Wednesday Volume 538 18 January 2012 No. 250

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 18 January 2012

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been in communication with the Minister of State, House of Commons Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk). Wednesday 18 January 2012 Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Figures The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock published yesterday by the TUC, based on Office for Budget Responsibility figures, estimate that between PRAYERS now and 2017 a further 40,000 public sector jobs will be lost in Wales. What is the Minister’s Department doing to stem those losses, and generally, what is the Department [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] doing to assist the economy of Wales?

Mr Jones: The right hon. Gentleman is right. The Oral Answers to Questions OBR figures project a loss of public sector jobs. At the same time the OBR figures predict that there will be a gain of some 1.7 million private sector jobs during the WALES same period. My Department is strongly engaged with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and The Secretary of State was asked— working closely to do all we can to ensure that the private sector grows in Wales. Claimant Count Mr Llwyd: The Secretary of State and the Minister 1. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): What steps the have heard the awful news about Peacocks. Surely billions Government are taking to reduce the claimant count in of pounds of taxpayers’ money was not pumped into Wales. [89232] the banks so that those same banks could now pull the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales plug on companies such as Peacocks. Will the Minister (Mr David Jones): The latest claimant count figures in and his right hon. Friend do everything they can to save Wales show some encouraging signs, but there is still the company? It is important for the whole UK, but much to do to ensure that the recession does not leave a vital for jobs in Wales. legacy of worklessness in Wales. The Government remain committed to creating the right conditions for the private Mr Jones: The right hon. Gentleman makes a very sector to grow and to create jobs in Wales. important point, which is quite correct. He will understand, I am sure, that these are early days in this unfortunate Chris Ruane: Some 46% of the workers in my saga. All I can do is assure him that our Department is constituency and 45% of the workers in the hon. liaising closely with the Department for Business, Innovation Gentleman’s constituency work in the public sector. and Skills to do all we can to ensure that those jobs, if The coalition Government’s theory is that as they sack possible, can be saved. public sector workers, the number of private sector jobs will increase and those sacked workers will be taken on. Inward Investment How many private sector jobs were created in the Minister’s constituency in the past six months and in my constituency, 2. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): What recent the Vale of Clwyd? discussions she has had with Ministers in the Welsh Government on inward investment in Wales. [89233] Mr Jones: The hon. Gentleman repeatedly raises the issue of public sector jobs in Wales, and he will know The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): that it is generally agreed that Wales is over-dependent I have had a range of meetings with Welsh Government on the public sector and under-dependent on the private Ministers and look forward to meeting the Welsh sector. The creation of private sector jobs is largely the Government Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology responsibility of the Welsh Assembly Government, of and Science on 6 February, when we plan to discuss, which his party is in control. among other things, inward investment. Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): The potential risk to jobs related to Peacocks is a worry to all in south Kevin Brennan: The right hon. Lady will know that Wales and well beyond, across the United Kingdom. RBS is blaming the lack of investors for its decision to What action can the Minister take with his colleagues pull the plug on a deal to save Peacocks, threatening here in Westminster and in co-ordination with the Welsh thousands of jobs. My constituents cannot understand Government? Will he pledge to do everything possible why they were expected to bail out RBS, but RBS is to help them find a funder to secure those jobs over the refusing to help them in their time of need, when their longer term? jobs are at risk. What is the right hon. Lady doing to talk to RBS about its responsibilities in this matter? Mr Jones: Yes, the issue of Peacocks is of great concern not just to Wales, but to the whole of the Mrs Gillan: The moment I heard about Peacocks, I United Kingdom. Some 10,000 people are employed by discussed it with the Secretary of State for Business, Peacocks. Already my right hon. Friend the Secretary Innovation and Skills, and the Welsh Assembly Business of State has been in communication with the Secretary Minister has spoken to the Minister of State, Department of State for Business, Innovation and Skills to discuss for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member the issue. I understand that the Welsh Minister for for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk). I have the greatest Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science has also sympathy. I have shopped in Peacocks myself and I 731 Oral Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 732 know how many jobs depend on it. It is important that Mrs Gillan: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. This we explore every possibility, but I am not going to stand is a very important company and there are many jobs to at the Dispatch Box, as the hon. Gentleman knows, and consider, as I have said before. I cannot say too often make false promises. We will look at what we can do for that we will look at doing all we can, but I cannot stand Peacocks, but it will involve the Welsh Government, as at the Dispatch Box and make false promises at this he well knows. stage before we have further and better particulars and we know the outcome of the current negotiations that are taking place between Peacocks and the banks. She Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): Does the Secretary of should be comforted by the fact that the Minister for State agree that inward investment played an important Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science in the part in the Welsh economy and could do so again, but Welsh Government, the Secretary of State for Business, to have an impact Westminster and Cardiff must work Innovation and Skills in our Government and I have all together? Is it not disappointing that the Welsh Assembly already been in contact on this matter. seems to be very reluctant to talk with UK Trade & Investment about providing growth for the Welsh economy? Sayce Review

Mrs Gillan: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I was 3. Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): If she will assess the disappointed to see that in an interview on this very effect on Wales of the implementation of the subject in an article in the Western Mail today no recommendations of the Sayce review on employment reference was made to working with the Department for services for disabled people. [89234] Business, Innovation and Skills and UKTI. I have always advocated team Wales and that we should be working The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for together. I was delighted to see that my noble Friend Wales (Mr David Jones): Public consultation on the Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint, who is responsible for recommendations of the Sayce report has closed. The UKTI, has opened an invitation to every MP to get Government are analysing the responses and will consider together with UKTI and host a seminar in the constituency, the implications for Wales and across the country before perhaps together with MPs from neighbouring publishing a statement on future policy. constituencies. That is a great innovation where we can all work together, whether it is the Welsh Government, Ian Lucas: Wrexham Remploy has made good progress Assembly Members, MPs or Members of this House. in the last four years in providing jobs for disabled people in the Wrexham and north-east Wales area, but Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): The worrying the Sayce review and its contents threaten Remploy, not news about Peacocks hangs especially over the constituency just in Wrexham but throughout Wales. Unfortunately, of my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, Brennan) where the headquarters stand, and the the hon. Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller), who constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd has responsibility for disabled people, refuses to give me (Owen Smith) with its distribution centre at Nantgarw, details of the financial position of Wrexham Remploy but the ramifications are felt right across the country, until the review is completed. Will the Minister please including in my own constituency where many travel to work with me to obtain those figures so that the 50 work in those centres, but also in retail centres such as people who are employed in my constituency will know in Maesteg. Will the Secretary of State directly intervene what their future is and know that the Government are and work to keep these 10,000 vital jobs, not least as the not threatening them? jobless number is now rising inexorably throughout the UK, the economy is flatlining and consumer confidence Mr Jones: The hon. Gentleman will know that the is plummeting? Sayce review made the commitment that existing employees in Remploy should be offered the opportunity of expert entrepreneurial and business support over a decent Mrs Gillan: The hon. Gentleman speaks powerfully, period of time to develop businesses, so the Sayce but he has been a Minister and knows that direct report shows commitment to Remploy. I hear what the intervention would not be appropriate until more hon. Gentleman says about his communications with investigations have been made as to the reasons for this my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary and if he would reported failure of Peacocks. Because so many jobs care to write to me, I will certainly pursue the matter. depend on this, if there are any redundancies or job losses, Jobcentre Plus would be there to provide individual Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): The way in which the support, as it has done in other instances. I assure him Government propose to abolish disability living allowance and all those beyond the Chamber whose jobs depend will take £105 million a year away from disabled people on Peacocks that this Government and the Welsh in Wales, money they desperately need to help them Government, and I am sure all of us together, will do cope with the extra costs of living with a disability, as what we can. the Secretary of State of all people should know. What meetings has she or the Minister had with disabled Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD): Given that up people in Wales on the Welfare Reform Bill, and how do to now Assembly Ministers have been very slow off the they intend to address people’s very real fears about it? mark to take action to help out with the terrible situation facing Peacocks, will the Secretary of State ensure that Mr Jones: The Government remain committed to Ministers at both ends of the M4 pull together to try to supporting disabled people and determined that that put pressure on the banks to ensure that we can save support should be targeted at those most impacted by this important Welsh company? their health condition or disability. As the hon. Lady 733 Oral Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 734 will know, the new personal independence payment will Allocation of Funds be objective, fair and strongly evidence-based and will enable accurate and consistent assessments of individuals 5. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): to determine who will benefit most from additional What recent assessment she has made of the effect of support. the autumn statement on the allocation of funds to the National Assembly for Wales. [89236] First Great Western The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): The autumn statement, and the subsequent written 4. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): What recent ministerial statement by the Chief Secretary to the discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Treasury, confirmed that the Welsh Government will Transport on the First Great Western franchise. [89235] receive an extra £238 million in Barnett consequentials. This additional money is an opportunity for the Welsh The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales Government to act in the areas they are responsible for (Mr David Jones): The Wales Office has regular discussions to ensure that Wales has a bright future. with the Department for Transport on a range of transport issues that affect Wales. Roger Williams: As a result of extra funding, the pupil deprivation fund, which was agreed to by the Kerry McCarthy: Does the Minister think that Welsh Government and Welsh Liberal Democrats, will electrification of the First Great Western line will boost mean that schools in Wales are better resourced, closing house prices along the route and, if so, would he advise the education funding gap between England and Wales. my constituents in Bristol and the good people of Wales For example, Maes-y-Dderwen school in my constituency perhaps to wait a while before selling their homes? will receive an extra £34,000 a year. Does the Secretary of State agree that this will help children and young Mr Jones: I am sure that the hon. Lady is in a better people in Wales after 13 years of Labour underfunding position to assess the impact of electrification on her in education? constituents than I am, but I would have thought that it is something that Members on both sides of the House Mrs Gillan: I agree with my hon. Friend, because it would welcome. was the extra funding from the Treasury to the Welsh Government that enabled the leader of the Welsh Liberal Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): The Minister Democrats in the Assembly to negotiate the extra funding will be aware that people in mid-Wales have campaigned for the pupil deprivation fund. That merely follows for a long time for a direct route from Aberystwyth to what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for London and an hourly service from Aberystwyth to Education has introduced in England. It is worth reflecting Shrewsbury. I encourage him to encourage others to that after 13 years of Labour government the spending take action on both fronts. gap between England and Wales remained at around £600 per pupil. Mr Jones: I hear what my hon. Friend says. He can be Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) assured that the Wales Office always does what it can to (PC): The signature policy of the recent autumn statement improve transport links within Wales. was the capital investment programme, which included provision to raise £25 billion of finance from pension Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): On the issue of funds. What discussions has the Secretary of State had railways, we have a great deal of sympathy with the with the Welsh Government and the Treasury to put in Secretary of State on why she felt the need to sell her place structures to ensure that Wales does not lose out? constituency home. Will she now take the opportunity to buy a home in Wales? Mrs Gillan: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the settlement on capital funding has been good for Wales. The additional Mr Jones: My right hon. Friend’s living arrangements moneys that were announced in the autumn financial are entirely a matter for her, and that has of course been statement have made a great difference to the way in positively vindicated by the letter my right hon. Friend which the Welsh Government are budgeting. I regularly the Prime Minister recently sent to the hon. Member for meet Welsh Government Ministers and colleagues in Hemsworth (Jon Trickett). the Treasury. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to know further and better particulars, I will ensure that we talk Mr Speaker: I remind the House that we are on the together from time to time about developments. subject of the First Great Western franchise. Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): On funding, why does Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): Some of the the new high-speed rail plan not follow the original cross-border services on the franchise run on the Cardiff route via a Heathrow hub, allowing south Wales travellers to Portsmouth line, which in places suffers from severe direct access to the airport and a direct connection to overcrowding, as experienced by my constituents in the network? Bradford on Avon. Will the Wales Office support our Mrs Gillan: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, that call for greater capacity on that cross-border route was the previous Labour Government’s route. Matters under the new franchise? concerning high-speed rail, HS2 and Wales are handled by the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, as he well Mr Jones: My hon. Friend might be aware that extra knows. I will arrange for my colleague to write to him. capacity is being provided this year, with an additional 48 carriages that will provide 4,500 extra seats at peak Mr Speaker: We are on the subject of funds to the times between London and south Wales. National Assembly. 735 Oral Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 736

Mr Hain: I find that reply astonishing. The right hon. Apprentices (Wales Office) Lady is Secretary of State for Wales. She has a duty, as has the whole of the Wales Office and as did her 7. Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): How many predecessors, to advance the interests of Wales. Is it not apprentices are employed in her Department. [89238] the truth that she failed to make the funding case for Wales on HS2 and we lost a great opportunity? Is it not the truth that she has spent the past 18 months demanding The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): expensive funding concessions for her Buckinghamshire I am delighted to say that despite having a small Department constituents, rather than advancing Wales’s funding of about 60 staff, two apprentices were recruited to the interests? Is it not the case that she has been more Wales Office last year. Both are doing very well and concerned with stopping trains, building tunnels and their teams are already impressed by their professional selling houses in her constituency than with supporting attitude and level of competence, as am I. investment, growth and jobs to benefit Wales? Robert Halfon: Will my right hon. Friend support the Mrs Gillan: I am surprised by the right hon. Gentleman, parliamentary apprentice school that I founded with because in all the years that he was Secretary of State the charity, New Deal of the Mind? Will she also for Wales, he did not achieve the electrification of one consider encouraging suppliers to the Wales Office to single inch, whereas we in the Wales Office have already hire apprentices? The Department for Work and Pensions announced the electrification of the line to Cardiff. is already doing that with great success and helping to Electrification of the line to Swansea is still open and reduce youth unemployment. that is unfinished business. As he well knows, we are now working on the electrification of the valleys line. I Mrs Gillan: I know of the great work that my hon. hope that I will have his support for that as well. Friend has been doing on apprenticeships. Although we [Interruption.] are a small Department, which relies on the Ministry of Justice for many of our services, I will do what I can to Mr Speaker: Order. There are far too many noisy ensure that our suppliers are encouraged to adopt similar private conversations taking place in the Chamber. I am practices. My hon. Friend might be pleased to know sure that the whole House will be united in wishing to that the Welsh Government recruited 24 new apprentices hear Mr Peter Bone. in 2010 and 66 in 2011. I will write to them to ask Human Trafficking whether they can ensure that their suppliers do what he suggests. 6. Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): What discussions she has had with the First Minister for Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Although I greatly Wales on cross-border human trafficking. [89237] I admire the work of my close comrade, the hon. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), is not there a (Mr David Jones): The Secretary of State met the anti- danger that apprenticeships that are essentially relabelled human trafficking co-ordinator for Wales in December. job creation and job experience schemes or internships, Combating human trafficking is a key priority for the without a job, skill or indentures at the end, are likely to Government and we fully recognise the importance of increase the cynicism and disillusionment among young tackling the issue in Wales. people? Mr Bone: I thank the Minister for that answer. Of Mrs Gillan: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be course, Bob Tooby is the tsar for human trafficking in pleased to know that, for example, all the apprentices at Wales. He has warned of the problem of internal trafficking, the Welsh Government undertake business administration both into Wales and out of Wales. Can this House learn NVQs and are recruited through fair and open competition something from Wales? Will the Minister recommend via their website, with support from Careers Wales and to the Prime Minister that we have a similar tsar for the Jobcentre Plus. That shows that the apprentice programmes rest of the United Kingdom? are equipping young people to take up jobs in the future. [Interruption.] Mr Jones: The Government are very supportive of the Welsh Government’s introduction of the anti-human trafficking co-ordinator for Wales. He works closely Mr Speaker: Order. The House must come to order. with the UK Human Trafficking Centre and I am sure We are discussing matters of intense interest, especially that he will make his own strong representations in that to the people of Wales. regard. Public Sector Employment Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): Does the Minister accept that there has long been concern about the staffing levels at Holyhead, which is the premier port 8. Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): What assessment between Ireland and Wales, and between Ireland and she has made of the likely change in levels of public the UK? Will he assure the House that immigration and sector employment in Wales in the period up to 2017. security staffing levels will be maintained at a proper [89239] level? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales Mr Jones: The hon. Gentleman makes an important (Mr David Jones): A forecast of public sector job losses point, which I raised in opposition. Holyhead is an was published last November by the Office for Budgetary extremely important port and the Wales Office co-ordinates Responsibility. It was based on UK-wide macro-economic closely with the Home Office on that issue. data and no regional breakdown is available. 737 Oral Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 738

Owen Smith: As we have heard this morning, it is not have, of course, been expressed about the Barnett formula, only public sector jobs that are at risk in Wales. Does but the priority now is to reduce the deficit, and any the Under-Secretary agree that the Peacocks jobs in changes to the system must happen once the public jeopardy in my constituency and throughout the country finances have been stabilised. are at risk largely because of the Government’s economic decisions to choke off consumer demand and raise Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): The Welsh Assembly VAT ? has funded the initial development of a motorsport complex in Blaenau Gwent. Will the Minister please Mr Jones: Of course, I share the hon. Gentleman’s ensure that the Government give every funding support concern about the plight of Peacocks. However, so far possible to get that project off the drawing board and as I can see from the reports that I have had to date, it is on to the track? nothing to do with the Government’s economic policy, Mr Jones: I commend the hon. Gentleman for the but everything to do with Peacocks’ banking arrangements. hard work he has done on that project. The Wales The Wales Office is intensely concerned about the matter Office is very interested in the matter and we will and will continue to express concern. continue to show interest. Small Businesses PRIME MINISTER 9. Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con): What support and advice her The Prime Minister was asked— Department provides to small businesses in Wales affected by non-payment for work undertaken. [89240] Engagements Q1. [90161] Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday I understand the effect that non-payment for work 18 January. undertaken can have on small businesses in Wales. The Government are determined to challenge the long-standing The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): This morning culture of late payment that persists across all sectors of I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others the economy and across businesses of all sizes. and, in addition to my duties in this House, I shall have further such meetings later today. Simon Hart: The Secretary of State will know about several sub-contractors working on the Pembroke power Mr Robertson: The Prime Minister will be aware of station who have not been paid because of a dispute the very strong uptake of academy status by schools in between the main contractors, Alstom and SOMI Impianti. Gloucestershire, but is he aware of the enormous difference Will she help me to put pressure on those companies to in funding that puts those schools at the bottom of the resolve their differences and get the sub-contractors league table in terms of LACSEG—local authority paid? central spend equivalent grant—funding? I welcome the Government’s move towards a national funding formula Mrs Gillan: I greatly sympathise with my hon. Friend’s but, in the meantime, will he look at the serious situation constituents. I have always supported the rights of of those schools in Gloucestershire? businesses on late payment of commercial debt. Back in 1994, I signed an early-day motion to that effect, so I The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is quite right. have been consistent in my support for a long time. I am We need to sort out this problem even before looking at happy to meet my hon. Friend to see whether there is a national funding formula. We inherited the funding anything I can do. formula that he describes, and I believe it is flawed, which is why we are reforming it. The Secretary of State Funding Formula for Education has met academy heads in my hon. Friend’s constituency and will happily discuss with him 10. David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): What how we can deal with this problem. The growing evidence recent discussions she has had with the Chancellor of is that academy schools are not just good for the pupils the Exchequer on the funding formula for Wales. who go to them, but by raising standards in those areas, [89241] they are actually raising standards of all schools at the same time. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): The Prime (Mr David Jones): My right hon. Friend and I have Minister told us that unemployment would fall in each regular discussions with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor year of this Parliament. Today, unemployment rose for of the Exchequer on issues affecting Wales. the sixth month in a row. Does he think that has anything to do with his Government? David Mowat: The Under-Secretary will know that the English regions and Wales lose out because the The Prime Minister: The Government take absolute block grant allocation is based not on need but on responsibility for everything that happens in our economy, Barnett. In the case of Wales, the loss is about £300 million and I take responsibility for that. Any increase in a year. What indication can the Government give us unemployment is disappointing, and it is obviously a that there will be reform? tragedy for the person who becomes unemployed and can lead to real difficulty for that family. That is why we Mr Jones: Governments of all political complexions are taking so much action to try and help people to get have recognised for many years the need for some parts back into work. Although the increase in unemployment of the UK to be funded differently from others. Concerns is hugely unwelcome, it is noteworthy that the figures 739 Oral Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 740 today show that there is still an increase in the number any form of scheme as not unemployed. This Government of people employed—another 18,000 are in work. That say that until they get a permanent job, we will measure shows that we need more private sector employment. them as unemployed. That is right. It is not complacent, We need to move further and faster on that agenda. it is frank, straightforward and what we never got from It is also noteworthy that there is a small decrease in Labour. long-term unemployment. I hope that shows that schemes such as the Work programme that the Government are Edward Miliband: It really is back to the 1980s—a introducing are beginning to have an effect, but again, Tory Government blaming unemployment on the figures. we need them to go further and faster. There is not one No wonder the Prime Minister has rehired Lord Young, ounce of complacency in this Government. We will do the Employment Secretary in the 1980s. everything we can to get people back to work. On long-term youth unemployment, the Prime Minister is wrong on the facts. Long-term youth unemployment, Edward Miliband: Does the Prime Minister not which has a scarring effect on our young people who are understand that when he boasts about rising employment, out of work and have been out of work for more than it just shows how out of touch he is? In some parts of six months, has doubled in the past year. However London, 100 people are chasing three vacancies. That is much he twists and turns about the figures, can he the situation people are facing. Can he confirm that confirm that central fact—that it is up by 102% in the under his policies, far from things getting better over past year? the coming year, he expects things to get worse and unemployment to rise to 2.8 million? The Prime Minister: I have explained the figures. If we look at the number of young people who have been The Prime Minister: Forecasts are no longer set out out of work for longer than 12 months, we see that it by the Government; they are set out by the independent has started to go down. That is not nearly enough, and Office for Budget Responsibility. Unlike in the right far more needs to be done, but that is what the Work hon. Gentleman’s day, these forecasts are not fixed and programme is all about. That is what the right hon. fiddled by Ministers, but set out by independent economists. Gentleman needs to understand. The Government’s responsibility is to do everything we There is a context to all this. If we want to get can to help people into work. That is why we have the unemployment down, we have got to keep interest rates Work programme, which is helping 3 million people; down, and we have had a reminder in recent days of why we have the youth contract, which will get subsidised, what happens if you do not have a plan to get on top of private sector jobs for 160,000 young people; and why your deficit, get on top of your debts and get your we have work experience for 250,000 young people. economy moving. That is what the right hon. Gentleman Half those are off benefits within two months, which is does not understand. 20 times better value than the future jobs fund. What we have is a Government who are absolutely As I have said, there is no boasting about anything. clear about their plans and an Opposition who have What we have here is growth in the private sector and absolutely no idea. Last year the right hon. Gentleman contraction in the public sector, but we need to get our marched against the cuts, now he tells us that he accepts economy moving. Key to that is having the low interest the cuts, yet today he is telling us that he wants to spend rates that the right hon. Gentleman’s plans would put at more and borrow more. He is so incompetent that he risk. cannot even do a U-turn properly.

Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister does not seem Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister is simply— to understand. The reason why the OBR figures matter [Interruption.] is that they show that over the next year, unemployment will get worse, not better, under his policies. Nothing Mr Speaker: Order. The House must try to calm that he can say can deny that. That long list of policies, down and contain itself. according to the independent OBR, will make no difference. Edward Miliband: I know that the Prime Minister Let us talk about young people. Can the Prime Minister does not want to talk about the young people out of confirm that in the past year, we now have 147,000 work in this country, because he is embarrassed by his young people out of work for more than six months? record on what is happening, but he owes it to them to That is double what it was a year ago—an increase of tell the facts as they are about what is happening to 102%. Why has he allowed it to happen? them. I come back to this point: the Prime Minister said in his answer that long-term unemployment among The Prime Minister: Let me give the right hon. Gentleman young people is going down. It is not going down; it is the figures. Over the past year, unemployment among going up. young people, measured by the independent labour The Prime Minister mentions the Work programme, organisation—the proper way of measuring the figures—is which he introduced with a great fanfare in June. What up by 7%. That is far too high. It is not the 40% increase has happened to long-term youth unemployment since that we had under Labour, but it is far too high. What he introduced his Work programme? we need to do is help those young people into work, and that is exactly what our programmes are doing. The Prime Minister: Let me give the right hon. Gentleman Let me just make this point, because I think it is the figures. [Interruption.] I will give him the figures important. There is a fundamental difference between exactly. There are far too many young people who are the way this Government measure youth unemployment long-term unemployed. There are 246,000 young people and the way the last Government did. That is important, who have been unemployed for more than a year, but because the right hon. Gentleman’s Government counted that is down 11,000 on the last quarter. That is not young people who were on jobseeker’s allowance and in enough, and we want to do more, but it is because we 741 Oral Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 742 have the Work programme, the youth contract, 400,000 Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): With the tragic apprenticeships and 250,000 people going into work accident involving the cruise ship Costa Concordia and experience that we are making a difference. Why does he the 50-plus liners of the same size or bigger that will not come up with something constructive instead of visit Greenock dock on the Clyde in the coming months just knocking everybody down? and year ahead, does the Prime Minister still think that it was the correct decision to close the Clyde coastguard Edward Miliband: I will tell him what he should do: station? he should change course. It is his policy. Why is unemployment rising? It is rising because he is cutting The Prime Minister: First, the case in Italy is clearly a too far and too fast. It is his record. However much he tragic one, and our hearts should go out to the people twists and turns, it is his record. That is why unemployment who have lost loved-ones—people from countries right is rising. Unemployment among women is the highest across the world. We need to wait and see what the exact since the last time there was a Tory Government; youth cause of the accident was before we jump to conclusions unemployment is the highest since the last time there about any changes to regulations or other things. However, was a Tory Government; and unemployment is higher if changes need to be made, including on the issue that than the last time there was a Tory Government. Is not the hon. Gentleman raises, of course we will make them. the defining characteristic of this Government that they stand aside and do nothing as thousands of people find themselves unemployed? Q3. [90163] Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): The Prime Minister has kindly undertaken to The Prime Minister: To be fair to the right hon. introduce a comprehensive water Bill early in the next Gentleman, he changes course every day; he is an expert parliamentary Session. Will he end the uncertainty for at changing course. Labour’s shadow Chancellor said water customers and the industry alike by publishing two days ago: the draft Bill now, so that we can have proper “My starting point is…we are going to have to keep all these parliamentary scrutiny? cuts.” Then Labour’s deputy leader said yesterday that The Prime Minister: We will publish a draft water Bill “we’re not accepting the Government’s…cuts, we are totally for pre-legislative scrutiny in the coming months. As my opposing them and we’re fighting them.” hon. Friend knows, there are many important parts to The right hon. Gentleman is flip-flopping on a daily the water Bill. One that stands out is the promise that basis. It is no wonder that the founder of Labour’s we have made and the funding that we have supplied to business forum had this to say: help cut water bills in the south-west of our country by “At a time when the nation needs strong political leadership, £50 from April 2013. That addresses a historical unfairness: Labour offers nothing…the pro-business, pragmatic approach to people in the south-west feel that they have paid unfair wealth and enterprise” charges to provide clean beaches for many of us who do have all gone. not live in the south-west. I am delighted that we can “Instead there is a vision and leadership vacuum.” make progress on this issue. What total adequate testimony to what stands opposite! Q4. [90164] Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): In Q2. [90162] Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North America, six directors from the bailed-out Freddie Mac Hykeham) (Con): My right hon. Friend will be aware and Fannie Mae companies have been taken to court that I recently raised the case of my late constituent, for gross mismanagement. In this country, the Mr Martin Pratt, with the armed forces Minister. He Financial Services Authority says that it cannot bring will also be aware of the excellent “Fighting Fit” enforcement action against Royal Bank of Scotland report, written by my hon. Friend the Member for because of the ongoing legal tender. Will the Prime South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), dealing with Minister consider introducing a legal sanction of strict post-traumatic stress disorder among veterans. Owing liability into his draft Financial Services Bill so that to the stigma often attached to mental illness, many those responsible for the banking crisis will be taken to veterans wait years before seeking appropriate help, task? After all, we are in this together. and I hope that my right hon. Friend can tell the House what plans the Government have in this area, so that those who need help can seek it at the appropriate The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes an moment. important point. The whole point about overhauling our financial services regulation is that it gives us the The Prime Minister: My hon. and learned Friend is opportunity to look around the rest of the world, see entirely right to raise this issue. The mental scars that who has tougher penalties and work out whether we people who serve this country often receive can be every can introduce them to our system. That is why we will bit as deep as the physical scars. It is not something that be introducing this Bill, with a major overhaul of how we have always accepted and understood properly, which the Financial Services Authority and the Bank of England is why the report, “Fighting Fit”, by my hon. Friend the work, and dealing with the regulatory system that was Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), is so not working properly. important. He has real experience and understanding of this matter. We have accepted and implemented Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): A year ago the Prime almost all its recommendations—we have launched the Minister told me that the reason for the, at the time, new 24-hour combat stress support health line, we are Health and Social Care Bill was introducing the advanced mental health assessments for “simply that this country now has European levels of health service personnel and we hope to get the veterans spending but does not have European levels of success”.—[Official information service up and running in April this year. Report, 19 January 2011; Vol. 521, c. 831.] 743 Oral Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 744

Now that we know that that is not the case, will the The Prime Minister: I do not accept what the hon. Prime Minister shelve this disruptive and destructive Gentleman says. The whole point about employment Bill, which is struggling in another place, go back to the and support allowance is that there are two groups. coalition agreement and build from there? There are those who cannot work who need help, in the support group. Many people will go straight into that The Prime Minister: I have great respect for my hon. group and will be able to receive that benefit for as long Friend, but I do not agree with him on this one. With as they need it. If he looks at what we have said, and the Health and Social Care Bill, a huge exercise was looks at the report by Professor Harrington, he will see undertaken, in which the Deputy Prime Minister and I that there are going to be more cancer sufferers getting both played quite a large role, of actually listening to benefits and, actually, fewer people facing the face-to-face health professionals—to doctors, nurses and associated interview. He shakes his head; he should look at the health professionals—to understand what they most evidence before asking the question. wanted to see in the NHS reform Bill, and that is what we are delivering. My hon. Friend says that it is not the Q7. [90167] Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I was shocked to case that we have outcomes that are less than some discover that mainstream terrestrial television carries parts of Europe; I am afraid it is the case. In some cases adverts for online bingo at 5 o’clock in the afternoon we could be doing a lot better. To argue just that the and that 31 hours and 55 minutes each week is NHS simply needs money and not reform, I do not dedicated to live casino betting and gaming, which has believe is right. been classified as teleshopping since 2009. At a time when there is £1.45 trillion of personal debt in this country and when we are encouraging people to be Q5. [90165] Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne moderate in their expectations and behaviour, will the North) (Lab): In the north-east, unemployment Prime Minister please protect consumers, children and among women is rising at twice the rate as that among the vulnerable from this kind of activity by asking for a men. Where does the Prime Minister think a woman’s review by Ofcom— place is: in the home, in the workplace or in the jobcentre? Mr Speaker: Order. The question was too long.

The Prime Minister: I want many more women to The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady raises an important have the opportunity to be in the workplace. What we issue about gambling advertisement on television. I am have seen in the figures is this. Of course there is a all in favour of deregulation and trying to allow businesses disappointing increase in unemployment among women, to get on and succeed. Gambling programmes and but if we look since the election, there are 59,000 more betting advertising were not permitted until the last women in work today than at the time of the last Government allowed them in 2007 and they are strictly election. However, I am not satisfied with that. That is regulated by Ofcom and the Advertising Standards why we are boosting child care for two-year-olds, three- Authority. It is not just a question of regulation, as it is year-olds and four-year-olds to help women into work. also a question of responsibility by the companies We are introducing, through universal credit, support concerned. Anyone who enjoys watching a football with child care for all women who work, not just those match will see quite aggressive advertisements on the who work over 16 hours. Lifting more than 1 million television, and I think companies have to ask themselves people out of tax, the majority of whom are women, whether they are behaving responsibly when they do obviously also helps women into the work force. That is that. what I want to see. Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ Co-op): On the subject of gambling, Hackney has Q6. [90166] Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): Last week 90 bookies—three times the national average. Will the I met a couple in Redditch who were appalled that a Prime Minister listen to the debate that took place family in their area were getting more on benefits than yesterday and take action this Friday and instruct his they were earning working full time. Does the Prime Ministers to support the private Member’s Bill that will Minister think that is right or fair? be before the House and will give local authorities more planning powers over bookies? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important point. Let me say this about the benefit cap. We owe it The Prime Minister: I will certainly look at the debate to people who work hard, do the right thing and pay the hon. Lady mentions and the ideas expressed in it. their taxes to make sure there are some limits on welfare. We are all for localism and giving local authorities What we are saying with the benefit cap is that a family greater powers in these sorts of regards. I will look at can get up to £26,000 in benefit. You would have to earn the suggestion she makes. £35,000 in order to achieve that standard of living, so I Q8. [90168] Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): Does believe that the benefit is fair, and that is why we are the Prime Minister agree with me that in this the going to introduce one. 30-year anniversary of the Falklands war the actions of the Argentine Government are wholly deplorable? Will Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Does the he remind Argentina that it lost the Falklands war and Prime Minister feel any shame at all that some of the that it is up to the Falklanders to determine their own most vulnerable people in our society—certainly cancer future? and heart patients—will undoubtedly be financially penalised as a result of the measures going through the The Prime Minister: First of all, it is very important Lords? Is it any wonder that people say that it is the that we commemorate the Falklands war this year—the same old Tories and that the Tories are the nasty party? 30th anniversary—and remember all those who served 745 Oral Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 746 and fought so hard and some who gave their lives and particular, as I have said, it affects our training programmes did not come home. We should remember all those for junior doctors, often in rural areas where we do not people this year. The absolutely vital point is that we are have such large hospitals. What we can do to sort this clear that the future of the Falkland islands is a matter out? The Health and Business Secretaries are committed for the people themselves. As long as they want to to revising the directive at EU level to give the NHS the remain part of the United Kingdom and be British, flexibility it needs to deliver the best and safest service they should be able to do so. That is absolutely key. I am to patients. We will work urgently to bring that about. determined to make sure that our defences and everything else are in order, which is why the National Security Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): Is the Prime Council discussed the issue yesterday. The key point is Minister aware that, since I have been an MP, every that we support the Falkland islanders’ right to self- single medical problem at a hospital in my constituency determination. I would argue that what the Argentinians is related to weekend working by exhausted junior have said recently is far more like colonialism, as these doctors. Far from being a problem, the directive is a people want to remain British and the Argentinians solution: we have had far too many exhausted doctors want them to do something else. in charge of patients.

Q9.[90169]NickSmith(BlaenauGwent)(Lab):Blaenau The Prime Minister: I do not doubt—in fact, I do Gwent has seen a rise in unemployment today to more doubt what the right hon. Gentleman says. I cannot than 3,000—a 16% increase in the past year. When believe that every problem in his hospital is down to this does the Prime Minister expect unemployment to start one issue. All I can say is that the local hospital that falling? serves my constituents in Chipping Norton was threatened with massive downgrading partly because, under the The Prime Minister: The forecast is set out by the working time directive, it could not supply the training Office for Budget Responsibility and it is for it to make modules for junior doctors. That seemed a classic example the forecasts—and it expects unemployment to be lower of the cart being put in front of the horse. We ought to at the end of this Parliament than at the start, and determine what hospitals we want, and then think about employment to be higher. The Government’s job is to the training modules, but the EU working time directive try to do everything they can to help the hon. Gentleman’s was getting in the way. constituents into work—via the Work programme, the youth contract, the apprenticeship schemes and work experience, but above all, by keeping interest rates low, Engagements so our economy can grow and we do not fall into the mistakes that others in Europe have. Q11. [90171] David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): I welcome this week’s announcement of closer European Working Time Directive co-operation between financial centres in Hong Kong and London, which will help to make the City a hub Q10. [90170] Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) for the Chinese renminbi currency market. Does the (Con): What recent assessment he has made of the Prime Minister agree that that helps to highlight the effect of the European working time directive on (a) opportunities for trade in Asia and the importance of doctors’ training and (b) patient care within the NHS. promoting this country’s commitment to free trade, and shows that this country is open for business? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend raises an important issue about the working time directive and its effect on The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a vital the NHS. Nobody wants to go back to the time when point. Clearly, the markets in Europe are going to be junior doctors were working 80 or 90 hours a week, but difficult: 50% of our exports go to the EU, and we are I think we all see in our constituencies that the working seeing a freezing effect across the European Union. The time directive has sometimes had a bad effect on the rest of the world economy, however, is growing, and we NHS, particularly on training programmes for junior need to get out there and sell to those markets. I am doctors. That is why the Government are discussing this pleased to say that exports to China were up by 20% last issue with the Royal Colleges and others to make sure year. The arrangement that my right hon. Friend the that we can have flexibility in this vital area. Chancellor has come to, which will make London one of the great renminbi trading centres, is an important Charlotte Leslie: I thank the Prime Minister for his breakthrough, but we need many more like that. answer. Does he share the widespread concern coming largely from the medical professions themselves that while we wait for lengthy EU processes to reconsider Q12. [90172] Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire the directive across Europe—and it has not even been North) (Lab): Will the Prime Minister clarify the decided what it is that they are going to discuss—we are position of the coalition Government on inheritance seeing a critical undermining of junior doctors, as they tax? My constituency recently received correspondence often say themselves, an erosion of the future from the junior partner in the coalition Government, professionalism of the NHS and, dare I say it, we are stating: putting patient care and patient lives at risk? What steps “If the Tories were governing alone, they would be cutting inheritance can the Prime Minister take to ensure that we sort this tax for millionaires and they would pay for it by reducing public out quickly? spending even more.” Is that true? The Prime Minister: I think my hon. Friend is right. Frankly, this has nothing to do with the single market; The Prime Minister: The position on inheritance tax it is to do with how we run our health service. In is covered in the coalition agreement. 747 Oral Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 748

Q13. [90173] Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): Last Abu Qatada cannot be deported? If so, will the right week, on the Syrian border, I met Syrian army hon. Gentleman agree to initiate all-party discussions deserters who had refused to kill their fellow citizens, focused not on rhetoric about ripping up the Human and a small child wounded by that regime. If things Rights Act but on how, in practice, the Court could there are to get better, not worse, the world must stop operate more proportionately, so that rights are respected selling arms to Syria. What evidence does the Prime but the safety of the public is always paramount? Minister have of countries shipping arms to that regime? The Prime Minister: I agree wholeheartedly with what the right hon. Gentleman has said. I think that the The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an extremely judgment is difficult to understand, because British important point. Britain needs to lead the way in making Governments—both the present Government and the sure that we tighten the sanctions, travel bans and asset one in which the right hon. Gentleman served—have freezes on Syria. On who is helping the Syrian Government gone to huge efforts to establish a “deportation with to oppress their people, there is growing evidence that assurances” agreement with Jordan to ensure that people Iran is providing a huge amount of support. Some are not mistreated. In this case, the European Court of shipment interceptions by Turkey are particularly interesting Human Rights found that Abu Qatada was not going in that regard. People should also know that Hezbollah to be tortured but was worried about the process of the is also an organisation that is standing up and supporting court case in Jordan. It is immensely frustrating. the wretched tyrant who is killing so many of his own people. I think that a country such as Britain, which has such a long tradition of human rights, should be able to Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ deport people who mean us harm. That principle is Co-op): The Prime Minister will no doubt be aware of a vitally important, and we are not just going to have report from international aid agencies this morning strong rhetoric about it. I am going to Strasbourg next saying how the crisis in the horn of Africa was made week to argue that as we are chairing the Council of worse by the delay in the international community Europe, this is a good time to make reforms to the responding. It warned that a similar crisis is threatening ECHR and ensure that it acts in a more proportionate in west Africa. What will the Government do to try to way. ensure a speedier international response? Q15. [90175] Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman raises an On 26 March 2010, a two-and-a-half-year-old boy important point, and I will study the report carefully. named Jobe Felton was kidnapped from his home in My understanding is that the British aid effort was swift Cannock Chase and taken to Thailand by his mother. at getting aid into the horn of Africa and was leading Six months later, his father finally tracked him down in the pack, both in the extent—the money committed—and a remote village. He found that his son could not speak, speed of the response. Clearly, the horn of Africa is a had had his teeth broken, and had bruises all over his very difficult place to deliver aid to, not least because of body. He believes that had he not got him back then, the control al-Shabaab—in effect, a terrorist Jobe would have been sold. Each year in the United organisation—has in large parts of Somalia. I will look Kingdom, more than 500 children are kidnapped in carefully at what he says about west Africa, and I will similar circumstances. Will the Prime Minister meet me ensure that we learn any available lessons. and Jobe’s father, Sean Felton—who has set up a charity called Abducted Angels, and who is in the Q14. [90174] Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): Gallery today—to discuss what the Government can On 26 October, I raised the case of my constituent, do to help parents of abducted children like Jobe? 14-year-old Lillian Groves, who was killed outside her home by a driver under the influence of drugs. The The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely Prime Minister kindly met her family to talk about the right to raise that case. It is a simply appalling case, and case, which I believe has support across the House, for any parent cannot help being chilled to the bone about changing the law to deal with the menace of what happened to that poor boy. drug-driving. Will my right hon. Friend update the House on progress? I think it is vital for us to put in place the best possible arrangements. As my hon. Friend knows, the The Prime Minister: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre is to work on this issue. It is important that we take seriously be part of the National Crime Agency. I very much the issue of drug-driving. As he knows, we are committed hope that we shall be able to legislate for the agency and to making the drug-testing equipment available for use ensure that it is properly resourced, because—as my in police stations as soon as possible. The case that he is hon. Friend says—it is vitally important that when making, which is that we need an equivalent law to that these appalling acts happen, we get on top of them right for drink-driving, has great strength. The Government away. Early effort is absolutely vital to saving these are examining that case closely. Clearly, we need to look children. at whether there will be an opportunity in the second legislative Session to take forward the measure, which I Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): When does the know he will be campaigning for hard. Prime Minister expect to be cross-examined by the Leveson inquiry? Does he not agree that the British Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): people deserve an answer to the question of why he Does the Prime Minister share my concern at yesterday’s appointed one of Murdoch’s top lieutenants, Andy ruling by the European Court of Human Rights that Coulson, to the heart of the British Government? 749 Oral Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 750

The Prime Minister: I shall be delighted to appear Several hon. Members rose— before the Leveson inquiry whenever I am invited, and I am sure that other politicians will have exactly the Mr Speaker: Order. We now come to the statement by same view. I shall answer all the questions when that the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice, happens. Mr Secretary Clarke. Before the right hon. and learned Gentleman begins his statement, I appeal to Members It is good to see the hon. Gentleman on such good who, unaccountably, are leaving the Chamber—who, form. I often say to my children, “There is no need to go for some reason, do not wish or are not available to hear to the National History museum to see a dinosaur; the right hon. and learned Gentleman—to do so quickly come to the House of Commons at about half past and quietly, so that the rest of us can listen to the twelve.” statement. 751 18 JANUARY 2012 Detainee Inquiry 752

Detainee Inquiry however, that the detainee inquiry would not be able to start formally until all related police investigations had 12.34 pm been concluded. Last week, the Director of Public Prosecutions and The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice the Metropolitan Police Service made a joint statement (Mr Kenneth Clarke): With permission, Mr Speaker, I that they would not charge any named individuals in wish to make a statement. the Security Service and Secret Intelligence Service in This Government stand firmly against torture and relation to the investigations in Operations Hinton and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment or punishment. Iden. However, they also announced that allegations We do not condone it, nor do we ask others to do it on made in two specific cases concerning the alleged rendition our behalf. In July 2010, the Prime Minister announced of named individuals to Libya and their alleged ill-treatment a package of measures to this House designed to deal there were so serious that it was in the public interest for with allegations about British involvement in the them to be investigated now rather than at the conclusion mistreatment of detainees held by other states overseas. of the Gibson detainee inquiry.I made a written ministerial As he told the House then, those allegations are not statement on Monday this week explaining that the proven, but their consequences are serious. In his words: Government were considering the implications for the “Our reputation as a country that believes in human rights, detainee inquiry of these new police investigations. justice, fairness and the rule of law—indeed, much of what the The Government will continue to co-operate fully services exist to protect—risks being tarnished. Public confidence with the police and the Crown Prosecution Service in is being eroded, with people doubting the ability of our services to protect us and questioning the rules under which they operate.”— their investigations, and we remain committed to drawing [Official Report, 6 July 2010; Vol. 513, c. 175.] a line under these issues. As part of this process, the No one should be in any doubt about the vital nature agencies will continue to review their records, and we of the work that our security and intelligence agencies will ensure that this process is thorough and comprehensive. perform on our behalf or the debt that they are owed by We and the agencies are absolutely clear that where all of us. Without public recognition, the men and there are any questions about knowledge of improper women of the services take the gravest personal risks to treatment of detainees, they must be fully examined protect the security of our country. So in his statement and, where necessary, investigated. Looking to the future, 18 months ago the Prime Minister set out a package of we will carefully review the responses to the Green measures designed to ensure not just that we can get to Paper about the oversight of the agencies. the bottom of allegations of mistreatment, but that we However, these further police investigations into the learn any lessons, improve the framework for litigation Libyan allegations may take some considerable time to where sensitive material is involved, and enable our conclude. The Government fully intend to hold a judge-led security and intelligence services to get on with their inquiry into these issues, once it is possible to do so and vital job. all related police investigations have been concluded. Since July 2010 the Government have taken a number But there now appears no prospect of the Gibson of steps to fulfil this commitment. We have published inquiry being able to start in the foreseeable future. So, for the first time the consolidated guidance for intelligence following consultation with Sir Peter Gibson, the chair officers and service personnel on dealing with foreign of the inquiry, we have decided to bring the work of his liaison services regarding detainees held in their custody, inquiry to a conclusion. We have agreed with Sir Peter to make clear the basis on which our security and that the inquiry should provide the Government with a intelligence services operate. We have also secured a report on its preparatory work to date, highlighting mediated settlement of the Guantanamo Bay civil damages particular themes or issues which might be the subject cases, about which I made a statement to this House on of further examination. The Government are clear that 16 November 2010. I also made a statement to this as much of this report as possible will be made public. House on 19 October 2011 on the publication of the We will continue to keep Parliament fully informed of Government’s Green Paper on justice and security, which progress. The Government fully intend to hold an aims to improve our courts’ ability to handle intelligence independent, judge-led inquiry, once all police investigations and other sensitive material and to strengthen the have concluded, to establish the full facts and draw a Parliamentary and independent bodies that oversee the line under these issues. Meanwhile, however, the police security and intelligence services. We will set out our inquiries that have now commenced must obviously response to the consultation on the Green Paper in due continue. I commend this statement to the House. course. 12.41 pm We also established an inquiry under Sir Peter Gibson to examine whether, and if so to what extent, the Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): I thank the Secretary of British Government and their intelligence agencies were State for advance sight of his statement. The whole involved in the improper treatment of detainees held by House unequivocally condemns torture, and inhumane, other countries in counter-terrorism operations overseas, cruel and degrading forms of punishment. We must not or were aware of improper treatment of detainees in condone it or ask others to do so on our behalf. One of operations in which the United Kingdom was involved. the marks of a civilised society is that we will do Since then, the Gibson inquiry has been in a preparatory everything in our power to champion human rights, phase, with the panel focusing on a review of key both at home and abroad, and that we will properly underlying material. The inquiry has had the full investigate, prosecute and punish those alleged to have co-operation of Departments and agencies during its committed such crimes in this country or on behalf of preparations and has received a large volume of material this country elsewhere across the globe. So, allegations in response to its requests for information, which it is in that members of our security and intelligence services the process of considering. We have always been clear, may be involved in the improper treatment of detainees 753 Detainee Inquiry18 JANUARY 2012 Detainee Inquiry 754 held by other countries, with acts that contravene these respect, it is not even fair to the team to keep things basic levels of human decency that we hold so dear as a going on in that way. I had hoped to be able to come to nation, need proper and full investigation. the House and say, if anyone asked me, that the Gibson The investigations in Operations Hinton and Iden inquiry was now under way, that it was starting its relate to serious and highly sensitive matters involving, proceedings and that all was going smoothly. We now as they do, allegations about members of the Security have to wait for an as yet unknown period of time while Service and the Secret Intelligence Service. Operation the Libyan investigations are carried out and while we Hinton followed a referral from the former Attorney- see where they go. The Metropolitan police took three General, my right hon. and learned Friend Baroness years to look into the Guantanamo Bay cases and I Scotland, in November 2008 and Operation Iden followed think everybody is anxious that we should be quicker a referral, also by the former Attorney-General, in June than that as we look at the Libyan cases, but we have no 2009. These independent investigations concluded on idea how long it will take. 12 January this year, as has been said, with a decision Sir Peter and his colleagues have done some work not to charge any named individuals in relation to the and the sensible thing is to publish the outcome of their investigations in Operations Hinton and Iden. preparatory work now, wait to see what happens to Our security and intelligence agencies perform vital the investigations and to set up an independent judge-led work on our behalf and we owe them a debt. Without inquiry as soon as it is feasible, which might require public recognition, the men and women of these services a fresh team of people to carry it out. We have the take the gravest personal risks to protect the security of terms of reference for Gibson because we think the our country. But it is clearly right that, in the light of Gibson inquiry itself should not take too long and I the further, specific allegations of ill-treatment made have discussed the terms of reference with NGOs, recently, the Metropolitan Police Service and the Crown representatives of former detainees and so on. I will Prosecution Service investigate these thoroughly.Although quite happily continue those conversations and I have it was also right that the inquiry led by Sir Peter Gibson been trying to persuade them that the Gibson inquiry was put on hold while investigations into criminal meets their needs and that they should actively proceedings were ongoing, I would ask the Justice Secretary participate and engage in the process. I will continue why he has decided not to have a further hold in Sir that and I will listen to their views, too, about the nature Peter Gibson’s inquiry while these further investigations of the inquiry. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman are carried out. It is also important that the pause is and those outside the House who have an interest that used as an opportunity to ensure that the former detainees the Government will hold an independent judge-led and the human rights and campaign groups who chose inquiry. We are where we are, and the Gibson proposals not to engage in the Sir Peter Gibson inquiry are are our proposals. brought back into the fold. May I ask the Justice Secretary what his views are on Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): As a the representations made by those acting on behalf of member of the Intelligence and Security Committee, the detainees, non-governmental organisations and others may I endorse the observations made by my right hon. that an inquiry conducted with the current terms of and learned Friend and by the shadow Justice Secretary reference and protocol does not comply with articles 3 about the contribution that the security services make and 6 of the European convention on human rights? It to the security of the nation? When the Gibson inquiry is clearly important that any inquiry has legitimacy, and was first conceived, the hope was expressed that it I invite the Justice Secretary to use the period while the might complete its work within one year. As events have allegations are being investigated by the police to work subsequently proved, that prognosis was rather optimistic. with ourselves, NGOs and other experts to ensure that May I say to my right hon. and learned Friend that I the new inquiry has as much legitimacy as is possible. I think that he has inevitably had to bow to the changed also ask the Secretary of State when and how he intends circumstances and that his announcement today is entirely the work of Sir Peter Gibson, or as much as is realistically sensible and will preserve all the issues that would possible, to be published. otherwise have been dealt with by the Gibson inquiry? The key point is that we must get to the bottom of Mr Clarke: I am grateful to the right hon. and what happened. We are firmly of the view that there learned Gentleman. The point that lies behind the must be an independent inquiry as the quicker these debate I have been having with NGOs and detainee questions are answered, the quicker we will be able to representatives about the terms of reference is that our draw a line under these issues. aim would be that the judge-led inquiry might conclude within a year. We do not want an inquiry that takes Mr Kenneth Clarke: I am grateful to the right hon. years and years and becomes too legalistic. We are still Gentleman for his broad support for the aims we are open to discussions about that, but the right hon. and pursuing. I agree with everything he said about the learned Gentleman obviously shares my view that it security services and I think we owe it to them, as well would be much better if we were able to get things as to the reputation of this country, to draw a line under under way and hold this inquiry. I am grateful for his these matters as quickly as possible, which involves support for the inevitability of holding fire and getting investigating them all properly and making the position Sir Peter to produce what he has done so far. clear as well as considering matters such as the supervision of the services in future. Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): Sir Peter Gibson The right hon. Gentleman asked why we did not have is a retired senior judge of the highest integrity and skill just another pause in the Gibson inquiry, as we were and I am personally quite certain that had he had the previously just waiting for the outcome of the police opportunity to continue this inquiry, he and his colleagues inquiries into the Guantanamo Bay cases. With great on the panel would have been able to do a most thorough 755 Detainee Inquiry18 JANUARY 2012 Detainee Inquiry 756

[Mr Jack Straw] jeopardising national security. The second concerned the important matter that she raises of the supervision job and would have gained the confidence of the NGOs by this House and elsewhere of the security services. and others in the course of that inquiry in exactly the same way as Sir William Macpherson, who was faced Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): I welcome with a high degree of scepticism when he first began the my right hon. and learned Friend’s approach to this Lawrence inquiry, was able to assuage the concerns of matter. Does it remain his hope that at the end of this many of those involved in the course of the proceedings. process we can avoid the situation that arose in the May I also say to the right hon. and learned Gentleman previous Parliament when my hon. Friend the Member that I believe that he is absolutely right to do what he for Chichester (Mr Tyrie) and others were reassured has and that in practice he has had no alternative? over and again on the Floor of the House that there was no United Kingdom involvement in any respect with Mr Clarke: I am grateful for that view and for the any extraordinary rendition, which subsequently turned right hon. Gentleman’s support because I keep trying to out not to be the case? assure people that there is no conspiracy here. The Government actually want these things to be properly Mr Clarke: Like my hon. Friend, I was a member of investigated and want the full facts to be shared with the the all-party group on extraordinary rendition being led general public so far as they sensibly can be, consistent by my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie), with the interests of national security. so I was as anxious to see the outcome of the police and other inquiries as everybody else. The whole point is to Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): It was widely dispel all this because we must have an effective national held that the Gibson inquiry’s approach to the investigation security system and effective agencies. People who work set out in the protocol and in the interpretation of the in those agencies do very brave work that is essential to terms of reference was defective in a number of important this country. We must draw a line under all this and respects. I have brought those to the attention of the investigate fully this legacy of allegations in order to Government already and have discussed them in find out exactly what happened and work out how to correspondence with the Prime Minister, as my right proceed and how to scrutinise the services in future. hon. and learned Friend will know. In particular, there was no intention to cover detainee transfer in theatre Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): The Justice Secretary and no intention to appoint an investigator or even to clearly has the support of both sides of the House in the try to investigate all the cases of credible allegations decision he has taken today. Could he clarify whether brought forward. Will my right hon. and learned Friend this was his decision or whether Sir Peter came to him undertake to review fully all these aspects of the Gibson and asked to be relinquished of his responsibilities in inquiry’s proposed work so that we can rectify these view of the fresh investigations? I know that the Justice defects when an inquiry reconvenes? Secretary cannot give us a timetable, but does he envisage this lasting for months or years? Mr Clarke: I will continue the conversations I have been having with my hon. Friend and others about the Mr Clarke: It was discussed with Sir Peter Gibson basis on which the Gibson inquiry is proceeding. I have and he agrees that this is the way to proceed. I did not been trying to persuade people to be more co-operative personally have the conversation, but in the light of last with the Gibson inquiry, but I am also quite happy to week’s inquiry it was decided that it was sensible to listen to points that people make to me about why they discuss this with Sir Peter and he agrees with the decision have reservations. The Government wanted to proceed we have taken to proceed in this way. I wish I knew how with the Gibson inquiry on the present terms of reference long the Metropolitan police investigations will take. I and would have done so if we had not had this final hope that they will not take as long as the Guantanamo delay. We have more time to consider the matter, although Bay cases, but there is absolutely no basis on which I we did not want more time, and I am happy to discuss can properly intervene with the police. We want these these matters with my hon. Friend and others again. matters to be investigated thoroughly so we will wait and see. Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): Our intelligence agencies do a hugely important job for this country, but Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): It looks it is essential that they operate and are seen to operate increasingly clear that this is going to take years rather within the highest standards of human rights ethics and than months. Can my right hon. and learned Friend a proper legal framework. Does the Secretary of State assure me that in the intervening time he will take agree that it is essential in the current circumstances to particular care in defining the terms of reference on the take forward his proposals in the Green Paper on justice Libyan dimension, which in my opinion is much wider and security to strengthen the role of the Intelligence than just rendition? What about, for example, the training and Security Committee so that we can have the legal of Libyan forces at the defence academy at Shrivenham? powers and the necessary resources to be able to scrutinise We need to narrow down the issues when it comes to fully the work of our intelligence agencies? Libya so that we can avoid the pitfalls that have beset the Gibson process thus far. Mr Clarke: I assure the right hon. Lady that there is no delay to that aspect of our policy. We will shortly be Mr Clarke: The intention was that the Gibson inquiry responding to the consultations on our Green Paper, would cover that aspect of the Libyan allegations, the first of which concerned the basis on which courts particularly the two allegations of rendition, that fitted and other proceedings can handle intelligence material with the terms of reference the inquiry already had for in a way that improves their ability to try cases without the Guantanamo Bay cases, but a lot of issues have 757 Detainee Inquiry18 JANUARY 2012 Detainee Inquiry 758 been thrown up by the Libyan allegations and we will the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation that consider how best to handle them. Unfortunately, the might require him to have a salary and an office outside Metropolitan police are bound to take months at least, the Home Office to review these matters independently I should have thought, so we have time to consider how and effectively? best to handle these matters. Mr Clarke: We have not taken any decisions yet Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I about the exact point at which we will start constituting wholeheartedly agree with the statement that the Justice a new judge-led inquiry or approaching a judge and Secretary has made today, but how can we ensure that people who might wish to serve on the inquiry. What we the security and intelligence agents who do such sterling did this time was to set up the Gibson inquiry in the work on our behalf are protected against false allegations belief that we were about to start imminently—going against them? into the full formal stage after a few months of preparation. Presumably, we will try to repeat that, but at this stage it Mr Clarke: I have never been able to protect anybody is impossible to know when we will be in a position to against false allegations but the easiest way of handling do that. At the moment, we want to review the facts of such allegations is to investigate them quickly and dismiss these cases so I do not feel the need to create a new them. I have no doubt that allegations that turn out to appointment to review the legislation in this area; indeed, be false will be quickly dismissed by Sir Peter Gibson I would argue, subject to what emerges, that the law in and I hope that any future inquiry will get rid of this area is reasonably clear. It is the facts that we hope malicious or politically motivated allegations, to which to investigate, and then the application of the law to people who work in this field are bound to be exposed. those facts. However, that is not a description of the things now being looked at. The questions being raised here are Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): Is serious and this issue calls for some explanation. We not the real lesson of Gibson that important inquiries want the Libyan cases to be investigated very thoroughly such as this cannot proceed properly without the full and we look forward to the police conclusion and the confidence of all interests and participants? What is the results of a judge-led inquiry on the whole matter. Justice Secretary doing to ensure that any future inquiries will have the full confidence of all human rights groups Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): Last July, my right and all lawyers involved in such cases? hon. and learned Friend confirmed to me at the time of his statement on the Gibson inquiry that he wanted Mr Clarke: I have met a very wide range NGOs, Shaker Aamer, the last British resident detained in human rights groups and those with an interest, and I Guantanamo Bay, to be available to give evidence to it. have been trying to persuade them that the Gibson Does not this pause give a fresh opportunity to press inquiry is something that they should get engaged with. the case that he should be released and be available to I very much hope still to see them doing that. I am still give evidence to any new inquiry? having meetings about the Green Paper on security and justice and of course on the supervision of the security Mr Clarke: My hon. Friend is probably right. That is services. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary was another good reason why we would like Shaker Aamer here earlier; we will continue to engage. I agree that it to be released and I will bring her remarks to the would be very much better if we could get the NGOs attention of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. and others to accept that this is the way to proceed. We We keep making representations and trying to get him will continue to listen to their arguments about why released and brought back. they feel that they cannot, and we will do our best.

Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): When some of us Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I were calling for a public inquiry led by a judge into welcome the Secretary of State’s statement. Does he phone hacking at the News of the World, we cited the agree that under procedure there is no other way than to Gibson inquiry as one that had been set up even while allow the Crown Prosecution Service to make those criminal investigations were ongoing, and the Secretary investigations before carrying on with the inquiry? of State said that it was important that Gibson was able to secure whatever evidence there was that might in Mr Clarke: I am glad to hear that my hon. Friend other cases be destroyed. I hope that he can still make believes that. I think that is right. The problem of that assertion today. letting the inquiry go ahead while the police are carrying out the investigations is obviously that one could hopelessly Mr Clarke: The agencies are reviewing their accessing compromise the other. We cannot have witnesses giving of the necessary records, because these Libyan allegations evidence about events when the police are in the middle emerged as a surprise. We are making sure, as far as one of inquiries into the self-same events. [Interruption.] can, that this matter is reviewed and that we access such Well, that was the basis upon which we started, and records as are available. everybody accepted that Gibson could not start until the police investigations had finished. There are sensible Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): We reasons, as my hon. Friend says, why we are in that must get to the bottom of the allegations of mistreatment situation. as soon as possible. The credibility of the intelligence services depends on it. To that end, how soon after Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): Our country police investigations are concluded does the Secretary has a reputation around the world as one which protects of State expect a successor detainee inquiry to be human rights. When allegations of extraordinary rendition established? In the interim, is there an enhanced role for were made, it tarnished that image. I welcome the Lord 759 Detainee Inquiry18 JANUARY 2012 Detainee Inquiry 760

[Yasmin Qureshi] case last week of the two Libyans, the letter which was found from the MI6 officer confirms that that was not Chancellor’s inquiry into the whole issue and the support merely an allegation. The two were sent over to Libya given by the shadow Secretary of State for Justice. I ask and were tortured. As we know, one of them, who holds the Lord Chancellor to take on board the points that a high position now in post-Gaddafi Libya, is accordingly the shadow Secretary of State for Justice mentioned. bringing legal action against the UK Government.

Mr Clarke: I am grateful to the hon. Lady. It is Mr Clarke: Those are the serious allegations which extremely important that we maintain this essentially need to be investigated and are being investigated by the cross-party approach to these matters and that the police. On the principle of the matter, which the hon. House gives its full support to our attempts to get to Gentleman underlines, this Government are absolutely the bottom of these matters. As she says, it is in the clear that we do not engage in torture, we do not interests of this country and of the Security Service that condone torture, we do not get engaged in torture in we do so. any way, and we are not remotely going to get involved in the cruel and inhuman treatment of detainees in any Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): For quite a long way. The sooner we investigate the serious allegations time, together with the security services and the police, I that have emerged from Tripoli, the better. was responsible for detainees and for interviewing them. In all that time we took huge care to comply with Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): The Secretary of State instructions, particularly about human rights, when said that in pursuit of the Libyan allegations “the interviewing detainees. It is very difficult and sometimes agencies”, which I presume are the security agencies, dangerous work for the officers concerned. I hope—I “will continue to review their records”, and that the know—the Secretary of State will agree that instances Government will ensure that the process is “thorough of poor practice are few and far between and are very and comprehensive.” Is there any room for independent sad indeed. oversight of that review by the agencies of their records and of any lack of records that might be identified? Mr Clarke: My hon. Friend speaks with much greater How exactly can he assure the House that that process authority than I on the subject and puts forward an will be thorough and comprehensive, as it seems that opinion with which I wholeheartedly agree. That is why the subsequent police investigation will be entirely dependent it is in the interests of the vast majority of those brave upon it? men and women who serve in those services, often in very dangerous situations, that we tackle these allegations Mr Clarke: One must adopt a sensible approach to of malpractice. I am sure the allegations are against a this. We did not expect the Libyan revelations to appear tiny number of officers and it may be that they will turn until they emerged from that office in Tripoli. For that out to be unfounded. The sooner we can clear this up reason a most thorough review of records is being and draw a line under it, the better. undertaken and will continue. To bring in fresh people to review the review—one gets carried away. I have no Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Will the reason to doubt that at present the most thorough Justice Secretary accept that the allegation that British review is taking place to make sure that we know where security officials handed over suspects to places abroad we are and we can put an end to the matter by having it where they were tortured is a matter of great concern properly and independently investigated, eventually by for Britain’s reputation? I said “allegation”, but in the a judge-led inquiry. 761 18 JANUARY 2012 Points of Order 762

Points of Order that I attach not on my account, but on behalf of the House, to the House hearing and, preferably on very 1.6 pm important matters, having the opportunity first to question Ministers. It is desirable that the House hears first, Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): On a point of rather than audiences outside. order, Mr Speaker. Is it in order for the hon. Member for South West Devon (Mr Streeter) to describe Dudley Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): On a point of as ugly? Why should a place which boasts the UK’s first order, Mr. Speaker. One of the areas of parliamentary national geological nature reserve, a fantastic castle, a life—the manners of this Chamber—that has improved beautiful town centre which traces its roots back to in recent years is that it is now completely unacceptable mediaeval Britain, and the award-winning Black Country for one Member to criticise another Member on the living museum be sneered at by somebody like him? basis of gender, race, ethnicity or disability. The most Should he not come to Dudley and see these gems for under-represented group in this Parliament is the himself? Would you like to come to Dudley, Mr Speaker, septuagenarians. Today we heard what I believe many so that you can see how wrong he was? of us thought was a gratuitous and entirely offensive Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman not insult to a greatly respected hon. Member, made entirely only for the content of his point of order, but for his because of his age. Is it not right that ageist discriminatory courtesy in giving me advance notice of it. I remind him remarks should be outlawed in the same way that other that a wise person said that there is no point in arguing discriminatory remarks are? about taste. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I am sure Dudley is beautiful to its own Member of Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): Further Parliament. That the hon. Gentleman is a doughty and to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not also the articulate exponent of that perceived beauty is no surprise case that “Erskine May” makes it very clear that no to me, as this year marks 30 years since he and I first Member of Parliament should criticise another and call made each other’s acquaintance at the university of them a name that relates to an animal? In those Essex. I am afraid that on the matter of the beauty or circumstances, is it not only right that the Prime Minister otherwise of Dudley, I have not yet had an opportunity should come back to the House and apologise to my to form my own judgment, but I appreciate the hon. hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner)? Gentleman’s prospective invitation and I would, of course, be inclined to accept it. I do not think expressions of Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Further to aesthetic opinion fall within the rules of order unless that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not important those expressions of opinion concern another Member that those of us of a certain age group should not be of the House. seen as the new persecuted minority? Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab) rose— Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con) rose—

Mr Speaker: I will come to the hon. Gentleman. I am Mr Speaker: Is it on the same matter? Gosh, a vintage saving him up. He is too precious. I do not want to quartet indeed, and a very high quality vintage. waste him too early. I call Mr Chuka Umunna. Mark Pritchard: Further to that point of order, Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. You have seen the grey hairs as well—on Mr Speaker. You will be aware that excessive pay and my head, of course. I seek your guidance on whether rewards for failure in the City and in boardrooms round this Parliament and this House of Commons would be the country are a matter of huge public interest. The better with more or less humour. Government have let it be known that they will announce what they plan to do about the issue on Tuesday next Mr Speaker: I am always in favour of humour, but week. Our strong view is that the Business Secretary just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, humour is a should do so in an oral statement to the House. He is matter of subjective judgment. Sometimes people are giving a speech to the Social Market Foundation at funny, sometimes they think they are funny, sometimes 12.30 pm on Tuesday, before the House sits. Can you they think they are funny deliberately when they are advise the House whether you have been given notice not, sometimes they do not realise they are funny when that he intends to come first to the House on Monday they are. There are all sorts of different permutations. It to give an oral statement on what the Government are would be unwise for me to offer a view as to the to do about the matter, and whether you would expect category into which the matter of current discussion him to do so? happens to fall, but I have never had any doubt about Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the hon. Gentleman’s well-developed and furnished sense that point of order, of the content of which I did not of humour. have advance notice. I would certainly expect that if a I agree with the hon. Member for Walsall North significant policy announcement is to be made, a statement (Mr Winnick) that septuagenarians should not become in one form or another—there are different forms of a persecuted minority. The hon. Gentleman is sometimes statement, as the hon. Gentleman will be aware—would in a minority, and a principled minority, on a range of first be made to the House. I hope the hon. Gentleman matters, and has been throughout his long parliamentary will understand if I say that more widely than that I career. All I would say is that I do not think that the would be reluctant to go. I would want to observe how hon. Gentleman himself is persecuted, certainly not by the Government conduct themselves and judge matters me, and anybody trying to persecute the hon. Gentleman accordingly, but both the Leader of the House and the should frankly give up the unequal struggle, because Deputy Leader of the House are aware of the premium that person will not get anywhere with the hon. Gentleman. 763 Points of Order 18 JANUARY 2012 764

[Mr Speaker] Keeping of Primates As Pets (Prohibition) Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order With regard to the point of order from the hon. No. 23) Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe), I think that I am right in saying that “Erskine May” no longer 1.15 pm contains the prohibition to which the hon. Gentleman refers. I think that, certainly at one time or another, Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): I beg there has been a prohibition on, or presumption against, to move, reference to an existing animal. That leave be given to bring in a Bill to prohibit the keeping of With regard to point of order of the hon. Member primates as pets in the United Kingdom and the breeding, sale and purchase of primates; to introduce breed-specific codes of for Newport West (Paul Flynn), it is very difficult for practice for the keeping of primates in animal sanctuaries and for me to interpret the mindset of another hon. or right species conservation; and for connected purposes. hon. Member, be that a newly arrived Member, or a I present this Bill to the House today on behalf of very senior Member, or the most senior Member of the those who cannot speak for themselves. I refer to non- Government. Sometimes an observation might be made human primates, most commonly referred to as monkeys. with reference to perhaps a past attitude, style or conduct, The Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to and I do not think that I want to get into the issue of Animals and Wild Futures estimate that between 2,500 what was said today. I might want to reflect on it. All I and 7,500 primates are kept as pets in England, Wales would say is that I share the hon. Gentleman’s absolute and Scotland, but others suggest the number might be disapproval of sexism, racism, ageism and other forms as high as 15,000 to 20,000. Owing to the lack of of discrimination. The hon. Gentleman’s track record registered breeders and the unregulated nature of selling on that matter speaks for itself over a very long period. monkeys to private buyers, it is very difficult to come up with an exact figure. I will explain to the House how monkeys suffer by being kept as household pets, and why there is such a strong case for banning primates as pets. More than 360 highly regarded primatologists and other respected professionals support the call for a restriction on primate keeping to genuine specialists, and only for the purposes of sanctuary or conservation. There are many countries that have already banned keeping primates as pets, including Israel, Mexico, Honduras, India, Brazil, the Netherlands, Belgium and Sweden. I will explain to the House why it is entirely necessary to follow the lead of these countries and introduce a ban on keeping primates as pets in the UK. As some hon. Members may know, the Monkey Sanctuary in Looe is in the heart of my constituency of South East Cornwall, and some may even remember the tale of Donkey the monkey, whom I spoke about in another debate. I would like to report that he is keeping very well. It is telling that none of the monkeys re-homed at the Monkey Sanctuary was free of behavioural problems on arrival, and most showed multiple neuroses. Primates show evidence of self-awareness and intelligence, and have sophisticated cognitive capacities and complex patterns of behaviour. They also form intricate social relationships and are keen problem solvers. It is well known that non-human primate intelligence is on a par with that of humans. However, the RSPCA has confirmed that 61% of incidents involved primates being housed alone. The effects of a lack of socialisation are profound. These include high levels of abnormal behaviours such as self-mutilation and difficulties socialising. Furthermore, cutting off the period in which young primates are dependent on their mothers is known to have long-lasting negative psychological and physiological effects. The Monkey Sanctuary informed me that common repetitive behaviours are classic in ex-pets. Examples include pacing, head twisting, teeth grinding, rocking and overeating. Primates also require a high level of specialist care to provide for their complex needs. Commercially available primate foods do not account for specific dietary requirements. Inappropriate diet can increase susceptibility to diseases of human origin, 765 Keeping of Primates As Pets 18 JANUARY 2012 Keeping of Primates As Pets 766 (Prohibition) (Prohibition) including respiratory, gastro-intestinal, skin and viral everything they did for King Julien and for doing all disorders. Primates have been found to have been fed they can to re-accommodate him in a suitable environment. seriously inappropriate items, such as coffee, tobacco Another recent case did not have such a happy ending. and marijuana. A west-midlands couple who owned a crippled baby Furthermore, RSPCA records show that over a quarter marmoset monkey sold him in a fish and chip shop car of cages were judged to be ridiculously small—in some park for £650 in June, rather than take him to a vet. An instances, monkeys were found housed in parrot cages. RSPCA primatologist said that Mikey had advanced For those who do not think that it could get worse for bone disease and seven fractures. His tail, which is used those monkeys, here is another fact: they are mostly for balancing, was broken. His injuries were deemed so kept indoors. That leads to a lack of sunlight, which severe that he had to be put down. The couple were means that the necessary vitamin D levels are rarely convicted of animal cruelty and banned from keeping met. Bone disease in primates kept as pets is a recurrent pets for life. problem. I argue that the Animal Welfare Act 2006 has not been an effective tool in protecting primates that are Let me tell the story of Joey, a capuchin monkey who kept as household pets. The Act states that local authorities is now residing at the Monkey Sanctuary in Looe— are meant to inspect the primate’s living conditions and Members who wish to see a photo of Joey can see me assess whether it has a safe environment. Monkeys are after the debate. He was kept in a small cage in a let down by the fact that many local authorities lack London apartment for nine years. A lack of natural primate expertise. They do not have the working knowledge light and proper diet led to nutritional bone disease. He required to assess correctly whether a primate is in a has extensive bone deformation, including bowed limb healthy environment. This leads to cases such as that of bones and poor bone density. He cannot climb or eat Joey, who ended up being re-homed at the Monkey easily and is permanently disabled. He also displays the Sanctuary but with severe physical and psychological stereotypical rocking behaviour that is classic for ex-pets. problems, and monkeys like Mikey inevitably having to His owner was away most of the time and, other than a be put down. friend who spent about an hour with him every day, The RSPCA has also confirmed that, proportionately, Joey had no social companionship. It appears that the complaints reported to it were four to 12 times more local council granted a licence for Joey under the Dangerous frequent for primates than for typical pet species. I Wild Animals Act 1976 for at least the first year, but at cannot fault the premise of the 2006 Act, but evidently some point it was not renewed and the council never it is not accomplishing what it set out to do, which is to followed up the case. That means that the council seems protect these animals. The only effective means of to approve of the conditions in which Joey was kept, adequately safeguarding pet primate welfare is banning conditions that led to serious physical deformities and the keeping of primates as pets. I therefore urge all hon. behavioural abnormalities. Members to support the Bill, which would free these Another case only last month concerned a ring-tailed monkeys who cannot help themselves. lemur found on Tooting common. He had collapsed in Question put and agreed to. sub-zero temperatures and was diagnosed with Ordered, hypothermia, severe dehydration and shock. Named That Sheryll Murray, Oliver Colvile, Zac Goldsmith, Bob King Julien by the staff at the Blue Cross animal Stewart, Mark Pritchard, Caroline Nokes, Stephen Gilbert, Katy hospital in Victoria, he was cold, scared and did not Clark, Mark Lazarowicz, Neil Parish, Peter Aldous and Joan want to eat. Happily, the lemur is now on the road to Walley present the Bill. recovery and strong enough to leave the charity’s care. Sheryll Murray accordingly presented the Bill. He has been transferred to Specialist Wildlife Services. I Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on would like to thank those at the Blue Cross hospital for Friday 30 March, and to be printed (Bill 273). 767 18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 768

Local Government Finance Bill Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree that another possible motive for considering the Bill on the Floor of the House is the (Clause 1, Schedule 1, Clause 2, Schedule 2, Clauses 3 coalition Government’s botched programming of business to 5, Schedule 3, Clauses 6 and 7, new Clauses relating for this Session and the fact that, were it not being to non-domestic rates and new Schedules relating to considered here, there would be little to be heard in the non-domestic rates) Chamber?

[1ST ALLOCATED DAY] Helen Jones: My hon. Friend makes an extremely Considered in Committee good point, which I will come to in a moment. If the Bill comes into force, one extremely complex [MR LINDSAY HOYLE in the Chair] system will be removed and replaced with another extremely complex system, without time for local authorities Clause 1 to prepare for it.

LOCAL RETENTION OF NON-DOMESTIC RATES John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): Before my hon. Friend moves on from the question of evidence, 1.26 pm I do not want her to overlook the value of such evidence. Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): I beg to move Does she agree that democracy works better when a amendment 20, page 2, line 13, leave out ‘2013’ and wide range of organisations has an opportunity to insert ‘2014’. contribute effectively to our discussions? Evidence sessions in a Public Bill Committee give organisations that represent The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): people with a wide range of interests the chance to With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: assess, analyse and propose amendments to improve amendment 21, in clause 2, page 2, line 19, leave out legislation. That stage will be sorely missed because of ‘2013’ and insert ‘2014’. the way in which the Government are handling the Bill. Amendment 22, in clause 3, page 3, line 21, leave out ‘2013’ and insert ‘2014’. Helen Jones: I could not agree more with my right Amendment 23, in clause 4, page 3, line 35, leave out hon. Friend. Since I have entered this House, I have ‘2013’ and insert ‘2014’. learned that the best way to improve legislation is to Amendment 24, in clause 5, page 4, line 5, leave out scrutinise it effectively and listen to those who will have ‘2013’ and insert ‘2014’. to deal with it when it comes in. If the Government Amendment 25, in clause 6, page 4, line 22, leave out chose to take evidence, they would have ample opportunity ‘2013’ and insert ‘2014’. to table amendments to the Bill in Committee or on Report. Helen Jones: We have tabled these amendments because we are concerned about the way the Bill is being rushed Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): There are 650 Members through the House and, should it be enacted, the short of Parliament, many of whom are former councillors. time allowed for its implementation. Understandably, There is a good body of experts in this Chamber. I the Bill deals with difficult questions. It is not easy when welcome what the Government are doing. It allows dealing with local government finance to resolve exactly people to have their say. where the line should be drawn between central and local government, how far services should be uniform Helen Jones: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for and how far we are prepared to tolerate variations in that point. Although he is correct in saying that many them. I accept that the Government carried out a of us have been local councillors, I point out to him, consultation before bringing in the Bill, but the problem with all due deference because this applies to me as well, is that the Bill seems to reflect little of that consultation. that many of us were local councillors some time ago In addition, the Bill is being taken through the House and that the system of local government has altered in at a break-neck pace. It was published on 19 December, the time since. It would be beneficial for the House to just before the Christmas recess, and had its Second hear from those who are running local councils now. I Reading on 10 January, which was the first day the sincerely regret that we have not had time to do so. House returned and only two sitting days later. Instead of sending the Bill upstairs to Committee, where we could have taken evidence, which we cannot do on the Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): Floor of the House—that is the important thing about My hon. Friend is making an important point. I have Public Bill Committees—the Government insisted that always found local government slightly more complicated the Bill should be considered in Committee of the than quantum mechanics. whole House in three days, and I think that it was originally meant to be two days. John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): Only Why are the Government so worried about taking slightly? evidence upstairs in Committee? They might be a little worried about what they could hear, because the truth is Graham Stringer: Well, a lot more complicated. Does that local councils, having started to look at the Bill in my hon. Friend agree that the last time a Conservative detail, are particularly concerned about the speed of Government had a major reorganisation of local implementation for its provisions and are struck by the government finance, they ended up putting VAT up for number of powers being given to the Secretary of State. ever and costing the country £20 billion per year? 769 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 770

Helen Jones: My hon. Friend, who is a distinguished Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I agree with my hon. former leader of a local authority, makes a valid point. Friend completely. We are only doing things in this way I agree with him on one thing: local government finance because the Government do not have enough to fill our is exceedingly complicated. For that reason, it might days. Since we have the innovation of the whole Committee well have been useful to hear in Committee from people stage on the Floor of the House, could we not have such as finance officers in local authorities who will another innovation of having witnesses before us? There have to deal with this procedure from day to day. They is a special place for them at the Bar of the House. We might well have been able to suggest technical amendments could devote one day, or perhaps additional days, to that would have been beneficial to the Committee and hearing exactly what those in local government think which, if we are honest, are beyond the expertise of about the legislation. most hon. Members. Helen Jones: My hon. Friend, as usual, makes an George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con): Will the interesting point, but he is tempting me to go beyond hon. Lady remind the Committee how many months of my remit and discuss the procedures of the House. extensive consultation the proposals for the Bill have Perhaps the Procedure Committee could look at that gone through before this stage and how many changes point. to the scheme were proposed and then adopted? John Healey: Before my hon. Friend moves off the Helen Jones: The hon. Gentleman should recognise question of procedure, does she agree that it is important that it is not much use having a consultation unless it that we do not lose sight of the fact that the introduction informs the legislation. [Interruption.] Local authorities of evidence sessions as part of the Public Bill Committee say that it has not. A second process, which many process, as opposed to the Standing Committee process, Members have found useful, is to allow people to give was one of the good reforms of the previous Parliament? evidence on the exact wording and form of the Bill once The hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms) is right that it has been published. I believe that if we are serious there is useful expertise across the House from Members about the legislation that we introduce in this House, it with a background in local government. However, unlike is right and proper to give people the opportunity to do the previous consultation and the public statements of that. People have not had time to do so with this Bill Ministers, evidence sessions would give members of the because we are not having evidence sessions in Committee. Committee and Members who are following the legislation The House introduced such evidence sessions because it time and help in getting to grips with the content of the was believed that they would improve legislation. It is a Bill. It serves our purpose, as well as the wider purpose pity that the Government have decided to miss them of better legislation, to have those evidence sessions and out. not to put them to one side, as the Government are Several hon. Members rose— doing in this case.

Helen Jones: I am inundated. I will give way to my Helen Jones: My right hon. Friend is right. We do right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich have a lot of expertise across the House, but we need (Mr Raynsford). up-to-date and informed expertise, which is what evidence sessions give us. Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): Is it not very clear to my hon. Friend and to Government Graham Stringer: On a point of order, Mr Hoyle. I Members that there is something slightly odd about a was interested in what my hon. Friend the Member for Bill that is supposed to give benefits to local government Rhondda (Chris Bryant) said. Will you advise the arousing considerable anxiety and concern in local Committee on how it could hear from witnesses in its government, as we have seen in the briefings that we sittings on the Floor of the House? have received? Is that not clear evidence of the need for further thought and attention to the detail to ensure The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): that we do not end up with a disaster that is problematic There is no procedure to do that in Committee of the for local government, rather than a measure that gives whole House. Mr Bryant was taking the hon. Lady greater discretion and benefits to local government? away from the subject that is before us. Helen Jones: My right hon. Friend makes a very good Helen Jones: If I may return to the subject of the point. In delivering local services, we are meant to be amendment— partners with local government. It is right and proper that the House has an opportunity to take on board the views of local government on the legislation. Chris Bryant rose— As my right hon. Friend is a London Member, perhaps I may read out what London Councils says: Helen Jones: I will just make a little progress. “The retention scheme as written is extremely complex and Councils are expected to prepare for the changes that does not, in our view, incorporate adequate reward and incentive the Bill will bring in without knowing exactly what they for local authorities. London Councils believes that the Government are preparing for. This is an enabling Bill and we have needs to urgently rethink the business rate retention scheme that not seen any draft regulations to go with it. In the it has set out in the Bill.” Government proposals, there is no guarantee that councils If we had had a proper Committee stage upstairs, we will not be worse off after the first year of the scheme. could have taken evidence on that matter, considered Councils do not yet know what percentage of business technical amendments and debated them properly. It is rates they will be allowed to keep. They do not know a shame that we are not doing so. how the levy will be set, nor who will qualify for a 771 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 772

[Helen Jones] the House until the autumn. That causes real difficulty for local authorities, because it leaves so much uncertainty safety-net payment and in what circumstances. They do about what they will have to deal with. not know what their business rate baseline will be. John McDonnell: I feel a bit like Banquo’s ghost in Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): My hon. Friend this debate because I was chair of finance on the is making an incredibly important point, which cuts to Greater London council, whose expenditure tipped Mrs the heart of the matter. The Government say that they Thatcher over the edge and into nationalising the business are in favour of localism, yet they have created a Bill in rates. There are real problems with the complexities of which the Secretary of State retains many powers. As the Bill, as set out in the briefing from London Councils. my hon. Friend says, those powers are not defined, so it It is difficult for individual Members of Parliament and is not clear whether local government will keep business individual local authorities to work out the implications rates and how much it will keep, or whether and when for one’s area. Although we cannot receive witnesses on the Secretary of State will intervene. the Floor of the House, as the Deputy Speaker said, the Government have introduced a procedure whereby we Helen Jones: My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. can pause a Bill to enable us to undertake further As the Bill progresses, we will table amendments to consideration and consultation with the relevant interested attempt to clarify some of those matters. However, at parties. Perhaps the Government could consider that at the moment, local authorities are in the dark about some point during the day. We might want to pause the what they will deal with next year, if the Bill is passed. Bill and come back to it later, after more detailed discussions with interested parties. Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): As with so much legislation under this Government, whether Helen Jones: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for in Committee or on the Floor of the House, we are reminding us of two things: that a Conservative being asked to consider the Bill blind. We are not given Government nationalised business rates and the idea of the background information that we need—for example, a pause. The Government are in such a mess with most the national planning policy framework in the case of of their legislation that the whole lot could probably do the Localism Bill. Does my hon. Friend agree that the with a pause while they rethink. Bill, like so much current legislation, is therefore likely Let me revert to the uncertainty for local authorities. to form part of the logjam in the other place at some They have made it clear that they are concerned about point further down the line? The amendment makes the short time they will have, following the passage of enormous sense, because the last thing we want is the Bill and the regulations that go with it, to make legislation stuck in the other place, and, in this instance, changes to their systems. London Councils said: for the timetable to be missed. “All of these changes will require substantial changes to systems and processes at the local level, and we are extremely concerned Helen Jones: My hon. Friend makes an important that not enough time is being allowed for all of these policies to be point about our not seeing the draft regulations. It is properly thought through and implemented.” difficult to debate the Bill properly without them and it I could not put it better myself. also makes matters difficult for local authorities. Moreover, Local authorities are being asked to cope with not the measure is a carry-over Bill. The Government have only changes to non-domestic rates, but the localisation got themselves into such a mess with their legislation of council tax benefit at the same time. That will require backing up in the Lords that they cannot, even with the new IT systems, which are unlikely to be ready, and extended Session, guarantee that the Bill will get through more changes to local council revenues. before the Queen’s Speech.

Chris Bryant: May I pull up my hon. Friend on one 1.45 pm point? She referred to councils, but she means councils Alison Seabeck: There are only three, possibly four in England. Is there not a particular irony here, in that companies in the UK that are capable of producing the the Conservative party has spent the past few years sort of software that local authorities might require. campaigning for English votes for English folks in the Clearly, they will have a capacity problem if they are House, yet by holding the Committee stage on the faced with hundreds of local authorities wanting individual Floor of the House, Welsh Members of Parliament are systems. That is concerning. almost required to take part in the process when otherwise they would not be allowed to do so? Helen Jones: My hon. Friend is right—there will be a capacity problem. Again, it would have been useful to Helen Jones: My hon. Friend makes an interesting hear witnesses from the relevant companies and consider point, although I have never known him to need any the time scale they need. pushing to take part in any process in the House— Councils will also have to cope with changes to their thankfully, because he contributes so much. revenue. It is likely that some people who receive a cut in The Bill is hugely complicated, local authorities do their council tax benefit will not be able to pay, and not know what faces them, and the measure will not get collection rates will fall. That will affect some local through until the next Session. On the Government’s authorities far more than others. The change also brings timetable, the Bill must get Royal Assent by July. That with it the possibility of more claims, because we are means that regulations may not be put before the House moving from perceiving something as a benefit to its until after the Bill has finished its passage. The House appearing as a reduction in the council tax bill. All will rise earlier than usual this year because of the those with expertise in benefits say that it is likely that Olympics, which means that they may not be put before more pensioners will claim. That is a good thing, but 773 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 774 local authorities need time to adjust their budgets because rates, who design the systems, who administer council they face a 10% reduction in the amount of money tax benefit and deliver the services. If the Government available, coupled with protection for pensioners, and rush the implementation of the Bill and it all goes the possibility of more claims. wrong, chaos could result. They need to take the opportunity to test the system properly and to think Mr Raynsford: My hon. Friend is making a powerful things through. If they insist on introducing this hugely case. She is considering the changes to the benefits complex system, they need at least to give themselves scheme and she highlights the fact that an increase in time to run it properly and ensure that local councils pensioners’ claims as a result of the changes would be a can adapt their systems properly. That is why I have further problem for local authorities. Indeed, it will be a moved amendment 20 today. It might be helpful if I tell major problem for them, because they will not receive the Committee at this point that the Opposition intend the funding to pay for it that they get under the current to press the amendment to a Division. benefits scheme. They are being asked to budget in advance, with all the uncertainties, knowing that the Mr Syms: I, too, have been an Opposition politician. downside risk remains with them if the financial position Opposition politicians often argue that Bills taken on is not as good as they thought when they budgeted. the Floor of the House really ought to be taken in a There is no safety net in the benefits part of the system Public Bill Committee; and when there is a Public Bill for authorities that find themselves in difficulty. That is Committee, they argue as eloquently as possible that a fundamental problem, which is arousing real concern the Bill ought to be taken on the Floor of the House. in local government circles. It is extraordinary that the When Opposition politicians are not sure what to do Government are not giving an opportunity for those about a Bill, one thing they say is that it has not been serious problems to be understood. considered for long enough. They then try, as amendment 20 does, to delay the commencement date, because that Helen Jones: My right hon. Friend is, of course, right. is a good substitute for hearing their views on such Throughout the Bill, financial risks are transferred to reforms. If they can press an amendment, such as local authorities. The Government set the system but amendment 20, to a Division after a debate, that is very transfer the financial risk elsewhere. good, because in that way they cannot discuss some of Let me return to the problems with IT systems. the important issues in, say, schedules 1, 2 and 3. Earlier, my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Perhaps we will end today not quite knowing where the Moor View (Alison Seabeck) mentioned that only a few Opposition are on some of those issues. firms provide those systems. Interestingly, Capita has The reality is that we probably have the most centralised sent an e-mail to benefit and council tax managers to system of local government in the western world. The set out its concerns about the timing of the system. The Bill is a step in the right direction for devolving power. manager who sent the e-mail writes: Perhaps it does not go far enough, but we will doubtless “I think the most important point to make is that I remain see as the Committee progresses over its three days what concerned and disappointed that the timetable remains unchanged assurances we get from the Minister on the pace at meaning that primary and secondary legislation will not be which the Government are going. passed until the summer / autumn / winter 2012. Without the I am confident that the Government’s instincts are framework and detailed regulations underpinning both the local schemes and means for ensuring that pensioners now and in the right. My experience of local government officials is future remain protected or treated equally, it is impossible to that they must always second-guess central Government. commence planning for software changes.” Some are pretty good at it. Rather than prevaricating, if That is the system with which the Government are we are to change the system, the sooner we do so, the expecting local authorities to cope. better. I therefore support my hon. Friend the Minister. There are other changes in the Bill—provisions on tax increment financing, on the rating of empty properties, Mr Kevan Jones: The reason the Bill is being taken on and on exemptions from the scheme for renewable the Floor of the House is that there is no business—the energy projects—for which local councils need time to business is in a logjam up in the other place. plan, adjust their budgets and rethink the way they do It is important that the Bill gets detailed scrutiny. As things. Those measures require changes to how councils my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North organise themselves and changes to IT systems. Many (Helen Jones) said, in a Public Bill Committee, we local authorities are making it clear that they believe the would have been allowed not only to scrutinise the Bill, Bill does not give them sufficient time to prepare for but to take evidence from councils, professionals and those changes. others with such expertise. We will not have that opportunity. May I make a suggestion to the Minister—it is meant As one who sat on one of the very first pre-legislative to be a helpful one? I try to be helpful occasionally even scrutiny Committees back in 2001—it was on the Civil if the Whip is giggling away. Why not run the proposed Contingencies Act 2004—I was converted and became system as a shadow system for one year to see how it a great fan of such pre-legislative scrutiny.That Committee works and iron out the glitches? Why not continue with was given the chance to look at the proposals in detail, the old system for a year but give local authorities an and as my hon. Friend said earlier, the Bill will bring indication of what they would have received under the about a radical change in local government finance in new system? That would allow any problems to be this country. ironed out and the system to work properly. We had just over three hours last week on Second Above all, the Opposition are saying that Ministers Reading. ought to take note of the people who must implement the changes on the ground—the people who collect the John Healey: Two hours for Back Benchers. 775 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 776

Mr Jones: As my right hon. Friend says, we had two nobody understood. I am stretched to understand why hours on Second Reading for Back Benchers. What we the hon. Gentleman thinks the new system will be any will see with this Bill is what we have seen with a number more confusing. of Bills. They fly through the House at the speed of light only to land in the other place to be picked apart 2pm slowly but surely because of their terrible drafting and Mr Jones: I do not know when the hon. Gentleman the draconian implications they will have for many of left local government, but we introduced three-year our constituents. I can foresee exactly what will happen budgeting, which helped local councils. I agree that with this Bill. When we look at the next few weeks of under the old system, when I was a councillor in the business programmed for the House, we can see that we days when the Tories were last in government, the could have unlimited time to debate the Bill, but time biggest problem for councils was having to guess what will be limited, and the Government will push the Bill their annual budget would be. I am not sure whether through with undue haste because they are determined three-year budgets were introduced by my right hon. to do so. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich As has already been said, the time scale set out in the (Mr Raynsford), who is in his place, but they gave Bill leaves councils with a huge dilemma, which is why I councils some certainty.The Bill will add more uncertainty. support amendments 20 and 21 to 25. I said this on Councils will be asked to second-guess what the system Second Reading, but I will say it again: the Bill is highly will be, and we will have no opportunity to scrutinise it political in the sense that the Government are shifting before it becomes law. blame from themselves to local councils under the guise of localism. A good example of that in the Bill is the Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): It is administration of council tax benefit. The measure precisely that uncertainty that is unsettling a number of contains a poison pill. Local councils must defend their local authorities, including Tameside metropolitan borough decisions on implementing a 10% cut locally. Clearly, council in my constituency. Had we had the opportunity the Minister and the Secretary of State will turn round to scrutinise properly the impact of the Government’s and say, “It’s not us, Guv; it’s local councils.” That has changes on various local authorities as part of the been the Government’s approach to responsibility process of deliberating on the Bill, we would have been throughout. It is nothing to do with localism; it is a able to assess the winners and losers across the country. highly political and cynical attempt to deflect the blame Despite the picture that Ministers paint that everybody from where it should lie—it should lie with the Government, is a winner and nobody is a loser, the reality is quite the not local councils. contrary. Over the coming years, as the new mechanism operates, the gap between authorities that win and John Healey: My hon. Friend makes an important those that lose will widen. I believe that areas such as point that counters the assertion of the hon. Member mine, and no doubt my hon. Friend’s, will be the losers. for Poole (Mr Syms). He said that Opposition Members argue that the Government are going too far too fast Mr Jones: I agree, and that uncertainty will be a with the Bill because we do not know what to say about problem not just because councils will not know what it. Does my hon. Friend agree, to the contrary, that the the rebate is going to be. It is quite clear that Durham is local authorities that must implement the Bill are worried not going to gain from the new system, and it was about the rapid time scale? Authorities in Yorkshire and interesting to hear the Secretary of State and the Minister the Humber have told us that they are concerned about say last week that the area would be a net gainer. However, the Secretary of State failed to tell the House—he “the rapid timetable for these reforms, given the huge levels of is very good at that—that he was referring to the last complexity involved and the radical implications they will have on councils’ ability to fund services to local communities”. five years’ figures, for some of which time the economy of County Durham was growing. Now, under the coalition That is why my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington Government, it is— North (Helen Jones) was so right to table the amendments. Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): It is a relative Mr Jones: I agree totally with my right hon. Friend. change. The Bill also has the backdrop of councils having to introduce draconian cuts—County Durham must take Mr Jones: It is not at all. If the hon. Gentleman £125 million out of its budget over the next four years. comes to my constituency and says that to the 21% of young people who are unemployed, I am sure they will That is alongside the uncertainty in the Bill. Neither find it very amusing. It is quite clear that given the hon. Members nor councils know about the regulations, economies of regions such as the north-east, if local and they will not know exactly how the rebate system authorities do not know what their compensation will will work. When they are budgeting for future years, it be, they will not be able to make plans. is important that councils know what they can do. The time scale in the Bill means that they are walking into It is interesting that Government Members seem the new arrangements blindly. They do not know what quite quiet this afternoon, including the Liberal Democrats, they must deduct, because we do not have the regulations who claim to be the party of local government. before us. Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Not for very long. George Hollingbery: Having spent 11 years as a local councillor, I can reflect on the fact that in almost no Mr Jones: No, and that is possibly because they will year that I can remember did we have any certainty have to explain to northern councils why they are supporting about our finances. It was all entirely settled by national measures that will have a terrible effect on their budgets. Government through an incredibly complex system that They sidestep that issue and say that it is all because the 777 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 778 matter is covered by the coalition agreement, and then Mr Jones: The Conservative party needs to learn we have the usual deathly silence from them. We need to lessons, because every time it has dabbled in local remind all our constituents on every possible occasion government finance it has got its fingers burned. The that such draconian cuts could not be got through the hon. Gentleman talks about the current system being House without the support of the Liberal Democrats. complicated, but the proposals in the Bill cannot exactly be said to be very simple, and it is clear that it will Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): centralise power into the hands of the Secretary of Would the hon. Gentleman like to tell the House whether State and take it away from local councils. he agrees with the principle of local authorities retaining more of their business rates? That is what we are meant Mr Raynsford: We have heard a rather partial and not to be discussing, and I would very much like to hear his very accurate account of the LGA’s view. Perhaps the view. hon. Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher) has Mr Jones: I think the hon. Lady represents Dorset, not read its briefing. I will not go into the details, and there is a big difference between Dorset and parts because interventions must be brief, but it states that of County Durham. Even though there are some very “the LGA supports amendment 60 which would postpone the beautiful parts of County Durham, I am sure that introduction of the scheme by 12 months.” Dorset’s economic activity shows it to be far more affluent than parts of County Durham. I support local Mr Jones: Ten out of ten to my right hon. Friend for decisions being taken at a local level, but I do not picking that up. support a system in which her constituents in wealthier areas will gain at the expense of constituencies such as Graham Stringer: None out of ten to the hon. Member mine that need support for economic development. for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher). What we heard last week on Second Reading from Mr Jones: Or perhaps minus one for being selective in Government Members was absolutely disgraceful. his quotation. It is not the first time that the Conservative Conservative Member after Conservative Member referred party has been selective in using quotes. to local councillors not being interested in economic development. I have to say that I have never yet met one Christopher Pincher: One fact that is absolutely who does not want to increase the economic vibrancy of undeniable is that Durham’s business rate growth has their area. They put a lot of effort into doing that, and been greater than the national average, so the Bill will such comments show again the prejudice of Government help the hon. Gentleman’s constituents, not hinder them. Members. The changes to council tax benefit will be a nightmare Mr Jones: I am sorry, but when the hon. Gentleman for councils not just because of the localisation of the gets his briefing notes from Conservative central office system but because of its top-slicing— or wherever, he should perhaps examine how the figures Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): Speak to the are presented. The Secretary of State is very good at amendments, will you? presenting figures. They are actually the figures for the past five years, when we had a growing employment Mr Jones: I am sorry, but I think you are chairing the base in County Durham. Committee, Mr Amess, not a Liberal Democrat Member who usually has very little to say, and frankly when he Mark Tami: And a Labour Government. does it is not very interesting. I am talking about the time scale of what is being Mr Jones: Indeed. Now, we see that the latest introduced. We will have to work out the methodology unemployment figure is nearly 7.8% for my constituency of how the funds are to be distributed. We hear, for and nearly 12% for the north-east in general, and businesses example, that pensioners are not going to be included, are closing. Is the hon. Member for Tamworth (Christopher which will have an effect on some poorer councils, such Pincher) saying that those businesses are somehow going as the eastern part of County Durham, with large to grow over the next few years as a result of this ageing populations. The time scale for the system’s measure? In fact, councils will lack certainty about how introduction is very limited, and there is uncertainty much they will get. The local authority is one of the about exactly how it will happen. Instead, the Bill biggest employers in County Durham, but there has should have included the schedules, procedures, mechanisms been a reduction in the numbers of people. I think the for redistribution and so on. policy is that by cutting back in local government and public services, all these new jobs will rush forward Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): The hon. from the private sector, but today’s figures show that Gentleman seems to be arguing that because there is 67,000 people have left the public service in the last uncertainty, the Bill should be delayed. May I remind quarter, while only 5,000 jobs have been created in the him of the words of the chairman of the Local Government private sector. Association, which I am sure he has read? He stated: As I said on Second Reading about my constituents “The current system of funding local government is incredibly in the north-east, the Bill will actually help the affluent complex and does not meet the needs of all the people we serve.” south. Clearly, it is a damn sight easier to attract business He also said: to the likes of Westminster and other economic “Now more than ever, we need to put in place a funding system hotspots in the south-east of England than to parts of that will support local public services and generate economic County Durham. That is no criticism of the work growth.” that local councils do to attract jobs—for instance, with Is that not an argument for progressing more quickly the council’s full support, the area has succeeded in rather than for delaying? attracting Hitachi trains to Newton Aycliffe in County 779 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 780

[Mr Kevan Jones] 2.15 pm

Durham. I know of the tremendous work that my hon. Mr Jones: But Portsmouth council received a year-on- Friend the Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) did on year increase in its grant. It is interesting to hear a that campaign. Liberal Democrat argue that deprivation should not be important to how local government money is spent. I The Bill is being rushed through with undue haste. would not be surprised to hear that from the Secretary We are expecting councils and local people to walk of State because, frankly, I do not think that he cares—for blindly into the future. The parties in government sometimes instance, his support for his own Conservative areas at try to portray this as a simplified system, but it is not; it the expense of areas such as the north-east is highly will be a centralised and bureaucratic system. We cannot political. allow a situation to develop in which local people or local government do not know how much money they Mark Tami: Does my hon. Friend recall the piles of will get or how the system will work in practice. Liberal Democrat leaflets over many years calling for more and more expenditure? Now that they are in Andrew Gwynne: Is not one merit of pausing, delaying government they are taking a slightly different approach. and taking stock of the changes that it would allow us to get the baseline starting point absolutely right for each local authority, which is crucial, and is it not the Mr Jones: Exactly. Not for the first time, some of case that using the 2012-13 formula grant model, those chickens are coming home to roost. Hopefully, we including the damping, to determine the baseline will, will have fewer Liberal Democrat “Focus”leaflets claiming for local authorities such as mine in Tameside, lock in credit for everything that goes right and criticising the funding losses arising from the damping exercise everything else that the previous Government did. Some and the disproportionate reduction in funding from the of those northern councils had Liberal Democrats, but 2011-12 and 2012-13 settlements? thankfully, in places such as Newcastle and Sheffield, the electorate have seen through them. Mr Jones: Yes. That would have come out had we had In conclusion, the timetable for the Bill needs to be proper pre-legislative scrutiny in Committee. It is the rethought. As suggested by my hon. Friend the Member same for County Durham. Under the funding settlement for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), if we can take witnesses at introduced last year by the Conservatives and Liberal this stage, we should consider doing so, because otherwise Democrats, County Durham lost about £10 million. the same will happen as has happened with a lot of Bills That will be in the system for ever more now because of this Session: the Bill will be rushed through here only to the measures in the Bill. Surprisingly, Wokingham council, be held up in the other place, where the ladies and Surrey council and many others gained from the system. gentlemen will give it the proper scrutiny that it deserves. That injustice will be written into the Bill for ever. Mr Ward: I want to make just a few comments. I also Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South) (LD): I declare consider it regrettable that the Committee stage is being an interest as a member of Portsmouth city council and taken here and not in one of the Committee Rooms. the executive member for economic development. The The quality of debate might have been better in that hon. Gentleman states that the Bill will greatly damage environment. local authorities. Will he reflect on why, over 13 years, I am sympathetic to the amendments on deferment. I the previous Labour Government, who received similar want to discuss that point in particular. After many, complaints from local authorities, did little or nothing many years of seeking the change for which most in the to assist them by putting local finance on a proper House have called, we have before us a radical and footing? important shift in the relationship between local government and central Government, but we face a potentially Mr Jones: That is not true. We did. We had a three-year enormous change of not just a financial nature but a settlement and an increase in the settlement. Through constitutional nature. One of the concerns that I guess the regional development agency in the north-east, we we all share is about the unknown consequences of the were putting money into areas such as Country Durham redistributional impact. so that they could work with local councils to attract new businesses. I know that the hon. Gentleman does Yes, there are tariffs and top-ups, and we welcome the not necessarily agree with everything that the coalition application of the retail prices index to the baselines for does, but unfortunately, in places such as the north-east, business rates and local authority funding—that is it is taking away the main driver, the RDAs, that local welcome—but actually local government finance is not councils could work with to attract more businesses to too complex. Yes, the formula and weightings are complex. the north-east. We all know about the complexities of what goes into the computer and the figures that come out, but its Mr Hancock: My recollection of those years was that purpose at the moment is actually pretty simple: to money was taken away from the city of Portsmouth, redistribute funds to authorities on the basis of need. where there was high unemployment and great deprivation, That is pretty simple. But we are moving from that and that the benefits went to places such as County system to a new system. Durham. We felt for a long time that the formula was We all welcome, I think, the principle behind localisation. very unfair and we campaigned to get it changed, but The trouble is that, with many of the things we are the Labour Government turned a deaf ear to the pleas facing, the easier it is to accept something in principle, from authorities such as Portsmouth which were trying the more difficult it is to challenge the consequences. to make a rational case for equalisation and a much Because we are talking about such a strong principle, fairer distribution. which many of us hold, we are willing to accept some of 781 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 782 the consequences, or potential consequences, when we The Temporary Chair: I will reflect on the point that are not fully aware of what they will be. There may or the right hon. Gentleman has made, and obviously may not be a change if we move from a system based on those on the Treasury Bench have heard it. What is the allocation of funds by need to one based on allocation proposed might not be possible because of time constraints, by growth in business rates. However one thing we do but I will certainly reflect on it. know is that if things go wrong, it must, by definition, be one that, with the total pot— Mr Ward: Just to conclude—

Graham Stringer: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Mr Kevan Jones: Good. Mr Ward: Let me just finish; I shall not be much Mr Ward: You and I are going to have to have words longer. later. I understand all the measures that are built in, but if the total pot is the same and there is a redistribution, it The Temporary Chair: Order. I would remind all hon. must be to the disadvantage of the beneficiary authorities Members that this is the mother of all Parliaments, and that receive most of the formula grant. That is a concern, we conduct ourselves in a civilised way. I am aware that and although it might not affect those authorities for something has been happening that is outside what is the first few years, because of the baseline protection, normal debate, but I would ask hon. Members please to the unknown consequences— calm down. Andrew Gwynne: Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point? Mr Ward: The issue that I want the Minister to consider is not so much to do with the resets—whether Mr Ward: Let me just get through this. they should be every 10 years or every three years—because the reset implies that something needs changing, and The Bill is not too complex. One of the arguments the truth is that we do not know whether anything will. against having witnesses—it would have been useful to What is much more important, as we venture into the do that—is that we will get the opinions of only those unknown, is how quickly everything is reviewed. That witnesses. The truth is that nobody knows what the might be after one year, or two years, and not necessarily outcome of this will be, because it is dependent on the the three years proposed by the amendment. We need to growth in business rates, while the strategy of re-balancing have clear evidence as soon as possible about the impact the economy will have implications for different parts of and the consequences of what is proposed in the Bill. the national economy. Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): I am grateful John Healey: On a point of order, Mr Amess. Any for the opportunity to speak in this debate, Mr Amess. I written evidence submitted to a Public Bill Committee, just want to pick up on the point made by the hon. and not just the oral evidence taken in its opening Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) about the principle sittings, will be circulated to all members of that Committee. of this Bill. I think that he said that most people in the May we have your guidance, and then the reassurance Committee agree with it. I agree with the principle that of the Minister or the House as appropriate, that any local authorities should do all they can to promote written evidence submitted to this Committee of the economic prosperity and growth in their areas. I am not whole House will be circulated to all Members, who sure that I necessarily agree with the principle of retention may all have an interest in participating? and localisation of business rates, although I will not repeat my concerns about that point, which I expressed The Temporary Chair (Mr David Amess): The Standing on Second Reading last week. Order on written evidence does not apply to Committees of the whole House, so I am afraid that I shall have to I support the amendment tabled by my right hon. disappoint the right hon. Gentleman. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench, because it is overly optimistic, shall we say, of the Government to Mr Mike Hancock: Further to that point of order, think that they will be able to get this legislation through Mr Amess. Is it not possible for the House itself to and that councils will be able to put the requisite decide that it would be appropriate for evidence supplied systems in place to introduce the new system of finance to this Committee to be circulated to all Members? in 2013. If we are to have this new system, the commencement date should be moved back, to 2014. The Temporary Chair: I hear what the hon. Gentleman Last week on Second Reading we heard a lot about has said, and I think that this is something that could be how the issue of local government finance had been considered on another day. Perhaps it is something that much debated and how the previous Government we could put to the Procedure Committee. commissioned the Lyons review. We had an historical “tour de force”, going through the history of local John Healey: Further to that point of order, Mr Amess. government finance, even referring to the work of Layfield As the Chairman of this Committee, you will have in the 1970s. Government Members seemed to suggest noticed that the programme order suggests that there that there was a case for just getting on and doing will be at least two more part-days for our proceedings. something to localise business rate retention, but Will you do your best to ensure that the suggestion doing something for the sake of it is not the same as made by the hon. Member for Portsmouth South doing something because it is the right thing to do and (Mr Hancock) is put to the right authorities, so that, if because it will work. The complexity of the new scheme agreed, a decision can be put in place for the final two of that is being proposed will not make the system of local these three days in Committee of the whole House? government finance any more transparent to local councils 783 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 784

[Heidi Alexander] impact of their own cuts on economic development services in councils, which, as we all know, are a non- and councillors, or even the general public, because statutory service. I know that difficult decisions are what we have before us is a system with a whole range of having to be taken. My local authority lost a town baselines, tariffs, top-ups, levies, set-asides and safety centre management team, which was a liaison point net payments. between the business community and the council. That happened precisely because the Government imposed Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend mentioned the issue unfair cuts on local authorities in Lewisham to the tune of setting the baseline. It is absolutely crucial that we of £80 million over the next three years out of a get that right, so that local authorities are not put at an £270 million revenue budget. immediate disadvantage. She talked about the tariffs When the Secretary of State came before the Select and top-up system. However, the introduction of the Committee in September last year, I questioned him new system is also predicated on every local authority closely about what he anticipated local authorities would in the country having the same council tax base and the do differently from what they are doing now to encourage same ability to raise income from council tax if it faces a economic growth and development in their areas as a reduction in its business rates. Local authorities such as result of this proposal. I argued that these measures Tameside—where more than 90% of the properties are were being rushed through, that we need more time and in band A or B—do not have the same ability to raise that the Government need to be clearer about what they extra income from council tax, should they lose out on are doing. Let me share with the Committee what the the business rate formula. Secretary of State said to me when I questioned him in the Select Committee. I had to question him three times. Heidi Alexander: My hon. Friend makes a very fair I was asking a specific question about what local authorities point, and if I am correct, those on our Front Bench would do differently. The Secretary of State said: have tabled amendments for debate later that deal with exactly that point. “I think they would see the reward.” We need to take longer to scrutinise the Bill and for I said: the proposals within it to come into force, because I “No. What would they do?” would contest that this Government do not know whether He then said: they are coming or going in relation to local government finance and the retention of business rates, or how this “Please do not badger me like this; I am a sensitive man.” proposal will stimulate growth in local economies. [Interruption.] Well, the Minister says that it was a joke, but I can tell him that the Secretary of State’s Mr Kevan Jones: What is clear from the Bill is that the following paragraph most certainly was a joke. To be Secretary of State will not only retain but increase his honest, it was a complete load of nonsense. The Secretary powers to interfere in local government finance. The of State could not answer my question, and he started question of how a future Secretary of State should use to talk about sea shanties. I think this cuts to the those powers will be of great concern to many councils. heart—[Interruption.] I know, it was mad; I could not fathom it at all, to be honest. 2.30 pm My point is that Ministers are not clear about what they expect local authorities to change as a result of the Heidi Alexander: I think it will be, and that very point new system of local government financing. They may was made last week. The Government claim to be have started with the best will in the world, but we have localising but they are, in effect, centralising. a hugely convoluted and complex system that, as I said I thought one of the most telling points on Second earlier, contains a whole series of assumptions about Reading last week related to where the Government are baselines, about which authorities are tariff authorities coming from with this Bill and what they understand and which are top-ups, about how much the set aside is local authorities to be doing to promote economic going to be and for how long it will apply, about how development. The most telling point was when the much the levies will be, about who decides on what shadow Secretary of State stood up to expose this counts as disproportionate gain, and so forth. The Government’s inconsistencies on what local authorities position we are left in is vague, opaque and no clearer are doing currently. He pointed out that one document than under our current system. published by the Government said: “We know that local authorities are keen to grow their local economies”, John Healey: My hon. Friend is making a powerful while another said: case about the volatility, the unpredictability and the rogue factors that can throw out revenue from a business “local authorities are generally reluctant to...promote economic rate base. Is not the real argument for delaying the growth”—[Official Report, 10 January 2012; Vol. 538, c. 91.] commencement of these provisions connected to that, The Government are speaking with a forked tongue on combined with the fact that 2013-14, when this system this issue, and if the rationale is not clear, why are we is supposed to come into place, is also year three of going through this process of rushing to get this measure local councils having to deal with the spending review on the statute book and forcing local authorities to settlement introduced by this Government? The finances implement a scheme that might not have the impact on are very tight, so predictability and certainty will be key local economic growth that the Government want? to councils planning their way through that. Those are I think the Government are unclear about what local the really powerful arguments that my hon. Friend is authorities are doing now to promote economic making to justify putting back the commencement, as development, and I think they are unclear about the recommended by our Front-Bench team. 785 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 786

Heidi Alexander: My right hon. Friend expresses the Heidi Alexander: I completely agree with my hon. case incredibly well; I agree with everything he said. Friend. I tried on Second Reading to make some of Have we not seen examples in this Parliament of the those points. Local economies grow because of a range Government taking a pause—taking a break—and saying, of factors, including transport and the availability and “This is quite a complex piece of legislation”? I am type of land—it is not all about what a local authority is referring to the Health and Social Care Bill. While this doing. One can argue that a local authority should Bill might not be as sexy—I do not really think that the foster economic growth through its planning policies proposed changes to the NHS are in any way sexy; and decisions, but the vast majority of councils across indeed, I think they are destructive and very the country do that already. The partial retention of controversial—these proposals are very controversial as business rates will not stimulate local authorities to well. I suggest that the Government pause and listen to think, “Hang on, we need to look at our planning what local authorities are saying. policies to decide what more we can do to foster economic growth.” John Healey: My hon. Friend amplifies her case. On Second Reading, she told the House something from George Hollingbery: As I mentioned on Second Reading, which this Committee would benefit. I believe she pointed I had exactly that reaction from Havant borough council, out that the ninth largest business in her borough was which is by no means a wealthy council. When I explained the local police station, while the biggest business rate the changes, it was enthusiastic and said explicitly, “We payer was a business with a small office above a bowling will now have to re-examine how we plan. We will have alley, which happened to be the national headquarters to think about what we will do to stimulate business.” It of a national firm. That illustrated perfectly how contingent was excited and believed that the proposal would make a local council’s business rate take is on accidents and a difference to its policies towards businesses in the other contingencies of business location and so forth. It local area. showed how unpredictable and volatile the business rate stream can be. Heidi Alexander: I have not had the same reaction Heidi Alexander: I was not going to repeat my comments from my local authority, although the hon. Gentleman on Second Reading, but my right hon. Friend tempts and I represent very different parts of the country. If me into reiterating some of my remarks about the the Government’s proposal prompts local authorities to differing ability of different councils to promote and think more positively about what they can do, that is all develop their local economies. Sometimes the business well and good, but it is not the whole answer. I would rate take will be dependent on a whole range of different also urge caution, as developments need to be appropriate. things, not just on what a local authority is or is not The benefits of increased business rates as a result of doing. I suggest that Ministers go back to their geography new commercial development, arguably in unsuitable lessons and learn what we all learned at school about locations, might drive more local authorities to grant why businesses locate in different parts of the country planning permission for unsuitable developments. We and how success can breed success so that areas with a need the right development in the right place, with local large business rate are likely to grow much faster than government financed in a way that allows it to provide those with a smaller rate. I know that the Government the services needed by the local population. propose to check disproportionate growth and the effect of having a larger business base to start with, but it is Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend is getting to the undoubtedly the case that different parts of the country heart of why a pause is needed for deliberation on the have different abilities to attract and grow businesses. possible impacts across the country of such far-reaching The Government’s policies are making those differences changes: some local authorities might have an over-reliance even more explicit. Last year saw the National Insurance on one sector in developing economic regeneration Contributions Bill, which gives a national insurance plans. In my local authority, Tameside, the largest business holiday to small businesses that are starting up outside rate take is from IKEA, the second largest is from London and the south-east, so it is not really a level Morrisons, and the third largest is from the Crown playing field for local authorities. A small business Point North retail development in Denton. The three setting up in, say, Middlesbrough or Birmingham might main beneficiaries of the proposal would therefore be be able to get a tax break, while a similar business retail developments. There is no capacity for more retail setting up in Lewisham might be operating in exactly on such a scale in Tameside without destroying the the same type of area, employing exactly the same market across Greater Manchester, of which Tameside number of people with the same turnover and the same is an integral part. profit margins, yet not get such a break. Is that company as likely to locate in an area where there is a tax break as Heidi Alexander: My hon. Friend is right to ask in one where there is not, like London? whether the proposal will result in the development and business growth that the country needs. There are Alison Seabeck: My hon. Friend makes her point only so many supermarkets and out-of-town retail well. The Government’s left hand does not know what centres that the country needs. It was suggested on their right hand is doing. Let us consider transport Second Reading that the kind of economic growth that policy and the potential impact of transport infrastructure we would ideally like has a lower business rate take. investment in benefiting one area over another. No In my constituency, I am struck by the small high-speed rail link is proposed for Plymouth, for example. companies that start up in people’s homes—Lewisham Even though Plymouth is struggling and needs good does not have large tracts of land where businesses are transport interconnections, the money is not going there. located. The Government need to think hard about the Such issues are hugely important in businesses’ decisions development that the proposal would stimulate. I support about where to locate or expand. the amendment. 787 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 788

2.45 pm On Second Reading, the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) spoke about the Layfield Mr Mike Hancock: Like many Members, I was report. I remember hearing Frank Layfield express his disappointed by how the proposal has been handled. views on local government finance. At the time of his One reason why I voted against the Bill on Second report, we all thought that it would be the turning Reading was that I felt it unfair that something as point, that there would be proper transparency about important and precious as local government should be local government financing, and that all local authorities, treated in such a cavalier way. Rather than being dealt irrespective of where they were in the country, would be with on the Floor of the House, a Bill of such size able to say, “We get a fair deal from Government.” It warrants close scrutiny in Committee, including oral was said that everyone would know the formula for the evidence sessions. I am delighted, Mr Amess, that you funding of local government, but here we are, nearly are prepared to take to the usual channels the important 40 years on, and it is still hidden in mystique. The Bill proposal that the evidence that has been submitted perpetuates that situation although the formula should should be offered to all Members of the House. not be anything other than transparent, and council During my 40 years’ experience of local authorities, and business rate payers demand that transparency. I every Government have used local government as an am at a loss to understand why the Government, whom excuse. Time after time, they have talked about devolving I support, are not prepared to give local government the power, but they have devolved nothing more than blame, trust that it deserves, and reveal how they are calculating and responsibility without resources. That has plagued the formula. local government for four decades. I regret that once I do not want to see the disparity that was referred to again a matter as important as the future of local by the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) government finance is being bulldozed through the between his city and the city of Portsmouth, because I House in this way. It is unfair, and it will lead to great believe that the problems of poor people in my city and problems. those who are striving to keep their businesses alive are the same as those faced by his constituents. We need an Ministers cannot begin to understand how difficult equal share of the resources that are available to local times are for local administrations that have to put government, but they must be decided on the basis of a together a budget for not one but three years. As we formula that is readily available for examination. Such a have heard, implementation will come when the third formula does not exist at present, and unfortunately the year of the round of cuts will bite deepest in many local Bill does not make me feel at all enthusiastic about the authorities. Do Ministers truly believe that a local authority possibility that it will exist in the future. For that such as mine, Portsmouth, which daily challenges the reason, I have grave reservations about my ability to market to bring inward investment to the city, is not support it at any stage. doing all it can to make it clear that we are open for business and actively to support economic development Mr Raynsford: Let me first draw attention to my projects? We would welcome anyone to come and see interests as declared in the Register of Members’ Financial what the city has to offer. It is an insult to local Interests, and specifically to my role as a columnist for government to suggest that such activity is not happening, the Municipal Journal—the MJ. and I resent being party to a coalition that is giving that I hope and believe that when the Minister sums up, impression. I am surprised, to say the least, at the he will have to reflect on the fact that every Member comments from the Local Government Association, who has spoken—with the sole exception of the hon. and disappointed that it is not being more forceful in Member for Poole (Mr Syms), to whose contribution I defending the rights of local authorities and challenging shall return in a moment—has expressed real reservations this type of legislation. about the timetable that is being adopted, in the context I hope that there is still time for Ministers to think of both parliamentary consideration of the Bill and again. I chaired Committee proceedings on the Health implementation of the measures contained in it. That is and Social Care Bill, and was delighted at the end of fairly remarkable, given that it was supposed to be a those Committee proceedings, which were the longest flagship Bill granting local government more freedom, since 1997, that the Government gave a commitment to and a measure that local government should welcome. the House and the Committee that they would take Indeed, the hon. Member for Poole, whom I have time to think again. The implications of much of the known for many years and for whom I have a great deal Bill leave too many unanswered questions. There is no of respect, made that the key point of his argument. He detail about how the safety net will be implemented and seemed to be saying, “This is a step in the right direction: how such judgments will be made. We are told that local let us get on with it, because it gives more discretion to authorities will be able to apply to be beneficiaries of local government.”The hon. Gentleman must wonder—as, the safety net procedures, but not when they have to indeed, I hope Ministers will wonder—why, if the Bill is make that application, how long a decision will take, or of such benefit to local government, local government exactly when or how the money will materialise. Such is so apprehensive about it. He must wonder why Members questions would have been dealt with in Committee in on his own side of the House, albeit on the Liberal greater detail. Ministers would have been able to give Democrat Benches, have been so critical of the timetable. members of the Committee detailed responses to questions. Let us think about that. However, three days’ consideration on the Floor of the It is not just the organisation representing London House does not give experts in the Department enough councils, which happens to be Labour-controlled at time to brief Ministers properly to answer legitimate present, that has been highly critical of the timetable points raised by hon. Members. That cannot be the and has urged delay. I must remind the hon. Member right way to deal with as important a matter as local for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher), who suggested government finance. that the Local Government Association was wholly in 789 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 790 favour of rapid action, that in its evidence it specifically Mr Raynsford: There are certainly no details about supported an amendment that would delay implementation how the compensation arrangements and the safety net of the benefit changes until 2014. Even the LGA, a procedure will work. Nor is there any indication that Conservative-controlled body, has expressed strong central Government are prepared to accept that they reservations about the timetable, while local government are putting local authorities in an impossible position experts from whom we would normally expect to hear by proposing that they should take all the downside risk in evidence sessions are amazingly critical. of a serious increase in demand for council tax benefit A week ago there was a very good article in Public in any one year which they cannot themselves have Finance by Sarah Philips, who was an adviser to the anticipated. Lyons inquiry and knows the issues thoroughly and What will happen to a local authority if a local deeply. She made some telling comments, such as these: business closes? What will happen if there is a serious “The government’s repeated use of the term ‘local’ in relation rise in unemployment in the district, and as a consequence to the planned changes hasn’t been enough to persuade councils a large number of additional claims for council tax that these will be an improvement. Current local government benefit are received? The authority will have no safety funding is incomprehensible, but these proposals taken together net. All that the Government propose is the possibility are even more complex and opaque. They have been criticised by of some sharing or pooling arrangement with councils, commentators and the communities and local government neighbourhood authorities to offset the risk. That is not select committee—on most of the criteria the government set for itself and others… ‘Rich’ councils were looking forward to keeping compensating local government; it is local government most of their business rates and being free of central control. having to help itself out in order to cope with the risk ‘Poorer’ councils were hoping for some continuation of equalisation, that is being transferred to it by central Government. to recognise the huge range of needs and council tax revenues and their limited scope to increase business rates.” Alison Seabeck: I must first draw Members’ attention Many of my hon. Friends have made the same points to my indirect interest in the interest declared by my during the debate. Sarah Philips continues: right hon. Friend. I should have done that earlier, but I did not get around to it. “The proposed tariff and top-ups and central levy limit incentives for growth, yet do not give much hope that services in ‘poorer’ Might not a pooling arrangement lead to different areas can continue undiminished—or that it will be possible to problems popping up in different authorities at different prevent a two-tier system. times during the year? Exactly when and how will the The proposals acknowledge only implicitly the risks of localised safety net begin to operate in all those individual instances, funding. In Europe and Australia, many smaller authorities and and will authorities really want to share such a degree those in poorer areas have struggled to provide quality services of risk? and many have gone bankrupt or merged. The plans threaten the technical and financial viability of small district councils. Losing Mr Raynsford: There are two different elements. One Housing Benefit will remove an economy of scale with processing is the safety net system, which the Government have the council tax support—limiting the ability to maintain a corporate outlined without giving us the details, and which is centre.” designed to cope with circumstances in which there is a Those are just some of the comments that have been serious reduction in non-domestic rate revenue because made by a real expert on local government finance—an of changes beyond a local authority’s control. That officer who is clearly extremely anxious about the safety net exists, at least in principle. There might also implications of the Bill. I hope that Government Members be changes in benefit demand. Indeed, both of those who have suggested that we should get on with it will elements might arise, as there might be a reduction in pause to think about the serious risks attached to such business rates because of the closure of a business and action. an increase in benefit claims because the people employed The hon. Member for Meon Valley (George Hollingbery) by that business are now out of work and therefore said in an intervention that local authorities had had to require help with their council tax. There could therefore cope with annual changes in settlements in the past. As be a double whammy. There is no safety net from was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Government to help local authorities with the second North Durham (Mr Jones), our Government changed element. Instead, there is only the suggestion that there that and adopted a three-year cycle, but in any event might be some pooling of risk, which is an unacceptable there is a fundamental difference between an annual response to a very serious problem. change in the settlement—which affects the actual amount of grant that an authority will receive for that year—and 3pm a complete change in the administrative system. The Mr Kevan Jones: I agree with my right hon. Friend. separation between council tax benefit and universal There is also no detail as to how the pooling of risk will credit will require the establishment of a whole new work, such as whether it will be a voluntary system or administration and an entirely different system for the enforced by the Government. In my region of the making and processing of applications, along with different north-east, Newcastle and Sunderland would probably computer programmes to determine eligibility and provide pool together only if they were forced to do so by for the granting of discounts. Government diktat. Mr Kevan Jones: Another element contributing to the Mr Raynsford: I am not going to go into the relations uncertainty that will characterise the proposed new between different local authorities. My hon. Friend the system is the possibility of fluctuations in business rates Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) and I throughout the year. The Secretary of State implied are constituency neighbours and I am sure our local that councils would somehow be compensated if a large authorities would want to co-operate in the most friendly employer disappeared—Alcan in Northumberland, for way, although I am not sure whether that attitude instance, is unfortunately being closed—but the Bill would be replicated by all authorities in other parts of contains no details about that compensation. the country. 791 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 792

[Mr Raynsford] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill): It is I was responding to the comments of the hon. Member a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Amess. You and I for Meon Valley by observing that this change is much know something of local government from our experiences more complex than just an annual change in the settlement. of it over the years. We therefore know that the issue of Substantial administrative change is involved, too. Capita local government finance has been around the houses, is a company that provides a lot of revenue services and as we say in our part of the world, for a very long time. undertakes benefit work for local authorities so it might At long last, something is being done about it. be expected to see business opportunities in this change, I say to the hon. Member for Warrington North but it is sounding the alarm about the risks involved in (Helen Jones) that I do not accept the premise that trying to programme this major change on an impossibly underpins her arguments. Throughout this debate the tight timetable. Opposition have raised specious arguments and engaged A lot of detail is involved in the specification of the in manufactured indignation. The reality is that the scheme, and the Government will impose the requirements Government are bringing forward a serious and important that there are to be no losses for certain categories of reform, which the Opposition are seeking to delay. That participant, no inconsistencies in respect of the universal is not in the interests of local government, who suffer credit, and no disincentives to work. It is difficult to see under the thoroughly unsatisfactory, opaque and unfair how that can be achieved if there is to be a 10% cut in system Labour bequeathed, which denied local authorities the overall council tax benefit. Pensioners are to be the opportunity to have a portion of the business rates entirely protected and they represent more than a third localised for their benefit. The Opposition want to of recipients, so it is hard to see how the other delay the introduction of a valuable growth incentive recipients, those of working age who are in employment for local government, which would also encourage national or looking for work, will not be subject to cuts. How growth, so be in the interests of the national economy. can a commercial company, such as a software firm, Helen Jones: Will the Minister give way? that is helping local authorities to prepare to administer these schemes possibly get arrangements properly in Robert Neill: Let me make a little more progress first. place under such circumstances? That is the real challenge It is a little cheeky of Opposition Members to say to the Government. that this change is being rushed forward. Much of the As I said on Second Reading, the Government are first part of the hon. Lady’s opening speech was taken risking a repeat of the fiasco that occurred when the up with a complaint that somehow less scrutiny of a Bill housing benefit scheme was first introduced by a is possible if it is considered on the Floor of the House, Conservative Government in 1982-83. That was when every Member can participate, than if it is sent rushed. The detailed specification and implementation upstairs into Committee. Is there a precedent for that, arrangements were not available in time and there was however? Yes, as a matter of fact there is, and it was chaos across the country. There were appalling under the previous Government. Their Digital Economy examples of people being left without money for weeks Act 2010 had 50 clauses, three of which were taken on and months, and people facing eviction from private the Floor of the House. That did not happen in the homes because they were not getting the benefit they early part of the Session either; instead, that contentious ought to have had. There was huge hardship, and there Bill was considered in the wash-up. I will not take any were also serious problems in authorities throughout lessons from the hon. Lady’s specious arguments, therefore. the country. Helen Jones: As the Minister argues that it is important I say in all sincerity to the Government that they are to get these provisions through quickly to provide incentives taking a very serious risk in pressing ahead with these for economic development, what does he think local changes to a very tight timetable without giving Members authorities would be doing after they are introduced the opportunity to scrutinise and question the detailed that they are not doing now? arrangements, such as the specification of the scheme Robert Neill: The hon. Lady fails to grasp the basic and the safety net. We are not being given the opportunity principle underlying the Bill. The problem at present is to test the provisions so as to find any weaknesses, yet that local authorities have no incentive to encourage local government will be expected to implement them to growth. Instead, they potentially have a burden. They an impossibly tight timetable. have no ability to grow the tax base. I say to the hon. Member for Poole that the Opposition are not using the timetable issue as an excuse. There is a Mr Kevan Jones rose— genuine anxiety that is shared across local government. Robert Neill: I will give way again shortly. We must remember that the change will affect not only Unfortunately, throughout this debate Opposition local authorities but their residents. Some 6 million Members have articulated their old mindset. It is a people receive council tax benefit, which is one of the mindset that does down local government, and I find largest numbers of recipients of any category of benefit that surprising given the experience some Opposition in the country. All these people are being put at risk by Members have of that. They do not seem to recognise the Government’s unwise timetable. that most local authorities want to advance their local I urge the Minister to give further thought to that economies even though they currently get no revenue point, and to heed the Select Committee’s sound advice benefit from doing so. We will make a key difference by to defer implementation for a year. I also know that giving them a tool to get such benefits. Liberal Democrat Members have reservations, and I Several hon. Members rose— therefore urge them to do the right thing by joining us in opposing this rushed and unwise timetable. Robert Neill: I give way to my hon. Friend. 793 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 794

Mr Syms: Is not one of the major changes that there market and demand where there is none, although will be an incentive for ordinary rate payers and electors perhaps he does not get that fact, and so neither of the to support a particular scheme? There is currently no things he mentions would occur. Our approach enables incentive for them to do so because there is no financial and incentivises local authorities to work much more benefit for people who contribute to local government. closely with their business communities on an ongoing basis. Robert Neill: My hon. Friend is entirely right. It is very surprising to hear such a degree of criticism Unfortunately, under the previous Government there from Labour Members, because they need only look at was a belief that we had to create an increasingly what is done in most of the United Kingdom’s competitor centralised and complex system to deliver results. The countries to see that, in general, a closer alignment of party that is criticising us now brought in capping and local funding mechanisms with local business growth the comprehensive area assessment, which trammelled advantages the local economy. That is a basic proposition local authorities rather than freed them. I can understand, and they just do not seem to want to take it on board. however, why this is a sensitive topic for Opposition Members. In their 1997 election manifesto they said Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Unfortunately, they would localise the business rate, and they spent this debate seems to have got muddled and become a 13 years not doing so. Some of the principal architects discussion of two lots of dates. One relates to the of that commitment are sitting on the Opposition Benches retention of business rates, a move which I wholeheartedly in today’s debate, so I can understand that they might support; I believe that we should get on with it as fast as have a bit of a guilty conscience. we can. However, we also need to address the issue raised by the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Heidi Alexander rose— Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) about the implementation of Robert Neill: I shall give way to the hon. Lady, as she systems to provide council tax benefit. Hon. Members may not have been here during that time—although I from all parts of the House, and those in local government, do not entirely exempt her from what I said. have genuine concerns about that implementation and about the ability of local authorities to develop the Heidi Alexander: I certainly was not here when the systems to provide the localisation of council tax benefit. previous Administration were in government, but I Will the Minister give an answer on that issue? would like to give the Minister another opportunity to answer the question put to him by my hon. Friend the Robert Neill: I shall deal with both those points and Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) from the give a little detail as to why the suggestion that we are Front Bench about what exactly a local authority would rushing is not well-founded. It is worth remembering be doing differently under these proposals from what that the Government consulted widely on this proposal, they are doing now. If this is about planning policy, and let me deal first with the point about business rate what evidence does he have to suggest that granting retention. permissions for extra commercial floor space results in Last year, we set out a detailed consultation document an increased business growth take? outlining our proposals, and the local government information unit has recognised that we have amended Robert Neill: The hon. Lady must simply not have a number of our proposals on tariffs, set-asides and been listening to my hon. Friend the Member for Poole top-ups to reflect those matters. We issued eight highly (Mr Syms), who made the point perfectly that our detailed technical papers, to which we received some proposal is a desirable and a good thing. I know it is 461 substantial responses. The idea that there has not difficult for her to get this point, but two things are been very full engagement with the local government involved. First, we are giving an incentive back to local sector simply does not hold water. Indeed, there have authorities. Secondly, we are giving local authorities an been collaborations and discussions between officials of additional tool in the box of their financial levers. I my Department and the local authority organisations would have thought that she would have recognised that throughout the process. To deal with the design of the from her long experience in local government. systems and the regulations that go with them we have set up an official-level working group, which includes Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab) rose— representatives of the Department, the Local Government Robert Neill: I will give way once to the hon. Gentleman Association, the Society of District Council Treasurers, and then I shall make some progress. the Society of County Treasurers and the other financial bodies—so the point is specifically being worked on. Graham Jones: The Minister talks about business The timetable is challenging, but the ability to return a growth, but given the changes in the national planning proportion of the business rates to local government is policy framework does he agree that this measure may a really important tool, not only to give local authorities be an incentive to develop commercial premises on greater resilience in their funding streams, but for ensuring greenfield sites, more so than in the past, and that it national growth. might override planning priorities? Graham Jones rose— Robert Neill: Absolutely not, and to see that the hon. Gentleman has only to think about two things, the first Robert Neill: I have given way to the hon. Gentleman of which is planning policy. Any planning application once already. has to be in accord with the planning policies that are It is also worth remembering, in the context of other set out—both in the local plan and in our new national points made, that we are sticking to the existing timetable planning policy framework—which give protection against that applies to the local government finance settlement ideas such as he mentions. Secondly, we cannot create a process. I understand the frustrations of my hon. Friends 795 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 796

[Robert Neill] The Committee divided: Ayes 246, Noes 316. Division No. 424] [3.18 pm the Members for Bradford East (Mr Ward) and for Portsmouth South (Mr Hancock) about the suffering AYES that everyone in local government has undergone in the Abbott, Ms Diane Dodds, rh Mr Nigel past few years, but I do not think that keeping the Abrahams, Debbie Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. current flawed floor blocks and formula grant model Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Donohoe, Mr Brian H. for another year would benefit anyone. I can certainly Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Doran, Mr Frank assure them that we will work with the local government Alexander, Heidi Dowd, Jim sector and the professional members and officers as we Ali, Rushanara Doyle, Gemma go forward. Allen, Mr Graham Dromey, Jack Before the new scheme is introduced in April 2013, Anderson, Mr David Dugher, Michael local authorities will be consulted on their baseline Ashworth, Jonathan Eagle, Ms Angela funding at the end of 2012, and after a debate in this Austin, Ian Efford, Clive House, where scrutiny will be provided, they will receive Bailey, Mr Adrian Elliott, Julie Bain, Mr William Ellman, Mrs Louise their final settlement early in 2013. So there is no Balls, rh Ed Engel, Natascha change to the current timelines that local authorities Banks, Gordon Esterson, Bill have to work on. Of course there is plenty of precedent Barron, rh Mr Kevin Evans, Chris for developing regulations as the Bill is taken forward, Bayley, Hugh Farrelly, Paul and they, in turn, will be subject to scrutiny in this Beckett, rh Margaret Field, rh Mr Frank House. This is an enabling Bill, just as the Local Begg, Dame Anne Fitzpatrick, Jim Government Finance Bill was in 1988; we are following Bell, Sir Stuart Flello, Robert the precedent. Benn, rh Hilary Flint, rh Caroline Benton, Mr Joe Flynn, Paul 3.15 pm Berger, Luciana Fovargue, Yvonne Betts, Mr Clive Francis, Dr Hywel Helen Jones: This interesting debate has had some Blackman-Woods, Roberta Gapes, Mike detailed contributions from my hon. and right hon. Blears, rh Hazel Gardiner, Barry Friends, many of whom have extensive experience in Blomfield, Paul Gilmore, Sheila local government. All we have really heard from Blunkett, rh Mr David Glass, Pat Government Members is the hon. Member for Poole Brennan, Kevin Glindon, Mrs Mary (Mr Syms) saying, “These are the normal Opposition Brown, rh Mr Gordon Godsiff, Mr Roger tactics.” It is quite right for an Opposition to highlight Brown, Lyn Goodman, Helen flaws in a Bill, and this Bill is full of flaws. The Minister Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Greatrex, Tom Brown, Mr Russell Green, Kate gets very excitable but he has not provided an answer on Bryant, Chris Greenwood, Lilian these flaws. He will not provide an answer as to why it is Buck, Ms Karen Griffith, Nia so important to get these provisions up and running in Burden, Richard Gwynne, Andrew 2013 and what local authorities would do differently in Burnham, rh Andy Hain, rh Mr Peter terms of economic development then from what they Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hamilton, Mr David do now. Campbell, Mr Alan Hamilton, Fabian Campbell, Mr Gregory Hancock, Mr Mike Robert Neill: Why did the hon. Lady’s Government Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hanson, rh Mr David never follow through on their election pledge and localise Caton, Martin Harman, rh Ms Harriet the business rate, when they had 13 years to do so? Chapman, Mrs Jenny Harris, Mr Tom Clark, Katy Havard, Mr Dai Helen Jones: Coming from a member of the party Clarke, rh Mr Tom Healey, rh John that nationalised the business rates in the first place, Coaker, Vernon Hepburn, Mr Stephen that question shows real cheek. It is no good the hon. Connarty, Michael Hermon, Lady Gentleman getting so aggravated now when his party Cooper, Rosie Heyes, David Cooper, rh Yvette Hillier, Meg nationalised the rates in the first place. Corbyn, Jeremy Hilling, Julie The Minister will not answer questions on other Crausby, Mr David Hodge, rh Margaret points, either. He will not answer the question about the Creagh, Mary Hodgson, Mrs Sharon lack of certainty for local authorities in the provisions. Creasy, Stella Hoey, Kate He knows that it might not be possible to bring them in Cruddas, Jon Hopkins, Kelvin on time, and so does the Secretary of State, as clause 1 Cryer, John Howarth, rh Mr George retains the power to delay implementation. If the Cunningham, Alex Hunt, Tristram Government were confident about being able to bring Cunningham, Mr Jim Irranca-Davies, Huw the provisions in at the right time, they would not need Cunningham, Tony James, Mrs Siân C. that power. Curran, Margaret Jamieson, Cathy Dakin, Nic Jarvis, Dan My hon. Friends have made the case very clearly for Danczuk, Simon Johnson, rh Alan how complex and opaque the proposed change is, for Darling, rh Mr Alistair Johnson, Diana the risks it poses to the whole local government system David, Mr Wayne Jones, Graham and for the unforeseen consequences that might result. I De Piero, Gloria Jones, Helen have heard nothing from the Minister to change our Denham, rh Mr John Jones, Mr Kevan minds, so we will therefore seek to press the amendment Dobbin, Jim Jones, Susan Elan to a Division. Dobson, rh Frank Jowell, rh Tessa Question put, That the amendment be made. Docherty, Thomas Joyce, Eric 797 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 798

Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Birtwistle, Gordon Freeman, George Keeley, Barbara Reed, Mr Jamie Blackman, Bob Freer, Mike Kendall, Liz Reeves, Rachel Blunt, Mr Crispin Fullbrook, Lorraine Khan, rh Sadiq Reynolds, Emma Boles, Nick Fuller, Richard Lammy, rh Mr David Reynolds, Jonathan Bone, Mr Peter Gale, Sir Roger Lavery, Ian Riordan, Mrs Linda Bottomley, Sir Peter Garnier, Mark Lazarowicz, Mark Ritchie, Ms Margaret Bradley, Karen Gauke, Mr David Leslie, Chris Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Brady, Mr Graham George, Andrew Lewis, Mr Ivan Rotheram, Steve Bray, Angie Gibb, Mr Nick Lloyd, Tony Roy, Mr Frank Brazier, Mr Julian Gilbert, Stephen Long, Naomi Roy, Lindsay Bridgen, Andrew Glen, John Love, Mr Andrew Ruane, Chris Brine, Steve Goldsmith, Zac Lucas, Caroline Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Brooke, Annette Goodwill, Mr Robert Lucas, Ian Sarwar, Anas Browne, Mr Jeremy Gove, rh Michael MacShane, rh Mr Denis Seabeck, Alison Bruce, Fiona Graham, Richard Mactaggart, Fiona Sharma, Mr Virendra Bruce, rh Malcolm Grant, Mrs Helen Mahmood, Mr Khalid Sheerman, Mr Barry Buckland, Mr Robert Gray, Mr James Mahmood, Shabana Sheridan, Jim Burley, Mr Aidan Grayling, rh Chris Malhotra, Seema Shuker, Gavin Burns, Conor Green, Damian Mann, John Simpson, David Burrowes, Mr David Greening, rh Justine Marsden, Mr Gordon Skinner, Mr Dennis Burstow, Paul Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCabe, Steve Slaughter, Mr Andy Burt, Alistair Griffiths, Andrew McCann, Mr Michael Smith, rh Mr Andrew Burt, Lorely Gummer, Ben McCarthy, Kerry Smith, Angela Byles, Dan Gyimah, Mr Sam McClymont, Gregg Smith, Nick Cable, rh Vince Halfon, Robert McCrea, Dr William Smith, Owen Cairns, Alun Hames, Duncan McDonagh, Siobhain Spellar, rh Mr John Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hammond, rh Mr Philip McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Stringer, Graham Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hammond, Stephen McDonnell, John Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Carmichael, Neil Hancock, Matthew McFadden, rh Mr Pat Tami, Mark Carswell, Mr Douglas Hands, Greg McGovern, Jim Thomas, Mr Gareth Cash, Mr William Harper, Mr Mark Chishti, Rehman Harrington, Richard McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Thornberry, Emily McKechin, Ann Chope, Mr Christopher Harris, Rebecca Timms, rh Stephen McKenzie, Mr Iain Clappison, Mr James Hart, Simon Trickett, Jon McKinnell, Catherine Clark, rh Greg Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Turner, Karl Mearns, Ian Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Heald, Oliver Twigg, Derek Michael, rh Alun Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heath, Mr David Miliband, rh David Twigg, Stephen Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hemming, John Miller, Andrew Umunna, Mr Chuka Collins, Damian Hendry, Charles Mitchell, Austin Vaz, rh Keith Colvile, Oliver Herbert, rh Nick Moon, Mrs Madeleine Vaz, Valerie Crabb, Stephen Hinds, Damian Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Walley, Joan Crockart, Mike Hoban, Mr Mark Morris, Grahame M. Watson, Mr Tom Crouch, Tracey Hollingbery, George (Easington) Watts, Mr Dave Davey, Mr Edward Hollobone, Mr Philip Mudie, Mr George Whitehead, Dr Alan Davies, David T. C. Holloway, Mr Adam Munn, Meg Wicks, rh Malcolm (Monmouth) Hopkins, Kris Murphy, rh Mr Jim Williamson, Chris Davies, Glyn Horwood, Martin Murphy, rh Paul Wilson, Phil Davies, Philip Howarth, Mr Gerald Murray, Ian Winnick, Mr David de Bois, Nick Howell, John Nandy, Lisa Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Dinenage, Caroline Hughes, rh Simon Nash, Pamela Wood, Mike Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Huppert, Dr Julian O’Donnell, Fiona Woodcock, John Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hurd, Mr Nick Dorries, Nadine Jackson, Mr Stewart Onwurah, Chi Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Osborne, Sandra Doyle-Price, Jackie James, Margot Wright, David Owen, Albert Drax, Richard Javid, Sajid Wright, Mr Iain Paisley, Ian Duddridge, James Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pearce, Teresa Tellers for the Ayes: Duncan, rh Mr Alan Johnson, Gareth Pound, Stephen Tom Blenkinsop and Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Johnson, Joseph Qureshi, Yasmin Mark Hendrick Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Andrew Ellison, Jane Jones, Mr David NOES Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kawczynski, Daniel Elphicke, Charlie Kelly, Chris Adams, Nigel Barclay, Stephen Eustice, George Kirby, Simon Afriyie, Adam Barker, Gregory Evans, Graham Knight, rh Mr Greg Aldous, Peter Baron, Mr John Evennett, Mr David Kwarteng, Kwasi Andrew, Stuart Barwell, Gavin Fabricant, Michael Lamb, Norman Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bebb, Guto Fallon, Michael Lancaster, Mark Bacon, Mr Richard Bellingham, Mr Henry Farron, Tim Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Baker, Norman Benyon, Richard Featherstone, Lynne Latham, Pauline Baker, Steve Berry, Jake Field, Mark Laws, rh Mr David Baldry, Tony Bingham, Andrew Foster, rh Mr Don Leadsom, Andrea Baldwin, Harriett Binley, Mr Brian Francois, rh Mr Mark Lee, Jessica 799 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 800

Lee, Dr Phillip Reid, Mr Alan Williamson, Gavin Yeo, Mr Tim Lefroy, Jeremy Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Willott, Jenny Young, rh Sir George Leigh, Mr Edward Robertson, Mr Laurence Wilson, Mr Rob Zahawi, Nadhim Leslie, Charlotte Rogerson, Dan Wilson, Sammy Tellers for the Noes: Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rosindell, Andrew Wollaston, Dr Sarah Mark Hunter and Lewis, Brandon Rudd, Amber Wright, Simon Jeremy Wright Lewis, Dr Julian Ruffley, Mr David Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Russell, Sir Bob Lidington, rh Mr David Rutley, David Question accordingly negatived. Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sanders, Mr Adrian Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Lloyd, Stephen Sandys, Laura Bill. Lopresti, Jack Scott, Mr Lee Lord, Jonathan Selous, Andrew The Temporary Chair (Mr David Amess): Before the Luff, Peter Shannon, Jim debate starts, I should tell the Committee that I was Lumley, Karen Shapps, rh Grant fairly lax about the range of the debate that we have just Macleod, Mary Sharma, Alok had, so if hon. Members wish to contribute to the Main, Mrs Anne Shelbrooke, Alec clause stand part debate, I hope they will bear that in Maude, rh Mr Francis Shepherd, Mr Richard Maynard, Paul Simpson, Mr Keith mind. McCartney, Jason Skidmore, Chris McCartney, Karl Smith, Miss Chloe Robert Neill: I will endeavour to deal with the clause McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Henry stand part debate as swiftly as I can. Clause 1 sets up the McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Sir Robert necessary part of the scheme. As is often the way with a McPartland, Stephen Soames, rh Nicholas finance Bill, it establishes the framework, which is then McVey, Esther Soubry, Anna covered in the regulations. Schedule 1, which we shall Mensch, Louise Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline come to shortly, sets out most of the detail. I suspect Menzies, Mark Spencer, Mr Mark that the issues between us have largely been debated in Metcalfe, Stephen Stanley, rh Sir John relation to the amendment and the principle. I am Miller, Maria Stephenson, Andrew happy to respond to any points that hon. Members may Mills, Nigel Stevenson, John wish to raise. Milton, Anne Stewart, Bob Moore, rh Michael Stewart, Iain Helen Jones: The Minister is right to say that the Mordaunt, Penny Stewart, Rory clause sets out the framework for the Bill, and that Morgan, Nicky Streeter, Mr Gary earlier we debated most of the issues between us. I Morris, Anne Marie Stride, Mel welcome the fact that the regulations will be subject to Morris, David Stuart, Mr Graham the affirmative resolution procedure in the House. That Morris, James Stunell, Andrew Mosley, Stephen Sturdy, Julian is helpful, but we stick to our view that the Government Mowat, David Swayne, rh Mr Desmond are trying to introduce the provisions in the Bill too fast Mundell, rh David Swinson, Jo and that there is still a great deal of uncertainty for local Munt, Tessa Swire, rh Mr Hugo councils. We will debate those issues on further amendments Murray, Sheryll Syms, Mr Robert so I shall not detain the Committee now. Murrison, Dr Andrew Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Neill, Robert Teather, Sarah Annette Brooke: I want to place on record, in the Newmark, Mr Brooks Thurso, John debate on clause 1, how important it is to reform local Newton, Sarah Timpson, Mr Edward government finance, to do it in a timely fashion and to Nokes, Caroline Tomlinson, Justin do it in such a way that it both incentivises and equalises. Norman, Jesse Tredinnick, David Those principles are firmly embodied in the framework. Nuttall, Mr David Truss, Elizabeth We have heard it said that the retention of business rates Offord, Mr Matthew Turner, Mr Andrew will not incentivise. I wonder why the previous Government Ollerenshaw, Eric Tyrie, Mr Andrew introduced LABGI—the local authority business growth Opperman, Guy Uppal, Paul incentives scheme—which rewarded local government Paice, rh Mr James Vara, Mr Shailesh Parish, Neil Vickers, Martin for business expansion, but not very efficiently. It was Patel, Priti Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa not a built-in system, which has to be better. I therefore Paterson, rh Mr Owen Walker, Mr Charles found some of the comments odd, in the light of that Pawsey, Mark Walker, Mr Robin recent policy. Penning, Mike Wallace, Mr Ben Penrose, John Walter, Mr Robert Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): There is Percy, Andrew Ward, Mr David general consensus that the local government system of Perry, Claire Weatherley, Mike funding needs to be reviewed, but does the hon. Lady Phillips, Stephen Webb, Steve agree that people will be suspicious if that has not been Pincher, Christopher Wharton, James done through independent analysis and by people who Poulter, Dr Daniel Wheeler, Heather can be trusted to make the right decisions? That is what Prisk, Mr Mark White, Chris previous Governments have done and is exactly what Pritchard, Mark Whittaker, Craig this Government are not proposing to do. They intend Pugh, John Whittingdale, Mr John to impose a system that has not been scrutinised. Raab, Mr Dominic Wiggin, Bill Randall, rh Mr John Willetts, rh Mr David Annette Brooke: I believe the Minister explained earlier Reckless, Mark Williams, Mr Mark how the detailed proposals would be scrutinised later in Rees-Mogg, Jacob Williams, Roger the process of setting the 2013 terms of the revision. Reevell, Simon Williams, Stephen What I want to see in the end is a more transparent 801 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 802 scheme. That is extremely important, so that local councils Any assessment of the level of need in the authority shall are not continually trying to find little bits here, there include— and everywhere that they can come up and lobby about. (iv) the ranking of the local authority in the Index of We need clarity. I am pleased with the framework. Multiple Deprivation, (v) the level of unemployment within the authority’s Robert Neill: I agree with my hon. Friend the Member area, for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke). It is (vi) the proportion of adults with a limiting long-term important that we move forward. The hon. Member for illness within the authority’s area, Warrington North (Helen Jones) is right. The affirmative (vii) the number of adults in receipt of social care procedure will apply to the matters that come under the within the authority’s area, Bill. It is worth saying that the degree of transparency (viii) the number of looked-after children within the on the one hand and fairness on the other is governed authority, and by, for example, the changes to the central and local (ix) the level of child poverty within the authority’s share split, which will come through shortly, and the area.’. operation of the tariffs and top-ups. Those will be Amendment 37, page 12, line 20, at end insert— included in the local government finance report, and that too will be subject to parliamentary scrutiny in the (c) The Secretary of State must for each year, and for the usual way each year, so it is a clear and transparent subsequent two years in relation to each billing authority in England, determine an indicative share system. for the subsequent two years.’. Mr Raynsford: What circumstances led the Government Amendment 38, page 12, line 20, at end insert— to include subsection (7), which allows the Secretary of (c) the percentages referred to in (a) and (b) above shall be State to substitute a later financial year for the determined following full consultation with local implementation date of the Bill, and in what circumstances government.’. might they make use of it? Amendment 36, page 13, leave out lines 1 to 4. Robert Neill: That sort of belt-and-braces procedure Amendment 39, page 15, line 17, leave out from is not at all uncommon. It is our firm intention to press ‘must’ to end of line 19 and insert ‘prepare and publish ahead with implementation from 2013 so that local an assessment of the level of need in each local authority, authorities and the national economy can benefit from as defined in paragraph 4(c) above. The Secretary of the Bill. As my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset State must— and North Poole said, the desirability to move to a (a) lay the report containing the assessment before the more transparent system away from the existing model House at least 14 sitting days in advance of the was recognised by the Lyons inquiry, which was set up publication of the Local Government Finance Report, by the previous Government. It recommended a move and towards a localisation of the business rate, and we are (b) notify such representatives of local government as the taking an important step in that direction. Secretary of State thinks fit of the publication of the report on need and the detail of the basis of calculation Question put and agreed to. in the Local Government Finance Report.’. Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Amendment 26, page 17, line 37, at end insert— ‘(4A) The Secretary of State must also lay before the House of Schedule 1 Commons his or her assessment of the impact which any such report will have on the level of service provision in any local LOCAL RETENTION OF NON-DOMESTIC RATES authority to which it applies.

John Healey: I beg to move amendment 46, page 11, John Healey: It is a pleasure to serve on this Committee line 31, leave out ‘may not exceed’ and insert ‘should of the whole House under your chairmanship, equal’. Mr. Robertson, and that of your colleague, Mr. Amess. The Temporary Chair (John Robertson): With this it Amendment 46 is a probing amendment in an important will be convenient to discuss the following: Government group of amendments that the Committee will discuss. amendments 1 and 2. I have a number of questions for the Minister, which I hope he will be able to answer when he replies, but if Amendment 44, page 11, line 32, at end add— not, I hope that he will answer in writing, as would ‘(5) Such an amount should only be paid in place of other usually be the case. I notice that two of the amendments grants to local government if the Secretary of State is satisfied are among the 17 that the Government have already that the overall needs of local government will be met.’. tabled at this very early stage to their own Bill. In this Amendment 45, page 11, line 32, at end add— case they correct not just drafting errors, but quite ‘(5) The amount debited under subsection (3) must not be serious errors in basic sums. The Minister can speak to greater than any amount debited under subsection (3) for the those himself when he contributes to the debate. previous financial year.’. Amendment 46 and the rest of the group reflect four Amendment 19, page 12, line 20, at end insert— consistent concerns about this part of the Bill on business (c) in determining the central share and the local share for rates. First, it will create a greater uncertainty for local any relevant authority, the Secretary of State must government in its flow of funding and its ability to plan have regard to— financially, and therefore its capacity to cope with the (i) the level of need in that authority, funding squeeze now and foreseeably in the next few (ii) the likely capacity of the authority to benefit from years. It undermines an essential stability in funding for business rate growth, and sensible longer-term planning and sensible long-term (iii) the council tax base of the authority. service reform and change. 803 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 804

[John Healey] words, it will create a slush fund for the Chancellor for the first time in 2015, which incidentally is likely to be a Secondly, the amendments reflect the distrust of central general election year. Government with regard to the use of the business I have several further questions for the Minister. rates funding stream as a cash cow to help to cover the What is the projected yield from business rates in 2015 cost of failures in economic policy when revenue streams and for each of the following five years? Secondly, what from other sources fall off, as we have seen during the falls within the definition of last 12 months. “for the purposes of local government in England”? Those are the purposes for which the Bill allows the 3.45 pm Government to use any surplus yield. Thirdly, what Thirdly, they reflect unease that central Government guarantee is there that the Government will not use this will make decisions without local authorities, the people funding stream as a substitute to cover the costs of their affected or this House being properly consulted or given current funding responsibilities in policing, employment an opportunity to make their views known as part of support services, skills, national housing investment, the process. Fourthly, they reflect a concern that many universities, particularly to support innovation and research of the most important decisions in the operation of the and development, health, in particular to cover the new system will be made by central Government, rather costs of elderly people, or housing benefit? What guarantee than local government. I recognise that there is localisation is there that local business funding, via local authorities, in the Bill, but too much of it is the localisation of risk which is designed to pay for local services in the first and responsibility, rather than of resources, and too instance, will not be used to substitute for those central much of it is central Government offloading blame for Government costs? potential service cuts and service failures in future. The Bill contains a big change that is being forced The all-party Local Government Association has through too fast. It is a reform that builds unfairness stated: into the system like a ratchet. It means that in future, “What councils, their residents and local businesses want is a essential local services such as care for the elderly and fair and simple funding system that gives councils greater financial for vulnerable children, street cleaning, waste collection, autonomy, supports local services and encourages economic growth.” road maintenance, and fire and rescue services will no We all back that aspiration, but there are doubts that longer be funded on the basis of need or population, the Bill will achieve any of those aims effectively, let but on the basis of the ability to raise tax and pay for alone all of them. London Councils, which supports the the costs locally. changes in principle, is even more direct in its criticisms. Among its reservations, it states in a briefing for Members Mr Watts: If an area faces the wholesale closure of that some of its industries, that obviously creates demand “the Bill as drafted creates a fiendishly complex system in which for the local authority’s services. Is it not a fact that the level of the business rate incentive is uncertain and such a local authority will lose money by the transfer to unpredictable—this undermines entirely the Government’s aims central Government and through the loss of business of promoting local economic growth via the business rate base rates, and will therefore be less able to respond to the and delivering a clear link between local authorities and local needs that are created by the wholesale closure of those businesses.” industries, which we have seen in parts of the country? The concern at the heart of amendment 46 relates to the difference between the total payments from John Healey: My hon. Friend, as a former leader of local businesses via local authorities in respect of the St Helens council, knows a great deal about the local central share, set out in schedule 1 in proposed new government finance system and the pressures on local paragraph 2(1)(c), and the central allocation of those government. He may not have heard my right hon. funds for local government use, set out in proposed new Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich paragraph 2(4). The concern is that the difference between (Mr Raynsford) in the last debate refer to what has just those two totals will in future be taken by the Treasury. been described as a double whammy. In other words, The concern is shared by the normally cautious LGA, there may be a loss of potential income at the same time which states: as, and as a result of, the event that causes a greater “Local Government will not have access to the full real terms need and demand for the services that have to be funded growth in business rates in 2013-14 and 2014-15 through the through that revenue stream. That is a concern. mechanism of the ‘set-aside’ even though they will now use I want to ensure that the Committee is clear that this proportional shares rather than a government forecast.” is a fundamental shift in the basis of our funding However, my concern is about what will happen beyond calculations and in what local councils in England have 2014. On that point, the LGA states: to spend. The system will no longer work on the basis of “The Government’s proposals indicate that the set-aside will need. It will not take account of the fact that there are continue beyond 2015. There is little rationale for this, as the main three times as many looked-after children in South justification for the set-aside was to ensure that the scheme Tyneside as in Surrey or that there are five times as functions within the spending control totals issued in 2010”— many children in poverty in Middlesbrough as in meaning the Government’s spending review— Wokingham. It will not take into account the capacity “and therefore works alongside the deficit reduction programme. of a local area to raise resources, in particular through Continuing the set aside beyond this point reduces the incentive council tax. It will not take into account the fact that to grow business rates and acts as a form of central government Bexley and Barnsley have a similar population, but that control in a system which is designed to do the opposite.” Bexley raises £37 million more in council tax each year. That means that in future a locally raised revenue It will take no account of the fact that Brent has a stream will be appropriated centrally to cover costs similar population to Rotherham, but raises £22 million currently borne by the national Government. In other more each year in council tax. 805 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 806

Mr Kevan Jones: Is my right hon. Friend surprised I have never been one for saying that important decisions, that we are returning to having a Conservative Government which should be taken by politicians, who then are who are quite clear that they will reward the areas that accountable for them, should necessarily be outsourced vote for them and write off whole swathes of the to independent experts who do not have the direct country, including the north-east? accountability that we and members of the Government have, but my hon. Friend makes an important point John Healey: Like my hon. Friend, I am not surprised that is relevant to our discussions. It is impossible to by that. I seriously question whether the scheme will make any sensible assessment, let alone a sound, work even on its own terms, but I support the principle independent assessment, of what the system will mean of a system that provides some rewards and incentives for the future. That makes our discussions and the to local authorities so that they better support growth decisions that we are required to make as members of in business, jobs and the economy. The cost of doing the Committee difficult. We are making big decisions, that in the Bill and under the new system is very great largely in the dark, and we are being asked to give given that they take no account of need or resources, members of the Government significant regulation-making and do away with the decades-old principle of equalisation. powers that will define the most important dimensions of the way in which the system works and what is Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): The available for people in different areas. right hon. Gentleman knows the high regard in which I I want to underline the point that spending to meet hold him from when he was in his former positions in increased need in future will have to be funded by the the Treasury and the Department for Communities and business rates increase. The council tax freeze and Local Government. We had fruitful conversations when referendum start to remove that as a realistic alternative he was a Minister and I was leader of a large council. source of additional funds. However, I must tell him that Bexley has to raise so much more money than Barnsley because when he was 4pm a Minister, he fiddled with the equalisation formula to force affluent southern councils to raise council tax to George Hollingbery: I am in the Committee as much subsidise northern councils. That is why there is such to learn as to speak to the amendments and would inequality. welcome a refresher. The right hon. Gentleman makes the case that there is no accounting of need in the future John Healey: The hon. Gentleman has a lot of experience funding system. My reading of the Bill is that there is. of local government and was a distinguished leader of a He can argue that the reset period is too long, but there council in north, not south London. However, no one is a reset period—of 10 years—and therefore, need will could not tell that from the comment that he has just be reassessed. Likewise, there is a safety net, such that if made. As to my fiddling the figures in the local government the business rate increase in a certain area goes a certain formula, my goodness, many people say that Labour amount below the retail prices index, the Government should have learned many more lessons more clearly will intervene. Is that not the same as a needs assessment? from the extent to which the Tories did that before 1997. John Healey: The hon. Gentleman is right—there will be resets—but we do not know after what period or on Bob Blackman: Before the previous intervention, I what basis, so there is no guarantee that the accounting think the right hon. Gentleman was comparing council of need in the current system, which will be frozen at tax raised in the London borough of Brent with that in the point when the new system starts, will be reflected in the unitary authority of Barnsley. Has he got figures for a formula for, assessment of, or decisions on resetting. looked-after children in those two boroughs? I assure He might want to pursue that point with his hon. him that the London borough of Brent includes some Friend the Minister. of the most deprived areas in the whole country and, sadly, huge numbers of looked-after children. Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point, but does he share my concern that, if, as is John Healey: The very point that I am making is that suggested, the reset period is set at 10 years, the gap the current system, complex as it is, takes account of between the poorest and the most affluent authorities resources—an area’s capacity to raise revenue, especially will widen and the disparities will worsen in that period? through council tax—as well as the needs of the population Does that not reinforce his argument that need must be in that area for the essential services that local authorities a fundamental part of the overall formula, as does the provide. The formula covers both and is based on the capacity to raise additional income using the council principle that I outlined. tax and the council tax base? Mr Watts: If the Government were truly serious John Healey: My hon. Friend is right—I am about to about taking need and the ability to raise funds into make a similar point on relatively affluent areas becoming account, they would have had an independent assessment, relatively more affluent under the proposed system. outside the political arena, to ensure that grants for The Government’s declared intention is for a 10-year local authorities in future reflected need. Comments gap between resets. I have my doubts about whether a from the Government Members are always about how reset after that period will be capable of restoring a much one local authority gets compared with another, proper reflection of need or a proper fairness in the and always ignore need. The reason for higher funding system. We will speak later to amendments that would is that the need exists. create much shorter reset periods, but they would not change fundamentally how the system will work to John Healey: Whatever side of the House we are on, build in an advantage for already affluent areas with a we should endorse the principle that objective, sometimes higher business base. That advantage will just get bigger independent, assessment is the basis for better decisions. over the period between resets. 807 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 808

Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): It is very Having been a local government Minister for two easy to talk about resets here and now as an academic years, introduced the first ever three-year settlement for exercise, but when the time comes to do something that local government and altered the formula to better fundamentally alters the tax take of different authorities reflect needs and resources, I know that there are always up and down the country, Governments of any persuasion winners and losers from any change. The whole House might think twice. We should perhaps think of the knows that. However, the councils that have a big history of council tax revaluations. They are not easy, business rates base, a strong council tax take and high but they have an impact on individual councils, and levels of growth will be win-win-win councils, and those they are sometimes dismissed. that do not will find that they are lose-lose-lose councils. That is the unfairness that is built into the design of the John Healey: My hon. Friend is really saying that we new system. It will increase divisions and tensions in have not had a council tax revaluation. The problem he our country. describes is a problem for any Government, but Governments will experience a similar problem with Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): business rates as a result of the Bill. Does the right hon. Gentleman not recognise that the current system also has a whole lot of disincentives for local authorities built into it? Over years gone by, it has Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend rightly talks of the disincentivised many local authorities. It is perhaps all unfairness of the possible reset in 10 years’time exacerbating too easy to make comparisons between relatively affluent the problems for local authorities, particularly those central London authorities and those in relatively long-term such as mine, which need the ability to raise income impoverished areas of the north of England, but the locally and for acute local needs, such as those in scheme that is being put in place is intended to challenge Tameside and the Reddish part of Stockport, to be those disincentives. Although I accept that elements of reflected. it will not provide as much transparency as many of us In fact, is it not worse than that for such areas? There would like, it is at least a step in the right direction. is almost a double-whammy. For those authorities, we must not only get the reset procedure right, but set the John Healey: The extent to which it is a step in the initial baseline correctly. All of that is based on the right direction remains to be seen. There is an element unfair funding settlements and cuts to local authorities of its direction that is right, which is the desire to see such as Tameside and Stockport, but if we get the greater incentives for local councils to support the growth procedure and the baseline wrong, 10 years down the of their business base, and greater rewards for doing so. line, the real unfairness will set in. How those incentives will work is weak and potentially perverse, but the principle is nevertheless in the right John Healey: My hon. Friend makes a powerful direction. The potential practical problems that we are point. It is certainly clear from how the cuts to local beginning to tease out are part of the debate that we government have fallen in this Government’s first two need to have. years that certain areas, including his and mine, have borne a much greater burden than others. Andrew Gwynne: My right hon. Friend is being incredibly The other part of the double whammy, to use my generous in giving way. Is there not another problem hon. Friend’s expression, is designed into the system, that has not been properly addressed in the legislation? and it should give the Committee cause for concern. It It takes no account of the complexities of sub-regional is that the local distribution of the business rates is very economies. For example, many of my constituents in uneven. For instance, Kensington and Chelsea has a Tameside and Stockport work in the city of Manchester much smaller population than Rotherham or Barnsley—I or other local authorities. The scope for economic represent part of both those boroughs—but raises five development in Greater Manchester is concentrated in times as much in business rates as Barnsley and three the city centre, around Manchester airport, Trafford and a half times as much as Rotherham. park, the Trafford centre, the media city and Salford quays, and not necessarily in Tameside or Stockport to The opportunities to grow the business base are also the same extent. Although there are facilities for pooling uneven. I have looked back at the latest gross value business rates where local authorities agree, if they do added statistics published by the Office for National not agree, will not authorities such as mine be Statistics just before Christmas. Last year’s figures showed disadvantaged? a difference of more than 3% between growth in London and that in Lincolnshire, Cornwall or Merseyside. In John Healey: They will indeed. As my hon. Friend other words, it is clear that from year one the gap states, there is a double disadvantage to areas such as between affluent and less affluent areas will grow. The his. He paints that picture and concern very vividly. business rates base, and therefore income for councils, will grow faster in some areas than others, as it has in Graham Jones: My right hon. Friend is being generous the past. with his time. I want to add a third whammy and take Even if there were the same rate of growth in all up the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for areas, the relative size of the business base income, Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne). Large parts of which is higher for some councils than others, would the country will have no incentive at all because they are mean a greater actual cash income for some councils. in shire and district areas, where the district authorities The top-up and tariff system that the Government are will probably be the planning authorities that will make designing will reduce, but not remove, that disparity. If the business decisions, yet the shire authorities deliver it did remove it, it would remove the incentive element 85% of services, including fire and police services, and that they want to build into the system. might have little say in how much they take from 809 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 810 business rates in terms of business growth. It will be creating contradictions and tensions, which lead to the difficult for them to increase their base if district authorities sort of complexities that the Minister is trying to counter act unproductively or do not co-operate. in the design of the system.

John Healey: My hon. Friend is right, and I suspect 4.15 pm that it will be one of the Minister’s biggest headaches in the system. I doubt whether he will come to the Bill Esterson: My right hon. Friend makes the point conclusion—although perhaps he should—that the real about the new system trying to do too much, which goes answer is unitary authorities across the country. back to what my hon. Friend the Member for St Helens [Interruption.] But I sense that I may be tempted into North (Mr Watts) said. The evidence is that the potential territory that falls well beyond my amendment and the economic impact of local councils in trying to develop whole group of amendments. business locally is perhaps only 20% of the total impact, with far more of the impact coming from the private Heidi Alexander: My right hon. Friend was talking sector. The new system is putting an awful lot of about the principles and practicalities at the heart of responsibility on to local government for generating the Bill. Does he agree that the real problem is that new business, therefore putting a huge responsibility for because the proposed system is so complicated—with the generation of business rates on to local authorities, central and local shares, top-ups, tariffs, set-asides, safety when there is relatively little that they can do, particularly nets and levies—the incentive for a local authority to do in areas such as St Helens or Sefton, or my right hon. anything differently could be marginal? Even if we Friend’s area. accept that the incentive is there, it is so complicated that councils will not be sure whether it will be worth John Healey: My hon. Friend is right. One of the doing something differently anyway. Is that not the real strengths of this debate, as shown by contributions problem? from all parts of the Committee, is exemplified by what he has just said. He has served as a councillor in north John Healey: My hon. Friend is right. She made that Kent and brings that experience and perspective to this point powerfully last week in her Second Reading speech, debate. He now serves as the Member for Sefton Central, which was one of the best that the House heard. Whether in the north-west of England, and also brings that for children or councils, incentives need to be simple, perspective, reinforcing his point. and the rewards and rules need to be clear, but the I want to draw the Minister’s attention to the future system that the Bill will introduce falls far short of position of fire and rescue services. Can he provide me those basic objectives for any system of rewards and and other Members who are interested with details incentives. about his modelling and assessment of future revenue streams? Can he say how many and which fire authorities Mr Watts: Is there not another issue here for the local will be top-up authorities in future, and how many and authorities with the lowest business rates take? The which will be tariff authorities? There is concern among Government have indicated that they believe that those senior fire staff that if the incentive that this system is local authorities have low business rates take because designed to deliver works as the Government say it will, they are not interested in developing businesses and do the top priority for councils in the future will be those not do all that they can to attract businesses to their functions for which they are responsible that help to areas. Does my right hon. Friend consider that perverse, build business growth. However, those who serve in our given the problems in areas such as St Helens and many fire and rescue services—services that do not directly others, including his own? The major concern of local contribute to economic and business growth—are concerned authorities in those areas is to bring in as many jobs as that a consequence of that will be that in future they possible, but because of their location, the skills base will not get the priority for funding that the proper and other things, it is extremely difficult. It is insulting protection of their area may deserve because they do for the Government to pretend that it is because of a not contribute to business growth. Let me quote a chief lack of effort by local authorities. fire officer who fears that that may—but not necessarily will—happen. He says: John Healey: A number of colleagues have made “I am concerned that the proposed funding model could foster an that point, about local government in general and their antagonistic relationship between the fire authority and the local local authorities in particular. It is hard to point the authorities if they begin to see us as a service which takes money finger at any council and say that it has not bust a gut in from the business rates but does not actively participate in the recent years to see its economy grow and jobs created, business growth agenda.” because that is to the benefit of their local area and There is a strong case for fire and rescue services to be the local people they serve, and that would also be the funded in future on the same basis as the police, with a view of most Members. I still think there is a case for very clear, consistent and comprehensive assessment of trying to design a system that rewards local people, via risk, need and resources built into the allocation of their local councils, where they are successful in that. funding for fire services in England. What we start to Under the last Government, we attempted to do that see with the fire and rescue services, in common with through the local authority business growth incentive the rest of local government, is concern about the scheme. The system that we are now discussing is clearly uncertainty—what it means, what the funding is likely a new way of doing that, but its fundamental flaw is to be and how hard it makes it to plan sensibly for the that it tries to fix the whole funding system for local future, particularly the ability to plan and manage government at the same time as using the same, single within diminishing resources, which by and large is tax stream to create that incentive. The new system is accepted. As another senior fire officer told me, stability trying to do too much with that one funding system, is the most important factor. The Minister could do the 811 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 812

[John Healey] the almost constant lobbying—whether it be for three-year settlements or the annual settlements of the past. Although Committee and many in local government a favour by we might return, well before 2022, to specific concerns giving a clear and strong reassurance this afternoon about elements of need that have rightly been referred about the stability and predictability of the system in to, the idea of having a 10-year period is a positive route future. forward in providing certainty for local authorities. I am conscious that there are a number of other Westminster city council strongly supports the principle amendments in the group and that other right hon. and of allowing local authorities to retain a proportion of hon. Members want to speak to them, so let me return the business rates generated in their area—no one seriously to my starting-point of amendment 46. It is a probing suggests that either of my two local authorities should amendment, but it contains a proposal that all revenue retain all their business rates, although there are common raised from what is a tax on businesses designed to pay councilmen in the City of London, and members of for local services should provide funds for local Westminster city council, I am sure, who would rather government—not for national priorities or services around like the idea, but even I would not suggest that that which the cloak of local government can be loosely would necessarily be an entirely sensible way forward. thrown at their funding streams and categorised as local As other Members have rightly pointed out, local authorities government. Post 2015, this will build in a real localising have played an increasingly important and integral role ratchet. Post 2015, when the business rates take is in supporting and growing businesses locally. projected to be bigger than the sums distributed to local councils, it will mean that where central Government Bill Esterson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for want to use funds to cover non-council services, they acknowledging that the most wealthy local authorities, will have to transfer the responsibility and devolve the in terms of business rates, could not possibly keep all power and control for those services to local government those rates. What sensible balance can be struck to in order to use the business rates revenue to help fund ensure that some local authorities do not struggle because them. Thus my proposal will mean Ministers truly of loss of income and that local authorities who are putting their money where their mouths are. It will worried, for good reason, have their fears allayed? mean putting into reverse the post-war centralisation of government that this country has seen, and it will mean Mark Field: I will be coming to that later, and will be making the localist rhetoric a reality. asking the Minister to clarify the matter. Mark Field: I am not entirely convinced that we are I would like the Minister to address a number of debating quite as revolutionary a change in local concerns. Why have the Government decided to cancel government finance as the right hon. Member for out any natural inflationary growth in the business rates Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) would have us programme? Why are increases in what might be described believe. As he rightly says, there has been periodic as revaluation growth not included in the Bill? A major centralisation of local government finance in the post-war revaluation has particularly affected London local period; this Bill is a step, but only a relatively small step, authorities in recent years. Why does the Bill fail to in a different direction. provide for an adjustment in the growth calculation, in order to remove the negative effect of valuation appeals, I am concerned that some provisions will not provide which might become much more prevalent once the Bill the overall transparency that all of us desire for local is on the statute book? Under the proposed reforms, government finance. The worry, as we all know, is that every local authority, as has been pointed out, will council leaders across the country who get and understand become a tariff—contributory—or top-up recipient the system will then work it to the benefit of their own authority, relative to its annual grant. In that regard, I local authorities, while neighbouring authorities with take on board the comments of the right hon. Member similar sets of needs will not reap the same benefits. I for Wentworth and Dearne in relation to the responsibilities believe that has been the case since time immemorial, on fire authorities. One key question considered through and I suspect it is a problem that exists in any political the consultation was whether tariffs and top-ups should system. However much we try, it is difficult to discount be uprated annually by the retail prices index. As the the articulacy of those who understand and work a Minister knows, the Bill proposes that business rates system. As I say, I am not as convinced or as concerned will continue to be uprated annually, but taking the as the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne. I same approach to tariffs and top-ups would cancel out hope he will forgive me if I focus my comments on any natural inflationary growth that might otherwise issues that have come from the lobbying of one of the have been expected by local authorities. two local authorities in my constituency, and in so far as we work here, we all have a vested interest in this Why have the Government decided to cancel out authority—Westminster city council. natural inflationary growth in business rates? The clauses in the Bill that are subject to consideration Mr Watts: Is not the real worry that unless a duty and today do not allow for revaluation growth, which is responsibility are placed on Ministers to ensure that regrettable. Inevitably, all Members will use the examples needs are assessed and catered for within the grant closest to our hearts—our own local authority areas. system, which under these proposals they will not be, Westminster city council’s total rateable value at the last the worst aspects of the hon. Gentleman’s worst fears five-year revaluation—18 months or so ago—rose by might come to fruition? some 60%, but the proposed reforms would allow for none of that increase to count towards growth. In many Mark Field: There is a duty, although it will apply to ways, that is a disincentive to doing a lot of the hard potentially different sets of needs. I think one of the work that went on in the second half of the last decade. most destructive elements of local government has been As a result, local authorities would receive no benefit 813 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 814 for enhancing their commercial environment or making organisations about which he has expressed concern, their area a more attractive location for businesses. removing discretionary awards would be controversial, Having pacesetter authorities with business improvement and—given that they account for only a small proportion districts in place at the outset was one of the most of the business rates that are collected—of little use. I important elements of the previous Government’s work hope that we can be given some clarification about why in that regard. Such authorities will be almost disincentivised the Bill fails to provide for any adjustment in the growth and penalised under the proposals, which does not calculation to remove the negative effect on valuation make much sense. appeals. Given that rental and rateable value growth reflect I do not wish to sound too negative myself. the relative profitability from which central Government Obviously we are trying to make the legislation better, benefit through VAT, corporation tax and income tax, and I think that the principle of allowing local authorities will the Minister clarify the reasons why increases in to retain a greater proportion of the business rates that revaluation growth have not been included in the Bill? they generate in their areas is a positive step. Nevertheless, On physical growth, one key principle of the scheme, as the detailed proposals relating to RPI increases, revaluation I understand it, is to enable local authorities to benefit and physical growth fail to offer the incentives for from new building and construction. However, as the growth in high-yield areas for which we had all hoped, Minister knows—although he represents a suburban and I fear that they may result in excessive penalties for London constituency—here in the capital, the high such areas. I realise that Opposition Members may view levels of rateable value reductions that are granted on the issue from the point of view of relatively low-yield appeal often wipe out the physical rateable value growth areas, but I think there is a risk that high-yield areas will that has been achieved through new build. A great not receive benefits for themselves and that, as a many appeals may be heard following revaluations, and consequence, the Exchequer will not receive them either. as they are accepted the total rateable value in a billing may be reduced over time. Since those reductions result Encouraging economic growth at any level is critical from errors made by central Government valuation to the national economy. Local authorities are uniquely officers, it seems unfair to penalise local authorities for placed to provide incentives for growth in their areas, such mis-valuations. We should also note the uncertainty recognising what will work even in specific parts of a that would be injected into the final settlement, given single authority area—I observe a great variance within that one of the main aims of the scheme is to iron out the 6.5 square miles of my own constituency—and that such uncertainty. creates a bedrock for the national economy. I hope that serious scrutiny will be given to the reasons for the Government’s proposals, in the light of some of their 4.30 pm potentially negative implications for areas that would Despite earlier assurances, the Government have failed be expected to generate the most significant growth. to provide for any adjustment in the growth calculation to remove the negative effect of appeals, although—dare Let me take up the point made by the hon. Member I say—given the difficult economic constraints that we for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) about pooling. are experiencing, I fear that there will be an exponential We are living in a climate in which it will become the increase in the number of such appeals. It is estimated norm. I do not wish to pre-empt discussion of a subject that Westminster city council has achieved an annual that I am sure will be subject to much criticism and physical growth of about £30 million in rateable value debate on the Floor of the House in the years to come, per annum over the last five years, but failure to remove but I suspect that there will also be a reorganisation of the negative effect of appeals will mean the loss of local government. I foresee that in particular for London. much of the benefit of that growth, and I suspect that It currently has 32 local authorities as well as the City of we will hear similar stories from other Members. It is London, and that situation may well be subject to also possible that a significant number of appeals will radical reform in the near future. be processed in 2013-14 and 2014-15 once the valuation I hope the Minister gives serious thought to encouraging office has completed its appeals programme for the the pooling of resources. As he will know, in my area 2010 revaluation, and that too could have a significant the tri-borough arrangements among the City of impact on the final settlement. I believe that the only Westminster, Kensington and Chelsea, and Hammersmith option for local authorities will be to achieve growth and Fulham have worked well in a number of respect, through the adjustment of business rate allowances. and it is to be hoped that that continues. The only allowances that authorities are currently permitted to control are discretionary reliefs for charities and It is in the interests of central Government for there non-profit-making bodies, and hardship relief. to be pooling, but I fear that the proposals in paragraph 9 of schedule 1 will serve to remove any form of incentive Graham Jones: When authorities suffer a significant for it. I accept that there will be some additional costs, loss in business rate revenue, there will surely be a but pooling is the way forward for many local authorities downward pressure on what the Prime Minister would and the Government should encourage it in this Bill. describe as the big society, in which rate relief is given to I am broadly in favour of the proposals, but I hope charities, sports clubs and all sorts of other organisations the Minister gives serious consideration to the points I that do social good. In the poorer, more deprived areas have made. that will lose out under the new system, will not those organisations will lose out as well? Helen Jones: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Mark Field: The hon. Gentleman has almost taken Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark the words out of my mouth. Given the Government’s Field), who always has something interesting to say commitment to the big society and to empowering the even though I might disagree with him. 815 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 816

[Helen Jones] could have taken the Bill into Public Bill Committee and taken evidence, and then had a long Report stage My right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth on the Floor of the House to enable Members to and Dearne (John Healey) gave an excellent speech, in participate. which he set out the reasoning behind the amendments. To go back to my point, we are not against providing Our amendments attempt to deal with important omissions incentives for local authorities, but we do not believe in the Bill. There is no mention of levels of need, of the that this Bill goes about it in the right way. We believe different capacities of local authorities to benefit from that any system has to be fair and equitable, and must business rate growth, or of the different council tax recognise that weaker local economies find it harder bases of local authorities. to achieve growth and need help to do so. The The Government present their case in a way that Government have signally failed to recognise their suggests that there is no difference among authorities, responsibilities in that regard and we are faced with a in that they all have the same capacity to raise income “Leave it to Pickles” Bill. The Secretary of State is and have the same demands on them, and that if a local going to decide who gets what on the top-ups, the tariffs authority is struggling, it is its own fault and a result of and so on. That is all being left to regulations, with no its being lax, rather than of the conditions it has inherited. indication given as to the factors that he will take into Everyone knows that that is a myth, but some people account. As I keep saying, there are no draft regulations are deeply attached to it. for us to look at. We must acknowledge that the current, admittedly complex, system of local government finance does at Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): I apologise least try to take into account the relative needs of for not being able to be here for the earlier part of the different communities and their differing abilities to debate. My hon. Friend knows my constituency well. raise revenue. The Government have sought to erode Does she agree that unless we make a provision along that in their current local government finance settlement, the lines of amendment 19, which deals with need, the and the consequent significant reduction in resource capacity to benefit from business rate growth and the equalisation has led to local authorities no longer being council tax base of the authority, areas such as Knowsley able to provide the same level of service by charging the are likely to be badly penalised? same band of council tax. As a result, the delivery of core services in poorer areas has been hit particularly hard. Despite the Prime Minister’s repeated reassurances, Helen Jones: My right hon. Friend, who has been a we are not all in this together. doughty champion of his constituency for many years, hits on exactly the point that we are trying to make: The point I have made is very important, because it is unless the distribution of the central and local share is about the base from which this scheme starts. Let me based on a number of factors, inequality will be built make it clear that we are not against incentives for local into the system—indeed, it is built in already because of authorities to grow their economies. the starting point. We do not believe that this approach is good enough. The future of communities and of the Mr Watts: Does my hon. Friend agree that her point services available, particularly to the poorest people in is one of the reasons that the Government do not want this country, cannot simply be left to chance. If the any independent assessment of the implications of what Government believe in fairness and really believe that they have already done and of what they now propose they would take into account the factors we mention in to do? An assessment would demonstrate that poorer any case in determining central and local shares, I authorities have got poorer and that the richer have got cannot see why they would have a problem in accepting richer. our amendment. After all, the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister told us during their now forgotten Helen Jones: My hon. Friend makes a valid point. love-in back in May 2010, before the romance had gone When discussing the first group of amendments we said and they started squabbling, that they that the fact that this Bill is not going into Committee “will ensure that fairness is at the heart of…decisions so that all upstairs means that we cannot take evidence on anything. those most in need are protected.” The Government mindset seems to be, “Let’s get it in, That is all we are asking for in this amendment and the push it through and not bother to have any proper others that follow it. assessment of it.” Unfortunately, the Bill does not provide that fairness. Mark Field: The local government finance system If it goes through as drafted, service provision will, as may not be quite as complicated as the Schleswig-Holstein my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and question, but is it not a concern that it is none the less Dearne (John Healey) said, increasingly be based on the very difficult to find anyone who could seriously be said ability to raise local business rates and council tax. As to be independent in this regard? Although I can understand council tax increases will often be subject to a referendum, some of the concerns outlined by the hon. Member for most of the demand will be put on local business rates. St Helens North (Mr Watts), having an opportunity to discuss this on the Floor of the House means that more Mr Kevan Jones: Does my hon. Friend also recognise Members can have their say, and that must be a positive that, for authorities such as South Tyneside council, step forward. which has nearly 50% of its properties in band A—that compares with a figure of 2% for Kensington and Helen Jones: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point, Chelsea—the existing system makes it more difficult to although I do not believe it is impossible to find independent raise any additional money from the domestic side of people in the sector and of course the Government the rates? 817 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 818

Helen Jones: Yes, my hon. Friend is absolutely right. because, in my experience, local authorities have worked That is one of the reasons for including the council tax relentlessly to tackle these issues and to regenerate their base as one of the measures that ought to be taken into communities. It is a long-term project, however, and it is account. I shall say a little more about that later. much more difficult in some areas than in others for a whole host of reasons, including poverty, a local authority’s Graham Jones: My hon. Friend is very generous in inheritance, its location and so on. giving way and I am grateful for that. Let me extend that point and return to those made about shires and Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): Some years districts. Where is the incentive in a scenario in which ago, I was an assistant director of education in the city there are a large number of band A properties, for of Sunderland and, despite its massive challenges, the which council tax cannot be used, and in which the attainment of the children was well above that of their receipt will be only 15%, such as in my district authority? statistical neighbours and was close to the national It seems to me that the system has not been thought average. That demonstrates that such places can have out. massive challenges but still deliver well for their communities.

4.45 pm Helen Jones: My hon. Friend highlights the role of local authorities in achieving such gains. I believe that Helen Jones: My hon. Friend has hit on another flaw those authorities are constantly working to improve in the Bill and that is one reason for our complaining things for their communities and that the assumption earlier about it being rushed through. Such matters underlying much of this Bill—that they do not want to need to be considered in detail. do that—is simply untrue. If service provision is to be increasingly based on the Returning to the issue of need, Durham council ability to raise local business rates and council tax, this spends more on older people than a similar council such Bill has nothing to say about the levels of need. For as Surrey because it has higher levels of deprivation and example, parts of the area I represent used to be heavily ill health. That means not only that it faces a greater industrialised. It is now a mixed area because a new requirement for social care but that it has fewer people town was built, but part of it was a mining community who are able to finance their own care. Fifteen times as and we had heavy industry. Many other local authorities many people per 1,000 population receive a community have much worse problems than my area, but all those service in Durham compared with Surrey, and 2.4 times areas are still dealing with the long-term health issues as many receive a home care service. That kind of linked to heavy industry and poverty. That is why in variation in need exists right across the country. an area such as Halton, a neighbouring authority to mine, one in five of the population has a limiting A similar pattern can be seen with children’s services long-term illness. That is why the north-east has higher and the level of child poverty, which all experts estimate levels of deprivation, child poverty and poor health will rise as a result of many of the Government’s than the English average. Sunderland, for example, has actions. In Hartlepool, 29% of children are in poverty, 34 neighbourhoods that are in the top 10% most deprived whereas in Newcastle the figure is 27%, as it is in areas of the country.The legacy of poor health, deprivation Liverpool—more than 91,000 children. In comparison, and poverty is what many local councils are constantly the figure in Wokingham is 7%. I defy anyone to argue striving to deal with. There is no lack of effort on their that there should not be some resource equalisation to part or lack of will. The failure is not theirs, but results deal with that, but nothing in the Bill requires the from a long industrial heritage followed by the collapse Secretary of State to take account of the level of need of much heavy industry in the ’80s and ’90s. when he determines the central and local share of non-domestic rates. Graham Jones: My hon. Friend is making a very good point; there is a risk in the system. She mentioned Heidi Alexander: My hon. Friend is talking about the Sunderland—not my area—and Nissan is a very large growth in demand for council services that might occur employer in that region. Who is to say that in five years’ in future and about the need to have some way of time the company will still be present there? assessing that growing demand. It is relevant to services such as adult social care, particularly elderly care, that Helen Jones: Indeed—my hon. Friend makes a very the geographical distribution of older people in our good point. Later, we will debate the provisions for country is not the same across every local authority. In safety nets and how the Bill can cope with risks. the shires, for example, there will be more of an ageing population than in my local authority. Does my hon. Andrew Gwynne: Will not some of the disparities Friend think it is important to find a way of assessing about which my hon. Friend is talking be exacerbated those differing growth rates in need, which are often for by the new system? The analysis from the special interest services that are highly resource-intensive? group of municipal authorities—SIGOMA—shows that there will be an absolute decline over the next two years Helen Jones: My hon. Friend makes the valid point in funding across all local authority areas, that by that the need for all these services varies across authorities; 2015-16 some of those authorities will have recovered more to the point it is not within councils’ control. A their position and that by 2020 there will be a huge council cannot control how many elderly people are disparity between the most rich and the most poor. going to need social care, or how many children are going to need intervention from their children’s department. Helen Jones: My hon. Friend highlights a real risk of That is the real problem. There are huge variations in the Bill. All the modelling shows that the gap between demand for children’s services and educational services rich and poor will become wider. That is a problem across the country, and that is often linked with poverty. 819 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 820

[Helen Jones] meantime. The baseline has nothing to do with the number of public sector workers anywhere. The baseline Middlesbrough, which is the ninth most deprived local is the current local government financial settlement, authority area in England, has almost seven times as which we argue is completely unfair to many local many children receiving free school meals as Wokingham. authorities anyway. Almost all councils showed a huge increase in referrals and in the taking into care of children following the Andrew Gwynne: Because many of the children’s services tragic baby Peter case, which we all know about. That that my hon. Friend mentioned are statutory, is it not was not under their control, but the differences between the case that local authorities will have to find the the numbers of children in care across the country are money to provide them? The real pinch will come in the still stark. Surrey has 32 looked-after children per 10,000 budgets for non-statutory services. There will be huge population, whereas Wokinghamhas 22. In Middlesbrough, differentials from local authority to local authority, the figure is 104 and in Newcastle it is 100. In Liverpool, with some able to provide libraries, parks and other there has been a 60% increase in child safeguarding wonderful things, and other local authorities barely referrals since 2009-10, whereas the average national able to make their statutory arrangements. increase is only 10%. Helen Jones: Indeed. My hon. Friend hits on a point Bill Esterson: I keep being struck by the tension that is important to local government as a whole. Local between, on one hand, the Government’s stated support authorities cannot avoid their statutory responsibilities, for localism and the retention of business rates that so other services are squeezed. In future we may well see they want to bring in and, on the other, the retention of richer authorities developing a Pickles park here and powers by the Secretary of State. My hon. Friend is there and naming public libraries after this beneficent describing extremely well the growing gap among different Secretary of State, but it will be very hard for other local authorities and it seems to me that unless the authorities. Secretary of State addresses the issues in amendment We have included unemployment in the factors that 19, he will not be able to avoid that growing gap. I the Secretary of State must take into account. There are cannot understand why the Government would not a number of reasons for that. Unemployment increases want to support amendment 19. ill-health, it forces more families into poverty, and it is an indicator of the state of business in an area. But high Helen Jones: My hon. Friend is right. His intervention levels of unemployment also increase the demand for highlights the fact that no matter how much we want to local authority services. As one of my hon. Friends said make local government finance simple, it is never going earlier, it will increase the demand for council tax benefit, to be simple because of the variation in need and the for example. As more people become employed, many difference in resources. There is a balance to be struck more rightly receive discounts on other services, such as between simplification and unfairness, and we do not leisure services. So unemployment increases demand at think the Government have got that balance right in the same time as locking the authority into a cycle of the Bill. falling revenue. Some councils are coping with huge demands on The theory behind the Bill is that local authorities their resources. Some form of equalisation will be necessary can resolve that problem simply by expanding their if, for example, children in poorer areas are not to be business rate base and attracting more jobs. This was placed at risk. The idea that children’s services or the the theory that the Deputy Prime Minister set out when care of the elderly should depend on the number of he explained the Government’s proposals to council businesses persuaded to relocate to a particular area is leaders. He said: difficult to get to grips with. “The new system will start on a level playing field—where you progress from there is up to you.” George Hollingbery: In the debate on Second Reading It is a wonderful thing to be a Liberal Democrat. the shadow Secretary of State said that there were far They can conduct politics exactly as if they are writing too many points in the Bill where the Secretary of State a “Focus” leaflet. But in the first place, there is no level could interfere. As I said earlier this afternoon, there playing field. We have debated endlessly what we see is are mechanisms built into the Bill that ensure that the unfairness of the current local government financial revaluation and re-rating will take place. We can quibble settlement, which forms the basis for rate redistribution about the date, but there are provisions to do that. and penalises the poorest local authorities most. The There are safety nets built in. There is also at the first simplest statistic is the most telling and it bears repeating. setting of this level of support a built-in bias towards The 10% most deprived authorities lose four times as communities that need more, as there should be. A much as the 10% least deprived. The cumulative cuts in calculation that I did showed that there was one public per capita spending hit the poorest hardest. sector worker for every 88 people in Hampshire, because there is much less deprivation there, and I understand that, but one public sector worker for every 19 people in 5pm Manchester. Where we start clearly reflects the level of I quoted some statistics on Second Reading, but let need. me quote a few more now. By 2012-13, South Tyneside will have lost £183 per person in spending power and Helen Jones: I know the hon. Gentleman made a Middlesbrough £156. The national average is £47. The thoughtful speech on Second Reading, but he is wrong average in the south-east is £31. A few councils actually on both counts. First, there is nothing on the face of the gain. Basingstoke and Deane gains more than £6 per Bill about resets. Secondly, resetting the whole system is person. But the Government simply refuse to look at different from the way in which the system is run in the local council resources as a whole, and inexplicably they 821 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 822 refuse to consider the varying council tax yields from The Government say that this issue will be dealt with local authorities, which is why we want to put that in by their proposed levy system, but they suggest that the the Bill. levy will take back only a proportion of disproportionate In the north-east, 85% of properties are in bands A to growth, rather than compensate for it completely, so C. In Surrey, 75% of properties are in band D and inequalities will grow, and they will grow even if the above, compared with just 9% in Sunderland, which top-ups and tariffs are uprated by the retail prices means that it will raise a lot less from the same level of index, as was noted earlier. It is estimated that, even council tax. For example, South Tyneside has 66% of its with the uprating, the cash funding growth over four properties in band A, and its council tax base per years could be 139.6% in the City of London, but person is 0.2966. In Kensington and Chelsea, fewer 21.1% in Bury. It could be over 90% in Westminster, but than 2% of the properties are in band A, and the 21.9% in Knowsley. The reason is obvious: a highly council tax base is 0.5524. From a national standard geared authority with an existing large tax base, relative band D tax of £1,439, Kensington and Chelsea would to its funding levels, will do better from a business rate raise £795 per person, South Tyneside just £427. retention scheme than an authority with a lower tax Earlier, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth base even if the rates grow by the same percentage. and Dearne picked up the Bexley and Barnsley problem, The Government have recognised that in part through where Bexley and Barnsley have a similar population, their proposed levy, but it will not compensate for all but Bexley raises about £37 million a year more in the unfair growth. We believe that it would be fairer and council tax. As I said, resource equalisation used to try better if the local and central shares were decided on the to compensate for that up to 2010-11, but it is now basis of all the things listed in the amendment, especially being eroded. Inequalities will be entrenched unless an assessment of need. these things are taken into account when the central and local shares are decided. Bob Blackman: I am listening with interest to the I come now to the second of the Deputy Prime hon. Lady’s explanation of the amendment. It suggests Minister’s assertions, which was that once the scheme a whole series of different factors that the Government had started, how far a council progressed was up to it. I would have to take into account in deciding how much do not believe it is, and that is why we would like to put money a local authority would be given. Who would the ability to benefit from business rate growth as one of conduct that assessment? Would it be the Government, the factors to be taken into account in the Bill. First, some independent body, the Opposition or the whole such a statement ignores the Government’s responsibility House? Otherwise, the amendment would simply put for promoting growth. It has been estimated that 80% of into the Secretary of State’s hands the power that she is growth is down to Government actions, and only 20% down accusing him of taking already in the Bill? to what the local council does. But it also ignores the fact that many areas need infrastructure investment in order to grow. For example, Helen Jones: The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting Northumberland, the most beautiful county in England, point, as an independent assessment would be a good has a sparse population, a large part of its area is idea. However, assessments of local authority need are national park, thus restricting the kind of development already done by the Department for Communities and it can have, and it has a poor infrastructure. It needs Local Government, so I see no reason why they should national investment in that infrastructure in order to not be done in future. As he will hear when I move on in grow. That some local authorities find it easier to grow my speech, we have tabled further amendments requiring than others has to be recognised and provided for in any the report to be laid before the House so that it can be system of distribution. debated. It is no good the Government simply pointing to Amendments 37 and 38 would require the Secretary their proposals on tax increment financing as a solution. of State not only to announce central and local shares TIFs cannot provide a high-speed rail link to the north-east. for each authority for a year, but to give indicative totals They cannot give it a big new road system. Yet transport for the following year after consultation with local is the key to unlocking some of the regional inequalities government. Despite the Government’s rhetoric, the in the economy. Bill is a hugely centralising measure, as the Opposition Secondly, we have to acknowledge that for a number have said several times. We are seeking to mitigate that of reasons it is much easier to attract new businesses to by inserting a requirement that the Secretary of State some areas than to others. Westminster is a prime consult local government before making his decision, example. It has a multi-million pound base of national which seems fair and proportionate and reflects the fact and international company headquarters. It is much that what we are engaged in is a partnership between easier for them to attract new investment than, say, central and local government. Consett. Amendment 37 would require the Secretary of State Cambridge has a wonderful high-tech hub centred on to give an indicative announcement for the subsequent its university. Because in business like tends to follow two years to allow local councils to plan their services like, attracting more businesses is much easier for such and make the right preparations, rather than working places than it is for local authorities starting from from year to year. Recently, all parties seemed to have scratch. My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham accepted that it is much more sensible for local government East (Heidi Alexander) gave a good example in her finance announcements to cover a number of years. excellent speech on Second Reading. She suggested that The previous Government introduced three-year Catford was less likely to develop in the way that Old settlements, and even this Government announced a Street had because Catford was not on the tube map, two-year settlement, knowing that they expected to and that makes things more difficult. change the system. 823 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 824

[Helen Jones] By requiring the Secretary of State to prepare and publish a report, the House would be able to take Amendments 37 and 38 simply attempt to introduce account of the needs of groups that are not the most a little more certainty into a very uncertain system. vocal, especially children and the elderly. Those groups They would not change the power of the Secretary of do not always have access to journalists to argue their State to decide the shares and they seek only indicative case. When they are written about, it is sometimes as if shares, not shares set in stone. In our view, that would they are a different species. Many such people do not produce better governance in local authorities and help come to our surgeries or write to the local newspaper. them to plan. As it is, the Secretary of State can change After all, a society is judged not by how it treats its most the shares from year to year with little warning for local affluent people but by the way in which it treats those authorities. As we require local authorities to deliver most in need and those without a voice. We tabled statutory services, as has been said, we ought to allow amendment 39 to ensure that those matters are debated, them to plan the support that their community needs. and we hope that the Government will accept it. Local authorities are constantly lectured by Ministers about the need to manage their resources, yet how can 5.15 pm they manage their resources properly without any indication We tabled amendment 26 to ensure that the level of of how their finances will change from year to year? service provision is taken into account when any amending Amendment 36 is merely a probing amendment. It is finance report is placed before the House. We accept designed to tease out an explanation for the wording in that all Governments need amending reports from time the Bill. The Government intend to determine the baseline to time. Local authorities make representations about for non-domestic rate income in an authority by using the basis of calculation, and sometimes simple errors the total that would be payable if it had “acted diligently”. are discovered—we have all experienced that. Yet we We would like clarification from the Minister of what is also believe that the system that the Government propose meant by that. We all accept that an authority has to is so complicated that it has an in-built capacity for have an efficient collection system and that it should error. There is a real possibility that those errors could pursue debtors vigorously. However, what happens if an be substantial. London Councils called the proposed area finds itself in difficulty and its businesses are new system “fiendishly complex”, and there are good struggling because of the Government’s policies? Many reasons for believing that, in many ways, it is more businesses are in that position now and are finding it complicated than the current system. That complexity, difficult to pay their rates. Is an authority expected to coupled with the lack of any consideration of need in pursue such businesses to the limit? Will a council be the Bill, makes it possible for any amending report to penalised if it offers more discretionary reliefs? We have a real impact on services in a local authority. There would like clarity on that. We would also like clarity on will be more volatility in the system, and we believe that the position of councils generally in offering discretionary the House should have an opportunity, when it receives rate relief. For example, will a council be penalised if it an amending report, to debate it along with the impact offers rate relief to too many non-profit organisations? on services. We hope that the information would be put Will “too many” be defined somewhere by the Secretary before the House in advance of any debate. The two of State? What will be the position on hardship relief, reports taken together would provide Members with the which is also discretionary? Will a council in a difficult information they needed to debate the subject sensibly. situation that tries to help local businesses be penalised I hope that I have explained the thinking behind the because its baseline is set much higher than its actual amendments. It might be useful if I notify you now, income? Mr Robertson, that we will seek Divisions on amendments If I move on to amendment 39, I might be able to 19 and 39. I commend the amendments to the Committee. answer the point made by the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman). We believe that it is vital that the Bob Blackman: It is a great pleasure to serve under Secretary of State not only makes an assessment of your chairmanship again, Mr Robertson. It is also an need before setting the central and local shares for each honour to follow the hon. Member for Warrington authority, but publishes that assessment and lays it North (Helen Jones). before the House. That would bring transparency and The key issue is that local government finance has openness to the system. We want the debate on the local changed radically and dramatically in the past few governance finance report in the House to be informed years. I congratulate the previous Government on by information on the level of funding for local authorities introducing three-year settlements. Having served in and the level of need within them. local government for some 24 years before becoming a There are, of course, variations in services because Member of Parliament, I know that the certainty that there are variations in circumstances. The main difficulty gave local authorities was extremely welcome. However, in dealing with local government finance is the belief the financial arrangements have changed dramatically held by many people that they should get roughly the and will do so again. same from certain services wherever they are because, as I can speak for London authorities. The average they see it, they are taxpayers and ratepayers. Elderly London authority has £1 billion in revenue going though people who need care in their own homes have a reasonable its books. It has discretion over probably only a quarter expectation that they will get a certain standard of care of that because roughly a third goes on housing benefit wherever they live. If anybody was told that they could and 40% goes on education spending—schools and not have that standard of care because businesses had colleges. Now, that 40% for education passes through not grown enough in their area, we would soon hear with the local authority doing virtually nothing but act from them. It cannot be right for looked-after children as an agent of the Government in putting the money in Middlesbrough to receive a different standard of care into the hands of the schools. Equally with housing from children in another authority. benefit, under the proposed change to universal credit, 825 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 826 local authorities will no longer administer that money. deprived areas is better partnership working between However, there will still be the surfeit of discretionary local authorities and businesses? That is certainly the or statutory services that local authorities provide and case in Lancashire. Relationships and partnership working that need to be funded by them. There will be different between the business sector and councils are not as streams of income—council tax, other charges that good in West Lancashire, which is an affluent area. local authorities levy for their services and, importantly, Councils in the east of Lancashire have an exemplary the business rates. record, because there are deprived areas that need business. The key issue, which the Opposition have not started The answer in those deprived areas is not grants from to understand or appreciate, is that there is a deliberate the Government, but businesses, which is why those and perverse incentive for local authorities to retain local authorities pursue that avenue. deprivation in their areas. If there is deprivation, money flows from Government for that particular purpose. Bob Blackman: I recognise that partnership working has almost been forced on local authorities. Some embraced Several hon. Members rose— it; others were forced.

Bob Blackman: I will give way in a second. I will cite Graham Jones: I was talking about deprived areas. an example from the past few years, when the previous Government decided to change the rules on the amount Bob Blackman: That did not happen only in deprived of money that was given through the formula for local areas. I come from somewhere that had areas of great authorities with large concentrations of black and minority deprivation and which formed local strategic partnerships ethnic communities. All of a sudden, funding for local and other such organisations. However, those areas still authorities throughout the country with large BME have huge deprivation and are among the most deprived populations would have been decimated because it was parts of London and the country, even though they one of their great income streams. Huge lobbies took have had huge amounts of money pumped into them by place and the Government backed down. Governments of all persuasions. The key issue remains: there has been no incentive for economic growth in Mr Kevan Jones: I am interested in what the hon. those areas. Gentleman is saying. Can he give a specific example of a council anywhere, irrespective of its political persuasion, Graham Jones: The hon. Gentleman makes a self- that has wanted to turn prosperity away from its area? defeating point, because he reminds the Committee of local strategic partnerships, which were mandated only Bob Blackman: The key is not that local authorities in areas of deprivation, and to which the previous turn away business or prosperity; I am pointing out that Government handed out grants. His point is that the there is an in-built presumption that areas of deprivation previous Government instructed local authorities in follow extra grant from Government. As a direct result, deprived areas to work, through LSPs, with the business there has been hardly any change in areas of deprivation community and the private sector, and the supply and across the country.Despite the fact that local authorities—of education chains. all political persuasions—with areas of deprivation have had huge amounts of money put in over 30 or more Bob Blackman: I take the hon. Gentleman’s point, years, those areas of deprivation remain the same. but we have to consider cause and effect. I do not decry what the last Government instructed local authorities Heidi Alexander: I am interested in what the hon. to do, but the key point is that it failed. The areas of Gentleman is saying, because the implication is that deprivation then are still the areas of deprivation. This local councillors and local authorities want to maintain Government are trying to introduce a direct incentive to deprivation in their areas because they get more money business growth and economic growth in those areas into their coffers. Is he really saying that? In my experience, and right across the country. They are giving local local authorities and local councillors do the jobs they authorities an opportunity to change their view and see do because they want to make the lives of the people the direct incentive to have economic growth. Local whom they serve better; they are not interested in authorities will keep the money, which they can then getting money into their coffers to serve their own invest in the local services that people need. That does purposes. not mean that there is not a need for national investment in local areas when infrastructure improvements and Bob Blackman: I am not saying that councillors, regeneration are needed, but that is very different from council officers or local authorities of any persuasion creating economic growth. deliberately decide that they want their areas to be deprived. I am saying that there is a perverse incentive Mr Betts: There is a danger that we will get locked for those areas to be deprived. The Bill changes that into a discussion in which we simply assume that the presumption. It will be for every local authority where current system has always been in place. Prior to the there is deprivation to encourage and promote prosperity poll tax local authorities kept all their business rates, yet and businesses to set up in their areas, so that there is a since 1945 and probably before, the difference and deliberate move to create economic growth in areas that disparities in deprivation have continued to grow. Local have been unfairly deprived for far too long. economies in different parts of the country have performed very differently, despite local authorities having had the Graham Jones: The hon. Gentleman is being very incentive of business rate retention prior to the poll tax. generous in giving way on that point. I realise that he is The hon. Gentleman’s argument therefore lacks a little under a lot of pressure given the comments he has just if it is taken beyond the particular complications of the made. Does he accept that what we actually see in current system. 827 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 828

Bob Blackman: One of the key historical points is “We’d love to be out of the cycle of deprivation. Just that local authorities used to set their own business not yet. We need another 25 years of money coming in rates, but then pressure from the House changed that from the Government to enable Newham to grow and situation for the simple reason that large local authorities develop.” But despite the huge investment—because of saw the opportunity to milk businesses and set exorbitant the Olympics and investment from Governments of rates, because business did not have a vote. They could different persuasions—it remains one of the most deprived then keep local tax low because they had increased areas in London and the country. My hon. Friend the business rates to milk businesses. That was why the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw), national business rates were introduced. who used to lead Hackney council, will attest to the fact I do not believe that there is an argument for changing that every year in Hackney the local authority was the position so that local authorities determine the level required to identify areas of deprivation and amplify of business rates, but there is a very strong argument, them so that it could appeal to the Government for yet which the Government are advancing, for their retaining more funding. the money that is collected locally. I believe that the Government are being a bit timid in their approach, Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): because I would like more money to be retained locally, My hon. Friend is making an important point. Was not possibly with a slightly less complex formula to make it one problem that there was almost an incentive for a more transparent. However, I recognise that the whole band of an officer class to prove deprivation Government are taking the first step along the way. rather than an incentive to prove and create success? That is how we ended up in this appalling game in Mr Betts: I intervene briefly on a factual point about London of trying to prove who was the poorest borough. what happened prior to the poll tax. Probably one of the reasons why it was brought in was the very large rate Bob Blackman: I completely agree with my hon. increases made by some authorities, such as the one in Friend. I return to my central argument, which is that Sheffield of which I was a member at the time. It is not there was a perverse incentive for deprivation to continue. true that authorities sought to pile all the pain on Here, in the Bill, we are taking the first step—it is not businesses and keep their other taxes low. Actually, the perfect by any means—towards saying, “Instead of domestic and non-domestic rates were linked and could failure, success will be rewarded.” That is the approach be increased only in line with each other. It was not that we seek to take, and it is the right approach to take. possible to increase one without increasing the other. Domestic ratepayers had a vote, of course, and in many I ask the Minister to consider two final points. First, cases were prepared to vote for large increases to protect there is concern about how the scheme will be administered services. and about its fairness and transparency. It is right that we consider the elements of the scheme and undertake Bob Blackman: That, of course, is local democracy—if to conduct a review to ensure that it is working people want to pay higher taxes, they are welcome to do appropriately, fairly and transparently, so that not only so. I am personally a great advocate of annual elections the House but every local authority in the county can to local authorities instead of referendums, so that if say, “Yes, this system works.” councillors want to raise local taxes exorbitantly they will be voted out at the ballot box. I therefore take the Graham Jones: The hon. Gentleman is being hon. Gentleman’s point. exceptionally generous in giving way. I thank him for that. He referred to success. What does he mean by Heidi Alexander: The hon. Gentleman has argued “success”? Does it mean a local authority that leans that incentives have not previously existed for local back in its chair as a large employer turns up, or a local authorities to stimulate economic growth in their area. authority—presumably like the one he ran in Brent—that He is a distinguished former leader of a large London fights to defend and save jobs? There might not be local authority, Harrow. Given that those incentives did growth, but an awful lot of work goes in to maintain the not exist, did he not do anything in his time as leader to position. Which model would he describe as successful? stimulate the local economy in Harrow? Bob Blackman: I was actually the leader of Brent Bob Blackman: That is exactly my second point. In council, not Harrow, but I thank the hon. Lady for large parts of the country, particularly in suburbia, making that point. I was the chairman of a city challenge there has been a gradual leakage of businesses, as company that was part of the London borough of business land—areas designated for business land and Brent, and for five years we had Government money investment—have been turned over to housing. There is flowing in. We retained every job that we had and an incentive for local authorities to do that, because it expanded the number of jobs in the area, but by the end increases the council tax base and makes it easier for of the five years unemployment in the area had increased, local authorities to get new homes bonus money. It not reduced. We had had huge amounts of money but, does, however, reduce the business rate income. At the perversely, unemployment had risen, which meant that moment, those local authorities suffer no penalty for we could go back to the Government and say, “We need doing that. more money.” Under the new system, there can still be a leakage of land and employers. I am talking not about a catastrophic 5.30 pm failure where one major employer closes down—that I will cite another example given to the Communities would obviously be a huge loss to the local authority—but and Local Government Committee when it considered a gradual process, over a number of years, under which the matter. When the mayor of Newham was challenged industrial land has been turned over to housing, resulting over this cycle of deprivation and investment, he said, in a leakage in business rate income. Has the Minister 829 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 830 considered that point? How will it be looked at in the encouraging and promoting growth in their areas. There round? I raised the matter on Second Reading but so far is no problem with that principle at all. The difficulty, we have not had an answer. which is reflected in the responses to the consultation Finally, one thing that will be true in this brave new on the legislation that we are considering today, is that world is that there are risks associated with both the the authorities with a relatively high business rate base, income and expenditure of local authorities. We know or the potential to develop one and grow their business that there are huge numbers of demand-led services rate relatively easily, are obviously all arguing for lower that every local authority must provide—they have been tariffs and top-ups, whereas those that have lower business mentioned already: adult social care, children’s care, rate bases and more difficulty in attracting growth to and so on—and I recognise that. It is also the case that their areas, perhaps including those with the greatest income levels can sometimes be unpredictable. The need, are arguing for more top-ups and tariffs. more predictable they are, the better. However, there is As I said on Second Reading, the Government have a the pooling approach. I wonder whether the Minister fundamental problem. Because of the effective removal can say what directions will be given if certain local of Government grant to local authorities from 2013-14, authorities just sit back and say, “We’re alright, Jack. they are now trying to use the business rate to do two We’re fine. We’ll just keep the money. We’re not going to potentially contradictory things. They are trying to use pool our risk. We’re not going to pool our opportunity. the business rate as a mechanism to encourage growth We won’t co-operate with our neighbours.” That is an and development, rewarding authorities by allowing important point, which the hon. Member for Hyndburn them to keep the business rates that are raised from (Graham Jones) raised. How will the Government direct development and growth, but they are also trying to use local authorities to pool resources, in order to spread it as a method of redistribution to help authorities that risk across a number of authorities? cannot achieve development and growth easily, and that have problems of deprivation. The Government are Mr Betts: I want to speak about set-aside—the principle trying to do two things with one tax, which is a problem. and the calculations—and, in particular, to draw attention That is why we have such a complicated arrangement. to my amendments 44 and 45. This is the first opportunity If there was a separate element of Government grant that I have had during the Committee stage to talk that could be used for redistribution and if authorities about the new, simplified system of local government were then allowed to keep their business rates, separately—as finance that the Government are proposing. [Interruption.] was the case with the old system, which we have just Is that a smile from the Minister? We have to have a discussed with the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob laugh about the terminology, but it was the terminology Blackman)—that would be relatively easy. There would that the Secretary of State used when introducing the be a business rate that was an incentive and a Government consultation proposals. He called it a simplified system, grant for redistribution. The fact is that we do not have but I do not think that anybody, even— the second of those; complications thus arise. Some of us can remember the GREAs—the grant Robert Neill rose— related expenditure assessments—the SSAs or standard spending assessments and other complicated arrangements Mr Betts: Perhaps the Minister is going to talk about like regression analysis that used to be done on all these the new, simplified system. matters. On every consultation, local authorities in various parts of the country would have different views about Robert Neill: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will be the allocation of resources and the finance system—of glad to know that I was smiling just to say how pleased course they did, and the same applies on this occasion. we are to see the Chairman of the Select Committee on What the Secretary of State and this Government have Communities and Local Government among us. managed to do this time, however, is to unite the whole of local government on one fundamental issue—a feat Mr Betts: It is very nice of the Minister to say so, so I that I do not think has been achieved before by any will smile in return. However, even he could not rise Government or any Secretary of State in relation to now and say that this is a simplified system. It is a new local authority finance. system—it is a radical departure—but it is certainly no Every local authority association and every local less complicated than what went before it; rather, it is authority in the country has united against the principle complicated in a different way. of set-aside. They all view this as central Government Let us talk about transparency. By that I mean the putting their hands into the local authority pot and possibility that when a development is put forward in taking money out of it for themselves. When we used to part of a local authority area, it is possible to say to debate local government finance, as we still do, most residents, “If that development is granted, these will be people rightly assumed that it was a debate about the financial consequences”. There is no chance of that finance for local government. Now the debate is going happening with this piece of legislation. It will be very to be about finance from local government, as local difficult for local authority treasurers to explain to their government will be contributing to national Government members collectively what the implications of the new and the national Treasury. We will no longer talk about legislation are, let alone for a local councillor to tell a business rate that is collected locally and distributed residents looking at a planning application, “These are nationally, but a business rate that is collected locally the financial consequences of accepting this proposal.” and spent nationally. That does not strike me as a I have no problem with the principle behind the Bill; terribly localist move. indeed, I think there is a shared principle across the The Government have created a fundamental problem Committee. We all realise that there must be more for themselves with set-aside. One can see the Secretary incentives in the system to reward local authorities for of State sat in his office, snaffling local government 831 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 832

[Mr Betts] across the country—something close to the Secretary of State’s heart. Before looking at set-aside, surely the resources and getting into the Chancellor’s good books Secretary of State ought to consider how far local by passing those resources over and saying, “Look, I’ve authorities have been able to meet such needs. done it again, Chancellor. I’m the good guy in all this; I’m giving you lots more money to spend.” Perhaps it is 5.45 pm more like good cop, bad cop. We generally see the Secretary of State coming along to join the Minister for Annette Brooke: As a genuine point of discussion, let these debates, with the Secretary of State doing the us imagine a situation in which set-aside is used for broad sweep and the Minister knowing the detail. Perhaps reasons that everyone could sign up to, and directed to they will go along to the Local Government Association local government services—an ideal world, I admit. in future when the pantomime season is in bloom. The Despite our desire to march towards localism, would Minister will go along as the wicked uncle, describing not holding back on full localisation in the first few how much the set-aside is going to be worth in that year years be a prudent approach that would reduce uncertainty? and how much is going to be taken away, while the Secretary of State will come along as the fairy godmother Mr Betts: I am not sure, because how the set-aside to say, “Look at all the goodies I’m going to give you ends up being used is fundamental. Will it simply go to back when I spend the set-aside. The problem is that the Treasury, and we never see it again? Alternatively, when I wave my magic wand, what you get might not be will Department for Communities and Local Government what you thought you were going to get, because the or other Ministers say, “We used to fund certain council money is going to be spent on things for which you services, and now we will use set-aside for that.” It will would previously have had a grant.” This is the delusion save central Government money. A classic example is being created. the requirement on local authorities to fund 10% of the cost of council tax benefits in the first year—that will The reaction on the part of local government is almost certainly rise if unemployment rises. What will obvious. It says, “You are asking us to accept 28% cuts stop Ministers saying in future, “We have already established to Government funding over a four-year period and to 10%, so next year it will be 20%, 30% or 40%”? That will cut our fundamental services.” Despite what the Minister bring no benefit in council services or to local taxpayers said to the Select Committee today, there is not a local or councils; it is just a saving to the Treasury. From a authority in the country that is not having to cut social Minister’s point of view, however, it is a neat way of services and social care. That is what is happening. At linking two parts of the Bill together. the same time as local authorities are being asked to make profound cuts to front-line services—it is happening Graham Jones: Another Treasury or DCLG idea to authorities of all persuasions up and down the could be to use the set-aside to pay for wasteful weekly country—the Government are saying, “By the way, we bin collections. are now going to take away from local government resources that could be spent on local services, by Mr Betts: It could be; we are not sure where that means of the set-aside”. funding is coming from. In future, a whole variety of All this explains why I tabled the amendments. things, such as police grant, could be paid for out of Amendment 44, for example, is an attempt to make the set-aside. Things that Government would have paid for point that something must be wrong when a Government through another source could be paid for out of set-aside, say that they are going to take the set-aside away— saving the Treasury money. We do not know, because irrespective of the real needs of local authorities, which the Bill does not contain the detail. All that we can say they are clearly unable to meet in the current financial is that there will be no power at local level, or among situation. local government collectively, to decide such things. Will there be any power in the Chamber to decide such Graham Jones: On the same argument, would my things, or will it all be up to Ministers? hon. Friend add to that the housing benefit and council tax cuts, which are on top of the 28% and have a Mr Ward: The hon. Gentleman makes a crucial point. disproportionate effect on deprived areas? Does this We discussed earlier the uncertainty around not mean that we are talking about cuts of 28% plus—and incentivisation—we do not know what that will lead they are growing rapidly? to—but we can completely remove the uncertainty around the levy account and the safety nets in the central share Mr Betts: My hon. Friend is absolutely right that we if the Minister makes a clear statement about what they should look at the totality of the effects of the cuts on will be used for. local authority budgets. Before the Secretary of State takes this set-aside from local authorities, he should Mr Betts: We could, but I am not sure that Ministers look at what is happening to social care and with will be able to give such an assurance. I say to the council tax increases, which authorities will have to hon. Gentleman that it is his Government who are impose after the freeze or deferment comes to an end. taking these measures, so he may have more influence He should look at what is happening to concessionary over Ministers than those of us on the Opposition travel for young people, which gives them their independence Benches do. and mobility, and to care for the elderly and to road safety schemes, which cannot now go ahead. He should Mr Watts: Is it not possible for a future Government look at what is happening to proper protection for to say, “We will use that set-aside money to reduce private sector tenants from rogue landlords, which council tax”? If so, that money would disappear from authorities will probably not be able to fund, or at the local authorities’ spending level, and overall they would diminishing possibility of providing weekly bin collections have less money to spend on vital services. 833 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 834

Mr Betts: Absolutely. We just do not know. All the Mr Betts: I think it would be considered so by a power and the decision making are going to Ministers localist who wants it to be possible for money that is in a completely opaque way. We have a right to ask raised at local level to be spent at local level. The certain questions. complicating factor is that there must still be some The Government initially introduced the principle element of redistribution. In the past that would have because the comprehensive spending review, in placing been dealt with by means of a Government grant, but limits on local government spending as a whole, created it is now being dealt with through business rates. If a problem for them. It was and is quite possible, with central Government take away any element of that the rise in business rate linked to inflation, for the business rate growth, by definition they are reducing business rate and council tax collection after 2013-14 to the incentives to encourage development and amount to more than the spending control totals. The reducing the amount of money available for redistribution, Government had to find a way of dealing with that thus worsening the problems that they are creating for problem, but there is no reason why it need continue themselves. after the current comprehensive spending review round. Let me issue a challenge to the Minister. Will there be In future, the Government could make an assessment of any limits to, or criteria for, the determination of set-aside the likely increases in business rates on the basis of their in a future comprehensive spending review, or will the new system and accommodate that within the spending Chancellor simply come up with a figure? Will business control totals, thus removing the need for set-aside rates grow according to the level of the RPI, and will altogether. the difference between them constitute the set-aside? I understand the difficulties that the Government Will no more thought be given to it than that? Will there have got themselves into in the current spending round, be any criteria on the basis of which the Government but why continue the principle after that? In amendment 45, may review the system annually, or will the Secretary of I have tried at least to raise the possibility of not State simply say, “I am not giving enough to the Chancellor allowing the set-aside to become an ongoing, potentially this year, so we will have to amend the set-aside increasing amount of money that is decided by Ministers arrangements”? foreverandaday. I return to the question asked the hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke). Will Heidi Alexander: London Councils describes the existence there be any criteria governing what the money can be of the central share beyond the current comprehensive used for? Will it be possible for it simply to go to the spending review period as Treasury, or will there be some understanding that it “a cynical attempt by the Government to limit the extent to which will be spent on local initiatives? Will there be some local government can benefit financially from the growth it will understanding that if it is transferred back to councils drive through its economic development activity and engagement to do certain things, they will be given power to do with the business community.” them? It may well be that there are things to be done by Does my hon. Friend consider that to be a fair assessment local government in the future that are not being done of what the Government are doing? now. We have seen no evidence that any of that will happen. Mr Betts: What the Government are doing is twofold, Will we be given an assurance that the set-aside will because two problems are being exacerbated by the not mean a further dispensation of largesse from the set-aside. By limiting the amount of money in the local Secretary of State and the Minister in the shape of government system, they are reducing not only the more specific and ring-fenced grants? The Government incentives for councils but their own ability to do some have almost completely abandoned ring-fenced grants, redistribution. If they did not use the set-aside and and I support that as a principle. May we have an allowed more money to remain in the local government assurance that the set-aside will not be used as a mechanism system, they might be able to resolve the conflict caused enabling the Secretary of State to say, “Look what I am by their attempt to do two things with one tax. The less giving you: more ring-fenced grants and more specific tax that they have in the system and the more restrictions grants”—thus providing a photo-opportunity for a Minister they impose, the more that conflict will come into to draw attention to what good things are being done play—the conflict between the retention of money to with them by every council in the country? encourage investment and more growth, and the need May we also have some assurances that the Local for redistribution and the mechanism enabling it to take Government Association and local government in general place. will be properly consulted on this each year? They should be consulted about the criteria, the proposals George Hollingbery: I thank the hon. Gentleman for and the arrangements by which set-aside will be used giving way. He is being extremely generous with his and the amounts will be determined. Will there be time. transparency about where set-aside funding comes from and how it is spent across the country and which local A number of Members have pointed out, both today authorities will benefit? and on Second Reading, that there is a relatively limited amount that local government can do to encourage Finally, will we have assurances that this will not be business growth. It occurs to me, from a more philosophical simply a Government matter? This is the House of viewpoint, that economic growth can be a public good, Commons of a sovereign Parliament. The annual decisions and that Government investment elsewhere in the economy about set-aside and how it will be spent must be subject can allow that growth to go ahead. Is it therefore to discussion, debate and a vote in this House. We must entirely unreasonable for central Government to keep have assurances that the ultimate power will remain some of that business rate growth? with Members of Parliament, not Ministers. 835 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 836

Mr Kevan Jones: It is a privilege to follow my hon. play across these district areas is not promoting business Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), in certain parts, and that is having an adverse consequence. who is not only a distinguished Chair of the Select How can business be promoted and how can success be Committee, but had a long and distinguished career in obtained in those conditions? Again, the Government local government. are accountable for this. Today’s debate reminds me of the Second Reading debate in that, as my hon. Friend said, Members on the Mr Kevan Jones: Again, that is part of the contradiction Government Benches are trying to have their cake and in the Government’s thinking and policy. As we have eat it. They want the nirvana of councils keeping all the seen, LEPs are toothless tigers. They are not going to business rates while also recognising that there should produce much growth or investment, as I know from be some redistribution. The hon. Member for Harrow the ones in the north-east. Certain people in the business East (Bob Blackman) made some strange comments community are becoming increasingly cynical and feel about perverse incentives for councils to remain poor. I that LEPs are just going to be talking shops, rather than am yet to meet such a council, but he tried to get his organisations that will do things to regenerate areas or colleagues to help him come up with an example. Councils attract growth. in my area work very hard to attract business and Amendment 19 refers to “need” and, as my hon. prosperity, as they want to make their areas not only Friend the Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) pleasant places to live in but economically active. The said, it sets out the important issues that we need to take Government talk about localism a lot, but this Bill into consideration. I know from my north-east constituency centralises more powers in the hands of the Secretary of that unemployment is a very important issue to take State than any other local government reform of recent into account. The level of unemployment stands at years. 11.7% in the north-east of England, which is 3.5% above On fairness, if we are to have a system whereby the the national average. As my hon. Friend said, contribution from national Government to local unemployment means that additional services are required government is wiped out and we rely on business rates and it puts further strains on local councils, which is to provide the gap in funding, we must address the fact why it is important to take it into account. that different parts of Britain have different needs. This debate is also about where we start from, which Amendment 19 is important as it would ensure that that is why it is important to take the council tax base level is reflected in the system. into account. In the north-east, 50% of properties are in From listening to some Members on the Government the lowest band, band A, whereas the corresponding Benches, people would think some parts of the north figure for Surrey is just 2%, with 75% of properties are responsible for their own unemployment. Those there being in band D and above. It is very difficult for Members fail to remember what happened in the late councils in the north-east to raise extra finance outside 1980s, when huge swathes of industry in the north-east the business rate, so we are not starting on a level were wiped out. Many areas are still recovering from playing field. Mention has been made of South Tyneside, that today. where 66% of properties are in band A, and that must There are also issues to do with population movement, be compared with the figure for Kensington and Chelsea which can lead to extra demands on local councils such of less than 2%. as Durham county, where there is a large elderly population and many people who worked in heavy industry. Health Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend is making a superb needs in such areas are inevitably greater. Moreover, as point about the ability of local authorities to raise County Durham is quite a rural community, even those income from council tax. Is not a major issue for local in work often cannot move from place to place as easily authorities such as his and mine the fact that the as people in large cities. formula grant for 2013-14 will lock in those very real I give credit to councils of all political persuasions cuts that such local authorities will have had to face throughout the country that have tried to encourage from 2011-12 onwards? business into their areas. I am not convinced that keeping a small slice of the business rate is going to have a major Mr Kevan Jones: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for impact, however. We should consider what the mentioning that, because I was about to discuss the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats have done in the baseline, as it has been set at 2011-12 levels. Durham north-east in doing away with One North East. It was county council had a grant reduction last year of some very effective at working with local councils and other £10.9 million, which represents about a 4% loss, and partners to get inward investment and business growth. that is now going to be set in stone for the next 10 years. The hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster Let us compare that with the situation in Wokingham, (Mark Field) is not in his place at the moment, but he in Berkshire, whose authority actually had an increase admitted that it is much easier to get business growth in in its grant of 0.2% and each person living there got an his constituency than it is in mine or in those of many extra 30p in grant. other hon. Members from the north of England. As I said on Second Reading, it is quite clear—I take my hat off to the Conservatives and do not know why 6pm the Liberal Democrats are turning a blind eye to this—that Graham Jones: My hon. Friend raises a crucial point the Conservatives are looking after their own. They that has not been mentioned—the role of local enterprise used to accuse the Labour party of doing so, but the partnerships. Lancashire has had a terrible problem Secretary of State makes no bones about the fact that with LEPs, which are skewing investment in certain he will help the people who voted for him. Does he give areas and not interested in other areas—those who have a stuff about the north-east and other places? No, I do been involved have said as much. The role that LEPs not think he does. 837 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 838

It is important that we consider need because, as I Mr Kevan Jones: Indeed. When local businesses in my said and as my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington constituency want to expand, the first thing they will North said earlier, with unemployment, a more elderly ask is, “Where are the grants?”, but there are none any population and deprivation, people use council services more because One North East has gone and the amount more in such areas. Some 31% of the people living in that the council or anyone else has to give to help is County Durham, for example, live in the top 20% of the usually small. There is a perception that this change will most deprived areas in Britain and 21.8% of children in make a real difference to most areas, but it will not; the the county live in homes that are classed as in poverty. effect will be marginal at most. My hon. Friend is also In Wokingham, that figure is under 7%. The demand right that councils cannot just stop providing elderly for local services in Durham is obviously a lot higher. care and other services. In the present round of cuts, the Likewise, eight people go for every job in County Durham. problem is trying to explain to people what is statutory A good example is looked-after children: in Wokingham, and what is not. This Government know exactly what there are 22 per 10,000 children whereas in Middlesbrough, they are doing—[Interruption.] My hon. Friend the in the north-east, there are 104 per 10,000. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) It is not just about the numbers but about the types of chuckles, but what I mean is that they know exactly services. Elderly care and services for looked-after children what they are doing politically on this issue. are very expensive to provide. There is no cheap way of looking after elderly people or vulnerable children in Graham Stringer: My hon. Friend was going a bit care, so that puts added pressure on those councils. too far. That must be taken into account in any assessment, as otherwise we will do exactly what my hon. Friend the Mr Kevan Jones: A bit far, perhaps. The Government Member for Warrington North said that we would. We know exactly what they are doing. As I said on Second will start from the premise that this Government like to Reading, their strategy is quite clear: they want to give put out, which is that irrespective of where a local freedoms to local councils, push decision making down government organisation is in this country, there is a as far as possible and then, when they have cut grants, level playing field. There is not. Any system must take as they will with council tax benefit and others, they will need into account and that is why amendment 19 is say to local people, “Well, it’s your local council that has important and why I do not understand the Government’s to decide how and where the cuts come.”The Government not being in favour of it. will stand back and say, “We’re sorry, but it’s nothing to Another issue that we heard about on Second Reading do with us.” That is the clever side of it. Part of their and that we have heard about again tonight is the idea strategy is about making sure that they save money and that by retaining a certain percentage of the business cut it out of the system but that local councils, rather rate councils will be able to incentivise and develop than themselves, get the blame for implementing the business. That might well be the case in some areas, but cuts. councils must cater for other factors, one of which is location. My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington Andrew Gwynne: Does my hon. Friend agree that an North mentioned Consett. Consett has actually done unforeseen consequence of the Bill could be that local very well in attracting businesses, but it is a damn sight authorities become overly dependent on one type of harder attracting jobs there than it is in parts of the economic development—the type they can generate the south-east and London. most from in business rates? In an area such as mine, that would mean an overdependence on retail. Graham Stringer: Does my hon. Friend agree that a local authority cannot possibly be incentivised to do more—most of them want to do quite a lot—by reducing Mr Kevan Jones: My hon. Friend makes a very good the overall level of resources? The contention that a point. In terms of economic development, local authorities little incentive on one hand and a huge loss of grant on might go for what will generate income rather than the other will mean that they work harder is extraordinary. what will create the right mixture. Although retail shopping and warehousing produce business rates, they do not Mr Kevan Jones: I totally agree with my hon. Friend. produce large numbers of local jobs, but there might be It is a double whammy for local authorities, really, as a growth in those types of business in some areas. even if they could keep some of the money and use it We should not be fooled into believing that the for incentivisation, the huge proposed cut through the Government do not know what they are doing, because 10% reduction in council tax benefit that they will have they do know. They are passing legislation down to to administer will fall disproportionately on areas with local government and making sure that those in central large numbers of unemployed people and the elderly. Government do not get the blame. We need to be saying Absorbing that will be very difficult for a lot of councils, that these cuts have been implemented because of the certainly in the hard economic times we are in at the Government—including the Liberal Democrats. It amazes moment. As unemployment goes up, the pressures on me that Liberal Democrats in Durham can complain the councils will increase, too. about the closure of leisure services or a leisure centre while stepping back and saying, “It’s nothing to do with Mr Watts: Is it not the case that if a deprived local us,” even though their representatives on the Front authority gets less grant, one way or the other, it will Bench in government and others are going through the still have to provide the key services that my hon. Friend Lobby to vote for such measures, as they will tonight. refers to, which will mean that it will have less money to Without amendment 19, and without some assessment develop economic development initiatives in its areas? of need in the Bill, I have little faith that the Government That will go counter to the Government’s stated intention will not do what they have a track record of doing: for this proposal. rewarding the areas that vote for them. 839 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 840

Robert Neill: The debate on these amendments has incentives in local government. Can he name one council been lengthy and wide-ranging, and I shall do my best where that is the case? The hon. Member for Harrow to do justice to the points raised. Some of them were East (Bob Blackman) could not. specific, technical and helpful, whereas others seemed to seek to reopen elements of the Second Reading Robert Neill: My hon. Friend specifically gave the debate and, perhaps, the debate on the finance settlement. example of his own council. The point that the hon. I am afraid that sometimes they were rather wide of the Gentleman and many other Opposition Members do mark. In general, I regret to say that I shall ask the not get is that the Bill is not just about dealing with the Committee to reject all these amendments if they are short-term issues of one-year funding settlements. It is not withdrawn because they seem to miss some fundamental about creating a system that certainly has an element of points. First, the system already recognises a balancing equalisation in it, because as we all know, all local of need and resources: that happens now and will government finance systems going back many years continue to happen. Secondly, if we are to move away have always had a degree of equalisation. The hon. from a system of excessive dependency by local government Member for Sheffield South East, the Chairman of the on central Government grant in order to reduce reliance Select Committee— on central Government grant and create incentives for growth at a local and national level, we have to move Graham Jones: Will the Minister give way? away from the current, highly centralised system. Nothing has been advanced to suggest that the current system Robert Neill: I will make a little progress before I give produces the transparency— way again. The hon. Member for Sheffield South East took us a Mr Watts: Will the Minister give way? little way down memory lane with GREs and SSAs. There has always been an element of equalisation and Robert Neill: The hon. Gentleman has been very that will continue. The rather complicated and highly vocal, so I shall make a little progress and perhaps give prescriptive process that is built into the amendments way in due course. Serious points were raised in debate, does not improve on what is set out in the Bill. Indeed, it and I will do my best to respond to them, if I may. would undermine some of the key objectives of the Bill. 6.15 pm The hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) and her hon. Friends are seeking to place what we I accept some of the points made by the hon. Member regard as an unnecessary requirement on the Secretary for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) and the right hon. of State to undertake multiple and frequent assessments Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) of needs. That undermines the key objective of long-term about the objective of, and a desire for, greater localisation, certainty which provides the incentive and also stability but that has not happened under the current system. in a local authority’s funding. As it is, the needs and Sadly, despite the fact that some Members would deny resources elements are taken into account at the setting it, there is force to the point made by my hon. Friend of the baseline. The baseline is set and then it runs the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) and forward. They are taken into account. Some people say, others that perverse incentives in the current system “Go back to a previous year on the baseline”, even sometimes lead to perverse behaviour, with more emphasis though that would involve more out-of-date data and placed on ticking the boxes that can demonstrate need formulae. Many would say that that was not fair. than harnessing the undoubted energies that local government has—[Interruption.] and in which I have Several hon. Members rose— faith to drive forward economic growth. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) is, as Robert Neill: Let me finish the point and hon. Members usual, very vocal from a sedentary position, which is his may find that their intervention falls into place better. more usual form of contribution to debate. Local authorities’ baseline funding levels are set on The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means the basis of the 2012-13 formula grant. The calculation (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Mr Jones, please stop shouting of the tariffs and the top-ups will then ensure that the across the Chamber. Either try and intervene or please funding at the outset of the scheme is in line with that be quiet. assessment of relative need and resource. That is in our system. After that, the baseline levels, tariffs and top-up Mr Kevan Jones rose— funding remain fixed and the budgets grow in line with the incentive. Robert Neill: Before I give way to the hon. Gentleman, If the system is reset too frequently, that undermines he might like to reflect on this. He has been very vocal the incentive that we wish to achieve, and in particular it about the Second Reading debate. I remind him of this severely diminishes the value of the important introduction passage, when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of in the Bill of tax increment financing. For tax increment State, following this very point, said: financing, which the local government world has wanted “Economic success is not a southern phenomenon”, for a long time and which the Lyons review advocated and the hon. Gentleman intervened and said: introducing, it is important to have a reasonable degree “Yes, it is.”—[Official Report, 10 January 2012; Vol. 538, c. 81.] of certainty about the income stream against which we Would he like to explain that? can securitise. That is undermined if interference and change in the system are too frequent. Mr Jones: The Minister does not quite understand. It I understand the point made by my hon. Friend the is for me to ask him questions in interventions, not the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark other way round. He said that there were perverse Field) about uprating in line with the RPI, and I accept 841 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 842 that there has to be a degree of trade-off in this. It financial constraints that we are under, and I understand means that top-up local authorities will have a degree of why the Government have tried to provide such incentives assurance throughout the period of the reset that their to freeze the council tax at the moment, but in the income levels will grow by inflation. That is particularly longer term, the rebalancing to which he refers should important in the case of two-tier areas, where the county ensure that local government has other full sources of councils responsible for a large number of personal income possibly to rely upon. services will be predominantly top-up authorities. Much the same will apply to other precepting authorities, such Robert Neill: I understand my hon. Friend’s point. as the combined and stand-alone fire and rescue authorities. He refers to the council tax, which is a separate part of I accept that arguments were made on either side, but, the income stream from the business rates. Of course, as is always the case, a balance has to be achieved, as I we have ourselves removed capping and substituted the know my hon. Friend will recognise. ability, even under current circumstances, for a local authority to go to its voters by way of a referendum, Mr Watts: I accept that revaluation too often can which is a move in the direction of giving greater cause a problem, but does the Minister agree that the flexibility. It is the authority’s local call. In relation to valuation process has not been changed for many years the business rates element of its income, I restate that it and the longer the period without a revaluation, the is our desire to ensure that there is flexibility for the more likely it is that no Government will do it because it future. This is not intended to be a system that lasts for will make such a difference and there will be winners two or three years. I am in favour of multiple-year and losers? There has to be some sort of judgment funding settlements, which I think we all agree on, but between how long is too short and how long is too long our system is intended to last for a much longer period. for a review, and is not 10 years too long? I hope that that reassures hon. Members.

Robert Neill: I do not think that 10 years is too long. Mr Betts: I thank the Minister for the slight reassurances We think that it gives a sensible balance. But it is a good about his thinking on the future of the set-aside, but reason not to put such matters in primary legislation will he reflect on the fact that many countries manage a and to say instead that they should be developed through different relationship between central and local government regulations, which, as we know, will be subject to scrutiny with more flexibility for local government? Can he by the House. I should have thought that that meets think of any other advanced western democracy where the hon. Gentleman’s point. An assessment is built into local government taxes are used by central Government the system, which is then taken forward. That is why the for their own purposes, rather than for those of local updating report is there. authorities? A second point concerns the question of the central share and the set-aside. I am sure that when hon. Robert Neill: It is perfectly fair to observe that the Members reflect upon this they will realise that we have local government finance system in this country is highly always made it clear that over time, particularly when centralised, and many of us have often said that we we have put the public finances back on track, we would want to make it less so. The Bill will do precisely that. I hope to increase the proportion of business rates to the am reminded of the old phrase, “Half a loaf is better part of the rates retention scheme. But it would be than none.” As the hon. Gentleman will know, the imprudent to suppose—Opposition Members would Lyons inquiry into local government, which the previous not have done so when they were in government—that Government established, found that the system was too there might never be an occasion when the central share centralised, but Opposition Members conveniently ignored might need to be maintained, or on occasion, heaven that when in government. We are doing something forbid, increased. I believe that the economic policies of about it, so his ambition is being met at least in part. the Government will mean that it is not necessary, but legislation has to cater for various eventualities. As I I will say something about how this will operate. The say, it is our aspiration that that should increase, but central and local shares will have to be set out in the equally, as hon. Members will know, the Government annual local government finance report. We will consult have, and will always have, an interest in the totality of local government on the draft report, as we currently public spending. To expect the Government to have no do, which will then be laid before the House and subject control over local government finance, when it is such a to the rigour of parliamentary scrutiny. A statutory significant percentage of public expenditure, would be consultation, as proposed in amendment 38, is unnecessary, unrealistic. That is not the case under the current scheme, as that will happen as a matter of course. We do not and it would not be realistic in future. In that regard, envisage that the shares, once they have been set at the some of the amendments would constrain the Government outset, will be changed from year to year. That gives unrealistically, and I hope hon. Members will understand certainty that the uprating for the top-ups and tariffs why. will be protected until we come to a reset. We have already debated what will be the most appropriate Mark Field: I accept that the straitened financial period before a reset. That is why amendment 37 does times make things very difficult, but do I take from not give any greater clarity. what my hon. Friend has said that there is a longer-term The Government’s intention is that the money that aspiration, if not necessarily a fully fledged commitment comes into the central share will be returned in its at this stage, that we should look to allow local authorities entirety to local government, as currently required by to raise the council tax in future to ensure that there is a the Finance Act 1988. We will do so by funding local little more of a balance; that some more of the money government by grant that is outside what is currently that they are expending comes from local residents? I formula grant and will now be in the rates retention accept that this is not a short-term measure given the scheme. There are plenty of examples of localised grants 843 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 844

[Robert Neill] they collect. These are both benign amendments that, in a modest way, strengthen the position of local authorities that are made in that way—for example those relating even further. I accept that this is a marginal part of the to neighbourhood policing and homelessness grants. system, but it is none the less important to get it right. The suggestion, from the authors of the current system, I urge Members to support the two Government that that is centralising should win the award for chutzpah amendments and hope that they will reject the amendments of the year so far, although it is only 18 January. of Opposition Members if they are pressed to a vote. These changes are an important step towards localisation. Amendment 46 negatived. There is a great deal of detail and we have undertaken Amendments made: 1, page 11, line 31, after ‘exceed’ to consult on the regulations, and I assure hon. Members insert ‘—(a)’. that they will be subject to the scrutiny procedures of the House. As I said earlier, we have set up a working Amendment 2, page 11, line 32, leave out ‘(1)(c)’ and group at official level to talk through the details with insert the local government sector. ‘(1)(a), (b) and (c), minus I have a great deal of respect for the right hon. (b) the total amount debited for the year under Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey), sub-paragraph (2)(a)’.—(Robert Neill.) who is no longer in his place but, for the reasons I have Amendment proposed: 19, page 12, line 20, at end set out, I do not believe that amendment 46 is necessary insert— to achieve a degree of fairness in the system. It would (c) in determining the central share and the local share for have a perverse effect, as it would prevent any of the any relevant authority, the Secretary of State must central share money from being used to fund transitional have regard to— protection arrangements under the transitional rate (i) the level of need in that authority, relief scheme. Schedule 1, as drafted, permits that, (ii) the likely capacity of the authority to benefit from business rate growth, and which means that transitional payments under the rate (iii) the council tax base of the authority. relief scheme would not fall on local government. Central Any assessment of the level of need in the authority shall Government would be in a position to pick up the cost include— if disparities arose. Under the amendments, the costs (iv) the ranking of the local authority in the Index of would have to fall on local government, which is not his Multiple Deprivation, intention. I hope that he will consider withdrawing the (v) the level of unemployment within the authority’s amendment before we come to vote. area, I will turn briefly to the two Government amendments (vi) the proportion of adults with a limiting long-term in the group. They relate to seriously technical parts of illness within the authority’s area, the schedule. I apologise for that, but they are important. (vii) the number of adults in receipt of social care First, they increase the amount that can be debited within the authority’s area, from the main rating account to include payments (viii) the number of looked-after children within the authority, and received in respect of central list contributions and (ix) the level of child poverty within the authority’s payments that are made as contributions in aid. Those area.’.—(Helen Jones.) payments are made directly to the Secretary of State. Question put, That the amendment be made. 6.30 pm The Committee divided: Ayes 232, Noes 318. The central list relates essentially to occupiers of Division No. 425] [6.32 pm network property. That is entered not on any individual local authority’s rating list, but on the central rating list. AYES Contributions in aid relate to certain property that is Abbott, Ms Diane Blears, rh Hazel exempt from rating and is occupied by central Government, Abrahams, Debbie Blenkinsop, Tom such as that for visiting forces, international headquarters Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Blomfield, Paul and so on. We want to ensure that that is not counted in Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Blunkett, rh Mr David a way that is to the detriment of local government in Alexander, Heidi Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben determining the appropriate shares. By allowing those Ali, Rushanara Brennan, Kevin sums to be included, the amendments will reduce the Allen, Mr Graham Brown, rh Mr Nicholas central share and allow local government to keep more Anderson, Mr David Brown, Mr Russell of the local rates that they raise. They are technical Ashworth, Jonathan Bryant, Chris amendments, but they work to the advantage of the Austin, Ian Buck, Ms Karen local authority sector as a whole. Bailey, Mr Adrian Burden, Richard Bain, Mr William Burnham, rh Andy Secondly, the amendments will ensure that central Balls, rh Ed Campbell, Mr Alan Government cannot debit any sums that need to be Banks, Gordon Campbell, Mr Ronnie repaid in respect of an earlier year. It sometimes happens Barron, rh Mr Kevin Caton, Martin that in the course of a year, authorities are expected to Bayley, Hugh Chapman, Mrs Jenny pay their central share contribution on the basis of an Beckett, rh Margaret Clark, Katy estimate made at the start of the year. That happens to Begg, Dame Anne Clarke, rh Mr Tom some degree now in the calculation of business rate Bell, Sir Stuart Coaker, Vernon payments and there is a reconciliation at the end of the Benn, rh Hilary Coffey, Ann year. The amendments will simply ensure that reconciliation Benton, Mr Joe Connarty, Michael works in a way that allows payments to be made back to Berger, Luciana Cooper, Rosie local authorities. Again, that will ensure that local Betts, Mr Clive Crausby, Mr David authorities keep a bigger share of the local rates that Blackman-Woods, Roberta Creagh, Mary 845 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 846

Creasy, Stella Johnson, rh Alan Ruane, Chris Turner, Karl Cruddas, Jon Johnson, Diana Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Twigg, Derek Cryer, John Jones, Helen Sarwar, Anas Twigg, Stephen Cunningham, Alex Jones, Mr Kevan Seabeck, Alison Umunna, Mr Chuka Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Susan Elan Sharma, Mr Virendra Vaz, rh Keith Cunningham, Tony Jowell, rh Tessa Sheerman, Mr Barry Vaz, Valerie Curran, Margaret Joyce, Eric Sheridan, Jim Walley, Joan Dakin, Nic Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Shuker, Gavin Watson, Mr Tom Danczuk, Simon Keeley, Barbara Skinner, Mr Dennis Watts, Mr Dave Darling, rh Mr Alistair Kendall, Liz Slaughter, Mr Andy Whitehead, Dr Alan David, Mr Wayne Lammy, rh Mr David Smith, rh Mr Andrew Williamson, Chris De Piero, Gloria Lavery, Ian Smith, Angela Wilson, Phil Dobbin, Jim Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, Nick Winnick, Mr David Dobson, rh Frank Leslie, Chris Smith, Owen Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Docherty, Thomas Lewis, Mr Ivan Spellar, rh Mr John Wood, Mike Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lloyd, Tony Stringer, Graham Woodcock, John Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Love, Mr Andrew Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Doran, Mr Frank Lucas, Ian Tami, Mark Wright, David Dowd, Jim MacShane, rh Mr Denis Thomas, Mr Gareth Wright, Mr Iain Doyle, Gemma Mactaggart, Fiona Thornberry, Emily Tellers for the Ayes: Dromey, Jack Mahmood, Mr Khalid Timms, rh Stephen Lyn Brown and Dugher, Michael Mahmood, Shabana Trickett, Jon Graham Jones Eagle, Ms Angela Malhotra, Seema Efford, Clive Mann, John Elliott, Julie Marsden, Mr Gordon NOES Ellman, Mrs Louise McCabe, Steve Adams, Nigel Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Engel, Natascha McCann, Mr Michael Afriyie, Adam Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Esterson, Bill McCarthy, Kerry Aldous, Peter Carmichael, Neil Evans, Chris McClymont, Gregg Andrew, Stuart Carswell, Mr Douglas Farrelly, Paul McDonagh, Siobhain Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Cash, Mr William Field, rh Mr Frank McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Bacon, Mr Richard Chishti, Rehman Fitzpatrick, Jim McDonnell, John Baker, Norman Chope, Mr Christopher Flello, Robert McFadden, rh Mr Pat Baker, Steve Clappison, Mr James Flint, rh Caroline McGovern, Jim Baldry, Tony Clark, rh Greg Flynn, Paul McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Baldwin, Harriett Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Fovargue, Yvonne McKechin, Ann Barclay, Stephen Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Francis, Dr Hywel McKenzie, Mr Iain Barker, Gregory Coffey, Dr Thérèse Gapes, Mike McKinnell, Catherine Barwell, Gavin Collins, Damian Gardiner, Barry Meacher, rh Mr Michael Bebb, Guto Colvile, Oliver Gilmore, Sheila Meale, Sir Alan Beith, rh Sir Alan Cox, Mr Geoffrey Glass, Pat Mearns, Ian Bellingham, Mr Henry Crabb, Stephen Glindon, Mrs Mary Michael, rh Alun Benyon, Richard Crockart, Mike Godsiff, Mr Roger Miliband, rh David Beresford, Sir Paul Crouch, Tracey Goggins, rh Paul Miller, Andrew Berry, Jake Davey, Mr Edward Goodman, Helen Mitchell, Austin Bingham, Andrew Davies, David T. C. Greatrex, Tom Moon, Mrs Madeleine Binley, Mr Brian (Monmouth) Green, Kate Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Birtwistle, Gordon Davies, Glyn Greenwood, Lilian Morris, Grahame M. Blackman, Bob Davies, Philip Griffith, Nia (Easington) Blunt, Mr Crispin Davis, rh Mr David Gwynne, Andrew Mudie, Mr George Boles, Nick de Bois, Nick Hain, rh Mr Peter Munn, Meg Bone, Mr Peter Dinenage, Caroline Hamilton, Mr David Murphy, rh Mr Jim Bottomley, Sir Peter Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hamilton, Fabian Murphy, rh Paul Bradley, Karen Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hanson, rh Mr David Murray, Ian Brady, Mr Graham Dorries, Nadine Harris, Mr Tom Nandy, Lisa Brake, rh Tom Doyle-Price, Jackie Havard, Mr Dai Nash, Pamela Bray, Angie Drax, Richard Healey, rh John O’Donnell, Fiona Brazier, Mr Julian Duddridge, James Hendrick, Mark Onwurah, Chi Bridgen, Andrew Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hepburn, Mr Stephen Osborne, Sandra Brine, Steve Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Heyes, David Owen, Albert Brooke, Annette Dunne, Mr Philip Hillier, Meg Pearce, Teresa Browne, Mr Jeremy Ellis, Michael Hilling, Julie Pound, Stephen Bruce, Fiona Ellison, Jane Hodge, rh Margaret Qureshi, Yasmin Bruce, rh Malcolm Elphicke, Charlie Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Buckland, Mr Robert Eustice, George Hoey, Kate Reed, Mr Jamie Burley, Mr Aidan Evans, Graham Hopkins, Kelvin Reeves, Rachel Burns, Conor Evennett, Mr David Howarth, rh Mr George Reynolds, Emma Burrowes, Mr David Fabricant, Michael Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Jonathan Burstow, Paul Fallon, Michael Irranca-Davies, Huw Riordan, Mrs Linda Burt, Lorely Farron, Tim James, Mrs Siân C. Rotheram, Steve Byles, Dan Featherstone, Lynne Jamieson, Cathy Roy, Mr Frank Cable, rh Vince Field, Mark Jarvis, Dan Roy, Lindsay Cairns, Alun Foster, rh Mr Don 847 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 848

Fox,rhDrLiam Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Raab, Mr Dominic Syms, Mr Robert Francois, rh Mr Mark Latham, Pauline Randall, rh Mr John Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Freeman, George Laws, rh Mr David Reckless, Mark Teather, Sarah Freer, Mike Leadsom, Andrea Rees-Mogg, Jacob Thurso, John Fullbrook, Lorraine Lee, Jessica Reevell, Simon Timpson, Mr Edward Fuller, Richard Lee, Dr Phillip Reid, Mr Alan Tomlinson, Justin Gale, Sir Roger Lefroy, Jeremy Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Tredinnick, David Garnier, Mark Leigh, Mr Edward Robertson, Mr Laurence Truss, Elizabeth Gauke, Mr David Leslie, Charlotte Rogerson, Dan Turner, Mr Andrew George, Andrew Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rosindell, Andrew Tyrie, Mr Andrew Gibb, Mr Nick Lewis, Brandon Rudd, Amber Uppal, Paul Gilbert, Stephen Lewis, Dr Julian Ruffley, Mr David Vara, Mr Shailesh Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Russell, Sir Bob Vickers, Martin Glen, John Lidington, rh Mr David Rutley, David Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Goldsmith, Zac Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sanders, Mr Adrian Walker, Mr Charles Goodwill, Mr Robert Lloyd, Stephen Sandys, Laura Walker, Mr Robin Gove, rh Michael Lopresti, Jack Scott, Mr Lee Walter, Mr Robert Graham, Richard Lord, Jonathan Selous, Andrew Ward, Mr David Grant, Mrs Helen Loughton, Tim Shapps, rh Grant Watkinson, Angela Gray, Mr James Luff, Peter Sharma, Alok Weatherley, Mike Grayling, rh Chris Lumley, Karen Shelbrooke, Alec Green, Damian Main, Mrs Anne Shepherd, Mr Richard Wheeler, Heather Greening, rh Justine Maynard, Paul Simpson, Mr Keith White, Chris Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCartney, Jason Skidmore, Chris Whittaker, Craig Gummer, Ben McCartney, Karl Smith, Miss Chloe Whittingdale, Mr John Gyimah, Mr Sam McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Henry Wiggin, Bill Halfon, Robert McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Soames, rh Nicholas Willetts, rh Mr David Hames, Duncan McPartland, Stephen Soubry, Anna Williams, Mr Mark Hammond, rh Mr Philip McVey, Esther Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Williams, Roger Hammond, Stephen Mensch, Louise Spencer, Mr Mark Williams, Stephen Hancock, Matthew Menzies, Mark Stanley, rh Sir John Williamson, Gavin Hancock, Mr Mike Mercer, Patrick Stephenson, Andrew Willott, Jenny Hands, Greg Metcalfe, Stephen Stevenson, John Wilson, Mr Rob Harper, Mr Mark Miller, Maria Stewart, Bob Wilson, Sammy Harrington, Richard Mills, Nigel Stewart, Iain Wollaston, Dr Sarah Harris, Rebecca Milton, Anne Stewart, Rory Wright, Simon Hart, Simon Moore, rh Michael Streeter, Mr Gary Yeo, Mr Tim Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mordaunt, Penny Stride, Mel Young, rh Sir George Hayes, Mr John Morgan, Nicky Stuart, Mr Graham Zahawi, Nadhim Heald, Oliver Morris, Anne Marie Stunell, Andrew Heath, Mr David Morris, David Sturdy, Julian Tellers for the Noes: Hemming, John Morris, James Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Jeremy Wright and Hendry, Charles Mosley, Stephen Swinson, Jo Mark Hunter Herbert, rh Nick Mowat, David Hinds, Damian Munt, Tessa Question accordingly negatived. Hoban, Mr Mark Murray, Sheryll Hollingbery, George Murrison, Dr Andrew Amendment proposed: 39, page 15, line 17, leave out Hollobone, Mr Philip Neill, Robert from ‘must’ to end of line 19 and insert Holloway, Mr Adam Newmark, Mr Brooks ‘prepare and publish an assessment of the level of need in each Hopkins, Kris Newton, Sarah local authority, as defined in paragraph 4(c) above. The Secretary Horwood, Martin Nokes, Caroline of State must— Howarth, Mr Gerald Norman, Jesse (a) lay the report containing the assessment before the Howell, John Nuttall, Mr David House at least 14 sitting days in advance of the Hughes, rh Simon Offord, Mr Matthew publication of the Local Government Finance Report, Huhne, rh Chris Ollerenshaw, Eric and Huppert, Dr Julian Opperman, Guy (b) notify such representatives of local government as the Hurd, Mr Nick Ottaway, Richard Secretary of State thinks fit of the publication of the Jackson, Mr Stewart Paice, rh Mr James report on need and the detail of the basis of calculation James, Margot Parish, Neil in the Local Government Finance Report.’.—(Helen Javid, Sajid Patel, Priti Jones.) Jenkin, Mr Bernard Paterson, rh Mr Owen Question put, That the amendment be made. Johnson, Gareth Pawsey, Mark Johnson, Joseph Penning, Mike The Committee divided: Ayes 228, Noes 318. Jones, Andrew Penrose, John Division No. 426] [6.49 pm Jones, Mr Marcus Percy, Andrew Kawczynski, Daniel Perry, Claire AYES Kelly, Chris Phillips, Stephen Abbott, Ms Diane Ali, Rushanara Kirby, Simon Pincher, Christopher Abrahams, Debbie Allen, Mr Graham Knight, rh Mr Greg Poulter, Dr Daniel Kwarteng, Kwasi Prisk, Mr Mark Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Anderson, Mr David Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pritchard, Mark Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Ashworth, Jonathan Lancaster, Mark Pugh, John Alexander, Heidi Austin, Ian 849 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 850

Bailey, Mr Adrian Fovargue, Yvonne McKinnell, Catherine Sheerman, Mr Barry Bain, Mr William Francis, Dr Hywel Meacher, rh Mr Michael Sheridan, Jim Banks, Gordon Gapes, Mike Meale, Sir Alan Shuker, Gavin Barron, rh Mr Kevin Gardiner, Barry Mearns, Ian Skinner, Mr Dennis Bayley, Hugh Gilmore, Sheila Michael, rh Alun Slaughter, Mr Andy Beckett, rh Margaret Glass, Pat Miliband, rh David Smith, rh Mr Andrew Begg, Dame Anne Glindon, Mrs Mary Miller, Andrew Smith, Angela Bell, Sir Stuart Godsiff, Mr Roger Mitchell, Austin Smith, Nick Benn, rh Hilary Goggins, rh Paul Moon, Mrs Madeleine Smith, Owen Benton, Mr Joe Goodman, Helen Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Spellar, rh Mr John Berger, Luciana Greatrex, Tom Morris, Grahame M. Stringer, Graham Betts, Mr Clive Green, Kate (Easington) Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Blackman-Woods, Roberta Greenwood, Lilian Mudie, Mr George Tami, Mark Blears, rh Hazel Griffith, Nia Munn, Meg Thomas, Mr Gareth Blenkinsop, Tom Gwynne, Andrew Murphy, rh Mr Jim Thornberry, Emily Blomfield, Paul Hain, rh Mr Peter Murphy, rh Paul Timms, rh Stephen Blunkett, rh Mr David Hamilton, Mr David Murray, Ian Trickett, Jon Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hamilton, Fabian Nandy, Lisa Brennan, Kevin Hanson, rh Mr David Nash, Pamela Turner, Karl Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Harris, Mr Tom O’Donnell, Fiona Twigg, Derek Brown, Mr Russell Havard, Mr Dai Onwurah, Chi Twigg, Stephen Bryant, Chris Healey, rh John Osborne, Sandra Umunna, Mr Chuka Buck, Ms Karen Hendrick, Mark Owen, Albert Vaz, rh Keith Burden, Richard Hepburn, Mr Stephen Pearce, Teresa Vaz, Valerie Burnham, rh Andy Heyes, David Pound, Stephen Walley, Joan Campbell, Mr Alan Hillier, Meg Qureshi, Yasmin Watts, Mr Dave Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hilling, Julie Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Whitehead, Dr Alan Caton, Martin Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reed, Mr Jamie Williamson, Chris Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hoey, Kate Reeves, Rachel Wilson, Phil Clark, Katy Hopkins, Kelvin Reynolds, Emma Winnick, Mr David Clarke, rh Mr Tom Howarth, rh Mr George Reynolds, Jonathan Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Coffey, Ann Hunt, Tristram Riordan, Mrs Linda Wood, Mike Connarty, Michael Irranca-Davies, Huw Rotheram, Steve Woodcock, John Cooper, Rosie James, Mrs Siân C. Roy, Mr Frank Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Crausby, Mr David Jamieson, Cathy Roy, Lindsay Wright, David Creagh, Mary Jarvis, Dan Ruane, Chris Wright, Mr Iain Creasy, Stella Johnson, rh Alan Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Cruddas, Jon Johnson, Diana Sarwar, Anas Tellers for the Ayes: Cryer, John Jones, Helen Seabeck, Alison Lyn Brown and Cunningham, Alex Jones, Mr Kevan Sharma, Mr Virendra Graham Jones Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Susan Elan Cunningham, Tony Jowell, rh Tessa NOES Curran, Margaret Joyce, Eric Dakin, Nic Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Adams, Nigel Brake, rh Tom Danczuk, Simon Keeley, Barbara Afriyie, Adam Bray, Angie Darling, rh Mr Alistair Kendall, Liz Aldous, Peter Brazier, Mr Julian David, Mr Wayne Lammy, rh Mr David Andrew, Stuart Bridgen, Andrew De Piero, Gloria Lavery, Ian Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Brine, Steve Denham, rh Mr John Lazarowicz, Mark Bacon, Mr Richard Brooke, Annette Dobbin, Jim Leslie, Chris Baker, Norman Browne, Mr Jeremy Dobson, rh Frank Lloyd, Tony Baker, Steve Bruce, Fiona Docherty, Thomas Love, Mr Andrew Baldry, Tony Bruce, rh Malcolm Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lucas, Ian Baldwin, Harriett Buckland, Mr Robert Donohoe, Mr Brian H. MacShane, rh Mr Denis Barclay, Stephen Burley, Mr Aidan Doran, Mr Frank Mactaggart, Fiona Barker, Gregory Burns, Conor Dowd, Jim Mahmood, Mr Khalid Barwell, Gavin Burrowes, Mr David Doyle, Gemma Mahmood, Shabana Bebb, Guto Burstow, Paul Dromey, Jack Malhotra, Seema Beith, rh Sir Alan Burt, Lorely Dugher, Michael Mann, John Bellingham, Mr Henry Byles, Dan Eagle, Ms Angela Marsden, Mr Gordon Benyon, Richard Cable, rh Vince Efford, Clive McCabe, Steve Beresford, Sir Paul Cairns, Alun Elliott, Julie McCann, Mr Michael Berry, Jake Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Ellman, Mrs Louise McCarthy, Kerry Bingham, Andrew Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Engel, Natascha McClymont, Gregg Binley, Mr Brian Carmichael, Neil Esterson, Bill McDonagh, Siobhain Birtwistle, Gordon Carswell, Mr Douglas Evans, Chris McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Blackman, Bob Chishti, Rehman Farrelly, Paul McDonnell, John Blunt, Mr Crispin Chope, Mr Christopher Field, rh Mr Frank McFadden, rh Mr Pat Boles, Nick Clappison, Mr James Fitzpatrick, Jim McGovern, Jim Bone, Mr Peter Clark, rh Greg Flello, Robert McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Bottomley, Sir Peter Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Flint, rh Caroline McKechin, Ann Bradley, Karen Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Flynn, Paul McKenzie, Mr Iain Brady, Mr Graham Coffey, Dr Thérèse 851 Local Government Finance Bill18 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 852

Collins, Damian Hart, Simon Mordaunt, Penny Soames, rh Nicholas Colvile, Oliver Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morgan, Nicky Soubry, Anna Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hayes, Mr John Morris, Anne Marie Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Crabb, Stephen Heald, Oliver Morris, David Spencer, Mr Mark Crockart, Mike Heath, Mr David Morris, James Stanley, rh Sir John Crouch, Tracey Hemming, John Mosley, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Davey, Mr Edward Hendry, Charles Mowat, David Stevenson, John Davies, David T. C. Herbert, rh Nick Munt, Tessa Stewart, Bob (Monmouth) Hinds, Damian Murray, Sheryll Stewart, Iain Davies, Glyn Hoban, Mr Mark Murrison, Dr Andrew Stewart, Rory Davies, Philip Hollingbery, George Neill, Robert Streeter, Mr Gary Davis, rh Mr David Hollobone, Mr Philip Newmark, Mr Brooks Stride, Mel de Bois, Nick Holloway, Mr Adam Newton, Sarah Stuart, Mr Graham Dinenage, Caroline Hopkins, Kris Nokes, Caroline Stunell, Andrew Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Horwood, Martin Norman, Jesse Sturdy, Julian Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Howarth, Mr Gerald Nuttall, Mr David Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Dorries, Nadine Howell, John Offord, Mr Matthew Swinson, Jo Doyle-Price, Jackie Hughes, rh Simon Ollerenshaw, Eric Syms, Mr Robert Drax, Richard Huhne, rh Chris Opperman, Guy Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Duddridge, James Huppert, Dr Julian Ottaway, Richard Teather, Sarah Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hurd, Mr Nick Paice, rh Mr James Thurso, John Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jackson, Mr Stewart Parish, Neil Timpson, Mr Edward Dunne, Mr Philip James, Margot Patel, Priti Tomlinson, Justin Ellis, Michael Javid, Sajid Paterson, rh Mr Owen Tredinnick, David Ellison, Jane Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pawsey, Mark Truss, Elizabeth Ellwood, Mr Tobias Johnson, Gareth Penning, Mike Turner, Mr Andrew Elphicke, Charlie Johnson, Joseph Penrose, John Tyrie, Mr Andrew Eustice, George Jones, Andrew Percy, Andrew Uppal, Paul Evans, Graham Jones, Mr Marcus Perry, Claire Vickers, Martin Evennett, Mr David Kawczynski, Daniel Phillips, Stephen Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Fabricant, Michael Kelly, Chris Pincher, Christopher Walker, Mr Charles Fallon, Michael Kirby, Simon Poulter, Dr Daniel Walker, Mr Robin Farron, Tim Knight, rh Mr Greg Prisk, Mr Mark Wallace, Mr Ben Featherstone, Lynne Kwarteng, Kwasi Pritchard, Mark Walter, Mr Robert Field, Mark Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pugh, John Ward, Mr David Foster, rh Mr Don Lancaster, Mark Raab, Mr Dominic Watkinson, Angela Fox,rhDrLiam Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Randall, rh Mr John Weatherley, Mike Francois, rh Mr Mark Latham, Pauline Reckless, Mark Wheeler, Heather Freeman, George Laws, rh Mr David Rees-Mogg, Jacob Freer, Mike Leadsom, Andrea Reevell, Simon White, Chris Fullbrook, Lorraine Lee, Jessica Reid, Mr Alan Whittaker, Craig Fuller, Richard Lee, Dr Phillip Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Gale, Sir Roger Lefroy, Jeremy Robertson, Mr Laurence Wiggin, Bill Garnier, Mark Leslie, Charlotte Rogerson, Dan Willetts, rh Mr David Gauke, Mr David Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rosindell, Andrew Williams, Mr Mark George, Andrew Lewis, Brandon Rudd, Amber Williams, Roger Gibb, Mr Nick Lewis, Dr Julian Ruffley, Mr David Williams, Stephen Gilbert, Stephen Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Russell, Sir Bob Williamson, Gavin Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lidington, rh Mr David Rutley, David Willott, Jenny Glen, John Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sanders, Mr Adrian Wilson, Mr Rob Goldsmith, Zac Lloyd, Stephen Sandys, Laura Wilson, Sammy Goodwill, Mr Robert Lopresti, Jack Scott, Mr Lee Wollaston, Dr Sarah Gove, rh Michael Lord, Jonathan Selous, Andrew Wright, Jeremy Graham, Richard Loughton, Tim Shapps, rh Grant Wright, Simon Grant, Mrs Helen Luff, Peter Sharma, Alok Yeo, Mr Tim Gray, Mr James Lumley, Karen Shelbrooke, Alec Young, rh Sir George Grayling, rh Chris Main, Mrs Anne Shepherd, Mr Richard Zahawi, Nadhim Green, Damian Maynard, Paul Simpson, Mr Keith Greening, rh Justine McCartney, Jason Skidmore, Chris Tellers for the Noes: Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCartney, Karl Smith, Miss Chloe Mark Hunter and Gummer, Ben McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Henry Mr Shailesh Vara Gyimah, Mr Sam McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Halfon, Robert McPartland, Stephen Question accordingly negatived. Hames, Duncan McVey, Esther Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mensch, Louise Hammond, Stephen Menzies, Mark 7.3 pm Hancock, Matthew Mercer, Patrick The occupant of the Chair left the Chair to report Hancock, Mr Mike Metcalfe, Stephen progress and ask leave to sit again (Standing Order Hands, Greg Miller, Maria No. 9(3)). Harper, Mr Mark Mills, Nigel Harrington, Richard Milton, Anne The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. Harris, Rebecca Moore, rh Michael Progress reported; Committee to sit again tomorrow. 853 18 JANUARY 2012 Business Without Debate 854

Business Without Debate WELSH GRAND COMMITTEE Ordered, DELEGATED LEGISLATION That— Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing (1) the matter of the UK Government’s agricultural policy as it relates to Wales be referred to the Welsh Grand Committee for its Order No. 118(6)), consideration; (2) the Committee shall meet at Westminster on Wednesday EUROPEAN UNION 8 February at 9.30 am and 2.30 pm to consider— That the draft European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Republic (a) questions tabled in accordance with Standing Order No. 103 of Korea Free Trade Agreement) Order 2011, which was laid (Welsh Grand Committee (questions for oral answer)), except before this House on 2 November, be approved.—(Greg Hands.) that questions shall be addressed to, and answered by, Ministers Question agreed to. in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing (b) the matter referred to it under paragraph (1) above; and Order No. 118(6)), (3) the Chair shall interrupt proceedings at the afternoon sitting not later than two hours after their commencement at that ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION sitting.—(Greg Hands.) That the draft Commission for Architecture and the Built Environment (Dissolution) Order 2012, which was laid before Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): On a point of this House on 29 November, be approved.—(Greg Hands.) order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In the past two hours, Question agreed to. Members of Parliament have been denied access to an internet site, www.ipsa.shadow.com, which is supportive of Members of Parliament. The official print-off states, BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (23 JANUARY) “Access is denied to the website you have selected because Ordered, it belongs to a category that is blocked.” Can we have an That at the sitting on Monday 23 January paragraph (2) of investigation into who within the House is blocking Standing Order No. 31 (Questions on amendments) shall apply to Members of Parliament accessing anything, and in the Motions in the name of Edward Miliband as if the day were particular something to do with the Independent an Opposition day.—(Greg Hands.) Parliamentary Standards Authority, especially when it is favourable to Members of Parliament? BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (25 JANUARY) Motion made, Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): There is a That at the sitting on Wednesday 25 January, notwithstanding rarity. Although that is not a point of order for the the provisions of Standing Order No. 20 (Time for taking private Chair, my recollection is that a phone number is usually business), the Private Business set down by the Chairman of given when access to a site is denied. My suggestion to Ways and Means shall be entered upon (whether before, at or the hon. Gentleman would be either to telephone that after 4.00 pm), and may then be proceeded with, though opposed, number, or if no number is given, to phone Parliamentary for three hours, after which the Speaker shall interrupt the business.— Information and Communications Technology. I am (Greg Hands.) sure that PICT will be able to give the reason why Hon. Members: Object. Sir Bob is not being given the answer he wants. 855 18 JANUARY 2012 Tees Valley Spinal Unit 856

Tees Valley Spinal Unit I suffered from back pain for years. Initially, the periods between incidents of pain were long, lasting Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House several months. Then the pain became constant. The do now adjourn.—(Greg Hands.) by-election that I fought in 2007 was not pain-free, but was something that had to be coped with of necessity. 7.6 pm One does learn coping techniques—for instance, exercise and physiotherapy are essential—but the more the pain Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): I want to highlight intensified, the stronger the painkillers became. Heat the work of the spinal unit at the University Hospital of wraps and ice packs were bought in abundance as a North Tees and the charitable support group established short-term remedy. in 1999 by patients who have used the spinal unit for surgery to relieve chronic back pain, allowing some Coping mechanisms included wearing slip-on shoes patients to walk again and many others to get on with because it was too painful to bend over to fasten shoelaces. their lives pain-free. I speak with first-hand knowledge Books, television remote controls and clothes would be of the unit and its support group because of the major left on the backs of chairs or on shelves at a particular spine surgery performed on me in November 2008, after height so it was not necessary to bend or stretch. years of pain. Working in the office meant standing at the filing cabinet, using it as a desk, or walking around the room reading At a time of controversial change to the NHS, I want papers or documents. Sitting for any length of time to put on record my belief that the spinal unit at the could be torture. Standing in the this Chamber attempting University Hospital of North Tees and the volunteer to catch the Speaker’s eye would be a welcome relief for network that supports patients before and after treatment a few seconds, and speaking would be a relief in more is a shining illustration of all that is good about the ways than one. The pain would be in the legs rather NHS, and should be an example of how other acute than the back, because the damaged disc was catching care and chronic pain services should operate elsewhere. the sciatic nerve. Recent advances have made spine surgery safer and more effective and now there are safe and effective My back was continuing to deteriorate. I was referred surgical options to treat back pain. It is no longer to Manoj Krishna, who treated me for about a year accurate to tell patients that nothing can be done and with physiotherapy regimes and epidurals that bathed they just have to live with it. The North Tees spinal unit the base of my spine with anaesthetic. All the treatments specialises in the holistic treatment of spinal pain—from worked for a time, but the underlying problems caused physio to surgery, with surgery being the last option. by discs that were disintegrating meant that I needed surgery. The surgery meant removing the two offending The spinal unit at the University Hospital of North discs and fusing the three vertebrae. Years ago that Tees is in the constituency of my hon. Friend the technique meant recuperating in hospital for many weeks, Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham), who but in November 2008, when I had the operation, I is a good friend of the hospital. It serves the Tees Valley hobbled into the hospital on a Wednesday morning and and South Durham area, including my constituency, walked out on Thursday afternoon, less than 48 hours but its reputation has now reached far and wide, with later. I have not looked back since. Nevertheless, surgery patients travelling from all parts of the country for is not a silver bullet. People must continue to exercise, treatment. The spinal unit was set up in 1997 by consultant and must not take for granted the new lease of life that spinal surgeon Manoj Krishna, who operated on me. the operation has given them. Mr Krishna told me that The unit was originally staffed by two spinal surgeons I had an 80% chance of being 80% better, and I am, I but is now staffed by three dedicated consultant spinal think, more than 80% better. I experience the odd surgeons supported by associate specialists and middle- twinge, but the pain that I had before is gone. grade doctors, nurses, allied health professionals and other support services such as radiology. The unit offers My story is not unique; far from it. The cost to the a number of leading therapeutic, non-surgical and surgical individual, the family and the nation of chronic back procedures. My understanding of the procedures used pain is massive. Back pain is common in the UK. In any is only surpassed by my complete inability to pronounce given year, about 30% of the population suffers from it, many of them, but they include lumbar disc replacement, and 20% of the population—12 million patients—visit neck surgery and other surgery on the spine. their GP with it. Between 3% and 4% of the population The spinal assessment team’s specialist nurses carefully are chronically disabled by back pain, and 52 million examine patients’ medical history to establish the best work days a year are lost because of it. The chance of course of treatment for each case. Patients who require someone’s returning to work after being off work with non-operative treatment are then channelled to the it for two years is less than 5%. Research shows that, for appropriate department and patients requiring surgery the individual, sudden severe and then chronic back are referred for treatment in the spinal surgical unit. pain is debilitating and can result in low mood, loss of The unit’s consultants see about 2,000 new patients a libido, disturbed sleep, poor appetite or weight loss, year, usually from the musculoskeletal service but sometimes fatigue, feeling worthless, problems with concentration, directly from GPs both in and out of the area. Patients and even thoughts of suicide. come from as far as London and the south-west to have Back pain can also threaten the stability of the sufferer’s their surgery at North Tees. Fifteen major spinal operations family, possibly leading to marital and family breakdown. are carried out in the unit each week. The average Because it often strikes during a person’s maximum length of stay in the unit is two and a half days. The earning period, it can threaten the economic survival of unit is a training centre for specialist registrar and the family unit. A person’s back pain and associated spinal fellowship programmes. It is active in research side effects can become very draining for the family, as and development, represented on the national and an inability to remain in one position for any length of international stage. time threatens normal daily activity as well as leisure. 857 Tees Valley Spinal Unit18 JANUARY 2012 Tees Valley Spinal Unit 858

The extent to which the whole family is affected when What will the Government’s proposed reorganisation one of its members has back pain cannot be underestimated. of the NHS do to ensure that patients who need the The economic consequences to the nation are also treatment will get the treatment, especially as spinal apparent. The individuals concerned are often at the surgery techniques are rapidly improving and becoming peak of their earning capacity, and months and years of ever more sophisticated? Finally, will the Minister join not being able to work and to contribute to society add me in congratulating the management and the surgical to their feelings of worthlessness. and nursing staff at the hospital on the work they are doing to ensure chronic back pain is being treated with For those reasons, I want to pay a special tribute not such professionalism? In particular, will he join me in only to the work of the spinal unit at University Hospital congratulating the volunteers who run the support group, of North Tees but, more specifically, to the voluntary and who ensure that the service provided is holistic in its workers of the Tees Valley spinal support group. In approach and helps secure the good will of patients to 1999 Victoria Fenny, a patient waiting for back surgery, help other patients, in order to give them hope and approached Mr Krishna and asked what support there address their fears? All specialties in all hospitals would was for patients with this debilitating condition. She do well to have their own support groups. I know from wanted to talk to someone who had been through the personal experience how important they are. experience, but no support group existed, and as a result the Tees Valley spinal support group was formed. The group, which now attracts at least 100 people to its 7.17 pm quarterly meetings at the hospital’s teaching centre, The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul includes former patients and those awaiting surgery, Burstow): I congratulate the hon. Member for Sedgefield and provides an invaluable source of learning and support (Phil Wilson) on raising this important set of issues. for the hundreds of people who have back and neck The subject is close to my heart as well, as a result of my surgery each year. previous experiences as a Back Bencher raising similar The feedback from the group is used to improve the issues about how we can deal with chronic back pain service further. Health professionals attending the support and ensure that pain is not an afterthought and the group say they learn as much from the patients as they forgotten issue in the NHS, given how much it can teach them about how quickly they can get back to blight the lives of so many people. Before saying a little normal after surgery. North Tees and Hartlepool NHS more about that, I want to do what the hon. Gentleman Foundation Trust supports the work of the charity by asked me to do at the end of his remarks and pay tribute providing a counselling room for patients where they to both the excellent work the NHS staff working in his can meet volunteers and talk about their concerns, and area do, sometimes under trying circumstances, and the rooms at the teaching centre where the quarterly support work Victoria and the other people he mentioned do groups are held. through their contribution as volunteers and supporters of other patients. The Tees Valley spinal support group is a registered The hon. Gentleman vividly described his own charity and it raises funds to support the work of the experiences, and in doing so he has helped to turn a spinal unit. I have visited the support group on a couple spotlight on these important issues. We must keep in of occasions and it is good to speak to people who have mind the excellent care and consideration he received—and suffered from the same symptoms—people who coped has rightly praised so highly—from Mr Krishna and by wearing slip-ons, used the filing cabinet as a desk that team’s other specialists. Their work has made a and left the TV remote on the back of the chair. I would difference to his life, as well as to the lives of many of like to place on record my recognition of the voluntary his constituents and many other people. This is a clear work undertaken by Victoria, and also Linda Botterill, example of the NHS at its best, and I join the hon. Claire Poulton, Peter Evans, Peter Allan and Gordon Gentleman in paying tribute to all concerned. Marron. Often it is a patient asking how they can get involved In 2011 the support group held its first fun-walk to that provides the spark that leads to the sort of voluntary raise funds for educational equipment for the unit. I activity the hon. Gentleman has described. I certainly met former patients who had spent years in wheelchairs have no difficulty in paying tribute to Victoria for but can now walk. I agree with Mr Manoj Krishna asking that question of Mr Krishna, which became the when he says that it is no longer accurate to tell patients spark that has ignited so much good work since. nothing can be done for their back pain and they have to live with it. The skills are there. The support is there I am aware of the hon. Gentleman’s ongoing engagement too. What can the Government do to ensure the excellent with the group since his surgery in 2008. His remarks example of the spinal unit and its support group can be again highlighted the value of patients who have finally replicated around the country so that the millions of found relief after long-term chronic back pain having our citizens who suffer from back pain can receive the the opportunity to talk to others who are still going treatment they need instead of being told they just have through the misery of their condition, as that can to cope with it? reassure people about what can be done. The support group’s work shows the extraordinary value of having Is the Minister aware that Britain has 18 spinal the voluntary sector and volunteers working within our surgeons per 100,000 head of population, whereas the NHS. He asked what we can do to strengthen that Netherlands has 30 and the USA has 76? Back surgery approach and replicate the idea further. The first question rates in the UK are 30 per 100,000 head of population, at last week’s Health questions was about what we can as against 52 in Sweden, 115 in the Netherlands and do better to support volunteering in the NHS. I said 158 in the USA. What more can be done to improve then, and I repeat now, that we are working closely with Britain’s position, because we obviously have the talent, the association of hospital volunteer co-ordinators to skills and expertise to be world leaders in this area? make sure that NHS boards have the information they 859 Tees Valley Spinal Unit18 JANUARY 2012 Tees Valley Spinal Unit 860

[Paul Burstow] tackle health conditions. That is very much part of what we are trying to achieve through some of the reforms to need to make the right decisions about the investments which he referred, so that improving mental health they need to make to support voluntary organisations. outcomes or issues to do with pain, for example, becomes These may be small investments, such as providing a bit not just about the Department of Health or the NHS of time or a room where people can provide the valuable but about what the Government, employers and many emotional and other support that he describes. That other organisations can do together. Occupational health approach is very much at the heart of the vision in our is a key component of that. report on volunteering in the NHS. One way we can see I hope we can agree on some of the elements of the that go further is by ensuring that local NHS organisations vision of what a society that actively promotes health sign up to the compact agreements on the voluntary and well-being looks like. Local communities, councils, sector, so that they are fully engaging with their local the NHS and the voluntary sector, which has extraordinary voluntary and community sector and making full use of power, should work together to begin to make a difference that way forward. to the health and well-being of local people, and everything I understand that the Tees Valley spinal support in the health system should point towards prevention. group holds quarterly meetings and I am told that they We should be able to say that the NHS is as good at are attended by hundreds of people, which, again, preventing poor health as it is at treating it. underscores how important these groups can be. Perhaps Let me say something about the need to ensure the most important is the fact that charity volunteers who integrated package of care mentioned by the hon. have received spinal surgery are available to talk about Gentleman. He listed some numbers and I would like to these issues, as that can be hugely reassuring. There is write to him about the numbers of spinal surgeons and also enormous value in developing this whole area of so on, to give him a bit more detail on our thinking hospital volunteer schemes. As the hon. Gentleman about how we can develop the NHS in respect of rightly said, this support group provides an excellent musculoskeletal conditions. There is a good story to tell example, and I will want to use it to illustrate the and I want to set that out in more detail for him. benefits of such approaches. That is why I am keen to I also want to answer the hon. Gentleman’s important make sure that these volunteering opportunities go question about how reforms will support improvements further. in surgery services. In our view, the Health and Social I wish to reflect a little further on some of the points Care Bill creates a number of the tools that will support that the hon. Gentleman made, and there is broad continuous quality improvement in the service. The agreement about many of them. He rightly highlighted outcomes frameworks published for the NHS on social the huge impact that back pain can have on people’s care and public health provide a greater opportunity for lives, saying that we can do better on treating and clarity and accountability and have been widely welcomed preventing it. This is a serious issue for the NHS, for the across the clinical community. people affected and for the economy and our society as Let me answer the hon. Gentleman’s questions about a whole, and it is not just about the most extreme cases what reform can do. Reform must allow much greater where surgery proves necessary. He rightly says that transparency so that we can see differences and variations surgery is no silver bullet, but when one rehearses the in the service in different parts of the country. The statistics, as he did, one finds that in the number of publication of the health atlas is already driving working days lost to illness, musculoskeletal conditions commissioners to benchmark themselves against the come second only to mental health problems, with a best in the NHS. The use of tariffs will drive best price tag for the economy of £5.3 billion a year. That practice in the services, too, and front-line staff will be occurs through lost work days, poor productivity and, empowered to use the clinical evidence—they know in the most serious cases, people being shut out of work that this is the best practice—to deliver and commission altogether and facing a lifetime of incapacity and difficulty. the best possible services for their populations. In the shadow of the statistics that the hon. Gentleman I thank the hon. Gentleman again for bringing this has rehearsed there are hundreds of thousands, if not matter to the House tonight. He was right to want to millions, of people who have to cope with chronic back praise the work of the spinal support group and the pain for many years. As he has said, some of these valuable contribution it makes to the lives of so many people are not given the opportunities they need to get people in his community. I also praise the professionalism the right support and the right treatment at the right of the NHS staff who treated him and who treat his time, so he was right to talk about the impact on the constituents. I am pleased to have the opportunity to individual and about his personal experience, but there put those remarks on the record and to endorse and is also an impact on families, on relationships, on underscore what he said. mental health and on a person’s well-being. For me, that Question put and agreed to. points to the fact that when we think about health and well-being, we need to think bigger. He talked about 7.27 pm holistic services that have an impact on poor health and House adjourned. 265WH 18 JANUARY 2012 Port of Southampton 266WH

for the briefing I have received from ABP, DP World Westminster Hall and Unite, the union. All have exactly the same position on what needs to be done. Even in the days since Wednesday 18 January 2012 requesting the debate, there has been some progress, but the project is so time-critical that any further slips, delays or mishaps—anyone taking their eye off the [MR JAMES GRAY in the Chair] ball—could do immense damage. Let me set the scene and the history. As I have said, Port of Southampton the port is immensely successful. Productivity is high and Southampton is in the right geographical location Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting for China and other south and east Asian trade, but the be now adjourned.—(Mike Penning.) container business is changing. Some 13 years ago, the typical vessel was 4,000 TEUs—twenty-foot equivalent 9.30 am unit, which is the standard measure. Recently commissioned Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab): I am ships already in service are typically 9,000 to 10,000 TEUs, grateful to Mr Speaker for granting this debate quickly, but in the next two years, ships as large as 16,000 TEUs which, as will become clear, is appropriate. There are will come into service. This is happening right across pressing issues facing the future of the port of Southampton the industry with all the major carriers, and it certainly that have to be resolved literally in the next few months applies to Southampton’s major customers: the CMA if the full future of the port is to be secured. I am CGM organisation and the G6, an alliance of Hapag grateful for the strong and cross-party support here Lloyd, OOCL, NYK, APL, MOL and Hyundai Merchant today from hon. Members from across Hampshire and Marine. They have come together precisely to optimise the Isle of Wight. the deployment of new and larger vessels. May I say briefly that there is another issue about the Southampton can accommodate the larger, super-sized future of the port of Southampton, which relates to container ships if—but only if—it can reconstruct its investment in the cruise terminal and an application by existing container berths, known as 201 and 202, and Liverpool for a cruise terminal? That is not the subject carry out more extensive dredging both nearer the berth of my remarks today. The arguments are well rehearsed, and the wider channel. That is what gives rise to the we believe in fair competition and the Minister is due to £150 million investment at the heart of the debate. make an announcement on this in the fairly near future. Those ships are coming into service now and in the next I want to concentrate on a different issue that is of two years, so the investment is time-critical. The risk is equal importance to the future of Southampton and, in obvious—if there is any further delay and Southampton this case, critical to the future of the container terminal cannot offer its customers the capacity they want, business there. The debate has huge local, but also national, will be lost. significance. Frankly, it presents a rare opportunity in the current economic climate, because a private sector Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): I congratulate the company, Associated British Ports, is offering—indeed, right hon. Gentleman on securing the debate, which is is desperate—to invest £150 million of purely private as important to my constituents as it is to his and to money in infrastructure in the coming year. That investment those of other hon. Members here today. He rightly is not just important for Southampton; it is vital for the says that any further delay could be fatal. Will he infrastructure of UK plc. A study for Marine South confirm that the September 2012 to March 2013 “piling East estimated that the contribution of the port of window”, as it is known, is the critical date window that Southampton to the UK’s economy was £1.75 billion a we are tied to here? Any further delay would result in an year. Southampton is the fourth largest port in the UK, additional 12-month delay in doing the work that is and the container terminal, operated by DP World, needed out in the channel. employs approximately 1,000 people. It is estimated that four jobs in the wider local economy are dependent Mr Denham: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, on each of those jobs in the terminal. and I will explain the reason why that September to Currently, most investment in UK infrastructure depends March period is so critical. For entirely legitimate on public money for pump-priming, partnership and environmental reasons, that activity cannot take place initial investment. However, ABP’s planned investment all year round, so we could miss that deadline. As I will in Southampton is entirely private—it does not depend say in a moment, contracts need to be let ahead of at all on matching investment. That is such good news September if work is going to be started in September—that that one might wonder why we need to have a debate in is critical. If it is not done by next year, the port clearly Westminster Hall. The problem is that over several will be unable to offer the capacity it would like to for years the project has suffered from entirely avoidable the latter part of 2012 and, in particular, 2013. delay—mainly, it has to be said, at the hands of Government This debate should not be necessary. The need for agencies, and partly due to the action of rival port investment was identified in a scoping study submitted operators who have exploited mistakes made by the by ABP to the Marine and Fisheries Agency, the Government machine to mount a legal challenge that is predecessor of today’s Marine Management Organisation, not in the public interest, but is purely to pursue their in 2007—in what most people regard as perfectly good own commercial, competitive advantage. time to get the necessary approvals and to get the work Hon. Members from Hampshire and the Isle of Wight under way. In January 2008, following consultation have come together today to urge the Minister to do with various bodies, the MMO issued a formal scoping everything he can, with his colleagues across Government, opinion that advised ABP of the scope and content of to ensure that there are no further delays. I am grateful the required environmental impact assessment. That 267WH Port of Southampton18 JANUARY 2012 Port of Southampton 268WH

[Mr Denham] bogged down in legal challenges between rival commercial companies, enormous damage will be done to the chances point is crucial, because not for the last time in this of getting infrastructure investment under way and process, ABP was advised and directed to take a particular rebuilding the economy. There has to be a point where course of action, and it complied fully. ABP submitted every major company is prepared to consider what is in its application on 15 December 2008. The applications the UK national interest, not a narrow view of what is were advertised using a form of words directed by the in their own local commercial interest. MMO. In February 2009, issues were raised in consultation by Natural England, the Environment Agency and the Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): May I thank Royal Society for the Protection of Birds and, I understand, my right hon. Friend for the reasonable way he has successfully resolved. However, in December 2009, nearly dealt with the conflict between Southampton and two years after the MMO’s original scoping opinion, Liverpool? He is aware, though, that there are still the MMO then decided that the public notice it had problems between Liverpool city council and the local supplied was incorrectly worded. ABP was asked to authority in Southampton. Liverpool city council has place further public notices, using replacement wording asked for talks with Southampton to see whether common supplied by the MMO. That mistake delayed the process ground can be found. That is a good idea. Does he agree by a full 10 months. It is worth noting that Hutchison that those local authorities should get together and find Ports, the operators of Felixstowe, did not raise any common ground, so that it is not either/or, but possibly objections during the original consultation. However, both? following the re-advertisement and during the second consultation, it then did, arguing that the original Mr Denham: We are perfectly clear that Liverpool is environmental impact assessment, which was drawn up utterly entitled to have a cruise terminal. The question to the MMO’s specification, had not considered operational is whether, given that the one operating successfully in impact issues. Southampton has been developed entirely with private sector finance, the one in Liverpool should not operate Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Will the according to the same principles of fair competition. right hon. Gentleman explain why Network Rail and We are more than happy to have that discussion, but I the Highways Agency were not included in the original do not want to spend my time this morning getting too consultation? far into that issue, because we are in the last critical weeks that will determine whether this investment in Mr Denham: The point about this procedure is twofold. Southampton takes place in the autumn. I want to Throughout this process, ABP took guidance from the focus on that. MMO as to what requirements it needed to fulfil. It was reasonable for ABP to do that. It is because it was not Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): I declare well advised—indeed, it was advised to do other things— an interest. As deputy general secretary of Unite, I that we have ended up in this position. worked with ABP, the local authority and the work In April 2010, following the re-advertisement and the force, who are members of Unite, in seeking to drive intervention from Hutchison, which has no local interest this project forward. The common ground is the need to at all in this matter—it is purely a commercial rival rebalance and grow our economy, although we may issue—and having raised those issues, the chief executive disagree on how to do that. of the MMO wrote to ABP, stating: Does my right hon. Friend agree that infrastructure “Please be assured that the MMO is working pro-actively with is key if we are to grow the economy? This development ABP to resolve these cases swiftly.” is in the national interest and the interests of growing However, it was not until February 2011, more than the economy. Any further delay will damage not only three years after the original application, that the MMO the interests of Southampton but the prospects of economic finally issued consent, in good time to get this work recovery. under way. Mr Denham: My hon. Friend is right. The involvement Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): Obviously, of Felixstowe’s owners in this matter gives a UK angle hon. Members from Merseyside oppose the proposed to the competition, but the blunt truth is that there is no blocking of the cruise terminal at Liverpool. However, reason to believe that the container work lost from on this issue we fully support my right hon. Friend. Southampton will end up anywhere in the UK. If the Does he agree that this scheme demonstrates how out of effect is that ships go to Rotterdam and their cargo is date our planning process is? Is not the economy suffering broken down for trans-shipment, there is a huge loss to because we cannot make quick decisions? I hope the the entire UK economy. That is why a view of what is in Minister will consider speeding the whole process up, so the interests of the whole UK is crucial. We can have that we can get such schemes introduced much more local fights, but we will look pretty ridiculous if we end quickly. up damaging the whole UK economy and sending the business elsewhere. Mr Denham: I want to concentrate on getting this scheme approved. However, when the dust has settled it Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): will be clear that the scope for getting things wrong and I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on obtaining for commercial challenges by people who have no interest this debate. I support the burden of his remarks. The in environmental issues in the Southampton area is so planning system has become obstructive, although it is great that it can lead to huge delays. If our collective understandable that Hutchison Ports, for example, should attempts to get investment in the UK infrastructure are insist that rules that are being made to apply to it and 269WH Port of Southampton18 JANUARY 2012 Port of Southampton 270WH stifling its investment programme should be applied these errors. We know that these things happen deep in evenly throughout the industry. That was the burden of the depths of agencies far away, in normal circumstances, its complaint. from ministerial decisions, but there are times when Does the right hon. Gentleman agree—and support Ministers need to act. the Government on this point—that we need to renegotiate I wrote to the Secretary of State for Environment, the habitats directive, because that is being used, as Food and Rural Affairs about this matter in August and much as anything, to stymie and bog down important again in September. I have to say that, although I am infrastructure projects for bogus, spurious technical sure that the letters that I received were legally correct, and legal reasons, rather than genuine environmental there was no sense of urgency coming from the Department reasons? for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on how the MMO would handle this matter. I was told that, since Mr Denham: I have some sympathy with the hon. June, the MMO had maintained a single point of contact Gentleman’s final point. If the objections were coming with ABP in Southampton and that, in July, it assigned from Natural England, the Environment Agency, the a case team to the application. However, as I have said, RSPB and local environment organisations in that did not prevent further and later requests from the Hampshire—even if they were using the habitats MMO to ABP for additional analysis and information directive—I would understand their legitimacy. What that further delayed the project. people in Southampton cannot understand is that, I wrote to the Prime Minister on 24 November. I essentially, technical and legal mistakes are being exploited hope that I am not unduly pompous as an ex-Minister, to damage investment. but there was a time when former Secretaries of State The hon. Gentleman properly represents his part of and Privy Counsellors who wrote to Prime Ministers the country and his constituents. I hope that he will take would get a reply a from the Prime Minister or a back the message that Hutchinson’s may feel that it has Secretary of State. I am afraid that it took two months made its point, but to continue to pursue this matter for the Prime Minister to get a junior Minister in now would do enormous damage to the UK economy DEFRA to send me back pretty much the same letter and to the port of Southampton. that I had got from the Secretary of State. There is no sense that the Downing street machine has grasped that Mr Jenkin: But the planning rules are the problem. it could play a role in making sure that this happens. Mr Denham: Planning rules may be a problem, but We are now at a critical point. The consultation is they do not always necessarily need to be exploited to under way again—that is important—but the consultation damage an investment. period is six weeks. Objections must then be properly considered, because that is the legal process. The MMO In 2011, three years after the original application, the must therefore consider objectively any issue raised so MMO issued consent. Two months later, Hutchison that, should it give approval, its decision cannot be commenced judicial review proceedings in the High challenged. The potential for delay is significant, and it Court, alleging that the environmental impact assessment is essential for the MMO to have sufficient resources was defective. In June 2011, without discussion with and access to sufficient expertise to give the decision ABP, the MMO, having listened to that objection, proper consideration. That is what I am asking the withdrew its consent. The critical issue is, as I understand Minister to take away today and to take to his colleagues it, that the judicial review application by Hutchison did in DEFRA. We cannot have a situation in which either not raise any issues that had not previously been raised the MMO does not have the resources or expertise to in 2010 and that the MMO had every opportunity to consider the consultation responses properly or mistakes consider. What actually happened is that the MMO had are made, thus laying the process open to further legal the chance to consider those objections and decided not challenge. to act on them, or decided that they did not have a I ask the Minister to consider one other factor. It is substantial basis in fact, and issued the consent, but not for him or the House to constrain the courts, but in then, faced with a High Court challenge, changed its truth the move for judicial review came not from a mind. It is another case where the MMO’s handing of statutory or voluntary environmental organisation, nor the matter has badly let down everybody involved in the from any group that might be affected by the environmental port of Southampton. impact of the port, but from a commercial operator, Since then, there has been further delay. ABP responded and it seems pretty clear that the motives were to inflict to further requests for analysis that it said it would commercial damage on a rival. That raises a massive deliver by 30 September 2011. Just three days before challenge to the Government’s plans to encourage that date, the MMO asked ABP to produce additional infrastructure investment in the UK. information, which caused a further delay. Then—without going through all the twists and turns—there was a Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): Before further lengthy delay before the MMO finally commenced my right hon. Friend concludes, I absolutely support the consultation on 11 January 2012. the aim expressed in his earlier comments that we I have gone over the history not to rake up old issues should work in the greater interest of the whole UK but to stress, for the benefit of the Minister with economy. Will he therefore agree to broker a meeting responsibility for shipping and ports, that the port of between the Southampton and Liverpool authorities, Southampton has been on the receiving end of particularly so that we can put to bed the animosity between the two poor treatment by Government agencies, not just under and move forward on what is in the interest of both this Government, but in the past. As a result, this major Liverpool and the UK, to grow the economy in Merseyside? investment has yet to start. I will not hold the Minister Mr Denham: Our two great port cities have a lot in or his predecessor, who will be contributing from the common, in history and in the future, and I hope that Opposition Front Bench, personally responsible for Southampton and Liverpool will work together in the 271WH Port of Southampton18 JANUARY 2012 Port of Southampton 272WH

[Mr Denham] Tourism is also crucial to the success of the whole region. Hampshire and the Isle of Wight have such a future. The Minister’s decision on the issue is imminent, fabulous coastline that it draws huge numbers of people and we will all want to consider it carefully. We are very every year. The proposed redevelopment of Mayflower consistent in Southampton: we are not saying that park would play a key role in improving the attraction Liverpool should not have a cruise terminal; we are for tourism. The importance of tourism is reflected by merely saying that competition should be fair and on Southampton being the leading destination in the UK the same basis of cruise terminal capacity development. for cruise ships, and that business is critical to the local We are not out to say, “You have no right to have cruise and indeed the wider economy. As the home of famous ships. You have no right to have this industry,” but the British shipping companies such as P&O, Cunard and competition must be fair, so if meetings will improve Carnival, Southampton is also part of the heritage of understanding, they would be helpful. our seafaring nation. The financial argument for the development proceeding, The vast majority of ports in this country are privately however, is the most important one. With our country operated, but they all depend on either the actions of in the doldrums economically for the moment, Government agencies or, sometimes, public investment. infrastructure improvements such as the Southampton The Government’s infrastructure plan, for example, one have gained increasing importance. What makes it included proposals to improve roads that would help, even more surprising that the plan has not moved among other things, to support the port of Felixstowe. forward is that no public money is involved in the We will get into a terrible position, however, if urgent expansion. The Government have been keen on such investment in the UK economy routinely becomes the infrastructure developments, and we only have to cite matter of legal challenge by different commercial companies High Speed 2 to see that, the difference being that one picking up technicalities and details of arguments rather will cost public money and Southampton port will cost than pursuing the UK national interest. I do not expect nothing. the Minister to say much or, probably, if he is prudent, anything at all on that point—I am sure that he will be What of the island? More than 2,000 people commute measured—but Ministers need to have that serious from Cowes to Southampton every day of the week, so discussion with major companies in this country, to it is perfectly clear that jobs in Southampton lead to ensure that the interests of UK plc always come first, more jobs for islanders. In that respect, as I said at the particularly in such difficult times. start, I am fully behind the proposals, and I find it incredible that the process has taken so long to date. Once completed, the development will provide employment 9.54 am to countless families, improve the regional economy, reaffirm Southampton as a world-class port with facilities Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Many for the largest ships on the ocean and take the port and islanders from my constituency take great pride in being city of Southampton further into this century with the physically separate from the mainland UK, but most capacity that they need. I ask the Government to do recognise the value of its proximity. An acknowledgement everything that they can to ensure that the process is of that fact is that so many of my constituents, especially expedited with the appropriate permissions as soon as in the north of the island, rely on the mainland for work possible. The delay has been too long. and it explains why I am taking an interest in the debate.

I offer my support to the right hon. Member for 9.58 am Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) to get the Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): It is Southampton port project moving. As already explained, appropriate that we are discussing Southampton port the aggressive legal action by another port authority this morning, one day before the House discusses the has slowed the port expansion proposal to a halt, instead national ports infrastructure planning document. That requiring a further review of environmental issues, and document looks, among other things, at the whole that is simply not acceptable. How can a project that question of the strategic role of ports in the UK and at requires no public funding, while providing growth, the requirements for ensuring that our ports continue to education in the form of apprenticeships, and employment, play such a strategic role in the best way that we can be held up? That is exactly the sort of behaviour that arrange. That is vital. the Government abhor, yet it is happening. UK ports provide 95% of our capacity for importing The sustainable growth of the port of Southampton and exporting goods; 95% of imports and exports go is incredibly important for the city of Southampton and through UK ports. So the best possible deployment of its hinterland, and the Isle of Wight falls within that UK ports is essential. Historically, Southampton, with remit. Indeed, the success of Southampton is due in no Felixstowe and many other UK ports, has always played small part to the fact that the island is where it is, a major role in providing that national infrastructure, protecting the Solent. The island also provides a 360° which, as hon. Members have said, is being maintained catchment area, whereas most ports normally have a and improved predominantly on the basis of investment 180° area because of the very fact of being on the coast. by the companies that run the ports. Also, on the island, we rely heavily on the connection to Southampton and Felixstowe are particularly important Southampton, which I am told is the third largest port in terms of national strategic planning inasmuch as in the country, while East Cowes is the seventh busiest they are two of the country’s leading container ports port in the UK. Given the proximity of one port to the with a large throughput of containers. They are either other, with the ferry link provided by Red Funnel, East side of London, in close proximity to major international Cowes’success is very much reliant on that of Southampton. shipping routes, and are vitally placed for receipt of 273WH Port of Southampton18 JANUARY 2012 Port of Southampton 274WH containers, which then go to the rest of the UK. Indeed, further judicial review and challenge of its inherited the Government have recognised the importance of powers from the Board of Trade in terms of permissions. those strategic ports in terms of what has happened Southampton made its proposals not just in good time, with assistance not to the ports, but to the infrastructure but in very good time. However, it is faced with the in the recent upgrade of the rail line from Southampton prospect that, if matters do not now go absolutely to the midlands, and the proposed upgrade in road right—among other things, the salmon run up the access to Felixstowe port. River Test is an issue—it will lose its very last window The Government have recognised the infrastructure to put that vital upgrade in place to cope with future considerations for the same reason that ports recognise business at the port. what they need to do to maintain their competitiveness, Why has that judicial review come forward, and why not with one another, but as part of the national ports has the Marine Management Organisation, apparently infrastructure. The Southampton rail upgrade is a good petrified about the possibility of further judicial review, example. The international standard now is high-box reviewed its powers accordingly? Is it because local containers with a height of 9 feet. They cannot be amenity groups in Southampton are up in arms? Is it transported efficiently on traditional rail-based container because the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds is transport, not least because they tend to collide with worried about the effect on birds? Is it because English bridges. To upgrade to international standards and to Heritage is worried about the effect on the Solent? Is it maintain competitiveness, it is necessary to prevent because Natural England is worried about the natural containers from colliding with bridges on the way north, environment around Southampton? No. None of those which is an upgrade to stay in the same place. organisations has ever objected to the proposal, and It is interesting to reflect on a debate that I obtained none has ever tried to stop it. All agree that the arrangements 11 or 12 years ago on the future of Southampton port. I are satisfactory. Indeed, I understand that no one in the speculated about the level of container traffic that would Southampton area has ever objected to the proposal. be required in future for UK ports, and the size of Nor should they, because the proposal is to upgrade an container vessels that would come to the port. I talked existing container terminal to bring it up to date with then about the prospect of vessels of perhaps 8,000 to what is required for the port. That is all. 10,000 containers coming into the port, and the necessity of considering how we would deal with larger vessels It is astonishing to hear that an organisation from its coming in. Now, Southampton’s main customers are vantage point 200 miles away has introduced judicial talking about shortly bringing in not 8,000-container review of the upgrade’s details into the proceedings. It vessels, not 4,000-container vessels, which my right hon. might be said that that organisation wants a level playing Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) field. That appears to be more of a cover than an mentioned and which was the standard a few years ago, up-front argument, and it does not require an enormous but 13,000-container vessels. If our ports in general amount of brainpower to consider what might happen cannot take those vessels, that will be detrimental to if the port of Southampton were made to go backwards Britain’s national strategic port planning, not just to rather than forwards. That is what happens with port Southampton or any other specific port. management; ports either lose trade or they gain it. As my right hon. Friend said, the issue is not just that UK trade can be obtained for everyone; it is not a container-vessel traffic is distributed around the UK; zero-sum gain. It is not, however, difficult to conclude ports across the channel are able and waiting to take that Hutchison Ports believes that delaying or scuppering traffic that comes up through the channel to container Southampton’s plans to upgrade its facilities, thereby ports. If those vessels turn right because they cannot making it unable to accept larger ships, would directly turn left to the UK because of their size, containers will benefit Felixstowe. A judicial review is a fairly small be trans-shipped from the continent to the UK at a cost investment—perhaps £100,000—for what is potentially of £100 per container over and above what happens at a large gain. I caution, however, that such a move does present when they arrive in the UK. Yes, we would not necessarily mean that more traffic will go to Felixstowe. receive our containers, and yes, business might proceed It may not end up in the UK at all, and even if some of as usual, but at a considerable cost to the UK economy it did, in terms of UK plc it is equivalent to one car and considerable detriment to our strategic port planning. manufacturer seeking to sabotage another’s production It is essential that ports such as Southampton address line in the hope that the public will buy its cars, even if the issues, and Southampton has done precisely that in some members of the public then buy imported cars. its proposed £150 million investment in its container That is the sort of action we are contemplating, and if terminal, not a new container terminal, but an upgraded that is the motivation behind the judicial review, I one. Ships already come into the port, and the £150 million deplore the fact that it has been requested. is for dredging and upgrading the facilities to ensure I have reflected on the importance of the port of that new, larger vessels can come into Southampton Southampton to UK plc, and feel that any attempt to and be dealt with. obtain such a review should be resisted. We need the As my right hon. Friend said, not only has Southampton ports of Southampton, Felixstowe, Liverpool, Hull, addressed the issue, but it thought that it had introduced Portishead, Thamesport and others because, as we will its proposals in good time a few years ago. It is a sad discuss tomorrow, they will play a vital role in planning record that the Marine Management Organisation has the UK’s future port capacity. The development of the been less than fully adequate in dealing with the challenge port of Southampton is not only about Southampton of that proposal. It had to re-issue the consultation; it but about UK plc making its way and dealing with apparently retreated in the face of judicial review when imports and exports from and to the world. If Southampton permission had been given; and more recently it has fails to get its upgrade as a result of backstairs dealing cast around to see whether it has the power to resist and, quite frankly, poor service by the body that is 275WH Port of Southampton18 JANUARY 2012 Port of Southampton 276WH

[Dr Alan Whitehead] mishaps and deliberate obstructions. I wish only to underline the immense frustration that it has taken required to decide on such applications, that will be of more than four years to reach this unsatisfactory juncture. detriment not only to Southampton but to the UK as a After more than four years of mistakes by the relevant whole. authorities and meddling by a commercial rival, Associated British Ports still does not have permission to develop Dr Thérèse Coffey: The hon. Gentleman makes the capacity at the port. It is right to look to the future, but case proudly for Southampton port, as did his right we must be mindful of past delays that must seem hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen utterly baffling to most people. ABP’s commitment to (Mr Denham). It is a bit of a shame, however, to start developing the port of Southampton should be a shining impugning commercial decisions. We as parliamentarians example of private investment fuelling economic growth, want companies to be treated consistently by Government trade and jobs. agencies, and in the example we are discussing consistency The port of Southampton is one of the region’s was not applied. The MMO has ended up paying the economic powerhouses, and as the MP for Gosport, costs of the judicial review because it failed to apply the which is just down the road, I know how vital it is for law as it should have done. my constituents not only because of the employment that it provides, but because one job at the port generates Dr Whitehead: There is some force in what hon. Lady four or five further jobs. The proposed development of says. It is a shame, however, that we have to think about capacity for container ships should by now have cemented the possible motivations behind those who apply for a the port’s position in European-Asian trade, secured judicial review. From my vantage point, the conclusion jobs and bolstered the economic might of the UK. It is that the prime motivation behind this judicial review vital to stress that all those things can be achieved by did not involve a concern for level playing fields is private investment of well over £100 million, and there almost inescapable. Level playing fields should exist for is no need for Government support. everybody, but someone feeling that they were not If the MMO fails to act decisively, or if commercial applied in their particular circumstances does not warrant rival Hutchison Ports again seeks legal obstructions, an attempt to upset the playing fields for everybody in there is a real possibility that the international success the country. I hope that we will hear no more about the of Southampton port will be undermined and up to judicial review, and that mature consideration of what 2,000 jobs put at risk. I have spoken in the Chamber is best for all, including the ports of Felixstowe, previously about the pockets of deprivation that are Southampton and the others that I mentioned, will found on the south coast, and we cannot afford to put prevail. those jobs at risk. I hope that this debate, and the efforts made by many of my colleagues from across the south to assist As the hon. Member for Southampton, Test Southampton’s progress with its application, will mean (Dr Whitehead) pointed out, a new generation of container that at this final stage, the MMO ensures that the ships is on the horizon. If Southampton is not allowed process proceeds as quickly as possible, and that those to act within the coming months, those ships might well involved with UK ports consider what is best for all our pass it by. I therefore wish to reiterate calls for the ports, rather than individual interests. If that is a result MMO to act with speed and precision at the end of of today’s debate, which I congratulate my right hon. the consultation and for Minsters to ensure that it has Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen on obtaining, the resources and expertise to do so. The Government it will have been a prize worth fighting for. are committed to securing growth and jobs through private investment and we must not—I hate to use this Several hon. Members rose— pun—miss the boat in Southampton.

Mr James Gray (in the Chair): Order. I intend to call the first Front-Bench speaker at 10.40 am. According to 10.19 am my amateur arithmetic, that leaves about five minutes Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) per speaker. Perhaps as a courtesy to one another, hon. (Con): I congratulate my neighbour, the right hon. Members will try and curtail their remarks as much as Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham), on possible. securing this important debate, and on his determination to make this a cross-party initiative to highlight the 10.15 am issues currently faced by the port of Southampton. As we have heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): I congratulate Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) and the hon. Member for the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead), the port is a significant (Mr Denham) on securing this debate at such a critical driver of economic prosperity in the wider region and juncture. The strong attendance by MPs from across the country and provides employment both directly and political parties and the south of England is testimony indirectly. The port of Southampton is the main access to the urgency with which we must address the future of and departure point in the UK for a wide variety of Southampton port. It is an issue of great consequence, products. To give one example from my constituency, not only to Southampton, but to the economic future of Ford makes the much-loved Transit vans at Swaythling, the region and the success of UK plc. 50% of which leave the country via Southampton port. I do not intend to repeat the difficulties that have In addition, given that Southampton is the fourth largest plagued attempts by the port of Southampton to develop port for the import of cars, it is no surprise that many of container capacity since 2007—the right hon. Gentleman the Fords that we see on the roads today have accessed has already eloquently outlined the tortuous tale of the country via that city. 277WH Port of Southampton18 JANUARY 2012 Port of Southampton 278WH

I welcome the “National Policy Statement for Ports”, prosperity and, importantly, private investment in a which has a clear focus on integrated transport networks. vital facility. I will not dwell on private investment and We have heard about the importance of altering the rail the questions about the Liverpool cruise terminal, but it network, so that larger containers can get through the is worth mentioning that in the dealings with the MMO tunnel underneath Southampton. The rail lines have and waiting for permission to be granted, as with the been lowered and the height of the tunnel raised. However, Liverpool cruise terminal, all that Southampton is asking that £60 million investment might not reach its full for is a level playing field—I could not work out whether potential if those containers cannot access the port of there was an analogy involving water, but I do not think Southampton and end up being transported from the so. continent. Work is ongoing in my constituency to ensure This is a very difficult week for the cruise industry, that the diversionary line is also improved—to raise the and our thoughts should be with the victims of the road bridges—so that the port can achieve its aim of dreadful accident off the coast of Italy. It is important getting 40% of the freight from the port travelling by that we get behind that industry. We sincerely hope that rail, which is a far more environmentally sustainable it recovers, because it is very important to the port of route. Southampton. Above all else, we urge the Minister to The investment might not achieve its maximum potential, ensure that, at a time when the cruise industry needs however, if the port of Southampton is not allowed to some help and support, we have some clear answers on develop and thrive in a very competitive climate. It is the question whether public money should be used to the second busiest deep-water port in the UK and subsidise the industry. cannot afford to stand still if it is to retain that position, yet as we have heard time and again, it has been forced to tread water because of the inefficiency of the Marine 10.24 am Management Organisation, what I regard as unacceptable objections from rival commercial operators and a delayed Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): This is the process that has seen the likely timetable pushed back first time I have had the pleasure of participating in a and back. Westminster Hall debate under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I congratulate you on that, just as I congratulate I will not rehearse all the reasons behind the delay, the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen but, as the Member for Romsey and Southampton (Mr Denham) on securing this important debate. North, I should like to focus on something that is of particular interest and concern in my constituency. I am So far, we have seen an interesting division of labour. also a member of the Select Committee on Environmental The right hon. Gentleman concentrated in great detail, Audit. People might therefore expect me to be conscious as he had to do, on the process of the application. My of the potential environmental impact of the port’s hon. Friends the Members for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) proposal to deepen berths and introduce a new piled and for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) concentrated to a quay. Concerns have been raised, including about the considerable extent on the importance of the port of migratory salmon that pass through Southampton water. Southampton to the wider region. The hon. Member However, the environmental impact assessments have for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) and my hon. been done and redone. They have been enhanced and Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North more information provided. Despite that, there has (Caroline Nokes) emphasised the magnitude of the task been stunningly little progress, and there is a very of accommodating container ships that can carry as limited time window for the piling of the new quay. many as 13,000 units and of transporting those units, Given the potential impact on migratory salmon, that when offloaded, to the hinterland within our country. can be done only between mid-September and March, My role, therefore, towards the end of the debate is to so a scheme first mooted back in 2008 has missed that try to show why this issue—or, not to overstate the case, window time and again. If it does not get the go-ahead this dispute—is different from other disputes that have very soon, the next window, between September 2012 taken place in the past and particularly the dispute over and March 2013, will also be missed. the plans that Associated British Ports had for many I do not dismiss the importance of the salmon—far years, and has not entirely abandoned, to build a huge from it. Two of the pre-eminent chalk rivers in the container port at Dibden bay in my constituency, on the country—indeed, the world—run through my constituency opposite side of Southampton Water to the existing at various points. There is, I concede, a very small container terminal. Hon. Members from that part of stretch of the River Itchen, but much of the River Test the country will be well aware that there was a six-year runs the length of my constituency.One of my constituents campaign to resist the Dibden bay port development, proudly boasts of having caught a salmon on the Test culminating in a year-long planning inquiry, which finally every year for the past 50 years. Those salmon are few decided to recommend—the Government of the day, to and far between, and I am most anxious that their their credit, accepted this—that that development should migration should not be disturbed, but there is no not go ahead. reason why the development should be held up by them. There is a complete difference between the situation It is notable that the environmental objections have in which we were fighting against the Dibden bay come not from the fishermen on the River Test, but development, and the obstructiveness that has confronted from a rival port operator. ABP over the current development, which entirely conforms As I said, I will not rehearse all the reasons for the to what we said at the time. That is that the container delay. The right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen terminal in Southampton, run by ABP, had the potential took us through a comprehensive timetable. Suffice it to to be expanded, to have its capacity increased and to say that the hold-up is putting expansion plans at risk grow as the size and volume of container traffic continues and, in so doing, threatening local jobs, regional economic to grow. 279WH Port of Southampton18 JANUARY 2012 Port of Southampton 280WH

[Dr Julian Lewis] what happened to Southampton before it was privately owned with what is happening to Liverpool when it is At the time of the earlier dispute, ranged against privately owned. It was a nice try, however, and I give ABP were not just the MP for New Forest East, which is the hon. Gentleman full credit for it. entirely to be expected, given an MP’s responsibility to In the spirit of consensus we have in the debate, I his constituents, but all sorts of national, environmentally must acknowledge—I think ABP acknowledges this as concerned bodies: Natural England or whatever it was well—that Hutchison Ports has had a bad deal. More called at the time, the Royal Society for the Protection than one local Member has ably made the point that of Birds—you name it; they were against it. Where is Hutchison Ports feels that it was treated unfairly in that cacophony of objection to the development of comparison with other ports, so it has been making a berths 101 and 102? Is it being suggested that great point of saying that if it does not get fair treatment, it harm will be done to the natural environment or the will put a spanner in the works so that other people do habitat? As my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey not get fair treatment either. I had some friendly and and Southampton North emphasised, the main concern helpful interactions with Hutchison Ports at the time of is about migratory salmon. That is not to do with the the Dibden bay dispute, and I say to the company that it development having a destructive effect: it is simply a has made its point effectively, but it would be carrying question of timing the development so that the salmon things too far to try to make it again. can migrate in the normal way, and the piling and the Time is of the essence, not only in this debate but in preparation of the quay wall can go ahead. terms of the need to make a decision. I conclude by There is nothing like the same level, quality, type or saying that if the debate has focused Ministers’ attention— scale of objection on environmental grounds to what is and, through Ministers, the attention of the Marine proposed. On the contrary, the port is doing what the Management Organisation—on the need to conclude port, with the greatest respect—I say that to the right this over-long process as soon as possible, it will have hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen—should have achieved its objective. done at the time when the extremely destructive proposal to build at Dibden bay was originally made. The port Dr Coffey rose— proposes to take its existing footprint, to modernise it, to do a modest dredge and to enable the larger generation Mr James Gray (in the Chair): Order. Before I call the of ships to dock there safely and securely. That is hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), whom I precisely the way in which an important port should be know represents the port of Felixstowe, I remind her able to increase its capacity—without doing any harm that the debate is about the future of the port of whatever to the natural environment and without causing Southampton, to which she must confine her remarks. much concern, if any, to the people who live in the area. The difference is, therefore, fuelled not by environmental objections but by commercial ones. ABP could similarly 10.34 am be accused of applying double standards regarding its Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): It is a commercial objections to cruises being allowed to start pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I and end at the cruise terminal in Liverpool. However, intend to refer to many of the comments that have been there is no real comparison, because the objections made about the actions of Hutchison Ports, rather than from the city of Southampton and ABP to the proposals to proselytise about the benefits of Felixstowe, which for Liverpool—to their credit, Liverpool MPs have are already well known in the House. been present in force today to defend the interests of Associated British Ports is an investor in the Suffolk their city—have been based on the fact not that there ports of Ipswich and Lowestoft, as well as in Southampton. would be competition between Liverpool and Southampton I want to reinforce the point that my hon. Friend the for the cruise liner trade, but that Liverpool received Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) £20 million of public money to develop a cruise terminal made about consistency and a level playing field. I as a port of call, not a port at which cruises should start commend the right hon. Member for Southampton, and end. That money was given specifically on the Itchen (Mr Denham) on his advocacy of the port of condition that the cruise terminal would be restricted to Southampton. As I mentioned in my intervention, that purpose, and within a year of the cruise terminal’s companies that we represent are entitled to expect that being finished, the request was being made to tear up Government agencies act within the law, and when they the condition without repaying all the money. I will not do not, it is reasonable to challenge them. The MMO dwell on that, because we know that the argument is suffers from the sins of its predecessor, but that happens about to be settled one way or another, although we do with Governments, agencies and companies, which have not know which way. to deal with the hand they are given. The MMO fell down initially in accepting the decision and subsequently Mr Watts: Was there not a great deal of public admitted that it had acted unlawfully, so the order was investment in Southampton before denationalisation? granted. The port has enjoyed a lot of public investment over The hon. Member for Southampton, Test many years, so is it not a bit ironic that Members are (Dr Whitehead) pointed out some of the challenges of complaining about public investment when Southampton onshore distribution using the rail and road networks, has had so much? which have received a lot of investment, as my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North Dr Lewis: That is a neat argument, but it would have (Caroline Nokes) alluded to. The right hon. Member a little more force if the port of Liverpool were not for Southampton, Itchen was not able to answer for the owned privately by Peel Ports. One should not compare fact that ABP did not consult organisations such as 281WH Port of Southampton18 JANUARY 2012 Port of Southampton 282WH

Network Rail, the Department for Transport rail I have no objection to Southampton being able to department or the Highways Agency when considering accommodate the largest boats, just as Felixstowe can the land-side environmental impact assessment of its now, but it is critical to encourage the MMO to act application. I am sympathetic to ABP’s point that it swiftly and properly. At the end of the day, it is about relied on the advice of the Marine and Fisheries Agency ensuring that our civil service agencies can tackle things, at the time, and hindsight is a great teacher. I am and as was said earlier there is the question of making surprised that ABP relied on a fisheries agency to sure that there are resources. It is about focusing on provide full planning advice and did not use its own what matters for the UK economy. If the agency had advice to ensure that it had covered every aspect of the pulled its finger out and made sure that ABP had done planning application, because it is experienced in doing its assessment properly in the first place, we might not such things. be in this mess. I would encourage the agency to devote My hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Caroline its resources to the issue in question, rather than devoting Dinenage) mentioned meddling by a commercial rival. any further resources to marine conservation zones; Let me provide a parallel example of what might happen that would have an impact on ports around the country, if the law on regulation was not applied consistently. If including Southampton and Felixstowe. It should make the Football League brought in transfer conditions that sure it is business-friendly, pull its finger out and ensure Southampton football club had to apply, but Portsmouth that the law is applied consistently. was allowed not to follow the regulations, I can imagine the rows between Southampton and Portsmouth supporters. Members of Parliament would be equally frustrated 10.40 am about the lack of even-handedness. Although I appreciate Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): It is a that the emotions involved in football do not stretch to pleasure to see you in the Chair this morning, Mr Gray. the technicalities of a planning application, the same I am delighted to be here for the debate, and congratulate issues are involved. Commercially, we want a consistent my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, response from Government agencies. Itchen (Mr Denham) on securing it, ably supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test Caroline Dinenage: I am in favour of any positive (Dr Whitehead) and colleagues on the other side of the discrimination that involves Portsmouth football club. House. Both my right hon. Friend and my hon. Friend We are talking about the economic benefit to the whole are former distinguished Ministers—indeed my right of the UK. Leaving aside any commercial rivalries or hon. Friend was a Secretary of State—and they both geographical disputes, we have to look at jobs, economic have considerable experience in the matters under debate. prosperity and income, which are important for the The speeches of the hon. Members for Isle of Wight future of UK plc. (Mr Turner), for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage), for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) and for Dr Coffey: I understand that perspective entirely, and New Forest East (Dr Lewis) supported the case being I will address it briefly. put to the Minister, and the only dissenting voice—and My hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East even then, only slightly dissenting—was that of the (Dr Lewis) has been inconsistent in his argument. He hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), who was very generous to Hutchison, especially regarding its used a football analogy to outline her slight difficulty. advice on Dibden bay, which I remember well because I As a West Ham supporter, in a debate on Southampton, lived in Hampshire at the time. Again, the argument is I was not sure how I would get into the debate the fact about consistency, and ABP and Hutchison are united that those teams are joint top of the championship, but in saying that nobody objects to Liverpool’s having a the hon. Lady has provided me with the opportunity. cruise terminal, but it should be on equal terms. Both The role of a shadow Minister is sometimes puzzling, port operators share that position. I do not, therefore, especially for someone who has been a Minister—not accept that we are talking about different things, although making the decisions and not having the intensity of the joy of being a politician is that our greatest competence programme or the diary pressures that the Minister has to be dealing with paradox. experiences. As Her Majesty’s Opposition, our job is to challenge, which does not, of course, always mean Mr Denham: I realise that time is short, but the point opposing, especially when some of the things that the about the legal challenge is that no one is suggesting Government will eventually decide to do were left to that Hutchison has suffered massive commercial damage them by us. I know that the Minister will refer to that because the MMO got its procedures wrong. If the port fact in due course. I think that he was ably assisted by of Felixstowe faced closure because of bungling by the my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, MMO, I would understand the hon. Lady’s point. However, Itchen, who put me somewhat in the frame for this she is justifying doing enormous commercial damage to situation. In debates such as this, the local knowledge of the port of Southampton and the United Kingdom my right hon. Friend and other colleagues is so because something has been found not to have been comprehensive that there is little for me to add. I will done properly, and the action is totally out of proportion therefore be brief, and I am sure that the Minister to any damage that Felixstowe has suffered. That is will use the time to respond to specific points that have really the objection of Members from Hampshire on been raised in this important debate. both sides of the Chamber. I am sure that we will all agree on one point: shipping and the ports industry are great assets to our country, Dr Coffey: I understand that perspective entirely. I doing sterling work efficiently, well and almost invisibly. am not suggesting that I would encourage Hutchison to It is only when there is a tragedy, such as the one this continue to apply for judicial review after judicial review. week in Italy, that shipping ever makes the national 283WH Port of Southampton18 JANUARY 2012 Port of Southampton 284WH

[Jim Fitzpatrick] Our thoughts and prayers are with the families who have lost loved ones or been injured over the weekend. I headlines. However, we know how important shipping asked Sir Alan Massey, the chief executive of the Maritime is to the UK economy in all its aspects, and many hon. and Coastguard Agency, to contact his counterparts in Members have made the case for that view this morning. Italy and offer any assistance that they would need with I should be grateful if the Minister reassured us the rescue, investigation or contamination. Perhaps they about the general working of the MMO overall, about may need some skimmers from us. I have also written to issues of implementation, and, in passing, about the my counterpart in Italy with similar remarks. On that impact on other ports besides Southampton—especially point, I shall be on a cruise liner as soon as I can—not London. However, we are here to deal with specific crossing the Atlantic, like the shadow Minister, but to questions raised by right hon. and hon. Members during stand steadfastly by the cruise industry and show that the debate. My right hon. Friend the Member for the disaster, although significant, should not reflect on Southampton, Itchen raised with us serious questions the industry as a whole. I expect that nearly 2 million about the procedures adopted by the MMO—the errors, British people will go on a cruise by 2014-15, and I hope failures and delays, compounded by legal challenges that that figure will be exceeded. I wish every success to from commercial competitors. My hon. Friend the Member all ports involved in the cruise industry. for St Helens North (Mr Watts) raised the broader Interesting comments have been made about the link question of the planning process for major developments, between the position of Southampton and that of and in passing I would say that it was a mistake by the Liverpool. I am the decision-making Minister and will Government that the coalition decided to abolish the be considering the matter carefully and making a decision Infrastructure Planning Commission, which was specifically soon. If Liverpool had offered to pay back all the grant, designed to deal with the problems of unnecessary as the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim delays to national infrastructure projects. Fitzpatrick) said, we would not be discussing anything My right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, here today. The decision would have been made by the Itchen outlined in some detail why time is so critical in previous Administration, and that would have been the present instance, and what he said was reinforced by enough. Liverpool has not made the offer that the hon. hon. Members across the Chamber. Time will tell whether Gentleman described, but it has made an offer, which I it will be possible for private sector finance to be invested, am considering. However, even if I make a decision, as many hon. Members discussed. We have heard that there is an issue to do with the funding that came from the issue is about ABP versus Hutchison and Southampton Europe, and state aid clearance will be required by the versus Felixtowe; we have also heard that it is about European Commission. However, I will look at the Southampton versus Liverpool. My right hon. Friend matter. I want a level playing field and growth in the said that Southampton wants a level playing field on cruise liner industry. I want Liverpool to be a success. I the cruise terminal question, and the Opposition support have been to Liverpool—twice now—and have worked that view. I know from my hon. Friends that Liverpool with the city council and with Peel Ports. One of the is offering to pay back grant that it received. We welcome most exciting things that Peel has done is to start to use that. That issue is secondary to today’s debate, but none the capacity of the Manchester ship canal in a way that the less it is with the Minister and perhaps he will tell us has not happened for nearly 100 years. There is a when and how it will be resolved. desperate need for that, and I congratulate Peel. As an aside, I will mention that, like many other The port that I have visited more than any other in colleagues, I have used the port of Southampton on the 18 months when I have had the honour and privilege several occasions. Most recently I was on the Cunard to be the shipping and ports Minister is Southampton. liner the Queen Mary 2, coming back from New York, There are many reasons for that, but not the least of and I will be sailing with Fred Olson from Southampton those is its significance within the ports industry. That to Liverpool and Belfast on a Titanic mini-cruise in cannot be looked at in isolation. The issue has to do April. with a commitment of £150 million of private funding As has been mentioned, the conclusion of the important for increased capacity of 201 and 202 berths. Anyone ports policy statement debate will be tomorrow, in the who has heard me speak as shipping Minister in the Chamber. The Minister is held in high regard by the past 18 months will have heard me go on and on about shipping industry and he knows that the Government the importance of ports to an island nation. Frankly, need to get behind British shipping rather than in its successive Governments have not taken ports seriously way, and to try to remove obstacles placed in its way by enough. With the dramatic change that the right hon. others. I know that he wants to be helpful, so I look Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) alluded forward to his response, in the hope that he will offer to in the size of bulk ships, which we could not have clear reassurance to hon. Members and to the port of envisaged a few years ago, we need to make sure that Southampton, about bringing the issue of timing and our nation is not left behind, and that we have the the MMO to a speedy conclusion. necessary capacity in the UK. The investment by Hutchison at Felixtowe, which as hon. Members can imagine I 10.45 am have also visited, was significant in that context. I pay tribute also to DP World for sticking with it and going The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport ahead with a £1.5 billion investment—36,000 jobs—in (Mike Penning): I am honoured to be serving under London Gateway. That will create competition for your chairmanship this morning, Mr Gray. It has been Felixstowe, which is good because competition within an interesting debate, but perhaps I may seek your the ports industry is important. As I have said many indulgence, as this is the first opportunity that I have times before, it is about not just those very big ports, but had to address the House following the disaster in Italy. the provision of myriad services through the ports. 285WH Port of Southampton18 JANUARY 2012 Port of Southampton 286WH

What is proposed in Southampton is not the largest deal with the officials who made that “cock-up”? This is deepwater port. Some of the bigger ships that are now what I find all the time. When one Government leaves being built will not be able to get in there. We are talking office, the other one blames them. On this occasion, the about a 16-metre depth when a 17-metre-plus at Gateway problem is down to civil servants and individuals. Are is under discussion and Felixstowe already has 17 metres. they still working? Has action been taken to ensure that None the less, what this will do is allow the capacity to they do not make the same mistakes again? be spread around the country. Anyone listening to me will probably think that I am not supportive of Mike Penning: I do not know how Hansard is going Southampton having this port facility; well, categorically, to get the word “cock-up” in, but there it is again. I am. I want others to have it as well. Planning permission The MMO is a quango with almost no ministerial for deepwater ports already exists in Tees, Bristol and control whatever. Many of the civil servants in the Liverpool. They will not be the largest ports, but they previous incarnation did not transfer to the new organisation will take deepwater capacity ships—certainly to the size because it was reincarnated in Newcastle. Much of the of 13,000 or 14,000 20-foot equivalent units. personal knowledge about this particular case was not As we look at this matter, we must ensure that the transferred. Once we have got through this—I must environment is protected. My hon. Friend the Member ensure that I do not interfere with any judicial process—we for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), who is no will be looking very closely at the matter. Remember longer in his seat, referred to the habitats directive. That this is a Department for Environment, Food and Rural directive has become a real issue; it was designed to do Affairs and Department for Transport issue. Do not get one thing and has become a hindrance in other areas. A me wrong, the Minister would never have seen this; it review is currently under way, which will report in would never have got to him. This was below the radar March. It will try to address the balance between protecting level. None the less, it is quite simple to say, “You the environment and allowing this country to grow and looked at these ports and you asked for this, this and businesses, especially ports, to carry out their work. this. When you came to this port, you didn’t ask for Members will hear the frustration in my voice when I something that you have asked for at nearly every other say that much has been said about the MMO. The port that I have looked at.” We will address this matter. shadow Minister will not like what I am going to say, I want to look at how the MMO works. As the but the MMO was a creation of the previous Government. Minister standing before the Chamber, listening to It did not come into force until April 2010. All the colleagues and going on visits, it is enormously frustrating earlier action was carried out by the Marine and Fisheries having very little control over things such as the harbour Agency. Let me say—I will not beat about the bush revision order. Even if the whole local community and here—there was a big cock-up, which is why the judicial the MP is against that order, all I can do is advise the review said that maladministration had taken place and MMO; I cannot actually instruct it. that the agency had not done what it should have done. Can I criticise Southampton for looking at what was Mr Denham: I am sure that there are many bigger given to it as a requirement and saying, “The legal body issues to do with the MMO that need to be dealt with; is telling us to do this, this and this”, and then doing it? the Minister is right. None the less, in five weeks’ time, I have always been involved in small businesses, and the consultation will end. The MMO has to deal properly issues relating to the highways and to rail would have with that consultation so that it is free of legal challenge, been addressed within their own business plans. If they but it must do it in an extremely timely manner. One of had been asked to do something, I am sure that it would the reasons for having the debate with this Minister and have happened. There is no doubt about that. In this this Department is that it is this Department that case though, that did not apply. One of the things that understands how important the issue is. I am not convinced Hutchison is concerned about is that it was certainly that DEFRA Ministers do, and I am not sure that the asked to do such things when it was expanding the port MMO does. What we are asking the Minister today is at Felixstowe which I visited at the start of my tenure as for him and his Secretary of State to say to DEFRA, Minister. One of the delays to do with Gateway’s decision “In five weeks’ time, if you don’t have the right people was with DP World. It was asked to do significant in place with the right expertise, you will not be able to things relating to rail and road infrastructure. Negotiations, handle this in a satisfactory and timely manner.” particularly over junction 30, went on right up to the last minute. Something that Hutchison has raised with Mike Penning: I thank the right hon. Gentleman and me is whether the subsidies are there or not. he has probably taken the first point that I was going to As we go forward, we can look at what the problems make. I can do three things today. First, I can speak to have been over the past few months. As I have said my counterparts in DEFRA and tell them how seriously before with a degree of frustration in my voice, I do not we consider this matter. If the MMO does not have the have control over the MMO. I have control over the expertise, capacity and confidence to make a watertight national ports policy, which we will debate tomorrow. decision, we will offer it the officials to help it to do Members will hear me talk about the renaissance in that. It is independent of the Department for Transport, coastal shipping and in ports, both small and large. I but I am sure that we can provide secondments if we can take so much freight off our roads. So many road need to. miles can be taken away if we utilised our ports. The second thing we can do, which was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal Mr Watts: I understand the political banter and why (Dr Coffey), is to say to Hutchison, “You have made the Minister has talked about things happening on the your point.” There is no benefit in delaying this matter previous Government’s watch and not his own. I think with a further challenge. As long as Associated British that that is a valid point. What action has been taken to Ports does what it is asked to do with regards to the 287WH Port of Southampton 18 JANUARY 2012 288WH

[Mike Penning] Tennis MMO and it supports the MMO decision, then that should be it. I cannot make it do that, but I am a 11 am constructive friend. I am sure that there are people who Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): I am will be listening carefully to what the Minister has said delighted to be here and to see the Sports Minister, who about this delay. I am a friend of all the ports. I want will respond. I am pleased to have secured the debate competition, but this is not looking particularly good and to welcome my hon. Friends—we are all friends any more with regard to Hutchison. I fully understand when it comes to tennis. I am secretary of the all-party its position. The law was not adhered to and group on tennis, or as it is more commonly known, the maladministration took place, which is why the judicial Lords and Commons tennis club. The most enjoyable review was minded to go down such an avenue. For lots part of holding that position is getting to play. of reasons, not least those relating to UK plc, jobs, infrastructure and the people of the Southampton area, Tennis is a sport open to all. It is played by children, we need to move on. Capacity ports need to be available. as soon as they can hold the racket, through to the older When outside investment considers UK plc, they may generation to maintain agility, balance, flexibility and say, “We would like to invest there”. However, their strength. It can be enjoyed by two people competing for Google alert or some other agency may then say, “Hold victory or by groups and families for leisure. It is up a second, if you try to get consent down there, these flexible and fun. Unfortunately, despite all those positive are the sorts of problems you will get.” attributes, the country suffers from low participation. Sport England’s Active People survey shows that tennis I want Bristol to go ahead with its decisions. I want participation has fallen to 402,000 regular players—way Liverpool, separate from the cruise business, to be able short of the 550,000 target for September 2011. Shockingly, to go ahead with the deepwater port. I want Tees to go the number of tennis courts has declined in the past ahead as well. The Tyne is another one that should go 10 years from 33,000 to only 10,000. ahead despite the issues relating to contamination. I was there only the other day. If all those ports go ahead, Research shows that the public are keen to play more it will create the capacity that we need to get freight off tennis. According to a ComRes survey carried out on the roads. As our economy grows, and it will grow, we behalf of Tennis for Free in September 2011, nearly half need to ensure that we can be in the marketplace. We the people surveyed would be more likely to play tennis need to be a hub for these huge containers. Let us not if facilities were free to use. It also found that 69% of underestimate the sheer size of the task that we are people think that local facilities should be free and a talking about. I stood at Felixstowe on the deck of one massive 84% believe that they need to be more accessible. of the larger Maersk ships and looked down on the The serious lack of interest in the grass-roots level is a cranes that were trying to load her. Those cranes have missed opportunity. Getting more Britons inspired by now been replaced by even larger ones, which the Secretary and involved in sports was a pledge that helped London of State must have seen when she was there the other to secure the 2012 Olympic games, but that cannot day. happen unless we invest in small organisations that promote grass-roots sports. We need to be in-step with a market that is world led. We have been world leaders in this field for years and Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): I years. We stepped back when previous Governments congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate. Is did not take ports and shipping seriously. I do take she aware that Leamington Spa is home to the first lawn them seriously and I hope that this plan goes ahead for tennis club, established in 1872, which was three years Southampton. before Wimbledon? In the Olympic year, could we not make an effort to ensure that we improve young people’s understanding of the history of tennis, so that the legacy is not concentrated only in London?

Meg Munn: As an MP representing a constituency even further away from London than the hon. Gentleman’s, I am obviously keen for the legacy of the games to be felt throughout the country.I have spent time in Leamington Spa, but I was unaware of its history, so I am delighted to have been educated. Let us get kids out playing and then teach them the history, but I welcome his intervention. In 1997, when the Labour Government came to power, school sports were poorly funded and communities relied on badly funded local authority provision and voluntary clubs. The Labour Government set out to create a proper structure to encourage greater participation, which included the Youth Sport Trust, for schools and youth clubs; Sport England, for community support through national governing bodies; and UK Sport, for elite sport throughout England. In December 2008, Sport England announced a £480 million investment to provide grass-roots sporting opportunities and a lasting Olympic legacy of 1 million 289WH Tennis18 JANUARY 2012 Tennis 290WH people playing more sport. It awarded sports funding has been well used by the community. It was done in based on their expected ability to increase the number partnership with the council and is a fantastic example of people playing sport and to ensure that young, of an investment that will make a difference to the lives talented players could be identified and supported to of young people in North Tyneside. develop their skills. Through the four-year whole sport plan, tennis received Meg Munn: I welcome that; such work is important, a block grant of nearly £27 million for 2009-13—the but it still has not achieved the participation that it fourth largest grant given to any sport—from Sport should. The barriers to more people playing tennis must England. That money is channelled through the sport’s be addressed. national governing body, the Lawn Tennis Association. It was originally built on a club structure, but there has been a shift to include more local authority-run parks Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the and school sites. Almost 200 park sites, which offer hon. Lady on securing the debate. Sport is a devolved affordable tennis, are accredited as beacons and the matter in Northern Ireland, and although we are talking LTA also invested £200,000 in revenue funding last year about England, I want to add to the debate an example to support free and affordable activities. Sport England of what has been done there. The Ulster branch of targets tennis funding at three areas, for which it uses Tennis Ireland’s initiative over a weekend last summer the terms: grow, sustain and excel. For those of us who introduced 508 people to tennis with the support of do not like such short descriptions, they mean increasing councils, tennis clubs and private enterprise—Asda’s the number of people playing tennis, sustaining their sporting chance programme sponsored it. That is an number through measuring existing participants’satisfaction example of how, with promotion and encouragement, and helping young, talented players to progress and we can get more people involved and other people to excel. help.

Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): At Glenburn Meg Munn: It is good to hear about that, because we sports college in Skelmersdale, the LTA has invested in must address the barriers to more people playing tennis. developing high-quality tennis courts. It is a new town I am sceptical that the LTA can achieve the surge in that has existed for only 50 years, so it does not have the participation that we are all talking about and all want. great history that the hon. Member for Warwick and In my experience, lasting involvement is often achieved Leamington (Chris White) mentioned and had no tennis by local people coming together and deciding to do provision in a town of 40,000 people. Does my hon. something, by people getting involved for not just two Friend agree that it is important to ensure that the weeks, during Wimbledon or when something is first opportunity to get involved in tennis should be widely there, and doing something that continues and enables accessible, especially in communities such as Skelmersdale people to take up a sport, which, as I said earlier, they that did not have a tennis court? You never know, we can keep on playing well into their 60s, 70s and even may discover stars. 80s. For instance, a group of parents might want to do something for their children, or a group of women Meg Munn: I am delighted to predict that a future might want to get together and get active, while having Wimbledon champion will no doubt come from my fun. What prevents people from seeing tennis as the way hon. Friend’s constituency. She makes the point extremely to do that is the lack of courts and equipment, and well—that is exactly what needs to happen. probably most difficult to overcome is the sense that The LTA has undertaken significant work in the past tennis is a sport for better-off people, with too many 18 months to accelerate growth in participation in park children and adults seeing it as elitist and not for them. tennis sites, schools and through its “allplay” campaign, An organisation that has set out to change things is launched in summer 2011 to help more people play Tennis for Free, which starts from a simple point of tennis. The campaign includes a free website to help view. If children want to play football, they get their people to find someone to play against, a local place to ball, find a patch of grass, put down a couple of play tennis, of which there are about 20,000, and coaching jumpers and start playing. It costs them nothing. Charging to help people to improve. For future projects, the LTA to use tennis courts has helped the decline in participation, has invested or committed £19.9 million in total to by making tennis too expensive for many people to play, 159 projects or facilities since 2008. Over £11 million of and councils need someone collect the money. The that comes from Sport England’s whole sport plan result across the country has been poor-quality tennis funding, with the LTA funding the remainder directly. courts that become underused and fall into disrepair. That will result in 32 new indoor courts, 109 new outdoor courts, nearly 300 resurfaced or reconstructed Tennis for Free works with schools, tennis clubs and courts and 294 courts floodlit across England. The LTA local authorities. It uses public park court facilities to investment rightly reaches beyond traditional clubs— create tennis communities. It provides free equipment £7.9 million has gone into community facilities, such as and a free two-year coaching programme, run by qualified parks and education sites, and no doubt that includes coaches and available to young people and adults of all my hon. Friend’s constituency. ages, standards and abilities.

Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): I am sure Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): I declare an that my hon. Friend will join me in commending the interest as vice-chairman of the all-party group on LTA for investing in one of the most deprived wards in tennis. I am, however, a very poor player, unlike the my constituency with a fantastic indoor tennis court at hon. Lady, whose skills are renowned throughout the Churchill community college—a very visible site that Palace of Westminster. 291WH Tennis18 JANUARY 2012 Tennis 292WH

The Minister for Sport and the Olympics (Hugh A vision for developing grass-roots tennis has been Robertson): And Wimbledon. set out in the charter for tennis. It includes enabling wider participation, so resources spent on tennis must be focused on grass-roots development. Sport England Mark Pritchard: Indeed. I should like to put on funding from 2013 should be channelled to organisations record my thanks to Mr Speaker for his active support dedicated to grass-roots development and allocated on of tennis and of Tennis for Free in particular. Given the the principles of transparency, accountability and value huge amount of money going into tennis generally, for money. By concentrating on grass-roots tennis and from the Exchequer and the lottery, does the hon. Lady getting more people playing, we increase the number of accept that a future Wimbledon champion—junior or people who find it an enjoyable and worthwhile activity senior, male or female—is as likely to come from the in its own right. Will the Minister therefore consider Tennis for Free courts as from private courts or those guaranteeing that a proportion of tennis’s future funding where an entry fee is charged? goes directly to grass-roots organisations such as Tennis for Free, rather than being channelled through only the Meg Munn: As the hon. Gentleman is probably aware, national governing body? my view is that talent is certainly likely to be spread equally across the whole population. However, it is not 11.16 am just about getting the person who is going to do well and represent the country, but about getting everyone The Minister for Sport and the Olympics (Hugh else involved, too. Robertson): I congratulate the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) on securing this debate, and I With Tennis for Free, we are seeing a way of opening thank Members for their many contributions during tennis to even more people, by providing free equipment her speech. The hon. Lady is absolutely right: tennis is a and a free two-year coaching programme and, at the game enjoyed by many millions of people in this country. end of the two years, a friends community group is Absolutely central to our plans for the Olympics, and created to provide a free coaching programme with the beyond, is to get people to focus on tennis for not just same inclusive and welcoming ethos. Such community- two weeks at the end of June and the beginning of July. based techniques have been shown to work. Tennis for We want to ensure that tennis is played by as many Free’s approach offers value for money and is, importantly, people as possible, for as much of the year as possible, sustainable. It has had more than 16,000 attendees at its and I was very encouraged to see in a recent survey that coaching events over the past year and is now embarking tennis was highlighted as a sport that many more people on a programme of renewing and renovating courts. It wanted to play. Interestingly enough, although everyone has also targeted low-income groups, thus ensuring that concentrates on those at school and in their early 20s, the schemes are promoted to families in areas of high tennis was seen in the survey as an incredibly popular deprivation, to spread greater provision to where there sport among those who want to play it later in life; so have traditionally been no tennis courts. My hon. Friend although people are rightly enthusiastic about getting the Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) described more young people playing, it is also important to the importance of that. remember that fact. A vital part of Tennis for Free’s activity is persuading I thought I would first quickly give the hon. Lady a local councils to make access to tennis courts free of bit of background, talk about the opportunity, which charge. That improves value for money, because the she rightly highlighted, offered through the new sport maintenance budget is helped by the fact that well-used strategy, and then address the issues she raised about courts are less likely to become overgrown and vandalised. Tennis for Free. She is absolutely right that by 2013, There are now more than 2,600 free park courts in the Sport England will have invested more than £26 million UK, up from just 700 in 2005—a real achievement for a of public money in the Lawn Tennis Association, much small organisation. The approach matches public need. of which is driven by lottery receipts. The hon. Lady The ComRes survey found that a third of people would mentioned that when she talked about increased investment be more likely to play tennis if courts were open for in sport. Sport now gets 20% of the lottery take, up longer, were in better condition and offered free coaching. from 13.7%, and lottery receipts are rising, so more The great thing about the approach is that it is relatively lottery money is available for sport than ever before. cheap to set up; provided that it is done in partnership, The hon. Lady made her points very fairly and did a two-year coaching programme costs about £15,000. not line the LTA up directly in the shooting gallery; nor Tennis for Free’s success shows us that there is potential should she—the contributions of many other Members in grass-roots activity. have shown what the organisation has achieved. It is Investment in tennis is crucial. The coalition Government important for a Government, and indeed for Sport have announced a new youth sport strategy, to invest England, to have just one point of contact in any sport. £1 billion of lottery and Exchequer funding in partnership When I took over the role of shadow Minister for with Sport England to ensure that more young people Sport, someone told me that golf has 19 representative regularly play sport and will continue to do so into bodies in this country. It is important to have one body adult life. The funding is dependent on a performance in overall charge, and clearly that should be the sport’s management regime, whereby national governing bodies national governing body. Whatever the rights and wrongs must demonstrate local impact to avoid the funds being of this argument, the LTA has, as Members have pointed withdrawn. So far, public funding for tennis has not out, worked hard to bring more tennis into schools produced the growth in participation that could have through the AEGON partnership and the new allplay been achieved, but this is our opportunity to get it right, scheme it has just launched, and wheelchair tennis is and the 2013-2017 plans for each national governing one of the fastest-growing disabled sports in the country. body are being developed over the next few months. The LTA deserves enormous credit for all that. 293WH Tennis18 JANUARY 2012 Tennis 294WH

The hon. Lady mentioned the youth sport strategy. The strategy was announced a week ago. Instead of She is absolutely right—there is nothing party political continuing with the old strategy and its flatlining figures, about it—that lottery funding has injected a considerable we will encourage sport governing bodies to concentrate amount of cash into sport for the best part of 15 years, much more effectively and in a more focused way on the which has transformed funding for both Olympic and 14 to 25 age group, in the hope that if we can get people community sports. To be honest, it is deeply shaming out of school and into community clubs playing much that over those 15 years, the number of people playing more sport, there is a much better chance, because sport sport—the problem is not confined to tennis—has flatlined has been established as part of their daily lives, that they or gone down. There are a number of reasons for that. will keep playing later. We will not demand that all First, the target of 1 million was, to say it in the nicest sports focus exclusively on that age group, but we possible way, what a target of 1 million sounds like: definitely want a renewed focus on it. plucked off the wall as a nice round number. It was not As part of that, voluntary groups and sports clubs gained by burrowing deep into sports, finding out what will have the chance to access a £50 million pot to help they could deliver and coming to a target. ensure that the widest range of sporting opportunities The second problem is that the measurement is now are available to that age group. That is exactly the sort generally regarded as faulty. Active People uses the of pot that such schemes ought to pitch into. Alongside measurement of three separate sessions of half an that sits the 2012 legacy scheme Places People Play, hour’s exercise a week, a direct lift from the old health which will provide £135 million in funding, the majority model. The perfectly sensible idea was to streamline all of which will be targeted at small facility improvement this, but it is extremely difficult for most people to through grants of less than £50,000. It strikes me that a manage three separate sessions of half an hour’s sport. great many tennis facilities would benefit from precisely The problem was brought home to me by England that sort of funding. Hockey, which produced the example of a young hockey I am glad to say that the scheme has proved far more player, playing in the top levels of the southern leagues, popular than we ever thought. The first round was who trained on a Tuesday night and played league dramatically oversubscribed. The funding extends right hockey on a Saturday, but who failed the Sport England across the piece, from fixing boilers and doing up changing measure because they were not doing three separate rooms to repairing holes in roofs. Those are the sorts of sessions of sport. thing for which small clubs find it difficult to raise That problem was compounded by the fact that the money, but they are essential to increasing the number survey is collected solely through fixed telephone lines. of people playing sport. Sport England will do a series As hon. Members will know, hardly any young person of subsequent rounds of the programme. I encourage in this country operates on a fixed telephone line any everyone here to get their local tennis facilities to apply more; everybody uses mobile communications, social for the fund. There are two streams. One, at the top, is media and the rest. As the Minister, I have suffered the Iconic Facilities. If Members have a big sports club in ridiculous situation of calling in sport governing bodies their constituency to which a lot needs doing—many of such as the LTA to explain why their figures are falling them will have tennis facilities—it can apply for funding. and being told, “Actually, our figures show that the The other stream is Inspired Facilities: a sub-£50,000 number of people playing is rising, but the survey is not pot to cover exactly this issue. picking them up.” In my 18 months as Minister, I have On Tennis for Free, I must be a bit careful. It is found that the single most frustrating thing. Using a absolutely my job as Minister to set the overall strategy survey that measures more accurately what is happening and then hold sport governing bodies, in particular, to is key. account for how they spend their money. Over the past The third issue involves how sport governing bodies—the year, participation figures for a number of sport governing LTA is not exempt from this criticism—went into the bodies—I will not name and shame them publicly—have whole sport plan process. It was a good idea of James tailed off. In some instances, we have removed funding Purnell, as Secretary of State, to empower governing from bodies that have failed. The new youth sport bodies to drive up participation, but some saw it as a strategy will give payment by results. If we find that means to drive the commercial model. They would get some sports are doing well, they will get more money. more people interested in a sport, and then those people Those sports that just continue in the same old way and would pay money to watch the pros play. That is different do not increase numbers will have their funding taken from influencing consumer behaviour and driving the away. societal change we need if we are to get more people to However, it would be going further than a Minister playing sport. should to delve into a sport and instruct the sport governing body exactly how to allocate its funds. I hold Meg Munn: I appreciate what the Minister says about governing bodies to account for what they are doing the difficulty of counting how many people are playing, across the piece, but I do not tell them to fund individual but one thing we can count is the number of courts. organisations. There is also a secondary point. The part From my constituency and others, we know that some of the whole sport plan into which I suspect Tennis for areas have no courts and that many courts are in Free will fall is lottery funding, not Exchequer funding, disrepair. That is important and must be addressed. so it is illegal under additionality rules for me to tell the LTA how to spend its funds. That said, I am keen for the LTA to work much more closely with Tennis for Free, Hugh Robertson: The hon. Lady is absolutely correct, which is an interesting and innovative scheme. I hope, as she has been in much of what she has said. Having as does the hon. Lady, that it will succeed. Clearly, it given her a bit of background, I will move to the youth must prove that it can, but I suspect it will have an sport strategy. important part to play in the mix for achieving her aims. 295WH Tennis 18 JANUARY 2012 296WH

[Hugh Robertson] Northern Rail Hub The most constructive thing that I can do as a result of this debate is to give the hon. Lady an undertaking [MR JIM HOOD in the Chair] that I will write personally to the chief executive of the LTA asking him to meet Tennis for Free to bottom out 2.30 pm exactly what can be done and what issues remain, and Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): It is a pleasure to write back to me. I will then copy that reply to her, so to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. As one of we can be sure that something will come of this debate. the vice-chairmen of the all-party group on rail in the north, I am delighted to have secured this debate on an Meg Munn: Can I press the Minister slightly? I accept issue that is well and truly at the top of our agenda. It is entirely what he said about his overall strategic role, but great to see present so many colleagues from the all-party can he also give direction to governing bodies across the group and from the north of the country who are piece on ensuring work and partnership with grass-roots passionate about rail investment in their constituencies organisations? and across the north. Hugh Robertson: Absolutely. That is part of the whole My Colne Valley constituency has two rail lines running sport plan process. My instinct is that that principle is through it. The Leeds to Manchester trans-Pennine probably there already. The whole sport plan, as it route has stations in Lockwood, Slaithwaite and Marsden, works at the moment, has not changed at all since the while the Huddersfield, Penistone and Sheffield line has last Government were in office. A better way of answering stations in Honley, where I live, and Brockholes. Frequent, that might simply be to say that sport governing bodies reliable, clean and affordable rail services are needed in have a fair degree of autonomy to drive up participation my constituency and across the north as a clear alternative in any way they see fit, as long as they get more people to the clogged motorways of the M1 and M62. playing. What exactly is the northern hub? The aim of the Clearly, it is a new idea. If we are investing public project is to allow the towns and cities of the north to money, either through the lottery fund or the Exchequer, work better together and drive growth by increasing we need to ensure that it gives value for money and capacity and reducing journey times on the rail network works. I encourage Tennis for Free and the LTA to work in the north. There is a bottleneck on the rail network in together more closely. I will broker that meeting and the north—largely in Manchester—and a lack of investment monitor what happens. in transport infrastructure will act as a restraint to economic growth across the north. The northern hub is Finally, such relationships are important. In some a £560 million project of targeted infrastructure investment sports, they work well; in others, they work less well, to help the north continue to thrive that includes a and tennis might be one of them. The important thing series of proposed rail network improvements across is that both sides take an open and constructive approach. the north that will stimulate economic growth. I leave the hon. Lady with this thought. It does not help if organisations trying to get funding from sport governing Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): Does the bodies are permanently hammering them in the press. hon. Gentleman agree that it is important that all parts That produces a siege mentality that I suggest might be of the northern hub project are properly funded? If part of the problem. only one aspect is funded, that will cause difficulties in the rest of the area. 11.29 am Sitting suspended. Jason McCartney: The hon. Lady makes an excellent point. When I sum up, I will re-emphasise that we will only get the total benefit from all the economic benefits if the whole hub project is fully funded. I hope that that will be one of the main conclusions from this 90-minute debate. The improvements and economic benefits of the project will go as far as Newcastle in the north, Sheffield in the south, Hull in the east, and Chester and Liverpool in the west. It really will benefit the whole of the north. The northern hub will be a catalyst to drive economic growth in the north. Network Rail has calculated that between 20,000 and 30,000 new jobs will be created, that there will be an extra 700 trains a day and that it could be worth up to £4 billion to the northern economy. Network Rail submitted the northern hub proposals to the Government last September, as part of the initial industry plan, and we expect a final decision this summer. Where are we up to with the project? To give some history, the northern hub report was launched by Network Rail in early 2010. It evolved from a Northern Way report about what was needed to drive economic growth in the north. It defined a set of outputs and the hub was designed to meet them. 297WH Northern Rail Hub18 JANUARY 2012 Northern Rail Hub 298WH

Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): I commend my with local representatives through the passenger transport hon. Friend on securing this important debate. He is executives. Network Rail is in regular discussions with right about the economic growth that the project will representatives from the Department for Transport, provide and the job creation that we need, especially in Metro, Transport for Greater Manchester and Northern the north. Is it not true that the project will also help Rail. They will all work together to establish which bridge the north-south divide that has grown over the pattern best suits residents in the area, mindful of past 10 years? infrastructure capability, commercial demand and improved connectivity. That is why we need the northern hub Jason McCartney: My hon. Friend makes a fantastic investment—this really is an important part of it—to point, which was also made after the statement on High provide more tracks and more overtaking opportunities. Speed 2. As well as investing in HS2, it is important that I am sure that hon. Members would like to know who we invest in local rail infrastructure, which is exactly supports the hub. Network Rail welcomes recognition what the northern hub can do. by my right hon. Friend the Minister, who has responsibility In March 2011, the Chancellor announced that £85 for rail, that the hub has a case and that the Government million of Government funding was available for developing have funded both the Ordsall chord and the electrification the Ordsall chord, which is a new link between Manchester of the trans-Pennine route. The northern hub is supported Victoria and Manchester Piccadilly stations that will by a wide range of stakeholders, local authorities and provide a new route enabling passengers to get across passenger transport executives, such as Metro in West the city. Importantly, there will be no need to change Yorkshire and Transport for Greater Manchester. Business trains in Manchester. Network Rail is working to gain in the north supports it, and it enjoys cross-party, necessary planning consents to build the new link. pan-northern political support, as the number of Members Last autumn, the Chancellor announced funding for present clearly demonstrates. electrification on the north trans-Pennine route between The Transport Committee endorsed the hub in a Manchester and York via Leeds. That was not originally report on transport and the economy in March 2011. I part of the hub plans, but it brings huge benefits, such welcome that support. We must remember that the as increased reliability and more room on trains. It is project has the potential to create 20,000 to 30,000 extra better for the environment and helps reduce the cost of jobs for the north, which will help the Government running the railway. In fact, yesterday evening, our reduce the welfare bill. We would all support that. all-party group received a briefing on electrification in the north-west, during which we heard all about the Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): benefits. Electrification of the trans-Pennine route between Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Transport Leeds and Manchester will allow six fast trains an hour Committee’s recent report on high-speed rail makes between Leeds and Manchester—there are just four at specific reference to the northern hub? It is supported present—and journey times could be reduced by up to by the cross-party Select Committee. 10 minutes. However, the plan has implications, which I will address in a moment. Jason McCartney: I thank the hon. Lady for mentioning Some aspects of the northern rail hub project still that issue, which we were talking about at the all-party have to be funded. As has been mentioned, we will only group meeting last night. She brings much expertise and get all the hub’s economic benefits if all of it is funded. knowledge on the Select Committee area. I am sure that Two new platforms are needed at Manchester Piccadilly the matter that she raises will be examined and explored to allow more trains to run through rather than terminate during the debate. in Manchester. That would provide more direct train I note that many other issues surround rail travel, not services across the north. Moreover and crucially, new just in the north but across the rest of the country. I tracks are needed on the lines between Leeds and Liverpool hope that concerns such as connectivity with HS2, rail and between Sheffield and Manchester, to allow fast fares, cross-boundary fares and the non-collection of trains between the major towns and cities of the north fares—the conductor’s ticket machine keeps breaking to overtake slower trains. down on some of my train services, so halfway through This is a live issue in my Colne Valley constituency, the service, he stops issuing tickets—capacity, Northern and many of my constituents have legitimate worries Rail carriage demands and many more matters will be about it. In fact, I received an e-mail in the past hour the subject of future debates. However, this debate is on from SMART—Slaithwaite and Marsden Action on the northern hub. Rail Transport—which is, as am I, very concerned about the effect that the proposals for faster services Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): On the hon. will have on local stopping services. Fast trains are Gentleman’s point about not being able to collect fares, great, but they must not exist at the expense of local does he have the same problem on his services as I have stopping services. We have to ensure that there is an on mine, where the conductor cannot collect the fares integrated transport system in the northern corridor, because he cannot make his way through the people on not just the fast services between Leeds and Manchester. board who are packed in like sardines? I will keep a very close eye on that and campaign fully to keep all the localised stopping services, because it is Jason McCartney: Yes. The chairman of the all-party important that major funding projects keep an integrated group on rail in the north makes a fantastic point. I was local transport system. travelling on the train from Honley, where I live, to Contrary to reports, no decision has been made on Stocksmoor on a Saturday afternoon and lots of people which is the optimum pattern for Marsden, Slaithwaite were heading towards Sheffield to do their shopping at and Lockwood on my patch. The decision will be made Meadowhall. Halfway through the journey, the batteries through the franchising process and involve consultation in the conductor’s machine ran out because he was 299WH Northern Rail Hub18 JANUARY 2012 Northern Rail Hub 300WH

[Jason McCartney] about the cost ratio changing if we only fund it piecemeal? Surely, if we fund the hub individually in sections, it issuing so many tickets. Apparently, that happens all the would result in the costs increasing and the benefit ratio time and the machine cannot produce tickets then. At a reducing. time when we want to get investment in the railways and recover the costs, I find that absolutely ridiculous. There Jason McCartney: The hon. Gentleman represents are many issues like that. I hope that we can continue to Stalybridge, which is just over the Pennines. Obviously, explore the matter with the all-party group; that would I have been through his constituency when travelling on be excellent. train services through the tunnels to the other side. He makes a very good point. Certainly, the benefit-cost ratio diminishes rapidly if the project is not fully funded. Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con) rose— I hope that we are getting that point across. I have asked the Minister two specific questions. My Jason McCartney: As I said, many other issues surround third question is: does she agree that, following the HS2 rail travel but this debate is primarily about the northern announcement, the northern hub is even more important hub, which I know my hon. Friend will mention. to the delivery of wider economic benefits and to ensuring that an integrated transport infrastructure can spread Martin Vickers: My hon. Friend is making a splendid across the north of England? Those are the three specific case, as always, and is speaking up for his constituents. requests that I should like responses to. Does he agree that it is fine to increase capacity, but that As I start to wind up to allow colleagues to have their we must make the process of allowing new operators to say, I must mention HS2. One of the repeated claims access the service much easier and quicker? made against the HS2 announcement last week is that it will come at the expense of more localised services and Jason McCartney: My hon. Friend makes an excellent that we should spend the cash on improving existing point. In our part of West Yorkshire, Grand Central services. Well, the northern hub project clearly shows has increased its range of services and is stopping in that both can go hand in hand: huge investment in the Mirfield just outside Huddersfield. Direct rail services, existing network and the added capacity and speed of particularly to London and the south, are an important HS2. In summary, the northern hub comes in at £560 part of breaking down the north-south divide, and I million. There are £4 billion-worth of benefits and certainly welcome those developments. potentially 20,000 to 30,000 new jobs that would drive I thank the Minister for being here today. I should the northern economy forward, all for the same cost as like to note a few things that I welcome in her speech to the refurbishment of King’s Cross station. the Northern Rail conference in Leeds in October last Several hon. Members rose— year. In that speech, she recognised the role that the railway has to play in bringing prosperity to the north, Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): Order. I inform right with which all of us in this Chamber would agree. I also hon. and hon. Members that I have eight Members on welcome her acknowledgement that the Chancellor has my speakers’ list, plus the two Front Benchers, so I prioritised investment in rail by announcing in the encourage a bit of brevity while making clear arguments. spending review £18 billion of funding for rail. I agree I intend to call the first Front Bencher at 3.40 pm. with her comments that rail can deliver not only growth, but a more balanced sustainable economic growth and 2.46 pm that it can help to tackle the prosperity gap between the Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): I north and south. Crucially, the Minister stated that the congratulate the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason Government recognised the benefits that the remainder McCartney) on securing the debate. It is apt that I of the northern hub programme could offer and confirmed should follow his contribution because my constituency that they would be looking “very seriously” at the whole follows on from his, and the line he referred to goes on proposal in the run up to this July’s high-level output into my constituency. The only time I will willingly specification 2 statement. Again, I welcome that. share a platform with the hon. Gentleman is the day I should like to put the Minister on the spot, however, when we get improved capacity on the Penistone line. I and ask her three specific questions. First, will she look forward to that day very much indeed. commit to ensuring that the northern hub project is For the north of England, the northern hub project is fully funded, so that the north can enjoy the economic as important as the Crossrail project is to London. In benefits that that would deliver: 20,000 to 30,000 new many ways, it is helpful to see the project in those terms. jobs and £4.2 billion of wider economic benefits? Secondly, Between the cities of Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield, given that the Government have rightly funded HS2, Manchester and Liverpool, 14 million people live and which enjoys a benefit-cost ratio of 1.6:1 and that the work and travel. Much of the rail traffic has to go northern hub enjoys a business case of more than 4:1, through an antiquated interchange of rail routes through does she agree that it makes economic sense to fund the Manchester and the surrounding area, and very few hub fully? people—if any—in this room can have any doubt whatsoever that the northern hub project is absolutely Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): crucial to the future of the economy in the north of I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the England. debate. I very much enjoyed his use of the phrase There is no doubt that, in the past 10 years, there has “pan-northern,” of which we should have more in been a transformation in rail across the north of England, Parliament. I support entirely his position on funding with more and more passengers choosing to travel by the hub holistically as one scheme to get the maximum train. That modal shift, if we can describe it as such, has benefit from it, but what information does he have supported significant economic growth in the north, as 301WH Northern Rail Hub18 JANUARY 2012 Northern Rail Hub 302WH people are able feasibly to commute further to work or would cut the journey time between Sheffield and to execute their business. However, that growth is now Manchester and, importantly, would allow two more threatened, not only because of the reckless risks being trains to run throughout the day. That will help to cut taken with our economy by the coalition, but because the daily overcrowding, which has already been mentioned, of the need to modernise our infrastructure in the north on cross-country routes. of England so that we do not constrict growth and The estimated cost of those improvements, as the discourage investment. hon. Member for Colne Valley said, is £260 million—a Some people might ask, “Why is Manchester’s railway large sum, but not great when placed alongside the network so crucial to the north or the country as a £16 billion budget for Crossrail. It is estimated that for whole?” I would refer back to the comments made by every £1 invested, as my hon. Friend the Member for the hon. Member for Colne Valley to make that case. In Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) said a moment the early days, the project was sponsored by the Northern ago, there would be a return of £4 in economic benefits. Way—an organisation, incidentally, formed by the three Crucially, we need the whole of the package to deliver regional development agencies abolished by the that economic benefit. I see the current congestion and Government—and was called the Manchester hub, not problems in the network as a knot. To deal with the the northern hub. Politically, the decision was taken at problems created by a knot, one does not half untie it. an early stage to rename the developing project the The whole knot has to be loosened and dealt with to get northern hub, because it was quickly recognised that the benefit, and that is the important point. We have to the benefits realised were not just for Manchester but unknot the network and deal with all the problems for the whole of the north of England. It was felt that if created by congestion around Manchester. There is no we were ever to get the project off the ground and point in untying part of the knot; we have to deal with funded by the Treasury, it had to be seen as something the whole problem to get the benefit. that benefited the whole of the north. That is why I The Chancellor’s recent autumn statement announced make reference to Crossrail. As I said earlier, in a sense, the Government’s intention to fast-track some elements the northern hub project unknots the problems with of the northern hub project. That commitment is welcome cross-country trains in a way that will impact on a but it goes nowhere near far enough. Work on the population of 14 million people. Ordsall chord will enable trains from Manchester airport, and Liverpool to Leeds, to use the modernised Manchester Yasmin Qureshi: As somebody who formerly lived in Victoria station, but that only partially answers the the south, I am very happy about the funding for question of congestion in and around Manchester. The Crossrail. Is it right, though, that the benefit-cost ratio announcement to electrify the north Pennine route and of Crossrail is 1:7, as opposed to 4:1 for the northern the electrification of other routes around the north-west hub? Clearly, there is much more benefit to the northern is welcome, but while that will allow lighter, more hub than to Crossrail. efficient trains to use those routes, it will not relieve all congestion and will not help passengers from Sheffield, Angela Smith: I agree entirely with that point. The and those further east on the Hope Valley line, to enjoy northern hub would do a great deal to help tackle the faster, more frequent trains. That has a massive impact economic disparities between the south-east of England on the east coast and the Humber bank. The Hope and the north. Valley line is critical to all train journeys from Cleethorpes and Grimsby through to Manchester airport, as well as What is the northern hub project that we have heard Sheffield. so much about? The hon. Member for Colne Valley illustrated it well: it is a series of works, new track and If the north of England is to close the economic gap increased platform capacity in Manchester that will with London and the south-east, it is my firm belief remove track conflicts and relieve traffic congestion. that this project has to be given the green light in its The works will allow up to 700 more trains a day, with entirety for the next control period. The full range of space for 44 million more passenger journeys a year. benefits envisaged by the project, benefits that we know Completion of the works will allow two new fast trains are desperately needed to help the north to grow, will an hour to run between Manchester Victoria and Liverpool, not be realised unless we deliver every element of the with, as the hon. Gentleman said, six fast trains an hour project. between Leeds and Manchester, as opposed to four We have called for this debate today because we have now. been receiving worrying signals from the Minister. I pay Just as important for someone who represents a tribute to her, which may seem unusual for an Opposition south Yorkshire constituency, journey times between politician, for the way she has handled the High Speed 2 Leeds, Sheffield and Manchester—what I have referred debate. She has shown a firm grasp of the detail and has to in the past as the “golden triangle” of the north— been staunch in her commitment to the project, and I will be reduced significantly. Leeds, Sheffield and would like to see the same for the northern hub. The Manchester are equidistant, economically important point made earlier, that the northern hub is critical to and interdependent, and we have to maximise the potential complementing HS2, is the important point. of those three great cities. I have argued previously that On capacity in the north of England, if it is cheaper the present situation whereby it takes up to an hour and to tunnel than to dig steep embankments in the Chilterns, often longer to travel the 30 miles between Sheffield and surely we can consider reopening the Woodhead line. It Manchester is unacceptable. That represents a journey has been said to me that the tunnelling that would be time not a great deal different from that experienced by required on the Woodhead line if we were to reopen it is our Victorian forebears—that is how little the north of far too expensive for the Department for Transport to England has moved forward in rail journey time and consider. Let us therefore have that one back on the capacity in the past century. A completed northern hub table while we are at it. 303WH Northern Rail Hub18 JANUARY 2012 Northern Rail Hub 304WH

[Angela Smith] lines, but a failure—the key point—to actually light the areas such that for three days we had an extra carriage For many years, the north has lagged behind the on the crucial 7.42 from Hexham to Newcastle and then south-east in rail investment. Now is the time to change the union decided that it was not safe for its drivers to that. It is time to acknowledge that transport spending walk in an unlit area to change it all around. Consequently, for the north has lagged significantly behind that made torchgate means that, in the absence of a torch and the available for London and the south-east, and that action ability to navigate from one end of the train to the needs to be taken to correct this unfairness in funding other, the train has been cancelled to the great detriment allocations by the Department for Transport. This is of my local residents. the best opportunity we have had for years to correct Hilariously, these trains are Leyland buses on wheels. that situation by giving the go-ahead to this project in They are the original 1985 Leyland national bus, which its entirety. has been turned into a train, and upgrades are welcomed I pointed out at the start of my contribution that a greatly, but the idea that in the north of the north we are completed northern hub helps not only Manchester but being supported by Northern Rail and that the northern the rest of the north of England. I call on the Government hub goes that way, is genuinely not being felt by local to prioritise this work. It makes sense for the north and commuters and people who utilise this service. it makes sense for rebalancing the economy, so it makes I am acutely conscious that other colleagues wish to sense for the UK as a whole. get in. I urge Northern Rail to change its approach, resolve the torchgate problem, increase the capacity on 2.56 pm the Hexham line and, generally, address the manifest Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I will try to be a failure to be flexible. I suggest that the Minister can little briefer and more directly to the point. I make the address this. All the rail companies that we have to deal fundamental point that I support the assertions in with as we develop and move forward are not looking at favour of the northern hub, and briefly reflect on the what the customer wants: they are working out what fact that we now have a situation where the Secretary of they want to do, not what the customer wants to do. Let State is from Rotherham. Is that not a good thing, as a me give an isolated, easy example. northerner? The Minister has been repeatedly up to A plethora of fans want to support Newcastle United Newcastle, both before and after the general election, or Sunderland on a match day, including Saturday. and we have a Parliamentary Private Secretary, my hon. People might think that it would be obvious for a rail Friend the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough company to lay on extra trains or carriages to entitle (Andrew Jones), who is from Harrogate and is a former people to do that and travel in the right way, but that is vice-chair of the all-party parliamentary rail in the not happening. I urge the Minister to speak to Northern north group. It is a positive step to have Ministers and Rail about the extent to which it can become more parliamentarians who are genuinely interested in transport flexible, so that we can have a better, more functional in the north, and particularly in railways. rail system. I endorse all that has been said on HS2. That does not mean to say that we do not have to monitor the 3pm contracts, support it in the right way and monitor it so it goes well, but fundamentally it is a great thing that we Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): I have HS2 investment and the degree of investment we will, like the hon. Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman), have had in the northern hub, with the Ordsall chord curtail what I was going to say. I congratulate the hon. and the electrification that has taken place, which will Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) on securing produce extra capacity. I regularly take the train from the debate and agree with everything that he said. I will King’s Cross to Newcastle and, on the last two occasions, not attempt to repeat it, particularly when so many hon. far from being happy-go-lucky in first class, I have sat Members want to speak. all the way to York outside the toilets, because that was It is worth having some context in our debate. There the only place where there was any space on the floor. was roughly an 80-year decline in rail services between 1920 and 2000 and, unexpectedly, over the past 10 or Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): Quite right. 12 years, there has been a dramatic increase in the number of passengers using the railways. I am not sure Guy Opperman: Some would say, “Quite right, too.” I that the Department for Transport has completely caught do not think that everybody else is doing that, but the up with a system that is expanding, although I accept point is this: all of us see, commuting as we do to the that it has done so in respect of HS2—I am talking north, the degree to which there is a lack of capacity on about the rest of the system. The basic way to determine the trains at peak times. I support wholeheartedly the investment decisions during that long decline was to work that is being done by the North East chamber of follow congestion, which meant simply putting money commerce, which is very supportive of the northern into the south-east of England. hub, and by the Tyne Valley community rail partnership. When one justification for the huge investment that I want to raise one follow-on point from the northern goes into rail is to close the north-south divide, one can hub and how Northern Rail in particular is conducting no longer justify, if one ever could, spending 90%-odd itself in the north-east and in Northumberland. If colleagues of rail investment in London and the south-east. One will indulge me for two minutes, I will explain. “Torchgate” way to change that is to ensure that the northern hub is is not a matter that I expect the Minister to solve, but it completed in one go. I understand that the Treasury is is important that she understands the great difficulties assessing it over the next six to eight weeks. I should like that Northern Rail has produced. There have been a to make the solid case for the whole northern hub going number of new carriages applied to the Northumberland forward, for the reasons that my hon. Friend the Member 305WH Northern Rail Hub18 JANUARY 2012 Northern Rail Hub 306WH for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) and for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) established the other hon. Members have stated. Detailed points need all-party group on east-west rail and three days later got to be made about why the hub will not be as effective if funding for it, which is a phenomenal achievement. If it does not all go together as one. we could do the same in the north, we would be grateful. I welcomed the previous Secretary of State’s statement The economy of the north has changed enormously. to go ahead with the Ordsall chord, which is part of the northern hub. But if the whole system does not go Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): Talk about together, there will be a reduction in services to Huddersfield, east-west travel is often about going from Leeds to because unless an extra line is put in at Diggle to take Manchester, but there is Yorkshire and the Humber the trains past it—I am sure that northern Ministers in beyond—further east. I remind my hon. Friend of the Department will be familiar with the railway lines connectivity into Hull and, on the south bank, through there—the extra trains on the Ordsall curve will mean a to Cleethorpes. People in that area are in the golden reduction in trains on that route. If such details, including square of Goole, Cleethorpes, Scunthorpe and Hull. whether the chord will be there if the size of station The fact that Network Rail is considering electrification platforms is not increased, are not dealt with, we will through to Hull is welcome and I hope that the Minister not get the benefit from the investment in the Ordsall will work hard to achieve it, too. chord. Stuart Andrew: My hon. Friend never ceases to remind Both in detail and in general terms, now is the time us that Yorkshire goes further east than Leeds. I support for the Government to say, as they have said, “We are his comments. going to try and do something about the north-south divide”, and that means investing in the rail system. Karl McCartney: Please do not forget Lincolnshire Half a billion pounds is never a trivial amount, but either, and Lincoln. compared to the amount going into Crossrail it may Stuart Andrew: It has nothing to do with me; it is up seem to be. I disagree slightly with my hon. Friend the to the Minister. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge, because this is not the equivalent of Crossrail. We do not have such an Thinking about the economy, my constituency comprises equivalent. This is more the equivalent of Thameslink, old mill towns. The mills have now gone and people which frees up capacity in the south-east, and even now travel much further to go to work. We have excellent, there it is still only 10% of the cost of Thameslink. vibrant cities and towns in the north of England. We have a horrible reputation of wearing cloth caps and so With a benefit-cost ratio of 4:1, the Government on, but some vibrant work is going on. should be grabbing at the scheme. There are potentially I am proud that Leeds, Harrogate, York, Wakefield 44 million passenger places on 700 trains. There will be and Bradford are working together in the Leeds city enormous economic benefit to the whole of the north region, ensuring that they are making the best of what of England. I hope that the Minister assures us that she we have. The chamber of commerce has now linked and her colleagues will press the Treasury and ensure together with Leeds and north Yorkshire. But we need that, in the next high level output specifications period, to work even more widely, so that Leeds, Liverpool, we get the full northern hub scheme. Manchester, York, Sheffield and Hull can take up the opportunities that are there. However, there is an obstacle: 3.5 pm the current network is struggling. There are more passengers Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): It is a pleasure to on our railways, more cars on our roads and more serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I congratulate freight on the motorways. We need to make it easier to my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Jason get around. McCartney) on securing this important debate. My mother visited me recently and wanted to get over to Chester to see the rest of her family. Trying to We have talked about a number of transport issues in plan her journey from Leeds to Chester was ridiculous, this Chamber in the past two years. It is becoming a because she would have had to make a number of regular occurrence that I enjoy immensely. Credit to the changes and spend a long time on platforms waiting for Government, because there has, in fairness, been some connecting trains. real investment in infrastructure projects in the north of England, which was sadly lacking for many years. For Not so long ago, when I went on a Select Committee example, two new rail stations in my constituency have visit to Wrexham, I thought I would be good and get been announced; there is M62 investment; and the the train back to Leeds. It took me four and a half south access to Leeds railway station means that there is hours on five different trains, by which time all the an opportunity to expand economic development in the officials from the Select Committee had got back to south of the city. London. It is ridiculous that I cannot make a journey that would take an hour and a half by car in a similar HS2 is a real vote of confidence for the north. The Y time on the train. route was one of the best decisions made, particularly for those of us in Yorkshire. We must not miss that Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): My hon. opportunity.We have to plan for its arrival now. Throughout Friend touches on an important point, because if we the HS2 debate, many of those opposing it were saying, are serious about wanting to achieve a modal shift from “Once it comes, it will suck life out of the region.” It is car to rail, we have to look at the whole journey time. If important that we get this right and solve that problem I visit him, I can get quickly from Milton Keynes to before it occurs. I do not want them to be proved right. Manchester by train, but it takes as long again to get We have talked lots about travelling from the north to from Manchester to Leeds, so it is actually quicker for the south, but we do not seem to talk enough about me to drive up. If we want to achieve that modal shift, getting from east to west. My hon. Friend the Member we have to look at the whole journey time. 307WH Northern Rail Hub18 JANUARY 2012 Northern Rail Hub 308WH

Stuart Andrew: That is exactly why the northern hub about three times as much was invested on a per-head is so crucial. It represents a recognition that we have to basis in transport in the south and south-east as in the fuel and drive the economy to help us to rebalance it north. from public to private. We have already heard about all the benefits from my hon. Friend the Member for Colne David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): On the Valley, so I will not list them, but it is important to point about the difference in spend between the north acknowledge that businesses back the proposal. They and the south, the hon. Lady may have seen in the say that it is essential to their growth and increased Transport Committee the report from the Institute for prosperity, because they will be able to access bigger Public Policy Research, which evaluates the projects markets and attract a wider pool of talent. that the Government brought forward in the spending We have already said that we do not want to choose review in the autumn. Infrastructure spending amounted between HS2 and the northern hub—we need both. to £30 billion, and the spend per head was £2,700 in The case for the northern hub is now greater because of London, £134 in the north-west, £200 in Leeds and the commitment on HS2. Frankly, the north deserves Humberside, and £5 in the north-east. both, and it is an essential part of HS2. The Minister has listened in the past, and we have had new stations, Mrs Ellman: I have seen that report. It is significant new access and electrification, so I hope that she will that we register such great disparities, but it is even listen again. She should be proud of the fact that this more important that we try to do something about issue has united Lancashire and Yorkshire, and the them, and the northern hub represents a major opportunity people of the north, in their submission for funding. to do that. The Transport Committee has taken a particular interest in the northern hub, which we refer 3.12 pm to as an important proposal in our report on transport and the economy and our report on high-speed rail. Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): The Committee supports high-speed rail, but we I congratulate the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason registered a number of concerns, including about the McCartney) on securing the debate, which comes at an importance of ensuring that investment in necessary important time. Network Rail is looking in detail at the high-speed rail did not take place at the expense of northern hub proposals. The Government have asked investment in the existing, classic line. We cited the Network Rail to revisit the proposals before any final importance of investing in the northern hub and invited decisions are taken to ensure that the scheme will bring the Government to demonstrate their commitment to value for money. It is extremely important that we are investing in the existing line by investing in both the able not only to talk about the importance of the northern hub and high-speed rail. Perhaps they will northern hub, but to show the degree of cross-party soon be asked to show their position on the matter and support and the spread of geographical support for this to demonstrate their commitment to investing in the major scheme. existing line. I emphasise the importance of the northern hub as a strategic investment in the north. The proposals came Julian Sturdy: The hon. Lady makes a powerful case from big, strategic thinking. The three northern regional for HS2, and if we are to make high-speed rail a success, development agencies came together and thought about we need investment in the northern hub. If we are to how the regional economies could be improved, which bring passengers up to the north more quickly, do we led to the setting up of the Northern Way and the not also have to ensure that we invest in connectivity so development of the schemes for the northern hub. Today that the system that high-speed rail passengers continue we are looking at the detail and reaching the final stages their journey on is not antiquated? Otherwise, the system of approval. will not work. The northern hub is about individual projects and individual areas. It is about additional platforms and Mrs Ellman: I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. tracks, and it is hopefully about new trains. It will affect We want modern, new rail, not only on the new High a wide variety of places—Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Speed 2 line but on existing lines and connections, and Sheffield, Newcastle and Hull, to name but a few—and investing in the northern hub as a separate project is it will improve access to Manchester airport. In my one way to achieve that. constituency, people will be able to get from Liverpool At the moment, Network Rail is assessing the detail to Manchester in half an hour, and trains to Leeds will of the northern hub proposals and looking at value for take 80 minutes. In addition, there will be more of money. That needs to be done, but it is absolutely them. Those are great improvements, which will be of essential to recognise the strategic importance of this great assistance in developing Liverpool’s potential. investment in rail in the north. The Government’s The northern hub is about more than simply individual commitment to rail electrification in the north is much areas, however, important though it is for each area appreciated, but it is not an alternative to proceeding named. It involves investment of half a billion pounds, with the northern hub. I await with interest their final which will lead to a £4 billion boost for the northern decision on the northern hub, and I ask the Minister to economies, with the potential for the creation of 20,000 assure us that she recognises the strategic importance of to 30,000 jobs. That massive investment of half a billion investing in the north and to commit to the investment pounds will have a significant outcome. As hon. Members in the northern hub. have mentioned, it lies beside the £14.8 billion investment in Crossrail, just under £5 billion of which comes directly from the Government. A recent study of the 3.19 pm regional pattern of investment in transport showed that Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. 309WH Northern Rail Hub18 JANUARY 2012 Northern Rail Hub 310WH

3.33 pm The Secretary of State for Transport has, however, On resuming— said some encouraging things. She has spoken about investing in 2,700 new carriages throughout the network, Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): Order. I will be calling but as I pointed out, that will only lead to a weary shrug the Opposition spokesman no later than 5 minutes to 4. from the man trapped on the Pacer. I went through The debate will now finish at 4.15, as opposed to 4 o’clock. some of my e-mails on the subject recently, and I want to refer briefly to two of them. A chap wrote to me in Mrs Ellman: Thank you, Mr Hood. 2008 and said: I hope that the Minister can give us an assurance “Regularly there are only two carriages laid on and it is standing room before we have left the station. Breakdowns today that she recognises the importance of the northern …particularly in winter are a feature attraction of the service hub as a strategic transport investment to improve however given the age of the trains this is unsurprising. When will connectivity and economy. I hope that she can give us there be some newer trains on this line?” an additional assurance that, after due consideration, Four years later, another e-mail begins wearily: the scheme will be approved. “Yet again my journey on a Monday morning has been delayed by over an hour by the poor quality rolling stock used on the 3.34 pm Southport to Manchester line…This is on top of the regular short John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I congratulate the hon. formation of units, which appears to be a Northern Rail buzz Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) on stimulating phrase”— this important debate, and I pay tribute to other a synonym for serious overcrowding. contributors, in particular the hon. Member for Blackley I therefore welcome the progress that might be made and Broughton (Graham Stringer), who has fought a on the northern hub, and we would all like to see more long and relentless battle to get the northern hub on the progress. I like the sound of a united or pan-northern political agenda. I think it can be accepted that to get approach, which is important, because it has not always Merseyside MPs such as myself and the hon. Member been there in previous Parliaments and it is refreshing. for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) to advocate serious Often, the objection to serious infrastructure is the lack investment in Manchester takes something special, and of collective political will in an area, but cross-party, it is due to a recognition that the Manchester network is substantial and solid political will is clearly present. We a bottleneck for the whole north, affecting Leeds, Sheffield, do not need a Napoleonic regional mayor to step in and Chester, Liverpool, Lancashire, Yorkshire and various tell us what needs doing. Collectively, as politicians, we golden triangles, squares and rectangles as yet have come to the conclusion that this needs doing, and unenumerated. The effect on the north is widespread, we would just like the Minister to get on with it. and my constituents in Southport are affected too; their journeys to Manchester are a nightmare, they suffer 3.39 pm overcrowding not only on the train but at the platform in Manchester and they suffer the most appalling stock Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): I congratulate the and the most appalling service. hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) on On 20 October, at the northern rail conference, the securing this debate, and on his commitment in campaigning Minister said, rather encouragingly, that we were going for the northern hub. It is wonderful to see so many to get rid of the Pacers. We have heard that refrain hon. Members from across the north in the Chamber, before, and people have mentioned cascading stock and one or two additional supporters who are more down and so on, but in reality new trains are found first, than welcome in our fight. As chair of the all-party foremost and almost exclusively for the south-east. The group on rail in the north, I am pleased to see so many feeling in the north sometimes is that it is jam tomorrow, members of the group here. Hon. Members across and I regard High Speed 2 as jam tomorrow or some parties are united on the issue of the northern hub. We way in the distance. Collectively, as northern MPs, are divided only by the Pennines, which are another however, we all want serious incremental change now. reason why the whole hub must be united—so that we We want the better links with London, which would do not have the perpetual Pennine divide. certainly be a good thing, but currently we desperately The Minister can judge how important the issue is for need better inter-regional connectivity. all of us, and how crucial it is that the whole hub be I praise the Government and the Minister for having funded. We will not have the full economic benefit made a good start. To my great astonishment, we have across the whole north if there is a piecemeal approach. seen the introduction of new rail in the north-west with I was worried recently when the Secretary of State the Todmorden curve, and £300 million has been found talked about the welcome electrification of the Manchester- for electrification and £85 million for the Ordsall chord. York line as part of the northern hub. I do not want to The total Government commitment for rail is, however, split hairs, but electrification was always seen as an actually £18 billion, and the whole northern hub project addition to the hub, and not as the hub itself. It is has been costed at £560 million, as Members have said, essential not to lose part of the hub to that electrification, which puts things in perspective. Hon. Members have welcome though it is. It is the hub that will hold us all pointed out that the benefit-cost ratio exceeds comfortably together. the figures presented for Crossrail, which is costing The hub is not glamorous like High Speed 2, but it is about £6 billion. I speak with real bitterness because I essential if we are to tackle overcrowding, increase line was sentenced to two years, for crimes unknown, to speed, reduce journey times and increase services. It is serve on the hybrid Crossrail Bill. I was surprised at the an integral part of High Speed 2. I speak from bitter many substantial objections to the scheme, which, had experience. When Virgin high-frequency trains were it been in the north, would certainly have postponed it, introduced with three trains an hour from Manchester if not altogether eliminated it. to London, services to my constituency diminished. 311WH Northern Rail Hub18 JANUARY 2012 Northern Rail Hub 312WH

[Julie Hilling] the investment in rail. We all welcome that, but the issue is not an either/or. It is not all right to say that we can The trains terminated at Manchester Victoria, and we have part of the hub. If the whole north—the north-west, lost services to the airport and elsewhere because inter-city Yorkshire and Humberside, and the north-east—is to trains took the paths that our trains had previously benefit, the whole hub must be developed. I am worried taken. The only way to prevent that in future is to that the approach will be piecemeal. ensure that the engineering works proposed for the hub As hon. Members have said, we need connectivity are carried out. between our great cities, and the ability to travel across We will have more trains through and to Manchester, the country. We must consider the cost of having so and more trains will connect to the west coast main line. much road traffic because rail travel is not adequate. As Eventually, trains will connect to High Speed 2. That some of us have been saying for some time, it is quicker unglamorous engineering work will provide passing to drive from Manchester to Leeds than to take the places so that we continue to have slow, stopping services train. It is quicker to drive from Milton Keynes to with fast services. It will improve signalling, the Ordsall Leeds than to take the train. That is ludicrous, and we chord route across Manchester city, and Manchester need the project to alter that. Like every hon. Member Victoria station. Any hon. Members who have spent in the Chamber, I plead with the Minister to fund the time at that station will know that it is not the nicest in northern hub in full, so that we will have rail connectivity the world, and I as a woman do not feel particularly between our great cities and receive the investment the safe there. There will be improvements at the station, north so badly needs. and two new platforms at Manchester Piccadilly. Such improvements are as important to the north as 3.46 pm the shiny new 250 mph train, and will be to the whole Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): It is a pleasure, economy. Services will not then stop completely at Mr Hood, to have the opportunity to serve under your Manchester Piccadilly when the Huddersfield train leaves, chairmanship today. I congratulate the hon. Member because it crosses every train path coming into the for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) on securing this station, with the result that nothing else can come in important debate. It is even more important following and out. Constituents in Bolton will have a better, faster the recent announcement to give the go-ahead to High service, and people at my home station, Atherton, will Speed 2. That announcement is a signal of just how not have to play sardines on the train, or have long waits important investment in high-speed, efficient rail services at another gruesome station, Salford Crescent. They is for the future growth of our national and regional will be able to join the inter-city lines. economies. I absolutely support the northern hub as an The project will bring £4 of benefit for every pound important strategic investment and opportunity. spent, and will do something to redress the imbalance In that context, I want to be slightly more parochial between spending in the north and south. I do not and to plead that places and communities such as West understand why Londoners should have three times as Lancashire should not be forgotten when planning and much taxpayers’ money spent on their public transport investing in our railways. The danger for West Lancashire as our constituents in the north. is that we lose out because of the dominance of the city regions and core cities that act almost as capitals. The Graham Stringer: During the debate I have done effectiveness of such schemes lies in connectivity and some arithmetic, which I believe is right, and which my the quality of the entire rail network. West Lancashire hon. Friend may be interested in. Three months’expenditure is virtually at the crossroads of the north-west. If big on Crossrail would pay for the whole northern hub. Is circles are drawn around Preston, Liverpool and that not extraordinary? Manchester, West Lancashire is the bit in the middle. My plea in this debate and the wider debate on transport Julie Hilling: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, infrastructure investment is not to forget West Lancashire. which is interesting. It has been interesting during the Since being elected in 2005, I have campaigned constantly High Speed 2 debate that people have frowned about for improved rail infrastructure across all areas of my putting so much money into the north, and people in constituency. My great concern is that places such as the south-west have rightly asked why they are not West Lancashire are in real danger of falling behind receiving expenditure. There never seems to be an outcry with rail infrastructure. I shall give a couple of brief about expenditure in London. I spend part of my life in examples. Skelmersdale is the most populated town in London and before becoming an MP, I wanted to come my constituency, but it has no rail service at all. A major to our capital city. Investment is needed in London, but redevelopment of the town centre is about to start and it is also needed in the regions. is the biggest investment since it was established 50 years ago. We have a brand new state-of-the-art college, and Yasmin Qureshi: I am sure that hon. Members here the town has an exciting new future with many have no problem with investment in rail projects throughout opportunities, if people can get there. the country. HS2 has come in at £500 million more The really good news for the north-west is the Lancashire expensive than originally projected. The northern hub triangle rail electrification, which will be transformational itself would cost that sort of money. Does my hon. for the north-west. West Lancashire has three lines Friend agree that it should not be too difficult to find serving the area, and I ask the Minister to remember funding for the northern hub? that our biggest town, Skelmersdale, has no rail service at all. Delivery of the Lancashire triangle rail electrification Julie Hilling: I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. will leave West Lancashire in a strange position, because Of course, it is not easy to find money, and I agree that diesel trains will still run in a small area unless more it is good that the Government have protected some of investment is put into the electrification. 313WH Northern Rail Hub18 JANUARY 2012 Northern Rail Hub 314WH

If nothing is done, there will be implications on rail feel about this issue has been highlighted by the strength development in West Lancashire. For example, the and number of contributions that we have heard today. Manchester line carries an increasing number of passengers, It is important that voices from both sides of the with alternate trains going to Victoria and Manchester Pennines and from otherwise rival areas of Yorkshire airport. Transport for Greater Manchester appears to and the north-west are heard speaking as one on this be suggesting that the airport service may be sacrificed issue. Although many of the physical works of the in favour of running trains from West Yorkshire and northern hub programme fall to the west of the Pennines, east Manchester to the airport. The Kirkby to Wigan the benefits of the hub would be felt across the whole of line passes through Up Holland, which would form the the north. I can contribute to that discussion because I basis of a rail station at Skelmersdale. That line was am a Sheffield lad whose north-west constituency, although proposed for electrification in the early 1980s, and there in Cumbria, still harks back to its routes in Lancashire is clearly a need to extend the existing Merseyrail service in the old days. from Liverpool to Kirkby to serve Skelmersdale. That As Members have pointed out, the rail network could would provide an opportunity to consider a service play a significant role in securing economic growth in between Skelmersdale, Wigan and Manchester, and that the north of England. As has been highlighted, however, should be done because it is likely that many of the that potential is currently limited by pinch points and employment opportunities for those who live in West other capacity restraints across the network that limit Lancashire will be found in Liverpool and Manchester. the frequency of trains, raise journey times and reduce My third example is the route between Liverpool, reliability. As my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone Ormskirk and Preston. Ormskirk has a superb service and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) said so well, the northern to Liverpool; the line from Ormskirk to Preston has rail network reflects the needs of its 19th-century creators recently received an improved timetable, and Network and the rivalries of Victorian railway companies. It is Rail is examining the business case for an hourly service. not fit for purpose in the different economic reality of There is, however, strong demand to extend the existing the early 21st century. Merseyrail service beyond Ormskirk to Burscough and Members from all parties have pointed out the benefits the famous Burscough curves. That would enable an that the northern hub could provide, which include hourly service to Preston to be delivered at low cost. 700 extra trains per day running across the north, improved connectivity between major regional economic John Pugh: Does the hon. Lady recognise that the hubs, which would give those areas a chance to grow Government are taking a huge step in restoring the still further and provide vital regeneration, and the Todmorden curve? It shows that they are ready to look creation of up to 30,000 jobs. at such projects and provides some hope that the Burscough Improving links between northern cities and the capital curves will receive serious consideration. is important, which is why the previous Labour Government delivered the upgrade to the west coast main line and Rosie Cooper: I did not quite hear all of that, but I am why we want a greater commitment to a new high-speed hopeful that a service on the Burscough curves will line serving Manchester and Leeds than the Government eventually be established. My point is that all three have given so far. If we are serious about rebalancing routes that I have mentioned will be operating in an the UK economy and driving the growth that will area that is dominated by electric services. Electric return the country to long-term prosperity, we must not trains run only where the line is electrified, so unless the focus simply on travel between regions. Travel within trains have an additional power source that will enable regions, including northern regions, is also important, them to continue for some distance, West Lancashire and that is seen in the strength of feeling and unity that runs the risk of becoming isolated. has been displayed during this debate. As well as the new electric trains on the newly electrified There are some positive things. We welcome the Lancashire triangle—well, not new exactly, but second-hand electrification and high-speed rail initiatives in which from the London area—the superb Merseyrail electric the new Administration are sticking to the commitments network also uses third-rail electrification. If lines in made by the previous one. Question marks and concerns my area are not electrified and with the investment to remain in certain areas, but perhaps they are for another improve the national and regional rail network debate—I would be delighted if such a discussion could infrastructure, my fear is that places such as West be scheduled for the near future. Lancashire will be left behind, which we cannot afford for a plethora of social and economic reasons. Such a The Ordsall chord is a useful piece of infrastructure, move would begin to create greater disconnection and but as the hon. Member for Colne Valley highlighted, disintegration of the rail network. The challenge for me, as long as Manchester Piccadilly has just two through West Lancashire and, I hope, the Minister is to ensure platforms—as most hon. Members will be aware, those that West Lancashire does not become ever more isolated two platforms are unpleasantly cramped and overcrowded, as a small island of diesel trains that are not included in and frequently cause delays to trains—the ability to use the great opportunities and investment that is taking that station to deliver additional journey opportunities place. will be severely limited. Announcing the electrification of the route from 3.53 pm York to Manchester via Leeds is a positive move, but without the extra lines and loops to allow express trains John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): to overtake stopping services and freight trains, as It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, proposed in the northern hub, it will be hard to deliver Mr Hood, and I, too, congratulate the hon. Member for extra services or significantly faster journeys. Ministers Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) on securing this important are obviously right to examine carefully the scope and debate. How strongly Members from across the north scale of projects such as the northern hub before approving 315WH Northern Rail Hub18 JANUARY 2012 Northern Rail Hub 316WH

[John Woodcock] opposition and in government, I have been impressed by the determination of the MPs and the stakeholders them, and it is essential to achieve best value for money. behind the northern hub project. Indeed, one of my It is also, however, essential that the issues faced by the first regional visits as Minister was to meet a group of rail network in the north are addressed strategically and them in Manchester soon after the coalition was formed. not in a piecemeal fashion. As we have heard today, there is much support for the Now is the time to commit to this scheme. The sooner northern hub project. We heard the gracious support of that it is achieved, the sooner the boost to growth can the Chairman of the Select Committee on Transport, be felt where it is urgently needed. In their spending the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman), priorities, the Government chose to back-load the cuts representing the views of her Committee. We also heard to rail investment, in contrast to other areas of spending. support expressed across party lines. There was even The bulk of the proposed cuts fall in the final two years trans-Pennine solidarity, which is not something that of the spending review period, the second of which we get on every issue. I am told that this issue even represents the first year of Network Rail’s control period unites east, west, south and north Yorkshire. Again, not 5, during which the bulk of the northern hub schemes many issues do that. Last but not least, the hon. Member would be delivered. for Southport (John Pugh) commented on how dramatic The Government are committed to finding almost it was that the issue had united Liverpool and Manchester £1.3 billion of efficiency savings and cuts from the in support. Network Rail and passenger rail budgets over the period I commend the evidence-based approach that those of the comprehensive spending review, although the behind the northern hub project have taken in pressing National Audit Office has warned, understandably and the case for the hub and for improvements in rail and rightly, that great uncertainty over where the axe will other forms of transport in the north generally. Many fall still remains. That is why the continued silence on hon. Members emphasised the importance of finding this project is deeply concerning: as we can see, the lean ways to bridge the prosperity gap between north and period for rail investment is fast approaching. south, and I completely agree that improving our transport Ministers have consistently said that the case for infrastructure is an important way to achieve that goal. the northern hub is strong. They are well aware of the The Government fully appreciate the economic benefits business case showing a return of £4 for every £1 invested that improving our transport system can generate. That in the scheme. Today’s debate has shown that hon. point was emphasised by many hon. Members: my hon. Members of all parties from across the north recognise Friend the Member for Colne Valley, the hon. Member the necessity of the extra capacity, new links and faster for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) and my journeys that the northern hub will provide. I therefore hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman), hope that the Minister will make it clear that she to name but a few. We recognise the economic benefits recognises that, if we deal with the scheme in parts and that can be generated by investing in the north specifically do not implement the full package, the overall cost-benefit as well. ratio will be significantly diminished. Will she make it That is why we have placed a priority on improving clear whether she will commit to the full package of the rail network even when budgets are severely limited improvements provided by the northern hub project by the pressing need to deal with the deficit. Therefore, appearing in the high-level output specification for control as well as going ahead with the high-speed rail network, period 5 when it is published this summer? we have embarked on what is probably the biggest It is, of course, also important that the northern hub programme of rail improvements since the Victorian plans reflect the changing environment on the railways era. Those ambitious plans include a number of major and are delivered on in the most efficient way possible, projects in the north of England. Many have been so can the Minister confirm that the Government are mentioned and welcomed today, not least the new stations examining whether the package of measures can be at Kirkstall Forge and Apperley Bridge, highlighted by revised to deliver equal benefit at potentially lower cost my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew). in the light of recent announcements on trans-Pennine Our programme also includes important elements of electrification? the northern hub project. As we heard from my hon. Confidence that the region’s transport infrastructure Friend the Member for Colne Valley and others, the will be able to cope with the demands placed on it is an Ordsall chord is going ahead. That new stretch of essential part of producing the confidence needed to railway linking Victoria and Piccadilly—two of Manchester’s secure investment, jobs and economic growth across the busiest stations—has been talked about since the 1960s, north. The northern hub would help to provide that. I am told, and will deliver benefits to the whole of the That is why we are urging Ministers today to give it north of England by substantially reducing journey their full support. times between Liverpool and Leeds. The electrification of the North TransPennine route 4.1 pm between Manchester and Leeds through to York and the east coast line will also deliver important benefits. The Minister of State, Department for Transport Strictly speaking, that was not part of the original (Mrs Theresa Villiers): It is a pleasure to speak under northern hub scheme, but it was prioritised by the rail your chairmanship, Mr Hood. This has been a great industry in its initial plan, which it drew up recently. debate, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member The combined effect of North TransPennine electrification, for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) on securing it. This the Ordsall chord and line-speed improvements that are issue is clearly of great importance to the big turnout of already part of the CP4 programme will see journey hon. Members who are here today and to their constituents. times between Liverpool and Newcastle cut by as much Throughout my time with the transport brief, both in as 45 minutes. 317WH Northern Rail Hub18 JANUARY 2012 Northern Rail Hub 318WH

These programmes are already starting to provide the I can assure him that we will consider the matter with improved connectivity within the region, between the great care in the run-up to our announcement on HLOS2 cities of the north of England, that many hon. Members and the CP5 period in the summer. Whether we can have rightly highlighted as crucial if the economy in the fund the whole programme in CP5 depends on what is north is to flourish. The hon. Member for Penistone affordable within available budgets. We will also need to and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith), and my hon. Friends assess the case for improvements elsewhere in the country the Members for Pudsey and for Milton Keynes South to determine which projects can be given priority. Of (Iain Stewart) emphasised that point. The improvements course we want to fund as many projects that promote will also promote the modal shift that a number of hon. economic growth as possible, but we also need to ensure Members highlighted as important. that the Government’s overall finances are not overstretched Virtually every hon. Member who spoke emphasised in these difficult times. Given the competing demands the importance to the northern economy of implementing on limited taxpayer funding, it is vital that the overall the package in full during the 2014-2019 railway control cost of running the railways and the cost of such period. Those hon. Members included the hon. Member upgrades come down. If we can achieve the kind of for Bolton West (Julie Hilling), who is the chairman of savings that Sir Ray McNulty said were possible in his the all-party group on rail in the north, my hon. Friend report last year, it will become much easier to deliver the the Member for Colne Valley and the hon. Member for improvements that passengers want. Blackley and Broughton. We will be publishing a Command Paper on the As the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside, the reform that we need to see costs come down on the Chairman of the Select Committee, acknowledged, railways, thus improving value for money for both Network Rail is as we speak considering in detail all the passengers and taxpayers. The more inefficiency that we remaining elements of the hub that have yet to be can take out of the railways, the greater the scope for funded. The Government have asked it to do that to delivering infrastructure upgrades and additional services. assist us in the decisions that we will make in the summer. There are about nine individual packages. Naturally, today’s debate has focused primarily on Network Rail is considering, at a more detailed level, improvements to the conventional rail network in the the business case for the whole project, as well as for all north. The projects that we have given the go-ahead to those nine individual elements. This is, therefore, a in the north will complement our proposals on high-speed timely debate—a good opportunity for the House to rail. I welcome the support that has been expressed contribute to the Government’s thinking on this matter. today by a number of hon. Members for the Government’s high-speed rail proposals. The Secretary of State for Julie Hilling: I am slightly puzzled. The argument is Transport was very clear that her decision was to go that the whole of the hub gives the 4:1 benefit ratio. ahead with the whole Y network to Manchester and There is a possibility, of course, that one little place may Leeds and not just the London to Birmingham leg. HS2 give less benefit than another bit, but all together the can potentially complement the improvement of local benefit ratio is 4:1. Given what the Minister is saying, is and regional services. For example, Centro produced an there a risk that a part that has a lower cost-value ratio analysis that said that the benefits of HS2 to Birmingham but still a value will be overlooked? could be significantly increased, with improvements to the local and regional transport network in the west Mrs Villiers: As I said, we have asked Network Rail midlands. It is quite important to consider whether the to consider in greater detail the value-for-money case commitment to the Y network to the north of England for the whole project—all elements of it—because we might further strengthen the case for the northern hub believe that it is very important to consider very thoroughly package because of its potential to spread the benefits all the elements of the northern hub. That view is of high-speed rail more quickly and more widely around confirmed by the strong support expressed by hon. the north of England. Members today. In the last few minutes available to me, I want to pick With input from train operators and the passenger up on some of the more specific questions raised in the transport executives, Network Rail needs to establish debate today. My hon. Friend the Member for Colne the impact that North TransPennine electrification will Valley expressed concern about the future of services to have on the original hub proposals. It may be that the Mossley, Greenfield, Marsden and Slaithwaite. Before eventual package put forward by Network Rail, the the announcement on the electrification of the North industry and the PTEs to achieve the goals of the TransPennine route, some suggestions were made on northern hub is somewhat different from the original the future of those services and whether some stations 2009 proposals. We will obviously have to consider between Stalybridge and Huddersfield might end up carefully the input that we get from the industry groups with fewer stops. The electrification announcement means and from the PTEs in the relevant areas before we make that Network Rail will need to review this matter and final decisions on the matter. I fully appreciate how the capacity on the route. My hon. Friend made it clear much support there is for going ahead with the whole that no decision on this has been made as yet. It will not package and I fully appreciate the benefits that it could be made for some time and it will be made only after an deliver. I can assure the House that the Government appropriate public consultation. will consider the northern hub package as a whole as well as its individual elements when we make our decisions The hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge on HLOS2 and the CP5 period this summer. has again called for the reopening of the Woodhead My hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley wanted route. I have to say that that was not one that was me to pre-empt that process and make the decision prioritised as part of the northern hub because of the today. I am afraid that I will have to disappoint him, but capacity that is still available on the Hope Valley line. 319WH Northern Rail Hub 18 JANUARY 2012 320WH

[Mrs Villiers] Melanoma My hon. Friend the Member for Hexham and the 4.15 pm hon. Members for Southport and for Blackley and Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): It is a pleasure Broughton all expressed concern about crowding in the to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood, and I am north of England and the balance of spending between grateful to Mr Speaker for selecting this important north and south. I remind the House of the importance topic for debate. According to the British Journal of of the additional capacity that the Government are Cancer, the incidence of the most serious form of skin introducing through the HLOS programme. cancer, melanoma, is expected to rise by 52% in both The northern hub has achieved a significant amount men and women by 2030. One of the many tragic of support. I commend the evidence that has been aspects of advanced melanoma is that, compared with produced by the supporters of the project. It will be other cancers, it disproportionally affects younger people. useful to the Government when they make their decision. Indeed, more than a third of all cases of melanoma We will be listening with care to the views of all those in affect people who are under the age of 55. With such a the north of England who are promoting this project high incidence, combined with the aggressive nature of when we make our decisions on what rail upgrade we melanoma, treatment options are very important. can take forward in the next railway control period. I want to draw attention to the new and innovative drug, ipilimumab, also known under the trade name of Yervoy. Ipilimumab works in a new and unique way through a form of immunotherapy. It encourages the immune system to produce more cancer-killing cells. The drug is significant, and it has not been available to patients before. In July last year, ipilimumab was launched in the UK with a licence approved by the European Medicines Agency. This is the first major advance for treatment of this cancer in 30 years. However, to the disappointment of patients and stakeholders, the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence announced on 14 October that it would not be recommending ipilimumab for the treatment of advanced melanoma on the NHS. I was profoundly disappointed to discover that the chief executive of NICE, Andrew Dillon, had deemed that this treatment was not “a cost effective use of NHS resources.” In response to that news, I held a stakeholder investigation in the Houses of Parliament and invited patients, carers, clinicians, charities—they included the patient support group, Factor 50, and the Karen Clifford Skin Cancer charity, also known as Skcin—and parliamentarians to come together and discuss their personal concerns about the negative preliminary guidance that was given by NICE. Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): My hon. Friend mentioned that this disease affects younger people to a greater extent. One of my constituents, who is young and has young children, needs the drug Yervoy, which is expensive. Does she agree that we need to do everything that we can to ensure that those young children can see their mother for a longer period and that her last days are not lost days? Pauline Latham: I completely agree with my hon. Friend, and I will come on to some cases in a moment. It is a very important point. As well as coming together to share our concerns, the meeting was held to create a report that was submitted to NICE in response to the appraisal consultation document, in anticipation that it would be considered ahead of the NICE technology appraisal meeting, which took place on 16 November. We have had no response so far. When holding the meeting on advanced melanoma, I was given the opportunity to hear first hand from melanoma patients, who are desperate to receive the drug. Melanoma often strikes at the younger end of the 321WH Melanoma18 JANUARY 2012 Melanoma 322WH population. More than a third of all cases of melanoma be done? Does she think that councils need to do more? occur in people below the age of 55, and it is the second Councils have control of sunbeds, so perhaps they need most common form of cancer in the UK for those aged to say, “No more.” between 15 and 34. What those statistics on advanced melanoma in the younger population do not show is Pauline Latham: Yes, I would like that to happen. that many people in that age group will have children Looking tanned does not mean that someone is healthy. and so will face a very aggressive cancer, alongside the In fact, tanning increases the risk of malignant melanomas, knowledge that they face leaving behind their children which are rapid killers, and I would like councils to have and family. the strength to say, “No.” The patients whom I met at the meeting all echoed a It may be expensive to prescribe the drug, but it is the simple and profound point: they are desperate to stay first advance in treatment for a long time, and if used, alive, so that they can be with their children, husbands, may offer the opportunity of more trials to refine it, wives, partners and families. Given that treatment options which could lead to its becoming even more effective. for the disease have not advanced for three decades, For young people with melanomas, it is a lifeline, even if how can it be fair not to release the drug for use by they only survive for a relatively short time. Let us not those patients who could have more time with their forget the possibility that agencies, such as social services, families? One young patient—a lady aged only 30—said and welfare benefits can cost the country huge sums if at the meeting: the remaining parent has to give up their career to look “I need to live. I have to live for my children. I just want a few after a young family. Patients with this aggressive disease more years so that my boys will remember me.” are expected to have a median overall survival time of Richard Clifford, the founder and trustee of the Karen six to nine months, but in trials, 46% of patients taking Clifford Skin Cancer charity—Skcin—said at the meeting ipilimumab were still alive after a year, and in some that cases, patients can live even longer. “median overall survival time after diagnosis is six to nine months. This is tragic because people have little time to prepare themselves At the stakeholder’s meeting on 8 November, we and their loved ones for what is inevitably going to occur.” heard from a patient called Ian. He seemed well, spoke eloquently and raised many important points on access I could not agree more with his sentiments. There is to treatment, which I urge hon. Members to read in the clearly an unmet need in the treatments available, and I report that we submitted to NICE—I am happy to believe that ipilimumab has a place in today’s treatment provide a copy. Sadly, before 21 December 2011, Ian options, which are already scarce for cases of malignant became very unwell and was ultimately bedridden. The melanoma. An experienced oncologist from Leeds who short time between Ian attending the meeting in November has used ipilimumab echoed that view at the meeting: and his death a week ago demonstrates the aggressive “It is the first drug that can help people live longer or make nature of advanced melanomas. them more likely to be active for a meaningful period of time.” I add a personal plea for help: my brother died from a Lack of access to the drug is still a major concern to malignant melanoma 11 years ago this month at the age all melanoma patients and, of course, to their families of 54, one week after his birthday, leaving his wife and and friends. It is very distressing for them to know that two teenage children. I know how debilitating this form there is a drug on the market that has been proven to of cancer is and how quickly it can spread. Apart from prolong the lives of sufferers, if even for only a few radical surgery, he had very few options in terms of the months or years, yet they cannot access it through the drugs on offer. As a result of Michael’s illness and normal channels. I acknowledge that ipilimumab is death, I see my GP regularly, and I have had several available in some parts of England through the cancer pre-cancerous areas removed before they had the chance drugs fund, but it is not available in all areas, and the to progress to malignancy. fund does not even exist in Wales—yet another example of inequality from the cancer drugs fund and another illustration of a postcode lottery. Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on raising this important issue. As someone with very fair skin, I have had to have skin removed and Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): On my hon. examined, so I understand the potential consequences Friend’s point about a postcode lottery and regional and the worry that people go through. Does she agree variation, I think that she will be interested in figures that we need more education about the consequences that I recently obtained through a parliamentary question. for fair-skinned people and, indeed, everyone of too They break down the number of registrations of newly much exposure to the sun and the overuse of sunbeds? diagnosed cases of melanoma—skin cancer—by local authority and region. I would happily give her a copy. Pauline Latham: Yes, and I thank my hon. Friend for In my region of Avon, Somerset and Wiltshire, there bringing that up. Sunbeds are still a problem, particularly has been an explosion of newly diagnosed cases of skin among young women who think that having a tan cancer, from 254 in 1999 to 455 in 2008—an increase of makes them look healthier. 79%. The huge variation across the country shows that this is not just about the future, but that we have a Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the problem now that we must urgently tackle. hon. Lady on bringing this matter before the House. Skin cancer is the deadliest cancer in Northern Ireland, Pauline Latham: Yes, I agree. I thank my hon. Friend and that is very worrying. The hon. Member for Stafford for raising that point, because although we are talking (Jeremy Lefroy) mentioned sunbeds. People under the about a big increase by 2030, he is right that melanomas age of 35 who use sunbeds increase their possibility of are affecting more and more people, particularly the getting skin cancer. What does the hon. Lady think can young, and they are usually a death sentence. 323WH Melanoma18 JANUARY 2012 Melanoma 324WH

[Pauline Latham] In reference to the intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy), my hon. What will happen to those patients in areas covered Friend the Member for Mid Derbyshire talked about by the cancer drugs fund who can access ipilimumab sunbeds, and I draw her attention to the Sunbeds through the fund when funding ends in 2014? That (Regulation) Act 2010, which came into force last April, further illustrates why it is imperative that NICE making it an offence for sunbed businesses in England recommends ipilimumab, so that it is available across and Wales to permit people under the age of 18 to use England and Wales to all patients who could benefit sunbeds on their commercial premises. To reinforce from it. The Minister knows that my concerns about that, we have been working with Cancer Research UK access to treatments for other cancers—for example, through the Department-funded “R UV Ugly?”campaign Avastin as second-line treatment for bowel cancer via to raise awareness of the dangers of sunbeds and the the cancer drugs fund—are well versed through benefits of skin checks. The campaign is being run in parliamentary questions and speeches in the Chamber. partnership with the company sk:n, which is providing I remain equally determined to ensure the availability to free ultraviolet scans in its clinics across the UK. cancer patients of other life-prolonging drugs, such as That brings me on to early diagnosis, which is the ipilimumab. next step in the process. Alongside Factor 50 and Skcin, I urge in the strongest possible terms that the Department of Health, the Jim Shannon: I intervened earlier on the hon. Member manufacturers and NICE work together, so that ipilimumab for Mid Derbyshire (Pauline Latham), regarding councils is available to appropriate patients across England and sometimes needing to be more aware of what they can Wales. There are huge concerns that, without a positive do. Has the Minister any intention of asking councils to decision on ipilimumab, patients will lose out on a be more proactive in preventing sunbed use? That is lifeline to have those extra months or even years with perhaps a key question. their loved ones. 4.28 pm Paul Burstow: In England, one of the opportunities The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul coming up as a result of the Health and Social Care Bill Burstow): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member is the transfer of public health responsibilities to local for Mid Derbyshire (Pauline Latham) on securing the authorities. Alongside the authorities’ other responsibilities debate and bringing this important issue to the attention for environmental health and trading standards, that of the House today, and on the way she set out the issue brings both enforcement and education opportunities, and spoke of her experiences and of those whom she which will be very important in making the existing represents. She powerfully made the case for the drug regulations even more effective. and, more generally, for the need to raise awareness in Earlier diagnosis is central to the strategy the Government order to educate people and to ensure they take the have laid out, because if we catch more cancers earlier right steps better to protect themselves from melanomas. they will become more treatable. The SunSmart campaign I want to make it clear that the Government’s has a website that provides information about how to commitment to improving outcomes for cancer patients, spot the symptoms of the disease, and during 2011 it including people with malignant melanoma—the most received more than 11,000 visits per month on average, serious form of skin cancer, as my hon. Friend said— peaking in June, surprisingly, with more than 21,000 remains unwavering. Our cancer outcomes strategy, visits. With a programme grant from the Department of which we published just a year ago, sets out our aims for Health, Cancer Research UK and the British Association delivering health care outcomes as good as those anywhere of Dermatologists are working together on a toolkit to in the world. Our ambition is to reduce significantly the provide practical online support and training to help number of deaths from preventable and avoidable cancers. GPs with pattern recognition for skin lesions. The toolkit The strategy sets out actions to tackle preventable cancer will be piloted early this year, before a planned national incidence, improve the quality and efficiency of cancer roll-out, building on the evidence base. treatment and services, improve patients’ experience of That leads me on to treatment. Once skin cancer is care, and improve the quality of life for cancer survivors. diagnosed, access to appropriate treatment, delivered to I will start with prevention, to which some reference a high standard, is critical. Increasing access to cancer has already been made, because it is the really important treatments is a goal that all Members who have contributed, aspect of this issue. Cancer Research UK has been or are listening, to the debate share. I pay tribute to my running the SunSmart campaign on behalf of the hon. Friend the Member for Mid Derbyshire for her Department of Health for a number of years. It is a campaigning work on behalf of a number of her national campaign that provides information and advice constituents and other people, and I would like to set about skin cancer and sun protection, and it has a out the current situation in relation to ipilimumab. I am particular focus on young people aged 16 to 24, for the struggling with the pronunciation of that word, and I very reasons that my hon. Friend rightly mentioned. Its apologise; I do not in any way wish to denigrate the major activity in 2011 was a bespoke marketing partnership issue. It is really important to explain where we are, with T4 on the Beach, which is a popular music festival, because the drug is being appraised by NICE for use in I am told. At the event, about 3,225 people in the target the treatment of stage 3 and stage 4 malignant melanoma. audience were directly engaged by the campaign, and NICE has a rather difficult job, and my hon. Friend has the evaluation showed that those who saw the T4 SunSmart fairly described the challenge it faces in coming to its campaign were more likely to report that they would judgments. NICE’s role is to provide the NHS with wear sunscreen in the future—72%, compared with robust, evidence-based guidance on whether a drug 52%. Clearly, there are lessons to learn from that for should be available, on clinical and cost-effectiveness future campaigns in this area. grounds. I would like to reassure my hon. Friend that 325WH Melanoma18 JANUARY 2012 Melanoma 326WH

NICE recognises that its work has genuine consequences of the palliative care review last year, and we are looking and has an impact on individuals’ lives. It makes a great forward to making announcements on it in the near effort to ensure that clinicians, patients, and anyone future. with an interest is involved in its work. I will forward my The cancer drugs fund means that clinicians in England hon. Friend’s speech to NICE and ensure that it sees it. are now able to prescribe cancer drugs from which they NICE published its draft guidance on both the clinical feel patients would benefit, without restrictions simply and cost-effectiveness of ipilimumab last October. My on cost grounds. That goes back to the absolutely hon. Friend has explained that the document does not correct point made earlier by my hon. Friend the Member recommend the use of the drug by the NHS, and she for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) about has described, in no uncertain terms, the dismay and adding years, months and days to a person’s life, and disappointment that she and others feel on behalf of ensuring that those days are not lost. the families and the sufferers. However, NICE has not Up until last November, 10,000 cancer patients had yet finalised its guidance to the NHS, and I am sure that benefited from the cancer drugs fund and clinical Members will appreciate that, because NICE is an recommendations, with a number of them receiving independent body, it would not be appropriate for me to ipilimumab through the fund. Strategic health authority dictate to or direct it. What I can tell Members—I hope regional clinical panels are using their clinical judgment. this will be at least a glimmer of light—is that Bristol-Myers I understand the concern raised by my hon. Friend the Squibb, the manufacturer of the drug, has proposed a Member for Mid Derbyshire about variation, but we patient access scheme, and the Department has agreed are assured that there is consistency between areas, and that NICE can consider it. I understand that NICE will if there is any evidence to the contrary, I urge her to now ask its appraisal committee to consider the scheme share it with the Department so that we can pursue as part of its reconsideration of the drug. that. Until NICE publishes its final guidance, PCTs are On the cancer drugs fund in Wales, the devolved responsible for making funds available on the basis of Administration have to make their own judgment about individual needs in their local populations. There is no how to prioritise NHS spending, and in contrast to the excuse at this point for PCTs not to do that, and UK Administration they have decided to reduce spending patients have a right under the NHS constitution to on the NHS. expect local decisions about the funding of medicines My hon. Friend also asked about the future arrangements and treatments to be made rationally, following proper when the cancer drugs fund finishes. We want to find a consideration of all the evidence. In addition, where a way for patients who benefit from drugs provided through treatment is not normally funded, PCTs are required to the fund to continue to do so, at a cost that represents have processes in place to consider exceptional funding value to the NHS and to our wider society. We are requests if a doctor feels that a particular patient’s considering whether it would be sensible, after the fund exceptional clinical circumstances would warrant such comes to an end in 2014, to assess some of the drugs, funding. To help PCTs make these difficult decisions, including the one we are debating, under the new value- the Department has issued a set of core principles that based pricing arrangements. A final decision has not yet should govern them. been made on that, but I will certainly write to my hon. That is the current regime, and when this Government Friend as we get to a conclusion. came into office they decided to go further, as part of My hon. Friend drew attention to the potential wider their coalition programme. We are delivering on a promise costs of cancers such as melanoma. As we develop our in our programme for Government to create a cancer value-based pricing system, it is important that we drugs fund. In the first year of the fund we have ensure that those wider costs are taken into account. We provided £50 million, and from 2010 through to the end want a more systematic and transparent way of working, of the fund there will be £600 million. I will say a bit so that interested parties, including pharmaceutical more later about what happens after the fund ends. companies, charities, Members of Parliament and the general public, are clear in advance about what factors can be taken into account and what supporting evidence Rehman Chishti: It is great to hear the Minister saying will be needed. that we are looking to ensure that people can get new drugs, such as Yervoy. Does he agree that we must also I thank my hon. Friend for raising this issue. I hope ensure that PCTs, local authorities and the voluntary that a glimmer of hope is provided by a new scheme sector provide excellent palliative care to the terminally that could allow NICE to re-appraise the drug and ill? come to a different conclusion. We will now wait to see how NICE proceeds. It is absolutely right to use parliamentary opportunities such as this to raise awareness. Paul Burstow: My hon. Friend makes a very important It is by raising awareness that we will save lives, which is point. He will know that we received the recommendations the bottom line. 327WH 18 JANUARY 2012 Female Employment (Scotland) 328WH

Female Employment (Scotland) Ann McKechin: With respect to the hon. Lady, to a woman in a low-paid job who has just been made 4.40 pm redundant, comparative unemployment levels south and Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): As you will north of the border are immaterial; the problem is that be aware, Mr Hood, Scotland has been much in the she has lost her income. That is complacency and news during the past couple of weeks, but I will focus political gamesmanship. People who face job loss require on the real world experienced by its citizens and the new a much better answer. challenges that are emerging, rather than fixate on a process story that fascinates only a small minority of Dr Whiteford: Will the hon. Lady give way? our population but looks set to continue for many days, weeks and months to come. Ann McKechin: I am sorry, but I wish to make One major feature of the post-war era has been progress and give the Minister an opportunity to respond. women’s increasing economic power and growing The result of this lack of action is now showing in participation in the workplace. Women are better educated our economy. A TUC report last month showed that than ever, and girls outperform boys at school and their long-term unemployment is rising faster in Scotland male colleagues at university. They now populate the than in any other nation or region of the UK, and that ranks of middle management. More than 45% of solicitors Scotland has eight of the 10 local authority areas in the UK now are women, and it is predicted that by showing the largest percentage increases in long-term 2017, there will be more female doctors than male. Even unemployment over the past year. Last year, more than during the economic downturns of the 1980s and 1990s, 26,000 Scots spent their second Christmas in a row on female employment levels were not substantially dented, the dole. possibly because women dominated many low-paid and Sadly, it is likely that the rate of female unemployment part-time jobs, as they still do today. in Scotland will increase. Women hold about two thirds However, the current economic downturn has created of jobs in the public sector, and job reductions north of a serious and potentially permanent shift in the jobs the border are occurring somewhat later than in England. market. Not only has it halted women’s progress in the Unfortunately, 2012 looks likely to be a bleak year for workplace and our economy more generally, but it risks everyone, regardless of where in the United Kingdom putting it into reverse. We urgently need greater analysis they live. There are still substantial job cuts to come in and a determined political will to ensure that women, the public sector, where women dominate. TUC analysis who make up the majority of our population, do not shows that an estimated 70,225 public sector jobs in find their opportunities for advancement crushed. Scotland will be cut between now and 2017. The problem exists on either side of the border, but regrettably, in some cases, the position in Scotland is Dr Whiteford: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for worse than overall UK averages, as I will highlight. I giving way and conscious of her time. Will she at least have been concerned about it for many months. That is acknowledge that, given the concentration of women in why, along with women from business, academia and low-paid jobs in Scotland, and the dominance of women the trade union movement, I called last year on the in the public sector, the single best thing that has Select Committee on Scottish Affairs and committees happened has been the introduction of a living wage in at Holyrood to carry out specific investigations so that those parts of Scotland’s public sector for which the we can examine the issue in further detail. Scottish Government are responsible? That living wage, Although there is an understandable focus on the and a guaranteed pay increase for people on low wages worryingly high youth unemployment—today’s figures in Scotland, will benefit women disproportionately. showed the extent of the problem—the number of women claiming unemployment benefits in Scotland Ann McKechin: I certainly agree that the living wage increased by more than 15% between November 2010 is an excellent way to address issues of low pay. That is and the end of 2011, rising from 36,300 to 42,100. By why I am delighted that Glasgow city council led the contrast, the male claimant count rose by only 1% way on that matter. I note that qualification, but it is during the same period. Our female unemployment rate regrettable that the Scottish Government have not insisted is now at its highest in more than 23 years. When the that all employees of local authorities and public agencies Scottish Government were asked in December to comment in Scotland—not just civil servants, who are by far the on those figures, their response was that the rate of minority of public servants in Scotland—also be paid a female unemployment remained lower than the UK living wage if they are on low salaries. average. Funnily enough, that was their response at the start of last year to the general unemployment rate: that There is more evidence that, unlike in previous recessions, is, until the comparison started to go in the opposite men are now more willing to take on part-time work, direction, when they stopped mentioning it at all. which again has historically been female-dominated, or work in sectors such as retail and caring. The Scottish Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): I Trades Union Congress pointed out the growing problem congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this debate. of under-employment in a comprehensive study in I only regret that it is such a short opportunity to September. It estimates that, in Scotland, more than discuss this extremely important issue. Does she accept 17% of the working-age population are either unemployed that, although there is no complacency in Scotland or under-employed: that is, working part-time but seeking about any sort of unemployment, the fact that female full-time employment. That equates to more than 460,000 employment in Scotland has been consistently higher Scots who are currently unable to access the quality than the UK average must also be taken into consideration? full-time work opportunities necessary to provide a That must be included in the context of understanding decent standard of living for themselves and their families. why our female unemployment is at the level it is. The STUC’s latest analysis for December increased that 329WH Female Employment (Scotland)18 JANUARY 2012 Female Employment (Scotland) 330WH figure to more than 500,000. More and more Scots must Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): Does my rely for lengthy periods on a string of temporary contracts, hon. Friend think that there is a correlation between the agency work and the much-abused zero hours contracts. increase in female unemployment and the increase in Such working arrangements form an increasing slice of child poverty? low-paid work in which, again, women are the clear majority. Ann McKechin: I agree with my hon. Friend, who is Both the UK and Scottish Governments are obliged an expert in this area, that there is a direct correlation. by the Equality Act 2010, passed by the last Labour It is no surprise that there is an increase in child poverty Government, to give due consideration to the implications at the same time as that in female unemployment, even for gender equality of their policies. So far, the lack of though both Governments have a statutory duty to rigorous gender impact assessment of the many complex make sure that they reach demanding targets. That is changes made over the last year has pushed many another good reason why this issue needs to be addressed. women into substantial economic hardship. The Institute We need to assess where women will be in any new for Fiscal Studies report commissioned by the Fawcett economy over the next few years. That economy will Society last July revealed that, overall, single female apparently be less reliant on the service sector and will households will be significantly harder hit during 2010-2015, involve the engagement of a greater proportion of the in terms of net income loss, than their male equivalents, work force in science, engineering and technology largely because more than 92% of lone parents in this occupations, both at graduate and, just as importantly, country are women. Although the female rate of college and craft levels. Although women make up more unemployment is still lower than the male rate, the than 45% of the UK work force, they remain under- impact of female unemployment can often be more represented in those SET occupations. In 2010, only considerable. For example, it has more effect on children 12% of all SET employees were female, and the UK has living in single-parent households. the lowest proportion of female engineering professionals in the European Union, at just less than 9%. Gender An analysis of the June 2010 Budget by the House of segregation is especially extreme in SET skilled trades, Commons Library found that women will pay roughly such as electrical work, with women forming roughly 72% of the net cost of the changes in taxes, benefits and 1% of the work force. It is deeply regrettable that the tax credits set out in the Budget. The subsequent UK Government have stopped funding the UK Resource comprehensive spending reviews in 2010 and 2011 ushered Centre for Women in Science, Engineering and Technology. in further cuts and welfare reforms that have shifted yet That has been handed over to the Royal Society and the more of the burden on to women and families. Of the Royal Academy of Engineering. I have nothing against £18.3 billion a year raised through net direct tax, pay either of those eminent institutions, but they are not and pension changes since the 2010 election, £13.2 billion accountable to our electorate or to this Parliament, and comes from women. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has their fellowships are both more than 90% male. calculated that, as a direct result of the UK Government’s tax and benefit changes, the average family of four will Scotland is rightly proud of its scientific and engineering see a deduction in their income of £1,250 per annum by history and its strong academic reputation, but why is 2015. there utter silence apparently on the role of women? A look at the Scottish media might point us towards one Both Governments accept the argument that good- of the sources of the problem. Not one of our main quality and affordable child care is key to allowing Scottish print titles has a female editor, and there are many women to fully access the jobs market. It should very few female journalists in news. The vast majority be a matter for serious concern that Scotland has the of columnists and bloggers are male, too. Even the BBC highest child care costs in the United Kingdom, and the is not without fault. During last year’s Scottish Parliament UK Government have compounded the problem by election campaign, “Newsnight Scotland” ran an entire cutting the proportion of child care costs that are extended half-hour programme with a panel of eight covered for families eligible for working tax credit from men and a male presenter. That is not an exception, but 80% to 70%. Research published by Aviva last summer too often it is the norm. In too many areas of our public shows that, already, thousands of women have left the life—the media being just one example—the rate of workplace to look after families because work is increasingly increase in female representation remains stubbornly considered to be uneconomical. low, and without proper focus it can easily fall back. In November, The Scotsman reported that the number I am pleased that the Royal Society of Edinburgh, of Scottish youngsters attending child care services has with the involvement of Professor Anne Glover, the fallen after a quarter of registered crèches closed in two chief scientific adviser for Scotland, has established a years. A number of holiday play schemes, out-of-school working group to develop a cohesive and comprehensive clubs, play groups and children and family centres have strategy for Scotland to increase both the proportion of also shut their doors, as cuts to public services hit women in the science, technology, engineering and maths harder. In October, the Scottish Government launched work force, and the number who rise to senior positions a new fund for child care projects, but £1.5 million over in universities, institutes and business. The report is due three years for the whole country is grossly inadequate shortly and I hope that both Governments will give it if we are serious about our children’s future and the the attention it deserves. ability of their mothers to work their families out of As I mentioned earlier, the picture in non-graduate poverty. STEM employment is even grimmer, and I am struck by As well as the failure to assess the impact of current how few public agencies in Scotland have given this any policies on women over the next few years, there is also attention, but, given that we have only three female an urgent need to assess where women will be in any council leaders out of 32 in Scotland, should we be new economy. surprised? I have been impressed by the good example 331WH Female Employment (Scotland)18 JANUARY 2012 Female Employment (Scotland) 332WH

[Ann McKechin] consequentials for Scotland. At the same time, our reforms of public service sector pensions will mean that set by the Olympic Delivery Authority in its procurement lower-paid public sector employees, including many processes. It introduced a business charter for inclusion, women, will get better pensions. On top of this, the UK which, as well as pushing contractors to do more, also, Government have announced new support for women’s crucially, provided them and their employees with support enterprise, with funding to provide 5,000 mentors for and training. The charter rightly calls for diversity and new and existing female entrepreneurs. Similarly, the inclusion to be at the heart of an organisation’s culture, establishment of the Women’s Business Council is geared including the way in which it recruits and treats its own towards helping the Government to maximise women’s staff. The impact of that initiative has been considerable. contribution to future UK economic growth. As of last year, more than 1,000 women were directly I recognise that there are concerns that women are involved in the construction work on the site. Can hon. being disproportionately affected by unemployment. Members imagine if we could reach those sorts of levels Fears have been raised because of the predominance of with the forthcoming work on the new Forth road women in the retail sector, in local government employment, bridge? The question we need to ask in Scotland is: why in the NHS and in part-time work. However, as John are we so far behind the curve? Philpott, the chief economic adviser at the Chartered This is an example of how Government—national Institute of Personnel and Development said last month, and local—can help to change culture and practice. I it has been tough for both sexes in the 2011 jobs market. believe that even in the toughest of economic times it is He commented: not impossible to look at, first, an action plan to “What we do know is that the relative position of women has combat women’s unemployment, and secondly, a nationwide not so far worsened as much as commonly perceived or as widely code of conduct in the public, private and voluntary anticipated given the high concentration of women workers in the sectors driven by public procurement to increase diversity. public sector and in part-time jobs more generally.” My challenge to both Administrations is to start working Labour market analysis published last month by the together now in 2012 for a fair work arena for women, Scottish Government shows the trend in Scotland over because we deserve it. the past year is for women moving out of unemployment and inactivity into employment. As the Minister of 4.56 pm State, Department for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland Grayling), said today, (David Mundell): It is a pleasure, Mr Hood, to serve “The latest figures reflect the current challenging economic under the chairmanship of a constituent. I congratulate climate but also show more women entering the workforce.” the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) That was backed up by the Prime Minister, who told the on securing this debate about female employment trends House earlier this afternoon that 59,000 more women in Scotland. It is one of a number of debates relating are now in the workplace than at the time of the 2010 specifically to Scotland that have been held recently in general election. both Westminster Hall and the main Chamber, and such debates are welcome. Following on from some of Ann McKechin: Female unemployment in Scotland the hon. Lady’s remarks, I congratulate Johann Lamont has increased by 25% in the last quarter, so would the on becoming the leader of the Scottish Labour party, right hon. Gentleman not acknowledge, given the statistics which relates to the hon. Lady’s arguments. Moreover, that he has just quoted, that there needs to be a much at the end of last year, my colleague Ruth Davidson more thorough analysis, so that we can get to the root became the leader of the Scottish Conservative party, of the reason why there has been such a rapid increase, so the political process in Scotland has some female whether that is likely to be a permanent shift in the job leadership. I am sure that both ladies will bring significant market and what sectors will be particularly affected? influence to bear in the months ahead. The fight against unemployment is a priority for the David Mundell: I agree with the hon. Lady that UK Government. We are committed to getting Scots analysis is important to getting to a full understanding off benefits and into the workplace. Work remains the of what the situation is. I assure her that the Government best and most sustainable route out of poverty. The UK are not complacent in that regard. Government have measures in place to support all claimants to find work. These measures are not gender The Government also have an ambitious agenda to specific. We want women and men to get the job reform the benefit system and to support those who are opportunities that they need. able to go back into work. The increase in female jobseeker’s allowance claimants in Scotland can be partially Nevertheless, this challenge must be set against the attributed to the change in the rules for lone parents. context of the UK recovering from the biggest financial Most lone parents with a youngest child aged seven or crisis for generations and the deepest recession of almost over are no longer entitled to income support purely on all major economies. The uncertainty and instability in the grounds of being a lone parent. They must now the eurozone area, where unemployment is higher than claim jobseeker’s allowance or employment and support in the UK, continue to have a chilling effect on our allowance or find work. There are plans to apply that economy. rule to lone parents with a youngest child aged five or Despite the difficult environment, we are still trying over from this year. Our policies for lone parents strike to help women. Many of the 90,000 Scots who have a balance between the right to benefit to support the been lifted out of tax at the lowest end are women. The family and wider responsibilities to support themselves measures that we are taking on additional child care and lift their children out of poverty when that is are helping women south of the border, with Barnett feasible. 333WH Female Employment (Scotland)18 JANUARY 2012 Female Employment (Scotland) 334WH

We also understand the importance of flexible working. The Work programme is a key part of our reforms It is the Government’s intention that the law will better and, as the hon. Member for Glasgow North knows, it support families juggling work and life, and the businesses went live in June. We are also helping to break down the that employ them. We are currently developing our barriers to employment through the flexible support proposals for extending flexible working legislation and fund, which can assist with child care expenses, travel will be consulting with stakeholders on how best to costs and clothing costs. It also targets support to implement them. particular groups of claimants. The DWP is looking at bids for grant funding from bodies that specifically Ann McKechin: The right hon. Gentleman mentioned support lone parents and women with special needs, the fact that more lone parents are coming into the job such as mental health issues. market because of changes to regulations. Will he tell us Across Scotland, there is huge concern about youth what dialogue he has had with the Scottish Government unemployment and, obviously, a significant number of about the fact that, in Scotland, child care costs are so the people affected by that are female. Youthunemployment high? Proper, affordable child care is absolutely vital if has been rising since 2004. people, particularly those on lower incomes, are to get back into employment. Dr Whiteford: Does the Minister agree that the Scottish Government’s commitment to ensuring that every young David Mundell: The Secretary of State and I have had person in Scotland between the age of 16 and 19 has an ongoing discussions with the Scottish Government on apprenticeship, college or university place or training employment and wider economic issues and on how we opportunity is a good thing and that it is the right can dovetail our policies to ensure that they work in the direction to be moving in to tackle youth unemployment? best way for people in Scotland. The hon. Lady clearly highlights a significant issue, which I will take up again David Mundell: I can certainly assure the hon. Lady with the Scottish Government the next time I have the that I accept that many things the Scottish Government opportunity to do so. I appreciate the importance of the do are good. What I do not accept is the often presented issue that she is raising. premise that, if the Scottish Government do something, it is a good thing, and if the UK Government do The UK Government recognise the issue of child something, it is a bad thing. We need to work together, care and are implementing measures geared to helping particularly on issues such as youth unemployment. more women into work. The hon. Lady will be aware that, following the autumn statement, the Scottish As I said, youth unemployment has been rising since Government will receive more than £500 million in 2004 and is an issue on which we all need to take an addition to the sums that they had anticipated they interest. That is why I am particularly pleased that John would receive. In relation to that funding, the Scottish Swinney is going to join the Secretary of State and me Government will have the opportunity to invest more in at a national convention to consider the issue of youth child care and skills development. unemployment, with all other relevant stakeholders from throughout Scotland. In terms of identifying issues Looking forward, the integration of child care into and concerns, we have undertaken a number of very universal credit when it is introduced in 2013 will protect successful events in Irvine, Hawick and Falkirk to work initiatives and ensure that support is focused on date, and a national event will take place in Dundee in low-earning families. As I have said, we know how March. important child care is in helping mothers into work. Child care costs will be supported through an additional We have also announced the youth contract, which element in the universal credit. Support for the costs of will bring an extra £1 billion of extra investment into child care within the universal credit will be made supporting the young unemployed, whether through available to all lone parents and couples, where both wage incentives, additional work experience and members are at work, regardless of the number of opportunities or money to the Scottish Government. hours they work. On average, families with children are There will also be the offer of a work experience place more likely to have a higher than a lower entitlement for every 18 to 24-year-old who wants one before they under the universal credit. enter the Work programme. More broadly, the Department for Work and Pensions The UK Government cannot solve the employment is taking a number of measures to assist all claimants challenges facing Scotland alone. The Scottish Government into work. The advisory support in job centres across have many policy levers, with important responsibilities Scotland is tailored and personalised to the individual’s for education, skills, business tax and enterprise, which needs. Claimants of both genders have access to a range can be used to improve the employment situation. Scotland’s of “Get Britain Working” initiatives, including work two Governments must work together to achieve this. clubs, enterprise clubs, the work together scheme, work Question put and agreed to. experience, new enterprise allowance and sector-based work academies. Similarly, work trials allow employers 5.9 pm and employees the chance to try out employment Sitting adjourned. opportunities.

39WS Written Ministerial Statements18 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 40WS

“This is exactly the kind of measure I called for in all my Written Ministerial meetings with Burmese Government leaders last week. So is this week’s much needed ceasefire in the conflict with the Karen people. I hope these positive steps will contribute to greater Statements democratic participation in the upcoming parliamentary by-elections”. Speaking on 12 January, the Foreign Secretary welcomed Wednesday 18 January 2012 the ceasefire between the Burmese Government and Karen National Union: “I welcome the reports that the Burmese Government and Karen National Union have signed a ceasefire after 63 years of fighting. This is good news for the people of Burma. It has been FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE a long-standing goal of the international community to see a ceasefire, and indeed it was one of the key issues on which I urged the Burmese Government to make progress during my visit last Foreign Affairs Council: 23 January - General Affairs week when I also met with Karen representatives. There is still a Council: 27 January long way to go fully to rebuild trust between the parties after so many years of conflict, but this is an important step in the right direction”. The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): My MEPP right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Ministers are likely to receive a report from Baroness Commonwealth Affairs and I will attend the Foreign Ashton on the talks in Amman between Israeli and Affairs Council on 23 January. I will also attend the Palestinian negotiators, which Quartet representatives General Affairs Council on 27 January. also attended. FOREIGN AFFAIRS COUNCIL We also hope to agree conclusions which welcome the The High Representative of the European Union for direct talks facilitated by the Jordanians as part of the Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Baroness Ashton Quartet process; encourage both parties to present of Upholland, will chair the Foreign Affairs Council on comprehensive proposals on territory and security as 23 January. called for in the Quartet statement; and urge both Iran parties to refrain from actions which might damage the As agreed at the December 2011 FAC, Ministers prospects of a two-state solution. should be presented with a package to expand and Egypt strengthen EU sanctions against Iran, including an oil We expect discussions to focus on the completion of embargo and further restrictions on finance, petrochemicals elections to the lower House and the first sitting due on and gold. If agreed, these measures will reflect the 23 January. We will urge EU partners to maintain a degree of EU concern about the continued development high-level of ambition on the EU offer, and to ensure of the Iran’s nuclear programme. These robust measures that it is communicated effectively; and to push the aim to reduce Iran’s ability to fund its nuclear programme Egyptians on the central role that civil society has to and to encourage it to resume serious and meaningful play in the transition process. Although there are unlikely negotiations. to be conclusions at this FAC, we expect there to be Syria some in February reporting on progress on the transition. In response to the continuing repression, we are Sudan/South Sudan pushing to agree strong conclusions on Syria and a further round of EU sanctions. The UK has proposed The discussion is likely to focus on the unresolved an additional list of 21 military and security officials we issues and tension between the two countries following believe are responsible for the violence against civilians. secession of South Sudan in July 2011. Additionally, We are also working with partners to agree further Ministers may review the ongoing conflicts and lack of sanctions at the February FAC. humanitarian access in Southern Kordofan, Blue Nile, Abyei and Darfur, and the recent violence in Jonglei, Burma South Sudan. We expect the adoption of the first formal Ministers will discuss recent developments in Burma, conclusions since South Sudan’s secession, which we including the release last week of a significant number believe should mark the progress that secession represents, of political prisoners, and how the EU can best support while setting out the EU’s concern at the ongoing the Burmese Government in continuing on their path of conflict, human rights abuses and weak governance in reform. We expect conclusions to be adopted welcoming both countries. the recent positive developments; and making it clear that the EU will respond substantively if further progress Serbia/Kosovo is made in key areas, including free and fair by-elections Baroness Ashton is expected to brief Ministers on on 1 April, and further steps towards resolving the progress in the EU-facilitated dialogue between Serbia ethnic conflict. and Kosovo. A decision on Serbia’s EU candidate status On 13 December the Foreign Secretary said: will be taken at the February GAC; so any ensuing discussion at this FAC will probably focus on Serbian “I am delighted to hear that a significant number of political prisoners in Burma have today been released, including 88 Generation progress towards meeting the necessary conditions on and ethnic leaders”. Kosovo as specified by the December European Council. “The release of all political prisoners is a long-standing demand We welcome the progress made over the Christmas of the international community and I warmly welcome these period, with Serbia and Kosovo implementing the dialogue releases as a further demonstration of the Burmese Government’s agreement on freedom of movement. But we believe commitment to reform”. there is still more for Serbia to do to meet fully the 41WS Written Ministerial Statements18 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 42WS

European Council’s requirements before the February The second substantive item is the multi-annual financial GAC, particularly on Kosovan representation in regional framework, where there will be a stock-take of progress fora. made in technical working groups. The Danish presidency Belarus will explain how they plan to organise this negotiation under their chairmanship. We expect Ministers to agree an expansion of the designation criteria for exiting EU sanctions against There will also be an update on recent decisions Belarus. Formal conclusions may also be agreed, and taken by the European Parliament and a presentation Ministers may discuss the political and human rights of the Danish presidency’s work plan. situation in Belarus. Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP)/Horn of Africa Although CSDP/Horn of Africa is not a formal HOME DEPARTMENT agenda item, Ministers may be asked to agree conclusions reaffirming their commitment to launch the regional maritime capacity building (RMCB) mission to the Horn of Africa—as agreed by Ministers at the FAC on Criminal Records Certificates: Taxi Drivers 1 December. The mission will help to strengthen the counter piracy efforts of local actors. We are keen to see the RMCB make a tangible difference on the ground, and to ensure that the EU Operations Centre best The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the co-ordinates military support to this predominantly Home Department (Lynne Featherstone): The Government civilian mission and ensures coherence with existing EU have received representations from a number of missions in the region. organisations concerning the appropriate level of criminal Religious Freedom records checks for licensed taxi and public hire vehicle drivers. At present the legal entitlement for many drivers Although not a formal agenda item, we expect Italy is for a standard level criminal records check, although to raise freedom of religion following recent violence the practice has grown up of applying for enhanced against places of worship in Nigeria. On 25 December, level checks across the sector. These checks include any the Foreign Secretary said: relevant local police information, in addition to a record “I condemn today’s bomb attacks in or near churches in of previous criminal convictions, cautions and warnings. Nigeria. These are cowardly attacks on families gathered in peace and prayer to celebrate a day which symbolises harmony and Having carefully considered these representations, goodwill towards others. I offer my condolences to the bereaved and consulted representatives of the sector, we have and injured”. decided that: GENERAL AFFAIRS COUNCIL (GAC) All taxi and private hire drivers should be entitled to enhanced The GAC will be chaired by the new Danish EU criminal records checks; and presidency. Licensing authorities will additionally be entitled to check whether any applicant is barred from work with children or Before the official programme of the General Affairs vulnerable adults under the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Council, Herman van Rompuy will present, over breakfast, Act 2006. the latest situation with the intergovernmental treaty. Taking account of the fact that many drivers are There are two main items on the GAC agenda in self-employed, criminal records applications may be January. The first is the European Council: follow-up to made through the appropriate licensing authority. The the December Council and preparation for January’s decision on whether to grant a licence will remain a informal Council on growth the following week matter for the licensing authority. (30 January). The conclusions of the December European Council This change clarifies the law and regularises practice meeting can be found at: which has grown up over many years in the taxi sector. http://www.european-council.europa.eu/council- Changes will be made by secondary legislation as meetings/conclusions.aspx. soon as practicable. 5P Petitions18 JANUARY 2012 Petitions 6P

case-law shows that this is an increasing issue; declares Petition that the Petitioners believe that the present definition is not a fair or equal one under the Equality Act 2010 and Wednesday 18 January 2012 declares that in light of the drafting of the new National Planning Policy Framework and the new Planning Policy Statement, this is an ideal time to look at this issue. PRESENTED PETITION The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor Commons urges the Secretary of State for Communities Definition of Gypsy Status and Local Government, together with the Equalities Minister, to urgently discuss the definition of “Gypsy” The Petition of supporters of the National Federation status for the purposes of planning law with, among of Gypsy Liaison Groups, others, representatives of Romany Gypsies and English, Declares that the Petitioners believe that the present Scots, Welsh and Irish Travellers. definition of “Gypsy Status” in the context of planning And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Rory law puts Gypsy women who act as carers for their Stewart .] family or who are widowed or divorced in an unequal position; declares that the Petitioners believe that recent [P000997]

809W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 810W

(3) what research his Department has commissioned Written Answers to to measure the subjective well-being of children by local area. [90150] Questions Andrew Stunell: The Department does not currently use any methods to measure the impacts of its decisions Wednesday 18 January 2012 on the subjective well-being of children, and it has not commissioned any research to measure the subjective well-being of children by local area. However, we are engaging with the Office for National Statistics’ work to COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT develop well-being measures for children and young people as part of the overall measuring National Well-being Asylum Programme. The Department will be engaging with local authorities on how best to make available sub-national Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for well-being data and to consider how local authorities Communities and Local Government (1) what discussions and others could make best use of it. he has had with the Secretary of State for the Home Department on the integration of refugees in the UK; [89425] Electrical Safety: Housing (2) what steps his Department is taking to promote the effective integration of refugees in the UK; [89426] Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for (3) what plans he has to monitor the integration of Communities and Local Government how many people refugees in the UK; [89427] were (a) killed and (b) seriously injured in circumstances (4) what plans his Department has to develop a attributable to unsafe electrical fittings in (i) privately strategy for refugee integration in the UK. [89428] rented housing and (ii) council housing in each of the last four years. [88745] Andrew Stunell: The Government plan to publish a document setting out its approach to integration shortly. Andrew Stunell: The Department does not hold the The Governments’ role is to create the conditions which specific data requested on deaths and injuries due to enable integration to happen in all places and with all unsafe electrical fittings. However, we are currently communities. But integration including for refugees is analysing the electrical accident statistics that are available essentially a local issue led by public and private sector as part of our review of Part P of the Building Regulations organisations, voluntary and community groups, social (Electrical safety in dwellings) and will be publishing enterprises and other local organisations. As such integration the results in due course. activity should in the main be designed, delivered and monitored locally. Fire Services: Standards As a result of the need to make significant savings across the UK Border Agency, in line with the Government’s strategy to reduce the deficit, it is no John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for longer possible for the UK Border Agency to fund a Communities and Local Government what the average refugee integration service. In response to concerns response time was for a fire appliance to attend (a) a about the resultant impact on refugees, the UK Border dwelling fire with persons involved, (b) a dwelling fire Agency established a cross sector working group in with no persons involved, (c) a fire in a non-dwelling April 2011. The group’s aim is to identify cost neutral building, (d) a road vehicle fire and (e) an outdoor fire activities that will help address the integration needs of in each (i) region, (ii) fire service family group and (iii) refugees. In the meantime, individuals granted refugee local authority in each of the last three years. [R] status have full entitlement to access public funds and [90016] services and the UK Border Agency is committed to providing documentation that helps facilitate access to Robert Neill: These data have been placed in the these entitlements. Library of the House. Latest response time data are The Secretary of State for Communities and Local derived from the Incident Recording System which has Government, the right hon. Member for Brentwood been in use nationwide since April 2009, while response and Ongar (Mr Pickles), has discussed the Government’s times up to 2008 are as provided previously. approach to integration with colleagues on a number of occasions. Housing: Regulation Children Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (1) what regulations Communities and Local Government (1) what methods are in place to protect (a) freeholders, (b) leaseholders his Department uses to measure the effects of its and (c) tenants in respect of estate management companies decisions on the subjective well-being of children; appointed by developers of residential housing estates; [90147] [89869] (2) whether he is taking steps to encourage local (2) what rules or regulations govern the fees that can authorities to use children’s subjective well-being as a be charged by estate management companies to (a) key outcome; [90148] freeholders, (b) leaseholders and (c) tenants. [89873] 811W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 812W

Grant Shapps: The rules and regulations applying to Youth Unemployment freeholders (homeowners), leaseholders and tenants (in either the private or the public sector) on an estate vary 12. Mr David: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales according to the particular housing tenure in which what estimate she has made of the level of youth they live. unemployment in Wales over the next six months. The fees that freeholders must pay—and arrangements [89243] for the upkeep of shared facilities, and the provision of additional services—will depend on the terms of the Mr David Jones: Today’s youth unemployment figures obligations between the freeholders of the individual in Wales clearly illustrate the need for us to work properties and the person or company responsible for alongside the Welsh Government to ensure that young providing the services. These obligations may take various people are fully prepared to enter the labour market. forms and are generally set out on the land register or in the title deeds. Owners of freehold properties can enforce Police Numbers their rights under such obligations, including in relation to service charges and estate rent charges, through the 13. Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for courts if necessary. Wales what estimate she has made of police numbers in Leaseholders have a wide range of rights and protections Wales between 2012 and 2015. [89244] which are set out in primary and secondary legislation, and are enforceable through a Leasehold Valuation Mr David Jones: This information is not collected Tribunal. The fees and charges which a leaseholder centrally. It is a matter for the chief constable and the must pay will be governed by their individual lease. police authority in each force to determine the police When accounting for service charges and other fees numbers that are deployed within the available resource. paid by leaseholders, estate managers (and landlords) should comply with the law and best practice, including Violent Crime that set out in the two Codes of Practice approved by the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government. 14. Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what steps the Government are taking to tackle Any fees and charges to be paid by tenants (in the violent crime in Wales; and if she will make a statement. private and social sectors) will depend, in the first instance, on the terms of their individual tenancy agreement. [89246] In the private sector, service charges are normally paid Mr David Jones: The Government are committed to by landlords rather than tenants. However, where— reducing and preventing crime to ensure that people exceptionally—private sector tenants do pay variable feel safe in their homes and communities. service charges, these can be challenged at a Leasehold Valuation Tribunal. Local Government Finance: Waste Disposal ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many local Air Pollution: Heathrow Airport authorities have applied for funds for weekly bin collections in each (a) region and (b) local authority area to date. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for [90347] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress her Department has made on reducing levels of emissions Robert Neill: Further to the announcement by the of oxides of nitrogen at Heathrow. [89554] Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my right hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Richard Benyon: In September 2011, the UK submitted Ongar (Mr Pickles), during party conference recess in updated air quality plans to the European Commission September, we will be publishing a prospectus shortly that set out how EU limits for nitrogen dioxide (NO2) inviting bids for funding from the Weekly Collections will be met as soon as possible. The plan for Greater Support Scheme. London sets out current and planned actions for achieving compliance with the NO2 limits around Heathrow, and can be viewed on the UK air website: WALES http://uk-air.defra.gov.uk Fuel Rebate Heathrow Airport Ltd has published an air quality strategy for Heathrow airport for 2011 to 2020. A copy of this strategy is available from Heathrow Airport Ltd 11. Albert Owen: To ask the Secretary of State for or online: Wales what recent discussions she has had with (a) Cabinet colleagues and (b) others on a fuel rebate for www.heathrowairwatch.org.uk remote areas of Wales. [89242] The UK plans package includes many measures to help reduce emissions of oxides of nitrogen (NOx). The Mr David Jones: This is a pilot scheme for remote latest UK emissions data, published in December 2011, islands only. Pump prices in these areas are particularly show that total UK emissions of NOx continued to fall high when compared with the mainland. The Government in 2010. Total emissions are now within the UK’s will need to assess the results of this pilot first, but national emission ceiling for NOx, which is set under beyond this nothing has been ruled in or out. the EU National Emission Ceilings Directive (2001/81/EC). 813W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 814W

Departmental Catering The UK also enjoys access to diverse sources of supply from the EU and other countries, which provides Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State additional resilience in the event of any disruptions to for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps avoid potential food shortages. the food and catering services in (a) her Department Recreation Spaces and (b) public bodies for which she is responsible are taking to ensure the country of origin of foods are Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for labelled on its menus and display boards. [85847] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate Mr Paice: Government Buying Standards for Food she has made of the number of applications to register and Catering were introduced for the first time in June new greens in (a) Chatham and Aylesford constituency, last year. These standards include the overarching (b) Medway unitary authority, (c) Tonbridge and Malling commitment that, in line with the industry principles on borough council and (d) Kent in each of the last five country of origin information suppliers should be able years for which figures are available. [90340] to indicate the origin of the meat, meat products and dairy products either on the menu or accompanying Richard Benyon: Top-tier local authorities (i.e. counties literature, or at least when the information is requested and unitaries) are responsible for determining applications by the consumer. These standards are mandatory for to register new town and village greens under section 15 central Government and take-up is being encouraged of the Commons Act 2005. There is no requirement to across the public sector. report data on greens registration applications to DEFRA. A survey of commons registration authorities was DEFRA’s catering contract with Eurest covers core conducted in October 2011 and figures are available for DEFRA, the Rural Payments Agency, the Marine the total number of applications received by Kent county Management Organisation, the Food and Environment council. Research Agency, the Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency, Natural England, the Centre for Kent Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science, and Number the Veterinary Medicines Directorate. Country of origin 2007 5 information is already displayed on menus in core DEFRA 2008 7 sites and this is being rolled out throughout the sites 2009 10 covered by this contract. 2010 8 The Environment Agency have a separate catering 2011 5 contract to DEFRA. Currently they do not display the country of origin on menus and display boards, however No figures are available for Chatham and Aylesford the caterers purchase meat, dairy and bread from local constituency, Medway council or Tonbridge and Mailing suppliers, within a 50 mile radius of each site. Where borough council. available the catering suppliers also buy locally produced Sewers: Planning vegetables and fruit.

Departmental Debt Collection David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Communities Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for and Local Government on the automatic inclusion of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many times water and sewerage companies as statutory consultees her Department has used the services of debt recovery when planning applications are submitted for developers companies since May 2010; which companies were used; of 10 or more properties. [89201] and if she will make a statement. [88359] Richard Benyon: DEFRA Ministers and officials have Richard Benyon: The core Department does not use been in regular discussion with their counterparts in the external debt recovery companies as it operates an Department of Communities and Local Government in-house process for managing debt recovery. over reform of planning and the importance of ensuring that the necessary infrastructure is secured to support Food Supply development. Under the proposals for reform of planning all planning applications should be considered in the Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for light of the local plan. Water and sewerage companies, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether Government as a body affected by the local plan, should be consulted food reserves are kept (a) on the Isle of Wight, (b) in on local plans while they are being drawn up; they are England and (c) in the UK for emergencies. [89802] also able to comment on them to the Planning Inspectorate during the validation process. It is for local authorities Mr Paice: The Government do not hold reserve to ensure that their local plans are fit for purpose and stocks of food. The UK is well prepared for unforeseen that the necessary infrastructure is available where situations, such disruptions due to extreme weather, fuel development is likely to take place. shortages, pandemic flu etc and has a highly effective food supply chain, providing wide consumer choice. Waste Policy Review The food retailers have robust and resilient business continuity plans to deal with any threat of disruption Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for and DEFRA works with all parts of the industry to Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to ensure that Government support is provided. the answer of 28 November 2011, Official Report, 815W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 816W column 658W, on the Waste Policy Review, and with eating assessment or accreditation scheme, the guidance reference to paragraph 101 of the review, what assessment available from such schemes is regularly used to inform she has made of the accuracy of the analysis on the and educate chefs in the design and development of costs and benefits of a UK deposit system. [89892] menus and recipes served throughout the parliamentary estate. In the cafeterias, used by many staff and MPs Richard Benyon: On 16 December 2011, DEFRA daily for their main meal, information is provided about published a consultation on targets for the Producer the most healthy menu options available through the Responsibility Obligations (Packaging Waste) Regulations use of a ’traffic light’ marking scheme on printed and 2007. The consultation was accompanied by an impact on-line menus. Fish and vegetarian dishes feature daily assessment which includes a full economic assessment on each cafeteria menu. A very high percentage of of the costs and benefits of introducing a bottle deposit cooked meals served in the cafeterias is prepared daily scheme in the UK. DEFRA is now seeking views on the from fresh ingredients, and fresh fruits, salads, low-fat robustness of its analysis. dairy produce and high fibre breads and cereals are always available. Meals served in the dining rooms are Water: Consumption similarly prepared from fresh ingredients and include fish and vegetarian options. Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether her Newspaper Press Department monitors the water consumption rates of individual water companies; and if she will make a John Mann: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, statement. [87129] Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Commons Commission, how many newspapers were Richard Benyon: The data for the average water ordered other than for the Members’ Library in 2011. consumption in litres per person, per day for 2010-11 [88862] for each water company, can be found on page 80 of the recently published “Water White Paper” in figure xi. An John Thurso: Excluding the Members’ Library, the electronic copy can be found online on DEFRA’s website House ordered 71,118 copies of newspapers in 2011 at: (figures for December 2011 include estimates where http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/quality/water/ invoices have not yet been received). Free copies of the legislation/whitepaper/ Evening Standard were also provided on the estate. Orders for newspapers in 2012 onwards will be Written Questions: Government Responses significantly lower than the 2011 total in line with savings commitments and environmental targets. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she plans to answer question 77607, on applications from employees to run services, tabled on 26 October 2011 for answer on HOME DEPARTMENT 31 October 2011; and if she will make a statement. [87679] Coroners

Richard Benyon: The answer to this question was Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for the published on 20 December 2011, Official Report, column Home Department (1) for how many of the deaths 1104W. The delay was due to administrative errors. requiring an inquest which took place between 1 January 2005 and 31 December 2008 in each short-listed ICD10- code grouping which accounted for 500 or more of the cases the waiting time between date of death and date HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION of death registration was longer than (a) 183 days and (b) 365 days; [90368] Catering (2) for how many of the deaths requiring an inquest which took place between 1 January 2005 and 31 December Mrs Hodgson: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, 2008 in each ICD-10 chapter which accounted for 1,000 Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of or more of the deaths, the waiting time between date of Commons Commission, what assessment the House death and date of death registration was longer than of Commons Commission has made of the availability (a) 183 days and (b) 365 days; [90369] of healthy food options in (a) the Jubilee Café and (b) all food outlets on the Parliamentary Estate. [89286] (3) what the underlying cause of death according to (a) ICD-10 chapter and (b) short-listed ICD10-code John Thurso: The Jubilee Café provides a snack outlet grouping was of coroner-certified deaths which took primarily for the use of visitors to the Palace of Westminster. place between 1 January 2005 and 31 December 2008; As such, the menu is designed with that use in mind. [90370] Although the lack of a kitchen limits the menu in the (4) for how many deaths registered in England and Jubilee Café, salads and fresh fruit are available as Wales which took place between 1 January 2005 and alternatives to sandwiches and cakes or other high-sugar 31 December 2008 (a) were certified by a coroner and snacks. (b) an inquest was held; [90371] The House of Commons catering service ensures that (5) how many deaths were registered in England and healthy foods are available in all its food outlets. Although Wales with a date of death between 1 January 2005 and it does not specifically belong to any formal healthy 31 December 2008. [90372] 817W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 818W

Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Table 1: Number of deaths for which an inquest was held where time Cabinet Office. between registration and date of death is greater than 183 or 365 days, by ICD-10 chapter, underlying cause of death, England and Wales, The information requested falls within the responsibility 2005-081,2,3,4 of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority Deaths to reply. Over Over Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated January 2012: 183 365 days days As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Questions asking: Chapter Endocrine, nutritional and metabolic 413 132 1. How many of the deaths requiring an inquest which took IV diseases place between 1 January 2005 and 31 December 2008 in each Chapter Diseases of the circulatory system 3,591 964 short-listed ICD10-code grouping which accounted for 500 or IX more of the cases the waiting time between date of death and date Chapter Mental and behavioural disorders 1,670 370 of death registration was longer than (a) 183 days and (b) 365 V days. (90368) Chapter Diseases of the nervous system 753 212 2. How many of the deaths requiring an inquest which took VI place between 1 January 2005 and 31 December 2008 in each ICD-10 chapter which accounted for 1,000 or more of the deaths, Chapter Diseases of the respiratory system 1,729 399 the waiting time between date of death and date of registration X was longer than (a) 183 days and (b) 365 days. (90369) Chapter Diseases of the digestive system 1,570 471 3. What the underlying cause of death according to (a) ICD-10 XI chapter and (b) short-listed ICD-10 code grouping was of coroner- Chapter Diseases of the musculoskeletal 513 162 certified deaths which took place between 1 January 2005 and 31 XIII system and connective tissue December 2008. (90370) Chapter Symptoms, signs and abnormal 1,771 418 4. For how many deaths registered in England and Wales XVIII clinical and laboratory findings, which took place between 1 January 2005 and 31 December 2008 not elsewhere classified (a) were certified by a coroner and (b) an inquest was held. Chapter External causes of morbidity and 24,080 6,157 (90371) XX mortality 5. How many deaths were registered in England and Wales Total 40,105 10,208 with a date of death between 1 January 2005 and 31 December 1 2008. (90372) Figures are for deaths occurring between 2005 and 2008 and include deaths of non-residents. In response to Question 1 (a, b) and Question 3 (b) above, we 2 Figures are presented for ICD-10 chapters which accounted for are unable to provide figures for the number of deaths certified by more than 1,000 deaths a coroner, or for which an inquest was held, broken down by 3 The day and/or date of death is not available for 43 deaths for which short-listed ICD-10 code. This information is not readily available an inquest was held. These have been excluded from this table. and could only be obtained at a disproportionate cost. 4 Deaths can only be registered once an inquest has taken place. If the In response to Question 2, Table 1 provides the number of inquest is adjourned the death may be registered and a temporary code for underlying cause of death may be given. Deaths given deaths for which an inquest was held where the waiting time temporary codes are included in Chapter XX. between date of death and date of death registration was longer Source: than (a) 183 and (b) 365 days, in England and Wales, for deaths Office for National Statistics that occurred between 1 January 2005 and 31 December 2008. This is broken down by each ICD-10 chapter which accounted for Table 2: Number of deaths certified by a coroner, by ICD-10 chapter, 1,2,3 1,000 or more of the deaths. underlying cause of death, England and Wales, 2005-08 In response to Question 3 (a), Table 2 provides the number of Deaths coroner-certified deaths grouped by the underlying cause of death Chapter Certain infectious and parasitic diseases 3,123 according to ICD-10 chapter, that occurred in England and I Wales, between 1 January 2005 and 31 December 2008. Chapter Neoplasms 32,516 Trusted Statistics - Understanding the UK II In response to Questions 4 (a, b) and 5, Table 3 provides (i) the Chapter Diseases of the blood and blood-forming organs 567 number of deaths registered, (ii) the number of deaths certified by III and certain disorders involving the immune a coroner and (iii) the number of deaths for which an inquest was mechanism held, in England and Wales, for deaths that occurred between 1 Chapter Endocrine, nutritional and metabolic diseases 3,509 January 2005 and 31 December 2008. IV The number of deaths registered in England and Wales each Chapter Mental and behavioural disorders 6,083 year by sex, age, cause, marital status and place of death are V published annually and are available here: Chapter Diseases of the nervous system 5,863 VI www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/all- releases.html?definition=tcm%3A77-27475 Chapter Diseases of the eye and adnexa 6 VII Table 1: Number of deaths for which an inquest was held where time Chapter Diseases of the ear and mastoid process 22 between registration and date of death is greater than 183 or 365 days, VIII by ICD-10 chapter, underlying cause of death, England and Wales, 2005-081,2,3,4 Chapter Diseases of the circulatory system 237,392 IX Deaths Chapter Diseases of the respiratory system 43,832 Over Over X 183 365 days days Chapter Diseases of the digestive system 32,928 XI Chapter Certain infectious and parasitic 412 116 Chapter Diseases of the skin and subcutanaeous tissue 611 I diseases XII Chapter Neoplasms 3,603 807 Chapter Diseases of the musculoskeletal system and 3,678 II XIII connective tissue 819W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 820W

Table 2: Number of deaths certified by a coroner, by ICD-10 chapter, Entry Clearances: Married People underlying cause of death, England and Wales, 2005-081,2,3 Deaths Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for the Chapter Diseases of the genitourinary system 3,550 Home Department pursuant to the answer of 18 January XIV 2011, Official Report, column 673W,on sham marriages, Chapter Pregnancy, childbirth and the puerperium 160 how many of the 81 non-European nationals granted XV leave to remain have been (a) traced and (b) had their Chapter Certain conditions originating in the perinatal 92 leave revoked; and what the outcome has been of the XVI period investigation of the remaining 298 cases examined under Chapter Congenital malformations, deformations and 1,483 Operation Gomozia. [89956] XVII chromosomal abnormalities Chapter Symptoms, signs and abnormal clinical and 6,144 Damian Green: The latest management information XVIII laboratory findings, not elsewhere classified from Operation Gomozia shows that the number of Chapter External causes of morbidity and mortality 59,620 non-European nationals who were granted leave to XX remain as a result of marriages at the Church St. Peter None Neonatal deaths 1,113 and St Paul in St. Leonard’s, Sussex has increased from 1 Figures are for deaths occurring between 2005 and 2008and include 81 to 105. Of these, 32 have had their leave revoked and deaths of non-residents. are being actively traced by the UK Border Agency. A 2 No underlying cause of death can be determined from the death further 53 of the marriages have been deemed genuine, certificate used to register neonatal deaths (deaths under 28 days). 3 Deaths can only be registered once an inquest has taken place. If the either by the UK Border Agency or an independent inquest is adjourned the death may be registered and a temporary tribunal. A further 20 of those granted leave are still code for underlying cause of death may be given. Deaths given under investigation. temporary codes are included in Chapter XX. An additional 157 applications for leave to remain Source: Office for National Statistics from non-European nationals under Operation Gomozia

1,2 have been refused by the UK Border Agency. These Table 3: Number of deaths, England and Wales, 2005-08 individuals are also being actively traced. Of these, nine Deaths non-European nationals have been removed from the Inquest held 113,469 United Kingdom. The remaining cases are still being Certified by coroner 442,292 investigated or have been granted leave under another Deaths registered 2,033,714 category. 1 Figures are for deaths occurring between 2005 and 2008 and include Khat deaths of non-residents. 2 Coroner-certified deaths include cases where an inquest and/or post mortem is held and cases where the death is certified without an Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for the inquest. Home Department what assessment her Department Source: has made of the amount of khat purchased for Office for National Statistics extraction of cathine and cathinone. [89995] Cybercrime: Prosecutions Damian Green: No formal assessment has been made by the Home Office on the amount of khat purchased Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for the for the extraction of its active ingredients, cathine and Home Department whether she has recently had discussions cathinone. with the Crown Prosecution Service on steps to improve the prosecution of offences under section 127 of the North Yorkshire Police Communications Act 2003. [90220] Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Nick Herbert [holding answer 17 January 2012]: No, Home Department how many officers in the North the Home Secretary has had no such discussions recently. Yorkshire Police were working on front-line duties on (a) 31 March 2010 and (b) 31 March 2011; and how Departmental Manpower many she expects to be doing so on 31 March (i) 2012, (ii) 2013 and (iii) 2014. [69847] Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for the Nick Herbert: The available information shows the Home Department how many frontline UK Border number of officers in North Yorkshire police working Agency personnel will be on duty at UK borders between on frontline duties on 31 March 2010 and 31 March 2011. 23 December 2011 and 5 January 2012. [87809] Decisions about the size and deployment of the police workforce are a matter for chief constables to take Damian Green: The UK Border Agency undertook locally in conjunction with their police authority and, careful planning for the deployment of resources between from November 2012, their elected Police and Crime 23 December 2011 and 5 January 2012. The plan was Commissioners (PCCs); therefore estimates for the number developed using data from previous years and data of police officers on frontline duties for 2011-12, 2012-13 provided by port operators. The UK Border Agency and 2013-14 are not available centrally. deployed the appropriate level of resources on the Number of police officers in North Yorkshire police force working on information provided to manage the volumes of traffic front-line duties, as at 31 March 2010 and as at March 20111,2 over this period and responded to adverse weather 2010 2011 conditions by redeploying to the areas of greatest need. We are unable to provide an overall figure for deployment Frontline 1,306 1,283 at the border as sourcing this information would incur As a proportion of the total number 88 88 disproportionate cost. of officers (percentage) 821W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 822W

1 This table contains full-time equivalent figures that have been Police Stations: Opening Hours rounded to the nearest whole number. 2 Front-line duties accords with definition used in HMIC’s ″Demanding Times″ report: ″The police front-line comprises those who are in Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the everyday contact with the public and who directly intervene to keep Home Department what assessment she has made of people safe and enforce the law″. The report also shows the functions the effects of (a) police station closures and (b) which are front-line duties, in some cases roles cut across more than one category, and where this is the case the percentage split is shown. changes to the opening hours of police stations since This report can be found from the following link: May 2010. [90002] http://www.hmic.gov.uk/media/demanding-times-062011.pdf Source: Nick Herbert: Decisions about the most effective use Home Office using data received from police forces via the Annual of available resources, including the number and operating Data Requirement ADR601 hours of police stations, are a matter for the chief The functions included are shown in the following constable and the police authority to take locally. table. Functions (front-line duties) Police: Misconduct Percentage

Air 100 Ben Gummer: To ask the Secretary of State for the Asset confiscation 80 Home Department what her policy is on whether Burglary 80 police officers found to have tampered with records of Child/Sex/Domestic/Missing 100 evidence should retain their pension rights. [89776] Persons CID 70 Nick Herbert: A police authority or elected local CID—Specialist Crime Unit 70 policing body can apply to have part of a police pension Community Safety/Relations 100 forfeited where an officer is convicted of an offence, Police Standards Unit 50 committed in connection with their service as a member (complaints about the police) of a police force, which is either gravely injurious to the Control Room {Call Handlers) 60 interests of the State or liable to lead to a serious loss of Custody 100 confidence in the public service. Dogs 100 Drugs 80 Ben Gummer: To ask the Secretary of State for the Inquiry/Station Counters 100 Home Department what her policy is on disciplining Fingerprint/Photographic 100 police officers found to have tampered with records of Firearms—Tactical 100 evidence. [89777] Firearms—Specialist 100 Fraud 80 Nick Herbert: In addition to the criminal and civil Hate Crime 80 law, police officers are also subject to the Police Conduct Intelligence 40 Regulations which contain the standards of professional Local Commanders 100 behaviour that police officers are expected to maintain. Marine 100 Where a police officer has breached those standards, Mounted 100 it is for the chief officer or police authority/elected local Neighbourhoods 100 policing body of the force concerned to consider what, Ports 100 if any, disciplinary action should be taken on a case-by-case Probationers (Student Officers) 100 basis. Response 100 Scenes of Crime 100 Prostitution Special Branch/Protection/ 100 Immigration/Nationality Surveillance Unit 100 Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assessment she has Technical Support Unit 80 made of whether the raids and closures of brothels Traffic 100 undertaken by the Metropolitan Police during the last Underwater 100 12 months has resulted in a dispersal of sex workers. Vehicle Crime 60 [90136] Vice 70 Nick Herbert: These are operational matters for the Police Custody: Death Metropolitan Police Service.

Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Stephen Lawrence Home Department how many deaths in police custody there were in each month since 1 January 2010. [89512] Ben Gummer: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what assessment she has made of Nick Herbert: The Home Office does not hold this the conduct of the Independent Police Complaints information. These matters are for the Independent Commission investigation into the relationship between Police Complaints Commission (IPCC). The IPCC has the Metropolitan Police and the families and acquaintances written to the right hon. Member about the information of suspects in the investigation into the murder of sought. A copy has been placed in the House Library. Stephen Lawrence; [89082] 823W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 824W

(2) whether she plans to examine reports of collusion Financial year DAF (CT) Budget (£ million) and corruption between members of the Metropolitan Police and the families and acquaintances of suspects 2007-08 1.24 in the investigation into the murder of Stephen Lawrence; 2008-09 1.74 [89117] 2009-10 1.36 (3) what assessment she has made of whether reports 2010-11 3.01 of corruption and collusion in the investigation by the 2011-12 2.42 Metropolitan Police into the murder of Stephen Lawrence have been properly and fully investigated. In each FY the budget is divided into individual [89175] projects with key partner nations. Due to the sensitive nature of CT activities we cannot provide details of Nick Herbert: Allegations of corruption and collusion spend in particular countries. between members of the Metropolitan Police and families and acquaintances of suspects in the investigation into Before FY 2007-08 CT activities were not allocated the murder of Stephen Lawrence were examined by the under a separately identifiable fund. Future budgets for MacPherson inquiry. The Independent Police Complaints DAF(CT) have yet to be agreed and are under consideration Commission has also investigated complaints from Neville as part of the wider departmental annual budget setting and Doreen Lawrence. If new allegations are made, it process. will be for the Metropolitan Police Service and the Independent Police Complaints Commission to decide what action to take. Defence Equipment

Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for DEFENCE Defence in which countries UK military equipment is based. [90445] Afghanistan: Defence Nick Harvey [holding answer 17 January 2012]: There John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence is no central list of UK military equipment holdings what comparative assessment he has made of the defence worldwide but Ministry of Defence equipment, such as manpower contribution in Afghanistan of the UK and communications, will be used by British personnel in all other NATO members. [88851] 80 locations where there is an enduring military presence. Mr Philip Hammond: The UK operates in Afghanistan This presence may be a military base, Defence Staff in as part of the UN-mandated 50 nation ISAF coalition, an embassy, Loan Service personnel or another UK with all 28 NATO nations contributing troops. We contingent conducting long term training missions or regularly monitor the manpower contributions of each supporting a multinational operation. nation through the ISAF placemat which is publicly available at the following web address: Departmental Apprentices http://www.isaf.nato.int/images/stories/File/2012-01- 06%20ISAF%20Placemat.pdf Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Armed Forces (1) how much funding from the public purse has been allocated to sponsor apprenticeships in each of the Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for public bodies for which his Department is responsible Defence (1) how many (a) armed forces personnel and between (a) April 2010 and March 2011, (b) April (b) service families live in each county council area in 2011 and March 2012 and (c) April 2012 and March England; [90275] 2013; [88740] (2) what the location is of each (a) barracks and (b) (2) how much funding his Department allocated to garrison within each county council area in England; sponsor apprenticeships in his Department in (a) 2010-11 and how many (i) armed forces personnel and (ii) and (b) 2011-12; and how much such funding he plans services families each site accommodates. [90276] to allocate in 2012-13. [89136] Mr Robathan [holding answer 17 January 2012]: The information is not held in the format requested. Mr Robathan: The armed forces draw down approximately £38 million per year from the Skills Counter-Terrorism: Finance Funding Agency (SFA) to support apprenticeship delivery. Little change is envisaged in this figure over the next Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for two years. Defence how much his Department spent in each country The MOD costs associated with this exercise cannot on counter-terrorism programmes in each financial year be separated from other areas of the business and from 2000-01 to 2010-11; and how much he plans to therefore could be provided only at disproportionate spend on such programmes in each country in each cost. financial year from 2011-12 to 2014-15. [90447] The civilian apprenticeship schemes ran at an Peter Luff [holding answer 17 January 2012]: Funds approximate operating cost of £710,000 for FY 2010-11. are allocated to Defence Engagement Counter Terrorism The estimated operating costs for FY 2011-12 are (CT) activities under the Defence Assistance Fund (DAF). approximately £660,000. Operating costs for FY 2012-13 The DAF(CT) total worldwide budget since 2007 has are not finalised but are estimated to have little or no been as follows: change to the FY 2011-12 figure. 825W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 826W

Departmental Data Protection Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many speechwriters his Department employs at each pay grade. [89388] Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence who in his Department can access (a) protected, (b) restricted, (c) confidential, (d) secret and (c) top Mr Philip Hammond: The Ministry of Defence has two full-time speechwriter posts. They are both civil secret documents. [90412] service posts, one at Band B1 and one at Band C1. Mr Robathan: The MOD operates from the fundamental security principles set out in the Cabinet Office’s Security Departmental Pay Policy Framework. Access to sensitive information or assets is only granted to those who have a business need Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence and who meet the appropriate personnel security controls how much was paid to officials in his Department and (Baseline Personnel Security Standard (BPSS) or National its non-departmental public bodies in (a) bonuses, (b) Security Vetting (NSV)). This ’need to know’ principle allowances and (c) other payments additional to basic is fundamental to the security of all protectively marked salary in each of the last two years for which figures are Government assets. available; what categories of payment may be made to This principle applies to all protective markings. However, officials in addition to basic salary; what the monetary the number of people with a need to know top secret value is of each category of payment; and what the information will be substantially fewer than the number monetary value was of the 20 largest such payments with a need to know restricted information. made in each of the last two years. [89676] Mr Robathan: A close and effective link between pay Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence and performance is a key element of the reward what guidance is provided to officials in his Department arrangements for the civil service. The performance to ensure that protective marking of documents is used element of pay is colloquially known as a bonus, but it for national security purposes and does not restrict the is a misleading description because the performance-related principles of open and transparent government. [90413] element of pay is not additional, it is part of the departmental pay bill. This total pay bill was agreed by Mr Robathan: On the subject of guidance provided to the previous Government as part of a three year pay officials I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on deal. 12 January 2012, Official Report, column 421W.Further For the senior civil service, performance incentives to that answer, the Protect marking is available for are paid primarily as non-consolidated performance material whose loss or compromise would have a negative payments. Any award is based on a judgment of how impact but which does not involve any National Security well an individual has performed against their peers and concerns. awards are made to those judged to have made the The MOD is fully committed to the Government’s greatest in-year contribution to business objectives. There Transparency and Open Data policies and proactively is no restriction on the nature of the contribution but it releases information that it believes will be of interest to must benefit both the Department or Defence as a the public, commerce and industry. The application of whole. Recommendations for awards are considered by a protective marking does not in itself exclude the moderation committees and must be linked to clear authorised disclosure of information (such as requests evidence of delivery. under the Freedom of Information Act). Departmental All satisfactory performers at SCS level were eligible guidance on disclosure of information includes procedures to be considered for a non-consolidated performance for declassifying information to permit release. award in line with Cabinet Office guidelines and the MOD pay strategy. Departmental Manpower Table 1 as follows details how much was paid to members of the SCS in non-consolidated performance Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for payments in financial years 2010-11 and 2011-12. Defence how many staff were employed in the private Senior fixed term employees are individuals who are office of (a) each Minister in his Department, (b) each recruited through fair and open competition from outside of the service chiefs, (c) the Chief of Defence Staff, the civil service. Those employed as senior fixed term (d) the Permanent Under-Secretary and (e) the appointees (FTAs) are on individual contracts and have Second Permanent Under-Secretary; and what the cost a higher percentage of pay allocated to performance to his Department was of such employment. [88311] awards which are judged against stringent and stretching delivery based objectives. Some have staged payments Mr Philip Hammond: As at 9 January 2012, there and it is now usual to pay a smaller annual performance were a total of 61 members of staff employed in the award with the remainder deferred for two to three private offices of Defence Ministers, the Chief of Defence years and judged against the delivery of medium to Staff, Service Chiefs, the Permanent Under-Secretary longer term objectives. Performance is judged by line and the Second Permanent Under-Secretary, at an estimated management with assistance from senior officials, cost of £3,983,567 per annum. However, the Second stakeholders, remuneration committees and in some Permanent Under-Secretary shares a combined private cases internal audit. office with the Vice Chief of Defence Staff and this Details of how much has been paid in non-consolidated combined office size (and cost) is reflected in the figures awards in financial years 2010-11 and 2011-12 are shown provided. below in Table 2. 827W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 828W

Table 3 shows the monetary values of the largest Table 3: Top 20 highest non-consolidated awards for combined SCS non-consolidated payments made in the last two years population to the combined SCS population of permanent staff £ and fixed term appointees. 9,000 Table 1: SCS permanent staff 9,000 £ 9,000 Performance year 2009-10 2010-11 9,000 FY 2010-11 2011-12 Note: Value of awards paid 995,500 505,500 Figures for FTA awards for FY 2010-11 differ from those published previously but now reflect outstanding award decisions which Table 2: SCS Fixed Term Appointees were still under consideration when figures were published initially. £ SCS FTA 2009-10 2010-11 Performance year For staff below the SCS, non-consolidated performance FY 2010-11 2011-12 awards are paid to staff who meet the eligibility criteria. Higher levels of award are available for those who have Value of awards paid 557,293 1519,193 contributed most to the business. These awards are 1 One yet be decided distributed on the basis of relative assessment among Table 3: Top 20 highest non-consolidated awards for combined SCS peers and are designed to encourage continuous high population attainment against stretching objectives. £ The MOD also operates an in year non-consolidated FY 2010-11 73,080 payment scheme, the Special Bonus Scheme (SBS), 49,937 which rewards eligible MOD civilians for exceptional performance in a specific task or for the achievement of 49,900 a professional qualification the use of which benefits 48,720 MOD and the individual. Separate arrangements apply 35,113 to Ministry of Defence Police (MDP) officers. 31,668 The following table details the total value of payments 26,715 made to staff below the SCS by way of non consolidated 25,755 performance payments and SBS awards by financial 22,888 year.

22,153 Financial year Total value of awards made (£) 17,000 2010-11 43,521,423 16,100 15,750 15,605 Payments made since 1 April 2011 are detailed in the 15,000 departmental transparency data 15,000 http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/ CorporatePublications/FinancialReports/Salaries/ 13,800 NonconsolidatedPerformanceAwards.htm 12,500 This response excludes information on staff below 12,500 the SCS in MOD Trading funds which have separate 12,500 pay delegations. With the exception of the National Museum of the FY 2011-12 85,831 Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force Museum, figures 69,459 for the Department’s non-departmental public bodies 49,950 are included in the figures above. 49,500 Non consolidated performance awards—The National Museum of the Royal Navy: 48,720 33,833 The following table details the total value of payments made to staff by way of non consolidated performance 25,578 payments awards by financial year. 20,554 19,492 Value of largest 20 payments 19,184 Total value of Financial awards made 17,637 year (£) Number (£) 15,415 2009-10 5,203 All 141 12,500 2010-11 0 0 0 12,180 11,250 10,000 The National Museum of the Royal Navy has no special bonus scheme. 829W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 830W

Non consolidated performance awards—The Royal Air Merlin flying hours Simulator hours Force Museum: The following table details the total value of payments Total hours 3,711:05 969:15 made to staff by way of non consolidated performance payments awards by financial year. Military Bases

Value of largest 20 payments Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Total value of for Defence pursuant to the answer to the hon. Financial awards made Member for Livingston of 5 September 2011, Official year (£) Number (£) Report, column 89W, on military bases: Kirknewton, 2009-10 69,350 All 1,650 on what dates he discussed the proposed creation of an 2010-11 55,650 1 3,325 Army base at Kirknewton; what the (a) names and (b) 1 1,825 positions held are of those who attended the 3 675 discussions; and whether a written record was taken of the discussions. [86642] 15 325

The Department currently has over 600 pay-related Nick Harvey: The creation of an Army base at allowances and payments in addition to salary available Kirknewton was considered as part of the 2010 Basing to civilian staff. The majority of which are listed on the review. The previous and current Secretaries of State People, Pay and Pensions Agency services website: for Defence have taken a detailed interest in the review and have held numerous discussions on the review with http://www.pppaservices.qinetiq-tim.com/ officials within the Ministry of Defence; with colleagues [email protected]/pppa/ index@page=content&id=us131&cat=pay_and_expenses across Government, with local and national governments; &actp=list.htm and in response to representations from members of the Information on the monetary value of each type of public. allowance and payment is available, but will take a short while to compile. I will write to the hon. Member with Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for the details as soon as possible. Defence in which countries the UK has basing rights; and for how many bases in each such country. [90035] HMS Affray Nick Harvey [holding answer 16 January 2012]: The Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence UK has established basing agreements for its armed if his Department will re-open a full inquiry into the forces with a number of countries for operational and causes of the sinking of HMS Affray on 16 April 1951. training purposes. The countries and number of locations [90454] in each country for which we have a basing agreement are set out as follows: Peter Luff: The loss of HMS Affray on 16 April 1951 Afghanistan—4 main operating bases was a tragic accident resulting in the loss of all 75 on Bahrain—1 location board. While I fully sympathise with those families Belize—1 location affected by the loss, I can see no reason to disagree with Brunei—1 location the findings of the Board of Inquiry undertaken at the Canada—1 location time, or what purpose would be served by a new Inquiry. Germany—4 main garrison locations Military Aircraft: Helicopters Kenya—3 locations Oman—1 location Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Qatar—1 location Defence how many Danish helicopter pilots have been UAE—1 location trained on the Merlin Helicopter at RAF Benson; and These are in addition to bases operated by the UK in for how many flight hours. [89989] Cyprus, Gibraltar, Diego Garcia, Ascension Island and the Falkland Islands. Nick Harvey: A total of eight Danish personnel comprising five pilots and three rear crewmen (air Navy: Manpower loadmasters) have trained on Merlin helicopters alongside their British counterparts at RAF Benson. The flying hours can be broken down as follows: Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the retention rates were for (a) female Merlin flying hours Simulator hours and (b) male (i) officers and (ii) ratings in the Royal Navy in each of the last five years. [89783] Pilot 1 723:15 84:00 Pilot 2 355:50 131:30 Mr Robathan: The information requested is not available. Pilot 3 351:40 133:00 Information on Voluntary outflow, together with length Pilot 4 694:15 78:30 of service information (although this is not available by Pilot 5 378:15 225:45 gender) is available on the Defence Analytical Services Crewman 1 599:20 65:15 and Advice website at: Crewman 2 309:25 140:45 http://www.dasa.mod.uk/applications/newWeb/www/apps/ Crewman 3 299:05 110:30 publications/pubViewFile.php?content=2710&date=2012-01- 12&type=pdf&PublishTime=09:30:00 831W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 832W

Radioactive Waste: Dalgety Bay Nick Harvey: The Ministry of Defence has in place a number of bilateral relationships with the 21 countries Mr Gordon Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for listed by the right hon. Member, which allows it to Defence when he expects the Minister of State to visit address defence and security issues of mutual or common Dalgety Bay; and whether he plans to meet representatives concern. These relationships range from Defence Attaches of the (a) local community council and (b) sailing through to full Defence Treaties. I will write with the club. [90473] details on each. In addition, the UK’s engagement in various multilateral forums, including the UN, NATO Mr Robathan: I will be visiting Dalgety Bay at the and the EU, further ensures that defence and security end of January 2012. This visit will include meeting issues are regularly discussed with the majority of these representatives of the local community council and nations. sailing club. Security prevention is not a term used by the MOD or Her Majesty’s Government. The Building Stability Mr Gordon Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Overseas Strategy (BSOS) outlines HMG’s approach to Defence when he expects his meeting with the hon. conflict prevention and sets out clear proposals for how Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath to discuss we can improve the way we identify and prevent instability radiation contamination at Dalgety Bay to take place. and conflict overseas by using our diplomatic, development, [90474] defence and security tools; and by working with our international partners. Mr Robathan: Estates matters such as the issue of radiation contamination at Dalgety Bay fall under my Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for area of responsibility as Minister for Defence Personnel Defence what assessment he has made of the (a) Welfare and Veterans. I will be visiting the site at the security situation and (b) threat level in (i) Canada, (ii) end of January 2012 to discuss the issue. China, (iii) France, (iv) Belgium, (v) Ireland, (vi) Italy, (vii) Norway, (viii) Spain, (ix) Sweden, (x) Switzerland, Mr Gordon Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for (xi) Poland, (xii) India, (xiii) Russia, (xiv) Denmark, Defence if his Department will delineate the areas at (xv) South Africa, (xvi) Turkey, (xvii) Mexico, (xviii) Dalgety Bay where radiation contamination is believed Japan, (xix) Germany, (xx) the US and (xxi) the to be present. [90475] Netherlands. [90466]

Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence remains Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence regularly feeds committed to assisting the Scottish Environment Protection into the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s travel Agency in identifying areas where radioactive material advice which is a public central focal point for security is believed to be buried and delivering a credible investigation and threat assessments including the 21 nations listed. plan for Dalgety Bay.

Mr Gordon Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for TREASURY Defence what his policy is on acceptance of liability for remedial action in relation to radiation contamination Adam Werritty at Dalgety Bay; and if he will make a statement. [90476] Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether (a) he, (b) officials of his Department and (c) Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence policy on the special advisers in his Department have met Mr Adam acceptance of liability pertaining to alienated sites is set Werritty on official business since May 2010; and how out in our Memorandum of Understanding with the many such meetings took place (i) on his Department’s Environment Agency and Joint Service Publication 418 premises and (ii) elsewhere. [78867] volume 2 leaflet 2. Copies of these will be placed in the Library of the House. Miss Chloe Smith [holding answer 7 November 2011]: The MOD is currently considering the draft Summary No meetings have taken place between Treasury Ministers of Evidence provided by Scottish Environment Protection or special advisers and Adam Werritty since May 2010. Agency and is undertaking its own investigations. Information relating to officials’ meetings is not held Until such time as our inquiries are completed the centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate Ministry of Defence is not in a position to comment cost. further on liability in relation to Dalgety Bay. Care Quality Commission: Redundancy Pay

Security Stephen Barclay: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the monetary value of Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for special severance payments notified to HM Treasury by Defence what work his Department undertakes on (a) the Care Quality Commission in each of the last three security management and (b) security prevention with years. [89477] (i) Canada, (ii) China, (iii) France, (iv) Belgium, (v) Ireland, (vi) Italy, (vii) Norway, (viii) Spain, (ix) Danny Alexander [holding answer 16 January 2012]: Sweden, (x) Switzerland, (xi) Poland, (xii) India, (xiii) Special severance payments notified to HM Treasury by Russia, (xiv) Denmark, (xv) South Africa, (xvi) Turkey, the Care Quality Commission over the last three years (xvii) Mexico, (xviii) Japan, (xix) Germany, (xx) the US involved varying sums between £500 and £50,000, and (xxi) the Netherlands. [90465] amounting to up to £107,000 in total. 833W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 834W

The Treasury’s aim is to ensure payments are justifiable. Mr Gauke: Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs do The first part of this process is to assess whether settlement not have the estimate requested as they do not breakdown itself is justified (e.g. in the case of an employment the information in this way. HMRC carries out regular tribunal claim, that legal advice indicates that the body audit checks on importers to ensure that they are declaring would lose the case). The second part of the process the correct value for their imports. then concentrates on whether the level of settlement is justified (again, in the case of employment tribunal Insurance claim, the comparator would the legal assessment of the likely tribunal award) and provides value for money Jonathan Evans: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (for the Exchequer as a whole, rather than simply the what discussions his Department has had with the body concerned). The final part of the process is to Financial Services Authority on mutual insurers and consider whether lessons can be learned and systems friendly societies in relation to with-profits business improved to avoid future occurrences. since May 2010. [R] [90238]

Children: Day Care Mr Hoban: The Treasury has regular discussions with the Financial Services Authority on a wide range of Glenda Jackson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer insurance sector issues, including issues linked to mutual if he will consider making childcare fully tax deductable; insurers and friendly societies. It is not the Government’s and if he will make a statement. [90356] practice to provide details of all such meetings. Miss Chloe Smith: The Government currently have Pensions no plans to make child care fully tax deductable. The Government realises that the cost of child care is Tracey Crouch: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer one of the most important factors for parents when what assessment he has made of the effect of the considering returning to, or progressing in, work. However, Government Actuary Department’s decision to reduce providing universal free or subsidised child care is the limit on withdrawals from income drawdown pension unaffordable. Allowing tax exemptions for child care schemes from 120 per cent. to 100 per cent.; and if he would result in a shortfall of revenue, and mean either will make a statement. [90341] further reductions in spending or raising revenue elsewhere, for example through increasing overall tax limits to Danny Alexander: The decision to reduce the maximum account for the loss. In a world with limited resources, annual withdrawal limit for drawdown pensions from the Government have to prioritise support for child care 120% to 100% of the value of a comparable annuity on those who need it most. was taken by the Government following extensive public consultation on reforms to remove the effective requirement Devolution: Finance to purchase an annuity by age 75. The impact on people with income drawdown pension Dr Alasdair McDonnell: To ask the Chancellor of the schemes is as follows: Exchequer what Barnett consequentials will accrue to if younger than 75, their maximum income withdrawal is each devolved administration from expenditure on the around 17% lower than it would otherwise have been and [90262] High Speed 2 rail network. if aged 75 or over, their maximum income withdrawal is around 11% higher than it would otherwise have been. Danny Alexander: Allocations to the devolved Administrations are made in the form of block grants. A Taxes Impact and Information Note for the measure It is not possible to identify consequentials for individual was published on 9 December 2010 on the website of spending items within the total grant. Once the detailed Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. budgeting and funding arrangements have been decided Public Sector Debt Barnett consequentials will be allocated in the normal way. Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Import Duties: China how much of the national debt can be attributed to each economic sector; and how much of the national debt is Mr Amess: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer owed to each (a) country, (b) private company and (c) what recent reports he has received of the underpricing other organisation. [90411] of imports from China for the purposes of import duty evasion; and if he will make a statement. [89847] Miss Chloe Smith: It is not possible to apportion Public Sector Net Debt to specific economic sectors. Mr Gauke: The European Commission has advised Debt reflects accumulated deficits, which in turn reflects member states of concerns regarding the undervaluation the difference between total Government spending and of certain imports into the European Union from China. whole-economy tax receipts. HMRC is working with its EU partners to establish the Data published by the Office for National Statistics extent of the undervaluation. Where undervaluation is and Bank of England shows that at end-September identified HMRC will take appropriate enforcement 2011: action. (a) The market value of gilt holdings by overseas investors totalled £354.7 billion (30.7% of the total stock); Mr Amess: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (b) The market value of gilt holdings by private companies what estimate he has made of the level of loss of import (insurance companies, pension funds, bank, building societies, duties through the underpricing of goods from China in other financial institutions and private non-financial companies) the latest period for which figures are available. [89848] totalled £571.7 billion (49.5% of the total stock); and 835W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 836W

(c) The market value of gilt holdings by other organisations Taxation: Bingo (Bank of England Asset Purchase Facility, households. local authorities and public corporations) totalled £227.7 billion (19.7% of the total stock). Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has any plans to reduce the level of gross profit tax levied on bingo club operators. [90469] Renewable Energy: Scotland Miss Chloe Smith: The Government keep all taxes under review and tax policy is made at Budget. Mr Davidson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much funding has been provided to the Scottish Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Chancellor of the Government as Barnett consequentials as a result of Exchequer what representations he has received from expenditure on the promotion and use of renewable the bingo industry on the relationship between bingo energy sources in each of the last five years. [90364] gross profits tax and total tax revenue from the gaming sector. [90470] Danny Alexander: Allocations to Scotland and the other devolved Administrations are made in the form of Miss Chloe Smith: Treasury Ministers and officials block grants. It is not possible to identify consequentials meet with, and receive representations from, a wide for individual spending items within the total grant. range of organisations and individuals in the public and The following table contains the Barnett consequentials private sectors as part of the usual policymaking process. since 2009-10 in relation to changes to the budget of the As was the case with previous Administrations, it is not Department of Energy and Climate Change. the Government’s practice to provide details of all such representations. £ million 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Budget 2009 21.8 5.7————what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State Pre Budget 04.0————for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport on bingo taxation. Report 2009 [90471] 2010 — — 2.1 10.5 13.3 17.4 Spending Review Miss Chloe Smith: Treasury Ministers and officials Fossil Fuel — — 103 0 0 0 meet with a wide range of organisations and individuals Levy in the public and private sectors as part of the usual policymaking process. As was the case with previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s practice to Revenue and Customs: Telephone Services provide details of all such discussions.

Graeme Morrice: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what the monetary value is of HM Revenue and what assessment he has made of the rate of gross profit (a) (b) Customs’ (HMRC) contracts with (a) Teleperformance tax levied on bingo clubs and bookmakers; and and (b) Sitel for 12-month trials of provision of telephony for what reasons there is a difference between to two services in HMRC’s contact centres in (i) Bathgate and rates. [90472] (ii) Lillyhall; [90021] Miss Chloe Smith: The rates of both general betting (2) for what reason Teleperformance’s advertisement duty and bingo duty were set by the previous Government. for staff to work on the 12-month contract with HM Bingo duty is charged at 20% of gross profits and Revenue and Customs (HMRC) for telephone advice general betting duty is charged at 15% of gross profits. services from HMRC’s contact centre in Bathgate is for The March 2011 Budget left rates unchanged. All taxes, permanent staff; and if he will make a statement. including gambling taxes, are kept under review. [90022] (3) what estimate he has made of the cost to the Taxation: Self-assessment public purse of the contracts for 12-month trials of private sector telephony services in HM Revenue and Customs contact centres in Bathgate and Lillyhall. Nicky Morgan: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer [90023] what recent estimate he has made of the average tax underpayment calculated for those using the online Mr Gauke: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I self-assessment service. [89907] gave him on 10 January 2012, Official Report, column 69W. Mr Gauke: The information requested could be provided only at disproportionate cost. The payment terms in each contract are commercially sensitive and it would not be appropriate to disclose them at this time. However I can confirm that HMRC Travel: Insurance have estimated the combined total cost to the public purse of both contracts over the expected 12 month life Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Chancellor of the of the trial, to be around £4 million. The terms private Exchequer what discussions he has had with the insurance sector companies decide to offer to potential employees industry on affordability of travel insurance for people when advertising private sector posts are matters for with secondary cancer which has been dormant for a them and not for ministers nor HMRC. prolonged period. [90462] 837W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 838W

Mr Hoban: Treasury Ministers and officials have increase television production investment with independent discussions with a wide variety of organisations and producers in the Midlands. The Government awaits the individuals in the public and private sectors as part of conclusions of the DQF review with interest. the process of policy development and delivery. As was The creative arts benefit from licence fee funding in a the case with previous Administrations, it is not the number of ways, for example, support for The Space, an Government’s practice to provide details of all such exciting digital arts media project being run by the BBC meetings. in partnership with the Arts Council. I understand that some cover is available for people with cancer wishing to travel abroad and finding insurance Departmental Manpower is getting easier for individuals with pre-existing medical conditions. Advice and information are available from industry and relevant cancer charities. Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many VAT: Sanitary Protection speechwriters his Department employs at each pay grade. [89404] Mr Donohoe: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make it his policy to reduce the level of VAT John Penrose: This Department currently employs levied on sanitary products for women to zero per cent; one speechwriter at Grade A (Civil Service Grade 7 and if he will make a statement. [89957] equivalent). In addition to their role as a speechwriter, they also have responsibility for strategic communication. Mr Gauke: It is not possible to reduce the rate of VAT on women’s sanitary products to zero. The UK Departmental Pay retains its zero rates of VAT under longstanding formal agreements with other member states. Under the terms of those agreements, we cannot extend the scope of Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, existing zero rates nor introduce new ones. The current Olympics, Media and Sport how much was paid to rate of VAT on women’s sanitary products is 5%, the officials in his Department and its non-departmental lowest rate allowed under our agreements with European public bodies in (a) bonuses, (b) allowances and (c) partners. other payments additional to basic salary in each of the last two years for which figures are available; what Wealth categories of payment may be made to officials in addition to basic salary; what the monetary value is of Mr Carswell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer each category of payment; and what the monetary whether (a) he and (b) Ministers in his Department value was of the 20 largest such payments made in each have read The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith. of the last two years. [89694] [89938] John Penrose: The information in table 1 shows how Mr Hoban: Treasury Ministers and officials consider much officials in this Department received in (a) a wide range of views from a variety of sources to performance related payments, (b) allowances and (c) provide the historical and international context to the other payments in additional to basic pay in each of the UK’s economic policy. last two years. Table 1 Financial year Financial Year 2010- 2009–10 011 CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Type of payment Total (£) Total (£)

Arts Performance related 608,587 735,259 payments John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for Allowances 344,294 366,100 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will review Other payments— 229,663 61,996 the operation of the licence fee to ensure that the BBC’s overtime operations and expenditure in the West Midlands will continue to support the regional economy and creative The categories of payment that may be made available arts. [89440] to officials are: (a) Performance related payments: Mr Vaizey: The Government supports regional television These payments were made to employees for two production as it benefits regional economies and is purposes: in year payments to reward outstanding good for the UK’s cultural diversity. contributions in particularly demanding tasks or situations Within the framework of the BBC Charter, however, with small one-off payments, and performance related the BBC is operationally and editorially independent of payments to reward highly successful performance over Government and there is no provision for Government a whole appraisal year. Awards were made in line with to intervene. The BBC is required to meet quotas for Cabinet Office principles, Civil Service Pay guidelines television production outside of London but it is for the on performance-related pay. BBC to determine how the quotas are achieved. There are a small number of people within the The BBC’s Delivering Quality First (DQF) review Department, primarily in Olympic related roles, who includes a proposal to move factual programming for are employed on fixed term contracts with performance BBC television and Radio 4 out of Birmingham but to related elements. 839W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 840W

(b) Allowances: on 26 August, and both Glasgow and Belfast on 9 In addition to base salaries, allowances are paid to September. As part of the Summits, he met a range of assist in the recruitment and retention of staff in certain interested parties, including established media organisations, specialist posts. Since 2009, the Department has used an new media entrants and community media groups. There allowance system in place of overtime for those staff were 100 attendees in Newport, 65 attendees in Glasgow working in ministerial offices. and 60 attendees in Belfast. In addition, on 9 September he met the Scottish Minister for Culture and External (a) Overtime: Affairs to discuss broadband, local TV and Scottish There are times when it may be necessary for employees broadcasting. to work overtime to meet business needs. Overtime is a short term measure to deal with a specific situation Departmental Work Experience such as a backlog of work or exceptional pressure of work. Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for The information in table 2 shows what the monetary Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what guidelines value was of the 20 largest payments made in each of his Department issues to its non-departmental public the last two years: bodies on the employment of unpaid interns. [89403] Table 2 £ John Penrose: This Department has not issued specific Type of payment advice to its non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) Performance on the employment of unpaid interns. However, if advice related is sought from the Department, NDPBs are referred to payments Allowance Overtime ″The Common Best Practice Guide for High Quality Largest Internships″ published by the Gateways to the Professions 20 Collaborative Forum, which can be found on the payments Department for Business, Innovation and Skills’ website: 2010-11 2009-10 2010-11 2009-10 2010-11 2009-10 http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/higher-education/docs/c/ 1 187,500 49,500 4,000 4,000 4,850 2,484 11-1068-common-best-practice-code-for-quality-internships.pdf 2 130,000 40,000 4,000 4,000 3,756 2,178 3 20,000 12,500 4,000 4,000 3,658 2,160 4 10,500 12,500 4,000 4,000 3,030 1,543 5 10,500 12,500 4,000 4,000 2,445 1,489 WORK AND PENSIONS 6 8,000 12,000 4,000 4,000 2,415 1,363 7 8,000 11,000 4,000 4,000 2,131 1,342 Atos Healthcare 8 8,000 10,000 4,000 4,000 2,097 1,325 9 8,000 10,000 4,000 4,000 2,076 1,277 Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for 10 8,000 10,000 4,000 4,000 2,022 1,262 Work and Pensions what proportion of claimants 11 8,000 10,000 4,000 4,000 1,930 1,244 participating in the Atos Quality Survey in each region 12 8,000 10,000 4,000 4,000 1,880 1,220 rated Atos Healthcare’s performance as (a) very good, 13 7,300 10,000 4,000 4,000 1,859 1,041 (b) good, (c) poor and (d) very poor in (i) 2008, (ii) 14 5,500 10,000 4,000 4,000 1,814 1000 2009, (iii) 2010 and (iv) 2011. [90236] 15 5,500 9,500 4,000 4,000 1,787 953 16 5,500 8,000 4,000 4,000 1,701 923 Chris Grayling: Unfortunately the information requested 17 5,500 8,000 4,000 4,000 1,611 835 above is not available in the format requested. 18 5,500 8,000 4,000 4,000 1,594 817 The answer could be provided in the requested 19 1,850 8,000 4,000 4,000 1,513 805 format only at disproportionate costs exceeding the 20 1,600 8,000 4,000 4,000 1,419 798 disproportionate cost limit of £800 for parliamentary questions. We do not hold data centrally for our arm’s length bodies. Accordingly, I have asked their chief executives EU Law to write directly to my hon. Friend the Member for Witham. John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Copies of the replies will be deposited in the Libraries and Pensions how many of the regulations his Department of both Houses. brought into force through (a) primary legislation, (b) secondary legislation and (c) other means originated Departmental Responsibilities from proposals by the European Commission in (i) 2010 and (ii) 2011. [88962] Mr Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport on how many occasions he Chris Grayling: The following new secondary legislation has visited (a) Scotland, (b) Wales and (c) Northern and legally binding guidance brought forward by my Ireland in an official capacity in the last 12 months; and Department and brought into force in 2010 and 2011 whom he met on each such visit. [90365] originated from proposals made by the European Commission before 2010: John Penrose: In 2011 the Secretary of State for The Occupational, Personal and Stakeholder Pensions Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, my right hon. (Miscellaneous Amendment) Regulations 2009 (SI 2009/615); Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), The Application of Pension Legislation to the National as part of a series of Local TV summits, visited Newport Employment Savings Trust Corporation Regulations (SI 2010/8); 841W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 842W

The Biocidal Products (Amendment) Regulations 2010 (SI sample size of the FRS is not large enough to provide 2010/745); robust estimates at the constituency or borough level. The Control of Artificial Optical Radiation at Work Regulations Notes: 2010 (SI 2010/1140); 1. Numbers have been rounded to the nearest pound. The Transfer of State Pensions and Benefits (Amendment) Regulations 2010 (SI 2. The estimates are based on sample counts that have been adjusted for non-response using multi-purpose grossing factors 2010/1825); that control for tenure type, council tax band and a number of The Occupational Pensions (Investment) (Amendment) Regulations demographic variables. 2010 (SI 2010/2161; 3. Estimates are subject to sampling error and remaining non-sampling The Application of Pension Legislation to the National bias. Employment Savings Trust Corporation Regulations 2011 4. The FRS is known to under-record benefit receipt. Please see (SI 2011/673); and table M6 of Chapter 7 of the latest publication for more information: HSE publication EH40/2005: Workplace Exposure Limits. http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/frs/2009_10/ No new legislation or guidance has been brought into frs_2009_10_report.pdf force by my Department which originated from European 5. These figures have not been adjusted to account for different Commission proposals made in 2010 and 2011. household sizes. 6. A household refers to a single person or group of people living Remploy at the same address as their only or main residence, who either share one meal a day together or share the living accommodation (i.e. a living room). A household will consist of one or more Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work benefit units. and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 12 January 2012, Official Report, column 384W,on Remploy: social Unemployment: Graduates enterprises, how many requests to waive the recruitment freeze his Department has received from Remploy since the freeze began; and what assessment he has made of Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State the effects of the freeze on the viability of factories for Work and Pensions how many graduates are registered bidding for contracts. [90455] as unemployed in each parliamentary constituency. [90661] Maria Miller: Since the freeze on external recruitment across the civil service and its related non-departmental Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the public bodies, the Department has received requests Cabinet Office. from Remploy to recruit externally across the business The information requested falls within the responsibility for 302 posts. Of these 35 were for the Enterprise of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority Businesses and 25 of these were approved. Requests to reply. relating to the Enterprise Businesses have in the main Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated January 2012: been for management and business support posts, such as key account and sales managers. The remaining 267 As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking requests relate to posts in Employment Services, of how many graduates are registered as unemployed in each which 200 have been approved. parliamentary constituency in the UK (90661). I am not aware of any effect the freeze has had on the The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles unemployment viability of factories bidding for contracts. statistics for local areas from the Annual Population Survey (APS) following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions. Social Security Benefits: Bexley Unfortunately the sample size does not support analyses of graduate unemployment at parliamentary constituency level. National and local area estimates for many labour market Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Work statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant and Pensions what the average total level of benefits count are available on the NOMIS website at: received per household was in (a) Bexleyheath and http://www.nomisweb.co.uk Crayford constituency and (b) the London borough of Bexley in the latest period for which figures are available. [90524] Work Capability Assessments

Chris Grayling: While information on DWP administered Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work benefits is available at constituency level, we do not and Pensions how many employment and support hold complete information on those benefits administered allowance claimants in each region were asked to participate by other Government Departments and organisations. in the Atos Quality Survey (a) before learning the Restricting analysis to those benefits administered directly outcome of their work capability assessment and (b) by DWP may present a misleading picture of benefit after learning the outcome of their work capability receipt. In addition, we estimate that developing an assessment in (i) 2008, (ii) 2009, (iii) 2010 and (iv) 2011. appropriate methodology and quality assuring any analysis [90237] of DWP administrative data would exceed disproportionate cost limits. Chris Grayling: Neither Atos Healthcare nor Wyman According to the latest release of the Family Resource Dillon the market research company which carries out Survey (FRS), the median weekly household income the Atos quality survey on their behalf know if a from benefits and tax credits for households with at claimant has received the outcome of their work capability least one member in receipt of at least one benefit or tax assessment when they participate in the survey as the credit in the United Kingdom in 2009-10 was £141. The entitlement to benefit decision is issued by the DWP. 843W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 844W

Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work A copy of the Mind, Mencap and the National and Pensions with reference to page 24 of Professor Autistic Society report is available in the House Library. Malcolm Harrington’s report An Independent Review On 17 January 2012, Official Report, column 654W, of the Work Capability Assessment—year two, what answers to questions PQ 90313 and PQ 90314 update discussions he has had with the Tribunal Service on the on the progress with this work. provision of statistical information to the Harrington Review in relation to the monitoring of appeal outcomes Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work within and between tribunals. [90307] and Pensions with reference to page 13 of the Government’s response to Professor Malcolm Harrington’s second Chris Grayling: Professor Harrington has not, to independent review of the work capability assessment, date, asked the Department to request this statistical how many Quality Assessment Framework events have information on his behalf. been held since July 2011, by region. [90315] As his second independent review makes clear Professor Harrington intends to continue to pursue his Chris Grayling: The Quality Assessment Framework recommendations relating to the Tribunal Service over was introduced in July for incapacity benefit (IB) the coming year, including the monitoring of appeals reassessment decisions and in August for employment outcomes within and between Tribunals. and support allowance (ESA) decisions. Since then quality checks on decisions have been completed and The Department supports this work and believe it feedback and improvement discussions completed on a could have a positive impact on the WCA process as a regular basis between managers and individual Decision whole. Makers in order to improve the quality and consistency of decision making. Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for In addition, to ensure the consistent application of Work and Pensions with reference to page 10 of the standards in the Quality Assessment Framework, a Government’s response to Professor Malcolm national calibration exercise was held in November, Harrington’s second independent review of the work followed by similar events at DWP Group level. These capability assessment, what progress has been made on were timed to allow for the framework and checking the national implementation of the Decision Maker’s regime to bed in. Justification to all employment and support allowance claimants found not to have limited capability for Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work work. [90308] and Pensions with reference to page 14 of the Government’s response to Professor Malcolm Harrington’s Second Independent Review of the Work Capability Assessment, Chris Grayling: National implementation activity what steps his Department takes following the receipt commenced in December 2011 to issue the Decision of more than one C-grade assessment by an Atos-approved Maker’s reasons to incapacity benefit (IB) reassessment healthcare professional. [90319] and employment and support allowance (ESA) claimants found to have no limited capability for work following Chris Grayling: Atos are responsible for the performance the WCA and disallowed ESA on and after 23 January management of their health care professionals. Any 2012. health care professional who generatesaCgradereport The Decision Maker’s Reasoning (previously referred receives mandatory feedback. Subsequent action may to as Decision Maker’s Justification) will provide these include targeted audit or retraining if required. The claimants with a clear explanation of the decision and DWP Chief Medical Adviser will revoke approval to all the evidence considered by the Decision Maker not carry out assessments if there is persistent failure to just the Atos assessment. This along with the disallowance achieve a satisfactory standard, despite remedial action call, introduced as part of the ESA changes in October by Atos. 2011, delivers the intended aim of Professor Harrington’s year one recommendation. Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions with reference to page 16 of the Government’s response to Professor Malcolm Harrington’s Second Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Independent Review of the Work Capability Assessment, and Pensions with reference to page 12 of the Government’s what progress he has made in implementing response to Professor Malcolm Harrington’s second recommendation one of Professor Harrington’s year independent review of the work capability assessment, one recommendation. [90320] if he will publish the proposals developed by Mind, Mencap and the National Autistic Society for refinements to the mental function descriptors of the work capability Chris Grayling: Enhanced support for employment assessment. [90312] and support allowance (ESA) claimants was introduced via a phased national approach, which commenced in June and was completed on 31 October 2011. Claimants Chris Grayling: We currently have no plans to formally will benefit from a new letter explaining the WCA publish the report submitted by Professor Harrington process; and a telephone call by the DWP Decision to us on the mental, intellectual and cognitive descriptors. Maker to explain the decision made on their claim. Professor Harrington’s second independent review of DWP endorses Professor Harrington’s year two the work capability assessment contains a precis of the recommendation to monitor the impact of the year one reports recommendations. changes and evaluation is currently under way. 845W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 846W

Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work when he last received a report from Atos Healthcare of and Pensions with reference to page 16 of the Government’s the results into the use of free text. [90327] response to Professor Malcolm Harrington’s second independent review of the work capability assessment, Chris Grayling: DWP has not received any reports how many unannounced visits to (a) benefits delivery from Atos of the results into the use of free text as this centres and (b) Atos medical assessment centres took is not information that Atos is currently asked or required place in each region in 2011. [90322] to provide. Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Chris Grayling: Pages 24 and 25 of Professor Harrington’s and Pensions with reference to page 18 of the Government’s second independent review of the WCA cover his response to Professor Malcolm Harrington’s Second unannounced visits in 2011. Independent Review of the Work Capability Assessment, He visited Gloucester and Merthyr Tydfil Benefit on how many occasions he received a report from Atos Delivery Centres. He did not make any unannounced Healthcare of the results into the use of free text in visits to Atos sites. 2011. [90328] The Government accepted Professor Harrington’s Chris Grayling: DWP has not received any reports recommendation to make further unannounced visits from Atos of the results into the use of free text as this to both Benefit Delivery Centres and Atos assessment is not information that Atos is currently asked or required centres in 2012. We will leave it to Professor Harrington to provide. to decide where and when he will make these visits, and look forward to his feedback on completed visits. Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions with reference to page 19 of the Government’s Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work response to Professor Malcolm Harrington’s Second and Pensions with reference to page 17 of the Government’s Independent Review of the Work Capability Assessment, response to Professor Malcolm Harrington’s Second what assessment he has made of the recruitment and Independent Review of the Work Capability Assessment, retention of Atos-approved healthcare professionals. when his Department’s training products guidance and [90329] handbook sections were last updated following consultation with representative groups and their medical advisers. Chris Grayling: The recruitment and retention of [90323] Atos Healthcare, Healthcare Professionals continues to be monitored on a monthly basis. The monthly report Chris Grayling: The Revised WCA handbook was tracks progress against recruitment and retention targets. last revised on 4 October 2011 incorporating information Presently, Atos Healthcare is providing a good level of from the Migraine Trust. The latest guidance to be priority to recruitment and retention, although with developed in conjunction with a representative group regards to recruitment there are challenging geographical was a distance learning module on violence against areas where actions are in place to resolve these during women and girls developed in conjunction with South 2012. Essex Rape and Incest Crisis Centre that was issued in Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work May 2011. and Pensions with reference to page 20 of the Government’s response to Professor Malcolm Harrington’s second Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work independent review of the work capability assessment, and Pensions with reference to page 18 of the Government’s what (a) his timetable is for and (b) progress he has response to Professor Malcolm Harrington’s Second made on evaluating the customer journey. [90332] Independent Review of the Work Capability Assessment, on what date he plans to publish part one of his Chris Grayling: The changes to the employment and Department’s research into what happens to people support allowance (ESA) customer journey, introduced found fit for work, and those placed in work related nationally from 31 October 2011, provides additional activity and support groups. [90325] support to individuals via a new letter explaining the WCA process; and a telephone call by the Decision Chris Grayling: We plan to publish the research on Maker to explain the decision made on their claim. A 27 January. It will be available on the DWP website. phased national implementation approach enabled the evaluation of these changes prior to national rollout to ensure they would deliver improvements to the customer Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work experience. and Pensions with reference to page 18 of the Government’s response to Professor Malcolm Harrington’s Second National rollout will enable more robust evaluation Independent Review of the Work Capability Assessment, to be completed, which will enable DWP to identify if he will publish the results of the monitoring of free further improvements and findings will feed into Professor text by Atos Healthcare. [90326] Harrington’s year three review.

Chris Grayling: DWP has no current plans to publish the results of the monitoring of free text by Atos. TRANSPORT Coventry Gateway Project Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions with reference to page 18 of the Government’s Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State response to Professor Malcolm Harrington’s Second for Transport whether she has had recent discussions Independent Review of the Work Capability Assessment, with Coventry and Warwickshire Local Enterprise 847W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 848W

Partnership (LEP) on the (a) funding allocated to the (3) how many MOT testing stations there are in each Tollbar Island in the Autumn Statement and (b) work (a) parliamentary constituency and (b) local authority of the LEP on the Coventry Gateway project; and if area in Scotland; [88175] she will make a statement. [89803] (4) how many MOT tests were conducted in each (a) parliamentary constituency and (b) local authority Norman Baker: The Autumn Statement of 29 November area in Scotland in each of the last five years; [88176] 2011, Official Report, columns 799-810, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. Member for Tatton (5) how many MOT testers are registered in each (a) (Mr Osborne), confirmed the A45/A46 Tollbar End parliamentary constituency and (b) local authority improvement scheme as one of six major projects to be area in Scotland; [88177] brought forward for construction earlier than previously (6) what assessment she has made of the economic planned, subject to the completion of statutory processes impact in (a) Scotland and (b) Kilmarnock and Loudoun where applicable. constituency of the proposed changes to MOT tests; Ministers have had no discussions with Coventry and [88301] Warwickshire LEP on this subject. However, senior (7) what estimate she has made of the likely change officials from the Department for Transport, Highways in the number of (a) MOT testers and (b) MOT test Agency, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, centres in Scotland following the proposed changes to and Department for Communities and Local Government MOT tests. [88302] met with representatives of the promoters of the Coventry Gateway project and Coventry and Warwickshire LEP Mike Penning: I expect to make an announcement in December. The potential interaction of the A45 soon about the timing and scope of a review of the Tollbar End improvement and the Coventry Gateway MOT. project was discussed. It was agreed that the Highways Agency would have further detailed discussions with No assessment has been made of the effect on the promoters with the aim of ensuring that the two employment in Scotland or on the economic impact in projects are compatible. (a) Scotland and (b) Kilmarnock and Loudoun constituency with regard to any potential changes to Motor Vehicles: Licensing MOT tests. No estimate has been made of the number of MOT David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for tests which will be carried out in Scotland each year or Transport what plans she has to require operators of the likely change in the number of (a) MOT testers and Showmen’s vehicles and Showmen’s goods vehicles to (b) MOT test centres in Scotland with regard to any obtain an operator’s licence; and if she will make a potential changes to MOT tests. statement. [90190] With regard to the number of MOT testing stations, Mike Penning: Showman’s goods vehicles and any MOT tests conducted and MOT testers registered in trailer drawn by them are exempt from goods vehicle each (a) parliamentary constituency and (b) local operator licensing. The Government have no plans to authority area in Scotland; the information requested is change this. not processed in constituency or regional format and would invoke disproportionate cost. Motor Vehicles: Lighting

Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Motorways: Speed limits Transport what steps she is taking to raise awareness of road safety standards on correct use of headlights by Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for vehicles in rain, snow and low-light. [90552] Transport what steps her Department plans to put in place to offset the increase in emissions attributable to Mike Penning: There are no current plans to raise, any increase in the motorway speed limit. [90812] awareness of road safety standards regarding the correct use of headlights by vehicles in rain, snow and low-light. The Highways Agency’s winter campaign includes a Mike Penning: We are assessing all the principal call to “Make sure your lights are clean and check the effects of raising the national speed limit on motorways bulbs”: and on some all-purpose trunk roads which are close to motorway standard. Our assessments include estimates http://www.highways.gov.uk/knowledge/33230.aspx of fuel use and carbon emissions. We will include these The Highway Code also provides information for estimates as part of the documentation for the planned drivers when driving in adverse conditions. consultation. Motor Vehicles: Testing We are also delivering progressive cuts in transport carbon emissions through a range of measures set out Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for in our Carbon Plan published on 1st December 2011. Transport (1) what assessment she has made of the For example, new cars sold in 2020 are projected to emit effect on employment in Scotland of the proposed around a third less carbon than the current average. A changes to MOT tests; [88145] link to the Government’s Carbon Plan can be found at: (2) what estimate she has made of the number of http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/tackling/carbon_plan/ MOT tests which will be carried out in Scotland each carbon_plan.aspx year after the implementation of her proposed changes The Strategic Framework for Road safety sets out a to MOT tests; [88146] series of measures we are doing to improve road safety. 849W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 850W

Queen Elizabeth II Bridge Roads: Greater London

Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Transport what assessment she has made of the effects what assessment her Department has made of the effect of the closure of the Queen Elizabeth II Bridge on of the relationship between local authorities in London traffic levels in Thurrock on 4 January 2012; and if she and Transport for London on plans to devolve decision will make a statement. [90350] making on the classification of local roads. [89025]

Mike Penning: On 4 January the QEII Bridge was Norman Baker [holding answer 12 January 2012]: closed during the evening from 21.43 and reopened at Under the new system for road classification, responsibility 17.09 on 5 January. The effects of the closure on traffic for classification rests with the local highway authority. levels in Thurrock on 4 January would therefore have In London this is shared between the borough and City been minimal. authorities, and Transport for London. Within Thurrock the Highways Agency are responsible Local highway authorities should secure agreement for the M25, A282, A13 and A1089 trunk roads on to classification changes from other affected local highway behalf of the Secretary of State for Transport as highway authorities. Vesting co-ordinating responsibility in Transport authority. During each of the bridge closures traffic for London would be a matter for the authorities involved, levels were monitored on the M25/A282. and would be perfectly acceptable. An appeals process There are no cameras or other equipment along the will be available to local authorities and others. A13 or A1089 to monitor traffic levels, however, the Highways Agency was aware of morning peak hour queuing on the A13 westbound in the Thurrock area Thameslink Railway Line: Rolling Stock which resulted from the reduction in capacity at the Dartford-Thurrock crossing. Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Monitoring of traffic levels on other roads within Transport (1) whether her Department takes account Thurrock is undertaken by the local highway authority, of foreign exchange rate risk between the bid and Thurrock council. financial close of each batch for each bidder for the Thameslink Rolling Stock Programme; [89183] Roads: Accidents (2) if she will estimate the extent of any risk to her Department from fluctuations in the exchange rate in Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for respect of the Thameslink Rolling Stock Programme; Transport how many road traffic accidents involved and whether her Department has estimated the range incorrect use of headlights as a contributory factor in of potential risks that relate to different exchange rate Shrewsbury and Atcham constituency in (a) 2008, (b) levels. [89884] 2009 and (c) 2010. [90551] Mrs Villiers: The Department performs sensitivity Mike Penning: Information specifically on the “incorrect analysis of exchange rate movements, and their use of headlights” as a contributory factor in road repercussions on contract awards, on an ongoing basis. accidents is not collected by the Department. However, the following table shows the number of reported personal injury road accidents in the West Midlands which had Transport: Subsidies “dazzling headlights” or “not displaying lights at night or in poor visibility” recorded as a contributory factor, Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for over the period 2008-10. To protect the privacy of those Transport (1) how many representations she has received involved in accidents, information on contributory factors from (a) hon. Members and (b) others concerning the is not released below former Government Office Region withdrawal of discretionary transport subsidies; [89072] level. (2) what estimate she has made of the total expenditure Contributory factors are reported only for injury on discretionary transport subsidies in each of the last road accidents where a police officer attended the scene three years; [89074] and reported at least one contributory factor. These factors are largely subjective, reflecting the attending (3) which local authorities have (a) withdrawn and officer’s opinion at the time of reporting. It is recognised (b) reduced the level of discretionary transport that subsequent inquiries could lead to the reporting subsidies in England over the last five years. [89075] officer changing their opinion. Tim Loughton: I have been asked to reply on behalf Reported personal injury road accidents1 involving “dazzling headlights” or “not displaying lights at night or in poor visibility” as a of the Department for Education. contributory factor in the West Midlands, 2008-10 The Department does not require or collect any 2008 2009 2010 information from local authorities or other sources on Not displaying lights 52 45 36 levels of total expenditure on discretionary transport at night or in poor support. We regularly receive letters and other information visibility from Members of Parliament, which cover home to Dazzling headlights 35 35 26 school transport as well as other policy areas. We do not 1 Includes only accidents where a police officer attended the scene hold records on how many such requests are specifically and in which a contributory factor was reported. about the withdrawal of discretionary transport subsidies. 851W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 852W

Written Questions: Government Responses Levelised costs of electricity, 10% discount rate (based on Arup and PB reports) £/MWh Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Levelised cost with Levelised cost with Transport when she plans to reply to question 88707, Technology 2011 project start 2017 project start tabled on 20 December 2011, on roads. [90554] Solar PV 314.3 240.8 Mike Penning: I answered this question on 11 January Offshore wind 121.6 105.7 2012, Official Report, column 310W. Round 2 Offshore wind 147.5 122.4 Round 3 Onshore wind >5MW 90.2 87.5 ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Nuclear 74.1 (FOAK) 64.9 (NOAK) Note: Biomass FOAK refers to first-of-a-kind and NOAK to nth-of-a-kind plants Since then, Cambridge Economic Policy Associates Susan Elan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for (CEPA) and Parsons Brinckerhoff have produced a Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has report2 for DECC updating assumptions for solar PV made of the effects of his Department’s policy to costs to inform the recent consultation on feed in tariffs incentivise co-firing, conversion and dedicated biomass for solar PV. This analysis was used in the impact on wood fuel resources. [89876] assessment supporting the consultation. 1 Arup (2011), Review of the generation costs and deployment Gregory Barker: As part of our consultation on the potential of renewable electricity generation technologies in the renewables obligation banding review, DECC published UK and Parsons Brinckerhoff (2011) Electricity Generation Cost a partial impact assessment which included consideration Model—2011 Update. Both are available at: of the impact of its proposals on sustainably-sourced http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/about/ec_social_res/ wood fuel resources. Resource supply scenarios indicate analytic_projs/gen_costs/gen_costs.aspx that by 2020 global woody bioenergy resource that 2 CEPA and Parsons Brinckerhoff (2011), Updates to the Feed-in could be available for use by the UK bioenergy industry tariffs model, available at: could be in the region of 170-515 TWh. Modelling for http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/11/consultation/fits-comp- the renewables obligation banding review suggests review-p1/3365-updates-to-fits-model-doc.pdf approximately 110 TWh of woody fuels will be required for conversion, co-firing and dedicated biomass in 2020. David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made The consultation closed on 12 January. DECC intends of the level of public subsidy received by the (a) solar, to publish the Government response and full impact (b) onshore wind, (c) offshore wind, (d) biomass and assessment in the spring, informed by the submissions (e) carbon capture and storage industry; and what received and the conclusions of the cross-Government proportion of such subsidies are funded out of (i) bio-energy strategy, due in March. The strategy will set consumer energy bills and (ii) general taxation. [89189] out a strategic framework for the use of bioenergy to 2020 and is examining three main issues: Gregory Barker: The deployment of large-scale renewable The availability of sustainably sourced feedstocks to 2020 and electricity generation is supported by the renewables beyond; obligation (RO) introduced in 2002. The RO places an The potential impacts (economic and carbon) of using biomass obligation on electricity suppliers and it is expected they in the energy sector including for alternative uses for bio-resources; will pass the cost of this obligation onto their various and energy customers through their electricity bills. The The most appropriate use of biomass feedstocks in the energy total level of support provided by the RO in 2010-11 sector (electricity, heat and transport) to 2020 and beyond taking into account wider Government objectives such as was £1,285 million. Estimates have not be made for the cost-effectiveness, carbon abatement potential, renewables targets amount of RO support received by different types of and security of supply. technologies in 2010-11. Small-scale (less than 5 mega watts) low-carbon electricity Energy generation is supported by the feed-in tariffs (FITs) scheme introduced on 1 April 2010. The FITs scheme is David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for funded by the electricity suppliers and it is expected that Energy and Climate Change what the cost per kWh is the costs are ultimately passed on to electricity consumers. for (a) solar, (b) offshore wind, (c) onshore wind and The total level of support provided by the FITs scheme (d) nuclear power generation; and what estimate his in 2010-11 was £14.4 million. Estimates are not available Department has made of such costs in 2020. [88878] on the amount of FITs support received by different types of technologies. Gregory Barker: DECC commissioned Arup consultants Approximately £37.7 million has been paid to the to assess the generation costs of renewable electricity Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS) industry to support generation technologies and Parsons Brinckerhoff Front-End Engineering and Design studies as part of consultants to assess the generation costs of non-renewable the CCS demonstration programme since it was established technologies. to the end of October 2011. This has been funded from The Arup and PB reports1 quote the following projected general taxation. In addition £3.1 million, funded from levelised costs of electricity per MWh for 2011 and general taxation, was spent by DECC to support a 2017, using a 10% discount rate, for solar, offshore range of research and development grants for Carbon wind, onshore wind and nuclear: Abatement Technologies, including CCS, in 2010-11. 853W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 854W

DECC and a number of other bodies also receive Gregory Barker: DECC has lead responsibility for funding from general taxation to support the research, the following adopted directives which require further development and demonstration of other low carbon measures to complete their transposition into UK law: technologies. An annual expenditure return on total Directive 2009/28/EC on the promotion of the use of energy low carbon technology expenditure is made to the from renewable sources International Energy Agency (IEA). The return does Directive 2009/29/EC to improve and extend the greenhouse not differentiate between offshore and onshore wind gas emission allowance trading scheme of the Community and expenditure on biomass is covered under the bio-energy Directive 2009/72/EC concerning common rules for the internal group of technologies. Early estimated expenditure figures market in electricity provided to the IEA for 2010-11 are as follows: Directive 2009/73/EC concerning common rules for the internal market in gas £ million Directive 2009/31/EC on the geological storage of carbon Solar 14.64 dioxide Onshore and offshore wind 63.23 Directive 2009/119/EC imposing an obligation to maintain Bio-energy 31.24 minimum stocks of crude oil and/or petroleum products Directive 2011/70/EURATOM establishing a Community Energy Performance Certificates framework for the responsible and safe management of spent fuel and radioactive waste Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for This list does not include directives for which DECC Energy and Climate Change what consideration he gave is not the lead Department or for which no further to including the mandatory roll-out of display energy measures are considered necessary to complete their certificates to non-residential buildings in the Carbon transposition into UK law. Plan. [89617] EU regulations which may require implementing measures and for which DECC is the lead Department Gregory Barker: The Government considered a wide have not been included. Although modifications to UK range of policy options in formulating the Carbon legislation may be necessary as part of their implementation Plan. process, the provisions of EU regulations do not generally The Carbon Plan notes that display energy certificates require transposition. (DECs) are required for (non-residential) buildings occupied 2 DECC does not hold a central register of other EU by a public authority that are larger than 1,000 m and legislation which may require further measures to complete are frequently visited by the public. In addition, the their transposition into UK law, but we have identified Government are also taking further action and are the following: working with the commercial sector to encourage voluntary take-up in commercial buildings. Commission Decision 2011/13/EU on certain types of information about biofuels and bioliquids to be The role of DECs will soon be complemented with submitted by economic operators to member states. the introduction of the Green Deal. This Commission Decision was made under directive Energy: Prices 2009/28/EC. Where relevant, a published impact assessment will Mr Watts: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy provide an estimate of costs at the time of the transposition and Climate Change what discussions he has had with of directives. Impact assessments for directive 2009/28/EC, energy companies on the cost of energy for vulnerable directive 2009/72/EC, directive 2009/73/EC and directive customers; which companies were involved in any such 2009/31/EC can be found at: discussions; and when and where any such discussions http://www.ialibrary.bis.gov.uk/uploaded/ took place. [90360] 1_20090715120705_e_@@_UKRenewableEnergyStratey2009 OverallImpactAssessmenturn09D683150609.pdf Gregory Barker: DECC Ministers and officials meet http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/consultations/ energy companies on a regular basis to discuss a range govt_response/govt_response.aspx of market issues. http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/consultations/ DECC is committed to helping people, especially cons_co2_stor/cons_co2_stor.aspx low-income vulnerable households, heat their homes Directive 2009/29/EC is due for transposition by 31 more affordably. This winter we are working with energy December 2012 and an impact assessment will be published suppliers to deliver the Warm Home Discount scheme; in the spring. we are also providing heating and insulation measures through Warm Front; and developing our proposals for Directive 2009/119/EC replaces an existing directive Green Deal and the Energy Company Obligation. (2006/67/EC) imposing an obligation to hold minimum stocks of crude oil and/or petroleum products, and EU Law needs to be transposed by 31 December 2012. An impact assessment is in preparation for planned publication Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy in the spring. and Climate Change which EU (a) directives, (b) The directive 2011/70/EURATOM establishing a regulations and (c) other legislation affecting his community framework for the responsible and safe Department require transposition into UK law; and management of spent fuel and radioactive waste needs what estimate he has made of the cost to (i) the public to be transposed by July 2013. DECC will be producing purse and (ii) the private sector of such measures. the transposition table and accompanying impact [89681] assessment during the summer of 2012. 855W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 856W

Feed-in Tariffs method that is less burdensome and more outcomes focussed. This will identify and address specific equalities David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for requirements in people management and service delivery. Energy and Climate Change how much his Department The results can then be summarised in annual equality plans to spend on feed-in tariffs in (a) 2012 and (b) and diversity information reports. 2013. [89595] Food Aid Gregory Barker: Estimates of future costs of solar PV, which make up the bulk of the total cost of the Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for FITs scheme, are extremely uncertain. DECC is currently International Development (1) if he will make it his reviewing its estimates in the light of responses to the policy to endorse the Save the Children Charter to End current consultation on PV tariffs as well as other Extreme Hunger; [90009] recent changes in the market, and will provide updated (2) if he will make it his policy to endorse the assessments for the final impact assessments published Charter to End Extreme Hunger. [90010] alongside the post-consultation policy response. Mr Duncan: I refer the hon. Member to the written Solar Power answers I gave to the hon. Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns), on 17 December 2011, Official Report, column Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for 656W. Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of 6 December 2011, Official Report, column 216W, on solar power, whether his Department made any assumptions on the potential change in energy use in JUSTICE households that have installed solar PV under the Children feed-in tariff prior to the announcement of changes to the scheme. [89070] Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Gregory Barker: We have no robust quantitative evidence what research his Department has commissioned to from the FITs scheme to date about behavioural change measure the subjective well-being of children. [90151] in households that install solar photovoltaic (PV) systems. However, DECC is currently considering what further Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice has not evidence may be needed in relation to the effects of commissioned any research which directly measures the installing microgeneration technologies on household subjective wellbeing of children. However, the department energy use. has commissioned and published a number of studies which indirectly consider children’s wellbeing. These are listed as follows: (1) Giovannini, E. (2011). Outcomes of Family Justice Children’s INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Proceedings—a Review of the Evidence. Ministry of Justice, Departmental Equality London: http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/research-and-analysis/ Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for moj/outcomes-family-justice.htm International Development what equality impact (2) Cassidy, D., and Davey, S. (2011). Family Justice and Children’s Proceedings—Review of Public and Private Law Case assessments his Department has carried out since May Files in England and Wales. Ministry of Justice, London: 2010; and for what purpose in each case. [88586] http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/research-and-analysis/ Mr Duncan: Equality impact assessments since May moj/family-justice-children.htm 2010: (3) Masson, J., Pearce, J. and Bader, K. (2008) Care profiling study. Bristol: University of Bristol. Ministry of Justice Research Closure of Development Awareness Fund Projects, Series, No, 4/08: Communications Division http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/docs/care-profiling- Festivals Outreach Activity, Communications Division study.pdf Overseas Allowance and Travel Review, HR (4) Trinder, L. and Kellett, J. (2007) The longer-term outcomes Voluntary Redundancy scheme for SCS, HR of in-court conciliation. Ministry of Justice Research Series, No. Chapter Phase 1 and 2, Information Systems 15/07, London. DFID Pakistan: Restructure to deliver against ministerial priorities, (5) Trinder, L., Connolly, J., Kellet, J., Notley, C. and Swift, L. portfolio review and BAR offer (2006), Making contact happen or making contact work? The Global Partnerships Department Change Process, Global process and outcomes of in-court conciliation, DCA Research Partnerships Department Series, No. 3/2006, London. IAD Restructure Process, Internal Audit (6) Trinder. L., Connolly, J., Kellett. J. and Notley. C (2005) A Profile of Applicants and Respondents in Contact Cases in Essex. Termination of UCL Governance and Transparency Grant, DCA Research Series 1/05, London. Civil Society Department (7) Smart, C, May, V., Wade, A. and Furniss, C. (2005) Residence HR Passport, HR and contact disputes in court: Volume 2. DCA Research Series, Bilateral Aid Review No. 4/2005. Voluntary Redundancy scheme and Voluntary Exit scheme (8) Smart, C, May, V., Wade, A. and Furniss, C. (2003) Residence In compliance with the guidance given on the Equality and contact disputes in court: Volume 1. DCA Research Series, Act 2010, DFID streamlined its process away from No. 6/2003. Equality Impact Assessments to make it less bureaucratic Where web links are not provided, reports are available during 2011. It introduced Equality screening as a on request from MOJ. 857W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 858W

Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority Departmental Carbon Emissions

Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for how many applications for criminal injuries compensation Justice how much his Department has spent on carbon were received in each year since 1997. [90477] offsetting since May 2010. [89646]

Mr Djanogly: Figures covering the specified period Mr Djanogly: In October 2010 the Ministry of Justice are shown in the following table: (MOJ) purchased carbon credits for MOJ’s air travel totalling £29,809.09. This figure covers air travel in the Financial year Number of applications period of April 2009 to March 2010 plus 80% of forward purchases for April 2010—March 2011. The figure covers 1997-98 77,036 the main department MOJ (including the National 1998-99 78,651 Offender Management Service, HM Courts and Tribunals 1999-2000 78,742 Service) and The National Archives and HM Land 2000-01 76,630 Registry (before the latter’s move to the Department for 2001-02 78,272 Business, Innovation and Skills in July 2011). 2002-03 73,928 2003-04 70,595 2004-05 66,290 Departmental NDPBs 2005-06 63,078 2006-07 60,861 2007-08 53,290 Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2008-09 57,753 pursuant to the answer of 10 January 2012, Official Report, column 278W,on non-government organisations, 2009-10 65,445 for what reason the (a) Criminal Injuries Compensation 2010-11 61,292 Authority, (b) Administrative Justice and Tribunal Council, (c) Office of the Information Commissioner, (d) Judicial Appointments Commission and (e) Commissioner for Departmental Apprentices Victims and Witnesses received a reduction in funding from his Department in 2011-12 as compared to 2010-11; Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice and if he will make a statement. [89947] how many apprentices were employed by his Department between (a) April 2010 and March 2011 Mr Djanogly: The 2010 spending review required and (b) April and December 2011; and how many savings from the Ministry of Justice of well over £2 billion apprenticeships his Department will sponsor between annually by the end of 2014-15. Some of these savings (i) January and March 2012 and (ii) April and March will be made through reform and efficiencies within the 2013. [89210] core Department. However, we are also working with our arm’s length bodies to ensure that they produce Mr Kenneth Clarke: April 2010 to March 2011 and comprehensive savings plans which demonstrate how April 2011 to December 2011 were periods of major they will contribute to the Ministry’s savings while still restructuring and downsizing in the Ministry of Justice. delivering the required level of service. We were unable to run any external apprentice recruitment We are also looking at a number of ways that the campaigns as we did not have any vacancies which were Ministry can run shared services for our arm’s length suitable for apprenticeships during this period. bodies in line with the Ministry’s operating model. This The Ministry of Justice has a well established programme will produce further efficiencies to ensure we are getting of apprenticeships for its staff. The Ministry will continue the best value for money we can from our support to use apprenticeships to raise the skills and capability functions. of existing staff by offering opportunities to develop The Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority received transferable skills and support future recruitment. an additional one off amount of £72 million in 2010-11. The numbers of internal apprentices employed by the This funding allowed them to settle a backlog of cases. Ministry is set out in the following table.

Number of starters Departmental Official Visits per year Running total

2008-09 321 321 Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009-10 412 733 Justice what the cost to the public purse was of official 2010-11 503 1,236 visits undertaken by (a) him and (b) each Minister in 2011-121 583 1,819 his Department in 2011. [89927] 1 To date. Mr Kenneth Clarke: I have provided costs of official For the period January to March 2012, the Ministry visits for Ministers in the Ministry of Justice in the has plans to sponsor 108 apprenticeships. following table. These totals relate to costs incurred by Officials are working with Civil Service HR and Civil ministerial offices for all external visits to non-Ministry Service Learning to agree the Ministry’s commitment of Justice sites and international visit for the period for the period from April 2012 to March 2013. 1 January to 31 December 2011. 859W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 860W

administered by The Salvation Army. Details are provided £ in the following table. In the interests of victim safety Total costs of Total costs of domestic visits to international Combined the region in which the victim was encountered is provided Minister non-MOJ sites visits total cost rather than the parliamentary constituency.

Kenneth 83.07 23,115.29 23,198.36 Referring Clarke Nationality Gender Region organisation Lord 1,311.02 12,447.66 13,758.68 McNally Latvian Female South West Police Nick 308 0 308 Romanian Female West Midlands Police Herbert Polish Male South West NGO Crispin 1,275.35 8,066.11 9,341.46 Polish Female South West NGO Blunt Polish Male Yorkshire NGO Jonathan 291.11 0 291.11 Albanian Female West Midlands UKBA Djanogly N/K Female South East Self-referral Total 3,268.55 43,629.06 46,897.61 Somali Female South East Social Services These totals include costs associated with these visits Romanian Female West Midlands NHS such as travel and accommodation and also include Albanian Female Yorkshire UK.BA costs incurred by accompanying staff where this applies. Equatorial Female East NGO Guinean/ Fishing Catches: Fines Spanish Nigerian Female London Legal Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Representative (1) what the average fine was for over-fishing in the Slovakian Female North West Self-referral latest period for which figures are available; and if he Somali Female West Midlands Police will make a statement; [89844] British Female North West Police (2) how many people have been (a) prosecuted and Bangladeshi Female South East NGO (b) convicted for over-fishing in each (i) police area Bulgarian Female South East Police and (ii) harbour in each of the last 10 years; under Nigerian Female West Midlands UKHTC what legislation each was convicted; and if he will Bangladeshi Female South East UKBA make a statement. [89880] Bulgarian Female South East NGO Romanian Female West Midlands Police Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice Court Proceedings Database holds information on offences provided by the statutes under which proceedings are brought but Import Duties: Tax Evasion not all the circumstances of each case. It is not possible to identify from this centrally held information, of those proceedings under the Sea Fish (Conservation) Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Act 1967, offences specifically related to over-fishing. how many people have been (a) prosecuted and (b) convicted for import duty evasion in each of the last Human Trafficking: Victim Support Schemes five years. [89849]

Mr Binley: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr Blunt: The number of defendants proceeded against what the (a) nationality and (b) gender was of each at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts for suspected victim of trafficking referred to the fraudulent evasion of import duty in England and Trafficking Victim Support Scheme in December 2011; Wales from 2006 to 2010 (latest available) can be viewed in which constituency each such suspected victim was in the following table. found; which agency referred each case; and if he will Annual court proceedings data for 2011 are planned make a statement. [90131] for publication in the spring. Mr Blunt: In December 2011 there were 21 referrals The figures shown in the table reflect all types of to the Government-funded support service for adult import duty evasion and not just those in relation to victims of human trafficking in England and Wales Customs regimes.

Number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates’ courts and found guilty at all courts for fraudulent evasion of import duty, England and Wales, 2006-101,2,3,4 Defendants 2006 2007 20085 2009 2010

Offences Proceeded Convicted Proceeded Convicted Proceeded Convicted Proceeded Convicted Proceeded Convicted

Fraudulent 423 348 236 276 309 262 272 235 273 185 evasion of import duty other than drugs and firearms6 861W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 862W

1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 Convictions for an offence may exceed prosecutions in the same year, as defendants may have a committal hearing at magistrates courts in one reporting period and convicted at the Crown court in the next. The principal offence selected may also change during a set of proceedings. 4 The figures shown in the table reflect all types of import duty evasion and not just those in relation to Customs regimes. 5 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July and August 2008. 6 Offences under sections 50 (2) and (3), 68 (2), and 170 (1) and (2) of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979 except where the goods concerned are drugs or firearms. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice

Offenders: Bank Services It is not possible to provide the information requested relating to requests for (a) discharge or (b) unescorted Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for leave prior to 4 March 2009, the date on which an Justice what estimate he has made of the proportion of electronic caseworking system was introduced. To do so prisoners who do not have a bank account upon their would require manual checks of 4,127 files for 196 days release. [90188] at disproportionate cost. Under the 1983 Act, no restricted patient may have Mr Blunt: Details of the numbers of prisoners with leave in the community without the permission of the bank accounts is not routinely collected, and could be Secretary of State. Permission for such leave is usually obtained only at disproportionate cost by collecting given at the discretion of the Responsible Clinician who information held on individual prisoner records, and is responsible for determining the frequency, duration then collating it in a common format in order to provide and destination of such leave. Permission for unescorted a response. community leave is granted only if, on the basis of the Past evaluations conducted by the Legal Service Research clinical evidence available, the Secretary of State is Centre and Liverpool John Moores university found satisfied that such leave can be taken without putting that the range of prisoners surveyed without access to a others at risk. bank account or other financial products was between The number of requests to discharge restricted patients 40% and 69%. into the community received and granted from 4 March Prisoners’ Home Leave 2009 to end December 2011 are set out in the following table. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Discharge how many requests on behalf of restricted patients to Request for Discharge Discharge be (a) discharged and (b) permitted periods of discharge agreed refused unescorted leave have been made in each of the last five 4 March 2009 to 74 64 10 years; how many such requests were (i) granted and (ii) 31December 2009 refused; and how many such restricted patients have a 2010 110 92 18 record of committing (A) sexual offences and (B) 2011 104 87 17 violent offences. [89738] The number of requests to grant permission to Mr Blunt: Higher courts may add a restriction order responsible clinicians for unescorted community leave when making a hospital order if they are satisfied that to restricted patients from 4 March 2009 to end December this is necessary for the protection of the public from 2011 are set out in the following table. serious harm. A high proportion of restricted patients Unescorted leave will have a conviction for sexual or violent offence. Request for Under the Mental Health Act 1983 (the 1983 Act), a unescorted restricted patient may be discharged either by the First-tier community Permission Permission Mental Health Tribunal or by the Lord Chancellor and leave granted refused Secretary of State for Justice, my right hon. and learned 4 March 2009 to 1,439 1,309 130 Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke). Restricted 31 December 2009 patients have the right to a review of their detention by 2010 1,756 1,574 182 the Tribunal every 12 months. The Tribunal will consider 2011 1,446 1,209 237 evidence presented by the Responsible Clinician for the restricted patient, alongside other clinical evidence. The It is not possible to provide the information requested Tribunal must discharge the patient if it is not satisfied on the number of restricted patients who have been that it is necessary for the protection of the patient or discharged or granted unescorted leave in each of the other that the patient be detained in hospital for treatment last five years who have a record of committing sexual for a mental disorder. or violent offences, without a manual check of over The Secretary of State will discharge restricted patients 6,000 files for 150 days at disproportionate cost. into the community only if he is satisfied, based on the clinical evidence presented, that the patient no longer Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice requires treatment in hospital and that arrangements how many restricted patients were granted unescorted for his safe management in the community have been leave in each of the last five years; how many such made. patients committed offences while on unescorted leave; 863W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 864W and what the name and location is of each secure unit Secure Accommodation from which such patients were on leave. [89657] Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr Blunt: Under the Mental Health Act 1983, no how many restricted patients there were in secure premises restricted patient may have leave in the community in each of the last five years. [89658] without the permission of the Secretary of State. Permission for such leave is usually given at the discretion of the Mr Blunt: Restricted patients may be detained in any Responsible Clinician who is responsible for determining hospital. Almost all restricted patients will be detained the frequency, duration and destination of such leave. in secure psychiatric hospitals. However, patients who Permission for unescorted community leave is granted no longer present a risk to others may be detained on only if, on the basis of the clinical evidence available, rehabilitation or open wards. the Secretary of State is satisfied that such leave can be The number of restricted patients detained in hospital taken without putting others at risk. in each of the past five years was as follows: It is not possible to provide the information requested relating to requests for unescorted leave prior to 4 March Total number of restricted patients detained in hospital at 2009, the date on which an electronic caseworking end of year system was introduced. To do so would require manual checks of over 2,500 files for 60 days at disproportionate 2007 3,911 cost. 2008 4,000 It is also not possible to provide the information 2009 4,340 required on any offences committed while on unescorted 2010 4,446 leave or on the units from which these patients were 2011 4,390 permitted leave. To do so would require manual checks Sentencing of over 6,500 files for 155 days at disproportionate cost. The number of decisions to give Responsible Clinicians Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice permission to grant unescorted community leave to what the average length of custodial sentence was in restricted patients from 4 March 2009 to end December each year between 1995 and 2011. [90480] 2011 are set out in the following table. Mr Blunt: The average length of custodial sentence Permission granted received at all courts in England and Wales in each year between 1995 and 2010 (latest currently available) is 4 March 2009-31 December 2009 1,309 shown in the following table. 2010 1,574 2011 1,209 Court proceedings data for 2011 are planned for publication in the spring.

Average custodial sentence length received for all offences at all courts In England and Wales in each year between 1995 and 2010 Year 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 20081 2009 2010

Average 12.0 12.8 12.7 11.8 11.5 11.4 11.8 12.6 12.6 12.9 12.6 12.4 12.4 13.3 13.7 13.7 custodial sentence length2 (months) 1 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April. July and August 2008. 2 Excludes life and indeterminate sentences. Notes: 1. The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2. Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services within the Ministry of Justice

HEALTH 2011, is given in the following table, together with the rate per thousand of PCT weighted population formula Alzheimer’s Disease: Drugs for 2011-12. Number of prescription items for medicines to treat Alzheimer’s Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for disease that were prescribed in England and dispensed in the Health what the rate of prescription is of anti-Alzheimer’s community in the United Kingdom, by PCT, November 2010 to drugs per weighted population in each individual primary October 20111,2,3 [89871] care trust in England. Rate per thousand Primary care trust Prescription items weighted population4 Mr Simon Burns: The number of prescription items dispensed, by primary care trust (PCT), for the latest Ashton, Leigh and 10,202 27.3 available 12-month period, November 2010 and October Wigan 865W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 866W

Number of prescription items for medicines to treat Alzheimer’s Number of prescription items for medicines to treat Alzheimer’s disease that were prescribed in England and dispensed in the disease that were prescribed in England and dispensed in the community in the United Kingdom, by PCT, November 2010 to community in the United Kingdom, by PCT, November 2010 to October 20111,2,3 October 20111,2,3 Rate per thousand Rate per thousand Primary care trust Prescription items weighted population4 Primary care trust Prescription items weighted population4

Barking and 5,998 36.7 Great Yarmouth 9,147 35.1 Dagenham and Waveney Barnet 12,111 41.8 Greenwich 7,680 35.8 Barnsley 12,445 40.8 Teaching Bassetlaw 4,064 32.3 Halton and St 8,022 20.7 Helens Bath and North 9,176 57.3 East Somerset Hammersmith and 1,829 14.0 Fulham Bedfordshire 8,642 22.5 Hampshire 59,662 50.4 Berkshire East 948 2.8 Haringey Teaching 5,896 28.4 Berkshire West 591 1.6 Harrow 4,287 22.4 Bexley Care Trust 6,289 31.2 Hartlepool 2,778 24.2 Birmingham East 943 2.1 and North Hastings and 314 1.5 Rother Blackburn with 4,125 23.2 Darwen CTP Havering 14,121 61.0 Blackpool 10,445 57.2 Heart of 583 2.1 Birmingham Bolton 8,048 26.6 Herefordshire 3,362 17.6 Bournemouth and 7,662 22.9 Poole Teaching Hertfordshire 4,873 5.1 Bradford and 17,134 31.2 Heywood, 6,634 28.0 Airedale Teaching Middleton and Rochdale Brent Teaching 4,506 18.9 Hillingdon 5,555 25.2 Brighton and Hove 9,122 39.4 City Hounslow 3,077 15.1 Bristol 16,393 40.1 Hull Teaching 8,217 26.0 Bromley 8,009 29.2 Isle of Wight NHS 5,117 31.3 Buckinghamshire 8,709 20.3 Islington 3,654 21.9 Bury 5,053 25.5 Kensington and 3,862 25.9 Chelsea Calderdale 7,083 32.2 Kingston 5,829 41.9 Cambridgeshire 18,763 35.4 Kirklees 14,594 34.1 Camden 4,578 24.8 Knowsley 1,802 9.0 Central and 9,414 20.0 Eastern Cheshire Lambeth 7,623 31.7 Central Lancashire 12,635 25.7 Leeds 42,342 54.1 City and Hackney 2,314 10.9 Leicester City 1,150 3.5 Teaching Leicestershire 1,283 2.1 Cornwall and Isles 12,831 21.3 County and of Scilly Rutland County Durham 23,571 35.9 Lewisham 7,548 33.0 Coventry Teaching 6,989 21.0 Lincolnshire 36,517 45.4 Croydon 756 2.5 Liverpool 8,695 15.4 Cumbria Teaching 19,528 33.6 Luton 2,663 15.3 Darlington 8,268 71.7 Manchester 15,321 28.1 Derby City 5,744 19.4 Medway 2,335 9.2 Derbyshire County 18,261 23.1 Mid Essex 14,009 42.5 Devon 18,342 23.4 Middlesbrough 4,202 24.0 Doncaster 9,229 25.9 Milton Keynes 3,235 15.1 Dorset 7,469 17.8 Newcastle 14,170 49.0 Dudley 1,239 3.7 Newham 9,700 40.8 Ealing 1,321 4.4 Norfolk 25,679 32.8 East Lancashire 12,545 29.2 North East Essex 8,824 25.1 Teaching North East 4,758 26.4 East Riding of 13,536 39.3 Lincolnshire Care Yorkshire Trust Plus East Sussex Downs 1,203 3.4 North Lancashire 20,071 51.9 and Weald Teaching Eastern and 4,037 5.3 North Lincolnshire 5,043 27.3 Coastal Kent North Somerset 8,410 38.4 Enfield 7,983 32.2 North 6,328 27.1 Gateshead 12,040 50.8 Staffordshire Gloucestershire 31,625 55.4 North Tyneside 11,661 48.2 867W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 868W

Number of prescription items for medicines to treat Alzheimer’s Number of prescription items for medicines to treat Alzheimer’s disease that were prescribed in England and dispensed in the disease that were prescribed in England and dispensed in the community in the United Kingdom, by PCT, November 2010 to community in the United Kingdom, by PCT, November 2010 to October 20111,2,3 October 20111,2,3 Rate per thousand Rate per thousand Primary care trust Prescription items weighted population4 Primary care trust Prescription items weighted population4

North Yorkshire 29,672 37.6 West Kent 1,543 2.5 and York West Sussex 28,474 35.9 Northamptonshire 17,209 26.6 Western Cheshire 686 2.7 Teaching Westminster 4,376 22.8 Northumberland 13,836 36.6 Wiltshire 2,580 6.2 Care Trust Wirral 698 1.9 Nottingham City 6,666 21.7 Wolverhampton 1,404 5.0 Nottinghamshire 21,472 30.6 City County Teaching Worcestershire 13,726 24.5 Oldham 9,945 39.3 Unidentified 291 — Oxfordshire 20,789 39.1 Total England 1,484,929 28.2 Peterborough 5,551 36.0 1 Treatments for Alzheimer’s disease are classified in the British Plymouth Teaching 5,869 21.2 National Formulary sections 4.11 ‘Drugs for dementia’. Note that Portsmouth City 9,525 50.0 rivastigmine is also licensed for the treatment of dementia in Teaching Parkinson’s disease. Redbridge 11,664 51.2 2 The Business Services Authority, who reimburse prescriptions and Redcar and 2,520 15.3 from whom prescription data are obtained, also classify idebenone Cleveland as a treatment for Alzheimer’s disease and so prescriptions for this product (amounting to 27 items across England in the period Richmond and 6,739 50.6 November 2010 to October 2011) is included in the table. Twickenham 3 Some PCTs provide these medicines through hospital clinics rather Rotherham 10,760 35.7 than through general practices. Such prescriptions amounted to an Salford 11,108 39.3 additional 154,934 items in the period November 2010 to October Sandwell 4,530 12.9 2011. These prescriptions cannot be allocated to individual PCTs. 4 A weighted capitation formula is used to determine PCT recurrent Sefton 286 0.9 revenue allocations. The formula, based on a programme of Sheffield 39,861 67.7 statistical and economics research, determines the target allocation Shropshire County 11,206 36.7 for each PCT. Its current objectives, set under the previous Solihull 691 3.3 Administration, are to support equal access for equal need and to contribute to the reduction in avoidable health inequalities. Somerset 15,670 28.5 The weighted capitation formula is made up of: South Birmingham 1,398 3.9 a count of the population served by the PCT; South East Essex 10,089 29.9 adjustments to reflect the need for health care, including age and South 9,926 44.5 other factors, such as deprivation, a component boosting allocations Gloucestershire in areas with a low Disability Free Life Expectancy; and an adjustment to reflect unavoidable geographical differences in the cost South Staffordshire 15,022 24.0 of providing health care, the market forces factor (MMF). This is South Tyneside 11,505 60.9 included in the weighted population formula to compensate for South West Essex 13,247 34.0 unavoidable geographical variations in the cost of providing services Southampton City 7,468 32.8 (e.g. staff, buildings, land). Since the cost of prescribed medicines does not vary geographically no adjustment for the MFF has been Southwark 6,221 27.0 made. Stockport 13,684 45.9. The weighted capitation formula has separate components for health Stockton-on-Tees 3,237 15.2 and community services, prescribing and primary care. Teaching Source: Stoke on Trent 8,743 26.9 Prescribing Analysis and CosT tool (PACT) system Suffolk 23,224 39.5 Charities Sunderland 14,085 39.7 Teaching Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Surrey 46,468 50.7 how much funding his Department allocated to (a) Sutton and Merton 12,333 40.5 Centrepoint, (b) Crisis, (c) Skill Force and (d) Shelter Swindon 3,681 19.5 in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12; and if he will make a Tameside and 6,735 25.6 [90395] Glossop statement. Telford and Wrekin 4,801 28.1 Paul Burstow: The Department can confirm that Torbay Care Trust 93 0.5 funding was provided to the named organisations as Tower Hamlets 3,837 18.2 follows: Trafford 11,635 54.0 Wakefield District 12,370 30.2 £ Walsall Teaching 5,714 19.5 Recipient Waltham Forest 5,666 27.1 organisations 2010-11 2011-12 Wandsworth 6,808 30.3 Centrepoint 0 0 Teaching Crisis UK 193,739 213,860 Warrington 1,705 8.1 Skill Force .0 0 Warwickshire 14,844 28.1 Shelter 0 0 West Essex 16,662 68.0 869W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 870W

It should be noted that the funding for 2011-12 In response to this challenge, the Commission represents the latest allocations for this year and additional recommended a cap on people’s lifetime care costs, set funding could be allocated in the remaining months of at between £25,000 and £50,000. the financial year. The Commission also recommended that the upper asset threshold of the current means-tested system (which Continuing Care would remain in place with a cap) be raised to £100,000— and this is the recommendation to which the question Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for refers. The Commission said that the extended means Health what progress he is making in implementing the test would work with the cap to ensure that, if the cap recommendations contained in the report of the Dilnot were set at £35,000, no one has to use more than 30% of their assets paying for care. Commission. [90027] The Commission’s report has formed the basis of Paul Burstow: The coalition programme set out the Government’s recent engagement with stakeholders. This Government’s clear commitment to reforming the system engagement exercise brought together the priorities for of social care to provide much more control to individuals reform from across the social care system, and examined and their carers, and to ease the cost burden that they the trade-offs between them. and their families face. This commitment to reform is The results of the engagement are now published, why we acted quickly to set up the Commission on and Government are using them to inform a White Funding of Care and Support, which published its Paper on social care, and a progress report on funding report in July 2011. reform, which will be published in the spring. Government welcomed the report as a valuable contribution to the debate on social care reform, but Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State funding reform is not the only thing that needs to for Health with reference to the recommendation change in the social care system. We want a package of contained in the report of the Dilnot Commission, if reforms that goes much wider, addresses the key failures he will consider introducing national eligibility criteria of the current system, and ensures that people get the and portable assessments for the provision of adult best possible social care. social care. [90029] This is why we have spent the last few months engaging with stakeholders from across the social care community Paul Burstow: The coalition programme set out the to identify the priorities for reform, and the trade-offs Government’s clear commitment to reforming the system between them. The results of this engagement will of social care to provide much more control to individuals inform a White Paper on social care and a progress and their carers, and to ease the cost burden that they report on funding reform, which we will publish in the and their families face. This commitment to reform is spring. why we acted quickly to set up the Commission on funding of care and support. Continuing Care In its Terms of Reference, the Commission was asked “to examine and provide deliverable recommendations on: Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for how best to meet the costs of care and support as a partnership Health with reference to the recommendations between individuals and the state; contained in the report of the Dilnot Commission, if he will consider raising the means-tested threshold how people could choose to protect their assets, especially their homes, against the cost of care; above which people are liable for their full care costs to how, both now and in the future, public funding for the care £100,000. [90028] and support system can be best used to meet care and support needs; and Paul Burstow: The coalition programme set out the how its preferred option can be delivered, including an indication Government’s clear commitment to reforming the system of the timescale for implementation, and its impact on local of social care to provide much more control to individuals government (and the local government finance system), the and their carers, and to ease the cost burden that they national health service, and—if appropriate—financial regulation.” and their families face. This commitment to reform is In response to this challenge, the Commission made why we acted quickly to set up the Commission on recommendations on a number of aspects of the social Funding of Care and Support. care system, including eligibility. In its terms of reference, the Commission was asked Local authorities are currently required to use the “to examine and provide deliverable recommendations same assessment scale, but are free to set their eligibility on: threshold at any point on this scale. The Commission how best to meet the costs of care and support as a partnership recommended that we set a national threshold at between individuals and the state; “substantial” need. how people could choose to protect their assets, especially their Care users who move from one local authority to homes, against the cost of care; another currently lose their eligibility to care until they how, both now and in the future, public funding for the care are reassessed. The Commission recommended that the and support system can be best used to meet care and support rules be changed so that they retain eligibility until they needs; and are reassessed. how its preferred option can be delivered, including an indication of the timescale for implementation, and its impact on local The Commission’s report has formed the basis of government (and the local government finance system), the Government’s recent engagement with stakeholders. national health service, and—if appropriate—financial regulation.” This engagement exercise brought together these 871W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 872W recommendations with other priorities for reform from reports were commissioned in response to the concerns across the social care system, and examined the trade-offs raised in within the All-Party Parliamentary Group on between them. drug misuse report on physical dependence and addiction The results of the engagement are now published, to prescription and over-the-counter medication. and Government are using them to inform a White Following publication of the reports, I convened a Paper on social care, and a progress report on funding roundtable discussion on the issue of addiction to medicines, reform, which will be published in the spring. which identified a number of concrete actions to take forward. These will be reviewed when the roundtable Dementia group reconvenes later this year. There are no nationally published figures on the Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for number of people being treated for addiction to opiate- Health (1) what the rates of admission were to hospital based prescription, drugs in each primary care trust. for patients over 74 years with a secondary diagnosis of The report on addiction to medicines from The National dementia in each primary care trust in England in each Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse provides of the last 12 months; [89870] information on the yearly, number of patients entering (2) how many bed days were recorded for patients drug treatment services for addiction to prescribed opiates (a) over and (b) under 74 years with a secondary and the numbers of those who entered treatment without diagnosis of dementia in each primary care trust in the associated illicit drug use between 2005 and 2010. Local last year for which figures are available. [89913] prescribing data may have more information on the total number being treated for addiction to opiates-based Paul Burstow: The information requested has been prescription drugs at primary care trust level. placed in the Library. Health Professions Doctors: Foreign Workers Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health what estimate he has made of the additional whether health regulators are notified automatically time taken by (a) GPs, (b) nurses, (c) health visitors, when a doctor is struck off in another country. [90349] (d) pharmacists, (e) dentists and (f) opticians in raising lifestyle health issues in every encounter with Anne Milton: There are no obligations on regulators patients under the proposals of the NHS Future from outside the European economic area to notify the Forum. [90293] General Medical Council when a doctor is struck-off, although in practice the General Medical Council will Anne Milton: No such estimate has been made. It is normally seek an assurance that a doctor is “in good not necessarily about additional time but using that standing” in their home country before registering them. contact time more effectively. There are requirements on European Union competent Health Services: Older People authorities to exchange information with each other under Directive 2005/36/EC (under articles 8 and 56) Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for both when a health professional seeks to register in a Health what the admission rates were to hospital from new member state and at other times. However, the a nursing home or residential care home for people requirements do not currently amount to an obligation aged under 74 in each primary care trust in the latest to notify other competent authorities when a doctor is period for which figures are available. [90401] struck off and the duty is only engaged where a request for information is made by another competent authority. Paul Burstow: The NHS Information Centre for Health The European Commission, in its proposed revision and Social Care collects data on finished admission to the directive on the mutual recognition of professional episodes as part of Hospital Episode Statistics (HES). qualifications has proposed a stronger alert mechanism HES data on the number of finished admission episodes underpinned by a clear duty on member states to share for those aged 74 and under, by source of admission information where there are concerns about the practice and primary care trust of residence, for the year 2010-11, of any health care professional. has been placed in the Library. Drugs: Misuse Medical Equipment

Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health (1) what estimate he has made of the number of what systems his Department has in place to ensure the people being treated for addiction to opiate-based adequacy of the regulatory system for medical devices. prescription drugs in each primary care trust; [90336] [89878] (2) what recent consideration he has given to the recommendations made by the All-Party Parliamentary Mr Simon Burns: Medical devices placed on the Group on Drug Misuse in its report on Physical market in Europe, including the United Kingdom, are Dependence and Addiction to Prescription and Over- done so under the European Medical Devices Directives. the-Counter Medication. [90337] Under these directives member states are required to set up a competent authority who have a mainly post Anne Milton: In May 2011, two evidence-gathering market surveillance role which includes an obligation to reports looking at the problem of addiction to prescription withdraw or restrict devices from the market or from and over-the-counter medicines were published. These being used which may compromise the health and safety 873W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 874W of patients, users or, where applicable, other persons. In NHS: Capital Investment the UK this authority has been delegated by the Secretary of State for Health, my right hon. Friend the Member Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), to the Medicines for Health (1) with reference to his Department’s and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency who have radiotherapy dataset report published in August 2011, a range of enforcement powers and sanctions available what steps he plans to take to ensure part of the £300 under the Consumer Protection Act. They are also million made available for capital expenditure projects responsible for negotiating within Europe any changes is used to address inequalities in the availability of to the directive which become apparent through experience radiotherapy equipment between the North East and in consultation within government and industry. London; [89960] The European Directives covering medical devices (2) with reference to the £300 million announced for are shortly due to be revised and the UK will be pushing new NHS capital expenditure projects, which (a) for a number of improvements to the existing system. foundation hospitals, (b) strategic health authorities and (c) primary care trusts in the North East were informed of this new funding; and how long have they Medical Records been given to apply for it. [90014]

Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health what estimate he has made of the cost to the (1) with reference to his Department’s radiotherapy NHS of providing patients with on-line access to their dataset report published in August 2011, if he will records under the proposals of the NHS Future direct funds from the announced £300 million fund for Forum. [90292] new capital projects towards redressing geographically- based inequalities in the provision of radiotherapy Mr Simon Burns: We are very grateful for the diligent, equipment in England; and if he will make a statement; considered and thorough approach taken by NHS Future [90024] Forum members. We are already engaged in in-depth evaluation of the Future Forum’s report and we will set (2) with reference to the announcement of an extra out our proposals in respect of their recommendations £300 million for new capital expenditure projects in the in the forthcoming Information Strategy. The Information NHS, whether primary care trusts that cancelled Strategy, which will be published by April this year, will capital projects in 2011 due to funding will be able to be informed by analysis of the supporting evidence, revive them through access to the fund; [90025] impacts, costs and benefits—including analysis of equalities (3) when the decision was made to release an extra issues. £300 million for new capital projects in the NHS; when We also welcome the Forum’s proposal that a partnership primary care trusts (PCTs) were informed of his of the Royal College of General Practitioners, the British decision; whether all (a) foundation hospitals, (b) Medical Association, the NHS Commissioning Board strategic health authorities and (c) PCTs in the South and relevant patient organisations should be invited to West were informed; when the closing date is for develop a plan for the roll-out of access to patient applications to the new fund; and if he will make a records by 2015. We will engage with these organisations statement. [90026] on how best to take this forward, including consideration of impacts, costs and benefits, some of which will be Mr Simon Burns: We have identified capital funding dependent on local decisions. which could be made available to the national health service. We are now in discussions with the NHS to see how it could best be spent. However, no decisions have Mental Health Services been taken and no deadlines established at national level. Further announcements will be made when the best possible use of this capital funding has been identified. Nicky Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the adequacy of consideration of patient care made by health Nurses commissioners transferring mental health patients as part of the Quality, Innovation, Productivity and Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for Prevention agenda; and if he will make a statement. Health whether nurses on wards will be required to log [89779] the hourly visits to patients under the Prime Minister’s proposals. [90294] Mr Simon Burns: As set out in “The Operating Framework for the NHS in England 2011-12”, at a Anne Milton: It is for local national health service regional and local level, the national health service has organisations to decide how they monitor hourly ward developed integrated plans that set out how they will rounds. Encouraging nurses to carry out hourly ward drive up the quality and productivity of services by rounds is about showing staff what is already working 2014-15. in some places and what the rest can do to achieve the We have been clear that these plans must demonstrate level of the best. It is not about adding a new burden of how any proposals, which would include any locally bureaucracy to nursing. The newly established independent determined proposals around the care for mental health Nursing and Care Quality Forum will be tasked with patients, will ensure quality. is maintained or improved ensuring the best nursing practice, including hourly whilst generating Quality, Innovation, Productivity and nursing rounds, is spread throughout the NHS and Prevention efficiency savings. social care. 875W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 876W

Plastic Surgery: Breasts Spinal Muscular Atrophy

Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Mr Donohoe: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the (a) number and (b) value was of NHS how much funding his Department allocated to research contracts with PIP for breast implants in each of the on spinal muscular atrophy in the latest period for last 10 years. [89948] which figures are available. [89789]

Mr Simon Burns: We do not hold this information Mr Simon Burns: Estimated spend by the National centrally. We are seeking more robust information about Institute for Health Research (NIHR) on directly-funded the number of women affected from national health research on spinal muscular atrophy (SMA) in 2010-11 service hospitals and private clinics. is £0.4 million. In addition/the NIHR clinical research network is currently hosting one study on SMA.

Mr Donohoe: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Primary Care Trusts: Finance what recent assessment he has made of the standard of NHS care for (a) children and (b) adults with spinal Sir John Stanley: To ask the Secretary of State for muscular atrophy; and if he will make a statement. Health (1) what figures were used by his Department [89790] for each component of the formula used in calculating the funding per head for the West Kent Primary Care Paul Burstow: Currently the 10 specialised commissioning Trust in the latest year for which figures are available; groups for England are consulting on draft service [89349] specifications for neuromuscular services and for wheelchair (2) if he will set out the formula used by his Department services. These service specifications, which set out the in calculating the funding per head for each primary standards of service that all neuromuscular patients care trust in England in the latest year for which figures should expect to receive, will be finalised by April 2012, are available; [89350] when the specialised commissioning groups will start to implement them. (3) what the amount of funding per head was for each primary care trust in England in the latest year for We have made no recent assessment of the standard which figures are available. [89351] of national health service care for those living with spinal muscular atrophy.

Mr Simon Burns: I refer my right hon. Friend to the Mr Donohoe: To ask the Secretary of State for Health written ministerial statement given by the Secretary of if he will bring forward proposals to offer screening for State for Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for the spinal muscular atrophy gene on the NHS. [89791] South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), on 14 December 2011, Official Report, column 102WS. This provided a Paul Burstow: The UK National Screening Committee link to the Department’s primary care trust (PCT) (UK NSC) advises Ministers and the national health allocations webpage where full details of the calculations service in all four countries about all aspects of screening used to determine the 2012-13 PCT allocations are policy and supports implementation. Using research available, including per capita figures for all PCTs. evidence, pilot programmes and economic evaluation, it To allow the national health service financial stability assesses the evidence for programmes against a set of during a period of transition, a uniform uplift of 3% internationally recognised criteria. was applied to all PCTs in their 2012-13 recurrent The UK NSC regularly reviews policy on screening revenue allocations. for different conditions in the light of new research evidence becoming available. Where stakeholder organisations feel that there is enough evidence published Sexual Offences: Health Services in peer reviewed journals to consider screening for a condition they can submit a policy proposal to the UK Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for NSC. Further information is available on UK NSC’s Health what recent discussions he has had with the website at: NHS North Yorkshire on the role of the local primary www.screening.nhs.uk/policyreview care trust in the sexual assault and rape centre being set up in North Yorkshire; and if he will make a statement. [90135] CABINET OFFICE Anne Milton: The development of Sexual Assault Referral Centres (SARCs) is a matter for local Aviation determination. SARCs are commissioned on a collaborative basis by police forces and primary care trusts (PCTs). Mark Field: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet As such, the Secretary of State for Health, my right Office how many interviews the International Passenger hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire Survey conducted in each year from 2004 to 2010; and (Mr Lansley), has had no recent discussions with North what the nationality was of each interviewee. [89918] Yorkshire and York PCT about the establishment of a SARC in the North Yorkshire area. My hon. Friend Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the may wish to approach the chief executive of the PCT, responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have which may hold some relevant information. asked the authority to reply. 877W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 878W

Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated January 2012: Non-consolidated awards are funded from within As Director General for the Office for National Statistics existing pay bill controls, and have to be re-earned each (ONS), I have been asked to respond to your Parliamentary year against pre-determined targets and, as such, do not Question asking how many interviews the International Passenger add to future pay bill costs. Survey conducted in each year from 2004 to 2010: and what the nationality was of each interviewee. [89918] Cabinet Office uses pay allowances as a cost effective I am able to report the answer to this question in the form of a way to recruit and retain staff to posts that require data table, copies of which have been placed in the House of specialist skills or long or un-social hours and to staff Commons Library. performing duties at a higher grade on a temporary basis. Allowances are non-consolidated monthly payments which are paid in lieu of a consolidated increase to Childbirth: Bexley basic salary and cease when staff move from qualifying posts. Mr Evennett: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Table 1 Office what the birth rate was in (a) Bexleyheath and £ Crayford constituency and (b) the London borough of Payment Monetary value paid Monetary value paid in Bexley in the last period for which figures are available. category in 2009-10 2010-11 [90584] (C) Non- 2,264,417 1,856,242 consolidated Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the variable responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have performance asked the authority to reply. related 1 Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated January 2012: awards (D) 1,793,239 1,651,396 As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Allowances have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking 2 what the birth rate was in (a) Bexleyheath and Crayford constituency Total pay bill 124,176,000 127,655,000 and (b) the London Borough of Bexley in the last period for 1 Includes end-year awards, in-year awards and awards paid to staff which figures are available (90584). from other Government Departments in the Cabinet Office 2 Published in the Cabinet Office resource accounts for 2009-10 and The Total Fertility Rate (TFR) has been supplied as this is the 2010-11. most useful measure of an area’s fertility level. The TFR is the average number of live children that a group of women would each bear if they experienced the age-specific fertility rates of the Cabinet Office headcount (excluding agencies) increased calendar year in question throughout their childbearing lifespan. from 1,300 full-time employee (FTE) in Quarter 1 2010 Total Fertility Rate (TFR), selected areas, 2010 to 1670 FTE in Quarter 2 2010 as a result of Machinery of Government changes following the general election Area TFR

(a) Bexleyheath and Crayford 2.01 The 20 largest such payments made in 2009-10 and constituency 2010-11 in Cabinet Office and its NDPBs were in relation (b) Bexley London Borough 2.04 to allowances and non-consolidated performance awards as detailed in table 2 as follows. Table 2 Departmental Pay 20 largest payments made in 2009-10 Number of Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Payment type Payment band payments made how much was paid to officials in his Department and Non-consolidated performance £40,000 to 1 its non-departmental public bodies in (a) bonuses, (b) related award1 £44,999 allowances and (c) other payments additional to basic Non-consolidated performance £30,000 to 1 salary in each of the last two years for which figures are related award1 £34,999 available; what categories of payment may be made to Allowance £20,000 to 1 officials in addition to basic salary; what the monetary £24,999 value is of each category of payment; and what the Non-consolidated performance £15,000 to 8 monetary value was of the 20 largest such payments related award £19,999 made in each of the last two years. [89709] Allowance £10,000 to 9 £14,999 Mr Maude: Table 1 as follows categorises how much was paid to officials in the Cabinet Office in (a) variable 20 largest payments made in 2010-11 non-consolidated performance related awards and (b) Payment type Payment value Payments made allowances in relation to the total Cabinet Office pay Non-consolidated performance £40,000 to 1 bill in each of the last two years for which fully audited related award £44,999 figures are available, 2009-10 and 2010-11. Allowance £15,000 to 1 An element of the Cabinet Office’s overall pay award £19,999 is allocated to non-consolidated awards related to Allowance £10,000 to 14 £14,999 performance. These payments are used to drive high Non-consolidated performance £10,000 to 4 performance and form part of the pay award for members related award £14,999 of staff who demonstrate exceptional performance, for 1 Contractual non-standard senior civil service non-consolidated example by exceeding targets set or meeting challenging awards determined by non-standard contracts, put in place before objectives. 2009-10 and that are no longer in place. 879W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 880W

Departmental Redundancy Pay Mr Lidington: The Government are aware of the tragic incidents that took place in Baku in January 1990 Jon Trickett: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office and during the ensuing conflict between Azerbaijan how much redundancy pay was paid to civil servants in and Armenia over Nagorno-Karabakh. Many thousands his Department in each month between September and of Azerbaijanis and Armenians were displaced from November 2011. [87964] their homes, with deaths estimated to run to several hundred. The responsibility for these deaths and the Mr Maude: No redundancy pay was paid to civil casualties in the conflict, which continues today, are servants in my Department between September and disputed by the two parties. We have not sent letters of November 2011. condolence to either Government. The process of reconciliation for their shared history forms part of the Government Departments: Contracts Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) Minsk group peace process. Keith Vaz: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office We extend our deepest sympathies to all the families how often performance indicators for Government of the victims and call on all sides to redouble their services outsourced to private companies are reviewed. efforts to reach a negotiated settlement. [90034]

Mr Maude: The responsibility for reviewing performance Departmental Pay indicators rests with the individual contracting authorities, as these will vary according to the contract. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Unemployment: Scotland and Commonwealth Affairs how much was paid to officials in his Department and its non-departmental Mr Davidson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet public bodies in (a) bonuses, (b) allowances and (c) Office from which occupational groups people became other payments additional to basic salary in each of the unemployed in (a) Glasgow South West constituency, last two years for which figures are available; what (b) Glasgow, (c) Scotland and (d) the UK in the last categories of payment may be made to officials in 12 months for which figures are available. [90362] addition to basic salary; what the monetary value is of each category of payment; and what the monetary Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the value was of the 20 largest such payments made in each responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have of the last two years. [89696] asked the authority to reply. Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated January 2012: Mr Bellingham: Foreign and Commonwealth Office As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I (FCO) staff may be eligible for certain allowances depending have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking upon where they are posted to work; in the United from which occupational groups people became unemployed in Kingdom or in a mission overseas. (a) Glasgow South West constituency, (b) Glasgow, (c) Scotland Non-consolidated performance pay is focussed on and (d) the UK in the latest 12 months for which figures are available. (90362) rewarding high levels of performance. It is an integral element of the reward package for staff, has to be The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles unemployment statistics for local areas from the Annual Population Survey re-earned each year and does not add to future pay bill (APS) following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions. costs. The following total amounts were paid to staff: Estimates of unemployment for the requested breakdown are not 2009-10—£6,682,843 available from this source. 2010-11—£6,185,854 As an alternative, Tables 1 to 4, shows the number of people who had flowed onto Jobseeker’s Allowance by occupation in the There is also an in year performance award scheme last 12 months, resident in Glasgow South West, Glasgow City, devolved to Directorates to allow them to recognise Scotland and the UK, in each month from November 2010 to achievement by their own staff below the SCS. Nominations November 2011. are moderated within the Directorate for balance and National and local area estimates for many labour market fairness. The following total amounts were paid to staff: statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant 2009-10—£437,874 count are available on the NOMIS website at: http://www.nomisweb.co.uk 2010-11—£494,603 Copies of the tables have been placed in the House of Commons For allowances and other payments in addition to Library. basic salary paid in 2009-10 I refer my hon. Friend to the answer given on 18 November 2010, Official Report, column 903W, by the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt). Azerbaijan: Politics and Government I will write to my hon. Friend, and place a copy in the Library of the House when information for 2010-11 Bob Blackman: To ask the Secretary of State for become available along with a breakdown of the 20 largest Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has monetary values in 2009-10 and 2010-11. written to the Government of Azerbaijan to express his Information for non-departmental public bodies is condolences on the occasion of the anniversary of the not held centrally. To provide this information would death of civilians in Baku on 20 January 1990. [89996] incur disproportionate cost. 881W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 882W

Departmental Responsibilities European External Action Service

Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he plans and Commonwealth Affairs what the monetary value to reorganise the structure of senior officials in his is of the UK’s contribution to the EU External Action Department with responsibility for European affairs. Service in 2011-12; and what it is estimated to be in [89375] each of the next five years. [90196] Mr Lidington: Following a review of resources in Europe Directorate last year, a new Additional Director Mr Lidington: The UK contributes to the EU budget post has been created to work in partnership with the as a whole and not to specific programmes within it. existing Europe Director. There is not, therefore, a specific contribution to the EU External Action Service expenditure. The latest forecast EU Law of the UK’s contributions to the EU budget is presented in the Office for Budget Responsibility’s Economic and John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Fiscal Outlook of November 2011: and Commonwealth Affairs how many of the http://budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/economic- regulations his Department brought into force through and-fiscal-outlook-november-2011/ (a) primary legislation, (b) secondary legislation and (c) other means originated from proposals by the Falkland Islands: Sovereignty European Commission in (i) 2010 and (ii) 2011. [88965] Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Mr Lidington: In the period from 1 January 2010 to and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he has taken in 31 December 2011 the FCO brought forward four orders response to the decision by Argentina and other South which related to EU obligations. Three of these were American countries to close their ports to ships flying specification orders made pursuant to the European the flag of the Falkland Islands. [89655] Communities Act 1972 relating to EU/third country agreements. The fourth order related to technical Mr Jeremy Browne: As the Secretary of State for amendments to UK law to take account of changes in Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. terminology introduced by the Lisbon treaty, for example Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) replacing references to ‘the European Community’ with said in his written ministerial statement of 10 January references to ‘the European Union’. The orders are: 2012, Official Report, columns 5-6WS, we consider that 2010/766 The European Union (Definition of Treaties) the decision to close ports to ships flying the Falklands (Stabilisation and Association Agreement) (Bosnia and flag has no legal basis. While we do not accept Mercosur’s Herzegovina) Order 2010 announcement, our priority has been to ensure that 2011/742 The European Union (Definition of Treaties) trade and commercial links between the Falklands and (Stabilisation and Association Agreement) (Republic of Serbia) South America are not compromised by this political Order 2011 declaration. Brazil, Chile and Uruguay have told us that 2011/743 The European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Partnership all Falklands-related commercial shipping will continue and Cooperation Agreement) (Republic of Indonesia) Order 2011 to enjoy access to their ports, in accordance with domestic and international law, if they are flying the Red Ensign 2011/1043 The Treaty of Lisbon (Changes in Terminology) Order 2011. or another national flag when docked. We will continue to protest against Argentina’s attempts to deny the Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign people of the Falkland Islands their right to trade and Commonwealth Affairs which EU (a) Directives, openly and without hindrance. (b) Regulations and (c) other legislation affecting his Department require transposition into UK law; and Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign what estimate he has made of the cost to (i) the public and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has purse and (ii) the private sector of such measures. had with (a) the EU, (b) his counterparts in other EU [89695] member states and (c) the EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs on the decision of Argentina and other Mr Lidington: EU legislation for which the Foreign South American countries to close their ports to ships and Commonwealth Office (FCO) is responsible is rarely flying the flag of the Falkland Islands; and what action required to be transposed into UK law. The FCO is will be taken at an EU level in response to this decision. responsible for ensuring that EU/third country agreements [89656] are specified pursuant to the European Communities Act 1972 and, for example, the FCO was responsible for Mr Jeremy Browne: As the Secretary of State for bringing three specification Orders into force from 2010 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. to 2011. The Government assesses that the three agreements Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) so specified did not impose any burdens on private said in his written ministerial statement of 10 January industry. The fourth piece of legislation which was 2012, Official Report, columns 5-6WS, we consider that made during the same period is an Order which made the decision to close ports to ships flying the Falklands technical amendments to UK law to take account of flag has no legal basis. We have raised our concerns with changes in terminology introduced by the Lisbon Treaty, all EU member states, the EU Commission, the office for example replacing references to ’the European of the EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Community’ with references to ’the European Union’. others within the European External Action Service. There are no costs to the public purse or the private The Falkland Islands is recognised under EU Treaty as sector in the UK as a result of these technical amendments. a UK Territory associated with the EU. 883W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 884W

Fiji: Religious Freedom implemented. A senior member of the NTC Election Committee confirmed to our ambassador on 11 January Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for that the 10% quota contained within the current draft Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he was a minimum rather than a limit. The UN Support has received on treatment of members of the Methodist Mission in Libya, with whom our embassy is in close Church in Fiji; and if he will make a statement. [89625] touch, is supporting the NTC’s Election Committee, offering technical advice and discussing how to take Mr Jeremy Browne: Our high commission in Suva into account the many representations received by that regularly reports on the political situation in Fiji. Committee. The British Government are deeply concerned by Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign reports of restrictions on freedom of expression, peaceful and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he assembly and freedom of association being placed upon has had with the National Transitional Council of members of the Methodist Church in Fiji. Libya on the involvement of women in the democratic On 12 October 2011 I raised our concerns with the transition process. [90453] Fijian high commissioner to London, expressing dismay at these developments and noting that this latest action Alistair Burt: When the Secretary of State for Foreign by the authorities in Fiji can only serve to increase their and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the isolation from the international community. Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), spoke to On 7 January 2012 Fiji’s interim Prime Minister, Prime Minister al-Kib in November 2011 to congratulate Commodore Frank Bainimarama, lifted the Public him on his appointment, he underlined the importance Emergency Regulations; however there are reports that of ensuring that women play an integral role in the the Public Order Act has been strengthened. Our High evolving democratic process. The UK co-funded the Commission in Suva will continue to maintain close first Libyan National Women’s Conference in November contact with the Methodist Church and will continue to 2011 during which women put their concerns directly to lobby the interim Government in Fiji to remove restrictions Chairman Jalil and Transitional Government Prime regarding peaceful assembly and freedom of association. Minister al-Kib. During my visit to Tripoli in December 2011, I spoke to senior members of the Transitional Gifts and Endowments Government and civil society groups about the importance of ensuring the full participation of women in shaping Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for the democratic future of Libya. Our ambassador in Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what guidance is Tripoli met a senior member of the National Transitional given in relation to the receipt of gifts from foreign Council Election Committee on 11 January to discuss governments on official visits; and whether such guidance the recently published draft electoral legislation and to is given to members of the royal family. [89446] clarify the terms under which women would be included in the democratic process. Officials in London and Mr Bellingham: The guidance for Ministers accepting Tripoli also supporting Libyan women’s groups in gifts during official visits comes under the ministerial developing effective mechanisms to ensure that women’s code issued by Cabinet Office and available on the views are heard and taken into consideration. Cabinet Office website1. The guidance and procedures governing the acceptance, Libya: Nuclear Power classification, recording, retention and disposal of gifts by members of the royal family is published on the Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign official website of the British monarchy2. and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has 1http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/sites/default/files/resources/ made of the extent to which information that has ministerial-code-may-2010.pdf recently become available in Libya indicates the 2http://www.royal.gov.uk/LatestNewsandDiary/Pressreleases/ involvement of A. Q. Khan in the previous Libyan 2003/Guidelinesandproceduresrelatingtogifts.aspx Government’s nuclear programme. [89954]

Libya: Females Alistair Burt: The involvement of A.Q. Khan and his network in supplying the Libyan nuclear programme Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign between 1997 and 2003 has been extensively documented. and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he Libya declared to the International Atomic Energy has (a) received on and (b) made to the Libyan Agency (IAEA) that it received documentation related authorities on the draft election law proposed by to nuclear weapon design and fabrication, as well as Libya’s electoral commission allocating 10 per cent. of pre-assembled centrifuges and components. No information seats to women. [90452] has come to light that changes our assessment of the role of the Khan network, and our current priority for Alistair Burt: Foreign and Commonwealth Office Libya’s nuclear programme is unchanged, namely the officials have been contacted by a number of non- securing of Libya’s yellowcake stocks under IAEA governmental organisations to express concerns about supervision. the draft legislation. Our embassy in Tripoli has been in contact with the National Transitional Council (NTC) Nigeria: Politics and Government and a range of Libyan civil society representatives, including representatives of women’s groups, about the Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign terms of the draft electoral legislation, including the and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment he terms of the quota for women and how this would be has made of the political situation in Nigeria. [89510] 885W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 886W

Mr Bellingham: The elections held in Nigeria last to combat the threat of terrorism in Nigeria. During the April were widely regarded as the most credible since Prime Minister’s visit to Nigeria in July 2011, the Prime Nigeria’s return to democracy in 1999, and have Minister and President Jonathan agreed that the UK strengthened the political and democratisation process would provide assistance and expertise to help strengthen there. and reform Nigeria’s security apparatus and structures, Increases in terrorist attacks and outbreaks of sectarian including helping Nigeria establish a COBR equivalent violence have posed serious challenges over past months for use in situations of national emergency. The UK has to the Nigerian Government. Since the new year, protests shared its expertise on counter-terrorism policy, doctrine and strikes against the Nigerian Government’s decision and legal frameworks, and also provided assistance to remove fuel subsidies have also caused disruption. with specific capabilities such as managing the consequences The subsidy was economically unsustainable, but it is of terrorist attacks. In all cases the co-operation has important that subsequent economic reforms benefit emphasised compliance with international human rights. the people of Nigeria. The British Government have supported non-governmental organisations in northern Nigeria to facilitate dialogue In September last year the Secretary of State for between communities, and the Department for International Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Development supports programmes that aim to address Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), some of the root causes of insecurity, such as poverty and I discussed the general security situation with the and unequal division of power and resources. We will Nigerian Foreign Minister, Olugbenga Ashiru. I reiterated continue to monitor changes in the Nigerian political our commitment to working with the Nigerian authorities landscape, and to support the Nigerian Government’s to combat the threat of terrorism in Nigeria. During the aim of making Nigeria a peaceful and prosperous nation. Prime Minister’s visit to Nigeria in July 2011, the Prime Minister and President Jonathan agreed that the UK would provide assistance and expertise to help strengthen and reform Nigeria’s security apparatus and structures, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER including helping Nigeria establish a COBR equivalent Departmental Pay for use in situations of national emergency. The UK has shared its expertise on counter-terrorism policy, doctrine Priti Patel: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister how and legal frameworks, and also provided assistance much was paid to officials in his office in (a) bonuses, with specific capabilities such as managing the consequences (b) allowances and (c) other payments additional to of terrorist attacks. In all cases the co-operation has basic salary in each of the last two years for which emphasised compliance with international human rights. figures are available; what categories of payment may The British Government have supported non-governmental be made to officials in addition to basic salary; what organisations in northern Nigeria to facilitate dialogue the monetary value is of each category of payment; between communities, and the Department for International and what the monetary value was of the 20 largest such Development supports programmes that aim to address payments made in each of the last two years. [89710] some of the root causes of insecurity, such as poverty and unequal division of power and resources. The Deputy Prime Minister: For the purposes of We will continue to monitor changes in the Nigerian corporate administration and financial management, political landscape, and to support the Nigerian my office is an integral part of the Cabinet Office. I refer Government’s aim of making Nigeria a peaceful and the hon. Member to the answer given by the Minister prosperous nation. for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General, the right hon. Member for Horsham (Mr Maude) today. Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what (a) support and (b) advice his Department is providing to the Nigerian EDUCATION authorities on the security situation in Nigeria. [89511] Charities: Finance Mr Bellingham: The elections held in Nigeria last April were widely regarded as the most credible since Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Nigeria’s return to democracy in 1999, and have how much funding his Department provided to (a) strengthened the political and democratisation process Action on Addiction, (b) Adoption UK, (c) the Adoption there. and Fostering Information Line, (d) the Child Bereavement Increases in terrorist attacks and outbreaks of sectarian Charity, (e) Well Child and (f) each of East Anglia’s violence have posed serious challenges over past months children’s hospices in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12; and if to the Nigerian Government. Since the new year, protests he will make a statement. [89768] and strikes against the Nigerian Government’s decision to remove fuel subsidies have also caused disruption. Tim Loughton [holding answer 16 January 2012]: The subsidy was economically unsustainable, but it is The Department has not provided funding with any of important that subsequent economic reforms benefit these organisations in financial years 2010-11 and 2011-12. the people of Nigeria. Children In September last year the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), Education what recent assessment he has made of the and I discussed the general security situation with the number of children under local authority care who are Nigerian Foreign Minister, Olugbenga Ashiru. I reiterated considered to have additional needs in (a) the UK and our commitment to working with the Nigerian authorities (b) each local authority. [90005] 887W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 888W

Tim Loughton: The number of children who had of State for Education the power to create pilot schemes been looked after continuously for 12 months at 31 to test the use of direct payments to secure services for March 2010 in England who had a special educational children and young people who have been assessed as need was 20,100 (68.7% of the total number of children having special educational needs. who had been looked after continuously for 12 months). This information is contained in the Statistical First Children’s Centres Release (Outcomes for Children Looked After by Local Authorities in England, as at 31 March 2010) which was Elizabeth Truss: To ask the Secretary of State for published on 16 December 2010 at: Education how much has been spent on (a) Sure Start, http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000978/ (b) early years entitlement and (c) Sure Start index.shtml maternity grants in each year since 1997. [89107] Information is also published within this release at local authority level. This information is contained in Sarah Teather [holding answer 12 January 2012]: The table LA8, which can be accessed in the above Statistical information requested is as follows: First Release (via the Excel link “These tables includes Sure Start local authority tables showing SEN, offending, substance Sure Start funding has been provided via a number of misuse and health care of looked after children” on the mechanisms throughout the life of the programme. release’s web page). Initially it was provided directly to Sure Start local Information for the year ending 31 March 2011 will programmes and subsequently to local authorities through be released in spring 2012. the Sure Start Early Years and Childcare Grant and its The Department is responsible for children who are predecessor the General Sure Start Grant. looked after by local authorities in England, information The first Sure Start local programmes (SSLPs) were on children who are looked after in Scotland, Wales set up in 1999-2000 and received a single capital allocation and Northern Ireland is collected by the devolved for the period 1999 to 2006 of £479,638,144. Administrations; however this is subject to different The spend by local authorities on Sure Start is shown legislation and collected via different data systems. in Table 1. Children: Disability Table 1 £ million David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Revenue Capital Total Education (1) what oversight his Department has over 1999-2000 3 0 3 implementation of local authority policies for the 2000-01 33 0 33 distribution and use of direct payments for disabled 2001-02 105 0 105 children; [89712] 2002-03 174 0 174 (2) what his policy is on the standardisation of local 2003-04 149 3 152 authority policies on how parents may spend direct 2004-061 1,559 232 1,791 payments for disabled children; [89713] 2006-07 979 245 1,224 (3) what representations he has received on the 2007-08 1,342 436 1,778 policies of local authorities to restrict the use of direct 2008-09 1,304 344 1,648 payments for disabled children so as to prohibit their 2009-10 1,524 330 1,854 use for after school clubs and school holiday activities. 1 In 2004-06 local authorities received a two-year allocation. [89714] Complete expenditure information on Sure Start for 2010-11 is not yet available. The Sure Start allocations Sarah Teather: ‘Community care, services for carers for local authorities in 2010-11 were: and children’s services (Direct Payments) guidance’England 2009 provides guidance to local authorities making Revenue: £1,189,133,720 direct payments. The guidance sets out how local authorities Capital: £367,499,500 might manage and administer direct payments based on Total: £2,206,633,220. local needs, priorities and resources. In addition to the spend reported in Table 1, local Local authorities are advised to monitor and keep authorities also received funding from 1998 to 2003 for under review the direct payment to ensure that it continues which local authority spend data are not available. to meet individual need and that the scheme is operating These allocations are shown in Table 2. effectively. Table 2 The purpose of the direct payment is to give flexibility £ million and choice to families with disabled children that will Revenue Capital Total enable them to secure an individualised rather than standard package of support. 1998-99 140 0 140 1999-00 192 0 192 Over the last year, the Department has been asked to 2000-01 353 0 353 review one case involving the use of direct payments for disabled children in relation to after school clubs and 2001-02 449 0 449 school holiday activities. 2002-03 501 23 524 This Government are committed to exploring how Since April 2011 the Department for Education has direct payments can be expanded beyond existing provided local authorities with funding through the arrangements. New powers in the Education Act 1996, Early Intervention Grant, which replaces a number of inserted by the Education Act 2011, give the Secretary centrally-directed ring-fenced grants for children, young 889W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 890W people and family services. The Early Intervention Grant Departmental Grants is a non-ringfenced grant and provides funding to enable local authorities to act more strategically and target Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Education investment early, where it will have the greatest impact, (1) how much funding his Department allocated in total with greater flexibility to respond to local needs and to (a) the British Association for Adoption and Fostering, drive reform. The Early Intervention Grant allocated (b) the British Association for Early Childhood Education, £2,231,981,341 to local authorities in 2011-12 and the (c) the British Dyslexia Association, (d) Catch 22, (e) indicative allocation for 2012-13 is £2,365,200,001. It is Children England, (f) the Children’s Legal Centre, (g) important to note here that the 2011-12 figure includes the Daycare Trust, (h) the Family and Parenting Institute, funding in recognition of pilot activity but funding for (i) Family Action, (j) the Family Rights Group, (k) pilots in 2012-13 is still to be confirmed. the National Children’s Bureau, (l) National Family Early Years Entitlement Mediation, (m) the NSPCC and (n) Netmums Ltd in Funding for free early education places for three and (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12; and if he will make a four-year-olds is provided through the Dedicated Schools statement; [88336] Grant (DSG), which supports the majority of education (2) how much funding his Department allocated to provision for children aged three to 16. Local authorities, (a) Parenting UK, (b) Parentline Plus, (c) Parentline in consultation with their Schools Forum, decide how Plus, Got a Teenager, (d) Personal Finance Education best to distribute funding across their locality and local Group, (e) Pre-School Learning Alliance, (f) Relate, authorities set their own local rates of funding to early (g) The Prince’s Trust, (h) The Princess Royal Trust, years providers. No national funding allocation figure is (i) Raleigh International and (j) Time For Families in available. (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12; and if he will make a Local authorities report on financial expenditure through statement. [87933] section 251 returns. The Early Years Single Funding Formula (EYSFF) was introduced in every LA from Sarah Teather [holding answer 10 January 2012]: The April 2011. Because of the way section 251 operated following table sets out DFE spend with each of the previously to the introduction of the EYSFF, it is not organisations: possible to obtain complete data on free early education spend for LAs before the EYSFF. The estimated spend £ on three and four-year-old early education for 2011-12 2011-12 2010-11 (actuals) (spend is £1.9 billion. (actuals) (full to end of Sure Start Maternity Grants Organisation year) December 2011) The Sure Start maternity grant is administered by the The British Association for 1,318,173 889,865 Department for Work and Pensions. The expenditure Adoption and Fostering on maternity payments and Sure Start maternity grants The British Association for 50,000 104,855 is shown in Table 3. Early Childhood Education Table 3 The British Dyslexia 1,099,581 541,394 Association Expenditure Type of payment (£ million) Catch 22 928,288 77,670 Children England 916,564 688,825 1997-98 Maternity Payment 20 The Children’s Legal Centre 433,397 370,388 1998-99 Maternity Payment 18 The Daycare Trust 394,527 319,491 1999-2000 Maternity Payment 17 The Family and Parenting 8,845,231 180,591 2000-011 Maternity Payment 2 Institute (SSMGs phased in)1 Sure Start Maternity 42.4 Family Action 98,325 0 Grant The Family Rights Group 608,458 298,705 2001-02 Sure Start Maternity 61.2 The National Children’s 11,882,717 919,442 Grant Bureau 2002-03 Sure Start Maternity 110.5 National Family Mediation 210,000 0 Grant The NSPCC 6,961,971 2,535,715 2003-04 Sure Start Maternity 120.5 Netmums Ltd 814,465 582,075 Grant Parenting UK 250,000 61,473 2004-05 Sure Start Maternity 119.5 Grant Parentline Plus (includes 3,459,785 158,628 figures for Got a Teenager 2005-06 Sure Start Maternity 120.6 which was absorbed into the Grant Family Lives work in July 2006-07 Sure Start Maternity 120.1 2011) Grant Personal Finance Education 3,316,049 0 2007-08 Sure Start Maternity 123.1 Group Grant Pre-School Learning 1,390,675 474,696 2008-9 Sure Start Maternity 133.3 Alliance Grant Relate 3,129,708 1,444,473 2009-10 Sure Start Maternity 138.8 The Prince’s Trust1 133,695 357,333 Grant The Princess Royal Trust 513,359 104,651 2010-11 Sure Start Maternity 130.9 Grant Raleigh International 61,952 0 1 Sure Start Maternity Grants (SSMGs) replaced Maternity Payments Time for Families 180,000 79,372 in 2000-01. SSMGs were phased in from 27 March 2000 to replace 1 Merged with Fairbridge in 2011: 2011-12 funding is to merged Maternity Payments hence expenditure on both 2000-01. organisation. 891W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 892W

The amount paid to each organisation is readily the last two full financial years. These payments are available from the Department’s finance systems. central to the Department’s total reward strategy and Allocations often vary, sometimes considerably, between help to drive high performance and act as a positive the initial funding decision and the final amount provided. incentive for staff. For this reason, we answer funding questions using Total value of performance-related pay received by spend data rather than allocation data. staff in DfE by grade (please note these figures have The figures in the table above reflect only direct been rounded and payments relate to performance in funding from DFE via national grants and contracts. the previous financial year) The voluntary and community sector receives money indirectly from DFE through a number of routes, including £ funding through Executive Agencies (and previously Grade 2011/12 2010/11 arm’s length bodies), through the money we give to local authorities and from services commissioned from EA 59,000 70,000 schools. EO 160,000 160,000 HEO 190,000 200,000 The voluntary and community sector plays and will SEO 210,000 240,000 continue to play, a vital role in developing and delivering services for children, young people and families. However, G7 280,000 360,000 in a tough financial climate where public finance constraints G6 100,000 130,000 are required, we must focus the money we have effectively Deputy director 190,000 530,000 and ensure the best use of limited public funds. Only Director 60,000 180,000 activities of national significance are being funded centrally Director general 0 48,000 by the Department. Inevitably the scale and scope of Total 1,249,000 1,918,000 these activities will change year on year in order to address national priorities identified. While we can’t break down the performance related pay by grade for previous years, information can be Departmental Pay provided on the total non-consolidated performance related awards made in the Department and its predecessors, John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for the Department for Children, Schools and Families and Education what the total value was of performance- the Department for Education and Skills, since 2007. related pay received by staff in his Department at each This shows the total number of staff who received a grade in each of the last five years. [90020] bonus compared to the average numbers of staff in post over the year. The policy has always been to apply a Tim Loughton: The Department for Education (DfE) percentage approach to the award of the bonuses by was created on 12 May 2010. grade, to ensure that all grades have an equal opportunity An accurate split of non-consolidated performance to be awarded any bonuses which are in payment. awards by grade is not available from the previous Total paid as non-consolidated performance related Departments’ legacy systems. The following table shows awards compared to the number of staff in post (please the information which can be provided, which relates to note these figures have been rounded)

Total paid as non- consolidated Total number of Average staff performance related staff receiving numbers over the Department and predecessor Departments awards (£) Bonus year

2011/12 Department for Education 1,250,000 650 2950 2010/11 Department for Education (from 12 May 2010) 1,900,000 1,400 2740 2009/10 Department for Children, Schools and Families (until 11 May 1,900,000 1,400 3030 2010) 2008/09 Department for Children, Schools and Families 1,900,000 1,400 2821 2007/08 Department for Education and Skills 1,900,000 1,200 2900

Early Intervention Grant in recognition of pilot activities being undertaken by a number of local authorities. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for A breakdown of the allocation, detailing the level of Education pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member funding each local authority received, can be found at: for Gateshead of 10 March 2011, Official Report, http://www.education.gov.uk/childrenandyoungpeople/ column 1229W, on Early Intervention Fund, how much earlylearningandchildcare/a0070357/early-intervention-grant- funding he allocated to the Early Intervention Fund in frequently-asked-questions/ 2011-12; and how much each recipient received. [89841] ?cid=LAemail&pla=25feb2011&type=email

Sarah Teather: £2,231,981,341 was allocated to local Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for authorities through the Early Intervention Grant in Education if he will take steps to ensure that the Early 2011-12. The total amount of funding allocated to the Intervention Grant allocation for 2011-12 does not Early Intervention Grant has increased since the question represent a real terms funding reduction for local asked by the hon. Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns), authorities after inflation is taken into account. [88532] 893W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 894W

Sarah Teather: The Early Intervention Grant came Nursery Schools into existence in April 2011 and brought together existing funding streams from the Department for Education, Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for excluding schools funding, into a single non-ringfenced Education how many disadvantaged two-year olds will grant. At the 2010 spending review it was necessary to be eligible for free nursery care in (a) South Thanet reduce the amount of funding given to local authorities constituency, (b) South East and (c) England. [89308] to begin the work of repairing the public finances. The allocations for EIG in 2011-12 represent an average Sarah Teather: The Chancellor of the Exchequer, the 10.5% reduction compared with the predecessor grants right hon. Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), announced in 2010-11. However, by removing the ringfences from in the Autumn Statement of 29 November 2011, Official the funding, the EIG gives LAs the flexibility to respond Report, columns 799-810, that the early education to local needs and drive reform, while supporting a entitlement for two-year-olds will be expanded to around focus on early intervention services across the age range. 260,000 children. The Government intend to take a The core EIG in 2011-12, excluding pilot funding, phased approach to the implementation of the new was £2223 million but the core EIG, excluding pilot entitlement. Around 20% of all two-year-olds will be funding, in 2012-13 will be worth £2365 million, which eligible from September 2013. From 2014, the entitlement represents an increase of 6.4%. will be extended to around 40% of two-year-olds. Faith Schools: Transport The Government have published indicative figures for how many children will be eligible in each local Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for authority area in the first phase of the entitlement in Education if he will provide additional ring-fenced 2013. These are available as part of the current Early funding to local education authorities for the purpose Education and Childcare consultation, at the following of funding home-to-school transport for pupils in faith link: schools. [90390] www.education.gov.uk/consultations We estimate that around 136,400 two-year-olds in Tim Loughton [holding answer 17 January 2012]: England, including 16,800 in the South East, and 3,300 The vast majority of home to school transport, for both in Kent will be eligible for the entitlement in 2013. statutory and discretionary activity, is funded through Estimated numbers of eligible children are not available Revenue Support Grant, paid by the Department for by parliamentary constituency. Communities and Local Government, and locally generated We will publish further proposals in due course on council tax. In addition, the Secretary of State allocated eligibility criteria to reach 40% of two-year-olds from £85 million (for 2011-12 and 2012-13) to help local 2014. authorities meet their statutory duties in respect of home to school transporter low-income families. In the last spending review period (SR10) the Government Pupils: Assessments announced an end to ring-fenced funding, other than for some education and health funding. Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what information his Department holds on Mothers: Kent variations in examination results between different examination boards prior to the introduction of GCSEs. Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for [88182] Education what proportion of mothers aged 16 to 19 were in (a) education, (b) employment and (c) Mr Gibb: The Department only holds summary statistics training in (i) Chatham and Aylesford constituency, (ii) on the CSE (Certificate of Secondary Education) and Medway unitary authority and (iii) Tonbridge and GCE (General Certificate of Education) O-level Malling borough council in each of the last 10 years. examinations as published in the ‘Statistics of Education’ [90339] series. These are based on a sample of pupils and do not provide information which enables results from different Tim Loughton: The following table shows the proportion examination boards to be compared. of teenage mothers who participated in education, employment and training (EET) between 2002 and 2011. Data at constituency and borough level are not Schools: Sports available and the figures cannot be broken down for education, employment and training separately. John Cryer: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what recent assessment he has made of the effect of Percentage of teenage mothers EET reductions in school sports partnerships on the level of As at March participation in school sports. [89531] each year: 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2010 2011 Tim Loughton: We have made no recent assessment of this. Schools should provide competitive sport for all Kent 1— 1— 1—2215222925 LA pupils as part of a rounded education. To ensure this is Medway 1— 1— 1—2620312832happening, we are refocusing the programme of study LA for National Curriculum physical education so that it is Kent 24 10 17 23 16 23 29 26 clear that all pupils should play competitive sport regularly and throughout the year. It is for schools to decide how best Medway to organise school sport, whether through partnerships 1 Data for 2002-04 available at Connexions Partnership level only. of by other means. By creating the School Games, the 895W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 896W

Government are also encouraging a range of sports to and Northern Ireland is collected by the devolved improve both the quality and quantity of sporting administrations; however this is subject to different competitions on offer. legislation and collected via different data systems.

John Cryer: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what assessment he has made of the level of participation Special Educational Needs in triathlon events among school children. [89564] Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Tim Loughton: We have not assessed participation in how many children aged two years have a statement of triathlon in schools in the last year and have not received special educational needs. [88669] any representations from expert bodies such as Ofsted or the Association for Physical Education about any Sarah Teather: The Department only holds special significant change in participation levels. Triathlon is educational needs status, by age, for pupils in publically not a compulsory part of the National Curriculum and funded schools (including nursery schools). The majority there are no plans to make it so. The PE and Sport of two-year-olds do not attend such institutions. Survey 2009-10 found that 5% of all schools provided triathlon for their pupils. Within the institutions for which we do hold data, in January 2011 there were 257 pupils aged two (aged two Schools: Swimming as at 31 August 2010) with a statement of special educational needs (SEN) in schools1 in England. The latest available information on pupils with special John Cryer: To ask the Secretary of State for Education educational needs is published as Statistical First Release what assessment he has made of changes in the level of 14/2011 ’Special Educational Needs in England: January participation in swimming in schools in the last year. 2011’ at: [89532] http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001007/ index.shtml Tim Loughton: We have not assessed participation in swimming in schools in the last year and have not The Government are putting in place a range of received any representations from expert bodies such as measures to improve the early identification of SEN. Ofsted, the Amateur Swimming Association or the An additional 4,200 health visitors are being recruited Association for Physical Education about any significant and trained so that early health and development reviews change in participation levels. Swimming is a compulsory at age two are better able to pick up children’s needs part of the National Curriculum for all primary pupils. early; the Early Years Foundation Stage Profile is being The PE and Sport Survey 2009-10 found that 84% of all revised to focus on three prime areas of development— schools provided swimming for their pupils. communication and language; physical development; and social and emotional development; and an Early Swimming is one of the sports included in the new Language Development Programme is being put in School Games which we are creating to encourage more place to help staff working with children to identify competitive sport in schools. needs and provide appropriate support. 1 Social Services: Children Includes nursery schools, state-funded primary and secondary schools, special schools and pupil referral units. Excludes pupils in independent and general hospital schools. Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what recent estimate he has made of the number of children in the care of social services in (a) Third Sector the UK and (b) Milton Keynes. [90006] Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Tim Loughton: The number of looked after children how much funding his Department allocated to (a) in England as at 31 March 2011 was 65,520. The Centrepoint, (b) Crisis, (c) Skill Force and (d) Shelter number of looked after children in Milton Keynes local in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12; and if he will make a authority as at 31 March 2011 was 270. This information statement. [90396] is contained in the Statistical First Release (Children Looked After by Local Authorities in England (including adoption and care leavers)—year ending 31 March Tim Loughton [holding answer 17 January 2012]: 2011) which was published on 28 September 2011 at: Based on the information available in the Department’s finance system the funding to the named organisations http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001026/ in financial year 2010-11 is given in the following table, index.shtml together with the spend to-date, as at 31 December Information on the number of children looked after 2011, for the financial year 2011-12. in each local authority for the years ending 31 March 2007 to 2011 is contained in table LAA1 and has been £ placed in the House Libraries. The information can also Funding in financial be accessed in the above Statistical First Release (via the year 2010-11 Funding 2011-12 Excel link “Local Authority summary tables”) on the release’s web page. Centrepoint 0 0 Crisis 0 0 The Department is responsible for children who are SkillForce 177,640 130,398 looked after by local authorities in England, information Shelter 0 0 on children who are looked after in Scotland, Wales 897W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 898W

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS The latest SFR was published on 27 October 2011: http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current/ Apprentices: Day Care Co-operatives Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills which professionals working Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, in the child care sector are able to undertake apprenticeships Innovation and Skills what steps (a) his Department under the Children’s Care Learning and Development and (b) those bodies for which his Department is Apprenticeship Framework. [89452] responsible are taking to mark UN Yearof the Co-operative 2012; and if he will make a statement. [88601] Mr Hayes: The Children’s Care Learning and Development Apprenticeship Framework is currently Mr Prisk: The Department for Business Innovation available in Wales and covers the following job titles: and Skills (BIS) will work closely with Cabinet Office, Nursery Assistant, Cynorthwydd Cylch, Out-of-School the Mutuals Taskforce and with Co-operatives UK to Childcare Assistant, Playgroup Assistant, Crèche Assistant, develop and take full advantage of opportunities to Nursery Practitioner, Senior Nursery Practitioner/Room celebrate the achievements of co-operative organisations Leader, Child Minder, Centre Practitioner, and Crèche during the United Nations International Year of Leader/Practitioner. Co-operatives. In England the Children and YoungPerson’s Workforce The Mutuals Taskforce has recently indicated it will Apprenticeship Framework covers similar roles: Early play a co-ordinating role for Departments to support YearsWorker/Assistant, Care Worker/Assistant, Assistant the International Yearof Co-operatives, with Co-operatives YouthSupport and Community Worker, Nursery Worker/ UK leading the Taskforce’s work in this area. Supervisor, Child Minder, Nursery Nurse/Nursery Teaching Assistant, Residential Care Worker, Foster Carer, and Coventry Gateway Short Break Carer. Under the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Act, 2009, a person working for another in any of these for Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has had roles is able to undertake an apprenticeship. discussions with the Secretary of State for Transport Full details about all apprenticeship frameworks including on the Coventry Gateway project. [89804] which professions they cover and any specific entry requirements can be found on the Apprenticeship Mr Prisk: Senior officials from the Department for Frameworks Online website: Business, Innovation and Skills, the Department for http://www.afo.sscalliance.org/ Communities and Local Government, the Department for Transport, and the Highways Agency (HA) met with representatives of the promoters of the Coventry Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Gateway project and Coventry City Council. The potential Business, Innovation and Skills how many registered interaction of the A45 Tollbar End improvement on the child minders (a) enrolled on and (b) completed an implementation of the Gateway project was discussed. apprenticeship in each year since 2005; and if he will It was agreed that the HA would have further detailed make a statement. [89453] discussions with the promoters with the aim of ensuring that the two projects are compatible. Mr Hayes: Information about the number of registered child minders that enrolled on or completed an EU Law apprenticeship is not available. The following table shows the number of apprenticeship Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, programme starts and apprenticeship programme Innovation and Skills which EU (a) Directives, (b) achievements in the ‘Children’s Care Learning and Regulations and (c) other legislation affecting his Development’ framework, between 2005/06 and 2009/10, Department require transposition into UK law; and the latest year for which final data are available. what estimate he has made of the cost to (i) the public Apprenticeship starts and achievements in the ‘Children’s Care purse and (ii) the private sector of such measures. Learning and Development’ framework, 2005/06 to 2009/10 [89677] 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10

Starts 12,330 13,210 15,260 17,250 20,110 Mr Davey: The information requested is not held Achievements 6,230 7,160 7,610 9,610 12,130 centrally and is currently being researched. I will write Note: to my hon. Friend as soon the information is available All figures are rounded to the nearest 10. and a copy of my letter will be placed in the Libraries of Source: the House. Individualised Learner Record Information on the number of apprenticeship framework Fossil Fuels starts and achievements is published in a supplementary table to the quarterly Statistical First Release (SFR): Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ Business, Innovation and Skills what recent support the statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_supplementary_tables/ Export Credits Guarantee Department has given to Apprenticeship_sfr_supplementary_tables/ fossil fuel energy projects operated by Petrobras. [89318] 899W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 900W

Mr Davey: Export Credits Guarantee Department Enhanced Renewal Grant Fund but which could not be (ECGD) recently agreed to support a line of credit for funded, to consider how their projects might be helped US $1 billion to Petrobras to finance the export of to proceed in the future. supplies from UK based companies. Further details are I made a written ministerial statement on this matter contained in ECGD’s Notice of Support published on on 12 January 2012, Official Report, columns 17-18WS. its website: www.ecgd.gov.uk/news-and-events/news/petrobras-line-of- Further Education: Higher Education credit-announced on 30 November 2011. No export contracts have yet Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, been financed under the line of credit. Innovation and Skills what proportion of courses leading to a (a) higher national diploma, (b) higher Further Education: Finance national certificate and (c) foundation degree were taught in further education colleges in academic year David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for (i) 2009-10 and (ii) 2010-11. [88305] Business, Innovation and Skills whether he plans to take steps to secure funding for any further education Mr Hayes: The numbers and proportions of full infrastructure projects that meet the criteria of phase person equivalents studying higher national diploma, two of the enhanced renewal grant fund but could not higher national certificate and foundation degree courses be funded from the fund. [89533] at further education colleges and higher education institutions in England are shown in the following table. Mr Hayes: Since May 2010, this Government have Figures have been provided by the Higher Education made £175 million available to support further education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) for the 2008/09 college capital investment. I will continue to work to and 2009/10 academic years. Information for the 2010/11 secure the investment our colleges need in the future. In academic year is not available. More information on addition, I have asked officials in the Skills Funding higher education in further education is available at this Agency to continue to work with those colleges that met link to the HEFCE website: the criteria and quality thresholds for the Phase Two http://www.hefce.ac.uk/regions/profiles/

Full person equivalents1 studying higher national diploma (HND), higher national certificate (HNC) and foundation degree courses2. English higher education institutions (HEIs) and further education colleges (FECs), academic years 2008/09 and 2009/10 Academic year HND HNC Foundation degree Type of provision Number Percentage Number Percentage Number Percentage

2008/09 FEC taught and registered 8,360 41.0 11,070 54.8 19,660 21.5 Franchised to FEC from HEI 3,490 17.1 4,615 22.9 25,970 28.4 HEI taught and registered 8,545 41.9 4,460 22.1 40,900 44.7 Taught at non-FEC/HEI — — 35 0.2 4,995 5.5 provider Total 20,400 100.0 20,185 100.0 91,525 100.0

2009/10 FEC taught and registered 7,820 41.9 10,390 59.2 23,475 22.1 Franchised to FEC from HEI 3,115 16.7 3,775 21.5 29,470 27.8 HEI taught and registered 7,705 41.3 3,370 19.2 46,550 43.9 Taught at non-FEC/HEI 20 0.1 20 0.1 6,615 6.2 provider Total 18,655 100.0 17,555 100.0 106,110 100.0 1 In order to accurately measure higher education provision where students are taught at more than one institution or are studying more than one subject, head-counts are split across the institutions/subjects involved in proportion to the activity in each—this results in counts of full person equivalents. This gives a more accurate measure than direct head-counts, where the student would have to be arbitrarily assigned to one of the teaching institutions and/or one of the subjects. 2 Covers students of all ages and domiciles on full-time and part-time courses. Note: Numbers in this table are on a full person equivalent basis and have been rounded up or down to the nearest five, so components may not sum to totals. Percentages are based on unrounded numbers and given to one decimal place. Source: HEFCE analysis of the Higher Education Statistics Agency Student Record and Skills Funding Agency Individualised Learning Record F05

Overseas Investment Mr Prisk: UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) does not keep consolidated figures of investments by UK companies overseas, although UKTI trade services can Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for be used to support UK companies planning to invest, Business, Innovation and Skills in which countries or investing, overseas. This can include circumstances in UKTI has secured most UK investment in the latest which companies are moving some jobs and operations period for which figures are available; and from which offshore in order to make their UK business more countries UKTI has secured the most investment in the competitive. UK in the latest period for which figures are available. [90464] 901W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 902W

On securing investment into the UK, UKTI has been £ billion involved in the following, in 2010/11, in the top five countries: 2011/12 1.5 2012/13 3.0 Number of Total 2013/14 4.0 Number of Number of safeguarded number of projects new jobs jobs jobs 2014/15 4.5 4. There will also be a third party evaluation of the programme. USA 199 4,209 17,559 21,768 Japan 87 1,739 1,362 3,101 India 71 1,707 739 2,446 UK Trade and Investment Canada 54 844 488 1,332 China 43 928 452 1,380 Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for Total 454 9,427 20,600 30,027 Business, Innovation and Skills if he will publish UK Source: Trade and Investment’s proposed programme of UKTI database sectorally-focused overseas missions. [90229] Public Sector: Private Sector Mr Prisk: UK Trade and Investment is currently Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for finalising its overseas missions programme for 2012-13 Business, Innovation and Skills what plans UK Trade and will publish the details in due course. and Investment has for future use of private sector delivery contracts. [90178] UK Trade and Investment: Finance Mr Prisk: UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) has an ambitious target to double its client base to 50,000 over Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for the next four years. The continued development and Business, Innovation and Skills what funding his expansion of outsourcing services to private sector deliverers Department has allocated to UKTI in each year from will play a key role in achieving this target. UKTI’s 2010 to 2015. [89309] trade services in the English regions have been outsourced for a number of years, and its inward investment delivery Mr Prisk: UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) is a operations were outsourced in 2011, to PA Consulting, joint Department of the Department for Business, on an incentivised basis with rewards linked to performance. Innovation and Skills (BIS) and the Foreign and UKTI proposes to adopt this approach for new trade Commonwealth Office (FCO). UKTI draws on its parent service delivery contracts. Overseas, UKTI currently Departments for some business support functions on a delivers the bulk of its services to UK companies in shared service basis. This includes accommodation and China through the private sector, and is looking at aspects of Finance, HR and related IT support systems. further options for overseas delivery through the private The following table sets out the funding BIS has sector. allocated to UKTI in each year from 2010 to 2015. Trade Fairs £ million 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will publish UK Admin allocation 40.0 39.3 38.0 36.5 32.7 Trade and Investment’s Tradeshow Access Event Estimate of 12.0 11.0 10.0 8.0 7.0 Programme for 2012. [90176] overhead allocation charge for accommodation, Mr Prisk: The Tradeshow Access programme for IT etc 2012/13 is available on UK Trade and Investment’s Programme — — 8.0 6.0 6.0 website. The programme calendar can be found at: allocation1 www.ukti.gov.uk/tap Total 52.0 50.3 56.0 50.5 45.7 1 Trade Promotion Announced in the autumn statement Cm 8231. UK Trade and Investment: Manpower Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how he plans to assess the effectiveness of the High Value Opportunities Scheme. Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for [90177] Business, Innovation and Skills how many full-time equivalent staff UK Trade and Investment employed in Mr Prisk: The High Value Opportunities programme (a) 2010 and (b) 2011; and how many such staff it will is assessed through the following targets: employ in (i) 2012 and (ii) 2013. [88632] 1. Support for a minimum of 400 UK businesses per year, at least 300 of which should be small and medium-sized enterprises. Mr Prisk: UKTI is not an employer in its own right; 2. At least 70% of businesses helped to access High Value for the majority of its human resource requirements it Opportunities to report that UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) draws on civil service staff employed by one or other had significant favourable influence; as measured through the of its two parent Departments—the Department for UKTI Performance and impact measurement system (PIMS). Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS), the Foreign and 3. To support UK businesses to win overseas contracts as Commonwealth Office (FCO), and staff from its private follows: sector contractors. 903W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 904W

The number of full-time equivalents (FTEs) working As a result, we expect there to be a net increase in the on behalf of UKTI for 2009-10 and 2010-11 is as number of FTEs employed by our private-sector delivery follows, along with estimates for 2011-12 and 2012- 13. partners, over this two year period of 133 FTEs in Further detail is available from our annual reports 2011-12 and a further 125 FTEs in 2012-13. available at: 2009-10—2,350 http://www.ukti.gov.uk/uktihome/aboutukti/item/114708.html WOMEN AND EQUALITIES 2010-11—2,270 EU Law http://www.ukti.gov.uk/uktihome/aboutukti/item/171020.html 2011-12—2,403 estimate Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for Women and Equalities which EU (a) directives, (b) regulations and 2012-13—2,528 estimate (c) other legislation affecting the Government Equalities In 2011-12 and 2012-13, UKTI is committed to meeting Office require transposition into UK law; and what the reductions set out under its spending review 2010 estimate she has made of the cost to (i) the public purse settlement. These focus on reducing administrative staff and (ii) the private sector of such measures. [89703] in London, funded by BIS. The Autumn Statement (Cm 8231) provided additional resources from 2012-13 to Lynne Featherstone: I refer my hon. Friend to the increase private sector front-line delivery, with the aim answer given by the Minister for Immigration, the hon. being to double the number of companies helped to Member for Ashford (Damian Green), on 17 January export. 2012, Official Report, columns 659-60W, to PQ 89673. ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 18 January 2012

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 738 WALES—continued Engagements...... 738 First Great Western...... 733 Engagements...... 746 Funding Formula...... 737 European Working Time Directive...... 745 Human Trafficking ...... 735 Inward Investment ...... 730 WALES...... 729 Public Sector Employment...... 736 Allocation of Funds...... 734 Sayce Review...... 732 Apprentices (Wales Office)...... 736 Small Businesses ...... 737 Claimant Count...... 729 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 18 January 2012

Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 39WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 42WS Foreign Affairs Council: 23 January - General Criminal Records Certificates: Taxi Drivers...... 42WS Affairs Council: 27 January ...... 39WS PETITION

Wednesday 18 January 2012

Col. No. Col. No. PRESENTED PETITION Definition of Gypsy Status...... 5P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 18 January 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 897W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Apprentices: Day Care ...... 897W continued Co-operatives...... 898W Local Government Finance: Waste Disposal ...... 811W Coventry Gateway...... 898W EU Law...... 898W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 837W Fossil Fuels ...... 898W Arts...... 837W Further Education: Finance...... 899W Departmental Manpower...... 838W Further Education: Higher Education ...... 900W Departmental Pay ...... 838W Overseas Investment ...... 899W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 839W Public Sector: Private Sector ...... 901W Departmental Work Experience...... 840W Trade Fairs...... 901W Trade Promotion...... 901W UK Trade and Investment...... 902W DEFENCE...... 823W UK Trade and Investment: Finance ...... 902W Afghanistan: Defence...... 823W UK Trade and Investment: Manpower ...... 902W Armed Forces ...... 823W Counter-Terrorism: Finance ...... 823W CABINET OFFICE...... 876W Defence Equipment ...... 824W Aviation ...... 876W Departmental Apprentices ...... 824W Childbirth: Bexley...... 877W Departmental Data Protection...... 825W Departmental Pay ...... 877W Departmental Manpower...... 825W Departmental Redundancy Pay ...... 879W Departmental Pay ...... 826W Government Departments: Contracts ...... 879W HMS Affray...... 829W Unemployment: Scotland ...... 879W Military Aircraft: Helicopters ...... 829W Military Bases...... 830W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT . 809W Navy: Manpower ...... 830W Asylum ...... 809W Radioactive Waste: Dalgety Bay ...... 831W Children...... 809W Security...... 831W Electrical Safety: Housing...... 810W Fire Services: Standards...... 810W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 886W Housing: Regulation ...... 810W Departmental Pay ...... 886W Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION...... 886W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 816W Charities: Finance...... 886W Coroners ...... 816W Children...... 886W Cybercrime: Prosecutions...... 819W Children: Disability...... 887W Departmental Manpower...... 819W Children’s Centres ...... 888W Entry Clearances: Married People ...... 820W Departmental Grants...... 890W Khat...... 820W Departmental Pay ...... 891W North Yorkshire Police...... 820W Early Intervention Grant ...... 891W Police Custody: Death...... 821W Faith Schools: Transport...... 893W Police: Misconduct...... 822W Mothers: Kent...... 893W Police Stations: Opening Hours ...... 822W Nursery Schools...... 894W Prostitution...... 822W Pupils: Assessments...... 894W Stephen Lawrence ...... 822W Schools: Sports ...... 894W Schools: Swimming...... 895W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 815W Social Services: Children...... 895W Catering ...... 815W Special Educational Needs...... 896W Newspaper Press ...... 816W Third Sector...... 896W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 855W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 851W Departmental Equality ...... 855W Biomass ...... 851W Food Aid...... 856W Energy...... 851W Energy Performance Certificates...... 853W JUSTICE...... 856W Energy: Prices ...... 853W Children...... 856W EU Law...... 853W Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority...... 857W Feed-in Tariffs...... 855W Departmental Apprentices ...... 857W Solar Power...... 855W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 858W Departmental NDPBs...... 858W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Departmental Official Visits...... 858W AFFAIRS...... 812W Fishing Catches: Fines ...... 859W Air Pollution: Heathrow Airport...... 812W Human Trafficking: Victim Support Schemes ...... 859W Departmental Catering ...... 813W Import Duties: Tax Evasion...... 860W Departmental Debt Collection...... 813W Offenders: Bank Services...... 861W Food Supply...... 813W Prisoners’ Home Leave...... 861W Recreation Spaces ...... 814W Secure Accommodation ...... 864W Sewers: Planning ...... 814W Sentencing...... 864W Waste Policy Review...... 814W Water: Consumption...... 815W TRANSPORT ...... 846W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 815W Coventry Gateway Project...... 846W Motor Vehicles: Licensing...... 847W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 879W Motor Vehicles: Lighting ...... 847W Azerbaijan: Politics and Government...... 879W Motor Vehicles: Testing ...... 847W Departmental Pay ...... 880W Motorways: Speed limits...... 848W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 881W Queen Elizabeth II Bridge...... 849W EU Law...... 881W Roads: Accidents ...... 849W European External Action Service ...... 882W Roads: Greater London ...... 850W Falkland Islands: Sovereignty ...... 882W Thameslink Railway Line: Rolling Stock ...... 850W Fiji: Religious Freedom...... 883W Transport: Subsidies...... 850W Gifts and Endowments...... 883W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 851W Libya: Females...... 883W Libya: Nuclear Power...... 884W TREASURY ...... 832W Nigeria: Politics and Government ...... 884W Adam Werritty...... 832W Care Quality Commission: Redundancy Pay...... 832W HEALTH...... 863W Children: Day Care ...... 833W Alzheimer’s Disease: Drugs ...... 863W Devolution: Finance ...... 833W Charities ...... 868W Import Duties: China...... 833W Continuing Care ...... 869W Insurance ...... 834W Continuing Care ...... 869W Pensions...... 834W Dementia ...... 871W Public Sector Debt ...... 834W Doctors: Foreign Workers...... 871W Renewable Energy: Scotland ...... 835W Drugs: Misuse...... 871W Revenue and Customs: Telephone Services ...... 835W Health Professions ...... 872W Taxation: Bingo ...... 836W Health Services: Older People ...... 872W Taxation: Self-assessment...... 836W Medical Equipment ...... 872W Travel: Insurance...... 836W Medical Records ...... 873W VAT: Sanitary Protection ...... 837W Mental Health Services ...... 873W Wealth...... 837W NHS: Capital Investment...... 874W Nurses...... 874W WALES...... 811W Plastic Surgery: Breasts...... 875W Fuel Rebate...... 811W Primary Care Trusts: Finance ...... 875W Police Numbers...... 812W Sexual Offences: Health Services...... 875W Violent Crime...... 812W Spinal Muscular Atrophy...... 876W Youth Unemployment...... 812W Col. No. Col. No. WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 904W WORK AND PENSIONS—continued EU Law...... 904W Remploy...... 841W Social Security Benefits: Bexley...... 841W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 840W Unemployment: Graduates...... 842W Atos Healthcare ...... 840W Work Capability Assessments ...... 842W EU Law...... 840W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 18 January 2012

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 729] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Wales Prime Minister

Detainee Inquiry [Col. 751] Statement—(Mr Kenneth Clarke)

Keeping of Primates As Pets (Prohibition) [Col. 764] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Sheryll Murray)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Local Government Finance Bill [Col. 767] Considered in Committee

Tees Valley Spinal Unit [Col. 855] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Port of Southampton [Col. 265WH] Tennis [Col. 288WH] Northern Rail Hub [Col. 296WH] Melanoma [Col. 320WH] Female Employment (Scotland) [Col. 327WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 39WS]

Petition [Col. 5P] Presented Petition

Written Answers [Col. 809W] [see index inside back page]