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The
Interview 2020
Fair Observer
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International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2372-9112
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CONTENTS
About Fair Observer 7 Share Your Perspective 8
Naomi Wolf Talks Homophobia, Feminism and “Outrages 9 Ankita Mukopadhyay & Naomi Wolf
Immigrants Provide a Net Gain to the US 15 Kourosh Ziabari & Kwame Anthony Appiah
Can Telling Stories Through Data Help Fight Misinformation in India? 19 Ankita Mukopadhyay & Govindraj Ethiraj
Talking African Literature with Chigozie Obioma 23 Kourosh Ziabari & Chigozie Obioma
What the “Deal of the Century” Means for Israel and Palestine 26 Kourosh Ziabari & Antony Loewenstein
The BJP Rejects the Idea of a Hindu Rashtra 32 Ankita Mukopadhyay & Sudhanshu Mittal
India’s Health-Care System Is in Shambles 38 Nilanjana Sen & I.P. Singh
Will Qatar Succeed in Hosting the First Carbon-Neutral World Cup? 41 Kourosh Ziabari, Mohamed Abdallah & Yusuf Bicer
Three Scenarios for a Post-Coronavirus World 44 Valerio Alfonso Bruno & Emanuele Parsi
Why Has Islamophobia Risen In America 47 Kourosh Ziabari & Arun Kundnani
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The One-State Reality to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict 51 Kourosh Ziabari & Ian Lustick
Kashmir’s History and Future Meet in Literature 55 Vikram Zutshi & Rakesh Kaul
What a Serial Traveler Thinks of Iran 60 Kourosh Ziabari & Kamila Napora
Governments Must Recognize the Importance of the Youth 63 Kourosh Ziabari & Kristeena Monteith
What Explains Donald Trump’s Foreign Policy? 70 Kourosh Ziabari & Stephen Zunes
The American Empire: Maintaining Hegemony Through Wars 74 Ankita Mukopadhyay & Peter Kuznick
The Rapper Breaking Down Borders With Dreams 83 Sophia Akram & Potent Whisper
Climate Change Will Impact the Human Rights of Millions 85 Kourosh Ziabari & Ashok Swain
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Naomi Wolf Talks Homophobia, Ankita Mukhopadhyay: Your latest book, Feminism and “Outrages” “Outrages: Sex, Censorship and the Criminalization of Love,” has been the target
of immense criticism in the UK. Why do you Ankita Mukhopadhyay & Naomi Wolf think that this situation has been blown out of January 8, 2020 proportion? Lawyer Helena Kennedy — who
also proofread your book — has said that the criticism reflects the “legal and homophobic In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer legacy of British colonialism.” Do you think talks to author Naomi Wolf. this connection has affected the reception of
your book? he year 1990 witnessed several Naomi Wolf: After the incident, I have had a revolutionary changes, one of which was chance to reflect on the criticism. Right before the release of “The Beauty Myth: How T this incident, which eventually translated into a Images of Beauty Are Used Against Women,” viral attack, I was talking to British audiences written by Naomi Wolf. The “Beauty Myth” about Britain’s vulnerability if it ever faced a highlighted how male dominance is maintained coup. I was also talking about building a by holding women to certain standards of beauty, searchable database for UK law. Daily Clout, my and it became an instant hit with readers civic data company, has a searchable database for worldwide. US law. On Daily Clout, anyone can look up any Wolf is now known as one of the world’s law and lobby. This project has been very foremost feminists, who is vocal about issues that effective. affect not just women but various marginalized The thing “Outrages” does — and this was my communities. argument to the British public right before the Last year, Wolf’s latest book, “Outrages: Sex, incident happened — when you are vulnerable to Censorship and the Criminalization of Love,” a coup, you can see what laws underpin decisions came under severe criticism after a BBC such as Brexit, for instance. However, access to broadcaster called out two misinterpretations of a information complicates the lives of everyone in legal term. Since then, “Outrages” has received power. Daily Clout has complicated the lives of severe criticism from readers in the UK. Wolf has legislators in the US who wanted to lie about law. herself been targeted and accused of gross The platform makes it much more difficult for inaccuracies in all her previous works. people on either side of the spectrum to say The issue that gets lost in these discussions is things like, “This health bill covers cancer care.” the reason Wolf wrote the book in the first place. Daily Clout enables people from places as far off “Outrages” seeks to highlight the historical as Tennessee to tweet and say, “No, this bill marginalization of gay men, particularly the doesn’t cover cancer care.” I can see why that’s protagonist of the book, the poet John Addington problematic for anyone who wants to a country to Symonds. Even with its flaws, the book is a move left or right. detailed historical representation of the life of gay You bring up the question of colonial law. I people in Victorian England. totally agree with you. But I am not going to say In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer that A caused B. It may well be that this is a talks to Naomi Wolf about “Outrages,” her weirdly viral, unprecedented relentless attack on reasons for writing the book, the life of John my reputation because people disagreed about a Addington Symonds, and how “The Beauty poet. However, following the incident with my Myth” is still relevant today. book, there has been opposition research to take The text has been lightly edited for clarity. me off the chessboard. Despite agreeing to
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correct the two references in the book, I am now Mukhopadhyay: I would like to know a little facing difficulty in even getting “Outrages” more about “Outrages,” since that discussion published in the US! has got lost in the euphoria around the The reason I wrote “Outrages” is because I historical and legal inaccuracies. What is the didn’t want people to just sit around and believe book about, and what motivated your decision that the British government hasn’t made terrible to focus on homosexuality? Why did you mistakes. There’s a lot of good scholarship on choose to tell your story through the character postcolonial law, but it’s not usually written for a of John Addington Symonds, a rather broad audience. If you want people to trust the unknown poet? British government to not make horrible Wolf: I decided to write about Symonds mistakes, then “Outrages” is not a comfortable because my thesis adviser at Oxford is an expert book. in that field. He knew that I was interested in One of the calling cards of the conservatives is Victorian sexuality. He gave me giant copies of the mythology of an unblemished past in relation Symonds’ letters and I was captivated when I to the rest of the world. For example, a lot of read them. They start as the letters of a teenager, people in America don’t want to hear [Noam] who was born at a time when laws in Britain Chomsky talk about the role of the American criminalized speech and same-sex male intimacy government in undermining popular leaders of in new ways. It’s this voice of a young man, who the world. is only searching for true love. The story of “Outrages” categorically He renounces his teenage love for a young confirms that homophobia was exported to man, as his father explains to him that there’s no several places in the world by the British future for the relationship. He has written a long government. It was exported to cultures that love poem to his beloved but has to go back and didn’t have homophobia built into their own write an apology, because when he renounces his traditions and practices. We feel the legacy of love affair in 1862, one is awarded life that today, particularly in the former colonies. In imprisonment for performing sodomy. India, it took a Supreme Court ruling to undo that All Symonds wants is to be a British poet, law that was created for purposes of social critic and cultural essayist, but over and over the control. There are countries like Egypt, where institutions turn on him. Fellows of his college at men are still tortured and arrested effectively by Oxford call him in to examine him because a the police and agents of the state using the fellow student turned in some of his personal narratives that have been exported to the rest of letters, and now he has to justify his character and the world in the 19th century. moronic interests. He barely manages to save his The bigger picture is not just restricted to fellowship and later, when he wants to be a colonial law. I am seeing homophobia and professor of poetry at Oxford, which is a high transphobia being weaponized in current honor, there’s public shaming for who he is, and struggles for power in Britain. This is a narrative he knows that has no chance of being a professor. separate from former colonial countries. If you There are several scandals that he has to face in read “Outrages,” it’s harder to take in this his lifetime. He compels himself to marry a whipping up of hysteria by the state and media on woman because his dad dictates to him that he LGBTQ+ issues. My argument — and it’s a has to do it. The woman he marries respects him strong one — is that these “moral panics'' around a lot and they form a bond, but he writes in his homophobia were used cynically in the past by letters painful accounts of what it is like to be governments to attain agendas that have nothing married to someone and have a honeymoon but to do with the fear of gays, lesbians and have no desire. He was completely honest about transgenders. documenting his earliest life and the organic
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nature of same-sex desire because at that time it variation as a spectrum of natural behavior rather was described as a vice. He observed himself to than a moral failing or vice. document his notes. He won after his death, but in his lifetime, he He argued that this was ennobling, and love didn’t know that he would win. Symonds never shouldn’t be criminalized. He had four daughters stopped believing in love and the love he who loved him. He was a beloved husband and experienced. In his work, he left instructions to father although he was a gay man. This was true the future generations on how to decode his of most gay men at that time. secret memoirs so that a secret story would Even if he was living his double life, he kept emerge that he couldn’t tell in his lifetime about having love affairs with men. When he got older, his great love. That’s John Addington Symonds, he went to Venice to be with a community of gay and that’s why he’s such a great character. And men. Throughout his life, he just wanted to write his story brings forth so many important themes the truth about love, but it was getting more and in the LGBTQ+ movement. more dangerous as British law was inventing In my book, I point out that newspapers more and more laws on obscenity and free reported death sentences and arrests for sodomy speech, for example, the Obscene Publication Act during Symonds’ time, and in the case of two of 1857. Britain’s invention of obscenity got they weren’t carried out. People were being exported around the world to justify cracking transported overseas for life sentence and hard down on colonial populations. labor. The Obscene Publication Act made it dangerous to publish anything that could be Mukhopadhyay: Gay sex and sodomy were a considered obscene. In addition to all this, political issue in Victorian England, and it Symonds’ friends were being arrested in France continued to be an issue long after that. for soliciting sex. This act destroyed Symonds’ Wolf: British historians contesting my career in Britain. Symonds tried to tell the truth argument in “Outrages” argue that laws against about love, but it was illegal. He wrote in ways so sodomy and same-sex relations did not get worse that he could escape the law. He wrote allegories, in and after 1835, but they don’t address colonial historical biographies of gay men in the past, he law in their argument. I just had an argument would publish love poems changing the pronouns with a historian who said that there was no of lovers. All this while, he was secretly keeping evidence of things worsening for men in Britain a secret memoir and sodomy poems locked away in the 19th century. I pointed out to him his in a metal box. omission of colonies. Gay men were being There were these romantic poems where he transported to the colonies, and Britain’s imagines gay marriage 150 years before it interpretation of sodomy was exported there as actually happened. At the end of his life, he had a well. very beautiful and provocative relationship with As a former political consultant and someone the American poet Walt Whitman, which who visited Guantanamo, I am interested in this prodded him to be brave and address same-sex consensus of British historians who are saying love. Toward the end of his life, he wrote a that nothing got worse for gay men in Britain. If manifesto in English for gay rights — the first, at you look at their data sets, they are only counting least as far as anything I have read. The England and Wales, they are not counting manifesto had a sustained argument for the legal Scotland, where there was a death sentence for rights of gay men. After his death, it was sodomy for many years after it ended in Britain. published and handed secretly from hand to hand. They are also not counting Ireland, all of the It created a modern understanding in more colonies and New South Wales, where men were developed countries of how one could see sexual transported for sodomy. It is very standard
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practice that if you want a political problem to go history because you have a small number of away, you just imprison them or transport them people tasked to control large numbers of people. elsewhere. I find it notable that these data sets are These laws were very effective in controlling and not included when British historians say that the subduing populations and then they were brought situation didn’t get worse. home.
Mukhopadhyay: Do you think there’s more Mukhopadhyay: A thing many people miss retaliation against “Outrages” because it out, particularly in history, is the state addresses a topic — discrimination against the subjugation of women. How did Victorian LGBTQ+ community — people are generally England’s laws intrude on the female body? uncomfortable with? Wolf: There’s actually wonderful scholarly Wolf: This is an incredibly important history work done on this. There was an effort by British (of the LGBTQ+ community) to tell and it’s colonial powers to control and examine sex obviously suppressed. I studied literature for 25 workers or women accused of being sex workers. years. In literary studies, the high point for This was first tried out in a colonial context and persecution of gay men in Britain in the 19th then brought home to become the Contagious century was Oscar Wilde’s trial. I was shocked to Diseases Act. There is some documentation of discover this in my historical research. how laws intrude on the female body and how In my research, I came across works by three women colonial subjects were experiments. scholars, namely H. G. Cox, Charles Upchurch and Graham Robb, that confirmed that 55 men Mukhopadhyay: This context ties in with my were executed in Britain for sodomy. There were next question. A gynecologist recently called decade-long sentences or life sentences for gay Twitter out for censoring her publisher’s men several years before the Wilde trials. In the usage of the word “vagina.” There is still a 19th century, people treated news of the arrest for stigma around the word. Why is there so much sodomy with amusement. backlash when a person talks about something There was also a concerted campaign by the that makes many people uncomfortable? Victorian state to present people cross dressing as Wolf: The portrayal of female sexuality is all a threat to the rest of society. It’s shocking that about agency. Showing a million pornographic there’s a narrative about how transgender people images of some trafficked woman or someone are threatening to the rest of society. “Outrages” who is struggling to feed her kids isn’t really has a whole section on dressing femininely. What about female sexual agency. It’s not. When is too feminine? People need to question why the women start claiming the right to own their state regulates masculinity levels of an attire in bodies without shame, then agencies start to turn order to really appear as a “man.” How did the around, and people become uncomfortable. state abrogate to itself the right to police people, It’s not vaginas that make people uncomfortable not just in bed, but also how they present if they are properly packaged. It’s when the themselves? And these thoughts were exported owners of the vaginas start talking about what across borders to the colonies. happens to them — that is when they get The theory in “Outrages” is that these claims censored. This doctor’s title was censored, my of the state to manage our intimate lives, to book, “Vagina,” was briefly censored by manage our speech and our self-presentation are Amazon, although there was an outcry. clever ways to control large populations and Why is it considered radical when women suppress them in situations where they are start naming what happens to them? The state otherwise clamoring for their rights. An uses intrusion on bodies to control populations absolutely perfect illustration of that is colonial the way that women as a gender are controlled,
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and sexual assault and domestic violence are a their beauty have escalated because of social huge part of that control. The judiciary colludes media? in not doing anything about it. India is a perfect Wolf: That’s a great question and I get asked example of this. I am always blown away by this quite frequently. Many things have changed news stories of India where there is a massive since I wrote “The Beauty Myth,” but many radical feminist awakening, women are things have also not changed. I think women of mobilized, aware, talking, trying to legislate and your generation, all over the world, are much creating networks. It’s unbelievably effective — more empowered to ask the questions that you’re more effective than America, I would say, kind of asking and even theorize, position yourselves as a very fast arising of women around feminist critics of social norms. The mere idea of issues, especially around sexual assault. criticizing beauty ideals or other social norms At the same time, you see egregious, horrific was scary and not encouraged among young public demonstrations of male power over women when I was writing “The Beauty Myth.” women’s bodies. A perfect example is the And that’s so powerful. backlash and struggle over who owns the vagina When I went to India on my last visit, I was and how that struggle is demonstrated. It’s a blown away by the hundreds and hundreds of vicious cycle to control women’s desires, and the highly mobilized, organized, determined demonstration against this takes different forms. passionate feminists I met. Not just women from Over and over, patriarchy demonstrates to urban areas, but women from rural areas and women that they are not going to escape their first-generation women going to college, which subjugation through sexual violence and sexual was astonishingly inspiring. The willingness to assault — which is just a way to subjugate us in critique has gotten better globally. However, general. When women start naming their bodies other things are not so great. and are not ashamed of saying “vagina,” and they Anorexia and bulimia statistics haven’t take a stand over issues like genital mutilation changed. I think that young women feel a lot of and molestation, it sparks a revolution. fears around Instagram and looking perfect on I was ashamed to talk about what my social media, which is causing anxiety. I also professor did to me when I was 19, and I was think that fears around beauty are extending to afraid of speaking out until I was in my 40s, even boys and young men. The increasing accessibility when I had two children, been married, and had a of plastic surgery is making some people feel lot of social validation. One reason I was afraid more dissatisfied. was because we are trained to not name what happens to us sexually because we are so afraid Mukhopadhyay: I can’t fail to notice that that we will be labeled a slut if we have ever had criticism around your work has increased in sexual agency in a context that maligned us. the past few years. Why do you think that this When women are able to say “vagina,” they can happened? What motivates you to keep stand up in front of the court and say, “This is writing? what he did — he raped me, he touched me here” Wolf: If I gave up that easily, I wouldn’t be — and they can do so articulately without being much of a feminist! When I was writing about silenced. It’s really not a struggle of who owns how hard it is for Western middle-class women to the vagina, but who owns history, who will be go on a diet, I was the darling of the media. The believed. issues I talked about earlier are important and I am glad I talked about them, but they are not Mukhopadhyay: It’s been more than 20 years central to dismantling more serious forms of since you wrote “The Beauty Myth.” Do you power. Since I became a democracy activist, the feel that issues around women’s bodies and criticism has gotten more intense. I guess that’s
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because I stopped being a cultural critic and Mukhopadhyay: Does the current political commentator and got interested in offering situation have anything to do with the rise in people actual tools to change laws. That criticism? generates a different level of antagonism. Wolf: I can’t stop you from noticing a direct But why do I keep writing? Being 56 years old link. One can clearly see a geopolitical alignment helps because I have lived through a lot of these of oligarchic states such as Russia, the United attacks. “The Beauty Myth” was attacked States, the UK, ancillary Brazil and Saudi Arabia. viciously. I remember calling my mom and I would also put Israel in there. These countries saying, “Why do I keep going on these book have anti-democratic leadership now, and what I tours, because people are so mad at me! know as a former political consultant is that a lot Feminists are mad at me. I was attacked on of these countries are being advised by a lot of national television!” My mom said, “Don’t you the same conservative and anti-democratic dare think about stopping.” And I knew I was leaders/political consultants and think tanks. right, and it was important that I keep going on. What we are seeing is that the nation-state is Now, “The Beauty Myth” is in college and high- becoming less and less important. What’s school curricula. becoming important is that oligarch forming In 2012, people attacked me on “Vagina.” common cause. They don’t like democracy and Now there are half a dozen books that are clearly they don’t like the nation-state because you need influenced by that book, and women are a lot a strong nation-state to have a strong democracy. more comfortable talking about their sexuality You see the same tactics in country after country and sexual abuse. I like to think that I had a bit of to divide people, whip up hatred of immigrants, role in that. I don’t think the book will be LGBTQ+ people and Muslims. We are now received as critically today. seeing the rise of the paramilitary just like I Now my critics are so mad about “Outrages,” predicted in one of my earlier books, “The End of and yet I know that it’s accurate, and those two America.” misinterpretations are corrected. I know it’s an How does it play out in my criticism? I have important book, it says things that need to be no idea. I don’t know if there’s a direct said, and it’s about a lost and forgotten pioneer of connection, but I do know that a lot of people LGBTQ+ history. I am not going to give up on who are pro-democracy and environmental bringing his voice to the people. It’s my business activists are being phoned. There are a lot of to take on board constructive criticism and smear campaigns going on. People are having factual errors and fix them, but I can’t make their employers called, people are being people smarter than they are. I can’t make people controlled on Twitter, journalists are being evolve faster than they are willing to. harassed and threatened. I am not drawing a I know that “Vagina” was an important book. conclusion of who is doing it any why, but I do I know that “Outrages” is an important book, and know that there’s more bullying and harassment. Symonds was an important figure who changed I don’t have any other insight on why this is history. I have also received a lot of praise and happening. Maybe I am just more annoying than support, which you will not see on Google, over usual! the last couple of years. A women’s museum in Italy is dedicating a permanent space to me, and I got an invite from Trinity College to be awarded *Ankita Mukopadhyay is a journalist based in and honored for contributing to feminist New Delhi. Naomi Wolf is the author of eight philosophy — this was after the attacks. I am not bestselling works of nonfiction, whose focus is treated specially on Twitter, but a lot of people on contemporary gender issues, censorship and appreciate my work. democracy.
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Immigrants Provide a Net Gain to the committee last year, in 2017 immigrants made up US almost 30% of all new entrepreneurs despite representing just 13.7% percent of the US
population, being the backbone of the small- Kourosh Ziabari & Kwame Anthony Appiah business sector and propping up communities January 16, 2020 across the country. The testimony also cites the
New American Economy fund figures showing that of the Fortune 500 companies in 2018, 44% In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer were started by children of immigrants, which talks to prominent British-Ghanaian altogether added $5.5 trillion to the US economy philosopher Kwame Anthony Appiah. in 2017. Kwame Anthony Appiah is a prominent he coming to power of Donald Trump has British-Ghanaian intellectual, cultural theorist reignited the debate on immigration and and professor of philosophy and law at New York T multiculturalism in the United States. His University. In October 2018, the University of stringent policies and the efforts to slash both Edinburgh awarded an honorary doctorate to legal and illegal immigration to the US have been Professor Appiah in recognition of his global at the forefront of controversy since he took influence on philosophy and politics. His latest office in January 2017, leading some to assert book, “The Lies That Bind: Rethinking Identity,” that Trump is heading “the most immigration- was released in 2018. restrictive administration since the 1920s.” In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer Immigration and race relations are expected to talks to Kwame Anthony Appiah about be major areas of focus in the 2020 election, once immigration, race relations in 21st-century again highlighting a longstanding challenge the America, the rise of white nationalism, and how United States has been grappling with. In we can build trust in a diverse society. September 2019, the State Department announced that the US will only admit up to Kourosh Ziabari: After President Trump 18,000 refugees in the next fiscal year, marking a assumed power, an extensive debate emerged historic low after the 2019 cap of 30,000 over the alleged harm immigrants bring to the refugees, which was itself the lowest level since United States and the exigency of tackling 1980. immigration. The president introduced his Although an anti-immigration stance has controversial Muslim ban, and Muslims, become a hallmark of the Trump administration, Mexicans and other minorities have been reflecting the president’s desires to appeal to his constantly vilified in the right-wing media and nationalist base, it is beyond doubt that the by the president himself. Do you think it is the United States has historically benefited from immigrants who are undermining cohesion immigration. Research by the London School of and security in the United States? Economics and Political Science suggests, for Kwame Anthony Appiah: Obviously not! example, that US counties that admitted more Immigrants, wherever they come from, provide, immigrants between 1850 and 1920 enjoy higher on average, a net gain to the United States average incomes, less poverty and lower economy. And there surely wouldn’t be so many employment today. The findings show that the of us if we didn’t. Low-skill migrants often “long-run benefits of immigration can be large, accept jobs that native-born Americans don’t and need not come at high social cost.” really want to do at wages many natives wouldn’t According to the testimony by the Center for accept. High-skilled migrants give us human American Progress to a congressional budget capital that we haven’t been able to produce here.
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Both are more law-abiding than natives on of relatively large immigrant flows far outweigh average and make a positive social contribution these and other costs. in other ways, not just to the economy. It’s perhaps worth saying, too, that the deepest There are indeed some, especially low-skilled divisions in the United States today seem to me natives, who lose their jobs to immigrants, to be partisan: between devoted Republicans and though it’s worth pointing out [that] low-skills committed Democrats. While some of these migrants also create jobs because natives are divides are associated with different views about better placed to help manage people unfamiliar immigration, they are not caused by immigration. with our customs. But many more are losing their jobs to robots and to the transfer of tasks to Ziabari: Different US presidents in the past, cheaper labor markets elsewhere. So, the fact that including Harry Truman, Gerald Ford, immigration is a net plus doesn’t mean that there Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush aren’t native-born Americans who have been and Barack Obama, have referred to the disadvantaged by it. Something can be a huge net United States as a “nation of immigrants.” In plus and also have significant downsides for sharp contrast to his predecessors, President particular people. Trump has railed against immigrants, This is a problem we should care about as pejoratively calling them “rapists,” “killers” their fellow citizens, of course. Well, I say “of and “invaders.” Where does this animosity course,” but the small-government types may not toward immigrants come from? Is this sort of think this is as obvious as I do. But the net gains discourse he is promoting something that from migration to the US and the world would appeals to his base? make it foolish to deal with this problem by Appiah: President Trump’s very evident stopping immigration rather than by helping racism and Islamophobia are representative, as those people get new training and new we well know, of a part of the US population. opportunities. And these attitudes are present all around the Lots of things in the US would be much more world. There are interesting psychological expensive if we slowed migration, or abandoned theories about what sort of personality traits are robots or global trade, for that matter. So, most of conducive to bigotry, and some of them, I us benefit from immigrants as consumers as well suppose, might help explain the president’s as benefiting from the general increase in wealth attitudes. But it’s a long-standing racist culture created by a successful global economy. And that provides the largest explanation, I think, not that’s not to mention the obligation we have to do the individual traits of the specific people who our fair share to look after legitimate asylum- turn out to be racists. And the president’s seekers. significant personal moral deficiencies wouldn’t The largest domestic threats to security — if matter much if his views didn’t receive an by that you mean acts of terrorism — at the echoing reflection from a part — mostly a white moment come, as the FBI has recently insisted, part — of the population. from right-wing white nationalists. We have not So, yes, the racist nonsense evidently appeals been subjected to much terror by immigrants, to some of those who voted for him. Still, let’s Muslim or otherwise — 9/11 was not carried out remember, it has alienated others, including both by immigrants, and the largest threats to cohesion some — like Congressman [Joe] Walsh — who come from their non-violent sympathizers. are on the right, and many moderate Republicans Societies that are diverse face challenges, toward the center, like Governor [Bill] Weld. particularly in the realm of trust, but we can This sort of rallying of the nation against manage them, and, as I say, the benefits to the US foreigners and their domestic allies — the un- American Americans — is a feature of populism
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in many places: Hungary, Italy, Britain, India. ignorance about the dark side of the national It’s a cheap and irresponsible way to get support story.” I assume nationalism goes against by appealing to sentiments that are always patriotism in this context. Do you agree with present below the surface and can easily be the argument that successive US brought into the light by demagoguery. administrations in the modern time have Responsible leaders — of whom we have a fomented blind nationalism, and this is what distressing dearth at the moment — don’t do it. has made the many wars initiated by the So, I think it’s more important to give a United States across the world palatable and political account of the rewards of demagoguery easy to sell to the American public? than to speculate about the president’s Appiah: I don’t know that this is a helpful way psychology. We are just unfortunate that Mr. of putting things. Because I don’t think there’s Trump’s pathological narcissism means we anything wrong with nationalism when it’s cannot appeal to his better nature: He doesn’t regulated by morality. My father was a Ghanaian have one. He appears to care about almost nationalist and contributed to the struggle against nothing but short-term advantage for himself. But British colonialism as such. Nothing wrong with that doesn’t mean that’s true of all his followers, that. True, he called himself a patriot, too, in the so I wouldn’t give up on all of them as I have on title of his autobiography, “The Autobiography of the president. an African Patriot,” but the movement he joined was a nationalist one. You could keep the word Ziabari: Critics of President Trump believe “patriotism” for good nationalism, I suppose, but his rhetoric and policies have emboldened that will just defer the question of which forms of white nationalists and alt-right extremists, nationalism are good. whose nefarious ideology has been manifested I don’t think you have to be a “blind” in incidents like the El Paso shooting, which nationalist to support a war. I would have claimed 20 lives. President Trump offered supported entering World War II, but I don’t thoughts and prayers, and described the think my American nationalism is blind. The perpetrator as a person with a serious mental thing that’s dangerous in the lead-up to war is the illness. I imagine his response would have been demonization of the potential enemy; it’s not the totally different if a Muslim American or an caring for your own country that does the Arab immigrant was behind such an atrocity. damage. Our many wars in this 21st century have What is your take on that? largely been morally disastrous. They have Appiah: We don’t have to speculate about wasted blood — American and even more that. His response to both the San Bernardino and foreign blood, and treasure — ours and other the Orlando nightclub murders, which were people’s, again, and they haven’t made us much carried out by people who were Muslim, did not safer — arguably less safe, while at the same mention the evidence that the murderer in the time they’ve contributed to the ruined lives of latter case was mentally unbalanced. People have millions of Iraqis, Libyans and Afghans, just to noticed — as part of the evidence that the pick the worst cases. president is a bigot — that he responds differently to acts of terror committed by people Ziabari: Are the mainstream media in the from groups he is hostile to. That’s not very United States deliberately stifling debate on surprising, of course. race relations and the plague of racism in American society? Or do you see adequate Ziabari: You once said in an interview that all coverage of these topics in the US media? forms of nationalism, including American Appiah: There’s lots of coverage of racism in nationalism, tend to “blind people into willed the mainstream media. The New York Times just
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ran a special issue in its 1619 Project, exploring who fail to understand and fulfill their moral the legacies of racial slavery. Depressingly, obligations properly? instead of recognizing the long shadow of racial Appiah: Well, there’s plenty of blame to go slavery and granting that we need to do around. Those leaders, in many countries, are something about it, a bunch of conservatives voted in by the people. If ordinary citizens cared declared this was left-wing propaganda. We more about these things, at least in the shouldn’t measure American media by looking at democracies, their leaders might do more. Of Fox News. course, it’s part of the responsibility of leaders to recognize these duties and persuade people to Ziabari: How have US policies toward the support action on them. But it’s a two-way street. Muslim world, particularly in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, influenced the Muslim Ziabari: You talk about cosmopolitanism and nations’ perceptions of the United States and conversation, and why meaningful, erudite their feelings about America? Do you think dialogue between people with varied identities the US needs a thorough restructuring of its is needed and important. We live in a world relations with the Muslim world? where people with different religious, racial Appiah: Well, since 9/11, the United States and national backgrounds are pitted against has gone out into the world with its allies and each other and divided across ideological and devastated a bunch of countries in the Muslim political lines. How is it possible to facilitate world. It’s not surprising that there’s a feeling in the dialogue that brings the divided many Muslim quarters that Americans are populations together and helps them indifferent to Muslim suffering. Of course, at the understand each other better? same time, we have had relatively good relations Appiah: It’s hard. But it’s also intensely with the Emirates, Qatar, Jordan and Saudi rewarding. I’ve learned so much in recent years Arabia in the Gulf area, and also with Indonesia about philosophy — my professional field — by and Malaysia in the east, and Morocco — our opening up to Muslim and to Confucian oldest ally — in the west. So, the picture is traditions in ethics, for example. And it’s complex. essential. We face so many global problems — But the real problem is that when Muslims climate, health, economic inequality — that can’t conclude that many Americans are Islamophobic, be solved without transnational collaborations they’re not wrong. We need to get rid of a whole and global agreements. raft of false ideas about Muslims and to build a One starting point, I think, is with the great better understanding of the vastly diverse world cross-national identities, like Islam and of Islam. That’s the place to start and it will take Christianity, which already draw people into a lot of hard work. interactions with people in other societies. But we have to begin at home, too, by recognizing how Ziabari: You have written about the moral essential it is to get to know our fellow citizens, obligations of individuals and communities, the people with whom we share the responsibility and the responsibilities we all have toward our of running the republic. I tried, in my book, fellow citizens in detail, particularly in your “Cosmopolitanism: Ethics in a World of 2005 book, “The Ethics of Identity.” Do you Strangers,” to talk about some of the ways in agree that the difficulties societies experience which the arts can contribute to understanding nowadays — including poverty, illiteracy, food across groups as well. insecurity, conflict and racial discrimination Sports is another place where we can spend — originate from the apathy of those in power time with people of diverse identities and build the kind of trust that can then be taken into
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political collaboration. We have to start by doing The situation is exacerbated by the fact that things together, getting used to one another. the number of WhatsApp users alone is predicted That’s the trick. to reach a whopping 450 million this year — up from 200 million in 2017. According to Digital Trends, WhatsApp “dominates India’s digital * Kourosh Ziabari is an award-winning Iranian channels of communication,” spanning e- journalist. Kwame Anthony Appiah is a cultural commerce, entertainment, news and more, and theorist, philosopher and novelist who teaches at has become a breeding pool for misinformation. the New York University's Department of While the company has started putting measures Philosophy and School of Law. in place to curb the spread of fake news, launching radio campaigns to alert users to the potential consequences and shutting down 2 Can Telling Stories Through Data million accounts each month, but so far these efforts have not had any significant effect. Help Fight Misinformation in India? At a time when distinguishing news from misinformation is difficult or even impossible, Ankita Mukhopadhyay & Govindraj Ethiraj and source data is under attack, projects like January 23, 2020 IndiaSpend and DataBaaz aim to challenge the status quo through data-based journalism. Supported by the Google News Initiative, they In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer address critical issues like gender, health care and talks to Govindraj Ethiraj, the founder of education through data-based stories and videos. IndiaSpend and DataBaaz. In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer talks to Govindraj Ethiraj, the founder of ver the past five years, India has seen IndiaSpend and DataBaaz, about how the two several changes around the creation and companies use data to tell stories that matter, and O dissemination of data. The Indian how Indians can learn to spot fake news. government has come under fire for withholding data on crucial issues like unemployment, as well Ankita Mukhopadhyay: Can you tell us a bit as changing statistical methodologies to ascertain about IndiaSpend and DataBaaz? key metrics, calling into question the reliability of Govindraj Ethiraj: I launched the source data itself. IndiaSpend.com to tell stories through data, while In a country of 1.3 billion people, over half a DataBaaz is a video platform. Our focus is billion internet users and more than 400 TV primarily gender, health, education and channels, a lack of reliable information is a environment, as these issues underpin the serious problem. Not only do poor journalistic economic and social development of any country. standards and ethics drive mass disinformation We believe that if there is a basic understanding along political lines, but the increasingly of issues like health and gender, then we can widespread use of social media exacerbates the make these issues our focus when we interact country’s social and sectarian divides. with our elected representatives and press for According to a report by IndiaSpend, at least change where it’s necessary. 24 people have been killed in 2018 alone by IndiaSpend has been around for seven years lynch mobs angered by fake social media stories. and is a business-to-business [B2B] service. Our Analysis by the BBC has similarly documented a content goes to publishing partners like sharp increase in fatal mob attacks in 2018. newspapers, online dailies, wire services and television. It’s also read by people in academia
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and government, which is an influential audience, television and then moved to digital. I have been but not a large audience. a financial journalist all my life, analyzing We want to reach out to more people, companies and their performance. I always felt particularly young people. With young people, that there was an opportunity to apply my skills we face the challenge of making them data- of analyzing data to issues of larger public aware. The India Fact Quiz is a device to tackle interest. this challenge. The quiz, which creates a That’s why I made the shift to data-based gamified environment, will reach out to more journalism. I was also partly influenced by the people and get them engaged. Young people also Anna Hazare movement in 2011. The movement get an opportunity to win prizes. was counterintuitive to what people in my generation assumed about millennials — that Mukhopadhyay: What is the objective of the they are not interested to be part of the active India Fact Quiz? Why is there a focus on political process. The Anna Hazare movement individuals between the ages of 17 and 25? showed us that young people are not dismissive Ethiraj: The India Fact Quiz aims to create of politics. The point was made. At that time, I awareness among India’s youth about data thought, If there is emotion about change, then literacy. The quiz also aims to encourage fact- can we bring data into the equation? If you blend checking of information on India, against the data with emotion, then people will hopefully ask backdrop of the UN’s Sustainable Development the right questions and demand higher quality of Goals. The idea is to test and challenge the governance and accountability. mental biases and myths around India, by providing correct data and facts to participants. Mukhopadhyay: A challenge students, We want to encourage our youngsters to have a journalists, companies and other enterprises in more factful view of the world. The India Fact India face is both the lack of, and slow access Quiz will identify India’s curious and most to, information. How do you tackle this? factful minds, who value the importance of data Ethiraj: Over the last five years, the data in public discourse and create a new wave of landscape has changed. There is an oversupply of factful citizen-engagement. data, but not much demand for the data. But a India Fact Quiz will be a pan-India quiz and is problem that’s arisen in the past few years is that designed in a digitally gamified quizzing format the government is revisiting data sets and pulling which connects with today’s youth. The digital them back. This has happened with employment quiz will run online for 30-45 days, followed by data and consumption data, which is going back physical rounds, which will be held at five and forth. It’s a new kind of problem which colleges at different parts of the country … and wasn’t there earlier. We are still figuring out how broadcast on television. Subsequently, there will to respond. also be weekly online quizzes on the India Fact At the end of the day, only a government can Quiz website to continue encouraging the collate such a huge chunk of data. Private players practice of learning and fact-checking. can’t do it, so you depend on the government. But if the source data is being changed, what do Mukhopadhyay: Your primary focus over the we do? To respond to that, we first need to wrap last few years is to bring data-based insights [our heads] around data that exists, how to use it and journalism to the Indian masses. Why did effectively to ask questions. you make the shift from broadcast journalism to data-based storytelling? Mukhopadhyay: You mentioned that some of Ethiraj: My last job was with Bloomberg. I the data is being revisited. How do you tell the have spent about 10 years in print, 10-11 years in stories in this scenario?
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Ethiraj: We don’t. We avoid writing on Mukhopadhyay: At a time when topics like consumption or unemployment. Our misinformation spreads rapidly, particularly primary focus is health, environment and gender. on social media, how can Indians access the We don’t write on issues like job creation. We facts and distinguish between information and touch on different aspects of the issue, like misinformation? women dropping out of the workforce. We are Ethiraj: This is a tough question. There is no not set up to court controversy or take on the way to say that the data you’re giving is more government. Our mission is to tell stories through accurate than the data that I am giving. And it’s data. In circumstances where data is pulled out tougher to make that distinction, as most of us for political reasons, we avoid getting involved in have our prejudices and therefore only trust some those topics. things because we like the look of it. The only thing people can do is be more vigilant and alert Mukhopadhyay: Indian journalism is and careful about how they form opinions from currently undergoing a transition following the information they get. One should try to form the rise of digital media. How has the role of specialist resources of their own. Indian media changed, particularly in For example, if you like to follow what’s disseminating information to the public? happening in medicine, then follow the American Ethiraj: I don’t think the role of Indian media Journal of Medicine, or Science Daily. At least has changed, but it needs to change. I would you know that if there’s research that’s being frame the statement in that way. As a media talked about, then there are people who know executive, one constantly asks, What is my role? what they are talking about. People have to be My role is to inform, educate and make people more vigilant, do their own research and not let aware of what is happening around them in an emotion drive them. It’s a tough call, and it’s not objective way. I am not sure if a lot of easy. journalistic organizations fulfil that basic tenet — I think we should create a culture of and that’s because they operate like any other appreciation of data and where data comes from. business. But if you operate media like a For example, if I quote the second most populous business, the product suffers. state, that data will come from the census. Take television for instance. Owing to Whichever side you’re on — left or right — oversupply and competition, TV channels do when you use data, debates become rational. essentially anything to orient their product so that it appeals to audiences. Such viewpoints are Mukhopadhyay: In the past few years, public usually extreme or champion a certain viewpoint faith in data provided by news organizations over others. The executive producer sitting in a has fallen. Media organizations also quote TV room has a single objective — to beat last different figures for the same story. Why has week’s ratings. Which is not philosophically this happened, and how can it be tackled? wrong, but it is what you do to get that rating that Ethiraj: Until last year and the year before makes everything a game. Most people lose sense that, we had no problem with base data. We of their moral compass. never faced a situation where basic data like the Television is a soft power, but it causes far more gross domestic product growth was questionable. damage than good in India. It’s a business-model For the first time, the source data is being failure because of oversupply. You have over 400 discredited by the government itself. We are in a channels when there should be 40, which causes strange territory. If one organization says that everyone to go berserk. India is doing well, another one is saying it is not — and both are using the source data. This puts the reliability of the source data into question.
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For example, India’s former chief economic Ethiraj: We diversified into local languages adviser has said that our GDP growth is 2.5% as we wanted to cater to a larger audience. We lower than what is being reported in the media. also wanted to reach south India, so we started a Other countries have also gone through such a Tamil version of our website recently. If we get situation, where their source data was considered more resources, we will launch another version in unreliable. There was once a lot of suspicion on the south as well. The idea is that more and more China’s data. The loss of trust in India’s core data people should read our stuff. I know our stuff in sets is now a fundamental problem. To rectify Hindi goes to news desks in Jagran and Dainik this, one needs to use a multilateral approach. We Bhaskar [top Hindi-language newspapers in have to collectively figure out the best way to India]. create source data sets that people trust. Mukhopadhyay: IndiaSpend has a business- Mukhopadhyay: How can Indian citizens to-business model. Do you plan to convert to a leverage data to hold politicians accountable business-to-customer (B2C) model anytime for their work? soon? Ethiraj: If and when Indians imbibe a culture Ethiraj: Our work is accessible by everyone to use data to ask questions, they should hold on our website and social media. However, we politicians accountable at a more local level. Do I haven’t come up with a B2C strategy, as know the budget of my local member of IndiaSpend is not a B2C product by definition. parliament? What has that person achieved in the You don’t come to read IndiaSpend unless you’re last five years? If there is a focus on work at the academically inclined or a public policy local level, then the outcome Indians can see enthusiast. In addition, our stories are difficult to from using data is considerably more and precise. read as they use a lot of data and they are not about happy issues. B2C products have to be Mukhopadhyay: You mentioned earlier that higher on emotion or entertainment. I have one of the core topics of IndiaSpend is gender. worked at the Times Group for five years, so I How can one achieve political change for have some understanding of what works, and women through data, when the problems are what doesn’t, for consumers. It makes sense if more deep-rooted within the society and IndiaSpend’s work appears in the Times of India, human psyche? rather than if it competes with the Times of India. Ethiraj: Our focus is to generate awareness. And awareness leads to greater gender equality. For example, most of us are now aware that if *Ankita Mukopadhyay is a journalist based in girls are educated, then that fixes a lot of New Delhi who holds a postgraduate degree from problems in society. Children of educated women the London School of Economics Govindraj are healthier and receive better education. Our Ethiraj is a renowned Indian television and print objective is to report on issues that are related to journalist and founder of IndiaSpend.com and gender to better gender outcomes because gender Factchecker.in, two public-interest journalism is a foundational thing. websites.
Mukhopadhyay: You recently launched a Hindi version of your website, IndiaSpend.com. Why did you decide to venture into the vernacular medium? What benefit do you see from this diversification?
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Talking African Literature With In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer Chigozie Obioma talks to Obioma about his career, novels and the representation of colonialism in African
literature. Kourosh Ziabari & Chigozie Obioma March 5, 2020 Kourosh Ziabari: In “An Orchestra of Minorities,” you depict the ordeal of an unassuming poultry farmer who falls in love In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer with a pharmacy student hailing from a talks to the acclaimed Nigerian writer prosperous family. In order to impress the Chigozie Obioma. parents of his beloved woman, he sells his entire belongings to take up a position at a frican literature has attracted immense northern Cypriot university and fund his international interest in recent years, and studies. Shortly after arriving in Cyprus, he A a number of “Afropolitan” icons and realizes that the middlemen who had promised rising stars have won acclaim from critics and him a university placement had tricked him literary festivals. and that there was no position available for Yet most reading lists released by major him at the college whatsoever. Is this suffering newspapers and journals are still a situation that many young Nigerians go disproportionately Western-centric, and African through? While crafting the novel, was it your literature lacks enough media attention. Despite intention to raise awareness of this challenge this, more avid readers across the globe are faced by Nigerians? getting to know names such as Nuruddin Farah, Chigozie Obioma: Yes, I always say that Alain Mabanckou, Ben Okri, Aminatta Forna and fiction is a medium that takes lived experience Chigozie Obioma, marking the diversification of and molds it into something that can become so the literary taste of millennial bibliophiles. new [that] those who have lived the experience Literature originating from Africa often delves may not even recognize it. Even more so, this into the legacy of colonialism, sheds light on the novel covers how African migrants are treated in tyranny of capital over labor, recounts the the West quite a bit, but people rarely talk about identity crisis that many Africans battle with, and how we are treated in countries outside of the represents the unheard voices of ordinary people west. and unsung heroes. It is, of course, a shame that the selfish culture Chigozie Obioma is a 33-year-old Nigerian of African politicians leaves their states in novelist and writer who has earned global catastrophic states, but when these migrants go to recognition after publishing three books at such a places like India, Turkey, Cyprus, Mexico and young age. In 2015 and 2019, he was nominated other places, they face inhuman treatments. I for the Man Booker Prize. Time magazine myself lived in North Cyprus for five years and described his novel “An Orchestra of Minorities” the travails of Chinonso, the protagonist of the as a “mystical epic” that confirms his “place novel, are similar to what I and others among a raft of literary stars.” The Guardian experienced. I wrote about my own ordeal in an referred to him as the “heir to Chinua Achebe” essay earlier this year for the Paris Review. who is “a good writer whose work has a deeply felt authenticity, combined with old-fashioned Ziabari: In an interview, you said you wanted storytelling.” Obioma is currently an assistant to chronicle the landmarks of Igbo history and professor of literature and creative writing at the civilization in the “Orchestra,” including the University of Nebraska-Lincoln in the US. encounter with the Portuguese in the 15th
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century and the Nigerian Civil War. Do you of being and existence” as I always put it, is one think your readers have been able to absorb such quandary. the historical messages you planned to share with them or is it that this pedagogic effort has Ziabari: You’ve implied on a number of been overshadowed by the supremacy of the occasions that your relationship with your storyline and the ups and downs of the life of homeland of Nigeria is a capricious one. On Chinonso, his quest for excellence and his love the one hand, it is the home that sends you journey? away because of its lack of provisions and Obioma: I think that this being a work of opportunities. On the other, it is the home that fiction rather than non-fiction — I could, for embraces you when you return from the US. Is instance, have elected to simply write a historical it realistic to say your novels are partly book — I had to layer the historical portions inspired by your own story and your special around a particular story. So, both of them, I connection with “home”? hope, go together. The historical portions of the Obioma: Capricious indeed! But I am wedded novel are organic to the narrator, for it is the to it. The truth is that I am a reluctant exile in voice of a god. Thus, through its testimony about America. I wish I could live in Nigeria, frankly. itself and its host, it also describes the world as it That is my home. That’s where I live has experienced it over these many centuries. untrammeled, without any fear of being an immigrant or a racial minority. It is where my Ziabari: You consider yourself an ontologist ancestors lived and died, and the place whose interested in the metaphysics of being and food I love to eat. But yet, I feel I cannot live existence. The themes of fate, destiny and there. sublimity are often missing in the majority of There is a wall that has come between my novels written today, but you explore these home and me, and it is a wall I do not have the territories in your fiction extensively. Do you courage to scale. [In a recent interview, I talked think this approach to existence is what is of] how this shapes the tone of my fiction in that winning you popularity and helping your it often leads to a sort of “tragic vision” which work stand out among hundreds of novels by comes about out of the sadness of writing about major literary figures? Nigeria. I said there that such writing is a Obioma: I am not sure why my novels have masochistic act because “Nigeria riles me, received some recognition, but I agree that the wounds me, and heals me at the same time. I love themes I have focused on are mostly marginal it entirely and loathe it at the same time, and in and not often what many writers consider. One of that kind of relationship, a certain form of despair the reasons why I have focused on fate and often gets hold of the mind. My writing is destiny is because my people, the West Africans, sometimes an effort to rid myself of that despair think mostly in these terms. I want to capture the through the joy of artistic creation. The witness essence of their common worldview. borne then, if I might say, is a witness to my own It is also because Nigeria to me is a paradox. surrendering to a light that emerges from my own This is a country that could be rich but is poor. darkness, and in that light, I am refreshed and There are, of course, deep philosophical reasons made alive.” why this is so. But on the surface, that paradox stings and stares at you in the face, and it haunts Ziabari: Why do you think so few prominent my mind. This makes one ponder things that are writers have shed light on chi in Igbo subterranean to the consciousness — things that cosmology and that old African cultural seems to lie beneath the surface and have no easy heritage is neglected by the youth? Do you answers. The meaning of life, the “metaphysics
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consider the postcolonial influence of the West relatable. I also often think that there is on Nigeria to be a negative one? something profoundly human about the Obioma: I think many African writers and relationship between the four brothers and how, thinkers have tried to encourage an embrace of just by speaking words, a stranger could cause an our heritage. There was Chinua Achebe, for irreparable fracture between them. I think this is instance, but also, to some extent, Wole Soyinka. what many readers — across the 30 or so The purpose for me is to reassure our identity as countries where the book has been published — people who had some culture and civilization connect with. prior to the coming of the West. I think because of colonialism and slavery, followed by the Ziabari: You once said that you wouldn’t have underdevelopment of most African countries, written “The Fishermen” if you hadn’t moved there has set in this self-damaging inferiority to Cyprus to study. How did being based in complex — the idea that we are no good. Cyprus influence your understanding of I was in Abuja around two years ago and some Nigeria? Do you ascribe the creation of “The people were debating on national radio whether Fishermen” to homesickness that possibly we should be recolonized. Now, this is a mistake. invigorated your sense of belonging to We only need to learn history, to look back at the Nigeria? sophisticated sociopolitical systems we had, the Obioma: An Igbo proverb says that we hear economic systems, the egalitarian political the sound of the udu drum clearer from a distance structures to see that precolonial Africa was not rather than from being close by it. This is very one night from which the West rescued us. I think true of writing. When I am in a place or close to a without this reassurance, this strengthening of our place, it is often difficult to imagine it fully. But identity, this solving of our identity crisis, we when I am separated from a place and have cannot recover. distance from it, I am better able to see it, to fully conceive it imaginatively. Since fiction is all Ziabari: Your debut novel, “The Fishermen,” about creativity anyway — the invention of the was acclaimed by critics and shortlisted for a nonexistent — trusting in hindsight. 2015 Man Booker Prize. Why do you think the If I sat across from you at a cafe and I was to novel captured so much attention and elicited describe that moment on the spot, I would write positive reactions globally, considering that it about the obvious things you did. But if I lie was your first novel? Many aspiring writers, down in my bed later that night and the light was who happen to write captivating novels, off and I closed my eyes, the fine-grain details struggle for years to win publicity for their will trickle in. I will remember the unobvious work. What was the key to the success of “The things, the person scratching their wrist, or Fishermen” as a debut? hawking into a napkin — those fine details that Obioma: If I knew the reason why anyone enrich fiction. It is when the person is gone and enjoyed my work, I would be very glad. I think, the meeting has ended and the day is forgotten humbly, it is simply to work hard and believe in that things become closer, clearer. the vision you have for a particular project and to be true to that vision. I have always wanted to Ziabari: Many critics have compared you to write a novel about siblinghood and that the legendary Chinua Achebe and called you celebrates family and consanguinity. I think that his successor. Does it make you feel proud to is what “The Fishermen” does well above be compared to Achebe in the eyes of noted anything else. literati and authors? Do you personally In that sense, it has universal appeal and touches admire Achebe’s work? on aspects of humanity that are recognizable and
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Obioma: In some ways, “The Fishermen” is the latest attempt by the US to mediate shares an affinity with “Things Fall Apart,” between the Israelis and Palestinians and end the Achebe’s seminal work. Achebe wrote “Things seven-decade-old dispute. Fall Apart” to document the fall of the Igbo The deal sparked outrage by the Palestinians civilization, the African civilization or culture. I but was praised by the Israelis. Even though the am looking at a more specific fall of Nigeria — plan addresses controversial issues such as Israeli of our civilization, too, but in relation to Nigeria settlements, Palestinian refugees and the status of specifically. So, it’s a similar project. And in the Jerusalem, many observers have rebuffed it as ways in which Achebe tried to reveal the Igbo one-sided. civilization to his readers, and “An Orchestra of The plan sets out both political and economic Minorities” does a similar job. steps for peace. For the Israelis, Jerusalem would be the undivided capital of Israel. They would Ziabari: A final question. Where do you think also have full control over Jewish settlements in African literature, in general, and the the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Israel literature of Nigeria, in particular, are would retain most of the territories it captured heading? Should we expect more Man Booker during the 1967 war. For the Palestinians, the and Nobel nominations? West Bank would be connected to the Gaza Strip Obioma: Ah, I hope so of course. I think via a tunnel or highway. However, the African literature is in good shape. There are Palestinians would have to relinquish almost 40% wonderful writers popping up here and there, and of the West Bank and would have their capital in I won’t be surprised if we have more nominations Abu Dis, a Palestinian village in the Jerusalem and wins. Governorate. The framework also contains economic advantages that are offered to the Palestinians, including an investment of $50 * Kourosh Ziabari is an award-winning Iranian billion and 1 million jobs. journalist. Chigozie Obioma is a Nigerian In a televised statement shortly after the deal novelist and writer, and an assistant professor at went public, Palestinian President Mahmoud the University of Nebraska-Lincoln. Abbas reacted to it by stating: “[W]e say one thousand times no, no, no to the Deal of the Century.” In a joint communique, the Arab What the “Deal of the Century” League emphasized that it would not cooperate in the enforcement of the plan. The Israeli prime Means for Israel and Palestine minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, welcomed the peace plan and said: “[T]he deal of the century is Kourosh Ziabari & Antony Loewenstein the opportunity of a century, and we’re not going March 26, 2020 to pass it by.” Antony Loewenstein is a Jerusalem-based Australian journalist. His latest book is “Pills, In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer Powder and Smoke: Inside the Bloody War on talks to Jerusalem-based journalist Antony Drugs.” Loewenstein has written extensively on Loewenstein. the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and is a frequent commentator on TRT World, CNN and Al n January 28, US President Donald Jazeera. Trump unveiled his long-awaited peace In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer O plan for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, talks to Loewenstein about the “deal of the which he hailed as the “deal of the century.” This century,” Israeli settlements in the West Bank
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and the role of international organizations in composition of Palestinian lands and Israeli settling the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. territory. The Palestinian response has been This interview took place before the recent stringent, saying they’ll not accept this deal Israeli elections. The transcript has been edited under any circumstances. Considering the for clarity. map has been published, do you think that is the green light for Israel to annex more Kourosh Ziabari: No Palestinian official Palestinian lands, including the Jordan Valley, attended the White House announcement on and to build more settlements in the West the “deal of the century.” The attendees were Bank? evangelicals and the entourage of President Loewenstein: I think it’s almost inevitable Donald Trump and Israeli Prime Minister and, in fact, one of the things that is important to Benjamin Netanyahu. Does it matter to remember is, in some ways, that Israel doesn’t Trump if the Palestinians perceive the deal as even need this deal. I mean they’re annexing disproportionately biased? territory to an extent now anyway. There’s Antony Loewenstein: I think the aim is to currently in Israel and Palestine a “one-state” show that. It is quite clear that, for a long time, solution. It’s an apartheid state for Palestinians in the close coordination between the Israeli the West Bank, Gaza and the Jordan Valley, but government and the American administration is what it means practically on the ground is that to almost guarantee that the Palestinian Authority Israel has the freedom to do what it wants. There and Hamas, for that matter, will reject it. So, they is one civilian law for Israeli Jews in the West can then turn around and say: You see, we gave Bank and one law for Palestinians, which is a them a deal and it was a great deal, but they military rule, and that’s discriminatory and didn’t want it. Now we have to go on and apartheid by definition. continue with our plan which is annexation, So, does the map guarantee Israel will indefinite apartheid, etc. continue on its part? I think the answer is: yes. So, to me, in fact, the idea was that But Israel doesn’t need the Trump plan or the Palestinians would reject it — they knew that Trump map or the Trump deal to do that. They’re they would, almost certainly. It’s hard to see how doing it anyway and, frankly, they’ve been doing they could ever imagine that the Palestinian that for years. leadership would accept this deal — and it’s not The problem with this issue is not Donald really a deal, it’s more of a gun to the head. It’s Trump. Donald Trump is a terrible, racist basically saying that you have no choice but to president, but he has only accelerated the trends accept this. And if you don’t accept this so-called that were happening here already. These deal, then you will not be treated with respect. problems were created long before Trump — for And to actually launch a peace deal in which decades, in fact — by the Republican and one of the two sides are not present and have not Democratic presidents who allowed Israel to been involved in drafting the process, and the key occupy and discriminate against Palestinians people who drafted it were all Orthodox Jews without any punishment, including Democratic who support the illegal settlements in the West presidents such as [Barack] Obama. So, Trump is Bank, says all you need to know about what kind really not the problem here; Trump has merely of absurd deal this is. made the problem worse, for sure, but when he leaves office, Israel would almost certainly Ziabari: You said the Americans knew from continue behaving as it does because there’s the beginning that Palestinians would reject literally no international pressure on them to stop the peace plan. In the interim, the White them. House published a map, delineating the future
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Ziabari: Do you think the economic incentives sick game that the Israeli elites are playing, of Trump’s “vision for peace,” including because Palestinians are simply seen as irrelevant tripling Palestine’s GDP, investing $50 billion and viewed as subhuman and it’s not surprising, in the new state and creating 1 million new therefore, that every sane Palestinian would jobs for Palestinians over the next 10 years, 100% reject this deal. are attractive enough to satisfy the Palestinians and compel them to accept the Ziabari: The Organization for Islamic plan? Cooperation has rejected President Trump’s Loewenstein: Well, I’ve read not one peace plan and called on its 57 member states Palestinian who’s accepted it. That’s pretty much not to cooperate in the implementation of the all you need to know. I can’t say there’s not one deal. Does the refusal of major Muslim Palestinian amongst 5 million in the West Bank countries to work on the enforcement of the or Gaza who do accept it, but I’ve read no one deal affect its prospects for success? who says they accept it. And, to be clear, the Loewenstein: Well, the short answer is it has offer that Trump has apparently put on the table no impact. I mean, that’s the sad reality. There is not actually that amount of money — it’s an are many dozens of Muslim countries around the aspiration for that amount of money, maybe world, I know, but they have virtually no down the track if Palestinians accept a influence or impact on Israel or the US, and it’s demilitarized, weak, broken-up state. important to know that a number of Muslim, So, frankly, I’m not surprised Palestinians Arab states are, in fact, looking to maybe make a won’t accept it and reject it, and if you’re a deal with Israel. They may not accept the Trump logical, sensible person, you would as well. So, I peace plan, but they are increasingly close with think really that the issue here is Israel and the Israel; they are very keen to isolate Iran; they are US can throw money at the problem but, keen to share defense arrangements; they are ultimately, unless you make a political deal and keen to get Israeli weapons and surveillance you actually imagine what an equitable solution technology. will be, this problem will continue to get worse. That’s the reality of what’s happening in the And that will happen if Netanyahu loses the Middle East. And of course, Israel is very happy upcoming election because it’s the third Israeli about that. For decades, the Arab world was election in a year happening in early March; he particularly united against Israel. That has might win or he might lose. We don’t know yet, radically changed in the last 10 years. On paper, of course, but the likely alternative, the yes, many leaders came out and they are opposed opposition leader, thinks pretty much in exactly to the peace plan, but in practice, it actually is the same way. He supports annexing territory. very different. It’s very conceivable that either He’s a right-winger in Israel. He doesn’t see some will accept the peace plan or a version of it Palestinians as equal human beings. because they’re so keen to become close to Israel So, the sad reality politically here, in Israel at because of their fear of Iran. least, is that both major sides of politics think exactly the same way. In fact, even before Ziabari: Again, on the peace plan, Jared Trump’s plan, Benny Gantz, the leading Kushner, the main architect of the deal, has opposition leader, flew to Washington to said Palestinians have repeatedly missed essentially meet Trump and give him his blessing opportunities for peace, and that they should for the plan, essentially saying that if I win the accept the deal if they want a viable state of election in March and I become prime minister, their own. Do you think this plan is genuinely I’ll move forward with that plan as Netanyahu what will guarantee an independent will if he wins. So, this is a very elaborate but Palestinian state and bring an end to the
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seven-decade-old conflict, or was Kushner makes Israel and America very happy. They’re simply trying to sell his deal by saying so? very content with that situation because the Loewenstein: Jared Kushner was being a Palestinian Authority today is essentially the typical colonial master saying how his policemen for the occupation. They are armed misbehaving subjects, the Palestinians, were not and trained by Israel and international forces to behaving nicely. I mean it’s basically the agenda essentially go around the West Bank, suppressing of Kushner. He has spent his entire life around the opposition to their rule and keep calm. But Israeli settlements. His family supports the keeping calm means keeping Israel happy, and a settlements. Kushner is a right-wing lot of Palestinians are very upset and angry about fundamentalist and so the idea that someone like that [and] rightly so. So, to me, until the him and all the other people around him who Palestinian Authority is either abolished or drafted this plan — David Friedman and others radically reformed, which I’m not convinced is — have any real intention or understanding or actually possible, and we have free and fair care about Palestinians, the answer is no because elections, they are also part of the problem. what’s suggested is not a viable Palestinian state. If Palestinians have a choice between the Ziabari: Benjamin Netanyahu recently said status quo and the prospect of some kind of state, that Trump is the “the best friend that Israel which is not really a state — with no has ever had in the White House.” The Trump independence, no army, no freedom of movement administration has strived to promote itself as really, no ability to go in and out as you please — the most pro-Israel in the country’s modern because Israel ultimately is the master of that history. Why is Trump so persistent in state, it’s very reasonable that they will reject it, appealing to the Israelis? Does he gain which is what they’ve done. domestically? At the moment, there is no viable alternative Loewenstein: I think he thinks that it does. I on the table, but the challenge now is for think there are a few reasons: One, the Palestinians as a mass movement, both within Republican Party is very pro-Israel. He’s got a Palestine and globally to devise a new strategy very strong evangelical Christian base who are which could involve, for example, a “one-person, also very fanatically pro-Israel. The majority of one-vote” campaign, to say that the two-state Jews in America have always voted Democrat, so solution is dead, it’s been dead arguably for 20 they wouldn’t vote for Trump anyway. There are years, and now we demand equal rights in the obviously some Jews who do vote for state — which is, to me, an international law Republicans or Trump, but they are very few. So, requirement and also a very legitimate claim. he sees that his base is quite pro-Israel. He And that’s something, I think, that growing doesn’t see any downside because the numbers of Palestinians do support, are talking Palestinians as a people and as a lobby group are about it and that has to be emphasized with the very weak as opposed to the pro-Israel lobby in leadership, namely the Palestinian Authority and America, which is very strong and powerful. Hamas. So, he does see it as beneficial for him and, But let’s be clear: The leadership in Palestine obviously, we will see this year in the US is part of the problem as well. They are corrupt whether it helps him win reelection. I mean the and they’ve been in power for far too long. Israel issue on its own will not win reelection, but They’ve not had free and fair elections for a very we need to see whether this issue becomes a long time. Many Palestinians treat them with serious one during the campaign once we know contempt because they mostly are very old men who Donald Trump is facing, whether it’s Bernie who don’t speak for Palestinian people, and that’s Sanders or somebody else. So yes, I think Trump a problem. And, of course, that situation is what sees it as beneficial to his agenda and outlook.
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Also, frankly, Trump and many people around shown on this issue, amongst other issues, that him hate Muslims, hate Arabs, hate Palestinians. they’re very toothless and powerless and the It very much fits into their worldview. There is United Nations is exactly the same. So, contempt, open contempt to people who are not ultimately, the resolution of this issue will not white, who are different to them, who are brown, come through the UN. With the Security Council, who have different skin, who have a different there are obviously various countries that have religion and who have a different background, veto power. Then there is just not really any and the Palestinians are simply part of that, viable way to see the situation changing that way unfortunately. unless the global makeup shifts. And with the international law, there have Ziabari: Israeli settlements in the occupied obviously been a number of attempts over the West Bank are considered illegal, according to years to bring justice to the Palestinians, by the UN Security Council’s Resolution 2334. trying to prosecute Israeli prime ministers or However, the US recently shifted its position defense minsters or army generals. Virtually none on the settlements, no longer considering them of them ever succeeded in many countries, a violation of international law. What will be including in Europe, which may be more open to the effects of the new US approach? Will it such things. I think that will change eventually, encourage Israel to construct more housing but I think we’re a long way away from that still, units in the West Bank while the UN Security sadly. Council still sticks to its stance? Loewenstein: Well, one of the key problems Ziabari: By saying that international with this conflict is that international law and the organizations such as the United Nations and United Nations are toothless and often powerless. the Security Council are powerless and unable They’re choosing not to exercise their power to come up with a panacea for the Israeli- because, ultimately, the settlements have been Palestinian conflict, are you implying that the illegal since the beginning in 1967; virtually the settlement of the crisis is merely contingent entire world agrees with that except for Israel and upon the will and determination of any US the US. The United States did change its position government, or is it a matter of having a recently, but to be honest, it had that position reliable broker in the White House? unofficially for decades. Loewenstein: Well, ultimately, the US has Israel has been building settlements for 52-53 never been that reliable broker because they’ve years, and there are now 750,000 Jewish settlers always been what I would call “Israel’s lawyer.” all living illegally in the West Bank and East They’ve always been on Israel’s side. This has Jerusalem. No one seriously thinks they’re going been pretty much the case in the last 50 years. So, to be removed; they’re there permanently, the there’s never really been an American occupation is now permanent. That’s the reality government, Democrat or Republican, that has which Israel has created. viewed Palestinians as having equal rights to So, one of the really disappointing aspects of Israeli Jews. this whole issue is that the International Criminal The only possible change to that view is if Court, which has been really weak on many someone like Bernie Sanders wins the global conflicts for many years including this presidency. He has talked about seeing one, just recently announced that, possibly, Palestinians as human beings, talking about a they’re going to move forward with an peace deal and trying to negotiate, which may or investigation into some of the issues around the may not happen, because there’ll be a huge Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But even if they do, amount of pressure on him to either back down or and it’s not clear that they will, the ICC has to not make it the focus of his presidency. He will
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be so busy trying to undo years of damage done though many Israeli Jews, when they’re asked in by Trump if he wins this year. studies, will say the occupation is not their ideal So, someone like him is a possibility but, outcome, they continually vote for politicians that ultimately, I think the US has placed itself at the are making the settlements permanent. center of global negotiations. What the United It’s interesting that it’s definitely a minority of Nations should have done, and the European Israeli Jews who are very pro-settler. That is true, Union particularly should have done years ago but that shows in some way the strategic but did not, was to make themselves a viable brilliance of the settler movement that a minority alternative power source to the US. And the population in Israel have spent 50+ years being European Union has failed in doing that, and now able to be the key drivers of Israeli government as Europe increasingly becomes politically policy where the majority of Israelis are either fractured, there is no consensus; there are paralyzed, blind or deaf, including willfully blind growing numbers of Eastern European states to what’s going on. particularly that are very pro-Israel, including And it’s amazing how you can have an Hungary and Poland. There are some Western occupation down the road from your house if you European nations that are more critical of Israel, live inside Tel Aviv or West Jerusalem where a like Belgium, France and others, but they’re quite lot of Israeli Jews live. And they are never going weak and the EU works on consensus, but there’s to the West Bank; they never meet Palestinians; simply no consensus there. they often express incredibly racist views. So, apart from the US and the EU, where is Obviously, I’m generalizing. There are many this alternative global broker going to come Israeli Jews who don’t think like this, but a lot of from? It’s not going to be the Arab states. I don’t public opinion polls of Israeli Jews find racism know where that comes from right now. That’s very strong against Palestinians. They wouldn’t the problem. And until there is a viable share an apartment block with a Palestinian; they alternative, this situation will continue to be wouldn’t want to send their child to the same managed badly by the more powerful forces school or kindergarten as a Palestinian Muslim or which are Israel and the US. Christian child. There’s very deep racism here. And there’s racism on the Palestinian side, too, Ziabari: A 2019 survey by the Van Leer but most studies have shown that Israeli Jews are Institute found that 71% of Jews in Israel much more racist to Arabs than the other way believes there is a moral problem with the around, despite decades and decades of conflict Israeli occupation of Palestine. Israel appears with the Palestinians who are the occupied to be highly divided on the issue of occupation. people, not the other way around. Is there any chance these fissures might lead to So, I think without outside international a change of policy on the part of the Israeli pressure, either from the government or other government? places, it’s very hard to see the Israeli Jewish Loewenstein: I wish there was. But the truth population rising up because, ultimately, people is that most people I speak to here who are don’t give up power by choice. They don’t give looking for change — I’m talking about on the up their privileges by choice. We saw that in Israeli Jewish side — have accepted many years South Africa during apartheid. White South ago that that change will not happen. In other Africans didn’t one day wake up and say: Gee! I words, it will not happen within the country. really want to give blacks equal rights. There are definitely people within Israeli Jewish No. They realized it over years of society who are very opposed to what’s going on, international pressure and, obviously, a very and they are very outspoken and they are very strong black movement led by the ANC [African brave, but there are very few of them. And even National Congress] and Nelson Mandela who
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showed them that South African whites had a under public scrutiny by placing the capital Delhi choice: you either accept blacks as equals or you under the National Security Act that allows the become an increasingly global pariah and outcast police to detain anyone for 12 months without society. And at the moment, Israel is a long way trial. away from that, but that’s the future potentially According to a recent survey by India Today, unless there’s growing international pressure 43% of people believe that the CAA and NRC against Israel to change its policies. are concerted attempts to divert people’s attention away from more important issues, such as the country’s economic slowdown. India is facing its * Kourosh Ziabari is an award-winning Iranian slowest growth in years, with unemployment at journalist. Antony Loewenstein is a journalist its highest level in over four decades. The who has written for The New York Times, The government is reportedly withholding data on Guardian, the BBC, The Washington Post, The issues such as unemployment and is revising Nation, Huffington Post, Haaretz and many economic growth numbers upwards. others. His latest book is “Pills, Powder and The BJP-led government of Prime Minister Smoke: Inside the Bloody War on Drugs.” Narendra Modi faces several challenges, of which the most important is addressing concerns around the CAA, the NRC and the violation of The BJP Rejects the Idea of a Hindu secular tenets of the Indian Constitution. The government’s silence on critical issues is creating Rashtra more anxiety among the public and, despite assurances from senior political leaders, fear that Ankita Mukhopadhyay & Sudhanshu Mittal legal residents may face deportation is still April 7, 2020 widespread. In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer talks to Sudhanshu Mittal, the vice president of In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer the Indian Olympic Association, president of the talks to Sudhanshu Mittal, the vice president Kho-Kho Federation of India and a member of of the Indian Olympic Association. the BJP, about the public’s concerns over the controversial legislation and the BJP’s image as a ince December 2019, India has witnessed a Hindu nationalist party. series of protests against the new S Citizenship Amendment Act (CAA) and Ankita Mukhopadhyay: The National Register the government’s decision to create a National of Citizens will be registering all Indian Register of Citizens (NRC). The CAA proposes citizens. Many fear that some citizens could be to give fast-track citizenship to religious excluded from the NRC. These excluded minorities of three neighboring countries, citizens would largely be Muslim because Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan. However, Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists, Parsis and it blatantly excludes Muslims while failing to Christians can claim citizenship through CAA. address the persecution of minorities in other What do you have to say about such fears? neighboring nations like Sri Lanka and Myanmar. Sudhanshu Mittal: Let us understand why The ruling Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) has there is the need for an NRC in the first place and come under fire for forcefully detaining whether there is opposition to it. In Assam, protesters, attacking innocent people and agitation against illegal immigrants began once clamping down on all forms of opposition toward the population doubled. In normal conditions, the new legislation. The government also came within 10 years, the population should increase
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by approximately 20%. In 1971, 2 million [to] be included in the NRC. The apprehensions and 2.5 million people had immigrated to Assam. fear psychosis that has been created around the However, the rate of population growth since NRC is unfounded because in the NRC, what is then isn’t even close to 20%; it is a staggering true for a Muslim person is true for a Hindu, 43%, which shows that several illegal immigrants Christian or Parsi. The documentation required have entered India after 1971. for the NRC doesn’t look at religion — it only When the NRC was conducted, the total looks at documents that prove Indian citizenship. number of identified illegal Bangladeshis was between 7-8 million. These folks were scared that Mukhopadhyay: There is a lot of confusion they can be identified anytime. The NRC gave around the documents that need to be them the opportunity of faking their documents furnished to be included in the NRC. Why is and becoming Indian citizens. So, Badruddin the government silent on the guidelines of the Ajmal [the head of the All India United NRC? Democratic Front in the state of Assam] Mittal: There can be over 100 documents to welcomed the final list of the NRC because all of prove one’s citizenship. When the NRC was his brethren who feared identification got the conducted in Assam, there were some 17-18 time to become legitimate citizens of India. documents that were declared valid to prove How is the experience of the NRC against one’s citizenship. It’s not about possessing one Muslims? I believe there has been a deliberate card — it is multiple evidences that can establish attempt to spread misinformation and play on your citizenship. If anyone has a problem with fear psychosis. the process, there is an appellate authority to resolve the issue. It’s not a bureaucratic exercise Mukhopadhyay: Systems have loopholes, and that leaves no remedy in case of an error. the NRC is one of them. A legal citizen can be The eruption of fear around the NRC was identified as illegal under the NRC. What is largely fueled by some people with political the remedy in such a case? interests. They spread false information to Mittal: There are remedies for an error like accentuate fear in the minds of Muslims, that. When the first list of the NRC was out, it convincing them that this will be discriminatory had identified 4 million people as illegal to them, whereas facts are contrary to that. The immigrants. The final list has 2 million names. NRC was welcomed by the Muslim leadership in There were startling cases of exclusion, and the Assam. mistake was rectified by including these people. In systems that have inadequacies, there is the Mukhopadhyay: What will happen to those possibility of abrasion. But should one use the who are identified as non-citizens? Where will abrasion to completely discredit the system? I they go? believe that the system should be evaluated on its Mittal: Identification will not lead to norms, not its exceptions or abrasions. deportation. This is a fact that must be Let us understand what the NRC is. The NRC understood by everyone. Every country takes is merely a database of all Indian citizens. It is an decisions based on a few facts and makes exercise which identifies and records for the decisions based on the practicality and country who its citizens are. Every country must desirability of the solution. know who its citizens are. I fail to understand the Identification has been misconstrued as opposition to this. I understand that there is an deportation. You have to understand that if we apprehension that it will leave out a lot of people. deport people, the other country must accept But we must understand that there are multiple them, right? I can push you out, but if the other documents to prove one’s citizenship in order to country doesn’t take you in, then the entire
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exercise is fruitless. Once we identify that you’re residents who have lived in a local area for the not a legal citizen of India, we will disenfranchise last six months or more. these people. The fate of Indian democracy must be decided by its citizens and not by non-citizens. Mukhopadhyay: The BJP has been criticized This is similar to a restriction on owning property intensely for excluding Muslims under the in India. For example, a foreigner can’t own Citizenship Amendment Act. What does your property in India without the permission of the party aim to achieve through the CAA? Reserve Bank of India. There are various Mittal: I will reiterate what senior members implications of the identification. Deportation of the BJP have said: That the CAA aims to give isn’t the only implication. citizenship to people who are already in India, but on the ground of religious persecution. Mukhopadhyay: Why has the government not explicitly mentioned this anywhere? Mukhopadhyay: What about those minorities Mittal: As I said earlier, we haven’t explicitly like the Rohingya, who are persecuted in mentioned this because that’s not been the countries like Myanmar? Why were they experience of those who underwent the exercise excluded? of the NRC. Has anyone deported the people Mittal: Myanmar isn’t a theocratic state. India identified as illegal in Assam under the NRC? didn’t take the Rohingya in because they came to India via Bangladesh. And the Rohingya wanted Mukhopadhyay: There are reports of to enter India for economic reasons, not because detention camps in Assam for those identified they were persecuted religiously. When Myanmar as illegal under the NRC. What is the purpose expelled them, the Rohingya felt the heat and of the detention camps? went to Bangladesh. From there, they entered Mittal: Assam had detention camps … before India. They are not people who migrated to India the NRC was implemented. There were tribunals from Myanmar, they came from Bangladesh. that decided the fate of a person who was As I said, the persecution of one community in presumed to be an illegal immigrant, and those Myanmar is not equivalent to the persecution of identified were sent to detention camps. These religious minorities in Bangladesh, because camps were not made specifically for the CAA Bangladesh is a theocracy and Myanmar is a non- and NRC. This is also misinformation being theocratic state. spread by those with political interests. Mukhopadhyay: The BJP could have simply Mukhopadhyay: There is a lot of confusion solved the illegal immigration issue by between the National Population Register tightening the borders. (NPR) and the NRC. How is NPR different Mittal: Border fencing is being pursued from NRC? Are they related? strictly by this government. Earlier governments Mittal: There’s a lot of unnecessary fear thrived on illegal immigrants. Why is Mamata about the NRC, and everything is being linked to Banerjee [the chief minister of West Bengal] it. This situation reminds me of the days when the opposing border fencing in Bengal? Because her Aadhaar card, India’s biometric ID system, was largest vote bank today is the illegal immigrants made a mandatory identification. People thought from Bangladesh who are settled in West Bengal. it would be an indirect route to conduct an NRC. It’s the vote-bank politics that compromises with But Aadhaar is merely an identification of the national interest to prevent illegal residents, not citizens of this country. There is a immigration in this country. distinction between a resident and a citizen of this country. Similarly, the NPR is a list of usual
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Mukhopadhyay: How is the BJP planning to only when violence has taken place and public implement the CAA and NRC even amidst property has been damaged. In Jawaharlal Nehru opposition in several states? University (JNU), the police had to become a Mittal: As per the constitution, citizenship is silent spectator as they weren’t allowed inside the the sovereign function of the center. A state campus. On one hand, people say things like, doesn’t have any say on matters of citizenship. Where is the police when violence is taking Indian states don’t have locus standi to prevent place? On the other hand, you say the police any exercise to identify illegal citizens of this shouldn’t enter a university campus. You can’t country. We will go ahead with it as it’s the have double standards. function and responsibility of the center. Mukhopadhyay: Why did the police choose to Mukhopadhyay: The Delhi Police is under be a mute spectator when students were beat public scrutiny after policemen beat up up in JNU? protesters in Jamia Millia Islamia university Mittal: The police are not allowed to enter the and Seelampur. What happened? Do you JNU campus unless the vice chancellor allows think the police went overboard and has to be them [to]. You can’t have rules of engagement held to account for its actions? suiting your convenience. Mittal: I have one question for you: Was there violence preceding the police action? Mukhopadhyay: There is a lot of negative Fundamental to law and order is the presumption news coverage on the JNU incident and police that nobody is permitted to take law into their violence against protesters. How does the BJP own hands. If order has to be maintained, law has plan to address this negative image? to be enforced. If buses are burned, if violence is Mittal: Why is no one talking about the perpetrated, if public property is damaged, what violence which took place during the protests? is the police expected to do? Is it expected to be a Why is everybody silent on that? Do we endorse mute spectator or go after the rioters? rioting? Do we endorse damage to public The Delhi police beat up the mob when it property? Do we endorse the beating of innocent started to commit violence. The Delhi Police people by rioters? Do we endorse the burning of entered the premises of Jamia Millia Islamia after buses? the mob entered the campus. Jamia’s administration had a responsibility to prevent Mukhopadhyay: Who are these rioters? outsiders from entering the campus. If outsiders Mittal: Either political activists or people who are rioters who belong to the mob and damage have been misled into believing that they will be public property, then they have to be held up, discriminated against by the CAA and NRC. right? There are political outfits which have successfully created false campaigns and Mukhopadhyay: There are reports of innocent inculcated fear psychosis to the extent that at the students who were beaten up by the police in slightest of bidding, violence can be instigated in Jamia Millia Islamia. What do you have to say India. about that? Mittal: If any excess has been committed, an Mukhopadhyay: Recent government actions inquiry will be conducted. The police has no right such as the passing of the CAA, the to beat up an innocent student. An inquiry will construction of the Ram Mandir temple in determine whether the students were innocent or Ayodhya and the abrogation of Section 370 in not, whether they were part of the rioters or they the state of Jammu and Kashmir have caused were themselves perpetrators. Police has acted
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unease among Muslims. Is the BJP anti- were deliberately shown out of proportion to Muslim? create an impression that this is an all-India Mittal: Let us analyze each issue. Jammu and phenomenon, which is quite unfortunate, in my Kashmir is not a Muslim issue. It’s a regional opinion. issue. How is the abrogation of Section 370 in Kashmir an anti-Muslim issue? This move was Mukhopadhyay: There are parallels being an administrative one. Jammu and Kashmir also drawn between the BJP government and that has Kashmiri Pandits, who are as passionate of the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) about Kashmir as the Muslims. It’s a regional government. The UPA government didn’t issue, and not an issue of Islam. undertake any harsh or violent measures when The other thing you talked about is the a national anti-corruption movement was judgement on the Ram temple. That is not the organized against the government by Anna handiwork of this government. It was a judicial Hazare in 2011. The term “state oppression” is process and, in the process, the judgement was being used for the Modi government. Does the delivered. How can this be attributed to the BJP? BJP want to suppress any form of dissent? The CAA too has nothing to do with Muslims. Mittal: If the way Anna Hazare was picked A certain political section is frustrated and fears up from Ramlila ground and his supporters were complete annihilation, owing to which they are lathi-charged — if that was not state oppression, creating false propaganda and distilling fear in then what is state oppression? In 2011, the anti- the public. corruption movement was completely silent and We are nationalists. We perform what we non-violent, but violence was carried out against think is our national duty. The BJP doesn’t do innocent protesters by the UPA government. things for electoral gains. The electoral gain is Today, there is violence being perpetrated on incidental. Any government that has done good sites of protest. We are trying to contain violence work will inform people about their work. And by acting against it. There’s a qualitative we like to be judged on our work. difference.
Mukhopadhyay: Why has the Indian media Mukhopadhyay: India is currently facing an been critical of these measures? economic slowdown. Many attribute it to the Mittal: After a long time, the media has got BJP’s 2016 demonetization policy. Do you an opportunity to lash out against the agree? government. If you remember, most of Indian Mittal: I completely disagree. To date, media is left-dominated and hostile to the right nobody has been able to give me the analogy of wing. This hostile media was on the receiving how demonetization has affected the economy. end after their doomsday seers incorrectly Please understand that the money was not taken predicted a loss for Narendra Modi in the 2019 away by the government. What affects the election. Now, reeling under that onslaught, the economy adversely is a lack of liquidity. During media got an opportunity to lash back, and they demonetization, there was no lack of liquidity. have exploited it to the full. The public was only inconvenienced for a month, Another example is the violence that was when they faced problems in withdrawing money showcased by the media in the state of Uttar and conducting financial transactions. In fact, [all Pradesh (UP). In UP, the violence was actually the] money that came into the economy following contained by the state government, as it was very demonetization went to the banking channel. If forthcoming and strict, particularly toward those the money [was put back into] the economy, I fail who damaged public property and took law into to understand how it has affected the economy. their [own] hands. Sporadic protests in the state This baffles me.
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India is seeing an economic downturn because this clearly, the Lutyens’ media has the kind of foreign direct investment (FDI) we underreported this aspect. anticipated didn’t come into the economy. An infusion of capital is fundamental to economic Mukhopadhyay: However, your government is growth. There are multiple reasons for low FDI, viewed as draconian owing to measures like including trade tensions between the US and the implementation of Section 144 that China. In addition, a lot of judicial orders have prohibits public gathering of more than four created discontinuity in business, like the people, and directives being issued to the cancellation of licenses. India has also become media for reporting on the protests over the riskier for investors. CAA. Your government is also being labeled as fascist in the media. Mukhopadhyay: What is the plan to get the Mittal: I fail to understand where this is economy back on track? coming from. In India, the media is free. Your Mittal: Stable government is critical for independence to write has never been under economic growth. In the last five years, the challenge. The fact that so much is written Congress [India’s main opposition party] acted against the government shows that the media is irresponsibly by opposing for the sake of free. The evidence is out there, as the media opposing. They snowballed all reforms we freely and continuously writes against the attempted because they had a majority in the government. Rajya Sabha [upper house of Parliament]. This kind of news is being propagated by the The reaction to the goods and services tax opposition that has chosen to become (GST) by the Congress is a testimony of irresponsible in their lust for power. No low is irresponsible politics. Instead of bipartisanship, low for the opposition. Once upon a time, they have chosen to play politics with the future national interest was paramount. When the Kargil of this country, which is unfortunate. Today, we War between India and Pakistan was going on in have the majority in both Lok Sabha [lower 1999, the Congress remained silent and never house] and Rajya Sabha, I think we will see a lot criticized the government. of reforms and initiatives and lot of speed which In fact, they supported the endeavor. Contrary were earlier blunted by the obstructionism of the to that, when the Pulwama attack took place, the Congress using their majority in the Rajya Sabha. way the media acted indicated the lust for power of the opposition, which has discarded sensibility. Mukhopadhyay: Under the BJP, the idea of a Hindu Rashtra has become prominent. Does the BJP plan to create a Hindu religious *Ankita Mukopadhyay is a journalist based in identity for India? New Delhi who holds a postgraduate degree from Mittal: The BJP has always rejected the London School of Economics. Sudhanshu theocracy. We have rejected the concept of the Mittal is an Indian politician affiliated with the Hindu Rashtra as the BJP doesn’t believe in Bharatiya Janata Party. theocracy. If that is the core stance of the BJP, then where is the fear of a Hindu Rashtra coming from?
Mukhopadhyay: Why is this fact not out in the public? Mittal: This depends on media coverage. Although senior leaders of the BJP have stated
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India’s Health-Care System Is in Nilanjana Sen: Is corruption a big issue in Shambles India’s health-care system? I.P. Singh: Corruption has been all pervasive
in every sector and every walk of life right from Nilanjana Sen & I.P. Singh the early 1960s. Unfortunately, it has spread to May 18, 2020 the health-care sector as well. In health care,
corruption takes myriad forms such as unnecessary procedures, overcharging for In this guest edition of The Interview, Fair necessary procedures and not providing treatment Observer talks to Dr. I.P. Singh, a senior or services that have already been paid for. The surgeon with more than five decades of mentality that pervades the environment outside professional experience. the medical profession has finally seeped into health care too, and it is not possible to insulate ndia has an abysmally low percentage of the profession from the outside environment. people with access to decent health care. Quacks and unqualified practitioners abound About 300 million Indian citizens live below I and comprise between 57% to 58% of India’s so- the poverty line and, for them, medicine is called doctors. I remember a case from some time prohibitively expensive. For decades, serious ago when some quack claimed that he had medical conditions have pushed families into removed a dead serpent from the abdomen of a poverty and destitution. lady. He probably removed a necrose intestine From 2000 to 2015, the annual national and claimed to have found a snake. In another health-care expenditure averaged around 4.00% famous case, a doctor in Assam claimed to have of GDP; the Indian government spent only transplanted a pig’s heart into a male patient. around 1% of GDP, with families largely This doctor wanted to be recognized for his chipping in with the remaining 3.00%. achievement even though the patient died. In 2018, the government launched Ayushman Doctors and quacks also prescribe fake or Bharat, a health insurance scheme for the bottom substandard drugs in remote areas. We have to 40% of India’s population. Access remains realize that 70% of our population lives in far- patchy. Furthermore, health-care infrastructure flung rural areas, and it is very difficult to remains pitiable, acute poverty persists and so monitor what happens there. Most people are does lack of education or awareness. This leaves barely literate, so a lot of unethical practices go millions vulnerable to exploitation or neglect, or unnoticed and unchecked. Corruption is now both. A 2018 study by The Lancet found that 2.4 endemic in India’s health-care system. million Indians die of treatable conditions every year. Of the 136 nations examined in this study, Sen: In such an unequal country, what is the India was in the worst situation. real state of health-care coverage? Can the In this guest edition of The Interview, new government-backed insurance system be Nilanjana Sen talks to Dr. I.P. Singh, a senior a success? consultant in plastic and reconstructive surgery at Singh: There are two main reasons for poor the Indraprastha Apollo Hospitals, New Delhi, health-care coverage. First, we don’t have enough about the state of the health-care system in India, trained medical personnel. The World Health the role of the private sector and the challenges Organization recommends a ratio of 1:1,000, i.e., faced by professionals in the field. we should have one doctor for every thousand This interview was conducted prior to the persons. For India, the doctor-population ratio outbreak of the COVID-19 pandemic. statistic is unclear and murky. We do not know whether we have one doctor for 1,700, 1,500 or
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1,000 persons. We lack clarity because we do not practicing fraud. Of these, the government barred know how many doctors are registered medical 97 hospitals from its insurance scheme. This practitioners, how many practitioners are still year, it barred another 171 hospitals. Such fraud active, how many are out of practice and how will derail Ayushman Bharat. many are quacks. The government admits that more than 75% of the primary health-care system Sen: The present government seeks to involve is managed by people who are not qualified to the private sector in the health-care system. practice medicine. This is one of the major Will this help improve accountability and reasons for poor health care in India. reduce malpractices? Second, most of the trained medical personnel Singh: The intention behind this idea is good, are not willing to serve in rural areas, which lack but one man or one agency with good intentions basic facilities and infrastructure such as cannot set everything right. There has to be a electricity and roads. Even though basic tectonic cultural shift. Many unscrupulous people amenities have improved in recent years, working will claim benefits at the cost of voiceless people at rural medical centers is often demoralizing. who will lose out. There will be cases of wrong There is rampant pilfering of drugs, billings, overcharging or charges for malfunctioning equipment and terrible waste investigations that are simply not done. So, management. Further, there is a lack of auditing the system and holding fraudsters professional development opportunities, poor accountable is crucial. However, I am not sure management and a lack of transparency at all the government would be able to find so many levels. auditors or be able to prosecute most fraudsters. The new insurance backed system of Besides, there is an acute lack of basic Ayushman Bharat is a very good idea to start infrastructure. with, but I hope that the people who have planned it have done their math correctly. It is an Sen: What exactly is this lack of infrastructure extremely difficult and arduous task to plan you are referring to? health care for roughly 500 million people. If you Singh: As I mentioned earlier, there is an look at health care across the world, uniform and acute shortage of medical facilities in the rural fairly good health coverage is limited to Britain, areas. Having said that, we must remember that France, Germany, Austria, Norway, Sweden, health-care infrastructure doesn’t mean medical Switzerland and some other countries in Europe. facilities such as a hospital or a primary health Health care is fairly decent for most people in center alone. It also includes good training the US, but the American health-care system has institutions, laboratories and research facilities. its share of major flaws. Approximately 33% of There are hardly any such facilities in this the American population does not have adequate country except for the Central Drug Research medical insurance and is left at the mercy of God. Institute in Lucknow, the Centre for Cellular and Many more Indians find themselves in a similar Molecular Biology in Hyderabad, the All India situation. India’s large population means that the Institute of Medical Sciences and a handful of government has to provide health care at scale other places. Even existing facilities lack funds and, therefore, must get its mathematics right for for research, which is dominated by foreign the program to be successful. pharmaceutical firms who have the money to Ayushman Bharat must not only sort out invest in research. They market, advertise and finance but also build a team of dedicated staff. sell their drugs, equipment and medical devices at Only then can they plug gaps and leakages in the astronomical prices to make large profits. system. Last year, I was reading the newspaper Sometimes, these drugs are hyped up and private and was shocked to learn that 338 hospitals were
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hospitals become willing partners in prescribing Once the trade goes underground, prices become them because they get a share of the profit. very difficult to control, further aggravating the One drug called Xigris was used for original problem. So, companies know that they septicemia. A single dose of Xigris cost more have bargaining power over the government. than $8,000, and I know of no patient who survived after being given this drug. Later, Eli Sen: What are the other issues facing Indian Lilly withdrew this drug from the market. Big health care? pharmaceutical companies often sell such drugs Singh: Medical education has declined in developing countries like India to make a precipitously. When I studied at King George’s killing. Medical College, my professors were extraordinary. Today, medical colleges are run by Sen: Are you saying big pharmaceutical politicians, bureaucrats and property dealers companies are taking advantage of patients? along with corporate houses. It is bizarre that Singh: Yes, big pharmaceutical companies people who ran sweet shops or dairy farms have spend huge sums on advertisements and rope in suddenly started medical colleges. Many students doctors through various inducements. Take the who graduate from such institutions are doctors case of knee and hip implants in India. Many only in name and are really little better than implants, which were stopped in developed quacks. countries a good two or three decades ago, were The Medical Council of India is deeply being used in India until very recently. If this is compromised. Ketan Desai, one of its past not taking advantage of patients in poor presidents, was found guilty of corruption. He countries, I don’t know what else is. was convicted of taking bribes to approve shady institutions as recognized medical colleges. With Sen: If there are so many malpractices by big the fox guarding the henhouse, it is no surprise pharmaceutical companies, what can the that regulation is utterly ineffective in government do to control them? safeguarding the interests of citizens. Singh: It is very difficult to exercise control There is another major issue. During British over these companies because most of them are rule, the Indian Medical Service (IMS) and state multinational. They do not lie under India’s medical services provided the backbone of health jurisdiction. Furthermore, India depends on other care to a limited population. After independence, countries for active pharmaceutical ingredients. the Indian Administrative Service (IAS) and the In fact, 66.69% come from China alone. Indian Police Service continued, but the IMS was Foreign players are not prepared to negotiate with discontinued. Health care was now the the government on price. The drug controller of responsibility of the states, but they were not India has tried to control prices of some drugs given taxation powers to fund it. such as antibiotics, anti-tuberculosis medicines India never planned its health-care system and antimalarial tablets, but this has led properly. Politicians and IAS officers had no companies to stop production of many life-saving domain expertise. Doctors, nurses and medical drugs when their profit margins have gone down. professionals were cut out of policymaking. Unsurprisingly, India’s health-care system is in Sen: Is that not sheer blackmail and shambles. profiteering? Singh: Yes, it is. Once the companies stop production, there are shortages and panic often *Nilanjana Sen is a former associate editor at grips the market. People start to hoard essential Fair Observer. Dr. I.P. Singh is a senior plastic medicines and sell them in the black market.
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and reconstructive surgeon who has been a reduces maintenance costs and has the benefit of leading pioneer in his field. generating less noise and vibration. In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer talks to Dr. Abdallah and Dr. Bicer of Hamad Bin Will Qatar Succeed in Hosting the Khalifa University in Doha, Qatar, about the First Carbon-Neutral World Cup? country’s transition to clean energy, the advantages of electric vehicles and the hopes for the first carbon-neutral World Cup. Kourosh Ziabari, Mohamed Abdallah & Yusuf
Bicer Kourosh Ziabari: Does the electric bus project May 26, 2020 have the potential to open up new business opportunities? Aside from cutting carbon dioxide emissions, what are some of the In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer benefits it can offer? talks to Dr. Mohamed Abdallah and Dr. Yusuf Mohamed Abdallah: Bus transportation Bicer, of Hamad Bin Khalifa University in networks around the world are mainly powered Doha, Qatar, about the country’s transition to by fossil fuel derivatives such as gasoline, diesel clean energy. or even compressed natural gas. Components used in conventional buses therefore operate he 22nd FIFA World Cup in 2022 will be along combustion theory lines and utilize hosted by Qatar, meaning that for the first different types of combustion engines. Electric T time in history the international buses not only help to reduce carbon dioxide association football bonanza will be held in the emissions but also other pollutants attributed to Arab world. Football aficionados are waiting to conventional vehicles. These include particulate see how a Muslim-majority country that beat the matters, especially in diesel vehicles, nitrogen United States as host will deliver on what is oxides, carbon monoxides and sulfur oxides. In arguably the most watched sporting event in the electric vehicles, these emissions are eliminated world. during operation. The use of electric motors in The government of Qatar is investing buses and other transportation also brings smarter phenomenal sums of money into making the components into vehicles such as batteries, tournament a success. Between $100 and $220 intelligent power control units, diverse sensors billion is going into propping up infrastructure, and self-driving algorithm developments. stadiums, roads and hotels. For the first time, an The electrification of Qatar’s public integrated electric bus system connecting transportation sector will provide many new different parts of the country will be set in motion business opportunities including the to actualize what experts say may be the first manufacturing of spare parts for electric motors carbon-neutral World Cup. and development of electronic circuit elements. In line with its National Vision 2030, Qatar Vehicles aside, this initiative will provide further aspires to become a “pioneer in eco-friendly opportunities for charging station enterprises. As transport services,” and the Ministry of Transport the world gradually makes the transition from and Communications is working on finalizing centralized to distributed power generation, there strategy and legislation to initiate the use of will be several local prosumers in the electrical electric buses across the nation. Aside from grid. These include companies and individuals slashing carbon dioxide emissions, the use of with onsite power generation and the ability to electric vehicles protects the transportation sell electricity to specific consumers, such as system from fluctuations in global oil prices, charging stations. Charging station owners can
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then generate electricity onsite from renewables, transportation, Mowasalat (Karwa), has created store it and supply to electric buses or vehicles on special driving schools for teaching the new demand. This enables energy trading business curricula for electric buses. All drivers will be opportunities among prosumers and charging ready for the World Cup. stations. Ziabari: What are the environmental benefits Ziabari: Qatar will be hosting the FIFA World of using electric buses in cities? To what extent Cup in 2022 — the first time such a major does electric mobility decrease the quantity of international sporting event will be held in the greenhouse gas emissions linked to Middle East. How will the integrated electric transportation? bus project contribute to the facilitation of Bicer: As mentioned, conventional buses transportation during the games? release significant amounts of greenhouse gases Yusuf Bicer: Qatar wants to implement and and other contaminants including carbon dioxide, host the first carbon-neutral World Cup. This sulfur oxide, nitrogen oxide and particulate environmentally-focused ambition necessitates matters. Since most buses are used in urban areas, sustainable approaches to the construction and this creates more polluted air and health operation of the country’s infrastructure, challenges. For example, breathing difficulties including its football stadiums. Electric public are among the main consequences of fossil fuel- transportation also has an important role to play driven buses. in enhancing the sustainability of the event. Since On the other hand, electric buses do not buses are associated with frequent stop and start release any of these emissions during operation, cycles, they are more emission-intensive than making them a cleaner, carbon-neutral cars. Conversely, electric motors are more alternative. Compared to the operation phase of efficient than combustion engines, making them conventional buses, there is a 100% reduction in vehicles of choice for reducing emissions and the quantity of greenhouse gas emissions. It preserving finite natural resources. should be noted that electricity production also Additionally, charging stations for electric causes emissions. However, when the whole life buses are easy to install, making refueling an cycle emissions are accounted for, from efficient and straightforward process. Once production to disposal, there is the potential for parked near stadiums, buses can be charged decreasing greenhouse gas emissions by about during games, thereby creating the conditions for 25% to 45%, depending on the electricity mix, more frequent services and reduced waiting times compared to conventional buses under the after and between matches. existing grid mix. In this respect, emissions associated with the power generation phase can Ziabari: Some experts say training drivers and also be minimized when renewable energy technicians to operate electric buses is one of sources are utilized, implying that the emission the challenges of utilizing such vehicles. How reduction potential can even go beyond 50%. do you think Qatar will cope with this? Another important point to note is that power Abdallah: The principle behind electric buses plants are mostly located outside urban areas in is not much different than their conventional rural locations, which reduces the emission counterparts. Both have similar components such intensity within crowded public places such as as steering wheels and pedals, which means they stadiums. operate in pretty much the same way. Given that Qatar has already started to integrate electric Ziabari: The world’s major oil producing buses into its fleet, training of new drivers is well countries, including Qatar, are the biggest underway. As the company responsible for public emitters of greenhouse gases. In 2017, Qatar
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had the highest per capita emission in the simply, it offers higher quality infrastructure and world, at 49 tons per person. Does the country more intelligent transportation systems. That’s have plans to change this pattern and because future transportation architecture is not minimize its contribution to air pollution by only about travel but also the smart management building up its use of renewable energy? of cities through intelligence, sensors and other Abdallah: It is important to emphasize that technologies. the given emission value accounts for the The main cost element of electric mobility exported oil and gas-associated emissions as well concerns the charging of vehicles. However, once as being based on calculation methodology, countries switch to distributed power generation, which is not a fair comparison. Therefore, the this challenge will be overcome and issues of emission per capita yields a high value compared access to electricity in non-developed countries to other countries. eliminated. That said, Qatar has a very comprehensive It is now a fact that renewable source-based national plan for minimizing air pollution. As set electricity generation is becoming cheaper day by out in Qatar National Vision 2030, the country is day, even beating the price of fossil fuels in many focused on developing sustainable oil and gas parts of the world due to abundant availability. operations and minimizing environmental This includes solar photovoltaic and wind turbine emissions. In order to achieve these targets, Qatar power generations. In several solar photovoltaic is planning to build several renewable energy projects recently conducted across the Middle power plants. The first large-scale renewable East and North Africa, the cost of electricity was project was tendered by KAHRAMAA for Al significantly lower than fossil fuel-based Kharsaah Solar Power Project with Siraj Energy, electricity. Once the technology is even more Marubeni and Total under the build, own, operate developed, electricity supplies will be even and transfer (BOOT) model for a period of 25 cheaper and easily used in electric mobility. In years. The solar power plant is expected to be this way, electric transportation can become more fully commissioned in April 2022 and, once affordable to the public. completed, will be able to meet 10% of peak electricity demand in the country. In addition, there are multiple small-scale * Kourosh Ziabari is an award-winning Iranian distributed solar energy applications across Qatar journalist. Mohammed Abdallah is an associate that are used for lighting, stations, air professor at the Information and Computing conditioning, to name but a few. There are also Technology Division of College of Science and plants that develop biomass power using waste, Engineering at Hamad Bin Khalifa University which significantly contributes to Qatar’s waste (HBKU) in Doha, Qatar. Yusuf Bicer is an reduction strategies. assistant professor of sustainable development in the College of Science and Engineering at Ziabari: Is electric mobility an option that will HBKU. transform the future of transportation, including in countries that lack adequate and high-quality transportation infrastructure? Do you think more countries will turn to this alternative because they will soon realize that traditional modes of transportation are too costly to run and maintain? Bicer: Electric mobility will definitely play an important role in future transport initiatives. Put
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Three Scenarios for a Post- vulnerable members of our societies that form the Coronavirus World most fragile part of the system. For Parsi, the real turning point for
understanding what a post-pandemic international Valerio Alfonso Bruno & Vittorio Emanuele system may look like is the upcoming Parsi presidential election in the United States. June 4, 2020 Currently, both the ongoing pandemic and the
countrywide protests following the death of
George Floyd, an unarmed black man, at the In this guest edition of The Interview, Valerio hands of Minneapolis police, dramatically Alfonso Bruno talks to Professor Vittorio demonstrate how the most vulnerable elements of Parsi about the possible state of the post- society are the most exposed and the least pandemic world and the various protected. If the US government fails to vulnerabilities COVID-19 has exposed within effectively protect its citizens from both the the existing system. health threat posed by COVID-19 as well as its
socioeconomic fallout, the result will be s the COVID-19 crisis is gradually catastrophic, with a consequent redistribution of slowing down, the world is bracing itself power domestically that will echo at the for a very likely second wave of the A international level. pandemic. While the shortcomings of the global In this guest edition of The Interview, Valerio response and the preparedness of individual Alfonso Bruno talks to Professor Vittorio Parsi countries will be open for debate and analysis for about the possible state of the post-pandemic a long time to come, attempting to forecast what world and the various vulnerabilities COVID-19 architecture the international system will assume has exposed within the existing system. after the immediate health crisis is over may prove to be even more challenging. While experts Valerio Alfonso Bruno: Professor Parsi, in offer a wide variety of perspectives, the debate on your latest book, “The Vulnerable: How the the post-coronavirus world is characterized by Pandemic Will Change the World,” you argue some recurring themes, such as the future of that the COVID-19 pandemic suddenly globalization, the fraught relationship between exposed the fragility and weakness of the the United States and China, the challenges current international system that for long had facing the European Union or the future role of been latent. You do so by using the evocative populism and the radical right. image of a vessel: Why did you choose this Vittorio Emanuele Parsi, professor of image? international relations at the Catholic University Vittorio Emanuele Parsi: I like the image of of Milan and author of “The Vulnerable: How the the vessel, and I used it in previous books as well. Pandemic Will Change the World,” proposes The vessel represents our globalized world. It is three possible alternative scenarios on the important that we start considering ourselves as a international system after COVID-19. Two are crew, being a part of the very same vessel while rather gloomy, with the international order navigating the oceans. It is important to characterized by a cynical return to “business as understand that this vessel cannot be replaced, it usual” or a turn toward self-centered nation- is the only one that we have. The vessel is states, ruled by populist, nationalist leaders. A vulnerable, and the crew is its most vulnerable third scenario does give some hope, provided we element. If there is no solidarity among the recognize and effectively protect the most members of the crew or its security is at risk, there is no future and no sailing.
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For a long time, we have considered, Globalization will resume its wild ride, however, erroneously, the vessel as safe and invincible, and with an increased number of the poor and the the safety of the crew as a “cost” to be squeezed, discontented, proposing again a now more than only to find out lately that nobody was actually at ever precarious and unstable process, with the US the rudder and that it was in a rather bad and China continuing their geopolitical condition. Now, the catastrophic event of the confrontation for the global leadership, and the COVID-19 pandemic suddenly requires that European Union keeping its marginal role. In mankind, as the members of the crew, learns particular in the EU, the domestic institutional from its mistakes and takes on the responsibility settings of the member states will see an of our world by leading the vessel. We should increased role of technical bodies and authorities, never forget that a vessel is conceived, built and leaving less and less space to the participation of operated from the awareness that its crew is citizens to the public debate. As with the vulnerable. After all, what is a vessel without its Congress of Vienna and the Restoration of 1815, crew? A ghost ship. this attempt will eventually show its limit to appear as an illusion. Bruno: You propose three possible scenarios that may await us post-COVID-19. It is Bruno: The second scenario you propose is the interesting that you name each of those fall of the (Western) Roman Empire. Different scenarios after a specific historical event — to the first scenario, here globalization would Restoration, after the Congress of Vienna of slow as the result of the pandemic, with 1814-15, the fall of the Roman Empire and, multilateral governance and international lastly, the Renaissance. Again, you use images, institutions becoming obsolete. Do you foresee this time historical images. Do you mean a comeback of strong and powerful nation- history may repeat itself? states? Parsi: I do consider the use of images and Parsi: If the impact of COVID-19 will be metaphors to be important in helping us heavy, limiting international trade and the understand the reality we are living, but it is economic interdependence based on the current important not to fall into anachronisms, being global value chains, then national-states will see tempted to link completely different historical their relevance growing again. The international contexts. Images and metaphors can be extremely system will be fragmented into several different useful, but their danger lies exactly in the risk of areas of economic and political influence, being carried over and ultimately lost during the substantially closed to each other. There will be transfer between the two terms put in contact by no countries capable of expressing global the image. leadership, with a relative decline of the United States and a proportionate rise of China. The Bruno: The first post-coronavirus scenario European Union may fall apart, under the blows you propose is the most plausible, at least in of nationalist, populist and radical-right parties the short term. Why did you name it that successfully mobilize a growing number of Restoration? In 1815, European kingdoms and citizens. empires were trying to put history back to right before the French Revolution of 1789. Do Bruno: In the third scenario, Renaissance, you you suggest countries and their executives may introduce an element of hope, betting on the be tempted to act as if this pandemic had possibility that we can actually learn from our never happened? mistakes in order to build a new international Parsi: Exactly, I mean precisely to return to system by protecting its most fragile element the “business as usual,” as nothing had happened.
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— human beings. Do you think something American society to avoid a united common front positive may derive from the pandemic? against his politics. Divide et impera. Parsi: Let’s make it clear: The pandemic is a huge, devastating defeat, which caught the world Bruno: Recently, the Democratic presidential completely unprepared. But as I said, we should hopeful Joe Biden tweeted that “When 100,000 learn from our mistakes, as in every crisis there is Americans died because of his incompetent an element of change and improvement — if we leadership, this president golfed. When are able to recognize and grasp it. Historically, Americans peacefully protested outside the mankind has been able to rise stronger and more White House, this president tear-gassed them equal after catastrophic events, also in recent for a photo-op. Donald Trump was elected to times, such as the crisis of 1929 and World War serve us all — but he only looks out for II. This could be a good occasion to build a more himself.” The issues of incompetence and fair society by reconciling politics and narcissism are growingly used to describe economics, democracy and the free market. The Trump’s presidency. Do you think there are European Union in particular may see the post- connections between the pandemic and the pandemic [period] as a possibility to relaunch the protests? integration project by supporting member states Parsi: Yes, at least two. The first one is the hit more severely by the virus, such as Italy and role of unfairness and inequality. The pandemic Spain. has hit everybody, but not in the same way. In order to achieve a real renaissance, a African Americans and Hispanics, and people on change in our behavior is paramount, a change low incomes, paid the highest prices to the virus. based on the awareness that the fight against the In the Bronx, the mortality of the pandemic was coronavirus was a collective effort. This is the double that of Manhattan. Similarly, the chances real lesson we got from the pandemic. that an African American may become a victim of violent behavior by the police are definitely Bruno: In light of the current protests in the higher than for a white person. United States following the death of George The second connection has to do with the Floyd at the hands of police, do you think this Trump presidency itself. The unfit management may represent a turning point in defining a made the consequences of the pandemic worse, new US leadership, starting from the next just as with the consequences of Floyd’s murder. presidential election? Not only that: The president fanned the flames of Parsi: I believe the irresponsibility, the the protests to provoke a rally- around-the-flag insensibility but also the carelessness expressed effect in his electoral base around the fear of by [President Donald] Trump’s statements do violence by the protesters. Trump is trying to concur in fueling violence. On one hand, this make people forget about his responsibility in the clearly signals that a change of leadership at the disastrous management of the pandemic. What is White House is necessary. On the other hand, it is most striking is the ruthlessness and the cynicism also revealing of how far this president can go in this president is using to jeopardize the US order to keep power. He is fueling a war against constitutional order to win reelection. the American people — the same people he vowed to defend, together with the Constitution. Bruno: In conclusion, it is possible to say that Trump’s game is clear: focusing on chaos and on you see both the pandemic and the brutality of the fear of chaos in order to hide the continuous the police as affecting the most vulnerable in slaughter provoked by his bad management of the US. So, rather curiously, we go back COVID-19, fueling the internal divisions of exactly to the title of your latest book, “The Vulnerable.”
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Parsi: Either in an exceptional event (the efforts by former President Barack Obama to pandemic) or a tragic, although common, practice bridge the religious and racial divides, anti- (unprovoked police violence), if you are Muslim prejudice was further heightened after “expendable” — a black person, a Hispanic, an the election of Donald Trump in 2016, leading to outcast at any level — your life is worth less than what the Council on American-Islamic Relations the lives of others. The injustice and the described as a “sharp rise” in a campaign against inequality discriminate always and in every case. “innocent Muslims, innocent immigrants and Not only can’t the system to protect them from mosques.” threats, but the system itself is a threat. What to Robert McKenzie, a senior fellow at New some sounds as “law and order,” for others is America, a Washington-based think tank, said in “caprice and violence.” Paradoxically, the 2018 that “political rhetoric from national leaders rhetoric of “we will win together against the has a real and measurable impact.” McKenzie led virus,” recalling the unity of the society against a data visualization project that logged anti- the pandemic, was dramatically and suddenly Muslim incidents. denied by the usual divisions within the country. A survey by the Institute for Social Policy and Disillusionment is a powerful accelerator. Understanding shows that 62% of Muslims in the United States, including 68% of Muslim women, experienced religious discrimination in 2019. The *Valerio Alfonso Bruno is a senior fellow at the Pew Research Center reported that an Centre for Analysis of the Radical Right overwhelming majority of US adults (82%) agree (CARR). Vittorio Emanuele Parsi is an that Muslims are subject to at least some form of international relations professor and the director discrimination in America. This includes 56% of the Advanced School of Economics and who believe Muslims are discriminated against “a International Relations (ASERI) at the Catholic lot.” University of Milan, Italy. In 2018, the last year for which the FBI released official data on hate crimes committed across the US, anti-Muslim offenses accounted Why Has Islamophobia Risen in for 14.5% of 1,550 cases motivated by religion. Yet the actual number is believed to be much America? higher as many incidents are often unreported. President Trump’s comments and policies Kourosh Ziabari & Arun Kundnani regarding Muslims — most notably his executive July 8, 2020 order in 2017 banning immigration from several Muslim-majority countries — are linked to the spike in Islamophobic attitudes. In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer Arun Kundnani is a visiting assistant professor talks to Arun Kundnani, the author of “The in the Department of Media, Culture and Muslims are Coming! Islamophobia, Communication at New York University. He is Extremism, and the Domestic War on the author of the book “The Muslims Are Terror.” Coming! Islamophobia, Extremism, and the Domestic War on Terror.” slamophobia in the US has increased ever In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer since the 9/11 attacks in 2001. Discrimination talks to Kundnani about the rise in Islamophobia I and hate crimes against American Muslims and President Trump’s views toward Muslims. skyrocketed immediately after the deadliest assault on US soil took place. Despite sporadic
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Kourosh Ziabari: Bretton Tarrant — the alt- slave-owning settler colonists in the 18th century right terrorist who killed 51 Muslim seeking to overthrow an older regime. It worshippers in Christchurch, New Zealand, in considers the right to bear arms important, for 2019 — had described US President Donald example, because of the need for settler citizens Trump “as a symbol of renewed white identity to eliminate indigenous populations from and common purpose” in a manifesto. Is captured territory. Private property is sacrosanct Trump’s position on Muslims and his rhetoric because the American Revolution was carried out on immigrants emboldening white by a capitalist class which owned slaves. supremacists and racists within the US and Trump’s Muslim ban is, from this angle, not beyond? an aberration but consistent with the long history Arun Kundnani: Most activists in racist, of US racism and colonialism. From another nativist and neo-Nazi movements around the angle, there are indeed values of equality and world have seen in President Trump a fellow religious freedom expressed in the Constitution. traveler, if not someone who completely shares But for them to be valid today, they need to be their political agenda. His choice of advisers such unstitched from narratives of American as Stephen Miller and Steve Bannon confirms for exceptionalism and woven together in new ways them that he is an ally. His racist policies, such as for the 21st century. the Muslim travel ban and his mass separating of children from their migrant parents, are seen as Ziabari: In March 2016, President Trump the first steps in the creation of an “ethno-state,” appeared in an interview on CNN and claimed in which Jews, Muslims and anyone not that “Islam hates us … there’s a tremendous considered white will be violently eliminated. hatred there.” Do you think what he said is Trump’s presidency, along with the election in true? Do Muslims hate the United States? various European countries of racist political Kundnani: What many Muslims and, for that parties, is taken to be a sign that racist matter, many others around the world hate is not nationalism is on the rise. In fact, the rise of the the United States as such but its imperialism. The far right in the US and Europe is rooted in the Middle East is a region where resistance to the crisis of racial capitalism that has unfolded since US is especially strongly felt, largely because of the 2008 financial crisis. But Trump’s presence in America’s deep support for Israel. After the Cold the White House has emboldened organized War, US foreign policy planners mistakenly racists everywhere. interpreted this resistance as signaling Islam’s cultural incompatibility with modernity and Ziabari: As you said, one of the most imagined “radical Islam” as the new threat that controversial decisions President Trump made was to replace communism. shortly after taking office was to introduce a Trump’s comments repeat the Washington travel ban against citizens of several Muslim- foreign policy establishment’s tendency to regard majority countries. Was the “Muslim ban” resistance to the US as rooted in a clash of constitutional and reflective of the values that cultures, rather than a political desire for the United States stands for? freedom. But the Palestinian movement is not Kundnani: Liberals in the United States often ultimately a fight for religious or cultural values; assert that policies of racial or religious exclusion it is a struggle for political liberation from are incompatible with American values and the Israel’s military occupation. constitution. This ignores the more fraught relationship between American national identity Ziabari: Many media people and scholars and principles of racial equality and justice. The believe Trump built on anti-Muslim sentiment, US Constitution expressed the values of a class of among other appeals, to please his support
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base — mostly white Americans in Southern different in this respect. In the modern era, states — and boost his popularity. Will he imperial violence has to be legitimized and intensify his anti-Muslim rhetoric in the run- rationalized. The main way this happens is up to the 2020 elections as a campaign tactic? through racism. When empires confront Kundnani: In 2016, Trump styled himself as resistance, they typically frame it as the the brave outsider willing to speak truths that no expression of an inferior culture that does not one else in the establishment would do. There appreciate the “benefits” that empire brings. The were two kinds of “truths.” He was willing to normalization of anti-Muslim racism in the US is defy political correctness and make explicit in his driven by this dynamic; its impetus comes from rhetoric about Muslims and Mexicans what had the need to provide an interpretation of conflicts previously only been implicit in counterterrorism that are the result of US foreign policy. Since the and immigration policymaking; and he was 1990s, the US public has been repeatedly told willing to attack “globalist” elites who he said that Muslim populations harbor a religio-cultural had abandoned “ordinary” Americans. threat that can only be met through war, torture The dilemma for his 2020 reelection campaign and the suspension of human rights (anti-Muslim is that running as an outsider won’t work after racism at home has been the necessary correlate being in the White House for three years. He will of the US’ imperialism abroad). have to stand on his record. Were it not for the But all racisms are, in the end, connected. For COVID-19 pandemic, his campaign would have example, today’s Black Lives Matter activists are focused upon lower taxes and an improving monitored by the FBI as constituting a threat of economy. Alongside that, he would have terrorism, building on the language and presented himself as a victim of a liberal institutional apparatus that was established after establishment that tried to use the “deep state” to 9/11 to target Muslims. Likewise, the conspiracy weaken him and attack the Democrats as now theories that anti-Muslim propagandists have dominated by socialists in league with Muslim circulated over the last 10 years — which hold extremists. that Muslims secretly control the US government With the economy devastated, that second part and the European Union — are structurally will be more significant. Anti-Muslim rhetoric similar to the anti-Semitic conspiracy theories will be used again, therefore, but in a different that emerged in Europe a century ago. And their way from 2016. It won’t be about terrorists circulation today has helped create the space for crossing into the US through weak borders but anti-Semitic tropes of Jewish manipulation to about accusing the Democratic Party of return again to conservative political rhetoric. pandering to radicals — from Congresswomen Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib, who will be Ziabari: What is the role of mainstream media portrayed as anti-Semites and radical Muslims, to in perpetuating and spreading fear of Muslims the “left-wing mobs” of Black Lives Matter. and antipathy toward them? Do you think the corporate media are to blame for the rise of Ziabari: Moving away from Trump, why do anti-Muslim prejudice in the United States? you think the acceptance of anti-Muslim Kundnani: The conservative corporate media bigotry in the United States and the broader have mainstreamed the most blatant racism Western world has become normalized? Are against Muslims, giving credence to every anti-Muslim bigots held to the same standards stereotype and fear. To read and watch that other racists, including anti-Semites, are conservative media is to be presented with a view held to? of Islam as violent, deceptive and hateful. The Kundnani: All empires require violence to liberal corporate media is different but has also, sustain themselves, and the US empire is no in the end, enabled Islamophobia. Take, for
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example, an incident in 2019 involving Kundnani: The reason for this obvious Congresswoman Ilhan Omar. After she gave a divergence is the prejudice that everything speech in Los Angeles encouraging Muslims to Muslims do is driven by Islam, as if it is a be more politically active in asserting their rights, monolith that mechanically drives people who a few words were taken out of context and believe in it to acts of barbarism. But no religion misrepresented in conservative media such as works like that. We are all shaped by a complex The New York Post, to give the impression that mix of social, cultural and political conditions, she did not take 9/11 seriously — an obvious and then from those conditions [we] attempt to Islamophobic slur. The liberal media condemned mold ourselves according to our own personality. the attack on her. But the way it framed its Acts of violence are individual decisions, response was to say that conservatives were products of culture and laden with political wrong to characterize Omar as un-American and meanings. that her family had, after all, chosen to come to It makes little sense to think of cultures in the US as Somali refugees. grand terms like “Islam” and the “West” but, if What this does is set the terms of Omar’s we do, there is evidence that Islam is less prone acceptance by liberals: Were she to criticize US to violence. Polls of global public opinion foreign policy in Somalia, for example, and — suggest that whether one thinks that violence instead of expressing gratitude to the US— against civilians is legitimate has more to do with highlight America’s complicity in forcing her political context than religious belief; and such family to flee, she would then be cast as no violence is considered more acceptable in the US longer worthy of defense. For liberals, the and Europe than everywhere else in the world. In problem is one of conservative intolerance of a fact, “Islam is violent” is a false belief that has different religious identity held by a fellow been used to legitimize US wars which, since American. But that means that victims of racism 9/11, have caused the deaths of over 800,000 have to pass a national loyalty test before people. receiving support. And it erases from view the roots of anti-Muslim racism, not in religious Ziabari: What do you think needs to be done difference, but in US foreign policies — such as so that the gaps between American Muslims drone strikes — that liberals have been eager to and the general public are bridged and anti- defend. Muslim prejudice is eliminated? Are academics and advocacy organizations doing a Ziabari: A 2018 report by The Washington good job in tackling Islamophobia? Post asserts that the majority of mass Kundnani: Overcoming anti-Muslim racism shootings are carried out by white males. This in the US requires that we face up to the confirms the findings of a 2015 research study devastation that US foreign policy has inflicted in by the Northeastern University scholar Emma Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Libya, Somalia, E. Fridel, who revealed that most mass Yemen and Palestine. We have to look squarely shootings in the US are perpetrated by African at the human consequences of war, torture and American and white males, not immigrants economic destabilization. We must not erase and Muslims. When a Muslim citizen carries from these episodes in our history the victims out an act of violence, the entire religion is themselves, their agency, their voices, their blamed. When a white American kills several existence. Advocacy organizations and people in a shooting spree, the assailant is academics have spent too much time thinking of referred to as a “lone wolf” with a mental Islamophobia as a matter of individual attitudes illness. Why is it so? and beliefs influenced by fringe publicity campaigns or right-wing politicians. The focus
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instead needs to be on the deeper drivers of anti- and challenge. But we should not ignore the Muslim racism within the policies of US empire extent to which Trump’s open defense of racist and the racial fractures of neoliberal capitalism. police violence empowers forms of racist The demand should not be for better cultural oppression across US society, not least in law understanding of Islam or a more tolerant attitude enforcement itself. toward religious differences. Instead, the What’s more, the danger of Trump’s rhetoric argument should be that anti-Muslim racism is is that, in our outrage at his statements, we fall the means by which imperialist wars are into the trap of narrowing our focus to him alone. legitimized and that these wars are not in the When that happens, we forget that the Black interests of working-class Americans. Ultimately, Lives Matter movement is about the need for the issue of Islamophobia is inseparable from the deep-seated change to the whole way we deal question of how resources are distributed in the with issues of safety and violence in our US: ending anti-Muslim racism means creating a communities. We should not allow Trump’s US in which we use our resources to ensure the statements to sidetrack us from pursuing this health, education, and well-being of everyone agenda in every way possible. who lives here rather than to fund a military machine that serves the interests of corporate elites. *Kourosh Ziabari is an award-winning Iranian journalist. Arun Kundnani is currently a visiting Ziabari: What do you make of President assistant professor in the Department of Media, Trump’s response to the recent killing of an Culture, and Communication at New York African American man, George Floyd, in University. Minnesota while in police custody and the ensuing protests against police brutality and racism? Does the president’s handling of The One-State Reality to the Israeli- nationwide protests and his reaction to Floyd’s death reveal anything about his broader Palestinian Conflict worldview on the rights of minorities, including Muslims? Kourosh Ziabari & Ian Lustick Kundnani: Historically, the role of the July 13, 2020 president in moments of what is euphemistically called “racial tension” is to deploy old clichés of overcoming. His function is to speak somberly of In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer the “difficult” history of “racial animus” before talks to Ian Lustick, an American political uplifting us with pleas for “reconciliation” and scientist holding the Bess W. Heyman Chair in “renewal” of basic values. Such narratives of the Political Science Department of the “moving on” have enabled US white supremacy University of Pennsylvania. to survive to the present day by disguising itself as the past. No one will be surprised that Trump he Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been has chosen a different approach, painting the raging for over seven decades, and the Black Lives Matter protests as acts of extremism T prospects for peace have never seemed and hatred. more distant than today. The two-state solution, One could be tempted to say that, in not which was once the most widely-accepted expressing the usual establishment pieties, Trump remedy for the impasse, has lost traction, and is doing anti-racists an unintended favor: efforts by the United Nations and other undisguised racism is perhaps easier to expose
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intermediaries to resolve the dispute have got In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer nowhere. talks to Lustick about the ongoing skirmishes In 2018, a survey by the Palestinian Center for between the Israelis and Palestinians, the Policy and Survey Research and the Tami declining traction of the two-state solution, the Steinmetz Center for Peace Research at Tel Aviv BDS movement and the US support for Israel. University found that only 43% of Palestinians The transcript has been edited for clarity. and Israeli Jews support the establishment of an independent Palestinian state alongside Israel. Kourosh Ziabari: In your 2013 article in The This was down from 52% of Palestinians and New York Times titled “Two-State Illusion,” 47% of Israeli Jews who favored a two-state you note that Israelis and Palestinians have concept just a year prior. their own reasons to cling to the two-state In October 2019, the UN special coordinator ideal. For the Palestinians, you write that it’s a for the Middle East peace process, Nickolay matter of ensuring that diplomatic and Mladenov, described the situation in the occupied financial aid they receive keeps coming, and Palestinian Territories as “a multi-generational for the Israelis, this notion is a reflection of the tragedy.” He said to the Security Council that views of the Jewish Israeli majority that also Israeli settlements — which are illegal under shields Israel from international criticism. Are international law — on Palestinian land represent you saying that these reasons are morally a substantial obstacle to the peace process. unjustified? Why do you call the two-state US President Donald Trump, who is seen by solution an illusion? some observers as the most pro-Israel president Ian Lustick: I do not argue they are morally since Harry Truman, has billed himself as Israel’s unjustified. I am seeking to explain why they best friend in the White House. Trump has persist in the face of the implausibility if not the overturned the US position on many aspects of impossibility of attaining a negotiated two-state the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to the dismay of solution. I am trying to solve the puzzle of why the Palestinian people and leadership. His public agitation for it continues by these groups, administration has recognized Jerusalem as the one that wants a real two-state solution and one capital of Israel and no longer considers Israeli that does not, even though the leaders of each settlements in the West Bank to be inconsistent group know that the two-state solution cannot be with international law. achieved. The key to the answer is a “Nash In January, the Trump administration unveiled Equilibrium” in which both sides, and other its long-awaited peace plan. Dubbed the “deal of actors as well — the US government and the the century,” the 181-page document was peace process industry — can get what they promoted by Washington as the solution to the minimally need by effectively giving up on what Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Palestinian factions they really want. have rejected the proposal as overly biased and The mistaken idea that Israelis and one-sided in favor of Israel. Palestinians can actually reach an agreement of a Ian Lustick is an American political scientist two-state solution through negotiations is an holding the Bess W. Heyman Chair in the illusion because so many people still actually Political Science Department of the University of believe it is attainable when it is not. Pennsylvania. He is an advocate of what he calls a “one-state reality” to solve the conflict. His Ziabari: As you’ve explained in your writings, latest book, published in October 2019, is called the favorable two-state situation envisioned by “Paradigm Lost: From Two-State Solution to Israel is one that ignores Palestinian refugees’ One-State Reality.” “right of return,” guarantees that Jerusalem will be the capital of Israel and controlled by
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Israel, and fortifies the position of Jewish future better than the problems that Jews and settlements. On the other side, the Palestinian Arabs have today between the river and the sea. version of the two-state solution imagines the The substantive difference I have with return of refugees, demands the evacuation of advocates of the “one-state solution” is that they Israeli settlements and claims East Jerusalem imagine Jews and Arabs “negotiating,” as two as the capital of the Palestinian state. Do you sides, to agree on a new “one-state” arrangement. think the two sides will ever succeed in I do not share that view as even a possibility. But narrowing these stark differences? within the one-state reality, different groups of Lustick: No. The elements of the two-state Jews and Arabs can find different reasons to solution that would make it acceptable to cooperate or oppose one another, leading to new Palestinians are those that make it unacceptable and productive political processes and trends of to the majority of Israeli Jews who now have firm democratization. That is how, for example, the control of the Israeli government and of the United States was transformed from a white-ruled Israeli political arena. But once a one-state reality country with masses of freed slaves who is acknowledged, then both sides can agree that exercised no political rights whatsoever into a Jerusalem should be united and accessible to all multiracial democracy. Abraham Lincoln never who live within the state, that refugees within the imagined this as a “one-state solution” — it was borders of the state, at least, should have a right the unintended consequence of the union’s to move to and live in any part of the state, and annexation of the South, with its masses of black, that owners of land and property seized illegally non-citizen inhabitants, after the Civil War. or unjustly anywhere in the state can seek redress, or that discrimination in the right to own Ziabari: Several UN Security Council and inhabit homes anywhere in the state must be resolutions have been issued that call upon brought to an end. Israel to refrain from resorting to violence against Palestinian citizens, safeguard the Ziabari: You are an advocate of a one-state welfare and security of people living under solution to the decades-old Israeli–Palestinian occupation, halt its settlement constructions conflict. What are the characteristics of such a and withdraw from the lands it occupied country? Do you think Israelis and during the 1967 war. Some of the most Palestinians will really agree to live alongside important ones are Resolution 237, Resolution each other under a unified leadership, share 242 and Resolution 446. There are also resources, abandon their mutual grievances resolutions deploring Israel’s efforts to alter and refuse to engage in religious and political the status of Jerusalem. However, Israel has provocation against the other side while there ignored these formal expressions of the UN are no geographical borders separating them? and seems to face no consequences. How has Lustick: I do not advocate a “one-state Israel been able to disregard these resolutions solution” in the sense that I do not see a clear without paying a price? path from where we are now to that “pretty Lustick: The short answer to this is that the picture” of the future. I instead seek to analyze a Israel lobby has enforced extreme positions on reality — a one-state reality — that is far from US administrations so that the United States has pretty, and thereby not a solution. But that reality provided the economic, military, political and has dynamics which are not under the control of diplomatic support necessary for Israel to any one group, and those dynamics can lead to withstand such international pressures. The processes of democratization within the one-state reasons for the Israel lobby’s success are detailed reality that could produce a set of problems in the in my book and can be traced, ultimately, to the hard work and dedication of lobby activists, the
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misconceived passion of American Jews and people, are widely smeared as anti-Semites. Is evangelicals to “protect” Israel, and the the BDS movement anti-Semitic? fundamental character of American politics Lustick: There may be some anti-Semites which gives a single-issue movement in foreign among BDS supporters, but the movement itself policy enormous leverage over presidents and is no more anti-Semitic than the Jewish campaign over members of Congress. to boycott France during the Dreyfus trial was “anti-French people.” In fact, as it becomes Ziabari: You’ve worked with the State clearer to everyone that successful negotiations Department. How prudent and constructive is toward a two-state solution will not occur, the the current US administration’s policy on the significance of the BDS movement will grow Israeli-Palestinian conflict? What are the rapidly. implications of decisions such as recognizing It is an effective way to express, non- Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, cutting off violently, an approach to the conflict that funding to UNRWA and closing down the emphasizes increasing justice and quality of life PLO office in Washington, DC? Will the “deal for all those living between the river and the sea. of the century” resolve the Middle East Its focus is not on the particular institutional deadlock? architecture of an outcome, but on the extent to Lustick: US policy has, for decades, been which values of equality, democracy and non- unable to realize its foreign policy interests in this exclusivist rights to self-determination for Jews domain for reasons I explained earlier. Now that and Arabs can be realized. Nor do BDS the opportunity to do so via a two-state solution supporters need to agree on which forms of has been lost, the policies of the Trump discrimination, at which level, they focus on. administration hardly matter, except that by not Some may target sanctions against every Israeli emphasizing America’s emphasis on democracy institution, but many will target the most blatant and equality, it postpones the time when Israelis forms of discrimination, such as radically and Palestinians will begin the kinds of internal different rights and protections accorded to Arabs struggles over democracy and equal rights that vs. Jews in the West Bank, in the Jerusalem hold promise of improving the one-state reality. municipality or in southwest Israel, including the Gaza Strip. Ziabari: Is the Trump administration working to silence criticism of Israel by painting Ziabari: The settlement of disputes between narratives that are unequivocal in censuring Palestinians and Israelis requires a reliable Israel’s policies as anti-Semitic? Do you see and effective mediator, one in which both any difference between Trump’s efforts in parties have trust. Which government or protecting Israel against international international organization is most qualified to criticism with those of his predecessors? fulfill this role? Lustick: Yes. The Trump administration has Lustick: The time for mediation or sided in an unprecedentedly explicit way with the negotiation between Israeli Jews and Palestinian extreme wing of the Israel lobby and with Arabs, as two groups, has effectively passed. extreme and intolerant right-wing forces in Israel. That is no longer what is crucial. What is crucial are political processes within each group and Ziabari: The proponents of the boycott, across them. African Americans became divestment and sanctions (BDS) movement, empowered over generations, not because an who believe that denying Israel economic outside mediator helped arrange an agreement opportunities and investment will serve to between whites and blacks, but because gradually change its policies regarding the Palestinian
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self-interested whites saw opportunities in the those ghettos, the plan affirms the one-state emancipation of and alliances with blacks. reality while offering Israel at least temporary This approach does imagine a long-time protection against having to admit and defend frame, but when states with democratic elements apartheid by describing itself as a two-state are confronted with masses of formerly excluded solution. This is Palestine as Transkei or and despised populations, that is the kind of time Bophuthatswana. As a plan, it has no chance of it takes to achieve integration and being implemented. Its real function is to give democratization. In addition to the American case temporary cover to the deepening of silent vis-à-vis blacks, consider how long it took to apartheid. integrate Irish Catholics into British politics after Ireland was annexed in 1801, or how long it took South Africa to integrate and democratize its long *Kourosh Ziabari is an award-winning Iranian excluded and oppressed black majority. journalist. Ian S. Lustick holds the Bess W. Heyman Chair in the Political Science Ziabari: And a final question: Will the Department of the University of Pennsylvania. unveiling of President Trump’s “deal of the century” change anything for the reality of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Some Middle East Kashmir’s History and Future Meet observers say it is just a green light for Israel to go ahead with annexing more Palestinian in Literature territory. Others believe Israel doesn’t need such an endorsement and has been annexing Vikram Zutshi & Rakesh Kaul Palestinian lands anyway. What do you think September 24, 2020 about the deal and how it will transform the demographics and political calculus of the region? In this guest edition of The Interview, Vikram Lustick: The Trump plan is a hoax. In the Zutshi talks to author Rakesh Kaul. pages it devotes to its own justification appear all the Israeli government’s favorite propaganda or as long as one can remember, the lines. The “negotiations'' that produced it were stunningly beautiful valley of Kashmir has between the most ultranationalist and Fbeen a tinder box of clashing ideologies fundamentalist government in Israel’s history and and religious beliefs. In the not too distant past, it a group of “Israel firsters” in the White House was known as the land of Rishis, holy seers who who are just as extreme, though substantially combined the profound philosophies of more ignorant. Advanced originally as a plan to Hinduism, Buddhism and Sufism to create a give Palestinians a higher standard of living uniquely syncretic spiritual tradition. instead of a real state, it actually proposes no Today, it is the site of a bitter territorial money for Palestinians until they become dispute between India and Pakistan, a conflict Finland. Only after that will Israel be that has resulted in scores of casualties and the empowered, if it wishes, to grant them not a state, forced expulsion of hundreds of thousands of but something Israel is willing for Palestinians to Pandits, as Kashmir’s Hindus are commonly call a state but existing within the state of Israel. referred to. If realized as written, the plan would be an Author Rakesh K. Kaul’s first novel, “The archipelago of sealed Palestinian ghettos. By Last Queen of Kashmir” (Harper Collins India, awarding Israel prerogatives to patrol, supervise, 2015), tries to shed light on the roots of this intervene and regulate all movement to and from conflict by going back in time to explore the
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dramatic life of Kota Rani, the last ruler of the The word “sahitya,” which means “literature,” Hindu Lohara dynasty in Kashmir. Kota ruled as was coined by Kuntaka in Kashmir. Within monarch until 1339, when she was deposed by sahitya, there was a genre which dealt with all the Shah Mir, who became the first Muslim ruler of above-mentioned themes but went beyond. One Kashmir. could say that if science fiction’s domain was all His most recent work, “Dawn: The Warrior the possibilities within the bounded universe, Princess of Kashmir” (Penguin India, 2019), is an then in Kashmir specifically — and India unexpected foray into the far distant future. Set in generally — the stories explored all the 3000 AD, the book combines artificial possibilities within the unbounded inner-verse. intelligence, genetics and quantum theory with So, if you like “1984” or “Brave New World,” the ancient wisdom of Kashmir’s traditional Niti which are sci fi classics, then “Dawn” is going to stories, which inspire Dawn to overcome take you to a whole new level. Even more than seemingly impossible odds to save humanity Joseph Campbell, the stories that I have brought from impending destruction. are not mere myths or fantasies; they reveal a In this guest edition of The Interview, Vikram cognitive organ and knowledge acquisition Zutshi talks to Rakesh Kaul about the inspiration capability which unlocks the deterministic laws behind his two novels, childhood memories of his of nature in a manner that science is just strife-torn homeland and how his grandfather, the beginning to grapple with. famed Kashmiri mystic Pandit Gopi Krishna, guides the trajectory of his life and work. Zutshi: What does the story arc of the central character, Dawn, tell us about the state of the Vikram Zutshi: You have written what is world today? possibly the first science fiction novel set in Kaul: All science fiction stories in the West Kashmir. What inspired you to choose the and their Indic counterparts, the Niti stories, deal genre of science fiction to tell this story and with the existential question of the arc of one’s how does it adapt itself to Kashmiri history way of life. The mind is seduced by utopia and and culture? yet ends up in dystopia. One ignores at one’s Rakesh Kaul: I wish I could claim the honor peril the addictive narrative wars happening of being a pioneer with “Dawn: The Warrior today that are shaped and served by technology. Princess of Kashmir.” But much as I admire The world, whether global or local, is heading them, I have many literary ancestors who are the toward a duality of monopolistic cults that equals of Joseph Campbell, George Orwell and fiercely demand total obeisance. Non-conformity Aldous Huxley. I am a mere upholder of a results in a flameout at the hands of troll armies. literary tradition that is over 2,000 years old. Artificial intelligence is the omniscient eye Western science fiction imagines possibilities watching over us. What we cannot ignore is that like time travel, space exploration, parallel computer power is doubling every 20 months, universes, extraterrestrial life. There are robots data every six months, and the AI brain every who are more advanced in their intelligence than three months. The champions of AI are promising humans. that we will have sentience in 30 years. That is a But all these themes were part of the stories in close encounter of the third kind. That is within Kashmir, plus more. “Dawn” has in it an ancient the lifespan of the readers. The danger to you as story about a robot city with a remarkable safety an individual has never been greater. One cannot override. The Puranic story of Indra’s net holds take lightly the rising depression and suicide within it the concept of recursive universes. The graphs coupled with desperate drug usage. pinnacle of these stories is of course the Hence, the vital necessity for Dawn. collection of stories in the Yoga Vasistha.
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Dawn is the last girl left standing on earth in to this day. In my novels, the protagonists 3000 AD. She is facing an army of weaponized repeatedly draw upon it. AIs and mind-controlled automatons; they rule over a deadly world where men have lost their Zutshi: You have spoken about Niti, the souls and women have been slain — all heading traditional storytelling technique of Kashmir. to Sarvanash, the Great Apocalypse. This is a Please elaborate on Niti for the lay reader and story of a close encounter of the seventh kind. how it informed your work. How does Dawn arm herself? Can she win? Great Kaul: “Niti” means “the wise conduct of life.” Niti stories remind us that if the mind is a The first collection of Niti stories from Kashmir frenemy, then the need to nurture what is beyond is the 2,000-year-old celebrated Panchatantra, the mind that one can turn to and trust is which is the most translated collection of stories paramount. The Dawn lifehack that is presented from India. Kashmiri stories have found their is time-tested but oh so amazingly simple, yet way into the Aesop and Grimm fairy tales, powerful. Chaucer and Fontaine. The Kashmiris maintained that one is born Zutshi: Is the characterization of the main with only one birthright, namely the freedom to protagonist based on a real-life person? achieve what is one’s life quest. So, the Kaul: “Dawn” in Sanskrit is “usha.” Usha is existential question is, What is the “way of life” the most important goddess in the Rig Veda, the by which one can maximize one’s human oldest extant text in the world. By contrast, none potential? The Kashmiris defined life’s end goal of the goddesses that we think about today are in heroic terms as unbounded fulfillment while even mentioned there. Dawn is the harbinger of alive, not limited by the physical and the rebirth of life each morn. She is the only encompassing the metaphysical. But how does a Indian goddess who has spread around the world. mere Niti story enable you to achieve fulfillment Usha’s cognates are Eos in Greek, Aurora in and consciousness? Niti’s cultural promise is that Roman and Eostre in Anglo-Saxon [mythology], it enables one to face any threat, any challenge in which is the root of the word Easter —the festival reaching one’s goal as one travels through time of resurrection. Interestingly, Usha is also the and space. name of the sanctuary city where the Sanhedrin, How does Niti work? Let us start with the [Israel’s] rabbinical court, fled to in the 2nd Western perspective first. Descartes famously century. She is also the goddess of order, the said that wonder was the first passion of the soul. driver away of chaos and darkness. She is dawn, Kashmir spent a thousand years studying this she is hope, she is the wonder leading to phenomenon and helps us penetrate deeper here. resurrection. When we have an experience that is a total Humans recognized her wonder a long time surprise, we go WOW — an acronym for ago. They imagined Dawn born at the birth of the “wonder of wonder.” When we go wow, it is universe, whose one-pointed mission is to make expressing, How can this be? We not only accept darkness retreat and drive ahead fearlessly. the limited capacity of our senses and the mind, But Dawn is also a tribute to the warrior but we also have a profound moment of self- princesses of Kashmir, a land which was recognition that there is an unlimited capacity in celebrated for its women in practice and not just us to experience what lies beyond our knowledge. poetry. They were not merely martial warriors, The wormhole between the two brings the nor just holy warriors or ninja warriors, but much relish of the state of wonder which in India was more. The Kashmiris enshrined the dawn mantra described as “adbhuta rasa” in the text within themselves, men and women, and repeat it “Natyashastra,” written by another Kashmiri illuminati, “adbhuta” meaning “wonder” and
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“rasa” meaning “juice.” So, in the wow moment your earliest memories of your ancestral you momentarily taste the wonder juice. All Niti homeland? What do you hope to see in stories are written in the adbhuta rasa literary Kashmir’s future? style, and so is Dawn. Kaul: My earliest memories are of the journey that we would take to my homeland from Delhi, Zutshi: Your first novel, “The Last Queen of where my parents had migrated to after the Kashmir,” inspired by the story of Kota Rani, Kabali raids in October 1947. I remember my was a hit with Kashmiris in India and the mother dropping a coin into the raging river diaspora. What would you like readers to take Jhelum and praying for a safe journey as the bus away from the book and how is it relevant in would slowly creak across the hanging bridge in our times? the hill town of Ramban. Kaul: Yes, much to my surprise the novel Once there was portage across the old Banihal received critical acclaim and sold out! The tunnel, where a section had caved in, only small, second edition will be coming out worldwide in a open jeeps could ferry us with our bags from our month or so, with another beautiful cover of Kota buses across to the waiting buses on the other Rani! “The Last Queen of Kashmir” is a side. The old tunnel was dark with a few small historical epic about a great queen from India lamps that only accentuated the shadows. There who informs and inspires. It engages audiences were sections which were deliberately left bare in while serving as a cautionary tale for today. It the older tunnel so that the massive water flow was a precursor of what is now being called fail- inside the mountain could rush out. They did not lit. Much like Icarus, Kashmir’s humanist have the technology in those early days to divert civilization of oneness and inclusivity flew too the water. The sound of the rushing water still close to the Sun. resonates inside me. The story provides lessons on the importance Kashmir was a place of sensory overload. I of protecting, preserving and perpetuating our would sip the nectar endlessly from the social freedoms in a unified society from being honeysuckles, pluck the cherries growing in our divided by religious and cultural conflict. Kota garden. My cousin would rent a boat, and much Rani’s story shows that we should look for like Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn we leaders who protect freedom and defeat the pied would paddle through the water canals in our pipers within who threaten us with tyranny in the neighborhood raiding the mulberry trees growing guise of offering utopia. by the banks of the river. We would wake up Yet, “The Last Queen of Kashmir” is early in the morning and go for a hike to Hari eventually a resurrection story to show us how Parvat, walking through the Shia neighborhoods the light of knowledge and the power of freedom with the graveyards. Once we saw a crowd of can conquer all enemies. Kota was described as [Shia] self-flagellate as part of their religious always captivating, never captive. It is a highly observances, and we hid until they passed by. recommended read for all women because its There would be other mob gatherings, but we notion of femininity and feminine power may were culturally trained to avoid them. surprise them. Kota Rani is memory and Dawn is Once a year, we would go to my grandfather’s imagination. Both are reflections of the same retreat overlooking the Nishat. It was a huge double reflexive power. Memory is what makes apple orchard. Evening time we would scurry who you are, and imagination is what makes who back to the cabin because then the bears would you can be. come from the other side of the hill. Night was their foraging time. Zutshi: As a Kashmiri Hindu who moved to Nothing compared, though, to the experiences the United States fairly early in life, what are when the family would rent a houseboat,
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technically a doonga. We would go to the shrine Krishna was a pioneer in the land of spirituality. of Khir Bhavani for a week. The boat would His insights into the quantum nature of the body move slowly, and there would be endless tea predate the scientific discoveries of today. I poured from the samovar accompanied by the salute this great sage and scientist of the local breads. Family life seemed to have kith and twentieth century.” Dr. Karan Singh, the crown kin as an integral part. There was a feeling of prince of Kashmir who gave the eulogy at his intimate connectivity. At night, all the cousins funeral said, “In the 19th century, India gave the would gather. We would spread the mattresses on world Ramakrishna; in the 20th century it has the bottom of the boat and share the blankets. given the world Gopi Krishna.” Then it was storytime. The girls would cry that I suppose he shaped me even before I was we were scaring them when the boys would share born. He made the decision that he was going to the monster stories. But they would not leave the marry my mother without giving any dowry to group because they did not want to miss out. I break that pernicious social custom. His father- have brought some of these Kashmiri monsters in-law begged him, [saying] that they had bought and their stories into “Dawn.” a priceless wedding sari the day that my mother But, ultimately, Kashmir was about the mystic was born. But to no avail. My mother was experience. I would sit in the inner sanctorum of married in a simple cotton sari. My inception was our small temple at the end of the bridge on our in simplicity. little canal. There was barely space for a few. I He was my first guru, and he continues to would watch the water drops drip endlessly on guide me. I learned from him the critical the lingam. The small trident would be by the importance of being a family man, of community side. I would look at the paintings on the wall, service, especially toward widows and destitute each one a story and wonder about it all. The women, of being a fearless sastra warrior, of best, of course, would be the nighttime aarti at words being bridges, about poetry and the arts Khir Bhavani. It seemed that all of humanity was and, best of all, about the worlds beyond. I there with a lit lamp in their hands. The faces of treasure his letters. I can never forget the talk that the devout women and girls would be luminous, he gave at the United Nations where 600 Native the moonlight would give them a sheen. There American elders attended. It was a prophecy was beauty, love and innocence in the air. come true for them where it was stated that a As a Kashmiri, I would want the lakir ka fakir wise man from the East would come and give (blind ideologues) to disappear and the artist to them wisdom in a glasshouse. reign supreme. Translation: Those who police Would I have dared to embark on a 12-year others either morally or ideologically or journey to bring the story of a hidden Kota Rani religiously or by force of arms should go bye- without the inspiration of what it took him to bye. The rest will follow naturally, and the valley bring his story to the world? No. Especially when will emerge from its long, deep darkness. writing “Dawn,” his work was invaluable in steering me in describing the close encounter of Zutshi: You are the grandson of famed the seventh kind. What is the biotechnology of Kashmiri mystic, Pandit Gopi Krishna. In the evolutionary force within us? And then in the what way have his work and teachings epilogue for “Dawn,” it is all him because only informed and influenced the trajectory of your he has traveled there. Even now as I write this, life? his beaming face smiles at me. I smile back. Kaul: The Pandit was the last rishi of Kashmir, a lineage that goes back to the formation of the valley by Rishi Kashyapa. *Vikram Zutshi is a cultural critic, author and Deepak Chopra said of him, “Pandit Gopi filmmaker. Rakesh Kaul is a New Jersey-based
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business leader and the author of two bestselling about getting to know other cultures, meeting books. people from different backgrounds and learning about new places. In 2015, Napora traveled to Iran alone. She documented her experiences of What a Serial Traveler Thinks of traveling in the country in detail on her blog and Iran provided recommendations for those who are tinkering with the idea of visiting Iran. In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer Kourosh Ziabari & Kamila Napora talks to Napora about her experience in Iran, her September 30, 2020 observations of Iranian society and her views on
the portrayal of the country in the media. The transcript has been edited for clarity. This In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer interview took place before the outbreak of talks to Polish travel writer Kamila Napora. COVID-19.
ran’s unpopular quest for nuclear energy has Kourosh Ziabari: Where did the idea of dominated news headlines for decades. This traveling to Iran come from? Given the I has left little room for reporting on less- international isolation that Iran suffers from, discussed topics about the country. One of these it’s not a very popular destination for many is tourism. globetrotters and, at best, it received some 8 At a time of a pandemic, Iran continues to million tourists in 2018, which is still a low face grueling international sanctions and number compared to regional countries like domestic divisions. But it is an uncontested fact Turkey and the UAE. What did you know that the country has a long revered civilization, about Iran before going there, and what and getting to know the nation with all its motivated you to choose the country as one of intricacies and complexities is a challenging task. your stops? Universities around the world offer Iranian Kamila Napora: I remember reading about studies courses so students can learn about Iran Iran and seeing pictures from there as a kid, and and its history. In recent years, growing demand those images were so beautiful that they stayed to explore Iran has led to more travelers visiting with me this whole time and eventually made me the country, which is not a popular tourist want to visit Iran really badly. In the meantime, destination. some of my friends have traveled there and Today, much of what the global public knows shared some beautiful stories not only about the about Iran comes through the prism of the media. amazing places but especially hospitable people. Most of this reporting is negative and focuses on These stories sold me on Iran and, shortly after, I political crises. Many people may not know that booked my flights. Unfortunately, due to work, I Persians — long before the advent of Islam — had to cancel my initial trip, but my desire to visit practiced the world’s first monotheistic religion. Iran was so strong I ended up traveling there a It’s even unknown to many that Iran is home to few months later. 24 UNESCO World Heritage Sites and that But indeed, before my trip in 2015, there was there’s literally a cultural, historical or natural not much about Iran in the media or online, and attraction in every corner of the country worthy most of the news stories were about politics. It of visiting. was not easy to find many good travel resources Kamila Napora is a Polish travel writer and about visiting Iran. I feel it has improved a lot traveler whose adventurism has taken her to more since then. than 70 countries worldwide. She is passionate
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Ziabari: What were the first reactions when people around but, on the other, it made me feel you first told your family and friends that you uncomfortable and, eventually, I just avoided were planning to visit Iran? Were they going outside after dark. surprised or scared that you had made such a While I hated all these situations, I think I decision? know where they were coming from. Just like Napora: I’ve been traveling to less-known people outside of Iran have some stereotypes places for a while, so people around me weren’t about Persian people — who are often confused really surprised I chose Iran as my next with Arabs — local people might have their own destination. I got a lot of positive reactions, stereotypes about Western women traveling although there were some concerns that came alone. mostly from the lack of information about I would say that 95% of my time in Iran was traveling in the country. incredible, but that uneasy 5% made me think Back in World War II times, Iran had helped twice before recommending Iran as a destination Polish refugees a lot and some people still for inexperienced female solo travelers. remember it here [in Poland]. I think that helped a bit too in the way people perceive Iran in Ziabari: In a blog post about your trip to Iran, Poland. Before my trip, the situation in the you wrote that many people confuse Iran and Middle East and the refugee crisis in Europe Iraq, believing that it’s a war-torn country wasn’t so serious yet, so I didn’t [receive] any and under the rule of ISIS. Where do you concerns based on that — unlike my trip to think this confusion and misunderstanding Lebanon a year later. I think I went to Iran at the originates from? right time, when there were still not so many Napora: The lack of knowledge about the tensions. I’m afraid right now, the reaction of my world. But, at the same time, I don’t expect family and friends would be totally different, but people to know about every single territory in the this would come only from the unfamiliarity of world and what’s happening there. I expect the region and the bad press Iran gets. maybe 5% of the people to be really interested in current affairs and geography. So, even if these Ziabari: There is a strong stereotype that Iran comments about Iran and Iraq made me roll my is an unsafe place, especially for an eyes about that, I quickly remembered that if I’m independent, solo female traveler. Is the cliché interested in the region, it doesn’t mean everyone close to reality? How was your personal has to be. feeling while traveling across the country? I also come from a country that people, Napora: To be honest, Iran was one of the especially from outside of Europe, confuse with most difficult countries to travel around as a solo other destinations or have a completely false female traveler. This concept wasn’t very well image of. Over the years, I just learned not to known back then; in the 10 days I spent in Iran, I take these opinions too personally. And I think in didn’t meet any other woman traveling alone. I the case of Iran, it wasn’t the realistic image of had to do a lot of explaining that I was traveling the country, just the lack of knowledge about the on my own and that’s fine, I chose it to be that Middle East and what was happening there. After way. all, these two names [Iran and Iraq] are similar. But Iran was the only country where I had to deal with men trying to touch me, getting too Ziabari: There is often worrying news about close and asking for sex. This all happened Iran in the media, which is mostly the result of usually in the middle of the day, in the middle of the country’s dismal foreign relations and popular cities. On one hand, [being in a city regional policies. However, those who visit meant] I didn’t feel too afraid as there were Iran assert that the reality of Iranian people
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and the culture of Iran are totally detached them out. It was one of the experiences I will from its politics. Did you also come to this never forget. understanding after concluding your trip? Napora: Definitely! In every country, we Ziabari: What’s the most attractive thing should separate politics and people, as politicians about Iran that you observed and experienced don’t always represent their nation fully. It’s very during your trip? accurate in Iran, too. The majority of people I Napora: Even if I experienced similar met in Iran were warm, hospitable, welcoming hospitality in other places, I think the incredible and curious, and there was not a single moment hospitality of Iranian people is one of the best when I felt they are not fine with tourists visiting things about the country and it can make every their country. Quite the opposite, actually. traveler feel special. I felt all these friendly encounters were genuine. Also, Persian culture Ziabari: You wrote in one of your travel blogs and history are very interesting to learn about and about Iran that you had countless encounters should be more promoted. with people on the streets, restaurants and public places who approached you to offer Ziabari: Iran is the 17th largest country in the help or ask where you came from and what world in terms of territory. It has a population you thought of Iran. Why do you think this of more than 80 million people, the majority of experience happened so frequently? Did it whom are youths. It boasts 24 UNESCO ever make you feel uncomfortable? World Heritage Sites and a history dating Napora: No, I was very happy to talk to local back some 7,000 years. Why doesn’t Iran people as that’s what makes traveling so special receive many international visitors? What too. Since there are still not too many should the country do in order to become a independent travelers visiting Iran, those who popular tourist destination? venture there are somehow an attraction. I think Napora: Unfortunately, the bad press Iran locals were just curious [about] how I like their receives affects its tourism. The visa procedure country and wanted to make me feel welcome isn’t also the easiest and might make some people there. All these friendly encounters were one of doubt if it’s worth going through the hassle. With the reasons why I enjoyed my trip to Iran so so many interesting places in the world, Iran much. doesn’t get enough attention as it is not very present in the media, including travel media, and Ziabari: As you noted, Iranian people are people simply don’t know how beautiful and known for their hospitality and friendliness. worth a visit the country is. Tell us more about your experiences with There is a lack of proper promotion of tourism Iranian people and the treatment you received in Iran, and all we learn is from other travelers in different cities. Have you had similar who have visited the country. Opening up for experiences in other countries? travelers and making traveling to Iran easier Napora: I had a similar experience in other should be a priority. A lot has changed for the countries too, like New Zealand or Georgia, but better in the years since my visit, but there are Iran is among the top places I’ve met the most still many things that can be done to attract hospitable people. Except for the few tourists. uncomfortable situations I encountered as a solo female traveler, everyone was friendly and welcoming. I was invited to people’s houses for *Kamila Napora is a Polish solo traveler and dinner, I was invited to join them in restaurants, travel writer. Kourosh Ziabari is an award- and locals bought me Iranian dishes so I could try winning Iranian journalist.
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Governments Must Recognize the Kristeena Monteith, a young Jamaican, was Importance of the Youth one of the UN’s Young Leaders of the Sustainable Development Goals for 2018. She is
also the creative producer of the Talk Up Radio Kourosh Ziabari & Kristeena Monteith show run by young people and broadcast October 7, 2020 nationally in Jamaica.
In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer talks to Monteith about the role of young people In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer in the realization of the SDGs, the challenges talks to Kristeena Monteith, a 2018 UN Young ahead of democratic institutions and the media Leader for the Sustainable Development portrayal of youths. Goals. The transcript has been edited for clarity. This interview took place in 2019 at the 3rd n 2015, world leaders attending the United International Youth Forum on Creativity and Nations General Assembly agreed to 17 goals Heritage along the Silk Roads in Changsha, for a better world. Known as the Sustainable I China. Development Goals (SDGs), the aim is to meet these objectives by the year 2030 in a bid to end Kourosh Ziabari: What skills and abilities do poverty, achieve gender equality, ensure access to you think young people need in order to be quality education, promote economic growth and able to contribute to the Sustainable do much more. Development Goals? Today, there are 1.2 billion people aged 15 to Kristeena Monteith: We need to develop a 24 years, making up 16% of the world sort of social awareness of the issues affecting the population. So, to achieve the SDGs, countries world. I feel like sometimes we are, even in our around the world probably need the support of own societies, unaware of what is affecting the young people. The youth can build on their people, but then on a global level, we’re even less creativity, dynamism and talents to make the aware of the different issues. world a better place to live and to tackle the So, first of all, develop an appreciation for the challenges faced by the international community. fact that people deserve dignity, people deserve a Young people would benefit from the level of quality of life right across the board — implementation of the 2030 Agenda for regardless of whether they are or they’re not like Sustainable Development, as the SDGs are you — and then from there, you can start to officially known as. However, they are also really invest in understanding what exactly these active contributors in the development of the people need. So, one thing that the Sustainable goals. The engagement of young people in Development Goals give you is a framework sustainable development efforts is pivotal to within which to understand what quality of life achieving inclusive and stable societies. could mean to people right across the board — In September 2016, the Office of the UN whether it’s access to health services, access to Secretary-General’s Envoy on Youth introduced quality education, or whether it’s on a bigger the first class of the Young Leaders for the policy level being able to support themselves and Sustainable Development Goals. Their mission is their families and having financial stability in to advocate for the UN SDGs, promote creative their countries. ways of engaging youth in fulfilling the goals and All of these things matter because we’re trying working with different UN departments toward to build a world where people feel comfortable, accomplishing the 2030 Agenda. [and] feel like they can live to their best ability. So, once you pass the cultural understanding,
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then you need to be able to leverage your own addressing their concerns on employment, skills, whether that is your writing or your talent education, social justice, health and wellbeing, as a business person. It’s about turning the things equality and other similar concerns? that interest you and the things that you are Monteith: I think there are some governments innately passionate about into putting them at the that are trying. I know for a fact that the service of the world on a larger scale. government of Jamaica is trying. They’re trying So, whatever skills it is, it doesn’t matter what to listen, they’re trying to balance this really exactly your skills are. It’s about framing a way politically diverse and complicated world that we to turn that into helping to build a more equal live in and the region that we are in — with the society and a world where everybody has the global superpower, the USA — and the fact that potential to live fully. we need money from China to build and to improve infrastructure. So, there’s a lot of tension Ziabari: What organizations or entities do you going on. think are responsible for giving young people Then, you have to balance that with being a these skills and capabilities in order to be able sovereign nation, having to put your citizens just to work for the SDGs? at the forefront of what you do. And so, you have Monteith: That’s actually a very important very complex geopolitical issues that are playing question because you [need] to have support for out, and within that, you have a growing world developing this sort of mindset at every single population of young people who don’t level. So, every major institution in a young necessarily know how they fit in the process of person’s life — whether it’s their family, school, how much our issues should be prioritized — church or religious institution — as you go along how much the things that we want and we need in each and every one of these institutions, must order to live fully and to participate should be have a sort of mindset of what we’re doing. [That prioritized. is] building a better, more equal world for And I think a lot of times, governments don’t everyone. And so each and every one of them recognize the power of the youth voice. If you’re will put their power into different people from the building sustainability, the people who are going standpoint of trying to embrace them and trying to be here [the] longest are the youth. So, you to help them to understand what skills they need have to find ways to incorporate them into what to develop to contribute. you’re doing and to also facilitate them in So, if it’s a multi-sectoral, multi-angle interest developing a voice that, first of all, they can in creating that sort of sustainable future, then support you and your agenda. Because if you that’s where you’ll get the sustainability from want sustainability, if you want longevity, if you because all of us are working towards a joint want to produce policy that outlasts your goal. So, at every single level, every stakeholder, administration, you have to invest in young every business, every church, every mosque, people. That’s the only way to do that. every synagogue, each and every one of us has to achieve if not all of the goals, [then] at least one Ziabari: Right, that’s interesting. You are a you feel passionately about. Understanding how [2018] young leader for the Sustainable they interrelate with the other ones is all people Development Goals and have worked closely really need to support young people along that with different international organizations. Do journey. you think the United Nations specifically as well as other international bodies are doing Ziabari: Do you think that governments, enough to make sure that the voices of the especially in developing countries, are young people are heard? Can you give us properly listening to young people and examples?
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Monteith: Well, I think with the UN at the authorities and ask them questions. How have moment, from what I’m seeing from my been the reactions on both sides? Have these perspective, there’s a lot of capacity-building conversations generated concrete results, happening. So, they’re creating pathways for including changes in government policies? meaningful interaction. You have the SDG Monteith: What we’re trying to do is to bring Young Leaders, you have Generation Unlimited, government leaders and young people together in and they’re creating these pathways where more tangible ways, beyond just voting. We need empowered young people who are creative and to create more avenues so young people can passionate can have that sort of platform from make their voice heard and also to access which they can launch projects and they can call accurate, youth-friendly political information. upon other young people in their societies. Because as [I said] throughout the [2019] But on the other hand, I feel like they have a International Youth Forum on Creativity and very massive platform, and there are some ways Heritage along the Silk Roads in China, a lot of in which it could be utilized even to a greater the times, communication that [comes] from the extent, whether it’s beyond just the SDGs or the government is hugely in legal and political speak, UN youth strategy. I think we need to send a and we don’t speak like that and don’t understand greater message to governments [and] to that language. businesses of the power of the youth voice. So, we’ve been trying to bridge that sort of And we have a youth envoy, Jayathma gap, but also, we’ve been trying to get politicians Wickramanayake, whose platform is very to use social media more often to be more important, She is in direct touch with the UN accessible on a one-to-one basis. So, even on secretary-general, and I know she uses her Talk Up Radio, when we bring the ministers of platform very well. But I would love to see more government into the studio to talk to young than one UN youth envoy. I mean, she has a very people, it’s not just the four or five young people much a global perspective [and] she has a whole in the room. Usually, for the two weeks leading team behind her informing her, but this is still up to that event, we’ll be putting up calls on one young person out of the population. social media for young people to send in Then you look at the head of the UN and the questions via WhatsApp, via Facebook, etc. So heads of the UN [agencies]. They are always, that we have a body of questions that have come without fail, very old people, and right across the from all over the island, and then we pose those board it’s always the case. And I know with age questions in the room to the minister. comes experience and they’ve built long careers Change at the political level is often a very of long service and very good service, but I feel long process. It’s never just, OK, this is a very like as we go along the lines, we have to be good solution and let’s get it into parliament right pulling young people up with us and helping now. Oftentimes, it has to be vetted and them to develop capacity. investigated and there needs to be some academic So, you need to see more visibility of young backing to it. But what we’ve seen is that, people at the decision-making levels at the top of especially in the case of one minister in particular some of these UN boards. I think it would send a — i.e., the minister of health in Jamaica — he greater message if we saw more young people has changed his language in some sense in how there. he approaches issues. So since we spoke to him about issues like period poverty, we’ve seen Ziabari: Please tell us more about your work period poverty enter the political landscape as a on Talk Up Radio. I know you offer term. opportunities to young people to have And then you’ve heard from business leaders conversations with governments, leaders and and people in society saying that they’re going to
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develop solutions to this — even from across the diplomacy that has to be maintained as we go other parliamentary body, the PNP [People’s along because we have to recognize state powers National Party], that’s the other party. They’ve [as] that’s what they are. They were elected by actually different ministers and different the people — [though] sometimes not. But within opposition leaders that have come up with ideas those borders, we don’t really have jurisdiction as well. So, it’s that kind of change that we’re over how the government behaves. noticing where once an idea gets to the So, with people, you can reach out heart to mainstream, then more people start to engage heart, mind to mind and change them or sensitize with it. them, give them the information in order to put And I feel even that is a level of success. pressure on their own government, and in that Obviously, we would love to see more tangible sense, you do empower them politically to results, but we have to admit that political change advocate for the things that they want. Because if is a very long process. And we’re hoping that as they see that the SDGs are important and their we go along and a new budget is stabled and new government doesn’t, it’s upon them now to rise discussions are being held, these things would upon perhaps and elect another government or to also come up and from this forum [in 2019]. I’m reach out to the world for help in more tangible hoping to go back and have a conversation of that ways. kind with the minister of culture, trying to get her There are structures in place, for example, into the studio to actually talk to young people when coups are happening or when countries are about issues that were raised, like cultural calling for liberation or that kind of thing. There preservation, incorporating young people and are policies in place across the UN, across their energies and their creativity into cultural different bodies in order to support such practice in a more tangible way. So, we would movements. But especially in regimes that are push the issue beyond, whether or not they bring less democratic, I feel like the real change will it up. have to come from the people. They will have to be the ones that will lead it because we literally Ziabari: Let’s get back to the SDGs. You may cannot impose any sort of power on them. So, it admit that the Sustainable Development Goals will have to come from the people. are not a priority for some or many governments, especially those with less- Ziabari: What do you think, as a young leader, democratic and more repressive regimes. How can be done to help young people affected by do you think these countries should be war and conflict in the Middle East and North involved in efforts to contribute to the Africa to regain their confidence, reassert Sustainable Development Goals and make it a their identity and become proactive, involved priority for the benefit of their own people? members of their societies, especially if they Monteith: Well, you know, it’s a very are suffering from trauma and distress? complex, political situation because even as we Monteith: I have two ideas about this. First of [go] along, we recognize that nations are all, I come from a small country in the Caribbean, sovereign — they have all rights over what they and I see that we do not have any clue — do within their borders. Even if what they do will especially the young people — about many have negative repercussions for the globe, we still things, including what’s happening in these cannot impose our will on them. So, the best regions because we’re so far removed and it’s so thing to do is really to sensitize the people of that different from our reality that it almost doesn’t country to what the SDGs are and why they’re make sense to us. So, the first thing I think we important, and [then] hope that you can spark need to do is to ensure that information is flowing behavioral change. There is a level of respect and from these areas and is accessible to youth.
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Young people in Jamaica need to understand of the planet and are making people aware of what’s happening in Syria, what’s happening in the realities of the region? Or do you think the Lebanon, what’s happening in Egypt, what’s coverage is distorted and is not helpful for happening in Libya. We need to be aware of that young people across the world to understand because we’re global citizens. No longer [do] our what’s happening in conflict zones? people [live] in one area for their entire lives, and [no longer do] issues that are happening Monteith: In general, I think Western media are elsewhere [not] affect them. Increased migration not paying enough attention to what I said before, to Europe comes with restrictions for who else which is to give people opportunities to tell their can go there. own stories. So, I think we have one So, these issues will affect us, as these understanding of how politics flows and we don’t governments in Europe have to spend more on necessarily give these people the opportunity to accommodating people from these areas, and speak for themselves. So, even on Talk Up they’ll have less in terms of international aid to Radio, we’ve interviewed young people from send to our country. We need to understand the Egypt, from Lebanon and what we did was just connections in terms of what’s happening and give them the opportunity to speak and tell their that issues happening in one place are not own stories and to interpret the conflicts and necessarily divorced from what we will what’s happening from their own perspective. experience in our place. So, in Western media, I don’t think we do a Let’s be honest: Anybody can enter war at any good enough job of doing that, and I don’t think time. Conflict does not take much to kick off — we understand the importance of doing that. I it really is something that’s fragile. Peace is remember being at a journalism conference in fragile. Peace has to be worked on constantly and 2015, and the issue raised with the heads of CNN being able to understand the issues that lead to and BBC was that the news from outside of the the rise of certain instabilities in certain areas can dominant north tends to be one-sided — we only only help us to make our own democracy safer get reported on when we’re in conflict. We only and stronger. get reported on when there are massacres and But on another level, I think we need to be people are dying and there are natural disasters. I able to support people from these regions in never hear in the news that Jamaica is doing telling their own stories. They need to be the ones financially well or something good has happened. that are leading how these stories are told, and we I imagine that the same thing happens to different need to hear their authentic voices at the UN. At areas around the world, whether it’s the Middle every level, we need to make space for them. East or Africa, for example, especially sub- In our organizations, we have SDG young Saharan Africa. leaders who are from the Middle East. We need The media has an opportunity to set an agenda to ensure that we have that voice there so that in terms of how people understand issues. When we’re not getting an outside interpretation of the you don’t see something in the media, you tend to issue — so we’re getting the actual, accurate not think it’s important. I’m not seeing enough depiction from within. And I think that’s how coverage of the aftermath of the Arab Spring, you bridge the gap [and] that’s how you create [and] I’m not seeing enough coverage of what’s the change that can be lasting. happening right now on the ground and how people are feeling. The only place to get that Ziabari: Do you think the media are doing a information is [to] form our independent media, good job when it comes to relaying and you have to seek those sources because they information from the Middle East, North don’t ascend to the mainstream. So, if you’re not, Africa, this part of the world to the other parts for example, a journalist, you might not be really
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interested in going to look for that information. calling out when there’s been negative portrayals And I think with social media, we do have some of us in the media. opportunities to do that, but I know it doesn’t We have to actively fight that perception. So have the same power — it doesn’t have the same as young people in different regions, I think yes, reach or the same legitimacy as mainstream you can use social media and put out a more media. nuanced, more accurate version of who you are Mainstream journalists have to do a better job, as a people and your culture and your country. whether it’s bringing people from these areas into But when there has been negativity, when it’s the actual platforms that they own or even going been maligned by people, you have to call that there and giving [the people] the voice. We have out. to do better. You have to speak truth to power at every level. So do both: Try to reassert a positive image Ziabari: There are many stereotypes and and be confident in who you are, but also when cliches attached to different cultures and there’s negative and when there’s a slant, call it countries, and there are many people who buy out, talk about it and really say to these media into such narratives. What do you think young organizations that no, you’re doing a disservice to people can do to bridge the gaps between my culture when you do this. cultures and civilizations, debunk the myths and make sure that stereotypes do not prevail? Ziabari: Racism and racial discrimination are Monteith: Let’s speak from my Jamaican plagues that are affecting many modern perspective. We know what the world has said societies currently. Can you think of practical about us. We know how we’re perceived in a lot ways to combat racism, and do you think of places. I mean, governments make it quite there’s anything that young people can do in clear in whether or not they give us visa-free this fight? access or how we’re treated in airports or the Monteith: First of all, we have to understand ways in which the media and movies and music racism. I think too often, racism is reduced to depict us. discrimination, it’s reduced to prejudice and it’s To be honest, we do have a generally positive reduced to micro-aggressions. While those things perception of our own world as fun and creative are bad, they’re not necessarily racism. Racism is people, but there are some political issues to do a system, it’s a structure, it’s an ideology. It’s a with violence in our country and biased ways huge undertaking that is across societies, that is we’re perceived, and we have to counteract that bigger than individual nations and it’s asserted in with our own knowledge of who we are and policy. It’s asserted in how we interrelate as being confident in who we are as we go countries. It’s asserted in this sort of hierarchy throughout the world. that we have with Europe at the top and Africa at And so you will find Jamaicans living in every the bottom. It’s asserted with white people, light- single country you go to because we’re not afraid skinned people being portrayed in positive ways to venture beyond our borders and represent and then the darker you get, the worse off you are ourselves as a sovereign nation of power and in every single society. history and legacy. But beyond that, we also have When I look at Myanmar and I look at the to advocate at every single level for the Rohingya people, they are darker-skinned a lot of reassertion of our power as a country. It’s not the time. When I look across the world, wherever enough for governments to simply be biased in you go, you have dark-skinned people. They tend how they deal with us or for the media to be to be at the bottom of the totem pole. And I need biased in how they treat us and for us to say for countries that may not necessarily have black nothing about it. No! Jamaicans will always be people per se to understand how they are
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perpetuating racism when they create this class Ziabari: And a final question: We live in the division between the lighter-skinned people, the age of social media and super-quick fair-skinned people in their societies and the connections online. How can young people use darker ones. The same thing happens in India — these platforms to promote peace, the same thing happens in a number of countries understanding and intercultural dialogue? around the world. So, we have to understand the Monteith: Talk to each other, first of all. global flow of racism and the ways that we Forums of this nature [the International Youth perpetuate it. To practically fight it, there are a Forum] are very unique in that we meet a lot of number of ways. people from a lot of different countries and then One, you have to think about media we get to add each other on Facebook and on representation of people of darker skin. Too often Instagram, and so we get to understand how each we are villains. Too often we are stupid. Too person perceives their own nation and the issues often we have no agency, no power. Too often that are happening. our countries are portrayed in ways that do not So, we need to take up the mandate of give us any agency and so you perpetuate racism, investigating what’s happening in these countries you perpetuate human indignity when you do and consuming media from these countries in that. more tangible ways. We have to make it very apparent that these Young people have the opportunity to even things are very violent. You know, when you see, very literally, what’s happening in different portray people this way, you’re not just hurting countries right away. If you go on Instagram and their feelings, you’re doing actual violence if you search the hashtag for Kingston, you’ll see against them — you’re sanctioning their murder our culture, you’ll see our national heritage, sometimes. You have to do better. We have to you’ll see our natural environment, you’ll get a call it what it is. Because a lot of times, we’re not real perception of who we are. And that helps to talking enough about it and we’re not doing break some of the barriers. That helps to break enough about it. We are brushing it under the rug. some of the stereotypes. So, we need to do that And we need to do that on a larger scale. on a greater scale. So, when companies have poor advertising I feel like more of us need to understand the campaigns, the backlash has to go beyond social importance of international solidarity, of media opprobrium. It has to go into them actually understanding what it means to be a global losing money because we as people stand for citizen, of understanding the fact that our something greater than commercialism. We’re countries are not far apart, they’re not so not going to support your business if you’re divorced from each other in terms of issues. portraying black people and people of color in a So, as we use social media to access that kind bad way. We’re not going to patronize you at all. of content, we have to really internalize it as a We’re not going to do anything with you because way of living where we look at each other and we that kind of value is completely against what we don’t see somebody from a foreign country who stand for. So, we have to make a great stand in means nothing to me. We see people and we what we do. Sometimes, we talk a big game but understand that the same wishes and wants, we don’t actually take proper actions. And as interests and passions that we have, those people young people, we have to do that because we are have their own as well. one of the largest economic blocs. We pay for a Those people are experiencing a life in very lot of things, we buy a lot of things. So, we have similar ways sometimes. You know, they have power in commercialism in that sense. similar passions, and as long as we can relate on a human-to-human level through social media, I
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think we’ll be slowly moving in the right hawkish, and he has dragged the United States to direction. the brink of war with Iran. Some observers explain Trump’s overseas agenda by noting that he has been hellbent on *Kourosh Ziabari is an award-winning Iranian scoring political points by hurling out of the journalist. Kristeena Monteith is a Jamaican window the foreign policy legacy of his media-for-development specialist with over seven predecessor, Barack Obama. Others say he has years of experience producing youth-centered been focused on pulling off his “America First” civic media in Jamaica. policy, premised on putting US commitments and global leadership on the backburner and emphasizing the empowerment of the national What Explains Donald Trump’s economy. Stephen Zunes is a professor of politics and Foreign Policy? international studies at the University of San Francisco. A leading scholar of US affairs in the Kourosh Ziabari & Stephen Zunes Middle East, he is a senior policy analyst for October 20, 2020 Foreign Policy in Focus and an associate editor of the Peace Review journal. His latest book is “Western Sahara: War, Nationalism, and Conflict In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer Irresolution.” talks to Stephen Zunes, a professor of politics In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer and international studies at the University of talks to Zunes about Trump’s foreign policy San Francisco. challenges, his relationship with autocrats and his strategy in the Middle East. ver since his inauguration in 2017, US The transcript has been edited for clarity. This President Donald Trump has placed an interview took place in summer 2020. E emphasis on unilateralism and the rejection of international organizations and Kourosh Ziabari: In a recent article on treaties as the hallmarks of his foreign policy. Foreign Policy, the former undersecretary of Trump has assumed an aggressive modus state for political affairs, Wendy Sherman, operandi in dealing with US partners worldwide claimed that President Trump — after three and alienated many allies. He repealed US and a half years in office — has “developed no participation in the UN Human Rights Council, foreign policy at all” and that his approach to UNESCO, the 2015 Paris Climate Accord, the foreign affairs has been one “without Treaty on Open Skies, the Intermediate-Range objectives, without strategy, [and] without any Nuclear Forces Treaty, and the Joint indication that it protects and advances US Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA). Even in interests.” Is Trump’s foreign policy as the wake of the coronavirus pandemic, he pulled disastrous as Sherman describes, or is she the US out of the World Health Organization. saying so merely as a former Obama The president has pledged to draw an end to administration official with partisan interests? the “forever wars” the United States has been Stephen Zunes: This is a reasonably accurate involved in over the past couple of decades, and statement. Indeed, many Republicans feel the he has challenged the view that America should same way, believing Trump has wasted an be the world’s “policeman.” At the same time, his opportunity to further a more active foreign Middle East policy has been nothing short of policy advancing their more hegemonic and militaristic agenda by failing to fill a number of
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important State Department positions and failing deal. Similarly, he has tolerated a series of to articulate a clear policy. provocative actions by Russia while obsessively By all accounts, Trump is profoundly ignorant targeting China. of even the most basic facts relevant to foreign While hypocrisy and double standards is policy — the names and locations of foreign certainly not a new phenomenon in US foreign countries, modern diplomatic history and other policy, Trump’s actions have taken this to a new things which most reasonably well-educated extreme and have severely weakened US Americans know. His refusal to even read policy credibility in the international community. briefs his advisers have written up for him has made it impossible for him to develop any kind Ziabari: How has foreign policy historically of coherent foreign policy agenda. His view influenced the prospects of politicians winning toward foreign relations is largely transactional elections in the United States? Do you expect — what you can do for me will determine US President Trump’s divisive foreign policy policy toward your country — and therefore not decisions to derail his chances of being based on any overall vision of advancing US reelected in November? interests, much less international peace and Zunes: Foreign policy is even less of a factor security. in this year’s election than usual, so it is unlikely His efforts to push foreign governments to to determine the outcome. Ironically, as in 2016, pursue policies designed to help his reelection led Trump may run to the left of the Democratic to his impeachment earlier this year, but the nominee, so, despite Trump’s impetuous and Republican-controlled Senate refused to convict problematic foreign policy leadership, foreign him despite overwhelming evidence of illegal policy issues may actually weigh to his activities in this regard. advantage. During the 2016 campaign, Trump Ziabari: Some of the major foreign policy successfully, if somewhat disingenuously, was challenges of the Trump administration able to portray himself as a president who would emanated from the threats apparently posed be more cautious than his Democratic opponent to the United States by Iran, North Korea, regarding unpopular US military interventions China and Russia. How has Trump dealt with overseas. Despite having actually supported the these challenges? A June 2020 poll by Gallup invasion of Iraq, Trump was largely successful in found that only 41% of US adults approve of depicting himself as a war opponent and Hillary Trump’s performance in foreign policy. Is Clinton as a reckless militarist who might get the there a yardstick by which we can measure the United States in another round of endless wars in president’s success in his overseas agenda? the Middle East. An analysis of voting data Zunes: Virtually every administration, demonstrated that a significant number of voters regardless of party, has tended to exaggerate in northern swing states who supported the anti- overseas threats to varying degrees, and this is Iraq War Barack Obama in the 2008 and 2012 certainly true with Trump. There have been real elections switched to supporting Trump in the inconsistencies, however. For example, he has 2016 election over this very issue, thereby been far more tolerant toward North Korea, making possible his Electoral College majority. which has violated previous agreements and Already, the Trump campaign has begun pursued its nuclear weapons program, than he has targeting Joe Biden on this very issue. Biden been toward Iran, which had dramatically played a critical role as head of the Senate reduced its nuclear capabilities and was Foreign Relations Committee in pushing the war scrupulously honoring its nuclear agreement prior authorization through the Democratic-controlled to the US withdrawal from the Iran [nuclear] Senate, limiting hearings and stacking the witness
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list with war opponents. He has also repeatedly handle the crisis with Iran. Has the Trump lied about his support for the [Iraq] war — even administration’s maximum pressure campaign after inspectors had returned and confirmed the against the Islamic Republic yielded the absence of the weapons of mass destruction that results it was expected to achieve? he and President Bush falsely claimed Iraq still Zunes: Iran already made enormous possessed — giving the Trump campaign an compromises in agreeing to the JCPOA required opening to press this issue even more. it to destroy billions of dollars’ worth of nuclear Meanwhile, Biden has alienated many rank- facilities and material while neither the United and-file Democrats by pushing through a party States nor any of Iran’s nuclear-armed neighbors platform calling for tens of billions of dollars of — namely Israel, India and Pakistan — were unconditional taxpayer-funded arms transfers to required to reduce their arsenals or any other Israel while not even mentioning, much less aspects of their nuclear program. Iran agreed to condemning, the Israeli occupation and these unilateral concessions in return for a lifting settlements. It criticizes efforts by both the of the debilitating sanctions imposed by the United Nations and civil society campaigns to United Nations Security Council. end the occupation as somehow unfairly Despite full Iranian compliance with the delegitimizing Israel itself. This comes despite agreement, the United States not only re-imposed polls showing a sizable majority of Democrats its own sanctions, but it effectively forced foreign oppose the occupation and settlements and governments and countries to do the same at an support conditioning aid. enormous cost to the Iranian people. Hardline Neither candidate appears willing to reduce elements in the Iranian government, who opposed the United States’ bloated military budget or end the agreement on the grounds that the United arms transfers to dictatorships. However, Biden States could not be trusted to uphold its end of has promised to end support for Saudi Arabia’s the deal, feel they have been vindicated, and devastating war on Yemen and the longstanding moderate elements in the government are on the US backing of the Saudi regime, as well as defensive. reverse Trump’s escalation of the nuclear arms Some fear that the goal of the Trump race, both of which are popular positions. administration in tearing up the agreement was to Meanwhile, Biden has won over the vast encourage the Iranians to resume their nuclear majority of the foreign policy establishment, program, which is exactly what happened, in including quite a few Republicans, who have order to provoke a crisis that could give the been appalled by Trump’s treatment of traditional United States an excuse to go to war. allies and cozy relations with the Russian regime. The mistake the United States made in How much impact this will have on swing voters, Vietnam was seeing the leftist revolution against however, remains to be seen. the US-backed regime in Saigon in terms of its communist leadership rather than the strong Ziabari: Trump’s pullout from the Iran nationalist sentiments which propelled it. nuclear deal was one of his major and Washington could not understand why the more contentious foreign policy decisions. In a poll troops we sent and the more bombs we dropped conducted shortly after he announced the US actually strengthened the opposition. withdrawal, CNN found 63% of Americans Similarly, looking at the Iranian regime in believed the United States should stick with terms of its Islamist leadership misses the strong the accord, while only 29% favored nationalist sentiments in that country. While a abandoning it. Last year, a Pew Research growing number of Iranians oppose the Center poll revealed 56% of the respondents authoritarianism, conservatism and corruption of did not have faith in the president’s ability to the clerical and military leadership, a large
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majority appear to support the regime in its as dictators in Africa, Asia and, in previous years, confrontation with the United States. Iranians, Latin America as well. like the Vietnamese, are among the most What makes Trump different is that while nationalistic people in the world. Iran, formerly previous administrations at least pretended to known as Persia, has been a regional power on support improved human rights in these and off for the past 2,500 years and does not countries, and often rationalized for arms appreciate being treated in such a dismissive way. transfers and other close relations as a means of The more pressure on Iran, the greater the supposedly influencing them in that direction, resistance. Trump doesn’t even pretend to support political Concerns raised by the Trump administration freedom and has even praised their repressive about the Iranian regime — its repression, tactics. discrimination against women and religious There is little question that Trump himself has minorities, support for extremist groups, autocratic tendencies. The US Constitution interference in other countries, among other prevents him from becoming president for life points — are indeed valid. Yet each of these and other more overt autocratic measures, but he issues are also true, in fact, even more so, when it has certainly stretched his presidential authority comes to Saudi Arabia and other close US allies in a number of very disturbing ways. in the region. The problem the United States has with Iran, therefore, is not in regard to such Ziabari: Rescinding international agreements, negative behavior, but the fact that Iran is the reducing the commitments of the US most powerful country in the greater Middle East government abroad and embracing that rejects US hegemony. Iran was willing to unilateralism have been the epitome of compromise on its nuclear program, but it is not Trump’s foreign policy. This is believed to going to compromise when it comes to its have created rifts between the US and its sovereignty. traditional allies, particularly in the European Union and NATO. Some observers of US Ziabari: One of the critical points President foreign policy, however, say the gulf has been Trump’s opponents raise about him is his exaggerated and that the United States affinity for autocratic leaders and dictators. continues to enjoy robust relations with its He has — on different occasions — praised, global partners. What are your thoughts? congratulated or invited to the White House Zunes: Due to the United States’ economic President Rodrigo Duterte of the Philippines; and military power, most foreign governments President Abdel-Fattah al-Sisi of Egypt; have little choice but to work closely with President Vladimir Putin of Russia; the far- Washington on any number of issues. However, right leader of the French party National the United States is no longer looked at for Rally, Marine Le Pen; and the supreme leader leadership in ways it had been previously. This of North Korea, Kim Jong Un. Why is Trump decline has been going on for some time, attracted to these unpopular leaders? Can it accelerating during the George W. Bush be attributed to his desire for becoming a administration and pausing during the Obama president for life? administration, but it has now plummeted under Zunes: Most US presidents have supported Trump to a degree that it is not likely to recover. allied dictatorships. Under both Republican and The rejection of basic diplomatic protocols and Democratic administrations, US arms have other traditions of international relations flowed to autocratic regimes in Egypt, Saudi repeatedly exhibited by Trump has alienated even Arabia and other repressive Arab regimes as well some of the United States’ more conservative allies.
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While Joe Biden is certainly far more between Israel and the Palestinians. However, knowledgeable, experienced and diplomatic in this policy ignored the gross power asymmetry his approach to foreign policy than the incumbent between the Palestinians under occupation and president, his support for the Iraq invasion, the the Israeli occupiers, an imbalance compounded Israeli occupation and various allied dictatorships by the fact that as the chief mediator in has also made him suspect in the eyes of many negotiations, the US has also served as the erstwhile allies. And many allies have already primary military, economic and diplomatic reset their foreign policy priorities to make them supporter of the occupying power. less dependent on and less concerned about the By refusing to condition the billions of United States and its priorities. dollars’ worth of unconditional military aid to Israel on Israeli adherence to international law Ziabari: President Trump appears to have and human rights norms and blocking the United taken US-Israel relations to a new level, Nations Security Council from enforcing — or, in making himself known as the most pro-Israel some cases, even passing — resolutions calling US president after Harry Truman, as for Israeli compliance with its international legal suggested by several commentators and obligations, it gave Israel’s right-wing pundits, such as the renowned political analyst government no incentive to make the necessary Bill Schneider. Trump recognized Jerusalem compromises for peace. In many respects, as the capital of Israel, defunded UNRWA, Trump’s policies have simply codified what was closed down the Palestine Liberation already going on under previous administrations. Organization’s office in Washington and unveiled the “deal of the century,” a much- hyped peace plan for the Israeli-Palestinian *Kourosh Ziabari is an award-winning Iranian conflict that Palestinian factions rejected journalist. Stephen Zunes is a professor of outright on account of being overly biased in politics at the University of San Francisco. favor of Israel. Why has Trump prioritized pleasing the Israelis and advancing their territorial ambitions? The American Empire: Maintaining Zunes: The right-wing coalition governing Israel shares Trump’s anti-Arab racism, Hegemony Through Wars Islamophobia and contempt for human rights and international law, so this is not surprising. While Ankita Mukhopadhyay & Peter Kuznick Democratic administrations rationalized their November 3, 2020 support for Israel on the grounds that it was a liberal democracy — at least for its Jewish citizens — what draws Trump to Israel is the In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer right-wing, anti-democratic orientation of its talks to Peter Kuznick, director of the Nuclear current government. Studies Institute at American University. Though Trump has brought US support for Israeli violations of international legal norms to n January, the US assassinated Qassem unprecedented levels, in practice — at least for Soleimani, the head of Iran’s Islamic Palestinians living under occupation — it has IRevolutionary Guard Corps’ Quds force, in made little difference. For example, previous an airstrike on Iraqi soil. General Soleimani was administrations did not overtly recognize Israeli seen as the main pillar of the regional resistance settlements and annexation as Trump has, saying bulwark in Iran. He was revered by many such issues should be resolved in negotiations Iranians as a brave defender of the nation and a
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mastermind of asymmetrical warfare — the Clinton was terrible too in her own way. She was cornerstone of Iran’s security doctrine. very hostile to Russia and too hawkish for my His death sparked frenzy and unrest in the taste. But I believe she’s a reasonable, rational Middle Eastern country, further straining the US actor. Donald Trump is potentially quite reckless. and Iran’s delicate relationship. The assassination If we see what he’s done — with the recent of Soleimani revealed that the US was willing to confrontation with Iran, be it the tearing up of the go to any extent to prove its military might over Iran nuclear deal (the JCPOA), which Obama its self-declared enemies. negotiated with the help of several other Under President Donald Trump, the US has countries like Russia and China. used several measures for the last few years to Trump wasted little time in tearing that up. demonstrate American power over the world. He’s been pushing for a confrontation with Iran From Soleimani’s killing to the imposing of ever since. The danger is: Trump’s advisers tariffs on China to pulling out of the Paris climate didn’t agree on a lot of things, but what they agreement, the US has disrupted the world order agreed on is that they hate Iran. It was striking to and threatens to continue doing so. me that Jim Mattis, who had been demoted by In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer Obama because he was such a hawk when it talks to Peter Kuznick, director of the Nuclear came to Iran, was actually a restraining influence Studies Institute at American University in in the Trump administration. Rex Tillerson, the Washington, DC. Kuznick speaks about the most former secretary of state, said when he was fired important foreign policy areas for a US president, that he was sick and tired of trying to be stopped America’s raging desire to wage war, why the US on what [he] wanted to do against Iran. Tillerson has a fraught relationship with Iran, and how the referred to Trump as a fucking moron because of US can mend its relationship with North Korea. his hawkish policies. The transcript has been edited for clarity. This Let’s be optimistic that Trump is winning interview took place in early 2020. again. Whether he will lose depends on who the Democratic candidate is. My priorities are Ankita Mukhopadhyay: With the US elections number one, the New START [Strategic Arms looming on the horizon, what should be the Reduction] treaty. The New START treaty is set key areas of focus in foreign policy for the US to expire in February 2021. That would be a president? disaster. It will dismantle the world’s nuclear Peter Kuznick: The danger is that the new arms control architecture. It began with the US president of the US will be the old president. leaving the ABM [Anti-Ballistic Missile] treaty Trump will get reelected. However, Trump has in 2002, it accelerated with the US pulling out of not been as catastrophic when it comes to foreign the INF [Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces] policy as we feared he might be. He started off treaty last year. The only thing in place is the with a good idea, that the US and Russia should New START treaty that puts limits on the be friends. No one understands why he took that number of nuclear warheads and delivery systems position, given that he is mostly wrong on that both sides are allowed to maintain. everything else. Most of my Russian colleagues Trump intends to end this treaty. This is and friends were supporting Donald Trump evident from his phone conversation with Putin. during the 2016 election. I asked one member of The Russian leader said to Trump, we should the Russian Senate why did he and everyone else renew the New START treaty. Trump said hold support Trump. He said because Trump wants to on, he put down the phone and asked people in be friends with Russia. the room, what’s the New START treaty? He I told him he was being naive as what Trump didn’t even know what it was. He got on the says and does usually has no connection. Hillary phone and said: It’s not a good treaty, we don’t
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want to renew it. Putin has been pushing ever Mukhopadhyay: The US has been particularly since for the renewal. The US and Russia have stern with Iran’s nuclear policy, despite about 93% of the world’s nuclear weapons building its own nuclear arsenal. Trump has between them. In March 2018, Putin revealed already torn up the Joint Comprehensive Plan [Russia’s five most powerful] nuclear weapons, of Action (JCPOA). What will happen if Iran all of which can circumvent US missile defense. doesn’t rein in its nuclear program? China has only 290 nuclear weapons, and China Kuznick: It was absolute insanity on Trump’s has a no-first-use policy. China is not a threat to behalf to tear up the JCPOA deal. It was a good the world order like the US and Russia. Now deal and it would have constrained Iran’s nuclear Trump says, we should rip the START treaty up. program for 15 years. During that time, we could In February 2018, the US released its nuclear have done many things to bring Iran back into the posture review to expand the role of nuclear international community. They were supposed to weapons. The problem of using nuclear get economic benefits as a result of the JCPOA, weaponry goes back to the era of Barack Obama. but Trump imposed more sanctions. The Obama had implemented a trillion-dollar Europeans were furious because not only did modernization program to make nuclear weapons Trump impose sanctions on Iran, but Trump more deadly. Trump inherited this, but he’s threatened very harsh penalties on any country — added more insanity. including India — that continued to trade with Another area where Trump has been Iran, especially for oil. The Europeans eventually criminally reckless is global warming and climate tried to set up an alternative international banking change. The second thing the new US president system to trade with Iran outside of the US orbit. should do is convene a new international The US goes around sanctioning everybody. It’s conference on climate change. We have to do this out of control. The sanctions against Russia, as we can’t go along with the Paris Climate Europe, Iran, China — it’s crazy. People need to Accord — it’s far too minimal. We got to have a be sanctioning the US. When the US acts like a crash program to deal with this crisis. rogue power, the rest of the world needs to stop If the new president doesn’t want to keynote being cowards and hypocrites and employ the the conference, let’s get Greta Thunberg to do it, same standard the US applies on other countries. but we need to take it as seriously as she takes it. Countries need to be standing up to the US. There’s a lot more we can do beyond that. We The US can’t be a pariah as much as it wants have to deal with the militarization of the planet. because it’s so powerful. I don’t like this We have to deal with the fact that the richest cowardly behavior. In the US, TV commentators eight [people] of the world have more money say Russian interference in the 2016 election was than 3.8 billion people. There’s a crisis of epic an act of war. It’s such hypocritical behavior. I proportions. don’t approve of Russia’s interference in US As a US president, I want to see the US politics, but the US interferes in everybody’s military footprint drastically cut back. The US elections. They have been doing so since 1947 has 800 military bases in the world. Other when the CIA was founded. The commentators countries have maybe 29 overseas military bases condemn what’s happening to the US, but they combined, while China has one. Right now, we don’t see what the US is doing on a global scale. have Trump saying make America great again, On the Iran deal, we don’t get as much Putin saying make Russia great again, Xi Jinping criticism as necessary for tearing this up and saying make China great again, Narendra Modi creating havoc. The US in the early 2000s, under saying make India great again. We have got George W. Bush, was itching for a war with Iran nobody who thinks and speaks for the planet. and wanted to take down Iran’s nuclear facilities using nuclear weapons. When that got exposed,
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the joint chief of staff threatened to resign and majority, so he had to say that it was a deal to get they took that proposal off the table. it through with a simple majority. Let’s back up a little bit to understand Iran. I Once the Republicans got in there, one of the will go back to 1990. In 1990, Charles first things we wanted was to tear it up. Trump Krauthammer, a leading neoconservative thinker, knew nothing about the deal, and he is an idiot. in the Henry Jackson address, called it America’s It’s a crisis of America’s own making. Trump unipolar moment. He said that after the collapse said he will negotiate a better deal. He’s a of the Soviet empire, nobody can challenge the disaster when it comes to negotiating, as we see US — economically, geopolitically. The US must with North Korea. recognize that and assert itself everywhere. Then Iran responded, we got a couple of Krauthammer said this unipolar moment could incidents in the Gulf there, shooting down an last 30-40 years. In 1993, neoconservative American drone — things were heating up thinkers came up with defense planning guidance already. The reason the US wanted to take the so that no country should be allowed to emerge in Korea issue of the table is to focus on Iran. The any region to challenge the US globally. They killing of Soleimani on January 3, 2020, was very walked back when this was released in The New dangerous and very reckless. York Times. I am glad that some people acted with The neoconservatives cheered the American diplomatic aplomb and eased the crisis there invasion of Afghanistan in 2001. Krauthammer because many of us feared that we would go to revisited his article and said that he war [with Iran]. It was a disaster for US policy underestimated the strength of the US. It’s the and a disaster for the world. unipolar era. It’s going to last indefinitely. The What kind of principle do you establish that neoconservatives were ecstatic. Even before the you can go around killing anyone with our drones invasion of Iraq, on January 5, 2003, the NYT (shame on Obama for legitimizing that) and even headline was, “American empire, get used to it.” killing American citizens without due process. Then we invade Iraq. Now they are saying, well But to take out a leader of another country — the we have got to have regime change in a lot of second most powerful and respected person in places. Start with Syria, Libya, Somalia and Iran, a top general — was to force Iran to take Lebanon. military action. Fortunately, Iran didn’t take Iran was always on everyone’s hitlist. Iran did Trump’s bait. Iran had a measured, limited abandon its nuclear weapons program in 2003. response when they hit two American bases in But the US never abandoned its dream of retaliation. overthrowing Iran. At that time, had Iran retaliated in any other way, the US was set to strike. Iran has Mukhopadhyay: Is the dissatisfaction with capabilities throughout the region — they can hit Iran and the JCPOA to do with overthrowing Israel, they can hit American bases, they can use the government? Hezbollah, they have proxy bases in Syria. Kuznick: For that, we need to understand the Fortunately, they didn’t do that. However, like American mentality. The Americans accuse India and Pakistan, this can erupt at any point. Russia of interfering in the 2016 election. In fact, Iran is going to retaliate at some time. Iranians the Israelis interfered more than Russia in the were out on the street asking for military action 2016 election. Benjamin Netanyahu openly against the US after the death of Soleimani. campaigned for Trump, opposed the JCPOA and Americans need to understand that Iran is not addressed a joint session of Congress. Obama Iraq. We underestimate what a war with Iran knew that he couldn’t even get the JCPOA passed would mean. A war with Iran will be 10 times through Congress as a treaty, with a two-third costlier than the war in Iraq was militarily and in
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terms of human lives. Iran is a bigger country, this global empire through Boeing, BAE, General with 80 million people, much bigger capabilities Dynamics, Lockheed Martin and the American and a much more competent military. If someone defense contractors. thinks that Iran is going to be like the “cakewalk” For example, they make billions of dollars in in Iraq (which we are still not out of, 17 years weapon sales to India. India is a country that later), they are terribly mistaken. should not be spending billions of dollars in Iran has increasingly abrogated its own part of weapon sales when they have so many social the nuclear deal. It was a great deal. They needs. This is what [Dwight] Eisenhower warned shipped 97% of their nuclear material outside of about the military-industrial complex in 1961, Iran. They mothballed most of their centrifuges. that it has a disproportionate influence on They shut down the Iraq plutonium facility. Now, American policymaking. Every drone shot is they are increasingly bringing more centrifuges, money in someone’s pocket. raising the level to which they can enrich, and One of the things we were hearing in the US this is a crisis of Trump’s making. It’s off the Senate in the 1930s was to nationalize the headlines in the US recently — that’s not going defense sector. Why should people make money to last forever. There are people in this cabinet, in off killing? It makes no sense to me. The second this administration, who believe that a war would level is American hegemony and American be good for Trump’s reelection. global domination. Look at America’s wars. The They might miscalculate that this may help US wants to control the economy all over the them. This is why people were suspicious when world. Why are we involved in Central America Soleimani was assassinated. Why did Trump do and Afghanistan? It is estimated that Afghanistan this? Why did he do it now? Bush and Obama has mineral resources worth a trillion dollars. had looked into knocking off Soleimani and Look at the rare earths, the pipelines that go decided to not do it because the repercussions through that region. On one hand, it’s just naked would be horrendous. The speculation around economics and that’s always a factor. Trump is that he is trying to distract the people Trump wants Iran’s oil, Syria’s oil and Iraq’s from the other crisis. oil. He said that we should maintain our control over Syria’s oil. Which is why he shifted the Mukhopadhyay: Why is waging war so American troops from the western part of Syria to important in American foreign policy? How the eastern part of Syria — to the oil-rich zone. does this war-centric mentality affect the US’ That’s the way he feels. A lot of American relationship with other countries? policymakers feel the same way. Kuznick: The American empire is based on During the Iraq War, one of the most popular military presence everywhere. India would not signs was, “what is our oil doing under their define something that happens in Central sand?” We wanted the Iraqi oil, we thought we America as part of its national security concerns. deserved it. And this goes back to [Franklin D.] The US does. In January 2018, the US changed Roosevelt. In 1944, he said to Lord Halifax, the its national security strategy. Before that, the US British ambassador, that Saudi oil will belong to said that global terrorism was the main threat to the US, Iranian oil will belong to the British and American national security. In January 2018, the we will share Kuwaiti and Iraqi oil. So, when US announced that Russia and China posed the Mohammad Mosaddegh nationalizes the oil greatest threat to national security. industry in Iran, the British freak out and The US under Trump sees the world as a zero- Americans freak out. sum game. Anything that Russia or China gains The problems with Iran run back to 1953, anywhere is a loss to the US, in terms of trade, when the Central Intelligence Agency ran a coup geopolitics or military. The US wants to maintain to overthrow Mosaddegh. Why? Because the
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Anglo-Iranian oil company, which had 100% of popular American president and replace him with Iranian oil, was giving the Iranians 16 cents on a brutal dictator? The Iranians have got legitimate the dollar. The British were keeping 84 cents on grievances against the US, not the other way the dollar. The Iranians were very impoverished around, obviously. as a result. Saudi Aramco in Saudi Arabia Americans don’t know history. Which is why negotiated a new deal and they got 50 cents on we have a low attention span. Talk about the dollar. That infuriated the Iranians even America and the endless wars. Start with the two further. They did what the British had done a few big ones. Americans don’t know anything about years earlier — they nationalized the oil industry. the Korean War. It’s called the forgotten war in The British were outraged and decided they had the US. Americans don’t know that millions of to overthrow Mosaddegh. people died in that war. The Americans bombed Mosaddegh was immensely popular. He was the crap out of both Koreas. In 1951, the British featured as Time magazine’s man of the year in annual military yearbook said that because of 1951. The US ambassador in Tehran wrote back America’s bombing, South Korea doesn’t exist as to Washington that Mosaddegh had the support a country anymore. of 95 to 98% of the Iranian people. He was a hero We burned down almost all cities in South throughout the Middle East for standing up to the Korea and North Korea — and people were imperialists. [Harry] Truman hesitated, but in living in caves. It was horrific what the US did 1953, when Eisenhower took office, he ran there. It was four times the number of bombs Operation Ajax and overthrew Mosaddegh. They dropped in Japan and the Pacific in World War II. had terrorist gangs, the CIA bought out the That was a nightmare for the Koreans and they military leaders — it was outrageous — and then remember it. The Koreans have a very different they brought the shah. historical memory. The North Koreans have The shah ruled for another 25 years through a drilled the war into their heads. There are brutal dictatorship. He used SAVAK, the Iranian billboards, museums about what the US did intelligence agency, in order to impose during the Korean War. It is a very different domination in Iran, and then in 1979, the Iranians historical memory as compared to the Americans. finally overthrew the shah and imposed their The Americans have no historical memory. religious-nationalist regime under [Ruhollah] Let me give you another example. The Khomeini. The people of Iran will obviously American and Russian understanding of World retaliate against the CIA. Especially after the US War II is completely different. For the US, World allowed the shah into the US for medical War II starts with Pearl Harbor. Then there’s a treatment. hiatus and we get involved a little in North [Jimmy] Carter had proposed that the Iranians Africa. should develop their own nuclear power industry. But the real war for the Americans begins on The US was giving them nuclear fuel and wanted June 6, 1944, with D-Day and the invasion of to build 12 nuclear reactors in Iran. And then we Normandy. The Americans bravely take the say it’s outrageous, why do they need nuclear beaches, which we did. The Americans march to power when they have all this oil? We pushed Berlin, defeat the Germans, win the war in them to do that. Europe and the Americans are the heroes of The history of US-Iranian relations goes back World War II. further than 1979. If you look at the American The Russian narrative is quite different. The media, when all this was happening, some people war there begins with the German invasion [of who were sensible traced it back to 1979. Any the Soviet Union] on June 22, 1941, when they Iranian would trace it back to 1953. How would looked at the US for economic support for war the Americans feel if Iran came here to depose a material, which the US promised but couldn’t
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deliver. The US couldn’t deliver it because we Kuznick: Laos, Cambodia — the whole thought that Europe is built on military industries region was a disaster. The Vietnam War and partly because of sabotage. memorial in Washington has got the names of We promised them the second front in late 58,280 Americans who died in the Vietnam War. May 1942, but we didn’t open it up till 1944. The The tragedy of Vietnam is that 58,280 Americans Russians know who won the war in Europe. died. What they should have on that memorial is The Germans lost 1 million on the western the name of 3.8 million Vietnamese, along with front, 6 million on the eastern front. I once did an millions of Cambodians and Laotians, British, anonymous survey with college students and I Australians, South Koreans — everyone who asked them: How many Americans died in World died. Right now, the wall is 492-feet long. If they War II? The median answer I got was 90,000. include the names of everyone who died, the wall OK, so they were just 300,000 off. I asked them: would be eight-miles long. How many Soviets died in WW2? The median The scary thing is that in a poll, 15-20% of answer was 100,000. Which means they were students said that the Vietnam War was necessary only 27 million off. to fight. These are 18 to 29-year-old people who Which means these kids know nothing about love Bernie Sanders. These are the ones who are World War II, they can’t understand what the opposed to war generally, but they don’t know Cold War was about, they can’t understand history. Ukraine now. That’s what Americans suffer from — a complete lack of understanding of history. In Mukhopadhyay: Why do people have such 2007, the national report card found that contradictory views about war in the US? American high school seniors performed the Kuznick: Part of the reason you have these worst in US history. Only 12% of high school wars is: one, they are profitable; two, they allow seniors were found to be proficient in US history. the US to maintain hegemony; three, Americans Not outstanding, just proficient. are historically ignorant; four, they happen over What we found out from that survey is that there. Lindsey Graham had once said that if even that number is bogus because only 2% could there’s war, they are dying over there, not here. identify what the Brown vs. Board of Education Americans don’t get touched by these wars. Supreme Court case was about, even though it The wars are fought by a very small tiny was obvious from the way the question was fraction of the population of professional worded. It’s obvious that Americans are soldiers, who are not from the middle classes. historically ignoramuses. That’s why Oliver They come from mostly poor, rural backgrounds. Stone and I did the “Untold History” project to They are mostly young people who don’t have educate people about their own history. good prospects in life. They are not my college Americans know nothing about the Korean students, they are not people I know — that’s the War, they don’t even remember Vietnam case for most of the middle class in the US. anymore. When Robert McNamara, the former It’s always another war, in another place, with US secretary of defense, came into my class, he very few American casualties. A lot of Afghans told the students that he now accepts the fact that die, a lot of Iraqis die. These wars allow the US 3.8 million Vietnamese died in the war. But to maintain its hegemony and there’s a lot of common Americans have no understanding of profit. We have got 800 bases around the world. that. In 2009, Chalmers Johnson called it the empire of bases. We justify that in part by finding enemies. Mukhopadhyay: Not just Vietnam, even Laos Alexei Arbatov, the Russian-Soviet strategist, and Cambodia saw a heavy death toll in the once said the Soviet Union did the worst possible Vietnam war, right?
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thing to the US by collapsing because they left isn’t getting any better. The Indian army is twice them with no enemy. as big and powerful as the Pakistani army. Once the Soviet Union collapsed, what did we Indians would overrun the Pakistani army in the do? We immediately intervened in Panama, event of a war. Will Pakistan sit back and say, overthrew the government there, we militarily OK, you’re stronger and we surrender? No, they intervened in Kuwait and Iraq. There is no can use nuclear weapons. India will retaliate. We enemy. We defined new enemies and we created don’t know. There’s a real risk that it can them after the Soviet Union collapsed. There was escalate. a call to overthrow the government of Saddam Latest studies show that a limited nuclear war Hussein in the 1990s, that was the goal. There between India and Pakistan in which 100 was nothing to do with the nonsense about Hiroshima-size nuclear weapons were used weapons of mass destruction which many people would create a nuclear winter, cities would burn, later exposed as a lie before the US invaded. This it would send 5 million tons of carbon and soot was just part of the US’ global agenda. The US into the stratosphere. doesn’t win these wars. Within two weeks, it would encircle the globe, The US has not won a war since 1983 when destroy global agriculture, temperatures on Earth the US invaded Grenada, which was Operation would plummet to freezing; this would last for 10 Urgent Fury. We were able to defeat a couple of years and that alone could cause up to 2 billion Cuban construction workers, after which deaths. We [the US] have 4,000 nuclear weapons [Ronald] Reagan said, America is proud and in the world, 80 times as powerful as the standing on its feet again. We can destroy things, Hiroshima bomb. We are risking the future of our we blow them up, but we don't win. We have planet. We are dealing with that and the insanity been fighting, not winning, in Afghanistan for of global warming. We have an existential crisis almost 20 years. Iraq is finally wanting to throw which requires real leadership right now. It’s too the US out. We have a military meant for dangerous a world. destroying things, for killing people, for blowing things up, but not for creating what is really Mukhopadhyay: You criticized Trump’s needed. policy on North Korea. What should the president have done instead, and what can be Mukhopadhyay: A parallel I can draw is that done to diffuse the tension in the Korean both the US and India have not learned from Peninsula? history. Kuznick: North Korea is a difficult problem Kuznick: India has such a rich history. How that requires diplomacy, not military action. I Gandhi and [Jawaharlal] Nehru led the global take it back to the 1994 deal that [Bill] Clinton fight against the Cold War. They led the fight had negotiated with North Korea. In 1994 and against the nuclear arms race. It was Nehru who 2002, North Korea produced no plutonium and said that American leaders are self-centered they abided by the nuclear deal. There was some lunatics who will blow anybody up who gets in suspicion about their nuclear program, but it their way. Do we see Modi standing up or wasn’t proven or confirmed. They deny it. That welcoming world peace in any way? War can deal was very effective. happen anytime. The George W. Bush administration blew that Especially with these extreme nationalists in up. Bush announced the “axis of evil” — Iran, India and with the Pakistani military and Iraq and North Korea. Rather than deal with intelligence community. Fortunately, both sides North Korea diplomatically, he put it in decided to hit each other in a way that wasn’t crosshairs. North Korea was very nervous about going to hurt last year, but the issue in Kashmir the US overthrow of their government.
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John Bolton, who is hated by North Koreans, From the very beginning, when Trump is said that the accusations against North Korea’s talking about denuclearization, it’s absurd and the nuclear arsenal gave him the leverage to destroy wrong thing to demand from North Korea. The the nuclear deal in 2002. He was happy that it first thing we should do is foster an atmosphere happened. The North Koreans call Bolton human of trust. How do we do that? scum and a bloodsucker — and rightly so. The Korean War has never ended. Instead of Then, in 2006, North Korea tested their first having a peace treaty at the end of the war, they nuclear weapon. They have had six since then. signed an armistice. That war is still going on. Last year, they tested their nuclear bomb, which One thing the North Koreans desperately want is was 17 times more destructive than the bomb a peace treaty to end that war. The second thing thrown on Hiroshima. The North Koreans said it they want is for the US to stop their military wasn’t a fusion bomb but a fission bomb, a exercises with South Korea. hydrogen bomb — it just blew up an entire The US is overmilitarized. We don’t need mountain. Then they tested an inter-continental 28,500 troops on the Korean Peninsula — we ballistic missile that seemed like it could hit the don’t need all the military exercises that we do. US. That gave Trump the excuse to give the The third thing they need is sanctions relief. The threat to start fire and fury. US is heavily sanctioning North Korea. Even the In 2017, it did seem like we were going to UN. nuclear war and we seemed desperate to want to After the North Korea tests, China and Russia stop that. I was considering going to go to North also supported the sanctions against North Korea. Korea to interview Kim Jong Un and walk this Everybody thinks that North Korea’s nuclear back a little bit. We didn’t have to, as Trump program is dangerous and that we should have a decided to take a different tack. But I approved denuclearized Korean Peninsula. I obviously that Trump wanted to talk. I was glad that they support that. But the North Koreans are not going met in Singapore. However, Trump has no to do that — until they are integrated in the diplomatic skills. That’s another powder cake global system and they have a measure of trust ready to blow. that they are not under attack. North Korea has enormous military Would I like to see a different government in capabilities and missiles poised to strike Seoul, a North Korea? Yes, I would. Do I want to see city of 25 million people, 35 miles from their more freedom in North Korea? Yes, absolutely. border. The US is running these war games with The Korean people will have to do that. My decapitation drills to overthrow the government friends in the South Korean embassy tell me the in North Korea — which is insane. The US has gross national standard of living, per capita gross 28,500 troops stationed in South Korea. I was domestic product in South Korea is 42 times as upset with Trump for creating a crisis when it high as it is in North Korea. Vladimir Putin once didn’t have to exist. said the North Koreans would rather eat grass North Korea isn’t going to give up its nuclear than give up their nuclear program. Putin is right. arsenal. The North Koreans know that the only It’s still a dangerous situation. We have to ease thing standing between them and being the sanctions. Nothing else has worked. The US overthrown by the US is their nuclear weapons. program of maximum pressure has not worked. When the US invaded Iraq, North Korea’s main When something doesn’t work, you don’t double newspaper said that Saddam made one big down on it, you try a different direction. mistake: not having weapons of mass destruction. You lift the sanctions on North Korea, say for It was clear that North Koreans understood that six months, and see how they respond. Stephen and didn’t want to give up their weapons. Biegun, who is the US negotiator, was getting nowhere with the negotiations. The North
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Koreans don’t trust him and they don’t trust the The Rapper Breaking Down Borders US. Trump says absurd things like Kim Jong Un With Dreams writes me love letters, we are in love. Trump doesn’t know what the term love means, he isn’t Sophia Akram & Potent Whisper capable of love or empathy. But he wants to be December 3, 2020 flattered.
The meeting in Hanoi is pointless. To get North Koreans to reciprocate, you do need the In this guest edition of The Interview, Sophia pressure from Russia and they do need assurances that the US won’t do a regime change Akram talks to British rapper and spoken- word artist, Potent Whisper. there. At least UN sanctions need to be lifted so that North Korea’s economy responds. There isn’t mass starvation there, but they are under ritish rapper and spoken-word artist Potent Whisper is known for his socially economic hardship and duress. It doesn’t make sense to me that a country B conscious rhyming guides that have broken down the world’s problems into three-to- where people barely spend time eating spend[s] so much money on weapons of mass destruction. five-minute explainers. Over the last few years, It’s the insanity of our planet. Someone coming his projects have included a lauded book, “The Rhyming Guide to Grenfell Britain,” which was from another planet, looking at the Earth would say it’s insane to have a world where the richest given a mention in the chambers of the UK eight [people] have more money than the poorest Parliament. 3.8 billion. It’s insane to have a world that spends His take on the refugee crisis has taken a such a vast amount of resources on perfecting the different spin, however, through a fictional narrative of a couple from Sudan, torn apart by means of killing. conflict and who reunite in the dream world. It’s
an audiobook called “Lucid Lovers,” which
collaborates with producers ToneO and Essence, *Ankita Mukopadhyay is a journalist based in starring actors Mustafa Khogali and Hind New Delhi. She holds a postgraduate degree from Swareldahab, who were involved with the the London School of Economics. Peter Sudanese uprising and have some experience of Kuznick is a professor of history and the navigating the British asylum system. Director of the Nuclear Studies Institute at What follows is the gripping, outlandish and American University. Along with filmmaker also very real-to-life tale of Sameh and Ahlam. Oliver Stone, he coauthored the book and Facing barriers in the form of the European and documentary film series, “The Untold History of UK immigration systems, they defy powers the United States.” keeping them apart using the practice of lucid
dreaming — having dreams where the dreamer is aware they are in a dream and even gaining control over some of the dream’s elements. Potent explains the concept as part of the book using his signature rhyming-guide format, the “The Rhyming Guide to Lucid Dreaming,” and in which he offers another perspective on dreams: “They won’t let us dream, / They want us living their illusion. / That’s why dreaming is a radical act. / Dreaming is resistance.”
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It’s a fascinating take on the politics of and the mainstream media. This is not only a lie freedom of movement through the metaphysical that causes the suffering of immigrants and and genre of romance, set against hip hop and asylum seekers — which is more than enough poetry. And the project has led Potent to do reason to write this book — but it is also a lie that workshops on lucid dreaming and the freedom of simultaneously enables the suffering of the movement with young marginalized people. average “English” person who was born in this Without a doubt, the project is timely. As the country. peak summer period for migration has seen If you were to ask a random Brit why their record numbers of people crossing the English grandmother couldn’t get the operation she Channel on flimsy boats, hostile anti-asylum desperately needed, they may well point to rhetoric has stepped up. immigrants. If you were to ask a young family In this guest edition of The Interview, Sophia why they can’t get a council house, they wouldn’t Akram talks to Potent Whisper about the complain about the demolition of or lack of inspiration and the concepts behind “Lucid provision for social housing — they would point Lovers.” to immigrants. The average British person who is struggling Sophia Akram: A lot is going on in the final to make ends meet does not feel angry with a output: storytelling, poetry, music, politics, government that needlessly chose to implement metaphysics intertwined with love and human- austerity measures. Instead, they would point to interest genres. What made you feel this was the vulnerable and desperate asylum seeker who the best way of telling a story that is came to this country in the simple hope of finding fundamentally a lesson on migration? safety. Potent Whisper: Somebody will tell you they I am not exactly the smartest guy in the world, oppose freedom of movement until they fall in but it doesn’t take a genius to see that the love with somebody from another country and scapegoating of immigrants (and Muslims) is one become separated by borders. of the major enablers of the transferral of public It seems to me that people only care about stories wealth into private hands, via government, in this that reflect or benefit their own lives in some country and around the world. To quote a passage way. By introducing leading themes of love and from “Lucid Lovers,” when Ahlam asks Samer to dreams, I am speaking to experiences that people explain Brexit: share all around the world. “The British government decided to give Hopefully, by using this common ground, I bankers hundreds of billions of pounds after the have, in some way, provided a non-politicized financial crisis in 2008, crippling the British audience with the space to venture beyond their people through austerity measures. They had ten own lived experiences; to recognize their shared years of misery and the country saw a genocide humanity with the characters and begin to care of the poor but the government managed to about them beyond the book. redirect their anger away from the powerful people who are consciously killing them and Akram: A passion and compassion for the instead towards immigrants and Muslims. This subject of freedom of movement and the plight was coupled with the notion that leaving the of asylum seekers come through. What European Union aka ‘Brexit’ would stop galvanized you on the issue? immigrants from entering the country and thus Potent Whisper: The idea that immigrants improve living conditions in the UK. The truth, and asylum seekers are problematic is one that however, is that the effects of Brexit will worsen has been relentlessly smashed into the their real situation. But when the leader of the consciousness of the general public by politicians opposition tried to warn everybody, he was
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portrayed as a racist and terrorist sympathizer and source of their work. Believe it or not, I actually so the British public voted for an actual racist wrote parts of the audiobook whilst I was in a terrorist and now they’re all screwed.” lucid state. My “The Rhyming Guide to Lucid Dreaming,” which features in the audiobook, Akram: Lucid dreaming sounds wild. Is it explores the benefits of lucid dreaming in more real, and how did you come to know about it? depth. Potent Whisper: Lucid dreaming is 100% In terms of dream sharing: It is important for real, scientifically proven and well established as the audience to understand that the character’s a practice. I was introduced to it by my brother ability to share a dream and inhabit the same after our grandmother passed away last year, and dream space is very different to lucid dreaming. it gave me meaningful hope that we might exist Unlike lucid dreaming, sharing a dream is not beyond our bodies after we die. After all, if we widely reported or scientifically recognized as can exist without our bodies in dreams, perhaps being possible in real life. Though that doesn’t we can exist without our bodies after they mean it hasn’t been or can’t be done! decompose.
Akram: I sometimes know when I’m dreaming *Sophia Akram is a journalist and researcher — is that the same thing? You also touch on specializing in human rights and forced dream sharing — is that possible? How would migration, particularly across Asia. Potent someone find out more about lucid dreaming Whisper is a British rapper and spoken-word and what are its benefits? artist. Potent Whisper: To become lucid means that you are aware that you are in a dream. With some practice, you can then learn to control or direct Climate Change Will Impact the elements of your dream, which not only allows you to do things that are impossible when awake Human Rights of Millions — like flying — but can enrich your life and improve your wellbeing in the waking world too. Kourosh Ziabari & Ashok Swain For example, lucid dreaming can be used to December 15, 2020 practice and develop skills whilst we are asleep: If you are learning to play the piano, you can use lucid dreaming to practice playing and, when you In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer wake up, you will have improved accordingly. talks to professor Ashok Swain, UNESCO Lucid dreaming can also be used to help us Chair of International Water Cooperation at process emotional traumas, heal our bodies, Uppsala University in Sweden. consolidate and memorize new information, and so much more. On a more spiritual level, many hile the international community’s people have reported that they use lucid dreaming attention is consumed by the COVID- to communicate with ancestors or seek guidance W19 pandemic and a myriad of crisis, from their spirit guide. from the wars in Syria and Yemen to the Middle Certainly, I have found that when I face a East peace process, Brexit and a severe global difficult challenge in life, a solution can often economic downturn, climate change continues to present itself to me whilst contemplating the wreak havoc on societies around the world, problem in a lucid dream. The practice also has putting into question the very survival of future huge creative potential with many iconic artists generations. and inventors pointing to the dream world as the
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Greenhouse gases produced as a result of it possible to make sure they are living up to anthropogenic activity such as the burning of those commitments? fossil fuels and industrial processes are being Ashok Swain: Both climate change and emitted at rates higher than at any point in the COVID-19 are global crises and [are] past 800,000 years. The resulting greenhouse interconnected. Degrading ecosystems, effect is destabilizing the planet’s climate in unsustainable lifestyles and declining natural hazardous ways. Extreme weather events are now resources have led to a pandemic like COVID-19. more frequent and violent than ever. Heatwaves, Thus, the world should not forget the threats of droughts, blizzards, hail storms and floods are climate change while confronting the pandemic. occurring with greater intensity, exacerbating Adding to these two serious crises, human rights poverty and forced migration. 2019 was the are increasingly under threat, and civil and hottest year on record, with nearly 400 political rights of people are growingly unprecedented instances of high temperatures compromised in a world that is witnessing a reported in the northern hemisphere last summer democratic decline. Climate change has alone. multiplied the human rights crisis in a more Aside from the loss of biodiversity, the unequal and undemocratic world by causing disappearance of small island nations and the threats to human health and survival, food and proliferation of new diseases, climate change is water shortages, and weather-related disasters currently responsible for the death of 150,000 resulting in death and destruction of property. A people annually, and will expectedly produce healthy and robust environment is fundamental to 250,000 fatalities per year between 2030 and the enjoyment of human rights. 2050. This is a wake-up call for societies, lured The world has been committed for 72 years to into complacency by technological advances, that the observation and promotion of human rights our lifestyle and consumption patterns are not and fundamental freedoms, and these principles sustainable. have been at the heart of international In this edition of The Interview, Fair Observer agreements. talks to professor Ashok Swain, UNESCO chair Unfortunately, there is a huge gap that exists of International Water Cooperation at Sweden’s between the international commitments on Uppsala University, about the human rights human rights and climate change, and the impacts of climate change, the ensuing conflicts national policies adopted by the countries. over resources, and the interplay between global Climate change and policy responses to meet its warming and poverty. challenges will have a significant impact on the human rights of millions of people. Kourosh Ziabari: According to the Office of The world is also witnessing the climate the United Nations High Commissioner for justice movement in a big way. Only Human Rights, nations “have an affirmative comprehensive and collaborative actions by the obligation to take effective measures” to states in line with protecting human rights will mitigate the impacts of climate change on make it possible for the planet to meet these human rights. With political, economic and unprecedented challenges. Countries must security concerns that are consuming commit to ambitious climate mitigation targets to resources, coupled with the outbreak of the keep the global average temperature increase coronavirus pandemic, do you think enough is within a manageable limit. Countries providing being done to address climate change and its climate mitigation assistance and those receiving human rights implications? If states have an the support must commit to protecting human “obligation” to combat climate change, how is rights.
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They must incorporate human rights norms agricultural economies as they already face into their domestic legal frameworks. While serious shortages of freshwater supply and arable countries need to take important steps toward land. High concentrations of carbon dioxide in fulfilling their obligations at home, they need to the atmosphere reduces the number of nutrients work cooperatively with other countries to such as zinc and iron in rice and wheat, and bring combat climate change and ensure the protection harmful effects on people in the countries whose of the human rights of people across the world. diets are highly dependent on these crops. The adverse effects of climate change on food Ziabari: As reported by the UN Food and security, health and economic wellbeing in the Agriculture Organization, more than 60% of agriculture-dependent countries are undermining the world’s population depends on agriculture their ability to achieve their sustainable for survival, and 12% of the total available development goals in a big way. lands are used for cultivating crops. In what ways does climate change impinge on the Ziabari: Small size, remoteness, insularity and development of economies that are centered susceptibility to natural disasters are some of around agriculture? the challenges faced by island nations. Last Swain: Though the impact of climate change year, the Maldives’ environment minister is very comprehensive, its effects on the warned that for small island nations, climate agriculture sector are easy to notice. Changing change is not only a threat, but its impacts are rainfall patterns and rising average temperatures already being felt. What is at stake for the due to climate change affect agriculture and those island nations as a result of global warming who are dependent on it in a very big way. and extreme weather conditions? Do you agree Floods, droughts, new pests and weed problems that for these regions, climate change poses an add more to their woes. Climate change brings existential threat? food insecurity through its impacts on all aspects Swain: If the present trend of greenhouse gas of global, regional, national and local food emission continues, the UN climate science panel production and distribution systems. It severely warns against the possibility of sea-level rise up affects the people who are already poor and to 1.1 meters by 2100. The rise of the seawater vulnerable, and dependent on an agriculture- level to this magnitude will not only inundate based economy, but the risk and vulnerability are large areas in the highly populated low-lying gradually going to shift to other economies. countries but also can potentially submerge many However, while most tropical, arid and semi- small island states in the Pacific and Indian arid regions are likely to experience further oceans. agricultural production losses due to rising Way back in 1987, the then-president of the temperatures, food production in the temperate Maldives, Maumoon Abdool Gayoom, made an developed part of the world is expected to benefit emotional appeal at the UN General Assembly in the short term from a warmer climate and that a sea-level rise of only one meter would longer growing seasons. threaten the life and survival of all his With climate change, increasing natural countrymen. More than three decades have disasters, recurring droughts, salinity intrusion passed, and the threat of several small island into water systems and massive floods are countries disappearing from the global map invariably affecting agricultural production and altogether looks more real than ever before. resulting in food shortages in developing While they are not underwater yet, these small countries. Increasing agricultural production for a island countries are already facing the impact of growing population while facing climate change climate change in various ways. In these has become a major challenge for these countries, most human settlement and economic
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activity take place in coastal areas. Climate Several disagreements had kept the countries of change-induced coastal erosion has already the world away from a global treaty. The primary brought significant changes in their human contentions had been over how much and how settlement patterns and socioeconomic fast countries were going to reduce their conditions. greenhouse gas emissions and, upon reaching an Coral reefs play a big role in the wellbeing of agreement, who would monitor it. However, to the small island countries by supplying sediments address global climate change, 194 countries of to island shores and restraining the impact of the world have finally come to an agreement at waves. Unprecedented coral bleaching due to the Paris Climate Conference on December 12, increased water temperature and carbon dioxide 2015. [To date, all of the world’s 197 nations concentration are adversely affecting the reef have signed the accords, with the US set to rejoin systems, which is critical for these small the agreement after the Biden administration countries. Changing rainfall patterns, decreasing assumes office next year. — Fair Observer] In precipitation and increasing temperatures have Paris, industrialized countries also promised to also presented critical challenges for the mobilize $100 billion to support carbon emission freshwater supply on these islands and to their cuts and climate adaptation. food security. The Paris Agreement signals the turning point Frequent climate change-induced natural for the world on the path to a low-carbon disasters like hurricanes and floods are also economy — not only to cut the carbon emission bringing devastation to their economy and but also to provide financial and technological infrastructure. And also, these severe weather- support to poor developing countries for climate related events affecting their key tourism sectors. mitigation. However, the withdrawal of the USA Climate change will affect every country in the from the Paris Agreement has been a serious world, but small island nations are most setback, but, hopefully, it will return to it soon vulnerable to its impacts. after the change of administration. Unlike the Kyoto Protocol, in which only rich Ziabari: Is it accurate to say that climate industrialized nations had climate mitigation change effects are disproportionately targets, the Paris Agreement includes every burdening the developing and low-income country. Though the ratifying countries to the countries, and that nations in Africa, Latin Paris Agreement enjoy independence on how to America and Southeast Asia are making up lower their carbon emissions, it is binding on for the shortcomings of the developed, them to report their progress. It is true that industrialized world in reducing their developing and low-income countries are asked greenhouse gas emissions to achieve the goals to do their part to mitigate climate change even if set by the Paris Agreement? they had no role in contributing to climate Swain: Despite disagreement and debates, change. However, the global fund [created] by science is now unequivocal on the reality of rich industrialized countries is going to somewhat climate change. Human activities contributing to address this injustice by providing financial greenhouse gases are recognized as its primary support to the most vulnerable countries and also cause. It is a serious irony that people and helping them with clean environment countries that suffer most from climate change technologies for climate change mitigation. have done the least to cause it. The 52 poorest countries in the world contribute less than 1% of Ziabari: Water stress levels are high in parts global carbon emissions. of northern Africa, Iraq, Syria, Iran and the The poor and the powerless have very little Indian subcontinent. How can the lengthy say in the actual climate negotiation process. periods of drought and variability of water
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supply in these regions lead to conflicts and countries to have more flexible, hands-on violent uprisings? Can we think of water as a politically smart management of their water determining factor in the political stability of resources. nations in the 21st century? Swain: The world is already experiencing a Ziabari: Walk us through the interplay serious global water crisis. More than 40% of the between climate change and poverty. Does the global population is suffering from water scarcity current pattern of the Earth getting warmer and, by 2050, an additional 2.3 billion people and extreme weather episodes unfurling more from Asia, Africa and the Middle East are frequently have the potential to tip more expected to live in serious water stress. Climate people into hunger, unemployment and change is expected to seriously aggravate the poverty? What do scientific forecasts say? water scarcity problem in these regions. Swain: With sea-level rise, the world is also Moreover, the increase of global surface expected to witness serious storm surges in temperature due to the greenhouse effect is regular intervals as tropical cyclones will expected to lead to more floods and droughts due combine with higher sea levels. This is likely to to more intense, heavy precipitation. Not only enhance the risk of coastal high flooding, floods and droughts are going to be frequent in particularly in the tropics. Climate change also the future, but even recent studies have also threatens to change the regular rainfall patterns, confirmed that climate change is already which can potentially lead to further intensive contributing to more intense precipitation flooding, drought and soil erosion in tropical and extremes and the risk of floods. arid regions of the world. Food production is As climate change brings changes to water going to be further affected due to extreme supply and demand patterns, the existing weather, unpredictable seasonal changes and arrangement of sharing water resources between wildfires. The Fourth National Climate and within countries in arid and semi-arid regions Assessment Report of the US Global Change are likely to be more and more conflictual. There Research Program in 2018 warns that heatwaves, is no doubt that the projected impacts of global drought, wildfire and storms will increasingly climate change on freshwater may be huge and disrupt agricultural productivity, bringing serious dramatic, but they may not be at the same food insecurity and loss of farming jobs. intensity and follow a similar periodic pattern in Different countries and societies are each region. responding to and will cope with climate change- Climate change is also likely to cause extreme induced food insecurity and economic decline weather events, changing sea levels or melting differently. Existing cultural norms and social glaciers that can generate serious threats to practices will play an important role in existing freshwater management infrastructure. It formulating their coping mechanisms. Some is easy to foresee that climate change will force countries and societies are better at planning and comprehensive adjustments in the ongoing water implementing adaptation strategies to meet the management mechanisms as they need to have hunger and unemployment challenges posed by the flexibility to adjust to the uncertainties. climate change. The effectiveness and coping The emerging unprecedented situation due to abilities of existing institutions of the countries changes in climatic patterns requires countries also play a significant role. and regions to cooperate and act collectively. No doubt that the adverse impact of climate There is no doubt that climate change poses change will be more severe on the people who extreme challenges to water sharing, and it has all are living in the poor and developing economies. the potential to create political instability and Climate change will not only force more people violent conflicts. Thus, climate change requires back to poverty, but it can increase the possibility
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of more violent conflicts, particularly in societies would return home. So, there is a need for the and countries affected by poor governance, weak definitional fiat of “refugee” to be expanded to institutions and low social capital. address the increasing challenge of climate- forced population displacement and possible Ziabari: Since 2008, nearly 24 million people international migration. have been displaced annually on account of catastrophic weather events. One of the concerns scholars raise about these climate *Kourosh Ziabari is an award-winning Iranian refugees is that they lack formal recognition, journalist. Ashok Swain is a professor of peace definition and protection under international and conflict research, UNESCO chair of law. What is the most viable way to help International Water Cooperation, and the director them? of Research School of International Water Swain: Global warming leads to sea-level rise Cooperation at Uppsala University, Sweden. and that is taking away the living space and source of livelihood of millions of people. There are many estimates regarding the size of the climate-induced population migration the world is going to witness in the future. For the last two, three decades, several forecasts have been made, but there are no reliable estimates of climate change forced migration as the future forecasts vary from 25 million to 1 billion by 2050. Not only there is a lack of any agreement over the numbers on climate migration, there is also no clarity on how many of them will move beyond their national borders. But there is no doubt that climate change will displace a large number of people and will force them to move to other countries in search of survival. However, climate or environment-forced migration is not included in the definition of a refugee as established under international law, which are the most widely used instruments providing the basis for granting asylum to persons in need of protection. International refugee agencies in the past have not been able to save the lives of many environmentally displaced people in the south due to the absence of their mandate. In this context, the recent ruling of the Supreme Court of New Zealand is quite significant. Though the court recognized the genuineness of a Kiribati man’s contention of being displaced from his homeland due to sea- level rise, it could not grant him refugee status, reasoning that he wouldn’t face prosecution if he
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