Wednesday Volume 604 6 January 2016 No. 92 HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) Wednesday 6 January 2016 £5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2016 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 267 6 JANUARY 2016 268 Government should not be financially disadvantaged House of Commons by the transfer of the new powers. What is the Secretary of State’s view of what a fair indexation for the block Wednesday 6 January 2016 grant adjustment would be? David Mundell: My understanding is that the Deputy The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock First Minister of Scotland, John Swinney, with whom I had a productive meeting just before Christmas, is PRAYERS conducting the negotiations on behalf of the Scottish Government. At our meeting, Mr Swinney assured me that his objective was exactly the same as that of the [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] United Kingdom Government—a settlement that is fair to Scotland and fair to the whole United Kingdom. Oral Answers to Questions Marion Fellows: A fair model of block grant adjustment would ensure that Scotland is no worse off financially as a result of the transfer of new powers. Does the Secretary of State agree with the cross-party view, and SCOTLAND that of Anton Muscatelli, Jim Cuthbert and the Scottish Trades Union Congress, that only the model of indexed The Secretary of State was asked— deduction per capita would adequately deliver the principle of no detriment? Fiscal Framework David Mundell: As I said, we are involved in an 1. Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): What recent discussions ongoing negotiation, which Mr Swinney is conducting. he has had with the Scottish Government on Scotland’s I have tremendous respect for his ability to reach a fair fiscal framework. [902843] settlement for Scotland, and for the Chief Secretary’s ability to reach a fair settlement for the rest of the United Kingdom. On the basis of the discussions that 2. Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP): took place between the First Minister and the Prime What recent discussions he has had with the Scottish Minister, my own discussions with the Deputy First Government on Scotland’s fiscal framework. [902844] Minister and the meeting that is due to take place on Friday, I am confident that we will be able to achieve a 5. Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): fair settlement. What recent discussions he has had with the Scottish Government on Scotland’s fiscal framework. [902847] Dr Eilidh Whiteford: A good new year to you, Mr Speaker. 10. Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) (SNP): What recent Many people will find it bizarre, and frankly unacceptable, discussions he has had with the Scottish Government that the Secretary of State for Scotland is not even attending the negotiations on Scotland’s fiscal framework. on Scotland’s fiscal framework. [902852] Can he explain why his office of Secretary of State seems to have been deemed irrelevant to those critical The Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell): negotiations? Given that he is not directly involved in May I begin by wishing you a very happy new year, the negotiations, will he share his personal view on Mr Speaker? whether he agrees with the learned professors and the In the light of the recent flooding in Scotland, may I STUC on the preferred model? pay tribute to all those in the emergency services and in local authorities, and the volunteers, who have dealt David Mundell: I think what many people in Scotland with the challenging circumstances? The thoughts of will find bizarre is that at a session in Parliament that is the whole House will be with those whose homes and called Scottish questions, the Scottish National party businesses have been flooded. could come up with only one question, which all its The UK and Scottish Governments are discussing the Members were clearly told to ask. fiscal framework through the Joint Exchequer Committee, I know that it may impinge on the importance that and there have been five meetings between the Deputy some SNP MPs attribute to themselves, but it is the First Minister and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury Deputy First Minister of Scotland, John Swinney, who to discuss it. The next meeting is due to take place on is negotiating the agreement, not them. Friday. Ronnie Cowan: The model of indexed adjustment for Mike Weir: I thank the Secretary of State for his the adjustment of the block grant may result in the answer and associate myself with what he said about Scottish block grant falling substantially without the flooding, which has affected my constituency and consideration of the different rates of population growth those of many of my colleagues. We appreciate the north and south of the border. Does the Secretary of work the emergency services are doing. State agree that that or any other model of block grant The block grant will need to be adjusted to take account adjustment that results in a diminished Scottish budget of the revenue-raising powers that are being devolved, year on year will not fulfil the Smith commission’s but, as agreed by the Smith commission, the Scottish principle of no detriment? 269 Oral Answers6 JANUARY 2016 Oral Answers 270 David Mundell: I am disappointed with the hon. for Scotland, and not the Deputy First Minister of Gentleman’s analysis because the new powers that are Scotland, confirm that the UK Government accept being delivered by the Scotland Bill create the opportunity that recommendation? for Scotland’s economic growth to increase and for Scotland’s population to increase. I am very surprised David Mundell: I can confirm to the hon. Gentleman that he has such a negative view of the use of those that that is one of the items that is part of the discussion powers that it would be impossible to increase population between the UK Government and the Scottish Government. or economic growth in Scotland and therefore increase It is so surprising that SNP MPs have such little confidence tax take. in Mr Swinney and the Scottish Government in the negotiation to hold out for positions that would be Alberto Costa (South Leicestershire) (Con): Does my beneficial to Scotland—I find it staggering. right hon. Friend agree that the transfer of the new extensive powers that he has agreed will be given to the 13. [902855] Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP): Scottish Parliament will for once make the SNP Does the Secretary of State agree with the First Government truly accountable to the Scottish people, Minister, Professor Muscatelli and the STUC that and that the talk of a second referendum is just a more powers for Scotland cannot come at any price, smokescreen to take away their accountability to the but that the fiscal framework settlement must deliver Scottish people? fairness for Scotland? Will the Secretary of State commit to a date before the Scottish elections by which David Mundell: I absolutely agree that the impression an agreement must be reached? created again today by SNP Members is that they are entirely driven by process arguments, and not by getting David Mundell: I absolutely agree that the arrangements on and getting an agreement on the fiscal framework, must be fair—fair to Scotland and fair to the rest of the getting the new powers in place and then doing something United Kingdom. That is perfectly achievable. I do not positive for the people of Scotland with those powers. want to provide a running commentary, but the negotiations and discussions that have taken place have been productive. Maggie Throup (Erewash) (Con): Will my right hon. For example, I absolutely agree with the comments of Friend confirm that, once the fiscal framework has Mr Swinney to the Scottish Parliament Finance Committee been agreed, the devolution of tax powers to the Scottish —he clearly said that the Scottish Government should Parliament can begin quickly? benefit from the positive decisions they take but accept the consequences of bad policy decisions. That should David Mundell: I am absolutely committed to delivering also apply to the UK Government in relation to our the powers set out in the Scotland Bill when it becomes responsibilities. an Act as quickly as possible. We want that Act on the statute book ahead of the Scottish Parliament elections Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): May I take this so that it can shape those elections, and so that the opportunity, Mr Speaker, to wish you and all the staff parties can set out what they intend to do with the of the House, as well as the Secretary of State and his powers. I would like the tax powers in place by April office, a happy new year? Mr Speaker, you would have 2017. thought that the pantomime season was over, but judging by today’s questions, it clearly is not—[Interruption.] John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): The success of the Oh, yes, it certainly is. I was expecting that, from fiscal framework is vital to the future success of the tax someone who has no jokes whatsoever. We could be powers that have been devolved. Confidence in the questioning the Government on no shortage of things, framework is vital for individuals and businesses, particularly but the Secretary of State has created this sham by in the border region. Does the Secretary of State believe keeping the fiscal framework secret. What is ludicrous is that the Scottish Government are approaching the that the SNP Finance Secretary, who is negotiating the discussions in good faith, which will be fair to people on very fiscal framework that we are discussing, could be both sides of the border? asked what is in it.