NASFAA’s “Off the Cuff” Podcast - Episode 203 Transcript

Justin Draeger: Hey, everyone. Welcome to another edition of Off the Cuff. I'm Justin Draeger.

Megan Coval: I'm Megan Coval with NASFAA's policy team.

Erin Powers: I'm Erin Powers with NASFAA's communications team.

Karen McCarthy: And I'm Karen McCarthy. Also with NASFAA's policy team.

Justin Draeger: Welcome gang. It is an August episode, which means it's a special episode, as I was thinking about this episode. Do you all remember? I see, I don't know, we're different. We're kind of around the same generation, but Karen, you might remember most remember in the eighties, when we had like special episodes and the regular sitcom music would change and it was like a special Punky Brewster, or it was a special Mr. Belvedere or whatever.

Karen McCarthy: Mr. Belvedere, wow, haven't thought about him in a while.

Erin Powers: I like picturing you watching Punky Brewster, Justin.

Justin Draeger: Well I remember, there was a special Punky Brewster. It was about The Challenger explosion and yeah, I'm sorry.

Justin Draeger: It was 30 years ago. I'm just saying that whenever I hear a special episode, I just can't think shake the eighties when it was like they had the hype music and they turned it down and like a special episode. And this is kind of like that we don't have breaking news, but as people saw in Today's News, Megan, you are you're up and leaving NASFAA.

Megan Coval: Yes. After 11 years.

Justin Draeger: Tell us about the new gig what's going on. Megan Coval: Yeah, so leaving NASFAA after 11 really good years. Almost 11 exactly. I am headed back to Pennsylvania. I say back because headed back to Norway, grew up north of just north of Pittsburgh and going with the whole family to be closer to extended family. But I will also be starting a position at Butler County Community College. And with them, I will be overseeing their education foundation, which is kind of their development and fundraising arm, but also their external and government relations. So little, little different, little the same, you know.

Justin Draeger: Yeah, and we're very excited for you to take this next step and obviously very sad that you're leaving. This episode's going to be maybe a little self-indulgent in that, this is sort of our special farewell episode to Megan. Also though, I think there's stuff in here, Megan, about your career and career choices that might be illuminating for folks who are thinking about their own career choices, especially coming out of the pandemic. It was sort of like everybody's sort of frozen in place for a year. I think a lot of people are coming out of the pandemic, thinking about their careers, job choices, work-life balance, all that sort of thing. And there might also be some stuff in here about some of the successful policy and advocacy work over the last decade that we've worked together on and, sometimes not so successful policy campaigns that we've worked together on that might also help folks.

Justin Draeger: So, this episode is going to be a little bit self-indulgent just because we'll be talking and reminiscing about some of our favorite memories together, some of the success we've had, but hopefully, and Megan, I hope some of the funnier moments that we've had over the last decade, but it'll also be helpful illuminating for folks who are perhaps facing career choices or work-life balance choices, who are thinking about making some career moves and who were thinking about public policy and what works and sometimes doesn't work. So I'd like to jump in and maybe just ask you a few questions. If that's all right, the very first one I have is how could you? We'll start with that.

Erin Powers: How dare you?

Justin Draeger: Where do you get off quitting NASFAA.

Megan Coval: Aww, I know.

Justin Draeger: I have one question. We sort of have an outline to this today, so it's kind of off the cuff, but kind of not, but there's one question I don't have on here, which is, do you remember your first day or your first week at NASFAA, anything memorable in there?

Megan Coval: Yes. I remember my first day. I remember that you weren't there. Erin Powers: Power move, ultimate power move.

Justin Draeger: Oh hey! On my way out the door.

Megan Coval: So, Beth was the one who walked me around and I remember being a little stressed out because you had told me, and I think you shared a similar story recently, not to come until nine 15 or something basically to probably give Beth some time, to get here and get settled.

Justin Draeger: Get centered.

Megan Coval: So I was sort of like, I don't really know what to do with that. So I just, I think I got there at nine and just hung out by the door or whatever. But I remember that, I remember I went to lunch with Joan, Joan and Jennifer Martin. They took me out to lunch.

Justin Draeger: Joan Berkus.

Megan Coval: Joan Berkus, yeah. And I just also remember leaving that first week feeling like, wow, I already feel like I've been here for like a couple of months. Nobody really made me feel new. I really distinctly remember that about NASFAA. And I feel like that that warmth has sort of continued and played out in so many different ways.

Justin Draeger: Where was your first office at, in the building? Do you remember, I'm trying to remember where you were at?

Megan Coval: I think I was right next to you. If you were coming out of your office to your right.

Justin Draeger: To my right, okay.

Megan Coval: So it looks out over like 17th street.

Justin Draeger: Yeah. People might not know, but we've worked together for almost 11 years. Like it would've been 11 years next month or October maybe next month. So you were my first hire when I came on as president. And obviously, I feel very lucky that, that you applied and that we got you at NASFAA. It's been a great 11 years. I also remember you checking in a lot, which made me feel like I did not provide the proper onboarding or guidance.

Justin Draeger: Like I just never, you always popping in my office and I was always like "Okay, yeah."

Megan Coval: I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go get lunch.

Justin Draeger: Not the bathrooms.

Erin Powers: 'Can I have the hall pass, Justin? I need to use the restroom.'

Justin Draeger: I do remember you being like, "I'm going to go get a diet Coke" and I'd be like, "Yeah. Good on you. All right."

Megan Coval: Yeah, I was sort of like the environment that I came from before then. So I think, I thought that was normal.

Justin Draeger: It was sort of an old-school sort of, you have to have to be in you're at your place and if you're not at your place do this and that. And I just remember pulling you in and being like "the last person I've ever worried about is you. And like, you go where you need to be. And if I'm in the office and I don't see you here, I'm not worried at all. I know how to get a hold of you."

Megan Coval: No, I appreciate you just hitting that on the head for me. Cause that probably would have still been going on today if you hadn't.

Erin Powers: Yeah. I don't think anybody assumes that you're out getting your nails done. If you're not in your office, people are like, "Megan's on the Hill" or "she's doing something really important."

Justin Draeger: "Anybody seen Megan?"

Megan Coval: You know what's something else I also remember that's funny from my interview? Is that, the place I was before, it would have been unusual for me to have gone in there in a suit if I wasn't going to the Hill. And I just remember, I was trying to not make it seem like I was going to an interview and the building was attached to a hotel. So I was like, "okay, I'm going to take my suit and go down and change in the hotel bathroom." And then I went down, the hotel bathroom was closed. And so I crouched in this corner and changed my clothes into this suit in this dark corner of the hotel.

Karen McCarthy: Wait where? Where did you do this?

Megan Coval: The Washington Court Hotel. Because, I was so afraid.

Justin Draeger: You didn't want to signal to the last place you were working that you were going to interview somewhere.

Megan Coval: Yeah! And now I'm thinking, why did I just take the day off? I have all these questions about it, but I distinctly remember sweating. Cause it was August, I'm in the corner trying to hide from people, changing my clothes and look at that though, you know?

Justin Draeger: Yeah.

Megan Coval: All worked out.

Justin Draeger: Yeah. I also was thinking back to your interview. I don't remember the first interview at all. I don't even remember who was in the interview. Karen, were you in the first interview with Megan?

Megan Coval: You were.

Karen McCarthy: I imagine. Oh, good. Thanks Megan.

Justin Draeger: Karen doesn't remember. Zing on you, Megan. Geez. Nobody remembers.

Megan Coval: You, Beth and Joan.

Justin Draeger: Okay. But I do remember the second interview because it was just you and I, and we called you back. And I remember on that one, I do remember you wore jeans because you asked specifically like, "Hey, I'm headed out of town. I'm leaving right after. Can I come casually?" And I was like . . .

Karen McCarthy: Or should I change a hotel bathroom? What's the deal?

Justin Draeger: What's the hotel bathroom situation?

Megan Coval: I actually can't believe I did that.

Justin Draeger: Which part? Coming in in jeans?

Megan Coval: Yeah. I'm shocked at myself that I did that.

Erin Powers: But you okayed it first.

Justin Draeger: Yeah. what was I supposed to say?

Erin Powers: You got permission.

Justin Draeger: Once you put me on the spot, what was I supposed to say? Please don't?

Megan Coval: I can't even believe I asked that. I don't know who that girl was. I wouldn't do that now,

Justin Draeger: But I was like, "yeah of course that's fine." And then when you came in, do you remember the concern that I raised with you?

Erin Powers: The jeans?

Justin Draeger: No, it wasn't the jeans. Erin Powers: The dress code has been a problem.

Megan Coval: Yes. You said that you weren't sure if I could hang with the, I'm paraphrasing here, but with the other GR folks.

Justin Draeger: I was afraid that you . . . I wasn't afraid. I wanted to ask and follow up with you and say, you seem very nice. And in this world, people are not so nice.

Erin Powers: You're going to get eaten.

Justin Draeger: People, throw elbows, people are snarky. People think they're being witty when they're just being jerks. And it's government relations. I think it's changing by the way, Megan, I'd be interested in your perspective on that, but I do think it's changing.

Justin Draeger: But there was sort of this old school political machine where the bigger, the a-hole you could be the more street credit you had, which is ridiculous. And I wasn't worried about you necessarily personally getting chewed up. I was like, "how do you feel about throwing elbows? How do you feel about standing your ground here" Because you are very friendly, you're very nice, you're very empathetic. And I remember, you have this face during the interview, that's smiling. And I remember as soon as I asked the question, you kind of put on your game face and you're like, "yes, I can do that."

Justin Draeger: And I was like, "okay, sold!" Then I think we can hire this one. So, is that how you recall or not really?

Megan Coval: I think I do remember you asking that question and probably inside being like, "oh, I don't know" but saying yes. You know? And in a way I don't even think I really knew what I was getting into. It was almost better, you know?

Justin Draeger: What do you mean by that? I mean, you obviously knew the job you were applying for it.

Megan Coval: No, I knew that, but I didn't. And I sort of had dabbled a little bit in the GR world in my prior position, but I didn't sort of quite understand how it operated in the association world. And it was something to get used to. And I guess what I'm saying is, I'm sort of glad, I didn't know. And then just kind of dove in and just went with it, you know? Justin Draeger: Yep, I agree. I feel like sometimes we self eliminate ourselves from jobs that we would be qualified for because we don't tick every box. When I was in college, I remember, this is back in the late nineties, I applied for a job and they were like, "and do you know, Excel?" And I was like, "I know it exists." I didn't say that. What I said was, "Yes, of course."

Justin Draeger: And then I bought a book on Excel before I started. And I was like, "I got to learn this program." But sometimes you got to jump in, you got to put yourself out there and be confident that you can learn and pick up some of this along the way.

Megan Coval: I was also just going to say too, I think it's a really good reminder for people of all ages and in different points in their career that, I don't think I've ever been fully qualified for any job that I've had. Right? Based on the job description. Certainly, I wasn't, I mean, I don't want to say this like, "what were you thinking, Justin?" But, I remember that position had 10 years GR experience and I kind of cobbled together, I don't know, maybe four or five.

Justin Draeger: Yeah, I think that's right. So first of all, the entire premise that you're going to find the perfect candidate, in using a few written pages of a resume and a cover letter and then one to two to three hours of interviewing is sort of absurd in the face of it. So you're evaluating that they have minimum qualifications to do the job, but you're also sort of doing this math on, do they fit the culture, and I mean, in an unbiased way, like at NASFAA, for us, that means team-based work. Can you work in a team? Are you comfortable with team-based accountability? Are you comfortable with team-based praise sort of things? That's, that's one of our ethos.

Justin Draeger: And so, a lot of that is just sort of catching the, the field for folks, but there is no 100% foolproof interview or candidate. I just feel like, we're trying to find approximations of folks that would fill a good job. So over the last 11 years that you've been doing this at NASFAA, how has advocacy work changed? How has NASFAA changed? What do you see as the trends for student aid policy? What's changed most?

Megan Coval: Yeah. Well, starting with NASFAA, we've changed in so many ways and the time that I've been here and some of them are in very tangible and measurable ways, like even our number of staff and the number of products and services and resources we provide our members. But I think from an advocacy standpoint, one of the biggest changes that I've seen from beginning to end, and that I think is a really good thing, is just that I think we really have a solid footprint in the higher ed policy community and a solid presence. And I didn't necessarily feel like that when we came in and there was a lot of change of course, prior to it, and it kind of disrupt and prior to me becoming here, but I think it took a lot of work on the part of a lot of people to kind of get ourselves back in that space.

Megan Coval: And what I mean is that the role that we play with the other associations and the other think tanks and research organizations, and I think we had to really build back up our credibility. And one of the things I'm really proud of now is that I feel like we're a unique group and that we play well in the association world. But I think we also have a lot of respect with the think tank and research world. And sometimes, well often, those are sort of two disparate worlds down here. And I think that is a really great change.

Justin Draeger: If you look back over sort of the history of NASFAA folks that have been in this profession for several decades, you'll remember Dallas, Martin and Larry Z. and some of the predecessors who sort of built this association. NASFAA was founded on national advocacy primarily. And then we added training components as we partnered with the department of education. But Dallas in particular, and some of the founders of NASFAA were in at the ground floor. They helped write legislation that morphed into today's student aid programs. But in that span of time, and right before we sort of came on, Megan, the policy world changed significantly. The folks that had been in at the ground floor, who literally started drafting student aid, they weren't here. And then you had the rise of the education-based think tanks.

Justin Draeger: The world changed significantly in terms of policy and advocacy in the two thousands. And so NASFAA then had to shift accordingly. And that shift included recognizing the role of grantors and funders who were putting significant money into this space, new advocates and student groups in particular, who started flexing more than they had ever previously. And then yes, working in these large coalitions with very disparate interests. And so we kind of needed to change our advocacy strategy into what it is today, which continues to make us relevant. We fill both a niche and sort of a grassroots advocacy role. And you, Karen, Joan and the other folks on the policy team have done a remarkable job at helping us make that transition.

Justin Draeger: Any standout moments in our advocacy work or any of the funny moments that you can think over the last 11 years?

Megan Coval: Oh, in the advocacy work there's so much. I mean, I think I'll always remember that we had Ken Kosar in for, I think the leadership conference and he made a connection with one of his senators and then shortly thereafter, he was asked to come back and testify in a banking hearing. Which is huge and something that very few people get to do to be put in that type of position. And it was just such a great experience for him, but also for us as a staff, because he hadn't done anything like that before. So being able to prepare him and help him write and think through things and then see him do it and do it so well and answer questions, that was a really special thing.

Justin Draeger: It's funny you should mention Ken, because he did send it a comment to the podcast here on your last episode.

Megan Coval: Oh really? Justin Draeger: Yeah. He said "if I had to choose one of my favorite memories of Megan, it's the time I testified before the Senate banking committee" he said that "your presence beside him was not only comforting and supportive, but you made it such an enjoyable experience." And he said, "thank you for your kindness and sincerity. I'm so glad our paths crossed in life. And I look forward to them crossing in the future." So that's from, from Ken.

Megan Coval: Well, that's very nice and very special that he shares the same memory. I will always remember that. So, so, so many things I love the little rally that we did in San Diego, Fight for a Financial Aid. That was so fun. That was, we do this stuff afar with our members and find ways to engage them. But usually we don't get to see it all in one place. So there was a lot of energy there. And then I think, like I said, tons of stuff, but, and this is kind of broad, but one point I just want to make is that I feel like in the government relations space, a lot of times you either spend time on things that just don't make any progress or you spend time stopping bad things from happening.

Megan Coval: And you don't often see a lot of what you might call a kind of like a true victory. Like, oh, we got this provision into law, but I do feel so good about walking away with things like, during my time here, we went to PPY and early FAFSA, which was really my thing. That was my thing for the first few years here. I remember when Justin told me that PPY, that the white house called you, you pulled me in, in the old office. And said the white house called you and that they were going to do it via executive action. And I do think I like shed a tear in that moment. Cause I was like, "what? Oh my gosh!" All of that work all of that time and FAFSA simplification, I mean, all of this has been an enormous team and community effort, but I think it's pretty cool to think about the fact that some of those big things, that we were a part of. So, that feels good and that feels worth it. To me.

Justin Draeger: I agree a hundred percent and the calls keep coming. I mean, that's sort of the sign is that we still get the calls from lawmakers and from Capitol hill and from 1600 Pennsylvania. And so, and from our partners. And so there's a lot of this sort of community building that happens behind the scenes, but we've had marked victories along the way. So anything stick out that didn't quite go right? Or that went a little sideways in the last 11 years?

Megan Coval: Well, I was thinking about the time I had to present in my Pittsburgh pirates shirt to MASFAA the region. Do you remember that Justin, you were with me?

Justin Draeger: Because you lost your luggage?

Megan Coval: Yeah. We both went, because it was during the government shutdown.

Justin Draeger: Oh, right. Yeah.

Megan Coval: Yeah. And you didn't lose your luggage, but I lost mine. I think I did one of those things where like there were too many bags on the plane and I was like, oh, just gate, check it. And then

Justin Draeger: Yeah that sounds like you. Yeah, I would never, in a million years gate check my bag. I'd be like, you'll don't have to tear this bag from my cold dead hands.

Megan Coval: Yeah.

Erin Powers: That happened to Beth Maglione once too, when she was, I think addressing the board, she was going to a board meeting in Florida and she'd worked out that morning. And she was wearing like workout clothes on the plane that were still sweaty. And then she lost her luggage and had to present to the board of directors and play it off. Like, yeah, this is athleisure aware. This is how everybody in DC dresses. Now

Justin Draeger: We've been there. I lost my luggage and Reno. And the only thing open at 1:00 AM in Reno was the Reno Wal-Mart airport. It was the airport, Walmart. And I could not find anything without an Eagle on it.

Erin Powers: Wait, there's a Walmart at the airport?

Justin Draeger: Right outside the airport. Yeah. And that . . .

Erin Powers: Tells me that's not the first time their planes have lost people's luggage. And they've had to make a Walmart run.

Justin Draeger: Don't get me wrong I love Walmart, but I do like my clothes without Eagles or snakes on them. And this Walmart was totally out of anything other than Eagles and snakes. So, that's what I wore. I wore like a shirt with an eagle on it the next morning.

Erin Powers: Eagle's patriotic. I think if your choices were eagle or snake, you chose right.

Justin Draeger: Yeah you go for the eagle. Justin Draeger: I vaguely remember you wearing this Pittsburgh pirates shirt. This is a good example, things that seem really big to you though. Does anybody, nobody remembers that who was at MASFAA though?

Megan Coval: We'll see.

Justin Draeger: Okay.

Megan Coval: I was more here's what [inaudible 00:22:27] ? I felt like people, gosh, especially our members would be like totally understanding of that. And even think it was funny, but what felt awkward to me was that I was up at the last supper table, having breakfast before I went on, on the dais where I was, just sitting there in my pirate shirt, not able to explain. And at the time they were in the playoffs, which they never are. So, I was thinking people probably just thought like, listen, this girl is hardcore. Her team is finally there. And she's like going all out.

Erin Powers: She's got an audience.

Justin Draeger: It's a little offensive in that, that state isn't in the region that you were in. But otherwise I think it's fine.

Megan Coval: Yeah. Well, I just thought they might be like, "oh, that's your jacket?" Just, yeah. I don't know. There've been so many things,

Justin Draeger: MASFAA has taken it's share. I once showed up to a MASFA for conference. I put my dress shoes on the roof of my car, sped to the airport. I saw the shoes fly off the car and constitution avenue. And I was like, "well! Those shoes are gone." So I presented in a suit with Sketchers on.

Erin Powers: Very Jerry Seinfeld.

Justin Draeger: Yeah. It was like, I hope somebody picks up those shoes.

Megan Coval: Gosh. I mean, the travel, that has been like such a gift of what this job is. I feel like I've been to almost every state most because of this job, all the different people, different places, the kindness, the hospitality. Justin Draeger: The Corn Palace.

Megan Coval: The Corn Palace.

Justin Draeger: Or the Corn Palaces.

Megan Coval: Yeah, sweet members. I've had so many kind people pick me up at the airport and these places I've never been to. And Janet Reece took care of me when I got sick in Montana.

Erin Powers: Meg, I don't know if you saw this, but we, so we ask people to submit comments for this episode because we knew we were going to do a send-off for you and one of our members. I'm sorry, I can't remember who, wrote in and said that one of their favorite memories that you shared on the podcast was when, and I don't think I know this story. It was when you were landing and you had to get into the crash position, like on NASFAA travel, really risking your life to present for NASFAA.

Justin Draeger: And there was a country music star next to you, right?

Megan Coval: Yes. He's like, they're like really big now, too. So I feel like every time I see them . . .

Karen McCarthy: Who was it?

Megan Coval: His name is Brad Tursi. And he's with Old Dominion, which Old Dominion is like very, very big right now. So, anytime I see him, I think . . .

Karen McCarthy: Of crashing?

Megan Coval: We had a moment. We had a moment for life.

Erin Powers: Moment for life.

Megan Coval: Yeah.

Justin Draeger: Yeah, you guys had a moment, Like you, grabbed hands and like "we're about to die."

Megan Coval: Yeah. But then it was all fine. It was all fine.

Justin Draeger: Right. So you recompose yourself and you say good luck on your career.

Megan Coval: Yes.

Karen McCarthy: See you never.

Megan Coval: Best to you.

Erin Powers: Something I'll remember forever.

Justin Draeger: Erin and Karen, you've been off and on the podcast a little bit. And I invited you on, because you both work with Megan. I've worked with Megan pretty closely over the years. Anything stand out for you as in Megan's tenure here at NASFAA? Erin?

Erin Powers: Yeah. I mean so much for me, Meg, you're just the most amazing coworker. I think anybody on the staff would say that.

Erin Powers: We're all going to miss you so much. We're so excited for you. Like Justin said, but I just can't imagine having had a better, kinder, more understanding, smarter coworker. I feel like you really you've challenged everybody on your staff and people that aren't on your staff, like me and people on the communications team to do their best, because you're always doing your best and pushing yourself. And that's just so admirable.

Erin Powers: I do have a funny Megan moment that I wanted to share. And I think you'll remember this unless you blocked it out because it was traumatic. So to give some context, before we were in our current office, we were in an older building where we were renting office space and the fire alarm just went off like several times a week for no reason. And it went off so often that Justin, as his, his personality would just kind of write them off. So anytime the fire alarm went off, we'd all be in a meeting. If Justin was in the meeting, everybody was kind of looking over at him to take the temperature. Like, "are we all, going to leave? Or do we need to play it cool and just sit here and see if we start burning soon?" Because Justin would just sit there, like, "ah, false alarm. This, this is nothing to pay attention to." So that's kind of the background.

Karen McCarthy: But we were on the 11 floor too. Which I think.

Justin Draeger: It was a trip. I mean, to get down would have been a little hairy.

Erin Powers: Right because you can't take the elevator, which is actually my whole story.

Justin Draeger: For context I would just, just so people know, I brought in earplugs that I would pop in during these things. Cause I was like," I'm not tracking down. . ."

Karen McCarthy: What is this nonsense? I have work to do. [crosstalk 00:27:24]

Megan Coval: Meanwhile, we're like three blocks from The White House over a Metro. All I can think about is all the things

Karen McCarthy: Terrorists even.

Megan Coval: Yes!

Erin Powers: So that's the background. So Megan had been out on maternity leave with her first kid and she was coming into the office so that we could see the baby and kind of visit with her while she was still out on leave. And so she came, she took the elevator up to the 11th floor and she had all the gear that you, that tiny babies come with. So she's got this roller and the bottles and just so much stuff, the diaper bag and the baby. And we're visiting with her, and I can remember standing in the hallway of the old office. And I think it was me, Megan and Justin and the fire alarm starts going off. And I look over at Megan and just panic comes over her face. She's holding her newborn baby. And she's looking at Justin and I can see this like exchange happening in their eyes.

Erin Powers: Like, Justin's like, "well, I'm not leaving" say that, but that's, what's happening in his eyes. And Megan's like, "I'm getting out of here, we got to go." So we waited like a beat. And then Meg was like, ah, "I'm going to go for the stairwell." So Megan's holding Annie. I grabbed some of her gear. Somebody else grabbed more of the baby gear, but there's so much stuff. And one of the things is this humongous stroller. So, we're all just running down the stairs from the 11th floor around and around and around down the stairwells, it takes forever. We're going quickly, but kind of cautiously because Megan's holding again a newborn. So finally we get down to the lobby and the fire Marshall is there and he's like, "it was a false alarm. Everybody can take the elevator back up!"

Erin Powers: But there's like this huge backlog of people, everybody in the building had beat us down because we were going slowly with this newborn. So we had to wait in line. And I think Meg was like, "I don't know. Maybe I'm just going to go" does this feel worth it, waiting to go back up? But oh my God, that, that was a classic Megan/Justin moment and something I'll remember.

Justin Draeger: Now, I do remember that. And as I recall, now this might not be true, but in my mind at least, as I recall, I carried that stroller.

Megan Coval: You did.

Justin Draeger: Down 11 flights of stairs.

Megan Coval: I was just going to say, yes, you are a good man. You carried that. You reluctantly maybe, but you carried it.

Justin Draeger: By myself I wouldn't have even left the damn building. But in this moment I was like, cause sometimes we'd be down there for like an hour.

Megan Coval: Yeah.

Justin Draeger: It was crazytown.

Megan Coval: It was cold too. Yeah.

Justin Draeger: So, I was like, "all right, I guess I'll take the stroller." Erin Powers: But I do remember when we got down there and the fire Marshall was there and he was like, "this was a false alarm." I was like, "I can't look at Justin's face right now to see what it looks like after him lugging that stroller".

Justin Draeger: Good thing I didn't take that stroller and just chuck it into Connecticut Avenue.

Megan Coval: Well, that reminds me. And I'll be quick with this, cause I know we're wrapping up, but this happened when we were on the hill, remember this Justin?

Justin Draeger: Yeah, we were giving a briefing on something.

Karen McCarthy: We were in the Senate Building, remember?

Megan Coval: Yes, and the alarms went off then. And you, you were moderating maybe because it was our event, but we had other guests and again, it went off and I think everybody was looking for you to be like, "we should leave." And you were just like . . .

Karen McCarthy: And he just kept talking.

Megan Coval: So like gradually people are like . . .

Justin Draeger: But in this instance, I'll let you know, it was 110 degrees outside. I was wearing a suit and I was like, "the event's over." There was a half hour left by the time the whole Capitol building is evacuated, we're never getting back in here. So I was like, "maybe if I just keep talking," but I could see people shifting around uncomfortably. And was it you, Megan who popped in and were like, "they are telling us we have to go."?

Megan Coval: Yeah, probably. Cause I was all nervous in the front. Meanwhile, I'm like dying inside because again, similar to our office location and like we are sitting in the US Senate Building.

Erin Powers: Like prime targets, yeah.

Megan Coval: Yes, and so I Remember Jesse was there and oh gosh, yeah. See all these things. We're all here to tell about it.

Justin Draeger: Good times. We have a couple comments from members, as Erin said, we went out and solicited and we have a whole bunch that will give you copies of before you leave. But a couple that I wanted to share. Helen Faith from the University of Wisconsin, Madison, said that "Megan is such a polished professional, so gracious and intelligent. She might seem unapproachable, but in reality, she is incredibly thoughtful down to earth and kind, and one of the most approachable people I know."

Justin Draeger: Mary Sommer says "we appreciated having her expertise, but what we really loved about Megan was the ferocity at which she engaged in our minute to win it games at RMASFAA it did not matter how humiliating the activity was, Megan was always right in the middle."

Megan Coval: That was on my list too. My long list of memories I couldn't mention them all.

Justin Draeger: Bob Kauflin from Wesleyan University, formerly of Harvard Medical School, said that "Megan was instrumental in prepping him on a higher Ed. update when he was tasked with this assignment unexpectedly at a graduate committee symposium." He said that "you helped him feel empowered to confidently present on the topic. You will be missed."

Justin Draeger: Kay Lewis from Washington said, "A general sense of watching her development as a professional in the world of DC, my memories are of seeing Megan grow confident in our role and being such a fine presenter, a very technical informant. I often listen for the way she positively phrases reaction to bills and keeps her comments neutral. Bipartisan she's masterful."

Justin Draeger: Raul Lerma said "He loves the way that you come across as a true friend to those in the financial aid profession."

Justin Draeger: And I'll just add, Megan, the thing I would say about you as you are one of the people I know who has really just no guile, you genuinely are a nice person.

Justin Draeger: And that sounds generic until you think about, especially in, in politics, just like how rare it is to have someone so involved in policy work and advocacy work and maintain who they are in the face of sometimes really unkind politics. And I know I've relied on that personally, as we've done our advocacy work. And I'm so grateful that I've had more than a decade to work with you. You've been a personal confidant, a friend, and I'm going to miss having you at NASFAA and I'm still so excited for you and your family as you move on to the next stage in your life and in your career. Megan Coval: Thank you. And thanks for sharing. Thanks for sharing those feedback and comments from members and your words as well. That's really sweet.

Justin Draeger: All right. Anything else, Megan?

Megan Coval: Well, I guess just to wrap up, I mean, if I can just for a second. Yeah. I mean, it's sort of hard to summarize the last 11 years, but it's been just in totality, such a great experience for me. I feel so lucky to have had this job. I feel like I had the opportunity to do so many interesting, unique things in this role. I have loved working with our members and I said this to some of you and many of you have so kindly reached out and wished me well, which I appreciate, but you are part of the motivation for wanting to be back on campus and wanting to stay in higher ed. So I'm thinking of you as I go on to my, to my next step and my next chapter, that NASFAA team has been so wonderful to work with. You know, the policy team has been amazing.

Megan Coval: I met with them yesterday and told them that I think that they're wonderful, but don't take any credit for it. They're just, it's the people that they are, the smarts that they have. They're so hardworking, so humble, so fun. And I really feel like I told them yesterday, I'm like, I feel like they built me. I didn't build them. I feel like that 110% going into this new job.

Megan Coval: And you know, Justin to you, you are a very kind person and I've always been to me. And one of the things I just want people to know is that this has been such a wonderful exit for me. I was never sure what it would look like when I left NASFAA and I'm very sad to leave, but Justin has been, so incredibly supportive and has been looped in to all of this and was encouraging me and helping me and giving me a peaceful easy off-ramp. And I'm so appreciative of that. I feel really good about my time here. I leave with warm feelings and good feelings and that's because of all of you.

Justin Draeger: Thanks, Megan, stay in touch.

Megan Coval: I will.

Justin Draeger: All right. So this month, this next month in September, we'll be ending our fifth year of doing Off the Cuff. That's five years, I think by my account, just over 200 episodes. Megan, how many downloads do you think we've had in five years?

Megan Coval: Okay. Let's . . . 25,000 Justin Draeger: In the last five years, we've had 250,000 downloads of our podcast. So a quarter million downloads. And that probably doesn't include all the folks that are listening like via their PC when they open it on today's news the next morning.

Justin Draeger: 90,000 of those downloads came into the year 2020 alone. So in a way we're just sort of, we've been doing this for five years. We're sort of just reaching our stride in the last year or two, but I'll also say five years is a long time to do any single thing. And Megan, with your departure, we started with me and you and Stephen and Allie. Allie's out on new parent leave. Steven has left, Megan, you're leaving for your next opportunity. And we realized we've developed a community here at Off the Cuff and like all communities, we have sort of our evangelists.

Justin Draeger: We have our diehard Off the Cuff folks. We love you. You're the reason why we have kept doing this for so long. We also have our curmudgeons and we love you too. The people who complained about our format or that sometimes we're a little too light or friendly. We love you just as much as everyone else.

Justin Draeger: But we are going to take a moment to just sort of pause here and we're going to be doing some retooling. We're going to be doing some strategizing about what's next for NASFAA's podcasts. Congress is taking a little bit of a longer hiatus from their summer recess and not coming back till the end of September. So we are going to continue our hiatus into September as we rethink the podcast and how it might change going forward. So we'll obviously, if there's anything breaking that needs to be reported, we will come back and do some reporting on that. But otherwise we appreciate your patience as we take a step back and do some re-strategizing around Off the Cuff and our podcast format. So please feel free to send us your comments. Remember to subscribe, tell a friend, we will look forward to talking to in the coming weeks.