House of Commons Home Affairs Committee Appointment of Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary

Third Report of Session 2012–13

Volume II

Oral and written evidence

Ordered by the House of Commons to be printed 26 June 2012

HC 183-II Published on 9 August 2012 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £7.50

The Home Affairs Committee

The Home Affairs Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Home Office and its associated public bodies.

Current membership

Rt Hon Keith Vaz MP (Labour, Leicester East) (Chair) Nicola Blackwood MP (Conservative, Oxford West and Abingdon) James Clappison MP (Conservative, Hertsmere) Michael Ellis MP (Conservative, Northampton North) Lorraine Fullbrook MP (Conservative, South Ribble) Dr Julian Huppert MP (Liberal Democrat, Cambridge) Steve McCabe MP (Labour, Birmingham Selly Oak) Rt Hon Alun Michael MP (Labour & Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth) Bridget Phillipson MP (Labour, Houghton and Sunderland South) Mark Reckless MP (Conservative, Rochester and Strood) Mr David Winnick MP (Labour, Walsall North)

Powers

The Committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 152. These are available on the Internet via www.parliament.uk.

Publication

The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the Internet at www.parliament.uk/homeaffairscom.

Committee staff

The current staff of the Committee are Tom Healey (Clerk), Richard Benwell (Second Clerk), Ruth Davis (Committee Specialist), Eleanor Scarnell (Committee Specialist), Andy Boyd (Senior Committee Assistant), John Graddon (Committee Support Officer) and Alex Paterson (Select Committee Media Officer).

Contacts

All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Home Affairs Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 3276; the Committee’s email address is [email protected].

Witnesses

Tuesday 26 June 2012 Page

Rt Hon Nick Herbert MP, Minister of State for Police and Criminal Justice Ev 1

Tom Winsor, Government's preferred candidate for Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Constabulary Ev 9

List of printed written evidence

1 Home Office Ev 21, Ev 22 2 White & Case LLP Ev 22, Ev 23

List of Reports from the Committee during the current Parliament

The reference number of the Government’s response to each Report is printed in brackets after the HC printing number.

Session 2012–13

First Report Effectiveness of the Committee in 2010–12 HC 144 Second Report Work of the Permanent Secretary (April–Dec 2011) HC 145 Third Report Pre-appointment Hearing for Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of HC 183 Constabulary Fourth Report Private Investigators HC 100 Fifth Report The work of the UK Border Agency (Dec 2011–March 2012) HC 71 Sixth Report The work of the Border Force HC 523

Session 2010–12

First Report Immigration Cap HC 361 Second Report Policing: Police and Crime Commissioners HC 511 Third Report Firearms Control HC 447 Fourth Report The work of the UK Border Agency HC 587 Fifth Report Police use of Tasers HC 646 Sixth Report Police Finances HC 695 Seventh Report Student Visas HC 773 Eighth Report Forced marriage HC 880 Ninth Report The work of the UK Border Agency (Nov 2010-March 2011) HC 929 Tenth Report Implications for the Justice and Home Affairs area of the HC 789 accession of Turkey to the European Union Eleventh Report Student Visas – follow up HC 1445 Twelfth Report Home Office – Work of the Permanent Secretary HC 928 Thirteenth Report Unauthorised tapping into or hacking of mobile HC 907 communications Fourteenth Report New Landscape of Policing HC 939 Fifteenth Report The work of the UK Border Agency (April-July 2011) HC 1497 Sixteenth Report Policing large scale disorder HC 1456 Seventeenth Report UK Border Controls HC 1647 Eighteenth Report Rules governing enforced removals from the UK HC 563 Nineteenth Report Roots of violent radicalisation HC 1446 Twentieth Report Extradition HC 644 Twenty-first Report Work of the UK Border Agency (Aug-Dec 2011) HC 1722

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Home Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 1

Oral evidence

Taken before the Home Affairs Committee on Tuesday 26 June 2012

Members present: Keith Vaz (Chair)

Nicola Blackwood Alun Michael Mr James Clappison Bridget Phillipson Michael Ellis Mark Reckless Lorraine Fullbrook Mr David Winnick Dr Julian Huppert ______

Examination of Witness

Witness: Rt Hon Nick Herbert MP, Minister of State for Police and Criminal Justice, gave evidence.

Q1 Chair: Minister, good morning; my apologies for it was between £220,000 and £224,000, but you have keeping you waiting for this hearing, but thank you advertised this post at a lower salary? very much for coming in. Nick Herbert: Yes, I don’t think you can read Nick Herbert: Not at all. anything into that in relation to the job description; I Chair: Could I refer all those present to the Register think that is more a reflection of the age of austerity of Members Interests where the interests of the and it is already, and will be in many people’s eyes, a Members of this Committee are noted and in very good salary indeed, but was a reflection of the particular is there anyone else who wishes to make necessity we felt to recruit somebody of the highest a declaration? possible calibre, either from the ranks of senior Alun Michael: Chairman, can I declare the fact that policing where such salaries would not be uncommon I am a candidate for election as Police and Crime or, indeed, from another sector. Commissioner in South Wales. Chair: Thank you, Mr Michael. Minister, if I could Q3 Chair: When you set out to fill Sir Denis’ post, start by asking you about the post and the you and the Home Secretary, did you all decide at that advertisement that went out. Is this a different post stage that it was possible to have someone who was that you are trying to fill in respect of the job not a police officer in this job? description to that that was occupied by Sir Denis Nick Herbert: Yes. O’Connor? Is there a step change in the way in which Chair: Was it a conscious decision for you to look the Government wishes to look at the Inspectorate? outside? Nick Herbert: No, I don’t think step change would be Nick Herbert: Yes, and in the brief that we gave Saxton Bampfylde, the recruitment consultants who the right way to describe it. I think the role of the we employed to go and search for candidates and help Inspectorate has been evolving over recent years and manage the initial process, we specified that we indeed the previous Government took steps to change wanted them to include independent candidates as the role of the Inspectorate to make it more well as those from the police service. So we were independent of the police service. I think we have quite clear that that was part of their terms of continued that evolution in the Coalition Government reference. and indeed legislated in the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act to change the Inspectorate for Q4 Chair: As far as the process is concerned, is there instance that it would now report to Parliament not to anything that you have seen in the process that you the Government, which I think is right. Increasingly are concerned about, or are you happy with the way the Inspectorate is rightly seen as being the guardian in which the process operated? of the public interest in policing and has been one Nick Herbert: The process was a very proper one and of the mechanisms of ensuring that police forces can I am very happy to take the Committee through it if properly be held to account as a monopoly service it would be helpful, on how the approach was taken. for revealing what is happening in the police service. Chair: I think we have the actual process but we are Whereas I think previously, before Sir Denis, the interested in the vision behind it. Inspectorate was a body that was closer to the police Nick Herbert: I think that what was helpful about the service, operated in a way that was rather more quietly process from the point of view of Ministers is we had about trying to fix problems in association with the the engagement of a recruitment consultant who was police service and was not the kind of independent helping to try to approach people and identify body that I think is now needed for what is, in the candidates. We then had a selection panel that end, a monopoly public service. included independent people, including for instance Lord Dear, who was the former Chief Constable of Q2 Chair: We have noticed that the salary has West Midlands and HMI, who was a member of that changed. Certainly when Sir Denis was doing the job selection panel as well as the Permanent Secretary of cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [06-08-2012 13:08] Job: 022254 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/022254/022254_w002a_grace_B - 120720 White & Case.xml

Ev 2 Home Affairs Committee: Evidence

26 June 2012 Rt Hon Nick Herbert MP the Home Office, the number two on crime and don’t want to; it is because I think it is only fair to policing in the Home Office, and the non-executive those individuals. director in the Cabinet Office. Q11 Chair: Indeed, and you probably have not seen Q5 Chair: How many were on that panel? the reply from the Government to the Liaison Nick Herbert: There were five people on that panel Committee in which they have suggested that and they— Ministers in future should give a briefing on those who are shortlisted? Q6 Chair: How many were police officers? Nick Herbert: I personally wouldn’t have a problem Nick Herbert: There weren’t any current police with that. We have complete confidence in the officers. Lord Dear had been Chief Constable of the integrity of the process, in how this was gone about. West Midlands and he had been an HMI, so he was a It was a formal and proper process; there was an good person to be on that panel. They then produced independent civil service scrutineer on the selection the short list for us for what they called appointable panel and in the interview that the Home Secretary candidates, of which Tom Winsor was identified as and I conducted in the final interview. So that would the strongest appointable candidate by that panel. The not be a problem as far as I personally am concerned. Home Secretary and I then completed the final round of interviews. Q12 Chair: Finally from me, before I ask other Members of the Committee to come in on this, the Q7 Chair: Going on to your preferred candidate, you appointment of Mr Winsor, as you know, would have made it very clear to The Times on Saturday, in that caused a huge amount of interest from rank and file double spread interview with you, that you regarded officers, because I am sure you have seen the emails Mr Winsor as, “obviously the best candidate”, and you and you have seen the public comments. Indeed, we were quoted, I think, on the Today programme as received some of those in replies to the letters we have saying he was head and shoulders above all the other sent out. Were you aware of that? Were you aware that his appointment would cause such controversy? candidates. Nick Herbert: Of course, and the— Nick Herbert: I didn’t use the words “head and shoulders” but clearly we regarded him as the strongest candidate, that is why we put him forward Q13 Chair: Is this why you did it? for appointment and that was the view of the selection Nick Herbert: No, and I think that is really important panel as well. to say that. We appointed or indicated that we wished Tom Winsor to be appointed, the person who we regarded as the strongest candidate for the job and the Q8 Chair: So they had come to that view? challenges that the modern Inspectorate will face. In Nick Herbert: They had come to the view that there doing so of course we were aware that there was were three—what they call in the jargon—appointable something of a campaign being run against Tom candidates who they put forward to us. They identified Winsor, one that had become, in my view, completely Tom Winsor as the strongest of the three. So that was unacceptably personal against him. Indeed, the Police their view. We reached the same conclusion. I think Federation had chosen to name Tom Winsor as being by definition the candidate that is our preferred a shortlisted candidate. They were the ones who first candidate we regard as the strongest candidate. I also revealed that publicly in a letter to MPs. I didn’t think said that I thought it was a very strong field and that was a proper thing to do; they did it without identifying that someone is the strongest candidate for asking him. So there was a campaign running. In a particular job is not to denigrate other people who essence that is a campaign that is about objecting to might have been applicants, as has been taken by proposed reforms of pay and conditions; reforms that, others. Not at all, it is simply to state the obvious, by the way, are broadly supported by the Association which is that we thought he was, and think he is, the of Chief Police Officers. The question for us is do we best person for the job. not appoint the person we regard in this process as the strongest candidate simply because a campaign is Q9 Chair: The other two were police officers? being run against him, because we are aware of that Nick Herbert: The other two were police officers, but and therefore effectively reward that campaign that that is all I am going to say about the individuals has in part, in my view, been quite disgraceful. We because I think it is improper for me to do anything took the view that it was proper to appoint the that might identify particular candidates. They have strongest candidate, the person we believed would do not chosen to be identified, they have not authorised the best possible job for British policing, but it was in me to identify them, and I think it is a confidential no way intended to be any kind of reproach or an process where people are entitled to make an appointment made for the sake of it, for the sake of application without being publicly identified and I being antagonistic; rather the reverse. think it would be wrong for me to do so. Q14 Chair: So even if the panel had come back to Q10 Chair: The names have already been in the you and said, “We don’t think he’s the strongest press. Of course you do not want to tell us, but the candidate”, you would still have appointed him? Home Secretary— Nick Herbert: That is a hypothetical question, but it Nick Herbert: Yes, but I will not confirm any names, was always open to us to disagree with their selection and you will understand why. That is not because I of the strongest candidate. They said three were cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [06-08-2012 13:08] Job: 022254 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/022254/022254_w002a_grace_B - 120720 White & Case.xml

Home Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 3

26 June 2012 Rt Hon Nick Herbert MP appointable, but it would have been perfectly proper Nick Herbert: I will shortly be updating Parliament for us to have reached a different conclusion of those on this matter, but we will shortly be going out to three, or indeed rejected all of them. In the past, as recruit— you know, that position has happened. But in this case we did agree with the view of the selection panel, and Q18 Chair: Shortly meaning? Could we have a I thought it was important to report that. more— Nick Herbert: Really quite soon we will be going Q15 Alun Michael: Given that it seems to be out— generally known that at least two of the shortlisted candidates are highly respected Chief Constables— Q19 Chair: Like tomorrow? and I stress highly respected, so it is not just that they Nick Herbert: We will be going out publicly to recruit are Chief Constables—why did you go for a non the new proposed chair of the professional body, who policeman? Would you agree that that might be will be an independent figure. appropriate once the head of the new professional body is in place and therefore able to provide that Q20 Chair: So not a police officer? professional advice? But is the timing not rather odd Nick Herbert: No, but then the chief executive, we when the head, and even the existence, of the have already stated publicly, of the new professional professional body has not been established and had a body will be a senior officer. time to bed in? Nick Herbert: I don’t accept that because the Q21 Chair: So the chair will not, but the chief professional body will be up and running by the end executive will? of this year and the new Chief Inspector of Nick Herbert: The chairman will not be; the chief Constabulary, if appointed as we expect and hope, will executive will be. Half of the membership of the be in place shortly before that. So there will be professional body will be from the profession of relatively little time in the interim. policing, the other half will not be, they will be independents or Police and Crime Commissioners. So Q16 Alun Michael: But it will take time to bed in, there will be a balance in the governance board of the will it not? new professional body. But the professional body will Nick Herbert: Well, it will take time for the new Chief be there to offer advice about policing to the Home Inspector of Constabulary to find his feet and of Secretary and to others. course it is a new professional body. But I think that Chair: I think this Committee would very much like it was right to make the strongest possible to see those plans—obviously you are going to tell appointment, to bear in mind that, as I said publicly them to Parliament—we are the relevant Committee, about this appointment, it is important that the as soon as possible. Inspectorate is completely independent of Nick Herbert: Yes, we will update Parliament in the Government and the police service. It has an evolving normal way as soon as possible, and then I am very role where it has demonstrated its independence. I happy to come and answer further questions about that would like to pay as strong as possible tribute to Sir professional body to you at the appropriate moment Denis O’Connor for the leadership that he has shown should you ask. as Chief Inspector of Constabulary, a highly respected Chair: Excellent. individual. There was an opportunity to build on that, and it seemed to me it was important that we Q22 Mr Winnick: You referred earlier on, Minister, appointed somebody as Chief Inspector of to what you described as a disgraceful campaign Constabulary who would also be able to operate in the against Mr Winsor. Why do you say a disgraceful campaign? new landscape with Police and Crime Commissioners, Nick Herbert: I understand police officers that are who themselves will have a mandate following their concerned about proposed reforms of pay and election on 15 November and who will be big figures conditions are absolutely entitled to make their views in their local area. They need to know that if either known about the proposals of Mr Winsor’s they call the Inspectorate in or if the Inspectorate independent review, and there is a formal negotiation comes in and maybe say unpalatable things about their process about that. The Government will pay attention force and effectively therefore about their record, that to those legitimately expressed views as we should. Inspectorate is fearless and independent. I think But there was a campaign being run that calls itself ensuring that the Inspectorate continues to be, as it the anti-Winsor network, which went far further in has evolved to become under Sir Denis O’Connor, the vilifying Mr Winsor, in calling into question his fearless champion of the public interest in securing independence and therefore his integrity as the efficient and effective policing is very important. The independent reviewer in a way that I regard as being professional body will be set up and will be able to completely improper. His review, after all, was offer professional advice to the Home Secretary and advised by a former senior Chief Constable in to others as a service-led body— questioning the business links that it was alleged he had, which would have compromised his independent Q17 Chair: Since Mr Michael has raised this, it is report, which in my view was a nonsensical now June and you want this body up and running by suggestion. So I was just making the point that I think December, when will you be appointing the new head everybody knows that there was a very aggressive of the professional body? campaign being run by what I regard, I think, as a cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [06-08-2012 13:08] Job: 022254 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/022254/022254_w002a_grace_B - 120720 White & Case.xml

Ev 4 Home Affairs Committee: Evidence

26 June 2012 Rt Hon Nick Herbert MP minority of police officers that was neither fair nor himself. I think that is a fundamental problem that we sensible. I don’t think it was appropriate for them to have. There has been a lot of press comments about have sought to have named his candidacy ahead of the who the likely people to be on the shortlist were and final selection, which I think was a clear attempt to many of them are quite well known to this Committee try to prevent him from being appointed. and seemed very impressive. One of them I have had a fairly public disagreement with, but I still consider Q23 Mr Winnick: But, Minister, you do not him fairly impressive. challenge the right in a free society for any group of Firstly, can I just ask, you say that it was a very strong people to rebut or strongly criticise a report? It can go field but also that your advisory committee said that to extremes, which no one would justify, but surely it only three of the candidates were even appointable. is perfectly legitimate? Can you just explain what you mean and why so many Nick Herbert: Like you, Mr Winnick, I am a of the other people—how many did apply on the champion, as I am sure we all are, of free speech and longlist? Why were they not appointable at all? the ability for people to make their views known, and Nick Herbert: Twelve people made formal application it is important that police officers know that the and the selection committee then shortlisted five for Government is paying attention to legitimately interview by them. They then interviewed those five expressed views that they may have about proposed and considered that three of those were appointable changes to pay and conditions. But there is a section and the Home Secretary and I together then of policing that has gone further than that, that has interviewed that final three, of which Tom Winsor was been personal in its campaign, that has used language one. In my view, there were some impressive names that is inappropriate, that has sought to question the among the 12 and it was a strong field. The final three integrity of an individual in an improper way, and I was very strong field, of which we regarded Tom stand by what I said, I believe that campaign was and Winsor as the strongest. is disgraceful. Q27 Dr Huppert: Of the nine who then weren’t Q24 Mr Winnick: Can I ask you this, Minister: if appointable, presumably some of them had non-police the review that was carried out by Mr Winsor had backgrounds. Can you give us a sense of what sort of not have been approved by the Government—which careers those non-police people might have had, obviously has been approved, enthusiastically roughly? approved—would one be right in saying there would Nick Herbert: There was a mix; there were those that be great reluctance to appoint him to the position of were not involved directly in policing as serving or Chief Inspector of Constabulary? former chief police officers, there were also those who Nick Herbert: That is a hypothetical. But let us had experience in Inspectorates, for instance—so there suppose that as independent reviewer the review had were people who had experience that was considered come up with a whole list of things that were ruled as relevant enough that five of them were shortlisted for completely out of court both by the Government and interview, that either their qualities and/or their by senior police officers, I think that might have made experience was considered by the selection panel it very hard, whatever the merits of that individual, to sufficient to have shortlisted them, but there was have then have appointed that individual. broadly a balance of the 12 that applied between those that were from the police service or were formerly of Q25 Mr Winnick: So you were influenced to a large the police service and those that were not. I am just extent, were you not, by the review that, as I say, was reticent about doing anything that, by being drawn enthusiastically approved? further, would start to identify particular individuals. Nick Herbert: No, I was answering the question. Dr Huppert: I understand. It is a shame; it would be Certainly the fact that Tom Winsor had acquired the interesting to— experience he did over a period of time in conducting this review, and the fact that both we and the Q28 Chair: Can I just say, based on what you said I Association of Chief Police Officers regard the do not know who you are talking about, so do not principles of his proposals—although the detail is worry about that. subject to negotiation, formal negotiation—as being Nick Herbert: That is mission accomplished as far as broadly right, of course that was relevant. Had he I am concerned. come up with a set of proposals that, as I say, we collectively regarded as being out of court it is Q29 Dr Huppert: I absolutely understand that and it unlikely we would have thought he was the right would be interesting to have a sense about the non person to be taking a senior position in which the police candidates because it is such a new choice. Just reform of policing is clearly a consideration. on regular monitoring-type figures, how many of the Mr Winnick: That is a very frank answer; thank you candidates were women and how many of those were very much. shortlisted interviewed, and the same for ethnic minorities? Did you look at diversity issues at all? Q26 Dr Huppert: Minister, one of the problems we Nick Herbert: Of the 12 that applied a third of them have is the case you have essentially been making is were women and there was one BME candidate. that of the people who applied in this very strong field Mr Winsor was the best candidate. But of course we Q30 Chair: Of the three? could only judge, because we don’t know who was on Nick Herbert: I am not going to be drawn because the short list, based on Mr Winsor compared to that would, given the nature of the senior ranks of cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [06-08-2012 13:08] Job: 022254 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/022254/022254_w002a_grace_B - 120720 White & Case.xml

Home Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 5

26 June 2012 Rt Hon Nick Herbert MP policing, identify those individuals. I should point out setting prices in policing in the same way as an that in relation to Sir Denis’ appointment when he was economic regulator might be. But I understand what appointed Chief Inspector of Constabulary, there were Sir Denis means by that. He is trying to express the only two applications. view that this is not a position that is any longer about having quiet words in people’s ears or fixing things Q31 Mr Clappison: Members of the public would behind the scenes. It is about guarding the public understandably want the best person for the job as far interest, revealing what has happening. Lifting up the as this is concerned. Can you make it absolutely clear lid and making sure that we as parliamentarians, the in the light of the question that was asked, I think it Government, the public, the Police and Crime was implicit in your answer, the three who were put Commissioners, know what is going on and having forward to you as being appointable, the appointable that informed professional view of the truth about decision was that of the selection committee on their policing in a monopoly service. I think that is what own? he means. Nick Herbert: Yes. Q35 Chair: Thank you. The preferred candidate is Q32 Mr Clappison: Can I ask you, looking at the outside, so if we could have briefer answers, it would whole of Mr Winsor’s career, his candidacy and his be very helpful. experience, are you satisfied that he has the Nick Herbert: Sorry. independence and the effectiveness in order to take Chair: No, it is not your fault; it is fascinating stuff, into account and reflect the public interest, and also but it is just that we need to try to move on. the legitimate interest of the police, looking at his whole career? Q36 Bridget Phillipson: Minister, you stressed the Nick Herbert: Yes, completely satisfied. I think if you importance of independence of this appointment, can look back over Tom Winsor’s career as rail regulator, I ask therefore why independence is not one of the that period was marred by what at times was a qualities referred to in the person specification? ferocious independence of the Government of the day, Nick Herbert: I think, without looking over it again, which was the previous Government, who appointed it will have been absolutely implicit in the role that him. He was fearless. Anybody who was following the Inspectorate must be independent both of the transport policy at the time knows that he was willing service and of Government, and that is the whole basis to speak out and, of course, views differ depending on on which the governance of the Inspectorate has been which side of the argument you might have been on changed and why it now reports to Parliament rather transport policy, but he always regarded it as his role than the Government. to be independent of Government and indeed of the rail operators and be willing to say what he thought Q37 Bridget Phillipson: Did Ministers suggest to the was right in the interests of the public, which was his recruitment agency that they approach Mr Winsor job. I think we need the same qualities in the Chief regarding applying for the job, or did Ministers Inspector of Constabulary. directly speak to Mr Winsor about applying? Nick Herbert: No, Mr Winsor, I understand, was Q33 Mr Clappison: You would expect him to act in approached by the headhunter, Saxton Bampfylde, and the same independent and effective way, speaking on they went out to test interest among a large number the behalf of the police themselves where necessary? of people, including police officers serving, former Nick Herbert: Yes, I think what should be at the front police officers and others. I think the numbers of of the Inspectorate’s mind is the public interest not the people they went out to was about 100, so quite a producer interest, but if it is necessary for the large number of people. Mr Winsor was one of them, Inspector of Constabulary to say that something is and that was the form of approach that was made to damaging to policing, that is a consequence, for him. instance, of Government policy or might in the future be as a consequence of something that a police and Q38 Bridget Phillipson: The job advert says that the crime commissioner has done, then it is important that candidate should have extensive understanding in the Inspectorate should feel able to say, “This is what operational policing. Can you explain how in your is happening”. I think it is revealing the truth. I think view Mr Winsor fits the bill in that regard? it is doing what I have sometimes described, and I Nick Herbert: I think because of the work that Tom know Sir Denis has, of shining a light on policing, Winsor has done in the last year and a half with his revealing what is happening, providing that independent review of policing, on which he has put information to the public and those who hold policing in a very great deal of time—rather more than I think to account, and to the service itself. That is so the Government could legitimately have expected of important. Sir Denis himself has sometimes used the somebody who was conducting that independent description of regulator to describe what he has review—and has produced a very weighty and regarded as the evolving position of the Chief evidenced report because of the very large number of Inspector or the Inspectorate as a whole. meetings that he had as he sought to gain evidence. I think that that has given Mr Winsor an understanding Q34 Chair: So you are happy with the use of that of policing that other candidates, who may have been term? You want to see him as a regulator? independent candidates, may not have had, because Nick Herbert: I don’t think it is entirely accurate to the combination of his experience as a former describe the role as regulator because the HMIC is not regulator and understanding the role that he had there, cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [06-08-2012 13:08] Job: 022254 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/022254/022254_w002a_grace_B - 120720 White & Case.xml

Ev 6 Home Affairs Committee: Evidence

26 June 2012 Rt Hon Nick Herbert MP combined with the experience that he had gained as professional body itself will be able to advise the the independent reviewer of policing was, I think, a Government and the Home Secretary as necessary on formidable combination. professional aspects of policing, and of course individual Chief Constables can advise the Home Q39 Bridget Phillipson: A year and a half does not Secretary, and do, on operational matters. The Home Secretary has no shortage of advice from senior police seem like a great deal of time. Is it you feel that his officers on operational matters. What is important is previous experience is more important than that year that there is a separate body that is fearless and that and a half? is willing to say what is going on in policing in a way Nick Herbert: For the nature of the job of that might sometimes be uncomfortable for Inspectorate, some of the commentary that informally Government, for Police and Crime Commissioners, was around this appointment, one might have thought and for the service. None of them should believe they that we were appointing someone to be Britain’s own that body, because they do not. senior police officer. We were not. We were appointing somebody to the Inspectorate whose job it Q42 Michael Ellis: Thank you, Minister. Do you is to reveal what is happening in policing, and I think think Tom Winsor represents that fearless Mr Winsor has the right qualities for that job. Of independence? course he will be supported by his fellow HMIs, two Nick Herbert: Yes, I think he does. of whom are former police officers. So there will be a mix in the Inspectorate, as there has been in recent Q43 Michael Ellis: There are still a lot of chief years, because the Inspectorate has been mix of officers in the team presumably within the civilian and former police officer appointments for a Inspectorate? few years now. Currently there are two independent Nick Herbert: Yes, two out of the five are former inspectors. police officers.

Q40 Michael Ellis: Minister, could you set out just Q44 Lorraine Fullbrook: Minister, I would like to how see the role of Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of follow on from that question; in essence is it the Constabulary changing if Mr Winsor takes up the post Government’s proposal that the current control of Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector should split between the from Sir Denis O’Connor? new role of HMIC and the head of the new police Nick Herbert: I think it is a continuing evolution, as professional body? I have already described. I think what particularly Nick Herbert: No, I don’t think that is quite right changes about this role now that I have already because I do not believe, as I have just said, that the alluded to is the advent of Police and Crime Chief Inspector of Constabulary has been, as is Commissioners in November, because the sometimes described—and by the way it is not written Inspectorate is going to have to work with them as in any of the legislation, the advisor to the Home well as with the service, and those Police and Crime Secretary on policing matters. I think already under Commissioners will have responsibility for holding Sir Denis O’Connor the Inspectorate was moving to a local policing to account. more independent stance. When, for instance, in the We have moved the Inspectorate from being a body next few weeks the Inspectorate updates Parliament that was engaged partly in performance management and the public on its value for money profile saying of policing to a body that was revealing what was how police forces are spending their money, some of going on in policing, recognising that the centre had those messages are not necessarily going to be become overbearing in seeking to manage the comfortable either to the service or the Government. performance of local forces. It will be for Police and The Inspectorate is able to do that precisely because Crime Commissioners to hold forces to account on it is separate from the Government and is not there to the basis of the information that has been revealed, reflect or endorse Government policy. So I would not including by the Inspectorate. characterise this appointment as making a break or a change. I think it is the continuing evolution of the Inspectorate as an independent body. Q41 Michael Ellis: Do you see the role changing in as much as the introduction of Police and Crime Q45 Lorraine Fullbrook: Can you confirm that the Commissioners, in that those Police and Crime head of the new police professional body will be a Commissioners now will have a greater responsibility senior police officer, a serving senior police officer? for overseeing local forces and the newly appointed Nick Herbert: Yes, we have undertaken that the head Chief Inspector of Constabulary will have a slightly of the new professional body, that body will be led different role? and owned by the service itself when it is set up in its Nick Herbert: Yes, I think that is true because I think final form, will be a senior police officer. it is a continuing evolution where the Inspectorate has become more independent of Government and indeed Q46 Lorraine Fullbrook: Serving or not? of the police service. So I think it is a misnomer, a Nick Herbert: Once they are appointed to that body misunderstanding, to believe that the Chief Inspector’s they can’t serve as a police officer but they will have sole job is to be the professional advisor of policing been a senior police officer. They, and their colleagues to the Home Secretary. I do not believe that has been in the professional body, will be able to give advice the Chief Inspector’s job for some time now and the on professional policing matters. There were a large cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [06-08-2012 13:08] Job: 022254 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/022254/022254_w002a_grace_B - 120720 White & Case.xml

Home Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 7

26 June 2012 Rt Hon Nick Herbert MP number of the so-called business areas that are I don’t accept the characterisation that you had about currently under the auspices of ACPO. So, for the three roles. Advice can be provided to the Home instance, there might be one on firearms policy. These Secretary by a range of people and that is already business areas will essentially move into the new happening. So far as the mentoring is concerned, there professional body, and in each of those areas there will be senior police officers within the Inspectorate will be police officers who will be able to give who can continue to provide that kind of advice to professional advice about those areas of policy to the Chief Constables should they seek it. That does not Home Secretary and others. necessarily have to come from the Chief Inspector of Lorraine Fullbrook: Thank you. Constabulary, and there will be the professional body that is able to provide such advice but we have moved Q47 Dr Huppert: Minister, how important do you away, and we needed to move away, from the idea think it is that the Chief Inspector can command the that the Inspectorate, as it was in the past, was the respect of the rank and file of police? body that quietly fixed things behind the scenes where Nick Herbert: I think it is very important that this one former Chief Constable could have a word with individual commands the respect of the police service another serving Chief Constable and say, “Look, this as a whole, of course. They should know that that is how I would do things”, towards a body that was individual is robust and independent. That is not the transparent in the way it was operating that was same thing as saying that that individual should be revealing what is happening in policing and being the seen to agree with the rank and file on all matters, or fearless guardian of the public interest. As I said, I even be liked by the rank and file. That is not the think an evolution was already happening. But as we purpose of the Chief Inspector. The Chief Inspector set up the professional body I think it will become must be the fearless guardian of the public interest. clear that that body itself will be the place where the That is not always the same as the producer interest, knowledge about professional policing practice and particularly in a monopoly public service. the responsibility for training and development will rest and that will be owned and led by the service Q48 Dr Huppert: You are absolutely right that the itself. Chief Inspector’s role is not to agree with everybody, but do you accept that there is a concern among many Q50 Nicola Blackwood: Is this appointment more to members of the rank and file about this appointment make it clear that inspection and so forth lies within and that there will be, if the appointment goes ahead, the Inspectorate, advice lies within the professional a lot of bridge-building to be done to get that respect body and the two should be separate for very good back? reasons? Nick Herbert: I think that is something that you, no Nick Herbert: I don’t think that you can completely doubt, will want to ask Mr Winsor, and I am sure that separate these things because there will be times when he will seek to engage with all sections of the police the Inspectorate is providing advice to the Home service as he sought to do in his independent review. Secretary on certain matters, as it does at the moment. But the decisions about the stance towards Mr Winsor The Home Secretary receives a range of advice from are for those, some of those who have tried to run an different individuals from the Inspectorate but also orchestrated campaign, and I think they should reflect from senior police officers, either individually or upon whether that has been productive or sensible and collectively and that will continue. So I don’t think should move forward on a different stance. you can draw a line and say that the Inspectorate will Chair: Minister, we have the message that you never provide advice to the Home Secretary. What it disagree and you think this is an awful campaign. You will not be is alongside as the private advisor to the have made that very clear, and thank you for doing Home Secretary aligned with Government and aligned that. with Government policy. If it provides advice it will provide advice as the independent body that is Q49 Nicola Blackwood: You have emphasised Mr inspecting policing in the public interest, telling the Winsor’s record for ferocious independence and the Home Secretary what is going on or the Home need for the Chief Inspector to be both independent Secretary may ask that specific reports are undertaken and effective in this role. I think that one of the on certain areas, and the Inspectorate will agree to do problems that seems to be emerging is this that, as it has recently on issues such as undercover evolutionary change in the role of the Inspectorate. It policing or corruption in policing and so on, where not only inspects the 41 forces; it also has the role that advice was necessary. So advice in the broadest for advising the Home Secretary and as a professional sense will continue to be given. mentor to Chief Constables. Some of the evidence that we have received from the representative bodies is Q51 Nicola Blackwood: But a Chief Constable who that they want to clarification of which roles are going has a difficult or complicated problem in their force to be fulfilled and whether someone who has not had area should, in your view, go to a professional body previous experience as a Chief Constable actually can and not to the Inspectorate? fulfil all three roles. Do you think it is necessary to Nick Herbert: You might choose to go to one of the clarify exactly what the Inspectorate is doing going other inspectors in HMI because two of them are forward, and exactly how that will sit next to the new former Chief Constables, so they might go to that representative bodies? source, they might go to a peer, or they might go to Nick Herbert: I am hoping to do that now, and we the professional body. It would be a matter for them. will be saying more about the professional body, but But it has never been a part of the formal remit of the cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [06-08-2012 13:08] Job: 022254 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/022254/022254_w002a_grace_B - 120720 White & Case.xml

Ev 8 Home Affairs Committee: Evidence

26 June 2012 Rt Hon Nick Herbert MP

Inspectorate of constabulary that they should provide Q56 Mark Reckless: Will that range include that counselling service for Chief Constables. inspecting the commissioners and the commissioner’s office in the way the Inspectorate has recently Q52 Chair: Just on one point raised by Paul inspected police authorities? McKeever in the letter to you when he raised the issue Nick Herbert: That I think I am going to have to get of section 85 of the Police Reform and Social back to you about as to what the legislation says. Responsibility Act, which allows the Secretary of Intuitively, I would suggest that we cannot exempt State to specify matters to which the Inspectorate that range of functions that may be conducted by should have regard: you do not think that this police authorities themselves from inspection, but I compromises the independence of the Inspectorate, would need to be reminded of what the legislation giving the Secretary of State the power to do this? said about it. Nick Herbert: No, and we debated this during the course of that legislation. That would allow the Q57 Mark Reckless: Finally, could I ask, do you see Secretary of State to draw attention to particular issues the primary role of the Chief Inspector being to spread of public concern that the Secretary of State thinks good practice within policing, or to challenge the way needs— policing is done more generally? Nick Herbert: I think it is challenge. I think good Q53 Chair: But not tell them how to do their job, practice should be spread by the professional body as basically? it seeks to enhance the professionalism in policing. Of Nick Herbert: No, but not tell them how to do their course, the Inspectorate could draw attention to good job. practice, but its role is not there to manage police forces or to performance manage them. Its principal Chair: Thank you, that clears that up. role, it seems to me, is to reveal what is happening, to lift the lid on policing and provide the information Q54 Mark Reckless: Minister, how much time do that the public, politicians, either local or national, you envisage the Inspectorate spending working for need and the service itself needs to be able to ensure the 41 Police and Crime Commissioners as opposed that they are delivering efficient and effective to the Home Secretary? policing, to translate for the public what is often very Nick Herbert: I think that is impossible to say but I technical stuff in a way that it is accessible so that the think part of the way that the landscape is changing is public themselves can understand the performance of that the Inspectorate is going to have to, in your their police force and compare it with others, and words, work with those Police and Crime know that there is an independent body telling them Commissioners as well as with the Home Secretary, the truth about that performance. You can do that at because they are the ones who are holding forces to the moment through the police.uk site with account locally. So it is going to have to have a information that is provided by the Inspectorate. That relationship with them. comparative information is not welcomed very often by the police service itself. It is very important that Q55 Mark Reckless: Working for them, will it be the body feels sufficiently independent and robust that helping them to hold the force to account rather than it is willing to face down such challenge, either by helping— Chief Constables or in future by Police and Crime Nick Herbert: Formally the Inspectorate can be called Commissioners, who really don’t like it. in by Police and Crime Commissioners under the legislation, the Inspectorate may choose to go in if Q58 Chair: We are coming to the end of this session there are issues of particular concern, and in the now, Minister, and thank you for answering questions ordinary course of inspecting the Inspectorate will so far. You have been very clear that you are very have a relationship with forces and with Police and upset by the campaign against Mr Winsor, both in Crime Commissioners, so it could be on the range of respect of his previous report and his appointment, activity they will have that relationship. The point and you have made this very, very clear to the being that they are not there to work for Police and Committee. Some may think that his appointment may Crime Commissioners, there will be times when the be an act of defiance by the Government because of Police and Crime Commissioner is relying on the this campaign, “We have decided to appoint as the Inspectorate to provide particular advice, and there are Chief Inspector someone who is basically going to put formal scenarios, for instance, in relation to advice on you all in your place”. the dismissal of a Chief Constable where the Nick Herbert: No, absolutely not. I have already Inspectorate is formally engaged under the legislation. made clear that we have put forward Tom Winsor for There will be other times where I think the appointment because we thought that he was the Inspectorate is saying things that will be unpalatable strongest candidate in a strong field, and the best to Police and Crime Commissioners because they will possible person for the job as the Inspectorate is be saying, “Look, this aspect of force performance is evolving. not satisfactory”, or is of concern. Police and Crime Chair: But it is going to be a very tough— Commissioners will not necessarily like that and that Nick Herbert: But I make clear that it would not have is why it is important that the Inspectorate is seen to been right not to have appointed the person we be independent of them, of Government, but also of thought was the best person simply because there was the service itself. a disgraceful organised campaign against that cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [06-08-2012 13:08] Job: 022254 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/022254/022254_w002a_grace_B - 120720 White & Case.xml

Home Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 9

26 June 2012 Rt Hon Nick Herbert MP individual. The motive of that campaign was to resist efficient and effective policing. I think it is part of an reforms of pay and conditions that were not liked. overall approach that is about ensuring that we have the strongest possible police service, fit for today’s Q59 Chair: I understand that, but what would you challenges, which are growing, despite the fact that say to Mr Tully, who says that his 31,000 members there is less resource available for policing than there have no confidence in Mr Winsor or his was. “Revolution” isn’t a very conservative word, so independence? As the Policing Minister, you I am not sure that I would agree with that description, presumably now want all these people to get on but yes, this has been a serious and challenging together, what would you say to Mr Tully? agenda of reform, but I think it is worth me repeating Nick Herbert: Well, what I have urged, and did at the and pointing out that the proposed reform of pay and Police Federation conference that I attended, and have conditions and the broad thrust of the Winsor 2 done subsequently, is that the Police Federation and proposals are broadly supported by the Association of others engage sensibly in the negotiation process on Chief Police Officers and by Chief Constables, which the issues and stop playing the man rather than ball. is a point that is sometimes missed when it is noted That is what they have to do. I can’t be responsible that there are some sections of policing that dislike for their chosen behaviour, but it has been neither some of those proposed reforms. constructive nor productive so far as they are concerned. It is not the right way to behave; it is not Q61 Chair: Going to your own words, you do not the right way for police officers to behave. I don’t like the word “revolution”, but your words in The believe it reflects overall the mainstream view of Times on Saturday, when you said your favourite policing, and of course there must be a more police officer was Inspector Morse rather than Dixon constructive stance on which we go forward, but that of Dock Green, what would he make of all this, is about the separate matter of the reform of pay and Inspector Morse? What would the ordinary police conditions that is now being taken forward, apart from officer on the street make of all these massive changes Mr Winsor. He has made his report. That report that are occurring? How will the public see all this? stands. It now goes into the formal negotiation Nick Herbert: I think that was one of those questions process. He is not a part of that any more. that you might describe as a Hobson’s choice and so on, so I am not sure that that would be to describe to Q60 Chair: Yes, but in terms of the new landscape my favourite police officer. But I am sure that of policing, which you have been presiding over, you Inspector Morse, along with many other police have been driving this—the abolition of SOCA, the officers, would see the value in having an Inspectorate creation of the National Crime Agency—this is a of Policing that didn’t always say things that were revolution in policing, and your legacy is secure. comfortable, but did say things that were true, and Whatever job you do next, policing will never be the was fearless and was willing to act in that independent same again in terms of the structures of policing. This manner. I think in the end that people will see the Committee has sat here in awe of the number of value in having such an independent figure for what changes that have been made. We are trying to keep is after all a monopoly service. up with what is going on. But do you think in respect of that new landscape, the arrival of someone who has Q62 Chair: So whatever the Committee decides, he no operational experience of policing, albeit the fact would get the Morse vote, you think? that he has done a very detailed report over two years, Nick Herbert: I have been asked a number of is going to help you achieve what you want to hypothetical questions. That is, clearly for all sorts of achieve? reasons, completely hypothetical. Nick Herbert: Yes. I am convinced that Tom Winsor Chair: Minister, thank you very much. We are most is the right person for this job and for the changing grateful. Thank you so much for coming in today. role of the Inspectorate, and that his appointment Thank you. Could we call in Mr Tom Winsor. would help to protect the public interest in securing

Examination of Witness

Witness: Tom Winsor, preferred candidate for HM Chief Inspector of Constabulary, currently a partner of White & Case LLP, London, gave evidence.

Q63 Chair: Mr Winsor, good afternoon. My Commissioner for South Wales. The rest of the apologies for keeping you waiting so long. I am afraid Committee’s interests are declared in the Register of we had the Minister in and we were having a series Members’ Interests. Yes. of questions to him. Thank you very much for coming Mark Reckless: Can I also declare that I was a before the Committee today, and congratulations on member of the Kent Police Authority until May last being the Home Secretary’s preferred candidate for year, and I was also involved in some railway-related this post. public law work at Herbert Smith. Tom Winsor: Thank you. Chair: Thank you, Mr Reckless. I just want to remind Chair: Can I just repeat a declaration of interest that you of an article that you wrote on 3 June 2009, when was made before you came into this room, and that is you said, “Select Committees of the House frequently that Mr Michael is a candidate for Police and Crime fail to exercise effective scrutiny over the policies and cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [06-08-2012 13:08] Job: 022254 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/022254/022254_w002a_grace_B - 120720 White & Case.xml

Ev 10 Home Affairs Committee: Evidence

26 June 2012 Tom Winsor behaviour of powerful, independent institutions and Act 1993 to provide advice to Ministers as well as to that witnesses should need to prepare for demanding discharge the executive functions of the Regulatory scrutiny. Parliament is the supreme authority. Holding Authority. One of the greatest advantages in the executive and the powerful expertly and efficiently management is to have the ability, and I did this, to to account must be significantly enhanced”. So I just surround yourself with people of very high ability, of remind you of what you said in The Guardian in 2009. greater intelligence than yourself and very None of the questions that we put to you today are in considerable experience. any way of a personal nature against you individually; it is our job to robustly scrutinise your candidacy. Q65 Chair: So you would expect in your role to seek Tom Winsor: Of course, and, when I wrote that the advice of other senior officers, people like Sir article, I had no experience of the Home Affairs Edward Crew, who I think advised you on the police Committee. and pay report. Is that what you are telling this Chair: Indeed. Can I start by asking you a general Committee? You may not have that operational question? You are a highly successful lawyer; you experience, but you will make it your job to go out have been a highly successful rail regulator. You have and find people who do have that expertise? written a report that has taken you two years. You Tom Winsor: HMIC has existed in one form or have been the subject obviously of a lot of public another for 156 years. It has a very considerable controversy. Why on earth would you want to give up resource of very able people. It is not by any stretch a job with a very big law firm with work that you of the imagination a new organisation. It also has a clearly enjoy and are qualified to do to take on this tradition of bringing in specialist skills through its job as Inspector of Constabulary? associates scheme, which was established by Sir Tom Winsor: Public service, the same reason for Denis O’Connor quite recently, and there is a rich mix motivating Members of this Committee. I believe that of professional expertise, both policing background I can do this job well. I believe that the role of Chief and non-policing background, available to HMIC. Of Inspector of Constabulary would benefit from a new course there is also the very significant advantage of perspective to the quasi-regulation of a hugely the other four HMIs, two of whom are former senior important public service. There is no higher calling police officers and two of whom are not. than the discharge of the duty to protect your fellow citizens. That is what the police do, and ensuring that Q66 Chair: Which are those? Which are the two who that is done the most effectively and efficiently is, I are former senior officers? think, an essential role. I was an economic regulator Tom Winsor: Mr Baker and Mr Otter. for five years, dealing with highly complex, high- value, very controversial issues, including on safety- Q67 Chair: Yes. So you would be going to them to critical issues, and I believe that that experience seek their advice on this? equips me in a way that perhaps, say, a police officer Tom Winsor: I would like to adopt a collegiate candidate would not, and I would like to take a go approach to the operation of HMIC. I think that is the at it. way Sir Denis has done it, and I think he has done it with very considerable distinction. Q64 Chair: Do you think it is an advantage or disadvantage not to have an operational policing Q68 Chair: In terms of your report into pay and background? You are very conscious of the fact, I am conditions, how many days did you spend on that sure, that every single person who has held your post review? We know you did it for two years. Obviously prior to your preferred candidacy has been a senior you have been before this Committee before. police officer, so you will be the first. Is that an Tom Winsor: It was 18 months really. The Home advantage or a disadvantage, do you think? Secretary, when she invited me to do it, said it would Tom Winsor: It may very well be an advantage. The be 45 days over 9 months. It didn’t turn out quite like police pay review that I carried out over many months that. My time recording in my law firm requires me involved a very intensive examination, a process of to account for every six-minute unit of my day. evidence gathering, thorough analysis of issues Chair: Of course. relating to policing and revealed to me that there are Tom Winsor: I can tell you that I spent 3,307.2 hours many parallels between the world of policing and the on it over 349 days. world of the other regulated industries and activities, and I would like to show how those techniques and Q69 Chair: capabilities can be used in the field of policing. I do 349 days out of 18 months? not regard it as a material disadvantage not to have Tom Winsor: Yes. been a serving police officer. No one can be an expert in the entire field, a field as wide as policing. Not all Q70 Chair: Your law firm was billed for that work? Chief Police Officers have been detectives; not all Tom Winsor: No. Chief Police Officers have been public order specialists. They take advice from other people. Q71 Chair: Who paid you for that then? When I was appointed as rail regulator, I was not a Tom Winsor: I have not been paid anything for it. railway engineer, I was not a railway operating manager, I was not a specialist in corporate finance, Q72 Chair: So you were paid nothing for the Winsor and I was not a professional economist, and yet I had Review part 1 and 2? a statutory obligation under section 69 of the Railways Tom Winsor: Correct. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [06-08-2012 13:08] Job: 022254 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/022254/022254_w002a_grace_B - 120720 White & Case.xml

Home Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 11

26 June 2012 Tom Winsor

Q73 Chair: So why did you record the number of prospective appointment, mainly on two grounds: hours then? firstly, your independence, because they believe that Tom Winsor: Well, we have to account for our hours having conducted the two reviews that you would not whether it is chargeable or unchargeable. Law firms be an independent person to carry out this job, and do a lot of unchargeable work. secondly, that you have a lack of police experience. What would your answer be to those police officers? Q74 Chair: You basically had a sabbatical for 349 Tom Winsor: On independence, the narrow point is days, in one sense? that the role of HMIC in terms of the implementation, Tom Winsor: Yes, that is what they thought it was. It if that is what is decided, of my recommendations in did not feel like a holiday to me. relation to pay and conditions is slight, if not non- existent. The two are in separate camps. There is a Q75 Chair: Okay. Can you just tell us about your ministerial decision to be made after due process of views about people from outside the policing service the Police Negotiating Board and the Arbitration coming in? One of the issues that has confronted the Tribunal whether and how much of my Committee over a number of years are the number of recommendations should be implemented, and I police corruption cases that have come to the fore; the anticipate that HMIC will have little or no role in allegations of corruption. One of the things that is that respect. very odd has been the way in which one force The wider point on independence—and I have found investigates another force, and I am thinking it quite extraordinary that it has been suggested that I particularly about the Cleveland case, where of course would not be independent, because my record when I you had allegations of serious corruption in Cleveland was rail regulator was of quite steely independence. I and it was being investigated by another police force. was required to protect my independence through Would you see that as one of your priorities as the what Alistair Darling might call the fires of hell. I was Chief Inspector? threatened with primary legislation on the authority of Tom Winsor: HMIC has done work on integrity in the Prime Minister and the Chancellor to extinguish policing, as we know. I am not presently aware—I am my independence if I had the temerity to stand up to not in the job— their wholly improper and illegal confiscation of the Chair: No. assets of Railtrack’s shareholders, and I saw them Tom Winsor:—of any material shortcomings in the down. I protected my independence when Alistair practice of having a separate police force investigate Darling, when he was Transport Secretary, was allegations of corruption by another police force, but dissatisfied with my decision that the railway should I would take advice and form a view on it. have the largest financial settlement in its history, £22.2 billion. He was dissatisfied because that was my Q76 Chair: So you are not able to. Finally from me decision and not his. But I exercised my independence on diversity, I received anecdotal evidence that you in that way. Therefore, I am quite staggered that have suggested that the number of black and Asian people should suggest that I am not likely to be officers in the Metropolitan Police is influenced by the independent, and I might say that if the Home fact that they lowered their standards in order to Secretary—and I am sure this is not the case— appoint more black and Asian officers. Perhaps you expected that appointing me, if that is what she could clear this up now so we know exactly what you decides to do, would lead to the production of a meek did say on this point. and compliant regulator, then she is going to be Tom Winsor: I have no objective evidence on this, but disappointed. what I had been told by one former Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police and one senior member of the Q79 Lorraine Fullbrook: What about the second Police Federation was that the educational entrance issue that police officers have, which is the lack of requirements for police officers were lowered in order policing experience? to ensure that the rate of people coming in from ethnic Tom Winsor: I have discussed that a little bit with the minorities would be maintained or increased. I found Chairman. Clearly I have not been a serving police that astonishing, if true, and there has been some officer, although I have spent a lot of time looking controversy over whether it is or is not true. But in at policing, and I have learned a huge amount about my report, as you know, I made it clear in my view— policing, speaking to officers and police staff of every and these are part of my recommendations—that the rank all over the country. I mentioned that as rail only criterion for entry to the police force and regulator I was not a professional economist or a advancement within it should be merit, and merit has railway engineer, and I think it is notable that in the no distinctions in terms of colour, ethnic background, last Government’s Green Paper on policing in 2008 it sex or any other characteristic. said that HMIC should develop its skills base to include a stronger mix of professional skills outside Q77 Chair: So in the quoted comments, you were policing, and indeed, in the Macpherson Report on the just repeating what somebody else had said; you were murder of Stephen Lawrence, it was recommended not saying this is what you believed? that there should be a greater lay involvement in Tom Winsor: Correct. I was saying, “This is what I policing. have been told. Can it possibly be true?” But I do repeat the point that it is not essential for this role to have served as a police officer, and indeed, if Q78 Lorraine Fullbrook: Mr Winsor, many police it had been, then Parliament at some point since 1856 officers have expressed concern about your would have legislated in order to bring that about. The cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [06-08-2012 13:08] Job: 022254 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/022254/022254_w002a_grace_B - 120720 White & Case.xml

Ev 12 Home Affairs Committee: Evidence

26 June 2012 Tom Winsor policing legislation does not and has never required Q84 Mr Winnick: That answer of course would HMCIC or any HMI to be a police officer. Parliament reflect the views of the Committee, regardless of our could have legislated to change that. Parliament had political affiliations, but I am somewhat surprised that an opportunity only last year in the Police Reform and when you responded to the Chair about ethnic Social Responsibility Act to change the law, but it candidates and made the allegation, which you say chose not to do so, even though it did change the there is no evidence whatsoever, you did not add what law and established a statutory requirement that the you have just rightly said, but that is entirely up to Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police and every you in responding to questions. Chief Constable in the UK force must have held the I wonder if I could go on, Mr Winsor, about the office of constable in a UK force. It was also review which you have carried out on policing. You legislating for the constitutional position of HMIC, accept, of course, it is very controversial? therefore it would have been a very simple matter for Tom Winsor: Yes, so it appears. Parliament to choose to apply that condition to the Chief Inspector of Constabulary and other HMIs at Q85 Mr Winnick: Would you accept that many the same time as it applied it to Chief Constables. police officers believe that it was a hostile report Parliament chose not to do so. I think that is very which did not really reflect the situation as basing it telling. on the ground? Lorraine Fullbrook: Thank you. Tom Winsor: I have heard these allegations. I think one of the things that— Q80 Mr Winnick: Mr Winsor, you mentioned to the Chair that you heard that entry had been lowered in Q86 Chair: Sorry, Mr Winsor, they are more than order to get into the police force black and Asian allegations. The Committee has received officers. What evidence do you have for that? representations on this. They are not allegations, are Tom Winsor: I only have the oral evidence of the they? People have disagreed and said that you are word of a former Commissioner of the Metropolitan wrong. “Allegation” means that it needs to be proved. Police and a member of the Police Federation, an These are assertions made by people. officer. Tom Winsor: Okay, assertions or allegations, people are saying it was a hostile review. I do not accept it Q81 Mr Winnick: Don’t you think it would have was a hostile review at all. It was— been far better to have looked into it and seen if there had been any such lowering of standards? Q87 Mr Winnick: But you would not, would you? Tom Winsor: Yes, we did look into it, but we were Tom Winsor: Of course not. But you asked— unable to run it to ground. Mr Winnick: Yes, carry on. Okay. Tom Winsor:—me did I make a report which was Q82 Mr Winnick: So there is no hard evidence of hostile. There is no doubt that it has been received what is alleged? with hostility and very considerable criticism and one Tom Winsor: Not as far as I am aware. of the things that I have found most frustrating is that so many of the critics of the review within the police Q83 Mr Winnick: I see. So we have cleared that up. service have based their analysis of my Now, Mr Winsor, is it your view that there are enough recommendations not on what I said in my report, but minority police officers in the force, the Met and other what I am reported to have said in my report. For places, like the West Midlands? Are you satisfied that example, the former Home Secretary, Mr Johnson, on the numbers of non-whites is adequate? Any Questions? two or three weeks ago expressed in Tom Winsor: I am happy to answer to the question. I ferociously critical terms my insistence that policing am not sure that that is a matter of importance to should be a graduate-only profession. I did not say HMIC, but have no difficulty with the question. I that at all. I said policing should not be a graduate- think it is immensely important that as far as possible only profession. the police service should reflect the make-up of the When the march through London took place, 30,000 communities that they serve. The police service in this off-duty police officers, the television crews took country is not a force apart. Robert Peel said, “The some aside—I didn’t see the whole thing, but I saw public are the police; the police are the public”. The some of them—and these police officers were policing in this country springs from the communities criticising aspects of the report that were plainly not that are served. It used to be, as we all know, the present in the report. It does strike me as remarkable ancient obligation of every member of the community that police officers whose professional training and to pursue and apprehend those who violated the law instincts are to ignore hearsay and go to the primary and then the office of constable developed out of that, sources of evidence, when it came to my report too and that is why the roots of policing are always local, many of them have embraced hearsay and ignored the even though there is a very significant national and primary sources, an inversion of their professional international perspective these days. Therefore, for instincts and training. I only ask that the report, which police officers to come from all parts of the undoubtedly is controversial, is criticised for what it community I think is extremely important, and if there does contain, not for what it does not contain. were any doubt about that, I think that the inquiry into the murder of Stephen Lawrence and the subsequent Q88 Mr Winnick: Would it be right to say, Mr actions and developments in that case have shown that Winsor, that just as your report was received—as you in very stark relief. say, without any justification—in such a hostile way cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [06-08-2012 13:08] Job: 022254 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/022254/022254_w002a_grace_B - 120720 White & Case.xml

Home Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 13

26 June 2012 Tom Winsor by police officers or a large majority of police officers, very deeply of the cup of wisdom and experience it was warmly welcomed by the Government? which they offered to me. Now, that is— Tom Winsor: I don’t think it was warmly welcomed by the Government, and indeed, if it had been warmly Q90 Mr Clappison: Yes, on a slightly separate point, welcomed by the Government, then the Police you also spoke, and I was very heartened to hear this, Federation and others presumably would already have about your understanding of policing by consent and an application for judicial review of the Home the importance which you attach to it, the Robert Peel Secretary’s decision to prejudge a statutory model. That is something which we certainly, I negotiation and arbitration process that has not yet believe, have in Hertfordshire. Is it something which finished. you are going to regard as being a priority in your Chair: Thank you. I think we will move on. work in the future to ensure that that continues and Mr Winnick: The Minister did not prejudge it. prospers and the police and the public have a very Chair: Let us move on. Mr Clappison, and then we good relationship with each other? have a lot of questions to ask. Tom Winsor: Most certainly. I think that the British model of policing, of policing by consent, of unarmed Q89 Mr Clappison: Can I at this point return to the policing in our communities, in the close relationship question which was raised to you by the Chairman between the police and the communities from which and by my colleague, Mrs Fullbrook? It has also been they come and of which they are part, I think it is raised with me by serving police officers in the extremely important, and nothing must be done to Hertfordshire force, which is a very good force, I jettison or jeopardise that extremely precious part of should say, the question of operational experience. British policing. Now, it is true that in the appointments brief, which gave the specification for the appointment, that Q91 Michael Ellis: Mr Winsor, there has been some applications would be considered from candidates extraordinary and disgraceful behaviour in with a policing background and from other campaigning against you personally from some police professional backgrounds. However, it does go on to quarters, a personalised and rather histrionic assault say that, “Candidates can demonstrate an on you from some. Now, they say you, Mr Winsor, understanding of operational policing”, and that that are not fit to take this position because you simply do was required as essential. In a nutshell, how would not have the operational police experience, so I would you demonstrate you have an understanding of like to ask you about your role in the 18 months’ work operational policing? that you did on the pay and conditions report. You Tom Winsor: I did, in the course of my review, a very did not have operational police experience during that considerable amount of fieldwork with police officers report, did you find that you were able to surround and it was far more than has been alleged. I went out yourself with appropriate qualified and competent in the cold and the wet at night and during the day. I advisors who could assist in those areas where you spent New Year’s Eve 2010 until 4.00am in the might need some experience? morning in the freezing cold of Maidstone seeing the Tom Winsor: Yes. I was extremely ably assisted by policing of New Year’s Eve with police officers. I Sir Edward Crew, former Chief Constable of the West went out in the Manchester night-time economy with Midlands, who gave very generously of his 40 years’ police officers. I went on the river. I did the 5.00am experience, but also, as I mentioned to Mr Clappison, briefing with the Territorial Support Group in London detailed dealings with many other police officers, and a 6.00am drugs raid. I went on a firearms incident serving police officers and former police officers as at which an armed robbery in North London was well. So I had an embarrassment of riches when it foiled. I went on community policing in Oldham. I came to advice from people who had very significant spent time with kidnap and flying squad officers and capability. I spent a very considerable amount of time with traffic policing in Kent. So I saw a lot of it, but no, I am not Q92 Michael Ellis: You are confident you could do a serving police officer; I never have been, and I never the same thing again, as Chief Inspector of will be. Constabulary? I also received many detailed submissions including Tom Winsor: Most certainly. HMIC has a very from the Staff Association, the Police Federation, the significant resource in-house. It also has an associate Superintendent’s Association, also ACPO, the scheme, so specialists in particular fields who are in Association of Police Authorities, many—I think 50, police forces can be brought in to give short-term, or more than 50—detailed submissions, some of them high-value, intensive advice and assistance in these very high quality in relation to many aspects of matters. policing. I spent very significant amounts of time not only with police officers of junior rank but with police Q93 Michael Ellis: There are other watchdogs in the officers of very senior rank, Sir Peter Fahy, Sir Hugh criminal justice field, Probation Service, Prison Orde, Simon Ash and others, Lynne Owens of Surrey Service, Crown Prosecution Service, those watchdogs Police and senior officers in the Met, who were have not necessarily been long-service prison officers, extremely generous with their time to ensure that probation officers or prosecutors. What do you say to when I was coming to judgments in relation to matters those in policing who feel that, unlike those other relevant in the police pay review, that I was doing so fields in criminal justice, it has to be a police officer on the basis of a very sound knowledge, and I drank who is a Chief Inspector of Constabulary? cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [06-08-2012 13:08] Job: 022254 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/022254/022254_w002a_grace_B - 120720 White & Case.xml

Ev 14 Home Affairs Committee: Evidence

26 June 2012 Tom Winsor

Tom Winsor: Naturally, I disagree, because if I did with police officers and police staff need to be very agree, I wouldn’t have applied for the job, of course, good in the future. So to repair the damage, I think but I do not think it is necessary. I think that the that one of the first things that I would wish to do if perspective of an outsider, but also the experience of confirmed in this appointment is to get out there and an outsider in comparable, broadly comparable, listen to people as much as I possibly can, to ensure circumstances can bring a richer mix to the that they are very cognisant of the principles on which assessment of the efficiency and effectiveness of the I would lead HMIC, of serving the public interest, and police. When I was rail regulator, as I mentioned to ensuring that the inspections and the thematic reports the Chairman, I was not a railway engineer or a are all done from the perspective of the people for professional economist, so I received advice. Policing whom policing exists, and that is the public. I think is an extremely important safety-critical, essential, that through a thorough analysis and objective monopoly public service and the assets of the police assessment of facts, coming to proportionate reasoned service are very complex, but the principles are if you judgments, basically leading by example, I think that are providing a safety-critical, essential, monopoly some of the critics will calm down, realise that this is public service you need to understand the condition, a very professional, thorough operation and that the capacity and capability, the performance, the bridges will be capable of being repaired and rebuilt. efficiency and effectiveness of those assets, you need to nurture and develop those assets to release their Q96 Bridget Phillipson: Were you approached by greatest potential and to ensure that they are meeting the recruitment agency or by Ministers to apply for the needs of the public. That is true of energy this job, or did you take that decision independently? networks, transportation networks, and it is especially Tom Winsor: I was approached on the day Sir Denis’ true when you come to the police, because the resignation was announced by Saxton Bampfylde, the network, the infrastructure, the principal operational headhunters, who asked me if I would be interested in assets of the police are people doing very complex, applying. They emailed me the relevant papers and I not simple, things. thought about it long and hard, because going back into the world of public service is quite a step to take, Q94 Michael Ellis: Just on that, so as a former as the Chairman mentioned. It is of course necessary regulator, how do you think that HMIC fares currently for me to resign my partnership in one of the largest as a regulator of policing and how would you law firms in the world, where I have been very happy, improve it? but the allure of public service, particularly a Tom Winsor: I think that HMIC has a very impressive challenge like this, was just too great for me. record, especially under the present Chief Inspector, Sir Denis O’Connor. I think that it has tackled some Q97 Bridget Phillipson: You have talked about how very tough issues recently with conspicuous ability. there is a significant deal of change at the moment For example, I mentioned the policing protests report, within the landscape of policing. How do you feel that the report on anti-social behaviour, but also shining a the Inspectorate will sit within that new landscape light and doing detailed comparisons in the costs of with the change that is going on at the moment? policing and value for money. I think also that HMIC Tom Winsor: There are very significant challenges under Sir Denis has very conspicuously raised the ahead and the Inspectorate is going to be very much public profile of the organisation and has moved at the forefront of some of these reforms. The world forces on in those areas. So those are the things that I is changing a great deal in policing, some say too think have been done well, but, as is well-known with much, but some say it is long overdue. The a term appointment, you can never achieve everything architecture of accountability is changing very you want to achieve. When I was in railways, I had significantly. HMIC’s own accountability is changing. unfinished business. There were things I would have Parliament has recently made it more independent of done if I had had another two years or five years, but Ministers and we also have the advent of Police and that was never in prospect. HMIC will never stand Crime Commissioners, enhanced local accountability. still; there will always be unfinished business, so I That is a very significant change, and HMIC is going think that HMIC should go much further on the to have to forge very close and effective links with operational model of policing. PCCs, because PCCs, with a democratic mandate to hold local officers to account, are going to need Q95 Bridget Phillipson: You appear to be HMIC’s work to be of a high order. suggesting, Mr Winsor, that your report was either Chair: We are coming on to that. misunderstood or wilfully misrepresented by some Bridget Phillipson: Thank you. police officers. How do you intend to move beyond this, repair the damage that has been done for Q98 Chair: Thank you. In answer to my question whatever reason and work with police officers at just now, Mr Winsor, you said that you do not receive every level? any remuneration for the work you did— Tom Winsor: I think that the criticisms, fair or unfair, Tom Winsor: That is right. should be put to one side. It is now a political decision Chair:—on the Winsor Review. Is that right? as to the extent, if any, to which my recommendations Tom Winsor: Correct. will be implemented. Yes, there were some angry words spoken about it and many of them were pretty Q99 Chair: But your firm, White & Case, did off-colour and pretty unfair, but I think it is extremely receive remuneration? important that the relationships with police forces, Tom Winsor: No. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [06-08-2012 13:08] Job: 022254 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/022254/022254_w002a_grace_B - 120720 White & Case.xml

Home Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 15

26 June 2012 Tom Winsor

Q100 Chair: There is a Home Office letter in undercover detectives and so on—then the Home response to a Freedom of Information request which Secretary would listen to him or her, just as she does says that your law firm received £300 per day for the to experts in other fields. I do not accept that I would time that you spent with the Home Office, and that be unable to discharge the full range of functions Edward Crew received £300 a day as well. On the because the Home Secretary receives advice from figures that you have just given the Committee—I just many sources, but the reality is that, as far as think you should take advice on this—that would operational policing is concerned, the primary mean your firm received £104,700 for the time that statutory objective of HMIC is to report to the Home you were not there. Were you not aware that they were Secretary, now to Parliament, on the efficiency and paid for your services? effectiveness of policing. That is the core role of Tom Winsor: They have not been paid for my HMIC and I have no expectation of doing anything services. The Home Office’s answer is incorrect. We less than the full core role. have been paid nothing. Q104 Mr Clappison: From your present position, Q101 Chair: So this letter is incorrect? what would you see as the main challenges currently Tom Winsor: If it says we have been paid money for facing Chief Constables? my services, then it is incorrect. We have been paid Tom Winsor: They are legion and they are very nothing. significant. The principal one is austerity. Future Chair: That is very helpful. We will clarify the comprehensive spending reviews probably won’t be situation. Thank you. any better than the present one and, therefore, Chief Constables need to continue to find and exploit all Q102 Dr Huppert: Do you believe that if you are possible opportunities for greater efficiency in their appointed as Chief Inspector you would be able to operations. They also face higher public needs and take on the full range of functions that your expectations for the quality of policing. As I predecessors carried out, for example, being the Home mentioned earlier, the world is changing; the Secretary’s principal advisor for operational policing, architecture of accountability, PCCs, pay reform, and doing a certain amount of professional advice and the need to do more with less. I think we are moving mentoring for serving Chief Constables? Would you towards a smaller police service that will have to be able to do that or would somebody else have to deliver increasing levels of service with smaller lead on those specific bits of work? resources, and that is something that most police Tom Winsor: The fact is that the Royal Commission forces and chief officers have never had to face to this in 1962 made a recommendation that the Chief extent before. Inspector of Constabulary should be the Home Secretary’s principal professional advisor on policing. Q105 Mr Winnick: There is just one point to clear That recommendation was not enacted in the Police up. I don’t particularly want to pursue it, but when Act 1964, which followed the Royal Commission. A I said the Government—I think I used the words— great many of the Royal Commission’s “warmly welcomed” your report, the fact is that the recommendations were enacted. That one was not. So Minister who spoke to us prior to you coming into the it has never been the legal position that the Chief room made it clear that the report that was Inspector of Constabulary has been the principal commissioned did meet with the broad support of the advisor. The terminology has some currency, but the Government. That is for the record, so to speak. reality is that the Home Secretary receives advice Tom Winsor: Thank you. I didn’t know that. from many sources. On operational policing, for example on counter-terrorism, I expect her principal source of advice would be senior officers in the Q106 Mr Winnick: Now you do. Mr Winsor, you Metropolitan Police. would be, as everyone has said, the first civilian to take on this job and you have explained why you don’t Q103 Dr Huppert: You describe accurately, I believe in any way there would be a bar to carrying believe, the legal position on this, but do you accept out the job accordingly. Do you feel, however, that, as that it has been the practice, for people in the position the first civilian taking on the job in 156 years, you that you aspire to, to play the effective role of being would find one factor more difficult than perhaps the Home Secretary’s principal advisor on operational others would, namely—however unjustified it may policing, and do you think you would be able to do be—the hostility of so many of the police force that role the way your predecessors have done since towards you, if you were in fact to be appointed as 1962 and before that? the Chief Inspector of Constabulary? Tom Winsor: I discussed this matter with Sir Denis Tom Winsor: First, if I may gently correct you, Mr O’Connor, and he told me that he has never regarded Winnick. I don’t think I would be the first civilian to himself as the Home Secretary’s principal advisor on hold this office because the police is a civilian force. policing. I don’t know what the relationships between They are civilians in uniform. The police are the previous Chief Inspectors and Home Secretaries have public and the public are the police. been. Undoubtedly, if the Chief Inspector of Mr Winnick: The first civilian to hold the post of Constabulary had relevant expertise in a particular Chief Inspector of Constabulary. field—and, as I mentioned to the Chairman earlier, Tom Winsor: No, I think that all the Chief Inspectors police officers do not have detailed expertise in have been civilians. If I may suggest, you mean the everything like counter-terrorism, firearms, first non-police officer. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [06-08-2012 13:08] Job: 022254 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/022254/022254_w002a_grace_B - 120720 White & Case.xml

Ev 16 Home Affairs Committee: Evidence

26 June 2012 Tom Winsor

Mr Winnick: All right, if we want to go into sufficient to overcome what we agree could be some semantics. We won’t pursue that. of the difficulties in your taking up this position. Tom Winsor: I think it is important that we are a Would you say that would be part of your personality? civilian service, not a militaristic one. Tom Winsor: A conciliatory attitude? Most certainly, Mr Winnick: You have made the point; if you could yes. answer the question that I put to you. Chair: But you are a litigation lawyer. Tom Winsor: Of course. I think the hostility has been Tom Winsor: No, I’m not. I am an administrative and intemperate and unjustified, and I think that when the commercial lawyer, but I do litigation as well and, at vast majority of police officers realise that my the beginning of my career I used to do criminal law recommended pay reforms, if they are implemented, with a conspicuous lack of success, mainly because are not as severe on their personal circumstances as most of my clients were guilty and the police evidence they have been led to believe, that hostility will die was overwhelming. down very significantly. The reality is that a very Chair: I think Mr Winnick has led you down memory significant proportion—it is impossible to say how lane. If you do not have an answer, that is fine. many and we discussed this the last time I was here— Tom Winsor: I do have an answer. I am sure that the of serving police officers are facing either a neutral police service will see my kinder side for as long as financial impact of my recommendations or indeed a they are pursuing the objectives of the public. pay rise, even though they are in the two-year public Chair: Excellent. sector pay freeze, they have a pay progression freeze Mr Winnick: Your kinder side, I see. and they are facing higher pension contributions. If I may just add this: when we published the Part 1 Q109 Mark Reckless: I was not aware until just now report, which was the one that made the most that you had done as many as 347 days or that you significant difference if implemented, we were had done so without any compensation. I, for one, receiving emails of, yes, a very hostile kind about how would like to thank you for that, whatever the police officers were facing financial pressures that outcome of today. On page 19 of your CV you refer were intolerable. We asked the police officers who to how much the police service could and should were communicating with us, “What are your have, but has not, learned from private sector circumstances? How many years police service do you enterprises. Could you give us some examples? have? Do you do overtime, unsocial hours? Do you Tom Winsor: The police service, in too many respects, have specialist skills?” We would plug them into our has had rising manpower numbers and insufficient financial model and then email many of these police pressures of a financial nature and, of course, Chief officers back saying, “Actually you are not in for a Constables are facing quite the opposite now. In my pay cut. You are in for a pay rise”. So we put that view, having done the review, they have inadequate model online so that people could— appreciation of the condition, capability, serviceability and performance of their assets. They do not manage Q107 Mr Winnick: I wonder if I can interrupt, Mr their assets as intelligently and as efficiently as they Winsor, because we are not discussing the report on might and it is extremely important that those assets its merits. We have had you before the Committee and are deployed in the most efficient way. The private obviously you have very strong views and sector has to do that because the private sector, in understandably so. What I am saying is that the view most respects, faces competition and the police or interpretation that you have given—understandably, service, naturally, does not. it is your review—is not shared by so many in the It is quite extraordinary just how low technology some police force. Therefore, if there is this feeling of police officers have to endure. I have seen too many antagonism or hostility, I am just asking you whether police officers doing two-finger typing in a police you feel it would make your job that much more station rather than being out on the streets fighting difficult. crime. If a private-sector organisation were to have Tom Winsor: Naturally it would be much better if the some of its most skilled assets, to whom it has police service were to unanimously welcome my delegated the greatest amount of power, standing in a appointment, but that was never going to happen. queue for four hours as they wait to book in someone Clearly those views are not shared, but I believe my who has been arrested—that is half a shift or a third views as to the integrity of the review and the fairness of a shift just hanging around because the processing of the review will come to be shared when people see of people is poor—then those private-sector the effect in their pay packet. organisations would make changes very rapidly. So there is a great deal that could be achieved through Q108 Mr Winnick: Yes. I wonder if I can finally put improvements in technology and improvements in just this point to you. You spoke about your robust the stewardship of their assets. position when you were the rail regulator. The Prime Minister wanted—perhaps wrongly or rightly, it is not Q110 Mark Reckless: Mr Winsor, in your for me to say—your resignation. You had difficulties application you rest quite heavily on the importance with the Ministers of the day. You also had difficulties of your role and your experience as rail regulator. with Railtrack because the Government was so Could I just ask, during your time in that position the disappointed with Railtrack, with three major annual amount of money being given, I believe at accidents, and acted as they saw fit. This is a rather your say so, to Railtrack and then to Network Rail difficult question for you to answer. It is subjective. I increased from £2 billion a year to £4.5 billion a year. just wonder whether you have a conciliatory attitude Do you bear any responsibility for the inflation of cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [06-08-2012 13:08] Job: 022254 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/022254/022254_w002a_grace_B - 120720 White & Case.xml

Home Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 17

26 June 2012 Tom Winsor costs within the railway industry, and how would you Chair: Indeed it does say “will”. So we just want you relate that to the current austerity in policing? to clarify it and I think the Committee will need an Tom Winsor: I am responsible for the financial answer before we reach a decision on these matters. settlement of the railway going up from £10 billion to We just want it to be cleared up now, rather than— £14.8 billion in October 2000 and then up to £22.2 Tom Winsor: Yes. Well, the billing rate at White & billion in December 2003. Case is not £300 an hour. Mark Reckless: For a five-year period. Chair: It is more. Tom Winsor: Correct, for a five-year period; whereas Tom Winsor: We couldn’t make money at that rate. the police service costs a lot more. It costs about £14 The letter says, “The law firm White & Case, at which billion a year. The reason why the costs of the railway Tom Winsor is a partner, will receive £300 a day for went up as much as they did was largely because the his services.” Well, the firm will only— assets had been severely neglected for many years, under Governments of both colours, because it is quite Q113 Chair: Is this the first time you have seen this easy in the short term to save money by allowing letter? infrastructure to deteriorate slowly. When you get to Tom Winsor: Yes. the point where it needs to be fixed, it can be very expensive to bring it back up again and that is broadly Q114 Chair: Right. This is while the inquiry was why we did it. So the neglect and decay of the 1960s going on. People in the Home Office don’t tell you and 1970s were not on my watch. when they are answering Freedom of Information requests about your own review? Q111 Mark Reckless: If I could just ask one more Tom Winsor: I am sure they should have. question on the railway issue, given the way you put it on your CV and application. When Railtrack was Q115 Chair: They should have told you, shouldn’t pushed into administration, I understand, by the they? We can clarify this very easily. After this Secretary of State, Stephen Byers, at the time and you hearing you are able to— were being threatened about your response to that, you Tom Winsor: We have not received any money for say, notwithstanding those threats, you offered my review. Railtrack the finance to keep going but that the Chair: Right, but we can get that clarified from the directors of the company had just given up and failed firm? to keep Railtrack going. Shouldn’t they have acted in Tom Winsor: the best interests of the company? Yes, of course. Chair: Chair: Mr Winsor, I see you smiling. We don’t want Because you might not know about it. There the history of Railtrack here. A brief answer would are 200 partners at White & Case. be fine. Tom Winsor: No, there are 480— Tom Winsor: I have all afternoon. Chair: Right, even more. Mark Reckless: Did it reflect in any way your Tom Winsor:—and 6,000 employees, but I would relations with the directors of that company that you know if the firm had issued a bill and it has not. offered them this money to keep money but they gave up, didn’t take it and went into administration? Q116 Chair: But you didn’t know about this letter? Tom Winsor: Well, they must answer for their own Tom Winsor: I didn’t know about this letter. misjudgment on that night, but Railtrack’s board Chair: Excellent. attained the highest level of their own incompetence Tom Winsor: But I can just say definitively to the on the night they could have saved their own lives. Committee that my firm—and this is true of me as well—have not received a single penny for my Q112 Chair: Thank you. I am sorry to go back to services. this but, of course, as you urged the Committee in your article in The Guardian, we have to be accurate Q117 Chair: So your assumption is when they were in our information. You said you received no offered this money it was turned down? remuneration and your firm received no remuneration Tom Winsor: The terms of my appointment entitle the and indeed Mr Reckless has just commended you for firm to receive this amount. That entitlement has not that. I am just going to give you a copy of a letter that been exercised. we have received, which was a Freedom of Chair: Just for completeness it would be very good Information request, which indicates that your firm to have that confirmed in a note to us. Thank you. will be paid £300 a day for your services, Sir Edward Tom Winsor: What more can I say? Crew £300 a day for his services and Richard Disney Chair: Fine, we accept that. £16,000 for the work that he did on behalf of the University of Nottingham. I know the billing rate at Q118 Dr Huppert: Just to say that I had understood White & Case is probably £300 an hour, but this this. The position is that you were entitled to £300 per comes to £104,000. Now, it is important that we are day and that was the contractual terms. You and your accurate. It may well be you didn’t know this, which firm turned that money down and have not asked for I find strange because it is about your review. If that funding. Is that— Government officials are answering a question about Tom Winsor: We have not asked for it. your review, you ought to know because this is 20 Dr Huppert: Fine. But it was available. It was part May 2011. of the contractual terms of your appointment? Dr Huppert: It says “will”. Tom Winsor: Yes. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [06-08-2012 13:08] Job: 022254 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/022254/022254_w002a_grace_B - 120720 White & Case.xml

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26 June 2012 Tom Winsor

Q119 Dr Huppert: Thank you. Can I then follow on officers to account. Information is the oxygen of from Mr Reckless’ question about what can be learned accountability and it is extremely important that the from private-sector enterprises and press you to PCCs have a ready supply. They are also addressed to describe some of the challenges that are specific to chief officers, because chief officers need to know policing and are different from a private enterprise of where their forces are doing well and where their a similar size. How would you describe the key forces need to make improvements. Therefore, they differences between the police service and indeed are an important constituent in this as well. anything else that you have been involved in? Tom Winsor: Well, policing is a safety-critical Q122 Lorraine Fullbrook: Thank you. Just going activity. It is an essential public service. It is a back to part of your question, what do you see as the monopoly. In that respect, it is very similar to, but has main sensitivity surrounding the relationship between many material differences from, other kinds of the independent Inspectorate and the newly elected activity. As I said at the beginning, policing is the way Police and Crime Commissioners? in which the state discharges its highest duty to the Tom Winsor: The sensitivities between the citizen, which is to protect the citizen. So there are Inspectorate and PCCs? It is hard to tell now because parallels, and there are material differences. One of we don’t have any PCCs and we don’t know how that the most material differences is not only the intensity is going to develop over time. I think it is important of the asset base of the police, which is the expertise that PCCs, which are a massively important and and performance of people, but also the fact that it radical change to the democratic accountability of delegates to its lowest-ranking people the greatest police services, are equipped and given the very best amount of power that it possesses, namely the power chance to succeed and HMIC is going to be a critical to take away the liberty of the subject. Therefore, any part in their success. I do, if I am confirmed in this parallels, and I have seen many of them in the press role, have very considerable anxiety about the power with the military, are completely misconceived of PCCs to request HMIC to do a force inspection in because police officers have a very significant amount their individual areas. I am not sure how many of the of power and discretion exercisable on their own 43 or so PCCs that we will have in November will judgment at the point of the greatest importance, not exercise their right to ask HMIC to do a force namely the interaction with the citizen. inspection in terms of efficiency and effectiveness. Dr Huppert: Thank you. I am sure one could make HMIC is not presently resourced to do 43 inspections the case that privates in the military, when they shoot all at once. There will have to be a rationing process. somebody, are taking a decision like that. Tom Winsor: But they can be ordered to shoot. A Q123 Lorraine Fullbrook: It is an interesting police officer cannot. question, because how do you think the Inspectorate should balance the police force’s assessment against Q120 Dr Huppert: You have talked a lot about objectives set by the local commissioner with the evidence and, while there has been some questioning assessment performance of national priorities? of the evidence in your own report, that should be Tom Winsor: I know there is a very considerable borne out either by factual evidence or not. Are you anxiety on the part of some chief officers that the aware of the Society of Evidence Based Policing, and PCCs will be focused only on the local and will is that something that you would want to see neglect and apply pressure to chief officers not to play encouraged throughout the police, or do you have any their full part in terms of the national policing take on how evidence should be used within policing landscape. I think it may very well be the role of itself? HMIC to ensure that the protocol in relation to Tom Winsor: I am not aware of the Society of national issues and national co-operation is adhered to Evidence Based Policing. If it does what it sounds like and that the PCCs do not apply improper pressure on it does, then I would very much like to know much chief officers to neglect the national responsibilities. more about it. Lorraine Fullbrook: Great; thank you.

Q121 Lorraine Fullbrook: Mr Winsor, I would like Q124 Alun Michael: The personal specification calls to talk to you about the Inspectorate and the for excellent customer engagement skills. Who do you relationship with Police and Crime Commissioners. see as the Inspectorate’s customers and how would Who would you think that HMIC reports should be you seek to engage with them? primarily aimed at? Would it be the public, Chief Tom Winsor: The principal customer of the Constables or Police and Crime Commissioners, in Inspectorate is the public, but it is also PCCs. Not so your view? much chief officers. They are more the subject of the Tom Winsor: Well, if you are asking me to put them HMIC’s attentions rather than their customers. It in the hierarchy, because of course they have different depends on what you mean by “customer”, of course. purposes in the hands of different people, I believe that the primary focus—and therefore I would put it Q125 Alun Michael: If I may, it is the engagement I highest on the list since you asked me—is the public was asking about and, traditionally, I would think the because that is the community for whose benefit engagement might be primarily with chief officers policing exists. Police and crime commissioners have rather than the public. So your answer on the a democratic mandate from the public and Police and customers is quite an interesting one. Crime Commissioners will need the services of HMIC Tom Winsor: Well, the engagement is going to have in order to make their own judgments in holding chief to be multifaceted. One of the things that I think Sir cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [06-08-2012 13:08] Job: 022254 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/022254/022254_w002a_grace_B - 120720 White & Case.xml

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26 June 2012 Tom Winsor

Denis O’Connor has done with conspicuous success Tom Winsor: I do not regard frontline policing as only and needs to be built upon is to raise the public profile visible policing. I think a great deal of frontline of HMIC. I think it is extremely important that a policing takes place beyond the eyes of the public but regulatory authority or a hybrid regulatory authority, is no less important and, in many respects, is much which is what HMIC is, takes very seriously the duty more important than the police officer in a car or to explain. When I was rail regulator I put that very walking the street. For example, a great deal of work high in our operational priorities, because if you takes place in domestic violence or in child protection, explain what you are doing and why you are doing it, as well as, of course, counter-terrorism, undercover and also why you are not doing some things, in policing, the disruption of criminal networks and rational, proportionate terms then people appreciate it, serious and organised crime. Those things very they understand it and you can have a much better largely, if not exclusively, take place beyond the dialogue with those people when you do explain these public eye. I do not regard a police officer who does things. So I think the duty to explain should be taken what I believe to be the most stressful—not the most extremely seriously and, therefore, the public profile dangerous but the most stressful—thing in policing of HMIC should go ever higher so the public know that I have been able to see, namely watching images that HMIC is on their side. and videos of children being tortured and murdered, as not being on the frontline, even though they are Q126 Alun Michael: In relation to that, let’s just sitting in a police station and looking at a computer look at the priorities then. We have concentrated quite screen. That is the frontline. a bit the issue of change and bringing about change and, of course, that is something about which you Q128 Alun Michael: Would you accept then that have said quite a lot, but isn’t it also a major priority possibly we need some work on enhancing the for the Inspectorate to continually bring the police common understanding in the Inspectorate, in the back to the two basic requirements? Indeed, one of police in general and in the public of what this term those is to prevent and reduce offending, as set out by means if we are to continue using it? Sir Robert Peel originally and reinforced in recent Tom Winsor: Yes. There is a great deal of terminology times by Ministers. The other one, the relationship in the police that seems to have multiple where the public are the police and the police are the understandings, but I think the frontline is one that public, you have referred to in terms. But bringing the would benefit from a common understanding. police back to that original “Peelian” concept of the priority being to prevent and reduce crime, is that not Q129 Michael Ellis: Mr Winsor, I want to ask you an important part of the role of the Inspectorate? about your accountability going forward but, before I Tom Winsor: I think the primary purpose of the police do, I think, in answer to a question you gave to one is the prevention of crime. We have in this country, of my colleagues a while ago, you said that you England and Wales at least, one of the highest wanted more of an operational role for the Chief re-offending rates in Europe; three times the rate of Inspector of Constabulary. Would you like to expand some Scandinavian countries. I think the best way of a little on how you envisage that happening? reducing re-offending is to prevent offending in the Tom Winsor: I don’t think I said a more operational first place. Therefore, the focus of the police should role for the Chief Inspector. What I said—correct me be much more proactive in preventing crime than reactive once crime has taken place. That is what the if I am wrong—is that the HMIC should be looking public want. They just don’t want crime to be there. much more at the operating model of policing and Rather than see the conspicuous and brutal treatment making assessments as to whether that is as efficient of offenders, what they want to see is safer and effective as possible in matters, for example, such communities and a feeling of safety as they walk as the use of technology. I was staggered when I did around, but not just the feeling of safety; the reality my field work in the police pay review at just how of safety. low-tech the technology of the police is in volume Alun Michael: That would be a key part of your crime and so on. It is extraordinary. vision of what the Inspectorate should be encouraging? Q130 Michael Ellis: You envisage a role for the Tom Winsor: Most certainly, because that is the Inspectorate in perhaps being critical where primary purpose of the police. technology hasn’t kept up with developments as far as policing is concerned? Q127 Alun Michael: Can I ask you about one other Tom Winsor: I think HMIC already is critical in those thing and that is you have talked about frontline respects. They have computer screens that resemble policing. Indeed, it is something I asked you about in those that we saw in the early 1980s. I mentioned the a previous appearance before this Committee. Having police officers doing their own two-finger typing and been back to your report, as you suggested at the time, so on. It is the most extraordinarily archaic system, I am still not clear what you mean by “frontline and I think it is part of HMIC’s role to expose policing”. I think it is even more important that we inefficiency and that surely is massively inefficient. should be clear what the Chief Inspector means by the term “frontline policing” and how you would seek to Q131 Michael Ellis: Yes. As to accountability, how influence the police as Chief Inspector in maintaining would you characterise the relationship between the frontline policing. Could you set out your thoughts on Chief Inspector and the Home Secretary? How would that, please? you envisage that happening and working with you as cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [06-08-2012 13:08] Job: 022254 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/022254/022254_w002a_grace_B - 120720 White & Case.xml

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26 June 2012 Tom Winsor the Chief Inspector, whoever the Home Secretary was gained by turning it round from a reactive to a to be? proactive model of prevention of crime. Tom Winsor: Yes. We’ll assume that certain Ministers with whom I have dealt will not come back. They are Q134 Michael Ellis: You would like the Inspectorate different roles. Criminal justice policy undoubtedly is of policing to be more transparent than it has been in the hands of the Government, principally the Home hitherto, more visible to the public? Secretary, and HMIC is the quasi regulator of the Tom Winsor: I think Sir Denis O’Connor and his police service making assessments as to what is being colleagues have made very great strides in that done to achieve the public policy objectives that are respect, but it is not the end of the journey; so yes. set by Parliament, as the supreme regulatory authority, and by Ministers. The HMIC and the Chief Inspector Q135 Michael Ellis: The scenario is changing with will report to Parliament under the Police Reform and Police and Crime Commissioners. Would you say the Social Responsibility Act 2011, and now lays those transparency that will be evident from those elections reports to Parliament, but the Home Secretary has can be mirrored by you in the role of Chief Inspector reserve powers in relation to the inspection of Constabulary? programme and can ask for specific inspections. I Tom Winsor: Broadly, yes. They are, of course, think the role of HMIC is to speak truth unto power, completely different roles, but I think, as I said to Mr and the power in the land is Parliament and Ministers. Michael and to others on the Committee earlier, the duty to explain is extremely important and, therefore, Q132 Michael Ellis: How do you see the I believe that if HMIC were to intensify and to Inspectorate being accountable to Parliament? increase its adherence to that duty then very great Tom Winsor: Firstly, through the making of reports advantage would be gained. and, secondly, through— Michael Ellis: Perhaps you coming to this Q136 Mr Winnick: Mr Winsor, if you are appointed Committee? does that mean that you would no longer be able to Tom Winsor:—appearances like this and the express your views in public on various issues of the Chairman has reminded me of my encouragement that day? they should be as rough as possible. As long as the Tom Winsor: I suppose I might be constrained. I Chief Inspector of Constabulary, the Home Secretary haven’t seen the terms of appointment, but I would and Ministers are mindful and properly observant of certainly be refraining from writing articles in The the respective roles of the two, then I believe it can Guardian newspaper encouraging people to be be a very constructive relationship. As I mentioned aggressive with me. earlier, if the Home Secretary wanted a meek and Chair: You mean Select Committees to be aggressive compliant regulatory authority, she would not have with you? chosen me. Tom Winsor: Anyone, Chair. I have had my fill of aggression for a lifetime. Q133 Michael Ellis: I don’t think she wants a meek and compliant authority. If your appointment is Q137 Mr Winnick: Or perhaps, Mr Winsor, articles proceeded with, we will, no doubt, be taking evidence in The Times. Indeed, you have made a reference in from you again in a year’s time, perhaps less. Now, your CV that we could look up the articles that you what would you hope your main achievements would wrote. You consider that the pension given to Fred be by this time next year? Goodwin of £690,000, somewhat above a police Tom Winsor: That is an invitation to provide you with officer’s pension, was perfectly justified and you are any number of hostages and so I will accept it. One perfectly entitled to your view. Do you feel that if you of the things I would like to be able to point to is a were Chief Inspector of Constabulary you would not higher visibility, a higher public role for HMIC, as I be able to write that? mentioned to Mr Michael in his questioning; Tom Winsor: Firstly, I think it is not an accurate increasing the visibility, accessibility and credibility reading of that article that I was suggesting that of HMIC. When I began the police pay review I had Goodwin’s pension was perfectly justified. I said he hardly any awareness of HMIC. I knew it existed and had a contractual entitlement to it. I didn’t say it was had seen some of their reports, but not much. I think justified. I would like to be able to say that HMIC explains Mr Winnick: Which, in plain English, means he more fully and proactively what it is HMIC does and should receive it. Again, Mr Winsor, less semantics why it does it. I would like to be able to point to and perhaps we can get on with answering the the establishment of good working relationships with question. PCCs, with Parliament and Ministers, with police Tom Winsor: The principal question that you have forces and good relationships with other parts of the asked me, of course, is would I feel free to express criminal justice system, because it is supposed to be a my views on matters of political controversy. No, I single system. I would like to be able to report on an think I should be constrained. encouragement of more collegiate behaviour between police forces and to have begun to shine light in some Q138 Chair: Thank you. I think that is a very good of the darkest corners of policing. Policing today so answer. We are coming to the end of this session now. often starts at the point of human failure and then This appointment is for three years, as I understand it, policing is into a mode of recovery and stabilisation. which will take you up to 2015. Is that your I think there is very considerable advantage to be understanding as well? cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [06-08-2012 13:08] Job: 022254 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/022254/022254_w002a_grace_B - 120720 White & Case.xml

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26 June 2012 Tom Winsor

Tom Winsor: Yes. I think it is extendable by a further honest, hard-working, energetic, skilled police officers two, but not further than that. who do a great deal for nothing, through goodwill and through the application and dedication that they show Q139 Chair: Mr Ellis asked you about your vision in serving the public. They didn’t go into policing to for policing during that three-year period. You quite make money, but they do want to be treated fairly and rightly said it takes time to change a landscape, but they are frustrated at the inefficiencies and the you are right in the middle of this transformation by obstacles and barriers to their being as effective as the Government of the landscape of policing, and he possible. I think that HMIC has a role to ensure that did mention the new company that has been set up those police officers’ motivations and their latent by the Government to look at IT, which we are also capacity is released and nurtured so they can achieve scrutinising. Will you be involved in discussions much more. That is what they want and, it seems to concerning that company, bearing in mind your me, exposing and dealing with inefficiency and concerns about the age of some of the IT used by ineffectiveness is part of that. I don’t at the moment police forces? have a pen sketch of what the ideal police officer is Tom Winsor: If I am not invited to those discussions, beyond that, but it may be that on a future occasion I shall probably push my way in, because it is you will ask me again. absolutely core to the efficiency and effectiveness of policing. Q142 Chair: Guidance to Committees on pre- appointments enable us to ask this question, so this is Q140 Chair: Would you also see your role as being not personally directed at you. You are not a member involved in other aspects of the landscape of policing; of a political party at the moment, though you have what should go into the National Crime Agency, for been in the past. Is that correct? example? Tom Winsor: Correct. Tom Winsor: Insofar as it is relevant to the primary purpose of HMIC, the efficiency and effectiveness of Q143 Chair: Is that in the distant past? policing, then, yes, I would expect to have some part Tom Winsor: I resigned from the Labour Party in to play in those respects. What I would not do is to 2006. over-reach the jurisdiction of HMIC. We saw far too much of that in the railways—I realise you would not Q144 Chair: As far as our role is here, it is not to like me to take you back there—and that is quite assess the best candidate because we don’t know who illegitimate. HMIC has plenty to do without the other candidates were. You may or may not know arrogating to itself a jurisdiction that it does not who they were. Our role is to assess the professional possess because Parliament has not given it to it. competence and personal independence of the Home Secretary’s preferred candidate. Is that your Q141 Chair: Before you came in, I referred to the understanding of our role as well? Minister’s article in The Times about his ideal police Tom Winsor: Yes. officer, whether it was Dixon of Dock Green or Chair: Mr Winsor, thank you very much for coming Inspector Morse, which is what was put to him in that in. The Committee will now go into private session article. Do you have your own view of what you and we will have our decision by the end of today, regard as being the ideal police officer in 21st century and I will be in contact with you at some stage. British policing? Tom Winsor: Thank you. Tom Winsor: I think the ideal police officer exists in Chair: Thank you very much for coming in. many thousands in British policing. They are the

Letter from the Home Secretary, to the Chair of the Committee, 28 June 2012

HM CHIEF INSPECTOR OF CONSTABULARY—PRE-APPOINTMENT HEARING AND REPORT

Thank you for supporting my decision that Tom Winsor should succeed Sir Denis O’Connor as Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary. I note that you have also written to me separately regarding payments to White & Case for Tom Winsor’s work on the Review of Police Pay and Conditions. I will respond to that letter in due course.

In paragraph 8 of its report on the appointment of Tom Winsor as HMCIC your Committee recommends that Government should provide information on the other candidates and the selection process to select committees conducting pre-appointment hearings. I am concerned that there may be some misunderstanding here as the Committee was provided with detailed information on the process for selecting the new post-holder, as this was set out in the recruitment brief which was sent to the Committee well in advance of Tuesday’s hearing.

You wrote to me on the 25 May and 12 June requesting the names of shortlisted candidates. In my responses of the 28 May and 18 June I explained that I did not think it appropriate to reveal the names of other candidates. I also did not want to provide any other information which might have lead to speculation about the identities of the other candidates. My position was in line with the Cabinet Office guidance available at the time. I understand that Cabinet Office has just reviewed its guidance and will shortly be making revised guidance available to Government departments. cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [06-08-2012 13:08] Job: 022254 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/022254/022254_w002a_grace_B - 120720 White & Case.xml

Ev 22 Home Affairs Committee: Evidence

I am satisfied that the evidence provided to you in my correspondence and at the hearing by the Policing Minister complies with the 2011 Liaison Committee recommendation that “departments should provide committees with an oral or written brief about the conduct of the selection process and the nature of the shortlist in advance of a pre-appointment hearing.” Rt Hon Theresa May MP Home Secretary

Letter from the Home Secretary, to the Chair of the Committee, 4 July 2012 Thank you for your letter of 27 June regarding remuneration of Tom Winsor for the work which he carried out on the Independent Review of Police Officer and Staff Remuneration and Conditions. I can confirm that neither White & Case nor Mr Winsor has received any remuneration in respect of Mr Winsor’s work on the review. Mr Winsor has submitted expense claims that amount to £3,910.19, incurred during the production of his report, although these have yet to be paid. The terms and conditions of Mr Winsor’s appointment also provided for £300 per day to be paid to him in remuneration for his work on the review. However, the Home Office has received no request for payment from Mr Winsor. I understand that he does not intend to claim this money. White & Case have no contractual, or other, right to receive payments from the Home Office for the work carried out by Mr Winsor on the review. I hope that this clarifies the issue. Rt Hon Theresa May MP Home Secretary

Correspondence with White & Case LLP Letter from the Chair to Julia Walker, Partner & Deputy General Counsel, White & Case LLP, 27 June 2012 Further to your letter of 19 June, the Committee took evidence from Tom Winsor yesterday and has now indicated that it is content for the Home Secretary to proceed with his appointment. You said in your letter that Mr Winsor conducted his Review of Police Pay and Conditions in a personal capacity. However, a Freedom of Information disclosure made by the Home Office in May 2011 suggests that White & Case was to be paid £300 per day for Mr Winsor’s services. Please could you confirm: (a) whether or not White & Case received any payment from the Government in connection with Mr Winsor’s conduct of the Review of Police Pay and Conditions and, if so, how much; (b) whether there was any contract or other agreement with the Home Office whereby White & Case could claim payments for Mr Winsor’s services and, if so, what the basis of that agreement was; and (c) whether White & Case has formally waived any right it might have to receive payments from the Home Office in respect of Mr Winsor’s work. I would be grateful for a reply by midday on Monday 2 July. Rt Hon Keith Vaz MP Home Affairs Committee Chair

Letter from Julia Walker, Partner & Deputy General Counsel, White & Case LLP, to the Chair of the Committee, 2 July 2012 Thank you for your letter of 27 June 2012 following the meeting of the Home Affairs Committee at which evidence from Mr Winsor was heard. In response to the specific questions raised in your letter (and using the same numbering) I confirm as follows: (a) White & Case LLP has not received any payment whatsoever in relation to the Review of Police Pay and Conditions (the “Review”) conducted by Mr Winsor. (b) White & Case LLP has not entered into any contract or other agreement with the Home Office in connection with the Review, including as to payment entitlement. The terms of appointment for the Review were agreed between the Home Office and Mr Winsor on 1 October 2010 for services to be provided by Mr Winsor in his individual capacity (and not by White & Case LLP). cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [06-08-2012 13:08] Job: 022254 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/022254/022254_w002a_grace_B - 120720 White & Case.xml

Home Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 23

(c) White & Case LLP does not have any right to receive payment from the Home Office in respect of Mr Winsor’s Review and therefore there is no right in existence to be waived. I hope the above information and confirmation is helpful in clarifying, categorically, that White & Case LLP has not received (and neither will it receive) any payment from the Horne Office in connection with the Review. Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me. Julia Walker Partner & Deputy General Counsel White & Case LLP

Correspondence with White & Case LLP Letter from the Chair to Julia Walker, Partner & Deputy General Counsel, White & Case LLP, 5 July 2012 Thank you for your letter of 2 July in reply to my letter of 27 June, which confirms that White & Case received no payment from the Home Office in respect of Tom Winsor’s work on the independent review of police remuneration and conditions. Please could you confirm whether or not Mr Winsor received his full salary from White & Case in respect of the time he spent working on the review and, if not, what payment, if any, he did receive from the firm in respect of that time. I would be grateful for a reply by midday on Wednesday 11 July. Rt Hon Keith Vaz MP Home Affairs Committee Chair

Letter from Julia Walker, Partner & Deputy General Counsel, White & Case LLP, to the Chair of the Committee, 20 July 2012 Thank you for your letter of 5 July 2012. As I hope was communicated to you by the Clerk of the Committee, I have been away from the office and it is only now that I am able to reply, with apologies. In response to your request, I confirm that Mr Winsor continued to receive his remuneration as a partner in White & Case LLP for the period during which he undertook the Review of Police Pay and Conditions. Please do not hesitate to contact me if you believe I can be of further assistance in this matter. Julia Walker Partner & Deputy General Counsel White & Case LLP

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