Tuesday Volume 495 30 June 2009 No. 102

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 30 June 2009

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2009 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; Tel: 0044 (0) 208876344; e-mail: [email protected] 145 30 JUNE 2009 146

which is obviously a good thing—are indeed real voters. House of Commons I understand that about 85 per cent. of people in Helmand province have been registered, and we are Tuesday 30 June 2009 confident that the appropriate procedures have been followed there. However, if the hon. Gentleman has any particular evidence that he wishes to supply to me, I The House met at half-past Two o’clock should be happy to have it. Iran PRAYERS 2. Mr. Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What is [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] his most recent assessment of the political situation in Iran; and if he will make a statement. [282688]

BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS 7. Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): What recent reports he has received on the political situation NEW WRIT in Iran; and if he will make a statement. [282693] Ordered, That the Speaker do issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Crown to make out a new Writ for the electing of a Member to Affairs (David Miliband): It is for the Iranian people to serve in this present Parliament for the Borough Constituency of decide on their Government. The whole world has Norwich North in the room of Dr. Ian Gibson, who since his watched the post-election debate, demonstrations and election for the said Borough Constituency has accepted the violence against protesters with mounting concern. The Office of Steward or Bailiff of Her Majesty’s Three Chiltern grim effectiveness of the clampdown by the authorities Hundreds of Stoke, Desborough and Burnham, in the county of Buckingham.—(Mr. Nicholas Brown.) has clearly not ended the debate inside Iran. We are extremely concerned about the continued detention of some of our locally engaged staff in Tehran. That constitutes unacceptable harassment and intimidation, Oral Answers to Questions as European Foreign Ministers made clear in their joint statement on Sunday. I have discussed the issue with Iranian Foreign Minister Mottaki, and we agreed in our second telephone conversation yesterday that a swift FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE resolution was in both our interests.

The Secretary of State was asked— Mr. Hollobone: Has it been possible to make an accurate assessment of the number of Iranian protesters Afghanistan who have been arrested and imprisoned, and have any British nationals been harassed or detained?

1. Mr. Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con): What David Miliband: It has not been possible for us to discussions he has had with the Afghan authorities on conduct an independent assessment of the total number the conduct of the forthcoming presidential election in of protesters who have been arrested, let alone the that country. [282687] number who have been intimidated. As for the hon. Gentleman’s question about British nationals, he will The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth know of the case of a dual-nationality Greek-British Affairs (David Miliband): I met the Afghan Foreign journalist who was detained for a time. The handling of Minister, Dr. Spanta, in Trieste on Friday. Our embassy his case is being led by the Greek authorities, and I in Kabul is in regular dialogue with the Afghan authorities, talked to Foreign Minister Bakoyannis about it at the particularly the Independent Election Commission of weekend. Obviously any detention or intimidation of Afghanistan, which is running the first Afghan-led elections journalists or diplomatic staff is to be deplored, which since the 1970s. We are also in close contact with the is why we are working so hard on the case that is United Nations Development Programme, which is currently at the top of our list of priorities: that of our co-ordinating the international effort to support the own locally engaged staff. election commission. In Helmand province we are working with the election commission, the governor and the Tom Brake: The European Union has said that there Afghan national security forces to ensure credible elections will be a “strong and collective response” if the issue of on 20 August. embassy staff is not sorted out. Can the Secretary of State tell us what the nature of that “strong and collective Mr. Holloway: What reports has the Foreign Secretary response” might be? received of fraudulent voter registration in the run-up to the elections, such as the mass registration of women David Miliband: No, because one of the features of a in Nuristan? strong and collective response is that we do not advertise its various aspects in advance. At this stage, it is important David Miliband: My attention has not been drawn to for the Government of Iran to recognise that the unanimous the example that the hon. Gentleman has given, but the view was first that the arrest of the nine staff constituted United Nations and other authorities have been as intimidation and harassment of an unacceptable kind, vigilant as possible in ensuring that the extra voters who secondly that it was imperative for the individuals concerned have been registered—4 million or so have been registered, to be released unharmed as soon as possible and able to 147 Oral Answers30 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 148 go about their business, and thirdly that there would be Secretary reassure the House that beyond the reasonable a strong and collective response in respect of intimidation reaction to the unacceptable Iranian actions that we and harassment. have seen, Her Majesty’s Government will refuse to be It is important to understand that what is happening provoked by the supreme leader, President Ahmadinejad in Tehran and the wider country is not a bilateral and anyone else in the Iranian conservative leadership, dispute between Iran and Britain. There is a debate and instead recognise that silence, patience and restraint within Iran about how the people want to be governed, at such a time can be the most powerful of diplomatic but it is also the case that Iran seeks engagement with weapons? the wider international community.The wider international community is determined that that engagement should David Miliband: First, I am very grateful to the hon. take place on the basis of mutual respect, including Gentleman for the preliminary part of his remarks. I respect for all our staff. am not sure that I can sign up to “silence”, as that may be going a bit far in the conduct of foreign policy, but I Mike Gapes (Ilford, South) (Lab/Co-op): The Foreign certainly think we should be firm but not macho in the Secretary will be aware that the Foreign Affairs Committee way we go about it, and that is what I shall try to do. visited Iran two years ago, and we were greatly assisted in our visit by several locally engaged staff. Will he send Mr. William Hague (Richmond, Yorks) (Con): It is of a message, through whatever channels he has, to our course utterly unacceptable intimidation that Iran continues people in Iran that the FAC greatly appreciates the to detain four locally engaged staff from our embassy, work they have done for us and that our thoughts are and in making that clear the Foreign Secretary has the with them at this time? united support of the House. This transparent ruse by Iran to portray what is a crisis of the credibility of its David Miliband: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for own Government, using violence against their own his comments. It is important that so many Members people, as a dispute with the United Kingdom is totally now recognise that some 10,000 of the 16,000 Foreign unjustified and will deceive, and should deceive, no one. Office staff are locally engaged, increasingly in positions We also support the proportionate steps the Government connected with political reporting and economic analysis. have taken in response to this, and strongly welcome the The nine staff who were arrested on Saturday constitute supportive stance of the other EU Foreign Ministers. the locally employed element of our political and economic When the Foreign Secretary spoke yesterday to section in the embassy in Tehran. I am sure that my Mr. Mottaki, the Iranian Foreign Minister, did Mr. Mottaki hon. Friend’s thoughts and good wishes will be important repeat the assertion by the Iranian Foreign Ministry to them, but there is a more general principle here: these that there was no wish to damage or downgrade relations staff operate for diplomatic purposes, and they should with the United Kingdom, and if so, how did he square be given full respect for that role. that with the continued detention of four of our staff? Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): As the David Miliband: Foreign Minister Mottaki was clear Foreign Secretary correctly says, it is a matter for the that he wanted to raise the level of engagement not only people of Iran to choose their own Government, but it with this country but with other European countries. It is also a matter for the rest of the world that President is a matter of record that it is not the Ministry of Ahmadinejad exports anti-Semitism, exports fundamentalist Foreign Affairs in Tehran which goes around arresting terrorism, that he may, if he gets nuclear weapons, people, but I made it very clear, and Mr. Mottaki export some of those, and that he also exports regional understood and responded, that we did expect the Ministry instability. We must be much firmer and actually call of Foreign Affairs to engage actively in securing the this gentleman for what he is. release of the remaining staff. We want to take that process forward, and that is what is going on at the David Miliband: I take my right hon. Friend’s comment moment. in the spirit in which it was intended. There has been disgust not just across this House but across the Mr. Hague: Let us look ahead on this matter. Given international community at the anti-Semitic remarks the failure in the past to agree meaningful European President Ahmadinejad has made in recent weeks and sanctions with real bite on Iran on the issue of its years. However, one thing that has become clear in the nuclear programme—that has been illustrated by the last few weeks in respect of other aspects of my right fact that oil and gas sanctions announced by the Prime hon. Friend’s question is that all power does not reside Minister 18 months ago were never implemented—is it in the presidential office in Tehran: the role of the not vital to start work across the European Union supreme leader is absolutely critical, not least on the during the rest of this year on the serious economic nuclear file. It is therefore very important that we not penalties that ought to follow if Iran does not enter into only make clear our own views, but also understand the negotiations on its nuclear programme by the end of the different layers of governance that exist in the Islamic year? Will the Foreign Secretary take the opportunity to Republic of Iran. send a strong message to other European capitals that although we all want to see a positive Iranian response Mr. Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): to President Obama, if no meaningful progress is made May I place on record my support for the Government’s by the end of the year, it will be necessary for the EU to position on the British embassy staff arrested by the take a dramatically hardened stance and demonstrate Iranian authorities, and reinforce the Foreign Secretary’s the will that has eluded it in the past? message that Britain has been restrained and measured in response to the unrest since the Iranian elections? David Miliband: I genuinely say to the right hon. Given such sensitivities and the uncertainties over the Gentleman that I am disappointed by the first half of future of internal Iranian politics, will the Foreign his question. He said that no meaningful sanctions with 149 Oral Answers30 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 150 bite were being imposed by the European Union, but sort of violence that has been meted out by state authorities for the record I should point out that the sanctions in Iran since the election. That has contrasted most imposed by the EU as a result of Iran’s flouting of the strikingly with the passion of the debate that took place United Nations Security Council go beyond, and well before the election day, which was a credit to Iran. beyond in a number of respects, the requirements of the EU Regional Aid Programmes Security Council. To portray the situation as one where there is a lonely voice on the Opposition Benches calling 3. Andrew George (St. Ives) (LD): What recent for tough sanctions in respect of the Iranian nuclear discussions he has had in the General Affairs and programme—[Interruption.]—and similar voices on the External Relations Council on progress in the delivery Government Benches against those of 26 recalcitrant of EU regional aid programmes. [282689] European colleagues says more about his attitude towards his European colleagues than it does about the reality The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign of the situation. This is not a matter where he needs to and Commonwealth Affairs (Chris Bryant): Delivery of bring his Europhobia to bear, because there is a strong the EU structural and cohesion fund programmes was and united view among a number of countries in Europe discussed at the General Affairs and External Relations on it and there is unanimous support for the actions Council on 15 June. We are awaiting detailed proposals that have been taken by the European Union. We will from the European Commission on an amendment to need to go further; private work needs to be done on the the structural funds regulation to allow accelerated when and the how, but I should emphasise the word funding, as suggested in its communication of 3 June on “private”. employment. Mr. Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) Andrew George: Notwithstanding the Minister’s response, (Lab): As one who visited Iran during a period of great and given the uncertainty about and the cuts to the tension, when we had nobody at our embassy and the Learning and Skills Council, the Higher Education American embassy was similarly closed—this was prior Funding Council and the regional development agencies to the release of Terry Waite, John McCarthy and Brian budgets in the UK, what reassurance can the Minister Keenan—may I gently urge my right hon. Friend, despite give the EU Council and deprived UK regions, such as the fact that I welcome everything he had to say, to Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly, that those convergence accept that there is a difference between rhetoric and programmes will not suffer from the lack of UK match diplomacy? funding? David Miliband: I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend’s Chris Bryant: I can make an absolute guarantee that long-standing interest in these issues and the humanitarian not a single extra penny needed for match funding in perspective that he brings to all our discussions. I agree the UK would be brought forward by this proposal, that, of course, there is a difference between rhetoric which has not yet been outlined in full detail by the and diplomacy. In this case, we have tried to be absolutely European Commission. There would not be a single clear about things because, whether in respect of rhetoric penny missing in relation to the European social fund, or diplomacy, clarity helps. In this case, there is a clear which, as the hon. Gentleman knows, has already delivered and united demand from across the House and the significant extra benefits in Cornwall through the country, from across Europe, and from the United EMBARK programme and Workforce Cornwall. I hope States and others that these hard-working diplomatic that he will not be touting round the myth that the staff, who are of Iranian origin and have Iranian citizenship, proposal would bring in extra money—every penny of and who are doing an important job in a completely match funding has already been provided. proper way, should be released and allowed to get on Tibet with their work as soon as possible. 4. Harry Cohen (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): What Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington and Chelsea) (Con): recent discussions he has had with his Chinese counterpart Does the Foreign Secretary agree that the repression in to seek to achieve progress towards Tibetan autonomy Iran is already having consequences far beyond the within an overall China. [282690] borders of that country and has dealt a body blow to Iran’s aspirations to be seen as the champion of Islam The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth in the middle east? Has not President Ahmadinejad Office (Mr. Ivan Lewis): The Foreign Secretary last been revealed, not as a popular President who is governing raised the status of Tibet with Chinese Foreign Minister with the consent of the people of Iran, but as a local Yang during his visit to the UK in February during the despot who is sustained in power merely by the work of UK-China summit. He called for substantive dialogue the militia and the police? between the Chinese authorities and the Dalai Lama’s representatives to address the underlying issues in Tibet. David Miliband: Perhaps the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s question gives me a chance to point out Harry Cohen: Will the Minister urge his Chinese the important independent role that has been played in counterpart to end the outdated rhetoric of hostility Iran by the BBC Farsi service. Since its inception last towards the Dalai Lama and his Tibetan supporters? year, it has established itself as an authoritative and Will he tell him that that autonomy is a genuine and independent reporter on that nation’s affairs, and it has workable concept within an overall China, that it is not a very wide following in Iran. It is important to say that independence, as the hardliners pretend, and that it can although it receives public money, it receives no public help to provide an important degree of self-determination instruction as to how it should behave or what it should and can protect the unique Tibetan culture? Will the report. Crucially, in response to his question, I should Minister take practical steps, such as offering to mediate, point out that it has given an unvarnished view of the to help resolve this long-standing injustice? 151 Oral Answers30 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 152

Mr. Ivan Lewis: First, may I pay tribute to my hon. forefront in calling through the EU for an independent Friend for his long-standing interest and commitment investigation into any violations. We have also supported on this very important issue? It is possibly early days for the UN Secretary-General in his agreement with the me to start mediating in such an historic dispute, but it President of Sri Lanka to conduct an appropriate is absolutely clear that we believe that the only way investigation into any violations that have taken place. forward is for the Chinese authorities to resume bilateral It is really important that we send the message today discussions with the Dalai Lama’s envoys. It is worth that we expect the President of Sri Lanka to convert noting that it has always been the Dalai Lama’s position that rhetoric into action. not to advocate independence but to advocate autonomy. We believe that that is now consistent with the British Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) position and that this window of opportunity should be (Con): The Minister will be aware that this country, as used for the benefit of Tibet. well as having a significant Tamil population, also has many people from the Sinhalese area. What steps is he Norman Baker (Lewes) (LD): The UK Government taking with the high commissioner in this country to have rightly promoted the idea of dialogue, as the ensure that there are harmonious relations between Minister has just set out. Is not the reality that over Sri Lankans living here in the UK? many years the Chinese have engaged in dialogue but have never given any ground, even of a limited nature? Mr. Lewis: The best solution is to have a political What action are the Government taking to co-ordinate dialogue that leads to peace and stability in Sri Lanka. a response with other European Union countries, the One difficulty for the Tamil population and all minority United States and other allies to put pressure on the communities has been to ensure that the Sri Lankans Chinese authorities to be a little less intransigent and to honour their commitment to enter into serious political recognise the basic human rights of Tibet? discourse. We are very exercised about that, as we must Mr. Lewis: Our position has recently become aligned, put historical enmities behind us and start to build for the first time, with that of the European Union. more inclusive relationships with Sri Lanka. There is a clear, strong and united position, and the European Union uses its dialogue with China constantly Middle East to raise the question of Tibet. For example, during the last round of our bilateral human rights dialogue we 6. Mr. Eric Illsley (Barnsley, Central) (Lab): What called for due process in Tibet and full transparency to recent assessment he has made of the political situation allow unhindered access for diplomats and journalists. in the middle east; and if he will make a statement. We also called for reform of the use of the death penalty [282692] to limit the scope of its application. Now that our position, for the first time, is aligned with that of the The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth European Union, I believe that we have the best possible Affairs (David Miliband): The UK continues to support opportunity to influence the Chinese to do the right a two-state solution in the middle east. We urge the thing by Tibet. parties involved and the Arab world to continue to Sri Lanka build on the Arab peace initiative as the best basis for 5. Mr. Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): What establishing long-term regional peace. We urge Israel to his most recent assessment is of the political situation implement a complete freeze on settlement construction in line with its roadmap commitments, and we call on in Sri Lanka; and if he will make a statement. [282691] all Palestinians to be prepared to engage in peaceful The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth negotiations with Israel. Facilitating peace in the middle Office (Mr. Ivan Lewis): Following the recent end to east will remain a top priority for this Government, military operations, Sri Lanka has an historic opportunity alongside developing the institutions of a Palestinian to resolve the underlying causes of the conflict and to state. ensure a lasting peace. We have made clear our view that that can be best achieved through an inclusive political Mr. Speaker: Eric Illsley. solution based on respect, equality and the rule of law, which addresses the legitimate grievances of all Sri Lankan Mr. Illsley: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and may I offer communities, including the Tamil population. you my belated congratulations? Will my right hon. Friend maintain a commitment to persuading the Israeli Mr. Love: My hon. Friend will be aware that one of Government to accept the idea of a Palestinian state? the continuing conflicts concerns the events that happened Does he accept, however, that if that state is too bound in the last weeks and days of the conflict in the north of in by conditions and a commitment to retain settlements the island and whether or not criminal actions took it will be absolutely unacceptable to the Palestinian place. Will my hon. Friend redouble his efforts to persuade authorities and the international community? the Sri Lankan Government that they need to produce a report on those issues if they are to carry the peace process forward? David Miliband: I maintain that commitment very strongly. The Government’s position is very clear: a Mr. Lewis: It is important to put it on record that our two-state solution must be based more or less on the immediate concern is for the safety of the more than 1967 borders, Jerusalem should be the capital of both 280,000 people who fled the fighting and are now being Israel and Palestine, and there needs to be a fair settlement held in camps for internally displaced persons. That has of the refugee questions. That is at the heart of securing any to be our immediate concern, and we have allocated stability, never mind security or justice, for Palestinians— £12.5 million of humanitarian assistance to help Sri Lanka and, I argue, for Israelis too. That is why it will remain address those issues. In addition, we have been at the at the heart of our policy. 153 Oral Answers30 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 154

Mr. Ben Wallace (Lancaster and Wyre) (Con): In the Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) (Lab): While I past, whatever we thought of the regime running Iran, agree with my right hon. Friend that at last we have an the EU3 plus 3 countries recognised that it ruled by American President who recognises the suffering and some form of consent. In light of the recent elections, the plight of the Palestinian people, is it not unfortunate does the Foreign Secretary believe that the new that this wretched Israeli Administration continue to president—or President Ahmadinejad—rules by consent? build illegal settlements in defiance of international If not, how can we begin negotiations to solve problems law? What action is going to be taken by the leading to do with the middle east or the nuclear issue? powers over what Israel is doing?

David Miliband: As I said earlier, there is no way that David Miliband: The position of the Government we are able to count the ballots, and we are not in a on settlements is clear—settlements are illegal under position to say whether President Ahmadinejad got international law and a major blockage to peace in the 63 per cent. of the vote. Debate remains intense in Iran, middle east on the basis of a two-state solution. Reports and we are watching the process extremely carefully. We are coming through that the Israeli Ministry Of Defence will have to address questions about the Government of yesterday granted permission for 50 new housing units Iran, and I understand that the inauguration of a new at the Adam settlement, which we completely deplore. president is scheduled for 26 July. Over the coming three This is the worst possible time for new settlements to be weeks, we will work intensively with our partners to initiated or for construction to be started. We are at a ensure that there is a united international position in vital moment as the new American Administration respect of dealings with the Iranian Government. come to a decision about how they will prosecute their commitment to a two-state solution, and the call for a Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): As settlement freeze is clear and wholehearted. soon as this Question Time is over, will my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary contact his Israeli counterpart Mr. David Lidington (Aylesbury) (Con): Does the about the civilian ship, the Spirit of Humanity, aboard Foreign Secretary agree that it will be hard to build trust which is a constituent of mine? Its cargo of medical and and peace in the middle east while hundreds of thousands humanitarian supplies was thoroughly inspected by the of people in Gaza are still without sanitation, adequate port authorities before it left Larnaca yesterday, but the medicine or the materials that they desperately need to vessel is now surrounded by Israeli warships in international begin reconstruction? What action are the British waters. The Israeli forces have disabled the ship’s equipment, Government taking to find ways to allow supplies into have threatened to fire on the ship and have now boarded Gaza in order to end what the International Committee it. Will he insist to the Israeli authorities that they desist of the Red Cross described a couple of days ago as an immediately from these blatant violations of international “unending cycle of deprivation and despair”? law? David Miliband: I shall certainly follow up my right David Miliband: I am very glad that the hon. Gentleman hon. Friend’s question; he mentioned the issue to me on continues to draw attention to the Gaza issue, because the way in to the Chamber. If the contact has not been so do we. The danger is that Gaza gets left behind in made already, it will be made as soon as Question Time discussions of a peace plan or peace process. On Friday is over. It is obviously vital that all states respect international at the G8 meeting, I made a point of saying that the UK law, including the law of the sea. It is also important to believed that we could not pursue a Gaza-last policy, say that we deplore the interference by the Israeli navy in that practical help in Gaza was essential—our £46 million the activities of Gazan fishermen, which has been brought of aid is just a part of that—and that adherence to the to my attention on previous occasions. Resolution 1860 call of the UN Security Council resolution for an was clear about the basis of peaceful progress in respect immediate opening of the crossings is in the interests of of Gaza, and we are determined to uphold all of its all right-minded people in thinking through how we can aspects. build any kind of solution or trust, to repeat the word that the hon. Gentleman used, in the middle east. Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): Can the Foreign Secretary indicate when he last discussed the Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): middle east with President Barack Obama of the United My right hon. Friend has been very clear about the States? He will agree that the United States probably Government’s position on Israeli settlements. President stands a greater chance of exercising influence in the Obama, in his Cairo address, made it clear that Israeli middle east than any other major power in the world. It settlements on the west bank have to stop. On 26 June, is important that we create a stable government in both the G8 too was entirely clear that Israeli settlements on Palestine and Israel. the west bank have to stop, but they are still carrying on, so perhaps the key question is: what can the international David Miliband: The hon. Gentleman is right that the community do to ensure that Israel implements in practice United States has a pivotal role in promoting a peace its obligations under international agreements? process and a peace plan for the middle east. I think he will agree with me that the determination of the Obama David Miliband: That is indeed a key question—or Administration to engage on this issue from day one the key question. Defence Minister Barak is in Washington has been a welcome contrast to the rather belated or New York today for talks with former Senator Mitchell. interest in the middle east which has been shown by That is a key part of the engagement between the previous Administrations. Before 20 January, the European United States and Israel in preparation for further countries unanimously asked for that engagement, and development of the American peace plan. We should since then the stance of the US Administration has see how those talks go, but my hon. Friend is absolutely been clear, principled and forceful. I welcome that right to say that a settlement freeze is now universally wholeheartedly. recognised as absolutely key to progress. 155 Oral Answers30 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 156

Helmand Province this House and elsewhere that the development of a trusted Afghan police force is perhaps the major challenge, 8. Mr. Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth, East) (Con): or certainly one of the major challenges, that we face. What his most recent assessment is of the effectiveness The appointment of some of the new district governors of the provincial reconstruction team in Helmand under Governor Mangal in Helmand is making a sincere province. [282694] and real difference in that province, but to claim that things are better than patchy would be an exaggeration. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth The issue is certainly a priority that we intend to pursue. Affairs (David Miliband): The provincial reconstruction team’s mission in Helmand is to help the Afghan Mr. Keith Simpson (Mid-Norfolk) (Con): Many hon. Government to deliver effective governance and security. Members think that the Foreign Secretary’s comments The number of UK civilian staff working on a joint about progress in Helmand province are optimistic. civilian-military operation has more than doubled since Recently, a lot more effort has been made in that area, 2008 to more than 80, and all of them are delivering but NGOs, hon. Members, and military and civilian tangible results for the people of Helmand. The PRT experts believe that it is ludicrous that less than 10 per has helped to built nearly 2,000 wells, benefiting more cent. of British aid to Afghanistan goes to Helmand than 400,000 people. It has contributed to 160 district province. I draw the Foreign Secretary’s attention to an infrastructure projects, reaching more than 300,000 families, article by an Army officer published in the most recent and provided paid work for nearly 19,000 people. issue of the British Army Review, entitled “AComprehensive Failure: British Civil-Military Strategy in Helmand Mr. Ellwood: In the Opposition day debate on Iraq Province”. We are catching up very slowly indeed. I am last week, the right hon. Member for Birmingham, afraid to say that although there has been a loss of Ladywood (Clare Short), a former Secretary of State British military personnel, and there are threats to the for International Development, admitted that she lives of brave British civilians, the British Government deliberately instructed her Department to have nothing have so far failed to pull together a comprehensive to do with the Ministry of Defence or the Foreign and strategy. I am afraid, Foreign Secretary, that it has been Commonwealth Office in the drawing up of reconstruction a failure. plans once the war fighting had stopped in March 2003. With no plan, chaos ensued for many years. We are now David Miliband: I think that the denigration of the in our seventh year in Afghanistan. As US assistance is efforts of the people on the ground, who have, as the required in Helmand province, it seems that there are IPPR report says, led the way on improving civilian-military still lessons to be learned from Iraq. Is it not time stabilisation efforts is beneath the hon. Gentleman. The there was a major overhaul of how the MOD, the FCO truth is that we pay our development aid through the and the Department for International Development Afghan Government, according to the best practice of conduct modern stabilisation operations, as outlined in international development around the world. We are recommendation 16 in a powerful Institute for Public not seeking to establish a British county in Helmand. Policy Research report issued today? We are supporting indigenous efforts, led by Governor Mangal, to build reconstruction as well as security in David Miliband: That is indeed a good IPPR report, that province. As for the founding facts that I mentioned, which fully endorses the idea of a joint civilian-military facts are neither optimistic nor pessimistic. I offered no operation in Afghanistan. That has been pioneered by optimism or pessimism. I recited facts about the number the DFID-FCO-MOD liaison in Helmand province. Of of people who have been helped by the efforts of the course, as I have discussed with the hon. Gentleman on provincial reconstruction team. I also said to the hon. a number of occasions across the Dispatch Box, we Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood), who should always seek to learn lessons and improve the has taken a long-standing interest in this matter, that operation, but I hope that he will agree that the shared there are a number of areas in which we all need to do leadership across the traditional civilian-military divide better, led by the Afghan authorities, and that is what in our operation in Helmand is indeed the right way we are determined to do. forward. I hope that he will also agree that the bravery Sri Lanka of the civilian aid workers and diplomats, alongside that of the military, has made a difference. As for 9. Mr. Malcolm Moss (North-East Cambridgeshire) whether there is further to go, of course there is, and we (Con): What his most recent assessment is of the human will certainly look at the IPPR report and other ideas— rights situation in Sri Lanka; and if he will make a including those of the hon. Gentleman, because he has statement. [282695] experience in this respect—in order to take the matter forward. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Ivan Lewis): We remain concerned at continuing Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): reports of abductions, disappearances, violence and Reconstruction cannot happen unless we have security. intimidation against the media, all of which appear to Security requires a national military and a national affect Tamil communities disproportionately. We raise police force. Is the Secretary of State satisfied with the these issues regularly in international forums and with progress that we have made in supporting and building the Government of Sri Lanka and call upon them to up the Afghan national police force in Helmand? take decisive action to tackle human rights abuses. David Miliband: No—or rather, I am satisfied that we Mr. Moss: Does the Minister agree that after 25 years have made an awful lot of effort, but I am not satisfied of bloody conflict in Sri Lanka, any reasonable Government with overall progress, for obvious reasons. My hon. would reach out to the defeated community, not incarcerate Friend will know from the debates that we have had in about 300,000 Tamils, many of them children and the 157 Oral Answers30 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 158 elderly, in squalid and inhumane detention camps? What Chris Bryant: I think that the hon. Lady wrote that are the Government doing to improve humanitarian question before the Council meeting, when it was made conditions in those camps? More important in the clear that there would be no fiscal implications for the longer term, what are the Government doing to persuade UK and that we would be able to maintain our the Sri Lankan Government to close down the camps competitiveness. Most of the City has welcomed the entirely and allow those innocent people to return to fact that we need to make sure that across the whole their homes and families? European Union there is a proper system of risk management so that we can compete with the rest of the Mr. Lewis: Since last year we have made sure that a world. total of £12.5 million of humanitarian assistance has gone specifically to deal with the displaced civilians. We Tom Levitt (High Peak) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend have made it clear that we want the UN and humanitarian agree that the Lisbon agenda is about setting up the agencies to have full access to those civilians. But as the mechanism whereby Europe can effectively tackle the hon. Gentleman said, the long-term solution is political. problems of the international economy, of trade and of On the political direction that the president of Sri Lanka the environment by bringing together mainstream groups has indicated towards a new inclusive Sri Lanka, we from every country? That is the way forward, rather have to see step-by-step evidence of action. There have than opting out to the fringe—lunatic and otherwise— been encouraging words since the conflict was brought which is the Opposition’s policy. to a close, but confidence-building measures on the ground are now needed to demonstrate that the Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend makes a fair point. The Government of Sri Lanka are serious about a new most important point, surely, is that we know that, as a inclusive country where Tamils and other minorities country, we do not have a hermetically sealed economy. feel that they have an authentic voice and equal status. Our economy is reliant on trade with other countries throughout the European Union, and if we are not to undermine that trade, we have to ensure that there are Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): I thank the strong economies throughout the whole continent. That Minister for what he just said. Does he agree that the is precisely what the European Council is doing. continued incarceration of large numbers of Tamil people in refugee camps is a form of imprisonment, and that Mr. Mark Francois (Rayleigh) (Con): Given today’s denying the right to return home is illegal under remarkable legal judgment in Germany to suspend international law? Will he make it clear to the Sri Lankan ratification, it is a great shame that the original question Government that they must not try to resettle the Tamil was not about the Lisbon treaty. But as it is not, I shall people outside their traditional homelands, villages and observe that the Lisbon agenda was intended to make towns, in order to bring about some degree of stability the EU the most competitive and dynamic knowledge-based in the future? economy in the world by 2010—and that with one year to go, there is clearly a lot still to do. Will the Minister Mr. Lewis: My hon. Friend is right. The first test of assure us that there will be no weakening of the British the good intentions and political will of the Government position on our critical opt-out from the working time of Sri Lanka is how they treat the displaced civilians. It directive, which is now used by 15 EU countries and is imperative that those people return home as soon as directly affects some 3 million people in this country possible and that they are given the opportunity to alone? begin to rebuild their lives. That will be the greatest evidence that things are changing for people on the Chris Bryant: As the hon. Gentleman did not ask ground in that country. about Germany’s Constitutional Court judgment today— because you, Mr. Speaker, would not have allowed him Lisbon Agenda to do so under this question—I shall not answer today that, of course, that is a matter for Germany, and not for the United Kingdom to reply to. However, I can say 10. Nadine Dorries (Mid-Bedfordshire) (Con): What to him that of course we need to ensure that our recent discussions he has had in the General Affairs opt-outs stand firm, and that is precisely what we Council on progress on the Lisbon agenda; and if he intend to do. will make a statement. [282697] Topical Questions The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Chris Bryant): The Lisbon T1. [282712] Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) agenda was not discussed at the recent General Affairs (LD): If he will make a statement on his departmental Council. However, the incoming Swedish presidency responsibilities. and the forthcoming Spanish presidency have indicated their intention to progress work on the EU’s next strategy The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth for sustainable jobs and growth as a successor to the Affairs (David Miliband): I hope that the House will current strategy, which expires in 2010. join me in welcoming the UN Secretary-General’s determination to visit Burma this week. The political Nadine Dorries: As the Lisbon agenda is supposed and human rights situation in the country is dire and to be about economic competitiveness, why are the demands the world’s attention. Ban Ki-moon’s personal Government consenting to proposals for a pan-European engagement underscores the concern of the international financial regulator which could threaten the competitiveness community. It presents an opportunity for the military of the City of London? Government to respond to those concerns by releasing 159 Oral Answers30 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 160

Aung San Suu Kyi and all other political prisoners, and either been held there in the past or are being held there by beginning a credible and inclusive dialogue that now? Will my right hon. Friend take some action on leads to political reconciliation and a new start for that important issue? Burma. David Miliband: Obviously, this is a US issue, not a Mr. Carmichael: I certainly wish to associate myself UK issue. All detainees taken under British control are with the Foreign Secretary’s remarks, but may I take his governed by our memorandum of understanding with attention back to Iran, and in particular to the situation the Afghan authorities, which requires the passing of facing the seven Baha’i spiritual leaders who have been detainees to those authorities. I think that the US in detention for more than a year and are apparently to Administration themselves have made clear their stand trial on 11 July, whose lawyers are reported to determination to get to the bottom of the issue of have suffered intimidation, and who do not yet know detainee treatment at Bagram. A review by the US the nature or the number of charges against them? Will authorities is currently under way, and we look forward the Foreign Secretary bring pressure to bear from this to its being concluded as soon as possible. country and others to ensure that their trial conforms to T4. [282715] Mr. Hugo Swire (East Devon) (Con): Three the principles of natural justice? armoured vehicles financed by the UK taxpayer David Miliband: The hon. Gentleman raises an important destined for use by the UN in Gaza have been refused point. We have long spoken up about the treatment of entry. Ludicrously, they have incurred more than the Baha’i minority; they were featured in the Foreign £40,000 in storage charges at an Israeli customs depot. Office’s human rights report, and he is right to draw What discussions has the Foreign Secretary had with attention to the importance of the events on 11 July and the Israeli Government about getting that situation beyond. resolved? David Miliband: The hon. Gentleman raises an important T2. [282713] JulieMorgan(Cardiff,North)(Lab):Given point. I raised precisely this issue with Foreign Minister the information that only two people will be able to Lieberman when he came to London six or seven weeks testify in defence of Aung San Suu Kyi, and given the ago. I understood that there had been some progress, mockery of the trial in Burma, what more can the but on the basis of the question that the hon. Gentleman Government do about that event? has asked, I shall be happy to write to him as soon as David Miliband: It is a cruel irony that the regime possible to give him the latest position. He is absolutely should have tried to schedule the next date of the trial right to say that the vehicles are needed for humanitarian for this Thursday—the day that Secretary-General Ban delivery purposes. They are essential, they are from the Ki-moon goes to Burma. Our best hope is to support British taxpayer, and there is no reason why they should his mission and to be absolutely clear that there is not be taken out of their compound and delivered as unanimous support for it from the international community. soon as possible. We very much hope that either he will come back with Ms Karen Buck (Regent’s Park and Kensington, North) progress or the Security Council will return to the issue. (Lab): Neither the Palestinian people nor the middle east peace process are well served by divisions among T3. [282714] Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory (Wells) (Con): the Palestinian voices. Does my right hon. Friend agree Will the Department pay particular attention to the that the failure to respond to the humanitarian crisis dangers of nuclear proliferation, and does it think it and the desperate need for reconstruction in Gaza are strange that this country continues to give a lot of doing exactly what is not in the interests of the Israeli foreign aid to countries that are building nuclear weapons? Government either—fuelling militancy and creating disunity In particular, is the Department aware that the biggest among the Palestinian voices? Will he therefore redouble single recipient of British aid is a country with a nuclear his efforts to bring pressure to bear on Israel to allow weapons programme, a space programme, a development humanitarian and reconstruction aid into that living programme of its own and more billionaires than we prison? have, who own substantial chunks of British industry? I am referring to India. David Miliband: I am happy to redouble my redoubled efforts. My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that David Miliband: I thought that the right hon. Gentleman the closure of the crossing serves no one except those was going to cite our support for Pakistan; if he was in who want to say that there can be no peaceful resolution. fear of radicalisation, I would have one answer. In I think that she would also agree, however, that the respect of India, he will know that British aid now divisions among the Palestinians themselves are an amounts to about £240 million over this spending review important impediment that needs to be overcome. That period, but it is on a declining trend, and by 2011 will is why we strongly support the Egyptian-led reconciliation have stopped, not because of the Indian nuclear programme process, in which I know that she has taken an interest. but because India is becoming a richer country. It is clear from international development legislation since T5. [282717] Danny Alexander (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch 1997 that development aid should be directed according and Strathspey) (LD): Is the Foreign Secretary aware to poverty, and that is the basis on which India is that among the appalling abuses perpetrated by the pulling itself away from aid, according to its own wealth- Iranian regime is its record on executing children? generating potential. According to a report to be published today by the Foreign Policy Centre, in the past five years 33 children Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): What discussions have been executed, and a further 160 juveniles are on has my right hon. Friend had with his US counterparts death row. Will he work through international bodies on the BBC’s allegations of prisoner abuse at Bagram to put pressure on the Iranian regime to end that air base? Is it not a fact that two British prisoners have abhorrent practice? 161 Oral Answers30 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 162

David Miliband: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman there was a common view between the Iranian Government has drawn attention to the excellent work of the Foreign and ISAF on how to deal with the Taliban. Does my Policy Centre, especially in this regard. The number of right hon. Friend agree that that is a very important children executed in Iran was rightly highlighted in the issue, and an area of some common ground? Foreign Office’s human rights report. Not only does this run directly contrary to all sorts of humanitarian David Miliband: Iran certainly has a very strong considerations, but Iran is a signatory to the international interest in counter-narcotics work there. Until I have covenant on civil and political rights; that at least, if more details of what my hon. Friend thinks the Iranians nothing else, should guarantee proper safety for the said to ISAF, I think I should restrain my comments on children. that, but Iran certainly has the potential to contribute to stability in Afghanistan, and we should certainly Mr. David Clelland (Tyne Bridge) (Lab): Will the work with it on that prospect. Foreign Secretary update the House on the situation with regard to the Turks and Caicos Islands? Sir Menzies Campbell (North-East Fife) (LD): Last Notwithstanding the serious problems that have arisen week, the Foreign Secretary repeated the Prime Minister’s there, does he agree that it would be far better for Her claim that the Iraq inquiry had not been set up to Majesty’s Government to work with the new democratic establish civil or criminal liability. Does that mean that Government than to take the draconian step of returning the Government propose to grant legal immunity to any the islands to colonial rule, which would be unpopular witness who gives evidence to the inquiry—and if so, by not only in TCI but right across the wider Caribbean? what means? David Miliband: It is important that we make sure David Miliband: I remember no discussion of legal that there is no corruption in the Turks and Caicos immunity in our debate last week. We have a clear Islands. I pay tribute to the report by the Foreign mandate for Sir John Chilcot to pursue a wide-ranging Affairs Committee on this matter, which pointed us to inquiry. He will do so, and I hope that he will publish in the process that has led, first, to an interim report, and the not-too-distant future his views on how he is going secondly to a final report, which we hope to publish to conduct his inquiry, covering all the issues that were soon. It would be wholly inappropriate for us to take no raised in the debate last week. That is the right next step. action whatsoever with regard to very serious issues Martin Linton (Battersea) (Lab): In view of the Secretary that have been highlighted by the commissioner. of State’s view, now shared by the US and clearly restated a few moments ago, that settlements are the T6. [282720] Mr.ShaileshVara(North-WestCambridgeshire) (Con): Two years ago, I asked the then Prime Minister absolute key to progress, and in view of Israel’s repeated why Britain was providing training for members of the refusal to institute a freeze on settlement building, does Sudanese military. I was told that it was part of a peace the Minister agree that the stalemate can be broken only agreement that had been signed in January 2005. Given if a sanction of some kind is imposed on the Israeli that the whole peace process in Sudan is now in total Government for their defiance of international law? disarray, that President Bashir has been indicted by the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth International Criminal Court and that Darfuris and Office (Mr. Ivan Lewis): We have made it clear that, as other minorities continue to be persecuted, does the my hon. Friend says, settlements are illegal and a major Foreign Secretary believe that it is time to review our impediment to peace. We are encouraged by the fact military obligations to that vile regime? that President Obama’s speech in Cairo was seen as David Miliband: I certainly think that it is time that such a significant development, and we regard Prime the Foreign Secretary reviewed the exchange that the Minister Netanyahu’s response as a step forward, although hon. Gentleman had with the former Prime Minister only a small one. At this stage in such a delicate process, two years ago and then updated him on our reflections the question of sanctions may be best put on hold. on it. One has to be slightly careful about saying that However, our feelings about settlements are clear: the comprehensive peace agreement has completely failed, settlements are illegal, and they are getting in the way of because that is what is holding the situation together, to the peace process. the extent that it is held together at all. Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): Regarding The Minister of State from the Sudanese Government the seven Baha’i leaders detained in Iran, may I ask the was in Trieste with me last Friday, and one thing that Foreign Secretary whether he will meet me, as the chair the UK Government have prioritised is the maintenance, of the all-party Baha’i group, and a delegation of development and implementation of the CPA, which is Baha’is, to understand the issues and see what the only basis for legitimate government in Sudan. representations might respectfully be made to secure However, I take the hon. Gentleman’s point that in no their release? way should the UK Government support vile regimes, and will we certainly look into that. David Miliband: I am happy to arrange a ministerial meeting with one of my colleagues on that important Mr. Speaker: Order. We have just over five minutes to issue. go and I want to accommodate as many hon. Members as possible, so I am now looking for short questions and Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): The Foreign Secretary economical answers. has registered his concern about the announcement yesterday of the Israeli Defence Ministry’s plans in Mr. Doug Henderson (Newcastle upon Tyne, North) respect of Adam. Is he further concerned that the (Lab): When I was in Afghanistan with the European overall master plan is for 1,450 units there and involves Security and Defence Assembly slightly more than three the immediate relocation of 50 hard-line settler families weeks ago, the commanders in the international security from Migron? Beyond the screensaver diplomacy and assistance force made it clear to me that in many ways the backing vocals for George Mitchell in the House, 163 Oral Answers30 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 164 what clear, strong message will go to the Israeli Government, case that he raises, but I spoke—not recently but some and what reliable and credible message will go to the time ago—to the Thai Foreign Minister, and I shall be Palestinian Authority? happy to get an update from our embassy in Thailand about the latest Thai effort. The hon. Gentleman is David Miliband: I think that Senator Mitchell’s efforts right to say that Thailand has an important role to play. are far more than screensaver diplomacy, because they are backed by the President of the United States and Paul Flynn (Newport, West) (Lab): The deployment have the wholehearted support of the European Union, of British troops in Helmand province in 2006 was once never mind the Quartet, along with a battery of UN described as being as futile as the charge of the Light Security Council resolutions. That is why people are Brigade. At that time seven soldiers had died; now the now talking about a middle east peace plan, not just a figure is 169—far more than died in the charge of the process—or another process—that fails to deliver. I Light Brigade. What has happened in that impossible share the hon. Gentleman’s sense of urgency and frustration war to justify the loss of 169 brave British lives? about the issue, but I believe that there is now a more united international effort than has existed previously. David Miliband: My hon. Friend is right to pay It needs to be brought to fruition. tribute to the bravery, intelligence and skill of our servicemen and women in Helmand. They have made a Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): The excellent huge difference in that province, which was previously charity Kidz In Kampz, which is based in my constituency, ungoverned space. As I said earlier, there is still a long reports increasing difficulty in delivering aid on the way to go, but the help that people are getting, the Burma-Thailand border because of political turmoil. security forces that have been established, and the role As well as putting pressure on Burma, what discussions that Governor Mangal has played in political leadership has the Foreign Secretary held with the Thai authorities for that province would not exist without the efforts of in trying to read that difficult situation? our troops and their supporters. The further intensive activity as a result of American efforts in neighbouring David Miliband: The hon. Gentleman makes an provinces means that the next few months will be important important point. He knows that in the wake of Cyclone in Helmand, as well as in the rest of Afghanistan. Voter Nargis, the UK was the second largest donor to registration has happened for 85 per cent. of the population humanitarian help in Burma. We think that that was of Helmand, which would have been impossible before the right thing to do. I was not aware of the particular 2006. 165 30 JUNE 2009 21st Century Schools 166

21st Century Schools are unhappy with the choice of schools on offer to them, local authorities will have to listen to and respond to their concerns, based on an annual survey of parents. 3.32 pm Because all parents want their children to learn at an The Secretary of State for Children, Schools and orderly school, where they are safe from bullying and Families (Ed Balls): May I take this opportunity to lessons are not disrupted by bad behaviour, we will now welcome you, Mr. Speaker, to your position and legislate to strengthen home-school agreements, so that congratulate you on your elevation? all pupils and parents will accept the school’s rules Over the past 12 years, school standards have risen when they apply for a school place and will be expected significantly in our country, and our education system to sign up to renew their commitment every year; schools has changed beyond recognition. The number of secondary will have stronger powers to enforce discipline through schools with at least 30 per cent. of pupils failing to intensive support, parenting contracts and parenting achieve five good GCSEs, including English and maths, orders; and parents will have the right to complain and has fallen from over half in 1997 to just one in seven expect action if schools fail to act to enforce the home- schools today. We now have more than 40,000 more school agreement. teachers, backed up by more than 200,000 more support Building on the success of the literacy and numeracy staff. We now also have 200 national leaders of education, hours of the national strategies, which will continue in compared with none in 1997. all schools, with Ofsted continuing to inspect them as Our best state schools now match the best schools in now, we will devolve power and funding to school the private sector and anywhere in the world. The leaders to decide, with ring-fenced funding, what support reason is that we have rebuilt the school system on a they need, school by school, to drive up standards foundation of sustained record investment, matched by further. We will also ensure that schools can get the tough accountability. That is why we can now go further support that they need from other services through and transform our school system to meet the challenges children’s trust boards and encourage multi-agency teams of the 21st century. based in schools. The new chair of our independent Our country faces an economic imperative, because bureaucracy watchdog will review any unnecessary obstacles every young person now needs skills and qualifications that get in the way of delivery. Building on the success to succeed, and a moral imperative, because every child of our national leaders in education and academies and young person has potential and can do well with programmes, we will now act so that our best head the right help and support. It is to meet those twin teachers can run more than one school, with better pay imperatives that I am today publishing our 21st century for executive heads. We will accredit high-performing schools White Paper, based on new guarantees for pupils schools, colleges and universities to run chains of schools and parents; a significant devolution of power and in not-for-profit accredited schools groups, with the responsibility to our school leaders, matched by first providers up and running by January. Already nine strengthened school accountability; and an uncompromising schools, one multi-academy sponsor, four colleges and approach to school improvement, because we want four universities, including today Nottingham university, every child to succeed and we will never give up on any have come forward, and I am today setting aside funds child. over the next years to support their growth. First, we will now legislate for our pupil guarantee, to We will match this transformation in school leadership ensure: that all young people get a broad and balanced with a transformation in school accountability. School curriculum and high-quality qualifications, whether their league tables are easy to read, but because they present strengths are practical, academic or both; that every a narrow view of performance, based solely on the secondary pupil has a personal tutor; that all pupils get attainment of the average pupil, they cannot provide five hours of PE and sport every week and access to the full picture that parents need. Our new school cultural activities; that gifted and talented pupils get report card will include full information on school written confirmation of the extra challenge and support attainment, but will go beyond that. It will set out that they will receive; that all pupils with additional clearly for parents how the school is improving standards needs get extra help, with 4,000 extra dyslexia teachers; and how well it is helping those pupils who fall behind and that all pupils in years 3 to 6 who are falling behind to catch up and stretching the most able. The school in English or maths get one-to-one tuition to help them report card will also report on discipline, attendance, to get back on track. We will now extend the offer of sport, healthy eating and partnership working, and set one-to-one or small-group tuition to all pupils at the out what parents and pupils think of the school. We will start of secondary school who were behind at the end of begin pilots of our school report card this September, primary school. Following the report of the expert but although we will consult further, I am now convinced group on assessment, we will now introduce a new that if parents, newspapers and websites are to make progress check at the end of year 7, so that parents can fair, clear and easy-to-understand comparisons between be confident that their child has made up the lost schools, our school report card will need to include a ground. single, overall grade. Our new parents’ guarantee will ensure that all parents As a world-class schools system needs a world-class get regular online information about their child’s progress, work force, we are making teaching a masters-level behaviour and attendance. It will also ensure access to profession, and we will now introduce a new licence to their child’s personal tutor and fair school admissions teach, similar to that used by other high-status professionals in line with the admissions code, as well as ensuring that such as doctors and lawyers. Teachers will need to keep parents’ views will be listened to and reported in the their practice up to date to renew their licence, and they school report card, so that all parents know what other will be given a new entitlement for continued professional parents think when choosing a school. Where parents development. We will start with newly qualified teachers 167 21st Century Schools30 JUNE 2009 21st Century Schools 168

[Ed Balls] It has nothing original to offer, so it serves up old material that flopped on first appearance simply to fill beginning their training this September, those returning the airwaves. As it is with the BBC, so it is with the to teaching from September 2010 and all supply teachers Secretary of State. No wonder this document is printed shortly afterwards. We will make governing bodies slimmer on recycled paper. Indeed, the White Paper is about as and more highly skilled, and require all chairs to undergo original, fresh and innovative as the Secretary of State’s specific training. performances on the BBC’s “Today” programme. The primary responsibility for school improvement May I ask the Secretary of State why he is today lies with head teachers and governing bodies, including offering one-to-one catch-up tuition, personal tutors their chairs, but where progress is too slow and performance for all pupils, and tuition groups for those in secondary does not improve, local authorities have a responsibility schools as though those proposals were new and exciting, to act. Since we set out our national challenge and our when in June 2007, the Prime Minister promised one-to-one coasting schools challenge, local authorities have drawn catch-up tuition, personal tutors for all pupils, and up improvement plans and we have already announced tuition groups for those in secondary schools? And he 55 new academies and 27 national challenge trusts. has still failed to deliver. I know that the Secretary of Today, I am giving the go-ahead to two new academies, State relishes his role as the Government’s attack puppy, in Halton and in Redcar and Cleveland, and confirming and his special vocation as the Prime Minister’s “mini-me”, funding agreements for two further academies in but when will he realise that simply repeating the same Nottingham and Hertfordshire—all replacing national old nonsense over and over again ad nauseam has not challenge schools. exactly helped the Prime Minister to new heights of Some argue that where underperformance is entrenched, popularity, and it will not help him? where locally led change is not working and where In the White Paper, the Secretary of State pledges to excuses are being made, the right approach is to stand guarantee a whole series of high-falutin’ promises on back, to let schools wither and slowly decline, and to better discipline and higher standards, and says that he allow the children and young people in those schools to will legislate to ensure that every school delivers its legal pay the price. I disagree. I believe that the Government obligation. Is it not the case, however, that every time have a responsibility to step in and demand improvement. this Government have introduced a law saying that I will not shirk that responsibility. something wonderful must be delivered, it is only because Following Ofsted’s December 2008 assessment of they have demonstrably failed to deliver that goal in the Milton Keynes, which found children’s services there to last 12 years? We have a new law saying that child be inadequate, with serious weaknesses in secondary poverty must be abolished by 2020, because the Government school attainment and improvement, we commissioned have failed to hit their target of halving child poverty by an independent performance review. The review concluded 2010. We also have a new law compelling public bodies that, despite some progress, urgent improvement was to promote equality, because this Government have still required. The Children’s Minister has today written presided over a catastrophic drop in social mobility and to the council in Milton Keynes, directing it under a widening gap has opened up between the poorest and section 497A of the Education Act 1996 immediately to the rest. appoint Mr. Peter Kemp to chair an independent Now we have new laws to guarantee to every child improvement board that will report directly to Ministers, better discipline, even though school discipline is running and to submit and agree an improvement plan. out of control, with 425,000 pupils suspended last year, The Schools Minister and I are concerned about the 200,000 of them for violence, and with 100,000 teachers rate of progress in Leicester, where we issued an having left the profession in disgust. We also have new improvement notice last June. So I am today asking laws to guarantee every child higher standards, even Sir Mike Tomlinson, the chair of our national challenge though we are falling down the PISA—programme for expert advisers, to provide us with a progress report in international student assessment— international league September. On the basis of his report on Leicester and tables for achievement and the gap between independent of this summer’s results, we will consider whether further and state schools is widening. action is needed. I am also asking our expert advisers today to work Is it not the case that we do not need new laws, new with Blackpool and Gloucestershire—areas that need entitlements and new guarantees? We need a new to make more progress—to identify what more needs to Government. All the good ideas in this White Paper are be done to deliver the national challenge and to report Tory ideas. Let us take enforceable home-school contracts. back to me on progress in September. If this year’s When the idea was put forward, the Secretary of State exam results reveal serious weaknesses in those areas, or said: in any other area of the country, I will do whatever it “I do not think a commitment to helping children to read and takes to secure the progress of children and young people. behave well should be put in a contract”. With this White Paper, we match continued investment His junior said: with reform and higher expectations, so that we can “The Home School Agreement should not be a contract forced meet the economic imperative by ensuring that every on parents”. young person gets the qualifications they need, and so But today we have enforceable home-school contracts that we can meet our moral imperative by ensuring that with penalties for recalcitrant parents—Tory ideas winning every child can succeed, whatever barriers they face. I the argument. commend this statement to the House. I very much regret that we have not had more influence Michael Gove (Surrey Heath) (Con): I thank the on the Secretary of State. We have been calling for less Secretary of State for his statement. This is high summer, bureaucracy for teachers, for example, but in this document the season when the BBC’s screens are filled with repeats. there are just four brief paragraphs on cutting red tape, 169 21st Century Schools30 JUNE 2009 21st Century Schools 170 with just two suggestions—a new cross-disciplinary review to open one new school a day for the next 10 years—the and a new quango. I ask why, on parental choice, the proposal from the Conservative party. I have to say that Secretary of State has nothing worth while to say. When I looked at that with interest, but at the weekend, I read parents are denied a good choice of school, he proposes in The Sunday Times that according to “insiders” in the a survey, then an opinion poll, then a consultation, then Conservative party, the policy was “in disarray”, and a plan and then further consultation. By the time all that a senior Conservative had said: that happens, the children denied a good choice of “I have not met anyone who understands the policy and don’t school will be drawing their pension. This Secretary of understand how we have a hope of explaining it on the doorstep”. State has never seen a bureaucracy he did not want to The Conservative party is hoping that no one understands protect and entrench in its complacency. it, because if people did understand it they would I hope that there is one other area on which the understand the chaos and the cuts that would ensue. Government will U-turn—their proposals for school report cards. We have outlined plans for sharper The last time the hon. Gentleman and I faced each accountability, with tests for which one cannot cram other across the Dispatch Box, it was my job that was and proper robust and reliable league tables. Today, supposedly in doubt. I have to say that I think it is his however, the Government propose abolishing league job that is in doubt now. His colleagues are whispering tables altogether and replacing them with fuzzy behind him, and his policy is in disarray. It is our party measurements of perception, well-being and partnership that will deliver for every child and every school in our working. Parents will be left in the dark about which country, and that is why ours is the party that is leading schools are failing. the charge for higher standards in the future. Is it not the case that this Secretary of State has run out of ideas, run out of money and run out of time? Mr. David Laws (Yeovil) (LD): I welcome you to your Should he not make way for a party ready to reform, act new responsibilities, Mr. Speaker. I also thank the Secretary on discipline, back parental choice and focus remorselessly, of State for allowing me advance sight of the statement at last, on higher standards for all? and the White Paper. Ed Balls: I was waiting to hear the alternative policy We welcome the licence to teach and the principle of programme from the shadow Education Secretary, but the school report card—provided that it is not diluted there was nothing on offer—just the normal well- rehearsed by a fuzzy focus on issues of partnership, which I think speech, well written in advance; I guess that if one is would detract from its ability to hold schools more charging £1,250 an hour, the script has to be well effectively to account—but I want to ask the Secretary written. The fact is that we have set out one-to-one of State about the two issues that give us the greatest commitments and we are now delivering 300,000 more cause for concern. I refer to the issue of how all the places next year. It is this Government who are taking proposals are to be funded, and the issue of what I forward the commitment to one-to-one teaching. thought was supposed to be the Prime Minister’s big As for discipline, we introduced parenting contracts idea yesterday: the idea of moving from a system of and parenting orders; we have had more than 50,000 targets to one of entitlements. parenting contracts and more than 8,000 parenting We saw this morning how the White Paper had been orders to enforce discipline—and because it has worked, spun by the Government across the media. The BBC we are now going to extend it and make it more effective, website, for instance, speaks of so we can deliver what parents want. They want their “legally enforceable rights to schemes such as one-to-one tuition”. children’s lessons not to be disrupted by bad discipline so that children can get on and learn and teachers Yesterday we heard about the right of exit to the private can get on and teach. That is exactly what we are going health sector that would be given to people who were to do. not seen rapidly as NHS patients. However, I am not We are making it very clear that we are going to sure what has happened to that idea of entitlements. reduce bureaucracy where it gets in the way, while at the The Secretary of State’s statement made no mention of same time we are going to extend parental choice and parental entitlements, and as for the paper that the allow a greater parental voice. As for the school report Prime Minister issued yesterday, not only has it nothing card and the idea that we are taking information away, to say about people’s rights to leave the NHS and the people who want to reduce accountability and the obtain private treatment if their entitlements are not reliability of information, and who are proposing or being delivered, but on the issue of enforcement of pretending to abolish key stage 2 tests, are the Conservatives, entitlements to one-to-one tuition, it states that not the Labour party. “we will not legislate” I looked at other representations regarding the White for Paper. I considered whether we should hold back for a “redress… through the courts.” further year in primary school children who failed to make the grade, but I decided that that would be a bad That appears directly to contradict the spin that we idea, and I therefore rejected it. I considered whether were given this morning. pupils who failed the year 7 test should be sent back to Perhaps the Secretary of State can explain—in the primary school, as proposed by the Conservative party, context of education and, if he wishes, in wider contexts but I rejected that idea. I considered whether we should as well—whether the idea of entitlement is meaningful abolish key stage 2 tests, and decided that we should and will give extra power to consumers of public services, not, because it would be a bad idea. or whether it is a bit of spin. If it is not a bit of spin, Most of all, I considered the Swedish model and the how will parents denied access to one-to-one tuition for idea that the way to deliver school improvement is to their children exercise their right to ensure that it is try, by diverting £4.5 billion from school building budgets, received? 171 21st Century Schools30 JUNE 2009 21st Century Schools 172

[Mr. David Laws] We have also set out a September guarantee. That will mean that this September every young person leaving Our other major concern is, of course, the extent to school will be guaranteed a place in school or college, or which the Secretary of State’s proposals can be funded. an apprenticeship. I can now make that September He has promised one-to-one tuition for what could turn guarantee only because I have made some difficult out to be 20 per cent. of the seven to 11-year-old choices to shift £650 million from parts of my budgets cohort—the youngsters who are falling below national and individual agencies to fund the 55,000 places that I standards. Is the money really there to deliver that? The need to meet it. I do not know whether the hon. Government promised a year ago that they would deliver Gentleman supports that guarantee, but I hope that he one-to-one tuition, and they promised 30,000 places, and his party can make it clear that they do. What I do but we now know that they delivered only 3,500. know is that other parties in this House will not match The Secretary of State has been notably active—more that September guarantee. The reason why is that if active, perhaps, than the Chancellor of the Exchequer they make efficiency savings, the first call on resources over the last couple of weeks—in talking about the is not young people getting school, college and Government’s public expenditure plans. However, he apprenticeship places; it is an inheritance tax cut that has apparently been unwilling to accept that his own will go to the 3,000 richest estates and cost billions and budget’s real level of expenditure will decline between billions of pounds. this year and next year, or that, despite his efforts That is the choice in politics; that is the funding issue. generously to give away part of his capital budget for I hope the hon. Gentleman will support me. Tough home building, the Building Schools for the Future choices are needed to invest in the future of our country, programme will be entirely undeliverable in its existing our children and our young people, not simply to give form against a background of 50 per cent. cuts in tax cuts to a small number of millionaires. That is the capital expenditure across all areas of Government. If choice in values, that is the choice in policy, and that is we are really expected to believe that some of the the choice for the future of our country. aspirations in the White Paper will be fulfilled, will the Secretary of State tell us how on earth they will be Several hon. Members rose— funded in the light of the cuts that would have to be made on the basis of existing public expenditure plans? Mr. Speaker: Order. Twenty-nine Members are seeking Ed Balls: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s to catch my eye and I am keen to accommodate as many interest in these matters and for the more serious way in of them as possible, but I am looking to each hon. which he has addressed the statement and the White Member to ask one brief supplementary question and Paper. I welcome his support for the idea of the report to the Secretary of State to offer the House a pithy card, and I hope he agrees with me that it will strengthen reply. accountability and provide more information that parents actually want in order for them to understand the Mr. David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside) (Lab): I progress of every child in the school. welcome the Secretary of State’s reaffirmation of the On partnership, it is important that this issue does central role of the literacy and numeracy strategy. In not make the report card fuzzy, but we also know that it reaffirming that, and in devolving the substantial funding is only by schools working together that we can deliver for support and advice, will he agree to kite-mark or good behaviour and strong discipline. Also, as I have accredit those organisations or bodies that will be providing announced today, it is schools working together in support, in order not to drift back into the complete federations that is driving up standards. I think that mess that we had before 1997? when the hon. Gentleman looks at the detail, he will be reassured on this matter. Ed Balls: The fact is that the reason why we have On targets and entitlements, we have announced that made such great progress in numeracy and literacy is on the basis of this White Paper in the next Session we the foundations that were laid by my right hon. Friend will legislate to make the pupil and parent guarantee in the early years of this Government after 1997. He is statutory. That means that it will be set out in law. The right to say that the innovation of the literacy and analogy is the admissions code. We will make sure that numeracy hours were critical, and the role that the in the first instance the parental right to complain is to national strategies played was vital. I think we have won the school through the governing body. There will then that argument. I think we can now make sure that be an independent appeals mechanism, in most cases to schools themselves choose how to commission support, the local government ombudsman, but in some cases to but we will still deliver that literacy and numeracy. We the school adjudicator. If they find against a school, the will deliver those hours, and I will make sure that Secretary of State has power to intervene. This is a legal schools are buying from quality providers that are entitlement, so judicial review is, of course, available as accredited, in order that I can give my right hon. Friend a backstop, but we are not seeking to make this legalistic. the assurance he seeks. We want to make sure that the existing complaints procedures that we are putting in place will work effectively. Mr. Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale, West) (Con): I think we can make this work for both the pupil and The Education Secretary says that he is going to step in the parent guarantee. to demand improvement where schools are failing or On funding, in the financial year 2010-11 we will coasting. Is it not also time that he recognised that spend more than £300 million on delivering one-to-one where schools are succeeding or improving he should or small group tuition for 300,000 children, and we are get out and he should intervene less, and that such currently training 100,000 teachers to teach that one-to-one schools will thrive when they are left to their own tuition. The funding is there. devices? 173 21st Century Schools30 JUNE 2009 21st Century Schools 174

Ed Balls: If the hon. Gentleman had listened to my and to report back to me in September. We will carefully statement, he would have heard me say that this White consider all the points made, and I shall ensure that the Paper devolves substantial power from the centre to points that my hon. Friend raises are included. If we individual head teachers so that they can make their need to act to ensure that not only some schools but all own decisions on how to commission support. However, schools achieve, we will ensure that the action is taken. either we let the market work and children suffer when schools fail or we intervene, and I am determined to Mr. Andrew Mackay (Bracknell) (Con): Mr. Speaker, intervene because I do not agree with the philosophy do you think that the Secretary of State regrets addressing that defines the Conservatives’ approach. the nation this morning on the “Today” programme, because it has meant that very little was added in his Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Will statement and it went completely against your advice to my right hon. Friend agree to come before the Select Ministers? Committee at an early date to talk about this statement and the White Paper? Perhaps he will also agree to a Ed Balls: Anyone who heard the “Today” programme pre-legislative inquiry before we have legislation. Will interview would have found that there was not a single he bear in mind the fact that it does nobody any good to question on education policy and therefore not a single believe that nothing has been proved in education in answer on that matter either. The interview was almost this country over the past 12 years? Will he be very entirely about the Conservative party’s inheritance tax careful about putting too much— cuts and how it was going to pay for them. Today, I have announced proposals in respect of the expert group and Mr. Speaker: Order. I apologise, but I did say very the test in year 7 and on the licence to teach, and I have clearly that Members should ask one brief supplementary proposed the details of the pupil and parent guarantee, question. all of which are new to this House. There have been no Ed Balls: If you will allow me, Mr. Speaker, I should leaks from my Department, and I have been conscious say that this statement builds upon the fundamental at every stage to ensure that I have conformed with reform, which was the Education and Inspections Act 2006. Mr. Speaker’s guidance. It was substantially improved by my hon. Friend the Mr. David Chaytor (Bury, North) (Lab): On Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman) and the work accountability and the school report card, the Secretary of his Committee, so I believe that my Ministers and I of State recognises that measures of progress are more will benefit from the scrutiny and interrogation that we effective than simple raw scores in assessing a school’s will receive when we appear before his Committee in the achievement. Does he agree, however, that the current coming weeks. measure of progress—the value-added score—is still Mr. Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): unintelligible to most parents, and could he simplify it In his statement, the Secretary of State talked about in the new school report card? gifted and talented pupils and the support that they will be given as a result of this White Paper. Can he tell us Ed Balls: I look forward to the scrutiny that we will the current state of the gifted and talented programme receive from the Select Committee. When my hon. that the Government brought in? Friend examines the detailed prospectus of the report card that we published today, he will see that how we Ed Balls: The answer is that 11 years ago the programme measure progress and, in particular, how we contextualise did not exist and now it is flourishing. We will ensure to take advantage of deprivation is crucial. We must get that every parent of every child who is gifted and it right in the report card, and I look forward to his talented receives written confirmation of the support expertise being shone upon this. that they will receive, because we want to stretch every pupil, including those with talents and gifts. Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): I am sure that the Secretary of State is sincere when he says that he will Mr. Parmjit Dhanda (Gloucester) (Lab): I welcome now act so that our best head teachers can run more my right hon. Friend’s remarks about a review of secondary than one school. Will he or the Schools Minister visit education in Gloucestershire, because some of us have my constituency to see the work of the inspirational been calling for such a review for years. Many schools, Mr. Jonathan Tippett, who has transformed three schools particularly those in the comprehensive sector, have and who runs all three of them. Unfortunately, Tory- been let down because of the local obsession in controlled Essex county council plans to shut two of Gloucestershire with purely the grammar school sector. them. Will the Secretary of State visit Colchester? That obsession has led to the comprehensive schools being completely ignored, to there being no trusts and Ed Balls: The last time the hon. Gentleman raised no academies and to the trebling of funding for primary that point was in Prime Minister’s questions, when he schools in rural areas with sparse populations rather managed to secure a meeting with me, through the than for schools that face challenging circumstances in Prime Minister. I think we should have the meeting areas such as my own, which have proximity to those first, and we will consider visits subsequently. comprehensives. Will he ensure that that is considered as part of this review? Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab): Over the past 12 years, I have repeatedly raised my concerns about Ed Balls: I welcome my hon. Friend’s support. The teaching methods. The critical difference between success fact is that that local authority performs well in many and failure in schools is to do with teaching methods ways, but we need to address some worrying issues to do and classroom cultures. How will my right hon. Friend with the national challenge and underperforming schools. address that and, once and for all, determine how we I have asked Sir Graham Badman to produce a report secure the best teaching methods in all our schools? 175 21st Century Schools30 JUNE 2009 21st Century Schools 176

Ed Balls: I am going to build on the reforms that have to move to a new site, which it says has cost £70 million. meant that we have the best generation of teachers we Will he ask Partnerships for Schools to look at the have ever had. I will empower school leaders to ensure debacle in Hammersmith and Fulham and make it that they get the best teaching practice into their schools improve most of its plans? and I will introduce a new licence to teach, which will mean that over time every teacher will be reaccredited Ed Balls: I was in my hon. Friend’s borough this to ensure that they are keeping up to date with best morning and I saw a school that was making real practice. We will match that with personal development progress and working with another school. I understand and training so that every teacher can be world-class. his concerns. Local leadership should ensure that the BSF commitments are delivered, although some authorities Mr. John Gummer (Suffolk, Coastal) (Con): If parents in this country are anticipating the £4.5 billion cut in my constituency find that their children’s statutory promised by the Opposition and are therefore not making rights to one-to-one teaching are not fulfilled, can they plans. I will ensure that the Schools Minister meets my sue and whom do they sue? hon. Friend to ensure that we can move this forward as soon as possible. Ed Balls: I think I answered that question a moment ago. In the first instance, the parents will complain to Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold) (Con): I am the school. There is then an independent complaints concerned that the Secretary of State’s remarks this procedure. If the independent complaints procedure afternoon about Gloucestershire will have a demotivating shows that the children are entitled to one-to-one support effect on hard-working teachers up and down and are not getting it, the school should address that Gloucestershire. Will he confirm that the national challenge immediately. If it does not, parents can appeal to me. In schools that he has mentioned this afternoon are less the final analysis, it can go to judicial review, but I am than a handful out of 42 schools, that Gloucestershire is sure that we will get it sorted out before we get to that the 15th lowest spending authority for education and stage. that, in his own words this afternoon, it produces some very good results? Ms Celia Barlow (Hove) (Lab): I welcome my right hon. Friend’s suggestion that local authorities have a Ed Balls: The difference between us is that the hon. responsibility to act. How will he assist them and make Gentleman is willing to dismiss the handful of schools them act in Hove where we have a shortfall of more that are not succeeding, and I am not. I want every than 100 places, which means that parents have to take school to succeed and I will require local authorities to three buses to a local school? How will he ensure that take the actions and use the investment to ensure that Brighton and Hove Tory council acts with the urgency that happens. If local authorities are not making sufficient that parents and children need? progress one can either say, “Well, the rest are doing fine,” or one can step in and intervene. I am willing to Ed Balls: It is obviously vital that local authorities intervene, but the Opposition are not, and that is what respond to those shortages of places and respond to the would let children and parents down. views of parents. It is their job to ensure that they have the right number of school places. I brought forward Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): I welcome the schools capital from 2010-11 to 2009-10 so that there Badman review of education in Gloucestershire, which was more money for local authorities to spend. It was a is long overdue, but will my right hon. Friend ensure great disappointment to me that a large number of that Mr. Badman takes evidence from local representatives Conservative authorities refused to take up that offer of and from head teachers and chairs of governors? In more spending now, and that included Brighton. that way, he will get to the bottom of what is happening in Gloucestershire, and beyond the superficiality too Anne Main (St. Albans) (Con): All these announcements often found in the news that we hear. come with a huge price tag. The last time encouraging more 16 to 18-year-olds to stay on in sixth form came Ed Balls: I will make sure that Mr. Graham Badman with a price tag, it was not budgeted for, as I was told by does that. I think that I inadvertently knighted him a the Secretary of State. Are all these innovations fully moment ago, but we will make sure that he talks to all budgeted for? the national challenge schools in the area. Of course it is true that many schools with great leadership are Ed Balls: The point is that the hon. Lady is right. making real progress in the national challenge and will When it became clear in March that we had a shortfall get through the 30 per cent. threshold, but I want to in our budget for places for 16 to 18-year-olds, I found make sure that that happens for every school and every £650 million of efficiency savings so that I could pay for child in every area. When we have concerns, it is right 55,000 more places. Despite my seven letters to her that we bring them to the House and act to make sure Front Benchers, she cannot get that commitment matched that all local authorities take their responsibilities seriously. by them. I am spending the money on apprenticeship That is our approach to school improvement. places; the Opposition would spend it on inheritance tax cuts. That is the difference, and that is why she Nadine Dorries (Mid-Bedfordshire) (Con): Not all should be so concerned. areas of the country have two-tier education systems. Some, such as Bedfordshire, have a three-tier system. Mr. Andy Slaughter (Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s Has the Secretary of State taken full account of that, Bush) (Lab): The Building Schools for the Future especially with regard to testing at year 7? programme is one of the best routes to school improvement, but it relies on local authorities delivering it. My local Ed Balls: In the small number of areas that have three education authority, Hammersmith and Fulham, is in tiers of education, we will make sure that the accountability chaos. I am a governor of an outstanding sixth-form system is tailored to meet their needs and that catch-up college, William Morris, which has been refused permission tuition is introduced in a sensible way. I know that there 177 21st Century Schools30 JUNE 2009 21st Century Schools 178 is a debate in Bedfordshire about whether it is sensible schools groups, which we are now going to support. to move to a two-tier system. That decision should be There is a range of choices for Leicester, but one choice made locally, and it is not for me to impose it or dictate that is not available is not to act when it is clear that a it from the centre. We will make sure that our support school is not making progress and is stuck below the for parents and pupils meets the needs of all, regardless 30 per cent. threshold. I will make sure that my hon. of whether they are in a two-tier or a three-tier system. Friend speaks to the school improvement experts, the head teachers and parents. What we cannot have are David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): excuses. We want to know what the plan is to ensure Even the strongest supporter of the comprehensive that we deliver for every child in Leicester. education system, which is what I am, cannot deny that over the decades it has not served the gifted and talented Miss Julie Kirkbride (Bromsgrove) (Con): The Secretary pupils in state schools well. Further to the question of State knows a lot about private schools because he from the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich went to one, although he does not always put it on his (Mr. Timpson), will the Secretary of State confirm that CV. I was wondering whether he could tell us about the there will be adequate resourcing for the confirmatory notable omission from his statement, which was his statement on the challenge and support that gifted and Prime Minister’s promise some time ago that his talented students will receive? There is a good deal of Government would match state school spending to the evidence that we still lack a common definition of who average of private school spending. Is that just another those students are, or even common information about Labour failure to match their promises? them. Ed Balls: I have said in the guarantee that all gifted Ed Balls: I was proud to speak at the speech day of and talented students will get written confirmation of my old school, Nottingham high school, which is an the support that they need and deserve. We have the excellent school doing good things in Nottingham working funding to ensure that children will get that support if with other schools in the city. It is right that we do our they are gifted and talented. I can make that commitment best to meet that pledge to see year by year the amount for this side of the House, but I do not think that the that we spend in state schools moving towards the Opposition can match it. They know that, were there to private school benchmark. What we are doing with be a Conservative Government, the cuts would start to one-to-one support is all about that, but I tell the House fall on the this Department on day two. that it will not happen if the education Department is No.1 in line for the cuts to pay for the reversal of the Mr. Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): How does national insurance rise, the reversal of the top rate of the Secretary of State reconcile what he has said about tax and an inheritance tax cut that is uncosted and Gloucestershire in his statement and in some of his unpaid for and will cost billions of pounds. The idea answers to questions with the fact that a few weeks ago that— his own Department described the local education authority’s management of the national challenge as Mr. Speaker: Order. I think that the Secretary of exemplary? Indeed, in a letter today that he sent personally, State’s message on inheritance tax has been heard loudly the right hon. Gentleman said that the officers on the and clearly, and it does not benefit from repetition. council had provided “excellent”support and development opportunities for national challenge schools. Dr. Phyllis Starkey (Milton Keynes, South-West) (Lab): I welcome the Secretary of State’s intervention in Milton Ed Balls: I know the director of children’s services, Keynes because, although educational performance has Ms Joe Davidson, very well. She has done a lot of work improved, it has not improved fast enough. Can he with us on the child and adolescent mental health assure me that the improvement board will look particularly agencies review. The council’s officers have engaged with at the underperformance of children from minority the national challenge very well, but that does not mean ethnic families and working-class families and of looked- that we are not concerned about the lack of sufficient after children, who have fallen far too far behind the progress in schools below the threshold, or about the average in Milton Keynes? lack of leadership, or about the structural change that we think may be necessary. The right thing for me to do Ed Balls: I will do so, and I will make sure that my is to send in Mr. Graham Badman to give us a report. right hon. Friend the Minister for Children and my We should not be complacent: we should get the report hon. Friend the Schools Minister speak to my hon. done and then see whether we need to do more. Friend. We do not take decisions to move to formal Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester, South) (Lab): I warmly intervention lightly.We had an independent report prepared welcome the Secretary of State’s announcement that he first. There was progress, but I am afraid that it was not has appointed Sir Mike Tomlinson to undertake a progress sufficient and we decided that intervention was needed, report on Leicester. Although considerable progress has with the board reporting directly to Ministers. The been made there, a number of secondary schools still issues that my hon. Friend raises are at the centre of our fall below an acceptable standard. Will my right hon. concerns. Many children are not making progress, and Friend encourage Sir Mike to talk not just to the local we want to address that. That is what the improvement authority but to the other education professionals locally board will do, and we will make sure that my hon. who have considerable expertise and a real commitment Friend is fully consulted. to a collaborative approach to raising standards in the city? Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement, his September guarantee and his Ed Balls: The local authority has a range of choices; commitment to education, which is clear for everyone. it can consider academies or national challenge trusts. Will he step in to stop Essex county council closing one We will make it easier to use one of the accredited of Castle Point’s six secondary schools, given that we 179 21st Century Schools30 JUNE 2009 21st Century Schools 180

[Bob Spink] Mr. Ken Purchase (Wolverhampton, North-East) (Lab/ Co-op): I welcome the idea of continuous improvement have waiting lists for our secondary schools, thousands for teachers through the Government’s masters-level more houses promised to be built—against the borough’s programme, and the idea of teachers keeping their wishes—and the leaving age for compulsory education practice up to date. Does my right hon. Friend recognise increased from 16 to 18? that the operators of Ofsted, who frequently lack insight and experience, and many of whom have not been in a Ed Balls: As the hon. Gentleman—or am I allowed to classroom for 20 years or more, need a rigorous—very call him my hon. Friend? [Interruption.] Well, he is rigorous—period of training, so that they can understand certainly not the Opposition’s hon. Friend. As the hon. what is happening in the classroom, in order to give a Gentleman declares, there are some causes for concern proper report to us about the classroom practices that in Essex. My hon. Friend the Schools Minister has they see? rashly decided to offer a meeting to Essex Members of Parliament to discuss these matters. Perhaps they should Ed Balls: Of course Ofsted is independent of my have the meeting first, and then we can follow up Department and reports directly to Parliament, so it is afterwards. not really for me to provide that scrutiny; it is for Mr. Speaker: Ann Cryer. Parliament to do so. However, I agree with my hon. Friend: of course inspectors must have the highest Mrs. Ann Cryer (Keighley) (Lab): Thank you, standards of integrity and training. That is a matter for Mr. Speaker, and congratulations. the director general of Ofsted, and I am sure that she is Will my right hon. Friend comment on what impact absolutely committed to ensuring that, because it is the White Paper will have on the children in my vital to our school accountability. constituency? As he knows, I have three primary schools where 95 per cent. of the children entering at four have Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con): The Secretary no English whatever. There are arguments to be had of State spoke in his statement about the moral imperative about why they are in that situation, but that is how it is. for every child to get the best possible education. How What will help those children? These are not failing can he square that with the fact that, notwithstanding schools; they have buckets of value added, but we still his April announcement, one of the best-performing have the problem of children really struggling because schools in my constituency, Mascalls school, has had its they enter school at four with no English. What will sixth form frozen, despite the fact that 50 more pupils help them? want to go there? Will he agree to meet me and the head teacher of that school to see whether the issue can be Ed Balls: At the centre of the White Paper is the idea resolved before the end of term? of schools working with schools, parents and other children’s services to break down all barriers to progress, Ed Balls: To be honest, I am happy to meet any hon. whether those barriers are in the classroom or outside Member who would like to discuss their September it. Our vision of schools working with children’s services, guarantee funding. I would quite like to discuss it with and taking an interest in the progress of pupils before the hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), they get to school by working with Sure Start and who refuses to make a commitment on the subject. I children’s centres, is vital, particularly in areas such as have written to him seven times; perhaps face-to-face the one that my hon. Friend represents. Programmes meetings would be more effective, although I rather such as Every Child a Talker, which are about getting doubt it. I am happy to look at the details of the case children to start communicating and speaking English raised by the hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg at the ages of two and three, are particularly important Clark). There is £650 million more, and it would surprise for her constituency, and I am happy to meet her to me if not a penny was going to his local school or discuss that further. sixth-form college, but if that is the case, we will look into the matter and see why that is so. I have the means Mr. Ben Wallace (Lancaster and Wyre) (Con): Both to deliver more funding for more places this September, in this Chamber and on the wireless this morning, the unlike the hon. Member for Surrey Heath. Secretary of State studiously avoided detailing the hard, tough choices that he has made to raise £600 million Mr. Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): How much from within his Department. Will he undertake to place autonomy will head teachers have to enforce parental in the House of Commons Library as soon as possible a obligations under the home-school contracts, or will detailed breakdown of the internal budgets or initiatives they be second-guessed by local education authorities? that were cut to fund that £600 million? Ed Balls: The responsibility rests with head teachers Ed Balls: Iamveryhappytohavethatdebate.We to deliver discipline in schools. The home-school agreement announced on Budget day that we would requirea1per is all about clear responsibilities for the pupil, the cent. efficiency saving from all schools and colleges parent and the head teacher. In the past, head teachers offering 16-to-18 provision in order to provide extra have often felt that parents were not properly committed places. We are putting £650 million more into 16-to- to the home-school agreement, and head teachers did 18 funding, so that we can deliver that guarantee. That not have powers to enforce that agreement. In the White is matching efficiency with more resources to get more Paper, I am setting out how we will strengthen the outcomes. One can do that only if one is willing to put powers that enable head teachers to act. They have the in the resources. If parties cannot match the guarantee, powers to act, but we will strengthen them further. I they cannot deliver the places. That is the difference think that parents will expect head teachers in schools between the parties. to act, so that we can tackle the issue of discipline. 181 30 JUNE 2009 Points of Order 182

Points of Order the device or contrivance of a point of order. I feel that I have heard quite enough on the matter from both hon. 4.24 pm Gentlemen who are parties to the dispute, and I do not think the House will benefit from any further utterances Michael Gove (Surrey Heath) (Con): On a point on the matter today or, probably, for some time. of order, Mr. Speaker. One of the very welcome announcements that you made when you first took the Damian Green (Ashford) (Con): Further to the earlier Chair was that Ministers had to make important point of order, Mr. Speaker. The House will have welcomed announcements to this House first. The Secretary of your remarks to my hon. Friend the Member for Surrey State announced his change on home-school contracts Heath (Michael Gove), following your welcome ruling and parenting orders in the pages of the Sunday Mirror. that announcements should be made first to the House. He made announcements about chains and federations The Home Secretary released a written statement on ID in briefings to newspapers yesterday, and announcements cards at 3.45 this afternoon. At 1.45 pm journalists were on the legal guarantee for parents and pupils were briefed at the Home Office about the contents. Indeed, I briefed to broadcasters this morning. What action will was informed about the contents by some of those you take to ensure that the rights of this House are journalists before any of us in the House had seen the protected, and that the Secretary of State does not statement. Quite apart from the fact that that should continue to flout your rulings and the rules of this have been an oral statement, it is a flagrant breach of House? your ruling. I am sure I can offer you the support of many in the House in your efforts to stop Ministers Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for behaving badly towards you and towards the House. his point of order. A number of the matters that have featured in the exchanges today have been the subject of political debate over a considerable period. I attended Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for closely to what the Secretary of State said today, and his point of order and for his courtesy in providing me also to earlier media coverage of the gamut of issues with advance notice of it. The Table Office has found that have been addressed today. I have not found evidence no evidence that a written ministerial statement that that there has been prior briefing, which I think is the was laid in the Library at 3.45 pm, as the hon. Gentleman term that the hon. Gentleman used. It is very important says, was made available to the media any earlier than that Ministers who come to make statements to the that. However, if it were to be established that that is in House give the statement first to the House and do not fact what happened, I would certainly expect the Minister divulge things in advance to the media. I shall be responsible to report to me and to the House. watching closely to ensure compliance with the ruling that I gave last week, but I have not yet identified a Mr. Slaughter rose— breach. Mr. Speaker: Order. I hope the hon. Gentleman is not Mr. Andy Slaughter (Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s trying by another door to reheat an old product. Bush) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will recall that yesterday the hon. Member for Hammersmith Mr. Slaughter: Perish the thought, Mr. Speaker. I am and Fulham (Mr. Hands) raised a point of order relating not trying to pursue that matter. I understand your to my conduct. I do not believe that was a matter for the ruling, but can you tell me how I can get a correction to House, as it concerned my role as a prospective an accusation of dishonesty by me on to the record? parliamentary candidate. However, I did not have the opportunity at that time, not having noticed the subject, to correct what I believe was an entirely inaccurate Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is an extremely statement, and I would like to do that for the record. experienced political campaigner. He will be familiar with the opportunities that exist for him in the media, including his local media, to put robustly on the record Mr. Speaker: Order. No, I do not think I can allow his version of events. I have a hunch that he will not the hon. Gentleman to do that. long delay doing just that. Mr. Slaughter rose— Mr. Oliver Heald (North-East Hertfordshire) (Con): Mr. Speaker: Order. I ask the hon. Gentleman to On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. We have been lucky resume his seat. I am grateful to him for doing so. I today to be able to welcome to the House of Commons heard the point of order from the hon. Member for some of our armed forces. Many of us think that is Hammersmith and Fulham (Mr. Hands) yesterday, and important in showing support to them. Is it possible I heard the response of the hon. Member for Ealing, that that can be recorded in the Official Report? Acton and Shepherd’s Bush (Mr. Slaughter). I hope he will understand when I say that I do not want a continuing Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman’s legendary and essentially political debate to take place through parliamentary dexterity has enabled him to do just that. 183 30 JUNE 2009 Hydrofluorocarbons Limitation 184

Hydrofluorocarbons Limitation and I commend the agency for its work to highlight this important issue. The report confirmed that supermarkets Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order are the biggest source of HFCs in the UK. It investigated No. 23) the progress that had been made by supermarkets that 4.29 pm signed up in 2007 to reducing emissions of HFCs, and the agency asked 11 of the large high street supermarkets Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): I beg to move, what they were doing to reduce the climate change That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision for impacts of their refrigeration. The results did not make limiting the use of hydrofluorocarbons in certain premises; and for encouraging reading. The best-performing supermarket for connected purposes. had succeeded in introducing climate-friendly refrigerants This Bill will end the use of hydrofluorocarbons— in only three out of 620 stores. For others, the figure HFCs—in the refrigeration units of large supermarkets. was four out of 1,700 stores, and for one supermarket, I seek to introduce it because urgent action is needed to it was one out of 2,250 stores. end the devastating impact of HFCs on global warming, and because supermarkets are responsible for more My intention today, however, is not to name and than half of all HFC emissions. shame any single supermarket. There is widespread agreement, from the campaigners and the supermarkets Before I set out my case, I must stress that I do not themselves, that action is necessary, and my Bill aims to seek to impose additional financial burdens on small bring everyone together to secure an agreement to end retailers, which we all recognise as small, corner convenience the use of HFCs in refrigeration units. In response to stores. I should expect smaller retailers to be required to the publication of the EIA report, supermarket introduce equipment that does not add to global warming representatives indicated a willingness to make more when their old units need to be replaced. There are progress in this area. They said that they wanted the already many environmentally friendly alternatives for Government to regulate to create a level playing field smaller supermarkets, and they generally use different for their industry, suggesting that that would allow the refrigeration technology from the larger stores. Small large supermarkets to plan in the knowledge that their stores tend to use what is called “plug and play equipment”, competitors would be required to do the same. This is a which does not involve large centralised systems, is highly competitive market in which supermarket giants often much less likely to leak and increasingly uses are constantly seeking to exploit any advantages over low-global-warming alternatives, such as hydrocarbons, one another. The Government should take the industry which also offer improved energy efficiency. Those at its word and legislate for a level playing field in alternative carbon-based systems are neither more expensive relation to emissions of HFCs. to purchase nor more expensive to run. The Bill seeks to deal with emissions from larger The UK Government are committed to an 80 per stores. Hydrofluorocarbons, are part of a group of cent. reduction in greenhouse gases by 2050. Today, gases known as F gases. F gases, according to Greenpeace, HFCs equal 1.5 per cent. of total greenhouse gas emissions can be up to 20,000 times more harmful in terms of in the UK. However, if emissions continue to grow at global warming than carbon dioxide. HFCs were introduced about 3 per cent. per year, then while we make efforts to into widespread use under the Montreal protocol in the reduce greenhouse gas emissions, by 2050 HFCs will 1990s to replace chlorofluorocarbons—CFCs—and end constitute 12 per cent. of the UK’s total greenhouse gas the depletion of the ozone layer that their widespread emissions. use caused. HFCs do not harm the ozone layer, but they The Bill does not seek to introduce a complete phase-out are powerful global warming gases. of HFCs, but that is an attractive option for climate In 2005, stationary refrigeration was the biggest source protection. A phase-out would be based on production of F gas emissions in the UK, accounting for almost and consumption of HFCs. A total HFC phase-out 27 per cent. within the sector. HFC emissions from would cover all types of HFCs. Based on 3 per cent. supermarkets account for more than half the total annual growth from 2006, a phase-out schedule would emissions, and direct emissions from leaking refrigerant save almost 500 million tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent gases can account for up to one third of a supermarket between now and 2050—more than three quarters of chain’s carbon footprint. The phasing out of HFC use the UK’s current total annual greenhouse gas emissions. in the supermarket sector by 2015 has the potential to The fast phasing out of HFCs in supermarkets would save 175 million tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent save about one quarter of the UK’s current annual between now and 2050, which is more than one quarter greenhouse gas emissions in that period. of the UK’s current annual greenhouse gas emissions. In 2007, the value of the food market as a whole was In 2005, the amount of HFC emissions leaking from estimated at £72.8 billion, with supermarkets accounting supermarket refrigeration was estimated to be equivalent for more than half of these grocery sales. In April, to 2 million tonnes of carbon dioxide. To put that into Tesco said it had rung up sales of £1 billion a week, with perspective, I should say that that equates to one person annual pre-tax profits of more than £3 billion for the flying in a plane from London to New York more than first time in its history—up 8.8 per cent. In May, The 2.5 million times; to the production of 10 billion plastic Guardian reported that Asda had unveiled a market-leading bags; to one billion car trips to the supermarket over an 8.4 per cent. increase in first quarter sales, and that average distance of 7.5 miles; to the annual carbon foot Sainsbury’s had delivered profits of £543 million on print of 200,000 people; or, to driving round the sales of £20.4 billion. This sector, even in these difficult circumference of the earth 300,000 times—if that were economic times, could sustain the costs of changing possible. from HFCs to climate-friendly carbon alternatives. The issue of HFC emissions by supermarkets was The time to act is now. We are going to experience the highlighted in a report called “Chilling Facts” from the most harmful impact on HFCs in the next 20 years, and Environmental Investigation Agency earlier this year, the earlier we act to reduce their use, the greater the 185 Hydrofluorocarbons Limitation 30 JUNE 2009 186 impact of our actions. Urgency is not just about the end Parliamentary Standards Bill users. Action now would send a message to manufacturers [Relevant Documents: Memorandum from the Audit that it is time to start investing in new forms of coolants Committees on the Parliamentary Standards Bill, and for refrigeration that do not accelerate global warming. written evidence received by the Justice Committee on That would prevent the production of more of these Constitutional Reform and Renewal, HC 791-i.] harmful gases and avoid their having to be stored and eventually disposed of in safety. [1ST ALLOCATED DAY] I know that my Bill is unlikely to progress in the time Considered in Committee remaining in this parliamentary Session. However, let me stress to the Minister that the supermarkets themselves are seeking regulation for a level playing field, and [SYLVIA HEAL in the Chair] supporting this Bill could offer the opportunity to get The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Sylvia an agreement on the way forward: something that is Heal): The Committee will be aware of the considerable urgently needed. If the Government do not act by pressures of time today and tomorrow. Yesterday, some supporting this Bill, the responsibility will remain for 40 additional amendments and new clauses were tabled. them to act, and they must do so quickly. In view of the speed with which the House is being Question put and agreed to. asked to proceed with this Bill, the Chairman of Ways Ordered, and Means was prepared to select the majority of them, That Clive Efford, John Austin, Ms Karen Buck, even though they are starred on today’s amendment Mr. Andrew Dismore, Mr. Peter Ainsworth, Steve Webb, paper. One result is that there are four additional groups, Norman Baker, Peter Bottomley, Mr. Michael Meacher, raising significant and distinct points, to be dealt with Mr. David Drew, Jim Dowd and Andrew George present today. the Bill. Hon. Members will see that a measure of restraint Clive Efford accordingly presented the Bill. will be very much in their interests and will allow us to deal with as many issues as possible. For example, I Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on would hope that there might be little or even no debate Friday 3 July and to be printed (Bill 127). on clause 1 stand part, as all its provisions arise in subsequent groups of amendments. I hope, too, that the Committee will resist the temptation to rerun the Second Reading debate that we had yesterday, and instead will focus closely on the substance of each group of amendments. Finally, might I point out two printing errors on the first page of the amendment paper? In amendment 50, the word “third” should be omitted, and amendment 52 should refer to line 23 on page 11, not line 3.

Clause 1

INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS AUTHORITY ETC Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

4.41 pm The Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor (Mr. Jack Straw): Clause 1 sets out the basic structure and architecture of the new regime: the new bodies—the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority and the Commissioner for Parliamentary Investigations, which are detailed in schedules 1 and 2—and a special Committee of this House to oversee the work of IPSA. I went into further detail yesterday in my Second Reading speech, as did others. Of course, I stand ready to respond to any questions that are raised about the clause. Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton) (Con): In the interest of the brevity that you have called for, Mrs. Heal, the need for which we quite appreciate, I merely point out that the very name of the Bill and the new authority are not a perfect description of what they will do. It would have been much better if they had been called something like the parliamentary payments authority and the parliamentary payments Bill. We have a proliferation of the use of the words “standard” and “standards”, but this is really about money—money 187 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 188

[Alan Duncan] Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): I, too, would like to place on record my concerns about paid to a Member of Parliament by an allowances the management of the Bill. It is proper to reflect on the system and by any outside interests. The name is not fact that many hon. Members would be present for perfect, and I hope that it will not be misused in our today’s debate but for being members of the Select public prints in future. Committee on Justice, which will meet in 13 minutes to take evidence from the Clerk of the House on the Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): I aspects of the Bill that cover privilege. That highlights shall obey your injunctions, Mrs. Heal, and not make a the inadequate way in which the measure is being tackled. long speech, or even a proper speech at all. What you The Liberal Democrats do not take issue with the said to the Committee a few minutes ago underlined the principle of contracting out the functions of the Fees serious nature of the Government taking a Bill of Office. It is a necessary part of restoring public confidence constitutional significance through the House at the in the House and its operation. However, as the right gallop and without time properly to consider and reflect. hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) said, The point that my hon. Friend the Member for several issues of substantial and practical concern arise Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) made was extremely from that. There is little about it on the face of the Bill good, and it is a pity that we do not have the opportunity and, if the debate is truncated, it would appear that we to discuss a different name. I very much hope that the are simply to take matters on trust. I am disinclined to Government will reflect on what was said yesterday take a great deal from the Government on trust, in view during a debate that pointed out the widespread concerns of my experience as a Member since 2001. in all parts of the House about what they are doing and As I said yesterday, we have yet another fisher in a the speed with which they are doing it. I hope that this fairly small pond, and what we do is all without prejudice afternoon and tomorrow, in this indecent haste, the to the possible conclusions of the Kelly commission, Government will respond with a degree of sensitivity to which we will doubtless learn this autumn. I hope the points that colleagues and I will make to try to make that, once we know those conclusions, it will be possible a very, very bad Bill just a little bit better. to review the number of actors because piecemeal development, which responds to each individual crisis Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I strongly as it arises, leaves us with a far from satisfactory landscape. object to the time limit on the Bill. Some of us withdrew from the debate yesterday, conscious that many hon. Mr. Oliver Heald (North-East Hertfordshire) (Con): Members were trying to catch the Chair’s attention in a I support the points that my hon. Friend the Member very full day’s debate. We would have liked more opportunity for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) made. As a so that we, too, could have spoken about the big underlying member of the Committee on Standards on Public Life, principles. Of course, I accept your injunction, Mrs. Heal, I get correspondence about matters with which the because I want as much of the detail as possible to be Committee on Standards and Privileges is dealing because examined in the Committee stage, which is too short. of the public’s confusion about those two bodies. To add another body with the word “standards” in the title However, I cannot let clause 1 go without asking the is just asking for trouble. I just suggest that the Secretary Minister on duty why the complex and expensive of State think that over and perhaps come up with a bureaucracy will be better than the current bureaucracy. name that refers to payments or something different. Why is it thought superior to beefing up, amending or The whole purpose of the exercise is supposed to be to improving the current system? We should have some try to make the thing more transparent and understandable, idea of what salaries will be paid, and some budgets for but it is actually making it more confusing. the complicated authority. We should know how it will be superior to the system of recent years in carrying out payment and audit functions. Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): I would like to draw the House’s attention to clause 1(2), which states that The Government have not made the case for the new schedule 1 provides for the new body’s authority. There was little detail in the remarks yesterday “administration functions to be carried out by its chief executive about the sort of people it would comprise, the cost, in accordance with paragraph 17 of that Schedule”. and how the job would be done differently from the way in which our staff currently undertake it. More reassurance The Secretary of State will know where I am going with is needed for current staff so that they know what the this—at least I think he will—because paragraph 17 of terms and conditions of transfer are likely to be, who schedule 1 refers not just to administrative functions, will be transferred and so on. As an employer, we owe but to regulation functions. I invite hon. Members to some sort of duty to our staff, who must feel rather glance at page 13 of the Bill in order to follow what I am concerned about the peremptory discussions. Has the about to say. Secretary of State properly consulted the staff concerned? Paragraph 17 distinguishes those two functions from What has he told them about what their future holds? Is one another, so that, “So far as possible”—whatever there any sort of guarantee that they will be transferred that means— and get jobs, or is the idea to put all the jobs out to “the…administration functions and…regulation functions must tender and have new people? Are different sorts of be carried out separately”. people from the current staff being sought, or is it That must happen intended to transfer as many as possible, but make them go through some kind of competitive process? We have “so that one set of functions”— a right to know those things. I accept your instruction, by the way, the word “functions” means powers and Mrs. Heal, but we really need two or three hours to duties— debate those issues. “does not adversely affect the carrying out of the other.” 189 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 190

Paragraph 18 of schedule 2 gives the meanings of Sir Patrick Cormack: It was not the seriousness of “administration functions”and “regulation functions”, but the issue that I was reflecting on, but rather the anticipated I have to say—I say this as gently as possible—that it is length of my hon. Friend’s speech. utterly disingenuous. I know the Justice Secretary well enough to be surprised that he has allowed the drafting Mr. Cash: Indeed. I am glad to be able to say that, in of the Bill not to refer to the regulatory functions in Committee, it is appropriate for us to go into these clause 1(2), but they are hugely important, for the matters. If my hon. Friend believes that we can deal reasons that I am about to give. with the whole history of the House and its power to Paragraph 18 of schedule 1 says that the new body’s determine its own internal proceedings simply by referring administration functions are to a few jottings on the back of an envelope, I am afraid “its functions under…section 2 (payment of MPs’ that he has a lesson or two to learn. salaries)…section 3(1) (payment of MPs’ allowances)” and Mr. Redwood: To return to my hon. Friend’s point “section 4 (dealing with allowances claims)”. about clause 1, he drew our attention to the fact that IPSA will be both a regulatory body and an administrative That raises a raft of issues, which I do not need to go body. Does he foresee any difficulty with that, given that into now. The paragraph continues: its regulatory functions will primarily involve its regulating “and the function of maintaining and publishing the register its own administrative functions? Is not that a rather under section 5.” unusual arrangement? Paragraph 18(2) says that the regulation functions of the body are Mr. Cash: Perhaps the provision is set out in this way “its functions under…section 3(3)…(preparing and revising MPs’ so that, as far as possible, the functions can be treated allowances scheme)…section 5 (preparing and revising MPs’ separately. This is typical of any hybrid arrangement, financial interests rules),” however; one is never quite sure which is the tail and and, in paragraph 18(2)(c), “determining procedures which is the head. I am afraid that that is exactly where for investigations”. we are on this matter. I suspect that my hon. Friend the Member for Ashford Clause 8 contains a whole stack of provisions relating (Damian Green)—or, indeed, any other hon. Member— to directions and recommendations. One of the most might be interested in that provision, in relation to the unsatisfactory aspects of the Bill—in addition to the question of the entry by the police into this House, on length of time that we have in which to discuss it—is the which I have spoken on many occasions. I have also got impact that it will have on our ability to run our own into some severe altercations about that with the Attorney- affairs and the extent to which that will be taken away General, who alleges that it is for the courts to decide from us. I said this to the Prime Minister when he came such matters, not the House of Commons. You will to talk about so-called constitutional renewal and reform. forgive me, Mrs. Heal, if I make it abundantly clear that He raised the manner in which we were going to deal I still totally and utterly repudiate the reasoning in her with matters of this kind. I pointed out to him that he memorandum. I believe that that was the first occasion had just returned from the beaches in Normandy, where on which a memorandum from the Attorney-General people had fought and died—as my own father did—so was placed in the Library, at my insistence—and, to that we could maintain our democracy in this House. I give her credit, the Leader of the House agreed to said that they had not fought and died in Normandy to ensure that it was put there. achieve what the Government now seem to want and The issues are profound, because they relate to article IX what the Attorney-General stated in her memorandum of the Bill of Rights, in respect of which I have tabled a that she wanted—namely, that the proceedings and new clause, which I am glad to see that you have privileges of this House, which are derived from the selected for debate tomorrow, Mrs. Heal. I therefore do people exercising their freedom of choice and voting for not need to go into that in detail now, but I do need to us by putting a simple cross on a ballot, should be taken go into the supremacy of Parliament, which relates to away and given to the judicial supremacy of the courts new clause 7. New clauses 7 and 8 deal with the supremacy either in this country or in Strasbourg or Luxembourg. of Parliament and article IX of the Bill of Rights, That matter remains on the agenda, and I shall return which relates to the internal regulation of the proceedings to it tomorrow when we discuss the new clauses. of this House by this House. That is where the Bill gets We need an overarching way of saving the rights of into deep trouble. I shall not go into that now, although this House, on behalf of the electorate who vote for us. not because it is out of order—it is not—but because I It is their Parliament, not ours. I do not believe that it is prefer to reserve my arguments for the new clauses the Government’s Parliament either, and they have not tomorrow, on which I shall have a certain amount to the slightest right to take away from the people of this say. country the right to govern themselves.

Sir Patrick Cormack: Be warned! Mr. Straw: The hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) and a number of other right hon. and Mr. Cash: Indeed, although my hon. Friend might hon. Members asked about the name of the new authority. well be warned as well, because whereas those matters It will be called the Independent Parliamentary Standards can be taken with jocularity in certain circumstances, Authority, but it is a rose by any other name, and it is they can lead to arrest of the kind that my hon. Friend certainly a very fine rose. As I said yesterday, the other the Member for Ashford was under, and many other place might well wish to latch on to these arrangements, matters, which I will deal with when we come to those and it seemed to us that the body ought to have a fairly new clauses tomorrow. generic title. 191 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 192

[Mr. Straw] The budgets have yet to be drawn up, but they will be. Our judgment is that the total cost of this scheme and I pointed out yesterday that most of the contents of what will be administered—namely, the content of the the code of conduct and guidance are concerned with allowance scheme—will not be more than current costs. financial interests, as are the central parts of the Bill. Indeed, it may well be less in some respects, as any new We spent a lot of time arguing about the name for the system is likely to be simpler than the one it replaces. new body, but the proposed title certainly seemed to be acceptable to our party leaders. The word “independent” Mr. Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC): I was added as a result of our cross-party talks, to do not demur from what the right hon. Gentleman says emphasise that it will be independent of Parliament. We about a general consensus emerging a few weeks ago all know why we are here, and why we are having to go among party leaders and others about having an arm’s- through this process. It is rather less a result of some length body to deal with financial aspects, allowances serious abuses of the allowance system by one or two and so forth. All that is to the good. What was not individuals, and more to do with a failure of the system, agreed—and is not agreed—is the idea of bringing in a which we allowed to develop and for which we are all statutory code of conduct and, worse still, impinging responsible. on our rights and, even more importantly, the rights of I will, of course, reflect on what the hon. Member for our constituents as within the Bill of Rights. At that South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack) said. I have stage, nobody foresaw the attack on the basic freedoms already made it clear from outside the House that we of our constituents and on our basic freedoms, including, are ready to accept a number of amendments. Where I crucially, our freedom of speech. am in doubt, I will listen to the arguments, but I can tell the House now that we will certainly accept a number of Mr. Straw: With respect to the hon. Gentleman, he is amendments tabled in the names of the right hon. tilting at windmills. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) and my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell)—and some others. Mr. Cash: Who is Don Quixote?

5pm Mr. Straw: Not me. Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Was there The issue particularly exercising the Clerk and Members any discussion this morning about moving a Government was clause 6, which I have dealt with. [Interruption.] motion to amend the programme motion to enable us Well, we can deal with that we come to clause 10. As I to spend as much time as we want this evening by recall, it is the nationalist parties that were keen to removing the 10 o’clock limit? There was a statement ensure that offences were written directly into the Bill, and an enormous number of amendments were added so there is the consequent issue about how to adduce only yesterday, so did the Government consider that evidence. option? Sir Patrick Cormack: The Lord Chancellor knows Mr. Straw: There were discussions, but in the event, it very well that I endorse all that the hon. Member for was judged appropriate to keep within the time scale. Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) said a moment From my perspective, we are seeking to proceed by ago, and we rehearsed much of this yesterday. What will consensus and to make as much progress as we can. I happen if Sir Christopher Kelly, who is being constrained, also remind the Committee about the judgments made trammelled and confined— less than three weeks ago across the parties— Mr. Cash: And insulted. Mr. Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): Across the Front Benches. Sir Patrick Cormack: That, too. What happens if Sir Mr. Straw: It may have been the Front Benchers, as Christopher and his committee decide that they do not the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) want to take this approach? Given that the Government says, but that is the way we work within the parties and have said that they will accept the committee’s report, it is how the system operates. There was a general what will happen? agreement—I am not saying it was universal—that we needed to make swift progress, so I hope that that Mr. Straw: As I explained yesterday, the Kelly committee answers the right hon. Member for Wokingham is dealing with the content of the allowance system—[HON. (Mr. Redwood), who criticises us on account of the MEMBERS: “No.”] With great respect, that is the central speed of the process. I wish that many things had not part of what it is doing. It is looking at the whole system happened; I wish that the scheme commended by my of allowances and what its content should be. This Bill right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House is about how any system of allowances should be almost this time last year had been voted on and approved administered and about setting up a register of financial by the House. Many Members in their places today did interests outside the House that should take over certain vote for it, as did I; others did not, and I think that their functions of the Fees Office and the registrar and some repentance has been very painful and that the whole aspects of the investigations that are currently undertaken House and its reputation has suffered from it. Expenses by the commissioner here. The outside body would also are not dominating the news today, but they were for six make judgments in cases of abuse. All of those follow, weeks, and they undermined the reputation of this as night follows day, from the acceptance on both sides House, so it is crucial—in my judgment and, I think, of the House that we should have an Independent that of the House as a whole—that we act swiftly. Parliamentary Standards Authority. 193 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 194

Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory (Wells) (Con): I must As always, I listened with great care to the speech of correct the Justice Secretary. He just said that the Kelly the hon. Member for Stone. I thought for a moment inquiry is only conducting a review of the narrow issue that I would be able to record the fact that it was the of the content of the allowances, but on 23 March the first speech that I had heard him make in the House for Prime Minister wrote to Sir Christopher referring to many years in which he did not mention Europe. However, “the opportunity to consider the full picture.” it followed a consistent pattern. Wherever the hon. There is no constraint there. The Prime Minister explicitly Gentleman’s speeches start, they end with Europe. asked the committee to consider everything. Therefore, I commend clause 1 to the Committee. it is entirely wrong that through this Bill we are pre-empting Question put:— and constraining a committee that was set up to consider The Committee proceeded to a Division; but no Member what the Prime Minister calls “the full picture”. being willing to act as Teller, THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND Mr. Straw: I do not accept that. We are not pre-empting MEANS declared that the Ayes had it. what Sir Christopher Kelly is doing. The fact of the Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Kelly inquiry was well known to all three party leaders. For these purposes, I am not putting words into the mouths of the leaders of the nationalist parties, but the Schedule 1 three main party leaders are on the record as welcoming the establishment of an Independent Parliamentary INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS Standards Authority, notwithstanding and in the full AUTHORITY knowledge that the Kelly inquiry was under way. That is the truth— Mr. Jenkin: I beg to move amendment 61, page 10, line 12, leave out subsection (2). Mr. Bernard Jenkin (North Essex) (Con): Why, then, when I and several colleagues went to see Sir Christopher The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Kelly, did he specifically ask us what our thoughts were With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: about external regulation? Why did he welcome me Amendment 50, page 10, line 24, leave out from ‘by’ writing him a supplementary letter about external regulation to ‘the’. that addressed all these issues? Was he acting outside Amendment 51, line 26, leave out from ‘by’ to ‘the’ in his remit? line 27. Mr. Straw: The hon. Gentleman will have to ask Amendment 52, page 11, line 23, leave out sub- Sir Christopher Kelly why he asked those questions. It paragraph (5). would be impertinent of me to suggest a reason, and Amendment 54, in schedule 2, page 17, line 28, leave such matters are for a chairman of an inquiry to determine. out from ‘by’ to ‘the’. I provide this reassurance, not least to the right hon. Amendment 62, page 17, line 33, at end insert— Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) and the hon. Member for South Staffordshire, that if there were ‘(3A) The person must be a person who holds or has held high judicial office (within the meaning of Part 3 of the to be—although I do not anticipate this for a moment— Constitutional Reform Act 2005 (c.4)).’. aspects of Sir Christopher Kelly’s proposals that the House wished to accept, but they were wholly inconsistent Amendment 55, page 18, line 15, leave out sub- or incompatible with the legislation, we would have to paragraph (3). amend the legislation—[HON.MEMBERS: “Ah!”] I am trying to be helpful by saying that that is what we would Mr. Jenkin: The purpose of the amendment is simply have to do. There will almost certainly be a vehicle to to ask the promoter of the Bill what the judge, or enable that to happen. ex-judge, who is appointed to IPSA will be for, and whether we are appointing him to the right role. The hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) cannot have it both ways. He has complained that this Bill is being In principle, I have always been in favour of there treated as urgent, but it is urgent. With urgent legislation being someone with juridical experience to help to it is usual to say—as I did this time last year about adjudicate matters of fact, evidence and the interpretation anonymised evidence—that the House will have a chance of rules when enforcing those rules on Members of to consider it again at a time of less urgency. The Parliament and dealing with complaints. That is lacking impending general election will take place by next June, from our present arrangements. However, I fail to so I do not make that explicit promise, but I do make understand why it is a good thing to make the judge a the explicit promise that if there are aspects of the member of IPSA. If he were acting purely for the recommendations from Sir Christopher that the House and independently of potential judicial review, House wishes to implement, but cannot because of this he would be contributing something very positive, but legislation—a very distant prospect—we will have to he will be acting as a de facto legal adviser to IPSA in amend the legislation. [Interruption.] The hon. Member respect of any judicial review of its activities and functions for Stone asks why it cannot be done now. I am not of regulation and enforcement. I propose in other clairvoyant, and that would require me to anticipate amendments that the construction of the Bill should be Sir Christopher Kelly’s recommendations. insulated from judicial review. I will not refer to them now, but they effectively propose that all proceedings of Sir Patrick Cormack: Will the Secretary of State give IPSA and the commissioner should be regarded as way? proceedings in Parliament under article 9 of the Bill of Rights so that they are themselves privileged and whatever Mr. Straw: No. I have already given way to the hon. they deal with within Parliament is not therefore subject Gentleman, and we must make progress. to adjudication and review by the courts. 195 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 196

5.15 pm I am grateful to the First Deputy Chairman of Ways In that capacity, I propose that if we are going to have and Means for correcting the misprint on the amendment someone as eminent as, let us say, a former Lord of paper, because Amendment 52 deals with line 23, not Appeal involved in these processes, he should be the line 3. Such misprints are rare, and I think that this was commissioner and not a member of IPSA. He should another example of the fact that this is rushed legislation. be involved with the investigations, the adjudication of The amendment leaves out part of paragraph 5 that rules, the consideration of evidence and the establishment deals with the removal from office of members of IPSA. of facts in a fair and impartial way, which is what a The Bill says that such a removal may be carried out by judge is trained in being skilled at, rather than just a Her Majesty the Queen—I think she has quite enough member of this quango. to do without having that duty as well—and that any such removal must be done I just leave that question on the table for the Lord “on an address of both Houses”. Chancellor to consider. I welcome the idea of a judge having a role in the process, but it should be on the I am not sure why both Houses need to be involved, investigation side, and not just as a member of a quango. because I understood that this Bill was about this House. Why are importing into the Bill the requirement that the Leader of the House of Lords should also table Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: I am grateful to you, Sir Alan, a motion in another place to bring about such a removal? for selecting my starred amendments in your position as Is this because, as I suspect, IPSA is in due course to Chairman of this Committee. That is, perhaps, a recognition cover the whole of Parliament, not just this House? of the fact that we are all in a tremendous rush and it is My amendment 52 would alter the procedure within an abuse of the procedures of this House that a this House and would mean that the motion for an constitutional Bill of this importance is being treated as address could not only be moved by the Leader of the an emergency. The Government have an emergency, but House. To put it another way, my amendment would the constitution does not, and it is wholly wrong that we remove the requirement that such an address can be are having to table complex amendments and have them moved only by the Leader of the House and by the considered extremely quickly. Leader of the House of Lords in another place. My None of the amendments I have tabled is in any sense amendment seeks to remove that requirement because I a recognition that this Bill can be adequately improved. am worried that only the Government can do this. I I think it is irretrievably a bad Bill, which is why I voted think it is much better to leave the matter open, so that against it. However, in accordance with the spirit that other Members—perhaps the Speaker—can, if the rules Committees are supposed to have, I have tabled some allow it, move such an address to make those removals amendments to try to correct some of the grosser should they be required. abuses and to question the Government about their Finally, I come to my amendment 53, which relates to proposals. funding. Amendments 50 and 51 remove the requirement that the chair of IPSA must be appointed by Her Majesty The Chairman: Order. May I just say to the right hon. the Queen. I have also included other members of IPSA Gentleman that his amendment 53 was not selected, so in another amendment, because I am puzzled about it is not in order to refer to it at this stage? why these need to be royal appointments. Therefore, I have this question for the Justice Secretary: what additional Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: I shall therefore merely make rights and status does this give them? Is it intended to the point in passing, because it is relevant to the schedule elevate the importance of IPSA? That is hardly necessary, as a whole. I shall ask this in an interrogative way, rather as it is already the supreme quango, at the pinnacle of than to make a point, and perhaps the Justice Secretary the quango state; so I want to know what it is that royal would refer to it. Why is it that any repayments obtained appointment brings. by this new quango from Members, perhaps in respect of matters paid in error, should not benefit the taxpayer, Sir Patrick Cormack: Perhaps it is so that five Members but instead should be used to fund other activities and can be arrested at some stage. functions of the quango? I leave that hanging and I direct the main force of my remarks towards the amendments that you generously selected, Mr. Deputy Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: My hon. Friend makes an Speaker. historical illusion, which is relevant because a part of our history—certainly of the history of this place—is Sir Patrick Cormack: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I rise an attempt to keep royal power at bay; so, again, it is briefly to— rather puzzling that we are importing into this Bill, quite unnecessarily in my view, a system of royal The Chairman: Order. May I just make a correction appointment. for the Committee’s benefit, because this error is being I suspect that the truth is that this is a kind of proxy repeated? We are in Committee of the whole House, so for the Executive. They want to appoint the chair and the form of address is either Mr. Chairman or Sir Alan. members of this new quango. So my question to the Secretary of State is: what does this bring to the party? Sir Patrick Cormack: I am extremely sorry, Sir Alan, If it has no effect, why are we doing it? If it does have an and I hope that you will forgive me. I rise to support the effect, what is it? I certainly believe that this House is amendment to which my right hon. Friend has just perfectly capable of making these appointments, if they spoken. I do so because he highlighted a very important are necessary, without having the additional rigmarole aspect of this Bill when he talked about the royal of making them Crown appointments. appointment, because, as we all know, royal appointments 197 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 198 are prime ministerial appointments. In making those consideration, if we are to have a person of judicial comments, my right hon. Friend indicated why we are experience on the body, it should be a retired judge and here today. We are here today because of the Prime not a sitting judge. However, I do think that some legal Minister, who, in a fit of pique and panic, has introduced experience is sometimes helpful. an extremely bad Bill to Parliament. I have often been I appreciate that not all Members of Parliament criticised, in my constituency and elsewhere, for sometimes always agree, and I also understand that the Lord working too closely with Members of other parties. I Chancellor takes a different view from mine on the have taken great pride in that and I still do. It is with construction of certain parts of the Bill, particularly in great reluctance that I have come to the conclusion that relation to clause 9 and how we define dishonesty. We the Prime Minister of this country at the moment is not can perhaps discuss that tomorrow, when I shall do my a good public servant of this country— best to correct him. The Chairman: Order. It troubles me to have to intervene once again on the hon. Gentleman, but having Mr. Jenkin: I confess that, perhaps naively, I took listened to what he has said so far I do not detect how it sub-paragraph (2) to mean that it was intended that a fits with the narrow amendment we are discussing. person who held judicial office at the time of his appointment to the IPSA would relinquish that office. Sir Patrick Cormack: It fits, if I may so suggest, If that is not clear, it should be made clear. I hope that Sir Alan, because the amendment tabled by my right that is the Government’s intention and that, if necessary, hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) they will table a Government amendment to clarify wishes to delete the reference to royal appointment. I matters. In addition, does my hon. and learned Friend have made the point that a royal appointment is, in agree that a person with experience of high juridical effect, a prime ministerial appointment. This very bad office would be more objective and less likely to be Bill has been foisted on us by the Prime Minister in a infected by party political matters than, say, a former spirit of vindictiveness, malice and uncharitableness. civil servant? He is a Prime Minister who wishes to tear down some of the institutions of this country, of which Parliament— 5.30 pm The Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman is giving Mr. Garnier: That is one of the skills of being a judge. me trouble this afternoon. I reacted instantly to the use I have no doubt that any current judges who had the of the word “malice” and I think that that is over the misfortune to be appointed to this body would do their borderline of what should really be permissible when best to apply their judicial skills, but that is not the ascribed to a right hon. Member. point. Judges must be separated from politics, and seen Sir Patrick Cormack: At your instruction, Sir Alan, I to be so. We do not have a written constitution in this will withdraw “malice”but I shall leave “uncharitableness”. country, but whether those who prefer a written constitution I believe that we are where we are today because of the like it or not, we do have a separation of powers. Prime Minister’s determination to foist on us an instrument Importing current judges on to political bodies of this that is destructive of this Parliament and its Members’ nature would be a mistake. rights, including yours, Sir Alan. The other point that flows from the amendment is I shall rest my case there, because I do not wish to that there are statutory limits on the numbers of people make a long speech. I say what I say with a considerable who may serve as judges in the High Court, the Court degree of reluctance, but my right hon. Friend the of Appeal or the Judicial Committee of the House of Member for Wells is right to insist that the reference to Lords. It is not widely known—and even where it is the royal appointment should be deleted, because for known, it is often ignored—that those people are already “royal” one has to read “prime ministerial”, and that fairly fully employed. Taking a serving judge off the takes away the power of Parliament to regulate its own current bench of senior judges would simply add delay affairs and makes us dance to the tune of the chief to the existing criminal and civil jurisdictions, and place executive—something that no free Parliament should additional work on the backs of the current judiciary at ever do. a time when they have plenty to do already. There are only two logical conclusions: either that sub-paragraph (2) Mr. Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con): May I ask be deleted, as advocated in amendment 61, or that the Secretary of State one or two questions that arise membership of the IPSA should be restricted to retired from the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the or former senior judges. Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin)? They relate to the sub-paragraph of the schedule—paragraph 1(2)—that Mr. Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con): I want to deals with the need to have a member of the judiciary, say a few words about the amendments, and the past or present, on the IPSA. Opposition’s view of these matters. My hon. Friend the It seems a matter of concern that we should be Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) has tabled two permitting an arrangement whereby a current member amendments that are important in that they give proper of the senior judiciary becomes involved in what will, in consideration to the issue of judicial appointments, as many respects, be an acutely political environment. The my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough IPSA, of course, will no doubt do its best to act in a (Mr. Garnier) has explained. There seems to be good dispassionate and judicial way, but the subject matter of reason for having someone of legal experience on the its deliberations must by its very nature be acutely IPSA, but I also think that the point made by my hon. political. Indeed, that subject matter will not just be and learned Friend is correct. I find it very difficult to capital “p” political, but party political. We need to be imagine how a person in high judicial office, with some extremely careful about drawing current members of time in post still to run, would want to spend his or her the judiciary into the arena. Perhaps, on better later years on the judicial bench—or the years after 199 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 200

[Mr. Dominic Grieve] appointed is described as not being a Crown servant. I find a slight incompatibility between an appointment leaving it—as a member or the chairman of the IPSA. that derives from the monarch and the appointee not It strikes me as a job that, although it may have some being a Crown servant. I shall be interested to hear interest, is unlikely to match the interest generated by from the Secretary of State exactly what the legal status working on the bench. of that person will be. Mr. Paul Goodman (Wycombe) (Con): Does my hon. and learned Friend believe that a judge’s enthusiasm for Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Is it not a serving on this body will be enhanced by the possibility, fundamental point of parliamentary privilege established which the Justice Secretary has confirmed, that it may since the civil war that no Crown servant should have be scrapped at a later date if Sir Christopher Kelly turns any jurisdiction over this House? out to dislike it? Mr. Grieve: My hon. Friend makes an important Mr. Grieve: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. I point. The difficulty that the House has, and we have to would not have thought that the uncertainties about the face up to it, is that either the IPSA is our creature in the structure of the IPSA would encourage people of sensible sense that it is ultimately answerable to us, or it is not. disposition who wish to be of public service to apply to As I said on Second Reading, I have grave anxieties join it. I do not wish to stray from the amendment, but about the widening of the scope of the IPSA’s operation, we touched on one of the unfortunate aspects of the especially to issues of MPs’ conduct. That is in a sense a matter yesterday when we noted the degree of incoherence separate issue that we will have to consider tomorrow, in how we have proceeded with this legislation. Even the although it will colour my view about the entirety of the bits that we support—I shall say more about them in a legislation. moment—seem to us deficient, as we cannot see the If the purpose of establishing the IPSA is to set up a entire structure because we do not have Sir Christopher system for setting our salaries and allowances and ensuring Kelly’s report. that they are properly paid and that we repay what There are good arguments for saying that the IPSA might have been misclaimed, the arguments for creating should have a person with legal experience serving on it. a body that is seen to be entirely independent of the If that is to be a retired High Court judge, so be it, but House become strong. I have to say that we have got the point has been made that a person who has an ourselves into our difficulties in part because we have active career in the judiciary should not be included in in-house allocation of our allowances and we ultimately the list, and I rather think that that was not what the control them. Secretary of State intended. I am sympathetic to the Government’s aim, as I made Mr. Jenkin: The main point that I was seeking to clear at the outset, of having our salaries and allowances make was that if we are to have someone with such set outside this place entirely. If we are to achieve that, experience, he should be on the investigation and it must follow that the IPSA cannot be seen to be our prosecuting side, not on the administration and function creature. If it is appointed on the basis of motions in the side. That was the main point of my tabling this pair of House, it will remain so. That is the point where I have amendments. I wonder whether my hon. and learned sympathy with the Government’s position. That sympathy Friend has a view on that? begins to erode when I see how the Government have provided for the IPSA to have other functions and, Mr. Grieve: There again, having someone of legal above all, for the commissioner to have other functions experience on the investigatory side may be desirable— which I believe intrude into areas of conduct, affect the clearly not a serving High Court judge or someone who Bill of Rights and our privileges, and are much more is likely to go back on the Bench. There are arguments controversial. that someone of legal experience would be valuable. I happen to think that legal experience would be valuable The question that I would like the Secretary of State in either role. I shall be interested to hear from the to answer is: in view of what the Bill says—namely, that Secretary of State what he has to say on the subject. the appointment is made by motion of this House but is There are two slightly different roles. One is clearly ratified by the Crown—what is the status of the person investigatory and involves making sure that due process who is thus appointed if they are not a Crown servant? of law is followed, so judicial experience is relevant, On the face of it, it seems rather an anomalous position. especially in view of the comments made by the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) about the human Mr. Straw: This has been a useful debate, and I am rights compatibility of the new statute. Equally, there grateful to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen for having may well be some scope for judicial experience within raised issues. Let me deal with them in turn. The hon. the IPSA, if for no other reason than that if one gets the Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) asked, first, right person it will help inject common sense and may be of whether it was appropriate for there to be a place on the assistance in justifying decisions to the public independently authority for somebody who has held high judicial of the House. For those reasons, I shall be interested to office; secondly, whether it is acceptable, in any hear what the Secretary of State has to say. circumstances, to hold out the possibility of that person The second set of amendments has been tabled by my being a current holder of high judicial office; and, right hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat- thirdly, whether it would be more appropriate for somebody Amory) on the question of royal appointments. There is in that position to be the person selected to be commissioner. something slightly strange here. On the one hand, the On whether it would be very useful for there to be one Bill makes it clear that the appointment is made by this person on the authority who has high judicial experience, House voting on a motion, but is ratified by the Queen. certainly there was not much argument in the inter-party On the other hand, later in the Bill, the person who is talks, although I accept that they were not a substitute 201 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 202 for debate in this House; of course they were not. My on at least part of the Opposition Front Bench. However, view is that given the nature of the functions of the just as we have fine qualities, there are others with authority, somebody with high judicial experience could equally good qualities. be extremely helpful in helping to guide the authority. There is no direct parallel, but I have certainly witnessed at close hand the work that former members of the 5.45 pm Court of Appeal have done as commissioners for the Mr. Garnier: Could the Government think a little interception of communications, for surveillance and more carefully about another problem? They are in for the intelligence services. They do a job that is partly danger of leading themselves into yet further difficulties. administrative and partly adjudicatory, and they do it The Secretary of State has now accepted that it would with huge skill, perspicacity and authority. We are be unwise for a serving member of the judiciary to fulfil trying to set up an authoritative body that is at arm’s the function, but the Government’s policy seems to be length from the House, and that does not leave us open continually to reduce the retiring age of judges, presumably to the criticism that we are judging ourselves, so having on the basis that above that age they are unfit, through someone with that authority on the body would be very senility or exhaustion, to serve as judges. If they are helpful. required to retire at increasingly early ages as judges, I say to the hon. Member for North Essex that the why are they then fit to perform the proposed function? authority will have two functions, which are set out in one of the clauses. One of the functions is to run the Mr. Straw: The basic reduction in the age of retirement administrative system—that is, to administer the allowances for the judiciary was made by the right hon. and noble and so on. The execution of that system will be a matter Lord Mackay in 1995. It was his proposal to reduce the for the chief executive. Alongside that, but quite separately, retirement age from 75 to 70. I have no proposals to there is the function of adjudicating on complaints that reduce it still further, and I would be reluctant to do so. are brought to the body by the commissioner. In certain As the hon. and learned Gentleman knows, many members circumstances, the body will deal with the complaints; of the senior and less senior judiciary are very capable in other circumstances—if it judges the complaints to of carrying out further functions after they have retired. be more serious—it will refer them to this House. Again, Let me deal with the points made by the right hon. when it comes to ensuring that there is an acceptable Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory). I do not process that meets the requirements of natural justice accept—and there is no provenance for this—that if an and of article 6 of the European convention on human appointment is made by the Speaker, by virtue of that rights, it would be helpful to have somebody on the fact it is a creature of the Executive. Many, many IPSA with the authority of high judicial experience. appointments are made which have nothing whatever to do with the Executive. My right hon. Friend the Member On the hon. Gentleman’s second point, he is quite for Birkenhead (Mr. Field), who is not in his place, said right to suggest that it is improbable, not to say impossible, to me that he had been appointed by Her Majesty to that somebody who is currently serving as a senior two positions, neither of which have anything to do judge could or should accept appointment to the IPSA. with the Executive. The only circumstances that I can conceive in which the current wording would be relevant are those in which We considered whether, as is standard in respect of someone who is coming to the end of their term of the Comptroller and Auditor General, for example, office, and is about to retire, wishes to apply for the there was something to be said for the appointment to IPSA job. He or she might be appointed to it while still be formally recommended by the Prime Minister, but holding high judicial office, but would not take the job we ruled that out rather quickly so that the recommendation on until they had finished their term of office. However, should go direct from the Speaker. As was made clear if I may, I will take away the issue of the current by the ceremony last Monday, in which I took part, the drafting and think about it. Speaker, who is elected to serve the House, has to have his or her appointment approved by Her Majesty, but On the third point, which was about whether it would that never goes near the Executive, nor should it. I hope be more appropriate for the commissioner to be somebody I can provide reassurance on that. who had held high judicial office, there is nothing to The purpose of ensuring that if there is discontent stop somebody who has judicial experience from applying with the individual or individuals, they can be removed for the post. It is important that a member of the only on an address of both Houses, is to bring that into authority should have held high judicial office, but I can line with the arrangements for the removal of members think of others who have had good judicial experience of the High Court and above, to give them assurance who could easily fulfil the work of the commissioner. that they are independent. That makes sense, but I accept the right hon. Gentleman’s objections to only the Mr. Jenkin: There has been a succession of very able Leader of the House or the Leader of the other place Parliamentary Commissioners for Standards, but no being able to put that motion before the House. I holder of that office has had juridical experience, and acknowledge that that provision should not be in the that is a disadvantage. Surely the Bill is an opportunity Bill, so I will seek the approval of the House for to make sure that an improvement is made in the new amendment 52. arrangements. Mr. Jenkin: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Mr. Straw: I am a member of the legal profession and have great affection for it. I have made plenty of jokes Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. along the lines that only a lawyer should apply for any Amendment made: 52, in schedule 1, page 11, line 23, leave job I can think of. I know there is approbation for that out sub-paragraph (5).—(Mr. Heathcoat-Amory.) 203 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 204

Sir George Young (North-West Hampshire) (Con): I Mr. Jenkin: On a point of order, Sir Alan. What beg to move amendment 3, page 15, line 41, leave out happens to amendments 1 and 2? from ‘After’ to end of line and insert The Chairman: They come later. The hon. Gentleman ‘the Committee has reviewed the estimate and made any should not be concerned; we shall arrive at them in due modifications, the Speaker’. course. The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Schedule 2 Amendment 4, page 16, line 28, after ‘and’, insert ‘the COMMISSIONER FOR PARLIAMENTARY INVESTIGATIONS Speaker must’. Question proposed, That the schedule be the Second Amendment 5, page 16, line 30, leave out ‘On laying’ schedule to the Bill. and insert ‘When the Speaker lays’. Amendment 1, in clause 3, page 2, line 18, leave out Sir George Young: Schedule 2 creates a new ‘IPSA’and insert ‘Speaker’. Commissioner for Parliamentary Investigations, but it Amendment 2, in clause 5, page 3, line 25, leave out leaves in place the existing Parliamentary Commissioner ‘IPSA’and insert ‘Speaker’. for Standards. After the legislation comes into force, the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards will, for an Sir George Young: These are technical amendments, as yet unspecified period, retain responsibility for the and the need for them may reflect the haste with which register of Members’ staff, the register of journalists the Bill has been drafted. Paragraph 25 of schedule 1 and the register of all-party groups; for advising the provides for IPSA to lay its annual report before Parliament. House on its code of conduct; and for considering Papers may be laid on the Table only by a Member or complaints that a Member has breached the code, unless an Officer of the House, so in practice someone will the complaint relates wholly to the Members’ allowances have to lay the annual report and other papers on scheme or to the rules on Members’ financial interests. behalf of IPSA. Of course, IPSA is independent of the Of course, complaints do not always fit neatly into Government, so it would not be right for the papers to one category or another, however; it is perfectly possible be laid by a Minister of the Crown. The Government for a complaint against a Member to fall into two. The may assume that the Clerk of the House will lay them, advantage to the public and to the House of the current but the legislation should not rest on assumptions, and, arrangements is that we have a one-stop shop for complaints to the extent that there are precedents for this, they are about Members: the Parliamentary Commissioner for not very good. It will be for the House authorities to Standards. Under the Bill, however, we will close that decide whether any Act, drafted in the current terms of one-stop shop. Not only will some complaints be potentially the Bill, provides sufficient clarity and authority for open to investigation by both commissioners, but the papers to be laid on behalf of IPSA. conduct of the two investigations into the same complaint It would be much better to specify the laying authority may be carried out according to different procedures, in the Bill, and the Speaker, as Chairman of the Committee and the resolution of the two complaints may be made established by virtue of clause 1, is the appropriate according to different criteria. person to lay the papers both on behalf of that Committee Last night, the Deputy Leader of the House told the and, indeed, of IPSA. He already lays papers on behalf House in her winding-up speech: of similar independent bodies, such as the Electoral “Any future change to the role of the Parliamentary Commissioner Commission. If the Government do not agree, they for Standards would be made only with the agreement of the should at least make it clear in the Bill who will lay Speaker and after an affirmative vote by the House, following those papers. consultation with both the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority and the Committee”— Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab): I am very my Committee, the Standards and Privileges Committee— grateful for the opportunity to make a contribution with you in the Chair, Sir Alan; it is a very rare opportunity “that the right hon. Gentleman chairs.”—[Official Report,29June 2009; Vol. 495, c. 126-27.] for us all. I simply second the comments of the right In view of the potential for confusion, I wonder whether hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George I can press the Minister to say a bit more today about Young). His amendment would place the focus back on how she sees the relationship between those two the Speaker, and, as we have just chosen a new Speaker, commissioners prior to such changes that may bring to it is appropriate that he have that role. I seek to be an end the existence of one. How exactly will we avoid persuasive, and I invite the Secretary of State to agree to all the dangers of duplication, overlap and inconsistency the amendment. of approach which are inherent in two commissioners Mr. Straw: Such is the eloquence of the right hon. being in office at the same time? Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) Mr. Grieve: I endorse everything that my right hon. and my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough Friend has just said. There will inevitably be duplication (Sir Stuart Bell) that I am very happy to accept the in the transition period, but then the question is, what amendment. It makes eminent sense and shows the happens beyond any transitional period? Either we get value of this kind of process. rid of the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards, Amendment 3 agreed to. whom we have in this House, in which case the Amendments made: 4, in schedule 1, page 16, line 28, after Commissioner for Parliamentary Investigations must ‘and’, insert ‘the Speaker must’. inevitably acquire the powers of regulation over those Amendment 5, in schedule 1, page 16, line 30, leave matters that are solely within the House’s remit; or we out ‘On laying’ and insert ‘When the Speaker lays’.— recognise the basic problem that the Government created (Sir George Young.) a Bill that was initially designed to regulate our conduct Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to. in its entirety, they backed off after the overwhelming 205 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 206 outcry about the House’s independence being completely to create what appears to be a dog’s breakfast. I will be lost in the process, and they have been unable to follow interested to hear how he thinks these two things can, in the matter through to its logical conclusion, which is practice, be reconciled when it is abundantly clear that if that the role of the Commissioner for Parliamentary we breach the rules on parliamentary allowances, we Investigations is redundant. We should look for a proper bring ourselves directly in line for criticism in terms of system whereby IPSA, if it considers rules on claiming our status as Members of this House. Having some allowances and salaries to have been transgressed—although clarity would help everybody. that is rather unlikely in the case of parliamentary salaries—makes any reference that it needs to make to Mr. Straw: The right hon. Member for North-West the existing structure. Hampshire (Sir George Young) has raised an important That is the problem, and my right hon. Friend is issue that we discussed to some degree in the cross-party absolutely right to highlight the fact that the issue talks. It may be helpful if I tell the Committee what is in appears to be a fertile area for conflict. Conflict will the Government’s mind. I resist the claim by the hon. occur not just when we decide on the current structures and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) that today; we are laying the ground for future conflict when we have been unwilling to follow through the consequences the House considers whatever the final structures should be. of our proposals to their logical conclusion. We are not Mr. Garnier: Taking into account what our right hon. discussing clause 11 at the moment, but that clause— Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir Opposition Members will recall its provenance—was George Young) said about the potential for conflict put into the Bill to try to deal with precisely this issue. over the interpretation of the law and the facts, might First, let me deal with the point made by the hon. not one pragmatic solution be to have one person doing Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh), who asked both jobs? It is a bodge, but this Bill is a bodge. whether this body should have been an independent fees office, in his phrase, and nothing more. We are indeed Mr. Grieve: My hon. and learned Friend makes an establishing an independent fees office, but there are interesting and sensible point. The only difficulty is that certain consequences that follow from that. One of the we have just debated the fact that the chain of answerability key consequences involves who then supervises that of the Commissioner for Parliamentary Investigations independent fees office. If we approve the principle of and the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards is an independent fees office, as the House plainly has—I different: one derives directly from the House; the other remind Members that the principle of the Bill was quite deliberately—certainly in terms of IPSA—goes approved by a majority of 290; the vote was 291 to somewhere else. one—we must also approve the principle that the people The measure has not been properly thought through, who supervise it must be independent of this House. and there is a real constitutional incoherence about the Otherwise, we would get into the absurd position of way the Government have dealt with the issue. The having a fees office that was allegedly independent, but problem will not go away just because we decide to when there was a complaint about its operation— whether ignore it. it came from a member of the public, a Member of this Mr. Leigh: Is not the overwhelming and logical conclusion House or a member of staff, and whether it concerned to the argument of my hon. and learned Friend the its administration or how it was adjudicating on individual Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) that IPSA should Members’ allowances and claims—that complaint would be no more and no less than an independent fees office? fall to be adjudicated solely by this House. If there were then a question about whether the new independent fees Mr. Grieve: My hon. Friend refers to the body that office was being properly run, again it would fall to the many thought was going to be created. There are very House to deal with it. We would not be setting up what good arguments for having a wholly independent body we sought to set up at all, but a charade. administering our salaries and allowances. That would free Members of Parliament from a burden which, That is why we thought that we should set up the frankly, we were showing ourselves very ill used to structure that is essentially provided for in schedules 1 discharging, and which meant that we were coming in and 2. The authority has two branches to its work, one for a great deal of public criticism; in many cases, MPs of which is administrative. There is a chief executive, or did not want to go through the business of doing it chief officer, appointed by the authority, but it is the because it attracted public opprobrium whatever decisions chief officer, not the authority, who is the accounting they came to. officer, and he or she is directly responsible for the administration and good financial conduct of the authority 6pm and its expenditure of money. On the other side, there is Those are really good and compelling arguments. a commissioner who is there to investigate complaints, The Government have muddied the waters. When the which may well be about the operation of the chief Prime Minister made his pronouncements on television, executive and his or her staff. I suggest to the Committee which did not appear to relate to having taken any prior that that is an essential part of any process to establish advice, he indicated that this structure would have what the hon. Member for Gainsborough describes as supervision of our conduct without thinking through an independent fees office. There is an argument for the constitutional implications. Although he has since saying that the commissioner should be wholly hived rowed back—under a great deal of pressure, I suspect, off, but the commissioner is pretty nearly wholly hived off. from several quarters—there has been an unwillingness The right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire to follow that through to its logical conclusion. I urge asked whether we would have two sets of investigations the Secretary of State—who is, after all, responsible for falling over each other with two sets of procedures. If the rule of law in this country, for trying to maintain one reads the Green Book, one can see that it is some clarity, and for protecting our constitution—not overwhelmingly concerned with Members’ conduct in 207 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 208

[Mr. Straw] Mr. Garnier: A few moments ago the Secretary of State made a perfectly fair point about the need for terms of their financial interests and allowances. That complaints about the independent fees office, as my will fall almost exclusively to the new authority and the hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh) new commissioner. However, there will continue to be described it, to be dealt with by someone independent. some work for the existing commissioner and some However, according to schedule 2 the Commissioner for investigations that will go directly to the Standards and Parliamentary Investigations will essentially be chosen Privileges Committee, not through the authority as by, or with the agreement of, the Speaker, and the well. Speaker cannot nominate a candidate without the The hon. and learned Member for Harborough agreement of the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent (Mr. Garnier) asked whether it might be sensible to Parliamentary Standards Authority. Who will make up have one person who was able to do both jobs. Yes, it that Committee but Members of Parliament? The Secretary might be; the double-hatting of functions is perfectly of State is building into his so-called independent system normal in many situations. That is why clause 11, which a snake and a ladder that go straight back to Parliament, we will come to in due course, provides for two sets of so the appearance of independence is destroyed. things. First, subsection (1) states: Mr. Straw: The hon. and learned Gentleman raises “The Speaker, after consulting the Commissioner and the an important point, but someone has to appoint both House of Commons Committee on Standards and Privileges, may agree with the” the members of the authority and the commissioner. The hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan authority that it Duncan)—if I might have his attention for a moment—and “is to carry out any registration function specified in the agreement” other members of the cross-party group will confirm that it is not already carrying out. The registration that we considered alternative methods for the appointment functions in the Bill will be functions relating to Members, of the commissioner. One was for it to be effectively in not necessarily to Members’ spouses or staff, nor, for the hands of the civil service commissioners, so that we example, to the press lobby, which is currently separate. would simply be presented with a person whom we If that is agreed, then subject to the provisions in would endorse but have no ownership of, as it were. subsection (8), those functions would go to the authority. That did not find favour with the hon. Gentleman or anybody else on the cross-party group, or indeed with me. Secondly, subsection (4) states: There is a balance to be struck. The House can set up “The Speaker, after consulting the IPSA and the House of an independent authority and appoint independent Commons Committee on Standards and Privileges, may agree with the Commissioner that the Commissioner is to carry out any individuals, which is consistent with our responsibilities, relevant function specified in the agreement (whether relating to a or it can somehow lose its sense of responsibility and matter arising before or after the agreement is made or the date outsource decisions to another body completely. I happen this Act is passed).” to think—I may be wrong—that we have got the correct Therefore, the existing functions could be passed over. structure and the right balance. The other safeguard for the House is that that could I am confident in saying that because, for instance, I happen only if the agreement were approved by a have been part of the process to appoint members of resolution of the House. the Electoral Commission. That has been done on an all-party basis, with the assistance of the civil service commissioners, but by this House. No one suggests that Mr. Grieve: The Secretary of State makes a compelling members of the commission, or its recently appointed argument for having a reviewer of IPSA decisions in chair, are not independent of the House, even though relation to any mistakes that might be made by IPSA or they are appointed by it. No one suggests that although complaints about individual Members’ claims in terms the new Information Commissioner is endorsed by the of their having been overpaid or paid for something to House, he is not independent of it. We are perfectly which they were not entitled. I have no difficulty with capable of making judgments about the qualities of that. The difficulty that arises, which is inherent in the individuals and having protections to ensure their enforcement provisions in clause 8 that we will have to independence. consider tomorrow, is what happens when one sets up a system whereby IPSA or the Commissioner for Finally, all the people appointed under schedules 1 Parliamentary Investigations—it is not quite clear how and 2 will have tenure unless they are removed by an they interrelate in this context—makes recommendations address to Her Majesty generated by any Member of to the Standards and Privileges Committee about what the House. it should do to Members of Parliament who have, in IPSA’s view, transgressed on a financial matter. For Mr. Douglas Hogg (Sleaford and North Hykeham) reasons that I made clear in my closing remarks yesterday, (Con): On any view, the commissioner will have considerable I think that is very dangerous territory for the independence authority over right hon. and hon. Members, or at least of this House. That is why my original comment is his decisions will have an impact on them. The selection valid. The Commissioner for Parliamentary Investigations of the commissioner is therefore a matter of considerable is a leftover from a structure that was put together by importance and should be subject to constraint and the Prime Minister at a time when he wanted to put this oversight. It is clear from paragraph 1(3) and (4) of the House entirely under independent regulation from outside. schedule that the drafters of the Bill had that in mind. I note that the person in question will have to be selected by the Speaker, and I note from sub-paragraph (4) that: Mr. Straw: The hon. and learned Gentleman’s “The Speaker must not select a candidate without the agreement imagination is running away with him. I promise him of the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary that that is not the case. Standards Authority.” 209 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 210

I hope that you will allow a debate on schedule 3, current commissioner is any different. I rather infer Sir Alan, because one is therefore driven to consider the from my right hon. Friend’s remarks that he has a composition of that committee. similar regard for him. I notice that in reality, the Executive could have Sir George Young indicated assent. considerable authority over the selection of the committee that is specified in schedule 3. Obviously the Speaker is Sir Patrick Cormack: My right hon. Friend indicates independent of the Executive, but the Leader of the that he does. Now we are going to have another House is not. The five members of the committee who commissioner. The clearly logical situation would be to are MPs but not Ministers, who are to be appointed by do as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for the House of Commons, may well be chosen as a result Harborough (Mr. Garnier) suggested, but the Secretary of a Whips’ operation. of State indicated that there would be a potential conflict of interest in that. We have to address that point, 6.15 pm because the public need to know who “the commissioner” We could therefore find that the composition of the is. They will not understand the nuances and the differences committee, which will no doubt sit under the chairmanship between one commissioner and the other. of Mr. Speaker, is shaped by the Executive of the day, I am sorry to go back to this point, but we are in this operating through the Whips when the House comes to mess because we are legislating on the hoof and with decide its membership. I regard that as a thoroughly such precipitate and unnecessary speed. On 18 June—less undesirable state of affairs, and it means that the safeguard than two weeks ago—I asked the Leader of the House on the appointment of the commissioner that we are whether IPSA would be solely concerned with the financial providing under sub-paragraphs (3) and (4) is much less aspects, and she replied in the affirmative. Even though real than one perhaps thinks. I hope that you might the Secretary of State graciously withdrew clause 6 allow a short debate on schedule 3, Sir Alan, so that yesterday, we still have an exceptionally badly drafted that point can be reinforced and so that we can make and unsatisfactory Bill. It has caused widespread concern the further point that the House should have greater throughout the House, irrespective of party—the minority independence when it comes to decide on the nature of parties are as concerned and exercised by it as any the authority. others. Mr. Cash: Schedule 2 deals with the role of the We compound the problem by having two commissioners, Commissioner for Parliamentary Investigations. We will and the confusion makes it difficult for people who wish get on to questions of privilege later under clause 7, but to level genuine complaints—I do not mean those who I simply wish to put it on record that on my analysis of wish to make frivolous and vexatious complaints; goodness the commissioner’s function, the schedule and clause 7 knows, there are enough of them. The Secretary of do not appear to preclude the involvement of the police. State obliquely suggested that it might be possible for The use of the word “may” in that context, irrespective one person to wear two hats, and I urge him to consider of whether the word “shall” should have been used, the matter further so that when the Bill goes to another gives rise to the question whether there will be parallel place, where Members have more time and, frankly, functions. I hope that the Secretary of State will take more expertise, they can perhaps reach a reasonably account of that in his consideration of clause 7 later, satisfactory conclusion, which does away with the confusion because although I believe it is intended that the and creates the clarity that must be the prerequisite of commissioner will have the function—apparently the such legislation. sole function—of investigating, I am by no means convinced The Chairman: Before I call the next hon. Member, I that that will be the result of how the Bill is drafted. need to make a confession to the House and seek Sir Patrick Cormack: I wish to support the comments indulgence. In the euphoria that we perhaps felt when of my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West the Secretary of State accepted amendment 52 in the Hampshire (Sir George Young). We are devising a new name of the right hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat- system on the hoof in this very fast piece of legislation, Amory), I failed to notice that amendment 55 makes but I beg the Secretary of State to have something that exactly the same point. It requires the leave of the is clear and that we and our electorate can understand. House for me to put that amendment immediately before I put the Question on the schedule. That is We had quite a few problems over the years, until we clearly logical and would save tidying up later. Do I solved them recently, with the fact that certain things have the House’s approval? [HON.MEMBERS: “Yes.”] had to be declared to the Electoral Commission and That is what we will therefore do. I offer my humble certain things to the registrar of interests here. Some apologies for not spotting that earlier. Members fell foul of that system without any personal culpability, because they had not completely understood Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): I want to it. It was very confusing, but that was acknowledged place on record my concerns, some of which mirror and we have now put it right. We are in danger of those that Opposition Members have expressed, about creating another system that will be even more confusing. the creation of the Commissioner for Parliamentary My right hon. Friend rightly pointed to the activities Investigations and providing for it in the Bill. The of the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards, and public think that it is to do with stopping the scandals I know of no one who has seriously criticised the about expenses, which have caused so much concern. current commissioner or his predecessor, Sir Philip Instead, we are creating something that has a slightly Mawer, who was an enormously dedicated public servant Cromwellian air. Cromwell was keen on commissioners and gave great time and tremendous integrity to his in place of Members of Parliament. A Commissioner task. He served the House, and through it the country, for Parliamentary Investigations sounds rather sinister. very well indeed. I have no reason to suppose that the What exactly will that person investigate? 211 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 212

[Mr. Denis MacShane] Mr. Leigh: Winston Churchill’s private and business affairs were extremely shady in the 1930s, and he would If we combine the earlier aspects of the Bill with the certainly have fallen foul of the new commission. new rule book that has just been presented to us, it will be jolly hard for any Member of Parliament to write a The Chairman: Order. We should try to return the book again. Those who consider doing that will have to debate to the narrow confines of the schedule. log all the hours they spend thinking about, preparing and writing the book. When such matters are reported Mr. MacShane: Under the new rules, not only in the to the new IPSA, or “Guardian Council” as I prefer to Bill, but in the Green Book that has been waved around, call it, constituents will ask, “What on earth is this man the notion that anybody could find time to write a book doing writing a book? He should be in the constituency while serving as a Member of Parliament has gone out working on all our cases. We need a parliamentary of the window. I do not know whether that is healthy. investigation. Oh good, we have a Commission for Many of us feel that we should spend more time reading Parliamentary Investigations. Let’s get him on the job.” books; one or two of us are mad enough to try to write I exaggerate slightly. one, but there will be little time to do that under the new My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who is a proposals. much better, more honest and keener parliamentarian I appreciate that my right hon. Friend the Secretary than I will ever be—I know from working with him as a of State is trying to get things right and I accept that he Minister how seriously he takes the House—is trying to is sincere. He is a great parliamentarian—one day, he get something on to the statute book in response to one may even become a Back Bencher again, though that is of the periodical “fits of morality”, to quote Lord difficult to imagine. He would be a good Back Bencher Macaulay, through which our nation is going. and, if he were to become one, he would not want to be I ask my right hon. Friend to ascertain whether the hobbled by the Cromwellian commissioner that he proposes. old expression “festina lente” applies. In my 15 years as a Labour Member of Parliament, who would like an Mr. Garnier: I largely agree with what the right hon. elected second House, I never thought that I would say, Member for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane) has just said, as I say tonight, that I hope that the other place takes particularly his early remarks about the haste with time and considers the matter carefully. The concern is which the Bill has been cobbled together. As I said a cross party—many of us are talking about the matter in moment ago, it is a bodge. Bodged Bills tend to lead to the Tea Room and in the corridors. That includes those bad law and tears before bedtime. I assure you, Sir Alan, who are not present because we have many other that there will be tears before bedtime if the measure unfortunate and pressing issues to tackle. For example, gets on to the statute book as it is drafted. I have to deal with massive steel redundancies in my I want to say something nice about the Secretary of constituency. State for Justice. I hope that it will not accelerate his I speak simply out of deep concern that we are return to the Back Benches—I said that with my fingers legislating in haste and without clarity, and creating an crossed. The Government’s Lord Chancellors have incredibly powerful office that can interfere substantially appointed members of the judiciary, and not one can be with what Members of Parliament do. Members of accused of being a political creature. That applies to the Parliament can be eccentric—I note that the hon. Member current Lord Chancellor and his predecessors as Labour for Bethnal Green and Bow (Mr. Galloway), who was Lord Chancellors. They have performed their functions once a great supporter of Saddam Hussein, now supports, as party politicians who happen to be Lord Chancellor according to reports that I have read, President in an exemplary fashion when making appointments to Ahmadinejad and is acting as his spokesman in Britain. the judiciary. They even managed to do that with the appointment of a former Labour Solicitor-General, The Chairman: Order. The right hon. Gentleman who is now a member of the High Court bench. He must take care when criticising another hon. Member, performs his judicial functions entirely properly and certainly when it is done without notice. utterly separately from any previous political allegiance Mr. MacShane: I was simply reporting what the that he may have had. website said. If it is a criticism, let the cap fit. In the House, we have always had our eccentrics—people 6.30 pm who are isolated in their party and from public opinion. That said, however, it is fair to say that it would in However, they were always protected by the invincible theory be possible for a Speaker, advised by the Independent shield of having been elected by their constituents in a Parliamentary Standards Authority, to appoint somebody free vote in a specific locality. Nothing could take that as the Commissioner for Parliamentary Investigations away from them. who could carry out his functions in an entirely dispassionate and disinterested way. However, my concern Sir Patrick Cormack: Churchill. is not so much about the actuality, but about the appearance, Mr. MacShane: Indeed. At the beginning of 1939, the because we will not get the confidence of the British Conservative party actively tried to deselect Churchill. public—and certainly not in the current book-burning Winston Churchill had to conduct a surgery; he had to storm that we seem to be facing—if they think that go to his constituency and find out where Chingford or there has been a parliamentary stitch-up. I happen to Chigwell—whatever it is called—was. think that Parliament ought to be big enough and self-confident enough to manage its own affairs and to Mr. Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford discipline its malefactors, as we have done in the past, Green) (Con): Chingford. without feeling ashamed. However, I suspect that the Mr. MacShane: I apologise to the right hon. Member political climate is rather different now and that we now for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith). have to have a Bill such as this one. However, if we are 213 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 214 to have such a Bill, let us get it right instead of rushing it Mr. Garnier: Well, there we are—it appears that none through and making mistakes that are either unforeseen of us has an idea, but perhaps we ought to. I return to or foreseeable, but which are none the less mistakes. what the right hon. Member for Rotherham said at the The Justice Secretary is trying to persuade us that it is beginning of his remarks. If we rush the Bill through important for the independent fees office, as described without having thought about it thoroughly, we will end by my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough up disappointing not only ourselves, but those outside. (Mr. Leigh), to be disciplined—or governed or looked after—by an independent functionary. Yet we also see, Sir George Young: Having listened to this debate on and not just in schedule 2, which we are discussing, but schedule 2, I think that we are clearly on a journey with in other parts of the Bill, various references— the destination unknown. Where we are now is that we [Interruption]—including 20 references to the powers have a one-stop shop. We have one Parliamentary of the Speaker to do things, as my hon. Friend the Commissioner for Standards, one code of conduct and Member for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie) reminds me. We are one route for complaints. The original proposition from persuading ourselves that the machinery that the Bill the Prime Minister was for the whole thing—finance creates is one of independence. However, every time one and non-finance—to be contracted out to an outside looks at a clause or a subsection, one sees that the Bill body. That proposition met with criticism, for all the does not produce machinery that is independent of the reasons that the Secretary of State knows, so it has now House of Commons or Parliament, still less of the been divided into two aspects: financial and non-financial. Executive; rather, it produces one that remains in their The finance bit goes out to IPSA, which will be subject grip. I happen to think that that is not necessarily a bad to the new commissioner. However, a bit of the code thing, but it is no good for the Government to proclaim remains with the House of Commons and the that the Bill sets up an independent machinery when we Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards. see the fingerprints of the Speaker’s office and the In his remarks, the Secretary of State helpfully pointed Executive on more or less every clause. to some provisions in clause 11 that enable us to move on from what we all regard as a rather unsatisfactory Mr. Hogg: When my hon. and learned Friend says position, with two routes for complaints. If the Bill goes that the machinery is in the grip of Parliament, what I through, the commissioner whom we are discussing think he means to say is that it is in the grip of the under schedule 2 could, if everybody agreed, perform Executive, and that is what is truly dangerous. the function of dealing with non-financial complaints and reporting not to IPSA, but straight to the Standards Mr. Garnier: I agree. It has long been my view that and Privileges Committee. If we ended up at that while we have an Executive who sit in Parliament, they destination, we would have one commissioner who would should not sit on Parliament. We have become too perform two functions. In other words, there would be a supine as Members of Parliament. I hope that, in one-stop shop. recognising the public anger about expenses and so forth, we will none the less remember that we were There would still be some untidiness, however, in that elected to represent our constituents in a self-confident the rules for one route of complaints might be different and independent way, and not to be bullied by either the from those for another route, and the destination might Executive or other outside interests that wish to knock be different. However, if we end up there, it would be us off our stride. helpful to have some consultation about that at some point, because there are people involved. It would also Of course Members of Parliament make mistakes. help to have a time scale. How long will we have two Some may have committed serious mistakes and will Parliamentary Commissioners for Standards running have to answer to the law for them. However, I cannot alongside each other, one reporting to us and the other understand an argument that says that we are setting up reporting to IPSA? I have no difficulty with schedule 2, an independent machinery when one sees, for example, but there is a residual untidiness, although there are references to the Speaker in paragraphs 1(2), (3) and (4) also some possible solutions, which the legislation may of schedule 2, references to the Independent Parliamentary facilitate. Standards Authority, which is made up of Members of Parliament, or references in paragraph 4 of schedule 2 Mr. Grieve: I should make it clear—I might not have to the removal of the Commissioner for Parliamentary done this earlier—that I can see that there might be Investigations being brought about only on a motion some merit in having the commissioner for investigations ON.MEMBERS: put down by the Leader of the Commons—[H performing the role of the Parliamentary Commissioner “They’ve conceded that.”] for Standards. Indeed, there has been criticism in the Mr. Straw indicated assent. past about the extent to which parliamentary commissioners have been subject to improper pressure from within this Mr. Garnier: Well, I am delighted to hear that, because— House, and that proposal might help to resolve that [Interruption.] I am so grateful for the attendance of problem. However, is not the nub of the issue that if we that person over there, whoever he is. None the less, my are to have that conjoined role, the powers of enforcement point in relation to those other aspects of schedule 2 in clause 8 and the relationship of the commissioner remains. I apologise if I misunderstood the nature of vis-à-vis the Standards and Privileges Committee will the amendments of my right hon. Friend the Member have to be identical? Otherwise, we will start running for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young)in relation into some very difficult areas indeed. to the motion made by the Leader of the House, but that function will now be performed by the Speaker—is Sir George Young: My hon. and learned Friend is that right? quite right, which underlines the need for some serious consultation if we are to come up with a solution that Sir George Young: I have no idea. meets all the points that have been raised, including his 215 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 216

[Sir George Young] Thehon.andlearnedMemberforHarborough(Mr.Garnier) raised several points. We have talked about whether it concerns and mine about exposing those decisions that would be possible to appoint people who are independent currently rest with the House to review in the courts, and capable of exercising authority over us when we which is not something that I would wish for. ourselves make the appointments. I think that that is possible.Thehon.andlearnedGentlemanwascomplimentary Sir Patrick Cormack: Does that point not underline about the way in which my predecessors as Lord Chancellor the good sense of taking time in the other place to get and I have supervised the system of judicial appointments, the Bill absolutely right? and I think that we can achieve the appointments in Sir George Young: I agree with my hon. Friend. question because we have experience of doing so. I must We have had a useful debate that has outlined some also tell him that the Executive’s fingerprints are nowhere potential solutions, albeit ones that have ramifications to be found on the scheme proposed in the Bill. It is true that need to be thought through. However, it was helpful that they were, in some of the earlier drafts, but we made to hear from the Secretary of State that he is not sure that they were removed. unfamiliar with the issues raised by the approach adopted I shall turn to the very helpful points raised by the by the Government. I hope that he will be sympathetic right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir to some of the solutions that have been explored. George Young). Clause 11 was drafted in response to points that he made in the cross-party talks. If it is the Mr. Straw: This has been a useful debate, and I wish of the House, we could double-hat the commissioner. should like to respond to it, if I may. My right hon. One person could perform two sets of parallel functions. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane) Once the House has approved the scheme and the Bill, I talked about a Cromwellian commission, and I understand undertake to ensure that detailed consultations are entered his anxiety, which is shared across the House, that we into on how we might achieve that. might lurch from a system of inadequate regulation—which has exposed the reputation of the House and of the vast 6.45 pm majority of honourable and honest Members to being I acknowledge, in relation to the staff in the Fees besmirched—to the other extreme of over-regulation. Office and to the commissioner and the staff who will Parenthetically, may I add that my right hon. and work alongside the commissioner, that we are dealing learned Friend the Leader of the House and I also with individual human beings who have been doing the understand the concerns about the interpretation of the best job they can. Personally, I have very high regard for guidance on so-called second incomes? Mr. John Lyon, who worked with me as an official in May I say to my right hon. Friend the Member for the Home Office and in the Ministry of Justice before Rotherham that the rules or code that the commissioner he came here. would be hoping to enforce could come into effect only Clause 8(6), which we will come to tomorrow, contains by approval of the House on an affirmative vote? The a provision for a protocol setting out the interrelationships authority will propose the rules or code, but clause 5(6) between the authority, the commissioner, the Committee is absolutely explicit: on Standards and Privileges and—in respect of criminal “The rules (or revision) do not come into effect until they are prosecutions—the Director of Public Prosecutions and approved by a resolution of the House of Commons.” the Metropolitan Police Commissioner. We have included Mr. Hogg: My reading of that—in accordance with the provision as a result of discussions in the cross-party the ordinary procedures on affirmative resolutions—is group to ensure that there were clear dividing lines—in that the House would have no power to amend. Indeed, the best sense of the term—between the different functions. once the rules were in place, I do not think that the Amendment made: 55, in schedule 2, page 18, line 15, House would have any power to revoke them. leave out sub-paragraph (3).—(Mr. Heathcoat-Amory.) Schedule 2, as amended, agreed to. Mr. Straw: It is certainly the case, as with any affirmative resolution, that the rules would be either accepted or rejected. However, there would be a process of consultation Schedule 3 beforehand. I give notice to the House that, when we reach clause 5, I will accept amendments to subsection (4) SPEAKER’S COMMITTEE FOR THE INDEPENDENT to extend the list of those who have to be consulted. PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS AUTHORITY There will be an iterative process between the authority Question proposed, That the schedule be the Third and the House. In any event, if 95 per cent. of the schedule to the Bill. proposals are acceptable and 5 per cent. are not, it will Mr. Hogg: I indicated in the previous debate that I be for the House to decide. would like to have a short debate on schedule 3. The Mr. Hogg: Once the rules are in place, who will be composition of the Speaker’s Committee for IPSA is able to get rid of them? Will it be only the IPSA, or will obviously a matter of some importance, because the the House also be able to do so? committee will be consulted on a number of significant issues and policies. One is therefore entitled to look at Mr. Straw: The right hon. and learned Gentleman its composition. Of course it will have among its members raises an interesting point. Under the structure of the Mr. Speaker, which is a very good thing, but it will also Bill at the moment, only IPSA could do so, but I will have the Leader of the House of Commons. One has to take the matter away. I had not thought of this before, recognise that the Leaders of the House of Commons but there might need to be provision in the Bill for the are not infrequently extremely partisan. They used not rules periodically to be reviewed and voted on by the to be, when I first came into the House, but increasingly, House. I will take that matter away; it is an important instead of being representatives of the House of Commons point. as they used to be, they have become very partisan. 217 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 218

I notice that there will be no ex officio members of Clause 2 the committee, other than my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young), MPS’ SALARIES who at the moment chairs the Committee on Standards and Privileges; I am pleased that that post has been recognised in this regard. I would like there to be a Mr. Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): I beg to nominated representative from the other political parties. move amendment 69, page 1, line 17, at end add ‘of I see considerable merit in the shadow Leader of the 3 July 2008.’ House or the spokesman for the Liberal Democrats or The amendment would take further the implementation another minority party being an ex officio member of of the recommendations of Sir John Baker. It would the committee. In that way, one could be reasonably remove the requirement for the House to pass further sure that the views of the House would be fairly represented resolutions in order to amend MPs’ pay, which would in the committee. become entirely a matter of statute. Although it incorporates It is true that paragraph 1(d) provides for the resolutions passed on 3 July 2008, I am advised that it involves no issues of retrospection. It retains the “five members of the House of Commons who are not Ministers” flexibility built into the Baker recommendations of a to be among the membership, but, as I have repeatedly review by the Senior Salaries Review Board at the start pointed out, the Whips often control the votes. The of each Parliament. Executive, through their Whips, could thus fashion the composition of the committee. I do not want that. I do My reason for tabling the amendment is clear enough. not trust the Executive. Over the past 12 years, we have Along with allowances, the pay of MPs has been a seen the power of the Executive over this House increase, source of enormous controversy almost every time the and right hon. and hon. Members should do their House has considered it. To the public, it looks like utmost to prevent any more erosion. This is part of the MPs voting themselves a pay rise from taxpayers’ pockets; process. When the composition of the committee is it looks like trotters in the trough. There is always a considered further in another place, serious thought pressing reason, too, for the Government to wish to should be given to the appointment of Members who vary an SSRB recommendation, which can cause even represent other parties, who should sit on the committee more controversy and require even bigger adjustments by right. In that way, the Executive would not be able to to be made later. fashion the committee through the Whips Office, because That was partly why Sir John Baker was given the that would be an erosion of parliamentary sovereignty. task of devising a system “to make recommendations for a mechanism for independently Mr. Straw: It might help if I explain the basis on determining the pay and pensions of MPs which does not involve which we propose the Speaker’s Committee. We took MPs voting on their own pay”. into consideration the parallel experience of the Speaker’s His report recommended annual uprating in line with Committee on the Electoral Commission. I have served public sector average earnings, with a review by the on that committee—as Leader of the House, I think, SSRB each Parliament, but that still left the difficulty of and certainly as Justice Secretary. the need for a resolution of the House and the scope for I understand the anxiety of the right hon. and learned Parliament to vary its conclusions in it. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) The intention of the provision is to remove that about these Committees being taken over by the Executive, scope. In doing so, it seeks to fulfil the policy objective but the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission of the democracy task force, chaired by my right hon. is chaired by the hon. Member for Gosport (Sir Peter and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke), Viggers) and is operated on a very collaborative basis. If in which my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West we are talking about a Public Bill Committee on a Hampshire (Sir George Young)was also involved, which contentious piece of legislation, then, yes, of course the concluded that pay awards should be placed in the Whips will influence the Committee of Selection, but hands of an independent body by statute. for this kind of Committee, the individuals selected to serve on it do so because of their commitment to this It is curious—it can be a product only of the undue House and, in this case, to the Electoral Commission—and haste that comes when a Government convince themselves it has worked extremely well. I have no reason to think that they need what they have described as “emergency that that should not also be the case here. legislation”—that the Bill does not already contain a provision of this type. It is particularly odd that clause 2 I do not accept what the right hon. and learned perpetuates the setting of pay by resolution, when it has Gentleman says about Leaders of the House, and I am so manifestly caused so much difficulty for everybody not just speaking for myself, but for other Leaders of in the past. the House. As I have witnessed, they have stood up for the interests of the House not just here, but inside Even so, it is not primarily to avoid controversy that I Government—repeatedly and assiduously—as well. feel that the amendment is necessary. It is necessary primarily because, as I suggested a few moments ago, We are always open to suggestions for improvement, the current arrangements are still wrong in principle: but paragraph 1 of schedule 3 provides that of eight nobody should set their own pay—not even MPs, and members, only one can be a Minister of the Crown—it the public might say especially MPs. I think that the would be the Leader of the House. I will give further public are right about that. Other democracies have consideration to the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s addressed this issue and mostly have put it right by suggestion to have some requirement to ensure a balance removing the right of MPs, or their elected representatives, between the parties. to set their own pay. An appendix to the Baker review Question put and agreed to. sets out a wide range of other countries that have taken Schedule 3 agreed to. steps similar to what I am suggesting today. 219 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 220

[Mr. Andrew Tyrie] triggered a sense of loss of trust between MPs and the people who put us here. The amendment would ensure Neither does the amendment represent an effort to that pay is dealt with in accordance with the spirit of secure increases in pay by the back door. I am not a Sir John’s recommendations and with the intentions of supporter of a sharp pay adjustment for MPs; I think the Government as set out yesterday, with those of the that there is a vocational element to the job, which democracy task force, on which I served, and also with should be reflected in the pay that we receive. If one the wishes of my own Front-Bench team. I very much takes that view, however, it also means that the full costs hope that the Government will feel able to support the borne by MPs in the performance of their duties should amendment. be met by allowances, however unpopular that may be to the public. That is why Sir Christopher Kelly’s 7pm investigation will be so important and why the way in which he presents his report, however difficult, will be Alan Duncan: I commend my hon. Friend the Member crucial for the future of the allowances system. for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie) on tabling the amendment. It has considerable merit, being both ingenious and This is emergency legislation and it, including the uncontentious. It contains a lot of sense and I hope that amendment, will need to be reviewed. I think that that the Government will see fit to accept it. will be best done by a sunset clause, which I have not yet had an opportunity to table, but I hope will be tabled in The purpose of the Bill is to set up an independent the other place—[Interruption.] I am pleased to hear Fees Office designed to administer and set allowances. that a sunset clause has been tabled by my colleagues. In its current proposed form, it is designed to administer— The arrangements in my small amendment would be that is to say, pay—salaries. In the long term, we want able to be reviewed on that basis, prior to the expiry of to ensure that everything that is paid to Members of the sunset clause. Parliament, be it pensions, salary or allowances, is determined by an outside body rather than by ourselves. I believe that a review will eventually be needed for a As the Bill stands, it goes only some way towards doing number of reasons. I have already alluded to the first—that that, but the amendment would take us a marginal step the amendment will need to be considered in the light of further in the direction of having an outside body Sir Christopher Kelly’s recommendations. Secondly, the determine our salary. Crucially—and sensibly, at this weighted index built into the Baker proposal may, for awkward time—as well as removing Members from the some unforeseen reason, become distorted. That has process, it would prevent the Executive from inevitably happened in the past, which has required making changes attempting to intervene to reject the recommendation to indexation. of the SSRB or to amend it. As such, it would introduce Thirdly, pensions are not fully dealt with by Sir John a measure of automaticity into the way in which our Baker, on his own admission, and we would be pay is adjusted and prevent the contentious political incorporating what he has said on pensions. As it happens, shenanigans that bedevil this issue. I have long favoured an end to the final salary scheme The two resolutions in question are the one that for MPs, starting with new entrants, and its replacement was passed on 3 July last year and the accompanying by a defined contribution scheme. In view of what is money resolution. The amendment would entrench the happening in the private sector right across the country, adjudication of any increases that follow. It would link I believe that that is the only way forward. our pay to a package of comparators, including public Fourthly, I am not absolutely sure that the indexation service workers—in the NHS, school teachers, the armed scheme being proposed by Sir John Baker as the basis forces and the civil service, including HMRC—and it for law by resolution is necessarily the best one. I would would also introduce an annual review. In making that have favoured UK average earnings rather than public link, it would not only remove many of the contentious sector earnings as the basis, which would include the arguments about how much we should be paid, but private sector. With a linkage to public sector earnings, prevent the political intervention that normally follows. it could be argued that MPs would receive disproportionate We should be realistic and accept that the regime set protection in a downswing, as now. Vice versa, of course, up by the amendment would be an interim measure. we would benefit disproportionately when UK Inc. is The Bill does not allow for the external assessment and doing particularly well. These are all issues to which we setting of our pay, so the amendment would be in place can return when the sunset clause, which I hope is built until the primary legislation was amended. If in future into the Bill, takes effect. we were to bolt on to this Bill a broader responsibility My final reason for suggesting an eventual review is to consider the entire pay and rations of Members of that even if this amendment were made, there would Parliament, and potentially Ministers, this interim regime still be some discretion left to Parliament through the would be replaced by giving the IPSA responsibility for vote on estimates. The only technical way of removing setting our pay, allowances and pension. pay completely from the grasp of the House of Commons The amendment would set up an effective, depoliticising would be to pay MPs from the Consolidated Fund in and interim regime that would do much to improve the the same way as the Speaker or judges, for example, are basis on which our pay is set, and as such it is entirely in paid. The Government would then be unable to control the spirit of the Bill. I urge the Committee to support the remuneration through votes on estimates, but that is the amendment. a bigger issue and is not for now; it can be clarified as part of a later review. Mr. Shepherd: My hon. Friend the Member for Rutland In the meantime, the amendment will do at least and Melton (Alan Duncan) used the word “automaticity” something to restore public trust by removing the about our pay: I take an entirely different view, of opportunity for MPs to vote on their pay, which is, course. It has been a historic function of a self-governing along with allowances, one of the big issues that have Parliament to set its own pay and be responsible and 221 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 222 accountable to those who send us here. I remember the Alan Duncan: It is fantastic. voices of Enoch Powell and Michael Foot arguing that very point: what we do will ultimately always be judged Mr. Shepherd: My hon. Friend says that it is fantastic. by the electorate. We should not have some independent That tells us what is happening to Front Benchers. outside authority setting our pay. Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) We have had many comparators over the year, and we (LD): As a Front Bencher, I am now not sure whether I know who they are. It is true that the Government, in want to speak after all. the exigencies of the economic situation, say that it is The hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills not an appropriate time to increase pay, but in my (Mr. Shepherd) gave a passionate exposition of the mixed constituency—it is not a wealthy one—the amount sovereignty of Parliament, but nothing in the amendment that we currently receive is not greatly challenged. The alters that. Given that Parliament can pass statute, the whole point of the Bill is to address those issues that are statute that we are attempting to pass tonight can be seriously challenged—the construction of an expenses revisited by Parliament at any time, and given that we system that was beyond the understanding of most of have that sovereignty, we can decide that it is in the us who have been here for 30 years. We had no idea that current interests of Parliament and the body politic for furniture could be bought—that had been added on to the judgment to be passed to an external authority to be the system. implemented by that external authority. We are perfectly The amendment would turn away from something entitled to make that decision and, because we have very fundamental to the purpose of this House. We are sovereignty, to do it in the way that has been proposed. the central authority and the representatives of the I believe that the amendment builds on the public people. That is why we have the concept of the sovereignty trust that is being sought through the creation of an of Parliament. In all my years here, I have argued that agency to deal with our expenses and allowances, and the sovereignty of Parliament is a shorthand for the given that salaries are so intertwined with expenses and sovereignty of the people. We have become some sort of allowances, it seems to me to be an important step sleek agency that outsources and has specialists coming forward. The hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie) in to tell us what is appropriate. At the end of the day, pointed out that there would subsequently be a sunset the House can still vote down all the recommendations clause debate, which means that it will be possible to that are put to it. If it does so at the behest of the revisit any imperfections in any of the legislation that is Government Whips, that is a matter of judgment. being rushed through now if the Government accept My hon. Friend the Member for North Essex the sunset clause. However, I think that at this stage we (Mr. Jenkin) yesterday made reference to the American should focus on the financial aspects of the Bill, and system, which experiences the same difficulties. In the that the Government should respond positively to the US, they have an even greater impediment than we do. amendment. As I understand it, the salaries of federal employees cannot be greater than those of the elected representatives. Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I was impressed, to a If we put our salaries up to £120,000, we would fear a degree, by some of the arguments presented by the hon. revolt in the homelands, because people would think Member for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie), but I am not fully that that was excessive. We tend, therefore, to be very persuaded that we should tie the reference in clause 2(1) timorous, and that is the dilemma that elected members to a single set of resolutions of the House. After all, a in the US faced. They could not hire people to work in number of Members who seem to support the amendment the federal service because they had so suppressed their said earlier that part of their problem with the Bill was own wages. That happened under Reagan, and eventually that it would pre-empt the Kelly review. Many said that something had to be done about the representatives’ Kelly would examine issues much wider than the issue salaries. After investigation and adjudication, they came of the allowances scheme. It is true that some of the to the conclusion that they should not set the rate for questions that Kelly has asked and some of the answers themselves, but set it at the end of a session. So in this that have been submitted touch on considerations relating country we would set the rate at the end of a Parliament to such matters as salaries, and on how there might be a not for the existing Members, but for those who form recalibration between the two. the next Parliament. Some of those who set that pay would stand at the election, and would therefore face Mr. Tyrie: May I point out to the hon. Gentleman the critical judgment of the electors as to whether the that pay is specifically excluded from the terms of rate was excessive. reference set by Sir Christopher Kelly for his review? We should not be swept away by fads or crazes, or set Mark Durkan: Pay, in terms of salary, is excluded, every quango in existence over us. We are representative but treatment of some of the issues is not. We need only of something far greater than ourselves. This is Parliament. examine some of the submissions to Kelly to see that It is 800 years old. It came about because we were trying there have been suggestions that the way in which some to restrain the authority of the monarch. Now we want matters are treated should be recalibrated, whether they to make this place subservient again. It is suggested that are treated as being presumed to have been built into we would be better validated if a quango authorised and covered by salaries or by allowances. For instance, a our affairs. No: we should take the responsibility. We number of the submissions have touched on whether should face our electorate, and I suggest that it should there should be a subsistence allowance. Some people be done at the end of a Parliament in order to benefit say that salaries should be reviewed to ensure that such the next Parliament. That is why there is not universal costs are taken fully into account. Some have even consensus on my hon. Friend’s proposal. The automat—I suggested that second homes should be presumed to be cannot even say it; it sounds like a launderette—the covered by salaries rather than allowances, and that automaticity is ghastly. salaries should be reviewed accordingly. 223 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 224

[Mark Durkan] what has been said in the debate on the amendment, we may find ourselves doing—or a new way of calculating If, as some have said, Kelly should be allowed to Members’ salaries, IPSA would have to cease to be the return to look at the whole picture, we cannot have it payment authority. My hon. Friend the Member for both ways. We cannot say that we cannot tie ourselves Foyle made that point. As a result, it would be necessary or Kelly in the Bill. My fear is that, while the amendment to pass new legislation—for which some Members seem might not tie Kelly, it might tie us in the future, and that to be setting us up—to enable IPSA to pay salaries we may be freer without it. under the new regime, or to set up a new payment system within the House. That is a complicated set of Alan Duncan: May I respectfully point out that even options, and by that point the House might no longer if Sir Christopher Kelly and his committee made have access to funds with which to make the payments. recommendations about salaries, the Bill in its present form would not give IPSA the power to do anything If Members propose to ensure that the House does about them? The amendment would provide an anchor, not seek to resile from the resolution of last July allowing or foundation, for the salary issue, on which Sir Christopher our salaries to be set automatically—and there has been Kelly’s recommendations on allowances could fit, along much discussion of the automatic nature of the current with the recommendations of the Senior Salaries Review mechanism—I suggest that it would not have that effect. Body. If we needed to do anything abut salaries in the The amendment would not bind the House; it would future, there would need to be an amendment to this only bind IPSA. It would lead to chaos and confusion— primary legislation in any event, which could amend my which, of course, may be the intention in some cases—if hon. Friend’s proposal and do something about salaries the House ever were to change its arrangements, and I at the same time. urge the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie) to withdraw the amendment. 7.15 pm Mark Durkan: But that would mean our agreeing Mr. Tyrie: I wish to press the amendment to a Division. that the legislation was purely temporary. I know that Question put, That the amendment be made:— some have favoured a sunset clause elsewhere in the Bill, The Committee divided: Ayes 189, Noes 295. but I do not think it necessary for us to be confined in this part to a single day’s resolutions rather than being Division No. 169] [7.19 pm covered by “relevant resolutions of the House”. AYES We could automatically create a situation in which we Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Duncan, Alan would be required to re-legislate in circumstances in Alexander, Danny Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain which we could pass future resolutions that could take Amess, Mr. David Dunne, Mr. Philip care of themselves in a fairly mature way without Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Ellwood, Mr. Tobias having to amend the Bill. One of the aims of the Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Evennett, Mr. David amendment is to make us revisit the legislation by way Atkinson, Mr. Peter Fallon, Mr. Michael Baker, Norman Farron, Tim of more amendments than I think would be appropriate. Baldry, Tony Featherstone, Lynne If we are saying that we want, by virtue of the Bill and Barker, Gregory Foster, Mr. Don other measures, to reach a point at which we no longer Barrett, John Fox, Dr. Liam spend so much time determining, deciding, debating Beith, rh Sir Alan Francois, Mr. Mark and legislating in respect of our own salaries, why table Benyon, Mr. Richard Fraser, Christopher an amendment that forces us to legislate again on the Beresford, Sir Paul Garnier, Mr. Edward very issue of pay? Binley, Mr. Brian Gauke, Mr. David Blunt, Mr. Crispin George, Andrew The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of Bone, Mr. Peter Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl the House of Commons (Barbara Keeley): My hon. Brady, Mr. Graham Goodman, Mr. Paul Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) has already Brake, Tom Goodwill, Mr. Robert put very well the point that I want to make. We should Brazier, Mr. Julian Gove, Michael not pre-empt the Kelly review, we should tie the issue of Brokenshire, James Gray, Mr. James pay to a single set of resolutions of the House, and we Brooke, Annette Grayling, Chris should not agree to what we see as temporary legislation Browne, Mr. Jeremy Green, Damian in circumstances in which we can forge for the future. Burns, Mr. Simon Greening, Justine Burrowes, Mr. David Grieve, Mr. Dominic Mr. Tyrie: The Minister seems to be ignorant of the Burt, Alistair Gummer, rh Mr. John fact that pay is not part of the Kelly review. Also, she Burt, Lorely Hague, rh Mr. William seems to have forgotten that her own Secretary of State Butterfill, Sir John Hammond, Mr. Philip has described this as emergency legislation, which by Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hammond, Stephen definition is generally considered to be temporary and Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Hancock, Mr. Mike something to which we return in due course. Carswell, Mr. Douglas Hands, Mr. Greg Cash, Mr. William Harper, Mr. Mark Barbara Keeley: I can tell the hon. Gentleman at the Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Heald, Mr. Oliver outset that we will not be accepting his amendment. Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Heathcoat-Amory, rh The amendment limits IPSA’s power to pay Members’ Cormack, Sir Patrick Mr. David salaries set in accordance with the resolutions passed by Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Hemming, John the House last July, which set out the formula whereby Crabb, Mr. Stephen Hendry, Charles the SSRB was to calculate the annual change in our Davis, rh David Hoban, Mr. Mark salaries. That would mean that if in the coming months Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas we decided to adopt new resolutions—which, given Dorries, Nadine Hollobone, Mr. Philip 225 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 226

Holloway, Mr. Adam Robathan, Mr. Andrew Benton, Mr. Joe Follett, Barbara Holmes, Paul Robertson, Hugh Berry, Roger Foster, Mr. Michael Horam, Mr. John Rogerson, Dan Betts, Mr. Clive (Worcester) Horwood, Martin Rosindell, Andrew Blackman, Liz Foster, Michael Jabez Howarth, David Ruffley, Mr. David Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta (Hastings and Rye) Howarth, Mr. Gerald Russell, Bob Blears, rh Hazel Francis, Dr. Hywel Howell, John Sanders, Mr. Adrian Blizzard, Mr. Bob Gapes, Mike Huhne, Chris Scott, Mr. Lee Blunkett, rh Mr. David Gardiner, Barry Hurd, Mr. Nick Selous, Andrew Borrow, Mr. David S. George, rh Mr. Bruce Jack, rh Mr. Michael Shapps, Grant Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Gerrard, Mr. Neil Jackson, Mr. Stewart Smith, Sir Robert Brennan, Kevin Gilroy, Linda Jones, Mr. David Soames, Mr. Nicholas Brown, Lyn Godsiff, Mr. Roger Kawczynski, Daniel Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Goodman, Helen Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Spicer, Sir Michael Brown, Mr. Russell Griffith, Nia Key, Robert Spring, Mr. Richard Browne, rh Des Griffiths, Nigel Kirkbride, Miss Julie Stanley, rh Sir John Bryant, Chris Grogan, Mr. John Knight, rh Mr. Greg Streeter, Mr. Gary Buck, Ms Karen Gwynne, Andrew Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Stuart, Mr. Graham Burden, Richard Hain, rh Mr. Peter Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Stunell, Andrew Burgon, Colin Hall, Mr. Mike Lamb, Norman Swayne, Mr. Desmond Burnham, rh Andy Hall, Patrick Laws, Mr. David Swinson, Jo Butler, Ms Dawn Hamilton, Mr. David Leech, Mr. John Swire, Mr. Hugo Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Leigh, Mr. Edward Syms, Mr. Robert Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Hanson, rh Mr. David Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Tapsell, Sir Peter Cairns, David Harris, Mr. Tom Lewis, Dr. Julian Taylor, Mr. Ian Campbell, Mr. Alan Havard, Mr. Dai Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Taylor, Dr. Richard Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Lidington, Mr. David Teather, Sarah Caton, Mr. Martin Heppell, Mr. John Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Thurso, John Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hesford, Stephen Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Timpson, Mr. Edward Chapman, Ben Heyes, David Loughton, Tim Turner, Mr. Andrew Clapham, Mr. Michael Hill, rh Keith Luff, Peter Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Clark, Paul Hood, Mr. Jim Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Vaizey, Mr. Edward Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Main, Anne Vara, Mr. Shailesh Clelland, Mr. David Hope, Phil Malins, Mr. Humfrey Viggers, Sir Peter Clwyd, rh Ann Hopkins, Kelvin Maples, Mr. John Walker, Mr. Charles Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hosie, Stewart Mates, rh Mr. Michael Wallace, Mr. Ben Cohen, Harry Howarth, rh Mr. George Maude, rh Mr. Francis Walter, Mr. Robert Connarty, Michael Howells, rh Dr. Kim McIntosh, Miss Anne Wareing, Mr. Robert N. Cooper, Rosie Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Waterson, Mr. Nigel Cooper, rh Yvette Hughes, rh Beverley Mercer, Patrick Watkinson, Angela Cousins, Jim Humble, Mrs. Joan Miller, Mrs. Maria Webb, Steve Crausby, Mr. David Hutton, rh Mr. John Milton, Anne Whittingdale, Mr. John Creagh, Mary Iddon, Dr. Brian Moore, Mr. Michael Williams, Hywel Cruddas, Jon Illsley, Mr. Eric Moss, Mr. Malcolm Williams, Mark Cryer, Mrs. Ann Irranca-Davies, Huw Mulholland, Greg Williams, Mr. Roger Cummings, John James, Mrs. Siân C. Mundell, David Williams, Stephen Cunningham, Mr. Jim Jenkins, Mr. Brian Murrison, Dr. Andrew Willott, Jenny Cunningham, Tony Johnson, rh Alan Newmark, Mr. Brooks Wilshire, Mr. David David, Mr. Wayne Johnson, Ms Diana R. O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Wilson, Mr. Rob Davies, Mr. Dai Jones, Helen Öpik, Lembit Winterton, Ann Davies, Mr. Quentin Jones, Lynne Penning, Mike Winterton, Sir Nicholas Dean, Mrs. Janet Jones, Mr. Martyn Denham, rh Mr. John Jowell, rh Tessa Price, Adam Yeo, Mr. Tim Prisk, Mr. Mark Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Joyce, Mr. Eric Young, rh Sir George Pugh, Dr. John Dismore, Mr. Andrew Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Younger-Ross, Richard Randall, Mr. John Dobbin, Jim Keeble, Ms Sally Redwood, rh Mr. John Tellers for the Ayes: Doran, Mr. Frank Keeley, Barbara Reid, Mr. Alan Jeremy Wright and Dowd, Jim Keen, Alan Rennie, Willie James Duddridge Drew, Mr. David Keen, Ann Durkan, Mark Kelly, rh Ruth NOES Eagle, Angela Kemp, Mr. Fraser Eagle, Maria Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Abbott, Ms Diane Bailey, Mr. Adrian Efford, Clive Kidney, Mr. David Ainger, Nick Baird, Vera Ellman, Mrs. Louise Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Banks, Gordon Engel, Natascha Knight, rh Jim Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Barlow, Ms Celia Ennis, Jeff Kumar, Dr. Ashok Allen, Mr. Graham Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Etherington, Bill Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Anderson, Mr. David Battle, rh John Farrelly, Paul Lammy, rh Mr. David Anderson, Janet Bayley, Hugh Field, rh Mr. Frank Laxton, Mr. Bob Armstrong, rh Hilary Beckett, rh Margaret Fitzpatrick, Jim Lazarowicz, Mark Atkins, Charlotte Begg, Miss Anne Flello, Mr. Robert Lepper, David Austin, Mr. Ian Bell, Sir Stuart Flint, rh Caroline Levitt, Tom Austin, John Benn, rh Hilary Flynn, Paul Lewis, Mr. Ivan 227 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 228

Love, Mr. Andrew Russell, Christine Clause 3 Lucas, Ian Ryan, rh Joan Mactaggart, Fiona Salter, Martin MPS’ ALLOWANCES SCHEME Malik, Mr. Shahid Sharma, Mr. Virendra Mallaber, Judy Shaw, Jonathan Mann, John Sheerman, Mr. Barry Mr. Tyrie: I beg to move amendment 68, page 2, line Marris, Rob Shepherd, Mr. Richard 11, at end insert— Marsden, Mr. Gordon Sheridan, Jim ‘( ) the Committee on Standards in Public life’. Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Simon, Mr. Siôn Martlew, Mr. Eric Simpson, Alan The Temporary Chairman: (Mr. Roger Gale) With Mason, John Simpson, David this it will be convenient to discuss the following: McCabe, Steve Singh, Mr. Marsha McCarthy, Kerry Skinner, Mr. Dennis Amendment 26, page 2, line 14, at end insert— McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Slaughter, Mr. Andy ‘(ca) members of the House of Commons.’. McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Amendment 71, page 2, line 15, at end insert— McCrea, Dr. William Smith, Ms Angela C. ‘(da) HM Revenue and Customs,’. McDonagh, Siobhain (Sheffield, Hillsborough) McDonnell, John Smith, Geraldine New clause 10—Taxation etc— McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Smith, rh Jacqui ‘(1) In administering House of Commons salaries the IPSA McFall, rh John Snelgrove, Anne will make arrangements for the deduction and payment of McGrady, Mr. Eddie Soulsby, Sir Peter income tax and national insurance contributions and provide McIsaac, Shona Southworth, Helen Members with relevant details for return purposes. McKechin, Ann Spellar, rh Mr. John (2) In the context of administering the Members of McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Spink, Bob Parliament’s allowances scheme the IPSA will engage with Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Starkey, Dr. Phyllis HMRC on the appropriate tax treatment of property, items or Meale, Mr. Alan Stoate, Dr. Howard benefits funded or part-funded by the allowances scheme and Michael, rh Alun Strang, rh Dr. Gavin shall provide members with appropriate details for submission in Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Straw, rh Mr. Jack their tax returns. Miliband, rh David Stuart, Ms Gisela (3) The IPSA shall provide general guidance to Members on Miliband, rh Edward Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry relevant principles and considerations of due parliamentary Miller, Andrew Tami, Mark standards to be reflected in the preparation and submission of Moffatt, Laura Taylor, Ms Dari their tax returns, in particular as they relate to property, items or Mole, Chris Taylor, David benefits funded or part-funded by the Members of Parliament’s Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Thomas, Mr. Gareth allowances scheme and such other costs as may be presented as Morden, Jessica Thornberry, Emily work-related expenses in connection with their role as a Member Morgan, Julie Timms, rh Mr. Stephen of Parliament. Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Todd, Mr. Mark (4) The IPSA shall consult with HMRC in preparing and Mudie, Mr. George Touhig, rh Mr. Don revising the guidance referred to in subsection (3). Mullin, Mr. Chris Trickett, Jon Munn, Meg Turner, Dr. Desmond Murphy, Mr. Denis Turner, Mr. Neil Mr. Tyrie: This relatively small amendment is significant, Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Twigg, Derek because it would add the Committee on Standards in Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Ussher, Kitty Public Life to the list of people and bodies that IPSA O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Vis, Dr. Rudi would have a statutory duty to consult when preparing O’Hara, Mr. Edward Walley, Joan or revising the MPs’ allowances scheme. Olner, Mr. Bill Waltho, Lynda I find it astonishing that the Government could have Osborne, Sandra Ward, Claire drawn up a long and apparently comprehensive list of Owen, Albert Watson, Mr. Tom people to consult, which includes the Leader of the Palmer, Dr. Nick Watts, Mr. Dave House, the Speaker, any Committee of the House of Pearson, Ian Weir, Mr. Mike Commons, the Senior Salaries Review Body and the Plaskitt, Mr. James Whitehead, Dr. Alan Pope, Mr. Greg Wicks, rh Malcolm Treasury, yet succeeded in excluding the one body and Pound, Stephen Williams, rh Mr. Alan the one person to have been specifically charged by the Prentice, Bridget Williams, Mrs. Betty Prime Minister with examining the issue. Prentice, Mr. Gordon Wills, rh Mr. Michael The revision of the scheme may well be necessary in Primarolo, rh Dawn Wilson, Phil the light of the recommendations of Sir Christopher Prosser, Gwyn Winnick, Mr. David Kelly. It is simply not true to say that his group is Purchase, Mr. Ken Winterton, rh Ms Rosie looking just at the content of the allowances, as the Purnell, rh James Wishart, Pete Secretary of State suggested earlier today—I believe he Rammell, Bill Wood, Mike did so yesterday too. The group is not engaged in Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Wright, Mr. Anthony a study with the intention merely of making Reed, Mr. Jamie Wright, David Riordan, Mrs. Linda recommendations that can be slotted into the Bill Wright, Mr. Iain Robertson, Angus afterwards; it is looking widely at allowances, including Wright, Dr. Tony Robertson, John the structure of allowances and the compliance structure Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Tellers for the Noes: that lies behind them, as I found out when I gave oral Rooney, Mr. Terry Mr. Frank Roy and evidence to it the week before last. Ruane, Chris Mrs. Sharon Hodgson The absence of any reference to the Committee on Standards in Public Life in this clause—indeed, there is Question accordingly negatived. almost no reference to it in the entire Bill—raises the possibility that IPSA could, although I do not think Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill. that it would, ignore Sir Christopher’s recommendations. 229 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 230

We could find ourselves in the crazy position where all change the rules on the treatment of benefits in kind the parties are falling over themselves to say that they and various other work-related benefits and subsidies, agree with his recommendations, but because of how issues will arise from time to time. Those matters are the Bill is drafted IPSA could then completely ignore best addressed by the authority speaking directly to the the political parties and those recommendations, and independent professional people who are handling and do something completely different. I am confident that interpreting those issues, namely Her Majesty’s Revenue nothing in the Bill would prevent such a situation—even and Customs. So, if the authority proposes significantly my amendment would not. However, my amendment to change the allowance system, create some new allowances would at least require IPSA to consult Sir Christopher or insist that certain allowances should be available for Kelly before coming to its conclusions, which is why it is particular purposes on the basis of particular entitlements, an essential minimum that we should add to this Bill in it is right that due consideration and due regard should order to ensure that his recommendations are given be given in advance of any possible unforeseen tax proper consideration. I very much hope that the implications. Similarly, as the tax rules change—as approved Government will be able to agree to the amendment. by this House and tabled by Government—it would be necessary from time to time for the authority to liaise Mr. Grieve: I welcome the amendment tabled by my with and talk to HMRC to see whether the changes hon. Friend, because it is entirely sensible. The Government affect how parliamentary allowances are treated. It will also see that Conservative Members have tabled seems to me to be sensible and proper that we should do amendment 26, which would provide that Members of that. Parliament should be consulted too. Given our number, New clause 10 has been tabled because, at the minute, it would be perfectly feasible for that to happen without the Bill would have the new Independent Parliamentary any difficulty. A letter could go out to every Member Standards Authority see nothing, say nothing and consider and they could then make the relevant representations. nothing in relation to taxation and parliamentary standards. It is not adequate that representations should simply be If we are saying that one reason that the Bill is necessary made by the intermediary of one or two Committees. I is the concern and consternation that has been raised by very much hope that the Minister will be able to respond the recent revelations, we have to remember that that positively to our proposal too. concern and consternation does not relate solely to the I note that other proposals have been tabled to provide issue of allowances and expenses. It also relates, very for the consultation of other bodies. The hon. Member substantially, to the whole question of MPs’ attitudes to for Foyle (Mark Durkan) has made those proposals. I tax returns. am less certain that it is necessary to consult Her The whole question of flipping, as it is called, is not Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, but he will doubtless just a matter of people using the designation of a be able to speak for himself on that, and I shall also property to draw down expenses in respect of one leave him to discuss his new clause. property and then to do so in respect of another. Flipping goes to the heart of the question of capital Mark Durkan: Obviously, I rise to speak to gains tax, and of people being able to avoid capital amendment 71 and new clause 10, which are tabled in gains tax in a way that has scandalised some but that my name. I begin by noting and accepting the strong was obviously within the rules and was the approach case that has been made for amendment 68. The House that was advised by people in the Revenue at the time as would reject it at the risk of creating a very serious well as by others. misunderstanding and misapprehension. If we were not to include the Committee on Standards in Public Life in Mr. Grieve: I interrupt the hon. Gentleman because this statutory consultation list at a time when that although I appreciate what he is trying to do—indeed, it Committee is carrying out work on this issue and is might be the right thing to do—the difficulty is that, as I conducting hearings—indeed, it is to take evidence in understand it, the Revenue might take a completely Belfast tomorrow—that would send out the signal that different view of matters from the morality view. It is we were legislating in deliberate disregard of the important indeed right that that might have got MPs into terrible work of that Committee. I therefore believe that we trouble, and some MPs have repaid—or tried to repay— would be wise to accept the sensible amendment tabled sums to the Revenue. I am not sure whether they have by the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie). been able to do that successfully, unless they have improperly On amendment 26, I am less convinced about insisting withheld tax. It does not seem to me to be the role of on statutory consultation with all Members of Parliament, the Revenue to conform its rules to those that the because that would take us back in another direction. House might wish to impose on its Members. I wonder Clearly, other interests who have responsibilities in this whether this might create a bigger muddle than the one House and have regard to the needs, circumstances and we have at present. rights of people in it are factored into this consultation, so I am unsure whether it needs to be extended to all Mark Durkan: Nothing in new clause 10 imposes any Members. duty on HMRC. It is not obliged to conform to anything. On amendment 71, the reason I believe HMRC needs Amendment 71 would require consultation between the to be specifically included in the list is because the authority and HMRC so that it can draw up its schemes Treasury is included and it is, thus, easy for people to in the light of what HMRC has said will be the likely misunderstand things and believe that their only reason treatment of any benefits, or that will be the new for consulting the Treasury might be to consider what treatment under new tax rules as they come in. the tax treatment implications would be of different The purpose of each proposed subsection in new allowances—either those that exist or new allowances clause 10 is fairly straightforward. Proposed new that might be created in future. Obviously as Governments subsection (1) will specifically ensure that we recognise 231 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 232

[Mark Durkan] In proposed new subsection (3), I am saying that, given that the authority’s role is in parliamentary standards, that the authority will be handling the issue of salaries it should provide general guidance to Members. I am and that, in doing so, it will be making the deductions not saying that it should be responsible for the tax and payments for tax, national insurance and so on. returns or for all kinds of advice, but that it should That will avoid any doubt that we are talking about the provide general guidance to Members on relevant principles authority’s having an overseeing role and that some of and considerations of due parliamentary standards to the pay functions will be held residually in the Fees be reflected in the preparation and submission of their Office or elsewhere. It is to make it clear that it is the tax returns total function— “in particular as they relate to property, items or benefits funded or part-funded by the Members of Parliament’s allowances.” Mr. Grieve: I appreciate that point, and I hope that it Such guidance should also be provided in relation to would have to follow automatically that IPSA did that. “such other costs as may be presented as work-related expenses”— However, in proposed new subsection (3), the hon. Gentleman wants IPSA to in a tax return— “in connection with their role as a Member of Parliament.” “provide general guidance to Members on relevant principles and considerations of due parliamentary standards to be reflected in I have included that provision because it has been the preparation and submission of their tax returns, in particular revealed in recent times that a number of Members used as they relate to property, items or benefits funded or part-funded their allowances, apparently wrongly, to get assistance by the Members of Parliament’s allowances”. and advice on tax returns that dealt with some of the That is where I think that a much greater difficulty particular requirements of being a Member of Parliament. arises. It seems to me to be turning IPSA into one’s Indeed, it seems that some people were passing around accountant, and I am not sure that that is the right role the cards of people who could give bespoke advice— to request of it. IPSA will be placed in a difficult whether they were qualified or not, I am not sure, but situation when it comes to the question of whether it is they were able to give bespoke advice on tax returns and there to advise MPs on how they should best go about so on. It seems to me that there is something missing their taxation business to minimise tax or to advise when we do not have a source of general guidance them on the standards of morality that should apply to available to us in that regard. their tax returns. Those are two rather different things. It is important that we should recognise that the authority is not just there to police and investigate what 7.45 pm Members do, but to support us in our efforts to do the right thing by way of due parliamentary standards, and Mark Durkan: I think that the hon. and learned we should make it very clear that the authority will Gentleman may be persuaded that it is very clear that provide appropriate guidance to us on such matters. the latter would be the role of IPSA. The situation changes from time to time, and Members The hon. and learned Gentleman referred to proposed can be caught offside because of rule changes that they new subsection (3). I turn now to proposed new do not appreciate—many such things have been referred subsection (2). It provides for the fact that IPSA will to—and it is important to ensure that the authority’s engage with the Revenue commissioners on the tax role includes providing that guidance. To leave it with a treatment of property and benefits that are funded or “pounce and bounce”role towards any Member whenever part-funded by the allowances scheme. It will provide it feels like it or when some member of the public feels details to Members for the purpose of their tax returns, like it seems to me to be odd. which is a follow-on and consequential amendment. We have to recognise that the taxation issue is a Yes, we might have all assumed it, but in these circumstances, matter of concern. It will probably be the next big focal and as some people seemed to be suggesting earlier that point. We know that there is a big issue about second the function in relation to the salary might not rest with jobs and the questions of what needs to be declared in IPSA, I believe that it is important to put proposed new relation to them, but taxation will be another big focal subsections (1) and (2) on the face of the Bill for clarity. point and challenge. We need to make sure that the That would ensure, first, that IPSA would do the pay- authority that we are setting up responds to the concerns as-you-earn and national insurance deductions and would and the sense of scandal that people feel. The public pay them over, and, secondly, that Members would be have an image of the House as being like a good ship provided with the basic tax information they needed for “Lollipop” moored on the Thames, where we all do their salary and on any allowances they received. what we want and try to get what we can. It is important that people do not see us follow cleaning up the allowance Sir Robert Smith: On proposed new subsection (2), it system with cleaning up on the tax system, and they seems to be good employment practice for someone must not perceive that we have unclear rules and no who is providing allowances to ensure that the Member—or clear guidance on tax. If we have complained about the employee in any situation—is provided with accurate lack of them in the past in relation to allowances—and and effective information from which to make their tax Members have said that they were not aware of the return. sensitivities involved or the possibility that claims could be held to be improper or unsuitable—we must make it Mark Durkan: Yes, absolutely. Many Members have very clear that the authority has a duty to provide been criticised and challenged for the way in which they general guidance about tax. were relying on the obscurity of the system, the failures This House is the only place that passes the law on in administration, and so on. We need to be upfront and taxation, including on capital gains tax. We cannot explicit so that we are clear where things lie in future. afford to be casual about whether we comply with the 233 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 234 requirements of the tax law, or about whether those Amendment 26 is also sensible, in that clause 3 should requirements go together with achieving good parliamentary of course contain some reference to Members of standards, and that is why we should make sure that the Parliament. It would not cause any embarrassment, as appropriate provision is in the Bill. Yes, we are human: Members of Parliament would merely be consultees in we know that tax laws and tax compliance can be a list of other consultees. They may well have something difficult to understand and, even with the provision of useful to contribute, so excluding them from the clause general guidance, our tax returns would remain our is a rather strange thing to do. own responsibility. We would also be responsible for the The proposal in amendment 71 that HMRC should advice given by the professional advisers that we hire, also be consulted is also very sensible, although I am but the authority’s guidance role should be made clear. not so sure about new clause 10. Our tax affairs are The need for guidance goes beyond the treatment of somewhat complicated, and the fact that Members items funded, in full or in part, for the purposes of CGT are neither self-employed nor employed means that we or any other tax. We also need it for other items that are a hybrid in tax terms, but all that is clearly understood might be claimed as work-related expenses. My accountant by accountants, who are properly paid for the work that always asks why I do not claim such items, as he says they do. If we are saying, “The Revenue is bound to tell that there must be plenty of things that I could claim as us every single thing that we should or shouldn’t do,” work-related expenses. I do not make such claims—I why should that not be extended to every other profession am sure that others do, and probably quite legitimately—but and trade? the next false dividing line used to determine which Members claim what will be taxation. We all need the Mark Durkan: New clause 10 and its provisions for protection of good advice and guidance that are given general guidance apply only to considerations and principles in the light of considered parliamentary standards. relevant to parliamentary standards. It does not propose There have been stories in the media recently about guidance on how Members can maximise claims or some of the exotic and expensive claims that have been minimise the tax payable. Members who want that must refused by the Fees Office. There are questions about employ their own accountants. The new clause relates whether some of the claims presented in tax returns and only to parliamentary standards, but there are parliamentary approved as work-related expenses were reasonable. If standards issues in relation to tax. significant curbs are placed on the allowances paid to Members in future, will that force them to consider Mr. Llwyd: Of course there are, and we have seen a claiming work-related expenses on their tax forms? few over the past few weeks and months. I accept what Once again, questions will arise about the propriety and the hon. Gentleman says, and I think that his amendment 71 consistency of that approach. is worthy of support. I am still considering new clause If it is left to hon. Members to take their chances in 10, but that is by the by. that regard, or to go with whatever advice they have These amendments are useful, and the debate on been given, it will occur to a person working in the tax them, though short, has been useful too. I hope that the office—just as it did to someone in the Fees Office—that Government will take note of everything that has been the range of practices is very wide, and that all sorts of said. things are being tried on. That person will then take away a disc, and in a year or two a job will be done, like Mr. Nicholas Soames (Mid-Sussex) (Con): In a long the one that we have just seen in The Daily Telegraph, and highly competitive field, this is by any stretch of the on tax matters. If we reject the new clause, or if we do imagination a very foolish Bill. That is exemplified by not make similar provision in the Bill, we will then rush clause 3, and I wish to support amendment 69, moved to say, “Shock! Horror! We didn’t realise tax was also by my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie), going to be an issue in relation to parliamentary standards”, on including the Committee on Standards in Public even though we have been served absolute and due Life in the consultation process. notice of that. Sir Christopher Kelly is a mild-mannered and sensible Proposed new subsection (4) of new clause 10 would man, but if I were him I would be outraged that I had merely ensure that, when IPSA is preparing the general not been consulted by the Government. He has already guidance for Members, it would consult with Revenue started his work, but to some extent that has been and Customs so that the guidance was more reliable. It negated by the introduction of this very foolish Bill, would also mean that Members under pressure in years which is designed purely to show that the Prime Minister to come can say that they relied on that guidance. As a is doing something. If I were Kelly, I would be extremely result, they will be in a much stronger position than angry as well that the Bill had been introduced after I Members who said that they relied on advice from the had started the inquiries that the Prime Minister had Fees Office about what expenses claims would be approved. asked me to undertake. Amendment 69 is absolutely essential to the Bill, and I hope that the Minister will Mr. Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC): I take what steps she can to see that it is included. rise to support very strongly amendment 68, in the Incidentally, I believe that the Government tried to name of the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie). It consult on this matter. I was present at two pre-legislative would strengthen the Bill immensely, and it is entirely meetings that the Minister attended, at which it was logical that the Government should accept it. If the clear that the Government were trying to accept body being set up is charged with undertaking the work amendments and arrive at a consensus. However, to that is proposed, we must make sure that it gets the best exclude the Committee on Standards in Public Life and widest possible advice and expertise. I hope that the from the provisions of clause 3 is insulting and—much Government will consider the amendment very carefully. worse—incredibly foolish. 235 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 236

Sir Robert Smith: I want to reinforce the point that It is clear that matters relating to HM Revenue and the Government should accept amendment 68. Clearly, Customs have been serious issues, as the hon. Member the Committee on Standards in Public Life is relevant for Foyle said, and I am sure that it would be appropriate to the proposals on allowances, and it seems blindingly to consult HMRC, so we shall accept amendment 71. obvious that it should be involved. We accept the principle that the hon. Member for In relation to amendment 26, the hon. Member for Foyle has outlined in new clause 10, but we shall need to Foyle (Mark Durkan) said that Members should not look at the drafting so, if it is acceptable to him, we necessarily be consulted, but I disagree. All hon. Members shall do that and table a similar new clause later in the are here to represent their constituents, but many have proceedings. different and even unique needs in terms of the allowance Once the IPSA has drawn up the scheme, it will be system. It is important that that is reflected in the laid before the House and it will reflect the amendments. introduction of the system. The system should be Amendments made: 68, in clause 3, page 2, line 11, at independent, but it should be informed by the variety in end insert— the House. Amendment 71 makes a lot of sense. It makes sense ‘( ) the Committee on Standards in Public life’. —(Mr. Tyrie.) to consult the Revenue because there is an awful lot of Amendment 26, page 2, line 14, at end insert— interaction between expenses and allowance systems ‘(ca) members of the House of Commons.’.(Mr. Grieve.) and the work of the Revenue. Amendment 71, page 2, line 15, at end insert— Under new clause 10, the hon. Member for Foyle ‘(da) HM Revenue and Customs,’.(Mark Durkan) (Mark Durkan) is trying to deal with public concern about the tax treatment of Members. I suspect that the Amendment 1, page 2, line 18, leave out ‘IPSA’ and Revenue might not want to be tied into giving advice insert ‘Speaker’.—(Sir George Young.) over and above that which it gives directly through the Revenue system, so I am not sure that new clause 10 will Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: I beg to move amendment 56, achieve the hon. Gentleman’s objectives. in clause 3, page 2, line 18, at end add ‘and shall not come into effect until they are approved by a resolution of the House of Commons.’. 8pm Barbara Keeley: My job is quite an easy one because The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to we intend broadly to accept the amendments. We are discuss amendment 57, page 2, line 19, leave out from discussing amendments to clause 3, which sets out the ‘effect’ to end of line 20 and insert authority’s duties in setting the scheme for MPs’ allowances ‘only after the general election following the resolution of the and lays an obligation on the authority to prepare a House of Commons referred to in subsection (5).’. scheme, review it regularly and revise it as appropriate. The authority is obliged to consult a number of bodies Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: The amendment provides that about the scheme. That already includes the Leader of the House should approve the allowances system that the House, the Speaker, any committee of the House has been prepared by IPSA. It brings this aspect of the nominated by the Speaker, the review body on senior clause into line with clause 5, whereby the scheme of salaries, the Treasury and others, but hon. Members financial interests, and the rules governing that will be have tabled some useful amendments in this short debate. approved by the House, having been recommended by I thank the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and IPSA. I believe that we should do the same for the Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith), the hon. and learned allowances system. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve)—the shadow Of course, allowances should be administered externally. Justice Secretary—and the hon. Members for Chichester That is generally agreed. The Fees Office is too close to (Mr. Tyrie), for Foyle (Mark Durkan), for Meirionnydd us and if the Bill had been all about setting up an Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) and for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames) external body to administer, judge and enforce the for their contributions on amendments 68, 26 and 71, expenses system, there would not have been very much which we shall be happy to accept. controversy. However, I believe that the making of the The Committee on Standards in Public Life was not rules, which are then handed over to the external body, included in the list of consultees. It may be necessary to should be decided ultimately by the House. We should consult it at the moment, but it may not be in the future. not permanently transfer to an external body the making It may not be looking at matters that affect IPSA. of the rules. Obviously, we would accept recommendations. However, the hon. Member for Chichester made a good Others would design the system, but the ultimate approval case for including that body, and we are happy to accept should remain here so that they become our rules and it amendment 68. is up to us to defend them, explain them and be elected A number of points have been made about the need on them. I do not believe that a sovereign body should to consult Members of this House, and we are prepared permanently and irreversibly delegate these matters to to accept amendment 26. What we were seeking to do in an external body of whatever kind. not including hon. Members in the list was to avoid Of course we all know that reform is urgently required burdening the consultation process and making it too of the entire expenses system, and that is happening. lengthy, but as hon. Members have just said, there are The second purpose of my amendments is to rescue the differences between Members. London Members are Bill from a collision between what Sir Christopher Kelly different from Members in other parts of the country in and his committee are doing and what IPSA will do. terms of, for instance, their staffing allowances. So there Both are bringing forward proposals on expenses and are issues to consult Members about, and we accept allowances. There is a much bigger collision between that point. the Kelly committee and the Bill. In the Bill, we are 237 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 238 setting into statute matters that are being investigated I believe that the House must have the last word on by Sir Christopher and his committee. This was raised such matters. That is desirable both because we are a yesterday, and remarkably the Justice Secretary denied sovereign Parliament and must decide the rules and be that there was any confusion or conflict here. He said accountable for them, and because, as I have explained, when questioned by my hon. Friend the Member for that would give us discretion if the Kelly inquiry brought Louth and Horncastle (Sir Peter Tapsell): forward rules and suggestions that were incompatible “Sir Christopher Kelly and his committee will come forward with those that we have to accept from IPSA, under the with proposals for the scheme of allowances, … However, that is Bill as drafted. That is why I ask the Government to about the content of the scheme. The Bill is about the operation accept amendment 56. of the scheme”.—[Official Report, 29 June 2009; Vol. 495, c. 50-51.] My second amendment, 57, proposes that any scheme I have to say that that is simply untrue, and the Prime of allowances that is proposed, agreed and accepted by Minister would agree. He made no distinction between us should come into effect only after an election. As I the content and the operation of the scheme when he mentioned yesterday on Second Reading, I borrowed wrote to Sir Christopher Kelly on 23 March. He made it the idea from the 27th amendment to the United States clear in his letter that Sir Christopher was not confined constitution. I will not weary the Committee with a to going into and designing matters of content and long history of that amendment; it is a very long detail about expenses. He wanted that Committee to history. It took more than 200 years for that amendment look at everything. He said: finally to be ratified. It was first proposed in the 18th century. “I would welcome a review of MPs’ support and remuneration, In essence, it prevents any change from being made to including outside interests, carried out by the Committee on the pay and compensation of Senators and Representatives Standards in Public Life as it offers the opportunity to consider until after the next election. “Compensation” is the the full picture. For example, you will have greater freedom to consider issues such as the impact of MPs holding second jobs word used in the amendment to the constitution; it and their roles outside of Parliament.” chiefly refers, I think, to salary, but its meaning could easily be extended to cover allowances and expenses. Mr. Leigh: Is there not an inconsistency in logic here? The amendment to the constitution requires that any On the one hand, we are saying that we should accept such change should take effect only after the next whatever IPSA imposes; on the other hand, the Government intervening election. have been careful to say that they will not necessarily I think that we could adopt a similar system here. It accept what Kelly proposes—in other words, we will be would counter the charge that we are setting our own prepared for a little bit of pain, but perhaps not too pay and allowances. As I have explained, I believe that much from an external source. the House ought to set such matters. A sovereign body should not transfer those matters to any other body. Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: That is exactly the point that Under my amendment, we would not set pay and I am making. We may or may not accept the Kelly allowances for this Parliament and for ourselves; the recommendations; we have discretion on that. However, change would take effect only after an election—after under the terms of the Bill, we have to accept the the implied endorsement of the electorate. scheme brought forward by IPSA. To conclude the point that I was making, in another letter, dated 30 March, the Prime Minister went on to repeat the point 8.15 pm about the breadth of the Kelly inquiry: Mr. Grieve: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for “I am keen you should not feel bound in your discussions but bringing amendments 56 and 57 before the House. I see free to consider a wide set of issues”. his exact purpose in doing so. The difficulty that I The Government could not have been clearer. The Kelly perceive with amendment 56 brings us back to a debate inquiry is looking into everything, including the structure that we had earlier on a fundamental issue—the extent of the allowances and the content of the scheme, yet we to which we wish to set up an independent authority to are legislating for such a scheme in the Bill. regulate our allowances. If it is the desire of the Committee When pressed, the Justice Secretary conceded earlier to have such an authority, so that it can distance itself today that future legislation might be required, so this is from the decisions taken, amendment 56, while it would only an interim Bill. I think that he is already retreating achieve the aim that my right hon. Friend desires, would from his earlier remarks, if I interpret his body language effectively defeat the intention behind the legislation. It rightly, but they are on the record. He must concede would turn IPSA into something very similar to the that there is a conflict between setting up an inquiry Fees Office, as it currently stands. That is a difficult into everything, as required by the Prime Minister, and issue. prejudging that inquiry in a Bill that is being rushed All that I can say to my right hon. Friend is that I do through the House in a week. There is nothing that I not think that the sovereignty of Parliament is involved can do to rescue the Government from that collision in the matter, because just as we have the power to set except try to throw the Bill out, which I tried to do up the authority, which would be at one remove from yesterday by voting against it. us—we would have to accept what it came up with—if However, through my amendment 56, I could at least at a later date we decided that we wanted to get rid of it, prevent the House from having to accept the scheme of we could do so through primary legislation, so the allowances that IPSA will bring forward under clause 3. power remains with us. The question is: to what extent It is required, under the Bill, to bring forward a scheme do we wish to interfere with its daily operation? of allowances, and we do not have any say on it; we have My right hon. Friend makes a powerful point when to accept it. Again, there is a conflict between the Kelly he highlights the fact that when Sir Christopher Kelly’s inquiry findings, which we may or may not accept, and report comes out, there may be incompatibilities between the terms of the Bill, which require the House to accept it and the structure that we have set up. I have no idea the scheme that the IPSA must present. who will be in government when that happens, so all 239 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 240

[Mr. Grieve] amendment or an assurance that the amendment is not necessary because that facility is possible under the Bill that I can say to him is that if there are incompatibilities, as drafted. we will have to have primary legislation to resolve them. Barbara Keeley: The experience of the past few months It is quite apparent that we cannot have those had taught us that some Members may need to take incompatibilities. If they occur, the fault will be due to greater responsibility in future for the allowance claims the way in which the Government approached the matter. made in their name. We want to be sure that, as the right On that, I agree entirely with my right hon. Friend. hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Barbara Keeley: Amendments 56 and 57 would insert Young) outlined, existing arrangements to pay invoices a parliamentary filter into the setting of the allowances or standing payments in respect of a Member are claim, and would delay the introduction of an allowances transferred to the new scheme. The amendment as scheme by setting a scheme for a later Parliament, drafted may raise some technical issues. We want to rather than for now. Both amendments are unacceptable capture the point that payments are made for or in to the Government. It is important, for the restoration respect of a Member. If right hon. and hon. Members of public trust, that we are seen not to set our own pay will allow, we will give the matter further consideration and allowances. As discussed earlier, we have decided as the Bill progresses through Parliament and seek to that we will allow our main pay to be set automatically capture the essence of the amendment. by reference to movement in public sector pay, and a Mr. Grieve: The amendment tabled by my right hon. review will be carried out once in each Parliament by Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George the Senior Salaries Review Body. We will not set our Young)is sensible. When our allowances were published, pay. We must take the same hands-off approach to a constituent pointed out to me that the system by setting our allowances; we on the Labour Benches which we were submitting payments to the Fees Office believe that that is the only thing that will satisfy public was costing more money because direct debit arrangements concern. I urge the Committee of the whole House to would lead to savings. These are all issues that need to reject the amendments. be examined. Given that we are required to provide Amendment 56 negatived. value for money, and given also—I take the Minister’s Clause 3, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. point—that there should be proper scrutiny of what we are claiming for, cost savings could be achieved by direct debit mechanisms, with the money going straight Clause 4 from the Fees Office to the third party.

DEALING WITH CLAIMS UNDER THE SCHEME Sir George Young: The Minister made a helpful reply. I accept the implied rebuke that my drafting is not Sir George Young: I beg to move amendment 6, perfect and that there is somebody somewhere else who page 2, line 32, after ‘to’, insert ‘or on behalf of’. thinks they can do a better job. It would be churlish to The issue raised by the amendment is of a less press the amendment against the undertaking given by constitutional nature than those raised by my right hon. the Minister, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Friend the Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) amendment. in the amendments that we have just discussed. Clause 4 Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. states: Clause 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill. “No allowance is to be paid to a member of the House of Commons under the MPs’ allowances scheme unless a claim for Clause 5 the allowance has been made to the IPSA.” I want to make sure that the facility that exists at MPS’ FINANCIAL INTERESTS RULES present, whereby the allowances are not paid directly to Mr. Straw: I beg to move amendment 74, page 3, a Member, but are paid on his behalf to a third party, line 16, leave out subsections (1) and (2) and insert— can be carried through into the new regime. I was ‘(1) The IPSA must prepare a code to be observed by members concerned that, as drafted, clause 4(1) did not allow of the House of Commons, the content of which is provision that facility. made by virtue of subsections (7), (8) and (10). It is often convenient for Members to pass the invoice (2) In this Act “the MPs’ code of conduct relating to financial on to the Fees Office to be paid with the requisite interests” means the code prepared under this section as it is in authority, rather than to pay it themselves and claim it effect for the time being.’. back. I hope that advantage can remain. Also, the audit trail— The Temporary Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government amendments 75 Sir Robert Smith: I may be interrupting the right hon. and 76. Gentleman as he was about to make the point that with Amendment 16, page 3, line 21, at end insert— the Fees Office paying directly, there is much greater ‘( ) the Speaker of the House of Commons’. clarity about where the money has gone. Amendment 27, page 3, line 23, at end insert— Sir George Young: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. ‘(ba) members of the House of Commons.’. He anticipated the other point that I intended to make. Government amendments 77 to 79. The audit trail is much simpler if the money has gone Amendment 28, page 3, line 29, at end insert straight from the Fees Office to the supplier, rather than ‘save that no member may be required to declare any specified along the more circuitous route via the Member’s bank information relating to any source of outside earned income account. No great oratory is needed to make the case. which would place him in breach of a duty of a confidentiality All I seek from the Government is an acceptance of the laid upon him by any recognised profession.’. 241 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 242

Amendment 7, page 3, line 30, leave out subsection (8). Mr. Straw: I was not suggesting that the two codes Government amendments 80 to 82. would run together—far from it; I was suggesting that Amendment 29, page 4, line 2, after ‘or’, insert ‘specified’. they would be split. The code that relates to the non- financial matters of the House would be pretty thin, Amendment 30, page 4, line 4, after ‘or’, insert ‘specified’. and I therefore think it important that the public and Government amendments 88 to 91. Members be able to find that part of the code which is Government amendments 84 to 87. the vast bulk. It would comprise not only the guide to Amendment 73, page 4, line 16, at end add— the rules relating to the conduct of Members, but the rules of conduct in the Members’ current code of conduct, ‘(c) to payment as, and hours worked as, a Minister.’. wrapped up in a single word: “code”. That is all I am Clause stand part. saying. Mr. Straw: It may assist the Committee if, in addition 8.30 pm to speaking to the Government amendments, I comment Sir George Young: Is it not the case that we will briefly on the other amendments. continue to have the Members’ current code of conduct, Yesterday, to general approbation, I announced that albeit without paragraphs 14 and 16 and the financial the Government would withdraw clause 6. We should bits, and then another code that, if the amendment is get an opportunity to do that later this evening. My agreed to, will be called a “code”? There is a real risk of right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House confusion, because there will be one code produced by attached her name to amendment 83, standing in the the House, our current code of conduct, and another names of right hon. and hon. Members on both sides. I code produced by another body, covering matters that also told the House that there would be certain are tangential but not identical. Would it not be better consequential amendments, and these are they. Essentially, to have just one code and to stick with what we had they replace the word “rules” with until this morning, which was the rest of it being just “a code to be observed by members of the House”. rules? In amendment 74, proposed subsection (2) refers to the Mr. Straw: That is a choice for the Committee, but in my judgment, there are slightly more important issues “code of conduct relating to financial interests”. to get on with. My view is that the amendment would be Why are we doing that? The Committee could spend the more sensible. We would have a code that was like the whole evening on this, or no time at all. I recommend current code but the latter. I am sure all Members have studied the code “a code of conduct relating to financial interests”, of conduct with great care. In addition to the fact that as spelt out by proposed new subsection (2) in 33 pages are devoted exclusively to guidance on financial amendment 74. Like the current code, it would have matters, a significant chunk of the code qua code in the rules and general guidance, too. It would be more than earlier pages is also concerned with financial relationships. a code and more than the rules, just like the current That will go into the scheme that IPSA would have the code, and it would come before the House. responsibility to prepare, but I repeat that it would be subject to decision by the House. Under clause 5(6) it Several hon. Members rose— could not come into effect unless it was approved by the Mr. Straw: I give way to the hon. Member for West House. Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith). There was a suggestion not only from the Government Benches, but from the Leader of the Liberal Democrats, Sir Robert Smith: I should like some clarity from the for example, that there should be a code. In so far as the Secretary of State. Why was the provision in clause 5 public take a close interest in the matter, it makes sense originally worded “financial…rules”? for them to note that the code of conduct will not Mr. Straw: This is a rose by any other name, but now disappear when, as a House production, it becomes it is called a thinner. A large part of it will find its way into that “code of conduct relating to financial interests”. proposed in clause 5. The measure amounts to the same thing; it depends Mr. Grieve: I am not entirely persuaded by the soft- what label one wishes to attach to it. It raises no issues soaping of that change, which is rather fundamental. of principle or privilege whatever. They are separate. We are setting up financial rules and we have a code of Mr. Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): In the hope that conduct. I appreciate that the Government take the we can speed on our way through the clause, I wonder view that, at some point in the future, the commissioner whether my right hon. Friend recalls that, yesterday might have some conjoined role covering not only standards evening, Government Members insisted that it was and privileges, but the investigatory functions in the totally proper that we declare in detail our earnings Bill. However, now does not seem to be the time to run from other interests, but that we thought unworkable the two together, because it would immediately raise the the proposals that we account for the amount of time possibility of our current code of conduct becoming spent in acquiring those earnings. Has he had further subject to IPSA’s remit. Indeed, the Secretary of State thoughts on that in relation to this clause? seemed at least to hint that a revised code could be produced which would wrap the whole thing up into Mr. Straw: Yes, I have, but it may assist the Committee one. The Bill, however, does not seem to authorise that; if I go through the other amendments in this group in we would have to take further decisions. So, for the the order in which they happen to be on my sheet. moment, why not keep the rules separate from the code? On amendment 16, which my hon. Friend the Member If there comes a time when we should join the two for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell) tabled, I shall listen together, we can do so later. carefully to what he has to say before coming to a view. 243 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 244

[Mr. Straw] Mr. Straw: Even in Bills that are not brought in with this speed, sometimes Homer nods and they need Amendment 27, from the Opposition Front-Bench team, refreshment—the language needs to be improved—as would require IPSA to consult Members when preparing one proceeds. That is the purpose of proper scrutiny. and revising Members’ financial interests, and we will of There is not a single Bill in which I have been involved course accept that. in the past 12 years—it is a huge pile now—that has not Amendment 28 proposes that been improved by the process of scrutiny. Sometimes, as a result of amendments being tabled, one discovers “no member may be required to declare any specified information relating to any source of outside earned income which would things that should be improved. I plead guilty to that. place him in breach of a duty of a confidentiality”, Sir Patrick Cormack: I am in a great dilemma. Today and amendment 7 would leave out subsection (8), which the current rules come to an end. As from tomorrow, we is quite a detailed subsection. I want to listen to the are supposed to declare all these timings and things, debate on those two amendments, but I say to all parts which were so brilliantly exposed as odd by the right of the Committee that I accept that the drafting of hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) in his speech subsection (8) is potentially too onerous and restrictive yesterday; I supported him in the course of my own of Members. I do not mean that it is too narrow; it may speech. We now have proposals before us that the be too wide. However, parliamentary counsel are already Secretary of State accepts are imperfect; I infer from looking at whether its basic purpose can be captured in what he says that he wishes to see them altered. The far less onerous language. other problem is that Sir Christopher Kelly was specifically I think that there is general agreement that any scheme asked by the Prime Minister to look at the whole issue for the registration of interests should be backed by and to report on it. We really are in an awful, confused arrangements whereby interests have to be declared. mess. As I have said before, we want clarity, so can we Part 6 of the code of conduct, “Registration and please have some advice from the Justice Secretary? Will Declaration of Interests”, says: the rules that are supposed to come into force tomorrow come into force? How are we affected by what he is “Members shall fulfil conscientiously the requirements of the saying tonight? Can he give an undertaking that whatever House in respect of…registration…and shall always draw attention to any relevant interest in any proceeding of the House or its he says tonight will take second place to what Committees”. Sir Christopher says if he makes different recommendations? Paragraph 77 gives further guidance on how declarations Mr. Straw: The rules that are due to come into force of interest should be made, saying that it should be tomorrow will come into force tomorrow, and that has done “briefly”. I think that we all accept that. I certainly nothing whatever to do with the Bill. Everybody knows accept that, as the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton that to be the case, because the decision about that (Alan Duncan) said, we are now in the age of Google. preceded the Bill’s publication. Those rules will stay in Ten years ago, before Google, someone who wanted to force until they are changed by the House in the normal way. find out whether a Member had a declarable interest I have sought to answer the hon. Gentleman’s point had to go to the Library or to a public library—there about recommendations from Sir Christopher Kelly, was no other way of accessing that information. These but the Bill—even the rather onerous clause 5(8), and days everybody can do it, even from a mobile telephone. clause 5(9), which is linked to it—simply provides a The fact that the consequences of registration are so framework into which his recommendations, as accepted, ubiquitous should mean that the need for declaration is would drop. There is no problem with that, although for less onerous. belt-and-braces reasons I have spelled out what would At the same time, there must be some provision for happen if there were a problem, so we need not go declaring an interest; otherwise, we would get into some down that track again now. extraordinary situations. Somebody may, perfectly properly, Mr. Frank Field: May I bring my right hon. Friend be an adviser to a particular company and wish to say back to the matter of timing? He is correct to say that something—not paid advocacy—in a debate. For example, we approved the rules that are coming into force tomorrow, an adviser to or a director of a defence company may but when we did so we were given four resolutions that have an interest in speaking generally in a defence we had to accept or reject in their entirety. One of the debate. There is no reason why they should not do so, four stated that we should declare our earnings, which I but it is important that that is drawn to the House’s am totally in favour of, but it also stated that we should attention and that of the Member’s constituents. declare how much time we spent on them. Like a lot of people, I did not want to be in the position of seeming Mr. Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): The Justice to be against declaring our earnings, so we voted it Secretary has made some important and practical points. through knowing the time factor involved. However, what astonishes me is that we are faced with a From tomorrow, I will not and cannot fulfil the specific, detailed provision, presumably drawn up by conditions of the House, because of the principles and lawyers in consultation with Ministers, and it looks as practicalities that I outlined yesterday. I shall be fined, though—I welcome this—it is about to fall at the first but I shall not pay the fine, so we will then be in this fence. Why on earth was it introduced in this fashion if ludicrous business of going to prison. Surely that cannot the Justice Secretary now accepts that it is a complete have been the aim. load of nonsense? Can he give us some idea of how he expects us to have to deal with this? At the moment we Mr. Straw: I have known my right hon. Friend for simply say, “I refer to my entry in the Register of more than 30 years, and when we were both traipsing Members’ Interests”, that reminds the House that the around in the rain at a shack on the gyratory system in right hon. or hon. Member has an interest, and if Brixton, waiting to be interviewed by the Effra ward of anybody wants to look it up, they can do so. the Vauxhall constituency Labour party in 1976— 245 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 246

Mr. Field: We were lucky—we were both rejected. up and opines that it has got it all wrong? Is that not simply too difficult and complicated for people who try Mr. Straw: We were indeed, and never was there to follow what we do? salvation more quickly delivered. It struck me then that my right hon. Friend was possessed of many great Mr. Straw: I am genuinely unaware of whether talents but had a wish to end up on the stake or subject Sir Christopher Kelly is concerning himself with rules to some other form of martyrdom. Attractive though I or codes about declarations of interest. I do not think know the stake or the gallows are to him, the prospect that he is. He may be, but— of his proceeding in that way and being fined by the new body is out of the question. Mr. Gerald Howarth: The Prime Minister said so. Several hon. Members rose— Mr. Straw: I have not said so. I am open to correction—I have not given evidence to Sir Christopher Kelly’s Mr. Straw: And on that point, four hon. Members committee, but he appears to be concentrating on the stand up. I give way to the hon. Member for Meirionnydd whole system of allowances and expenses. If he were to Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd). say that there should be some change in categories of registration and declaration, the House would have to Mr. Llwyd: May I take the right hon. Gentleman take that on board, but it is not relevant to the Bill. back to the incisive question asked by the right hon. I say to the right hon. Member for Wokingham Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young)? (Mr. Redwood) that, in due course—it will be quite He dissected the current code of conduct and said that some time—the authority may decide to propose different at some point the non-financial aspects of it would sets of rules in its code for registration and declaration. probably be hived off to the new body. Some of us were It may propose some that would give my right hon. quite happy to hear that clause 6 would disappear from Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) greater the Bill, but it is actually a great concern because that comfort than paragraph 24 of the Green Book about clause stated that the code of conduct would continue declarations of hours. However, that is further down as per the Nolan principles. The deletion of clause 6 will the track. I offer the right hon. Member for Wokingham in fact make it easier for all conduct issues to be taken the comfort that, if the authority made such a proposition, into the new body. it could come into force only if and when it was approved Mr. Straw: I assure the hon. Gentleman that there is by affirmative resolution. no question of responsibility for non-financial conduct Mr. Paul Goodman (Wycombe) (Con): I want to try a matters going to the new authority. That will not be question on the Secretary of State that has nothing to part of its functions. We discussed the matter at some do with Kelly or with the words “code” or “rules”, but length downstairs in the cross-party talks. It would be is pertinent to what he says. As he knows and as outwith its functions and experience, and it would be colleagues have said, the new rules that require Members completely inappropriate for wider issues of conduct to to declare how many hours they work outside this place be subject to scrutiny or determination other than by come into effect tomorrow. According to clause 5, a the House. The Government oppose that; I oppose it; it series of rules will be established. Subsection (6) provides is not in the Bill and we are proceeding on that basis. that they will not come into effect until they are approved Mr. Grieve: I have a growing anxiety as I listen to the by a resolution of the House. If the clause goes on to Secretary of State and watch his body language as he the statute book, is it the case that from that point the explains the provisions. Changing “rules” to “code” rules that come into effect tomorrow will be null and emphasises that the measures we passed a few weeks void until the House passes a resolution on the new ago and that several hon. Members regard as completely rules? The Deputy Leader of the House is shaking her flawed—I shall explain the reasons for that when I head. speak to my amendments—will, the moment the Bill is Mr. Straw: No, it is not. The rules will come into on the statute book, be subject to all the pains and force and, despite what the hon. and learned Member penalties, including criminal offences in so far as they for Beaconsfield has said—that at the moment a breach refer to financial matters, in clause 9. Should we not of the code would not give rise to a criminal offence—it concentrate on that? On the one hand, the Government is certainly the case that, because a failure to comply tell us that they have abandoned the conduct provisions with the requirement in the financial interest rules code in clause 6—to which we all say, “Hooray”—but on the will give rise to an offence under clauses 9(2) and (3), other hand, and with some slight sideways movement, that requirement will have to be very carefully drafted. the Secretary of State attempts to lull us into accepting Indeed, it will have to be more carefully drafted than an unsatisfactory state of affairs, with potentially what is currently in the code. catastrophic consequences for individual Members. This is not supposed to be a debate about paragraph 24 Mr. Straw: I do not accept that. We can have a debate of the current code of conduct, but I just want to make about whether we use “code relating to financial interests” one point. There are 168 hours in a week—that is not a or “rules”. It amounts to the same thing. What is in the matter for argument across the Chamber; it is just true. tin is the same. I merely offer hon. Members who are worried and their constituents this reflection. The European working time Mr. Redwood: Is the Secretary of State saying that directive, whether one likes it or not—some do, some do introducing a new set of financial rules tomorrow could not—prescribes 48 hours as the standard maximum be followed by their substantial amendment when Kelly that one is supposed to work in one job. [Laughter.] reports, and that that could be followed by further Hang on. If colleagues are sleeping normally—eight substantial amendment when the new authority is set hours a day—that will them give them 56 hours. Adding 247 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 248

[Mr. Straw] Minister. I say to everyone here that they would do well to be very careful before accepting the siren songs that those two together gives 104 hours. If we take that away are being sung to them. What we have here is an from 168 hours we get 64 hours, which gives hon. illustration of the utter incoherence at the Bill’s very Members nine hours a day, more or less, to do what core, which could have devastating consequences for they want with and still fulfil their constituency duties. every Member of this House. [Interruption.] I am merely trying to be helpful. First, the Secretary of State tells us that he wishes us Mr. Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): I disagree to change the wording, so that the word “rules” is with my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West replaced by the word “code” throughout the Bill. We Hampshire (Sir George Young). I entered the House of have a code of conduct at the moment. The proposed Commons four years ago, and it is a complete madhouse. change could be entirely cosmetic and pointless—an We are now on our fourth iteration of the Green Book attempt to change the words possibly because the Prime since I got here. The rules have changed on a quarterly Minister promised that there would be a code, and the basis, and now they are changing on an almost fortnightly code in clause 6 has now gone because those provisions basis. We have codes there, codes there—codes everywhere. have been removed. That is one possibility. We are seeing almost a deliberate attempt to criminalise The second possibility, which we need to bear closely every Member of Parliament, because it is now impossible in mind, is that putting the word “code” into the Bill to keep up with what the Government are doing. will have the effect of bringing justiciability on the entirety of the existing code of conduct for hon. Members, Mr. Straw: I apologise, but I cannot quite remember and in future there will be two codes, but they will be when the hon. Gentleman came into the House. conflated into one. We would do well to avoid that Mr. Walker: Four years ago. option. If we do not, justiciability and judicial scrutiny will apply to the financial code and to our own code. Mr. Straw: The House has been struggling to bring Furthermore, I am left with the unpleasant sensation its systems up to date and into a state such as it has that the proposal to change the wording might involve insisted that other institutions and professions bring an attempt to obfuscate future change, so that, when we theirs into, which is one of the reasons, I suggest, why subsequently consider these matters, it might be easier we fell into the abyss of the expenses scandal. With a bit for the House to swallow the bitter pill. of luck, once we get the legislation through and we get the authority established, we will be able to enter a Sir Robert Smith: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman period of much greater stability. That is my hope, and I expand on his logic? The House already has a code, and think that we will do that. another code is proposed in clause 5. Why would the Mr. Jenkin: I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman proposal mean a reverse in justiciability in relation to for missing the opening few minutes of his remarks, our own code? Would not the courts understand that although I was pleased to hear his important comment justiciability would apply to the rules or code in clause 5? about clause 5(8), which he will now take away and redraft. However, could he tell us how that will be done Mr. Grieve: I take the hon. Gentleman’s point. practically? Will he table an amendment tonight that On balance, I prefer my first theory to my second. will be dealt with on Report tomorrow or do we have to Nevertheless, I cannot exclude the second. Having spoken leave that to the House of Lords? We are scrutinising to others who might know more about this than I do, the Bill in very limited time, so it would seem to be and who seem to be more knowledgeable about the awfully late in the day to bring forward such amendments, House’s procedures and rules, I believe that we would welcome though they would be. be very unwise to take this step. As I have said, the Mr. Straw: With the best will in the world, I do not change of wording is either pointless—in which case, if think there will be time to table such an amendment to we want to change it, we can do so when we create the take on Report tomorrow. However, we are a bicameral new body with a single code and possibly a single legislature, and there is no reason on earth why we commissioner doing slightly different things—or we cannot have commitments made in one Chamber and should leave the proposal well alone. amendments moved in the other—indeed, it happens all the time. However, what I also undertake to do—I Mr. Straw: Picking up on the point that was made a should have said this—is to consult— moment ago by the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith), the hon. and learned Mr. Jenkin: Me? Gentleman is making much of the question of potential Mr. Straw: I will indeed consult the hon. Gentleman— justiciability, but there is no basis or warrant for that why not? I cannot promise that we will reach agreement claim on the basis of a change of name. Does he accept, on the draft amendment, but I promise that I will however, that there is a fundamental distinction to be consult him, and I will consult all the others on the made between clause 6 and clause 5? There was anxiety— cross-party group, too. however loosely founded it may have been, I accept that I think that I have spoken for long enough. This has it had a basis in fact—that, because the duty in clause 6 been an unexpectedly entertaining few minutes—for was placed on the House, the House could have been me, anyway—and I shall now listen to the debate. the subject of judicial review. That would have run straight into issues of privilege, which is why I was Mr. Grieve: I was not sure whether to feel sorry for happy to withdraw that clause. The duties under clause 5, the Secretary of State, but I will do so, because he seems however, are on a statutory authority, and it is completely to have been placed in an impossible and ludicrous standard for duties on such an authority to be subject to position—largely, I suspect, by the actions of the Prime scrutiny by the courts. 249 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 250

Mr. Grieve: I listened with care to what the Secretary matter. The fact is that I did only that one case. If I were of State has said, and I am conscious of the very limited to report that I had received £X from the solicitor who time we have had to consider the matter—and the even instructed me in that case for Y hours, there would be more limited time to consider the further changes that no difficulty in establishing how much the client had he puts forward. He will have to answer when, ultimately, paid me. we come to point where we will have to approve the For those reasons, if this case were taking place in rules or the code, and it seems to me that at that stage, three days’ time rather than a year ago—on 3 July last the matter is as much a creature of this House as it is if year, I believe—I would be unable to comply with the we have a code of conduct under clause 6—even if it rules. Whatever law may be passed in this country, I am has a statutory nature. All I can say is that my best afraid that my professional rules would have to take advice to the Committee is that I can think of no reason precedence as a matter of conscience and I would why, if the Secretary of State is right, we should not simply not be able to observe the terms of this declaration keep clear the distinction between the financial rules that the House required. At the moment, that would that he wishes to create and the present code. If there is land me in serious difficulty with the House. That even a shadow of a doubt, the sensible thing for the would be bad enough, and it might bring my career to Secretary of State to do is to abandon this attempt to an end, although I would have to accept that cheerfully change the word “rule” to “code” and to leave it as it is because I would not be prepared to subvert my professional now, and we can sort it out later. I very strongly urge requirements of confidence to clients. However, the Bill him to do that. would also turn that into a criminal offence. I urge the Secondly, moving on to our own amendment, I note Committee, when we consider criminal offences tomorrow, that I thought I had understood, but perhaps I had to take a little time to consider the extraordinary architecture misunderstood, that the Secretary of State was going to of oppression that we would be creating for ourselves. I abandon clause 5(8). I thought it was an abandonment do accept that we appear to have created an architecture rather than a going away to rewrite the provision in of oppression for many other people in recent years— some new form. There is absolutely no doubt that once clause 5(8) comes into force, it will, as I said in my Mr. Llwyd: If I understand the rules correctly, from intervention earlier, have an immediate bearing on a tomorrow every gross payment we receive will have to whole series of questions relating to the rule changes we be recorded. The hon. and learned Gentleman knows as introduced two months ago or whenever it was, which well as I do that gross payments do not relate to the net have come in for so much criticism in the House. receipts at the end of the financial year. What is one to By way of illustration, let me turn to amendment 28. do—record the gross or estimate the net? It is grossly— I am also mindful of what was said by the right hon. perhaps I should rephrase that—terribly unfair. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) a short time ago. I must declare my interest here, Mr. Cook, as a practising Mr. Grieve: The hon. Gentleman is right. The rules member of the Bar. However, that fact may be pretty say something about that, but it is all very vague and academic because as I have not practised for 12 months, opaque. Amendments 29 and 30 would be preserved it is unlikely that I will practise again before the next under the current structure. general election—and it may well be that my appearance in court last July was the last time I will ever appear. Sir Robert Smith: Under the hon. and learned Gentleman’s professional code, what information could Mr. Jenkin: Not under this Bill. he provide to give the public an indication of any obligations he might have through his financial interests? Mr. Grieve: My hon. Friend could not be more correct. There is, I think, little danger of my appearing as an advocate, but if I tried to appear as one, there would Mr. Grieve: I have given the game away by saying that certainly be a very immediate danger of my appearing I only worked once last year, but normally I would have as a defendant. Let me explain to the Secretary of State no difficulty in giving a global figure for how much I just how flawed is the system that he proposes to earned. I could also give the number of hours worked, introduce. although heaven knows it is not as though I keep a 100 per cent. accurate record. For many cases, I am not paid by the hour, and it will require some onerous 9pm changes to the way in which I operate to introduce an We were told that the whole issue of professional egg-timer to record every moment I am earning. However, confidentiality would be dealt with under the regulations. if that is what the House requires, I will of course We were to say not only how much we earned and when comply, but I will not identify my clients and how much we earned it, but normally to provide a statement of they have paid me. That applies not only to me—it will who paid us. It was also said, however, that special apply to any professional in a recognised profession provision would be made to respect client confidentiality with a duty of confidentiality. For that matter, it may in respect of the professions. Unfortunately, in their well extend outside. practical application, these rules will not do that. The difficulty arises because we do not work full time. The requirement for me as a barrister is to say that I I am sure that the intention behind the drafting of the received £X from a solicitor for advising a client and a regulations was that nobody should be able to disentangle court appearance and that I carried out Y number of what money came from whom. However, for most hon. hours’ work. The problem is that I did only one case in Members, the likelihood is that the amount of work July last year. It was quite widely reported and it that they do is so limited that it would be exposed by the concerned the definition of the word “garden” in the new system. We have landed ourselves with a monumental Forestry Act 1967—a very interesting and rather esoteric problem for a benefit that I fail to understand. 251 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 252

Mr. Walker: If my hon. and learned Friend unwittingly Secretary of State is now having to disentangle without over-recorded or under-recorded the hours that he worked, ruffling too many feathers at No. 10 Downing street, would he be committing an offence? If so, what sanctions and that is to the extent to which, at present, we are could be visited on him? being disgracefully governed. Mr. Grieve: We will tomorrow consider the requirements Mr. Redwood: Should not Labour Members also take laid down in clause 9. I could be fined and, as a this matter seriously? When Labour legislated for Electoral professional person, I might be able to pay a £5,000 Commission returns concerning political donations, that fine, but it would have catastrophic consequences for turned out to be extremely damaging to many candidates my ability to continue in professional practice. That for the deputy leadership of the party. Labour Members would be an extreme double whammy. must understand that this measure could have all sorts I am particularly concerned by clause 5(8) because it of perverse consequences for people who want to behave would put the requirements into statutory form, which honourably but find the rules very difficult. would enable the offence to bite on it. I had thought that that provision would go away and we would be left Mr. Grieve: I agree with my right hon. Friend. with only the House’s obligations and not the statutory Let me say in fairness to the Secretary of State, who obligations. As it is, this provision will be a fertile field has now returned to the Chamber, that I have detected for litigation. I am entitled to invoke the law as much as today a real willingness to listen. I think that he has a I can, and I imagine that, if the amendment were taken pretty acute awareness of the areas of the Bill that are to its logical conclusion, it could end up in the European wanting. It can also be said—although I realise that this Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. In that event, does not apply to one or two Members—that we have a my argument would be that its impact on my ability to common purpose in trying to establish an allowances earn a living—quite apart from the duties of confidentiality and payments system that will bring the House out of and privacy law—caused it to breach articles in the disrepute. European convention on human rights. We are creating We had every incentive—all of us together—to make a labyrinth for ourselves. the Bill a success, which is why it pains me so much The Secretary of State is temporarily absent, but I when I see where we are starting to go so catastrophically forgive him that. I am sure that he has a good reason for off the rails, with consequences for every Member. That disappearing behind the Speaker’s Chair. I believe that will first of all do us damage, but it will also damage our it is for the reasons that I have given that he showed a reputation for competence. slight hesitation as he approached the Dispatch Box to try to disentangle the impacts of clause 5. Amendments 29 Mr. Jenkin: Before my hon. and learned Friend sits and 30 deal with clause 5(10), which states: down, will he give us some advice about amendment 74? It states: “The rules must prohibit a member from… by any specified means, advocating or initiating any cause or matter on behalf of “The IPSA must prepare a code to be observed by members of any person in consideration of any specified payment or benefit the House of Commons, the content of which is provision made in kind”. by virtue of subsections (7), (8) and (10).” I interpret that as a preliminary for the offence of paid Does that mean that the content of this code is limited to advocacy that appears in clause 9. What is bizarre, “provision made by virtue of subsections (7), (8) and (10)”, however, is that, according to my understanding, although or could the code go wider than those provisions, as a payment must be “specified”—I suppose we see that these are terms of art and there is considerable flexibility in the rules—a benefit in kind is not subject to qualification in the interpretation? by the word “specified”. On the face of it, we are putting in statute a requirement that any benefit in 9.15 pm kind, irrespective of the rules that we are enacting, be Mr. Grieve: I am sure my hon. Friend will agree with prohibited. me that we will want to listen to what the Secretary of The regulations show that there is a real problem with State says. I am prepared to be talked out of my benefits in kind. Those who drew up the regulations anxieties on this, but I have to say that I can see how experienced great difficulty in deciding what constituted that problem could arise. I think there are clear advantages a benefit in kind and what constituted a gift. If I deliver in keeping the distinction between “rules” and “code” a speech—as I did recently—to, for example, a Conservative until such time as this House is completely satisfied that association or indeed a rotary club, and if at the end of it wants to create some unified structure. the evening someone gives me a bottle of claret, is that a gift or is it a benefit in kind? It is clear to anyone who Mr. Cash: I certainly agree with my hon. and learned reads the regulations that those who drew them up were Friend about the distinction between rules and codes. not at all sure into which category such things should Having got that out of the way, does he also accept that fall. As a consequence, if thereafter we come to the there is a problem in there being the majority that there House and try to advocate anything that might be to the is in this House? A lot of matters may well therefore advantage or otherwise of a particular organisation, we need to be resolved in the House of Lords, but whereas shall be committing a criminal offence carrying a fine of I entirely agree that this Bill has in its essence and £5,000. principle a good objective—which I have advocated for All this strikes me as a complete fantasy world. I am a very long time—as many of the areas it addresses are afraid that the reason for that fantasy world is, yet privileges of the House of Commons, it will be nearly again, our semi-mad Prime Minister, who goes out and impossible for the House of Lords to be able to make makes statements to the public without thinking through any meaningful amendments. The privilege arrangements the consequences of his actions in an attempt to secure and the black lining will mean that they will not be able some cheap and quick public fix. That is what the to have the effect that they otherwise would have. 253 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 254

Mr. Grieve: My hon. Friend may well be right. Another The registration of interests and the declaration of point arises from an amendment that he has tabled. It interests are two separate activities. My amendment relates to the European convention on human rights. So seeks to remove subsection (8), which deals with the long as this House has kept its principles simple, it has declaration of interests. succeeded in escaping outside jurisdictions—for very The registration of interests is dealt with in subsection (7); good reasons, I think—but if this House starts to create I have no difficulty with that and with the fact that one criminal offences for its Members, which we are doing, must register specified information in a register maintained that will clearly become much more difficult. Also, by IPSA. My amendment would remove the requirement when we come to consider this matter tomorrow, I for IPSA to include rules relating to the declaration of strongly recommend that the House should pause before interests in relation to its financial registration rules—or creating criminal offences which, in fact, pertain to the code of conduct, as it has been rebranded. Later on regulatory breaches of its own rules. That too is likely in the Bill, clause 9 recognises a distinction between to create very serious problems for how we run ourselves. registration and declaration, and a failure to register is made an offence, whereas a failure to declare is not. The Mr. Cash: My hon. and learned Friend touches on an rationale for that distinction is that whereas registration extremely important question, relating to the application is part of a Member’s wider accountability to our in this context of the principles applying in the Duncan constituents and the public at large, declarations arise Sandys and Damian Green cases, but we will come to in the context of proceedings in the House, for example that tomorrow, will we not? in the course of a debate or in a Committee. Therefore, proceedings in the House should not be governed by Mr. Grieve: Yes, we will, but I want to conclude now. statute law, but should be dealt with by the House itself. Our amendment 73 simply specifies that Ministers should be obliged to supply their hours of work and the Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): Is the right hon. hourly rate of pay for what they have been doing. I Gentleman aware that this House legislated in the Scotland cannot think of a reason why they should not do so if Act 1998 for people to face criminal sanction for non- we are being put to this burden. Ministers may be declaration in the Scottish Parliament? Given that this Members of this House, but ultimately the work they House believed at that time that such rules should be do as Ministers is distinct from other aspects of their applied to another legislature in the UK, why should work. I cannot think of a reason why they should not this House not be held to the same standard? realise now the onerous burden that is being placed on Sir George Young: Were my amendment to be successful, everybody else. I would quite understand it if the hon. Gentleman felt obliged to table a consequential amendment to deal Sir Stuart Bell: I have been listening all night long to with the provisions to which he has just referred. My this very interesting debate, which mixed up Sir Christopher view is that it is for this House to decide the circumstances Kelly, the new rules coming in tomorrow and this Bill. I in which Members should declare an interest and to should add at the outset that the purpose of amendment 16, decide what to do if they do not. I, thus, believe that the which stands in my name and that of the right hon. amendment should be accepted and the rules relating to Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young), the declaration of interests should continue to be made is simply to add the Speaker to the list of those persons by the House itself. who should be consulted. I do not think there is any particular problem in that. I just wish to say a word about the Government amendments, which rebrand the rules relating to financial I have risen to speak about Government amendment 74, interests as a code of conduct. It is not at all clear to me however. I understood what the Justice Secretary said, why what yesterday was a rule about a financial interest because we did have some concerns about the original must today be a code of conduct. That is certainly not a clause 6, which he graciously withdrew yesterday. The consequential amendment flowing from the removal of clause seemed to undermine the concept of privilege clause 6; it does not follow at all that because that code and place its determination in the courts by referring to of conduct has been removed another part of the Bill “the Nolan principles” and “such other matters”. Those has to be rebranded as a code of conduct. I think that who examined this matter felt that that would have this has happened merely so that the Prime Minister can opened up the privilege question and taken us into the fulfil his pledge to introduce a statutory code. If the courts. The concern is that Government amendment 74 Government amendments are accepted, there will be might have the same result. two codes. One will be a statutory code covering financial The Justice Secretary made a pertinent point when he matters and the other will be maintained by the House said that the old clause 6 meant that the House of and will cover everything else. That is a recipe for Commons was to continue to have a code of conduct confusion, and it is totally unnecessary. whereas now the new body, IPSA, would propose the Finally, I should add that many of us voted against code and, thus, not put the House and its privileges the programme motion yesterday because we were worried within the determination of the courts. I should like to that there would not be enough time to discuss matters, draw that principle to his attention and he might wish and it looks as though that prophecy is about to be to reconfirm it when he responds to the debate. fulfilled.

Sir George Young: I should like to speak to amendment 7, Sir Patrick Cormack: I entirely agree with what my which stands in my name. It relates to clause 5(8), which right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire the Secretary of State was good enough to refer to in his (Sir George Young) has just said—and, indeed, with remarks, as was my hon. and learned Friend the Member everything that he said in his brief but, I felt, totally for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve). persuasive speech. 255 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 256

[Sir Patrick Cormack] Mr. Straw: I am very happy to acknowledge that. I regard myself—whether others do is a matter for them—as I feel very sorry for the Secretary of State. He is someone who takes his constituency responsibilities trying to be his master’s voice and he is clearly finding it very seriously. However, it happens that I have been on extremely uncomfortable. His performance at the Dispatch the Front Bench in one capacity or another since Box at the beginning of this debate was one of total November 1980, which is some time ago. When I was in sincerity but utter discomfort—[Interruption.] Yes, it opposition, I used to earn a significant sum from writing, was. It could be seen in the way in which he responded which I used to subsidise my office—[HON.MEMBERS: to my plea for clarity. I would commend to him the “How much?”] I cannot remember now. It is also true letters of Lord Chesterfield to his son, which are perhaps that for the past 12 years I have had a second job, as a the best commentary on manners in the 18th century. Minister. I hope that that helps. The boy was going off on the grand tour, and his father Sir Patrick Cormack: I am grateful again to the right warned him of the pitfalls of frequenting houses of hon. Gentleman, and perhaps we can have a hat trick. ill-fame. He said, “Be careful of your money. Remember, He has accepted the amendment moved by my right the pleasure is momentary, the position is ridiculous hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire and the expense is damnable.” Tonight, the right hon. and acknowledged that it is both valid and honourable Gentleman is a classic illustration of that. He adopted a for hon. Members to have outside earnings. For the hat ridiculous position, the pleasure of doing so is certain trick, if we are to have this provision on outside earnings, to be momentary and the cost to this House is damnable. will he now acknowledge that Ministers should also I think that the Secretary of State should think again, declare? Ministers have to deal with their ministerial and if he has not read Lord Chesterfield there is a treat portfolios, and they travel the country or to other in store for him— countries doing all sorts of perfectly right, proper and appropriate things—well or badly, but doing them Angus Robertson: It sounds more like “Flashman”. nevertheless—but they are not able to perform their constituency or ordinary parliamentary duties at the Sir Patrick Cormack: It is far better. same time. I ask the Secretary of State: what is the difference To paraphrase what the Justice Secretary said yesterday, between a code and a rule? If, as he seemed to imply—at let what is sauce for the goose be also sauce for the least, that was what I inferred from what he said—there ministerial gander. is not a difference, then why persist with it? The other, and far more important point, which my 9.30 pm right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire Mr. Straw: I am afraid that I cannot give the hon. raised in his amendment, is that clause 5(8) should be Gentleman comfort on that, as the distinction is that it deleted. It really should. is a fundamental part of our constitution that people may be Ministers. Our diaries are pretty public, and I Mr. Straw: I said that I would listen to the debate, can answer the question about whether I was able to do and I have, and I am persuaded that it is right to my constituency work when I was abroad with the withdraw clause 5(8). I add two caveats. The amendment following example. The Foreign Office record shows is to clause 5(8). It follows, as night follows day, that that on one occasion—and much to her surprise—I had clause 5(9) will have to be withdrawn, but I am not sure to phone the chairperson of my local primary care trust that we can do it tonight, because there is no amendment. from an armoured vehicle on the way to Ramallah. We can sort that out in due course. Let me say to the Sir Patrick Cormack: I am sure that she was thrilled. Committee, for the avoidance of doubt, that it might be If we cannot have sauce for goose and gander in that necessary to bring forward some consequential respect, then let us have it in the other—since Ministers amendments—although I doubt it. If it is, I promise do not have to declare their hours, let it be the same for that I will consult the usual people, including the right others. In that way we will all be on all fours. We are hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George answerable to our individual constituents, and we must Young). I hope that that reassures the Committee. satisfy them that we do a decent job in Parliament and the country. I never work less than 60 hours a week, and Sir Patrick Cormack: I am extremely grateful, and I I break the working time directive every week of the am sure that my right hon. Friend the Member for parliamentary year. If, while we do that, we write the North-West Hampshire is grateful and, indeed, that the odd article or give the odd bit of advice, then God bless Committee is grateful. Can we now build on that, and us all. Let us move forward in an atmosphere of tolerant will the Secretary of State acknowledge, in a belated and mutual admiration—as I admire the right hon. response to the point made by the right hon. Member Gentleman for what he said a few minutes ago. for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) last night and by a number of other Members of all parties, as he came close to Sir Robert Smith: We have only 29 minutes left, but I doing when he gave us the little timetable of hours that hope that we will be able to reach other clauses— there is nothing disreputable about Members’ having Mr. Shailesh Vara (North-West Cambridgeshire) (Con): outside interests? Will he acknowledge that it is quite We will not get any further because we will have Divisions. right and proper that they should? It is of course proper Keep talking. that they should declare them, but in declaring them they should not be put into a ridiculous position, such Sir Robert Smith: The hon. Member for North-West as that mentioned by the right hon. Member for Rotherham Cambridgeshire (Mr. Vara) points out from the (Mr. MacShane) when he talked about the difficulty for Conservative Front Bench that there will be Divisions somebody who earns some of his money, as I do, from as well to use up the time, so I might as well speak for as writing in giving precise and specific hours. long as I like. 257 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 258

I welcome the decision to accept amendment 7. Along most cases because they have been dishonourable or with removing clause 6, that will help to create the evil, but simply as a result of the pressures on time. It is distinction between Parliament and the courts. Most of monstrous that the Government have proposed this the many Government amendments changing “rules” complex web of requirements to impose on us. to “code” are cosmetic, but that change is acceptable if Failure to record interests accurately will render us all it helps to remove clause 6. liable to criminal prosecution. It is important that we Amendment 73 should be supported by the Government, put it on record that there should be right hon. and hon. as the idea of the register is to show the conflicts that Members who have other interests. It is extremely important Members have and how they use their time. That principle for Labour Members for, if they do not have other should apply to Ministers as much as it does to anyone interests, they will be unemployed after the next general else. One of the roles of this House is to hold the election. Government to account, so ministerial interests must be This House, as some commentators have noted, does in conflict with that role at times. People should be able not have enough people with business experience to to judge the roles that Ministers play, and the time that inform debates in this place. It is left to those with they are able to put into their work. experience in the other place to amend legislation that is I have quite a lot of sympathy with amendment 28 pushed through here by people who do not have experience. and the concerns about professional confidentiality, but I have checked with the House of Commons Library I worry about whether it would have the effect that and, as matters stand, 7 per cent. of Labour Members contracts could be drawn so that the word “confidentiality” have business experience and 38 per cent. of Conservative could take on a wider meaning. If it can be restricted to Members do. It is an indictment of Parliament that so professional understandings that already exist, I think few people have business experience. Therefore, I encourage that amendment 28 could be acceptable. all hon. Members to have outside interests. It adds to the value of debates in the House. Mr. Gerald Howarth: I rise to support amendment I conclude by reminding the Committee of a remark 73, which is excellent, and I also agree with everything made by the Bishop of Durham in another place. He that my hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire said during debates on constitutional reform: (Sir Patrick Cormack) said. He was absolutely right “it looks as though constitutional change has been done on a that what is sauce for the goose should be sauce for the wing and a prayer. We on these Benches are very happy to supply Government gander. However, with the economy in the prayer, but we want to be assured of the quality of the meltdown and our armed forces engaged in a battle in wing.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 11 June 2009; Vol. 711, Afghanistan, it is astonishing that this House should c. 767.] spend so much time on this matter. It is true that there is What the Justice Secretary’s action tonight has demonstrated public concern about expenses and that we had to is that the wing is not qualified and is indeed plummeting address that, but the Government have come forward to earth rapidly. with a completely irrelevant issue relating to Members’ interests. There is no clamour for the complex proposals Mr. Jenkin: I endorse much of what my hon. Friend that they have introduced save among the ardent socialists the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) said about on his own Benches, and there are not too many of amendment 73, and what my hon. Friend the Member them. for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack) said. Let This provision bears all the hallmarks of a nasty, me set out the strongest case for Ministers being brought petty and partisan attempt by the Prime Minister to into the scope of the rules on declarations. Just imagine stoke up hostility towards some on the Conservative what the inclusion of Ministers would show. If the right Benches, although it will have the added advantage of hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) were now the dragging in some of his right hon. and Blairite Friends Foreign Secretary, it would probably show that he spent whose services clearly are valued by a number of 80 or 90 per cent. of his working time being Foreign corporations and individuals out there in the public Secretary. I do not know how many hours he spends sector. I look at the right hon. Member for East Kilbride, being Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice; Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr. Ingram), a good I would submit that that must account for 70 or 75 per friend of mine. I am so glad that he has been properly cent. of his working time. That would seem to be a remunerated for his great talents and skills. If this were reasonable proportion of his time to spend on ministerial not an attempt to stoke up hostility, the Government office. For that, he is justifiably rewarded with extra would have accepted the case for bringing Ministers salary as a Cabinet Minister. I appreciate that he does within the scope of the Bill. If the Prime Minister were not draw the Lord Chancellor’s salary. The inclusion of not minded to be so venomous about it, logic would Ministers in the rules on declaration would, at a stroke, demand that Ministers should be brought into its scope. legitimate the view that other Members of Parliament They spend infinitely more time than most of us who without ministerial office would be perfectly justified in have outside interests on doing things other than looking taking outside employment for a number of hours for a after their constituents. There is therefore no justification degree of extra remuneration. for excluding Ministers. I did not think that the Justice The failure to include Ministers in the rules on declaration Secretary’s little example supported his case. seems deliberately to suggest that being a Minister is This draconian measure will impose enormous added legitimate, but having a different outside interest, even if burdens on right hon. and hon. Members. We will be it is for the public good, is not legitimate. An invidious required to fill in some sort of time sheet, rather like atmosphere has been created on the subject of outside lawyers, totting up how much time we spend on other interests. That was obviously political, and had absolutely interests. We have already seen how Members have nothing to do with the exposure of the expenses of right fallen foul of the requirement to register interests, not in hon. and hon. Members by The Daily Telegraph and the 259 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 260

[Mr. Jenkin] so that one goes into the code. The principle of objectivity requires us to make choices for public office on merit. I Freedom of Information Act 2000. It was a purely wonder whether that could be squeezed in somehow. vindictive and political act for the Prime Minister to The principle of accountability certainly applies. People bring that extra resolution before the House. It was in public office should done to create that political atmosphere. “submit themselves to whatever scrutiny is appropriate to their In parenthesis and perhaps not entirely relevantly, I office.” might add that it has always struck me as slightly odd I am sure IPSA will do that. that a Member of Parliament resigns by accepting an office of profit under the Crown. I have never understood why being a Minister does not count as having an office 9.45 pm of profit under the Crown. If we are to go on According to the principle of openness, we should be professionalising the House of Commons, as my hon. open about the decisions that we take. On honesty, the Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr. Goodman) said code says that we yesterday, we should chuck the Executive out of Parliament “have a duty to declare any private interests”. altogether, on the basis that to be a Minister is to hold So a great deal of what is in the Nolan principles an office of profit under the Crown. That should disqualify overlaps dramatically with what would be a code instead Ministers from being Members of the House of Commons. of rules under the Act. The withdrawal of clause 6 does not amount to nearly such a large concession as was Mr. Straw: The truth is that being a Minister was an originally advertised by the Lord Chancellor. office. It was the case certainly until the 1920s, if not The concern raised by the learned Clerk about clause 6 later, as we were reminded last night— referred to the anxiety that Mr. Jenkin: I mentioned that. “the maintenance of such a resolution”— that is, the code— Mr. Straw: Indeed; the hon. Gentleman mentioned “and the content of what it approves would become, by virtue of that whenever anybody was appointed as a Minister, Clause 6, a matter which is justiciable by the courts.” there was automatically a by-election. That would be a By virtue of being included in the Act, instead of being bit risky these days. I can think of many reasons for not made by resolution of the House, the code would, by having such a system. I understand the strong feelings definition, be justiciable. The code relating to financial about what is in paragraph 24 of the new arrangements matters in the Bill will be justiciable by the courts. If it that come into force tomorrow, but those arrangements does not conform with the recommendations of the are not directly germane to the Bill, which simply Committee on Standards in Public Life or with the provides a framework, particularly given that we will rules, it would, by definition, be justiciable. withdraw clause 5(8). I still do not see how the Lord Chancellor has dealt with paragraph 9 of the learned Clerk’s memorandum. Mr. Jenkin: It would, of course, be churlish of me not Paragraph 9 states: to acknowledge that the right hon. Gentleman has agreed to withdraw subsection (8). That is the subject “It is not clear why this clause is in the Bill.” that I want to move on to next. The withdrawing of It is not at all clear why we should have to substitute parts of the Bill should amount to substantial concessions, “code” for “rules” unless, as we heard, it is purely to but although we were initially delighted by what he satisfy the impulsive outburst of the Prime Minister, announced about clause 6, we were not aware that while who wanted to be able to tell the public, to appease the he was making that dramatic concession, other amendments press and to ingratiate himself with the press, that there were being tabled that seemed to undo his concession. I would be a statutory code to which MPs would be appreciate that there has been progress, but we have subject. taken 10 steps forward and nine steps back. If I may, I Clause 6 may be withdrawn, but clause 10 is still in shall spend a few moments explaining why I think that. the Bill. That is the problem that gives rise to the My hon. and learned Friend the Member for anxiety about a chilling effect on the freedom of speech Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) accepted my comment that in Parliament. The inclusion of the code undoes whatever the new subsections (1) and (2) to clause 5, introduced good the withdrawal of clause 6 does, and the Bill by amendment 74, leave some ambiguity as to whether remains as unsatisfactory and as dangerous to the interests the code is confined purely to the issue of expenses and of our constituents as ever. declarations, or whether it might go wider. I have since studied the Nolan principles of selflessness, integrity, Mr. Paul Goodman: Clearly, as I said yesterday, Members objectivity, accountability, openness, honesty and leadership. of the House are either elected representatives who are It is not difficult to connect every single one of those free to earn outside, or professional politicians who are principles with the declaration of financial interests. not. It is with that thought that I shall address the For example, the text on selflessness states: clause and the amendments. As some hon. Members “Holders of public office should take decisions solely in terms know, I have become convinced over a period that, of the public interest. They should not do so in order to gain unfortunately, the House is heading in the direction of financial or other material benefits for themselves”, professional politics. That, for better or for worse, is so that one goes in. The principle of integrity states: why I have decided not to stand again. I confess that “Holders of public office should not place themselves under when I made my decision, pessimist though I sometimes any financial or other obligation to outside individuals or am, even I could not conceive of a clause as poor as organisations”, clause 5. 261 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 262

Let me explain my reasoning. First, the Secretary of completely openly. I understand why the Leader of the State has said consistently, throughout the proceedings House cannot be present, but, notably, the Justice Secretary on the Bill, that we need the Bill in order to quell public has been sent in because, with his usual combination of anxiety over expenses, but it ought to be obvious to charm and cunning, he is the only Front-Bench every Member of the House, including those who have spokesperson likely to get the Bill past unsuspecting just entered it, that the clause has nothing at all to do Government Members who, if they are still here after with expenses. It is to do with the declaration of financial the next election, will find that it bites as much on them interests. If the Secretary of State had wanted a Bill as on any other Member. concerned merely with expenses, he could have had it My closing words, however, are not to the Justice quickly yesterday and that would have been an end to it. Secretary but to my Front-Bench team. If, as may be, But no, we have to have this Bill and this clause. there is a Conservative Government after the next election, The clause places before us a series of rules that will they are going to inherit this mess, and they are going to apparently be replaced by a code. My hon. and learned have to make a fundamental decision themselves, despite Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) and all the political difficulties. The question is, are they my hon. Friend the Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) going to allow the boat to continue to drift all the way have just been through all the arguments, and it is not down to the professionalisation of politics, or are they ultimately clear whether “rules” is to be replaced by going to make a stand and allow this House to return to “code”—the most likely explanation is that the Prime what it should be—namely, a forum in which the clash Minister has promised a code and that is an end of of interests is represented and debated? If this House it—or, as my hon. Friend the Member for North Essex does not do that, there is no purpose in it being here just argued, whether the courts will be given the power at all. to rule on the clause, thereby obviating the removal from the Bill of clause 6, which was offered to us as a Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): We heard a brilliant concession yesterday. contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for Furthermore, I do not know what will replace clause 5(8), Wycombe (Mr. Goodman); I hope that he changes his if anything. Some Members may know because the mind at some point. Justice Secretary has been scurrying back and forth to On sources of outside income, we have to be absolutely speak to them. However, we do know what remains and clear that we are talking about jobs undertaken and looks likely to be punishable by the courts under clause time spent in addition to our work as Members of 9. Nevertheless, we do not even know whether what the Parliament. Clearly, a ministerial job is additional to Bill seeks to give effect to, namely the provision whereby the duties of a Member of Parliament. Committee we have to declare in detail every hour that we work chairmanship and, perhaps, the Speaker’s role can also outside this place, will stand or be replaced by whatever be seen in that light. If we are declaring the number of Sir Christopher Kelly brings forth. hours of paid work outside this place, or even inside it, it is completely illogical that we are not declaring the I thought I heard the Secretary of State say this number of hours of unpaid work outside this place, as afternoon that, if Sir Christopher comes forth in due well as inside it. Fundamentally, if we are arguing that course and says, “I do not much like any of this,” it may being a Member of Parliament is a full-time job—although all have to be replaced anyway. I thought also that I I do not make that argument—then, equally, anything heard my hon. Friend the Member for North Essex say that takes a Member of Parliament outside this place to that Sir Christopher, in conversation with him, seemed undertake other kinds of employment and use their to intimate that he was not happy with every aspect of time in other ways should be declared. If somebody is the Bill, raising the further question why it exists and working for a charity, acting as a school governor, or why the clause exists. doing anything that is not remunerated, surely those Underneath that tangled mess, which is so tangled hours should also be listed. Of course, to do so would that my description is even more tangled that it normally be considered completely nonsensical and not particularly would be, lies a simplicity. As other hon. Members have relevant. Perhaps that is why the declaration of the said, the Government are creating an atmosphere of number of hours worked or the amount of money illegitimacy around outside interests. That is the purpose received should equally be seen as nonsensical. of clauses 5 and 9, and the ceiling that has been descending Let us take a completely different view. It could well year upon year on outside interests, ever since the be argued that the fewer the number of hours a Member Nolan report and probably further back, is being ratcheted of Parliament spends fulfilling his or her duties, provided down under this Bill. It is essentially unjust, because the that he or she is efficient, the better. That is a good sign. one group of people who will not have to declare how If a Member of this House can achieve in three hours a much time they spend working on business other than day what other Members, or other people, might achieve those of their constituents are, of course, Ministers. If in eight hours a day, is that not something to be welcomed? there were any justice, they would accept the amendment Efficiency must come into play. My background is in tabled by my right hon. and hon. Friends, so that business, and I can say immediately that people in Ministers had to declare how many hours they spent business—people who are entrepreneurs, who are moonlighting outside this place—to use the language enterprising, and who are looking for a return and a that they frequently throw at us. But of course, they will benefit to their company and to the economy—will not accept it. look for the most efficient person who can achieve the Either we are to be elected representatives who are best result in the fewest number of hours. The whole free to work or, if we are to be professional politicians, drive towards the declaration of the number of hours, we will have to separate the Executive and the legislature, with the undertone that it is bad to work fewer hours and being an MP will be a full-time job. I do not expect fulfilling one’s duties as a Member of Parliament, is the Justice Secretary to address that argument fully or incorrect. 263 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 264

[Adam Afriyie] Corbyn, Jeremy Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Crausby, Mr. David Holmes, Paul Underlying several parts of the Bill is the assumption Creagh, Mary Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey that outside interests or outside earnings are a bad Cruddas, Jon Hope, Phil thing. I put it to the House that we want a variety of Cryer, Mrs. Ann Hopkins, Kelvin people here. I do not want only wealthy people to be Cummings, John Horwood, Martin Cunningham, Mr. Jim Howarth, David represented in this place—that would make it a very Cunningham, Tony Howells, rh Dr. Kim bad place to be. These changes to the rules, which insist David, Mr. Wayne Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay on each individual hour of income earned outside being Davies, Mr. Dai Hughes, rh Beverley declared, are not only unworkable but work against Davies, Mr. Quentin Hughes, Simon people from less well-off backgrounds coming into this Dean, Mrs. Janet Huhne, Chris place. We will end up with the sort of people who have Denham, rh Mr. John Humble, Mrs. Joan no outside interests because they have unearned income Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Hunter, Mark from elsewhere, have made a fortune in the past, or Dismore, Mr. Andrew Iddon, Dr. Brian come from wealthy families, or the sort of people who Dobbin, Jim Illsley, Mr. Eric have been permanent professional politicians. I am not Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Ingram, rh Mr. Adam sure that that is good for the nation or for our constituents. Doran, Mr. Frank Irranca-Davies, Huw Drew, Mr. David James, Mrs. Siân C. I hope that the Government change their mind on Durkan, Mark Jenkins, Mr. Brian several clauses, and that the Bill achieves what we would Eagle, Angela Johnson, rh Alan all like it to achieve—the independent administration of Eagle, Maria Johnson, Ms Diana R. expenses, allowances and, potentially, salaries. I think Efford, Clive Jones, Lynne that that is readily acceptable. Ellman, Mrs. Louise Jones, Mr. Martyn Mr. Straw: I have listened to the debate with great Engel, Natascha Jowell, rh Tessa Ennis, Jeff Joyce, Mr. Eric care. Let me say for the assistance of the House that Etherington, Bill Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald in addition to the Government amendments, which Farrelly, Paul Keeble, Ms Sally I commend to the House, the Government wish to Farron, Tim Keeley, Barbara accept amendments 16, 17, 7, 29 and 30. We will Featherstone, Lynne Keen, Alan separately consider amendment 28, and we are opposing Fisher, Mark Keen, Ann amendment 73. Fitzpatrick, Jim Kelly, rh Ruth Question put, That the amendment be made. Flello, Mr. Robert Kemp, Mr. Fraser The Committee divided: Ayes 340, Noes 159. Flint, rh Caroline Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Flynn, Paul Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Division No. 170] [10 pm Follett, Barbara Kidney, Mr. David AYES Foster, Mr. Don Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Foster, Mr. Michael Knight, rh Jim Abbott, Ms Diane Brennan, Kevin (Worcester) Kumar, Dr. Ashok Ainger, Nick Brooke, Annette Foster, Michael Jabez Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Brown, Lyn (Hastings and Rye) Lamb, Norman Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Francis, Dr. Hywel Lammy, rh Mr. David Allen, Mr. Graham Brown, Mr. Russell Gapes, Mike Laxton, Mr. Bob Anderson, Mr. David Browne, rh Des Gardiner, Barry Lazarowicz, Mark Armstrong, rh Hilary Browne, Mr. Jeremy George, Andrew Leech, Mr. John Atkins, Charlotte Bruce, rh Malcolm George, rh Mr. Bruce Lepper, David Austin, Mr. Ian Bryant, Chris Gerrard, Mr. Neil Levitt, Tom Austin, John Buck, Ms Karen Gidley, Sandra Lewis, Mr. Ivan Bailey, Mr. Adrian Burden, Richard Gilroy, Linda Linton, Martin Baird, Vera Burgon, Colin Godsiff, Mr. Roger Love, Mr. Andrew Baker, Norman Burnham, rh Andy Goldsworthy, Julia Lucas, Ian Balls, rh Ed Burt, Lorely Goodman, Helen Malik, Mr. Shahid Banks, Gordon Butler, Ms Dawn Griffith, Nia Mallaber, Judy Barlow, Ms Celia Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Griffiths, Nigel Mann, John Barrett, John Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Grogan, Mr. John Marris, Rob Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Cairns, David Gwynne, Andrew Marsden, Mr. Gordon Battle, rh John Campbell, Mr. Alan Hain, rh Mr. Peter Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Bayley, Hugh Campbell, Mr. Gregory Hall, Mr. Mike Martlew, Mr. Eric Beckett, rh Margaret Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hall, Patrick McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Begg, Miss Anne Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Hamilton, Mr. David McCabe, Steve Beith, rh Sir Alan Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Hancock, Mr. Mike McCarthy, Kerry Bell, Sir Stuart Caton, Mr. Martin Hanson, rh Mr. David McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Benn, rh Hilary Cawsey, Mr. Ian Harris, Mr. Tom McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Benton, Mr. Joe Chapman, Ben Berry, Roger Clapham, Mr. Michael Harvey, Nick McCrea, Dr. William Betts, Mr. Clive Clark, Paul Havard, Mr. Dai McDonagh, Siobhain Blackman, Liz Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hemming, John McDonnell, John Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Clelland, Mr. David Hepburn, Mr. Stephen McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Blears, rh Hazel Clwyd, rh Ann Heppell, Mr. John McFall, rh John Blizzard, Mr. Bob Cohen, Harry Hesford, Stephen McGrady, Mr. Eddie Blunkett, rh Mr. David Connarty, Michael Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia McIsaac, Shona Borrow, Mr. David S. Cooper, Rosie Heyes, David McKechin, Ann Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Cooper, rh Yvette Hill, rh Keith McNulty, rh Mr. Tony 265 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 266

Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Skinner, Mr. Dennis Barker, Gregory Jones, Mr. David Meale, Mr. Alan Slaughter, Mr. Andy Benyon, Mr. Richard Kawczynski, Daniel Merron, Gillian Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Beresford, Sir Paul Key, Robert Michael, rh Alun Smith, Ms Angela C. Binley, Mr. Brian Kirkbride, Miss Julie Milburn, rh Mr. Alan (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Blunt, Mr. Crispin Knight, rh Mr. Greg Miliband, rh Edward Smith, Geraldine Bone, Mr. Peter Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Miller, Andrew Smith, rh Jacqui Boswell, Mr. Tim Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Moffatt, Laura Smith, Sir Robert Brady, Mr. Graham Leigh, Mr. Edward Mole, Chris Snelgrove, Anne Brazier, Mr. Julian Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Soulsby, Sir Peter Brokenshire, James Lewis, Dr. Julian Morden, Jessica Southworth, Helen Burns, Mr. Simon Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Morgan, Julie Spellar, rh Mr. John Burrowes, Mr. David Lidington, Mr. David Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Spink, Bob Burt, Alistair Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Mudie, Mr. George Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Butterfill, Sir John Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Mulholland, Greg Stoate, Dr. Howard Carswell, Mr. Douglas Loughton, Tim Mullin, Mr. Chris Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Cash, Mr. William Luff, Peter Munn, Meg Straw, rh Mr. Jack Chope, Mr. Christopher Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Murphy, Mr. Denis Stringer, Graham Clark, Greg Main, Anne Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Stuart, Ms Gisela Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Malins, Mr. Humfrey Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Stunell, Andrew Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Maples, Mr. John Naysmith, Dr. Doug Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Cormack, Sir Patrick Mason, John Norris, Dan Swinson, Jo Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Mates, rh Mr. Michael O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Tami, Mark Crabb, Mr. Stephen Maude, rh Mr. Francis O’Hara, Mr. Edward Taylor, Ms Dari Davies, David T.C. McIntosh, Miss Anne Olner, Mr. Bill Taylor, David (Monmouth) McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Öpik, Lembit Taylor, Dr. Richard Davies, Philip Mercer, Patrick Osborne, Sandra Teather, Sarah Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Miller, Mrs. Maria Owen, Albert Thomas, Mr. Gareth Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Milton, Anne Palmer, Dr. Nick Thornberry, Emily Dorries, Nadine Moss, Mr. Malcolm Pearson, Ian Thurso, John Duncan, Alan Mundell, David Plaskitt, Mr. James Todd, Mr. Mark Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Murrison, Dr. Andrew Pope, Mr. Greg Touhig, rh Mr. Don Dunne, Mr. Philip Newmark, Mr. Brooks Pound, Stephen Trickett, Jon Ellwood, Mr. Tobias O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Prentice, Bridget Turner, Dr. Desmond Evans, Mr. Nigel Penning, Mike Prentice, Mr. Gordon Turner, Mr. Neil Evennett, Mr. David Price, Adam Primarolo, rh Dawn Twigg, Derek Fallon, Mr. Michael Prisk, Mr. Mark Prosser, Gwyn Ussher, Kitty Field, Mr. Mark Randall, Mr. John Pugh, Dr. John Vaz, rh Keith Fox, Dr. Liam Redwood, rh Mr. John Purchase, Mr. Ken Vis, Dr. Rudi Francois, Mr. Mark Robathan, Mr. Andrew Purnell, rh James Walley, Joan Fraser, Christopher Robertson, Angus Rammell, Bill Waltho, Lynda Garnier, Mr. Edward Robertson, Hugh Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Ward, Claire Gauke, Mr. David Robertson, Mr. Laurence Reed, Mr. Jamie Watson, Mr. Tom Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Rosindell, Andrew Reid, Mr. Alan Watts, Mr. Dave Goodman, Mr. Paul Ruffley, Mr. David Reid, rh John Webb, Steve Goodwill, Mr. Robert Scott, Mr. Lee Rennie, Willie Whitehead, Dr. Alan Gray, Mr. James Selous, Andrew Riordan, Mrs. Linda Wicks, rh Malcolm Grayling, Chris Shapps, Grant Robertson, John Williams, rh Mr. Alan Green, Damian Shepherd, Mr. Richard Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Williams, Mrs. Betty Greening, Justine Soames, Mr. Nicholas Rogerson, Dan Williams, Mark Grieve, Mr. Dominic Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Rooney, Mr. Terry Williams, Mr. Roger Gummer, rh Mr. John Spicer, Sir Michael Roy, Mr. Frank Willott, Jenny Hague, rh Mr. William Spring, Mr. Richard Ruane, Chris Wills, rh Mr. Michael Hammond, Mr. Philip Stanley, rh Sir John Russell, Bob Wilson, Phil Hammond, Stephen Streeter, Mr. Gary Russell, Christine Winnick, Mr. David Hands, Mr. Greg Stuart, Mr. Graham Ryan, rh Joan Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Harper, Mr. Mark Swayne, Mr. Desmond Salter, Martin Wood, Mike Hayes, Mr. John Swire, Mr. Hugo Sanders, Mr. Adrian Woolas, Mr. Phil Heald, Mr. Oliver Syms, Mr. Robert Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Wright, Mr. Anthony Heathcoat-Amory, rh Tapsell, Sir Peter Mr. David Taylor, Mr. Ian Sharma, Mr. Virendra Wright, Mr. Iain Shaw, Jonathan Hendry, Charles Timpson, Mr. Edward Wright, Dr. Tony Sheerman, Mr. Barry Hoban, Mr. Mark Tredinnick, David Younger-Ross, Richard Sheridan, Jim Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Turner, Mr. Andrew Simon, Mr. Siôn Tellers for the Ayes: Hollobone, Mr. Philip Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Simpson, Alan David Wright and Holloway, Mr. Adam Vaizey, Mr. Edward Simpson, David Helen Jones Horam, Mr. John Vara, Mr. Shailesh Hosie, Stewart Viggers, Sir Peter NOES Howarth, Mr. Gerald Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Afriyie, Adam Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Howell, John Walker, Mr. Charles Jack, rh Mr. Michael Wallace, Mr. Ben Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Jackson, Mr. Stewart Walter, Mr. Robert Amess, Mr. David Atkinson, Mr. Peter Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Waterson, Mr. Nigel 267 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 268

Watkinson, Angela Winterton, Sir Nicholas The Committee divided: Ayes 201, Noes 288. Weir, Mr. Mike Wishart, Pete Division No. 171] [10.18 pm Whittingdale, Mr. John Yeo, Mr. Tim Young, rh Sir George Williams, Hywel AYES Wilshire, Mr. David Tellers for the Noes: Afriyie, Adam Gray, Mr. James Wilson, Mr. Rob James Duddridge and Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Grayling, Chris Winterton, Ann Jeremy Wright Amess, Mr. David Green, Damian Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Greening, Justine Question accordingly agreed to. Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Grieve, Mr. Dominic Amendment 74 agreed to. Atkinson, Mr. Peter Gummer, rh Mr. John Baker, Norman Hague, rh Mr. William 10.16 pm Barker, Gregory Hammond, Mr. Philip Proceedings interrupted (Programme Order, 29 June). Barrett, John Hammond, Stephen The Chairman put forthwith the Questions necessary Beith, rh Sir Alan Hancock, Mr. Mike for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that Benyon, Mr. Richard Hands, Mr. Greg time (Programme Order, 29 June, and Standing Order Beresford, Sir Paul Harper, Mr. Mark Binley, Mr. Brian Harvey, Nick No. 83D). Blunt, Mr. Crispin Hayes, Mr. John Bone, Mr. Peter Heald, Mr. Oliver Clause 5 Boswell, Mr. Tim Heathcoat-Amory, rh Brady, Mr. Graham Mr. David MPS’ FINANCIAL INTERESTS RULES Brazier, Mr. Julian Hemming, John Amendments made: 75, page 3, line 20, leave out Brokenshire, James Hendry, Charles “rules regularly and revise them” and insert Brooke, Annette Hoban, Mr. Mark “code regularly and revise it”. Browne, Mr. Jeremy Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Amendment 76, page 3, line 21, leave out “rules” and Bruce, rh Malcolm Hollobone, Mr. Philip insert “code”.—(Mr. Blizzard.) Burns, Mr. Simon Holloway, Mr. Adam Amendment made: 16, page 3, line 21, at end insert: Burrowes, Mr. David Holmes, Paul Burt, Alistair Horam, Mr. John “( ) the Speaker of the House of Commons”.—(Sir George Burt, Lorely Horwood, Martin Young.) Butterfill, Sir John Howarth, David Mr. Patrick McLoughlin (West Derbyshire) (Con): Campbell, Mr. Gregory Howarth, Mr. Gerald On a point of order, Sir Michael— Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Howell, John Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Hughes, Simon The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means Carswell, Mr. Douglas Huhne, Chris (Sir Michael Lord): Order. We must deal with the votes Cash, Mr. William Hunter, Mark now. Chope, Mr. Christopher Jack, rh Mr. Michael Clark, Greg Jackson, Mr. Stewart Mr. McLoughlin: The Front Bench— Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Jenkin, Mr. Bernard The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. It is for the Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Jones, Mr. David occupant of the Chair to take the voices on these Cormack, Sir Patrick Kawczynski, Daniel occasions and to decide what to do. As far as I am Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles concerned, the Ayes have it. Crabb, Mr. Stephen Key, Robert Davies, David T.C. Kirkbride, Miss Julie Amendments made: 27, in clause 5, page 3, line 23, at (Monmouth) Knight, rh Mr. Greg end insert Davies, Philip Laing, Mrs. Eleanor “(ba) members of the House of Commons.”.—(Alan Duncan.) Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Amendment 2, page 3, line 25, leave out “IPSA” and Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Lamb, Norman insert “Speaker”.—(Sir George Young.) Dorries, Nadine Leech, Mr. John Amendment 77, page 3, line 25, leave out “rules” and Duncan, Alan Leigh, Mr. Edward insert “code”. Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Dunne, Mr. Philip Lewis, Dr. Julian Amendment 78, page 3, line 26, leave out subsection (6) Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian and insert Evans, Mr. Nigel Lidington, Mr. David “(6) The code (or revision) does not come into effect until it is Evennett, Mr. David Lilley, rh Mr. Peter approved by a resolution of the House of Commons.”. Fallon, Mr. Michael Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Amendment 79, page 3, line 28, leave out “rules” and Farron, Tim Loughton, Tim insert “code”.—(Mr. Watts.) Featherstone, Lynne Luff, Peter Amendment 7, page 3, line 30, leave out Field, Mr. Mark Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew subsection (8).—(Sir George Young.) Foster, Mr. Don Main, Anne Amendment 82, page 3, line 42, leave out “rules” and Fox, Dr. Liam Malins, Mr. Humfrey insert “code”.—(Mr. Straw.) Francois, Mr. Mark Maples, Mr. John Fraser, Christopher Mates, rh Mr. Michael Amendment 29, page 4, line 2, after “or”, insert Garnier, Mr. Edward Maude, rh Mr. Francis “specified”. Gauke, Mr. David McCrea, Dr. William Amendment 30, page 4, line 4, after “or”, insert George, Andrew McIntosh, Miss Anne “specified”.—(Mr. Grieve.) Gidley, Sandra McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Amendment proposed: 73, page 4, line 16, at end add Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Mercer, Patrick “(c) to payment as, and hours worked as, a Minister.”.—(Alan Goldsworthy, Julia Miller, Mrs. Maria Duncan.) Goodman, Mr. Paul Milton, Anne Question put, That the amendment be made. Goodwill, Mr. Robert Moss, Mr. Malcolm 269 Parliamentary Standards Bill30 JUNE 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 270

Mulholland, Greg Swayne, Mr. Desmond Cunningham, Mr. Jim Johnson, Ms Diana R. Mundell, David Swinson, Jo Cunningham, Tony Jones, Lynne Murrison, Dr. Andrew Swire, Mr. Hugo David, Mr. Wayne Jones, Mr. Martyn Newmark, Mr. Brooks Syms, Mr. Robert Davies, Mr. Dai Jowell, rh Tessa O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Taylor, Mr. Ian Davies, Mr. Quentin Joyce, Mr. Eric Öpik, Lembit Teather, Sarah Dean, Mrs. Janet Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Penning, Mike Thurso, John Denham, rh Mr. John Keeble, Ms Sally Price, Adam Timpson, Mr. Edward Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Keeley, Barbara Prisk, Mr. Mark Tredinnick, David Dismore, Mr. Andrew Keen, Alan Pugh, Dr. John Turner, Mr. Andrew Dobbin, Jim Kelly, rh Ruth Randall, Mr. John Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Kemp, Mr. Fraser Redwood, rh Mr. John Vaizey, Mr. Edward Doran, Mr. Frank Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Reid, Mr. Alan Vara, Mr. Shailesh Drew, Mr. David Kidney, Mr. David Rennie, Willie Viggers, Sir Peter Durkan, Mark Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Robathan, Mr. Andrew Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Eagle, Angela Knight, rh Jim Robertson, Hugh Walker, Mr. Charles Eagle, Maria Kumar, Dr. Ashok Robertson, Mr. Laurence Wallace, Mr. Ben Efford, Clive Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Rogerson, Dan Walter, Mr. Robert Ellman, Mrs. Louise Lammy, rh Mr. David Rosindell, Andrew Waterson, Mr. Nigel Engel, Natascha Laxton, Mr. Bob Ruffley, Mr. David Watkinson, Angela Ennis, Jeff Lazarowicz, Mark Russell, Bob Webb, Steve Etherington, Bill Lepper, David Sanders, Mr. Adrian Whittingdale, Mr. John Farrelly, Paul Levitt, Tom Scott, Mr. Lee Williams, Hywel Fisher, Mark Lewis, Mr. Ivan Selous, Andrew Williams, Mark Fitzpatrick, Jim Linton, Martin Shapps, Grant Williams, Mr. Roger Flello, Mr. Robert Love, Mr. Andrew Shepherd, Mr. Richard Willott, Jenny Flint, rh Caroline Lucas, Ian Simpson, David Wilshire, Mr. David Flynn, Paul Malik, Mr. Shahid Smith, Sir Robert Wilson, Mr. Rob Follett, Barbara Mallaber, Judy Soames, Mr. Nicholas Winterton, Ann Foster, Mr. Michael Mann, John Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Worcester) Marris, Rob Spicer, Sir Michael Yeo, Mr. Tim Foster, Michael Jabez Marsden, Mr. Gordon Spring, Mr. Richard Young, rh Sir George (Hastings and Rye) Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Stanley, rh Sir John Younger-Ross, Richard Francis, Dr. Hywel Martlew, Mr. Eric Streeter, Mr. Gary Tellers for the Ayes: Gapes, Mike McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Stuart, Mr. Graham James Duddridge and Gardiner, Barry McCabe, Steve Stunell, Andrew Jeremy Wright George, rh Mr. Bruce McCarthy, Kerry Gerrard, Mr. Neil McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Gilroy, Linda McCartney, rh Mr. Ian NOES Godsiff, Mr. Roger McDonagh, Siobhain Abbott, Ms Diane Brown, Lyn Goodman, Helen McDonnell, John Ainger, Nick Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Griffith, Nia McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Brown, Mr. Russell Griffiths, Nigel McFall, rh John Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Browne, rh Des Grogan, Mr. John McGrady, Mr. Eddie Allen, Mr. Graham Bryant, Chris Gwynne, Andrew McIsaac, Shona Anderson, Mr. David Buck, Ms Karen Hain, rh Mr. Peter McKechin, Ann Armstrong, rh Hilary Burden, Richard Hall, Mr. Mike McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Atkins, Charlotte Burgon, Colin Hall, Patrick Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Austin, Mr. Ian Burnham, rh Andy Hamilton, Mr. David Meale, Mr. Alan Austin, John Butler, Ms Dawn Hanson, rh Mr. David Merron, Gillian Bailey, Mr. Adrian Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Harris, Mr. Tom Michael, rh Alun Baird, Vera Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Havard, Mr. Dai Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Balls, rh Ed Cairns, David Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Miliband, rh Edward Banks, Gordon Campbell, Mr. Alan Heppell, Mr. John Miller, Andrew Barlow, Ms Celia Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Hesford, Stephen Moffatt, Laura Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Caton, Mr. Martin Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Mole, Chris Battle, rh John Cawsey, Mr. Ian Heyes, David Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Bayley, Hugh Chapman, Ben Hill, rh Keith Morden, Jessica Beckett, rh Margaret Clapham, Mr. Michael Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Morgan, Julie Begg, Miss Anne Clark, Paul Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Bell, Sir Stuart Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hope, Phil Mudie, Mr. George Benn, rh Hilary Clelland, Mr. David Hopkins, Kelvin Mullin, Mr. Chris Benton, Mr. Joe Clwyd, rh Ann Howells, rh Dr. Kim Munn, Meg Berry, Roger Cohen, Harry Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Murphy, Mr. Denis Betts, Mr. Clive Connarty, Michael Hughes, rh Beverley Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Blackman, Liz Cooper, Rosie Humble, Mrs. Joan Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Cooper, rh Yvette Iddon, Dr. Brian Naysmith, Dr. Doug Blears, rh Hazel Corbyn, Jeremy Illsley, Mr. Eric Norris, Dan Blizzard, Mr. Bob Crausby, Mr. David Ingram, rh Mr. Adam O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Blunkett, rh Mr. David Creagh, Mary Irranca-Davies, Huw O’Hara, Mr. Edward Borrow, Mr. David S. Cruddas, Jon James, Mrs. Siân C. Olner, Mr. Bill Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Cryer, Mrs. Ann Jenkins, Mr. Brian Osborne, Sandra Brennan, Kevin Cummings, John Johnson, rh Alan Owen, Albert 271 Parliamentary Standards Bill 30 JUNE 2009 272

Palmer, Dr. Nick Stoate, Dr. Howard Amendment 91, page 8, line 39, leave out ‘contained Pearson, Ian Strang, rh Dr. Gavin in rules under that section’ and insert Plaskitt, Mr. James Straw, rh Mr. Jack ‘included by virtue of section 5(10) in the MPs’ code of conduct Pope, Mr. Greg Stringer, Graham relating to financial interests’.—(Mr. Watts.) Pound, Stephen Stuart, Ms Gisela Prentice, Bridget Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Clause 13, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Prentice, Mr. Gordon Tami, Mark Bill. Primarolo, rh Dawn Taylor, Ms Dari Clause 14 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Prosser, Gwyn Taylor, David To report progress and ask leave to sit again.— Purchase, Mr. Ken Taylor, Dr. Richard (Mr. Watts.) Rammell, Bill Thomas, Mr. Gareth Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Thornberry, Emily The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. Reed, Mr. Jamie Todd, Mr. Mark Progress reported; Committee to sit again tomorrow. Reid, rh John Touhig, rh Mr. Don Riordan, Mrs. Linda Trickett, Jon Robertson, John Turner, Dr. Desmond Business without Debate Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Twigg, Derek Rooney, Mr. Terry Ussher, Kitty Roy, Mr. Frank DELEGATED LEGISLATION Vaz, rh Keith Ruane, Chris Vis, Dr. Rudi Russell, Christine Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): With the Ryan, rh Joan Walley, Joan leave of the House, we shall take motions 3 to 5 together. Waltho, Lynda Salter, Martin Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Ward, Claire Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Order No. 118(6)), Sharma, Mr. Virendra Watson, Mr. Tom Shaw, Jonathan Watts, Mr. Dave COMPANIES Sheerman, Mr. Barry Whitehead, Dr. Alan Sheridan, Jim Wicks, rh Malcolm That the draft Companies Act 2006 (Part 35) (Consequential Simon, Mr. Siôn Williams, rh Mr. Alan Amendments, Transitional Provisions and Savings) Order 2009, which was laid before this House on 14 May, be approved. Simpson, Alan Williams, Mrs. Betty Skinner, Mr. Dennis Wills, rh Mr. Michael That the draft Registrar of Companies and Applications for Slaughter, Mr. Andy Wilson, Phil Striking Off Regulations 2009, which were laid before this House on 14 May, be approved. Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Winnick, Mr. David Smith, Ms Angela C. Winterton, rh Ms Rosie FINANCIAL SERVICES AND MARKETS (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Wood, Mike Smith, Geraldine Woolas, Mr. Phil That the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Regulated Smith, rh Jacqui Wright, Mr. Anthony Activities) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2009 (S.I., 2009, No. 1389), Snelgrove, Anne dated 10 June 2009, a copy of which was laid before this House on Wright, Mr. Iain Soulsby, Sir Peter 10 June, be approved.—(Mr. Watts.) Wright, Dr. Tony Southworth, Helen Question agreed to. Spellar, rh Mr. John Tellers for the Noes: Spink, Bob Helen Jones and Starkey, Dr. Phyllis David Wright REGULATORY REFORM Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Question accordingly negatived. Order No. 18(1)), Clause 5, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. That the draft Legislative Reform (Dangerous Wild Animals) (Licensing) Order 2009, which was laid before this House on Clause 11 ordered to stand part of the Bill. 17 June, be approved.—(Mr. Watts.) Question agreed to. Clause 12

INTERPRETATION EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS Amendment made: 88, page 8, line 11, leave out Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing ‘financial interests rules’ and insert Order No. 119(11), ‘code of conduct relating to financial interests’.—(Mr. Blizzard.) ECONOMIC RECOVERY Clause 12, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. That this House takes note of European Union Documents No. 7084/09 and Addendum 1, Commission Communication for the Spring European Council on Driving European Recovery, Clause 13 and No. 10511/09 and Addenda 1 and 2, Commission Communication on European financial supervision; and endorses the Government’s POWER TO MAKE TRANSITIONAL ETC PROVISION approach to the next stages of discussions on how to restore and maintain a stable and reliable financial system.—(Mr. Watts.) Amendments made: 89, page 8, line 35, leave out ‘contained in rules under section 5(7)’ and insert Question agreed to. ‘included by virtue of section 5(7) in the MPs’ code of conduct relating to financial interests’. ADJOURNMENT (SUMMER) Amendment 90, page 8, line 37, leave out ‘contained Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing in rules under section 5(8)’ and insert Order No. 25), ‘included by virtue of section 5(8) in the MPs’ code of conduct That this House, at its rising on Tuesday 21 July 2009, do relating to financial interests’. adjourn till Monday 12 October 2009.—(Mr. Watts.) 273 30 JUNE 2009 274

The Deputy Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the Standards Board for England Question being challenged, the Division was deferred until Wednesday 1 July (Standing Order No. 41A). Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Mr. Watts.)

NOTICES OF QUESTIONS ETC DURING 10.34 pm SEPTEMBER 2009 Mr. Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater) (Con): I am Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing extremely grateful for the opportunity to debate the Order No. 22B(2)), Standards Board for England. For those hon. Members That the days appointed for the tabling and answering of who have never come across it, let me say with great written questions and for written ministerial statements under sincerity, “Lucky you!”The board is supposed to promote Standing Order No. 22B (Notices of questions etc. during September) high ethical standards for local government, but in my shall be as follows: experience it is an inefficient, expensive and woefully Tabling days unfair outfit that should be confined to the history Wednesday 2, Monday 7 and Wednesday 9 September 2009. books as quickly as possible. Answering days The Standards Board was established on a whim of Wednesday 9, Monday 14 and Wednesday 16 September 2009.— political correctness. The driving force behind it was (Mr. Watts.) that master of oratory, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott). He wanted The Deputy Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the local councillors to behave properly. That is a perfectly Question being challenged, the Division was deferred until worthy goal, but the right hon. Gentleman could be Wednesday 1 July (Standing Order No. 41A). clumsy; he loved to interfere in the natural order of things—and I suspect he still does. So instead of leaving ESTIMATES it to the common sense of voters not to elect lunatics, or Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing the common sense of the police to get involved when Order No. 145), they had to, the right hon. Gentleman decided to reinvent the wheel. It was a triumph; the wheel was completely That this House agrees with the Report [25 June] of the Liaison Committee.—(Mr. Watts.) square. That is the sad story of the birth of the Standards Board. Question agreed to. It was guaranteed to malfunction because it was designed by idiots. It has turned the act of complaining Petition about councillors into a fabulous spectator sport. Imagine Taxation (Bingo Clubs) the centre court at Wimbledon where anyone can take a pot shot. That is the system the right hon. Gentleman created: “Complaints are free; why not make one now?” 10.33 pm Several councillors from Bideford in north Devon are Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I wish to present a still under investigation because they want to scrap petition from 451 residents of Llanelli and others who prayers before meetings to save time—hallelujah! Do use Argos bingo club there. The petition we need to learn the lesson? Even in this place, where Declares that the imposition of Gross Profits Tax of 22 per one would think we would all know better, the hon. cent. on bingo clubs, compared with a gaming industry average of Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) recently 15 per cent., is unreasonable and will be damaging to the continued reported a Lib Dem councillor to the Standards Board viability of small bingo clubs, which play an important part as for the appalling act of removing a petition from a local centres of the community as well as places of entertainment. post office. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons approves a Gross Profits Tax maximum rate of 15 per cent. for Last year, there were 3,500 different complaints—one bingo clubs. for every waking hour of every single day. We are getting this wrong. If there are too many complaints, And the Petitioners remain, etc. the staff cannot handle them, which means more people [P000386] have to be hired and everything slows down. There is only one thing worse than slow justice, and that is no justice. The Standards Board offers both in heaps. It has become an overblown, bureaucratic kangaroo court. It pretends to operate like the Old Bailey, but people should not expect a fair trial, or any help in defending themselves. The Standards Board has set new standards, and they come in at gutter height. I could illustrate this argument with any number of high profile cases, but I prefer to stick to the one I know best. It concerns a former Somerset county councillor called Paul Buchanan. Adjournment debate groupies may recognise his name—I am sure the Minister does. The case of Paul Buchanan has dragged on for more than two painful years. I have raised it in this House on several occasions. Paul Buchanan was deputy leader of Somerset council’s Liberal Democrats. What happened to him speaks volumes about what is wrong with the Standards Board. 275 Standards Board for England30 JUNE 2009 Standards Board for England 276

[Mr. Ian Liddell-Grainger] That statement would stack up only if the charges against Mr. Buchanan were proved, but they were not The board was bamboozled and brow-beaten into and he was acquitted of everything serious, other than investigating Paul Buchanan, and all because of one the crime of the century of swearing under his breath. unscrupulous public official: the chief executive of Somerset We should recall what he was accused of: secretiveness, county council, Mr. Alan Jones. On 4 April 2007, Alan undermining staff, aggression, threatening behaviour, Jones composed a six-page letter of complaint about rudeness, intimidation, anger, disrespect, fraud, sexism, Paul Buchanan and sent it to the Standards Board for racism, and homophobia. He was probably accused of England. It was the work of a deliberate assassin. Paul leaving the loo seat up too. This was simply a personal Buchanan was accused of secretiveness, undermining vendetta. staff, aggression, threatening behaviour, rudeness, So why did Jones want to “get” Buchanan and what intimidation, anger, disrespect, fraud, sexism, racism, had Buchanan “got” on Jones? I am sorry if that homophobia, and abuse of his office as an elected sounds conspiratorial, but there is a big hint of conspiracy councillor; not bad for one man—he is almost unique. in all this. Mr. Buchanan knew too much. Back in 2005, There is barely concealed hatred of the man in every there was gossip about Alan Jones having an affair with sentence. Jones did not just want the Standards Board a member of staff called Jenny Hastings. Everybody at to investigate; he wanted an instant political execution. county hall knew about this—it was no secret. What He asked for then councillor Paul Buchanan to be Buchanan did not know was that when the affair came suspended there and then, but he did not get that. to an end Ms Hastings made a serious complaint of The jobsworths at the Standards Board might have sexual harassment against Alan Jones. That is, of course, been forgiven for thinking that Paul Buchanan was an a sackable offence, and rightly so. The complaint had to unstable nutcase with homicidal tendencies. In fact, the be dealt with by a confidential panel of elected members, really unstable and unsavoury character was, and is, the including the lady who led the council at the time. complainant: Somerset county council’s most senior Halfway through she was taken ill—legitimately so—and officer. However, wrongly—inexcusably—the Standards Paul Buchanan, the acting leader, took over but he was Board does not investigate complaints against officers; never told about the inquiry. It was Alan Jones who let it cannot. That is another ridiculous gaping hole in its the cat out of the bag and he came to plead with half-baked interpretation of justice. Mr. Buchanan to help, but Mr. Buchanan rightly told If anyone’s local chief executive is caught bullying Mr. Jones that he would not and could not help—big staff or paying off his mistress from public funds, the mistake. Unfortunately, Alan Jones has a long memory Standards Board will rightly say it is none of its business; and he bears grudges. it can only investigate councillors, and it was obliged, By the time the leader returned to work it was deemed because of the rules, to launch a full-blown inquiry into too dangerous to punish Jones by sacking him—that is Mr. Buchanan. Hundreds of interviews were conducted perhaps just one of those quirks. Unfortunately, Jenny and thousands of pages of transcripts were churned off Hastings was threatening an industrial tribunal, which the printers, and when it rejected Alan Jones’s first is a very public way of exposing the antics of her lover, batch of complaints, he wasted extra time querying its and the Audit Commission was due to inspect the decision. It was dealing with a deranged obsessive. The council. There is nothing like a five-star sex scandal to first investigator retired, exhausted, halfway through scupper one’s chances of an excellent four-star rating, and lawyers came and went. Heaven knows what the as they say in the best adverts. So, behind closed doors, cost is—we certainly do not. What was the result? and with the help of ACAS, a deal was signed to buy Eventually, 16 of the original complaints were chucked Ms Hastings off—that cost £140,000, which is slightly out, four others were referred to a higher court, not a less than the annual pay cheque of the chief executive. proper court, but another quango; a panel with the Some very large extra payments indeed were made, and pomp of the legal system, but—I say this in this place—none in the next couple of years millions of pounds were of the fairness. That meant even more uncertainty for spent on mysterious “staff restructuring” at Somerset Paul Buchanan. county council. The panel— with a new bench of barristers—finally I do not know the answer to this and I know that the met in Somerset, and I went along to watch this gladiatorial Minister does not either, but I wonder, and we must sport. Key witnesses were called, but few, if any, turned speculate, whether any of that money helped to buy the up—most, understandably, did not want to have anything silence of those who knew the gory details. Were they to do with it. The panel upheld one tiny charge: the given a golden goodbye when they retired? heinous charge for which Paul Buchanan should have been dragged out and hung was that he had been Paul Buchanan continued as deputy leader, taking a overheard swearing under his breath. Is that pathetic or particular interest in the projects that were close to the was it the crime of the century? I shall let you decide chief executive’s heart, but Mr. Buchanan is no fool. He that one, Mr. Deputy Speaker. was apt to ask too many difficult and complicated questions. What was really behind all this? Why on earth did a The Minister will know of my interest in the development chief executive who was earning £160,000 year and who of a joint venture company between Somerset county had 17,000 staff and huge responsibilities go to so much council, Avon and Somerset Police and IBM—it is well trouble to make complaints about what was seen as an known. The outfit is called Southwest One and I am ambitious councillor? Mr. Jones’s explanation to the afraid that it has made a complete hash of things in the Standards Board was beyond belief; he said that Paul county. The computer system does not work, and it Buchanan’s behaviour was cannot place orders or pay bills, let alone—and most “capable of damaging the council’s continued improvement and importantly—save money for the county. Southwest external reputation”. One is a nightmare, and is the product of Alan Jones’s Whoop-de-doo! dream of radically improving services. 277 Standards Board for England30 JUNE 2009 Standards Board for England 278

That is why the incoming Conservative On 27 March 2007, the Government provided the administration—we had great success down there— assassin with a convenient smokescreen. It was the day immediately announced a full inquiry a few weeks ago that they published a list of councils that wanted to into the whole sorry mess. They did so independently. become unitary authorities. Unfortunately for us, Somerset The Jones philosophy was “anything goes”, which explains was on the list. The Jackal reached for his weapon, fired how he was able to hire the wife of the Avon and off an e-mail and went to the Standards Board right Somerset chief constable to set the thing up in the first away. This was where things came full circle. He wrote: place. Sue Barnes, the chief constable’s wife, became the “It is an ideal time to deal with this because of the Unitary Somerset project director without a formal interview News.” and her hubby, Colin Port, is now on the board of Does that sound familiar? The Jackal was using the old Southwest One. I ask the House—is that right? adage, “It is a good day to bury bad news.” No serious Paul Buchanan was involved in assessing the merits attempt was ever made to deal with Jones—that was of the commercial bidders back in 2006. He was—let us what was meant to happen. Jones wanted to go to the remind ourselves—the deputy leader of the council, Standards Board; the Jackal pulled the trigger. How and he does know one or two things about business. He times change. is a successful businessman. There were three rivals: Capita; British Telecom, for which Mr. Jones got a I am sure that many hon. Members will have read the consultancy in Somerset; and IBM. With millions at letter from the Jackal that was sent to the relevant stake, such companies spend fortunes polishing their Minister some time ago. It is required reading. It is from bids. Guess what? They twitch if anybody speaks out of a Lib Dem, in his own words. He said of the Standards turn. I am sure that we have all had experience of that. Board: “There is no evidence that any of these boards have had any On 12 February 2007, Sue Barnes went to London effect in improving behavioural standards. There is some evidence with Paul Buchanan to meet IBM. My sources in the that they have encouraged people to make malicious claims about industry told me at the time that IBM was badly rattled—it councillors.” thought that it was going to lose the bid. It had heard That is the Lib Dems’ top man, the Jackal. It is a rumours that Alan Jones had been singing the praises of miracle—the very man who specialised in malicious BT at a late-night drinking session at a conference of claims against Paul Buchanan has suddenly been converted, chief executives. I forgot to mention that “Big Al” likes falling off his ass on the road to Taunton! At last the to unwind with a glass in his hand and, dare I say it, a Jackal has seen the error of his ways, but it is too late for pretty woman, but this time he was overheard, unfortunately Paul Buchanan. The very outfit that the Jackal now for him. wants scrapped is still turning the screw. Sue Barnes and Paul Buchanan had to go and see On 13 July the high court of the Standards Board, IBM and to pour oil on troubled waters so that IBM the adjudication panel, will meet to have another go at did not walk away. Otherwise, the whole project would the allegations brought by Alan Jones. The nature of have gone belly up. I have no problem with procurement those allegations is quite extraordinary.We must remember projects—neither have the Government or the Opposition. that chief executives are immune from the Standards We all agree on that point. Within a day or two of that Board, so Mr. Buchanan decided to complain about the meeting, Jones’s attitude to Buchanan changed. He set behaviour of his chief executive to Somerset county out to destroy this man’s opportunities. council. He wrote to the county solicitor and detailed a Jones sent a letter to the leader of the council about long list of shortcomings—womanising, drunkenness, Buchanan’s behaviour and persuaded four senior councillors bullying—and he gave chapter and verse, with all the to sign it. Then, the Lib Dems called a mate—Councillor dates and places. So what does “Big Al”do? He complains Richard Kemp—from Liverpool, Mr. Jones’s home town. about the complaints, to—yes, the Standards Board! Kemp, as a Liberal, is known as the Jackal. He is deadly, and Jones went to London to give him the It is true. He says that he is being bullied because ammunition—signed statements from people in and someone has complained about him being a bully. It around his office alleging Buchanan’s “unspeakable” gets better: the Standards Board was obliged, yet again, behaviour. They were probably signed in their own to call in more lawyers, do more interviews, produce blood, too, for all I know. more transcripts and waste more time and money. I apologise to the House that I am forced to go into The House will be glad to hear that it will all come to detail to explain this yet again, but I do not understand— a head on 13 July, at the Holiday Inn in Taunton. If and I am sure that the House does not—why a chief people want to see a kangaroo court in action, there is executive should be immersing himself in the political space available and they should head down to Taunton. side of any council. That is not the job or the role of However, anyone expecting that the chief witness in this chief executives. They are meant to leave politics to the case would be none other than “Big Al” himself would politicians—and rightly so. Somerset council, with a be wrong. Mr. Cowardy Custard from county hall does weak Lib Dem leader on her way out, thought that not fancy being cross-examined, and I wonder why. He Mr. Jones could get away with anything and do what he would much prefer to avoid all questions, about basically liked. However, the Jackal came to Somerset with a anything. He has reduced a tough TV producer to tears. cunning plan. If Buchanan quit as deputy leader, promised I know, because she worked for ITV and she stopped on to shut up and to accept “mentoring”, the charges the motorway to ring me and complain. would be dropped. Mr. Buchanan rightly said, “I’m not I am afraid that Mr. Jones’ reputation is bad, but this going to play.” If he had agreed to the Jackal’s plan, he time the kangaroo court that is the panel will not be would have been accepting his own guilt. As we have asking him to attend. I think that that is appalling. In proved, he is not guilty of anything other than swearing other words, Mr. Buchanan is expected to prove that he under his breath. did not bully the chief executive without the chief 279 Standards Board for England30 JUNE 2009 Standards Board for England 280

[Mr. Ian Liddell-Grainger] The conduct regime is underpinned by the code of conduct for local authority members, enforced through executive showing up in court to give evidence, because local authority standards committees and regulated by he cannot be forced to do so. The panel might as well go the Standards Board for England. It gives a clear ethical back to the days of the ducking stool, and I think that framework for local authority members to work within we know what that feels like. A person is tied to a chair and makes clear to the electorate the standards of and lowered into a pond: if that person drowns, he or behaviour that they can expect from those whom they she is innocent; if not, he or she must be a witch and so vote into office. gets executed. Good old Somerset! In 2007 a revised model code of conduct for local What makes it doubly ridiculous is that Paul Buchanan authority members was issued, providing a yet clearer, is no longer a councillor and never wants to be one simpler and more proportionate code for members. again. And what is the worst punishment available to This code removed barriers to members being able to the panel? They can ban him from being a councillor, speak up for those whom they represent, for example on even though he is not one. This is all too much. planning and licensing issues, and has been well received The Standards Board has become a joke, and a very by the local government world. It is this code that all bad joke at that. It is about as much use as a fireproof local authorities have followed in their own codes by match or an inflatable anchor. In a dotty effort to which their members must abide. improve its awful public image, many of its powers have Late last year, my Department consulted on proposed now been handed back to local councils, and that has revisions to the code of conduct. We have received over made things much worse. 1,000 responses to the consultation, clearly indicating If Paul Buchanan were a councillor today and fresh the level of interest in this subject. We are in the process complaints were made about him by Alan Jones, then of finalising our consideration of the consultation responses, the judge and jury would be Alan Jones himself. Personally, and the Government will be making their response to I would not want to be cast away on a desert island with the consultation in due course. This same consultation Mr. Jones. I quote again from the Jackal, who said: asked for views on the possible introduction of a code “The standard of decisions that are made by council of conduct for local authority employees, and I know officers…relating to standards issues is diabolically low”. that the hon. Gentleman showed interest in this matter the last time the conduct regime was debated here, as he I shall leave it there, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as I need say has done again this evening. no more. Of course, many local authorities already have their 10.53 pm own codes of conduct, but introducing a model code, which would effectively be built into the terms and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for conditions of each local government employee, is not Communities and Local Government (Mr. Ian Austin): something to be done lightly or without extensive further This debate gives me the opportunity to discuss the consultation with the local government sector. I will not conduct regime for local authority members in general, say more on this issue because I do not wish to prejudge and the work of the Standards Board for England and the outcome of the consultation process. the Adjudication Panel for England in particular. It In May last year, the Government fulfilled their White allows me to make clear the vital roles that both bodies Paper commitment to introduce, as recommended by have in ensuring that high standards of conduct are the Committee on Standards in Public Life, a more maintained by local authority members, and it also locally based conduct regime for members and co-opted affords me the opportunity to put on record once again members of local authorities in England. Devolving this Government’s support for the conduct regime for responsibility for conduct issues to local authorities local authority members, the Standards Board for England provides them with greater ownership of the conduct and the Adjudication Panel for England. regime and local conduct issues and boosts their role in The views of the hon. Member for Bridgwater promoting and maintaining a culture of high standards (Mr. Liddell-Grainger) about the Standards Board for of behaviour in local authorities. This belief is shared England are a matter of record. Indeed, on 21 April he by the local government world. secured an Adjournment debate in which he spoke at The Standards Board for England, which until this length about the board. It is obviously a body that he point had been responsible for investigating alleged feels strongly about, as he has taken the trouble to breaches of the code of conduct, assumed its new secure another Adjournment debate to discuss it again. responsibility as the strategic regulator of local authority I want to speak about the work of the Standards standards committees, responsible for monitoring their Board for England and the Adjudication Panel for performance and issuing guidance on the conduct regime. England, but I should make it clear from the outset that The Standards Board continues to investigate the most I am not able to intervene in individual cases. It is right serious allegations of misconduct. So let us be clear that that this is so, as it guarantees the impartiality of both the regime in place accords with the recommendations the conduct regime and the investigation process. Equally, of the Committee on Standards in Public Life, including I am not going to comment on, or engage in debate its recommendation of establishing a more locally based about, any specific ongoing issue. decision-making regime for the investigation and In this country, we have naturally high standards of determination of all but the most serious of misconduct probity, accountability and objectivity. Our expectations allegations, but with the Standards Board at the centre of behaviour demand a conduct regime that is serious, of the revised regime with a new strategic, regulatory reasonable, robust and fair—fair to the public, and to role to ensure consistency of standards. If hon. Members are all in public life. That applies as much to those elected challenging this, they are challenging the recommendations to local authorities as it does to Members of this House. of the Committee on Standards in Public Life, which 281 Standards Board for England30 JUNE 2009 Standards Board for England 282 recently approached the Standards Board for England not be able to walk away from the consequences of their for advice on how a successful, robust and transparent actions simply by resigning, or losing, their seat. The conduct regime operates. Adjudication Panel has powers, including the power to The Standards Board for England continues to grow ban a person from being a local authority member in in its new role as strategic regulator. Earlier this month any local authority for up to five years, for a reason. Such it was granted powers to engage with local authorities a sanction prevents somebody from simply standing where there was a problem with how the conduct regime down and then standing elsewhere, or indeed standing is operating. The board has the ability to suspend the again in the same authority. In addition, that power gives operation of a local authority standards committee, an assurance to whoever brought the allegation that either taking on its operation itself or asking another they will see redress if the case requires it. Let us also local authority to do so, while the board works with the remember that the panel deals with serious breaches of authority to resolve any problems prior to allowing the the code. Issues such as bullying can have a real impact standards committee to begin functioning again. on people’s lives, and it is right that such behaviour If, following the investigation of alleged misconduct, should be addressed. the allegation is founded and misconduct has occurred, It is important that a member who ceases to be a it is usually the case that the standards committee of the councillor should have the opportunity to clear their local authority concerned determines how the misconduct name of a serious allegation. That is why we consider it is dealt with and what sanction to apply. Measures can important that an investigation into allegations should extend from training for the party involved or having to move to a conclusion, unless there is a good reason why make a simple apology, through to being suspended the process should cease. An essential part of investigation from office. If it is determined that the breach of the is the collection of evidence, and I would like to take conduct regime is serious, then the standards committee this opportunity to address the issue of evidence and or the Standards Board for England may refer the case the public domain. To be clear, evidence transcripts are to the Adjudication Panel for England for sanction. not in the public domain. Witnesses will have the The Adjudication Panel for England is an independent opportunity to check their transcripts, and the member judicial tribunal established by the Local Government who is the subject of the investigation will have the Act 2000 as a disciplinary body to hear and determine opportunity to see all transcripts, if they form part of references concerning the conduct of local authority the evidence bundle, in order to check for accuracy. councillors. The sanctions available to the panel include When the evidence is provided, all those concerned suspension from office or disqualification from office are reminded of their obligations under section 63 of for up to five years. The panel may also simply choose the Local Government Act 2000, which requires that to censure a councillor who has breached the code. information obtained by the Standards Board’s ethical Let me turn now the subject of investigations. Prior standards officers during an investigation is not to be to the introduction of the new regime, it was for the disclosed unless one or more specific conditions, such Standards Board for England to assess and if necessary as consent by the individuals concerned, are met. Anyone investigate the some 3,500 allegations made about the disclosing information in contravention of the Act is behaviour of councillors every year. Under the devolved guilty of an offence. At a hearing, the public are not regime, the Standards Board investigates only the most given transcripts. If they make a request, they are given serious of allegations. I realise that the process can be a summary of relevant evidence, and some of the trying for those who are subject to an allegation that information from the transcripts may be in that summary. takes some time to investigate and resolve. Investigations The summary itself will be referred to in open hearing. can become protracted for a number of reasons. Some Let us be clear that the vast majority of local authority cases are complex and require the collection of evidence members observe the high standards of behaviour that from a number of witnesses. In addition, fresh evidence the electorate rightly expect from them, but a robust may come to light during the investigative process. conduct regime is absolutely necessary to provide redress Unfortunately, we must also consider the fact that when the code of conduct is not observed. The Standards investigation can be protracted by the malicious behaviour Board for England needs to be there not just to provide of the subject or subjects of the allegation, who may regulation for the standards committees that enforce have reason to fear the outcome of the investigation. the code of conduct, but to continue to supply advice, Serious allegations merit thorough investigation, and support and training to local authority members to where the finding is that there has been a serious breach ensure that they continue to work within the conduct regime. of the code of conduct, the Adjudication Panel for Finally, we absolutely understand that investigations, England will issue the appropriate sanction. Since December and their outcomes, affect the lives of all those concerned 2008, an ethical standards officer at the Standards in them. We know that politicians trade in the currency Board for England has had the power to withdraw cases of trust, and that trust is hard to build and harder to that have been referred to the Adjudication Panel for regain. However, we are also convinced of the need for a hearing in certain specific circumstances. They might conduct regime that is robust, reasonable and proportionate, do so, for example, when the matter is revealed to be less and that provides a framework to work within, and an serious than it had first appeared. Of course, circumstances enforcement method to deal with those who are guilty may change between a matter being referred to the of misconduct. A robust, fair and transparent conduct Adjudication Panel and a hearing of the panel. For regime is vital to maintain confidence in democracy, instance, a local authority member may stand down or just as the Standards Board for England is vital to the may lose his or her seat in a local authority election. conduct regime. However, that in itself is no reason to not go ahead with Question put and agreed to. a hearing by the panel. There is a clear public interest argument to be made. 11.3 pm If a local authority member breaks the code, they should House adjourned.

1WH 30 JUNE 2009 Repossession and Mortgage Arrears 2WH

has a very long fuse. Many people who deal with Westminster Hall housing needs are worried that the problem will deteriorate badly next year and the year after. There are several Tuesday 30 June 2009 reasons for believing that, one of which is that, even if the economy were to recover in a conventional sense, we would expect interest rates to rise. The fact that we have [MR.DAVID AMESS in the Chair] historically low interest rates—at least at base rate level—is one of things that is alleviating the problem at Repossession and Mortgage Arrears the moment. That is not something on which we can continue to count. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting In addition, what seems to be happening through the be now adjourned.—(Mr. Bob Blizzard .) pre-action protocol and other interventions is that many of the problems are being damned up. Good practice 9.30 am and forbearance by the courts and mortgage lenders are Dr. Vincent Cable (Twickenham) (LD): I am glad to rightly keeping some of the problems at bay, but eventually have an opportunity to return to a subject on which I they will have to be dealt with. There will be a flood of have introduced several debates in the last few years, repossessions when the delays are worked through. The including one six months ago and an Opposition day Government’s schemes are temporary, and there is a debate a year ago. The subject is immensely important concern about what will happen when that period ends. because, of all the victims of recession and economic Some interesting and slightly worrying analysis has crisis, the people who have the greatest difficulty are been conducted by a man called Mr. Shepherdson, who those who lose not only their job, but their home, with was the former chief economist at HSBC. He believes all the consequences that has for family distress, local that, taking all those factors into account, repossessions homelessness and the availability of emergency and may well be at more than 100,000 a year by 2011. There social housing. is a worrying level of delayed reaction. It is useful to Two things have happened in the last six months that have this debate at this stage because we can flag up that merit a return to the subject. First, the Government problem in advance and be clear about whether the have introduced a wide range of measures, many of Government have thought through their emergency which we on these Benches, and indeed other hon. actions and what has to happen next. Members, called for. Citizens Advice, Shelter and other organisations acknowledged that such measures have Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): The hon. Gentleman had a positive impact. A lot has been done in the form has raised a crucial matter and he is absolutely right: it of the pre-action protocol, the income support for is timely that we consider it now because of the importance mortgage interest scheme, the mortgage protection scheme of a stitch in time. It is right to try to prevent avoidable and the homeowners mortgage support scheme. I propose repossessions—in the interest not just of individuals to review the progress of those schemes. and their families, but society as a whole. The Government From the outset, I acknowledge that many initiatives have introduced some schemes, but pre-repossession have been introduced. However, some have been more protocol is only a discretionary requirement on judges. successful that others. The mortgage protection scheme Does he agree with me and the content of early-day has not been particularly successful. I understand that motion 34 in saying that we should encourage the the latest monthly figures on that so far rather embarrassing Government to put that protocol on a statutory footing, scheme were due to appear this morning; in fact, I think so that we know it exists and judges will have to obey it? they were to be published at midnight. If I were a That will mean that we can avoid repossessions where conspiracy theorist, which I am not, I would wonder possible. why they did not appear before this debate. We shall no doubt hear how that scheme is progressing. There is a Dr. Cable: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I hope lot to report, and I hope that the Minister will be able to that I have signed his early-day motion. If I have not, I update us. will do so. He makes a good point, to which I will come The other reason for reviewing the matter after a shortly. It is true that the majority of judges seem to be period of months is to take a rain check on what is taking the matter seriously, but not all are. There are happening with underlying trends as the schemes affect many gaps in the protocol, and I will elaborate on that repossession and its consequences. In the short run, in a few moments. there is some good news in that the Council of Mortgage The other trend to which it is worth referring is the Lenders has revised downwards its estimate of the growth in negative equity. In a perverse way, that is number of people who are likely to be repossessed this helping to alleviate the problem of repossessions because, year from, I think, 75,000 to 65,000. It acknowledges as long as banks and other lenders can see that there is that that is at least partly because of the intervention of negative equity, they are less likely to repossess property Government schemes. There is also a worry that although on which they will make a loss. In the short term at such schemes are stabilising the position in the very least, market forces alleviate the problem, but negative short term, we are storing up even bigger problems for equity is a major issue that is growing. next year and the year after. Some interesting figures produced at the beginning of In periods of recession, many things happen on a last week by the credit agency Fitch estimate that currently time lag; for example, unemployment lags behind the about 10 per cent. of home buyers are in negative economy in general. Unemployment continues to rise, equity, and in some parts of the country—the midlands and the problems of repossession and arrears lag behind and city centres such as Birmingham, Manchester and unemployment, so we are dealing with something that elsewhere—the figure is probably up to 30 per cent. 3WH Repossession and Mortgage Arrears30 JUNE 2009 Repossession and Mortgage Arrears 4WH

[Dr. Cable] the figures. There are real problems in areas such as the east midlands, where my constituency is located. The That is according to a narrow measure, which does not Fitch numbers that he mentioned show that 15 per cent. take any account of sub-prime lending. A wider measure of home owners in the east midlands, and as many as that takes account of negative equity in relation to 24 per cent. in the town of Northampton, are suffering actual loans suggests that 15 per cent. of loans are in negative equity.In many such constituencies, unemployment negative equity. That is at a time when the housing is now 80 or 100 per cent. higher than it was 12 years market has not yet adjusted to the level that many ago, so there is real pain and hardship in blackspots analysts and, I think, the Government themselves consider across the country. likely: a 30 per cent. fall from the peak. On average, we are currently talking only about a 20 per cent. fall. The Dr. Cable: That is certainly true, and many of us are market suggests that it is likely that negative equity aware that unemployment levels have doubled or more could well increase in severity. When that happens, in our constituencies—albeit from a low level, but the further problems will build up. increase has been alarming. The hon. Gentleman is also The figures that I have mentioned exclude the extreme right that towns and cities in the east midlands are often problems of the sub-prime mortgage market, which we the most affected. He mentioned his constituency but have in this country as well as in the United States. I believe that Northampton, Peterborough, Derby, Analysis by organisations such as Shelter and Citizens Nottingham and Lincoln, for reasons that are not totally Advice suggests that there are probably about 750,000 clear, appear to be affected worse than other parts of sub-prime mortgages out there. Some 20 per cent. of the country. I would guess that there was a temporary the borrowers of those mortgages are seriously struggling. over-supply, and that private developers were too aggressive I was horrified to see that 40 per cent. of all sub-prime and underestimated the potential extent of a downturn borrowers resort to other forms of borrowing, such as in the market. He is right to draw attention to local credit cards, to maintain their mortgage payments. A variations. big, subterranean arrears problem is building up which Perhaps I could proceed from that point to review is not captured in the figures of the more reputable each of the elements in the Government’s intervention mainstream lenders. one by one. As I acknowledged at the outset, they have cumulatively had an impact and have generally been David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): welcomed by people who deal with homelessness and I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this the consequences of repossession. important debate. Sub-prime lenders have been particularly The pre-action protocol was something that my active in recent years in encouraging people to exercise colleagues and I specifically called for more than a year their right to buy in relation to local authority or ago. I recall asking the Prime Minister about it in the housing association property. Many hundreds of people Chamber. The Government have delivered a programme face repossession, and the irony, or even tragedy, is that that gives the courts guidance to ensure that mortgage the local authority whose house they once rented has no lenders take proper account of the circumstances of the statutory obligation to rehouse them when they are borrower. It requires lenders to look at other options, repossessed because they are considered to be intentionally involves financial advice and treats repossession as a homeless, not having exercised due caution in applying last resort. for loans that they could not afford. So far, there are some positive indications about the I agree with every word that the hon. Gentleman has operation of the programme. The majority of judges said so far. Does he believe that the Government or appear to be taking it into account. There is feedback local authorities could do more in such cases, which from a survey done by Shelter and Citizens Advice that could add up to a couple of thousand of the 100,000 more than half the mainstream lenders have adjusted cases of people losing their home that he predicts in the their lending behaviour to take account of the improved next year or so? court procedure, although, regrettably, only 20 per cent. of sub-prime loans invoke such a response. Having said Dr. Cable: The hon. Gentleman is right, and I will go those positive things about what has happened so far, it on to deal with that a little more when I speak about the is fair to acknowledge that there are serious limitations mortgage rescue scheme. The way in which the schemes with the scheme. Many of us hope that the Government are currently defined suggests that local authorities are will build on what they have already done. required under the Government rules to house only First, lenders do not respond at all in a significant those people who are homeless in a narrow sense. As he number of cases. That is particularly true in the sub-prime implies, and he is absolutely right, many councils apply area, but not exclusively so. There appears to be no homelessness rules in a restrictive way because of their provision to deal with lenders who are wilfully non- desperate shortage of housing stock. Indeed, many compliant. Some lenders take no notice whatever of people who bought their home from the council will guidance from judges. They press for repossession and now find themselves homeless, unable to live in the make no effort to help their struggling borrowers. What home that they once rented. That is a double tragedy is probably required is a fresh round of guidance from that we have all seen in our constituencies. the Government as to how to deal with non-compliant behaviour by lenders. Perhaps the Minister in his reply Mr. Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I congratulate could give us some indication as to whether there will be the hon. Gentleman on his wonderful speech, which I any follow-up action. am following closely. I am particularly grateful to him Under that general heading, there is an acknowledgment for mentioning the curse of negative equity. I want to that the pre-action protocol has exposed serious weakness highlight the fact that there are regional variations in in mortgage law in some key areas. Colleagues and 5WH Repossession and Mortgage Arrears30 JUNE 2009 Repossession and Mortgage Arrears 6WH others may wish to develop that point. There are two protected under the council’s—ultimately, the Government’s problems in particular. One is the extent to which a —definition of homelessness. What are the Government large number of borrowers are now exposed to repossession doing to make their definition of accessibility to the as a result of second charges, many of them for fairly scheme more flexible? Clearly, there have to be some trivial amounts of consumer borrowing, yet they face limits, but can they be applied more sensitively to make the loss of their home. The lack of protection in that people in real need eligible for the scheme? area is palpable. Then there is the kind of case that many of us are Mr. John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): I encountering in our constituencies in which there is congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate. default on a buy-to-let mortgage not by the resident but Does he agree that to gauge the effectiveness of initiatives by the property owner. Large-scale default is taking such as the mortgage rescue scheme, we need to ensure place in the case of buy-to-let mortgages, and many that the Government hold accurate records? The Minister tenants are being thrown out of their property at short for Housing assured me, in a written answer on 17 June, notice. The Government have given some indication that only one household in Greater Manchester had that they are preparing to legislate to provide more been ineligible for the mortgage-to-rent and shared protection. It would be useful if the Minister were to equity option, yet when I spoke to a person in Greater give some indication about how and when that is due to Manchester who is dealing with inquiries, I was assured happen. that the vast majority of people who have inquired about eligibility have been told that they are not eligible My hon. Friend the Member for South-East Cornwall for the scheme. (Mr. Breed) suggested in the context of the Banking Bill a particular formulation for a new legislative framework Dr. Cable: I understand that in April and May there to help buy-to-let tenants. Have the Government had an were discussions around the country involving about opportunity to review it, and how do they react to it as a 800 families. Such discussions are useful because they legislative proposition? provide a way of delaying and possibly heading off To summarise, the initiative has been welcome, but repossessions. None the less, of those 800, only a tiny there are severe limitations, and, of course, it has built fraction are considered eligible, such is the tight definition up a pipeline of arrears cases without necessarily solving of the rules. My hon. Friend’s experience in Greater them. Manchester is similar to that of other hon. Members around the country. That is why I am pressing the Secondly, we move on to the mess of the mortgage Minister to indicate that the Government are a little bit rescue scheme, which is probably the least successful of more open to flexibility in that area. the Government initiatives. The concept is an attractive one: enabling people to stay in their home as tenants or Thirdly, the mortgage support scheme, under which in a shared ownership arrangement. That is much preferable various lenders help in rolling up interest—in effect, to to existing rent-back arrangements in which some private defer arrears problems—gives families facing short-term landlords behave in a somewhat disreputable way towards unemployment an opportunity to ride out the recession. people who have entered informal rent-back arrangements The problem, which is reported to us by the voluntary that are not properly regulated. organisations dealing with it, is that nobody is quite sure which lenders are operating the scheme and which In theory, the Government’s scheme is attractive and are not. There is a strange kind of secrecy hanging over we should welcome it. When it was introduced, we were the scheme. There are no published data on which told that it had the potential to help some 6,000 people. mortgage lenders are co-operating and which are not. At the end of April, only two applications had been Perhaps the Minister will clarify the Government’s position approved, which I know is a source of some embarrassment. and tell us why there is no published list. Is the Minister in a position to tell us what the number is as of this morning? Numbers were supposed to have I gather that GE, which is one of the more controversial appeared today. lenders and which has not been part of the scheme, is now saying that it will be part of it, but there is nothing There are two big problems with the scheme as the in writing and no indication about when that involvement Government are currently administering it. One is extreme is to start. In addition, some of the small building complexity. All the financial advisers who have guided societies are not parties to the scheme. Why is the list people with arrears problems into it have reported that not published? Can there not be some indication about whereas a private rent-back arrangement probably takes which lenders are involved in the scheme, simply to help about a week to set up, which may be because some the various advisers in citizens advice bureaux and operators cut corners, the Government’s scheme appears other places, so that they know who is co-operating and to involve a five-month process, which is extraordinary. who is not? That would make their lives and those of It is excessively legalistic, and I wonder what the people in arrears easier, because at the moment there is Government are doing to streamline the exercise. something of a lottery and a great deal of uncertainty. The other problem area is the one that we have Fourthly, and finally, I should like to mention the already heard about from the hon. Member for North-West ISMI scheme—income support for mortgage interest— Leicestershire (David Taylor), which is that many families which everybody concerned with this business accepts are excluded by a tight definition of homelessness. I has been the most successful of the Government’s initiatives. have written to the Minister for Housing about a particularly The origins of that scheme lie in the fact that despite the bad case in my constituency of a father who has urgings over the last two decades, few people have been predominant responsibility for a daughter, but in the able or willing to obtain mortgage protection insurance messy, complex arrangements that now exist for families policies. Only 17 per cent. of all borrowers are covered that are breaking up, not full responsibility. He is not by insurance, which is why, in a period of downturn 7WH Repossession and Mortgage Arrears30 JUNE 2009 Repossession and Mortgage Arrears 8WH

[Dr. Cable] There is still an issue about how to ensure greater availability of affordable housing in the long term. such as the one we are in, large numbers of people are Yesterday, the Prime Minister, in his statement, gave an exposed. Bringing mortgage payments within the social indication that more money will be brought forward, security system provides a necessary fall-back for people stitched together from various other departmental budgets, in difficulty. There is some uncertainty about that. to increase the availability of social housing. That is Perhaps the Minister will clarify the Government’s thinking. welcome, as far as it goes. I understand that the Housing I understand that a two-year maximum is applied to the Minister is due to make a statement this week indicating scheme. We are not yet two years into the crisis, but an that councils will have greater flexibility in their housing awful lot of people in long-term unemployment will revenue accounts, to enable them to build more council find themselves in severe difficulties once the scheme houses of a traditional kind. Will the Minister confirm terminates. Do the Government have any flexibility in that that is correct? Will we have a statement about it terms of the periods of time involved? and will the Government move on the issue? Another development is taking place on which it David Taylor: Is not the prime reason why 83 per would be useful to hear the Minister’s thoughts. I cent. of people—to use the hon. Gentleman’s figure—do understand that the biggest leap forward in the housing not take out mortgage protection insurance is that they supply is now likely to happen in the form of institutional read about the widely reported cases of the difficulty private investors—pension funds and insurance funds— experienced among the 17 per cent. of people who do putting their money into private rented accommodation, take out such insurance, when trying to claim on the some of which could then be managed by local authorities insurance that they think they have, because of the or other registered social landlords, with a share of hard-line and narrow interpretation that insurance property being available for social renting, much as we companies sometimes place as barriers to legitimate have had through owner-occupier developments in the claims made when people have problems with their past. Do the Government welcome that trend? Are they mortgages? looking at the role that social landlords can play in collaborative arrangements with private developers Dr. Cable: The hon. Gentleman is quite right. An producing private rented property? Have they thought Office of Fair Trading review of payment protection through some of the legal implications? Is it part of insurance established that there was substantial overcharging Government long-term planning? in many cases, and poor consumer protection arrangements. My concluding thought is that the Government have The fact that people did not take out such policies is introduced some useful initiatives. They have undoubtedly understandable. alleviated the threat of repossession for probably thousands of people, but in many cases the problems are being If we in this country continue our preoccupation of postponed. We are building up a crisis that will probably ensuring that as many people as possible are owner- reach maturity in a year or two. I want to use this debate occupiers, perhaps we should try to ensure that in primarily to persuade the Government to think ahead future mortgage borrowers are insured through a market rather than looking back, and to consider how to deal mechanism of some kind. I was going to mention that with the problem when the crisis builds up in magnitude, later, but perhaps this is a suitable point at which to do as it surely will. so. Some interesting proposals are flying around. One is based on the Canadian model of pooled insurance—pooled Mr. David Amess (in the Chair): If no Back-Bench guarantees—and another, called the home sale guarantee Members want to speak, I call Sarah Teather. scheme, is being seriously considered. I hope that the Government are taking that matter seriously.The underlying 10 am philosophy of all those proposals is that an element of Sarah Teather (Brent, East) (LD): I presume that guarantee and insurance has to be involved in mortgages. hon. Members will stay and intervene, or the relatively The existing payment protection insurance schemes are new Minister will have to make an extremely long not working, as the hon. Member for North-West speech. Leicestershire rightly says. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for In conclusion, I shall move on from the four schemes Twickenham (Dr. Cable) on a thoughtful and helpful that the Government have introduced and look a little contribution. He has been at the forefront of raising the bit further forward and discuss how the underlying issue over a number of years, and I am sure that the problems will be addressed. Repossession is only really Minister’s predecessor recognises that that has been a problem because of the underlying lack of available extremely helpful in pressing the Government to make housing, particularly social housing. If social housing it an important priority. My hon. Friend said that his was freely available, repossession would not be the purpose was to review progress and to encourage the tragedy and disaster it currently is. Are the Government, Government to think long term, which is important. I working with the charitable bodies, doing any research acknowledge that some of their actions have been helpful, at the moment on what happens to people who become but it is vital to look ahead and not merely to think repossessed? I do not think that any of us know where about how to get through the next nine months before those people actually go, although anecdotal evidence the general election. Whatever policies are put in place suggests that most of them go into the private rented must help people in 2011 or 2012 when some of the sector, which of course presents problems of its own. problems will, unfortunately, still be working their way Many people go into the private rented sector because through the system. they can then get housing benefit, which they found I wholly agree with my hon. Friend’s analysis. The more difficult to get as owner-occupiers, but many of Council of Mortgage Lenders has downgraded its them are still in considerable difficulty. prediction of the number of repossessions, largely because 9WH Repossession and Mortgage Arrears30 JUNE 2009 Repossession and Mortgage Arrears 10WH of low interest rates, but some of the Government’s The fact that the mortgage rescue scheme has helped interventions have helped. However, we are storing up only two families so far is laughable, and I hope that the difficulties, particularly because, as he said, we have the Minister agrees that it is ridiculous to have a scheme long fuse of unemployment. I am certainly seeing that that is so tightly drawn that we ration through bureaucracy in my constituency where we were not particularly rather than the amount of money that is available to affected by the first round of redundancies in the City, help people. We must make the scheme considerably but later redundancies in the retail sector have had an more flexible. Because of the cap on the overall level of effect. During the next 12 or 18 months, that will work borrowing, councils such as Islington have made use through into other sectors, such as architecture and of the Government’s scheme, but have supplemented it building. The problems are working their way through with their own finance to ensure that people in areas the system. with high property prices are eligible. I hope that the Minister will say more about that, because in the long There has been an impact in areas with high migrant term it may not be sustainable, particularly for councils populations. Many Polish workers have gone home, and in London. that has had an impact on the rental market, which has then had an impact on those with buy-to-let mortgages. My hon. Friend spoke about the tight definition of Some of those problems are also working their way homelessness, which the hon. Member for North-West through, and it could be another 12 months before we Leicestershire (David Taylor) also mentioned. The scheme see the full extent of them. is targeted at those who would meet the council criteria of homelessness, which all MPs know leaves an enormous The hon. Member for Kettering (Mr. Hollobone) number of people in difficulties. A lone man, for example, spoke about his constituency and negative equity.Although would be outside the category, and most people would many families are in negative equity, it affects certain be classed as being intentionally homeless. The Government areas in particular. For many people, it will have no must try to make the scheme more flexible so that impact because property prices may rise again and they people do not have their hopes raised only to find, three may have no intention of moving, but if they come off a or four months into the application process, that they fixed-rate mortgage and interest rates rise, people who are not eligible. My hon. Friend the Member for Falmouth have been accustomed to switching their mortgage to and Camborne (Julia Goldsworthy) told me that a get the best deal may not be able to do so. If they are constituent had spent months on the application process, still in negative equity and interest rates continue to rise, having been told at the beginning that she would be a further wave of people may get into arrears and eligible, and stored up arrears during the process, only difficulties leading to repossession. to find at the last minute that she was not eligible for the My hon. Friend spoke about other aspects of borrowing, scheme. The problem was worse than it would have particularly on credit cards. Many people who face been had she not applied in the first place. difficulties with arrears are juggling their finances by The pre-action protocol contains most of the borrowing on credit cards. Credit card companies often interventions and criteria for which we have been arguing, shout loudest, and those who get into difficulties with but it lacks teeth. My hon. Friend the Member for their credit cards often face repossession sooner because Twickenham and the hon. Member for Castle Point they prioritise paying off their credit card instead of (Bob Spink) said that although it is welcome and helpful, dealing with their mortgage, which is more important the courts do not have the legal power to intervene and to their security because it affects their home. to enforce the protocol. If a lender defaults on anything The Government have introduced a plethora of schemes, in the protocol, the courts can do nothing. I have been many of which are welcome, but many are small and pressing the Government for some time to accept that target particular groups. Even with the CML’s downgrading mortgage law reform would be more sensible, and much in the number of repossessions, we are still likely to see of the detail could be put into guidance. Shelter has 65,000 repossessions this year, and if my hon. Friend’s been arguing that we should also reform mortgage law more gloomy predictions are correct, in a year or so to deal with tenants in buy-to-let properties. If we that number may rise again to 100,000. An enormous merely gave courts the power to intervene, many of the number of people will fall through the net of the other issues could be put into guidance; it is not necessary Government’s different schemes. The mortgage rescue to put everything into primary legislation. scheme, which I will return to, was intended to help only Mortgage law is incredibly outdated—it is mired in 6,000 people, which is a drop in the ocean of the its 18th and 19th-century common law origins—and number of people who face repossession. It has failed the Financial Services Authority is not doing enough to to help almost everyone to whom help was promised. regulate poor practice. As my hon. Friend mentioned, I agree with my hon. Friend that ISMI has been the many mortgages are not covered by the FSA. Second most successful scheme and certainly the most welcome, charge mortgages and any mortgage entered into before and its extension to an earlier stage is important for October 2004 are not regulated through the FSA. That many people who face difficulties, but it does not help applies to buy-to-let mortgages as well. those with savings of £16,000 or those who have a We also still have foreclosure on the books. That partner who is working. If two people are paying the remedy has no place in modern mortgage law and I mortgage and one is made redundant, they are not hope that the Minister agrees. It may be little used, but eligible for ISMI. The Minister may say that other the mere fact that it is still available, especially at a time schemes can help, but the patchwork of schemes help when we face many more repossessions, is a reason in small groups of people and there are enormous holes in itself for the Government to amend mortgage law. By the net through which people are falling. Many banks— dealing with that issue, they could do a great deal to perhaps 50 per cent. of lenders—are not signed up to help the people who will fall through the net in the next the mortgage support scheme. 12 months. 11WH Repossession and Mortgage Arrears30 JUNE 2009 Repossession and Mortgage Arrears 12WH

[Sarah Teather] Unfortunately, as my hon. Friend said, that has as much to do with housing supply, and particularly the I mentioned that changes in employment practice, supply of affordable housing to rent, as it does councils particularly in areas with many rented properties, affect supposedly being heartless. If, as in my constituency, people who have bought to let. As I said, I have seen 20,000 families are on the housing waiting list and there that in my constituency. Many Polish workers have gone is only the possibility of 1,000 families a year moving, home in the past two or three months, so many rented the rationing criteria will inevitably seem extremely properties have been left empty for months at a time heartless to the other 19,000 families who face the and many landlords are getting into arrears. Many of misery of not being able to get the home that they need. those people have bought the property on a buy-to-let With regard to what happens after properties are basis. They are not necessarily big developers; they may repossessed, we need to increase the supply of affordable have bought only one property, perhaps as an investment housing to rent. We were expecting an announcement for their pension fund. They are most likely to have from the Minister for Housing today—I presume that it done so through a sub-prime mortgage. It is one thing if will be made at the Local Government Association the property is empty, but if the property is then let and conference, unfortunately, rather than in the House—and the landlord is still in difficulty, the first that the tenant we hope to hear about the review of the housing revenue knows about that, unfortunately, may be when they account. However, I was disappointed that in the list of come home to find the locks changed. Bills that the Government said that they might introduce The Minister’s predecessor said that he was keen to in the Queen’s Speech later this year, no housing Bill act on that issue, but the Government have not acted on was mentioned. The much-lauded reform of the HRA, it yet. Many tenants are finding themselves in that whereby councils would be able to keep their rental difficulty and it is an urgent problem. I hope that the and sales receipts, clearly means sweet Fanny Adams Government will not delay further in acting for tenants when we look at what the Government are actually of buy-to-let properties. As I said, the most sensible way going to do. to deal with the problem would be to give the courts the I read the Prime Minister’s statement yesterday and power to intervene. They could then enforce a notice saw that the word “consult” appeared before “reform”, period at the point of repossession so that families had which filled my heart with lead, as the Government an opportunity to look for other property. It is also have been consulting on the HRA for a very long time. important that we ensure that lenders send unaddressed Surely now is the time to implement the changes that notices to the property as many times as possible to everyone has been calling on them to implement. I do raise awareness of the situation among tenants. Of not think that they can do that without putting it in course, many lenders may not be aware that the property primary legislation. Perhaps the Minister will challenge is being let. Unfortunately, people often let a property my belief and tell me that they can, and that they will do without the lender’s permission and then they get into it before the end of the summer, or at least introduce difficulty later, so what I have described has to be done that policy in the autumn, but I fear that I and all my at the stage of repossession. I hope that the Government constituents and everyone else on the waiting list—the will consider reforming mortgage law so that that happens. 1.8 million families—will be sorely disappointed.

Bob Spink: The hon. Lady makes a lot of sense and I congratulate her, the hon. Member for Twickenham 10.17 am (Dr. Cable) and the Liberal Democrat party on introducing the idea of the pre-repossession protocol and pushing it Justine Greening (Putney) (Con): I congratulate the heavily until the Government took it on. Does she think hon. Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable) on securing that the Government could do more to issue guidance this debate on an incredibly important topic. As I am to ensure that council housing departments treat people sure he is aware, the Opposition have recently held two who face repossession, or who know that they will face debates on housing to raise similar issues on the Floor repossession, with more dignity and more humanity, of the House, because we too feel that we need to put a because often they are put through the mill by council stake in the ground to ensure that the Ministers who are housing departments that do not allow them to have taking decisions think about the problems that constituents that dignity? up and down the country face daily. Whenever the country is in a recession, people have Sarah Teather: Unfortunately, an enormous number two fundamental worries. They are worried about losing of people who face homelessness, regardless of the their job and they are worried about losing their home. cause, are put through the mill by council housing That is ultimately what things boil down to. I will talk departments. I do not think that that is unique to about some of the underlying issues as to how we can people facing repossession. I am not sure that they are support the economy and support housing, but the treated any worse than someone facing eviction by their main subject of the debate is the Government schemes landlord. I see many cases in which people are basically that have been introduced and whether they are working expected to turn up at the council’s doors with their effectively. children in one arm and their suitcases in the other, and Clearly, there is a massive problem of repossessions. that is the first time that they will get any help from the Although, as we have heard, the Council of Mortgage council. They may be working to try to prevent Lenders has just revised its forecast for the number of homelessness during that period, but they have no homes that it expects to be repossessed in 2009 from assurance that they will be rehoused until they turn up 75,000 to 65,000, that is still 65,000 families throughout at the housing department’s door with all their belongings the country whom the CML feels will lose their homes in tow. by the end of the year. It is still a massive number. 13WH Repossession and Mortgage Arrears30 JUNE 2009 Repossession and Mortgage Arrears 14WH

In addition, Shelter has said that it is seeing a huge Of course, my party welcomes any measures that can rise in the number of families and people coming to talk be introduced to help families navigate their way through to Shelter about mortgage arrears. There has been a what is the most stressful experience for any family—the 250 per cent. increase in the number of queries to its prospect of losing their home. We have already heard free helpline in the past year and an 85 per cent. rise in comments about the schemes that the Government have the number of calls it receives about repossession specifically. introduced, but it is only right that I should add my When I met representatives of Shelter last week, they comments as the Opposition spokesman. raised concerns, much as the hon. Member for Twickenham Obviously, the mortgage rescue scheme has been did, about the fact that we should be very careful not to disappointing. It was announced with much fanfare in regard announcements such as the one by the Council September 2008. It is a substantial £285 million scheme, of Mortgage Lenders projecting a lower level of which aims to help 6,000 families. As the hon. Member repossessions than previously forecast as a kind of for Brent, East (Sarah Teather) said, help for 6,000 respite or message that the storm is passing. families is obviously welcome, but we are talking about One has only to read today’s papers to see that many a comparatively small proportion of those affected— commentators are raising the prospect of a “W recession”, probably less than 10 per cent. of even the reduced which makes sense in terms of repossessions in many figure for repossessions that the CML is forecasting for respects. Many of the repossessions that we have seen this year. Furthermore, 6,000 is the number who are to do not involve people who have lost their jobs and fallen be helped over two years, although the latest figures behind on their payments—we may not have reached that we have—I hope the Minister can update us—show that stage yet. The repossessions that we have seen often that just two families have been helped after four months, involve people who have taken out highly geared which is disappointing. mortgages—perhaps more than 100 per cent.—as part It is clear from the debate that if we are serious about of fixed-rate, short-term deals. When the credit crunch introducing schemes to help people stay in their homes, happened, those deals came to an end, and people were we have to understand how those schemes work and unable to find similarly good deals to keep their mortgage whether they work effectively. The mortgage rescue payments at the same level. They saw massive rises in scheme seems to involve a huge amount of bureaucracy, their mortgage payments at a time when they could which is the message that comes through whether one least afford it. talks to local authorities or, as I have, to constituents Indeed, the retail prices index of inflation was also who are looking at whether they are eligible. The message high last year, and a lot of our debates in this place were is that the process is lengthy and complicated. about the rapidly rising cost of living. On top of that, When we raised these issues in a debate a couple of the subsection of people I am talking about saw their weeks ago, it was surprising to hear that the Government mortgage payments rise and they struggled, but ultimately do not seem to keep that many statistics. Who will be failed, to find deals that were as good as those that they able to take advantage of the mortgage rescue scheme? had found a few years earlier, when lenders were still Who is in the pipeline? Where in the country are they? happy to build their mortgage books through aggressive How many people are close to being able to access the lending. As we have seen, such business models led scheme? Unless we are willing to track its performance many lenders into huge trouble and ultimately to come more meaningfully, it is difficult to find out whether it is to the British taxpayer to be bailed out. working effectively, and we end up finding out that it is We should be careful to see the problems of those not working only four months down the track, when we different groups of people as having fundamentally see that just two families have been helped. We all want separate causes. One group got good, highly geared these schemes to work, so I hope that the Minister can mortgage deals, but could not find the same deal a talk a little more about how the Government will monitor couple of years later when their short-term rate came to the mortgage rescue scheme’s effectiveness and whether an end. More worryingly perhaps, the other cohort—many they plan to review it. That would be very much appreciated. commentators, including Shelter, have flagged this The mortgage support scheme was announced in up—involves the more traditional repossessions that we December 2008, but it was not launched until April see in a recession. 2009—four or five months later. We have flagged up our As we have heard, repossessions are often a lag concerns about whether lenders that should have signed indicator, alongside unemployment. Unemployment has up to the scheme have actually done so. We need more risen dramatically, and all sorts of forecasters, including transparency on that from Ministers. As the hon. Member the OECD, expect it to continue to rise dramatically. We for Twickenham said, key lenders, including some building have only to walk down our local high streets and societies, are not signed up. That is deeply worrying. We parades of shops to see that small businesses are increasingly would like to hear from the Minister which lenders are under pressure. We hear an awful lot on the news about still not signed up and what efforts the Government are big companies shutting down with large job losses, but, making to encourage them to do so. underneath all that, a plethora of other jobs are being Hon. Members have commented on the pre-action lost every day of the week because small firms are going protocol, but I want to make some slightly different out of business. observations about how it is working. The protocol There is a worrying rise in repossessions, and we could help, but the way in which different lenders deal should be cautious not to assume that the recent with their customers is hugely variable. This has not downgrading of the forecast for this year will be the end been discussed today, but I would like to hear from the of the story. If interest rates rise again, a range of fresh Minister about the extent to which the Government are pressures—not least job losses and interest rate rises—may, looking at the role of the FSA and the “treating customers unfortunately, put more pressures on families who are fairly” regime, which, as he will be aware, has just been finding it hard to keep up their mortgage repayments. subsumed into the FSA’s general ARROW—advanced, 15WH Repossession and Mortgage Arrears30 JUNE 2009 Repossession and Mortgage Arrears 16WH

[Justine Greening] morning, Mr. Amess. I congratulate the hon. Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable) on securing this important risk-responsive operating framework—assessment of debate and thank all the hon. Members who have taken lenders. I would also like to know whether arrears are part; I shall try to respond to the points that they made. being effectively dealt with. It was a pleasure to listen to the hon. Gentleman’s I have asked parliamentary questions to find out speech and it is a privilege to be replying to someone whether the “treating customers fairly” regime was up who has won the respect of Members in all parts of the and running and to find out about the ARROW House and, much more importantly, of members of the assessments, which that regime is now part of. Is it the public. In this debate he has displayed the sure-footedness FSA’s judgment that banks are behaving fairly? The and nimble feet that we would expect from Westminster’s picture is very opaque. Does the Minister feel that there best known ballroom dancer, and the depth of knowledge should be more transparency about what the FSA is and thoughtfulness of someone who has been contributing looking at and about its views? I understand that two to the economic debate in this country for probably lenders are on the ARROW watch list following assessments more than 30 years, as a special adviser to previous by the FSA, but it is impossible to find out which two. Governments, in local government, as a senior economist The more data there are in the public domain, the better in the private sector and now, of course, as one of the able customers will be to decide whether they want to leading figures on his party’s Front Bench. transact with certain companies in the future. Most As you can imagine, Mr. Amess, in preparing for the people who get a mortgage will want to know that the debate, I wanted to see whether among the dozens of lender will be there for them not just in the good times, publications in the hon. Gentleman’s name there was when they want a good deal, but in the bad times, when anything written by him on housing. I can report that they need help. he has gone from contributing to the “Red Paper on We have also talked about the ISMI scheme. Again, Scotland” in the 1970s to the Green Book more recently, the fact that it is now available earlier is welcome, but and seems to have covered every other subject on earth there are concerns about eligibility and accessibility. in between, from “Regulating Modern Capitalism” to To conclude, the real solution to the problem of “Globalization: Rules and Standards for the World repossessions is to get the economy back up and running. Economy”. He wrote “The Role of Handicrafts Exports: In particular, I urge Ministers to support small businesses Problems and Prospects Based on Indian Experience” around Britain, because they are most vulnerable to the and even “Evaluation of the Multifibre Arrangement recession we find ourselves in. We have been urging the and negotiating options”, which sounds like a riveting Government to consider the steps they can take to help read, and which I look forward to reading if he will lend small businesses, such as reducing national insurance me a copy. Unfortunately, I have to report that I could for the smallest businesses, enabling them to defer paying not find anything on housing, but I think that we would VAT, and simplifying their capital allowances structure all agree that he has more than made up for that this so that we can reduce the small companies rate of morning in the second debate on the issue that he has corporation tax. secured this year. I am grateful to him for that because it Will the Minister take a careful look at how business gives me the chance to report on the progress that has rate rises affect small companies? If we can keep them been made. going, or help them to keep themselves going, that is the In these difficult times, as Members of all parties best way to stop repossessions, because it will keep have pointed out, families need extra support and help. people in jobs. It is when people lose their jobs that they They need a Government who are on their side, providing become most susceptible to losing their homes. help for them to stay in their homes and to avoid Given the debate that is taking place in the House repossession at every stage, from free debt advice at the today, I urge the Minister to tell us more about the moment when problems start, to free legal advice at housing announcements that we have been hearing courts throughout England on the day of the repossession about. As the hon. Member for Twickenham said, hearing. The Government have an excellent track record affordability underpins the entire issue. The reason why on preventing homelessness and have acted decisively to many people have had such huge and highly geared help households struggling with their mortgages to mortgages that now, in an economic recession, they find ensure that, wherever possible, they are able to remain it hard to continue paying is the fact that lack of in their homes. We can all imagine the horror of losing housing stock pushed up prices. There are fewer housing one’s home and the devastating impact that that must starts in Britain now than at any time since the 1920s. have, so I reassure the House, and families throughout Every year since the Government have been in office the country, that we are determined to help as much as less social housing has been built than in the past possible. I promise that we will do everything in our 18 years. That is disappointing. A range of Government power to ensure that no household demonstrating to measures is needed, and the Opposition have made the bank a willingness to pay must face the fear of proposals to ensure that starting rates of social housing repossession of the family home. will go back up. That will make sure that there is more Households must clearly talk to their lenders as soon affordable housing. Supporting housing and jobs is the as possible if they are facing financial difficulties. Since best way, in the longer term, to minimise the underlying the autumn, we have put in place a framework of risk of repossessions, whatever the economic weather. protections and universal help, as well as targeted schemes for households in different circumstances. We have enhanced 10.32 am help through the benefit system, and we have put in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for place the mortgage rescue scheme, which hon. Members Communities and Local Government (Mr. Ian Austin): It have discussed, and the innovative homeowners mortgage is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this support guarantee scheme. The legal protections for 17WH Repossession and Mortgage Arrears30 JUNE 2009 Repossession and Mortgage Arrears 18WH homeowners have been strengthened so that lenders can Even at the latest stage, when a possession case has repossess their home only as a last resort, and options reached court, repossession is not inevitable, and getting to help them stay in their home must be explored first. advice and support can help households to remain in Lenders are required to treat borrowers fairly, so people their home. We now have universal access to advice should not be afraid to talk to them as soon as they desks in courts in England, providing free, on-the-day think they are going to have difficulties making payments. legal advice and representation to people facing repossession There is free, independent advice on the help available or eviction hearings. to keep them in their home. That is markedly different from the delayed reaction in the 1990s, when lenders Justine Greening: May I take the Minister back to his were relied on to respond, without financial support earlier comments? He will be aware that the Treating and leadership from Government. Customers Fairly initiative, which was supposed to become mandatory in December, has been embedded in I want to emphasise the importance of looking at the the ARROW core supervisory assessment. That is all package of help that we are providing as a whole, to well and good, but the by-product is that we did not appreciate the positive impact that it is already having. discover in December whether lenders had complied Every repossession is a tragedy for the family, and all with the initiative. Will he give us an update? Did the figures and statistics will be no consolation to those lenders comply with that regime before it was subsumed who are affected, but it is still worth pointing out that into the core supervisory work? the current figures provided by the Council of Mortgage Lenders show that the number of repossessions in 2008 Mr. Austin: I shall provide more details later in my represents about 0.34 per cent. of all loans. That means speech. that, despite the fact that more than 1 million more households now own their own home, the numbers Even at the later stage, when cases reach court, affected are proportionately smaller than in the 1990s. repossession is not inevitable, as there is advice and The CML has already said that its forecast of 75,000 support to help households remain in their homes. repossessions this year looks pessimistic in light of People now have universal access to advice desks in Government intervention. courts throughout England, which provide free legal advice and representation to those facing repossession. In answer to the question from the hon. Member for Last year, more than 34,000 households accessed that Twickenham, the Government are working with Shelter, free advice. the National Debtline and the CML to research what Depending on their circumstances, households may happens to households post-repossession. That is part benefit from a range of schemes to reduce their monthly of a package of work agreed through the Home Finance mortgage payments to a level that they can afford. We Forum. The CML has also reduced its figure for have put support in place through the benefits system; repossessions, and that revision is a direct result of the that includes support for mortgage interest, or SMI, action we have taken, in combination with low interest payments being made to customers’ mortgage interest rates and other actions to support the economy. payments. I want to talk a little more about the universal and In January, we extended the scheme to provide even targeted help that we are providing, and the impact that greater support for home owners. We doubled the capital that is having in helping people to keep their homes. limit for loans to £200,000; we reduced the waiting The first step to avoiding repossession will be forbearance period so that households now receive help 13 weeks by the lender and the opportunity for a household after claiming benefits; and we froze the standard interest struggling with a mortgage to agree more manageable rate used to calculate the amount of SMI awardable to monthly payments. Most people who are facing difficulties customers at 6.08 per cent until December 2009. Some will be able to agree a solution with their lender. We 220,000 households benefited from SMI last year, and have put in place Financial Services Authority regulation we expect up to 10,000 extra households to benefit from of lenders, which, since 2004, requires lenders to treat further changes over the next two years. customers fairly, and to treat repossession as a last We have put in place a mortgage rescue scheme, resort. under which the local authority can step in, over two FSA regulation is supported by the new mortgage years, to support some of the most vulnerable households pre-action protocol, introduced in November 2008. That facing repossession, allowing them to remain in their sets out clear guidance to the judiciary on what steps homes. A housing association will buy an equity stake the courts expect lenders to take before bringing a claim in the property to reduce mortgage repayments to a in the courts. That ensures that lenders have discussed manageable level, or buy the property in full and rent it other alternatives with the borrower. There are early back to the household at a lower than market rent. The signs that the protocol is having a positive impact. More scheme has been available from all participating local borrowers are approaching lenders earlier to discuss authorities since 1 January 2009, following the successful options, and Ministry of Justice figures show a 42 per fast-tracked delivery of the scheme in nearly 80 authorities cent. drop in mortgage repossession claims issued in the last year. first quarter of 2009, compared with the first quarter of I reassure the hon. Member for Twickenham that he 2008. We have also provided extra funding for debt can do away with his conspiracy theories. However, he advice, including a £6 million additional investment in might want a quicker researcher. The figures were published National Debtline telephone advice, to March 2011, at 9.30 am today. They show that more than 5,000 which will help up to 70,000 people per year who are households struggling with their mortgage received free suffering from debt problems, and £10 million to Citizens advice from their local authority in the five months Advice, to March 2010, to expand face-to-face debt from January. By the end of May, more than 200 advice capacity and so help an additional 500,000 people. households had benefited under the mortgage rescue 19WH Repossession and Mortgage Arrears30 JUNE 2009 Repossession and Mortgage Arrears 20WH

[Mr. Ian Austin] repossession or eviction. For example, it could be used to clear mortgage or second-charge arrears in appropriate scheme, which stops the immediate threat of repossession cases if it prevented repossession. Financial assistance and freezes charges, and a further 295 households are at through small loans will allow money to be recycled, the assessment stage. which can help other households in the local authority We are now focusing intensively on ramping up take-up area. and accelerating processing times. We are determined to Homelessness prevention funds have played an integral ensure that help through the mortgage rescue scheme is part since 2003 in the fall of over 60 per cent. in the available to all who need it. We are listening closely to number of households being accepted as homeless. We feedback from our delivery partners, money advice also launched the homeowners mortgage support in agencies, local authorities and registered social landlords, April, to help homeowners remain in their homes if and we are responding flexibly. We have already amended they fall on difficult times. The scheme enables eligible the scheme to include second-charge loans and households borrowers to reduce their monthly interest payments to in negative equity. We will continue to keep the scheme affordable levels for up to two years to help them get under review. back on track with their finances if they suffer a temporary Dr. Cable: The Minister said a few moments ago that income shock. All lenders offering HMS will have the 200 families are now being helped under the mortgage financial backing of a Government-backed guarantee rescue scheme. Does that mean that we have gone from that will protect the lender if the customer ultimately two to 200 in a month—that 200 have been rescued—or defaults on the mortgage. that 200 are under discussion, which is very different? The hon. Member for Twickenham asked for details How many families have completed agreements under of the lenders involved in that scheme. Lenders covering which they are being rehoused? about 80 per cent. of the mortgage market are now providing enhanced support for those of their customers Mr. Austin: The important thing about the scheme is who may be facing difficulties. Lenders offering HMS to recognise that families receive help at various stages, from 21 April include the major high-street lenders and are prevented from ending up at the final point. To Lloyds banking group, which includes HBOS and Northern judge the scheme only on the numbers that come out at Rock; the Royal Bank of Scotland, which includes the other end is to undersell its importance. As I said, NatWest, the Ulster Bank and Bradford and Bingley; 200 households have benefited from action under the Cumberland building society; and the National Australia mortgage rescue scheme, which stops the immediate Bank Group, which includes Clydesdale and Yorkshire threat of repossession and freezes charges. A further banks and Standard Life. 295 households are at the assessment stage. A number of other major banks, building societies Sarah Teather: I understand what the Minister says, and specialist lenders have confirmed that they will but I hope that he remembers the example that I gave of offer their customers HMS as soon as possible. They a colleague’s constituent. The family had been all the include the Bank of Ireland, which includes Bristol and way through the system, during which time it had built West and the Post Office; GMAC Financial Services; up further arrears, but only then was told that it was not GE Money, which was referred to by the hon. Gentleman; eligible. The process of applying, which took two or and Kensington Mortgage company. All lenders offering three months, had made things worse, yet at the end of HMS will have the backing of a Government guarantee it the family was told that it was not eligible. to protect the lender if the customer ultimately Mr. Austin: As I said earlier, we are talking to all defaults. Four other high-street lenders—Barclays, HSBC, the participants in the scheme to see whether we can Nationwide and Santander—are now offering comparable accelerate it. arrangements to their customers. I hope that I have answered the hon. Gentleman’s question. I can now respond to the hon. Member for Twickenham. The number of families that have received help at the The scheme is still in its early days, but more that final stage has increased from two to six. There were 17,000 households have accessed information on HMS four completions in May, which shows that the impact since its launch. We want to see lenders offering the of the scheme is accelerating. scheme to help as many households as possible, in order to avoid repossession, and we are working with lenders Justine Greening: I am grateful to the Minister for to ensure that all households for whom HMS is the giving us those figures at long last. Does he have a most appropriate option are able to gain access to it. figure to show the split for local authorities? I presume These difficult times are affecting not only home that the data are being collated by local authorities. I owners but tenants, as was pointed out by the hon. know that many Members would be interested to know Members for Twickenham and for Brent, East. The how many of their constituents were at the various present difficulties also affect tenants renting from borrowers stages of the process. Would the Minister place that who default on the mortgage. That affects only a small information in the Library? number of households, but that does not make it any Mr. Austin: I do not have those details with me, but I less just. We have therefore taken measures to address shall check. If we can make them available, we will the problem. Civil procedure rules were changed so do so. that, from April, buy-to-let tenants get up to seven Financial help is available from local authorities, weeks’ notice, which is up from the present two weeks, if with the £20 million for the preventing repossession their landlord’s mortgage defaults. fund that was announced at the last Budget. It will We need to do more, however, to ensure that all enable local authorities to offer households small tenants are better protected, regardless of whether their loans to prevent repossession or eviction. The fund is tenancy has been authorised by the landlord’s lender, as available to anyone threatened with homelessness through is usually the case in a buy-to-let mortgage agreement. 21WH Repossession and Mortgage Arrears30 JUNE 2009 Repossession and Mortgage Arrears 22WH

Last May, we announced our intention to legislate at which received some media attention last year, as she the earliest opportunity to fill a gap in legal protection will recall. It will announce its conclusions shortly. Both for private tenants whose landlords are repossessed by she and the hon. Member for Putney (Justine Greening) ensuring that they receive adequate notice to vacate the asked about FSA regulation. I can assure them that the property, regardless of whether their tenancy has been Treasury continues to keep regulation under review. authorised by the landlord’s lender. We shall consult on our proposals over the summer with a view to legislating Sarah Teather: I am trying to help the Minister, at the next opportunity. In the meantime, we are working because he has had to make a very long speech. The closely with lenders to improve their current practices Government promised some time ago to regulate private when they find an unauthorised tenant in a property of buy-back and rent schemes and to bring them under the which they are seeking possession. Any tenant who is auspices of the FSA, but they still have not done that. concerned, or who has received notification of a court Does he have any news on when that will happen? possession hearing, should seek advice immediately. They should contact the mortgage lender taking Mr. Austin: In a rare moment of candour, I can tell repossession action and attend the hearing so that the the hon. Lady that, despite the fantastic induction into judge is aware that there is a tenant in the property. the Department given to me over the past few weeks, I The hon. Member for Brent, East asked about HRA do not have that information, but I shall find out and reform. Later today, when the Minister for Housing, my come back to her. right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth (John In conclusion, the Government are working day and Healey) announces the outcome of the review of council night to do what is required to help households through housing finance, he will also outline proposals to allow these difficult times. We need to ensure that, wherever councils to keep all the proceeds from their own council possible, families do not have to suffer the trauma and house sales, as well as their rent. upheaval of repossession. People need to be reassured that we shall do everything possible to help all households Sarah Teather: I want to clarify that point. That is at risk, so that they can benefit from the package of when the outcome of the review will be announced, but help that we have provided. We shall continue to put when will it actually be implemented? As I said, I could pressure on lenders to ensure that they support their not see any housing Bill in the advanced legislative customers, to strengthen and accelerate the delivery of programme. the schemes that we have put in place, and to ensure that households know where to get help if they are Mr. Austin: As I said, my right hon. Friend will struggling. At every stage, we shall show that their provide further details later. Government are on their side. The hon. Lady also asked about mortgage law. The Ministry of Justice has been reviewing it in response to 10.53 am concerns raised in connection with the Horsham case, Sitting suspended. 23WH 30 JUNE 2009 Forensic Science Service 24WH

Forensic Science Service Mr. Hoyle: I totally agree with my hon. Friend, but this has been going on not for months but for years. This Minister has not approached me or other MPs. We 11 am were in regular contact with the Minister who used to Mr. David Amess (in the Chair): Unlike the last have responsibilities for the FSS, the Under-Secretary debate, when we did not have enough colleagues to fill of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the the time, it appears that we now have a number of hon. Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch (Meg colleagues who wish to participate in this debate. I Hillier), and we discussed all the issues with her. There should like everyone to have a chance to speak, but it is were discussions from start to finish. What has changed? up to hon. Members to determine how many I can call. We now have a Minister who does not believe in Back Benchers. What we have is a technocrat. We have stopped doing politics because good politics is about talking to Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): It is a pleasure to Back Benchers and to the representatives of the sites see you, Mr. Amess, in the Chair for this very important that are down for potential closure. That is what politicians debate. I am pleased to see that we have before us the should do, but technocrats do not do that; they just same Minister who announced the reorganisation of accept decisions. I hope that the Minister will prove me the Forensic Science Service. His announcement came wrong and show that he is not a technocrat and that he the day that we had a change in Home Secretary—a is going to do politics, because it is about time that he good day, it seems, to get bad news out. Members of did. I am disappointed in him because all the other Parliament were not given any prior warning of the Ministers took the time and the trouble to speak to us news. In fact, we had the media on the phone telling us and explain what was going on and the rationale behind what was happening. That is not a good way for the the decisions. Unfortunately, we have not seen that from Government to do business; in fact, it is a very poor this one. If the Minister wishes to intervene, I will give way. way at any point so that he can clarify his position and Let us set the standard of where we are at and from why he has taken a different role to others. where we go. Of course the announcement was bad news. We are talking about a review of seven sites. I Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend hope that the Minister will stand up and apologise to agree that not only did the previous Minister meet us to hon. Members. The Home Secretary has taken the talk courteously about the matter, to try to get us to trouble to say sorry for not giving advance warning, but understand where the Government were coming from, why should he apologise? He knew nothing about it. but she also offered to go with us to visit some of the The decision was made while one Home Secretary was facilities, particularly the one in my constituency in going and another was arriving. I hope that the Minister Vauxhall? stands up now and apologises so that we can see what a decent chap he is. Does he wish to stand up? No. I think that that sums it up. That tells us everything about how Mr. Hoyle: I would welcome this Minister to Chorley. this matter has been handled. It has been pretty appalling, I hope that he does not pass judgment and allow things has it not? to happen without visiting sites and understanding the quality of the work that takes place, and the importance On 8 June, the Forensic Science Service launched a of that work. This decision is about privatisation. I have collective consultation in readiness for reorganisation now found out that the chief executive is leaving and a of the business. As I have said, the timing of the new one is about to come in. He is Mr. Simon Bennett announcement was particularly good—as one Home from QuinetiQ—[HON.MEMBERS: “Oh no!”] We all Secretary departed and another took office. It was a know about QuinetiQ and how to become a billionaire: good day to bury bad news. In light of the Minister’s run a business, privatise it, fill up the bank account and timing, I hope that he will be able to provide very off we go. Is that what is really behind the decision? It comprehensive answers to all our questions, and that he seems very strange that the chief executive who announced will not simply hide behind the argument, “Nothing to the closure programme and set out the rationale for it do with me, guv. This is an operational matter for the should be replaced. Surely the new chief executive FSS.” We do not want to hear that. This is about should be the person who reviews the situation of all ensuring that crimes are solved in the future. the sites—unless there is a hidden agenda, and I think that we should tease out that hidden agenda. The Minister David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): must be up front and honest with us. I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. I raised this issue in the House on 11 June, just The Forensic Science Service states that as a consequence days after the announcement. To be fair to the Minister, of the reorganisation, there is likely to be a headcount who is a decent man of integrity, he wrote to me a day reduction of some 30 to 40 per cent. of the total work or two later, giving me the statement for which I asked. force. That change will take place over the next 18 months. However, I was alarmed by what the letter said. Will the It is against that backdrop that I applied for the debate, Minister agree, when he winds up, that the decision has and I want to highlight my concerns about the Chorley been inevitable for a long time? His predecessors have site and the impact on the whole of the Forensic Science undermined the ability of the FSS to perform to its full Service. potential by actively encouraging profiteers in a service The Forensic Science Service is a leading provider of that should be about public interest and not commercial analysis and interpretation of evidence from crime scenes. gain. That is the concern of Labour Members, who It provides a comprehensive service from crime scene to have been raising the matter for months and months. courtroom and analyses more than 120,000 cases each Now we see that up to 800 jobs may be going, which year. It is the market leader in the supply of forensic is appalling. science to the police and coroners in England and 25WH Forensic Science Service30 JUNE 2009 Forensic Science Service 26WH

Wales. It is also a supplier to places such as the Isle of been affected by many of the Government’s changes to Man, the overseas territories and other Commonwealth the FSS. They make an incredibly valuable contribution countries. It has a global reputation for excellence in the to forensic science. development and deployment of new and advanced techniques. Its heritage and expertise also provide the Mr. Hoyle: Of course there are private companies basis for world-class training services. that can do a job and pick up some of the work. There is lots of work out there. The one thing we know is that David T.C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): As someone criminals will continue to come up with new ways to who supports the free market, may I say that I share the commit crime, which therefore have to be fought. Some hon. Gentleman’s grave concerns about the limits of work can be put out to private companies, but we are such a decision and about allowing private companies talking about the core of the business. to provide evidence that could be used in murder trials? He has been critical of some Ministers, but will he pay tribute to the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee, Mr. Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): The hon. who has said that we will have an emergency investigation Gentleman makes a powerful case and I am following of this matter in the next two weeks, before the recess? I his argument closely. He is absolutely right about the hope that the hon. Gentleman will encourage anyone importance of forensic science. In Northamptonshire, with relevant evidence to come before that Committee 47 per cent. of all theft and motor vehicle crime detections, to make a strong case for keeping the FSS open. 30 per cent. of theft from motor vehicle detections and 48 per cent. of detections of burglaries from dwellings Mr. Hoyle: I welcome that very important news. It are a direct result of fingerprint and DNA analysis. sends a simple message to the Minister: stop anything going ahead and stop the plans now to allow that Mr. Hoyle: I totally agree with the hon. Gentleman. Committee to do its vital work. We welcome that news and I hope that the Government take heed of what has Mr. David S. Borrow (South Ribble) (Lab): My hon. been said. It is on the Minister’s shoulders. It is no use Friend is rightly proud of the forensic science work that him saying, “It’s not me, guv.” We do not want bully is done in Euxton in his constituency, but does he agree boys in suits. We want to ensure that honesty comes that there is a partnership between the work at Euxton across in this Chamber, and for him to take on board and the excellent work that is done at the university of what we have to say. We want him to listen, and to learn Central Lancashire? It has one of the best forensic from previous mistakes. QinetiQ is a big mistake. science courses in the country and was recently featured David Taylor: The Minister’s letter of 17 June has in a television series. Does he also agree that the proximity been mentioned. I genuinely believe him to be honest of those facilities is key to ensuring that we maintain and open. In it, he said: that centre of excellence? “We are committed to FSS’ survival as a core player in the forensics market and a vital part of the Criminal Justice System, Mr. Hoyle: I cannot disagree—my hon. Friend is and are investing considerably in the transformation programme.” absolutely correct. It is about bringing together the It is true that there is considerable investment, but I was know-how of the FSS based in Chorley and the university disappointed with the words “a core player”; it should of Central Lancashire, which specialises in forensic say “the core player”. The FSS ought to be the dominant science degrees, and about building up the expertise. player—it sets standards of professionalism and it is a The joke is that the FSS has just built those links with beacon. It is a great pity that forensic science has been the university, only for them to be thrown out. That is fragmented in a way that will allow the FSS to be sold ridiculous. There is a centre of excellence at the university off in three years’ time, which is the plan. and an FSS centre of excellence only 10 miles away. Why would anyone consider closing the latter? It is Mr. Hoyle: I cannot disagree with my hon. Friend. In common sense not to, but obviously the lack of common fact, the problem is that the small players in the market sense is coming through, and it is a charter for criminals. are cherry-picking the work. That is what it is about. We That is what the Government are proposing. That is know that the FSS is second to none in the world. Cases why they have got to think long and hard and withdraw that would not otherwise have been solved have been from their decisions, which will have a serious impact solved by the FSS. Do we really believe that private for all of us. My hon. Friend is spot on. companies will go back to cases from 30 or 40 years ago to solve murders, rapes and other serious crimes? The The FSS also pioneered the development and answer is no. It is because of the professionalism within implementation of DNA technology, and it paved the the FSS that that can be done. way for establishing the world’s first DNA database, which was launched in April 1995. It has also led the The FSS has held the evidence and is ready for the way in helping to solve cold cases. As I said, that service day when it can solve those cases. The private sector will is not to be underestimated, given the advance of technology. not do that. We know what the private sector is about: it is about making money and answering to shareholders, The FSS has seven primary sites around the country. not answering to victims of crime. The danger is that It is important to ensure that there is a geographical the move is a charter for criminals, and the Minister spread. As we know, the service has to be close to the needs to be aware of it. scenes of crimes, because evidence does not last for ever. In fact, in a recent case, the scientists had to leave Mr. Edward Vaizey (Wantage) (Con): The hon. Chorley and get to the scene of a crime because it was Gentleman makes his points extremely effectively, but I pouring down, and the blood was disappearing and the hope he will not lose sight of the fact that many evidence was being washed away. If forensic scientists small practitioners, some of whom are based in my are two hours away from such a crime scene, how is the constituency—I hope to talk about them later—have crime going to be solved? The answer is that it is not. 27WH Forensic Science Service30 JUNE 2009 Forensic Science Service 28WH

[Mr. Hoyle] FSS chief executive, referred to a headcount reduction, but he made no specific reference to the closure of Do we know what we are doing? Have we really thought Chorley or any other site. Chorley was not up for this through? Are we assisting criminals to get away closure at that time, and I do not know whether Bill with murders, rapes and assaults? That is what we will Griffiths knew that he was going to be replaced at that be doing if we continue down this road. I hope the point, but it all seems very strange. Dates and people Minister reconsiders the matter very quickly and abandons are moving all the time. the plan now. I met Mr. Griffiths on Monday 22 June. Once again, I visited the Chorley site recently and once again saw no mention was made of the closure at Chorley as part evidence of the success of the FSS. There is a young, of the consultation that would start the process, yet two vibrant work force who work with older scientists, who days later, on Wednesday 24 June, the proposed closure pass on their knowledge. There are hundreds of years of was announced via Prospect. We have still not heard expertise. Just because someone opens a shop, it does any confirmation. Did the Minister phone up any Member not give them the expertise. Expertise is about passing here? Did anyone have a letter off the Minister to tell on knowledge and the best working practices historically. them what is going on? No. Yet previously, we were All that will be lost. informed. What is the difference between Ministers Of course, Chorley’s services range from drugs to the such as my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, coding and detection of footwear, which is very important South and Shoreditch and this Minister? Is it arrogance? in solving a lot of crimes. Mobile phone expertise and Is it that he does not want to talk to Back Benchers? electronic forensics are the latest things. They can detect Are we not worthy of being spoken to? whether someone who is in a serious car crash was It seems strange that different Ministers have played using their phone. It can detect people who are dealing such different roles: from full contact, full conversation on the telephone or people who hold paedophilic images. and engagement to zero. That is what we have had: zero A mobile phone can convict people. Which site deals contact and zero engagement. That is not good enough, with such things? Chorley. Which site do the Government is it? I hope the Minister will explain why he does not want to close? Chorley. I presume that the Minister has think that it is worth speaking to Back Benchers, when considered the matter. Again, we do not want to hear, previous Ministers did. “It’s not me, guv. It’s them down the road. I’m only the How can an organisation operate in such a manner? Minister.” We want to hear what the Minister is going How can that be right? I believe that the FSS’s proposals to do to ensure that we continue to put paedophiles are misguided and will severely limit the organisation’s behind bars where they belong. That is what we are ability to support the police, the Crown Prosecution talking about and why the matter is so serious. Service and the coroners in solving crimes and investigating On hearing the news of the job cuts, I was very deaths. The Chorley site acts as a central hub for the concerned about the effect on the Chorley work force. police forces of Greater Manchester, Merseyside, Does the Minister want to intervene? Lancashire, Cumbria, Cheshire, North Wales and North Staffordshire, and sometimes for parts of Derbyshire. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Those areas have the highest crime rates outside London, Home Department (Mr. Alan Campbell) indicated dissent. and Chorley enjoys an excellent working relationship with their police authorities. Chorley also works with the Isle of Man, which I do not believe has been Mr. Hoyle: Okay. consulted. Neither have the coroners. A population of The news is sad. I was also horrified by the news, about 8 million will end up with no forensic science site, which was announced through Prospect, that three yet we know that Manchester and Liverpool are a sites—Chorley, Chepstow and Priory House—were major crime hub. proposed for closure. It will come as no surprise to hon. The geographical location of the Chorley site plays Members that that was a damaging blow to staff morale an important role, as the police can bring vital evidence at Chorley and the other sites. The employees at Chorley there to be examined, which helps solve serious crime have expressed how devastated they are, because they cases where early detection is required. For example, in are dedicated to preventing crime and bringing criminals drugs cases, the forensic science team at Chorley, which to court. They are not interested in shareholders’ profits; specialises in such cases, is asked to respond within they are interested in ethics and putting criminals behind hours of receiving a sample. The police wait for it to be bars. analysed in order to get criminals into court. If they I was amazed by the subtle shift from the FSS. We have to travel two hours to the west or three hours to the started with a consultation about a head count—that is south, how will they achieve that? It cannot be done. what we were told—which then became a consultation That is why I say the proposal is a criminals’ charter. We about the proposed closure of three sites. Why those will not be able to get evidence to court on time. That is three sites? Why does the consultation not cover the why it is so serious. I am not just using rhetoric—these seven sites? Why should we shut any site when we need a are the facts. geographical spread? We need to return to that issue. I The Chorley team’s ability to respond quickly plays a certainly do not want people to lose their jobs. We major part in bringing serious offenders to justice. The cannot put a price on stopping and solving crime, but police will be unable to operate in their usual fashion if the message seems to be that we will save money at the Chorley is closed down. Members will remember the expense of allowing criminals to get away. tragic death of Garry Newlove, who was beaten to We have gone from a consultation on a headcount death outside his home. We know that not getting reduction to a consultation on a reduction by three evidence is a danger. It was the Chorley Forensic Science sites. In a letter to me dated 8 June, Bill Griffiths, the Service that detected the evidence, ensuring that the 29WH Forensic Science Service30 JUNE 2009 Forensic Science Service 30WH thugs who did it ended up in jail. The team were up Then people will wonder why the necessary results are against the clock. The judge was almost willing to give not being delivered. We must ensure that we are in the way and allow the case to be dismissed because evidence best position for the future. had not been produced. That is the importance of the The closure flies directly in the face of the foundations Forensic Science Service, and that is why we must of the criminal justice system. Evidence should be gathered ensure that evidence is kept close to where the cases are. to prove conclusively an individual’s innocence or guilt Can we really allow a decision to be taken that could of a crime. That is what comes from the Forensic restrict the police’s ability to bring vicious killers to jail? Science Service, because that is what it specialises in. What alternative arrangements are the police expected Having spoken to staff, I am told that they find increasingly to make when urgent examinations must be undertaken? that cases are being dropped not because of lack of The FSS in Chorley also played a crucial role after evidence but purely because of the cost of analysing it. the 7/7 London bombings. Do we really believe that the That is a problem. It is not just small cases; it can FSS in London alone could deal with major bombings? involve more serious ones. That will happen even more The work was distributed among the centres in England if the Forensic Science Service is not there. At what and Wales. Unfortunately, the UK is likely to suffer point does it become acceptable to say to a person major bombings again, or to help other countries where seriously traumatised physically and mentally that it is they have taken place. We need a plethora of Forensic not worth the cost to bring their attacker to justice? We Science Service sites to fight terrorism. Capacity within cannot put a price on that. Although I acknowledge the the system is essential. If sites are closed, the service will need to achieve value for money and reduce costs if not be able to deal with incidents like the 7/7 bombings. possible, forensic science should never be about making I am pleased that notes keep coming from the henchmen money. It should be about investigation, discovery and behind the Minister. confirmation of facts with a view to bringing those who commit crimes to justice. It is a sad situation. Forensic scientists at Chorley worked on the case of Rhys Jones—a young boy who Turning to the process leading to the decision to close happened to be walking back from football at the three sites, I would like to ask the Minister what consultation wrong time and was tragically shot. Chorley played a he has had with the police, the coroner’s office and the role in the forensic science of that murder as well. Isle of Man, and what has come back. Will he share that information with us? Let us not hear, “Not me, Who played a part in the case of the gangsters in guv; it’s somebody else.” Have the police been alerted to Manchester who have just gone to court? The Forensic the original proposal for a head count reduction or the Science Service at Chorley. We cannot underestimate new proposal for the closure of three sites? He might be that work. We must get on with what we do best. The able to help us with that. What have the police been FSS also deals with drugs and delivers lectures to the consulted on—reduction in head count or closure of police. It works so well, yet we are willing to throw that sites? I have mentioned the importance of the coroner’s out. office and its work. FSS staff inform me that they are very busy. They are I made a point earlier about drugs work and the need full up with work. It is not a question of spare capacity; for a speedy response. It is crucial. Have the police been the FSS does not have any. It is a busy organisation. The told about the closure and what effect it will have on the effects will be serious, if we are not careful. The police need to turn around forensic science information quickly? place great demand on the drugs team at Chorley in It is imperative that there is a detailed impact study that solving crimes and putting a value on drugs. It is not involves the police and all other partners before this just about analysing whether something is cannabis. decision is taken forward. If not, we will be simply How strong is it? What is its street value? Is it for a deal signing a criminals’ charter that will reduce the effectiveness or for home use? That information does not come of the FSS in responding to the needs of the police easily; it takes true analysis. Forensic material must be when solving crimes. investigated at an early stage. I turn to the implications for the staff if the restructuring The FSS does fire scene examinations. In a recent takes place. Staff have been told that career development attack in Bolton in which, tragically, someone died and opportunities will be available as a consequence of a fireman was seriously injured, the FSS came down reorganisation. I am confused by that statement because from Chorley. Where is the nearest site? There are only they are facing a severe reduction in numbers. Staff will two centres: Wetherby and Chorley. Fire scenes must be be invited to reapply for their jobs if they wish to dealt with quickly. We cannot say, “Oh well, we’ll do the remain in the service. That leads to growing uncertainty analysis tomorrow or the day after”; it must be done and will mean that even if their applications are successful, immediately. We are risking that. their terms and conditions will change—the decision I mentioned the benefits of having an FSS site near really is about money. What guarantee can the Minister the university of Central Lancashire so that the two can give that staff will not have to move from one part of work together. Students can come to the Forensic Science the country to another to maintain their jobs? Why Service at Chorley to build skills for the future. The would someone based in the north-west move to London private sector will not do that for us. Links will be torn to carry out their work? Is there room for them on other apart if the Chorley site closes. We must ensure that sites? The answer is no. Chorley is one of the few sites that severe blow to the north-west is not allowed to fall. where the Government owns the land around the facility It also threatens the future viability of the national and could expand it. That should be considered seriously. Forensic Science Service team as a whole. An organisation This is no way to treat the highly skilled people who cannot compete successfully with private operators by have so much to offer and who provide a first-class simply withdrawing from a region the size of the north-west service in the field of forensic science. The Chorley and allowing the private sector to cherry-pick the work. laboratory has consistently met and exceeded its targets. 31WH Forensic Science Service30 JUNE 2009 Forensic Science Service 32WH

[Mr. Hoyle] hon. Gentleman that when the Minister stands up to make his concluding remarks he will say, “Not me, guv” The management have been informed that staff loyalty about that, too. He will claim that the police refused to will be rewarded. How will it be rewarded? There is no continue to fund the organisation. However, the registration more loyal and dedicated professional work force than of forensic practitioners is as important to forensic those at the Chorley site. Despite that, they are faced science as the continued success of the FSS. with the awful prospect of redundancy. In effect, there is now no registration system for The Forensic Science Service provides a mission statement individual practitioners of forensic science, including on its website: those who work at the FSS. The National Police “To retain and reinforce our leading position as the principal Improvement Agency is in charge of registration and is provider of forensic science to the UK criminal justice system, using the United Kingdom Accreditation Service to and use this platform to become the leading provider worldwide, accredit forensic science. However, UKAS will accredit thereby enhancing long term shareholder value.” only companies, not individuals. Individuals who work I am sure that we all share that vision, but the closure of in the FSS cannot get individual accreditation. three sites, including at Chorley, is not the way to go The impact of that on small companies, including the about things. I therefore urge the Minister to look three companies that I mentioned, has been massive. carefully at the forensic science proposals and to realise Mr. Roger Robson, who runs Forensic Access, says that the damage that will be done to the service and to the overall it will have cost him about £35,000 to achieve north-west if the Chorley site closes. I urge him to UKAS accreditation. It cost £1,200 just for his company instruct the FSS to assess its future plans and to abandon to apply and £24,000 to get the qualification. UKAS its current proposals. As I said, this decision is a charter charged £900 a day for consultation work. Such an for criminals. It is about providing work for the private accreditation service will put many small practitioners sector. out of business. I hope that the Minister will be honest, answer the Another problem is that the National Police Improvement points and not hide behind other people. The Government Agency will allow outsourced forensic work to be applied have only one shareholder—we are the shareholder. If for only in bundles. Therefore, only companies that they are serious about putting criminals behind bars, cover a range of forensic services will be able to tender they should not proceed with this decision, and they for such work. To pick up on the remarks of the hon. should answer the questions. Thank you, Mr. Amess, Member for Chorley, that is a charter for big business. I for your patience. suspect that his sympathies lie more with small, individual expert practitioners, rather than with huge, multinational Several hon. Members rose— private companies that are owned by shareholders. That change is a huge problem for companies such as Contact Mr. David Amess (in the Chair): Order. I appeal for Traces, which specialises in fibres, and Manlove Forensics, short speeches so that I can call all hon. Members with which specialises in entomology. a constituency interest before we start the winding-up Those companies have been in contact with Andrew speeches at midday. Rennison at the Home Office, and I must put on the record their gratitude to him. The hon. Gentleman is 11.32 am concerned about the lack of response from the Minister, but my constituents have said that they have had good Mr. Edward Vaizey (Wantage) (Con): I am grateful access and constructive discussions. However, I do not for your chairmanship and guidance, Mr. Amess. I will wish to create a divide between the Minister and his be as brief as possible. I certainly do not intend to speak official. My constituents were told that a “procurement for more than five minutes. lite” framework was forthcoming on 4 June. Has it I congratulate the hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle) come forward? Such a framework is incredibly important on securing this debate. If I were a Minister, I would as it would allow small, independent practitioners to think that with friends like that, who needs enemies? continue to tender for forensic science work. Luckily, I am not. After today’s outing, I intend to Thank you for allowing me to make that short attend any debate that the hon. Gentleman opens or contribution, Mr. Amess. I want simply to get one plans to contribute to. message across to the Minister: the changes in the FSS On the Forensic Science Service, there are a number have turned what was a world-class service on its head. of independent practitioners in my constituency: Dr. The hon. Member for Chorley talked about the catastrophic John and Kathy Manlove run Manlove Forensics in effect they have had on the FSS. I want to emphasise the Grove technology park; Mr. Tiernan Coyle, who lives in effect on the hundreds of small practitioners, many of my constituency, is the managing director of Contact which are based in my constituency, who provide a Traces; and Mr. Roger Robson is the managing director valuable service, important competition and the narrow of Forensic Access in Wantage. Those three companies expertise that is vital to the ecology of forensic science. I met on Monday to discuss the ongoing saga of the ask the Minister to please not lose sight of those difficulties created by the Government’s reorganisation practitioners in carrying out the reforms. of forensic sciences. I have corresponded with the Minister and asked parliamentary questions on this issue. 11.37 am To add to the woes of the hon. Member for Chorley, he should be aware that the Government have also got Colin Burgon (Elmet) (Lab): Like my hon. Friend the rid of the Council for the Registration of Forensic Member for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle), I declare a constituency Practitioners. It was closed even before the consultation interest. There is a Forensic Science Service laboratory on the matter was concluded. It will not surprise the in Wetherby in my constituency. My hon. Friend has 33WH Forensic Science Service30 JUNE 2009 Forensic Science Service 34WH covered the ground well. He is right to say that MPs If we got a bit of honesty, perhaps the Minister have been treated shabbily. However, the work force would be able to explain a few things. I am looking at have been treated in an even more shabby manner. The something that I got from the Public and Commercial trade unions have been frozen out of many of the Services Union parliamentary group, which contains discussions as this shambolic process has proceeded. I some of the information that went to the interview pay homage to the work force in Wetherby. As he said, panel for the chief executive position—this is from our they are a loyal and dedicated bunch. Government. It says: This matter points to the absolute failure of the new “In order to respond more quickly to the changes in the Labour political ideology. There is a wonderful symmetry forensic science market, increase customer focus and improve its between that market ideology and that of the Conservative commercial competitiveness, the FSS was in 2005 transformed into a Government-owned company. This is intended as a precursor party. I argue that the introduction of the market has to evolution into a private sector entity, the timing of which destroyed the FSS. The starting point of that was the depends on FSS’ ability to transform itself into a viable, commercial McFarland review of 2002-03, which stated that the entity.” FSS being the national supplier of forensic science That is what was laid down before the chief executive, services created a fundamental market distortion. It so let us have some honesty. Without honesty, we are recommended that competition be stimulated to increase going to finish up with the service being sold off to the investment. It stated that, in effect, the police form a private sector. It is another QinetiQ waiting to happen. monopoly customer, which also distorts the market. New Labour’s love affair with the market allowed it to Let me remind hon. Members that on the day of the go along with such distorted thinking. I am not a QinetiQ company’s flotation in 2006, the top 10 managers believer in the market. I believe that there are areas of held shares worth £107 million— our public life, such as education, health and the criminal justice system, that have no place in the market. Mr. Hoyle: How much? Obviously, I have had contact with my constituents in Colin Burgon: They received £107 million for an Wetherby, and they want me to flag up some particular investment of just £540,000. They made £200 for every concerns. They are concerned that redundancies will £1 invested. The Chairman of the Public Accounts result in the loss of many experienced staff from forensic Committee, the hon. Member for Gainsborough science and that those staff will leave the industry (Mr. Leigh) was mentioned earlier. He has said that altogether, leaving a skills gap in the future. Will the “senior public servants managing QinetiQ behaved dishonourably. Minister address that? The staff who will be made They sold the idea to the MOD of privatising the business redundant are mostly career specialists who have committed without explaining they stood to benefit.” many years to forensic science and are going to find it I think there is a horrible smell about this whole process. very hard to find comparable employment. What I am There is subterfuge and dishonesty, and I think we really arguing is that all this is bound up with our idea should stop the whole process and reconfirm our of the public and the private, and about consumers and commitment to the FSS staying firmly in the public citizens. I am willing to argue that staff in the existing sector, and to creating a protected market within that FSS go the extra mile and spend the extra hour because sphere. they feel committed to that public service. That will not be replicated with the great desire to introduce the market into forensic science. 11.44 am There is a tradition that Ministers run Departments, Mr. Ben Wallace (Lancaster and Wyre) (Con): It is but I fear that it is the other way around in the Home delightful to follow the hon. Member for Elmet (Colin Office. I have experienced Ministers coming along with Burgon). I was a director of QinetiQ before coming to crackpot ideas about building a super-prison in my this House. I am not a millionaire and I was not part of constituency. There were no rational arguments behind the seniority to whom money was doshed out, but it is those ideas, and it seemed as though there was a force, important to bring that experience to bear in this debate somewhere behind them, driving that process. I can because I have seen it before. only presume that the unelected civil service, which we The previous speakers are absolutely right—in all my are never supposed to criticise, actually determines the days, including the dark days of the 1980s and 1990s agenda on such matters, so we have got to ask whether when people talked about Tory privatisation, I have Departments are running Ministers. [Interruption.] That never seen a worse privatisation than that of QinetiQ. I may be open to debate. can tell you how it starts, Mr. Amess—it starts off with I am aware that several people want to take part in the Treasury, which wants the money. Its fingerprints the debate, so I shall end with a few questions. My hon. are all over this, just the same as with QinetiQ. Then a Friend the Member for Chorley has mentioned that we bit of part-private assistance is brought in; that is what seem to have a new chief executive, Mr. Bennett, and they call it. There is a bit of public-private partnership, that there is a connection or relationship with QinetiQ. or the status of the body is changed. Once those people We have to be careful about this—and let us have some have been brought in, the first thing they do is take the honesty, because, since 2003, when we first met the then axe to the real asset of the organisation. The only real Home Secretary, there has been a bad smell about this asset of such organisations are the scientists, whether whole process. If we are absolutely honest, this process they are in the defence research laboratories, the Defence has, from day one, been about fattening up the FSS to Evaluation and Research Agency or the Defence Advanced sell it off eventually as a privatised business. Let us be Research Projects Agency. honest about it. No matter how polite Ministers have But how do people get those departments to become been in telling us about things and updating us, that was private? They do not incentivise the scientists. They go behind the process. along to the civil servants, some of whom in QinetiQ 35WH Forensic Science Service30 JUNE 2009 Forensic Science Service 36WH

[Mr. Ben Wallace] Each police force buy their own batons and bullet-proof vests. That is a total waste of money and I do not know had absolutely no qualifications to develop radar or why we carry on doing that. It would not be done in any invent some of the amazing things that have kept our other police forces and it certainly would not be done in country safe, and they give them huge amounts of the armed forces. We should look at saving money in money. I remember that the marketing director walked that area. That would help the FSS to use all its skills, away from QinetiQ with more than £1 million, and I which I know that it does, and would give it a sound think that all she had ever been was a basic civil servant base on which to do business. who had never been in the world of advertising or The reality is that the service is not ready to be marketing or anything else. They said, “Have a bit of privatised and it will not be ready for a long time. I have cash and off you go.” That was appalling. a number of constituents in Lancaster and Wyre who It is the Ministry of Defence’s fault—there was no work in the lab in Chorley. In terms of the awful phrase, conspiracy here; it was the Government’s fault—that “Well, they’ll be offered a job in the new location, but if Ministers allowed the chief executive of QinetiQ not they can’t, they’ll be made redundant,” the hon. Member only to negotiate the terms of his and his colleagues’ for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle) and I both know that relocating pay package on the winning bid, but to do the negotiations. from Lancaster or Chorley is not an option—it is not In the private sector, the shareholders do the negotiations like there will be a job down the road. Let us compare and when they have decided on a preferred bidder, they this situation with that of those who work for the BBC. hand over to senior management to negotiate. With When they were offered the option to relocate to the QinetiQ, we had the chief executive recommending to north—to Manchester—a large amount of public money the MOD, “My preferred bidder is the Carlyle Group, was thrown at them. It is sad that, when it comes to the and by the way, I have just negotiated a wonderful Forensic Science Service, we will leave these people out package that made it important that I choose Carlyle.” to dry. Those civil servants got 19,000 per cent. in exchange, I say to the Government that the service is not ready and who were the casualties at QinetiQ? The same for privatisation and that the mistakes of QinetiQ are casualties as there are about to be at FSS—the scientists. being repeated. In the end, the loser will be our scientific The casualties were the boffins and brain boxes who skill base, which cannot be reinvented or imported over had invented so many important things that keep our night. If we lose that skill base, the winners will be the soldiers safe, that keep our criminals off the street and criminals. that our police now use. These matters cannot be rushed. I know that the 11.50 am Government have been criticised for the way they have handled things, and I am not ideologically opposed to Jessica Morden (Newport, East) (Lab): I congratulate the concept of privatisation per se, but I am a Conservative my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle) who believes in pragmatism. That is one of the greatest on securing the debate. The matter is extremely important strengths of Conservatism in the world in which I live. to my constituents who work at the site at Chepstow, Whatever we say, the FSS is not ready to be privatised which is actually in the constituency of the hon. Member now or even in the next five or 10 years, and I can tell for Monmouth (David T.C. Davies). He has kindly the House why. The Government have failed to make it allowed me to make a few remarks on behalf of my a more efficient and better organisation before they constituents. have come to privatise it. They have done this the I am grateful for the opportunity to speak about the QinetiQ way, thinking, “Let’s get somebody in.” That future of the site at Chepstow, which has been earmarked person is Dr. Simon Bennett. I am not aware that he, as for closure along with two other sites in the west of the an individual, was among the equity snouts in the country. If Chepstow were to be affected, it could result trough. He is a renowned scientist, unlike some of the in the loss of the only public sector forensic laboratory people who were previously brought in, and I hope that in Wales, which houses 170 skilled scientific jobs. The will go some way towards giving comfort to the employees site in Chepstow provides a first-class service and serves of the FSS. He understands science, and he is internationally the west of the country. Frankly, south-east Wales can renowned, so I hesitate to criticise him. ill afford to lose such high-quality skilled jobs in science. However, there are ways in which the FSS could be It would be a huge shame if Wales were left as the only made better. We could encourage the better funding of part of the UK without a base for the Forensic Science our police so that they can use its service. We talk about Service. What discussions has the Minister had with the serious crimes, such as rape and paedophilia, but it Welsh Assembly Government on the issue? upsets my constituents that there is no longer any Staff in Chepstow tell me that the office has always forensic investigation of boring and mundane crimes. If performed extremely well within the service. That is someone’s house gets broken into, or their car is vandalised, demonstrated by the fact that they currently deal with the response is either, “Do it yourself,” or, “Have a overflow cases—in effect, lab work—from other offices, crime number for your insurance.” That is because the including from 10 boroughs in the Met, because London police do not get sufficient funding to allow them to labs are often overstretched and cannot meet the turnaround engage in that forensic debate unless it is a murder or a time. That comes back to the point made by my hon. terrorist event. That would help to make the FSS better Friend the Member for Chorley about there not being value for money, and would mean that more of its much spare capacity in the system. That certainly seems facilities were used so that it would not be so much to be the case from the discussions I have had with under threat. constituents who work at the site in Chepstow. Police procurement is another issue. We are looking I know that Welsh police forces like the local knowledge in the wrong part of the Home Office. The way in which that results from the site being based in Chepstow and the police procure technologies is completely Victorian. that they appreciate the ability of staff to be on site 37WH Forensic Science Service30 JUNE 2009 Forensic Science Service 38WH quickly when urgent work is needed at sensitive crime The comment was made that the service is not ready scenes because time is of the essence when collecting for privatisation. The problem is that if it were privatised, evidence. For example, it is crucial that there are services in five or 10 years’ time, some accountant would look at on hand to deal with items that need to go back to the it and would not care about the skill base anyway. They lab within a day. Such services would be affected if the would simply say, “Well, eventually we’ll move everyone changes went ahead in Chepstow. If the changes proposed to one, two or three offices and they’ll do it all.” To in the consultation were to go ahead, presumably forensic them, it would not matter that people who have done scientists from London would be asked to travel to 20 years service and who live in Lancaster, Leyland or crime scenes in the west of the country—not just Wales— different parts of Lancashire are not prepared to move and attend court cases and case meetings with the several hundred miles away with their families. People police in the west of the country. That would add do matter, and we must recognise that people who have considerably to their travel times, costs and so on—not dedicated many years of their lives to developing particular to mention the already explained difficulties with evidence. skills and using those skills to the service of the public In its presentation to staff, I believe that the FSS said have lives, families and partners. We cannot simply snap it wished to see a good geographical spread of services, our fingers and expect such people to disappear from but if the proposals go ahead, that will clearly not be one end of the country because their place of work has the case for wide sections of the west of the country. My been closed down and there are no alternative jobs in constituents feel that the office in Chepstow has been that area. singled out because it does not have DNA analysis I cannot see any point at all in the closure of any of facilities—even though they have explained to me that these sites. I am sticking up for my constituents who they could easily house those on site. As my hon. Friend work at Euxton, and I will be doing all I can to stick up said, there is plenty of room there and they already have for the skills cluster that exists in central Lancashire. the key factor: staff who are highly skilled in DNA analysis on site. 11.57 am Finally, the constituents to whom I have spoken talk John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I continually about the heavy work load that they have in co-ordinate the Public and Commercial Services Union Chepstow, which is demonstrated by the fact that, as I parliamentary groups. For the past six or seven years, I said, the lab takes on work from other parts of the have been involved in some of the earliest meetings with country. They are also continually offered overtime. Ministers to discuss the future of the Forensic Science Given the excellent service that staff at the FSS provide, Service, as have other hon. Members in the Chamber. they fear that the consultation casts doubt on the ability The issue goes back to when my right hon. Friend the of remaining staff to maintain the high standard of Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Mr. Blunkett) was work because they would be so thinly stretched. Will Home Secretary, and we have gone through a number the changes not simply result in the criminal justice of Home Secretaries since then. system getting a worse service and more eventually The original problem occurred because of lack of being paid for the service, whatever happens to it in the investment in the Forensic Science Service. That was a future? That will be a huge loss, because at the moment long-term issue during successive Governments. A further we have a world-class operation with a reputation for problem was that deep in the heart of the Home Office excellence. I genuinely feel committed to my constituents there was an ideologically driven desire to privatise. who work in the service. They are not interested in The Association of Police Authorities and the Association profits, but are committed to public service and putting of Chief Police Officers lobbied to replicate the Forensic criminals behind bars, as my hon. Friend said. Science Service within police authorities themselves, partly for budgetary reasons and partly because of [MR.MARTYN JONES in the Chair] issues relating to practice. Our concerns then were to secure long-term investment and stability for the service. 11.54 am At the same time, we opposed the relocation of the Forensic Science Service within police authorities because Mr. David S. Borrow (South Ribble) (Lab): I shall of the potential conflict of interest and the professional make only a couple of comments because my neighbour issues that would occur. and hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle) We had successive meetings with Ministers and gained has made a good case for the preservation of the what we thought was a commitment to the investment forensic science laboratory in Euxton in his constituency. and the development of GovCo, which would enable The point I want to make is that we have a skills the Forensic Science Service to stand on its feet and cluster in central Lancashire formed by the university demonstrate its value. Unfortunately, there were delays forensic science courses, a forensic team of 30 at Lancashire even in setting out the processes by which GovCo would police headquarters in Hutton, and Euxton forensic be assessed. There have been subsequent delays in delivering science labs, which are a few miles away. The hon. the investment and ensuring that GovCo can operate Member for Lancaster and Wyre (Mr. Wallace) made a effectively. It is really disappointing that we have yet key comment: we cannot simply close down the labs another threat and another programme: the transformation and assume people will move elsewhere. Forensic science programme. There will be large job losses and key is a specialist area and there are not many areas in the strategic sites will be lost. I echo all that has been said country where people live and do such a job. They about the potential loss of an important collective cannot move elsewhere. Where there is a cluster of build-up of expertise in the area. skills, as in Lancashire, it is completely nonsensical to I urge the Minister to recognise the disappointment throw that away as if it is meaningless and people can felt by members of staff—as well as by individual MPs simply get other jobs. who have been involved in the matter. I am grateful that 39WH Forensic Science Service30 JUNE 2009 Forensic Science Service 40WH

[John McDonnell] The document went on to say that among the key responsibilities of the new chief executive was a requirement the Minister gave the PCS a half-hour meeting yesterday, to prepare the FSS and for his commitment to meet the PCS parliamentary group in July. However, I am worried about the attitude “for its successful transition to the introduction of private capital of management. at the appropriate point if agreed by Ministers”. As has been set out, the management were appointed Clearly, in 2003, 2005 and again in 2009, when the with the specific purpose of following a privatisation new chief executive was being appointed, Ministers saw agenda. A human resources director—Nick Jones—has privatisation as the end goal. There can be no question been appointed from Cable and Wireless, and I believe about that. The result, as we have already heard, was that the Burke Group has been appointed as a consultant that in 2009 we got Dr. Simon Bennett of QinetiQ, and, on human relations matters. However, it has been exposed as we heard in great detail from both the official Opposition as a union-busting company. The TUC undertook a and from Government Back Benchers, the track record report on union-busting companies and included the of that privatisation is not one that we should be proud Burke Group. The report claimed that of or seek to emulate. QinetiQ is an example of a “the tactics used by union-busters are designed to frighten and taxpayer-funded organisation that was already very intimidate workers away from any union attempt to recruit them successful—as the FSS is—being privatised at huge at work.” personal financial gain to the managers involved while Such tactics were also used at Cable and Wireless to try the taxpayer simply lost out in every direction. Taxpayers to isolate the Communication Workers Union and to lost out financially and they lost out on the quality of undermine trade union representation in that company. the service that the organisation had previously provided I am hoping that the appointment of the Burke Group as a public sector body. is a rumour and not a fact, and I would welcome the In the short term, the taxpayer loses. The Government Minister’s investigating the matter. would argue that in the long term, the public will I am grateful for the meeting that the Minister had benefit from the effect of the market and the privatisation with the PCS yesterday, and for the commitment to of the FSS, which is why they set out on that road back meet us in July. I hope that we can establish a working in 2003. We have already had some debate about that. relationship with him that maintains a commitment to Clearly, the market is best at providing all kinds of investment in and organisation of the FSS in the public goods and services. It is best at providing widgets, sector, and that we can now put aside the threat of fashion clothing, designer jeans and mobile phones. I privatisation that is undermining staff morale and the believe that no one would seriously argue that the viability of the service itself. telecommunications services we enjoy in this country today are worse than they would have been if we had 12 pm left British Telecom as a monopoly, as it was more than 25 years ago. I do not believe that anyone would disagree Paul Holmes (Chesterfield) (LD): I congratulate the that telecommunications services are better now than hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle) on his coruscating they were then. condemnation of the Minister for the lack of consultation and for the way in which the recent announcement was Clearly, however, there are areas where the market made on a good day for burying bad news. We heard a has no place. There are areas where arguments about tour de force exposition of the tremendous track record social equity, the social good and the public good are of the Forensic Science Service in general and of the far more important than the profit-driven motive of the Chorley laboratory in particular. We heard examples of market. We have already heard examples, with which I the damage to crime detection that will result from concur, from health and education—as a former teacher, closing three of seven centres around the country—Chorley, I have long made that case during the eight years that Chepstow and Birmingham—and from the loss of scientific I have been in Parliament. The FSS is another obvious expertise and the institutional memory of the organisation, example where the argument that the market knows as well as the individual job losses, the loss of geographical best, that it will produce the best results, is clearly a coverage and the effect of losing, in total, 40 per cent. of fallacy. It will be interesting to hear the Minister clarify the FSS staff, or up to 800 posts. exactly why the Government are so clear in their own mind that bringing market forces into the FSS will be of How have the Government arrived at their position? benefit to the public. As we heard, in 2003 they decided to take the competitive route. We heard comments about the ideological drive The driving motive of the market is profit. The for privatisation, regardless of the merits in individual driving motive of the FSS and the justice system should cases of going down that road. In 2005, the FSS was be catching criminals, as we heard eloquently expounded turned into a Government company—a GovCo—and, in examples in the opening speech by the hon. Member in 2009, a new chief executive was appointed. for Chorley. I have an example from The Times, a The information provided to people applying for the newspaper that is not exactly noted for its defence of job, part of which was quoted earlier, was not published, the public interest and the public good, or of delivery but it was acquired by the Public and Commercial by public services. As a champion of the free market, it Services Union. We have already heard an interesting would like to see the market operate in most areas of quote from the notes for candidates, which stated that life. However, on 21 July, The Times gave an interesting “the FSS was in 2005 transformed into a Government-owned example in an article about some of the market-orientated company. This is intended as a precursor to evolution into a moves that the FSS is taking to try to keep business that private sector entity, the timing of which depends on FSS’ ability it is losing to other areas. The article stated that it is now to transform itself into a viable, commercial entity.” offering the police a service with variable fees so that, 41WH Forensic Science Service30 JUNE 2009 Forensic Science Service 42WH for example, if a test on a piece of forensic evidence concerns about the wider issues arising from the changes leads to conviction, there would be a higher charge than to the service and the proposed cuts that will, potentially, if the test were negative. The Times stated: lead to the loss of 800 jobs over the next two years. “If a positive DNA or blood or fibre match is found, the The debate is important, not only in terms of the jobs agency says, then the fee would be higher than for negative results. at risk, and not only because of the future of the FSS, For example, if dozens of cigarette-ends were found at a crime but because of the questions that it raises about the scene, the police may not think it worthwhile to test them all”, forensic science capabilities for law enforcement to solve because of the cost of testing every one of, say, three increasingly complex crimes, where the use of forensic dozen cigarette ends. But if the police were told that data is becoming ever more essential in bringing serious they would have a small fee to pay for a negative result crimes to justice. but a larger fee to pay if one or two of the cigarette ends led to the conviction of the criminal involved, the As we have heard, the FSS has a proud history, services of the FSS would be more attractive. tracing its roots back to the 1930s, when the use of forensics in dealing with certain types of material was in Surely we should not be looking at a system whereby its infancy. I pay tribute to the FSS for its work in when the police and the justice system are investigating bringing crimes to justice and ensuring that serious a case, they are driven to decide not whether they can crimes are solved. However, its position in recent years catch a criminal by testing the evidence, but whether it has become increasingly challenged and challenging, is cheaper not to test the evidence or whether the FSS or with its turnover slumping by £70 million, based on its private competitors would offer cheap rates for doing it last audited accounts. this way or that way. The driving force should be catching criminals, not the accountant’s bottom line in The catalyst for the debate was the Minister’s written a profit-and-loss ledger. It would be interesting to hear ministerial statement on 8 June 2009, and the proposed the Minister explain exactly why the Government appear changes that underlay it, which raised more questions so confident that taking the accountant’s cost or profit- than it answered. Given the scale and seriousness of the motive approach is better for criminal justice than the proposed changes, it is incumbent on the Minister to current or the previous workings of the police and the answer the questions raised by hon. Members, including FSS. my questions about the strategic approach that is being taken. In his statement, the Minister confirmed that the I have three explicit questions for the Minister. Can FSS is embarking on a Government-backed transformation he explain why the Government are sure that just four programme after six months of wranglings between the geographical centres, after three of the seven have been Home Office and the Treasury, which he elegantly described closed, can cope without affecting response time, which as “rigorous consultation”. The upshot is a reduction of is crucial when dealing with a crime scene? We have 40 per cent. of the skilled work force, the closure of a heard many detailed examples of that. What detailed number of facilities and the adoption of what is described assessment has been undertaken to justify the clear as a new business model. As we have heard, there has assessment that four geographical centres can cope, been a lack of discussion and certainty surrounding the when previously there were six or seven? announcement. Secondly, how will the 40 per cent. job losses— Will the Minister provide further details of the new 800 people—be decided? Will the jobs be those of staff business model, because it is at the heart of finding out who are involved in marketing, business development, about the intentions? How will that business model account management, logistics, quality and policy, or deliver the same integrated service more quickly and will they be those of precisely the expert scientific staff efficiently, as was claimed in the announcement? The who are what the FSS is supposed to be all about—catching key issue is to find out how the ability to provide the criminals? Thirdly, has any evaluation been carried out same services will be advanced by the proposed changes. of the deterrent effect on crime investigation of applying Will he confirm that there will be no diminution in the cost factors to what should be a decision to investigate speed, quality and capabilities of forensics facilities based purely on evidence and the chance of catching available to police and other law enforcement agencies? criminals, rather than on cost? In its 2007-08 financial statement, published in January, The FSS has played an essential role in our criminal the FSS executive chairman, Bill Griffiths, described justice system. It should be above making profit and the uncertainties faced by FSS employees, saying that outside commercial interference. The job losses will have a large impact on the FSS’s ability to do its job. “we have maintained that we must motivate and nurture our staff, Large swathes of the country will be left without public since they are in effect ‘our business.’” sector service provision. The FSS has rightly played a The financial statements also highlight one of the key valuable role in our criminal justice system. Any attempt challenges in the company’s successful transformation, to move it from the public to the private domain is likely which is to have a drastic impact on our criminal justice system “retaining key skills and maintaining staff morale”. and on public confidence in it as a whole. Will the Minister explain how the reorganisation proposals that he has announced help to deliver those goals and 12.9 pm how those key skills will be maintained as a consequence of the changes that are envisaged? James Brokenshire (Hornchurch) (Con): I congratulate the hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle) not just on In a statement to the Press Association on 8 June securing the debate, but on the passionate, powerful 2009, an unnamed Home Office official was quoted as way in which he highlighted the concerns of the saying: 200 members of staff at the Forensic Science Service “The forensics market is changing with increased competition, base at Washington Hall in his constituency, and the reduced business volumes and a higher cost base.” 43WH Forensic Science Service30 JUNE 2009 Forensic Science Service 44WH

[James Brokenshire] surrounding the development of the competitive forensics market place in the UK. Will the Minister explain why The key is in the words “reduced business volumes”. those uncertainties persist and what urgent steps he is Does the Minister agree with that analysis and, if so, is taking to provide the necessary clarification? Will he he therefore expecting cuts or other reductions in police confirm that we will not end up in some parallel situation, budgets on forensics, giving rise to the expected reduced where in-house capabilities are built up within police volumes? We need to understand how the market and services at the cost of the FSS, because we would not be the demand may change in the years ahead and from creating the market that the Minister appears to want to where the reduced business volumes will come. create, which obviously underpins the direction of travel? The Minister’s statement on 8 June had a number of One of the uncertainties in the market relates to the other important points wrapped up in it. He confirmed future regulation of forensic practitioners. The regulator that the FSS would remain as a Government-owned is currently considering proposals for a new regulatory company “for the foreseeable future”, but added: scheme. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage (Mr. Vaizey) said, it is ironic that the Council “GovCo status has provided a suitable platform on which the FSS can transition to a commercially effective and robustly for the Registration of Forensic Practitioners, which the competitive organisation.”—[Official Report, 8 June 2009; Vol. 493, Government established as the regulatory body for those c. 22WS.] giving forensic evidence in court, was allowed to collapse nine days before the end of the consultation period. We need to understand the Minister’s intentions. Will Why was support withdrawn from the CRFP at such a he confirm that it remains the Government’s intention critical time? Will the Minister confirm reports that the that the FSS should eventually transfer to become a regulator may take up to four years to implement the private-public partnership or some other more arm’s new regulatory scheme? Will he confirm that the regulation length vehicle, as was previously suggested? of the conduct of forensic science evidence will include The Minister reaffirmed his commitment to the criteria the independent regulation of individuals involved in established by then Under-Secretary of State, now the the provision of such services? Secretary of State for Health, in December 2005 on the For the sake of the future of the FSS and the livelihoods potential for transition to a public-private partnership. of the constituents of many hon. Members who have It should be noted that the needs of the Home Office as spoken, I trust that the Minister will be able to provide shareholder were to be considered as part of that answers to the real questions that linger about the requirement. In his written ministerial statement of Home Office’s commitment to, and vision for, the future 29 March 2006, the right hon. Gentleman clarified the of forensic sciences in this country now and in the years matter further stating: to come. It is important that those issues are put on the “As a Government-owned business, the FSS has to compete record today, so that all of us involved in the debate can with other calls on public funds and consequently the Home understand better where we are going, because it is clear Office’s investment in it needs to demonstrate an appropriate from the comments made that people simply do not risk/return profile. know. In coming to the relative merits of GovCo vs PPP, the Home Office will need to consider: (i) assessment of the financial value 12.19 pm of the FSS; (ii) the financial risks to the Home Office associated with ownership of FSS; and (iii) Home Office’s funding priorities.” The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the What assessment has the Minister made against those Home Department (Mr. Alan Campbell): I congratulate tests and what agreement has he reached with the my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle) Treasury about financial value, financial risk and Home on securing this debate. Let me say briefly what I will Office funding priorities? Again, the key to all that not do. First, I do not intend to say, “Not me, guv.” is where the policy priorities lie and the direction of Secondly, I do not intend to be anything other than travel. honest in my comments, and you would expect nothing else, Mr. Jones. Thirdly, I stand by what the Home The right hon. Gentleman argued that delivery of the Secretary said—that my hon. Friend and others could vision for the FSS’s business would require have expected better service when the announcement “substantial investment, both in physical and human capital, was made, but I will give the context of how it happened. development of new and existing capabilities and exercising strong implementation skills.”—[Official Report, 29 March 2006; Vol. 444, The announcement on 8 June was an attempt by the c. 69-70WS.] Forensic Science Service to bring Members of Parliament and others into the loop of consultation and to seek Will the Minister confirm how his proposals for the their views on management’s proposed model for the FSS will advance the vision outlined, which underpins future of the FSS which has been discussed with Ministers. the approach to the future of the FSS, and from where It was not about informing Members of Parliament or he expects this investment to come? anyone else about decisions that have been made, because The future of the Forensic Science Service is also no decisions have been made. That is the point of the closely linked to the regulatory environment in which it consultation exercise. sits. A new forensic science regulator has been appointed in the last year and a Forensic Science Advisory Council Mr. Hoyle: My hon. Friend is missing the point. The has been established. Will the Minister provide an update media were told before Members of Parliament. Does on the work of the regulator and the council and say he agree that that is not how we should do business? how he sees those roles developing? The FSS, in its report and financial statements in January, described Mr. Campbell: I am trying to explain that the FSS the developing role of the Forensic Science Regulator as tried to involve Members of Parliament in the consultation, a contributory factor in providing continued uncertainties and I hope not only that the comments that have been 45WH Forensic Science Service30 JUNE 2009 Forensic Science Service 46WH made today will inform that debate, but that every hon. the United Kingdom Accreditation Service’s system, Member, whether or not they have a laboratory in their which seems to have replaced it in a hand-to-mouth area, will take part in the consultation. way?

Mr. Hoyle rose— Mr. Campbell: I suggested that the hon. Gentleman apply for an Adjournment debate so that we would have more time. That matter is not central to the issue that Mr. Campbell: Will my hon. Friend allow me to we are debating today. continue for a moment? I want to set out the background to the many issues The matter has continued not for months, but for that have been raised and to where we are today. The years. It would be wrong to give the impression—I am FSS has for many years provided a first-class service to sure that my hon. Friend was not trying to do so—that the police and the wider criminal justice system. It is the FSS’s transformation is a surprise. People might our ambition that that continues. Until 2005, it was an have been critical if there had been no consultation and executive agency of the Home Office, and had been we had moved to a decision, whether by the FSS or the largely the monopoly supplier of forensic services, but Government. Phrases such as “bully boys in suits” are the reality was that other suppliers were offering competition not only depressing, but misplaced. I want to put on the and it became clear that that trend would continue. An record the fact that the Government’s record in tackling independent review in 2003 warned of the consequences crime and dealing with paedophiles, murderers and so of that process. on is second to none. The suggestion that that would be A commercial market dominated by a Home Office put at risk in any way, shape or form by not addressing agency was not right for the FSS in the long term, nor the FSS’s needs is ludicrous. This is not about saving was it right for competitors and the police. It was not money. The FSS’s losses must be addressed, because right for customers, predominantly the police service, they involve taxpayers’ money, but I assure my hon. which is responsible for obtaining best value for money Friend and others that that is far outweighed by the from the grants provided from public funds. We took Government’s investment in the FSS. the first step towards the creation of a market by In a telling and measured speech, my hon. Friend the changing the FSS’s status to a Government-owned limited Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) company or GovCo. That change affects the dynamics said that investment has been delayed for a long time. of the relationship between the company, whose board We are trying to bring that investment forward, and the now has statutory and fiduciary Companies Act consultation is about management proposing the model responsibilities, and the Home Office shareholder. that it believes is the way forward, and testing that. Colin Burgon: Will my hon. Friend confirm, and does this not betray where the Government are heading, that Mr. Wallace: Will the Minister give an undertaking the notes to candidates state that the creation of a that none of the management, or even the new management GovCo to be appointed, have been or will be offered equity in the Forensic Science Service should a sale or part- “is intended as a precursor to evolution into a private sector entity”? privatisation be made? Do they say that, or not?

Mr. Campbell: I was coming to the hon. Gentleman’s Mr. Campbell: I am looking into that, because it has speech, because he made it as if the decision on privatisation already been raised with me. I am told that it was made were a fait accompli. His questions might be relevant in absolutely clear to the chief executive when he was that context, but that is not what we are talking about. I appointed that there is no presumption that the FSS shall explain where we are in the debate about the FSS’s will move to privatisation, that that policy has not future if he will allow me to do so. altered, and that that was the basis on which he would The hon. Member for Wantage (Mr. Vaizey) and take the job. Time has moved on since my hon. Friend’s others referred to the Council for the Registration of quotation. Forensic Practitioners. I hope that the hon. Gentleman The company has lost 20 per cent. of its market share asks for and secures a debate on that, because I would and, frankly, it must change. It must address its cost be happy to respond to it. He referred to a scheme that structure to reflect the changed market. Its current was entirely voluntary, that never reached the targets business model of linked laboratories that are distributed that were set for it, and from which, in its latter days, the largely geographically is not efficient. Nor, as several police pulled their funding. When members of the hon. Members said, is the link between some laboratories CRFP came to my office to talk about its future and and local forces always the best way forward, because asked for a considerable amount of taxpayers’ money, I the reality is that some forces do not use their local turned them down, because that would not have been laboratory, but put their contract elsewhere. In some the best use of taxpayers’ money. We should be investing areas that works well, but in others it does not. in, for example, the Forensic Science Service. The hon. One purpose of the consultation is to suggest a new Gentleman may ask about the regulator’s role, but he business model, and to brigade its various forensic praised Andrew Rennison, the regulator, who is charged disciplines by crime type so that resources for each with putting a better scheme in place. discipline are clustered in particular laboratories. That raises the issue that some jobs and sites will be lost. Mr. Vaizey: I praised Andrew Rennison for engaging When the consultation started, the FSS had to inform in discussion. I did not praise the decision to close the the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills that CRFP. Will the Minister explain whether he supports it envisaged a maximum of 800 redundancies. But let 47WH Forensic Science Service 30 JUNE 2009 48WH

[Mr. Alan Campbell] Strategic Development Area (Eastleigh) me make it absolutely clear that that is the maximum number, not a foregone conclusion. The first steps in 12.30 pm implementing the plan began with the announcement Chris Huhne (Eastleigh) (LD): It is a pleasure to on 8 June. Let me also make it clear, as the company’s speak under your chairmanship, Mr. Jones. I am grateful chairman and I have been with each other, that we are to Mr. Speaker for selecting this matter for debate. It is in consultation and no decisions have been made. That of intense importance to my constituents in Boorley includes decisions on the future of each and every site. Green and Botley, whose homes will be blighted if their An issue that is of wider importance to many of my pleasant rural setting is developed as a new town. The hon. Friends is the future direction of the FSS. I do not planning process has let them down badly. believe that efficient and effective companies are a monopoly There are two groups of issues. The first relates to the of the private sector. I want public services to be delivered substantive issue of whether it is right to build 6,000 to the highest possible standard. new homes in a new town in the strategic development area north and north-east of Botley and Hedge End. Mr. Hoyle: On a point of order, Mr. Jones. Will the The second group of issues concerns the way in which Minister write to hon. Members about any points to the decision, now incorporated in the south-east plan, which he did not respond? was taken. It is my contention that the consultation process was so fundamentally flawed that Ministers Mr. Martyn Jones (in the Chair): That is a matter for must start again. the Minister, and I am sure that he heard the hon. Let me deal with the substance first. Neither I nor my Gentleman’s point. constituents are nimbys, motivated by the feeling that new homes should be “not in my back yard”. In Eastleigh Mr. Campbell: Yes, I will. we have had intensive debates over the years about where new housing should go, based on an acceptance that later marriage, earlier divorce and longer lives add up to more local housing need. The borough adamantly opposed a previous plan proposed by Conservative- controlled Hampshire county council for a new town on Allington lane, which would have destroyed the distinctiveness of the surrounding communities in West End, Hedge End, Fair Oak, Horton Heath, Bishopstoke and Eastleigh. Even though that new town was never built, Eastleigh has met high targets for housing on brownfield land such as the Pirelli and Causton sites. We have a local track record of taking tough decisions to ensure that we have the housing that local people need, but not by destroying the communities that we love. We have maintained the strategic gaps between our settlements and prevented a sprawling Solent city from merging the villages into one long urban area from Totton in the west to Waterlooville in the east. Ministers should give us credit for meeting targets and therefore give us the benefit of the doubt when we oppose this similar new town. In particular, local residents are greatly concerned about the impact on their area and its environment, including an increased likelihood of flooding, loss of countryside and prime agricultural land, traffic, road infrastructure, sewerage infrastructure, water supply, school and health provision, jobs and emergency service provision. I should mention at this point the opposition of the local parish and town council and Eastleigh borough council. They objected in 2005 when the draft plan came forward and have kept on objecting. I have written to object on numerous occasions. Local residents signed a petition, which I handed in to the House last autumn, and the Botley parish action group has been set up to oppose the plans. Just as importantly, my constituents feel aggrieved because they have not been properly consulted about a plan that will have enormous and far-reaching effects on their lives. If a neighbour wanted to add a house extension, they would have to apply to Eastleigh borough council for planning permission. Each neighbour would 49WH Strategic Development Area 30 JUNE 2009 Strategic Development Area 50WH (Eastleigh) (Eastleigh) receive individually addressed letters alerting them to Forest—were set in a single document called ‘Where Shall We the plan and asking for comments. However, it seems Live?’…This was targeted at stakeholders. In addition a special that in England’s green and pleasant land, people can edition of the County Council’s residents magazine ‘Hampshire build an entire new town without telling the villagers Now’…exclusively dealing with this topic, was distributed to homes across the County Council’s area.” most affected. When I wrote with my objections, I received from the That edition of Hampshire Now was partly distributed Ministers merely an indirect reply that consultation had with free newspapers and failed to reach the homes of taken place. That is not the point; the point is whether many residents, including those living in the area most the consultation was good and thorough enough. Was it affected by the proposal, namely Boorley Green and good enough? I believe the consultation to be at variance Botley. Should the Minister require this, I can arrange with the legal requirements and as such to be an obstacle to deposit with him affidavits from residents in the most to the adoption of the south-east plan. I believe that if affected area, who will be surrounded by new estates if there were a judicial review of the decision-making the proposal goes ahead. They are prepared to testify process, a judge would rule that the process was so that they never received that document. Indeed, the flawed that it should begin again. I hope, therefore, that minutes of Eastleigh borough council—a participant in the Minister will consider that option now and I would PUSH but not a section 4(4) council under the Act—state like his response to that proposal. Will he reconsider the for the full council meeting of 2 October 2008: south-east plan at least as far as it affects the proposal “There is significant evidence that many residents in the rural for an SDA north and north-east of Botley and Hedge End? part of the borough”— In many cases, constituents received no notice whatever, the part most affected— as even a general outline of the proposals was not delivered to them. That is in stark contrast to the legal “failed to receive regional assembly and county council consultation material” requirements set out for adoption of the plan. Let me start with the requirements, which are stated in planning during the formative stages of the South East plan policy statement 11 on regional spatial strategies, published “ahead of the Examination in Public”. by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister in 2004. Paragraph 2.17 states: It is also important to note that, even if a local “It is essential that the public is able to be involved throughout resident received the edition of Hampshire Now, they the RSS revision process and this should include broad public would have had a very general reference, so that a consultation rather than relying on targeted consultation with specific response about the siting of the SDA would particular groups.” have been impossible. That was admitted in a letter Paragraph 2.18 makes it clear that the “pre-submission dated 25 November 2008 from Hampshire county consultation statement” required under regulation 13 council—the relevant section 4(4) council—to a member must “not restrict itself” to how consultation has been of the local action group, which states: carried out but must go further and summarise how the “The county council would agree that sufficient detail and information regional planning body should be provided in any consultation, but this has to be subject “has engaged stakeholders and the wider public in the preparation to information availability. At the time of the 2005 consultation, of the revision on a basis of active participation. It is essential the SDA proposal had not been developed by PUSH”— that this pre-submission participation is not viewed as a one-off and fixed period of consultation on an early draft of the revision. which includes Portsmouth, Southampton and Hampshire, Rather, it is a more continuous process of proactive involvement the three section 4(4) councils in the area— as explained above.” “in any greater detail than being ‘to the north/north east of The RPB is required under section 4 of the Planning Hedge End’ so it was not possible to be more specific than this in and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004 to seek the advice the consultation documents”. of bodies with strategic planning expertise when preparing, The reason why I am pressing the Minister so hard to keeping under review and monitoring the implementation review those plans is precisely that I fear that the of a revision of the RSS. Those bodies are defined in Conservatives, despite what they say locally, are not to section 4(4) of the Act as a county council, metropolitan be trusted on this matter. After all, Hampshire county district council, national park authority or a district council is Conservative controlled, but it also owns council for an area for which there is no county council. much of the land on which the SDA would be built. The I assume that the RPB sought the advice of the Conservative county group has merely said that it has relevant authority in the case of Botley and Boorley “no plans” to sell the land for the SDA, not that it will Green—Hampshire county council—and that is why not sell the land. It could stop the plan in its tracks, but HCC appears to have been charged with overseeing it has not. what consultation there was. Was there any formal arrangement between the RPB and HCC to handle the Moreover, it is a matter of public record that the consultation, and which body bears the responsibility Conservative party has received substantial political for what failed to happen? contributions from house-building companies that have I now turn to the facts of the inadequate consultation. been active in Hampshire, as well as from their owners. The “South Hampshire Sub-regional Strategy, Background For example, Conservative-controlled Hampshire county Document 3, Statement of Consultation”, published in council now proposes to build a gravel pit on Hamble December 2005 by the Partnership for Urban South airfield, near the SDA. It has the support of the owners, Hampshire—PUSH—of which HCC is the only relevant Persimmon Homes, presumably because Persimmon knows section 4(4) member, gives both the procedure followed that that will make it far easier eventually to get permission and the results of the consultation on the SDA. for new houses on the site. Duncan H. Davidson of Paragraph 2.2 states: Persimmon has given £32,000 to the Conservative party, “The Options for the three sub-areas of Hampshire—North and the company has given a further £10,000, according Hampshire, South Hampshire, and Central Hampshire & New to public information on the Electoral Commission 51WH Strategic Development Area 30 JUNE 2009 Strategic Development Area 52WH (Eastleigh) (Eastleigh) [Chris Huhne] When work began on the plan in 2003, it was subject to extensive consultation. Between April and May 2004, website. There is a similar pattern with Barratts—Lawrence more than 1,000 stakeholders took part in workshops, A. Barratt has donated to the Conservative party—and which helped to shape the consultation draft of the with Berkeley Homes, whose founder, Mr. Tony Pidgley, plan. Following the launch of the public consultation in is a substantial Conservative party donor. January 2005, more than 6,000 print and electronic I am not saying that there is anything so simple or copies of the plan were distributed. More than 14,000 corrupt as a deal—cash for planning permissions—in copies of the plan executive summary were requested, any of these cases. I am merely stating that it is hardly and further workshops were held to encourage responses likely that the leading movers and shakers in Britain’s from hard-to-reach groups. Assembly numbers attended greenfield housing industry would all donate to the almost 100 public and stakeholder meetings on the Conservative party if they thought that it would block plan. In addition, a number of public opinion surveys their proposals. As Mr. Davidson of Persimmon has were carried out on behalf of the assembly, gathering been quoted as saying in The Daily Telegraph, the views on key plan policies from a representative sample Conservative party represents of the region’s population. “the best prospect for our industry and our company”. By the time the consultation closed in April 2005, My constituents in Botley and Boorley Green had more than 2,500 written responses had been received better be warned, and that gives added urgency to the from stakeholders and the public. A questionnaire on need to review the plan now. key plan policies was distributed to 3.2 million households and organisations, including local authorities and town In sum, the consultation on the south-east plan was and parish councils. The questionnaire attracted a further clearly not—at least in so far as it affected my 61,746 responses. constituents—issued under the relevant Act, the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004, as required under All that consultation predated the examination in planning policy statement 11. The flawed consultation public. The proposals for an SDA at Hedge End were process, which involved a failure to contact those with a discussed at that examination, and PUSH submitted a legitimate interest in the decisions and a failure to set statement for the examination panel to consider, setting out the proposals in enough detail for people to be able out the justification for the SDA. The examination to make meaningful comment, must lead us to scrap the panel supported the principle of the SDA at Hedge conclusions and start again. Will the Minister give my End, noting that its selection had been challenged by a constituents that commitment today? number of participants, but concluding that it was, on balance, a sound choice. Following the examination, the Secretary of State 12.43 pm published her proposed changes to the draft plan in July The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for 2008. At the time, everyone who responded to earlier Communities and Local Government (Mr. Shahid Malik): rounds of consultation was sent notification that the As ever, Mr. Jones, it is an absolute pleasure to serve documents were available and was given details on how under you. I congratulate the hon. Member for Eastleigh copies could be obtained. (Chris Huhne) on securing the debate on an issue that is important to him and to a number of his constituents Chris Huhne: I am grateful to the Minister for that. and others living in the area. Having listened to his Nobody contests the fact that there was substantial remarks at the end of his speech, I would be extremely consultation throughout the south-east on the south-east concerned if conflicts of interest over political donations plan. The real issue is whether there was consultation had not been managed appropriately. I know that he is with those in the area— particularly in Boorley Green not suggesting that that is the case, but that he does not and Botley—who would be most affected. I have given know. the Minister very clear evidence that the consultation Let me start by providing some background to the did not reach those people. On that basis, does he agree proposals for a strategic development area centred around that the process should start again? the north and north-east of Hedge End. The Hedge End SDA is a long-standing commitment, which was Mr. Malik: I can certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman born out of workshops hosted by PUSH, of which that there were distribution difficulties. He talked about Eastleigh borough council is a member, to discuss the Hampshire Now and said that many of those on whose sub-regional aspects of the draft south-east plan. Those behalf he has articulated the arguments complained discussions led to proposals for the SDAs at Hedge End that they had not received a copy of the paper. I accept and Fareham, and the proposals were provided to the that there were distribution difficulties with it, but it South East England regional assembly, under the banner was made available in public libraries, citizens advice of PUSH, for inclusion in the draft regional spatial bureaux, museums, GPs’ surgeries, petrol stations and strategy. local shops. One would have hoped that that would Let me take this opportunity to address the hon. mitigate some of the difficulties with the distribution. Gentleman’s concerns about the process that was followed to finalise the south-east plan and, in particular, about Chris Huhne: Surely the key point is that if someone how the views of local representatives and local residents proposed an extension to their house, individual addressed were sought and considered. The original draft was letters from the planning authority would, under existing prepared by the South East England regional assembly. planning law, alert those affected by what was going on. It was then submitted to the Government office for Here, we have an example of a far more significant testing and final approval. From the outset, the draft potential development, which would completely surround plan included proposals for an SDA at Hedge End. a peaceful rural haven, but there was no consultation. 53WH Strategic Development Area 30 JUNE 2009 Strategic Development Area 54WH (Eastleigh) (Eastleigh) As the Minister has admitted, there were major problems. much of the private sector housing that would unlock It is simply not good enough to say that paperwork was that social housing is not being completed, because of available in a local public library, because we know that the housing recession. That has nothing to do with the that is not good enough when it comes, for example, to planning process. Therefore it is not relevant to the key individual planning applications. We do not just put issue of whether the consultation process was in line them in the public library. We go out of our way to alert with the legal requirements. Does the Minister accept the individuals who will be affected. that the consultation process was, as I have outlined, not in line with the legal requirements? Mr. Malik: I have some sympathy with the hon. Gentleman’s point of view, but the way in which individual Mr. Malik: The simple answer to the hon. Gentleman’s planning applications are dealt with is a separate issue question is that on balance we do not accept that the from the way in which we dealt with the case in question. consultation was illegitimate. I have said that there were Despite the distribution difficulties that I have outlined, difficulties in distribution but that, because of other the handling of the matter is viewed as, on balance, measures that were taken, it was deemed adequate. He adequate. However, for a number of people it will not will be well aware that the cost of entry-level homes in have been adequate, and that is why we are having this his constituency is nine and half times the district’s debate. lower quartile earnings figure. I know that he wants to I want to say a few words about the hard work, of focus on the consultation, but it is critical that I should which I am sure the hon. Gentleman is aware, that has focus on housing needs. It is difficult to disaggregate been done in south Hampshire to set up the Partnership one little part from the larger plan, as he would like me for Urban South Hampshire and, in particular, to publish to. It may help if I tell him that the consultation on the the south Hampshire agreement, which is a multi-area south-east plan was undertaken in accordance with the agreement on behalf of, and with input from, the 11 local advice in planning policy statement 11. authorities that make up PUSH. In addition to the The SDA is a long-established element in the sub-regional agreement of those authorities, the MAA has the agreement approach of the PUSH authorities to delivering their of Transport for South Hampshire, which is the delivery agreed target of 80,000 homes by 2026, and 6,000 of agent for sub-regional transport plans, policies and those are proposed at the Hedge End SDA. The core programmes, along with other regional partners including authorities’ own reporting shows more than 30,000 Jobcentre Plus, the learning and skills council, Business households currently in housing need. The hon. Gentleman Link and the development agency. is rightly concerned about aspects of the proposed Multi-area agreements are a mechanism that makes SDA, and particularly the pressure that such development possible a new way of working at national and local might put on local infrastructure. I am sure that he levels, with the fundamental aim of driving economic would agree that the funding already committed to development. The south Hampshire agreement will support transport schemes in the PUSH area will help to alleviate the delivery of the partnership’s ambitious programme some of the pressures on the road network. There have by strengthening partnership working between local been capacity improvements to the M27 between junctions 3 partners, departments and agencies. With such agreements, to 4 and 11 to 12 within the last year, and since the PUSH and its key partners will achieve more rapid and Solent travelcard scheme was introduced in 2004, there certain progress in delivery on the ground, particularly has been an increase of 250,000 journeys undertaken by in relation to skills, employment, housing supply and public transport. Those are just two examples of the regional economic performance. work being undertaken. The Homes and Communities Agency has recently The pressures on infrastructure are not limited to announced an investment commitment of more than transport, and in publishing the south-east plan the £75 million in the south Hampshire sub-region. By Government have set the strategic planning context for working with the partnership, the HCA has been able to decision makers in the south-east of England for the ensure that the funding will bring the greatest benefits period to 2026. Perhaps I should also point out that to the area. That level of investment will act as a driver there might be opportunities in the development of the for the local economy and will provide the opportunity local development framework to raise some of the for hundreds of jobs in the construction industry. The concerns that the hon. Gentleman has raised and to Government have also committed to spending in the region shape development in the areas about which he is concerned. of £300 million of investment for housing in the PUSH The plan also contains policies that focus on sustainable area to 2011, of which £169 million has been allocated growth to provide the development that is needed, while specifically for affordable housing. The need for affordable ensuring the protection of the environment, such as the housing has been established by studies throughout the requirement for local authorities to carry out strategic past 12 years, most recently by the strategic housing flood risk assessments and to avoid a net loss of, or market assessment carried out on behalf of all the actively to seek a gain in, biodiversity. I know that he is districts in the PUSH sub-region, which noted that concerned about those issues. The Planning Act 2008 4,520 households were accepted as being in housing introduced a community infrastructure levy which will need in Eastleigh in 2005. The figure had risen to 5,604 allow local authorities to raise considerable funds for by December 2008, representing 11 per cent. of all infrastructure in their areas. The Government consider households in the borough. that to be critical for the future delivery of infrastructure projects. Chris Huhne: I entirely accept what the Minister says The proposed SDA at Hedge End represents a targeted about the need for extra housing. Of course he knows, approach to development that is a good thing for the because I cited the evidence, that the borough has a economic development and sustainability of the south good track record. The problem at the moment is that Hampshire sub-region and south-east England as a 55WH Strategic Development Area 30 JUNE 2009 56WH (Eastleigh) [Mr. Malik] Charges for Oxygen (Airlines) whole. I know that the hon. Gentleman may not be fully content with my response, but I am sure that his constituents 12.58 pm can be fully content that they have a powerful advocate Nick Ainger (Carmarthen, West and South in their Member of Parliament. Pembrokeshire) (Lab): It is a pleasure, Mr. Jones, to serve under your chairmanship. I wish to declare an interest; I am a trustee of the Pulmonary Hypertension Association, as listed in the Register of Members’ Interests. I wish to bring to the attention of the House the fact that some airlines charge large fees to those who need to use supplementary oxygen when flying. I am grateful to the 218 right hon. and hon. Members who signed early-day motion 1,444, in which I called on airlines to scrap those charges. I am also grateful to the Pulmonary Hypertension Association, the British Lung Foundation and the Muscular Dystrophy Campaign for their detailed advice and information. Pulmonary arterial hypertension—PAH—causes high blood pressure in the pulmonary arteries, which carry blood from the right side of the heart to the lungs. The condition causes those arteries to thicken and narrow, which restricts blood flow in the lungs. The resulting symptoms are breathlessness, chest pains, angina, fatigue and fainting spells. PAH is relatively rare, but sufferers from other breathing conditions such as chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and muscular dystrophy can experience similar symptoms, and require supplementary oxygen to help get sufficient oxygen into their blood. Along with medication, those symptoms can be managed with extra oxygen, which can be obtained from a cylinder or an electronic concentrator. Oxygen from either source eases breathing difficulties, allowing patients who otherwise could not undertake even gentle activity to regain mobility. Oxygen is as indispensable to sufferers as the wheelchair is to those with walking difficulties. Unfortunately, that fact is not recognised by many airlines. It is hard to imagine a company refusing to allow people the right to bring a wheelchair into a building and then charging them to use a centrally provided one. However, that is what is happening to many oxygen users who want to fly. Many airlines refuse to allow patients to keep their oxygen with them on flights. Instead, they insist that affected passengers should buy oxygen directly from the airlines, sometimes at huge cost. The Pulmonary Hypertension Association conducted a secret shopper exercise. It found that of the 22 airlines surveyed, only five allowed people to bring their own oxygen cylinders on board, and only nine allowed the use of oxygen concentrators. Some notable exceptions aside, almost every airline that refused permission told the secret shopper that she could be supplied with oxygen by the airline throughout the flight—for a fee. The charges mostly range from £55 to £250, but in some cases are much higher. The British Lung Foundation became involved in the case of Mr. Palmer, who suffers from PAH. He was told by the Emirates airline that he would have to pay an extra £1,972 to be supplied with oxygen on his flight to Australia. In another case, the same airline told a sufferer from idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis that he would be charged £2,800 to use oxygen on a flight from Manchester to Dubai. In both cases, the airline backed down when the passengers called in the British Lung Foundation. However, not all airlines back down, and many people are told to pay up or lose out. 57WH Charges for Oxygen (Airlines)30 JUNE 2009 Charges for Oxygen (Airlines) 58WH

One PAH sufferer said: should not be discriminated against when travelling is “I have just had to cancel my holiday to Singapore and already in place. European Union regulation 1107/2006 Australia. I have been on the phone to Singapore Airlines for an obliges airlines to carry passengers’ medical equipment entire week. I have my own travelling concentrator, and this one is free of charge. Airlines that charge interpret oxygen pictured on the airline’s website to be OK to use on board, but cylinders as not coming under that category, but stronger only if you pay 1st class! I think I have been discriminated guidelines could oblige them to change their view. against.” That was not justified on the grounds of either security The Equality and Human Rights Commission told or safety; the airline was prepared to allow the device on me that it to the plane, but only if the passenger could come up “questions whether airline companies’ refusal to carry passengers’ with a huge premium. oxygen cylinders and concentrators without charge—or at all—is within the law.” Another lady described the bureaucratic nightmare of trying to access oxygen on Ryanair. She said: It says that it is “When I was due to fly to Spain I faxed off my fit to fly letter “seeking to clarify the regulations so that airlines do not inappropriately and then phoned to pay my £100. They said I was not now charge people who require oxygen”. allowed to fly with them as I need 2 litres per minute flow, but they only provide 4 litres per minute. Their safety officer said that The Department for Transport’s code of practice “Access 2 litres per minute was for children only, even though my doctor to Air Travel for Disabled Persons and Persons with had said that was all I require. Also they can only provide oxygen Reduced Mobility” advises that air carriers may approve for 2 hours. I flew BA in the end, but the whole thing was so the carriage of small gaseous oxygen or air cylinders for stressful.” medical use, and recommends that portable oxygen The Guardian quoted one passenger as saying: concentrator devices should normally be allowed if “With many of the airlines it’s a catch-22 situation. You can’t they are battery operated. The Department clarified take your own oxygen on board but they charge you a fortune for that guidance in response to inquiries from the British the privilege of using theirs…Disabled people have to fight constantly Lung Foundation, stating: for things I feel should be made available to us when we need it. “The Code of Practice makes clear that airlines should consider Oxygen is a necessity that is keeping me alive and healthy.” portable oxygen cylinders as medical equipment which passengers Although some financial help is available from charities should have a right to take on board free of charge in addition to for those who need help in paying the charges, it can be standard baggage allowance.” an unnecessary drain on the charities’ resources. The That is quite clear. The code of practice states that air Pulmonary Hypertension Association has told me that carriers can make a charge to provide passengers with in the past seven years the charity has paid about oxygen. However, the Department has also told the £50,000 in grants to cover the cost of airline charges for British Lung Foundation: its members. The association said: “We do not believe that the EC Regulation requires airlines to “This is money that could be spent on something beneficial, provide oxygen free of charge, but we would encourage airlines to such as respite weekends for children, or a specialist nurse, not offer this service at their discretion”. subsidising airlines.” Ultimately, the high charges mean that airlines are at Airlines can thus be in no doubt that the charges that risk of pricing oxygen users out of the air travel market. they are currently levying run contrary to the spirit of the rules. It is clear that stronger guidance—or legislation, Emirates has announced that it will scrap the charge if necessary—is needed if the practice is to be stamped altogether in response to “feedback from customers”, out permanently. In the USA, the Air Carrier Access but not many airlines have followed suit. The fees that Act came into effect on 13 May 2009 and requires all they continue to charge amount to a tax on the disabled. airlines on flights that depart from, or arrive in, the US, That practice needs to end. I shall read on to the record and US airlines wherever they are in the world, to allow the names of airlines that charge and those that do not. passengers to use their own portable oxygen concentrators I list first those of the 22 airlines surveyed that no free of charge, as long as they have been tested and longer charge. British Airways, easyJet, Flybe and Virgin labelled as meeting federal airline administration Atlantic do not charge; and after the campaign by the requirements. The United States believes that there three organisations that I mentioned earlier, Cathay should be no charge. Pacific and Emirates no longer charge. Airlines will, of course, need to follow security procedures, I now list the airlines that charge. Air Canada charges but if some airlines currently allow passengers to take 150 Canadian dollars. Air France charges ¤182. Alitalia their cylinders or concentrators on board, and if airlines charges the cost of a second seat. BMI charges £100. are obliged to carry concentrators in the USA, the El Al charges £75. First Choice charges £150 for short-haul necessary security procedures clearly exist already and flights and £250 for long-haul flights. Iberia charges could be made compulsory in the UK and throughout £124. KLM charges ¤100. Lufthansa charges ¤150 for Europe. To refuse patients the right to carry medical short haul and ¤300 for long haul. Ryanair charges equipment that has been certified as safe, and then to ¤148. South African Airways charges £150. TAP charges charge large sums for alternative provision, is outrageous. ¤150. It is pretty much a lottery, particularly for those Some airlines have responded to the campaign and travelling on longer-haul flights, who seem to be charged changed their charging policy, but it is still a lottery. I most. trust that the Department will work with its European All airlines should allow people who are dependent partners to produce crystal-clear guidance to airlines on supplementary oxygen to travel at no additional stating that they should not be charging for the service. charge, if they have medical clearance to do so. There I hope that the Minister will respond positively to end seems to be no reason why that cannot be achieved. this blatant discrimination by some airlines against Legislation establishing the principle that disabled people disabled passengers. 59WH Charges for Oxygen (Airlines)30 JUNE 2009 Charges for Oxygen (Airlines) 60WH

1.12 pm It recommends that airlines should normally allow such devices to be carried, if they are battery powered and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport not dependent on the aircraft’s power supplies. Although (Paul Clark): It is a privilege to serve under your air carriers are not required to do so under EC regulation, chairmanship, Mr. Jones. I congratulate my hon. Friend some might decide to supply medical oxygen to passengers the Member for Carmarthen, West and South on request. The code acknowledges that it would be Pembrokeshire (Nick Ainger) on securing this debate. I possible to charge for that service to cover the provision also congratulate the British Lung Foundation, the of oxygen. It will be apparent, therefore, that European Pulmonary Hypertension Association UK and the law, which cannot legislate for airlines such as Emirates Muscular Dystrophy Campaign on their work to raise or Singapore Airlines, aims to strike a balance between the profile of this issue in many ways and with many the needs of particular groups and airlines’ commercial parliamentarians, including those who have signed early-day requirements. However, there are further considerations, motion 1444. including those raised by the campaign to which my This debate gives me the opportunity to respond to hon. Friend referred, which has raised awareness of this some of the points raised and to set out the current issue. position. After that I shall turn to the position of airlines, in particular, UK airlines—the point of immediate The Department wants to encourage airlines to make concern—and then expand on how we might proceed. clear their conditions of carriage, so that passengers By definition, aviation is an international business. Many considering travelling on a particular airline are aware of the airlines to which my hon. Friend referred are of its policy and can make an informed choice when international companies based in other parts of the they purchase their tickets. Indeed, I took on board my world—not just in Europe, but beyond—and the issues hon. Friend’s comments about the stress through which that arise are common across the world. Furthermore, a people can be put to try to find out that information. substantial body of international law governs the operation That is why I went online to check out a number of of airlines. That legislation, whether created by the airlines. I typed in “medical oxygen”and “oxygen supplies” International Civil Aviation Organisation or, for European to see what would come up. Although some websites states, the EU is designed to support and help aviation were better than others, all of them carried the necessary consumers, whoever they might be. information. We must continue to work with the transport industry—not just the airline industry—to ensure that Rights of disabled people and those with reduced it provides accessible information and meets people’s mobility, from whatever cause, are established under requirements. European regulation 1107, to which my hon. Friend referred. The regulation is fully supported by the UK Government and enforced through statutory instrument Dr. Rudi Vis (Finchley and Golders Green) (Lab): 2007/1895. However, as he will know, the regulation My wife uses oxygen, so I have been listening carefully does not impose specific obligations on airlines to carry to my hon. Friend the Minister. Earlier, he talked about or provide oxygen in the cabin. However, to help the stress. I have found that stress is not restricted to the UK air transport industry to comply with its obligations airlines. We took cylinders with us when we travelled on under the regulation, the Department published a revised Eurostar. I was kept behind in Paris for an hour because code of practice entitled, “Access to Air Travel for the officials thought that I was going to blow up the Disabled Persons and Persons with Reduced Mobility”. bloody plane. People feel stressed with hotels and trains. Section 7 of the latest edition of the code, published in My wife has a card, which should enable her to get July 2008, includes a section on oxygen advising that air some assistance. However, we have found that company carriers may approve the carriage of small gaseous officials do not know anything about how to obtain oxygen or air cylinders—not exceeding 5 kg gross mass— oxygen. As has been wonderfully demonstrated by my required for medical use, but notes that carriers will hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen, West and wish to ensure that these do not pose a risk to security. South Pembrokeshire (Nick Ainger), it is an issue that is not sufficiently well known. Nick Ainger: I quoted the charges, but I also have a list of the airlines that do not allow patients to take on Paul Clark: As I was saying, there is still a long, long board their own oxygen cylinders. That list consists of way to go. My hon. Friend recognises that a person has the majority of airlines that I quoted as charging for to reassure themselves with regard to both safety and alternative provision. It is clear that the majority of security, and that the right processes are in place. That airlines in this survey are not abiding by those guidelines. may even include taking a short blast from the gas that Paul Clark: I think that my hon. Friend is talking is in the cylinder. Unfortunately, we live in a climate in about the list that he read into the record earlier. However, which we must check everything. My hon. Friend raised many of those airlines fall outside the jurisdiction of a very important point about awareness training for the EU, let alone the UK. He is right about the range of staff who are operating both public and private transport options. Some carriers might charge for supplying their systems. own oxygen or allow passengers to bring on their own Earlier this year, I considered accessibility planning oxygen cylinder. He is also right that a number of those and awareness training for people who plan transport 22 airlines do not permit the latter, but do allow—I was systems within our towns and cities, which is a very just coming to this point—portable oxygen concentrator important role. Let me draw the attention of my hon. devices to be brought on board. But some airlines do Friends to the code of practice concerning aviation to not allow those either. which I referred. The first item in section 7 says: The code of practice issued by the UK Government “All cabin crew, including the flight crew, must receive disability notes that as an alternative to oxygen cylinders, passengers awareness training. For cabin crew, this should be refreshed in line could use their own portable oxygen concentrator devices. with training in safety procedures.” 61WH Charges for Oxygen (Airlines)30 JUNE 2009 Charges for Oxygen (Airlines) 62WH

Although the guide refers specifically to cabin crew, it Let me turn to the American situation. My understanding equally applies to others operating in the field. So, the is that it is a little more complex than it appears on first ability to understand all the issues must apply across the glance. American Airlines will not accept oxygen cylinders board. Individual companies probably need to undertake on planes. It will accept the portable oxygen concentrators further work in that regard. My understanding is that to which we have referred, but they have to come from that is what UK airlines have tried to do on their sites. the seven companies approved by the Federal Aviation Administration, which is part of the US Government. Nick Ainger: Earlier, the Minister mentioned that he The kit is expensive and comes from American companies, had visited a number of airline websites to establish so there are limitations. I did another quick check this what information was being made available to patients morning and I noticed that one company and a number to enable them to make a choice. In certain circumstances, of the other sites had the FAA approved logo. The however, patients cannot exercise a choice because they regime, therefore, is tight, which may limit some are considering a specific route. They may be looking at opportunities. a budget airline route to a relatively small airport. BMI In conclusion, I am aware that the British Lung and Ryanair are both guilty in my book. Moreover, Foundation is jointly campaigning with the Pulmonary charter flight airlines, such as First Choice and Monarch, Hypertension Association UK and Muscular Dystrophy also make charges. When a person books their holiday, campaign to end additional charges for people travelling they have no alternative but to fly with that particular with oxygen and to ensure that all airlines offer the airline. Therefore, they cannot exercise a choice in such same level of service. I suggest that that can be best matters. achieved through an international forum to ensure that we get standard provision across the board. I understand that the British Lung Foundation has been in touch Paul Clark: I recognise that there are some limitations, with my office to discuss this matter further, and I am but the picture is pretty good for UK airlines. British certainly considering ways in which we can find a way Airways, Virgin Atlantic, easyJet and Flybe allow passengers forward. to use free of charge their own oxygen and their own portable oxygen concentrators. However, I accept that Dr. Vis: Can the matter be associated with landing other UK carriers make certain charges. My hon. Friend rights? The Minister has set standards for UK companies, mentioned that Monarch charged £80 and that First and we can put pressure on them. Landing rights are Choice differentiated between short and long-haul UK rights. operations. [Interruption.] Someone from a sedentary position has mentioned Ryanair, but that is an Irish Paul Clark: When looking at an overall package, we carrier. need to consider the issues that arise. Let me now turn to the issue of the carriage by aircraft of medical oxygen as part of a medical kit. That Nick Ainger: BMI. is not a requirement of regulation 1107. The Commission is due to review the regulation in 2010, but as this is new Paul Clark: Yes, BMI is another carrier that charges. European law I would not want unduly to raise expectations My hon. Friend raised questions over a number of that it is likely to be changed quickly. However, it will airlines. He was right to say that Emirates was charging give interested parties a chance to make representations. £1,100 and has now dropped its charges. He also referred Today’s debate takes us another step forward. Raising to Singapore Airlines. Mention was made of £2,800 public awareness about the companies that charge and being charged from Manchester to Dubai, but I did not those that do not will help to focus minds. We need to catch the airline. Emirates and Singapore are not UK ensure that information is available for travellers so that airlines and they are not governed by the EU regulation they can make an informed choice. We need to continue 1107. It is up to the individual companies to justify our dialogue with the industry and await the EC regulation their charges. review in 2010. 63WH 30 JUNE 2009 Wind Farms (Northamptonshire) 64WH

Wind Farms (Northamptonshire) the potential danger to aircraft. There was also an application for two turbines at the Mercedes-Benz plant in Brixworth, but that was withdrawn because of safety 1.30 pm concerns. There is a proposal for seven wind turbines at Mr. Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): May I place the old RAF Harrington base near Harrington and on record my thanks to Mr. Speaker for permitting me Draughton—the application is due to be considered to introduce this debate on planning applications for soon—and there could be an application for four wind wind farms in Northamptonshire and in particular in turbines at Great Cransley near Mawsley, although my constituency? I welcome the Minister to his place there is question mark over that because of its proximity and I hope that he will take my points on board. to the Sywell aerodrome. There is a proposal for seven wind turbines that would be a staggering 126.5 m tall at I should first say that the debate is not about opposition Kelmarsh. For the uninitiated, Nelson’s column is 52 m to wind farms, although a lot of my constituents do tall and the Northampton lift tower, which is a well oppose them—they do not regard them as the best way known local landmark, is 127 m. The Kelmarsh wind to secure power generation in future, and regard them farm is for seven structures of almost the same height as as unsightly and unwelcome, particularly in areas of the lift tower. There is also a proposal for seven turbines attractive, open countryside. There are also huge doubts between the villages of Rushton and Pipewell, which about the energy efficiency of wind farms, given that would be very close to Kettering. many operate at only a quarter of their potential capacity. The debate is also not about nimbyism. A lot of my The applications are causing widespread unease and constituents are in favour of alternative sources of consternation among my constituents, many of whom power generation and renewable energy. Many like wind are not against renewable energy and are very supportive farms and want to see more of them. Rather, the debate of the existing wind farm at Burton Wold. However, is about coming up with a sensible planning policy for they do not want lots of wind turbines and wind farms the borough of Kettering so that the people of Kettering spread all over their local countryside. At the moment, can play their part in promoting renewable energy without an effective planning policy from the Government to seeing their local countryside covered in a plethora of enable a sensible way forward is absent. wind turbines. We have in the borough of Kettering a wind farm at Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): I very much Burton Wold. There are 10 turbines, which generate agree with the hon. Gentleman, but he should consider 20 MW of electricity.That is enough to power 10,000 homes himself lucky. In Montgomeryshire, we have applications in the borough, which is somewhere between a quarter for more than 700 enormous 450 ft turbines. Leaving and third of the local population. Not everyone is in aside the questionable benefit of such a variable power favour of the Burton Wold wind farm, but many are—it source, does he agree that the Government seem to is fair to say, on balance, that it enjoys popular support enjoy the fashionableness of being seen to act on the from my constituents, in particular from the residents environment, even though that can cause other forms of of Burton Latimer, which is the nearest town. Local environmental damage and disruption, not least that schoolchildren have given each of the turbines a name associated with the tremendous efforts needed for the and the Burton Wold Wind Farm company makes a construction of the turbines? valuable contribution each year to town council funds to help local projects in the community. On balance, it is a very popular wind farm. It is so popular that planning Mr. Hollobone: I have a lot of sympathy for the hon. permission has been granted for it to be extended from Gentleman and his constituents, and the plight and 10 to 17 turbines. It is one of the closest large-scale blight that they face from large-scale wind farms. It wind farms to the capital. seems that the location of wind farms comes down to Under the Government’s current guidelines, much of very site-specific proposals. Sometimes, in areas such as the promotion of wind energy is done through regional Burton Wold, it works; it is popular and it makes sense. spatial strategies. RSS8, for the east midlands, gives the Such facilities can enjoy support not only from the county of Northamptonshire a target for large-scale planning system, but from local people. In other areas, wind farm generating capacity of 12 MW.At one point, such as Montgomeryshire, they might not attract such the draft RSS contained a target to double the 2010 support and would be very unwelcome. I think the target by 2026, but that did not survive into the final Government are being over-prescriptive in forcing through version, as I understand it. The county’s target for wind such a rapid expansion of a technology that, as he generating capacity is 12 MW by next year, but the rightly said, has questionable efficiencies and benefits. existing Burton Wold wind farm already generates 20 MW, The sensible way forward for the north of and if the proposed extension goes ahead—it already Northamptonshire and particularly the area around has permission—it would increase to 34 MW. Kettering is to enable Kettering borough council, of Northamptonshire already generates way above the target which I am pleased to be a member, to draw up a policy set in the RSS but there were, at the last count, 16 new that says, “Yes, we are supportive of renewable energy, applications for wind farms in Northamptonshire, most and we want to see all the local wind farms and turbines of which would be along the A14 corridor between the in Burton Wold.”Ten turbines are there at the moment, A1 and the M1. Not all would be in my constituency, permission has been given for 17 and plans exist with but a considerable proportion would be there. the potential to increase that to 24, which I support. There is a proposal for four wind turbines between That would meet the Government’s targets for expanding Hanging Houghton and Brixworth. Originally, the wind energy in the borough of Kettering, local people application was for six, but two have been withdrawn would support it, we would be doing their bit to green owing to their proximity to the Sywell aerodrome and our country, and it would remove the blight faced by 65WH Wind Farms (Northamptonshire)30 JUNE 2009 Wind Farms (Northamptonshire) 66WH residents of villages in the borough and across 1.44 pm Northamptonshire who face the applications that I have mentioned. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr. Shahid Malik): It is a double pleasure today, Mr. Jones. I congratulate Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): As usual, the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr. Hollobone) on my hon. Friend makes a powerful argument on behalf securing this debate on an interesting and important of the people of his constituency and of north subject that I know is significant to him and a number Northamptonshire. Is he aware that exactly the same of his constituents, as well as to the constituents of feelings are expressed by the people in Wellingborough, other hon. Members here. I am sure that the whole as we are attached to the same planning applications House appreciates the need to address climate change and Sywell airport is in my constituency? It is the fear of even more given the heat wave that we are enjoying. I being forced to have a wind farm in an area where one is visited the hon. Gentleman’s constituency last week, not wanted or suitable that worries my constituents. although not on anybody’s shoulders, and was impressed by the work of David Cook, the chief executive, and the leader of the council, Councillor Jim Hakewill. Mr. Hollobone: That is absolutely right. People are facing an uncomfortable dilemma. They support wind As part of our overall approach to climate change energy, but in the right places and where it makes sense. and renewable energy, the Government attach great People are not being nimbys for the sake of it. There are importance to building a low-carbon UK. On 18 June clearly some places that any common-sense approach 2009, the Environment Secretary announced the launch would say are not suited to wind energy, because that of UK climate projections 2009, a groundbreaking tool blight on the countryside will be there for the next 25 or funded by the Department for Environment, Food and 30 years. How can it make sense to build seven turbines Rural Affairs that will help us understand how the UK’s 127 m tall in the grounds of Kelmarsh hall, one of the climate is likely to alter during the 21st century. most famous stately homes in Northamptonshire? They The Government recognise the need to adjust energy will be there for the next 30 years and will be visible provision to meet challenges. The Climate Change Act 2008 from Northampton, and probably the moon, despoiling made Britain the first country in the world to set legally some of the best countryside in the middle of England, binding carbon budgets, with the aim of cutting UK when just a few miles down the road at Burton Wold is a emissions by 34 per cent. by 2020 and at least 80 per site where, for a number of peculiar reasons, a big wind cent. by 2050 through investment in energy efficiency farm makes sense and enjoys popular support. and clean energy technologies such as renewable, nuclear I anticipate that the Minister will say that there is and carbon capture and storage. room for local authorities to designate places as suitable Power stations generating around 25 per cent. of our sites for wind farms in their local development frameworks. electricity are expected to close by 2018, as they do not That is great if the option actually exists. East comply with European legislation on sulphur dioxide Northamptonshire council is next door to my constituency. and nitrogen oxide emissions. The gap in generation I understand that the council included in its area action will be filled by an increase in renewables over the plan for rural north, part of the council area, a site-specific coming years, including greater generation from both policy on wind farms that the Government office for the offshore and onshore wind. The UK is one of the east midlands and the East Midlands regional assembly windiest countries in Europe, and we need to harness asked it to remove. I understand that the officers of the that clean and renewable energy-generating technology. local council have kept the policy, but they expect that Wind has been the world’s fastest growing renewable when it goes to review, the inspector will find it unduly energy source for the last seven years, and the trend is restrictive. expected to continue due to the falling costs of wind I would like the Minister to say that he will consider energy, energy security threats and the need to address planning policy statement 22, the Government planning climate change. A modern 2.5 MW turbine at a site with guidance on renewable energy, and come back to the suitable conditions generates 6.5 million units of electricity House with a written statement confirming that local each year, enough to meet the annual needs of more authorities will be able to designate areas such as Burton than 1,400 households, make 230 million cups of tea or Wold in their local development frameworks as sites run a computer for 2,250 years. Every unit of electricity suitable for wind farm development that will meet regional from a wind turbine displaces one from conventional and Government wind farm targets and, at the same power stations. In January 2009, wind turbines operating time, enable them to turn down speculative wind farm in the UK had the capacity to prevent the emission of applications in all sorts of other locations. That seems a over 3.5 million tonnes of carbon dioxide a year. sensible policy that would enjoy popular support, get Energy from wind generation will be a key component people behind renewable energy and save many thousands of the changes necessary to create low-carbon energy. of acres of some of the UK’s best countryside from the The hon. Gentleman referred to planning considerations despoiling development that gives renewable energy a for wind farms. All proposals for wind farm development bad name. need to be considered under the planning system at a I do not think that that is too difficult a commitment national, regional and local level, and I will now address for the Minister to make. If he did so, he would be that framework. carried shoulder-high through the streets of Kettering, At the national level, planning policy is set out, as the and I would be one of the people carrying him. Such a hon. Gentleman said, in planning policy statement 22 policy would be very welcome locally and would, I am on renewable energy, published in 2004. Along with its sure, be taken up by local authorities in other parts of more detailed companion guide, it sets out the Government’s the country. guidance on planning and renewable energy. It makes 67WH Wind Farms (Northamptonshire)30 JUNE 2009 Wind Farms (Northamptonshire) 68WH

[Mr. Shahid Malik] Mr. Bone: I am not sure whether the Minister follows my hon. Friend’s argument. The wind farm that crosses specific reference to regional spatial strategies and local our constituencies creates more power than the requirement development documents, stating that they must contain for the whole of Northamptonshire. The rest of the east policies designed to promote and encourage rather than midlands may well not be doing its fair share, but restrict the development of renewable energy resources. Northamptonshire is doing more than its fair share. PPS 22 also states that, at the local level, planning That is the point we are trying to make. authorities should set out the criteria that will be applied in assessing applications for planning permission for Mr. Malik: I think that Northamptonshire should be renewable energy projects. Planning policies that rule applauded for the amount that it does. It stands to out or place constraints on the development of all or reason that we cannot expect each part of each locality specific types of renewable energy technologies should to contribute the same amount to this fight. As the hon. not be included in regional spatial strategies or local Member for Kettering said, some areas are better suited development documents. to this kind of technology. Some people will always feel that they are doing more than their fair share. That is why I am looking at the matter from a regional perspective. Mr. Hollobone: I am listening closely to the Minister’s remarks. I understand that he is following the brief that The spatial strategy for Northamptonshire is was prepared for him and that is quite proper. However, delivered by two joint planning units. There is one I am trying to draw to his attention the specific case of for north Northamptonshire, which covers Kettering, Kettering borough council, which has done far more Wellingborough, east Northamptonshire and Corby, than its fair share by giving planning permission for and one for west Northamptonshire, which covers 34 MW of wind energy when the regional target for the Northampton, Daventry and south Northamptonshire. whole of Northamptonshire is 10 MW.From the statement I turn first to north Northamptonshire. The core spatial that he is reading out word for word, one can understand strategy was adopted in June 2008. It was the first in why there is a bar on Kettering borough council doing England to be adopted, which was an excellent achievement. what it wants. However, would it not make sense to The plan covers the period up to 2021 and sets out the allow the local authority to say, “We are doing more vision and objectives for existing and new communities. than our fair share on this site. We want to expand it It tackles environmental concerns, particularly to do further. Give us the tools to enable us to do that, but to with climate change, and identifies the potential to restrict development elsewhere.”? promote environmental technologies. Policy 14 states that developments should meet the highest viable standards of resource, energy efficiency and reductions Mr. Malik: I will come to the local level shortly. in carbon emissions. The core spatial strategy for west The general principle and rule is that the Government Northamptonshire is currently being developed and it is have no power to prevent applications from coming anticipated that publication for consultation will be in forward. That is critical. Furthermore, the Government November 2009. may intervene in the plan-making process if they consider All the policies I have described provide the context that the constraints being proposed by local authorities against which all proposals for wind farms should be are too great or are poorly justified. The policy also assessed. Local planning authorities should take into states that local planning authorities should not identify account the individual and cumulative effect of wind generalised locations for development based, for example, generation developments and make an assessment at on mean wind speeds because technological developments the planning application stage. However, local planning might mean that additional sites become suitable. authorities should not set arbitrary limits in local The regional spatial strategy for the east midlands development documents on the numbers of turbines was adopted in March 2009. It sets out the long-term that will be acceptable in particular locations. It is a spatial vision and provides the broad development strategy fundamental principle of the planning system that each for the east midlands until 2026. It sets the policy application must be decided on its individual planning framework within which local authority planning merits. documents are prepared. Policy 40 on regional priorities The hon. Member for Kettering mentioned that at for low-carbon energy generation sets out the criteria Burton Latimer, just south of Kettering, there are that local planning authorities should consider for onshore 10 operational wind turbines and there is consent for a wind energy development. The regional spatial strategy further seven turbines on the same site. About 25 per also states: cent. of the homes in Kettering benefit from the energy “Planning authorities should not, however, adopt policies that produced at that site. It will reduce carbon dioxide would in effect impose a blanket ban on on-shore wind energy emissions by 40,000 tonnes per year, which is equivalent projects.” to taking 25,000 cars off the road. That is a phenomenal The east midlands currently lags behind other English achievement. I understand that there are other proposals regions with only 2 per cent. of its energy coming from both in and adjacent to Kettering. However, I am renewable sources. The regional target is for 20 per cent. unable to comment on specific planning applications of energy to come from renewable sources by 2020. The that are currently in the planning system given the regional spatial strategy therefore recognises that there Secretary of State’s potential role. must be a complete change in attitude in planning The Government have made it clear that wind farms practices. Local planning authorities must accept that should be located in appropriate places and that local far more energy generation schemes using innovative concerns should be given appropriate consideration. As renewable technologies must be accepted if renewable I said, the local planning authority considers each proposal energy targets are to be achieved. on its merits and within the policy context. As with 69WH Wind Farms (Northamptonshire)30 JUNE 2009 Wind Farms (Northamptonshire) 70WH other proposals, all commercial renewable energy are important to the Government and the nation in developments are subject to formal planning procedures their overall aims of reducing carbon emissions and that allow all relevant stakeholders, including members energy security. I assure hon. Members that, as with any of the public, to put forward their views on the likely proposed development, individual schemes will have to impact of any proposals on the environment and the submit planning applications. That process allows for local community. full public consultation and robust testing for each application, and they will be decided on according to Mr. Hollobone: There are still a few minutes left. Why their merits. can local councils zone areas for residential and industrial development through planning documents Finally, I thank the hon. Members for Kettering and and local development frameworks, but not for wind for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone) for contributing to this farm development? debate on an issue that is important at a national, regional and local level. It has given me the opportunity Mr. Malik: It is clear that those examples are like to set out the importance of wind farms within the apples and pears; the two cannot be compared. Having wider challenge of increasing our ability to produce said that, I do not suppose that that could not happen, energy from renewable sources. but we do not do it currently. There are good reasons Question put and agreed to. for that. Like most other planning applications, wind farm proposals are a matter for local determination. However, 1.59 pm renewable energy and the development of wind farms Sitting adjourned.

7WS Written Ministerial Statements30 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 8WS

However, there are significant drawbacks in a national Written Ministerial system for financing council housing and in the relationship it creates between central and local government. Statements Our consultation following this review will propose a devolved self-financing alternative to the current system. This would remove the need to redistribute revenue Tuesday 30 June 2009 nationally, while continuing to ensure that all councils had sufficient resources. With these reforms, councils would finance their own businesses from their own rents, in exchange for a one-off redistribution of housing TREASURY debt. By freeing councils from the annual funding decisions in the current system, this will enable councils to plan long-term and to improve the management of their UK and IMF 2007 and 2008 homes, secure greater efficiencies and improve the quality of service to their tenants. This would provide councils with a financial framework The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Alistair Darling): in which they could plan and manage for the long-term I am today publishing the ninth report to Parliament on in the same way we expect of other social housing UK operations at the IMF “The UK and the IMF 2007 providers. It would give councils a greater capacity and and 2009”—Responding to global economic challenges”. more freedom to respond to local needs and, in doing Copies have been deposited I the Libraries of both so, increase their responsibility and accountability to Houses. local tenants and residents. Change on this scale is complex and will require primary legislation. The consultation will set out how COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT moving to a self-financing system will require an adjustment of debt levels for most authorities. At present around £17 billion of housing debt with annual servicing costs of around £l.1 billion is spread across the 202 councils Housing in the system. The self-financing model would enable each council to manage directly and fund their own debt. The Minister for Housing (John Healey): I intend to publish a consultation document before the summer In addition to revenue redistribution, councils are recess on reform of council housing finance. My intention currently required to pay Government different proportions is to dismantle the housing revenue account subsidy of the receipts from right to buy sales and sales of other system and replace it with a devolved system of HRA assets. There is a strong case for allowing councils responsibility and funding. However, I can confirm to to retain all of their capital receipts which could give the House today the principles on which this will be councils the ability to develop a comprehensive strategy based. to maintain, improve and develop their housing. The consultation document will therefore set out proposals I want to provide more flexibility in finances and to end the pooling of all housing capital receipts. more transparency in the operation of the system. I want to devolve control from central to local government. I want to see councils building and commissioning And, in return, I want to increase local responsibility more of the new homes that people need in their area. and accountability for long-term planning, asset We are therefore taking immediate steps to support this management, and for meeting the housing needs of role for local authorities, based on the same principles I local people. The current system makes this difficult to am setting out for our long-term reforms. achieve. For the first time, councils can now access the same On 12 December 2007, my predecessor as Housing capital subsidy through the social housing grant that is Minister announced to the House a review of council provided to housing associations for new affordable housing finance to be led jointly by my Department and homes. Decisions on the first council schemes to be the Treasury. Its purpose was to identify options for a funded in this way will be confirmed in September. sustainable, long-term system for financing council housing At the Budget, we announced £100 million to fund that would be fair to both tenants and taxpayers. some 900 new council homes. Yesterday, in his Housing The review has been conducted with a wide range of Pledge, the Prime Minister announced a further £1.5 billion interested and expert organisations through meetings to build an extra 20,000 affordable and energy efficient and workshops, calls for evidence, focus groups and homes, increasing the scale of the programme for the questionnaires. Research and analysis were commissioned next two years to a £2.1 billion investment for 110,000 internally and from external experts. new affordable homes. This includes a four-fold increase There is a clear rationale for the current redistributive in our plans for new council homes. Together, these housing revenue account subsidy system. Councils have changes will enable councils to become once again different spending needs and different capacities to significant providers of new housing, with further flexibility raise income. Without redistribution, some councils to do more, where councils can act rapidly and offer would have to charge higher rents or deliver lower good value for money. quality services. By redistributing money, all councils We want to maximise our efforts behind building of should be able to deliver a similar level of service while new affordable homes. So I can also confirm that we are charging a similar level of rent. closing the open market homebuy scheme to new applicants 9WS Written Ministerial Statements30 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 10WS and in future our low cost home ownership programme However, there are steps we can take without delay. will be directed to schemes which support new build So I am announcing that from today we will exclude all homes. new build council housing from the HRA subsidy system Tenants and council tax payers expect to see their which means that councils will retain in full the rent and services delivered with the very best value for money. I capital receipts from these homes. want to ensure that our reforms to the council housing I will work with all those with an interest in improving finance system have strong incentives for improving the system to make sure that these plans for reform are efficiency, which will benefit councils and their tenants robust and deliverable. We remain committed to completing our comprehensive decent homes programme and to maintaining this standard. The reforms I propose will safeguard this commitment. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Capital funding will be provided to support this. We also intend to complete improvements required to common areas of estates and will ensure that there is sufficient Health and Safety Executive’s Nuclear Directorate funding in the system to maintain them in the future. (Restructuring) Our aim in setting up the self-financing system is to ensure that it delivers the investment needed to sustain and maintain the existing stock of council homes. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy In the future within this self-financing system, local and Climate Change (Mr. David Kidney): My noble authorities may also wish to borrow to fund investment. Friend the Minister of State for Energy and Climate Government are currently considering whether and how Change today made the following statement: any local flexibilities for new investment could be reconciled My noble Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary at the with the need to ensure that the overall fiscal position Department for Work and Pensions with responsibility for health for Government is not undermined. and safety, Lord Mckenzie, and I are today launching a consultation on our proposed restructuring of the Health and Safety Executive’s The benefits delivered by arm’s length management Nuclear Directorate. organisations that manage council housing services should The proposed restructuring is designed to reinvigorate the not be affected by a change in the system for financing organisational arrangements of nuclear regulation to take account council housing. We see a strong future role for ALMOs of current and future challenges in the nuclear environment. The which are valued by their tenants. We would expect restructuring will consolidate regulatory functions currently carried ALMOs to continue to develop their housing management out by separate parts of Government into a new, sector specific capacity and to look for opportunities to extend the regulatory body that will have greater autonomy than at present range of services they offer, including to other landlords, but remain within the auspices of HSE. The Government propose to effect the restructuring through a Legislative Reform Order. where this would improve efficiency and effectiveness. The regulator would be named in legislation as responsible for Transferring to a housing association should also its regulatory functions, which at the moment lie either with the remain an option that council tenants can choose. There Secretary of State or the HSE. The new body will be governed by are potential benefits from bringing in a not-for-profit an independent board comprising of predominantly non-executive body with access to private finance to own and manage members. For the first time the position of chief inspector would the homes. However, there should be equity in the terms become a statutory office, preserving the independence of regulatory of public funding whether they are transferred or retained decision making. The Government believe that these measures in the future under self-financing. The value placed on will enhance the transparency and accountability of nuclear the stock in a self-financing agreement and a transfer regulation overall. deal will be based on delivering the same standards of These proposals for reform seek to build on the existing regulatory strengths, while creating a modern organisation that is service at a comparable cost. empowered to meet the challenges of the changing nuclear We will continue to work with councils whose tenants environment; creating a regulator that is widely acclaimed for its have voted for transfer and councils who are currently excellence in this new environment, and can maintain its world-class developing transfer proposals to bring these to completion. reputation into the future. Future transfer proposals will not gain any financial The consultation will close on 22 September 2009 and will be support beyond what would be provided under self- followed by a Government response. financing. A number of councils have been developing proposals to establish Local Housing Companies (LHCs) that ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS combine public land and private finance to deliver new mixed tenure housing. Current market conditions create difficulties in taking the next steps, and the consultation Dairy Farmers of Britain document will confirm how we will assist the establishment of viable LHCs as quickly as possible. In future, self- financing will provide another option for councils who The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and want to put their land and income into schemes to Rural Affairs (Hilary Benn): I wish to update the House deliver new housing. on recent developments related to Dairy Farmers of Responses to the review showed strong support for a Britain. more devolved approach to financing council housing. I informed the House in my written statement of A fully self-financing locally devolved system cannot 9 June 2009, Official Report, column 31WS, that on be implemented in a single step but I want to move as 3 June PricewaterhouseCoopers had been appointed as rapidly as possible to put these reforms in place and the receivers and managers of Dairy Farmers of Britain consultation document will set out my proposed timetable. Ltd (DFoB). In the debate on Food, Farming and the 11WS Written Ministerial Statements30 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 12WS

Environment on 18 June 2009, Official Report, column 480, There will be significant benefits to individuals from I reported that new buyers had been found for 96 per holding an identity card which will become the most cent. of the milk, leaving fewer than 200 of the 1,800 convenient, secure and affordable way of asserting identity farmers affected yet to find an alternative milk buyer. A in everyday life. Identity cards will also be valid for further 47 farmers secured new buyers before the end travel throughout Europe in place of a British passport. of last week. I have reviewed the plans for introducing identity Throughout this time DEFRA officials and the Regional cards to the wider public and have decided to accelerate Development Agencies have worked closely with the the roll out of cards by extending the initial coverage receiver, the DFoB Members Council and with many from Greater Manchester to other locations in the other parties whether those affected or those offering North-West early next year. Anyone resident first in support. All parties have worked to find new buyers for Greater Manchester and then in the wider areas to be all the remaining farmers as quickly as possible. specified will be entitled to apply for an identity card. On 26 June the receiver and Milk Link announced Initially this will be through Identity and Passport that all 143 farmers who were on short-term rolling Service Offices based in central Manchester and at contracts with the receiver at that time were being Manchester airport. offered a contract with Milk Link. This would be for a three-month rolling contract paying a standard litre Precise arrangements for the extension of the roll-out price of 18.45 pence per litre. Some farmers started to are being developed, but will include the extension of sign up to these contracts over the weekend. identity card enrolment to other Identity and Passport Service offices in North-West England. There will be a I welcome this initiative by Milk Link which, by particular focus on issuing identity cards at a fee of £30 making use of economies of scale and Milk Link’s to those who will most benefit, particularly young people. existing infrastructure, has enabled them to offer these farmers significantly more than the 10p per litre being The Government are committed to providing real offered by the receiver, although whether that price is help now to people in these difficult economic times. commercially viable for individual farmers is a matter Those over 75 are particularly affected and as a consequence for them to determine. DEFRA will continue to work the Government will also be looking at options which with other parties to ensure affected farmers know how could allow pensioners aged 75 and over to receive an to access advice, including advice funded by the Rural identity card free of charge. These identity cards will Development Agencies through the Rural Development assist in asserting identity and will enable travel throughout Programme England (RDPE) where appropriate. Europe I would like again to pay tribute to the hard work of The Government already have arrangements in hand the many individuals and organisations who have for the production of identity cards. Later this year, and contributed to ensuring that no milk has been thrown subject to the normal procurement processes, a further away since the collapse of DFoB and that all farmer contract will be signed to cover production of cards for members of DFoB have now been offered a contract the medium term. We are currently engaged in negotiations with a new milk buyer. to ensure the best value for money. We now have a much I will update the House as necessary. clearer view of our costs in the future as we have entered into 10-year contracts to upgrade the Identity and Passport Service’s application and enrolment system Marine and Fisheries Agency (Annual Report and and build and run the database that will support passports Accounts) and identity cards. At the same time, we will continue to look at ways of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for reducing costs across both passport and identity card Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Huw Irranca-Davies): work. A further “Cost Report” on the estimated costs The 2008-09 annual report and accounts for the Marine of the identity cards scheme over the next 10 years will and Fisheries Agency will be laid before Parliament be made to Parliament in the autumn. However, the today. expectation is that the costs specifically relating to identity cards will be less than the 30 per cent. of the total costs of the National Identity Scheme previously estimated. HOME DEPARTMENT However, holding an identity card should be a personal choice for British citizens—just as it is now to obtain a passport. Accordingly, I want the introduction of identity Identity and Passport Service cards for all British citizens to be voluntary and I have therefore decided that identity cards issued to airside workers, planned initially at Manchester and London The Secretary of State for the Home Department City airports later this year, should also be voluntary. I (Alan Johnson): I am pleased to announce today the continue to believe that identity cards will help deliver next steps in the implementation of the National Identity enhanced security in the airside pass-issuing process at Service. This started with the introduction of identity airports by making it easier and more certain to verify cards for foreign nationals in November 2008 and will an individual’s identity. In consultation with the airport continue later this year with the introduction of the first operators, we will be encouraging anyone applying for identity cards for British citizens including the roll out an airside pass to obtain an identity card. There will be of voluntary identity cards at a fee of £30 to people significant benefits from a large proportion of airside living in the Greater Manchester area. pass holders having their identity verified and being 13WS Written Ministerial Statements30 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 14WS issued with identity cards. We have listened to what the NORTHERN IRELAND unions, airlines and others in the aviation sector have had to say about our plans and as a result we will now seek to achieve these results by inviting applications to Youth Justice Agency of Northern Ireland (Corporate be made on a voluntary basis. Plan and Business Plan) The Government will, therefore, be withdrawing the Identity Cards Act 2006 (Designation) Order 2009 which The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Paul was laid before Parliament on 6 May 2009. This would Goggins): I have placed copies of the “Youth Justice have made it a requirement for anyone applying for a Agency’s Corporate Plan for 2009-11” and “Business criminal conviction certificate, as part of the process for Plan for 2009-10” in the Libraries of both Houses. obtaining an airside pass to access the restricted area at The Business Plan contains 14 key performance targets a specified airport, also to obtain an identity card. I have set for the agency for 2009-10. These are: 85 per cent. of youth conference reports completed within The Government believe that effective identity assurance statutory requirements. is the foundation stone of a good personnel security regime in airports and elsewhere and that is why we will At least 85 per cent. of referrals to result in a youth conference and of those, at least 80 per cent. of young offenders to be be offering identity cards to those working airside in satisfied with the process. our airports from later this year. Achieve a victim attendance rate of at least 60 per cent. for In December 2007, Stephen Boys Smith was youth conferences and of those, at least 80 per cent. of victims to be satisfied with the process. commissioned by the Transport Secretary to conduct an independent external review of personnel security 90 per cent. of young people remanded to the Juvenile Justice Centre for one week or more to have a bail assessment commenced arrangements in the UK transport industry. His key within five working days. conclusion was that effective personnel security starts 90 per cent. of young people under community supervision with identity and that identity cards would play a useful complete their orders. addition to identity assurance at airports and elsewhere All young people referred to the agency under statutory orders in the transport industry. We continue to believe that to have their risk of offending and other needs assessed and this is correct and that identity cards will provide and appropriate plans developed. help with enhanced security but we believe that compulsion All young people under a Juvenile Justice Centre Order (JJCO) would be counter-productive given the need to ensure leaving custody will have a reintegration plan in place for the the right environment for their introduction. statutory supervision period within the community. We believe the evaluation of identity cards for airside No escapes from within the Juvenile Justice Centre. workers will demonstrate the benefits that identity cards Maintain a rate of restraints within the upper quartile of the can bring to the pre-employment and airside pass issuing best performing similar-sized secure centres in England and Wales. processes at Manchester and London airports and that these benefits will encourage airside workers to apply All children in custody for seven days or more to be screened for mental health needs and, where necessary, referred on to for an identity card. We will continue to work with the appropriate services. aviation industry to agree the ongoing roll out of personal identity cards to airside workers, so these process Maintain level of expenditure within approved budgetary limits. improvements can also benefit others. Publish and lay audited and unqualified 2008-09 annual report and accounts before Parliament prior to its summer recess. For foreign nationals (from outside the European Achieve Investors in People re-accreditation. Economic Area), compulsory identity cards will play an At least 80 per cent. of staff to confirm that their essential increasingly important part in the delivery of an effective learning and development needs are being met to a satisfactory immigration policy and for proving identity and entitlement level. to work. Therefore I have asked the UK Border Agency to look at how it can speed up the rollout of identity cards for Foreign Nationals including to foreign national TRANSPORT airside workers.

A further five Statutory Instruments under the Olympic Route Network Designation Order 2009 Identity Cards Act 2006 have also been laid before Parliament. These will now be brought before the House for approval. These will be required to allow for The Minister of State, Department for Transport the start of the issue of identity cards on a voluntary (Mr. Sadiq Khan): The “Olympic Route Network basis in the autumn. Designation Order 2009” has today been laid before I am determined to ensure that there is proper oversight Parliament. The Order comes into force on 22 July 2009. of the way the National Identity Service is introduced The Order lists the roads that are to form the Olympic in order to build public trust. We will shortly be announcing Route Network (ORN)—a network of roads between the appointment of the independent Identity Commissioner. venues and accommodation to be used during the 2012 I will also be introducing a Public Panel, made up from Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (“the Games”) people from different regions, to ensure that the views by vehicles carrying the athletes, officials and media—the of the public are properly reflected and to help us Games Family—who are at the heart of the games. develop an identity rights charter. All of this work will London committed in its bid and in the host city fit within our strategy for safeguarding identity across contract for the games to have an ORN. This was Government. because the lessons and experience of previous host 15WS Written Ministerial Statements30 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 16WS cities is that this is the most effective way to provide the on the design, implementation and operation of the safe, secure and reliable transport for athletes, officials traffic management measures to be applied on the ORN and media between venues and accommodation that is roads during the games. critical to the games’ success. The Government’s objectives for the ORN are to meet the Games Family’s needs while at the same time WORK AND PENSIONS minimising the impact on residents, businesses and visitors to ensure London and the rest of the UK are Departmental Report kept moving. The laying of this Order follows consideration of the responses received to the Department for Transport’s The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Yvette consultation between December 2008 and March 2009 Cooper): I am today able to announce the publication of on the roads to be included in the ORN. A full report the Department for Work and Pensions departmental on the consultation responses and the Government’s report. response will be available on the Department for Transport’s The report is the Department’s first annual report website at: www.dft.gov.uk and in the Libraries of both under CSR2007 and provides details of the Department’s Houses. A number of changes have been made to the performance in 2008-09 within the context of the economic roads in the ORN in the light of those responses. The downturn. Government’s response also sets out the Olympic Delivery The report will be available on the Department’s Authority’s plans, starting this summer, to engage and website today and copies are available in the Vote consult with residents, businesses and other stakeholders Office.

119W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 120W

costs have not yet been identified separately for individual Written Answers to venues, but they will form part of the overall security and transport budgets. Questions

Tuesday 30 June 2009 ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Carbon Emissions: Housing

OLYMPICS Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many grant applications for Olympic Games 2012: Facilities funding were received by the Low Carbon Buildings programme in respect of projects in (a) schools, (b) Bob Spink: To ask the Minister for the Olympics hospitals and (c) other public buildings in (i) the East what her most recent estimate is of the cost of hosting of England and (ii) Castle Point in each year since the the London 2012 Olympic tennis events at Wimbledon. scheme’s inception. [281855] [281644] Joan Ruddock: The following number of grant Tessa Jowell: The London Organising Committee of applications for funding were received by the Low Carbon the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (LOCOG) Buildings programme in respect of projects in (a) schools, has responsibility for staging the Olympic and Paralympic (b) hospitals and (c) other public buildings in (i) the games at existing venues. The direct costs associated East of England region and (ii) Castle Point in each with staging the events at existing venues come from year since the scheme’s inception. LOCOG’s revenues which are primarily derived from Low Carbon Buildings Programme—Phase 1 commercial sponsorship, broadcast rights, ticket sales and merchandising/licensing—not from the public purse. East of England There will be attributable costs to the public purse, (Communities and Stream 2 A) for example in respect of the security and transport Applications received (including withdrawn, rejected, functions associated with the venue. However these expired)

2006 2007 Organisation July August September November January March April June September Total

Hospital 11 School 1 1 1 1 3 7 Other 1 2 1 4 1 3 3 3 18 Total12314233726

Castle Point many civil servants in each pay band have worked on We are unable to check results at local borough level. that consultation. [282020] However, applications under all streams of phase 1 have been checked against the towns in the following table Joan Ruddock: The consultation in question sought which make up the local borough area, and no applications views on a definition of the term ‘carbon neutral’ and were submitted (Convey Island, Benfleet, Thundersley on practical guidance on applying the definition, including and Hadleigh). recommendations on what constitutes good practice. There were no applications from Castle Point. Departmental expenditure on the consultation related to administration costs only. Salary costs have been Low Carbon Buildings Programme—Phase 2 estimated at between £35,000 and £40,000. Work on the East of England consultation was carried out by one official in pay range D with a small amount of support from staff at pay Organisation 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 Total ranges C and H. Other costs relate solely to stationery Hospital — 2 — 2 and are estimated at less than £50. School 24 42 5 71 Other public 10 12 4 26 buildings Departmental Billing There were no applications from Castle Point. Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer Carbon Emissions: Standards of 18 May 2009, Official Report, column 1115W, on departmental billing, how much his Department’s Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for non-departmental public bodies have paid in interest Energy and Climate Change how much his under the Late Payment of Commercial Debts Department has spent under each budget heading on (Interest) Act 1998 since his Department was its consultation on the term carbon neutral; and how established. [282324] 121W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 122W

Joan Ruddock: The Nuclear Decommissioning Authority Joan Ruddock: DECC does not currently have a are unable to separately identify interest paid under the central system for monitoring internships. However, a Act since DECC was created due to systems constraints. trawl of all directorates has revealed that there are None of the Department’s other non-departmental public currently no paid or unpaid graduate internships in the bodies have paid interest under the Act. Department.

Departmental Data Protection Electric Cables

Mr. Blunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Mr. Swire: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many breaches of and Climate Change (1) what recent assessment he has information security there have been at his Department made of the costs and benefits of placing underground since its creation. [281096] (a) new and (b) existing electricity transmission lines; [282406] Joan Ruddock: There have been no breaches of (2) when his Department last assessed the need to information security in the Department. retain all parts of the overhead electricity transmission The Department and its agencies will report all significant and distribution network; and if he will make a personal data security breaches to the Cabinet Office statement. [282414] and the ICO. Information on any personal data security breaches are published on an annual basis in the Mr. Kidney: Any such assessments are a matter for Department’s annual resource accounts as was announced Ofgem and the network operators and would be carried in the Data Handling Review published on 25 June out as part of the price control review mechanism 2008. through which the transmission and distribution network Additionally, all significant control weaknesses including companies are regulated. other significant security breaches are included in the Energy Supply Statement of Internal Control which is published within the annual resource accounts. Mr. Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what meetings he and other Departmental Energy Ministers in his Department have had with (a) Ofgem, (b) energy suppliers and (c) energy consumer groups Greg Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy or representatives since October 2008 in the last and Climate Change what recent progress his 12 months. [283278] Department has made towards the target of increasing its energy efficiency per square metre of its Estate by Mr. Kidney: In order to inform the development and 15 per cent. by 2010, relative to 1999-2000 levels; and if support delivery of policy the Secretary of State and he will make a statement. [266881] Ministers have met on a regular basis with a broad range of companies, interest groups and the regulator Mr. Kidney: Since DECC’s inception, BERR and since the creation of DECC in October 2008. DEFRA manage the Department’s estate. Given that, I refer the hon. Member to the answers given by my hon. Energy: Consumers Friend the Minister for Natural and Marine Environment, Wildlife and Rural Affairs on 20 April 2009, Official Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Report, column 84W,and by my hon. Friend the Minister and Climate Change what research his Department has for Employment Relations and Postal Affairs at the (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated on the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory relationship between consumer awareness of energy Reform on 20 April 2009, Official Report, columns efficiency and consumer behaviour adopting energy- 401-02W. efficiency practices. [282603] DECC has identified and is implementing a number of measures aimed at increasing energy efficiency at its Joan Ruddock: DECC takes account of externally HQ, in line with Good Practice Guide 286—Energy available research about consumer awareness of energy Performance in the Government’s Civil Estate. use and energy efficiency and effects on behaviour, in order to inform its policy development. Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for DECC is co-funding the Energy Demand Research Energy and Climate Change how much (a) electricity Project, which is enabling the Government, energy suppliers and (b) gas was used (i) on his Department’s estate and others to test through a variety of interventions and (ii) by his Department’s agencies in each year from how electricity and gas customers respond to better its inception to 2008-09. [280514] information about their consumption. The project explores the impact on energy consumption and energy efficiency Joan Ruddock: As at 30 March 2009 the Department of smart meters in combination with awareness raising used approximately 1,066,912 kWh of electricity and tools including real-time display devices and additional 570,944 kWh of gas since its inception. This is based on billing information, as well as the provision of energy average daily usage. DECC has no agencies. efficiency information and community engagement.

Departmental Work Experience Entec UK

Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for and Climate Change how many (a) paid and (b) Energy and Climate Change what the (a) purpose and unpaid graduate internships his Department has (b) monetary value is of each contract his Department awarded in each of the last six months. [281515] has with Entec UK environmental consultants. [280356] 123W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 124W

Joan Ruddock: DECC has two contracts with Entec: the following table. These waiting times are within the (a) Appraisal of Sustainability of five energy National Planning Department’s contractual guidelines, which state that Statements (a requirement of the Planning Act 2008) and heating measures will be installed within 120 days of (b) Strategic Environmental Assessment of the Framework for survey and insulation measures within 40 days. the Development of Clean Coal (a requirement of Directive 2001/42/EC—the ‘Strategic Environmental Assessment’ directive). 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

The value of both of these contracts is considered Heating commercially sensitive. Installation 66.0 days 81.9 days 63.8 days 64.7 days Mike Anderson Insulation Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for Installation 28.2 days 32.7 days 27.4 days 35.8 days Energy and Climate Change what position Mike Anderson holds within his Department. [281307]

Joan Ruddock: Mike Anderson no longer holds a CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT position in the Department. Digital Broadcasting: Derbyshire Nuclear Power Stations Mr. McLoughlin: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Culture, Media and Sport how much funding has been and Climate Change what timetable he has set for the allocated for broadcasting in West Derbyshire to confirmation of planning permissions for the next implement proposals contained in the Digital Britain generation of nuclear power stations. [280647] White Paper. [283197]

Mr. Kidney: The Office for Nuclear Development has Mr. Simon: The White Paper sets out various proposals published an indicative timeline for the new nuclear in respect of broadcasting. The Government will shortly build programme on their website. It sets out at a be consulting on how to secure and fund essential strategic level how the key parts of the new nuclear public service content and it is too early to say how this programme fit together. will be allocated or which regions may benefit. The timeline shows we expect to publish and consult National Lottery: Merseyside on the draft Nuclear National Policy Statement (NPS) in the autumn of this year. We expect the Nuclear NPS to be designated in the spring of next year and the IPC Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State will be ready to receive applications shortly after this. for Culture, Media and Sport what proportion of Lottery funding has been allocated to organisations in The indicative timeline can be viewed at: (a) Merseyside and (b) Crosby in each of the last five http://www.berr.gov.uk/energy/sources/nuclear/index.html years; and which organisations received such funding. Radioactive Fallout: Exemptions [282524] Mr. Simon: The following table shows the value of Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for lottery grants awarded to organisations in Merseyside Energy and Climate Change if he will allocate funds to and Crosby in the same years, along with the total pay the subsistence and accommodation expenses of amount of lottery grants awarded in the last five years. the expert stakeholders invited to attend the workshop Merseyside is taken to be the boroughs of Knowsley, on proposals for a future exemptions regime under Liverpool, St. Helens, Sefton and Wirral. the Radioactive Substances Act 1993 and draft

Environmental Permitting Regulations 2010, to be held £ in Manchester on 9 July. [282434] 2004-05 Mr. Kidney: The Department will reimburse reasonable Total lottery money awarded 1,631,700,181 travel costs and will consider accommodation costs on a Total lottery money to Merseyside 40,285,448 case by case basis. The timing and location of the Total lottery money to Crosby 350,989 workshop has been chosen to help stakeholders participate from across the UK. 2005-06 Warm Front Scheme Total lottery money awarded 1,249,237,162 Total lottery money to Merseyside 21,783,707 Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Total lottery money to Crosby 155,174 Energy and Climate Change what the average waiting time between successful application to the Warm Front 2006-07 scheme and the installation of the efficiency measures Total lottery money awarded 969,785,678 was in each year since the scheme was established. Total lottery money to Merseyside 31,383,133 [266158] Total lottery money to Crosby 123,348

Joan Ruddock [holding answer 24 March 2009]: The 2007-08 average waiting times since the start of the current Total lottery money awarded 1,550,673,214 Scheme in 2005 until 28 February 2009 are detailed in 125W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 126W

Departmental Recruitment £

Total lottery money to Merseyside 23,624,868 Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Total lottery money to Crosby 649,309 Northern Ireland whether it is his policy to seek to increase the number of Catholic staff in his 2008-09 Department. [282290] Total lottery money awarded 920,814,373 Total lottery money to Merseyside 20,194,869 Mr. Woodward: All appointments to the Northern Total lottery money to Crosby 127,807 Ireland Office (NIO) are made on merit. The Northern Ireland Office’s Diversity Delivery Plan These statistics have been prepared using the 2008-10 includes: Department’s lottery grants database. The database is “Our aim is to ensure that representation of Protestants and searchable at: Catholics in the NIO is comparable to the wider NI civil service.” www.lottery.culture.gov.uk The plan highlights the fact that Catholic representation and uses information on lottery grants supplied by the has continued to make steady progress from 25 per cent. lottery distributors. in 1997 to 35 per cent. in 2008. I have arranged for a list to be placed in the Libraries of both Houses of organisations in Merseyside and Departmental Training Crosby that received lottery awards in those years. Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what training courses have been NORTHERN IRELAND attended by special advisers in his Department in the last 12 months; and at what cost. [279394] Departmental Billing Mr. Woodward: In the past 12 months the Northern Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State Ireland Office special advisers have not attended any for Northern Ireland pursuant to the answer of 20 May training courses. 2009, Official Report, column 1411W, on departmental billing, how much his Department’s non-departmental Northern Ireland Act 2009 public bodies spent in interest under the Late Payment of Commercial Debts (Interest) Act 1998 in the last Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for three years. [282330] Northern Ireland how many letters his Department Mr. Woodward: This is an operational matter for the received (a) in favour and (b) against the Northern non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) of the Northern Ireland Bill of Session 2008-09 before its enactment. Ireland Office, which operate independently of Government. [282292] I would encourage the hon. Gentleman to write to the NDPB chief executives. Mr. Woodward: The Northern Ireland Office did not A list of these NDPBs is available on page 7 of the receive any letters either in favour or against the Northern Northern Ireland Office departmental report, published Ireland Act 2009 before it was enacted. in June 2009. Parades Departmental Energy Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what recent discussions he has had Northern Ireland which official is responsible for the with the Parades Commission on parades to take place energy efficiency of his Department’s estate. [280552] on 12 July 2009. [282301]

Mr. Woodward: The Director of Resources, Anthony Mr. Woodward: I hold regular discussions with the Harbinson, takes responsibility for sustainable development Parades Commission on a range of parades related matters, including energy efficiency. matters, including forthcoming parades. The Parades Departmental Internet Commission remains the final arbiter of parades and is independent of Government. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how much has been spent on the maintenance of his Departmental website in each year since 2007. [282275] WORK AND PENSIONS

Paul Goggins: The cost of maintaining the Northern Business: Government Assistance Ireland Office website (www.nio.gov.uk) is detailed in the following table. Mr. Hoban: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Northern Ireland Office website maintenance costs and Pensions pursuant to her Department’s press £ notice of 6 April 2009, on recruitment and training subsidies, how many businesses have received a 2008-09 4,227 recruitment subsidy; and how many individuals have 2007-08 4,308 returned to employment as a result. [274247] 127W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 128W

Jim Knight: The recruitment subsidy was introduced obligations arising from EU legislation in the latest on 6 April 2009 and data are only starting to feed period for which figures are available. [281858] through. The Department is working to guidelines set by the UK Statistics Authority to ensure we are able to Jim Knight: To date during the 2008-09 session, the publish statistics that meet high quality standards at Department has been responsible for 61 Statutory the earliest opportunity. We intend to publish official Instruments and two Government Bills (including six statistics from autumn 2009. S.I.s from the Health and Safety Executive), some of which consolidated and revoked previous instruments. Carers Benefits: Pensioners The Department estimates that around 5 per cent. of these (three Statutory Instruments, including one from Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Work the Health and Safety Executive) give effect to and Pensions what estimate she has made of the obligations arising from EU legislation. number of people of pensionable age who are eligible for carers allowance but disqualified because of the Electronic Government: Operating Costs overlapping benefit rule; and what the estimated cost is of paying the allowance to them. [280496] Adam Afriyie: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how much Directgov has cost in each Jonathan Shaw: The number of people over state year since its inception. [282044] pension age who are entitled to carer’s allowance but not receiving any payment because of the overlapping Jim Knight: The costs for Directgov in each financial benefit rule is 362,350. The estimated maximum annual year since 2004 are set out in the following table: cost of paying carer’s allowance to pensioners who are subject to the overlap is around £1 billion. Financial year £ million Notes: 2004-05 5.1 1. This estimate does not include people who do not make a claim for carer’s allowance, as we have no way of calculating how 2005-06 10.5 many there are. 2006-07 12.8 2. It should be noted that unless major changes to rules on how 2007-08 13.9 carer’s allowance is treated within pension credit were to be 2008-09 30.7 introduced, the overall Exchequer cost of such a measure would be smaller due to the offsetting reduction in pension credit Employment Schemes expenditure.

Departmental Data Protection Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) what funding she has allocated for the Mr. Blunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Work implementation of progression to work pathfinders; and Pensions how many breaches of information [255131] security there have been at (a) her Department and (2) from what source funding for the implementation (b) its agencies in the last five years. [281063] of the progression to work pathfinders will come; [255132] Jim Knight: I refer the hon. Member to the written (3) how many additional jobcentre staff are planned answer I gave to the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, to implement the progression to work pathfinders. Badenoch and Strathspey (Danny Alexander), on 23 [255133] June 2009, Official Report, columns 815W-16W. Jim Knight: The impact assessment associated with Departmental Food the White Paper ‘Raising Expectations and Increasing Support—reforming welfare for the future’ estimated Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Work that the increase in work-focused interviews and and Pensions what percentage of the (a) meat, (b) provision to support work and skills-related activity fruit and (c) vegetables procured by her Department in could cost up to an extra £20 million a year for parents the last 12 months was produced in the UK. [281936] with younger children. For employment and support allowance customers we are assessing the appropriate Jim Knight: The Department has a contract for the balance between provision of the service by Jobcentre provision of fully serviced accommodation with Plus and providers. Additional costs will be met from Telereal Trillium which includes catering and food within the current agreed Department spending plans. procurement. Annually, 63 per cent. of meat, 33 per A cadre of skilled and capable personal advisers will cent. of fruit (100 per cent. when seasonably available) be absolutely essential to effectively implement the and 62 per cent. of vegetables procured by the Progression to Work model. Our discussion document Department’s supplier is produced in the UK. ‘Realising Potential: developing personalised conditionality and support’ made clear that that it will EC Law be necessary to think through the implications for the adviser role and implement a work force development Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Work strategy for Jobcentre Plus staff. This is an issue we will and Pensions what estimate she has made of the discuss in detail with stakeholders. Until pathfinder proportion of statutory obligations provided for by locations are decided final decisions cannot be made on legislation on matters for which her Department is the number of personal advisers necessary to deliver responsible which were introduced as a consequence of the Progression to Work pathfinders. 129W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 130W

Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Department for Work and Pensions put in place extra and Pensions how many firms her Department has support for newly unemployed customers of all ages, made payments to under the employers’ golden hello including information and advice about the latest job scheme since the scheme’s inception; and how many search techniques and coaching on how to make the employees have been recruited under the scheme. most of transferable skills. Extra help for those who [278304] have been claiming jobseeker’s allowance for six months was also introduced, including opportunities to Jim Knight: The recruitment subsidy was introduced volunteer, support to become self-employed, on 6 April 2009 as part of the six-month offer of extra recruitment subsidies and work-focused training. support for jobseekers and data are only starting to Since last autumn, the Department has also feed through. The Department is working to guidelines quadrupled the available funding for the Rapid set by the UK Statistics Authority to ensure we are able Response Service, which provides advice and support to publish statistics that meet high quality standards at to customers facing redundancy. It has also extended the earliest opportunity. We intend to publish Official Local Employment Partnerships, the Adviser Statistics from autumn 2009. Discretion Fund and Access to Work so they are available to customers from the first day of their claim, Employment Schemes: Greater Manchester alongside the support they receive from their Jobcentre Plus personal adviser. This help is available to Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for customers of all ages to ensure that everyone has the Work and Pensions what steps her Department is best possible chance of finding work. taking to increase the number of people aged (a) over The introduction of the Flexible New Deal across 50 years and (b) between 18 and 25 years in Phase 1 areas from October 2010 will give providers the employment in (i) Tameside, (ii) Stockport and (iii) freedom to offer personalised, tailored support to Greater Manchester. [277499] everyone who has been claiming jobseeker’s allowance for 12 months, helping them overcome their individual Jim Knight: The Government are committed to barriers to work. Greater Manchester East and West giving everyone the support they need to find and Greater Manchester Central districts are included employment as quickly as possible, whatever their age. in Phase 1 of the New Jobseeker’s Regime and Flexible A major factor in the employment of older people is New Deal and are also pilot districts for Integrated employer behaviour. In addition to providing generic Employment and Skills. good practice guidance to employers, the UK’s Age Across the whole of the Greater Manchester area, Positive initiative is working in partnership with Jobcentre Plus also promotes a range of partner business leaders to develop sector-based models of provision to enhance the confidence, skills and flexible retirement to support the increased employability of all of our customers, including those employment and retention of older workers and the aged 18 to 24 and 50+. removal of fixed retirement ages. Our plans for the future include providing guidance to older workers on their options for working longer, Employment Services encouraging employers to increase flexible work and phased retirement opportunities, a review of the Default Retirement Age in 2011—if it is found to be no Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work longer needed it will be removed, and monitoring the and Pensions what guidance her Department has impact of the economic downturn, identifying which issued to Jobcentre Plus staff on referrals to (a) the groups are being most affected and further increasing newly unemployed (non-professional) support help where it is most needed. delivered by programme centres and (b) the newly For young people who are in danger of slipping into unemployed professional and executive support long-term unemployment, funding was provided in the delivered through commercial employment provision; Budget for the Young Person’s Guarantee; a and if she will place in the Library a copy of that guaranteed offer of a job, work-focused training, or guidance. [271715] meaningful activity to all 18 to 24-year-olds who reach the 12-month stage of their claim to jobseeker’s Jim Knight: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is allowance. At the discretion of the Jobcentre Plus a matter for the acting Chief Executive of Jobcentre adviser, parts of this guaranteed offer could also be Plus, Mel Groves. I have asked him to provide the right extended to people over 24 who face significant hon. Member with the information requested. barriers in the labour market. Letter from Mel Groves: As part of the Young Person’s Guarantee, the The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question Future Jobs Fund will help create up to 100,000 new of 24 April about what guidance has been issued to Jobcentre jobs. It will also help create up to 50,000 new jobs in Plus staff on referrals to (a) the newly unemployed (non- areas of high unemployment, and is available to all professional) support delivered by programme centres and (b) people of working age claiming out of work benefits. the newly unemployed professional and executive support We expect the Young Person’s Guarantee to be delivered through commercial employment provision. This is something that falls within my responsibilities as Acting Chief available from January 2010 but we want to get Future Executive of Jobcentre Plus. Jobs Fund jobs up and running as soon as possible— with some places starting as early as October this year. The guidance issued to Jobcentre Plus staff on referrals to newly unemployed support delivered by Programme Centres and In addition to this, on 6 April 2009, as part of the commercial employment provision has been placed in the Government’s response to the economic downturn, the Library. 131W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 132W

Jobcentre Plus: Complaints Total customer complaints

Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work August 2008 3,608 and Pensions how many complaints regarding September 2008 3,652 Jobcentre Plus have been received in each month of the October 2008 4,051 last two years. [271622] November 2008 3,493 December 2008 3,294 Jim Knight: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is January 2009 3,860 a matter for the acting chief executive of Jobcentre February 2009 4,219 Plus, Mel Groves. I have asked him to provide the right March 2009 5,001 hon. Member with the information requested. Source: Jobcentre Plus Letter from Ruth Owen: By way of context to these figures, Jobcentre Plus currently The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question has over four and a half million customers. Every working day, asking how many complaints regarding Jobcentre Plus have been Jobcentre Plus conducts 45,000 adviser interviews, processes over received in each month for the last two years. This is something 18,000 new benefit claims, and Contact Centres receive over which falls within the responsibilities delegated to Mel Groves as 93,000 calls. Acting Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus. As Mel Groves is currently on annual leave, I am replying in his absence. Jobcentre Plus: Manpower The information requested is in the following table below. Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Total customer complaints and Pensions how many personal advisers have been working in each Jobcentre Plus district in each month April 2007 3,906 of the last two years. [242176] May 2007 4,268 June 2007 3,972 Jim Knight: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is July 2007 4,187 a matter for the acting chief executive of Jobcentre August 2007 4,345 Plus, Mel Groves. I have asked him to provide the hon. September 2007 3,547 Member with the information requested. October 2007 4,144 Letter from Mel Groves: November 2007 3,946 December 2007 3,093 The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question asking how many personal advisers have been working in each January 2008 3,822 Jobcentre Plus District in each month of the last two years. This February 2008 3,520 is something that falls within the responsibilities delegated to me March 2008 3,102 as Acting Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus. April 2008 3,373 The available information showing the number of personal May 2008 2,950 advisers in each Jobcentre Plus District in each month from June 2008 3,637 November 2006 to October 2008 is in the attached tables. This July 2008 4,064 information will be placed in the Library.

Jobcentre Plus personal advisers by month and district November 2006 to March 2007 2006 2007 November December January February March

Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire 167 167 167 167 164 Cambridgeshire and Suffolk 151 151 150 150 151 Essex 206 205 201 201 194 Norfolk 114 112 111 113 110 Derbyshire 134 134 136 137 137 Leicestershire and Northamptonshire 163 162 165 165 163 Lincolnshire and Rutland 69 67 69 70 70 Nottinghamshire 138 137 135 135 135 Central London 153 161 162 154 157 City and East London 213 211 210 203 198 Lambeth Southwark and Wandsworth 206 214 215 207 208 North and North East London 344 340 333 330 324 South London 342 337 348 347 347 West London 291 290 290 291 292 Northumbria 198 220 208 210 188 South Tyne and Wear Valley 186 186 185 184 183 Tees Valley 160 160 161 161 159 Cheshire and Warrington 95 94 95 93 92 Cumbria 84 76 75 75 75 Greater Manchester Central 216 209 210 211 203 Greater Manchester East and West 270 272 278 280 274 Greater Mersey 166 162 161 162 162 Lancashire 257 258 257 261 263 Liverpool and Wirral 192 195 194 194 191 133W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 134W

Jobcentre Plus personal advisers by month and district November 2006 to March 2007 2006 2007 November December January February March

Ayrshire Dumfries and Galloway and Inverclyde 148 147 151 150 147 Edinburgh and Lothian and Borders 141 142 143 141 138 Forth Valley Fife and Tayside 194 194 191 188 186 Glasgow 174 164 166 160 157 Highland Islands Clyde Coast and Grampian 193 195 201 195 192 Lanarkshire and East Dunbartonshire 159 159 159 160 155 Berks Bucks and Oxfordshire 159 159 162 161 160 Hampshire 187 183 175 169 162 Kent 196 203 200 201 202 Surrey and Sussex 229 227 228 233 228 Devon and Cornwall 231 228 228 224 210 Dorset and Somerset 127 127 126 120 121 Gloucestershire Wiltshire and Swindon 121 118 117 121 119 West of England 143 142 145 148 147 North and Mid Wales 103 101 100 100 98 South East Wales 136 137 137 137 134 South Wales Valleys 132 132 130 125 125 South West Wales 122 123 126 122 124 Birmingham and Solihull 252 256 262 263 263 Black Country 231 223 221 220 215 Coventry and Warwickshire 92 93 94 93 91 Staffordshire 139 133 142 142 141 The Marches 138 137 140 140 138 North and East Yorkshire and the Humber 239 239 237 235 232 South Yorkshire 239 233 226 224 219 West Yorkshire 357 352 355 354 349

Personal advisers by month and district April 2007 to March 2008 2007 April May June July August September

Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire 165 165 166 168 166 164 Cambridgeshire and Suffolk 148 147 147 147 147 148 Essex 193 195 196 197 199 200 Norfolk 108 109 106 104 103 109 Derbyshire 179 175 172 162 162 166 Leicestershire and Northamptonshire 171 168 170 170 174 175 Lincolnshire and Rutland 68 69 69 70 70 69 Nottinghamshire 138 140 139 138 139 141 Central London 154 154 153 150 151 154 City and East London 203 199 188 192 194 200 Lambeth Southwark and Wandsworth 218 213 209 209 210 210 North and North East London 357 355 354 338 333 333 South London 390 387 388 395 393 399 West London 274 277 275 267 263 264 Northumbria 217 222 223 219 221 219 South Tyne and Wear Valley 236 229 231 234 232 235 Tees Valley 165 164 161 160 163 159 Cheshire Halton and Warrington 131 132 133 131 128 129 Cumbria and Lancashire 356 356 352 352 330 340 Greater Manchester Central 236 241 233 230 228 231 Greater Manchester East and West 274 270 267 268 271 281 Merseyside 367 361 362 362 363 348 Ayrshire Dumfries and Galloway and Inverclyde 151 150 150 149 148 150 Edinburgh and Lothian and Borders 139 138 135 136 139 138 Forth Valley Fife and Tayside 194 195 195 193 191 194 Glasgow 156 157 153 154 156 155 Highland Islands Clyde Coast and Grampian 205 206 206 204 203 198 Lanarkshire and East Dunbartonshire 159 156 154 157 155 158 Berks Bucks and Oxfordshire 165 166 164 170 171 172 Hampshire 163 159 160 161 158 160 Kent 197 197 198 193 191 194 Surrey and Sussex 220 219 219 223 220 222 135W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 136W

Personal advisers by month and district April 2007 to March 2008 2007 April May June July August September

Devon and Cornwall 212 212 214 209 214 216 Dorset and Somerset 147 145 143 144 141 140 Gloucestershire Wiltshire and Swindon 119 120 118 118 117 117 West of England 147 143 142 143 143 136 North and Mid Wales 99 101 104 103 103 104 South East Wales 131 131 135 130 131 130 South Wales Valleys 156 155 154 154 155 154 South West Wales 142 140 140 141 140 139 Birmingham and Solihull 265 265 264 260 261 279 Black Country 223 220 221 225 225 223 Coventry and Warwickshire 91 92 92 95 95 95 Staffordshire 150 149 150 150 153 151 The Marches 133 134 130 129 135 136 North and East Yorkshire and the Humber 247 243 242 241 242 244 South Yorkshire 238 242 239 245 242 255 West Yorkshire 360 360 370 379 381 384

2007 2008 October November December January February March

Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire 165 168 169 168 166 163 Cambridgeshire and Suffolk 149 152 152 153 152 147 Essex 199 202 200 199 197 196 Norfolk 107 107 108 110 109 108 Derbyshire 161 156 153 151 151 149 Leicestershire and Northamptonshire 181 182 186 190 188 186 Lincolnshire and Rutland 68 67 73 75 76 75 Nottinghamshire 140 143 142 141 139 138 Central London 151 151 149 151 143 136 City and East London 201 199 199 197 200 199 Lambeth Southwark and Wandsworth 206 204 203 208 214 216 North and North East London 332 326 324 323 328 336 South London 377 351 340 339 331 332 West London 254 262 263 261 259 257 Northumbria 211 206 208 212 209 204 South Tyne and Wear Valley 236 240 240 244 241 233 Tees Valley 160 167 166 169 164 157 Cheshire Halton and Warrington 130 130 129 127 125 126 Cumbria and Lancashire 342 344 345 335 332 331 Greater Manchester Central 231 226 224 208 207 209 Greater Manchester East and West 281 282 289 293 295 290 Merseyside 346 346 342 349 338 333 Ayrshire Dumfries and Galloway and 151 149 149 150 150 148 Inverclyde Edinburgh and Lothian and Borders 140 133 132 127 126 125 Forth Valley Fife and Tayside 193 191 193 190 186 184 Glasgow 160 161 161 161 159 158 Highland Islands Clyde Coast and Grampian 198 201 198 198 196 193 Lanarkshire and East Dunbartonshire 159 156 154 153 152 147 Berks Bucks and Oxfordshire 170 168 170 174 179 178 Hampshire 166 168 169 169 165 168 Kent 196 202 203 205 204 204 Surrey and Sussex 216 215 209 209 208 204 Devon and Cornwall 214 217 221 219 217 213 Dorset and Somerset 138 137 136 138 135 133 Gloucestershire Wiltshire and Swindon 119 120 121 119 118 119 West of England 134 131 130 129 129 128 North and Mid Wales 104 104 104 102 103 103 South East Wales 130 134 131 130 131 127 South Wales Valleys 154 152 148 146 145 143 South West Wales 137 135 133 132 135 136 Birmingham and Solihull 298 296 294 296 294 296 Black Country 231 233 231 233 230 230 Coventry and Warwickshire 98 103 103 104 102 104 137W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 138W

2007 2008 October November December January February March

Staffordshire 150 150 156 151 147 146 The Marches 129 133 130 129 131 133 North and East Yorkshire and the Humber 243 236 243 251 248 249 South Yorkshire 254 260 265 262 265 258 West Yorkshire 380 381 393 398 400 395

Jobseeker’s Allowance Jim Knight: In the 12 months up to and including November 2008 1,410 people entered the New Deal for Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Young People (NDYP) in Suffolk. This figure and Pensions what estimate her Department has made represents the number of individuals to have started of the expected additional on-flows onto jobseeker’s NDYP for the most recent year available. allowance owing to the (a) introduction of the The figure is rounded to the nearest 10. It should be employment and support allowance and (b) winding noted that some individuals may have started the New up of the income support scheme in each quarter in (i) Deal more than once. 2009-10 and (ii) 2010-11. [277220] Poverty: Merseyside Jim Knight [holding answer 1 June 2009]: Information about the estimated additional on-flows to Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State jobseeker’s allowance as a result of employment and for Work and Pensions how many people in (a) support allowance replacing incapacity benefit for new Merseyside and (b) Crosby constituency were in claims from October 2008 is in the following table. relative poverty in each of the last five years. [282475] Estimated on-flows to jobseeker’s allowance Jim Knight: Poverty statistics, published in the Number Households Below Average Income series, only allow a May 2009 3,000 breakdown of the overall number of people in relative August 2009 3,000 poverty at Government office region level or for inner November 2009 2,000 or outer London. Therefore, information for February 2010 3,000 Merseyside and the Crosby constituency is not May 2010 3,000 available. August 2010. 3,000 November 2010 3,000 Social Security Benefits February 2011 3,000 Note: Mr. Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Figures are rounded to the nearest 1,000. Work and Pensions how many benefit offices were in There are currently no plans to move any groups off operation in each year since 1998; and how many Income Support in the quarters referred to other than offices scheduled for closure in each such year had the lone parents with older children. closure suspended. [280916]

Local Employment Partnerships Jim Knight [holding answer 18 June 2009]: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is the responsibility of the acting chief executive, Mel Groves. I have asked Paul Rowen: To ask the Secretary of State for Work him to provide the hon. Member with the information and Pensions how many people in each age group have requested. been placed in employment through the Local Employment Partnership scheme in the last six months. Letter from Ruth Owen: [278262] The Secretary of State has asked Mel Groves to reply to your question asking how many benefit offices have been open in each Mr. McNulty [holding answer 8 June 2009]: Figures year since 1998; and how many offices scheduled for closure in each such year had the closure suspended. This is something for people moving into work through the Local which falls within the responsibilities delegated to Mel Groves as Employment Partnership scheme by age group are not Acting Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus. As Mel Groves is available. currently on annual leave, I am replying in his absence. Jobcentre Plus’s administrative records show that Information is only available on Jobcentre Plus offices since more than 100,000 people were helped into work April 2002, when Jobcentre Plus was created by the merger of the through Local Employment Partnerships in the six former Employment Service and Benefits Agency. I have months from November 2008 to the end of April 2009. attached a table at Annex 1 of the available information. Jobcentre Plus inherited around 1,500 offices from the merger of the Benefits Agency and the Employment Service in 2002. We New Deal for Young People: Suffolk have modernised our Jobcentre network to improve customer service, rationalising our estate to provide excellent high street coverage and a single, integrated customer facing office, at the Mr. Spring: To ask the Secretary of State for Work same time reducing cost to the tax payer. We remain the largest and Pensions how many people in Suffolk registered for office network in Government with 741 modern Jobcentres. This the New Deal for Young People in the last 12 months. high street presence is supported by 31 modern, industry [273249] standard, contact centres and 79 main benefit processing centres. 139W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 140W

Jobcentres continue to provide an essential service—especially Delivery Plans, our District Managers take account of this to those customers most in need of tailored help. However, the consultation and may, in the light of that consultation, decide great majority of our services (in common with most large, not to pursue closure. We do not retain records of offices that modern organisations) are now also delivered through the remain open following a consultation exercise, but, in the light of telephone and internet. For example, to give customers more the current economic conditions and welfare reform changes convenient access we have around half a million vacancies planned for the next two to three years a decision was taken in on-line at any time (our website receives close to one million job November 2008 to suspend the closure of 25 Jobcentres which searches every working day), and new claims to benefit are were being considered for closure. Three small offices in London, predominantly taken by telephone with some taken on-line. where closure had been previously announced, subsequently Wherever we have considered the closure of a public facing closed this year. There will be no new Jobcentre closures while office we have undertaken a full consultation with local the current economic conditions exist. stakeholders, including MPs. When finalising our Service Annex 1

Jobcentre Plus offices open to the public now all modernised: 2002 to date1 January Region Currently 2009 2008 2007 2006 2005 2004 2003 2002

East of England 57 57 66 67 72 84 85 90 90 East Midlands 53 53 54 56 69 71 75 83 83 London 74 77 80 90 114 121 132 138 139 NorthEast 454547495360646565 North West 97 97 104 112 129 139 153 160 160 Scotland 99 99 100 103 125 139 150 153 153 South East 74 74 77 82 97 107 121 123 123 South West 57 57 79 83 91 102 114 118 118 Wales 63 63 63 64 87 95 108 111 111 West Midlands 63 63 67 79 98 105 108 115 116 Yorkshire and the Humber 59 59 60 61 68 79 87 88 88 Totals of all regions 741 744 797 846 1,003 1,102 1,197 1,244 1,246 1 Prior to implementing our network of Benefit Delivery Centres, from April 2006, many sites delivered both customer facing and benefit processing services. This table reflects the rationalisation of the former network of Employment Service and Benefit Agency offices right through to the current network where all offices are integrated Job Centre offices.

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS administration staff there were in each Environment Agency office in each of the last five years. [281627] Environment Agency: Manpower Jim Fitzpatrick: The following table shows the Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for information requested broken down by each Environment Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many (a) Agency region. It also includes figures for its head directors, (b) senior managers, (c) specialist and office. The information has been provided in this way delivery managers and (d) executive support and because the Environment Agency has over 250 offices.

Analysis Based on organisation region Grouping 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

AnglianDirector 00000 Senior manager 68778 Manager 43 37 40 42 45 Specialist 21 21 21 25 33 Executive support and administration staff 24 19 19 14 17

Midlands Director 00000 Senior manager 88988 Manager 43 37 39 34 40 Specialist 18 17 21 18 22 Executive support and administration staff 12 16 15 12 14

NorthEastDirector 00000 Senior manager 77767 Manager 38 34 36 39 39 Specialist 20 22 22 23 19 Executive support and administration staff 20 20 19 16 15

NorthWestDirector 00000 141W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 142W

Analysis Based on organisation region Grouping 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

Senior manager 77667 Manager 44 40 43 39 40 Specialist 31 33 33 34 39 Executive support and administration staff 9 10 10 9 10

Southern Director 00000 Senior manager 76776 Manager 36 31 35 35 40 Specialist 9 8 13 13 18 Executive support and administration staff 888910

South West Director 00000 Senior manager 8 10 7 7 7 Manager 44 33 33 37 34 Specialist 12 12 16 14 18 Executive support and administration staff 14 15 13 13 13

Thames Director 00000 Senior manager 10 8 8 8 10 Manager 56 59 71 73 77 Specialist 30 30 41 37 35 Executive support and administration staff 16 23 21 27 21

WalesDirector 00000 Senior manager 88679 Manager 51 55 59 59 59 Specialist 19 24 26 28 35 Executive support and administration staff 13 12 13 12 12

Head Office Director 88788 Senior manager 74 87 95 96 99 Manager 395 428 464 475 548 Specialist 353 378 407 406 464 Executive support and administration staff 99 95 86 79 73

OverallTotalDirector 88788 Senior manager 135 149 152 152 161 Manager 750 754 820 833 922 Specialist 513 545 600 598 683 Executive support and administration staff 215 218 204 191 185

Forests open habitats policy in June 2009 which received over 170 responses. A report on the consultation will be Ms Angela C. Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for published in the summer and I expect to receive Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the policy recommendations on policy options in the autumn. of the Forestry Commission England is on the The approach followed on the public forest estate will re-creation of (a) lowland heathland and (b) other then reflect our decisions on the policy options as well open habitats on its estate; and if he will make a as and conclusions from the study of the long-term role statement. [282478] of the Public Forest Estate announced in November 2008. Huw Irranca-Davies: The Forestry Commission is Ms Angela C. Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for leading a process to develop the policy on restoring and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he expanding open habitats such as lowland heathland has made of the area of plantation forest in the public from woods and forests in England. The Forestry forest estate which could be restored to (a) lowland Commission completed a public consultation on the heathland and (b) blanket bog. [282480] 143W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 144W

Huw Irranca-Davies: The Forestry Commission published and Enforcement Act (TCEA) 2007 contained a series the results of a survey of open habitats and open of measures to support those debtors for whom the habitat potential on the public forest estate in May current statutory provisions of bankruptcy and individual 2009. The survey shows that the area of plantation voluntary arrangements may not be the best option. forest that could be restored to lowland heathland as One of these was a low income, low asset bankruptcy 29,433 hectares and the area of plantation forest that scheme, which was introduce into the Insolvency Act 1986 could be restored to blanket bog as 1,794 hectares. on 6 April 2009 and is known as a Debt Relief Order (DRO). Ms Angela C. Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for The TCEA 2007 also contains powers for the Lord Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he Chancellor to introduce statutory debt management has of the area of (a) lowland heathland and (b) schemes that could have similar features to the debt blanket bog which (i) Forestry Commission England assistance scheme. and (ii) other public bodies have restored since 2005. [282481] The implementation of part 5 of the TCEA 2007 is currently being reviewed and an announcement is expected Huw Irranca-Davies: The area of lowland heathland to be made shortly. and blanket bog restored by the Forestry Commission on the public forest estate since 2005 is 672 hectares and Internet: Iran 315 hectares respectively. We do not hold the information centrally on other public bodies. However, Natural England Mr. Lidington: To ask the Minister of State, has entered into Environmental Stewardship agreements Department for Business, Innovation and Skills if he with landowners to restore 12,763 hectares of lowland will restrict or prohibit the supply to Iran by UK heathland and 24,795 hectares of blanket bog. companies of technologies capable of use to monitor, inspect or filter internet content. [282195]

Ian Lucas [holding answer 25 June 2009]: There are WALES currently no plans to restrict further or prohibit the Departmental Pay supply to Iran by UK companies of technologies capable of use to monitor, inspect or filter internet content. The export of these technologies would already be controlled Mr. Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if they employed cryptography or were specially designed whether his Department has submitted a bid for for military use. In such cases, all export licence applications efficiency savings to be used for pay improvements in are rigorously assessed on a case-by-case basis against 2009 pay offers. [283032] the Consolidated EU and National Arms Export Licensing Criteria and a licence would not be issued if to do so Mr. Hain: Pay offers are not negotiated at Wales was inconsistent with the criteria. In particular a licence Office level as staff in the Wales Office are employed by would not be issued if there was clear risk that the the Ministry of Justice or the Welsh Assembly Government. proposed export might be used for internal repression. Olympic Games 2012 Jordan: Overseas Trade Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether any full-time equivalent members of Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Minister of State, staff in his Department are working on projects Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what relating to the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic steps his Department is taking to encourage trade between Jordan and the UK. [282293] Games. [283159]

Mr. Hain: As part of their duties a number of my Ian Lucas: UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) provide officials (together with colleagues from the Welsh Assembly a range of support services to UK companies wishing Government) have and continue to work towards to trade with Jordan. These are detailed on the UKTI maximising Wales’ contribution to a successful London web pages. 2012. Specific events that have been supported by UKTI in the last year to encourage trade between Jordan and the UK include: two education events in October 2008 and February to promote BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS the opportunities in Jordan to UK companies; a trade mission with UK health care companies to Jordan in Debts February; a joint event with the Arab British Chamber of Commerce to Jim Cousins: To ask the Minister of State, promote the opportunities in Jordan to UK companies; Department for Business, Innovation and Skills several regional Gulf events such as Arab Health and the Big 5 whether the Government plan to introduce a (a) debt (construction) exhibitions where UK companies could access arrangement scheme and (b) low income low assets information about doing business in Jordan. bankruptcy scheme. [281586] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Minister of State, Ian Lucas: Addressing financial problems at an early Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how stage is essential to identifying a sustainable solution to much trade there was between Jordan and the UK in an individual’s problems. Part 5 of the Tribunals, Courts the last five years. [282294] 145W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 146W

Ian Lucas: The value of goods exported to Jordan in “Science Competencies for tomorrow’s world” (PISA 2004 amounted to £161 million, in 2005 £186 million, in 2006) shows that students in schools that hold more 2006 £160 million, in 2007 £164 million and in 2008 extracurricular science activities tend to perform better £210 million. than their counterparts in schools that run fewer activities. The value of goods imported from Jordan in 2004 The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills amounted to £20 million, in 2005 £22 million, in 2006 and its predecessor departments have funded a number £20 million, in 2007 £37 million and in 2008 £21 million. of initiatives with the specific aim of providing enrichment and enhancement activities for young people, thereby Motor Vehicles: Manufacturing Industries increasing numbers taking these subjects at GCSE level and beyond. Mr. Hoban: To ask the Minister of State, We have undertaken several studies on the impact of Department for Business, Innovation and Skills those Government-funded initiatives whose aim is to pursuant to the answer of 2 April 2009, Official Report, increase the numbers of young people studying STEM column 1446W, on motor industry: government subjects. It is not usually possible to prove a quantitative assistance, whether his Department has received causal link between any one initiative and impact on applications for the provision of guarantees for numbers, because many factors affect the decision-making European Investment Bank loans to UK automotive process when choosing specific courses. companies under the Automotive Assistance Recent studies include: programme. [274280] An evaluation of SETNET (now STEMNET), published in 2007, carried out by the Tavistock Institute. STEMNET has Ian Lucas: The Government remain committed to recently commissioned a follow-up evaluation, which will be providing guarantees, where appropriate, to help unlock published next year. up to £1.3 billion in European investment bank loans to In July 2008, DIUS commissioned a study on the impact of UK automotive companies. While no guarantees have science centres on both numbers studying STEM and wider at this stage been provided, BIS is actively supporting public engagement with science. Science centres in England are the EIB applications of a number of UK automotive principally funded by users and regional or charitable bodies, rather than by central Government. The research compares the companies and stands ready to offer a guarantee where contribution of science centres to STEM objective with that of necessary and in accordance with the published criteria a number of Government-funded initiatives, including for the Automotive Assistance Programme. STEMNET’s STEM ambassadors programme, outreach work of the Royal Academy of Engineering (including the London Regulatory Policy Committee Engineering Programme), Research Councils UK, and the British Science Association (including the CREST Star Investigator Bob Spink: To ask the Minister of State, Department programme). This research will be published shortly. for Business, Innovation and Skills what date he has set In January 2009 DIUS published a report on “the Demand for for the appointment of members to his Department’s STEM skills” which reviewed the evidence from employers on STEM recruitment alongside analysis of the supply of young proposed regulatory policy committee; and if he will people with STEM qualifications and their labour market make a statement. [282511] outcomes. The report included recent trends of STEM qualifications at A Level, First Degree and Postgraduate levels. Ian Lucas: Members will be appointed to the new In addition, DIUS commissioned the Warwick Institute of Regulatory Policy Committee in the coming months. Employment Research to provide some benchmark projections and associated implications of the demand and supply of Bob Spink: To ask the Minister of State, Department STEM graduates. These studies identify the important contribution made by STEM enrichment activities in stimulating interest for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he among young people and their increased attractiveness to has made of the cost to the public purse of the (a) employers which results. establishment and (b) operation of his Department’s On 26 May 2009, DIUS launched a Science and Society proposed regulatory policy committee. [282513] strategy, which tackles the five key themes identified in last year’s public consultation. In so doing we will develop a more Ian Lucas: Estimates on the establishment and the coherent approach to evaluating the impacts of science and operation of the new Regulatory Policy Committee will society initiatives, including those related to STEM enrichment be made in due course. and enhancement, and the take-up of STEM courses by young people. Science: Education Setanta

Adam Afriyie: To ask the Minister of State, Mr. Donohoe: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what research his Department and its predecessors have (a) representations he has received on (a) the placing into undertaken and (b) commissioned in the last three administration of Setanta and (b) the future financial years on the effect of Government-funded science position of (i) Setanta and (ii) its employees; and if he awareness initiatives on the number of young people will make a statement. [282801] studying courses in science, technology, engineering and mathematics; and if he will make a statement. Ian Lucas [holding answer 29 June 2009]: The company [282053] approached the Department on 28 May to seek our influence with certain commercial stakeholders to help Mr. Lammy: There is good evidence that participation facilitate rescue discussions. Although we were unable in Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics to intervene in commercial discussions, officials kept in (STEM) enrichment activities improves young people’s contact with the company throughout the period in progression in science education. A recent OECD study which it was attempting to agree a rescue deal. 147W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 148W

The administrators are shutting down the company’s additional troops to provide extra security during the UK operation and have made 102 London-based staff Afghan election period, improve force protection redundant, along with a further 73 staff in Glasgow. particularly against improvised explosive devices and to They are keeping on another 21 staff in the short-term command the International Security Assistance Forces’ to help close the business down; 15 in London and six in Regional Command (South). Glasgow. Setanta’s sales team is outsourced and I understand that the loss of Setanta’s contract will result Armed Forces: Health Services in around 95 redundancies at the out-sourcing company. Students: Loans Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many patients have received treatment Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, under his Department’s contract with the Priory Group Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how in each year of its operation; and what the cost of the much of the student loan book has been sold under the contract has been in each such year. [283076] provisions of the Sale of Student Loans Act 2008. [282854] Mr. Kevan Jones: The information requested, up until 31 March 2009, can be found in the following table. Mr. Lammy: The Government still intend to make sales from the student loan book, but it is clear that this Number of patients Contract value (£ should be done only at a time when we can get a good treated million) return for the taxpayer. For the time being, the market 1 December 2003 to 31 58 0.4 conditions do not allow this. However, we will actively March 2004 look to identify opportunities for a sale that represents 1 April 2004 to 31 March 321 4.2 value for money as market conditions improve. 2005 1 April 2005 to 31 March 351 4.5 UK Trade and Investment: Offices 2006 1 April 2006 to 31 March 305 3.4 2007 Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Minister of State, 1 April 2007 to 31 March 289 3.9 Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how 2008 many staff of UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) have 1 April 2008 to 31 March 284 3.3 been based in each UKTI office in (a) Brazil, (b) 2009 Russia, (c) India and (d) China in each year since These figures take into account the cost of assessing 2003. [277788] patients as well as any treatment programmes provided; the individual care needs of each patient will vary Ian Lucas: The following table reflects the allocation depending on their particular medical circumstances. of UKTI full-time equivalent staff in Brazil, Russia, They also include services provided by the Priory Group India and China each year since 2008. between 1 December 2003 and April 2004 prior to the formal contract start date. 2003-4 2004-5 2005-6 2006-7 2007-8 2008-9 The contract with the Priory Group has been replaced Brazil 51.11 39.13 39 33.65 38.15 38.18 by a new one, awarded in November 2008 following Russia 17.19 17.92 16 25.75 29.30 29.30 open competition, with a partnership of seven NHS India 81.26 76.12 76.34 73.98 80.42 86.30 trusts led by South Staffordshire and Shropshire NHS China1 87.74 94.63 98.75 113.47 116.81 116.47 (including Foundation Trust. This ensures coverage across the Hong Kong) country, and complements the community-based approach 1 In addition to the total given for China, since June 2007 17.5 full-time we follow for our out-patients who are seen at our equivalent staff of the China Britain Business Council based in China have regional military mental health centres. delivered, on behalf of UKTI, the majority of trade services in respect of China. Armed Forces: Mental Health Services

DEFENCE Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what progress his Department has made on Afghanistan: Armed Forces arrangements to meet the mental health needs of veterans; and if he will make a statement; [283035] Mr. Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) how many community veterans’ mental health Defence on what date he received the latest Theatre therapists there were in each region of (a) England, Capability Review for Afghanistan; and what change in (b) Scotland, (c) Wales and (d) Northern Ireland in the number of troops the review recommended. each of the last five years; [283078] [282182] (3) what funding (a) his Department and (b) the Mr. Bob Ainsworth [holding answer 25 June 2009]: Department of Health has provided to each of the We regularly assess the military capability required for community veterans mental health pilots in each year operations in Afghanistan; periodic theatre capability since their inception; and how much has been allocated reviews are one element of this assessment process. to each in the next two years; [283080] Following the most recent assessment submitted to (4) how many veterans have used each of the Ministers, the Prime Minister announced on 29 April community veterans mental health pilots in each year 2009, Official Report, column 869, the deployment of since their inception; [283081] 149W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 150W

(5) what progress there has been on the pilots to Bill Rammell: The Ministry of Defence does not have examine ways of meeting the needs of veterans with a specific Minister for Europe. The Secretary of State mental health problems announced in 2007. [283028] for Defence has responsibility for NATO and European Security and Defence Policy issues, supported by the Mr. Kevan Jones: Veterans health care has been the Minister for International Defence and Security, right responsibility of the national health service (NHS) since hon. Baroness Taylor. Both the Secretary of State and 1948. The MOD is committed to good mental health Minister (IDS) have attended meetings of EU Defence and well-being for its personnel both in service and Ministers under successive EU presidencies, where after. discussion typically focuses on issues of operations, While it appears that most veterans use community capabilities and partnerships. wide NHS service provision satisfactorily, including for mental health, the Government have taken a number of specific steps to meet the needs of veterans with mental Equipment: Procurement health issues. These steps include creating the Reservists Mental Health Programme, open to any current or Mr. Arbuthnot: To ask the Secretary of State for former member of the UK Volunteer and Regular Defence what his policy is on the acquisition of rights Reserves who has been demobilised since 1 January over design information and assured access to relevant 2003; the Medical Assessment Programme available to design knowledge in respect of procurement of (a) veterans deployed on operations since 1982; and more armoured fighting vehicles, (b) fixed wing piloted recently engaging with the four UK Health Departments aircraft, (c) helicopters, (d) unmanned aerial vehicles, and the ex-service charities in piloting a new best practice, (e) ships, (f) submarines, (g) electronic equipment culturally sensitive, mental health care service for veterans and programmes and (h) other purchases. [282807] in six NHS trusts across the UK. Each of the six pilots across the UK are operational Mr. Quentin Davies [holding answer 29 June 2009]: and being led by a Community Veterans’ Mental Health The MOD’s general approach to Intellectual Property Therapist. The early take up results of the pilots suggest Rights (IPR) is to leave ownership of rights in design that veterans are willing to access the service, however information with industry and to secure access and user the numbers making use of the service are currently rights in that information. There is a series of MOD being validated and are not yet available. An independent standardised contract conditions (IPR DEFCONs) that evaluation of the pilots is currently under way with a are available to secure these rights under contract. However, final report due in 2011. Outcomes will include the our approach on an individual project may vary, according range of disorders and the level of demand to inform to its specific requirements. Details of MOD’s IPR future service planning and subsequent roll out nationwide. policy are publicly available as part of the Acquisition Operating Framework at: Departmental Information and Communications www.aof.mod.uk/aofcontent/tactical/toolkit/downloads/ Technology ipr_ov/iprpol.pdf Earlier this month I announced the launch of MOD’s new Armoured Fighting Vehicles (AFV) sector strategy, John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for 23 June 2009, Official Report, column 52WS. For this Defence what estimate he has made of the amount to sector, we will in future in principle wish to acquire at be paid by his Department to the company awarded the the outset rights over design information, as well as contract to deliver increment 3a of the Defence assured access to relevant design knowledge, sufficient Information Infrastructure programme. [283173] to allow third party modification of designs where appropriate, and to permit routine maintenance repair Mr. Quentin Davies: No contract has yet been awarded and overhaul activities. and any estimate of payment is subject to ongoing The MOD continues to develop a number of industrial negotiations and as such is commercially sensitive and sector strategies, under the umbrella of the Defence cannot be released at this stage. Industrial Strategy 2005. We expect to make announcements about these, including any relevant IPR issues, as they John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for mature. Defence how much his Department has spent on the redundancy costs of ATLAS staff working on the Defence Information Infrastructure programme to Pakistan: Military Aid date. [283174]

Mr. Quentin Davies: The value of payments to ATLAS Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for in respect of those members of staff who occupied Defence how many UK military personnel are in-scope posts, transferred to ATLAS under TUPE deployed in Pakistan; and what duties they are arrangements and subsequently made redundant, is undertaking. [283090] between £5 million and £6 million. Bill Rammell: I can confirm that there are currently 31 UK military personnel based in Pakistan undertaking Economic and Monetary Union a variety of roles including training, liaison and diplomatic duties. The number of military personnel based in Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Pakistan varies from time to time. This can be for a what activities have been undertaken by his variety of reasons, including revised tasking and changes Department’s Euro Minister in that capacity. [277165] to previous roles. 151W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 152W

Type 45 Destroyers Government. This includes proposals for investment in Essex for bus-based schemes such as South Essex Rapid Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Transit and the A13 Passenger Transport Corridor. The for what reasons the launch of the Type 45 destroyer Department expects to be in a position to respond to has been delayed; and if he will make a statement. this advice in the next few weeks. [283017] Buses: Concessions Mr. Quentin Davies: The Government have previously acknowledged that the original estimates of the Type 45 destroyers in-service dates were overly optimistic. These Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister of State, judgments were made in the early period of the Department for Transport what recent assessment he programme’s life when the ship design was still relatively has made of the adequacy of provision of free bus immature. Since a review of the programme and subsequent travel for the elderly; and if he will make a statement. renegotiation of the contract in 2007, Type 45 has made [282683] strong progress, achieving a series of critical programme milestones without any further time or cost overruns. Mr. Khan: The Government are now providing around £1 billion each year to support the statutory minimum Veterans Forum concession which improves social inclusion for older and eligible disabled people who can now travel free on Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for local buses at off-peak times in any part of England. Defence how many times the Veterans Forum has met The Government are very confident in the adequacy of in each year since its establishment; and which this statutory minimum. The provision of services over Ministers and officials from (a) the Government and the network of bus routes and their frequency is for (b) the devolved administrations have been present at operators to decide as most services are run on a each meeting. [283024] commercial basis. Where a commercial service is not considered viable, local authorities may contract with Mr. Kevan Jones: The Veterans Forum has met 18 times bus operators to provide services. since its establishment in 2002 and currently meets bi-annually. It is chaired by the Under-Secretary of Channel Tunnel Railway Line State and Minister for Veterans, and is attended by a number of officials from the Ministry of Defence, including single service representatives. Representatives are also Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, invited from other Government Departments including Department for Transport what recent progress has the Department for Health; Children, Schools and Families; been made towards the introduction of a direct Communities and Local Government; as well as from high-speed rail service between London and each of the Devolved Administrations. A number of Amsterdam. [283196] ex-service organisations are also in attendance making the total number of attendees more than 30 at each Chris Mole: The Government are currently engaged meeting. in a restructuring of London and Continental Railways. Following this, it is the Government’s intention, as market conditions allow, to sell, via an open and competitive auction, a long-term concession for High Speed 1 in TRANSPORT such a way as to maximise value for money for the taxpayer. A419 High Speed 1 is incentivised to maximise usage of the Mr. Laurence Robertson: To ask the Minister of line, and to help operators develop new international State, Department for Transport what recent services. London to Amsterdam is a large market under discussions he has had with the Highways Agency on consideration by train operators. Operators that wish to required improvements to the A419 between Nettleton utilise High Speed 1 will negotiate access rights with the Bottom and Brockworth, Gloucestershire. [282722] holder of the concession to operate the railway.

Chris Mole: The proposed A419 Cowley to Brockworth Crossrail Line: Contracts Improvement Scheme has been considered by the South West Region as part of its refresh of regional funding Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, priorities. The region has not included the scheme in Department for Transport which Crossrail contracts their forward programme of priorities up to 2019 and I awarded for (a) the Crossrail Programme Partner, (b) am currently considering their advice. the Crossrail Delivery Partner, (c) the DfT Programme Bus Lanes: Essex Partner and (d) the Network Rail Delivery Partner were awarded to (i) US companies, (ii) UK companies Bob Spink: To ask the Minister of State, Department and (iii) other companies; which were subject to open for Transport what recent representations he has tender; and if he will make a statement. [282884] received on funding for the construction of bus lanes in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point. [282812] Mr. Khan [holding answer 29 June 2009]: The Programme Partner and Delivery Partner contracts were Mr. Khan: The Department for Transport received awarded by Crossrail Ltd., the Project Representative advice in February 2009 from the East of England contract was awarded by the Department in conjunction region on its transport priorities in the period up to with TfL, and the Network Rail Delivery Partner contract 2018-19 as part of its Regional Funding Advice to was awarded by Network Rail. 153W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 154W

The Crossrail contracts referred to above were awarded We have in recent years supplemented local authority as shown in the following table. All of the contracts in spend and funded schools direct through their School the table were awarded under European procurement sports Partnerships to increase the number of children rules. who can receive national standard training as part of our target of delivering an additional 500,000 training Supplier country places by 2012. Client Contract Awarded to of origin We announced cycle training grants amounting to Crossrail Ltd. (a) Crossrail Transcend— AECOM—US £5.4 million earlier this year for 94 local authorities and Programme Joint Venture CH2M Partner between Group—US our cycle demonstration towns. All bids for grant were AECOM, Nichols—UK awarded in full. This money will fund around 135,000 CH2M Hill and training places in addition to the estimated 100,000 The Nichols Group being funded through our grants of £4 million to School Crossrail Ltd. (b) Crossrail Bechtel Ltd. US Sports Partnerships. This builds on the 146,000 places Delivery Partner we have already funded and goes a long way to meeting DfT/TfL (c) Project Jacobs US our 2012 target. Representative Engineering Ltd. Network Rail (d) Network Bechtel Ltd. US Mr. Leech: To ask the Minister of State, Department Rail Delivery for Transport on what core criteria his Department Partner approves school cycling safety programmes; and what account is taken of the inclusion of training in safety in All contracts of this scale are subject to the European relation to heavy goods vehicles in the approval of such rules on procurement which require contracts to be programmes. [282559] advertised in the Official Journal of the European Union where any supplier that wishes to do so can express an interest, thus attracting the widest possible field of Mr. Khan: The Department for Transport only provides prospective bidders. grant for cycle training that meets the National Standard, promoted as Bikeability training in England. We have Under the “restricted procedure” interested suppliers made over £9 million available to local authorities and are narrowed down, usually by means of some kind of school sports partnerships to deliver the national standard qualifying questionnaire, to a shortlist from which suppliers in 2009-10. are invited to tender. The National Standard replaces the old cycling Cycling: Schools proficiency and been designed and developed by leading experts in the road safety and cycling fields including Mr. Leech: To ask the Minister of State, Department RoSPA, Local Authority Road Safety Officers (LARSOA) for Transport in how many (a) primary and (b) and the Cyclists Touring Club. It is based on similar secondary schools there is a cycling safety programme principles to lessons for motorcycles, allowing cyclists which has been approved by his Department. [282546] to assess risks and obstacles faced on the road. It involves a higher standard of cycle training, including Mr. Khan: The Department for Transport provides an on-road element and is designed to give confidence advice on safer cycling for children of all ages on its and skills to deal with today’s road conditions. It can “Think” website. only be delivered by qualified national standard trainers. The Department also funds cycle training in schools. The training consists of three levels: Grants are available for local authorities and school Level 1: aimed at 7-9 year olds-off road teaching of basic sports partnerships for national standard cycle training cycling and balance skills; promoted as Bikeability training in England. The decision on which schools take part is for individual local authority Level 2: aimed at 10-11 years-on-road training building on the first level; and school sports partnerships to determine. We do not therefore hold information about which schools have Level 3: aimed at older children/adults-includes tackling difficult taken part to date, though we do plan to ask for it in the road features (e.g. roundabouts) and the safe use of cycle facilities. future as the delivery in schools expands. To date we have funded around 146,000 training places and have The National Standard deals with positioning and made grants of around £10 million available in 2009-10 identifying the different hazards and road conditions to fund over 200,000 places. cyclists may face on the road including being able to Safety may also be covered in a school’s travel plan. recognise the dangers that can be posed by large vehicles. Every school should have a travel plan by March 2010. Positioning and filtering is particularly important when We do not hold data on which plans include any safety sharing road space. Filtering allows a cyclist to move aspect. inside or outside of slow or stationary traffic but the choice to filter rests with the cyclist who needs to know Mr. Leech: To ask the Minister of State, Department how to judge when to filter. These skills are primarily for Transport how many local authorities were funding taught at Level 3. Not filtering up the left of large a cycling safety programme in schools on the latest date vehicles at junctions is the main proviso cyclists are for which figures are available. [282558] taught because the drivers of large vehicles have a blind spot on their nearside when turning left and the space Mr. Khan: Most local authorities fund some form of there if occupied by a cyclist becomes closed. cycle training in their schools usually through their A number of local authorities and other organisations Local Transport Plan funding. Not all of it is National give advice to HGV drivers about sharing road space Standard training (see reply to PQ 2588 08/09). with cyclists. 155W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 156W

Mr. Leech: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (CLG) in for Transport what recent discussions the Secretary of 2006. CLG does not hold any data on performance State has had with (a) the Secretary of State for management markings before 2002. Communities and Local Government and (b) the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families John McDonnell: To ask the Minister of State, on the efficient funding and delivery of cycling safety Department for Transport what percentage of (a) programmes in schools. [282560] white and (b) non-white staff received the highest performance mark in his Department’s 2008-09 Mr. Khan: None since the Secretary of State only reporting round. [282960] recently took office. However both Department for Transport Ministers and officials here engage with Her Chris Mole: The Department for Transport line Majesty’s Government colleagues on these issues as management are in the process of meeting all permanent necessary.Meetings are held regularly with the Department staff to deliver annual performance management reviews. of Children, Schools and Families on the part increases Once this process is completed, the results will be collated in cycling, particularly cycling to school can play in and published as part of the Department’s annual equality improving the health and fitness of children as part of monitoring duties. The Department expects to finalise the Government’s initiatives to reduce child obesity and this process by November 2009. increase physical activity. Departmental Pay Departmental Manpower Mr. Llwyd: To ask the Minister of State, Department John McDonnell: To ask the Minister of State, for Transport which of his Department’s (a) agencies Department for Transport pursuant to the answer of and (b) non-departmental public bodies have 24 March 2009, Official Report, column 200W, on submitted bids for efficiency savings to be used for pay departmental manpower, what recent forecast his improvements in 2009 pay offers. [283030] Department has made of the number of posts in each bargaining unit on 31 March 2010. [282956] Chris Mole: Within the Department for Transport, its agencies and associated non-departmental public bodies Chris Mole: The table shows the forecast change in no bids for efficiency savings have been submitted to be headcount (permanent staff and those on fixed term used for pay improvements in 2009 pay offers. contracts), expressed as full-time equivalents, between 31 March 2009 and 31 March 2010 in the centre of the Fuels: EU Law Department for Transport and each of the Department’s bargaining units. Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport pursuant to the answer of Actual for 31 Forecast for 31 March 2009 March 2010 Change 18 June 2009, Official Report, columns 427-8W, on diesel fuel: EU action, what information his Department for 1,902 1,902 0 Department holds on the applications (a) made by and Transport Centre (b) granted to member states for derogation from the Driver and Vehicle 6,329 6,328 -1 Licensing Agency Fuel Quality Directive 98/70 (EC) in respect of the Driving Standards 2,574 2,560 -14 sulphur content of fuel since its inception. [282575] Agency Government Car 315 350 35 Mr. Khan: The Department for Transport is not and Despatch Agency aware of such a derogation ever having been either Highways Agency 3,416 3,416 0 requested by or granted to a Member State. EU Fuel 1 Maritime and 1,128 1,127 -1 Quality Monitoring reports suggest that, with the exception Coastguard Agency of transitional problems for two accession Member Vehicle Certification 136 144 8 States in 2005, EU petrol and diesel are generally well Agency within the mandatory sulphur content limits. Vehicle and 2,638 2,679 41 1 http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/intemal_market/single Operator Services Agency _market_for_goods/motor_vehicles/interactions_industry _policies/l28077_en.htm

John McDonnell: To ask the Minister of State, Highways Agency Department for Transport what percentage of (a) white and (b) non-white staff received the highest Bob Spink: To ask the Minister of State, Department performance marking in the core business units of (i) for Transport how much was paid in bonuses to (a) the Department for Environment, Transport and the directors, (b) senior managers, (c) specialist and Regions and (ii) the Department for Transport, Local delivery managers and (d) executive support and Government and the Regions in each year between administration staff in the Highways Agency in each of 1997 and 2006. [282959] the last five years. [282145]

Mr. Malik: I have been asked to reply. Chris Mole: Bonus payments to (a) directors are The Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (ODPM) managed by the central Department. A comprehensive and the Department for Transport were formed in 2002, breakdown of (b) senior managers, (c) specialist and from the Department for Transport, Local Government delivery managers and (d) executive support and and the Regions. ODPM then became the Department administration staff in the Highways Agency can be 157W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 158W provided only at disproportionate cost. However, total Chris Mole: The Department for Transport has not figures for each of the last five financial years are as had recent discussions with rail franchisees, or other follows: transport operators, about the way they provide their services to deaf and hard of hearing passengers. However, Financial year PB1-8 improving access to travel for disabled people is an ongoing objective of the Government, and the Department 2003-04 89,314 expects all service providers to consider the needs of 2004-05 114,224 deaf and hard of hearing passengers as required by the 2005-06 182,930 Disability Discrimination Act 1995 (as amended). 2006-07 230,675 2007-08 202,590 The Department for Transport sets out the strategy for improving access to rail transport in ‘Railways for All: The Accessibility Strategy for Great Britain’s Railways’. Ports: British Overseas Territories This strategy anticipates that holders of rail franchises will ensure their services improve access to travel for Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Minister of State, disabled passengers, including those who are deaf or Department for Transport what recent steps have been hard of hearing. taken to strengthen security at seaports in British Overseas Territories. [282319] Railways: Maintenance Paul Clark: The security of seaports in the British Overseas Territories falls within the remit of the Transport Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Security and Contingencies Directorate (TRANSEC) Department for Transport how many rail services of within the Department for Transport. TRANSEC provides each train operating company were (a) planned to run, the Governors and port facility operators in each territory (b) cancelled and (c) not in planned preventative with advice and guidance on port security, based on the maintenance in the last quarter of 2008-09. [283065] globally-adopted International Ship and Port Facility Security Code (ISPS Code). Chris Mole: The number of rail services (a) planned Railway Stations: Disabled to run and (b) cancelled in the last quarter of 2008-09 are shown in the following table by operating company:

Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, Train operating (a) Number of trains (b) Number of trains Department for Transport what recent estimate he has company planned fully cancelled made of the number of mainline railway stations in Arriva Trains Wales 75,583 179 London that do not have full step-free access. [283012] c2c 27,431 189 National Express East 143,254 1,809 Chris Mole: Studies carried out for the Strategic Rail Anglia Authority in 2005 showed that 254 railway stations in Chiltern 25,642 156 London did not provide full step free access. More London Midland 83,202 2,235 detailed information about station facilities is held by First Capital Connect 83,179 2,455 the Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC) First Great Western 112,848 1,796 and is available from the National Rail Enquiries Service National Express East 10,724 172 at Coast http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/search.html Merseyrail 48,687 283 A programme of access audits is currently under way to Northern Rail 202,449 1,302 update this information. Southeastern 130,308 3,569 Southern 180,652 5,294 Stagecoach 141,893 3,161 Railways: Franchises Southwestern Trans Pennine Express 23,883 156 Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Virgin Trains 20,576 896 Department for Transport what requirement for train Crosscountry 22,327 236 carriages to have windows able to be opened by East Midlands Trains 34,929 222 passengers his Department specified in franchise London Overground 32,540 440 agreements. [283042] The Department for Transport does not hold information Chris Mole: There is no requirement for windows on how many rail services of each train operating that can be opened in any franchise agreement. company were not in planned preventative maintenance in the last quarter of 2008-09. Railways: Hearing Impaired Railways: West Midlands Mr. David Anderson: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what recent discussions he has had with (a) holders of rail franchises and (b) Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Minister of State, other transport operators on the provisions they make Department for Transport how much has been spent to for accessibility to their services by the deaf and hard increase rail capacity in the West Midlands since 2005. of hearing. [281823] [282756] 159W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 160W

Chris Mole: The information is not available in the Roads: Construction form requested. Responsibility for delivering capacity enhancements on the railway rests with Network Rail who also fund any works. Mr. Sanders: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what recent research his Government support for the railway, including a Department has (a) evaluated and (b) commissioned breakdown of support by region is available in the on the environmental impact of new road building; and Department for Transport’s annual report. Copies are what guidance his Department has issued to local and available in the Library of the House. regional authorities on the management of such effects. [280732] Road Traffic Mr. Khan: All major road schemes submitted to the Bob Spink: To ask the Minister of State, Department Department for Transport by local authorities or promoted for Transport how many representations his by the Highways Agency are subject to a full assessment Department has received on traffic congestion in town against the Government’s five overarching objectives of centres in each of the last five years; and if he will make safety, environment, economy, integration and accessibility. a statement. [282860] The Highways Agency also has in place a set of advice notes in the Design Manual for Roads and Mr. Khan: The Department for Transport’s records Bridges that deal with the environmental design and reveal that the following numbers of ministerial and management of roads. These advice notes state clearly official correspondence have been received over the last that good environmental design is a matter of respecting five years which have ’traffic congestion in town centres’ the special character of each individual location where within the subject heading: a road improvement may be sited. While this is written with the trunk road system in mind, local highway Number authorities are likely to find it useful for their purposes, too. 2004 16 2005 40 In addition, the Department has commissioned research 2006 27 into valuing transport’s impact on the natural landscape. 2007 47 The results of phases 1 and 2 of the study are reported 2008 17 on the Department’s website at: 2009 8 http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/economics/rdg/landscape/ The Highways Agency has recently released a report, There will have been many more representations to ‘Post Opening Project Evaluation: Meta Analysis’, on the Department on this issue, but it would not be the evaluation of a number of Highways Agency schemes. possible to provide figures for these without A copy of the report can be found at the following disproportionate cost. weblink: http://www.highways.gov.uk/roads/18386.aspx Mr. Goodwill: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what estimate he has made The Highways Agency is also developing an improved of the distance travelled on (a) Highways Agency methodology to account for the changes to the quantity roads and (b) other roads by foreign-registered light of vehicle emissions that affect air quality that can vehicles in the last 12 months. [282889] result from new road schemes. Finally, the Department is collaborating with the Mr. Khan [holding answer 29 June 2009]: It is estimated Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs that foreign registered cars and light goods vehicles to manage research that they have commissioned to travelled 319 million kilometres on Britain’s motorways investigate the health impacts of environmental noise. in 2008, accounting for around 0.4 per cent. of the total distance travelled by these types of vehicles. On other roads in Great Britain, it is estimated that Transport: Essex foreign registered cars and light goods vehicles travelled 1.438 billion kilometres in 2008, around 0.2 per cent. of Bob Spink: To ask the Minister of State, Department the total distance travelled by these types of vehicles. for Transport what representations he has received on The estimates are based on information collected the allocation of funding for the construction of (a) through the Department for Transport’s Vehicle Excise bicycle paths and lanes and (b) footpaths in (i) Essex Duty Evasion survey in June 2008. They have been and (ii) Castle Point in each of the last five years. calculated on the assumption that the rate of foreign [282436] registered vehicles in traffic observed during this month is representative of the rate throughout the year. Mr. Khan: The Department for Transport receives Estimates of foreign registered traffic are split between representations from time to time about the allocation motorways and all other roads, while the Highways of funding for various issues, including the construction Agency is responsible for managing both motorways of bicycle paths, bicycle lanes and footpaths. However, and other major trunk roads in England. Estimates the Department is not aware of any specific representations covering all Highways Agency routes are therefore not on these subjects in relation to Essex or Castle Point. available, and could be obtained only at disproportionate Such representations would generally be made to the cost. local authority in question. 161W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 162W

CABINET OFFICE Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. Breast Cancer: Males I have asked the authority to reply. Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated June 2009: James Duddridge: To ask the Minister for the As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your Cabinet Office how many adult males have been Parliamentary Question asking for what average length of time diagnosed with breast cancer in England in each year jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) claimants resident in (a) Barnsley and (b) Doncaster received JSA in each of the last five years. from 2005. [282925] (282785) Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls The number of people claiming Job Seekers Allowance (JSA) is taken from the Jobcentre Plus administrative system. The within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. length of a claim has been defined as the time between the start of I have asked the authority to reply to the hon. Member. an individual’s claim and that claim ending. Table 1 shows the A copy of their response will be placed in the Library. median length of completed claims during the May count period of the last 5 years. Central Office of Information: Expenditure Table 1. Median length of completed claims (off-flows) of jobseeker’s allowance for claimants resident in Barnsley and Doncaster Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Months with reference to the answer to the hon. Member for May Barnsley Doncaster Blaby on 12 November 2008, Official Report, column 2005 8.5 9.3 759, on public relations, what the reasons are for the 2006 11.0 10.7 difference between the figure of £265 million given in 2007 10.0 12.3 the answer and the figure of £391 million for Central 2008 9.5 9.7 Office of Information (COI) spending on public 2009 12.2 10.8 relations, marketing and advertising in 2007-08 given in Source: the most recent COI annual report and accounts. Jobcentre Plus administrative system. [250300] Regional Planning and Development: South East Tessa Jowell: I refer the hon. Member to answer given to him on 20 April 2009, Official Report, column 352W. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what representations her Department has Central Office of Information: Security received on the consultation process on the South East England Regional Spatial Strategy. [R] [279564]

Danny Alexander: To ask the Minister for the Tessa Jowell: The Cabinet Office received no Cabinet Office how many breaches of security at the representations on the South East England Regional Central Office of Information have occurred in the last Spatial Strategy. five years; and what procedures that agency follows when a breach of security involves the disclosure of Unemployment: Merseyside personal data. [276941]

Tessa Jowell: The information requested falls within Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Minister for the the responsibility of the Central Office of Information. Cabinet Office what the average unemployment rate I have asked the chief executive to reply. among the working age population in (a) Merseyside Letter from Mark Lund, dated June 2009: and (b) Crosby was in each of the last five years. [R] [282522] As Chief Executive of the Central Office of Information (COI), I have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question on the Security Breaches (276941). Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. In the last five years the Central Office of Information (COI) has had no reported breaches of security. I have asked the authority to reply. It is COI policy to report all significant personal data security Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated June 2009: breaches to the Cabinet Office and the Information Commissioner’s As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your Office (ICO). Information on personal data security breaches is Parliamentary Question asking what the average unemployment published on an annual basis in the department’s Annual Report rate among working age population in (a) Merseyside and (b) and Accounts as announced in the Data Handling. Procedures in Crosby was in each of the last five years. (282522) Government Review published on 25th June 2008. The Office for National Statistics compiles unemployment Additionally, all significant control weaknesses including other statistics in line with International Labour Organisation (ILO) significant security breaches are included in the Statement of definitions for local areas from the Annual Population Survey Internal Control which is also published within the Annual (APS). Report and Accounts. Table 1 shows the unemployment rate for people resident in Merseyside and Crosby parliamentary constituency in each of Jobseeker’s Allowance: South Yorkshire the last five years. The latest period for which data are available is October 2007 to September 2008. Unemployment rates are normally provided for people aged 16 and over, rather than people of Jeff Ennis: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office working age, thus estimates provided are consistent with this what the average length of time was for which definition. jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) claimants resident in (a) As these estimates are for a subset of the population in small Barnsley and (b) Doncaster received JSA in each of geographical areas, they, are based on small sample sizes, and are the last five years. [282785] therefore subject to large margins of uncertainty. 163W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 164W

National and local area estimates for many labour market Knife and sharp instrument offences recorded by the police for selected offences, statistics, including employment and unemployment are available 2007-081 from the NOMIS website at: Number http://www.nomisweb.co.uk Wounding or Attempted Wounding with inflicting GBH Table 1: Unemployment rates1 for people resident in Merseyside and Crosby Police force murder intent to do GBH without intent Unemployment rate (percentage) Avon and 38527 12 month period Merseyside Crosby Somerset Bedfordshire 4 67 14 January to December 2004 6.1 2.5 British 0111 January to December 2005 7.0 3.8 Transport January to December 2006 7.0 7.2 Police January to December 2007 7.3 3.6 Cambridgeshire 3 21 16 October 2007 to September 6.9 6.0 Cheshire 1 64 26 2008 Cleveland 4 76 17 1 Number of unemployed people aged 16 and over as a percentage of the Cumbria 2 20 35 economically active population. Source: Derbyshire 2 49 28 Annual Population Survey. Devon and 5 127 45 Cornwall Dorset 0 20 11 Durham 2 53 8 HOME DEPARTMENT Dyfed-Powys 3 31 31 Essex 6 89 10 Community Policing: Enfield Gloucestershire 1 15 4 Greater 20 600 315 Manchester Joan Ryan: To ask the Secretary of State for the Gwent 1 79 8 Home Department what recent assessment he has Hampshire 7 88 108 made of the effectiveness of neighbourhood policing Hertfordshire 8 46 35 schemes in (a) the London Borough of Enfield and Humberside 2 55 34 (b) Enfield North constituency. [282565] Kent 10 94 32 Lancashire 8 138 46 Mr. Hanson: It is for individual police forces and Leicestershire 5 99 25 authorities to ensure the effectiveness of neighbourhood Lincolnshire 0 29 9 policing in their area. The Government will hold forces London, City 132 to account for progress through the single top-down of target we have set them to improve public confidence Merseyside 3 312 52 that crime and antisocial behaviour issues are being Metropolitan 59 878 869 Police tackled locally, and in the light of inspection work by Norfolk 1 22 13 Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC). North Wales 1 56 25 HMIC has inspected every force in England and North 1214 Wales to assess their capabilities in delivering Yorkshire Neighbourhood Policing and Developing Citizen Focus. Northamptonshire 3 83 10 HMIC’s assessment in September 2008 was that all Northumbria 1 140 64 forces, including the Metropolitan Police Service, had Nottinghamshire 5 122 27 met this standard. South Wales 0 333 46 South 6 111 43 Yorkshire Crimes of Violence Staffordshire 1 34 75 Suffolk 2 33 42 Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for the Surrey 6 25 18 Home Department how many reported incidents of Sussex 2 62 84 (a) attempted murder, (b) wounding with intent to do Thames Valley 9 63 30 grievous bodily harm and (c) wounding or inflicting Warwickshire 2 41 14 grievous bodily harm without intent by use of a knife West Mercia 1 43 20 or sharp instrument there have been in each police West Midlands 14 561 370 force area in each year since 1997. [281674] West 10 306 75 Yorkshire Wiltshire 6 43 17 Mr. Hanson: Available information for knife and 1 Includes racially or religiously aggravated wounding or inflicting GBH. sharp instrument offences recorded by the police for Departmental Consultants selected offences are provided for 2007-08 only. Data are not available for previous years. Mr. Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for the Data for 2008-09 will be published on 16 July. It Home Department how much his Department spent on should be noted that GBH offences for 2008-09 will not consultancy contracts in 2008-09. [272583] be comparable with those published for 2007-08. This is due to a change in the clarification rules for Mr. Woolas: In 2008-09, the Home Office and its recording GBH with intent, and a change in the definitional agencies (the UK Border Agency, the Identity and coverage of GBH without intent. Passport Service and the Criminal Records Bureau) 165W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 166W spent £140 million on consultancy services, such as The Home Office has also allocated a total of £3.5 million project management, legal services and assistance with to the nine Government Offices for the regions and the major projects, with a wide range of consultants. This Welsh Assembly for 2009-10 to support local initiatives represents 7 per cent. of Home Office expenditure on to tackle domestic violence. A number of regions have third party goods and services. chosen to allocate specific funding to local initiatives tackling forced marriage in their areas. DNA: Databases Forensic Science Service: Chorley Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department on how many occasions a person Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for the has been arrested but not charged with an offence Home Department when the decision was made on the following their being suspected of a crime as the result proposed closure of the Forensic Science Services of the use of the national DNA database. [281957] Chorley laboratory. [282980]

Alan Johnson: The information requested is not collected. Mr. Alan Campbell: No decision has been made to In 2007-08, there were 37,376 crimes with a DNA close Chorley or any other site. The Forensic Science match. If the National DNA Database (NDNAD) matches Service has shared proposals about the future operational a DNA profile found at a crime scene with that from a site deployment with employees and their representatives known individual, a match report is sent to the police (Trade Unions and Employee Forum). This is part of for further investigation. However, the NDNAD does the on-going collective consultation on the business not hold information on the outcome of the police transformation announced in the written ministerial investigation following the match—for example, whether statement of 8 June 2009. These proposals are subject the person concerned is arrested or charged—as its to consultation and no decisions have been made about purpose is only to match DNA profiles. Chorley or any other site. These figures do not constitute part of National Statistics as they are based on internal management Hillsborough Stadium: Disclosure of Information information. The information has not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols, should be Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for the treated as provisional and is subject to change. Home Department what progress his Department has made in identifying files and documents it holds Entry Clearances relating to the Hillsborough disaster that can be released. [279536] Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many telephone interviews Mr. Alan Campbell: The Home Office, in partnership with visa applicants from (a) Pakistan and (b) with other Departments, is currently developing a Afghanistan have been conducted by entry clearance Government wide approach to the issue in close liaison officers in (i) Islamabad and (ii) Abu Dhabi since with local agencies in South Yorkshire and beyond. 27 October 2008. [280127] Members: Correspondence Alan Johnson: No telephone interviews have been conducted with visa applicants from either country since 27 October. Visa section staff may contact visa Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for applicants to clarify certain aspects of an application, the Home Department when he plans to reply to the and there is routine verification of supporting documents letter of 27 November 2008 from the right hon. which may also result in telephone inquiries being made. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Mr. Mohsin Zafar. [250864] Forced Marriages: Victim Support Schemes Alan Johnson: The then Home Secretary replied to my right hon. Friend on 25 March 2009. Margaret Moran: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what support services his Department funds in each local authority area for Overseas Students: Entry Clearances victims of forced marriage; and if he will make a statement; [282249] Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the (2) what proportion of his Department’s budget for Home Department how many people have been (a) 2009-10 is allocated for support for the victims of prosecuted for and (b) convicted of immigration forced marriage. [282250] offences related to the student visa system in the last 12 months. [279319] Mr. Alan Campbell: Following a successful pilot in 2008, the joint Home Office/Foreign and Commonwealth Alan Johnson: The system used by the UK Border Office Forced Marriage Unit (FMU) has allocated £84,000 Agency to record data relating to prosecutions for to its Domestic Programme fund for 2009-10. Specialist immigration offences does not categorise individuals by organisations were invited in early June to apply for the nature of their stay in the UK. funds for project activities which support delivery of The UK Border Agency would normally seek to the FMUs 2009 and 2010 action plan. The Unit also remove an individual under such circumstances, rather separately funds support and awareness raising activity than to prosecute them, as the former presents a more overseas, including in Pakistan, India and Bangladesh. cost effective alternative. 167W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 168W

Passports Police officer strength by basic command unit, 31 March 20081— Lancashire police force Full-time equivalent Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the BCU2 Police officers Home Department how many applications for passports were found to be supported by birth Lancashire Central 375 certificates which claimed to but did not relate to the Lancashire Eastern 598 applicant in each of the last five years. [281933] Lancashire Northern 439 Lancashire Southern 507 Alan Johnson: From 1 April 2005 to 31 March 2009 Lancashire Western 543 IPS records indicate that there were 492 applications Pennine 572 identified in which an impostor used the genuine birth Central Services 641 certificate of another person to support a passport Total 3,675 application. 1 These figures are based on full-time equivalents that have been This breaks down as follows: rounded to the nearest whole number; due to rounding there may be an apparent discrepancy between totals and the sums of constituent Number items. Figures include those officers on career breaks or maternity/paternity leave. 2 Airport BCUs do not have a population attributed to them. 2005-06 76 2006-07 163 Police community support officer strength by basic command unit, 31 2007-08 122 March 20081—Lancashire police force 2008-09 131 Full-time equivalent Police community support In addition, for the same period IPS records indicate BCU2 officers that 258 instances were identified in which a passport application was supported by a forged, counterfeit or Lancashire Central 52 stolen blank birth certificate. Lancashire Eastern 71 Lancashire Northern 81 This breaks down as follows: Lancashire Southern 70 Lancashire Western 70 Number Pennine 56 2005-06 62 Central Services 1 2006-07 108 Total 400 2007-08 53 1 These figures are based on full-time equivalents that have been 2008-09 35 rounded to the nearest whole number; due to rounding there may be an apparent discrepancy between totals and the sums of constituent These figures do not constitute part of National items. Figures include those officers on career breaks or maternity/paternity leave. Statistics as they are based on internal management 2 Airport BCUs do not have a population attributed to them. information. The information has not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols, should be treated as provisional and is subject to change. Police: Voluntary Work

Police: Lancashire Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what his most recent estimate is of Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for the the number of police volunteers in Greater London. Home Department how many (a) police officers and [283011] (b) police community support officers (PCSO’s) were assigned to duties in each parliamentary constituency Mr. Hanson: At the end of March 2008 there were in the Lancashire County Council area in the latest 2,510 special constables in the Metropolitan Police Service period for which figures are available; how many police and 72 in the City of London Police. officers were assigned to duties in each such constituency in 1997; and how many PCSOs were We do not collect information about the number of assigned to duties in each such constituency in 2003. volunteer police staff or volunteer cadets. [282076]

Mr. Hanson: Police personnel data are not available Road Traffic Offences by parliamentary constituency.Information for Lancashire along with basic command unit (BCU) data for police Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for the officers and police community support officers (PCSOs) Home Department if he will bring forward legislative for 2007-08 is provided in the tables. proposals to make (a) the filming of and (b) the Police strength by police basic command unit was subsequent online publication of video recordings of collected centrally for the first time for the period instances of road traffic violations an offence; and if he beginning April 2002 and is therefore not available for will make a statement. [281783] earlier years. Information on the number of PCSOs in BCUs is not Mr. Alan Campbell: We have no current plans to available for 2003 as it has only been collected since change what can legally be filmed and published on the June 2005. internet. 169W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 170W

Serious and Organised Crime Agency Domestic Violence: National Offender Management Service Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department pursuant to the answer of 16 June Mr. Gerrard: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2009, Official Report, column 197W, on the Serious what programmes to tackle domestic violence are being and Organised Crime Agency, what estimate he has developed within the National Offender Management made of the proportion of the 5,000 persons of interest Service. [282404] resident in the UK. [281835] Maria Eagle: The National Offender Management Alan Johnson: Approximately 95 per cent. of the Service (NOMS) currently delivers three specific accredited Serious Organised Crime Agency’s current persons of programmes to perpetrators of domestic violence—two interest (POI) are recorded as having a UK address. in the community and one in prison. In addition NOMS delivers a range of other accredited programmes that may be appropriate in these cases which address violent JUSTICE and sexual offending. NOMS is undertaking a review of the suite of existing programmes which will help inform Ashwell Prison commissioners and future developments.

Mr. Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Ernst and Young how many prison officers are employed at HM Prison (HMP) Ashwell; and whether any prison officers at HMP Ashwell have been relocated to other prisons Mr. Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what criteria were used to determine when to following the disturbance on 11 April 2009. [273534] commission Ernst and Young to conduct economic Mr. Straw: There are currently 117.5 prison officers research as part of the Legal Services Commission’s employed at HMP Ashwell, two less than the present review of family law legal aid funding; and if he will target staffing figure. The 117.5 are made up of 91 officers, make a statement. [282439] 21 senior officers and 5.5 principal officers. Bridget Prentice: The LSC commissioned the Ernst Since 1 June 2009, 20 officers and three senior and Young research as part of their responsibility as a officers have been carrying out temporary detached commissioning organisation to ensure that the impacts duty at other prisons within the East Midlands region. on client access to family advocacy services are fully The remainder of the unified staff are engaged in understood, and in order to gain a fuller economic normal business running the prison, which still holds understanding of the market for family advocacy. It 204 prisoners in the secure areas of the prison that were was always the LSC’s intention to undertake this research not damaged in the disturbance on 11 April 2009. They alongside the consultation process. The LSC has agreed are additionally continuing the process of clearing up to share the outcome of the Ernst and Young research the establishment, bringing back into use work areas with a number of stakeholders representing legal service damaged during the disturbance, and recovering and providers and will do so shortly. returning prisoners’ property from the damaged areas of the prison to those prisoners that have been The LSC issued the invitation, to tender for the transferred. research contract as soon as possible after the consultation began. Damages Act 1996 Judicial Appointments for England and Wales Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if he will ensure the discount rate for future loss under the Damages Act 1996 reflects the real rate of return Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice for index-linked government stock and equity; and if how many Judicial Appointments Commission staff at he will make a statement. [282499] each Civil Service grade were on secondment from his Department and its predecessor in each of the last Bridget Prentice: The discount rate under the Damages three years. [282554] Act 1996 is kept under review. It would not be appropriate for the Government to give any indication of how or Mr. Straw: The breakdown of secondees from the when this is done, as this would generate speculation Ministry of Justice and its predecessor Departments to that could significantly affect settlements in personal the Judicial Appointments Commission by civil service injury cases. grade is set out in the following table:

Number SCS Grade 6/7 SEO HEO EO AO Total

3 April 2006 4 9 6 13 26 27 85 31 March 2007 3 10 7 10 20 18 68 31 March 2008 2 10 10 13 18 12 65 31 March 2009 16389431 31 May 2009 15279226 171W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 172W

The Judicial Appointments Commission publishes staff (comprising 18 staff on fixed-term JAC contracts, headline information about its staffing in its Annual 39 seconded or loaned to the JAC, and one agency Reports, which can be found on their website at: staff). http://www.judicialappointments.gov.uk/ The Judicial Appointments Commission publishes headline information about its staffing in its annual Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice reports, which can be found on their website at: when he last discussed the criteria for judicial http://www.judicialappointments.gov.uk/ appointments with the chair of the Judicial Appointments Commission. [282556] Legal Aid

Mr. Straw: I have regular bilateral meetings with the Mr. Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for chairman of the JAC at which the criteria for judicial Justice if he will make it his policy to undertake a full appointments are sometimes discussed. The last of these impact assessment before implementing reforms meetings was held on 13 May 2009. relating to (a) family law legal aid and (b) legal aid client criteria arising from the Legal Service Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Commission’s review of family law legal aid funding; how many applications for the position of recorder the and if he will make a statement. [282438] Judicial Appointments Commission has received in each of the last three years. [282578] Bridget Prentice: An initial Impact Assessment was conducted and published alongside the Family Fees Mr. Straw: No recorder selection exercises were run consultation paper “Family Legal Aid funding from in the financial years 2006-07 and 2007-08. In 2008-09 2010”. The LSC is currently modelling the proposed the number of applications received in respect of recorder final scheme and accompanying Impact Assessment, selection exercises is as follows: which will be published with the final policy proposals Recorder Northern, North Eastern and Wales: 433 eligible on family fees. This follows consideration of the consultation applicants; responses and the commissioning of the research by Recorder Midland: 366 eligible applicants; and Ernst and Young on the family advocacy market to Recorder South East: 981 eligible applicants. provide additional data for the Impact Assessment. The The Judicial Appointments Commission today released LSC has agreed to share the outcome of the research diversity data in respect of these exercises save for the with a number of stakeholders representing legal service Recorder South East exercise which has yet to complete. providers and will do shortly. These data can be found on their website at: The LSC is committed to conducting Impact http://www.judicialappointments.gov.uk/ Assessments on all its public consultations on policies and adheres to its own Impact Assessment Code of Judicial Appointments for England and Wales: Practice. A copy of the Code can be found on its Consultants website.

Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how much the Judicial Appointments Commission has (1) what estimate he has made of the proportion of the spent on external consultants in each of the last three population who will be eligible for legally-aided years. [282580] representation in the Crown Court once means-testing is re-introduced; [282669] Mr. Straw: The Judicial Appointments Commission (2) what estimate he has made of the proportion of has spent the following sums on consultants in each of the population eligible for legally-aided representation the financial years: in magistrates’ courts. [282670]

£ Mr. Straw: Every defendant appearing before the Crown court for trial once the new means testing scheme 2006-07 112,000 is introduced will be granted a representation order, 2007-08 87,000 subject to the submission of a completed application 2008-09 154,000 form. We estimate that just over three-quarters of defendants will receive legal aid without needing to Judicial Appointments for England and Wales: make any contribution. Further information is available Manpower in the “Impact Assessment”, published alongside the Government’s response to the consultation on the principle Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice of Crown court means testing. how many (a) permanent and (b) temporary staff the Defendants in the magistrates court need to pass Judicial Appointments Commission employs. [282555] both the Interests of Justice test and the means test to qualify for legal aid. Recent estimates suggest that Mr. Straw: On 31 March 2009, the Judicial Appointments around half of the population of England and Wales Commission employed 43 permanent staff (JAC employees) would be financially eligible to receive legal aid in the and 62 temporary staff (comprising 15 staff on fixed-term magistrates courts if they were charged with an offence JAC contracts, 44 seconded or loaned to the JAC from that satisfied the Interests of Justice test. The majority public sector bodies, and 3 agency staff). On 31 May of defendants who are not legally-aided in the magistrates 2009, the Judicial Appointments Commission employed courts are ineligible because their cases do not meet the 47 permanent staff (JAC employees) and 58 temporary Interests of Justice criteria. 173W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 174W

Mentally Disturbed Offenders The Sexual Offences Act 2003 significantly modernised and strengthened the laws on sexual offences in England Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice and Wales to provide extra protection to children from how many prisoners have been transferred from prison sexual exploitation. This makes direct comparisons with to a secure mental health unit in each of the last five previous legislation very difficult. Many new offences years. [282569] created by the Act will not have a direct equivalent under the old legislation. Mr. Straw: The information requested is given in the These data are on the principal offence basis. The following table. figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal Number transferred offence for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences, the 2004 890 offence selected is the one for which the heaviest penalty 2005 907 is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two 2006 967 or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for 2007 941 which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2008 997 Court proceedings data for 2008 will be available in National Offender Management Service the autumn of 2009. Number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts for offences relating to child abuse1 England and Wales, by police force area, 2004-071, 2, 3, 4 Mr. Gerrard: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Police force how many staff with a (a) prison and (b) probation area 20045 2005 2006 2007 background are employed in the Department of Violence, Extremism and Psychopathy within the Avon and 66 110 88 81 Somerset National Offender Management Service. [282403] Bedfordshire 27 46 37 32 Cambridgeshire 34 58 41 56 Maria Eagle: While there is no specific Department Cheshire 44 80 62 81 of Violence, Extremism and Psychopathy, there is a City of —1—— team within NOMS Interventions and Substance Misuse London Group which focuses on interventions in these three Cleveland 27 43 58 60 areas. There are currently 17 staff and of these 10 have a Cumbria 21 46 32 48 prison background, two probation, two have worked Derbyshire 49 100 86 89 directly for both settings, three have neither. The majority Devon and 21 65 94 110 of these staff have experience of delivering work which Cornwall spans both services. Dorset 18 29 33 28 Durham 49 67 72 68 Mr. Gerrard: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Essex 52 58 54 24 how many people working at the National Offender Gloucestershire 18 37 40 45 Management Service Head Office have a background Greater 159 234 248 245 in (a) a probation service and (b) a prison service. Manchester Hampshire 105 134 129 195 [282405] Hertfordshire 40 65 82 39 Maria Eagle: There are no centralised records held Humberside 48 55 61 53 on the background of employees. These records may be Kent 47 39 33 49 held locally and to collect this for the National Offenders Lancashire 81 159 149 155 Management Service headquarters would incur Leicestershire 49 66 78 78 disproportionate cost. Lincolnshire 52 59 54 51 Merseyside 49 60 60 90 Offences against Children: Prosecutions Metropolitan 356 495 483 452 Police Norfolk 22 44 41 53 Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for North 39 42 69 59 Justice how many prosecutions for offences relating to Yorkshire child abuse there have been in each local authority area Northamptonshire 18 30 24 11 since 1997. [280667] Northumbria 56 121 122 129 Nottinghamshire 68 91 92 80 Claire Ward: The number of persons proceeded against South 61 89 85 101 at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts for Yorkshire sexual offences against children, 2004 to 2007 is shown Staffordshire 91 89 91 72 in the table. As there is no specific offence of “child Suffolk 28 59 60 48 abuse,” statistics are only provided where the age of the Surrey17503944 victim can be identified as a child from the description Sussex27737979 of the offence. The term “child abuse” describes harm Thames 40 122 112 139 caused to a child arising from emotional, physical, Valley sexual abuse or neglect caused by a parent, guardian, Warwickshire 13 30 22 34 carer, or stranger. A number of other offences such as West Mercia 60 88 88 98 offences against the person including physical assault West 308 286 332 293 may frequently be used by the police to charge offenders. Midlands 175W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 176W

Number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts for offences All of the guidance provided by Interventions and 1 1, 2, 3, 4 relating to child abuse England and Wales, by police force area, 2004-07 Substance Misuse Group is regularly reviewed and revised Police force area 20045 2005 2006 2007 in order to provide the most recent best practice and advice in the substance misuse field. The manuals associated West 117 159 130 140 with accredited drug treatment programmes are reviewed Yorkshire annually and revised additions are promulgated throughout Wiltshire 25 54 38 34 the prison estate. Dyfed-Powys 41 25 24 26 Gwent 51 79 52 54 The revised NOMS Drug Strategy was published In North Wales 50 56 49 25 June 2009. The strategy includes a comprehensive list of supporting guidance documents. Additionally, the strategy’s South Wales 120 117 108 130 ″ England and 2,664 3,810 3,731 3,778 accompanying communication strategy Getting the Wales Message Across″ includes an Interventions and Substance 1 Includes the following offences: Misuse Group Approved Drug Publications list for Causing or allowing the death of a child or vulnerable person. prisons and details suitable guidance produced by other Cruelty or neglect of children. Abandoning children under two years. agencies relevant to drugs misuse and treatment. Getting Sexual assault of a male child aged under 13. the Message Across includes a commitment to review Rape, attempted rape of a male or female aged under 13 or under 16. the composition of the list annually and identify gaps to Sexual assault of a female child aged under 13. Sexual activity with a male or female child aged under 13. be filled. A copy of the NOMS Drug Strategy and its Sexual activity with a male or female aged under 16. supporting papers is available in the House of Commons Familial sexual offences of a male or female child aged under 13. Library and online at Abuse of children aged under 18 through prostitution and pornography. Abuse of trust sexual offences against a child aged under 18. www.justice.gov.uk/publications/noms-drug-strategy-2008- Meeting a male or female aged under 16 following sexual grooming. 2011.htm 2 Covers offences which identify the victim as a minor at the time the offence was committed. Prison Sentences 3 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Hazel more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory Grove of 16 June 2009, Official Report, columns maximum penalty is the most severe. 256-64W, on prison sentences, how many of the 14 4 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted prisoners recalled following release from an from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police indeterminate sentence for public protection were forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those recalled for alleged re-offending; and what the (a) data are used. original offence and (b) alleged further offence was in 5 The Sexual Offences Act came into force on 1 May 2004. each case. [282533] Source: Office for Criminal Justice Reform—Evidence and Analysis Unit. Ministry of Justice. Mr. Straw: There are five cases where the recall was for alleged reoffending as shown in the table. It is for the Pleural Plaques independent Parole Board to determine whether an offender sentenced to an indeterminate sentence of Mr. Clapham: To ask the Secretary of State for imprisonment for public protection should be released Justice, if he will publish the medical reports the once his tariff has expired. Government has requested from the (a) Chief Medical Officer and (b) Industrial Injuries Advisory Council as Index offence Alleged reoffending part of its consultation on pleural plaques. [283503] Wounding GBH Actual Bodily Harm x 2 Bridget Prentice: The Government commissioned reviews Assault by Beating x 2 of the medical evidence on pleural plaques from the Criminal Damage x 1 chief medical officer and the Industrial Injuries Advisory Council alongside their consultation paper on pleural Wounding GBH Assault plaques. I have deposited copies of these two reports in the Libraries of both Houses. Robbery Affray The Government received 224 responses to their consultation paper. A full summary of the responses will be published together with the Government’s response Robbery Kidnap to the consultation as soon as possible. Threats to Kill Assault Prisons: Drug Abuse Assault by Penetration Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Driving Offences what guidance his Department has issued on drug abuse and treatment for drug abuse in prisons; and Arson Affray whether he plans to revise that guidance. [282623] Prison Service: Probation Maria Eagle: The National Offender Management Service’s Interventions and Substance Misuse Group Mr. Gerrard: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice provides guidance to prison staff and prisoners about how many staff with a background in (a) the Prison drugs misuse and treatments. This includes various Service and (b) the Probation Service are employed in prison service orders and instructions, manuals, booklets, the Offender Management Group of the National leaflets, videos, DVDs and toolkits. Offender Management Service. [282399] 177W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 178W

Maria Eagle: The Offender Assessment and Management Maria Eagle: Training provision does not fall into Group currently has 34 staff in post of whom 11 are on these specific categories. However, training for prison secondment from the probation service. Four staff in staff covering these areas is provided by the following the group have a background in HMPS one of whom courses: Introduction to Risk Assessment and Management has also worked in the probation service. Of the remaining (IRAM), Managing Indeterminate Sentencing and Risk 19, one has previously served in the probation service. (MISaR) and Offender Assessment System (OASys). Prisoners In 2010, it is proposed to introduce a formal training programme for HM Prison Service offender supervisors covering all aspects of offender management. Mr. Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many times in each prison in England and Wales Prisons: Mental Health Services (a) police have been called in to the prison and (b) arrests have been made in the prison following violence, Mr. Gerrard: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice disorder or other incidents in each of the last 12 years; how many psychologists were employed by (a) HM and what the reason for the (i) request for police Prison Service in (i) 2001 and (ii) 2004 and (b) the attendance and (ii) arrest was in each case. [282425] National Offender Management Service in 2008. [282401] Maria Eagle: Data on police attendance at prison incidents is only recorded by the National Offender Maria Eagle: There were 343 full-time equivalent Management Service (NOMS) for incidents of concerted psychologists employed in the Prison Service on 31 March indiscipline and hostage taking. Data on arrests are 2001, 518 in 2004 and 653 across the National Offender only recorded by NOMS for drug related incidents, Management Service in 2008. These figures include bomb threats, firearm related incidents and breaches of associated workers, who are involved with programmes perimeter security. None of these data can be produced but are not psychologists. Psychological assistants are in the form requested without incurring disproportionate not included. cost. Prisons: Probation Prisoners: Foreigners Mr. Gerrard: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice who the members are of the Programme Support Audit how many foreign national prisoners serving Group within the Interventions and Substance Misuse indeterminate sentences for public protection have been Group of the National Offender Management Service; released upon the expiry of their tariff in each of the and which of them have a (a) prison and (b) last five years. [282671] probation background. [282402]

Mr. Straw: There have been two releases of foreign Maria Eagle: There are 13 staff in the Programme national prisoners serving indeterminate sentences of Support and Audit team within Interventions and Substance imprisonment for public protection since 4 April 2005. Misuse Group including eight operational and five They were released after expiry of their tariff on the administrative staff. All are from a prison background. direction of the independent Parole Board, one in 2007 The names of the staff concerned have not been included and one in 2009. Both were deported on release. to respect the rights of the individuals concerned. Prisoners: Personal Property Probation

Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for with reference to the answer to the hon. Member for Justice what the principal duties are of probation staff Harborough of 8 July 2008, Official Report, columns seconded to work in jails in England and Wales. 1526-28W, on prisoners: personal property, what the [282381] equivalent figures for 2008-09 are. [282553] Maria Eagle: Probation staff of varying grades may Mr. Straw: A breakdown of the compensation the be seconded to prisons in the public and private sector National Offender Management Service has paid, during under service level agreements (SLA) between the governor 2008-09, to prisoners for damaged or lost property is set of each establishment and the chief officer of the local out as follows. In obtaining the information the National probation area. Each SLA is negotiated and tailored to Offender Management Service does not distinguish between meet the needs of each establishment. prisoners’ lost or stolen property. The duties of seconded probation staff therefore vary 2008-09 Number of cases Compensation (£) according to the SLA and the grade of the officer. However, they typically centre on offender management, Lost property 1,876 106,570.76 including the assessment and management of risk; Damaged property 255 13,727.89 preparation for release; and the determination of licence conditions. Seconded probation staff may also deliver Prisons: Training or manage accredited programmes in the prison.

John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what training prison staff receive in (a) Justice how many probation staff who have been offender management, (b) parole assessment and (c) seconded to prisons in England and Wales have had risk assessment. [282380] those secondments cancelled. [282516] 179W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 180W

Maria Eagle: Probation staff working in prisons in Mr. Straw: The National Offender Management Service the public and private sector are supplied under service (NOMS) holds data on the number of offenders convicted level agreements (SLA) between the governor or director of serious further offences for the years 2006-07 and of each establishment and the chief officer of the local 2007-08, recorded in accordance with the requirements probation area. Each SLA is negotiated and tailored to of probation circulars 8/2006 and 41/2006. meet the needs of each establishment. The requirement for probation staff both in respect of grade and overall The following table contains a break-down, by type number is subject to annual review. of supervision, of those offenders convicted of serious Information on the number of probation officers further offences, who were included in the Offender working in prisons under such arrangements are not Management Caseload Statistics (OMCS) 2007 for 2006-07 held centrally and could be obtained only at and 2007-08. NOMS does not hold this information for disproportionate cost. 2004-05 and 2005-06. I will send the hon. Gentleman the breakdown by supervision type in respect of the Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2008-09 figures (and updated figures for 2007-08) after (1) how many serious offences in each category of OMCS 2008 has been published on 31 July 2009. offence were committed by offenders on court-order It should be noted that the figures are based on the probation supervision in each of the last five years; year in which NOMS was notified that the offender was [282672] charged with the serious further offence, not the year in (2) how many serious offences in each category of which the offender were subsequently convicted. The offence were committed by offenders on post-release table includes the probation caseload figures for 2007 probation supervision in each of the last five years. and 2008, for reference. [282673]

Offenders convicted of serious further offences, by offence and supervision type, recorded by NOMS PPU in accordance with PC8/2006 and 41/2006 1 April 2006 to 31 March 2008 2006-07 2007-08 Court Serious further offence conviction Court orders Post release orders Post release

Abduction 1 000 Aggravated burglary (section 10 of the Theft Act 1968) 2 0 11 9 Aggravated theft 19 12 1 1 Armed robbery 0 012 Arson (section 1 of the Criminal Damage Act 1971) 18 3 22 6 Assault by penetration (section 2 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003) 3 5 10 3 Assault of a child under 13 by penetration (section 6 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003) 3 1 2 1 Attempt to commit murder or a conspiracy to commit murder 8 6 5 3 Burglary with Intent to Inflict grievous bodily harm (section 9 of the Theft Act 1968) 1 0 2 1 Burglary with intent to commit rape (section 9 of the Theft Act 1968) 0 0 0 1 Carrying a firearm with criminal intent (section 18 of the Firearms Act 1968) 0 0 0 0 Causing death by careless driving when under influence of drink or drugs (section 3A of the 1 110 Road Traffic Act 1988) Causing death by dangerous driving (section 1 of the Road Traffic Act 1988) 6 5 5 1 Causing or inciting a child to engage in sexual activity (section 10 of the Sexual Offences Act 0 011 2003) Causing or inciting a child under 13 to engage in sexual activity (section 8 of the Sexual Offences 0 011 Act 2003) False imprisonment 16 5 14 11 Intercourse with girl under thirteen (section 5 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956) 0 0 1 0 Kidnapping 89146 Manslaughter 25 4 13 2 Murder 56 18 33 14 Other explosives offences 1 000 Other offences against the person 2 310 Other serious child sex offences 5 110 Other serious violent offence 6 471 Possession of firearm at time of committing or being arrested for offence specified in schedule 1 0 172 to that Act (section 17(2) of the Firearms Act 1968) Possession of firearm with Intent to cause fear of violence (section 16A of the Firearms Act 0 001 1968) Possession of firearm with intent to endanger life (section 16 of the Firearms Act 1968) 1 0 5 4 Rape (section 1 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956) 40 14 22 6 Rape (section 1 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003) 0 4 5 2 Rape of a child under 13 (section 5 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003) 1 2 5 2 Robbery or assault with intent to rob (section 8 of the Theft Act 1968) 7 5 7 4 Serious firearms offences (SFO) 23 10 7 4 Sexual activity with a child (section 9 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003) 23 6 16 4 Sexual activity with a child family member (section 25 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003) 1 0 0 3 181W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 182W

Offenders convicted of serious further offences, by offence and supervision type, recorded by NOMS PPU in accordance with PC8/2006 and 41/2006 1 April 2006 to 31 March 2008 2006-07 2007-08 Court Serious further offence conviction Court orders Post release orders Post release

Sexual assault (section 3 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003) 0 0 1 0 Sexual assault of a child under 13 (section 7 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003) .8 4 13 6 Wounding with intent to cause grievous bodily harm (section 18 of the Offences against the 148 49 120 43 Person Act 1861) Total serious further offence convictions 433 172 354 145 England and Wales-caseload by supervision type 1148,126 126,110 2149,282 230,270 1 As at 31 March 2007. 2 As at 31 March 2008

Probation: Hampshire FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Israel Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what the ratio of (a) male to female offenders 11. Martin Linton: To ask the Secretary of State for and (b) male to female probation staff in each age Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent range is in the Hampshire probation area. [281382] discussions he has had with the government of Israel on the expansion of Israeli settlements in Palestine. Maria Eagle: The ratio of male to female offenders [282698] on the Hampshire probation area’s caseload as at 31 December 2008, by age group, was as follows: Mr. Ivan Lewis: The UK’s position is clear. Following the Israeli Prime Minister’s speech on 14 June 2009, my Age group Male to female ratio right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said to Mr. Netanyahu that the UK expects more on the issue of settlements: a 18 to 20 9:1 complete freeze in settlement construction, in line with 21 to 24 10:1 Israel’s Roadmap commitments. 25 to 29 7:1 30 to 39 7:1 19. Ms Dari Taylor: To ask the Secretary of State for 40 to 49 6:1 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent 50 to 59 9:1 discussions he has had with the Israeli Government on 60 and over 40:1 the middle east peace process. [282708] All 8:1 Mr. Ivan Lewis: The UK welcomes the Israeli Prime The ratio of male to female probation staff as at Minister’s support for a two-state solution. His speech 31 March 2008, by age group, was as follows: on 14 June was a positive step towards making further progress on the peace process. However, more is needed Age group Male to female ratio from Israel on the issue of settlements: a complete 18 to 20 — freeze in settlement construction, in line with Israel’s 21 to 24 1:7 Roadmap commitments. We also emphasize that the 25 to 29 1:4.5 Palestinians should continue to be prepared to engage 30 to 39 1:3 in negotiations with Israel towards achieving a two-state solution. 40 to 49 1:2.5 50 to 59 1:1.5 EU-Pakistan Summit 60 and over 1:1 All 1:2.5 13. Richard Ottaway: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the These figures have been drawn from administrative outcome of the most recent EU-Pakistan summit was; IT systems which, as with any large scale recording and if he will make a statement. [282701] system, are subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. Mr. Ivan Lewis: The first ever EU-Pakistan Summit on 17 June 2009 marked a step change in EU engagement Probation: Wales with Pakistan. The Summit established a long-term strategic partnership to tackle issues of violent extremism, security, and democratic governance. The agreed outcomes Mr. Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice were: a comprehensive package of trade measures; a whether he plans to introduce reporting centres for total package of ¤129 million for humanitarian assistance; Tier 3 and Tier 4 offenders in Wales. [283087] and greater EU co-operation on counter-terrorism.

Maria Eagle: There are no plans to introduce reporting European Union centres for Tier 3 and 4 offenders currently. The establishment of contact centres for Tier 2 offenders is 14. Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for currently being rolled out and these will include provision Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent from probation service staff and partner agencies. discussions he has had with his EU counterparts on 183W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 184W prospects for institutional change in the European Presidential Election: Ukraine Union; and if he will make a statement. [282702] 21. Mr. Dunne: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Bryant: The December 2007 European Council Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assistance conclusions stated that the Lisbon Treaty would mark the Government plan to give to international missions the end of institutional debate. Heads of governments monitoring the conduct of the forthcoming attending said: presidential election in Ukraine. [282710] “The Lisbon Treaty provides the Union with a stable and lasting institutional framework. We expect no change in the Chris Bryant: Ukraine will go to the polls for presidential foreseeable future.” elections on 17 January 2010. The Government will be The June 2009 European Council provided the assurances offering financial support to the Organisation for Security that Ireland needed to move forward on the Lisbon and Co-operation in Europe’s Office for Democratic Treaty. The Irish government have said that there will be Institutions and Human Rights (ODIHR) monitoring a second referendum in October 2009. mission. The offer will be calibrated according to ODIHR’s Afghanistan requirements and our expectation to provide up to 10 per cent. of observers for such missions. 15. Mr. Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Pakistan assessment he has made of the political situation in Afghanistan. [282703] 22. Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Mr. Ivan Lewis: Afghanistan remains one of the assessment he has made of the political situation in UK’s top foreign policy priorities. The key political Pakistan. [282711] focus for Afghanistan in 2009 is the presidential and provincial council elections which will take place on Mr. Ivan Lewis: The relationship between Pakistan’s 20 August 2009. We are actively working in support of main political parties has stabilised since March. It is the Afghans, the UN and the North Atlantic Treaty critical that Pakistan’s politicians continue to work Organisation’s International Security Assistance Force together to address Pakistan’s key challenges. We are to help ensure these elections are successful. encouraged by the significant cross party support for the Government of Pakistan’s efforts to bring security Bagram Detention Facility and stability to Swat and respond to the humanitarian crisis. We continue to work to help develop a strong, 16. Ann Clwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for stable and democratic Pakistan. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has had with his US counterpart on recent Iran allegations of prisoner abuse at the US detention facility at Bagram Air Force Base in Afghanistan. [282704] Mr. Syms: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has Mr. Ivan Lewis: We have not had recent discussions received on developments in Iran following the recent on this issue. We have previously discussed allegations presidential election; and if he will make a statement. of prisoner abuse at Bagram with our US allies. It is [282700] vital that all detainees are treated humanely. It is right that the International Committee of the Red Cross have Mr. Ivan Lewis: We deplore the violent response of access to those detained at the Bagram detention facility. the Iranian authorities to post-election demonstrations and the severe restrictions placed on the media. We have I note that President Obama has set in motion a made clear that it is for Iran’s people to choose their comprehensive review of detention policy and practice, own government. It is essential that the Iranian authorities including in Afghanistan. We welcome this and await its investigate fully the allegations that have been made outcome. about the election. EU Budget We will continue to monitor the situation closely.

20. Mr. Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Gauke: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment he discussions he has had in the General Affairs Council has made of developments in Iran’s nuclear on means for reducing the size of the EU budget; and if programme; and if he will make a statement. [282707] he will make a statement. [282709] Mr. Ivan Lewis: We remain deeply concerned about Chris Bryant: There have been no recent discussions its nuclear programme. As the latest International Atomic at the General Affairs Council on means for reducing Energy Agency report on Iran made clear, Iran is still the size of the EU budget. The Commission were mandated not co-operating fully with the agency and is increasing by the December 2005 European Council to produce a its enrichment capabilities contrary to the requirements Budget Review White Paper by the end of 2009. Our of five UN Security Council Resolutions. We have contribution to the review was outlined in HM Treasury’s made clear that Iran can enjoy the benefits of nuclear publication, “Global Europe: Vision for a 21st Century energy but must reassure the international community Budget.” that its intentions are exclusively peaceful. 185W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 186W

Colombia Embassies: Correspondence

Mr. Kilfoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for John Barrett: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what targets have he has made of the likely effects on levels of poverty been set in relation to the time taken by British High and social inequality in Colombia of the Commissions to reply to correspondence from hon. implementation of the proposed free trade agreement Members; and what proportion of correspondence between the EU and Colombia. [282626] from hon. Members received a reply from the British High Commission in Islamabad within the target time Chris Bryant: Free trade agreements can help alleviate in the latest period for which figures are available. poverty and inequality when combined with others [282724] measures. While it is difficult accurately to predict the Chris Bryant: Correspondence received in the Foreign precise effects of free trade agreements, the European and Commonwealth Office is dealt with under Cabinet Commission is currently undertaking a Sustainability Office guidelines which state that: All Departments Impact Assessment of the EU-Andean negotiations, a should set targets for replying to correspondence from process which the UK strongly supports. This will provide MPs. These targets (which may be different to the a guide to its likely economic, social and environmental targets set for other types of correspondence) will be impact. The draft final assessment report is expected in published in the annual correspondence report co-ordinated July 2009. by the Cabinet Office. Individual Departments’ targets for routine correspondence from MPs should be a Colombia: Military Aid maximum of 20 working days. We do not have details of correspondence for specific overseas posts. Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when his John Barrett: To ask the Secretary of State for Department began to keep for monitoring purposes a Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what targets are record of Colombian security force personnel who have set in relation to the time taken by British consulates to received UK training in Colombia. [282493] reply to correspondence from hon. Members. [282731] Chris Bryant: Correspondence received in the Foreign Chris Bryant: Our embassy at Bogota has records of and Commonwealth Office is dealt with under Cabinet Colombian Security Forces who have received direct Office guidelines which state that: All Departments UK training in Colombia from 2000-01. This framing should set targets for replying to correspondence from includes that required to counter the illegal drugs trade. MPs. These targets (which may be different to the We do not disclose the details of this engagement as to targets set for other types of correspondence) will be do so would compromise operational effectiveness and published in the annual correspondence report co-ordinated endanger the lives of British and Colombian staff involved. by the Cabinet Office. Individual Departments’ targets Our engagement is carefully maintained to ensure that for routine correspondence from MPs should be a it cannot contribute to any human rights abuses. maximum of 20 working days.

Departmental Food International Atomic Energy Agency

Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for and Commonwealth Affairs what percentage of the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent (a) meat, (b) fruit and (c) vegetables procured by his assessment he has made of the merits of increasing the Department in the last 12 months was produced in UK donations to the nuclear security fund under the the UK. [281943] budget of the International Atomic Energy Agency for the purposes of increasing that agency’s verification Chris Bryant: A second report on the proportion of capacity. [281901] domestically produced food used by Government Mr. Kidney: I have been asked to reply. Departments and also supplied to hospitals and prisons under contracts negotiated by NHS Supply Chain and The UK reviews annually its ability to make voluntary HM Prison Service was published in November 2008, contributions to the IAEA’s extra-budgetary nuclear covering the year from 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2008. security fund. We made the most recent such payment This report and the first one covering the previous year of £3.5 million in March this year, making a total of can be found at: £5.5 million over the last three years. The Nuclear Security Fund covers assistance to states to address http://www.defra.gov.uk/farm/policy/sustain/procurement/ awareness.htm nuclear security issues rather than verification. The latter is handled by the IAEA regular budget, the UK The report gives details of the proportion of individual contribution to which is set by the IAEA in accordance meat, fruit and vegetable categories purchased. with UN allocation procedures. Although it is too early to show a trend, the report indicates that the amount of domestically produced Iran: Politics and Government food consumed by Government Departments in England is increasing. 65 per cent. of the food procured by the Mr. McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Office in 2007-08 was Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he produced domestically. They expect to publish a third has received of the handling of protests following the report at the end of 2009. recent presidential elections in Iran by the Iranian 187W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 188W authorities; and what assessment he has made of Saudi Arabia: Foreign Relations the implications for UK foreign policy of recent events in Iran. [282808] Peter Luff: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his most recent Mr. Ivan Lewis: My right hon. Friend the Foreign assessment is of UK-Saudi Arabia relations; and if he Secretary has made clear that we deplore the violence will make a statement. [282699] against those seeking to protest peacefully in Iran. We have also expressed serious concern following the wholly Mr. Ivan Lewis: Relations between the UK and Saudi unjustified expulsion of two members of our embassy, Arabia are strong. Saudi Arabia is a key regional ally. and the recent arrests of a number of our local staff. Our long history of friendship, understanding and Some have since been released and we are working hard cooperation covers regional and international issues, to secure the release of those who are still being held. counter terrorism, education, energy security, trade and In terms of the foreign policy implications we have investment. It is a broad-based and important relationship, stressed the importance of Iran engaging with the which the Government are committed to maintaining international community on all issues of concern, in and developing. particular Iran’s nuclear programme, in the spirit of Somalia: Piracy mutual respect and full recognition of Iran’s international obligations. Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for he has made of trends in the level of threat to shipping Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent from pirates off Somalia in the last 12 months; and if discussions he has had with the government of Iran on he will make a statement. [282665] the conduct of the Presidential election; and if he will make a statement. [283089] Paul Clark: I have been asked to reply. Although piracy in the Gulf of Aden and off the Mr. Ivan Lewis: Since the election my right hon. coast of Somalia continues to be a problem, various Friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary international military operations established in the region have both made clear that the election was a matter for have had success in countering it. the people of Iran, but that there were concerns raised The main trend in the level of threat to shipping off by some of the candidates needed to be addressed by Somalia in the last 12 months is based upon the annual the Iranian authorities. monsoon pattern, when there is a marked deterioration The Foreign Secretary has also made this point in the of sea conditions between June to September and December course of a telephone discussion with Iranian Foreign to March and a corresponding drop in the number of Minister Mottaki. piracy attacks. Members: Correspondence The authority on piracy off Somalia is the Maritime Security Centre (Horn of Africa) (MSC(HOA)) and the Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Coordination Centre of the EU Naval Force. MSC(HOA) Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he plans to make up-to-date advice and guidance to seafarers available reply to the letter dated 9 April 2009 from the right on their website hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to www.mschos.org Mr. S. Hussain. [278839]

David Miliband: I replied to my right hon. Friend on WOMEN AND EQUALITY 29 June 2009. Pensions Nuclear Weapons Lynne Featherstone: To ask the Minister for Women Mr. Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Equality what representations she has received on and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make it his policy levels of (a) pensions and (b) other forms of support to support a nuclear weapons convention as a means to to (i) Gurkha service personnel and (ii) UK-recruited the elimination of nuclear weapons. [282663] service personnel who left the armed forces before 1997; and if she will make a statement. [281752] Mr.IvanLewis[holding answer 29 June 2009]: The UK is committed to the long-term goal of a world Michael Jabez Foster: The Government Equalities without nuclear weapons and is actively working towards Office has not received any representations on this creating the conditions to make that goal a reality. We matter. believe that the principal means to achieve this is through the non-proliferation treaty (NPT), resulting in a reinforced sense of shared responsibility for both nuclear and COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT non-nuclear weapons states. Community Relations At the moment we believe it would be premature to press for a Nuclear Weapons Convention, which be Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for unlikely to make any headway and would distract attention Communities and Local Government what assessment from efforts to bolster the NPT. We do nonetheless his Department has made of the effect of the believe there may be a role for a Nuclear Weapons Government’s Respect agenda on implementation of Convention in the future when the time comes to establish the Government’s policy on community cohesion. a final ban. [282390] 189W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 190W

Mr. Malik: The Commission on Integration and Ms Rosie Winterton: There is no revaluation Cohesion identified a close relationship between perceptions taking place. The Valuation Office Agency is only required of antisocial behaviour and community cohesion. So to review council tax bands when a property sells if it the Respect Agenda will have made an important has previously been improved. There were approximately contribution to work to build cohesion in local communities. 22.7 million dwellings in England in 2008-09, of which 8,406 (0.04 per cent.) were reviewed and moved into a Council Tax higher council tax band in that year, and 33,725 (0.15 per cent.) were reviewed but remained in the same band. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government with reference to Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for the answer of 24 October 2006, Official Report, column Communities and Local Government whether the 1794W, on council tax, how many dwellings have value Valuation Office Agency’s new Geographical significant code data for the (a) GG code and (b) OS Information System will be used to assist with council code. [282394] tax valuations and revaluations. [282953]

Ms Rosie Winterton: Out of 22.7 million dwellings, as Ms Rosie Winterton: The proposed GIS application at 23 June 2009, the number of dwellings in England is intended to support a variety of the VOA’s valuation that had value significant code data for (a) GG code (a responsibilities, including council tax valuations. There garden, where one is not usual for the locality) was is no council tax revaluation taking place. 6,073 and (b) OS code (a patio, which is value significant; for example, a substantial terrace) was 5,143. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Council Tax: Appeals Communities and Local Government with reference to the answer to the hon. Member for Beckenham of 6 October 2008, Official Report, column 298W, on Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for council tax: valuation, if he will place in the Library a Communities and Local Government what copy of the minutes of each meeting, redacting information is provided to the public by his elements relating to advice to Ministers on the Department on procedures for challenging council tax formulation and development of Government policy. banding of their properties. [282752] [283021] Ms Rosie Winterton: The Department publishes a leaflet on council tax, “Council Tax—a guide to valuation Ms Rosie Winterton: I refer the hon. Member to the banding and appeals” which gives information on how answer given to her by my hon. Friend the Member for to appeal against the council tax banding of your Oldham, East and Saddleworth (Mr. Woolas), on 27 April property. It is available to download from CLG’s website 2006, Official Report, column 1285W. at: http://www.local.communities.gov.uk/finance/ctax/ ctaxvalappeal.pdf Departmental Lost Property Hard copies can also be requested, from DCLG Publications, PO Box 236, Wetherby, West Yorkshire Mr. Blunt: To ask the Secretary of State for LS23 7NB; telephone: 0870 1226236. Communities and Local Government how many laptop In addition, information on appealing against your computers belonging to (a) his Department and (b) council tax band can be found on the VOA website at: its agencies have been lost or stolen in the last five http://www.voa.gov.uk years. [281066] and the VTS website at: http://www.valuation-tribunals.gov.uk Mr. Malik: The Department for Communities and Local Government was created on 5 May 2006. The Council Tax: Valuation following table identifies the number of laptops belonging to the Department, its predecessor Department and its Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for agencies that have been stolen in the last five years. Communities and Local Government when the next revaluation for council tax purposes will take place. Number of laptops stolen [282384] 2004-05 2 2005-06 7 Ms Rosie Winterton: We have repeatedly made it clear 2006-07 7 that the council tax revaluation in England has been 2007-08 9 postponed and that we will not consider the matter 2008-09 1 again before 2010-11.

Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for The official data on each of the laptops were not Communities and Local Government how many encrypted, because none of the information was classified. dwellings in England were moved into a higher council However, each laptop was password protected. tax band as a result of a revaluation of the property This answer does not include the Government offices when the property was sold in the last year for which for the English regions who carry out functions on figures are available. [282952] behalf of 10 Government Departments. 191W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 192W

Departmental Pay eQuality Networks

John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government which (a) Communities and Local Government what funding (a) sections of his Department and (b) non-departmental his Department, (b) each of its executive agencies and public bodies for which his Department is responsible (c) the Audit Commission has provided to eQuality have requested money saved from efficiency savings to Networks in the last 12 months; when the funding was be used for increased pay in their 2009 pay offers to provided; how much was provided; and for what staff. [282539] purposes. [282794]

Mr. Malik [holding answer 26 June 2009]: The Mr. Malik: I can confirm that no funding has been Department for Communities and Local Government provided to eQuality Networks in the last 12 months by and its agencies are not proposing to request money either Communities and Local Government, its Executive saved from efficiency savings to be used for increased agencies, the Housing Corporation, the Audit Commission pay in their 2009 pay offers to staff. or English Partnerships. Equity Departmental Public Consultation Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State Communities and Local Government what recent for Communities and Local Government what assessment he has made of the level of negative equity consultations have been carried out by his Department in the housing market in each region. [282813] since July 2007. [279342] Mr. Ian Austin: Communities and Local Government Mr. Malik: The number of consultations carried out do not produce its own estimates of negative equity. by Communities and Local Government between 9 July The Council of Mortgage Lenders have estimated the 2007 and 25 June 2009 is 124. In line with the code of number of owner-occupiers in negative equity, including practice on consultation, Communities and Local by region, as at the end of 2008. These are available at: Government publishes all its consultation documents http://www.cml.org.uk/cml/filegrab/ on its website at: Homeownerhousingequitythroughthedownturn.pdf?ref=6360 www.communities.gov.uk Green Belt

Emergency Services: Overseas Aid Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what guidance Mr. Andrew Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State has been given to regional planning bodies on the for Communities and Local Government pursuant to production of environmental impact assessments for the answer of 14 January 2009, Official Report, column proposals in regional spatial strategies which direct a 834W, on overseas aid: emergency services, what review or deletion of an allocation of green belt land. assessment he has made of the effect of the decision [282386] that the UK Fire and Rescue Service will organise the overseas search and rescue capability for disaster Mr. Ian Austin: Guidance on reviewing green belt response on the service’s ability to respond to natural boundaries is set out in Planning Policy Guidance Note disasters in the UK. [282167] 2: Green Belts, issued in 1995. Guidance on environmental assessment of Regional Spatial Strategies is included in Mr. Malik: The overseas deployment of resources to ‘Sustainability Appraisal of Regional Spatial Strategies assist in an emergency is organised by UK International and Local Development Documents’, issued in 2005. Search And Rescue (UKISAR). UKISAR are teams of Regional Spatial Strategies set the framework for green Search and Rescue specialists drawn from the UK Fire belt policy, including the direction of long-term development and Rescue Services and voluntary organisations. Any in a region. They may include policies to review green overseas deployment of UKISAR is undertaken on belts, but it is for the local planning authorities to behalf of the Department For International Development determine any detailed changes to green belt boundaries. (DFID). Green Belt: Dorset The UKISAR equipment and resources including specialist staff are in addition to the Urban Search and Mr. Walter: To ask the Secretary of State for Rescue equipment and resources provided within the Communities and Local Government what steps his New Dimension programme to equip the FRS to respond Department is taking to protect (a) the green belt and to UK incidents. (b) open green spaces in Dorset. [282471] Therefore the overseas deployment of UKISAR will not impact on the capacity of the UK Fire and Rescue Mr. Ian Austin: The information is as follows. Service to provide an appropriate Urban Search and Green belt Rescue response to incidents in the UK. We have made it clear that Government remain In addition, on receipt of a request for overseas committed to the key principles of the green belt and is deployment a further assessment of the risk to the UK not changing green belt policy as set out in PPG2. is completed by DFID and CLG (via the Office of the However, this does not mean that green belt boundaries Chief Fire and Rescue Adviser) prior to the approval should be set in stone. Nationally the green belt continues for UKISAR deployment. to grow. 193W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 194W

Open green spaces administration costs of the Homes and Communities The Government’s planning policies on open space Agency and each of its predecessor bodies under each are set out in planning policy guidance note 17 (PPG budget sub-heading were in each of the last three years. 17) “Planning for Open Space, Sport and Recreation [270688] (2002)”. It recognises that well designed and implemented planning policies for open space, sport and recreation are fundamental to delivering broader Government Mr. Ian Austin: The predecessor bodies for the Homes objectives. and Communities Agency were English Partnerships, Local planning authorities in Dorset, like in the rest the investment arm of the Housing Corporation, and of the UK, need to take these policies into account in the Academy for Sustainable Communities. A range of the preparation of their development plans. PPG2 and departmental programmes also transferred to the Agency PPG 17 may also be material considerations in deciding from Communities and Local Government. individual planning applications. The administration costs of the Homes and Communities Homes and Communities Agency: Finance Agency (HCA) and former English Partnerships (EP) and the Academy for Sustainable Communities (ASC) Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for are shown in the following table: Communities and Local Government what the

£ million 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 ASC (12 EP ASC EP ASC EP (8 months) HCA (4 months) months)

Staff 29.0 1.0 30.6 1.2 22.2 17.7 1.2 Other staff costs 0.0 0.4 0.0 0.1 0.0 0.0 0.2 Redundancy 0.6 0.0 1.7 0.0 1.0 0.0 0.0 Premises 5.3 0.0 5.3 0.0 4.1 2.1 0.0 Facilities 0.0 0.1 0.0 0.2 0.0 0.0 0.2 Communications 0.6 0.0 0.6 0.0 0.6 0.3 0.0 Printing and records 0.6 0.0 0.7 0.0 1.1 0.4 0.0 Staff welfare 0.3 0.0 0.3 0.0 0.2 0.3 0.0 Office expenses-other 0.4 0.0 0.4 0.0 0.3 0.1 0.0 IT costs 1.6 0.0 1.8 0.0 1.8 1.0 0.1 Communications and PR 1.3 0.0 1.5 0.0 1.3 0.9 0.0 Uninsured losses 0.0 0.0 0.1 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 Research/feasibility studies 0.0 0.0 0.1 0.0 0.0 0.1 0.0 Evaluation 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 Audit fees 0.2 0.0 0.2 0.0 0.1 0.0 0.0 Recruitment 0.4 0.0 0.3 0.0 0.6 0.2 0.0 Travel and subsistence 2.9 0.1 2.8 0.2 2.5 1.3 0.1 Training 0.9 0.0 1.0 0.1 0.7 0.4 0.0 Professional fees 1.6 0.0 2.3 0.0 2.7 2.2 0.0 Interest paid 0.1 0.0 0.1 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 Board 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.1 General 0.0 0.1 0.0 0.1 0.0 0.0 0.2 Total 45.7 1.7 49.5 1.9 39.2 26.9 2.2 Notes: 1. Figures are subject to rounding. 2. Figures for 2008-09 are subject to audit. Figures for the ASC are on a twelve month basis and figures for the final four months have not yet been disaggregated from the HCA costs (four months) as provided. 3. The administration costs for EP for 2007-08 and 2008-09 includes transitional costs which were for the HCA set up. The HCA administration costs for 2008-09 also include an element associated with transition. 4. The administration costs for the ASC are exclusively related to staff, subsistence, facilities. Costs on communications, for example, would be through the ASC programme.

The operating budget for the HCA was calculated on 2008-09, are not directly comparable with the figures the basis that the HCA inherited the existing operating provided for the HCA for the last four months of baselines of its predecessor organisations and programmes 2008-09. with no additional funding being provided (excluding the interim transitional set up costs). Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for The administration costs of the investment arm of Communities and Local Government what the the Housing Corporation could be disaggregated only administration costs of the predecessors of the Homes at disproportionate cost. As a result, the figures shown and Communities Agency were as a percentage of (a) for 2006-07, 2007-08, and the first eight months in income and (b) grant-in-aid in each of the last three years. [274862] 195W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 196W

Mr. Ian Austin: The predecessor bodies for the Homes because the affordable housing figures also include and Communities Agency were English Partnerships, intermediate rent and low cost home ownership, as well the investment arm of the Housing Corporation, and as social rent. the Academy for Sustainable Communities. A range of departmental programmes also transferred to the Agency Jeff Ennis: To ask the Secretary of State for from Communities and Local Government. Communities and Local Government how many The following table provides the administration costs properties had been sold under the HomeBuy Direct as a percentage of income and grant in aid for English Scheme in (a) Barnsley and (b) Doncaster at the latest Partnerships and the Academy for Sustainable Communities date for which figures are available. [282789] between 2005-06 and 2007-08. John Healey: There have been four properties sold Percentage under HomeBuy Direct in Barnsley and one in Doncaster. Academy for English sustainable Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for partnerships communities1 Communities and Local Government how many Year ended 31 March 2006 completed Social Homebuy transactions there have been in each local authority area in each year since the Administration costs as 10 12 percentage of income scheme’s inception. [282870] Administration costs as 7n/a percentage of grant in aid Mr. Ian Austin: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Year ended 31 March 2007 given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, Administration costs as 11 28 South (Margaret Beckett) to the hon. Member for percentage of income Buckingham (John Bercow) on 7 May 2009, Official Administration costs as 15 n/a Report, columns 390-92W. percentage of grant in aid Year ended 31 March 2008 Local Authority Challenge Fund Administration costs as 11 27 percentage of income Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Administration costs as 19 n/a Communities and Local Government what criteria percentage of grant in aid apply to local authorities for them to be eligible for n/a = Not applicable. 1 The Academy for Sustainable Communities did not receive grant in aid. assistance under the Local Authority Challenge Fund. [282421] It is not possible to disaggregate the figures for the investment arm of the Housing Corporation without Mr. Ian Austin: The £100 million funding for the incurring disproportionate costs. Figures for the Housing scheme announced in the Budget to build new social Corporation can be found in its annual report and housing is available for all local authorities provided accounts. they are building on their own land to at least Sustainable Building Code Level 3, though higher code levels will be Housing: Low Incomes encouraged. Schemes must also offer value for money. Authorities must have submitted their bids either by the Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for end of July or the end of October this year and completed Communities and Local Government (1) how many schemes by March 2011. affordable homes have been built in Tamworth Local Government constituency since 2005; [282757] (2) how many social rented homes have been built in Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Tamworth since 2005. [282758] Communities and Local Government what assessment he has made of the implications for the use of Mr. Ian Austin: Information on new homes built for wellbeing powers by local councils of the ruling of the social rent and affordable housing is not available by Court of Appeal in the case of Risk Management constituency. The following table shows the number of Partners Limited v. Council of the London Borough of social rent and affordable homes built in Tamworth Brent and others; and if he will bring forward local authority, from 2005-06. legislative proposals for a general power of competence for local councils. [282517] 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 Ms Rosie Winterton: We are still considering what Social rent new 01020 build steps, if any, may be appropriate in the light of this All affordable 01020judgment. new build Source: Local Government Finance: East Midlands Homes and Communities Agency Investment Management System (IMS), and local authority returns to CLG. Mr. Todd: To ask the Secretary of State for Not all social rented or affordable housing is provided Communities and Local Government what Specified by new build completions, as some supply can come Capital Grant has been provided to each local from acquisitions. For example, an additional 10 affordable authority in the East Midlands in each year since 2001; homes were acquired in Tamworth in 2005-06; these are what bids each authority has made to meet its not included in the table. The social rent figures obligation to provide disabled facilities grant in each differ from the number of affordable homes provided, such year; and if he will make a statement. [282634] 197W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 198W

Mr. Ian Austin: The Government regard the Disabled Local Government: Pensions Facilities Grant programme as an important means to help disabled and older people continue to live as Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for independently as possible by having their homes adapted. Communities and Local Government what the level of That is why the Government have more than doubled (a) employee and (b) employer contribution to the the funds available for the programme from £57 million Local Government Pension Scheme, as a percentage of in 1997 to £158 million in 2008. In February 2008 the the employee’s salary is, for each of the different Government announced the removal of the 60:40 match options within the scheme. [282750] funding requirement, therefore the 2008-09 planned expenditure table represents central Government’s Ms Rosie Winterton: The rate of contributions paid contribution towards Disabled Facilities Grant. by employees who are members of the Local Government Local authorities in England report information on Pension Scheme is prescribed in Regulation 3 of the the expenditure for Disabled Facilities Grants planned Local Government Pension Scheme (Benefits, Membership for the next financial year through the annual Housing and Contributions) Regulations 2007 (SI 2007 No 1166, Strategy Statistical Appendix (HSSA) returns. Expenditure as amended). data are available for mandatory Disabled Facilities The rate of contribution paid by employers who Grants. Usually expenditure data for discretionary Disabled participate in the Scheme is determined at each triennial Facilities Grants has been recorded with other grants valuation, the last being in March 2007. Details of and loans and there is no breakdown available. contribution levels for each individual employer are not Expenditure data for mandatory and discretionary held centrally but a summary of recent triennial valuation Disabled Facilities Grants were reported together for exercises undertaken by the Society of County Treasurers 2001-02. These planned figures are recorded on the can be found at: HSSA returns for the following financial year. Planned http://cipfa.org.uk/panels/pensions/download/ expenditure figures include any payment planned to be 2007_LGPS_Valuation_Survey_Results.pdf paid as an instalment in that financial year. Individual Scheme administering authorities can provide Specified Capital Grant also includes Private Sector details of contribution levels. Renewal and Regeneration grant. Allocations of Private Sector Renewal and Regeneration grant can only be Markets provided for the period since 2006. Prior to 2006-07, local authorities were provided with Supported Capital Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Expenditure allowances for the renewal of private sector Communities and Local Government what recent housing combined with that for their own stock. Private assessment he has made of the role of street markets in sector renewal expenditure totals cannot be disaggregated local economies. [282763] until 2006-07. A table with this information for the East Midlands Mr. Ian Austin: The information is as follows: has been deposited in the House Library. “Planning Policy Statement 6—Town Centres” acknowledges the role of street markets: Local Government Finance: ICT “Street and covered markets (including farmers’ markets) can make a valuable contribution to local choice and diversity in Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for shopping as well as the vitality of town centres and to the rural Communities and Local Government if he will ensure economy”. that the information contained in local spending Draft “PPS4—Planning for Prosperous Economies”, reports is published in a format suitable for (a) underlines this. syndication and (b) mashing via XML feed. [282747] In March 2009 CLG and DEFRA issued a joint Ms Rosie Winterton: Local spending reports are available statement to the Select Committee on Retail Markets: on the Communities and Local Government website, “The Government recognises the valuable contribution that and there are no plans to amend the way information in street, covered and farmers’ markets can make to local choice and diversity in shopping, as well as to the vitality of town centres and existing reports is made available. A consultation, which the wider rural economy.” ended on 15 May 2009, considered how the reports should develop. The Government will consider all the The 2009 CLG report “Looking After Our Town representations submitted and we will publish our response Centres” refers to the contribution street markets can later this year. play in vibrant town centres. In May 2009 the then the Under-Secretary of State Local Government Services: Complaints for Communities and Local Government, (Mr. Wright) met with the National Association of British Market Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Authorities to hear about the role markets play in local Communities and Local Government if he will make it economies. his policy to collect figures for the number of complaints received by local authorities on the National Skills Academies: Thurrock standards of their services. [282814] Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for Ms Rosie Winterton: It is for each local authority to Communities and Local Government what recent ensure it has in place its own robust systems for handling discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for complaints, including recording data about complaints, Business, Innovation and Skills on the establishment of as recommended in the guidance on running a complaints the National Skills Academy for Creative and Cultural system issued by the local government ombudsman. Skills in Thurrock is progressed. [282470] 199W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 200W

Mr. Malik [holding answer 29 June 2009]: The Thames A table giving details of the gross revenue to be raised Gateway Skills Envoy, Sir David Melville, who reports from non-domestic rates in 2009-10 by each of the 326 jointly to Communities and Local Government and billing authorities in England has been placed in the Business, Innovation and Skills ministers, recently met Library of the House. Geoff Russell, Chief Executive of the Learning and Skills Council, to discuss investment in skills in the Non-Domestic Rates: Essex Thames Gateway. Sir David emphasised to Mr. Russell the important contribution investment in skills in the Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Thames Gateway makes to the Government’s objectives Communities and Local Government (1) how many for the area, in particular holistic regeneration in places businesses in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point receive such as Thurrock. small business rate relief; [282846] The National Skills Academy for Creative and Cultural (2) what estimate he has made of the number of Skills has submitted a proposal to the Learning and businesses in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point which Skills Council seeking capital grant support for a proposed qualify for small business rate relief but do not claim it. new training centre. The proposal is now subject to a [282847] prioritisation exercise being conducted by the council. An announcement about this is expected shortly. Ms Rosie Winterton: Castle Point borough council reported that the number of businesses receiving small Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006 business rate relief was 625 at 31 December 2006, the latest date for which data are available. At the same date, the number of businesses in Essex receiving small Mr. Atkinson: To ask the Secretary of State for business rate relief was 11,426, excluding figures for Communities and Local Government what recent Southend-on-Sea and Thurrock unitary authorities. assessment he has made of the effect on biodiversity of the implementation of the provisions of section 40 of We have not made an estimate of the number of the Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act businesses in Castle Point or Essex which qualify for 2006; and whether his Department has issued recent small business rate relief but do not claim it. guidance to local authorities in respect of applications Ordnance Survey: Public Relations to create (a) byways open to all traffic and (b) restricted byways. [283010] Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much Huw Irranca-Davies: I have been asked to reply. Ordnance Survey spent on external public relations in My Department has commissioned a study to review each of the last three years; and how much it will pay the impact of the Natural Environment and Rural (a) 3 Monkeys Communications and (b) Target under Communities Act section 40 biodiversity duty. its contracts with them. [282391] This study, by Entec, will comprise a large scale survey of public bodies this summer, follow-up interviews Mr. Ian Austin: Expenditure by Ordnance Survey with a smaller sample of bodies and views from other with external public relations organisations in the last stakeholders. It is expected to report in November this three years was: year. The steering group includes representatives from DEFRA, Natural England, Devolved Administrations, £ local authorities and non-governmental organisations. 2006-07 66,445 A publication called “Making the Best of Byways”, 2007-08 25,470 published by DEFRA in 2005, provides advice on managing 2008-09 69,721 the different sorts of traffic on byways. In addition, DEFRA published guidance entitled “Regulating the 3 Monkeys Communications and Target have recently Use of Motor Vehicles on Rights of Way and Off pre-qualified to provide consumer sector public relations Road”, which was sent to all local highway authorities. services under call-off arrangements. Payments to these We believe this is the first step in providing information companies under these arrangements will depend upon to local authorities, the police and Community Safety the nature and quantity of work commissioned from Partnerships on getting the most out of existing legislation, each company during the duration of these arrangements. and to encourage the formation of local partnerships. Recreation Spaces Non-Domestic Rates Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government pursuant to the Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for answer of 11 May 2009, Official Report, column 517W, Communities and Local Government how much is on recreation spaces, whether his Department’s green expected to be raised in gross revenue from business spaces database holds information on (a) public rates in (a) England and (b) each local billing gardens and (b) gardens of residential properties. authority in England in 2009-10. [282951] [283022]

Ms Rosie Winterton: Local authorities reported that Mr. Ian Austin: The green spaces database holds: they expect the gross revenue (before deductions for Information on public gardens from the English Heritage reliefs and collection costs) to be raised from non-domestic “Register of Parks and Gardens of Special Historic Interest”. rates in 2009-10 in England to be £22.473 billion. This can include other designated landscapes such as town squares. 201W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 202W

Residential gardens information from the Generalised Land Use Database (2005) categorised ‘Gardens’. This is based on £ million publicly available Ordnance Survey data. 2008-091 2007-08 2006-07 Regional housing pot: LA supported 272 288 340 Regional Planning and Development: East of England capital expenditure allocations ALMO supported borrowing 896 926 782 Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for allocations Communities and Local Government what strategic LSVT gap funding 123 79 32 environmental assessments were produced for (a) the Affordable housing programme: 2,625 2,029 1,921 East of England Regional Spatial Strategy and (b) the capital investment South East Regional Spatial Strategy. [282872] Disabled facilities grant 146 127 121 Regional housing pot: private sector 347 437 388 Mr. Ian Austin: Both the Regional Spatial Strategies renewal: capital grants for the South East and East of England Regions underwent Housing market renewal 356 370 315 sustainability appraisals as required by Section 5(4) of 1 Figures for 2008-09 are current estimates. the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004. The sustainability appraisal incorporates the requirements Social Rented Housing: Essex of the European Directive on Strategic Environmental Assessment. Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Regional Planning and Development: South East Communities and Local Government how many representations his Department has received from (a) Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for individuals and (b) social housing tenants in (i) Essex Communities and Local Government when the South and (ii) Castle Point on (A) a further stock transfer East Regional Spatial Strategy will next be reviewed. ballot and (B) a transfer of housing stock to registered [282871] social landlords; and how many such representations were in favour of a housing stock transfer to registered Mr. Malik: As the South East England Regional social landlords. [280454] Spatial Strategy was published recently, the focus now is on implementing it. However, reviews of the policies in Mr. Ian Austin: During the last five years there have the regional spatial strategy on minerals and Gypsies, been two housing stock transfers to registered social Travellers and travelling showpeople are under way. The landlords in Essex, at Braintree and Rochford. The regional planning body will need to consider when to Department received five representations from social do a full review against the backdrop of emerging housing tenants against the housing stock transfer proposals legislation for integrated regional strategies. My officials in Braintree. The Department did not receive any will discuss with them a project plan for the review over representations in respect of the Rochford housing stock the coming months. transfer. Right to Buy Scheme The Department received four representations in 2008 from social housing tenants in Castle Point in relation Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for to the council’s proposed housing stock transfer. The Communities and Local Government for what representations did not comment on a further stock purposes revenue collected from Right to Buy receipts transfer ballot. None of the representations received in each of the last three years has been allocated. were in favour of housing transfer stock. [282628]

Mr. Ian Austin: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Social Rented Housing: Islington given on 2 June 2009, Official Report, columns 457-58W. The housing receipts (including Right to Buy) Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for surrendered to the Exchequer are not hypothecated to Communities and Local Government how many specific policy areas but, together with other resources, properties he expects to be (a) completed and (b) contribute towards the overall fiscal package within purchased for social rent in the London Borough of which departmental public expenditure programmes Islington in (i) 2009-10 and (ii) each of the next four are agreed as part of the spending review process. years. [283092] Receipts retained by Communities and Local Government (CLG) are used to support its housing and Mr. Ian Austin: The forecast completions for social planning capital programme expenditure. The following rented homes approved to date for the National Affordable table sets out the elements of CLG housing capital Housing Programme in Islington are: programme in the last three years, and the housing receipts (including Right to Buy) received by CLG. Forecast completions 2009-10 164 £ million 2010-11 310 2008-091 2007-08 2006-07 2011-12 188 Housing receipts received by the 160 694 839 2012-13 27 Department 2013-14 67

Housing expenditure Information is not available on projections of social Major repairs allowance 1,241 1,277 1,311 rented properties to be purchased in Islington. 203W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 204W

Social Rented Housing: Tamworth Urban Areas

Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many (a) Communities and Local Government what research his local authority and (b) housing association homes in Department has evaluated on the social effects on local Tamworth met the decent homes standard in each of areas of prosperous town centres. [282637] the last five years. [282759] Mr. Ian Austin: The main sources of research, which Mr. Ian Austin: The information requested is provided my Department has considered during the course of its in the following table. work on town centres, include: “Vital and Viable Town Centres: Meeting the Challenge”— Social sector non-decent dwellings in Tamworth URBED, 2004, HMSO; Local authority RSL “Smaller Towns Report: Delivering retail-led renaissance in As at 1 towns and smaller cities”—UCL, 2004, BCSC; April each year Non-decent All stock Non-decent All stock “The Role and Vitality of Secondary Shopping”—CBRE, 2004, The National Retail Planning Forum (sponsored by 2004 1,996 4,891 n/a n/a BCSC Education Trust, Marks & Spencer and the ODPM); 2005 1,371 4,729 218 1,347 “Policy Evaluation of the Effectiveness of PPG6”—CBRE, 2006 1,356 4,679 65 1,373 January 2004, ODPM; 2007 439 4,613 90 1,407 “The Lyons Inquiry into Local Government, Place-shaping: a 2008 429 4,590 79 1,467 shared ambition for the future of local government, Final Sources: Report”—Sir Michael Lyons, March 2007; 1. Annual returns, from all LAs that own social housing stock, to Communities “A Balance of Trade”, Report of the Commission on Retail and Local Government. 2. Annual return from registered social landlords as at 31 March each year. Conservation to the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, RSR stock figures include owned general needs, supported housing and housing March 2007; for older people, and non-decent stock is reported on this basis. “Clone Town Britain, the loss of identity on the nation’s high Stop Notices: Travelling People streets”—New Economics Foundation, September 2004; “Ghost Town Britain”—New Economics Foundation, 2005; Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for “High Street Britain 2015”—House of Commons All-Party Communities and Local Government what guidance Parliamentary Small Shops Group, 2006; his Department has issued on whether stop notices can “Mixed Use Development: Practice and Potential”—DTLR, be used against temporary dwellings erected by March 2002, HMSO; Travellers which are not caravans. [282482] “Managing Urban Spaces in Town Centres—Good Practice Guide”, Chesterton for the Association of Town Centre Mr. Malik: Guidance on the use of stop notices is Management (sponsored by DOE, Scottish Enterprise, Boots the Chemists, Marks & Spencer). contained in Annex 3 of “ODPM Circular 10/97: Enforcing planning control: legislative provisions and procedural We have also evaluated and taken account of similar requirements”. The circular states that a stop notice work produced by stakeholders such as individual retailers, may be used to prohibit the use of land as a site for a Friends of the Earth, Accessible Retail and the Association caravan occupied by any person as his or her own main of Convenience Stores. residence. A stop notice cannot prohibit the use of any building as a dwelling house. The Department has not issued guidance on whether stop notices can be used TREASURY against temporary dwellings. Council Tax: Valuation Office Agency

Temporary Accommodation: Cleveland Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he plans to implement the Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for recommendation of the Valuation Office Agency’s Communities and Local Government how many (VOA) recent framework review of a statutory households were living in temporary accommodation information gateway between the VOA and billing in Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland authorities for council tax valuations. [282393] constituency at the latest date for which figures are available. [282903] Mr. Timms: The Government are considering the recommendation for a statutory information gateway. Mr. Ian Austin: Information about English local housing authorities’ actions under the homelessness legislation Departmental Buildings (Part 7 of the Housing Act 1996) is collected at local authority level, and published by the Department in the Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer quarterly Statistical Release on Statutory Homelessness what (a) rules and (b) procedures apply to (i) the sale (available both in the Library and via the CLG website): by Departments of property they own and (ii) the allocation of any proceeds from the sale. [282985] www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/statistics/ homelessnessql2009 Mr. Byrne [holding answer 29 June 2009]: All central The quarterly release includes a supplementary table Government Departments were required to publish an showing key information at local authority level. The Asset Management Strategy (AMS) around the time of latest temporary accommodation figures reported by all the 2007 Comprehensive Spending Review. Departmental local authorities (including Middlesbrough), as at 31 March capital expenditure limits are agreed at spending reviews 2009, can be found in column X of this table: and set net of the capital income that Departments are www.communities.gov.uk/documents/statistics/xls/1251701.xls able to retain in capital budgets, as set out in AMSs. To 205W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 206W incentivise efficiency in asset management, Departments depositors with the UK branch of Landsbanki and the are able to retain up to 20 per cent. more than the London Scottish Bank in accordance with the scheme forecast capital income to fund further investment. Any rules. further retention of income is considered on a case-by-case The FSCS is ordinarily financed by levies on the basis by the Treasury, with the aim of encouraging financial services industry collected in accordance with participation in wider market activities and disposal of the scheme rules. However, in order for the FSCS to surplus assets. make the above payments the Treasury has provided These arrangements are set out in the Consolidated loans to the FSCS. Budgeting Guidance issued annually by the Treasury, Details of the above compensation payments including which is available at: Treasury’s loans to the FSCS are set out in the Budget www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/psr_bc_consolidated_budgeting report published on 22 April 2009. The amount outstanding on the Treasury’s loans to the FSCS as at 31 March Departmental Plants 2009 will be published in the Treasury’s Resource Accounts for 2008-09. Grant Shapps: To ask the Chancellor of the The FSCS also paid additional amounts on behalf of Exchequer how much his Department spent on pot the Government and the Icelandic deposit-guarantee plants in (a) 2007-08 and (b) 2008-09. [280022] scheme to ensure that retail depositors with the UK branch of Landsbanki and the London Scottish Bank Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Treasury spent £12,812 in were fully compensated. Funds to meet this expenditure 2007-08 and £12,564 in 2008-09 on the provision, supply have also been provided to the FSCS, by the Treasury. and maintenance of potted plants displayed in the common areas of 1 Horse Guards Road, including the Individual Savings Accounts: Merseyside external courtyards, the reception of the building and some office spaces. Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the Departmental Research proportion of residents of (a) Merseyside and (b) Crosby who have individual savings accounts. [282523] Mr. Sanders: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what research his Department has (a) commissioned Sarah McCarthy-Fry: HM Revenue and Customs and (b) evaluated on the relationship between the can only provide the analysis of the proportion of enforcement of fiscal rules and levels of public debt. residents in Merseyside and Crosby who have Individual [282675] Savings Accounts (ISAs) at disproportionate cost. However, regional ISA statistics are published on the HMRC Mr. Byrne: Analysis of the performance of the fiscal website at: framework is provided in “The Government’s fiscal http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/isa/table9_12.htm framework”, HM Treasury, November 2008. Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander Equitable Life Assurance Society Mark Williams: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will establish an inquiry into the events Exchequer what recent discussions he has had with (a) leading to and following the failure of Kaupthing Equitable Life pensioners, (b) representatives of the Singer and Friedlander (Isle of Man); and if he will company, (c) the Parliamentary Ombudsman and (d) make a statement. [282657] others on Equitable Life . [276959] Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I refer the hon. Member to the Isle of Man (KSF IOM) is not a subsidiary of KSF in answergivenon10June,Official Report, column 904W. the UK, but of the Icelandic parent company. Oversight of KSF IOM is the responsibility of the Isle of Man’s Financial Supervision Commission and therefore the Financial Services Compensation Scheme question of a review would be primarily a matter for the Isle of Man Government. Colin Challen: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) which organisations have received Loans: Government funding from the Financial Services Compensation Scheme; and how much each has received; [282506] Mr. Sanders: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (2) which organisations have provided funding for what research he has (a) commissioned and (b) the Financial Services Compensation Scheme; and how evaluated on the conditions necessary for the lowering much each has provided. [282507] of borrowing costs; and what steps his Department is taking to reduce the cost of Government borrowing. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Financial Services [282656] Compensation Scheme (FSCS) was required to make payments to Abbey National and ING Direct in order Mr. Byrne: The Government’s debt management to transfer retail deposits, up to the FSCS deposit objective is to minimise, over the long term, the cost of compensation limit, from Bradford and Bingley and the meeting the Government’s financing needs, taking into UK subsidiaries of certain Icelandic banks. In addition, account risk, while ensuring that debt management the FSCS is paying compensation directly to retail policy is consistent with the aims of monetary policy. 207W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 208W

The Government sets the UK Debt Management Office Mr. Byrne: The Shareholder Executive acts as adviser (DMO) an annual remit to meet its financing requirements to HMT with respect to the Operational Efficiency consistent with this policy. Programme (OEP) and leads the review process for Further details can be found in the “Debt and reserves individual assets. This is the case with Met Office and management report 2009-10” published alongside the other trading funds. Both Ministers and officials have Budget, and is available on: met, and will continue to meet, with private sector http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/bud_bud09_debtreserves.htm stakeholders as part of the OEP process.

Members: Correspondence Pensions

John Barrett: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr. Willetts: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Exchequer when the Child Benefit Office in (1) what projections for UK pensioner income from Washington plans to reply to the correspondence from funded pensions and savings underlie the projections the hon. Member for Edinburgh West of 29 April and for pension credit expenditure in Table 4.1 on page 36 10 June 2009 on his constituent Miss Laura Grieve. of the Long-term Public Finance Report of March [282973] 2008; [282220] Mr. Timms: The Child Benefit Office replied to the (2) what the breakdown is of the different hon. Member on 25 June 2009. components of state pension expenditure identified in footnote 1 to Table 4.1 on page 36 of the Long-term Non-Domestic Rates Public Finance Report of March 2008. [282221]

Mr. Letwin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr. Byrne: A breakdown of the components of the what assessment he has made of the effect on small and state pension expenditure projections shown in the Long- medium-sized businesses of the ending of transitional term Public Finance Report and information on the relief for business rates from April 2009 under the underlying assumptions is published on the Department Non-Domestic Rating (Chargeable Amounts) England for Work and Pensions website at Regulations 2004. [282158] http://www.dwp.gov.uk The Long-term Public Finance Report is based only Ms Rosie Winterton: I have been asked to reply. on the potential impact of demographic change on the I refer the right hon. Member to the answer given to public finances over the coming decades, and does not the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr. Hollobone) on 2 make assumptions on future changes to the levels of June 2009, Official Report, column 145. savings or pension contributions. Non-Domestic Rates: Valuation Revenue and Customs: ICT Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Chancellor of the Bob Spink: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Exchequer with reference to the answer to the hon. pursuant to the answer of 18 June 2009, Official Member for Brentwood and Ongar of 28 October Report, column 444W, on HM Revenue and Customs: 2008, Official Report, column 888W, on non-domestic closures, what the cost is of the improvements to HM rates: valuation, whether (a) micro wind turbines and Revenue and Customs’ IT systems referred to in the (b) small-scale solar or photovoltaic cells will be (i) Answer; and if he will make a statement. [282422] liable, (ii) valued and (iii) taxed for business rates as part of the 2010 revaluation process. [258480] Mr. Timms: HMRC has a programme of continuous improvement to its IT systems, which includes the Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Micro generation plant and improvement referred to in my previous answer. This machinery, including micro wind turbines and small-scale year, HMRC is investing 6 per cent. of its departmental solar or photovoltaic cells, installed on or before 31 budget of £4 billion in improving and enhancing its IT March 2010 are, in principle, liable to be included in the systems. The key aspects of the improvement programme revalued rateable values due to come into force on 1 are detailed in the 2009-10 HMRC Business Plan published April 2010. on the HMRC website. In practical terms very basic micro generation plant, particularly small micro wind turbines and small-scale solar or photovoltaic cells, add very little if any to the Seaton Delaval Hall annual rental value of a property and will therefore have negligible impact on the rateable value even when Mr. Vaizey: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer rateable. what response time has been agreed between the District Valuer and HM Revenue and Customs to Operational Efficiency Programme Review assess the value of the Seaton Delaval Hall estate for the purpose of offers in lieu. [283269] Adam Afriyie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what role the Shareholder Executive has in Mr. Timms: Under the terms of the Service Level the Operational Efficiency Programme review of (a) Agreement between Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs the Met Office and (b) other trading funds; and and the Valuation Office Agency the target is to report whether (i) Ministers and (ii) officials (A) have met or formal inheritance tax cases within an average of 80 (B) plan to meet private sector stakeholders as part of working days but complex cases can take longer. The the review. [282191] district valuer is giving this particular case urgent attention. 209W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 210W

Tax: Revenues Mr. Timms: The Government announced that the introduction in April 2011 of a 45 per cent. top rate of Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer income tax will be replaced by a 50 per cent. rate what estimate he has made of the cost of public debt applying to income over £150,000 from April 2010. This interest as a percentage of tax revenue in each of the was accompanied by an announcement that tax relief next five years. [283227] on pension contributions will be restricted for those with incomes over £150,000. Relief will be tapered away Mr. Byrne: Projections for debt interest to 2010-11 so that for those with incomes of £180,000 and over it is are shown in Table C9 of the Budget 2009 document. worth 20 per cent. the same as to a basic rate taxpayer. Projections for current receipts to 2013-14 are shown in It is estimated that in 2011-12, around 13 per cent. of Table C4 of the same document. tax relief on individual and employee pension contributions Debt interest to 2010-11 has been forecast consistent will accrue to additional higher rate taxpayers and with the economic assumptions and policy decisions set 49 per cent. will accrue to higher rate taxpayers. out in Budget 2009. Data on employer contributions is not available. Taxation: Rebates Taxation: Domicile Philip Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr. Sanders: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Exchequer pursuant to the Answer of 11 June 2009, for what reasons his Department does not hold Official Report, columns 982-83W, on taxation: rebates, information on the number of claims for non- what the longest time taken by HM Revenue and domiciled status for tax purposes which have been (a) Customs to process an application for a tax refund was granted and (b) refused. [282545] in the last 12 months. [283178]

Mr. Timms: Under the self assessment tax regime Mr. Timms: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer individuals who are not domiciled in the UK can claim I gave the hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink) on the remittance basis of taxation. If they do so HMRC 10 June 2009, Official Report, column 906W. may accept that return or they may open an inquiry into the domicile issue. As a result of that inquiry the Valuation Office individual and HMRC may agree the domicile was correct or incorrect. There is no central record of the Robert Neill: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer number of these inquiries where domicile was considered. pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Meriden of 27 April 2009, Official Report, columns Taxation: Gaming Machines 1049-50W, on the Valuation Office, if he will place in the Library a copy of the minutes of each meeting of (a) the electronic capture of hard copy records project Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Chancellor of the board and (b) the installation of a geographical Exchequer how much was collected in amusement information system project board. [279797] machine licence duty in respect of each category of amusement machine in each year since its inception. Mr. Timms: The minutes of both the electronic capture [283252] of hard copy records project board and the geographical information system project board are commercially sensitive. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Amusement Machine Licence However, progress on each of the projects has been Duty (AMLD) is collected by HM Revenue and Customs, published in the VOA’s Annual Report and Forward not the Gambling Commission. Plan and has been reported in answer to previous Information on AMLD receipts broken down by questions given to the hon. Member on 5 June 2008, machine category is not available. The total annual Official Report, column 1086W and to the hon. Member monthly receipts from amusement machine licence duty for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman), on 27 April 2009, Official can be found in the HM Revenue and Customs Betting Report, column 1050W. and Gaming Statistical Bulletin, which is available from the HMRC website address at: Valuation Office Agency: Pay http://www.uktradeinfo.co.uk/index.cfm?task=bullbett Mr. Sanders: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any performance-related incentives are Taxation: Pensioners available to staff of the Valuation Office Agency. [282631] Dr. Cable: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what estimate he has made of the proportion of Mr. Timms: The Valuation Office Agency operates a income tax relief on pension contributions which will performance related particularly significant contribution accrue to (a) 45 per cent. taxpayers and (b) 40 per award scheme which rewards staff who consistently cent. taxpayers in 2011-12; and if he will make a deliver a level of performance above expectations while statement; [269041] meeting all of their objectives throughout the performance (2) what estimate he has made of the cost to the year. Exchequer of the income tax exemption of pension In conjunction with the annual performance process, contributions as a result of the introduction of the 45 the Agency operates a recognition voucher scheme which per cent. tax rate from 2011-12 in the first 12 months of can be used to recognise specific examples of commendable operation; and if he will make a statement. [269042] performance at the time it is achieved. 211W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 212W

HEALTH Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 19 June 2009]: Ihave been asked to reply. Abortion The level of Carer’s Allowance is reviewed annually Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Health in order to establish whether it has retained its value in what estimate he has made of the number of legal relation to the general level of prices in Great Britain. abortions carried out on women aged under 18 years in Following the last review in 2008, the rate was increased the latest period for which figures are available. from £50.55 to £53.10 a week from April 2009. The next such review will be conducted in the autumn. [282864]

Gillian Merron: There were 19,387 abortions performed on women under 18 in 2008 in England and Wales. Drugs: Rehabilitation Alcohol and Drug Misuse: Elderly Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for how many (a) people, (b) under 18 year-olds, (c) Health how many people aged over 65 years old under 16 year-olds and (d) under 12 year-olds were resident in each local authority area were treated for given repeat drug rehabilitation treatment for each type (a) alcohol-related and (b) drug-related health of drug in each of the last five years. [282765] problems in each year since 1997. [280666] Gillian Merron: Data regarding the number of people Gillian Merron: The information available on the undergoing repeat drug rehabilitation treatment are not number of people aged over 65 who received specialist collected centrally. treatment for drug dependence from 2004-05 by local drug action team and alcohol related admissions from 2002-03 by local authority has been placed in the Library. Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what the reasons are for the nine per cent. Notes: reduction in the pooled treatment budget for Milton The National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse began Keynes from the National Treatment Agency in collecting data on the National Drug Treatment Monitoring System (NDTMS) in April 2004. The NDTMS collects information 2009-10; [280678] about clients in contact with structured drug treatment in England. (2) what funding has been given to Milton Keynes Others may have received treatment for drug related health problems from the National Treatment Agency in each of the last in other settings, which do not report via the NDTMS. five years; and how much has been so allocated in the The number of alcohol-related admissions provided is based on next two years; [280679] the methodology developed by the North West Public Health Observatory (NWPHO). Following international best practice, (3) how many problematic drug users (a) there were the NWPHO methodology includes a wide range of diseases and in Milton Keynes and (b) received treatment in Milton injuries in which alcohol plays a part and estimates the proportion Keynes in each of the last five years. [280680] of cases that are attributable to the consumption of alcohol. However, data using this methodology is only available from Gillian Merron: Until 2008-09 the pooled treatment 2002-03 onwards. Details of the conditions and associated proportions can be found in the report Jones et al. (2008) “Alcohol-attributable budget (PTB) was allocated against a basket of indicators fractions for England: Alcohol-attributable mortality and hospital of social and economic deprivation known to reflect admissions”, a copy of which has been placed in the Library. drug use as the best available proxy of treatment need. As a result of differences in performance between drug Alcoholic Drinks: Misuse partnerships in getting people into treatment this funding formula was resulting in unjustifiable variations in the Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for amount of central subvention for each person’s treatment. Health how many hospital admissions there have been 2009-10 is the second year of a process which seeks to for alcohol-related conditions for (a) males and (b) produce a fairer allocation system which more accurately females aged (i) under 10, (ii) 10 to 13, (iii) 14 to 17 and matches need, activity and resources. (iv) 18 or more years old in (A) each region and (B) each primary care trust in each of the last five years; The new process is based on three elements: and if he will make a statement. [281300] 25 per cent. of the allocation is based on the indicators underpinning the previous formula to reflect the differential Gillian Merron: The information requested has been cost of responding to different levels of complex need such as placed in the Library, however, it should be noted that homelessness, mental heath, family breakdown and unemployment; to protect patient confidentiality it is not possible to 75 per cent. is based on activity in the treatment system with provide primary care trust (PCT) level data for the age areas being allocated a set amount per person treated effectively; groups under 10, 10 to 13 and 14 to 17-years-old. and Therefore, data have been provided for under 18 years The final element is an area cost adjustment figure to reflect old and over 18 years old, additionally for some PCTs it the varying costs of delivering services in different part of the has been necessary to combine these two age groups to country. protect patient confidentiality. To promote an orderly alteration to service planning, Carer’s Allowance the change is being introduced over three years with the annual maximum reduction set at 5 per cent. in 2008-09, Derek Wyatt: To ask the Secretary of State for 15 per cent. in 2009-10 and 30 per cent. in 2010-11. Health when the level of the carer’s allowance will next Funding allocated to Milton Keynes in each of the be reviewed. [281397] last five years is tabled as follows: 213W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 214W

Mr. Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for £ Health what the estimated capital cost is of 2005-06 1,066,714 implementing the fluoridation of public drinking water 2006-07 1,221,155 in the North West. [282242] 2007-08 1,221,155 2008-09 1,165,052 Ann Keen: The capital costs will depend upon the 2009-10 1,084,242 extent of the areas it is proposed to fluoridate and are likely to be spread over a number of years. We understand For the next two years, the indicative amount for that the North West strategic health authority has received 2010-11 is £925,000 (announced January 2008). This estimates of between £24 million for fluoridating one however was based on performance at the time predicted area of the region and £105 million for a scheme extending to grow at 1 per cent. a year. Growth in Milton Keynes more widely across the region. The figures must be seen is currently anticipated to be in excess of this so the in the context of the £2.7 billion spent annually on final allocation may increase. The exact allocation will national health service dentistry. not be known until January 2010. Based on data collected by the university of Glasgow covering the period 2004-05 to 2006-07, the National Fractures: Elderly Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse have advised Milton Keynes that an estimated 930 problematic drug users (PDUs) should be used for planning purposes. John Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health However, there is insufficient data on the number of pursuant to the answer of 11 May 2009, Official PDUs to determine how the PDU population has changed Report, column 623W, on fractures: elderly, to which over time. independent inspectorates primary care trusts have to demonstrate that they are meeting their responsibilities The number of PDUs in treatment in Milton Keynes with regard to implementing National Institute for for each of the last fives years is tabled as follows: Health and Clinical Excellence clinical guidance on fragility fractures, falls and osteoporosis. [282264] Number 2004-05 149 Phil Hope: The Care Quality Commission is the 2005-06 221 independent regulator of health and social care in England. 2006-07 264 They are the body to which primary care trusts have to 2007-08 337 demonstrate that they are meeting their responsibilities 2008-09 437 with regard to implementing National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence clinical guidance on fragility Elderly: Health Services fractures, falls and osteoporosis.

John Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health when he plans to publish his Department’s prevention Health Services: Islington package for older people; and if he will make a statement. [282263] Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what estimate he has made of expenditure on Phil Hope: We aim to publish the prevention package (a) primary care and (b) hospital care in the London for older people in the summer. Borough of Islington in (i) 2009-10 and (ii) each of the Fluoridation next four years. [283091]

Mr. Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information requested is not Health how many letters his Department received held centrally. requesting fluoridation of the public water supply in The London borough of Islington is covered by each year since 2000. [282243] Islington primary care trust (PCT). PCTs fund primary care and hospital care services from their revenue allocations. Ann Keen: Section 58 of the Water Act 2003 made The following table provides the funding allocated to strategic health authorities responsible for responding Islington PCT for 2009-10 and 2010-11. to requests to fluoridate a water supply. We have no record of any letters requesting the Department to Allocation (£000) Two year increase fluoridate a water supply since 2000. PCT 2009-10 2010-11 £000 Percentage Fluoridation: North West Islington 412,126 433,316 41,655 10.6 PCT Mr. Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many members of the North West Revenue allocations post 2010-11 have not yet been Fluoridation Evaluation Group set up by the North determined. West Strategic Health Authority have expressed public Once the allocations have been made, it is for PCTs to opposition to fluoridation of public drinking water in commission the health care services they need to meet the North West. [282241] the needs of the populations they serve, taking into account both local priorities and the NHS operating Ann Keen: This information is not held centrally. framework. 215W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 216W

Hospitals Malaria

Mr. Gummer: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health what records his Department holds on the what estimate he has made of the expenditure incurred average period between the arrival at (a) Papworth by the NHS on the treatment of malaria in each of the Hospital, (b) Norfolk and Norwich Hospital, (c) last five years. [282879] Basildon Hospital and (d) all hospitals in England of a patient needing an emergency angioplasty to the time Gillian Merron: There has been no estimate made of at which the balloon begins to inflate in the patient’s national health service expenditure on the treatment of artery. [282136] malaria in the past five years. Malaria does not naturally occur in the United Kingdom. Ann Keen: Data from the national audit of treatment Cases in the UK are imported. The following table of heart attack1 show that the average periods between shows the number of cases diagnosed in the UK since arrival at hospital for emergency angioplasty and balloon 1999 by the Health Protection Agency’s Special Pathogens inflation are: Reference Unit. Papworth—32 minutes; Cases diagnosed Norfolk and Norwich—77 minutes (five patients in 2008-09); Number Basildon Hospital—no data—primary angioplasty programme due to start in the autumn; and 1999 2,045 All hospitals in England—73 minutes (see following note). 2000 2,069 Note: 2001 2,050 2002 1,945 The average of all hospitals includes hospitals with large numbers of emergency angioplasty patients and hospitals which have 2003 1,722 recently started an emergency angioplasty programme with small 2004 1,660 number of patients. A more meaningful figure is the average for 2005 1,754 all patients in England which is 60 minutes. 2006 1,758 1 Source: 2007 1,548 Myocardial Ischaemia National Audit Project—data for 2008-09 2008 1,370 based on admission diagnosis. Source: Data provided by the Health Protection Agency’s Malaria Reference Local Investment Finance Trust Schemes Laboratory. Malnutrition Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the effects of changes to international financial reporting Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health standards on (a) capital accounting in relation to and what recent assessment he has made of the (a) extent (b) recurrent costs of (i) existing and (ii) proposed and (b) incidence of malnutrition in England. [281243] local investment finance trust schemes; and if he will make a statement. [282521] Gillian Merron: There is no national assessment of the extent and incidence of malnutrition. Mr. Mike O’Brien: International Financial Reporting To improve the nutrition of the population, an Standards (IFRS) apply to public sector accounts with independent Nutrition Action Plan Delivery Board was effect from 2009-10. Departmental end-of-year accounts set up to monitor progress against the actions named in will be prepared on this basis, including those of national the plan, chaired by Gordon Lishman, ex-director general health service primary care trusts. of Age Concern. The board will submit its final report In preparation for the introduction of IFRS from in summer 2009. 2009-10, the Department assessed the impact should all NHS Local Improvement Finance Trust (LIFT) projects NHS Business Services Authority come on to the public sector balance sheet. It was estimated that NHS LIFT assets with an aggregate Jim Cousins: To ask the Secretary of State for Health value of £105 million could come on balance sheet in (1) how many full-time equivalent employees are 2009-10. employed by the NHS Business Services Authority in Schemes coming on balance sheet will also create a the City of Newcastle upon Tyne; [282203] recurring additional revenue impact in the NHS accounts. (2) what his policy is on inviting in-house bids for IT For 2009-10, it was estimated that this would amount to applications and systems developments in the NHS a total of £36 million for NHS LIFT schemes. The Business Services Authority; [282204] Department’s assessment also included consideration (3) where the NHS Business Services Authority’s (a) of proposed NHS LIFT projects. data centres and (b) service centres are located; how HM Treasury published consolidated budgeting guidance many people are employed at each location; and (IFRS updated) on 12 June 2009. This included a whether potential future locations for such centres have chapter on the budgeting treatment of private finance been identified. [282205] initiative schemes, including NHS LIFT, under IFRS. The Department is working to establish exactly how Mr. Mike O’Brien: There are 1,103.58 whole-time this guidance will be applied in the health sector and equivalent employees working at NHS Business Services will issue advice and guidance to the NHS in due Authority (NHSBSA) within the City of Newcastle-upon- course. Tyne. 217W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 218W

There is no policy within NHSBSA relating to inviting Net cost to the Department for the NHS Innovation in-house bids for information technology (IT) applications Expo is expected to be £630,000. and systems developments. As part of the business case The NHS Institute for Innovation and Improvement process associated with any bid opportunities, the existing will contribute a further £350,000. in-house solutions are examined and considered in terms The Department has worked closely with the private of their capability to deliver against the objectives set sector to deliver this event; in total they are expected to out in the business case. contribute a further £1.2 million. Information on NHSBSA’s IT centres and staff employed is shown in the following table. Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health NHSBSA staff split by function and location as at 31 May 2009 how many people he expects to attend the NHS (B) Number of IT Innovation Expo event. [278622] (A) Total data centre staff NHS Business Service Authority NHSBSA staff employed by the (NHSBSA) data centre and employed at 31 NHSBSA (included Gillian Merron: Total registrations for the Expo were service centre locations May 2009 in total column A) 5,882. Delegates include national health service and Corporate HQ and services social care chief executives, clinicians, front-line staff, (including finance, HR, managers and others from patient and other voluntary commercial) organisations, academics and researchers in industry. Newcastle 140 — The Healthcare Innovation Expo was the biggest public sector event of its type and brought together the Prescription services best in healthcare innovation from the public, private, Newcastle 676 7 voluntary, scientific and academic communities. It was Wakefield 250 — a unique combination of: Bolton 325 — an innovative trade fair including a diversity of exhibitors; West Bromwich (closes 31 July 121 — 2009) a high profile main stage speaker programme; a comprehensive programme of innovation seminars; and Patient services and student grants an interactive on and off multimedia event. Newcastle 265 — Fleetwood 88 — NHS: Death Rates Pensions Fleetwood 405 — Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 11 May 2009, Official Dental Report, column 628W, on NHS: death rates, how many alerts the Healthcare Commission received in respect of Eastbourne 76 — each patient group between July 2008 and March 2009. [282938] Supply chain management Alfreton 14 — Mr. Mike O’Brien: I refer the hon. Member to the answer of 27 April 2009, Official Report, column 1079W Counter fraud and security on NHS: Death Rate, which details how many alerts the management Healthcare Commission received in respect of each London 84 3 patient group between 1 July 2008 and 31 March 2009. Regional offices (x 8) 56 — Total 2,500 10 Potential future locations for these data and service NHS: Religious Practice centres have not been determined. Colin Challen: To ask the Secretary of State for NHS Innovation Expo Health how much of the NHS budget has been spent on (a) (i) chaplaincy and (ii) other religious services for Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health each faith and (b) other similar non-faith services. how much he expects the NHS Innovation Expo event [282818] to cost; and from the budgets of which NHS organisations funds will be drawn for that event. Phil Hope: National health service bodies are not [278485] required to report their planned or actual spending on chaplaincy and related services to the Department. Gillian Merron: The Healthcare Innovation Expo When planning such services, NHS bodies should take was the biggest public sector event of its type and due account of their legal duties, the composition of brought together the best in healthcare innovation from the communities they serve, and the needs and the public, private, voluntary, scientific and academic circumstances of their patients, service users and local communities. It was a unique combination of: populations. an innovative trade fair including a diversity of exhibitors; The Department’s guidance for the NHS is set out in a high profile main stage speaker programme; ‘NHS Chaplaincy: Meeting the Religious and Spiritual a comprehensive programme of innovation seminars; and Needs of Patients and Staff’ (November 2003). A copy an interactive on and off multimedia event. has been placed in the Library. 219W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 220W

NHS: Stress each of the last three years; and what surgical treatments have been administered to treat the Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health condition. [282484] whether provision is made within the NHS for staff training in meditation techniques. [283118] Gillian Merron: The requested data are not available. However, the following table provides data on the number Gillian Merron: This information is not held centrally of finished consultant episodes (FCEs) for patients as any decision to provide staff training in meditation under 18 year olds (0-17 years old) with a primary techniques, would be taken locally. diagnosis of obesity1 and a main or secondary procedure Nutrition of Bariatric Surgery2 for 2005-06, 2006-07 and 2007-08:

Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State Total FCEs for Health when he plans to publish the Nutrition Delivery Action Plan Delivery Board’s report. [283264] 2005-06 4 Phil Hope: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave him on 16 June 2009, Official Report, column 2006-07 2 228W. 2007-08 6 Obesity: Medical Treatments Notes: Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for Finished Consultant Episode (FCE) Health how many people of each age under the age of A finished consultant episode (FCE) is defined as a continuous period of admitted patient care under one consultant within one healthcare provider. 18 years were prescribed medicine on the NHS to help FCEs are counted against the year in which they end. The figures do not them lose weight in each of the last three years; and represent the number of different patients, as a person may have more than one what types of medicine have been prescribed for this episode of care within the same stay in hospital or in different stays in the same year. purpose. [282485] 1 Primary diagnosis The primary diagnosis is the first of up to 20 (14 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and Gillian Merron: The information requested is not seven prior to 2002-03) diagnosis fields in the Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) available in the format requested relating to the number data set and provides the main reason why the patient was admitted to hospital. The ICD-10 codes used to identify Obesity is as follows of people prescribed medicine. E66—Obesity Data are available from the NHS Information Centre Main procedure The main procedure is the first recorded procedure or intervention in the HES on the total number of prescription items for drugs data set and is usually the most resource intensive procedure or intervention dispensed in England in the community for the treatment performed during the episode. It is appropriate to use main procedure when of obesity over the last three years. This information is looking at admission details, (e.g. time waited), but a more complete count of episodes with a particular procedure is obtained by looking at the main and the provided in the following table: secondary procedure. Secondary procedure British National Formulary As well as the main operative procedure, there are up to 23 (11 from 2002-03 to chemical name Items 2006-07 and three prior to 2002-03) secondary operative procedure fields in HES that show secondary or additional procedures performed on the patient 2 2006 Diethylpropion 7 during the episode of care. Number of episodes with ‘Bariatric Surgery’ as a Hydrochloride main or secondary procedure These figures represent the number of episodes where the procedure (or Orlistat 775,718 intervention) was recorded in any of the 24 (12 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and Phentermine 15 four prior to 2002-03) operative procedure fields in a HES record. A record is only included once in each count, even if the procedure is recorded in more than Rimonabant 23,532 one operative procedure field of the record. It should be noted that more procedures are carried out than episodes with a main or secondary procedure. Sibutramine 264,403 For example, patients under going a ‘cataract operation’ would tend to have at 2006 total 1,063,675 least two procedures—removal of the faulty lens and the fitting of a new one—counted in a single episode. The OPCS-4.2 procedure codes for bariatric surgery in years 2005-06 to 2007-08 2007 Diethylpropion 3 are: Hydrochloride G01.2 Oesophagogastrectomy and anastomosis of oesophagus to transposed jejunum Orlistat 828,795 G01.3 Oesophagogastrectomy and anastomosis of oesophagus to jejunum nec Rimonabant 113,172 G27.1 Total gastrectomy and excision of surrounding tissue G27.2 Total gastrectomy and anastomosis of oesophagus to duodenum Sibutramine 294,999 G27.3 Total gastrectomy and interposition of jejunum G27.4 Total gastrectomy and anastomosis of oesophagus to transposed jejunum 2007 total 1,236,969 G27.5 Total gastrectomy and anastomosis of oesophagus to jejunum nec G27.8 Other specified total excision of stomach G27.9 Unspecified total excision of stomach 2008 Diethylpropion 6 G28.1 Partial gastrectomy and anastomosis of stomach to duodenum Hydrochloride G28.2 Partial gastrectomy and anastomosis of stomach to transposed jejunum Orlistat 849,809 G28.3 Partial gastrectomy and anastomosis of stomach jejunum nec G28.8 Other specific partial excision of stomach Rimonabant 106,720 G28.9 Unspecified partial excision of stomach Sibutramine 325,701 G30.1 Gastroplasty nec G30.2 Partitioning of stomach nec 2008 total 1,282,236 G30.8 Other specified plastic operations on stomach G30.9 Unspecified plastic operations on stomach G31.1 Bypass of stomach by anastomosis of oesophagus to duodenum Obesity: Surgery G31.2 Bypass of stomach by anastomosis of stomach to duodenum G31.3 Revision of anastomosis of stomach to duodenum Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for G31.4 Conversion to anastomosis of stomach to duodenum G31.8 Other specified connection of stomach to duodenum Health how many people in each age category under G31.9 Unspecified connection of stomach to duodenum the age of 18 years underwent surgery for obesity in G31.0 Conversion from previous anastomosis of stomach to duodenum 221W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 222W

INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT G32.1 Bypass of stomach by anastomosis of stomach to transposed jejunum G32.2 Revision of anastomosis of stomach to transposed jejunum G32.3 Conversion to anastomosis of stomach to transposed jejunum Departmental Billing G32.8 Other specified connection of stomach to transposed jejunum G32.9 Unspecified connection of stomach to transposed jejunum G32.0 Conversion from previous anastomosis of stomach to transposed Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State jejunum for International Development pursuant to the answer G33.1 Bypass of stomach by anastomosis of stomach to jejunum nec of 8 June 2009, Official Report, column 757W, on G33.2 Revision of anastomosis of stomach to jejunum nec G33.3 Conversion of anastomosis of stomach to jejunum nec departmental billing, how much his Department’s G33.8 Other specified other connection of stomach to jejunum non-departmental public bodies have paid in interest G33.9 Unspecified other connection of stomach to jejunum under the Late Payment of Commercial Debts G33.0 Conversion from previous anastomosis of stomach to jejunum nec G38.8 Other specified other open operations on stomach (Interest) Act 1998 in the last three years. [282328] G48.1 Insertion of gastric bubble G48.2 Attention to gastric bubble Mr. Michael Foster: None of the Department for The following additional four digit OPCS-4.3 and OPCS-4.4 codes are used in the 2006-07 and 2007-08 data (these are in addition to the OPCS 4.2 codes listed International Development’s non-departmental public above): bodies has paid interest under the Act in the last three G28.4 Sleeve gastrectomy and duodenal switch years. G28.5 Sleeve gastrectomy nec G30.3 Partitioning of stomach using band G30.4 Partitioning of stomach using staples Departmental Drinking Water G31.5 Closure of connection of stomach and duodenum G31.6 Attention to connection of stomach and duodenum G32.4 Closure of connection of stomach to transposed jejunum Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for G32.5 Attention to connection of stomach to transposed jejunum International Development how much his Department G33.5 Closure of connection of stomach to jejunum nec has spent on water coolers in each of the last six G33.6 Attention to connection of stomach to jejunum G38.7 Removal of gastric band months. [282284] G71.6 Duodenal switch The term “bariatric surgery” is often used to define a group of procedures that Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International can be performed to facilitate weight loss although these procedures can be performed for conditions other than weight loss. Development (DFID) does not use water coolers in its Data quality UK offices. Drinking water is provided by means of HES are compiled from data sent by more than 300 national health service filtered chilled tap water. trusts and primary care trusts (PCTs) in England. Data are also received from a number of independent sector organisations for activity commissioned by the Information on water coolers in our overseas offices English NHS. The NHS Information Centre for health and social care liaises is not centrally available and could not be obtained closely with these organisations to encourage submission of complete and valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid without incurring disproportionate cost. data via HES processes. While this brings about improvement over time, some shortcomings remain. Departmental Internet Assessing growth through time HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. The quality and coverage of the data have improved over time. These improvements in information submitted Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for by the NHS have been particularly marked in the earlier years and need to be International Development how much his Department borne in mind when analysing time series. Some of the increase in figures for later years (particularly 2006-07 onwards) has spent on the maintenance of its website in each may be due to the improvement in the coverage of independent sector activity. year since 2007. [282320] Changes in NHS practice also need to be borne in mind when analysing time series. For example, a number of procedures may now be undertaken in outpatient settings and may no longer be accounted for in the HES data. This Mr. Michael Foster: Maintenance costs of the may account for any reductions in activity over time. Department for International Development’s website Ungrossed data were: Figures have not been adjusted for shortfalls in the data, i.e. the data are ungrossed. Source: £ Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), The NHS Information Centre for health and social care 2007-08 120,420 2008-09 173,637 Respite Care Departmental Manpower

Mike Gapes: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for what plans he has to improve co-operation between International Development how many people from primary care trusts and local authorities in planning, ethnic minority backgrounds his Department employs. commissioning and funding short break services. [282291] [283058] Mr. Michael Foster: Declaration of ethnicity is voluntary at the Department for International Development (DFID). Phil Hope: The NHS Operating Framework 2009-10 As at the end of March 2009, and where ethnicity of states that primary care trusts (PCTs) should work with our home civil service (HCS) staff in post is known, their local authority partners and publish joint plans on there were 154 staff with a declared ethnic minority how their combined funding will support breaks for background. This represents 12.4 per cent. of our HCS carers, including short breaks, in a personalised way. staff. PCTs are therefore aware of this additional funding and it is for PCTs to decide how to use this funding in the Departmental Press Releases light of local priorities. Local authorities and PCTs are accountable to their local communities and it is for Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for them to find appropriate ways to work together to International Development how many press releases support carers. his Department has issued in the last 12 years. [282314] 223W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 224W

Mr. Michael Foster: According to departmental records, Iraq: Peacekeeping Operations the Department for International Development (DFID) has issued 633 press releases since January 2004. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for DFID’s press release archive does not go further International Development how much his Department back than this. has spent clearing mines from Iraq since 2001. [282341]

Departmental Training Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Development (DFID) has spent approximately £5 million Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for clearing mines from Iraq since 2001. International Development how much his Department Overseas Aid: Emergency Services has spent on health and safety training in each of the last two years. [282310] Mr. Andrew Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Michael Foster: In the last two years the Department for International Development pursuant to the answer for International Development (DFID) has spent £28,177 of 14 January 2009, Official Report, column 834W, on on health and safety training. These figures cover training overseas aid: emergency services, what estimate he has conducted in DFID’s UK headquarters. Information made of the expenditure which will be incurred by the on training courses arranged by our overseas offices is UK Fire and Rescue Service in undertaking its duties not collated centrally and to provide this information under the agreement on organisation of the overseas would incur disproportionate costs. search and rescue capability in disaster response. [282166] International Women’s Day Mr. Michael Foster: Expenditure incurred by the UK Fire and Rescue Service in undertaking overseas search Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for and rescue operations cannot be predicted in advance International Development how much his Department but will depend on the requirements in each response. spent on promoting International Women’s Day 2009. [282318] The Department for International Development (DFID) has agreed a budget for the UK Fire and Rescue Service Mr. Michael Foster: To mark International Women’s to train, equip and maintain its readiness to provide Day, the Department for International Development search and rescue response of £241,230 over the three (DFID) promoted work on violence against women, a years 2009-10 to 2011-12. policy issue of major concern to the UK Government and civil society partners in the UK and developing Mr. Andrew Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State countries. Former Parliamentary Under-Secretary of for International Development pursuant to the answer State (Mr. Ivan Lewis) hosted an exhibit commissioned of 14 January 2009, Official Report, column 834W, on by the non-governmental organisation Action Aid as overseas aid: emergency services, what plans there are part of a wider display of information in DFID’s for members of the UK Fire and Rescue Service to London office on the issue of violence against women. attend international disaster-related training events This was accompanied by a series of lunchtime films on and conferences in the next 12 months. [282194] gender issues shown during the week of 9 March. Non-staff costs incurred by these activities came to less Mr. Michael Foster: The UK Fire and Rescue Service than £200. so far plans to take part in the following events in the next year: |n addition, some DFID country offices used the October, 2009 - International Search and Rescue Advisory occasion of International Women’s Day to highlight Group (INSARAG) Africa, Europe and Middle-East Regional work on gender issues in support of the Millennium Meeting in Hungary. Development Goals (MDGs). For example, in Sierra 2010 - Regional Team Leaders Meeting in Abu Dhabi; and Leone, DFID committed £16,000 to support awareness- raising activities on the issue of maternal mortality possibly a multi-regional INSARAG Team Leaders Meeting, location to be determined. during February and March. Overseas Aid: Indonesia Investing for Development Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what recent steps his International Development what steps he is taking in Department has taken in respect of aid and assistance response to the recommendations of the Eighteenth to those working in the rubber trade in Indonesia. Report of the Committee of Public Accounts, Session [282282] 2008-09, HC94, on Investing for Development. [282635] Mr. Michael Foster: Between February and March Mr. Douglas Alexander: The UK Government are this year, the Department for International Development currently preparing a formal response to the (DFID) funded work in Indonesia which produced first recommendations in the 18th Report by the Committee hand, up to date information on how the global economic of Public Accounts (2008-09) on Investing for Development: crisis was affecting small-scale rubber producers. That the Department for International Development’s Oversight work helped to inform the Indonesian Government’s of CDC Group plc. This response will be set out in a understanding of which sectors of the economy and Treasury minute to be presented to Parliament and which communities are most vulnerable to the current published on 16 July 2009. economic shock. 225W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 226W

DFID programmes in Indonesia do not specifically United Nations: Females target those working in the rubber trade. But earlier this year DFID provided an additional £4 million in support Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for for the Indonesian Government’s main national social International Development pursuant to the answer of protection scheme which aims to provide assistance to 15 June 2009, Official Report, column 1W, on United households facing increased hardship because of the Nations: females, what proposals his Department has global economic downturn. put forward for the (a) remit and (b) leadership of a United Nations Agency for Women; and if he will Sri Lanka make a statement. [282321]

Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Thomas: The UK Government are arguing for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what (a) financial the creation of a single powerful agency for women, and (b) technical assistance the Government plans to merging existing bodies, with a strong visible leader. provide to Sri Lanka for de-mining the former conflict zones in the north of the country; and if he will make a statement. [281975] CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Apprentices Development (DFID) recently committed an additional £5 million of humanitarian funding for continuing life- Stephen Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for saving response activities as well as early recovery work. Children, Schools and Families what the minimum (a) Our early recovery work will include de-mining and we number of hours a week for an apprenticeship and (b) stand by ready to support funds for humanitarian de-mining number of guided learning hours for an apprenticeship agencies with strong capacity in country such as the framework will be for apprentices aged 16 and 17 Mines Action Group (MAG). DFID is providing no following the raising of the age of participation in financial or technical support for humanitarian de-mining education or training to 18. [283050] activities directly to the Government of Sri Lanka. Sub-Saharan Africa: Malaria Mr. Iain Wright: At present, there is no minimum number of hours a week for an apprenticeship. The Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for minimum number of hours spent each week on an International Development what recent representations apprenticeship is a matter for agreement between employer he has received on the provision of mosquito nets in and apprentice. sub-Saharan Africa. [282315] The Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill which is currently before Parliament would give the Mr. Thomas: Representatives of Malaria No More Secretary of State the power to bring forward regulations met with Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State through a Specification of Apprenticeship Standards (Mr. Michael Foster) on 10 June 2009. I understand for England to set out the minimum requirements for there has been no other formal representation made to all apprenticeship frameworks delivered in England. We Ministers since 1 January 2009 at which the issue of the expect these regulations to include a requirement that provision of bed nets in sub-Saharan Africa has been all frameworks must include a minimum of 280 guided raised. learning hours per year. Subject to the will of Parliament, this would ensure that all apprentices aged 16 and 17 Sudan: Elections would benefit from the minimum level of learning guided learning required to be considered as being engaged in Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for education and training. International Development how much his Department has allocated to support elections in Sudan; and how Child Workforce Development Council such funding will be disbursed. [281964] Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Thomas: In 2007, the Department for International Children, Schools and Families how much funding has Development (DFID) earmarked £11 million to support been allocated to the Child Workforce Development the electoral process in Sudan. Council in each year since its creation. [282013] DFID has already provided £1 million for media, civic education and electoral conflict management Ms Diana R. Johnson: Children’s Workforce programmes, and £1.5 million to the United Nations Development Council (CWDC) was established in 2005. Development Programme (UNDP) for its preparatory The allocation for each financial year from Department support to the elections. The National Elections Children, Schools and Families1 was; Commission has yet to present its overall strategy, but 1 Or it’s predecessor DFES. once we are content with this plan, we will be able to transfer remaining funds to UNDP and determine any £ further support the UK may provide. 2005-06 960,000 UK funding supports a range of activities: voter and 2006-07 31,921,000 civic education through local organisations, training 2007-08 55,181,000 workshops for journalists and programmes to support 2008-09 82,454,000 media monitoring, support to domestic observer groups, Note: assistance to the National Elections Commission and For the current financial year, 2009-10, the available allocation is training for the Political Parties Affairs Council. £106,070,875 227W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 228W

Children in Care: Essex Children looked after during the year ending 31 March who went missing from their placements by gender, age at 31 March, and ethnic origin1,2,3,4—Years ending 31 March 2008; Coverage: England Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for All children looked after who went Children, Schools and Families how many children missing from care (number) were in care in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point in each Black or Black British of the last five years. [274241] Caribbean 40 African 40 Dawn Primarolo: Information on the number of looked Any other Black background 20 after children in Essex is available from table LAA1 in the Statistical First Release entitled ‘Children looked Other ethnic groups after in England (including adoption and care leavers) Chinese 20 year ending 31 March 2008’, which is located at Any other ethnic group 40 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000810/ 1 Figures exclude children looked after under an agreed series of short-term index.shtml placements. 2 Children who went missing on more than one occasion during the year have Table LAA1 can be found within the first set of been counted once. additional tables. 3 Includes looked after children who were missing from care for a period of more than 24 hours. Information on the number of looked after children 4 National figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. Numbers of five or less are only collected by the Department at local authority have been suppressed and replaced with a hyphen (—) except where the number is zero. level; therefore information for Castle Point is not available. Source: SSDA 903 Children in Care: Missing Persons Children: Databases

Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many children of Children, Schools and Families what steps he is taking each (a) sex, (b) age group and (c) ethnic group were to ensure that computers infected with malware are reported missing from local authority care in the last 12 prevented from gaining access to the ContactPoint months. [273287] database. [274317]

Dawn Primarolo [holding answer 7 May 2009]: The Dawn Primarolo [holding answer 11 May 2009]: Before information is shown in the following table. any organisation can connect to ContactPoint they are Children looked after during the year ending 31 March who went missing from subject to an accreditation process which ensures that their placements by gender, age at 31 March, and ethnic origin1,2,3,4—Years they have in place the necessary regulatory, security and ending 31 March 2008; Coverage: England operational requirements. This provides assurance that All children looked after who went the use of ContactPoint is subject to appropriate missing from care (number) supervision, monitoring and controls. Gender 980 As part of the accreditation process each organisation Male 510 must demonstrate that they have appropriate security Female 470 policies and processes in place for protection from malware, viruses and spyware. They are also required to Age at 31 March (years) 980 show that content analysis is performed on incoming Under 1 — and outgoing data, including the virus checking of 1to4 10 emails and attachments. These checks will provide assurance 5to9 10 that workstations are free from known threats such as 10 to 15 440 malware or spyware before they are used to access 16 and over 520 ContactPoint and are protected from any future compromise. Ethnic origin 980 White Children’s Centres: Tamworth White British 640 White Irish 10 Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Any other White background 40 Children, Schools and Families how many children’s centres there are in Tamworth constituency; and what Mixed assessment he has made of the adequacy of such White and Black Caribbean 40 provision for children under five in Tamworth. [282582] White and Black African 10 White and Asian 10 Dawn Primarolo: Tamworth currently has six designated Any other mixed background 30 Sure Start children’s centres, offering access to services to over 6,300 children under five and their families. Asian or Asian British In general Staffordshire is making good progress with Indian 10 the establishment and development of children’s centres. Pakistani 10 It is a major programme which I understand has been Bangladeshi 0 well managed, with good community involvement, Any other Asian background 40 consultation and links to extended services in schools. 229W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 230W

Demos Departmental Data Protection

Mr. Blunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Schools and Families how many breaches of Children, Schools and Families what (a) private information security there have been at his Department meetings and (b) public engagements Ministers in his and its predecessor in the last five years. [281069] Department have attended at which representatives from the think-tank Demos were present in the last Ms Diana R. Johnson: In the last five years there have 12 months; and if he will make a statement. [279516] been seven breaches of information security. The Department for Children, Schools and Families and its Ms Diana R. Johnson: Ministers and officials have agencies report all significant personal data security meetings with a wide variety of organisations in the breaches to the Cabinet Office and the ICO. Information public and private sectors as part of the process of on personal data security breaches are published on an policy development and delivery. As was the case with annual basis in the Department’s annual resource accounts previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s as was announced in the Data Handling Review published practice to provide details of all such meetings. on 25 June 2008. Additionally, all significant control weaknesses including other significant security breaches are included in the Departmental Carbon Emissions Statement of Internal Control which is published within the annual resource accounts. Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Departmental Press Schools and Families what estimate he has made of the volume of carbon dioxide emissions arising from Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State road-based transport used for administrative for Children, Schools and Families what (a) operations by his Department in (a) 2006-07 and (b) newspapers and (b) periodicals are delivered to the 2007-08 (i) in total and (ii) per full-time equivalent private office of each Minister in his Department; and member of staff. [281015] at what cost in the latest period for which figures are available. [279423] Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department for Children, Schools and Families estimates that the tonnage of Ms Diana R. Johnson: Attached is a list of newspapers carbon dioxide emissions arising from road-based transport and periodicals delivered to the private office of each for administrative operations by the Department is as Minister in the Department. follows. The overall cost of newspapers and periodicals delivered The data requested was for the Department for Children, to the Ministers’ office, for financial year 2008-09, was Schools and Families (DCSF). DCSF was established £6,851.21. under Machinery of Government changes on 28 June List of newspapers and periodicals delivered to each 2007, therefore the response covers its predecessor the Minister’s private office at the Department for Children, Department for Education and Skills (DFES). Schools and Families. The carbon emissions arising from road-based transport Ed Balls for staff in (a) 2006-07 was 935 tonnes with 0.271 Newspapers full-time equivalent staff (b) 2007-08 was 1479 tonnes Daily Express with 0.534 full-time equivalent staff. Daily Mail Daily Mirror Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Daily Telegraph Schools and Families what estimate he has made of the Evening Standard volume of carbon dioxide emissions arising from air Financial Times travel by staff in his Department in (a) 2006-07 and Guardian (b) 2007-08 (i) in total and (ii) per full-time equivalent Independent member of staff. [281016] Sun Times Ms Diana R. Johnson: The information requested is as follows: Times Higher Periodicals The data requested was for the Department for Children, Economist Schools and Families (DCSF). DCSF was established under Machinery of Government changes on 28 June Private Eye 2007, therefore the response covers its predecessor the New Statesman Department for Education and Skills (DFES). Spectator The carbon emissions arising from air travel for staff Sarah McCarthy-Fry/Andrew Adonis in (a) 2006-07 was 432.05 with 0.125 for full-time Newspapers equivalent staff (b) 2007-08 was 186.80 with 0.068 for Financial Times full-time equivalent staff. Guardian The data has been provided air travels bookings Independent made by the Department’s contractor for travel booking, Daily Mail Carlson Wagonlit Travel. Daily Express 231W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 232W

Daily Mirror Department is responsible which were introduced as a Sun consequence of obligations arising from EU legislation Times in the latest period for which figures are available. Times Higher [281870] Daily Telegraph Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department for Children, Evening Standard Schools and Families has not carried out an estimate of Periodicals the proportion of statutory obligations deriving from Economist EU law within its policy remit. The key policy areas New Statesman within the Department’s remit (education in schools, children’s social care and substantive family law) fall Spectator outside community competence. Times Educational Supplement Beverley Hughes European Union: Primary Education Newspapers Financial Times Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Guardian Children, Schools and Families what information Independent about the EU his Department provides to primary schools for teaching purposes. [282424] Daily Mail Daily Mirror Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department does not Sun provide information about the European Union to schools. Times The proposed new primary curriculum, which is being consulted on, will provide opportunities for children to Times Higher learn about Europe and the European Union. For example Daily Telegraph pupils should be taught about links between local, Evening Standard British, European and world history. Daily Express Periodicals Further Education Voice Weekly Community Care Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Nursery World Schools and Families how many and what proportion of year 11 pupils (a) entitled to and (b) not entitled to Local Government Chronicle free school meals who achieved at least five GCSEs at Health Service Journal grades A* to C, including English and mathematics in Prospect (i) 2004, (ii) 2005 and (iii) 2006, achieved a level 3 First News qualification within two years of completing their Times Educational Supplement GCSEs; and if he will make a statement. [280172] Economist Ms Diana R. Johnson: The information requested is Baroness Morgan of Drefelin/Kevin Brennan shown in the following table. The higher progression Newspapers rate to Level 3 at 18 among those not eligible for Free Financial Times School Meals (FSM) who had gained at least five Guardian GCSEs at grades A*-C, including English and Maths, is Independent partly a reflection of their higher average attainment in year 11 compared with their counterparts who were Daily Mail FSM eligible in year 11. Daily Express Number and proportion year 11 pupils gaining at least five GCSEs at A*-C in Daily Mirror year 11 including English and Maths who gain level 3 within two years, by Sun eligibility for free school meals 1 Times Level 3 at 18 Number Percentage Base2 Daily Telegraph Evening standard Entitled to free school meals3 Periodicals 2004 9,800 65.8 14,800 Western Mail 2005 9,200 64.4 14,300 Times Educational Supplement 2006 8,500 64.6 13,100 Jim Knight shared newspapers with Sarah McCarthy- Not entitled to free Fry/Andrew Adonis’ private office school meals3 Newspapers 2004 183,300 76.7 238,900 2005 178,000 76.6 232,300 Dorset Echo 2006 171,800 77.4 221,900 1 Level 3 within two years of year 11 (e.g. 2006 for 2004 year 11 cohort). EC Law 2 The base is total number gaining five or more GCSEs grades A*-C in year 11 including English and Maths. 3 Based on eligibility for free school meals in year 11 for those in maintained Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for provision only ) as eligibility for free school meals in year 11 is not available for Children, Schools and Families what estimate he has the independent sector). made of the proportion of statutory obligations Source: provided for by legislation on matters for which his Matched Administrative Dataset. 233W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 234W

Outdoor Education interest and enthusiasm from schools for last year’s LOtC Awards that schools and teachers recognise the Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for importance of different activities outside of the classroom Children, Schools and Families (1) what funding his in supporting learning and development for their young Department has given to the Learning Outside the people. Classroom programme in each of the last three years; The Department does not collect data on how many and what funding has been allocated to the programme children experience learning outside the classroom. However, for each of the next three years; [282418] we know that most schools do provide learning outside (2) how many schools have indicated their support the classroom and recognise its importance. The 2006 for the Learning Outside the Classroom Manifesto in NFER survey confirmed that schools were doing the each year since its launch; [282419] same, or more, learning outside the classroom than before and they expect to do the same or more in future. (3) how many children of each age in each region Changes to the secondary curriculum are designed to experienced learning outside the classroom in each of encourage ‘curriculum opportunities’outside the classroom the three years (a) before and (b) after the launch of and the proposed new primary curriculum, to be introduced the Learning Outside the Classroom Manifesto. from 2011, which is currently subject to consultation, [282420] will also reflect the need for teachers to engage pupils with these experiences. Ms Diana R. Johnson: A breakdown of the Department’s investment in England into the Learning Outside the Classroom (LOtC) programme is set out as follows: Pupil Exclusions: Disadvantaged

Financial year Funding (£) Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, 2006-07 1,750,000 Schools and Families how many and what proportion 2007-08 1,560,000 of children in each region who were subject to (a) 2008-09 1,500,000 permanent and (b) fixed-term exclusion from school were entitled to free school meals in the latest year for This year the Department is funding the newly established which figures are available. [279462] Council for Learning Outside the Classroom £740,000 to take forward the aims of the Manifesto. Funding Ms Diana R. Johnson: The information available on beyond this financial year has not yet been agreed. the number of exclusions (not the number of children) There are currently 1,698 signatories to the Manifesto, for 2006/07 is shown in the table. Some pupils may be including 199 schools. We also know from the huge excluded more than once.

Primary, secondary and special schools1: Number and proportion of permanent and fixed period exclusions for pupils who were eligible for free school meals2, 3—2006/07 Type of exclusion Permanent Fixed period Government office region Number Proportion3 Number Proportion4

North East 210 49.6 7,200 39.3 North West 540 43.2 22,160 37.8 Yorkshire and the Humber 290 43.0 17,810 34.6 East Midlands 280 31.1 9,820 29.0 West Midlands 450 41.7 16,980 36.9 East of England 240 29.3 11,320 25.2

London 620 43.9 22,170 41.2 Inner London 230 48.2 9,190 48.4 Outer London 390 41.6 12,980 37.3

South East 380 27.8 19,530 25.8 South West 210 27.0 11,340 26.5

Total 3,210 37.0 138,320 32.5 1 Includes primary, state funded secondary, and maintained and non-maintained special schools. Excludes general hospital schools. 2 Pupils who were eligible for free school meals at the time of the January 2007 census. 3 Number of permanent exclusions of pupils who were eligible for free school meals as a proportion of all permanent exclusions by region. Total number of exclusions includes pupils whose free school meal eligibility could not be determined. 4 Number of fixed period exclusions of pupils who were eligible for free school meals as a proportion of all fixed period exclusions by region. Total number of exclusions includes pupils whose free school meal eligibility could not be determined. Note: Figures have been rounded to the nearest 10 Source: School Census 235W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 236W

Pupils: Disadvantaged Ms Diana R. Johnson: The requested information is shown in the following tables: Mr. Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, State-funded secondary1 and grammar schools: free school meal eligibility as at Schools and Families how many and what proportion January 2009 (provisional) in England of pupils eligible to receive free school meals were not Secondary entered for a modern foreign language GCSE in each Grammar schools schools year since 2005. [277958] Number of pupils2 158,610 3,256,120 Number of pupils eligible for 3,210 434,860 Ms Diana R. Johnson: The information available is FSM given in the following table: Percentage of pupils eligible for 2.0 13.4 FSM How many and what proportion of pupils eligible to receive free school meals 1 Includes middle schools as deemed, and CTCs and Academies. were not entered for a modern foreign language GCSE in each year since 2006 2 Includes solely registered pupils only. Number Percentage Note: Pupil numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. 2008 55,342 74.1 Source: School Census 2007 55,416 72.4 State-funded secondary1 and grammar schools: special educational needs as at 2006 54,242 69.5 January 2009 (provisional) in England Source: Secondary National Pupil Database. Grammar schools schools The data are based on pupils at the end of Key Stage 4. Number of pupils2 158,610 3,256,120 Number of pupils with 350 64,950 The data for 2005 is not provided as it is not available statements of SEN on a comparable basis. Percentage of pupils with 0.2 2.0 This table included expenditure on education by other statements of SEN Government departments, non-department public bodies Number of pupils with SEN 6,250 620,450 without statements and local authorities. Detailed figures are not readily Percentage of pupils with SEN 3.9 19.1 available for future years for these other organisations. without statements Note: 1 Includes middle schools as deemed, and CTCs and Academies. 2 Includes solely registered pupils only. The Real Total Education Expenditure figure for 2006-07 should Note: read 61,569 and not 51,569. All other figures on the table are Pupil numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. correct. A correction slip is being issued and the web version Source: amended. School Census Pupils: Disadvantaged and Special Educational Needs Pupils: Per Capita Costs Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families (1) what percentage of Linda Gilroy: To ask the Secretary of State for pupils in (a) maintained secondary schools and (b) Children, Schools and Families what the average grammar schools were eligible for free school meals in expenditure per school pupil in Plymouth was in each the last year for which figures are available; [280239] year since 1989. [283267] (2) what percentage of pupils in (a) maintained secondary schools and (b) grammar schools had Mr. Coaker: The available information on the average special educational needs in the last year for which expenditure per school pupil in Plymouth is shown in figures are available. [280240] the table.

School based expenditure per pupil in local authority maintained primary, secondary and special schools from 1992-93 to 2007-08 Part A: Total (including pre-primary) 1992-93 1993-94 1994-95 1995-96 1996-97 1997-98 1998-99

England 1,960 1,950 1,990 2,020 2,060 2,080 2,190 Plymouth ——————2,090 Pre LGR Devon 1,870 1,830 1,900 1,890 1,970 1,980 —

Part B 1999-2000 2000-01 2001-02 Total Total Total (including Total (excluding (including Total (excluding (including Total (excluding pre-primary) pre-primary) pre-primary) pre-primary) pre-primary) pre-primary)

England 2,390 2,370 2,620 2,590 2,940 2,900 Plymouth 2,340 2,320 2,620 2,600 2,920 2,890 Pre LGR Devon — — — — — —

Part C: Total (excluding pre-primary) 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

England 2,950 3,230 3,440 3,710 3,950 4,170 237W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 238W

Part C: Total (excluding pre-primary) 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

Plymouth 2,920 3,140 3,400 3,680 3,900 4,150 PreLGRDevon—————— Notes: 1. School based expenditure includes only expenditure incurred directly by the schools. This includes the pay of teachers and school-based support staff, school premises costs, books and equipment, and certain other supplies and services, less any capital items funded from recurrent spending and income from sales, fees and charges and rents and rates. This excludes the central cost of support services such as home to school transport, local authority administration and the financing of capital expenditure. 2. 1999-2000 saw a change in data source when the data collection moved from the R01 form collected by the ODPM to the section 52 form from the DFES. 2002-03 saw a further break in the time series following the introduction of Consistent Financial Reporting (CFR) and the associated restructuring of the outturn tables. The change in sources is shown as parts B and C. From 2002-03 school based expenditure is taken from section 52 outturn table A line 51 net current expenditure (NCE). For 2001-02 and earlier years the expenditure is calculated as lines 1 to 12 less lines 29, 30, 35 and 37. This differs from the old Net Institutional Expenditure (NIE) calculation only in the treatment of meals and milk which is no longer excluded and no adjustments for balances are now made. This is taken from section 52 outturn table 3 for 1999-2000 to 2001-02 and from the R01 form previously. 3. The calculation for 2002-03 onwards is broadly similar to the calculation in previous years. However, 2001-02 and earlier years includes all premature retirement compensation (PRC) and Crombie payments, mandatory PRC payments and other indirect employee expenses. In 2001-02 this accounted for approximately £70 per pupil. From 2002-03 onwards only the schools element of these categories is included and this accounted for approximately £50 per pupil of the 2002-03 total. Also, for some LAs, expenditure that had previously been attributed to the school sectors was reported within the LA part of the form from 2002-03, though this is not quantifiable from existing sources. 4. Pupil numbers include only those pupils attending maintained establishments within each sector and are drawn from the DFES Annual Schools Census adjusted to be on a financial year basis. 5. Local government reorganisation (LGR) took place during the mid to late 1990s and those LAs that did not exist either pre or post LGR are shaded out for those years. 6. Spending in 1997-98 reflects the transfer of monies from local government to central Government for the nursery vouchers scheme. These were returned to local government from 1998-99. 7. The 1999-2000 figures reflect the return of GM schools to local authority maintenance. Consequently LAs where there entire pupil provision were educated in GM schools will show a unit cost of zero prior to 1999-2000. 8. Expenditure was not distinguished between the pre-primary and primary sectors until the inception of section 52 for financial year 1999-2000. 9. School based expenditure in LA maintained nursery schools was not recorded in 2002-03 and comparable figures are not available for 2003-04 onwards. 10. Figures are rounded to the nearest £10. Cash terms figures as reported by local authorities as at 26 June.

Schools: Expenditure Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department does not centrally collect data on home educated children by Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, type of special educational need. Schools and Families what proportion of the spending on education identified on page 173 of his Department’s Annual Report 2009, Cm 7595, is Sure Start Programme: Enfield expenditure on schools; and if he will make a statement. [282070] Joan Ryan: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how much his Ms Diana R. Johnson: The proportion of expenditure Department has spent on each Sure Start centre in (a) on education identified on page 173 of the Departmental the London Borough of Enfield and (b) Enfield North Report 2009 which relates to schools is as follows: constituency in each year since such centres were established. [282571] Percentage Financial year Proportion Dawn Primarolo: Sure Start local programmes (SSLPs), 1997-98 65.0 the forerunner of Sure Start Children’s Centres, were 1998-99 65.4 introduced in waves from 1999-2000. There has been 1999-00 67.6 one trailblazer SSLP in Enfield since the beginning of 2000-01 68.6 the initiative. 2001-02 69.8 From 2006-07, to reflect SSLPs transition to children’s 2002-03 69.9 centres, the SSLP Grant was paid to local authorities 2003-04 67.9 together with children’s centre funding as part of the 2004-05 68.1 Sure Start, Early Years and Childcare Grant (formerly 2005-06 68.0 the General Sure Start Grant). Under the terms and 2006-07 67.8 conditions of that grant, local authorities have a degree 2007-08 67.3 of freedom in the allocation and use of the funding 2008-09 66.9 provided to best meet their local objectives. Furthermore, in an effort to reduce the monitoring burden the Department Special Educational Needs only requires them to report expenditure at a local level, rather than by individual children’s centre. It is therefore Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for not possible to provide a breakdown of expenditure by Children, Schools and Families how many and what individual children’s centre. percentage of pupils with special educational needs are The following tables set out total expenditure on the home schooled in each local authority area, broken SSLP and all children’s centres in Enfield for each down by the type of special educational need. [268487] financial year since programme inception. 239W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 240W

London borough of Enfield Sure Start Children’s Centre Expenditure Expenditure 1999-2000 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06

SSLP Revenue 38,775 715,528 1,160,758 1,164,802 1,311,845 1,308,067 1,373,262 SSLP Capital 0 143,173 315,448 32,799 19,512 85,656 0 Children’s Centre Revenue 0000075,792842,401 Children’s Centre Capital 00000195,082 1,424,112

Total Revenue 38,775 715,528 1,160,758 1,164,802 1,311,845 1,383,859 2,215,663 Total Capital 0 143,173 315,448 32,799 19,512 280,738 1,424,112

Grand total 38,775 858,701 1,476,206 1,197,601 1,331,357 1,664,597 3,639,775

Expenditure Allocation 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 Total

SSLP Revenue 1,006,874 500,000 456,402 453,148 9,450,686 SSLP Capital 0 0 0 0 596,588 Children’s Centre Revenue 2,037,493 2,440,685 4,606,498 5,988,268 15,991,137 Children’s Centre Capital 1,337,013 1,183,315 694,755 1,454,749 6,289,026

Total Revenue 3,044,367 2,940,685 5,062,900 6,441,416 25,441,823 Total Capital 1,337,013 1,183,315 694,755 1,454,749 6,885,614

Grand total 4,381,380 4,124,000 5,757,655 7,896,165 32,327,437

Sure Start Programme: Lancashire together with children’s centre funding as part of the Sure Start, Early Years and Childcare Grant (formerly Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for the General Sure Start Grant). Under the terms and Children, Schools and Families how much has been conditions of that grant, local authorities have a degree spent from the public purse on each Sure Start centre in of freedom in the allocation and use of the funding each parliamentary constituency in the Lancashire provided to best meet their local objectives. Furthermore, County Council area in each year since the scheme’s in an effort to reduce the monitoring burden the Department inception. [282073] only requires them to report expenditure at a local level, rather than by individual children’s centre. It is therefore Dawn Primarolo: Sure Start local programmes (SSLPs), not possible to provide a breakdown of expenditure by the forerunner of Sure Start children’s centres, were individual SSLP or children’s centre. introduced in waves from 1999-2000. By 2003-04 there were 17 SSLPs operating in Lancashire. The following tables set out total expenditure on all From 2006-07, to reflect SSLPs transition to children’s SSLPs and children’s centres in Lancashire for each centres, the SSLP Grant was paid to local authorities financial year since programme inception.

Lancashire Sure Start Children’s Centre Expenditure Expenditure 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06

SSLP Revenue 489,929 1,895,584 5,012,939 9,362,926 11,606,029 12,589,813 SSLP Capital 30,574 72,918 899,823 3,306,702 4,320,379 3,886,509 Children’s Centre Revenue 0 0 0 0 9,023 2,514,650 Children’s Centre Capital 0 0 0 0 90,870 4,638,150

Total Revenue 489,929 1,895,584 5,012,939 9,362,926 11,615,052 15,104,463 Total Capital 30,574 72,918 899,823 3,306,702 4,411,249 8,524,659

Grand total 520,503 1,968,502 5,912,762 12,669,628 16,026,301 23,629,122

Expenditure Allocation 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 Total

SSLP Revenue 12,378,766 10,722,226 10,439,383 9,020,446 83,518,041 SSLP Capital 0 0 0 0 12,516,905 Children’s Centre Revenue 5,021,283 7,111,296 11,852,273 15,344,023 41,852,548 Children’s Centre Capital 7,536,921 7,211,735 1,272,514 3,302,854 24,053,044 241W Written Answers30 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 242W

Expenditure Allocation 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 Total

Total Revenue 17,400,049 17,833,522 22,291,656 24,364,469 125,370,589 Total Capital 7,536,921 7,211,735 1,272,514 3,302,854 36,569,949

Grand total 24,936,970 25,045,257 23,564,170 27,667,323 161,940,538

Teachers: Training No teacher may be required to work on any Saturday, Sunday or public holiday unless his or her contract of employment expressly provides for this. Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families pursuant to the answer In relation to teachers participating in CPD during of 1 June 2009, Official Report, column 284W, on school holidays, there is nothing to prohibit teachers teachers: training, what recent discussions he has had undertaking such activity during those periods. However, with representatives of teachers’ professional bodies head teachers, in carrying out their duties in deploying and industry on teachers’ continuing professional and managing staff, must have regard to the desirability development; and what recent consideration he has of teachers being able to achieve a satisfactory balance given to teachers’ participation in continuing between the time required to discharge their professional professional development during school holidays. duties and the time required to pursue their personal [282489] interests outside work. Young People: Carers Mr. Coaker: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families has regular Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for discussions with representatives of teachers’ professional Children, Schools and Families what recent estimate he bodies and industry to discuss teachers’ continuing has made of the number of young carers in (a) professional development (CPD). He has not given Chorley and (b) Lancashire. [282074] recent consideration to teachers participating in CPD during school holidays. Dawn Primarolo: The 2001 census, which is the only Under the provisions of the School Teachers’ Pay source of nationally comparable data on the number of and Conditions Document (STPCD), teachers are carers of all ages, indicated that there were some 300 contracted to work under the direction of a head teacher children and young people aged under 18 in Chorley for 1,265 hours over 195 days. They are required to and 4,000 in Lancashire as a whole who were offering teach and perform other duties for 190 of those days some care to family members, neighbours, friends or and are to be available for deployment at the head’s others. discretion for the other five days to perform duties The census records young people who are described other than teaching. These five days are commonly by the adults in the household as offering care to their known as school closure days and schools can and do families or communities. This includes young people use them for a variety of CPD/school planning activities. who are responsible for the care of a family member The timing and organisation of these days is entirely for (which is how young carers are more usually defined) individual local authorities, governing bodies, and head plus others who may provide more occasional support teachers to determine, but we look to them to be sensitive such as child care for their parents or care for neighbours to local circumstances in deciding which days to choose. and friends. 3MC Ministerial Corrections30 JUNE 2009 Ministerial Corrections 4MC

new guarantee for parents of a personal tutor for pupils Ministerial Correction at secondary and primary schools and catch-up tuition, including one-to-one tuition for those who need it. Tuesday 30 June 2009 [Official Report, 29 June 2009, Vol. 495, c. 23.] Letter of correction from the Office of the Prime Minister: An error has been identified in the Prime Minister’s PRIME MINISTER statement on Building Britain’s Future on 29 June Building Britain’s Future 2009. This error occurred during the delivery of the statement, copies of which were sent in advance to both the Table Office and Hansard. The Prime Minister: …The second set of public service entitlements will be for parents, with a guarantee of The correct text should read: individually tailored education for their children, as part of far-reaching reform in the schools system. I The Prime Minister: …. It is right that personal want all our children to have opportunities that are tutoring should be extended to all who need it, so there available today only to those who can pay for them in will be a new guarantee for parents of a personal tutor private education. It is right that personal tutoring for pupils at secondary schools and catch-up tuition, should be extended to all who need it, so there will be a including one-to-one tuition for those who need it.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 30 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 145 FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— Afghanistan ...... 145 continued EU Regional Aid Programmes...... 150 Sri Lanka ...... 151 Helmand Province...... 155 Sri Lanka ...... 156 Iran...... 146 Taxation (Bingo Clubs)...... 273 Lisbon Agenda...... 157 Tibet ...... 150 Middle East ...... 152 Topical Questions ...... 158 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 30 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 7WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 11WS Housing ...... 7WS Identity and Passport Service...... 11WS

NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 14WS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 10WS Youth Justice Agency of Northern Ireland Health and Safety Executive’s Nuclear Directorate (Corporate Plan and Business Plan)...... 14WS (Restructuring)...... 10WS TRANSPORT ...... 14WS Olympic Route Network Designation Order 2009.. 14WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL TREASURY ...... 7WS AFFAIRS...... 10WS UK and IMF 2007 and 2008...... 7WS Dairy Farmers of Britain ...... 10WS Marine and Fisheries Agency (Annual Report and WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 16WS Accounts) ...... 11WS Departmental Report...... 16WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 30 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 143W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES—continued Debts ...... 143W EC Law...... 231W Internet: Iran ...... 144W European Union: Primary Education ...... 232W Jordan: Overseas Trade ...... 144W Further Education ...... 232W Motor Vehicles: Manufacturing Industries...... 145W Outdoor Education...... 233W Regulatory Policy Committee ...... 145W Pupil Exclusions: Disadvantaged ...... 234W Science: Education ...... 145W Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 235W Setanta...... 146W Pupils: Disadvantaged and Special Educational Students: Loans ...... 147W Needs...... 235W UK Trade and Investment: Offices...... 147W Pupils: Per Capita Costs...... 236W Schools: Expenditure ...... 237W CABINET OFFICE...... 161W Special Educational Needs...... 237W Breast Cancer: Males...... 161W Sure Start Programme: Enfield ...... 238W Central Office of Information: Expenditure...... 161W Sure Start Programme: Lancashire...... 239W Central Office of Information: Security ...... 161W Teachers: Training...... 241W Jobseeker’s Allowance: South Yorkshire...... 161W Young People: Carers...... 242W Regional Planning and Development: South East.. 162W Unemployment: Merseyside...... 162W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 188W Community Relations ...... 188W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 226W Council Tax ...... 189W Apprentices...... 226W Council Tax: Appeals...... 189W Child Workforce Development Council ...... 226W Council Tax: Valuation ...... 189W Children: Databases...... 228W Departmental Lost Property ...... 190W Children in Care: Essex...... 227W Departmental Pay ...... 191W Children in Care: Missing Persons ...... 227W Departmental Public Consultation...... 191W Children’s Centres: Tamworth ...... 228W Emergency Services: Overseas Aid ...... 191W Demos...... 229W eQuality Networks ...... 192W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 229W Equity ...... 192W Departmental Data Protection...... 230W Green Belt...... 192W Departmental Press...... 230W Green Belt: Dorset ...... 192W Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— continued continued Homes and Communities Agency: Finance ...... 193W Departmental Food...... 185W Housing: Low Incomes ...... 195W Embassies: Correspondence...... 186W Local Authority Challenge Fund ...... 196W EU Budget ...... 183W Local Government ...... 196W EU-Pakistan Summit ...... 182W Local Government Finance: East Midlands...... 196W European Union ...... 182W Local Government Finance: ICT ...... 197W International Atomic Energy Agency...... 186W Local Government: Pensions ...... 198W Iran...... 184W Local Government Services: Complaints ...... 197W Iran: Politics and Government ...... 186W Markets...... 198W Israel...... 182W National Skills Academies: Thurrock ...... 198W Members: Correspondence ...... 187W Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act Nuclear Weapons...... 187W 2006 ...... 199W Pakistan ...... 184W Non-Domestic Rates...... 199W Presidential Election: Ukraine ...... 184W Non-Domestic Rates: Essex ...... 200W Saudi Arabia: Foreign Relations ...... 188W Ordnance Survey: Public Relations ...... 200W Somalia: Piracy ...... 188W Recreation Spaces ...... 200W Regional Planning and Development: East of HEALTH...... 211W England ...... 201W Abortion ...... 211W Regional Planning and Development: South East.. 201W Alcohol and Drug Misuse: Elderly...... 211W Right to Buy Scheme ...... 201W Alcoholic Drinks: Misuse...... 211W Social Rented Housing: Essex ...... 202W Carer’s Allowance...... 211W Social Rented Housing: Islington...... 202W Drugs: Rehabilitation...... 212W Social Rented Housing: Tamworth ...... 203W Elderly: Health Services ...... 213W Stop Notices: Travelling People...... 203W Fluoridation...... 213W Temporary Accommodation: Cleveland...... 203W Fluoridation: North West ...... 213W Urban Areas ...... 204W Fractures: Elderly...... 214W Health Services: Islington ...... 214W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 124W Hospitals...... 215W Digital Broadcasting: Derbyshire...... 124W Local Investment Finance Trust Schemes ...... 215W National Lottery: Merseyside ...... 124W Malaria ...... 216W Malnutrition ...... 216W DEFENCE...... 147W NHS Business Services Authority ...... 216W Afghanistan: Armed Forces ...... 147W NHS: Death Rates ...... 218W Armed Forces: Health Services ...... 148W NHS Innovation Expo ...... 217W Armed Forces: Mental Health Services...... 148W NHS: Religious Practice...... 218W Departmental Information and Communications NHS: Stress...... 219W Technology ...... 149W Nutrition...... 219W Economic and Monetary Union ...... 149W Obesity: Medical Treatments...... 219W Equipment: Procurement ...... 150W Obesity: Surgery...... 219W Pakistan: Military Aid ...... 150W Respite Care...... 221W Type 45 Destroyers...... 151W Veterans Forum...... 151W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 163W Community Policing: Enfield ...... 163W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 120W Crimes of Violence...... 163W Carbon Emissions: Housing...... 120W Departmental Consultants...... 164W Carbon Emissions: Standards ...... 119W DNA: Databases...... 165W Departmental Billing ...... 120W Entry Clearances...... 165W Departmental Data Protection...... 121W Forced Marriages: Victim Support Schemes ...... 165W Departmental Energy...... 121W Forensic Science Service: Chorley ...... 166W Departmental Work Experience...... 121W Hillsborough Stadium: Disclosure of Information. 166W Electric Cables ...... 122W Members: Correspondence ...... 166W Energy: Consumers...... 122W Overseas Students: Entry Clearances ...... 166W Energy Supply...... 122W Passports...... 167W Entec UK...... 122W Police: Lancashire ...... 167W Mike Anderson ...... 123W Police: Voluntary Work ...... 168W Nuclear Power Stations...... 123W Road Traffic Offences...... 168W Radioactive Fallout: Exemptions ...... 123W Serious and Organised Crime Agency...... 169W Warm Front Scheme ...... 123W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 222W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Departmental Billing ...... 222W AFFAIRS...... 139W Departmental Drinking Water ...... 222W Environment Agency: Manpower ...... 139W Departmental Internet ...... 222W Forests ...... 141W Departmental Manpower...... 222W Departmental Press Releases...... 222W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 182W Departmental Training ...... 223W Afghanistan ...... 183W International Women’s Day ...... 223W Bagram Detention Facility...... 183W Investing for Development ...... 223W Colombia ...... 185W Iraq: Peacekeeping Operations...... 224W Colombia: Military Aid ...... 185W Overseas Aid: Emergency Services ...... 224W Col. No. Col. No. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—continued TRANSPORT—continued Overseas Aid: Indonesia ...... 224W Ports: British Overseas Territories...... 157W Sri Lanka ...... 225W Railway Stations: Disabled...... 157W Sub-Saharan Africa: Malaria...... 225W Railways: Franchises ...... 157W Sudan: Elections ...... 225W Railways: Hearing Impaired...... 157W United Nations: Females ...... 226W Railways: Maintenance ...... 158W Railways: West Midlands ...... 158W JUSTICE...... 169W Road Traffic...... 159W Ashwell Prison ...... 169W Roads: Construction ...... 160W Damages Act 1996 ...... 169W Transport: Essex ...... 160W Domestic Violence: National Offender Management Service...... 170W TREASURY ...... 204W Ernst and Young...... 170W Council Tax: Valuation Office Agency ...... 204W Judicial Appointments for England and Wales...... 170W Departmental Buildings...... 204W Judicial Appointments for England and Wales: Departmental Plants ...... 205W Consultants...... 171W Departmental Research...... 205W Judicial Appointments for England and Wales: Equitable Life Assurance Society...... 205W Manpower ...... 171W Financial Services Compensation Scheme...... 205W Legal Aid ...... 172W Individual Savings Accounts: Merseyside ...... 206W Mentally Disturbed Offenders ...... 173W Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander...... 206W National Offender Management Service ...... 173W Loans: Government ...... 206W Offences against Children: Prosecutions...... 173W Members: Correspondence ...... 207W Pleural Plaques ...... 175W Non-Domestic Rates...... 207W Prison Sentences ...... 176W Non-Domestic Rates: Valuation ...... 207W Prison Service: Probation...... 176W Operational Efficiency Programme Review ...... 207W Prisoners ...... 177W Pensions...... 208W Prisoners: Foreigners...... 177W Revenue and Customs: ICT ...... 208W Prisoners: Personal Property...... 177W Seaton Delaval Hall ...... 208W Prisons: Drug Abuse ...... 175W Tax: Revenues ...... 209W Prisons: Mental Health Services...... 178W Taxation: Domicile ...... 209W Prisons: Probation...... 178W Taxation: Gaming Machines...... 209W Prisons: Training...... 177W Taxation: Pensioners ...... 209W Probation ...... 178W Taxation: Rebates...... 210W Probation: Hampshire...... 181W Valuation Office ...... 210W Probation: Wales...... 181W Valuation Office Agency: Pay...... 210W

NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 125W WALES...... 143W Departmental Billing ...... 125W Departmental Pay ...... 143W Departmental Energy...... 125W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 143W Departmental Internet ...... 125W WOMEN AND EQUALITY ...... 188W Departmental Recruitment ...... 126W Pensions...... 188W Departmental Training ...... 126W Northern Ireland Act 2009...... 126W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 126W Parades ...... 126W Business: Government Assistance...... 126W Carers Benefits: Pensioners...... 127W OLYMPICS ...... 119W Departmental Data Protection ...... 127W Olympic Games 2012: Facilities...... 119W Departmental Food ...... 127W EC Law...... 127W TRANSPORT ...... 151W Electronic Government: Operating Costs ...... 128W A419 ...... 151W Employment Schemes...... 128W Bus Lanes: Essex...... 151W Employment Schemes: Greater Manchester ...... 129W Buses: Concessions ...... 152W Employment Services...... 130W Channel Tunnel Railway Line ...... 152W Jobcentre Plus: Complaints ...... 131W Crossrail Line: Contracts ...... 152W Jobcentre Plus: Manpower...... 132W Cycling: Schools...... 153W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 137W Departmental Manpower...... 155W Local Employment Partnerships...... 137W Departmental Pay ...... 156W New Deal for Young People: Suffolk...... 137W Fuels: EU Law ...... 156W Poverty: Merseyside ...... 138W Highways Agency ...... 156W Social Security Benefits ...... 138W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Tuesday 30 June 2009

Col. No. PRIME MINISTER...... 3MC Building Britain’s Future...... 3MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 30 June 2009

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 145] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs

21st Century Schools [Col. 165] Statement—(Ed Balls)

Hydrofluorocarbons Limitation [Col. 183] Motion for leave to introduce Bill—(Clive Efford)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Parliamentary Standards Bill [Col. 186] Considered in Committee

Petition [Col. 273]

Standards Board for England [Col. 274] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Repossession and Mortgage Arrears (Assistance) [Col. 1WH] Forensic Science Service [Col. 23WH] Strategic Development Area (Eastleigh) [Col. 48WH] Charges for Oxygen (Airlines) [Col. 56WH] Wind Farms (Northamptonshire) [Col. 63WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 7WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 119W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 3MC]