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1 Special Tribunal for Lebanon
2 In the case of The Prosecutor v. Ayyash, Badreddine, Merhi,
3 Oneissi, and Sabra
4 STL-11-01
5 Presiding Judge David Re, Judge Janet Nosworthy,
6 Judge Micheline Braidy, Judge Walid Akoum, and
7 Judge Nicola Lettieri - [Trial Chamber]
8 Tuesday, 5 May 2015 - [Trial Hearing]
9 [Open Session]
10 --- Upon commencing at 9.48 a.m.
11 THE REGISTRAR: The Special Tribunal for Lebanon is sitting in an
12 open session in the case of the Prosecutor versus Ayyash, Badreddine,
13 Merhi, Oneissi, and Sabra, case number STL-11-01.
14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Good morning. We will continue with the
15 evidence of Mr. Jumblatt. I note the appearances of Mr. Cameron for the
16 Prosecution, Mr. Haynes and Ms. Abdelsater-Abusamra for the Legal
17 Representative for the Victims, Mr. Aoun for Mr. Ayyash, Mr. Korkmaz and
18 Mr. Edwards for Mr. Badreddine, Mr. Roberts for Mr. Sabra, Mr. Hassan for
19 Mr. Oneissi, Mr. Aouini for Mr. Merhi. And there are three people from
20 the Defence Office seated in the court this morning.
21 Good morning to you, Mr. Jumblatt.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I trust you've been able to refresh yourself
24 overnight and are ready to resume your evidence.
25 Just a short administrative matter. The Prosecution filed what
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1 they called an urgent Prosecution request to vary disclosure time-limit
2 yesterday, seeking an extension of time until the 29th of May to do some
3 disclosure. I don't need a response from the Defence at the moment, but
4 can you please turn your minds to this during the day and we'll deal with
5 it at some point later this afternoon.
6 Mr. Roberts.
7 MR. ROBERTS: Sorry, just to check, you wanted to deal with it
8 orally this afternoon? Okay great. Thank you.
9 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I understand that counsel for Mr. Sabra are
10 the only ones who have received it. It was courtesy copied. It hasn't
11 been distributed yet. But I'm sure you'll be able to turn your minds to
12 this and master the complexities of this particular filing by this
13 afternoon.
14 Mr. Cameron.
15 MR. CAMERON: Thank you.
16 WITNESS: WALID JUMBLATT [Resumed]
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Examination by Mr. Cameron: [Continued]
19 Q. Good morning, Mr. Jumblatt.
20 A. [In English] Good morning. [Interpretation] Good morning.
21 Q. When we left off yesterday, we were dealing with what had been
22 admitted as Exhibit 424 in the proceedings, which is at Prosecution queue
23 number 19 in the English and number 20 in the Arabic. And it is a
24 Press Review issued by the United Nations Information Centre dated the
25 6th of September, 2004. And we had been looking at page 2, which is
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1 ERN D0410763, and I wanted to ask you about three different positions
2 that are set out in three paragraphs of the Press Review. The first
3 position appears midway down the page under the heading: "US Contends
4 Lahoud's Extension Dictated By Occupation Force." And the text reads:
5 "The United States said that the extension of President Emile
6 Lahoud's term as president of Lebanon was an 'operation dictated on the
7 Lebanese by an occupation force,' An-Nahar reported Sunday according to
8 Naharnet. In a statement released Saturday, the White House in
9 Washington said, 'The vote by the Lebanese parliament to amend the
10 constitution ... is a distortion of democracy.' It added that, 'It is
11 not a victory for democracy. It does not reflect the will of the
12 Lebanese people. It was forced on them by an occupation force,' in
13 reference to Syria. It also branded the Syrian action as a direct
14 contradiction to Resolution 1559 of the UN Security Council."
15 Now, were you aware of the publicly broadcast positions of the
16 United States during this period regarding the extension of
17 President Lahoud? And I'm going to ask you whether this is consistent
18 with your understanding, or not, of what was being published about the US
19 position during this period?
20 A. I was not aware in advance of the intentions or the opinions of
21 the United States regarding this issue. I was not aware.
22 Q. My question was: Is this the type of thing that was being
23 published around this period of time reflecting US -- the US position
24 regarding the extension of President Lahoud? Whether you are aware of it
25 or not, were you aware of the publicity and this kind of public statement
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1 being reported of the US position?
2 A. I read it like anyone else in the newspapers, as I read it today,
3 in newspapers.
4 Q. And was this kind of paragraph typical of what you would read
5 during that period of time?
6 A. As I previously mentioned, we were committed to the
7 Taif Agreement, which is very clear, in saying that the Syrians must
8 withdraw from Lebanon according to a certain plan and schedule. But from
9 the start we did not approve 1559. That was a basic position.
10 Q. Please listen more closely to my question. It's a fairly simple
11 question. I read you a passage that was reported in the UN Press Review
12 about the US position. All I'm asking you is not your position or
13 whether you knew of it in advance. The only thing I'm asking you is
14 whether this kind of sentiment was typical of the things that were
15 published about the US position back in September of 2004?
16 A. I do not remember. I do not remember hearing such positions.
17 I've read this in the newspapers.
18 Q. All right. If I could take you to page 3 of this UN Press Review
19 which is at ERN D0410764 under the heading: "Hezbollah Says France Made
20 a Mistake." And the paragraph reads:
21 "Hezbollah's Deputy Secretary-General Sheikh Naim Kassem has said
22 Hezbollah is committed to Lebanese-Syrian relations now more than ever.
23 He insisted that both Lebanon and Syria should co-operate to counter
24 possible challenges in the future, the liberal daily Al-Balad reported
25 Monday. 'After France got involved in a losing battle (following its
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1 support of the US ... resolution against Syria), it lost some of its
2 credibility in the region,' Kassem said. 'France should have weighed the
3 Lebanese mood before participating with the US in this decision,' ..."
4 Now, during this period of time do you have an understanding of
5 the relationship between Hezbollah and the Syrian regime back in the
6 latter half of 2004 and into 2005?
7 A. The relationship between Hezbollah and the Syrian regime had
8 always been good. Historically it was a good relationship and nothing
9 has changed.
10 Q. When you say "a good relationship," what do you mean by that?
11 A. When the Taif Agreement was prepared and we agreed on disarming
12 the Lebanese militias, the resistance - this is what we call it
13 today - the Hezbollah militias remained an armed militia in order to
14 liberate Lebanon from the Israeli occupation. And that was something
15 that was agreed upon between all parties within the Lebanese state and
16 with Syria.
17 Q. You had times when you had good relations and bad relations with
18 the Syrian regime. When you say that the Syrian regime and Hezbollah had
19 good relations during this period of time, notwithstanding the
20 Taif Accord of the early 1990s, in 2004 and early 2005, what do you mean
21 when you say that the relationship between Syria and Hezbollah was good?
22 A. It's a long-standing relationship that started during the days of
23 President Hafez Al-Assad. Hezbollah was one of the parties that
24 supported Syria, as it was the case for me at a certain point before I
25 began dissociating myself from Syria as of 1998 till 2004, but we were
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1 all in what was called the national alliance, the Lebanese-Syrian
2 national alliance. It was well-known. We were supporting Syria and
3 Hezbollah was one of the pro-Syrian parties.
4 Q. And if I could go to pages 4 and 5, which are at D -- ERN
5 D0410765 to 0766, beginning at the first page, page 4, under the heading:
6 "Parliamentarians Voted for Assad's Policies." Now, yesterday I asked
7 you a question as to whether it was publicly discussed during the early
8 part of September 2004 that the Prime Minister's vote on the extension
9 had not been done of his own free will, and you replied that everyone
10 knew that he had been compelled to approve the extension because of the
11 threat by the Syrian regime. So against that answer I'd like to read you
12 this passage.
13 "The majority of Lebanese parliamentarians voted Friday in favour
14 of amending the constitution and gave President Lahoud another
15 opportunity to build the state and reform the country. The truth is also
16 that the majority of parliamentarians gave Syrian President Assad for his
17 way of managing the conflict against the international pressures
18 targeting the Arab world, one country after the other, wrote
19 editor-in-chief Charles Ayoub in a front-page editorial for the Beirut
20 pro-Syrian daily Ad-Diyar. 'That is why every second, every minute,
21 every hour, every day is precious time for President Lahoud and any
22 Lebanese official to respond to the pressures by succeeding in the
23 building of state institutions,' Ayoub contended."
24 Now, having regard to your answer yesterday that basically
25 everybody knew that the reasons underlying the Prime Minister's change of
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1 position to support the extension, do you know why an article or a
2 sentiment like this would appear from the editor-in-chief Charles Ayoub
3 in Ad-Diyar Newspaper?
4 A. I don't know, but it is well-known that Mr. Charles Ayoub is a --
5 was a supporter of the Syrian presence, that was his opinion and the
6 opinion of Ad-Diyar Newspaper, but here you are reading only one
7 newspaper. There are different opinions, various opinions, and up until
8 now we have free press, and that is Ayoub's own opinion.
9 Q. Do you know what Mr. Ayoub's political affiliations are or were
10 during that time?
11 A. I said that he was a supporter of Syria. I don't know more than
12 that. I'm not aware of more than that.
13 Q. I'd like to go now to --
14 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: May I ask a question. I don't know if I may
15 properly call you Walid Beik, but, Mr. Jumblatt, with reference to the
16 passage that was just read --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Jumblatt is fine. Thank you.
18 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: -- I want you to look at it for me and answer
19 me: Was there a feeling in the Lebanon that the Arab countries were
20 being targeted and pressure was being placed on them from the
21 international community? That's my first question. And my next question
22 is: Would there have been a feeling by some politicians and persons in
23 the Lebanon that insofar as protecting the Arab community was concerned
24 and advancing his causes, that Assad may have been viewed in a more
25 positive light rather than as an oppressor or a dictator, and therefore
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1 the extension of Mr. Lahoud's mandate may not have been seen as such a
2 negative thing for the Lebanon, firstly, and the Arab community
3 generally?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When Resolution 1559 was adopted,
5 and at least from our side, the side of Qornet-Chehwan, my own camp, and
6 my friends and allies, we viewed this resolution as something threatened
7 Arab security, but we always had a position of principle and that is to
8 commit to the Taif Agreement, the Taif Agreement meaning a staggered
9 withdrawal of the Syrian forces pursuant to Taif. And if I understood
10 your question, your second question well, regarding the Arab community --
11 I will answer my own way: Bashar Al-Assad was one of the tyrants who
12 ruled and continued to rule in the Arab country. He is not the one and
13 only tyrant.
14 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And if I may go back a little bit earlier, use
15 this opportunity, to evidence that you gave, and you mentioned that there
16 were groups wanting the Syrian presence and they used as an excuse the
17 fact that not all of the reforms stipulated in the Taif had been
18 implemented. Were there, in fact, reforms stipulated in the Taif that
19 had not at that stage been implemented? And if yes, what were they?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were a number of reforms.
21 The most important what is called the abolishing of political
22 confessionalism. This is something that has not been abolished. I think
23 that a committee was constituted to abolish political confessionalism.
24 They took their time to think about it, but they never managed to abolish
25 political confessionalism, and this is something that the Syrians know.
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1 They know that the Lebanese society cannot abolish political
2 confessionalism. Even the Arab community is something where this
3 political confessionalism is enshrined even if some regimes claim that
4 they are secular and progressive, but at some level they were also
5 confessional, be it in Syria or in Iraq, for example. So the pretext
6 that they stayed because political confessionalism has not been abolished
7 was simply a pretext that was being used to allow them to stay.
8 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Were there any other reforms that were
9 outstanding?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not recall. Right now I
11 cannot recall. I don't know.
12 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much.
13 MR. CAMERON: The next document I'd like to show the witness
14 appears at position 21 in the English and 22 in the Arabic on the
15 presentation queue. It is a Press Review issued by the United Nations
16 Information Centre dated the 13th of September, 2004, and it begins with
17 the ERN number D0411370 to 379. It was deemed admissible by the
18 Trial Chamber's decision F1802 of the 30th of December, 2014, and
19 appeared originally in the Rule 154 Prosecution motion F1711 dated the
20 21st of October, 2014, in annex A 1.2, row 157, and is listed in annex B,
21 row 229.
22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: You're after all that seeking an exhibit
23 number?
24 MR. CAMERON: Yes, please.
25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: That will be P425.
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1 MR. CAMERON: Thank you. If the witness could be shown page 4 of
2 that document which bears the ERN number D0411373.
3 Q. Now, Mr. Jumblatt, to remind you this was published by the
4 UN Press Review on the 13th of September, 2004, and the heading under the
5 passage that I'm going to read now is: "Jumblatt Urges Syria to Stop
6 Interfering in Lebanon's Intricacies." And the text reads:
7 "Druze MP and leader of the Progressive Socialist Party, Walid
8 Jumblatt, has called on Syria anew to stop 'interfering in Lebanon's
9 intricacies,' asserting his unshakeable adherence to the strategic
10 alliance between the two countries but insisting that Lebanon's 'unique
11 status ought to be respected,' An-Nahar reported on Sunday according to
12 its Naharnet web site. Jumblatt made his declaration to visiting
13 delegations Saturday while he met with opposition leader Nasib Lahoud,
14 leader of the Democratic Renewal Movement.
15 "Jumblatt, who fiercely opposed Syria's intervention to dictate a
16 three-year extension of President Lahoud's term, laid particular emphasis
17 on freedom in Lebanon, recalling that the Soviet Union collapsed 15 years
18 ago when 'it hit a dead-end about public freedoms.' Nasib Lahoud, in
19 turn, said at the Mokhtara meeting that Lebanon's democracy, sovereignty,
20 and liberties must be safe-guarded wishing that a timetable be introduced
21 for Syria's military withdrawal."
22 Now, this looks from an outsider to be fairly strong language
23 that is used, and is it typical of your public statements on this issue
24 around this period of time?
25 A. Yes, this is my stance, my position, in principle regarding the
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1 interference of the Syrians with Lebanon's internal affairs, the
2 implementation of the Taif Agreement, their withdrawal from Lebanon,
3 while also asserting that we need good relations, be it strategic or
4 others, between Lebanon and Syria. This is governed by our geopolitics,
5 Lebanon, Syria, Israel, and the sea, this is the context where we are.
6 Q. The next paragraph, which is the final paragraph I'll read from
7 this document, is under the heading: "Opposition Reorganizing."
8 "Opponents of the regime and the extension of President Lahoud's
9 mandate were in the meantime reorganizing. MP Lahoud and Walid Jumblatt
10 held a meeting at Jumblatt's stronghold of Mokhtara on Saturday to
11 discuss the future action of their opposition front based upon a joint
12 political ground and programme, As-Safir reported Monday. It quoted
13 sources from Jumblatt's PSP and Lahoud's Democratic Renewal Movement as
14 saying the two sides agreed first on drafting a joint working paper with
15 all other parties and groups opposed to Lahoud's extension and which have
16 signed the petition for defending the constitution, including the
17 Qornet-Chehwan Gathering, the Democratic Forum, and the
18 Leftist Democratic Movement. The joint working paper, the source said,
19 will focus on 'defending the republic and the constitution as well as the
20 system of freedoms which is opposed to having military or security people
21 in power or interfering in politics.'"
22 This seems to suggest that there is the beginning of a coalition
23 with you and a number of other parties around the ideas expressed in this
24 paragraph. My question of you is: Had there been a time in Lebanese
25 politics where such a coalition had been formed in the past or was this
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1 something new?
2 A. No, this was not a novelty. There has always been an opposition
3 to the Syrian presence in Lebanon. Before us other parties opposed the
4 Syrian presence in Lebanon, the Phalangists, the Lebanese Forces,
5 General Michel Aoun, and others. This was not something new, but what
6 was new is that such a coalition came to the existence after the
7 extension of the president's term, and I was keen on enlarging the
8 opposition scale to face and -- or to counter the Syrian presence. But
9 this was not something new. We have always seen Lebanese factions
10 opposed to the Syrian presence.
11 Q. I understand that there may have been particular Syrian factions
12 opposed to the Syrian presence and in vocal terms. My question is: Is
13 this -- is the coming together of these groups something new in Lebanese
14 politics or had there been the kind of coalition which this paragraph
15 seeks to describe in the past? Was the coalition new or had there been
16 one previously?
17 A. I'll take myself as a starting point. I was one of Syria's
18 allies; however, based on some circumstances, namely, the extension of
19 the president's term and prior to that also being opposed to the election
20 of President Lahoud, there came a point in time where I said: Enough is
21 enough. After the liberation of South Lebanon, after Israel's withdrawal
22 from Lebanon in the year 2000, I said it's about time for Lebanon to be
23 an independent country, it is about time for us as Lebanese to determine
24 our own destiny. Of course there are -- there were some groups that were
25 allied to the Syrians and then later on joined my new position.
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1 Q. Do you continue to visit with the Prime Minister during this
2 period of time reasonably regularly?
3 A. Always. We used to hold regular meetings, namely, on Sunday
4 evening. And when there was a need to contact him to convey a certain
5 message, I used to contact him in person or send Marwan Hamade or
6 Ghazi Aridi. We were constantly in touch.
7 Q. And you will recall yesterday when I had described the three
8 possible models of Syrian withdrawal, first model being the one advocated
9 by Patriarch Sfeir of immediate withdrawal; your model, which was a
10 staged withdrawal in accordance with the Taif Accord; and the third model
11 being the status quo that they would remain. Did the Prime Minister
12 share your view of the model of Syrian withdrawal according to the
13 diktats or principles of the Taif Accord or did he favour one of the
14 other models during that period of time?
15 A. Rafik Hariri was keen on the implementation of the Taif
16 Agreement. He was one of the architects of the Taif Agreement. This was
17 his position. He has never changed his position or stance. He has
18 always supported the Taif Agreement.
19 Q. And when you say that, it's the Taif Agreement model that I
20 described and that you suggested yesterday for the staged withdrawal of
21 Syria from Lebanon; am I correct about that?
22 A. A first stage of withdrawal up to the Beqaa with a certain
23 presence in the triangle in Mount Lebanon, followed by negotiations or
24 talks between the Lebanese government and the Lebanese-Syrian in order to
25 achieve a full withdrawal. This is what is clearly stipulated in the
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1 Taif Agreement.
2 MR. CAMERON: And if I could take the witness now to the next
3 document, which appears at positions 1 and 2 in the presentation queue, 1
4 in the Arabic and 2 in the English, and this is a document which already
5 bears the Exhibit P303 and was admitted into evidence on the 13th of
6 November through the evidence of PRH305. It is a press release dated the
7 19th of September, and there's an indication at the end of the document
8 that it was published in Al Mustaqbal Newspaper on the 20th of September,
9 2004. It bears the ERN D0004668 to 4669.
10 Q. Mr. Jumblatt, under the heading, the initial heading:
11 "Democratic Gathering Bloc to Approve Paper Today, National Meeting in
12 Bristol Hotel Tomorrow," the following text appears:
13 "After a closed meeting yesterday with the Prime Minister
14 Rafik Hariri, Progressive Socialist Party Chairman Walid Jumblatt
15 announced that he is 'in solidarity with the opposition. We either
16 participate in the government together or not.' He promised to announce
17 additional positions next Thursday. This comes one day after
18 Mount Lebanon witnessed an extensive opposition movement mobilized
19 against the revenge campaign that several towns and villages from
20 Choueifat to Chouf have been facing. It was as part of this opposition
21 movement that Jumblatt announced positions that represent a turning point
22 in Lebanese political life.
23 "It has been learned that the closed meeting between Hariri and
24 Jumblatt reviewed the situation in the light of the local, regional, and
25 international developments ..."
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1 Now, Mr. Jumblatt, there's a couple of things I would like to ask
2 you about. First, when you said that you were in solidarity with the
3 opposition, "we either participate in the government together or not,"
4 had there been a decision taken by that stage as to, in the political
5 stage or realm, what the opposition group was going to do?
6 A. Our objective was to enlarge the coalition and to gather the
7 biggest number of possible -- of Lebanese parties in order to voice our
8 opposition to the extension of Lahoud's term and also to express our
9 opposition to the practices perpetrated by the Lebanese-Syrian security
10 apparatus; namely, the arrest of members of the PSP and other practices
11 and actions. We were accusing the Syrian regime and the Lebanese-Syrian
12 security apparatus of perpetrating such acts. So we wanted to enlarge
13 the coalition with whoever joins our position.
14 Q. And if I could go to the following page of the document, which is
15 at ERN D0004669, the text reads at the outset of the page:
16 "He," and the context is clear that that's you, "confirmed that
17 he would 'continue to respect the constitution, the law and freedom and
18 work on straightening out Lebanese-Syrian relations,' noting that 'what
19 happened in Mount Lebanon confirms that a police state is being
20 installed,' he pointed out that 'any one of us could be threatened by the
21 secret police, by any type of secret police,' and that 'whoever violates
22 the constitution continues to do so, and whoever contradicts the people's
23 will keeps on doing so.'"
24 What was the incident that prompted this particular statement?
25 What had happened on Mount Lebanon during this period of time?
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1 A. If I remember well, one of our supporters was arrested - he was
2 the head of the municipality of Choueifat - based upon fabricated
3 allegations and accusations, if I remember well. Back then we accused
4 the Lebanese intelligence and the Lebanese-Syrian security apparatus.
5 Let me say it clearly: We did not make any difference between the
6 Lebanese security apparatus and the Lebanese-Syrian security apparatus.
7 When the Syrians entered Lebanon in 1976 and in 1977 officially, there
8 was no possibility to see any independence between both apparatuses --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction:
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So in 1976, 1977 there was a small
11 margin to have some difference between both apparatuses, but after the
12 Taif Agreement they totally merged together, they were following the
13 orders of the same president. And the Lebanese apparatus was a true copy
14 of the Syrian security apparatus.
15 MR. CAMERON:
16 Q. When you say they followed the orders of the same president,
17 which president are you referring to?
18 A. Lahoud, Bashar, we did not see any difference between both of
19 them. Our campaign was against the extension of the term of Lahoud who
20 represents the will of Bashar.
21 Q. And further on down the page under the heading "Sfeir," the text
22 reads:
23 "In a gesture of clear solidarity with Jumblatt,
24 Maronite Patriarch Nasrallah Boutros Sfeir - who is not far from the
25 issue himself - stated that 'What is good for man everywhere is to rise
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1 above grudges, revenge, and pettiness, and to try to spread peace around
2 himself, especially if he is in a position of power.'"
3 Were you having discussions during this period of time -- do you
4 recall specific discussions with either Patriarch Sfeir or his
5 representatives in your effort to build -- to enlarge the coalition?
6 A. Of course. We were constantly exchanging letters with
7 Patriarch Sfeir through some common friends, and as you know
8 Patriarch Sfeir was keen on calling for a full withdrawal of the Syrian
9 troops from Lebanon. We were exchanging our views and opinions via some
10 common friends, such as Samir Frangieh, late Nasib Lahoud, and many
11 others.
12 MR. CAMERON: If I could take the witness now to the document
13 that appears at position 23 in the English and 24 in the Arabic of the
14 Prosecution's presentation queue. It is a Press Review dated the 20th of
15 September, 2004, issued by the United Nations Information Centre. It has
16 the ERN range beginning D0411897 to 906. This was deemed admissible by
17 the Trial Chamber's decision of the 30th of December, 2014 --
18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay.
19 MR. CAMERON: And if I may have an exhibit number.
20 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: That will be P426.
21 JUDGE AKOUM: Mr. Cameron.
22 MR. CAMERON: Yes.
23 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Walid Beik, we felt that
24 Patriarch Sfeir went beyond your position and that of Prime Minister
25 Rafik Hariri. You were asking for a staged withdrawal, whereas he was
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1 asking for a full withdrawal. Was the Patriarch subject to similar
2 pressure, that is, the pressure that you have been experiencing, you and
3 Prime Minister Hariri? And if your answer is a no, could you please tell
4 us why?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. There were fierce
6 campaigns launched against the patriarch by those who were the allies of
7 the Syrian regime. I do not have now previous press releases, media
8 coverage, et cetera, but the patriarch was subject to media campaigns.
9 We know who are the mouthpieces of the Syrian regime; however, myself,
10 Prime Minister Hariri were calling for a staged withdrawal on two steps:
11 First of all to the Beqaa and then to Syria, whereas the patriarch was --
12 or was convinced that there should be a full withdrawal without any
13 condition.
14 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] In your statement you said that
15 President Assad attacked you in person and attacked Prime Minister Hariri
16 when he said, "I shall break Lebanon over your head and that of
17 Jumblatt." Were there similar threats against Patriarch Sfeir?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not as far as I know, not as far as
19 I know. There was something against me and against Prime Minister
20 Hariri, but nothing against the patriarch. I don't remember now whether
21 there were media campaigns by Bashar against the patriarch, I don't know.
22 But the Syrian mouthpieces were speaking all the time but I don't know
23 whether the same threats reached the patriarch.
24 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 MR. CAMERON: [Microphone not activated]
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1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 MR. CAMERON: Thank you. In Exhibit P426, if I could ask the
3 witness to be shown page 4 beginning with the ERN D0411900, please.
4 Q. Now, Mr. Jumblatt, there's a heading near the top of the page
5 which says: "Jumblatt Steps up Battle Against Regime to Point of No
6 Return." Under the subheading "Middle East Reporter," the following text
7 appears:
8 "Druze overlord and chief of the Progressive Socialist Party
9 Walid Jumblatt over the weekend stepped up the battle against the regime
10 'in defence of Lebanon's freedom' to a point of no return. In an
11 unprecedented harsh attack against the regime of President Emile Lahoud,
12 Jumblatt charged that Lebanon was transforming into a big prison where
13 authoritarian and one party rule is being installed, the local press,
14 including Beirut's An-Nahar Newspaper reported on Monday."
15 Now, is it so that the kind of things that you were publicly
16 giving voice to were very pointed during this period of time?
17 A. Of course, that has been always my position. When I refused the
18 extension I never changed and the escalation came afterwards. My
19 political positions were dependent on the extension and facing and
20 opposing the extension. This is part of what I said. I made a lot of
21 statements at the time against Syria and against Lahoud. This is not the
22 only statement I made.
23 Q. Okay. Notwithstanding the fact that you and the Prime Minister
24 shared the same vision or model for the withdrawal of Syrian troops
25 according to the Taif Accord, was there a distinction between the manner
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1 in which you communicated that to the public and the manner in which the
2 Prime Minister communicated? Was he as vocal as you in his direct
3 opposition?
4 A. Each one of us has his own political method. I have my own ways.
5 Prime Minister Hariri had his own method and ways. Perhaps
6 Prime Minister Hariri had a less-opposing way of saying things and
7 expressing things and I had my own ways and that is known historically.
8 But we both had the same political conviction, that it was high time for
9 Syria to withdraw from Lebanon pursuant to the Taif Agreement.
10 Q. Was there any conversation between you and the Prime Minister
11 during this period of time, where the Prime Minister said: Maybe we
12 shouldn't speak so publicly about this? Or did he think it was
13 appropriate, entirely appropriate, for you to speak in the manner in
14 which you did?
15 A. No one dictated his or her opinion to the other. That was my
16 opinion, I had my own opinion, and he respected that. None of us
17 dictated or opposed or objected to the other's opinion.
18 Q. So that Press Review was on the 20th of September, and a couple
19 of days later on the 22nd the first Bristol Group meeting is held.
20 MR. CAMERON: And if I could ask that the witness be shown or at
21 least summoned up the video that appears at position 91 of the
22 Prosecution's queue. And I'd like to go to some very brief excerpts.
23 This was previously entered as Exhibit P365. If we could start at timing
24 22.04, please.
25 [Video-clip played]
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1 MR. CAMERON: Stop that, please.
2 Q. Now, this is the banner that was prominently displayed during the
3 first Bristol Group meeting, do you recall?
4 A. Yes, of course, I recall. That was the general slogan of the
5 opposition that was opposed to the Syrian presence and the extension.
6 Yes, I do remember that very well: "In defence of freedoms and
7 protection of the Constitution," because we felt that the constitution
8 has been violated and freedoms were in danger.
9 MR. CAMERON: If we could go to 22.10, please.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MR. CAMERON:
12 Q. And here you are greeting many of the assembled participants in
13 the front row.
14 MR. CAMERON: Carry on, please.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 MR. CAMERON:
17 Q. And could you describe -- at this point if you could -- you
18 haven't aged a day, Mr. Jumblatt, if I may say. Who are you sitting
19 with? If we could just pause it there or go back just a touch, please.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. CAMERON: Stop it there, please.
22 Q. With whom are you sitting, Mr. Jumblatt?
23 A. Here in front of me I see Carlos Edde, he is the nephew of the
24 great leader Raymond Edde, and this is Toufiq El-Hindi. In the back row
25 we can see Mr. Hrawi. He is the Vice-President of the Progressive
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1 Socialist Party. He is in charge of external relations. As for the
2 others, perhaps they are journalists. I do not know them.
3 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Jumblatt, it's evident when we look at
4 it that some of the people there are dressed quite formally and some more
5 casually, including yourself. Was that just a matter of personal style
6 or was there some sort of message people were trying to deliver? Can you
7 comment on that?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a freedom of wearing
9 whatever you want. That has nothing to do with anything. All my life,
10 most of my life, I wear jeans and a leather jacket. Of course here at
11 the Tribunal I'm not going to wear this, I'm wearing formal attire.
12 MR. CAMERON: And if we can go to 25.34, please.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 MR. CAMERON: Just stop there, please.
15 Q. Now, at this -- this is a shot of Gebran Tueini. And can you
16 describe in brief terms what Gebran Tueini's position was in respect of
17 Syrian withdrawal, the Taif Accord, and Resolution 1559, if you know?
18 A. I remember that the late Gebran Tueini was one of the
19 spear-heads, one of the people who always called for Syrian withdrawal
20 and defended freedoms in Lebanon. Gebran Tueini is the son of
21 Ghassan Tueini and he is also the descendant of a very prestigious and
22 democratic institution in Lebanon, and that is An-Nahar Newspaper.
23 That's why it was normal for us to meet with Gebran Tueini and agree with
24 him and with any individual or party or group who agreed with us on the
25 need and the importance of the Syrian withdrawal from Lebanon pursuant to
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1 the Taif Agreement. I think at the time we did not discuss Taif per se,
2 but we had general discussions and -- if my memory serves me well.
3 MR. CAMERON: I'd like now to go to the document that appears at
4 positions 26 in the Arabic and 25 in the English of the Prosecution's
5 presentation queue. Like the last document -- sorry. This is a
6 Press Review dated the 23rd of September, 2004, it bears the ERN number
7 D0412131 to D0412139. It was similarly deemed admissible like the last
8 document, the Trial Chamber's decision of the 30th of December, F1802.
9 If I could have an exhibit number for this as well, please.
10 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: We will admit this as Exhibit P427.
11 MR. CAMERON: If I could ask the witness should be shown page 5
12 of the document which appears at ERN D0412135, please.
13 Q. In the middle of the page, Mr. Jumblatt, you'll see some fairly
14 vigorous language in the middle: "Bristol Rally Slams President Lahoud's
15 Mandate Extension as Illegitimate." Below that under "The Middle East
16 Reporter," we have:
17 "Opposition groupings from the four corners of Lebanon's
18 political spectrum have banded with Druze MP Walid Jumblatt in a
19 broad-based national front which is opposed to the amendment of the
20 constitution that led to the extension of President Lahoud's term for
21 three years, An-Nahar reported according to the Naharnet today. The
22 opposition move was announced at a tumultuous meeting in the
23 Bristol Hotel on Wednesday just as the regime was unleashing one
24 supporter after another to attack Jumblatt as a 'traitor' and a
25 'collaborator with Israel,' indicating that both sides of conflict have
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1 crossed the point of no return."
2 I want to ask two questions about this. The first is: There
3 were lots of press at the first Bristol Group meeting. During the actual
4 meeting itself, were the press permitted to remain, do you remember?
5 A. I think that we allowed journalists to take pictures, but later
6 on during the discussions, no, not as far as I know. As far as I know
7 there were no journalists, at least not officially. Perhaps some of the
8 attendants did leak information, maybe, but the journalists' job was only
9 to take pictures and then we make the declaration or the statement that
10 we all agree upon.
11 Q. And was this the first meeting of its nature, bringing together
12 all these groups?
13 A. The Bristol was a headline and I think that there were three
14 Bristol meetings, but there were also meetings at my residence in Beirut
15 with groups from the opposition who had the same opinions, who objected
16 to the forced extension of Lahoud's term, and who called for a Syrian
17 withdrawal from Lebanon. Yes, there were a number of meetings. We are
18 talking about months and months of meetings that followed the forced
19 extension until that doom day, the day of the assassination of
20 Prime Minister Hariri. And on that day also we met in the evening and we
21 made a statement, an important statement, to face and oppose the Syrian
22 president and the Syrian regime.
23 Q. When you say that the Bristol Groups were a headline, do you mean
24 by that that this was sort of the public representation of all the work
25 that had gone on behind the scenes leading up to that moment? Is that a
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1 fair description of what you're talking about?
2 A. Let's say that the Bristol was a meeting place for everyone,
3 geographically and non-geographically. This is a meeting-place where
4 everyone came to meet. I did not call everyone to come and meet at my
5 place. Perhaps some of them had some sensitivities, allergies to that.
6 This is why we chose this neutral place, a hotel in Beirut, and this is
7 why we met at the Bristol.
8 Q. But this was intended, if you use the term "headline," it was
9 intended to be a public affirmation of the work that you had been engaged
10 in with the various parties; is that correct?
11 A. We were constantly discussing -- during the Bristol meetings we
12 were discussing the Working Plans and how to expand the confrontation,
13 the popular and political confrontation to face the forced extension of
14 President Lahoud. This was the political atmosphere at the time. We
15 were trying to expand the opposition to confront this forced extension.
16 That was part of our daily and weekly political action. Whenever we met,
17 we met in order to come up with conclusions or we met at the Bristol to
18 discuss, to simply discuss among ourselves what we were going to do.
19 Q. I'll ask and then move on. Was the -- were the meetings at the
20 Bristol Hotel something that was intended for public consumption, to be a
21 public statement of the work that you were doing with the others? I know
22 that you had other meetings, but in this occasion everybody came together
23 according to the article. Was that a statement that you intended to
24 be -- a message that you intended to be broadcast to the public?
25 A. Of course it was a public message, stating that the opposition is
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1 holding a meeting at the Bristol in order to discuss the various
2 developments that followed the extension of Lahoud's term. Yes, of
3 course, it was a meeting of a public character, and every one of our
4 meetings was followed by a statement and our statements were very clear.
5 Q. And is this a fair description of the general nature of the
6 meeting, the first meeting, "opposition groupings from the four corners
7 of Lebanese political spectrum have banded together with Druze MP Walid
8 Jumblatt in a broad-based national front," is that a fair description of
9 your understanding of the membership of the Bristol Gathering?
10 A. I am Lebanese before being a Druze. I was born as a Druze but I
11 am a Lebanese. I belong to this broad-based Lebanese coalition that was
12 opposed to the Syrian presence and to the extension of the term that was
13 imposed on us.
14 Q. The remaining sentences in this first paragraph and on to the
15 second and third paragraph are on a different issue. The remaining
16 sentence in the first paragraph:
17 " ... Wednesday just as the regime was unleashing one supporter
18 after another to attack Jumblatt as a 'traitor' and as a 'collaborator
19 with Israel,' indicating that both sides of conflict have crossed the
20 point of no return."
21 The second paragraph reads:
22 "Another group of forces was scheduled to meet today, Thursday,
23 to express support for Lahoud's extended term to denounce Jumblatt's
24 position as 'subversive and treacherous,' An-Nahar's cartoonist compared
25 the present situation to the early 1950s when Jumblatt's father,
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1 Kamal Jumblatt in co-operation with the late Christian leader
2 Camille Chamoun forced then President Bichara Khoury to step down after
3 he was re-elected.
4 "The meeting of the Bristol Hotel brought together all opponents
5 of Lahoud's extended term from all sects and factions under the slogan
6 recovering the republic and the democratic system from the security state
7 and correcting the Lebanese-Syrian relations on the grounds of
8 implementing the Taif peace agreement which ended the 15-year long civil
9 strife."
10 Now, were you surprised -- first of all, were the allegations
11 that you were a traitor, a collaborator with Israel, subversive, and
12 treacherous, was that the kind of allegation that was being levelled at
13 you in public during this period of time?
14 A. Of course in public through MPs and parties that were allied --
15 aligned with Syria. In all cases these were their ethics, the ethics of
16 the Syrian regime and those that are following that regime. This was
17 done in public. It was not a secret to anyone. In this context there is
18 a wrong comparison. It is impossible to compare the political dialogue
19 and opposition between Chamoun, Kamal Jumblatt, and Bichara Khoury, this
20 was within the context of democracy and freedom and it is absolutely
21 wrong to establish a comparison between Camille Chamoun, Bichara Khoury,
22 or anyone else in Lebanon to compare these people or to assimilate them
23 to Bashar Assad. This is an insult to the Lebanese people. Please take
24 this into account.
25 Q. Were you surprised that this kind of language was used against
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1 you in public by people associated with the Syrian regime, as you've
2 said? Did it surprise you?
3 A. No, not at all. This is a concrete reflection of what
4 Rustom Ghazaleh said to me on the 25th of August, when he asked me, "Are
5 you with us or against us?" This is a reflection of their position that
6 I was against them. So if you are against us, this means in concrete
7 terms that you are a collaborator with Israel, a traitor, et cetera.
8 This is the term they used to say in order to describe me and this
9 reflects their ethics.
10 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] When it came to describing you as
11 a traitor, did Prime Minister Hariri tell you that he was also asked
12 whether he was with Syria or against Syria?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Prime Minister Hariri was
14 threatened directly in person when he met Bashar on the 26th of August.
15 It was a direct threat. I mentioned this yesterday. It was true that he
16 went and approved the amendment of the constitution and the extension of
17 the term, but not of his own free will. He did so based on my advice and
18 also in the light of the threat, the threat was a reason that was valid
19 enough for him to compel him to approve the amendment.
20 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] When he was told, "You are either
21 with us or against us," does this lead you to the same conclusion that
22 when he changed his position, does this mean in their own minds that he
23 is a traitor?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They did not consider him a
25 traitor, we did not hear them describing him as a traitor, but they made
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1 false accusations against him and they also accused him of being the
2 mastermind of Resolution 1559. He was compelled to approve the amendment
3 based on my own advice. I was keen on protecting him physically and
4 politically, most importantly I wanted to protect him physically from any
5 physical harm.
6 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] What was a greater source of
7 anger, was it his change in position and rejection of the extension or
8 putting Lebanon back on the international arena through the adoption of
9 Resolution 1559?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Neither Hariri nor myself have
11 anything to do with Resolution 1559, but in the light of totalitarian
12 dictatorship it is out of question to discuss anything, even expressing
13 one's opinion is impossible. When Hariri went to Damascus - and we heard
14 yesterday through the audiotape the discussion he had with
15 Rustom Ghazaleh, he said to Rustom Ghazaleh, "We will see tomorrow. I
16 will discuss this with the president tomorrow," but when he went to
17 Damascus he was not even allowed to sit on a chair and he clearly told
18 him, "If Chirac wants me out of Lebanon, I will break Lebanon over your
19 heads. And my message to Walid Jumblatt is that: You have your own
20 Druze supporters and I have my own Druze supporters, so you will see what
21 we can do." This is what he said to him.
22 MR. CAMERON: I've finished with that document. Is this a
23 convenient time for you to break for the morning?
24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Yes. We'll take a short break.
25 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
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1 --- On resuming at 11.43 a.m.
2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, I understand there's some
3 slight technical issue with a numbering of exhibits that you've shown to
4 Mr. Jumblatt. It's probably better if we deal with it now and just
5 allocate separate exhibit numbers to those two. So if you could just
6 read on to the record the two you wish to have separate exhibit numbers
7 for and I'll do that now.
8 MR. CAMERON: The one that was shown to the witness originally is
9 a Press Release dated the 19th of September, 2004, with an ERN number
10 D0004668 to 4669. It was a part of Exhibit P303 and I understand the
11 next exhibit number is Exhibit 428.
12 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: That document will be received as
13 Exhibit 428. And the next one, there's one more, that will be
14 Exhibit 429. If you can read just on the identifying -- there was only
15 one?
16 MR. CAMERON: Only one that we haven't covered. There will be
17 more as we go along and perhaps we could address them in turn.
18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: The next one will be 429 then.
19 Please continue.
20 MR. CAMERON: Thank you.
21 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Judge Akoum just has pointed out to me that
22 Mr. Courcelle-Labrousse has arrived in place of Mr. Hassan. Good morning
23 to you, Mr. Courcelle-Labrousse.
24 MR. COURCELLE-LABROUSSE: [Interpretation] Good morning,
25 Your Honours.
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1 MR. CAMERON: The next document that I would like to show the
2 witness appears in the presentation queue of the Prosecution at 78 in the
3 Arabic and 79 in the English translation. This formed part of the
4 Prosecution's motion to amend the Rule 91 list, which was granted by the
5 Trial Chamber's decision of the 13th of April, 2015, under the number
6 F1901. It is an article from An-Nahar Newspaper dated the 23rd of
7 September, 2004, the ERN range is 6031011 -- sorry, 60301199 to 60301208.
8 If that could be Exhibit, now, 429.
9 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: That will be Exhibit P429.
10 MR. CAMERON: And if I could ask the witness to be shown the
11 latter part of the first page, which is 60301199, please.
12 Q. Mr. Jumblatt, this document has a number of renditions of various
13 speeches that were made during the course of the first Bristol Group
14 gathering, and I'd like to take you to its rendition of your remarks, if
15 I may. In the third-from-last paragraph of that first page the following
16 text appears:
17 "In content, Jumblatt took no more than five minutes to say what
18 he had. In a few expressive words, he stated that 'if any one of us
19 leaves this Lebanese-Arab democratic and diverse consensus, he/she will
20 end; and if Walid Jumblatt leaves this consensus, he will also end.'"
21 Do you recall saying those words at the Bristol Gathering, the
22 first Bristol Gathering, sir?
23 A. I do not remember. This is my style, this is the way I address
24 people when I'm talking in -- to politics; however, what I wanted to say
25 is we as an opposition, we will always stay together, but unfortunately I
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1 cannot remember all the statements I've made in the past ten years.
2 Q. What was the general message that you wanted to get across in the
3 short time that you took at the first Bristol Group meeting, what was the
4 thrust of it?
5 A. What I meant is that the people who will abandon the opposition
6 will face the end of his political career and would have betrayed all the
7 legitimate requests to end the Syrian presence and to end the role of the
8 security apparatus. This is how I explain what I said back then.
9 Q. And do you recall whether your remarks were well received by
10 those who were gathered?
11 A. I do not remember.
12 Q. I'd like to take you to just one further page very briefly at
13 60301207, which has the heading: "Absence." Do you see that, sir?
14 Under the heading "Absence," it says:
15 "President Amin Gemayel was absent from the gathering due to
16 surgery, as well as MPs Nasib Lahoud was abroad and Boutros Harb ..."
17 The reason I draw that to your attention, do you have a
18 recollection that President Gemayel was not at the first Bristol Group
19 meeting?
20 A. No, he did not attend the first Bristol Group meeting. He
21 attended the third Bristol Group meeting. He did not attend the first
22 one. He attended the second Bristol Group meeting on the 13th of
23 October, 2004, if I remember well, but for sure he did not attend the
24 first one.
25 Q. I think we'll come to that. And just for clarification, you said
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1 the 13th of October. Does it accord with your recollection that the
2 second Bristol Group meeting was actually the 13th of December, 2004?
3 A. The third Bristol meeting took place on the 29th of January,
4 2005. I have a note in my documents that says the 13th of October, 2004.
5 I don't remember if this coincides with the second Bristol Group
6 meeting -- 13 December.
7 Q. We'll come to it in a moment. The next document I'd like to
8 refer you to appears at positions 27 in the English and 28 in the Arabic.
9 It is a Press Review from the United Nations Information Centre, the 24th
10 of September, 2004, with an ERN range beginning at D0412207 to D0412215.
11 And it was deemed admissible by the Trial Chamber in its decision of the
12 30th of December, number F1802.
13 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Next exhibit number is P430 and we will
14 admit it with that number.
15 MR. CAMERON: If Mr. Jumblatt could be shown page 5 of the
16 document at ERN D0412211, please.
17 Q. The heading appears: "Jumblatt Stresses that there will be no
18 Co-existence with Lahoud's Regime."
19 And the text below that from the Middle East Reporter says the
20 following:
21 "Despite an obvious bid by supporters of President Emile Lahoud's
22 extended term to tone down language in an effort to ease tensions with
23 the opposition, Druze overlord and staunch opponent to Lahoud's new half
24 term Walid Jumblatt was adamant and firm in his stance as he affirmed
25 that there will be no co-existence with Lahoud's regime, Beirut's leading
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1 An-Nahar noted Friday. Speaking at a political talk show on LBCI
2 television Thursday night, Jumblatt said: 'After all that has been said,
3 I will not participate in the new government regardless of circumstances
4 and changes in the policies of the regime.' He revealed that Hezbollah's
5 Secretary-General Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah and Prime Minister Rafik Hariri
6 have been pleading with him to tone down his language and avoid further
7 escalation and confrontation with Lahoud's followers and supporters,
8 An-Nahar and Al-Hayat reported. 'They contacted me several times as if
9 they feared I was about to declare a manifesto against Syria,' Jumblatt
10 said."
11 Now, just stopping there. When you said that you were adamant
12 that you would not participate in the new government, regardless of
13 circumstances, at this point the Prime Minister had not yet
14 resigned - that was perhaps a month away or so. What did you mean by
15 "the new government," Mr. Jumblatt, when you referred to it in that term?
16 A. I meant that in political terms I will not accept any settlement
17 with Lahoud, any settlement whatsoever with Lahoud who represents
18 Bashar Assad in Lebanon. Of course the government hadn't resigned yet,
19 but I was warning and I was sending a message of escalation that is a
20 reflection of my position, that I was not considering any kind of
21 compromise or settlement with Lahoud and of course no settlement with
22 Bashar.
23 Q. And do you recall after having had this read to you that by the
24 third week in September, around the 24th, there had come a period where
25 both the Prime Minister and Secretary-General Nasrallah had had
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1 discussions with you about the nature of your public statements?
2 A. No one discussed with me my statements. My position was crystal
3 clear and everybody knows what kind of rhetorics I used, what is my style
4 in politics. And even if they were to discuss this with me, I wouldn't
5 have changed my position.
6 Q. And do you remember discussing with Secretary-General Nasrallah
7 your position about Syrian withdrawal and the Taif Accord during this
8 period of time; that is, shortly after the extension of President Lahoud?
9 A. From what I remember, I don't think that I met the Hezbollah
10 Secretary-General, Mr. Hassan Nasrallah, during that period of time.
11 Q. So is this one of those occasions when the report from the
12 Middle East Reporter is in error?
13 A. I was very clear in my answer. If I remember well, I did not
14 meet Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah. Maybe my memory is failing me now or maybe
15 the Middle East Reporter is in error, as you said.
16 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Jumblatt and Mr. Cameron, it says in the
17 article Mr. Nasrallah and Mr. Hariri have been pleading with him,
18 Mr. Jumblatt, to tone down his language.
19 That doesn't mean you have to have had a personal meeting with
20 either, does it?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I reiterate and I repeat, I do not
22 remember and I don't think that I met Hezbollah Secretary-General
23 Hassan Nasrallah during that critical period of our history, around 2004.
24 And I don't remember that they sent me a message in this context. This
25 is my style of rhetorics when I'm issuing political statements,
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1 regardless of the position of Hassan Nasrallah or Rafik Hariri.
2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I'm a little unclear what you mean by "the
3 rhetorics when I'm issuing political statements." Does that mean the
4 truth can be elastic?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not at all. I make political
6 statements. I have a harsh style. Sometimes I may be a little bit dry
7 in my style. My style never changed, especially when I made up my mind,
8 and I did make up my mind to confront the Syrian regime and the
9 representative of the Syrian regime in Lebanon, Emile Lahoud, and that
10 was my style.
11 MR. CAMERON:
12 Q. Shortly after this time-period comes the attempted assassination
13 of Mr. Marwan Hamade. And he was somebody, I take it, who was very close
14 to you, a political ally and a friend; is that fair to say?
15 A. My relationship with Marwan has been ongoing for more than 45
16 years. He's a friend and an ally, a friend of the family, a friend of
17 Kamal Jumblatt, a friend of my mother, and a friend in politics. On that
18 day, on the 1st of October, I was in Mokhtara. I received a call from
19 someone from inside the house, from the operator, and they told me that
20 it seems that Marwan was in a car bomb but he is doing well. Of course I
21 ran quickly to Beirut. I took the car and rushed to Beirut with my
22 body-guard, rest in peace, Salman Sayyour [phoen], and before I arrived
23 to Beirut I received a call from Rafik Hariri. He was in Paris and he
24 told me that there had -- there was an armoured vehicle waiting for me at
25 the entrance of the hospital. Also I was contacted by General Hikmat
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1 Chehabi, he was in Paris and he told me, "Be careful."
2 I arrived to hospital and there was a large crowd of supporters.
3 They were angry and they were pointing fingers at Syria directly. My
4 first concern was to check on Marwan. They told me that he was in the
5 emergency room. I went there -- I went to the intensive care unit and he
6 was in bed. Of course, he was covered with blood. His face was covered
7 with blood and with shrapnel. He had cuts and wounds everywhere. I
8 asked the doctors, including Dr. Ghattas Khoury, Dr. Samir Atweh,
9 Dr. Samir Alam. They told me thank God, thank God Marwan will be fine.
10 He is fine but of course he was in a very critical condition, but thank
11 God that he survived.
12 I stayed for a little while and then I went down to the entrance
13 of the hospital because the crowd -- the crowd of supporters, there were
14 hundreds and thousands. They were puzzled and surprised and angry. They
15 wanted to know what had happened to Marwan. And here allow me to digress
16 a little bit. The crowd remembered, they remembered at the time the
17 assassination of Kamal Jumblatt at the same moment. The Lebanese people
18 did not forget and will never forget. The Lebanese people have an
19 ongoing and a strong memory. Even if politics imposed on me in 1977 to
20 make a compromise with the Syrian regime, but our supporters knew that
21 there were times of need when we needed to do things. But at that moment
22 they remembered again Kamal Jumblatt.
23 So I went out and told them that Marwan will be fine, he was
24 fine, and it was a very difficult moment because some of them did not
25 even believe me. I went out and reiterated and repeated, "Marwan is
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1 fine. Thank God, Marwan is fine." To journalists I also said, "Marwan
2 is fine," in order to appease the tension in the street. I was keen on
3 safe-guarding security. I also was keen on the crowd not entering the
4 hospital. At that moment perhaps they could be entered the hospital.
5 Then we received news that the vice Syrian President Abdel-Halim
6 Khaddam was heading to Beirut to check on Marwan.
7 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Jumblatt, I think Mr. Cameron wants to
8 take it in smaller pieces so that we can digest each relevant piece of
9 the picture here.
10 Mr. Cameron.
11 MR. CAMERON: Thank you.
12 Q. You mentioned, Mr. Jumblatt, that you had received a call from
13 General Hikmat Chehabi who said that you should be careful. You've
14 mentioned that you had a special kind of relationship with that Syrian
15 official and you had known him for some time. What did you make of his
16 telephone call to you?
17 A. He told me in very simple terms and words and accurate words he
18 said, "Be careful, Walid. Walid, be careful." And that's enough. With
19 these words I can conclude that there is an imminent danger that could
20 target me as well. He said, "Walid, be careful."
21 Q. Had he ever used such language with you in the past or since?
22 A. No, no, not at all. That was the first time that Hikmat Chehabi
23 warns me of the danger and says, "Be careful, Walid."
24 Q. And we've just seen a couple of examples where your language is
25 pointed and very direct about your position. Would you characterize
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1 Marwan Hamade's language in public during this period of time as similar
2 to yours or more soft-spoken or more vigorous? How would you compare
3 your language and how you spoke with Mr. Hamade's?
4 A. The same positions, approximately the same positions and the same
5 language, Marwan and I, there's no difference -- perhaps some difference
6 in some terminology used, but we have the same positions.
7 Q. And did there come a point when you discussed the attempted
8 assassination with the Prime Minister in more depth than just hearing of
9 it?
10 A. Which attempted assassination, Marwan Hamade's attempted
11 assassination?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Later on, later on I was describing what had happened to me on
14 that day, and if you would allow me I would like to continue the story,
15 and then we get to the part about the discussion with Prime Minister
16 Hariri because he was not in Lebanon at that time. So may I continue my
17 story on that day, on that doom day?
18 Q. Okay. You had reached the point, as I understand it, where you
19 had learned that Vice-President Khaddam -- you see it comes to us all,
20 Mr. Jumblatt.
21 You had reached the point in your story where you had understood
22 that Vice-President Khaddam was on his way to the hospital; is that
23 correct?
24 A. That's correct. And at that time and in front of this angry
25 crowd, angry against Syria, I was in -- I was confused. How will I
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1 protect Khaddam when he arrives? How will I prevent Khaddam from being
2 hurt when he arrives to hospital? Because at the time it was not
3 possible to explain to the Lebanese crowd, to the supporters, that
4 Khaddam was coming to check on Marwan. Well, finally he arrived and my
5 body-guards and I, we protected him, we protected him and helped him to
6 enter the hospital. He entered inside the hospital and there were cries,
7 people insulting Syria and saying bad things about Syria and that was
8 quite normal. That was imposed by the circumstances at the time.
9 We entered to the hospital. There is a reception area inside the
10 hospital. Khaddam sat there and I sat with him. We had with us some
11 doctors, including Ghattas Khoury, and a number of people sat with us.
12 Khaddam checked on Marwan. He asked me and the doctors about Marwan's
13 health and we told him, "Thank God Marwan is doing well."
14 And then he told a story. He told a story and said that the same
15 thing had happened to him. Khaddam said, "In the past they also tried to
16 kill me." Rifaat Al-Assad, that's the brother of Hafez Al-Assad, tried
17 to kill me, and he put a car bomb along the route to my road where I
18 live. Khaddam lives between Damascus and between a summer residence that
19 is called Bloudan. And he accused Rifaat.
20 And from that story I conclude, as a politician, when he
21 mentioned in front of us, not only in front of me personally, in front of
22 everyone, more than 30, 40 people, when he mentioned that they also tried
23 to kill him and pointed at Rifaat Al-Assad and mentioned him namely, I
24 think that indirectly he was pointing at the Syrian regime. He couldn't
25 because he was still officially the vice-president, he couldn't accuse
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1 the regime in itself, that was impossible, but indirectly on the side he
2 was conveying a message to us that the attempted assassination that
3 targeted Marwan was coming from Syria and Bashar's regime. This is my
4 political conclusion.
5 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, I have to intervene here, and
6 yes it will remain a political conclusion of yours, Mr. Jumblatt,
7 because, as the parties appreciate, this Chamber is not -- no one is
8 charged with having attempted to murder Mr. Hamade or those who died in
9 that car bombing on the 1st of October, 2004. No one is charged before
10 this Chamber and we are not inquiring into it, and we can draw no
11 conclusions at all as to who was responsible. And the highest the
12 evidence can be taken from Mr. Jumblatt is that's his opinion based on
13 what someone told him. But the Chamber has to disregard that for the
14 purposes of the trial of the five accused on trial here.
15 Mr. Cameron.
16 MR. CAMERON:
17 Q. May I ask, going back to my question, when you had -- when you
18 were able to have discussions with the Prime Minister about what had
19 happened to Mr. Hamade, how did the Prime Minister view the act of
20 attempting to assassinate Marwan Hamade?
21 A. Prime Minister Hariri at the time and after he returned to
22 Lebanon and checked on Marwan, Marwan later on had to be operated on and
23 it was a very critical operation, but it was something essential, a very
24 important surgery that he had to undergo. Prime Minister Hariri sent a
25 special doctor from Paris to Lebanon, but I think that the Lebanese
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1 doctors also did their job very well. Anyway, Prime Minister Hariri told
2 me with good intentions and with innocence, if I may say, he said, "They
3 will not do anything against anyone else in Lebanon. I have spoken to
4 Chirac and Chirac sent a message, a very firm and harsh message to
5 Bashar Al-Assad." This is what Prime Minister Hariri told me. Of course
6 he didn't know the nature of that regime. He thought that through his
7 international connections and his friendship with Chirac that a message
8 addressed from Chirac to Assad would stop Assad from committing
9 assassinations, assassination or assassinations.
10 Rafik Hariri, as I said, sometimes -- not sometimes, most of the
11 time he had a good heart and maybe sometimes he was a little bit too
12 innocent and naive, and he thought that Chirac's message would be enough,
13 but it wasn't enough. And on one day - and forgive me if I'm adding
14 here - one day I hope that the accused, the person in charge of the
15 assassination of Marwan Hamade, will appear before this Court.
16 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Has that entirely answered the question you
17 asked, which was, Mr. Cameron: How did the Prime Minister, Hariri, view
18 the act of attempting to assassinate Marwan Hamade? Have you got
19 everything you need from Mr. Jumblatt on that particular point?
20 MR. CAMERON: [Microphone not activated]
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron just said "not quite."
23 But, Mr. Jumblatt, the reason I've asked the Prosecutor is
24 whether he needs to just ask you something more specific from what you've
25 just said.
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1 Mr. Cameron.
2 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] What was your reaction when you
3 received the answer from Prime Minister Hariri? Did you remain silent?
4 Did you have a reaction when he told you that he had contacts with
5 Chirac?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told him that this was not
7 enough. I told him Abu Baha, Your Excellency, this is not enough. I
8 know them better than you. I know them better than you and this is not
9 enough. Don't be reassured. Be careful. And up until the last minute,
10 until the last minute, until the last evening, before we parted ways, on
11 the 13th of February, 2005, before his assassination, on the following
12 day, I kept telling him, "Be careful." I did not believe it. I did not
13 believe the message -- I did not believe that this message could stop
14 Bashar Al-Assad from committing assassinations.
15 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Following from that and in your
16 analysis when you say that the case of Marwan Hamade was not the end of
17 an era, was the beginning of an era, what do you mean by that?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The message was clear from Bashar.
19 After we recall what Bashar said and had said to Rafik Hariri, "If Chirac
20 wants to get me out of Lebanon, I will destroy Lebanon," yes, through the
21 attempted assassination on Marwan Hamade, that was the beginning of the
22 message of the confrontation, the political and physical confrontation.
23 It was the interpretation of the threat made by Bashar Al-Assad to
24 Rafik Hariri. It was interpreted through the attempted assassination on
25 Marwan Hamade on the 1st of October, 2004. That was the first bloody
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1 message, a very clear message, that: We know what we will do to you.
2 That was the first message by the Syrian regime and it was crystal clear.
3 Yesterday, Mr. Cameron mentioned the confrontation. This was the
4 confrontation. With them, there's no joking. They -- all they know are
5 killings and blood and assassinations.
6 JUDGE BRAIDY: Mr. Cameron.
7 MR. CAMERON:
8 Q. You had a very clear idea of the fact that this was a message.
9 My question is: How did the Prime Minister know -- you described what he
10 did. But how did the Prime Minister interpret what had happened through
11 the act of the attempted assassination of Mr. Hamade?
12 A. The same thing, same thing. That was a two-fold message to
13 Rafik Hariri and Walid Jumblatt. It's the same thing, but he thought, he
14 thought, unfortunately and wrongly, he thought that a simple word, a
15 simple harsh message from the French president to the Syrian president
16 would prevent Bashar Al-Assad from committing further assassinations.
17 Same thing. We had the same impressions, but I told him, "Be careful, be
18 careful, because this is not enough, a message is not enough."
19 Q. Do you remember whether the Prime Minister told you he had asked
20 Jacques Chirac to deliver that message to Bashar Al-Assad or he had
21 confirmed that in fact he understood that the message had been delivered?
22 Was it a request by the Prime Minister or did you understand from your
23 discussions with him that that request had been acted on and the message
24 had actually been delivered?
25 A. Rafik Hariri did not ask Jacques Chirac to do so. Jacques Chirac
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1 volunteered and sent an envoy, I think. I think it was the diplomatic
2 adviser, maybe, Jean-David Levitte, I think he sent him to Damascus, but
3 Rafik Hariri did not ask Jacques Chirac to do so. Jacques Chirac told
4 Rafik Hariri, "I did send a warning message to Bashar Al-Assad."
5 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I need a clarification. What was your
6 understanding of the nature of the relationship at the time between
7 President Chirac and President Assad, that's in 2004, around that time?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] France and the other major powers
9 were the architects of Resolution 1559 and that resolution called for the
10 full withdrawal of the Syrian troops from Lebanon without any condition
11 in addition to the disarming of the Lebanese militias and non-Lebanese
12 militias. I personally and Prime Minister Rafik Hariri had a different
13 position. We were calling for the implementation of the Taif Agreement.
14 So our position, our stance, was different from that of President Chirac.
15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Let me just go back. I'm just asking you
16 what your understanding of the nature of the relationship between
17 President Assad and President Chirac was at the time? You told me a few
18 moments ago that you make fairly direct political statements, so I wonder
19 if you could give me a fairly direct answer to it.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the extension of the
21 presidential term, the relationship between President Chirac and the
22 Syrian president was not a good one. That's all I have to say.
23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And before?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before, a very long time ago, it
25 was a reasonable relation between the Syrian regime and France. The
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1 architect of such a good relation was Rafik Hariri. Jacques Chirac paid
2 two visits to Lebanon and addressed the Parliament, and he said that the
3 Syrian presence in Lebanon is a necessity for the time being. So prior
4 to the extension, the relationship was good; but it turned into a very
5 bad one after the extension of the presidential term, and we can also
6 even say that it was severed.
7 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you.
8 And do we have a date for when President Chirac addressed the
9 Lebanese Parliament? It's not important at the moment, but if we could
10 get one at some point, it would assist.
11 MR. CAMERON: Yes, of course.
12 Q. Continuing on, if I could ask that the witness be shown the
13 document that appears at positions 69 in the English and 70 in the
14 Arabic, Prosecution's presentation queue. It's a Press Review issued by
15 the United Nations Information Centre dated the 4th of October, 2004. It
16 begins at ERN number D0410600 to 613. It was deemed admissible by the
17 Trial Chamber pursuant to their decision of the 30th of December, 2014.
18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: We will receive that as Exhibit P431.
19 MR. CAMERON: And if the witness could be shown page 9 of that
20 document which is at ERN number D0410608, please.
21 Q. Midway down the page, there's a heading that reflects: "Jumblatt
22 Insists on Ousting Lahoud Despite Attempted Assassination." And the text
23 reads:
24 "In his first public address following outgoing Minister Marwan
25 Hamade's attempted assassination Friday, Druze leader Walid Jumblatt
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1 reasserted Saturday his demand that President Lahoud's term be abrogated
2 within the framework of a 'healthy relationship with Syria purified from
3 the manipulations of local mercenaries.' 'The extension mistake must be
4 corrected in order to cope with the internalization and its fallout,'
5 Jumblatt said in a speech Saturday, An-Nahar reported Sunday. The
6 internalization Jumblatt spoke of was an allusion to the brewing
7 confrontation of the UN Security Council with Lebanon and Syria over
8 Lahoud's Syrian-directed extension in defiance of Resolution 1559, which
9 also called for a total Syrian military pullout from Lebanon. Jumblatt
10 called in a speech during the funeral of one of Hamade's body-guards, a
11 speech at Mazraat El-Chouf for a 'clear, correct and healthy relationship
12 with Syria.'"
13 Now, had you in the past given voice to the position in public
14 that you wanted the current extension -- then-current extension of
15 President Lahoud's term abrogated?
16 A. I have to correct my previous answer. Jacques Chirac came to
17 Lebanon during the regime of President Hafez Al-Assad, not
18 Bashar Al-Assad.
19 Regarding Lahoud, regarding Lahoud, of course we used all kinds
20 of qualifications, descriptions, adjectives in order to say that the
21 extension of President Lahoud's term is illegitimate, is not
22 constitutional, it was dictated by foreign power, by a foreign country;
23 that is, Syria. This is one of the positions that I expressed in my
24 statement.
25 Q. But prior to this speech, do you recall whether you had
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1 specifically asked for the president's term, as extended, to be
2 abrogated; or had that been your position all along?
3 A. My position remained unchanged. However, how can we abrogate a
4 renewed mandate or term after he has been elected by the MPs? That was a
5 constitutional problem. We needed to challenge this based on some legal
6 articles, case law, et cetera. This was a position I expressed in a
7 political statement. I meant to say that the extension of his term is
8 not constitutional and we needed to abrogate him in any possible way.
9 Q. And the root to that abrogation, as I understand your
10 description, was through the Lebanese Parliament in some form or another;
11 is that correct?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. When you refer to the purification of the relationship with Syria
14 from the manipulation of local mercenaries, what did you mean when you
15 used the term "local mercenaries"?
16 A. Syria's men, supporters, intelligence, parties, individuals; for
17 instance, those who described me as being a collaborator and an Israeli
18 traitor. This is the type of people who implement the orders they
19 receive. There is a term we used in Lebanon and that is difficult to
20 translate into English, thugs, mercenaries. This is how I understand it.
21 Q. If I could turn to the next document that I would like to show
22 the witness which appears at 29 in the English and 30 in the Arabic in
23 the Prosecution's presentation queue. It is United Nations Information
24 Centre Press Review dated the 11th of October, 2004. It has an ERN range
25 of D0411215 to 225. It was --
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1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Same?
2 MR. CAMERON: Yes, the same.
3 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: That will be Exhibit P432.
4 MR. CAMERON: And if I could ask the clerk to display page
5 beginning D0411220, which is page 6, and in a moment over to page 7.
6 Q. You can see the -- you spoke a moment ago about those who were
7 attacking you, and we see a heading: "Nasser Kandil Assails Jumblatt,"
8 near the bottom of the page, and the text states:
9 "Still, the opposition came under heavy attack on Sunday.
10 MP Nasser Kandil assailed those who opposed the constitutional amendment
11 that extended the term of Lahoud by three years. He said that the 29
12 members who opposed the amendment of belonging to the 'list of shame.'
13 Kandil was speaking at a rally that was organized by the Baath party in
14 the region of Akkar, in north Lebanon, An-Nahar and others reported. He
15 said that there are two political divisions now in the country: 'Those
16 who support the nationalistic option endorsed by Syria and those who back
17 Resolution 1559.' Kandil went on to accuse the opposition of
18 misrepresenting the true public opinion of the country. Kandil made a
19 fierce attack against Walid Jumblatt while defending passionately Syria's
20 involvement in Lebanon. He indirectly accused Jumblatt of collaborating
21 with the Israelis during their invasion of Lebanon in 1982."
22 So there's a couple of questions that I wanted to ask you about
23 that. First of all, were you familiar with Nasser Kandil?
24 A. Of course I know Nasser Kandil and other illuminated - if we can
25 say - Lebanese personalities because Kandil --
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1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Kandil is a lamp in
2 Arabic.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So these are the terms that were
4 used by the Syrian regime, the supporters of the Syrian regime. I know
5 all the terms that they use, starting with accusing people of being
6 traitors, collaborators, and others.
7 MR. CAMERON:
8 Q. Was Mr. Kandil, to your knowledge, a member of the parliamentary
9 bloc of Rafik Hariri?
10 A. Kandil a member of the bloc? No, no, no, not that I know of.
11 Q. Was this the kind of rhetoric that was levelled against you
12 during this period of time?
13 A. Yes, of course. This was the type of rhetoric they were using.
14 As I said earlier, they did not know any medium solution or you had to be
15 either their ally, attached to them, or a traitor. There is nothing in
16 between. And this brings us back to what Rustom Ghazaleh said, "You are
17 either with us or against us." This is what we hear in all
18 dictatorships, in all totalitarian regimes, there is no medium.
19 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Mr. Cameron asked you whether
20 Nasser Kandil belonged to Mr. Hariri's parliamentary bloc. My question
21 is: Didn't Nasser Kandil run for elections on the list headed by
22 Prime Minister Hariri and this is how he was able to get a seat in the
23 Parliament?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was one of the so-called Syrian
25 deposits. Hariri was obliged to add Kandil, Bassem Yamout, Adnan Arakji.
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1 They used to be described as the Syrian deposits on Hariri's list. The
2 Syrians asked Hariri to add these MPs or candidates on his electoral
3 list.
4 MR. CAMERON:
5 Q. And did you have discussions with the Prime Minister about the
6 fact that Syrian deposits had been imposed on him, on his electoral list?
7 A. Later on, yes, we discussed this in 2005 January, February, early
8 February, we discussed it and Prime Minister Hariri was totally opposed
9 renew this bitter experience and to accept the so-called Syrian deposits
10 on his electoral list and that they would gain a seat in the Parliament
11 through the voices of Hariri's supporters. His position was very firm,
12 he was totally opposed to that.
13 MR. CAMERON: The next document that I'd like to show the witness
14 appears at position 31 in the English and 32 in the Arabic on the
15 presentation queue of the Prosecution. It similarly is a United Nations
16 Information Centre Press Review dated the 15th of October, 2004. It has
17 an ERN range of D0411558 to 1563. It is submitted on the same basis as
18 the last two and I'd seek an exhibit number now for it, please.
19 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: It will be received as Prosecution
20 Exhibit P433.
21 MR. CAMERON: And if the witness could be taken to page 2 of that
22 document which is at ERN D0411559, please.
23 Q. We have the heading near down the page: "Ex-President Gemayel
24 Sparks Uproar by Syria's Allies in Lebanon." And the Middle East
25 Reporter relates:
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1 "Former President Amin Gemayel was the subject of a heated
2 campaign Thursday, according to the Beirut media Friday. Pro-Syria
3 politicians responded sharply to criticisms the former president had made
4 to Syrian President Bashar Al-Assad's speech on October 9 at a Damascus
5 conference of Syrian ex-patriots. Gemayel's remarks opened the door for
6 waves of criticisms from Syria's allies. Al Mustaqbal newspaper quoted
7 MP Bassem Yamout as saying it was Gemayel who opened old wounds. Yamout
8 asked: 'Does he want to remind us of a period when some depended on
9 outside forces, after (Egypt's president Anwar) Sadat's visit to
10 Jerusalem?' Al-Hayat reported Friday that Yamout accused the former
11 president of playing a leading role in agitating the political struggles
12 within the Christian community, 'so that he can keep the leading role
13 among the Christians for himself.'"
14 Now through this period of time, were you having conversations
15 and discussions with former president Amin Gemayel, whose name we saw as
16 being absent at the first Bristol meeting?
17 A. I said yesterday that President Amin Gemayel paid a visit to
18 Mokhtara in the year 2000 and that was an occasion for a major political
19 reconciliation in Lebanon between two groups, two communities in Lebanon
20 that were engaged in fierce battles during the civil war. We sealed a
21 reconciliation in Mokhtara. We signed a document to seal this
22 reconciliation, and we -- after that we were constantly in touch with
23 him, with other groups in the Qornet-Chehwan Gathering, and also with the
24 patriarch.
25 Q. And in particular, after the period of time of the extension of
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1 President Lahoud, did you continue to have reasonably frequent meetings
2 with Amin Gemayel in your efforts to expand the coalition that you had --
3 were developing in opposition?
4 A. Even if it wasn't done directly, we constantly had people who
5 mediated or sent and received messages and exchanged messages between us.
6 Late MP Antoine Ghanem acted also as an envoy to convey messages between
7 me and President Gemayel.
8 Q. Do you know who MP Bassem Yamout was?
9 A. No, I heard of him. I think he's a physician. He was on the
10 list of so-called Syrian deposits.
11 Q. He was -- in that respect in the same category as Nasser Kandil?
12 A. Same category. I think he's a brilliant physician, but he
13 decided to join the same category along with Kandil and Arakji, part of
14 the Syrian deposits, pro-Syrian allies in Lebanon.
15 MR. CAMERON: The next document that I'd like to show
16 Mr. Jumblatt appears at position 3 in the Arabic and position 4 in the
17 English translation. This is a document that was previously part of
18 Exhibit P303 and so it should receive its own ERN -- or own exhibit
19 number in due course. It's a press release dated on the 21st of October,
20 2004, and an indication that it was published in Al Mustaqbal Newspaper
21 on the 22nd of October, 2004. It has an ERN range of D0004778.
22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: You want a separate exhibit number for this?
23 MR. CAMERON: Yes, please.
24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: We'll give you one. It will be
25 Exhibit P434.
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1 MR. CAMERON:
2 Q. Now, this is dated the 21st of October, 2004, and it's not
3 contested that in fact the Prime Minister had resigned on the previous
4 day, the 20th of October, 2004. Did you have discussions with the
5 Prime Minister prior to his resignation about, A, the timing of his
6 resignation; and B, why he resigned?
7 A. We knew that he was not able to reach any political objective.
8 He postponed his resignation in order to see if some political
9 developments will improve. Maybe he thought also that based on his
10 international relations and connections he could achieve some improvement
11 in terms of the political atmosphere in Lebanon. Namely, after when he
12 told me that Chirac sent a message to Bashar, maybe after that he thought
13 that it would have been -- it could be possible to reach a certain
14 balance. But on the 20th of October he decided to resign because he saw
15 that all options were made impossible and he concluded his letter of
16 resignation by saying, "I bid farewell to Lebanon and I leave Lebanon in
17 God's hands."
18 Q. During the meetings that you had with the Prime Minister which
19 you've described as reasonably regular, did you discuss the issue of his
20 frustration in trying to work with what he was left with after the
21 extension of President Lahoud?
22 A. Of course we discussed this and I was encouraging him to
23 accelerate his decision about the resignation. I knew it was impossible
24 to reach a certain level of co-operation between him and Lahoud. When he
25 realized this, he resigned. I was advising him to resign on the spot and
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1 my position was the following: Let others shoulder the responsibility
2 and the consequences of renewing Lahoud's mandate. Why was it up for
3 Hariri to shoulder such a responsibility. Let's leave it to someone
4 else.
5 Q. I just wanted to take you briefly to one phrase that you use or
6 are purported to have used in this article. The article begins in its
7 text:
8 "MP Walid Jumblatt, leader of the Progressive Socialist Party and
9 the Democratic Gathering, criticized what he called 'authority idiocy.'
10 He found that 'there is a close-mindedness and an uncomfortable security
11 sphere; they bear the responsibility thereof.' He also said: 'Poor
12 Prime Minister (Omar) Karami, not he who forms the government.'"
13 What did you intend to mean by, in particular, that last phrase,
14 "poor Prime Minister Karami, not he who forms the government"?
15 A. I meant that the government was being formed in the office of
16 Rustom Ghazaleh. This is what I meant. This is what I meant when I used
17 this term describing late Omar Karami.
18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Why did you hold that view?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was the reality on the ground,
20 Your Honour. There was no margin of manoeuvre, of freedom in Lebanon
21 under the Syrian presence. This was the reality on the ground and things
22 got worse and the stranglehold grew stronger and firmer after the
23 extension of Lahoud's term. This is what we were witnessing back then.
24 I used to joke sometimes, saying that as if Omar Karami formed the
25 government. That was not the reality, he did not form any government,
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1 any cabinet. They brought him a list of the ministers that would form
2 the government.
3 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: How do you know that?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We knew it because when we were
5 Syria's allies, Your Honour, we used to go through the same steps and
6 procedure. We had a bigger or wider margin of manoeuvre because of our
7 friends in Damascus and also because the style of President
8 Hafez Al-Assad was different from that of Bashar Assad. The style of
9 Ghazi Kanaan is different from that of Rustom Ghazaleh. So we had a
10 certain margin of manoeuvre. We had some ministers we would choose or
11 appoint and not the Syrians.
12 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: What I'm getting at is how do you,
13 Mr. Jumblatt, know that Mr. Rustom Ghazaleh presented Mr. Karami with a
14 list of ministers, dictating to him who he should appoint?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have the names right now,
16 the names of the ministers in Omar Karami's government, except for one
17 name, I think Wiam Wahab, but they are all Syrian allies. They are all
18 Syrian allies and they're all in the same camp, they're pro-Syrian and
19 they are opposed to me and to Rafik Hariri. It's quite obvious. I'm
20 talking in politics, right, I mean I don't have information about who
21 contacted whom at the time, but as far as I'm concerned this is a detail.
22 Of course this is more important to you, but I was not sitting with
23 Rustom Ghazaleh in his office forming the government.
24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: So it's your assumption rather than
25 something you have any personal knowledge of? I just want to clear that
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1 up for the record.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's an assumption based on
3 political facts, on how things were happening in Lebanon at the time.
4 MR. CAMERON:
5 Q. Did you know Prime Minister Karami before he took office?
6 A. Of course I know him. I've known the Karami family for a long
7 time. The Karami family has a long-standing political history in
8 Lebanon. Rachid Karami was an old friend of Kamal Jumblatt and I knew
9 very well Rachid Karami and it's known -- the political situation of the
10 Karami family is known in Lebanese politics. It's no secret.
11 Q. And did you know Prime Minister Karami's political affiliations,
12 what were they?
13 A. At the time what was needed and required was the biggest
14 coalition that would be opposed to Walid Jumblatt and Rafik Hariri, and
15 he was a Syrian ally, he was pro-Syrian and he was opposed to
16 Rafik Hariri, Rafik Hariri's policies, and of course he was opposed to
17 Walid Jumblatt.
18 Q. Do you know how it was that Mr. Karami gained the prime
19 ministership after Prime Minister Hariri's resignation? Was there a
20 process in Parliament that led to that result?
21 A. There was no process in Parliament. The name of Omar Karami was
22 chosen as the candidate of the other party, the other camp, and the
23 government was formed. This is how things happen. It could have been
24 someone else, but they chose Omar Karami because he is someone, his name
25 means something to the Syrians, and he is capable of confronting Hariri.
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1 I don't think that anyone else was willing to confront Hariri.
2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Why do you think Mr. Karami would put
3 himself in this position?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in politics there are
5 political divisions, natural political divisions. There is a jealously
6 also in politics. I don't want to put a lot on the shoulders of
7 Omar Karami because he passed away and there is a friendship between my
8 family and the family of Omar Karami. I don't want now after his death
9 to say bad things and insult and bad-mouth him in front of the Tribunal
10 and the Lebanese public in general, but there are political divisions in
11 politics and this is my answer.
12 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] In Mr. Cameron's question when he
13 asked about the premiership of Mr. Karami, I think that he was talking
14 about and asking about the process of parliamentary consultations, that
15 these consultations are binding for the president, and based upon these
16 consultations he appoints a prime minister.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, if you're talking about
18 the method, yes. I was talking and answering in politics. I was not
19 answering about the process. The process is well-known.
20 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Do you remember which political and
21 parliamentary blocs did not give confidence to Prime Minister Karami?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember my bloc did not give him
23 a vote of confidence. I don't remember about the others, but I remember
24 that my bloc did not give him the vote of confidence.
25 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] What about Prime Minister Hariri at
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1 the time?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Frankly, I don't know. To be
3 honest, I don't remember.
4 MR. CAMERON: The next document that I'd like to show the witness
5 appears at positions 5 in the Arabic and 6 in the English on the
6 presentation queue. It's press release dated the 31st of October, 2004.
7 It has the ERN range D0004779 to 4781.
8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P435.
9 MR. CAMERON: And if I could ask the witness to be shown the
10 first page of the document, D0004779, please.
11 Q. Now, the second paragraph of this document states:
12 "Yesterday evening, Jumblatt visited Prime Minister Hariri at his
13 home in Quraitem accompanied with Democratic Gathering member MP Ghazi
14 El-Aridi. The three reviewed the public affairs."
15 We see this from time to time in press releases, people review
16 the public affairs or the affairs of the day. Do you have an
17 understanding of whether that's just a catch phrase for not saying much
18 at all, not related to the actual content of the meeting?
19 A. This is a regular phrase that is used by most politicians in
20 Lebanon, it's a regular phrase. It doesn't have a particular meaning.
21 Q. It continues:
22 "The day before yesterday, Jumblatt talked to public, municipal
23 and union delegations in Mokhtara Palace. Addressing the delegation of
24 Kfarhim, he said: 'Through some features of this ministry, one further
25 understands why they tried to assassinate Marwan Hamade. The days will
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1 reveal everything. We hope that the state will make the required
2 investigation as soon as possible.
3 "We already know that this investigation is proceeding slowly as
4 the minister of justice (Adnan Addoum) stated on TV and in the media.
5 The most important thing is that we are not dragged into a domestic
6 disturbance because this is their agenda.'"
7 Particularly in the final phrase, what were you talking about
8 when you made that statement? What did you intend to convey?
9 A. We were expecting the Lebanese judiciary and the Lebanese
10 investigation to show and identify those who tried to assassinate Marwan.
11 As you know, we did not trust the Lebanese security agencies, but in the
12 end, at the time, there was no talk of international tribunal or not, so
13 we had to find a means, local means, to sort the situation and that was
14 the Lebanese security services and the Lebanese judiciary. And we were
15 still waiting to see concrete results from the Lebanese judiciary
16 regarding the perpetrators of the attempted assassination of Marwan.
17 This is what I meant by this statement.
18 Q. Now, the 31st is 11 days after the resignation of the
19 Prime Minister, and you may not have a specific recollection of this
20 particular meeting with the Prime Minister, but what kinds of things
21 generally were you discussing with the Prime Minister throughout this
22 period; that is, the period after his resignation from Parliament?
23 A. A number of issues, but because I was part of that alliance with
24 Qornet-Chehwan, and that was called the Bristol Gathering, the first
25 Bristol meeting, my request, my demand, was for Prime Minister Hariri to
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1 join this national front in order to provide support to this national
2 front and be able to confront Lahoud and the Syrians. This has always
3 been my demand. I wanted him to join us to, to join our colleagues in
4 the Bristol Gathering.
5 Q. Well, he shared your notion of which model to adopt in respect of
6 withdrawal of Syrian forces pursuant to the Taif Accord. What was the
7 Prime Minister's -- did the Prime Minister have a reluctance to join you?
8 Why was it necessary for you to persuade him?
9 A. It seemed that maybe he had different calculations. Perhaps he
10 was still expecting some kind of change in the situation, in the
11 political situation, between Lebanon and Syria, but I say "maybe,
12 perhaps." And perhaps he was delaying this process, the process of
13 joining us, for his own objectives and aims. Maybe he was delaying it
14 until the right time comes for him to join us.
15 Q. At this period of time, do you have an understanding that -- as
16 to whether or not the Prime Minister intended to run in the next
17 elections?
18 A. We had set up a joint plan, a joint plan. Yes, of course he
19 wanted to run for elections, and we had set up a joint plan to see how we
20 could make up the lists and refuse the so-called Syrian deposits and to
21 plan the confrontation. Yes, that was the objective of the elections
22 that were scheduled for 2005 until he was assassinated.
23 JUDGE BRAIDY: Mr. Cameron, before this.
24 [Interpretation] I have a question. Prime Minister Hariri had
25 some reservations and he was a little bit reluctant in joining the
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1 opposition. When did he make the decision to really join the opposition?
2 Did he express that to you? Did he say that to you? And in a first
3 stage, before joining the opposition, what was his position clearly?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that in the Bristol 2 on
5 the 13th of December, 2004, if I'm not mistaken, in Bristol 2 there was
6 an attempt by Prime Minister Hariri to join us. He sent at the time
7 Farid Makari, Ahmad Fatfat, and Ghattas Khoury to attend Bristol 2. That
8 was a beginning, a political indication, a sign that he was joining us
9 slowly. It was a political sign. He had his own calculations. I don't
10 know what these calculations were, but he was -- he did not want to make
11 an abrupt turn in the confrontation with Syria.
12 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Was the position of the Syrians,
13 in some instances did it prompt him to head more towards joining the
14 opposition more clearly, more expressly?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The threat of Rustom is enough.
16 The threats made by Rustom were enough and sufficient and it's enough
17 that he submitted his resignation. So he reached an impasse. He wanted
18 to improve the conditions of the confrontation, he was studying that.
19 Again, I repeat, his style in politics is different than mine. He had a
20 different way of doing politics, but we agreed on the objectives.
21 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] From his meetings with
22 Walid Moallem, it seems that he is making reproaches to them, that they
23 have pushed him towards the opposition through their positions regarding
24 the electoral law, for example. Did he express to you his anger or
25 discontent that this law was aimed at him, at undermining him, and that
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1 he considered that they somehow declared war against him?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, the proposed bill at the
3 time when this bill was proposed, they were trying to eliminate
4 Rafik Hariri. They divided Beirut in a way to eliminate Rafik Hariri and
5 undermine his influence all over Beirut. The law was based on the idea
6 of eliminating Rafik Hariri, Walid Jumblatt, and everyone else. It was a
7 law aimed at excluding everyone. Rafik Hariri rejected that draft law
8 and he told Walid Moallem in the conversation, "If this law is passed in
9 Parliament, I will resign, I will resign with my bloc."
10 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Did he make up his mind to join in
11 Bristol 3?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bristol 3, when Bassel Fuleihan and
13 Ghattas Khoury attended, officially, yes, in Bristol 3, and it was a very
14 important political sign, indication, that Rafik Hariri had officially
15 joined the opposition, the opposition to the Syrian tutelage through
16 Emile Lahoud. It was a very important sign for us, very important.
17 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Jumblatt, were there no persons whatsoever
18 within the Bristol Group who had sympathies with Syria?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not at all, not at all, no one
20 had sympathies with Syria. That was the main front that was opposed to
21 the extension of Lahoud's term and to the Syrian presence. That was the
22 main front of confrontation, but of course there were discussions within
23 these meetings, during these meetings, the Bristol meetings. There were
24 discussions regarding Resolution 1559 and the Taif Agreement. We were
25 committed until the end to the Taif Agreement, and then the last
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1 statement made in Bristol 3 we reiterated our commitment and respect of
2 the Taif Agreement, and we discussed ways of dealing with Resolution 1559
3 and see how the Lebanese state can deal in order to deal with this
4 resolution.
5 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Given the nature of Syrian intelligence within
6 the Lebanon and the fact that there would have been an element of
7 mistrust generally as to who was with the Syrians and who were not, was
8 it not a bit naive and dangerous for Mr. Hariri to have sent two persons
9 to represent him initially, and then Messrs. Ghattas Khoury and
10 Fuleihan, wasn't there always a risk that it would get back to the
11 Syrians and it would vex them and produce a hostile response to him,
12 given that his position was somewhat dual?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He crossed the point of no return
14 and he said, "I'm officially against you," and that was a very important
15 sign for us. Was it dangerous? Of course it was dangerous because
16 when -- from the start in -- initially he refused the extension. In my
17 opinion when he met with Bashar Assad on the 26th of August, 2004, I
18 think the death sentence was made then, but the implementation was
19 delayed due to political circumstances. That's my opinion.
20 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much, Mr. Jumblatt.
21 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: We'll take a break in a moment, but we will
22 give you a few minutes' head-start on us with the lunch, Mr. Jumblatt.
23 We just have to deal with something administrative. So the court officer
24 will take you -- when I say "take you to lunch," he'll take you outside
25 so you can have your lunch, although I'm sure he'd love to have lunch
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1 with you, but that's a different issue all together.
2 Mr. Cameron and Mr. Roberts, this urgent Prosecution request to
3 vary the disclosure time-limit filed yesterday.
4 Mr. Roberts, have you had a chance to consider the Prosecution's
5 request to extend the normal period to the 29th of May to complete what
6 they say are quite detailed further reviews?
7 [The witness stands down]
8 MR. ROBERTS: Yes, I have, Your Honour. Unfortunately for the
9 Prosecution, we don't really see how it's justified in the circumstances
10 based on what they've explained in their response. If you'd like me to
11 proceed, it will only take a couple of minutes just to explain how.
12 In their response --
13 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Just be aware that this has been filed for
14 the moment confidentially, it hasn't been -- they haven't filed a
15 redacted version. Please be very aware in your very brief submissions.
16 MR. ROBERTS: Certainly, Your Honour, it's merely in relation --
17 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And please be aware of the few seconds
18 between speakers. I know you're very hasty to get your few minutes of
19 submissions out. Thank you.
20 MR. ROBERTS: I'm very hungry, Your Honour.
21 To be brief, I won't refer to anything confidential, obviously,
22 in the filing, but just in relation to this filing it seems to suggest
23 that it only refers obviously to one phone number that they're seeking to
24 find relevant content of, and also that search has already been
25 conducted. If you look at paragraph 4 of the Prosecution response, they
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1 suggest that in relation to the categories of information we have
2 requested, they've already carried out the search. So I fail to
3 understand how it therefore takes another 25 days to give us the results
4 of those search -- of that search. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the
5 Prosecution response, but to me that doesn't seem to be particularly
6 clear.
7 And secondly, in relation to paragraph 7 it suggests that it's
8 conducted a review of more than 8.000 SMS; however, my understanding is
9 that it doesn't have to review 8.000 SMS now, it's obviously located or
10 searched for the ones that it considers relevant, and so that figure is
11 potentially misleading. My understanding is there should be a
12 significantly smaller number of SMS that it now has searched and located,
13 and we fail to understand how it's unable to disclose that a lot sooner
14 than 25 days.
15 Just finally on that point, obviously this all originates from a
16 request from us dated the 13th of April, so any further delay to
17 disclosure must be taken in that light. And in relation to the
18 substance, obviously without explaining exactly what it is, this does
19 relate to upcoming witnesses who are scheduled for early June. So a
20 delay until the end of May, 29th of May, would cause us problems in
21 relation to the witnesses that are scheduled for that date; and as a
22 consequence, we would request the Prosecution to bring the deadline
23 significantly closer. Thank you.
24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, the last point is clearly that
25 of most consequence.
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1 MR. CAMERON: I was not aware that you wanted to address this
2 orally. I can have somebody who is very familiar with the motion and the
3 intricacies and the practical limitations available for you immediately
4 after lunch. That would be the most efficient way of assisting you.
5 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: All right. The point which concerns us most
6 is the point Mr. Roberts has just raised about witnesses coming in early
7 June who may be affected by this delayed disclosure occurring on the 29th
8 of May. So I'd be very grateful if your colleague could see if there's
9 any way of reducing the period you think you need. But we'll hear a very
10 brief response from you when we resume.
11 MR. CAMERON: Thank you.
12 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you, Mr. Cameron.
13 We will adjourn.
14 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.15 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 2.32 p.m.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 MR. CAMERON: My colleague Pascal Chenivesse is here to address
18 you very briefly about the issue that you inquired about earlier.
19 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Jumblatt, we are just continuing with an
20 administrative matter we have to deal with, so consider it an enriching
21 experience to be involved in the intricacies of criminal justice and
22 decision on disclosure.
23 Yes, please.
24 MR. CHENIVESSE: Good afternoon, Your Honours. So I will address
25 the questions you have asked this morning about the time that the
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1 Prosecution needs to complete the assessment of an analysis of data that
2 the Defence has requested.
3 So first a clarification about what has already been done in
4 relation to one phone number. The request from the Defence concern
5 approximately 8.000 SMS. So we are already finished the research through
6 these SMSs and what we need to do now is to analyse the results that were
7 found to determine whether some of this data could be disclosable to the
8 Defence.
9 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Can I just --
10 MR. CHENIVESSE: We wanted to --
11 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Can I just ask you to pause for a second.
12 The point -- the only point which is of concern to us is when you
13 can have it done by. The -- you've said 29th of May. The Defence says
14 that's too late because you have witnesses coming which may be affected
15 by this data. Can you just tell us two things: Firstly, when are those
16 witnesses coming, and can you reduce the period from the 29th of May?
17 Those are the two points we're most interested in.
18 MR. CHENIVESSE: So first my understanding is that these two
19 witnesses will appear beginning of June, so that's -- the exact date is
20 something I may have to check, but what I wanted to clarify about --
21 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: That's what I want -- you've got another
22 microphone on there. What I want is the exact date. We need to work out
23 if we have to make a decision ordering the Prosecution to disclose it
24 earlier, that's the information I need. When are the witnesses coming?
25 Just the date. And can you do it earlier than the 29th of May? Two
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1 things.
2 MR. CHENIVESSE: Of course. But -- so I think they will -- these
3 two witnesses will come on the 2nd and 3rd of June, but what I would like
4 to clarify in relation to these two witnesses is that we don't understand
5 why the counsel believe that these witnesses may have any link whatsoever
6 with the data that we are analysing.
7 We understand that these two witnesses were part of the convoy
8 and were not involved in the investigation. When -- the data we are
9 analysing, there is nothing about the convoy itself or what has happened
10 in the convoy of Rafik Hariri; it is related to the investigation and the
11 vast majority of this data is also posterior to 2005. So that's why we
12 don't -- the Prosecution does not understand why the counsel, the
13 Defence, believe that there may be any link with this -- the data and the
14 witnesses.
15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And the second question? You've said the
16 29th of May --
17 MR. CHENIVESSE: Yes.
18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: -- can you get it done any earlier? I'll
19 come back to Mr. Roberts in a moment. Can you get it done any earlier
20 than the 29th? If so -- it's not an auction. I just want to know what
21 your best estimate earlier than 29th of May is. I mean, it's not a Dutch
22 auction where you go down until you sell.
23 MR. CHENIVESSE: I understand. The point is that now what we
24 need to do is not only to analyse this data but the analysis is important
25 because we have to go, for example, through to determine who are the
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1 senders or the receivers of the SMSs of the person who used these phones.
2 And it may happen, for example, that we find out that given the person in
3 question was acting in his official capacity, that this data may involve
4 certain question of security or may need for the Prosecution to see if
5 certain protective measures are -- could be or should be involved. And
6 we may have, for example, to consult the Lebanese authorities about that.
7 That's why it's difficult at this stage for the Prosecution to determine
8 whether there is any possibility to finish -- to complete this analysis
9 and to determine the disclosure status of any data involved before the
10 29th of May. But of course if it is possible to come to complete this
11 analysis before the 29th of May, the Prosecution is really willing to do
12 it. That's -- I hope I have been clear, but that's why it's difficult to
13 give you another dead-line today.
14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: So three words which would have summed up
15 your submission are: I don't think so.
16 Let me turn to Mr. Roberts. Can you please just address that
17 very brief point of the relevance of the data to the witnesses on the 2nd
18 and 3rd of June and just assure us that you're not at cross-purposes with
19 the Prosecutor and just please wait. Okay.
20 MR. ROBERTS: I can assure you that we're not at cross-purposes
21 with the Prosecution. Just if it helps to clarify the PRH numbers of the
22 two witnesses are PRH357 and PRH149, which are listed, as far as we're
23 aware, although there's not an official schedule by the Prosecution, to
24 testify on that week of the 1st to the 5th of June, just to clarify that.
25 In relation to the relevance of these witnesses, I'd prefer not
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1 to be entering into this in too much detail in public session and also in
2 the presence of a witness, but in general terms obviously the person to
3 whom this content relates is a -- directly related to those two witnesses
4 in terms of the organization they both work for and the role of that
5 individual within working for Mr. Hariri. So unfortunately, I can't
6 provide too much more detail at this juncture. I could provide more
7 assistance at a later date if that assists, but as I say in public
8 session I'd prefer not to get too much into the details.
9 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay. Thank you. The Chamber will make the
10 following ruling. Yesterday, May the 4th, the Prosecutor filed an urgent
11 Prosecution request to vary disclosure time-limit from the time when they
12 received a letter from counsel for Mr. Sabra on the 13th of April, 2015,
13 they want to extend the Pre-Trial Judge's Working Plan period to the
14 29th of May, 2015. We've heard the submissions of both parties. The
15 Chamber will make the following order. The Prosecutor is to complete it
16 by Tuesday, the 26th of May, and earlier if possible, and to please
17 provide us with -- the Chamber with a progress report by the -- Friday,
18 the 22nd of May as to how you are going with that. If either party needs
19 to approach the Chamber to seek a variation, we will hear it then. Thank
20 you.
21 That completes the ruling.
22 MR. ROBERTS: Sorry, Your Honour, just on that last point, could
23 we receive the progress report as well just so that we would be able to
24 make any submissions to you, the one that's provided to the Chamber, or
25 is that intended to be an ex parte report?
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1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: No, no, it's certainly not intended to be
2 ex parte. It's for you. Of course it's -- the report to the Chamber is
3 of course to the parties, yes, it's implicit. Thank you for your
4 submissions.
5 Mr. Cameron, let's return to Mr. Jumblatt.
6 MR. CAMERON: Just before I ask a question of Mr. Jumblatt, you
7 had inquired about the dates upon which Jacques Chirac may have visited
8 Lebanon and addressed the Lebanese Parliament, and I can advise you that
9 he attended Lebanon between the 4th and 6th of April of 1996, and he
10 addressed the Lebanese Parliament on the 4th of April, 1996. In
11 addition, he addressed the Lebanese Parliament at a Francophone summit on
12 the 17th of October, 2002.
13 Q. Mr. Jumblatt, good afternoon. Before the break we were looking
14 at the time-period around the end of October of 2004 after the
15 resignation of the Prime Minister. And I had asked you during that
16 period of time did you have an understanding as to whether or not the
17 Prime Minister intended to run in the next elections, and you said that
18 you had set up a joint plan with him to run in the next elections, a
19 joint plan to see how we could make up the list and refuse the so-called
20 Syrian deposits and to plan the confrontation.
21 Now, may I ask when was the genesis of this joint plan in the
22 sequence of events? As I understand it, this has come into being by the
23 end of October. How soon in the process did it begin? Was it before the
24 extension of President Lahoud? Shortly afterwards? Or was it after the
25 resignation of the Prime Minister?
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1 A. After the resignation of Prime Minister Hariri from the
2 government, yes, after the resignation, the consultations were happening
3 on a weekly basis on how to confront the situation and, most importantly,
4 how to win the elections without the pro-Syrian candidates and how to
5 make up a government that is independent from the Syrian tutelage. So
6 yes, after the resignation.
7 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, I should have intervened a
8 moment ago, when you gave us those dates of Mr. Chirac's visit to -- two
9 visits to Lebanon.
10 I take it there is no dispute from the Defence that those were
11 the dates in question? I assume you've had time to do your own googling.
12 It appears not.
13 Thank you.
14 MR. CAMERON: If the witness could be shown the two documents
15 that appear at positions 35 in the English and 36 in the presentation
16 queue of the Prosecution. This document and its translation represents a
17 Press Review issued by the United Nations Information Centre. It's dated
18 23rd of November, 2004, the beginning ERN number is D0412140 through to
19 D0412150. This has been deemed admissible by the Trial Chamber in its
20 decision of the 30th of December, 2014. And I understand that the next
21 exhibit number is P436.
22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: We will admit it as Exhibit P436.
23 MR. CAMERON: If I could ask the clerk to go to the fifth page of
24 the document and over to the sixth page, bearing the ERN ranges D0412144
25 to 145, please.
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1 Q. The title at the bottom of this page, Mr. Jumblatt, is "Jumblatt
2 Rejects Anew Syria's Meddling in Lebanon," from the Naharnet:
3 "Druze MP Walid Jumblatt has once again announced his rejection
4 of Syria's meddling in Lebanon's domestic affairs although he declared
5 support for a continuing Syrian military presence in the east Lebanon
6 Beqaa valley to guard against an Israeli flank attack on Damascus."
7 Now, just stopping there, is that generally consistent with the
8 approach of staged withdrawal according to the Taif Accord? Does that
9 correspond to -- or is it something different?
10 A. No, this is different. This is different because in Taif the
11 agreement did not stipulate and mention the issue of the repositioning of
12 the Syrian forces in order for them to stay and defend and confront an
13 Israeli attack. The essence of the Lebanese-Syrian relationship as it
14 was drafted and as I understood it and as the late Rafik Hariri
15 understood it meant that Lebanon should have a strong army that would be
16 in charge of its borders, and this army would co-ordinate with the Syrian
17 army in case -- in the case or in the event of an Israeli attack against
18 Syria or Lebanon. And in the end there are areas in the Beqaa that are
19 considered to be the flank of Syria, the flank of Damascus, and it is
20 necessary for the two armies in the case of an attack to co-ordinate and
21 work together to defend both Lebanon and Syria because we both share the
22 same enemy. But that is outside the context of the formal and official
23 text of the Taif Agreement, which requires and stipulates a staged
24 withdrawal of the Syrian forces.
25 Q. So is this a fine-tuning of the principles of the Taif Accord in
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1 2004 that were contemplated when it was signed originally; is that how we
2 may characterize this?
3 A. No, this is a political statement. This is a statement that has
4 political significance. On my part, me, Walid Jumblatt, that despite my
5 opposition, my strong opposition to the Syrian presence in Lebanon, in
6 the end Lebanon's interests and Syria's interests are to confront Israel;
7 nothing more, nothing less. And this has nothing to do with the
8 political context. I cannot personally change and modify the
9 Taif Agreement. This is just political talk that falls within the
10 context of the overall policy that I believed in. As I said, I used to
11 be a Syrian ally and I had the same conviction, that Lebanon should
12 provide some sort of security to Syria, but Lebanon also has the right to
13 be independent.
14 Q. Do you remember yesterday and earlier today we had discussed --
15 reverted to three different models for the withdrawal of Syrian troops
16 from Lebanon. One was the 1559 -- Resolution 1559, complete withdrawal
17 that was advocated by Patriarch Sfeir; the second was the staged
18 withdrawal which you saw as consonant with the Taif Accord; and the third
19 was no withdrawal at all. Among those three models, does this represent
20 a different model, somewhere between the non-withdrawal and the Taif
21 Accord? Is this a fourth model that is to be considered?
22 A. It cannot be a fourth model. It is a statement made by a
23 politician in Lebanon, myself, that when the situation stabilizes, when
24 the Syrians withdraw pursuant to Taif, it is our right as Lebanese to
25 have a joint Defence plan. This is my vision, we should have a joint
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1 defence plan in case Israel attacks Lebanon. Because in the end we are
2 two Arab countries and we are both in a historic confrontation with
3 Israel. There has been some joint operations and confrontations. In the
4 Beqaa valley a confrontation of Israel in the 1980s. So this is simply a
5 political matter, but I was insisting on the Syrian withdrawal, but this
6 is simply a political comment on some sort of common denominators in the
7 issue of the defence between Syria and Lebanon in case of an Israeli
8 attack.
9 Q. The paragraph continues:
10 "Addressing visiting delegations of supporters at his ancestral
11 mansion in Mokhtara Saturday, Jumblatt accused the Lahoud-Karami regime
12 of waging a repressive campaign to portray him as a traitor who backs
13 UN Resolution 1559 in its bid to break Syria's tutelage over Lebanon,
14 An-Nahar and others reported Sunday."
15 Now, when you use the term Lahoud-Karami regime, can you tell us
16 why you refer to it in those terms?
17 A. For the simple reason is that unfortunately, and with all due
18 respect to the Karami family and their history, at the time Omar Karami
19 chose - and that was a personal choice - he chose to join the
20 Lahoud-Bashar alliance. This is why I called them the Lahoud-Karami
21 regime or Lahoud-Karami alliance.
22 Q. And was it your view that their interests were aligned?
23 A. Of course they were aligned. When Rafik Hariri reached an
24 impasse, a deadlock, and he was forced to resign after he tried to make a
25 change, he was forced to resign or he was convinced of the necessity to
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1 resign when he saw that there was a deadlock in the Lebanese-Syrian
2 relations. And he was thinking his own way, he was also thinking and he
3 had in mind this threat, the threat that was made by Bashar Al-Assad, and
4 he was also thinking of the bloody message that we have received, the
5 message that was implemented in practice and that was interpreted in the
6 attempted assassination on Marwan Hamade. In the end, Rafik Hariri is a
7 politician and he understood politics.
8 Q. And the next passage in the paragraph below says:
9 "'Now there is a new government resolution that bans any civil
10 servant from contacting Walid Jumblatt at the risk of being punished,'
11 Jumblatt said, according to An-Nahar. He rejected all together a recent
12 Karami classification of the Lebanese as split into one group supporting
13 1559 and another advocating the national line.'"
14 What were you talking about the resolution that banned civil
15 servants from contacting you?
16 A. I think that at the time the government made a decision, and in
17 Lebanon politicians have to deal one way or another. We have contacts
18 with employees, with director-general, with army officers. I think at
19 the time there was a decision made by the government, the government of
20 Omar Karami, with the instructions given from Emile Lahoud that I was not
21 allowed to talk to any governmental employee, and if any governmental
22 employee talks to Walid Jumblatt, they face punishment. That was some
23 kind of a threat and warning to employees and civil servants if they
24 decide to contact Walid Jumblatt.
25 Q. And how did you learn of that?
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1 A. I learned that from the practice from what was happening on a
2 day-to-day basis. For example, if you contact a director-general
3 somewhere and you never receive an answer. Can you imagine
4 Walid Jumblatt contacting a director-general and the director-general
5 refuses to take the call and answer? It's known that my house and the
6 residence of any politician, the residence of Rafik Hariri, were -- had
7 an open-door policy. Our political system is different maybe from
8 Western political systems and regimes. Any civil servant, any officer,
9 any judge sometimes would come and greet us. We have social connections,
10 we have social contacts, and political contacts on a regular basis. The
11 administration in our country is a politicized administration. Some
12 people support Walid Jumblatt, others support Rafik Hariri, others
13 support other politicians, but that was a threat, a warning to those who
14 had some kind of political affiliation, who were affiliated with
15 Walid Jumblatt. It was a warning to them not to be in touch and in
16 contact with Walid Jumblatt.
17 Q. So in your dealings with the government you found yourself being
18 given the cold shoulder every time you tried to make an overture; is that
19 correct?
20 A. Anyway, I didn't really care about these contacts because, as I
21 said, this government was a hostile one with its key personalities. I
22 don't want to go into names right now because I'm -- I don't want to go
23 into a political debate back in Beirut. But at the time all I cared
24 about was for Rafik Hariri - rest in peace - to join us in this
25 broad-based alliance, national alliance, and in this confrontation of
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1 Lahoud and Omar Karami government and Bashar Al-Assad.
2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Can we get some clarification. The
3 statement said that there was a new government resolution that bans any
4 civil servant from contacting Walid Jumblatt at the risk of being
5 punished."
6 And Mr. Cameron just asked you about how you knew about this, and
7 so far you've said you learned that from the practice what was happening
8 on a day-to-day basis, and you said if you contact a director-general
9 somewhere and you never receive an answer, and you also said you didn't
10 really care about these contacts when Mr. Cameron asked you if you found
11 yourself being given the cold shoulder every time you tried to make
12 contact.
13 Can you be a little bit clearer for the Trial Chamber and perhaps
14 link what you've just said to Mr. Cameron with what it says in that
15 statement, that there was a resolution banning civil servants from
16 talking to you. You haven't actually said yet that you personally tried
17 to talk to civil servants and they wouldn't talk to you or that you knew
18 directly that there was such a ban or an edict, spoken or unspoken,
19 written or unwritten.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there was no written
21 ban. There was an instruction, an order, issued by Lahoud to some civil
22 servant, to the minister of justice, minister of defence, anyone in the
23 public administration telling them: You do not have the right to have
24 any contact with Walid Jumblatt. This is how politics are run in
25 Lebanon. They received orders not to contact Walid Jumblatt, and they
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1 also issued orders banning any civil servants or military staff from
2 having contact with Walid Jumblatt. Based on our political system in
3 Lebanon, this does not require a written order.
4 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay. Are you saying in practice there may
5 be no written order, although legally a written order may be required?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will repeat. There was no
7 written order. To give you an example, Prime Minister Rafik Hariri even
8 in -- even the personal protection or the guards that were protecting his
9 residence, there were orders to reduce the number of staff that were
10 ensuring his protection. I was also witnessing some suspicious movements
11 around my house in Beirut by vehicles from the Lebanese army,
12 Sûreté Générale, et cetera, a way of intimidating me the Lebanese way, if
13 so.
14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: There are two things which I don't
15 understand. I was just asking you firstly if there was a legal
16 requirement that any such order should be in writing. Do you know
17 whether that's the case or not, legally. I'm not talking about what
18 happened in practice. If you don't know, just tell us.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no legal requirement, and
20 I apologize in advance for what I will say, there was no law. We did not
21 have a law that preserved the dignity and the honour of people. It was
22 the law of the jungle. Who was the strongest faction or party in
23 Lebanon? The Syrian intelligence. There is a difference between the law
24 and the operational orders, if you want.
25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And the second point I'm trying to work out
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1 is whether you actually tried to talk to civil servants and you were
2 rebuffed, I think as Mr. Cameron said, you got the cold shoulder. Can
3 you tell us if that actually happened. Let's say, for example, you tried
4 to ring the director-general of some department and the director-general
5 refused to take your calls or said: Mr. Jumblatt, I can't talk to you,
6 or something like that.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we heard about such
8 instructions and that civil servants, director-generals, or military
9 staff from contacting Walid Jumblatt, at the end of the day I am keen to
10 see them keeping their positions because they might be sanctioned,
11 punished, or even prohibited from continuing their work. When we heard
12 about such unethical instruction, I stopped contacting the civil servants
13 I wanted to contact because I was keen on their future and their careers.
14 MR. CAMERON: Would it be permissible for Mr. Chenivesse to
15 absent himself now?
16 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Of course, he doesn't need permission. He
17 can come and go, of course.
18 MR. CAMERON:
19 Q. The next document that I'd like to show you and just briefly
20 is -- appears at positions 37 in the English and 38 in the Arabic of the
21 Prosecution's queue. It is a Press Review issued by the United Nations
22 information centre with an ERN range D0412305 to 2315. The date of the
23 document is the 25th of November, 2004. It - in your decision of the
24 30th of December - was held to be admissible. The next exhibit number is
25 P437.
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1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: It will be Exhibit P437.
2 MR. CAMERON: If the clerk could direct the witness's attention
3 to page 4 of the document with the ERN number D0412308, please.
4 Q. You'll see at the very top of the page: "Kandil's Remarks." The
5 text says:
6 "Pro-Syria MP Nasser Kandil in the meantime lashed out Wednesday
7 at the Christian opposition as well as the Progressive Socialist Party
8 and leftist forces led by Druze overlord Walid Jumblatt who were
9 adamantly opposed to the amendment of the constitution in order to extend
10 the mandate of President Lahoud by another three years, which began on
11 Wednesday, As-Safir reported. He dubbed the anti-Syria Christian parties
12 the 'party of the museum' because of the demonstration they held in the
13 museum area on the occasion of Independence Day, and the PSP-led groups
14 'the party of the ESCWA' due to another protest they staged outside the
15 UN house in down-town Beirut on the same occasion, Kandil accused both
16 parties of treason."
17 Now, this is now into the latter part of November, and we've seen
18 remarks like this in the public reports for some months now. Is there
19 any escalation or not through this period of time as to the intensity of
20 the allegations that are made about you and other members of the
21 opposition by people such as Nasser Kandil?
22 A. You are asking me to review all my statements. I had many
23 statements back then --
24 Q. No, Mr. Jumblatt, I'm not asking you to review your statements
25 and I'm not asking you about your statements. What I'm asking you is
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1 about the statements of others about you. So do you know or not whether
2 during this period of time, stemming from the first sort of allegations
3 through into the beginning of 2005, was there any increase in intensity
4 of the accusations against you? That's all I'm asking.
5 A. Escalation did not stop. It was a daily rhythm of escalation.
6 We were expressing our statements on a daily basis. The confrontation
7 was not a new thing, and here it seems that Mr. Kandil enlarged the scope
8 of his escalation, accused everyone of being a traitor, accused us of
9 being -- of going to the ESCWA. Yes, of course we did. ESCWA
10 represented the whole United Nations, and we were hoping that the
11 United Nations would issue some kind of a statement denouncing the
12 violation of the Lebanese Constitution. This is one of the types of
13 escalations that we saw by the mouthpieces of the Syrian regime.
14 Q. All right.
15 JUDGE LETTIERI: Mr. Cameron, excuse me, sorry.
16 MR. CAMERON: Oh, yes, sorry.
17 JUDGE LETTIERI: Don't you think that we would focus on
18 Mr. Hariri rather than on Mr. Jumblatt? It's the second day that we turn
19 around the extension of the mandate, where we know that Mr. Hariri voted
20 for this extension. Don't you think that it would be better to focus on
21 Mr. Hariri rather than on other members, other politicians?
22 MR. CAMERON: I understand your question, and the purpose of this
23 evidence is to link the kinds of public statements that have been engaged
24 in by Mr. Jumblatt and others, such as Gebran Tueini, members of the
25 opposition group who were very vocal and I think, fair to say, strident
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1 in their criticism of the Syrian regime and the Lahoud regime at a period
2 of time when the Prime Minister was relatively reticent to speak
3 publicly. But to the extent that come December and certainly come
4 February, where he allies himself with Mr. Jumblatt, Mr. Tueini, and all
5 the others in the opposition, that has some evidentiary significance for
6 you as to his adoption of their positions and the manner in which they
7 have given voice to them. So when he says, as we will see in January and
8 February, Walid Jumblatt and I are one, it makes a difference as to what
9 Walid Jumblatt has been saying in the weeks and months leading up to that
10 point in time.
11 JUDGE LETTIERI: Just for this reason, wouldn't it be better to
12 ask for questions focused on the position of Mr. Hariri in the period
13 which begins with his resignation and ends with his death rather than
14 speak in general of the political situation in Lebanon? It's okay,
15 speaking about political situation in Lebanon. But we -- this is a trial
16 for the murder of Hariri, not an analysis of -- a political analysis of a
17 certain period in Lebanon.
18 MR. CAMERON: I understand that, I really do understand that, and
19 I don't know that I can assist you any more in how I'm framing the nature
20 of Mr. Jumblatt's statement, which then effectively become part of
21 Mr. Hariri's position when he joins with the opposition coming up until
22 September the 13th, and then firmly by February the 1st. It's not an
23 analysis of the general political backdrop in Lebanon throughout this
24 period. It's directly related to the positions that the Prime Minister
25 will adopt through his alliance with Mr. Jumblatt. And we've seen that
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1 the Prime Minister gives voice to his position through other witnesses
2 and we've seen this in indirect manners. But the focal point of the
3 significance of the Prime Minister sending Dr. Khoury to the second
4 Bristol Group meeting of the 13th of December can only really be
5 understood against the backdrop of what the members of the Bristol Group
6 meeting were saying.
7 If there's a group that was advocating a certain position while
8 the Prime Minister is quiet and then by December 13th the Prime Minister
9 joins that group indirectly through Ghattas Khoury but in a significant
10 way to send a message to others, it is of enormous significance as to
11 what that group has been saying specifically about the Syrian regime and
12 others in the weeks and months leading up to that point in time because
13 that is the group that the Prime Minister joins.
14 So in my respectful submission, it's directly relevant to the
15 contextual evidence that underlays this case, and as you will see it will
16 become relevant as well to the manner in which the network phones conduct
17 themselves throughout this period. I'm most grateful for your question.
18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And thank you for your explanation.
19 Judge Braidy had a point. She's reaching for her microphone.
20 JUDGE BRAIDY: Mr. Cameron, it would be useful for us to know at
21 each point what is the position of Mr. Hariri because maybe the last
22 position will be different than each position of Mr. Jumblatt. That's
23 why we need you to explore this at each time when you question
24 Mr. Jumblatt.
25 MR. COURCELLE-LABROUSSE: [Interpretation] The Defence would also
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1 have something to say about this.
2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Judge Braidy has asked you to explore with
3 Mr. Jumblatt if there is -- if he knows of Mr. Hariri's position. Were
4 you going to respond to that?
5 MR. CAMERON: Well, if she asks me, I'm happy to do it, of
6 course. As last week, I understood it around the period of the end of
7 October, my last question had focused on what was the joint plan between
8 Mr. Jumblatt and the Prime Minister, whether he was intending to run for
9 the next elections, and the next point at which I thought it would be
10 useful to revisit it would be on around the period just preceding the
11 13th of December leading up to the second Bristol Group.
12 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Courcelle-Labrousse, you said the
13 Defence - I think you mean you - would have something to say about -- you
14 must wait -- one moment.
15 MR. COURCELLE-LABROUSSE: [Interpretation] Yes, of course I was
16 referring to my Defence team, Your Honour.
17 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Judge Braidy's point about Mr. Hariri's
18 position, you had a submission you wished to make on that or not?
19 MR. COURCELLE-LABROUSSE: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly so. The
20 Prosecutor says that all this will become relevant only when we're
21 talking about telephone networks, but I would like to be ahead of the
22 game a bit on this because I would underscore that all this -- well,
23 these political figures that we've been hearing now for months on end
24 now, you know, these political figures, their remarks are not linked by
25 any means to the indictment. And after a year and a half of trial,
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1 Mr. Oneissi's name hasn't cropped up once. And history of Lebanon,
2 witness evidence -- well, let's not go way back to the dawn of time, but
3 pretty much we're almost there, and I'm told that one day all this will
4 be linked into the telephone networks. Fine. But I think we're entitled
5 to know when this link will be established to these telephone networks,
6 will a Prosecution witness will come to talk about one of the accused?
7 For the time being at least, well, the accused names aren't mentioned.
8 We hear about the political life in Lebanon, that's all very well and
9 good, but what about Mr. Oneissi and what about the Prosecution's
10 position and the link that Prosecution is establishing through
11 Mr. Jumblatt's evidence and the indictment? The indictment that he filed
12 against Mr. Oneissi.
13 So I'm just going a bit further than His Honour Judge Lettieri
14 when mention is made of Mr. Hariri all well and good, but after 18 months
15 let's get around to talking about the accused. So ask questions about
16 Mr. Oneissi and tell me what the link is between all that and the
17 indictment. The indictment filed by the Prosecutor. If the Prosecutor
18 wants today to try Mr. Bashar Al-Assad and the Syrian-Lebanese apparatus,
19 well, perhaps he should have thought about that five years ago. We can't
20 do a trial by default within a trial by default through all the evidence
21 tendered through all these witnesses.
22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Courcelle-Labrousse, I think you've been
23 around long enough to know that you've just given us basically a closing
24 submission, where was the evidence against the person I'm representing.
25 The Prosecutor of course will take that on board.
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1 Mr. Cameron, is there anything you wish to say in response to
2 Mr. Courcelle-Labrousse or can we continue with the questioning?
3 MR. CAMERON: I'm happy to continue with the questioning,
4 Your Honour. Thank you.
5 The next document that I'd like to show the witness is -- appears
6 at positions 39 in the English and 40 in the Arabic --
7 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And when I said "continuing with the
8 questioning," I mean of course having considered what Judges Lettieri and
9 Braidy said and in light of your own explanation. That was all.
10 MR. CAMERON: Yes, of course.
11 It is a United Nations Information Centre Press Review dated the
12 2nd of December, 2004. The ERN range is D0410453 through to 458.
13 Similar to the previous documents, this -- that was deemed admissible by
14 the Trial Chamber and the next exhibit number I understand to be P438.
15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: This will be Exhibit P438.
16 MR. CAMERON: Now if I could ask the witness to be shown the page
17 which is 3 and 4, beginning at 3 at ERN D0410455.
18 Q. Under the heading: "Jumblatt and Patriarch Sfeir to Discuss 1559
19 with Chirac." Now the text reads:
20 "Druze MP and head of the Progressive Socialist Party Walid
21 Jumblatt is expected to be warmly welcomed on Friday by French President
22 Jacques Chirac with whom he will discuss the situation in Lebanon as well
23 as UN Security Council Resolution 1559, which was passed in September at
24 the behest of France and the US, An-Nahar reported from Paris Thursday
25 Jumblatt's meeting with Chirac at the Elysée Palace was arranged 15 days
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1 ago but was announced on Tuesday, the same day pro-Syrian demonstrators
2 led by Hezbollah marched into the streets of Beirut to condemn 1559 which
3 called for the withdrawal of Syrian forces from Lebanon. An-Nahar argued
4 that this meeting 'could be seen as a message from France and the
5 European Union as well as the international community to Syria that the
6 opponents of Syria's presence in Lebanon are not isolated but have the
7 backing of the international community during the period stretching to
8 April when the UN Secretary-General should report to the Security Council
9 on the progress of the implementation of 1559.'"
10 Now, there are a number of questions that I'd like to put to you.
11 First of all, did you have discussions with the Prime Minister about the
12 fact that you and Patriarch Sfeir were travelling to France to meet with
13 President Jacques Chirac?
14 A. That's right and we knew -- not knew. At the beginning we agreed
15 with Prime Minister Hariri that our position of principle would be
16 focused on the Taif Agreement. As for the patriarch, I told you that we
17 had a nuanced position from Patriarch Sfeir. Patriarch Sfeir from the
18 year 2000 has been calling for the Syrian withdrawal from Lebanon, an
19 unconditional withdrawal. And I am mentioning this for its political
20 importance and significance because if we go back to Resolution 1559 we
21 never adopted it and approved it, neither me personally nor Rafik Hariri.
22 Some members of the opposition with whom we were allies adopted this
23 resolution and supported it. The patriarch perhaps supported it even
24 before it was adopted or had the similar vision, and this Tribunal has
25 been established for a crime, to investigate a crime that was committed.
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1 Of course, the Defence has the right to defend X and Y, but that doesn't
2 deny the fact that there was a crime that was committed in Lebanon by a
3 group or a state, I don't know. There was a major, horrendous crime that
4 was committed. It was the result of a direct threat from the Syrian
5 president to Rafik Hariri, that Rafik Hariri was collaborating and was
6 behind Resolution 1559 and this is completely untrue.
7 Q. In terms of the Prime Minister's position in respect of the
8 withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon and his general goals for the
9 future of Lebanon, did they change over the period of time from the
10 occasion of his resignation through to the time of his assassination or
11 did they remain relatively constant?
12 A. They remained constant, but since you mentioned President Chirac,
13 when I met President Chirac, I refused, I declared my refusal to
14 Resolution 1559 and reiterated my support for the Taif Agreement. I met
15 him on the 3rd of December, 2004. And back to your question.
16 Six days before the assassination of Rafik Hariri at his
17 residence in Quraitem, there was a discussion about the elections, how --
18 as usual, how we were going to work together and win the elections.
19 However, he said something that drew my attention. He said something
20 important because it seems that there are people when their time
21 comes - and Rafik Hariri was a believer, a Muslim believer, he was a
22 believer - perhaps he had some kind of hunch or inspiration, he told me,
23 "Either they will kill you or they will kill me." He said that on the
24 8th of February, 2005, six days before his assassination, six days before
25 his assassination. This sentence reminds me of the latest - and forgive
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1 me here for digressing - but some members of the Defence also
2 digressed --
3 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: You've recognized yourself you're
4 digressing. The question you were asked was whether Mr. Hariri had
5 changed his position in relation to the withdrawal of Syrian troops, and
6 your answer was they remained constant. I think that was what
7 Mr. Cameron was asking you for.
8 So, Mr. Cameron, your next question.
9 MR. CAMERON:
10 Q. Mr. Jumblatt, we'll come to the area of time around February and
11 focus again, but I'd like to try and work through reasonably methodically
12 the time-frame leading up to that period of time --
13 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Jumblatt --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: -- we all appreciate you've lived through
16 all of these times and experiences and you know an awful lot which you
17 can say, but Mr. Cameron has a case which he's putting before us and your
18 evidence is supposed to go to his case and he's just after certain
19 information. I'm sure you will get most of it out at some point, but if
20 you could please just try and just stick within the parameters of the
21 question in your answer. Thanks.
22 MR. CAMERON:
23 Q. Mr. Jumblatt, before leaving this document there's a reference
24 that I had read to a demonstration led by Hezbollah, a pro-Syrian
25 demonstrators led by Hezbollah marching through the streets of Beirut to
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1 condemn 1559, which called for the withdrawal of Syrian forces from
2 Lebanon.
3 Do you have a recollection of that event led by Hezbollah?
4 A. I remember this event, yes, a big demonstration that condemned
5 Chirac in the streets of Beirut. They said that he was behind Resolution
6 1559. Yes, I do remember. It wasn't a normal event, it was an important
7 event.
8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I just note on the transcript who asked the
9 last question.
10 Mr. Cameron, please continue.
11 MR. CAMERON:
12 Q. What was your understanding of why it was that Hezbollah was
13 leading a demonstration in favour of Syria against Resolution 1559?
14 A. For a simple reason is that Hezbollah was allied with Syria.
15 They were allies in the past, they are allies presently, they have been
16 long-standing allies of Syria, and this demonstration falls in line with
17 the statements that accused us of being traitors, myself and Hariri, and
18 it is also in line with the Syrian policies and statements that said that
19 Rafik Hariri was conspiring against the Syrian nationalist interest.
20 Yes, this is in the same context, in the context of the alliance between
21 Hezbollah and the Syrian regime.
22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Just for the transcript, can I just ask that
23 the -- I appreciate it will be corrected in the revision, but Mr. Cameron
24 actually asked the question at page 89, line 23.
25 Judge Akoum.
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1 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Mr. Jumblatt, when you said in your
2 statement that on the 8th of February the late Rafik Hariri told you that
3 either they will kill you or they will kill me, who were you referring
4 to? Who was going to kill him or you?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Syrians. You interrupted me,
6 but it's your right, of course, to interrupt me, but in the end
7 Rafik Hariri felt -- he had a feeling of this danger, he had a hunch that
8 there was an imminent danger. I said that there are some people when
9 their time comes, especially if they are believers - and Rafik Hariri was
10 a strong believer in God's will - he sensed this danger. Every one of us
11 fears in the face of death. He was afraid, like my father when he
12 returned to Lebanon and knew that his time had come. My father in
13 1975 -- I'm not going to go back to Fakhreddine, just 1975 -- or rather,
14 1977. My father wrote an article in Al-Anba newspaper in which he said:
15 "My father, my God, I testify that I have informed and I have told what I
16 have to say." This is like when Rafik Hariri said, "Either they will
17 kill you or they will kill me." So he was testifying and announcing that
18 he might be dying soon.
19 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: You said in answer to Judge Akoum's question
20 "the Syrians," but that was an answer to the question Mr. Hariri told
21 you, "Either they will kill you or they will kill me."
22 Are you going to explore this with Mr. Jumblatt later,
23 Mr. Cameron?
24 MR. CAMERON: Yes.
25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: We'll come back to it then when Mr. Cameron
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1 gets to it, Mr. Jumblatt.
2 MR. CAMERON: The next document that I would like to show the
3 witness appears at positions 41 in the English and 42 in the Arabic.
4 It's a press release -- sorry, a Press Review issued by the
5 United Nations Information Centre dated the 6th of December, 2004. The
6 ERN range begins at D0410774 and ends at 0781. It's the same category as
7 the last documents and sequentially the next exhibit number would be
8 P439.
9 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: All right, that will be Exhibit P439.
10 MR. CAMERON: And if I could ask the witness to be taken to page
11 5 of the document which is at ERN D0410778, the middle of the document
12 contains the heading: "Massive Rally in Support of Jumblatt on
13 Anniversary of his Father's Birth." And in the second paragraph of that
14 section, the following text appears:
15 "'Don't be afraid of anything. We're no longer alone in the
16 world... What is required is to stand fast,' Jumblatt told the crowd
17 which flocked to Mokhtara from various regions and which included
18 delegations from the broad-based Christian opposition Qornet-Chehwan
19 Gathering, the National Bloc Party of Carlos Edde, and several leftist
20 democratic groups. Jumblatt appeared to be more confident after his
21 Paris visit where he was given France's full support in his bid to defend
22 the Lebanese Constitution and the public freedoms and restore balance to
23 Syrian-Lebanese relations. Jumblatt affirmed that he will stick to the
24 principles of his late father 'in defense of Lebanon's freedoms and
25 enlightened Arab character.'"
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1 Now when you went to France to meet with President Chirac, you
2 had a vision of the staged withdrawal of Syrian troops in accordance with
3 the Taif Accord which was different from Resolution 1559 which had been
4 sponsored by France. Now, what kind of discussions did you have that led
5 you to the conclusion that you could say: Don't be afraid of anything,
6 we're no longer alone in the world.
7 A. It's a well-known political slogan. I do not recall now who said
8 that, but it was a well-known political slogan in order to mobilize the
9 masses and inspire hope and in order to stand and resist, especially that
10 on the 6th of December of every year we meet in Mokhtara and we put a
11 flower on the tomb of Kamal Jumblatt, and this is where we take our force
12 and in that moment we wanted -- in 2004 we wanted even to be stronger for
13 the sake of freedoms and the independence of Lebanon and the Arab nation,
14 not the Arab -- the Arab identity of the Baath regime, which is a killer
15 and criminal regime. But when I met with Chirac, I was very clear that
16 there is a nuance between Resolution 1559 and the Taif Agreement and we,
17 and I allowed to speak on my behalf and on behalf of Prime Minister Rafik
18 Hariri, we are with the Taif Agreement.
19 Q. And when you went to meet with Jacques Chirac, was it to also
20 carry the message of Prime Minister Hariri about your alliance with him
21 in respect of the -- or the common position that you had with
22 Rafik Hariri in respect of the Taif Accord and its governance of the
23 withdrawal of Syrian troops?
24 A. I didn't really need to explain to President Chirac my friendship
25 and my political alliance with Rafik Hariri. Jacques Chirac knew that
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1 very well and he was an old friend of Rafik Hariri. He didn't need me to
2 explain that to him. He knew that very well, but I was keen on saying
3 that this resolution, this international resolution, was not suitable or
4 cannot be implemented, it's impossible to implement it. What we need to
5 implement is the Taif Agreement, the Taif settlement or compromise on
6 which we in 1991. It is a position of principle.
7 MR. CAMERON: All right. The next document I'd like to take the
8 witness to appears at positions 45 in the English and 46 in the Arabic of
9 the Prosecution's presentation queue. It is a Press Review issued by the
10 United Nations Information Centre dated the 13th of December, 2004, and
11 it has an ERN range D0411388 through to 396.
12 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay. That will be Exhibit P440.
13 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Cameron, a copy of those documents usually
14 which I have, they don't have the ERN range numbers, so it's very helpful
15 if you would normally mention the page number.
16 MR. CAMERON: Yes, of course.
17 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: You do it sometimes but not religiously.
18 Thank you.
19 MR. CAMERON: I'll mention it all the time now. Thank you very
20 much. I hadn't realized that.
21 If I could ask the witness to be taken to the second page of this
22 Press Review which is at D0411389.
23 Q. You see in the middle of the page, Mr. Jumblatt: "Largest
24 Opposition Coalition to be Announced Today," and under the Middle East
25 Reporter:
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1 "The largest opposition coalition comprising various political
2 and sectarian groups and factions is expected to be announced later
3 Monday at the Bristol Hotel through the declaration of the joint
4 opposition document which An-Nahar described as 'historic' and the most
5 significant since the guns of the civil war were silenced 14 years ago."
6 Is that a fair reflection of how the Bristol Group was coming to
7 be viewed in Lebanon during this period now up to mid-December?
8 A. I think we're going to get lost in the Bristol. This was a
9 historic meeting. It's a historic meeting because at last Rafik Hariri
10 was officially represented in the Bristol Gathering. It was a historic
11 meeting because a large part of the Lebanese political spectrum was
12 represented, a part that is saying no to Lahoud, no to the tutelage, no
13 to the Syrian occupation. That was a historic moment. And here, from
14 what I can understand, General Michel Aoun was in exile. We should not
15 forget that he was in exile and we shouldn't forget also that there was
16 another politician who was in prison, Samir Geagea, and his party was
17 banned. It was prohibited at the time. But yes, this was a historic
18 meeting.
19 Q. And over at the second page -- the third page of the document
20 there's a title saying: "Jumblatt Assured by Syria and State Over his
21 Personal Security Responds: There will be no Compromise on Political
22 Principles." And in the middle of the paragraph it says, first
23 paragraph:
24 "Jumblatt was contacted by the chief of Syrian military
25 intelligence in Lebanon, Brigadier-General Rustom Ghazaleh and the
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1 director-general of the Sûreté Générale Major-General Jamil Sayyed
2 assuring him that his personal safety and that of his family ... was
3 ensured and a priority concern for the state."
4 Do you remember this period of time and the contact between you
5 and Rustom Ghazaleh on the issue of your personal security?
6 A. I do not remember this topic, and I could have lived without the
7 reassurances of the Syrian intelligence regarding my own personal
8 security, especially on the attempt of Marwan Hamade's life. I do not
9 remember any call in this context from Rustom Ghazaleh or the other
10 person who is mentioned in this article. It was useless for them to call
11 us and to reassure us, especially after the attempt on Mr. Hamade's life
12 and the ensuing threats.
13 MR. CAMERON: I'd like to bring up now the video of the Bristol
14 Group meeting which is at position 91 of the Prosecution's presentation
15 queue and is Exhibit P365. If we could begin at 39.38 of the timing,
16 please.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MR. CAMERON:
19 Q. You're arriving by car and this is at the Bristol Hotel on the
20 13th of December, 2004, dressed a little differently than the first time
21 around you see.
22 A. Yes, sometimes I dress in a formal suit.
23 Q. And you sit between two individuals, and do you recall who they
24 are, sir? Just pausing there for a moment.
25 A. To my left MP Emile Boustani, late MP Boustani who was also a
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1 member of the National Struggle Front. So MP Elie Aoun and MP Nehme
2 Tohme --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Witness corrects:
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nabil Boustani and also Elie Aoun
5 and Nehme Tohme members of the Democratic Gathering.
6 Q. We've just paused at the time-stamp of 40.24, and if we could
7 continue along another 15 seconds or so, Mr. Clerk. Now stop it there,
8 please. What time is that, Mr. Clerk? So at 40.32, is that Dr. Khoury
9 that we see on the left-hand side of the screen?
10 A. Ghattas Khoury and Carlos Edde, yes, I can see Ghattas Khoury,
11 the representative of Mr. Hariri. This is MP Ghattas Khoury. And also
12 Mr. Toufiq Hindi sitting in the middle, he's a Lebanese politician.
13 Q. Now, what did it mean to the public watching this, what did it
14 signify that Dr. Khoury had attended the second Bristol Group meeting?
15 A. It meant the beginning of the change in position of Prime
16 Minister Hariri, that is, joining the ranks of the Lebanese national
17 opposition, the opposition who was calling for ending the Syrian tutelage
18 and for the withdrawal of the Syrian troops from Lebanon.
19 Q. Was it really a change in actual position of the Prime Minister
20 or was it a change in his willingness to signal to the public that this
21 was his position?
22 A. This was the genuine position of Rafik Hariri, the original
23 position of Rafik Hariri, and we should always remember his initial
24 position; that is, he was opposed to the extension of Mr. Lahoud's term.
25 He was compelled to endorse the extension of Mr. Lahoud's term based on
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1 my advice and because he was afraid of any security problems. His
2 fundamental position was to implement the Taif Agreement.
3 Q. Can you tell me why it was that notwithstanding the constancy of
4 his position throughout the months of September, October, and November,
5 why it was that he kept that position somewhat veiled, in distinction to
6 your vocalization, but on the 13th of December he had reached the stage
7 where he was willing to publicly ally himself with the Bristol Group?
8 What changed for the Prime Minister that led him to the point where he
9 was willing to signal to the public: I am with the Bristol Group?
10 A. Nothing changed in the foundation of his position. He was always
11 opposed to the extension of the presidential term. He did not succeed.
12 He was compelled to approve the amendment and the extension of the term.
13 He received a message, that is, the attempt on Marwan Hamade's life. He
14 thought thoroughly about that and said that we have hinted at that and we
15 have no other choice but to join the opposition officially, publicly, in
16 order to allow for a wider opposition and a more representative one.
17 This is my opinion, my analysis.
18 Q. Now, my question was based on the constancy of the
19 Prime Minister's position which you've again described, but the
20 distinguishing feature between, say, mid-November and now mid-December
21 appears to be a realization - if I heard you correctly, a realization by
22 the Prime Minister that this is the next necessary and logical step and
23 there is no other. Is that a fair characterization of your understanding
24 of his position?
25 A. Yes, this is a fair representation of my understanding and this
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1 can be explained by the fact that he officially aligned himself with the
2 opposition. And later during the third Bristol Group meeting, he would
3 send his also ally Mr. Bassel Fuleihan who was killed also in the
4 assassination.
5 MR. CAMERON: I'd like to move to time-stamp 43.35, please.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MR. CAMERON: Now, just stopping there, please.
8 Q. We see in this image you standing -- you moved from your previous
9 seat now and you're standing next to former President Amine Gemayel.
10 Now, throughout the civil war your relationship with the former with the
11 was a difficult one, if I can use that term. And, in fact, you were an
12 opposing combatant of the groups that he led; is that fair to say?
13 A. Unfortunately, we fought each other as various Lebanese
14 communities for other people's interests, and as it was said by the
15 famous article of Ghassan Tueini: It was other people's war on our own
16 territory. Unfortunately, this is what happened.
17 Q. Now, when you say you fought with each other, it was not a
18 political fight; blood was spilled. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes, the history of the Lebanese war is a long history of
20 tragedies, of political options, hard and difficult political choices,
21 but who paid the price? We as Lebanese paid the price. The neighbouring
22 countries did not pay any price. They used us as Lebanese as a tool for
23 their war.
24 Q. But notwithstanding your past conflict, by September the 13th you
25 were able to stand next to former President Gemayel as fellow members of
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1 the Bristol Group?
2 A. Yes, that is correct. But I said earlier that Amine Gemayel
3 visited Mokhtara in the year 2000. That was prior to 2004. He came to
4 Mokhtara in 2000. This was not a new meeting, a novelty. It was a
5 continuation to the reconciliation between our two parties in Mokhtara.
6 Q. And as a continuation of the reconciliation, did you purposefully
7 stand beside Amine Gemayel for symbolic effect?
8 A. Of course it is highly symbolic. Walid Jumblatt, Amine Gemayel
9 who used to be foes at war, in this picture we see a bigger picture and a
10 symbol sent to all of the Lebanese people.
11 Q. Now, by this time had the discussion between which model to be
12 adopted for Syrian withdrawal been resolved in the Bristol Gathering;
13 that is, the Patriarch Sfeir model of complete withdrawal in accordance
14 with Resolution 1559 and your model shared by the Prime Minister which
15 was for a staged withdrawal? Had you come to a common agreement as to
16 what the united opposition would adopt by the second Bristol Group
17 meeting?
18 A. During the second Bristol Group meeting, we did not reach a
19 unanimous decision. We were engaging in discussions, in talks. Some
20 approved of Resolution 1559, whereas we approved or called for the
21 implementation of the Taif Agreement. The common statement or
22 declaration was reached during the third Bristol Group meeting that was
23 held in -- on the 29th of January, 2003 [sic]. This is when we reached a
24 united position regarding Resolution 1559 and the implementation of Taif.
25 MR. CAMERON: The next document that I'd like to show the witness
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1 appears at position 47 in the English version and 48 in the Arabic
2 version. It is a Press Review issued by the United Nations Information
3 Centre dated the 14th of December, 2004, in an ERN range of D0411481
4 through to D0411489. It has the same provenance as the other series of
5 documents and I understand the next exhibit number to be P441.
6 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: There appears to be a problem with the
7 transcript, it's going very, very slowly. I'm just asking our court
8 reporter if you're still recording and -- so we have to wait until the
9 words stop. Okay.
10 It will be Exhibit P441, but I just have a question for
11 Mr. Jumblatt based upon the last one which was the participation of
12 ex-President Gemayel. What was the significance of his involvement as a
13 participant in the Bristol Group?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He is the leader of a historic
15 party in Lebanon, the Phalangist, a party that was founded in the 1930s.
16 Along with other Christian leaders, he is representative of the Christian
17 community in Lebanon. In the light of some regional and international
18 circumstances, unfortunately we fought wars against each other between
19 the Phalangist and the PSP, between Christians and Muslims, between Druze
20 and Christians, et cetera. That's why this picture is highly symbolic.
21 We sent a message saying that from now on Christians and Muslims in
22 Lebanon will not disagree.
23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And was there any symbolic or real
24 significance in that in the eyes of the Syrians as far as you're
25 concerned; and if so, what was it?
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1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, of course, because the
2 Syrian politics was based on the principle of divide and conquer. Of
3 course when the Lebanon agree on preserving their interests and the
4 interests of Lebanon first, of course this will upset the Syrian regime.
5 JUDGE AKOUM: Before you start.
6 [Interpretation] You said on the 29th of January there was a
7 unified position and statement made by the opposition regarding the
8 Syrian withdrawal. What was this position, what was this statement? Was
9 it closer to the Taif Agreement or closer to Resolution 1559?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you would allow --
11 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] I think there is a problem with the
12 transcript.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because since we are discussing the
14 second and third Bristol Gathering, as I mentioned, we had different
15 opinions regarding Resolution 1559. We set up the following statement.
16 We said: Lifting the Syrian hegemony over Lebanon and recovering our
17 independence and sovereignty and re-establishing the Lebanese authority
18 on the basis of the power given to the people, the opposition also
19 recognizes the importance of finding an honourable settlement with Syria
20 on the basis of a full withdrawal of the Syrian army from Lebanon
21 pursuant to the Taif Agreement in order to put an end to the dangerous
22 crisis that started between the Lebanese authority and the international
23 legitimacy after the adoption of Resolution 1559. So we gave the
24 priority -- in this political statement that was issued by all of the
25 opposition, we gave the priority to the Taif Agreement. At a later
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1 stage, of course we needed to think about the best way to deal with that,
2 the best way to neutralize the effects of Resolution 1559. So this is
3 Bristol 3. We gave the priority to the Taif in that meeting.
4 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I just need to ask the court reporter.
6 The message back from the court reporter is keep speaking. It's
7 just going slowly on the screen but she's recording -- sorry, she's
8 writing everything.
9 Judge Braidy has a question, Mr. Cameron.
10 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] You just said neutralize the
11 effects and impact of Resolution 1559. What do you mean by that? Do you
12 mean that you wanted it to be an internal matter, a domestic matter, for
13 internal and domestic discussion? What do you mean by "neutralize" the
14 impact of Resolution 1559?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How can we neutralize the impact of
16 Resolution 1559 and it is a United Nations Security Council Resolution?
17 But that was our opinion as Lebanese, that this is a resolution that is
18 not suitable for Lebanon, especially when it comes to the disarmament and
19 disbanding of the militias, the Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias. This
20 is something that cannot be done without an internal consensus and
21 agreement. We have no illusions. We didn't think for a second that we
22 had the force or the will to enter in a confrontation with our partners,
23 our co-citizens.
24 But later on in 2005, the priority was for the Syrian withdrawal.
25 And at some point the Taif Agreement meets Resolution 1559 on one article
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1 only and that is the Syrian withdrawal, but our interpretation of Taif
2 differs with the interpretation given by the United Nations through
3 Resolution 1559. They called for a full and complete withdrawal. We
4 talked about a gradual withdrawal and then a discussion between the
5 Syrian and the Lebanese authorities in order to achieve a full and
6 complete withdrawal.
7 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Was that the position -- the clear
8 position of Prime Minister Hariri regarding that second article of
9 Resolution 1559?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right. Rafik Hariri never
11 discussed, directly or indirectly, the issue of the arms of the
12 resistance. Rafik Hariri was an Arab nationalist and he was brought up
13 convinced of the necessity to fight Israel and the crimes it committed
14 against the Palestinian people. He believed in the Palestinian cause and
15 he believed in the necessity of establishing two states. We were not
16 giving theories only about liberating Palestine, but Rafik Hariri was
17 brought up believing in this idea. This is why he looked at this
18 article, the article related to the disarmament and disbanding, and he
19 considered it to be unacceptable and impossible. Because we needed to
20 include another partner with us in Lebanon and that is the resistance and
21 Hezbollah.
22 MR. CAMERON: Returning to Exhibit P441, I'd like to take you to
23 page 2 at ERN D0411482.
24 Q. And without reading the setup from the previous page, you are
25 giving a speech on the 13th or the 14th. The importance that I want to
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1 ask you about is in the paragraph beginning:
2 "Jumblatt ended his speech by vowing that he will stick to the
3 opposition front and remain a part of it. 'I will not step out of this
4 gathering. I insist on staying within ... I also stress on my personal
5 and political relations with (former Prime Minister) Rafik Hariri,' he
6 added."
7 Now, do you know why -- was the kind of -- this kind of public
8 statement your expression of solidarity with the former Prime Minister
9 the other side of the coin of the Prime Minister sending Dr. Khoury to
10 Bristol 2?
11 A. I'm sorry, I did not understand the question.
12 Q. All right. You indicated that at the Bristol 2 Gathering in
13 December the 13th, the Prime Minister Hariri was sending a message that
14 he was allying himself with your group, the Bristol Group, by sending
15 Dr. Khoury. After the meeting you made a particular point of stressing,
16 as you put it, personal and political relations with former
17 Prime Minister Rafik Hariri. Was that your way of signalling to the
18 public that you were with the Prime Minister in the same manner as he had
19 signalled in a different way through Dr. Khoury that he was with you?
20 A. It's to consecrate the alliance, politically. And in the media,
21 every minute we were reiterating that we were one, Rafik Hariri and I.
22 MR. CAMERON: The next document I'd like to take you to is at
23 position 7 in the Arabic and 8 in the English translation. This is one
24 of those documents that was admitted under Exhibit P303. It's a press
25 release dated the 24th of December, 2004, with an ERN range of a single
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1 page D0004904. Unlike other press releases, there is no indication of
2 when it was published, but it should receive its own exhibit number in
3 accordance with the practice that we've now adopted with respect to the
4 cumulative exhibits under 303.
5 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I've been told we should reconnect. I've
6 done that, but it doesn't appear to be working. It is indeed working.
7 All right.
8 Okay. This is a good place to stop this afternoon. We'll come
9 to the document tomorrow. We'll start again tomorrow morning at 9.30 and
10 on Thursday as well. So the court is adjourned until 9.30 tomorrow.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.16 p.m.
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