SOHP Series: The Republican Party

TAPE LOG - R. E. CARTER WRENN

Interviewee: R. E. CARTER WRENN

Interviewer: Joseph Mosnier

Interview Date: Friday, Oct. 4, 1996

Location: Offices of the National Conservative Club, Youngsville, NC

Tape No.: 10.4.96-CW.l (cassette 1 of 2) 10.4.96-CW.2 (cassette 2 of 2) (approximate total length 155 minutes) **NB: This is the second of two sessions; see also the first session of Sept. 27, 1996, which includes discussion of matters through the late 1970s.

Topic: Through his work as longtime Executive Director of the Congressional Club, Wrenn has been an important figure in NC (and national) conservative Republican politics for some twenty years, having joined the then-fledgling Club in 1974. Wrenn was born June 30,1952, in Danville, VA. He graduated from public high school in Durham, NC (1970); and attended the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (1970-74; Wrenn did not receive a degree), where he studied history. In 1974, he accepted a job offer from Club founder Tom Ellis, and has remained with the Club ever since. The Club has served as the main fundraising and campaign management vehicle of until 1994, when the Club and Helms parted ways (and at which point the Club was rechristened the 'National Conservative Club'). As the Club's executive director, Wrenn has played a key role in implementing Ellis' conservative ideological agenda through its execution of various political campaigns including, most notably, Helms' U.S. Senate races in 1978,1984, and 1990. With its direct mail expertise and vast mailing list of conservative donors, since the mid-1970s the Club has raised on the order of $100 million (perhaps forty percent of which was consumed internally in the effort to raise funds). Substantively, the interview was organized around several major issues: the 1978 Helms Senate race; the Club's influence on and relationship with the NC Republican Party in the late 1970s and 1980s; Jesse Helms; the 1980 John East Senate victory; me 1984 Helms-Jim Hunt Senate race; developments in North Carolina politics since the late 1970s, and the Republican Party's growing strength; Jim Hunt; his and the Club's ideological views; the 1990 Helms-Gantt Senate race; the Club in the 1990s; the 1994 split between Helms and the Club; campaign tactics and the use of television and radio advertisements in political races over the years. These and other related issues are discussed in considerable detail. As with all interviews I have done for this series, I attempt to explore, through the lens of the interviewee's particular range of experiences, the

Interview number A-0423 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill. Restriction: Permission of interviewee required to read, listen to, or quote from interview. * "N.C. Republican Party" » Tape Index, Carter Wrenn Interview, Oct. 4,1996 2

overarching theme of political dealignment/realignment in NC party politics in recent decades.

Subject Headings: North Carolina Republican Party; Congressional Club; North Carolina Politics & Government; Tom Ellis; Jesse Helms; John East; Jim Martin.

Comments: Only text in quotation marks is verbatim; all other text is paraphrased, including the interviewer's questions.

TAPE INDEX

Counter Index Topic

[Cassette 1 of 2, Side A - Tape No. 10.4.96-CW.l]

001 [Opening announcement]

006 How it became clear during the summer of 1978 in the Helms Senate campaign that the power of TV and radio ads was rapidly rendering traditional campaign organizations and tactics obsolete. These new means made it possible for campaigns to go directly to voters with information, or "message," about politics and candidates. Events of 1978 proved definitively that "campaigns in the future had to change how they were structured and how they spent their money radically" to be successful.

074 Details of the relationship between the Congressional Club and the NC GOP in the late 1970s; how the structure of the NC GOP, such as it was, was not particularly relevant to the Club's efforts to elect its candidates; but the Party was allowed by law to do certain things (spend money on voter turnout efforts, for example) so the Club was happy to join efforts with the Party to gain the advantages of such Party activity. After Jim Martin's election as governor in 1985, the Club lost its close control over the Party, and for two years relations between the two were poor.

114 How Gov. Jim Martin and the Club worked out the selection of NC GOP chairs in the late 1980s. The Club was mostly pleased with Jack Hawke's tenure as chair after 1987.

139 Sketch of Jesse Helms. Three factors at the core of Helms: "I think Jesse is a true believer" in the conservative cause; "he's smart"; and he has a "prideful" aspect to his personality that enjoys the status and sense of approval conveyed by his position.

162 The Tom Ellis-Jesse Helms relationship - they were peers, above all; Helms saw the wisdom of giving Ellis complete control over campaigns (hiring, strategy,

Interview number A-0423 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill. Restriction: Permission of interviewee required to read, listen to, or quote from interview. "N.C. Republican Party" - Tape Index, Carter Wrenn Interview, Oct. 4,1996 3

ads, etc.), and "Jesse did so with Tom Ellis" although Jesse "was not uninvolved with the campaigns."

202 The biggest Helms-Ellis disagreement concerned Helms' 1984 vote on a tax plan; Ellis saw this vote as an ideological error. Occasionally Helms had to be encouraged by Ellis to abandon the collegia! style of the Senate for a more aggressive approach to the Club's opponents.

250 Usually, the Club did not have to struggle with the issue of remaining ideologically true while executing the pragmatic details of their campaigns. Exceptions of a sort included the issues of Social Security and, during the 1990 Helms-Gantt Senate race, abortion.

315 The Club's relationship with I. Beverly Lake during the 1980 gubernatorial campaign; Lake was a strong conservative who had taken many positions the Club liked, but in the end he couldn't raise enough money to combat Jim Hunt with much effectiveness, in part because Lake was, like most politicians, an enthusiastic fundraiser. Post-election grumblings by Lake about the Club's handling of his campaign.

412 Details of the 1984 Helms-Hunt race. Key memory: how Helms nearly declined to run for re-election when an early poll showed that he trailed by twenty points and Arthur Finkelstein, his pollster, told Helms he probably would not beat Jim Hunt, but how the Club managed to close the gap with a "full out" advertising barrage in June 1984. Public reaction to ads by both camps. How Hunt "outdebated Helms a lot" in the first debate.

532 The Club's relationship with Jim Martin over the years, which improved dramatically in the years after 1984 when the Club tried to find a more conservative candidate to run against Martin in the primary. How the Martin camp did not want to become defined as close to Helms, but rather wanted to position Martin as a different sort of Republican who, while he had roots in the moderate camp, could appeal to many conservative Republicans also. "I think [Martin] did come to symbolize the Republican Party in this state in the late 1980s, and it was a little different Republican Party from where we started out going." How Martin was able to appeal to suburban Republicans in a way Helms never could.

635 [End of Side A.]

[Cassette 1 of 2, Side B -- Tape No. 10.4.96-CW.l]

001 [Opening announcement.]

010 Further discussion of the 1984 Helms-Hunt race - explanation of Helms' reluctance to run initially when the polls showed him so far behind.

Interview number A-0423 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill. Restriction: Permission of interviewee required to read, listen to, or quote from interview. " "N.C. Republican Party" ~ Tape Index, Carter Wrenn Interview, Oct. 4,1996 4

025 Details of how a campaign can borrow money, or otherwise manage its cash to its advantage when in a pinch. The willingness to go into debt if the debt could be covered by further fundraising after the election; this was used in the 1984 race against Hunt, where Helms was $2 million in debt at the time of the election.

063 How and why the Club's relationship with Jim Martin improved over the years; one key event was Martin's effort to reach out to the conservative wing after the 1986 election cycle, when Jim Broyhill had refused to reach out to the conservative wing of the party after the Club opposed him in the GOP Senate primary. In particular, Martin offered a "gesture of goodwill" to the Club when he offered in 1987 to rotate state GOP campaign chairs in subsequent years; after that, the Club and Martin continued to increase their ties. The relationship was further improved by Martin's support in 1990 for Helms, as well as in 1992, when the both the Martin moderates and the Club united behind Lauch Faircloth in the Senate race.

190 Occasions in the 1980s when the Club failed in its efforts to elect candidates: the 1982 Congressional races in NC, "a year the locusts ate" when the political tides ran strongly against the GOP; details of the Bill Cobey-Dce Andrews Congressional race, when the Club decided not to "go negative" and probably lost the race as a result.

257 Reasons why the NC press disliked the Club.

277 The Club never lost faith in the prospects for the conservative movement even during some tough times in the mid-1980s.

310 Details of the complaint filed by Rep. Charlie Rose against the Club , and how the Club handled the subsequent investigation and finally settled in 1986.

360 The Club's effort in 1988 to find a more conservative candidate than George Bush in the GOP presidential race; how they resolved on Jack Kemp.

390 The Club's view of political redistricting for the purpose of creating majority- minority districts; how Wrenn and the Club thought such an effort violated principle, but the state Republican Party leadership saw an opportunity to gain ground overall when minority voters were lumped in a small number of districts. "I think there is no doubt" that redistricting has helped the GOP elect its candidates, but at long term risk to the Party's reputation because there is something "inherently wrong" and profoundly undemocratic in such redistricting schemes.

495 Discussion of key ideological positions held by the Club: in the three categories - "foreign policy, which was anti-communism; economics, which basically boiled down to government; and values, which basically boiled down to the families" - all had a "common taproot in Christian values and belief in the individual and that the rights of the individual and the freedom of the individual should be supreme, with the understanding that that is within the umbrella of Christian ethics." The oppositions between the role of government and the responsibilties and rights of

Interview number A-0423 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill. Restriction: Permission of interviewee required to read, listen to, or quote from interview. " "N.C. Republican Party" ~ Tape Index, Carter Wrenn Interview, Oct. 4,1996 5

the individual, between Christian and secular values, and between communism and free enterprise. The impact of the fall of the Berlin Wall. "Government is not the solution to the racial problems in this country," and "quotas" only create ill will and "more injustice."

597 The issues related to extending a political agenda resting on Christian values in a secular democracy requires "tolerance"; there has been some regrettable "arrogance" on the part of Christian conservatives, and it has hurt the political fortunes of the conservative movement by turning off other voters.

642 [End of Side B of Cassette 1.]

Counter Index Topic

[Cassette 2 of 2, Side A - Tape No. 10.4.96-CW.2]

001 [Opening announcement.]

007 Further discussion of the necessity and appropriateness of "tolerance"; several examples, including the occasion in 1990 when voters responded negatively to a Helms ad on public support for controversial art that caused Helms to appear intolerant.

055 Abortion as a further example of the danger of being perceived as blindly intolerant of the views of others.

076 Discussion of the issue of gay rights, particularly in light of press reports (of Sept. 1996) that Arthur Finkelstein, the Club's longtime pollster, is gay. As a Christian, Wrenn's personal position is that homosexuality is wrong; politically, he does not endorse government use of informal quotas on behalf of gays; and sees gays as persons who, like others, have sinful parts of their lives that hopefully they can overcome.

107 The issue of race, and how it has played out in the years he has been active with the Club. "Race is always an issue. You can dress it up any way you want to, ...but race is an issue in politics. ...It's always there." Because "we've messed up race relations so thoroughly" with "all the good intentions in the world" based on the idea that "government and law could solve racial problems," and the result has been "an absolute disaster." A spiritual rebirth on the part of individuals will be necessary to make significant gains on the racial front. How and why race will be a factor in the 1996 Helms-Gantt race.

184 Women in politics. "I think it's easier to be a woman candidate than a black candidate." How we are at the end of a phase in politics marked by a sharp polarization of women in favor of the Democratic Party (the "gender gap"). How he does not fully understand all the reasons for this polarization, "but it is real."

Interview number A-0423 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill. Restriction: Permission of interviewee required to read, listen to, or quote from interview. ' "N.C. Republican Party" - Tape Index, Carter Wrenn Interview, Oct. 4,1996 6

255 Money and its impact and proper role in politics. More spending produces a better informed electorate and increases turnout, and "I would encourage the spending of more money in political campaigns." Were the government to do this, insurmountable problems would arise; Wrenn prefers the elimination of all hmits on spending and contributions, coupled with strict disclosure requirements to regulate against abuse.

335 The character of the Club's donor base over the years has generally remained quite constant (persons over 55 years of age), though more persons 40 to 55 years of age are now donating.

373 The Club's effort over the years to recruit good conservative candidates, including promising young persons, who are true to the conservative cause. "You look for the things you would look for in a rector of a church": character and intelligence, and as well as the capacity to absorb criticism and competetive battling without great cost.

447 How the electorate's receptivity to pohtical ads has changed; three broad phases in such ads: the "hearts and flowers" "schmaltz" phase, beginning with John Kennedy; the negative phase of "bombs and daggers" persisting into the early 1990s; and a dawning "comparative phase" where a more sophisticated electorate will demand information above all. Ads with a large emotional content don't work so well now.

534 The 1994 split between Helms and the Club, which resulted not from an ideological falling out but a personal one, and which also has diminished historical significance because of Helms age. While Helms has played a leading role in the conservative movement, "there's a new generation on the stage now" and whether he wins or loses is now much less significant to the movement's fortunes.

577 Specific details of the falling out, which stemmed in part from a longstanding tension related between Ellis and Helms over the latter's resistance to Ellis' demands that Helms campaign and labor to raise money, but more immediately from the firing of Helms' daughter from her job as principal of an Episcopal school where Ellis and Wrenn were key officers.

640 [End of Side A of Cassette 2.]

[Cassette 2 of 2, Side B - Tape No. 10.4.96-CW.2]

001 [Opening announcement.]

004 Discussion of the 1994 falling out between Helms and the Club, cont'd. How Helms probably would not have chosen to run again in 1996 but for his elevation to the Chairmanship of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Details of the

Interview number A-0423 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill. Restriction: Permission of interviewee required to read, listen to, or quote from interview. * "N.C. Republican Party" - Tape Index, Carter Wrenn Interview, Oct. 4,1996 7

events surrounding the firing of Helms' daughter at the church school; Wrenn supported the decision made by the church, which he viewed as the only viable one and which reflected Tom Ellis' longstanding practice of not sacrificing principle to expediency.

158 Wrenn began his political work in the early 1970s when conservatism was ascendant; but now, he thinks, a new age of advantage for the Democrats may be dawning, particularly since he sees real power in the "New Democrat" message of Bill Clinton. Though Clinton's position is riven with internal contradictions, it nevertheless may emerge as a politically viable "new paradigm."

268 [End of Side A of Cassette 2 of 2; Side B is blank. End of interview.]

Interview number A-0423 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill. Restriction: Permission of interviewee required to read, listen to, or quote from interview.