SOHP Series: The North Carolina Republican Party TAPE LOG - R. E. CARTER WRENN Interviewee: R. E. CARTER WRENN Interviewer: Joseph Mosnier Interview Date: Friday, Oct. 4, 1996 Location: Offices of the National Conservative Club, Youngsville, NC Tape No.: 10.4.96-CW.l (cassette 1 of 2) 10.4.96-CW.2 (cassette 2 of 2) (approximate total length 155 minutes) **NB: This is the second of two sessions; see also the first session of Sept. 27, 1996, which includes discussion of matters through the late 1970s. Topic: Through his work as longtime Executive Director of the Congressional Club, Wrenn has been an important figure in NC (and national) conservative Republican politics for some twenty years, having joined the then-fledgling Club in 1974. Wrenn was born June 30,1952, in Danville, VA. He graduated from public high school in Durham, NC (1970); and attended the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (1970-74; Wrenn did not receive a degree), where he studied history. In 1974, he accepted a job offer from Club founder Tom Ellis, and has remained with the Club ever since. The Club has served as the main fundraising and campaign management vehicle of Jesse Helms until 1994, when the Club and Helms parted ways (and at which point the Club was rechristened the 'National Conservative Club'). As the Club's executive director, Wrenn has played a key role in implementing Ellis' conservative ideological agenda through its execution of various political campaigns including, most notably, Helms' U.S. Senate races in 1978,1984, and 1990. With its direct mail expertise and vast mailing list of conservative donors, since the mid-1970s the Club has raised on the order of $100 million (perhaps forty percent of which was consumed internally in the effort to raise funds). Substantively, the interview was organized around several major issues: the 1978 Helms Senate race; the Club's influence on and relationship with the NC Republican Party in the late 1970s and 1980s; Jesse Helms; the 1980 John East Senate victory; me 1984 Helms-Jim Hunt Senate race; developments in North Carolina politics since the late 1970s, and the Republican Party's growing strength; Jim Hunt; his and the Club's ideological views; the 1990 Helms-Gantt Senate race; the Club in the 1990s; the 1994 split between Helms and the Club; campaign tactics and the use of television and radio advertisements in political races over the years. These and other related issues are discussed in considerable detail. As with all interviews I have done for this series, I attempt to explore, through the lens of the interviewee's particular range of experiences, the Interview number A-0423 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill. Restriction: Permission of interviewee required to read, listen to, or quote from interview. * "N.C. Republican Party" » Tape Index, Carter Wrenn Interview, Oct. 4,1996 2 overarching theme of political dealignment/realignment in NC party politics in recent decades. Subject Headings: North Carolina Republican Party; Congressional Club; North Carolina Politics & Government; Tom Ellis; Jesse Helms; John East; Jim Martin. Comments: Only text in quotation marks is verbatim; all other text is paraphrased, including the interviewer's questions. TAPE INDEX Counter Index Topic [Cassette 1 of 2, Side A - Tape No. 10.4.96-CW.l] 001 [Opening announcement] 006 How it became clear during the summer of 1978 in the Helms Senate campaign that the power of TV and radio ads was rapidly rendering traditional campaign organizations and tactics obsolete. These new means made it possible for campaigns to go directly to voters with information, or "message," about politics and candidates. Events of 1978 proved definitively that "campaigns in the future had to change how they were structured and how they spent their money radically" to be successful. 074 Details of the relationship between the Congressional Club and the NC GOP in the late 1970s; how the structure of the NC GOP, such as it was, was not particularly relevant to the Club's efforts to elect its candidates; but the Party was allowed by law to do certain things (spend money on voter turnout efforts, for example) so the Club was happy to join efforts with the Party to gain the advantages of such Party activity. After Jim Martin's election as governor in 1985, the Club lost its close control over the Party, and for two years relations between the two were poor. 114 How Gov. Jim Martin and the Club worked out the selection of NC GOP chairs in the late 1980s. The Club was mostly pleased with Jack Hawke's tenure as chair after 1987. 139 Sketch of Jesse Helms. Three factors at the core of Helms: "I think Jesse is a true believer" in the conservative cause; "he's smart"; and he has a "prideful" aspect to his personality that enjoys the status and sense of approval conveyed by his position. 162 The Tom Ellis-Jesse Helms relationship - they were peers, above all; Helms saw the wisdom of giving Ellis complete control over campaigns (hiring, strategy, Interview number A-0423 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill. Restriction: Permission of interviewee required to read, listen to, or quote from interview. "N.C. Republican Party" - Tape Index, Carter Wrenn Interview, Oct. 4,1996 3 ads, etc.), and "Jesse did so with Tom Ellis" although Jesse "was not uninvolved with the campaigns." 202 The biggest Helms-Ellis disagreement concerned Helms' 1984 vote on a tax plan; Ellis saw this vote as an ideological error. Occasionally Helms had to be encouraged by Ellis to abandon the collegia! style of the Senate for a more aggressive approach to the Club's opponents. 250 Usually, the Club did not have to struggle with the issue of remaining ideologically true while executing the pragmatic details of their campaigns. Exceptions of a sort included the issues of Social Security and, during the 1990 Helms-Gantt Senate race, abortion. 315 The Club's relationship with I. Beverly Lake during the 1980 gubernatorial campaign; Lake was a strong conservative who had taken many positions the Club liked, but in the end he couldn't raise enough money to combat Jim Hunt with much effectiveness, in part because Lake was, like most politicians, an enthusiastic fundraiser. Post-election grumblings by Lake about the Club's handling of his campaign. 412 Details of the 1984 Helms-Hunt race. Key memory: how Helms nearly declined to run for re-election when an early poll showed that he trailed by twenty points and Arthur Finkelstein, his pollster, told Helms he probably would not beat Jim Hunt, but how the Club managed to close the gap with a "full out" advertising barrage in June 1984. Public reaction to ads by both camps. How Hunt "outdebated Helms a lot" in the first debate. 532 The Club's relationship with Jim Martin over the years, which improved dramatically in the years after 1984 when the Club tried to find a more conservative candidate to run against Martin in the primary. How the Martin camp did not want to become defined as close to Helms, but rather wanted to position Martin as a different sort of Republican who, while he had roots in the moderate camp, could appeal to many conservative Republicans also. "I think [Martin] did come to symbolize the Republican Party in this state in the late 1980s, and it was a little different Republican Party from where we started out going." How Martin was able to appeal to suburban Republicans in a way Helms never could. 635 [End of Side A.] [Cassette 1 of 2, Side B -- Tape No. 10.4.96-CW.l] 001 [Opening announcement.] 010 Further discussion of the 1984 Helms-Hunt race - explanation of Helms' reluctance to run initially when the polls showed him so far behind. Interview number A-0423 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill. Restriction: Permission of interviewee required to read, listen to, or quote from interview. " "N.C. Republican Party" ~ Tape Index, Carter Wrenn Interview, Oct. 4,1996 4 025 Details of how a campaign can borrow money, or otherwise manage its cash to its advantage when in a pinch. The willingness to go into debt if the debt could be covered by further fundraising after the election; this was used in the 1984 race against Hunt, where Helms was $2 million in debt at the time of the election. 063 How and why the Club's relationship with Jim Martin improved over the years; one key event was Martin's effort to reach out to the conservative wing after the 1986 election cycle, when Jim Broyhill had refused to reach out to the conservative wing of the party after the Club opposed him in the GOP Senate primary. In particular, Martin offered a "gesture of goodwill" to the Club when he offered in 1987 to rotate state GOP campaign chairs in subsequent years; after that, the Club and Martin continued to increase their ties. The relationship was further improved by Martin's support in 1990 for Helms, as well as in 1992, when the both the Martin moderates and the Club united behind Lauch Faircloth in the Senate race. 190 Occasions in the 1980s when the Club failed in its efforts to elect candidates: the 1982 Congressional races in NC, "a year the locusts ate" when the political tides ran strongly against the GOP; details of the Bill Cobey-Dce Andrews Congressional race, when the Club decided not to "go negative" and probably lost the race as a result.