TYNWALD COURT.

I ■•• ■••■••■•,...../ ,,,,,,, ••■• • •-•••- DOUGLAS. TUESDAY. NOVE111310.B. 8, 1921.

Present: His Excellency the Governor ORDERS IN 00UNCLL. (President), Deemster Callow, the At- The Speaker asked his Excellency:— torney-General, the Receiver-General, (1) Whether any and (if any) what Messrs 3. R.. Kerrnish, W. C. South- Orders in Council have been made under ward, R. B. Quirk, 3. Cunningham, and the Isle of Man War Legislation Act, 3. L. Goldie4latibman, in the Council. 1914, since the date of the Armistice. In the Keys: The Speaker (Mr G. Fred. (2) Whether notice was given to the Clucas, C.P.), Messrs F. A. Dal- Insular Government before such Orders gleish, E. CalEster, G. B. Kermode, E. were made, and if not, why not? (3) J. Ourphey, 11. Cain, D. 3. Teare, R. S. Whethei. your Excellency will take steps Conett, W. Kermeen, G. Preston, A. H. to ascertain whether this Act is, as a There, C. R. Shimmin, T. Gerald 13r,dson, matter of law, still operative now that Charles Gill, A. Qualtrough, W. Moore, the emergency under which the Ael-, 'aas It. C. Cain, G. Maddrell, S. Norris, and pagsed no longer exists, and, in case it is J. D. Qualtrough. still operative (4) whether your Excel- ler.ey will obtain an assurance that it The Governor : Before proceeding with will be repealed as soon as ineezio.abile, the adjourned debate, there are two a ed tli A. until such repeal, no (Jr.lers questions, one of which I received notice iu Council will be made under it until of at our last meeting, and the other %tell pioposed Orders have beea laid be- has been received since. fore Tynwaild for consideration.. The Gcvernor: In repfiy to Mr Spk.a- iker's practically all the Orders THE HIGH.-11A11.IFFS. in Col neil made under the isle. of Man Mr 3. D. Qualtrougli: I wish to ask the War Legi4lation Act, 1914. since the terms and conditions of appointment of date of the Armistice, have been Revoca- High-Bailiffs. tion Orders, of which notice was given to The Governor : In rePiy to the hon. the Insiilar Government. As to the member for Castletown, I have to say legal point referred to in the question., that the terms covering the appoint- will take the opinion of the Attorney- ments of High-Bailiffs are :—A. High- General thereon. Bailiff is allowed to continue his private Mr Norris: Could your Excellency an- legal practice, but his position carries swer the question as to whether, if no pension rights. The salary is £475 these Orders are to operate in the Isle per annum for the High-Bailffship of of Man, you will ask that they should Douglas and Castletown, and £300 per be first !laid before the Tynwald Court? annum for the High-Bailiffship of Ram- The Governor: The question is mixed sey and Peel, and the officers in question up with two considerations. One is are responsible for duties pertaining whether we can obtain an answer in to the offices of High-Bailiff and Coroner time to be practicable, and again, are we of Inquests. asking something we have no right to Mr A. Qualtrougli: I want to ask if ask—whether they will or will not re- the High-Bailiff has any command over pea an Act of the Imperial ParliamentP the police? Can he command them to But I. will take an opinion on the legal bring as many cases as . possible? question. (Laughter). Mr Norris: But, until it be repealed, The Governor: No. this Government should ask that this Mr A. Qualtrough: Have instructions Court be consulted? to that effect been sent round? (No The Governor: As a matter of fact answer). none of these Orders were made operative

The High-Bailiffs.— Orders in Council, '.117N WALD COURT, NO V EA Elt 8, 1 WI.

to the Isle of Man without previously man of the Council of Education, whether being submitted to us. In every case steps were being taken to carry out the they have asked first, whether it was Act for the provision of meals for neces- desirable for the Act to run in the Isle sitous children. of Man. In no case have orders been Replying to the question, the Governor made without reference to the Isle of said: The power of the Education Authority Man first, to provide meals for children attending The Speaker : Would that apply to liVementary Schools is contained in the Orders made under this Act only? There Education Provision of Meals Act, 1915. might he Orders made another Act. Section 4. of the Act, provides as follows : - The Governor I think the only thing "Where the School Board resolve that any of the children attending an elementary school is the opecinb airship legislation. within their area are unable by reason of lack think every Order has been submitted. of food to take full advantage of ihe education Mr Norris: A recent Order has been provided for them, and have ascertained that promulgated applying to the Isle of . funds, other than public funds, are not avail- Man certain legislation. It is not within able, or are insufficient in amount to defray the cost of food furnished in meals under the the knowledge of the Court what the provisions of this Act, they may apply to the ob;eet is. Council of Education. and the Council nun The Governor If the hon. member will authorize thorn to spend out of the rates, such inform the Court what, the Order is, I sum as will tneet the cost of the provision of such fond; provided that the total amount, will inquire. It is not within my know- expended by a School Board for the purposes of ledge what Order be is referring to. this section in any financial year shall not Mr Norris: An Order was published in exceed the amount which would lie produced the "London Gazette" hppgykag certain by a rate of one halfpenny in the pound over legislation to the Isle of Man. I am the area of the Board." asking your Excellency if you can tell us In continuation, his Excellency said: what the particular Order refers to. This provision of the Act has not been put into operation by the Central Autho- "What doss the order carry out? rity. presumably for the reason that, up to The Governor: I have not seen the the present, there has been no necessity to not,ifimtion, so I cannot answer the do so. In the case of Douglas, for many question. veers past the School Board has co-operated Mr Norris: So you have had no intima- with a volNintary hods, called the Free tion from the Imperial Government? Dinners Committee, wim have provided a substantial mid-day meal for all necessitous The Governor: lt may have been. a children attending elementary schools in the matter of correspondence some time ago. Borough, during the months of November . All these Orders Ere matters of revoca- to March. The Free Dinners Com- tion, and it is asked whether it is de- mittee have already made their arrange- sirable they should be made applicable ments for this year to provide the dinners, to the Isle of Man before they revoke as heretofore, commencing on Monday them. next.

POOR RELIEF. THE HIGH-MAILIFFS. Mr Brictson I beg leave to ask his Ex- The Governor: When the Court ad- cellency the Lieut.-Governer whether it is journed, a debate was proceeding on the his intention to make public and circulate motion with regard to the High-Bailiffs, the report of the Commission appointed to as to whether there are to be two High_ inquire into the administration of the -Poor Bailiffs, or one; and the hon. member for Law within this Island. Ramsey, Mr Teare, was speaking. :Tie Governor : In reply to the hon. Mr A. H, Teare : I hope that I shall have member for Middle, the final report of the a censiderahlo amount of support in the Cemmis.sion appointed to inquire into the course of this debate, seal that my argu- administration of Poor Relief in the 'Island ments will even have seine influence on will he published and circulated to members my most strenuous opponent, the hon. mem- of the °pert. ber for North Douglas, Mr Norris. I venture to suggest that the, status quo MEALS FOR NECESSITOUS should be inaintaieed, that the present position of tire Nigh-13arlitis should lie re- SCHOOL tained, and T put my argument in the form Mr Bridson asked the Speaker, as Chair- of five questions to the Court. I was deal-

Poor Belief.—Meals for Ne+Tssitous School Children—The TYNWALD COURT, NOV.HAIBIF,R, 8. 1921.

ing with the first question; that is, is much in the public eye, are subject to the there any real dissatisfaction prevailing in vigilance of this Legislature—does not the public mind with :regard to the present that :alone conduce to promote in the system? is there any uneasiness; any minds of the occupants of that office a con- under-current of opinion to the cffeet that skim-n.14 degree of care in the exercise of what exists et present is undesirable and their duties? it is argued that the re- is harmful? .L admit the hon. member's moval of the High-Bailiff from private contention that the question of the High- practice will take him away from the pos- Bailiffship has been the subject, of consider- sibility of being, "got at." and will secure able debate for a very long period. It has absolute impartiality and freedom of been a very conspicuous plank in the pro- judgment. But, from my knowledge of. gramme of the Reform League; and he Mans life and of the High-Bailiffs, I find has declared—and rightly declared—that it extremely difficult to believe that those the Home Office Commission had something gentlemen are subject to this influence. I important to say on tins subject. On page think the hon. mcmher for North Douglas 1.2 they say :- himself provides an argument in this direc- We recommend the formal reduction of iha tion. He says the cases they have to deal High Bailiffs from four to two and we desire with Are trivial cases—chimneys on fire, to place on record the opinion that the two Judges and the unpaid Magistrates could be- carmen off the stands, offences against by- tween thorn discharge the dukes of the lligh laws. It seems remarkable le suggest that Bailiffs as well as their own. and thereby these gentlemen who occupy these positions effect a further saving of .£800 a. year. kat, are going is be influenced over trifles of in view of the Island's sentiments on this that kind, and are going to he led into the subject., and the desirability of testing the folly of maladministration or undue effect of the redaction in the number of Judges which we propos% before making further leniency. economies. we do not recommend the im- Mr Norris: I did not say so. I said mediate. abolition of the high Bailiffs. Should there were 50 magistrates appointed, who the. Island tegisialitee .however, at some future could equally welt deal with that class date del-:ire ro make is reduction, we recommend the Home Secretary to agree, end in that of case event is might. be acceptable is local feeling Mr A. H. Tease: I admit drat; but he if the ancient title of High Bailiff were then did allege that the High-Bailiff had only attached to fhe Chairmanship of each of the to deal with the most trivial cases. I ven- four Petry Sessions Divisions. ture to say that the tendency of the High- So it is evident., continued the hon. mem- Bailiff. at present, is not in the direction ber, that the Homo Office Committee had of leniency, but severity, and, so far as considerable regard to the sentiment pre- one can judge. the publics Press of the Isle vailing in the Island ; and we have to of Alan has been alert. The fact is, our consider. as responsible legislators, what community is so small that we are all more that sentiment as now. What is the view or less exposed to influence-1 do not say of the people t the :Island, so far as we susceptible to influence. The judges, the arc able to interpret it, at the present magistrates—one, two, or four—are all ex- moment? 1 ant not now disputing the posed to it; but I equally think that it is wisdom of the reform realised already—the the glory of our little community that the reduction from four to two I congratu- men who occupy these positions have risen late the hon. member for North Douglas above every such danger, and it is because on his efforts in securing the removal of J have confidence in the Manx Bench— the High-Bailiff from the Licensing Court. Whether it is the higher or the lower That has boon a distinct achievement from Branch—that I do not believe that any of many points of view. Persoefdly, I was these gentlemen are susceptible to im- not very sympathetic towards it: never- proper influence, or in pertl of icing unduly theless, wo recognise that it is a reform. influenced. i know perfectly well that if The qnestion is—have we nut new arrived I had the ill-luck to come before my friend, at the happy medium ? Our experiment the late High-Bailiff of Ramsey, Mr in reform might very well remain at least Lamothe—if I had been riding my Ilk:yeti) for the present. Is not the present in a dangcous fashion, he would have arraugement working with a ennsiderable probably said—"Mr Teare. you may be a degree of satisfaction? Does not the very friend of mine, but you ought to know fact that the actions, the judgments, and better, There is no option for you but the conduct of the High-Bailiffs, are so to go to gaol." (Laughter.) I think that

The TYNWALI) COURT, NOV.101B.ER 8 1921. 81)

is the sort of influence I would bring to probability is, if you give them more work, bear on the magistrate, 1.1e second ques- they will want more pay, ("On those tion I would ask is this—Would the change figures?") It seems to be the rule in every he an economy ? On the contrary,. would department of life, and the lawyer is not it not be a great deal more costly than the immune. There is every likelihood they present system ? What is the present posi- would demand mare. 'Pie hon, member tion of the High-Bailiffs in the Isle of said there were 1,421 cases before the High- Ian? We have two High-Bailiffs at pres- Bailiff, and they cost Hs a case. l should ent—one receiving £300, and the other think, under the new system proposed, the £475. What does this gentleman in the cost would go up to 14s or 1.5s. If you North of the Island do for his £300 a year? halve one paid High-Bailiff with his whole He presides at the Courts and inquests, time available, the probability is that the deals with cases, sometimes, involving magistrates will cease to have any written judgments, questions of law, practice at all. The ether question I ask drunkenness, minor thefts, criminal eases is this—Is the Change really good for the in the first instance. Quite apart from general adini»istraticur of justice? is it his Court duties, he has an area. extending good for the Bar? Ion may say, "What from Ramsey to Peel, with all the parishes 11=0 we to do with the Bar ?" The legal between; he has to collect all the fees for profession has contributed to this Legisla- the issue of licences for liquors, sweets, ture some very valuable men—men trained music and dancing; is available at all for public life. At the best, the op- hours. From the fact that he is paid. he 1:ortimities for the members of the Manx must he available; it is not incumbent on Bar are extremely limited, and now you lay magistrates to be there. If there are are proposing to remove, to seine extent, difficalt or painful eases, you cannot com- thirt stimulus which positions of this kind mand their presence. But the High-Bailiff carry wit], them—the. possibility of rising is there all hours' he is there at a distance from High-Bailiff to Attorney-General and from the capital. He can he consulted to judgeedlip. Supposing my hon. friend and is accessible by the police, especially in and myself, after passing through the the summer season, when many cases arise. vicisitudcs of journalism, were to form a His duties are very numerous. He throws legal firm, Norris and Team! (Laughter.) in his office and clerk. So I think the Don't you think it would be a great in. island gets extremely good value for the ducement to the partners in that firm to £300 which is paid in the Northern district. be able to look forward to a High-Bailiff- Of course, we know that the duties of the ship, or an Attorney-Generalship? The High-Bailiff in Douglas are much greater ; late Sir James Gell, the greatest judge of he has daily courts With regard to holi- our Nand, rose from the Bar to ho days, or in case of sickness, they seem to Deemster; and the late Sir Allured Dm- arrange matters and generally work to- hell rose to be High-Bailiff. Deemster, and gether. In fact, we have two most quali: Clerk of the Rolls. The recently appointed fled and capable men for the isle of Man, Deemster LaMothe has been trained in the available, not only for the administration humbler sphere of High-Bailiff, and of justice. but for carrying oni many equipped himself for the greater office. I official duties. We luny nothing for offices, venture to suggest that some argument is or clerics, or clerical work. What will the to he founded on these considerations. In new system cost? Any lawyer of standing reducing these offices, while not effecting and ability will probably want £1,000; the slightest economy, you are taking away you will not he likely to get a. man under one of the advantages and opportunities that. Sonic allowarlec will have to be made which men in this profession have. I hold for his clerk, and office, and expenses of no brief for the Bar; 1 am not in their that character ; so the expenditure might clutches. in any way ; but I do recognise run from V.000 to -C1,300 per year. And that, in a small community, it is unwise what about sickness or holidays? Who is to deprive men of this stimulus. 1 am sine to pay them ? is he to pay that out of his 1 Call appeal to the Labour Party for sup-- own pocket? I think there is every port, because they constantly enunciate the probability that the cost of one High- doctrine that it is always wise to provide Bailiff will be more than the cost of two. work for two 'men, rather than one. My friend says you will have to make use (Laughter.) 3 am sure the lion. member of the magistrates' clerk ; but the for Middle, as a conscientious gentleman,

The High-Bailiffs. Try IN w.ti, 00ITE,T, N01' F2,11.13 Kit 8 , 7.921.

is hound to support this doctrine. present .11 IA-Bailiff is compelled by his Labour would, miturallyj prefer to employ agreement to take the position. Re may two men, rather than give one man a fat say, ant not prepared to sacrifice ray office. private wnri.: and take on other duties.'' Mr Norris: Will they take the Union But in regard to the future, the Court, can rate of pay? protect itself by asking his Excellency to see that in future appointments this oondi- Mr A. R. Team: The last question I tion is embodied, that any future occupant put to the Court is this—is the Govern- shall be required to take the one position meat of the Island all to be centralised in or resign. If the amendment falls, it will the capital? I think there should be in be then for those who hold my view to vote the northern district of the Island, with against the resolution. My amendment is: its huge country population and its in- creasing visiting population, some This Court is of opinion that the two High Bailiffs should he continued, but suggest that representative of the Government re- it be a cooditioa in any subsequent appoint- siding in that locality. Sometimes I think ment fin the office that any holder thereof our old systean of having four responsible shall bum subject to accepting the one office if stipendiaries, one in each of the teams, and when required. on conditions to be than was a very good system, and had certain determined, or to resign the office. advantages and facilities. 1. have no The Governor : Will any one second the doubt whatever as to the views of my Own ame adm t ? eonatitueu•ts 07a this subjeela 1 have no Mr Dalgleish 1. beg formally to second doubt we shall shortly be regaled with the the amendment. political war Jailee over the remarks of Mr Shimmin: Before that is put, T the hon. member for Ramsey and his would like to say a- few words. Wo of ability to speak on either side of a. question the Labour Party arc in favour of having avitlt equal facility. But, so far as ray own one High-Bailiff, have risen. because constituency is concerned, J. have, taken of the remark of the him. member for pains to -consult the local government Ramsey, who claims the supportof Labour authorities as to what their views are, and on this question on the point of providing there is no doubt that there is a desire in work for two men. Our feeling is that at the northern district to retain the position the present time Labour is carrying the al a gentleman whose abPity, lodgment, many officials on its back, and that in this and guidance can be of considerable value case it would be providing another non- to the public. 1 suggest that the view producet•. The tendency at the present of the localities chiefly affected should he time is to create a good many officials, and considered. All our Government is cen- most of them a•re. necessary, but we cannot tralised, rightly centralised, in the capital; safely go on making new officials. The all our judges and officials reside here. population of the Isle of Man is not in- But you car readily see that the presence creasing. It is either at a standstill or of some represent atives of the Goverument, decreasing, and that is another reason why, especially a man who has to do with the as far as possible, the tendency to create administration of power, in case of emer- more officials should be checked. geney, is sometimes very desirable, and I The Attorney-General : I would just like have no doubt that 1 represent the major- to say a few words to crystallise what seems ity of my coneti•tuonts in Ramsey and the to be the issue of thia case. Trio hon. North of the Island on this subject. I member for Ramsey has taken it exceed- would, therefore, in conclusion, venture to ingly welt, but somewhat lengthy. If suggest an amendment to the motion. 1 my friends, Messrs Norris and A. R. Teare, recognise that the time may come, when the over came to be judges we should certainly Court may say in the future, we must have have to sit every day. (Laughter.) The one, High-Bailiff. The hands of the Court hon. member for North Douglas has dealt should not he• tied. Therefore, the amend- with the matter judiciously, and very ment 1 propose is that in all subsequent fairly, and to put the cage in a nutshell, appointments to this office, it should be Jae admitted, quite frankly, that there made a. condition that the mart should he would be Ito economy. No person who has prepared, if required, to take the sole considered this van come to any other de- office or resign. if the Court decides to- cision than Tthat, no economy would he at,. day that there should be one High-tailiff tained. 1 tliink he said it, would cost. its for Ile Island, I do not know whether the more, but we could afford it.

The High-Bailiffs, TYNWALD COURT, NOVIO133E13, 5, 1021. 91

Mr Norris: I did not say it would cost to carry out those theories, you will have more, but as much. to put your High-Bailiffs in a. glass case, The Attorney-General : lie certainly give them a bottle, and feed them through said we could afford it, and that is the a tube. As long as you have High-Bailiffs same thing. There is no economy. Ho they have friends, and are perhaps club- also admitted with. equal frankness that men, and have social surroundings, and there is no justification on the ground of if you are going to start the principle of any partiality in the administration of itIA- keeping all those who have responsibilities -Hee. it is not on the ground of efficiency. out of office, where are you going to end ? It is quite obvious that two men, in differ- lf you have magistrates doing the work ent parts of the Island, ought -to be more you have the clerks advising the Court., efficient than cnw man in a central situa- and they settle the law of the Court. tion. .L agree myself that the old system There are groat public boards in the Island of four wee- ever sa mulch better than the administering enormous sums of money. present eystens of two. It is a. groat ad- The hon. member himself is mi several vantage to have a man on the spot, not boards, but we don't suggest that because • only for the High-Bailiff's work, but for the hon. member and other hon. members the thousand and one things they are used have got supparters and friends and cus- for. I think most of the officials in the tomers they cannot administer' fairly the Isle of Man are kept, not for their formal great responsibility placed on them. My work, but for their informal work. The point is that you cannot, by any possibility Northern Deemster no doubt does four or --except -the one l suggest in a glass ease— five time as much work outside his offi- get men who are free from influence. The cial duties, attending meetings of hospitals practical result is what we have to con- and other public institutions. They are sider, and my point is that you appoint most useful men in the towns, quite apart men of honour—(hear, hear)—you ap- from their ordinary work. There is no point men because they have the public economy, and there is no increase in effi- esteem, and no appointment was ever made ciency. Then on what grounds should one in the Island on any other ground than be abolished? So that we may be able to that the man had the qualifications, on the make the job big enough to appoint one ground of honour, and that the appoint- man without private work. That is to went commended itself to the public. say, because of the absolute theoretical in. Whatever!. the High-Bailiffs do is its the Cinema that may follow. open. The Press are not frightened, if Mr Norris: The Attorney-General, 1 they think the High-Bailiff is erring, to hope, does not found his argument on what tell him so in the plainest language, and I said. I did not admit that there would there is some useful service the Press does be no more efficiency. The private work in that te3peet. If you carry this out you itself militates against efficiency. must net only have your magistrates' clerks The Attorney-General : It comas to this, cut of private practice, but the magistrates that because a man is in private work he as well. They must. not have customers. may theoretically be influenced, and if he The Senior member for South Douglas is a devoted all his time to it he, would be more magistrate, and an excellent magistrate, efficient than two men with part time. As too, a highly honourable one, but he is a matter reef fact, none of ns can put our the secretary of the Workers' Union, the hands on a case that has ever happened paid servant of 1 don't know hew many- where any High-Bailiff has been influenced. 8,000 or 9,000 men. They must come be- I have lived in. and out of the Courts for fore him as a magistrate. Oh Le must 25' years, and it is my experience that if give that up, for, theoretically, purity a man happens to be a friend of the Insist be maiutained. .1.11 the Lie of Man, High-Bailiff the chanc:s ale -that he will do what you like, yeti never can sever a get it- twice as hard. certain Linount of overlapping. I do net 11r J. D. Qualtrough : That proves the want to deal with the argument advanced case. by then hon. member for Ike', because 1 The Attorney-General: It does not prove don't understand it. He says we are-going that he will let his friend off. to appoint another non-producer. 1 don't know what he means. I do not know Mr 1. D. Qualtrough: But it is not im- whether he regards -himself as a. producer. partial. .1. can only admire the special ferns of art The Attorney-General : If you are going that he is an exponent of, but I doubt very

The High-Bailiffs. ill TYNWAldt COURT, NOV:10143ER 8, 1911.. much if that work could be called a produc- Judicature Act. Not coly was one High- tive one. Bailiff advocated by several gentlemen, but Mr Shimmin That is a hobby. it was suggested by one or two that the The Attorney-General, Ii is a hobby High-Bailiff should be abolished, and 'the from which, like myself, he probably de- work done by the Deemstcrs. The date rives his daily bread. I think lie might, was November 1.3th, 191.7. One gentle- with advantage, reconsider his ideas of man said, "It is an undesirable state of what are producers and non-producers. It things that come about by reason of the is important to have men in office who are High.Ba'iliffs having private work." Any- on the spot, and it is important that people one reading that would come to the con- arrested should be dealt with immediately. clusion that that gentleman meant that In the summer, the High-Bailiff in Douglas they ought not to have private work. That has to be avai.ahle to sit every day in the gentleman was the late Attorney-General, week. Suppose there are persons arrested Mr Ring. There was another gentleman, in Douglas, Peel, Ramsey, rail Castletown. a member of the Council to-day. He said, What is going to happen? Has the High- "I can appreciate the importance of having Bailiff to go trotting round the four places, High-Bailiffs who do net practise, and T and have the people to be held up in sincerely hope that at the next vacancy the stations until the .High-Bailiff turns up? two salaries may be added together and one Everybody knows that in the summer he High-Bailiff appointed for the whole Island has work that takes practically at! day. at a. salary of. say, £800 a year." Vint Could you get magistrates to do that work ? statement was made by His Honour Deem- If you are going to count on that work stew Callow, who is a member of the Court 'being done liv magistrates in Douglas in to-day. These are not statements by some summer you will have to enormously in- enthusiastic reformer, but by gentlemen crease your magisterial bench, and prac- who have reached the head of their profes- tically appoint a cleric to the magistrates sion, who have spent 40 years of their !fives, in the very same position as the Eighellailiff some of them, In the environments and the stands in. We might consider very well atmosphere of the Isle of Man. Is that what the lion, member for Ramsey said. not sufficient for the layman to lean in that We have got to consider whether we ale direction? I may be wrong. but I am going to make the Isle of Man on attrac- sincerely of the opinion that it. would be tive place for young men to settle down. Netter that one iFfiigh-Railiff should be There -are not many things for a. gentleman appointed for the Isle of Man without any of ability to remain here for, but there are private practice, and that is what weighs many things to take him away, and every with men. It is not a question of cost. I time you cut off these offices, you :ire reduc- agree with the hon, member for Ramsey ing the atraetiveness of the Isle of Man and that it would cost us £100 or £200 more, limiting more and more the number of men but is it not better that wo should pay that who are available for public service. £100 £200 end to he sure that every- Mr R C. Cain t There is no question to thing is above suspicion? Human nature my mind that this question has exercised is human nature; and if a. client comes be- the minds of the peoVe of the Isle of Man fore a geireeman, if he is a very good for a. long tame. I am not going to pre- elient and brings grist to his mill, T put it tend to reply to the learned Attorney- to any member of the Court that it is only General. That might be on a par with reasonable and natural that his leanings Mr Dunlop challenging the hon. member will be towards him. The Court niay not Air Corlett to a wrestling match. (Laugh- agree with me, but I feel that before long ter,) I am not going to say for a moment it wail, if not to-day. I agreed with the that there has been any case where there bon. member for Ramsey, when he said, "If has been a, miscarriage of justice. But, hay- at the next vacancy, why not at once."' ieg heard the arguments both for and I am convinced I am on the right lines, pgainst, on a previous occasion, 7 came to Hit supporting the resolution of Mr Norris, a. conclusion on that occasion, and 1 have and voting for one High-Bailiff. not heard any arguments sufficiently con- Air J. D. Qualtrough : I should like. very vincing to persuade me that I was wrong. briefly, to support the motion. Every 0110 I am going to refer to a discussion that of the arguments used against the motion took place some four years ago on the were used in equal force against the

The High-Bailiffs TYNAVA1,1) CO WIT, NOV infilEp, 8, 1921. 113

Attorney-General being severed from pri- Mr A . H. Teare; Both. vate work. I should like to ask the Court, Mr .1. D. Qu•altrough: Personally, I is there a single member who crowd like don't think that is a sufficient argu- to go back to the old system? I am quite ment that there should be a High-Bailiff sure that the present system has already in the North. I don't doubt that the Proved itself to he of immense value to old system of km. Bigh-Bailiffs, from that the Isle of Man, The present position has point of view gave more satisfaction, but I feel sure, elevated the position of the it was a. distinct step forward to have Attorney General, in the opinion of the two, and I think, to he consisitent now, Isle of Man ; and there never has been a we should go right forward, and have time, in my short recoVection, at all events, one *High-BaiilifF for the whole Island. when the public of the Nand had such con- The High-Bailiff who has just been pro- fidenee in the Attorney-General as it has moted a, Deernster was a persona grata to-daa,, Wear,hear.) There is a; second down there. Is it a fact that they are point that has been used, and it Is one - afraid if there is one High-Bailiff he whieh T must humbly claim to the a fallacy might not occupy the same position in —that it is good for the lawyers, and good their personal respect and good favour? for the Bar that the High-Bailiffs should Is it a, fact that they cry "Oh we would have private practice. Was it a good not object to one High-Bailiff, if it. was thing for the Bar when the Attorney- somebody else?" General, was removed from private practice? Mr A. ii. Team: No, no. Undoubtedly so. We have now got a Mr J. D. Qualtrough : the matter position with one man, one job. The was debated before the claims of a Attorney-General attends to hlis singe without private prac- work and leaves the private work for some- tice were strongly advocated by a gentle- body else, thus providing more work for the man whom I shall not refer to at the Bar, instead of less. Supposing the High- moment, and the boot is on the other leg Bailiffs were removed from private practice ; to-day, and the Court can draw is • own it would be necessary for someone else to conclusions. I think the hon. member do his private work. It would be better for North Douglas has put a strong case. for the men at present in the Bar, and in The public, after all, has to be perfectly the long run it would be good for the Bar satisfied that the administration of jus- stir (have. brie Illigh-Oai9ifF .severrqd from tice is absolutely pure, and cut off, as far private practice rather than two ;High- as possible from any possibility of cor- Bailiffs. I do not want to get into any side ruption, There have been cases, during issues, but I understand there is, at the the last year or two, of difficult positions other end of the Island. a very great desire arising through the High-Bailiffs having to have a High-Bailiff residing in their private practices. (Hear, hear). There midst IIe is required, 1. believe, for was a difficult ease that had to he decided various offices, social, semi-public office-i. by the magistrates through the High- and various ways in which the High- Bailiffs being partners in one firlrn' Bailiffs of the past have borne a very good which, ill itself, should not be allowed— and useful service. I must confess that and this case had to be referred to the we, in the South of the Island have on magistrates. The thing is not right, and many occasions, felt sainething of the same it creates a feeling in the public mind The removal of the High-Bailiff has created that it is not right. a gap in the public life that has not vet Mr A. H. Teare: That was an excep- been satisfactorily filled. I do not doubt, tion. personally, that in the course of time that Mr ,T, D. Qualtrough : It is not suffi- gap will be filled, and that other means of cient to come to the Court and say the carrying out the duties that were per- public have always had justice in the formed by the High-Bailiff will ho dis- past, but the public must be satisfied it covered. Wo are in a transitory stage, is getting justice, 'Unless they are per- but is it a fair argument that the public fectly assured that the person sitting in. should pay the High-Bailiff to carry out judgment is free, they won't be satisfied duties in the North of the Island, not for with the administration of justice. The the sake of his legal position, but duties hon., menthe,. might sit in judgment over which gather round the position because he me, and 1 would not have the slightest lives there? doubt that his judgment would be fair,

'l'hio High-Bailiffs. 94 TYNWALD COURT, NOV111143E11 S. 1921.

but if I thought he had any private or this Island, and there can he no doubt pecuniary connections with any opponent that two High-Bailiffs are not necessary. of mine, say. Mr Norris, for instance, I This is not a new question by any means. would say "Whilst I believe that your Lyt, me remind the Court el..at, when judgment• is fair, I do not think you are tour High-Bailiffs were appoinced in the person to sit in judgment over me." 1777, there was only one Deems-er, ane We have to be very 'careful, and think it was for that reason that fear now that we have gone so far in estab- is fs amt -: considered necessa ry. Let lishing a certain Bench, we ought to go the ino seminal the Court that ;_nn. numbers whole hog, and say that not only in the who Bow- Si:... on the CourThill were, when higher Court., but also in the Common .Law they were members of the House of Division the principle of a judge severed Keys, strong advocates of this, and also from private practice ought to be com- that it has been a demand in the reform pletely established. We have admitted programme for years, not only the pro- it in the Licensing Court, and the hon. gramme of the Reform- Party, but the member himself, has admitted to-day that reform programme adopted by the House it was a good thing to do, then, surely, of Keys. They have also had the benefit the same argument aprkies to the adminis- of the opinion of other members of the Council when the Reform of the Judica- tration of justice in other directions. ture was before them Kane three or four The Attorney-General: With your Es- years ago. Illy oolleague has quoted to cellency's permission, I would like to you what they said, and you have heard correct the quotation of the hon. member how the late Attorne,y4Ceneral and his for North Douglas of what the late Honour Deemster Callow condemned the Attorney-General said. He was referring High-Bailiffs barling a private practice. to: an inquiry of a Committee of the Indeed. Deemster Callow went so far as to Council, and was stating what had been advocate the abolishing of the .Righ-Bailiff- laid before them. The whole paragraph ship altogether. is "One consideration was very firmly put Deemster Callow: That was when it was before us, which is in favour of such a proposed to keep three judges, and do scheme, namely, that it is an undesirable state of things which comes about by away with the High-Bailiffs. reason of the Iligh-Batiffs having pri- Mr Norris : That is F.O. Your Honour vate practice. There really is a diffi- advocated that all the High-Bailiffs should cifity." He was quoting from someone be swept away and their work done by the who had been before the Committee. two High Court Judges. I took the op- portunity last night of reading up the Homo M.r R. C. Cain: I don't think that the Office Commission's report on this matter, Learned Attorney-General) thinks that and also the policy adopted by hon. mem- would intentionally mislead the Court. I bers of this Court on this subject. Then was quoting from a newspaper report. the Attorney-General, Deemster Moore . The Attorney-General: I have quoted and Deemster Callow all condemned the from the official report. High-Bailiffs having private practice. How Mr Dalgleish: As the seconder of the do the rest of the members of the Council amendment, I wish to say-- stand on this question? Year in and year .Covernor: The holt. menthor is out out they have advocated the bringin g about of order. of the state of things which. 3. have brought Mr Dalgleish.: On what ground? before the Court in this motion. The hon. The Governor: As the hon. member member for Ramsey's predecessor was seconded the amendment, he cannot now always in favour of it. In a small com- speak. munity like ours the High-Bailiffs are un- employed at present, and one man if he Mr Norris (replying) : May I E sk the held the position would by no means be Court to put aside the very special plead- fully employed. The hon. member for ing of the hon_ member for Ramsey, and Ramsey asks us to pay a man a salary the more insidious special pleading of the which we all know ho does not earn. He learned Attorney-General of the Island is asking for a dole to keep a High-Bailiff. on this question? We are not here to consider what is in the best interests of The Attorney-General: Does he not earn the Bar, but we are here to ::onsid.er what :C300? is in the best interests of the people of Mr Norris : Ho had to sit 47 times.

The TYNWALD CO WU, NOV EMBER 8, 1.921. 95

Mr A. H. Tease: What about his office case of having trained men to preside in duties? the Law Courts? There was another case Mr Norris: is there not a magistrate's brought by the Douglas Corporation. It Berk in Ramsey? And. as for iris social was a highly technical matter which had to duties, since the coming of local govern- be brought before two magistrates, because ment, with the Chairman or the Commis- the Bigh-Bailiff had advised one of the sioners ex-officio a J.P., and the Mayor of parties concerned and could not take the Douglas a J.P., the social duties of the case. There aa-e three. cases within the 113gh-Bailiff have been taken away to a last three months. What about the very considerable extent. 1. (mama possi- many cases that we know nothing about, bly admit that it is necessary to appoint cases that are never 'brought into the Court air untlecesary official to perform social at nil. Wo have been appealed to that a duties. It is most undesirable that any High-Bailiff is necessary in Ramsey because one holding a judicial post. should engage of the other duties he performs, but they in private practice at all. its the have got a chairman of magistrates there, interests of absolute purity of the a. Chairman of Commissioners, and a administration of justice it is most un- number of other J.P,'s. There are !JO desirable -that he should continue in private magistrates on the list, and last year they practice. 1.1 it was desirable to remove were called on to sit 66 times. Some of the Attorney-General from private prac- them never sat on the bench at all. If tice, and the High-Bailiff, because he was we appoint .nne High-Bailiff, there will he engaged in private praitice, from the something for the magistrates to do. '1 here Licensing Bench, is it not just as de- will be nn difficulty about holding inquests. 1 deny that the High-Bailiff sits in Dou- sirable that we should make the change glas suggested, so that OM' judges can I re, like every day or that the sittings :erne- Cassar's wife, above suspicion? 'What has (-hues last all day, As a matter of fact, been tire practice in the past? The late last year he only sat, in Douglas 215 times, High-Bailiff Harris, who acted in Douglas and each ease Ire dealt with cost the Gov- for so many years, did not carry on a ernment 7s ill salary. private practice, and he administered jus- The Attorney-Genera:!: I said he sat tice in this Court in fairness and every day in the summer. gave general satisfaction because he had Mr Norris: T know something about the cut himself from private practice. Then High-Bailiff's Court and he does not sit the last High-Bailiff of Douglas and Cas- every day. He holds a Court once a week, tletown, Air Gill, Iris private practice did and on the other days he has to deal with riot amount to anything. You did not see the eases of the people who have had too Mr Gill practising in the Court to any much drink, but the bend of magis- extent. Compare that with what has hap- trates could deal with those cases. too pened in the past two years, where a High- do not need more than one magistrate to Bailiff could not sit because of his private try a case of drunkenness, and there are practice.; and what about the casts that many other eases where one magistrate is never come into Court? During the past sufficient. I have proved to the Court 12 months there have been three cases that two are unnecesary, and that as a which the High-Bailiff is paid for hearing matter of fact in the old- days the Nigh- that he could not hear because of his pri- Bailiffs did not engage in private practice, vate practice. One was mentioned at the but things have now altered very much fur last Court, that of the inquest of a boy the worse, as far as tire administration cf killed on the railway, where it member of justice is concerned in the Righ-Bailiffs the Bar had to protest against the High- Bailiff holding the inquest because his Courts. In those days, they did not exer- cise their private practice, but in -these firm acts for the Railway Company. That days they do; and have one of the biggest is a most undesirable thing in a small com- munity like ours. That was not the only vriviate ,praeVirAds in the 'Island. Tire ease. There was the ease of a man charged Government of the Island is responsiWe with travelling first class with a third class for this state of things. The Government ticket. The prosecution could riot be is responsible for the pure administration hrouglit before the High-Bailiff because he of justice. acts for the Railway Company. Lay Mr A. H. Tease: It is only because the magistrates had to sit and deliver a. eon- two High-Bailiffs happened to get into one sidered judgment. What became in that firm. The High-Bailiffs. 96 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 8, 1921.

Mr Norris : The !Government did not That the 'Treasurer of the Isle of Man he make them join one firm, but they are authorized to apply from the current revenue of this Isle during the year ending 3rd March' responsible for allowing them to preetise at 1922, a sum not exceeding ;g27,595 as a grant all, What you ask us to do is to waste towards the fends of the Highway Board. '000 as a. dole to the unemployed lawyers I may say that this matter was before of the North of the Ishinfl. the Court some time ago, and was referred The amendment was put and lost without hack to the Board to consider it along with a division. applications from the local authorities. We The motion was then put, and ina'ried in have the approval of his Excellency to the the House of Keys, and lost in the Council, alteration in the resolution, .and it has and, therefore, fell. been considered by the Finance Committee The division was, in the House of Keys. of the Legislature. 7 ask leave to amend the resolutioe.—Agreed. For:Messrs Kermode, R. S. Corlett, It. Gain, Preston, Gill, .Bridson„ A. Qual- Mr Southward: l here to thank your trough, Shimmin, Norris, R. C. Cain, Exeellency and the Court for the permis- Maddrell, and J. D. Qualtrosigh. sion to alter the resolution to what it now Against: Mesrs Dmlgleish, Cerphey, D. reads, but T do not know whether to take 1. Teare, Kermeen, W. Moore, A. H. that consent as an earnest of more to Teare and the Speaker,-7. come. T do not know whether you are agreed not. tie impose on the llighway. The 'Governor : It is carried in the Keys, -Boned the same terms and conditions as and lost in the Council. These who voted you did on the local authorities, that they for, in the Council, were: Messrs Qua'- have to find half the cost of any work trough, Cunningham, Kerrnish, and Smith- undertaken_ If that is so, the position of 'ward. the Board will he very unsatisfactory, in- The other members of the Council pre- deed. It would mean that if we are to sent were: Deemster Callow, the Attorney- get thie £27,000, the Highway Board would General, Messrs Quirk, and Goit-lie-Taub- have to pet another £27,000 up against _ man. but I would point out that the Board Mr Norris: Seeing that the Ilonse of are in a. different position to the Incel Keys have carried the proposal by suoit authorities, because the Board cannot raise large majority. and that the Council were 1.1ie rate, as it is limited 1w statute. Nor equesly divided, will your Excellency still can the Board raise a loan, or borrow consider the desirability of making a money to do the work, so that we are in change. quite a different position, and, personally, Mr A.. IT. Team: The Court has voted, feel that the Board should have an un- nail in the Keys there were only 1.2. for. restricted grant. Dui"ing the pest year, the Beard have made many improvements Mr Norris: But a number who are in I am in various places, improvements which are favour of the change ale absent. quite outside the usual work of the Board. asking his Excellency, as head of the ad- Take, for instance, the improvement at ministration, whether he will consider the 33a!lla,saIlai ; I think (hon. inflembOrrs who matter further know that p4 ace will admit that it has The Governor: I nm not prepared to been a great imprevement, as far as the support a new precedent. public safety is concerned, That cost the Mr Norris: That being so, I would ask Board £1,000. There have also been a for an opportunity to urge number of other improvements carried out The Gavel-eat: We have same very which we have had to pay for out of our urgent. business, and I would urge on the ordinary funds, with the result that at hon. member that, -whatever further lie times we are in debt. I believe, it is esti- has to say, couhl very well be said at in mated that we will receive £3.500 from the later stage. liquor licences, when the Highways Bill is returned, but, at present, we are £3.500 to £4,000 in debt. Then there are five MAIN ROAD REPAIRS. months, from November to April, when we Mr Southward: I beg to ask the 'leave of to find money for our ordinary work, the Court to amend the motion that stands during which we receive no 'revenue, or in my name to read:— nothing worth speaking about. Our

Main Road Repairs. '117.NW.AIJD 'COURT, NOV1■31.111f)R 8, 1921. 97 ordinary expenditure each month is from it. Then we propose to widen the corner £2,000 to £2,500, so that, by the time we at Glen Maye Bill and the Rally Road, hen-in to receive our ordinary revenue, we Glen Maye; the widening of Ballaga wise are very greatly in debt. Then there is Bridge. Lotion; the widening of the Strang the matter of tar-spraying, Which T have Read at the entrance of Tromode; the iv'ready referred to. Tt is the intention of widening of the Cooil Road, at the entrance the Board to do as much tar-spraying as of the main road the widening of rho Possiihla on the main roads, but to do that Peel Road from Port-e-Chee to Braddan it will he necessary for us to purchase plant. Bridge; the widening of Ellerslie corner and a new tar boiler which will cost :0400 from the Peel Road and &Day Bridge to .C500 This tar spraying is estimated v.idening Then we have a. scheme for to cost us from £3,000 to £4,000; which is stone-breaking at Laxey which will absorb extra expenditure over the ordinary work. some of the unemployed there, and the Then, there is the matter arising nut of the opening up of a new quarry at Port Ezt. decision conic to last week. The Court Mary. Most of those schemes can he put have decided to have the motor races next in hand almost immediately, and, to some year. T put it to the Court that the extent. absorh a lot of the unemployed. coming of the motor races means a good T think I need hardly say that good roads deal of extra expenditure by the Highway are a. national asset to the Island, and are board, in the first instance, in getting necessary to our prosperity as a visiting the roads into repair for the races, 0116 resort, as much, possibly even more, as the repairing the roads after the races of the erection of a shelter on the Victoria. Pier, damage done to them. I should like the and our expenditure of money in this Court to appreciate what that means. and direction he well spent. There is no hear it in mind. Then, the Board have possibility of dealing with all our roads in befc.re them a number of other schemes of any one year. Rome was not built in a itnprovements, to deal with unemp7oyment tiny, and though there has not been time hale a list of these improvements here. to 'deal with all the roads, I am satisfied T should like to point out that unemploy- that we are getting on with the business, ment is very rife in the towns, but it is and that the roads of the :Wand are, to-day, also very rife in the country districts, and in better condition, despite the heavy motor it may possibly be greater after this week. traffic to which they.liaa-e been subjected, do not Mink it necessary to ta- than ever before. The large chars-a-banes llow• this question of unemployment, have caused pot-holes in the roads, but after the eloquent appeals we had last week. most, if not all of them, have been attended T think that we all sympathise with the to, and the roads are now in fairly gond men out of work, and, personally, I feel order., I 'venture -to say tthat in the inciiined to do all T can to help people to history of the Board there has never been get something to carry them on. T should so much macadam ready to put on the like to lay before the Court some of the roads as there is this year. I think schemes to deal with unemployment, sonic hon. members who travel the country roads of which we can take up within the next can bear out what I say. Well, I :an few days. Them is the widening of the satisfied that the Board are doing their bridge at the Blackboards; the con- best, I would appeal to the Court to sti tuition of Wattersou-Lane from Tromode as with criticism. I am not afraid of rea- to Wirlastott. and the widening of Willaston sonable criticism, but T would like to ap- Corner. I may say that these two last will peal to the Court for practical sympathy atisorb some of the unemployed in Douglas. in carrying on this difficult work, I would Widening and improving the Round Table like, before sitting down, to express my Road front Foxdale to South Barrule, and gratitude to your Excellency for the cordial the Slough to Port Erin, so that it can be interest you have taken in this matter, used by large cars, and open up the road and for the practical sympathy you have for the visitors. There are, along it, most extended to us as a Board. magnificent views, and it is a :splendid Mr Richard Cain : In mentioning the drive. At the present time the road is corners you thought of knocking down, you not in good condition. and I am sure that have not mentioned one particularly dan- when it is in condition many visitors gerous place at Foxdale. who wish for magnificent scenery and to got Mr Southward : You refer to the railway away from the madding crowd will visit bridge? Main Road Repairs, 98 INNW A LD COURT, NOVEMI3E11. S. 1921.

Mr Richard Cain: I do. Highway Board intend dealing with the Mr Southward: The Board has had that unemployment under this grant. The in mind, but there is a difficulty aq to • idea for employing many of the unem- what is the best thing to do. It is a ployerl in Douglas was to take up this most, difficult corner, and it is not worth second scheme of widening and improving spending money unless you can make a Watterson's Lane. and then there is Wif- good job of it. We have it in mind, and las.ton Corner and one or two other places shall try to deal with it. near the town. We can prooeed with the Mr Ambrose Qualtrough seconded the worrk within a fov.' weeks. motion. Mr Norris : Can you give us an idea of The Speaker : 1 suggest that we miefut the number of mon who will obtain em. take the vote now. I think we are all oloyment? alive to the fact that the Highway Board, Mr Southward : I cannot, say that. under its chairman, is working all day and every day on these works. They have a The Governor : The Highway Board very comprehensive scheme. have many times been in consultation with Mr A. H. Team: I am not going to take me, so as to make the schemes more ap. more than a minute to join in congratu- plicable Lo assist the men unemployed. lating the Highway Board, and to say They have made arrangements for carrying that I fully endorse what has been said the men to and from the work on lorries, by the Chairman of the Highway Board. so that there will not be waste of tiny, 1 hope at a later stage of this Court the and labour in sending men by train, and Highway Board will consider further pro- so on. This sum was originally put davn positions. The main question before us in. the Budget estimate, and was put baclt now is how to deal with unemnloymont. a month for the question of the definition I had the privilege of interviewing both of main roads, which was dealt with at the his Excellency and the Highway Board, and last meeting. The matter has be:n I wish to express my appreciation of the already approved by the Finance Commit- way the Highway Board are dealing with tee of the Keys and the Council. in matters. I hope this afternoon we shall cordance with the usual custom of fn. deal. lvith the outside towns. Court. Mr Norris: Can the Chan man of the The motion was agreed to. Highway Board tell us that the granting of this £27,000 to-day will enable them„ in conjunction with the Town Council of ASYLUMS BOAILD—mIRCHARGES BY Douglas, to deal with the awful state of AtiDITORS. unemployment which is prevailing? . Do Ilitr Speaker moved we understand that immediately the That the following sums, surcharged by way Board will be able to offer, within auditors ins, the accounts. Asylums Board. reasonable distance of the town, work to allowed:— take these most off the streets and relieve For haul: Interest to 31.5t March, 1921:— them from a state of starvation. From Asylums hoard—Romo for the the grant last week only one hundred men Poor 11 3 11 are employed, and 400 arc still looking for Douglas Boned of Guardians 8 14 10 employment to this Court and Legislature lathy Board of ClaaidianS 0 10 5 Liman Board of Guardians 3 lr) 5 Wo have the duty in the dinner hour to Hasten Board of Goardiana 6 3 4 meet a deputation from the unemployed, For payment io Douglas Board who wish to meet your Excellency on thil Guardians for removal of poor question. Tho towns and villages had to ThlrEffilS Item the Island with- find :50 per oent. (if the cost, and I want to out order of Court: 9 4 9 .. know whether the work on a portion of The Speaker : These, surcharges are this town will immediately be tackled with mainly for bank interest. _Some members this sum, and may we hope that, fly, un- of the Court may recollect that the, late employment of this town will ho reduced. member for ltains2,y, Mr Crennell, had it If the Chairman gives us that assurance, Bill prepared which was intended to remove I shall heartily support the motion, though the necessity for this annual vote. That it is an extraordinary motion, not being is the celebrated fill) whicm went np to on the agenda. f,ondon and was lost. Mr Southward: I may say that the Motion carried.

• Asylums Board.— Surcharges by Auditors;

TINWAliD COURT, NOVENEBER 8, 1921. 99

RAMSEY TOWN COMMISSIONERS— and before the Council. I leave it to the SURCHARGES BY AUDITORS. Court to say whether they are prepared to take this resolution now and discuss it on Mr A. B.. Teaire moved :- its merits. That the following sums, surcharged by the auditors in the accounts of the Ramsey Town The Governor read the resolution :— Committ:ioners. , be allowed :- Resolved : That the Treasurer of the Isle of Bank Interest for the year end- Man ho authorized to apply from the current ing 31st Marech 1921. on iovenue of this Isle, during the year ending To, n Amount £33 l 0 list 'March., 3922, a sum not exceeding £6,000. Ditto. Mompigh Account 5 18 8 to enable the Local Authorities hereinafter Mr A. H. Teitre : I beg to move that. named, to proceed immediately with the work of re eonstructing certain roads. as approved proposition. It is a similar position to by the Highway Board, in their respective :I:e others. districts. The specifications and estimates to Mr Kermeen soconcled.—Carried. he submitted to and approved by the Highway Boaid. and payment of the grants to be made from time to time on the certificate of the TITHE COMMUTATION ACT. Surveyor-General, as the work proceeds. The The Speaker moved :- alkration of the said sum to be as follows:— That the rules dated the 27th day of July, To the Ramsey Commissieonera 1921. made by the Assessment Board under To the Cristletown Commissioners mow Station 14 of the Tithe Commutation Act. To the Peel Commissioners £1,000 1905, he confirmed. To the Port St. Mary Village Com- He said : This is really a formal matter missioners -C1.000 brought under the Tithe Commutation_ Act, To the Port. Erin Village Com. missionera 1905, which Act made provision for the £1,000 apportionment of land subject to tithe and A second resolution was as follows:— rodemption of tithe. (Section read.) We That it be a condition of these grants M have a humorous habit here of passing Acts provide employment, that the rate of wages which require rules, and then omitting to paid 'M labourers at these emergency works be pass rules. Rules were required by the at the rate of 10 par cent. lower than the rates poyablto from time to time in the various Banka:uptcy Act., 1.892, and have never localities to unskilled labour. been inude. This Act is largely in- Mr Richard Cain: would point out effective until those rules are drafted that it is thought that after 12th November and approved. Copies of the rules which there will be a good deal of unemployment have been circulated to members are very in the country districts. Tice Tithe Agent 'has brought simple. The Governor: it 'is la ,question of them before the clergy, the Woods and whether we shall take this up now or note. Forests Commissioners, and other tithe- owners. Every tithe-owner concerned has Mr Onrphey : This is somewhat on the agreed to the form in which they are, and same footing as the vote of £6,500 for T, therefore, beg to move formally that the the Promen ? rake be. approved. The Governor : Quite. Mr A. H. Tea re. seconded.—Carried. It was agreed to take up the motion. The Court. adjourned for luncheon. Mr A. H. Teare am sure 1 am ex- pressing the mind of the Court in saying VoirEs ro Li-Er OF that we are extremely grartelul to your ilii Excellency for your promptitude in this TINE1IPLOYMENT. matter, showing, think, that you recog- On resuming at 2-35 p.m., nise the urgency of the situation., and with- The Governor said : have received pri- out a moment's delay you have somewhat vate notice from the hon. member for Ram- departed from precedent and allowed this sey of a desire to bring a motion before the matter to be discussed. I should like to Court as a. matter of urgency. 1 propose, say also that the Highway Board is de- with the consent of the Court, to take_ it serving of the gratitude of the Court for np now. It is dealing with the matter of a the manner in which it has approached this money grant to certain municipalities, to very vital matter. do not think it is enable them to deal with the present un- necessary for me to occupy any time in employment. In the ordinary course of proving that a grave state of nnomploy- ascents, it would come first before the inent prevails in the different towns of the Finance Committee of the House of Keys Island. I have a petition front 125 men

Ramsey Town Commissioners.—Stireharges of Auditors.--Tithe Commutation Act,— Votes for Relief of 17nemployment. • 300 TY N A LT) COURT, NO V.11/ALBER 8, 1921. in the town of Ramsey declaring that they main roadway leading to the northern are all genuinely unemployed and earnestly parishes; on this work a suns of over requesting us to do our utmost to secure £2,000 is required. A specification has work on the roads and elsewhere. I sub- been sent to the Highway Board, and the mitted the document to a business gentle- wore will be carried out under their men—the agent of the Isle of Man Steam guidance. The conditions are such that Packet Co.—and asked him if this was a a vote of this character will go partly to genuine. petition. lie told me that 90 relieve e grave situation in Rafteey and per cent of the signatories were men the outlying paaishes. Let us get these genuinely anxious to get work. What ap- grants made, and then it will be for the plies to Ramsey applies to other districts. Court say whether any distinction is to On Friday morning there was a conference be made in the rate of pay on the ground between the Highway Board and repre- that these are works of emergency to deal sentatives of the Castletown, Port Se with an exceptional situation. Mary, and Ramsey Commissioners, and: in Mr J. D. Qualtrough: I beg to second addition. there were communications from the resolution. With regard to Castle- Peel and Port Erin. The information was town, the local authority have in hand a forthcoming to the Highway Board, and I sum of £150 earmarked for repairs to believe the Board is thoroughly in sym- the main roads. They expect, under the pathy with this grant, and in all those dis- vote taken last week, a further £150, tricts unemployment is rapidly increasing. nicking 2300 for main roads. They have The Ramsey Town Commissiimers are pre- also earmarked for non-main reeds £110, pared to go ahead with work at once, The making a total sum of £410 to be spent. proposed scheme of maintenanc.? which has Now it will be obvious that sum is quite already been before the Court is not ade- insufficient, when it is borne in mind that, quate to deal with the situation. The in the town at the present moment, there Commissioners have already 700 or 800 tons are at leapt 35 genuine cases of men out of stones quarried ready to put on the of work, who woe'd certainly be working roads. The amount they were to get, if work were avaiJlable, Lists have been £120, is a mere bagatelle to deal with the made; the names of men habitually out situation. All T ask is that the different of work have been struck off. Twenty- towns and villages be put on the same basis two are ex-Service men, and it is felt, as Douglas has been placed on, and given if anythng its to be done to meet those the power to proceed with these schemes of cases, the sum of £410 is quite insuffi- work, subject to the authority of the Board cient. I trust the Court will view sym- appointed by Tynwald. There is one qual- pathetically this motion. with not less ifying clause in this resolutime which has sympathy than the motion which was not been put in the others. I do not want proposed last week in the ease of the to imperil the main resolution, but I con- town of Douglas, even though the mote= sider that some little distinction should be may not have been proposed and secon- made with regard to the rate of pay. 1 ded with the same eloquence. With re- believe that in .England the rates paid for gard to the second part of the resolu- emergency work are somewhat less—1 tion. proposing ten per cent. less wages— think 25 per cent. less in some districts. What we suggest is that men engaged on The Governor: That is not before the these Government relief works should not Court at present. be paid at quite the same rate as they are Mr J. D. Onaltrough . Then I will ,on- paid in the ordinary market. 1 think tent myself with seconding the motion. there is reason in that. The rate of wages and expressing the hope that it will re- now in Ramsey is about 44s; ten per cent. ceive the unanlmons approval of the from that would be 43s, 'which a man on Court. ,Icev-ernment work would get. If they can Mr Norris: in associating the town of get higher wages in the ordinary avocations Douglas with the motion, I would like to and forms of industry, let them do Fe. ask the Highway Board whether. in view But if they are unable. here i; Government of the enormous work of supervision work to relieve the situation. think the which will be entailed on the expert Highway Board already have schemes be- officials of the Highway Board, it is their fore, them from Ramsey: Castletown. and intention to appo:nt assistants in order Port St. Mary. The proposal in Ramsey that there may be no waste of public is to deal with Bowling-road, which is the money. It seems to me that the time

Votes for Relief of Unemployment, TYNWLAI,D COURT, NOVEMBER 8, 1921. 101 has arrived when one general. high-road states main reads. In regard to Dou- Surveyor-General. is utterly insufficient, glas, the grant of £6,500 was not ex- and the consequence may be that, instead pended an main roads on the schedule, of these schemes being put into early so that if it is the wish and desire of operation, there will be delays in the the Court to extend that to main office and the expert part of the work, roads and works of public utility it cer- and there may be intolerable conditions tainly wouikl be to the advantage of Port arising within the Text few weeks. Erin„ and possibly some other places, for Mr Shimmin: I am in close touch with instance, Peel. In Peel they are up the workingenen, and, although there agaiinst a street to which char-a-bane has not been any outcry, it is because our traffic has been diverted from the point people are shy of doing anything of the of view of public safety, and that street sort., because of their thrifty habits; yet has got into a very bad condition. If we need it none the kess. the resolution is carried, the Peel Town Commissioners cannot utilise any of the Southward: I certainly am in sym- Mr grant to maintain the street, because it pathy with the resolution befo-e the Court. I think it is a wise move on the is not on the acheduled list. If it was part of this Court to help the unemployed altered to include the words: "All works of public utility," it would he an ad- in the out-towns of this Island. Ir. re- vantage. gard to the questions asked of me by the hon. member for North De iglas„ Mr The Governor: According to the hon. Norris. as to supervision, I may say that member's resolution, the main roads the matter has come before trIlo meant are what are, in the judgment of but I have been thinking over iu my the Board, main thoroughfares? own mind, and I hardly think it will be Dfr Norris : The way out of the diffi- the best pol'cy to appoint a permanent culty is to include, for the purposes of Assistant Surveyor-General at the pre- this grant, such other roads as, in their sent time but, in order to meet these opinion, would rne,o, fire purpose. exceptional cases, we might appoint fore- lli Dalgleish: Why not add it to the men or gangers for the different parts. schedule now? According to the work, as far as I under- The resolution was put to the Court, stood it as read by ymir Excellenvy, 1 and carriled. find there has to be no supervision exer- Mr Norris: Would it not be desirable, csed by the Highway Board in these mat- now that the sum of £7,500 voted by this ters. in the case of the Douglas Cor- Court last week for the same authorities, poration, they have to subret specifica- for the same roads, should also be avail- tions and estimates for work put down able in the same direction? by the Highway Board for their approval, and the moneys would be paid upon the -.241r Southward: And on the same certificate of the Surveyor-General. terms? Mr A. H. Teare: I think it should be The Governor.. It is the same in this a condition of the grant just made that resolution. ie6,500 voted by the Court on November Mr A.- H. Teare: The Attorney-General 1st. for the Douglas Corporation, that drafted the re.solutfion, and put it in form the rate of wages payable to labourers for the different copies. The specifications employed thereon, and in any similar and estimates are submitted to and ap- work, shotild be 10 per cent. lower than proved by the Highway . Board, and the rate payable to unskilled labourers grants will be made from time to time on in the district named. The effect is the survey of the surveyor, as the work that men who apply for this relief and proceeds. emergency work shall not get the same Mr Southward: There is another mat- rate of pay as that prevailing in ter, and perhaps there is a little diffi- the ordinary forms of industry for ALF. culty. For. instance, at Port Erin, I skiiiied labour. Not only is there a pre- don't think they have any main roads cedent for this, but it appears to me to that, at present; they can re-construct. be somewhat desirable. These works are but there is a road which they intended instituted as emergency works on the making good for public use, so why should spur of the moment. It stands to rea not the grant allocated to Port Erin be son the very best value for money can- expended on this road? The resolution not be got, and for that reason think

Votes for Relief of Unemployment. i02 TYNWALD COURT, NOVLABLB 8, 1921. it should not be expected that the full were to so humiliate a man as to make rate of wages should be p.‘icl. Then his wages ten. per cent. lower. again it is calculated to be a means of The Governor: That is merely a nega- keeping the wages in the labour market, tive. It would not be necessary to move as high as possible. I should be ex- an amendment tremely sorry to say or do anything to pull dews the wages of the working men Mr Shimmin: Very well, then; I would in these days, when living is so dear, but, like to speak against it. It would be II having regard to the fact that the Court stigma on the men, and humiliating to is going out of its way to meet this situa- ask them to work for less money. I am tion, and to provide for emergencies, it sure every penny the men will receive is not unreasonable to expect that there under this proposal be well spent. shall be this slight difference and distinc- Mr Bkdson: I also oppose it. It is tion between the regular state of things, very easy to rush to extremes, and make and what is really an abnormal pro- extravagant charges against various vision. It will encourage and stimulate people in opposing it, but 1 have no de- a certain type of men to put forward sire to dc so. If this resolution is car- every possiibile effort, to secure work in ried, it will have an adverse effect, not other directions before applying for this only on the men employed, but on the form of work at this slightly lower rate general community, as their purchasing of wages. power be decreased, and they will ikir Corlett: I understand there is a not be able to spend and circulate so proposal that labour should take a 10 much money. There is another argument per cent, reduction. It is only right that, if this is carried, it may tend to that that should be so. The circum- create further unemployment, as a person stances are exceptional, and there is an may be tempted to discharge his em- awful lot of men unemployed. Under ployees. After the negotiations which the circumstanees they ought to be have taken place, and when things have satisfied in getting a moderate wage. settled down, it is hardly a wise thing The Receiver-General: I second the to do to sow dissension between employers motion. There are reasons why a lower and employed. The wages question has rate of wages should be offered. It would been settled in accordance with a scale, not be reasonable to take men from work and we hope this scale will remain in force who are at present employed, and it for some Vane, but a motion like this might otherwise be a temptation to do would tend to reduce wages, and it is so. What we want to get at is--who are hardly fair when unemployment is not really unemployed? I am quite satis- brought about by the men themselves. fied that those who are suffering from It is a result of the visiting season, which unemployment would be glad to have half cannot be expected to maintain all its a loaf rather than no bread. workers during the winter season, and The Spea:ker: I am afraid I must op- the men are not responsible for it.. It is pose it. We must not get confused I hardly fair to punish these men by a have heard of cases where the increase reduction in wages; because there is no on the wages has been very big, but work. Thee, again, all the men who hare there are many cases where it is right, started on the works in Douglas have and proper to ask for the men to agree three or more children. Most of them to a reduction. In cases such as this, have been unemployed for some time, and where there .is no alternative work, it is most probably they owe money to various quite different. I think, until we take tradespeople, and surely it is better to some steps to see that those who sell the pay them a respectable wage, so that necessaries of life do not keep their prices they can pay off their debts? J strongly so much above corresponding prices in oppose the motion. England, we ought to leave the wages Mr Preston: I should just like to point as they are. out the absolute futility of this. Ls it Mr Shimmin: I world like to move as not perfectly obvious that, while human an -amendment that, after the words nature remains what it is, if you pay a "rate of wages," the words following man 10 per cent. less than his fellow, he should be deleted, That would have the will do 10 per cent. less work? effect of not giving a ten per cent. reduc- Mr J'. D. Qualtrough: Is it worth while tion. It would be a pity if this Court dividing the. Court on a. matter of 10

Votes for Relief of Unemployment. T&WALD COURT, NOVEMBER 8, 1921.

per cent? In England it is 25 per cent., on the highway, or with a plough. In and it enables the decal authorities to oln- the interests of all parties it is well to ploy one-third more labour than they guard it in this way. It is as well to otherwise would be bite to do. Here we have this put in, or else you will have should be able to employ one-ninth more. everyone going in for these jobs, and no- In the out-towns, I imagine the wages body sticking to steady work. are already less than in Douglas by 2d Mr A. H. Team: I feel extremely re- cr 3d an hour. luctant to introduce thF.a aspect of the Mr A. H. Teare: We propose applying question, but it is with the desire to try this to Douglas, too, and spread our funds out as far as Mr J. D. Qualtrough: Then that does possible. The hon. member for North away with my main argument. Douglas has provided the argument, that it is far better to employ 120 'Mr Norris: Those men have been en- men at 45s that 1.00 men at :Ws. What I gaged at the standard rate prevailing in fear is that these grants, passed so Douglas. willingly and readily to-day, are only the Mr A. H. Teare: Yes, if this motion is beginning, ana, after two months' time, not carried. we shall have to pass bigger grants. 1 Mr Norris: If this motion is carried the air anxious to see that as many as pos- Men well have to get a, week's or a. fort- sible shall. he employed, and, by saving right's notice. The same thing will and conserving our funds, and reasonably apply to those on similar work at Laxey. spreading them over a larger number, we In addition, you will have the regular shall have more money, and be able to men in regular employment going to the emalKay more men than otherwise. Ten Highway Board and municipal bodies and per cent. less is better than nothing, after reoei'ving thei; pay on a permanent job, all. It is an emergency. The men have whille the man who is most hardly hit got to come to this work, because they is taking 10 per oent. less. I think it have failed to get anything else, and it is hardly worth while doing this. Many is purely on that ground that we are do- of these men are army men, and 1 think ing it. We shall be acting in a prudent the Court will hesitate very much before manner by reserving and conserving our it assents to these army men, who have funds, and, at any rate, we shall have done duty, being placed on a distinctly more money to spend. lower scale than the more fortunate The resolution was put to the Court, men. I told the Court tIns morning and was carried in the Connell, and lost that 100 men were on the 'Douglas Prom- in the Keys. The division was:-- enade. That is incorrect, it is only 50; [p the Council.: The Attorney-General but it is the intention of the Corporation and Mr Quirk voted against. In the to put another set of men on who are Neys:—For: • Messrs Caaster, Dai- out of work, and those who have been 1 Kermode. Corlett, D. J. Terre, employed for a fortnight will have to be Moore, and A. H. Teare-7. Against: out of work for a fortnight. Therefore, Ourphey, Norris, R. Cain, Kermeen, what position would they be in if the Preston, Gill, Bridson, A. Qualtrough, wages are reduced? It will come to half Shimmin, R. C. Cain, .Maddrell, J. D. work and half pay. Qualtrough, and the Speaker-13. Mr Caliiister: I would hike to support the resolution. It is only right and fair THE -ill° TOR RA CES. —fair to the persons who are on all the The Governor: There is the question of year round employment at a fixed wage. the motor races. The races have been ap- A. good many who are unfortunate proved by the Court. Is it the pleasure of enough to be out of work have been in a the Court that this be taken now? slightly better position during the sum- The Court agreed. mer than those who have been pilo&Ing 31r It. C. Cain moved:— on with a fixed wage. It would not be fair to the steady worker to be placed Thar, in the opinion of this Court :- in a worse position than those who have (1) That the regulations against pillion been on steamboats or 'busses, driving riding be withdrawn. cars or motors. They would be able to (2) That Ca prohibition against allowing earn more moray than the man with a any racing mar:Mae on the roads of the Island on Sundays be maintained, and steady job, following a cart, or working that, on the Sunday before the Races, no

The Motor Rakes. 104 i_`YNWALD COURT, .NOVEKWIER, 8, 1921.

Motor Vehicle of any description be the responsibility for them not coming will allowed on any road before 9 am., sub- ject to such excepiions as may be made rest on this Court. I. view with alarm the by the Highway Board, and conditions that exist on the mainland, at (3) Resolved further. that for the purpose of present; and -we, as representatives of the identifying Motors ricking part in any people of this 'Island, should not do any- competition which requires an ,,Order, thing which. will, next year, prevent people °toeing. the roads for the purpose ofuch s coming to this Islam]. I think that the competition, such Motors must carry on Court can very well put these nimt on their that machine, securely fixed thereto, its racing numbers,' which will designs% honour. I admit that, in l913, there was such Motor a racing machine on the occasion to put these restrictions on ; but Island for the purpose of practising. think that the motorists have become less Such numbers to be affixed for the wild now, and settled down. There is., f. twenty-one days preceding Such corn- understand, a. meeting of the Committee oetatien, whilst such machine is on the bland. this month, or early in the next month, and, miless they know that these rtrie- Mr Cain said I can understand that thins are to lie removed, they may go to there should be a dead of diffidence in ap- Belgium, where the authorities are ready proaching this question, seeing that mem- to welcome them, and m-e doing all they bers are not enamoured in the matter. cart to induce them to come. 1. hope that I don't wish to raise anything of a C011- the Court will see their way to remove troversini nature on this 'notion, but .L these restrictions this year, and put the want it to be understood by the Court that, men on their honour. if the restrictions unless it is carried, there is a possibility are removed, the traffic; on the roads on t hat the A.C.U. will not come to the that particular Sunday will be nothing like Island, and that the races will not take the traffic on the roads le the height of the place. Whatever are our individual season. Ii hope that the Court will see the opinions, I know that. f am willing to waive reasonableness of the proposal. 1 will read mine on this occasion. The Chairman of the last clause, which, 1 think, is import- the Highway Board told us,, on the last ant, so as to impress it on hon. members' occasion, that he was looking for a lead on to inds :— this question from the Court. IL believe Reeolved further, that for the purpose of that some members of the Board are identifying Motors taking part in any corn. favourable to withdrawing the regulations; petition which requires an Order closing the and the whole thing hinges on that. Last reeds for the purpok of such competition. year 400 permits were issued. No one such Homers mast carry on that machine, se- was refused on this particular Sunday. curely fixed thereto. its 'racing numbsr.- which will designate such Motor a racing That being the case, I do not see that there machinis on the Leland for the purpose e. can be any more traffic on the roads practising. Such numbers to be affixed for whether this is taken off or not. But, twenty-one days] preceding such colupetition. still, there is the annoyance of having to whilst such machine is on the Island. apply for a permit. 1 admit that the people Mr Southward: That is already a who live along the road have to put up regulation. • with a. great deal of inconvenience; and, Mr R. C. Cain : 1 move the resolution, in the second clause of the resolution, it is and trust that the Court will see its way provided that no racing machines be al- to fell in with it for this year, to see how lowed on the course at any time, and no it works, motors of any sort on the roads before Mr A. R. Teare: How many permits 9 p.m., with certain exceptions to be were granted last year? granted by the Highway Board. Mr Curphey : Can you prevent the Mr R. C. Cain: Four hundred. racers going on the course on other The Shecker: I would like to second the machines ? motion. With regard to the Sunday motor Mr 11. C. Cain : 1 cannot see how you traffic, we in the Island have a. different can say, because he happens to be a com- feeling and sentiment to people across the petitor, "You must not go in a motor ear water. Compared with them, we might on Sunday." But this provides that the be termed "a Sabbatarian people." If machines entered cannot be used on that we had one million visitors over here in day. They have decided that they will the summer, the ordinary Sunday traffic not come hero unless these restrictions are would be largely ineraised; a 'id removed; so that, if they are not removed, yet, -we would not, on account

The Motor Races. Yi\r.WALD C/O1111T, NOVEMBEit 8, I921. ibg of the litray increased number is all we want, I have strong Sabhataxian of visitors, take steps to restrict ideas, but I certainly do not want, for one the normal motor traffic on Sunday. The moment, to say that no one must take motion provides that there shall be no their motor ear out on 'Sunday for any motors on the roads before nine o'clock :egi timate purpose. No one can go on the on the Sunday, the idea !wing that penple read before nine a.m.., and 1 think that living along the course will get one morn- this will meet the people of the Island ing's lest in seven. With regard to the reasonably and fairly, especially in view racing on the Promenade, the removal of of the fact that 400 permits were issued these restrictions does not do away with last year, and, no matter what we do, that the ordinary rules as to riding to the number is not likely to be increased. danger of the public. There is one matter .haters who eeine to the island should have which causes a. great annoyance to people, a certain respect for the wishes of the and that is, that, about the time of the ptsuple of the Island and, now that we races, a number of young men, not engaged have made a protest: we now seem to have in the races at all, go about on machines struck the happy medium in these rules without any silencers; and they should be and regulations. dealt nith by the police. Mr Callister: I will support a motion Mr Curphey : In the first place, I under- that all the roads be open to motorists on stand, from the Chairman of the Highway. :Sundays, with the exception of the roads Board, the A.C.U. officials had no objection used as the course, where the racers will so these regulations, and that the bother he centinuously for four weeks. Persons was only made by some of their foilowerb, along the euurse, who have to suffer who have no regard for the sacredness of four weeks of torment, are surely entitled tkx day, or for Clod OP moan. Are WO_ en WI- to have a rest on this one Sunday. J. think for that class of man? They have six that is only fair, and will appeal to any days is week in which to practise, and, unbiassed person. It is all right for Mr sorely, that should he enough. It is pro- Speaker ; lint he has not got to put all vided in the motion that none of the actual with the row, and is not tormented almost racing machines must be out the roads on out of existence. I think that we ought that day; but the firms can send to the to have it little consideration for the people Island machinee equally as fast and of the who live along the course. 1: think that, same make as the racers, which can be if we are to have the races on the Island. used, so long as they hare not numbers. all parts ought to have to put up with the Do the me arbors for Douglas and the mem- torment. 1 will move an allIendment, that ber fur Ramsay know the great nuisance all roads be open on Sunday but the these racing machines are to the people of course. As to the pillion, 1 think nothing the •Island:' going to vote against of that; we see it every day. this. Isit us, at any rate, have our Sun- Mr Norris: How eau people get to other days free. We people living in the Island parts of the Island, if they must not cross have SOMO rights in the island. the course? Mr Southward: This is a very import- Mr Callister : We have a number of other ant flatter as far as the people living in toads on the Island, and they should leave the country districts and the upper part these roads clear on Sunday... Four weeks' of Douglas lire concerned. The whole ques- continuous practice is far too much. tion seems to amount to this—Are we go- Mr A. H. 'Beare: Just one word. As ing to make the Island to be free to one who took a part in securing these re- motorists on the Sunday previous to the strictions, I am not opposed to the motion. race? J. quite agree that, last year, owing 1 was at Kirk Michael on the Sunday- of to the large number of permits issued„ the the year before these restrictions were im- regulations were a farce. ("Hear, hear.'') posed, and a most serious state of affairs I may say here, on behalf of the Highway existed, as racing machines went round Board, in reply to the hon. member for dangerous aorners, where there were a. Michael, that the Chairman of the A.C,II. number of children about, at a speed that was not in favour of these regulations be- was to the peril of life and limb. The pres- ing removed; that my statement in re- ent motion, however, deals with that diffi- gard to that applied to last year. i do culty, because it provides that tin racing not know what their views are this year ; oar or machine shall be on the road. That but my feeling on this is, is the Tynwald

The Motor Races. 106 TYNWALD COURT, NOV.10113ER 8, 1921-

Court to rule the Isle of Man, or is it to good reason for going on it T move as be ruled by the A.C.0 I' That is my posi- all amendment .— tion as a member of this Court. My first That no racing machine be allowed on the duty is to the citizens of this Island; and, marls on Sunday. and that all roads of the if the A.C.U. is up against the citizens of coarse be closed to all motor t•-riffic except to the Island, F mu for the citizens. I think pni-ons holding permits icued by the Chief that the hon. member who moved this Constable for good ra.sons shown. resolution said that the traffic on the mach: Mr Ambrose Qualtrough: I second that. on the Sunday previous to the race would Mr Richard Cain: That will apply to not be greater than the traffic on any Manx motorists. T think it hardly neces- ordinary Sunday sary to include the ordinary Manx 'Mr E. C. Cain: I said greater than in motorist. It should be confined to people the height of the season. litre for the race. illr Southward: T quite accept the hon. Mr D. J. Teare: I wish to support the member's statement; but•. I should like motion. For instance, anyone wishing to to point out to the Court that, on the travel from Aindreas Midhael, could Sunday previous to the race, there are a not do si.o unless he used part of the number of machines here, and to have 400 cow se. T de not think it right to treat or 500 of them on the road, travelling at ordinary holders of a. licence like that. It excessive speed, is a danger. 1, am sure ri.akes their licence of less worth than itu that those members who live in the face .value. think that the Manx country know perfectly well that, to have motorists should have freedom on this day. a number of cyclists of that description on Last year, quite without knowing that I the roads. when the children are going to was doing wrong, I had to break the law. and from Sunday-school ; and the people are (Laughter.) I think that the Court will going to church and chapel, is a great be well advised to adopt. the resolution, nuisance. We ought not only to have re- am sure that those gentlemen who com- strictions with regard to the racing prise the A.C.Tj., when they are placed on machines, because the actual practice has their honour will do nothing to offend the been, in the past, for the actual competi- people of the Island. The regulations be- tors to use machines of exactly the same ing removed will not interfere with the kind as their competing machines, to go r:te- c.rdinary police regulation of traffic and a ing round the course on Sundays. I know it, reasonable speed limit will have to be ob- because I have seen them at Sulhc Bridge, served, in such places as Michael. It, any practising hack and forward taking that case. the traffic on the reads of the Island, very dangerous corner. 1 think the people on this particular Sunday. is nothing com- in the Island find this is very distastef pared to the traffic on the mairL'and. I am in sympathy with the view put went from :Liverpool to Preston and Lan- ward by the hon. member for Glenfalia. caster on a Sunday recently, and the traffte The point 1 want to bring before the Court there was remarkable, but there was no - is that, for a fortnight before the race, confusion or danger. Each motorist kept people living along the course Lave to put on his awn side of the road, and everything up with a great deal of inconvenience and went well, T must say that our main roads annoyance, mid they ought to he exempt ore not in anything ihke as good•condition from that on Sunday. 1 think it only as oven the bye-roads in England. The right that these people should he treated bye roads, despite the heavy traffic, were with a little bit of consideration on Sun- much superior to cur roads here. There day. People say that these restrictions are were no pot-holes, and they were as smooth an inconvenience for the cyclists but you as the Douglas Promenade. must remember that people living along The Governor: 1 am afraid the bon. the course are inconvenienced for six days menther has not recently travelled on the in the week, and it is little enough that Promenade. (Laughter.) they should he considered on this Sunday. Mr Norris: The proposal'. of my colleague Mr R. C. Cain. But. to rinse the traffic embodies a reasonable compromise. on all roads lays down emphatically that there shall be Mr Southward: No. What I mean is no racers on the roads on Sunday, and that the course should be restricted to ail there can be no motor of any description oil traffic, except to those who can show the course before nine o'clock on Sundays The Motor Races. TYNNALD COI;RT, NOVEMBER, 8. 1921. 107 during the races. I sin authorised to say The Governor: For good reason shown - that if this resolution is carried, it meets that is, they are elastic. with the approval of the A although Mr R. C. Cain: I had it from the higheit they have nothing to do with the people authority, that the A.C.U. are willing to who •want to use the roads during Sundays co-operate with the police, in regulating —they are private people, the racers ari- the traffic on this particular Sunday. If absolutely debarred. I am authorised there are certain churches where there is further to say that no machine similar in a stretch of road, they would place a man type to a racing machine is to be used under there, so that persons :•who come along at the regulations on the course on Sundays. excessive speed will be signalled to slow so there will be no camouflage or subterfuge down. The granting of these permits does of a rider riding a machine without a num- not prevent the police from stopping any- ber. If they do so, they are brealt- ing one who is going at a speed dangerous to the regulations. That being so, think the puhlie. this resolution meets all it ought to do. 1 -c, The Governor put the amendment to the sin also authorised to say that the A,c„ Court. For (in the Keys) : Messrs Canister. would ho prepared to co-operate with .1nv Dalgieish. Kermode, Curphe,y, %. Quni- authority in this Island, to carry out in its trough, Shim/lin—O. Against : Messrs spirit the meaning and intention of that D. J. Teare, II.. Cain, Kermeen, Pres- resolution, ancl the intention of this Court. ton, Gill. Bridson, W. Moore, A. H. I trust with these guarantees loyally carried Teare, Norris, R. C. Cain, Maddro:1„ out on hotli sides, they should have the and the Speaker--I2. In the Council free use of our roads on Sundays, the same Messrs Southward and the Receiver- as other days. Genera:. voted for the others against. Mr R. C. Cain: I live alongside the road, Araor.dment lost. as near as any member of the Court, and; The resolution was carried. I. admit, these machines are a nuisance, lint T am prepared to make some little sacrifice for the Island. An bon. member of the VICTORIA Council has asked—"do the A.C.I. want to The .Receiver-General; The Court, run the Isle of Man?"--I do not think having wandered so far on the agenda, they have any idea, or intention, or wish perhaps I should read the proposal which to do so. 'but I think they wish this Court stands in print. to run the isle of Man in the interests of ['her the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be the people. There is a difficulty in closiug authorized to apply from the funds standing the roads in accordance ,with the amend- to the credit, of the Accumulated Fund a sum not exceeding Y.5.0(10 to enable the Harbour ment. We know, perfectly well, that 9 Yo.linwsioners to carry out the deepening of great many people come over here, who arc the inner berth on the south side of the nut racing people at all; they come out of Victoria Pier, curiosity to see the course which is run and Continuing, the Receiver-General said ; to view the race itself. If you are going This Court has spent a great deal of time, to get a permit to go on the road, you are, and is spending money .ou the highroads, perhaps, going to endanger the races corn- and am now going to invite the members ing to the Isie of Man altogether. I trust to go to sea. First of all, I want to ex- the Court will not fall in the amendment, plain why the Harbour COThnlisSiOners- but will support. the resolution. 210101101 they considered it very urgent— Mr Southward : I had a conversation did not submit this proposal to the Public with Colonel Madoc, and he told me there Works Committee. The Harbour Board considered that it was not a question which would be no difficulty `V, hatever in dealing with the matter, Constables. could he we could properly raise before the Cbm- mittt5e. That Committee was out seek- placed at various points where other roods ing- for employment for the unemployed came on to the course, :Aid they could c:eal and for such work as would employ a great with the matter. number of mein I am sorry to say that Mr A. -IT. Team: Will it be possible to this proposal cannot be considered as one i,sue as many permits as the Chief Con- which will employ a considerable amount stable likes, as it other years? of Manx labour. It will have to be car- Mr Norris: Not in view of this reso!u- ried out by means of plant which is not in tuon- the Isle of Man—plant that will have to

Victoria Pier. 108 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEklisElli. 8, 1921. be engaged from some other place, and the there was accommodatioll for four berths people who supply it are very likely to le- by the Victoria Pier; now, there are only quire the employment of their own ser- two, awing to the greater draught of vants, as it is their property, and those ser- vessels frequenting that pier. There is vants will be responsible for the mainten- another question—the danger of grounding ance, upkeep, and safety of the plant. those huge vessels in that position. The However, :I submit the proposal to the modern vessels which come now to the Idle Court for two reesons—one its urgency ; of Man are provided with what we terns a and, secondly, the danger at present exist- bow rudder, and for that reason they are ing. For a long time past the Harbour weaker in the hen's than in any other part Board has considered the necessity of pro- of their structure. If we allow such viding a. sufileient depth of water al. the vessels to take the ground seriously, and Victoria. Pier to enable. the Piermaster to to he. ebbed in that position—the bow rest- cope with the traffic which at present comes ing while the lest of the vessel is afloat alongside the 'Victoria Pier. The urgency the possibility is that we nayhave claims of providing more berthage is quite an old rgainst the :Hai-hour Board, for damages matter; it occupied the attention of the sustained by the vessel. 1. do not want Court so far back as 191)8. lt was then anything of that sort. It is had enough contemplated, owieg to the increasing num- Le deal with traffic hampered by the shal- ber and size of vessels which were coming lowness of the harbour, but it will be worse to the island, with passengers, that more if we have to pay a considerable sum for accommodation would have to be provided damage sustained by anyvessel in that in Douglas to cope with the traffic. Ill 19118 position. 1. hope the Court will allow the the Tynwald Court constituted a. committee Harbour :Beard to proceed with the pro- under the chairmanship of his Honour posal to deepen at the south side of the Deemster Callow, who is present here and Victoria. Pier.. We are asking for ;e5,000. will satisfy the Court on any question in I have had the subject seriously in hand doubt as to the necessity of further ac- ever since my appointment. I saw the commodation for the traffic of summer danger; and have been continuously re- visitors at the Victoria. Pier, The exten- quested by the harbour-master to remedy sion of the Red Pier in order to provide this difficulty and provide deeper berthage two berths involved the expenditure of a on the south side. of the Victoria Pier. :E formidable sum—a sum scarcely possible had an idea. that it would be possible to to be voted by the present Court. How, do that by hand work; we have to ex- ever, if the Court decides that is the better cavate a considerable depth in clay. course, and if they provide the money, understand it is clay and bou!ders at the will accept their decision ; but T would not bottom, and it is not expected we shall have venture to. say—at the present rates of any soak to deal with ill this position. Sl wages and cost of materials—what that thought it was possible to dig out a depth seheine would cost. But we are able to where the keel of the vessel would be form an idea of the present proposal, which afloat by the side, of the wall about 20 feet is to deepen to a sufficient depth on the out.. 1 do not now think that a. wise pro- south side of the pier so as to accommo- posal. I think the better course will be date vessels which are berthing there. to form a. sufficient width out from the When the Victoria. Pier was first built in pier. Sometimes, in that particular 1870, we considered the berthage sufficient. berth, it is requisite to put two or three At that time. vessels were drawing 8 to 12 vessels alongside of easel' other. feet of water at most. Now we have you have 'tot the width, you camiot do it. You vessels which draw anything up to 14 or cannot utilise the position effectually. To 15 feet of water. On various occasions limit it to a narrow space, it would almost those vessels have grounded in that berth, nivel ye ill ather risk. Ti thus dislocating the arrangements by the n- wind blewing sideways might cause. a vessel to drift an Piermaster—it got 'beyond his reach. A this bank and strand her there and damage vessel could not sail at the proper time; she was blacking other vessels coming in her. 1: believe we shall need to deepen at to unload their passongers. This made the least a00 feet from the present pier. If traffic very difficult to deal with. We the extension of the Red Pier ever takes must have depth of water to cope oven place, this deepening which we now sug- with the present traffic, without any in- gest. will he required, because the whole crease. In the olden time, as I said, depth from one pier to the other will re-

Victoria Pier. TYNWA1,D COUBT, NOVEidl3ER 1021 . 100

quire to be deepened, in order to deal with of this character. it may be we shall pur- the traffic. You cannot have a shoal be- chase the plant, bat, of course, if it is tween the two piers. Therefore, 1 think costly, we may spend the money without, this may be regarded as the commencement doing so. What is proposed at present is of an ext.easion of the Red Pier. I am that wo engage a. firm capable of carrying satisfied also that this proposal will have out the work to fetch their dredger, carry- a stilling effect in the harbour. for deep ing along the hoppers, which will discharge water is In ure tranquil than shallow water. the stuff in the sea outside the Pier and It wilt have a. very goad effect in the winter ettry out the work by contract. We season in the case of a. vessel coming into think better to do the work by con- Douglas Harbrur in a gale of wind. She tracting at so much per yard. This will come into a position with greater operation, which is suggested by the safety owing to the nicre tranquil Etat:: Harbour Board, will be carried out by of the sea.. The point of difficulty which men who are capable of doing this work will arise ultimately is that, if this deepen- in the Isle of Man. During another ing takes place, a certain amount of under- year, we may see an increase in the num- pinning will he found necessary for tho ber of vessels, and it is perplexing to present Victoria Pier, The Victoria Pier the Harbour Board to know what we are was built in 1870, and it was built of what going to do. I. have heard it mooted is called pocket work. There is on both that there may be. am opposition steam- sides of the quay a. wall strong and suffi- boat, service, and I am not interested in ciently bedded down in the clay. 'Olen that subject; hut, if there is an increase there are cross section walls, and they fill is the nurnilier of vesseOs using the pier, in the packets with debris. how, there. is we std: he in a terribly difficult position a difficulty in dealing under the .sea with to deal with them. and if they require an divers for under-pinning a mere wall, increased draught of water it will be which stands perhaps 10 or 12 feet on day. impossible. Our risk will be increased, removing the clay and under-pinning by because we *Al be compelled to put. concrete work. That difficulty was present some of those vessels into a shallow berth, 20 years ago. Mr Walker. who was then and they may be overlooked, and receive either resident in the Isle of Man cr con- damage. I think I have put before the sulting engineer, MIN' the difficulty as a Court suffieient to show that this ex- formidable one. The difficulty still re- Ileneliture is one of urgency—one that mains; we have tackled it. We purpose cannot be delayed. If the Court is wish- carrying it -through, and hope it will be a ful to see more cleart'y what is preposed, success. Instead of under-Onning. which we have Mr Bila,ker present. Fie has a would be, a very costly process to he done p:an or sketch illlustrat'ng the area and by divers, Mr Walker suggested the build- description of the work, and if the Court ing of another wall in the deep water out- w:shes to ask him any questions on the side. widening the pier 25 feet more titan subject, we are prepared to call him but. it is at present. it is a suggrstion that is in concluding, I. want to impress on the • practicable, but there is this objection to Court., if possible, to have this work done it—you are making two distinct berths, at the earliest moment. We purpose en- makini, all inner berth and an outer berth, gaging this plant, mind bringing it hem and in the middle you make a break, which canly itr the :vring, and having the work cannot be used for a berth. We may have compSeted before the summer traffic conies throe vessels by the side of the quay wall, ore. I hope the Court pass the reso- and if you extend the wall as proposed by lotion, as it appears :Al print, so that the Mr Walker, you can only have two berths. matter may be proceeded with as quickly Of course, you can have vessels outside as possible. the vessel moored by the wall, but I think 1)e roster Callow : I shall have great it would net be so serviceable as having a pleasiue in seconding the resolution with straight wall from end to end of the pier, re.gard to the matter the neceiver- to which we can moor vesselF, in any General has referred to. As he sa-,s, I position either in the outer berth or the was Cha.rman of the Committee that sea inner berth. The process which is to be in 1908 to consider the whole question of adopted for this work is to engage or pur- the harbours of the Isle of Man, and it chase plant; the Harbour Beard is not was impressed upon me then, most folly, committed by actual terms of agreement that it was absolutely essential that fur- with any person. Then' have corresponded ther berth accommodation was reqirled. with firms capable of carrying out work Another matter that I was tatisfiacl about,

Victoria Vier. 110 TY N WALD COURT, NO VTINFBE-R, 8, 1921.

was that we had in the Harbour Master afloat. Now that larger steamers are a gentkman who used the -ix:sting 3m41.s craning in, they require extra stabil.ity. to the very greatest possible advantage. The Reec•iver-General has spoken about At that time we had his adviee and the steamers with bow rudders. Tf they assistance: and we also had the advice of ground it i, very dangerous indeed. Bat Blaker, and when we wished to make there is also a danger to other ships, assurance doubly sure, I took the opirnam The idea in marine architecture, at that of Mr Walker, whose reputation, as an time, was to eriablo,the ship to respond engineer, was world-wide. He entirely readily to the rudder. If a vessel confirmed the recommendations made, grounded at the Victoria Pier, on a with very sl:ight alterations. We put fat ing tile, there would be no support that scheme before the Court—the leng- under her, and the time would come, thening of the Red Per. The Court, when the sliffp would strain herself—and however, did not feel inclined to carry strain herself heavily. She might frac- it out at that time. This morning, I ture her plates. If that happened in was looking up an old plan, setting out the height of the season it would take the various schemes, with the estimated anything up to £10,000 or more to put prices, and part of the scheme then pro- the ship in a, seaworthy condition again. posed was to carry out the roadway to before she could got a Board of Trade the Steam Packet Company's office pre- certificate for passengers. It is a very m'ses. In 1874 the cost of the scheme serous matter. Not unify would putting was estimated at £5,709. The price in a ship in an unsafe berth be a cause of 1908 was £51,000. and probably to-day it damage to the ship, lint they would also would he. nearer £70,000 to £100,000. I have to pay for the detention of the ship. was perfectly satisfied then—and am Several of our hon. members might say satisfied now—that the Harbour Color it is a large sum to pay, and nothing to rniss-foners are scarring a grave danger show for it. Ask any seafaring man, and if they leave it in its present position. A he will always tell you that it is the un- iarge boat corn big into the inner berth seen danger, the hidden danger, that would almost oertainly ground at low is the real danger. A nuttier thing—by water. It would, perhaps, cause serious deepening this berth the ground swell damage. and we should lose more money would not have the same effect on it, than the Court is calved upon to vote for and it would be better for nervous pas- the work. I have the most absolute con- sengers embarking or disembarking. If fidence in Mr Maker, and if he sets for the harbour is made deeper it will in- ward a scheme as a good one I think crease the safety, and reduce the the Court would be very foolish not to anxieties of the Harbour Master. I act upon it. 1 ask the Court to vote thank the Harbour Master is a very able the money, and carry out the work. mall, and I have pleasure in paying this Copt. Maddra*:!: l support the motion, tribute to him. I should not be very and I desire to congratulate the Re- wet satified to leave this wall for an- ceiver-General on bringing it, before the other year or two. and to leave a small Court, knowing full well for some bank of clay outside of it. 1 should be considerable time the danger of this much more satisfied if there was a small berth. The thought that passed through trench cut alongside ,L„ and Wed in with my m'nd was that we had a real live concrete or blocks. I am sure this is a man in the Receiver-Gen-eral. which is very important matter, because we only something to be thankful for. 7 can have four berths there, and the Victoria perfectly undertsand the anxiety of the Pier is the starting off point for other Harbour Master in getting steamers parts of the Island. I appeal to the berthed on a falling tde. I can very Court to support this, and I think the wel realise his feelings, having ex- Chairman is to be commended for bring- perienoed something like them myself in ing the matter before the Court. failtMg tide, and an -unsafe berth. I The Speaker: I should like to ask for could take the load off the ship, but the more information. When the deepening Harbour Master cannot stop the passen- is done, is there any likeiheod of it filling gem from embarking. I have seen a up again, and ;if such filing up is possible piece of rock, no bigger than an inkwell, or probable, will such filling up be mini- damage a ship. showing Imw necessary it mised by taking away a good deal of the is that steamers should always remain materiaa, the gravel!, and so on, which now

Victoria Pier. TY.ICWA.LD 00111T. NOVEMBER S. 1921. 111 lies banked lib between the two piers? VICTORIA PIER.—ERECTION OF If a great &A more space was given CRANE. there—if there was a hole there—it would tend to deepen the lower berth, because The Beeeiver-General moved :— sand and so on is always driving up to That the '1.1111.51114!r of the Isle of Men -oe the authorized to apply from the funds standing to endit, of the Accumulated Fund, ti sum The Rec&ver-General: Replying to the ;wt exteeding ,e5,000 to ennbie the Harbour Speaker, I _might say that the smaller Conenieionere to erect crane on the Victoria the area, you doe-pen the sooner it wilt Pier. fill up. i ami nab at aft prepared to say He said : i bring this forward as a matter Whether there is a possibility of it silting of urgency required to deal with the up or not.. It depends. While there traffic, I have Felt for a- long time that i.s a freshet running down Douglas Har- it was a matter of very great mcenveni- bour, earry■ng with it a, quantity of mud ence in dealing with luggage, motor cars, and other matter, there is a possibility of and al:. sorts of parcels that come and go a sight siltage. I don't think ere need by each of the steamers. The first thing have buy fear of silting from the shore that is generaily clone is that the Harbour bel.wocn two pier;, but We Iniffht Master g.ves the vessel a berth to disem- have. hark her passengers. That is done as The Si Baker What 1 meant was if quickly as possibe, but before the vessel you take away a, consnderah4e amount of bras completed this disembarking of pas- gravel and so on, between the two piers, sengers, another vessel leaves the berth, and so allowed more space for sand and and she has then to move into another so on to come in from the sea, whether position., in order to discharge her lug- that would tend to prevent it from silting gage, the advance luggage, and all lr© up other artic es that come by that boat. it The Receiver-Genera: It will never find has been a most diflimilt, thing to deal its way up there, It will always lotate with the traffic in that way. What is in the position we will have deepened. I contemplated is that we Should have a have been inquiring from various persons. crane. I th.'nk. Mr Speaker has circu- especially the Harbour Master, I am lated a letter emplainnng it better than I told that the bed of the sea at the Bat- can If we had a crane working quickly tery Pier is so steep that nothing will ire eou Id discharge and disembark at the drive up, so that we are at least safe from one time. The Luggage could all be taken :mix sating from the sea. There is one away whale the passengers were being thing we may make ourselves satiefi.ed disembarked. I beillove it is a fact that upon in the future. It will allways need very serious co.mielaints have been a.:- inspection in order not to allow stones or 1:4,.ed against parsons who have been over- boulders to get in, which might damage cliargiug the trawelling public for taking vessels. things ashore from these vessels, and we Mr A. Quaitrough : I am very much tin should guard against injustice being done favour of deepening these berths, but we to the travelling public. There have been are comity deepening them for the Isle of exorbitant charges made by persons tak- Mae Steam Packet Company. The new ing :LI ggage aeliore for passengers who steamboats -that are going to come will have been unable to help themselves. have a draught of about 16 feet of water, There have been ridiculous charges. We and I don't know what they are going were wishful that we torrid erect crane to do with them. Two boats are being to be driven by electric power, which is erepaxed now, and they are going to run the most suitable method, the most ser- from Heitehead. They will want berths, viceable, and the easiest of manipthlaten, and and the quickest mode of hoisting and I woiad like to move an amendment lowerng. The matter has been delayed, that -tliey he deepened two feet lower however, in consequence of the electrical than is estimated here. These steam- scheme under emrtemplat'oa by the Cor- boats will either have to get eeeommoda- poration. That will be ultimately sup- fon at Done= Or Ramsey. plied, 1 suppose, in the next year or two: Mr A. H. There: Hear, hear. The hut, in the meantitne, we thought we Queen's Pier. (Laughter). were justified in making an attempt to The resolution was put, to the Court, work the crane by either a motor car or a nd carried. a generator attached to equipment for

Victoria Pier,— Ereetion of Crane. 112 TYNWALD COURT. _NOVEMBER 8, 1921.

generating the required energy to mani- Mr Ourphey: Not even the A.C.U.P pulate the crane on the spot. We think (Laughter). we are justified fp this, because of the The Receiver-General.; We intend to urgent necessity. We are satisfied that make a reasonable and appropriate charge it, would he of very great service, and a for all articles dealt with, and I can say convenience to traffice. The traffic would for certain that I am satisfied, for the be better regulated, and the advance lug- charges that will lie made will remunerate gtfge, fish. fruit, and other things, would the Board, and pay interest and sinking be better handled. There is a great final on the -oiretay, that the thing is difficultly, especially in dealing with fish: not so had as it may appear on the and it has been told me repeatedly that agenda. It is nota waste of £5,000 by damage to this perishabi:e article fins been any means. for the equipment will justify something terribk, It is shot down to a reasonable charge for this service I the vessel's deck, and when it gets down )tope the Court wla pass the resolution, it often smashed up. We intend, by for it, iv ill' be of great service whether it this arrangement. to make the whole pays for itself or not. I am satisfied thing more easy, and more safe. with less that the return will justify the Court in damage to the artidos in transit. It is granting the money to the Harboo7 Com- always difficult, hav'ng regard to the missioners. I move the resdlution. unloading of posse:tiger traffic or advance Mr A. Qualitronigh: I beg to second the lniggage, to get a. vessel in the exact place resolution. but I should like to ask the in wh:ch she can rie discharged. There Roce'ver-General if the crane will inter- are lefts of steps on the quay, and you fere with the proposed covering of the have to have a vessel exactly in a position pier ? to run up the steps with the luggage: and Tlie :Receiver-Generail: This is quite a if yon cannot get the vessel into that different part of the pier. It is 'mit eon- pos:tion, you cannot get her (1.-mharged. tenio:atocl to cover this oart of the nier. We propose to have a crane that will run . that will Captain Maddrell! I shall. support this, Prom end to end of the pier: as it will be most useful for the disposal alight it alt just in the ra,,itiolt iu which of luggage on the steamers. I have the vessel rests, so that the work can go noticed the same thing at other places, on without any hitch. where the luggage can be lifted with a Mr Ourphey: Both sides of the Quay ? jiatform, and deposited right on to the The Receiver-Generai: Both aides if steamer. It iviill save a lot of loti.ging required. There trill be a jib about of luggage and goods. At present, extending on each side of the when motor cars come, the stearnar has Pier. There is another difficulty. to leave her moorings at the Vietz,Tia When a vessel comes :11, the crew Pier, and go to the crane at the Bicak- is at large, and they get away on shore. water. This will oriatibe motors to lie frequently the firemen. They all go. Of landed on the Victoria Pier, and be also course they want their Liberty at borne, utilised for many other purposes. The but there is ninny a erne when the vessel whole platform can be swung on board i; required to be shifted front berth to anything, say, the junior inemb3r for berth to discharge the luggage, and the South Douglas. (Laughter). Harbour Master has told me that be has Mr R. Quin: What weight will it lift? gone aboard the vessels awl found no The Receiver-General: Three tons, and cr(-.Ars there, and ti:ey had to mako the has an arm 17 feet from the centre of the best of it. If anything of the sort hap- p'er. pens, we can allow the crew to go home, The motion was carried. and manipulate the crane, f do not sup- pose we can compel a crow to remaim by PUBLIC WORKS a vessel. Captain Maddreil can tell whether that is so or not, but it is always The following appeared on the agenda; understood, when a vessel is at the quay. Motion standing in the name of Mr Drink- that the crow can go ashore. There is an- water, adjourned from 13th July, 1921.— otlier point. It is not intended that the Mr :Richard Cain (A7,-re) to move:— That this Court i5 of oninion that the Harbour Board should expend this sum of rrcemmendattions contairird !ri the report of money for the benefit of any particular the Public Works CountuiVoo. dated 232c1 May, Company or Corporation. 1921, should be adopted, and that provision Public Works, ry NAVALD COURT, NOVEMI3ER 8, 1921. 113 for she following oxfpenditure should he made during the current ins-cial year :— lit :Richard Cain They have been before (1) The ercaion of a shelter on the them. These are their proposals. Victoria Pier. The .t4...Ltorney-General Might T suggest. (2) The provision of implements required that the matter be adjourned on account by the Highway Board. of the late hour. (3) The provision and erection• of grids at am Tongue at Douglas. and at Ram- The Speaker I move that the proposals he sey Harbour. pa in four 'notions and adjourned to the (41 A grant towards the cost of carrying next Genii. out oortain drainage, Mr J. D. Qualtrough I beg to second Mr Richard Cain : It will ho in the minds at—Agreed. of the memhers of the Court that a Com- mittee was appointed to consider what public works should be undertaken. The LABOUR EXCHAN.GE. Committee met several times, and had The briaker moved :— before them the Harbour Board. the That the report of the Commita2e ',merited Highway Board, and representatives from 1s: Novembrr. 1921. be adopted. Ramsey, and the-north of the Island, who The Speaker said : The Court have before suggested what pubic works should be them fine report of the Committee. The carried out. A number of matters came Exchange was formed for the purpose of before us, and we Iffive four distinct pro- bringing warkers and employers together, posals before the Court. It seems rather and another part of the work was finding strange that the first, which deals with servantf; for hoarding 'houses and hotels the erection of a shelter on the Victoria and pines of that kind. The Committee Pier. should be in my hands, instead of came to the conclusion that. there was no in the hands of the Receiver-General. the Government should incur The first item, for the covering of the reason Victoria Pier, will mean an expenditure tins expense for work of that kind, because of :110.000 to £70,000. The idea is to people wishing for servants could obtain cover the Victoria Pier en the south them in the usual way by advertising, or sdei through the Registry Offices. Then there was the emergency work due to the war. The Speaker : I do not want, to interrupt With regard to inioging workers and em- the bon, member, but it would be more pl,)yers together to fill vacancies, Mr Alf. 1 convenient if this was taken in four Teare„ the hon. member for.South Douglas, sziarate motions, as it is impossible to tells us that this work is now done by the consoler four different matters in the trade unions, who get all the information one vote. I would like to suggest to the as to work in the various towns. With iron. member that he might hold over the regard to the emergency work, taia.t has be- question of the shelter to the next Court., come less within the past year or two, and as it is a big matter, and cannot he ; and they recom- rushed at thii- late hour. I move that will soon cease altogether the proposals be taken in four motions. mend that one clerk should he retained for that purpose. I move the adoption of The Rereiver-General : This does not the report. commit the Court to anything. Mr W. Moore seconded, and it was The Speaker The motion says that pro- carried. vision shou"'d he made during the current rear, THE D3)73ATES AND PRINTING. The Receiver-General. ft does not com- The Speaker. moved:— mit us at all. That the report of the Committee, preROttrd Mr Richard Cain It is very difficult to 3:1 November. 1921, be adopted. take a big item like this, if ire intern) to The Speaker: The Committee was ap- adjourn at 5-40 pointed to consider whether any reduction could be made in the publication of tlic Mr J. D. Qualtrough : You do not expect debates. We could do three things. Firs: us to rush a question like this. Cannot we, could have no reports at all. I thin'L these Harbour works he referred to the that the hen. member, 31.r J. D. Clocas; sug- Harbour Beard, and the higliw:lys gested that, hue he is not present, and 1 to the Highway Board for their report? think that it is very desirable that we

imbour fi]xcliange.—The Debates and Printing. 1.14 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEM13ER 8, 1921. should have some official report. Then we this Court are produced, hut, frequently, could adapt a system of a summarised re- on the agendas, we find quite a number of port; but the Committee consider that wrong letters. On page two, for instance, would he absolutely impossible. Before a of this agenda, we find the hon. member limper summarised report could be made a for Rushen's name spelt, in a very strange full shorthand note of the debate would manner, which shows that the work has have to be taken, because if that were not beer produced in a ship-shod fashion. dente a very important matter which had Work of this sort should he done carefully nn nnimportant opening might be omitted and well, especially as the firm responsible and we might get an inadequate report, are being well compensated for the work. Then there would be the difficaity of tone I trust that the Committee responsible will members who would think that their views take Mops to effect any economy in the had been inadequately reported. T think price due to fa! ling prices . it very necessary that we should have a full report, because it is very useful tn re- The Speaker: The Committee respenSible fer to the Debates as to what was said on for that matter is the hon. member of the any particular question in previous years. C.ouncil-, Mr Cunningham, the hon. mem- For instance, there is the Dentists' Bill, ber for North Douglas, Mr B. C. Cain, the which is shortly to come before us, T. find -Clerk to the COrtnell, and the Clerk to the it very useful to refer hack and see the T-Touse of Keys, and the work is let. out by arguments used when that Big was List tender. T think that the lion. members before the Legislature. Then, again, it is of that Committee do their utmost to OM isc. impassible for an hon. member always to remember why he gave a vote. Tie may The Attorney-General: There is one com- remember that he voted on one side or the plaint, and that is that the Debates are other, but he cannot remember the reasons pt.blished so late after the debate has taken which led him to that decision. It is very place that they have :lust public interest, desirable that a. member should know Llcca \Then you pick up a. paper in July and reason why he voted. The CommiUee, read a debate that took place in January, therefore, recommend that the pre-iniit yen find it is not worth reading, and that system should he continued. The Debates has occurred several times. If seine mean: might be consideraibly shortened, if non. could he devised. whereby all the debates members would shorten their speeches. udmich. could not get in time. paper Ivey° pub- Mr J. D. Qualtrough : I beg to second lished in a monthly supplement, the diffi- the adoption of the report. I think that en' ty might he got over. Unless their pub- it is desirable that we should have a !•til! lication is mere up-to-date, L affree. with official report. I do not know on what Mr J. D. Micas: that they are not terms the reports are published, but it ivert.11—. will he within the knowledge of the Court Mr Norris : May T say that the Commit- that paper has been reduced 'by half of what. tee inquired freely into this matter; into it was twelve months ago, and wages are the mitraet awl the terms made. Under also falling; so that we should get a. little the contract they have to publish ten relief in the cost of the debates, There is columns a week. and the balance within a another thing that I temild strongly urge, certain time. I alisolute'y agree with the that the printing of the debates Should he Attoricev-General as to the necessity of open to public competition. T hare heard having the debates published promptly. it said that only one firm could do it, tuna Mr A. H. Teare: As a practical man, 1 that is an argument 'which requires a good would like to say that to report the pro- deal of proof. As a Legislature, we should ceedings of this Court, the length they are not give a. privriFege to any ofre firm. Un- now, is a physical impossibility for any doubtedly, it is a great privilege to the newspaper in the Isle of Man. They would paper that has the opportunity of publish- have to he more than twice as big as they ing these reports, and must add greatly arc, to deal' -with the proceedings to-day to the prestige of the paper, so that we and then there would be no room for any- ought to be careful not to convey any un- thing else. Speaking as a practical man due privilege; unless in open competition very much doubt whether the printing I do not; wish to cast any aspersions on the dehartes, from a newspaper point (.1 tho manner in which reports presented to view, is worth while.

The Debates and Printing; 'IAN WALD COURT, NOVEMBER 8, 1921. 115

Mr J. D. Qualtrough: What is the price? Mr A. H. Teare : 1 do not know, but when a newspaper gives 20 or 30 columns to Leglislative debates to Ihe exclusion of news, it is no a good thing. I do not know of any newspaper, with the exception, per- haps, oc the London "Times," which at,- tempts such reports as are given in "The Isle of Man Times." The report was adopted, and the Court adjourned to Tuesday, November 22nd., at eleven o'clock.

The Debates and Printing.