Wednesday Volume 560 13 March 2013 No. 129

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 13 March 2013

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 287 13 MARCH 2013 288

Justine Greening: To date, we have provided about House of Commons £13 million of overall assistance and we will work with agencies such as the UN, the Red Cross and the World Wednesday 13 March 2013 Food Programme to ensure that we have a balanced approach to dealing not just with people in Mali who need our support but, as the hon. Gentleman points The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock out, with the refugees who have fled to neighbouring countries.

PRAYERS Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con): Given that the humanitarian situation is likely to get worse [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] until there is a framework of peace, does the Secretary of State support steps towards a UN peacekeeping mission? If so, what does she make of its mandate and BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS the proposed time scale?

ELECTORAL COMMISSION Justine Greening: My hon. Friend is right that discussions THE VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSEHOLD reported are under way on whether a UN peacekeeping mission to the House, That the address of 4th March, praying can be put in place. Ultimately, if it can sit alongside a that Her Majesty will appoint Gareth John Halliwell to political process of reconciliation, that might be one be an Electoral Commissioner with effect from 13 March way of starting to create the space not only to get 2013 for the period ending on 12 March 2017, was security back into Mali but to provide the conditions presented to Her Majesty, who was graciously pleased for the country to develop in the longer term. to comply with the request. Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): The Mr Speaker: I must advise the House that a deferred Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs Division was omitted in error from the pink ballot estimates that 4.3 million people in Mali are in need of paper distributed with the vote bundle today: four humanitarian assistance. Will the Secretary of State Divisions rather than three should have been shown. A update the House on what her Department is doing to corrected version has been issued and is available from ensure access for humanitarian agencies in Mali and in the Vote Office and in the No Lobby. Members should neighbouring countries? use the corrected version to cast their votes. Votes cast using the incomplete version will be counted for the Justine Greening: The best thing we can do is work three Divisions included on that paper. Votes cast using through independent, impartial humanitarian organisations the corrected paper will be accepted by the Clerks to and, through the UN, continue our lobbying work to replace any earlier votes cast using the incomplete paper, ensure we have access. Access is a real challenge in up to the close of the Divisions. I trust that is clear. places such as Mali and is also, of course, a particular challenge in places such as Syria. Without access, we cannot get humanitarian support to people, and that is Oral Answers to Questions why we focus on it. WaterAid INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT 2. Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): What support her Department provides to WaterAid. The Secretary of State was asked— [147428]

Mali The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for International Development (Lynne Featherstone): The 1. Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East total funding provided by the Department for International Cleveland) (Lab): What recent assessment she has made Development to WaterAid for the financial year 2011-2012 of the humanitarian situation in Mali. [147427] was £5.8 million. The figure for the funding allocated to The Secretary of State for International Development WaterAid in 2012-13 will be available at the end of this (Justine Greening): More than 430,000 people have financial year. been displaced by the conflict in Mali. Access is improving to conflict-affected areas, but the humanitarian response Miss McIntosh: I thank my hon. Friend for that remains challenged by insecurity and sporadic violence. answer. Will she join me in preparing for world water UK humanitarian aid is supporting more than 400,000 day on 22 March? Will she also recognise the massive Malians with food, medicine and support to refugees in contributions from individuals and others, including neighbouring countries. WaterAid, who contribute to WaterAid, and from projects such as EcoLink, applied by Nestlé in South Africa, as Tom Blenkinsop: I thank the Secretary of State for that all benefits developing countries? her response. More than 250,000 people have been displaced inside Mali and 170,000 Malians have fled to Lynne Featherstone: I thank my hon. Friend. I know neighbouring countries. What additional assistance will of her interest in water as chair of the all-party her Department be providing to internally displaced parliamentary water group and I congratulate all those people and refugees? who make a contribution on the key issue of water in 289 Oral Answers13 MARCH 2013 Oral Answers 290 developing countries. My hon. Friend mentioned world salaries of civil servants. The list of approved recipients water day.The Department for International Development is subject both to vetting processes and to independent will host events on that day, particularly on how water audit. impacts on girls and women. Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): Does the Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ Minister agree that the best way to improve the financial Co-op): It is good that there has been progress on access stability of the Palestinian Authority would be to lift to safe water and sanitation, but there has been much the blockade of Gaza and movement and access restrictions less progress in much of Africa, in both urban and rural on the west bank? Does he also think that the EU areas. What are the Government doing to address that should be trading with the Palestinians and not with the inequality? illegal Israeli settlements? Mr Duncan: A 2011 International Monetary Fund Lynne Featherstone: The Government are taking a report estimated that without movement and access great many measures on water, sanitation and hygiene— restrictions the Palestinian economy would be 78% larger WASH. We have so far enabled 1.9 million to gain in terms of GDP a year, amounting to about $6.3 billion. access to clean drinking water and 2 million to gain That would remove its dependence on aid. access to improved sanitation, and 6.6 million have been reached through DFID support for hygiene John Howell (Henley) (Con): Is there not a more promotion. We know more has to be done, particularly general question about international donor money being in urban areas as those areas increase. used to support Palestinian institutions that have taken violence against Israel? What steps are the Government Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I welcome the Minister’s taking to ensure that that money genuinely contributes positive comments on WaterAid and her commitments to financial stability and is not used in a way that in respect of world water day, but does she recognise undermines the peace process? that, currently, UN statistics on the millennium development goals measure only who has improved water, not how Mr Duncan: We rigorously monitor any danger there many people actually have safe and sufficient water? might be that the Palestinian Authority in any way Will she ensure that a more robust standard is used and incites violence, but it is committed to do exactly the is at the centre of DFID’s work? opposite, and it is right that we support it, the potential Government of a Palestinian state. We wish to see Lynne Featherstone: I will certainly take up the hon. further progress towards the peace process over the Gentleman’s point on how we measure such things, but months ahead. the Government have doubled their commitment to reaching 60 million people with WASH funding. We are Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): We all support looking to scale up WASH, because we simply are not the creation of a viable two-state solution in the middle reaching enough people at the moment and the millennium east, but that will come about only if the Palestinians goal is off track. are able to run an effective country. What assessment have the Government made of the structures available in the Palestinian Authority to make that happen? Palestinian Authority Mr Duncan: The structures are sorely stretched, which 3. Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): is why we continue to support the Palestinian Authority, What recent assessment she has made of the financial and of course we also urge other donors, particularly stability of the Palestinian Authority. [147429] the Arab states, to carry their fair share of commitment, because if the Palestinian Authority were to collapse The Minister of State, Department for International there is a serious danger that all prospects of proper Development (Mr Alan Duncan): We estimate that the peace negotiations would collapse as well. Palestinian Authority’s funding gap in 2013 is likely to be at least $500 million, which will continue to make it Mali hard for it to pay salaries and deliver essential public services. The PA must of course show financial discipline 4. Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): What itself, but for it to become stable it is essential that discussions she has had with her counterparts in the international donors support it in a consistent manner, UN on reinstating bilateral aid to Mali. [147430] and that Israel eases its restrictions and meets its legal The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for obligations to transfer tax revenues. International Development (Lynne Featherstone): The UK Government do not have a bilateral aid programme Mike Freer: I thank the Minister for that answer, but in Mali, but we are the second-largest humanitarian is he aware that British aid donations to the Palestinian donor, providing £13 million in 2013. We have had Authority general budget are being used to pay salaries discussions with our EU and multilateral partners, including of up to £2,000 a month to convicted Palestinian terrorists, the UN, on the importance of co-ordinated resumption many of whom have been properly convicted? What of aid. assurances can the Government provide that no further UK aid donations will be spent in that way? Chris Evans: Bilateral aid from the EU and the World Bank provides a key step in protecting people in Mali Mr Duncan: I can assure my hon. Friend that we have from drought and violence. What steps have the a system in place under which DFID’s support to the Government taken to ensure that that aid is reinstated Palestinian Authority is used specifically to pay for the as soon as possible? 291 Oral Answers13 MARCH 2013 Oral Answers 292

Lynne Featherstone: The hon. Gentleman makes an Justine Greening: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely important point. We are encouraging the resumption of right to raise that issue. About 75% of the refugees are aid by bilateral partners. In May, there will be a donor women and children. As I said in my opening answer, conference on Mali, which is an important step, not just we are formally pressing the UN to make sure that the as a pledging conference. There is a political crisis in most vulnerable refugees are taken into particular Mali, and the solution is political, which is why we consideration in the construction of plans to support welcome the recent announcement by the Malian authorities them. We have worked with UNICEF, for example, to to initiate a commission on dialogue and reconciliation. provide not just medical assistance but care and counselling for many families, including children who have been Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): I thank my hon. through utterly traumatic events. Friend for her encouraging answer, but may I ask her to go further and consider whether the UK Government Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): Will my right could work with France and the EU to address the hon. Friend outline what steps we can take to protect fragility across the region and deliver co-ordinated and refugees trying to get from Syria into Turkey? At present, sustained development assistance to the Sahel and the they face fire from Syrian forces. whole region? Lynne Featherstone: I thank my right hon. Friend. Justine Greening: As my hon. Friend points out, the This very issue was discussed at the recent Development journeys that many people make en route to refugee Ministers meeting. Stability in the Sahel—the wider camps are fatal in some cases or near fatal in others. It is region—is of absolute importance. The UK has committed extremely worrying that, for example, the Syrian £78 million in humanitarian support to the Sahel through Government continue to refuse humanitarian access various United Nations agencies, and we continue to from Turkey into Syria. We have to work through work right across the region to create stability and political and diplomatic routes, but I can assure him peace. that the Government are playing a leading role in making sure that when refugees get out of that country Syria we support them and that, through impartial, independent humanitarian organisations we are still getting support 5. Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): What recent to people who remain in Syria too. assessment she has made of the refugee situation in Syria. [147431] Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Will the The Secretary of State for International Development Secretary of State outline what aid has already been (Justine Greening): Last week saw the terrible landmark granted by her Government to help the refugee crisis in of 1 million Syrian refugees registered or awaiting Syria? Is it her intention to increase that aid to alleviate registration in the region. A further 2 million people are this human tragedy? displaced within Syria. Last week, I raised with the UN the issue of preventing violence against women and Justine Greening: We have so far earmarked £140 million girls in this and indeed other humanitarian situations of aid overall. That is split partly as support for refugees and ensuring that funding supports this. outside Syria but, as the hon. Gentleman points out, a substantial portion is aimed at supporting people within Martin Horwood: I welcome the reply from the Secretary Syria. It provides support in the form not just of food of State and the UK’s commitment, but World Vision and shelter but of medical assistance. tells me that counting those unregistered as well as registered there could be as many as 1 million refugees Peacekeeping and Defence Operations in Lebanon alone. Does she agree that if catastrophe is to be prevented for those people and their host countries we need to make sure that donor countries such as the 6. John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): Gulf states play their part and that assistance reaches What plans the Government have to increase the unregistered as well as registered refugees? proportion of the aid budget that is spent on peacekeeping and defence operations; and if she will Justine Greening: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. make a statement. [147432] When I visited Jordan earlier this year, I saw for myself how many refugees were not in the camp. Indeed, the The Secretary of State for International Development majority are in communities outside the camp, which is (Justine Greening):The Department for International one reason why we have earmarked specific funding to Development and the Ministry of Defence are working support, both in Jordan and Lebanon, those refugees together within existing international rules on official who are not in camps. Clearly, as the crisis continues, development assistance spending to consider how we the pressures on neighbouring countries will grow. The can better use Government resources in dealing with Government are deeply concerned about that, which is the humanitarian and development aspects of conflict why we have urged members of the international community and instability around the world. to work together to take action. Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): John Robertson: The National Audit Office and the Keeping in mind the fact that more than half the Independent Commission for Aid Impact have both refugees in Syria are children, will the Secretary of State been critical of the effectiveness of the conflict pool. tell the House exactly what the Department is doing to What steps is the Secretary of State taking to reform support child health, protection and education in this and strengthen these mechanisms in the cross-departmental humanitarian disaster? work? 293 Oral Answers13 MARCH 2013 Oral Answers 294

Justine Greening: As the hon. Gentleman will be Mr Duncan: I am aware of that puppet show, put on aware, the conflict pool is a relatively new mechanism to in a funded community centre, and I am grateful to my ensure that the Foreign Office, the Ministry of Defence hon. Friend for raising it. It was an utterly stupid and and my own Department work more closely together in irresponsible way of corrupting an otherwise sensible fragile and conflict-ridden situations where we know no-smoking message. It was performed not by an NGO, that partnering up can make a difference. We look with but by a visiting organisation. No UK or UN funds had interest at the reports from ICAI and the National anything whatever to do with sanctioning this performance, Audit Office, and we are looking in the next spending and the community centre itself was angered by the review to see how we can strengthen the process and the content and made its own disapproval very clear. effectiveness of the way in which the conflict pool works. Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): I agree with the Minister that it is very important that we Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): Will oppose all those who promote hate in the middle east. the Secretary of State welcome the comments by the May I invite him to say that we must also stand with Prime Minister that ODA funding can, in some dangerous those human rights organisations in Israel and in Palestine environments, be used by the military to provide overseas that stand out against hate crimes such as the so-called humanitarian aid and development assistance and begin price tag attacks? the process of stabilisation? Mr Duncan: It is essential that we make a stand Justine Greening: My hon. Friend raises an important against the incitement of hate from either side in any issue. The Prime Minister is right to say that we should way. I share the hon. Gentleman’s commitment to doing be open to new ideas about how my Department and so in his great understanding of this issue. the MOD can work more closely together. As my hon. Friend will be aware, the existing ODA guidelines clearly Topical Questions set out what spend can be counted as ODA and what cannot be, but things such as peacekeeping fall within the ODA definition and we should look at how we can T1. [147442] Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): If work more closely with the Ministry of Defence. she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities. 13. [147439] Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): Will that policy not simply take us back to the trade for The Secretary of State for International Development aid days of the 1990s, when predatory western (Justine Greening): Since the last oral questions, I have Governments behaved like payday loan companies and updated the House on the Syrian humanitarian conference developing countries spent more on servicing debt than in Kuwait and on the Department’s work to support on helping people? girls and women. This week I made a speech to the London stock exchange and answered in the House on Justine Greening: I think the hon. Lady might have how my Department will up its game on driving economic asked a supplementary question that related to a different development in new and emerging markets. I attended question on the Order Paper, but we should be looking the informal meeting of Development Ministers in Dublin at trade as well as aid. That is the route to sustained in February and the high-level panel meeting on the poverty reduction. millennium development goals after 2015 in Monrovia at the end of January, and I look forward to attending Palestinian Authority the next high-level panel and global partnership steering committee meetings in Indonesia at the end of this 7. Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) month. (Con): What processes are in place to ensure that non-governmental organisations in the Palestinian Kelvin Hopkins: Will the Secretary of State make a Authority that are funded by the UK, the EU and the statement on what her Department’s new relationship UN do not promote incitement of hate. [147433] with India will be once all financial aid is withdrawn in 2015? The Minister of State, Department for International Development (Mr Alan Duncan): We deplore incitement Justine Greening: It will feature technical assistance on either side of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, including to help the Indian Government get the most out of their any comments that could stir up hatred and prejudice. own £50 billion investment in health and education. It UK, EU and UN-funded NGOs in the Occupied will involve returnable capital projects, which will help Palestinian Territories are subject to rigorous due diligence to drive economic growth in India. I will also work assessments designed to ensure that funds are used only across Government to ensure that our trade relationship for legitimate development purposes. develops.

Gordon Henderson: I welcome the Minister’s answer, T4. [147445] Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): As the but in east Jerusalem last year a UN-funded Palestinian Secretary of State knows, I am hugely encouraged by NGO performed a puppet show promoting non-smoking. the Government’s commitment to fighting female This well intentioned educational message was corrupted genital mutilation, a commitment that has been warmly somewhat when the children were urged to replace welcomed by the Inter-African Committee and other cigarettes with machine guns. Will the Minister assure grass-roots campaigners. I urge her to continue to be me that no British financial aid donations, direct or guided by their evidence on what works best in indirect, are being used to fund such propaganda? combating this deeply harmful practice. 295 Oral Answers13 MARCH 2013 Oral Answers 296

Justine Greening: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. and language are secure are far more likely to want to It is critical that efforts to end FGM are evidence-based, be part of a lasting peace and development for the which is why we are investing in research to build the region? evidence base on what is the most effective approach to ending FGM. FGM is unacceptable wherever it happens Justine Greening: My hon. Friend is absolutely right in the world, including the UK, and we should never to point out that reconciliation will ultimately come turn a blind eye. from all the parties around the table having a clear understanding of one another. Mali is an incredibly Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab): On Monday I large county, which is one of the reasons we need to asked the Secretary of State whether private companies work hard on the process. Ultimately, we need to seek a receiving DFID support will have to demonstrate political resolution; a military one is only a short-term transparency on their tax arrangements and good practice option. with regard to employment practices, including pay, throughout their supply chain. She did not give me an T2. [147443] Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) answer. Will she now put that right? (Lab): What conversations has the Secretary of State had with her G8 counterparts to galvanise Justine Greening: The hon. Gentleman seems to have international support for action on tax avoidance in failed to listen to the speech I made and the answers I developing countries? gave to his urgent question earlier this week. The bottom line is that we know that economic development is Justine Greening: We have had many, many discussions. ultimately the way to end aid dependency. We want to The hon. Lady will be delighted to hear, I hope, that tax see an end to aid dependency through jobs. He is avoidance and tax evasion will be one of the agenda writing off the contribution our companies are making, items that this country will put on the table when we which I think is wrong. Ultimately, he sees only the risks host the G8 this year as part of our presidency. My of business, which of course we want to work to mitigate, right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will but we also have to see the opportunities. lead on that effort.

Mr Lewis: No answer, yet again. Turning to another T7. [147448] Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) private sector issue, the Secretary of State has refused to (Con): Representatives of the IF campaign whom I publish the findings of the report she commissioned met at Lancaster university last week expressed their into the use of private consultants. Can she explain why gratitude for this Government’s continued commitment in October last year, three months after the £90 million towards a 0.7% spend, but they also wondered about Growth and Employment in States project in Nigeria our progress with the international voluntary was assessed as having produced virtually no results at guidelines on the good governance of land, fisheries all, Ministers authorised the payments of an additional and forestry. £7 million for GEMS 3 to the consultant responsible? How many other consultants have received further funding Justine Greening: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for despite extremely poor performance? that question. The UK welcomes the successful global negotiation of the voluntary guidelines on land tenure Justine Greening: I will take no lectures from the hon. and is now pushing for their national implementation, Gentleman on how we use consultants. He never signed including through the G8, so that we can help share best off a single consultancy contract when he was a Minister practice and improve land governance. in the Department. The reality is that I have brought forward clear expectations and guidelines on how we T3. [147444] Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): work with suppliers. Ultimately, I sign off on the contracts. According to figures from Amnesty International a I will take no lectures from someone who spent £7,000 staggering 87% of women in Afghanistan will in his constituency using consultants to help organise experience violence in their lives. What steps is the public meetings. [Interruption.] Secretary of State taking to prioritise and adequately focus efforts to combat violence against women and Mr Speaker: Order. There are far too many very girls in Afghanistan? noisy private conversations. It is difficult to hear the questions, let alone the answers. Let us have a bit of Justine Greening: The hon. Lady will know that this order for Mr Dan Rogerson. is an issue about which I am particularly concerned. It is vital that we do not lose the gains that have been T6. [147447] Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): In made in women’s rights in Afghanistan as we see troop considering future development in Mali, will the draw-down. That is one of the reasons why I have made Secretary of State—[Interruption.] the issue of women and girls and, in particular, violence a country-strategic priority for our work in Afghanistan. Mr Speaker: Order. I have asked Members to stop doing that. It is rude to the Member on his or her feet. It T8. [147449] Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): Will had stopped for several years. It had better stop in the Government put the use of food for fuel on the future. agenda of the G8 food summit this June?

Dan Rogerson: I took it as personal support, Mr Speaker, Justine Greening: A range of things will be discussed and was very grateful for it. at the G8. I assure my hon. Friend that I have no doubt Will the Department ensure that it considers the that our food and nutrition work, which we are carrying position of the Berber people in Mali and the surrounding out alongside the G8 efforts, will be one of the topics of countries, because those who feel that their culture discussion. 297 Oral Answers13 MARCH 2013 Oral Answers 298

PRIME MINISTER Edward Miliband: The right hon. Gentleman obviously could not tell us about his policy on minimum unit pricing for alcohol. The reality is that he has been The Prime Minister was asked— overruled by the Home Secretary on that one. Engagements Let us turn to another thing that the Prime Minister has said that we cannot trust. In his speech last Thursday, he said that the independent Office for Budget Responsibility is Q1. [147452] Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab): If he will list his official “absolutely clear that the deficit reduction plan is not responsible” engagements for Wednesday 13 March. for low growth. That is not what the OBR says. Will he acknowledge that today? The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): This morning The Prime Minister: Just returning to the right hon. I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others Gentleman’s earlier question, the interesting thing— and, in addition to my duties in this House, I shall have [Interruption.] I will answer his question. The interesting further such meetings later today. thing about British politics right now is that I have the top team that I want and he has the top team that I Tom Blenkinsop: We all know that the Prime Minister want too. Long may they continue. believes there is no alternative to his double-dip, his double-debt or his loss of the triple A credit rating, but The point of the Office for Budget Responsibility is is he aware that his Back Benchers and some of his that it is independent. Everyone should accept everything Cabinet believe there is an alternative to him? that it says, and I do. We should look at what it says about why growth has turned out to be lower than it The Prime Minister: What this Government are delivering forecast. It said that are 1 million private sector jobs and the fastest rate of “we concluded from an examination of the…data that the impact new business creation in this country’s history. We have of external inflation shocks, deteriorating export markets, and financial sector and eurozone difficulties were more likely paid down the deficit by 25% and have cut immigration explanations.” by a third. We have a long, hard road to travel, but we are going in the right direction. To be fair to the shadow Chancellor, his own press release says: James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): “The OBR says they are yet to be persuaded” I am sure that the Prime Minister will wish to add his by the case that he makes. Given that his plans are more condolences to the family and friends of Christina spending, more borrowing and more debt, the country Edkins, who was murdered on a bus to school in my will never be persuaded. constituency last Thursday morning. Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister is clearly living The Government have rightly introduced minimum in a fantasy land. He wants us to believe that the head custodial sentences for people convicted of threatening of the Office for Budget Responsibility wrote him an someone with a knife, but does the Prime Minister open letter the day after his speech because he enjoyed it agree that it is time to introduce a legal assumption that so much and agreed with it so much. Actually, what he people carrying a knife intend to use it and should said in the letter was: attract a prison sentence, so that we can redouble our “we believe that fiscal consolidation measures have reduced economic efforts to rid our communities of the scourge of knives? growth over the past couple of years”. The Prime Minister: I think that my hon. Friend Yesterday, we learned that industrial production is at its speaks for the whole House and, indeed, the whole lowest level for 20 years. That sets alarm bells ringing country on the absolute revulsion at this horrific crime. for everyone else in this country; why does it not for the I know that the whole House will wish to join me in Prime Minister? sending our sincere condolences to Christina Edkins’s The Prime Minister: The first point is that manufacturing family. declined as a share of our GDP faster under the We take knife crime extremely seriously, which is why, Government of which the right hon. Gentleman was a as my hon. Friend has said, we changed the law so that member than at any time since the industrial revolution. any adult who commits a crime with a knife can expect That is what happened: the decimation of manufacturing to be sent to prison, and for a serious offence they industry under 10 years of a Labour Government. He should expect a very log sentence. I will happily look at quotes from the Office for Budget Responsibility and I what my hon. Friend suggests. My right hon. Friend the accept everything that it says, but let me quote from the Justice Secretary is currently reviewing the powers available Institute for Fiscal Studies. It says that borrowing under to the courts to deal with knife possession and will Labour would be £200 billion higher. Does he accept bring forward proposals in due course. that forecast?

Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): In the Edward Miliband: It is good to see, for a second week light of his U-turn on alcohol pricing, is there anything running, that the right hon. Gentleman is getting into the Prime Minister could organise in a brewery? practice for Opposition. He had nothing to say about industrial production, but his own Business Secretary—the The Prime Minister: I would like to organise a party guy who is supposed to be in charge of these issues—is in the brewery in my constituency, to which the right going around telling anyone who will listen that the hon. Gentleman would be very welcome, to celebrate plan is not working. He says that that the shadow Chancellor should stay for a very long “we are now in a position where the economy is not growing in time on the Front Bench. the way it had been expected.” 299 Oral Answers13 MARCH 2013 Oral Answers 300

He goes on: The Prime Minister: Six questions, and not a single “We don’t want to be Japan with a decade of no growth.” positive suggestion for how to get on top of the deficit When the Prime Minister’s own Business Secretary calls that the right hon. Gentleman left, not a single suggestion for him to change course, is he speaking for the for how to deal with the massive welfare bills that we Government? were left, and not a single suggestion for how to improve standards in our schools. But I do know what he has The Prime Minister: Let me tell the right hon. Gentleman been doing over these last months, because I have been what is happening in industrial production. We are now passed—[Interruption.] producing more motor cars in this country than at any time in our history. Exports of goods to all the key Mr Speaker: Order. This answer must be heard. markets, such as India, China, Russia and Brazil, are increasing very rapidly. None of those things happened The Prime Minister: And it is a particularly interesting under a Labour Government when they trashed our one, because I have here a copy of the right hon. economy, racked up debts and nearly bankrupted the Gentleman’s diary and I know what he has been up to. country. These are the dinners that he has held to raise money from the trade unions in the last few weeks: the GMB, On capital spending, I think that we should spend USDAW, ASLEF, the TSSA, UCATT—£2.7 million, more money on capital. That is why we are spending dinosaur after dinosaur, dinner after dinner. They pay £10 billion more than was in the plans of the Government the money, they get the policies, but the country would of which the right hon. Gentleman was a member. We end up paying the price. should be using the strength of the Government balance sheet to encourage private sector capital. That is why, Q2. [147453] Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): It for the first time in its history, the Treasury is providing is national apprenticeship week. More than 1,500 those guarantees. The fact is that he wrecked the economy businesses in Kirklees are now offering apprenticeships, and put in place plans for capital cuts, and we are and we are becoming an official apprenticeship hub. investing in the country’s infrastructure. Will the Prime Minister join me in praising all the businesses in my area that are taking on apprentices, Edward Miliband: Never mind more car production, Kirklees college under the leadership of Peter it is “Taxi for Cameron” after that answer. McCann, which is offering vocational training, and all Things are so bad that the Government sent out the great young people who are going to see a positive Baroness Warsi at the weekend to say that she had “full future for our great nation? confidence” in the Prime Minister and that he had support from The Prime Minister: I will certainly join my hon. “large parts of his party.” Friend in what he says about national apprenticeship Maybe he even has the support of large parts of his week. It is an important moment for our country, Cabinet, I am not sure. Just a week from the Budget, the because over the past two and a half years we have seen Home Secretary goes out making speeches about the 1 million people start apprenticeships, and the run rate economy—I think the part-time Chancellor should is at more than half a million a year. That is very concentrate on the Budget—then she gets told off by important for our country, and what I want to see is a the Children’s Secretary, who is hiding down there by new norm where we recognise that people who leave the Chair, for jockeying for position. Is not the truth school should either be going to university or taking that it is not just the country that has lost confidence in part in an apprenticeship. That is the agenda and the the Chancellor and his economic plan but the whole ambition that we should set for young people and our Cabinet? country. The Prime Minister: The weakness in the right hon. Q3. [147454] Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull Gentleman’s argument is that my party has unanimous North) (Lab): Is it not the case that a couple who have support for his leadership, as long as he keeps the separated could still live in the same home without shadow Chancellor there. I have to say—[Interruption.] bedroom tax rules applying? Given that glaring loophole discouraging marriage, should not the Prime Mr Speaker: Order. It is very discourteous for Members Minister’s next U-turn be axing this cruel and to gesticulate so aggressively at the Prime Minister. Let shambolic tax altogether? us hear his answer. The Prime Minister: First of all, let me say once again The Prime Minister: What is remarkable, yet again, is that only the Labour party could call welfare reform a this—where is the argument on welfare? He has got no tax. A tax is when you earn money and the Government argument on welfare. Where is the argument on the take away some of your money. This is a basic issue of deficit? He has got nothing to say about the deficit. fairness. There is not a spare room subsidy for people in Where are his plans for getting the economy moving? private rented accommodation in receipt of housing He has got nothing to say. That is what is happening benefit, so we should ask why there is a spare room under his leadership—absolutely nothing apart from subsidy for people living in council houses and getting debt, debt and more debt. housing benefit. It is a basic issue of fairness and this Government are putting it right. Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister is absolutely hopeless, and today’s exchanges have shown it. A week Q4. [147455] Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): out from the Budget, they have an economic policy that Glossop Cartons in my constituency has just invested is failing, a Prime Minister who makes it up as he goes significantly in placing the world’s first order for the along and a Government who are falling apart, and all Euclid digital cutting and creasing machine. Tomorrow, the time it is the country that is paying the price. Nestlé opens its brand new, state-of-the-art bottling 301 Oral Answers13 MARCH 2013 Oral Answers 302 plant for the famous Buxton water, also in my Engagements constituency. Does my right hon. Friend agree that those significant investments show that this Q6. [147457] Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): In Government are making Britain well equipped to win 1997 there were no excess deaths in the mortality data the global race? at Mid Staffordshire hospital, but as early as 2002 there were 120 excess deaths. That figure rose year on year, The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely yet Labour Health Secretary after Labour Health right. We do see investment by large multinational Secretary did nothing apart from award the trust companies, such as Nestlé, which now recognise that we foundation status in 2009. In total, 1,197 excess deaths have one of the most competitive tax systems anywhere occurred, some of which were patients who died in in the world. KPMG recently reported that in just two their own faeces. Does the Prime Minister believe that years we have gone from having one of the least competitive the Mid Staffordshire scandal underlines the fact that corporate tax systems in the world, to having one of the Labour’s supposed claim to be the party of the NHS is most competitive. What has changed is the arrival of the greatest lie in British— this Chancellor and this Government who have put right the mess made by the Labour party. Mr Speaker: Order. [Interruption.] Order. Members may cheer, but first I am afraid the question was too Millennium Development Goals long, and secondly I ask the Prime Minister to bear in mind what is his responsibility and what is not, in a very Q5. [147456] Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside brief answer, and then we can move on. and Hillsborough) (Lab): What progress has been made by the high-level panel on the development of priorities The Prime Minister: My responsibility is to respond for the millennium development goals after 2015. properly to the Francis report, and I commend Francis for what he did. It is important to remember that it is The Prime Minister: I am proud to be leading the this Government who set up a proper, independent United Nations high-level panel on what should replace inquiry into the disgraces that happened at Mid Staffs. the millennium development goals when they expire in Everyone has to learn their lessons from what went 2015. In my view, we should put the strongest possible wrong, including Ministers in the previous Government, emphasis on attempting to banish extreme poverty from but I think we should listen to Francis when he says that the world, and that focus on extreme poverty should we should not seek scapegoats. What we need to do, come first and foremost. I also hope that, in replacing right across politics, the House and our country, is end and enhancing the millennium development goals, we any culture of complacency. I love our NHS; there are can for the first time look at what I call the golden some fantastic parts to our NHS, but in too many parts thread of things that help people and countries out of we do see—as my hon. Friend said—very bad figures poverty, which includes good government, lack of and we need to deal with them. corruption, the presence of law and order, justice and the rule of law. Those things can make a real difference. Q7. [147458] Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): In a few weeks we will be 15 years on since the Mr Blunkett: In view of proceedings so far I did not signing of the Good Friday agreement, and although expect to hear myself saying this, but I commend the devolution is in place, significant challenges remain Prime Minister on the work he is doing on that panel in delivering on the agreement’s full potential and in seeking to hold to the international development and the commitments contained within it to build budget. At a moment when we are asking people to give reconciliation, unequivocal support for the rule of law, generously through Comic Relief this weekend, will he and to deal comprehensively with the past and its identify one group of people who were not included in legacy. Does the Prime Minister agree that there must the millennium development goals and who are often be renewed urgency in progressing those outstanding excluded from society and education—those severely issues, and will he outline, in light of this week’s disabled young people who face grinding poverty, ill positive engagement with the Irish Taoiseach, the rule health and the disadvantage of those disabilities? Will he sees for both Governments as joint custodians of the the Prime Minister give priority to them in developments agreement in moving that forward? over the next two years?

The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman makes Mr Speaker: The question was, again, too long. a very good point about helping disabled people across the world, and we should make sure that the framework The Prime Minister: I thank the hon. Lady for her we look at properly includes those people. On the wider question and for her very constructive work in Northern issue of our aid budget, I know it is contentious and I Ireland. I know that the whole House wants to wish her know it is difficult, but I believe we should not break a well with the difficulties that she and her office have promise that we made to the poorest people in our faced in recent weeks. world. To those who have their doubts I say that of I think there is of course a responsibility for the course there is a strong moral case for our aid budget, Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister to work together, but there is also a national security case. It is remarkable and we had a very good set of meetings this week; but that the broken countries—countries affected by conflict— the greatest possible responsibility lies with the devolved have not met one single millennium development goal institutions. It is great that they are working and that among them. By helping to mend those countries, often the agreement has bedded down, but I would appeal to through security work as well as aid work, we can help the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister and all the poorest in our world. those involved in the Assembly to put away the conflicts 303 Oral Answers13 MARCH 2013 Oral Answers 304 of the past, work on a shared future for the people of changes to visas are likely to suppress the number of Northern Ireland, start to take down the segregation, visitors coming, particularly from Brazil? What can we the peace walls and the things that take people apart in do to ensure that the Border Agency does not become a Northern Ireland, find the savings from those things growth suppressant to the UK? and invest in a better future for everyone in Northern Ireland. The Prime Minister: I am happy to say to my hon. Ministerial Visits Friend that the National Security Council met recently to consider some of these border issues and has decided Q8. [147459] Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): not to put visas on to Brazilian nationals. We want to When he next expects to visit Mid Derbyshire work with the Brazilians and ensure that we enhance constituency. border security; but, in defence of the Home Office and the UKBA, there have been great improvements in the The Prime Minister: I have no immediate—sorry. I time spent processing visas and we are looking at a look forward to visiting Mid Derbyshire soon. I very number of steps to ensure that we attract tourists from much enjoyed my recent visit to Derbyshire, when I the fastest-growing markets, including China and elsewhere. went to the Toyota factory, in which many of my hon. Friend’s constituents work, and I am sure I will be back Q10. [147461] Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/ there soon. Co-op): Does the Prime Minister accept that families face a triple whammy in meeting the costs of child Pauline Latham: I know that my right hon. Friend is care? Places are plummeting, costs are going up and the quite rightly taking a proactive role in leading trade average family has lost more than £1,500 a year in missions to India and other countries. Does he agree support. Therefore, does he also accept that any that small manufacturing companies such as those based measure he may announce next week to help with the in Mid Derbyshire should also be given the chance to costs of child care will be small remedy for a crisis of play their part in driving Britain’s exports to emerging his own making? markets such as India, China and the rest? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely The Prime Minister: I do not accept what the hon. right. We have improved our performance in terms of Lady says, because it is this Government who extended exports and goods, as I said earlier, to these key emerging the number of hours to three and four-year-olds and markets, but the real challenge is to get SMEs exporting. introduced, for the first time, child care payments for If we could increase the figure—I think the figure vulnerable two-year-olds. We have also lifted 2 million is—from one in five to one in four, we would wipe out people out of tax altogether. Someone on a minimum our trade deficit and create many jobs and a lot of wage working full time has seen their income tax bill cut investment at the same time. I have led trade missions to in half. I know that the hon. Lady wants to try to put every single G20 country, apart from Argentina, and I people off a very major step forward—when we will be look forward to doing more in the future. I will certainly helping people who work hard, who want to do the include SMEs, and perhaps some from my hon. Friend’s right thing and who want child care for their children—but constituency. that is what we will be announcing, and I think it will be welcome. Engagements Q11. [147462] Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Q9. [147460] Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): Hykeham) (Con): Britain is in a global race not just If the Prime Minister’s Government succeed in closing with our traditional competitor economies but with four A and E departments in west London, those countries such as Brazil, Russia, India and China. departments will be replaced by privately owned clinics Ahead of the Budget next week, will my right hon. and out-of-hours services. Some of those leading the Friend tell the House what assessment he has made of closure programme have already profited by up to £2.6 where we would be likely to finish in that race if we million each from their ownership of those primary abandoned our deficit reduction programme and relied care services. Does he think that personal financial gain on some magical faraway tree of money, as the should debar GPs and others from taking part in Opposition recommend? decisions on hospital closures? The Prime Minister: I do not think the hon. Gentleman The Prime Minister: My hon. and learned Friend is right in any part of his question. The first point I makes an important point. One of the most important would make is that the NHS in north-west London is reasons for continuing to get our deficit down is that it going to be getting £3.6 billion this year. That is £100 is absolutely essential to have the low interest rates that million more than the year before. Under this Government, are essential for home owners and for businesses. If we we are increasing the investment. As for the changes he listened to the Labour party and abandoned those talks about, if they are referred to the Health Secretary, plans, we would have more spending, more borrowing he will of course consider whether they are in the best and more debt—exactly the things that got us into this interests of patients, and that is the right process to mess in the first place. follow. Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The price of John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) petrol and diesel at the pumps is set to rise to near (LD): The Prime Minister will, I am sure, be aware of record levels in the near future, and the resulting rise in the strong contribution made to the British economy by the cost of living is causing real problems for our the inbound tourism industry. Does he therefore share constituents. We know what the Government have already my concern, as expressed by the Tourism Alliance, that done, but will the Prime Minister reassure the House 305 Oral Answers13 MARCH 2013 Oral Answers 306 today that further action will be taken to cut the toxic has done incredible work for people with disabilities fuel duty tax and bring petrol and diesel prices down, to over many years. It is making the most of the extraordinary help hard-pressed motorists, families and industry? changes in technology. When I visited it recently, we looked at a whole raft of ways in which we could make The Prime Minister: Of course I will listen carefully sure that the NHS is making these things available to to what the right hon. Gentleman says, but petrol and more people, and I am very committed to working with diesel prices are 10p a litre lower than they would have my hon. Friend and the ACE centre to make sure that been had we stuck to the absolutely toxic plans that that happens. were put in place by the Labour party. We have taken action, and we are doing everything we can with the Q15. [147466] Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) cost of living. That is why we are legislating to get (Lab): Prime Minister, you gave a promise to protect people on to the lowest gas or electricity tariff, why we the defence budget in its entirety, but you did not. The have taken 2 million out of tax and why we have frozen Defence Secretary, who has left the Chamber, promised the council tax; and I hope that we can do more to help to balance the budget, but the National Audit Office people. said he failed. Prime Minister, will you now guarantee that there will be no— Q12. [147463] Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): The Prime Minister is right: this Government do have a good record on fuel duty. We are paying 10p a litre less Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman has been on the mainland and 15p a litre less on islands than here 16 years. He should not use the word “you” in the under Labour, but the rising price of fuel in a Chamber. I am sorry, but he knows the rules. Come on, widespread area such as Argyll and Bute is causing real quickly, finish the question. problems, and I hope that there will be good news in the Budget. For a start, will the Chancellor be able to Mr Brown: Will a commitment be given to protect the announce that the September fuel duty increase defence budget further in this Parliament? inherited from Labour will be cancelled? The Prime Minister: The commitment I can give is The Prime Minister: I am grateful for what my hon. that the £38 billion black hole that we inherited has Friend says about what the Government have already been got rid of. Freezing the budget across this Parliament done on fuel duty. He omitted to say that we had also at £33 billion gives us the fourth largest defence budget taken the step to help far-flung and island communities in the world, and we are determined to use that money such as the one he represents with special conditions, to to ensure that we equip our forces with what they need try to help with this major aspect. In many cases, people for the future. That is in massive contrast to the record who live in his constituency do not have a choice but to of the Government whom he supported. use a car, and we have to respect that.

Q13. [147464] Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): Mr Stephen O’Brien (Eddisbury) (Con): Given the Will the Prime Minister benefit personally from the appalling nursing care standards revealed at Stafford millionaires’ tax cut? and the Government’s welcome boost to apprenticeships across the professions, does the Prime Minister agree The Prime Minister: Let me say to the hon. Gentleman that now is the time to re-examine whether the nursing that I will pay all of the taxes that I am meant to. profession should remain all-degree or whether we should [Interruption.] Let me just point out one small point. I get back to training at patients’ bedsides? had a letter this week which I thought people might enjoy. It is from Ed who lives in Camden. It says this: “I The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important am a millionaire. I live in a house worth £2 million point. I do not think we want a de-professionalisation which I got through a combination of inheritance and of nursing—huge improvements have been made in the property speculation. I am worried that if I sell my professional skills and training of nurses—but we have house and buy another one, I will have to pay the to get back to ensuring that patient care is at the heart 7% stamp duty that the wicked Tories have introduced. of nursing. No one can be a good nurse without those Under Labour, we talked about fairness but we never things, so we need to return to such values. made the rich pay more. What should a champagne socialist like me do?” Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): Prime Minister. I do not expect you to know the full Q14. [147465] Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and details— Cleveleys) (Con): I know that the Prime Minister recently visited the ACE Centre in Oxford, and I am sure that he shares my view that it does a fantastic job Mr Speaker: Order. We must get out of this bad habit helping young and disabled people to communicate of Members using the word “you” in the Chamber. more effectively using technical aids. What guarantees “You” refers to the Chair. Please address the House can he give that augmentative and assistive through the Chair. communication aids will be made available to more young people than is currently the case, so that Jim Sheridan: Mr Speaker, I do not expect the Prime everyone who could benefit from them is able to do so? Minister to know the full details, or indeed to be directly responsible, but against the background of “We’re all in The Prime Minister: I am really grateful to my hon. this together”, does he think it fair that the lowest-paid Friend for raising this issue. The ACE centre, which was workers in this place have been offered a 1% increase, previously in Oxford and is now located in my constituency, while senior managers have been offered 5%? 307 Oral Answers13 MARCH 2013 Oral Answers 308

The Prime Minister: That is a matter for the House Mrs Siân C. James (Swansea East) (Lab): I am sure authorities, not for me. The point I would make, however, the Prime Minister is aware of the Visteon pension is that we have frozen public sector pay at 1%, which we action group, whose members we are meeting outside at think is fair. The extraordinary thing about Labour’s 12.30 today. We would like to invite him to join a position is that it supports that 1% increase for public cross-party group of MPs who will be meeting them on sector workers, but thinks that people on welfare should this important date—the fourth anniversary of their be getting more than 1%. That seems to be an extraordinary campaign. set of priorities. Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): Whenever alcohol The Prime Minister: I shall consider the hon. Lady’s is too cheap, more people die. I know the Prime Minister remarks carefully. I have a meeting almost straight after wants to reduce avoidable early mortality and cut violent Prime Minister’s questions with the leader of her party crime. Will he meet me so that I can explain to him the to discuss the Leveson proposals, and it might not be evidence base behind minimum pricing and how possible to rearrange my diary, but may I say how abandoning this policy would critically undermine the important it is that we support pensioners and achieve future efforts of those who want to do something about proper dignity for people in old age? this?

The Prime Minister: I am always happy to meet my Mike Thornton (Eastleigh) (LD): Does the Prime hon. Friend. We have had many discussions about this Minister agree that the results in Eastleigh, where Labour issue over the past two and a half years. There is a failed to gain anything at all, show that the Leader of problem with deeply discounted alcohol in supermarkets the Opposition’s policies are completely without support and other stores, and I am determined to deal with it. in the country? We have published proposals, and are considering the results of the consultation on them, but we must be in no doubt that we must deal with the problem of 20p or The Prime Minister: I welcome the hon. Gentleman 25p cans of lager being available in supermarkets. It has to the House of Commons, and if he asks questions like got to change. that, I think he will get along just fine. 309 13 MARCH 2013 310

Point of Order Bishops (Consecration of Women) Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order 12.34 pm No. 23) Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Will you inform the House 12.37 pm about whether you have been notified of any problems Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I with the Government’s online petition system? There beg to move, have been a number of what No. 10 has described as That leave be given to bring in a Bill to enable women to be “glitches” in the registration of signatures relating to consecrated as bishops in the Church of England; and for connected the Shrewsbury 24 e-petition. Will you advise us about how purposes. people using their democratic right to secure a debate in This is a straightforward one-clause Bill, allowing this House can register their support for the campaign women to become bishops in the Church of England. I spearheaded by Ricky Tomlinson who, along with five am introducing it today because of what happened in of his colleagues, was jailed and who has long campaigned General Synod last November. During the lead-up to for the clearance of all the names of the 24? that vote, 42 out of the 44 diocesan synods voted for women bishops, and at the November meeting of General Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Synod, the House of Bishops and the House of Clergy his attempted point of order. The short answer is that I voted in favour and it was only because the House of have been informed of problems only by the hon. Laity did not reach the two-thirds threshold that it Gentleman through his point of order. The matter is a narrowly failed to pass. responsibility not for the Chair, but for Ministers. If In 1992, the Church voted to ordain women into the there are glitches, it is for Ministers to answer the hon. priesthood. This happened 150 years after the start of Gentleman. I trust that he will pursue the matter through the deaconess movement and after many decades of them. debate on women’s ordination in the Church. It was expected that, in time, we would see women becoming John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): Further bishops. In fact, in 2006 Synod started to look at to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Some months ago, a admitting women to the episcopate. The theological number of Members joined the Shrewsbury pickets to argument had been won. submit their application for an investigation into their In 1992, however, provision was also made for those case by the Criminal Cases Review Commission. That who could not accept the ordination of women—and review commission’s work can be completed only with the so-called “flying bishops”were created. In an excellent full access to Government documents. Within weeks, booklet “Like the Wideness of the Sea: Women Bishops the Government took a decision to extend the 30-year and the Church of England”, the author Maggi Dawn rule on these documents, thus taking it beyond the described examples of the treatment she received from lifetime of most of the pickets. I am writing to the some within the church who were unwilling or unable to Prime Minister to get him to intervene to secure justice accept her as a woman priest. On her first day at college, by releasing those papers. If we do not receive a positive for example, she received a leaflet, saying “A woman’s response from the Prime Minister—this is an urgent place is not at the altar but in the kitchen; put on an matter because of the old age of many of the pickets— apron and get back to where you belong”. She also would you consider a request for an urgent question in hoped in the booklet that when the final piece of the the coming weeks? jigsaw was completed with women becoming bishops, this would finally confirm the Church’s full acceptance Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, of women’s ministry once and for all. who is an ingenious as well as an extremely assiduous Twenty years on from those first women being ordained, Member. I note what he says, but I hope he will understand we have some highly experienced women who should be and not take it in any sense as a put down if I say that I considered for appointment as bishops. We now need to am not going to entertain a hypothetical question. As break that stained-glass ceiling. It is the next logical the late Lord Whitelaw was wont to say, I am inclined to step, and it is needed to give credibility to the Church say that on the whole it is advisable to cross bridges only on the role of women’s ministry and to ensure that we when we come to them. I feel sure that the hon. Gentleman have the very best individuals leading our church. will use the resources of the Order Paper and other Last week, on 8 March, international women’s day, I mechanisms of debate to pursue his concerns. had a meeting with women clergy in Hull, East Yorkshire, which had been arranged by the Bishop of Hull. What an amazing group of ordained women that was—intelligent, compassionate, witty, warm and very, very wise. They are a huge asset to the Church. They told me of their roles: working with young people on tough inner-city estates, working in small rural communities, visiting the terminally ill in their own homes, and providing support for young families in their parishes. Many of those women talked of their feelings about the Synod’s decision, which they believed undermined their work in the Church, in their communities and in their role as priests. Tellingly, they mentioned the number of members of the general public who had spoken to them after the decision, saying how shocked and sorry 311 Bishops (Consecration of Women)13 MARCH 2013 Bishops (Consecration of Women) 312 they were, and, most important, saying that people Agreeing to allow women bishops in the Church of thought the Church was out of step with the modern England is very much about valuing women priests. It is world, and looked ridiculous and eccentric. also about respecting the equality laws and norms that We know that many of the people whom a Church of we have established in this country. I am shocked to England priest will meet each day are not regular learn that men and women properly ordained by women churchgoers, but ordinary members of the public who bishops in other provinces of the Anglican communion look to the Church to be there at important times in are not recognised here. That has to be wrong as well. It their lives, to baptise babies, to marry people, and to is often said that women should not ask or demand, but comfort the bereaved. Ordinary people want to see the should just “play nicely”. However, I think it absolutely Church of England in action through the women and right for us to become angry about injustice, and about men who serve their local communities. They certainly the incoherent muddle that we have now. The Church’s do not understand why it has taken such a backward document “Women in the episcopate: a new way forward” decision, given that women constitute a third of the lacks a sense of urgency for change. The two sides in the clergy and half the membership of the Church. Those current “conversations” are further apart than ever. It women have kept the Church going in communities all appears that opponents of women bishops will never over the country, and their voluntary work was the “big compromise. The rest of society has moved on, and the society” decades before the term was invented. Church now just looks very odd as a result of having taken this decision. A great deal of attention is often The Church has caused an enormous amount of hurt paid to those opposed to women bishops, but we know to women who have a calling to be ordained and serve that many men and women have already left the Church the Church, but who have found that, as a result of the because of the treatment of women. Our established decision of the General Synod, their calling has been Church risks going down the path to becoming a sect—a sidelined. We are asked to believe, explicitly or implicitly, movement becoming a monument. that women are not quite as good as men. That would be news to Emmeline Pankhurst, Rosa Parks, Marie It has become clear that the Church needs to act Curie and hundreds of other women who have changed much more quickly to sort out the problem, and I history for the better. believe Parliament must be very clear about its view in order to assist the Church. In the words of Elvis Presley, Some people, even those who claim to support the we now need idea of women bishops, say that this is a matter solely for the Church, and that it must be left to sort itself out. “A little less conversation, a little more action”. The Church, however, is our national established Church, Those of us in this House who wish to see this change headed by our Head of State, Queen Elizabeth, the cannot pass by on the other side. We need to value the Defender of the Faith and the Supreme Governor: a work that thousands of women do in the Church, and woman of some note. We have 26 bishops sitting in the recognise their potential in terms of the work they wish other place in recognition of the Church of England’s to do. important role in lawmaking in this country. We have prayers every day in this place, led by a Church of 12.45 pm England chaplain, and we are fortunate to have an excellent woman in that role. Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): I rise with some trepidation to speak on this subject, first because I We have an Ecclesiastical Committee in Parliament, am not sure it is any of my business as I am not a whose job is to examine draft Measures presented to it member of the Church of England, but I do think it is by the Legislative Committee of the General Synod. It only fair that somebody—without necessarily forcing a reports to Parliament on whether it considers the Measures vote or being controversial—just mentions one or two to be expedient and to be supported, and it will generally points that are important for this House. Personally, I ask members of the Synod to assist it in its deliberations. am completely agnostic on this issue, and I think I In some circumstances, a conference of the Ecclesiastical should be, because it is not for me to— Committee and the Legislative Committee may be convened. So Parliament has a big role to play in the Mr Speaker: Order. I understand what the hon. Church of England, and the Church has a big role in Gentleman says about not necessarily forcing a Division, Parliament. I certainly do not seek to enable Parliament but in order to comply with the procedures that apply to to intervene in Church affairs lightly, but matters of ten-minute rule motions, if he wishes to speak it is discrimination are very serious, and we must speak up. necessary for him to make it clear that he is opposing As Parliamentarians, we should be particularly concerned the Bill. about the fact that, with any reform of the House of Lords now several years away and given the vote of the Mr Leigh: I oppose the Bill for the following reasons. General Synod last November, we are entrenching sex I am completely agnostic on this issue. The Church of discrimination in our Parliament by reserving 26 places England is not my Church and I think it is for the in the House of Lords for men only. The Lords is the Church of England to decide on it. That is important. only part of Parliament where women are not allowed In previous centuries when there were matters of controversy to take their place. I think that that is wholly wrong, within the Church of England, this House of Commons and that we must make it clear that such discrimination was very closely involved. Indeed, in the 1920s there is no longer acceptable in our Parliament. Many in the were great debates about the nature of the Prayer Book. Christian faith see waiting as a good thing—and, my The Church of England wanted to move forward in a goodness, we waited an enormous amount of time to liberal direction and to allow alternative versions of the get women priests—but waiting is not good if it just Bible to be read in their churches. There were debates in leads to repeated deferrals, and it is not good in terms of this House, and the House was more reactionary on the the lost years before a final decision is made. issue and opposed the reform. After those fierce debates, 313 Bishops (Consecration of Women)13 MARCH 2013 Bishops (Consecration of Women) 314

[Mr Leigh] for discrimination because all sorts of checks and balances were being put in place to protect it? Many people feel it was decided to move forward and in effect to give the passionately about same-sex marriage. They believe it is Church of England independence. That is why from the entirely wrong that the Church of England should 1920s we created the current modern governance system refuse to conduct weddings for same-sex couples, and in the Church of England whereby although it is in they are perfectly entitled to that view. They believe that theory an established Church—something I strongly to be discrimination on the part of the Church of approve of, because it is important that we give an England, but Parliament has decided that in that matter impression that we are still a Christian country— it the Church of England should be entirely independent. should also be independent of Parliament in terms of That is an entirely right point of view, so this Bill would doctrine and structure. embark on a dangerous course of action. I believe that is the modern, progressive and right I understand from conversations I have had, particularly thing to do. I do not think it is right that Members of those with our Second Church Estates Commissioner, Parliament, who are politicians, should decide how the that progress is being made on this subject, even though Church of England runs its own affairs, whether in strong beliefs are held in the House of Laity. Careful terms of the shape of the Prayer Book, who can become discussions are being held. The people who oppose this priests, or whether it can have women priests or women measure may not be right, but they are honourable bishops. It is not for us, as politicians, to make that people. They have sincere religious beliefs that should choice. surely be discussed in their own Church and not in There was a further advance. As you will know, Parliament. They believe—I am not commenting on Mr Speaker, until quite recently Prime Ministers had a whether this is right or wrong—that the Church of very wide degree of latitude in the appointment of England is the catholic church; although it is an established bishops. The last Labour Prime Minister withdrew from Church and an Anglican Church, it is a catholic church. that process all together, however, and there is now a It is based on the traditions of the Catholic Church that very careful procedure in the Church of England, with the apostles were all men. I am not going to get involved senior people in the Church deciding who will be bishops in all these arguments, but these people have strong and names then going to the Queen. Effectively, therefore, beliefs about that. I understand that progress is being the Church of England appoints its own bishops. That made and some compromise will be worked out whereby is entirely right. The Prime Minister is no shape involved. people who feel sincerely that their religious principles are threatened will have some sort of process to ensure For all those reasons, I think it would be extraordinarily that their bishops are of a traditional kind—men, not dangerous, and a retrograde step, if Parliament were women—and so on. That is the discussion taking place now to get involved, however strongly we feel about this at the moment. Let us be calm, cool and collected about issue, and even though everybody realises that there is this. Let us recognise that the Church of England will enormous interest in it and many people believe it is move at its own pace and let us not interfere, as politicians, absolutely right that women should become bishops. I in how the Church of England is run. ask the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) to accept, however, that many people Question put (Standing Order No. 23) and agreed to. also believe that the Church of England should be Ordered, independent. That Diana Johnson, Mr Ben Bradshaw, Barbara There is another reason that we must bear in mind, Keeley, Roberta Blackman-Woods, Andrew Gwynne, which the hon. Lady mentioned when she said, “Surely Helen Goodman, Barry Gardiner, Mr David Winnick, when matters of discrimination are involved, Parliament Mr Frank Field, Chris Bryant, Mrs Sharon Hodgson should get involved.” That is a dangerous state of and Lyn Brown present the Bill. affairs. Have we not been assured all through the debates Diana Johnson accordingly presented the Bill. about same-sex marriage that the Church of England Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on was absolutely secure and nobody could take it to court Friday 3 May 2013 and to be printed (Bill 148). 315 13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 316 (Programme No. 2) Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] (Programme Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me the opportunity No. 2) to open today’s proceedings on the Bill. We start with the programme motion, which doubles the time available Mr Speaker: I should inform the House that I have for the Report stage from one day to two. The House selected the amendment standing in the name of the may recall that the earlier programme motion allowed Leader of the Opposition. for only one day of deliberations at this stage. That was agreed by this House unopposed, but today’s motion 12.53 pm doubles the time available for Report and, as such, I The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy hope it will be welcome to the whole House. Within the Browne): I beg to move, two days available we will need to ensure that the That the Order of 14 January 2013 (Crime and Courts Bill existing provisions in the Bill are properly scrutinised. [Lords] (Programme)) be varied as follows: The Government have also tabled a number of amendments 1. Paragraphs 4 and 5 of the order shall be omitted. seeking to introduce new provisions into the Bill, including 2. Proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading shall be in response to amendments tabled in the other place, so concluded in two days. it is right that those, too, are properly considered by the 3. Proceedings on Consideration shall be taken on each of House. To ensure that that happens, the motion includes those days as shown in the following Table and in the order so a couple of knives on each of the two days for Report, shown. which will ensure that there is a fair allocation of time 4. Each part of the proceedings on Consideration shall (so far between discussion of the various issues. It is evident as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the from the volume of signatures attached to some time specified in relation to it in the second column of the Table. amendments that there is significant interest in a number TABLE of the issues to be debated, so we should facilitate such Time for conclusion of debate as far as is practicable. Proceedings proceedings Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): My hon. First Day Friend is trying get a balance on the scrutiny issue. Is New Clauses and new Three and a half hours the simple way of doing that not by trying to guess Schedules relating to the National after commencement where the knives come but by simply not having a Crime Agency (except any relating of proceedings on the also to extradition, including Motion for this Order. programme motion and letting this House debate things, European arrest warrants); new as it should do, until it has scrutinised everything? That Clauses and new Schedules relating to is what we used to say in opposition, so why are we not proceeds of crime, except any relating saying it in government? also to legal aid; amendments to Part 1, Schedule 22, Clauses33 and 34 Mr Browne: If we were to do that in this specific case, and Schedules 17 and 18. we would default to having the one day of debate that New Clauses and new Schedules 7pm has been allowed for by this House; the Government are relating to drugs and driving or to expanding the opportunities for the hon. Gentleman by public order offences; amendments to introducing this programme motion to allow two days’ Clauses 41 and 42, Schedule 21, debate. On his more general point, I think it is fair to Clauses 16 to 19 and Schedules 9 to 14; new Clauses and new Schedules say that there is general agreement across the House relating to bailiffs; amendments to that legislation that is not timetabled at all is not the Clause 23, Clause 31 and Schedule 15. collective will of the House, if I can put it that way. Second Day Mr Bone rose— Remaining new Clauses and new Three hours before the Schedules standing in the name of a moment of Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC) rose— Minister of the Crown; remaining new interruption. Clauses relating to extradition Mr Browne: I will give way in a moment. I do not (including European arrest warrants); want to get too far off the beaten track, but I think that amendments to Clause 35, Schedule 19, Clauses 20 to 22, Clauses under the previous Government and under this one 24 to 30, Clause 32 and Schedule 16. there has been a presumption that scheduling business— Remaining new Clauses and new One hour before the with a few provisions made for financial legislation, for Schedules relating to protection of moment of example—is a sensible way to conduct our deliberations children or to vulnerable witnesses; interruption. in this House. This is not a debate about whether the remaining new Clauses and new procedures of the House have changed; it is about the Schedules relating to border control programme motion for this Bill. or deportation; amendments to Clauses 36 to 40 and Schedule 20; Mr Bone: We are seeing new Government policy here. remaining new Clauses and new This was never in the coalition agreement and, until Schedules (including any new Clauses now, it has not been the view of the coalition. The and new Schedules standing otherwise than in the name of a Minister of the coalition wants to have a business of the House Committee, Crown and relating to press conduct so that the Government would be taken completely out (regardless of anything else they relate of these programme motions. Is this another Liberal to)); amendments to Clauses 43 to 46; Democrat U-turn? remaining proceedings on Consideration. Mr Browne: As the last bit of that intervention was so 5. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously trite, I will give way to the right hon. Member for concluded) b brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) and then deal with on the second day. both interventions together. 317 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 318 (Programme No. 2) (Programme No. 2) Mr Llwyd: I just wish to make the point that there is I am grateful to the Minister for outlining the no unanimity across the House that every piece of Government’s view on the programme motion. We agree legislation should be programmed. I was a Member in that there are sufficient matters for debate to require the early ’90s, before the hon. Gentleman was elected to two days and I welcomed the Leader of the House’s this House, and under the Conservative Government of announcement last Thursday that we would have a that time programming was used rarely indeed and second day of debate, which, subject to confirmation in things seemed to work out all right. business questions tomorrow, will possibly be next Monday. The Bill covers a number of items that we need to Mr Browne: I was not wishing to get off the beaten discuss and even today, the Government have tabled track, and I did not say that there was unanimity in amendments on a range of measures on terrorism, the House. There may be Members who want to Northern Ireland and other matters that were considered debate the motions and business before the House until in Committee. Those are substantive issues that demand 5 or 6 o’clock every morning, and they are perfectly significant debate on the Floor of the House. Amendments entitled to take that view. All I am saying is that we have on a number of key issues have also been tabled by my come to a reasonably settled collective agreement that right hon. and hon. Friends on the Back Benches and some sort of timetabling of legislation gives clarity. The Members on the Government Benches, which would balance we are trying to obtain is between ensuring tend to lead us to conclude that we will need a second day. that clarity and providing sufficient scope for all the The discussion has not been about the order of the different points of view to be aired. That is why, as subjects for debate today, and I can say with relative I say, we are making generous provision in this ease that I am satisfied that we will have a full chance to programme motion for this stage of the deliberations debate the measures the Government have proposed. on this Bill. I am sure that the wider points that have The amendment to the programme motion is intended been made have been heard by my right hon. Friend to consider the debate on the second day, and particularly the Leader of the House and, indeed, by the shadow the order in which we will debate the different subjects. Leader of the House. They no doubt spend a lot of The Minister has helpfully said that a “supplementary time deliberating these matters and can now spend programme motion” will be tabled if the cross-party more time considering the issues raised this talks have concluded, “either with or without agreement”, afternoon. to allow debate of Leveson-related amendments to the I have an important and specific extra announcement Bill. I accept and welcome that, because the Opposition to make, which relates to the Leader of the Opposition’s are concerned that we should have the opportunity to amendment. The Government will also introduce a debate Leveson in full and that it should not be squeezed supplementary programme motion if the cross-party out by the other equally important measures that the talks have concluded—either with or without agreement—to Government and the Opposition will seek to debate. allow debate of Leveson-related amendments on the As those assurances have been given, I am minded to second day of business on this Bill. On that basis, both accept the Government’s programme motion on the coalition parties will support the programme motion, basis that the supplementary programme motion will having had the assurances that I have just delivered at guarantee a debate and, importantly, a vote on the the Dispatch Box, and will support the supplementary Leveson amendments or any new clause tabled by my motion. I hope that we will now get on and debate the right hon. and hon. Friends or by the Government. many important issues addressed in this Bill and in the amendments already tabled by right hon. and hon. Mr Speaker: Order. I understand that new information Members. has just been disclosed to the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), but may I ask for the purposes of 12.59 pm clarification whether he is moving the amendment or Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): I beg to move whether he is just speaking about the motion? I think he amendment (a), from “Second day”, leave out from had fully intended not just to move his amendment but beginning to paragraph 5 and insert— to press it to a vote, since when the Minister of State has offered new information. If the right hon. Gentleman ‘Any new Clauses and new Schedules Two and a half hours does not wish to speak in support of his amendment, so relating to press conduct; remaining new before the moment of be it. He can speak about the motion, but he needs to Clauses and new Schedules standing in interruption. make that clear. the name of a Minister of the Crown; remaining new Clauses relating to Mr Hanson: I am supporting the amendment as well extradition (including European arrest warrants); amendments to Clause 35, as speaking about the motion, Mr Speaker. I wish to get Schedule 19, Clauses 20 to 22, some assurances from the Minister before the conclusion Clauses 24 to 30, Clause 32 and of the debate. We will then reflect on the Minister’s Schedule 16. response and decide whether to press the amendment to Remaining new Clauses and new One hour before the a vote. Schedules relating to protection of moment of children or to vulnerable witnesses; interruption.’. Mr Speaker: I think that it is clear that the right hon. remaining new Clauses and new Schedules relating to border control or Gentleman is moving the amendment and will decide deportation; amendments to Clauses 36 on whether to push it to a vote depending on any to 40 and Schedule 20; remaining new assurances he does or does not receive. Clauses and new Schedules; amendments to Clauses 43 to 46; Mr Hanson: If I may, Mr Speaker, I want to seek a remaining proceedings on Consideration. few assurances from the Minister before I resume my seat. 319 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 320 (Programme No. 2) (Programme No. 2) I am particularly keen for the Minister to consider The Opposition amendment effectively seeks to change what assurances he can give the House that there will be the order of discussion on that day, so that press conduct a guaranteed debate on the Leveson amendments and comes at the beginning and is not lost due to any lack of new clauses and that there will be an opportunity for time. I hope that the Minister will confirm that I understood the House to vote on them. the import of his speech, that the Government accept I also seek clarification—perhaps the Leader of the that desire and that, if there is a wish across the parties House could assist on this point—about whether the for the reversal of the order on the second day—if second day of consideration will be confirmed for Monday that is to be Monday, then on Monday—that can be 18 March—[Interruption.] I would be grateful if the accommodated. I thank the Minister and his colleagues Minister of State could listen to what I am saying, in the Home Office, the Office of the Leader of the because these are important matters that affect whether House and the Whips Offices of the two coalition we will support the motion. I have asked the Minister, parties for facilitating that change as well as the discussions as the Leader of the House is in the Chamber, whether that I know have taken place with the Labour Front-Bench he can confirm that the second day of our consideration team. will be next Monday, as announced last Thursday by There is a great wish to ensure that Leveson’s the Leader of the House. We seek assurances that there recommendations are implemented in the next few days will be an opportunity to debate and vote on Leveson in one form or another and I am clear that we need to or press regulation-related clauses tabled by the Government do that as a Parliament in agreement with the Government. or by the Opposition. I want to hear from the Minister—the There might need to be some legislative changes after Leader of the House can help him—whether the debate the all-party talks today and we might need to make will happen on 18 March. legislative provision in this Bill. The Minister said that he intends to table a Let me make two last points. First, there is wisdom in supplementary programme motion and he has a duty to programme motions if they mean that we do not sit tell the House when he intends to do that. Between you through the night—we are meant to be a family-friendly and me, Mr Speaker—dare I say it—our amendment House and that is not a good way of being family- would deliver what the Government want on Monday. friendly—but they should always be based on agreement. If it were pressed to a vote, it might do what the The hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) Government seek to do, but I am willing, as I am that mentioned the House business committee and I look sort of a guy, to give the Minister the chance to reflect. forward to its coming into operation, as anticipated in If he can assure me that the supplementary programme the coalition agreement. motion will be tabled within living experience, rather Finally, as the Leader of the House is in his seat, let than at some future date of which we are as yet unsure, me say that, whenever time is taken out of the allocated that would reassure me and my right hon. Friends that time for Government Bills by statements or urgent the Government’s intentions should be supported by questions—of course, that does not apply today—I the official Opposition. hope that we can have injury time. The one flaw of the present system seems to be that we agree a timetable Mr Bone: Let me clarify. Has the right hon. Gentleman and then lose half of the time. That is nobody’s fault, moved the amendment and might he seek the leave of but it means that we do not implement the will of the the House to withdraw it later? House. I hope that the Leader of the House will consider that helpfully and accommodate the time we planned to have so that we do not lose time to other business. Mr Hanson: That is indeed the situation. I hope I have made that clear, but if I have not, so be it. 1.10 pm I seek three things from the Minister: a guarantee Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): This has been a complete that there will be a debate; a guarantee that there will be and utter shambles. It is outrageous that the programme a vote; a guarantee that there will be a second day of motion was only tabled at the very last moment last debate; some indication of when that will be; whether it night. Indeed, there was a Government Whip wandering will be on a day other than that which was previously around the corridors, saying that the Whips were about announced; and when the supplementary motion will to call for the House to sit in private so that they could be tabled. I reserve the right to withdraw my amendment, get an extra 20 minutes, because they still had not but I wanted to move it so that we could get some decided what the programme motion should be. That clarity from the Minister on the key issues about which makes it very difficult for ordinary Members of the the Opposition remain concerned and want assurances. House to know whether they support the business for the following day, and whether they want to amend it 1.6 pm This is a Christmas tree Bill, and Christmas tree Bills have a terrible habit of gaining not only an awful lot of Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) baubles and tinsel but a fairy on the top as well. There (LD): I thank my hon. Friend the Minister of State for are 29 pages of Government amendments—29—covering how he introduced the programme motion and for the very substantial issues, let alone all the other specific substantive change it makes. It gives us two days for issues that ordinary Back-Bench Members on both debate on the Bill, which is important and merits that sides of the House would like to debate. So it is good length of discussion. I also thank him for the information that we are getting an extra day, but it is therefore he conveyed about the Government’s view on how they incumbent on the Government to make sure that there propose to respond to the wish of Members on the is an opportunity for key issues in relation to the Opposition, Liberal Democrat and Conservative Benches Leveson inquiry—which have already been debated in that we should have adequate time to deal with press the House of Lords—to be debated in the democratic conduct matters on the second day. Chamber, which is here. 321 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 322 (Programme No. 2) (Programme No. 2) [Chris Bryant] try something different with the Bill. Let us abandon the programme motion, and the other programme motion, I say to the Government that it felt very much and see the self-discipline of the House. When we are yesterday—I am not entirely convinced that this has talking about things as important as Leveson—although changed—as if the Government were doing everything I am probably going to disagree in principle with the in their power to rig the system so that there could be no views of the hon. Member for Rhondda—we must have debate at all on Leveson on Monday. That is basically this debate. This is the mother of Parliaments and the what the programme motion before us does—it makes debate should take place here. sure that that and, for that matter, other issues will not We can spend hours and hours—[Interruption.] We be debated on Monday. can talk for hours about unimportant things, but when I just think it is time we learned that there is a better there are really important things to be discussed, the way of doing politics. I fully accept that not everyone Executive—and, for that matter, the shadow Executive agrees with me about how we should implement Leveson; on occasion—get together to restrict debate. This is there is a perfectly legitimate debate to be had. But how a great opportunity. I doubt very much whether the on earth could we go back to our voters and say that, minority parties in the House have been involved in yes, we all wanted an inquiry to happen; we wanted these discussions at all. Certainly, no one has asked millions of pounds of public money to be spent on an anyone on the Back Benches what they think about the inquiry; we were gutted and we all poured out our soul time allocated to the Bill. when we heard the stories of Milly Dowler and all the rest, and the way they had been treated by the press; and Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Not me. we all stood up and made wonderful speeches about how there had to be change; and then we voted to make Mr Bone: Indeed. Let us just try. If I am wrong, sure that we could not even debate it? That is essentially Members can tell me so, but let the Government withdraw what the programme motion does. the original programme motion, let us have an open The Minister is looking querulous, and I hope that timetable on this, and see how we get on. If I am proved does not mean that he is going to undermine what he right, let us do that in the future, and let us bring the said earlier, because I take very seriously what he said. business of the House committee into being. Let us not As I understand it, he gave a complete guarantee that, go for this Stalinist central control. for the second day of debate, there will be a new programme motion, whenever that second day is; and Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The hon. that that programme motion will expressly make provision Gentleman mentioned the exclusion of minority parties. for the House to be able to make up its mind on Does he agree that, even if a business of the House Leveson and associated matters to do with press conduct. committee were set up, there would still be problems if To be honest, if we do not do that, we should be there was not proper representation of the smaller ashamed of ourselves as a House, because we will just parties on that committee? have allowed the Executive—a small part of the Executive, I suggest—to prevent public debate, and I do not think Mr Bone: In relation to the matter before us, that our voters would thank us for it. would be very important, of course, but I envisaged that committee not to have any members from either the 1.13 pm Executive or the shadow Executive, and to be made up of independently minded Back Benchers who would Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): It is a great not necessarily toe the party line. So it will be Parliament honour and privilege to follow the hon. Member for deciding, and I am absolutely sure that there would be Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who has put the case exceptionally members from the minority parties. That is actually a well. I disagree with my right hon. Friend the Member coalition priority. They seem to have slipped on the for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes): timetable. We were supposed to have it by May this year, it is not a problem for the House to sit late in the night if and it does not look quite as though that will happen. we are doing a proper job of scrutiny; and the idea that To return to the detail of the programme motion, if it is impossible to stop the House sitting late if there is the shadow Minister does not stick to his amendment, no programme motion is wrong, because it is possible there is a danger that, if the Government do not do to bring in a guillotine. There has been a programming what they promise, the opportunity will be gone and motion for every single Bill in this Parliament. The lost, and we will not debate Leveson. I urge the shadow Library has confirmed to me that the present Government Minister to test the will of the House on this. But of have guillotined more debates than were guillotined course I am hoping that before that happens the Minister during the previous Parliament. So the idea that it is will pop up and say, “We don’t need the original programme impossible to stop debate is unfounded—in fact, I was motion; we will have unlimited debate on the issue.” stopped in mid-flow the other day by a Whip moving a closure motion. 1.17 pm We will, of course, solve this problem entirely if we have an open and transparent business of the House Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): The committee. But at the moment what happens, behind debate is quite important, because we all know the closed doors, is that two sets of Whips decide whether importance of getting the post-Leveson scene right. they are happy with the amount of debate. If Members Mention has been made of the cost, the time involved, on the Back Benches do not happen to agree with either and the great care that Lord Justice Leveson took over lot of Whips, bad luck you—you just do not get a the inquiry. We, as a minority party, were never part of chance to discuss the matter. I urge the Minister, who is the all-party talks, although the official Opposition a great democrat—or was, before he became a Minister—to have kept us in the loop, to their credit. As my right 323 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 324 (Programme No. 2) (Programme No. 2) hon. Friend the Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) make reasonable provision for those deliberations. As I said, we should be kept in the loop, which would be have tried to explain, we are doing precisely that with perfectly fine. the Bill. On the programme motion, of course, we are not On the new dimension of Leveson and the points part of the foul waters of the usual channels. made by the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), for the benefit of the House, may I underline the crucial Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Foul waters point? The Government will bring forward a supplementary indeed. programme motion if the cross-party talks have concluded, whether that is with or without agreement. If those Mr Llwyd: The foulest in Europe, apparently—and talks have concluded, we will introduce a supplementary that is why we are not part of them, probably. programme motion. With that assurance, the Opposition amendment is not necessary. If those talks have not On a serious point, even with the amended timetable concluded, we can proceed as we are currently proceeding, we are still pretty well limited in terms of discussing and if they have concluded, the Government have given Leveson, and we know that there are many opinions an undertaking—I have given that undertaking on behalf within the House on the Front, Back and middle Benches, of the Government—that we would in those circumstances on what we should do next. One thing is certain: the introduce a supplementary programme motion. As for people out there demand that we get this right and, if the question of when we will introduce that motion, we do this in this piecemeal, last-minute, eleventh-hour which was raised by the right hon. Member for Delyn, way, it will be an ignominious start to any proceedings the answer is that we will do so when the cross-party on getting Leveson right. talks have concluded, either with or without agreement. I echo what was said by the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) and the hon. Member for Rhondda Chris Bryant: There are two issues that the Minister (Chris Bryant) and I agree with many things that the has not addressed. First, we do not know what “concluded” hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) said. We means. It could mean “came to a conclusion with which do need to have sufficient time to debate this issue. The everybody agreed”, which might not be the view of the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark whole House, or it could mean “came to an end” (Simon Hughes) said that we could dispense with because those talks collapsed. I should be grateful if the programming if we want to be in the Chamber until Minister provided clarification. Secondly, he has not 5 am or 6 am on every Bill. That is patently nonsense, told us which day has been chosen for the second day. If because in the 1992 Parliament that happened occasionally it is still next Monday, it will be virtually impossible for when the Maastricht treaty was debated, but not all the Members to table amendments that could be selected time. There are some Bills that require greater debate for Monday, unless there is an announcement today. and scrutiny, but the flexibility to provide that is missing from all of this. That is extremely unfortunate because, with the best will in the world—with the benign Government Mr Browne: On the first point, on when something we have now and any Government who may follow—the can be said to have concluded, I had not realised that Executive are riding roughshod over us. This is not what that was something on which I would be called to judge. Parliament is meant to be. It is when it has finished, I suppose: when there is no more left to discuss, or when the cross-party talks have concluded—[Interruption]—as I said, with or without 1.20 pm agreement. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) asked what would happen if they had come to an end Mr Jeremy Browne: There are two parts to our but there was no agreement. In that case, they would deliberation: first, whether the House should programme conclude without agreement. When the process of cross- business at all; and secondly, a specific set of points party talks has been exhausted, that is the point at about provision for discussion of Leveson. On the first which a supplementary programme motion will be— part, within about a minute, my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) went from describing me as a great democrat, which is extremely flattering, to Ian Lucas: Will the Minister give way? suggesting that I was an exponent of Stalinist central control. The right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd Mr Browne: Wait a second. Hon. Members keep (Mr Llwyd), however, said that we had a benign making points that I am about to address in response to Government, so we need to discuss whether Stalinism the contribution of the right hon. Member for Delyn. can be benign. I hope that we are on the benign end of When the talks have concluded, whether with or without the scale. agreement, we will bring forward a supplementary programme motion: that is the first point. Secondly, on There was a vote only a few months ago not to reduce when that will take place— the number of hours, but to adjust Tuesday sitting hours and other provisions, so that we would finish, apart from in exceptional circumstances, at 7 o’clock on Ian Lucas: rose— Tuesday evening, rather than at 10 o’clock. The majority of Members who voted in that Division favoured the Mr Browne: Okay. Given that I am trying to help the earlier finish on Tuesday. I was not one of them, but the House by responding to questions in the debate, I shall majority made that decision. I do not detect—but I am give way, but then I shall get down to answering the core not responsible for these matters—a groundswell of points. support for the proposal routinely to sit late into the night to deliberate on Bills, as most Members find it Ian Lucas: Who makes the decision on whether the helpful to timetable our business, as long as the Executive talks have concluded or not? 325 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 13 MARCH 2013 326 (Programme No. 2) Mr Browne: The participants in the talks, I assume. It Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] will be apparent to them whether they have finished talking. I do not want to make it sound like a papal [1ST ALLOCATED DAY] exercise, but I am sure that the appropriate metaphorical Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public Bill smoke will come out of Government buildings and Committee. everyone will be able to recognise when talks are no longer taking place. New Clause 3

MODIFICATION OF NCA FUNCTIONS Several hon. Members rose— ‘(1) The Secretary of State may, by order, make— (a) provision about NCA counter-terrorism functions (and, in particular, may make provision conferring, removing, Mr Browne: I am fearful of running out of time or otherwise modifying such functions); and before I have answered the substantive points, rather (b) other provision which the Secretary of State considers than the issue of whether a conclusion means something necessary in consequence of provision made under has finished or not, which is a point that we could paragraph (a) (and, in particular, may make provision debate at length, but not very productively. On the about the functions of any person other than the substantive points, to which I have substantive answers NCA, including provision conferring or otherwise to give, the right hon. Member for Delyn asked whether modifying, but not removing, such functions). there would be a debate. The answer is yes. On the (2) If an order under this section confers an NCA question of whether there will be a vote if the House counter-terrorism function, an NCA officer may only carry out wishes to vote, the answer is yes. This will be an amendment activities in Northern Ireland for the purpose of the discharge of to legislation. There is provision to vote on all aspects of the function if the NCA officer does so with the agreement of the legislation, subject to the usual caveats and the Speaker’s Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland. discretion. Given that everything is subject to those (3) That includes cases where an order under this section caveats, the answer to the question of whether there will confers an NCA counter-terrorism function by the modification of a function. be a debate is yes; and yes, there will be an opportunity to vote. (4) An order under this section may amend or otherwise modify this Act or any other enactment. On the question of when that will take place, at the (5) An order under this section is subject to the super- moment the second day of our deliberations on the Bill affirmative procedure (see section 43 and Schedule 22). is scheduled for Monday. I am not the Leader of the (6) In this section “NCA counter-terrorism function” means House—a far more distinguished Member has that an NCA function relating to terrorism (and for this purpose role—but there is a business statement tomorrow. If the “terrorism” has the same meaning as in the Terrorism Act 2000 Government wished to suggest to the House that the — see section 1 of that Act).’.—(Mr Jeremy Browne.) business should be altered, that would be the appropriate Brought up, and read the First time. time to do so, not now. 1.30 pm The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Mr Hanson: The Minister has made the position Browne): I beg to move, That the clause be read a clear to the House. The official Opposition have taken Second time. from that that there will be a debate, there will be a vote, and there will be an announcement about both the Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss supplementary programming motion and the day of the the following: debate in business questions. On that basis, I am content, New clause 2—National Crime Agency review— if the House will allow me, to withdraw the amendment, ‘A review shall be completed within 12 months of Royal allowing the Government to continue the discussions Assent of the functions and operations of the National Crime that have commenced. That is our position, to reassure Agency with particular regard to— the Minister on those points. (a) the governance structures as set out in section 1, together with resources, training and inspection; and (b) operational and governance arrangements between the Mr Browne: On that extremely consensual and sensible UK Government, the Department of Justice, Northern point, the Opposition spokesman has come to my view Ireland and the Scottish Government with particular after some initial wobbles, and everyone agrees that I reference to asset recovery.’. have come up with a very sensible way to proceed. On Government new schedule 1—‘The NCA: Northern that basis, I hope that the House endorses by popular Ireland. acclaim the Government’s proposal, so there is no need Government amendment 4. to proceed to a vote. Amendment 3, in clause 7, page 6, line 37, at beginning insert Mr Hanson: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the ‘Subject to approval by the Secretary of State for the Home amendment. Department,’. Amendment 95, in page 10, line 15, leave out clause 12. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendment 102, page 11, line 1, leave out clause 13. Main Question put and agreed to. Government amendments 5 to 9, 76, 72 to 74, 85 and 87. 327 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 328

Mr Browne: I am grateful, Mr Speaker, for the allowed the Committee to have a detailed debate. He opportunity to speak to the amendments and thus has been doing a lot of reflecting. Why did he not reflect begin our deliberations on Report. The Government on the detail of the debate that we could have had in amendments in this group deal with two substantive Committee? issues: first, whether the Bill should include a mechanism to confer counter-terrorism functions on the National Mr Browne: It seems to me that this is not a very Crime Agency; and secondly, the extent to which the substantive issue; it is a procedural issue. The Government NCA should operate in Northern Ireland. I will deal have not taken a view as to whether counter-terrorism with each issue in turn. should be transferred into the NCA. The NCA is not New clause 3 seeks to restore to the Bill the power to even up and running yet. It requires the assent of the confer counter-terrorism functions on the NCA by House before we get to that stage, and we have said that means of an order, subject to the super-affirmative when the NCA is up and running, that is something procedure. The House will be aware that on Report the that the Home Secretary may wish to consider. other place removed from the Bill what was then clause 2. If the Government recommend at a future date that In explaining why we have brought back this clause, it is counter-terrorism functions should be transferred to worth reiterating the comments of my right hon. Friend the NCA, there is, as I have just explained, a provision the Home Secretary on Second Reading. She said: for that to be considered in great detail. I will repeat it “I have been clear that no decision on this issue has been taken briefly in case hon. Members did not latch on to the and that none will be taken until after the NCA has been point—that is why I made it before giving way: there is a established and following a detailed review. However, the creation duty on the Home Secretary to consult persons affected of a national crime agency with a national remit to combat before laying a draft order, then there is an opportunity serious, organised and complex crime invites the question whether for Committees of either House to scrutinise the draft it should take on national functions in respect of counter-terrorism policing.” order, and I said that I envisage that task falling to the Home Affairs Committee, a cross-party Committee She continued: chaired by a distinguished member of the Opposition, “ I do not come to this question with any preconceived ideas and then the draft order must explicitly be approved by about what the answer should be, but it was prudent, in my view, both Houses. for the Bill as originally introduced to have included a future-proofing provision.”—[Official Report, 14 January 2013; Vol. 556, c. 635.] When it comes to deliberating on the content of the Since then we have reflected further on concerns raised proposal, as distinct from the parliamentary mechanisms— in the other place that this was not an appropriate the merits or otherwise of counter-terrorism being matter to be left to secondary legislation. This theme exercised by the National Crime Agency—if that process was also a feature of the debates in this House, both on of deliberation is necessary, because the Government Second Reading and in Committee. regard that as a wise way to proceed, there will be the opportunity for Members to make their views clearly Having reflected carefully on the debates on this issue known. But the question we are considering is whether thus far, and on the reports by the Constitution Committee it is suitable and appropriate for that provision to be and the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform made in the Bill, using the super-affirmative procedure. Committee, the Government remain firmly of the view I hope that the House is persuaded by what I have just that this is an appropriate matter for secondary legislation said about there being ample opportunity to debate the and that the super-affirmative procedure provides a substance of these matters and that it is therefore an sufficient level of parliamentary scrutiny. Indeed, the appropriate way to proceed. conditions that are tied to it provide ample opportunity for this House and the other place to scrutinise any such Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): The order. Minister describes a substantive and exhaustive process Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): of parliamentary scrutiny. Is he aware that the Home Will the Minister give way? Affairs Committee has already considered the issue and that we recommended—unanimously, I believe—that Mr Browne: Let me finish the point first. the transfer of counter-terrorism powers from the Met There is a duty on the Home Secretary to consult to the National Crime Agency should take place once persons affected before laying a draft order. There is that agency is up and running and when the Government then an opportunity for Committees of either House to believe it is the right time to do it? scrutinise the draft order—I envisage that this task would fall to the Home Affairs Committee—and then Mr Browne: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s interest the draft order must be approved by both Houses of in the matter. I am cautious about getting ahead of Parliament. This is not a parliamentary process that we ourselves. We envisage the National Crime Agency coming take lightly or which would be taken lightly by either into operation fully on 1 October, but of course that is House. For that reason we believe that it would entail subject to the House giving its assent to that proposition the appropriate level of scrutiny to satisfy those who during the two days of deliberation on Report and rightly take a close interest in these matters. Third Reading, and we should not take the wishes of the House for granted. Then Royal Assent is necessary. Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): The NCA will have considerable and wide-ranging powers, My question is a simple one. Why did the Minister not and I think everybody would accept that it is sensible table new clause 3 in Committee and allow the Committee for it to bed down and establish itself. to scrutinise in detail and in depth the proposal that he There is a perfectly legitimate debate to be had about is now making? He will remember the exchanges that he where this extremely important function should be exercised. had with various Members in Committee. It is disingenuous I listened carefully to my hon. Friend. He puts forward to table the new clause on Report and not to have a point of view that many people agree with, but there 329 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 330

[Mr Jeremy Browne] is the mechanism by which such functions could be bestowed on the agency. The Committee tasked with are people who will take a contrary view. There will be a examining such matters in the other place said that suitable time to deliberate on the matter. I want to “the idea of adding to a statutory body’s functions by subordinate assure the House that we believe that the super-affirmative legislation subject to a Parliamentary procedure is well established”. procedure will allow more than adequate time for that Of course, it is for this House to come to its own view debate and for those issues to be properly aired. Any on the matter, but I put it to all Members present that decision to give the NCA a counter-terrorism role will this is a perfectly proper way of proceeding and invite be an important one; we have no wish to diminish, them and the House to support the new clause. impede or lose those aspects of the current arrangements On the NCA and Northern Ireland, and particularly that work well. new schedule 1, it is with great regret that I must inform the House that I will have to table amendments Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): The Minister limiting the role of the NCA in Northern Ireland. As will be aware that there are particular arrangements in the House will be aware, we have been unable to secure Northern Ireland for dealing with counter-terrorism, so the agreement of the Northern Ireland Executive to it is important not only that that is debated, discussed take forward a legislative consent motion for either and consulted on in this place, but that there is the the NCA or the amendments to the Proceeds of Crime opportunity for the Northern Ireland situation specifically Act 2002. To say that that is a disappointing outcome does to be considered. Can he give us an assurance today not do justice to the implications for the effectiveness of the that that will be the case? NCA and, more importantly, the protection of the people of Northern Ireland. The Government are being Mr Browne: By the time I get to the end of my speech, up front about that. It is not the outcome we sought, the hon. Lady will be in no doubt that all Northern but we are obviously required to deal with the situation Ireland aspects of the Bill and how we deal with serious as it is, rather than as we would wish it to be. crime and terrorism will be given a strong airing. If I can make progress, large parts of my speech deal with Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP) rose— issues that relate directly to Northern Ireland. Currently, counter-terrorism policing is a partnership Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP) rose— endeavour among all UK police forces. Chief constables, each of whom retains full authority over policing in Mr Browne: I will give way, but I am delivering a their force area, maintain a framework of agreements substantive passage of my speech, which will be of great on how the various national counter-terrorism policing interest to Members from Northern Ireland and elsewhere, functions are distributed between forces, and how those so if I give way too often there is a danger that I might national functions support forces in both proactive and end up revealing the details of what I wish to say in a reactive operations. However, with the creation of the less structured way. Having said that, I know that the National Crime Agency, it is reasonable, as I hope I right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) wishes explained satisfactorily to my hon. Friend the Member to speak. for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless), that the Government should want to consider afresh how the Mr Dodds: I am grateful to the Minister for allowing current counter-terrorism policing arrangements work me to put on the record at the outset the fact that the and review whether the NCA could play a role to Democratic Unionist party shares his disappointment enhance our response to the terrorist threat. Those that this has been unable to proceed in the way that was questions can be sensibly considered only after the planned. It was certainly not for want of trying on the NCA is up and running, and only then after a full part of the DUP. review. As I said at the outset, and as my right hon. Friend Mr Browne: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary has made clear, the position remains and pleased that I gave way, because I share his anguish. that the Government have no preconceived notion—others I want all people in the United Kingdom, regardless of will—as to the outcome of a review of counter-terrorism which part they live in, to be as protected as possible by policing arrangements and any future role of the NCA the agencies of the state from the risks they might be in them. However, we continue to believe that it is right exposed to from serious and organised crime. Clearly, to build into the Bill the flexibility to implement the the NCA is being brought into being because we regard outcome of such a review in a timely fashion through it as an important institution for protecting the public secondary legislation, but subject to a high level of from serious and organised crime. Many of its functions parliamentary scrutiny in the form of the super-affirmative will apply in Northern Ireland, but they will not apply procedure, as I hope I have explained, and that we there as extensively as they will in England, which is a should be able to proceed on that basis. The Government source of regret. would rightly be criticised if we could not implement the findings of a review for a year or more for want of Sammy Wilson: The Minister is quite right that this is the necessary primary legislation. We believe that this is a very serious issue in Northern Ireland. We, too, wish the best way to strike the right balance between being to see the protections he has outlined. Given that Ministers able to move quickly in this extremely important area, hinted in Committee that if provisions in the Marriage but without undue haste. (Same Sex Couples) Bill are not given legislative consent Let us not confuse the point at issue. It is not about motions by the Northern Ireland Assembly, Ministers whether or not the NCA should exercise counter-terrorism might well legislate anyway, will he apply the same rule functions; that debate is for the future. The issue today and approach on the NCA? 331 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 332

1.45 pm opposition. Indeed, the negotiations are continuing. His support for the NCA has been unswerving, as has Mr Browne: I do not have a speaking note on that his commitment to ensuring that it would work effectively point. I, like most Members, have received a number of with, and complement, the important post-devolution representations on the merits or otherwise of same-sex police accountability arrangements in Northern Ireland. marriage, and I do not wish to expand that debate by Since the initial proposals for the National Crime Agency speaking from the Dispatch Box on the application of were published, the Government have been clear in same-sex marriage provisions in Northern Ireland and their commitment to ensure that the need for an effective how they might or might not impact on the National UK-wide response to serious and organised crime is Crime Agency. I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, balanced against the need to respect the devolution but I think it will probably be most helpful if I do not settlement. take interventions for a short while, because there have been many discussions and negotiations on Northern The Bill as introduced included a number of new Ireland and it is important to get on the record where safeguards, above and beyond those provided for in we stand and what provisions will apply there, because respect of the Serious Organised Crime Agency, to clearly some will still apply, although they are less ensure that the NCA reflected the devolution arrangements extensive than we would have wished them to be. Therefore, and the real sensitivities relating to accountability for I will get to the detail of where we stand, because the policing in Northern Ireland. For example, in the initial amendments are required to put that into practice. Bill the directed tasking arrangements were limited to England and Wales, the directed assistance provisions We will, of course, do our utmost to minimise the included an additional consultative role for the Northern operational impact of the Northern Ireland Executive’s Ireland Policing Board, and we extended the remit of decision—that is what new schedule 1 seeks to do—while the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland to cover respecting the Sewel convention. However, the House complaints in relation to asset recovery. I maintain, should be under no illusion: the decision will have therefore, that the Government were alert from the implications for the fight against serious and organised outset to the specific sensibilities in Northern Ireland. crime in Northern Ireland. Yet it was in full knowledge We have not sought to railroad through a rigid uniformity and recognition of those implications that the Executive that is blind to those sensitivities. came to their decision. Even with all those safeguards we were prepared to Let me be clear that the NCA will continue to operate go further to address the Executive’s concerns and on a UK-wide basis, including in Northern Ireland, but agreed in principle to provide further changes to the Bill the Executive’s decision means that the NCA’s activities provided that a legislative consent motion was forthcoming. in Northern Ireland will be curtailed. For example, However, even with that initial good will and those NCA officers in Northern Ireland can no longer be additional changes, the Executive could not agree. Despite designated with the powers of a Northern Ireland constable. the situation in which we find ourselves, we remain However, there is still much the NCA can do to tackle committed to the principle of a fully operational NCA serious, organised and complex crime in Northern Ireland, in Northern Ireland. The amendments will provide both through its own investigations and by supporting flexibility so that, should the position in Northern the Police Service of Northern Ireland and other agencies. Ireland change, we can make provision for the NCA to Importantly, the strong operational relationship that have a full operational role there beyond what is currently the Serious Organised Crime Agency has built up with possible. the PSNI, both through the SOCA officers based in Our approach in new schedule 1 it to limit the extent Northern Ireland and across SOCA as a whole, will of the “relevant NCA provisions” so that we do not continue with the NCA. legislate on transferred matters without the consent of Furthermore, NCA officers will still be able to use the Northern Ireland Assembly. The Sewel convention customs and immigration powers to take action against is an important part of the devolution settlement established serious, organised and complex customs and immigration by the previous Administration and it is one to which crimes. Operational partners will continue to be able to this Government are equally committed. access the wider national specialist capabilities that will reside in the NCA, such as the new national cybercrime Several hon. Members rose— unit and the NCA’s network of international liaison officers. Mr Browne: Let me proceed a little and then I will give way. However, that is not the best outcome for the people The table in paragraph 9 sets out the “relevant NCA of Northern Ireland. The NCA will be able to continue provisions” that do not extend to Northern Ireland. the fight against serious and organised crime and Notable among those provisions that will not apply are immigration crime, which I am pleased about. I know the ability to designate NCA officers with the powers of that Keith Bristow, who will run the NCA, is committed a Northern Ireland constable in schedule 5, the oversight to ensuring that it will make a significant contribution of the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland in to the overall law enforcement effort in Northern Ireland, schedule 6, and, importantly, the duty of the Police but that is not the same as having a fully operational Service of Northern Ireland to co-operate with the NCA working to support the efforts and important NCA and other duties in schedule 3. Importantly, the work of the PSNI. new schedule also provides a series of order-making Before getting into the detail of new schedule 1, I powers in paragraphs 1 to 5 so that, should the position want to pay tribute to the tireless efforts of David Ford, of the Northern Ireland Executive change, the NCA the Northern Ireland Justice Minister, and his officials provisions can be extended to Northern Ireland, subject, to drive forward the discussions in Northern Ireland, of course, to the agreement of the Northern Ireland sometimes in the face of considerable difficulty and Assembly. 333 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 334

[Mr Jeremy Browne] The Minister has clarified the situation with regard to those NCA provisions that are precluded for now, As I have said, I regret that it has been necessary to but they do not include the criminal intelligence function table new schedule 1. This does not, however, mark the in clause 1(5). Under that provision, will the NCA run end of our negotiations on the role that the National its own informers and direct surveillance or similar in Crime Agency should play in Northern Ireland. I fervently Northern Ireland? hope that the narrowing of the NCA’s remit in Northern Ireland will be a temporary measure. We will continue Mr Browne: It would probably be better if I avoided to strive for an equitable agreement between the parties talking about operational matters with regard to the in Northern Ireland and, once secured, this new schedule prevention of serious and organised crime in the United will ensure that we have the necessary order-making Kingdom. I will reflect on whether I can assist the hon. powers to give effect to such an arrangement. I hope Gentleman—without compromising operations, which that that has provided clarity on this important issue. none of us would want—before I conclude my speech. I have been speaking for half an hour. This debate is Mark Reckless: Will the Minister clarify whether the mainly about the possibility of conferring powers on two strands of his speech interact? If powers were the NCA to deal with counter-terrorism and the changes transferred from the Met to the NCA and the NCA was we have to make with regard to Northern Ireland, but unable to conduct anti-terrorism work in Northern let me touch briefly on the remaining Government Ireland, would that provide a contrast with the current amendments in this group. Amendment 4 to clause 2 situation? If the transfer happened without the changes will convert the existing power on the Home Secretary that the Minister hopes for, would the Met be able to to set strategic priorities for the NCA into a duty to do pursue anti-terrorism work in Northern Ireland that the so. The right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) NCA could not? tabled a similar amendment in Committee and I undertook to consider it. As I am a collegiate Minister who is Mr Browne: Although the Met takes the lead, each always impressed by the power of the right hon. individual police force is responsible for its own Gentleman’s arguments, even when I do not agree with activities. An important change is the NCA’s ability to them, I was keen to accommodate his views. Members task police forces—in other words, their sovereignty of the Committee will be familiar with the arguments would no longer be absolute, because the NCA could, for that change. in extremis, require a police force to undertake certain The Home Secretary’s role in setting the strategic actions. That is not the case with the Metropolitan direction of the NCA is obviously of central importance police. It is conceivable that some in Northern Ireland and the Government’s intention has always been that will be unwilling to be tasked in that way, but a lot of the Home Secretary would set the strategic priorities in collaborative work takes place in any case. Activities accordance with the power granted by clause 2. On that that fund terrorism, rather than terrorism itself, would basis, this reasonable amendment reflects what we had come under the category of serious and organised crime, envisaged in any case. which could be dealt with. The other Government amendments in the group are Mr Dodds: As the Minister outlined the provisions either consequential on new clause 3 and new schedule and voiced regret at having to table new schedule 1, the 1 or, in the case of amendments 5 to 7 and 9 to schedule disservice and disadvantage done to the people of Northern 8, are of a technical or drafting nature and make further Ireland by Sinn Fein and the Social Democratic and consequential amendments to other enactments as a Labour party became more apparent. He also mentioned result of the establishment of the National Crime Agency. the Government’s commitment to the Sewel convention 2pm on the devolution settlement and my hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) raised the issue I have given a decent run-in to our deliberations, so of principle. Will the Minister confirm that, if the Sewel will finish by coming back to the point raised by the convention is to be respected in this case, it will also be hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan). The criminal respected in relation to all Government measures? intelligence function relates to sharing information and is not about informants. The NCA will retain powers Mr Browne: I think it would be more proper for the and techniques under the Regulation of Investigatory Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to answer that Powers Act 2000, but that is a separate matter and a question on behalf of the Government. I was answering reserved one. the specific question asked by my hon. Friend the I hope that I have addressed all the Government Member for Rochester and Strood about the function proposals to the satisfaction of the House. of the NCA. Were the NCA to be given a counter-terrorism function in the future, it would be able to exercise that Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): New clause 3 and function in Northern Ireland only with the prior agreement the other amendments before the House concern important of the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern issues that are fundamentally to do with protecting our Ireland. I am afraid that the question of how legislation society from terrorist activity. We must get these matters that is not relevant to the Home Office or the NCA right. We must consider the concerns of another place applies to Northern Ireland is not in my remit. and those who are involved in these issues on a day-to-day basis. I continue to have key concerns about the new Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I will deal with the clause. questions raised by the right hon. Member for Belfast The Government have tabled new clause 3 on Report North (Mr Dodds) about my party’s position if I catch following the removal of the original clause 2 in another your eye later, Mr Speaker. place earlier this year. The Home Secretary has said: 335 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 336

“I have been clear that no decision on this issue has been taken new clauses could be added. It is therefore disingenuous and that none will be taken until after the NCA has been of him to say that it is not practical or possible to have established and following a detailed review.”—[Official Report, primary legislation to effect these changes. 14 January 2013; Vol. 556, c. 635.] New clause 3 would provide for a limited debate in I welcome that no decision has been taken and that this House on massive changes and significant issues consideration is being given to whether it is best for that relate to the safety of citizens across the United terrorism functions to remain with the Metropolitan Kingdom, including in Northern Ireland. As the Minister police as the co-ordinating body, whether they should has indicated, and as I will come on to when I speak to be transferred to the National Crime Agency or whether new schedule 1, he has not yet secured agreement for there is a third model that the Government could consider. the National Crime Agency to operate in Northern I am concerned that new clause 3 will give the Ireland. Given that the National Crime Agency will Government an order-making power to implement a tackle big issues such as fuel smuggling and people major change. As we have heard from hon. Gentlemen trafficking, which are often linked to the funding of from different parties in Northern Ireland, this change terrorism in Northern Ireland and elsewhere, it is not would have great import and ramifications in Northern good enough for the Minister to propose an order-making Ireland, with respect not just to terrorism and policing power, super-affirmative though the procedure may be, but to confidence in communities. I cannot support the to deliberate and agree on these proposals. Government’s proposal of an order-making power that If the Minister does not accept what Lord Blair says, would receive limited debate in this place. perhaps he will accept the view of the former Metropolitan I accept that these are serious issues. I remind the Police Commissioner, Lord Condon, who said: Minister of the concerns that were raised in another “This is a hugely important matter that deserves primary place, not just by Labour Members such as my noble legislation rather than an affirmative order… History tells us that friend, Baroness Smith of Basildon, but by Cross-Bench more than 80% of terrorist incidents in this country happen in Members, about the original clause 2, which was removed London.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 27 November 2012; from the Bill and is effectively being reintroduced with Vol. 741, c. 116.] new clause 3. I fear that if the Minister proceeds to Two former Metropolitan Police Commissioners say insert new clause 3 into the Bill, there will be further that this matter should be considered through primary discussion in another place about the merits of that legislation, but the Minister still wants to bring forward proposal and the concerns that were expressed when the a super-affirmative order. Bill was last considered will be revisited. I hope that I am not doing him a disservice if I quote Lord Blair of Boughton, who is a former Metropolitan the views of the current Metropolitan Police Commissioner Police Commissioner and now sits as a Cross Bencher from an article in The Times: in another place, said that “Bernard Hogan-Howe said he believed that the link between “a number of noble Lords expressed the sentiment that national local policing and counter-terrorism police had been essential to security is the first duty of government. I agree with that point of the success of the anti-terror strategy in Britain.” view. I put my name to this amendment because I believe that Clause 2 directly affects national security and so, in my view, is The article goes on: more important than any other clause in this section of the Bill.” “‘What is the problem we are trying to remedy here?’ he asked. He went on to say that ‘And if there is to be a change, there will be a cost—at a time of austerity that will have to be considered.’” “in my lifetime no change more significant than this in the policing arrangements to protect our nation has ever been I do not believe that that matter can be considered in contemplated. A change in the NCA’s responsibility may be the time available under the super-affirmative procedure. right, but it may not be… Such a decision deserves primary We need to support the concerns that were expressed legislation, to allow the suggestion to be scrutinised, debated and in another place. Unless something miraculous happens, amended by both Houses of Parliament.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 27 November 2012; Vol. 741, c. 114-115.] I will not recommend that my right hon. and hon. Friends support new clause 3, because I do not think The Minister’s proposal in new clause 3 will deny the that it is the appropriate way forward. The other place opportunity for primary legislation to be used to deal will consider the matter and we will deliberate on the with this issue. views expressed there in due course. I have an open mind about where we should end up on this issue. This debate is not about making the final Mr Browne: As I have said, the Government have an decision about where terrorism functions should lie. We open mind on this matter. We want to achieve the best can have a debate about that. However, it is important possible protection for the public. However, the three not only that the review that the Minister has talked people whom the right hon. Gentleman has cited as about takes place, but that both Houses of Parliament making the case for the Met police to continue to have have an opportunity to reflect on it in a measured and the lead role on counter-terrorism are the commissioner considered way. of the Met police and two ex-commissioners of the Met The Minister said that we are going to have a busy police. One would expect those people to argue for the programme. I remind him that we are likely to have a central role of the Met police. They are perhaps not light legislative programme this year and that swathes such good authorities on the case for one form of of time are available because of changes such as what parliamentary procedure and scrutiny over another. happened to reform of the House of Lords. The Minister The Government will make their judgments and knows that at any time he can negotiate and secure time recommendations about where counter-terrorism should in this House for speedy legislation on matters of great sit and people will want to contribute to that debate, but import. He also knows, without giving any secrets away, those three people have quite partial backgrounds. We that there is bound to be a criminal justice Bill of some will ensure that the House has the adequate opportunity form in the forthcoming Gracious Speech, to which to scrutinise whatever the Government propose. 337 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 338

Mr Hanson: I am grateful to the Minister. Perhaps there and the people who have concerns about the between now and the super-affirmative order coming proposal, as well as those from all sides who do not, are forward he will guarantee that he will make the order heard? What is the process, and how is it being taken amendable. It currently would not be amendable; for forward? another place and this House it would be a question of The Bill has been trailed for perhaps 18 months, and take it or leave it. Primary legislation would allow either it was produced in another place and has been debated House to examine the proposals and amend, refine or in the Commons. The issue has arisen not this week but challenge them, but a super-affirmative order would over many months. The National Crime Agency will not. not have input into key issues in Northern Ireland, I say gently to the Minister that although three including drug trafficking, fuel laundering, smuggling Metropolitan Police Commissioners may have an interest and a range of serious organised crime. Its relationship in the Metropolitan police, they have been responsible with the Police Service of Northern Ireland is still to be for co-ordinating counter-terrorism activities. If they defined in a practical way. How has it come to that raise concerns, he has a duty to allow them to be point? listened to. The concerns are not about the ultimate position but about whether it can be reached via primary 2.15 pm legislation so that either House can make tweaks. The Minister is simply saying that the Government will Sammy Wilson: I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman’s review the matter and decide on it, and then table a point, but does he accept that although the Government take-it-or-leave-it order for both Houses to decide on. are to be faulted on many things, a lot of the issues that That is not an appropriate way forward. people wanted addressed in negotiations with the Northern Ireland Minister were addressed? However, two parties are still suspicious of any policing arrangements that Paul Goggins: My right hon. Friend is doing an are UK-wide rather than based purely in Northern excellent job of highlighting the Government’s inconsistency Ireland. They will never be convinced, and that is one on the issue. Does he recall that earlier in this Parliament reason why the Minister’s job is so difficult. the Government insisted that provisions for enhanced terrorism prevention and investigation measures or the Mr Hanson: I understand that point. As the hon. extension of pre-charge detention beyond 14 days could Gentleman knows, I did two years in Northern Ireland, be made only through fresh primary legislation? Now and I accept and understand the difficulties of that they want to give the Home Secretary the power to position. My right hon. Friend the Member for transfer the lead responsibility for counter-terrorism to Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) also served the National Crime Agency through secondary legislation. in Northern Ireland, and my hon. Friend the Member It is completely inconsistent. for Foyle (Mark Durkan) will speak on his party’s views shortly. I always regret that Sinn Fein Members do not Mr Hanson: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, give their view to Members of Parliament in this House, who knows what he is talking about. He had to take but that is a separate issue. executive decisions on important matters, particularly I understand where the hon. Member for East Antrim to do with Northern Ireland and terrorism, at a time (Sammy Wilson) is coming from, but the issue is still when Northern Ireland was not as stable as it is now, open to negotiation, because even if we accept new even though there are challenges today. schedule 1 today, the NCA will not operate in Northern I say gently to the Minister that he should listen to Ireland and there will be only an affirmative order to some of the experience that is out there. This is not put that arrangement in place at some point in future. about the end product, because we can debate that and There will therefore still have been no resolution of the the review will raise a number of issues about it. It is difference of opinion. The Minister has a duty to tell about how we get consent on that end product, which the House how he intends to bridge that gap strategically. could be through amendments to legislation. I defy him to say that there is no time for legislation to be brought Naomi Long: When the right hon. Gentleman said forward in the next 12 months, either as a new clause to that he did two years in Northern Ireland, it sounded another Bill or as a stand-alone Bill, to make the more like a sentence than a pleasure. I am sure that was changes in question. I do not believe that is the case, not intentional. Does he agree that the problem is much and I think he is being disingenuous—dare I say that? more significant than simply leaving Northern Ireland Perhaps I should say that he is reflecting on the matter at an operational disadvantage, which will clearly happen? in a way that I would not wish him to reflect. There is currently a duty on the PSNI to co-operate The situation with regard to Northern Ireland is a bit with the Serious Organised Crime Agency, but that will of a shambles. I fully understand why political parties go once the Bill comes in. Even the basic duty to in Northern Ireland have taken the view that they have, co-operate will be removed from the NCA if there is not and why it is important that the Government do not an agreement otherwise. legislate for Northern Ireland. However, I ask the Minister who is responsible for negotiating with the Northern Mr Hanson: I reassure the hon. Lady that I loved Ireland Assembly to get some traction on the matter. I every minute of my time in Northern Ireland and was have tabled questions to the Northern Ireland Office sorry to be airlifted out on the day when, fortunately and the Home Office, and both have said that they are and for good purposes, devolved government was restored meeting David Ford, the Northern Ireland Justice Minister, and my time there finished. on a regular basis. However, who is taking on the The hon. Lady will be aware that clause 14 will challenge of ensuring that the Northern Ireland Policing abolish SOCA, which currently operates with the PSNI Board, the four or five political parties represented to tackle issues such as we have discussed. After Royal 339 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 340

Assent, there will be nothing in place. I do not want the I will not touch on asset recovery now as we will discuss Minister simply to say, “Well, we’ll have an affirmative it in a later debate, but there is a big hole in the Bill on order”. He needs to explain to the House what will that issue and how it fits into a UK structure. A review happen after Royal Assent, when the NCA is not operating 12 months after Royal Assent, as demanded by new in Northern Ireland. clause 2, would simply require the matter to be considered in detail. Mark Durkan: Does the shadow Minister recognise Amendment 3, which is in my name, concerns giving that when the Bill first emerged in draft, some of us political oversight to decisions made by the director pointed out in questions to both Northern Ireland general of the NCA in response to international requests Office and Home Office Ministers that there would be for assistance, and for consideration of an international serious implications and sensitivities in Northern Ireland, response to emergency situations. Under clause 7, the which would need to be sorted out? However, the Bill director general can decide to examine the provision of was handled in such a way that it was left to privileged assistance to a country or territory outside the British negotiations and discussions between Department of Isles. Subsection (3) states: Justice officials in Belfast and the Home Office here. “The Director General may provide assistance to…a government The parties in Northern Ireland were only latterly involved. in a country or territory outside the British Islands…if the That is why we now have the crazy situation that time government, or the body, requests assistance”. has been added on at the end of the discussions on the My amendment would simply mean that that should be Bill. There should have been proper discussion and with the support and agreement of the Home Secretary, consultation time at the beginning. and I tabled it for two reasons. First, there may be countries that request or are Mr Hanson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, because looking for support from the National Crime Agency that is the point that I am making. Where is the Northern but about which the Government of the day might have Ireland Office in this? Are discussions taking place with concerns. Let us suppose, for example, that the Syrian the political parties in Northern Ireland to resolve the Government asked for help and support from the NCA, situation? A number of parties and their representatives or the Zimbabwean Government. Those are politically have different views, such as the hon. Member for East difficult issues that Ministers would want to have oversight Antrim, representatives of Sinn Fein and my hon. Friend of because Ministers are ultimately accountable to the himself.What discussions are taking place with those House for the operation of the NCA. A system that parties to resolve that situation? The situation is still in allows the director of the NCA to agree that help and play, and when Royal Assent is achieved, the Serious support can be given on request or by decision, but that Organised Crime Agency will not operate in Northern ultimately the Minister, Home Secretary or a delegated Ireland. That is of regret to the Minister and to me. Minister has oversight of and understands and agrees, More importantly, the Justice Minister, David Ford, would be helpful. When I was a Minister I agreed on said that blocking the new crime agency is a “mistake” many occasions to police forces sending people overseas that could have serious implications for the police. He to help with a range of activities. It is important that stated: Ministers have such oversight, even if they do not ultimately have a veto. “There is a real danger if it does not go ahead there will be very significant costs to the police both in terms of time and finances I also tabled amendment 3 because I am concerned and that we will have an inferior response to the serious organised that officers may be in danger in certain countries and, crime that we face”. again, Ministers are ultimately accountable to this House. The police are understood to share the Justice Minister’s In future, the National Crime Agency director may well concerns, and the Minister needs to reflect on them. I have NCA officers in Afghanistan, Mali, Nigeria or will not oppose the new schedule, but I hope that he Iraq—who knows? It could be any country in which the listens to what has been said and comes back to the NCA is providing assistance or has been requested to House at an early opportunity to say how he will bring do so on matters of serious organised crime. When forward negotiations to conclude the matter. officers go into areas of danger, political oversight is important as a Minister will ultimately be accountable New clause 2, which is in my name and that of my in the Chamber if things go wrong. right hon. and hon. Friends, seeks a review, 12 months after Royal Assent, of the functions and operation of I welcome amendment 4. I proposed it in Committee the National Crime Agency, particularly in relation to and it has been brought back by the Minister in a its governance structures. We had a full debate on that slightly amended form: the word “will” has been replaced in Committee and I will not repeat those points today with the word “must”—such is the Government’s wish because of the limited time available. The Minister to grab hold of the Bill and not let anybody amend it knows, however, that we think there is an alternative word by word, even though the principle is the same. model to governance in which the NCA does not just However, I welcome the fact that I did not entirely report directly to the Home Secretary. Will the Minister waste my time in Committee, and that the measure was consider whether in 12 months’ time, following Royal accepted by the Government. Assent, we could review how his model has operated? If I understand where my hon. Friend the Member for it operates well and has been good and effective, fine; Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) is coming but if not, can we review it? A formal review is the from with his amendments as we had a full debate in purpose of new clause 2, including the Committee. I will not, however, be able to support the “operational and governance arrangements between the UK amendments to remove clauses 12 and 13, but if he Government, the Department of Justice…and the Scottish wishes to make his case I am sure the House will listen. I Government with particular reference to asset recovery”. think we need clauses 12 and 13 to ensure that the 341 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 342

[Mr Hanson] as making deductions from benefit orders and making attachment of earnings orders. That is a privatisation police and the National Crime Agency police do not too far. have the rights that the removal of those clauses would give them. 2.30 pm Since the Committee stage, I have heard concerns Let me return to the question of deleting clauses 12 from police officers about the automatic transfer of and 13. When read in conjunction, they look worse officers from forces to the National Crime Agency than when read by themselves. What they say is: “You without consultation. I would welcome the Minister will not have rights that other trade unions have. We will considering those concerns in due course and reflecting appoint a form of board to determine your pay. End of on them as part of our deliberations. story.” If ever there was an invitation to truss up a I am not convinced that new clause 3 is the best way turkey and put it in the oven, this is it. Read together, forward, and I ask my right hon. and hon. Friends to clauses 12 and 13 will stitch up these people in the worst reject it. That is not because we do not want the matter possible sense. This kind of legislation might have been resolved; we are not rejecting the review or the idea of in vogue 10 or 20 years ago, but it has no place in any examining those issues, but rather the immediate solution modern democracy.By proceeding with it, the Government given by the Minister for an affirmative order. If the are undermining trust in these people and making them Minister does not withdraw the new clause—I suspect look like people who should not be in the jobs they are he will not—he may face a vote in the House. in or who will not act responsibly, which clearly they are not. Amendments 95 and 102 are well worthy of support, and I fully support my friend the hon. Member for Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I am in Hayes and Harlington. the rather strange position of wanting to support the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Hayes and John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): Let Harlington (John McDonnell), but I will not steal his me say to my hon. Friends on the Opposition Front thunder and will be as brief as possible. In particular, I Bench that I am extremely shocked by what has been agree with amendments 95 and 102. As we know, clause said—that they are not willing to support my amendments. 12 would prohibit unions from instigating a strike affecting This is the first time in the history of the labour any officers working for the National Crime Agency movement—the first time ever in the history of the who have operational powers. That would include the Labour party—that this party has supported in Parliament director general of the NCA, and it would give power to the removal of trade union rights from trade unionists. the Home Secretary to take civil action against any That is a significant step and marks a historic change in person or persons who might call, or incite, such a attitude. I urge those on the Front Bench to use these strike. moments in this debate to think about what they are The Government seem to regard the serious-minded doing. people who will be working in this field as little less than This is the party that campaigned to redress the children who might run off on a whim and call a strike disgraceful treatment of GCHQ workers—if people for no reason at all. The quality of those people does remember—all through the ’80s and ’90s, when a not indicate that that is the kind of thing they would do, Conservative Government removed their trade union but I do not think they should be deprived of rights that rights. This is the party that gave commitments to the most workers are accorded. It is only right and proper Prison Officers Association that we would address its for the Government to take a respectful approach to complaint that a Conservative Government had removed those workers and allow them the negotiating rights the right to take strike action from prison officers. I and further rights that most people have. Clause 12(4) urge Labour MPs and others—anyone who is in the goes as far as allowing the Home Secretary to seek an Chamber and anyone watching this debate outside—to injunction restraining a threatened strike by National understand what is happening here today, because this Crime Agency officers holding operational powers. I is significant. This is not a minor matter; this is about believe that such provisions are retrograde and hope taking away a basic human right from a group of that hon. Members will support amendment 95 that workers. It has never been done before in the history of would delete clause 12 in its entirety. our party. I am equally opposed to the provisions in clause 13, I am grateful to my friend the right hon. Member for which would allow the Home Secretary to pass regulations Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) for curtailing his determining the pay, allowances and other terms and speech—we were slightly out of order, Mr Deputy conditions of National Crime Agency officers designated Speaker. with operational powers, including the director general I chair the PCS parliamentary group. It is a large of the NCA. Amendment 102 would delete the clause in group—I think we have 70-odd members on a cross-party its entirety. basis—that represents the workers we are talking about. Clause 24(2) would allow for the contracting out of The PCS represents members in the Home Office and all functions of fines officers. The clause also makes its agencies. It currently has about 2,700 members in the provision for the costs of collecting compensation, fines Serious Organised Crime Agency and will have between and other financial penalties to be recovered from other 3,350 and 3,500 members in the NCA when it is established. offenders. I share the concern of groups such as the The whole discussion up to now has proceeded on the Public and Commercial Services Union that the Bill basis that these are civil servants, who respect the right would allow a crucial element of enforcing sentences to of Government to govern and will therefore do all they be privatised. That would mean private companies being can when there is a restructuring of Departments or in charge of carrying out quasi-judicial functions, such Government agencies to ensure that they support the 343 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 344

Government in that restructuring and implement the attitude was to listen and wait for this debate. I thought policies effectively. However, what the PCS seeks to do we would listen to the members themselves who are on as a trade union is to protect its members’ basic rights, the front line—some of them, just like police officers, wages and working conditions. risk their lives in the work they do—yet who have never The process of negotiation on the restructuring and caused a problem in industrial relations. the new agencies has been going on apace for a number Management have not come forward with these of months. That is what trade unions do: they engage in proposals; they have been brought forward by the negotiations. We thought that there would be discussions Government. This is a Government whim. Someone in about negotiation structures and thus the opportunity Government decided it would be worth trying for a to reach agreement, which is what has been achieved on no-strike provision on this group of workers. It is the a number of issues in these sorts of restructurings right thin end of the wedge, because there are some Conservative across the civil service. However, we now have proposals, Back Benchers who have been seeking to introduce a almost out of the blue, to introduce a no-strike provision no-strike provision across whole sectors of industry. I and remove the right of this group of workers to take think this is the start. This group of workers is the industrial action, as my friend the right hon. Member experiment, to see whether people will acquiesce, and I for Dwyfor Meirionnydd said, and, in addition, to am amazed that those on the Labour Front Bench have install a pay review body appointed by the Government, rolled over. That sends a signal to this Government to again without a negotiated agreement. come forward with proposals for the transport sector That is not the way to set up a new agency, lift and many others, as some have been planning to do for people’s morale or secure their involvement and engagement many years. I am absolutely staggered. How can these in the implementation of policy; it is a rebuttal of all the measures be brought forward unopposed at this stage, negotiations that have taken place. It will mean that a when negotiations are continuing? There could have large number of people will basically lose the right to been a negotiated settlement on the new structures and take industrial action when they have a grievance. What we could have avoided this kind of imposition. I will we are talking about is some people who have the not spend too long on this, because there is another powers of a constable—the powers of arrest. I understand debate in Westminster Hall on the privatisation of the some of the concerns about that, but we are also talking probation service that I would like to get to. This just about Revenue and Customs officers and immigration goes on and on, but at least my own side is putting up officers, who have been treated no differently in the past some opposition to those proposals. from any other civil servants. They have had the same Let us be clear what clauses 12 and 13 will do. They rights of representation and the same trade union rights. will take away from civil servants a fundamental right that they have at the moment: the right to take industrial It is interesting that back in November the Joint action. This is the crossing of the Rubicon. The clauses Committee on Human Rights expressed its concerns will bring in a ban on industrial action that extends well about the plans for NCA officials with operational beyond the police and prison officers, where it already powers to be forbidden to take strike action. The Committee exists, to civil servants, on whom such a ban has never said: been imposed before. This is an unnecessary and unwelcome “we question whether the Government has yet demonstrated by political device that is being used by the Government to reference to actual evidence that there is a pressing need to restrict test the water around their future policies on trade the right of NCA officers to take strike action, bearing in mind that SOCA has so far operated with no restrictions on its officers’ union and employment rights in this country. right to strike. In our view, NCA officers are closer to SOCA As I have said, I think this is the thin end of the officers than police officers. Even if there were evidence of such a wedge. If the clauses are accepted by the House—and need, on the evidence currently available to us we do not consider certainly if they are accepted by my party—on this it to be proportionate to apply the no-strike provision to NCA occasion, this will be used as an example in other areas. officers who hold some of the operational powers, including That is why I am urging people to vote against them, officers who only exercise the operational powers of a customs and I will seek to divide the House on the matter. If I officer or immigration officer and not those of a constable.” have to walk through the Lobby on my own, I will do So this is a human rights issue: the Joint Committee on so, because this is a fundamental matter of principle. Human Rights has said so. It has expressed its concern The workers involved are dedicated civil servants, but while these discussions have been going on. To be frank, they deserve the right to protection and to basic human the industrial relations atmosphere has been good. There and trade union rights if they feel that management or is no evidence of any demand from management for the others are imposing something on them that is unacceptable. new power. Quite the reverse: management have been Most of them never go on strike or take industrial proceeding in the normal way in the negotiations, to see action, but they deserve to have the right to do so if what structures are required to ensure worker engagement. necessary, because that is the only protection they have against oppressive management or employers. Mr Jeremy Browne: Given all the points the hon. I urge comrades on this side of the House—members Gentleman is making and that he started his speech by of the parliamentary Labour party—to use whatever saying that this was a historic first for the Labour party, time we have left in the debate to think again. This is not I am curious to know why he thinks those on the a trivial matter. It is not a simple “tidying-up exercise” Labour Front Bench do not agree with his arguments. in employee-management relationships in the new body; it will undermine a fundamental human right. This John McDonnell: I understand where the hon. Gentleman Government have already been criticised for their refusal is coming from, but I am not playing party politics with to give the right to industrial action back to prison this. I do not have a clue why not: this is the first time I officers. They were criticised by the International Labour knew of it. If this issue was dealt with in Committee Organisation for being in contravention of all the and I missed it, I apologise, but I thought that the international conventions on employment rights, yet 345 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 346

[John McDonnell] It is significant, however, that all the issues that the nationalist parties have raised in the past in relation to there are people here on the Labour Benches today who SOCA have been dealt with. Indeed, some of the are rolling over without a whimper of opposition to arrangements went beyond that point when SOCA was extending that denial of human rights to this group of being set up. As a former member of the Northern workers. That is unacceptable. Ireland Policing Board, I can remember the discussions With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I hope to that took place at the time and the safeguards that were call a Division on this matter when I have the opportunity put in place as a result of concerns being raised by to do so, and I urge Members to vote against the nationalist representatives. measures. This is a significant matter; it is absolutely The deliberations on this Bill went even further, and critical. It is a matter of conscience, not a matter of that makes this outcome even more surprising, given administrative convenience for management and the the assurances that were given about a role for the Government. It is a basic human rights issue, and I urge ombudsman, about the need to ensure that the activities Members to vote for our amendments. of the National Crime Agency did not cross with any PSNI investigations, about the restrictions on the ability Sammy Wilson: It is with regret that I see the references of the Justice Minister to direct the police service to to Northern Ireland and the role of the National Crime co-operate with the NCA in investigations, and about Agency in Northern Ireland being removed from the the role of the surveillance commissioner. A range of Bill, and I want to put some questions to the Minister issues have been dealt with and specifically tailored to on this point. If any part of the United Kingdom needs the situation in Northern Ireland in response to the the effective operation of a national crime agency, it is concerns expressed mostly by Sinn Fein and those in the Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland Affairs Committee nationalist community, yet there is still no agreement in in this House has already identified the fact that hundreds the Executive. of millions of pounds every year are lost to the Exchequer I made a point to the Minister earlier about the and go into the hands of criminal gangs, on many chances of reaching such an agreement when the mindset occasions to finance terrorist activities, as a result of is that any police or security activity that is based in the fuel laundering alone. There are many other areas in United Kingdom and not solely in Northern Ireland is which organised crime plays a big role in Northern unacceptable. It is extremely difficult to reach consensus Ireland. We need the National Crime Agency. on this matter. Suggestions have been made today as to The role that the criminals play is not confined to what could be done. Perhaps we need more time. Would Northern Ireland. Their tentacles spread well beyond that provide the opportunity to iron out these issues? Northern Ireland and dealing with them involves That is a reasonable suggestion, and it would be much operational decisions that cannot be taken solely by the better than pushing this legislation through the House Police Service of Northern Ireland. Indeed, the fact that without taking the opportunity to ensure that it covers they are now laundering their money across Europe and the whole of the United Kingdom. I say all this with north America demonstrates the international dimension some reluctance, because I want the House to respect involved, and the PSNI cannot be expected to deal with the devolution settlement, but I put it to the Minister them alone. that we need an explanation on why a different approach is being taken. Naomi Long: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that a I do not want to go into the details of the Marriage false interface is being created between terrorism and (Same Sex Couples) Bill, but I want to use it to illustrate criminality, which is an extremely blurred area in Northern a principle. In the Committee for that Bill, my hon. Ireland, in that the same people are often involved in Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) put it both activities? Does he also agree that a false interface to the Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media exists in the incorrect assumption that there is some and Sport, the right hon. Member for Faversham and kind of border beyond which the tentacles of those Mid Kent (Hugh Robertson), that there were provisions criminals cannot reach? in the Bill relating to Northern Ireland, even though it was accepted that those were devolved issues. The Minister 2.45 pm replied: Sammy Wilson: Attempts have been made during the “I…agree with the hon. Gentleman that marriages and civil debate to make exactly that distinction, but the hon. Lady partnerships are devolved matters in Scotland and Northern is absolutely right to say that there is no such distinction. Ireland.” It is surprising that the Northern Ireland Executive He then commented, however, about what might happen could not agree on having a legislative consent motion, if the Northern Ireland Assembly did not pass a legislative which would have enabled the Bill to go through complete consent motion. I do not know whether it will—I will with its provisions for Northern Ireland. There has been not comment on that—but the Minister said: some criticism of the Minister, and questions have been “The important thing here is that I, as a UK Minister, cannot asked about what he has done for Northern Ireland. leave people who undertake a same-sex marriage in this country Extensive discussions have taken place between his in legal limbo in the hon. Gentleman’s part of the world.”––[Official Department and the Department of Justice and the Report, Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Public Bill Committee, 7 March 2013; c. 420.] Justice Minister in Northern Ireland. I know that the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) is probably The implication is that the Government would legislate going to say that he wanted a more direct interface with regardless of the Assembly’s views. his party and with Sinn Fein, but of course that is I do not make this point lightly, because I want the difficult, given that Sinn Fein refuses to take part in any lines of demarcation between the devolved Administrations of the activities of this House. and the Westminster Government made clear, but if 347 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 348 those lines can be crossed on that issue, why should they Paul Goggins: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. not be crossed in respect of the far more important Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), who spoke matter of criminals siphoning off hundreds of millions with his usual authority and attention to detail. I shall of pounds from the Exchequer to fund criminal and return to some of his points later. terrorist organisations and to launder money across the I am deeply unhappy about new clause 3, which world? Why does the Minister not regard that as equally would provide the Home Secretary with an order-making important? Why have the Government not even power to change the lead responsibility for counter-terrorism contemplated doing that if they cannot reach an agreement by secondary legislation. In an intervention, I said it in Northern Ireland? This affects not just a few individuals, seemed odd that the Government wanted fresh but the very fabric of communities in Northern Ireland primary legislation to extend pre-charge detention beyond now controlled by these crime barons, especially in 14 days—where urgent action would be needed if speed border areas. were of the essence—but here, on something that That would not be my preferred option. I would needs to be considered very carefully and at great rather get agreement before the Bill passes, even if that length, they want to provide for an order-making means delaying it, in order to ensure UK coverage for power. I deeply regret that the Minister has the NCA. I sat in on the discussions, and I can say that completely ignored the Second Reading debate, the SDLP is nervous about being outflanked by Sinn when the Home Secretary said that she had not made Fein, and Sinn Fein is worried about being outflanked up her mind. He failed to produce an amendment in by the SDLP.For political reasons, there is an unwillingness Committee. Even though we finished our deliberations to come to an agreement and have the UK Government in Committee a day early, we had no opportunity to legislate on policing matters in Northern Ireland. I also scrutinise this proposal. We can debate whether lead suspect that some sympathise with the crime barons responsibility should be with the Met or the NCA, but and so do not want effective policing. The PSNI cannot it should be decided in fresh primary, not secondary, replicate the NCA’s role. It does not have the resources— legislation. even if it had the financial resources, it would not have As we heard, an unfortunate side effect of the proposal the personnel expertise—which leaves a huge gap when is that some in Northern Ireland have been able to it comes to fighting organised crime in Northern Ireland. suggest that it muddies the waters in relation to who is For all those reasons, I am disappointed that the in charge of counter-terrorism operations and investigations. Government have meekly walked away, rather than I asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland last saying what could be done to ensure that Northern week whether she would clarify that, and very helpfully Ireland is given the same coverage as other parts of she said: the UK. “The primacy of the Chief Constable is retained to ensure consistency with the devolution of policing and justice.”—[Official Mr Dodds: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Report, 6 March 2013; Vol. 559, c. 941.] making his argument so powerfully. Does he agree that The Chief Constable has the lead in counter-terrorism, this might be a matter of national security, which of yet some have been able to suggest that that is confused course is not devolved—the Northern Ireland Secretary by the Home Secretary’s proposal. That is a regrettable still has responsibility for it? Given that the Security further side effect of the proposal. If the Government Service operates in Northern Ireland, would he also prevail today, I hope that those in another place will agree, in respect of the NCA, that we should have some once again throw the measure out. flexibility regarding the national position, as opposed Like virtually everyone in the House—I think an to considering it purely in terms of the devolved situation? exception might be made in a short while—I am deeply unhappy that the Government have had to table new Sammy Wilson: That is another way of looking at schedule 1 to deal with the lack of a legislative motion how to get coverage in Northern Ireland. The Minister in Northern Ireland. I generally accept the argument cannot simply say, “Well, we haven’t got the agreement advanced by the hon. Member for East Antrim that we of the Executive.” I do not know whether we will ever cannot simply blame the Ministers in this Government, get that agreement. Some reasonable and substantial but there has been a clear lack of urgency and clarity changes have been made to the Bill as it affects the from them about who has the lead in these negotiations. NCA’s operation in Northern Ireland, as a result of the Negotiations in the context of Northern Ireland are efforts of Justice Ministers—who, incidentally, acted hard work, but I have not really seen any evidence that not in isolation, but as a result of representations from they have been taking place. It may be that that has the very parties that have opposed the legislative consent been going on hidden from view, but if it has been going motion. on, it ought to continue apace because it is essential to resolve this issue—the sooner, the better. I accept that, under the Bill, the Home Secretary may, at some future date—presumably after she has got a signal from the parties in Northern Ireland—introduce 3pm the necessary changes, but I do not know whether that There is a balance to be struck between autonomy will ever be possible. That is why the Government and collaboration. That is particularly important in the should keep open the option of considering whether the Northern Ireland context. I respect the Patten reforms demarcation between the devolved authorities and the and all that has come from them, whether it be the authority of this House could and should be blurred to Policing Board, the ombudsman, the position of the take this matter forward. If a Minister can threaten to Minister and the position of the Assembly committee—all do such a thing on something like civil partnerships and those are absolutely essential parts of the architecture same-sex marriage, there is an even stronger case for of policing in Northern Ireland, which provide the doing it here. autonomy it should have. 349 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 350

I am siding today with my colleagues from the (Naomi Long). I think it is a mistake to take the Democratic Unionist party on the substantial issue— Northern Ireland Justice Minister out of the loop of perhaps parting company, who knows, with my hon. consultation, as suggested by the Minister in new schedule Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan),who is 1. That Northern Ireland Minister will no longer be yet to catch your eye, Mr Deputy Speaker. I have also consulted on strategic priorities, on the annual plan or been prepared to do the opposite. I championed 50:50 indeed in respect of the appointment of a director-general. recruitment, for example, because it was essential to We have an impasse here: taking the Northern Ireland ensure that we delivered as a Government on the Patten Justice Minister out of the loop of consultation is, I reforms in their completeness. Particularly in respect of think, the result of a failure to co-operate or to show organised crime, we also must make provision for the right spirit. We want to get this issue dealt with collaboration. When it comes to human trafficking, across the line, not to retreat from the line. My hon. smuggling and the laundering of fuel, we have to operate Friend the Member for Belfast East made an important initially on a UK-wide basis, but also, of course, with point in her intervention. David Ford chairs the Organised Ireland and indeed countries across Europe and throughout Crime Task Force and is in a leading position in the the world. Organised crime is global business; we must fight against organised crime, so not to consult him on operate on that basis. these key issues is a big mistake. Having no legislative consent motion means that, In that context, the Minister has described himself as when it comes to customs and immigration, for example, a “collegiate” Minister—and who am I to argue with certain activities will still go on and we will not see the that description? I was rather hoping, in that spirit, that full-blown co-operation that we need. In Committee, I he would have come back with an amendment to schedule 6, proposed the organised crime task force system in Northern paragraph 1(2), which deals with inspection. Provision Ireland as a model for the rest of the country, bringing is made there for inspections relating to the NCA in together all the partners in the fight against organised Scotland, but no mention is made—there is still no crime: the Police Service of Northern Ireland, the Serious mention of it anywhere in the Bill—of Criminal Justice Organised Crime Agency in its present form, private Inspection Northern Ireland. It inspects the police there. business, Government Departments and a whole array It should be involved in any inspection of the NCA. In of people, including the Policing Board, all working the spirit of trying to move this forward to get a meeting together to combat organised crime. Just a glance at last of minds, the Minister could, even at this late stage, year’s annual report will show the benefits of that make a commitment to involve Criminal Justice Inspection approach. Northern Ireland in the same way that he is involving the Scottish inspectors in Scotland. Naomi Long: I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman would agree that there is another important issue here, Secondly, the Minister has to tell us more about how to which the Government might be able to respond. the negotiations will continue. Who is in the lead? Is he Where the NCA is operating in the reserved field in in the lead? Is it the Home Secretary or the Secretary of Northern Ireland, we will still have an input into the State for Northern Ireland? Is there a meeting this organised crime effort. The Home Secretary, however, week? Is there a meeting next week? Are Ministers has removed the statutory requirement to consult the planning to meet the parties? How is it being done? Is Department of Justice and the Justice Minister in Northern there any real urgency in the negotiations that should be Ireland on strategic priorities and in respect of the happening? Are Ministers just sitting back and waiting annual plan by the director-general. That leaves another for Northern Ireland politicians to come forward? We deficit that could be filled if the Government acted now. really need to know whether something is happening. As I said, negotiation is hard work, but it is important Paul Goggins: I compliment my hon. Friend on her for Ministers to get on with it. ingenuity in seeing two pages ahead in my speaking Thirdly, let me deal with operational co-operation. I notes; I will come on to her very important point in a particularly want the Minister to address the issue of few moments. the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre. I was reflecting on the effectiveness of the Organised Frankly, many of our constituents think that CEOP, an Crime Task Force and how SOCA has been able to excellent organisation, operates independently, but it is work with all the other law-enforcement agencies. Last in fact part of SOCA and will be part of the National year alone—this is in the annual report—£13 million-worth Crime Agency. The huge irony is that Jim Gamble, an of drugs were seized, 33 potential victims of human excellent first chief executive, is from Northern Ireland trafficking were rescued, £4.44 million-worth of criminal and was a former officer with the Royal Ulster Constabulary. assets were seized, and the list goes on. That is the result He did so much to put CEOP in the place it is as a world of working together to combat organised crime. That is leader in this field. now being put at risk because of the breakdown in What is going to happen in Northern Ireland? Will negotiations and the failure to get a legislative consent the Chief Constable have to establish a new team to motion. As reported by the BBC today, a recent massive deal with these issues? What happens if CEOP has operation against the illegal fuel trade involved law intelligence and important information about paedophiles enforcement north and south of the border, with 300 in Northern Ireland? What is going to be done? What officers deployed. If we do not get that sort of co-operation are the practical arrangements that Ministers are overseeing continuing at the highest possible level and to the fullest and how will they ensure that they are in place to deal extent, the impact of such operations will be greatly with such problems? It is important not just to have diminished. reassurance about the operational responsibilities but I have four specific points to put to the Minister, to ensure that the message goes out to people that, if some involving broader issues. The first has been alluded they know of abuse or if they have been abused, they to by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East must come forward to report it. Goodness me, after all 351 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 352 we are supposed to have learned from Savile, any message I fully understand and support what the right hon. that says “Frankly, CEOP is closed in Northern Ireland” Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) said about new clause 3. would be a dreadful message to send. It is essential that I have a particular and positive regard for the principle the Minister provides some reassurance about that. contained in subsection (2), which relates to the Chief Constable of the PSNI, but the wider issues raised by Naomi Long: I hope I can reassure my right hon. the new clause are also important, and I share the Friend slightly. The Justice Minister is aware of that concern that was expressed about them by the right particular risk and is working to try to put in place hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul mechanisms to ensure that such a gap does not exist Goggins) and others. and that alternative arrangements are available for Like others, I find it regrettable that, in new schedule 1, co-operation and the trading of information, if we fail we have a clumsy legislative provision that precludes to get to the desirable point where the whole of the functions for the time being, but provides for them to be NCA is operating properly in Northern Ireland. introduced later by order, subject to other agreements. That proves that time was not used properly to secure those agreements. I do not believe that agreement on Paul Goggins: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for such matters is impossible. The discussions have been that assurance. It is timely to pay tribute to David Ford, positive and practical rather than intractable. It is not a the Justice Minister in Northern Ireland, who has done question of people trying to play politics, which some a superb job since devolution and who is, even now, people unworthily accused us of doing some time ago. looking at and trying to deal with the risks that may The character of the discussions with the Minister and occur if consent is not given to these provisions. It does his officials, and indeed the constructive role of the not come as a surprise to me at all to know that he is Minister’s special adviser, has been entirely positive. No trying to plug the gaps in these provisions. The Minister, one is saying, “Because this is coming from England, however, is the Minister responsible for the NCA and we want nothing to do with it.” There is no “green for CEOP, so that Minister has to offer us some against green” competition. That is certainly not the reassurances. SDLP’s position. My last point is about the relationship between the As I said in an intervention, some of us raised issues NCA and the Northern Ireland Policing Board. The in relation to this Bill, and similar but different issues in hon. Member for East Antrim made the point that relation to the Justice and Security Bill. We pointed out when he was a member of the Policing Board it was that there would be implications and complications important to establish what the relationship was between when it came to the interface with, and the impact on, a UK-wide body and the Northern Ireland Policing Northern Ireland and the Patten architecture. We cannot Board. I remember going, as the Minister responsible throw in new fixtures and fittings that are UK-wide, or for policing in Northern Ireland, to the Policing Board—I even Northern Ireland-specific, and say that some of did that once a year—for a formal session on organised them do not affect the Patten architecture, if their crime. I would take with me senior SOCA officers, so character does affect it, or possibly affects it. When it that the Policing Board could ask them questions and comes to such matters as legislative consent motions, get to the bottom of certain issues. We were as open as members of my party—as conscientious legislators both we possibly could be, even though there was no formal here and in the Assembly—must ask ourselves whether requirement for accountability. That was the spirit in we have fully understood the implications, and assured which we operated. What will happen now? If the NCA ourselves that the results of these legislative changes is to have no formal relationship in Northern Ireland, will be positive. Are we persuaded that they will add to the danger is that such discussions, formal and informal, the fighting and the reducing of crime, but will not will cease to happen. Yet the NCA will still have cause any difficulties in relation to the policing ethos, responsibilities for customs and immigration in Northern the upholding of the Patten principles and the new start Ireland. There will be a loss of communication and to policing? dialogue about those and other important issues. That is something we have consistently done. The There is a huge agenda here. I hope that the Minister right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East and will be able to offer us some reassurance about the I have had many discussions about the whole issue of urgency with which he is dealing with these matters and national security—about the re-routing of certain the negotiations that need to take place, and that he will responsibilities and balances of interest, and about the respond in detail to the points that I, and others, have changes that were made in the context of the St Andrews raised. There are continuing and serious differences of agreement, which took some of the Patten accountability opinion in Northern Ireland, which must be respected and the Patten complaints process out of some of the and worked through in a democratic way, but surely purview of national security. there should be absolute unanimity when it comes to the need to combat organised crime and the awful evil We opposed that. We had worked hard to ensure that that it brings. That, at least, should be a matter of the issue of policing would be addressed in the negotiations absolute consensus between the politicians of Northern for the Good Friday agreement when no other party Ireland. would address it, and we had ensured that an international commission was set up. Having done that, and having helped to drive the Patten reform programme, we Mark Durkan: Let me begin by saying that if the hon. were not going to say, “That does not matter. We never Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) really cared about those principles. It was purely presses amendments 95 and 102 to a Division, my ephemeral.” When we saw measures relating to colleagues and I will vote for them. My name is also national security that we thought might provide a way attached to those amendments. of getting around or undermining Patten, we registered 353 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 354

[Mark Durkan] sphere of influence. We were trying to clarify all those matters, and the same applies here. We need to know our concern about them, and we must ensure that that about any additional policing element. does not happen in the case of the National Crime The Bill with which we were originally presented Agency. provided for constabulary powers to be given to National Crime Agency officers in Northern Ireland, and we 3.15 pm needed to know how they would be aligned with the constabulary powers of the PSNI. The Bill also provided The SDLP worked hard to secure accountability. We for NCA special constables in Northern Ireland. I think were dealing with Unionist parties which told us that the hon. Gentleman would have been very surprised that no change was needed, and we were being attacked if, four and a half decades on from all the working and by Sinn Fein, which told us that no change was striving to get rid of the B-specials, nationalist parties happening. Of course we are going to be precious and did not question legislation providing for new special pedantic about the need to ensure that the integrity of constables. Those are exactly the sort of provisions that the change that we worked so hard to secure, with very people want to address in a sensible way. little help from anyone else, is respected and protected, and that is what we are trying to do. We Naomi Long: I do not doubt for a minute that the should all have been afforded more time earlier in the hon. Gentleman’s concerns about wanting the NCA to process, and a fuller, more open discussion when we had operate in a way that respects the devolved settlement a draft Bill. That is not a criticism of David Ford as the and secures the progress that has been made in policing devolved Minister of Justice. It is possible that we need are genuine, but he has referred on a number of occasions to be less precious as a Parliament about which other to the original draft Bill, and considerable changes have parties can be in on discussions about the drafting been made to it to get to where we are today—leaving and preparation of a Bill when a significant devolved aside the fact that we are not going to delete all references interest is involved. If more had been done earlier in to Northern Ireland. Huge progress has been made on that regard, we would not have been left with the constables and their status, answering to the ombudsman present unseemly situation. and other issues. Therefore, will he outline the remaining concerns that need to be addressed, so we can get over Sammy Wilson: The hon. Gentleman’s view on policing the line? and the safeguards that are required obviously differs from mine, but all the discussion to which he has Mark Durkan: The hon. Lady’s point about the referred happened a long time ago, when SOCA was set discussions and modifications that have already been up. The relationships between the Policing Board and made proves that many of us have raised valid concerns. SOCA and between the ombudsman and SOCA, and When they are validly accommodated, we accept that, the safeguards that were to be provided, are still in and we will want to raise any further outstanding place, and indeed have been added to. I cannot concerns. understand—I am sure it would be useful to the Minister to know this as well—where the gaps which, according What would have happened if we had not raised our to the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), still exist misgivings? For a long time people were saying, “That’s can be found. The safeguards that his party agreed were just an SDLP hobby-horse.” For instance, it was certainly necessary in the past were adequate and have been said that I was still hung up on all the stuff about MI5 added to, but there seems still to be a reluctance to and so forth. It was said that we had too much emotional accept that the National Crime Agency will be able to and intellectual capital invested in the Patten reforms, operate in the context of the Bill. and that we had a hang-up. Latterly, Sinn Fein seemed to realise some of the issues as well, but it is not a matter of them trying to outflank us, or us trying Mark Durkan: The reluctance is not a reluctance to outflank them. We, as parties, have a duty. see the National Crime Agency operate or make a due contribution to the fighting and the reducing of crime We have made our own contributions and decisions in Northern Ireland, and crime that reaches into or out about the new policing dispensation. If we are saying of Northern Ireland and affects other territories. The that assurances are in place and policing in Northern hon. Gentleman mentioned SOCA. When SOCA was Ireland both now and in the future is different from the first proposed, his party and mine had reservations historical policing dispensation, we have to show that about it, but many of those reservations were concerned that will continue to be the case, and that it is not being with whether it would mean the loss of the valuable got around by the lateral legislation and policing work done by the Criminal Assets Bureau. We wondered arrangements being produced by the Government here. whether level 1 crime would be dealt with by the PSNI We have the NCA taking over from SOCA. As the and level 3 would be dealt with by SOCA, and whether hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) said, criminals knew that if they kept their criminal activity we agreed with, and came to terms with, some of the within level 2, there would be no one to deal with it. SOCA arrangements and the safeguards in relation to Many issues arose in relation to SOCA, not just the it. Then the NCA came along, and it cannot be the case issue of whether UK policing would affect Northern that parties will just say, “Whatever other changes you Ireland. We were seriously worried, for instance, about at Westminster want, and whatever you’re having yourself, SOCA’s role in relation to the role of MI5. The notion we’ll just take it and we won’t look at what difference it of what is classified as national security, and of what a makes to us.” We need to be reassured. Government treat as national security, seems to be Time should have been taken to address this matter. something of a movable feast in terms of the level of This is not a criticism of the Minister or anyone else; it crime operations that are deemed to be within MI5’s might be to do with how legislative consent motions are 355 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 356 handled, and how we get better joined-up scrutiny Ireland does not lose out under the new dispensation by between a devolved Assembly in Northern Ireland and injury to the Patten architecture, but that we do not lose Westminster so we are not left in the current clumsy out on any equipment we might need to combat serious situation, which is not just the case in relation to this crime and to be part of combating it on a wider territorial Bill. Sometimes, legislative consent motions come before basis. The asset recovery issues he raises point to important the Assembly long after a Bill has passed through this issues. It is imperative that we have full and proper place. Introducing such motions earlier might give the discussions on all such matters. Assembly more influence on the form of the legislation On the criminal intelligence function, I hope we can or the sensitivities that need to be taken into account. put great store by what the Minister said in reply to my There are lessons to be learned at the procedural level intervention about some of the functions not being for all of us, therefore. precluded by the measures. He said the criminal intelligence I am not trying to point a finger at the devolved function will still be discharged by the NCA in Northern Minister or anybody else. As others have said, however, Ireland, and that it will not be involved in running its these issues were raised with Northern Ireland Office own informers and so forth. The House should not have Ministers early last year, and they were asked, “What to be reminded that it is only a few months since we all are you doing through conversations with the Home sat here shocked at the revelations in the de Silva report Office and devolved interests to make sure these issues about what happens when people are running agents are being well accommodated?” They did not seem to and informers and some police know about it and know, or to want to know, what we were talking about. others do not. We end up with scandalous situations, which are central to people’s concerns about confidence Paul Goggins: I want to take this opportunity to pay in policing in Northern Ireland. We have to make sure tribute to the hon. Gentleman and his party for all the people know that we can never go back to that situation risks they have taken down the years in relation to again, by default, by design or by any other means. policing. They have often been willing to become members There is no point in us saying “Yes, we’ve sorted out of the Policing Board and other bodies, which have put full accountable policing and none of the old things can policing at the heart of the community for everybody. happen,” only for people to find all sorts of other things The longer I listen to his speech, the more I hear that going on, and we then say, “Yes, but that was nothing to there is an issue of principle that has to be respected, do with the accountable devolved policing. That was and I agree with that, but there is also an issue about to do with these other policing arrangements we helped time, and there has been insufficient time to have the to legislate for.” We are then like Clouseau in one of the detailed discussions needed. I am amazed the Minister “Pink Panther” movies where he sees a man with a dog has not leapt to his feet to intervene to offer the hon. and asks, “Does your dog bite?” The man says, “No.” Gentleman discussions very soon to resolve this whole Clouseau pets the dog and the dog nearly takes his arm matter as quickly as possible. off. Clouseau then says, “I thought you told me your dog doesn’t bite,” and the man says, “That’s not my Mark Durkan: I welcome what the right hon. Gentleman dog.” We cannot say, “We’ve sorted out policing, and says. We have mentioned some of the discussions that we have full accountability and a full and open complaints have taken place involving different parties and the process, but meanwhile anything goes in relation to how Minister and his officials. Some of them have also this Parliament here at Westminster legislates for other involved the director of the NCA, and I understand aspects of policing.” We have to get this right for now that he came away with a new appreciation about how and for the future. the Policing Board accountability arrangements worked. The hon. Member for East Antrim raised an issue He said no police agency at any level could be expected that was close to being a red herring: what is or might be to be involved in accountability in such a way, only to provided for in relation to Northern Ireland in the find that senior Police Service of Northern Ireland Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill. As I read it, that officers said, “Well, we are, and it works.” A fuller legislation basically says that a same-sex marriage conducted conversation would have been better, therefore, and the in England or Wales will have the status only of a civil relevant Westminster Ministers should have been involved partnership in Northern Ireland or in Scotland. In one in those discussions earlier, rather than leaving it to respect, Ministers could argue that they are respecting everybody else. the legal position in Scotland and in Northern Ireland, and are saying, “We won’t do anything that does injury Mr Hanson: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that his to that, interferes with that or introduces any other new arguments about this particular matter also relate to the language or different standing.” I do not accept the next set of amendments on asset recovery? It is important hon. Gentleman’s point about a comparison with that that we have an opportunity to test the Government on Bill’s provisions, as they stand. The comparison is that what they are doing to close the loophole in that regard, there was a danger that the way in which this Bill was and I am conscious that we have limited time to do that. providing for Northern Ireland was going to damage I hope he will either reflect on those concerns now or carefully developed and agreed procedures in place in ensure that we can debate them, as the asset recovery Northern Ireland. issue is particularly important because there is no asset recovery in Northern Ireland, and I know he is concerned about that. 3.30 pm I wish to deal with one other point. When we raised Mark Durkan: I fully accept what the right hon. concerns about constabulary powers, we were accused Gentleman says. Our concern is not to make sure that of wanting all the paedophiles and child exploiters to be the NCA has no remit or writ in relation to Northern free to do what they want. That was what was said Ireland. Our concern is to ensure not only that Northern about the National Crime Agency not having constabulary 357 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 358 powers, but of course the Child Exploitation and Online Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP) rose— Protection Centre does not have constabulary powers, and it does not particularly need or want them. Some of Mr Browne: There is a lot of desire to discuss proceeds the issues we raised are shared by Jim Gamble; he has of crime in Northern Ireland, so, ironically, the longer I shared in some of our concerns and highlighted others speak, the less chance Members will have to speak of his own. Those of us who have issues are not purely about Northern Ireland matters. I will give way once, playing politics; we are trying to make sure that policing, but I will not give way again, unless I have said something at all its levels, and in all its natures and its full character, that offends people’s sensibilities. is right and stays right. Ian Paisley: The Minister certainly has not offended Mr Browne: Time is short and so, although I will try my sensibilities. He accepts that the Bill is deficient and to give a thorough response, I may be sparing in the will be deficient in its operation—he accepted that in number of interventions I take, for reasons that hon. Committee—and as he cannot obtain consent for the Members will understand. legislation in Northern Ireland, he is left with a choice. A lot of points were made about new clause 3 and the He can either ignore that and plough on without that changes with regard to Northern Ireland. I will deal consent or implement the legislation from this place. I with those and then briefly with the amendments. I will think that it will boil down to that choice. The House not address the Government amendments, even though will have to determine whether it will face down the I have not yet spoken about those. The right hon. unjustified opposition to the implementation of the Bill Members for Delyn (Mr Hanson) and for Wythenshawe in Northern Ireland. and Sale East (Paul Goggins) made particular points about new clause 3, with the former making the point Mr Browne: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that a super-affirmative order could not be amended. that intervention, if only because it allows me to clarify that it is our intention to abide by the Sewel convention. It is worth drawing the House’s attention to the fact We are not in the business of facing down, as he puts it, that the procedure in the Bill requires the Home Secretary to elected representatives in Northern Ireland, as we want “have regard to to proceed with their approval and consent. (a) any representations, It is worth making it clear to the House that the NCA (b) any resolution of either House of Parliament, and will still have a role in Northern Ireland, as there is a (c) any recommendations of a committee of either House”. danger that a casual observer of our deliberations might think otherwise. I can confirm that some types of cross- As I said earlier, we envisage that in those circumstances border crime will fall within the remit of the NCA in the cross-party Select Committee on Home Affairs Northern Ireland, even in its constrained form. For would consider proposals brought forward. After the example, the NCA in Northern Ireland will be able to Home Secretary has considered those matters, she may tackle immigration or customs offences. The NCA and revise the order before inviting each House to agree the CEOP will continue to be able to co-operate with partners amended order. The point I am making is that, although in Northern Ireland and we are seeking to mitigate the there may not be a provision for the House to amend operational impact of the situation we find ourselves in. such an order at the end of the deliberations, there will be multiple opportunities for different bodies of Parliament The NCA and CEOP will continue to operate in to inform any recommendations that the Home Secretary Northern Ireland, but it is worth saying that that operation may wish to bring to our attention. That detailed scrutiny will be curtailed as a result of the absence of legislative process may be more comprehensive and may contain consent. In a way, that illustrates the wider point. There more provision for amendment and scrutiny than attaching will be an NCA function in Northern Ireland and an item of primary legislation into an overarching obviously we hope and believe that it will benefit the so-called Christmas tree Bill at another stage. There is a people of Northern Ireland. It will not be as comprehensive danger of the House underestimating the degree of as we would have wished, but there is provision for it to scrutiny that will be available to Members, and the be made more comprehensive in the future, as and when Government would certainly wish such a serious measure the political will and consensus in Northern Ireland to be scrutinised effectively. provides for that. We had a lot of debate about Northern Ireland, and Let me deal briefly with the non-Government it is worth stressing that I agree with the central thrust amendments. New clause 2, tabled by the right hon. of the points that have been made by nearly every Member for Delyn, seeks to provide for a review of the Member who has spoken; the United Kingdom NCA within 12 months of Royal Assent. I think I said Government wish the NCA’s provisions to reach right earlier that the NCA would come into effect in October across the UK, and in so much as they do not that is a 2013, but for the avoidance of doubt let me clarify the source of regret to us. I therefore think that there is no Government’s position. We wish the NCA to come into difference between the Government’s position and that effect by the end of 2013. Our target date is October, of most Members who have spoken on that point. but that will obviously depend on matters that are not Obviously, a number of meetings have taken place necessarily directly within our control, including potential between officials, Ministers here in London and Ministers issues to do with Parliament. in Northern Ireland, but David Ford, the Northern The new clause asks for a review during the 12 months Ireland Justice Minister, has led the main body of after Royal Assent. Obviously, we want to keep a close discussions. As legislative consent is a devolved process, eye on the effectiveness and accountability of the NCA it was for him to take forward the discussions with his when it is up and running and that is a core job of Executive colleagues and the political parties. That is Government and Parliament, but the Government do the proper way to proceed. not believe that an additional formal review mechanism 359 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 360 is necessary. There are plenty of other means by which have supported us on this all along, and they have good Ministers and Parliament can examine the progress reason for doing so. I want to try to persuade the hon. made by the NCA and by which Parliament can examine Member for Hayes and Harlington that Labour is right the actions and decisions of Ministers. to support the Government’s position, so let me explain Amendment 3 would make the director general’s our position. power to provide assistance to any overseas Government Amendments 95 and 102 seek to remove the restriction or body subject to the prior approval of the Secretary of on the right to strike for NCA officers with operational State. It is worth noting that there is no equivalent powers. This is an important measure to ensure that the requirement for the Secretary of State to seek consent NCA can protect the public from the threat of serious in statute for SOCA, HMRC or the security and intelligence and organised crime and be operationally effective around services. We see no reason why we should create unnecessary the clock, every day of the year. Criminals do not stop statutory barriers to continuing the good work that when there is strike action. The threat to the British already happens. Day-to-day assistance between the public from serious and organised crime is a constant NCA and its overseas partners will be so routine that it threat and we do not want NCA operations disrupted would be completely impractical to require the Secretary or jeopardised by striking NCA officers. In the interests of State to give consent in every instance. of public safety, it is therefore necessary that we restrict On amendments 95 and 102, I must say that it was the right to strike of certain NCA officers. That will refreshing to hear the principal argument being made apply to NCA officers with operational powers. This is by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John not about banning NCA officers from being members McDonnell), who made the case for trade unionism. of a trade union, should they wish; it is about ensuring Those points were not given more than a passing and that the public remain protected at all times. cursory airing in Committee and were not raised by the Labour Front Bench, so we are not minded to agree to My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has been the amendments given that, as I understand it, there is clear that our strong preference is to put in place a consensus among the political parties that the Government voluntary no-strike agreement with those unions that are right and the Labour party enthusiastically supports will be recognised by the NCA. That would, in practice, the Government’s position on the trade unions. impose strike restrictions on the vast majority of NCA officers and establish an alternative method for resolving disputes with the organisation. If that is achieved, the Mr Hanson: Would the Minister clarify for me, given Bill gives the Home Secretary a power to suspend the what my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington operation of the provisions restricting the right to strike. (John McDonnell) has said, who he believes will be In essence, therefore, the no-strike provision is designed covered by the provisions of clause 12 in addition to as a reserve provision. those, such as Keith Bristow, who are accredited police officers? I return to the central point: I think the public will not be able to understand why, if they are at threat from Mr Browne: It is interesting; we now do have interest serious and organised crime, the agencies of the state, from the Opposition Front Bench. which are paid for from our taxes to protect the public from that serious and organised crime, should not be John McDonnell rose— available 24 hours a day to do so. The threat to the public exists 24 hours a day. I would ask the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington to reflect on that Mr Browne: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, central point, because as I understand it, unless those and then I will speak to the amendments in the group. on the Labour Front Bench have changed their position, it has been accepted by the Labour party that we should John McDonnell: It is important that we hear a be seeking to protect the public around the clock. I response to the question asked by my right hon. Friend invite the hon. Gentleman to accept that point too. the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), because the people who are covered in the legislation are not just police officers; they are immigration officers, they are customs John McDonnell: Of course that is the case; we all officers. What has also happened is that, as of three accept the need to protect the public. Until now, customs weeks ago, the staff have been notified. Some of those and revenue officers—the immigration officers—have officers from SOCA who will be moving across had no been able to do that without having the right to strike powers; their powers had lapsed. They have been told withdrawn. That is what the Labour party thought was that by October, investiture day, their powers will be happening. The Labour Front-Bench team thought that returned to them and they will be included in the cache the provision related to policing powers, but it has gone of people to whom the no-strike provisions apply. That well beyond that. A briefing was circulated to all MPs means that, already, 1,500 people—possibly—will be on Friday to explain that. Some people are saying that included, as well as potentially another 900 staff. The they did not receive it. I have a list of the e-mail provision goes beyond police officers to immigration addresses that it went to, so I know who got it. That officers and customs officers. briefing showed, in the explanation from management to staff, that the provision has gone well beyond what Mr Browne: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s Ministers originally proposed, which was just for police intervention. Let me explain the Government’s position officers. It has been extended to immigration officers— and see whether I can persuade him to take the customs officers—who have always had the right to same view as those on the Labour Front Bench. [HON. strike and yet have always protected our country. This is MEMBERS: “Answer the question.”] I will; I am coming a massive step beyond anything that was proposed to it. Calm down. Those on the Labour Front Bench initially in the Bill. 361 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 362

3.45 pm John McDonnell: This is about exactly what my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn said. This is what we Mr Browne: If the Opposition spokespeople have call legislating; this is what we call debate. We discover changed their position— during the passage of legislation the implications of John McDonnell: They have not changed their position. that legislation. I did not serve on the Bill Committee, so this is my opportunity to discover and debate. We Mr Browne: Well, if they have come to see the wisdom have all discovered that the intention of the Bill is to of the position adopted by the hon. Member for Hayes remove the right to strike, not from police officers but and Harlington and accept the inadequacies of their from immigration and customs officers, who are civil previous position, they will support him when he presses servants—they are not police officers. That was never the amendment to a Division. the intention behind any of the debates until now, and on that basis, I urge hon. Members on both sides of the Mr Hanson rose— House to vote for the amendment. If the Government need to return with clarification at a later stage in Mr Browne: Let me finish the point. [Interruption.] I another place, that is fair enough, but we must ensure will give way; I have already done so, and I will do so that we do not introduce legislation in the House that is again, but there is a serious point to be made. NCA a fundamental attack on a fundamental human right. officers with operational powers should, as they are paid to do from our taxes, protect the public 24 hours a Mr Browne: I will clarify the fact that the intention of day from the threat of serious and organised crime. We this part of the Bill is very straightforward. There is a want that arrangement to be secured through negotiation, serious threat to the public of the United Kingdom as I have outlined, but the bottom line is that we want 24 hours a day from serious and organised crime, and the public to be protected by the NCA around the we want the new National Crime Agency to meet and clock, because the threat from serious and organised counter that threat from the people who perpetrate it crime exists around the clock. If Opposition Members 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. So we want a consensus do not want NCA officers with operational powers to to be arrived at about the best way that these affairs can be available around the clock, they should say so explicitly. be structured, but we do not want people to be threatened by serious and organised crime and for operational Mr Hanson: It may come as a surprise to the Minister, officers at the National Crime Agency to be unavailable but part of the purpose of Report is to discuss matters to counter that threat. of implementation. My hon. Friend the Member for Labour Members appear to have changed their position Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) has raised and we will have a Division in the House of Commons concerns that were circulated late on Friday. I just want on that. I hope that enough Members of the two parties clarification from the Minister as to what he means by in coalition will share my view and the view of the “some officers”. Will he confirm whether customs officers Government that it is not appropriate for the public to and immigration officers will be included in the provision be left exposed to the threat from serious and organised under clause 12, as opposed to just police officers, crime in the way that is envisaged by the hon. Member whom we understand to be those who have constable for Hayes and Harlington, which appears, in this ever roles, as the Opposition understood in Committee? shifting situation, now to be endorsed by the right hon. Member for Delyn as well. Mr Browne: Let me say two things. Nothing in the Government’s position has changed since Committee. Mr Hanson rose— There is an idea that this is something that has been circulated at the last moment and which Labour has Mr Browne: Having been told that Labour Whips suddenly discovered, but the Bill is the Bill. If there are wanted us to proceed quickly, I give way for the fifth agonies in the Labour party about where—[Interruption.] time to the Opposition. Hon. Members should wait a second; I am trying to answer the right hon. Gentleman’s point. If the Labour Mr Hanson: I am grateful to the Minister. He should party cannot decide where it stands on the matter, that know that one of our concerns is that police officers is for it to resolve internally. should not have the right to strike, and we have supported I have been given a note that confirms what I have that. I wanted clarification from him, which perhaps we said. For the avoidance of doubt, I said that the measure should have sought in Committee when we discussed applies to people with operational powers, and the Bill the detail of the matter, but he appears to be getting has always provided that those NCA officers designated notes from his officials about that. Information has with operational powers— police, customs or immigration come to light with regard to customs officers and powers—will be prevented from striking. That is what immigration officers, and we wanted clarification on the measure said from the outset. I feel bad, because the that. I cannot support the amendment tabled by my hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington is being told by hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington Labour Whips that they are all on his side and so on. He calling for the removal of the whole clause, but clarification should have served on the Committee, because Labour is certainly needed on the matter. Members did not object to the measure there. They have to resolve that between themselves, but our view—the Mr Browne: I received a note because I said to bottom-line view, which is the same as when the matter Parliament that the provision applied to NCA employees first came up; nothing changed in Committee or with operational powers, and Labour MPs who have elsewhere—is that the provisions on the NCA should be hitherto been entirely happy to endorse the Government’s there to protect the public around the clock from a position suddenly changed their mind. That gave me threat that they face around the clock. cause for concern that I may inadvertently have made a 363 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 364 mistake when I said that the provision applied to NCA George, Andrew Main, Mrs Anne officers with any operational powers, so I sought clarification Gibb, Mr Nick May, rh Mrs Theresa from officials that I had been right all along and that Glen, John Maynard, Paul Labour had been happy to endorse that position, and Goldsmith, Zac McCartney, Jason they reassured me that I had been right and Labour had Goodwill, Mr Robert McCartney, Karl been happy to endorse that position. Gove, rh Michael McCrea, Dr William Graham, Richard McIntosh, Miss Anne I commend the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington Grant, Mrs Helen McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick on the power that he wields within the Labour party. Gray, Mr James McPartland, Stephen Labour had been entirely happy to endorse the Grayling, rh Chris McVey, Esther Government’s position, which is that we believe that Green, rh Damian Menzies, Mark people who are potentially victims of serious and organised Greening, rh Justine Mercer, Patrick crime should not have the National Crime Agency Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Metcalfe, Stephen unavailable to protect them from that serious and organised Griffiths, Andrew Miller, rh Maria crime. Labour now takes a different position so, as I say, Gyimah, Mr Sam Mills, Nigel when there is a Division on the matter, we will have to Hames, Duncan Milton, Anne see which vision of public protection commands the Hammond, Stephen Morgan, Nicky Hands, Greg Morris, Anne Marie support of the House. With respect to all the other new Harper, Mr Mark Morris, David clauses and amendments in this group, I hope the Harrington, Richard Morris, James House will see fit to support those of the Government Harris, Rebecca Mosley, Stephen and reject those tabled by other Members. Hart, Simon Mowat, David Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Harvey, Sir Nick Mulholland, Greg Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mundell, rh David The House divided: Ayes 283, Noes 232. Hayes, Mr John Munt, Tessa Division No. 186] [3.52 pm Heald, Oliver Murray, Sheryll Heaton-Harris, Chris Murrison, Dr Andrew AYES Hemming, John Neill, Robert Henderson, Gordon Newton, Sarah Adams, Nigel Clappison, Mr James Hendry, Charles Nokes, Caroline Afriyie, Adam Clark, rh Greg Herbert, rh Nick Norman, Jesse Aldous, Peter Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hermon, Lady Nuttall, Mr David Amess, Mr David Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hinds, Damian O’Brien, Mr Stephen Bacon, Mr Richard Collins, Damian Hoban, Mr Mark Offord, Dr Matthew Baker, Steve Colvile, Oliver Hollingbery, George Ollerenshaw, Eric Baldwin, Harriett Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hollobone, Mr Philip Opperman, Guy Barclay, Stephen Crockart, Mike Holloway, Mr Adam Ottaway, Richard Barker, rh Gregory Crouch, Tracey Hopkins, Kris Paisley, Ian Baron, Mr John Davey, rh Mr Edward Horwood, Martin Parish, Neil Barwell, Gavin Davies, Glyn Howarth, Sir Gerald Patel, Priti Bebb, Guto Davis, rh Mr David Howell, John Paterson, rh Mr Owen Beith, rh Sir Alan de Bois, Nick Hughes, rh Simon Pawsey, Mark Bellingham, Mr Henry Dinenage, Caroline Jackson, Mr Stewart Percy, Andrew Benyon, Richard Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Javid, Sajid Perry, Claire Beresford, Sir Paul Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Jenkin, Mr Bernard Phillips, Stephen Berry, Jake Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Johnson, Gareth Pincher, Christopher Bingham, Andrew Dorries, Nadine Johnson, Joseph Poulter, Dr Daniel Birtwistle, Gordon Doyle-Price, Jackie Jones, Andrew Prisk, Mr Mark Boles, Nick Duddridge, James Jones, Mr Marcus Pritchard, Mark Bone, Mr Peter Dunne, Mr Philip Kirby, Simon Pugh, John Bottomley, Sir Peter Ellis, Michael Knight, rh Mr Greg Randall, rh Mr John Brady, Mr Graham Ellison, Jane Laing, Mrs Eleanor Reckless, Mark Brake, rh Tom Ellwood, Mr Tobias Lamb, Norman Rees-Mogg, Jacob Bray, Angie Elphicke, Charlie Lancaster, Mark Reevell, Simon Brine, Steve Eustice, George Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reid, Mr Alan Brokenshire, James Evans, Graham Latham, Pauline Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Brooke, Annette Evans, Jonathan Laws, rh Mr David Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Browne, Mr Jeremy Evennett, Mr David Leadsom, Andrea Robertson, rh Hugh Bruce, Fiona Fabricant, Michael Lee, Jessica Rogerson, Dan Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Fallon, rh Michael Leech, Mr John Rudd, Amber Buckland, Mr Robert Farron, Tim Lefroy, Jeremy Rutley, David Burns, Conor Featherstone, Lynne Leigh, Mr Edward Sanders, Mr Adrian Burrowes, Mr David Field, Mark Leslie, Charlotte Sandys, Laura Burt, Lorely Foster, rh Mr Don Lewis, Brandon Scott, Mr Lee Byles, Dan Fox,rhDrLiam Cairns, Alun Francois, rh Mr Mark Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Selous, Andrew Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Freeman, George Lilley, rh Mr Peter Shannon, Jim Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Freer, Mike Lloyd, Stephen Shapps, rh Grant Carmichael, Neil Fullbrook, Lorraine Lopresti, Jack Shepherd, Sir Richard Carswell, Mr Douglas Fuller, Richard Lord, Jonathan Simpson, David Cash, Mr William Garnier, Sir Edward Loughton, Tim Simpson, Mr Keith Chishti, Rehman Garnier, Mark Luff, Peter Skidmore, Chris Chope, Mr Christopher Gauke, Mr David Macleod, Mary Smith, Henry 365 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 366

Smith, Julian Vickers, Martin Gapes, Mike McKenzie, Mr Iain Smith, Sir Robert Walker, Mr Charles Gardiner, Barry McKinnell, Catherine Soubry, Anna Walker, Mr Robin Gilmore, Sheila Meacher, rh Mr Michael Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Wallace, Mr Ben Glindon, Mrs Mary Mearns, Ian Spencer, Mr Mark Ward, Mr David Godsiff, Mr Roger Miller, Andrew Stanley, rh Sir John Watkinson, Dame Angela Goggins, rh Paul Mitchell, Austin Stephenson, Andrew Weatherley, Mike Greatrex, Tom Morden, Jessica Stevenson, John Webb, Steve Green, Kate Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Stewart, Iain Wharton, James Greenwood, Lilian Mudie, Mr George Streeter, Mr Gary Wheeler, Heather Griffith, Nia Munn, Meg Stride, Mel White, Chris Gwynne, Andrew Murphy, rh Paul Stunell, rh Andrew Whittaker, Craig Hain, rh Mr Peter Murray, Ian Sturdy, Julian Whittingdale, Mr John Hamilton, Mr David Nandy, Lisa Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Wiggin, Bill Hamilton, Fabian Nash, Pamela Swinson, Jo Willetts, rh Mr David Hanson, rh Mr David O’Donnell, Fiona Swire, rh Mr Hugo Williams, Mr Mark Harris, Mr Tom Onwurah, Chi Syms, Mr Robert Williams, Roger Havard, Mr Dai Owen, Albert Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Williams, Stephen Healey, rh John Pearce, Teresa Teather, Sarah Williamson, Gavin Hendrick, Mark Perkins, Toby Thornton, Mike Wilson, Mr Rob Hillier, Meg Phillipson, Bridget Timpson, Mr Edward Wilson, Sammy Hodge, rh Margaret Pound, Stephen Tomlinson, Justin Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Powell, Lucy Truss, Elizabeth Wright, Jeremy Hoey, Kate Qureshi, Yasmin Turner, Mr Andrew Wright, Simon Hood, Mr Jim Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Tyrie, Mr Andrew Tellers for the Ayes: Hopkins, Kelvin Reed, Mr Jamie Uppal, Paul Mark Hunter and Hosie, Stewart Reed, Steve Vara, Mr Shailesh Karen Bradley Howarth, rh Mr George Reynolds, Emma Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Jonathan Irranca-Davies, Huw Riordan, Mrs Linda NOES Jackson, Glenda Ritchie, Ms Margaret Abbott, Ms Diane Cooper, Rosie James, Mrs Siân C. Robertson, Angus Abrahams, Debbie Cooper, rh Yvette Jamieson, Cathy Robertson, John Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Corbyn, Jeremy Jarvis, Dan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Alexander, Heidi Crausby, Mr David Johnson, rh Alan Rotheram, Steve Ali, Rushanara Creagh, Mary Johnson, Diana Roy, Mr Frank Allen, Mr Graham Creasy, Stella Jones, Graham Roy, Lindsay Ashworth, Jonathan Cruddas, Jon Jones, Helen Ruane, Chris Austin, Ian Cryer, John Jones, Susan Elan Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Bain, Mr William Cunningham, Alex Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Sarwar, Anas Balls, rh Ed Cunningham, Mr Jim Joyce, Eric Sawford, Andy Banks, Gordon Cunningham, Sir Tony Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Seabeck, Alison Barron, rh Mr Kevin Curran, Margaret Keeley, Barbara Sharma, Mr Virendra Bayley, Hugh Dakin, Nic Khan, rh Sadiq Sheerman, Mr Barry Beckett, rh Margaret Danczuk, Simon Lammy, rh Mr David Sheridan, Jim Begg, Dame Anne Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lazarowicz, Mark Shuker, Gavin Benn, rh Hilary David, Wayne Leslie, Chris Skinner, Mr Dennis Benton, Mr Joe Davidson, Mr Ian Lewis, Mr Ivan Slaughter, Mr Andy Berger, Luciana Davies, Geraint Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Smith, rh Mr Andrew Blackman-Woods, Roberta De Piero, Gloria Long, Naomi Smith, Angela Blenkinsop, Tom Denham, rh Mr John Love, Mr Andrew Smith, Nick Blomfield, Paul Dobson, rh Frank Lucas, Caroline Smith, Owen Blunkett, rh Mr David Doran, Mr Frank Lucas, Ian Straw, rh Mr Jack Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Doughty, Stephen MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Stringer, Graham Brennan, Kevin Dowd, Jim Mactaggart, Fiona Tami, Mark Brown, Lyn Dromey, Jack Mahmood, Mr Khalid Thomas, Mr Gareth Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Durkan, Mark Mahmood, Shabana Thornberry, Emily Brown, Mr Russell Eagle, Ms Angela Malhotra, Seema Timms, rh Stephen Bryant, Chris Edwards, Jonathan Mann, John Trickett, Jon Buck, Ms Karen Elliott, Julie Marsden, Mr Gordon Twigg, Derek Burden, Richard Ellman, Mrs Louise McCabe, Steve Twigg, Stephen Burnham, rh Andy Engel, Natascha McCann, Mr Michael Umunna, Mr Chuka Byrne, rh Mr Liam Esterson, Bill McCarthy, Kerry Vaz, Valerie Campbell, Mr Alan Evans, Chris McClymont, Gregg Walley, Joan Campbell, Mr Ronnie Farrelly, Paul McDonagh, Siobhain Watts, Mr Dave Champion, Sarah Field, rh Mr Frank McDonald, Andy Weir, Mr Mike Chapman, Jenny Fitzpatrick, Jim McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Clark, Katy Flello, Robert McDonnell, John Whitehead, Dr Alan Clarke, rh Mr Tom Flint, rh Caroline McFadden, rh Mr Pat Williams, Hywel Clwyd, rh Ann Flynn, Paul McGovern, Alison Williamson, Chris Coaker, Vernon Fovargue, Yvonne McGovern, Jim Wilson, Phil Coffey, Ann Francis, Dr Hywel McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Winnick, Mr David Connarty, Michael Galloway, George McKechin, Ann Winterton, rh Ms Rosie 367 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 368

Wishart, Pete Tellers for the Noes: (b) provision amending, repealing, revoking or otherwise Woodcock, John Julie Hilling and modifying any enactment (including an enactment Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Karl Turner contained in, or amended by, this Act). Wright, David (2) The making of an order under any provision of this Schedule does not prevent— Question accordingly agreed to. (a) a further order from being made under that provision, New clause 3 read a Second time, and added to the Bill. or (b) an order from being made under any other provision of this Schedule. New Schedule 1 (3) An order under paragraph 2 or 3 may modify or reverse the THE NCA: NORTHERN IRELAND effects of an order made under paragraph 4. Provisions that do not extend to Northern Ireland (4) Sub-paragraphs (1) to (3) do not limit the powers conferred by paragraphs 2, 3, 4 and 5. 1 (1) The relevant NCA provisions do not extend to Northern Ireland. (5) In this paragraph “function” includes— (2) The Secretary of State may, by order, provide that any (a) an NCA function, and other provision of Part 1 of this Act is not to extend to Northern (b) a function of the Secretary of State. Ireland. Interpretation (3) This paragraph is subject to paragraph 2. 8 Expressions used in this Schedule and in Part 1 of this Act have Power to provide for provisions to extend to Northern Ireland the same meanings in this Schedule as in that Part. 2 The Secretary of State may, by order, provide for any of the 9 For the purposes of this Schedule, each of the provisions of this following to extend to Northern Ireland— Act specified in the following table (including any amendment, (a) any relevant NCA provision; repeal or revocation made by such a provision) is a “relevant NCA provision”. (b) any provision in respect of which an order has been made under paragraph 1(2). The relevant NCA provisions Provisions extended to Northern Ireland: consequential provision Section 2 —subsection (2)(a) so far as it requires consultation 3 The Secretary of State may, by order, make such provision as with the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland the Secretary of State considers appropriate in consequence of, or Section 3 —subsection (6)(a) so far as it requires consultation in connection with, a provision of this Act extending to Northern with the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland Ireland by virtue of an order under paragraph 2. —subsection (7)(b) Provisions not extending to Northern Ireland: consequential —subsection (8)(c) provision Section 10 —subsection (8) 4 The Secretary of State may, by order, make such provision as Schedule 1 —paragraph 7(1)(b) the Secretary of State considers appropriate in consequence of, or —paragraph 8(3)(b) in connection with, a provision of this Act not extending to Schedule 2 —paragraph 5(b) Northern Ireland by virtue of— —paragraph 6(2)(b)(ii), (4) and (5) (a) paragraph 1(1), or —paragraph 8(4) and (5) (b) an order under paragraph 1(2). Schedule 3 —paragraph 1(2) so far as it imposes a duty on: (a) a member of the Police Service of Northern NCA functions in Northern Ireland Ireland, or 5 The Secretary of State may, by order, make such provision as (b) a person operating in Northern Ireland who the Secretary of State considers appropriate for modifying the falls within paragraph 1(3)(f) ways in which— —paragraph 3 so far as it relates to the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland (a) NCA functions are exercised in Northern Ireland, or —paragraph 14 (b) the exercise of NCA functions in Northern Ireland is —paragraph 15 planned or supervised. —paragraph 25 Consent of Northern Ireland Assembly to transferred provision —paragraph 26(3)(b) Schedule 5 —paragraph 11(1)(c) 6 (1) The Secretary of State may not make an order under this —paragraph 11(6) to (8) Schedule which makes transferred provision unless the Northern —in paragraph 11(9), the definitions of “Northern Ireland Assembly consents to the making of that provision. Ireland general authorisation”and “Northern Ireland (2) In this paragraph “transferred provision” means provision operational authorisation” which, if it were contained in an Act of the Northern Ireland —paragraph 13 Assembly— —in paragraph 30, the definition of “powers and (a) would be within the legislative competence of the privileges of a Northern Ireland constable” Assembly, and Schedule 6 —paragraph 19 (b) would deal with a transferred matter without being Schedule 8 —the provisions of Part 2 and Part 3 so far as they ancillary to other provision (whether in the Act or relate to transferred matters previously enacted) which deals with an excepted matter or reserved matter. 10 In this Schedule— Orders under this Schedule: particular provision “ancillary” has the meaning given in section 6(3) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998; 7 (1) The provision that may be made by an order under paragraph 2, 3, 4 or 5 (whether by virtue of that paragraph or “excepted matter”, “reserved matter”and “transferred matter” section 43(12)) includes— have the meanings given by section 4(1) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998.’.—(Mr Jeremy Browne.) (a) provision conferring, removing or otherwise modifying a function (whether or not exercisable in, or in Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added relation to, Northern Ireland); to the Bill. 369 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 370

Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): On a point (f) provide for section 316(8B) of that Act to have effect in of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. You will recall that relation to an enforcement authority in relation to Wellingborough prison was closed without any notification Northern Ireland. to me, and that I learned about it through the media. I Relevant civil recovery provision not extending to Northern Ireland have just been contacted by my local press and learned 5 The Secretary of State may, by order, make such provision as that Wellingborough prison has been sold. I have received the Secretary of State considers appropriate in consequence of, no notification whatever from the Ministry of Justice, or in connection with, a relevant civil recovery provision not and there is no written statement in the Library. Can extending to Northern Ireland. you advise me of how I might get some more information Consent of Northern Ireland Assembly to transferred provision about what seems a very unfortunate situation? 6 (1) The Secretary of State may not make an order under this Part of this Schedule which makes transferred provision unless Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): What I can the Northern Ireland Assembly consents to the making of that tell the hon. Gentleman is that the Chair has not been provision. advised of such a sale, but his point is now on the (2) In this paragraph “transferred provision” means provision record, and I am sure that since he has raised it, the which, if it were contained in an Act of the Northern Ireland Prisons Minister will get in touch with him to say Assembly— whether it has been sold. I look to the Government (a) would be within the legislative competence of the Front Bench as I say that I presume that has been taken Assembly, and on board. (b) would deal with a transferred matter without being New Schedule 2 ancillary to other provision (whether in the Act or previously enacted) which deals with an excepted or PROCEEDS OF CRIME PROVISIONS:NORTHERN IRELAND reserved matter. (3) In sub-paragraph (2)— PART 1 “ancillary” has the meaning given in section 6(3) of the CIVIL RECOVERY PROVISIONS Northern Ireland Act 1998; Meaning of “relevant civil recovery provision” “excepted matter”, “reserved matter” and “transferred 1 For the purposes of this Part of this Schedule, each of the matter” have the meanings given by section 4(1) of following is a “relevant civil recovery provision”— the Northern Ireland Act 1998. (a) section 33(2), (3), (5) and (6); Orders under this Part of this Schedule: particular provision (b) section 33(7) so far as it relates to amendments made 7 (1) The provision that may be made by an order under by section 33(2), (3) and (5) and Part 2 of paragraph 3, 4 or 5 (whether by virtue of that paragraph or Schedule 17; section 43(12)) includes— (c) each provision in Schedule 17; (a) provision conferring, removing or otherwise modifying (d) each amendment or repeal made by the provisions a function (whether or not exercisable in, or in relation mentioned in paragraphs (a) and (c). to, Northern Ireland); Relevant civil recovery provisions not to extend to Northern Ireland (b) provision amending, repealing, revoking or otherwise unless order made modifying any enactment (including an enactment 2 (1) The relevant civil recovery provisions do not extend to contained in, or amended by, this Act). Northern Ireland. (2) Such an order may provide for provision amending, (2) But that is subject to paragraph 3. repealing or otherwise modifying Chapter 2 or 4 of Part 5 of the Power to provide for relevant civil recovery provisions to extend to Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 to have retrospective effect. Northern Ireland (3) The making of an order under any provision of this Part of 3 The Secretary of State may, by order, provide for one or more this Schedule does not prevent— of the relevant civil recovery provisions to extend to Northern (a) a further order from being made under that provision, Ireland. or Relevant civil recovery provision extending to Northern Ireland (b) an order from being made under any other provision of 4 (1) The Secretary of State may, by order, make such this Part of this Schedule. provision as the Secretary of State considers appropriate in (4) An order under paragraph 3 or 4 may modify or reverse the consequence of, or in connection with, a relevant civil recovery effects of an order made under paragraph 5. provision extending to Northern Ireland. (5) Sub-paragraphs (1) to (4) do not limit the powers conferred (2) An order under this paragraph may, in particular— by paragraphs 3, 4 and 5. (a) provide for section 282A of the Proceeds of Crime (6) In this paragraph— Act 2002 to have effect in relation to orders made by the High Court in Northern Ireland; “enactment” means any enactment, whenever passed or made, contained in— (b) provide for an enforcement authority in relation to Northern Ireland to make requests for assistance (a) an Act of Parliament; under section 282B of that Act; (b) an Act of the Scottish Parliament; (c) provide for a receiver appointed under an order made (c) Northern Ireland legislation; by the High Court in Northern Ireland to make requests (d) a Measure or Act of the National Assembly for for assistance under section 282C of that Act; Wales; (d) provide for the High Court in Northern Ireland or a receiver appointed by an order made by that court to (e) an instrument made under any such Act, make requests for assistance under section 282D of legislation or Measure; that Act; (f) any other subordinate legislation (within the (e) provide for an enforcement authority or trustee for civil meaning of the Interpretation Act 1978); recovery to make a request for assistance under “function” means a function of any description, section 282F of that Act where a recovery order has including a power or duty (whether conferred by been made by the High Court in Northern Ireland; an enactment or arising otherwise). 371 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 372

PART 2 (3) An order under paragraph 10 or 11 may modify or reverse the effects of an order made under paragraph 12. INVESTIGATION PROVISIONS (4) Sub-paragraphs (1) to (3) do not limit the powers conferred by paragraphs 10, 11 and 12. Meaning of “relevant investigation provision” (5) In this paragraph— 8 For the purposes of this Part of this Schedule, each of the following is a “relevant investigation provision”— “enactment” means any enactment, whenever passed or made, contained in— (a) each provision in paragraphs 2 to 13, 25 to 27, 29 and (a) an Act of Parliament; 30 of Schedule 18 (including each amendment or repeal made by those provisions), and (b) an Act of the Scottish Parliament; (c) Northern Ireland legislation; (b) section 34 so far as it relates to each of those provisions. (d) a Measure or Act of the National Assembly for Wales; Relevant investigation provisions not to extend to Northern Ireland (e) an instrument made under any such Act, unless order made legislation or Measure; 9 (1) The relevant investigation provisions do not extend to (f) any other subordinate legislation (within the Northern Ireland. meaning of the Interpretation Act 1978); (2) But that is subject to paragraph 10. “function”means a function of any description, including Power to provide for relevant investigation provisions to extend to a power or duty (whether conferred by an enactment Northern Ireland or arising otherwise).’.—(Mr Jeremy Browne.) 10 The Secretary of State may, by order, provide for one or more Brought up, and read the First time. of the relevant investigation provisions to extend to Northern Ireland. Mr Jeremy Browne: I beg to move, That the schedule Relevant investigation provision extending to Northern Ireland be read a Second time. 11 The Secretary of State may, by order, make such provision as the Secretary of State considers appropriate in consequence of, or Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss in connection with, a relevant investigation provision extending Government amendments 61 to 71, 75, 86 and 88. to Northern Ireland. Relevant investigation provision not extending to Northern Ireland Mr Browne: I do not propose to detain the House 12 The Secretary of State may, by order, make such provision as long on the new schedule and amendments. In essence, the Secretary of State considers appropriate in consequence of, they deal with the consequences of the failure to agree a or in connection with, a relevant investigation provision not legislative consent motion in Northern Ireland for the extending to Northern Ireland. proceeds of crime provisions in the Bill, just as similar Consent of Northern Ireland Assembly to transferred provision amendments in the previous group dealt with the 13 (1) The Secretary of State may not make an order under this consequences of not securing an LCM for the NCA Part of this Schedule which makes transferred provision unless provisions. As I have already explained the context of the Northern Ireland Assembly consents to the making of that the amendments and it has been given an extensive provision. airing, I do not propose to cover the same ground (2) In this paragraph “transferred provision” means provision again. which, if it were contained in an Act of the Northern Ireland The amendments made to the Proceeds of Crime Assembly— Act 2002 in Committee to remedy the effects of the (a) would be within the legislative competence of the Perry judgment will operate UK-wide, but as with Assembly, and the NCA provisions, which we have just discussed, in (b) would deal with a transferred matter without being the absence of an LCM it is necessary that we amend ancillary to other provision (whether in the Act or those provisions so that they do not extend to Northern previously enacted) which deals with an excepted matter or a reserved matter. Ireland. In new schedule 2, a similar approach is adopted in respect of the proceeds of crime provisions to that (3) In sub-paragraph (2)— taken in new schedule 1 in respect of the NCA. It “ancillary” has the meaning given in section 6(3) of the provides that “relevant civil recovery provisions” and Northern Ireland Act 1998; “relevant investigation provisions” do not extend to “excepted matter”, “reserved matter” and “transferred Northern Ireland. matter” have the meanings given by section 4(1) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. The primary outcome of the new schedule and the Orders under this Part of this Schedule: particular provision associated amendments to clause 33 and schedule 17 is that the High Court of England and Wales will be able 14 (1) The provision that may be made by an order under paragraph 10, 11 or 12 (whether by virtue of that paragraph or to make a civil recovery order against property located section 43(12)) includes— outside the UK where there is, or has been, a connection (a) provision conferring, removing or otherwise modifying between the case in question and the relevant part of a function (whether or not exercisable in, or in the UK, and the Court of Session will have similar relation to, Northern Ireland); powers in Scotland, but the High Court of Northern (b) provision amending, repealing, revoking or otherwise Ireland will not be able to make such an order. If the modifying any enactment (including an enactment unlawful conduct occurred in Northern Ireland but contained in, or amended by, this Act). the property was located outside Northern Ireland, the (2) The making of an order under any provision of this Part of High Court of Northern Ireland would have no power this Schedule does not prevent— to make an order over that property. (a) a further order from being made under that provision, Like new schedule 1, however, which we considered or in the last group of amendments, new schedule 2 contains (b) an order from being made under any other provision of a number of order-making powers that will enable the this Part of this Schedule. Secretary of State to extend certain civil recovery and 373 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 374

[Mr Jeremy Browne] agreeing to provisions on asset recovery. This is not a hypothetical issue. On 6 March a British newspaper investigation provisions to Northern Ireland at a later stated: date. In respect of matters falling within the legislative “Briton hunted as police crack IRA and Mafia fraud scheme…A competence of the Northern Ireland Assembly, the British man…is being sought by detectives investigating the £390m Secretary of State must secure the Assembly’s consent fraud which was based around a development on the…coast before doing so. As I have indicated, we will continue to of…Southern Italy.” work with the Northern Ireland Minister of Justice to Italian authorities arrested people in dawn raids and a secure all-party agreement to the full application of the warrant has been issued for the arrest of an individual Bill’s proceeds of crime provisions to Northern Ireland, from Belfast whom I shall not name. If that individual but for now we must ensure that the Bill respects the is convicted of fraud in Italy, his Italian assets cannot Sewel convention. be confiscated because he is resident in Belfast. If he was resident in our constituencies of Delyn, Darlington, Mr Hanson: I say again to the Minister that this is a Walthamstow, Taunton or Middlesbrough, however, he really difficult issue for Northern Ireland. It is a big hole could be taken to court and his assets taken from him. in the Bill. He has just said that because we do not have There is a massive incentive for criminals to relocate agreement with the Northern Ireland Assembly, from to Northern Ireland, and for those operating criminal Royal Assent Northern Ireland will not have asset recovery activities across the border between Northern Ireland powers, because of judgments that have been made in and the Republic of Ireland to continue doing so. I relation to the UK as a whole. Because Northern Ireland’s know there are issues in some political parties about the jurisdiction has not agreed to the provisions in the Bill, provisions and the legislative consent motion, but I we will face difficulties. appeal to the Northern Ireland Executive to consider the matter again because it is undermining action against Sammy Wilson: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for criminal activity in Northern Ireland. giving way. It is a great pity that the Minister would not In the few minutes remaining I would welcome the give way on this point earlier. Minister outlining a clear road map and stating how he Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that crime intends to resolve this problem. It is not simply about barons in Northern Ireland who are reaping hundreds bringing an order forward in the future, but about how of millions of pounds a year will now be able to invest we can reach an agreement where such an order can be those proceeds across the border in the Irish Republic effected to close this appalling loophole. with impunity and without any danger of those assets being seized? I know that that is a matter for the Mr Jeremy Browne: In a way, points or lines of Northern Ireland Assembly, but it will create a serious difference are being drawn between the two Front Benches hole in the pursuit of such criminals and will cause that do not exist. The right hon. Gentleman described great difficulty in recovering assets from them. the situation correctly because the status of a criminal from Taunton—that was his example—would be different Mr Hanson: It does indeed; it creates a tremendous from that of a criminal from Belfast when it came to the hole in asset recovery provisions. In effect it means—the seizure of assets. The Government of the United Kingdom Minister has accepted this—that a criminal in Taunton do not want that to be the case and wish the arrangements could buy a property in the Republic of Ireland and to apply universally across the United Kingdom. That have those assets confiscated by the High Court, but a is partly because measures to rectify the offence of criminal in Belfast, for example, with a property in the illegally acquired assets and address that wrong should Republic of Ireland, could not. There is also a perverse apply regardless of where in the United Kingdom it incentive for people to move to Northern Ireland to took place, but also because, as the right hon. Gentleman pursue their criminal activities. At the moment, unless said, this situation creates an extremely worrying incentive an order is introduced urgently, the provision will not for people wishing to perpetrate organised crime and allow assets abroad to be confiscated from those in the acquire financial assets to base themselves in Northern north of Ireland. Ireland. That is an extremely worrying development, I would have thought, for any Member who represents a Northern Ireland constituency, but it is also a concern 4.15 pm for the United Kingdom Government as a whole, because Ian Paisley: I am sure the shadow Minister will we do not want such perverse and malign incentives to agree that the situation gives gangsters and criminals result from decisions made by politicians. in Northern Ireland who are involved in serious and organised crime a free rein in part of the United Paul Goggins rose— Kingdom, and that must be addressed. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that this is a test and that people Ian Paisley rose— want to see the rule of law operating against people such as Mr Murphy and Mr Hughes in South Armagh, Mr Browne: One second. just as it does against serious and organised criminals in Our position is clear. In a way, this is a strange Manchester, Birmingham and other parts of the United debate, in that I am explaining the reality as it stands, Kingdom? but it is not the reality as I would like it to be. The British Government would like to NCA to apply in Mr Hanson: This is an extremely serious issue, and I Northern Ireland in the way I have been describing want the Minister to say not just that there is a problem—he throughout this afternoon. At the same time, we cannot has done that—but what the solution is in relation to have a system of devolution that applies only when the getting parties around the table to discuss the Executive United Kingdom Government approve of the decisions 375 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 376 made by the politicians in the devolved Executive and Clause 2 legislature. For devolution to mean anything, where the politicians in the devolved Executive and legislature—in STRATEGIC PRIORITIES this case in Northern Ireland—are not willing to endorse Amendment made: 4, page 2, line 42, leave out ‘may’ the preferred option of the United Kingdom Government, and insert ‘must’.—(Mr Jeremy Browne.) there obviously has to be a sense of discretion among those politicians. I want the politicians in Northern Clause 12 Ireland to arrive at the outcome that the United Kingdom Government seek, because I think it would be in the NCA OFFICERS WITH OPERATIONAL POWERS: LABOUR interests of the people in Northern Ireland. RELATIONS Amendment proposed: 95, page 10, line 15, leave out Ian Paisley: That analysis might come back to bite Clause 12.—(John McDonnell.) the Minister under another set of circumstances. All I Question put, That the amendment be made. would say is that the First Minister of Northern Ireland said in evidence to a Select Committee in this House The House divided: Ayes 19, Noes 288. that, because of the disagreement, this sovereign Parliament Division No. 187] [4.24 pm should rule on it. That is the test for the Minister. Rule on it! He should make the sovereign decision if there AYES has been no agreement. Let us remember that the Cryer, John Ritchie, Ms Margaret majority of the Assembly has voted in favour of this Durkan, Mark Robertson, Angus proposal and the majority of the Executive is for it, but Edwards, Jonathan Skinner, Mr Dennis it is being held to ransom by a tiny, tiny minority. Havard, Mr Dai Weir, Mr Mike Hoey, Kate Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Mr Browne: The point I am making is that the Hopkins, Kelvin Williams, Hywel proposal is not being held to ransom by the UK Hosie, Stewart Winnick, Mr David Government. I agree with the hon. Gentleman; indeed, Lucas, Caroline Wishart, Pete if I may say so, the tone of his intervention would MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Tellers for the Ayes: rather imply to anybody who had not followed our McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Mr Elfyn Llwyd and deliberations carefully that he and I are on different McDonnell, John Jeremy Corbyn sides of the argument. I agree with what he has said: I want people in Northern Ireland to have just as much NOES protection under the NCA as people in my constituency Adams, Nigel Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair of Taunton Deane, but I also recognise that the Afriyie, Adam Carmichael, Neil constitutional settlement in Northern Ireland is different Aldous, Peter Carswell, Mr Douglas from that in Somerset. Therefore, different considerations Amess, Mr David Cash, Mr William apply. Bacon, Mr Richard Chishti, Rehman Baker, Steve Chope, Mr Christopher Sammy Wilson: Does the Minister not accept, however, Baldwin, Harriett Clappison, Mr James that on this issue there is a big difference? The inability Barclay, Stephen Clark, rh Greg to seize assets that criminals who operate from Northern Barker, rh Gregory Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Ireland might have outside Northern Ireland is a UK-wide Baron, Mr John Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey problem, in so far as criminals currently involved in Barwell, Gavin Coffey, Dr Thérèse activities here in Great Britain could relocate to Northern Bebb, Guto Collins, Damian Ireland and thereby escape losing their ill-gotten gains. Beith, rh Sir Alan Colvile, Oliver Bellingham, Mr Henry Cox, Mr Geoffrey From that point of view, this is not simply a Northern Benyon, Richard Crockart, Mike Ireland issue or an issue for the Government of Northern Beresford, Sir Paul Crouch, Tracey Ireland; rather, it becomes an issue for the Government Berry, Jake Davey, rh Mr Edward of the United Kingdom. At least on this issue, he could Bingham, Andrew Davies, Glyn override the views in Northern Ireland. Birtwistle, Gordon Davis, rh Mr David Boles, Nick de Bois, Nick Mr Browne rose— Bone, Mr Peter Dinenage, Caroline Bottomley, Sir Peter Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Bradley, Karen Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Brady, Mr Graham Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen 4.23 pm Brake, rh Tom Dorries, Nadine Three and a half hours having elapsed since the Bray, Angie Doyle-Price, Jackie commencement of proceedings on the programme motion, Brine, Steve Drax, Richard Brokenshire, James Duddridge, James the debate was interrupted (Programme Order, this day). Brooke, Annette Duncan, rh Mr Alan The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already Browne, Mr Jeremy Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain proposed form the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), Bruce, Fiona Dunne, Mr Philip That the schedule be read a Second time. Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Ellis, Michael Question agreed to. Buckland, Mr Robert Ellison, Jane Burns, Conor Ellwood, Mr Tobias New schedule 2 accordingly read a Second time, and Burrowes, Mr David Elphicke, Charlie added to the Bill. Burt, Lorely Eustice, George The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Questions Byles, Dan Evans, Graham necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded Cairns, Alun Evans, Jonathan at that time (Standing Order No. 83E). Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Evennett, Mr David 377 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 378

Fabricant, Michael Lee, Jessica Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Thornton, Mike Fallon, rh Michael Leech, Mr John Robertson, rh Hugh Timpson, Mr Edward Farron, Tim Lefroy, Jeremy Rogerson, Dan Tomlinson, Justin Featherstone, Lynne Leigh, Mr Edward Rosindell, Andrew Turner, Mr Andrew Field, Mark Leslie, Charlotte Rudd, Amber Tyrie, Mr Andrew Foster, rh Mr Don Lewis, Brandon Rutley, David Uppal, Paul Fox,rhDrLiam Lewis, Dr Julian Sanders, Mr Adrian Vara, Mr Shailesh Francois, rh Mr Mark Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sandys, Laura Vickers, Martin Freeman, George Lilley, rh Mr Peter Scott, Mr Lee Walker, Mr Charles Freer, Mike Lloyd, Stephen Selous, Andrew Walker, Mr Robin Fullbrook, Lorraine Long, Naomi Shannon, Jim Wallace, Mr Ben Fuller, Richard Lopresti, Jack Shapps, rh Grant Ward, Mr David Gale, Sir Roger Lord, Jonathan Shepherd, Sir Richard Watkinson, Dame Angela Garnier, Sir Edward Loughton, Tim Simpson, Mr Keith Weatherley, Mike Garnier, Mark Luff, Peter Skidmore, Chris Webb, Steve Gauke, Mr David Macleod, Mary Smith, Miss Chloe Wharton, James George, Andrew Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Henry Wheeler, Heather Gibb, Mr Nick Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Julian White, Chris Glen, John May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Sir Robert Whittaker, Craig Goodwill, Mr Robert Maynard, Paul Soubry, Anna Whittingdale, Mr John Graham, Richard McCartney, Jason Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Wiggin, Bill Grant, Mrs Helen McCartney, Karl Spencer, Mr Mark Willetts, rh Mr David Gray, Mr James McIntosh, Miss Anne Stanley, rh Sir John Williams, Mr Mark Grayling, rh Chris McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stephenson, Andrew Williams, Roger Green, rh Damian McPartland, Stephen Stevenson, John Williams, Stephen Greening, rh Justine Menzies, Mark Stewart, Iain Williamson, Gavin Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Mercer, Patrick Streeter, Mr Gary Wilson, Mr Rob Griffiths, Andrew Metcalfe, Stephen Stride, Mel Wilson, Sammy Hames, Duncan Miller, rh Maria Stunell, rh Andrew Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hammond, Stephen Mills, Nigel Sturdy, Julian Wright, Jeremy Hancock, Matthew Milton, Anne Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Wright, Simon Hands, Greg Morgan, Nicky Swinson, Jo Harper, Mr Mark Morris, Anne Marie Swire, rh Mr Hugo Tellers for the Noes: Harrington, Richard Morris, David Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Mr Robert Syms and Harris, Rebecca Morris, James Teather, Sarah Mark Hunter Hart, Simon Mosley, Stephen Harvey, Sir Nick Mowat, David Question accordingly negatived. Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mulholland, Greg Hayes, Mr John Mundell, rh David Heald, Oliver Munt, Tessa Schedule 8 Heaton-Harris, Chris Murray, Sheryll Hemming, John Murrison, Dr Andrew ABOLITION OF SOCA AND NPIA Henderson, Gordon Neill, Robert Amendments made: 5, page 115, line 37, at end insert— Hendry, Charles Newton, Sarah Herbert, rh Nick Nokes, Caroline ‘( ) In section 195S (Codes of practice: Secretary of State), in Hermon, Lady Norman, Jesse subsection (1)(c), for “members of staff of SOCA” substitute Hinds, Damian Nuttall, Mr David “NCA officers”.’. Hoban, Mr Mark Offord, Dr Matthew Amendment 6, page 117, line 3, at end insert— Hollingbery, George Ollerenshaw, Eric ‘( ) In section 339ZA (disclosures to SOCA)— Hollobone, Mr Philip Opperman, Guy (a) in the title, for “” substitute “”; Holloway, Mr Adam Ottaway, Richard Hopkins, Kris Paisley, Ian (b) for “Director General of the Serious Organised Crime Horwood, Martin Parish, Neil Agency” substitute “Director General of the National Crime Agency”.’. Howarth, Sir Gerald Patel, Priti Howell, John Paterson, rh Mr Owen Amendment 7, page 118, line 38, at end insert— Hughes, rh Simon Pawsey, Mark ‘( ) In subsection (6)— Hurd, Mr Nick Percy, Andrew (a) for “a member of SOCA’s staff” substitute “an NCA Jackson, Mr Stewart Perry, Claire officer”; Javid, Sajid Phillips, Stephen Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pickles, rh Mr Eric (b) for “SOCA” substitute “the Director General of the Johnson, Gareth Pincher, Christopher NCA”.’. Johnson, Joseph Poulter, Dr Daniel Amendment 8, page 121, line 30, leave out ‘officer’ Jones, Andrew Prisk, Mr Mark and insert ‘agency’. Jones, Mr Marcus Pritchard, Mark Amendment 9, page 121, line 32, leave out from Kirby, Simon Pugh, John beginning to end of line 34 and insert— Knight, rh Mr Greg Raab, Mr Dominic (a) the National Crime Agency;”.’.—(Mr Syms.) Laing, Mrs Eleanor Randall, rh Mr John Lamb, Norman Redwood, rh Mr John Schedule 22 Lancaster, Mark Rees-Mogg, Jacob Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reevell, Simon SUPER-AFFIRMATIVE PROCEDURE Latham, Pauline Reid, Mr Alan Amendment made: 76, page 336, line 26, leave out ‘2’ Laws, rh Mr David Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm and insert ‘[Modification of NCA functions]’.—(Mr Syms.) 379 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 380

Clause 33 Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. CIVIL RECOVERY OF THE PROCEEDS ETC OF UNLAWFL CONDUCT Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this it Amendments made: 61, page 33, line 33, after ‘High will be convenient to discuss the following: Court’ insert ‘in England and Wales’. Amendment 120, in clause 41, page 45, line 44, in Amendment 62, page 34, line 2, after ‘High Court’ clause 41, at end insert— insert ‘in England and Wales’. ‘(3A) In section 3ZB of the 1988 Act (causing death by Amendment 63, page 34, line 14, leave out from driving: unlicensed, disqualified or uninsured drivers), after (c) beginning to ‘and’ in line 15. insert— Amendment 64, page 36, line 10, leave out “(d) section 5A of this Act (driving or being in charge of a ‘a part of the United Kingdom’ motor vehicle with concentration of specified controlled and insert drug above specified limit).”.’. ‘England and Wales or Scotland’.—(Mr Syms.) Amendment 2, page 46, line 31, in clause 41, at end add— Schedule 17 ‘(8) The Secretary of State shall have responsibility to ensure that within 12 months of Royal Assent an assessment has been PROCEEDS OF CRIME: CIVIL RECOVERY OF THE made by the Home Office on the impact of this section on PROCEEDS ETC OF UNLAWFUL CONDUCT equipment, training and resources with particular regard to published Amendments made: 65, page 290, line 5, after ‘authority’ impact assessments from the Home Office, Department for Transport, insert Department of Justice and the Crown Prosecution Service.’. ‘in relation to England and Wales or Scotland’. Amendment 89, page 46, line 34, in clause 42, at end Amendment 66, page 290, line 8, leave out ‘and insert— Northern Ireland’. ‘(1A) In section 4(1) (“Fear or provocation of violence”) for Amendment 67, page 290, line 29, after ‘order’ insert “abusive or insulting” in the two places where it occurs substitute ‘made by the High Court in England and Wales’. “or abusive”. Amendment 68, page 290, line 35, leave out ‘or’ and (1B) In section 4A(1) (“Intentional harassment, alarm or insert distress”) for “abusive or insulting” in the two places where it ‘made by the High Court in England and Wales or an’. occurs substitute “or abusive”.’. Amendment 69, page 291, line 8, leave out ‘or’ and Amendment 90, page 46, line 36, in clause 42, at end insert insert— ‘made by the High Court in England and Wales or an’. ‘(6) In section 6(3) (“mental element: miscellaneous”) for Amendment 70, page 291, line 17, after ‘High Court’ “abusive or insulting” in the two places where it occurs substitute insert ‘in England and Wales’. “or abusive”.’. Amendment 71, page 292, line 40, after ‘order’ insert Government amendment 84. ‘made by the High Court in England and Wales or the Court of Session’.—(Mr Syms.) Mr Burrowes: Both new clause 18 and amendment 120 concern sentences for driving over the prescribed limits Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Inowhave for drugs and alcohol and both seek to fill a gap in to announce the result of today’s deferred Divisions. In sentencing. There are 220 traffic cases each year in the deferred Division on the draft Conditional Fee which individuals die on our roads owing to a driver Agreements Order 2013, the Ayes were 288 and the who has been impaired through drink or drugs. Noes 225, so the Ayes have it. On the subject of filling gaps, I pay tribute to the In the deferred Division on the draft Non-Domestic Government for filling the gap in drug-driving offences. Rating (Levy and Safety Net) Regulations 2013, the The new offence will not require proof of impairment. Ayes were 286, the Noes 223, so the Ayes have it. Owing to the imminent arrival of roadside drugalysers, In the deferred Division on the draft Tax Credits it will become an offence that sits alongside drink-driving. Up-rating, etc. Regulations 2013, the Ayes were 286, the It will be possible to rely on proof that someone is over Noes 228, so the Ayes have it. the prescribed limit, whether for alcohol or drugs, rather In the deferred Division on the draft Renewable than relying solely on proof of impairment. Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2013, Here I must declare an interest as a criminal defence the Ayes were 289, the Noes were 224, so the Ayes solicitor. I must confess that I recall many prosecutions have it. that did not succeed because of ambiguities and [The Division lists are published at the end of today’s complexities relating to proof of impairment. The filling debates.] of that gap might not have been welcome to some of my clients of old, but it will be welcome to victims of New Clause 18 offences of this kind, and it will be welcome to those who believe that it is in the public interest to ensure that SANCTION FOR AND TRIAL IN RELATION TO DRINK drink and drug-driving offences are prosecuted properly. DRIVING However, I am also concerned about another gap. ‘Schedule 2 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 is amended such that the time period stipulated as punishment for The purpose of new clause 18 and amendment 120 is to an offence under section 5 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (driving draw attention to it, and to ensure that, in one way or or being in charge of a motor vehicle with alcohol concentration another, we fill it. Without the new clause, the maximum above prescribed limit) is two years and such that the said offence custodial sentence for driving after consuming excess shall be triable either way.’.—(Mr Burrowes.) alcohol, or indeed drugs over the prescribed limit, will Brought up, and read the First time. still be six months’ imprisonment. Statute has properly 381 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 382

[Mr Burrowes] We have already crossed the Rubicon in terms of culpability and consequences in death by careless driving provided that, if carelessness or dangerousness is proved, and dangerous driving. We have recognised that there greater penalties will follow. The last Conservative needs to be a particular way of dealing with penalties Government recognised the need to ensure that drivers that is aligned to the consequences, rather than looking who caused death while under the influence of drugs or at culpability alone. My amendments seek to take that a drink should be more heavily penalised. We now have stage further. on the statute book the offence of death caused by My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central careless driving while the driver is under the influence of (Gavin Barwell) would be here in the Chamber supporting drugs or alcohol, which attracts a maximum sentence of me if he were not in a Committee. He has fought a 14 years. valiant and successful campaign as a result of the tragic In 2011, the number of drivers tried for causing death case of one of his constituents who died as a result of by careless driving while under the influence of drink or someone driving carelessly. The issue of impairment drugs was 27, and the number of those convicted was must be dealt with properly and that will now happen. zero. Rather than relying on the good work of the last He and I share the concern that the new offence of Conservative Government, we need to ensure that it is drug-driving needs to address the issue of fatalities, followed through in practice. When it comes to the sad which was where the campaign that led to the new and tragic cases of people who die as a result of the offence began. It would therefore be ironic if we were actions of drivers, particularly drivers who are under left with a Bill that does not deal with cases where the influence of drink or drugs, there must be a penalty dangerous driving cannot be proved independently but that exceeds the fairly minimum penalty of a six-month people who are plainly under the influence of drugs or sentence. drink have killed someone, and they can—perhaps through the hard work in years gone by of my hon. Friend the Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I believe that in Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) Northern Ireland there are already rules, regulations and myself as defence solicitors and barristers—get to and laws that address this issue specifically. There has the point where there is a lesser plea of drink-drive with also been a campaign aimed at dealing with drink and a six-month penalty. drugs. Does the hon. Gentleman think that it might Sadly, that has already happened. We have heard that help the Government to contact the Department of 27 people were tried and nil were convicted on this Justice in Northern Ireland, where policing and justice charge. I am concerned that in those cases there was a are a devolved matter? Might they learn something plea bargain to the lesser charge of drink-drive. about how these matters can be handled? The explanatory notes to the Bill make another important point. It is stated about schedule 18: Mr Burrowes: The amendments are intended to enable “Paragraph 2 amends section 3A of the 1988 Act so that if the the Government to conduct a proactive review, which person had a controlled drug in the blood or urine in excess of should, indeed, involve looking at what happens on the the specified limit for that drug, the person could be charged with opposite shore. We all want to tackle the profound the more serious offence in that section of causing death by consequences of death caused by drivers under the careless driving when under the influence of drink or drugs.” influence, and ensure that they receive the appropriate I was proud to serve on the Bill Committee, and I penalty. sought clarity from the Minister about this point, which had been raised in correspondence with the Department Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I, for Transport and the Ministry of Justice dating back to too, must make a declaration. I was a criminal barrister March 2012 and in the campaign I mentioned earlier who both prosecuted and defended. that sought a higher penalty in cases where it was not As my hon. Friend says, the maximum custodial possible to prove careless driving. Unfortunately, now, a sentence for a first offence of drinking and driving is six year after that correspondence began, we are in the final months. It is the same for a second, third and fourth throes of the passage of the Bill. offence. Does he agree that drink-drivers who pose a This point has been made not just by me; this was not threat on our roads should receive longer sentences, and just a hobby-horse of mine—it is not about me wanting that their cases should be sent to the Crown court where to make a point and send out a press release. It was there can be multiple convictions? made by Chief Superintendent David Snelling, who was an excellent commander of the Met traffic division, and Mr Burrowes: I remember briefing my hon. Friend on it also came to the fore as a result of the campaigning many occasions. He was a great advocate in courts in efforts of my constituents, the Galli-Atkinson family, Enfield and Haringey, and he continues that advocacy who lost their daughter as a result of dangerous driving in the House. He has made an important point. There is and who saw a gap involving fatalities in drink and drug a parallel between dealing with drink-driving cases and cases that are not prosecuted as they should be, so we dealing with, for example, cases of criminal damage. do not end up with the sentences that the dead victims Where there is a succession of criminal damage cases, and their families deserve. They make their point based later cases can receive a higher penalty and can be on the practical reality of cases that actually arise, and committed to the Crown court; indeed, there are categories that is also the basis of my amendments. of criminal damage that attract a higher penalty and The gap is in hit-and-run cases where a driver who is the attention of the Crown court. The Government over the limit on drink or drugs crashes into another car should look at whether that principle, which is already or a pedestrian and kills, and then leaves the scene. In in statute, should be applied to drink-drive cases that situations where fatalities occur, such cases are not have the most serious consequences. infrequent, as—it will not surprise Members to learn—many 383 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 384 people who know they are over the limit will do their court and then attracting a maximum sentence of two best to evade prosecution, so they will leave the scene. years. The other option is amendment 120, whereby They get hunted down and arrested, and when they are those on licence, disqualified drivers and uninsured found to be over the limit the prosecution begins and drivers who kill in this way will face a heavy penalty of the investigation continues. A prosecution for a failure two years. That simply adds to the list in respect of to stop carries a limited penalty that does not reflect the drink-driving. gravity of the situation, and I have previously sought I have to put my lawyer’s hat on, because I appreciate amendments to extend the penalties in that regard. that people may have concerns about new clause 18 The prosecutor is left with the option of prosecuting opening up all drink-driving cases to a Crown court for death by careless driving, but the problem is that trial; I recognise the expense and the vagaries of jury there is no witness. In these cases, often the only witness trials, and that that is not wholly satisfactory in itself. I is dead; there is nobody left. The steps are then traced am perhaps being generous in how I am presenting new back and the scene is marked out. The marks on the clause 18 and it perhaps needs to be refined. Perhaps it road might allow people to come up with a prosecution should be simply specified in relation to fatalities. My that shows that careless driving took place, because hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and Rainham there are signs of speed, swerving, braking and so on. suggests making specific provision about repeat drink- But it may well be that none of that is available, as driving offenders. There is certainly a role for making perhaps it was a wet day and very little could be shown. only those high-end cases liable for a committal to Little corroborative evidence may be available beyond Crown court, in a similar way to what happens in the the fact that the person has died because of that vehicle criminal damages cases I referred to earlier. and that driver, and all we have left is the fact that the Another way around that would be to deal with driver was over the limit. magistrates’ maximum sentencing powers. Perhaps the Sadly, all the prosecutor can perhaps do is prosecute Government will respond to the calls from the Magistrates’ for driving with excess alcohol or driving over the Association to extend their powers to a maximum of prescribed limit for drugs, which carries a maximum two years. Youthcourts have a two-year custodial sentence sentence of six months. Clearly that is not acceptable, power, so perhaps we should have equity for adult given the gravity of the situation. Over the years, Parliament courts. That would be much more cost-effective and has recognised that where a death occurs as a result of would avoid cases all going to the Crown court and we driving it needs to be dealt with, and quite properly so. lawyers being paid more up there—although we must So that sets out the gap I am seeking to fill through my appreciate the legal aid restrictions in that regard. The proposals. issue could then be dealt with in a magistrates court in a The issue is whether there can be independent proof proportionate manner. That option is also open to the of careless driving and whether that must be sought Government. out. In Committee, I asked the Minister what he thought I recognise that there are reservations about amendment of the situation and asked him for clarification. I said: 120. As a lawyer, I am not keen on extending strict “I want it to be made clear…that it will not be necessary for the liability cases too readily and the amendment would prosecutor to independently prove careless driving as the standard certainly effectively extend a strict liability scenario to of driving, and that the effect is that someone’s being over the prescribed limit for drugs or alcohol will be sufficient for the drink and drug-driving-related cases. Nevertheless, my prosecutor to be able to make the decision to charge them with a amendment is clean cut. It does not extend the powers serious offence.” of the Crown court to all drink-driving cases but relates He replied: specifically to fatalities. It deals with the issues that have “My understanding is that it will not be necessary. I hope that I motivated my amendments and merely adds to the list have clarified the point.”––[Official Report, Crime and Courts of offences. Members of the public might ask what the Public Bill Committee, 7 February 2013; c. 394-95.] difference is: if someone takes the risk of driving while I would settle for that and move on. Indeed, I would uninsured, disqualified or without a licence, they are probably have a press release saying, “I welcome the pretty careless to do that and should accept the fact that the Minister has recognised that drivers who consequences, and the same applies to those who are are over the limit and kill will get a higher penalty, over the prescribed limits. My amendment would retain which amounts to a maximum 14 years.” I would rest the statutory defence for drink-drive cases and would easy that the campaign has been successful, the victim’s therefore have less of a strict liability nature. voice has been heard, and the chief superintendant and The Government need to fill the gap. I am trying my police on the ground have recognised that gap and say, best to do that and have provided two options. There ”That is good. That has been dealt with.” might be more and I have no doubt that the Minister However, I then received correspondence from the can tell us about any others. I look forward to seeing Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend how the Government will do it as this is a real problem the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), in what we that should not be ignored. The fact that there were might term “Yes Minister” language, saying that there 220 deaths in a year but only 27 people were charged “may be confusion”. That is what has led me to table with causing death by dangerous driving while impaired new clause 18 and amendment 120. It was clear in the in the same period makes the point very clearly. Large Bill Committee that we would have confusion, so today numbers of impaired drivers who kill are, for one reason the Minister has an opportunity to be brave and to fill or another, avoiding prosecution for the more serious the gaps that I have had a go at filling through a couple offence and are probably ending up being charged with of options. the lesser drink-drive offence. One option, new clause 18, would make drink-driving In conclusion, I spoke to Ministers before tabling the or driving over the prescribed drug limit an either-way amendments. I welcome the commitment from Transport offence—one capable of being committed to the Crown Ministers that if I can provide evidence that proving 385 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 386

[Mr Burrowes] rehearse all the arguments, which were well made in the other place, but it is perhaps worth noting that, carelessness is problematic, the Department will review notwithstanding the Government’s indication that they the case for amending legislation. The statistics I have did not support the amendment in the other place, it given are evidence and I put the burden of proof on the was agreed to on a Division by 150 votes to only 54. I Government. I ask them to review the issue and seek to think it is fair to say that there was overwhelming prove the point. We are very much in the end game on support for the removal of the word. this Bill. Some might say we should have done that The very minor amendments that I am proposing earlier to avoid getting into such a situation, but I urge would bring the wording of the offences set out in the Government to recognise that we have a problem sections 4 and 4A of the 1986 Act in line with section 5. and to fix it. I look forward to hearing from the Minister. Those amendments are in line with the findings of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which stated in its Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): It is a great report issued in October 2011: pleasure to contribute, albeit briefly, to the debate. It is “We also support the amendment of the Public Order Act 1986 also a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for to remove all reference to offences based on insulting words or Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes), who made an extremely behaviour. This would enhance human rights and remove a powerful case about the complexities of the situation. possible incompatibility with the right to freedom of expression.” At the heart of the matter is the fact that, as we all I stress that the report states, “remove all reference” to know, people kill other people on the roads yet seem to offences based on the use of insulting words or behaviour, receive remarkably light sentences. His points about not just the reference in section 5 of the Public Order people abusing drugs and alcohol before going on to Act. I entirely accept that most of the publicity and the kill someone were powerful. campaign on the offence of using insulting words or There was a case in my constituency that was not behaviour centred on the need to reform section 5, but drug or alcohol-related but demonstrated an anomaly. if, as the other place has voted, and as the Government Many other people are trying find a solution to this, have accepted, it is deemed sensible and appropriate to and I shall introduce a ten-minute rule Bill on the amend section 5, it must follow that the phrase, “insulting subject later in the spring, but today, in light of what the words or behaviour”, should be removed from other hon. Gentleman said, I want to ask the Minister a provisions in the 1986 Act that make an identical reference. couple of questions. Section 4 of the 1986 Act deals with the fear or provocation of violence and states that someone 5pm “is guilty of an offence if he…uses towards another person In relation to drug-driving, what drugs can we test for threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or…distributes on the roadside today, in the aftermath of incidents like or displays to another person any writing, sign or other visible those that the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting, with described? I would also like to quiz the Minister a little intent to cause that person to believe that immediate unlawful violence will be used against him or another by any person, or to about the drugalyser. When I first heard the idea, I provoke the immediate use of unlawful violence by that person or thought it sounded exactly right and would make a another, or whereby that person is likely to believe that such difference, but my fear is that if it is seen as part of violence will be used or it is likely that such violence will be forensics, it comes under a back-office function of the provoked.” police, and could be subject to fairly serious cuts. I Section 4A, which deals with intentional harassment, cannot see the point of having lots of police legitimately alarm or distress, states: checking people for drug-driving if we cannot get the “A person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a results of the tests and get the guilty people put in jail to person harassment, alarm or distress, he…uses threatening, abusive serve the necessary sentence. or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or…displays Those are my quick points. I urge the Minister to take any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, seriously the thoughtful issues that the hon. Member abusive or insulting, thereby causing that or another person for Enfield, Southgate raised. Across the House, in all harassment, alarm or distress.” parties, people are sick of the fact that people can If my amendments are accepted, the offences would receive such light sentences for one of the most serious remain completely unchanged, apart from the fact that offences imaginable, which causes immense heartbreak the word “insulting” would be removed. If those offences to so many families across the country. are allowed to remain on the statute book unamended there is a serious danger that people who would have Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): I thank the been charged under section 5 will simply be charged hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) for under section 4 or section 4A, and all the campaigners her brief but to-the-point contribution on the new who have been celebrating the insertion of clause 42 clause so ably moved by my hon. Friend the Member and the removal of “insulting words or behaviour” for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes). Many people from section 5 will be disappointed. throughout the country will have sympathy with it, and A leading campaigner for the removal of the word even if it is not added to the Bill today, they will be “insulting” from section 5 is Mr Peter Tatchell. I suspect listening and watching for future developments. that I may disagree with him on other issues, but I hope Amendments 89 and 90 deal with an entirely different he will not mind my praying in aid of my argument matter. As Members are aware, the Bill is wide ranging. words of his that appeared on The Huffington Post Clause 42 was inserted during the Bill’s passage through website in January 2012: the other place. Its effect is to remove the word “insulting” “Section 4A of the Public Order Act is sufficient to cover any from section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986. We could exceptional circumstances requiring prosecution, although its debate that for many days, and I do not propose to criminalisation of mere insults should also be repealed”. 387 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 388

It is obvious that Mr Tatchell has looked at this whole want clarification of the consequences where an individual field and recognised that there is a need wider than just involved in an accident might be over the limit through amending section 5—that it is necessary to amend other medication but would not be at fault for the accident provisions in the Public Order Act. itself. I welcome rather belatedly the bauble that the Our country rightly values and defends the right of hon. Gentleman wishes to add to the Bill and I look individuals to freedom of speech and freedom of expression. forward to the Minister’s response to it. It is wholly wrong to retain any reference to the term Amendment 2 reflects the Opposition’s concerns about “insulting” in any criminal offences on our statute the implications of the Bill for the laws on drug-driving. book. The people of this country are fed up with We welcome the proposals to make driving while under political correctness. If the House supports these minor the influence of illegal drugs against the law. I am amendments, it would be one small step towards restoring disappointed not to see in the Chamber the hon. Member the public’s faith in this House and in our country as a for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell), given the work place where the freedom of speech and the freedom of that he has done on the issue on behalf of his constituent, expression are cherished. Lillian Groves. We know that drug-driving will be a substantial offence. We know from the Government’s Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): I speak impact assessment that more than 2,000 people will be on behalf of the Opposition on this collection of affected by the new provision. amendments. The Bill has been called a Christmas tree because of the number of different issues that have been As the Minister told the Committee, although it may tacked on to it. This selection of amendments feels a not be on a scale comparable to drink-driving, it is little like a series of tinsels and baubles and some fairy important that we close the gap that drug-driving has lights, but when those are all put together, they create created. However, there is no point in having a power if the Crime and Courts Bill. one cannot put it into practice. Amendment 2 requires the Government to ensure, through an impact assessment, Before turning to our amendment 2, I shall make a that the clause can be enacted across the country. That few brief comments on new clause 18 and amendment 120 will entail looking at the equipment, training and resources tabled by the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate that the Home Office, the Department for Transport, (Mr Burrowes). All of us have sympathy for the concerns the Ministry of Justice and the Crown Prosecution that he raises, and we will have seen cases in our own Service have to enable them to implement the law. constituencies where people’s lives and families have been devastated by drink-driving. It is disappointing Those concerns reflect the debates we had in Committee, that these amendments were not tabled in Committee. when the Government were simply unable to explain The hon. Gentleman and I spoke at length about various what work they had done to ensure that the potential issues, and it would have been good to get some guidance new offence could in fact be prosecuted. We had a from the Government about the implications of the number of questions about the logistics of rolling out discussion that he had with them. There are issues that this policy across the country. With that in mind, I want merit further examination, but I am not sure whether to ask the Minister a series of questions, which I hope Report stage is the right time for that. No doubt we will he will answer when he responds. hear from the Minister about the implications of implementation. 5.15 pm Some issues will need to be taken into account in First and foremost, the key issue is how well equipped respect of the powers of magistrates. We all understand our police forces are to address that new crime. The and have sympathy with the idea of flexibility in sentencing, Home Office’s own briefing states: but there may be concerns about what that might mean “For the most effective enforcement of the new offence, the for the sentences handed out. I am not clear what the police will be assisted by the availability of reliable drug testing hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate seeks to achieve devices.” with amendment 120. He might inadvertently remove We certainly concur. We all know that the provision of the offence of careless driving and I am sure he would breathalysers makes drink-driving a much clearer and not wish to do that. Somebody who gets behind the simpler offence to prosecute because evidence can be wheel and is already over the limit through medication gathered. The hon. Member for Croydon Central argued would drive carelessly in any case— strongly in Committee about the importance of the police having the appropriate equipment to deal with Mr Burrowes: The prosecution may want to push the crime. forward a prosecution for careless driving with limited independent evidence of standard driving, but the CPS However, alcohol testing is very different from drug guidance is clear that being over the limit does not in substance testing; alcohol testing requires a test for a itself amount to carelessness. Relying on that to prosecute single substance, but drug testing will inevitably involve for carelessness is not good enough. That is the reason tests for a range of substances, and indeed of a range of for my amendment, which expresses a concern that the substances to find the substance. We already know that Government need to hear. the testing equipment will have to be approved by the Home Office. At present, only one item, which tests for Stella Creasy: I understand the point that the hon. cannabis use via an oral saliva swab, has been approved. Gentleman makes. That is exactly why we needed to test Indeed, several police forces have reported that they do in Committee the consequences of the changes that his not have that technology at the moment. When my hon. amendment would make. That would have allowed us Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North to hear a fuller explanation from the Government of (Diana Johnson) went to see the new machinery in her the consequences. I hope I am proved wrong by the constituency, she found that they had only one machine, Minister and that he will give us an extensive explanation that it needed a full room and that police officers had to of the potential impact of the amendments. I would wait a full hour before they could access it. 389 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 390

We already know that police forces do not necessarily metabolise different drugs will be key to the success of have the technology to deal with just one aspect of the offence. In particular, we know that co-codamol, drug-driving. If there is more than one substance they which we discussed at length in Committee, can, like need to test for, do they have all the equipment they heroin, be metabolised in some people’s systems. Questions need to be able to test for that wide range of substances? about how different drugs will be treated and tested are Fortunately, the Policing and Criminal Justice Minister, key to the Bill’s enactment, but the Minister admitted in in response to a parliamentary question from my right Committee: hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), proved “At the moment, I cannot give the Committee the relevant otherwise when he said: levels. It is difficult for me to defend work that does not yet exist “Once manufactured and type approved, decisions on the and it is difficult for us to debate it”.––[Official Report, Crime and number and type of devices to purchase are also operational Courts Public Bill Committee, 7 February 2013; c. 389.] decisions for chief officers as they will know what best meets their Ministers have admitted that they do not know what individual force needs.”—[Official Report, 25 February 2013; they will be testing for, we do not know whether the Vol. 559, c. 116W.] police have the necessary equipment to test for it, and We have recently seen the expert panel report, which the expert panel has set out a wide range of potential details the sorts of tests the police would be expected to tests that might need to be taken. perform and the types of substances they would be expected That leads us to the question of whether the police to test for. It is clear that it is much more complex than will be able to gather the appropriate evidence. A response testing for drink-driving, so the types of machinery and to another parliamentary question tabled by my right equipment that the police will need will be much more hon. Friend the Member for Delyn revealed that no complex. Indeed, the question of whether a single machine, assessment has been made of the training required by such as a breathalyser, could be produced to test for police forces to be able to undertake roadside drug every drug that the expert panel has suggested should testing. This is a critical issue, because the expert panel be tested for is one that I hope the Minister will answer. itself has pointed out that the most effective evidence Above all, that raises a series of questions about the on drug offences is gathered at the roadside. The question cost implications for our police forces. We know that police of whether blood and urine samples will be tested at the forces are investing in some of that technology.For example, roadside will also be a key issue for how the police Essex police are investing in the tests for cannabis, but manage the system. As the expert panel points out, it is whether they will be able to buy a machine that tests for widely acknowledged that blood and, to a lesser degree, all drugs is clearly a question of value for money. For oral fluids are most likely to give the most accurate the Home Office simply to say that that is a matter for measurement of drugs currently active in the system. the police to decide is not an appropriate way to proceed, Potential prosecutions may rest on whether a substance given the importance of getting the offence right. was in somebody’s system at the time an offence was committed, so accurate evidence is vital. For example, will the police be able to test for legal highs? I am aware that the expert panel does not think This is a problem, therefore, not just for our police, that there is sufficient evidence at present on the impairment but for our courts. As a result of my right hon. Friend’s generated for a driver, but were that evidence test to sterling work in asking parliamentary questions, we change, would the police then have to buy a subsequent have uncovered the fact that the courts do not have the set of equipment to be able to deal with that, and what relevant training to deal with questions about differences would be the consequences for their budgets? I think in metabolism and equipment or to interpret the evidence. that the Minister needs to give us much more information That is why we have tabled the amendment to push the about what he has done to ensure that when this becomes Government to be much clearer on how we can all make law our police have the equipment they need to deal sure that this particular offence is dealt with successfully. with every drug that might impair driving. As the We do not know how the equipment will be developed, Institute of Advanced Motorists has pointed out, unlike how much it will cost or its source. We do not know alcohol, which is just one drug, the number and range whether police budgets will be able to extend to the of drugs that can impair someone’s driving is almost range of equipment they will need, or whether the police incalculable. Designing a piece of machinery that will will be given appropriate training to collect the necessary deal with all of them will prove extremely difficult. samples in the right manner to secure a successful prosecution. It is not unreasonable for Parliament to The Opposition want more evidence that the Government continue to ask those questions. have really thought that through so that we do not see I hope that the Minister will not only say that he people being let down by the inability of the police to supports our amendment and the intention behind it, deal with particular substances. Indeed, it is not just but provide much more detail. In particular, will the about being able to test for difference substances; the Government accept in full the guidelines suggested by way different substances are metabolised within people’s the expert panel? Have the Government made provision systems will also play a part in the effectiveness of the to ensure that police forces throughout the country are offence. As my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, able to purchase the necessary equipment and that they Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) argued in Committee, we will be able to future-test those purchases when new need to know the level of drugs that will be likely to evidence becomes available about the impact of different result in a prosecution. Will it be equivalent to current drugs as our experience and understanding of issues levels for alcohol and drink-driving offences? What such as legal highs develops? The amendment seeks to work has been done to show that comparable tests can probe the Government to ensure that, at this late stage, be achieved? they have done more of the homework that we all want We welcome the belated publication of the expert to see so that the offence is recognised and families of panel document, which gives some detail on that, but people such as Lillian Groves can take comfort that the question of the ways in which different individuals Parliament is listening to their concerns. 391 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 392

In conclusion, I want to speak briefly to amendments drug-driving law found that in one police force, only 89 and 90. We all enjoyed the opportunity provided in 35% of positive preliminary impairment tests led to Committee to discuss our favourite insults—whether findings of guilt at court in 2008 and 2009. It is clear, they be the work of Nye Bevan or Winston Churchill—and, therefore, that the existing law on drug-driving is naturally, to repeat them and direct them at each other. unsatisfactory, resulting in costs being incurred unnecessarily However, I want to put on record that the amendments by the police, the CPS and the courts. and our concerns about section 5 of the Public Order The new offence will reduce the wasted time, expense Act 1986 are based on serious worries about its potential and effort involved when prosecutions under the existing impact, particularly on minority communities. We agreed impairment offence fail. It is not surprising, therefore, with the Government’s decision not to overturn the that the new offence is supported by the Association of other place’s decision to remove the word “insulting” Chief Police Officers. ACPO has been fully involved in from section 5 on the basis of evidence provided by the the development of the proposal and is fully aware of Director of Public Prosecutions that all the cases brought the resource implications for the police. so far could have been prosecuted without taking that Depending on the level at which specified limits are word into consideration. Nevertheless, concerns have set and on the drugs specified for the offence, it is been raised by a number of groups, particularly Stonewall, possible that introducing the new offence, which does which points out that 88% of incidents of homophobic not require proof of impairment, will increase the number of abuse that many of the people it represents have experienced proceedings against drug-drivers. However, based on involved insults, abuse and harassment. Many of us are the Government’s estimates, those costs will be more also concerned about the Government’s management of than offset by savings from fewer road deaths and debates such as that on the “Innocence of Muslims” film. serious injuries. Indeed, the impact assessment published There is no such evidence for the changes that the in May 2012 records an overall net saving of some hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) wishes to £86 million over a 10-year period. make. I urge him to look again at the distinctions I acknowledge that, as the hon. Member for between sections 4 and 4A and section 5 of the 1986 Act, Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) said, there is still work to particularly with regard to the role that insults may play be done and that getting the technical details right is in incitement to violence. Given the distinction identified difficult and important. Although she said that this by the Crown Prosecution Service, we are not convinced work is being done at the last moment, we do not that the same sort of evidence exists to remove the word envisage the offence coming into effect until the later “insulting” from sections 4 and 4A as that to remove it part of next year, so there is time to get the details right. form section 5. The Crown Prosecution Service is clear The Department for Transport and, where relevant, the that these are two very different elements of offence. Home Office will be concerned to ensure that the details There are different conditions under which sections 4 are in place. and 4A of the 1986 Act would be brought forward. I note in particular the number of prosecutions that The hon. Lady asked about police equipment and involve racial or religious harassment that have been training to support the enforcement of the new offence. brought forward under section 4A. Equipment was also mentioned by the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones). We have already I urge caution on the hon. Member for Bury North in granted type approval for the first station-based drug believing that the issues with the use of the word screening device for use in enforcing the existing impairment “insulting”in section 5, which clearly precludes disruptive offence. We are also committed to type approving roadside behaviour, can be translated into sections 4 and 4A in devices for use in enforcing the new offence. Work on the way that he has tried to do. I urge the Government that will be taken forward once we have determined the to exercise extreme caution in considering whether to drugs to be covered by the new offence and the specified make such a move and in responding to amendments 89 limit for each drug. Our aim is to have approved roadside and 90. devices available as soon as practicable after the I look forward to the Minister’s response and to a full commencement of the new offence. As hon. Members explanation of just how he will make the offence of will know, training on the use of new equipment is an drug-driving a reality in this country in the years ahead. operational matter for chief officers in consultation with roadside drug-testing device manufacturers. I Mr Jeremy Browne: I will talk mainly about drug-driving acknowledge the validity of the observation made because that has been the largest part of our debate, but by the hon. Member for Walthamstow that the I will pick up on the points that have been made in Government do not have the answers to every question, relation to other amendments. but I hope that I can reassure the House that the work is On drug-driving, it is important that we consider ongoing. carefully any extra burdens that we place on the police, the Crown prosecutors and the Courts Service when Stella Creasy: Will the Minister respond to the question introducing a new offence. The Government published that I asked him about the expert panel, which has set an impact assessment in May last year that considered out a series of substances that should be tested for? Will those issues. It shows that removing the requirement to the Government accept its recommendations in full and prove that a driver is impaired will make it easier to ensure that every police force can test for all the substances enforce the law against drug-drivers. that it has outlined? In 2010, about 40% of the proceedings in magistrates 5.30 pm courts for driving while impaired through drugs were withdrawn or dismissed. The comparable figure for Mr Browne: No final decision has been made on the exceeding the drink-drive limit is just 3%. In addition, precise list of what will be tested for. We are grateful for research for Sir Peter North’s review of drink and the contributions and representations that have been 393 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 394

[Mr Jeremy Browne] hon. Member for Walthamstow suggested. However, if evidence of that is brought to our attention we will of made, and when we are in a position to provide the course consider it properly. details we will do so. We obviously want to ensure that a My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate wide range of drugs whose consumption could lead to also proposed new clause 18 that would increase the increased risk on our roads are covered, but the line will maximum sentence for the prescribed limit drink-driving need to be drawn somewhere and there will be practical offence to two years’ imprisonment. The United Kingdom considerations to take into account. We will obviously already has the toughest drink-driving penalties in Europe. want to ensure that we inform everybody once the Sir Peter North’s 2010 review of drink and drug-driving deliberations have run their course. law examined the penalty regime and did not identify On new clause 18 and amendment 120, my hon. any evidence that would support that increase in the Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) maximum sentence. The Government are not aware of has explained that he is concerned about the penalty any new evidence that has come to light since the North regimes for drink and drug-driving. That is the issue report was published. that has exercised people the most, so I think it will be The Government consider that the existing offence helpful if I dwell on it for a while. The new drug-driving framework is sufficient and appropriate, and ensures offence created in clause 41 will be subject to the same that those who ought not to be on the roads are removed penalty regime as the existing drink-driving offence of from them. Where more serious offences are committed— driving or being in charge of a motor vehicle with an such as where others are hurt or killed—other relevant alcohol concentration above the prescribed limit. The offences could be pursued. I do not want to suggest in penalties available are mandatory disqualification from any way that the Government are complacent about or driving for at least a year, and a fine of up to £5,000, insufficiently vigilant in the face of such matters. We and/or imprisonment for up to six months. In addition, want to make our roads as safe as possible, but it is there is the offence in section 3A of the Road Traffic worth noting that Britain has some of the safest roads Act 1988 of causing death by careless driving while anywhere in Europe and the western world. That is due under the influence of drink or drugs, which carries a to responsible social attitudes but also the fact that the penalty of up to 14 years’ imprisonment. It is necessary legal framework in place has been shown to be effective. for the prosecution to show that a person’s driving was I understand, however, why people involved in each careless to secure a conviction for that offence. individual case and each individual tragedy would feel Section 3ZB of the 1988 Act makes it a criminal strongly about these matters. offence to cause death by driving while unlicensed, Amendments 89 and 90 in the name of my hon. disqualified or uninsured. The maximum penalty is two Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) bring years’ imprisonment, or a fine, or both. Amendment me to the subject of public order offences. I suggest that 120 would amend that section to include people who the amendments would limit the police’s ability to deal were driving with a specified controlled drug in their with those who can be shown to be intentionally provoking body in excess of a specified limit. Importantly for my violence, causing others to fear violence, or causing hon. Friend, carelessness does not have to be proved to harassment, alarm or distress to others. They would do secure a conviction under that section. I know that he is that by removing the word “insulting” from the offences concerned that requiring the prosecution to prove under sections 4 and 4A of the Public Order Act 1986. carelessness puts too great a burden on it, but the My hon. Friend may see the amendments as a helpful Government are not aware of any recent cases in which intervention to bring those sections of the 1986 Act into that has proved problematic. The hon. Member for line with the amendment to section 5 of that Act set out Walthamstow made that point. in clause 42, but that would be a mistake as it would The test for carelessness is broad, and CPS guidance ignore the thorough consideration, consultation and suggests that a wide variety of circumstances should be debate undertaken by the Government, both here and considered as carelessness. Indeed, in the case of Lillian in the other place, before agreeing to reform section 5. It Groves, which has been raised by the hon. Member for would also ignore the significant differences between Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell)—although he is in the section 5 offence and the more serious offences another debate now, he has been extremely vigilant in described in sections 4 and 4A. This is not just a pursuing the case on behalf of his constituents—the tidying-up exercise; sections 4 and 4A are materially driver was convicted of causing death by careless driving. different from section 5. Offences under sections 4 and It therefore seems likely that if the new offence had been 4A require proof of intent to cause harm to another in force when the tragedy took place, the defendant person, and proof that harassment, alarm or distress would have been tried under the section 3A offence, was both intended and actually caused to another person. provided that the prosecution could also show that he The intent and harm caused are the differentiating had a specified controlled drug in his body in excess of features of those offences, rather than the likely effect of the specified limit. the words used or behaviour involved. However, if my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Using insulting words that cause someone to fear Southgate or interested groups can provide evidence violence against them, or that have the deliberate intention that prosecutors are failing to prosecute drivers for the of causing harassment, alarm or distress, is a far more section 3A offence because they cannot show that the serious matter than the section 5 offence in which the driver was careless, the Department for Transport has perpetrator might not intend to cause harassment, alarm undertaken to review the case for amending legislation. or distress, and indeed none might have been caused. In The changes in the Bill will make a difference, but the the Government’s view, using insulting words or behaviour carelessness provision already stands and we have no in the context of sections 4 or 4A oversteps the line reason to believe that it will prevent prosecutions, as the between freedom of speech and the freedom of someone 395 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 396 to live in peace and safety. The line must be drawn amount of time to expect police forces to deal with it, so somewhere, and the Government believe it right to draw can he explicitly set out for the House when he expects it between sections 4A and 5. to report back on these issues? Furthermore, during the long-running campaign that culminated in clause 42, one key argument put forward Mr Browne: The Government will publish a revised by those seeking to remove “insulting” from section 5 of impact assessment alongside our consultation on the the 1986 Act was that removal would not have a negative drugs to be covered by the new offence and the limit for impact on minority groups. The reasoning behind that each, and we will revise it again, if required, before the was that the police have more appropriate powers available draft regulations are laid before Parliament. As the to deal with such unacceptable behaviour under sections 4 regulations are subject to the affirmative procedure, and 4A of the 1986 Act. Having accepted that argument they will need to be debated and approved by each as part of the reasoning behind the removal of “insulting” House before they can be made and come into force. from section 5, it seems perverse to remove the protections Given the requirement to consult on the draft regulations to minorities provided by the “insulting”limb in sections 4 and then to have them approved, we are currently and 4A. working on the basis that the new offence will come into force in the latter half of 2014, as I said a few In summary, for reasons that I hope I have explained moments ago. to the satisfaction of the House, the Government are not persuaded of the case for making the same change On that basis, I would suggest that requiring a full to section 4 and 4A offences that clause 42 makes to the evaluation of the impact of the new offence just 12 months section 5 offence. after Royal Assent would be premature. However, I can assure the House that the Government will commission Finally, I ought to speak briefly to the single Government research to evaluate the effectiveness of the new offence amendment in this group, amendment 84, which provides once it is in operation. The research will take account of for the enhanced householder defence provisions in the impact of the new offence on the police, prosecutors clause 30 to come into force on Royal Assent. Clause 30 and the courts. The results of such research will be is designed to give householders greater latitude to published on the Department for Transport’s website. A protect themselves in those terrifying circumstances lot of the responsibility sits with the Department for when they are confronted by intruders in their homes. Transport rather than the Home Office, but I am not in We recognise that it is unusual, although not unprecedented, a position to give the hon. Lady a definitive date when to commence provisions of this nature on Royal Assent. these matters can be considered in detail. All I can give We would usually allow a gap of at least two months is an assurance that this work is being undertaken and between Royal Assent and commencement, to allow the that opportunities will exist to consider such matters. I enforcement agencies time to prepare. However, in this say this entirely in a spirit of openness, but I see no case we are anxious to avoid any unnecessary delay in reason why we would not wish to give Members in all delivering a coalition commitment and, more important, a parts of the House an opportunity to consider the tangible enhancement of the protection that householders progress the Government have made when we are in a have to defend themselves. The Government have position to bring forward proposals that will stimulate a discussed the amendment with the police and the Crown debate and consideration of that type. Prosecution Service, which are content with clause 30 being commenced on Royal Assent. We think the public With that, I hope that Members will see fit not to would find it difficult to understand why commencement press their amendments, and I commend Government had been delayed beyond Royal Assent, particularly if a amendment 84 to the House. householder was attacked by an intruder in the intervening period while acting to protect themselves or family Mr Burrowes: I welcome the debate on new clause 18. members, but could not rely on the heightened householder The hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) defence. referred to the proposals as a “bauble”, but this is a serious matter and I am not sure that the victims, the For all the reasons I have set out, I would invite police and the road safety charities behind the new Opposition Members and my hon. Friends the Members clause would appreciate it being referred to as a bauble. for Enfield, Southgate and for Bury North not to press However, I appreciate that her comments were being their amendments. I recognise that I cannot provide the made in the general context of the Bill. House with all the practical details of the methods that police forces will use to test for drug-driving, but we are at the broad legislative phase, not the practical 5.45 pm implementation phase. I can assure the House that we I have received some criticism for tabling the new will no doubt discuss such practical considerations in clause and amendment 120 at a rather late stage in the due course, but they are not necessary to approve the proceedings. However, the issue was raised last year proposed legislation before us. with the Department for Transport, and hon. Members will recall that my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Stella Creasy: Given the Minister’s open, earnest and Central (Gavin Barwell) and I raised the matter on welcome admission that he cannot answer the questions Second Reading. My hon. Friend has rightly been lauded raised today and that the spirit of our amendment 2 is for his excellent campaign on the issue. We relied at the precisely to get at that information, will he set tell the time on the explanatory notes to the Bill, and we House when we will have that information about the received assurances that a person who killed someone implementation of the offence and the ability of our when driving while over the limit in relation to drugs or police forces and courts to deal with it? After all, our alcohol would face the prospect of being charged with amendment calls for information one year after the the offence of causing death by careless driving while introduction of the offence, which seems a reasonable under the influence of drink or drugs, which carries a 397 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 398 heavy penalty. On the basis of those assurances, we New clause 7—Enforcement services proceeded to the Bill Committee, where my hon. Friend ‘(1) The Legal Services Act 2007 is amended as follows. the Minister gave further clarification and assurances (2) After section 125 insert— that the gap that I have described had already been filled. Subsequently, however, we have realised that there 125A (1) For the purposes of this Part (and sections 1, 21 and is a need for further clarity. 27 as they apply in relation to this Part)— (a) the Bailiffs and Enforcement Agents Council is to be I welcome the Minister’s response to the new clause. I treated as an approved regulator; also welcome the fact that he and the Under-Secretary (b) enforcement services are to be treated as a reserved of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for legal activity; Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond), recognise that this is (c) a person authorised under sections 63 and 64 of the an important issue. I appreciate the Minister’s openness Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act services is to in saying that if the necessary evidence were to come to be treated as an authorised person in relation to that light, an undertaking would be made to review the case activity; for amending the legislation. That is a welcome (d) the Bailiffs and Enforcement Agents Council is to be commitment. treated as a relevant authorising body in relation to Only 27 people were charged with causing death by such a person, and careless driving while under the influence of drink or (e) regulations under the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement drugs, even though 220 deaths were classified as having Act 2007 and the National Standards for Enforcement that as a contributory factor, which suggests that there Agents are to be treated as regulatory arrangements is a gap. I invite the Government to work with me to get of the Bailiffs and Enforcement Agents Council as an beneath those figures and find out why that difference approved regulator. exists between those two numbers. There is also a difference (2) For the purposes of sections 112 and 145 (as extended by between the number of people tried for the offence, this section), a person authorised under sections 63 and 64 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act, is to be treated as a which was 27, and the number of people convicted, “relevant authorised person” in relation to the Regulator.”.’. which was zero. Is there perhaps an over-reliance on the simple offence of driving with excess alcohol or while New clause 17—Protection of vulnerable debtors over the limit in relation to drugs? ‘(1) At any time after a notice required under paragraph 7, Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 I will seek to meet the Minister’s challenge to me and is served on a debtor, the debtor may apply to the court to stay or others to bring any additional evidence to the Government’s suspend the notice on terms on either of the following grounds— attention. I hope that there will then be a joint investigation (a) the enforcement action being taken is disproportionate into that evidence that will culminate in the Government to the debt and circumstances involved; and fulfilling their obligation to amend the legislation appropriately. In the light of the Minister’s assurances, I (b) the debtor’s goods may be insufficient in value to satisfy the debt involved. beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause. (2) The court may, in its discretion and if satisfied with the Clause, by leave, withdrawn. above grounds, suspend or stay any judgment or order given or made in prior proceedings for such time and on such terms as the court thinks fit. Clause 18 (3) Enforcement proceedings under Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 are proceedings for JUDICIAL APPOINTMENTS the purposes of section 71(2) and section 88 of the County Court Act 1984. The Solicitor-General (Oliver Heald): I beg to move (4) Subject to the regulations under section 64 of the Tribunals, amendment 22, page 17, line 21, at end insert— Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 complaints against holders of ‘Part 4A amends the selection procedure for certain certificates shall be considered by a designated judge and may senior judicial appointments until Part 4 of the include both complaints regarding compliance with the terms of Schedule is in force,’. certification as well as the exercise of legal powers under the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007. Further to which— Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): With this it (a) the designated judge may, on consideration of a will be convenient to discuss the following: complaint, exercise powers under section 64 to Government amendments 10 to 21. suspend or cancel a holder’s certificate; and Amendment 100, page 224, line 42, schedule 13, at (b) the designated judge shall publish an annual report. end insert— (5) The Lord Chancellor shall periodically review data ‘Each of the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice must concerning complaints against holders of certificates, update at all times engage in a programme of action which is designed— guidance where evidence of bad practice arises and respond to any recommendations set out in a report under subsection 2 (a) to secure, so far as it is reasonably practicable to do so, within six months.’. that appointments to listed judicial offices are such that those holding such offices are reflective of the Government new clause 5—Supreme Court chief community in England and Wales; executive, officers and staff. (b) to require the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Government new clause 6—Making and use of recordings Justice of England and Wales, so far as it is reasonably of Supreme Court proceedings. practicable to do so, to secure that a range of persons reflective of the community in England and Wales is Government amendments 60, 77 to 80, 82 and 83. available for consideration by the Judicial Appointments Commission whenever it is required to select a person The Solicitor-General: I shall start by speaking to the to be appointed, or recommended for appointment, Government amendments, but I should also like to hear to a listed judicial office.’. the comments of the right hon. Member for Blackburn Government amendments 23 to 59. (Mr Straw), the hon. Member for Darlington (Jenny 399 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 400

Chapman) and my hon. Friend the Member for South policy was brought forward in partnership with the Swindon (Mr Buckland), if he arrives. I shall start with judiciary and the aim has always been to move forward amendments 22, 57 and 58. collectively in the delivery of our shared aims and As hon. Members will be aware, the Government are objectives. After further consultation with the judiciary making a number of changes to the judicial appointments and further thought, it has been decided that the particular process, including to the selection process for the Lord skills and experience needed in the Crown court mean Chief Justice and the heads of division. As part of the that it should be removed from the flexible deployment changes, the details of the selection process that are provisions. Those matters should be dealt with by Crown currently in the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 will court judges, as happens now. move into secondary legislation. There are many reasons Amendments 10 to 21 are technical and minor for doing that, and many improvements are being made. amendments dealing with the single family court provisions. There is an urgency to this, however, because the Lord I can be brief, because there is only one point of Chief Justice is about to retire and we hope that it will substance. At the moment, magistrates courts can vary be possible to deal with the new appointment and any maintenance orders registered with them, but because consequential appointment of a head of division under in future the family courts will be able to issue those the new system rather than the old. The amendments orders, it is necessary to provide that magistrates will no aim to achieve that by briefly inserting the new selection longer have that variation power, which will lie with the process into the 2005 Act, so that it applies to the family courts—a victory for the Committee, the other appointment of Lord Judge’s successor. I must stress place and, of course, the Government. that it will be a transitory measure and will cease to New clause 5 relates to the appointment of the chief have effect after the appointment of the next Lord Chief executive of the UK Supreme Court. I am confident it Justice and any consequent head of division. It is then will be welcomed. A new clause along similar lines was intended that the secondary legislation will follow. tabled in the other place and again here in Committee. Amendments 25 to 55 deal with the technical aspects The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justicesaid at of the change to the Lord Chancellor’s role in the the time that we were going to discuss the matter with judicial appointments process, including the transfer to the powers that be. The appointments process for the the Lord Chief Justice or the Senior President of Tribunals, chief executive of the UK Supreme Court has been as appropriate, of the power to decide upon selections discussed with the president of the Court, and I am made by the Judicial Appointments Commission for pleased to report that those discussions have been certain judicial offices below the High Court. The successfully concluded, and the Government have therefore Government intend to retain the Lord Chancellor’s role tabled the new clause with the Court’s agreement. Thus in all other aspects of these appointments, particularly the president of the UK Supreme Court, not the Lord terms and conditions for fixed-term judicial appointments Chancellor, is responsible for the appointment of the where a fee is paid. However, the Bill currently transfers chief executive. It is no longer necessary for the chief the power to renew, or to refuse to renew, fixed-term executive to agree the staffing structure with the Lord judicial appointments to the Lord Chief Justice and Chancellor, and the provision also clarifies that the Senior President of Tribunals. Amendments 25 to Court’s officers and staff will be civil servants—something 55 therefore amend schedule 13 so that that power is that needed to be done. retained with the Lord Chancellor. They ensure that, in New clause 6 deals with broadcasting in the Supreme exercising that role, the Lord Chancellor must, as now, Court. To clarify matters, clause 28 expressly disapplies if deciding not to renew a fixed-term appointment, section 9 of the Contempt of Court Act 1981, which comply with any requirement to secure the consent of prohibits sound recordings in court, to facilitate court the Lord Chief Justice or Senior President of Tribunals. broadcasting below the UK Supreme Court. It looks Amendments 23 and 24 also deal with the selection odd not to confirm at the same time that the Supreme process for judicial appointments and the move from Court is able to be exempt, so new clause 6 achieves primary to secondary legislation. As part of these changes, that. Let me be clear that this is about clarifying the the original idea was to move the requirement for there matter; there is no question that this has caused any to be a commissioner with special knowledge of Wales problem in the past. on the commission into secondary legislation, but on Amendments 60, 77, 78 and 82 make consequential further consideration, the Government decided that it amendments. I now reach the point where I can say that was important to retain an appropriate level of input by I am looking forward to hearing the right hon. Member a lay member of the commission with a special knowledge for Blackburn and other colleagues presenting their of Wales and that that requirement should remain in new clauses and amendments. primary legislation. The amendments therefore reinstate the requirement in the 2005 Act that those selecting Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): I shall address persons for appointment as commissioners should ensure, my remarks to the Government amendments, but also as far as practicable, that there is at least one lay to new clause 7, which deals with bailiffs, and commissioner with special knowledge of Wales. amendment 100 on judicial diversity. Amendment 59 relates to the judicial deployment Let me start with a positive. We are pleased that the provisions in schedule 14. The objective is to give the Government have seen fit to include new clause 5. These Lord Chief Justice more flexibility in deploying judges provisions were debated favourably in the other place to different courts and tribunals. That supports an and were introduced by the Opposition in Committee. important objective for the Government because it means The creation of the Supreme Court was, I think, an that judges can be used efficiently. Individual judges will excellent achievement of the previous Government and also benefit, if they have a wider breadth of experience it is right that Ministers have accepted the argument put and can develop their judicial careers as a result. The to them by the Opposition and many in the profession 401 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 402

[Jenny Chapman] background to enter the profession. We are rightly proud of our judiciary, and we want that pride to for a further transfer of powers to strengthen the Court’s continue. independence. We welcome the Government’s agreement The Government have taken some welcome steps in with the recommendations and their decision to include the Bill, not least the introduction of flexible working in the Bill these important changes. conditions and the tipping-point provision, and I commend Continuing on a positive note, we completely accept them for that. As I am sure they recognise, however, the the other Government new clauses and I am sure that limit of the tipping point is that it requires a candidate you, Mr Deputy Speaker, will be pleased that a member to reach that point in the first place. We need a good of the Judicial Appointments Commission will have pool from which to recruit. Opening up the possibilities special knowledge of Wales in the future. of recruitment and promotion in the profession is vital Amendment 100 was tabled by my right hon. Friend if we are to gain the best and the brightest young people the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw). I have not heard from the length and breadth of our constituencies. I do what he is about to say, but I feel confident that I should not know how many of my constituents have become agree with it. The Opposition are strongly in favour of judges. I assume that some have, but probably not as that amendment. My noble Friend Baroness Hale gave many as I would wish. a lecture a few weeks ago, in which she stated she was The amendment is a proven and highly desirable going to provision. It proposes a small change in the law that “start by taking it for granted that judicial diversity is a good would present opportunities for many more talented thing.” individuals to prove their ability to guard and interpret For the purposes of this debate, I shall use a few more the law as members of the judiciary. It represents welcome words to echo the arguments that will be put by my progress, although it is long overdue. Should my right right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn, but I hon. Friend wish to press it to a vote, he will have our think the House will agree that my noble Friend also support. speaks with considerable expertise on this issue. New clause 7, entitled “Enforcement services”, deals The Government have recognised in the Bill that with the issue of an independent complaints procedure diversity in our judiciary is desirable, and unless we for bailiff practice. It allows a complainant against a hold with the idea that talent is innately concentrated in bailiff redress through an ombudsman. The issue has one social group, we must acknowledge that for every some history in relation to the Bill, in which this important exceptional judge we have, we are losing out on able provision has previously been included. I am grateful candidates because we do not do enough to find them. for the opportunity to bring it back to the House, but it Measures to support diversity seek not to give credit is more than a little disappointing to have to argue yet where it is not due, but to encourage ability wherever it again for its inclusion in the face of Government opposition. may be found. We have seen many instances where it The new clause amends the Legal Services Act 2007 has been argued that merit and diversity are mutually to provide for enforcement services to be treated as a exclusive, but we have argued that a diverse judiciary is reserved legal activity, which means that the Office for not artificial or missing out on talent—it is quite the Legal Complaints would have jurisdiction to deal with other way round. Diversity matters in both principle complaints about bailiffs. It was first introduced as an and practice. A judiciary that incorporates a range of amendment by Baroness Meacher, who said that it voices, backgrounds and experiences brings more to the table. The differences, as Baroness Hale put it, “seeks to provide some protection for vulnerable people who have suffered unacceptably at the hands of a bailiff.”—[Official Report, “add variety and depth to all decision-making.” House of Lords, 18 December 2012; Vol. 741, c. 1475.] It was supported by a majority of the Lords, who 6pm passed it in a Government defeat. The amendment confers a duty on the Lord Chancellor The fact that aggressive and unlawful bailiff action is and the Lord Chief Justice a problem that is both serious and too widespread is not “as far as it is reasonably practicable to do so” in contention. The Government’s consultation has —that is important—to encourage the establishment of acknowledged the unacceptable occurrence of intimidating, a judiciary that better reflects the society that it serves. aggressive and threatening behaviour by some in the That brings many obvious and stated benefits, not least bailiff industry. Citizens advice bureaux report receiving public confidence in the courts. over 24,000 complaints against private bailiff practice One of the major strengths of the amendment is in 2011 and 2012. After too many months of silence that it has a precedent. It is modelled directly on a law following their consultation, the Government have made in Northern Ireland that was implemented to ensure a great deal over the past few weeks of their intention to that all sections of society were respected in judicial transform bailiff action, but their proposal is to implement appointments. It is popular across the political spectrum part 3 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 in Northern Ireland, and has met with considerable introduced by the previous Government, which codified success there. I understand that it is reasonably over 800 years of enforcement law and paved the way uncontroversial. A second strength of the amendment for extensive reform to challenge bad practice. Part 3 is that it is in the spirit of the diversity provisions sets out improved procedures and rules for the seizure that are already in the Bill. It does not specify process of goods, including scope for regulations to be brought or demand the filling of quotas, and it is in keeping forward on a clear fee structure. with the aim to bring about a long-term shift in the Credit is due on both sides of the House for recognising present culture. It asks for awareness, intelligent decision that problem. Some of the Government’s proposals, in making, and encouragement for the best from every particular regarding banning the use of force against 403 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 404 the person, are to be commended, but, unfortunately, telecommunications and prisons. Do we really believe it that is where the congratulations should end. The previous is disproportionate for a person who has redress to an Government laid out the foundations of the Act with ombudsman over a phone bill disagreement also to have the intention of building on them. It was, and remains, redress to an ombudsman if their door is kicked down the Opposition’s position that the clarification of or their family are threatened by an aggressive bailiff? enforcement law should be backed by a robust independent The Minister also made the point in Committee that system of regulation. The enhanced certification regime some bailiff practice is already subject to the jurisdiction is a key thread of the Government’s package and was of the local government ombudsman. If ombudsman intended as an interim measure en route to this long-term action is appropriate for some complaints, why do the goal. The Government have not only stopped, but settled Government believe it is not appropriate for all complaints? halfway along that road and so are offering a bit of a In particular, why would they hold it disproportionate half-hearted solution. to ensure that the entire private bailiff sector, which New clause 7 provides for one small but central generates the vast majority of complaints, is covered, element in an independent regulatory system: an rather than just the public sector work? independent grievance process. The Government’s position We believe that an independent complaints procedure is that such a system is unnecessary, but we disagree, as is an important and necessary safeguard, and would did the majority of the advice sector respondents to the like to see it re-included in the Bill. An ombudsman can Department’s consultation. They do not believe that the provide objective redress, root out bad behaviour, publish in-house system of complaints in relation to enforcement data on good and bad practice, and suggest improvements. firms is objective or adequate. Rather than building on I should make it clear to the House, just as Baroness the foundations of the Act, the Government chose in Meacher made it clear in another place, that the legal Committee to knock down the progress that had been ombudsman is able and willing to take on that role, made and to force the removal of the new clause. which is compatible with other responsibilities of that In Committee, the Minister suggested that the vote office. This is a volatile area, and we would like the on that provision in the Lords was born out of frustration Government to commit to a robust complaints procedure. that the Government had not yet responded to its consultation on bailiff action. I wonder whether he will The Solicitor-General: Will the hon. Lady give way? now concede that support for the provision is born out of frustration that the Government have responded, but have done so disappointingly, and have prevented an Jenny Chapman: I was about to finish, but I will give effective and reasonable safeguard from being included. way. The Minister centred his argument on the premise that the Government’s proposals will make a robust The Solicitor-General: Under the Legal Services Act 2007, complaints procedure unnecessary. He said that things the legal ombudsman only investigates cases about the have “moved on” and that most of the reasons for service provided to the customer; it deals only with legal current complaints will be removed. It is not good services that have been badly provided. If we were to enough for the Government to say “We’ve dealt with say, “Oh well, let’s include bailiff services”, that would this and there will be fewer problems next year”. We do be very nice for the creditor, who would be able to not believe that. report to the legal services ombudsman, but it would Members across this House know what is facing not help the debtors. They are the people for whom the families in the months to come. In the next year, hundreds hon. Lady is speaking, but they would not be able to of families, including many working households, will be complain to the legal services ombudsman because a hit by the 1% uprating of social security, the bedroom service is not being provided to them. tax, cuts to working tax credit and many other austerity measures. I am not making a political point here; I am Jenny Chapman: It was not me who made that suggestion; just observing that that is the case. We predict that it came from the legal services ombudsman. So clearly many people will be pushed into tough times and will there is a way around this matter and the Minister may have to face bailiffs for the first time. wish to explore that a bit further. His intervention The Minister acknowledged in Committee that there shows that the Government are not going to do this, but will be cases where “things go wrong”. The Government’s we would like them to commit to a robust complaints consultation acknowledges that there is confusion over procedure to sort out the problems that our constituents who should deal with complaints against bailiffs, not face. They deserve access to a robust complaints procedure least among the victims. Citizens advice bureau guidance when things go wrong, as they too often do, so we hope for victims of aggressive action has to navigate the that hon. Members on both sides of the House will variety of factors that govern what complaints can be support our proposal. taken where, including the unhelpful truth that a victim might have to ask the aggressive agent where they should Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): I shall register a complaint. We should not tolerate that. speak briefly in support of a probing proposal, my new We do not hold with the Government’s arguments for clause 17. I listened carefully to the speech made by the removing the new clause. The Minister has stated that hon. Member for Darlington (Jenny Chapman), and I he believes it subjects the industry to over-burdensome entirely share and sympathise with the thrust of her regulation, and that the Government’s proposals offer a argument: we do need to make sure that the regulation more “measured and proportionate”response to concerns. of the behaviour of bailiffs is not just about certification; We simply disagree with that. Ombudsmen are not and the continuing behaviour of individual bailiffs does extraordinary in public life. They are pretty much the need to be monitored, tracked and adequately assessed, norm, and we have them in the fields of health, housing, so that regulations are adjusted to keep pace with local government, financial services, legal services, changing practices in debt collection. 405 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 406

[Mr Robert Buckland] Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Jenny We all know that debt collection is a sad fact of life Chapman) for her remarks in support of amendment that affects a large number of our constituents. We 100, which we have tabled along with other hon. Friends, have all, in our case loads, doubtless come across worrying and to the Solicitor-General for what he had to say in stories about abuses of power. It is right to acknowledge anticipation of my remarks. I look forward to his acceptance that the Government are moving, with their transformative of my amendment and to the other changes, which I agenda, to address large parts of the concerns that broadly endorse, to the 2005 arrangements for judicial Members rightly have. Using the existing legislation to appointments. create new regulations is a good step forward. Importantly, The Supreme Court of the United Kingdom has the strengthening of the certification process, in the 12 justices. Just one has been a woman—Baroness Hale. form of training and the like, is a valuable way forward, Towards the end of last year, three vacancies on the as is the creation of the new fixed-fee system. As I have Supreme Court bench arose. A special panel, as provided already said, that deals only with the point of certification by the Constitutional Reform Act 2005, was established and not with practice. We must be realistic and we must to fill those vacancies. I am quite sure that the panel acknowledge that taking a snapshot of the behaviour of applied itself to the highest standards for the selection individual bailiffs will not deal with many of the problems process. The candidates who were successful are all that beset people who are in debt but still deserve to be jurists of the highest quality. Their names were announced treated with respect. last month. All three are men. So this country’s highest court will, for the foreseeable future, continue to be composed of 11 men and one woman. Therein lies the 6.15 pm problem. My new clause takes a slightly different course from As the President of the Supreme Court, Lord Neuberger, the Opposition amendment. It seeks to build on existing said last year in evidence to the House of Lords Constitution structures in Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service Committee, and to use those mechanisms to create a system whereby “if…women are not less good judges than men, why are 80% or individuals who have been wronged can make complaints 90% of judges male? It suggests, purely on a statistical basis, that and seek redress of grievance. The grounds I have set we do not have the best people because there must be some out relate to behaviour that is disproportionate to the women out there who are better than the less good men who are debt and circumstances involved and to a situation judges.” where the debtor’s goods are insufficient in value to The figures are stark: the further up the judicial ladder satisfy the debt. Giving the court the discretion to stay you go, the fewer and fewer women there are to be orders made in prior proceedings is, I submit, a cost-effective, found. streamlined and appropriate way of building in the My hon. Friend the Member for Darlington referred extra check and balance that is needed in the system of to the important lecture that Baroness Hale gave recently. regulation. Baroness Hale set out the figures: My new clause does not stop there but goes on to “22.5% of the judges in the ordinary courts…are women and deal in subsection (2) with the discretion of the court. 4.2% are British minority ethnic…Only 26.6% of the upper Importantly, subsection (5) would give power to the tribunal judiciary are women, though 11% are BME.” Lord Chancellor to review data on complaints and When we get to the High Court, just 15% are women allow the regulatory framework to be updated when, as and 4.5% BME; 10% of Court of Appeal judges are a result of that review, a body of evidence demonstrates women; none is black or Asian. She said that that change is needed. There are some concerns that the “none of the five heads of division is a woman or BME; and in creation of such a system could lead to a flood of the Supreme Court there is still only me and the only ethnic applications that would mean that the debt enforcement minorities we have are the Scots and the Irish…The average”— system fell into some form of disrepute. I do not accept for judiciaries— that. I believe that the creation of such systems incentivises “across the countries in the Council of Europe is 52% men and the behaviour of bailiffs so that their standard of conduct 48% women. At 23% England and Wales is fourth from the becomes even better. That is the thrust of the Government’s bottom, followed only by Azerbaijan, Scotland and Armenia.” reforms and, I think, the combined will of Parliament. These days everyone—more or less—agrees with Lord We want to see a change of culture and a constant Neuberger’s sentiment that women are just as qualified striving for improvement. to do any job, including the top jobs, as are men. The My proposal would create a more streamlined procedure problem is that, for the judiciary, the system is simply than the ombudsman path. It is simple, clear and allows not delivering the equality of outcome that we all seek. individuals to have proper redress against bad bailiff It was supposed to do so. When the current statutory behaviour. I agree that challenging the certification of system of judicial appointments was established in 2005, bailiffs is important, but that path is hardly ever used. one of the arguments advanced for the new, independent Unless there is a concomitant increase in the number of Judicial Appointments Commission was that it would challenges to certification, I am worried that the system be able to advance the diversity of the judiciary in terms will not keep pace, however well intentioned the reforms both of gender and of ethnicity. are, with the change that so many of our constituents Initially, progress with that commission was frustratingly quite rightly demand. slow, as both I, as Lord Chancellor, and my permanent As I have said, my amendment is a probing amendment. secretary, Sir Suma Chakrabarti, repeatedly made clear I look forward to hearing the comments of my hon. to its then chair. I happily concede that there have been Friend the Solicitor-General in response to the arguments some more recent improvements, and I know of the outlined by me and others. personal commitment of the new chair, Chris Stephens, 407 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 408 to see the commission do better, and of the steps he is that we adopt similar measures of explicit positive taking. Those steps are necessary but, with respect to discrimination for the judiciary, although it may come Mr Stephens, they are not in my view sufficient. to that if we continue to trail badly in the league tables. Part of the problem has been the wording of the Canada adopted positive discrimination measures, which 2005 Act, which requires the Judicial Appointments made a big difference to representation on the bench, Commission to select solely “on merit”. I will come and it has certainly not affected the quality of the back to that loaded concept in a moment. The Bill seeks Canadian judiciary. to qualify “on merit”by a provision in part 2 of schedule 13 Instead, the amendments that I have tabled with my which essentially allows the commission, where it judges hon. Friends would put on the statute book provisions that there are that have been law in part of the United Kingdom for “two persons of equal merit”, nine years, and which are plainly working, as my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington set out. Amendment 100 to choose the woman, or the black or Asian candidate. is a direct lift from provisions of the Justice (Northern I am not cavilling, and that provision may help a Ireland) Act 2004. The Minister may say in his reply little, but some of this country’s much better legal brains that the Government are doing quite a lot, and urge us than me tell me that it can only help a little, since to look, for example, at paragraph 11 of schedule 13 on “merit” is likely to be narrowly defined for these purposes. page 224 of the Bill. The problem—although that measure Indeed, one of Lady Hale’s colleagues on the Supreme is better than other provisions—is that it requires the Court, Lord Sumption, has challenged the whole idea Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice to of equal merit. He was formerly a member of the “take such steps as that office-holder considers appropriate for Judicial Appointments Commission, and he said that the purpose of encouraging judicial diversity.” at the In other words, the test is entirely subjective, whereas as “upper end of the ability range there is usually clear water my hon. Friend said, our proposed provisions, which between every candidate once one looks at them in detail.” are already law, have been operated successfully by He went on: successive Governments, both Conservative and Labour, “If you dilute the principle of selecting only the most talented in Northern Ireland. As Lord Chancellor for Northern candidates by introducing criteria other than individual merit, Ireland until the transfer of judicial functions in 2009, I you will by definition end up with a bench on which there are operated those provisions, and they caused no difficulty fewer outstanding people. But there is a more serious problem at all. Instead of a subjective test, under the amendment even than that. It is the impact that the change would have on the duties on the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief applications.” Justice Happily, Lord Sumption’s view is not shared by Lady “would secure, so far as it is reasonably practicable…that appointments Hale, as her recent lecture made clear, nor, it would to listed judicial offices are…reflective of the community in seem, by the president of the Supreme Court, Lord England and Wales”. Neuberger, who, I believe, is on the side of light and They would also ensure that a range of persons who are whose frustration with the present outcomes shone reflective of that community can come forward for through in a recent interview he gave to The Guardian in those positions. which he dissected the concept of merit—that is my gloss, not his words—and discussed how loaded it could be in practice. He said of the appointment process: 6.30 pm “I’m not saying there is a subconscious bias…what worries me These provisions have worked, Northern Ireland having is that we may all be suffering from a subconscious bias which by been a back marker on judicial diversity. For the avoidance definition may be difficult to show or to prove.” of doubt, the problem identified by the Northern Ireland It might, he suggested, be a subconscious expectation of Judicial Appointments Commission was not principally that there was an under-representation of Catholics. It “having an image of a judge with…male-type qualities and a was that there was a gross under-representation of male appearance. I’m not saying we do have that but there’s a risk that we do and it’s difficult to know how to cater for it.” women. So from having been far behind us, Northern Ireland is now far ahead. According to the last figures I agree entirely. that I have seen for the judiciary in Northern Ireland, When I joined the House 34 years ago, just 57% were men and 43% were women—streets ahead of 19 Members—less than 3%—were women. Today, there our judiciary in England and Wales. Why? Because this are 143 women MPs, or 22% of the 650—seven times House—not the Northern Ireland Assembly—put into the proportion when I became an MP. The Labour the law provisions for the Northern Ireland judiciary. party has managed to increase its proportion of women Incidentally, back in 2004 the Joint Committee on MPs to over a third; the Conservatives are now up to Human Rights recommended that the same provisions 15%. The proportion of black and Asian MPs is now up be included in the 2005 Act for England and Wales, and to 4.2%. For the first time in my parliamentary career, it is a matter of great regret to me that my Government, the House of Commons is beginning to look more like though it was not me; I was abroad at the time— the society it represents, but the numbers are still not [Interruption.] I always say that; it is always true. It is a good enough. matter of great regret to me that my Government did We know two things. First, progress could not have not do that. The amendment is a serious one, moved been achieved without the special measures for women’s with serious purpose, and I hope we can hear from the selection pioneered by my party, and commendably Minister that it carries his serious approbation as well. adopted in modified form by the Conservative party. Secondly, there is absolutely no evidence that the quality Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): On a point of order, of women MPs, or of black and Asian MPs, is any less Mr Speaker. Have you had any message from the Minister than that of white men. I do not at this stage suggest for Europe that he would like to come along and make a 409 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 410

[Kate Hoey] chance without making it an objective standard. We are putting trust in them, under paragraph 11 of schedule 13, statement to Parliament on the decision of the to do the job. I believe that the current Lord Chief European Parliament today not to support the budget—to Justice takes that very seriously—I have discussed it throw out the budget that we in this Parliament asked to with him and he certainly gives that impression—as be cut? does the Lord Chancellor.

Mr Speaker: I have received no such indication from Mr Straw: I have the highest regard for the Lord a Minister. The hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) Chief Justice and, as it happens, for the Lord Chancellor, is a ready source of information. She has now enlightened so that is not the issue. Will the hon. Gentleman explain the House. I had not heard that news, but I imagine that something for me? Exactly the same arguments could it will now be well known to the Treasury Bench and her have been used with regard to the Northern Ireland remarks will very soon find their way to Ministers, so judiciary, because we were trusting the same Lord my advice to her is that she should remain alert for any Chancellor—the same person—until 2009, and the Lord developments that might arise. I thank her for what she Chief Justice of Northern Ireland is a man of the said. highest quality. Therefore, if these measures have not only been needed in Northern Ireland but have worked, The Solicitor-General: May I start where the right why is the hon. Gentleman moving on to say—I think hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) left off? I he is about to do so—that they are not needed in entirely accept that what has happened since 2005 has England and Wales? been very disappointing indeed. We had high hopes. I was involved in the debates at that time and we expected The Solicitor-General: What I am saying is that the that we would see far more women at the very top of the new provision was accepted in the other place, with judiciary than we have done. He mentioned one out wide acclaim—the Opposition thought that it was a of 12 in the Supreme Court. I believe it is four out of major move forward—and an agreement about the way 38 in the Court of Appeal. It is not acceptable and there forward was established, so it is perhaps wrong for this is no question but that more needs to be done. House simply to say, “Oh well. Let’s nudge it another As the right hon. Gentleman conceded to some extent, inch.” If Parliament is prepared to say that there will be we have done much in the Bill to try to achieve that, a legal duty on those officer holders to take those steps, starting with flexible working, which could make a that seems to me to be a step forward. I do not believe difference, and the tipping-point provisions where two that the right hon. Gentleman, when he was in that people are of an equal standard. There has been a long great role, would have taken it lightly if Parliament had debate in the legal profession and among judges about told him that he must take such steps as he considered exactly what merit means in this context. Lord Bingham appropriate for the purposes of encouraging diversity. and Lord Phillips previously said that it was the judicial qualities, plus what the needs of the Court were, which Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): I do not had to be put together to establish what the commission want to sound repetitious, because I know that this should be looking for. One of the needs of the Court is point has been made, but why is what is good for to have the wisdom of highly intelligent women who Northern Ireland not also good for the United Kingdom? have sat as judges for many years and who come to the role with the experience of women, which is, admittedly, The Solicitor-General: Of course, there are unique different in all parts of the House. We are very keen to circumstances in Northern Ireland, as we know, and see the position improved. indeed as we have discussed today in other contexts. There are one or two encouraging signs. For example, The point I am making is that an agreement was reached those entering the legal profession are now balanced in the other place on the way forward and I think that and there is some progress, as the right hon. Gentleman we should give it a chance. I agree with the right hon. said, at the lower levels. There is no question but that Member for Blackburn that there has been a disappointing more needs to be done. The Bill makes a start with the performance since 2005, and I am happy to make it flexible working and the tipping point. There was a clear from the Dispatch Box that I share his concerns great deal of discussion in the other place about how to about that. We have tried to do a good deal about it in try to make matters go forward faster, and it was the Bill. The other point I will make—I do not know accepted there that one way would be a statutory duty how far I can take this—is that we are about to see underpinning the leadership role of the Lord Chancellor appointments to the Court of Appeal and to very high and the Lord Chief Justice. That is why, as the right positions in the judiciary, and there are some very good hon. Gentleman said, paragraph 11 of schedule 13 candidates who are women, but we will have to see what provides that both office holders must take such steps as the outcome will be. they consider appropriate for the purposes of encouraging Turning to bailiff regulation, new clause 7 echoes an diversity. amendment that was agreed in the other place but later Of course, the right hon. Gentleman is correct that removed from the Bill in Committee. New clause 17 that is not the application of an objective standard. We proposes a role for the court in relation to every warrant are putting trust in the Lord Chief Justice and the Lord and provides for the judiciary to compile an annual Chancellor to take this matter seriously and come up report on bailiff complaints for the Lord Chancellor to with a plan for the steps they consider appropriate for consider. My hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon the purposes of encouraging diversity. For my part, (Mr Buckland) made a compelling argument on the given that we have not done that previously, and given need for a firm response to the misbehaviour of rogue that I trust those office holders to take it seriously and bailiffs and suggested that one way of doing so would pursue it vigorously, I am prepared to give them the be through the court and its procedures. The Government’s 411 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 412 approach, which I will come to shortly, is set out in the Jenny Chapman: The Solicitor-General will forgive response to the “Transforming Bailiff Action”consultation, me for saying that he is repeating himself. My point is which was published on 25 January. It sets out the that we want a simpler ombudsman service, under reforms that will tackle what we consider to be the root which there would be one ombudsman for complaints problems of the complaints about bailiffs. It introduces about bailiffs. That would be far simpler and I do not safeguards for debtors and, equally, allows creditors to know why the Solicitor-General feels the need to repeat collect money they are owed, which I think all parties his earlier comments, which have already been dealt agree is necessary. with. It remains our belief that the package of reforms offers the most effective and proportionate response to The Solicitor-General: The hon. Lady’s case is compelling the problem of aggressive bailiffs and that it will render in the sense that there are a lot of problems with bailiffs unnecessary some of the cost and bureaucracy inherent and their misbehaviour and that that needs to change. in the proposals of the hon. Member for Darlington There is cross-party support for six changes that will (Jenny Chapman) and the Opposition. It will be a new change the landscape, but she is saying, “Oh, we want world, if I may put it that way. one more thing,” but that one more thing happens to be half-baked legally and would not do the job, so I have to The Government’s reforms centre on part 3 of the make that point. Of course, it is wrong to repeat things Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007—the over and over again, but I am trying to get the hon. background is one of all-party consensus—and they do Lady to agree that hers is not a sensible proposal. six things. They remove antiquated, confusing laws and clarify what the powers of bailiffs are, so those powers will be known. Regulations that we will publish this Jenny Chapman: You are wrong. summer and aim to implement in April 2014 will set out what goods can and cannot be seized. There will also be The Solicitor-General: I have failed to persuade the a clear and fair charging regime. It is iniquitous for a hon. Lady, but I will certainly not make a concession. I bailiff to turn up at a door to collect three debts and hope she will forgive me in due course. I am sure she then demand three fees when he has made only one will. visit. Although we believe that the underlying causes of most, if not all, complaints will be dealt with by our Jenny Chapman: In the interests of moving the debate reforms, officials are working with the advice sector to along, I have made it clear that we do not disagree with consider once more the types of complaints received. the Government on any of those things. Our point They will work with them to ensure that they are relates to when things go wrong. If the Solicitor-General adequately addressed in the regulations, which are due could respond to that, perhaps we could make some in the summer. progress. The reforms are a significant step forward and it is worth giving them a chance. I know that the hon. The Solicitor-General: The point is that these things Member for Darlington knows that in her heart of have not been happening, but they will happen under hearts. We are confident that our reforms will have a the Government’s reforms. They will change the landscape. positive effect on bailiff action. It is time for action and That is why the word “transforming” is in the title of the something is now being done. The Bill responds to the consultation—they will transform things. The enhanced concerns that inspired new clause 7. My hon. Friend the certification and mandatory training will make a difference Member for South Swindon has pointed to some useful and we all agree that that is a good thing. The county powers that can be held in reserve. It may be that in due court certificate to practise, which a judge can withdraw course we will have to go that step further in court. We on complaint, and the offence of not having a certificate have given a commitment to review the reforms. That when attempting enforcement are powerful new remedies will happen one, three and, if necessary, five years after that did not exist before. their introduction. We are working with stakeholders to The hon. Lady mentioned the legal ombudsman. It is ensure that there is a robust framework. difficult to see how the system would work effectively The Government are being reasonable and pro-active, under her proposal. Eighty per cent. of the cases are so I ask the House to support the reforms. I urge the local council cases, so the local government ombudsman hon. Member for Darlington not to press new clause 7. will be available for complaint. That is a remedy, but the My hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon said hon. Lady is complicating things by suggesting that that new clause 17 was a probing amendment so I hope there should be another remedy on top of it. A certification that he will not press it. I say to the right hon. Member complaint is one possible route of complaint and strong for Blackburn that we are disappointed, but we are remedy, as are court procedures, which my hon. Friend doing a lot in the Bill. Is it not right to trust the Lord the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) has Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice, when they are mentioned, and the local government ombudsman. The given a statutory duty such as the one in the Bill, to hon. Lady also mentioned a whole host of internal come up with a plan that works? complaint schemes and she wants to put another scheme on top of them, but her proposal will not work legally. Amendment 22 agreed to. She is trying to patch her proposed scheme on to the Legal Services Act 2007, but the legal ombudsman Schedule 10 looks only into complaints about the service provided to the customer, and in these circumstances the customer is the creditor. It would be nice for the creditor to have THE FAMILY COURT an avenue of complaint, but that would not help the Amendments made: 10, page 166, line 12, after ‘court’ debtor. insert ‘and to be varied by that court’. 413 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 414

Amendment 11, page 167, line 15, leave out paragraph 8 ‘( ) For subsections (1A) to (1E) (powers of magistrates’ courts and insert— in England and Wales to vary registered orders) substitute— ‘8 (1) Section 4 (variation etc of orders registered in a magistrates’ “(1A) The family court may exercise the same powers in court) is amended as follows. relation to an order registered in the family court under this Part of this Act as are exercisable by the family court under section 1 (2) In subsection (1) (orders in relation to which section 4 of the Maintenance Enforcement Act 1991 in relation to a applies) for “orders registered in magistrates’ courts” substitute qualifying periodical maintenance order (within the meaning of “High Court orders registered in the family court”. that section) which has been made by the family court, including (3) In subsection (2)(a) (court of registration may vary rate of the power under subsection (7) of that section to revoke, suspend, payments specified by order)— revive or vary any means of payment order (within the meaning (a) for “court of registration” substitute “family court”, of that subsection) made by virtue of this subsection.”’. and Amendment 21, page 216, line 37, column2, at end (b) for “original court” substitute “High Court”. insert— (4) In subsection (2)(b) (general rule that variation of rate of ‘In Schedule 2, paragraph 3(3).’.—(Oliver Heald.) payments specified by registered order is to be by court of registration) for the words from “court of registration” to the end substitute “family court.” Schedule 13 (5) Omit subsections (2A) to (2C), (5A), (5B) and (7). (6) In subsection (4) (power of court of registration to remit JUDICIAL APPOINTMENTS application for variation of rate of payments to original court)— Amendment proposed: 100, page 224, line 42, at end (a) omit “it appears to the court to which”, insert (b) after “registered order” insert “and it appears to the ‘Each of the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice must family court”, at all times engage in a programme of action which is designed— (c) for “original court”, in both places, substitute “High (a) to secure, so far as it is reasonably practicable to do so, Court”, and that appointments to listed judicial offices are such (d) for “first-mentioned court” substitute “family court”. that those holding such offices are reflective of the community in England and Wales; (7) In subsection (5) (other circumstances in which original (b) to require the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief court has jurisdiction to vary rate of payments) for “original Justice of England and Wales, so far as it is reasonably court” substitute “High Court”. practicable to do so, to secure that a range of persons (8) In subsection (6A) (with the exception of power to make reflective of the community in England and Wales is provision as to means of payment, magistrates’ courts in England available for consideration by the Judicial Appointments and Wales have no power to vary certain orders made by Court of Commission whenever it is required to select a person Session or by High Court in Northern Ireland)— to be appointed, or recommended for appointment, (a) for the words before “variation” substitute “Although to a listed judicial office.’.—(Mr Straw.) such an order as is mentioned in this subsection may Question put, That the amendment be made. be varied under section 1 of the Maintenance Enforcement Act 1991 as applied by section 4A(2) of The House divided: Ayes 216, Noes 272. this Act, no application for any other”, Division No. 188] [6.46 pm (b) for “any court” substitute “the family court”, (c) for “that court” substitute “the family court”, and AYES (d) for “section 1(2)” substitute “sections 1(2) and 2(6A)” Abbott, Ms Diane Champion, Sarah (9) In subsection (6B) (no application to be made to a Abrahams, Debbie Chapman, Jenny magistrates’ court for variation of certain orders) for “any court” Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Clark, Katy substitute “the family court”.’. Alexander, Heidi Clarke, rh Mr Tom Amendment 12, page 167, line 36, leave out ‘or an Ali, Rushanara Clwyd, rh Ann officer of that court’. Allen, Mr Graham Coaker, Vernon Ashworth, Jonathan Coffey, Ann Amendment 13, page 167, line 39, leave out ‘or an Austin, Ian Connarty, Michael officer of that court’. Bain, Mr William Cooper, Rosie Amendment 14, page 177, line 37, leave out ‘or an Balls, rh Ed Cooper, rh Yvette officer of the court’. Banks, Gordon Corbyn, Jeremy Barron, rh Mr Kevin Crausby, Mr David Amendment 15, page 177, line 40, leave out ‘, or an Bayley, Hugh Creagh, Mary officer of the court,’. Beckett, rh Margaret Creasy, Stella Amendment 16, page 181, leave out lines 21 and 22. Begg, Dame Anne Cruddas, Jon Amendment 17, page 181, line 23, leave out ‘paragraphs 3 Benton, Mr Joe Cryer, John and’ and insert ‘paragraph’. Berger, Luciana Cunningham, Alex Blackman-Woods, Roberta Cunningham, Mr Jim Amendment 18, page 182, line 10, leave out ‘paragraphs 4 Blears, rh Hazel Curran, Margaret and 5’ and insert ‘paragraph 4’. Blenkinsop, Tom Danczuk, Simon Amendment 19, page 183, line 7, leave out ‘22,’ and Blomfield, Paul Darling, rh Mr Alistair insert ‘22(2),’.—(Oliver Heald.) Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben David, Wayne Brown, Lyn Davidson, Mr Ian Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Davies, Geraint Schedule 11 Brown, Mr Russell Denham, rh Mr John Buck, Ms Karen Dobson, rh Frank Burden, Richard Dodds, rh Mr Nigel TRANSFER OF JURISDICTION TO FAMILY COURT Byrne, rh Mr Liam Doran, Mr Frank Amendments made: 20, page 188, line 14, leave out Campbell, Mr Alan Doughty, Stephen sub-paragraphs (3) to (7) and insert— Campbell, Mr Ronnie Dugher, Michael 415 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 416

Durkan, Mark Marsden, Mr Gordon Twigg, Stephen Winnick, Mr David Eagle, Ms Angela McCabe, Steve Umunna, Mr Chuka Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Edwards, Jonathan McCann, Mr Michael Vaz, Valerie Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Elliott, Julie McCarthy, Kerry Walley, Joan Wright, David Ellman, Mrs Louise McClymont, Gregg Watts, Mr Dave Engel, Natascha McDonagh, Siobhain Whitehead, Dr Alan Tellers for the Ayes: Esterson, Bill McDonald, Andy Williams, Hywel Nic Dakin and Evans, Chris McDonnell, John Wilson, Phil Julie Hilling Farrelly, Paul McFadden, rh Mr Pat Field, rh Mr Frank McGovern, Alison NOES Fitzpatrick, Jim McGovern, Jim Flello, Robert McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Adams, Nigel Ellis, Michael Flint, rh Caroline McKechin, Ann Afriyie, Adam Ellison, Jane Flynn, Paul McKenzie, Mr Iain Aldous, Peter Ellwood, Mr Tobias Fovargue, Yvonne McKinnell, Catherine Amess, Mr David Elphicke, Charlie Francis, Dr Hywel Meacher, rh Mr Michael Bacon, Mr Richard Eustice, George Gapes, Mike Mearns, Ian Baker, Steve Evans, Graham Gardiner, Barry Miliband, rh David Baldry, Sir Tony Evans, Jonathan Gilmore, Sheila Miller, Andrew Baldwin, Harriett Evennett, Mr David Glindon, Mrs Mary Morden, Jessica Barclay, Stephen Fabricant, Michael Godsiff, Mr Roger Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Barker, rh Gregory Featherstone, Lynne Goggins, rh Paul Mudie, Mr George Baron, Mr John Foster, rh Mr Don Goodman, Helen Munn, Meg Bebb, Guto Fox,rhDrLiam Greatrex, Tom Murphy, rh Paul Beith, rh Sir Alan Freeman, George Green, Kate Murray, Ian Bellingham, Mr Henry Freer, Mike Greenwood, Lilian Nandy, Lisa Benyon, Richard Fullbrook, Lorraine Griffith, Nia Nash, Pamela Beresford, Sir Paul Fuller, Richard Gwynne, Andrew O’Donnell, Fiona Berry, Jake Gale, Sir Roger Hain, rh Mr Peter Onwurah, Chi Bingham, Andrew Garnier, Mark Hamilton, Mr David Owen, Albert Birtwistle, Gordon Gauke, Mr David Hamilton, Fabian Pearce, Teresa Blackwood, Nicola George, Andrew Hanson, rh Mr David Perkins, Toby Boles, Nick Gibb, Mr Nick Harris, Mr Tom Phillipson, Bridget Bone, Mr Peter Glen, John Havard, Mr Dai Pound, Stephen Brake, rh Tom Goldsmith, Zac Healey, rh John Powell, Lucy Brine, Steve Goodwill, Mr Robert Hendrick, Mark Qureshi, Yasmin Brokenshire, James Gove, rh Michael Hepburn, Mr Stephen Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Brooke, Annette Graham, Richard Hillier, Meg Reed, Mr Jamie Browne, Mr Jeremy Grant, Mrs Helen Hodge, rh Margaret Reed, Steve Bruce, Fiona Gray, Mr James Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reynolds, Emma Buckland, Mr Robert Grayling, rh Chris Hoey, Kate Reynolds, Jonathan Burns, Conor Green, rh Damian Hood, Mr Jim Riordan, Mrs Linda Burrowes, Mr David Greening, rh Justine Hopkins, Kelvin Robertson, Angus Burt, Lorely Griffiths, Andrew Howarth, rh Mr George Robertson, John Byles, Dan Gyimah, Mr Sam Hunt, Tristram Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Cable, rh Vince Hames, Duncan Jackson, Glenda Rotheram, Steve Cairns, Alun Hammond, Stephen James, Mrs Siân C. Roy, Lindsay Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hands, Greg Jamieson, Cathy Ruane, Chris Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harper, Mr Mark Jarvis, Dan Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Carmichael, Neil Harrington, Richard Johnson, rh Alan Sarwar, Anas Cash, Mr William Harris, Rebecca Johnson, Diana Sawford, Andy Chishti, Rehman Hart, Simon Jones, Graham Seabeck, Alison Chope, Mr Christopher Harvey, Sir Nick Jones, Helen Shannon, Jim Clappison, Mr James Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Jones, Mr Kevan Sharma, Mr Virendra Clark, rh Greg Hayes, Mr John Jones, Susan Elan Sheerman, Mr Barry Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heald, Oliver Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Sheridan, Jim Colvile, Oliver Heaton-Harris, Chris Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Shuker, Gavin Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hemming, John Keeley, Barbara Skinner, Mr Dennis Crockart, Mike Henderson, Gordon Kendall, Liz Slaughter, Mr Andy Crouch, Tracey Hendry, Charles Khan, rh Sadiq Smith, rh Mr Andrew Davey, rh Mr Edward Herbert, rh Nick Lammy, rh Mr David Smith, Angela Davies, Glyn Hinds, Damian Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, Nick Davis, rh Mr David Hoban, Mr Mark Leslie, Chris Smith, Owen de Bois, Nick Hollingbery, George Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Straw, rh Mr Jack Dinenage, Caroline Hollobone, Mr Philip Long, Naomi Stringer, Graham Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Holloway, Mr Adam Lucas, Ian Tami, Mark Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hopkins, Kris MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Thomas, Mr Gareth Dorries, Nadine Horwood, Martin Mactaggart, Fiona Thornberry, Emily Drax, Richard Howarth, Sir Gerald Mahmood, Mr Khalid Timms, rh Stephen Duddridge, James Howell, John Mahmood, Shabana Trickett, Jon Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hughes, rh Simon Malhotra, Seema Turner, Karl Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hurd, Mr Nick Mann, John Twigg, Derek Dunne, Mr Philip Jackson, Mr Stewart 417 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 418

Jenkin, Mr Bernard Phillips, Stephen Wilson, Mr Rob Young, rh Sir George Johnson, Gareth Pickles, rh Mr Eric Wilson, Sammy Johnson, Joseph Pincher, Christopher Wollaston, Dr Sarah Tellers for the Noes: Jones, Andrew Poulter, Dr Daniel Wright, Jeremy Karen Bradley and Jones, Mr Marcus Prisk, Mr Mark Wright, Simon Mark Hunter Kawczynski, Daniel Pugh, John Kirby, Simon Raab, Mr Dominic Question accordingly negatived. Laing, Mrs Eleanor Randall, rh Mr John Lamb, Norman Reckless, Mark Lancaster, Mark Redwood, rh Mr John 7pm Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rees-Mogg, Jacob Proceedings interrupted (Programme Order, this day). Latham, Pauline Reevell, Simon The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Questions necessary Laws, rh Mr David Reid, Mr Alan Leadsom, Andrea Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that Lee, Jessica Robathan, rh Mr Andrew time (Standing Order No. 83E). Leech, Mr John Robertson, rh Hugh Lefroy, Jeremy Rogerson, Dan Leigh, Mr Edward Rosindell, Andrew Schedule 13 Leslie, Charlotte Rudd, Amber Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rutley, David JUDICIAL APPOINTMENTS Lewis, Brandon Sanders, Mr Adrian Amendments made: 23, page 227, line 8, leave out Lewis, Dr Julian Sandys, Laura Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Scott, Mr Lee ‘Wales, of some other’and insert ‘a particular geographical’. Lilley, rh Mr Peter Selous, Andrew 24, page 227, line 11, at end insert— Lloyd, Stephen Shapps, rh Grant ‘6B The powers to make regulations under this Part of this Lopresti, Jack Skidmore, Chris Schedule are to be exercised with a view to ensuring, Lord, Jonathan Smith, Miss Chloe so far as may be practicable, that the Commissioners Loughton, Tim Smith, Henry who are lay members include at any time at least one Luff, Peter Smith, Julian person who appears to have special knowledge of Macleod, Mary Smith, Sir Robert Wales.”’. Main, Mrs Anne Soubry, Anna 25, page 230, line 13, leave out sub-paragraphs (2) Maude, rh Mr Francis Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline to (5). May, rh Mrs Theresa Spencer, Mr Mark Maynard, Paul Stanley, rh Sir John 26, page 230, line 45, leave out ‘subsections (4) to’ McCartney, Jason Stephenson, Andrew and insert ‘subsection (4) or’. McCartney, Karl Stevenson, John 27, page 231, line 28, leave out ‘Chief Justice’ and McIntosh, Miss Anne Stewart, Iain insert ‘Chancellor’. McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Streeter, Mr Gary McPartland, Stephen Stride, Mel 28, page 231, line 40, at end insert ‘, McVey, Esther Stunell, rh Andrew but only with any agreement of the Lord Chief Justice, or a Menzies, Mark Sturdy, Julian nominee of the Lord Chief Justice, that may be required by those Metcalfe, Stephen Swayne, rh Mr Desmond terms.’. Miller, rh Maria Swinson, Jo 29, page 232, line 5, leave out ‘, (5A)(a), (5B) or Mills, Nigel Swire, rh Mr Hugo (5C)(c)’ and insert ‘or (5A)(a)’. Milton, Anne Syms, Mr Robert Morgan, Nicky Tapsell, rh Sir Peter 30, page 232, line 33, leave out ‘Chief Justice’ and Morris, Anne Marie Thornton, Mike insert ‘Chancellor’. Morris, David Thurso, John 31, page 232, line 44, at end insert ‘, Morris, James Timpson, Mr Edward but only with any agreement of the Lord Chief Justice, or a Mosley, Stephen Tomlinson, Justin nominee of the Lord Chief Justice, that may be required by those Mowat, David Tredinnick, David terms.’. Mulholland, Greg Turner, Mr Andrew Mundell, rh David Tyrie, Mr Andrew 32, page 233, line 9, leave out ‘, (6A)(a), (6B) or Munt, Tessa Uppal, Paul (6C)(c)’ and insert ‘or (6A)(a)’. Murray, Sheryll Vara, Mr Shailesh 33, page 233, line 41, leave out ‘Chief Justice’ and Murrison, Dr Andrew Vickers, Martin insert ‘Chancellor’. Neill, Robert Walker, Mr Charles 34, page 234, line 4, at end insert ‘, Newton, Sarah Walker, Mr Robin Nokes, Caroline Wallace, Mr Ben but only with any agreement of the Lord Chief Justice, or a Norman, Jesse Ward, Mr David nominee of the Lord Chief Justice, that may be required by those Nuttall, Mr David Watkinson, Dame Angela terms.’. O’Brien, Mr Stephen Weatherley, Mike 35, page 234, line 13, leave out ‘, (5ZA)(a), (5ZB) or Offord, Dr Matthew Webb, Steve (5ZC)(c)’ and insert ‘or (5ZA)(a)’. Ollerenshaw, Eric Wharton, James 36, page 234, line 43, leave out ‘Chief Justice’ and Opperman, Guy Wheeler, Heather insert ‘Chancellor’. Ottaway, Richard White, Chris Parish, Neil Whittaker, Craig 37, page 235, line 5, at end insert ‘, Patel, Priti Whittingdale, Mr John but only with any agreement of the Lord Chief Justice, or a Paterson, rh Mr Owen Wiggin, Bill nominee of the Lord Chief Justice, that may be required by those Pawsey, Mark Willetts, rh Mr David terms.’. Percy, Andrew Williams, Mr Mark 38, page 235, line 13, leave out ‘, (3A)(a), (3B) or Perry, Claire Williamson, Gavin (3C)(c)’ and insert ‘or (3A)(a)’. 419 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 420

39, page 235, line 38, leave out ‘Chief Justice’ and New Clause 7 insert ‘Chancellor’. 40, page 236, line 2, at end insert ‘, ENFORCEMENT SERVICES ‘(1) The Legal Services Act 2007 is amended as follows. but only with any agreement of the Lord Chief Justice, or a nominee of the Lord Chief Justice, that may be required by those (2) After section 125 insert— terms.’. 125A (1) For the purposes of this Part (and sections 1, 21 and 41, page 236, line 11, leave out ‘, (4)(a), (4A) or 27 as they apply in relation to this Part)— (4B)(c)’ and insert ‘or (4)(a)’. (a) the Bailiffs and Enforcement Agents Council is to be treated as an approved regulator; 42, page 238, leave out line 9. (b) enforcement services are to be treated as a reserved 43, page 238, leave out line 11. legal activity; 44, page 238, line 12, leave out ‘7(3A)(a)’ and insert (c) a person authorised under sections 63 and 64 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act services is to ‘7(1)’. be treated as an authorised person in relation to that 45, page 238, leave out line 13. activity; 46, page 238, leave out line 19. (d) the Bailiffs and Enforcement Agents Council is to be treated as a relevant authorising body in relation to 47, page 238, line 19, at end insert— such a person, and ‘(3) In section 46 (delegation of functions by Lord Chief (e) regulations under the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Justice etc) after subsection (6) insert— Act 2007 and the National Standards for Enforcement Agents are to be treated as regulatory arrangements (7) In Schedules 2 to 4 “senior judge” means— of the Bailiffs and Enforcement Agents Council as an (a) the Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales, approved regulator. (2) For the purposes of sections 112 and 145 (as extended by (b) the Lord President of the Court of Session, this section), a person authorised under sections 63 and 64 of the (c) the Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland, or Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act, is to be treated as a “relevant authorised person” in relation to the Regulator.”.’.— (d) the Senior President of Tribunals.”’. (Jenny Chapman.) 48, page 239, line 3, leave out ‘Senior President of Brought up. Tribunals’ and insert ‘Lord Chancellor’. Question put, That the clause be added to the Bill. 49, page 239, line 14, at end insert ‘, The House divided: Ayes 210, Noes 286. but only with any agreement of a senior judge (see section 46(7)), or a nominee of a senior judge, that may be required by those Division No. 189] [7.1 pm terms.’. AYES 50, page 240, line 3, leave out ‘Senior President of Tribunals’ and insert ‘Lord Chancellor’. Abbott, Ms Diane Coaker, Vernon Abrahams, Debbie Coffey, Ann 51, page 240, line 14, at end insert ‘, Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Connarty, Michael but only with any agreement of a senior judge (see section 46(7)), Alexander, Heidi Cooper, Rosie or a nominee of a senior judge, that may be required by those Ali, Rushanara Cooper, rh Yvette terms.’. Allen, Mr Graham Corbyn, Jeremy Ashworth, Jonathan Crausby, Mr David 52, page 240, line 44, leave out ‘Senior President of Austin, Ian Creagh, Mary Tribunals’ and insert ‘Lord Chancellor’. Bain, Mr William Creasy, Stella 53, page 241, line 8, at end insert ‘, Balls, rh Ed Cruddas, Jon Banks, Gordon Cryer, John but only with any agreement of a senior judge (see section 46(7)), Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cunningham, Alex or a nominee of a senior judge, that may be required by those Bayley, Hugh Cunningham, Mr Jim terms.’. Beckett, rh Margaret Curran, Margaret 54, page 242, line 42, leave out ‘Senior President of Begg, Dame Anne Danczuk, Simon Tribunals’ and insert ‘Lord Chancellor’. Benton, Mr Joe Darling, rh Mr Alistair 55, page 243, line 7, at end insert ‘, Berger, Luciana David, Wayne Blackman-Woods, Roberta Davies, Geraint but only with any agreement of a senior judge (see section 46(7)), Blears, rh Hazel Denham, rh Mr John or a nominee of a senior judge, that may be required by those Blenkinsop, Tom Dobson, rh Frank terms.’. Blomfield, Paul Doran, Mr Frank 56, page 244, line 5, at end insert— Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Doughty, Stephen Brown, Lyn Dugher, Michael ‘(5) In the entry in Part 3 for Deputy Chief Coroner appointed Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Durkan, Mark under paragraph 2(5) of Schedule 8 to the Coroners and Justice Brown, Mr Russell Eagle, Ms Angela Act 2009, for “2(5)” substitute “2(6)”. Buck, Ms Karen Edwards, Jonathan (6) In paragraph 51 of Schedule 21 to the Coroners and Justice Burden, Richard Elliott, Julie Act 2009 (which inserts entries at the end of Part 3 of Schedule Byrne, rh Mr Liam Ellman, Mrs Louise 14 to the 2005 Act)— Campbell, Mr Alan Engel, Natascha (a) after “at the end of” insert “Table 1 of”, and Campbell, Mr Ronnie Esterson, Bill Champion, Sarah Evans, Chris (b) for “2(5)” substitute “2(6)”. Chapman, Jenny Farrelly, Paul (Accordingly, the power to commence that paragraph 51 Clark, Katy Fitzpatrick, Jim becomes a power to commence it as amended by this Clarke, rh Mr Tom Flello, Robert sub-paragraph.)’.—(Oliver Heald.) Clwyd, rh Ann Flint, rh Caroline 421 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 422

Flynn, Paul Meacher, rh Mr Michael NOES Fovargue, Yvonne Mearns, Ian Adams, Nigel Ellis, Michael Francis, Dr Hywel Miliband, rh David Afriyie, Adam Ellison, Jane Gapes, Mike Miller, Andrew Aldous, Peter Ellwood, Mr Tobias Gardiner, Barry Morden, Jessica Alexander, rh Danny Elphicke, Charlie Gilmore, Sheila Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Amess, Mr David Eustice, George Glindon, Mrs Mary Mudie, Mr George Bacon, Mr Richard Evans, Graham Godsiff, Mr Roger Munn, Meg Baker, Steve Evans, Jonathan Goggins, rh Paul Murphy, rh Paul Baldry, Sir Tony Evennett, Mr David Goodman, Helen Murray, Ian Baldwin, Harriett Fabricant, Michael Greatrex, Tom Nandy, Lisa Barclay, Stephen Featherstone, Lynne Green, Kate Nash, Pamela Barker, rh Gregory Field, Mark Greenwood, Lilian O’Donnell, Fiona Baron, Mr John Foster, rh Mr Don Griffith, Nia Onwurah, Chi Barwell, Gavin Fox,rhDrLiam Gwynne, Andrew Owen, Albert Bebb, Guto Francois, rh Mr Mark Hain, rh Mr Peter Pearce, Teresa Beith, rh Sir Alan Freeman, George Hamilton, Mr David Perkins, Toby Bellingham, Mr Henry Freer, Mike Hamilton, Fabian Phillipson, Bridget Benyon, Richard Fullbrook, Lorraine Hanson, rh Mr David Pound, Stephen Beresford, Sir Paul Fuller, Richard Harris, Mr Tom Powell, Lucy Berry, Jake Gale, Sir Roger Havard, Mr Dai Qureshi, Yasmin Bingham, Andrew Garnier, Mark Healey, rh John Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Birtwistle, Gordon Gauke, Mr David Hendrick, Mark Reed, Mr Jamie Blackwood, Nicola George, Andrew Hepburn, Mr Stephen Reed, Steve Boles, Nick Gibb, Mr Nick Hillier, Meg Reynolds, Emma Bone, Mr Peter Glen, John Hodge, rh Margaret Reynolds, Jonathan Bottomley, Sir Peter Goldsmith, Zac Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Riordan, Mrs Linda Bradley, Karen Goodwill, Mr Robert Hoey, Kate Robertson, John Brady, Mr Graham Gove, rh Michael Hood, Mr Jim Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Brake, rh Tom Graham, Richard Hopkins, Kelvin Rotheram, Steve Brine, Steve Grant, Mrs Helen Howarth, rh Mr George Roy, Lindsay Brokenshire, James Gray, Mr James Hunt, Tristram Ruane, Chris Brooke, Annette Grayling, rh Chris Jackson, Glenda Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Browne, Mr Jeremy Green, rh Damian James, Mrs Siân C. Sarwar, Anas Bruce, Fiona Greening, rh Justine Jamieson, Cathy Sawford, Andy Buckland, Mr Robert Griffiths, Andrew Jarvis, Dan Seabeck, Alison Burns, Conor Gyimah, Mr Sam Johnson, rh Alan Sharma, Mr Virendra Burrowes, Mr David Hames, Duncan Johnson, Diana Sheerman, Mr Barry Burt, Lorely Hammond, Stephen Jones, Graham Sheridan, Jim Byles, Dan Hancock, Matthew Jones, Helen Shuker, Gavin Cable, rh Vince Hands, Greg Jones, Mr Kevan Skinner, Mr Dennis Cairns, Alun Harper, Mr Mark Jones, Susan Elan Slaughter, Mr Andy Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harrington, Richard Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Smith, rh Mr Andrew Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harris, Rebecca Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Smith, Angela Carmichael, Neil Hart, Simon Keeley, Barbara Smith, Nick Cash, Mr William Harvey, Sir Nick Kendall, Liz Smith, Owen Chishti, Rehman Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Khan, rh Sadiq Straw, rh Mr Jack Chope, Mr Christopher Hayes, Mr John Lammy, rh Mr David Stringer, Graham Clappison, Mr James Heald, Oliver Lazarowicz, Mark Tami, Mark Clark, rh Greg Heaton-Harris, Chris Leslie, Chris Thomas, Mr Gareth Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hemming, John Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Thornberry, Emily Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Henderson, Gordon Lucas, Ian Timms, rh Stephen Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hendry, Charles Mactaggart, Fiona Trickett, Jon Collins, Damian Herbert, rh Nick Mahmood, Mr Khalid Turner, Karl Colvile, Oliver Hinds, Damian Mahmood, Shabana Twigg, Derek Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hoban, Mr Mark Malhotra, Seema Twigg, Stephen Crockart, Mike Hollingbery, George Mann, John Umunna, Mr Chuka Crouch, Tracey Hollobone, Mr Philip Marsden, Mr Gordon Vaz, Valerie Davey, rh Mr Edward Holloway, Mr Adam McCabe, Steve Walley, Joan Davies, Glyn Hopkins, Kris McCann, Mr Michael Davis, rh Mr David Horwood, Martin McCarthy, Kerry Watts, Mr Dave Whitehead, Dr Alan de Bois, Nick Howarth, Sir Gerald McClymont, Gregg Dinenage, Caroline Howell, John Williams, Hywel McDonagh, Siobhain Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hughes, rh Simon Williamson, Chris McDonald, Andy Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Hurd, Mr Nick Wilson, Phil McDonnell, John Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jackson, Mr Stewart Winnick, Mr David McFadden, rh Mr Pat Dorries, Nadine Jenkin, Mr Bernard McGovern, Alison Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Doyle-Price, Jackie Johnson, Gareth McGovern, Jim Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Drax, Richard Johnson, Joseph McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Wright, David Duddridge, James Jones, Andrew McKechin, Ann Tellers for the Ayes: Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jones, Mr Marcus McKenzie, Mr Iain Julie Hilling and Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Kawczynski, Daniel McKinnell, Catherine Nic Dakin Dunne, Mr Philip Kirby, Simon 423 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]13 MARCH 2013 Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] 424

Laing, Mrs Eleanor Neill, Robert Soubry, Anna Walker, Mr Robin Lamb, Norman Newton, Sarah Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Wallace, Mr Ben Lancaster, Mark Nokes, Caroline Spencer, Mr Mark Ward, Mr David Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Norman, Jesse Stanley, rh Sir John Watkinson, Dame Angela Latham, Pauline Nuttall, Mr David Stephenson, Andrew Weatherley, Mike Laws, rh Mr David O’Brien, Mr Stephen Stevenson, John Webb, Steve Leadsom, Andrea Offord, Dr Matthew Stewart, Iain Wharton, James Lee, Jessica Ollerenshaw, Eric Streeter, Mr Gary Wheeler, Heather Leech, Mr John Opperman, Guy Stride, Mel White, Chris Lefroy, Jeremy Ottaway, Richard Stunell, rh Andrew Whittaker, Craig Leslie, Charlotte Parish, Neil Sturdy, Julian Whittingdale, Mr John Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Patel, Priti Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Wiggin, Bill Lewis, Brandon Paterson, rh Mr Owen Swinson, Jo Willetts, rh Mr David Lewis, Dr Julian Pawsey, Mark Swire, rh Mr Hugo Williams, Mr Mark Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Percy, Andrew Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Williams, Roger Lilley, rh Mr Peter Perry, Claire Thornton, Mike Williamson, Gavin Lloyd, Stephen Phillips, Stephen Thurso, John Wilson, Mr Rob Long, Naomi Pickles, rh Mr Eric Timpson, Mr Edward Wilson, Sammy Lopresti, Jack Pincher, Christopher Tomlinson, Justin Wollaston, Dr Sarah Lord, Jonathan Poulter, Dr Daniel Tredinnick, David Wright, Jeremy Loughton, Tim Prisk, Mr Mark Truss, Elizabeth Wright, Simon Luff, Peter Pugh, John Turner, Mr Andrew Yeo, Mr Tim Main, Mrs Anne Raab, Mr Dominic Tyrie, Mr Andrew Young, rh Sir George Maude, rh Mr Francis Randall, rh Mr John Uppal, Paul May, rh Mrs Theresa Reckless, Mark Vara, Mr Shailesh Tellers for the Noes: Maynard, Paul Redwood, rh Mr John Vickers, Martin Mark Hunter and McCartney, Jason Rees-Mogg, Jacob Walker, Mr Charles Mr Robert Syms McCartney, Karl Reevell, Simon McIntosh, Miss Anne Reid, Mr Alan Question accordingly negatived. McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm McPartland, Stephen Robathan, rh Mr Andrew McVey, Esther Robertson, rh Hugh Schedule 15 Menzies, Mark Rogerson, Dan Metcalfe, Stephen Rosindell, Andrew DEALING NON-CUSTODIALLY WITH OFFENDERS Mills, Nigel Rudd, Amber Milton, Anne Rutley, David Amendment made: 110, page 268, line 24, at end Morgan, Nicky Sanders, Mr Adrian insert— Morris, Anne Marie Sandys, Laura ‘(5A) In a case where there is such a restorative justice requirement, Morris, David Scott, Mr Lee a person running the activity concerned must in doing that have Morris, James Selous, Andrew regard to any guidance that is issued, with a view to encouraging Mosley, Stephen Shannon, Jim good practice in connection with such an activity, by the Secretary Mowat, David Shapps, rh Grant of State.’.—(Anne Milton.) Mulholland, Greg Skidmore, Chris Mundell, rh David Smith, Miss Chloe Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned.— Munt, Tessa Smith, Henry (Anne Milton.) Murray, Sheryll Smith, Julian Murrison, Dr Andrew Smith, Sir Robert Bill to be further considered tomorrow. 425 13 MARCH 2013 Freedom of Speech: Members of 426 Parliament Freedom of Speech: Members of council official is an “ugly pig-faced fascist”; a constituent Parliament is condemned as “a paedophile”; and another who is now suffering mental health problems as a result is Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House taunted with the phrase, “Let’s hope his **** shrivels do now adjourn.—(Anne Milton.) up and drops off whilst he is suffering a horrible death at the hands of a nasty disease.” Elsewhere, he has 7.13 pm boasted about his trips to far-left rallies in the Czech Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): Republic; on social media, he details his dream dinner I am very grateful, particularly to you personally, guests, including Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot, and is Mr Speaker, for this opportunity to raise a matter in the pictured with his prized collection of over 300 edged House that relates to a criminal investigation that has weapons. He also describes a scene in the local council been conducted against me by Sussex police over the chamber drenched with blood; he is there with machine past six and a half months before being dropped, but gun in hand until he wakes up and realises it is only a which has implications for all hon. Members and how dream—much to his disappointment. we communicate with our constituents. Let me give a more graphic idea of what I am talking I am sure that I speak for all hon. Members when I about. Mr Francis has recently posted a photo-shopped say that we all appreciate our constituents—it is one of image of me taken when, as a Minister last year, I was the reasons we do our job—but I doubt that there are visiting a school in east London in support of the City many hon. Members without a tiny minority of constituents Year charity, except that now I have Nazi insignia on my who either by design or default try to make our lives jacket and I am toting a smoking gun in a playground hell. A very few think they have a divine right to be full of screaming, fleeing children. I will not read you gratuitously rude to MPs or other figures in the public the caption, Mr Speaker, but it is just one of many such eye, and some think they can be offensive because of tasteless and grossly offensive postings. These appear their own political allegiances—although I have never on a blog run by Mr Francis, previously masquerading had that problem with my own opposition locally, with under the pseudonym of “Lord Hardy Ha Ha”, with a whom I have always had a constructive relationship—and photograph of him wearing a terrorist-style balaclava. others have personal issues that make them obsessive. Despite complaints to Sussex police, these remain on the web. In the case of Mr Kieran Francis of Shoreham in my constituency, he has all three attributes, as a result of Last year, Mr Francis engaged in almost constant which he has worked tirelessly to try to make my life complaints against the local Adur district council, in hell, together with that of my staff at Westminster and respect of which he was a tenant of a council house and at my constituency office, local councillors, council had an allotment. The most prolific issue was on account officials and countless others. To cut a long story short, of his losing his allotment because of complaints about going back many years Mr Francis has sought my help his abusive behaviour against other allotment holders to promote formal complaints against the police for and his using human excrement on his compost heap. brutality against him; against the local hospital for not After a court case, which he lost, the council placed giving him the treatment he thinks he needs as a result Mr Francis on their “customer of concern” list—or of police brutality; against the Benefits Agency for “COC” list as Mr Francis proudly and loudly boasted. having the temerity to summon him for an assessment; On the internal document for the COC list that he against the Courts Service for not enabling him to obtained under freedom of information, under the section progress legal action; and against the local council and marked “description”he is referred to as “unkempt”—cue council officials for all manner of things. I am not aware another complaint from Mr Francis that Adur council that any of his complaints have ever been upheld on any should deign to refer to him as unkempt. substantive issues. He is a serial complainer with more After failing to get satisfaction from Adur council chips on his shoulder than McCain’s, and as someone and after one of his regular abusive visits to one of my who does not work and is on benefits, he has too much street surgeries, Mr Francis wrote to me. I investigated time on his hands, as well. and sent an e-mail back to my constituent, saying that When Mr Francis does not get his way, he becomes given that the dictionary definition of “unkempt” is abusive. He once stormed out of my surgery accusing “untrimmed, dishevelled and rough”, the council’s me of being “an effing Nazi”. He has attended my street description—not mine—struck me as “eminently accurate”. surgeries to harangue my local councillors and me. He Anyone who has seen a photograph of the pony-tailed, rings my office repeatedly to abuse my staff, despite shaggily bearded Mr Francis could not but concur. For having been told constantly that he should not contact good measure, and uniquely in almost 16 years of being my office, having reduced a former member of staff to a constituency MP—but probably unwisely—I let my tears when she was heavily pregnant. But of course true feelings get the better of me and referred to Mr Francis’s Mr Francis knows better. He also knows better than to latest whinges as self- serving nonsense. In place of the commit his abuse to paper, so last year he increasingly word “nonsense”, however, the word I used, which I took to social media, including his own blog, where took off Mr Francis’s own blog—one that you have terms beginning with the F word, the C word and the W given me special dispensation to use today, Mr Speaker— word directed at me and others are commonplace, along was “bollocks”. It was one of the tamer terms frequently with creatively doctored photographs. used against me and others by Mr Francis. I am referred to as “an arrogant, lying, racist Indeed, the word is often used figuratively as a noun arsehead”—one of the more moderate terms of endearment to mean “nonsense”, as an expletive following a minor that Mr Francis uses—and am likened to the perpetrators accident or misfortune, or as an adjective to mean of the holocaust. The cabinet of Adur council in my “poor quality” or “useless”. Conversely, the word also constituency is referred to as “the Führer council”; a figures in idiomatic phrases such as “the dog’s bollocks” 427 Freedom of Speech: Members of 13 MARCH 2013 Freedom of Speech: Members of 428 Parliament Parliament or “the bollocks”, referring to something that is admired, which he had taken down at the same time as making approved of or well-respected. Thank you to Wikipedia the complaint to the police, knowing that they were for that! Moreover, as Members may be aware, the self-incriminating. He is now claiming that his blog well-respected overseas aid charity ActionAid has been post-dated my e-mail. That is, of course, another of his running a high- profile and successful campaign called lies, and the police should have traced it through the “Bollocks to Poverty”. I therefore thought that I was on internet service provider. safe ground. Having suffered years of abuse at the At that point, anyone with any common sense could hands of Mr Francis, I thought it was about time to have seen that there was no basis to the case that had make the point that enough was enough, and that a been advanced by a serial complainer, well versed in proportionately robust reply was in order. Someone making malicious and vexatious complaints. The case needed to stand up to his self-indulgent time wasting could have been terminated at that stage. It would have that has cost the taxpayer thousands over the years. satisfied the procedures that sprang from the Macpherson What happened next and the reason for securing the report, under which alleged race incidents should be debate today—as well as for the national media publicity taken seriously and should be subject to at least an that has accompanied my case—has caused consternation. initial investigation. However, there was no remotely Within hours of receiving my e-mail, and before phone racial side to this case, and any offence in the language calls to my Westminster office and a foul-mouthed was small beer compared to what I and other victims of tirade at my researcher, Mr Francis contacted the police Mr Francis had been subjected to over many years. I claiming that I was guilty of an offence under the personally resent any suggestion that I am racist. Racism Malicious Communications Act 1988. A few days later, is an insidious cancer against which I have always I was contacted by a detective inspector from Sussex fought. Equally insidious, though, are the forces of police requesting a meeting to discuss a “sensitive issue”. political correctness that seem to have been brought to I responded immediately, saying that I was happy to bear in this instance, which can do so much damage to help in whatever way I could, and 48 hours later a good race relations and social harmony and which too discussion of a “sensitive issue” became a 90-minute often triumph over common sense. recorded interview under caution in Worthing police In this case, however, a full-blown investigation ensued, custody suite. lasting six and a half months. I had contact with at least I was presented with a disclosure document that had six separate officers who were involved, and a file was given rise to the interview, in which Mr Francis had then sent to the Crown Prosecution Service in December. claimed that the single e-mail that I had sent him All my Westminster office staff were interviewed, as qualified as a malicious communication because well as a former secretary who lives in Hampshire. We “Mr Francis states that he is of Romany Gypsy origin and feels trawled the archives for all copies of previous that the references made against him within the email are of a correspondence, which were eventually collected two racist nature and that the email contains insults of a grossly months later. Throughout that time, Mr Francis continued offensive nature.” to post abusive articles about me on his blog, while I So using the word “unkempt” is deemed racist, purely remained silent in order not to prejudice the case or be on the basis that a constituent with a grudge says that it seen trying to influence the outcome. is, and the police go along with that. Even though it When I put in my own complaint to Sussex Police came as a complete surprise to me, and indeed to the about some of these blogs being grossly offensive, my local council, that Mr Francis is of Romany Gypsy complaint was not taken up, and instead Mr Francis origin, especially as he has lived in a council property was warned to take down some of his posts and went for all the years I have dealt with him, since when has quiet for a while, but only a short while. When I pointed “unkempt” been a term associated with Romany Gypsies, out that I had made a formal complaint of my own and let alone a derogatory one? Surely, if anything, it would that the blog could provide material evidence, it transpired be the act of identifying the term with Romany Gypsies that the police had failed to take copies of the blog that could be construed as racist, but that was down to entries before they disappeared. They had lost their Mr Francis, not me. As for his taking gross offence at own police evidence and subsequently had to come to one of the more moderate terms used on his own blog, ask me if I had taken a copy, which, fortunately, I had. whatever happened to proportionality? Some people might take it as offensive—although I doubt that they Eventually the Crown Prosecution Service decided would take it as grossly offensive—but the likes of the there was no case to answer and informed the police. A constituent I have already described? 1 think not. further two weeks later, on 26 February, when the I was happy to help the police with their inquiries. It investigating chief inspector returned from his holiday, is absolutely right that all MPs should be treated no my secretary—not me—was eventually told I was in the differently from any of their constituents, notwithstanding clear. That came as a huge relief, after this whole case the occupational hazard facing us and others in public had been hanging over me and my family since August life that we are more high-profile targets for vexatious of last year. complaints. I have no problem with the fact that the Not surprisingly, Mr Speaker, since being told that rather embarrassed custody sergeant had to go through his complaint had no substance, Mr Francis has gone the formalities before the interview, asking whether I into overdrive of offensiveness. I gather that your office could read or write or had mental health problems; the has had the joy of being called by Mr Francis, as has the answers were yes and no in that order. I was happy to local and national press repeatedly, the chairman of the tell the police everything I knew about my constituent, Conservative party, the Prime Minister, assorted charities and to offer to hand over any correspondence that I had I am associated with and goodness knows who else. had with him over the years. In particular, I informed How did this happen, and could it happen again, if them of Mr Francis’s blog and Twitter account, which not to me, then to any other hon. Member? Clearly had given rise to the tone of my e-mail and both of there are local matters that I will be pursuing through 429 Freedom of Speech: Members of 13 MARCH 2013 Freedom of Speech: Members of 430 Parliament Parliament [Tim Loughton] I have always been a strong supporter of my police force. I have always had a good relationship with my the formal complaints process to Sussex Police, and I local officers, and I very much hope that that will shall lodge a complaint tomorrow. I had hoped that I continue, in all our interests, but this incident has severely could gain some answers at an informal meeting with knocked my confidence in whether the chief constable the chief constable that I requested last week. I would of Sussex and his senior management are working in also have been there taking up the cudgels if one of my the best interests of my constituents and the council tax constituents had fallen foul of a similar experience. I payers, who have financed this whole waste of police gave the chief constable a list of questions in advance, resources. to try to get to the bottom of exactly how I had been One of my constituents has already asked me to subjected to such an intensive, and intensively wasteful, supply her with a list of terms that she should avoid use of police resources. Yet without going into detail using in correspondence, for fear of having her shoulder about that confidential meeting, I was treated by Chief felt. What should any of us do when faced with a Constable Martin Richards not only as if I was the gratuitously offensive constituent in the future? We can subject of ongoing criminal investigations, but almost ignore them, but when they insist on coming back again as if I had actually been charged and found guilty. It and again with abuse against our staff and our colleagues was as if “plebgate” runs well beyond the confines of or hounding us on social media, do we not have a duty Whitehall. I was given a prepared list of one-sentence to stand up against bullies? Our constituents have the answers, effectively saying the investigation was dealt power to sack us at general elections—quite rightly so. with in an exemplary way.The chief constable is apparently We, alas, do not have the power to sack them. Perhaps I happy that everything was handled properly, so clearly should have taken out an injunction or restraining the same thing could happen again and again to me or order against Mr Francis in the past, but in almost anyone else. 16 years in this House I have never had to resort to such What had the police done to determine that Mr Francis measures. I would like to take this opportunity now, actually is of Romany Gypsy origin, and what specifically Mr Speaker, to put it on record that I will not be had caused offence to such a retiring violet? Who had responding to any communications from Mr Francis in authorised the investigation to carry on for this long? the future and my staff have been instructed to put the How many officers had been involved in the case, and phone down on him. I am sacking Mr Francis as my how much had it cost? All these questions were met constituent, and I hope that he gets the message without with a stone wall. To get any further, I would have to my having to resort to legal means. submit freedom of information requests to my own The bigger question for this House and for hon. local constabulary. Well, that I have done, as well as Members—I am delighted to see so many of them here submitting requests to the CPS and making a formal this evening—is how do we deal with the small minority complaint about the way the investigation was carried of constituents where a robust reply is the most appropriate? forward, the incompetence with which it was handled Outside this Chamber, unprotected by parliamentary by the police, and the failure of the chief constable of privilege, as my case starkly demonstrates, we now risk Sussex to exercise a modicum of common sense and a feel on our collar from a police force pandering to instead support the system. political correctness and unquestioningly taking the Not surprisingly, I have received a torrent of e-mails word of someone intent on lodging a vexatious and from around the country following the publicity about malicious allegation. While I hope that I will never my case. Interestingly, many have come from police experience another constituent as nasty as Mr Francis officers past and present, including senior ones from and will not feel the need to use the level of robust Sussex police. They are all aghast at my treatment, language that I felt proportionately offensive only in though not surprised. They agree with me that political this case, I cannot say that the same dilemma will not correctness seems to have taken a stranglehold in much happen again, because I still do not understand exactly of the decision making by too many senior police what the offence was that merited the investigation and officers, while common sense has gone out of the window. consideration of charges. By what warped yardstick One comment was simply: could I have been deemed racist? And how is using “Can we have our traditional police force back please?” someone else’s own language back at them “grossly offensive” one way but not mutually so? Another: What if you, Mr Speaker, were innocently to refer to “Is this not another indictment of the state of modern day Britain?” someone as “well kempt” whose religion demands that he should be fully bearded—would that be racist? Even Risk aversion has replaced common-sense judgments more unlikely, what if you were to praise someone as certain senior police do not want to do anything that famous for being proudly gay and out only for the might jeopardise their career with head office. The celebrity involved to be very much heterosexual—could Association of Chief Police Officers 10-point decision- you find yourself under criminal investigation for some making model has been junked. An inquiry process that form of inverted homophobia? Where will it all end, should be justified, accountable and proportionate has Mr Speaker? Are we to be issued with a manual of been ignored, and investigations have been stepped up words and phrases that we can or cannot use? Perhaps to a higher authority and ultimately the CPS for fear of we need a whole new section in “Erskine May”. Will making a decision that might reflect badly. this House and hon. Members in future be muted in If this can happen to an MP, it can happen to any of speaking their minds, ironically at a time when the our constituents. It is no way to run a police service. It is public and the media criticise politicians for not saying little wonder that just last week the Brighton Argus what they really mean more and for hiding behind reported on how low morale has sunk amongst Sussex obfuscation and spin? It is no longer good to be straight, police officers. Mr Speaker—oh dear, I may have done it again! 431 Freedom of Speech: Members of 13 MARCH 2013 Freedom of Speech: Members of 432 Parliament Parliament The fallout of my case goes far beyond the series of There have not been many cases to test the boundaries events and the one nightmare constituent that I have of privilege in that regard but the basic principles are described. It has implications not only for the way we clearly understood. It has been established that letters do our politics and the way we communicate with our from constituents to Members are not proceedings in constituents, but for the way we are all able to go about Parliament and it therefore follows that Members’ replies our business and be true to our beliefs. If the law needs to constituents are not proceedings either. Indeed, the changing, it is up to this House to change it. If police courts have separately determined that Members’ letters procedures need to be changed, it is up to the Home to Ministers are similarly not considered to be proceedings Secretary to change them. But if, as I suspect, we need in Parliament. However, the courts have regarded some society to change and to challenge political correctness, types of communication to a Member of Parliament by we all need to play a part in that. If MPs can fall foul of a constituent as enjoying qualified privilege in certain it, clearly anyone can and it is time we fought back. I am circumstances. For example, a Member who passes on a ready to don my gender- neutral, non-aggressive, culturally constituent’s concerns in good faith to the proper authority, sensitive armour for the crusade—I mean, secular such as a Minister, will not be protected by absolute expedition. Who is with me, Mr Speaker? privilege but is likely to be protected by qualified privilege. Qualified privilege might also apply to communications 7.32 pm with a link to parliamentary proceedings, such as a speech or parliamentary question, or those that relate The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom to a matter of public concern. That will depend on the Brake): I should like to begin by congratulating my hon. circumstances, but in their ordinary dealings with Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham constituents, Members of Parliament, like everyone (Tim Loughton) on securing this debate. I should say at else, should expect to be subject to the laws of the land, the outset that I am responding to the debate as the including that on malicious communication. As all Minister with responsibility for Government policy relating Members would agree, however, Members and constituents to parliamentary privilege. I know that he knows that I should expect the law to deal with matters proportionately. have no responsibility for the police and will not attempt to answer for the conduct of the Sussex police in I am not sure that my hon. Friend is making the case investigating an alleged offence of malicious communication for change and for extending parliamentary privilege to under the Malicious Communications Act 1988. These are all forms of communication between a Member and a indeed operational matters, but of course he will have constituent. The issue has been considered before, several noted that the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice times. The Joint Committee on Parliamentary Privilege, was present during the debate and will have taken away which considered the matter between 1998 and 1999, with him the telling remarks that my hon. Friend made. recommended that there should be no extension of parliamentary privilege to correspondence between MPs The House will have heard my hon. Friend’s description and Ministers. Conversely, the Joint Committee on the of events surrounding the investigation of the allegation Draft Defamation Bill in 2011 argued that the of malicious conduct and the subsequent advice by the Crown Prosecution Service that no further action be “the democratic process is unacceptably hindered by a lack of taken. Hon. Members can draw their own conclusions certainty and awareness among constituents about their right to engage in open and frank discussions with their Westminster about the merits of his constituent’s claims. I have to representative” say that I have sympathy, as I am sure all hon. Members here tonight will, with my hon. Friend’s remarks about and recommended that the amount of time and resources devoted to that “all forms of communication between constituents and their MP investigation, given the nature of the allegations. (acting in his or her official capacity as an MP)” My hon. Friend spoke about his freedom of speech should be protected by qualified privilege. as a Member of Parliament. I therefore want to address I am sure that my hon. Friend is aware of the Green my remarks to the protection of freedom of speech Paper on parliamentary privilege that the Government afforded to Members of Parliament by parliamentary published last April, which arose in part from concerns privilege. In doing so, I might help to inform a judgment that parliamentary privilege might be able to be used by as to whether this particular case has any implications MPs to avoid prosecution for offences relating to expenses, for the application of parliamentary privilege, or whether but also from a feeling that there might be scope usefully it is, as he said in his closing remarks, more an issue of to clarify the law in certain areas, including on the definition police practices and policy. of parliamentary proceedings and Select Committee Perhaps it would be helpful if I set out briefly how powers. On the issue of Members’ correspondence with the protection of our freedom of speech afforded constituents, the Green Paper set out the Government’s by parliamentary privilege extends to Members’ view that, on balance, it is preferable to let the courts correspondence with constituents. Freedom of speech determine the boundaries of privilege on a case-by-case for Members of Parliament is guaranteed by article 9 of basis than to introduce a statutory qualified privilege the Bill of Rights of 1689, but it provides absolute for MPs’ correspondence. To extend an absolute privilege protection only to proceedings in Parliament. The meaning to correspondence between MPs and constituents could of “proceedings” in that context is to an extent open to encourage malicious complaints to be made to MPs interpretation and I am not aware that the issue raised that are damaging to third parties. I am not aware that by my hon. Friend of privilege for a Member’s such an extension has been seriously advocated. correspondence with a constituent has ever been tested A Joint Committee is considering the issues raised in in the courts. The legal position is clear: the House has the Green Paper and we look forward to considering its never sought to assert that privilege should apply to conclusions on this and other issues, which are expected communications between Members and their constituents to be published in the next few weeks. I am sure that the or other members of the public. Committee will consider tonight’s debate and all the 433 Freedom of Speech: Members of 13 MARCH 2013 Freedom of Speech: Members of 434 Parliament Parliament [Tom Brake] meantime, I hope that he ensures that he works hard on having a constructive dialogue with his local police points raised by my hon. Friend carefully to see whether force. I was going to say, “continues to have a constructive they are pertinent. If Parliament collectively believes dialogue,” but I think perhaps to date that dialogue has that some injustice arises from the way the courts apply not been there in the way that he would have liked. the law, it is open to Parliament to change the law. Question put and agreed to. I do not see that the issue raised by my hon. Friend advances the case for any legislative action on parliamentary privilege, but we will consider the issue in the round 7.39 pm when we receive the Joint Committee’s report. In the House adjourned. 435 13 MARCH 2013 Deferred Divisions 436

Deferred Divisions Hinds, Damian Norman, Jesse Hoban, Mr Mark Nuttall, Mr David Hollingbery, George O’Brien, Mr Stephen LEGAL SERVICES Hollobone, Mr Philip Offord, Dr Matthew That the Conditional Fee Agreements Order 2013, which was Holloway, Mr Adam Ollerenshaw, Eric laid before this House on 21 January, be approved. Hopkins, Kris Opperman, Guy The House divided: Ayes 288, Noes 225. Howarth, Sir Gerald Ottaway, Richard Division No. 182] Howell, John Parish, Neil Hughes, rh Simon Patel, Priti Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Paterson, rh Mr Owen AYES Hunter, Mark Pawsey, Mark Adams, Nigel Dinenage, Caroline Huppert, Dr Julian Percy, Andrew Afriyie, Adam Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hurd, Mr Nick Perry, Claire Aldous, Peter Dorries, Nadine Javid, Sajid Phillips, Stephen Alexander, rh Danny Doyle-Price, Jackie Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pickles, rh Mr Eric Amess, Mr David Drax, Richard Johnson, Gareth Pincher, Christopher Baker, Steve Duddridge, James Johnson, Joseph Poulter, Dr Daniel Baldwin, Harriett Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jones, Andrew Prisk, Mr Mark Barclay, Stephen Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Mr Marcus Pritchard, Mark Barker, rh Gregory Dunne, Mr Philip Kawczynski, Daniel Pugh, John Baron, Mr John Ellis, Michael Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Raab, Mr Dominic Barwell, Gavin Ellison, Jane Kirby, Simon Randall, rh Mr John Bebb, Guto Elphicke, Charlie Knight, rh Mr Greg Reckless, Mark Beith, rh Sir Alan Evans, Graham Lamb, Norman Redwood, rh Mr John Bellingham, Mr Henry Evans, Jonathan Lancaster, Mark Rees-Mogg, Jacob Beresford, Sir Paul Evennett, Mr David Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reid, Mr Alan Berry, Jake Fabricant, Michael Latham, Pauline Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Bingham, Andrew Fallon, rh Michael Laws, rh Mr David Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Birtwistle, Gordon Farron, Tim Leadsom, Andrea Robertson, rh Hugh Blackwood, Nicola Featherstone, Lynne Lee, Jessica Rogerson, Dan Boles, Nick Field, Mark Leech, Mr John Rosindell, Andrew Bone, Mr Peter Foster, rh Mr Don Leigh, Mr Edward Rudd, Amber Bottomley, Sir Peter Fox,rhDrLiam Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rutley, David Bradley, Karen Francois, rh Mr Mark Lewis, Brandon Sanders, Mr Adrian Brady, Mr Graham Freeman, George Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sandys, Laura Brake, rh Tom Freer, Mike Lloyd, Stephen Scott, Mr Lee Bray, Angie Fullbrook, Lorraine Lopresti, Jack Selous, Andrew Brazier, Mr Julian Fuller, Richard Lord, Jonathan Shapps, rh Grant Brine, Steve Garnier, Sir Edward Loughton, Tim Shepherd, Sir Richard Brokenshire, James Garnier, Mark Luff, Peter Simpson, Mr Keith Brooke, Annette Gauke, Mr David Macleod, Mary Skidmore, Chris Browne, Mr Jeremy George, Andrew Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Miss Chloe Bruce, Fiona Gibb, Mr Nick Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Henry Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Glen, John May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Julian Buckland, Mr Robert Goldsmith, Zac Maynard, Paul Smith, Sir Robert Burns, Conor Goodwill, Mr Robert McCartney, Jason Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Burrowes, Mr David Gove, rh Michael McCartney, Karl Spencer, Mr Mark Burt, Lorely Graham, Richard McIntosh, Miss Anne Stanley, rh Sir John Byles, Dan Grant, Mrs Helen McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stephenson, Andrew Cable, rh Vince Gray, Mr James McPartland, Stephen Stevenson, John Cairns, Alun Grayling, rh Chris McVey, Esther Stewart, Iain Cameron, rh Mr David Greening, rh Justine Menzies, Mark Streeter, Mr Gary Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Mercer, Patrick Stride, Mel Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Griffiths, Andrew Metcalfe, Stephen Stunell, rh Andrew Carmichael, Neil Gyimah, Mr Sam Miller, rh Maria Sturdy, Julian Carswell, Mr Douglas Hames, Duncan Mills, Nigel Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Cash, Mr William Hammond, rh Mr Philip Milton, Anne Swinson, Jo Chishti, Rehman Hammond, Stephen Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Swire, rh Mr Hugo Clappison, Mr James Hancock, Matthew Morgan, Nicky Syms, Mr Robert Clark, rh Greg Hands, Greg Morris, Anne Marie Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Harper, Mr Mark Morris, David Teather, Sarah Coffey, Dr Thérèse Harrington, Richard Morris, James Thornton, Mike Collins, Damian Harris, Rebecca Mosley, Stephen Thurso, John Colvile, Oliver Hart, Simon Mowat, David Timpson, Mr Edward Cox, Mr Geoffrey Harvey, Sir Nick Mulholland, Greg Tomlinson, Justin Crabb, Stephen Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mundell, rh David Tredinnick, David Crockart, Mike Hayes, Mr John Munt, Tessa Truss, Elizabeth Crouch, Tracey Heald, Oliver Murray, Sheryll Turner, Mr Andrew Davey, rh Mr Edward Heaton-Harris, Chris Murrison, Dr Andrew Tyrie, Mr Andrew Davies, Glyn Hemming, John Neill, Robert Uppal, Paul Davis, rh Mr David Henderson, Gordon Newton, Sarah Vara, Mr Shailesh de Bois, Nick Hendry, Charles Nokes, Caroline Vickers, Martin 437 Deferred Divisions13 MARCH 2013 Deferred Divisions 438

Walker, Mr Charles Willetts, rh Mr David Johnson, Diana Perkins, Toby Walker, Mr Robin Williams, Mr Mark Jones, Graham Phillipson, Bridget Wallace, Mr Ben Williams, Roger Jones, Helen Pound, Stephen Watkinson, Dame Angela Williams, Stephen Jones, Mr Kevan Powell, Lucy Weatherley, Mike Williamson, Gavin Jones, Susan Elan Qureshi, Yasmin Webb, Steve Wilson, Mr Rob Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Wharton, James Wollaston, Dr Sarah Joyce, Eric Reed, Mr Jamie Wheeler, Heather Wright, Jeremy Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Reevell, Simon White, Chris Wright, Simon Keeley, Barbara Reynolds, Emma Whittaker, Craig Yeo, Mr Tim Khan, rh Sadiq Reynolds, Jonathan Wiggin, Bill Young, rh Sir George Lammy, rh Mr David Riordan, Mrs Linda Lazarowicz, Mark Ritchie, Ms Margaret NOES Leslie, Chris Robertson, John Lewis, Mr Ivan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Abbott, Ms Diane Denham, rh Mr John Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Rotheram, Steve Abrahams, Debbie Dobbin, Jim Long, Naomi Roy, Mr Frank Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Dobson, rh Frank Love, Mr Andrew Roy, Lindsay Alexander, Heidi Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lucas, Caroline Ruane, Chris Ali, Rushanara Doran, Mr Frank Lucas, Ian Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Allen, Mr Graham Doughty, Stephen Mactaggart, Fiona Sarwar, Anas Ashworth, Jonathan Dowd, Jim Mahmood, Mr Khalid Sawford, Andy Austin, Ian Dromey, Jack Mahmood, Shabana Seabeck, Alison Bailey, Mr Adrian Dugher, Michael Malhotra, Seema Shannon, Jim Bain, Mr William Durkan, Mark Mann, John Sharma, Mr Virendra Balls, rh Ed Eagle, Ms Angela Marsden, Mr Gordon Sheerman, Mr Barry Banks, Gordon Eagle, Maria McCabe, Steve Sheridan, Jim Barron, rh Mr Kevin Edwards, Jonathan McCann, Mr Michael Shuker, Gavin Bayley, Hugh Elliott, Julie McCarthy, Kerry Simpson, David Beckett, rh Margaret Ellman, Mrs Louise McClymont, Gregg Skinner, Mr Dennis Begg, Dame Anne Engel, Natascha McCrea, Dr William Slaughter, Mr Andy Benton, Mr Joe Evans, Chris McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, Angela Berger, Luciana Farrelly, Paul McDonald, Andy Smith, Nick Blackman-Woods, Roberta Fitzpatrick, Jim McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Smith, Owen Blears, rh Hazel Flint, rh Caroline McDonnell, John Straw, rh Mr Jack Blenkinsop, Tom Flynn, Paul McFadden, rh Mr Pat Stringer, Graham Blomfield, Paul Fovargue, Yvonne McGovern, Alison Tami, Mark Blunkett, rh Mr David Francis, Dr Hywel McGovern, Jim Thomas, Mr Gareth Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Gapes, Mike McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Trickett, Jon Brennan, Kevin Gardiner, Barry McKechin, Ann Turner, Karl Brown, Lyn Gilmore, Sheila McKenzie, Mr Iain Twigg, Derek Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Glass, Pat McKinnell, Catherine Brown, Mr Russell Glindon, Mrs Mary Twigg, Stephen Meale, Sir Alan Umunna, Mr Chuka Bryant, Chris Godsiff, Mr Roger Mearns, Ian Vaz, Valerie Buck, Ms Karen Goggins, rh Paul Miliband, rh David Walley, Joan Burden, Richard Goodman, Helen Miller, Andrew Watts, Mr Dave Burnham, rh Andy Greatrex, Tom Morden, Jessica Whitehead, Dr Alan Campbell, Mr Alan Green, Kate Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Campbell, Mr Ronnie Greenwood, Lilian Munn, Meg Williams, Hywel Champion, Sarah Griffith, Nia Murphy, rh Mr Jim Williamson, Chris Chapman, Jenny Gwynne, Andrew Murphy, rh Paul Wilson, Phil Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hain, rh Mr Peter Murray, Ian Wilson, Sammy Clwyd, rh Ann Hamilton, Mr David Nash, Pamela Winnick, Mr David Coaker, Vernon Hamilton, Fabian O’Donnell, Fiona Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Coffey, Ann Hanson, rh Mr David Onwurah, Chi Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Cooper, Rosie Havard, Mr Dai Owen, Albert Wright, David Cooper, rh Yvette Healey, rh John Corbyn, Jeremy Hendrick, Mark Question accordingly agreed to. Crausby, Mr David Hermon, Lady Creagh, Mary Hillier, Meg Cruddas, Jon Hilling, Julie RATING AND VALUATION Cryer, John Hodge, rh Margaret That the draft Non-Domestic Rating (Levy and Safety Net) Cunningham, Alex Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Regulations 2013, which were laid before this House on 14 February, Cunningham, Mr Jim Hoey, Kate be approved. Cunningham, Sir Tony Hood, Mr Jim The House divided: Ayes 286, Noes 223. Curran, Margaret Hopkins, Kelvin Division No. 183] Dakin, Nic Howarth, rh Mr George Danczuk, Simon Hunt, Tristram AYES Darling, rh Mr Alistair Irranca-Davies, Huw David, Wayne James, Mrs Siân C. Adams, Nigel Amess, Mr David Davidson, Mr Ian Jamieson, Cathy Afriyie, Adam Baker, Steve Davies, Geraint Jarvis, Dan Aldous, Peter Baldwin, Harriett De Piero, Gloria Johnson, rh Alan Alexander, rh Danny Barclay, Stephen 439 Deferred Divisions13 MARCH 2013 Deferred Divisions 440

Barker, rh Gregory Foster, rh Mr Don Lewis, Brandon Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Baron, Mr John Fox,rhDrLiam Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Robertson, rh Hugh Barwell, Gavin Francois, rh Mr Mark Lloyd, Stephen Rogerson, Dan Bebb, Guto Freeman, George Lopresti, Jack Rosindell, Andrew Beith, rh Sir Alan Freer, Mike Lord, Jonathan Rudd, Amber Bellingham, Mr Henry Fullbrook, Lorraine Loughton, Tim Rutley, David Beresford, Sir Paul Fuller, Richard Luff, Peter Sanders, Mr Adrian Berry, Jake Garnier, Sir Edward Macleod, Mary Sandys, Laura Bingham, Andrew Garnier, Mark Main, Mrs Anne Scott, Mr Lee Birtwistle, Gordon Gauke, Mr David Maude, rh Mr Francis Selous, Andrew Blackwood, Nicola Gibb, Mr Nick May, rh Mrs Theresa Shapps, rh Grant Boles, Nick Glen, John Maynard, Paul Shepherd, Sir Richard Bone, Mr Peter Goldsmith, Zac McCartney, Jason Simpson, Mr Keith Bottomley, Sir Peter Goodwill, Mr Robert McCartney, Karl Skidmore, Chris Bradley, Karen Gove, rh Michael McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Miss Chloe Brady, Mr Graham Graham, Richard McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Henry Brake, rh Tom Grant, Mrs Helen McPartland, Stephen Smith, Julian Bray, Angie Gray, Mr James McVey, Esther Smith, Sir Robert Brazier, Mr Julian Grayling, rh Chris Menzies, Mark Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Brine, Steve Greening, rh Justine Mercer, Patrick Spencer, Mr Mark Brokenshire, James Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Metcalfe, Stephen Stanley, rh Sir John Brooke, Annette Griffiths, Andrew Miller, rh Maria Stephenson, Andrew Browne, Mr Jeremy Gyimah, Mr Sam Mills, Nigel Stevenson, John Bruce, Fiona Hames, Duncan Milton, Anne Stewart, Iain Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Streeter, Mr Gary Buckland, Mr Robert Hammond, Stephen Morgan, Nicky Stride, Mel Burns, Conor Hancock, Matthew Morris, Anne Marie Stunell, rh Andrew Burrowes, Mr David Hands, Greg Morris, David Sturdy, Julian Burt, Lorely Harper, Mr Mark Morris, James Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Byles, Dan Harrington, Richard Mosley, Stephen Swinson, Jo Cable, rh Vince Harris, Rebecca Mowat, David Swire, rh Mr Hugo Cairns, Alun Hart, Simon Mulholland, Greg Syms, Mr Robert Cameron, rh Mr David Harvey, Sir Nick Mundell, rh David Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Munt, Tessa Teather, Sarah Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hayes, Mr John Murray, Sheryll Thornton, Mike Carmichael, Neil Heald, Oliver Murrison, Dr Andrew Thurso, John Carswell, Mr Douglas Heaton-Harris, Chris Neill, Robert Timpson, Mr Edward Cash, Mr William Hemming, John Newton, Sarah Tomlinson, Justin Chishti, Rehman Henderson, Gordon Nokes, Caroline Tredinnick, David Clappison, Mr James Hendry, Charles Norman, Jesse Truss, Elizabeth Clark, rh Greg Hinds, Damian Nuttall, Mr David Turner, Mr Andrew Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hoban, Mr Mark O’Brien, Mr Stephen Tyrie, Mr Andrew Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hollingbery, George Offord, Dr Matthew Uppal, Paul Collins, Damian Hollobone, Mr Philip Ollerenshaw, Eric Vara, Mr Shailesh Colvile, Oliver Holloway, Mr Adam Opperman, Guy Vickers, Martin Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hopkins, Kris Ottaway, Richard Walker, Mr Charles Crabb, Stephen Howarth, Sir Gerald Parish, Neil Walker, Mr Robin Crockart, Mike Howell, John Patel, Priti Wallace, Mr Ben Crouch, Tracey Hughes, rh Simon Paterson, rh Mr Owen Watkinson, Dame Angela Davey, rh Mr Edward Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Pawsey, Mark Weatherley, Mike Davies, Glyn Hunter, Mark Percy, Andrew Webb, Steve Davis, rh Mr David Huppert, Dr Julian Perry, Claire Wharton, James de Bois, Nick Hurd, Mr Nick Phillips, Stephen Wheeler, Heather Dinenage, Caroline Javid, Sajid Pickles, rh Mr Eric White, Chris Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pincher, Christopher Whittaker, Craig Dorries, Nadine Johnson, Gareth Poulter, Dr Daniel Wiggin, Bill Doyle-Price, Jackie Johnson, Joseph Prisk, Mr Mark Willetts, rh Mr David Duddridge, James Jones, Andrew Pritchard, Mark Williams, Mr Mark Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jones, Mr Marcus Pugh, John Williams, Roger Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Kawczynski, Daniel Raab, Mr Dominic Williams, Stephen Dunne, Mr Philip Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Randall, rh Mr John Williamson, Gavin Ellis, Michael Kirby, Simon Reckless, Mark Wilson, Mr Rob Ellison, Jane Knight, rh Mr Greg Redwood, rh Mr John Wollaston, Dr Sarah Elphicke, Charlie Lamb, Norman Rees-Mogg, Jacob Wright, Jeremy Evans, Graham Lancaster, Mark Reevell, Simon Wright, Simon Evans, Jonathan Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reid, Mr Alan Yeo, Mr Tim Evennett, Mr David Latham, Pauline Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Young, rh Sir George Fabricant, Michael Laws, rh Mr David Fallon, rh Michael Leadsom, Andrea NOES Farron, Tim Lee, Jessica Abbott, Ms Diane Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Featherstone, Lynne Leigh, Mr Edward Abrahams, Debbie Alexander, Heidi Field, Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver 441 Deferred Divisions13 MARCH 2013 Deferred Divisions 442

Ali, Rushanara Flint, rh Caroline McDonnell, John Ruane, Chris Allen, Mr Graham Flynn, Paul McFadden, rh Mr Pat Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Ashworth, Jonathan Fovargue, Yvonne McGovern, Alison Sarwar, Anas Austin, Ian Francis, Dr Hywel McGovern, Jim Sawford, Andy Bailey, Mr Adrian Gapes, Mike McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Seabeck, Alison Bain, Mr William Gardiner, Barry McKechin, Ann Shannon, Jim Balls, rh Ed Gilmore, Sheila McKenzie, Mr Iain Sharma, Mr Virendra Banks, Gordon Glass, Pat McKinnell, Catherine Sheerman, Mr Barry Barron, rh Mr Kevin Glindon, Mrs Mary Meale, Sir Alan Sheridan, Jim Bayley, Hugh Godsiff, Mr Roger Mearns, Ian Shuker, Gavin Beckett, rh Margaret Goggins, rh Paul Miliband, rh David Simpson, David Begg, Dame Anne Goodman, Helen Miller, Andrew Skinner, Mr Dennis Benton, Mr Joe Greatrex, Tom Morden, Jessica Slaughter, Mr Andy Berger, Luciana Green, Kate Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Smith, Angela Blackman-Woods, Roberta Greenwood, Lilian Munn, Meg Smith, Nick Blears, rh Hazel Griffith, Nia Murphy, rh Mr Jim Smith, Owen Blenkinsop, Tom Gwynne, Andrew Murphy, rh Paul Straw, rh Mr Jack Blomfield, Paul Hain, rh Mr Peter Murray, Ian Stringer, Graham Blunkett, rh Mr David Hamilton, Mr David Nash, Pamela Tami, Mark Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hamilton, Fabian O’Donnell, Fiona Thomas, Mr Gareth Brennan, Kevin Hanson, rh Mr David Onwurah, Chi Trickett, Jon Brown, Lyn Havard, Mr Dai Owen, Albert Turner, Karl Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Healey, rh John Perkins, Toby Twigg, Derek Brown, Mr Russell Hendrick, Mark Phillipson, Bridget Twigg, Stephen Bryant, Chris Hermon, Lady Pound, Stephen Umunna, Mr Chuka Buck, Ms Karen Hillier, Meg Powell, Lucy Vaz, Valerie Burden, Richard Hilling, Julie Qureshi, Yasmin Walley, Joan Burnham, rh Andy Hodge, rh Margaret Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Watts, Mr Dave Campbell, Mr Alan Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reed, Mr Jamie Whitehead, Dr Alan Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hoey, Kate Reynolds, Emma Champion, Sarah Hood, Mr Jim Reynolds, Jonathan Williams, Hywel Chapman, Jenny Hopkins, Kelvin Riordan, Mrs Linda Williamson, Chris Clarke, rh Mr Tom Howarth, rh Mr George Ritchie, Ms Margaret Wilson, Phil Clwyd, rh Ann Hunt, Tristram Robertson, John Wilson, Sammy Coaker, Vernon Irranca-Davies, Huw Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Winnick, Mr David Coffey, Ann James, Mrs Siân C. Rotheram, Steve Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Cooper, Rosie Jamieson, Cathy Roy, Mr Frank Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Cooper, rh Yvette Jarvis, Dan Roy, Lindsay Wright, David Corbyn, Jeremy Johnson, rh Alan Crausby, Mr David Johnson, Diana Question accordingly agreed to. Creagh, Mary Jones, Graham Cruddas, Jon Jones, Helen Cryer, John Jones, Mr Kevan TAX CREDITS Cunningham, Alex Jones, Susan Elan That the draft Tax Credits Up-rating, etc. Regulations 2013, Cunningham, Mr Jim Jowell, rh Dame Tessa which were laid before this House on 7 February, be approved. Cunningham, Sir Tony Joyce, Eric The House divided: Ayes 286, Noes 228. Curran, Margaret Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Dakin, Nic Keeley, Barbara Division No. 184] Danczuk, Simon Khan, rh Sadiq Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lammy, rh Mr David AYES David, Wayne Lazarowicz, Mark Adams, Nigel Bradley, Karen Davidson, Mr Ian Leslie, Chris Afriyie, Adam Brady, Mr Graham Davies, Geraint Lewis, Mr Ivan Aldous, Peter Brake, rh Tom De Piero, Gloria Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Alexander, rh Danny Bray, Angie Denham, rh Mr John Long, Naomi Amess, Mr David Brazier, Mr Julian Dobbin, Jim Love, Mr Andrew Baker, Steve Brine, Steve Dobson, rh Frank Lucas, Caroline Baldwin, Harriett Brokenshire, James Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lucas, Ian Barclay, Stephen Brooke, Annette Doran, Mr Frank Mactaggart, Fiona Barker, rh Gregory Browne, Mr Jeremy Doughty, Stephen Mahmood, Mr Khalid Baron, Mr John Bruce, Fiona Dowd, Jim Mahmood, Shabana Barwell, Gavin Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Dromey, Jack Malhotra, Seema Bebb, Guto Buckland, Mr Robert Dugher, Michael Mann, John Beith, rh Sir Alan Burns, Conor Eagle, Ms Angela Marsden, Mr Gordon Bellingham, Mr Henry Burrowes, Mr David Eagle, Maria McCabe, Steve Beresford, Sir Paul Burt, Lorely Edwards, Jonathan McCann, Mr Michael Berry, Jake Byles, Dan Elliott, Julie McCarthy, Kerry Bingham, Andrew Cable, rh Vince Ellman, Mrs Louise McClymont, Gregg Birtwistle, Gordon Cairns, Alun Engel, Natascha McCrea, Dr William Blackwood, Nicola Cameron, rh Mr David Evans, Chris McDonagh, Siobhain Boles, Nick Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Farrelly, Paul McDonald, Andy Bone, Mr Peter Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Fitzpatrick, Jim McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Bottomley, Sir Peter Carmichael, Neil 443 Deferred Divisions13 MARCH 2013 Deferred Divisions 444

Carswell, Mr Douglas Heald, Oliver Murray, Sheryll Smith, Sir Robert Cash, Mr William Heaton-Harris, Chris Murrison, Dr Andrew Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Chishti, Rehman Hemming, John Neill, Robert Spencer, Mr Mark Clappison, Mr James Henderson, Gordon Newton, Sarah Stanley, rh Sir John Clark, rh Greg Hendry, Charles Nokes, Caroline Stephenson, Andrew Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hinds, Damian Norman, Jesse Stevenson, John Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hoban, Mr Mark Nuttall, Mr David Stewart, Iain Collins, Damian Hollingbery, George O’Brien, Mr Stephen Streeter, Mr Gary Colvile, Oliver Hollobone, Mr Philip Offord, Dr Matthew Stride, Mel Cox, Mr Geoffrey Holloway, Mr Adam Ollerenshaw, Eric Stunell, rh Andrew Crabb, Stephen Hopkins, Kris Opperman, Guy Sturdy, Julian Crockart, Mike Howarth, Sir Gerald Ottaway, Richard Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Crouch, Tracey Howell, John Parish, Neil Swinson, Jo Davey, rh Mr Edward Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Patel, Priti Swire, rh Mr Hugo Davies, Glyn Hunter, Mark Paterson, rh Mr Owen Syms, Mr Robert Davis, rh Mr David Huppert, Dr Julian Pawsey, Mark Tapsell, rh Sir Peter de Bois, Nick Hurd, Mr Nick Percy, Andrew Thornton, Mike Dinenage, Caroline Javid, Sajid Perry, Claire Thurso, John Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jenkin, Mr Bernard Phillips, Stephen Timpson, Mr Edward Dorries, Nadine Johnson, Gareth Pickles, rh Mr Eric Tomlinson, Justin Doyle-Price, Jackie Johnson, Joseph Pincher, Christopher Tredinnick, David Duddridge, James Jones, Andrew Poulter, Dr Daniel Truss, Elizabeth Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jones, Mr Marcus Prisk, Mr Mark Turner, Mr Andrew Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Kawczynski, Daniel Pritchard, Mark Tyrie, Mr Andrew Dunne, Mr Philip Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pugh, John Uppal, Paul Ellis, Michael Kirby, Simon Raab, Mr Dominic Vara, Mr Shailesh Ellison, Jane Knight, rh Mr Greg Randall, rh Mr John Vickers, Martin Elphicke, Charlie Lamb, Norman Reckless, Mark Walker, Mr Charles Evans, Graham Lancaster, Mark Redwood, rh Mr John Walker, Mr Robin Evans, Jonathan Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rees-Mogg, Jacob Wallace, Mr Ben Evennett, Mr David Latham, Pauline Reevell, Simon Watkinson, Dame Angela Fabricant, Michael Laws, rh Mr David Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Weatherley, Mike Fallon, rh Michael Leadsom, Andrea Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Webb, Steve Farron, Tim Lee, Jessica Robertson, rh Hugh Wharton, James Featherstone, Lynne Leech, Mr John Rogerson, Dan Wheeler, Heather Field, Mark Leigh, Mr Edward Rosindell, Andrew White, Chris Foster, rh Mr Don Leslie, Charlotte Rudd, Amber Whittaker, Craig Fox,rhDrLiam Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rutley, David Wiggin, Bill Francois, rh Mr Mark Lewis, Brandon Sanders, Mr Adrian Willetts, rh Mr David Freeman, George Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sandys, Laura Williams, Mr Mark Freer, Mike Lloyd, Stephen Scott, Mr Lee Williams, Roger Fullbrook, Lorraine Lopresti, Jack Selous, Andrew Williams, Stephen Fuller, Richard Lord, Jonathan Shapps, rh Grant Williamson, Gavin Garnier, Sir Edward Loughton, Tim Shepherd, Sir Richard Wilson, Mr Rob Garnier, Mark Luff, Peter Simpson, Mr Keith Wollaston, Dr Sarah Gauke, Mr David Macleod, Mary Skidmore, Chris Wright, Jeremy George, Andrew Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Miss Chloe Wright, Simon Gibb, Mr Nick Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Henry Yeo, Mr Tim Glen, John May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Julian Young, rh Sir George Goldsmith, Zac Maynard, Paul Goodwill, Mr Robert McCartney, Jason NOES Gove, rh Michael McCartney, Karl Graham, Richard McIntosh, Miss Anne Abbott, Ms Diane Blenkinsop, Tom Grant, Mrs Helen McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Abrahams, Debbie Blomfield, Paul Gray, Mr James McPartland, Stephen Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Blunkett, rh Mr David Grayling, rh Chris McVey, Esther Alexander, Heidi Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Greening, rh Justine Menzies, Mark Ali, Rushanara Brennan, Kevin Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Mercer, Patrick Allen, Mr Graham Brown, Lyn Griffiths, Andrew Metcalfe, Stephen Ashworth, Jonathan Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Gyimah, Mr Sam Miller, rh Maria Austin, Ian Brown, Mr Russell Hames, Duncan Mills, Nigel Bailey, Mr Adrian Bryant, Chris Hammond, rh Mr Philip Milton, Anne Bain, Mr William Buck, Ms Karen Hammond, Stephen Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Balls, rh Ed Burden, Richard Hancock, Matthew Morgan, Nicky Banks, Gordon Burnham, rh Andy Hands, Greg Morris, Anne Marie Barron, rh Mr Kevin Campbell, Mr Alan Harper, Mr Mark Morris, David Bayley, Hugh Campbell, Mr Ronnie Harrington, Richard Morris, James Beckett, rh Margaret Champion, Sarah Harris, Rebecca Mosley, Stephen Begg, Dame Anne Chapman, Jenny Hart, Simon Mowat, David Benton, Mr Joe Clarke, rh Mr Tom Harvey, Sir Nick Mulholland, Greg Berger, Luciana Clwyd, rh Ann Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mundell, rh David Blackman-Woods, Roberta Coaker, Vernon Hayes, Mr John Munt, Tessa Blears, rh Hazel Coffey, Ann 445 Deferred Divisions13 MARCH 2013 Deferred Divisions 446

Cooper, Rosie Jamieson, Cathy Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Tami, Mark Cooper, rh Yvette Jarvis, Dan Rotheram, Steve Thomas, Mr Gareth Corbyn, Jeremy Johnson, rh Alan Roy, Mr Frank Trickett, Jon Crausby, Mr David Johnson, Diana Roy, Lindsay Turner, Karl Creagh, Mary Jones, Graham Ruane, Chris Twigg, Derek Cruddas, Jon Jones, Helen Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Twigg, Stephen Cryer, John Jones, Mr Kevan Sarwar, Anas Umunna, Mr Chuka Cunningham, Alex Jones, Susan Elan Sawford, Andy Vaz, Valerie Cunningham, Mr Jim Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Seabeck, Alison Walley, Joan Cunningham, Sir Tony Joyce, Eric Shannon, Jim Watts, Mr Dave Curran, Margaret Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sharma, Mr Virendra Weir, Mr Mike Dakin, Nic Keeley, Barbara Sheerman, Mr Barry Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Danczuk, Simon Khan, rh Sadiq Sheridan, Jim Whitehead, Dr Alan Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lammy, rh Mr David Shuker, Gavin Williams, Hywel David, Wayne Lazarowicz, Mark Simpson, David Williamson, Chris Davidson, Mr Ian Leslie, Chris Skinner, Mr Dennis Wilson, Phil Davies, Geraint Lewis, Mr Ivan Slaughter, Mr Andy Wilson, Sammy De Piero, Gloria Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Smith, Angela Winnick, Mr David Denham, rh Mr John Long, Naomi Smith, Nick Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Dobbin, Jim Love, Mr Andrew Smith, Owen Wishart, Pete Dobson, rh Frank Lucas, Caroline Straw, rh Mr Jack Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lucas, Ian Stringer, Graham Wright, David Doran, Mr Frank MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Doughty, Stephen Mactaggart, Fiona Question accordingly agreed to. Dowd, Jim Mahmood, Mr Khalid Dromey, Jack Mahmood, Shabana Dugher, Michael Malhotra, Seema TRANSPORT Durkan, Mark Mann, John That the draft Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Eagle, Ms Angela Marsden, Mr Gordon Order 2013, which was laid before this House on 19 December Eagle, Maria McCabe, Steve 2012, be approved. Edwards, Jonathan McCann, Mr Michael The House divided: Ayes 289, Noes 224. Elliott, Julie McCarthy, Kerry Ellman, Mrs Louise McClymont, Gregg Division No. 185] Engel, Natascha McCrea, Dr William Evans, Chris McDonagh, Siobhain AYES Farrelly, Paul McDonald, Andy Adams, Nigel Byles, Dan Fitzpatrick, Jim McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Afriyie, Adam Cairns, Alun Flint, rh Caroline McDonnell, John Aldous, Peter Cameron, rh Mr David Flynn, Paul McFadden, rh Mr Pat Alexander, rh Danny Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Fovargue, Yvonne McGovern, Alison Amess, Mr David Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Francis, Dr Hywel McGovern, Jim Baker, Steve Carmichael, Neil Gapes, Mike McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Baldwin, Harriett Carswell, Mr Douglas Gardiner, Barry McKechin, Ann Barclay, Stephen Chishti, Rehman Gilmore, Sheila McKenzie, Mr Iain Barker, rh Gregory Clappison, Mr James Glass, Pat McKinnell, Catherine Baron, Mr John Clark, rh Greg Glindon, Mrs Mary Meale, Sir Alan Barwell, Gavin Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Godsiff, Mr Roger Mearns, Ian Bebb, Guto Coffey, Dr Thérèse Goggins, rh Paul Miliband, rh David Beith, rh Sir Alan Collins, Damian Goodman, Helen Miller, Andrew Bellingham, Mr Henry Colvile, Oliver Greatrex, Tom Morden, Jessica Beresford, Sir Paul Cox, Mr Geoffrey Green, Kate Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Berry, Jake Crabb, Stephen Greenwood, Lilian Munn, Meg Bingham, Andrew Crockart, Mike Griffith, Nia Murphy, rh Mr Jim Birtwistle, Gordon Crouch, Tracey Gwynne, Andrew Murphy, rh Paul Blackwood, Nicola Davey, rh Mr Edward Hain, rh Mr Peter Murray, Ian Boles, Nick Davies, Glyn Hamilton, Mr David Nash, Pamela Bone, Mr Peter Davis, rh Mr David Hamilton, Fabian O’Donnell, Fiona Bottomley, Sir Peter de Bois, Nick Hanson, rh Mr David Onwurah, Chi Bradley, Karen Dinenage, Caroline Havard, Mr Dai Owen, Albert Brady, Mr Graham Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Healey, rh John Perkins, Toby Brake, rh Tom Dorries, Nadine Hendrick, Mark Phillipson, Bridget Bray, Angie Doyle-Price, Jackie Hillier, Meg Pound, Stephen Brazier, Mr Julian Duddridge, James Hilling, Julie Powell, Lucy Brine, Steve Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hodge, rh Margaret Qureshi, Yasmin Brokenshire, James Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Brooke, Annette Dunne, Mr Philip Hoey, Kate Reed, Mr Jamie Browne, Mr Jeremy Edwards, Jonathan Hood, Mr Jim Reynolds, Emma Bruce, Fiona Ellis, Michael Hopkins, Kelvin Reynolds, Jonathan Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Ellison, Jane Howarth, rh Mr George Riordan, Mrs Linda Buckland, Mr Robert Elphicke, Charlie Hunt, Tristram Ritchie, Ms Margaret Burns, Conor Eustice, George Irranca-Davies, Huw Robertson, Angus Burrowes, Mr David Evans, Graham James, Mrs Siân C. Robertson, John Burt, Lorely Evans, Jonathan 447 Deferred Divisions13 MARCH 2013 Deferred Divisions 448

Evennett, Mr David Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reevell, Simon Thornton, Mike Fabricant, Michael Latham, Pauline Reid, Mr Alan Thurso, John Fallon, rh Michael Laws, rh Mr David Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Timpson, Mr Edward Farron, Tim Leadsom, Andrea Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Tomlinson, Justin Featherstone, Lynne Lee, Jessica Robertson, rh Hugh Tredinnick, David Field, Mark Leech, Mr John Rogerson, Dan Truss, Elizabeth Foster, rh Mr Don Leigh, Mr Edward Rosindell, Andrew Turner, Mr Andrew Fox,rhDrLiam Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rudd, Amber Tyrie, Mr Andrew Francois, rh Mr Mark Lewis, Brandon Rutley, David Uppal, Paul Freeman, George Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sanders, Mr Adrian Vara, Mr Shailesh Freer, Mike Lloyd, Stephen Sandys, Laura Vickers, Martin Fullbrook, Lorraine Lopresti, Jack Scott, Mr Lee Walker, Mr Charles Fuller, Richard Lord, Jonathan Selous, Andrew Walker, Mr Robin Garnier, Sir Edward Loughton, Tim Shapps, rh Grant Wallace, Mr Ben Garnier, Mark Luff, Peter Shepherd, Sir Richard Watkinson, Dame Angela Gauke, Mr David Macleod, Mary Simpson, Mr Keith Weatherley, Mike George, Andrew Main, Mrs Anne Skidmore, Chris Webb, Steve Gibb, Mr Nick Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Miss Chloe Weir, Mr Mike Glen, John May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Henry Wharton, James Goldsmith, Zac Maynard, Paul Smith, Julian Wheeler, Heather Goodwill, Mr Robert McCartney, Jason Smith, Sir Robert White, Chris Gove, rh Michael McCartney, Karl Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Whittaker, Craig Graham, Richard McIntosh, Miss Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Wiggin, Bill Grant, Mrs Helen McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stephenson, Andrew Willetts, rh Mr David Gray, Mr James McPartland, Stephen Stevenson, John Williams, Hywel Grayling, rh Chris McVey, Esther Stewart, Iain Williams, Mr Mark Greening, rh Justine Menzies, Mark Streeter, Mr Gary Williams, Roger Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Mercer, Patrick Stride, Mel Griffiths, Andrew Metcalfe, Stephen Stunell, rh Andrew Williams, Stephen Gyimah, Mr Sam Miller, rh Maria Sturdy, Julian Williamson, Gavin Hames, Duncan Mills, Nigel Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Wilson, Mr Rob Hammond, rh Mr Philip Milton, Anne Swinson, Jo Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hammond, Stephen Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Swire, rh Mr Hugo Wright, Jeremy Hancock, Matthew Morgan, Nicky Syms, Mr Robert Wright, Simon Hands, Greg Morris, Anne Marie Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Yeo, Mr Tim Harper, Mr Mark Morris, David Teather, Sarah Young, rh Sir George Harrington, Richard Morris, James Harris, Rebecca Mosley, Stephen NOES Hart, Simon Mowat, David Harvey, Sir Nick Mulholland, Greg Abbott, Ms Diane Campbell, Mr Ronnie Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mundell, rh David Abrahams, Debbie Champion, Sarah Hayes, Mr John Munt, Tessa Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Chapman, Jenny Heald, Oliver Murray, Sheryll Alexander, Heidi Clarke, rh Mr Tom Heaton-Harris, Chris Murrison, Dr Andrew Ali, Rushanara Clwyd, rh Ann Hemming, John Neill, Robert Allen, Mr Graham Coaker, Vernon Henderson, Gordon Newton, Sarah Ashworth, Jonathan Coffey, Ann Hendry, Charles Nokes, Caroline Austin, Ian Cooper, Rosie Hinds, Damian Norman, Jesse Bailey, Mr Adrian Cooper, rh Yvette Hoban, Mr Mark Nuttall, Mr David Bain, Mr William Corbyn, Jeremy Hollingbery, George O’Brien, Mr Stephen Balls, rh Ed Crausby, Mr David Hollobone, Mr Philip Offord, Dr Matthew Banks, Gordon Creagh, Mary Holloway, Mr Adam Ollerenshaw, Eric Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cruddas, Jon Hopkins, Kris Opperman, Guy Bayley, Hugh Cryer, John Horwood, Martin Ottaway, Richard Beckett, rh Margaret Cunningham, Alex Howarth, Sir Gerald Parish, Neil Begg, Dame Anne Cunningham, Mr Jim Howell, John Patel, Priti Benton, Mr Joe Cunningham, Sir Tony Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Paterson, rh Mr Owen Berger, Luciana Dakin, Nic Hunter, Mark Pawsey, Mark Blackman-Woods, Roberta Danczuk, Simon Huppert, Dr Julian Percy, Andrew Blears, rh Hazel Darling, rh Mr Alistair Hurd, Mr Nick Perry, Claire Blenkinsop, Tom David, Wayne Javid, Sajid Phillips, Stephen Blomfield, Paul Davidson, Mr Ian Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pickles, rh Mr Eric Blunkett, rh Mr David Davies, Geraint Johnson, Gareth Pincher, Christopher Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben De Piero, Gloria Johnson, Joseph Poulter, Dr Daniel Brennan, Kevin Denham, rh Mr John Jones, Andrew Prisk, Mr Mark Brown, Lyn Dobbin, Jim Jones, Mr Marcus Pritchard, Mark Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Dobson, rh Frank Kawczynski, Daniel Pugh, John Brown, Mr Russell Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Raab, Mr Dominic Bryant, Chris Doran, Mr Frank Kirby, Simon Randall, rh Mr John Buck, Ms Karen Doughty, Stephen Knight, rh Mr Greg Reckless, Mark Burden, Richard Dowd, Jim Lamb, Norman Redwood, rh Mr John Burnham, rh Andy Dromey, Jack Lancaster, Mark Rees-Mogg, Jacob Campbell, Mr Alan Dugher, Michael 449 Deferred Divisions13 MARCH 2013 Deferred Divisions 450

Durkan, Mark Howarth, rh Mr George McFadden, rh Mr Pat Ruane, Chris Eagle, Ms Angela Hunt, Tristram McGovern, Alison Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Eagle, Maria Irranca-Davies, Huw McGovern, Jim Sarwar, Anas Elliott, Julie James, Mrs Siân C. McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Sawford, Andy Ellman, Mrs Louise Jamieson, Cathy McKechin, Ann Seabeck, Alison Engel, Natascha Jarvis, Dan McKenzie, Mr Iain Shannon, Jim Evans, Chris Johnson, rh Alan McKinnell, Catherine Sharma, Mr Virendra Farrelly, Paul Johnson, Diana Meale, Sir Alan Sheerman, Mr Barry Fitzpatrick, Jim Jones, Graham Mearns, Ian Sheridan, Jim Flint, rh Caroline Jones, Helen Miliband, rh David Shuker, Gavin Flynn, Paul Jones, Mr Kevan Miller, Andrew Simpson, David Fovargue, Yvonne Jones, Susan Elan Morden, Jessica Skinner, Mr Dennis Francis, Dr Hywel Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Slaughter, Mr Andy Gapes, Mike Joyce, Eric Munn, Meg Smith, Angela Gardiner, Barry Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Murphy, rh Mr Jim Smith, Nick Gilmore, Sheila Keeley, Barbara Murphy, rh Paul Smith, Owen Glass, Pat Khan, rh Sadiq Murray, Ian Straw, rh Mr Jack Glindon, Mrs Mary Lammy, rh Mr David Nash, Pamela Stringer, Graham Godsiff, Mr Roger Lazarowicz, Mark O’Donnell, Fiona Tami, Mark Goggins, rh Paul Leslie, Chris Onwurah, Chi Thomas, Mr Gareth Goodman, Helen Lewis, Mr Ivan Owen, Albert Trickett, Jon Greatrex, Tom Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Perkins, Toby Turner, Karl Green, Kate Long, Naomi Phillipson, Bridget Twigg, Derek Greenwood, Lilian Love, Mr Andrew Pound, Stephen Twigg, Stephen Griffith, Nia Lucas, Ian Powell, Lucy Umunna, Mr Chuka Gwynne, Andrew MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Qureshi, Yasmin Vaz, Valerie Hain, rh Mr Peter Mactaggart, Fiona Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Walley, Joan Hamilton, Mr David Mahmood, Mr Khalid Reed, Mr Jamie Watts, Mr Dave Hamilton, Fabian Mahmood, Shabana Reynolds, Emma Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Hanson, rh Mr David Malhotra, Seema Reynolds, Jonathan Whitehead, Dr Alan Havard, Mr Dai Mann, John Riordan, Mrs Linda Williamson, Chris Healey, rh John Marsden, Mr Gordon Ritchie, Ms Margaret Wilson, Phil Hendrick, Mark McCabe, Steve Robertson, Angus Wilson, Sammy Hermon, Lady McCann, Mr Michael Robertson, John Winnick, Mr David Hillier, Meg McCarthy, Kerry Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Hilling, Julie McClymont, Gregg Rotheram, Steve Wishart, Pete Hodge, rh Margaret McCrea, Dr William Roy, Mr Frank Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Hodgson, Mrs Sharon McDonagh, Siobhain Roy, Lindsay Wright, David Hoey, Kate McDonald, Andy Hood, Mr Jim McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Question accordingly agreed to. Hopkins, Kelvin McDonnell, John 71WH 13 MARCH 2013 British Sikh Community 72WH

Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): I Westminster Hall congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important and timely debate. Does he agree that the temples, or Wednesday 13 March 2013 gurdwaras as we call them, are not only places to worship? They are places to promote equality and even secularism and to bring health and education to the [ALBERT OWEN in the Chair] community, so that every community can get involved and receive the benefit. British Sikh Community Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting Gareth Johnson: That is an important point. In my be now adjourned.—(Nicky Morgan.) experience, what has always been obvious from the moment I have walked through the door of a Sikh temple is the welcoming nature and community spirit 9.30 am that exist there. The Sikhs who worship in gurdwaras do Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): It is a pleasure to not say, “This is just for us Sikhs. It is not for anyone serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen, I think for else to become involved. This is a closed shop that no the first time. one else can enter into.” What is so obvious is the I pay tribute to the inspiration behind the debate, open-door policy, for everyone to come in and celebrate which was that of the hon. Member for Leeds North Sikhism, which is perhaps a lesson to every other religion East (Fabian Hamilton) who runs the all-party group in the country. for British Sikhs, and to the excellent work of that group in Parliament and the way in which it has helped Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the to recognise the contribution of the Sikh community to hon. Gentleman on bringing this matter to the attention our country. I also pay tribute to the work of the hon. of the House. He mentioned the Baptist church and the Members for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) Sikh temple working together; the Sikh community and and for Ealing, Southall (Mr Sharma); they have probably Baptist churches also worked together to put on record put in more effort for the Sikh community than any their opinion of and opposition to the Marriages (Same other Members, and their work has been over a considerable Sex Couples) Bill. Does he feel that that is a supreme number of years in their own communities and in the example of two different religions working together to wider country. oppose something that they see as wrong? I want to concentrate on the success of the British Sikh community; I do not intend to dwell on politics in Gareth Johnson: Forgive me, but I will not concentrate India and what is happening there. I want to highlight on the issue of gay marriage today. We have had that how the successful work of the Sikh community has debate in the main Chamber. I certainly pay tribute, evolved in this country over the years, which I will however, to the existence of common political ground illustrate by highlighting a few areas in my own constituency. between various religions; it is heartening to see those The Sikhs make up the largest ethnic minority group two religions working together for a common interest. in Dartford and they have integrated into the community so that today they form an integral part of the local population. The local gurdwara, Hargobind, is a lively, Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I will bustling and welcoming place. I mentioned the temple not go down the avenue of gay marriages either. For in my maiden speech, because it sits right next door to many years, certainly in Coventry, I have dealt with the our Baptist church on Highfield road in Dartford. Both Sikh community, as leader of Coventry city council and congregations enjoy extremely cordial relationships with as an MP. To return to the point made earlier by the each other; there is absolutely no hint of friction whatever, hon. Gentleman, one of the things that strikes people which is very much a testimony to our good race when they go to a temple, if they do not know much relations in the area. about the Sikh community, is the way that they share food with the rest of the community—that is open to the community. People should bear it in mind that one Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): I congratulate my of the major contributions of the Sikh community, hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Does he certainly in Coventry and probably nationally, is that it agree that because of the racial harmony experienced gets involved with other faiths—in the Council of Churches, not only in his constituency but in constituencies such for example. More importantly, it makes a major as mine we must commend the Sikh community for how contribution to education, medical science, medical ethics it works together with all other communities? I have and so forth. The Sikhs punch above their weight, many communities in my constituency living in peace frankly. We should acknowledge that. and harmony and working together, and I congratulate the Sikh community on its leadership and input. Gareth Johnson: That is an excellent point. My local Gareth Johnson: My hon. Friend makes an important Sikh temple is very much a community hub. I worked point, but an extra point is that the good relationship with a Sikh by the name of Jatinder Sokhal in a firm of does not happen accidentally; it takes a lot of hard solicitors before being elected to this place; he said that, work from the indigenous population and the Sikh when he was studying at university and could not even community. It is absolutely essential for everyone to afford to feed himself, he went down to his local Sikh play their role and not to take for granted the good temple, was welcomed and fed. The benevolence, therefore, relationships that exist between the Sikhs and every in many Sikh temples is something that we should other part of the community. remark upon. 73WH British Sikh Community13 MARCH 2013 British Sikh Community 74WH

Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) about the big society is important. In 2007, the Sikh (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the community in Milton Keynes built and opened a large debate. He has just made a point that is very true in my gurdwara, which now provides a wide range of services, home city of Southampton. The students know that if such as a weekly over-50s lunch club which binds together they wish to get not only wonderful food but free food, members of the community. the gurdwara is the place to go for it. Every year, the Southampton Council of Faiths holds an annual peace Gareth Johnson: My hon. Friend makes an important walk, which has almost become a frenzy of competitive point and I pay tribute to his work with the Sikh feeding, as the different religions compete to ensure that community in Milton Keynes. He gives another example those enjoying the peace walk and the different religions of how Sikh temples are not just places of worship, but coming together get the best food at whichever religious a hub where the whole community can congregate and building they attend. do good work for the benefit of others. Gareth Johnson: That is absolutely right. A source of The strong work ethic in the Sikh community is worthy pride in the temple is how well its members can provide of note. Sikhs have been disproportionately successful for the community and how hospitable they can be. in business in this country.They have a deserved reputation That is very much to their credit. for having a strong work ethic. I believe that Sikhs are I will now make some progress— second only to Jews in how financially productive they are as a religious group. Their belief in hard work and Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): Will the the importance of the family has been the reason for hon. Gentleman give way? their success in the United Kingdom. A cursory look at The Sunday Times rich list throws up a clear and Gareth Johnson: I will give way and then make some disproportionately high number of successful Sikhs. progress. Their determination to strive for success is a trait that is Jonathan Ashworth: Before the hon. Gentleman moves very much to their credit. on, I must bring Leicester into this part of the discussion. There are many success stories of Sikh integration We are a proudly diverse city, strong and vibrant today into the British way of life, but we must ensure that we thanks in part to the contribution of our Sikh community. do not become complacent. In the House in 2010, I I pay tribute to the Leicestershire Sikh Alliance and to raised the searching of turbans at British airports with the many gurdwaras in Leicester, some of which host the then Secretary of State for Transport, my right hon. me for regular advice surgeries. Given that the Sikh Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge community has played such a prominent role not only (Mr Hammond). That issue is important for the Sikh in cities such as Leicester and Wolverhampton but in community. We need to preserve security on aeroplanes, British history, does he agree that the Sikh contribution but we should recognise the significant impact on a to the first and second world wars should be given Sikh of searching a turban, and we must ensure that all greater prominence in our national debate as we look other measures, such as scanning, are used before doing towards the commemorations of the first world war? so. EU regulations have not been appropriate in the Gareth Johnson: The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent past, and I pay tribute to the Department for Transport’s point. I pay tribute to his work in his local Sikh community. work on tackling the issue with the seriousness it deserves. Those of the Sikh religion have undoubtedly made a It seems that common sense will now prevail. disproportionately large contribution to the British armed forces and to the first and second world wars, in which Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): I pay huge tribute they served with huge distinction. Today, there are to the enormous contribution the Sikh community has many Sikhs in the British Army. Later in my speech, I made to life in Dudley over so many years. A hard-working will talk about the Guardsman who has been able to professional constituent who is a respected member of serve without a bearskin, which illustrates the selfless our community was travelling back from Spain with his manner in which many Sikhs have served this country. company. His employers could vouch for him, but he It is something we should be grateful for. was humiliated at the airport in Spain where the security Recently, I had the pleasure of attending a gurdwara guards insisted that he remove his turban. There had in Gravesend, for the wedding of Mr Avtar Sandhu’s been no scanning, and there were no facilities for retying daughter. The ceremony was held in the gurdwara Nanak, his turban—the necessary equipment was in his suitcase which is the largest Sikh temple not just in Europe, but and already on the plane. That was absolutely unacceptable outside India. What struck me about the building was treatment. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we not just its beauty, but the way in which it was built. If should do much more with the European Community anyone is looking for an example of the big society in to put pressure on other countries, especially Spain, so action, the building of that Sikh temple is a classic one. that constituents are not treated like that in future? Sikh carpenters and bricklayers who attended the temple to pray spent their spare time building it. It was fantastic Gareth Johnson: That is an extremely important point, that they attended the temple, and then changed into and the case that the hon. Gentleman mentions is their work clothes and worked extremely hard to finish worrying. off an enormous project that has brought together the whole Sikh community in that area. Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): It is Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): My hon. important to update colleagues. A recent European Friend is being generous in giving way. I must add directive specifies that scanning is compulsory for Sikhs Milton Keynes to the list of communities in this country at airports. Many people have tried to take credit for with a large and vibrant Sikh community. His point that, but the British Government really can because 75WH British Sikh Community13 MARCH 2013 British Sikh Community 76WH they campaigned on the matter. It illustrates that we can Gareth Johnson: That is correct, and I believe that a have a proactive rather than a reactive relationship with ten-minute rule Bill made the same point yesterday. It is Europe. absolutely true that Sikhs and other members of the Commonwealth have served this country not only with Gareth Johnson: My hon. Friend’s intervention may distinction, but with great selflessness, which has been provide a more accurate response to the hon. Member the most remarkable aspect of the service that they have for Dudley North (Ian Austin) than I can give. The past diligently given to this country. However, we should be humiliation of Sikhs has been at the root of the issue. aware that the Sikh community in the UK still faces We all accept that we must ensure adequate security on significant challenges. We have been very positive during aeroplanes, but that need not involve humiliation by the debate, as we should be, about the contribution that searching turbans, which form an integral part of their the Sikhs have made to British society, but let us not religion. forget the challenges that Sikhs face. On general security matters, it is worth noting the It is important to recognise the challenge of the caste extraordinarily low crime rates in the Sikh community. system that still exists, or the prejudice—I should perhaps Before I became a Member of Parliament I worked in be more specific about it—that is widespread. It is not magistrates courts. When accompanying a group of unfair to say that it can often go further than simple magistrates around Feltham young offenders institution, classism; it is a deep-rooted bias of perhaps the most they referred to religious worship. It became apparent unpleasant kind. The sad aspect of the issue is that the that there were no facilities for Sikhs to pray, and that problem is not born outside the Sikh religion, but very worried the magistrates, but the prison officer who was often generated within the Sikh community. I have had accompanying us said that there were no Sikhs in the Sikhs come to my surgery, for example, who are so institution who wanted to pray. The number at the time frustrated and who feel that they are being held back was so low that the institution was not required to because of prejudices that have been imposed on them. provide those facilities. That may have changed now, The problem is perhaps little understood by the wider but it illustrates clearly the compliance with the law in community, but it needs to be tackled. the Sikh community, and that should be celebrated. The hon. Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): I congratulate Ashworth) referred to the contribution by the Sikh the hon. Gentleman on raising this important issue. He community to the British Army. Many Sikhs have served has rightly identified the positive contribution that Sikhs with distinction in the Army through numerous conflicts have made to our economy and our armed forces. I and we recently witnessed the first Guardsman wearing want to turn his attention to the issue of political a turban instead of a bearskin. That throws up a service. In our hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton difficult debate about respect for the turban on one South West (Paul Uppal), we have a Sikh Member of hand, and respect for the traditions of the Guards on this House, and my seat on Croydon council, which I the other. The British Army has clearly shown respect vacated to become an MP, was taken by Jeet Bains, the for the turban by allowing it to be worn without a first Sikh councillor in Croydon. Does he agree that it bearskin, and I hope that that encourages other Sikhs would be great to see more Sikhs represented on our who are considering joining the Army. local councils and here in this House, taking a wider role in public service? Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): I am listening carefully to my hon. Friend and enjoying his examples of the Gareth Johnson: Yes it would, and what is remarkable challenges and success of the Sikh community, including is the disproportionate way that Sikhs have generally their distinction in the armed forces. The Sikh community contributed to public life and punched above their that I represent in Hiltonbury in Chandler’s Ford is very weight in many ways. They have had an impact in this effective at campaigning on issues closer to home. A place, with my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton number of constituents have contacted me about poor South West and the hon. Member for Ealing, Southall. bus services, which is relevant to all our constituents Many members of the Sikh community have made a whatever their faith. The bus service from Hiltonbury significant contribution to the British way of life through to Southampton, where they must travel to attend temple, politics and other means. I pay tribute to Jeet Bains for is very poor, but they are successful at many different being that first councillor, as my hon. Friend the Member levels, not just on global issues. for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell) mentioned, and for the significant contribution that he is able to make. Gareth Johnson: I commend my hon. Friend on managing to connect service in the Army with bus Mr Virendra Sharma: Last week, the House of Lords services. That is a phenomenal achievement, as is his agreed to an amendment to add caste to the Equality contribution to the Sikh community in Winchester, Act 2010. Will the hon. Gentleman work with us and which will be delighted to hear that it may get a better campaign for the Government to keep that change to bus service as a result of his representation. the Equality Act, so that we can act against the caste system as we did against race in the Race Relations Act Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): On the Sikh 1976? contribution to the British Army, yesterday was Commonwealth day and I was at the Commonwealth Gareth Johnson: I know that the Government are gates with some children from my constituency who looking at that very carefully to see if anything can be were celebrating the Commonwealth armed forces’ done to prevent such prejudice, which certainly exists in contribution to battles in the first and second world some quarters. wars. Will the hon. Gentleman work with me to ensure Part of the issue is the ignorance of some aspects of that the history curriculum properly reflects the contribution the Sikh religion, which can often be behind the prejudices of many Sikh soldiers to the freedom of Britain? that we see. The typical response to the kirpan illustrates 77WH British Sikh Community13 MARCH 2013 British Sikh Community 78WH

[Gareth Johnson] discriminated against. That is why I supported the establishment of Guru Nanak school, the first Sikh that well. I struggle to find the reasons why we have so school in my constituency. The resources that have gone many problems with Sikhs wearing a kirpan. The only into it from successive Governments and from the explanation I can come up with is that it may be to do community overall have made it, frankly, the best school with the hundreds of years of Englishmen fearing Scotsmen in the country. The educational results are phenomenally wearing the sgian dubh. The fear of Scotsmen wearing good. In addition, the whole ethos of the school, thanks that dagger might be behind what is very often a fearful to the head teacher, Rajinder Sandhu, is that everybody reaction to Sikhs wearing the kirpan. Perhaps my race is welcomed into the school. In fact, when my son did needs to move on. We should see the kirpan in its not attend, I got a bit of stick, and he did not attend correct context and be less obstructive towards its use. because, if he had, I would have been accused of preferential In conclusion, I do not claim—and have not claimed, treatment for trying to get my son into such a school. throughout this debate—to be any kind of expert on the The school says, “We open our doors to everyone, not Sikh religion, but I have seen over the years the enormous, just Sikhs”, but in addition, “We send our students out positive impact that Sikhs have had, not only in my into the wider community and we invite other schools constituency, but across the UK. There are still undoubtedly to work with us.” It has secured a partnership right many issues that need to be resolved, yet I want to pay across the community, and I want to commend the tribute to British Sikhs today for all that they have school, the head teacher and others, for their hard achieved. Their contribution amounts to so much more work. than their numbers, and I am grateful to have had the On behalf of the House, I also send our condolences opportunity of introducing a debate that recognises to the family of Poonam Bhattal. Some Members will that. know that the young girl lost her life on a school trip to Switzerland. Her funeral was last week, and her death 9.55 am has devastated the school and the wider community. John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): A lot I hope that we find the truth of what happened to her. I of people want to speak so I will try to be as brief as know the school cared for her very deeply and that the possible. We are here to celebrate the role of the Sikh family has suffered badly. I would like to send our community and the contribution that they have made to condolences to them. our community and society. It is also time to give a few thanks as well. We held a conference in 1997, where we The third issue is culture. The point that came up was brought the Sikh community, the Punjabi community, that we need to maintain the Sikh culture and the together to set the agenda for sub-groups of Parliament Punjabi language. How should we do that? One of the and the issues that they wanted us to address. I want to ideas was to use modern media, and radio in particular. run through a few of those and say thanks to a few One of the first community radio stations to be given a people. licence was Desi radio in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr Sharma). First, the whole concept of Sikhism is based not only It has been a tremendous success, as a result of the on community, but on family. One issue that we addressed community coming together and, to be frank, because was the inability of families to be united, purely because of some heroes and heroines. Ajit Khera, who has been the visa system was not working properly. I want to the chair of Desi radio all the way through, has thank those Members of Parliament and others—and demonstrated how a community can be welded together the Sikh community overall—who campaigned for the and how radio can be used, particularly with regard to opening of the visa office in Jalandhar and the work the promotion of language and culture. that was done to free that up. However, the issues on visas remain. We still have constituents coming to us A number of historical projects have been launched who have not been treated fairly or properly, and who by the UK Punjab Heritage Association. Many hon. have then been exploited by agents as well. Members will have visited the exhibition that it held at the School of Oriental and African studies and elsewhere Caroline Nokes: I thank the hon. Gentleman for with regard to the Golden Temple—the Darbar Sahib. I giving way so early in his comments. Does he agree that thought that what that did was to introduce the concept there is not simply a problem with visas? A number of of the Khalsa Panth, the Sikh culture and its history Sikh members of our communities have lived in the UK and achievements to a much wider circle of people than for many years, but due to the refusal of the Indian high just the Sikh community here. I am very pleased that commission to issue passports, they are effectively stranded last week the heritage lottery fund announced that it is in the UK and unable to visit their families in India. now funding the same group to do a longer project. Hundreds of thousands of pounds are being invested. John McDonnell: The hon. Lady is absolutely spot The project involves working with schools and is entitled on, and that is one of the issues that we need to work “Empire, Faith and War: The Sikhs and World War together on. I know that members of the all-party One”. group are working on that now. I have to say that the new Government regulations with regard to students do I sometimes get anxious about the militaristic impression not help, in terms of maintaining that flow and connection of the Sikhs. The Sikhs themselves became warriors at with the Punjab itself and the Punjabi community overall. one point, yes. Why? Not because they were imperialists The second issue, briefly, is education. I am not a or invaders, but because they wanted to protect the supporter of religious schools; I believe that people Khalsa; they wanted to protect their own community. should be educated together, but I understand that They transferred that commitment on, into their while we have religious schools, no group should be commitment to serving Britain as well, and that was 79WH British Sikh Community13 MARCH 2013 British Sikh Community 80WH done in partnership; it never involved acceptance of 10.4 am subjugation. Again, I congratulate the association on the work that it has done. Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): Thank you, Mr Owen. It is a pleasure to speak under your One of the fundamental issues that has been raised stewardship. I will try to be brief, but the nature of this time and time again with us is human rights, and we debate is unique, so if you will indulge me a little, sir, I cannot avoid the issue. We had discussion after discussion will try to skip through some of the points that I want about what happened in the atrocities in the 1980s and to make. the injustices that took place, many of which have never been addressed. I do not believe that any discussion on I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford the Sikh community should not involve discussion of (Gareth Johnson) on securing the debate. I was going to the need that there still is to bring to book the people open the first paragraph of this speech in Punjabi, but I who committed those atrocities during that period, was told by Hansard that that would create a few because we have never found the ultimate truth and difficulties. I was inspired in that by Hardeep Singh many of them have never been brought to justice. Kohli, who did a piece for Channel 4 many years ago called “In Search of the Tartan Turban”. He was fretting In addition, there have been injustices here. We have about how he was going to do a comic gig in a working-class mentioned the wearing of the kirpan and other religious pub in Glasgow. It was going to be a really tough gig, duties. Injustices still go on. We still get individual and he was wondering how he was going to do it. He constituents who have been turned away at the London did the first 30 seconds in Punjabi, and hon. Members Eye, from concerts at Wembley and so on. Madame can imagine the laughter spreading round the pub, but Tussauds was another example. We tried to ensure that let us be honest: this is not a working-class pub in at least some standard guidelines were issued, and to a Glasgow and I am no Hardeep Singh Kohli—that was a certain extent, when it comes to public service, we have slight digression. achieved that. The problem occurs when the individual private contractors are not taking note and not reflecting If hon. Members do not mind, I would like to paint a the culture of diversity in our society. More work needs backdrop of the spiritual background and the canvas of to be done on that. I echo the point that has been raised. Sikh philosophy, as I think that many other speakers in I know that the all-party group recently sent a delegation the debate will be talking about the contribution of to Europe. We need to ensure that we are educating our Sikhs in business and other aspects of life and the role European partners well on how to address that issue. that they play in the community. I want to highlight a few of these points, because I believe that it will help We had a debate in the House of Commons Chamber hon. Members in all parts of the Chamber to engage a couple of weeks ago with regard to the death penalty. with the debate if they get an idea of what Sikhi is and I was impressed by the unanimity across the Chamber. Sikh philosophy. I do not mean that as a rebuke to any We were saying to the Government of India, as a friend, Member who is genuine about taking part in the debate respecting their sovereignty and independence as a separate today. However, a big part of being Punjabi and a big democratic nation, that we urge them to abolish the part of being Sikh is always to be big-hearted and to say death penalty. We cannot be in a situation in which it as you see it. That is central to the cultural background. Balwant Singh Rajoana and Professor Bhullar are still on death row after all these years and at any time could My own experience, having been a Member for the be executed. I repeat to the Indian Government: please past few years and reading the e-mails that come into lift that threat. I have a final plea with regard to Professor my inbox, is that messages come in saying, “This e-mail Bhullar in particular. My hon. Friend the Member for represents the message of the Sikh community”, “This Derby North (Chris Williamson) and I are meeting his is the view of the Sikh community” or “This is what the family tomorrow. He is very ill at the moment. I would Sikh community are thinking.” Speaking candidly, I welcome the Indian Government allowing independent know that sometimes individuals will say, “I will deliver medical support to go in to assess his condition and the Sikh vote in my ward”, “I will deliver the Sikh vote provide him with additional attention to ensure that his for this street” or “I will deliver the Sikh vote in this medical needs are properly addressed. constituency.” I have to say to all hon. Members that that is absolute tosh. The Sikh community are no I congratulate the hon. Member for Dartford (Gareth different from anyone else. Johnson)on bringing this debate to the House today and I concur with what he said. We are celebrating the It is the case, particularly among young Sikhs—I am achievements of the Sikh community and thanking all heartened by what I have learned through my interaction those who have worked with us to address the issues and with them—that the issues that Sikhs talk about are the the agenda that they have set with us. There is also a issues that everyone else cares about, such as the education new agenda for the coming period. A new generation of their children and how they want to advance, but are coming up, with new ideas and new initiatives that central to them is their passionate belief about what we need to ensure we can support. I am pleased that the defines them as Sikh. That drives them through their all-party group for the Sikh community is in place. I am careers, in the community, in business and in many pleased with the work that has been done in the past by other aspects of life. the all-party group for the Punjabi community. I pledge The term “Sikh” means someone who dedicates my support for that continuing work, as I am sure other themselves to become a “disciple and seeker” or, to put hon. Members will do in this debate. it another way, to learn to be a student towards spiritual enlightenment. There were 10 Sikh gurus, and the idea Albert Owen (in the Chair): Before I call Paul Uppal, I of each respective guru was to be an embodiment of just say to hon. Members that a number have indicated scholarly learning, wisdom and discipline. These traits that they want to speak. If each Member takes five were passed on from guru to guru, starting from the minutes, we will get everyone in. I call Paul Uppal. first guru, Guru Nanak Dev Ji, who lived from 1469 to 81WH British Sikh Community13 MARCH 2013 British Sikh Community 82WH

[Paul Uppal] the small detachment of 21 men stood firm and repulsed all attacks. The Sikhs fought to the last man. All 21 men 1539 and who taught that this can be done through a were posthumously awarded the Indian order of merit—the variety of measures. The first thing is Kirat Karo—the highest gallantry award given to Indian ranks in those Hansard writers should not worry; I will provide them days and equivalent to the Victoria Cross. When the with the written version. That means earning one’s gallantry of Saragarhi was recounted in the British livelihood through honest means, while remembering Parliament, the account drew a standing ovation from God—a way of adopting personal responsibility, if you the Members of Parliament present and was brought to like. The second is Vand Chhako—sharing with others. the notice of Queen Victoria. I highlight that battle, A striking feature of Sikhism is the idea of Seva. That is because it illustrates not only Sikh courage, but a second the idea of always sharing what we have. The final thing element of Sikhi—in no other community in the world is Naam Japo—constant remembrance of the Lord and would such a battle occur and nobody talk about it. always being humble and modest. Only the Sikhs would do something like that. I have gone into such detail because it encapsulates the beautiful My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central concepts and ideology of the Sikh spirit. After his (Gavin Barwell) congratulated me on being a Sikh death, Guru Gobind Singh, the final guru, dictated that Member of Parliament. I am the only Sikh sitting in the all Sikh thinking should be embodied in the Guru House at the moment. My personal belief is that this is Granth Sahib. It is often referred to as the Sikh’s holy why we do not see more Sikhs coming forward into book, but it is much more than that. It is a blueprint for politics: to be a Sikh, one must always be humble and how we should conduct our lives in a modest, humble contained within oneself and always be modest. I have and wise manner. to tell hon. Members that that does not always fit well with politics. As we know, this business is often about I shall highlight a few elements of what the Government self-promotion, and that goes across a central element have done. I know, because I was in the room, that Sikhs of Sikhi, which is always to be modest. When I get now celebrate Vaisakhi at No. 10. I recommended it to home on a Thursday evening and my wife is waiting for the Prime Minister at the time and saw how animated me, the first thing to do is to bath the three children, he was by the idea. My hon. Friend the Member for read them their stories and always remember who you Dartford and the hon. Member for Dudley North (Ian are. That is the essence of Sikhism. Austin) highlighted searches of the Sikh turban at Sikhs are taught that there are five sinful temptations airports, and I commend the British Government for that take us away from the ethos of Sikhism: Kam, the work they have done on that. It is absolutely fantastic. which is lust; Krodh, which is rage; Lobh, which is The Prime Minster recently became the first serving greed, Moh, which is attachment; and Ahankar, or ego, British Prime Minister to visit Amritsar, and I was which I have just alluded to and which is a bit of a lucky enough to accompany him on that visit. There stumbling block for many Sikhs in terms of coming into were some poor people there from Uttar Pradesh, and politics. when the Prime Minister went through the Golden The first guru was anxious to establish a new central Temple—the Harmandir Sahib—I could see that the concept of faith that would be open to all, preaching a people who organised the trip were anxious to take him concept of equality at a time when India was scarred by away from them, but he indicated that he wanted to caste, gender and feudal inequalities. He took in concepts meet them. As was highlighted earlier in the debate, from both Islam and Hinduism and he famously said: there are four doors in a Sikh temple—one on each side—which mean that it is open to all faiths and “Na koi Hindu na koi Musalman”—“There is no Hindu or communities. The Prime Minister met those incredibly Muslim.” poor people, and I can tell hon. Members how humbling He said that we are all human beings in front of God. it was for him. That, again, encapsulates the idea of Very early on, there was that message of equality and Sikhism. talk about that concept, which was very attractive to I do not always agree with the hon. Member for many Indians at that time. Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), who mentioned I want to elaborate on the principle that my hon. Sikh schools. One is coming to my constituency. It will Friend the Member for Dartford alluded to, and make very much have a Sikh ethos, which will encapsulate all another link between buses and military history. The the ideas I have mentioned—it is about responsibility battle of Saragarhi has not been mentioned in 115 years, and what we give back to society as a whole. and now it has been mentioned in Westminster twice in 24 hours, so there you go—it is like buses coming all at It is with an element of personal sadness that I once. That element of history beautifully encapsulates acknowledge there are not more Sikhs involved in the Sikh philosophy. It was a battle in which 21 Sikhs Parliament, but I hope that talking about the concept of fought against 10,000 armed Afghans. The battle of Sikhism will encourage more Sikhs to come forward. Saragarhi, fought by the young men of the 36th Sikhs in My parents are here today, because they came for 1897, was the epitome of raw courage, sheer grit and yesterday’s ten-minute rule Bill debate and the debate unshakable determination. today. This will annoy my family incredibly, because my wife is always admonishing me for name-checking whenever Saragarhi was a signalling post between Fort Lockhart I make such speeches, but my oldest daughter encapsulated and Fort Gulistan on the Samana ridge, in what now is my feelings on Sikhism quite wonderfully when she the North West Frontier Province between Pakistan said, “Dad we have such a cool faith, why don’t we talk and Afghanistan. On September 12 1897, about 10,000 about it much more?” I hope that in some small way, by Afghan tribesmen swarmed towards Saragarhi, while making this speech this morning, I have helped that another group cut off all links. For the next six hours, process. 83WH British Sikh Community13 MARCH 2013 British Sikh Community 84WH

10.13 am illness. There is always the challenge of freedom and Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): greater independence for our younger generation, who It is a pleasure to take part in the debate under your ask for more choice and more decision-making power chairmanship, Mr Owen. I have not brought my sgian than perhaps their parents and grandparents enjoyed. dubh, but I will make a few points in the debate. We have heard about searches of turbans—the dastar—at According to the recent census, the city I represent, airports, about which a great many Members on both Wolverhampton, has 22,000 Sikhs—the second biggest sides of the House campaigned, as did Sikh organisations. concentration of those who are of the Sikh faith in the I acknowledge the good efforts of the Department for country. Most of the Sikh community in Wolverhampton Transport in working with the European Union and have their family roots around the city of Jalandhar in other Governments to reach a successful conclusion. Punjab, which I have had the honour of visiting. I also The result is that the European Commission now says had the honour of visiting the Golden Temple some that swab and wand technology used in UK airports years ago—a truly humbling and profound experience can be used throughout the Community. I am a strong that I will never forget. believer in good, tough, strong security at our airports. My Sikh constituents agree that it is essential, but if we The story of Sikhism in Wolverhampton begins in can achieve it in a way that respects people’s faith, so earnest with the generation who came in the 1950s and much the better, particularly because freedom of movement ’60s to work in places such as Bilston steel and other is a founding principle of the EU. The UK Government’s heavy engineering works. The national story of course engagement with the issue has produced a far better goes back much further that that, as we have heard, result than we saw on bank bonuses and other issues. If with brave Sikh service in two world wars. For those there is a lesson in that, it is that positive engagement early immigrants in Wolverhampton, life was not easy. with the EU, rather that withdrawal or turning up so They were often packed into crowded living conditions, late that we cannot influence the debate, produces results. separated from family and friends and doing heavy physical work. They sometimes met with friendship and The community is a success in the UK, but it sometimes good experiences, but they also sometimes met with has a strange relationship with India. As my hon. discrimination, perhaps even hostility and certainly a Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John lack of understanding. That has changed a lot over McDonnell) said, that in large part stems from the time, and the community today is a very successful and events of 1984, when many Sikhs lost their lives. The established part of city life. pain of that experience and the lasting sense of injustice among the Sikh community are very real. There is a There are many gurdwaras in my constituency and lasting desire for greater transparency and honesty in throughout the city. The annual Vaisakhi celebration is the story of what happened. a major part of its cultural life. Thousands of people take part in the nagar kirtan—the parade—which goes If the community’s relationship with India is strained, through the streets of my constituency, in a very well its relationship with the UK has been a good one. That organised and joyful celebration of the Sikh faith. Our is a tribute to the Sikh community and its efforts. It is city will probably be for ever associated with Enoch Powell, also a tribute to cities such as Wolverhampton and to but the story of the community and our history since he our country that a community such as the Sikhs and spoke shows that he was wrong: the Sikh community in many others over the years can come to the UK, make a Wolverhampton is a success and Wolverhampton’s multi- new life, put down roots and be part of the country’s faith, multi-religious community is a success. success. My own parents came from Donegal in the Republic of Ireland in the 1950s, and the huge Irish We have proved that such successes can be achieved, community in Scotland has also been successful. It is a provided there is commitment all round, and a great tribute to the UK that we have been open to that over many people can take credit for that success. Walking the years. down Dudley road in my constituency, I can see its physical evidence. I can walk past sari shops and Bollywood Far too often today, the debate about immigration is films for hire. I can eat the finest Punjabi food. I can couched in terms of limits, dangers and negative stories walk into the new Lakshmi restaurant—a great investment about what people can bring to our shores. If we take a by Major Singh. We can see the impact of the community wider lesson from today’s debate, it should be that what on the cultural and economic life of the city of a community such as the Sikhs, who are fantastic, Wolverhampton. enterprising and educationally aspirational, with values of faith, family and community, has brought to the UK Paul Uppal: I cannot resist: it says something about shows that immigration can be a positive part of our the common sense of the people Wolverhampton that national story, and I hope it is in the future. in 1950 they returned Enoch Powell to the House with a majority of 691, but they returned somebody of Sikh 10.21 am descent in 2010 for exactly the same constituency with a majority of 691. Rest assured, I will not make a speech Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): I, about race relations in 18 years. too, begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Gareth Johnson) on securing this debate, Mr McFadden: I wonder what the majority will be at giving us the opportunity to recognise the achievements the next election. The voters will decide. of British Sikhs in our communities and across the The community is a success in Wolverhampton and country. I will be as brief as possible. around the country, but we should not pretend that I particularly congratulate my hon. Friend the Member there are no issues in the community or challenges for for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) and the it. Public health issues, which are not confined to the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East Sikh community, certainly affect it. People are sometimes (Mr McFadden) on their words; it is important to give reluctant to face up to hidden illnesses, including mental them the opportunity to say what they needed to say. 85WH British Sikh Community13 MARCH 2013 British Sikh Community 86WH

[Chris White] to our local economy. The British Asian Business and Professionals Association is a fantastic group and works I am proud to represent Warwick and Leamington, tremendously hard in Warwick and Leamington. which has one of the largest Sikh communities in the At a time when we are looking to get our economy country. It also has one of the largest and—I even dare moving again and building links with emerging markets, to say—most magnificent gurdwaras in the country. we should recognise the skills of British Sikhs in the There is a danger of starting off a bit of competition, business world and ensure that we are giving the right but I assure hon. Members that if they visit, they will support to the next generation, so that we continue to have the opportunity to agree with me. I look forward make the most of the Sikh community’s potential. to visiting that gurdwara again this weekend. Warwick district, which is largely made up of my Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): Does constituency, has more than 5,000 Sikhs. After Christianity, the hon. Gentleman agree that more needs to be done to Sikhism is the largest religious denomination. Living tackle discrimination against Sikh workers in the workplace? in Warwick and Leamington has made me conscious Particularly, the Government could do more to ensure of the importance of our community in every aspect that employers understand the special protections for of our lives. Throughout my time as the Member of wearers of the Sikh turban. Parliament, I have always sought to support people who want to give something back. Chris White: I agree with the hon. Lady that more I have always been impressed by how important work needs to be done on that aspect, and conversations public service is to the identity of Sikhs and how and debates on it will be worth while. serving others is woven into their way of life. Sikhs are British Sikhs are seeking to contribute not only locally always seeking to do more and finding new ways of or nationally, but internationally.Like many hon. Members, contributing, and I am grateful for their work in my I have received a number of petitions from constituents community and for the time that they give up and the about the treatment of minorities in India and the money that they donate to important local projects. campaign to abolish the death penalty. I hope that the Government will listen to those concerns and ensure Every year, we host the Leamington Mela festival, that they communicate with British Sikhs about our which is always well attended by local residents and is country’s foreign policy. well organised by the local Sikh community. Not only does it provide a chance for residents to sample a There is always a danger in such debates that we wonderful array of food and see excellent live entertainment, parcel up our communities into different sections. I but it helps to bring people together and reinforce our believe that British Sikhs have many of the same concerns community’s sense of identity. Our community also has as everyone else, and we have mentioned some of them a Sikh community centre, which provides a range of in the debate, starting with buses. I believe that British services and a place for local residents, particularly Sikhs have a strong sense of their identity, both as Sikhs older people, to come together. and as British citizens, and it is right that Parliament takes the time to recognise that. We should build on that There are similar stories across the country of the and ensure that British Sikhs feel that their work is contributions that British Sikhs make. They are an appreciated. example of the positive impact that immigration can have on our country: enhancing our local and national I am proud to represent a diverse community in life, providing new perspectives and ensuring that our Warwick and Leamington. I am confident that Sikhs communities remain vibrant and welcoming places in will continue to make their unique contribution to our which to live. With thousands of people from across the community for many years to come, and I hope to do world settling in our country every year, we need to what I can to support them. show the benefits of making the effort to play a full and active part in our public life. 10.27 am I am glad that the Prime Minister has made every Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) (Lab): I start by effort to understand and listen to the concerns of British saying—I am not going to speak in Punjabi—sat sri Sikhs. I am also pleased to have attended Diwali celebrations akal to hon. Members present and everyone watching at at No. 10 with Sikhs from my community. However, we home and in the Public Gallery. can and should do more. I congratulate the hon. Member for Dartford (Gareth The Government should take the opportunity to Johnson) on securing this debate. He did so after we work with organisations such as the Sikh Council UK, circulated an e-mail to many members of the all-party which seeks to act as a national advocate for British group, asking them to apply for such a debate because Sikhs. We should recognise the potential of working we felt that one was timely. By the attendance here, I with democratically elected bodies such as the council, think we were absolutely right. so that Sikhs feels that their voice is being heard. I My involvement with the Sikh community in the would welcome the Prime Minister and Communities United Kingdom started in 1988, when I was elected Secretary to have regular meetings with the council and chair of the race equality committee of Leeds city other Sikh organisations in our country, so that we can council. Almost immediately following that—one year explain Government policy and take on board the into my tenure as a Leeds councillor, which I held for points made by the British Sikh community. 10 years—I was approached by a leading member of We should also recognise the important contribution the Leeds Sikh community, Mr Thandi, who was a that Sikhs make to our local economy. My community market trader and a great exponent of the virtues of the has many Sikh entrepreneurs who have started a range Sikh faith. He wanted to educate me about what Sikhism of businesses that have contributed millions of pounds meant for him, his community, the city of Leeds and the 87WH British Sikh Community13 MARCH 2013 British Sikh Community 88WH whole of Great Britain. That he did, and he did it well. —on Stonegate road in north Leeds with members of He became a close friend and was a member of the the Sikh community to discuss how we might set up a Labour party. In 1992, he kindly agreed, with his wife, Sikh elderly housing association and a welfare board, to be included in my election manifesto for that year. just as the Jewish community had done so many decades Sadly, I did not win, but to my even greater sadness, he earlier, there was a great deal of celebration, with elderly died just two days before the general election. Jewish people embracing many of our Sikh friends who My memory of Mr Thandi has carried me through had come along to discuss that with them. all my work on Leeds city council and as Member of Parliament since. I do not represent such a huge Sikh Paul Uppal: On that theme, I am a trustee of a Sikh community as hon. Members from Wolverhampton, temple that donated a significant amount of money to a Birmingham or even London do, but I still have three local Methodist church, which is very much in line with gurdwaras in my constituency, which are well attended. that collaborate approach. As was highlighted earlier, One of them is in a new building—it was built in 1997, the Sikh community works very well with other religious so I suppose it is not so new now—and I was privileged communities and all-faith organisations wherever there not only to dig the first sod of earth for that temple on is a Sikh presence. Chapeltown road, but to be present at its opening as the newly elected Member of Parliament. Fabian Hamilton: I thank the hon. Gentleman for Over the years, I have got to know many members of that comment. The values of family, education and the Leeds Sikh community, including Dr and Mrs Kalsi. hard work bring the Sikh community together with so Dr Kalsi has written a very good book about Sikhism many others, including the Jewish community in my and what it means, which I commend to anyone who constituency—and long may that continue. wants to know more about the faith, although, with a Member such as the hon. Member for Wolverhampton Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): My hon. South West (Paul Uppal) among us, perhaps we do not Friend mentioned sporting activities earlier. I draw his need to read it. My friend Prem Singh Duggal was attention—I am sure it is the same in Leeds—to the president of the Chapeltown road gurdwara and helped excellent work done by Sikh organisations and individuals me to understand so much about the Sikh faith, and in athletics and sport, not just with the introduction of one of the immediate past presidents, Mr Inderjit Singh kabaddi into British society, but with the Singh Saba Gill, always invites me to the Sikh sports events that football club in my constituency and the 100-year-old regularly take place in the city. marathon runner Fauja Singh, who has just retired I have attended the Vaisakhi celebrations in what is from running marathons. now called Millennium square in the centre of Leeds. It was not always called that—it was just the square Fabian Hamilton: I thank my hon. Friend for his outside Leeds civic hall. intervention. We were all absolutely staggered at that gentleman—his constituent—deciding at 100 years of Mr McFadden: We are pressed for time, but I want to age that the time had finally come to stop doing marathons. remind my hon. Friend and the House that I will be I wish we could all do that when we are 100-years-old, happy again to host the House of Commons Vaisakhi but I doubt that that will be the case. celebrations on 22 April, to which all right hon. and In 2006, as a member of the Select Committee on hon. Members are most cordially invited. Foreign Affairs, I visited Amritsar for the first time with my hon. Friend and the former Member for Hyndburn, Fabian Hamilton: I thank my dear hon. Friend for Greg Pope. We were a small delegation of the Foreign that intervention. He has organised that event for the Affairs Committee on our way to Lahore in Pakistan, second or third year running, and I thank him for and we stopped at Amritsar for a day and a night. It was taking on that work and making sure that Vaisakhi is one of the most enlightening and incredible experiences celebrated in the House for everyone involved. It is that I have ever had. always a joyous and colourful occasion to celebrate not That of course pre-dated the visit of the Prime Minister, only the contribution of the Sikh community in the city whom I congratulate on being the first British Prime of Leeds and in Great Britain, but to celebrate the start Minister to go to the Golden Temple. My hon. Friend of spring, although it usually rains actually. Extraordinary and I were there before him—of course, we are not colour and life is brought to the centre of the city of Prime Ministers. We walked there, as he did, in our Leeds and throughout so many of our towns and cities suits, barefoot with a head covering, and we admired in the United Kingdom to celebrate that festival, and the peace and spirituality of that holy of holiest places there is always wonderful food as well. One thing that for the Sikh faith. That permeated through to us all. We has always impressed me is the equality between men watched hundreds of people together, preparing food and women, who celebrate together, not separated. for the langar, which is the free meal given every day to They joyously celebrate humanity, as well as their own anyone who cares to call in and ask for it. We also faith and belief. experienced the serenity, the sense of spirituality and Since 1997, I have tried to bring together the Sikh faith that that place emanates and, of course, its absolute community in Leeds and the Jewish community that I beauty. represent. There are probably about equal numbers of Time is short, so I will conclude with some brief them now, as the Jewish community has declined somewhat remarks. In 2010, we re-formed the all-party group on and the Sikh community has grown. As hon. Members British Sikhs. I was elected to chair that group, following have said, the values of those communities are very the defeat of my good friend Rob Marris, the predecessor similar. When I walked into the newly built Jewish of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West. community centre—the Marjorie and Arnold Ziff centre Through that role, we have achieved a few things. I 89WH British Sikh Community13 MARCH 2013 British Sikh Community 90WH

[Fabian Hamilton] I want to raise a couple of concerns that have been mentioned to me. One is about equality in relation to backed, although I was not able to go to Brussels, the the turban and the kirpan. Recently, a high street operator lobby of the European Union. The Sikh Federation UK refused to employ someone because they wore the kirpan, has supported our group so well, and I want to pay and in court, someone was expelled from a jury for tribute to it for its work, together with that of the Sikh wearing one. Such things were protected by the equality Council UK. Those two organisations ensure that British legislation introduced by the last Government, and we Sikhs are well represented. I want to thank all the hon. must ensure that education takes place, so that such Members on the all-party group who are here today situations do not occur again. and those who are unable to join us. One of the largest letter-writing campaigns that I Finally, I want to dedicate my few words to a very have ever experienced as a Member of Parliament has dear and close friend, the late Marsha Singh, who was been about the death penalty in India. We must work the Member for Bradford West. Marsha was a good alongside this Government and the Indian Government friend, and during his life he encapsulated all the values to ensure that we are fighting for justice and fairness of Sikhism and of being a British Sikh. He died at a right around the world. very young age and will be sadly missed, but I am sure I will not say much else—I was given only three that the values he lived for will live on. minutes but I realise that I have gone on to four—other Several hon. Members rose— than that we must recognise the tremendous contribution of the Sikh community and ensure that our Parliaments Albert Owen (in the Chair): Order. We have just a few and council chambers reflect society. All political parties minutes to go; three Members wish to catch my eye; and must work together to ensure that we have representation Anas Sarwar is the first. of Sikhs in council chambers, the Scottish Parliament and at Westminster. 10.36 am Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): I will be as 10.40 am quick as possible, because of the time pressure. I first congratulate the hon. Member for Dartford (Gareth Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): Johnson) on securing this important debate. Briefly, I am proud that we have an incredibly strong I put on the record my thanks for all the tremendous Sikh community in Wolverhampton; we have the second support that the Sikh community in Glasgow have largest concentration of Sikhs in the country. I pay given me and my family over a long period. I give them tribute to the Sikh community for the contribution it a genuine thank you for that. My constituency is home makes socially, culturally and economically, and to my to one of the largest Sikh communities in Scotland. predecessor, Ken Purchase who, alongside other Members More than half of the gurdwaras in Scotland are based of Parliament and councillors, has worked so hard over in Glasgow Central, and the Central Gurdwara is currently the past three or four decades with the Sikh community being built there. It is the first purpose-built gurdwara and other communities to foster mutual understanding, in Scotland, and will house 2,000 people every week for tolerance and community relations. That success is Sunday services in the temple. It is a tremendous building, particularly impressive given that we unfortunately inherited which I encourage all Members to come and visit at any that infamous speech of Enoch Powell, which, thankfully, time. now seems like a distant memory. None the less, it is I want to make some quick points about the tremendous important to reflect on the progress that we have made contribution that the Sikh community has made to the since that time, given that there was such awful success of the United Kingdom both in terms of business discrimination in the 1960s and 1970s and later. We success—they contribute tremendously to our economy have come a very long way, and the debate is an opportunity and GDP, and to our public services, particularly to our to celebrate both the progress that we have made in national health service as doctors, nurses and the like—and fostering those community relations as well as the fantastic in terms of celebrating and vastly broadening our culture contribution of the Sikh community. in the UK, not only in cuisine, but with cultural events, I would love to have given a bit more of a taster of such as Vaisakhi. I say a massive thank you for that. the fantastic Vaisakhi celebrations that take place in More importantly, I thank first and second-generation West park every year; the procession from the Well lane and now third-generation Sikhs—I too am from a third- gurdwara in my constituency to Willenhall and all the generation migrant community—for the tremendous other community events. The community embraces people contribution of the first generation in coming here, and is very open, as the hon. Member for Dartford making the UK their home, and being accepted and (Gareth Johnson), who secured this debate, said. The recognised as one of their own within the United Kingdom, gurdwaras that we visit are so welcoming and open, and and the second generation in having built up really I want to put on record my thanks to the community. successful businesses and faith organisations, while recognising the connection that they still had with the 10.42 am mother country, particularly through charity and in giving in difficult circumstances. The third generation Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): It is a great in particular—they see themselves not as Indians or pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first Pakistanis, but genuinely as Scots or Brits—see this time, Mr Owen. Let me congratulate the hon. Member country as their own. That is really important, particularly for Dartford (Gareth Johnson) on securing this important as we come to the debate about the place of Scotland debate. It is unusual and actually very nice to participate within the United Kingdom, in which I am sure the in a debate that unites the House. We should celebrate, Sikh community will play a crucial role. and congratulate ourselves on, that fact. 91WH British Sikh Community13 MARCH 2013 British Sikh Community 92WH

Fiona Mactaggart: On that point about the unity of one, and that we should celebrate and recognise the the House, it is worth while also mentioning that in the benefits of immigration, which can be seen in the debate on the abolition of the death penalty in India, contribution of the Sikh community. there was a similar unity in the main Chamber. There is very little time left, but I want to say one or two other things. It is important to stress the fact that Chris Williamson: I concur with my hon. Friend. I the British Sikh story goes back more than 200 years, was present for part of that debate. Regrettably, I had and that there is a long, honourable and close relationship a commitment at the beginning and at the end of it, so between the Sikh community and Great Britain, which I was not able to contribute, none the less, I, too, was is clearly illustrated in the Sikh contribution to our armed struck by the unity of purpose. forces. Let me relate a personal story here. My dad served in the Enniskillens during world war two and was in John McDonnell: It was a sin of omission by me, but north Africa and at Monte Cassino. Serving alongside that unity was brought about by the mobilisation of the him in the campaign to defeat fascism were Sikh soldiers, community by the Kesri Lehar campaign. We should who served with great valour and distinction in the terrible pay tribute to all those involved. More than 100,000 battle that saw the loss of so many young lives. petitioners brought that campaign to the House. In view of the shortness of time, Mr Owen, it is important to say one or two final words about the Chris Williamson: I concur with my hon. Friend on contribution of the Sikh community to the economy, that point. I received a proportion of that petition at the and about the benefits of immigration to the UK. The gurdwara in Derby a couple of weeks ago. Sikhs have made a huge economic contribution to the nation, creating many jobs and wealth for Great Britain. There is not time to touch on everybody’s contribution I also want to mention here cohesion and integration, today, but all have been first class. I will, if I may, focus which is a topic that I am currently working on. The on just one or two. Let me start with the hon. Member Sikh community is a model of cohesion and integration for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) who talked and we could learn many lessons on the way in which it about Sikhism’s core values. It is important to stress has conducted itself in the UK. those values and I thank him for outlining them. I wanted to touch on them myself. It is worth reiterating the fact In conclusion, I have a few questions for the Minister. that within Sikhism, there is a recognition of the equality If he cannot deal with them today in his contribution, of women and of all people and a commitment to hard perhaps he could write to me afterwards. Before this work, to sharing with others and to standing up for debate, I received a briefing note from the Sikh community people and protecting them. relating to a number of issues, one of which was about celebrating the Sikh contribution to the UK in the That notion of sharing is something from which I school curriculum. Will the Minister confirm whether have benefited on many occasions when I have been that is something that is being considered? As we move privileged to visit the local gurdwaras in Derby. As one towards the 100th anniversary of the beginning of of the three vegans in the House of Commons, it is nice world war one, another request related to the contribution to go to an event where all of the food on offer is of the Sikh community to that war. It would be appropriate vegetarian, so it is always a wonderful experience. to ensure that the contribution that Sikhs made in that My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington war was recognised and perhaps the Minister could (John McDonnell) talked about the death penalty that confirm, one way or another, whether that will be the still pertains in India. He mentioned the cases of a case. couple of individuals and pointed out that we will be The Sikh Council UK has also asked that the meeting the family of Professor Bhullar, who is languishing Government formally consult with it on Government on death row, to discuss his case. policy relating to a range of issues. I wonder whether the Minister might be able to comment on that request. Mr Virendra Sharma: I thank my hon. Friend for Hon. Members have touched on issues that persist to giving way. I am sorry that I will not get the chance to this day about employment, whereby Sikhs are still contribute in more detail. Does he agree that when we discriminated against and find problems in the workplace listen to all the contributions here, read the history and in relation to the turban. As a former construction philosophy of Sikhism, we understand that when a true worker myself, I know that that is something that has Sikh leaves their country of origin to go to other been addressed on construction sites, but there are still countries, they carry with them their social values, the a number of ongoing cases. I think that one relates to a teachings of the guru and the traditions of the past? lorry driver who is in danger of losing his job, and there That is why when they go to other countries, their have been a number of other incidents as well. I wonder contribution to the society is based on the teachings of whether the Minister could say a little about dealing the guru. with those employment rights issues for the Sikh community. Another issue that I have been told there is concern Chris Williamson: My hon. Friend makes a really about in the Sikh community is in relation to the important point. All communities could learn a significant funding for Sikh organisations. The feeling is that it is lesson from the way in which the Sikh community increasingly difficult for voluntary organisations in the conducts itself. Sikh community to obtain funding for their activities My right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton from the national lottery, other trust funds and so on. South East (Mr McFadden) also made an important Could the Minister say anything about that issue? contribution. He talked about how the Sikh community My final question relates to the issue of security illustrates the benefits of immigration. He made the at airports. I am grateful to the hon. Member for point that very often the immigration debate is a negative Wolverhampton South West for clarifying the latest 93WH British Sikh Community13 MARCH 2013 British Sikh Community 94WH

[Chris Williamson] to make it absolutely clear that we certainly hope that we will see that contribution reflected in the commemoration situation in terms of the EU regulations on this issue. of the anniversary of world war one which will be Could the Minister give us any information about whether happening shortly. the Government will continue to monitor this situation? My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton It is good news that the regulations have been updated, South West called Sikhism a “cool” religion. As he but it is important that we continue to monitor the situation explained, there are good reasons within Sikhism why to ensure that those more enlightened regulations are individuals are called to serve their local communities actually being implemented on the ground. and British society in general, because the faith requires believers to put others before self and to stand up for 10.51 am the vulnerable. If someone goes to a gurdwara anywhere in the world, they can get a free meal. Sikhism recognises TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforCommunities the existence of injustices, and it reminds Sikhs of their and Local Government (Mr Don Foster): Mr Owen, it is a individual and corporate responsibilities to work for a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. fairer society. That is why Sikhs are often in the forefront I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford of serving their communities. There is a community (Gareth Johnson) on securing this debate, and I join centre in Handsworth that is run by Sikhs, which is a him in congratulating the hon. Member for Leeds North particularly good example of that service. East (Fabian Hamilton) and all other members of the As we have heard from a number of other hon. all-party group on British Sikhs. And to respond Members from all parties, Sikhs continue to be prominent immediately to the hon. Member for Derby North in the field of education. The five Sikh schools that we (Chris Williamson), I am more than happy to have a have—one each in Hayes and Southall in London, one meeting with the Sikh Council UK. in Slough and two in Birmingham—are doing a fantastic May I also just say that, with time so short, I will not job. Three of the five are rated by Ofsted as being have the opportunity to reflect on the contributions of outstanding. so many Members who have spoken today? However, it The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John has been absolutely clear that the speakers in the debate, McDonnell) referred to the Guru Nanak Sikh academy from all parties, have gone out of their way to celebrate in Hayes, which is doing some fantastic work, including the enormous contribution that members of the British providing a number of free courses for members of the Sikh community make to this country. I am delighted to community. In addition, the chairman of that academy be able to join them by making a similar expression of has founded a number of institutions in India to help praise, thanks and congratulations to the Sikh community the poor and underprivileged there. for its contribution. It is not very hard to see the enormous value that Sikhs are also very much at the heart of inter-faith individual Sikhs bring to our community. There are activity in this country, because Sikhism teaches the successful Sikhs all around us, including, obviously, my equality of all human beings, including the total equality hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South of women, and Sikh gurus require their followers to West (Paul Uppal). There is also Lord Singh of Wimbledon, show respect for different faiths and different ways of the first practising turbaned Sikh in Parliament, and life. That is why we can note with great pleasure and there are Sikhs high up in the legal profession, including pride the contribution of Sikhs to bodies such as the Judge Mota Singh and Rabinder Singh QC, who has Inter Faith Network for the UK and in initiatives such been made a member of the Supreme Court. And there as the inter-faith week and the Near Neighbours are noted Sikh sportsmen: obviously Monty Panesar; programme. Sikhs were also very active in 2012’s Year and the 101-year-old marathon runner Fauja Singh. of Service activities, with a range of project around the theme of “bringing sweetness”. We also look forward to We know that, according to the 2011 census, there are Sikhs participating enthusiastically in Together in Service, about 423,000 Sikhs in Britain, which is just under 1% a new three-year project that is designed to encourage, of the population. However, as so many Members have celebrate and link up faith-based volunteering, which already said, Sikhs are punching well above their weight: will begin later this year. in both national and local government; in the professions; and in industry and commerce. As we have heard, this Government believe—as previous Governments did—that not only should everyone be Mr Virendra Sharma: The Minister has just mentioned free to follow their faith freely so long as they do not many professions, but there is also the medical profession. interfere with the freedom of others, but that religious Two of my constituents, Professor Jaspal Singh Kooner faith and the fact that it motivates believers to carry out and Dr Amarjit Singh Sethi, are leading cardiologists at good work are things to be actively celebrated. Ealing hospital and they have contributed enormously We have already heard how, with cross-party support, to the medical profession. Vaisakhi is marked in Parliament and at No. 10 with receptions. We have also heard about the huge attendances Mr Foster: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman at Nagar Kirtans, with the processional singing of hymns for that intervention, and I am sure that there are other through the community. professions that I have also missed out in which there Freedom of worship is core to the British way of life. have been major contributions from members of the Public displays of religious belief, such as the wearing British Sikh community. of faith symbols and clothing or the maintenance of As other Members have mentioned, Sikhs are also dietary codes, are all vital aspects of religious freedom renowned for their military skills, with a proud record and we are keen to do all we can to support that of service in the British Army in two world wars. I want freedom. The previous Government did excellent work 95WH British Sikh Community 13 MARCH 2013 96WH in this field, but we recognise that there have been First World War Centenary problems. As we have heard, some European countries have all too often required Sikhs to remove their turbans during airport security screening, which Sikhs find offensive. 11 am Until last month, the European regulations required the hand-searching of turbans if a wearer caused the metal Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): It is a detector to go off. I am delighted that, as a result of pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen. work done in this country, we have now been able to As this debate is, in part, about remembrance, I wonder make the change to enable the alternative system of whether I might ask the House briefly to join me in passing electronic swabs over the surface of headwear remembering the life and public service of Councillor to be used. As requested, we are now working very Peter Wood, who was until recently leader of Ashford closely with our European colleagues to persuade them borough council. Sadly, Peter died earlier this month to adopt the same system. and his funeral is being held in Ashford today. As well We are also looking at a number of the other issues as being leader of the council, he was ward member for that have been raised today. For example, I was interested the Saxon Shore ward in my constituency. to hear the concern raised about a member of the Sikh This is the second time that I have raised such a community not being allowed to serve on a jury because debate in the House. I held an Adjournment debate in he was wearing the kirpan. If the hon. Member for the main Chamber about two and a half years ago. This Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar), who raised that particular subject is of great importance to the country and of case, can provide me with details about it, I would like great significance to my constituency. I should declare to take it up. an interest: I am chairman of the Step Short first world The issue of hard hats was also raised and I assure war charity in Folkestone, which I will mention later. hon. Members that my Department is now working Many families in this country are touched by the first with all the other agencies involved with that particular world war in one way or another, through the service of issue to see if we can make progress and enable Sikh a relative or ancestor. Fortunately, my family did not turban-wearers not to have to wear hard hats in certain lose a family member during that war, but many families places of work. were touched in that way. My great grandfather, George I am delighted to be able to sum up this debate, which Lovell, volunteered when he was 16 and was held back has shown how much cross-party support there is for from active service until he was 18, when he was a driver the huge contribution that is made by the Sikh community in the Royal Army Service Corps. in this country. British Sikhs are among some of our greatest business men and professionals, and they are a Like many hon. Members and millions of people in peaceful, high-achieving community from whom we all the country, I took the opportunity at school to take have much to learn. This has been an excellent debate. part in tours of first world war battlefields, visiting the I am delighted to have participated in it briefly, and I great Tyne Cot cemetery at Passchendaele and the wish everybody a happy Vaisakhi. extraordinary trenches that remain at Beaumont Hamel, where the Newfoundlanders took such severe losses on the first day of the battle of the Somme. I attended an interesting event in Parliament on Monday, at which the Prime Minister was joined by the Taoiseach, Enda Kenny, at a meeting where they mentioned that they intend to visit together a first world war battlefield cemetery for British and Irish soldiers who fought and died side by side. The first world war is of great significance to many people, in respect of memorial and trauma, and of memory of that time. I was touched by a quotation from one of my predecessors as Member of Parliament for the Folkestone and Hythe area, Sir Philip Sassoon, who was MP during the first world war and also the political secretary to Douglas Haig. Sir Philip wrote to a friend during the war, saying, “would one ever have believed before the war that one could have stood for one single instant the load of pain and anxiety which is now one’s daily breath? I find that although I can study the casualty list without ever seeing a name I know—for all my friends have been killed—yet nevertheless one feels as much for others as for oneself—just a blur of grief: and one wakes every morning feeling one can hardly bear to live through the day.” It is in many ways almost impossible for us now to understand what it must have been like to live through the first world war and to have seen such terrible losses—people’s friends and family, and those they had grown up with and known all their life—and to understand the terrific social change that took place as a result of that conflict. 97WH First World War Centenary13 MARCH 2013 First World War Centenary 98WH

Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): Is my hon. Friend When considering the first world war centenary, we aware of the innovation by Greenhithe Royal British should also remember that this was a global war. The Legion branch in my constituency, which came up with conflict was not isolated in the western front, massive the idea of scattering poppy seeds across the region and though the losses were in the trenches of France and is selling the seeds? This idea has been endorsed by the Belgium. British and Commonwealth armed forces also Prime Minister. We hope to see, during the commemoration served at Gallipoli and in Palestine, and we should of the centenary of the outbreak of the first world war, remember the great role of troops drawn from the fields of red poppies in the local area, which will be a empire, particularly the British Indian Army, which poignant reminder of all the sacrifice. sent many hundreds of thousands of men to fight for the British empire, across the world and particularly on Damian Collins: That excellent project demonstrates the western front. Their stories, which are in many ways the great wealth of interest that there is throughout the protected and preserved by the Commonwealth War country in communities doing their own, different things Graves Commission around the world, are an important to mark the centenary of the first world war. part of the centenary. I see something every year in my constituency that Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Does the hon. brings home the sacrifices of the first world war for Gentleman agree that the worst thing we could do in future generations, today. At the military cemetery at commemorating the first world war is to repeat what Shorncliffe, on Canada day, school children from local Wilfred Owen called, primary schools sit by and place flowers on the graves “The old Lie: Dulce et Decorum est of the many Canadian soldiers buried there, marking a Pro patria mori”? commitment made by the town at the end of the first world war to the families of those troops to tend their We should remember this as an immense human tragedy, graves. It is touching to see young people only 10 or the main consequence of which was the second world 11 years old sitting by the grave of someone who was war. perhaps only 18 when they were killed. That is a great way of bringing home to young people today the sacrifices Damian Collins: The hon. Gentleman makes an that people made. important point. The significance of the centenary should not be the celebration of a military victory, for no military victory is final and lasting—certainly not the Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): I thank the first world war—but of the sacrifice of millions who hon. Gentleman for securing this debate. I refer hon. fought in the conflict and those who worked on the Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ home front as well, many of whom died. That should Financial Interests. challenge us to work and strive not to create the war The hon. Gentleman rightly talks about the that will end all wars, but to reach a point where war is commemorative role that many organisations play. Will no longer necessary. The first world war did not achieve he join me in commending the McCraes Battalion Trust that. in Edinburgh, which built Edinburgh’s only war memorial The hon. Gentleman is right: this is not a celebration on the Somme, at Contalmaison? The trust now takes of victory, but a commemoration of the sacrifice of groups of children out there, to ensure that the sacrifice millions of people. That sacrifice has been written about that people in Edinburgh made during the great war is and debated many times. People have written about the never forgotten. lost generation that was killed during the first world war and about the brilliant lives that were ended. Many Damian Collins: The hon. Gentleman makes a good Members of Parliament fought and died. The Prime point. The project that he mentions sounds excellent, Minister, Herbert Asquith, lost his son, Raymond Asquith. and it touches on an important aspect of the first world The great sacrifice of the pals regiments, many of war centenary—namely, the work that can be done to which were created by people who worked and lived preserve memorials. The Government are making funds together and joined up, fighting and dying together. available, through the Heritage Lottery Fund and English The high death toll in certain communities, famously, in Heritage, to support the restoration of war memorials. pals regiments such as the Accrington pals, which lost In Dover, adjacent to my constituency, there was an so many during the battle of the Somme, meant that excellent project called the Dover war memorial project, during the second world war we no longer recruited in in which volunteers, students and children conducted that way, so that communities did not suffer such terrible research into the lives of people named on the war losses. memorial. That gave them a real sense of connection There were incredible losses on the home front as the and helped them to see that the names carved in the first world war became more mechanised. On 25 May stone belonged to real, living people. 1917, an air raid in Folkestone was focused on Tontine The project led to the rediscovery of Walter Tull, who street, near the harbour. German planes that had hoped was born in Folkestone and is commemorated on the but failed to reach London dropped their bombs before Dover memorial. He had the distinction of being the re-crossing the channel. In that single air raid, 71 people first black officer to be commissioned in the British were killed, 27 of whom were children. We live in a time Army. He was commissioned in the field during the first of war when modern technology makes the most world war, having previously been the first black outfield devastating loss possible at the touch of a button, but player to play professional football in Britain. His story such a loss of life on one day at home, away from the had been forgotten, and it was rediscovered through the battlefield, was a truly shocking occurrence for people project. Such projects are an important way to mark who lived through it. the centenary. 99WH First World War Centenary13 MARCH 2013 First World War Centenary 100WH

The Heritage Lottery Fund is making funds available outbreak of the war in August 2014, they want to invite for community projects across the country to support the country to Folkestone to be part of that story again. remembrance and the education of new generations For the past two or three years, we have organised a about the sacrifices of the war. The Prime Minister said memorial march along the route that the soldiers took in his speech last year at the Imperial War museum that down the road of Remembrance into the harbour. We funds were being made available to support schools to hold that march on the first Sunday of August each send tour parties to the battlefields, so that children year, close to the anniversary of the outbreak of the could see for themselves the sights of the war. Giving war, to remember the story of the men’s departure. people the opportunity to walk in the soldiers’ footsteps People go to the battlefields of France and Flanders to and to gain some understanding of their lives and the walk in the soldiers’ footsteps, and they can also do that sacrifices that they made is an important part of the by taking part in the march in Folkestone. commemoration process. It is incredible not only that The Prime Minister wrote an article on Remembrance the battlefield tours continue to this day—the battlefields Sunday for The Sunday Telegraph, in which he set out of the western front receive about 500,000 visitors a some of the Government’s plans to mark the centenary. year from around the world, a great number of whom Those plans include the great investment in the Imperial come from this country—but that they are growing in War museum, where new first world war galleries will popularity. Visits to the Menin gate to hear the last post be opening. He also noted that there would be “big being played and visits to the Somme memorial at outdoor commemorations” to mark the outbreak of Thiepval are growing in number, which shows the huge the war. In particular, he mentioned the large outdoor appetite for them. event that we are planning in Folkestone, which, he I want to talk briefly about the Step Short project in noted, is my constituency. Folkestone was a focal point in the “the port where so many left for France.” war effort, and 10 million servicemen passed through We look forward to welcoming people to Folkestone the town during the first world war. It was the major on 4 August 2014. Folkestone is fundraising to place a port of embarkation to, and debarkation from, the new memorial arch at the top of the Leas, at the start of trenches of the western front. It was home to tens of the road of Remembrance. People can walk under the thousands of refugees from Belgium and tens of thousands arch and remember the soldiers’ journey. That is an more servicemen from Canada, who were based at important part of the first world war remembrance Shorncliffe barracks just outside the town. Most families process. We are also raising money for a visitor centre to in the country will have an ancestor who was in Folkestone tell that story. It is important for future generations to at some point during the war. be able to understand that ordinary people—people like Some of those people are recorded in the visitors’ them from all over the country, and people from around books that were kept by two sisters who operated a the world who came to this country to fight on our temporary canteen on the harbour arm, from which behalf—made incredible sacrifices during the first world they gave free cups of tea and bits of cake to men who war. It is a story that future generations must tell, and boarded the boats. Lloyd George, Churchill, Haig and we must give them all the chance to participate in it. private soldiers in the Army signed the books, which I mentioned earlier the expression “the lost generation”, provide a great living memory of those men’s stories which is often used to refer to the sacrifice people made and give us a date, time and place, so that we know during the first world war. I believe that Gertrude Stein where they were at that point during the war. For some originally coined the expression; certainly, Ernest men, signing those books may have been their last act Hemingway credited her with having done so. He used on English soil, to which they would never return it at the beginning of his book “The Sun Also Rises”, because they would make the supreme sacrifice in the which was published in the early 1920s. In it, he quoted trenches. from Ecclesiastes, which in some ways touches on the After the first world war, Slope road in Folkestone, point made by the hon. Member for Newport West which ran from the Leas on the cliff tops in the town (Paul Flynn): down to the harbour, was renamed the road of “One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh; Remembrance, because it was the road down which so but the earth abideth forever… The sun also ariseth, and the sun many men marched. As they marched down the steep goeth down, and hasteth to the place where he arose.” road with heavy packs on their backs, the command of That reminds us that, in our remembrance, we must “step short” was given, which told them to break their also look forward; that each generation has an obligation steps. Marching downhill on the cobbles, wearing boots to defend the freedoms that were fought for in the first and carrying heavy packs must have been quite an world war and to seek peace in the world; and that each exercise even on a dry day, but the soldiers managed it. is challenged to do that in its own way. Folkestone was the last stage in the journey that they I look forward to hearing from the Minister more made to the trenches. about the Government’s plans for the centenary. During In the inter-war period, a memorial arch was constructed the first world war centenary, as we look back and over the road around the time of the coronation of remember, we should also look forward, learning from George VI. On it was written simply, “In our rejoicing, that terrible period in our history, to how we can work we still remember them.” That sentiment is an important to secure a more peaceful world for future generations. part of the remembrance process, and it reminds us that future generations have an obligation to remember the sacrifices that people made. 11.17 am Many people had forgotten the story of Folkestone The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media during the first world war, and the community have got and Sport (Hugh Robertson): I welcome you the Chair, together to tell it once more. For the centenary of the Mr Owen. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member 101WH First World War Centenary13 MARCH 2013 First World War Centenary 102WH

[Hugh Robertson] Damian Collins: It is believed to be the first major civilian air raid, but I should point out that today is the for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) on securing anniversary of a Zeppelin raid in Hartlepool in 1918, the debate. He is not quite my constituency neighbour, which killed eight people. but he is pretty close to it, and of course he is a fellow Kent MP. As he spoke, I was reflecting that many of us Hugh Robertson: I stand corrected. are familiar with Folkestone. I suspect that the hon. We touched on Shorncliffe camp. I did not know that Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis), who speaks Walter Tull was born in Folkestone. I think we all know for the Opposition, may have done some training at his extraordinary story. Rather encouragingly, when we Shorncliffe camp, as I have. Many of us did our Northern were in opposition, I visited a community scheme at Ireland training there. I did not know about the link Tottenham Hotspur as part of black history month—he with the Canadians, but it is good to hear that that is played initially at Spurs. The area is clearly quite a still celebrated in the way my hon. Friend outlined. I testing one educationally, and all the children were apologise for not being the Under-Secretary of State for working on a project about that extraordinary man Culture, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member who, as my hon. Friend said, was born in Folkestone for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), who would normally respond and, having played professional football for Spurs and to such a debate. He is away at the moment, but I hope other clubs, became the first black officer on the western that, with my Kent and military connections, my responding front. I think that he was put up for a military cross to the debate will not be too much of a hurdle. I would towards the end of the war. He is an extraordinary like to associate myself with the remarks that my hon. figure, and not the only sporting figure from my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe made, Friend’s part of the world. Colin Blythe, the cricketer, most appropriately, about Peter Wood. who is commemorated at the county ground, was another. Rather than running through a prepared speech, I Ian Murray: As the Minister has mentioned sporting will pick up some of my hon. Friend’s comments and icons, I wonder whether he has read the wonderful detail how the Government might support the efforts he book about McCrae’s battalion. It was born from the is making. Part of the Government’s approach is to set Heart of Midlothian football club team, which signed out a general strategy around remembrance, youth and up en masse in 1914, leading tens of thousands of education, and then, in a sense, to encourage a thousand supporters to sign up. Because of that the team lost the flowers to bloom. The schemes that have been mentioned championship by a point. in Edinburgh and Folkestone are perfect examples of what we hope will happen. Hugh Robertson: The lovely thing about these debates is the fact that we always learn something new, and that I congratulate my hon. Friend on his chairmanship is a wonderful piece of sporting trivia. The hon. Gentleman of the Step Short campaign, which sounds like a fantastic has reminded me of something important, which I example of what I am talking about. Those of us who thought might be what he was going to say in his have worn Army boots—especially those with studs on intervention: next year provides us with a unique the bottom, which soldiers would have worn in those opportunity north of the border, because of the days—will know just how difficult it would have been to Commonwealth games. The Department is considering march down a hill, especially with a heavy pack and how to make use of the presence of many Commonwealth particularly if it was raining, as it often does in Kent at leaders and athletes in this country to mark the certain times of year. It is fantastic to see that that is Commonwealth contribution. My hon. Friend has being commemorated. I had not really considered that mentioned that, and I freely admit to having been a Folkestone was the major port of embarkation, but that little slow in picking it up early on when it was being was very much the case. I encourage my hon. Friend to discussed in the Department. We should not be for a keep the Department for Culture, Media and Sport moment too parochial about the anniversary. This country closely informed about the project and to see what we must recognise the enormous Commonwealth contribution. can do to help him and the town as it undertakes those I was struck, when I went to Australia just before the commemorations. Olympics to launch the GREAT campaign—for a weekend, actually; oh joy—by what a seminal moment Gallipoli I was struck by my hon. Friend’s remarks about is for Australians. It was the first time that they came school visits. I think that for many of us who have together as a nation to fight for Australia, and Gallipoli visited the first world war battlefields, however much we is extraordinarily important to them, as places such as might know about the military, or conflict, their sheer Palestine are for other countries. size and scale is what is striking. That strikes me every We have talked a little about the Government’s approach. time I go there. In my regiment three squadrons were It is concentrated around remembrance, youth and wiped out within half an hour, at a place called Zandvoorde education. There is £53 million of funding available, ridge. Many regiments will have had similar experiences, including £5.3 million for schools. The Heritage Lottery and the striking scale of what happened makes it important Fund has open grants of £10 million. The centrepiece that later generations should be reminded. My hon. of what is happening is of course work being done by Friend referred to the £5.3 million scheme that will the Imperial War museum, and I encourage all hon. enable a teacher and two pupils from every secondary Members to become acquainted with that. As I have school to visit a first world war battlefield. said, the idea is to set up an umbrella under which other The story of the air raid in Folkestone is a quite well projects can bloom. known Kent story, and, as my hon. Friend said, a Ian Murray: Has the Minister had representations shocking one. I guess that it may have been the first from the Scottish Government about their plans? large-scale air raid of any sort in this country. I understand that many hon. Members have made 103WH First World War Centenary13 MARCH 2013 First World War Centenary 104WH representations to them, as have many of my constituents, Hugh Robertson: Unsurprisingly, I agree with my about holding commemorative events, but they seem hon. Friend. He is right to mention the National Army reluctant to do so. The Commonwealth games would museum. Of course other single service museums and seem to be an opportunity, and, if the Minister has not the National Maritime museum have plans, including received any representations, will he contact his counterparts the use of a boat. I should also be amazed if the Buffs, in the Scottish Government to encourage them to do as they were at the time, did not have a particular what is right for 2014? Kent-based exhibition, and I would encourage such plans. Hugh Robertson: Personally, I have not had that conversation, but that is perhaps not surprising, as I am Paul Flynn: One of the documents produced by the not in day-to-day charge of those matters. However, I Government in anticipation of the commemoration have, if not quite daily, then weekly, contact with the quotes a poem by a young man who rejoices at being Scottish Government, about the Commonwealth games. alive at such an important historical moment. The poet The matter is a devolved one, so it is down to them, but died within a fortnight of writing it. Can we have an I think that I would say, on the basis of my decade of assurance that the commemoration will be marked less military service—and I am sure that the hon. Member with Rupert Brooke and more with Siegfried Sassoon for Barnsley Central would agree—that Scotland is the and Wilfred Owen? home of some of the proudest and finest regiments in the British Army. They have made an enormous Hugh Robertson: I take the hon. Gentleman’s point to contribution in every conflict that this country has an extent. The right balance is necessary, and everyone undertaken, in pretty much every combat zone where it will understand that. I am not in a position now to has ever fought. I think for most who have memories of decide what script, and which poet’s words, will be used, the British Army, the earliest ones are of being shouted and I would not want to presume to do so. Those are at by someone with a Scottish voice. I would expect the properly decisions for the Imperial War museum, and Scottish Government to treat the occasion in the fashion others, who will make judgments, and whom I trust to that it warrants. I will be talking to them about the get the balance right. Commonwealth games, and the hon. Gentleman will I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone have our full support in encouraging them to take the and Hythe, and the other hon. Members who have anniversary seriously. contributed to the debate, and commend him on the work that is being done in Folkestone. I assure him that Damian Collins: There is a great deal of good work the Department and I—on a county basis as a near being done by the regimental museums, as part of the constituency neighbour—will do all we can to support centenary commemoration. My right hon. Friend and I that work. He has made a strong case for Folkestone to have both mentioned the Imperial War museum, which have a unique part in the commemoration, as a major is a central heritage museum, but I also want to mention port of embarkation, and I wish him the best of luck the regimental museums and the National Army museum. with his plans. I am particularly grateful that they have decided to bring some of their first world war collections to Folkestone 11.29 am for an exhibition in summer 2014. Sitting suspended. 105WH 13 MARCH 2013 Probation Service 106WH

Probation Service The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Jeremy Wright): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. I shook my head because, as he will know from his close reading of the consultation document, [MR DAVID CRAUSBY in the Chair] the 16 contract package areas are a starting point, and not necessarily a finishing point. We will listen carefully to what people say to us during the consultation. 2.30 pm Mr George Mudie (Leeds East) (Lab): I am delighted Mr Mudie: I will touch on that later in my speech, but to have secured this debate, but I am more delighted to I am interested in the Minister’s comments. have the opportunity to introduce it under your It is interesting that the private sector will be distinguished chairmanship, Mr Crausby.You have already commissioned, not locally by the individual probation informally warned me to behave, and I promise that I trusts, but from Whitehall. The Government justify will. decimating this 105-year-old, well regarded service—which This is an important debate that will be of vital has received all the commendations I have read out—at interest to Members, whatever their constituency. I intend considerable risk to public safety, on the specific grounds to direct my remarks to the consultation paper, of reducing reoffending rates. “Transforming Rehabilitation,” which the Government see as a revolution in the way we manage offenders, with Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I congratulate my particular emphasis on the problem of reoffending. hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Before I go into detail, it would be remiss of me not Humberside probation trust has a gold award, too. to pay tribute to the probation service’s extremely The current level of trust and information exchange professional, dedicated and hard-working staff. Those between prisons, probation staff, police and others involved words exactly describe the staff in West Yorkshire. I in the management of risk has taken a long time to find the Leeds staff to be first class, and they do a establish, and they fear that that might be compromised first-class job. I am sure Members echo my comments if medium-risk and low-risk offenders are managed for the staff in their areas. It is difficult to reconcile the outside the public sector. Does my hon. Friend agree proposal to transfer some 70% of the probation service’s that such fragmentation of risk management is a real work load to other providers with the quality of its difficulty for the future? present endeavours. In 2011, the probation service met or exceeded all the Ministry of Justice targets. In October 2011, the service won the British Quality Foundation Mr Mudie: My hon. Friend has taken a page out of gold medal for excellence, which is given to an organisation my speech, to the great relief of everyone present. in recognition of its Levels of trust and information exchange are key, and “continued commitment to sustained excellence over a number of they have grown bit by bit as the relationships, and the years.” benefits of those relationships, have grown. That is now to be swept aside, with private sector firms being forced The award came with a commendation: on the trusts. “The Probation Service comprises 35 independent probation trusts annually supervising a caseload of some 247,000 offenders. The successful pursuit of continuous improvement has confirmed Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): I commend the hon. that they are on the right path to achieving and sustaining Gentleman on securing this debate. I hear what he has excellence and essentially to being the best providers of these to say, but does he not recognise that reoffending rates essential services.” are far too high and that, as a result, we need to The award was noted by the Minister’s predecessor, the consider the structural reasons why that is happening? hon. Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt), who said: We must consider how to bring about change and “This prestigious award recognises the professionalism of probation innovation in the way the probation service functions. staff and the excellence of their work. This very public recognition of not just what they do but, perhaps more importantly, how well they do it, will be a source of pride for probation staff.” Mr Mudie: The hon. Lady anticipates page 2, which I am just about to start. Members might be even more impressed when they learn that all that excellent work was carried out against a background of falling staff numbers. In 2011-12, Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ there was a fall of just under 7%. A total of 1,313 full- Co-op): Further to the previous intervention, does my time equivalent staff were cut from the service, and hon. Friend agree that one of the problems is the there was a 10%, or £80 million, cut in resources over a premise on which the Government are making their slightly longer period from, I think, 2009. judgments? On 9 January 2013, The Guardian reported I will address the Government’s proposals against that the Secretary of State for Justice had said that that background of a dedicated, professional service. “a radical overhaul is needed to tackle the high reoffending rates The proposals include privatising some 70% of probation with 58% of short-sentenced prisoners reoffending within a year service work; introducing, for the first time in the field and half a million crimes committed each year by released of criminal justice, a payment-by-results scheme for prisoners.” private companies that receive the new contracts; and The actual reoffending rate of those subject to state abolishing the 35 probation trusts and replacing them, supervision—they are not short-term prisoners but those initially, with 16 geographic units. [Interruption.] The sentenced to more than 12 months—has dropped by Minister shakes his head. It is rumoured that the figure 1.55 percentage points to below 10%. Does that not is now down as low as six or eight. underline the wrongness of the Government’s approach? 107WH Probation Service13 MARCH 2013 Probation Service 108WH

Mr Mudie: My hon. Friend has taken the second part unarguably be improved, and that the proposals to of page 2 by making an important point that I was just address short-sentence prisoners are long overdue and about to address. welcome. I have no dogmatic opposition to the use of It is no secret, and it is accepted, that reoffending the private and voluntary sector in rehabilitation. My rates are high. The figures for the period between April concerns are overwhelmingly about public safety, protecting 2010 and March 2011 show that more than one in four the existing good work of the probation service, questioning criminals reoffended within a year, which is a reoffending the suggested and untested payment-by-results methods rate of 26.8%, marginally up from 26.3% in the previous that will be introduced to the private sector, ensuring year. Over the 10 years in which records have been kept, that management and structure changes are sensibly the reoffending rate has gone down. modified to suit the proposals and, importantly in this age of austerity, ensuring that the costs are acceptable. It is sad but interesting that the Secretary of State As my right hon. Friend pointed out, the costs are used a higher figure when making his statement to the starting to worry the Treasury. House. He said that, in 2010, “nearly half” of those leaving prison reoffended. He was correct—the reoffending Against that backdrop, it is critical that these large-scale rate for those leaving prison is around 47%— but that reforms of our rehabilitation and probation policy are suggests the overall reoffending rate is double what it well thought through, investigated from all angles and actually is. It would have been more straightforward brought together on a basis that puts evidence first. had he used the 26.8% figure to justify the programme. What is before us is none of those things. It is hasty, ill thought through, dogmatic, cobbled together and risky. It is interesting that the Ministry of Justice’s annual I have indicated my concerns, and I will expand on figures break down those figures. Some 26,000 of the them. 56,000 people who left prison reoffended, but 18,000 of those 26,000 were not covered by the probation service First, the Secretary of State describes the approach because they were serving sentences of less than 12 months, as revolutionary, but there is a clear need to demonstrate which is the point my hon. Friend the Member for that the policy changes are evidence-based. The former Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) made. If Secretary of State, the right hon. and learned Member the aim is to eliminate or reduce reoffending, why must for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), started a number of pilot the Secretary of State use a figure attractive to him schemes in that area of work, which were abandoned rather than giving a true reflection of the situation? within days after the present Secretary of State took office. When questioned by the Select Committee on Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Justice, the present Secretary of State admitted that he Hillsborough) (Lab): I commend my hon. Friend on was unable to provide MPs with any evidence to support securing this debate, and I apologise to him, to Members his change in policy. He excused his peremptory ending and to you, Mr Crausby, for not being able to stay all of the pilot schemes by stating that it the way through. Does my hon. Friend think that that is “will take us much of the rest of this decade to see through to a why the Treasury is so worried about the proposal? conclusion, evaluating the data and coming up with an analysis. Would it not have been more logical to have tested and We are talking about the core principle of trusting the professionals and making them take a bit of the risk themselves”. piloted the proposal for offenders serving less than 12 months with the probation service, given its growing We are less worried about the professionals than about expertise in working with the social enterprise and the public taking the risk of the proposals. voluntary sector, in defined areas that coincide with When pressed by the shadow Secretary of State to police areas, so that people could work together? Instead produce evidence to justify, for example, the controversial we have prime contracts, detached from the community payment-by-results proposal, the Secretary of State derided and the problem, with Serco and G4S taking over what he termed the Opposition’s obsession with pilots, virtually all public services. saying revealingly: “Sometimes those in government just have to believe in something Mr Mudie: My right hon. Friend raises a number of and do it”.—[Official Report, 9 January 2013; Vol. 556, c. 318.] points that I hope I will have time to touch on. They are That warms the heart, but it worries us to death. all valid, not because they are in my speech but because they are important points about the attack on the Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Does my probation service. hon. Friend not agree that it is especially concerning Any real scrutiny of the Ministry of Justice figures that the Justice Secretary has decided to proceed without demonstrates that the reasons for our disappointing gathering the evidence, given that perhaps the best reoffending rates are complicated and numerous, but it example of a similar programme under this Government— is wrong and unfair to place them at the door of the the Work programme—seems to be performing probation service. As I have said, a major proportion of spectacularly badly? reoffending is outside the statutory remit of the probation service. I pay tribute to the proposal in the White Paper Mr Mudie: I agree with my hon. Friend; this is a bad to bring it within the probation service’s responsibilities example of a politician and a Department feeling right for the first time. It is one thing that I straightforwardly in proceeding on such a sensitive matter involving so applaud. much public risk. If the Minister feels that I am being Although I wish for improvement, due to those facts, unfair, the Select Committee and I would welcome it if and because of the quality and professionalism of the he produced the evidence to justify the risks inherent in probation service, I am not convinced that there is a the policy changes. pressing need for the upheaval suggested in the consultation The more the proposals are scrutinised, the more document, or for the pace and scale of change. I want to apparent it becomes that giving the majority of work to make it absolutely clear that reoffending figures should the private sector is the major objective. To my mind, it 109WH Probation Service13 MARCH 2013 Probation Service 110WH

[Mr Mudie] converted into 16 or perhaps six geographical areas, with all the dangers to the relationships that lie with is also a major cause of the opposition to the proposals that. Can the Minister spell out the reasons for cutting and of some of the difficulties in the consultation the trusts and the agreed criteria for the number of paper. I said earlier that I saw nothing amiss in involving replacements? the private and voluntary sector—it is, of course, already involved, and such arrangements have grown and are Meg Hillier: My hon. Friend touched on the benefits appreciated—but the scale and spread proposed are of having longevity in a service, so that the contacts are entirely different. The proposal to hand over 70% of the built up over time. Longevity should never be unchallenged work load of existing probation officers so quickly to by those of us who are public scrutineers, but it builds firms untrained in and unused to the work raises obvious up valuable expertise, as his own service has shown. questions. One of my concerns is that the reducing offending and The division of the work distribution—low and medium- supervision hubs—in the emerging jargon, ROSHs—could risk to the private sector, high-risk to the probation be open to competition every three or five years. Surely, service—looks clear on paper but ignores what professionals different organisations will therefore run the hubs every in the service say happens in real life. Medium-risk few years and the connections locally will be broken individuals can move dangerously quickly to being high when they have to start again. Is that a good thing for risk. If the signs are not spotted immediately, high risk local public safety? may escalate into dangerous behaviour with harm to individual and general public safety. That is a reality Mr Mudie: It is a very harmful thing. My hon. Friend that experienced probation officers live with every working makes a valuable point and allows me to take further hour, and it is a tribute to their skill and dedication that chunks out of my speech. I will not go further into the it does not happen on a wider scale. relationships, but I worry about how the contracts will It would be wiser to introduce the private sector, if it be procured and the effect on the existing small companies must be introduced on this scale, to deal initially with and voluntary organisations that work with the probation the low-risk group alone. Even if that were seen as service. I warn them that small companies and voluntary weakening the proposals’ profitability for the private organisations often cry out for privatisation or for sector, it would have the opportunity to take on the new procurement or break-up of public services, in the belief work load of prisoners serving less than 12-month that they will get the work, but they are dreaming. The sentences. That would create a clear division and stop Minister has provided some arrangements and money the overlap, which will certainly cause a problem. It to assist small companies to bid, but the reality is that could also help with the vagueness of the relationships the big international and national companies will get the and objectives of the differing cultures. contracts, while small companies will be pressed to the The private sector has the responsibility to ensure margin. that court or licence agreements are adhered to. Obvious situations arise when individuals are in breach, and they Nic Dakin: I underline that point. I have observed are processed by the probation officer, but in areas of probation working locally in the Scunthorpe area, and work where trust and relationships are all-important, it is doing so effectively with voluntary initiatives such the probation officer will have to accept the judgment of as MPower—small activities, voluntary organisations private sector personnel and haul the offender back to and private companies that are locally based. That local court. On the one hand, we have a public servant—a anchorage is crucial in dealing with the work and in professional—who has no monetary motivation and keeping our communities safe. I share my hon. Friend’s whose only objectives are public safety and working concern, which he is right to express. with integrity with the person on probation. On the other hand, under the proposals, we will end up with Mr Mudie: My hon. Friend makes another page of large private companies tied to a scheme of payment my speech unnecessary, which is a blessing. that will pay largely on results. One of the main things that we want the Minister to Is it impossible that, to protect or maximise payment, consider is the question of commissioning from Whitehall. the person on probation who could be a difficulty and a The urge to privatise and to bring in the big companies danger to that payment might necessarily be passed is distorting the remaining parts of the service and back to the probation officer? The probation officer causing real questions to be asked, one of which is would then have to pick up the relationship and process about procurement. Why are the contracts being specified the matter through court. from Whitehall? We would welcome an answer. Why are If the Minister does not accept that argument, he the existing public trusts not able to set up the contracts? should at least consider the divisions of the responsibilities Whitehall setting up contracts for probation trusts’ proposed. A more distinct role for the private sector is computers fills them with some worry, given its record needed, but one that allows distinct accountability, which on computers. is paramount in this sector. Every day, there is the A real problem is the business of payment by results, possibility of something going wrong, and any ambiguity which is allied to the intervention of my right hon. in responsibility is unwelcome. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Another reason to suggest that privatisation is uppermost Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett). Payment by results has in the Secretary of State’s mind is the winding up of the not been a feature of the culture or practice of the 35 trusts. Why are they being wound up? They have just Ministry of Justice, and the general feeling was in been praised as excellent; they have been doing the job favour of pilots if it were to be done; the Secretary of for 10 years; they have built themselves into the area State, however, cancelled the pilots. The Minister would and built up their relationships; but now they are being do everyone a favour if he indicated why that was so, 111WH Probation Service13 MARCH 2013 Probation Service 112WH apart from the mystical belief that the Secretary of offenders supervised by the probation service rose by State knows best. The introduction of payment by 53%, and there was a rise in staffing of more than 7,000. results in so sensitive an area is extremely worrying. The During the Labour Government’s time in office, we pilot schemes wisely set up by the previous Secretary of proved our commitment to the probation service and its State to test that out have now been scrapped, and it important work. The present Government are proposing would be good to know on what basis other than that to undo the hard-earned gains made under the Labour mystical belief. Government. Cuts to staffing and office closures will be I am sorry, Mr Crausby, that I have overrun my time, the only way to achieve the deep cuts, and that will although I have taken a few interventions. My last mean fewer probation orders made and the risk of an point, however, is on costs, which I make not so much to increased prison population. the Minister but to the Treasury. It has been confirmed I welcome the spread of best practice and the introduction that the Treasury is looking at costs. I understand that, of innovative ideas, such as bringing in outside expertise, and as a member of the Treasury Committee, I hope but experience shows that a headlong rush to privatisation that that is a good look. When the Ministry of Justice risks breaking up the system unnecessarily. Whatever budget is under severe threat, however, the Secretary of the Justice Secretary might believe for reasons of expediency, State is suggesting the pulling in of the 30,000 people a pilot is not some half-baked measure, nor a dirty who leave prison after small sentences; he is also suggesting word. It is how proper, well thought out, empirically doing that rapidly. That 25% increase in work load will driven policy is developed. Without it, we have what the involve a fair cost, especially as he is talking about Justice Secretary calls “believing”, and what everyone individual mentors and so on. Can the Minister tell us else calls “a step into the unknown”. Impervious to whether that policy has been agreed with the Chancellor? criticism from the Treasury, the National Audit Office Is the money available? It will be surprising if it is; it will and the probation service, he is taking a risk with a also be surprising, because the Treasury has publicly system that deals with vulnerable and sometimes dangerous voiced worries, whether the rest of the business has offenders, and in doing so is taking a risk with safety. been tested and costed. Untested payment by results Similarly, payment by results carries risks that the could cause not only operational but financial problems, Government seem to be ignoring. It is primarily dependent yet the Secretary of State has committed himself. on accurate data, which are not always easy to produce. I welcome the fact that people on 12-month sentences Furthermore, the data, when available and correct, are will be included and looked at for the first time. That often crude. If the Government believe that offenders will have a good effect on lowering the reoffending rate, least likely to reoffend and those most likely to reoffend but I find little to enthuse about in the rest of the are equals, private companies will simply focus on those proposals, other than recognising that they are another who pose the lowest risk to people, and ignore the most dash for privatisation and an attack on public services prolific offenders, to turn a profit. and public service finances. The system of payment by results is likely to lead to Mr David Crausby (in the Chair): I intend to call the fewer, larger corporations in the hunt for those contracts. first of the two Front Benchers at 15.40. I think that five Many smaller organisations, such as charities and local Members have indicated that they wish to speak, so if groups—the very people with the experience and networks they could keep their contributions reasonably short, I to work with offenders most effectively—will be unable hope to get everyone in. to risk non-payment and will have to withdraw. That would be a disaster, yet it is already being played out 2.58 pm under the guise of the Government’s Work programme, Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): I shall be which for many people has been a contradiction in brief, Mr Crausby. I thank my hon. Friend the Member terms. One reason for the Work programme’s failure is for Leeds East (Mr Mudie) for securing the debate, that smaller organisations have been squeezed out by which is important because our probation service faces larger firms, citing lack of viability. an imminent threat from a Government intent on cutting Finally, I am worried about removal of probation budgets at any cost to the service. trusts. Northumbria probation trust is my regional trust I will set out three core reasons why I am so concerned and covers my constituency. It was given the highest about the reforms: the cancellation of pilot schemes; performance rating for 2011-12 by the National Offender the effects of payment by results; and the removal of Management Service, and was declared to be exceptional. probation trusts. To start, I concede that I am somewhat The success of my local trust should be celebrated and perplexed by the Government proposals. Our probation copied; instead, it is being dismantled. The irony, which service is staffed by a dedicated army of workers, who is lost on few, is that a Government who proselytise do an important job keeping our community safe. It is localism are replacing local trusts with Whitehall vital and unglamorous work, away from the spotlight of centralisation. These reforms represent yet another false public and media attention. Indeed, as has been mentioned, economy from this Government, and I urge the Minister in 2011 the probation service deservedly won the British and the Secretary of State to think again. Quality Foundation’s gold medal for excellence in recognition of its outstanding and continued commitment to sustained excellence over several years. That is not to 3.3 pm be taken lightly. The probation service is a proven Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): I congratulate the hon. success story and I simply do not understand why the Member for Leeds East (Mr Mudie) on securing this Justice Secretary is intent on its dismemberment. debate. I come to it from a slightly different perspective. The previous Government recognised the importance There is no doubt that the probation service plays an of a secure and properly funded probation service. important role in our criminal justice system, and Funding rose by 70% in real terms, the number of particularly reoffending. I have already said that we all 113WH Probation Service13 MARCH 2013 Probation Service 114WH

[Priti Patel] not to be put off by some of the comments thus far. We should not generalise at this stage. Consultation is agree that reoffending levels are far too high. I believe taking place and I urge the Government to encourage the Government deserve great credit for focusing on all participants and players to come to the table and to reducing reoffending. It is extraordinary that 58% of be part of the solution. criminals who are sentenced to less than one year in prison are convicted of further offences within 12 months 3.8 pm of their release. That says something about all Governments, whether red, blue or coalition. The issue has not been Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): It is a pleasure, given sufficient focus and emphasis. Mr Crausby, to serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds East (Mr Mudie) on securing this important debate. I Meg Hillier: We all agree that the reoffending rate have spoken several times in the Chamber to raise overall is too high, but the 58% of short-sentence prisoners concerns about the Government’s latest reform proposals, who reoffend are not under the supervision of the and I am pleased to have this opportunity to speak probation service. The figure for those within the probation further about them. service has fallen. Any reoffending is too much, but it has fallen. Will the hon. Lady acknowledge that? It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott) who made some Priti Patel: I do not, because at the end of the day we incredibly important points, and highlighted the must also think about the other side in the criminal performance of her probation trust. We are discussing a justice system: victims. The point is that all the figures high-performing part of the public sector and the criminal are far too high and not enough has been done historically justice system. We are not saying that the probation to tackle reoffending. Victims are hit hard and they service could not be better, and we all agree with the suffer most from reoffending. They never feel satisfied if hon. Member for Witham (Priti Patel) that we want it to they are hit again and again by serial criminals who be better, but the core of my argument, which my hon. reoffend. Friends are also making, is that we should build on what is good and successful in the service and not Reoffending creates significant financial cost. The disrupt it as the Government’s proposals will. National Audit Office has estimated that the cost to the economy could be as high as £13 billion, and as much as Meg Hillier: The hon. Member for Witham (Priti three quarters of that could be attributed to the cost of Patel) talked about not making assumptions, and not short-sentence prisoners who served less than a year in dissing the idea that the voluntary sector and others prison. might play a part. The Opposition are not doing that. Reoffending is a serious problem. We have heard In fact, changes made over the years introduced other from the two speakers thus far that there is concern players to work alongside the probation service. My about the future of the probation service and its structure. concern is that there will be a wholesale sloughing off of It needs improvement, because if reoffending rates are people with talent and of local co-ordination. Nothing too high we must look at what has not been working in in the hon. Lady’s speech identified what the future the service. There are serious concerns, and we should would look like under the new model; it was about look at previous reports. In November 2009, inspectors hope, rather than evidence. Would my hon. Friend like looked into failings in the probation service in London to comment? in the aftermath of the Sonnex killings, and found that barely half of its cases were being handled at a level to Andy Sawford: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I ensure that the public were protected. want to talk about how such local organisations are working to good effect in Northamptonshire and about Only 20% of offenders are in employment at any my concern that that will be disrupted. As my hon. stage during the 13 weeks following their release, and Friend the Member for Leeds East made clear, our 40% claim out-of-work benefits in that period. We must concern is that payment by results in the criminal justice look to the future and the structural improvements that system is untested. The Lord Chancellor and Secretary the Government are introducing to reduce reoffending. of State for Justice, the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), was responsible for the Meg Hillier: Will the hon. Lady give way? Work programme, which is, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland Central has said, a contradiction Priti Patel: I am about to close. We must bring others in terms. Will the Minister explain why the Government into the system to add value. We have heard about are rushing headlong into the changes and ignoring the so-called privatisation, but it is right that the Government pilots, rather than learning from them and developing are encouraging new providers not just from the private reforms from them? sector, but from the third sector, to deliver services Our probation service does a good job in difficult under the payment-by-results model. circumstances and on stretched budgets, and the Charities have a role to play, with small and medium-sized Government rated the performance of every probation enterprises. We should not speak disparagingly of the trust as good or exceptional in 2011. After the proposed role that SMEs can play. The sweeping generalisation is changes, probation will deal with an extra 60,000 offenders that corporate players will automatically obtain contracts, a year. Will there be additional funding or will the but I believe that SMEs and the third sector, including current money be spread even more thinly, as my hon. charities, can provide innovative support to help offenders. Friend the Member for Leeds East suggested? Poorly We should not exclude opportunities for them to improve resourced support for rehabilitation will not effectively services. The Prince’s Trust, the Apex Trust and other help to reform offenders, and that poses a serious risk to trusts are doing great work, and I urge the Government our constituents’ safety. 115WH Probation Service13 MARCH 2013 Probation Service 116WH

The proposals have been strongly and widely criticised. staff may bid if they can set up an independent mutual, The National Association of Probation Officers said that but such a mutual would have to compete alongside they were other providers. As I understand it, probation trusts “being rushed through without proper thought to the consequences.” may not take the lead in the development of a mutual. NAPO pointed out: Will the Minister tell me whether that is correct? “Although these offenders are deemed medium and low risk of I have a number of specific questions, on which I will harm, they include…offenders at high risk of reoffending, such as write to the Minister. However, will probation trusts, as prolific burglars, chaotic drug users and gang members…who public bodies, be permitted to bid, either on their own require professional expertise in their management.” or with partners, for commercial contracts? Can they In Northamptonshire, such offenders currently receive set up special-purpose vehicles? Can they set up mutual that professional expertise. The Howard League for delivery organisations? Staff, including those in my Penal Reform calls the proposals “untested and opaque.” constituency, are proud of their probation service. They want to know what future they have, and whether they Kate Green: Does my hon. Friend share the concern will have opportunities to work around the reforms to that has been expressed about the Government’s plans? sustain the good work that has been done. If probation If contracted providers carry out supervision, but probation staff were to set up their own mutual delivery organisation takes the final decisions where there is a breach, probation to bid for commercial contracts for the delivery of officers will be taking decisions about whether there has probation services in the community, would they have been a breach, and how to respond to it, without having to resign from their employment with the probation had the benefit of a long-standing relationship with the trusts to take part in the competition? offender. To some degree, they will be making such According to informed estimates from various decisions in the dark. commentators, the reforms will result in the contracting out of about 70% of the work of a local probation trust. Andy Sawford: I agree with my hon. Friend. One The Ministry of Justice claims that there will be a role problem with the reforms is that they will threaten the for a surviving public probation service, but will that co-ordination and the relationships that different agencies not be a tiny outfit of perhaps 3,000 staff—similar to and professionals in the probation system have built up. the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support I want to share the views of three of my constituents Service, for example—which will operate as a courts who are officers in the local probation service. They are and public protection service? I am concerned that a “shocked to hear that the Justice Secretary intends to put out to rump of 3,000 staff will simply become a national agency tender the majority of the Service’s core work”. of NOMS, and the probation service as we know it will They are “astonished”, particularly because disappear. “the probation service is currently performing extremely well”. Finally, I want to touch on the success story in They also believe there is “no evidence”that the payment- Northamptonshire. The Minister will be aware of the by-results scheme will deliver,and they feel that the decision high performance of Northamptonshire. I do not want to dispute the claims that my hon. Friend the Member “has been made on purely ideological grounds”. for Sunderland Central has made about the performance One of the probation officers stated: of her probation trust, so let us just say that they are “I am fearful that if this plan proceeds it will be chaotic and both excellent. The Northamptonshire probation trust will compromise public protection”. is small, and it provides offender management services The probation service is operating in the context of for the benefit of people across Northamptonshire. It serious budget cuts, and we have to bear those in mind excels against the Ministry of Justice performance targets, as we consider the potential additional costs of the and the county has one of the lowest reoffending rates reforms. The budget allocated to probation trusts was in the country. cut from £820 million in 2011-12 to £814 million in The trust has certain features that are worth highlighting. 2012-13. That is part of a 23% cut to the Ministry of The staff work very effectively in partnership with other Justice over the spending review period. Probation services local organisations. For example, operational probation face serious cuts, and the total number of staff fell from and police staff work closely in the Northamptonshire 19,000 in 2010 to 17,800 in 2012. The Chancellor of the integrated offender management team to monitor the Exchequer confirmed yesterday that another spending most prolific offenders and to intervene where necessary. review is looming on the horizon, and we expect staff The trust’s strong working relationship with the police numbers to be squeezed further. is reflected in the multi-agency public protection I am concerned that, as public bodies, trusts will not arrangements, and issues relating to the most serious be allowed to bid on their own or with partners for offenders are well managed in Northamptonshire. There commercial contracts for the delivery of probation services, is strong strategic partnership working with the local because they will not be able to bear the financial risks authorities, with health providers and in areas such as involved in taking on a payment-by-results contract. housing and education. The offender management approach The financial objects of trusts specifically forbid them in Northamptonshire, which is working by reducing from taking on such a financial risk. I have spoken to reoffending, is about really strong local partnership the Minister about that, and I look forward to his working, and that points the way to the approach for response. Trusts have worked on the assumption that the future. The hon. Member for Witham mentioned they could get around that impediment by setting up reform, which we all agree is needed, and I believe we arm’s-length commercial vehicles to take on the financial need to build on the incredible, strong local success risks involved, but now I understand that the National story in Northamptonshire. Offender Management Service has told trusts that that My time is running out, but I point the Minister to is ultra vires. Will the Minister clarify whether that is proposals that I made in a publication called “Primary correct? Under right-to-provide legislation, individual Justice”, on which I worked with several Members of 117WH Probation Service13 MARCH 2013 Probation Service 118WH

[Andy Sawford] The proposed model fails to recognise that circumstances can change abruptly. Thus, someone who is deemed to Parliament, including the right hon. Member for Arundel be of low or medium risk could subsequently become and South Downs (Nick Herbert), as well as Lord high risk, and the staff in the contracted organisation Ramsbotham and other eminent professionals in the might not be equipped to recognise that. Even if they area. That report, which I believe was excellent, proposed did, they would then presumably need to arrange a a model that would build on a public sector success hurried transfer back into the public sector. That would story. It would be far better to adopt that model than to clearly be nonsense, and a bureaucratic nightmare. proceed with the current proposals, and I commend it to the Minister. I look forward to his answers to my Kate Green: Does my hon. Friend agree that as well specific questions. as being nonsense and a bureaucratic nightmare it would be a financial disincentive for a private provider? 3.19 pm Paul Blomfield: My hon. Friend makes a good point. Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): It is a pleasure It is a significant financial disincentive, which underlines to be able to take part in the debate under your what nonsense the proposal is at every level. chairmanship, Mr Crausby. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds East (Mr Mudie) on The South Yorkshire probation trust also considers securing this important debate and on his comprehensive that the proposals show a failure to understand the critique of the Government’s proposals. I am sorry that complexities of accountability in the criminal justice several pages of his speech were lost, owing to interventions, system. If a judge or magistrate has concerns about the but that shows the strength of concern about the proposals. supervision of a contracted-out court order, with one or more organisations involved, whom should they ask to My speech will be relatively brief, and I want to focus appear before them? Information sharing, particularly on some of the concerns of the South Yorkshire. Without with the police, will become complicated and relevant wanting to compete with those of my hon. Friends who information in relation to risk issues will be lost. Only a commented on the trusts in their areas, I will mention qualified probation officer should be the offender manager the fact that it recently received a five-star accreditation of medium-risk cases: that is how the trust operates, in the British Quality Foundation’s Recognised for and it believes it is a reason for its high performance. I Excellence programme, on the strength of its organisational would underline the importance of learning from high performance. I hope therefore that regard will be paid performance to reduce reoffending. The model that the to its views. We can all agree that we need to increase trust believes fully supports the Government’s plans to rehabilitation levels, to support a reduction in reoffending, bring other sectors together is based on the approach of but the South Yorkshire probation trust’s concerns deserve the offender manager and offender supervisor relationship; proper consideration. it builds on current successful practice in working with The trust points out that although the Justice Secretary many agencies from the public, private and third sectors, is looking for improvements in the reoffending rate, such often in the same premises, to manage difficult and improvements are already being achieved by the probation dangerous offenders in the community. service. According to the Ministry’s figures, performance Like many of my hon. Friends, I am concerned about in relation to offenders under statutory supervision has the proposal to reduce the number of trusts. South improved year on year over the past decade. The data Yorkshire had also raised that matter. My hon. Friend show that adult proven reoffending was 3.1 percentage the Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), who is no points lower in 2010 than in 2000; 66% of offenders longer in his place, talked about the importance of local subject to statutory supervision by the probation service anchorage. The proposals for a reduced number of do not go on to reoffend. Those include a range of trusts would make it more difficult for the probation offenders with a mixture of complex and demanding service to retain local links and a local profile, and what needs who are assessed as being at low, medium or high my hon. Friend called anchorage. Those changes to risk of both harm and reoffending. Conversely, according structures, coming at the same time as changes to who to National Audit Office figures, 60% of offenders who provides services, and how they provide them, will be are not subject to statutory supervision by the probation such an upheaval that it will put the success of the service—those who receive a prison sentence of less Government’s scheme at significant additional risk. I than 12 months—go on to reoffend. ask the Minister to listen not only to all my hon. A key concern of the South Yorkshire probation Friends but to the professionals in the field; to take trust about the new proposals is the proposal to split account of the responses to the consultation; and not to responsibility for offenders between public and private rush through changes that would increase the risks to providers, depending on the level of risk. Its concern is public safety. that that could introduce a dangerous, artificial divide, which would fail to take account of how risk levels 3.25 pm fluctuate. It sees the management of medium-risk cases in particular as a “fundamental threat” and points out Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): It is that there seems to be a belief that medium-risk cases a great pleasure to speak in this important debate, are assessed as such on the basis of the seriousness of Mr Crausby. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member the current offence. However, that is not always the for Leeds East (Mr Mudie) and thank him for the case. Medium-risk offenders have already caused, or are opportunity to speak on a subject about which I care assessed as having the potential to cause, “serious harm”. deeply. I have cared about it for many years, having They can include those on life sentences, individuals served as a magistrate from 1993 to 2009, when I got to who have a history of domestic abuse, members of know probation officers closely. I am concerned that the gangs, and individuals who pose a risk to children. Government’s proposals are based on no evidence that 119WH Probation Service13 MARCH 2013 Probation Service 120WH a payment-by-results model will work in the context. By envisages those inter-agency relationships being sustained contrast, Greater Manchester probation trust, which and protected when new private providers appear on supervises offenders in my constituency, has a good the scene. track record. Other hon. Members have also spoken about the successes of their probation trusts this afternoon. Thirdly, we would all rightly acknowledge the importance The Justice Secretary himself has, indeed, recognised of employment in preventing reoffending; it is well Greater Manchester’s innovativeness, and has said he understood to be crucial in keeping offenders out of wants to consider the lessons learned there. I hope that trouble in future. I very much welcomed the Government’s that is sincere. decision to introduce “day one” entry to the Work programme for those leaving custody, but we have to As others have pointed out, we need first to be clear acknowledge that the Work programme has not, so far about who is currently supervised by probation, and at least, been a roaring success. about the fact that we cannot assess the service’s performance in relation to offenders whose supervision By contrast, the Achieve programme, developed by was never in its remit. The probation service does not the Greater Manchester probation trust, has proven supervise those who leave custody after receiving sentences very successful both with those on community sentences, of less than 12 months. That group of offenders has who make up 70% of the Achieve caseload, and with been missed by public policy to date. The Government those leaving custody, who make up the other 30%. are right about that, and I welcome their intention to Achieve is a programme that works with partners such introduce new supervision for that group. However, the as Procure Plus, which is a social enterprise based in my Minister will be interested to know that Greater Manchester constituency, to offer real work and real wages to offenders. probation trust has already experimented with a programme It has been very successful in getting offenders into to look after that group of offenders. The Choose sustained employment. Some 13.5% of those going Change programme, a through-the-gate initiative for through the Achieve programme have remained in those serving shorter custodial sentences, offered support employment. As I think the Minister would agree, that and supervision before and after release. is a much better result than we have seen from the Work programme, and we want to build on that. As my hon. The evaluation of Choose Change shows the scale of Friend the Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) said, we the challenge in dealing with prisoners who have had are now deeply uncertain about the future for programmes short custodial sentences, on release. They were people such as Achieve. with long histories of offending behaviour, and often chaotic lives. It is clear to me that one reason why The Secretary of State for Justice has talked of probation Choose Change was less successful than we all hoped staff forming co-operatives or social enterprises, and, as was that it was necessary to intervene much earlier in my hon. Friend said, probation trusts—including Greater those offenders’ lives. For those with 10 or 15-year Manchester probation trust—have been anticipating, histories of offending behaviour it was far too late to over the past 12 months or so, the need and opportunity start looking at through-the-gate solutions. However, to create separate non-public sector provider organisations, we should also recognise that Choose Change offered but with the probation element integral to their success. support to an extent that was both intensive and costly. It seems now as though probation services, such as It is not clear to me that such intensive through-the-gate GMPT, that have created those models will not be able supervision can be made attractive to the private sector. to use them to bid for contracts, and we really need to In the absence of any wide-scale national provision understand from the Minister whether that is right, and against which to measure it—that group of offenders if so, why on earth is it right? There is a situation of has not been supervised on a national scale to date—I total confusion out there now. We do not know whether am curious about how the Minister intends to specify it is considered anti-competitive for those bodies to bid, the provision, and about the sort of pricing model that or whether them bidding is considered ultra vires, as my he envisages, to make it viable for commercial providers. hon. Friend mentioned. We do not understand why the Justice Secretary seemed to be so positive about it but Secondly, Greater Manchester probation trust has now seems to be rowing back. I would be really grateful led the way in important initiatives such as intensive if the Minister—I am glad that he is shaking his head— alternatives to custody and integrated offender management. could put it on the record clearly this afternoon that Crucial to those programmes and, indeed, to Choose they will have the opportunity to bid. Change, as other hon. Members have said, has been effective inter-agency working, founded on long-standing Fourthly, the Minister will not be in the least bit close relationships. I visited the Spotlight team at Stretford surprised that I want to raise concerns about programmes police station, shortly after I became a Member of for women in the contracted-out model, because as he is Parliament, where police, probation, the local authorities, well aware, they have special needs and circumstances in social services and so on are co-located. Workers are the context of the criminal justice system. I welcome the very effective and are a well targeted, integrated team appointment of his colleague, the Under-Secretary of that spotlights—as the name says—follows, tracks and State for Justice, the hon. Member for Maidstone and intervenes constantly on offenders who are either living The Weald (Mrs Grant), as champion for women in the during or post-sentence in the community. It is absolutely criminal justice system. I very much regret that this vital that the success of that programme, which is afternoon, we see the Government rejecting the amendment founded on those inter-agency relationships, is protected. that was passed in the House of Lords to the Crime and I know already that Greater Manchester police are Courts Bill, proposing that there is a champion for expressing concern that those relationships could be women at the heart of the criminal justice system. I am disturbed by the roll-out of the Government’s proposals. very pleased that the Select Committee on Justice is I would be grateful if the Minister could say how he conducting an inquiry into women in the criminal justice 121WH Probation Service13 MARCH 2013 Probation Service 122WH

[Kate Green] attend this important debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds East (Mr Mudie) on system, and I encourage the Committee to look at how securing it and on providing us with such a comprehensive payment by results would work for women offenders, opening speech, which flagged up very effectively many because that is not at all straightforward. of the major issues that I and other Members have In Greater Manchester, we have developed the Women touched on. MATTA programme, which is a partnership between Most Members who have contributed this afternoon the Pankhurst centre and Women in Prison. It offers recognise the hard work and high degree of professionalism holistic support for women offenders or those at risk of in the probation service. It is worth pointing out that in offending, and it has been able, by wrapping holistic October 2011 the probation service was awarded the support around those women, to deliver substantial British Quality Foundation’s gold medal for excellence, savings to the public purse. Again, it is founded on a which was an eloquent tribute. The then Minister with network of carefully developed relationships between responsibility for probation, the hon. Member for Reigate different non-governmental organisations, but it is very (Mr Blunt), said hard to see that that voluntary approach would fit easily “This prestigious award recognises the professionalism of probation into the payment-by-results model, and I worry that staff and the excellence of their work… This very public recognition that very good, specialist work could be lost. of not just what they do but, perhaps more importantly, how well The problems are that the number of women in the they do it, will be a source of pride for probation staff.” criminal justice system is relatively small, as everyone That was an important statement and an important knows; their needs are high and often very complex; award. they are often mothers, so there are extra dimensions to My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central the support that is needed, because children are involved; (Paul Blomfield) underlined the fact, as did others, that and they have often also been victims of crime and real improvements have been made on reoffending rates. abuse over a very long period of time. We can already We all recognise that there should be no complacency, see services to support women offenders and women’s and we need to ensure that those reoffending rates are centres being squeezed. Ring-fenced funding that had significantly reduced. We believe that the way to do that been provided by the Ministry of Justice is now being is to build on the work that is being done, not to spread more thinly across more women’s programmes. undermine it with a set of proposals that are untried, The conclusion I draw is that it could be very costly untested and a leap in the dark. for private providers to develop the kind of dedicated I would suggest that payment by results is ideologically programmes that are necessary to meet the special driven. If we are going to improve the probation service needs of women. There is a real concern, therefore, that and tackle reoffending rates, it is absolutely vital that they will not do so and instead, we will see women improvements are based on empirical evidence objectively shoehorned into the standard offer. I am sorry to draw collected and that we have a well tested plan for yet again on the analogy of the Work programme, but improvement on which to work. that is exactly what is happening there, where we can see particularly poor outcomes for lone parents, because It worries me that two pilots were established, as my again, their special needs as women and mothers are hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Andy Sawford), for simply not being regarded in that programme. example, pointed out—there was one in Wales and one in Staffordshire and the west midlands—yet both were I am really grateful for the opportunity to raise those scrapped by the new Justice Secretary within weeks, I concerns at this early stage, as Ministers are considering think, of his taking office. I would like to know why that how they intend to roll out the model. My concerns are happened. Why did the Government not believe it necessary very real, in terms of holding on to the good practice to collect objective information and then plan properly that we have. Nobody in Greater Manchester probation their response in relation to the work that still needs to trust is against competition, or against the appropriate be done on reoffending issues? He seems to have based involvement of the private and third sectors, but I know his thinking on his experience as a Minister of State in that the Minister will not want to choke off successful the Department for Work and Pensions and what has initiatives and programmes that already exist. I am very been experienced so far in the Work programme. That is concerned that top-down, large-scale, nationally let contracts seen as the model, but it is worth pointing out that only will prove especially problematic, in relation to the very 3.5% of people on the Work programme are in work effective local programmes that have been developed. after six months. When that goes wrong, it is bad for the The voluntary sector will be squeezed out, as has happened people who are unemployed, but it is extremely worrying again in the Work programme, and the outcomes will be when potentially dangerous offenders may go without poorer as a result. proper support and monitoring because this scheme is I urge Ministers to proceed with their plans with based on that scheme, which is certainly not succeeding. great caution. We are proud of our track record in That is bad for the individuals involved and for society Greater Manchester, and Ministers must provide us as a whole. The bottom line for many people is that with the assurance and the evidence that the private there is not a great deal of public confidence in G4S. In sector payment-by-results model will do better. It is not many ways, that is stating the obvious. good enough to say that it will do okay, because we are Other questions have been raised by hon. Members. not at all clear at this stage that that evidence exists. My hon. Friend the Member for Corby, for example, posed a number of important questions, and I will be 3.37 pm one of the Members who leave this room today and go Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): It is a pleasure to to the Library to get a copy of his report, “Primary serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. It is also Justice”. I am sure that it is well worth reading. My pleasing that many Opposition Members are here to hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston 123WH Probation Service13 MARCH 2013 Probation Service 124WH

(Kate Green) also posed a number of important questions. has been said by people who are actually involved with I would be more than pleased to hear the Minister’s the probation service from day to day. I hope that the response to those questions. Government will listen to those comments, display some I would like to ask five questions in particular. They common sense and think again about this programme. are in part an elaboration on what has already been stated. First, it is a very real problem if there is a 3.46 pm division of responsibility between the private and public sectors. We must acknowledge that the risks can change, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice as my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Jeremy Wright): It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, said. Prisoners are not the same individuals always; the Mr Crausby. I congratulate the hon. Member for Leeds risks can change. That is a genuine concern, but the East (Mr Mudie) on securing the debate. I thank him Government’s proposals will lead to a lack of co-ordination and all the other hon. Members who have spoken in the between the private and public sectors. There is an course of what has been a good debate. I shall try to inherent incoherence, therefore, in the Government’s deal with as many of the points as I can in the time that proposals. Ihave. My second concern is about resources. To be fair, I The first thing that I want to say is that it is no part of think that it is good that resources will be allocated for my case today, or the Government’s case for reform, to those on sentences of under 12 months. It is good that make the argument that there is not good work going they are being catered for—let us be clear about that—but on in probation trusts already. Clearly, there is. I have where is the extra money coming from? We are talking seen it, and other hon. Members who have spoken have about cuts in the public sector generally and in this area seen it for themselves, too. However, I am also sure that in particular, so where are the extra resources for this the probation officers whom they have seen and I have important work to come from? seen would agree—as many of those who have spoken in the debate agree—that we can do better than we are Thirdly, what we have in the Government’s consultation doing at the moment. document is a highly centralised approach. It is very The hon. Member for Leeds East was right to accept much being driven and will be driven from Whitehall, that reoffending rates are too high and that we need to and it does not recognise the important co-operation bring them down. That has been a common theme in and networking that exists at grass-roots level, at local the debate. The truth is that despite significant extra level, among the private sector, the public sector and, investment, of the order of 70% over the past 10 years, indeed, the voluntary sector. Moreover, this is happening reoffending rates have not come down by as much as at a time when probation trusts in England and Wales they should have. I think that it was the hon. Member are being reduced in number. There is bound to be—it is for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) who said that the inevitable—tremendous turmoil. To introduce these changes rate of reduction in reoffending—we are talking now at the same time as that fundamental change in the not about short sentences, but about the overall rate of structure of trusts is very worrying indeed. reduction—was 3.1%. That is 3.1% for a 70% additional Fourthly, a very big question to be answered is how investment. We can do better than that. I think that success will be measured. It has been suggested by people in the probation service accept that, too. It is some—I think by some of the Government’s own Back therefore sensible to consider how we can do things Benchers—that full payment will be given to private differently. companies only if individuals commit no more crimes Bringing prisoners serving sentences of 12 months or within a given period. Is that the case? Will the Minister less into the ambit of rehabilitative services is another confirm that or state the position otherwise? That would thing that also has widespread agreement in the debate, be welcome because mixed messages are coming from and I do not think that it met with disagreement in the the Government on that point, which is central to their consultation or beyond. We will include such offenders proposals. We want coherent answers, at least, to be in the cohorts dealt with by those taking on the work provided, so that everyone knows where they stand. The across a set geographical area. The crucial question, Government must do something to address the very which was raised a number of times is, how do we pay real risk that the private sector will cherry-pick; it will for those extra offenders? It is a fair question, so I shall seek to work with the offenders who are easiest to start there. rehabilitate, not the rest. The truth is that payment by results and competition My final question is about the sharing of information, for the rehabilitation of medium and low-risk offenders which is central to tackling reoffending. At the moment, will release the savings that enable us to pay for those the police and the probation service share information. additional offenders. The difficulty we have, which is Generally, they do that very well indeed. What will again widely recognised, is that we are not in a position happen when the private sector has a large stake in the to expect large amounts of extra investment to pay for system? Will the police and G4S, for example, share the additional offenders, so we need to find another way information on the same basis? If the answer is yes, of doing so. If the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne certain implications stem from that and they need to be David) has a way in which he intends to pay for them, addressed by the Government. beyond releasing savings from the existing budget, it In essence, the consultation document that the would be interesting to hear what it is, but we do not Government have produced is not sound. It is essentially believe that such funds are available. based on dogma. It is motivated by abstraction rather than hard facts. I very much hope that, even at this late Andy Sawford: The Government have made disappointing stage, the Government will listen not only to what has progress with community budgets, which are precisely been said in the debate but, more importantly, to what the kind of approach, building on Total Place, that 125WH Probation Service13 MARCH 2013 Probation Service 126WH

[Andy Sawford] 3.52 pm Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. would enable us to look at the kind of interventions that would release funding though better social outcomes to make the investments we all want to see. 4.7 pm On resuming— Jeremy Wright: I very much hope that the kinds of projects the hon. Gentleman describes are successful, Jeremy Wright: I was talking about what else is but we do not believe that the funding necessary to do needed to make a PBR-based system work. For a start, what we are discussing will be released quickly enough the areas over which contracts operate need to be large in this case. The best way to do it is to engage in exactly enough to enable the PBR figures to be meaningful. the course of action we have set out. Payment by results That really is why we cannot continue with the same is not, as some believe, ideological at all. It is very number of probation trusts that we currently have. practical. It is about paying for what works and investing Probation trusts, by their nature, are not capable of taxpayers’ money in it. After all, taxpayers expect us to taking on the financial risk that PBR requires. That is invest their money wisely in effective outcomes. In this why existing trusts, as they are currently constituted, case, the outcome is simple: the reduction of reoffending. cannot participate. That is what we are after. It means fewer victims, less misery for communities and lower costs to the taxpayer. That brings me on to the questions asked by the hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) about what options An argument has been made about pilots. Why not are available to those who are currently working in the pilot? Why not spend more time exploring and public sector probation service. We are keen to see the experimenting? It is a myth that we do not already have opportunity made available to them to be part of either learning on payment by results—we do. We have learning mutuals or other types of vehicle that will enable them from pilots undertaken and stopped early. It is not the to compete for the rehabilitative work. Many people case that one can learn nothing from a pilot unless it currently working in probation trusts will want to consider runs its full course. It is equally not the case that one the alternative option, which is to work in the public can learn nothing from a pilot unless it succeeds; sometimes sector probation service and look after high-risk offenders. you can learn as much from what does not work as you There are a number of complexities around that, and I can learn from what does. hope, in view of the time, that the hon. Gentleman will I shall change the subject entirely.The Work programme forgive me if I write to him on the detail. I hope to has also been mentioned. Of course, I do not accept reassure him that opportunities will be available. that the Work programme is a failure in the way it has Concerns have also been raised about central been characterised, but it is true the programme is a commissioning. Payment by results requires particular source of learning for this project. We do not intend to commissioning expertise, and it is difficult to see how lift the Work programme from the Department for that can be done successfully on the existing local Work and Pensions and deposit it into the Ministry of commissioning model. However, I have made it clear Justice, because it is different. There are differences throughout the process that if there are ways in which because we expect those who take on the work to carry PBR-based commissioning can be effectively done at a out the orders of the court and meet licence requirements, local level, or at least a less national level, we are open which is why such contracts, under any payment-by-results to hearing about them. We will see what comes out of arrangement, will not be 100% payment by results. the consultation. There is the crucial point about local partnerships. I Kate Green: I suggest, in passing, that it might be accept entirely what has been said by many, that it is sensible to wait for the Work programme to demonstrate vital to have fully effective local partnerships that bring its successes before using it as a helpful model to run together a variety of agencies to work on the re-offending ahead with this programme. Some Work programme challenge. We will want to ensure that all bidders for the providers will undoubtedly bid for contracts for probation contracts can demonstrate that they will be able to provision and supervision provision. Given that we sustain those local partnerships. have identified employment as a key way out of offending There are a number of significant design challenges, behaviour, are those providers likely to be paid twice, and I would not wish to minimise them. We are already once as an offender’s Work programme provider and a looking at a number of those challenges through the second time for providing their criminal justice supervision? consultation and the responses to it. The consultation closed on 22 February, and we are still going through a Jeremy Wright: In our system, we will look for justice number of detailed responses. I cannot therefore give outcomes under the payment-by-results contracts. We specific answers about how we will address all those will be interested in whether people have reoffended. I challenges, but we will address and find ways round shall come back to some of the difficulties with metrics, them. which were mentioned, in a moment. The Work programme Let me highlight one or two of the challenges is different in that providers are rewarded for getting that have been mentioned. The first is the direct people back into work. On the hon. Lady’s first point, I management of offenders. The proposals currently say must say that if we should wait two years to find out that we wish to separate direct management of those whether the Work programme is a success, she should who pose the greatest risk of serious harm and reserve wait two years before she deems it a failure. Until we them for the public sector probation service, while the wait for those two years, she cannot say what Opposition management of medium and lower risk offenders would Members have been saying loudly for some weeks. be competed for. 127WH Probation Service13 MARCH 2013 Probation Service 128WH

The point has been made about the dynamic nature you will maintain those good relationships over the of risk, which I entirely understand, because people course of the bids?” We will also want to have contract might not stay in the categories in which they are management mechanisms in place to ensure that that initially placed. It is therefore important that public happens. sector probation officers—they will retain responsibility Of course, we must design a system that avoids the for the management of risk of serious harm for all perverse incentives around cherry-picking and choosing offenders, not just the highest risk ones—have the to look after only those offenders who are easiest to opportunity to do that job, which involves the transfer turn round. We are very conscious of that challenge, of information and good relationships between those much of which, as the hon. Member for Caerphilly engaged in what I might describe as the life management said, relates to exactly how we measure and pay for part of the job and the public sector probation officer success. We are exploring several options for that at the who has oversight of risk of serious harm. moment, and carefully considering what people have The hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate told us during the consultation, so that we can introduce Green) was right to highlight that as a significant challenge, a solution that will avoid those perverse incentives. but it is important to recognise that, in the world we are The hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston was in now, probation officers often have to deal with people quite right to mention the specific needs of female in the voluntary sector who provide particular interventions. offenders. I am glad that she welcomes the appointment They must have a good relationship with those people of the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. and make sure that the flow of information is effective. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald When I talk to probation trusts, I always ask whether (Mrs Grant), which is a significant move because it will that flow of information is good and gives them what bring together management and responsibility for female they need, and the answer is invariably, “Yes, it does.” offenders in the criminal justice system more broadly. The concept is not therefore entirely alien, but we will As the hon. Lady will recognise, we will ask a specific ensure, in the design of the system, that the flow of question about that in the consultation and consider information is good. I stress that the decision whether a carefully what people say. We will also include those defender remains as a medium-risk offender or is transferred specific offenders in our plans. to a higher risk category will be taken by a public sector I will finish where I started—with the basic premise probation officer based, as I have said, on the information about making sure that we do better on reoffending flows that they receive. than we currently do. We can do that only if we include Another concern is about opportunities for smaller in our proposals the 46,000 offenders a year who now voluntary and community sector organisations in the receive very little statutory intervention and support. It new landscape. Again, we entirely understand and share is vital to extend that intervention and support to them that concern. We want such organisations to play an and that we find the money to pay for that. That brings important part in rehabilitation. Clearly, much of the us to payment by results, which is a sensible concept. It expertise and many of the skills that have the greatest is a common-sense principle to pay for outcomes that effect are located in those organisations. work in driving down reoffending, which are highly We will want to look not only at the bids when they valuable because they mean fewer victims of crime, less come in—assessing them for quality and price—but at misery for communities and lower cost to the taxpayer. the sustainability of the relationships that they put On that basis, we believe the proposals are well worth forward. It is highly likely that organisations, including pursuing, but we will carefully consider the many design smaller voluntary sector ones, will come to us with a challenges, what we are told during the consultation bid, and we will ask, “How do you demonstrate that and the points made during this debate. 129WH 13 MARCH 2013 Operation Jasmine (Care Home 130WH Abuse) Operation Jasmine (Care Home Abuse) 60 of whom have died since 2005. That cannot be the lasting legacy of the inquiry, or the legacy for those who Mr David Crausby (in the Chair): We now come to the died and their families. debate in the name of Nick Smith on the conduct and In a former job, I was a National Society for the outcome of Operation Jasmine into care home abuse. Prevention of Cruelty to Children campaigner, and Although elements of this subject would engage the I saw terrible images of child abuse. The pictures that I House’s sub judice resolution, the Speaker has agreed have seen from Operation Jasmine are no less terrible. that, because criminal proceedings now appear unlikely I was shown graphic photos of pressure sores that to go ahead in the foreseeable future, the resolution proved fatal, and of sores that were so infected that the should be waived to allow the hon. Gentleman to air his bone beneath was visible. They were sickening, and in concerns. I am confident that he will exercise due caution the words of one expert, the worst that they had ever in what he says. seen. A senior employee in one home has told me that the 4.15 pm director sought tight control of the business. If full-time staff were off, no agency staff were brought in. Budgets Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): I am grateful for were squeezed across the board, and even food and the opportunity to raise this issue. I speak on behalf of incontinence pads did not escape budget cuts. Six Puretruce the alleged victims of care home abuse in south Wales care homes were investigated for alleged neglect. In my and their families. This debate is timely and of great view, there was a systemic failure across many of the concern. This matter deserves scrutiny for my constituents, homes, with residents’ care being compromised. It led the south Wales region and, indeed, UK colleagues. to what police have called “death by indifference”. We cannot underplay the significance of Operation In July 2007, the director was arrested on charges Jasmine. Spanning seven years, it is the biggest investigation covering both neglect of residents and financial irregularities, into care home abuse ever undertaken in the UK: but the charges of neglect faltered as the bar for conviction 75 police officers and staff worked on the case; more was said to be very high. than 4,000 statements were taken; 10,500 exhibits were collected; 12.5 metric tonnes of documents currently lie Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): I congratulate in a Pontypool warehouse; and it cost £11.6 million, my hon. Friend on securing this debate for the families, including £500,000 for 11 experts to advise the police. the police and the Health and Safety Executive who have worked so tirelessly on this case for many years. Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): I commend my The central issue here is that proving deliberate acts of hon. Friend and parliamentary neighbour on his efforts harm is relatively straightforward, but proving deliberate in this campaign, and the work of Gwent police in neglect is hard, so does he agree that that is something putting together the investigation. Is he not concerned, the Minister should consider urgently? as I am, that the case has taken seven years and cost £11.6 million, as he mentions? At a briefing, he and I saw harrowing photographic evidence of some of the Nick Smith: I agree with my hon. Friend, and it is one alleged abuse. Is he not worried that that situation has of the direct questions that I intend to ask the Minister. caused more pain and anguish to the relatives, family In 2011, the Health and Safety Executive became and friends of those who suffered the abuse? involved, too, in the hope that its additional evidence would be the final push over that bar. Sadly, that did not Nick Smith: I thank my hon. Friend for his point. happen. Instead, the charges against the director, who That situation has caused much pain and anguish to had a GP practice and 26 care homes across south relatives of the victims of the alleged abuse, which is Wales—a profitable empire—will lie on file. why it is important to have this debate and seek more A small number of convictions have been secured in information about what occurred. relation to the neglect of elderly people, but no one served a custodial sentence. We have to ask ourselves Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Is my hon. Friend whether that sorry conclusion could have been avoided. concerned that in Operation Jasmine, chlorpromazine MPs have been told that a change in the QC part way was found in the hair of three of the victims? It is an through the case brought a different perspective as to antipsychotic neuroleptic drug that is meant to be used the likely success of the case. We know that the Crown on the deeply psychotic. The misuse and over-use of Prosecution Service decides the charges and the standard drugs to turn patients into zombies and make the home of evidence it requires, but given the enormous quantity cheaper to run is a significant feature of this disgraceful of evidence collected, it does beg questions about the affair. evidence threshold, how Operation Jasmine progressed and the management of the operation. It is clear, as Nick Smith: My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. others have said, that local police worked very hard on All the evidence collected by the police in this long-running this case, but the results do not match that fine effort. case must be brought to the public’s attention, so that it Was there a well founded and unified understanding is open and available for them and they can form their between the CPS and the police about what evidence own views about what happened. was needed? On 1 March, at Cardiff Crown court, the key prosecution Given that the case took seven years, did anything collapsed, when the director of care home owners Puretruce slow down the operation and how could such roadblocks was deemed unfit to stand trial. Relatives have been left be avoided in the future? What advice does the CPS give angry and despondent. In the meantime, the human to the police and others investigating abuses in care, and cost has been devastating: there are 103 alleged victims, does it have a plan for lowering the bar for prosecutions 131WH Operation Jasmine (Care Home 13 MARCH 2013 Operation Jasmine (Care Home 132WH Abuse) Abuse) in the future? Were high-level project management tools Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): On the issue of an brought to bear on this investigation from the start, and inquiry, does my hon. Friend agree that one of the is the legal definition of “neglect” fit for purpose in major problems now is that, because one of the accused cases such as this? is unwell and is deemed unable—at the moment—to go on trial, information cannot be provided for any kind of Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): I congratulate inquiry because there may be a trial in the future? What my hon. Friend and colleagues in Wales on pursuing is absolutely essential is that we get definitive medical this case on behalf of the victims and in the interests of advice on whether or not that accused person is able to higher standards in home care. Am I correct in my stand trial in the near future—yes or no. understanding that while the principal prosecution collapsed because the principal defendant was unfit to respond to Nick Smith: My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. the charges, the co-defendant is not in such a position We have to take this further, if we can. and yet action is not being proceeded against him? Does my hon. Friend have anything to say about that, and Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend would he like to put that point to the Minister and ask agree that, even if an inquiry cannot be held at this why that person cannot be prosecuted? stage because of continuing investigations, the Welsh Government, who I suspect could be responsible for an Nick Smith: My right hon. Friend makes a fair point. inquiry, could in principle agree to one as soon as the That is indeed the case, and it would be good to hear judicial proceedings are over? from the Minister why that prosecution was not taken forward. Nick Smith: My right hon. Friend and neighbour is an experienced parliamentarian. He may have found a I have written to the Director of Public Prosecutions route through this, so that we can get to the bottom of to ask for some answers. He has now promised a substantive this issue. His point should be explored. reply, but further action might be needed. We have a duty to those elderly people who have passed away, the Staff in such cases must also be supported if they families who are still fighting on their behalf and those draw attention to care that does not meet agreed guidelines. with no family and with no voice. We must ensure that A woman told me that her mother suffered pressure their story is put on the record. sores while in the care of a Puretruce home. Even though the family had visited mam every day, they were The inquiry into poor care at Stafford hospital showed never told about these sores. They only found out when how important it is to record individual cases and to the police investigation came to their door. She said: make the information public. I want the QC’s final opinion on the allegations in this case to be made “Only the families now know what went on. People need to be told.” public, and the Director of Public Prosecutions or the head of the CPS in Gwent to meet MPs and members We must not ignore the lessons of this sorry tale. We all of the victims’ action group. I want them to be joined by have a responsibility to see that residents are well fed representatives from the police, the Health and Safety and that rooms are clean. If not, we should be asking Executive and the Care and Social Services Inspectorate why and those concerns should be acted on. Wales, and I want key evidence collected for this trial to Many people can expect to live for nearly 80 years. As be made public. we live with conditions such as dementia for longer, There have been calls for a public inquiry. I need to many of us will see a partner or loved one, or ourselves, know what criteria the Minister will bring to bear when in a care home at some time. Across the country, considering such calls. hundreds of thousands of people are well cared for: their care homes will be spick and span, and their health will be a priority. But we must ensure that a gold 4.24 pm standard of care is there for everybody. Lessons must be Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. learned. But with all the evidence Operation Jasmine has collected, there is no doubt much more for us to learn. We must keep the spotlight on residential care, to 4.38 pm stop further abuse behind closed doors. On resuming— 4.42 pm Nick Smith: Thank you, Mr Crausby, for allowing me to continue my speech. The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper): It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, There have been calls for a public inquiry. I need to Mr Crausby. I congratulate the hon. Member for Blaenau know what criteria the Minister will bring to bear when Gwent (Nick Smith) on securing this debate on an considering such calls, given that this case is the biggest important issue, and I agree with his concluding remarks. inquiry into care home abuse in the UK. There are 106 I am grateful to Mr Speaker for waiving the sub judice alleged victims, the evidence suggests that there was rules so that I can set out some details that the hon. systemic failure and there has been no closure for the Gentleman is familiar with, but which it would be victims. These calls for a public inquiry become compelling. helpful to get in the public record. The deputy chief constable of Gwent police has said: The hon. Gentleman has a particular interest in this “There is a likelihood that there are cases like this occurring issue because one of the care homes covered by the every day of the week across the country”. investigation was in his constituency. He and other hon. Staff and relatives must not be afraid to challenge care Members will know about family members of those that they are worried about. who were neglected, or those who sadly died, who will 133WH Operation Jasmine (Care Home 13 MARCH 2013 Operation Jasmine (Care Home 134WH Abuse) Abuse) [Mr Mark Harper] West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart). Both homes were owned by Dr Prana Das. Following the investigation be affected and will be concerned about what happened. into this incident at Bryngwyn, further investigation by I am sure that his interest, and the interest of other Gwent police identified a series of deaths at the home Opposition Members, will keep this issue at the forefront, that required further thorough investigation, with the to ensure that we learn lessons from it. police identifying a further 11 cases where elements of neglectful care may have been linked to the deaths of Simon Hart (Carmarthen Westand South Pembrokeshire) those residents. (Con): Marilyn Jenkins’s mother was in the Brithdir Initial work at Brithdir nursing home identified 23 further home and died. She is unaware whether her mother was cases of concern where allegations of neglect had been properly treated or not. Will she ever be able to get investigated. The operation eventually investigated answers to that question? allegations of abuse at two further care homes. Gwent police took this very seriously—I think that that was Mr Harper: I should have said that hon. Friends, as the general sense of the contributions from Opposition well as Opposition Members, will know of such cases, Members—and allocated a dedicated police lawyer and too. The hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent asked whether Crown Prosecution Service counsel early on in their the prosecuting authorities would meet family members. investigation. I think that they sensed how significant it That seems sensible. I have had experience of cases in was going to be. the criminal justice system, in which—even if the outcome As the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent said, it was a was not everything that people wanted—understanding thorough police investigation, involving 75 police officers, what happened and having the facts, and understanding more than 4,000 statements, more than 10,000 exhibits the thinking, at least gave people a sense that a proper and 12.5 tonnes of documentation. The Home Office process had been followed. provided special grant support for the police authority In my hon. Friend’s constituent’s case, and I suspect in Gwent, so that the costs of this investigation did not in that of many other families, even if they may not be fall entirely on the police authority and cause detriment happy with the outcome because the prosecutor has not to wider policing in Gwent. That was right and proper. been able to proceed with the case, it is important to There were three convictions against care home staff know what happened to their family member and whether in 2008 for wilful neglect. The investigation then continued they were properly treated. Although that may not give with further charges being sought against the main them satisfaction, at least they may understand what defendant, which the hon. Gentleman mentioned, for happened and can ensure that they and other people manslaughter by gross negligence or wilful neglect. learn the lessons, so that it does not happen again. However, in February 2010 interim advice from CPS The hon. Gentleman is right. There is no place in our was that the cases had not reached the threshold required society for anyone who abuses anyone for whom they for criminal prosecution. The investigations were then are supposed to be caring, whether a child, a vulnerable completed. Further CPS advice to Gwent constabulary adult, or any other member of the community. We in February and June 2011 was that the threshold for should always be vigilant about dealing with that. manslaughter by gross negligence or wilful neglect had Operation Jasmine was a long and difficult case for not been met in any of those cases. all those concerned, with 103 alleged victims, 63 of I understand that the chief constable, not being satisfied whom have subsequently died. That must be incredibly with that advice, met the Director of Public Prosecutions distressing for their families. I thought that it would to challenge the advice that he had received. The DPP probably help, given the hon. Gentleman’s questions, if reiterated the advice that, despite the thorough investigation, I gave the House some facts about the operation and the the case simply had not reached the threshold for reasonable outcome of the police investigation, which commenced prosecutions, given the difficulties of proving wilful in 2005. neglect. Hon. Members will be aware, from what the hon. Paul Flynn: In March 2000, a ten-minute rule Bill was Gentleman said, that the case was then taken forward introduced, seeking better control of neuroleptic drugs as a joint investigation with the Health and Safety in residential homes. Some homes did not use the drugs Executive. The decision was taken by the HSE to prosecute at all, but in other homes 100% of residents were on Dr Das, his company Puretruce Health Care Ltd and its those drugs, which meant that they often lived shorter chief executive, Mr Paul Black, in relation to neglect lives and died in misery and confusion. Has there been and fraud at two care homes, Brithdir and The Beeches any improvement since 2000? in Blaenavon. The trial was set for January this year, but on 9 September 2012 Dr Das was badly assaulted in his Mr Harper: I am not familiar, apart from in general home in an unrelated incident of aggravated burglary terms, with the specific point that the hon. Gentleman and has remained in hospital ever since, suffering from raises. I will draw that to the attention of my hon. permanent brain damage. As the hon. Gentleman said, Friend with responsibility for care standards. I am sure on 1 March Judge Neil Bidder, based on medical evidence that the relevant Minister in the Welsh Government will that he had received, ordered that all charges relating to also hear of the hon. Gentleman’s question. Das, Black and the company lie on file. If Dr Das ever The investigation commenced in 2005, when an elderly recovers from his injuries, which I understand from the resident at Bryngwyn Mountleigh nursing home was medical evidence is unlikely, the trial could continue. admitted to the Royal Gwent hospital, where she then I cannot remember whether the right hon. Member died. Partner agencies brought to Gwent police’s attention for Oxford East (Mr Smith) or the hon. Member significant potential failings at Brithdir nursing home, for Caerphilly (Wayne David), who is sitting next to mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen him, mentioned this, but the judge also ruled that Paul 135WH Operation Jasmine (Care Home 13 MARCH 2013 Operation Jasmine (Care Home 136WH Abuse) Abuse) Black, the co-defendant, should not stand trial because would be possible for a prosecution to proceed if the it was not deemed appropriate to try him alone. I can defendant were ever in a position to be able to stand understand, of course, that the fact the prosecution trial in a way a judge determined to be fair. could not continue leaves families with a real sense that I have six minutes left, so I will try to address some of justice has not been done, but given that the judge the other issues. As a result of the operation, 42 individuals decided the defendant is not in fit condition to stand were referred for consideration under the Care Standards trial, it is not obvious that there is an alternative prosecution Act 2000, which introduced a duty on care providers to scenario. refer care workers who have been dismissed, suspended The judge also decided that, in the absence of the or otherwise left their employment for misconduct that primary defendant, Dr Das, the company could not be harmed a vulnerable adult or placed a vulnerable adult tried either, because it is not possible for the company to at risk of harm to the protection of vulnerable adults have a fair trial given that the main individual controlling scheme. In October 2009, all cases under that scheme the company is not able to respond. The positive thing were referred to the Independent Safeguarding Authority, is that the charges lie on file, so if Dr Das ever recovers which has since been replaced by the new Disclosure from his injuries, family members may be reassured that and Barring Service. That is a mechanism for ensuring the case will continue, although, as I have said, the that any care worker who does not perform at the level medical evidence is that that is very unlikely. they should is unable to work with vulnerable children or vulnerable adults in the future. One of the questions that underlies what the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent said is whether something More widely, the Government are completely committed like this could happen again. Important issues arise on to protecting vulnerable members of the community. whether we have proper arrangements to protect vulnerable Work is under way, as part of a Department of Health-led, adults from those who might seek to abuse and exploit cross-Government effort on safeguarding vulnerable them. adults, to legislate to put safeguarding adults boards on a stronger statutory footing to ensure that they are better equipped to prevent abuse and to respond when Wayne David: I heard what the Minister said about it occurs. the evidence remaining on the table, as it were, but does Given the role of the Welsh Government, as the right he not accept my point that we need some sort of time hon. Member for Torfaen suggested, I have taken the scale? In theory, the evidence that has been accumulated trouble to understand some of the issues they were could remain on the table indefinitely without there dealing with. I know they have maintained close contact ever being an inquiry because it might not allow consent with Gwent police throughout the police operation, and to be given for such an inquiry. I know they have taken account of lessons from the operation in developing their own policies and legislation Mr Harper: I was just about to come on to the in this area. The Welsh Government have introduced question of an inquiry. The right hon. Member for new statutory guidance on managing escalating concerns Torfaen (Paul Murphy) alluded to there being another within care homes. They funded a dignity in care factor in the case, because, obviously, some of these programme to improve practice, and I understand that, issues are for the UK Government and some of the later in the year, they will publish a White Paper on the issues on health and social care are for the Welsh regulation and inspection of social care. The Care and Government. Social Services Inspectorate Wales has also modernised its approach to inspection and regulation to give a If either Government decided that a public inquiry stronger voice to care home residents and their families. would be the right thing, they would need to think Protecting vulnerable adults from abuse is clearly a through whether the charges remaining on file were a core part of the police’s safeguarding and public protection roadblock and whether, therefore, steps needed to be responsibilities. The Association of Chief Police Officers taken. They would also need to consider the balance in recognises the importance of working together with terms of the interests of justice and openness. statutory agencies, local authorities and their safeguarding At the moment it is important that lessons are learned, partners. and I will set out what I think some of those lessons are. ACPO has reviewed the overall learning from If we are to have a public inquiry, we need to think Winterbourne View, another very serious case in which through the objective of that inquiry and what it is that adults with learning disabilities were treated incredibly we would learn that we do not already know. Given the badly. The one direct recommendation relating to the exhaustive nature of the police investigation, and without police was on the early identification of trends and doing some further thinking, I am not clear whether the patterns of abuse, the lessons from which will be answer to that question is that we would learn something disseminated nationally across England and Wales through from having a public inquiry. training and practice. Clearly, if it turned out that the fact the charges are lying on file and are pending is a roadblock, and if Wayne David: Given that Gwent police has already either Government wanted to have some sort of public said it is more than happy to co-operate with the Older inquiry, we would need to come back to that and the People’s Commissioner for Wales on an immediate inquiry, various agencies would need to think about the right does the Minister agree that that would be a positive solution. Without that being on the table, the fact that step forwards? the charges are on file means that people can be reassured that there is no sense that someone could get away with Mr Harper: I will go away and look at that. From it if they were ever in a position to stand trial. The fact everything they have done, the police come out of this is that the evidence is there, the charges are there and it very well. The investigation was very thorough, and 137WH Operation Jasmine (Care Home 13 MARCH 2013 138WH Abuse) [Mr Harper] Secondary Schools: Newark everyone seems to think they did the work that was 4.59 pm required. The College of Policing has a public protection Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con): This is an important learning project that brings together a range of public debate for Newark and the Newark area, and I thank protection disciplines, including adults at risk, and it the Speaker’s Office for selecting this subject. It is a will consider the training materials used by police forces pleasure to be working under your hand yet again, across England and Wales. Mr Crausby. I thank the Minister and his assistants for What the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent said at finding time to be here today. Most importantly, I thank the end of his remarks is absolutely true. Protecting my constituents who have come all the way from Newark vulnerable members of our society is an absolute priority. today to listen to us debate a subject I know is very close This has been a difficult and disturbing case, and it has to their hearts. I have to rattle through my speech, been very lengthy for everyone involved. The charges lie because I want to leave the Minister at least quarter of on file, and the case has happened. an hour to reply to my important points. From what the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend This is a long-standing problem. I have campaigned the Member for Carmarthen West and South on it three times under two different Governments. We Pembrokeshire have said, it sounds as if some work may in Newark do not have secondary schools that are fit for be needed to ensure that all the families involved are our children. It is the most important subject in my properly briefed about what happened to each and constituency. Although siren voices in the town talk every one of their relatives so that they fully understand about other subjects, this is 100% my first priority and the situation. will remain so until the problem is solved. I listened carefully to what the hon. Gentleman said The difficulty is that although the fabric of the schools about the DPP and the CPS meeting the families, and I leaves a great deal to be desired—I will expand on that will raise that with the DPP through the Attorney- in a moment—the schools themselves are absolutely General—I cannot think of any reason why such meetings first class in the product that they turn out. The children could not happen—and report back to the hon. Gentleman. are well-taught; leadership is exemplary; and the boards If there are lessons from the case, they clearly need to of governors are first class. It is desperately important be learned. It is right that all parties, including the UK that we build confidence in schools such as the Newark Government and the Welsh Government, should consider academy, which only recently became an academy, and what they can do. I know the hon. Gentleman and his the Magnus school, rather than simply criticising them, colleagues will continue to pursue the matter to ensure given that the criticism rests on the fabric of the school, that whatever lessons can be learned are learned and not on the product being delivered. that we are never here again with a similar case. I hope If I undermine confidence in those schools and ensure what I have said has helped the hon. Gentleman in what by the words that I speak in this debate that parents do he has been trying to establish today, and I am sure this not send children to them, I will exacerbate the problem will not be the last time he raises the issue either in of the so-called Lincolnshire drift. I am trying not to Westminster Hall or in Parliament more widely. get excited about it, but it is terribly difficult when children from Newark seek to have their secondary schooling in Lincolnshire or at schools such as Toot Hill in Bingham or the Tuxford academy rather than in their home town. The fewer children go to our schools, the less money those schools will attract and the more their fortunes will decline. I must argue about the fabric of the schools, while trying to build confidence in the teaching delivered, in which I have huge confidence. However, there is a problem. For instance, the principal of Newark academy, who is here today, tells me that 180 places are available for the forthcoming academic year, yet only 91 applications have been made so far. The town’s two desperately important secondary schools are under capacity. Mrs Sue Jenkins says: “My concern is the environment of my year 7 daughter, who eats lunch squatted on the floor because the building she learns in fails her. Unless the school is rebuilt sooner, she and her cohort will do this for the rest of their time at secondary school. As parents, we do not expect our children to be mistreated in this way. We chose Newark academy because it is a great school in a great area, but the building is letting the school and the community down… Local council money has been used for years on numerous projects to patchily keep the failing structural fabric of the building going, throwing good money after bad.” The principal, Mrs Karine Jasper, makes the point clearly: “The Newark Academy, formerly the Grove School, has been seeking a new build for years. Everything has been done and is under way to ensure that all parts of the jigsaw are in place to 139WH Secondary Schools: Newark13 MARCH 2013 Secondary Schools: Newark 140WH catapult the school to providing an outstanding education. It is never be accessible to the maintained schools in the now an academy…a new board of governors is in place…the town. I would be grateful if he referred to that in senior leadership team has been restructured, the students are passing. ready to learn…staff are working hard to rapidly improve lessons and outcomes. One vital piece is missing—the building. This is Before I conclude, so that we can listen to the Minister urgently needed for the community. The final piece of the jigsaw in detail, I will quote Mrs Elaine Winter: is a building simply fit for purpose, where children are nurtured, “Note that many of the people who campaign hard are not success is realised and high aspirations are the norm.” going to have children that benefit from any build now as their Those are two desperately heart-touching and important children will be leaving before any bricks are laid, but they carry quotes from different parts of the community. The on tirelessly not because of their own self-interest but because Minister knows that I appreciate that I am not pushing they believe in the community at large. They are fighting to keep it against a closed door—he is completely sensitive to from having its heart (the secondary school) left to rot.” such functions—but he will forgive me if I bring up an I believe in my community, as I know the Minister issue straight from the heart of my community. We believes in his. Such schools are not good enough. The could discuss all the technical stuff. I could talk about coalition is not delivering on the issue on which I engagement, tranches, waves of money and so on. Can campaigned so hard and for the sake of which, as the we cut through all that? Why is the rebuild of the single most important issue, I was returned as a Conservative academy taking so long? I do not know whether the Member of Parliament with a 16,000 majority. The Minister can answer that, but it is not as important as Minister says that he is a Gladstonian liberal. I am what we can do about it. How can we bring forward the delighted and pleased. He will be in absolutely no doubt rebuild? that the spirit of Gladstone lives on in the place where he was elected—namely, Newark. We would be absolutely The Minister is fully aware of what a difficult state delighted, if we cannot insist, for the Minister to visit at the school is in. For instance, under the Building Schools his earliest convenience, so that he can talk to constituents for the Future programme, for which I hold no brief such as the ones who have come down to London today, and I know he holds none, it was proposed that the to head teachers and others and see the problem for Grove, as it was called at the time, would become a himself. sample school. I humbly suggest to him that we might be able to resurrect that plan. I know that the schemes are in place. It might save time and money if we considered 5.10 pm it. I ask him, with respect, to address the matter as The Minister for Schools (Mr David Laws): It is a urgently and carefully as he can in his reply. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. That brings me to the fact that last summer, more I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Newark than £2 million was spent on the academy. As we have (Patrick Mercer) on securing this extremely important heard, it was spent just patching it up. Yes, it is fit for debate. He has been and clearly continues to be a strong purpose; yes, children can learn there adequately; but advocate for high-quality schools in his constituency. by golly, it is sensitive and difficult. For instance, I have He has raised a number of important issues today for recently been told that if more than 2.5 inches of snow his constituents and I will seek to address the three falls, kids cannot be taught in the flat-roofed areas of major areas during the course of my speech. He has the academy in case the roofs collapse. As a result, the also helped to tempt me to Newark in future by mentioning school’s heating is concentrated in those areas to melt the Gladstone link that I should have known about but the snow. They may as well have a snow sentry standing was not aware of, and I would be delighted to visit the outside with a ruler saying, “Ay up! We’re approaching constituency. I will be in trouble with those who organise two and a half—everybody out.” We cannot continue to me if I make any commitments to particular dates, but I lose teaching days at the school. It simply does not would like to visit at some stage. answer in the 21st century. I am grateful for the opportunity to address some of I could spend the whole of my brief time talking these important issues. It is clearly not right for pupils about the academy, but I must mention the Magnus and teachers to work in buildings in such poor condition school, which I also ask the Minister to consider. What that learning is disrupted and staff time is diverted from plans does he have for refurbishing it? I understand that the necessary focus on teaching. Even if those two the Magnus school cannot be rebuilt—I love it, but that things are not happening, having high-quality school is not going to happen—but I cannot pass on without buildings sends out an important signal to young people mentioning it, any more than I can without mentioning and to those who teach in schools about the importance Toot Hill school in Bingham, which is not in Lincolnshire that we place on education. It can also help to raise the but which leaches students away from the academy and aspirations of many young people, in particular those the Magnus school, despite being in barely better condition from more disadvantaged backgrounds, if they are educated than the academy, from which it tends to take a large in appropriate settings. The Government regard this number of students. I would be awfully grateful if he area as extremely important. shed the light of his countenance on that issue. The coalition Government, as my hon. Friend hinted Last is the Exemplar free school. I know that the in his opening comments, had no alternative on coming Minister is across the problem and understands it. I to power but to bring to an end the previous Government’s have terrible difficulty explaining to my constituents wasteful, delayed and ultimately unaffordable Building why, when the maintained schools are in such a state Schools for the Future programme which, remarkably, and under capacity, it appears that a new and completely did not prioritise those schools in the worst condition. separate school is receiving the go-ahead. I appreciate That was not the central criterion to allocate funding that that is not quite right, as the Exemplar school has under the programme. The Priority School Building been delayed by a year. It is also difficult to explain to programme that we have introduced will replace those people that the pot of money for the free school would schools in the worst condition; it will replace the 261 schools 141WH Secondary Schools: Newark13 MARCH 2013 Secondary Schools: Newark 142WH

[Mr David Laws] The Education Funding Agency will commence engagement work with the Newark academy next year. assessed to be the greatest priority on the basis of The EFA will work with the school and other stakeholders condition. In the majority of cases, those were not even to undertake a thorough study to determine the best in the previous Government’s Building Schools for the way to address the condition needs, to manage the Future programme, which shows the stark gap between procurement process and to enter into the delivery the previous plans and the priorities in many areas. In contract. difficult economic times, we have to focus the limited resources that we have where they are most needed—on Patrick Mercer: Has the Minister factored in the the repair and refurbishment of schools in the worst likelihood of Newark being the subject of a growth condition—and to tackle the urgent demand for new point bid? That will give us an extra several thousand good school places as a result of the rising birth rate in houses in Newark, attracting ready-made families and a large parts of the country. large number—explosion is the wrong word—of extra Since May 2010, the Government have allocated children suddenly arriving inside the town over the next £4 billion for the maintenance of the school estate to 10 years. meet the needs of maintained schools and academies, and more than £5 billion to local authorities to support the provision of new school places. On 1 March, my Mr Laws: We have, and I shall come to that point right hon. Friend the Secretary of State announced an specifically in a minute, when I touch on another issue additional £4 billion for the period from 2012-13 to the that my hon. Friend raised in his speech. end of the Parliament. Over the Parliament as a whole, I am sure that my hon. Friend agrees that it is therefore, my hon. Friend can be pleased that the important to consider all options available to address Government that we both support will have allocated the need at the Newark academy and to ensure best some £18 billion for school capital investment, value for the public purse. Our current plan is to engage notwithstanding our difficult times. with the school, as I said, at the back end of next year, We invited bids to the new Priority School Building to ensure that we complete the academy building in programme from schools in need of urgent repair. We 2017. considered every application on a fair and objective I understand my hon. Friend’s concern about spending basis, which involved officials visiting every school to to maintain the condition of the current school buildings validate the accuracy of building condition data. Two at the Newark academy while waiting for the school to hundred and sixty-one schools throughout the country, be rebuilt. Of course, all the 261 schools are in the therefore, will be rebuilt, or in some cases have their programme precisely because they have urgent expected condition needs met substantively through the programme. need—that is how we made the judgment on which As my hon. Friend is probably aware, 15 of those schools we wanted to take and put into priority need. schools are in Nottinghamshire, including the Newark They are schools that otherwise we would have had to academy in his constituency. Nottinghamshire has more spend a huge amount on just refurbishing buildings schools in the programme than any other local authority that would eventually have to be replaced. I must also in England. thank Nottinghamshire county council for continuing The Priority School Building programme is being its support for the academy by allocating funds from its delivered by grouping schools together into batches to capital refurbishment programme to tackle the most ensure healthy competition for the work which will urgent repairs at the site. Furthermore, I believe that we deliver value for money for the public purse. We expect have committed some £170,000 through an environmental to deliver the school works for considerable savings on improvement grant to help fund some aspects of the the previous Building Schools for the Future programme. works. I will ask officials to work with the school and We will continue to investigate every option to accelerate the local authority on identifying sensible solutions to the entire programme, but as far as possible the needs of bridge the gap between now and the date when we are the schools in the worst condition will be dealt with able to complete the school. first. We are making good progress on the delivery of I understand that, as my hon. Friend indicated, there the programme. We have appointed contractors to build are proposals to rebuild the leisure facilities currently the first two groups of capital-funded schools, and located adjacent to the academy on a new site, and construction work is expected to start in May. Contractors funding is being secured to enable that. We are more are currently tendering for the remaining six groups of than happy to work with him, the county council and capital-funded schools. Obviously, the first two groups the school on whether any economies of scale can be consist of the schools that we consider to be the highest achieved in the school building project. In fact, we are priority out of the 261 on the measures we used. already working with other local authorities to deliver We are also working with the schools that we believe facilities on their behalf as part of the Priority School will form the first three privately financed groups. Work Building programme. will start with further groups of schools later this year. I recognise that many other schools in the area have We plan to release the first privately financed batch to significant condition needs, and quite a number of the market in the spring, and further batches will be schools that bid to be in the PSB scheme were sadly not released as soon as possible thereafter. The programme successful. My hon. Friend expressed concern about the is delivering a more efficient, faster and less bureaucratic condition needs at Magnus and Toot Hill secondary approach to building schools. We have developed and schools. Although they did not apply to be in the PSB are now using new baseline designs that are increasing programme, their condition needs could be addressed efficiencies, and we have also reduced the regulations through other funding that we have made available for and guidance governing school premises. maintenance work. 143WH Secondary Schools: Newark13 MARCH 2013 Secondary Schools: Newark 144WH

As I said earlier, the Department for Education help to provide the extra school places that will be provides capital funding to local authorities to carry needed if the planned housing developments in and out maintenance and repair work to existing school around Newark go ahead. buildings. Nottinghamshire has received £27 million for Setting up a free school is not an easy task, and I am condition maintenance in the last two years and will pleased that the academy trust has recognised the challenges receive a further £9.6 million in the coming financial it faces and shown its willingness to be flexible in year 2013-14, with further money after that. In addition, resolving them. We want the free school projects to schools in Nottinghamshire have received a further meet local needs, to be realistic about the challenges £5.1 million in devolved formula capital in the last two they face and to take the lead in finding solutions to years and will receive a further £2 million in the coming provide the best chance of enabling them to perform financial year. strongly from the outset and to deliver positive outcomes Toot Hill school is an academy and is able to apply to for pupils. the Academies Capital Maintenance Fund for funding to carry out maintenance and repair work. The Department Patrick Mercer: Can the Minister offer any crumb of is currently providing capital funding of £392 million hope to my constituents and me that the programme for for academies to access in the coming financial year the academy’s rebuild could be accelerated? 2013-14. I understand that Toot Hill school has submitted Mr Laws: I must be straightforward with my hon. an application for approximately £3 million for a new Friend. Our challenge is to try to deliver the programme teaching block. That application is currently being assessed in a sensible and prioritised way. Our current information against the others that we have received from across the about the schools in his area suggests that other schools country and we expect to be able to notify the academy are higher on the priority list. Senior people from the on the outcome of its application shortly, probably in Education Funding Agency have been looking closely April. at the matter in recent months, and have already carried In addition we will use the information from the out some scrutiny, but unless we can change our assessment national programme of surveys that we are conducting of the school’s needs compared with those of other across the country of every school to ensure that, schools, and accommodate some change in the batching subject to funds available in the next spending review arrangement—it is incredibly important to take them period, those schools that need renovation will have to market in batches, as he will understand—all we can their needs addressed as quickly as possible. By the do is move as rapidly as possible to put in place the autumn, we will have details about the condition of plans that we are discussing. I assure him that I will do every school in the country—information on the condition everything I can to move the whole programme forward—it of all schools was last collated centrally in 2005—and was always a five-year programme—as early as possible. we are waiting for that survey data before announcing We want all the buildings to be replaced as soon as the capital allocations for maintenance for 2014-15 possible, but I do not want to give false hope to my hon. because we want them to be informed by the outcome Friend. of that survey. I have said that I will ask my officials to communicate We are pleased to have agreed with the Exemplar with the school and the local authority, and to look at Academy Trust to delay the opening of the Exemplar the transition issues between now and 2017, which is Newark business academy to September 2014. In this our current working assumption. If there is any evidence case, both the Department and the academy trust judged of misjudgement in prioritisation, I will ask for another that the plans for the free school had not progressed close look to see whether we can do anything, but that sufficiently for it to proceed to opening in September will have to be based on careful evidence because it 2013. The academy trust came to that conclusion after would be inevitable that if one school came forward, reviewing early feedback from its consultation events. others would go backwards because of our scarce resources. Parents told it they supported its plans to open a free All the 261 schools that we have prioritised regard their school in Newark, but they wanted to know the precise challenges as real, and my hon. Friend can imagine details of location and the head teacher before requesting their reaction if the dates that have been indicated to a place for their child. them slipped backwards. I thank my hon. Friend for the time he has taken to I am enormously grateful to my hon. Friend for talk to members of the academy trust about the local drawing attention to the funding issues facing schools issues. I know that the trust valued the opportunity to in his area. I am sure he agrees that it is important to talk to him, and his willingness to take part in local focus our limited resources on those in most need. I events that it has held to consult properly on the issue. hope that I have explained the transparent process to Our priority must be to open free schools with the best prioritise the delivery of schools in the programme. I chance of performing strongly from the outset. We are congratulate the pupils, staff and parents at Newark in agreement with the trust that opening later will give it academy on last year’s GCSE results which, despite the the extra time it needs to develop and progress its plans. disruption to school life because of premises issues, It will allow more time to identify a head teacher and to continue a four-year upward trend which will, I am secure a suitable site for the new school. sure, continue to improve with the sponsorship of Lincoln college. Returning to a point that my hon. Friend made, the Question put and agreed to. free school will help to reduce the number of pupils within the Newark catchment area currently attending 5.28 pm schools outside Newark. In time, the school could also Sitting adjourned.

11WS Written Ministerial Statements13 MARCH 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 12WS

working in non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) Written Ministerial on the principles that they should observe in relation to the conduct of Government business in the run up to Statements the forthcoming elections to local authorities in England and Wales, and for the directly elected mayors in Doncaster and North Tyneside. These elections will take place on Wednesday 13 March 2013 Thursday 2 May 2013. The guidance sets out the need to maintain the political impartiality of the civil service, and the need to ensure that public resources are not used for party political ATTORNEY-GENERAL purposes. The period of sensitivity preceding the elections starts on 11 April. CPS Report Copies of the guidance have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses and on the Cabinet Office website at: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/election- The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve): The Director guidance-for-civil-servants. of Public Prosecutions (DPP) is today publishing a study undertaken by the Crown Prosecution Service into perverting the course of justice and wasting police FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE time in cases involving allegedly false rape and domestic violence allegations. The DPP published new legal guidance on perverting Falkland Islands Referendum the course of justice in July 2011 and, for a period of 17-months, required CPS areas to refer all cases involving an allegedly false allegation of rape, domestic violence The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth or both to him to consider. Affairs (Mr William Hague): I would like to update the House on the Government’s response to the Falkland The report examines all of those cases and in only a Islands referendum on their political status as a British very small number of cases was it considered that there overseas territory. was sufficient evidence and that it was in the public interest to prosecute a person suspected of making a On 10 and 11 March 2013, the Falkland islanders false allegation of rape or domestic violence. voted overwhelmingly to maintain their current constitutional arrangements with the United Kingdom. While the report shows that false allegations of rape The result is a clear democratic expression of the islanders’ and domestic violence are very rare, they are nevertheless wishes and was conducted in a free, fair and transparent very serious where they do exist. The report’s conclusions way. suggest that the CPS guidance for prosecutors on this issue is broadly in the right place and the findings will We believe that the result should be recognised by the help the CPS ensure that they are able to make consistent whole international community as a definitive act of and sound decisions in these difficult cases. self-determination. It has sent the clearest possible message to the Argentine Government that their demands to This publication is part of a wider programme of control the Falkland Islands against the wishes of the work for the CPS to improve its handling of cases people who live there are fundamentally incompatible involving violence against women and girls. with modern democratic values. Attempts to intimidate Copies of this report have been placed in the Libraries the islanders must cease. of both Houses. Representatives of the Falkland Islands Government will travel widely in the coming weeks to convey the result around Latin America and elsewhere. More broadly, CABINET OFFICE the Government will continue to strengthen our engagement with Latin America, as I set out in my Canning House speech in November 2010. The UK has considerable Local and Mayoral Election Guidance interests in the region, with high potential for future economic growth. I am confident that this increased co-operation and partnership with the countries of The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster Latin America is consistent with our desire to ensure General (Mr Francis Maude): Guidance has today been that the interests and wishes of the Falkland islanders issued to civil servants in UK departments and those are respected and protected.

213W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 214W Written Answers to Members: Correspondence Mr Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Questions and Commonwealth Affairs when he plans to respond to correspondence from the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay of 6 December 2012, 20 December 2012, Wednesday 13 March 2013 23 January 2013 and 26 February 2013 regarding a constituent, Ms Lynda Stares. [147706]

Alistair Burt: The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE for Boston and Skegness (Mark Simmonds), replied to my hon. Friend’s letter on 8 March 2013. I apologise for the delayed response. This was due to a technical error Bosnia and Herzegovina with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s IT system.

North Korea Bob Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has made of recent comments by elected politicians Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for in Bosnia and Herzegovina; and what assessment he Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will lead an has made of the potential of such comments to cause effort at the United Nations Human Rights Council’s further ethnic tension in that region. [147080] February to March session to secure the establishment of a Commission of Inquiry into human rights violations in North Korea. [147470] Mr Lidington: We remain concerned at the level of divisive ethnic rhetoric in Bosnia and Herzegovina (BiH) Mr Swire: The British Government will co-sponsor and at challenges to the legitimacy of the State from a UN resolution recommending that the UN establish a politicians in the Republika Srpska in particular. The Commission of Inquiry into human rights violations in Government unequivocally supports the territorial integrity North Korea. The Government will be lobbying members of BiH, and will not tolerate attempts to undermine the of the Human Rights Council to accept this proposal. Dayton Agreement or the rule of law in BiH. There remains a risk that political challenges might increase tensions and spill over to the security situation. We will continue to monitor this. We continue to work NORTHERN IRELAND through the International Community to promote stability and security in BiH. In this context, the executive Budget March 2013 mandates of the EU-led peacekeeping mission, EUFOR (European Union Force) Althea, and the High Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Representative remain important safeguards. Ireland what discussions Ministers in her Department The company of Irish Guards, which forms the UK had with Ministers in HM Treasury on Northern Ireland contribution to the EUFOR regional reserve, will deploy issues in the run-up to the Budget Statement. [147276] to BiH in April to participate in a EUFOR training exercise with BiH armed forces and undertake a range Mrs Villiers: I have regular discussions with Treasury of defence engagement activities. This demonstrates Ministers on a wide range of issues relating to Northern very visibly our continued commitment to ensuring the Ireland in the run-up to the Budget, but it has always stability and security of BiH. been the practice of successive Governments to keep all Budget-related discussions private.

British Indian Ocean Territory Electoral Register

Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the for Northern Ireland if she will provide additional reply on 6 March 2013, whether this is the review that he resources to the Electoral Commission in Northern indicated would take place in June 2010; and if he will Ireland to increase the number of electoral registration meet the Chagos Islands (BIOT) All-Party Parliamentary events to be held in areas affected by the recent Group to discuss the options being considered by the disturbances. [147191] review. [147612] Mike Penning: Electoral registration is the responsibility Mark Simmonds: No, this review follows the European of the Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland, not Court of Human Rights decision of December 2012. the Electoral Commission. As the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth I am pleased that the Electoral Office for Northern Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Ireland has been able to hold a number of registration (Yorks) (Mr Hague), said in his letter of 24 February to events in recent months. The Electoral Office has written the hon. Member, he would be happy to meet the to all the main political parties with an offer to hold All-Party Parliamentary Group later in the year when events and is also in touch with a number of community the Government has made progress with the review. organisations about their plans for registration activity. 215W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 216W

That activity has been managed within existing resources Gregory Barker: Solid wall insulation, cavity wall and includes 18 registration clinics throughout the month insulation and loft insulation are all eligible energy of March. saving measures in the Green Deal. Smart meters, which will be rolled out to all households, are not themselves Firearms: Licensing an eligible measure under the Green Deal, but they are expected to reinforce the Green Deal by encouraging Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern take-up of measures and helping consumers to maximise Ireland how many firearms licences have been (a) granted, their savings. (b) renewed and (c) revoked in each year since 2007. [147270] Ofgem

Mrs Villiers: The issuing of licences in respect of Pamela Nash: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy firearms is a devolved function that is exercised by the and Climate Change how many staff employed by Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI). You may Ofgem received bonuses in 2012. [147760] therefore wish to direct your question to them. Mr Hayes: The information requested is a matter for G8 Ofgem. I have asked the chief executive of Ofgem to write to the hon. Member and we will place a copy of his letter in the Libraries of the House. Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what discussions she has had with the Secretary Peat Bogs of State for the Home Department, the Scottish Government and the Welsh Government about security Sir Tony Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State in the run-up to the G8 Summit in Northern Ireland. for Energy and Climate Change what his policy is on [147275] the siting of energy infrastructure on peatlands. [146894] Mrs Villiers: I have discussed the G8 Summit with Ministers from across Government. Officials in the Mr Hayes: Applicants for consent for major energy Northern Ireland Office have been working closely with infrastructure must provide assessments of potential colleagues in the Home Office on G8 security issues and biodiversity and geological impacts which would include will continue to in the lead up to the Summit. To date an assessment of the effects of locating the infrastructure I have not had any discussions with the Scottish and on peatland if that was the case. The decision-making Welsh Governments on the topic of the G8 Summit. authority would need to take such impacts into account before making its decision. The National Policy Statement for Renewable Energy Infrastructure (EN-3)1 contains further information on ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE the assessment of applications for consent for onshore Biofuels wind farms on peat. 1https://Whitehall-admin.production.alphagov.co.uk/ government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/ Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Secretary of State for 37048/1940-nps-renewable-energy-en3.pdf Energy and Climate Change whether he plans to provide subsidies for bioliquids. [147662] Sir Tony Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what consideration is Mr Hayes: Bioliquids are currently supported in the given to the capacity of peatlands to sequester carbon renewables obligation (RO). To date the vast majority dioxide in the strategy to achieve carbon dioxide of bioliquids used to generate electricity under the RO reduction targets. [146896] have been derived from wastes or residues. Bioliquids can be highly sustainable and generate useful renewable Mr Hayes: We acknowledge the importance of peatland energy, and we consider it is right to continue to support restoration in maintaining carbon stocks and recognise electricity generated using these fuels under the RO. their potential for sequestering additional carbon. The RO includes sustainability criteria that bioliquids At present peatlands, are not accounted for in UK must meet in order to be eligible for support. Following greenhouse gas emissions reduction targets. The the recent banding review a 4% cap is being introduced Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) on the proportion of their renewables obligation that will publish a methodology to account for peatlands in suppliers can meet using renewables obligation certificates July 2013, and we are currently considering what land issued for electricity generated from bioliquids. The UK use and forestry activities the UK will account for in the will continue to support measures to improve the period 2013-20. sustainability criteria at a European level.

Green Deal Scheme WALES Christopher Pincher: To ask the Secretary of State for Plants Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has made of the use of (a) solid wall insulation, (b) cavity Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for wall insulation, (c) loft insulation, including lost Wales how much his Department spent on indoor and insulation top-ups and (d) smart meters in the Green outdoor plants and trees in each year between 2005 Deal. [147393] and 2010. [147426] 217W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 218W

Stephen Crabb: Between 2005 and 2009, the Wales Business: Lancaster Office did not purchase any plants. In 2010, the Office spent £20 on indoor plants. Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for The Wales Office did not purchase any trees between Business, Innovation and Skills what provisions he is 2005 and 2007. During this period the Office were making to ensure that small to medium-sized businesses gifted two Christmas trees each year from the Forestry in Lancaster and Fleetwood constituency have sufficient Commission in Wales. access to credit. [147524] From 2008 to 2010, the Wales Office purchased annually two Christmas trees from sustainable sources. The trees Michael Fallon: Ensuring the flow of credit to viable cost £120 in 2008, £210 in 2009 and £300 in 2010. small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) across the No other plants or trees have been purchased. UK is a core priority for this Government. We have taken a number of steps to ensure better Social Fund access to bank finance, including: Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Encouraging banks and building societies to increase lending what discussions he has had in the Joint Ministerial to UK households and businesses by lowering interest rates and increasing access to credit, through the Funding for Lending Committee on the localisation of the discretionary Scheme. social fund in Wales to the Welsh Government in April Ensuring viable businesses with insufficient track record/collateral 2013; and how this is to be administered. [147099] to secure a commercial loan, can still borrow from banks through the Enterprise Finance Guarantee (EFG). From January Stephen Crabb: Ministers meet regularly with the 2009 to date, there have been 22 EFG loans offered and drawn devolved Administrations in the Joint Ministerial down in Lancaster and Fleetwood with a total value of £2.42 Committee, most recently on 6 March 2013. The million. proceedings of the Joint Ministerial Committee are We have also taken a number of steps to encourage confidential in order to permit free and candid discussion, the development of alternative sources of finance, including as set out in the Memorandum of Understanding and incentivising private sector investment and creating the Supplementary Agreements between the United Kingdom conditions for small companies to grow using a range of Government, the Scottish Ministers, the Welsh Ministers, financing tools. Measures include: and the Northern Ireland Executive Committee. Increased funding for the Start-Up Loan Scheme by £30 million The Welsh Government will not be administering the to £110 million. The scheme provides advice and start-up discretionary element of the Social Fund. Some finance (around £2,500) for 18 to 30-year-olds looking to start discretionary payments are being abolished from April and grow their own businesses. Since its launch in 2012, there 2013 and funding is being provided for new better have been 28 loans approved in Lancashire with a total value targeted local provision through arrangements made by of £130,000. the Welsh and Scottish Governments and local authorities Direct investments in non bank sources of finance, through the in England. £1.2 billion Business Finance Partnership (BFP). A six month pilot from early 2013, providing a Government guarantee to Kingfisher Group to facilitate additional trade credit to SMEs. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Increased funding for the Government’s Enterprise Capital Bus Services: Conditions of Employment Funds programme, increasing our commitment by £200 million, providing for more than £300 million of venture capital investment Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for to address the equity gap for early stage innovative SMEs with Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment the highest growth potential. he has made of the (a) operation and (b) application Establishment of a £50 million Business Angel Co-Investment of the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Fund. The Fund invests with syndicates of business angels Employment) Regulations 2006 in the bus industry. who are interested in investing in SMEs in qualifying areas of England. [147671] In order to consolidate all these interventions, and address the Jo Swinson: We have not recently assessed the operation funding gap faced by small businesses, we have also announced and application of the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection the creation of a new Government-backed business bank. The Business Bank will receive £1 billion of Government funding, of Employment) Regulations 2006 (‘TUPE’) in the bus which it will use to lever in extra private sector finance. £300 industry. However, we are reviewing TUPE as part of million of this will be invested by the Government and private the Employment Law Review to ensure that, while investors over the next two years to provide diverse sources of complying with the provisions of the Acquired Rights funding for SMEs. Directive, the regulations are generally working effectively for both employers and employees. On 17 January 2013, Higher Education: Barrow in Furness the Government issued a formal consultation on possible amendments to the regulations. The consultation document John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for is at: Business, Innovation and Skills how many young https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/transfer-of- people completing full-time education in Barrow and undertakings-protection-of-employment-regulations-tupe- Furness constituency continued into higher education 2006-consultation-on-proposed-changes in each of the last five years; and what proportion of It is open to anyone, including representatives of the each cohort those figures represent. [147293] bus industry, to respond and I would very much encourage them to do so. The consultation closes on 11 April 2013 Mr Willetts: Figures on progression to higher education and the Government intends to respond within 12 weeks are not published at parliamentary constituency level of the date of closure. for individual years. 219W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 220W

The estimated proportions of maintained schools Regenerate Pennine Lancashire: a £7.5 million programme, pupils from Cumbria who progressed to higher education leveraging over £30 million private sector investment, to provide by age 19 are shown in the following table: capital investment for small and medium-sized enterprises to expand. Estimated proportions of maintained schools pupils from Cumbria who Lancashire Business View: a £4 million pan-Lancashire Programme progressed to higher education by age 19: UK Higher education institutions and English further education colleges providing capital grants to start up and young companies. Academic year Percentage entered HE Subject to due diligence (Round 3 contracting) the Lancashire LEP area has been allocated approaching 2006/07 32 £30 million across Rounds 1, 2 and 3 of the RGF. 2007/08 32 2008/09 32 2009/10 33 Shipping: Training Source: Matched data from the DFE National Pupil Database, the HESA Student Record and the SFA ILR John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Figures are not available before 2006/07. Robust figures Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has by parliamentary constituency are not available from made of the likely effects on training rates for seafarer this source. (a) ratings and (b) officers of not extending the right The Higher Education Funding Council for England to request time to train to employees working for (HEFCE) have published rates of participation of young companies with fewer than 250 staff. [147570] people in higher education over a five-year span. HEFCE estimate that the progression rate by age 19 for Barrow Matthew Hancock: While there has been no assessment and Furness parliamentary constituency was 30.7% in of the impact of changes to the right to request time to the period 2005/06 to 2009/10. This was lower than the train on individual sectors of the economy, the Government rate for Cumbria (32.9%) and the overall rate for England held an open consultation on the future of the right in (34.2%). HEFCE figures are not comparable with those August 2010. There was a good response to the consultation produced by BIS as they use different methodology. with 147 responses received by the closing date. Responses HEFCE figures use population estimates while the BIS to the consultation were strongly polarized. figures use matched data covering maintained schools We concluded it was appropriate to retain the right, pupils. but not proceed with the planned extension to employees Information on progression of pupils to higher education in small and medium-sized enterprises in April 2011. is available from the BIS Widening Participation statistical This decision recognised the need to maintain a focus release of August 2012: on the importance of workplace training, while protecting http://www.bis.gov.uk/analysis/statistics/higher-education/ smaller businesses from potential burdens in line with official-statistics-releases/widening-participation-in-higher- the Coalition’s principles for reducing regulation and education/widening-participation-in-higher-education-2012 creating conditions for growth. The HEFCE report on young participation is available The Government intends to undertake a formal from the following link: evaluation of the right by April 2015. This will allow an http://www.hefce.ac.uk/pubs/year/2012/201226/#d.en.75676 evidence-based decision to be made at that stage whether Detailed information is available at the following the right should then be extended to employees in small link: and medium organisations, be retained in its current form, or be repealed. http://www.hefce.ac.uk/whatwedo/wp/ourresearch/polar/ polar3data/ The Merchant Navy Training Board has responsibility for setting and approving training standards for British Investment: Lancaster seafarers in the Merchant Navy. These are designed to meet international requirements as well as providing Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for recognised qualifications. Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking to promote private investment in Lancaster and Fleetwood constituency. [147525] Shops: Empty Property

Michael Fallon: The Government wants to make the Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, UK the best place in the world to start, finance and Innovation and Skills pursuant to the Answer of 21 January grow a business. We are supporting businesses across 2013, Official Report, column 114W, on shops: empty the UK by enabling better access to both debt and property, what research, surveys, studies or data gathering equity finance; reducing red tape; providing easier access his Department has (a) commissioned and (b) subscribed to public procurement opportunities; and making sure to on shop vacancy rates by locality. [147290] that the support we provide is delivered in the most effective and efficient way possible. Michael Fallon: The Department for Business, Innovation The Lancashire Local Enterprise Partnership (LEP), and Skills (BIS) and the Department for Communities which includes Lancaster and Fleetwood, brings together and Local Government have observer status on the business and civic leaders to drive sustainable economic Distressed Town Centre Properties Task Force, chaired growth. by the British Council of Shopping Centres, which is Several Regional Growth Fund (RGF) projects have currently undertaking a research project which includes been selected in the county of Lancashire which have an analysis of vacancy rates and the impact on town benefitted the whole area: centres. 221W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 222W

BIS has also a long-standing subscription with Verdict DEFENCE Research, whose reports on a wide range of retail issues include data and analysis on vacancy rates in localities. Afghanistan In 2011 the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills published a report ’Understanding High Street Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Performance’ which also included data and analysis on Defence what plans he has for the future of artificial vacancy rates. limb services at Headley Court after the end of UK There are also several commercial sources of shop military involvement in Afghanistan; whether the scale vacancy rates data, including that available from the of such services will be maintained; whether there will Local Data Company and Springboard, and who publish be spare capacity for use by limbless veterans who have overall trends in the public domain. returned to civilian life; and if he will make a statement. [146956] Ultra Electronics Mr Francois: Ministers give the highest priority to the care pathway for injured troops, including the role Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, of the Defence Medical Rehabilitation Centre at Headley Innovation and Skills what meetings (a) Ministers, (b) Court in rehabilitation. officials and (c) special advisers of his Department have had with Mr Douglas Caster, Chairman of Ultra The Government has made £6.5 million available to Electronics Holdings plc, since May 2010. [147206] guarantee that all serving and former members of our armed forces injured serving in Iraq or Afghanistan will Jo Swinson: Mr Douglas Caster met with Lord Green be able to have the latest technology prosthetics. of Hurstpierpoint and other Members of the Middle The clinical requirement for rehabilitation at Headley East Task Force on 11 July 2011 and 7 February 2012. Court is continually monitored. The Ministry of Defence No records are held of meetings between Mr Douglas (MOD) is in a commercial relationship with Chas A Caster and any other BIS Minister or their special Blatchford and Son Ltd for the provision of prosthetics advisers. services, which is based on sessional engagement to meet any increase or decrease of service needed. The Any information relating to meetings held between contract works exceptionally well for Defence and is officials and Mr Douglas Caster could be provided only flexible enough to meet demand. at disproportionate cost. Equally, the Government is investing up to £15 million Vocational Training over three years to support the key recommendations contained in the report by the Minister for International Security Strategy, my hon. Friend the Member for South Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), published on 27 October Innovation and Skills how many of the successful bidders 2011, ‘Better Deal for Military Amputees’, which sought under the first round of the Employer Ownership Pilot to improve prosthetics services for armed forces veterans have not yet drawn down funds. [147288] who have lost a limb due to activities while serving their country. As such, the Department of Health recently Matthew Hancock: 25 Round 1 Employer Ownership announced the locations for nine prosthetic and projects are now operational. Of these, 15 have not yet rehabilitation centres across England, for amputee veterans. drawn down any funding. The choice of centre should be based on the patient’s Funding for the projects is paid against actual delivery, place of residence but with the knowledge that the claimed in the majority of cases on a quarterly cycle. prosthetic support will be maintained at the same level, The 15 projects above have therefore started to deliver subject to clinical need, as that provided at the Defence but have not yet made their first claim. Individual Medical Rehabilitation Centre. The Government wants Grant Offer Letters set out the timetable for payments to raise awareness of this funding so that all veterans against milestones agreed with each grant recipient. who have lost a limb in the service of their country can There are also a small number of projects in the final benefit from the work the NHS can do with prosthetics. stages of grant negotiation and due diligence checks, which are not yet operational. Armed Forces: Redundancy

Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for Innovation and Skills by what date he expects all funds Defence how many personnel from Northern Ireland to be available to be drawn down by successful bidders serving in the (a) Royal Navy, (b) Army and (c) Royal under the second round of the Employer Ownership Air Force were made redundant in (i) tranche 1 and (ii) Pilot; and what deadlines he has set for this. [147289] tranche 2; what support has been provided to them to enable them to find suitable alternative employment; Matthew Hancock: Funding for the Employer Ownership and if he will make a statement. [147262] Pilot is within the Adult Skills Budget and is already available for the project. Mr Francois: We estimate that, in a typical year, some As payments will usually be made quarterly in arrears 2% of those joining the armed forces have made use of against agreed milestones we would expect the first a careers office in Northern Ireland. However this figure claims to be received in January 2014 for projects starting is only indicative of the proportion originating in Northern in October 2013. Grant payments will be negotiated Ireland, as recruits can join the services at any Careers individually with the grant recipient so a deadline for Office, irrespective of where they reside. The armed payments cannot be set. forces’ administrative systems record the nationality of 223W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 224W recruits from Northern Ireland as British. Although Support to current operations in Afghanistan remains service personnel have the option of recording a secondary our priority, but we also ensure that we are able to nationality (such as ‘British/N Irish’), this is voluntary, provide contingent capability to deal with a wide range so we cannot state with certainty how many of those of security challenges to UK interests. That was the made redundant in tranches 1 and 2 originate in Northern case before the recent events in North Africa and it will Ireland. remain the case. Regardless of their place of origin, prior to leaving, Pipelines all service personnel are entitled to some form of resettlement assistance consisting of time, money and training according to length of service. Those who have Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence served six years or more, and all those medically discharged what revenue is currently received from the Government regardless of how long served, are entitled to the full pipeline and storage system. [147605] resettlement programme, which includes a three-day career transition workshop, use of a career consultant, Mr Dunne [holding answer 12 March 2013]: The a job-finding service, retraining time and retraining revenue received from the Government Pipeline and grant. Individuals selected for redundancy are entitled Storage System (GPSS) is included in the impact assessment to the same resettlement package which they would which was published alongside the draft Energy Bill in have received had they completed the whole of their November 2012. The GPSS’ revenue comprises payments service commitment. This resettlement package includes from the United States Visiting Forces and commercial the services of the Career Transition Partnership which sources for the use of spare capacity totalling £39 million. has a Regional Resettlement Centre at Aldergrove. In addition, the Ministry of Defence pays a notional Furthermore, service leavers are entitled to lifetime charge of approximately £13 million per annum. job-finding support through either the Officers Association Rosyth Dockyard or the Regular Forces Employment Association. Cybercrime Mr Gordon Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when he expects to announce final decisions following the consultation on the disposal of seven Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for decommissioned nuclear submarines currently located Defence how much funding he has allocated under each at Rosyth. [146761] budget heading to his Department’s cyber-security budget in each of the last three years. [141226] Mr Dunne: As part of the Submarine Dismantling Project, the Ministry of Defence (MOD) carried out a Mr Robathan [holding answer 4 February 2013]: Cyber public consultation on its proposals for dismantling the security is the responsibility of all personnel within the UK’s redundant defuelled nuclear-powered submarines, Ministry of Defence, and we are taking action to treat it including those in afloat storage at Devonport and as a mainstream task in the way we conduct operations Rosyth dockyards. and business. In doing so, we draw on funding from a wide range of sources and budgets. Full details are The MOD has revised its analysis to take account of being withheld for the purpose of safeguarding national the comments received during consultation, which has security.However, the MOD is currently investing centrally informed the business case prepared as part of the allocated money from the National Cyber Security MOD’s Main Gate approval process. We expect to programme as an outcome of the strategic defence and announce the resultant decisions in the near future. security review 2010. Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Fires: Nuisance Defence when he expects the Joint Strike Fighter to be cleared for flight testing. [145269] Steve Brine: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will take Mr Dunne: A flight clearance for the Joint Strike steps to encourage more local authorities to adopt Fighter (JSF) flight test fleet was issued on 1 March 2013. appropriate codes of practice to deal with nuisance bonfires. [147475] North Africa Richard Benyon: In some circumstances smoke from Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence bonfires can constitute a statutory nuisance under the what assessment he has made of the effect of recent Environmental Protection Act 1990. That legislation events in North Africa on future defence operational gives local authorities the powers to deal with statutory capability. [147050] nuisances. Local authorities take into account a number of case-specific factors when assessing statutory nuisance Mr Robathan [holding answer 11 March 2013]: The complaints, including the reasonableness of the activity Defence Equipment Plan and Future Force 2020 will being carried out, the time of day of the occurrence, its deliver agile and capable British forces that will continue duration and its frequency of occurrence. The local to meet the range of military tasks set out in the authority is best placed to assess and react to individual Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR) in 2010, and local circumstances, and to determine how it will and thus ensure that we can react quickly to emerging enforce the legislation and ensure that the local community and novel threats. does not suffer from nuisance bonfires. 225W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 226W

Greenhouse Gas Emissions The maintenance of assets is carried out using a risk-based approach. This allows investment to be made Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for where it will contribute most to reducing the potential Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will institute for damage and where it is economically and independent testing and accreditation of the leakage environmentally justified. Each site is different so the rates of fluorinated gases from heat pumps. [147637] Environment Agency chooses the most suitable maintenance activity for each stretch of river, coastline Richard Benyon: The requirements of the current EU or defence system. Regulation on fluorinated gases (EC 842/2006) for The figures shown are for maintenance work carried containment, leakage detection and prevention, and for out by the Environment Agency that includes: related training and certification already apply to fluorinated maintaining flood barriers and pumping stations; gases in a range of equipment, including heat pumps. clearing grills and removing obstructions from rivers; We are not considering introducing any further controlling aquatic weed within rivers; requirements under this regulation relating specifically dredging and de-silting of rivers; to fluorinated gases in heat pumps. managing grass, trees and bushes on flood embankments; and inspection and repair of flood defence structures. Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what his The Environment Agency is working in partnership Department’s most recent greenhouse gas conversion in a number of areas to improve its efficiency. It is on factors for leakage rates of heat pumps are; and whether track to achieve its corporate plan target for asset those conversion factors have been independently verified. condition in ‘high consequence systems’, ensuring at [147665] least 97% of these assets are in target condition. Litter: Yorkshire and the Humber Richard Benyon: The 2012 update of the DEFRA/ Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) conversion factors states that the annual leakage rate Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for for heat pumps is 6%. This figure is taken from an Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) how many independent study carried out by ICF in 2011, street litter control notices have been issued in (a) Brigg commissioned by DECC. The study reviewed and updated and Goole constituency and (b) Yorkshire and the or replaced all assumptions, and rebuilt the model for Humber in each of the last five years; [147055] estimating emissions from refrigeration and air conditioning (2) how many litter clearance notices have been issued for the UK greenhouse gas inventory. Section 4.9 of the in (a) Brigg and Goole constituency and (b) Yorkshire report relates to heat pumps with all references elaborated and the Humber in each of the last five years. [147056] in section 4.9.4. The report is available on: www.gov.uk Richard Benyon: Information on street litter control at: notices and litter clearance notices is not held centrally. www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Slaughterhouses: Inspections attachment_data/file/48250/3844-greenhouse-gas-inventory- improvement-project-deve.PDF Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Inland Waterways Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many checks were made on abattoirs in England in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012; how many staff were employed in Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for making those checks; and how many prosecutions resulted Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much the from those checks. [147268] Environment Agency spent on watercourse maintenance work in each year since 2007-08; and how much the Anna Soubry: I have been asked to reply on behalf of Environment Agency will spend in this manner in the the Department of Health. next three years. [142272] Food Standards Agency (FSA) official veterinarians and meat hygiene inspectors, either employed by the Richard Benyon: The Environment Agency has assessed FSA, or supplied through an approved contractor, are that the following amounts were allocated to its maintenance typically present during processing of animals. They of watercourses for each year listed in the following carry out a range of duties, including ante- and post table. The figure for 2014-15 shows the indicative allocation. mortem checks (checks on live animals and carcases and offal) and checks on the health and welfare of Maintenance of watercourses (£ million) animals presented for slaughter. These official control duties ensure that food businesses operators have produced 2007-08 n/a meat in accordance with regulatory requirements, with 2008-09 68 a health mark applied to show that meat is safe to enter 2009-10 68 the food chain. 2010-11 57 As well as daily checks, official veterinarians also 2011-12 53 carry out audits on a risk-based frequency. The following 2012-13 57 table states the number of food business operator audits 2013-14 45 completed at slaughterhouses (red meat, poultry and 2014-15 39 game handling establishments) in England in 2010, n/a = not available. 2011 and 2012: 227W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 228W

recognition technology there have been since 2010 in Number of audits (a) the UK and (b) Northamptonshire. [147634] 2010 664 2011 742 Mr Jeremy Browne: The data requested is not held 2012 759 centrally. The following table states the number of frontline Communications Data Bill (Draft) staff, employed or supplied through contractors, carrying out official control duties in FSA approved meat Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for the establishments in England in 2010, 2011 and 2012: Home Department what documents explaining the details of the revised draft Communications Data Bill her Number of staff (full-time Department has prepared and published. [147499] equivalents) James Brokenshire: Alongside the draft Bill, the 2010 911 Government published a range of supporting documents, 2011 899 including Explanatory Notes, a Delegated Powers 2012 878 Memorandum and a Memorandum on its compliance The following table states the number of prosecutions with the European Convention on Human Rights, and for approved slaughterhouses that resulted from referrals an explanatory ’Q&A’ briefing document. We also for offences in each of the years 2010, 2011 and 2012 submitted extensive written evidence to the Joint Committee (i.e. that can be said to have resulted from inspections in on the draft Communications Data Bill. those years): The Bill and its supporting documents are being revised in line with the Joint Committee’s recommendations Prosecutions —the substance of all of which the Government has accepted—and the Government will bring forward 2010 8 legislation in due course. A range of further explanatory 2011 4 material will be published to support the legislative 2012 2 process. Dangerous Driving

HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for the Conditions of Employment Home Department (1) how many people received the maximum two year custodial penalty for dangerous Julie Elliott: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, driving while (a) under the influence of alcohol and Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of (b) not under the influence of alcohol in each of the Commons Commission, how many people are employed last 10 years; [139817] on zero-hour contracts in the House of Commons. (2) how many people have been given a custodial [146614] sentence for drink driving since 2000; [139991] (3) how many people received the maximum custodial John Thurso: As at 31 January 2013, 157 people were penalty for drink driving in each year since 2000. employed by the House of Commons on casual contracts, [139992] where they are contracted to work for an unspecified number of hours a week. This represents some 8.8% of Jeremy Wright: I have been asked to reply on behalf the total work force. They work in a wide range of roles of the Ministry of Justice. including in catering and as visitor assistants. As far as possible, hours to be worked—which vary considerably—are The number of offenders sentenced at all courts to decided in advance on the basis of mutual agreement. the maximum custodial sentence of two years for dangerous These staff are in receipt of many of the same benefits driving offences, in England and Wales, from 2002 to as other members of House staff, such as 28 days 2011 (latest data available), can be viewed in Table 1. annual leave a year (accrued based on each hour that The Ministry of Justice Court Proceedings Database they work) and sick absence pay. They are also entitled holds information on defendants proceeded against, to join the House of Commons pension scheme from found guilty and sentenced for criminal offences in their first day and are automatically enrolled into if England and Wales. This database holds information they are contracted for a year or more. on offences provided by the statute under which proceedings are brought, but not the specific circumstances of each case. It is not possible to separately identify from centrally held data whether a defendant found guilty of a dangerous HOME DEPARTMENT driving offence was under the influence of alcohol at Automatic Number Plate Recognition the time of the offence. The number of offenders sentenced at all courts to Michael Ellis: To ask the Secretary of State for the immediate custody, and the maximum custodial sentence, Home Department what changes in the frequency of for drink driving offences, in England and Wales, from seizure of stolen vehicles and vehicles otherwise used in 2002 to 2011 (latest data available), can be viewed in crime that can be attributed to automatic number plate Table 2. 229W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 230W

Table 1: Offenders sentenced at all courts to the maximum custodial sentence of two years for dangerous driving offences1, England and Wales, 2002-112, 3. England and Wales Number of offenders Offence 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 20084 2009 2010 2011

Maximum sentence of two years 14141041184356 for dangerous driving 1 Includes offences under section 2 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 as amended by Road Traffic Act 1991. 2 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 4 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July and August 2008. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice. Table 2: Defendants sentenced at all courts to immediate custody, and the maximum custodial sentence, for drink driving offences1, in England and Wales, 2002-112, 3. England and Wales Number of offenders Offence 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 20084 2009 2010 2011

Immediate custody 2,723 2,484 2,424 2,240 1,843 1,669 1,449 1,217 900 791 Of which: Maximum custodial sentence 152 132 120 73 50 38 17 16 6 12 of six months 1 Includes the following offences: Road Traffic Act 1988, S.4(1)—Driving or attempting to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle whilst unfit to drive through drink Road Traffic Act 1988, S.4(2)—Being in charge of mechanically propelled vehicle whilst unfit to drive through drink Road Traffic Act 1988, S.5(1)(a)—Driving or attempting to drive a motor vehicle while having a breath, blood or urine alcohol concentration in excess of the prescribed limit Road Traffic Act 1988, S.5(1)(b)—In charge of a motor vehicle while having a breath, blood or urine alcohol concentration in excess of the prescribed limit Road Traffic Act 1988, S.6(6)—Failing without reasonable excuse to provide a specimen of breath for a preliminary test 2 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 4 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July and August 2008 Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice.

Deportation: Zimbabwe Mr Harper: The following table provides the published information on the number of removals and voluntary Michael Ellis: To ask the Secretary of State for the departures for nationals of Zimbabwe by destination in Home Department how many people of Zimbabwean each year from the UK, 2010 to 2012. origin have been removed to countries other than Zimbabwe since 2010. [147656]

Removals and voluntary departures for nationals of Zimbabwe by destination, 2010 to 20121,2 Number of departures Total non- asylum refused entry Total EU member Other and at port and EU member Other and enforced state (if destination subsequently state (if destination removals Home different) unknown departed Home different) unknown

2010371716420497 20113 412812116268 20123 49407218585

Number of departures EU member state Other and destination Total voluntary departures Home (if different) unknown

2010 466 376 4 86 20113 271 195 5 71 20123 194 146 4 44 1 Destination as recorded on source database. 2 Removals arc recorded on the system as at the dates on which the data extracts were taken. 3 Provisional figures. Figures will under record due to data cleansing and data matching exercises that take place after the extracts are taken. 231W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 232W

The Home Office publishes quarterly and annual Mr Harper: I wrote to the right hon. Member on statistics on the number of persons removed or departed 13 March 2013. voluntarily from the UK within Immigration Statistics. The data on removals and voluntary departures by Vetting nationality and destination is available in the latest release, ‘Immigration Statistics: October-December 2012’, Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the tables rv.05 and rv.05.q, from the Library of the House Home Department what plans she has to appeal against and from the Home Office Science, research and statistics the recent decision by the Court of Appeal on the web pages at: disclosure of cautions on a Criminal Records Bureau http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/research- check. [146422] statistics/migration/migration-statistics1/ James Brokenshire [holding answer 5 March 2013]: Entry Clearances: Overseas Students The Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for the May), and the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State Home Department (1) how many people who have for Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom applied for a student visa in the UK have been waiting and Ewell (Chris Grayling), have applied for permission more than four weeks for a decision on their application; to appeal this decision to the Supreme Court. [140185] (2) what the average waiting time for student visa applications made inside the UK was in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012; and how many such applicants TRANSPORT waited more than four weeks for a decision on their London Midland application. [140186] Mr Harper: As of 24 February 2013 a total of 16,391 Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for tier 4 student applications had been waiting more than Transport what conversations (a) he and (b) Ministers four weeks for a decision. in his Department have had with officials from London The average waiting and processing times for tier 4 Midland since the start of 2013 on its levels of service in-country student applications are provided in the and cancellations; and if he will make a statement. following tables. [147189] Table 1: Average processing time based on despatch date, 1 January 2010 to September 2012 Norman Baker: Department for Transport officials Despatch years Tier 4 (days) hold regular meetings with London Midland to monitor and scrutinise its performance. 2010 49 I spoke to London Midland’s Managing Director 2011 41 before Christmas to discuss their performance, and am 2012 (January to September) 84 meeting him to discuss this again shortly. Table 2: Tier 4 applications taking more than four weeks The Department continues to hold London Midland 1 January 2010 to 30 September 2012 to account to ensure that services improve. Despatch years Tier 4 (number) Rescue Services: Belfast 2010 102,406 2011 78,553 Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport 2012 (January to September) 48,647 on how many occasions Maritime Rescue Co-ordination 1. All figures quoted have been derived from management information Centre, Belfast was staffed at below risk-assessed levels and are therefore provisional and subject to change. This information has not been quality assured under National Statistics in February 2013. [147370] protocols. 2. Figures relate to main applicants only. Stephen Hammond: Belfast Maritime Rescue Co- 3. Figures relate to postal and premium (i.e. submitted at Public ordination Centre (MRCC) was staffed at below risk Enquiry Offices) applications. assessed levels in February 2013 on 46 occasions out of 4. Processing time is based on the average number of calendar days between the application raised {i.e. received) and decision despatch date. 56 shifts. In country growth in average processing time is due These situations are mitigated by ’MRCC pairing’ to increased intake across Temporary Migration routes. where each MRCC is connected to at least one other We have committed additional resource to the tier 4 MRCC which is available to provide mutual support. In route in response to the increased processing times. We respect of MRCC Belfast mutual support is available anticipate achieving the current service standard; to through a fixed link from MRCC Stornoway and dial consider 80% applications within four weeks of an up links from the MRCCs at Shetland, Aberdeen, Liverpool applicant registering their biometrics, from April 2013. or Holyhead. Members: Correspondence Rescue Services: Stornoway

Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport the Home Department when she intends to reply to the on how many occasions Maritime Rescue Co-ordination letter dated 28 January 2013 from the right hon. Stornoway was staffed at below risk assessed levels in Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Mr S (a) December 2012, (b) January 2013 and (c) February Rizvi. [147474] 2013. [147372] 233W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 234W

Stephen Hammond: Stornoway Maritime Rescue Brandon Lewis: The Department of Communities Coordination Centre (MRCC) was staffed below the and Local Government does not produce such guidance. risk assessed levels in: The Department for Business Innovation and Skills (a) December 2012 on 20 occasions out of 62 shifts has policy responsibility for employment rights. (b) January 2013 on three occasions out of 62 shifts Council Housing: Greater London (c) February 2013 on eight occasions out of 56 shifts These situations are mitigated by ’MRCC pairing’ Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for where each MRCC is connected to at least one other Communities and Local Government which local MRCC which is available to provide mutual support. In authorities in Greater London rehoused people outside respect of MRCC Stornoway mutual support is available their local authority areas in 2012; how many people through a fixed link from MRCC Belfast and dial up each local authority rehoused to another local authority links from the MRCCs at Shetland or Aberdeen. area; and in which local authority areas these people were rehoused. [146476] Roads: Accidents Mr Prisk: The number of households placed in Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for temporary accommodation, by local authorities under Transport what proportion of traffic collisions in the homelessness legislation, outside their own local authority last year involved drivers who had only recently passed area as at 30 September 2012 for each local authority in their driving test. [147522] Greater London is given in the following table. Information on the location of such households is not collected. Stephen Hammond: The Department only collects Households in temporary accommodation information relating to personal injury road accidents, Number of households in and therefore does not include damage-only accidents temporary accommodation in its statistics. For many of these accidents we hold within another local authority data on contributory factors which reflect the opinion district as at 30 September 2012 of the police officer attending the scene. Barking and Dagenham 124 In 2011, 2.5% of drivers were allocated the contributory Barnet 309 factor ‘learner or inexperienced driver’ in reported personal Bexley 109 injury accidents where at least one contributory factor Brent 275 was reported. As with all contributory factors, this Bromley 229 reflects the police officer’s subjective opinion, and there Camden 282 is no formal definition of an ‘inexperienced’ driver for City of London 12 this purpose. Croydon 0 Statistics for the year 2012 will be available in June Ealing 7 2013. Enfield 122 Greenwich 72 Shipping: Regulation Hackney 106 Hammersmith and Fulham 453 John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Haringey 848 Transport which regulations applying to the maritime Harrow 0 industry his Department has proposed to ministerial Havering 0 colleagues in the Department for Business, Innovation Hillingdon 1 and Skills for consideration as part of the Employment Hounslow 179 Law Review 2010-15. [147569] Islington 451 Kensington and Chelsea 970 Stephen Hammond: In consideration of the maritime Kingston upon Thames 50 Red Tape Challenge, the Department is examining the Lambeth 392 body of maritime law including as they relate to maritime Lewisham 1— employment law. Merton 23 The Government plans to make a public announcement Newham 792 on the outcome shortly. Redbridge 387 Richmond upon Thames 86 Southwark 53 Sutton 42 COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Tower Hamlets 257 Waltham Forest 492 Bus Services: Conditions of Employment Wandsworth 74 Westminster 1— Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 The local authority did not report a figure. Communities and Local Government what guidance Source: his Department issues to local authorities on the application P1E returns from local authorities of the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Information is not collected on the number of households Employment) Regulations 2006 when a bus company that are made offers of settled accommodation in another contracted to provide transport services goes into local authority district pursuant to a duty under administration. [147669] homelessness legislation. 235W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 236W

Information on the location of households prior to 2011-12, 2012-13 and 2013-14 in respect of 1,354 homes being offered permanent social lettings is reported by (666 new builds and conversions; and 688 long-term social landlords; however it is not possible to identify empty homes brought back into use). the reasons why households move from one authority New Homes Bonus is a powerful, simple, transparent to another. and permanent incentive for local authorities and The Greater London Authority’s mobility scheme— communities to increase their aspirations for housing Seaside and Country Homes—offers people who are growth. The Government does not make separate estimates aged 60 and over and live in social housing in London of the quantitative impact of New Homes Bonus on the opportunity to move voluntarily to housing association local councils’ decision making. properties across the south coast, in East Anglia, Kent The New Homes Bonus impact assessment, published and Shropshire. with the consultation at: Homeless households solely reliant on benefits should https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ not expect to be housed in properties that are unaffordable attachment_data/file/8517/1767788.pdf to working families. But, in the vast majority of cases, (see pages 36 to 59) illustrates the potential effect of local this will not mean local authorities have to move homeless authorities’ response to the incentives. households far away from their communities. Strengthened legislation means authorities must, if Local Government: Conditions of Employment they regard it essential to move a family, carefully consider the impact a change in location would have— Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for including possible disruption to employment, education Communities and Local Government what his policy is and caring responsibilities of the claimant and their on the application of the Transfer of Undertakings family. The legislation and the guidance on this is clear (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006 when and we expect local authorities to follow it. local authority contractors go into administration. First Time Buyers: Brigg [147670]

Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for Brandon Lewis: It is for each local authority to take Communities and Local Government what steps his account of its responsibilities under the Transfer of Department is taking to assist young people in Brigg Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations and Goole constituency to buy their first property. 2006 when contracting out its services. [146967] Shops: Empty Property Mr Prisk [holding answer 11 March 2013]: This Government is committed to supporting buyers to get Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for on to, and move up, the housing ladder and has taken a Communities and Local Government pursuant to the number of steps which can help first time buyers. answer of 21 January 2013, Official Report, column 77W, Steps taken by this Government to support young on shops: empty property, what research, surveys, studies people to buy their first property include: the NewBuy or data gathering his Department has (a) commissioned Guarantee scheme which helps buyers with a 5% deposit and (b) subscribed to on shop vacancy rates by locality. buy a new build home; FirstBuy which helps those who [147297] would otherwise not be able to afford to buy a home; and reinvigorating Right to Buy by increasing the maximum Mr Prisk: My Department has not commissioned or discount available to social tenants to £75,000, to help subscribed to any sources on shop vacancy. buy their home. First time buyers are also being assisted by low interest rates, which are a consequence of the Government’s TREASURY actions to tackle the deficit left by the last Administration. The Funding for Lending scheme is also assisting by Business: Finance increasing the general availability of mortgages at competitive rates. Mr Umunna: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer The Department does not produce statistics by what monitoring his Department has undertaken of constituency, on the numbers of young people who the Business Finance Partnership; and what reports have been assisted in buying their first property. have been produced as part of this process. [147291] Housing: Kingston Upon Hull Sajid Javid: Progress with the Business Finance Partnership has been announced in successive Budgets Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for and autumn statements and published on the HM Treasury Communities and Local Government how many new website: homes in Hull have qualified for the New Homes Bonus (NHB) to date; how much funding has been given to www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/bfp.htm Hull City Council under the NHB to date; and what Further updates will be published in due course. estimate he has made of the number of new houses built Corporation Tax: Northern Ireland in Hull as a result of the NHB. [147414]

Mr Prisk [holding answer 12 March 2013]: New Ms Ritchie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Homes Bonus grant totalling £3,265,091 has been allocated pursuant to the answer of 23 January 2013, Official to Kingston-upon-Hull council across the financial years Report, column 449W, on corporation tax: Northern 237W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 238W

Ireland, whether he has set a date for a decision on the Mr Gauke: There are currently 190 (full-time equivalents) devolution of corporation tax to Northern Ireland. working on the Affluent Teams in HMRC—all having [147073] been appointed to the Teams since 2010. To date no additional staff have been employed outside of HMRC Mr Gauke: The Joint Ministerial Working Group on and the 190 have all been redeployed within from HMRC. rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy has concluded There is currently an external recruitment exercise to its discussions on the potential devolution of corporation recruit 18 Higher Officers and nine Grade 7 Case Directors tax and reported its findings to the Prime Minister. A from outside of HMRC. decision on the report will be made in due course. Revenue and Customs: Cumbria Floods: Insurance John Woodcock: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Miss McIntosh: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many staff were employed by HM Revenue and if he will take fiscal steps to agree the successor to the Customs in (a) Barrow and Furness constituency and statement of principles of flood insurance; and if he (b) Cumbria in each of the last five years. [147296] will make a statement. [147420] Mr Gauke: The information requested is as follows: Sajid Javid: The availability and affordability of insurance in flood risk areas is an important issue for this Government. Barrow and Furness Cumbria Constructive negotiations continue with the insurance industry and Government on a range of approaches 31 March 2012 6 395 that could succeed the current Statement of Principles. 31 March 2011 6 424 The Government is on course to spend £2.3 billion on 31 March 2010 21 494 reducing the risk from flooding and coastal erosion and 1 April 2009 33 569 deliver better protection to 165,000 households over the 1 April 2008 42 263 four years to March 2015. Tax Avoidance and Evasion Local Government Julie Elliott: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps he is taking to reduce (a) tax evasion and what additional powers and resources city regions will (b) tax avoidance. [147248] receive as a consequence of City Deals. [147187] Mr Gauke: The Government is fully committed to Greg Clark: Details of the deals agreed between the tackling tax avoidance and evasion, and is taking steps Government and the eight core cities can be found at: to protect the Exchequer. http://www.dpm.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/content/city-deals The Government is already reinvesting nearly £1 billion The Government has also announced that it will negotiate in HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) to expand its deals with an additional 20 cities and hope to conclude anti-avoidance and evasion activity. Following a further these within a year. investment of £77 million, announced on 3 December last year, HMRC will now aim to raise total additional Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer revenues of £22 billion per annum by the end of 2014-15. how much additional inward investment he expects City Alongside this investment, we are also implementing Deals to generate by 2015. [147188] a number of policy changes to crack down on tax avoidance. For instance, we are introducing the UK’s Greg Clark: In July last year the Government announced first General Anti-Abuse Rule in this year’s Finance Bill that it had concluded deals with the eight core cities to to tackle abusive avoidance schemes and are enhancing devolve power and responsibilities to drive forward the Disclosure of Tax Avoidance Schemes regime. economic growth. The Government recently announced HMRC is also addressing tax evasion through a that it would extend the city deals programme and number of operational changes; by using enhanced negotiate deals with a further 20 cities over the next technology to detect those who do not declare their full year. tax liability, by deploying taskforces aimed at particular City deals are not about central Government setting trades and professions and by establishing specialist targets but about decentralising power to ensure cities teams to tackle affluent individuals with hidden assets have the tools to drive forward economic growth. The in the UK or offshore. levels of additional inward investment as a result of city deals will therefore vary depending on individual priorities Taxation: Business but we are working with colleagues in UK Trade and Investment to help cities increase inward investment Julie Elliott: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer where it is a priority for them. how much additional revenue has been collected through HM Revenue and Customs’ Large Business Revenue and Customs Service in each of the last four years. [147244]

Julie Elliott: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr Gauke: The additional revenues brought in through how many additional staff have been employed by HM the compliance work of HM Revenue and Customs’ Revenue and Customs’ Affluent Unit since 2010. Large Business Service in the last four years were as [147243] follows: 239W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 240W

Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 1 March 2013]: Head £ million teachers are best placed to decide which resources will 2008-09 4,862 best support successful implementation of the new 2009-10 4,555 curriculum in their schools, and on the priorities for 2010-11 5,742 continuing professional development (CPD) for their 2011-12 5,041 staff, and to secure these accordingly. To assist them we are adapting existing initial teacher training and CPD Welfare Tax Credits programmes and working with a range of stakeholders— including publishers, suppliers, teaching schools and subject associations—to ensure that high quality support Stephen Timms: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer becomes available. when his Department expects to cease making new awards of tax credits. [147642] Free Schools: Yorkshire and the Humber

Sajid Javid: HM Revenue Customs are working in Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for conjunction with the Department for Work and Pensions Education how many schools have applied for free-school to plan the transition of tax credits to universal credit, status in (a) Hull and (b) Yorkshire in the last two including the most appropriate timing for phasing out years. [144532] new claims to tax credits. Elizabeth Truss: The Department has received (a) two applications to open a Free School from groups in Hull and (b) 65 applications from groups in the Yorkshire EDUCATION and Humberside region in the last two years.

Addison Lee GCE A-level Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Education (1) whether his Department allocates funding on how many occasions his private office has used to encourage students to take A-level sciences or private taxi hire with Addison Lee in the last 12 months. mathematics; [145538] [144399] (2) whether his Department allocates funding to Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 25 February 2013]: encourage students to take sciences, technology, engineering No Addison Lee taxis have been booked for use by the and mathematics, STEM subjects, at university level. Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. Friend [145555] the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), in the Elizabeth Truss: The Government is committed to last twelve months. increasing the number of pupils studying science and From 1 February 2012 to 31 January 2013 Addison mathematics subjects at A level and at university and we Lee taxis have been booked for the use of staff in the are taking action to support this. We are funding the Secretary of State’s ministerial office on six occasions, Further Mathematics Support Programme (FMSP) to at a total cost of £141.80. encourage more students to study Further Mathematics A level, the Cambridge University mathematics project Civil Servants: Codes of Practice to improve the teaching of mathematics at A level and 16-19 Maths Free Schools to provide a more challenging Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for curriculum for mathematics. The Government also funds Education pursuant to the answer of 26 February the Stimulating Physics Programme which supports schools 2013, Official Report, column 468W, on civil servants: to improve progression into physics at A level. These codes of practice, what specific instructions and programmes help prepare students for STEM subjects guidance he has issued on guarding against breaches of at university. the Civil Service Code regarding personal comments Wider Government reforms such as improving the and briefings against individuals; if he will publish any recruitment of top science and mathematics graduates such instructions and guidance; and if he will make a into teaching and strengthening the curriculum and statement. [146978] qualifications will also improve the teaching and take-up of these important subjects. Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 11 March 2013]: Staff are made aware of the Civil Service Code through inclusion in their contract, induction of new staff and through the online HR Handbook. There are very high HEALTH levels of awareness of the Civil Service Code in the Abortion: Lancashire Department, with 92% of staff in the last People Survey saying that they were aware of the Civil Service Code. Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 4 March 2013, Official Curriculum Report, column 852W, on abortion: Lancashire, what the ages were of the women who had terminations. Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for [147329] Education what support his Department plans to provide for schools and teachers in implementing the Anna Soubry: The information requested is set out in revised national curriculum. [146066] the following table. 241W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 242W

Abortions performed in Lancashire, by hospital and age group, 2011 about treatment should be based on patient’s ability to Age benefit, not their chronological age. 35 Guidance on the ban on age discrimination has been Total under 20 to 25 to 30 to and all 20 24 29 34 over available to the national health service since May 2010, as well as more recent policy briefing published in NHS September 2012. Compliance with the ban has been hospitals embedded in the NHS Constitution as well as in Blackpool 471548515professional standards and regulation. The NHS Operating Victoria Framework sets out that all NHS organisations must Hospital comply with the Equality Act 2010 and the Public Burnley 1,562 365 482 293 237 185 General Sector Equality Duty. The Equality and Human Rights Hospital Commission holds public bodies and their staff to Fairfield 1092637171415account in relation to the ban on discrimination across General all of the protected characteristics enshrined in the Hospital Equality Act 2010. Furness 1684649332119 General Hospital Antidepressants Ormskirk 341 88 105 72 29 47 and District Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for General Health how many prescriptions for antidepressants Hospital have been dispensed in the NHS in each of the last Preston Hall 2466453 Hospital 10 years. [147638] Rochdale 2154559483726 Infirmary Norman Lamb: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Royal 2 1—01— 1— 1— my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Blackburn Burns) gave the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Infirmary Ruane) on 11 June 2012, Official Report, columns 118-19W. Royal 2125564393123 Lancaster Infirmary Better Hospital Food Panel Royal 3477875 Preston Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Hospital if he will set up a new Better Hospital Food Panel. Southport 3 1—01— 1— 1— [147764] and Formby District General Dr Poulter: October 2012 saw the establishment of a Hospital Reference Group to oversee a project focused on Improving Westmorland 74 11 19 22 9 13 Hospital Food. The project has four strands—commitment, General standards, incentives and inspection. It has the support Hospital of Age UK, the Patients’ Association, the Royal College of Nursing, the British Dietetic Association, the British Independent Association for Parenteral and Enteral Nutrition, the clinics Hospital Caterers’ Association and the Soil Association. Marie 730 162 239 164 103 62 Stopes We have no plans to establish a separate Better Hospital International, Food Panel. Preston Cancer: Drugs Total 3,521 827 1,071 709 500 414 abortions performed in Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health clinics in when he will publish the new national arrangements Lancashire for the Cancer Drugs Fund from April 2013 to March 1 Suppressed value to protect the confidentiality of individuals. 2014; and how new cancer treatments will be appraised and recommended for funding. [147196] Age: Discrimination Norman Lamb: From April 2013, the NHS Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Commissioning Board will take on oversight of the Health what provisions are in place to ensure compliance Cancer Drugs Fund. The detailed arrangements that with the ban on age discrimination in clinical decision- will be put in place are a matter for the board as an making in the NHS; and if he will make a statement. independent body. We understand from the board that [147315] standard operating procedures for the Cancer Drugs Fund will be published soon. Norman Lamb: The Government is committed to The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence ensuring all patients are treated fairly, with dignity and will appraise health technologies and treatments, including respect, which is why from October last year we introduced cancer treatments, referred to it by the Secretary of a ban on unjustifiable age discrimination. Decisions State for Health. 243W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 244W

Chemotherapy of the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence guideline on fertility published in February 2013; Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health [147245] when the membership and terms of reference of the (2) what assessment his Department has made of the chemotherapy clinical reference group will be (a) recommendation of the National Institute for Health finalised and (b) made public. [147195] and Clinical Excellence guideline on fertility published Anna Soubry: We are advised by colleagues in the in February 2013 that up to three full cycles of IVF NHS Commissioning Board (NHS CB) that the terms treatment should be provided to eligible couples. of reference will not be finalised until the new chemotherapy [147246] group is formed. The group is expected to be formed by early April and the terms of reference will be published Anna Soubry: Infertility affects thousands of couples on the NHS CB website. and can have a devastating impact on their lives. The Department has therefore welcomed the National Institute Dietary Supplements for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) recommendations that in vitro fertilisation treatment Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for should be available at an earlier stage and for more Health (1) what steps he is taking to protect consumer couples that want to have a family. The Department choice in vitamin, mineral and other food supplements; expects local national health service organisations to and what guidance his Department has given on the consider this new guidance when making decisions about benefits of nutritional supplementation for vulnerable offering IVF to their communities. groups; [147368] The level of provision of health services, including (2) what recent representations have been (a) received fertility treatment, is a matter for clinical commissioning by his Department and (b) made by his Department to groups (CCGs) from 1 April 2013, taking account of the European Commission on the setting of maximum the needs of all their population. CCGs will be held to permitted levels of nutrients in food supplements under account by the NHS Commissioning Board, who have the provisions of Article 5 of the Food Supplements issued to CCGs a factsheet about commissioning fertility Directive. [147369] services. This sets out how CCGs should approach Anna Soubry: The Government’s position is that any commissioning fertility services and take account of the future decisions on vitamins, minerals and other food revised NICE fertility guideline. It can be found at: supplements need to be proportionate to protect consumer http://www.commissioningboard.nhs.uk/files/2013/02/fertility- choice and confidence in the safety and quality of facts.pdf products. The Department has funded Infertility Network UK, The Department has received representations from a the leading infertility patient support group, to produce number of parliamentarians and groups representing advice for NHS commissioners in England about the specialist health food sector, raising concerns regarding standardising eligibility criteria for fertility services. the setting of maximum permitted levels for vitamins This is signposted in the fertility factsheet. and minerals in food supplements. I wrote to the European Commissioner for Health and Consumer Policy, Tonio Borg, on 10 January 2013 and the Secretary of State for Health, my right hon. Heart Diseases: Children Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), met with the Commissioner on 17 January 2013, to emphasise that any future proposals for setting maximum Stuart Andrew: To ask the Secretary of State for permitted levels of vitamins and minerals in food Health (1) what assessment he has made of the effect of supplements should be based on science and safety, to the recent High Court ruling on the Safe and Sustainable allow for the highest safe maximum levels. Review of children’s heart surgery services on the Current Government advice is that a healthy, balanced Independent Reconfiguration Panel commissioned by diet will provide all the nutrients that most people need his Department on that Review; [147667] without having to take vitamin or mineral supplements. (2) what steps he plans to take with regards to the However, there are certain groups of the population for Safe and Sustainable Review of children’s heart services whom certain vitamin food supplements are recommended, in England following the recent High Court ruling that including women of child bearing age, pregnant women, that review was unlawful. [147668] infants, young children, older people and people who do not expose their skin to sunlight or are confined indoors. Anna Soubry: The Secretary of State for Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey Further details on Government recommendations on (Mr Hunt), is considering the implications of the Court’s nutritional supplementation are available on NHS Choices ruling for the Independent Reconfiguration Panel’s review website at: of the Safe and Sustainable programme and the Joint www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/1122.aspx Committee of Primary Care Trust’s (JCPCT) decision. Fertility The safe and sustainable review of children’s congenital heart services was a national health service review, Mr Barron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health independent of Government. It is for the JCPCT and, (1) what measures his Department is taking to increase from 1 April 2013, the NHS Commissioning Board to awareness among commissioners of the recommendations consider the Court’s ruling. 245W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 246W

Idiopathic Pulmonary Fibrosis NHS: Standards

Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what comparative assessment he has made of Health pursuant to his answer of 4 March 2013, what the treatment of idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis patients the scope and timeline is of the formal audit of practice; in the UK and other European countries; and if he will whether the proposed audit will consider practice as make a statement. [147313] well as policy; and whether trusts will be able to compare their practice against that of other trusts. [147559] Anna Soubry: The Department has made no assessment of comparative treatment for idiopathic pulmonary Dr Poulter: The organisation responsible for carrying fibrosis (IPF) in the United Kingdom or other European out the formal audit and the way its findings will be countries. considered and used is the Royal College of Obstetrics The National Institute for Health Research (NIHR) and Gynaecologists. Health Technology Assessment programme is funding I would encourage the hon. Member to write to them a systematic review of evidence on the benefits, harms directly in order to get the relevant information. and costs of treatments for IPF. The review began in May 2012 and is expected to report in mid-2014. In Palliative Care addition, the NIHR is funding two one-year biomedical research fellowships studying IPF. Sarah Newton: To ask the Secretary of State for In addition, the Department has asked the National Health (1) what opportunities there will be for the third Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence to produce sector to contribute to his Department’s end-of-life a clinical guideline on the diagnosis and management of choice review; [147256] IPF. The guideline is due to be published in June 2013. (2) when his Department’s end-of-life choice review Methadone will take place; and what format that review will take; [147257] Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for (3) whether he expects to set out a deadline for the Health how many people being prescribed methadone introduction of an end-of-life choice offer as a result of or other opioid substitutes had their prescription the end-of-life choice review. [147258] reduced in 2012-13. [147477] Norman Lamb: We are committed to moving towards Anna Soubry: I refer my hon. Friend to the written a national choice offer to support people’s preferences answer I gave him on 4 March 2013, Official Report, to be cared for and to die at home. This depends on column 862W. Data on whether doses of methadone or progress in implementing the National End of Life other opioid substitutes are rising, constant or reducing Care Strategy. We have said that we plan to review this are not held centrally. in 2013, and departmental officials are currently determining how best to undertake this. We published the fourth NHS: Public Consultation annual report on progress of the strategy in October 2012. Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Health who will be responsible for consulting patients Sir Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for on local NHS developments from 1 April 2013. Health what progress he has made in ensuring electronic [147374] palliative care co-ordination systems are available in every area of the UK. [147277] Dr Poulter: All existing national health service trusts will remain obliged, under section 242 of the NHS Act Norman Lamb: The Department, in conjunction with 2006, to involve patients and the public in the planning the National End of Life Care Programme, has been of service provision, the development and consideration supporting implementation of Electronic Palliative Care of proposals for changes in the way those services are Co-ordination Systems (EPaCCS) in a number of ways. provided, and decisions affecting the operation of those The roll out of EPaCCS is supported through the services. Quality, Innovation, Productivity and Prevention end The Health and Social Care Act 2012 will require of life care workstream. EPaCCS are identified in the clinical commissioning groups (CCGs) to involve patients workstream as a key tool to record the wishes and and public in all aspects of the commissioning of health preferences for care identified through care planning, services from 1 April 2013. CCGs have to set out how including advance care planning, discussions with patients they will involve people in their planning, and then and carers, and to support effective communication evidence the impact of that involvement in their annual between professionals thereby ensuring that these wishes reports. CCG boards will also have at least two lay and preferences are met. members sitting on the board, to secure strong patient An Information Standard, “End of life care and public voice in their decision making. co-ordination: core content” (ISB 1580), has also been The NHS Commissioning Board will shortly issue developed to underpin the implementation and use of statutory guidance for CCGs on how they can promote EPaCCS through defining a core data set that supports the involvement of patients in decisions about their care effective co-ordination of care. This can be found at: and treatment, and ensure patients and the public are www.isb.nhs.uk/library/standard/236 involved in the planning, development and delivery of To support this, national interoperability specifications health services. are being developed which information technology systems 247W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 248W suppliers can then adopt (and be accredited against) to Norman Lamb: The Government’s mandate to the provide a common code of connection for the sharing NHS Commissioning Board for April 2013 to March of palliative care information. 2015 includes an objective for the board to improve the A number of tools have also been developed to experience of care for people at the end of their lives. support wider adoption. These include the provision of This will be monitored through an indicator in the NHS an information sharing and networking portal for EPaCCS Outcomes Framework, based on the VOICES survey of on NHS Networks, and the dissemination of a case for bereaved relatives. Implementation of the End of Life change paper, setting out key information to support Care Strategy moves to the NHS Commissioning Board commissioners and others in developing business cases (NHS CB) supported by NHS Improving Quality. for the development of an EPaCCS system. More details The NHS CB will work with clinical commissioning are available at: groups to ensure that services match local needs and are www.endoflifecareforadults.nhs.uk/strategy/strategy/ of the highest possible standards, in line with the mandate. coordination-of-care/end-of-life-care-information-standard The National End of Life Care Programme has carried Psychiatry: Whyndyke Farm out a national survey to find out where EPaCCS have already been implemented, the approaches used and Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for future plans for implementation. Over 30 EPaCCS are Health when the psychiatric facility at Whyndyke Farm now implemented, in progress or in planning. is due to become operational; what the cost of building The National End of Life Care Programme will become the facility is expected to be; and what the cost has been part of NHS Improving Quality from 1 April 2013 and to date. [147261] is committed to carrying on this work during 2013-14. Ultimately though, any decision to develop an EPaCCS Anna Soubry: This is a matter for the Lancashire is for local determination. Care NHS Foundation Trust. We have written to the trust’s Chair, Steve Jones, Sir Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for informing him of your inquiry. He will reply shortly and Health what assessment he has given of the role which a copy of the letter will be placed in the Library. access to (a) 24/7 community nursing and (b) an electronic end-of-life care register might play in achieving the NHS Mandate’s objective that the NHS should be Radiotherapy seen as a world leader in end-of-life care. [147278] Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Norman Lamb: The Department has not made any (1) with reference to the 2011 National Radiotherapy formal assessment of the role 24 hour, seven day community Implementation Group Report on Stereotactic Body nursing and an electronic end-of-life care register might Radiotherapy, section 12.1, when the National Oversight play in achieving the NHS Mandate’s that the NHS Group was established; how many times this group has should be seen as a world leader in end-of-life care. met; on which cancers it has produced evidence-based However, increasing choice in the delivery of end-of-life treatment protocols; and what progress has been made care is a key aim of the Department’s End of Life Care establishing a common dataset; [147501] Strategy. Macmillan Cancer Support have done important (2) with reference to paragraph 2.7 of the 2011 National work in assessing the availability of 24 hour, seven day Radiotherapy Implementation Group Report guidelines community nursing as an essential part of existing on Stereotactic Body Radiotherapy (SBRT), whether choice in end of life care. clinical trials of SBRT are taking place for (a) prostate, The Department also believes that electronic palliative (b) head and neck, (c) kidney, (d) pancreatic, (e) liver care registers are an essential tool for helping to making and (f) spine cancer; [147551] patients’ care plans a reality. They are intended to (3) with reference to the 2011 National Radiotherapy provide instant electronic access to key information Implementation Group Report (NRIG) on Stereotactic about end of life care patients to all health professionals Body Radiotherapy, section 8.2, how many times the with a need to see it. They have the potential to improve NRIG subgroup has met; and what recommendations communication, co-ordination and planning and delivery it has made relating to the increased use of stereotactic of care, ensuring that a person’s wishes and expressed ablative radiotherapy for cancers of the prostate, head preferences for care are taken into account, for example and neck, kidney, pancreas, liver and spine. [147564] around resuscitation and preferences about where they would like to be cared for and to die. Anna Soubry: The National Radiotherapy Implementation Outcomes for the Electronic Palliative Care Group (NRIG) report, “Stereotactic Body Radiotherapy Co-ordination Systems early adopters are encouraging. (SBRT) Guidelines for Commissioner Providers and While sample sizes are still small, some sites report Clinicians in England 2011”, was produced by a short achieving Preferred Place of Death for 70 to 80% of life working group that was set up for the purpose of those on a register. producing the guidance. The report made a comprehensive assessment of the Sir Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for role and opportunities for SBRT also known as Stereotactic Health what assessment he has made of the role of (a) ablative Radiotherapy (SABR) in cancer treatment and care commissioning groups, (b) the NHS Commissioning set out a number of recommendations, including that a Board and (c) his Department in achieving the NHS National Oversight Group be created to take the lead Mandate’s objective that the NHS should be seen as a on establishing evidence-based prospective treatment world leader in end-of-life care. [147279] protocols for SBRT. 249W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 250W

In response to this recommendation, it was agreed for the Government to purchase the associated intellectual that the United Kingdom SABR Consortium, which property of affected tobacco companies in order to meets twice a year, would take on the national oversight remove branding from such packaging. [147660] role. The consortium has produced guidance that updates the lung, liver and prostate sections of the NRIG Anna Soubry: The Government have an open mind document. This guidance has been shared with all members on the issue of tobacco packaging. Following the of the consortium. The consortium has advised the “Consultation on standardised packaging of tobacco Department that it will make the guidance more widely product” any decisions to take further policy action on available in due course. tobacco packaging will be taken only after full consideration The UK SABR Consortium has advised that there is is given to the consultation responses, evidence and an agreed dateset being collected by the UK centres other relevant information. This will include consideration delivering SABR treatment. Currently, the data is held of the implications for the intellectual property of tobacco at the individual treating centres, though the consortium companies. is planning to pool and review that data in preparation for publication later in the year. There are ongoing clinical trials internationally examining the use of SBRT in a range of cancer sites. Details of CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT these are available on the ClinicalTrials.gov registry at Art Works: Scotland the following link: www.clinicaltrials.gov/ Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department’s National Institute for Health Research Culture, Media and Sport what discussions she has had (NIHR) is not currently funding any clinical trials of with the Scottish Government regarding the display SBRT for prostate, head and neck, kidney, pancreatic, and showcasing of the work of Scottish artists and liver, or spine cancer. The NIHR welcomes funding designers in UK embassies. [147331] applications for research into any aspect of human health, including SBRT. These applications are subject to peer review and judged in open competition, with Hugh Robertson: There have been no discussions with awards being made on the basis of the scientific quality the Scottish Government regarding the display and of the proposals made. showcasing of the work of Scottish artists and designers in UK embassies. The Government Art Collection displays Smoking: Bus Services works of art, mainly, by UK artists to promote art and culture in Government buildings around the world. Scottish artists are well represented and the collection Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for includes works by Sir Henry Raeburn, David Roberts, Health if he will make it his policy to include all John Duncan Fergusson, Eduardo Paolozzi, Elizabeth sheltered and unsheltered bus stops as a proscribed Blackadder, Douglas Gordon, Jim Lambie, Claire Barclay area for the smoking of tobacco; and if he will make a and Martin Boyce. statement. [147312] Direct Selling Anna Soubry: The Government do not intend to change the law to make any non-enclosed places, including bus stops without shelters, smoke-free. Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport how many fines for nuisance It is likely that some bus shelters come within the calls have been levied by Ofcom in the last 18 months; scope of the smoke-free workplaces and public places what the range and total value of such fines was; and legislation in England, which sets out definitions of what assessment she has made of the effectiveness what a substantially enclosed place is. Where shelters of the regulatory system relating to nuisance calls. are covered by the law, local authorities’ environmental [147076] health departments have responsibility for enforcing the legislation, including providing the appropriate signage Hugh Robertson: The Office of Communications (Ofcom) for the shelters. has issued monetary penalties to two companies, during Solanum this period for making silent and abandoned calls to consumers. This consisted of £750,000 and £60,000 for HomeServe and Npower respectively, and further action Mrs McGuire: To ask the Secretary of State for against other companies is also currently under Health what assessment has been made of the spread consideration. of solanum infection to the UK; and what the role of Ofcom and ICO regulate different types of nuisance nurses is in preventing any such spread. [147389] calls and the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member for Anna Soubry: We have made no such assessment. Wantage (Mr Vaizey), has met with them three times since July 2012 to improve the effectiveness of the Tobacco: Retail Trade current regulatory system. Consequently, significant improvements have been achieved in improving information Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health available to consumers through simpler website pages with reference to his Department’s consultation on and a new Ofcom Consumer Guide, as well as a focus standardised packaging of tobacco products, what on improved enforcement action for those found in assessment he has made of whether it would be necessary breach of the regulations. This has resulted in regulators 251W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 252W using their powers to issue large fines as well as publishing smaller than the UK. Forecasts are prepared for financial on ICC’s website, the names of the most complained years rather than calendar years and are based on the about companies. This can be found at: trend in growth of ‘over 75’ licences from year to year. http://www.ico.gov.uk/enforcement/action/calls.aspx The figures provided in the table have been rounded down to the nearest thousand. As with any forecasts, Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for these figures are subject to change as new information Culture, Media and Sport what steps she is taking to becomes available. co-ordinate action on nuisance calls by Ofcom and the Estimated ‘over 75’ licences Information Commissioner’s Office; and if she will Forecast volumes make a statement. [147078] 2013-14 3,937,000 Hugh Robertson: I have met with the Office of 2014-15 3,971,000 Communications (Ofcom) and the Information 2015-16 4,009,000 Commissioner’s Office (ICO) three times since last July 2016-17 4,044,000 and pressed for improved clarity and awareness about their respective roles. This has resulted in clearer information World War I: Anniversaries being made available on both websites about the different types of nuisance calls, as well as an improved understanding Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for of the enforcement process across both regulators. In Culture, Media and Sport in which events the Government addition, Ofcom and ICO work closely together through plans to participate to commemorate the centenary of a memorandum of understanding (MoU), sharing the First World War, by parliamentary constituency. information that may be helpful to them in their pursuit [147351] of companies that break the regulations. I will be meeting ICO and TPS again to see what further improvements Hugh Robertson: The Prime Minister has announced can be made. that there will be national commemorations to mark the first day of the war on 4 August 2014, the first day of Internet: Access the Battle of the Somme on 1 July 2016 and Armistice Day 2018. Additionally, there is a wide range of activity, Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for which is currently being planned, and will be announced Culture, Media and Sport what proportion of people in in due course. each local authority area live within two miles of free There will be commemorative activity to recognise public internet access. [147661] the importance of the engagements at Gallipoli, Jutland and Third Ypres (Passchendaele). Alongside these national Hugh Robertson: The Government do not have sufficient events, Government are encouraging commemorative information on the location of free public internet activity at a local level. A new Heritage Lottery Fund access to be able to make such an estimate, bearing in small grants programme, worth at least £6 million, will mind the wide range of different providers of free encourage young people to discover their local First public internet access. World War heritage. Mass Media CABINET OFFICE Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of Electoral Register 6 November 2012, Official Report, column 526W, on mass media, which newspaper and other media proprietors, Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet editors and senior executives she has met since 30 September Office what estimate he has made of the number of 2012. [146834] people eligible to vote but not registered to vote in each (a) nation of the UK and (b) region of England. Hugh Robertson: The Department regularly publishes [148104] details of ministerial meetings with outside interest groups including newspaper and other media proprietors, Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the editors and senior executives, full details of these can be responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have found at the following link: asked the authority to reply. http://www.transparency.culture.gov.uk/category/other/ Letter from Glen Watson, dated March 2013: meetings/ As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your question asking what estimate Television: Licensing has been made of the number of people eligible to vote but not registered to vote in each (a) nation of the UK and (b) region of Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for England (148104). Culture, Media and Sport what estimate she has made ONS does not have the data required to answer your question. of the number of pensioners in Kilmarnock and Loudoun Data are collected on the number of people who are registered to vote in the UK, but no data are collected on the number of people constituency who will claim free television licences in who are eligible to vote but who choose not to register. (a) 2014, (b) 2015 and (c) 2016. [147320] The ONS population estimates are of the resident population and will include some people who are not eligible to vote. Therefore Hugh Robertson: Pensioners over the age of 75 are the number of unregistered electors cannot be calculated based eligible to claim a free TV licence. The BBC does not on the difference between the population estimate and the number prepare forecasts for ‘over 75’ licences for any area of registered electors. 253W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 254W

Government Departments: Location the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many people (a) of pensionable age and (b) over 80 years there are in Brigg and Goole constituency. (147490) Diana Johnson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what assessment he has made of the economic Following is a file containing an extract from 2011 Census and regenerational benefits of moving Government Table QS103EW for all people aged 65 and over in Brigg and Departments to the regions; what assessment he has Goole for your reference. This is based on the 2011 Census made of the potential costs savings to the Government definition of pensionable age. I have also provided the total for of moving staff and offices out of London; what his ages 65 and over and for people aged over 80 (i.e. those 81 and over) in the following table: policy is on such actions; and if he will make a statement. [147396] 2011 Census—Brigg and Goole parliamentary constituency Number Miss Chloe Smith [holding answer 12 March 2013]: This Government believes that prior to May 2010 millions People aged 65 and over 16,550 of pounds of taxpayer’s money was wasted by under occupying freehold space within London (and indeed People aged over 80 3,373 beyond) while at the same time Departments were taking out expensive leases on vanity properties. The current This information is also available for download from the NOMIS spending controls on Government property, including website: the moratorium on lease breaks and expiries, will result www.nomisweb.co.uk in a reduction in both the cost and size of the estate. As at end March 2012, the moratorium has resulted in a 2011 census qs103ew—age by single year gross reduction in estate costs of over £312 million since Single year of age People May 2010 and is on track to deliver a further £125 million Age 65 1,014 by the end of the financial year 2012-13. Age 66 1,160 The location of posts in Departments is decided by Age 67 1,025 its business and operational requirements. Age 68 977 Age 69 881 Long Term Unemployed People Age 70 802 Age 71 867 Stephen Timms: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Age 72 792 Office how many of those currently classified as long-term Age 73 792 unemployed have never worked. [147494] Age 74 695 Age 75 693 Mr Hurd [holding answer 12 March 2013]: The Age 76 708 information requested falls within the responsibility of Age 77 620 the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Age 78 581 Age 79 576 Letter from Glen Watson, dated March 2013: Age 80 522 As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Age 81 472 have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking Age 82 461 how many of those currently classified as long-term unemployed have never worked. (147494) Age 83 417 Age 84 397 Estimates of unemployment are derived from the Labour Force Survey (LFS). For the period October to December 2012 it Age 85 352 was estimated that 871,000 people have been looking for work for Age 86 290 12 months or more, of which 145,000 people have never had a Age 87 294 paid job of any kind or a place on a government supported Age 88 237 training or employment programme. Estimates are not seasonally Age 89 208 adjusted. Age 90 187 As with any sample survey, estimates from the LFS are subject Age 91 134 to a margin of uncertainty. It is estimated that the true value is likely to lie between 115,000 and 176,000. Age 92 90 Age 93 68 Older People: Brigg Age 94 60 Age 95 57 Andrew Percy: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Age 96 41 Office how many people (a) of pensionable age and (b) Age 97 24 over 80 years there are in Brigg and Poole constituency. Age 98 27 [147490] Age 99 7 Age 100 and over 22 Mr Hurd [holding answer 12 March 2013]: The 16,550 information requested falls within the responsibility of Notes: the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority 1. Population: all usual residents. to reply. 2. Units: persons. 3. Area type: parliamentary constituencies 2010. Letter from Glen Watson, dated March 2013: 4. Area name: Brigg and Goole. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, Source: I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking ONS Crown Copyright Reserved (from Nomis on 11 March 2013) 255W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 256W

Population: Clwyd Letter from Glen Watson, dated March 2013: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet how many adults were recorded by the 2011 Census in each ward Office how many adults were recorded by the 2011 of Vale of Clwyd constituency. (148103) Census in each ward of Vale of Clwyd constituency. The following table contains an extract from 2011 Census [148103] Table QS103EW for all people aged 18 and over for the wards requested. Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the This information is also available for download from the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have NOMIS website asked the authority to reply. www.nomisweb.co.uk

2011 census qs103ew—age by single year Extract for wards within Vale of Clwyd parliamentary constituency Denbigh Denbigh Denbigh Upper/ Prestatyn Age Bodelwyddan Central Lower Henllan Dyserth Llandyrnog Central

Age 18 29 42 69 43 35 27 63 Age 19 19 41 45 44 11 22 35 Age 20 34 29 34 46 23 14 38 Age 21 24 25 53 45 20 26 39 Age 22 27 37 54 38 26 22 42 Age 23 30 26 36 40 24 13 37 Age 24 26 44 36 32 22 21 38 Age 25 27 28 54 35 13 11 31 Age 26 25 25 41 44 20 18 30 Age 27 26 38 31 42 28 15 21 Age 28 19 31 65 31 18 12 35 Age 29 21 29 37 29 22 14 27 Age 30 24 24 49 34 25 12 22 Age 31 36 22 50 45 16 25 28 Age 32 22 27 48 38 23 19 19 Age 33 31 25 36 31 22 17 32 Age 34 31 33 43 29 23 14 26 Age 35 34 21 62 40 25 17 23 Age 36 26 35 73 29 22 19 37 Age 37 33 29 55 29 23 23 31 Age 38 31 27 66 25 37 30 46 Age 39 32 32 55 52 39 27 39 Age 40 30 33 58 41 37 42 27 Age 41 34 26 66 35 23 25 34 Age 42 39 46 73 37 33 37 38 Age 43 34 34 76 44 25 37 50 Age 44 41 29 91 43 45 38 36 Age 45 24 33 76 53 43 32 54 Age 46 24 28 73 51 35 37 62 Age 47 30 26 68 48 48 38 48 Age 48 41 28 71 55 31 42 59 Age 49 30 24 79 47 36 35 54 Age 50 20 30 60 38 34 32 52 Age 51 16 33 54 36 26 34 52 Age 52 20 35 62 37 29 24 56 Age 53 23 23 61 37 41 40 47 Age 54 29 25 57 36 30 40 47 Age 55 28 19 60 44 30 34 47 Age 56 20 29 57 46 30 31 36 Age 57 28 24 75 40 31 24 51 Age 58 31 26 54 51 37 29 48 Age 59 21 19 59 36 31 26 47 Age 60 40 31 57 52 30 25 43 Age 61 26 28 62 38 33 37 42 Age 62 25 19 50 42 31 45 49 Age 63 34 28 60 44 39 30 60 Age 64 29 27 63 53 53 40 66 Age 65 27 16 51 25 22 37 35 257W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 258W

2011 census qs103ew—age by single year Extract for wards within Vale of Clwyd parliamentary constituency Denbigh Denbigh Denbigh Upper/ Prestatyn Age Bodelwyddan Central Lower Henllan Dyserth Llandyrnog Central

Age 66 21 20 56 39 40 39 55 Age 67 26 23 63 37 37 18 48 Age 68 15 22 48 33 28 28 52 Age 69 18 23 30 31 22 25 37 Age 70 19 16 44 33 24 20 33 Age 71 23 13 45 21 26 15 40 Age 72 13 15 37 16 20 20 44 Age 73 17 15 35 26 9 16 34 Age 74 16 19 48 21 14 20 39 Age 75 9 5 35 19 13 19 44 Age 76 12 9 34 21 20 17 27 Age 77 10 9 40 20 15 19 23 Age 78 14 11 26 20 11 17 33 Age 79 8 10 36 18 16 15 26 Age 80 6 3 29 14 9 14 33 Age 81 10 15 34 20 12 13 29 Age 82 14 6 15 17 13 9 35 Age 83 9 7 24 15 11 13 22 Age 84 9 5 19 17 8 10 18 Age 85 10 9 17 8 8 4 28 Age 86 6 9 26 13 5 5 21 Age 87 3 4 13 7 7 10 20 Age 88 2 4 12 6 6 6 16 Age 89 4 4 17 10 3 4 16 Age 90 5 4 10 0 3 2 12 Age 91 2 5 9 7 4 2 6 Age 92 1 2 8 2 1 3 9 Age 93 0 0 3 2 4 2 4 Age 94 1 2 2 1 1 0 6 Age 95 1 0 4 0 3 1 2 Age 96 0 0 3 2 1 0 1 Age 97 0 0 2 0 0 0 1 Age 98 0 1 2 1 0 0 3 Age 99 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Age 100 and 102 00 0 0 over Total aged 18 1,656 1,679 3,593 2,427 1,794 1,695 2,796 and over

Extract for wards within Vale of Clwyd parliamentary constituency Prestatyn Prestatyn Prestatyn Prestatyn Age East Meliden North South West Rhuddlan Rhyl East Rhyl South

Age 18 50 33 57 35 43 39 39 Age 19 43 31 51 36 38 52 37 Age 20 61 15 53 38 34 54 34 Age 21 48 20 60 35 32 44 46 Age 22 33 29 51 31 40 44 34 Age 23 40 29 50 33 44 43 38 Age 24 46 13 60 38 61 40 30 Age 25 45 17 52 35 30 41 38 Age 26 27 14 47 36 37 35 38 Age 27 37 15 65 44 35 44 36 Age 28 37 11 60 28 37 38 23 Age 29 40 18 53 37 29 29 36 Age 30 26 27 48 35 31 36 25 Age 31 41 16 65 45 36 47 24 Age 32 35 33 56 42 25 25 31 Age 33 46 17 56 28 28 16 34 Age 34 35 21 54 31 31 37 31 259W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 260W

Extract for wards within Vale of Clwyd parliamentary constituency Prestatyn Prestatyn Prestatyn Prestatyn Age East Meliden North South West Rhuddlan Rhyl East Rhyl South

Age 35 33 20 50 45 32 52 29 Age 36 42 26 52 45 50 32 38 Age 37 67 16 42 43 41 38 36 Age 38 44 17 65 42 51 48 42 Age 39 43 23 60 44 58 54 47 Age 40 60 29 64 24 51 51 40 Age 41 50 32 72 53 34 46 40 Age 42 45 31 86 35 53 50 37 Age 43 53 34 66 45 48 50 38 Age 44 58 36 75 43 52 51 40 Age 45 61 30 63 24 48 42 42 Age 46 61 25 79 56 39 58 45 Age 47 71 34 84 48 49 51 44 Age 48 53 32 78 39 70 48 50 Age 49 74 32 85 43 45 51 43 Age 50 58 28 67 46 42 46 48 Age 51 55 23 69 38 61 56 46 Age 52 44 26 63 47 45 36 47 Age 53 57 17 63 35 48 51 56 Age 54 48 26 66 44 41 43 47 Age 55 53 27 61 40 45 48 53 Age 56 45 22 71 31 35 48 51 Age 57 45 28 70 40 37 51 50 Age 58 58 25 68 44 47 65 47 Age 59 45 14 69 53 47 53 58 Age 60 47 22 69 47 44 50 60 Age 61 46 28 71 47 55 78 60 Age 62 46 30 109 60 67 72 65 Age 63 49 28 103 64 65 88 66 Age 64 59 28 97 69 77 77 68 Age 65 55 24 76 51 43 78 53 Age 66 42 22 81 60 64 88 56 Age 67 77 21 90 46 60 70 42 Age 68 44 22 89 53 53 73 60 Age 69 37 20 69 63 59 63 45 Age 70 56 12 96 47 54 63 45 Age 71 36 28 85 50 48 66 51 Age 72 26 27 89 49 52 51 42 Age 73 39 29 83 44 60 58 63 Age 74 32 17 72 55 38 46 56 Age 75 33 23 71 36 42 60 46 Age 76 32 22 76 32 41 46 53 Age 77 27 18 69 34 31 51 38 Age 78 27 23 63 30 32 33 29 Age 79 23 12 47 32 38 36 39 Age 80 33 21 47 39 38 41 24 Age 81 27 14 45 24 19 42 36 Age 82 25 4 39 26 33 34 26 Age 83 26 8 28 27 19 41 39 Age 84 34 9 30 23 21 34 27 Age 85 18 4 21 21 16 18 16 Age 86 13 8 23 11 11 23 17 Age 87 19 7 33 17 17 24 18 Age 88 15 3 24 6 14 24 23 Age 89 12 2 28 11 10 16 12 Age 90 10 4 16 9 7 8 12 Age 91 16 4 13 10 18 10 10 Age 92 7 2 12 4 4 8 3 Age936195 56 0 Age945260 11 1 261W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 262W

Extract for wards within Vale of Clwyd parliamentary constituency Prestatyn Prestatyn Prestatyn Prestatyn Age East Meliden North South West Rhuddlan Rhyl East Rhyl South

Age951563 24 1 Age963247 02 0 Age972152 05 3 Age980231 14 0 Age990013 31 1 Age 100 and 3000 01 0 over Total aged 18 3,121 1,571 4,624 2,872 3,042 3,477 2,994 and over

Extract for wards within Vale of Clwyd parliamentary constituency Rhyl South Rhyl South St Asaph Age East West Rhyl West St Asaph East West Trefnant Tremeirchion

Age18109937114321218 Age 19 86 91 74 13 16 10 19 Age 20 84 77 91 20 18 11 7 Age 21 65 84 71 14 20 24 23 Age22102677917111418 Age 23 85 70 82 16 28 12 11 Age 24 88 80 97 21 19 17 10 Age 25 94 62 70 12 11 16 23 Age 26 93 61 52 10 15 15 10 Age 27 85 60 58 14 20 11 14 Age 28 77 61 52 13 20 14 8 Age 29 91 62 48 18 15 17 13 Age 30 77 64 58 14 14 29 13 Age 31 76 80 61 20 19 20 18 Age 32 81 58 56 15 19 19 14 Age 33 71 59 43 17 13 16 14 Age 34 102 77 43 8 20 20 13 Age 35 84 54 40 17 17 17 21 Age 36 91 72 59 27 15 21 12 Age 37 91 71 43 18 21 15 15 Age 38 92 65 58 22 20 10 23 Age39109686518232227 Age40107764721232425 Age41128755521243216 Age42128816628312528 Age43101716319201631 Age44106756828253027 Age45114585217263132 Age46125506021293329 Age47127726316373626 Age 48 93 77 72 20 30 33 19 Age49104696324233815 Age50124616930262824 Age51103605923203625 Age 52 99 71 46 24 24 28 31 Age 53 89 49 60 26 15 18 16 Age 54 95 59 67 25 15 25 21 Age 55 87 43 55 27 15 26 17 Age56115655124142616 Age57114565521262222 Age 58 84 48 53 23 16 26 24 Age 59 91 50 58 17 18 35 25 Age60114664819262630 Age 61 95 52 54 29 29 45 46 Age 62 99 48 57 23 28 36 32 Age63107666932243934 Age64100684423233737 263W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 264W

Extract for wards within Vale of Clwyd parliamentary constituency Rhyl South Rhyl South St Asaph Age East West Rhyl West St Asaph East West Trefnant Tremeirchion

Age 65 78 48 32 24 13 24 24 Age 66 84 51 47 20 29 28 21 Age 67 62 41 34 24 25 28 21 Age 68 83 34 26 21 20 24 22 Age 69 74 39 33 20 18 33 20 Age 70 70 31 48 18 25 26 14 Age 71 63 30 32 19 15 20 13 Age 72 78 42 32 32 11 22 17 Age 73 59 29 20 23 20 25 27 Age 74 56 34 18 13 13 29 16 Age 75 57 34 19 18 15 15 10 Age 76 45 19 28 18 14 27 13 Age 77 45 27 14 10 14 23 7 Age 78 63 25 15 14 5 22 10 Age 79 50 31 9 17 14 17 9 Age 80 46 16 25 12 14 15 18 Age 81 39 18 18 6 7 12 7 Age 82 41 16 12 10 13 17 9 Age 83 28 17 12 11 4 16 6 Age 84 27 10 15 11 9 7 5 Age 85 25 14 9 12 7 11 6 Age 86 20 5 8 17 1 8 6 Age 87 22 5 9 9 11 7 5 Age8813139846 6 Age891975247 3 Age9085275184 Age911572765 1 Age92944544 1 Age93223315 0 Age94511224 1 Age95102103 1 Age96100031 1 Age97010120 0 Age98000201 0 Age99000022 1 Age 100 and 011001 0 over Total aged 18 5,870 3,759 3,369 1,356 1,343 1,626 1,317 and over Notes: Population: All usual residents Units: Persons Date: 2011 Source: Nomis—12 March 2013

Suicide Table 1 provides the number of deaths where suicide was the underlying cause, by five year age group and sex, in England, Wales and regions of England, for deaths registered between 2002 Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet and 2011 (the latest year available). A copy of Table 1 has been Office how many recorded suicides there have been in placed in the House of Commons library. each of the last 10 years, broken down by (a) age, (b) Figures presented in Table 1 are for deaths registered rather gender and (c) region. [147639] than deaths occurring in each calendar year. Due to the length of time it takes to hold an inquest, it can take months for a suicide to be registered. The latest statistical bulletin showed that the median Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the registration delay for suicides was 158 days in England and Wales responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have in 2011. More information on registration delays for other causes asked the authority to reply. can be found on the ONS website: www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/user-guidance/health-and- Letter from Glen Watson, dated March 2013: life-events/impact-of-registration-delays-on-mortality- As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I statistics/index.html have been asked to reply to your recent question asking how many The number of suicides and age-standardised suicide rates for recorded suicides there have been in each of the last 10 years, the United Kingdom, England and Wales, and regions of England broken down by (a) age, (b) gender and (c) region. (147639) are published annually on the ONS website: 265W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 266W

www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/all- Jeremy Wright: In 2011, the number of offences releases.html?definition=tcm%3A77-29400 committed by those on bail was at its lowest level for the Due to the size of the table, it will be stored in Library of the last five years. House. Table 1 shows the highest number of offences committed by an individual whilst remanded on bail in each year from 2000 (the earliest available) to June 2012. Table 1: Highest number of offences committed by an individual whilst JUSTICE remanded on bail1 in each year from 2000 to June 20122, England and Wales3 Alcoholic Drinks: Designated Public Places Orders Highest number of offences by an offender

Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2000 66 how many people were (a) prosecuted, (b) convicted 2001 40 and (c) received the maximum fine available for the 2002 34 offence of not obeying an instruction to stop drinking 2003 63 in a designated public place in each of the last three 2004 53 years. [146983] 2005 60 2006 34 Jeremy Wright: The number of defendants proceeded 2007 59 against at magistrates courts and offenders found guilty 2008 125 and sentenced to a fine at all courts for not obeying 2009 56 an instruction to stop drinking in a designated public 2010 45 place, in England and Wales, from 2009 to 2011, can be 2011 35 viewed in the following table. There were no incidences 20122 29 of an offender being sentenced to the maximum fine of 1 Includes people remanded on both police and court bail. £500. 2 2012 only includes January to June in line with published information. 3 Offences are based on data held about convictions and cautions. Court proceedings data for 2012 are planned for Source: publication in May 2013. Ministry of Justice Defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts, and offenders The numbers presented above represent a count of found guilty and sentenced to a fine at all courts for not obeying an the total number of offences committed whilst on bail instruction to stop drinking in a designated public place1, England and by these individuals in each year. Due to the way the Wales, 2009-112, 3 information are stored, it is not possible to identify the Outcome 2009 2010 2011 highest number of offences committed during an individual Proceeded against 179 122 138 bail occasion. Found guilty 135 102 110 Table 2 shows the number of people committing Sentenced to a fine 93 63 64 offences whilst on bail in each year from 2007 to June 2012, Of which: by the number of these offences that they committed. Maximum fine issued 0 0 0 Table 2: Number of people committing offences whilst on bail1 in each 2 1 An offence under Section 12 of the Criminal Justice and Police Act year from 2007 to June 2012 , by the number of offences committed, 3 2001, which came into force on 1 September 2001. England and Wales 2 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons Number of offences3 for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they 1 2-5 6-10 Over 10 were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is 2007 39,274 32,886 4,285 703 imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more 2008 39,881 31,830 3,728 615 offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2009 40,555 30,470 3,433 579 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate 2010 40,100 29,527 3,392 637 and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have 2011 36,536 27,735 3,330 589 been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by 20122 20,332 13,425 1,175 167 the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken 1 to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are Includes people remanded on both police and court bail. 2 2012 only includes January to June in line with published information. taken into account when those data are used. 3 Source: Offences are based on data held about convictions and cautions. Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice. Source: Ministry of Justice Bail As above, these figures are based on counts of the total number of offences committed by individuals whilst on bail in each year. Due to the way the information Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice are stored, it is not possible to group offenders by the (1) what the highest number of offences committed by number of offences committed during individual bail an individual remanded on bail was in each year since occasions. 1997; [139639] These figures have been drawn from the police’s (2) how many people remanded on bail went on to administrative IT system, the police national computer, commit (a) no offences, (b) one offence, (c) between which, as with any large scale recording system, is two and five offences, (d) between six and 10 offences subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. and (e) more than 10 offences in each of the last three The figures are provisional and subject to change as years. [139642] more information is recorded by the police. 267W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 268W

In particular the recording of information on whether more efficient, so that we can extend rehabilitative or not the offence was committed while the offender provision to offenders released from short custodial was on bail is known to be incomplete. This is because sentences of less than 12 months. the police have available to them a number of ways of We need to achieve this in a way that is affordable recording the bail status of an offender of which the within the context of the Ministry of Justice’s commitment ‘offence committed on bail’ field on the PNC is one. For to deliver annual savings of over £2 billion by 2014-15. operational purposes police forces make differing use of these various sources and as a result figures derived We have consulted on how best to structure the purely from the PNC do not provide a complete picture system so it is organised in the most efficient manner of these offences, and therefore changes over time. and we are looking carefully at responses to the consultation to ensure we get the details right. The response to the consultation will be published in due course. Legal Aid Scheme Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what steps he is taking to ensure that every prisoner (1) what assessment he has made of which areas of the under 24 years old is assigned an individual mentor on UK will see the largest decrease in legal aid funded completion of their sentence. [147356] face-to-face advice services between 2012-13 and 2013-14; [143265] Jeremy Wright: We are committed to opening up (2) which areas of the country he anticipates will rehabilitative services to a range of new providers, who have no access to legal aid funded face-to-face advice will be paid by results to help offenders turn their lives services from April 2013-14. [143608] around. As a part of this we expect to see more use of innovative approaches, such as mentoring, and for offenders Jeremy Wright: We have not made an assessment of to receive targeted support to tackle the root causes of which parts of the country will see the largest decrease offending. in legal aid advice services in the next year. However, we The Ministry of Justice’s consultation on plans for anticipate that no area in England and Wales will be reforming the way in which offenders are rehabilitated without access to legal aid funded face to face advice in the community closed on 22 February. We will respond services from April 2013. to the consultation and bring forward detailed plans in Justice is a devolved matter in Northern Ireland and due course. Scotland. Personal Injury: Compensation Offences Against Children Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice for Justice what representations were (a) sought and how many child sex offenders were released from prisons (b) received from representatives of (i) the insurance in England and Wales in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and industry and (ii) the legal services industry in formulating (c) 2012. [146159] the proposals in the Consultation on arrangements concerning whiplash injuries in England and Wales. Jeremy Wright: From the data held centrally, it is not [146936] possible to separately identify those offenders convicted of sexual offences against children, because the prisoner Mrs Grant: In formulating the proposals to be included offence details held centrally do not include information in the ’reducing the number and cost of whiplash claims’ on the age of the victim. Such offenders are included consultation document, no organisations were asked to with other sexual offences. make submissions. However, Ministry of Justice Officials did hold specific discussion meetings with representatives Offenders: Rehabilitation from a number of key stakeholder groups including; Association of British Insurers Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Forum of Insurance Lawyers what the estimated cost is of the provision of supervision Motor Accident Solicitors Society in the community for persons sentenced to less than Association of Personal Injury Lawyers 12 months in custody and subsequently released into Consumer Justice Alliance community supervision. [147030] Access to Justice Action Group Jeremy Wright: There are currently few rehabilitative Association of Medical Reporting Organisations services that are provided through the criminal justice British Orthopaedic Association system to offenders released from custodial sentences of Royal Society of General Practitioners less than 12 months. Officials also discussed the proposals with the Law On 22 February the Ministry of Justice’s consultation Society as part of a meeting on the wider civil justice on plans for reforming the way in which offenders are reform agenda. rehabilitated in the community closed. Our proposed reforms will help reduce reoffending Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State by opening up rehabilitation services to a more diverse for Justice what assessment he has made of Professor market, using payment by results to encourage providers Paul Fenn’s report Evaluating the low value Road to focus on outcomes, and by making the whole system Traffic Accident process. [146937] 269W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 270W

Mrs Grant: Professor Fenn’s report was considered are excluded from the answer above. Information on in the development of the Government’s decisions on offenders’ residences is provided by offenders on reception the extension of the Road Traffic Accident Personal into prison and recorded on a central IT system. Addresses Injury scheme and the associated fixed recoverable costs. can include a home address, an address to which offenders These were published on 27 February 2013 and have intend to return on discharge or next of kin address and been placed in the Libraries of both Houses. these figures are provided in the answer above. Prisoners on Remand Comparable data on what proportion of prisoners resident in Dartford constituency are (a) women and (b) men in 2003 and 2008 is not available as the Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice National Offender Management Service did not record how many prisoners on remand in (a) HM Prison constituency level data until 2010. Holloway and (b) HM Prison Pentonville are (i) UK nationals, (ii) EEA nationals excluding the UK and (iii) As at 31 December 2012 there were no female offenders nationals from countries outside the EEA. [147531] aged between 15 and 21 with a recorded residential address in Dartford constituency held in young offender Jeremy Wright: The following table provides information institutions. Data on those held in secure training centres on the remand prisoner population as at 31 December and secure children’s homes is not held centrally and 2012 in (a) HMP Holloway and (b) HMP Pentonville could be obtained only at disproportionate cost by a and the numbers that are (i) UK nationals, (ii) EEA manual check of records. nationals excluding the UK and (iii) nationals from Table 2 shows the number of prisoners serving a countries outside the EEA. determinate sentence of four years or more, those serving an indeterminate sentence for public protection, those Non- Nationality serving as life sentence and those recalled to custody UK EEA EEA not Establishment nationals nationals nationals recorded All who had an original sentence of four years or more with a recorded residential address in Dartford constituency Holloway 71 14 16 2 103 as at 31 December 2012. Pentonville 274 65 90 20 449 Table 3 shows the numbers of prisoners with a recorded All 345 79 106 22 552 residential address in Dartford constituency as at These figures have been drawn from administrative 31 December 2012 who are (a) under 18 years old, IT systems which, as with any large scale recording (b) between 18 and 21 years old, (c) between 45 and system, are subject to possible errors with data entry 60 years old and (d) over 60 years old. and processing. These figures have been drawn from administrative IT systems, which, as with any large-scale recording Prisoners: Dartford system, are subject to possible error with data entry and processing. Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Table 1: Number of prisoners and their location with a recorded Justice (1) how many people resident in Dartford residential address in the Dartford constituency area as at 31 constituency are currently being held in (a) prisons and December 2012 (b) young offender institutions; and in which establishment Predominant such people are held; [145870] Function Prison Female Male Total

(2) what proportion of prisoners resident in Dartford Adult Bedford <5 <5 constituency are (a) women and (b) men; and what comparable figures were in (i) 2008 and (ii) 2003; Belmarsh 8 8 [145871] Birmingham <5 <5 (3) how many female young offenders resident in Blantyre <5 <5 Dartford constituency are currently held in prisons or House Brixton <5 <5 secure accommodation; [145872] (4) how many prisoners originally resident in Dartford Bullingdon <5 <5 are currently serving sentences of more than four years; Rye Hill <5 <5 [146438] Standford 55 (5) how many prisoners resident in Dartford constituency Hill are (a) under 18 years old, (b) between 18 and 21 years Swaleside 5 5 old, (c) between 45 and 60 years old and (d) over 60 Thameside <5 <5 years old. [145873] Wandsworth <5 <5 Wayland <5 <5 Jeremy Wright: Table 1 shows the number of male Wormwood <5 <5 and female prisoners held in a prison, young offender Scrubs institution and female prison and with a recorded residential Elmley 19 19 address in Dartford constituency area as at 31 December 2012. Ford <5 <5 Grendon/ <5 <5 If no address is given, an offender’s committal court Spring Hill address is used as a proxy for the area in which they are High <5 <5 resident. These figures are also included in the answer. Down No address has been recorded and no court information High point <5 <5 is available for around 3% of all offenders, these figures 271W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 272W

Table 1: Number of prisoners and their location with a recorded claims limit under the Legal Aid, Sentencing and residential address in the Dartford constituency area as at 31 Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 on claimants who December 2012 lack the funds to access legal services in cases where Predominant liability has been accepted by a third party; [146935] Function Prison Female Male Total (2) what representations he has received from parties Isle of <5 <5 concerned that the proposed increase in the small Wight claims limit under the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Kingston <5 <5 Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 will restrict access Maidstone <5 <5 to justice for the vulnerable; and what steps his The <5 <5 Department has taken to ensure that such concerns are Mount not realised. [146938]

Young Cookham <5 <5 Mrs Grant: The reforms to be implemented in Part 2 Offender Wood of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Institution Act 2012 on 1 April 2013 do not relate to the level of the Rochester 5 5 small claims track threshold. However, following the publication of the ’Solving Disputes in the County Female Downview <5 — <5 Court’ consultation response in March 2012, the Ministry Prisons of Justice announced the small claims track financial threshold for general claims would be increased to Table 2: Number of prisoners with a recorded residential address in the £10,000 on 1 April 2013. A revised impact assessment Dartford constituency area serving a sentence of four years or more as was published alongside the consultation response and at 31 December 2012 can be downloaded from the Ministry of Justice website Sentence Status Total at: Determinate sentence of four years 17 https://consult.justice.gov.uk/digital-communications/ or more county_court_disputes Indeterminate Sentence for Pubic <5 In addition, the Government has just completed a Protection consultation on measures to reduce the number and Life Sentence <5 cost of whiplash claims. A proposal to amend the small Recall (Original sentence of four <5 claims threshold for damages for personal injury claims years or more) was included in this document, and an impact assessment—including an assessment of the impact of Table 3: Number of prisoners with a recorded residential address in the the proposals on the Road Traffic Accident Pre-action Dartford constituency area as at 31 December 2012 Protocol for claims where liability is accepted—was Age Breakdown Female Male also published. Both documents can be downloaded 15 to 17 — <5 from the Ministry of Justice website at: 18 to 21 — 11 https://consult.justice.gov.uk/digital-communications/ 22 to 44 <5 44 reducing-number-cost-whiplash 45 to 60 — 17 No decisions will be taken on whether to amend the Over 60 — <5 small claims threshold in personal injury claims until all Note: responses to the consultation have been considered. A To prevent the possible identification of prisoners, where there are revised impact assessment will consider the impact of fewer than five in a category, this is shown as less than five, in line with any changes on affected parties and will be published the principles of the Data Protection Act. alongside the Government response. Probation Supervision Orders Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how much was spent in each probation trust Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for area on one-to-one work with offenders originally sentenced Justice (1) what the estimated cost to the public purse for (a) murder, (b) rape, (c) violence against a person, is of (a) a supervision order without a punishment (d) burglary, (e) sexual offences against a minor, (f) element and (b) a supervision order with a punishment theft and (g) criminal damage to property and who element; [147390] received probation of (i) 0-6 months, (ii) 7-12 months, (2) what estimate he has made of trends in the proportion (iii) 13-18 months, (iv) 19-24 months and (v) 25-36 of punitive and rehabilitative measures used by probation months in (A) 2009-10 and (B) 2010-11. [144530] trusts over the next five years. [147391]

Jeremy Wright: Central accounting systems do not Jeremy Wright: Provisions in schedule 15 to the Crime record expenditure in the format requested. It would and Courts Bill will require courts to include a punitive not be possible to provide the requested analysis without element as part of a community order. The Government incurring disproportionate cost. published a full impact assessment for this and other policies taken forward as a result of the Punishment Small Claims and Reform consultation on community sentencing. The impact assessment can be found at: Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State https://consult.justice.gov.uk/digital-communications/ for Justice (1) what assessment his Department has effective-community-services-1/results/community-sentences- made of the effect of the proposed increase in the small response-ia.pdf 273W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 274W

Young Offenders Number in employment willing to work more hours1 (thousand) Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what support a young offender receives when their case North West 320 is transferred from youth offending to adult probation Cumbria 21 1 teams. [146829] Workers are defined as underemployed if willing to work more hours, either by working in an additional job, working more hours in their current job, or switching to a replacement job. They must also be Jeremy Wright: When the case of a young person is available to start working longer hours within two weeks, and their transferred from a youth offending team (YOT) to a current weekly hours must be below 40 hours if they are aged between probation trust, at or around the age of 18, the probation 16 and 18 and below 48 hours if they are aged over 18. trust is expected to provide the level and type of support Notes: 1. Estimates are based on small sample sizes and should be treated that is necessary to avoid future reoffending and to with caution. promote rehabilitation. At the same time, the probation 2. Estimates have been rounded to the nearest thousand. trust must ensure that the young person meets the 3. Cumbria is made up of the following local authorities; Carlisle, demands of the court order. Allerdale, South Lakeland, Eden, Barrow in Furness and Copeland 4. Sample sizes are too small to provide a reliable estimate for Barrow Depending on the needs of the young offender concerned, and Furness constituency for this period. this could include support and advice on employment Source: and training, housing, thinking skills and substance ONS, Annual Population Survey dataset, October 2011 to September misuse. Such support will be provided either direct by 2012 the probation trust or by other agencies. Housing Benefit: Social Rented Housing

Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what guidance he has issued to local WORK AND PENSIONS authorities and housing associations about the classification of a bedroom under the under-occupation penalty to Employment: Bradford housing benefit; and what assessment he has made of the safe minimum size of a bedroom to be shared by Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and two siblings. [147675] Pensions what steps his Department is taking to increase employment opportunities in Bradford. [146643] Steve Webb: Together with the Department for Communities and Local Government we have worked Mr Hoban: I refer to the reply given by the Minister with the Chartered Institute of Housing who have of State for Business and Enterprise, my right hon. produced an online guide for social sector landlords Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon), on ″Making it Fit—a guide to preparing for the social size 11 March 2013, Official Report, column 118W. criteria″. This was launched in June last year and is designed to help landlords to develop a strategic and Employment: North West operational approach to the size criteria, tailored to their local area. John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for Separate guidance has not been issued on the size of Work and Pensions what recent assessment he has made rooms or their suitability for use as a bedroom. Rent of under-employment in (a) Barrow and Furness levels generally reflect the number of bedrooms in the constituency, (b) Cumbria and (c) the North West. property and may take into account their size, but it is [147295] for tenants to decide at the point of accepting the tenancy whether the rooms are of a suitable size for Mr Hoban: The number of people in the specified their needs. areas who want to work more hours either in their The size criteria rules take account of the number of current job, or by taking a new or additional job, are bedrooms as designated by the landlord and compare shown in the table. This group represents a minority of this with the composition of the household in order to the work force, with nine out of ten people saying they establish whether or not to apply a reduction due to do not want additional hours. under-occupation. The figures include people who say they would accept longer hours in their current job if the opportunity Jobcentre Plus arose, in addition to those who are actively seeking extra hours. They also include people already working Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for full-time (up to 47 hours per week) who still express a Work and Pensions what steps he has taken to provide preference for more hours. support in jobcentres to people lacking in digital skills. The UK has a flexible labour market in which 6 [147663] million to 7 million people start a new job or change jobs every year and the range of new jobs coming up is Mr Hoban: If a claimant does not have access to the very wide. This dynamism and diversity ensures most internet at home, jobcentre staff are able to advise of people can find a job that suits their particular needs. A alternative access points in the community.Most jobcentres job that does not initially provide as many hours as a also have the facility to offer internet access on site person wants can provide valuable skills and experience where necessary. and be a stepping stone to more hours when their Our new jobsearch site, Univeral Jobmatch, has employer is able to offer them, or by using the experience modernised the support for jobseekers and employers. gained to move to a different job. Should a jobseeker lack the necessary skills to navigate 275W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 276W this service, there are staff in every Jobcentre who are reforming the welfare system to improve work and able to coach them in registration and best use of the saving incentives, and provide more effective support to system. those out of work. It is also why we abolished the As part of our support to jobseekers, we will also default retirement age, meaning most people can now refer to specific programmes to help people to use the retire when the time is right for them, enabling people to internet. Where there are gaps in external provision, work and save for longer. Our plans for the single-tier jobcentres have the facility to contract directly with pension, and for automatic enrolment into workplace organisations to provide appropriate support and training. pensions, will provide clarity and confidence to better support saving for retirement and make the default Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for decision a decision to save. Work and Pensions how much his Department is The indicator also demonstrates the need to tackle spending on equipment that will be installed in non-financial issues which strongly affect people’s experience jobcentres to assist digitally illiterate benefit claimants of poverty and deprivation. For older people, many of in each of the next five years. [147664] these relate to isolation, and state of health. I most recently discussed this at the 6 March 2013 meeting of Mr Hoban: Budgets have yet to be agreed for the next the UK Advisory Forum on Ageing, focusing on how five years. The decision to install equipment is a local Government and others can work together to learn one depending on requirements. However, jobcentres more about the issues at local level, and what needs to will continue to provide internet access and support for be done to tackle them. Government and others are digitally illiterate benefit claimants. already working together in this respect in the context of the Age Action Alliance, an independent network of Means-tested Benefits organisations focused on practical means to improve older people’s lives whose membership has just reached Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for 315—a testimony to its value not only to central and Work and Pensions when new applicants will cease to local Government, but also to commercial providers, be awarded (a) means tested jobseeker’s allowance, delivery organisations, representative groups, and older (b) means tested employment and support allowance people themselves. and (c) tax credits. [147666] On a bilateral basis, in recent months I have had several meetings with charities and representative Mr Hoban: Claims to universal credit start in our organisations such as Age UK, and with older people Pathfinder from 29 April 2013. This will focus on new themselves, including a visit to Abbeyfield care home. single, unemployed people, with or without rented housing As plans for the single tier pension gather pace this year costs. Universal credit will replace means tested jobseeker’s I will be engaging further with organisations with an allowance for this group of claimants. interest in the welfare of older people. A progressive national roll-out to other new claimants will begin in October 2013. The final date on which all Universal Credit new applicants will claim universal credit instead of existing benefits will be announced in due course. John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many consultants were Pensioners: Poverty employed as part of the universal credit programme in each of the last three years; and what the total cost was John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for of those consultants in each year. [147292] Work and Pensions (1) pursuant to the answer of 12 February 2013, Official Report, column 643W, on Mr Hoban: The total cost of the consultants employed pensioners, what steps he is taking in response to the on the universal credit programme in each of the last data generated by the material deprivation indicator; three years is as follows: £5.6 million in 2011-12 and [144971] £2.2 million in 2012-13. (2) what recent discussions he has had with charities There was no consultancy expenditure in 2010-11 representing elderly people on the income and non- recorded against the universal credit programme. income-based aspects of pensioner poverty. [144972] Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Steve Webb: As my answer on 12 February 2013, Work and Pensions how many people working on the Official Report, column 643W,sets out, pensioner well-being universal credit programme are employees of (a) Accenture, is a priority for the Government. The triple lock ensures (b) BT, (c) Capgemini, (d) Hewlett Packard and (e) that the basic state pension will go up by the highest of IBM. [147640] earnings, prices or 2.5% and we have protected key benefits for older people including free eye tests, free Mr Hoban: The Department contracts for services prescription charges, free off-peak bus travel, free television from its suppliers and the number of staff working on licences for those aged over 75 and winter fuel payments. the programme at any one time is a matter for them to The material deprivation indicator provides valuable determine. It will vary considerably over the life of the insights into older people’s experience of poverty, arising programme. for example from social isolation and ill health. It complements the income measure and underlines the Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for need to enable people to have opportunities to work, Work and Pensions how much his Department has save and provide for themselves and their families up to spent on developing the IT system for universal credit and beyond retirement. That is why the Coalition is to date. [147641] 277W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 278W

Mr Hoban: I refer the right hon. Member to the reply Mr Hoban: A key aspect of our implementation of I gave to his previous question number 147121, on Professor Harrington’s recommendations has been to 11 March 2013, Official Report, column 145W. empower decision makers and place them at the heart of the work capability assessment (WCA). As part of Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for the decision-making process decision makers must consider Work and Pensions when he expects applicants without all of the evidence available to them, including any bank accounts to be able to receive universal credit. additional medical evidence provided. [147643] Following the recommendations from Professor Harrington’s Year 2 review, a regular audit of decision Mr Hoban: Universal credit claimants who do not maker performance is now conducted via the Quality have access to a bank account will be able to receive Assurance Framework, where checks are made on a payments from the start of the pathfinder from April sample of ESA and IB reassessment decisions. We also 2013. Claimants will need access to a bank account or conduct twice yearly calibration exercises at a national Post Office card account to make an initial claim during level to ensure that there is a consistent application of the UC Pathfinder, but we will also have the facility to the Quality Assurance Framework. make payment by simple payment where necessary. In his third independent review of the WCA Professor Through the personal budgeting support process we Harrington made a recommendation that: will also be taking steps to enable the majority of “Decision Makers should actively consider the need to seek claimants to use a bank account to manage their UC further documentary evidence in every claimant’s case. The final payments. decision must be justified where this is not sought.” The Government provisionally accepted this Work Capability Assessment recommendation, and are currently working to understand how best to implement it in the best and most cost-effective Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Work fashion. and Pensions how much his Department has spent on the appeals process for work capability assessments in each year since 2009. [146801] INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Mr Hoban: The following table shows the cost of appeals related to work capability assessment in respect Private Sector: Development of staff costs for employment support allowance and incapacity benefit reassessment appeals. 8. Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for From April 2012, the Department recorded employment International Development what steps she is taking to support allowance work capability assessments separately. work more closely with the private sector for development The data provided prior to April 2012 are the full aims. [147434] employment support allowance appeal cost of work capability assessments and non-work capability assessments. Justine Greening: I want to see an end to aid dependency through jobs. On Monday I announced a step-change Employment support allowance was rolled out within in how DFID works to drive economic development in Jobcentre Plus in 2009-10 so the full year costs are not developing countries. We will work with the Confederation comparable year on year. of British Industry to see business and UK companies joining the development push with DFID. £ million Financial year April Economic Development 2012 to January 9. Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2013 for International Development what strategy her ESA appeals 6.4 12.1 15.4 14.1 Department has for economic development; and if she Of which: will make a statement. [147435] ESA n/a n/a n/a 12.2 appeals— Justine Greening: On Monday I announced that my WCA Department will work with the Confederation of British IB (IS) n/a n/a 3.1 9.9 Industry to create a joint strategy for business to join reassessment the development effort. appeals My Department will also work in developing countries Total WCA 22.1 to remove trade barriers and unlock growth and jobs Source: through supporting particularly small companies to Jobcentre Plus ABM Models 2009-10 and 2010-11 and DWP Ops grow successfully. ABM Models 2011-12 and 2012-13.

Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for UN Aid Target Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of the effect of the implementation of Professor Harrington’s 10. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for recommendations on the work capability assessment on International Development what recent progress has the flexibility of decision-makers in considering additional been made on the Government commitment to meet medical evidence. [147015] the UN aid target of 0.7 per cent of GDP. [147436] 279W Written Answers13 MARCH 2013 Written Answers 280W

Mr Duncan: The Government will, as promised, meet Afghanistan its commitment to spend 0.7% of gross national income on Official Development Assistance from this year. Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what progress has been G8 made in meeting her Department’s target for female children attending primary school in Afghanistan. 11. Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for [147211] International Development how her Department is Mr Duncan: DFID has made a large investment in supporting the UK’s presidency of the G8. [147437] improving education provision in Afghanistan for all Justine Greening: The Prime Minister has said he children over the last decade. UK development funding wants to use the G8 to tackle the causes, not just the through the Afghanistan Reconstruction Trust Fund symptoms, of poverty, including work on tax, trade and has contributed to 5.9 million children attending school transparency. My Department is working across in 2011-12. This includes 2.3 million girls, compared Government and leading key elements of discussions with virtually none under the Taliban. We have therefore that are relevant for developing countries. exceeded our Operational Plan target of contributing to 2.1 million girls attending primary school by 2013-14 and will be working with the Afghan Ministry of Education Tax Avoidance: Developing Countries as they develop new targets.

12. Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what discussions she has International Development what steps she is taking to had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on tackling ensure that the Afghan government keeps schools and tax avoidance in developing countries. [147438] hospitals open after Coalition forces leave that country. [147215] Lynne Featherstone: The Secretary of State for International Development, the right hon. Member for Mr Duncan: Since 2002 the UK has contributed over Putney (Justine Greening), regularly has meetings with £685 million to the Afghanistan Reconstruction Trust ministerial colleagues, including the Chancellor of the Fund (ARTF), to support the delivery of basic services Exchequer. In these meetings, they discuss various issues across Afghanistan, including health care and education. of common interest, including tax avoidance. UK support to the ARTF will continue after the security transition. Better Governance In the Tokyo Mutual Accountability Framework (TMAF) agreed in July 2012, the Afghan Government 14. Neil Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for committed to adequately resource health care and education International Development what steps her Department to meet Millennium Development Goal targets. The is taking to promote better governance in fragile and UK, as co-chair of the first ministerial review of the conflict-affected states. [147440] TMAF in 2014, will play a leading role in ensuring this commitment is met. Mr Duncan: The UK will direct 30% of UK Official Rwanda Development Assistance (ODA) to fragile and conflict affected states by 2014-15. Improving governance is Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for central to all DFID programmes, and to tackling the International Development in what circumstances she drivers of instability, in fragile and conflict affected would restore aid to Rwanda. [147328] countries. Justine Greening: I refer the hon. Member to my Water written ministerial statement of 1 March 2013, Official Report, 47-48WS. 15. Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State Telephone Services for International Development how she plans to support the International Year of Water Cooperation and events Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for on World Water Day on 22 March 2013. [147441] International Development how many (a) 0800, (b) 0808, (c) 0844, (d) 0845 and (e) 0870 telephone numbers Lynne Featherstone: DFID will host events on World for the public are in use by her Department. [147822] Water Day on how water impacts on girls and women, and our support to improving access to services and Mr Duncan: DFID uses an 0845 number for the managing water resources. DFID will continue supporting Public Inquiry Point. There are no other 08 numbers in international cooperation on water in Africa and Asia. use. 1MC Ministerial Corrections13 MARCH 2013 Ministerial Corrections 2MC

They have since met with Wiltshire county council Ministerial Correction to discuss the TransWilts Rail project, and with West of England Partnership to discuss the Bristol Metro Wednesday 13 March 2013 project. A meeting is planned with councils and passenger groups in West Berkshire and Wiltshire to discuss TRANSPORT electrification. We will be meeting authorities again after the announcement on the franchise programme Great Western Railway Line has been made in the spring. Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for The correct answer should have been: Transport what recent conversations he has had with (a) the West of England Partnership, (b) Passenger Focus, (c) local authorities in the south west and (d) Mr Simon Burns: Since 31 January 2013, departmental other stakeholders on the Great Western franchise officials have spoken to all local authorities served by concession. [146691] the franchise that had specified priced options in the [Official Report, 7 March 2013, Vol. 559, c. 1111W.] Great Western Invitation to Tender. Letter of correction from Simon Burns: They have since met with Wiltshire county council An error has been identified in the written answer given to discuss the TransWilts Rail project, and with West to the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) of England Partnership to discuss the Bristol Metro on 7 March 2013. project. The full answer given was as follows: A meeting is planned with councils and passenger groups in West Berkshire and Wiltshire to discuss Mr Simon Burns: Since 31 January 2013, departmental electrification. We will be meeting authorities again officials have spoken to all local authorities served by after the announcement on the franchise programme the franchise. has been made in the spring.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 13 March 2013

Col. No. Col. No. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 287 PRIME MINISTER ...... 297 Mali ...... 287 Engagements...... 297 Mali ...... 290 Engagements...... 302 Palestinian Authority ...... 289 Engagements...... 303 Palestinian Authority ...... 293 Millennium Development Goals ...... 301 Peacekeeping and Defence Operations...... 292 Ministerial Visits...... 303 Syria...... 291 Topical Questions ...... 294 WaterAid ...... 288 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 13 March 2013

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 11WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 12WS CPS Report...... 11WS Falkland Islands Referendum ...... 12WS CABINET OFFICE...... 11WS Local and Mayoral Election Guidance...... 11WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 13 March 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 217W DEFENCE—continued Bus Services: Conditions of Employment ...... 217W Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft...... 223W Business: Lancaster...... 218W North Africa ...... 223W Higher Education: Barrow in Furness...... 218W Pipelines...... 224W Investment: Lancaster...... 219W Rosyth Dockyard ...... 224W Shipping: Training ...... 220W Shops: Empty Property...... 220W EDUCATION...... 239W Ultra Electronics...... 221W Addison Lee...... 239W Vocational Training...... 221W Civil Servants: Codes of Practice ...... 239W Curriculum ...... 239W CABINET OFFICE...... 252W Free Schools: Yorkshire and the Humber...... 240W Electoral Register...... 252W GCE A-level...... 240W Government Departments: Location ...... 253W Long Term Unemployed People...... 253W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 215W Older People: Brigg...... 253W Biofuels...... 215W Population: Clwyd ...... 255W Green Deal Scheme...... 215W Suicide ...... 263W Ofgem ...... 216W Peat Bogs ...... 216W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 233W Bus Services: Conditions of Employment ...... 233W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Council Housing: Greater London ...... 234W AFFAIRS...... 224W First Time Buyers: Brigg...... 235W Fires: Nuisance ...... 224W Housing: Kingston Upon Hull...... 235W Greenhouse Gas Emissions...... 225W Local Government: Conditions of Employment.... 236W Inland Waterways ...... 225W Shops: Empty Property...... 236W Litter: Yorkshire and the Humber...... 226W Slaughterhouses: Inspections ...... 226W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 250W Art Works: Scotland ...... 250W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 213W Direct Selling ...... 250W Bosnia and Herzegovina...... 213W Internet: Access...... 251W British Indian Ocean Territory...... 213W Mass Media ...... 251W Members: Correspondence ...... 214W Television: Licensing ...... 251W North Korea ...... 214W World War I: Anniversaries...... 252W HEALTH...... 240W DEFENCE...... 222W Abortion: Lancashire...... 240W Afghanistan ...... 222W Age: Discrimination...... 241W Armed Forces: Redundancy...... 222W Antidepressants ...... 242W Cybercrime ...... 223W Better Hospital Food Panel...... 242W Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH—continued JUSTICE—continued Cancer: Drugs...... 242W Offenders: Rehabilitation ...... 267W Chemotherapy ...... 243W Personal Injury: Compensation...... 268W Dietary Supplements...... 243W Prisoners: Dartford ...... 269W Fertility ...... 243W Prisoners on Remand...... 269W Heart Diseases: Children...... 244W Probation ...... 271W Idiopathic Pulmonary Fibrosis ...... 245W Small Claims...... 271W Methadone...... 245W Supervision Orders...... 272W NHS: Public Consultation ...... 245W Young Offenders ...... 273W NHS: Standards...... 246W Palliative Care...... 246W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 214W Psychiatry: Whyndyke Farm ...... 248W Budget March 2013...... 214W Radiotherapy ...... 248W Electoral Register...... 214W Smoking: Bus Services ...... 249W Firearms: Licensing ...... 215W Solanum...... 249W G8...... 215W Tobacco: Retail Trade ...... 249W TRANSPORT ...... 232W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 227W London Midland ...... 232W Automatic Number Plate Recognition ...... 227W Rescue Services: Belfast ...... 232W Communications Data Bill (Draft)...... 228W Rescue Services: Stornoway ...... 232W Dangerous Driving ...... 228W Roads: Accidents ...... 233W Deportation: Zimbabwe...... 229W Shipping: Regulation...... 233W Entry Clearances: Overseas Students ...... 231W Members: Correspondence ...... 231W TREASURY ...... 236W Vetting ...... 232W Business: Finance...... 236W Corporation Tax: Northern Ireland ...... 236W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 227W Floods: Insurance ...... 237W Conditions of Employment...... 227W Local Government ...... 237W Revenue and Customs...... 237W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 278W Revenue and Customs: Cumbria...... 238W Afghanistan ...... 280W Tax Avoidance and Evasion ...... 238W Better Governance ...... 279W Taxation: Business ...... 238W Economic Development...... 278W Welfare Tax Credits...... 239W G8...... 279W Private Sector: Development...... 278W WALES...... 216W Rwanda...... 280W Plants...... 216W Tax Avoidance: Developing Countries ...... 279W Social Fund...... 217W Telephone Services...... 280W UN Aid Target...... 278W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 273W Water ...... 279W Employment: Bradford ...... 273W Employment: North West ...... 273W JUSTICE...... 265W Housing Benefit: Social Rented Housing ...... 274W Alcoholic Drinks: Designated Public Places Jobcentre Plus ...... 274W Orders...... 265W Means-tested Benefits ...... 275W Bail ...... 265W Pensioners: Poverty ...... 275W Legal Aid Scheme ...... 267W Universal Credit...... 276W Offences Against Children ...... 267W Work Capability Assessment...... 277W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Wednesday 13 March 2013

Col. No. TRANSPORT ...... 1MC Great Western Railway Line...... 1MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 20 March 2013

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 13 March 2013

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 287] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for International Development Prime Minister

Bishops (Consecration of Women) [Col. 310] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Diana Johnson)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Crime and Courts Bill [Lords] (Programme No. 2) [Col. 315] Programme motion (No.2)—(Mr Jeremy Browne)—agreed to As amended, considered

Freedom of Speech: Members of Parliament [Col. 425] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Legal Services [Col. 435] Rating and Valuation [Col. 438] Tax Credits [Col. 442] Transport [Col. 446] Motions, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall British Sikh Community [Col. 71WH] First World War Centenary [Col. 96WH] Probation Service [Col. 105WH] Operation Jasmine (Care Home Abuse) [Col. 129WH] Secondary Schools: Newark [Col. 138WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 11WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 213W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 1MC]