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Home , Cecil Andrus, Dirk Kempthorne, John Kitzhaber, Marc Racicot, Mike Leavitt, Phil Batt

TRANSCRIPT Policy after Politics How should the next administration approach public land management in the western states?

Presented on June 1, 2000 By The Andrus Center for Public Policy Cecil D. Andrus, Chairman Student Union Boise, TRANSCRIPT Policy After Politics How should the next administration approach public land management in the western states?

Presented on June 1, 2000 By The Andrus Center for Public Policy Cecil D. Andrus, Chairman

Student Union Boise State University Boise, Idaho

©2000 The Andrus Center for Public Policy FROM THE CHAIRMAN

During the coming months, the major presidential contenders will spend a lot of time in campaign planes, flying over the American west. Unfortunately, it will be a rarity when one of the major party candidates actually campaigns in the vast region from to San Francisco, from Missoula to Albuquerque. Even more rarely will the candidates address the huge issues that dominate the politics, the economics, and the lives of westerners. Nonetheless, in early November a new president-elect will start the critical process of putting together a government that will, indeed must, confront our issues. On June 1, 2000, the Andrus Center brought together a distinguished cast of current and former western governors of both parties with the goal of giving the new president and his future cabinet our game plan for how to shape the “policy after politics” in the west. Whether you are a conservationist worried about the future of salmon, a livestock operator concerned about a new approach to grazing on the public lands, a wood- products worker outraged by a roadless policy, or a citizen bedeviled by urban sprawl and oil prices, you will be interested in this discussion. We asked the governors to check the election-year rhetoric at the door but to come fully armed with their best practical, candid, and non-partisan advice. They did just that, and I have pledged to deliver personally to the president-elect the white paper that came out of the comments they made. It is our hope that those observations and suggestions will help shape a western agenda in the next Administration.

Cecil D. Andrus Chairman Andrus Center for Public Policy CONFERENCE PROGRAM Policy After Politics How should the next administration approach public land management in the western states?

June 1, 2000

7:00 a.m. Registration 1:30–2:30 a.m. Panel Discussion 2nd floor, BSU Student Union. Moderated by: Marc Johnson, Former Chief of Staff 8:15 a.m. Continental breakfast for Andrus Lobby of Jordan Ballroom, Participants: BSU Student Union. , Governor of 8:40 a.m. Opening gavel for Policy After Politics Marc Racicot, Governor of Jordan Ballroom, BSU Student Union. , Former Governor of Idaho Remarks and introductions by: First Republican governor in 24 years, former Cecil D. Andrus, Chairman, legislator, lieutenant governor, and leader on nuclear waste issues. Andrus Center for Public Policy Norm Bangerter, 8:50 a.m. Welcome and comments by: Former Governor of , Governor of Idaho Former Chairman of Western Governors Association, two-term Republican governor, former speaker of 9:00–10:30 a.m. Keynote address: the Utah House of Representatives, leader on western “How should the next administration resource issues. approach public land management in Mike O’Callaghan, the western states?” Former Governor of Nevada John Kitzhaber, Idaho native, graduate, two-time Democratic governor, currently executive editor of A senior western, two-term Democratic governor and the Las Vegas Sun. recent advocate of breaching the four lower dams to aid salmon recovery. Jay Shelledy, Editor, Salt Lake Tribune Marc Racicot, Governor of Montana Former editor and publisher of Moscow Pullman Daily News, former managing editor of Lewiston Two-term governor and former state attorney Morning Tribune, award-winning columnist, reporter, general, who plays an influential role as close friend and keen observer of western politics. and advisor to Governor George W. Bush. 2:30–3:30 p.m. Forum for questions to and from 10:30 a.m. Refreshment Break speakers, responders, and audience. 11:00 a.m. Question and Answer Forum Moderated by: Moderated by: John C. Freemuth, Ph.D., Cecil D. Andrus, Chairman, Senior Fellow, Andrus Center for Public Policy Andrus Center for Public Policy Noon Luncheon, Jordan Ballroom, 3:30 p.m. Conference adjourned BSU Student Union. Speaker: Jay Shelledy, Editor, Salt Lake Tribune TABLE OF CONTENTS Policy After Politics How should the next administration approach public land management in the western states?

Presented on June 1, 2000 By The Andrus Center for Public Policy At the Student Union, Boise State University Boise, Idaho

OPENING REMARKS: Chairman Cecil D. Andrus ...... Page 5 WELCOME: Governor Dirk Kempthorne ...... Page 6 Governor of Idaho 1ST KEYNOTE ADDRESS: The Honorable John Kitzhaber ...... Page 8 Governor of Oregon 2ND KEYNOTE ADDRESS: The Honorable Marc Racicot ...... Page 13 Governor of Montana QUESTIONS & ANSWERS: Moderator: Cecil D. Andrus...... Page 20 LUNCHEON ADDRESS: Jay Shelledy ...... Page 29 Editor, Salt Lake Tribune DISCUSSION PANEL: The Honorable Phil Batt...... Page 35 Former Governor of Idaho The Honorable Norm Bangerter...... Page 36 Former Governor of Utah The Honorable Mike O’Callaghan...... Page 37 Former Governor of Nevada Jay Shelledy ...... Page 38 Editor, Salt Lake Tribune OPEN FORUM: Keynote Speakers, Panelists, Audience...... Page 38 PARTICIPANTS: Biographies...... Page 47 Policy After Politics How should the next administration approach public land management in the western states?

Presented by The Andrus Center for Public Policy at Boise State University Thursday, June 1, 2000 8:30 a.m. Morning Session Keynote Speakers: John A. Kitzhaber, M.D. Governor of Oregon Marc Racicot Governor of Oregon

GOVERNOR CECIL D. ANDRUS: Good morning and are all free to speak their minds, and we hope we can give welcome to our Year 2000 meeting where we will discuss direction to the next president and his cabinet in order to policies after politics. My name is , Chairman of have a voice from the western . the Andrus Center for Public Policy at Boise State University. There is a difference of opinion on the management of We have many distinguished guests here with us today. I’d public lands, but the first thing we have to remember is that like to welcome all of my gubernatorial friends from present the public, not the federal government, owns the land. The and past and tell you how much I appreciate your willingness federal government manages those lands for the public, and to be here with us today. we have a strong difference of opinion throughout the United A couple of announcements. I’d like to introduce Dr. John States and the western United States as to how certain areas Freemuth. John is a tenured professor at Boise State of the land should be managed. There is a strong difference University. He is also a senior fellow at the Andrus Center for of opinion within this room. Public Policy, is active in the political science field and in What we hope and expect and what we’re going to demand natural resources, and is a good person for you to know. is a voice in the process that creates the methodology by Our luncheon speaker is Jay Shelledy. He’ll be introduced which the public lands will be managed. We hope it will not later and will be a stimulating speaker. Your credentials get be a top-down process but a bottom-up decision process. you into the luncheon and anything else that we have going None of us will win all the battles we want to win, but our on. goal is to have a voice in the solutions. Now briefly, the purpose of this symposium and the reason At the end of today’s session, we will then put together a we entitled it “Policy after Politics.” Politics dominates white paper. You’ll all receive that. After that, I will see that everything in this election year for the presidency of the it is delivered to the next president of the United States, and United States. We have no idea which one of the major it will be distributed, we hope, to those potential candidates candidates will be elected, but here’s what we’re trying to for cabinet posts and others who will have a voice in the do. Some of us feel that the west and certainly some of the management of the public lands. So that’s what we’re here resource areas are ignored. The candidates for the presidency for today. of the United States have a tendency to fly over us and look I do not believe that between now and November you’re down on their way to Seattle, Portland, and San Francisco going to see much of a change in attitude or situation because where the people and the votes are. They don’t pay much politics dominates. The group today is not non-partisan, but attention to the Rocky Mountain West. We’ve seen evidence it is bi-partisan. We hope we can come up with some of the of that in both political parties. answers. This symposium is comprised of current governors—both I see, as I sit here and look over the audience, members of of whom are serving their last terms as governors—and former the Legislature of this state, of Oregon and of Nevada, and governors, who tell me they have no desire to run again, many others are here as well. I welcome you and thank you particularly in the political environment we have today. They for coming.

5 Let me begin by introducing the governor of the state of at a more appropriate time. On Tuesday in Milwaukee, Vice Idaho. I was first elected governor in 1970, and last night, I President Gore gave a speech on his environmental issues, asked Dirk what he was doing in 1970. He said, “I was about and today, in Reno, Nevada, Governor Bush will put forward to graduate from high school.” This young man served as his vision for a conservation policy. So this week, the national mayor of the capitol city and as a United States Senator, but debate has begun. Today, all of you are participating to help he decided, as I did, that , D.C. was not the place shape that. to be and came home. Governor Batt made it very convenient It’s my understanding that representatives from both the for him by saying he was not going to run for re-election. Vice President and the Governor of Texas are in attendance Dirk was elected Governor of the State of Idaho and has been here today, and so I welcome you, too, as we listen to the a friend of mine for many years. Dirk Kempthorne, ladies and distinguished panelists today. This may be the equivalent of gentlemen, Governor of the State of Idaho. a master’s course, a very shortened version, and in the GOVERNOR DIRK KEMPTHORNE: Governor Andrus, process, you’ll learn more about the west and about why those you’ve always been a tough act to follow, and this is the of us who are fortunate enough to live here have values and toughest. I’m very mindful that my role here today is to bring perspectives on land and water and resource issues that are you the official welcome. It’s very important to recognize very different from those who live in the east. A lot of it comes when you’ve been asked to be the keynoter and when you down to the concept of space. I think it’s difficult for most have not been asked to be the keynoter, and I’m mindful of people who aren’t from the west to truly grasp the vastness, that. I’m also mindful of the old adage: blessed are the brief the distance, the sheer breadth of the open spaces where we for they shall be invited back. With that, I want to thank live, work, and play. Governor Andrus for the introduction, and let me also join Consider this: Highway 95 is the north-south transportation in welcoming all of you to Idaho. We’re proud to have this artery of Idaho. If you drive its length from the Canadian symposium that’s taking place in the capitol of Idaho, and I border to the Nevada state line, it’s a trip of about 535 miles. want to commend Governor Andrus for the time, the energy, It goes through one state. It’s inhabited by a little over one and the vision that he has put into the Andrus Center and the million people. Now take Interstate 95, the north-south artery annual conferences. I believe this is the fifth anniversary, of the eastern seaboard. If you drive it from Washington, D.C. and I congratulate him for that. to Boston, it’s roughly the same distance as our Highway 95, I also extend a welcome to my fellow governors, Mark but instead of one state and a million people, that same length Racicot of Montana and John Kitzhaber of Oregon—two of I-95 passes through nine states and is home to some 40 governors whom I enjoy working with. We’ve had a number million people. Consider this: take all of the land here in Idaho of occasions to work together and to discuss policy. In fact, that is under federal management, and it is equivalent to the we’re having a little meeting later today. I also want to total area of Connecticut, Delaware, , recognize the former governors who are graciously with us Maryland, New Jersey, , New Hampshire, and Rhode today: Governor Phil Batt, Governor Norm Bangerter of Utah, Island—just the federal land in Idaho—all of those states and Governor Michael O’Callaghan of Nevada. Join me in combined. thanking these gentlemen for their service. When I was in the U.S. Senate, one of the people with whom We’re gathered here today to discuss policy after politics. I worked closely was the late John Chafee, a great man and a That may sound like some western version of “Crossfire” or very dear friend. Senator Chafee was in Idaho in the mid- the “McLaughlin Group” where all of us fearlessly make our 90’s for a field hearing on the Endangered Species Act. Many prognostications on what our next administration—whether of you participated with me in that hearing. You recall that at George W. Bush or Al Gore—will do to change the course of that time, we’d been ravaged by forest fires in the Payette public land management. However, I hope and expect that National Forest. John and I flew over the area of the biggest the dialogue here today will be just as stimulating and perhaps blaze, and I told John that in the time that it took to fly over more civilized than those political gabfests. just the amount of timber that had been burned, one could Each of the distinguished panelists here today has had a fly over the entire state of Rhode Island. That made a real great deal of experience dealing with difficult issues involved impression on him. in public lands management. Of course, Governor Racicot and It isn’t just this concept of open space that differentiates Governor Kitzhaber are still very much in the thick of it. The us in the west from the east. It’s living with the fact that the timing of this conference and the topic couldn’t have come federal government controls how those open spaces can and,

6 in many cases, cannot be used. Roughly one-third of the federal government in a collaborative process to craft public United States is comprised of federal land, but the eleven land policies that can garner wide support. It’s not always an western United States are home to more than 62% of all federal easy process. Each of the governors can also show you battle land. Add and Hawaii to that equation, and it jumps scars and tell you war stories of failed attempts to reach to nearly 93%. So while land management decisions are made consensus on a land management issue. But the alternative— in the east, the day-to-day impact of those decisions falls not listening and not taking into account these different disproportionately on the west. views—is a recipe for failure. When I was back in Washington several months ago at the Here in Idaho, our Federal Lands Task Force will soon be meeting of the National Governors Association, I had a chance proposing pilot projects that would test different management to speak with President Clinton at the White House. I asked strategies on federal lands. Their goal is to cut through the him whether he knew that his roadless initiative could have red tape and the road blocks, which all too often tie the hands a direct effect on the education of children in Idaho, and he of federal land managers in trying to do their jobs. It’s an seemed genuinely surprised by that and asked for more effort where we hope to provide federal land managers with information. I explained to him that, under the Idaho new ideas and new solutions and do so with the full Constitution, our state endowment lands must be managed cooperation and participation of the state. to provide the maximum long-range return to the state school If I may, I will just give you a perfect example of what can endowment fund, and, right now, more than 54,000 acres of happen when the job is done correctly, and it’s going on here Idaho endowment trust lands don’t have access rights over in the state of Idaho. It has to do with stemming the spread adjacent lands that are managed by the Forest Service. Over of destructive, noxious weeds in the largest wilderness area the next thirty years, those lands are projected to generate in the continental United States, the 2.4 million acres of the more than $163 million dollars directly to the trust institutions, River of No Return Wilderness. These weeds primarily public schools. But if we cannot have access to those choke off native vegetation in their wake. They can overtake lands, then Idaho will be forced to find another way to come critical winter range for game species, cause soil erosion, and up with those dollars for our schools and for the education drive out native birds and insects. Throughout the west, the of our children. Bureau of Land Management estimates that these weeds are So whether it’s the roadless initiative or the acquisition of taking over 4,000 acres of public lands each and every day. more reserves through the Antiquities Act or the proposals They are far more devastating than the wildfires. In the Frank to ban motorized recreation in our national parks, I believe Church Wilderness, the Forest Service says these weeds are any discussion on what direction public lands management the number one ecological threat and that more than 500,000 should take in the future must, by definition, look at the acres of habitat in the wilderness are threatened by their direction it’s headed today. The current direction disturbs spread. me because, more often than not, many of this Now the extreme position would be to do nothing. A literal administration’s actions have been taken without having the interpretation of the 1964 Wilderness Act would suggest that people who must live with these decisions in on the ground these lands be left in their natural state and, as the act says, floor of the decision-making process. That’s something that left “untrammeled by man.” A purist would say that the weeds further deepens the mistrust and the skepticism that comes should be allowed to run their course, regardless of the naturally to those of us in the west when it comes to federal consequences and that man should do nothing in the land management decisions, regardless of one’s political wilderness to alter nature’s intent. In fact, there were some affiliation. who advocated this policy. But people who care deeply about So what advice on public lands management would I give these lands, both inside and outside government, recognize the next President? I can boil it down to just four words: the kind of devastation that could be wrought if that policy listen to the states. Today, it is in the states where the real were left unchecked. These groups banded together to devise solutions are being developed. Each of the governors here a response. The Forest Service and the Idaho Department of today can give you an example of how commitment to Agriculture agreed to participate. So did outfitters and guides. cooperation and collaboration with all of their stakeholders So did private landowners. So did white-water enthusiasts. has produced real results. Since we’re the ones that have to So did the private foundations that support wild sheep and live with federal decisions, it’s in our self-interest to get them Rocky Mountain elk. They went through the full EIS process done correctly. We’re willing and eager to work with the and secured approval to treat the weeds inside the wilderness

7 boundaries. They determined which areas would benefit from States, particularly the Rocky Mountain states, and it’s treatment from the air and which were better treated on the important that we have some input at the front end from ground. They organized pack trips and float trips into the experienced people. wilderness where field crews treated or ripped out the weeds. The experienced people are here today. Each one of our Two weeks ago, I attended a meeting of the Federal Invasive speakers has been very successful in his own right. I now Species Advisory Committee in Washington, D.C. I serve as a look forward to comments from the governor of the great member of that committee with Secretary Glickman, Secretary state of Oregon, John Kitzhaber. Daley, and Secretary Babbitt. This particular effort in Idaho GOVERNOR JOHN KITZHABER: Thank you very much and has been showcased as a textbook example of how states thank you for your welcome, Governor Kempthorne. When I can work in a collaborative effort with the federal saw Cecil squirming up here, enjoying one of his most government, so much so that Secretary Glickman gave it a embarrassing moments, I was reminded of another $100,000 federal grant to keep our efforts going. embarrassing moment, told to me by a diplomat from Peru. Call me an idealist, but I don’t see why this kind of success He told of an evening in which he had gone to his third story can’t be replicated in other public lands issues here in reception, had had a few drinks, and looked across the room Idaho and throughout the west. If the next administration and saw this beautiful woman standing there in a long red commits to a public lands policy that listens to all sides, dress, red hat. He was just swept away. As he looked across, creates a collaborative process, and has a full airing of the their eyes met, and the music started playing. It literally trade-offs involved, then we will have charted a course that’s carried him across the floor, and he walked up to her and more productive and more effective in achieving the goals asked her to dance. She said, “No, for three reasons. One, shared by a vast majority of people in the west. you’re drunk. Two, that’s the Peruvian national anthem, and In an election year, it’s almost a given that candidates from third, I’m the Archbishop of Lima.” So consider yourself lucky. both parties will invoke the name of in I appreciate very much having been invited to this support of their efforts. I fully expect that to be the case this symposium. The objective of the conference today, as I year. But let me leave you with one quote from T.R. that I understand it, is to provide some guidance for the next hope both candidates take to heart. Teddy Roosevelt said, Administration concerning the management of public lands “Eastern people need to keep steadily in mind the fact that in the west. This is an extraordinarily worthwhile and timely the westerners, who live in the neighborhood of the forest exercise, and it needs to begin with a recognition of three preserves, are the ones who, in the last resort, will determine things. The first is that the reason that the management of whether or not these preserves will be permanent. They public lands is an issue is primarily the result of the growing cannot be kept in the long run as forests and game conflict between economic interests and environmental reservations unless the settlers round about believe in them interests over the management of these lands and over what and heartily support them.” That was sound advice then, and these lands should be managed for. Management must be it’s sound advice today. based on a policy that balances a broad range of interests— The public lands policies of the next administration can of values, if you will—one that reduces polarization and work only if they have the broad support of the people who increases collaboration. have to live with them each and every day. Today, you have Second, we need to recognize, as we enter the 21st Century, an outstanding opportunity to have this discussion of public that our environmental problems are becoming much more land policy because of the stature of the people that are here, complicated and much more challenging and that they have the governors, and Mr. Frampton, with whom I’ve had the very complex social and economic interconnections. While pleasure of working and who knows how to collaborate and some environmental problems still lend themselves to the work well with others. traditional tools of regulation and litigation, we are at a point So Governor Andrus, I commend you for establishing this in time where I think we need to be open and receptive to symposium, and I know the results are going to be well worth new tools, perspectives, and approaches. the effort. Thank you all very much, and welcome to Idaho. Third, we must recognize that the management of public ANDRUS: Thank you very much, Governor. Ladies and lands must be based on a commitment to sustainability. Now, gentlemen, as we turn to the future and consider what we I define sustainabiliy as managing the use and development should do, it is my opinion that neither of the major parties’ and protection of our natural, social, and environmental candidates have a working knowledge of the western United resources in a way that enables us to meet our needs today

8 without compromising the ability of future generations to quality is evidence of the fact that we have reached, if not meet their needs. When you talk about sustainability, it is exceeded, the carrying capacity of our ecosystem. important to understand that this definition requires that we A sound economy is very important to the west, but so is simultaneously meet environmental, economic, and the health of the natural environment in which all westerners community needs. Imagine, if you will, three circles, one of must live. The collision between these two equally legitimate which represents economic needs, one environmental needs, values has led to an escalating conflict. People have taken and one social or community needs. Where those circles sides, have taken “stakes,” if you will, and we call them overlap is the area of sustainability. “stakeholders.” The primary battleground has been the United Historically, the debate over public lands management in States Congress, the state legislatures, and the courts. The the west has been cast in a way that views these three circles 1990 listing of the northern spotted owl under the Endangered as separate, discreet, unrelated entities. Our challenge in the Species Act illustrates how this conflict has traditionally been 21st Century is to understand that environmental needs, played out across the west. This listing and the subsequent economic needs, and community needs are inter-related and court orders that backed it up led to a dramatic reduction in must be balanced with that in mind. timber harvest off federal lands in the state of Oregon and in So let’s begin our discussion with the federal lands, which many other western states. Although the debate ultimately comprise, as Governor Kempthorne said, a significant portion led to the Northwest Forest Plan, the polarization literally of the land mass west of the 100th meridian. It’s here where tore communities apart and has left deep scars in many rural- we are witnessing a growing conflict between economic and oriented communities, scars that have yet to heal. environmental interests. This isn’t new. There has always So one of the primary objectives, it seems to me, for federal been a tension in the west between economic development land management must be to reduce this kind of polarization and the powerful landscapes that define this part of the and to arrive at a sustainable balance between economic and country, between the extraction of natural resources on the environmental interests in a way that builds community one hand and concern over long-term environmental rather than disrupts community. That can only be done by protection on the other hand. For decades, the western an administration committed to involving western economy has depended, to a very large extent, on the stakeholders in a meaningful dialogue about shared objectives extraction of natural resources from federal lands. Timber and about sustainable solutions. harvests, irrigated agriculture, grazing, and mining operations I realize that is not an insignificant challenge because the have provided millions of jobs for westerners and have debate over land management, particularly federal lands, has brought very significant economic benefits to the region and historically been a very black and white one. The stakeholders to its people. on opposite sides of the issues operate from deeply The rivers and streams that link federal land with private entrenched positions. For well over a century, it has been land have also contributed to the natural resource-based cast as an either/or debate in which economic benefits have economy of the west through federal policies that both been pitted directly against environmental health, a debate encouraged and subsidized their development—from the in which there always has to be a winner and a loser. Desert Land Act of 1877 to the Newlands Reclamation Act of To a large extent, it is a debate about symbols rather than 1902 to the huge federal water developments of the last substance. The debate over the Lower Snake River dams is a century. The publicly-financed hydroelectric system on the case in point. To the environmental community, the dams Columbia and Snake Rivers, for example, has brought to the are a symbol of the subjugation of a great river and of the Pacific Northwest some of the cheapest power in the country, degradation of an ecosystem. To the economic stakeholders, irrigated agriculture, and a low-cost transportation route all the dams are a symbol of the regional economic benefits that the way from the Pacific Ocean to Lewiston, Idaho, 800 miles flowed from the dams and from the hydroelectric systems. If inland. we’re going to find meaningful solutions to this conflict At the same time, this single-minded pursuit of economic between legitimate values, then we’re going to have to move development and natural resource extraction has come at a beyond the symbols and commit ourselves to conducting the substantial cost, one that we are only now beginning to debate on a higher plane. appreciate. The growing number of threatened and To recast the debate, federal land management in the west endangered species in this region as well as the tens of must be built on the foundation of a single over-arching policy thousands of stream miles with severely compromised water objective that drives the management plan. I would argue to

9 you that the objective should be watershed or ecosystem sixty Forest Service and BLM projects that were consistent health. Let me illustrate this concept, if I can, with a timely with the eleven-point plan. What this demonstrates is that it example from my own state. Forest health. Five years ago, is possible to engage in broadly-supported watershed and we started looking at what we could do to try to improve the forest restoration work that both improves ecosystem health health of the federal lands in the east side of the state of and provides economic benefits to local communities. In Oregon, particularly in the pine forests that have been balancing the different values, this approach is helping to re- ravaged by insects and disease. Like much of the cast the debate over federal land management in the west. intermountain west, the federal forests of eastern Oregon I want to emphasize that the key to success lies in having a were once blessed with huge stands of old-growth pines, single over-arching policy objective that drives the covering millions and millions of acres. management plan. In this case, it is the restoration of For much of the last century, however, forest management watershed health. If you stop to think about it, watershed policy has been characterized by active fire suppression and health is the fundamental building block from which all of by high-grading the valuable old-growth pines. This has the beneficial uses of our forest flow: water, a thriving forest, essentially transformed these forests to their present state, abundant timber, and healthy populations of species. a state of over-stocked stands of young pine fir, thousands It’s also important to point out that by focusing on of acres of dead and dying timber infested with insects, and protecting and restoring watershed health, we are not, in fact, a very high risk of catastrophic fires. Thousands of miles of elevating the importance of one particular value over another riparian areas have been damaged by harvest and grazing value. Rather, our objective is to restore a healthy, productive, practices as well as by urbanization and road-building. So on and sustainable forest ecosystem that, over time and across the one hand, you have a number of species, dependant on a the landscape, can provide a full range of social, economic, healthy watershed, that are suffering severe declines. On the and environmental benefits. So having watershed health as other hand, you have a number of timber-dependant rural the over-arching policy objective, again, does not place one communities that have seen a decline in their economic value ahead of other values because watershed health position and in employment. encompasses each of those other values. We can’t, for So we rejected the traditional tools of conflict and example, provide sustainable forest products and clean water confrontation and set about to find ways both to restore and habitat for species unless we first have a healthy, ecosystem health and to provide wood to communities in an functioning ecosystem. So the three legs upon which this environmentally sound fashion. The effort involved a panel strategy stands—social, environmental, and economic—are of highly-respected scientists, drawn from the northwest all interwoven and are dependent on the first, on a healthy, states, and a forest health advisory committee, which functioning ecosystem. consisted of a very diverse group of stakeholders living in We’ve recently expanded this effort by moving beyond a eastern Oregon. Their work led to a broadly-supported set of consideration of separate, individual projects to a eleven management principles for restoring ecosystem health. consideration of how we can integrate these restoration In a nutshell, this eleven-point plan calls for using active projects within an entire watershed. This effort, which is management to promote ecosystem health while avoiding called the Blue Mountain Demonstration Project, was highly-sensitive or highly-controversial areas. It also approved by the U. S. Forest Service in June of last year and emphasizes learning from our efforts through a monitoring encompasses almost three million acres, including federal component. The restoration treatments include understory land, state land, tribal lands, and private lands. So we have and commercial thinning; road maintenance, closure, and/ federal, state, local and tribal agencies working with private or obliteration; prescribed burning; noxious weed treatment landowners and environmentalists and community and prevention; riparian planting; and streamside restoration. stakeholders with the shared objective of improving the health The by-product of many of the thinning treatments is wood of both forest ecosystems and rural economies. for local mills to help stabilize rural communities. The thinning Again, the success depends on defining a common policy also reduces the risk of catastrophic fires, which have objective that unifies, rather than divides the interests and increased significantly as the forest health has deteriorated. one that provides a common denominator, which serves to The Eastside Panel, working with my office and other state balance the competing values. agencies, then started visiting project sites on U. S. Forest Now, it’s fair to say there is still some frustration in eastern Service and Bureau of Land Management lands and identified Oregon about the speed or the lack of speed with which the

10 sales are flowing through the Forest Service, but that is not a on a solid foundation of federal, state, and local regulation, function of a lawsuit, of confrontation, or a lack of consensus. including harvest limits, Clean Water Act requirements, the It’s a function of the bureaucratic process by which timber Forest Practices Act, land-use laws, and state water laws. sales move through the Forest Service. That’s something we The primary tool with which we implement efforts on the can, together, put our shoulders against to improve the flow ground is the local watershed council, made up of community of those sales. members representing a broad range of stakeholders, again While the management of federal lands themselves is working together to implement a plan that they helped clearly an issue of vital importance to western states, so are develop and that benefits the health of their own local federal policies that affect the management of private lands. watershed. And it works. In the last three years, these Chief among these are such federal environmental laws as voluntary efforts have taken more than 400 miles off the EPA the Endangered Species Act and the Clean Water Act. Since list of streams that have compromised water quality; we’ve meeting the requirements of these laws can’t be achieved on re-opened 430 miles of habitat by replacing culverts that were public lands alone but necessarily have to involve private impeding fish passage; we’ve decommissioned or upgraded lands as well, how these laws are being implemented must more than 1,470 miles of roads to reduce erosion; and we’ve be included in any discussion of federal land management. fenced more than 400 miles of streams to improve riparian Let me illustrate this point by using another Oregon areas. This represents far more on-the-ground success and example: in this case, the Endangered Species Act. We need progress in a three-year period than we ever could have to remember the turmoil that occurred in 1990 with the listing gotten under the strict regulatory approach of the Endangered of the northern spotted owl. I was practicing emergency Species Act alone. medicine in a timber-dependent community in southern Now working with private landowners is a fundamentally Oregon and had the advantage of seeing both the economic different animal than working with public agencies, especially and the social impacts of that decision. in the west. It’s critically important that federal policy makers Shortly after my first election in 1994, the National Marine understand that. In my 18 years of involvement in western Fisheries Service served notice of a possible listing of our state politics, I’ve experienced over and over again the fact coastal coho salmon. So I began to look for a different way to that an approach that involves private landowners in the comply with the Endangered Species Act, not just to avoid decision-making process and gives them some ownership and another natural resource war, although I think that’s an some investment in the work being done has a greater and important objective on its own, but rather because I didn’t more immediate positive impact on the resource than simply believe that relying solely on the Endangered Species Act was applying regulations that tell them what to do. going to have the desired environmental result that we hoped Telling people what to do with their private land in the for. We need to remember that the primary role of the federal west is a very explosive proposition. Ask any western government under the Endangered Species Act is a regulatory governor. The point is that we can’t recover the western coho one, and although regulation is an important tool, there are unless private landowners take restoration actions that go limits to its effectiveness. Regulation alone can keep people well beyond the avoidance of a take. So the question becomes: from doing the wrong thing, but it doesn’t provide any By what means can we achieve the activities on private land? incentives for people to do the right thing. So while the ESA Simply listing a species does not accomplish that, a fact can prevent landowners from engaging in activities that result illustrated by the Snake River chinook, which were listed in an intentional or unintentional kill or take of a listed under the ESA in 1992. In the intervening eight years, the species, it can’t compel them to do more than that. Yet 60 to National Marine Fisheries Service has taken virtually no action 70% of the coho salmon habitat lies on privately-owned land, to compel a change in private land management practices so therefore, recovery is going to occur only if the private anywhere in the Snake River Basin. landowners are willing to undertake restoration activities that The ESA was passed in 1973 and provides a means whereby go well beyond take-avoidance. So as a result, Oregon’s effort ecosystems upon which endangered and threatened species to comply with the Endangered Species Act, which we call depend be conserved. So with ecosystem conservation as the the Oregon Plan for Salmon and Watersheds, was designed objective of the ESA, application of the ESA is a means to an to involve and to empower and to give incentive to private end, not an end in itself. The question we need to ask landowners to make voluntary commitments to watershed ourselves is not whether we should prevent species from and habitat restoration. Now these commitments are built being pushed over the brink to extinction—all of us would

11 answer no to that question—but whether our traditional tools politics where the nature and the complexity of the problems of implementing the ESA are the most effective way to achieve that face us challenge us to seek new strategies for success that. and particularly those that call for and result in greater The Endangered Species Act was passed for a noble individual accountability and responsibility for our air, our purpose, and I still believe in that purpose. But now a quarter land, and our water. You can’t achieve that through of a century later, we need to have the courage to ask regulation. You can’t achieve that through confrontation. You ourselves whether the traditional application of that act by can’t achieve that through the courts. You can only achieve the National Marine Fisheries Service and the U. S. Fish and that through a collaborative and cooperative process that Wildlife Service is achieving its purpose. With more than a engages thousands of people and gives them a stake in the thousand species listed and dozens more proposed for listing problem as well as some degree of ownership in the solution. and with few species on their way to recovery, it’s clear to It was this belief, coupled with personal experience in me that we need to be open to new approaches. If federal seeing it work, that inspired me and Governor agencies insist on clinging rigidly to the existing lengthy, of Utah to extract a common set of principles that describes complex, contentious, litigious process of developing this approach to environmental management. We call these recovery plans under the ESA, they will doom many species eight principles “Enlibra,” which is a hybrid word coined by to extinction long before anything actually happens on the Governor Leavitt, which means “to move toward balance.” ground. The first principle, for example—national standards, To avoid that outcome, we have to recognize the futility of neighborhood solutions—recognizes the importance of relying solely on the traditional tools of regulation and national environmental standards and the need to enforce litigation to advance the cause of environmental health. Let those standards, but it urges flexibility and empowerment of me give you one example: the issue of water quality. The other levels of government to develop approaches that meet problems of point-source pollution lend themselves very well or exceed those standards without set federal prescriptions. to a regulatory model. That was really the challenge that faced It doesn’t seek to lower the bar; it seeks to provide alternative the Willamette River in Oregon when the late Governor Tom tools to achieve those common national environmental McCall led an effort to clean up the pollution in that river. standards. Enlibra also calls for good science; it calls for a Municipal sewage discharge points and pipes carrying good understanding of the broad costs and benefits involved industrial effluent or municipal waste can be easily identified in a particular strategy, including those to society; it calls for and regulated, fined, or shut down. But reducing non-point- a recognition of the power of incentives and the importance source pollution, which is the major issue facing the of collaboration; it calls for a focus on results; it calls for Willamette and throughout the west today, is an entirely looking at the scope of the problem along natural boundaries, different issue because it involves not only runoff from not along artificial, political ones. Finally, it recognizes that agricultural land, carrying fertilizer and pesticides, and runoff people need to understand their connection to the from timber lands, carrying silt to our streams. It also involves environment and their own stewardship responsibilities if runoff from roads, driveways, and rooftops in Portland and we’re to enjoy not only environmental health but social and Eugene and Albany and Salem and virtually all of urban and economic health as well. suburban Oregon. That involves what people put on their I want to make it very clear that I don’t reject or discredit lawns, whether or not they wash their cars in the driveway the tools of the past. And I don’t take lightly the significant with non-biodegradable detergent and on hundreds of other gains that they have achieved. The Clean Water Act, the Clean individual actions that all contribute to the non-point source Air Act, the Endangered Species Act—all grew out of the pollution load. traditional tools of conflict and confrontation and litigation. The reality is that there is no law or regulation that will But I also believe just as strongly that although we need access miraculously and suddenly change the behavior of hundreds to the courts and although we need a strong underpinning of of thousands of urban and suburban Oregonians. Rather it is environmental law and regulation, we need to have both the going to require sustained environmental stewardship. It’s wisdom and the courage to periodically reevaluate the going to require a long-term commitment to change the effectiveness of our tools in the way in which we have behavior of millions of people living in the watershed, most traditionally applied them. in urban or suburban settings. So what I’m suggesting to you today is that federal land So I believe we are entering a new era of environmental management and the implementation of federal

12 environmental laws in the west do not have to be a Let me give you another voice that has been sound, direct, contentious, win-lose, zero-sum game. To me, this is not about intelligent, and popular with his people in the state of sacrificing economic benefits for environmental health. It’s Montana, a man who was Attorney General in Montana, and about working together as a region to have both, and if the a man who is serving his second term as governor of Montana, next administration can frame the debate in those terms and a man who is a friend of Governor Bush of Texas, a man who work with western states to achieve that objective, we’ll have is going to have a voice and clout. Here is an individual I’m made an enormous advance in how we balance these values pleased to have had the chance to get to know and a man and how we manage public lands in the west. It’s really about that can speak for the western United States, Governor Marc striking a victory for regionalism over parochialism. To quote Racicot of the state of Montana. Wallace Stegner, it’s about “outliving our origins and building GOVERNOR MARC RACICOT: Thank you, Governor a society to match our scenery.” Andrus, and good morning to all of you. I’m delighted to be Now it may be too much to expect the stakeholders in this here today and to have the opportunity not only to speak struggle over land management to abandon their entrenched but, more importantly, to listen to what we might have to positions, but I think that it is imperative that they make the share with one another. It’s of course a great high privilege effort to at least see beyond them. The next administration to be engaged with former governors of some significant can help us by adopting a land management policy that unifies moment and notoriety and that have served the west rather than divides constituencies, by embracing exceptionally well. Of course, it is a privilege to be here with sustainability as a central objective, and by being open to my colleagues, with Governor Kempthorne and Governor new and innovative approaches to achieving federal Kitzhaber, and most importantly, with not only a former environmental standards. governor but former Secretary of the Interior and a good In the end, however, we need to come together ourselves friend who has provided advice and counsel to me on more as western states and as a region. As William Jennings Bryan than one occasion, Governor Andrus, Secretary Andrus. I’m pointed out, “destiny is not a matter of chance. It is matter of delighted that George Frampton is here as well from the choice. It is not a thing to be waited for. It is a thing to be Council on Environmental Quality in Washington, D.C. within achieved.” So today I invite all of you, but particularly the the Clinton Administration. It’s nice to have the opportunity next administration, to join me on this journey. to share with him as well. And of course I know there are Thank you. many people here this morning with a great deal of expertise ANDRUS: That’s an example of what western governors concerning the particular issue that we have under have the experience to talk about and to do that people who consideration this morning. have lived their lives east of the Mississippi River just don’t I need to begin with the acknowledgement that I am not a understand. That was an excellent paper that could be scientist. I have no formal training in natural resource presented to the next administration, John. Let me give you management or policy development, but I can speak to you one example: Watershed restoration on the coastal streams this morning from hard experience with a large state that was Governor Kitzhaber’s brainchild. He and I had a has a great many issues occurring within its boundaries. As a discussion about it many years ago. It works and works very matter of fact, we have probably the largest—in terms of land well. My brother happens to be a landowner with a coastal mass—scientific, environmental, social, and economic stream running through his property, one that has followed experiment going on presently in the United States of what you set out, and I’ve seen it work first hand. But they America, one that certainly engages all of the people of our must understand that a coastal stream without a dam or an state. We focus upon a number of different issues that have impediment upon it is a habitat situation where the inland to do with everything from grizzly bears to wolves to bison to states, like Idaho, have many thousands of miles of pristine salmon and bull trout and sturgeon, Endangered Species Act habitat, but we have three or four reds in those gravel beds management, and water quality issues, which surround simply because we do not have the returning adults. You know virtually all of our communities. As a consequence, we are the problem there. exposed to a great many competing interests and vagaries as So you can’t create a solution that fits all, but what you we have confronted these particular issues. need is people like Marc and John and Mike with the I can tell you that I understand implicitly—and have been experience to carry this out. That’s why we’re here today, taught this particular lesson on a number of different and that was a whale of a start. occasions over the course of the last seven and a half years

13 and even before that time although I may not have recognized actually inhibit and frequently preclude the kind of open it—that it is important, of course, to have information and to discussion that could, over time, produce an acceptable social prepare yourself adequately to discuss issues of importance. consensus. I think that is a sad state of affairs. Just as important, however, is how you use that information Quite frankly, our society should not be governed by and the context within which it is presented. Ultimately you whoever or whatever interest has the most political juice on need to determine its relevance to those with whom you have a given day. That is not a democracy. That’s a jungle. We a chance to communicate. It’s my great hope that I might be have to focus on different means and methods of bringing able to communicate to you this morning some information about sound and thoughtful environmental and economic that is relevant to the context in which we are discussing decisions in this country, or we’re going to lose the these issues. opportunity to that. That is particularly important and I had that particular lesson brought home to me most relevant to this region of the United States of America. If we recently when I visited a third-grade class to read to the third- do not see and embrace the opportunity to determine our graders. I arrived uncharacteristically early, and, as a own destiny, we will be the victims of the decisions made by consequence of that, I was exposed to a presentation by one those in other places, who, though not evilly motivated, of the third-graders. She obviously was taking this suffer—in my judgment—from at least a knowledge gap if not presentation very seriously. She had on what appeared to be a cultural gap in the understanding they possess, which one of her best dresses, and her hair was curled and ribboned. originated from other sources and possibilities not familiar She had a pointer and a very stern countenance, and she was to each of us. obviously deadly serious. She tapped her pointer and began So those of us in the west have a profound responsibility her lecture. She had prepared a diagram, which hung on the to seize the opportunity for us to move in directions that allow wall behind her. She turned around and pointed to the top of for us to make policy decisions about the west here in our the diagram and said, “There are three parts to the human region by exercising responsibility and thoughtfulness toward body. The first part is the head, and that’s where the brain those who are engaged in those debates and by proceeding is...if any,” she added. I took that to be an editorial comment in a direction that ultimately address the common interests offered by one of her parents. “The next part of the human of all. body is the chest,” she said, “and that’s where the heart is. Now I suspect, having said that, there will probably be a The third part is the stomach, and that’s where the bowels question about dam-breaching here in the state of Idaho, and are. There are five bowels: A, E, I, O and U.” It reminded me it will be reported by someone, I guarantee you, that Governor once again that it is important to have information, but it’s John Kitzhaber is on one side of the issue, being in favor of very important to present it in its right context. As a dam breaching, and that Governor Racicot spoke on the other consequence, it’s my hope this morning that I might be able side of the issue, being opposed to dam breaching. Now John to present some information to you in the right context. Kitzhaber and I are very good friends, and we have spent an I want to talk generally, first, about the quality and incredible amount of time talking about these issues. I have character of our debate these days. As Governor Andrus not only the highest degree of respect for his intellect and mentioned, once you have the opportunity to look back over intuition, but also a great deal of affection for him as a human a certain period of experience, you can sometimes offer being. The fact of the matter is, having had those discussions, concise, succinct, and candid advice and counsel. That can I know that there are only millimeters of difference—if any occur even prior to the time that you leave office. My intention difference at all—between how John Kitzhaber and I today is to share some of that advice and those experiences, ultimately see these issues. with you, ultimately, determining its relevance. But unfortunately, the grays of the issues will not be To me, importantly and sadly, the environment of our reported tomorrow. The positions that reflect only those that debate on the environment has become polluted all across can win and those that lose are reflected in this modern this country. It has become polluted by emotion, by media, which ultimately, to my mind, is very deleterious to inaccuracy, and by other elements that make it hard for being successful in policy resolution. democracy to even breathe in the modern world of amplified There are so many examples, it is hard for me to know media. It has become colored by suspicion, by cynicism, by where to begin. Let me tell you that I believe openness has to competition, obstructionism, and intentionally divisive be essential in our debates. The people that we serve have a debates that separate neighbors with common interests and right to see in, and they have a right to know intimately what

14 we are doing. Democracy operates better with a free flow of all of the areas in Montana that have been previously accurate and honest information, and, quite frankly, inventoried—that should be roadless. Now you understand government at any level—local, state or national—should my ultimate position in that regard. But how we get to that have nothing to hide. There is no strategic advantage that particular decision is, in my view, critically important. This ultimately is precipitated as a result of trying to move out of provides a lesson in how we need to make absolutely certain the blocks early in an effort to finish across the line. The fact that as we address these issues in the future, we do so in the of the matter is that more openness suggests more right way so that we can achieve ultimately the right solution. possibilities for success. There has been very little openness up to this point by the I also believe that management decisions with regard to Administration in dealing with the states in a meaningful way. our forested lands, endangered and threatened species, or We had grave concerns at the very beginning over the lack of environmental regulations of any kind whatsoever are going information that was provided to the states and to the public. to require that we engage more openly and embrace more The Notice of Intent did not contain information describing enthusiastically decisions that are made on the basis of sound which roadless areas were being considered, at least with a science, so as to avoid even more difficult and acrimonious degree of specificity that allowed for us to fully evaluate the challenges than those we already confront. Notice of Intent or to participate in a meaningful way. As a result, if I could—and had the discretion to—I would At the time of the scoping process, we could not fully change the title of this particular gathering to “before”, not determine what parcels of state lands could be impacted or “after.” In my view, it should be “policy before politics,” not affected. Neither could Governor Kempthorne, as you heard “policy after politics.” I firmly believe that sound policy makes, earlier this morning. The Notice provided no identifiable inextricably and inescapably, for good politics. description of the lands that would have been affected. If Now let me talk about some of these issues, and I could that obviously was the case—and it was—then how could we choose from a literal plethora of issues to talk about. But I at that time offer probative comments during the scoping think we need to use some examples to try to provide some process? You have to know what’s being scoped before you advice to those who follow hereafter. Let me, for instance, can scope it, and we didn’t know. talk about the roadless issue. This is an issue that all of us In Montana’s scoping comments, we formally requested have discussed. We have discussed it personally with Mr. to be designated as a cooperating agency under the National Frampton, and we all have some strong concerns. In regard Environmental Policy Act. We knew that would increase our to the roadless lands issue, the EIS presented by the United administrative burdens and workload substantially, but States Forest Service for consideration started off completely, nonetheless, after careful consideration, we felt that it was in my view, on the wrong foot. and still is vitally important to the resources in Montana and There clearly are already a number of different challenges to our communities that we assume that role. facing the United States Forest Service. For instance, within In the information that was provided by the Forest Service, Region I, which encompasses Montana and parts of Idaho, they made mention of the fact that there is strong public there is great concern over the impacts of budget constraints sentiment for protecting the benefits of these roadless areas. upon that agency. This year, there is a 9% decrease in the Those benefits focus upon clean water, biological diversity, accounts that fund the Forest Service’s permanent wildlife habitat and dispersed recreation. If these are the areas professional staff and its seasonal workers, who provide much upon which the document will focus—and we agreed that they of the on-ground management activity all across this region. are—then Montana has a shared legal responsibility over Managing the ten national forests in Montana will be very most, if not all of these issues. difficult as a result of those reductions. Those reductions are Clearly, we are inextricably interwoven into the regulatory made, in part, in an effort to direct enough resources toward patterns that will be required after the decisions are made. the completion of the roadless initiative. States have concurrent jurisdictions, as you know, over many Now as you all know, that has been recently released for of those issues and primacy over many of the others. As a review, but in my view, this process started with very little result of that, the state cannot and should not and does not openness being exhibited by the Administration to deal with want to escape from the responsibilities associated with the states in a meaningful way. I need to begin with a managing those lands, once the decisions are made. disclaimer when talking about this particular issue because I Now there is a memorandum that has been issued by the firmly believe that there are many areas in Montana—maybe Council of Environmental Quality that urges federal agencies

15 to more actively solicit the future participation of states, devise a way to keep forests healthy, which, if we choose to tribes, and local governments as cooperating agencies in do so would, even accidentally or coincidentally, produce implementing the environmental impact statement process. more fiber than we could possibly keep people busy So in other words, that is the fundamental policy that is in processing and making into useful products? place presently. They have clearly pointed out that, The fact of the matter is that we need to keep these areas considering NEPA’s mandate and the authority granted in healthy over the long run. We need to know that we can go federal regulations to allow for cooperating agency status back in in some way that is environmentally sensitive and for state, tribal, and local agencies, cooperating agency status make certain that we remove those dead and dying trees for appropriate non-federal agencies “should be routinely which are possibilities for ultimate destruction and solicited”, to quote the words contained within that catastrophic fires that can consume the west. We need to memorandum. We were not only not solicited to be a know that we’re going to be able to do something with roads cooperating agency, but we have had our request denied to in a way that makes sense and to be engaged in that decision- become a cooperating agency. making process. Now I don’t bring these issues up to make anyone Quite frankly, I think the inquiry that’s been carried on by uncomfortable although if that occurs—and I suspect that the Council of Environmental Quality and the United States probably it’s a possibility—I regret it if you feel any discomfort. Forest Service is too narrow. So not only did they not engage But the fact of the matter is that this is a teaching lesson for the west at the beginning, they drew the boundaries of the those who follow hereafter and in the next administration inquiry too tightly. And I think what ultimately has to be about how to go about addressing these particular issues. communicated to those in the decision-making roles is that The states should have been involved from the very beginning. if these values are going to be vindicated, namely if the rest The fact is that the states have the same legitimate interest of the country has strong concerns about the maintenance as the federal government in making certain that these of environmental and conservation values, then we need to roadless areas in the western United States are, in fact, determine the monetary cost of those particular values and properly cared for throughout the next series of years and ultimately provide the resources to be able to deal with those into the future and are properly stewarded for the rest of the issues. country. There should be no such thing, in my view, as a below-cost We recognize that these are national assets. We recognize timber sale. We ought to forget about that notion. If we want that we are the stewards of those national assets. We to vindicate the environmental ethics we all claim to believe recognize that there are a number of different values that in our national forests and roadless areas, then we’re going are embodied within our national forests. They are economic; to have to pay something to keep those lands in proper they are environmental; they are social; they are cultural. condition. If we’re going to pay something, then that means We know that the people of the west have the same strong the rest of the country doesn’t just get to tell others who rely concerns about the maintenance of those values as anyone upon the land presently, “You are no longer a part of the who lives on the other side of the Mississippi or the Potomac. equation.” We have to discover ways for us to be able to And we need to and have a right to be involved in making engage them and to keep them whole. those decisions. The same is true for dam breaching. I’m not afraid of the Now in my judgment, what has ultimately occurred with question of dam breaching. My belief is that there is not the roadless initiative is too narrow. I don’t think it should evidence yet available for us to draw that inescapable focus on just what’s going to happen with roadbuilding. I think conclusion. I believe the federal government, at the moment, we should take all of those inventoried lands, the inquiry believes the same, but I think it’s an open question. We have should be more expansive, and it ought to focus on forest to engage in the debate and the inquiry in thoughtful, honest, stewardship, on how we keep these forests healthy over a and candid ways. We also have to remember that there are long period of years. Clearly, roadbuilding is one of the issues people whose livelihoods and lives and communities depend involved in that debate, but it is not the only issue. How do on the present state of affairs. We have to keep them whole we keep them healthy and make certain they do not become in these decisions. So if it’s worth it to the country to remove any more of a tinderbox than they presently area? How do dams, then the country is going to have to pay for those who we make certain that we care for them into the future? Can’t are ultimately impacted. we as a people, living in west and the Rocky Mountain region, I don’t know a farmer or a rancher that lives anywhere

16 near a river or stream that’s dammed that, if they could be came up with 26 recommendations that Dirk and I and Jim kept whole, would not be delighted to have that particular Gerringer, with very slight modifications, endorsed stream or river restored to its original run. I don’t know enthusiastically and forwarded on to the Fish and Wildlife anyone that would not want that, but somehow, if we’re going Service. to vindicate these values, then we have to be willing to pay We have to discover different ways of making decisions in as a country for the values we seek to ultimately uphold. That this country. The margins are gone; the rhetoric is too is true of virtually all of these questions, whether they involve elevated; people get too angry; the marches in the streets grizzly bear management, bison management, water settle nothing; litigation ultimately consumes time and effort management, Columbia River hydrosystem, or removal of and emotion and is a poor way of trying to establish public dams. We shouldn’t be afraid of any of those inquiries. But policy. It’s not designed to establish public policy. before we make those decisions, we should recognize that So we should have great hope about the future. There is there may be a price to pay as a country to keep people whole tremendous promise for the possibility of making thoughtful who have become dependant as communities or as individuals decisions that all of us can live with and that can vindicate on precisely what it is that’s taking place in that region. the values that are so important to all of us. I don’t know one Now if I had the ability to provide advice to the next group single policy maker, Republican or Democrat, that wants to of policy makers that will be acting on our behalf at the federal foul the nest in which they live. It goes contrary to our level, I would provide the following advice. If, Heaven forfend, instincts as human beings. Who in the name of God wants to George Bush is not elected the next President of the United live in an atmosphere that is a threat to their own existence? States, I would provide the following simple instructions to So I honestly believe that there are ways to go about making try to be helpful. these decisions, ways that are very helpful and that can bring Number one: To those who work in the federal government, final resolution. My advice would be the following. It’s very who I know are well intentioned. I don’t believe anyone is very simple advice. evilly motivated in any of this process on either side of the First of all: Delegate. Devolve. Responsibility should be issues, Democrats or Republicans. I firmly and absolutely exercised in the field. It’s better that decisions be made in believe that we can solve these problems; I’m absolutely Boise than in Washington, D.C. As a result of that, I think that convinced of that. We just have to discover different decision- you have to look first at delegating, trusting. The Tenth making processes. When people are engaged with people Amendment is really built upon the notion that the framers, personally and not electronically and not burdened by the in the summer of 1787, believed that the people could be haste and waste that modern day life requires, they find trusted. They began with a presumption of trust. We begin solutions because they have the ability to be empatic with with a presumption of innocence in our criminal courts, for one another, sympathetic to the causes and concerns that God’s sake. Why should the federal government begin with a each holds so dearly in his or her heart. Ultimately, they can presumption of no trust in the states? It seems to me that’s find the margins for decision-making. I know that is absolutely the embodiment of the Tenth Amendment, to trust first and true because I have seen it in at least 95% of the cases that we that means to delegate and devolve first. People will rise to have the opportunity address in that way. the occasion. They will make the right decisions for the right Just day before yesterday, Dirk and I and Jim Gerringer reasons if you trust them to do it. from Wyoming received the report of the group of Montanans, Second: Be disciplined in your discourse and in your people from Wyoming and from Idaho, dealing with grizzly decision making, letting those decisions be embraced, owned, bear management in Yellowstone National Park and the and possessed by the people who are ultimately impacted by delisting process. We charged them two months ago—just two them. Those that do that will be constantly vindicated in their months ago—with coming up with a series of judgment that people will live up to the highest standards of recommendations for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to go vindicating values and decision-making. about the delisting process, and we had private citizens, Third: If you can’t delegate, then cooperate. Allow a ranchers, conservationists, and people in both state and partnership with states and with local governments and federal government. They made 26 recommendations that stakeholders. Delegate, but if you can’t, at least cooperate. were unanimously adopted in a consensus process where they Fourth: If you can’t cooperate, inform. Always keep people sat down and listened to one another, where they didn’t set informed at every level, particularly at the local level. I think about to win only on their terms. As a result of that, they that the roadless initiative, the EIS—even though it has some

17 elements that are presented that cause some pause and rather strongly in the state of Montana because if it hadn’t concern—is not nearly as bad as what people originally been for Montana, we wouldn’t have grizzly bears in the lower envisioned, and it’s not nearly as good as what some people 48 states. At one point in time, there was a federal program hoped for. But the fact is that it began in a shroud of secrecy to eradicate grizzly bears in the lower 48, and Montana that caused all to react in rather strong terms. As a resisted. As a result, we’re the only one of the lower 48 consequence of that, it was put into a context that has made states—except Idaho and Wyoming now claim because of it very difficult for people to speak about it dispassionately Yellowstone National Park, that they are engaged as well— and thoughtfully and scientifically. that has grizzly bears. So we have very strong beliefs in the Fifth: If you can’t inform, then at least advocate. To those diversity of wildlife in Montana. In fact, it’s much more new people who will be inside the next administration, it’s expansive in terms of numbers and varieties in Montana than not enough to have an enlightened approach. I think you also it was at the turn of the century. We’re very proud of that. have to advocate for the best interests of the people who are We had to give some encouragement to the Fish and ultimately impacted by very strong decisions. Wildlife Service because they set about to reintroduce grizzly Sixth: Finally, learn. These are very complex issues, and I bears into the Bitteroot Selway in a different way. They think the best way to set about making them in ways that can listened to us. They created a citizen management approach ultimately be embraced by those that we live with is to make and invested that citizens advisory group with the ability to sure that we know everything about them before we make a influence decisions. They dealt with mortality issues that we decision. For ourselves, study hard, and then come to a were concerned about, with financing issues that we were conclusion that is produced as a matter of conviction, of study concerned about. As a consequence, I believe that it is now and analysis that rises up within you. my responsibility—having said, as I said before, that you need In addition, be sensitive to the users, to all of them, whether to engage us—to step into the arena. I don’t know if it’s going they be recreationists, hikers, forest product workers— to work, but I’m absolutely convinced that it’s worth the effort whatever it might be. These are real people, real lives, and and that we may be able to bring about a different way of real pain involved in every single one of these decisions. making decisions in this country. That’s why when you hear people like John and me and others There are going to be disagreements on occasion, whether who have had the privilege of serving people in these you’re Democrats or Republicans, but don’t view them as capacities talking about these issues, you’ll sense that there partisan issues. If you studied hard, listened carefully, tried is some grey that we recognize. It’s not that we don’t have to do the right thing, based decisions on science, and were principles, not that we can’t make decisions, but we recognize sensitive to other people, then don’t characterize the that they are infinitely more complex than is articulated by decisions as partisan. I think there are just as many good those who see only a process of winning and losing. So be Republican conservationists as there are Democratic ones. sensitive and recognize that real people are involved in these Framing these issues as only Republican or Democratic issues issues. ultimately will do disservice, not only to the settlement of Finally, my advice would be to avoid partisanship. The the issues but to the people engaged and ultimately to this issues in Idaho or Nevada or Montana should be decided on region. their merits. Quite frankly, I can live with that. I don’t have So that would be my advice to those who are engaged in to win just my point of view every single day. If people are making policy before politics. Thank you very much. informed, if they are thoughtful, if they give some sensitivity ANDRUS: Thank you very much. Now you see why I chose toward others, if they make decisions that are in the best these two men to be the keynoters. With some minor long-term interests of others, if they are scientifically sound— variations, they both agree these issues are not athletic regardless of which way that decision cuts, for or against— contests that must result in a winner and a loser. They need that’s fine with me. I can live with that. to take into consideration the feelings of the people and come Dirk and I have a difference of opinion on grizzly bears in up with a consensus. We must get away from the head-banging the Bitteroot-Selway. I support the preferred alternative of contest with a winner and loser. the Fish and Wildlife Service. Why? Not because I’m delighted You used the roadless areas, Marc, as an example. Of the with the new challenges surrounding another management nine million acres in Idaho, much of that should be roadless area for grizzly bear recovery although I recognize that it is a and wilderness, but much of it should be put back into the legitimate goal for this country to have in mind. But we feel base and managed by professionals on the ground, as you

18 point out. I think it’s an error for decisions to come down from the top, and we hope the next administration will understand what you two men have said. A point on dam breaching. If you’re interested in Governor Kitzhaber’s comments on dam breaching in Eugene, Oregon, read his speech. When the headlines came out, they said, “Kitzhaber for Breaching the Dams.” Yes, he said that, but the key sentence in his entire speech was that the biggest threat that we should face up to is doing nothing. He basically said that to do nothing is going to be devastation. All we ask is that the next administration, whichever way it goes, will listen to these comments. I would observe that one man’s skill and training as a medical doctor and one man’s skill and training as an attorney, both tempered by the heat of political activity of election and re-election, have brought forth an understanding that we desperately need in the methodology that will be used in the future. So I applaud both of their efforts here this morning and again express my appreciation to them for being here. As you can see on your programs, a half-hour coffee break has been scheduled, but I’d like to have you back here in fifteen minutes. Thank you.

Refreshment Break

19 Policy After Politics How should the next administration approach public land management in the western states?

Presented by The Andrus Center for Public Policy at Boise State University Thursday, June 1, 2000 10:30 a.m. Morning Question and Answer Session Panel Participants: John A. Kitzhaber Governor of Oregon Marc Racicot Governor of Montana Norman Bangerter Former Governor of Utah Philip E. Batt Former Governor of Idaho Mike O’Callaghan Former Governor of Nevada

ANDRUS: We’re going to start now, and we’ll let the very creative in his or her outlook on how to achieve those stragglers take care of themselves, but I need to lower the standards and someone who is committed to a hands-on decibel level in here. involvement with the western political and community I want to thank two outstanding public figures who have leadership in making those decisions. truly been tempered by fire. Not only have they survived, RACICOT: I couldn’t disagree with that in any way. but, if you look at their approval ratings in the states that Ultimately, you need to focus on competence and experience, they represent, they’re banging right up there around the 80th and if you can find a person who can fill the bill in that respect, percentile and above in both states. From what you saw this then those are the fundamental decisions that ought to be morning, you can understand why. made. Really, there are probably political overtones to any We’re going to start with questions. We have about thirty selection because if you’re making that choice, you look to minutes, and then they have to be excused for a little bit and those with whom you think you can work, who are loyal, who will be back this afternoon. But I’m going to pull into play—I are faithful to a core set of principles. But in the end, to me, see Phil Batt is laughing—so I’m going to put him on the spit competence and experience have to dictate the order of the along with Norm Bangerter and Mike O’Callaghan. day. The first question: I’d like each of you to tell me how you ANDRUS: As I recall from your prepared remarks earlier, think they should pick the secretaries for cabinet positions you pointed out that partisanship should not be at the top of of Secretary of Agriculture and Secretary of Interior and what the concerns but you can’t ignore politics. Having been there criteria should be used in the selection of those men or myself, I agree with what you say. women. Let me read this question from the floor: “Both speakers KITZHABER: The criteria are simple. I should have veto used the term ‘good science.’ What does ‘good science’ mean power. Seriously, I think that for natural resource agencies, I to you?” wouldn’t go so far as to say it should be someone who lives RACICOT: To me, it means the best that we can produce, in the west, but I do think we need someone who understands information that’s tested in a searing fashion, and whichever the western perspective and who is committed to the high way the facts are ultimately disclosed, you live with the environmental and natural resource standards that this results. If you believe a solution ought to be based on sound country has traditionally held. It should be someone who is science—and I do and I think most people do—then you

20 commit yourself to a process. It’s not convenient science; it’s How do you provide a substitute for those particular people not just science that supports your particular perspective. who depend upon the river for the transportation of It’s a full body of information that is as up to date as it can commerce? There have to be alternatives, it seems to me. possibly be and that you’ve committed yourself to live with, We can discover a different method, but we can’t leave people regardless which way it cuts. I think that’s the fundamental in the wake of the values that the country somehow now requirement—that it be dispassionate, thoughtful, and the embraces and just simply disregard their legitimate interests. product of a process that people can accept as being It goes against fundamental notions of fairness, and if there ultimately capable of producing the best facts available under is one thing the people of this country understand, it’s the circumstances. fairness. So if we have a higher set of values today than what KITZHABER: I think there are two components. I would we had at the turn of the century, we have to find a way to agree with Marc, and most of our efforts in Oregon—the keep people whole and change what it is that we embrace as salmon plan and the eastern Oregon forest health plan— a set of values. By doing that, I think you bring about involve an interdisciplinary science team that reviews the fundamental fairness and a willingness to accept the decisions science. So I think having an independent scientific review is that are made. very important for implementing natural resource policy. KITZHABER: If I could just add two quick points. I think Having said that, it’s important for us to recognize also that this gets to the larger question about how we make progress it’s rare to have exact, complete science because we’re on these issues. Both Governor Racicot and I are in agreement learning more about the ecosystem as we go along. So what that—going back to the Columbia River ecosystem—once you science does is gives us a set of alternatives, each of which develop a recovery plan that’s the best that science can bears a certain amount of environmental and economic risk. dictate, the next step isn’t implementing the plan. The next Essentially, at the end of the day, these management decisions step is doing an economic impact study to determine what are going to be made in the political arena, based on the you would have to do to essentially mitigate the economic amount of environmental and/or economic risk, we’re willing impacts of that plan. The frustration I have with that debate to accept and based on a core set of values. Most of the is that whenever you start taking one element or another out successful land management approaches in the west are really of the equation because it has an economic impact, you never adaptive management processes where you review what get to the point where you can actually make a judgment you’re doing over time and make modifications, based on about what the cost of recovery is and whether we as a nation scientific evidence as it comes in. are willing to pay it. That’s really where the debate has to go. ANDRUS: For Governor Racicot, a question from the floor: The second statement I want to make about the way this “Why do we as a nation have an obligation to make whole question was framed is that I think we make a mistake in those who earn their livelihood extracting public resources?” labeling people as white hats or black hats in this debate. RACICOT: Because we have invested them with that There is nothing fundamentally wrong with natural resource possibility in the first place. The fact of the matter is that extraction. It has an impact on the environment, but it’s not they are there because of national policies that were bad people. It may be bad practices. I will use the Oregon instigated perhaps generations ago, but nonetheless, that’s cattle industry as an example. They are currently trying to the process we set about to create. As a result, I think we recall me. They are part of that 20%, I guess. The problem have an obligation if we’re going to disenfranchise those that we get into in this debate is that we look at people who people, precipitously in some instances, to find some way to make their livelihood on the land, and there is a ranching transition them to a position of safety and security. You don’t culture. These are good people who pay their taxes, raise simply just disrupt how they have come to make a living if their children, participate in their communities, and have a you find it unacceptable. Frankly, it’s against the very tenets lifestyle that is part of our culture and our heritage in the of the Bill of Rights. It says that you won’t in any way deprive west. You have to separate the people from the practices. people of their property without due process of law. So if The people are good people, but maybe their practices have you want to change things, then you have to keep people to change because we’ve learned more and are having a whole in the process. greater impact on the land. If you can separate that and talk For instance, if somehow we came to the conclusion in this to them about their practices, they are often willing to change country that the dams were going to be breached in the Lower those practices to achieve a common good. But if you paint Snake, how do you keep the transportation interests whole? them with a brush right off the bat, you polarize the debate,

21 and you don’t make nearly the progress you should be able various stakeholders have to find this kind of solution. I hope to make. this forum today will take a step toward recasting the debate RACICOT: May I add one more point? What we’re setting in that fashion. out to do with all of these debates is vindicate a set of values RACICOT: To me, the notion of bringing about sustainability that we have come to believe are more valuable than the on federal lands has to do with, first of all, recognizing that ones that are presently there. If that’s the decision we make, different lands should be used for different purposes at then we have to be willing to pay for the vindication of those different points in time. We have to recognize that multiple values. The rest of the country imposing their will upon those uses are appropriate on some of those lands although presently existing in a certain position or status shouldn’t exclusive use may be appropriate to others. We have to expect that all the economic impact is going to fall just upon recognize as well that there is a stewardship and trust those people. It’s we as a country that are saying that we responsibility never to damage irreparably the underlying want to see a different set of values protected and observed. asset. When you think about below-cost timber sales, for It seems to me that the entire notion of how we exist in this example, to me there is no such thing. It’s a cost of maintaining county, our entire body of law and way of living, is based stewardship in our national forests. If that’s a national value upon that notion of fairness. So if it costs a billion dollars to to be vindicated—and I believe that it is in order to maintain find an alternative, then that’s what we have to make a healthy forests and have cleaner air to breathe—and if it decision about in this country. Are we willing to pay it? If means keeping some forests productive and some in their not, then apparently the value isn’t nearly as valuable as we natural condition, then it requires us to focus on forest thought it was. If we are willing to pay for it, then I think stewardship, which coincidentally allows for sustainability. people are made whole, and we can move forward. So to me, you pick the objective, the value—forest ANDRUS: Thank you. We have Dr. Freemuth here with a stewardship—and if you do that and focus upon it in hand mike. I have plenty of written questions, but if some of thoughtful and scientific ways, you will inescapably end up you in the audience have questions, we’ll give you a shot. No in a position where you are maintaining a sustainable process speeches or I’ll turn it off. for people and resources because you will produce resource First question: How can the principle of sustainability, as for manufacturing and processing at the same time that you espoused by Governor Kitzhaber, be applied to federal land preserve the ultimate value. management. KITZHABER: The eastern Oregon project I mentioned is a KITZHABER: Well, it starts with how you define perfect example of that although it’s pretty embryonic. But sustainability. If you have a fundamentally different starting basically, if you let the mills, the small remaining mills in point, you ‘d get a different answer. I think sustainability is eastern Oregon, go out of business, you don’t have the often viewed from a strictly environmental standpoint, but I capacity to do the forest health treatments that are necessary view sustainability really as the intersection between to improve watershed and ecosystem health. So there’s a economic, social, and environmental needs. An example I situation where you’ve got to have the mills; the mills are can give you in Oregon is something called the Natural Step, important to improving the ecosystem; the ecosystem keeps which some of you may be familiar with. It’s a process some the mills alive, which then supports and strengthens the businesses are going through to figure out how they can use underpinning of eastern Oregon rural communities. more sustainable operations but use fewer raw materials in RACICOT: We pay to maintain the Lincoln Memorial. We the process and make the businesses more profitable. The don’t reap anything off the land on which the Lincoln alignment of these values really has the power of Memorial resides to be able to say that we are sustaining the sustainability. You have to start by viewing federal land Lincoln Memorial. This notion that somehow every piece of management and resource extraction as one of three federal or public land must produce enough of a return in fundamental legs and begin to recast that debate. What’s order to make it profitable is a notion that we have to let go. happened out here, very understandably, is that the debate It’s no longer capable of doing that, and we have a different over the management of federal lands, as I indicated in my set of values now. We’ve gone through this painful, agonizing speech, has viewed those three values as separate, unrelated process of shrinking the timber manufacturing in the Pacific entities, and they are not. They are also not mutually Northwest, and it has been agonizing. I go home to my logging exclusive, but you have to recast and reframe the debate in community in northwest Montana, and I look into the eyes order to unleash the creativity that this country has, and the of the people I grew up with. They are now 52 years old, and

22 they don’t know what they are going to do with the rest of we best speed up the bureaucratic process involved?” It takes their lives, and they are stricken with fear about what’s going so long to get a decision—and not just at the federal level— to happen to them. We’ve gone through that process, and it’s as to the management of the public lands. been very painful. We now ought to seize the opportunity, RACICOT: You trust people. At the local level. Dale with the industry right-sized, to engage them in the Bosworth is here. He’s the regional supervisor of Forest vindication of this value we claim to embrace as a country, Service Region I. I trust Dale Bosworth. He lives in a namely proper forest stewardship. If we do that, I think all community in the state of Montana. I would invest him, if I can be in a proper position. were the Chief of the Forest Service, with more authority to ANDRUS: When you look at sustainability, keep this in make thoughtful decisions about what’s occurring on the mind. I grew up as a lumberjack around slabs, slivers, and ground and give him the resources to be able to do that. I knotholes, and it used to be that for us to put out 40,000 wouldn’t, in Washington, D.C., bleed off his resources and board feet of rough-cut lumber a day, it would take ten or direct them toward initiatives that I’ve conceived on the other eleven people. Now, with the help of computers and side of the Potomac. What you have to do is trust the automation, they consume the same amount of wood fiber professionals. I don’t want to attribute what I’m going to say with three or four people. So sustainability of the wood fiber in any way to Dale Bosworth because he hasn’t said this to is one thing, but it’s almost impossible with the same amount me, but I’ve talked to a lot of people in the Forest Service, an of wood fiber to sustain the economic viability of the labor historically proud agency with great professionals, who are force. Those things have to be understood also. engaged in our communities and fused into the fabric of our RACICOT: If I could offer just one quick thought. We communities and whom we trust. They are absolutely manage state lands in Montana for forest products, my demoralized because they no longer have the ability to be recollection is about 800,000 acres. We’ve had 110 timber professionals and to make discretionary decisions. They may sales in the course of the last eight years since I’ve been there make discretionary decisions that cut contrary to my in the Governor’s office. Two of those 110 sales were viewpoint, but nonetheless, I trust them to make those challenged, and the court found something wrong with one decisions. So I think that we ought to devolve more authority, of them. We have Democrats and Republicans on the Land more resources to the local level—just as John pointed out Board—four Democrats, one Republican. Every one of those before when we talked about Enlibra—set national standards, timber sales has been unanimously approved, and I guess and let people that you pay good money make the decisions that’s a living, breathing life experience that suggests to me about what’s best for the land. that this can be done if we do it in the right way and set ANDRUS: Do you believe that the Chief of the Forest Service about to produce something more than winners and losers. should be a professional or a political appointee? Secondly, we have people come in and say, “We don’t want RACICOT: I think that there is obviously going to be some to see that part of state land logged because that’s where we inclination to consider someone who has at least exhibited look out our back window. That viewshed is important to us.” some faithfulness to a core set of principles, but I honestly We say, “Fine. Other than keeping it healthy, which means believe... there is a minimal amount of intrusion, no roads built into ANDRUS: I just threw that question out... the area, just simply an incursion to make certain that it’s RACICOT: I honestly believe that it should be a professional healthy and strong, we’ll sell you that viewshed. If it’s worth first. I have people in my cabinet who, when I asked them to that much to you—and there are are other people willing to assist me, said they didn’t vote for me and that they didn’t pay a price to log it—it ought to be a price you’re willing to belong to the same party. I appointed them nonetheless pay not to log it.” Frankly, we’ve sold viewsheds. We have to because I want competence first. They will make me look bad think differently than the way we’ve been thinking over the or good, depending upon their competence. So you always course of the last 50 or 60 years because there are people have to focus on professionalism and competence. who find that has an economic value that you’re willing to ANDRUS: I did the same thing. I would point out that’s pay for. So you keep it healthy, but you still generate income why your approval rating is probably 82%. John, would you for the school trust by not selling timber. So that’s one like to comment? example of how we have to look toward the future. KITZHABER: I think what Marc says is true. What we’ve ANDRUS: Following up on that is a question that says, “In run into on the Eastside Project is basically finding consensus the interest of timely public land-usage decisions, how can on sixty projects and being unable to move them very fast.

23 Part of that is due to the fact that some of them need another. But I clearly think that for those on the production additional federal money to make them economically viable. side of the issue, they understand precisely. We face real That’s not a subsidy to me; that’s an investment. Here’s a danger of compromising our production infrastructure in this case where natural resource extraction helps the country if we’re not careful, and we have to recognize that environment, so we need a budget to allow the companies to there are essential minerals and commodities that we have go in and do those treatments. That’s part of it. to produce. I think there are some in the environmental Secondly, a lot of the decision-making authority is held back community that do not have a full appreciation for that by the federal agencies centrally. There is a lot of latitude for particular concept, and they need to become more sensitive— discretion in terms of moving those decisions down on to the as we become more sensitive to their thoughts and concerns— landscape, which can be done without a statutory change. that in fact we cannot be left in a position as a country with There are administrative rules that can be modified to speed not being able to sustain ourselves sufficiently because we’re those up, so that really has to do with the trust issue. That unable to produce enough goods and services to keep us alive doesn’t mean getting rid of accountability, but it means and well and functioning and strong. moving those decisions down closer to the ground and holding No, we don’t want to be dependent on the Arab states people accountable for them. ultimately for essential components of our energy production Finally, there is a budgetary component to this, quite here in the United States. That’s a very good example. frankly. You do need people on the ground that work for the KITZHABER: I agree exactly with what Marc said. Just to U.S. Forest Service. You need people in NMFS and U.S. Fish use an Oregon example, the greatest threat to the agricultural and Wildlife to do consultations under the Endangered community in the state of Oregon is not lawsuits by Species Act, and we have asked the Secretary of Commerce environmentalists, it’s not a Democrat in the executive chair— and of Agriculture to make the Blue Mountain Demonstration although I’ve had trouble making that case—it’s demographics. Project a demonstration project within a demonstration It’s the 50,000 people who move into Oregon every year from project—that is, to also run, parallel to the forest health urban and suburban areas in other states to urban and demonstration, an effort to see how we can streamline, on a suburban Oregon. With the next census, you’re going to see pilot basis, making those federal decisions in a much more a shift in the political power from rural Oregon back to timely fashion to actually move the projects through. suburban Oregon, and these people, most of them, live and ANDRUS: John, do you have anyone with a question? We work in the city. They view eastern Oregon, the coast, have a county commissioner I’ve spotted down here. She southern Oregon as the place they go to recreate. They don’t made a point earlier that it’s not just states they should listen like clear cuts because they hurt the viewshed. They are to; they should also listen to county commissioners. I consider concerned about the use of chemicals and pesticides, and county commissioners to be a part of government at the local they have a view of natural resource industries that doesn’t level. No speeches, but if you have a question... reflect an understanding of the part they play in our larger COMMISSIONER: I’m a county commissioner, and I don’t economy. What the agricultural community has to do is build make long speeches. I want to ask about the self-sufficiency bridges with urban and suburban Oregon. They have to get issue. You named all of the other reasons for making people to understand the importance of what they do, and extraction people in rural communities whole in the process. they have to work to try to build that dialogue between urban/ Do you think it’s a value we hold that we should also be self- suburban and the rural economies. As Marc says, there is a sufficient? Like cattlemen, for instance. We actually eat beef. growing gap in understanding, and that results in polarization We use wood products. Should we have the self-sufficiency and these political battles. I think that will ultimately catch value included where we produce some of what we use? all of us on the same hook. RACICOT: Well, I think it is. Obviously, it’s not something ANDRUS: I’m going to give this gentleman an opportunity you can regulate or legislate, but I know, with my own children to ask a question. Then I’m going to let these two governors for instance, there is a huge gap in their understanding about off the hook because they have a meeting to go to at noon where food comes from. They tend to think it comes from the but will be back here at 1:30 PM. Between 11:30 and noon, I’m supermarket as a consequence of not being exposed to the going to improvise and put these three former governors on fundamental process that I was exposed to as a youngster. the spit and let them answer some of the questions before This is true as each generation evolves after another. There they make their presentations this afternoon, and we might is a certain amount of that understanding that is lost, one to have a little fun and a difference of opinion. I’ll see that you

24 get a written report of where they disagree with you or when we can’t go about doing that because we can’t get the they have been disrespectful to you or to anything you might consultation completed. So we’ve even offered to pay for it have said. and are paying out of state funds for the consultation to occur AUDIENCE: I’m John Howard, a county commissioner. I’m because the Fish and Wildlife Service doesn’t have the funds also chair of the Grand Ronde Watershed program that’s in to do that. the Grand Ronde sub-basin. In my capacity as chair of the This is not all an executive branch difficulty. In all fairness, Grand Ronde Watershed program, we’ve ushered through a poor George is here receiving all this advice and counsel and lot of projects in that basin, and we spend about $1.2 million thinking it applies only to the executive branch of annually on watershed projects. This summer, we’re removing government, but Congress is as much engaged in these issues a road from a creek bottom onto a county road right-of-way; as anyone in the executive branch of government. Quite we’ve taken out small dams on other rivers to allow for more frankly, they have a long way to go in terms of becoming fish passage. The question I’m leading up to is that on many responsible partners in this process, providing proper of our projects, we have problems through consultation with resources and not using the budgeting process strategically National Marine Fisheries. Last year, we missed about six to obstruct and retard and delay appropriate things that ought projects of in-stream work. We missed our road relocation to occur on the ground, not questioning every single decision. work. We have problems with the agency office here in Boise. They’re just as bad as anyone else on the other side of the We have a friendly office in Portland. Looking at a new Potomac, questioning what’s happening at the local level and Administration, Governor Kitzhaber, how could the new requiring every decision to be made inside the walls of administration solve some of the problems we have at the Congress, rather than trusting people at the local level to do local level with the consultation process? it. I’ve found that there is really much more tension brought KITZHABER: Well, three things come to mind. One I’ve about as a result of the executive and legislative branch design already mentioned, and it’s funding. You have to have enough of our system than there is between parties because people bodies out there to do the consultation process. Second, I want control. It’s very hard to trust other people. believe that there are ways to streamline that process. I don’t In my view, what happens is that the people in Congress, think we’ve really stepped back and taken a look at it to see who are charged with thinking—which is a function they whether we can improve it. It’s how we’ve done it for a quarter haven’t performed with a high degree on every occasion in of a century. I’m convinced that, if the objective were to my view in the first place—shouldn’t also try to seize upon streamline it, we could figure out some ways to do that. and try to steal away the legitimate functions of executing, Finally, I think that they next administration has to put people which are assigned to the executive branch. But they want to in these positions who are trying to get to yes. do everything because people want control. That’s the same It’s the difference between the OSHA inspector who goes problem you have with local government. The federal out to the site and says, “Let’s see how many citations I can government doesn’t want to pass authority to the state give on your project today,” versus the guy who says, “Well, government; the state government doesn’t want to pass here’s a problem. Let me work with you to fix it.” Part of it authority to the local government. Yet we all allege that we’re has to do with the mind set and the culture. So if the committed to the form of government closest to the people. instruction from the administration is to get to yes—don’t It’s true—that works the best. School districts, county compromise environmental standards but figure out how to commissions, city commissions—they work the best because get to yes—that’s coming down from the top, and if you have they live with the people they govern. They look into their adequate staff and you look at what you can do eyes on a daily basis and ultimately make decisions in the administratively, I think that’s the answer. best long-term interests of those involved. So Congress needs RACICOT: And not to have allegations thereafter that if discipline, too. you try to help people get to the right place for the right ANDRUS: We’re going to let these two gentlemen go now. reasons, you’ve sold out or compromised your principles in Don’t anyone leave their seats. I’m going to ask these former order to help someone. It’s absolute rubbish. It ends up, I governors to come up here with me, and we’re going to think, substantially undermining efforts by people to do the improvise a little bit and answer some of these questions. In right thing for the right reasons. We have highway projects the meantime, George Frampton, would you come over here and bridges we want to replace. We actually want to widen with me, please? George Frampton is in the current streams to create better flows in the state of Montana, and administration, and I said at the beginning that I wasn’t going

25 to have anyone from either political side involved in this, so piece of legislation, one that I hope will pass eventually, one he wants to make a comment to defend himself, not the that he was most responsible for shaping. Those are all things Administration. I told him he could as long as he didn’t inject that started out with a shared vision. politics, win or lose for your candidates. When I look down the road for the next four years, I see a George Frampton, Chair of the Council on Environmental number of pretty contentious issues that the next Quality in the executive branch of government. administration, whoever that is, is going to have to deal with. GEORGE FRAMPTON: I guess I’m the filler for the Some of them are areas in which we don’t yet have a shared transition here to the next part of the day. I’m sorry that vision, and we’re not going to get very far unless we do. One Marc Racicot had to leave because I wanted to echo a theme that I talked with Governor Racicot about earlier is the of his that resonated with me in my own experience, and question of how we improve forest health, how we reduce that’s his notion that good policy ultimately makes good the increasing risk of fire, how we build public support for politics. I appreciated the nice things Governor Kempthorne prescribed burning, how we find public support for said and his trenchant criticism of the roads, which I won’t silvacultural and mechanical treatments, and how we get the debate. money necessary to do that at the federal level. The issue of In my experience of about fifteen or twenty years, the one silvacultural treatment is very controversial in the thing I’ve learned is that, in approaching these very difficult environmental community. We have to have a shared vision complex contentious regional and national natural resource before we can have a successful strategy. issues, we’re unlikely to develop any successful strategy or The other is the Columbia River hydropower system. My any successful lasting strategy unless we’re able to start out own conviction is that there hasn’t been the kind of robust with some kind of shared vision about what it is that we hope public debate yet about the real choices, the real to achieve in the end. When I say a shared vision, I don’t consequences, the likely outcomes, the costs, who is going mean a consensus vision, but at least a vision that is shared to pay those costs, etc. That debate really hasn’t yet occurred, by a critical mass—the public, elected officials, people who so there really isn’t a public, shared vision of what we’re trying have a stake in the issue. By vision, I don’t mean a consensus to do and how we might go about doing it in the Columbia about the outcome, but at least a shared a vision about what Basin. I’m not talking just about dams; I’m talking about all the objects and the equities are that we’re trying to get to. If the things that will have to be done to protect salmon. If we’re we don’t start out there, we’re not going to develop a going to have successful strategies in the future, we’re going successful strategy on these issues. to have to first develop a shared vision of what it is we’re When I look back at the things this administration has been trying to do. involved in and that I’ve been involved in, all the strategies So that’s probably the single thing that I feel most strongly for the things I think have been successful have begun with a about as a result of the work I’ve done in this Administration. shared vision. On the question, for instance, of how to spend I think Governor Racicot really put his finger on it when he Exxon’s fine money from Alaska, we didn’t get anywhere until said, “If we have good policy, we’ll have good politics.” Thanks there was a shared vision between and the for letting me have the microphone. Clinton Administration about the things we needed to achieve. ANDRUS: I, too, am sorry that the two governors had the The Northwest Forest Plan—which is still contentious but at other meeting to go to. They’re going to miss Jay Shelledy’s least solved a problem—began with a shared vision that we speech at noon today. He’s an abusive, direct, caustic, had to reduce the timber harvest but we had to have a informative, humorous, rotten—nice fellow that you’re really sustainable timber harvest. going to enjoy. I’ve known him for a long time or I would not The Everglades Restoration is another example of what I heap that kind of abuse on him. think is a successful strategy because it began with a shared First of all, these three men have all served in the Western vision: provide restoration of natural resources, provide Governors’ Conference. Do you see a role for the western water to the cities, provide a viable future for the sugar governors in the next policy-after-politics debate? industry. The work that some of us have done with then- GOVERNOR NORM BANGERTER: Obviously, the governors Senator Kempthorne to try to develop a different way to keep will play a role and the next Administration will listen—but but make more effective the Endangered Species Act, to make will they hear? Since the founding of the Republic, we’ve dealt it work on private land, and to make it more acceptable with regionalism and economic issues, so the role the western resulted in a piece of legislation that is really a centrist reform governors play will depend much on the quality of those

26 people and their ability to articulate the issues. It will also be much facilitated if we leave our prejudices behind us and depend somewhat on the desire of the administration to really talk openly and honestly about the subject. I think Governor go down to the foundations and learn how to build policy Racicot talked about it pretty well when he said he is willing from the bottom up instead of imposing it from the top down. to accept some solutions that may not please him personally So I’d say, maybe. if they are arrived at honestly. I think that’s where we need GOVERNOR MIKE O’CALLAGHAN: There may be a role to to be. play. It will depend on who is on the advisory groups these O’CALLAGHAN: I found out when working, for instance, candidates have that are working on western problems. I think for the federal government when I was regional director for that when you put together a group that is going to advise the Office of Emergency Planning that the best federal/state you, you not only include the center of the road, but you relations I had with Governor Reagan was when I presented need the extremists in there also—those that would like to him a check from the federal government. Did he take it? He use and abuse the land and those who don’t want to touch it. took it and asked for more. It handled such things as the Santa You need them so you know what you’re dealing with. I don’t Barbara oil spill. He was a very pleasant man, and we got think you can make policy by everyone sitting down and along very well. agreeing. For instance, it’s very easy for all of us to agree Later on, as fellow governors, we talked about a lot of these that we ought to have these nice things. issues. I had a sidekick named Tom McCall, who used to help I was involved in federal/state relations in the federal me in those arguments. Over all, a lot of it just came back government. I was chairman of the Intergovernmental time and time again to what appeased the people in his state. Relations for the Federal Executive Board in San Francisco. I You work for the people in your state, but somewhere along went with the Flying Feds in the 1960’s all over the west to the line, you have to sit down and reach these people by work on federal/state relations. Later on, I had the listening to them. On the other hand, we have to start treating opportunity to bring Job Corps Conservation camps into most the conservation people from our states and from the federal of the states. In fact, State Senator Andrus helped put one government with the respect that they deserve. These people here in Idaho. I was able to put one in that had a racial mixture are out there; they’re citizens; they’re ours. when Orval Faubus was governor of Arkansas by sitting down We had an incident in Elko, Nevada that got way out of and having dinner with him one night. So all these things can hand. It involved the abuse of power by a state grand jury be done, but what we usually wind up doing, when it’s all and mistreated the people, the work of conservation, the said and done, is we’ll start to solve single problems. I’ve Forest Service, and also the state, so we have to watch what seen it happen time and time again. A single problem has we’re doing. We can have disagreements, but it cannot get to been solved, but the philosophy doesn’t change. Until the the point where it becomes bitter, and it cannot destroy the philosophy changes, we’ll go down the same road we’ve been very thing we’re looking for: a consensus or a method at least before. to agree or disagree pleasantly. ANDRUS: I’ll ask Phil to jump on this next question because BANGERTER: We get together in these groups, and the collaboration/consensus is good, but how do you prevent agenda is that we’re going to solve the problems for the future. those who don’t want it or see no personal advantage in it The facts are that we’ve been doing that for 200 years in this from wrecking a solution that’s achieved through that process. republic. We’ll find ourselves in these kinds of discussions How do you stop the extreme sides that Mike talked about, ad infinitum. the ones who want it all their way? Do we ignore them? How I solved every problem that Utah ever had though there do we get around them? Phil, do you have an idea? are some who think there are still some problems out there. GOVERNOR PHIL BATT: Well, you’re being unfair to me It reminds me of the beginning of World War II. I was a young as you usually are because you know I have a limited boy, and my older brothers were going off to war as were my inventory of thoughts on this or any other subject. I was cousins, and one of my cousins was asked, “Are you going to planning on doing that this afternoon. go make the world safe for democracy?” He said, “No, we The theme all morning has been that we have to talk already did that. We’re going to do something else this time.” rationally about these problems instead of from a political That’s really the kind of thing we’re in. You have to recognize basis or a vested interest basis. We’re all guilty of it. The that you always have to deal with these issues. It goes to the federal government is guilty of it. State governments are; people who are willing to listen to all the voices. businesses are; politicians are. The true accomplishment will As Mike suggested, you have to have the extremes. A very

27 conservative legislator came to me one day and said, “I’m example of me in my youth, saying, “The three R’s of resource not going to run again.” I said “Why not?” He said, “I never management are rape, ruin, and run.” The trouble is that you get my way.” I said, “We can’t afford to let you get your way, deal with some of these old people who have been with you but we need your voice.” That’s really the thing we’re talking and around you for many years. Mike and I were both elected about; we’ve got to have the voices, and we’ve got to recognize in 1970 to our respective posts as governor. No, there is no that we’re not wise enough to resolve every issue, but we help for some representatives and senators from various must be willing to address every issue. The challenge in our states. I dare not name any of them. political system is that we make it impossible sometimes for OK, one question here. “If keeping people whole is good, politicians to think they can do that. The way you get past will that include the American Indian and their practice of that is to figure out that the issue really becomes more salmon fishing?” important than the participants and the major players. They’ll BANGERTER: I have a little trouble with the blanket survive all of us. That’s the issue you have to think of if you implication of making people whole because everything in want to think long range. our governmental policy, everything in our business BATT: Governor? communities has moved to the point where people are not ANDRUS: Your Eminence? kept whole. When I was a boy, people got a job, stayed in BATT: Glad you got it right. Did you ask about the that job, and retired from that job. That isn’t the same effectiveness of the Western Governors Association? I would anymore. I don’t know what the statistics are, but seven or like to comment on that because I had experience as governor eight or ten jobs will be the lot of the average person. I think with both the Western Governors and the National Governors you can never say we can make them whole. As you pointed Associations. I can tell you there is absolutely no comparison, out, we can process a lot more timber today with a lot less both in proposals and in effectiveness, because the western help than we could before. That in itself doesn’t change the governors are willing to leave the politics out of it and look ecosystem. It changes the labor force. Do we have to have at the mutual concerns of the west. That’s not true on the policies that go to retraining and helping people make that national level. The National Governors Association is almost adjustment? I think that’s a very legitimate and purposeful entirely a political exercise. So I think that’s an example of thing to do. But to say that everybody that’s disturbed by how we can cut beyond the politics, beyond the vested some change in our society or economy should be made 100% interests, and try to get some solutions. The western whole —I don’t think you can really do that. governors are really good at it. BATT: I would agree with that pretty much, but I would ANDRUS: That’s a very valid point, and I’m glad you made say that dam breaching is an example of a very dramatic and it. That has gone on for a long time. Those of us that live in deliberate upheaval, one where I would be inclined to agree the west, men and women alike, are a different breed of cat with Marc that we must make a comprehensive review of who from those that you see back east. We’re willing to settle our is damaged by that and pay them off. own problems. ANDRUS: On that note, if you want to have lunch, your Let me ask one question, and then we’re going to break name tag will get you in. We’ll reconvene in there for lunch. and go to lunch. “Is it productive for senators and representatives to use phrases like ‘War on the West,’ and Lunch break can the governors tone them down?” No. It happens every election year. When I was Secretary of the Interior, that’s what I was met with. For example, in the Fruitland Mesa project in , the cost/benefit ratio was .38 to 1. For every dollar invested, you got 38 cents in return. It was on the list not to be constructed. The headline in the Denver paper read, “War on the West.” Every election year, you’ll hear that. You’ll hear “Don’t step on me” and all of those trite phrases. O’CALLAGHAN: How about “Rape, ruin, and run”? Where did that come from? ANDRUS: I coined that phrase. That was an outstanding

28 Policy After Politics How should the next administration approach public land management in the western states?

Presented by The Andrus Center for Public Policy at Boise State University Thursday, June 1, 2000 Luncheon Addressed by: Jay Shelledy Editor,

ANDRUS: Earlier today, I abused our luncheon speaker a dollar carousing and partying?” He said, “No, I gave up that little bit simply because I’ve known him for many years. He’s lifestyle long ago.” I inquired again, “Well, are you going to an outstanding journalist. He wrote some rather spend this money on the Idaho Lottery or gamble it away in inflammatory, inaccurate pieces about me when I was in Nevada?” He said no, he no longer gambled. I said to him, public life. He never caught me with my hand in the cookie “Look. I’ll give you $10 if you come home with me so I can jar because I could never find it, but he did abuse me a lot of show Sue what happens to someone who doesn’t drink, party, times on decisions I made that he thought were mistaken. He or gamble.” Well, that sort of sums up Utah, Governor. was wrong. It is an honor and something of a milestone to be asked by So I brought him here today. Jay Shelledy is the editor of Governor Andrus to speak today. It’s been 25 years since I the Salt Lake Tribune, a very experienced and prominent last covered him as a reporter, and he just started speaking member of the journalistic fraternity, and I’ve been told that to me three years ago. he is number one on the list to be appointed to the Lottery One of the ironies about a formal speech like this is that Commission in the state of Utah, if and when the opportunity you come up with the title for the program long before you arises. write the speech. In the newspaper business, we do it just Ladies and gentlemen, our luncheon speaker today, Jay the opposite. We write the story, then craft the headline. Shelledy. Neither process, it turns out, guarantees a correlation. In the JAY SHELLEDY: Thank you, Governor Andrus. I’m present instance, however, my text follows the title, “This impressed with the turnout that you had at your conference Land is My Land.” this morning. As I looked through the room, about 70% were In drafting this talk over Memorial Day weekend, I came interested in the land-use issues. The others were body up with a new spin on the old definition of optimist versus guards. pessimist. The Legislature sees the water as half full. The I appreciate this opportunity to talk with you today and to Governor sees the same glass half empty. Environmentalists bring you greetings from the state of Utah where the view the tumbler as not nearly as big as it needs to be. The Legislature currently is debating whether to change the state feds see the glass and say, “Hey, what are you doing with our motto from “Our Jesus is Better than Your Jesus” to “Our water?” National Monument is Bigger than Your National Monument.” Governor Andrus told me there wouldn’t be any guidelines Governor Andrus asked me to speak here today, and he but that I should refrain from bashing bureaucrats. I said, also asked me how things were going in Utah. Well, that’s “Oh sure; don’t worry.” He said everyone would be listening kind of hard to explain, so I might do it this way. The other to rational, reasoned words of wisdom in the morning, and day I was walking from the Tribune building to the First could I provide the other side of the coin at lunch. Security Bank to see whom that venerable institution had So. A state attorney general, an editor, and a Secretary of gotten in bed with that week, and I ran into this out-of-work Interior were simultaneously sentenced to the guillotine. The person, wandering the streets. No, it wasn’t Norm Bangerter. first to be executed was the Attorney General. She was led to He asked me for a dollar, and I asked him if he was going to the platform and blindfolded, and she put her head on the use my dollar to buy a drink. He said, “No, I don’t drink liquor block. The executioner pulled the lanyard, but nothing at all.” So I asked him, “Well, are you going to spend this happened. To avoid a messy class-action lawsuit, the

29 authorities allowed the attorney general to go free. Next was initial seaboard states located the capitol halfway between the editor. He put his head on the block, and the lanyard was Vermont and Georgia. That was smart for the original club pulled. Again, nothing happened. Everyone thought, of course, but not visionary. As our nation moved westward, the seat of it was divine intervention, and he was freed. Finally, the government became more distant and more distrusted. It is Secretary of Interior put his head on the block. As he lay there, no coincidence either that nearly all modern non-religious he looked at the lanyard and said, “Hey, wait. I think I see revolutions and revolts over farm foreclosures, taxation, gun your problem.” controls, public land policies—not to mention the rise of the But enough of this frivolity because, with every federal militia—have their genesis west of the Mississippi River. agency, every environmental group, every state, every Out west, we tend not to appreciate federal overseers. It rancher, and every resource industry at shovel’s point, yelling, just goes with the territory, most especially when it comes to “This land is my land,” it really is not a laughing matter. While public lands management. Like guns and pickups, it’s a the tug of war over federal lands is as complex as it is fierce, western thing. We believe it’s our land, not America’s. the bottom line revolves around stewardship, state versus Proximity equates with greater proprietorship. But, in fact federal, and it won’t be long before the private sector and force of law, people east of the Mississippi have as much seriously knocks at the door, looking for a crack at running say over Idaho’s federal lands as Idahoans. They cast covetous some limited shows. eyes on Utah’s breathtaking beauty, Montana’s landscapes, So who does it better? That’s the issue. Let’s imagine this and Oregon’s gorgeous lakes. They want a piece of the sort of scenario in resolving the question of who can best heritage. You cannot blame New York City residents for manage public lands. Let’s imagine that we released a rabbit wanting to preserve chunks of New Mexico and Wyoming. in a large forest and challenged a state department of natural Remember, the light at the end of any New Yorker’s tunnel is resources, the U. S. Interior Department, and a private New Jersey. management company to utilize its best method and brain That easterners, with their political punch and sense of trusts to capture the wild rabbit. The state natural resource superiority, have sway over our land can seem unfair. personnel placed informants throughout the forest, hid Conversely, the billions of dollars derived over the years by microphones under rocks, and placed motion detectors western states and private businesses from their federally- behind the bushes. Nothing. After three months, the state owned backyards may seem a bit unfair to residents of Indiana concludes that rabbits do not exist. The Interior Department and Pennsylvania. The system isn’t broke, nor is the field so goes in and, after two weeks of no leads, conducts a controlled badly tilted. The problem rests in the administration of these burn that torches the entire forest and kills everything, lands, and that, I trust, is what you’re all gathered here to including the rabbit. Interior makes no apologies. After all, discuss. the rabbit had it coming. So the private firm goes in, and in It’s not so much that we feel that federal agencies are just a mere two hours, comes out of the woods leading a badly inherently incompetent managers. Quite the contrary, beaten bear by the ear. The bear is yelling, “OK, OK, I’m a although given recent events, it appears that you can’t be rabbit, I’m a rabbit.” It’s silly, but so is focusing on who does trusted with matches. The surprising fact is that a majority of the job rather than on how can we do it better and more westerners do not mind preserving large parcels of land. They cooperatively. do, however, take frequent umbrage to who always ends up Frustrated federal agencies often ask themselves, “Why are the landlord and how this landlord derives the ownership. westerners such obstructionists, such colossal pains in the Exhibit One. Utahns woke up one day in 1996 and found ass? Are we not all Americans?” Well, indeed we are, but this nearly 2,000,000 acres designated as the Grand Staircase- western tug of war with the federal government is not so Escalante National Monument. Employing the big bang theory strange or so unusual in America’s history. Rebellion against of creation, the Clinton Administration invoked, Cecil B. what is felt to be oppressive government is wound into the DeMille style, the 1906 Antiquities Act, and—poof—let there very fabric of our nation. From the start, Americans have be tourists. saw what he had created, and he was distrusted governing from afar. The very theme of this nation’s pleased. birth was steeped in protest against distant decisions. The This Antiquities Act is not the latter-day franchise of the British must have asked the same question. “Why are those Clinton Administration. It has been used by nearly every colonists such pains in the ass? Are we not all Englishmen?” president since its enactment, most especially Republicans It was no accident that, after the Revolutionary War, the Roosevelt and Eisenhower and Democrats Wilson, Clinton,

30 and Carter. Further, the 100+ national monuments created loans, and below-market fees, underwritten by taxpayers of by this act over the years have been accompanied by stunning all fifty states. bi-partisan support although Congress did hermetically seal We perceive ourselves as heirs to the pioneer tradition, Alaska and Wyoming from future consideration. the successors of Lewis and Clark. We want our lives to be The process that created Grand Staircase, as you well know, free of anything not of our own making. Our politics in the did not sit well in Utah. I’m not simply referring to the last two decades has been defined largely as what we are Congressional delegation’s colossal snit over not being not. Our Congressional delegations are paragons of consulted ahead of time. These five partisan obstructionists conservative virtue, who rail against big government but who would not have worked in tandem with the Clinton are always quick to protect the home base: Mountain Home, Administration to create a public water fountain, let alone a Hill, Nellis, Goldwater, Fort Lewis, Fairchild, Los Alamos, reservation the size of Massachusetts. It was Utahns in general Umatilla, Dugway, and the like. who were miffed. So politically estranged from the What bothers us most is Clinton’s seemingly uncontrollable Administration were our five members of Congress that they and unilateral appetite for hugging trees and stringing learned of this monument-to-come in the newspaper. The restrictive fences in an effort to become the new Teddy political gates were down, the timing lights were flashing, Roosevelt. If nothing else, you must admire his scope. Clinton but the train just wasn’t coming. has paid more attention to preservation than any other Clinton wants his legacy to be his western public lands president since TR. Few stones, logs, or snowmobiles are policies and creations. He probably will get his wish. Senator being left unturned. of this great state sneers that Clinton’s goal “is Taking his cue from the boss’s play book or perhaps the merely a transparent and futile attempt to erase the tarnish other way around, the green-booted Interior Secretary got of impeachment.” Craig says, “History will not write about more creative as he wearied with endless negotiations and Grand Staircase and the like; it will write about Monica legal hassles with members of Congress and governors more Lewinsky.” The man obviously does not have the least wired to resource industries than to their constituents. Having understanding of history nor does he read polls, and he seems to deal with the likes of the Chenoweths, the Cannons, the to ignore the public’s traditionally short attention span. He Gibbonses, the Burnses, the Gerringers, and the Symingtons— seems oblivious to the fact that historians do not spill much all of whom, I’m convinced, rode a Tilt-A-Whirl too many ink over one-night stands—or Senatorial dilettantes, for that times as youngsters—would send any reasonable person over matter. the edge. Part of the west’s current public lands dilemma is that it is So Clinton and Babbitt just up and did it with the Grand out-populated, out-voted, and, in the parlance of the west, Staircase-Escalante National Monument. What place could out-gunned in the seat of government. We lack the be more fitting and deserving than Utah, a state with millions Congressional giants of two decades ago, powerful voices that of federal acres, a state that has been dragging its feet on compensated for their historic lack of horsepower with trust, wilderness designation for fifteen years, a state in which respect, and sway: the Frank Churches, the Mike Mansfields, Clinton came in third in his 1992 presidential bid, behind Ross the Barry Goldwaters, the Scoop Jacksons, the Tom Foleys, Perot? There is a price for political voyeurism. the Mark Hatfields, and the Ted Cannons, to name only a That said, a majority of Utahns today accept the monument, few. Their coordinated, effective resonance has been replaced and a goodly number even welcome it. But we are still all too often today with single-interest squeaking. somewhat sore over the process. Like our neighbors, we don’t There is a sign in a Jackson Hole bar that reads, “Where cotton to federal bureaucrats, perhaps stereotypically and the east ends and the west begins, the whining stops.” Would surely unfairly. After all, it is only 90% of the bureaucrats that it were so. Fulminations notwithstanding, Clinton’s legacy who give the rest a bad name. is and probably will be environmental preservation. That The joke going around Utah as the dust settled on Grand possibility has conjured up fear and loathing among Staircase was: How do you tell the difference between God westerners where the thought of rugged independence and ? The answer: God doesn’t think he is Bruce persists although, like the family farms and cowboys, it is Babbitt. largely a myth, lore than lingers in spite of the fact that life It may also seem to us that Clinton and Babbitt see their on the range is largely on the dole. Raised crops, mined watch as a kind of payback time against previous minerals, and herded cows occur because of federal grants, administrations and western Republicans in general, who

31 have been inordinately beholden to grazing, mining, and be resolved by taking federal title to the earth in order to recreational interests and intransigent on environmental protect it or change it, gradually but inevitably we will re- issues. So he loosed upon us the Wicked Witch of the East, create the same overriding tyranny Americans have always Kate McGinty, impresario of the Administration’s opposed. Central government that is everyone’s landlord is environmental strategy, fueled with a philosophy that, like colonialism in a new form. the burned rabbit, they had it coming. I specifically plead this case today to Governor Kitzhaber Yet Bruce Babbitt is no Beltway bureaucrat. The irony is he of Oregon and Governor Racicot of Montana, who obviously was raised on an Arizona ranch, as close to the earth as any heard a little bit of what I was going to say and left, because of us and, it would seem, close enough to the people to be my bet is that one of them will end up the next Secretary of elected governor twice. Babbitt and his boss are running out Interior. Unless of course, Pat Buchanan is elected, and then of office time, but as they scurry through the west, casting it will be Helen Chenoweth. covetous eyes on designations, they are learning. Creation The Republican and Democratic Parties have chosen for recently, under the same Antiquities Act, of the 1500-square presidential consideration a Texan out of New England stock, mile Parashant Monument to the south of the Grand Canyon who speaks of “compassionate conservatism” because neither was not a surprise to that state. Babbitt worked with state New England nor Longhorn conservatism can be leaders for more than a year, urging them to do it legislatively. compassionate unless you say it is. On the other side of the The legislative effort crumbled, unfortunately, so Clinton took ticket is a believer, fashioned from the middle of the last executive action. There were angry Arizona politicians, to be century, who thinks Uncle Sam is the only game in town. I sure, but the citizenry itself did not end up in a collective want Governor Kitzhaber to know that the west simply won’t dither. Work at the Craters of the Moon in Idaho also appears continue to accept a continued federal padlocking of its lands to be going quite smoothly although a case could be made at the present scale. And I want Governor Racicot to know that nobody gives a damn about lava beds. that national polls show that traditional Republicanism is out Apparently, six more designations are to come. If the pride of sync with Americans when it comes to environmental of authorship can be extended, most westerners, most of concerns. whom would otherwise be classed as social conservatives, Any long-term resolution of public lands issues demands can accept and, indeed, might even desire additional sanity. It is not rational for someone in the seat of government protected open spaces. 2000 miles away to decide on a daily basis who mows the The population of the intermountain states has increased lawn and turns on the sprinklers. Nor is it rational for the 25% in the last decade, probably more. Those new residents people who own the federal land, the American taxpayers, are changing the picture. They increasingly want certain lands to subordinate the public interest to the greed of those who protected because most of them moved here for that reason. may live closest to a given chunk of federal real estate or run They don’t see many other states as being capable of of water. protecting those lands. Western states, after all, do not have Public lands management demands respect for and loyalty a great track record of thoughtful, long-term stewardship of to the people. Damn near every member of the Congress from public lands. the Great Basin and Inland Northwest is deeply beholden to It is time we stopped being the willing quartermaster for the public resource industries: the timber industry, the mining every industrial user of natural resources and public lands companies, the oil companies, the food processors, and the and that we demand greater shared governance of federal utilities. But in the 21st Century, we had all better be lands. Future federal resource acquisitions must be environmentalists in the sense that we know what happens accomplished carefully and smartly. According to one so- when we abuse the earth, the air, and the water. What we called “wise-use” think tank, the Political Economy Research don’t know is how much more these elements can take. Center in Bozeman, every third acre of land in the United By the same token, we also must be captains of enterprise States today is under federal control. In recent years, the because we know that knowledge can and does make us Center estimates, that figure is growing at the rate of 800,000 prosperous and healthy when we know how to use intangible acres a year. Some argue that figure might be high, but resources. The CEO of a resource industry is not, by nature, a whatever the exact number, it is at least a yellow-flag trend despoiler of land. A farmer is not just a consumer of Simplot and probably the underlying reason why you’re all gathered. fertilizer. No modern rancher gets an erotic thrill from cows If the ways in which we use and don’t use land continue to trampling a creek bed.

32 If we can move past the morally righteous bastards who becoming less and less significant in the national picture. seem to have taken over the foyer, if we can find a quiet From The Atlas of the New West comes this warning: “The room where we can do some drafting, 1787 Philadelphia-style, idea of the west as a remedy for individual and national ills is we could, I suspect, find common ground and policies that running head-on into a visible and unmistakable fact: the west work. I trust that is your goal. is badly in need of remedies itself.” Or take this from Francis Bottom line, though, is that state government isn’t fully Stafford, the former Catholic Archbishop of Denver: “In the trusted in this area yet, nor do states have a process where last century, the western slope functioned as a resource the stakeholders can sit down and work out a public solution colony for lumber and mining interests. Those scars will be in a public place. Lincoln said it 140 years ago. “We must think with us for generations. We cannot afford to stand by now as anew and act anew.” I will add...”and swiftly.” the culture of a leisure colony, like the walled communities Thinking creatively and in a timely manner is not in the that dominate many American suburbs, takes its place.” genes of a career federal bureaucrat. Too many of them hold Because of their changing natures, western states must have to the theory that while the early bird gets the worm, it is the a bigger role in that new thinking, in the new public lands second mouse that gets the cheese...am I going too fast? Can policies of the 21st Century, and in their own destinies. That states do better? I don’t know, but it’s your chance. will require a paradigm and torturous shift on the parts of Also complicating solutions is too much hand-holding. In state governments and legislatures as well as the west’s the federal-vs-state debate over federal land management Congressional delegations, which heretofore have engineered are new-age problem-solving systems: holistic management, decades-long debates, probably just filibusters, over most watershed coalitions, resource advisory councils. All are significant preservation proposals. based on a loosely-defined principle of consensus-building. To gain a role, the states must first show a willingness to It is inherently flawed. A cultural mind-set rooted in perceived ignore antiquated views and to embrace meaningful birth rights cannot somehow be softened or molded to preservation. There are good signs along these lines. compromise. Compromise is viewed as defeat—or at best a Republicans in Colorado, Arizona, and Utah, among others, tie—by groups that range from the Farm Bureau to the Sierra have crafted an unprecedented numbers of bills calling for Club. To compromise on a cherished landscape or resource significant conservation of public lands. At least one bill would is cowardice to them. Besides, if everybody got along, what establish a national monument. would the news media write about? Next, governors, legislators, representatives, and senators Senseless consensus-building sometimes is the easy way must wean themselves away from natural resource special out for federal land managers who don’t want to do their interest, be they extreme environmentalists or big business. jobs. Indeed they ought to listen—and listen carefully—to the Represent the majority of the state’s residents, not a small arguments, to weigh and weigh carefully the evidence from town that hasn’t kept up with the times. Represent the future, science, then to make a decision and take the heat. Don’t not some industry that is on its way out. You must leave those congratulate yourselves if all sides are foaming at the mouth special interest brothels in which some of you now wallow. over the decision. It only means you have failed on all fronts. You must respond to the articulated consensus philosophy Any political initiative designed to bring attention and of your constituents. You must put the future of your state even-handed treatment of western land issues ought to be above re-election. Accept the tenuous nature of your office based in reality. The reality is that the power brokers in the and its brief but spectacular opportunity for leadership and Beltway sky boxes have little use for the interior west, outside legacy. of its making a spectacular backdrop for announcing major Many of the states are ready for additional shared conservation initiatives, which cause the west to talk responsibilities. What might they be? Well, for openers, why secession and the east to swoon with praise over the can’t each state handle its own wild horse situation. Surely preservation of our heritage. they would be more creative and competent in this effort The west, lacking in political punch, war chests, and votes, than the BLM has been. Wild horses are treated like nuclear is left only with the federal porridge for its birthright. It’s waste, shopped state to state, and transported in the dead of becoming clear, however, that its natural resources and wide- night. open frontier, which once fueled the nation’s expansion, are For the federal bureaucrats in the audience, my primary no longer necessary in a knowledge-based economy. admonition to you is stop competing with each other. Economies based on exploitation of natural resources are Intramural federal jealousy, turf-protecting, and sabotage are

33 wasteful, self-defeating, and scandalous. You have enough Fish and Wildlife Service might be Dade County. No enemies without this inter-agency bickering and back- reflection on the Service—only on what’s needed. stabbing. Take this as gospel: the public does not notice nor Other agencies ought to be placed where it makes sense, give a tinker’s damn what patch you wear on your shoulder. and frankly, it doesn’t make sense to put anything in What is noticed is what you do or don’t do. We need a the interior into the exterior. coordinated, consolidated land-use policy that can only come • If heads of divisions need to testify before Congress, to pass when all natural resource and land management is let them travel to Washington, D.C., the same as they under one roof. That roof has to be the Department of Interior, travel now to the far reaches of the nation to oversee and I hope we will rename it something that makes sense, operations. Or make Washington, D.C. come out here like the Department of Natural Resources, if we really want to talk to them. to get clever. That most especially includes the U. S. Forest • Allow Interior to authorize multi-year budgets, up to Service as well as oceanic resource management, some of three-year spans, when they relate to natural resource which currently resides with Commerce. or landscape management functions. Nature does not It makes as much sense for forest management to be under conform to fiscal years. Agriculture, with its corn and beets, as for banks to put braille • Except for matters related to safety and health—for on the keys of their drive-up ATMs. The Forest Service left example, fire, water, and air standards issues—the Interior to become part of Agriculture in reaction to the management philosophy ought to push the decision- Teapot Dome scandal in Wyoming three-quarters of a century making authority as close to the local level as possible. ago. I think they have served their time. • Require decision-makers to work in an area outside the Put national forests under the same umbrella as national Beltway for at least one month a year. Likewise, you parks. I don’t care what Weyerhaeuser or Boise Cascade or might invite the Beltway news media to ride along and Potlatch or whatever they hell they are called today think. I see what America is really like. don’t care if some Assistant Secretary of Agriculture in charge Those six or seven ideas are simple suggestions although of political patronage is losing bladder control over the very the insecure and the kept will find a plethora of reasons why thought. I don’t care. You ought not to care either. They should they are not plausible. Those committed to a better future be the last people that are given any consideration on this. might take such impractical offerings and retool them into Marriage is nature’s way of preventing people from fighting bold, imaginative solutions. with strangers. Just to touch on one painful example. The We are faced with President Clinton saying this land is my New Mexico fire represents really a lack of expertise on how land. The BLM is saying this land is my land. The Forest Service to administer a needed program. Why wasn’t the National is saying this land is my land. The Park Service is saying this Interagency Fire Center, the nation’s safest pyromaniacs, land is my land. Ranchers are saying this land is their land. called in to take charge of the controlled burn near Los States insist this land is our land. Mining, oil, and timber Alamos? It could have provided what was lacking: expertise industries all are saying this land is their land. on the ground. But there was no way that NIFC was going to Environmentalists are saying this land is their land. be allowed to show up the Park Service. Rivalries prevented And all along, I thought it was my land. anyone with enough smarts to suggest that with the Haines God must be saying: My God. This is not what I had in mind. Index at 6, it was not the time to start a forest fire. I can’t say I placed humans on earth to be good stewards of the land, it strongly enough: Lose your fiefdoms or lose the west. and what do I get? A 9-way tug-of-war. This is not good. You are gathered here to consider solutions, and I applaud Depression-era balladeer, Woody Guthrie, had it right when that and commend Governor Andrus for providing this annual he wrote: “This land is your land. This land is my land. From forum. In closing, let me provide half a dozen points for to the New York island. From the redwood forests possible discussion. to the Gulf Stream waters, this land was made for you and • The new Administration must appoint a Secretary of me.” Interior that understands the problems. If not Governor Find solutions that are in the best interest of the citizenry. Kitzhaber or Governor Racicot, then an aggressive, non- That’s what you, who are employees of the fedral government, dogmatic western governor. are paid to do. And that is what you elected officials swore • Consolidate all natural resource agencies into a before God Almightly you would do. renamed Department of Interior. These are exciting and challenging times. They will maroon • Decentralize this new Interior. The BLM headquarters the hesitant but inspire the brave. Good luck with those belongs in the west. The National Park Service ought to challenges. locate in a central location. The Forest Service should perhaps be in the northwest. A great place for the U. S. End of Session

34 Policy After Politics How should the next administration approach public land management in the western states?

Presented by The Andrus Center for Public Policy at Boise State University Thursday, June 1, 2000 1:30 a.m. Afternoon Session Panel Participants: John A. Kitzhaber Governor of Oregon Marc Racicot Governor of Montana Norman Bangerter Former Governor of Utah Philip E. Batt Former Governor of Idaho Mike O’Callaghan Former Governor of Nevada Jay Shelledy Editor The Salt Lake Tribune

ANDRUS: Welcome to the afternoon session of Policy after to Jay Shelledy or any of the others. Governor Batt. Politics. You may have noticed an easel with a petition out in BATT: We don’t want to mention our party too much the lobby. The people that are meeting out there simply want because we’re afraid we’ll take over the remaining 10% that to make certain that the appropriation for the Land and Water you have in the state. Conservation Fund matches the authorization on an ANDRUS: Yes, but domination has never been good in any annualized basis. If you’re interested in the Land and Water civilization. Conservation Fund money—I know we have some county BATT: We have an obvious interest in our natural commissioners here and some other state and federal resources, and the first half of the century, of course, we relied employees who participate in the utilization of those monies— almost totally on mining, timber, and agriculture to sustain you may want to stop by out there. They’re in operation. the economy in Idaho. Some excesses occurred in those days; Now let me move to the three former governors that we no question about it. We know that we have to use those have on the program. We’re going to try to accelerate this resources better. But in addition to those vested interest, we and get you out of this a little bit early. We’ve been moving also have a little more interest in states’ rights in the west right along. It’s been very stimulating, but I’d like to get to than in the other parts of the country. We’re very much the question and answer period with all six of these gentlemen interested in our guns and parental control and lack of after we hear whatever brief comments the three former interference from the federal government, perhaps more so governors have. Then they have the opportunity to ask the than most of the nation. current governors any questions that they have. Most of all, we’re interested in the things we need here. I’ll start here with Phil Batt, long time legislative friend Uppermost among those is water. Most of the west is desert and associate of mine. He belongs to that other political party, and arid country, so we’re very jealous about the use of our one of the two we can’t mention here today, but he and I water. have been known to get along on an issue or two. Governor It’s already been mentioned several times—and I agree Batt, former governor of the state of Idaho, make any totally—that political posturing needs to be ended in these comments you’d like, and then you’re free to pose questions discussions or throttled as much as possible so we can reach

35 some sensible solutions. I was interested in the comments ANDRUS: Thank you, Governor Batt. Next is Governor on dam breaching, and I want to make it clear to Dan Popkey, Bangerter from the great state of Utah. I would say, Norm, who almost wrote that I was in favor of dam breaching, that before we start out that Jay Shelledy made some while I admire Governor Kitzhaber very much—he is one of recommendations at the conclusion of his very stimulating the foremost politicians in speaking his mind regardless of remarks at lunch, suggestions that you might want to think the political consequences—I don’t think that the case has about because the questions will come up for the two been made yet.I have three questions on that issue: First, governors who were unable to be at the lunch. One related will it work? Will it absolutely work? I think the jury is still to the consolidation of natural resource agencies in one out on that. It would be a mistake of great magnitude to do it department, be it a renamed Interior. So think about following without its being effective. up on what Governor Batt said here. Second question: What will it cost? What would it actually BANGERTER: Well, I was glad that Jay made one good cost people? I don’t think we’ve come close to assessing the recommendation in his speech, and that was the consolidation entire economic impact of what dam removal would be. of the land agencies, which I think is a good issue. Third: If we meet the first two criteria, who is going to pay I want to take a little bit different tack. We have fought for for it? It would have to be Congress, and I think we’re a long 200 years, and we fought before that with England, under way from achieving that goal. our Constitution, to end this decision-making process. There I’d like to remark just a little bit on the Endangered Species was a lot of discussion, during the formation of our Act. I think we need to separate the two parts of that act. government, about the rights of the minority. That’s been a One regards the extinction of species, and that would include topic that ebbs and flows, and the rights of the minority are the salmon and the snails, etc. But the other merely talks best exercised when they become a majority. We all recognize about geographic dislocation as compared with historical that that’s the case. habitat, which would include the grizzly bears and the wolves. I spent the last three years of my life in the Republic of There is no limit to how far we can extend that type of South Africa, where I had a chance to observe at close hand reasoning if we want to put animals back in the habitat they the workings of that fledgling democracy and the challenges once occupied. Would we want to put buffalo back in all the that they face. Every time I think about it in those terms, it major cities of the midwest, including Idaho Falls and seems to me we don’t have very many problems compared Cheyenne? Maybe we ought to turn a few rattlesnakes loose to the challenges that they face. here in Boise. They used to be here. I’m not sure we did a But I’d like to refer to Nelson Mandela, who just terminated good thing when we brought the wolves back to Idaho to let his term as the first freely-elected president of South Africa. them eat our elk and the lambs and the calves, but that can His effort is one we can look to as an example of how you try be argued better than the relocation of the grizzlies, which in very difficult circumstances to lead a majority that had are incompatible with human activities to a great degree. been oppressed and held down for a couple hundred years. We’ve been accustomed to using our back country in a way He has exercised that majority strength, I think, with the that’s unrestricted by grizzly bears. Marc is awfully proud of greatest of care and the greatest intention to do the best that his grizzlies, and that’s good. I hope you keep them there. he could possibly do to build that country to a level that is I agree totally with both Governor Kitzhaber and Governor badly needed. So when I think about the problems of the Racicot that honest dialogue is needed. They are very good United States, I put them in that category. examples of it themselves, and I would be very pleased, Jay mentioned one other thing. He used the word depending on the political outcome of the presidential race, “secession” in his talk, and I think that referred to the fact if one of them does end up as our Secretary of Interior. They that some people do get up in arms about these things to the would be great. point that they really want to get out. My friend, Jim Hansen, I would hope that the new administration, whoever it might the congressman from Utah, tells the story of being in Kanab be, would make their appointments on the basis of expertise with John Seiberling, a very environmentally-oriented in the particular arena in which they would serve rather than Congressman from Ohio—part of the tire fortune, I presume— from political considerations. and during the course of his speech, John said, “You know, That’s the extent of my remarks, and I will be glad to southern Utah is beautiful enough that it all ought to be a participate in the discussion. With that, Governor, it’s all I national park.” Jim said, “I followed up those remarks by have to say. saying, “What John meant is that Utah is beautiful enough

36 that it could all be a national park.” As they walked to the are on target. There is a horrendous job to do because there car, John said to him, “Jim, I meant what I said.” He said, “I are deep feelings, and it is very hard to restrain that power know, John, but did you see all those 30.06’s hanging in the when you get it and not say, “I’m going to do this regardless back of the pickup trucks? I just saved your life.” These are of what anybody else says.” That’s something we just have to the kinds of things that we really do have to be mindful of as caution ourselves about. We have to have the debate, and we look historically and into the future at how we do resolve then you have to make the decision and take the heat. The these problems, and we must consider all the ramifications decision is more important than the politician in the final on every life. analysis. I was in Governor Kitzhaber’s state a couple of weeks ago ANDRUS: Thank you very much, Governor. Ladies and and in rummaging through an old bookstore, I saw on the top gentlemen, I would point out that that sounded like an shelf John C. Calhoun. I don’t know if any of you recognize agreement with what John Kitzhaber said earlier. Every once that name, but the man probably was more responsible for in a while, you have to take a look at these laws and at how the doctrine of nullification and separation than anyone in things change, and perhaps you have to change some of the the United States. He was the Vice President under John ways you do business. Quincy Adams and then under Andrew Jackson, and then he Our third former governor is an outstanding individual from went on to the Senate. As I read through a ten-year period of the state of Nevada, who graduated from the University of his life in this very in-depth biography, I looked back at the Idaho as did his wife. He worked in this state, lived in this events that followed, and there was an attempt in those days state, and St. Maries is almost a home town. In 1970, the year to resolve weighty issues like tariffs, slavery, and economic that I was first elected in Idaho, he was first elected in Nevada. depression in the South because of high tariffs imposed by He’s a very direct, strong-willed, plain-speaking individual the manufacturing north as the balance of power shifted. So who served from 1971 to 1979 as Governor of the State of we all have to be careful that we don’t get in that imbalance. Nevada and is the executive editor of the Las Vegas Sun. Ladies It surprised me to learn that in the height of the debate, and gentlemen, Mike O’Callaghan. around 1830, in the Legislature of Virginia, one house voted O’CALLAGHAN: I learned some things about federal/state to do away with slavery, and the other missed voting for that relations quite a while ago, probably because of the by one or two votes. That caused me to reflect that things experience that I had in the federal government as a have to take their time. Maybe if cooler heads had prevailed, bureaucrat, as a regional director in working with the we could have avoided the great tragedy that occurred in the conservation agencies throughout the country. I have perhaps 1860’s with the Civil War. a different approach to many of these things. As Governor, I’m not predicting that will occur again because we fought the second executive order I made, during the first month I that battle and established that we’re much better off to go was in office, was to stop the use of the sewage disposal together. But to go together, we really have to be totally facilities in the Tahoe Basin because the stuff was going into committed to the notion that we’ve got to listen to the lake. I made clear at that time, as I would today, that everybody’s ideas. We’ve got to include everyone in this California and Nevada don’t own Lake Tahoe. The people of debate, and we must be prepared to give and to recognize this country own it, and we’re simply the people who are the timing of when we can and when we cannot do things. All supposed to protect it. We can use it, but at the same time, of you who have dealt with Legislatures know they are tough we have to realize that we have a special responsibility. So to handle. There are times when you can get things done in a the governor before me, a Republican, , was the Legislature, and there are times when you might as well go one that put together the Tahoe Regional Planning Agency, fishing because you just can’t get anything done. That’s what and prior to him, it was put together by another former we have to do; we have to work together to resolve these Idahoan, , and Pat Brown in California. At that issues between the federal government and the states. time, I was Governor Sawyer’s first Director of Human Everyone uses the founders as their argument—the founders Resources. meant this or the founders meant that. What the founders So I’ve never really feared the feds. I didn’t always agree really wanted was for us to have a living Constitution that with them, and we had some very contentious times as most kept us talking together, responding to the issues, and making governors do from time to time, but you can usually work prudent decisions. them out. Today for instance, you talk about shortage of I enjoyed the presentations today. I think these governors water. In Southern Nevada, it gets pretty hot and dry down

37 there sometimes. It was 108 yesterday, and it will get warm wetland. Some of the new people have taken their time and after a while. Water is very precious. Thank heavens for Bruce their talents to help us, and the ponds for cleaning the water Babbitt. As former governor of Arizona, he understands what are now bird sanctuaries. As a fellow that’s been around a it is to be dry. He has not capitulated to a state that has more few years, I say “Thank God for the immigrants that are coming votes and more people than all of the upper basin states put to us from all parts of the world and for the talents they are together. He has worked diligently to protect us and to do bringing.” what is right and to do what is fair. Without the federal Again, let me say that I work with the feds, and I treasure government in this, some of the upper basin states would them because they are just Nevadans and Americans like the really be in serious trouble, in my opinion. He’s been more rest of us. Again, the new people that are coming in are not than fair with us. bringing any new problems to us. We’ve always had those We’ve been growing. Last year, we were taking into our problems, and we’re always going to have problems. They county about 5,000 to 6,000 people a month. The town that are bringing in something special: their talents, their love, I moved into in 1956, Henderson, Nevada, was 8,500 then. and their ability to help solve problems that we’ve created There are 180,000 people there now. It has replaced Reno as ourselves. the second largest city in the state. ANDRUS: Michael, thank you very much. Ladies and During that period of time, I’ve watched new people come gentlemen, let me introduce to you Marc Johnson, former in. You don’t fear the feds; you work with them. You don’t Chief of Staff while I was governor here in Idaho, a principal fear immigrants. They become part of you. We’ve received of the Gallatin Group here. He will be the moderator for this great value from the people that have moved into our state, section. We have some of the written questions, but we want the people that came from back east, the people that came to give you governors and you, Jay Shelledy, the opportunity from California. California got crowded, too, and we get the to zero in on either the Governor of Oregon or the Governor overflow. We have some great people who have come in. They of Montana, who spoke earlier. Ladies and gentlemen, I’ll turn are all contributors to our society. it over to Marc Johnson. I’ll give you one example. We sat there for years beside a MARC JOHNSON: Thank you, Governor. Governor Racicot, big old swamp, just a big old swamp outside of Henderson. Governor Kitzhaber, while you were gone for lunch, Jay We didn’t call it wetlands in those days. I taught school there Shelledy suggested that one or the other of you will be the for five years, and when I heard the shotguns going off in the next Secretary of the Interior... morning in the fall, I knew that Barney Cannon, who is a JAY SHELLEDY: ...but only if Governor Racicot spells his veterinarian now, and Ernie Lomprey, who has passed away, name correctly. were shooting ducks and that their seats would be empty. I JOHNSON: Would you be willing? took that for granted. RACICOT: You mean to spell my name correctly? I’m afraid But this swamp, which later people began to identify as it’s a little late in the game to change the spelling, so that wetlands, was draining and cleaning the water that was might disenfranchise me from the very beginning. I don’t know flowing into Lake Mead where we get our drinking water. that that’s a possibility. I would have a relatively high degree Then, over time, the swamp disappeared. No ducks down of confidence in the appointment of a person like John there, nothing but dead bushes and garbage. Some new people Kitzhaber, with his understanding of the issues in the west, came in, and they took one look at it and knew we were in and would be comfortable that he would work on behalf of trouble. One of them is an engineer from Minnesota, and they the best interests of all of us who occupy the west. But I say that he irritates people. Yes, he does, but he kept after certainly wouldn’t know how to speculate about the future this and kept working with the University. Finally, we are now or levels of interest on the part of anyone. back in the business of recreating those wetlands, re-creating JOHNSON: Governor Kitzhaber? something that Nature left there and that we destroyed. With KITZHABER: Well, given whom I endorsed in the the leadership of new people coming into that area, we are Democratic primary, I think the possibility of my being offered now recreating the wetland. Do you know what it’s going to a cabinet post is extremely remote. do for us? It’s going to clean the water that goes into Lake JOHNSON: Well, let me prolong the agony for a moment. Mead, water that we’re drinking. Let me ask you, Governor Racicot, name one other western There’s a plume out there, which was coming from the mud Republican that meets the criteria that you both laid down and dirt that was going out there. Now, we’re re-creating the this morning to be Secretary of the Interior.

38 RACICOT: Governor Mike Leavitt. For instance, in dealing with bison in the state of Montana, JOHNSON: Governor Kitzhaber, how about another we have different disciplinary perspectives, as you can western Democrat that fits your criteria, someone that you’d imagine, with the Department of Livestock and the ben comfortable with. Department of Fish, Wildlife, and Parks. I’ve told both KITZHABER: Bruce Babbitt. agencies that we are going to reconcile our positions inside JOHNSON: One other thing that Jay suggested at lunch was this family before we ever present a position outside the that the next Administration ought to seriously consider and family. I think that struggle is critically important. It tests our advance the notion of consolidating the natural resource own theories and then allows us to present a cohesive plan agencies into a Department of Natural Resources—take the that is more well-rounded, thoughtful, and scientifically Forest Service, combine it with the Interior agencies and sound. I don’t think that happens in the federal government. perhaps a few other oddball agencies that are spread around To summarize, the bottom line is yes, I totally and the federal government. Is that a fair summation, Jay? completely agree. I wouldn’t confine it just to natural resource Governor Racicot? agencies, but it is an absolute mess right now. As a RACICOT: I would wholeheartedly agree. I wouldn’t confine consequence of that mess, a lot of people get painted with a it just to natural resource agencies, quite frankly. At my last broad brush who otherwise have good intentions. They simply count, having been involved in the practice of criminal justice cannot function because of the force of the process that’s for a long period of time, I think there are in excess of 23 or involved in the bureaucracy. 24 different law enforcement agencies at the federal level. It JOHNSON: Does another one of you gentlemen have a is hard for me to believe they have to exist. I think they are comment on that prospect of consolidating those agencies? probably more an accident of history than they are a O’CALLAGHAN: I’ll go along with what they’re saying in purposeful result of decision-making over the course of time. this regard. If you’re going to do it, I would suggest that the As I take a look at the Columbia River and at all of the administration of such an agency have some line of authority different agencies involved in its management, it’s difficult that is direct and limited, like the old Forest Service was. I for me to understand how they know exactly what their worked building Job Corps camps all over the country with counterparts are doing. As a matter of fact, I would allege all the Interior agencies. 50% were on their lands; 50% were that on many occasions, they don’t—not as a product of choice on forest lands. I found forest agencies much easier to work but as a result of the force of the process. with because there were only two people between the district Through the subterranean tunnels of the federal ranger and the chief. There was the forest supervisor and bureaucracy, it’s very difficult to chart an appropriate course. then the regional man. This made them much more efficient, I don’t understand why, for instance, the National Marine and I believe in efficiency in government. So if they are going Fisheries Service is within the Department of Commerce. That to put them all into one department, I would suggest that seems to me to be an odd location. It seems to make it more they rearrange all of them along that line. They would be difficult when you have the National Marine Fisheries Service, more efficient and would get the job done better. located in the Department of Commerce, arguing with the JOHNSON: Governor Kitzhaber? U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, located in the Department of KITZHABER: I also agree for two reasons. I think there is a Interior, over which species is entitled to more protection: lack of logic in putting two agencies that manage timberland white sturgeon or bull trout, which happen to occupy a lot of or deal with aquatic species in two separate departments. I native territory in the state of Montana, or several runs of think just logic would require some consolidation. Beyond salmon. that, one of the most frustrating things I’ve experienced and It seems to me that one of the functions of leadership is to one of the real difficulties we have in the Columbia Basin is reconcile the different policy and disciplinary perspectives the inability of federal natural resource agencies to speak within the agencies that you control. Now, it is entirely with a common voice. It is impossible to determine what the possible for one department to say, “Well, Interior doesn’t federal position is on Columbia Basin issues. NMFS has a agree with those agencies in Agriculture,” as if that’s an position; the BLM has a different position; Interior has a explanation. It may be an excuse, but it’s not an explanation, different position; the Bonneville Power Administration has in my judgment. One of the principles of leadership that has a different position. to be exercised by people in those executive branch agencies If you’re expecting the region—Oregon, Washington, Idaho, with supervisory authority is to reconcile those positions. and Montana—to come to consensus on how to manage the

39 Columbia Basin ecosystem, it’s not unreasonable to expect RACICOT: Well, I might offer some journalistic advice along the federal government to come to one decision as well. Going the same lines. We would be well advised to temper the through that process of consolidation would force us to look suggestions for the innuendo that is sometimes is made in at the fact that these different natural resource agencies are public, connecting those who have been supportive of a controlled by different sections of the federal statute, have candidate with ultimate policies that are put into place. different missions, different charges. There is no way Sometimes it is alleged that because there are various currently to coordinate them. So that proposal makes a great interests that are supportive of a campaign, that means deal of sense, and I would certainly support it. inescapably that the candidate ultimately, if he or she JOHNSON: Governor Batt? becomes a public officeholder, will vindicate exclusively the BATT: It’s a logical proposal and a good thing to aspire to. positions of those who support that particular candidate. The track record of consolidating federal agencies is a dismal Those appearances are argued all the time and presented in one, and I think it will continue to be unless you have a the press as if they were conclusions that are irreversible Congress and an Administration that is determined to do it. and universally true. The fact of the matter is that there have As long as one or the other is not, I think it will be almost been people that have supported me through political impossible. The Congress people, for instance, have these campaigns who have become very disappointed in me after I subcommittees formed for each little agency, and it’s a was elected, not because I disavowed any principle that I position of power for the officeholder. You have to have them may have articulated before or have not lived up to the on board as well as the administration. expectations I had of myself as an officeholder but because I BANGERTER: I said I endorsed that concept, but I’d agree may not have been able to—because I proceeded along a with Governor Batt. It’s a long reach to get all these little course I thought was appropriate and correct to vindicate fiefdoms out of the way and put it into one. You have problems my own conscience and my own principles—espouse a cause both ways. While I was governor, we spun off Environment they believed in. from the Health Department. We thought that was a logical Those in the journalistic world have a simplistic view of thing, and it has worked well, but there was a lot of opposition the political landscape and believe that simply because there from Health to losing that department. Whichever way you are people who support a candidate, inevitably that candidate go on re-organization, you have a major fight. will take positions consistent with whatever is being JOHNSON: Jay, one other thing you talked about at lunch— advocated by that individual constituency or group. Not that and I think I have the quote almost right—was that “politicians I would allege that your newspaper would do that sort of from both parties need to wean themselves from the special thing. And I really don’t allege that because I don’t know that interests, both from the environmental interests and the to be the case. All I do know is that there are expectations business and industrial interests.” Give me a for-instance created out there by the media that somehow they believe about how you think that is polluting the politics and the must be lived up to or down to. decision-making on these policy question. The fact is that isn’t how it happens with those who serve SHELLEDY: You probably quoted me accurately, but I’m in public office, and there ought to be as much of a talking about the extremes of both the industry and presumption of good faith with those who serve in public environmental groups, who want their way and nothing else. office as there is with everyone else. Until such time as we I think if you play to those, you don’t frankly represent what remove that discussion, we can’t start some of these dialogues the average person in your state really does want. You don’t with a sense of good faith or a presumption of the good balance the interests. I simply said to “leave the righteous intentions of the people involved. So we have to quit bastards in the foyer and move into a quieter room” where categorizing people, everyone that’s involved in these you could discuss building some sort of policy that works. debates, and that certainly includes public officeholders. (I can say that word in Idaho, Norm.) SHELLEDY: The news media has one other thing it ought BANGERTER: I guess it takes one to tell one. But that isn’t to do if it’s going to facilitate solutions, and that is not to run what I had reference to. I wondered if you were endorsing to the extremes for our quotes and sound bites. There are closed caucuses after all these years. huge areas in between that are more reasoned in their SHELLEDY: No, just a quiet room where everyone can solutions, though perhaps not as sexy in their content. But watch. we have to ignore also the same people in the foyer when it BANGERTER: I just wanted to get it straight. comes down to getting a representation of where the two

40 sides are on an issue. I looked at this last vote on China. All of my friends are for RACICOT: I would agree completely with that. The bottom it, but I have some grave reservations about it. It may be the line is that there is a competition now that goes on every way to go, but it sure smacks of the money twisting the tail in single day through the issuance of press releases, and with my view. We can’t ignore those kinds of things. the press of time and the new cycle that you compete in, it’s JOHNSON: Governor Batt, does the media exacerbate our obviously much more attractive and probably utilitarian to inability to settle or even deal with some of these western report on conflict than it is to investigate and determine issues. Do they make it more difficult to have the kind of where the margins for decision-making might be that would coverage of some of these issues that we see? be acceptable to a vast majority of people. BATT: I’d say they play a role on both sides of the issues. So it’s a battle for all of us, not just those in the media but They do make it more difficult to carry on some rather discreet for those of us who serve in the public arena as well. investigations and conversations that would be beneficial to O’CALLAGHAN: I’ll have to agree with both of you in most the solution of the problem. On the other hand, they are very cases, but, having served with legislators and others, I have helpful in helping a politician promote his views and the to tell you that 99% of them are there as public servants. It’s efforts he is making to reach a conclusion. In that context, it a tough job, and they do a good job. But there are enough is helpful, so I guess it plays both ways. cases where people have been influenced that way that it JOHNSON: I’d like to take this in a slightly different causes reporters to at least look at them with a wary eye. I direction for a moment. It strikes me that we have on this don’t blame them. The reporter should point out that this panel some genuine expertise about a truly contentious person is being supported by these people, etc. If there is western issue on which the west is, in many ways, united editorial comment, then that shouldn’t be in the story, but I against the rest of the country: its nuclear waste policy. think a reporter should point out that this person is being Governor O’Callaghan, you’re intimately familiar with the supported by this group or that group. Generally speaking, issue as it affects your state. Governor Bangerter dealt with however, you’re entirely right. The people are not overly it in a variety of different ways during his time in Utah. influenced, once they go into office, but there are enough Governor Batt certainly did in Idaho. Governor Kitzhaber has cases that an alert writer should be on top of it. Hanford just across the river. What would your advice be to RACICOT: I wouldn’t disagree with that either. There ought the next Administration to move forward in resolving this to be searing inquiry of those who serve in public office. But incredibly contentious issue that has such impact in the west. I don’t think you ought to begin with a presumption of O’CALLAGHAN: Leave it where it is until you come up with collusion. You ought to begin with a presumption of trust. a decent solution. It’s not endangering anyone at this time; it BANGERTER: The public probably begins with a can sit there for another hundred years or until we come up presumption of collusion. When I ran in 1984, I had a very with a decent solution. Don’t try to use my state as a toilet large contributor. We don’t have limits in Utah. I ran for re- because it’s not just plain old desert out there. Our desert is election in 1988, and they became the largest contributor to living, and it’s near large population areas. These people think the other candidate, which personally I thought was OK since they have it all solved by dragging it across through large I won. But that’s the challenge that you face, and I think we population areas even to get it to our place. Murphy’s Law can look at Senator McCain—whether you were for him or will take care of that, and about the first time you have an against him—and I think he found a real resonance in this accident, then they’ll say, “Maybe we should have approached notion. I personally find the huge amounts of money it differently.” Right now, there is no danger in it; it should be disturbing. I don’t have an answer, and I don’t know whether kept where it is, but when you start to move it, then you have I support the McCain bill, but I think there really is a challenge a problem. that is getting greater and greater for the political system The strange thing about this is we don’t have any nuclear with the organizations of lobbyists and their connections with power plants in our state, but people went ahead and licensed campaigns. This goes down to the local races in government these nuclear power plants. They knew there was going to be with influences occurring that seem to be rather obvious. So dangerous waste coming from them that would deadly for I just think we have to figure out some way to address that, several thousand years. That’s the time the planning should and I don’t have the answer. It’s a real thing that people at have been done. If we were going to authorize it, there should every level, at every extreme, and in the middle can perceive have been a solution on how the waste was to be handled— as a real problem, and I personally think it is. not after you’ve done it and made or lost your millions on it.

41 Now is not the time to say, “We have to find some place to because it is over one of the largest aquifers in the United dump this. Let’s drag it through Chicago, Omaha, Salt Lake States, the lifeblood of the state of Idaho, and some of it is City and other major cities and take it out to Nevada and seeping down in it where it is not contained properly. You dump it. We also have underground water, you know, and talk about the difficulties of transporting this material, but we have large aquifers that we’re trying to protect. We’re nobody ever complained about it being transported into also second to California—as far as the lower 48 states are Idaho. I didn’t hear of any accidents or any complaints when concerned—in being most likely to have earthquake problems. it was brought in. So I don’t think we can have it both ways. I So there are several scientific problems that have to be think it can be transported safely. Perhaps your state is not solved here. They are not going to solved by Congress’ the place to put it, and you can continue to argue that, but as lowering the standards. That’s what they’re trying to do. “Let’s far as transportation goes, it has been done satisfactorily and lower the standards, and then it will be a good place to put will continue to be. it.” Right now, our neighbor to the east of us, Utah, has a O’CALLAGHAN: I guess Murphy doesn’t live up in Idaho. problem with the Goshutes, who are trying to make a deal SHELLEDY: There is a little point that Mike brought up that for dumping nuclear waste there. I sympathize with them, needs to be addressed. We lay this down now that Utah wants but it’s their Congressional delegation that has voted each this. Utah doesn’t, but the Goshutes out on the west desert time to dump it in Nevada, so I can’t be too sympathetic. are looking at it. You have to understand that there is a BANGERTER: It sounds like a good answer to me, but we problem out there. This is a tribe that has no economic base won’t route it through Salt Lake City but through somewhere whatsoever. It wanted to have bingo parlors, but that was else. This is a real challenge, and I’m not current on what’s deemed far more dangerous than nuclear waste, so you take happening today. If you go back a while—I’ll refer to what away entrepreneurism, and they’re going to say, “Sure, we the two governors talked about—and that’s science, the can store it out here safely because we have studies that say ecosystem. Mike is exactly right. They really don’t know what you can store it safely.” I’m not so certain, but reasonable they’re going to do with it; they don’t know what value there people can argue that point. The real problem is basically is in it; they haven’t made a determination yet. This was a that somebody is going to take it. They are a sovereign nation, very hot issue back in 1984, and we came to the conclusion and they can take it. As it looks right now, we’re not going to that monitored retrievable storage was the answer. You can be able to stop that. But they have no other choice, so our keep it where it is—they can do that for a number of years to west desert becomes the toilet, but after all, we’re all the come—but ultimately somebody is going to have to come up Great Basin, so maybe it fits. with a solution. It may impact the west in some way, and it O’CALLAGHAN: It flows south. may be one of those things that ultimately will occur, but I SHELLEDY: There are other issues than just that, and don’t think we’re ready for that yet, and I don’t think they’ve sometimes they are economic. proved that’s the only solution. We ought to resist until they JOHNSON: Governor Racicot, do you have a comment on really know for sure what’s the best scientific answer to deal nuclear waste policy? I didn’t mean to leave Montana out of with that issue. the equation. BATT: This was a hot issue in 1994 also. In fact, I almost RACICOT: This is one of the few times I will decline to got recalled for taking eight loads of spent fuel from the Navy, comment. The fact is we don’t, and we observe these which was part of an agreement from Governor Andrus’ arguments with great interest, but obviously we don’t have administration, although he had said at that point that he the same exposure that other states have. would challenge it. But we in Idaho also do not have nuclear JOHNSON: Governor Kitzhaber. Have you thought about plants. We were carrying out our part in the defense of this how the next administration ought to approach this problem? country by accepting the waste from our Navy. That’s nearly We’ve seen a little bit of the dichotomy of the debate, even all that’s out there. Three Mile Island debris is out there. The as it works out in the west. transuranic waste from the building of bombs in Colorado is KITZHABER: I think the federal government needs to be out there. We were guaranteed every time a load came in put in a position where they place an extraordinarily high that it was only there on a temporary basis and that it would priority on developing the technology and the ability to assure be moved. the American people that wherever they store this, it will be I’m not saying, Governor, that we ought to move it into stored in a safe fashion. I think it’s much more productive for Nevada necessarily, but it should be moved somewhere western governors, instead of playing the game of potato, to

42 work together and not provide a pressure release value for Congressman Walden on the Steens Mountains to try to the federal government to do what only the federal develop a legislative solution that would avoid a national government can do, and that’s make this a high priority. It’s monument. We are very close to an agreement. I think not adequately funded; there is not a major national effort everyone recognizes that the Steens Mountains are a national underway to try to solve this problem, but we continue to treasure. People also recognize that as population increases, get some of our power from nuclear reactors. We use it in there is an increased likelihood of a very negative impact on our military department, and we need to make disposal of that wonderful resource. Right now, it’s in good shape, and the waste a high priority. it’s in good shape because the ranchers there are operating Again, people always look to the west because there is a in a very responsible fashion. lot of open space, so we need to work together to try to solve So we’re essentially trying to work out an agreement that the problem. At the end of the day, someone is going to have preserves the ranching life on the mountain, that limits future to take it. There will probably have to be some kind of super private development, that increases the wilderness protection siting authority. I just dropped eight prisons all over the state on certain parts of the mountain, and that develops some of Oregon, none of them welcome. You ultimately can’t solve boundaries. It would also ban future mineral withdrawals those kinds of problems if you get into the NIMBY issue. But from that area. If we are able to do that and if Congress is we should have assurances that, at the end of the day, it can able to pass this bill, we will have achieved something without be done safely; that’s where we should put our collective a confrontation. I don’t believe that consideration of a place political energy. for a national monument is necessarily something negative. JOHNSON: Dr. Freemuth is in the back of the room, and I think it can be very positive. It can bring people together we want to open this up to questions to our panel. John has a and build a sense of community if it’s done right. It can also couple of announcements. be done wrong, but that’s not the experience we’re going JOHN FREEMUTH: Two quick things. If anyone wants to through with the Steens in Oregon. send me one to two pages regarding what they think the next RACICOT: We are similarly, in the state of Montana, going administration should do, along the lines of Jay Shelledy’s to do it right. We have had, through a variety of different conclusions, send them to me at the Andrus Center, and I urgings, been able to secure the Secretary’s presence in will attempt to incorporate that into the white paper, which Montana on at least two occasions to convince him to utilize I will write, based on the results of this conference. our Resource Advisory Council, the RAC that he actually put The other quick note is for those of you, especially in Idaho, into place, to be the sounding board for public hearings who have followed the Federal Lands Task Force, on either around the state of Montana to take a look at the Missouri side of the issue. There is a one-page update of where that River Breaks and the 140-mile stretch up and down the banks process is. Copies are on the table, and you may pick one up of that particular stream. It is a very important part of the as you leave the room. geography of the state of Montana. It is delicate in many AUDIENCE: Gentlemen, I’m Betsy McGreer, and I’m from respects. Those who have been there traditionally over the Lewiston, Idaho. I recently heard that as many as 24 separate years—in ranching, farming, exploring for oil and gas, areas are under consideration by the Clinton Administration recreating—all believe that with the celebration of the Lewis to be designated as national monuments before Clinton leaves and Clark Bicentennial, we will experience a horrendous office. One was in the Siskiyou in Oregon; another was the influx of visitors and others who are interested in the area. Breaks of the Missouri in Montana; another was the Lewis We have to prepare properly for that and to guide and steer Clark Trail in Idaho. I want to know whether you’ve been them in directions that will preclude the desecration of the contacted by the Administration, and do you have a plan to resource itself. respond if a monument is designated without your input? The Secretary has been open to continuing the traditional KITZHABER: I’d be happy to talk about that. We have a utilization of those lands by the public—from recreation to couple going in Oregon. The fact is I have been contacted by agriculture. So far, he has proceeded down that path to try the Administration, and I don’t believe they just cruise in and and listen and to put together a package of recommendations. drop one without some dialogue. It’s pretty hard to disguise He has indicated that he is willing to proceed with a that; it makes a pretty big splash in the newspapers. I’ve been Congressional solution. We think a lot of the things he can working for about two years with Secretary Babbitt and with do or wants to do can be done without a designation under our Congressional delegation, including Senator Smith and the Antiquities Act. In fact, it probably can be done without

43 Congressional action as well, but nonetheless our PATRICK A. SHEA: Actually, I want to tell a brief story. Congressional delegation has indicated a desire to consider Governor Kitzhaber’s aid was saying that they were in a a proposal that’s going to ultimately come to be made by the meeting the other day, and someone brought out a slide rule Secretary. and asked him if he still knew how to use it. He said, “I think So I think something is going to happen there, and our great I do.” He left the room, and the person who was sitting at the hope is that we do it from the bottom up, rather than from reception desk said, “What’s a slide rule?” I say that because the top down. At the end of the day, if we don’t have in my travels around the country, it strikes me that people something accomplished on the basis of consensus, then my under the age of 25 are increasingly not believing in suspicion is that he may choose to act unilaterally. I would government. It doesn’t matter whether it’s local, county, state, hate to see that, but the fact is that he may be running out of or federal government. It’s just something that is an time prior to the moment when he can actually secure what unnecessary appendage—like an appendix. I’d be interested he thinks is appropriate and may not trust that process to in each of your perceptions regarding persons under the age the future. In that event, he may proceed to act unilaterally of 25 as regards their interest in and commitment to civil and declare that area as a monument under the Antiquities government. If you think, as I do, that there is a problem Act. In many ways, it has brought positive aspects to the there, what are some of the solutions? discussion in the state of Montana to do the kinds of things SHELLEDY: I don’t think historically that group has ever that even those who live on the banks of the Missouri River been that interested in government. It depends on what want to see done in order to protect it. As John said, it doesn’t happens between the ages of 20 to 25 years and from then necessarily have to be bad or perceived in a way that is on. I think the jury’s out here. I would not be that pessimistic. incapable of resolution. I don’t think that group is any more disengaged than the rest I think the Secretary has provided an example, a model, of of us from the process. There is a great deal of frustration exactly what it is that we’re suggesting today. He has listened, about government from anyone who is a senior citizen to he has visited, he has looked into the eyes of the people that that age group, but I don’t quite agree that that group is live there, he has tried to find flexible solutions that allow disengaged or will be that disengaged. for the continuation of traditional uses, he’s tried to leave BATT: When I was elected, that was my strongest group, people whole, and I think there is every reason to believe so I think they are very astute. that we can accomplish this in a positive, thoughtful way. So BANGERTER: Well, I sometimes worry about people who in many ways, what he is doing is a vindication of precisely come out of college and go right into the political scene and what it is we’re talking about, at least in that individual spend their lives there. I’m a great believer that you ought to instance. I can’t say that that’s what has occurred on every have some experience outside the system and have to bear occasion, but in this instance at least, we continue to have the effects of the system before you go in there and try to hope that it will proceed in that direction. revamp it. Marc, I think, at this point in time, I need to thank Governor So I would agree with Jay. I’m not too concerned at that Andrus and all of you here and my colleagues on the panel. I point. They get their education, and then, as they meet the have to dispatch myself from the command module here to problems of life, they get drawn into this debate and have to go back and preside over some activities in the great and deal with those issues because it now starts to affect their noble state of Montana. Thank you all very much for including pocketbooks, their jobs, and all of the things that go into life. me, and thanks to the audience as well for your thoughtful But it’s not just the young people. I sense great disaffection questions and the opportunity to be a part of this discussion. with the political process across the spectrum, and there is a I think it’s very, very important, and we could stand to do feeling of hopelessness and of the futility of voting. I think this on repetitive occasions throughout the west and then let that’s what we need to deal with. The kinds of solutions you’re those lessons be seared into us, allow them ultimately to talking about here today are the things that will be required, permeate the entire country, and bring about a new regime but it’s very difficult. of making decisions in this country. I think about my seven campaigns for public office, of the Thank you very much. town meetings we had, and of how few people ever really FREEMUTH: This is a question from a fed. They have been came to listen. That’s the challenge. People don’t pay hectored for two years; now they get to ask one. Pat Shea, attention nearly enough, and we need to figure out how to Assistant Secretary of Interior, has a question. do something about that. The influence of money has a

44 dampening effect, but again, I don’t have the solution. When I got into politics in the 1970’s, you could drop out of O’CALLAGHAN: As I mentioned, I taught government and school in the 11th grade in Roseburg, Oregon and get a good economics in high school for five years when I started out. job in the mill with good benefits, good wages, and the One of the first things I did was help push the 18-year-old expectation that you would hold that job for the rest of your vote through the state, which I thought was important. life. That’s not true today. Those of us who are older tend to Overall, the numbers have not risen to the heights I had see the world the way it was when we were 18 to 34, and it’s hoped, but I think a lot of the problem comes from the attitude important to try to put ourselves in the shoes of those young we pass on to these people, negative attitudes. When I was people and then to try to do what we can to make our governor, my lieutenant governor was one of my former governmental institutions more relevant to the kinds of issues students, and three members of the Legislature were students and problems that they face. I had taught in high school. They became very active, and JOHNSON: Jay, you indicated a moment ago you had a when I ran for office, they helped me. I found them to be question, and then we let Governor Racicot get away before active all the way through, and I notice that the children of you had a chance to ask it. these people are active as well. One of them is Harry Reid, SHELLEDY: One of the other points I made at the lunch our senior senator and the minority leader. Their children that you and Governor Racicot so successfully boycotted was are staying involved. One way I did it was to get them that we move the BLM and the Forest Service out of involved. They had to read newspapers; they had to know Washington D.C. to headquarters in the west or northwest what was going on. There was no easy way out because they where the majority of its operations are. What do you think? were tested on it. I found different ways to get them involved If you could just wave a wand and do it, would you? in the community. I think we all have that responsibility. I KITZHABER: Having had only five seconds to think about had that responsibility with my five children; I have that it, I think there is probably some value in doing that. I know responsibility with my grandchildren, so I would say that any that the instances when we’ve actually had the Deputy disillusionment that they have is learned; it doesn’t just come Director of Commerce out in Oregon, talking to us, walking out of the air. And who is teaching them? the land...when we’ve had George Frampton, it’s been very KITZHABER: Just one brief comment. I know in Oregon, powerful and very instructive to actually see the issues and the voter turnout among 18 to 34-year-olds is at the very actually experience the terrain. So to the extent that plan bottom. In last year’s primary, 6% of the 18-year-olds voted. would get the people who are making the decisions out on To me, that’s a very big problem. I think there are a couple of the ground, I think that’s very positive. However, there is reasons for it. First of all, when I was that age, we could get nothing to keep the national director of the BLM from drafted and sent to Vietnam at the age of 18 but couldn’t vote spending time traveling extensively in the west, so I think till we were 21. We had the voter registration drive going on, the end we’re trying to achieve is to get the policy-makers and there were some very compelling issues in the late 60’s more familiar with the west. One means to that end would be that got a lot of attention, some national policies that directly to move the headquarters out. Another means might be to affected our lives and gave us the motivation to get involved have a higher priority of traveling out here. in the political process. I’m not sure that there is any central With that, I’m going to have to excuse myself, too. I thank issue just now, in this period of extended economic you, Cecil, for the opportunity to travel over here and to see prosperity, that gives that kind of motivation to young people. you put in a corner this morning. It was really a remarkable They increasingly think that government is not really relevant experience for me. to their lives at a time when we all preach the importance of ANDRUS: Thank you very much. I appreciate very much post-secondary education for economic success and social your being here. Give my best to your family. success. I think we had an outstanding opportunity this morning You can’t get out of a public institution of higher learning and this afternoon to listen to members of the political today in Oregon without being $40,000 or $50,000 in debt. establishment of the individual states and to their ideas as to Kids have to find some work to pay back their loans for the how we can best look to the future to solve our problems. first four or five years after they get out of college. The What I’d like to do for the next 15 minutes is to give the four solution to it is to do what we can to try to understand the gentlemen who are with us the opportunity to wrap up any issues and concerns of young people, which are comments and suggestions, which will be used to prepare fundamentally different than when I was in high school. the white paper for presentation to the next administration,

45 whoever that might be. O’CALLAGHAN: In regard to the nuclear waste problem, Does anyone have a comment or wrap-up remarks? I’m reminded of an environmental expert. Wally White was SHELLEDY: I’d like to comment on two or three things that his name. When we had our first tertiary treatment of sewage, were said. Phil Batt said that there weren’t any grizzlies, he used to show exactly how good it was by taking a glass of wolves, or rattlesnakes in Boise. How soon they forget the it and drinking it. I used to watch him drink it—that was it. State Legislature meets every year. When it comes to Nevadans and their experience with the One of the points that Mike made that I thought was good Atomic Energy Commission and the Department of Energy, is not to get too concerned about migrations. They tend to you have to remember that they also were patriotic and let level out, and every state will get an in and out migration. them blow hell out of the desert with nuclear bombs and You should have seen the migration into Utah in 1847 from everything was OK. We’d get up in the morning and watch . It worked out very well. them go off, and you could see them all the way to Denver. I have to comment about Norm Bangerter as governor. I BANGERTER: ...and the fallout all came to Utah. don’t know that we agree on all that much, but he was a O’CALLAGHAN: That’s exactly what I’m getting to. And the leader. You knew where you stood, and he wasn’t afraid to assurances were that everything was OK, but go to St. George make a decision. I think that is crucial today. You must have and take a look at the graveyard there. Scott Matheson has leaders in positions of policy-making that are able to make a some relatives there and may have been a victim himself. decision and to say, “That’s it. That’s the way it’s going to be, They told us everything was OK, but the graveyards down and to hell with you if you don’t like it because I’m the elected there tell us it wasn’t OK. Now they come to us and say, “Don’t leader.” Norm Bangerter was one of those persons. worry about your groundwater; don’t worry about anything. I will say that it was rather historic today that he and I Everything will be OK if you just take the nuclear waste from agreed on two points, but his kind of leadership is what it’s the power plants.” I can tell you it’s not going to sell. going to take. Phil Batt was a leader; Cecil Andrus certainly BATT: I’d just like to congratulate you on this conference. was a leader; Mike O’Callaghan was a leader; and it sounds Governor. It’s an honor to have these folks come to Idaho, like Kitzhaber and Racicot are also leaders. What we’re lacking and we think we have the best solutions here, but they’re at the federal level today is that kind of strong leadership. improving on them with some exceptions. Thank you very On one hand, you have to give Clinton his due on this issue. much, sir. I think the session has really accomplished its Whether you agree or do not agree that this needs to happen, purpose. You deserve all the credit. he and Babbitt have taken decisive steps to do what they ANDRUS: Let me have thirty seconds to express my think is right. That is refreshing. Even though I may or may appreciation, not only to the governors that have already not agree with it, it’s still refreshing. It’s this wishy-washy, departed but also to the three governors who are still here middle ground, can’t-make-a-decision that really hamstrings and to Jay Shelledy for his insightful and humorous government, and you lose the support of the people, whether presentation at lunch today, one that had a real message, they 18 to 25 or 55 to 65. particularly in the latter part when he went through those BANGERTER: I think we’d better get out of here because if points with you. we’re not careful, Jay and I are going to be drinking down at We are going to take the white paper from this conference, the pub together. and I will see that it is in fact given to the next President of I don’t know that I can add anything else, but I am a firm the United States. I will then take it upon myself to see that it believer that you do have to address the issues, and you’ve is presented to all of the cabinet officials that he will appoint. got to get the input from everybody you can possibly get it Whether he chooses to deal with the information that you from, but then you’ve still got to make the decision. I know people have helped us put together, I don’t know, but he will Grand Staircase fairly well, and probably it isn’t a bad idea to have it. The only way you can see that he follows through have it in some kind of a monument, but it really does with your wishes is to put the heat on him and his cabinet. exemplify the poor manner in which we sometimes find Thank you once again for visiting the Andrus Center for ourselves making decisions. We just have to avoid that at all Public Policy at Boise State University. We stand adjourned. cost, but we still can’t avoid making the decision. And we’ll ✩✩✩ still be accused of making it in a vacuum, no matter how hard we try to bring everybody into the issue. You just have to be prepared to do that.

46 Policy After Politics How should the next administration approach public land management in the western states?

Presented by The Andrus Center for Public Policy at Boise State University Thursday, June 1, 2000 The Student Union Boise State University Boise, Idaho PARTICIPANTS

Cecil D. Andrus: Chairman, Andrus Center for Public Utah House of Representatives from 1975 to 1985 and as Policy; Governor of Idaho, 1987 to 1995; Secretary of Interior, Speaker for four of those years. He was also chairman of the 1977 to 1981; Governor of Idaho, 1971 to 1977. During his four Western Governors’ Association and served on the Executive terms as Governor of Idaho and his four years as Secretary Committee of the National Governors’ Association. Governor of Interior, Cecil Andrus earned a national reputation as a Bangerter’s many honors reflect his devotion to his “common-sense conservationist,” one who could strike a wise community and his church. They include board memberships balance between the often-conflicting conservation and on the State Constitutional Revision Commission, the development positions. That reputation resulted in part from Interstate Oil Compact Commission, Utah’s Job Training his pivotal roles in the passage of the Alaska Lands Act and Council, and the LDS Social Services Advisory Board. Such the National Surface Mining Act of 1977 and the creation of awards as the Silver Beaver Award from the Boy Scouts of the Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness Area, the America indicate his concern for young people. The Governor Snake River Birds of Prey Area, and the Hell’s Canyon National has also served as a bishop and stake president in the Church Recreation Area. He grew up in logging country where his of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and as a mission president father operated a sawmill, and he attended Oregon State in the late 1990s for the Johannesburg South Africa Mission. University until his enlistment in the U. S. Navy during the He is married to Colleen Munson, and they have six children conflict in Korea. Following his return to Idaho, he worked in and twenty-six grandchildren. the northern Idaho woods as a lumberjack and helped operate Philip E. Batt: Former Governor of Idaho, a farmer for a sawmill in Orofino. He was elected to the Idaho State Senate many years in Wilder, Idaho, and author of The Compleat in 1960 at the age of 29. During his years in public service, Phil Batt-A Kaleidoscope. As a young man, he attended the Governor Andrus has championed local land-use planning University of Idaho and served in the Army Air Force during laws and protection of wild and scenic rivers, and he helped World War II. He has a long record of legislative engineer a comprehensive agreement between industry and accomplishment, having served in the for conservation to assure the protection of Idaho’s water quality. 16 years. Those accomplishments include development of He elected not to run again in 1994 and subsequently Idaho’s compensation for state employees, Idaho’s first established the Andrus Center for Public Policy to which he comprehensive civil rights law, and Idaho’s farm labor donates his service as chairman. The Center is located on the bargaining act. He earned a reputation as a thorough, fair campus of Boise State University. His awards include seven legislator and won respect from both sides of the political honorary degrees, the William Penn Mott Park Leadership aisle. In 1994, he was elected Governor and served until Award from the National Parks Conservation Association, January 1999. His term was highlighted by an unprecedented Conservationist of the Year from the National Wildlife historic nuclear was agreement between Idaho and the federal Federation, the Ansel Adams Award from the Wilderness government and by his successful efforts to establish workers Society, the Medal, and the Torch of Liberty award compensation coverage for agricultural workers. Governor from B’Nai Brith. Batt is a licensed pilot, a golfer, a fisherman, a gardener, and Norman H. Bangerter: Governor of Utah from 1985 to a jazz musician. He has been married for 52 years to Jacque 1993, currently a building contractor/developer and president Elaine Fallis of Spokane, and they have three grown children of NHB Construction in South Jordan, Utah. He served in the and five grandchildren.

47 John C. Freemuth, Ph.D.: Senior Fellow, Andrus Center South Dakota State University. He is a past president of the for Public Policy, and Professor of Political Science and Public Idaho Press Club and the Bishop Kelly High School Foundation Administration, Boise State University. Dr. Freemuth’s and serves on the Boards of Directors of the Idaho Humanities research and teaching emphasis is in natural resource and Council, the St. Vincent De Paul Society, and the Housing public land policy and administration. He is the author of an Company, a non-profit corporation devoted to developing award-winning book, Islands Under Siege: National Parks and low-income housing projects in Idaho. the Politics of External Threats (Univ. of Kansas, 1991) as well Dirk Kempthorne: Governor of Idaho. Elected to the as numerous articles on aspects of natural resource policy, governorship in 1998, Dirk Kempthorne has been chosen by including five recent publications: “The Emergence of the citizens of Idaho to serve at every level: Mayor of Boise Ecosystem Management: Reinterpreting the Gospel” Society from 1985 to 1993, United States Senator from 1993 to 1999. and Natural Resources (1996), “Ecosystem Management and Since his inauguration as governor, he has put forward an Its Place in the National Park Service” Denver Law Review ambitious agenda to improve Idaho’s public schools, early (1997), “Science, Expertise, and the Public: The Politics of childhood development, and immunization rates. During his Ecosystem Management in the Greater Yellowstone term in the U. S. Senate, he wrote and won passage of a bill Ecosystem” (with R. McGreggor Cawley) Landscape and Urban to end unfunded federal mandates on state and local Planning (1998), “Understanding the Politics of Ecological governments. He served on the Armed Services Committee, Regulation: Appropriate Use of the Concept of Ecological the U.S. Air Force Academy Board of Visitors, and the Helsinki Health” (Proceedings of the International Conference on Commission, a North American/European international Ecosystem Health, Forthcoming, 2000, and “Roadless Area human rights monitoring group. Prior to his years in public Policy, Politics and Wilderness Potential” in the International service, Governor Kempthorne worked as Public Affairs Journal of Wilderness (with Jay O’Laughlin, April 2000). He is Manager for FMC Corporation. He is a 1975 graduate of the the author of two Andrus Center white papers on public land University of Idaho where he earned a degree in political policy, based on Center conferences in 1998 and 1999. He science and was elected student body president. He has has worked on numerous projects with federal and state received numerous honors, including the Idaho Statesman’s resource bureaus, including the Forest Service, Bureau of Land “Citizen of the Year” award, the Guardian of Small Business Management, and National Park Service at the federal level award from the National Federation of Independent Business, and the Departments of Fish and Game, Parks and Recreation, the Public Service Award from the Association of Metropolitan and Division of Environmental Quality of the state of Idaho. Sewerage Agencies, Legislator of the Year Award from the He recently represented the Andrus Center on the Science National Hydropower Association, and the Idaho National Advisory Board of the Bureau of Land Management and now Guard’s top civilian honor, the Distinguished Service Medal. serves as its chair. He has been a high school teacher and He and his wife Patricia, an outstanding advocate for children seasonal park ranger. He holds a B.A. degree from Pomona in her own right, have two children, Heather and Jeff. College and a Ph.D. from Colorado State University. John Kitzhaber: Governor of Oregon. Born in Colfax, Marc Johnson: Boise partner of The Gallatin Group, a Washington, Governor Kitzhaber grew up in Oregon and Pacific Northwest public affairs/issues management firm with graduated from in 1965. After offices in Boise, Seattle, Portland, and Spokane. Johnson graduating from Dartmouth, he earned a medical degree from served on the staff of Governor Cecil D. Andrus from 1987 to the University of Oregon Medical School and practiced 1995, first as press secretary and later as chief of staff. He has emergency medicine in Roseburg, Oregon for 13 years. He was a varied mass communications background, including elected to the Oregon House of Representatives in 1978 and experience in radio, television, and newspaper journalism. subsequently served three terms in the Oregon Senate, where He has written political columns and done extensive was elected Senate President and was recognized nationally broadcast reporting and producing. Prior to joining Governor for authoring the ground-breaking . In Andrus, Johnson served as managing editor for Idaho Public November 1994, he was elected Governor of Oregon and was Television’s award-winning program, Idaho Reports. He has re-elected in November of 1998. He has received recognition produced numerous documentaries and hosted political for his many accomplishments in the field of environmental debates. Several of his programs have been aired regionally stewardship, including the prestigious Neuberger Award given and nationally on Public Television. Johnson is a native of by the Oregon Environmental Council. Preserving Oregon’s South Dakota and received a B.S. degree in journalism from environment remains a priority for Kitzhaber, and during his

48 first term, he developed and implemented the Oregon Plan Racicot was sworn in as Montana’s 20th governor, and in 1996, for Salmon and Watersheds, a collaborative plan that he was re-elected with 80% of the vote, the largest percentage encourages federal, state, and local government agencies to for a governor in Montana’s history. After working with the work with private landowners to restore watershed health Legislature to eliminate an $200 million deficit in 1993, the and recover endangered salmon species. Governor Kitzhaber Racicot Administration helped produce a $22.4 million budget is an accomplished fly fisherman and enjoys Oregon’s wild surplus in 1995. The Governor, who drives his own car and rivers. He is married to Sharon LaCroix of Saskatchewan, keeps his home phone listed, has traveled thousands of miles Canada, and they have one son, Logan, born in October, 1997. within the nation’s fourth largest state, listening to Montanans Mike O’Callaghan: Executive Editor and Chairman of the in cafes, convenience stores, clubs, and athletic events. Some Board of the Las Vegas Sun since 1979. A graduate of the of the Governor’s interests include running, carpentry, and baccalaureate and master’s programs at the University of gardening. He also serves on the Board of Directors for United Idaho, Governor O’Callaghan completed further graduate Way and the Board of Visitors of the work at Georgetown University, the Claremont Graduate Law School, and he was a member of the Board of Trustees at School in Economics, Colorado State University, and the from 1989 to 1993. He and his wife, Theresa, University of Nevada. A Marine veteran, he served during celebrated their 25th wedding anniversary in 1995 and have World War II and was awarded the Purple Heart and the five children. Bronze and Silver Stars. He taught high school for five years Jay Shelledy: Editor, Salt Lake Tribune since 1991. Jay and subsequently became the first director of Nevada’s Health Shelledy received his B.A. in journalism from Gonzaga and Welfare Department. He managed the Job Corps University and attended law school at the University of Idaho. Conservation Centers Program in the mid sixties and, in the He is the former editor and publisher of the Moscow Pullman 70’s, was elected twice to the governorship of Nevada, during Daily News and the editor of the Lewiston Morning Tribune. which time he served two terms as chairman of the Western Mr. Shelledy worked as a reporter for both the LMT and the Governors’ Conference and headed up the committee that Associated Press and as a high school teacher and coach in developed the reorganization plan that resulted in the the late sixties. Among his more colorful employments was a creation of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. He brief stint in 1966 as a railway brakeman. When Governor continues to be involved nationally, having served as an Andrus looked for Idahoans of impeccable integrity to serve election observer in Nicaragua for the Carter Center and in on the Lottery Commission, Jay Shelledy was one of the people Iraq for the Kurdish elections in the 1990’s. He is married to he chose. He has lent his time and talents to many civic causes, Carolyn Randall from Twin Falls, Idaho and has five children including the boards of the YWCA Community Advisory Board, and fifteen grandchildren. the Rose Park Library Project in Salt Lake City, Investigative Marc Racicot: Governor of Montana. A third generation Reporters and Editors, the Washington-Idaho Symphony, and Montanan, Governor Racicot lives the values of his parents, the Idaho Governor’s Task Force on Education. His after-hours who opened their home to foster children, taking in nearly activities include sailing, golf, public speaking, and tutoring 50 youngsters over time and formally adopting two, Phillip in at-risk schools. He is married to Susan E. Thomas and has and Aimee, to join Marc, Tim, Larry, Pat, and Chris. Under one child, Ian Whitaker Shelledy. the guidance of his father, a teacher and high school basketball and track coach, Marc Racicot played on the basketball team at Libby High School and later at Carroll College. At Carroll, Marc was elected student body president and, in 1970, set a still-unbroken record for the most assists in a basketball game. The Governor received his law degree from the University of Montana Law School in Missoula in 1973 and was immediately assigned to the Judge Advocate General’s Corps and stationed in West Germany where he served as chief prosecutor for the largest U. S. military jurisdiction in Europe. After three years, he returned home to become deputy county attorney for Missoula County and ultimately, in 1988, Attorney General. On January 4, 1993, Marc

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