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Home , Avishai Margalit, Harvey Mansfield, Michael Walzer

[50] JOURNAL OF POLITICAL THOUGHT INTERVIEW [with ]

Michael Walzer is a prominent American political theorist and public intel- lectual. A professor emeritus at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princ- eton, New Jersey, he is co-editor of Dissent, an magazine that he has been affiliated with since his years as an undergraduate at . He has written about a wide variety of topics in political theory and moral , including political obligation, just and unjust war, and ethnicity, economic , and the welfare state. He has played a critical role in the revival of a practical, issue-focused and in the development of a pluralist approach to political and moral life. Wal- zer’s books include Just and Unjust Wars (1977), On (1997), and Spheres of Justice (1983). We sat down with him in May for a wide- ranging conversation on the interplay between personal identity and po- litical thought, the state of political theory today, and the overlapping chal- lenges posed by religion and ethnicity for the contemporary nation-state.

I. Identity and the Political interested in left-issue . Theory License My teachers at Brandeis told me I should apply to graduate school JPT: What first drew you to the in , because it field of political theory? wasn’t really a field and you could do whatever you wanted. Whereas MW: When I was a history major in history you would be commit- at Brandeis, I was first interested ted to archival research, in politi- in studying the history of ideas. At cal science you could write about the same time, I was always very politics, you could write political engaged in politics. Brandeis was biographies, you could do and the place where the ‘60s began in politics, you could do sociology the ‘50s. There was a lot of political and politics. activity on campus coinciding with the first desegregation decisions JPT: As a graduate student did you from the Supreme Court. We had know you wanted to work on nor- an organization back then called mative political theory? “SPEAC,” Student Political Educa- tion and Action Committee. There MW: Not yet. My dissertation was wasn’t a lot of action, but it was SDS on the Puritans. I wanted to write [Students for a Democratic Soci- about , but my French ety] before there was SDS. I also wasn’t good enough and my Rus- came from a family that was very sian was nonexistent, so I had VOL. 1, ISSUE 1 [51]

to write about the English Revolution, than the academic writing that I had which meant writing about Calvinism. I done. A turn to normative political theo- was at that point very committed to the ry was a way of combining the two. If you proposition that the way to study politi- look at the essays in Obligations, my first cal theory was through history. book, you would be looking at my first I had a Fulbright between college and effort to write normative political theory. graduate school, and I continued to read I remember trembling when I gave my sixteenth century history with Geoffrey first normative paper, which was the lead Elton at Cambridge. I came to Harvard piece in what became Obligations. Stuart having already started work on what Hampshire was very kind and said good became my doctoral dissertation on the things, and he encouraged me to keep Puritan Revolution. But once I was in the doing that sort of thing. Department at Harvard, I I recently wrote an autobiographical es- realized that theory was what was inter- say for Nancy Rosenblum at Harvard, de- esting to me. scribing what I call the “political theory license.” Political theorists do not have to JPT: What changed your attitude to- pretend to be objective or non-partisan. wards political theory? I could write a paper that could be aca- demically respectable defending equal- MW: I came to Princeton for my first po- ity or . I could give a course on sition as an Assistant Professor teaching equality and the only requirement was the history of political theory, because that I acknowledge the strongest argu- ments against my positions and deal with them in class. At the time, I would write Political theory should be the an essay and I would decide afterword work of people who have a whether to publish it in Dissent or in an academic journal. If I published it in an political position that they academic journal I would have to add 25 “ want to defend.” footnotes and muddy the prose a little bit, qualify certain things that would be unqualified inDissent . But essentially, that was the only political theory that normative political theory let me do that. was taught back then in the Government Most of my writing was either from Department. But once I was at Princ- a social democratic position or from a eton, I began to talk to the philosophers Jewish perspective. I think political the- here. Bob Nozick was here and Stuart ory should be the work of people who Hampshire was a visiting professor at the have a political position that they want time—he in particular was very impor- to defend. There are certain rules about tant to me. While I was teaching, things academic discourse which shape how we were happening in the world. I was writ- defend a position, but that seems to me ing regularly for Dissent, and I went south what political theorists should be doing. in 1960 when sit-ins first began. When I wrote about the sit-ins in Dis- JPT: What is the role of your cultural and sent and about the doctrine of nonviolent political identity in guiding your work as protest, I found that what I wrote in Dis- a scholar? When Jürgen Habermas was sent was more interesting and more fun recently asked to comment on the politi- [52] JOURNAL OF POLITICAL THOUGHT

cal situation in , he responded that had grown up at a time when if you were it “is not the business of a private Ger- a Jew you would not be promoted at any man citizen of my generation.” Is political American university. So they became theory a universal project, or is it a form a certain kind of universalist, which I of interpretation within one’s tradition? though was not the right kind of univer- salism because it was borne out of fear. MW: I can understand why a German of I had one professor who we all thought his generation wouldn’t want to criticize was a Polish count, and then his broth- the Jews, although I’m not sure if that is er—who was a mathematician in Cali- the right response. Habermas as a sympa- fornia—published a memoir, in which thetic critic of Israel might be very help- he describes his Bar Mitzvah, and that ful. But there is something to Habermas’s was how we found out that our professor sentiment. For example, I oppose hate wasn’t a Polish count [laughter]. But there speech regulation in America but I favor wasn’t an inkling of anything. And I had it in Germany. There is a historical reason several professors like that, who were ex- to say that holocaust denial should not be posed in odd ways. Of course we relished tolerated in Germany. But in the United the exposure. But that affected the way States, it is just some nonsense that we they thought and wrote about the Shoah. have to put up with. When I give lectures in Germany, I am JPT: Many have described you as a com- always introduced as a “Jewish Ameri- munitarian. Do you think communitar- can,” which doesn’t happen when I speak ian is a helpful label? in . When I finish my lectures in Germany there is always a group of young MW: I’ve written a piece called “The people who pretend to ask questions. Communitarian Critique of ” One will say that he worked in a hospital which is an effort to define how I am a in Tel Aviv during the Iraq war, or visited communitarian and how I am not a com- 1 a kibbutz in the Galilee, or volunteered munitarian. As a definition of my posi- for service in the Negev. It is so touching, tion I would say I’m a very old fashioned it is as if they want me to forgive them social democrat. But another way of de- and they of course have nothing to be for- fining my own politics is that I’m a liberal given for and I have no authority to for- social democrat with regard to national politics and I’m a communitarian with give anybody. These people have a special regard to Jewish politics. One of the fea- view about the world and if they become tures of liberalism is that it creates a space political theorists it will certainly influ- where there can be many communities ence their work, as it should. For me, the and many different communitarianisms. way I write about the nation-state is in- For this reason I have been quite criti- fluenced by the fact that I believe the Jews cal of ’s effort to describe have a right to a nation-state of their own. a that is national I’m sure that cultural factors and per- in scope. His communitarianism is re- sonal factors have an influence on aca- publican, and it’s the of demic work. That manifests itself in many America in the 1840s. If you read his different ways. There was a whole genera- tion of academic Jews, some of them my 1 Walzer, Michael. "The Communitarian Critique of teachers, who were hiding because they Liberalism." Political Theory 18, no. 1 (1990): 6-23. VOL. 1, ISSUE 1 [53] book, what’s missing is the great immi- go wrong, we’ll be blamed, we’ll be the gration that transformed a relatively ho- scapegoats. But this didn’t worry my chil- mogenous Anglo-American into dren and grandchildren. They feel safe a radically pluralist society. I think it’s a here. I guess I still have a little bit of the mistake to try to define a nation-state in galut (exile) fearfulness, although much communitarian or even “small-r” repub- less than my parents. I was at Brandeis lican terms—when the republicanism is during the Rosenburg spy trial and I re- Rousseauian. It’s too hot, too warm an member my parents being very scared. embrace given the cultural differences in At Brandeis we circulated a petition a pluralist society.

JPT: Do you see the Jewish community as one community? Young people who grew up being told that Israel was or MW: It is and it isn’t. The Jewish com- was going to be a light unto munity is itself pluralist, and one of the “ the nations at some point are effects of American life—some would going to ask where is the light? say one of the effects of the experience of Protestantism—is to affect denomi- national pluralism within Judaism of a sort that isn’t the same but resembles de- against the death penalty for the Rosen- nominalization in the Protestant world. burgs as if we were American citizens In general, I think that’s a good thing. who had a right to argue about this as But above the denominational pluralism, much as anybody else. We weren’t scared, there is a Jewish communitarianism, a or at least weren’t as scared as my parent’s certain kind of Jewish solidarity that is generation. And my grandkids are much borne out of the sense of vulnerability. less scared than I am. But here we are. This is the best dias- JPT: From the communitarian perspec- pora ever. America America, the golden tive that you’ve been developing, is as- Medina. I remember that when I was similation in some way undesirable? elected president of the student council, the first thing I did was go to the principal MW: Yes. If assimilation means a loss and tell him that they have to stop play- of a Jewish history, of engagement with ing basketball on Friday night. And he Jewish texts, the loss of a commitment just smiled, and he was actually a smart to community institutions, I would be man and didn’t tell me that I was crazy. very unhappy about it. At the same time, In my class of 75 there were five Jews. I I want to be engaged in was elected president of student council, American politics. I worry sometimes and one other guy was elected president that we’re a little too prominent. This is of the senior class. Only in America, I an interesting generational difference. suppose. During the Clinton administration, the But some kind of assimilation is go- whole American financial structure ing to happen. I’m comforted by the fact was in the hands of Jewish economists. that there are fourth and fifth generation Clinton seemed to be a -semite, Reform Jews. Remember, in the mid-19th and my response was to worry. If things century, the Orthodox Jews were con- [54] JOURNAL OF POLITICAL THOUGHT

vinced that Reform Judaism was just the from a left perspective. What is the left slow process of disappearance. And it and why are you on it? isn’t. It wasn’t. Some might think that the culture of Reform Judaism is a little thin, MW: I grew up on the left, and my par- but it has been resilient, and it has gotten ents were sort of Popular Front lefties. We less thin than it was when I was a kid. read the daily newspaper in , PM, back when I.F. Stone and Max Le- JPT: Do you think young American Jews rner wrote for them. When we moved to today can have the same perspective on Johnstown, PA, my parents subscribed to Israel as Jews of the previous generation Stone’s weekly. Stone was a left journal- can? ist, something like Seymour Hersh today, so I grew up on the left. At Brandeis, Abe MW: Well, no. They’re going to be more Sachar put together a faculty by hiring critical. The impulse toward apology is all the professors who couldn’t get jobs going to be much less apparent. And I in McCarthyite America. So it was a left- think that the Israelis should be think- leaning faculty. ing about that. They need to recognize For me, the key idea of the left is egali- that there is a generational difference and tarianism. I think of the left as the place that they can’t call upon the same kind of where hierarchy is resisted and authority automatic sympathy and solidarity. They diffused. So I live on the left, but I spend a will have to earn it. I’m sure that young lot of time arguing with my neighbors. At people who grew up being told that Israel Brandeis I encountered the anti-Stalinist was or was going to be a light unto the democratic leftists who foundedDissent nations at some point are going to ask magazine. They were ex-Trotskyites who where is the light? abandoned the world of sectarian Marx- ism, and they founded Dissent as an effort to create a non-sectarian and anti-com- I think of the left as the place munist left. where hierarchy is resisted I found this all very appealing and, coming home from Brandeis, I told my and authority diffused. parents I wanted to become an intellec- “ tual and they gave the classic response: “from this you can make a living?” I’m a very strong advocate whenever I get a chance to talk to younger people of JPT: In a piece for NY Magazine, Jona- what Shlomo Avineri calls “Chetzi Aliya” than Chait recently drew a distinction be- (half an Aliya). If you’re not going to tween ‘liberals’ and ‘leftists.’ Liberals hold move to Israel, then visit often, establish onto the classic enlightenment tradition professional connections, learn Hebrew if that prizes individual and a free you can, and send your kids for a semes- political marketplace, whereas the left ter here or there. But it’s now a minority, comes from a Marxist tradition that em- I think, of American Jews who have even phasizes class solidarity. Is this a mean- been to Israel. The world changes. ingful distinction?

JPT: You described your politics as com- MW: Leftists are egalitarians and some- ing from the Jewish perspective but also times the defense of equality involves VOL. 1, ISSUE 1 [55] restrictions on individual activity, espe- poll people in a certain way about par- cially entrepreneurial activity. But the ticular goods or particular programs, like kind of left that we tried to create around the Medicare program, you do find very Dissent was a liberal left. widespread support for programs that wrote an article to this effect during the are in fact redistributive. I think there is a early years of Dissent. Here was an ex- lot of support for redistributive programs Trotskyite recognizing the importance of that no one has been able to mobilize po- individual freedom. But we are not liber- litically. I think there is a lot of anxiety tarians who view the notion of choice as over the extent of inequality in American the central right of the individual. life today. I was very surprised during the I’m a strong believer in public educa- Occupy Wall Street movement. I don’t tion, for example. I wouldn’t ban paro- know if you visited any of the Occupy chial schools but I would try to create sites, but they were very ragtag. It was not such attractive public schools that people a spectacle that one would think would will be drawn to them. I would allow appeal to ordinary Americans. And yet, some choice within the public system- the polling done during those months -there can be high schools with different demonstrated high rates of support for emphases like music, art or science and the particular issues of student debt, there can be choice. But I would defend a helping people with mortgages, etc... strong public system. But we haven’t won the ideological ar- I would favor tight regulation of the gument, although it looked in the 60s as drug industry even if that restricts the if we were winning. The enthusiastic re- freedom of entrepreneurs to sell quack ception of Rawls’s book at the time made cures. A decent society is one in which me optimistic. The reception was espe- there is a big space for creative activ- cially enthusiastic in law schools, which I ity—even entrepreneurial activity—but thought might mean something in terms there are limits set by the rights of oth- of practice. I remember there was even ers and the needs of a society for some this one Harvard professor who thought kind of mutuality. Mutuality involves “well now that Rawls has shown that the taking money from the very rich to help two principles of justice are right, the the very poor and sometimes may in- Supreme Court should start enforcing volve conscription for military service them.” It may be that the failure of that or required jury service. There are many moment had a lot more to do with the examples of communal impositions on Vietnam War, with the New Left, with the individual rights for the sake of solidarity counterculture, that discredited the argu- and mutuality. ments for distributive justice. But I don’t have a good answer for why. People talk JPT: Why do you think that distributive about , the pioneer spirit, justice has failed as a political currency the effect of the frontier, the effect of -im in the , to the point where migration and the radical pluralization “redistribution” has become a dirty word of American life such that there was not among politicians? a coherent working class—there are lots of explanations but none of them seem to MW: This is a question about politi- me entirely satisfactory. cal defeat. First of all, I’m not sure that The Supreme Court gets it wrong, for I want to acknowledge the failure. If you example, on the issue of money in poli- [56] JOURNAL OF POLITICAL THOUGHT

tics. It may be simply that the acceptance ful. There is the Civil Rights Movement, of gross inequality in political influence now reborn partly out of the agitation of is the result of political influence. The police killings. There is the pro-immi- increasing power of money in Ameri- gration movement, led by Hispanic but can politics is the result of a number of also Asian people, which has produced factors, perhaps most importantly the interesting political moments. There is demobilization of the labor movement, possibly a revolt of students in debt—this which was the major countervailing was a very important part of the Occupy power to American capital. Cultural divi- movement. But the fragments don’t come sions on the Left have made our politics together, and that’s been our problem very difficult. There’s a story to tell there, for a long time. For me, the anomaly of which I don’t think has been adequately American politics in recent years is that we had the partial success of the Civil Rights Movement, which has changed black life in America for the better. We “The Straussians treated had the considerable success of the femi- me with a remarkable nist movement, which has radically al- combination of deference tered the composition of the American “ and condescension. They political and economic worlds. We had showed deference because the astonishing success of the gay rights movement. It came very fast. Each of they believed in hierarchy these movements has made America a and authority, and I was a more egalitarian place, and yet at the same professor. But they showed time, America has become a less egalitar- condescension because I did ian place overall. This is something that not know the Truth. needs to be thought about. The particu- laristic movements have succeeded, but they have somehow gone along with, and maybe helped to produce, growing eco- told, with regards to the effect of the 60s nomic inequality. Perhaps, in some ways, on American politics. We thought we these particularistic movements have were winning. But in fact, we created the even legitimized economic inequality. If Reagan Democrats and, because of the there’s a black middle class, maybe it de- culture of the anti-war movement and flects attention from the persistence of a counterculture, we antagonized many of black underclass. the people who are natural allies. The re- sult is a left that cannot act effectively in JPT: An issue you mentioned earlier—a the political world. tension between the demands of a lib- eral secular society and communitarian- JPT: Why is it that the left cannot act ef- ism—is education. What’s the purpose of fectively in today’s political world? education? Is it to instill some sense of civic virtue? Is it maybe to promote some MW: There has been a theory for some Rawlsian “primary goods”? And how time on the idea of a fragmented left. much leeway should we give to minority There is the feminist movement, which communities in running their own edu- is very important and partially success- cational systems? This is of course an ex- VOL. 1, ISSUE 1 [57] plosive issue among religious groups like league was , who was a the Haredim in Israel. Straussian political theorist, and we were both hired at the same time. The depart- MW: I think about this a lot, especially in ment was so divided that they asked the the Israeli case, but also in the American dean if they could appoint two people. case. I have talked a bit about the impor- In those days, budgets were expanding, tance and coerciveness of public educa- and the department had enough mon- tion. I do not think that children belong, ey to do so. Harvey and I taught, and certainly not exclusively, to their parents. we were very polite with each other. I If a Haredi child in Israel is going to grow told my students that they had to take a up to vote in Israeli elections, then all Is- course with him, and he told his the op- raelis have an interest in the education posite. I taught a graduate seminar on of that child, because that child is going Hobbes. I would have taught Rousseau, to help determine the fate of their chil- but Judith Shklar had Rousseau. There dren in a democratic society. So, I would were always Straussian students in the have no hesitation in enforcing some seminar. The Straussians treated me with requirements for civic education on the a remarkable combination of deference Haredim. And I mean really enforcing and condescension. They showed defer- it. I would require that of all parochial ence because they believed in hierarchy schools in America as well. In Wisconsin and authority, and I was a professor. But v. Yoder [the U.S. Supreme Court case they showed condescension because I that dealt with Amish children being did not know the Truth. Some of them placed under compulsory education], the did it sweetly, and some of them not so Amish wanted an early release from high sweetly [laughter]. school. That was an accommodation for So, education for virtue means that the Amish who are not going to partici- there has to be agreement within com- pate in the American political system (I munity and society about what virtue don’t think they vote). So my view of it is is, and so I would stick with something if they were actively participating in the that we are more likely to have agreement American political system, I would want on, about how a good citizen needs to be them to have a certain kind of education well-informed and have a critical intelli- in American history, in the political the- gence, so far as we can produce that in ory of , and in knowing some- a school. Education is also socialization. thing about how the institutional life of For instance, if in school you have a pro- the country works. I would want them to gram on Memorial Day, that’s going to even know something about American produce a certain kind of person. When literature, as that is another reflection I was in school in Johnstown, Pennsylva- of the culture in which they are going nia in the years after World War II, Me- to participate. I feel very strongly about morial Day was a very important holiday. that. So, education is a matter of demo- We would march from the school to the cratic citizenship. cemetery, and no one was absent. There An education for virtue, at least in would always be a priest and sometimes the Straussian sense, is something I am a rabbi, and the mayor would be present. not exactly sure about. I’ve had a long It was a very emotional moment, because engagement with Straussian thought. everyone had relatives who were in and When I was teaching at Harvard, my col- oftentimes killed in the war. This type [58] JOURNAL OF POLITICAL THOUGHT

of thing produced patriotism, and the been a critique of secularism, which is schools were a part of that. We marched partly justified, but which is designed to with our teachers to the cemetery. In fact, apologize for some of the religious stuff I think it was a very bad idea to make that shouldn’t be apologized for. Memorial Day the nearest Monday in- Now Habermas has talked about a stead of May 30th. This had the effect of post-secular age and a need to think dif- transforming what was a serious holiday ferently about religion from the way we to what is now a long weekend. In Princ- once thought about religion. But I’m not eton, there is still is a march on Memorial sure that has reached deeply into political Day, but a lot of people aren’t there. theory.

JPT: Do you think civic education is be- JPT: Methodology is always a contested ing imparted effectively in U.S. schools, topic within political theory. For many or do we need to be paying more atten- years you’ve been a scholar at the Insti- tion to it? tute for Advanced Study at Princeton, which has made an enormous impact in MW: I don’t think we’re doing very well the social sciences, straddling the lines generally when it comes to education. between positive and normative work. Certainly inner city schools are under- Can you reflect on your time as a scholar funded, and the testing regime is a big here and how it’s shaped the way you do mistake. My daughter is the co-principal political theory? of an alternative public high school in the area, and her school gets MW: It was four of us doing social sci- exemption from the testing but has to ence: Albert Hirschman, Clifford Geertz, fight against the bureaucrats every year. and Joan Scott. This was a very unusual We’re not devoting enough money to ed- group. We were all committed to an un- ucation. We have not created or made the scientific social science. You don’t do teaching of our children into a career that comparative politics by studying data commands respect and a decent income. sets, but instead by spending time in a relevant area. It was a commitment to II. Political Theory Today field work—to what Geertz called thick —and to theory and history. JPT: What’s not being talked about There was a generation, the next after enough among political theorists right Geertz’s, of anthropologists who went now? What deserves more attention? into the field and wrote about themselves, about how guilty they felt being white MW: To be honest, I don’t read a lot of men in New Guinea. It was this moment academic political theory these days. of narcissism and Cliff hated that. Some My general criticism of contemporary people blamed him for it, but he hated it. academic culture is that I think politi- Albert Hirschman was an economist cal theorists have considerable difficulty in development economics, and visited recognizing the global religious revival, many development projects in Latin especially when it comes to addressing America. He spent years in Colombia. He Islamic zealotry. That’s a critique of, I didn’t do game theory, or rational choice, suppose, some of my friends on the left. so it was a particular kind of social sci- Among some political theorists, there has ence, and it did have an influence. Right VOL. 1, ISSUE 1 [59] now my experience is that big social sci- and for me, political theory involves a ence, with its teams of researchers and commitment to the study of politics, a data sets, is triumphant. This includes commitment to the political world and theory which is not normative theory some kind of engagement with it. Bob but which is rational choice. I think the Nozick was of course very smart. Anar- crucial thing to notice is that recently, chy, State, and Utopia is a brilliant book every book and article written here had and it became a manifesto of sorts for lib- a single author. There were no teams of ertarians. But Bob Nozick was not a po- researchers. I spent five years reading litical person. It’s a very playful book. At a military history before I wrote about the certain point later in his life he would say justice and injustice of war. That’s just the “well, really you have to support the wel- way we all worked. We didn’t theorize by fare state”—whereas Shklar and I were reading other people’s theories, and we very serious about the political positions stuck close to the real world. that we took. Maybe that’s part of the dif- ference between political theory and phi- JPT: On that last point, there was a blog losophy. post several years ago on the difference between political theory and political JPT: What about the difference between philosophy. It opens by asking: “What is it Spheres of Justice on the one hand and that differentiates , Christine Just and Unjust War on the other? Why Korsgaard, Tom Scanlon, Brian Barry is it that Just and Unjust War reads more etc and their students and admirers from as moral philosophy while Spheres of Jus- Michael Walzer, Judith Shklar, George tice, to the extent that we are adopting Kateb, , and their students these categories, reads more as political and admirers? Why do the former often theory? look at the latter and say “where’s the ar- gument,” and why do the latter often look MW: Well certainly my philosopher at the former and say “what’s the point.””2 friends liked Just and Unjust War much What’s your reaction to that dichotomy? more than they liked Spheres of Justice. And I did make an effort inJust and Un- MW: It’s a group of similars on the philo- just War to ground the theory on some sophical side, and a group of dissimilars account of . But really in the on the political theory side, although book I was much more concerned with the latter didn’t include . I’ve being able to make specific judgments never been very clear on the difference. about particular wars and particular ways When I went to school with the philoso- of fighting than I was concerned with the phers, I did sense there was something philosophical grounding. But what made different about what I wanted to do and Just and Unjust Wars acceptable to my what they were doing. And to me the philosopher friends was the simple fact difference was epitomized in their com- that since wars are fought across cultural mitment to hypothetical cases, often and religious boundaries, the arguments extremely weird hypotheticals, and my about when and how to fight have to be commitment to historical and contem- comprehensible on both sides. The ar- porary examples. Certainly for Shklar guments have to be developed and ar- ticulated in a universal idiom. And so 2 http://profs-polisci.mcgill.ca/levy/theory- the argument in Just and Unjust Wars is philosophy.html [60] JOURNAL OF POLITICAL THOUGHT

a universalist argument of the sort that since it was possible, organized philosophers like. themselves to produce longevity. That But when it came to distributive jus- underlying agreement is very deep. There tice, it seemed to me that the principles may be some cultural differences still— that govern the distribution of particular Christian Scientists don’t accept medi- goods have to be relative to the mean- cine, for example—but the agreement is ing of those goods for the people among deep enough to provide a basis for the whom they are being distributed. I took legitimate distribution. that to be a universal statement, but it The other example I’ve used is the idea leads to a very particularistic argument— of life as a project, life as a career, which and that the philosophers didn’t like. wasn’t at all common historically. But

JPT: Taking the example of distributive justice, how can we go about searching I always found it curious that within traditions when there seems to be such widespread disagreement? my fellow leftists, who are radical critics of American MW: This is a frequent criticism I’ve tried “ society, at the same time to address in some of the essays in Thick thought that all of the world and Thin. I think that the experience of should look like America. living together in a common political and economic system does produce, most of the time, a sufficient set of what I call shared meanings for the most important some time beginning with the French social goods in society. My favorite ex- Revolution and the careers open to talent, ample is the “cure of souls, cure of bod- the idea that you could be an entrepre- ies.” In the Middle Ages, the cure of souls neur, you could plan your life—became a was very important and it was therefore dominant cultural idea even when the life socialized. Tithes were collected, parishes you were planning could be very different were established, churches were built, depending on religious and cultural tra- communion was enforced, and all this ditions. That is what made it impossible was supposed to produce salvation. But to sustain nepotism and made it very dif- as belief faded, people became skeptical ficult to sustain things like quota systems about the possibility of the cure of souls, and discrimination. but increasingly confident in the cure of I certainly acknowledge cultural plu- bodies. And as it became clear that you ralism, but in my arguments about com- could cure bodies, the cure of bodies was munitarianism, I always argued that the socialized, beginning with public health. political system and the economic system We are the laggards here in the United had to be open. It’s the cultural world States. In the rest of the world, the cure where people have a right to create so- of bodies was socialized, and that’s be- cieties, schools, publishing houses, and cause whatever differences there were in religious institutions to sustain a com- different religious traditions about the mon culture. But if you have a common meaning of the body, there was a grow- political and economic life, I think my ing recognition that while eternity was argument about distribution will work uncertain, longevity was possible. And most of the time. VOL. 1, ISSUE 1 [61]

JPT: It has been almost 40 years since zbollah. Just and Unjust Wars was published. If It is possible to win asymmetric wars, as you were rewriting it today, what, if any- the Sri Lankans proved against the Tamil thing, would you change? Tiger rebels, but only if you are prepared to kill high numbers of civilians and the MW: I don’t think I would change much world isn’t watching. But you can’t win if in the arguments. I would expand some you are trying to fight according to the of the sections. In the 5th edition, I wrote a moral rules of engagement. That is the new preface on asymmetric warfare. This general problem of asymmetric warfare. The critical problem of jus in bello in is similar to what I say about guerilla war asymmetric warfare is the question, what but I would say more now. I also wrote a risks do you ask your soldiers to take in postscript responding to revisionists. order to reduce the risks that they are I might write the chapter on interven- imposing on the civilian population, tion a little differently. I still believe that among whom the insurgents are hiding. the default should be non-intervention This is a big problem for the American and intervention has to be justified. But army and the IDF. It is much debated in the 90s, I found myself justifying inter- and I have participated in those debates ventions in places like Rwanda and Dar- in both countries. In Israel, I usually do fur, so I might write more about that now. so along with Israeli friends. I signed and partly wrote a piece about the Gaza War along with .3 We argued that there must be a commitment on the The dominant idea of the army’s side to accept risks in order to re- secular state emerges from the duce the risks that they impose on civil- ians. We were arguing with Asa Kasher, divisiveness of the religious an Israeli philosopher, and Amos Yadlin, “ world. head of army intelligence and later La- bor candidate for Minister of Defense. Of course, even though we were arguing JPT: Can you say more about asymmet- with one another, I was hoping Yadlin ric warfare? would win as Minister of Defense.

MW: Asymmetric warfare is a military JPT: Could you speak to your opinion on conflict between a high tech army, like private military contractors and the nor- the American army or IDF, and a low mative dimensions of having others fight tech insurgency. The most important fact your wars? about asymmetric warfare, which people find hard to understand or acknowledge, MW: Years ago I wrote a piece for The is that the high tech army usually doesn’t New Republic on private prisons, and win. Americans didn’t win in Vietnam, 20 years later I wrote a piece on private military contractors. My argument is nor have we won in Afghanistan. And we that when the state authorizes coercion haven’t been able to defeat the Sunni or Shiite militias in Iraq. The Israelis have 3 http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2009/ not had success defeating Hamas or He- may/14/israel-civilians-combatants/ [62] JOURNAL OF POLITICAL THOUGHT

it must be in full control of this coercion tion of Norwegianess. And no one in the and take responsibility for it. So I think world finds this objectionable so long as that private prisons and military contrac- they are tolerant—they weren’t always tors are terrible. You can contract out the tolerant, as there were decades of dis- army kitchen or some of the transporta- crimination against the Lapps—but once tion perhaps, but you cannot contract out they decided to be both Norwegian and anything that involves the use of force. multicultural, they ended discrimina- Insofar as the contract soldiers are armed tion, and they’ve done a lot of work to and likely to engage in armed conflict, bring the Lapps into a decent place. They they cannot be private agents. They must have accommodated or tried to accom- be subject to military discipline and mili- modate immigration from Macedonia or tary justice, which means that they must Finland or from Eastern Europe. So long be in uniform. as they do that saying: “this is the nation- state of the Norwegian people. We study III. Israel, Nationhood, and Toleration Norwegian history, we study Norwegian literature in the state schools. But there JPT: In your book On Toleration you de- are non-Norwegians in the country, and scribe two types of toleration regimes, there is plenty of room for them to orga- one of them is the immigration society— nize their own cultural and religious insti- the US and Canada for example—the tutions. And we will also teach their part other is the nation-state. I’m curious how of the history of Norway in our schools.” the navigates toleration given This seems to me perfectly legitimate. that there is a dominant group. The most remarkable thing about American history in contrast to this is MW: Yes, I of course am the product of that moment starting in the 1840s, when an immigrant society. And I always found the Anglo-American settlers who must it curious that my fellow leftists, who are have imagined they were creating an radical critics of American society, at the Anglo-American nation state like the same time thought that all of the world nation-states of Europe, allowed them- should look like America. Their critique selves to become a minority in their own of the nation-state was based on a vi- country. Of course, this was not entirely sion of America. Against that and partly willingly—there were the “know-noth- because I was a Zionist, I had to defend ings,” who wanted to make naturalization the nation-state. I had to defend a kind a 25-year process instead of a five-year of liberal nationalism. And that, it seems process. But over a period of time the to me, is not such a difficult thing to do. Anglo-Americans, for whatever reasons Since I don’t want to start these argu- and with whatever resentments, allowed ments with Israel, I always start with themselves to become a minority here. Norway. In 1905, Norway seceded from No one expects the Danes, Norwegians, the Swedish Empire, and the reason for French or Japanese to do that. It’s not go- the secession was that they were afraid of ing to happen because these nations exist losing their Norwegianess; indeed, they as homelands for a people who have been were losing a history, a language, and a there for a very long time. America be- sense of themselves as a people. So they came what Horace Kallen called the “na- created Norway, and the Norwegian state tion of nationalities,” but that’s not going became a little engine for the reproduc- to happen in other countries and there’s VOL. 1, ISSUE 1 [63] no reason to think that it has to happen. ous religious groups. I’m in favor of a generous policy of asy- lum, and I think the Europeans should JPT: Related to this alleged tension be- be taking in more of the refugees from tween secularism and democracy, some Africa and the Middle East than they are critics like have argued now. But they have the right to control in essence that Israel cannot be a demo- the immigration such that their grand- cratic state. children will grow up in a state that is still French or that is still Danish. MW: I do think that, with the exception of Protestantism, all the religions I know JPT: Does toleration require a dominant of—in their theories of political gover- culture? Given the argument you make nance—are incompatible with democ- in Spheres of Justice—that different com- racy, because all want some sort of over- munities share different understandings all ecclesiastical authority. The Catholics of social goods—must toleration be one didn’t make their with democracy of the goods that is shared among the dif- until after WWII with the creation of the ferent groups? Christian Democratic Party, and that was very late. They believed that the Pope MW: I think toleration has to become and the Bishop should have some kind of dominant, but it doesn’t become domi- control over political life. nant because it is advocated or defend- So, if there is a religion in which the ed by a dominant group. The history of governing authorities are people who are Western toleration is closely connected supposedly acquainted with the word of to Protestantism and to what Edmund God, then democracy is enormously dif- Burke called the “dissidence of dissent.” If ficult, and maybe not possible. So, that’s you look at the history of Protestantism, why the separation of church and state in you have Lutheranism and Anglicanism the Christian world was such a long, dif- challenged by Presbyterianism chal- ficult, and necessary process. In the Jew- lenged by Congregationalism challenged ish world, the entanglement of religion by Methodism challenged by Baptism, and politics is very tight, for the simple challenged by more radical Baptists and reason that we did not have a state. The then by still more radical Baptists, and state is the place in which the struggle separatists of all sorts. And none of them for separation takes place, and the only wanted the state to support any of the place in which it can happen. If you do others. And so it is the radical pluralism not have a state, you will then have an es- of Protestantism that is the chief source pecially radical entanglement. of toleration and of the understanding of was about disentanglement. a secular state. The dominant idea of the The Zionists wanted a state that was about secular state emerges from the divisive- ethnic Jewry—understanding that reli- ness of the religious world. gious Jewry was something else entirely. Now toleration has other forms, like in These ethnic Jews could be religious the millet system of the Ottoman Empire. Jews, but they did not have to be. And That is a different model of toleration and some of the early Zionists did believe that quite common in imperial states, because the ethnic Jew could be a Muslim, a Bud- the imperial state is not interested in dhist, whatever. If you believed in Jewish changing religions, but in ruling the vari- peoplehood, then the Jewish people had [64] JOURNAL OF POLITICAL THOUGHT

to be like any other people—just like a es the Law of Return provides. At some Frenchman can be a Jew or a Catholic. point maybe there will not be the law of But that entanglement makes things diffi- return. But, the influence of Orthodox cult. That was the aspiration, and to some parties is such that it is very difficult to degree Israel does represent a separation. change the conversion now. If ever And insofar as it does represent a separa- there were peace, there would be a cul- tion, Israel can be a democracy. tural war in Israel, and I think the secu- lars would win. Now in the Ottoman Millet system, The paradox of liberation is which is the source of Israeli family law, that these liberation militants there are various religious courts and there is no civil marriage—you have to were trying to liberate their choose one or another religious court to “ people from the culture of marry. The current system is only dis- their people. criminatory against atheists. There is no civil marriage in Israel and, again, that’s another cultural issue. But, it is not only Jews who oppose civil marriage in Israel. If Dworkin thinks that something like The Muslims and Christians also aren’t in the Law of Return is undemocratic be- favor of civil marriage. cause it is discriminatory, I think some- That being said, I don’t see any reason thing like the law of return depends on why the Israeli Supreme Court—which historical circumstance. If there comes a regularly refers in its decision–making to time that Jews around the world are no Ottoman and British law and under Jus- longer in any danger, I would favor repeal tice Barak regularly refers to American of the Law of Return, and I think a lot of constitutional law—could not also refer people have that view. On the other hand, to halakha when making some decision if you look at when the Soviet Union about some issue on which there is some collapsed, Finland offered citizenship to interesting halakhic position. I don’t see the Russo-Fins—they constituted 20,000 any reason why they shouldn’t take hal- people or so. Nobody thought that this akha into account, in much the same meant Finland could not be a democracy. way that the Israeli Supreme Court takes many legal systems into account. JPT: For a case like Israel, though, where there is an entanglement between reli- JPT: In your work on national libera- gious and cultural heritage, how should tion, you speak about originally secular the secular state deal with areas that are national movements slowly succumbing influenced by Jewish law? to religious extremism. Does this reflect something about the difficulty of preserv- MW: The secular state should not be reg- ing cultural pluralism without succumb- ulating conversion. I think so far as the ing to religious extremism? secular state is concerned, anybody who calls himself or herself a Jew and is a Jew MW: When I gave a book talk about this, for the purposes of the state (the Rabbis somebody shouted out from the audi- can have other criteria, but for the state), ence: “you should be more worried about he or she is entitled to whatever privileg- the physical reproduction of the secular VOL. 1, ISSUE 1 [65] left!” Which is absolutely true. Around body visits his grave today yet thousands Dissent, there are all these young people visit the graves of Rabbis in the Galilee. who are not getting married and are not My argument in the book is that the having children. Brandeis was full of Red secularism of the liberation militants was diaper babies in the 1950s when I was both too confident and too radical. They there [laughter]. all believed in the academic theory of One of my arguments is that the secu- inevitable secularization. As Nehru said, lar culture of these revolutionary move- the triumph of science and reason was ments was somehow too thin. I’m not inevitable. And their rejection of the old exactly sure how to explain the thinness. religious culture was too radical. What On one level, there is a certain artificiality needed to happen and what can still hap- to it. The French revolutionaries tried to pen is a critical engagement with the create a ten-day week to correspond with culture. My books on the Jewish politi- the decimal system, but nobody liked a cal tradition represent this type of critical ten-day week because you had to wait so engagement with the traditional culture. much longer to get a day of rest. They also We have followed Oliver Cromwell who had a Festival of Reason, with Robespi- said to a state portraitist, “I want to be erre presiding and there were civic oaths painted warts and all.” We have presented but all this didn’t take. And why didn’t it the tradition warts and all. The chapter take? Well some of it was just silly, Robe- on gentiles in the second volume has spierre in the robes of a Roman. some awful stuff in it, but we think it’s But on another level, the lifecycle is important to confront both what we like marked with religious rituals and cer- and what we don’t like. emonies. There is birth, coming of age, I think there are models for the kind marriage, and ultimately death. When of engagement with tradition that could you abolish these rituals and nothing work. One of the organizations I talk replaces them you just have these aw- about in the book is “Women Living ful moments of silence at a funeral of an under Muslim Laws.” This is a group of atheist, where nobody knows what to say mostly religious women, who are com- or when to cry. mitted feminists, looking through Mus- lim sources, and reinterpreting Sharia in JPT: Do you see the project of creating a order to naturalize their feminism into secular national identity in these nation- the tradition. And that’s what a lot of Jew- states as unsustainable? ish orthodox feminists are trying to do by rereading biblical and Talmudic texts. MW: The liberationists wanted to cre- That’s the model for what should have ate a new Indian, a new Jew, a new Al- happened much earlier. These people are gerian. They talk about newness all the going to produce something that will still time. And they tried to provide new be liberationist, but that won’t offend and holidays or new interpretations of old deny the tradition of their own people. holidays. Hannukah become the celebra- The paradox of liberation is that these tion of religious freedom and Passover liberation militants were trying to liber- became about national liberation. Joseph ate their people from the culture of their Trumpeldore was this early Zionist hero people. This is a project that inevitably who died uttering the Hebrew equivalent produced resentment, anger, and eventu- of “it is good to die for one’s country.” No- ally religious reaction. [66] JOURNAL OF POLITICAL THOUGHT

Again America is an interesting case here because even among some religious groups, there was a strong commitment to the idea of a secular state. I’ll leave you with my favorite story. In 1810, Congress passed a law saying that mail had to be delivered seven days a week. This pro- duced a Sabbatarian uprising among the established protestant groups, especially the Presbyterians and Anglicans. There is this famous moment when the mail coach was stopped on Nassau Street here in Princeton, New Jersey, by a group of Presbyterian militants, who insisted that the driver get out of the coach, stay over- night in Princeton and resume delivery on Monday. In 1829, this issue came back to Congress where it was sent to the Committee on Post Office and Post Roads, which was chaired by an evangeli- cal Baptist from Kentucky, Richard Men- tor Johnson. He writes this extraordinary document in which he argues that the United States Congress cannot recognize a religious day of rest. Mail has to be de- livered seven days a week. This is what the requires. This story seems to epitomize the radi- calness of the early republic. Today, you could not imagine Evangelicals from Kentucky insisting that the mail must be delivered on Sunday.