Tuesday Volume 518 16 November 2010 No. 72

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 16 November 2010

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 723 16 NOVEMBER 2010 724

it. Can my right hon. Friend assure me that the new House of Commons Office of Tax Simplification will sort out this complexity sooner rather than later? Tuesday 16 November 2010 Mr Osborne: I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. A few months ago, he and I visited some small businesses The House met at half-past Two o’clock in his constituency, many of which were suffering under the burden of a tax code that has grown from 4,900-odd pages in 1997 to 11,500 pages today. The Office of Tax PRAYERS Simplification is specifically looking at the taxation of small businesses as well as at the issue of tax reliefs. The [MR SPEAKERINTHECHAIR] small business report will be coming out later next year, but we will get an interim report in time for the Budget. BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) REDFERN INQUIRY (Lab): I add the congratulations of this side of the Resolved, House to Prince William and Catherine Middleton on their engagement. If they need a photographer, I understand That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, That that there is one available now. There has been a nice she will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House a Return of the Report, dated 16 November juxtaposition of announcements this morning. Does 2010, of the Redfern Inquiry into human tissue analysis in UK the Chancellor think that he is aiding tax simplification nuclear facilities.—(Mr Goodwill.) by raising VAT to a nice round 20%, and does he agree with his Cabinet colleague, the Business Secretary, who Mr Speaker: I should like to make a short statement once described an increase in VAT as following the announcement from Clarence house today “a tax on the poor to absolve the sins of the rich.” ? of the engagement of Prince William to Miss Catherine Middleton. I am sure that Members from both sides of Mr Osborne: I have to say to the shadow Chancellor the House will join me in congratulating the couple on that his position on VAT is completely incoherent. It is this most happy occasion, and wishing them all the very well known that my predecessor, the right hon. Member best for their future together. for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), was planning a VAT increase, had pressed the Prime Minister at the time for a VAT increase, and—he is in the Chamber so perhaps he can confirm this—when asked about it on Oral Answers to Questions “The Andrew Marr Show” after the election, said that of course he would have gone ahead with one.

TREASURY Alan Johnson: That was not the question. The fact that one looks at every available tax before reaching a conclusion is nothing new. The conclusion we reached The Chancellor of the Exchequer was asked— is that VAT should not be increased and that national insurance should be. The Liberal Democrats have been Office of Tax Simplification very fair in the way that they have betrayed the electorate. They have broken promises across the age divide—children, 1. Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): What students and pensioners—so there is no age discrimination recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of there. The Conservatives specifically said that they would the Office of Tax Simplification. [23963] not increase VAT. During the election campaign, we said that if they did not increase national insurance, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): they would increase VAT. The Prime Minister denied May I add my congratulations to the couple and say that and said that they had no plans to increase VAT. that we wish them every happiness? I am not sure that He said that VAT was they will be particularly interested in this answer, but I “very regressive, it hits the poorest the hardest”. hope that the House will be. I can promise Members that it does. We are now in the The Office of Tax Simplification was created by the unique situation in which we face a tax rise that our coalition Government in July to reduce the complexity Prime Minister has promised will affect “the poorest of a tax code that has doubled in size over the past the hardest”. At the time, the Conservatives said that an decade. Last week, the office produced a comprehensive increase in national insurance would be “a tax on jobs”. list of the 1,042 reliefs that now exist in the tax system. The Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development By the time of next year’s Budget, we will have received said that it would lead to 75,000 jobs being lost while an its advice on which reliefs can be simplified or abolished increase in VAT would cost 250,000 jobs. to be consistent with the Government’s wider objectives.

Michael Ellis: I congratulate my right hon. Friend on Mr Speaker: Can we have a question from the shadow establishing the Office of Tax Simplification. He will be Chancellor? aware that the tax system in this country is labyrinthine in its complexity, and small businesses in my constituency Alan Johnson: Why is the Chancellor proceeding with of Northampton North have been adversely affected by this tax on jobs that hits the poorest the hardest? 725 Oral Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 726

Mr Osborne: This is what the former Chancellor said Mr Osborne: First, next year, the pension will be on “The Andrew Marr Show”. Andrew Marr said: linked to the retail prices index number for September— “We now read from Peter Mandelson’s book”— 4.6%. That will be a welcome support for pensioners remember, he was in the Cabinet with the shadow from April. However, I should make the broader point Chancellor— that of course, re-linking pensions and guaranteeing through our commitment that they will go up either in “that you were quite keen on the idea of VAT going up.” line with earnings or prices, or by 2.5%, is a really Alistair Darling replied, “Well yeah, obviously”. substantial boost for pensioners. That reflects the fact We have taken the decisions necessary to restore that many pensioners have worked hard and saved hard some fiscal credibility to this country. We have a leaked all their lives. I am glad that that was one of the first memo from the shadow Chancellor’s office. It states: policy announcements of this coalition Government. “Fiscal discipline is if anything more essential in opposition than it is in government.” Mrs Grant: What fiscal action will the Chancellor take to assist voluntary sector organisations, which do That is from the shadow Chancellor’s office, but the so much to help our pensioners? truth is that he cannot tell us where a penny of his £44 billion spending cuts would come from. He had two Mr Osborne: The spending review set out a £470 million tax policies until the weekend—on graduates and 50p—and package of support for the voluntary sector, including announced that he did not agree with them. Frankly, an endowment fund and a transition fund. In addition, until he gets his act together and comes forward with a the big society bank, which will be funded by dormant credible economic policy, he will not be heard. bank accounts, will provide a new source of finance for the sector. The Government completely understand the Several hon. Members rose— incredible role that such organisations play in supporting elderly people in our community, and we want to help Mr Speaker: Order. From now on, first of all, exchanges them to do so. must be shorter. Secondly, let it be clear beyond doubt that Ministers answer for the policies of the Government, Nick de Bois: Many pensioners in my constituency not for those of the Opposition. That is the end of the have made representations to me because they are fed matter. up with having to buy annuities at 75. What plans does the Chancellor have to change the flexibility of that Pensioners (Fiscal Assistance) policy? Mr Osborne: We will remove the requirement to 2. Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): What fiscal purchase an annuity by the age of 75. Draft legislation measures he has introduced to provide assistance for will be published in December, and we want the new pensioners since his appointment. [23964] rules in place by 2011, although we have also introduced transitional arrangements to help those who have reached The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): the age of 75 since I made the announcement in the With your permission, Mr Speaker, if I dare ask for it, I Budget. We think that people who have been responsible should like to answer this question with questions 6 enough to save through their working lives are responsible and 7. enough to handle their savings in retirement.

6. Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Will the (Con): What fiscal measures he has introduced to provide Chancellor commit to working closely with the Minister assistance for pensioners since his appointment. [23969] of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb) to introduce 7. Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): What fiscal the universal, flat-rate, minimum pension for all citizens measures he has introduced to provide assistance for as quickly as possible? pensioners since his appointment. [23970] Mr Osborne: Yes, absolutely. The Treasury is working with the Department for Work and Pensions on potential Mr Osborne: Even in these constrained times, the pension reform that could simplify pensions and provide coalition Government have been able to find additional a boost to pensioners for many years to come. assistance for pensioners. We have re-linked the basic state pension to earnings and provided a triple guarantee Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab): Pensioners, that the basic state pension will be raised by the higher including many of those on low incomes, spend a of earnings, prices or 2.5% from next April. We have disproportionate amount of their income on fuel. The also protected other key pensioner benefits and made Chancellor made the point about the winter fuel allowance, the previous Government’s temporary pre-election increase which was very welcome, but will he make it clear to the in cold weather payments permanent, because this gas and electricity suppliers that, when they raise fuel Government treat pensioners with the dignity and respect costs above anything justified by wholesale prices, as that they deserve. they always do, the Government will take action, hopefully by threatening them with fiscal measures, including Nigel Adams: I am grateful to the Chancellor for that taxing them? reply. Many pensioners and those approaching pension age in my constituency of Selby and Ainsty will welcome Mr Osborne: I agree with part of what the hon. his words, but will he tell me what will be the impact in Gentleman said. It is important that the utility future years of the link to earnings in respect of the companies—the gas companies—are as quick to pass basic state pension? on to their customers the cuts in the wholesale price of 727 Oral Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 728 gas as they seem to be in passing on increases. We are Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Will the Minister looking at the whole electricity market—because, of take time to remind the House of the Government’s course, many pensioners receive their heating through manifesto commitment in the May general election to electricity—and considering what we can do to better retain the child trust fund for the poorest third of insulate people from price fluctuations that can cause children in society? Does she accept that looked-after havoc to family budgets. children predominantly will fall into that poorest third? Will she therefore consider the amendments to the Child Trust Funds Savings Accounts and Health in Pregnancy Grant Bill so that she can meet her manifesto commitments, or will it be a case, again, of hitting the poorest hardest? 3. Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): How many child trust funds have been set up in respect of Justine Greening: I do not accept that we did not looked-after children since such funds were introduced. follow our manifesto commitment. The House had [23965] another difficult debate on Second Reading of the Bill, and yet again the Labour party seemed to want simply The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine to ignore the challenges that our country faces. In doing Greening): Local authorities report to Her Majesty’s so, it does the public a disservice. Revenue and Customs all children coming into their care, and if a child does not already have a child trust Tax Evasion and Avoidance fund, one is opened for them. Between April 2005 and April 2009, HMRC opened child trust fund accounts for 16,676 children. 5. Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): What the evidential basis is for his Department’s estimate of the additional tax revenue to accrue by 2014-15 from Bill Esterson: Does the Minister agree that improving expenditure on measures to address tax evasion and the life chances of all looked-after children should be avoidance, and fraud and debt. [23967] an absolute priority for the Government, and will she consider supporting the amendments tabled to the Savings The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Accounts and Health in Pregnancy Grant Bill that Gauke): Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs routinely address the issue of child trust funds for looked-after measures and monitors various performance matrix, children? including yield-to-cost ratios and a number of statistical models. These were used as part of the spending review Justine Greening: As the hon. Gentleman is aware, we process to estimate the effect of investing resource to are taking legislation through the House to get rid of support its compliance strategy. On the basis of this the child trust funds. We think it is vital to support analysis, HMRC estimates that the additional expenditure looked-after children, but the question is how best to do of £900 million over the spending review period will that while also tackling our fiscal deficit. We have come result in an extra £7 billion of yield per year by 2014-15. to the conclusion that what looked-after children need is support today, and that is what we will provide. Over Mr Ward: I thank the Minister for his answer. I guess the spending review period, £7 billion will go to supporting that Members from both sides of the House would the most disadvantaged children in our country, including welcome the £900 million sprat that is being used to looked-after children. He will be aware that in the catch a £7 billion mackerel. However, I understand that Department for Education, Eileen Munro is leading an the £42 billion gap caused by avoidance, evasion and inquiry into how social care can work better, including fraud still exists. Are the Government doing enough, the support of looked-after children, and finally he will and do we need to do more? be aware that my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary will be considering proposals to bring forward a junior Mr Gauke: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to individual savings account, from which we will specifically highlight that issue. We think that the number is very ensure that looked-after children can benefit. high and that it is possible to find savings in HMRC’s budget. However, there have been specific proposals for George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): Does the Minister where HMRC has identified that it could recover large agree that it is appallingly disingenuous of Labour levels of yield, and this Government have been happy to Members to posture as the friends of child savings, provide the funding to do that. having left every man, woman and child in this country with debts of more than £22,000 each? Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I am sure that the Government will be aware of the growing public Mr Speaker: Order. The Minister, who is a dexterous outrage at the fact that a company such as Vodafone Minister, will relate her answer to the policy of the seems to have been able more or less to decide the size of Government, not that of the Opposition. its own tax bill, and, in doing so, is rumoured to have avoided a sum as high as £6 billion. Do the Government Justine Greening: I think it is a shame. The best thing agree that we need far more transparency and accountability we can do for all our children, including looked-after when it comes to such backroom deals with large companies, children, is to build a stronger country in which they or are we now entering a world where only the little can grow up and enter the workplace. I am afraid that it people pay their taxes? simply is not good enough to duck the serious questions of the day, which include sorting out not only our Mr Gauke: This Government are determined to crack economy, but our broken welfare system, which does down on tax evasion and tax avoidance, but the Vodafone those looked-after children no service either. deal was a matter for HMRC, and it is right that the 729 Oral Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 730

Government are not involved in such negotiations. I “the coalition parties have shown a high degree of cohesion in hope that the hon. Lady will not be aligning herself putting the U.K.’s public finances onto what we view to be a more with those involved in campaigns to close down Vodafone sustainable footing.” shops. The fact is that companies should pay the correct We welcome those comments. amount of tax, but she should not believe everything Comprehensive Spending Review she reads.

Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): Tax 9. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): What recent assessment avoidance and tax evasion would be less prevalent if we he has made of the effectiveness of the outcome of the had a simpler and fairer tax system. I wonder whether comprehensive spending review in reducing the budget my hon. Friend would consider following the policy of deficit. [23972] the noble Lord Lawson, which was to abolish complicated tax breaks in order to finance lower marginal rates. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): The Office for Budget Responsibility will update its Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. forecast of the deficit on 29 November, taking into As a Government, we are cutting the rate of corporation account the spending review. Other assessments have tax, from 28% to 24%, which is the lowest rate that we backed the Government’s plans, with the International have ever had in this country. Monetary Fund, for example, stating that our consolidation plan “greatly reduces the risk of a costly loss of confidence in fiscal Credit Rating Agencies sustainability and will help rebalance the economy”. That backs our view that the spending review was fair 8. Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab): What steps and supports growth. he is taking to review the regulation of credit rating agencies. [23971] Philip Davies: One of the big winners from the comprehensive spending review was, of course, the The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark European Union. The EU has not had its accounts Hoban): The coalition Government support greater signed off by auditors for 16 years running, so if the regulation of credit rating agencies. The credit rating Government are looking for a popular way to reduce agency regulation came into force in the EU, including the deficit, may I suggest that they go to the EU and say in the UK, on 7 December 2009. The UK authorities that it will not get another penny-piece out of the UK continue to be active in both the EU and G20 processes, until it has had its accounts signed off? including in negotiations on amending the credit rating agency regulation and in examining ways to reduce our Danny Alexander: Of course, the European Court of reliance on credit ratings for regulatory and official Auditors report, which fails to qualify the accounts for purposes. the 16th year in succession, is disappointing, as my hon. Friend observes. We will continue to champion reform Mr Umunna: These obviously follow on from the through engagement with European institutions and proposals of Jacques de Larosière. One problem that other member states. It is worth him bearing in mind has been identified with the rating agencies is the conflict that the Government’s most important priority for the of interest issue. I think that we should move to a forthcoming budget negotiations is to reduce and to “buyer pays”model. The other issue is a lack of competition keep under control the EU budget, not just next year, in the credit ratings market. Michel Barnier, the EU but in subsequent years, in recognition of the fact that Commissioner, has floated the idea of having an EU many EU countries are facing tough financial circumstances, credit rating agency, which I think is a thoroughly good as we are. idea. Does the Minister agree? Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): The Chancellor’s Mr Hoban: Of course there are areas where more reckless choice to cut deep and fast at home means that work needs to be done, and the hon. Gentleman is right UK jobs and growth are now reliant on achieving that Michel Barnier has made further proposals, in a booming exports on a scale not seen for more than consultation paper that he published earlier this year. 60 years. We know that Europe is our single largest They included looking at the business models for credit export market. Will the Minister share with the House rating agencies. However, I question whether taxpayers the latest evidence of the growth of demand in that market? in Europe would feel it right that their money should be going to fund credit rating agencies. Danny Alexander: There is evidence of export growth in many sectors of the economy, and the Government Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): have played a significant role in promoting exports, as Is it not a cause for cautious optimism that agencies the recent trade delegation to China showed. The hon. such as Fitch, Moody’s and Standard & Poor’s have Lady has a poor record of predicting the economy. In now given the UK such an excellent credit rating? April 2008, she was engaged in a debate that observed that there was an extreme bubble in the housing market. Mr Hoban: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and it She described that as a “colourful and lurid fiction” just goes to show that credit rating agencies do not get it that wrong all the time. In May, Standard & Poor’s put “has no bearing on the macro-economic reality.”—[Official Report, the UK’s credit rating on a “negative outlook”, as a 2 April 2008; Vol. 474, c. 825.] consequence of the previous Government’s policies. I would rather take the forecast of the Office for Budget However, in October it said that Responsibility than hers. 731 Oral Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 732

Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): The CSR is welcome the fund that they have set up. As I said, there virtually silent on privatisation’s contribution to reducing is still more to do. The issue is complex, and one the deficit. Will the Chief Secretary confirm that those complexity has been the uncertainty of international receipts, which normally score in the accounts as negative regulation and how much capital and liquidity banks spending, as he knows, will, when they come, be additional need. At the G20 that took place recently in South to and not a substitute for the spending reductions Korea, there was at last agreement on the new international already announced in the CSR? rules, and a very lengthy transition period to them. I hope that British banks will take heed of that, and as a Danny Alexander: I can confirm that. result, be able to increase their lending to small businesses.

Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): The Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): Why is Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development has the Chancellor so afraid to make the banks play their revised upwards its forecast of the number of jobs lost full part in picking up the mess that they created? He in the public sector. It also suggests that the VAT has refused to do anything about the excessive bonuses, increase will raise unemployment in the private sector. and we read in the paper that he is about to U-turn on Reputable forecasting organisations, including the CBI, the publication of remuneration. We also read that he is suggest that there will be an increase in unemployment climbing down on the bank levy and, in his answer to overall in the next year. Does the Chief Secretary now the hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley), accept that unemployment will increase as a result of he is now suggesting that it is too complex to make the the CSR, and is that why the Government have bumped banks lend to small businesses. The Government are off the autumn forecast of the OBR to the end of this not afraid to hit children and families with cutbacks, month? but if we are all in this together, why is the Chancellor letting the banks off the hook? Danny Alexander: I am content to rely on the forecast of the independent Office for Budget Responsibility, Mr Osborne: One does wonder where the hon. which forecasts a reduction of 490,000 over the next Gentleman has been for the past couple of years. We four years in the head count in the public sector, but a are picking up the pieces of the biggest banking crash of net increase of jobs in the private sector of 1.6 million, our lifetimes, caused by the poor regulation of the previous leading to additional jobs being created in the economy. Government. Since coming to office, we have announced Of course, the hon. Gentleman will look forward, as I major changes in regulation, putting the Bank of England do, to its forecast on 29 November. in charge—which we still do not know whether the Opposition support—and a permanent bank levy, which Bank Lending (Businesses) was opposed by every single Labour Member during the general election. We are determined to sort out the 10. Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): problems left to us by the previous Government. What recent steps he has taken to increase levels of bank lending to small and medium-sized businesses. John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) [23973] (LD): The enterprise finance guarantee scheme was specifically designed to help small businesses to get The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): bank finance. It has not worked, and many companies The Government have increased and extended the enterprise feel that it has not assisted them. What is my right hon. finance guarantee to support lending to small businesses. Friend doing to ensure that the scheme plays a full part We have increased our share of the enterprise capital in helping companies to get finance? fund to enable extra investment in start up for small businesses, and we have encouraged the new business Mr Osborne: The first thing that I would say to my growth fund set up by the banks. But more needs to be hon. Friend is that, of all the schemes that we inherited, done to ensure that the banks are lending to small and this was the one that we thought had the most chance of medium-sized businesses. It is a complex issue with no improvement and was worth investing in. The other single answer, but it is crucial to our recovery, and my schemes had almost no take-up, but this one did. We hon. Friend has my assurance that this is a key priority. were able to provide some additional money for it in the Budget, in the form of £200 million to support additional Mr Binley: I thank the Chancellor for that answer. lending. We are also introducing changes to the way the Lionverge, a Northampton company employing 80 people, schemes work, so that there will be a limit of 20 business had an overdraft with Barclays of £70,000, backed days that all major lenders taking part in the enterprise by security of £130,000. A new manager was recently finance guarantee scheme will have to comply with, so appointed, and in August he wrote to the company that people are not left on the hook waiting for an doubling the security, and cutting the overdraft by answer. £20,000 with further cuts of £10,000 a month to end the facility. The company had not defaulted, no warning Personal Saving was given, and no other options were offered. What can the Chancellor do to stop such unacceptable bank 11. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): What practices that undermine the Government’s growth strategy? steps he has taken to encourage saving since the June 2010 Budget; and if he will make a statement. [23974] Mr Osborne: I recently met the leading chief executives of our largest banks, and they have come forward with The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark proposals to improve the way they treat their customers, Hoban): The Government want to build a savings culture and to increase their lending to small businesses. We based on the principles of freedom, fairness and 733 Oral Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 734 responsibility, and we are committed to creating conditions she give to budding young entrepreneurs in Yorkshire in for higher saving. We have already announced a number existing businesses who are thinking of taking on a new of measures, including the annual financial health check employee? and an end to the effective requirement to purchase an annuity with tax relief pension savings at the age of 75. Justine Greening: My hon. Friend is right. In quarter We will also increase the amount that can be paid into two alone, private sector employment grew by 308,000. ISAs each year in line with inflation from April 2011. I believe that many people in the country want not just to take jobs, but to create them. I would encourage Stephen Mosley: Recent research from Which? has them to get on with it, and to pursue their dreams and highlighted the fact that savers are missing out on aspirations. They will have a Government behind them £12 billion a year by keeping their money in accounts who are giving them a national insurance holiday for that pay extremely low rates of interest. Would my hon. the jobs that they will create, and who are determined to Friend consider encouraging banks to print the interest support them by keeping corporation tax rates low rate on bank statements in the same way that credit card when they are successful. companies have to print the rate that they charge on their statements, in order to help savers to identify Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Given whether they are getting a good deal from their bank that Government plans to cut half a million public account? sector jobs are expected to lead to the cutting of a further 1 million private sector jobs, does the Minister Mr Hoban: My hon. Friend makes an important accept that it would be more effective to reduce the point. We need to ensure that savers have the information deficit in three ways—through progressive taxation, that they need to enable them to shop around and find through economic growth and through savings—than the best possible deal. ISA providers have already agreed simply to throw millions of people on to the dole and to disclose interest rates on their statements, and the whole communities into poverty? Financial Services Authority is consulting on extending that duty to other savings accounts. Justine Greening: The hon. Gentleman seems to have managed to get from a reduction of half a million in the Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): The Minister public sector head count to millions on the dole. The will be aware that the savings ratio is forecast to fall in number that he cited is in the independent report from every single year until 2015. Does this not make the the Office for Budget Responsibility, which was published decision to abolish the child trust fund—a savings plan after our emergency Budget. Although the report showed with a 74% voluntary take-up rate—all the more short- that there would be a reduction in the public sector sighted? head count of about 490,000, it also showed—and I assume that the hon. Gentleman accepts all of it—that there would be an increase in employment of 1.6 million, Mr Hoban: The problem with the child trust fund is and that, year on year, there would be reductions in that there was no evidence to demonstrate that it increased unemployment and increases in employment. If he accepts savings across the economy. We are faced with a difficult the figure of half a million, does he also accept those decision: we need to find savings to tackle the budget figures? deficit that we inherited, and we believe that the best thing to do is to give help to families now rather than locking that money away until the children are 18. Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I congratulate the Government on extending the enterprise finance guarantee scheme, but I note that it is closed to companies Private Sector Growth Trends that export because of our over-zealous application of European Union state aid rules. Can my hon. Friend 12. Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): What update the House on any plans that the Government assessment he has made of the effect on the economy have to overcome that obstacle to the achievement of of recent trends in growth in the private sector. [23975] our exporters’ growth potential?

The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine Justine Greening: We are examining ways in which we Greening): This Government have been determined to can help our UK companies to export more easily. The show that Britain is back open for business, and gross Prime Minister and the Chancellor have already led domestic product growth has been strong over the past delegations to two key markets, China and India, where two quarters. That growth has been driven largely by we hope that we can export more. That is critical if we the private sector. The Office for Budget Responsibility, are to put our economy back on its feet and it stands which this Government established, is responsible for alongside the measures that we are taking to support producing independent economic and fiscal forecasts, companies creating jobs here, and the measures that we and the Chancellor has asked the OBR to publish a new are taking to encourage investment in our country. forecast on 29 November. That forecast will incorporate the OBR’s assessment of the effect on the economy of Comprehensive Spending Review recent trends of growth in the private sector. 13. Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): Julian Smith: Does my hon. Friend agree that the What assessment has been made of the likely effects on hundreds and thousands of new jobs that have been Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs’ tax inquiry services created by the private sector in recent months make the for the public of the outcome of the comprehensive outlook pretty positive? What encouragement would spending review. [23976] 735 Oral Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 736

The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Will the British people not think it bizarre, bewildering Gauke): Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs is currently and a betrayal that over half the money saved by cuts reviewing options for delivery of the tax inquiry services will go not to reduce the deficit, but to subsidise other that it provides through its network of inquiry centres, western European countries? contact centres and online services over the next spending review period. HMRC is committed to providing services Justine Greening: My hon. Friend is right that alongside that are cost-effective and also meet the needs of its the domestic economic mess we inherited, we also inherited customers. an EU budget deal that was completely out of touch with the situation faced by many European countries. Katy Clark: We have already seen a reduction of The fall in our abatement is largely due to the give-away 25,000 staff and 200 collection offices, which must agreed by the previous Government in 2005, which will result in a worse service to the public. We are also seeing be fully phased in from 2011. It is expected to cost the cuts in the amount of money spent on dealing with tax UK about £2 billion per annum. That is £2 billion that avoidance and evasion. The Minister’s colleague mentioned was needlessly given away for absolutely nothing in an extra £900 million, but we have been told that that is return—yet another failing of the British people by the not additional money, and that less money is actually Labour party. being spent on dealing with tax collection. Is it not time that we prioritised not only giving a better service, but Child Benefit collecting more tax? 15. Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): What mechanism Mr Gauke: That money is new investment to tackle he plans to use to ensure that households which include tax avoidance and evasion. It is specific, targeted funding. one or more higher rate taxpayer cease to receive child As for the service that is provided, it is right for HMRC’s benefit payments. [23978] service to adapt to the way in which customers change their behaviour. We have seen a 40% reduction in the The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David number of people using inquiry centres over the last Gauke): From January 2013 Her Majesty’s Revenue and four years, and HMRC should of course adapt to that. Customs will withdraw child benefit from higher rate taxpayers using PAYE and self-assessment systems. The Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): vast majority of claimants will continue to receive child Recent press reports have suggested that there are many benefit, and will not be affected by this change. so-called zombie households in the United Kingdom, in which families have got themselves into so much debt Nic Dakin: Earlier this year, the Prime Minister said that they rely on interest rates remaining low to stay he wanted this Government to be the most family-friendly afloat. Does my hon. Friend agree that our policies to Government we have ever had in this country. How keep interest rates low, and to enable the Bank of does this proposal support a family where one partner England and the Monetary Policy Committee to keep stays at home to look after the children while the other them low, are key as we go through a critical period in partner earns over £45,000 a year? our recession? Mr Gauke: It does families and everyone else in this Mr Speaker: A sentence from the Minister in reply country no good if we do not get to grips with the fiscal will suffice, as the question is about tax inquiry services. crisis. If the Opposition are saying households paying We are grateful to him. higher rate income tax should continue to receive child benefit while those who do not earn so much contribute Mr Gauke: Let me put it this way: we would have a lot towards that, it once again shows that they are not more inquiries if taxes were going up, which is the getting to grips with the scale of the crisis. policy the Opposition advocate. Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): Does the Minister EU Budgetary Rebate agree that the logic of the policy outlined by Opposition Members is that any child from Prince William and 14. Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): What Catherine Middleton would benefit from child tax benefit, assessment he has made of the effects on his Department’s whereas the poorest of my constituents would not? ability to reduce the deficit of the reduction in the UK’s EU budgetary rebate; and if he will make a statement. Mr Speaker: Members really should not refer to [23977] members of the royal family in questions. That is strongly to be deprecated, and it certainly should not happen The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine again. I ask the Minister to give a very brief reply. Greening): The latest forecast of the UK contribution to the EU budget shows that the UK abatement will Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend is perhaps getting a little decline from £5.6 billion in financial year 2008-09 to ahead of himself. I think all we should say is that should £2.8 billion in financial year 2010-11. The Office for that happy eventuality occur, I am sure he or she will get Budget Responsibility will publish new projections of by without child benefit. the UK contribution to the EU budget, including the abatement, in its autumn forecast. Redundancy and Retraining Costs

Mr Bone: Under the previous Labour Government 16. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): our total net contribution to the EU was £19.8 billion; What estimate he has made of the cost to the under the coalition Government it will be £41 billion. Exchequer of redundancy and retraining requirements 737 Oral Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 738 arising from implementation of proposals contained in David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): Can the Minister the comprehensive spending review. [23979] confirm that the international counterparts discussed the subject of the Republic of Ireland, its deficit and the The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): possible EU bail-out for it? Will that cost the United The total cost of work force reforms will depend on the Kingdom money? decisions of hundreds, if not thousands, of employers up and down the country. Detailed decisions regarding Justine Greening: At this stage, we cannot speculate the number of redundancies and the associated costs about other countries’ finances. Obviously, the Irish are that may be required have yet to be finalised in most taking very difficult decisions and actions to try to get cases, so it would not be appropriate for the Treasury to the situation under control. I do not think that we speculate on any aggregate numbers at this stage. should pre-empt actions that Ireland or any other country takes and the impact that such actions may ultimately Diana Johnson: In the police service alone, major job have on the UK taxpayer. losses are already being announced, such as in the west midlands, Greater Manchester and Lincolnshire, so not Topical Questions only will there be up-front redundancy costs, but there will be the loss of skills and experience. Does the Chief Secretary agree that the cost of redundancies could be T1. [23988] Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): as high as £8 billion? If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. Danny Alexander: I have to say that that sounds like rather an overestimate, but the hon. Lady is right to say The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): that employers are spelling out their own plans for The purpose of the Treasury is to ensure economic redundancies and for managing their work force in an stability, restore sanity to the public finances, ensure appropriate way. I recognise that many staff will be very employment growth, make sure our banking system is concerned about that, but I believe that it is right that properly regulated and get this country back on its feet. they hear about specific plans from their own management, rather than draw conclusions from higher level aggregate Mrs Glindon: During the past five years, North Tyneside numbers. council has made year-on-year transformation savings without affecting front-line posts, but I fear that because Government Deficits of the comprehensive spending review front-line jobs will now be lost. What message, other than fictitiously blaming the previous Labour Government for what has 17. Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): What been a global recession, does the Chancellor have for recent discussions he has had with his international North Tyneside? counterparts on the co-ordination of efforts to reduce Government deficits. [23980] Mr Osborne: First, the Government have given all councils, including North Tyneside, greater freedom The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine about how to spend their resources by removing a lot of Greening): The UK has been actively engaged in G20 ring-fencing. Secondly, of course, as I said in the spending discussions. The Prime Minister and the Chancellor statement, this was a difficult local government attended the G20 summit on 11 and 12 November, settlement—I completely accept that. But even the Labour which delivered the Seoul action plan and pledged to party was signed up to £44 billion of spending cuts. If continue co-ordinated efforts to generate strong, sustainable Labour Members are telling us that those would not and balanced growth. In this action plan, the advanced have included local government, that is not really credible. economies committed to We have had to take difficult decisions and we should be “formulate and implement clear, credible, ambitious and growth- supported for that. friendly medium-term fiscal consolidation plans in line with the Toronto commitment, differentiated according”— T2. [23989] Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): The of course— Chancellor is heading to an ECOFIN meeting “to national circumstances.” tomorrow and I hope he will continue to press our colleagues in the European Union for some restoration Glyn Davies: Bearing in mind reports of continuing of fiscal sanity in their economic policies. The flag that threats to some of our EU partners, does the Minister will be fluttering so merrily over the proceedings will be agree that the International Monetary Fund’s recent the blue and yellow one—those are colours that we growth forecasts underline the need for an ambitious rather enjoy. Does he agree that unless we see some and credible strategy for dealing with the budget deficit? return to fiscal sanity and some abandonment of the policy of fiscal recklessness perhaps the colour of the Justine Greening: My hon. Friend is right about that. flag should be changed from blue and yellow to brown? The IMF clearly supported the efforts that the coalition Government have been making both in the emergency Mr Osborne: Of course we are urging fiscal restraint Budget and the spending review to get to grips with the on the European Union. I should pay tribute to my terrible fiscal deficit handed over by the previous colleague, the Economic Secretary, who has been out to Government. The OECD also welcomed the balance Brussels twice in the past few days to argue vigorously that we struck in the spending review between not only for restraint in the European Union budget with protecting growth, but tackling debt. considerable success. One of the problems we are dealing 739 Oral Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 740 with is that the previous Government gave up half the Danny Alexander: In the spending review, we took a rebate and that is one of the reasons why the budget is number of spending decisions that will support social increasing. mobility. We chose to invest in early-years education for disadvantaged two-year-olds—a new investment—and T5. [23993] Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) to maintain the 15-hours entitlement for three and (Lab): The unemployment rate in my constituency was four-year-olds, something that was introduced under 10.7% in September. After the announcement in the this Government. We chose to invest in a pupil premium comprehensive spending review of the slashing of jobs, that will give additional support to the most disadvantaged services and skills, what does the Chancellor think will children. In tough financial times, that is the strongest be the unemployment rate in my constituency in investment in social mobility made by any Government 12 months’ time? in this country for many a long year.

Mr Osborne: The whole point is that we have given Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): The White Paper these forecasts to an independent body, rather than just last week stated that HMRC will be taking on new relying on the forecasts given by the Chancellor of the responsibilities in collecting and processing real-time Exchequer at this Dispatch Box, so that people can pay data for the calculation of universal credit. How believe in their independence and credibility. The Office much has been allocated for the IT to deliver that for Budget Responsibility will produce its autumn forecast change? on 29 November. But of course the OBR figure that all Labour Members seem to use is the one for the public The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David sector head count, but they seem to forget that this Gauke): The response to the consultation on real-time same body made a forecast of an increase in net information—the next stage of it—will be published employment, which sadly they never use. shortly. We will outline the details in that, but additional sums have been identified as part of the spending review Mr Speaker: David Tredinnick, not here. process to pay for the real-time information project.

Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): What steps can T6. [23994] Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): the Chancellor take to ensure that the Financial Services More than 20% of my constituents in Cannock Chase Authority’s mortgage market review proposals do not are employed by manufacturing centred small businesses. have a disproportionate effect on home buyers and the Will the Chancellor assure them that the small business housing market, particularly at a time when we are tax review will simplify and reduce taxes for small trying to encourage growth through the private sector? businesses rather than complicate and increase them?

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Mr Osborne: Yes, I can give that assurance. I also Hoban): My hon. Friend makes an important point and note that the actions that the Government have taken the FSA’s mortgage market review is seeking to learn have kept the small companies rate down, avoiding the some of the lessons from how the mortgage market was rise in the rate that we inherited. regulated before the financial crisis and some of the problems that that regulation created. What I think is important is that the FSA should consider very carefully Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): The the impact on home ownership and particularly on comprehensive spending review contained a proposal to those people who are looking to move shortly. cut the mobility element of the disability living allowance for those in residential care. Why did the Government make that decision—because it was fair or to reduce the T8. [23997] Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven fiscal deficit? and Lesmahagow) (Lab): May I give those on the Treasury Front Bench the opportunity to answer the question on child benefit that they failed to answer Mr Osborne: In the spending review we took a number earlier? How do they justify taking child benefit off a of difficult decisions, including decisions on welfare. We single-earning family on £45,000 and allowing a family sought to identify the savings that we thought were that earns £80,000 to retain child benefit? An answer most justified. As far as I understand it—although I am this time would be appreciated. happy to be corrected—the DLA changes have been supported by the Opposition. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): As the hon. Gentleman knows—and as the whole House T7. [23996] Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): Fiscal knows—the justification for the measure that we took discipline is, if anything, more essential in opposition was to ensure that the cost of the spending review fell than in government. Will the Chancellor tell us whether equally across the population so that those with the he has received any support or advice from the broadest shoulders would bear a greater share of the Opposition on how to achieve that fiscal discipline? burden. In those circumstances, it is right that child benefit should be taken away from families with higher Mr Osborne: I am told that they have plans to cut rate taxpayers. I would have thought that the Opposition £44 billion from public expenditure, but they have not would support that, not oppose it. told me what those plans are.

T4. [23992] Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): What is the economic Weald) (Con): What fiscal action will be taken to case for HMRC’s sacking professional tax collectors increase social mobility and to stimulate it in our and hiring novice private sector debt collectors to collect country? liabilities of tax below £10,000? 741 Oral Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 742

Mr Gauke: The intention is to strengthen HMRC’s but we were outvoted because it was a qualified majority capability to collect taxes. If that involves making use of vote. We are dealing with the fact that the previous private sector expertise to collect additional debt, which Government gave up half the budget rebate, which is is the intention, that is surely a good thing that should why British contributions are going up, and we are very be welcomed by all parties. clear that although we want fiscal rectitude across Europe, we do not propose to hand over substantive new powers Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Given that to the European Union. the Irish Government have said that they neither want nor need a bail-out, will the Chancellor support them at Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): There is much ECOFIN and put off those people in the EU who seem support around the country and in the House for the to want to make a crisis out of a problem? broad principles of the Robin Hood tax campaign. The coalition Government have made a good start with the Mr Osborne: There is an enormous amount of permanent bank levy; will the Chancellor confirm that speculation about Ireland at the moment to which I do he expects the Independent Commission on Banking to not propose to add. The Irish Government have said consider the taxation of bankers’ bonuses and bank clearly that they have not sought assistance and that profits so that the banks pay their fair share in this they are taking difficult steps to deal with their fiscal country? situation. They will make further announcements about their Budget situation in the next few weeks. I make the general observation that what is going on at the moment Mr Osborne: The commission that we have set up is highlights the fact that concerns about sovereign debt looking principally at the structure of the banking issues have not disappeared and we should be grateful sector, which is another very important issue. We have that, thanks to the actions of this Government, we have said that we want the banks to make a contribution, moved Britain out of the financial danger zone. which is why we introduced the permanent banking levy; we did not agree with the previous Government Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): that that should not happen. We followed the best What does the Chancellor say to fixed-income pensioner practice set out by the International Monetary Fund, households in my constituency and his who will be faced which outlined two taxes that could be pursued—one with the additional VAT burden in just over 50 days? was a bank levy and the other was a financial activities tax, which we also said that we would consider in the Budget. On the broader point of the Robin Hood tax, Mr Osborne: I would say to them what I would say to or the financial transactions tax, which is sometimes everyone in this country: that we inherited the largest discussed at ECOFIN, I think that everyone accepts fiscal—[Interruption.] Well, I do not know how many that it would have to be introduced internationally or times Opposition Members have to hear this but it is the else it would be almost impossible to collect any revenue. truth. They left us the largest Budget deficit in the G20 and the European Union at a time of heightened sovereign debt concern. They can either be part of the debate that Mr Speaker: I think we have got the drift. the rest of world is taking part in on how to deal with the deficits or they can completely ignore that debate Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): Can the Chancellor and become irrelevant. or another Minister tell us what assessment has been made regarding potential job losses due to changes in Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): Does the benefit system? Much concern has been expressed in the Chancellor agree that he should ignore the advice of my constituency, particularly yesterday in the local press, the Opposition on all matters fiscal relating to the that up to 700 jobs might be lost in the HMRC office in European Union, because it is still their policy to join Dundee as a result of such changes. What assurances the euro and because their MEPs voted to double our can Ministers give me and my constituents that that will contribution this year? not be allowed to happen?

Mr Osborne: As you will remind me, Mr Speaker, I Danny Alexander: The welfare reforms that we are cannot speak for the policy of the Opposition or say proposing are designed to support people off benefit whether they have changed their official position which and into work. That is the whole point of the reforms is to support joining the euro, but I make it clear to my that the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions hon. Friends and others that we certainly will not join outlined last week. The reforms that will create a universal the euro while this Chancellor and this Prime Minister credit and some of the changes that we announced in are in place. the spending review are all there to help people off benefit and into work, and to help people get jobs, John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): It was this which is what the hon. Gentleman should support. Chancellor who agreed a 2.9% increase in contributions to the EU and to cede certain powers to Brussels—that is in the papers he signed—so has he not joined that Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): Can the glorious list of British politicians who go to Brussels, Chancellor confirm that, unlike the shadow Chancellor, lose their wallets and their trousers and then come back he is not an instinctive cutter? and tell us what a great deal they have got? Mr Osborne: I did see that rather remarkable comment Mr Osborne: I think that the hon. Gentleman is from the shadow Chancellor over the weekend. We are thinking of Tony Blair rather than of this Government. doing what we are doing because we have to—because We voted against the increase in the European budget, of the size of the Budget deficit. 743 Oral Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 744

Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Danny Alexander: It should be obvious to the hon. Cleveland) (Lab): The Federation of Small Businesses Gentleman that higher rate taxpayers have greater means North East and the insolvency trade body R3 have than those at the bottom of the income spectrum. It is a wound up one in 10 businesses that were unprepared for basic principle of fairness that underlies the spending the 2.5% increase in VAT next year. Kingston university review that we need to ensure that those with the also recently showed that small businesses in the north-east broadest shoulders bear a greater share of the burden. intend to shed staff. Is not VAT the real jobs tax? As I said in response to the question earlier, asking higher rate taxpayers not to collect child benefit seems Mr Osborne: As I say, we are doing that because we to be one of the decisions in the spending review that need to deal with the Budget deficit. I thought it was the the Opposition should find it easiest to support. policy of the hon. Gentleman’s party that a greater share of the consolidation should be borne by tax rises; I thought that that was now the official policy. It is also Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): As my right clear that the previous Government were planning a hon. Friend says, it is right that in reducing the deficit, VAT rise. Businesses have had plenty of notice of the those with the broadest shoulders should bear the greatest increase that is coming in in January, and I am sure they burden, but do the Government understand the genuine will be able to cope in the same way as they coped with anger that the public feel when it seems as though the VAT rise at the beginning of this January. wealthy individuals and large companies can get away without paying their tax bills? What reassurance can the Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): All of us are all Minister give my constituents that the richest in society too aware of the record deficit and debt that we inherited will pay their fair share? from the Opposition. Will my right hon. Friend agree to publish a regular scorecard showing how that deficit and the debt are reducing, so that taxpayers and the Mr Osborne: We have taken a number of decisions to public sector can see the benefit of the Government’s make sure that the burden is fairly shared. We have policies? introduced the bank levy, and we are taking child benefit away from higher rate taxpayers, although that Mr Osborne: We have created the independent Office is clearly opposed by Labour. We are also seeking to for Budget Responsibility so that the fiscal forecasts for conclude a number of deals with countries that have a the United Kingdom are no longer produced by the reputation for attracting tax avoidance and tax evasion, Chancellor of the Exchequer and sometimes influenced such as the deal that we are negotiating with Switzerland. by the political judgments of the Chancellor of the That will ensure that there are further revenues coming Exchequer, but instead are done independently. into the Exchequer from those who can afford it. Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): On child benefit, can the Chief Secretary explain why he believes that Several hon. Members rose— families earning £45,000 have broader shoulders than those earning £80,000? Mr Speaker: Order. We must move on. 745 16 NOVEMBER 2010 Redfern Inquiry 746

Redfern Inquiry consideration of the implications of the research work that the industry was doing; that limited supervision 3.33 pm was undertaken; and that relationships between pathologists, coroners and the Sellafield medical officers became too The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change close. (Chris Huhne): Today I am publishing the report of the Redfern inquiry, which was established in 2007 to investigate The inquiry has found that organs from a small the processes and practices surrounding the analysis of number of former Ministry of Defence employees were human tissue that was carried out in UK nuclear facilities removed for analysis. It has been difficult to establish from 1955 to 1992. The inquiry examined the circumstances the legality of a minority of these removals. Also, in which organs or tissue were removed from individuals during the 1950s and 1960s the Medical Research Council at NHS or other facilities, and sent to be analysed at oversaw research measuring levels of strontium 90 in nuclear laboratory establishments. human bone obtained at post-mortem. It was a national To lose a family member is tragic. To find out— survey, involving more than 6,000 people, mostly children, sometimes decades later—that tissue had been taken and was not linked to former nuclear workers. without consent is an unimaginable distress. That knowledge The inquiry also considered work undertaken by the is a burden that no one should have to bear. There is no National Radiological Protection Board. Across its entire time limit on grief; nor is there on apologies. I would remit, the inquiry found that families’ views about like to take this opportunity to express my heartfelt organ retention were not always sought, and that very regret, and to apologise to the families and relatives of few families knew that organs were taken for analysis. those involved. I hope that the publication of today’s Research using human tissue at that time was carried report goes some way toward providing the closure that out under different legislation, and within a culture that they deserve. The events described in the inquiry should took a very different approach to these matters than we never have happened in the first place. We have learned do today. That is not to diminish the distress and the lessons of the past. The law on human tissue has suffering caused to families by the events of the past. been reviewed, and a rigorous regulatory system is now However, we have learned from the mistakes of the in place, in which both the public and professionals past, and we now have in place the legislative and have confidence. regulatory framework that makes consent the fundamental I would like to thank the chairman of the inquiry, principle underpinning the lawful retention and use of Mr Michael Redfern QC, for conducting the investigation. body parts, organs and tissue from the living or the The inquiry has also benefited from the support of the deceased for such purposes. nuclear industry and other key stakeholders, who have My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for co-operated fully.The inquiry was established to investigate Health and I welcome the inquiry’s recognition of the the circumstances in which organs were removed from changes in the law and the associated regulatory framework individuals, and were sent to and analysed at Sellafield. relating to the taking, use and storage of human tissue, However, as evidence came to light of similar work which have been put in place since the events leading up carried out at other sites and of studies involving non- to the inquiry. Since the Human Tissue Act 2004 came nuclear workers, Michael Redfern QC was asked to into force, we have seen the development of robust make those additional cases part of his inquiry. regulation that focuses on compliance through the provision The inquiry was initially sponsored by the Department of expert advice and guidance—and where regulatory of Trade and Industry, which at that time had responsibility action is taken if standards are not met. for energy policy. The Department of Health became a My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of co-sponsor when the terms of reference were expanded State for Justice has the principal interest in the inquiry’s to allow the inquiry to access relevant NHS information, findings relating to the role of coroners. His Department and to investigate the part played by hospitals in which is responsible for coronial law and policy, but as coroners the post-mortem examinations had been conducted. are independent judicial office holders, it does not monitor Although not a sponsor of the inquiry, the Ministry of how they carry out their functions in individual cases Justice also has an interest in the inquiry’s findings and unless specific complaints are made. Communication recommendations in respect of the coroner’s role. between families, coroners and pathologists was, and The report highlights unacceptable working practices still is, vital. within the nuclear industry, NHS pathology services Changes to the 1984 coroners rules, which were and the coronial service, and concludes that families’ introduced alongside the human tissue legislation, are views were not always obtained as required under the aimed at ensuring that families’ wishes about what Human Tissue Act 1961. It acknowledges that these happens to organs and tissue retained after a post-mortem events occurred a number of decades ago, and puts examination can be properly established and acted upon. them within the context of the times and current practice. My right hon. and learned Friend also intends to take Many of the issues raised by the inquiry have since been forward several provisions in the Coroners and Justice addressed by changes to the law, including the introduction Act 2009 which address other problems that Mr Redfern of the Human Tissue Act 2004. identifies and aim to prevent any recurrence of the The inquiry found that organs from 64 former Sellafield events that led to the establishment of his inquiry. workers were removed by pathologists and taken for Although the Government are not proceeding with analysis at Sellafield between 1960 and 1991. In addition, the role of a chief coroner, we intend to transfer many organs taken from 12 workers at other nuclear sites of the intended leadership functions of the post to the were analysed at, or at the request of, Sellafield, giving a Lord Chancellor, or possibly to the senior judiciary. total cohort of 76. The inquiry also found evidence of There will be higher standards when commissioning other individuals whose organs were analysed at Sellafield. post-mortem examinations, and in the way that coroners The report finds that there was a lack of ethical communicate with bereaved families. There will be more 747 Redfern Inquiry16 NOVEMBER 2010 Redfern Inquiry 748 effective operational delivery, with an end to rigid, The Secretary of State rightly talks about the new geographic boundary restrictions. Training for coroners rigorous regulatory system, but it is the Government’s and their staff will be maintained and improved, and intention to abolish the Human Tissue Authority and coroners’ work will be more transparent so that transfer its functions to other bodies. What guarantee unacceptable practices can be avoided or challenged can he give that such important functions will not be and deficiencies can be tackled. We are also considering lost as a result of the Government’s proposed changes? introducing the new, more accountable system for The Secretary of State is clear that such acts would appointing coroners and their deputies that the 2009 not be permissible today, as they were not then. It is Act enabled. therefore particularly important that procedures are in The inquiry has sought and received assurances from place to uncover any practices of this nature in future. all the key nuclear industry stakeholders that the practice Can he further explain what contact the Government of retaining organs or tissue at autopsy has ceased. I have had or are planning to have with the professions hope that the families of those involved can take some concerned, particularly pathologists and coroners, to comfort from the knowledge that the practices that the ensure that robust procedures are in place so that this inquiry examined simply would not be permissible today. could not happen again? I commend this statement to the House. This report does not stop the heartache for the families, but it lays out the facts, and I hope that that gives them Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ some comfort. Co-op): I thank the Secretary of State and his office for early sight of his statement on this very important Chris Huhne: I thank the hon. Lady. I think that this matter. is an issue on which we can all unite, in all parts of the Our first sympathies must be for the families. They House, in our frank shock at the events that took place, have lived through an ordeal and had to relive or, in albeit it many decades ago in many cases. I am able to some cases, discover what happened to their loved ones give the reassurance that the hon. Lady seeks, and the after death. It cannot have been easy, and their forbearance reassurance to the public, that these events are historical has been great. I very much welcome the Secretary of and, as far as we can tell, are not taking place today; State’s heartfelt apology. I, like other Members, have they would clearly be illegal. The Redfern inquiry sought had only a short time to look at the report, but it is clear assurances from all the key players—and indeed received that it is thorough, clearly written and a credit to the those assurances—that there was nothing taking place hard work of Michael Redfern QC and his team. My today that would be similar. hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Mr Reed) has In the course of the inquiry, as the report makes clear, ably represented many of the families over a long period, it became obvious that the removal of organs from a and today the families must come first. limited number of people in fact related to only a part The events in question took place some time ago, and of the total. The right hon. Member for Edinburgh it has been challenging to piece together the history. South West (Mr Darling), as the then Secretary of State The issues are complex, and Michael Redfern has produced for Trade and Industry, knew about that when the a report that not only explains what happens, but provides inquiry was commissioned. The inquiry points out that reassurance that such practices are no longer used. The once we take account of other cases, the total is nearly events, let us remember, took place in a different era 6,000 across the country. That is a very much greater when there was much debate about the safety of the figure than we thought at the time. nuclear industry, and the GMB at the time campaigned The hon. Lady is right to say that the Human Tissue hard for a compensation scheme for nuclear workers Authority is to be abolished by the Government and its who had been exposed to excess radiation. Today, a functions transferred to other bodies. I have spoken compensation scheme is in place. with my colleagues from the Department of Health on The report is clear that the law at the time was in this point. Those functions will be transferred to other place to prevent the removal of human tissue without organisations and dealt with by the Department of proper consent from those who had died. Unfortunately, Health. There will be no question of any relenting on that did not prevent these events from happening. It is the key functions that were set out for the Human an important and salutary reminder to all of us in this Tissue Authority. House, and elsewhere, that we need to remain vigilant in The professions have been engaged in conversations our scrutiny of professional practice and of the work of with both the Department of Health and the Ministry scientists. Science is vital to the UK, and we have a of Justice. I am confident that the lessons of the report worldwide reputation to protect. It is in all our interests will be learned and that robust procedures will be put in to get it right. place to ensure that such questionable practices do not I have some questions for the Secretary of State. Is he recur. able to reassure the public that the events outlined in the The hon. Lady asked about current safety levels in Redfern inquiry report are historical and are not taking the nuclear industry. I can assure her that we have a place today? We have the 2004 Act; we now need to be rigorous safety and inspection regime which is kept vigilant about it. under constant review in order to make sure that safety The inquiry looked into the issue of removal of levels are absolutely at the highest. organs from 76 people. Is the Secretary of State satisfied that that was the extent of the case? I am sure that he Mr Alistair Darling (Edinburgh South West) (Lab): I will agree that any families who are concerned should add my thanks to Michael Redfern for his very substantial have an easy route to information about their loved report, which is far weightier and far more extensive ones; perhaps he could explain how they can find out than we anticipated when I commissioned his work more. three and a half years ago. 749 Redfern Inquiry16 NOVEMBER 2010 Redfern Inquiry 750

[Mr Alistair Darling] allying particular health funding streams to their causes— that, for instance, road accident matters should be It is difficult to judge what happened over a period of funded by the Department for Transport or that nuclear 50 years—of course, standards, ethics and the law have health streams should be funded by the Department of changed very substantially—but does the Secretary of Energy and Climate Change. However, he can be assured State accept two things? First, many people would of my support in ensuring that the care available is acknowledge that there will be occasions when more outstanding. investigation and research is necessary, but the key thing is that they should be involved in those decisions, Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): One of they should know about the work, and they should be the most disturbing elements is the culture of secrecy in a position to give or withhold their consent. that allowed body parts not only to be taken without Secondly, although things have changed dramatically permission but later to be disposed of as waste in the in the nuclear industry over the past few years, it does low-level waste depository at Drigg. Many living relatives have a history of being less open than it should be. By will be deeply distressed to think of their loved ones being more open, it will build more confidence in what being treated in such a callous way. Does the Secretary it does—an objective in which I believe, and in which I of State agree that that culture of secrecy still surrounds think the Secretary of State now believes as well. the nuclear industry and can be a barrier to proper scrutiny and accountability? What measures will he Chris Huhne: I totally agree with both the right hon. take to challenge it? Gentleman’s points. The key principle introduced in the Human Tissue Act 2004 was consent ahead of time. Chris Huhne: The hon. Lady recognises—I hope—that The legal situation before that allowed researchers to there have been improvements in recent years in the access human tissue without consent if they had made openness of the industry. I believe it understands the reasonable efforts to obtain it. That was a fundamental importance of public confidence, because it is a very change, and I entirely agree that it was important for us different industry from the one that existed during the as a society to move with the times and reflect the key decades in which these practices were undertaken. One family sensitivities involved. I also agree entirely with his way of securing and retaining public confidence is to be point about the nuclear industry. Openness is usually the as open and transparent about practices as possible, best disinfectant, and transparency is thoroughly desirable. and as the Secretary of State responsible for the industry, I am extremely keen that that should be the case. I want Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): I am grateful to the industry’s practices—particularly its safety practices, the right hon. Gentleman for advance sight of his but respect for those who work in the industry too—to statement, to the shadow Secretary of State for her be maintained at the highest possible level. If the hon. warm wards and to the former Secretary of State for Lady has particular concerns, I would be very happy to Trade and Industry, my right hon. Friend the Member deal with them either in correspondence or in the normal for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), for instigating way through parliamentary answers. the report in the first instance. I declare two interests, as both a former Sellafield worker and the grandson of Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab): Anyone who Thompson Reed, one of the trade union officials mentioned reads this report will be absolutely horrified, as I am. I in the report. dread to think what the families will be feeling at this I hope that there will now be a dialogue between the time; our thoughts and prayers are very much with affected families and the Government on the subject of them as they go through this very difficult period. Is the restitution. The nuclear industry and Sellafield are extremely Secretary of State prepared to meet my hon. Friend the popularly supported in my part of the world, not least Member for Copeland (Mr Reed) and me as soon as by me. One telling point in the report is the constant possible to see what help and support we can give both churn and change that the West Cumberland hospital to the families and the wider community of west Cumbria? and NHS management structures have experienced, which may have led to less than ideal practices. Will the Chris Huhne: I would be very happy to meet the hon. Secretary of State commit to working with me and Gentleman and his neighbour on this and any other those in my community, with a view to seeing how we issue. The industry is important to their part of the can fund the hospital outside the routine, ordinary world, and I hope that the relationships can improve funding systems that exist for other hospitals, given the and that we can provide some reassurance to the families unique nature of the work undertaken at Sellafield? that such events will never happen again. We extend our condolences to those in distress. Chris Huhne: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. As he knows, I am very committed to Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Will the Secretary continued employment in the nuclear industry and the of State congratulate Dr David Lowry on publishing importance of his area to it, and I visited Sellafield evidence from the 1962 report of the Medical Research shortly after I became Secretary of State. We very much Council’s National Radiological Protection Board to want to maintain that dialogue. I am keen to take up show that there was an experiment in which people, any issues of concern to his constituents and employees including pregnant women, young people under 18 and in the industry about their health care or anything else. those without fatal diseases, were exposed to doses of He can rely on my support on that. radiation of the most long-lived type, including strontium, The funding streams are obviously an issue for the plutonium and caesium? Is this not a sad story of the Department of Health, but I do not think the hon. nuclear industry being far more interested in public Gentleman would want us to go down the route of relations than in public health? 751 Redfern Inquiry 16 NOVEMBER 2010 752

Chris Huhne: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right Guantanamo Civil Litigation Settlement to identify Dr Lowry as one of the important characters in opening up this whole saga. I am happy to join him in his congratulations on that score. The key issue that we 3.59 pm have to keep repeating to anyone who doubts it in the The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice nuclear industry is that openness is absolutely crucial. (Mr Kenneth Clarke): With permission Mr Speaker, I We have an enormous continuing nuclear clean-up legacy would like to make a statement. On 6 July, the Prime in Sellafield and elsewhere that will require great effort Minister told the House that the legacy issues the for many years to come. That arises, in part, from the Government had inherited around the treatment of fact that the industry—here I agree with the hon. Member detainees held by other countries needed to be addressed. for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier)—was Our reputation as a country that believes in human too secretive for far too long. rights, justice, fairness and the rule of law otherwise risked being tarnished. There was also the risk of public Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): confidence being eroded, with people doubting the ability I should declare an interest having been brought up in of our security and intelligence agencies to protect us west Cumbria and having worked for many years in the and questioning the rules under which they operate. nuclear industry. I add my congratulations to my hon. Friends the Members for Copeland (Mr Reed) and for The Government are absolutely clear that national Workington (Tony Cunningham) on championing their security and the protection of the rule of law go hand in communities on this issue for many years. The Secretary hand. The Prime Minister has repeatedly made it clear of State said that these are historical events. None the that this coalition Government are unswerving in their less, the practices continued until less than two decades opposition to torture or the ill-treatment of prisoners ago, and personnel may be still in the NHS or the or detainees. We do not condone it, nor do we ask nuclear industry who were part of that decision-making others to do it on our behalf. process. Will the Secretary of State undertake to ensure We recognise that our longer-term security interests that no one is working today in the NHS or in the require that we defend our values and the rule of law, industry who was responsible for those terrible decisions? and that any allegations that threaten those must be treated seriously. In tackling the challenges posed by Chris Huhne: Michael Redfern QC identifies and those serious allegations, the Government’s overriding names a number of people in his extensive report. The objective is to ensure that the security and intelligence criticisms that are made of those individuals are quite a agencies can focus on their vital task of protecting the rebuke to anyone who is in a professional job and who security and interests of the UK, and that the serious values their standing. The key figures have now retired, allegations that threaten their reputation and that of and would certainly not be responsible for a continuation our country are examined properly. The security of this of such practices. However, that would be true even if nation is the first concern of any Government. The they had not retired, because the law has now changed. security and intelligence agencies play an invaluable The report, none the less, is thorough, extensive and part in ensuring our security, and the Government are identifies those individuals who were involved but who determined that they are free to do the vital job that we have now retired. need them to do. In his statement, the Prime Minister said that a single, authoritative inquiry was required to investigate the serious allegations of the Government’s complicity in the mistreatment of detainees held by other countries. The right honourable Sir Peter Gibson was appointed to head that independent inquiry. However, the Prime Minister also made it clear that the inquiry could not begin while related police investigations were ongoing and while so many of the Guantanamo civil law suits brought against the Government remained unresolved. To help to pave the way for the inquiry to begin, the Government committed to entering into a process of mediation with those held by the United States in detention in Guantanamo Bay who had brought civil actions against the Government. I can today inform the House that the Government have now agreed a mediated settlement of the civil damages claims brought by detainees held at Guantanamo Bay. The details of that settlement have been made subject to a legally binding confidentiality agreement. They have been reported in confidence to the Chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee of the House, to the National Audit Office, and, I think, to the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee.

Margaret Hodge (Barking) (Lab) indicated dissent.

Mr Clarke: Ah. No. 753 Guantanamo Civil Litigation 16 NOVEMBER 2010 Guantanamo Civil Litigation 754 Settlement Settlement [Mr Kenneth Clarke] illegal, it is internationally banned, and no Government should have anything to do with it. The Labour party No admissions of culpability have been made in has been, and will remain, completely opposed to settling those cases and nor have any of the claimants Guantanamo Bay. We took action in government to withdrawn their allegations. This is a mediated settlement. remove all the British citizens and all but one resident Confidentiality is a very common feature of mediation from Guantanamo Bay, and my right hon. Friend the processes, as in this case. Confidentiality was agreed by Member for South Shields (David Miliband) ensured both parties, subject to the necessary parliamentary that Britain’s Government were the first to get all their accountability and legal requirements. I hope that the citizens out of there. What steps are this Government House will understand that I am unable to comment taking to secure the release of the one remaining resident further on the details of the settlement without breaching still in Guantanamo Bay, Shaker Aamer? I note that the that confidentiality with the claimants. hon. Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison), who represents The alternative to any payments made was protracted his family, is in her place. and extremely expensive litigation in an uncertain legal Britain’s security services, under all Governments, are environment in which the Government could not be required to live up to the highest standards, while certain that we would be able to defend Departments protecting our national security. They do an incredible and the security and intelligence agencies without job. Their work is rarely ever recognised, for obvious compromising national security. The cost was estimated reasons of secrecy, but they save lives, and we should at approximately £30 million to £50 million over three always remind ourselves of that. We should also place to five years of litigation. In our view, there could have firmly on the record the human rights policy of our been no Gibson inquiry until that ligation was resolved. security services, and be proud of their stance. As John The Government will make a further statement to the Sawers, the head of the Secret Intelligence Service, said House when the relevant police processes have been last month: completed and the inquiry is in a position to begin its “If we know or believe action by us will lead to torture taking work. The mediated settlement actually represents a place, we’re required by UK and international law to avoid that significant step forward in delivering the Government’s action. It makes us strive all the harder to find different ways, plan for a resolution of those issues in the interests of consistent with human rights, to get the outcome we want.” both justice and national security. The settlement has To sustain the excellent work of the intelligence agencies, the support of the heads of the Security Service, the and to ensure that these standards are met in practice, it Secret Intelligence Service and the Whitehall Departments is vital that whenever allegations are made they are fully involved. The Security Service and the SIS are issuing a investigated. public statement to that effect today. You will know, Mr Speaker, that the previous In his statement, the Prime Minister also announced Government began the process of publishing the plans for a Green Paper on the use of intelligence in consolidated guidance given to our intelligence officers, judicial proceedings, which we hope to publish in the which was a process finished by the current Government summer of 2011. It will examine mechanisms for the earlier this year. It was and remains our view that all protection and disclosure of sensitive information in measures possible should be taken to satisfy ourselves, the full range of civil proceedings, inquests and inquiries. the public and our allies that if any wrongdoing is alleged We will also consider complementary options to modernise it is fully investigated, that any evidence is gathered and and reform existing standing intelligence oversight passed on, and that it is dealt with to conclusion. That mechanisms. The Government are engaging with relevant is why the previous Attorney-General referred two cases parliamentary bodies, key stakeholders and our where concerns had been raised to the police for international partners in developing these proposals investigation, and that is why we look forward to the further. Today’s announcement is a very important judge-led inquiry into allegations of complicity in torture step forward, and we are closer now to getting the now that the civil cases are settled. important Gibson inquiry into all these allegations Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman confirm finally under way. that the police will be able to conclude their investigations before the judge-led inquiry begins? Obviously, the House Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): I thank the Justice Secretary has not been privy to the detail of the settlements and for advance sight of his statement and for our meeting the negotiations, but he will know that there are legitimate earlier today. I welcome his decision this morning to questions about the settlements that the Government make this an oral statement to the House, rather than have come to that mean that these 16 cases will no the written statement originally planned. I would also longer be resolved individually in the courts. We understand like to put it on the record at the outset that up until that the Government have had to consider this in the November 2004, I was a senior partner at a law firm light of the ruling by the Court of Appeal in May. Can that acted for a number of the Guantanamo Bay detainees. he confirm to the House that the settlements reached Does the Secretary of State agree that statements as will not pre-judge the inquiry or pass judgement on the significant as this should be made first to the House actions of our security services in advance of a full before they appear in the media? Will he therefore join investigation? me in raising concern that this extremely important Will the confidentiality agreement prevent the Secretary announcement was leaked to ITN’s “News at Ten” of State from telling the House and the public the sums programme last night? of money involved in these settlements? If so, will he On the substance of the right hon. and learned reconsider and agree with us that there is a public Gentleman’s statement, the House is united in its complete interest in knowing the total sum involved in this settlement? rejection of torture and mistreatment. That goes for the Will he commit to scrutiny of the settlements by both practice of and collusion or complicity in torture. It is the Intelligence and Security Committee and the Public 755 Guantanamo Civil Litigation 16 NOVEMBER 2010 Guantanamo Civil Litigation 756 Settlement Settlement Accounts Committee? He said that the claimants would the resolution of those prosecutions. If they lead to no be able to give evidence to the Gibson inquiry. Can he prosecutions, we really will be clear to get on to the tell the House what investigations within the scope of inquiry that lies beyond. the inquiry will take place into the allegations in those The settlement, which involves no concession of liability specific cases? Will the inquiry pass judgment on each or withdrawal of allegations, does not prejudge the individual case? Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman Gibson inquiry in any way. It will be entirely for Sir say whether the scope of that inquiry has changed since Peter and his colleagues to decide on the inquiry once the Prime Minister’s statement to the House in July? its terms of reference have finally been settled. We see Finally, can the right hon. and learned Gentleman the inquiry as looking at the problem in general—that also tell the House whether any other cases remain is, looking at the history and deciding whether there unsettled, and if so what decision has been taken on were problems and whether there are any lessons to their effect on the inquiry? It is important that the learn, as well as making inquiries about how we might inquiry can be thorough and that its access to documents ensure that the standards that the whole House would held by the Government should be as full as that want to uphold are put beyond doubt for the future. We enjoyed by the courts. Can he therefore confirm that the have not altered the scope of the inquiry since the Prime Gibson inquiry will have access to all the same information Minister made his statement, and we expect it to have that has been or would be available to the courts? access to a wide range of information—indeed, all the Everyone will appreciate the need to ensure that Britain’s information that it could reasonably expect. The problem security is not compromised, and that must be reflected with the courts is either that they cannot have access to in the way that the inquiry operates. However, as the a lot of the information because of all the security allegations are comprehensively addressed, it is important problems, or that it cannot share it with the complainants that the public should have confidence in the process and the public. So far as I am aware, the settlements and its outcome. We say again: there is no place for the cover all the British residents and citizens from Guantanamo torture or mistreatment of detainees. Bay who are making complaints. We are not aware of any other cases that could be raised on all fours with Mr Clarke: I, too, regret the leak. I am having a bad those. week for leaks. I made a statement yesterday that had The settlement has saved us money and, most been leaked by somebody at the weekend, and last night importantly, time. It has stopped the intelligence service I was at dinner when I was told that ITV had details of spending man-hours on sifting through evidence and this statement. It is early days in government to have coping with litigation, but it must remain confidential. them so frequently—but ’twas ever thus. I will do my It is legally confidential and could be reopened if either best to ensure that there are no leaks of this kind in side broke that confidentiality, so I am afraid that I am future. unable to tell the right hon. Gentleman the precise sums We continue to press the Americans for Shaker Aamer’s involved, but the gain that has been achieved by mediating release. We are trying to ensure his release, and we are in the claims is considerable and in the national interest. constant contact with them. So far as the other questions are concerned, the Several hon. Members rose— determination of this Government, as soon as we took office, has been to try to draw a line under these cases Mr Speaker: Order. There is much interest in this and move on, in the light of the policy that the right subject, and immediately afterwards we have a ten-minute hon. Gentleman supported, and on which all parts of rule motion followed by the first day in Committee of a the House agreed. This country is against torture. This very important constitutional Bill, so there is a premium country has a good, high-quality security and intelligence on brevity from Back-Bench and Front-Bench Members service. We wish to make it quite clear that it is not alike. complicit—and must not be complicit—in the torture or ill-treatment of detainees, so the sooner we resolve Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): Having these doubts and enable it to get on with its proper job been a member of the Intelligence and Security Committee of intelligence, the better. We were bogged down in for the past five years, I have reached the uncomfortable litigation and complaints which were slowly going not conclusion that if there is not to be a total breakdown exactly nowhere but could have taken years to resolve, in the intelligence-sharing relationship with the United because of all the difficulties with the admissibility of States, my right hon. and learned Friend has reached the evidence and the hearing of evidence in public. the right conclusion. However, does he agree that he For that reason, we have sought to draw a line under must now find a way of conducting such litigation things. We published the guidance on treatment of without compromising national security? Has he considered detainees, as the right hon. Gentleman said, which is expanding the scope of the Green Paper from civil cases the first step that we took. We have now resolved these to criminal cases? issues in a way that enables us to move on. We still have to wait for the police inquiry, to which he also referred. Mr Clarke: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his That is entirely a matter for the police, and no one—no sensible proposition. The same issues arise, and I will Minister or anybody else—can intervene and start certainly bear his suggestion in mind. The problem instructing the police on how to conduct such inquiries. crops up over and over again. We currently have an We cannot get the Gibson inquiry under way until the inquest into the highly important matter of the explosions police inquiries have been resolved. I do not know how on 7 July which has decided to extend itself into an long they will take—I hope that they will not take too inquiry into the activities of the intelligence services in long—but that is a matter for the police. If those informing themselves about possible risks to security inquiries lead to prosecutions, we will have to wait for throughout the country. Wholly foreseeably, it has run 757 Guantanamo Civil Litigation 16 NOVEMBER 2010 Guantanamo Civil Litigation 758 Settlement Settlement [Mr Kenneth Clarke] Government’s position on torture and other cruel and inhuman treatment. May I bring him back to the subject crash into the problem of exactly what evidence is of the police inquiries and the Gibson inquiry? Like supposed to be adduced about that in public. I have no him, I hope for a speedy conclusion to the police idea—it is for Lady Justice Hallett to resolve—how we inquiries so that the Gibson inquiry can get on with its move on in that particular case. The Green Paper will be work and bring some facts to a debate that often sadly difficult. It will be difficult to reach clear conclusions, lacks them. Would it be possible for Sir Peter Gibson but we wish to do so as quickly as possible and the and his team to start work now, even if their public and purpose of the Green Paper is to address that problem other work cannot get going yet? It would be a pity if so that we can be sure that justice is done without the police inquiries were to drag on for many more compromising national security. At the moment, there months, delaying bringing clarity to this area. is a tendency for claimants, the security service and everyone else to get bogged down in interminable litigation Mr Clarke: I share the right hon. Gentleman’s statement and judicial review. That has to be resolved. of this country’s values as far as torture and ill-treatment are concerned. I also share his impatience to see the Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): I welcome the Gibson inquiry get under way. The Government cannot, right hon. and learned Gentleman’s statement and the however, have the inquiry proceeding in parallel with comments of my right hon. Friend the Member for either civil or criminal proceedings on part of the same Tooting (Sadiq Khan). Picking up on the remarks of subject. For that reason, we must make it clear straight the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee, the hon. away that both will have to be resolved before we can Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway), may I proceed. If Sir Peter were to start, and if there were a ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman whether it prosecution arising from the police inquiries, a criminal will be possible for Sir Peter Gibson, who has great trial might be running in parallel to his inquiry. That judicial experience, to feed into the important work on would not be possible. We shall wait to see what the the Green Paper on the use of intelligence in judicial police decide, and the moment those matters are resolved, proceedings? Sir Peter will be able to begin his work.

Mr Clarke: Sir Peter Gibson has indeed been the Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Without prejudicing Intelligence Services Commissioner, and still is, although any of the facts of this case, can my right hon. and he will probably have to give that up when he takes on learned Friend confirm that any act of torture, or this inquiry. If he wishes to give his views on this conspiracy to commit acts of torture, by any UK citizen difficult question, I am sure that they will be welcome, anywhere in the world will be a criminal offence, and because, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, he is a that, as a matter of public policy, any evidence obtained considerable expert on the subject. by torture will always be inadmissible in UK courts?

Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): Is it a Mr Clarke: Yes, I can give a straightforward, positive reasonable assumption that the UK Government would answer to both those questions. Yes, that is undoubtedly not agree to a mediated settlement if there were no the case, and my hon. Friend has accurately stated the evidence whatever of UK involvement in any illegal act? position. Mr Clarke: The settlement is not to be taken as an Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I thank admission of liability, as it were. It was not in the the Justice Secretary for giving me advance notice of his interests of either party to get stuck into civil litigation statement. Given the need to preserve confidentiality in with a wholly unforeseeable outcome. As I have said, it relation to the settlement, how long does he think that could have taken years and cost tens of millions of that confidentiality will be preserved, bearing in mind pounds. Its resolution was holding up the wish of the the two serious leaks from his Department this week? Prime Minister and the Government to get on with sorting out the allegations and having a proper inquiry into them. It has cost us quite a bit of money to mediate Mr Clarke: Exactly the same thoughts have crossed them, because the complainants were pressing their my mind, but I am bound by the confidentiality agreement claims. The situation is obviously difficult and unusual, and I must hope that everyone will abide by their legal but it was right, in the public interest, to pay the money. obligations. However, I share the hon. Gentleman’s The idea that we should carry on arguing for the next uncertainty. five or six years—it could have taken that long—and find ourselves in a pale reflection of the Saville inquiry Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con): Might it be appropriate running on and on would not have done anyone any for us to seek to recover the costs of the compensation good at all, so we paid the money so that we can move payments from those individuals who are responsible, on. I think we have saved public money by not continuing in particular the former Labour Prime Minister, Tony to contest the claims. Blair, who has made tens of millions of pounds since leaving this House? David Miliband (South Shields) (Lab): I think there will be natural concern on both sides of the House Mr Clarke: The costs have been incurred in civil about Government payments of compensation when litigation between the detainees and the Government, culpability has not been admitted. It is, however, important and we have settled the matter. I do not think that that to welcome the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s would be proper—I do not agree with my hon. Friend’s statement today. I also welcome his repetition—word suggestion, and I do not think that there is really the for word, if my memory serves me right—of the previous slightest claim against the previous Prime Minister. 759 Guantanamo Civil Litigation 16 NOVEMBER 2010 Guantanamo Civil Litigation 760 Settlement Settlement Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): Does the Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): I welcome my right Secretary of State accept that many people will find this hon. and learned Friend’s statement. Further to his settlement a bitter pill to swallow? Will he confirm that, comments about Shaker Aamer, does he agree that if if our intelligence relationship with the United States we are to achieve closure gradually over the next few were to break down, which was a real possibility, it years, it is important that Shaker Aamer is released to would imperil the lives of many, many citizens of this this country so that he can give evidence to the torture country? inquiry in person?

Mr Clarke: I agree that the Government’s relationship Mr Clarke: Yes, I do agree. I know that there are with the United States and the close relationship between people who feel very strongly about the release of our intelligence services and those of the United States Shaker Aamer. We continue to be in contact with the make a vital contribution to our protection of the United States, and we continue to hope that he will be security of this country and the lives of individuals released and returned to this country. I know that my here. That must not be jeopardised. hon. Friend has been arguing and campaigning for that for some time. I agree with her, and we are doing our Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Does the best. Secretary of State agree that it would be wrong to infer from the fact that there is a confidentiality agreement Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): Is the Secretary about the substantial sums paid to these individuals of State comfortable with the fact that millions of that that confidentiality agreement was imposed at the pounds are being paid out during the week in which he behest of one side rather than the other? is announcing big cuts in the legal aid budget? Should we not be ensuring that if those who receive the money Mr Clarke: The other side wanted confidentiality as themselves breach the confidentiality agreement, or their well, I am assured. It is not at all unusual, when mediating lawyers do, the money is then taken back from them? an action of this kind, for both sides to agree that they wish to have confidentiality. My hon. Friend is quite Mr Clarke: That might involve reopening the settlement, right: there is no point in trying to read into this that which I would not be willing to do. We must be careful either side has resiled. Anyone who has been involved in about the confidentiality because, certainly in principle, any kind of civil litigation on a less serious matter will the settlement could be reopened. I entirely understand know that, often, a party that has been busily protesting that there are a large number of aspects of this with its side of the argument can be quite well advised to which everyone is uncomfortable, and which some people stop running up costs, to stop wasting management will strongly dislike. However, we must keep our eye on time, to make a reasonable offer and to get out of it. In the ball, and decide what is truly in the national interest. this case, the considerations were much more important What is truly in the national interest is allowing the for the public interest. How much longer did we want intelligence services to get on with their job, allowing us man-hours in the intelligence services to be absorbed, to put the reputation of this country beyond doubt, and and how many tens of millions were we prepared to learning lessons that may have to be learned—we do spend on interminable litigation? not know yet—from anything that Sir Peter Gibson puts forward. Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Leaving aside the cheap political point made by the hon. Member As for the legal aid proposals, we said that legal aid for Keighley (Kris Hopkins) a moment ago, let me tell would still be available, on a means-tested basis, to the Justice Secretary that I find it difficult to understand—as anyone who wished to challenge the state by way of will many people—how compensation could be paid judicial review. Other claims would have to involve unless there was substantial substance to the allegations exceptional public interest. made by those who claim that they were transferred illegally and tortured abroad. Surely the clear lesson to Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): I be learned is that a state such as ours, based on the rule welcome the statement. I am sorry that we did not do of law, must ensure that all its officials observe the rule more to speak out against Guantanamo Bay and everything of law, and must not be complicit in any way with that it stands for. The creation of the term “enemy agents abroad who carry out torture. combatants” allowed the nation, indeed the world, to ignore the Geneva conventions. Mr Clarke: It is not unusual in many walks of life for My I ask my right hon. and learned Friend to turn to a settlement to be reached with neither party making the issue of compensation for British victims of terrorism any concessions on their arguments, but both parties overseas? As he will know, those who were caught up in agreeing that the settlement constitutes a sensible way the 7/7 bombings were adequately supported and of reaching a compromise in the dispute without going compensated, but as soon as such an event takes place further. abroad we see that there is no support whatsoever, I entirely agree with the statement of principle in the whether it be in Bali, Mumbai or Sharm el Sheikh. That second part of the hon. Gentleman’s question. The is simply wrong, and it needs to change. Government are opposed to torture. Torture is a serious criminal offence. We are opposed to the ill-treatment of Mr Clarke: I know of my hon. Friend’s continuing detainees and prisoners in any circumstances. We will interest in this subject. As part of our policy considerations not condone it, and we will not be complicit in it. Those in the light of the public spending review, we are having are the essential values that we must defend, even when to examine the criminal injuries compensation system we face such dangers as we do now from terrorism in and the proposed terrorist injury compensation system. the world. We are having to decide how we should judge the 761 Guantanamo Civil Litigation 16 NOVEMBER 2010 Guantanamo Civil Litigation 762 Settlement Settlement [Mr Kenneth Clarke] Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): I welcome the statement. As I understand it, the mediation is Government’s responsibilities for compensating those designed to address the potential cost of litigation who have been injured by crime, either at home—we arising from the Guantanamo cases and is estimated to have always compensated those people—or abroad: I be between £30 million and £50 million. The inquiry is know that my hon. Friend has been campaigning for also wider than that, and will deal with non-Guantanamo that. cases where individuals have been detained in other countries. What is the estimated cost of the potential Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): A year ago, I wrote litigation in those cases? on behalf of the Home Affairs Committee to the previous Attorney-General, asking about the police inquiries, Mr Clarke: I agree that the Gibson inquiry does have and I see that the Secretary of State is surrounded by wide terms of reference, although these matters finally Law Officers today. While not seeking to influence or have to be settled. It is looking at the whole question of instruct the police, which would be totally improper, the ill treatment of detainees generally, although, of surely it is in everyone’s interests that we know if there is course, usually in cases where there is some British a timetable. What is holding up this inquiry, which has involvement, such as where our allies have been involved gone on for several years? or where we have been engaged in theatre. My hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie) takes a Mr Clarke: If the police follow these exchanges, I am great interest in these allegations and as he cannot be sure they will note the right hon. Gentleman’s impatience present today he has been on the telephone to me, that we move on and get some resolution to inquiries, because he is very anxious that rendition should be which I think have been going on for about 15 to included. 18 months. He knows, because he is as good a lawyer as I cannot give an estimate of the cost, but we are anybody else involved in these discussions, that it would anxious that there should be a reasonable time scale, be quite improper for anyone to approach the police and so is Sir Peter. We do not want this to go on for and put pressure on them to put in place a timetable or ever. The inquiry will take a general look at the position, to press them one way or the other. and it will take such evidence as it feels fit and go as wide as is necessary to guide future British policy. Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): I welcome the Gibson Beyond that I cannot go, however, because in the end inquiry, and I agree that what has been announced is this will be a matter for Sir Peter and his two colleagues necessary for the sake of our national security, but will on the panel. my right hon. and learned Friend acknowledge the concern expressed by many people that a settlement has Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): We know that the been paid using British taxpayers’ money for foreign settlement was under £30 million because that is what nationals—non-British citizens—detained in a foreign the right hon. and learned Gentleman said was the country by a foreign Government? minimum cost of the alternative. I confess that I am not a lawyer—most British people are not lawyers—but I cannot understand why the Government, in making Mr Clarke: The cases involve British nationals or this settlement, took the view that they wanted to keep the British residents. Although there is one case where that sum of money involved a secret from the British people. is a slightly doubtful statement, it had already got under Why was that the Government’s position in this case? way before we came into office, and at some stage the jurisdiction had been accepted. Twelve cases are already Mr Clarke: This was negotiated and the other side before the court, and four would have come before the wanted confidentiality, and it was settled on the basis of court if we had not proceeded as we have. We have not confidentiality, subject to parliamentary accountability. started compensating people at large for what happened I understand the hon. Gentleman, and, with great respect, in Guantanamo Bay. We have only dealt with British I anticipated his questions, as they are going to occur to residents and British citizens. quite a lot of people. We could settle this on the basis of confidentiality and we have done so. We have notified Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Have I got this the National Audit Office, I think that we offered a right? Is the Secretary of State paying out large sums of briefing to the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee money—he will not tell us how much—to people who and we have briefed the Chairman of the Intelligence are giving no guarantees about not breaking confidentiality? and Security Committee, but it would be folly to break Can it be true that he cannot say to the House that this the legal confidentiality, which was part of the settlement, matter has ended? Is he not buying time? This sounds if the result is to jeopardise the settlement and put us like money for old rope. The other week, the Conservatives back where we started. were giving prisoners votes; now they are giving them lottery millions. I think I have already discovered the Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): I am sorry to strike soft underbelly of this Government. a discordant note, but ordinary decent people out there are going to think that the world has gone mad. People Mr Clarke: In answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question, making wild, unsubstantiated and baseless allegations no, he is not right: the confidentiality is binding on both of torture are getting more money than victims of sides. The people who brought the claims have bound terrorism here in London. If, as the Secretary of State themselves by confidentiality and so have the Government. says, it is the law that has forced him to do this, what That is a perfectly usual term of a mediated settlement people out there will want to hear from him are assurances of what was going to be a hugely expensive problem for that he will accelerate proposals to change the law and the British taxpayer if it had not been resolved. ensure that we never have any of this nonsense again. 763 Guantanamo Civil Litigation 16 NOVEMBER 2010 Guantanamo Civil Litigation 764 Settlement Settlement Mr Clarke: It is the rule of law, I am afraid. The hon. to our reputation by the protracted nature of these Gentleman is prejudging the claims that were being investigations by guaranteeing that when fresh allegations fought out before the courts. The claims were for are made of bad behaviour, such as the 21 cases cited by compensation for serious problems that these detainees The Guardian following freedom of information requests, had suffered—I have met these people. The argument those present and future allegations will be investigated was about the complicity of the British security services, swiftly and thoroughly? which was not and is not admitted. The detainees were bringing a legal action. It might be that had this ever Mr Clarke: That is why we need the Green Paper, in been fought to a conclusion, the court might have come order to try to establish some rules on the admissibility to the hon. Gentleman’s conclusion that these claims of intelligence evidence or evidence that may be of were baseless, but we are never going to discover that relevance to national security. As I believe I said in now, because we have settled this. We did so as it was answer to an earlier question, this issue is cropping up not worth discovering, because the bigger public interest with ever more frequency and we need to resolve it. This was in making sure that we could put a line under all is not just something that the Government or Parliament this, get back to having the reputation of our intelligence can simply declare we are going to do. We have to services restored and get Sir Peter Gibson to advise on resolve this in a way that is compatible with the rule of how to make sure that that reputation remains intact law, with the judgments that British Courts are likely to in future. come to and with the strong opinions held by the judiciary in this country in their role of defending our Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): Will fundamental rights, the rule of law and the independence my right hon. and learned Friend assure me that if these of the courts. We have to consider our international allegations were wild and unsubstantiated, as has just obligations. It will not be easy to produce a Green been suggested, the Government would not have been Paper, but that is the secret to getting back to resolving keen to settle these cases? these matters at a decent pace. I entirely share the hon. Gentleman’s wish that we could do that, so that they Mr Clarke: I think that in all forms of litigation it is can be sorted out pretty clearly, fairly and straightforwardly wrong to start reading whether a settlement made with whenever they arise. no admissions on one side and no withdrawal of allegations Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): You will on the other indicates which side was winning—it does know, Mr Speaker, that my former constituent Feroz not necessarily do so. The fact is that these two sides Abbasi was held for many years in Guantanamo Bay in were locked in litigation, which was going nowhere fast intolerable conditions without charge and was later because of the very difficult legal problem of what freed. May I ask the Justice Secretary that if members evidence can be admitted and whether that evidence of MI5 or MI6 are found to be complicit in torture, should be admitted publicly. If Members want, they can what penalties will they face? read into this that one side was admitting it or that the other side was producing frivolous claims and got away Mr Clarke: That is speculative. I should make it clear with murder. The court was entertaining these claims; that the allegations in these cases were not, so far as I 12 civil actions were under way. But I think everybody am aware, that any member of the British security understands from the most extraordinary circumstances services had directly been involved in torture or ill of this case that it was better to settle it than just to let it treatment. They were argued to be complicit—that is, go on to see who eventually won. No one should read they had known that others were doing that and had into this admissions of liability and no one should read somehow been complicit, which is not admitted by the into this that one side packed up its claims; we just security services. That was the issue. No one, I think, agreed to come to a very sensible mediated settlement. has been accused of torturing. It would be a very serious matter if anybody in the British intelligence Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Can we demonstrate services was ever found to have taken part in torture or that we have learned the lesson of the damage done the deliberate ill treatment of a detainee. 765 16 NOVEMBER 2010 Points of Order 766

Points of Order was not the practice of the previous Administration to add injury time when we debated constitutional Bills on 4.40 pm the Floor of the House and it is not our habit either. Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I raised with you yesterday in a Mr Speaker: The exchange has taken place and we point of order the amount of time that the House will have to leave it there for the time being. would have to debate the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill when there was a possibility of there being one statement Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): On a point of today. We have now had two statements that have taken order, Mr Speaker. I want to raise a subject at the heart an hour and 10 minutes out of our time. Members will, of public debate to do with the credibility of Parliament I think, find it particularly galling that one of those and the honesty of Members of Parliament. You will statements is the result of the leak on damages settlements, know that the Deputy Prime Minister has made numerous on which we have just heard the Justice Secretary report statements on the need for openness, transparency, probity to the House. In these circumstances, Mr Speaker, what and honesty with the electorate. Yesterday, I wrote to protection can Members be offered so that we have the the Deputy Prime Minister asking for a copy of the opportunity properly to debate and discuss a major paper on tuition fees written for him by the Chief constitutional Bill that will change the way in which our Secretary to the Treasury on 16 March along with the democracy operates? paper by the Education Secretary on the same subject. Those papers are not Government publications but are Mr Speaker: I have heard what the right hon. Gentleman public interest papers. Would you, Mr Speaker, be prepared has said and I fully understand the seriousness of his to give the Library permission to hold those papers point. The short answer, however, is that these decisions— after I receive them? that is to say, decisions on the timing of Government business—are ultimately for others to make. Specifically, Mr Speaker: I have listened carefully to what the right these matters are in the hands of the usual channels hon. Lady has said and I shall happily look into this and, in particular, of the Government. The right hon. matter for her and for the House. Ultimately, of course, Gentleman might wish that it were otherwise, and many the decision on which documents that are in the hands might agree with him, but that is the position as it of members of the Government are published by the stands. However, I simply say to him, as I was able to Government, including perhaps being put into the Library, say to him yesterday, that his opposite number, the is a matter for the Government. However, as I have said, Leader of the House, is present. He will have heard I have heard what she has said, I shall look into it and I what has been said and it is open to the Leader of the shall revert to her when I have done so. House to respond if he so wishes. We come now to the ten-minute rule Bill, for which The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George the hon. Member for Glasgow North West(John Robertson) Young): Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. It has been waiting very patiently. 767 16 NOVEMBER 2010 Employment Retention 768

Employment Retention out-of-work benefits, but they should be matched by rights and guarantees to work. An approach that involves Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order too much stick and not enough carrot will not work. No. 23) There are areas in which I am at odds with the Government. I find their plans to cut housing benefit by 4.44 pm 10% for people who are out of work for 12 months, even John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): I beg to if they have done everything possible to find a job, move, abhorrent. That is the wrong approach and, without going into more detail, is completely wrong, and not That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision for a statutory right to an employment retention assessment to determine just on moral grounds. It will only add to the burdens of entitlement to a period of rehabilitation leave for newly disabled people who are already heavily laden with a disability, people and people whose existing impairments change; and for or are in rehabilitation, and will make it twice as hard connected purposes. for them to find a job. This is the fifth time that I have raised this subject in a Another issue on which I disagree with the Government ten-minute rule Bill, so if God loves a trier, he must is the cut in local housing allowance, which will mean adore me. I hesitate to add that I have seen off three that nearly all the claimants in my constituency in Labour Secretaries of State for Work and Pensions; I private rentals will lose about £43 a month. That might hope that this coalition Secretary of State will be my not seem a huge amount, but for too many of my first and last. Throughout my years of toil, it has constituents, including those who have been hit by a become clear to me that there is firm consensus across debilitating injury, degenerative illness or ailment, it the House that support should be provided to ensure could mean having to find a massive chunk of their rent that people who develop an impairment or become from somewhere else, thereby adding a further economic disabled can remain in work. The widespread support hurdle to those who want to remain in work. I have always received for this Bill is testament to the Another obvious area of contention is the employment fact that the matter is not confined to the margins of and support allowance, which replaced incapacity benefit society. and income support. The Government plan to reduce Every quarter, about 600,000 people become sick or the length of time for which someone can receive ESA, develop an impairment as defined by the late Disability and some think that the sole aim of that measure is to Discrimination Act 1995. Within a year of doing so, reduce the welfare bill rather than to make sure that 13%, or 78,000 people, will have left work. Of those recipients return to work. We know from the previous people, about 25,000 a year permanently leave employment Government’s initiative in this area, pathways to work, owing to illness or disability and never return. That that many unemployed people with disabilities take works out at more than a quarter of a million people longer than 12 months to secure employment. The since 1997, which more than cancels out the previous Shaw Trust, one of the largest charities to work with Government’s creditable achievement of having helped employers, social services and the disabled to help people 200,000 disabled people into work in the past decade with disabilities find employment, states that out of all and will no doubt hinder the current coalition. the clients whom it has placed in work so far this year, We know that as a result of such barriers, a disabled 20% had been supported for more than 12 months person is nearly five times more likely to be out of work before moving into work, and of those, a third had and claiming benefits than a non-disabled person. Crucially, taken about 18 months. The trust also states that 63% of once a disabled person is out of work they are far less all its clients on incapacity benefit included in these likely to get back into employment. Behind these statistics figures had taken more than 12 months. lie people’s lives, which often become unrecognisable as Under the Work programme proposals, the Government they suddenly have to come to terms with a permanent estimate that around 58% of the 1.5 million incapacity life-changing impairment while facing the prospect of benefit claimants will be moved on to the ESA work-related losing their employment, their source of income and activity group. This would mean a large number of even, in some cases, their home. people being rushed through the programme, potentially I have made these points before and I will continue to only to leave that job because they cannot cope, have do so until a Government address the problem. Last not adapted to their new disability, or are just not week, the Secretary of State outlined his new universal suitable, thus going back to square one. Matters could credit reform of the welfare system, which aims to move be made worse, as those with a new disability could be more people from benefits into employment, but today cut off long before a resumption of work or before I find myself again making the point that we need to rehabilitation is completed. Although the Government focus on retention if we are to stop people falling into need to elaborate further on this area, they have not the welfare trap in the first place. I welcome some of his ruled out sanctions being imposed if ESA recipients welfare reforms, and if he truly intends to make a have not secured a job. In any case, ESA recipients constructive effort to put more people into employment, would face a reduction in income which would, in turn, I hope that he will consider me and my Bill as a help place homes and family members at great risk. and not a hindrance. I mentioned that my Bill has received widespread I support the underlying principle of simplifying the support in the House and that this is shared outside the benefits system and providing real incentives to work by Chamber. On previous occasions when I have brought creating a universal credit, but the universal lesson that the Bill before Parliament, I have found support from a the Government must take on board is that we will not wide range of stakeholders, ranging from the Trades get more people off benefits and into work if there is no Union Congress to disability charities such as the Royal work for them to go into. I agree that there should be National Institute of Blind People, the Disability Rights real obligations, backed by sanctions, on people receiving Commission and even the CBI. 769 Employment Retention 16 NOVEMBER 2010 770

[John Robertson] Fixed-term Parliaments Bill [Relevant documents: The Second Report from the Political Being made unemployed through ill health will have and Constitutional Reform Committee, Fixed-term an effect on the individual’s long-term well-being, and Parliaments Bill, HC 436, and the Government’s response will also have an impact on the economy as many thereto, Cm 7951.] disabled people never return to work. The result is a strain on the state, a burden on pension funds and [1ST ALLOCATED DAY] benefit payments, and even additional recruitment costs Considered in Committee for employers to replace and train staff. Through the Bill, the Government, at relatively little cost, would be able to ensure that any regulatory burden on employers [MR NIGEL EVANS in the Chair] is kept to a minimum. It would be an investment that would reap the benefits in the short term for employers and employees, but in the long term for the Government Clause 1 through benefits savings and tax collected. As the Minister knows, for every 100,000 people who go on the dole, the POLLING DAYS FOR PARLIAMENTARY GENERAL cost to the taxpayer is £500 million. If we can reduce ELECTIONS spending by 1% and raise revenues by 1%, we can reduce the deficit by £12 billon. In this Bill I offer the 4.55 pm kind of thinking that will help us towards such goals. Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) I hope that the coalition Government will get behind (PC): I beg to move amendment 11, page 1, line 5, leave the Bill. This year alone, 25,000 people will be in need of out ‘7 May 2015’ and insert ‘1 May 2014’. these changes, and 125,000 people since I first raised the issue. All I ask of the Government is that they support The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means the Bill, prove that they want to keep people in work, (Mr Nigel Evans): With this, it will be convenient to and work with all parties to achieve that. discuss the following: Question put and agreed to. Amendment 7, page 1, line 5, leave out ‘2015’ and Ordered, insert ‘2013’. That John Robertson, Jim Sheridan, Cathy Jamieson, Amendment 8, page 1, line 7, leave out ‘fifth’ and Miss Anne Begg, Valerie Vaz, Lisa Nandy, Alan Keen, insert ‘third’. Mr Mike Weir, Alun Michael, Jack Dromey, Jon Cruddas Amendment 12, page 1, line 7, leave out ‘fifth’ and and Jenny Willott present the Bill. insert ‘fourth’. John Robertson accordingly presented the Bill. Amendment 32, page 1, line 9, leave out subsection (4) Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on and insert— Friday 4 February, and to be printed (Bill 107). ‘(4) In determining the polling day for a parliamentary general election under subsection (3) above, no account shall be taken of any early parliamentary general election the polling day for which was appointed under section 2.’. Amendment 13, page 1, line 13, leave out ‘“fifth” there were substituted “fourth”’ and insert ‘“fourth” there were substituted “third”’. Amendment 9, page 1, line 13, leave out ‘fifth’ and insert ‘third’. Amendment 10, page 1, line 13, leave out ‘“fourth”’ and insert ‘“second”’. New clause 4—Devolved legislature elections— ‘(1) A devolved legislature election may not take place on the same day as a United Kingdom parliamentary general election. (2) If a devolved legislature election is scheduled to take place on the same day as a United Kingdom parliamentary general election, then the date of the poll for the devolved legislature general election must vary by— (a) not less than two months, and (b) not more than twelve months and one week before or after the United Kingdom parliamentary general election date. (3) The appropriate authority shall make provision by order to vary the date of the devolved legislature general election, subject to agreement by the relevant devolved legislature. (4) The following election to that devolved legislature will take place on the first Thursday in May in the fourth calendar year following the polling day for the previous election. (5) A devolved legislature election is an election to the Scottish Parliament, the National Assembly for Wales or the Northern Ireland Assembly.’. 771 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 772

New clause 5—Varying of elections by the National either the political mandate from the previous election Assembly for Wales— or the unwillingness to commit to unpopular decisions ‘(1) Section 4 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 (“Power ahead of the next election. to vary date of ordinary general election”) is amended as follows. Four years—the length of time between elections for (2) In subsection (1) after “May”, insert “, subject to the National Assembly for Wales, the Scottish Parliament, subsections (1A) and (1B)”. the Northern Ireland Assembly, the London Assembly, (4) After subsection (1) insert— the London mayoral elections and local authority, community and even parish council elections in all four “(1A) If the scheduled date for a National Assembly for Wales ordinary general election is the same date as for a United parts of the UK—is quite clearly and obviously the Kingdom parliamentary general election, the National Assembly norm for the electoral cycle in the nation states. of Wales general election must be held— Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): Is the (a) not less than two months, and hon. Gentleman aware that, internationally, the four-year (b) not more than twelve months and one week before or term is pretty much the norm, particularly in Westminster after the United Kingdom parliamentary general Parliaments? Is he further aware of the academic election. opinion from Robert Hazell at University College (1B) The Secretary of State for Wales shall by order provide London’s constitution unit to Professor Blackburn, who for the date of the poll of the National Assembly for Wales consistently say that five years is too long and smells ordinary general election, with the agreement of the National Assembly for Wales, subject to subsection (1A).”.’. like a political fix? Clause stand part. Jonathan Edwards: The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. For every legislature where the Executive Jonathan Edwards: I wish to speak also to amendments 12 is decided from the legislature, the average is four years and 13 in my name and those of my hon. Friend the rather than five. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), the The only elections that break that cycle in the UK are Leader of the Opposition and his hon. Friends, as well the European elections. The elections held and the as new clauses 4 and 5. The amendments go to the crux terms that we expect are the same for elections at all of the Bill—the establishment of a specific period between levels, so why are the UK Government seeking to introduce elections and the date on which we hold the next UK a term that is different from all meaningful precedents? parliamentary elections. My party is in favour of fixed-term Parliaments, for Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Does the many of the reasons outlined on Second Reading. A hon. Gentleman accept that France has a different length, fixed-term Parliament removes a Prime Minister’s ability as does Australia? What is so special about four years? to seek the dissolution of Parliament for pure political Jonathan Edwards: I shall try to address those points gain, taking away that significant incumbency advantage— later in my speech. I think that I addressed some of more of which later in my speech. It would end speculation them in my answer to an earlier intervention. about the timing of the next election and a near-obsession with opinion polls and psephologists about when an 5pm election might be called. It provides stability for the political programme, as we have found with the One If four years is good enough for a local councillor, Wales agreement in Wales, a four-year term, where why should an MP be given any longer without once parties understand what can and cannot be achieved again putting themselves up for election to secure a within the required legislative time frame—even in our democratic mandate? The argument has been made case where the byzantine workings of legislative competence that, because the current system allows for up to five orders have held up the progress of our law-making, years between elections, that should be set in stone as denying us prompt action to solve our problems. By the new norm, but that hardly seems proportionate or providing a settled timetable, fixed-term Parliaments common sense. When there is a range of options, it is provide a firm basis for electoral administration, taking not normal to go for the most extreme, because more away the shock of a snap election and giving a more moderate measures make greater common sense and generous timetable to ensure participation in the voting attract greater consensus, especially in this Chamber. process. Let us be honest: amid the rushed and hasty constitutional changes that the Con-Dem Government have been However, I cannot understand the Government’s steamrollering through, consensus, consultation and a reasoning behind the insistence on a five-year legislative genuine attempt to reach cross-party agreement have, term, either in this parliamentary term or in the future. unfortunately, been greatly lacking. To be perfectly honest, there does not seem to be any reason. The Conservative-Liberal Democrat Government A fairer litmus test of how long a fixed-term Parliament have consistently failed to provide a good reason why might be is the average length of time between elections. the next election should be held in May 2015, not in As the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who May 2014. On Second Reading, the Deputy Prime I am glad to say will break with tradition tonight and, I Minister, with bizarre Liberal Democrat logic, presumably hope, vote for an amendment in the name of Plaid taken from a “Focus” leaflet bar graph, claimed that a Cymru and the Scottish National party, noted on Second five-year Parliament would probably amount in practice Reading, to a legislative working term of four years. As many “the average length of a peacetime Parliament”— hon. Members will already know, the five-year maximum going all the way back to the Great Reform Act of term was implemented in 1911, but even that was introduced 1832— with the expectation that the working parliamentary has been three years and eight months.”—[Official Report, period would probably be four years—a period in which, 13 September 2010; Vol. 515, c. 625.] as Lord Asquith said at the time, a Government had That is a very important point. 773 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 774

Similarly, as Robert Hazell of University college London’s A five-year Parliament was not in either governing constitution unit noted in his written evidence to the parties’ manifestos, and it was not put to a public vote. I Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, although often wonder, as I watch the coalition Government’s the balance of Parliaments has been between four and policies morph before me and see stories about the five years, those that went the whole term were those coalition discussions leak out in books and in the governed by Prime Ministers who did not believe that Sunday press, just how much influence Back-Bench Lib they would win an election after four years. A five-year Dems had over the policy negotiations. I wonder whether parliamentary term, as we saw between 1992 and 1997 they, like me, wake up and wonder which policy of and 2005 and 2010 in particular, is often therefore a theirs will be changed today. As we are getting used to result of the unpopularity of the governing party. It saying in Wales, “Anotherday, another Lib-Dem U-turn.” seems ironic that this Con-Dem Government, one of So, we are still no closer to understanding why five whose parties is already highly unpopular in Wales—with and not four years is the chosen length for a fixed term just 5% support, according to the most recent poll, in of the UK Parliament. Perhaps a wag on the Government north Wales—should opt for the length of time that is Benches—by that I mean a wit, not the more common associated with the failure to govern successfully and to tabloid usage of the word—was correct when she referred govern with public support. Perhaps that is just an to the next election date as being “ the date of the next expectation of things to come. election, cementing the coalition”. Others think that Why should this Parliament be for five years and not this is a response to the economic cycle, and the hope is four? Why should we hold the election on 7 May 2015 that by 2015 the worm will have turned and the tremendous and not on 1 May 2014? After all, when John Major gamble with our economy, our livelihoods and our and when the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and communities that we witnessed in the comprehensive Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) stayed in power for five spending review will have paid off, and we will be years, they were accused of holding on to power. Is the enjoying the fruits of a hard-won recovery. Either way, same accusation not true of the current Government? it appears to be a decision made from political expediency, There appears to be no great reason why five years and that is not in the best interests of the electorate or should be the chosen length of the new fixed-term democracy. Parliament. Ms Louise Bagshawe (Corby) (Con): My right hon. When questioned on Second Reading, the Deputy Friend the Prime Minister currently has the right to Prime Minister appeared loth to give a fuller explanation. extend this Parliament to 2015 if he wishes, so how is it I hope that we hear a better account this evening, an aggregation of power for him to give up the right to because neither was an explanation more forthcoming call an election at the time of his own choosing? from other Government Members. The hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) reminded us that his Jonathan Edwards: I think that the debate is about party’s election manifesto was for a four-year fixed-term whether there is to be five years or four years between Parliament, the proposal that my party supports. He elections. I will try to address the hon. Lady’s point as said that he did not know when the policy was changed the debate progresses. by the coalition agreement between the Conservatives Many would say that the decision to run five-year and the Liberal Democrats. electoral terms is a result of political expediency. I have I have heard much from the Liberal Democrats in recent a fair bit of experience of coalitions, and their policies months about the need for agreement and compromise should not have to be welded together in a back room in in coalition, but I am not entirely sure at whom the the way that those of the Con-Dem coalition have been. message was aimed, because my party has been part of There is a huge irony in the Deputy Prime Minister’s a successful coalition in Wales since we signed the One coming to this House to say that the coalition is taking Wales agreement in 2007. The key to success, I can tell away the Prime Minister’s right to call an election at the the Liberal Democrats, was agreeing the policy programme time of his choosing, because it is not. This addresses before signing the deal, not making it up as we went the point made by the hon. Member for Corby along, which seems to have been the case with the UK (Ms Bagshawe). The one who is currently in charge can Government. Being part of a coalition does not mean choose the longest possible time to be in charge providing that we have to sell our souls; it means that we reach a that he can keep his own party happy. practical agreement on policies. The Political and Constitutional Reform Committee notes that much of the evidence it received was against Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) the idea of a five-year fixed parliamentary term. Neither (SNP): My hon. Friend talks about the merits of coalition constitutional experts nor the public are in favour of Government, but in these islands there is a Government the new electoral system being set at this length of time. who have only 46 Members but manage to pass their Indeed, some experts saw a note of irony in that by budgets with majorities in the 70s and 80s. Coalition spacing out the time between elections at this maximum government is not always the way; there is also the length, the active participation of many voters in the minority government model, which is working very electoral system will be reduced rather than increased successfully in Scotland. or improved, as many people, sadly, choose to mark their ballot paper only in a UK general election and do Jonathan Edwards: I thank my hon. Friend for that not participate at other levels of democracy. That is point. I was remiss not to mention it. another issue that has not been considered properly in the discussions so far. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Because it is not true. On Second Reading, many Members, not least my hon. Friend the Member for Perth and North Perthshire Jonathan Edwards: We will have that debate later. (Pete Wishart), drew attention to the most salient 775 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 776 concern—that of having the elections on the same day Jonathan Edwards: I thank the hon. Gentleman for as other elections, specifically those of the devolved his point, but I was about to explain some of the Administrations. There is nothing of what Aretha Franklin, complexities involved. or even George Galloway, might describe as “Respect” That was, of course, the first election after a new in the UK Government’s treatment of the devolved system was introduced, with the single transferrable Administrations in this affair, which has been notably vote being used in local elections in Scotland. Fortunately, lacking in meaningful consultation. we in Wales had already learned lessons and decoupled our local authority and Assembly elections by a year. Mr MacNeil: Is not that point all the more serious with a UK general election, a Scottish election and a Mr MacNeil: Although it is true that the main problem Welsh election possibly happening at the same time, at the last Scottish election was the design of the ballot lined up with the referendum? We want to avoid that paper, covering both the constituency and list votes, the because we know the media cannot handle it. That man who looked into the matter, Mr Gould, nevertheless disservice will be done to Scotland not only this time suggested that different elections should not happen on but yet again in four to five years’ time. the same day. There was a feeling that that had contributed to the difficulties, even though the main difficulty was the design of the ballot paper. Jonathan Edwards: My hon. Friend is correct—it is a double insult. If these plans go through unamended, the next devolved elections in Scotland and Wales will Jonathan Edwards: My hon. Friend makes a more be terribly skewed. informed contribution than I do, but I was just getting to the Gould report. It was an independent review by During the debates on the Parliamentary Voting System the Electoral Commission, and its conclusions and and Constituencies Bill, we discussed at length the recommendations stated: principle of holding a National Assembly for Wales election on the same day as a referendum on the electoral “One of the more controversial issues in the 3 May 2007 elections was whether the Scottish parliamentary and the local system for the UK Parliament. Despite the objections government elections should have been combined on the same of Opposition parties and, perhaps more importantly, day. We were not surprised by the concerns that were expressed to those who make up the Welsh and Scottish Governments, us about this issue because pursuing combined or separate elections that Bill was passed, once again showing up the Con-Dem involves a trade-off of different objectives. Government’s disrespect agenda for Wales and the other If local issues and the visibility of local government candidates devolved nations. Ironically, even their best argument—the are viewed as a primary objective, then separating the…parliamentary idea that savings would be made through combining from the local government elections is necessary in order to avoid the polls and electors would not have to traipse to the the dominance of campaigns conducted for…parliamentary contests. polling station more once—means little in the Welsh In addition, separating the two elections would result in minimising context, as we will already go to the ballot box in March the potential for voter confusion.” for a referendum on the transfer of powers to the Welsh Government under part 4 of the Government of Wales Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): The hon. Act 2006, and then again in the following May. Of Gentleman is making some incredibly powerful arguments. course, the referendum on further powers is far more Would he like to comment on the fact that not only relevant to the National Assembly elections than the would Westminster and Scottish parliamentary elections referendum on AV. clash every five years, but the exact situation referred to I am not here to repeat the arguments we have in the Gould report—a clash with Scottish local government already had, although they remain equally relevant and elections—would happen every four years? We could valid to the amendment as they did to debates on the have the alternative vote system for Westminster while Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill. running the single transferrable vote system for the That clash of elections will occur once every five terms Scottish local government elections, which, as the Gould for the devolved Administrations and once every four report highlighted, would be a disaster. terms for Westminster elections. As yet, we have no idea when a reformed House of Lords will be elected. I am a Jonathan Edwards: The hon. Gentleman makes a great believer in not underestimating the public, and in valid point, and that seems to me a recipe for disaster. publishing the Bill the UK coalition Government are The words in the Gould report that I quoted make it failing to learn from previous practices and errors. clear to me, first, that elections should not take place at Many will remember that the 2007 Scottish Parliament the same time when there is a trade-off between different and local elections were held on the same day, with the objectives, as there clearly would be between a UK result that there were an astonishing 147,000 spoilt Westminster election and an election to the National ballot papers. Assembly for Wales or the other devolved Assemblies. Secondly, they show the problem of the dominance of Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): The hon. one election over another. National Assembly for Wales Gentleman cannot be allowed to get away with saying elections are in no way inferior to UK general elections. that all the spoilt ballot papers were because two elections To many people they mean much more, as they are a were held on the same day. The reason was the poor way of directly influencing the health and education design of the Scottish Parliament election ballot paper. policies that have an impact on everybody in one form There were two columns, and people had to put a cross or another. in each, but the instructions were not clear. That was We must consider the impact of our media, and even the reason for the spoilt ballot papers, not the fact that the failure of our politicians to understand what is at there were two elections on one day. stake at different levels. Who can forget, for example, 777 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 778

[Jonathan Edwards] It recommends separating parliamentary and local government elections. the Conservatives using in a UK general election campaign It is quite clear that the recommendations of the the words of a woman in Wales, Julie from Llandudno, Gould report could equally apply to a separation of about her concern for education, even though the matter UK and devolved elections, which involve very different was not even being voted upon in Wales, where education objectives and issues—not least in devolved issues such is devolved? Such things have an impact on the perceptions as health or education where some parties will be giving of the electorate. voters mixed messages due to the different policies that In the spring, we faced a bizarre, presidential-style operate in different parts of the UK. contest that was alien to our democracy, in which we elect candidates to Parliament and then usually select the leader of the largest party in the legislature to head 5.15 pm up the Executive. There is no doubt that giving three This clash will be further complicated by the changes party leaders additional prominence had an impact on to the UK-wide parliamentary constituencies, especially an election in which minority party candidates were in Wales. In Scotland, however, the changes are already forced to buck the trend to be elected. Were that to in place to some extent. Under the terms of the happen at the same time as a Welsh election to the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill—it National Assembly, it would cause untold damage to remains as opaque as ever as to why we debated the our democracy as Welsh issues, concerns and policies alternative vote referendum and the cut in the number would be steamrollered by the UK media. In Wales, of MPs in the same Bill while debating a fixed-term and to a lesser extent in Scotland, we face media that Parliament separately—Wales will lose probably are largely published in England and understandably 10 Members of Parliament. promote English issues and concerns. When the King That Bill also separated, or decoupled, the boundaries report was published two years ago, it was noted that in of Westminster constituency seats, which, under the a month of prime-time reports on health and education, new rules, will be set by the Boundary Commission for both of which are devolved issues, not once in 134 stories Wales. The rules make numbers on the electoral roll a was there any mention of the fact that those policies more significant criterion than geography, history and did not affect Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland. other factors, and the National Assembly constituency That was a criticism of the BBC—a public service boundaries will remain the same until the next Boundary broadcaster. Commission for Wales and will be set under the traditional rules. Mr MacNeil: I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman Although I agree in principle with those changes, it was as appalled as I was by a “Question Time”programme would have been ridiculous to have lost 10 Assembly about two weeks ago. The issue of fiscal autonomy or Members from the National Assembly because of a independence, which is of crucial relevance to Scotland change in the rules at Westminster. That was an obvious and, in a way, the UK, too, was raised by Nicola weakness in the Government of Wales Act 2006. Although Sturgeon, but David Dimbleby just did not want to hear the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies about it. Does my hon. Friend not think that that Bill contained only one Welsh clause, no time was given typifies the attitude of the BBC? Although the attitude in this place for proper discussions. was writ small in that case, in the event of an election it shows that there would be no interest at all from a Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): Despite the fact London-centric point of view to air and properly discuss that the majority of Welsh MPs asked for a debate in issues that affect the people of Wales, Scotland and the Welsh Grand Committee, which was set up for such Northern Ireland. a purpose, the Secretary of State for Wales refused that request. Why does the hon. Gentleman think that is? Jonathan Edwards: Once again, my hon. Friend makes my point for me. What is important in this context is Jonathan Edwards: The right hon. Lady knows that I that the BBC is a public service broadcaster. I hesitate am in full agreement with her. It was very important to say that the private sector is worse because it could that those issues were discussed. It was a disgrace that hardly do much worse than nought out of 134. If this the Secretary of State refused that request. issue affects the BBC it will certainly affect the private press as well. The First Deputy Chairman: Order. We are moving on The English or the UK-based media, which are, by to Bills that have already passed through the House. and large, one and the same thing, have difficulties Please can we focus on the amendments before us? handling devolution issues. Given its high penetration into Wales, it would undoubtedly skew the National Jonathan Edwards: These changes will have a clear Assembly elections. That is a salient concern and one impact as electors find themselves not merely with the that the UK Government would be wise to heed before added burden of an extra piece of paper to complete, as continuing down this route. they will in the clashing elections next May and the The Gould report of 2007 says that although turnout alternative vote referendum, but voting for different is important, it is not the only or the most important constituency locations. I am proud to serve on the consideration. Its conclusions and recommendations Welsh Affairs Committee in my first term in Parliament. state: The Committee received evidence from a number of “More important is that they engage with the campaign in a organisations on these potential problems, and reported meaningful manner and make a knowledgeable decision on their on them in our first publication of this Session, entitled ballot paper.” “’The implications for Wales of the Government’s proposals 779 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 780 on constitutional reform”. We heard, for example, testimony 2004? We had a mayoral election, a Greater London from Lewis Baston, senior research fellow with Democratic assembly election, which featured a top-up list, and a Audit. He said that full European election on the same day. The reality was “the elections for Westminster and the Assembly would be taking that there was no sense of any great confusion among place on different systems on the same day, and more complicatedly Londoners. I am sure that the Welsh electorate is no on two sets of boundaries which will hardly ever correlate with more stupid than the London electorate, and therefore each other.” that it would find a way to make the proposals work. Philip Johnson told our Committee that the coincidence of elections could have “horrendous” consequences in Jonathan Edwards: Obviously, my fears might come 2015. to nothing, but I see no reason why democracy should be held hostage to fortune in that way. The complication, Chris Bryant: I respect Lewis Baston enormously, but of course, is how the media report different elections. he is slightly wrong: there would be three different sets That is the big difference between London elections and of boundaries in Wales and Scotland, because there are those for the devolved Administrations. majority elected seats as well as regional seats. There is We are aware of the potential pitfalls, and I see no no guarantee in the Parliamentary Voting System and suitable way of dealing with them except by holding the Constituencies Bill that UK parliamentary boundaries different elections apart from each other. Of course, will respect the boundaries of the regions used for those are the known unknowns. As yet, we have no way Welsh Assembly and Scottish Parliament elections, so of knowing the unknown unknowns between now and there will be three different boundaries. the next set of elections.

Jonathan Edwards: I was coming to exactly that point. Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): The hon. Electors will have three ballot papers: one for the Gentleman has not mentioned one problem with holding Westminster constituency, which will be a separate location different elections on the same day. Many who apply for from the Assembly constituency, and a third paper for a postal vote for the Westminster election will assume Assembly regional candidates. Scotland already has that they will automatically receive a postal vote for distinct UK and Scottish Parliament boundaries, but every election, but in fact, they will not, because they they remain fixed in Northern Ireland. need to apply separately for a postal vote for the other elections. Ian Murray: The hon. Gentleman is generous in giving way to me again. If the Scottish parliamentary and UK Jonathan Edwards: The hon. Gentleman makes an elections were held on the same day, is it outwith the important point about the potential for organisational realms of possibility that my constituents would have to chaos in 2015 and about participation in those elections. go to two separate polling stations? From the perspective of candidates, another argument against the five-year fixed-term UK Parliament and the Jonathan Edwards: The hon. Gentleman highlights clash with devolved Administration elections is that the potential for organisational chaos in the 2015 elections. political parties in those countries will need to find I am concerned about those elections from an organisational suitably more candidates to contest those elections— viewpoint. probably about 90 in Wales, if the Con-Dem Government That decoupling might lead to Westminster and the have their way with the boundary changes enacted in National Assembly for Wales having very different the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies constituencies, and surely to confusion between different Bill, and about 180 in Scotland. candidates, different policy areas and different locations. Just as importantly, there will be confusion because Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman different electoral systems are used and different local makes a lot of pertinent points about the difficulties authority electoral services will take responsibility for in Wales in particular. Can he enlighten us on what different counts. consultation has taken place with the devolved Assemblies on these proposals? Mr MacNeil: Further to the point made by the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray), surely the Jonathan Edwards: I can answer the hon. Gentleman’s answer to avoiding the clash of dates is to give the point simply: hardly any. devolved legislature or Government the power to change Returning to the point about candidates, I am confident the date of elections, whether in respect of Cardiff, that my party will have no difficulty in finding quality Holyrood or Belfast. If people foresee a clash with the candidates the length and breadth of Wales, although it US presidential election, for example, a Westminster might be a different matter, of course, for smaller parties, election or—who knows?—the cup final, they could such as the Liberal Democrats. However, ensuring quality change dates. coverage, so that the electorate can become familiar with the people, and not only the party, for whom they Jonathan Edwards: I fully agree with my hon. Friend. are voting, will be doubly difficult if they are all fighting That is the intention of some of our proposals and I am for air time. grateful to him for that important contribution. Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) am sure that my hon. Friend is looking forward, like (Con): The hon. Gentleman makes the reasonable point I am, with great anticipation to finding out how the that there is a risk of confusion, but will he cast his Minister will reply to this debate. On Second Reading, mind back to the situation that pertained in London in the Deputy Prime Minister said that he was minded to 781 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 782

[Pete Wishart] Mr MacNeil: Would it not be a great sign of maturity from the Government if they could accept new clause 4 move the date of the election. Is my hon. Friend aware and accept that various legislatures—be they in Westminster, of any Government amendments dealing with this matter, Holyrood or wherever—have the right to pick their own or is this yet another Liberal broken promise? window for an election in order to avoid clashes with another legislature and to allow the media the time to Jonathan Edwards: My hon. Friend makes an important communicate properly with the populations? The latter contribution. Obviously, if there had been changes since will be difficult, as BBC “Question Time” the other Second Reading, I would not have had to make this week proved. speech or table these amendments. Jonathan Edwards: That would certainly further the respect agenda that we have heard so much about from Mr Reid: The hon. Gentleman does not seem to be the UK Government since their inception. arguing that the right length of time for this Parliament is four years. His whole case seems to be that there will I am afraid that admissions of the sort that we heard be a clash of elections every 20 years. I agree that it from the Deputy Prime Minister show this legislation would be a bad idea for both elections to be on the same up as having been flung together rather than considered day, so were the Government to give the Scottish Parliament properly.The UK Government told us on Second Reading: and the Welsh Assembly the power to alter the date of “We take these issues seriously and are not just paying lip their elections, would he withdraw his new clause? service to them.”—[Official Report, 13 September 2010; Vol. 515, c. 702.] Jonathan Edwards: I made it clear earlier that my However, we have no new amendments on the issue to preference is for four years and, as the hon. Member for discuss in Committee, and no answers have been given Rhondda has said, the norm has been three years and to the questions posed about how the Government plan eight months. Why go to five years, therefore, if the to deal with those concerns. I hope that we will hear norm over the past 200 years has been three years and more from the UK Government on the issue today, as eight months? That seems tried and tested. requested by the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs in our first report. Nobody in Wales has any confidence that their voice is being heard for as long as the UK Pete Wishart: Why on earth should it not be this Government continue to steamroller their policies through House that moves its dates? When this Bill was introduced, without time for due consideration and scrutiny. the Government knew there was to be a Scottish parliamentary election in 2015? Is it not the ultimate disrespect that this place expects the Scottish Parliament 5.30 pm to move on its behalf? What type of separation is acceptable? At present, the only available option is for elections to be varied by Jonathan Edwards: Once again, my hon. Friend makes up to one month. In the case of Wales, the power is held an important point. by the Secretary of State for Wales. Eagle-eyed Members will have noticed that I have tabled a series of new clauses to deal with that eventuality: in particular new Chris Bryant: The hon. Member for Perth and North clause 4, which refers to the devolved legislatures in Perthshire (Pete Wishart) is being a little unfair to the general, and new clause 5, which refers to the Welsh Liberal Democrats. So far it is not a broken promise, situation in particular. Those new clauses would provide but just a promise. It might become a broken promise, a mechanism for varying the date of the National but at the moment it is just a promise. Assembly for Wales general election and the elections to the other devolved legislatures in Scotland and Northern Jonathan Edwards: I thank the hon. Gentleman for Ireland, by between two months, and 12 months and a that correction. week, so as to avoid a clash with UK parliamentary On Second Reading, the Deputy Prime Minister elections under the new fixed-term system. appeared somewhat surprised that having elections on I also tabled related amendments to the Government the same day might cause problems. In fact, he seemed of Wales Act 1998, which would transfer those powers slightly perplexed, as if he had not previously considered from the Secretary of State for Wales to the National the possibility. In response to my hon. Friend the Member Assembly for Wales, as I believe that a democratically for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), who noted that elected body representing the people of Wales should be there was provision in the various devolution Acts for in charge of electoral conduct, not a Secretary of State those legislatures to vary elections by up to four weeks who frequently has no mandate. Sadly, new clause 6 has only, the Deputy Prime Minister said: not been selected by Mr Speaker, so we will not have the “That is exactly…why we need to consider whether the existing opportunity to debate that context fully. provisions are sufficient.”—[Official Report, 13 September 2010; Our amendments were tabled as it had become patently Vol. 515, c. 627.] clear that the UK Government were planning to bury That was commented on shortly after by the hon. their head in the sand. My new clauses were tabled to Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle), ensure that the issue of separate general election dates who, quite understandably, wondered why, if the Deputy for the devolved legislatures was discussed in Committee. Prime Minister was already aware of the potential for To explain that in more detail, the various Acts of problems, no provision had been made in the Bill to devolution allow for a variation of one month between counter them. Admissions of that sort show up this Bill the scheduled date for the election and a date on which as having been flung together, rather than considered it can be held, as I said earlier. Presumably those powers and properly scrutinised. are to be used in exceptional circumstances to allow 783 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 784 leeway should an unexpected occurrence take place, as that I believe that a four-year fixed term would be happened in 2003 with the outbreak of foot and mouth considerably preferable—but it would at least buy additional disease. In contrast, clause 1(5) gives the UK Parliament time to debate and enact safeguards. the power to expand that period to two months under Two suggestions other than ours have been made. those circumstances. I presume that in neither case was One is worthy of further discussion, although I do not it assumed that the date would be varied because of necessarily agree with it. It was suggested by Professor another election being held on the same day. In Wales Hazell, and it is that UK general elections should take and Northern Ireland, those powers to vary the date of place in October, thereby ensuring separation from all the general election are in the hands of the respective other elections. I would like to hear the Government’s Secretary of State, whereas in Scotland they are, I thoughts on that proposal because it might solve some believe, in the hands of the Presiding Officer. of the issues that I have raised today. The weather In the absence of any indication from the UK would still be mild, it would be during the school term, Government that they plan to deal with the issues and it would still be British summer time. The greatest raised by holding UK parliamentary and devolved problem would surely be MPs having to give up their legislature elections on the same date, our new clauses summer holidays to campaign. It is also the conference would provide a mechanism for holding devolved elections season. on a separate date at least two months before or after Another alternative, if we assume that the new political the UK parliamentary election, yet no more than 12 months cycle will be five years and not four, is that the term of and one week before or after that election. The date of devolved Administrations should be changed to represent the devolved legislature election would be recommended this new reality and should elect their Members every by the appropriate authority, with the consent of the five years, thereby avoiding the concerns that I have laid devolved body. Two months is the absolute minimum before the House today. Again, that is not the favoured that one could expect to be the difference between one outcome of my party, and it is not the policy of any of set of elections and another. Under those circumstances, the devolved legislatures or their Governments, but it is we would expect the devolved legislatures to recommend another solution that can be offered to meet some of holding an election either close to the opposing equinox—be the problems created by the Bill. that late spring, between March and May, or mid-autumn, My amendment to hold UK parliamentary elections at the end of September or in October—or a full year every fourth year, rather than every fifth year as in the apart, as we do at the moment, with the UK election Bill, is not the only one being spoken to today. The hon. taking place in May this year and the devolved legislatures Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) will argue going to the polls in May 2011. The clock would then on amendments 7, 8, 9 and 10 that elections should be be reset, so that the next election would take place held every third year. On Second Reading, he referred approximately four years later, on the first Thursday to Australia and New Zealand, which are both great in May. countries and both great rugby countries. Australia is The nature of fixed-term Parliaments—let us remember led by a woman who originally came from Barry in that we have had no need for early, extraordinary general Wales, and New Zealand is an example of the possibilities elections in Wales or Scotland since their introduction— for a coherent coalition Government. However, I am means that changes can be made in a timely and orderly rejecting this suggestion for some of the same reasons fashion, so that nobody is in any doubt about when the that I believe that a five-year term should be rejected: next election will take place. However, this is not a that it is not in keeping with the UK’s traditional perfect solution. It allows for variations in the length of four-year electoral cycle. a Parliament or Assembly, and therefore changes the Lord Asquith referred to the length of terms and the notion of a fixed-term Parliament or Assembly. We ability to provide a parliamentary legislative term between made our suggestion to remind the Government that a elections every three years. In my opinion, three years problem exists and that the present restrictions do not would be too short for a Government to come into allow enough time to avoid a hangover from one election being, develop their legislative programme and begin to to the next, even if they are held a month apart, not enact it before being judged by the electorate. Four least for our exhausted election campaign teams, never years seems to be a far more suitable time frame for mind the public. people to judge whether a Government has been successful The variation of one month between elections, which in keeping to their mandate and in improving the country. legislation currently makes possible, is better than holding Under amendment 32, tabled by the hon. Member them on the same date, but is clearly not sufficient to for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) and others, the date ensure avoidance of cross-pollination between one electoral of an election would be enshrined in the Bill, and would event and another. I have set out our preferred position, be held on the first Thursday in May every five years, which is to have a sensible and systematic four-year, irrespective of any extraordinary general elections, instead fixed-term Parliament. That would avoid all those problems. of the clock ticking again after an early election. If the There is not a problem at the moment and nothing is amendment were accepted, we might find ourselves broken, so why are we making trouble in the Bill? with more frequent clashes than once every 20 years To return to amendment 11, holding a UK election in between elections, and if that were unacceptable in May 2014, even under a five-year timetable, would at Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, it would be least provide more time to decide how to deal with the doubly so if it took place because of instability in this problems. If the UK election were held in 2014 and we place. continued with devolved legislature elections a year One problem of not restarting the clock at every later, the next clash would not come until 2019, giving election is the possibility, or even the probability, of a us a further electoral cycle to come to terms with the lame-duck Government. If an election were held three issue. That is not an ideal solution—I have made it clear and a half years into the term, a Government elected 785 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 786 democratically at the polls would have only 18 months “In the first place we propose to shorten the legal duration of before facing the people again. As I have outlined, that Parliament from seven years to five years, which will probably is not enough time for a serious parliamentary legislative amount in practice to an actual legislative working term of four programme to be enacted, so it makes no sense to years. That will secure that your House of Commons for the time being, is always either fresh from the polls which gave it authority, return to the polls so soon after an extraordinary election. or—and this is an equally effective check upon acting in defiance This is where we must trade off between the certainty of of the popular will—it is looking forward to the polls at which it knowing every election date until Wales and Scotland will have to render an account of its stewardship.”—[Official leave the Union with the practicalities of governing, so Report, 21 February 1911; Vol. XXI, c. 1749.] I shall not support amendment 32. Asquith’s reasons have been borne out in all the years I am arguing today in favour of a four-year fixed-term since then. The average length of a Parliament is not far Parliament, beginning with this current parliamentary off four years, and his points relate to the electorate. term, with the next election taking place on 1 May 2014. None of the constitutional proposals of the Deputy There is nothing inevitable about clashes between different Prime Minister—who I again note is not following his levels of elections, but that will be an outcome of the own Bill on the Floor of the House of Commons— introduction of a fixed-term Parliament that runs on a strengthens the position of the electorate versus the timetable that is at odds with the established political Crown as represented by the Government. The proposals electoral cycle of other devolved legislatures. are therefore abandoning the principle that a Government have the authority to govern but must be mindful that Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): If the Northern there is a time after which the electorate should make a Ireland Assembly were to say that it wanted its elections judgment on the actions, activities and success of that to run alongside the Westminster elections, would the Government. That is all being cast out for what I believe hon. Gentleman accept that that should be able to to be a profoundly cynical purpose: the entrenchment, happen? Or is he saying in his amendment that that or attempted entrenchment, of a particular Parliament should not happen? for five years. That requires a Bill. I do not know whether it is possible to present clause stand part arguments Jonathan Edwards: In our view, the decision should on the basis of parliamentary privilege and the series of be made at the appropriate level. very serious arguments that lie behind what we are There are four-year electoral terms for the National discussing. Assembly for Wales, the Scottish Parliament, the Northern Ireland Assembly and all other devolved bodies and Mark Tami: The hon. Gentleman hit the nail on the councils. The arrangements should be the same for head when he said that the Bill was really all about the the UK Parliament. We do not yet know when we will current Parliament, and about holding the coalition be voting for the House of Lords, a principle whose together. No thought has been given to what it actually implementation we have been awaiting for quite some means for the future; it is just about holding the coalition time, or for our police commissioners—an idea that together today. excites no one save those on the Government Benches. The five-year terms of the European Parliament are an 5.45 pm aberration from our electoral norm. The proposals in Mr Shepherd: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his the Bill would also be an aberration. support. I believe that that will be the wider judgment. A four-year Parliament beginning in 2014 would have What was reflected in a previous Bill is emphasised in the advantage of avoiding the problems associated with this Bill. clashes between UK general elections and those of the The Bill has not, of course, received pre-legislative devolved legislatures, which are many. The Bill has been scrutiny in the traditional way, but nor did Asquith’s presented to Parliament as a fait accompli, with no Bill. That Bill was an attempt to bring together the good reason as to why the next election must be in 2015 threads of our constitutional history. What distresses and why there must be five-year Parliaments. Political me most about this constitutional arrangement, and the expediency is not the best principle on which to base actions of the coalition Government, is that they think good law-making. I fully support the concept of fixed-term that we are all back-of-the-envelope legislators who set Parliaments, but I cannot support a five-year fixed-term aside the traditions and history of our own constitution. Parliament that will have strongly negative effects on They are trying to legislate for something that I believe democracy. I hope that the UK Government will see sense is unnecessary. A Government last for as long as that on this matter and respond positively to this suggestion, Government can command a majority in the House of rather than putting their head in the sand and trying to Commons: that is a fundamental constitutional proposition brazen through a five-year parliamentary term without in the Parliament Act. consensus in this House or among the other Parliaments in the UK. We shall be pressing amendments 11 and 12 Mr Mark Field: My hon. Friend will know that I to a vote, and we will not support clause 1 if it remains share many of his fears about the Bill, along with the in its present format. other constitutional change that has been proposed. However, in so far as we are to have fixed-term Parliaments, Mr Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): I might it not be regarded as even more cynical if we shall support all those amendments that propose a moved away from the five-year norm which has, as my four-year fixed-term Parliament, and in so doing I shall hon. Friend says, been in place for the last 99 years, even invoke someone who when I was growing up was if that five-year norm is a maximum? considered a great Liberal. Mr Asquith spoke in the Chamber that preceded this one, and, in a recent Mr Shepherd: The point is that the coalition Government debate on 21 February 1911 on the Parliament Bill have set their heart on five years, so that is the proposition which was to change the Septennial Act 1715, he said: that we are examining. I was trying to advance the 787 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 788 arguments that were presented to the House as recently between elections is very prevalent. It was the period expressly as 1911, but the post-1945 chart, featuring 17 or 18 elections, approved of as being normal in practice, when the Parliament Act shows that, in all but four cases, the average length of a set the period of five years as a maximum.” Government has been about four years. The principle That is a reference back to Asquith. Professor Blackburn behind that is fairly closely related to what Asquith goes on to say: said. It is right that there should have been a recent “In an ideal democracy it may be that there should be elections renewal of a Government’s mandate; it is right that a as frequently as possible—even annually as supported by the Government should be mindful that they face an election. Chartists in the eighteenth century”. But if we are to adopt fixed-term Parliaments, what is The hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell), the right period, given that the Government concerned who is present, has tabled an amendment proposing a command a majority in the House? period of three years, and we could refer back to the Chartists, so it is clear that these arguments were not Mr Mark Field: In fact, there have been 17 elections unfamiliar at different times in the history of this country. since 1945, and the average length of a Government has There was an argument that we should have annual been three years and 10 months. Does my hon. Friend elections; that was a powerful movement in the early agree that when the four-year term has been the norm, 19th century. It was thought that Parliaments and that has been because a Government have gone to the Governments must not move too far from the opinion country at the time that they feel is best for them, of the public and the electorate. whereas when a term lasts for the full five years, that has generally been because the Government in question had Tristram Hunt: Professor Blackburn’s speech is very little choice? In other words, there has been an particularly interesting, because he goes on to say— element of expediency—one might even call it cynicism— [Interruption.] Well, I will let the hon. Gentleman read behind the actions of Governments who have used the it out then, because the key point is in the following maximum five-year term for their own benefit. paragraph.

Mr Shepherd: There is, of course, no question about Mr Shepherd: I have lost my place as a result of the that in my mind. Governments will try to engineer an hon. Gentleman’s intervention, so let me recap what election at the moment that is most convenient for Professor Blackburn said: them, although it may not be the best point in the cycle “It was the period expressly approved of as being normal in of public opinion, or relate to the sense of the House as practice, when the Parliament Act set the period of five years as a a settled House. maximum. In an ideal democracy it may be that there should be elections as frequently as possible—even annually as supported Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman said that Asquith’s by the Chartists in the eighteenth century—but a government Bill did not receive pre-legislative scrutiny. Does he must be allowed a sufficient period of time in which to put its agree that we might be more relaxed about a lack of programme of public policies into effect before submitting its pre-legislative scrutiny if the Government were willing record of achievement, or otherwise, to the voters. Three full to reach out, listen, and take ideas on board—considered legislative sessions, and certainly four, is sufficient for this purpose.” ideas that were not on the back of an envelope? May I I believe that that is correct. suggest, in the context of new clause 4, that whether we support four years or five, it makes sense to allow other Chris Bryant: I agree with the point made in the legislatures in the United Kingdom to alter, or tweak, quotation that the hon. Gentleman has read out; indeed, what they are doing in relation to either Westminster or I was going to refer to that passage in my speech. For a five-year term? the sake of accuracy, however, I should point out that the Chartists were really in the 19th century, not the Mr Shepherd: There is a simple amendment which the 18th. I hope that that does not invalidate the historical hon. Gentleman did not table, and which was not record. discussed in the lengthy and closely read speech of the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Mr Shepherd: What a trivial point, but I thought I Edwards). That amendment would state that the general had said the 19th century. I stand corrected if I did not, election must take place on, let us say, the first Thursday and I am sorry if I misinformed the Committee. in October. That would meet the point for which the [Interruption.] No, I do not think I was quoting at that hon. Gentleman argued at such great length—that he point. [Interruption.] I said the 19th century, I think. I should not have to deal with the coincidence of elections am well aware of that fact; it was part of my own on the same day. He did not table that simple amendment, training. however, and as it is not on the amendment paper I The central issue, however, is the legitimacy of cannot speak to it. Governments and the determination of what is the I find Professor Blackburn a most interesting speaker right period for enabling the people to have a view, and on the constitution. In the evidence he gave in a control, over the Crown as represented by the Government memorandum on electoral law and administration, he in this place. makes the following point: “In the UK, there can be little doubt that the period between Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): I apologise for general elections should be four years.” interrupting the hon. Gentleman. I can see from his face That is what we are debating now, and it is arguable. He that he is not particularly happy about it. However, may continues: I ask him to make his position clear? Does he feel that “The proposal for fixed term Parliament as a whole should fit there should still be flexibility in the calling of elections, as closely as possible into existing constitutional expectations, or does he support a four-year term? I am a little and the idea that four years is about the right length of time confused as to where he is taking his argument. 789 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 790

Mr Shepherd: I am sorry if that is the case. I am of a set of rules for getting rid of a Parliament and for speaking in support of those amendments that call for a the terms and duration of it. These proposed measures four-year Parliament, as opposed to the Government’s for fixed-term Parliaments should take effect for future position, which is that there should be five-year Parliaments. Parliaments; they should not bind this one. I accept, of course, that Governments face exigencies. We well remember that Mr Blair postponed an announced Mr Shepherd: I was elected under the law as it then date of an election because of a nationwide country stood, and I expected that the length of term in place at alarm over foot and mouth disease. There has to be an the time would apply. I also expected that any Prime element of flexibility for such circumstances. War would Minister would make decisions in that context. As well clearly alter the schedule for elections too, and Parliament as my question of the relationship of the electorate to has within its means the ability to extend the period at the House of Commons to the Executive, there is another such times, because this is the sovereign body for the that hangs over this entire argument: why do we need United Kingdom. That point should be borne in mind: any of this? What improvement does it bring to the however much I may rejoice in Scotland and the Scottish current position? Parliament, in Wales and the Welsh Assembly, and in the arrangements in Northern Ireland, the Westminster Parliament is the fount of the authority under which 6pm national elections for this place are held. Therefore, Mark Tami: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that although the House should bear in mind any exegesis neither Front-Bench team argued the case? I cannot on inconveniences, ultimately it is for those of us who recall anybody having argued for a five-year term, apart are sent here by the people to represent them to decide from now, when it is convenient for the coalition parties what is in the interests of the United Kingdom as a to wed for this period of time. whole in the formation of a Parliament that holds to account the Government whose Members sit on the Mr Shepherd: The proposal suits the Government for Treasury Bench in this House. That is all; I am, in truth, their own purposes, and that is why the nation at large is making a very simple argument. I think four years is cautious, as are many Members on both sides of this more appropriate than five. That is what this is about. I Chamber. think there is sufficient flexibility. I have cited certain authorities, such as Professor Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): Does my hon. Friend Blackburn and Asquith. I do not want the argument to appreciate that many of us may well be cautious, because be lost to a lot of academic writers, however. Professor although we are concentrating on the question of a Hazell at University College London is a former civil fixed-term Parliament, when we move on we will be servant; he worked in the Cabinet Office. I want to hear examining the question of an early general election and about the great constitutional writers who informed questions of confidence—confidence in whom and for past debates, but that is singularly missing when this what? We will also deal with whether such questions House comes to discuss what is right. We do not talk should be decided by a simple majority or one of two about the experience of previous times. thirds. These hugely important questions go straight to the heart of the future of this Parliament. What is the reasoning behind this clause? It appears to suit the personal convenience of a coalition. Most people I meet see and understand that perfectly well. Mr Shepherd: My hon. Friend is, of course, right. Why would we support such a measure if we are This is a hugely important constitutional Bill and we representing the people and the interests of this House should not doubt that. Every commentator of any of Commons? That is the burden of the arguments I am serious worth has noted that this is an enormously putting forward for a four-year term rather than five years. important constitutional issue and we will try to tickle out its ramifications, including for parliamentary privilege, I also want to repeat that I regret that the Government within our very tight timetable. What he says is true and have made no case for five years. That has been a major just, and we should listen to it. omission in all these constitutional debates. They assert, without authority or reference to anything, that the Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I note my hon. needs are such that five years is somehow a more Friend’s observations about America. Of course, its suitable period. By and large, I do not believe in international terms really are fixed: the Senate cannot alter its six comparisons, but I note that most modern democracies— years, the President cannot alter his four years and the United States, for instance, with its 200-year-old Congress cannot alter its two years. What we are saying, constitution and President—work to a four-year cycle which is consistent with the Parliament Act 1911, is that in determining who is to be their chief executive. The five years would be the expected norm. As my hon. United States works to a six-year cycle, with third Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) notes, at least terms, for the Senate, and a two-year cycle for its two mechanisms could bring an end to a Parliament equivalent body to our House of Commons. Our tradition should this House decide, so we are stopping the Prime has been different. Minister from having an election early for expedient purposes. Instead, we are saying that there should be a Mr Mark Field: Does my hon. Friend not appreciate five-year term, as suggested in 1911 and as used by that if we are to have a fixed-term for this Parliament, several Parliaments afterwards— five years is the only acceptable period? If any other term had been proposed, that would have been felt to be The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means entirely cynical. Is not my hon. Friend’s argument essentially (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Interventions are supposed that these changes should only be put in place for future to be brief. I think that Mr Shepherd has got the gist of Parliaments? We were all elected on 6 May on the basis the point. 791 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 792

Mr Shepherd: I make the gentlest of suggestions to with something that most of us have not experienced my hon. Friend that he misleads himself. I provided the before: a coalition. One party of that coalition took no quote from Asquith which set out the position as the part in the negotiations that formed what I call the House then understood it, and it has turned out, by and “image of gold” but what is known as the coalition large, to be correct over the intervening years. I do not agreement; no one on my side formed that, other than want so to close down the options of this House that those who are now in the Executive. So this matter is when a Government fail or cannot command a majority very difficult and very sensitive, which is why people are there is not a general election, as such an election is very delicate about it. However, we are now dealing necessary for the public will. However, as the long title with the substance of our old constitution and the makes clear, we are looking at a Fixed-term Parliaments merits of that, and it is its merits that I believe are Bill and the suggestion on the table is for the term to stronger than the proposals put forward by the coalition. last five years. I do not understand where my hon. Friend is coming from if he thinks that in 1911 the Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) (Lab): I rise to proposal was for a full five-year term—it was not. speak to amendments 7 and 8, which stand in my name and ask for triennial Parliaments. That makes me feel Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): positively like a constitutional Trotskyite, coming forward This is a most intriguing debate and my hon. Friend as the blazing radical in this song and dance for a speaks with great passion and impartiality about these five-year or four-year term. Amendment 11, which proposes important matters. Surely this Parliament can opt for a a four-year term, is perfectly acceptable as it is a good five-year Parliament but it cannot bind future Parliaments. amendment. The hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills Should those Parliaments wish to change the arrangement, (Mr Shepherd) quoted from Asquith’s powerful and they will be able to opt for a four-year or a three-year effective speech. I was going to refer to it at length, but I Parliament, or whatever they should wish for at the shall not now do so because he has given us it pretty time. well in full. That speech set out that in legislating for five-year terms the then Liberal Government were Mr Shepherd: But the options are closing. This measure actually saying that the expectation would be for earlier is part of a constitutional package. We passed a piece of elections, so that was to be a maximum term, not the legislation that may introduce a new electoral system norm. The provision before us attempts to create a and that may ensure that no one party has an overall norm of five years. majority in the future, so to say that we are able to change something will be a matter of great negotiation Andrew Bridgen: Would the hon. Gentleman just across the Floor of the House. That is why I am very remind the House how long the previous Parliament cautious about accepting changes to established norms ran for? and constitutional practice as we have experienced it over my lifetime and since 1911. Austin Mitchell: If the hon. Gentleman bides his time a little, I shall deal with exactly that point. He is making Pete Wishart: The hon. Gentleman talks of Asquith, the very sensible point that bad Parliaments last for five but may I bring him up to date with perhaps a less years and Governments in precarious or disastrous illustrious modern Liberal, the Deputy Prime Minister? situations try to hang on for as long as possible. That Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this measure is all perhaps indicates why he is not going to support this about survival? It is about a Liberal deal to try to get Bill: it is an indication that his Government are going to this coalition through and not at all about any great, try to hang on for as long as possible—for five years. grand constitutional reform. It is about the survival of the Liberals in this Government. Neil Carmichael: At least one manifesto that has come to my mind was entitled “The Next Five Years”; I Mr Shepherd: We all draw our own conclusions, and I believe it referred to 1959 to 1964, and so it turned out suggested something. What we are clear about is that to be. So at least then the norm was five years, and there the Deputy Prime Minister has just repudiated Liberal really are more normal expectations of that than meet Democrat—as they now call themselves—fixed positions the eye. on two Bills. The first was the voting system, and the Liberals are doing the same on this measure; they had a Austin Mitchell: Again, that was because the then fixed position but it is gone. We ask what the motives Government were hanging on, as Macmillan was replaced are, but there is no point in my attributing motives—the by Sir Alec Douglas-Home. They had to hang on to the world and its wife will do that for us, so we do not need bitter end, which was October 1964, because they were to worry about it. disastrously placed in the polls. That is another example What we want to maintain is the constitutional right to support my argument, which is that bad Governments of the people we represent and the balance of power want the maximum. This Government are a bad within this Chamber between the Opposition and the Government and they are trying to legislate for the Government, and between Front Benchers and Back maximum—they are trying to set bad practice in concrete. Benchers. All that is now at risk and has been for a long time. We have to have that respect in ourselves back in Mr MacNeil: As I listen to the hon. Gentleman, I this House; we have to believe that we can talk to wonder whether cause and effect are a bit mixed up. Government freely and frankly. The purpose of my One complaint that we have had in the past is about the speech was, in part, to create a debate, rather than just Government holding an election at a time of their to make a statement of fixed positions, because the choice when they feel the runes are looking good for calibration of each Member of Parliament is an important them rather than fixing the democratic process in some right in itself. This House must find that when dealing way so that the gerrymandering of polity and of the 793 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 794

[Mr MacNeil] Austin Mitchell: I agree entirely. I am sorry to have interrupted my hon. Friend’s intervention with the answer climate in the country could not happen. The idea of to the question, but that is right. This is an arrangement having a fixed Parliament is exactly that. It is best fixed by two parties seeking to hang together, to bind themselves at four years, I think—the hon. Gentleman thinks that to each other and to carry on for five years. There is no it is best fixed at three—but the problem in the past has system of constitutional thought or political theory—it been that it has been for five years and was then cut is sheer, simple opportunism. short. It is not the length of time that makes a Government bad; it is just that bad Governments run out of time but Tristram Hunt: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for would keep going for six or seven years if they possibly giving way. The hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills could. (Mr Shepherd) did not give the key quote from Professor Blackburn, who said: Austin Mitchell: I accept that point. The argument “It is likely that the Coalition’s concern with concretising its for fixed terms used to be that Governments would political alliance, and having the longest period possible in which manipulate the economy to suit their own purposes to implement its tax increases and cuts in public expenditure and and would go to the country when it suited them. Now then recover sufficient popularity in time for its next meeting with Governments are so disastrously buffeted by economic the electorate, has affected its judgement in this matter.” circumstances that they will seek to hang on as long as Is it not politics that is driving this rather than any possible. grander constitutional vision?

Neil Carmichael: How bad does the hon. Gentleman Austin Mitchell: As an ex-academic, I find that the think the Attlee Government were from 1945 to 1950? best way of alienating the House is to quote other academics, so may I just say yes to that question and Austin Mitchell: In fact, they created the— move on? I was making the point that around the world, the The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. First, it is not most democratic polities—I gave Australia and New necessary for the hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) Zealand as the examples—have more frequent and more to wave—he simply has to stand up. Secondly, can we regular elections. The less democratic polities have longer stay within the scope of the amendments? I think the spaces between elections—witness the French presidential Attlee Government might be a little wide of them. system, where it was seven years, or the old British constitution when it was an oligarchical system with seven-year terms. This is an issue of basic democracy. Austin Mitchell: The second Attlee Government lasted from 1950 to 1951. However, that was an attempt to The measure is not an attempt to think about the detour me and I do not want to be detoured down all constitution and to reform it along sensible lines; it is a the happy little roads that Government Members would political fix. The Government have just gone for the rather turn us into. longest time they think they can possibly get away with. That is it. They want the coalition to be bound together, I think that four years is perfectly acceptable. It nailed together and stuck together for five years and would be good and I would be happy to support—indeed, they hope that they can do that with this measure. They I will support—that amendment. Three years would be are entrenching bad practice. Most Governments in this better. It is not a downward option—it is not like the century have gone for shorter terms than sitting out old programme that Yorkshire Television used to do, so the maximum. As I said earlier, it is only the bad that we go five, four, “3-2-1”. I will not go as low as the Governments—the failing Governments—who have gone Chartists’ demand for annual Parliaments; I am staying right up to the buffers. Governments who are in a mess at three. Around the world, a pattern can be seen—the cling on because they are deeply unpopular. more democratic the society and the polity, the more frequent and regular are the elections. I would put at the head of that democratic tree Australia and New Zealand, 6.15 pm which have three-year Parliaments that work happily. I Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): On the used to write about New Zealand that if there was a specific point that it is always a failing Government who seizure of power by the Chinese Communists, New go the five years and cling to power until the last before Zealanders would still be standing outside the polls in leaving, I recall that the 1987 to 1992 period resulted in November of every third year ready to vote because the same party being returned. they have the conditioned habit of voting. It is a good conditioned habit and three years is a good term. Austin Mitchell: I am baffled—I mentioned Governments in a mess and a Government Member stands up to tell Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Is not the important me that the mess was bigger than I thought it was. Is point about this Bill the fact that it is a five-year that the point he is making? My point is quite simple. Parliament Bill? There are deeply unpopular Governments—Governments in such a state as this Government have reduced themselves Austin Mitchell: Yes. to in six short months—who hang on to power.

Ian Lucas: That is the key issue for the Liberal Alec Shelbrooke: The hon. Gentleman refers to a Democrats and the Tories. They do not care whether it Government reduced to the state that this Government is a fixed Parliament or not, but it has to be five years in are in. They are easy words, but will he clarify his order to preserve their political position. comments? 795 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 796

Austin Mitchell: Falling behind in the polls, implementing statesmanlike argument that we have just heard. We unpopular measures, failing and visibly disagreeing with should all ask ourselves where the five-year period each other—is that not a description of the coalition comes from. Where have the Government plucked it Government at present? They have achieved that after from? What is the inspiration behind the Bill? Perhaps six months. It took John Major’s Government more we could have some explanation of why a five-year than four years—certainly within five—to reach the period has been chosen. It was not in the Conservative state that this Government have reached in six months. party manifesto. That is my point. Governments in that situation normally try to hang on. The two examples that I would give are Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con) rose— the Major Government, which went right to the buffers, and my own Labour Government this year, which should Austin Mitchell: Ah, perhaps we will hear an explanation. have gone to the country in 2007, when a new Prime Minister took over, but hung on hoping for better Mrs Laing: May I suggest that it comes from the things that did not come. current law that a Parliament can run for five years?

Neil Carmichael: May I just say that this debate has Austin Mitchell: And trains could run on time, but nothing to do with changing the Prime Minister during they do not always. If the hon. Lady had been here for the five years? That is not in the Bill at all. We are the speech by the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills, discussing the length of the Parliament. she would have heard the answer: five-year terms are the maximum, but the expectation is that Governments will Austin Mitchell: I see another detour on the route go to the country sooner. Most do go sooner because map so I shall not go down that road. I had my own that is sensible practice, which is what the amendment proposals once for a maximum six-year term for Prime seeks to install. Ministers. The current Prime Minister said during the course of the election that if the Prime Minister changed, there should be an election within six months of that Mrs Laing: I am afraid that I have to disagree. There change—something that seems to be missing from the is no expectation that a Parliament should run other Bill but which have been relevant. than for five years. In the past century, there have been some five-year and some four-year Parliaments. There The Government are trying to entrench bad practice is no such expectation, but there is a law and it says in this Bill and our amendments—mine for a very five years. democratic three years and amendment 11 for four years, a sensible and statesmanlike version of my democratic Austin Mitchell: It says up to five years, and the stirrings—are trying to stop them doing so. Government are seeking to make five years the compulsory length of a term, so far as they can entrench that in the Andrew Bridgen: The hon. Gentleman talked about bad constitution. Had the hon. Lady heard the preceding practice. Does he agree that an example of the worst debate, she would have realised that, historically, most sort of bad practice was the farce that was the autumn Governments have gone to the country before their five of 2007 and the election that never was? years were up. Austin Mitchell: I just said that it would have been Alec Shelbrooke: That is all very well and good, but sensible had the Labour Government gone to the country the hon. Gentleman is overlooking the fact that, for the in 2007—not only because we would have won, but first time, Parliament, and not the Prime Minister, will because it was good and it would have been right to ask have the power to dissolve Parliament. for a new mandate for a new Prime Minister. The Labour Government made a mistake and in consequence they hung on too long towards the end. I cannot see Austin Mitchell: Parliament will have the power to that I can break down and make any more confessions dissolve Parliament on a two-thirds vote, I think, in this in the Chamber. That is an assessment of political ludicrous legislation, so I am not quite sure what the reality. That is what Governments who are in difficulty hon. Gentleman is saying. I am saying that we should do—they hang on—and that is what the Bill seeks to legislate for three-year Parliaments, which would be entrench. sensible, and I am asking where the five-year term has come from. How did it come into the heads of this Government? Did it spring fully armed from the head Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): of the Prime Minister? My hon. Friend is making some very good points about Governments hanging on for five years, but is not the crucial point that if all precedent and practice in this Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South country are for four-year Governments, and four-year Pembrokeshire) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman give terms for other directly elected positions, the Government way? need to advance a strong case for extending the period to five years? They simply have not done that; indeed Austin Mitchell: I have taken enough interventions they refuse to do so. Is that not what we should consider for the time being. I want to make a few points of my today? own instead of being forced to respond to questions about hypothetical situations that I have not dealt with. Austin Mitchell: I agree absolutely, but that argument The Conservative party did not mention fixed-term relates to amendment 11, which seeks four-year terms, Parliaments in its manifesto, but we did: Labour had a whereas I am arguing for more democratic three-year fixed four-year term in its manifesto. The Liberals, terms, so I must have a more radical argument than the insofar as they had a position—they always have a lot 797 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 798

[Austin Mitchell] This House is a great hiding place: the longer we stay here between elections, the more out of touch with the of contradictory positions—had what the Deputy Leader people we get. They want us to be more accountable of the House said when he was their spokesman on and to listen more and they want more frequent contact. constitutional affairs, when he urged four-year terms. We cannot dodge that responsibility or say that reasons Perhaps he has had a message from the new leadership of statesmanship or coalition politics require us to stay telling him to rescind his speeches from when he was the hiding in this place, out of touch with the people, for Liberals’ constitutional affairs spokesman. Will he listen? five years. The condition of our being here is that we I know that he is very comfortable on the Front Bench—he need to renew that contact as regularly as possible. is built for it—but there is no need for him to change his I seem to have been here for so long that I could have views on this issue so radically and dramatically as he come in with that Asquith election victory that led to seems to have done. reform of the House of Lords in 1910, but I began my So the Liberals wanted four-year terms, the Conservatives political career by dreading elections because one has to had nothing about it in their manifesto and I argue that go out and force oneself on people and they may not five-year terms are too long. I agree that we should have want that. One has to leap up to them with a handshake had an election in 2007. That would have meant the and a fixed grin. One has to give them one’s opinions, Labour Government going much sooner. Why am I listen to them and ask them questions—talk to them. proposing three-year terms? The Executive always want That was a nervous ordeal for me and I was terrified, longer terms, because they want to be in power for as but over time I have come to like elections more and long as they can and because longer terms allow more more, particularly if I win. That is another reason why I time for more mistakes and for tough measures to hit would like more frequent elections. They are a form of the people. There are certainly some tough measures renewal and of contact with the real world that we do coming from this Government, which might be why not otherwise get in this place. they want a five-year term. Regular and more frequent elections hand power back to the people, which is what Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): It is very the people want. They want us kept on a shorter leash. entertaining to hear about the hon. Gentleman’s That is what the feeling of hostility to politics, Parliament, campaigning techniques and fixed grin, but would three-year parties and politicians that built up last year indicated terms not simply promote short-termism? One thing to me. Triennial elections would certainly keep us on a that the electorate do not want is short-term thinking in shorter leash because we would have to go back to the their Governments and politicians. They want them to people more regularly. They are suspicious of us; they take the right long-term decisions for the good of the think that we are out for ourselves and they want to country. control us more effectively. Austin Mitchell: And what happens now as Governments Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): The hon. sit in power for up to five years? They tremble at what Gentleman is being customarily generous in giving way. the Daily Mail says to them about the angry middle Does the experience in the congressional elections in the classes, they fear what The Daily Telegraph says and United States not show that their two-year terms mean they are denounced by the Daily Express. That kind of that members of Congress, once re-elected, are constantly jelly-like impact is something that I want to avoid. Let considering fundraising, canvassing and campaigning us not listen to what the Daily Mail tells us the people for their re-election, thereby undermining the electorate’s think—let us listen to the people. Let us go back and faith and trust in them? listen to them more frequently, because their opinions are honest. They are not distorted for some party Austin Mitchell: The US House of Representatives, political purpose by a newspaper like the Daily Mail or which is the equivalent to our House, has a two-year The Daily Telegraph, which caused my Government and term, which is very democratic, but I am proposing a cause this Government to quake. Let us listen to the three-year term, which would cause us to go back to the people and not to those who arrogate the voice of the people much more regularly than we do now. The people people for their own purposes. want to be heard. An outstanding feature of our democracy as it has developed is the people’s desire to be listened to by this place, which they so angrily asserted in 2009. It 6.30 pm is frustrating for people to feel that we do not listen. What better way is there of consulting the people? We Elections bring us into contact with a section of the should do it not through polls but through regular electorate that cannot speak through the Daily Mail, elections, as in Australia and New Zealand, where three-year The Daily Telegraph or the Daily Express—the deprived, terms work very effectively. the poor, the unemployed. Our job is to serve those The people want us to be accountable, and more people, and elections are a means of renewing that regular elections are the best way of keeping us accountable. contact, which is difficult to maintain with the parliamentary Elections bring a great renewal of energy and contact week, the legislation before us and the burdens of this with the people. They are great for concentrating our life. Elections send us out to the people—all levels, all role of representing them and voicing what they want in ranks, all types of people. We are open and exposed, we this place; they recharge the batteries. More frequent are there to answer their questions and to talk to them, elections would make us more vulnerable, more amenable listen to them and discuss with them. and more prepared to listen to the people because we That is why elections should be more frequent. They would have to be out there every three years listening to are basic to the democratic process. They are not a and meeting people and persuading them in a way that David Dimbleby-fest, a David Butler-fest or a psephology- is not provided for anywhere else in our system. fest—a calculation of figures. They are a people-fest. 799 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 800

Mr Jackson: The hon. Gentleman is always entertaining, Westminster without consultation with the Northern and I pay tribute to the fact that on the day the Labour Ireland Assembly, the Welsh Assembly or the Scottish party lost a 22,000 majority in 1977, they returned the Parliament to have their view on the process, so that we hon. Gentleman in Grimsby, but will he tell the House can all have a democratic say about what happens? how many people in the Dog and Duck in Great Grimsby have said to him, “I won’t vote for you, Mr Mitchell, Austin Mitchell: I agree absolutely. That is the best because the term will be five years instead of four ”? indication that this is a constitutional fix, a coalition deal, a rather squalid political manoeuvre, rather than a Austin Mitchell: None, but perhaps people will not matter that can be discussed and presented to Northern vote for a candidate because he is too old and might not Ireland, Scotland and Wales and discussed with the last a full term. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that legislatures there, because it has repercussions for them the issue is not frequently raised, but there is a feeling, as it does for us. and there was at the end of the previous Government I had better come to a conclusion. The conclusion is and at the end of the Major Government, that the simple: three-year Parliaments would give the people Government have gone on too long. That is what I want the power that they need and want not only to keep us to avoid. accountable, but to throw the rascals out—throw out There is a feeling among the public that they want us the Government if they do not like them—every three to go back to them more frequently. They want to meet years. I hope it is a power that they can exercise sooner us more frequently. They want us out there in the than May 2015 on the present lot. streets, canvassing more frequently. That is why I say that more frequent and regular elections are basic to Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I shall make democracy. They put the people in power and they a short contribution. I have a great deal of sympathy make the politicians prostrate before the people. The with the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for people can tell us what they want, and that is what it is Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) for all about. a four-year term. I am not quite so enamoured with the The role of the House, as the hon. Member for idea of three years, and I shall say something about that Aldridge-Brownhills said, is to hold power to account—to in a moment. hold the Executive to account. We do not do it very well However, I could not agree with the manner and the because, with a party majority, the Executive and the tone of some of the contributions in the past hour or Prime Minister drive a steamroller through the House. two from the Opposition Benches. Silly comments about Mrs Thatcher would shout down at us “Get out of the Con-Dem Governments, political posturing and so on way,” and we would tremble. With John Major, the are not helpful to an important debate about the steamroller wandered all over the place, but the Executive constitution of this country. I do not believe for one are still powerful. moment that any kind of dodgy, underhand dealing is The only real way of holding power to account in this going on. country is to put it before the people more regularly in triennial elections and give them the power to throw the Mrs McGuire: If the hon. Gentleman repudiates that rascals out—give them that choice every three years. intention, why was there no attempt to reach a cross-party That is basic to democracy. consensus on a major constitutional Bill?

Mr Shepherd: And does not the Front Bench demonstrate Andrew Percy: I am just a lowly Back Bencher. I the point that the hon. Gentleman is making? There is cannot answer that question, but the right hon. Lady not one Cabinet Minister in attendance on an issue of has made her point and no doubt Ministers will respond constitutional principle. There is no one arguing or to it when they come to the Dispatch Box. representing the Administration in a proper sense on a It is important to remember that the subject of the major Bill. As he well knows, I respect the Parliamentary Bill is not one that electrifies the public. We are all in Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member for Forest agreement about that. In the Dog and Duck they do not of Dean (Mr Harper), but the point is made. talk about it. In my village the pub is well known—the Percy Arms—and the topic does not come up a great Austin Mitchell: I accept that point from my hon. deal there. It is not something that people are talking Friend. It is a shame that even the Deputy Leader of the about or that is tripping off people’s tongues, but that House has gone out to check whether he supported four does not mean it is not important. It should be debated years when he was a constitutional affairs spokesman—or properly. Perhaps that is a partial response to the right was it three and a half? He is probably on his BlackBerry hon. Lady’s point. now, checking the figures. It is demonstrably wrong that I have been staggered by some of the comments by a Government should propose to the House a basic Opposition Members—the feigned outrage about a five-year alteration to the constitution, which has enormous term. Many of them were in the previous Government constitutional repercussions and which has not been over the last five years—[Interruption.] Sadly, the country discussed or properly assessed or pre-digested, force it knows what it was like as well. I want a four-year term though by a party majority, and not bother to attend because the experience of the last Government, and the debates to speak in favour of it. perhaps earlier Governments, shows that a five-year term is not necessarily in the best interests of the Jim Shannon: The hon. Gentleman has clearly outlined country. Governments generally expect to go to four the need for the democratic process to operate over a years, although there is no requirement for them to do three, four or five-year period, but does he agree that so. When they have run to five years, it is usually there is something wrong with such a Bill coming before because they have known that they were about to be 801 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 802

[Andrew Percy] that they are past it or clapped out, or not thinking of the good of the country because they are in their fifth or booted out by the electorate. We thus end up with a year sixth year. of incredibly poor decision making, and this Government have to deal with the consequences of the appalling Andrew Percy: The problem with the American Senator decisions taken in the last year of the Brown Government. term is that a third of the Senate is elected every two years, which means that they, too, are in a perpetual Alec Shelbrooke: On my hon. Friend’s point about state of elections, so that idea does not carry over Governments campaigning in the last year, one of the completely. things that I find most disturbing is the premise that in a The other experience of more regular elections is that five-year Parliament, Members take no notice of their there tends to be a greater propensity on the part of the constituents until the last year. That may explain why electorate to re-elect their incumbents. As I am now an the majority of the hon. Member for Great Grimsby incumbent, that is not necessarily something that I (Austin Mitchell) fell to just 714. would take issue with. I suspect that all hon. Members would be happy to see incumbents re-elected— Andrew Percy: I hope that politicians on all sides take [Interruption.] Well, yes, perhaps their own incumbency notice of their electorate at all times. The problem with re-elected. I was particularly intrigued by the comments going to a three-year term is that they may take less of the hon. Member for Great Grimsby that elections notice of their constituents and a great deal more notice offer the opportunity for politicians to recharge their of the newspapers. Given that Governments tend to be batteries. That is certainly not an experience I have ever most responsive to newspapers in the last year or six had in an election campaign. months before an election, the risk with a three-year term is that the Government would be beholden to the Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): newspapers and chasing headlines for the entire term Are not comparisons with the Congressional elections of office. inappropriate, because Congressmen, by and large, manage On the clash of elections, I have sympathy with those to insulate themselves from the electorate because they representing countries with devolved Assemblies. I would do not have independent boundary commissions but not want a Welsh Assembly election or a Scottish negotiate their constituency boundaries so that 85% of Parliament election on the same day as a general election, the seats are safe? Therefore, there is no real comparison; but it is a bit inconsistent for some on the Opposition when they go to face the electorate most of those Benches to suggest that a clash of elections is always Congressmen know they are going back. bad news, because they deliberately arranged for that by holding European and local government elections on Andrew Percy: I was involved in that in New Jersey in the same day, using two different voting systems. However, 2000. Such matters were determined on a state-by-state that is best avoided. I accept that the case for a general basis and depended very much on who was in control in election is a little different and that a general election that state. It is not quite the case that Congressmen should be held separately from the elections in the themselves are busy dividing up their own seats, but devolved regions. there are examples where that happens. I have no academic or study to quote on the four-year I conclude where I started. For me, a four-year term term; I just feel in my gut that it is the right length of feels more natural. As I said, I have no academic time for a Government. A four-year term is better support for this argument. To go to the electorate every because it would fit with local government elections and four years, which fits in properly with the elections in devolved assemblies. The Canadian Government changed Scotland and Wales, feels the right thing to do. I have a from five to four years a couple of years ago, and we great deal of sympathy with the amendments and I look have heard about the three-year terms that exist in forward to the comments of Opposition Members who, Australia and New Zealand. For me, four years would having enjoyed a five-year term, now seek to criticise be a more appropriate term for us to be in office. There the Government for seeking to continue them. is an acceptance that after being in power for five years, we tend to be a little too detached from the electorate, Chris Bryant: I congratulate the hon. Member for and consequently end up making bad decisions. However, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) on I cannot support the three-year term proposed by my advancing his amendment before I got to the Table Office near neighbour, next door but one, in Great Grimsby. when I would have tabled exactly the same amendment. That would throw us into a perpetual state of elections. His alacrity is in the interest of the whole House, and It is often said about US congressional elections that he is right to have tabled his amendments, as I hope to American Congressmen are in a perpetual state of lay out. election, which is why they have so many earmarks and I also congratulate the hon. Member for Aldridge- pork barrelling; they have no sooner got themselves to Brownhills (Mr Shepherd), who always speaks with an Washington DC than they have to run back to their independence of mind, which compliments both the electorates to try to gain election. House and his electors. He is right that this is about the entrenchment of Government. This measure is not proposed Mr Stewart Jackson: My hon. Friend refers to the because there has been some grand constitutional American political system and reiterates my earlier convention that has consulted the country about the point, but is it not true that at the other end of the scale appropriate length of the Parliament and has consulted US Senators, who have a six-year term, can take a academics or voters; it is simply here to entrench this broader view of both national and international issues? Government at least until May 2015. That is primarily Very few people say to an experienced American Senator why it exists. The hon. Member for Brigg and Goole 803 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 804

(Andrew Percy) said that he felt—I was not sure whether Parliament has had its day, and for the most part, by the he said in his waters or in his guts—that four years was time we get to four years in this country, certainly since better than five, and he is absolutely right. If one looks the second world war, most electorates have started to at the contributions made by most constitutional experts, say, “Youknow what, it’s time we had a general election.” as the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills asked us to do, all have said that four years is a better term than Alec Shelbrooke: First, will the hon. Gentleman confirm five. It is also right to say that the process that has been that there is no reason right now why this Parliament gone through for the Bill is inappropriate. will not go to May 2015—it is perhaps just wishful thinking on the Opposition Benches—and, secondly, 6.45 pm will he confirm whether his party supports fixed-term Parliaments? The Government have often said that in the first Session of a Parliament it is difficult to consult on Bills, because Parliament suddenly needs something to discuss. Chris Bryant: Yes, I was just about to come on to the My argument would be that that is not the time to bring point that I wholeheartedly agree with fixed-term forward constitutional Bills. There may be legislation Parliaments. It was wrong for Conservative, Labour on other matters which has been well adumbrated in and, for that matter in the past, Liberal, Whig and any manifestos and well discussed, but it is wholly inappropriate other kind of government to be able either to cut and to proceed with constitutional Bills without pre-legislative run, as the Deputy Leader of the House said in a sedentary scrutiny and some attempt to bind together all the comment earlier, or to choose to hang on until something political parties so that there is an agreement that this comes along. It is better to have a fixed term. not just a settlement for one Parliament or for five or six Interestingly, in 1950, Stafford Cripps—your predecessor, years, but one that will stand the test of time and last Ms Primarolo, by I do not know how many—argued several decades. forcefully to Clement Attlee that there should be a The hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) said general election before a Budget, because, if the election that this is a good idea because it will prevent the Prime were held after, it would look as if the Government were Minister from being able to choose the date of the trying to bribe the electorate, which would be wholly election. That is not true. The Bill makes it clear that the inappropriate. Prime Minister will always choose the actual date of a general election. It is perfectly possible for the Prime Alec Shelbrooke: Those were the days. Minister to make sure that there will be a general election, as laid out in clauses 1 and 2, because Prime Ministers Chris Bryant: Those were the days, eh? When high- can, if they wish, engineer a vote of no confidence, mindedness ruled. precisely as happened in Germany in 1982 under Chancellor The point is surely that it should not be within the Kohl, and in 2005 under Chancellor Schröder. There is power of the Government to determine the rules. It is no reason why a Prime Minister should not choose to like the situation in which everybody is running a 100 metre do that. race, but the starting gun is held by the person in charge, and sometimes he decides to shoot some of the runners Neil Carmichael: Surely those points ram home the instead of just starting the race. argument that five years is a good spell, because the hon. Gentleman has just admitted that from time to Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): I time we could break it and have an election earlier, but agree that constituents reach the point at which they the norm would still be five years. feel that the Government need to change, but does the hon. Gentleman agree that that is often in part because Chris Bryant: I will come on to why I think five years constituents are desperate for the Prime Minister of the is an inappropriate length of time. However, I am day to announce a general election? Having such certainty grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s comments. I will to a reasonable extent will therefore obviate the need for admit lots of things in this speech, but I will not admit constituents to wonder, “When is the election going to what he has just told me to admit. happen? When is the date? It can’t happen soon enough.” My argument is essentially that four years is a better That certainty will surely improve the situation. term for a fixed Parliament than five years. A five-year legislative provision for a maximum length of a Parliament Chris Bryant: Yes, of course. The hon. Lady is right in has served us not too badly and may well be okay, not the sense that constituents will not have to worry about least because it has meant in practical terms that Parliaments the date of the election. In fact, newspapers and the have tended to be more like four years, precisely as BBC will have to employ considerably fewer journalists, Asquith intended in 1911. But a fixed five-year term is because they will know the date of the general election overlong, and the main reason why we have that is and actually have to obsess about something else. However, because the Government want to continue until May the past 50 years have shown that, for the most part, 2015, which is an inappropriate use of constitutional once a Parliament has run for more than four years, reform. either the Parliament itself is so fed up with the Prime The hon. Member for Brigg and Goole said that he Minister that it chooses to change the Prime Minister was absolutely certain that there could not have been before holding a subsequent general election, or the any underhand skulduggery. I think he was using irony, country is becoming pretty fed up. if not sarcasm, and irony does not always translate perfectly into Hansard. His Dog and Duck test is right. Mr Cash: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that, The vast majority of voters are not obsessed with the really, this is not a fixed-term Parliament Bill at all? I length of a Parliament, but they do know when a mean not to criticise but to ask him a question, because, 805 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 806

[Mr Cash] Mr Stewart Jackson: The hon. Gentleman is being very generous in giving way, and he is making an contrary to what he says, the Government do not make engaging argument on a threadbare premise, if I may all the rules, the House of Commons does. If the House say so. Is not his argument essentially weakened by the decided to go for a confidence motion because it happened fact that there is a mechanism to deal with an atypical to be fed up with the Government in question, as it did event? I refer him to the controversy of 1979 over the over Maastricht, we could end up with the situation in Scotland Act 1978. That Parliament had been going which the Government lost control. Then there would for four years, and there was a vote of confidence on be a general election, and there would be no fixed term 28 March 1979. In other words, four-and-a-half years at all. into that Parliament, the issue was considered of such import to the affairs of state and to the House that a Chris Bryant: That is right, but that is a point in motion of no confidence was tabled. Such a motion can relation to clause 2 and at the moment we are dealing still be tabled under this Bill. Therefore the value judgment with clause 1. [Interruption.] At the moment we are between four and five years falls down. It would only talking about clause 1. In fact, the Bill is not really a really stand if the House had no capacity to dismiss fixed-term Parliaments Bill, because it does not determine itself and enter into a period prior to an election. how many days it should sit within those five years; it is a fixed-term elections Bill: it determines when elections Chris Bryant: I have to presume, as does the House, shall be. There are things that we need to change in that the Government will go through with all the various relation to Prorogation and so on, and we shall come on provisions that they have laid down in the Bill, and in to that at another point in the debate, but, for the most clause 2 there are two provisions for an early general part in this country, after four years and often before, election: the first determines what happens if there is a the mandate on which the Government were elected motion of no confidence, although it does not say what becomes pretty thin, and they start doing things— such a motion is; and the second relates to a motion for sometimes pretty unpopular things—that were not clearly an early general election, although it does not say outlined in their manifesto. The party or parties might whether such a motion would name the precise date of have made all sorts of commitments before they went that election. The Government presume that we will into government, but events come along or the Government need a two-thirds majority in the House to achieve an suddenly discover things that mean they have to break early poll, so on the Government’s argument—and, if those manifesto promises or commitments, and the the hon. Gentleman is going to support the Bill as it is, longer that a Government go on after four years, if they on his argument therefore—the presupposition is that do so, the more likely they are to undermine respect for there will not be many early general elections. Indeed, Parliament. the Bill, by trying to make it almost impossible to have an early general election, is much tougher than the vast Alec Shelbrooke: The hon. Gentleman, in his outrage, majority of other constitutions that I have looked at is almost saying that we are attempting to increase the throughout the world. That is another reason why four length of a Parliament, but we could go to May 2015 as years is better than five. In fact, the hon. Gentleman has things stand in statute today. That does not involve helped me to make part of my argument. extending the length of this Parliament. His other point is that Parliaments can run out of steam over five years, In relation to the intervention by the hon. Member but that has been the problem of previous Governments, for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke), I believe because they have governed in the short term, rather that in practice the Bill will lengthen the Parliaments of than for the long term and for the good of the country. this country. Since 1832 there have been 45 general elections: the average peacetime length has been three Chris Bryant: That is where there is a need for a years and eight months, as the hon. Member for balancing act, and that is why I do not support a Carmarthen East and Dinefwr said; even including the three-year Parliament, which my hon. Friend the Member lengthy wartime Parliaments of the first and second for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) advocates, or a world wars, the average has been only four years; and, five-year Parliament. I support a four-year Parliament, during the period when the maximum allowable duration which in most constitutions throughout the world seems under the Septennial Act was seven years, from 1832 to to be the period at which people have arrived. The 1911, the average was three years and 10 months. In Government would have at least three good Sessions in practice, by fixing elections as “every five years”, we will which they could advance their legislative cause, and if lengthen Parliaments and ensure less frequent general they wanted to do difficult things in the first and second elections. years but retain their ability to recover their position in time for an election after four years, they would be able Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): Will the hon. to do so. Gentleman give way? One of the other things that happens in government itself is that, after four years, a lot of people become Chris Bryant: Of course—it is good to have a new pretty tired. That was certainly true in the previous entrant into the debate. Parliament, in John Major’s Government and in Baroness Thatcher’s Government, and, because of that concatenation of tired people, many more ex-Ministers no longer have Stephen Williams: While we are discussing historical an investment in the future and do not intend to stand events, will the hon. Gentleman concede that some of at the next general election, so in practice attendance in those shortened Parliaments occurred because of the the House is much lower during the last year of a practice, which no longer exists, that when a monarch five-year Parliament than in the preceding years. died, Parliament was dissolved? 807 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 808

Chris Bryant: In fact, looking through the list, that as opposed to trying to massage his argument by bringing applies to remarkably few of them. It is absolutely true in Parliaments of a few months or a bit more. Funnily that there used to be the provision that there should be a enough—[Interruption.] I was about to finish. general election on the demise of the monarch. That has not pertained for quite some time, however, and it Chris Bryant: Funnily enough, of course I can advance certainly does not apply to any of the general elections an argument that is based on the average length of of the 20th century. Parliaments, because the practical experience of voters over the past two centuries is that Parliaments have not 7pm gone on for more than four years. Therefore, if we are going to fix it for the future that they will always go on Ms Bagshawe: It is false to say, as the hon. Gentleman for five years, the hon. Gentleman and those who wish and many of his hon. Friends have said, that the aim of to take the Bill forward without amendment intend this Bill is to entrench the power of the Government. If to extend Parliaments and provide for fewer general the Government wish to remain in office until 2015, elections—that is just a fact. they need do absolutely nothing, as they already have that within their power. Does not some of the weariness Only four Parliaments since 1945 have lasted roughly in Government to which he referred—a salient point—come five years. In three cases, a change of Prime Minister from endless speculation about the date of the election, had intervened in the meantime: the Parliaments from as in the previous Parliament, dating from 2007 when 8 October 1959 to 15 October 1964, when Harold the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath Macmillan handed over to Sir Alec Douglas-Home; (Mr Brown) ascended to the prime ministership? from 11 June 1987 to 9 April 1992, when Baroness Thatcher [Interruption.] I am sorry for mispronouncing Kirkcaldy. —she was not a baroness then, obviously—handed over If we know that there will be a fixed date for the general to John Major; and from 5 May 2005 to 6 May 2010, election, will not that remove the endless speculation when Tony Blair handed over to the former Prime that leads to weariness in Government? Minister. In addition, the longest Parliament of all in this period was John Major’s, which ran from 9 April Chris Bryant: Since the hon. Lady represents Corby, 1992 to 1 May 1997. It is difficult not to argue that in she should at least be able to pronounce the names of each of those cases the electorate had wanted an election the Scottish parliamentary constituencies, as most of before the election was eventually held. her constituents are Scottish. It is a great delight to see her joining us in the debate—we have missed her for Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): Does the hon. most of it thus far. Gentleman think, by that measure, that the European Parliament should not have five-year terms and that Ms Bagshawe indicated dissent. they should be reduced to four years? If so, why was it not done when Labour was in government? [Interruption.] Chris Bryant: I apologise if the hon. Lady has been there and I have not happened to notice her—she Chris Bryant: You are telling me to deal with one usually sits closer to the Front Benches. Parliament at a time, Ms Primarolo, and I rather agree. The hon. Lady’s point is wrong. The main reason for I have to say that I probably agree with the hon. large elements of the Bill, particularly in relation to Gentleman. However, that would require treaty change, when an earlier general election can be called, is the and I do not know whether we would then end up with desire to keep the coalition together. That is why we had a referendum, which would be very difficult for the the options for 55% majorities, as originally proposed, Government. and then 66%. It is the superglue element of the legislation, which is there wholly for cynical purposes to try to keep the coalition together. Otherwise, I suspect that there Mrs McGuire: I may have misheard my hon. Friend, might be a point at which the leader of the hon. Lady’s but I do not think he included the Parliament of ’74 to party might want to cut and run and get rid of her ’79, which also had a change of Prime Minister when unpopular lightning conductor of a Deputy Prime Minister. Harold Wilson handed over to James Callaghan. Even adding in that Parliament, only six out of 16 Parliaments Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Does my hon. Friend since the second world war ran for five years. agree that this is not a fixed-term Parliaments Bill that will entrench anything in the system, but rather a “fix Chris Bryant: Indeed. My right hon. Friend makes a for this Parliament” Bill that merely represents the very good point; she is right. I think that that Parliament expedient and the ephemeral embracing each other to ran for four years and seven months. cope with the unexpected? The second reason I think that five years is too long Chris Bryant: Yes, indeed. That would be the ultimate and four years would be better is that five years is longer, “Brokeback coalition”, I suppose. in practice, than applies virtually everywhere else, certainly within the European Union. Belgium, Bulgaria, the Neil Carmichael: I want to talk about the hon. Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Germany, Gentleman’s statistics. Looking back at the previous Greece, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, the Netherlands, century, we had two elections in 1910, elections in 1923, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Sweden 1924, 1951, 1959, 1964 and 1966, and two elections in and Spain all have, for their lower Houses, fixed or 1974. He cannot give us an argument based on an maximum Parliament lengths of four years. average. He needs to highlight the Parliaments that really mattered, most of which were Conservative ones, Alec Shelbrooke: What about France? 809 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 810

Chris Bryant: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke). sitting there in his rotund way—[Interruption] Iam As I am sure he is aware, there have been 18 general sorry, orotund way—and providing me with the suggestion elections to the Assemblée Nationale since 1945, which that I might refer to France. He is absolutely right, and I in large measure is because the President has the power will indeed come to France. He might also have mentioned, to suspend the Parliament early if he wants to, and has orotundly, that Italy, Austria, Malta, Cyprus and frequently done so since 1945. The only restriction is Luxembourg have provisions for five years. It is worth that he cannot do that if he has already done so in the pointing out that in Italy there have been 17 elections past year. In effect, therefore, there is not a fixed five-year for its Camera dei Deputati since 1945, and only twice term but a maximum five-year term, and elections have in that time has the Parliament run for the full five years. been held in October, November, March and June. In fact, the number of full five-year terms has been low. Mr Cash: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Again, that makes my point that a fixed five-year term for the British Parliament will mean that we have the Chris Bryant: Of course. The hon. Gentleman is very longest Parliaments and the least frequent general elections peripatetic this evening. of any country in the European Union. As the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Mr Cash: I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman Percy) said, it is not just the situation in the European might take on board the fact that the systems of all the Union that should matter. Five years is longer than in other countries in Europe that he has rightly cited are any of the other Westminster democracies as well. As based on written constitutions. Does he accept that the he and others have said, New Zealand and Australia virtue of the British system is its flexibility? Moreover, have three-year terms. They are not actually fixed terms there is the example of 10 May 1940—the day I was in either case, they are maximum three-year terms, and born, as it turned out—when Chamberlain was effectively I know that plenty of people there would like to be able dispatched because he had completely failed and Winston to change to a four-year term because they think that Churchill took over. That was on the very day that three years is too short a time. In practice, three years Hitler invaded the lowlands. In other words, we make ends up being a fixed term, because who would want to our decisions based on whether we in this House, on have elections more frequently than that? He is also behalf of the people, decide that the Government have right about Canada, where there is a four-year term. had their day. However, there are some exceptions. I thought that Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman is, in effect, making the hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell would leap an argument against the whole of the Bill, because he is up and ask, “What about India?” The Lok Sabha, basically saying that we should not have fixed-term whose Members are elected in a similar way to ours in Parliaments. [Interruption.] I am sorry—he is chuntering the sense that there are single-member constituencies, is so I cannot quite hear what he is saying. However, I elected for a maximum of five years. However, leaving disagree with him. My argument is that if we are going aside the suspension of elections during the state of to have fixed-term Parliaments, they should not be of emergency from 1975 to 1977, there have been Parliaments five years but of four years, partly because otherwise we of one, two, three or four years on several occasions will end up having the longest-running Parliaments in since 1952. In practice, because it is quite easy to hold the European Union. early general elections in India, it does not feel as though there is a fixed term of five years. Again, we will In Italy, very few Parliaments have gone on for five be going longer than most. years because the President has the power to suspend the Parliament early. In Austria, there have been even In South Africa, the National Assembly has supposedly more general elections—20—although that country has been elected for five years ever since independence, but had a fixed five-year term since the war. Malta has had every term between 1966 and 1989 lasted four years or 16 elections since the war, and only since 1998 has it less—some might say “fewer”, but it depends on how stuck to the five-year period. Cyprus has had regular one looks at it. changes to its constitution for a whole series of different reasons, not least in relation to Turkey. Only Luxembourg Alec Shelbrooke: I say again to the hon. Gentleman has a fixed five-year term that it has stuck to since 1974. that this Parliament will still have the power to have an In all these cases—I thought that this is the point that election before the end of the fixed term. the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) was going to make—the elections are held on the basis of a system of proportional representation, where there is an expectation Chris Bryant: Unless the hon. Gentleman is going to that Parliaments might fall rather more frequently because support us on amendments to clause 2—I look forward elections do not tend to bring in one party with an to his arguments, because we will have to ensure that he absolute majority of seats in the relevant House. is consistent—he must accept that the Bill provides tough measures to ensure that the calling of an early Andrew Percy: As interesting as the examples from general election will be pretty difficult, if not virtually Europe are, does the hon. Gentleman not agree that the impossible, given the parliamentary system. countries that share our monarch and have exactly the To continue with Parliaments in the Westminster-style same problems with prerogative powers and so on provide democracies, Papua New Guinea has consistently had a better example of where we should be heading? fixed-term elections every five years since 1972, but it has more than 20 political parties, and only one party in Chris Bryant: I will come on to them, and indeed they the Papua New Guinean Parliament has more than add to my argument, but I just wish to finish with eight members out of the 109. Again, that is a very France, for the further satisfaction and delight of the different situation. 811 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 812

I therefore point out to Members that since the 1970s and not counted. People were disfranchised because the only two places that have stuck to five year Parliaments, there were two elections of different sorts on the same which are what the Bill is intended to give us on a day. This matter is not ethereal, it is about practical permanent basis, are Papua New Guinea and Luxembourg. politics and the enfranchisement of people in Scotland, I just do not think that they provide an appropriate Wales and Northern Ireland. model. Even in the Dáil, which obviously has a five-year term and has done since 1923, the average term has Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. been three years and three months. I argue that the When that point was made earlier in the debate some Government are trying to extend the practical length of people said it was all about how the ballot papers were Parliaments, which is inappropriate. presented, and undoubtedly that was part of the problem. The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr However, the point is that in Wales, an Assembly election referred to Scottish, Northern Irish and Welsh elections. feels like a general election. It will feel like a general His amendment 11 refers to the elections in 2015. I do election next May. Elections to the Scottish Parliament not know whether the Government want to have a lot of feel like a general election in Scotland, and I am sure the elections on the same day, or whether they want to try situation is somewhat similar in Northern Ireland. If to separate elections out consistently. In the USA, as they coincide with the UK elections every 20 years, it several hon. Members have said, there is a deliberate will be a bit of a muddle and voters will be confused. constitutional construction to ensure that a lot of elections This is not about our convenience, it is about the happen at the same time on the same day, on a two-yearly convenience of voters and the clarity of the mandate cycle. That is not the model that we have tended to that is provided. Without a clear mandate, we end up adopt in the UK, although we have ended up with local without good politics and with people distrusting the elections, and now the Scottish, Welsh and Northern political system. Irish elections, happening on the first Thursday in May. I say in passing that another element of the Bill is that the Government intend to stick to a short election 7.15 pm campaign, both in any early general election that might The hon. Gentleman referred to the fact that different be held and in the specific 2015 election. That will not constituencies and different electoral systems will be be the same campaign as for the local elections or for used on the same day, and he was absolutely right. If the Welsh or Scottish elections. That will provide another the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies level of uncertainty, particularly for treasurers of local Bill goes through the House of Lords unchanged, we election campaigns. They may be the treasurer for their will not have parliamentary constituencies here that local constituency association or their local party, and match the Welsh Assembly constituencies. They already they are already given a pretty tough job to do with do not match in Scotland, and on top of that there are stringent legal provisions. Often they are nervous about regional elections to provide the top-up seats in Wales what that might mean for them and whether they will and Scotland. We will end up with a dog’s breakfast. It end up in prison. We should not make the situation even will be difficult for voters to understand precisely whom more complicated by firing the starting gun for expenses they are voting for, difficult to conduct the counts for for the various elections on different days. In addition the different elections and difficult for broadcasters to to that, by choosing May we will always hit the problem know how to ensure that they give equal balance to the of Easter. In 2015, polling day will be on 7 May and, various people standing in elections. because it is a relatively early Easter, Dissolution will be on Monday 13 April. In 2020, unless we change the Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD) rose— legislation, polling day will be on 7 May, which will mean that Dissolution will be on Maundy Thursday Chris Bryant: It is great to have another new entrant 9 April, as both 10 and 13 April will not be working days. to the debate. Maundy Thursday used to be a day on which one did Jo Swinson: I thank the hon. Gentleman. Does he not have elections. It used to be provided as a bank accept that the situation he describes is not solely a holiday, but legislation in 1995 removed it from the list. result of this Bill, and that it was bound to happen None the less, it would be inappropriate to dissolve anyway in 2015, when it is likely the general election Parliament on Maundy Thursday in 2020. The bigger would have been? As he says, there are already different point is that we will constantly have the problem with boundaries in Scotland. It is right that we find some the start date of the electoral campaign because Easter way of enabling the devolved legislatures to move their moves. elections if they wish, but the situation is not just the result of this Bill. Ms Bagshawe: Although I respect the hon. Gentleman’s ecclesiastical background, I cannot resist asking him Chris Bryant: No, no, no, the hon. Lady is wrong. She why it would be a problem for the Dissolution of has a much easier way to solve all this—she can vote Parliament to take place on a Maundy Thursday. It with us tonight. She only has to do so twice, first to seems quite a bizarre point to make. Will he please ensure that the 2015 election is brought forward to 2014 elucidate? and then to ensure that elections are every four years, not every five. She has to do both, she cannot just do one, because otherwise we would still end up with Chris Bryant: Both days provide a specific role for the elections happening at the same time every 20 years. monarch. The point that I am trying to make is that because Easter moves, the number of working days’ Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): I wonder whether measures that is allowed for in the Bill at the moment we can get down to the brass tacks of this. In 2007, makes it more difficult to predetermine exactly how some 140,000 ballots in Scotland were void, nullified many days there will be. For the most part, it is inappropriate 813 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 814

[Chris Bryant] Parliament. The Liberal Democrats have long argued for fixed-term Parliaments, but fixed at four years and to have a general election across the passage of Easter; not five. Their policy paper 83 “For the People By the it makes it more difficult. I do not want to lay that down People”—[Interruption.] I will not repeat what my in legislation. I merely make the point. right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) The main point, however, is that it has always been has just said. The policy paper, which was introduced to the ambition of freedom that there should be frequent the autumn conference in 2007, set out the commitment elections. There is a significant difference between having to a written constitution, which included fixed parliamentary a fixed term and a maximum term for a Parliament. The terms of four years. It stated: Meeting of Parliament Act 1694—it used to be known “Liberal Democrats have long argued that parliaments should as the Triennial Act 1694—stated: last for a fixed term of four years. In a reformed political system coalition government might be the norm and stability can only be “Whereas, by the ancient laws and statutes of this kingdom, encouraged by a system which does not allow for snap elections frequent parliaments ought to be held; and whereas frequent and when political relationships suffer temporary disruption.” new parliaments tend very much to the happy union and good agreement of the king and people”. The best advocate of such legislation was the hon. It then went on to make provision for three-year Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath). Indeed, parliaments, which is what, I think, my hon. Friend the he brought a Bill before Parliament. I have seen lots of Member for Great Grimsby is advocating. photographs of him advocating a four-year fixed Parliament. As he is an honourable man who believes in I fear that the argument of the Government—in consistency, I know that he will support us tonight in particular the argument of the Deputy Prime Minister— favour of a four-year rather than a five-year term. that plenty of time is needed to do unpopular things is rather closer to the Septennial Act 1715. That said: Welcome to the Chair, Miss Begg. It is a delight to see you for the first time in the Chair in the full Chamber of “And whereas it has been found by experience that the said clause”—- the House. Let me repeat, there is no mandate for this provision. This provision is not the one that was in the namely the one that provided for three-year Parliaments— Liberal Democrats’ manifesto. It is not the provision “hath proved very grievous and burthensome, by occasioning that was in the Conservative party’s manifesto, because much greater and more continued expences in order to elections the Conservative party said that it would introduce of members to serve in Parliament, and more violent and lasting legislation to provide that if a party in Government heats and animosities among the subjects of this realm, than were changed its leader, and therefore the Prime Minister, ever known before the said clause was enacted; and the said provision, if it should continue, may probably at this juncture, there would be a general election within six months. when a restless and popish faction are designing and endeavouring That provision has completely disappeared, so there is to renew the rebellion within this kingdom, and an invasion from no mandate for the precise nature of this Bill. abroad, be destructive to the peace and security of the government.” I am sure that the Deputy Leader of the House and In other words, as in 1715, the Government want to be the Minister have persuaded themselves of their argument. able to remain longer in power because they think that They have scrunched up their eyes and desperately it is better for the country. On the whole, we should persuaded themselves that this Bill does not try to presume that shorter Parliaments are better. It is no extend the length of Parliaments. They have screwed wonder that the Chartists campaigned for annual elections. themselves to the sticking point, and they are determined The petition that was presented to this House on 2 May to get it through. The honest truth, however, is that this 1842 by Thomas Slingsby Duncombe, the MP for Finsbury, is a wrong measure. It is anti-democratic. It will mean argued for it and for the payment of MPs. The Parliament that general elections happen less frequently. This House Act 1911, to which several hon. Members referred, should support the amendments that have been tabled came about in response to the battle over the powers of by the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr the House of Lords and the people’s Budget in 1910. and all the other amendments that call for four-year Prime Minister Herbert Asquith then said that the Parliaments rather than five-year Parliaments and the change would probably amount in practice to an actual next general election in May 2014 and not 2015. working term of four years. In 1992, the Labour manifesto said: Mrs Laing: I, too, welcome you to the Chair, Miss Begg. “This general election was called only after months of on-again, In the unavoidable absence of the hon. Member for off-again dithering which damaged our economy and weakened Nottingham North (Mr Allen), I should like to put our democracy. No government with a majority should be allowed before the House amendment 32, which has been tabled to put the interests of party above country as the Conservatives have done. Although an early election will sometimes be necessary, by members of the Political and Constitutional Reform we will introduce as a general rule a fixed parliamentary term.” Committee, of which the hon. Gentleman is chairman. I and other hon. Members here present are also members. In 2002, Tony Wright, the former Member for Cannock Not all members of the Select Committee have put their Chase—he was previously the Chairman of the Public names to this amendment, and I do not wish to press it Administration Committee—brought in a ten-minute to a Division. None the less, I want to put it before the rule Bill, calling for fixed-term Parliaments. He pointedly House on behalf of the Select Committee because it said that the fixed term had to be four years rather than was part of our process of pre-legislative scrutiny of five years. this Bill. In the Select Committee’s words, the House In 2007, another ten-minute rule Bill was brought should consider whether forward in the name of David Howarth, a very fine man “a Parliament following an early general election should last for who was then the Liberal Democrat Member for only as long as the remainder of the term of the previous Cambridge. He argued very forcefully, on behalf of the Parliament, and whether such a provision would make a super- Liberal Democrats, that there should be a fixed-term majority for a dissolution unnecessary?” 815 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 816

I am sorry to be speaking about this matter after the “a Government could be returned following an early general shadow Minister because he may have wished to say election with a large majority, in which case it would make little something about the Select Committee’s deliberations. sense to ask the voters to return to the polls in as little as a few months.” Three eminent academics gave evidence to the Select Committee. Professor Robert Blackburn of King’s college, That is a perfectly good point and I cannot argue with London, wrote that the amendment would help to it. They also argue: “ensure a governing majority does not abuse its ability to push “The people expect that when they go to the polls, they are through an early election resolution for no good reason other being asked to elect a Government which will last for a full term than being a favourable time to itself to go to the polls”. with a full programme.” Professor Robert Hazell of the constitution unit at If the Bill passes, the people will indeed expect that. University College London, wrote that the proposal Those points answer some of the points that the Select would provide Committee made in its pre-legislative scrutiny, but not all. “a strong disincentive to a government inclined to call an early election” As I said, not all members of the Select Committee support amendment 32, and I do not wish to press it to as well as a Division. I am speaking to it on behalf of the Select “a disincentive to opposition parties tempted to force a mid term dissolution”. Committee simply so that this Committee has an opportunity to consider the balance of the arguments. I The proposal is also supported by Professor Hazell’s am sure that the Minister will give very good reasons colleague, Professor Dawn Oliver, for similar reasons. why he does not wish to accept the amendment, but I 7.30 pm hope he will reassure us that the Government have There are at least three further arguments in support considered the points made—perfectly properly—by of amendment 32. First, it would provide a genuine the Select Committee. fixed term, making the cycle of ordinary general elections predictable long into the future, or at least until the law Chris Bryant: The hon. Lady referred to the evidence is changed. Secondly, it would be in keeping with the given by Professor Hazell, so I am sure that she would statutory arrangements for elections to the Scottish also want to point out that he said that fixed terms Parliament, the National Assembly for Wales and the should be for four and not five years. Does she remember Northern Ireland Assembly. Thirdly, it would prevent 16 May 2008? She intervened on David Howarth in the the cycle of parliamentary constituency boundary reviews Chamber to attack the idea of a fixed-term Parliament. —as proposed by the Government in the Parliamentary She said: Voting System and Constituencies Bill—from decoupling “Are the Liberal Democrats in favour of this Bill because for from regular general elections. That decoupling would nearly a century they have not had an incumbent Prime Minister, occur under the Government’s proposals if an early and have no prospect of having one for the next century?”—[Official general election were held. Will the Minister consider Report, 16 May 2008; Vol. 475, c. 1704.] that in respect of the provisions of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill as well as in Mrs Laing: I am glad the hon. Gentleman raises that respect of the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill? and grateful to him. I very well remember 16 May 2008 Chris Bryant: The hon. Lady makes an extremely —I have the Hansard here in my hand—and I am important point. It will be difficult for people to know delighted that when I spoke from the Dispatch Box from on what basis elections are held if we do not accept which he just spoke, I did not encourage my party to amendment 32 or an amendment to the Parliamentary vote against provisions for a fixed-term Parliament Bill. Voting System and Constituencies Bill to ensure that I doubted the motives of the Liberal Democrats at that boundary commissions report 18 months or so before point. the date of an election. Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): You should still doubt Mrs Laing: Indeed. The hon. Gentleman and I disagree their motives! profusely on the boundary commission issues that are currently being debated in Parliament, but we agree that it is essential that regular boundary reviews coincide Mrs Laing: I am consistent on that point as in all with parliamentary terms. I expect that the Minister other aspects of my political philosophy. In fact, the will also agree with that. debate on 16 May 2008 was a full debate on this issue, and I urge hon. Members to consider it. As I have often said when speaking to amendments that have arisen from the pre-legislative scrutiny undertaken I have spoken to amendment 32 on behalf of the by the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, Political and Constitutional Reform Committee. Having amendment 32 is genuinely meant to be helpful to performed my duty in that respect, I am now free, and Ministers, and to forewarn them. If there are early I should like to speak to amendment 11 on my own elections, boundary commission reviews will be out of behalf, and not on behalf of that Committee or anyone step. Having said that, this is a purely practical matter. I else. There are two issues to consider when it comes to am sure that the Minister, once he has given it about the length of Parliaments: first, the constitutional principle; two or three minutes’ thought, will have a perfectly and secondly, the prevailing political situation. Let us good response. It is right that this Committee considers be honest: that is the crux of the matter. such points, because that is the purpose and meaning of On the constitutional principle, there is nothing strange, pre-legislative scrutiny. new or innovative about a five-year parliamentary term. The Government put their argument against the The hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan amendment in their response to the Select Committee’s Reynolds) asked from where the Government have plucked report. They say that the idea of five-year terms. The fact is that the law 817 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 818

[Mrs Laing] Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): Does the hon. Lady accept, therefore, that the only permits five-year Parliaments, as it has for the past other Parliament in the United Kingdom has a four-year 99 years. The idea has not been plucked from nowhere—it term, and that is the Scottish Parliament, for which, I is quite normal. regret, she did not vote in 1997?

Jonathan Reynolds: Does the hon. Lady not recognise Mrs Laing: No I did not, but I would argue with the that the normal practice has been four-year terms? In hon. Gentleman that, if he seeks consistency, which fact, the average length is slightly less than four years. If would not be unreasonable, the Scottish Parliament we are to extend that period, we should at the very least should change to five years. There is no problem with be given an argument in favour of it, but such an that. argument has not so far been forthcoming. The point made by the hon. Member for Carmarthen Mrs Laing: No. With respect, the hon. Gentleman is East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) about comparisons completely wrong. The Bill is not about extending with local authorities is interesting but irrelevant, because Parliament. Four year Parliaments are not normal. Let we are talking about Parliament, the work of which has us be realistic and honest about that, in political terms. a long time lag. We have had four-year Parliaments because they have suited Prime Ministers who believed that they had a Chris Bryant: Why? better chance of securing a majority in the country after four years than if they went on for another year. The Mrs Laing: Because it takes a long time to turn the current system gives enormous power to Prime Ministers, economy round. We are looking now at the horrific and quite rightly so. There must be some power of mess that the last Government, in the last five-year incumbency, which is what the power to such decisions Parliament, left behind. is. There is no norm of four-year Parliaments, and averages are irrelevant—they are just arithmetic. Chris Bryant indicated dissent. Chris Bryant: The hon. Lady is talking about what is normal. I venture to say that it has not been normal in Mrs Laing: The hon. Gentleman can wave it away, the British system, since 1832, to have a five-year Parliament. but he cannot change the fact that our country’s economic There have been a few, but there have been very few. It situation is dire, and that is because of what his Government has been more normal to have four-year Parliaments. did in their last five-year Parliament. I wish it had not lasted five years, but that is another point—[HON.MEMBERS: Mrs Laing: I have just explained why. I would add “Ah!] Yes, but when I say that, I say it purely out of that 1832 is not relevant, but 1911 is. We are looking at party political prejudice, and other people in the Chamber the last 100 years, during which time there have been ought to admit the same when they are looking for a several five-year Parliaments. general election to be sooner, rather than later. It is not constitutional principle, but party political prejudice. Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): I am sure that my hon. Friend is very familiar with these Nic Dakin: Is it not important that we focus on the figures, but 10 of the past 17 Parliaments lasted longer people we serve, rather than on structures, time periods than four years, and six of those 10 lasted longer than and so on, and is it not important that we renew our four and a half years. That probably supports her mandate regularly? If the norm is for the renewal of a argument that many Parliaments run for much longer mandate after four years for local elections, parliamentary than four years. elections in Scotland and Assembly elections in Wales and Northern Ireland, does it not make sense to recognise Mrs Laing: I thank my hon. Friend very much for that renewal on a four-year basis is reasonable, especially those statistics. He is absolutely correct, and talking given that neither of the Government parties took this about averages is neither here nor there. We should be to the British people in the general election? We have to looking at the number of Parliaments that have run for recognise the norm, by which I mean the average. five years, almost five years or very much less. We cannot count the war years, and it is irrelevant to count unusual times. There is no norm of four-year Parliaments. Mrs Laing: I have answered the point about local The Bill does not extend anything; it merely enshrines authorities. We are not a local authority; we are the the current situation. Parliament of the United Kingdom. Making that comparison completely negates the hon. Gentleman’s Jonathan Edwards: On UK norms, is it not true that argument. However, he said one thing that was correct: where institutions are fixed, whether in Wales, Scotland, yes, we should be mindful of those whom we serve. We or Northern Ireland, or in local authorities and town, serve them better by producing stable Government, and community and parish councils, the norm is four years? that is what the Bill will help to do. The fact is that no The norm in the UK is four years, and that is the whole Parliament can bind its successor. point of the amendment. 7.45 pm Mrs Laing: The norm for district, county and parish councils is four years, but they are not Parliament. We Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): Does not much of are talking about Parliament, the duties undertaken by local government elect not every four years, but by which are different and have a different time span from thirds every year, so the argument made by Opposition those undertaken by local authorities. Members is completely erroneous? 819 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 820

Mrs Laing: I am glad that I gave way to my hon. However, against her argument, I cannot see why it is a Friend, because he is absolutely correct. The argument good constitutional principle—one that should be set in is totally erroneous. If Opposition Members wish to legislation—that Parliaments should sit for five-year turn this Parliament into the equivalent of a district terms. council, I for one will oppose them all the way. It is an irrelevant argument. The Bill is a statement of intent and of good management by the Prime Minister, who Mrs Laing: I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman could, as other Members have said, say nothing now, cannot see that, but I have said that I can see it. It is a bring forward no legislation, but intend in his own mind perfectly proper constitutional principle that a Parliament to call the next general election in May 2015, and under should sit for five years. Now I am putting the practical the current system that would be entirely up to him. side of the argument, which is that in the political and economic situation in which we find ourselves—as a I have dealt now with the constitutional principle. result of the mismanagement of our country’s economy There is no such principle preventing a fixed-term and social policy for 13 years by a bad, Labour Government, Parliament of five years, and there is no principle that who did the people of the United Kingdom no favours says that a Parliament of the United Kingdom should whatever—it will take more than just two or three years be anything other than five years—no principle, no to put this country back on its feet. Therefore, we precedent. On the second part of my consideration—the should have a five-year term. It is what the people of reflection of the current political situation—I noticed our country need; it is what we as parliamentarians the other day that I have an old fridge magnet, purchased have a duty, in the name of stability, to give the people. some time ago in that illustrious place, the House of Commons souvenir shop. It has on it a pithy saying from that brilliant political thinker, Spike Milligan— Mrs McGuire: Thank you for calling me, Miss Begg. It is a great pleasure to see you in your place today. Austin Mitchell: Five years or bust. I congratulate the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) on her dynamic speech. She has always Mrs Laing: It does not say that. It says: “One day the been a participant in constitutional debates. We have often Don’t knows will get in, and then where will we be?” not seen eye to eye, and, frankly, I am not sure that we [HON.MEMBERS: “They did.”] Precisely my point! I used are going to change that this evening. However, she to laugh at that fridge magnet and think that Spike spoke with her usual vigour, vim and—in her way—logic. Milligan was funny, but now I am sorry to say his For those who do not know, she and I have always had prophecy was correct. Where would we be, if the electorate an issue with some Members of this House who could decided, “Don’t know”? We would be where we are never pronounce her name properly—that is, as we now. We need a coalition, because that is what the pronounce it in Scotland. I know that I am not allowed electorate, in Spike Milligan fashion, decided. We have to mention names, but I am sure that she knows what I to have a coalition because it is necessary for stability, am talking about. [HON.MEMBERS: “Go on!”] In Scotland, and that stability is necessary to resolve the economic we would pronounce the hon. Lady’s name “Lang”. I situation and put this country back on its feet after will leave hon. Members to work out the difference, 13 years of misrule by Labour Governments. because, without usurping the Chair, Miss Begg, we would normally—[Interruption.] No, sorry, we would On Second Reading, the hon. Member for Garston say “Layng”, not “Lang”. After 13 years down here, and Halewood (Maria Eagle), speaking from the Dispatch I have almost gone native. Box for the Opposition, was not cynical—the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) said today that I would like first to comment on one or two other parts of the Bill are cynical—but practical when she previous speeches in this debate. There have been some said: powerful contributions to this debate. On the principle “The long title of this Bill should be ‘A Bill to ensure that the of the four-year term, although I did not agree with the inherent contradictions in the coalition Government are suppressed analysis on three years put forward by my hon. Friend for a full five years; to make sure that neither party can double the Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell), cross the other; and for connected purposes.’”—[Official Report, he and the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills 13 September 2010; Vol. 515, c. 697.] (Mr Shepherd) made telling statements about re-energising Well, she was absolutely right: that is not cynical; it is our democracy at regular intervals. Frankly, it is arrogant practical. We need to have stability. We therefore need of us in this House to assume that we should not go out to have a stable coalition, and if having fixed-term there and re-energise our democracy at reasonable times. Parliaments is part of that, we need to have fixed-term I am not convinced that five years is the right period to Parliaments. The Government are right to state that re-energise our democracy. Indeed, the dynamic of the such a Parliament should last for five years, because in British political infrastructure is built around four-year order to bring about the stability that this country terms. The hon. Member for Epping Forest assumed needs, it needs to have the same Government continuing that somehow Parliament was in a different position with the same coherent, stable economic and social from the other elements of our democratic infrastructure, principles in the long term, rather than for short-term but I do not think that we are, in that they are underpinned political expediency. That is why five years is so important. by the same principle that if someone is elected by the people, then every so often, after a reasonable interlude, Chris Bryant: I think I must have wandered over to they should have to regain that mandate. the Government Benches and left my notes for my As an aside, the hon. Member for Epping Forest is a speech there, because the hon. Lady seems to be reading fantastic successor to Sir Patrick Cormack—I hope that them out. I can see why it might be practical to say that she will take that as a compliment—in that she says the the next general election should be on 7 May 2015. word “Parliament” with such gusto and conviction. 821 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 822

[Mrs McGuire] 1997 and hearing then Opposition Members—some of whom are now members of the Government—say that Her articulation—I think that is the word—of the the fifth year of any Parliament is often the one in word “Parliament” brought back fond memories of which the Government are tired and running out of Sir Patrick. steam. You might remember hearing similar comments, There is a dynamic in the British parliamentary system. Miss Begg. I do not think that creating fixed Parliaments There is also a logic to the four-year term, which has of five years will change that dynamic of politics. Four been built up over many years, yet the one thing that has years is the time it takes a Government to put a programme been missing from the Government’s case in proposing in place and to deal with the major issues that it came to five years is logic. There is absolutely no logic to their power to deal with. case, although the hon. Lady’s honesty perhaps got us closer than anybody else on the Government Benches 8pm was prepared to admit. This is not about logic or principle; this is about sheer political expediency. The Another element, which I find distasteful, is that this current Government tell us that their activities in managing Government are seeking to extend their own life. I the economy will deal with the deficit in four years, so would have more respect for this legislation if it extended why are they afraid to go back to the electorate in four the life of the next Parliament. At no time did either of years? Why do they need to extend this Parliament for the political parties that now form the Government say an extra year? Some elements of the coalition Government that they would extend the life of this Government by are in a lifeboat, waiting for the general election of an extra year. 2015—a political equivalent of the Carpathia—to come by and lift them out of the seas in which they find Ms Bagshawe: Opposition Members return again themselves. That is the only reason for proposing a and again to the same inexplicable argument. Will the five-year term. right hon. Lady explain how the Government are seeking to extend the life of this Parliament when my right hon. It is preposterous to introduce a five-year element Friend the Prime Minister may call an election on the into a well established cycle of elections every four very last day of the five years should he choose to do so years. It is almost like the Olympics: if we can divide the without introducing any legislation whatever? year by two, then it should be an election year. Every other democracy that we have highlighted today has Mrs McGuire: There is a distinct difference between gone down the road of four years—in the case of the the flexibility in the constitution now, and a law that American Senate, the division is by two. We have a well says that this Parliament cannot, without jumping over established political infrastructure in this country. various hurdles and achieving various percentages, call a general election before the end of that statutory Graham Stringer: My right hon. Friend is making a period. That is the fundamental divide in the Committee. powerful case for shorter periods between general elections, I return to the practical point of whether we should but when it comes to a coalition, is there not an even have general elections at the same time as other elements stronger democratic argument for shorter periods? By of our democratic society have their elections. The necessity, the policies of a coalition will have been integrity of other elements of our democratic infrastructure opaque to the electorate at the last general election. should be protected. Frankly, the Westminster attitude Therefore, a coalition Government should go back to that everyone else should change is not compelling, and the people more often. is insulting to the tens of thousands of people who are involved in all sorts of political activity at local government Mrs McGuire: I thoroughly agree with my hon. Friend. level, and indeed at Assembly and parliamentary level. We now have a different kind of Government. Had the This Parliament established the Assemblies and devolved numbers been slightly different, we might have been in a Parliament. We should keep faith with them and recognise similar position—that is, in a coalition. However, I that they have the right to pursue their own democratic cannot imagine that one of our first Bills would have mandate without our overlaying our election by statute been to extend the life of that Parliament and put a and no longer as a matter of flexibility or choice. statutory limit—not a flexible limit—on the length of our term, although some of my colleagues have asked Holding those elections on the same day will cause why we did not think of the idea first, when we had a major difficulties, even if that occurs every so many majority of 164 in 1997. Hindsight is a great thing. years. We are discussing different systems for not just two of those elements, but for three or four. We could As for the length of Parliaments, I want to offer my have the alternative vote system if in the referendum, hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda an apology, whenever it is held, the people accept it for this Parliament. because he was right when he said that there were three We have first past the post for the Scottish Parliament Parliaments that ran in excess of five years. There were and the Welsh Assembly, and over and above that, as three others—I have just added up the years; I did not my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda said, a third have the benefit of the chart—that effectively ran for and yet another system is the regional list vote. The five years. However, I hope that he will accept that, issue is not that the people of the various countries of taken together, it has been unusual to go beyond four the United Kingdom may be unable to discern the years. different political arguments that might be made; complexity There has been a strong element of honesty—certainly will be added to our democracy when we want to from this side of the Committee—about what happens encourage more people to be involved in democracy. We in the fifth year of a Government. We have to be are in danger of putting them off by saying, “This is realistic about the dynamism and energy of a Government how you must vote in this election, this is the way on in their fifth year. I remember coming into the House in that election, and this is the way on the second vote.” 823 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 824

On a practical point, we may pass legislation in the that also sought to change our parliamentary system. House, but it has to be implemented. Let us imagine the There are perhaps only two reasons why the Government difficulty that returning officers will face in the first and did not amalgamate them in a single Bill. First, this is a subsequent elections when they conflict with those elements back-of-a-fag-packet rushed job that they have pulled of our electoral system. We are asking returning officers together, but they could not get their civil servants to and all the staff who make sure that our democracy work fast enough for the Deputy Prime Minister. I note works to do almost the impossible. Although there have that he is not here tonight, and I can only assume that been debates on why 140,000 ballot papers were spoiled after his 70-minute contribution to our eight hours of at the last Scottish Parliament elections, it is fair to say debate on the other Bill he is exhausted. I am sure that that the response from returning officers and their staff Opposition Members wish him all the best in his recovery was that holding different elections on the same day from that exhaustion. The second reason could be that with complex voting systems did not help matters, the Minister so enjoys spending time on Bills that he has albeit that there were issues with the ballot paper. been bouncing around all week in eager anticipation of What worries me particularly about the how the listening to me and my hon. Friend the Member for legislation has been introduced is that when challenged Rhondda giving him an interesting lecture on constitutional the Deputy Prime Minister’s answer was that the date of history. Without further ado, I will indulge not that the other elections should be changed. That is arrogant, fetish, but that fantasy. and underpins the content of the Bill and the speed I was lucky enough to go on the visit by the all-party with which it is being steamrollered through the House British-American parliamentary group to the United States and the other place. The hon. Member for Aldridge- some two months ago, and spent a lot of time studying Brownhills argued powerfully about constitutional change, the US constitution, and especially its constitutional and he will recognise that if such change has to happen, convention, which is particularly apt given the comments it should do so with consensus throughout the House. by the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr Shepherd) Constitutional change should happen because all political about interesting parallels between our parliamentary parties recognise the need for it. What we have here is a system and that of our colonial cousins across the water. unilateral decision by a coalition Government who did I have to confess to being something of an anorak in not highlight five-year terms in their manifestos. these matters. In fact, I have been described as the Leonard to my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda’s Mr Sanders: We did. Sheldon when it comes to the constitutional process. I should like to recommend to the Committee an Mrs McGuire: I may be wrong, but I think that was excellent book by Professor Robert Beeman called “Plain, four years, not five years. Honest Men: the making of the American constitution”, which I would be happy to lend to the Minister and to Mr Sanders: Four years, fixed term. the Deputy Leader of the House if they would like to study it. They might be interested to know that when Mrs McGuire: Trust the Liberals to get involved in the Americans came to draw up their constitution and semantics. Everyone else knew what I was talking about. were considering the lengths of terms of office and the roles of the upper and lower Houses and of the Executive, I suggest to the Minister that there is general good they held a four-month constitutional convention in will in the House for fixed-term Parliaments, fixed-term 1789. They brought together some of the great minds of elections, or whatever phraseology we want to use to the day, including Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, describe what we all know we are talking about. There James Madison, Alexander Hamilton and one James is consensus on that principle, but the Government Wilson, who was a native of Fife and educated at must decide whether they will listen to the voice not just St Andrew’s university, and who emigrated to the colonies of political opponents, but of people who want that in the 1750s. They spent four months debating those constitutional change. It is not a long way to travel to matters, and only at the end of that time, after a proper recognise major constitutional and practical problems detailed debate, did they deign to bring forward detailed with the date that they have chosen, and with the proposals for their terms of office, fixed terms and five-year term in principle. A coalition is also about so on. listening to people outside the coalition, and I hope that the Government will yet come forward with a change to Mr Shepherd: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will the Bill so that the House can agree on fixed-term not forget one of the very important constituent parts elections in a way that allows us all to move forward of that whole debate—namely, the federalist papers. without making it an issue of acrimony between parties. They laid out the arguments for the wider public, which were fiercely debated with proposition and counter- Thomas Docherty: I welcome you to the Chair, Miss proposition. That was a formidable ingredient that involved Begg. As I sat here this afternoon and this evening, I an awful lot of people. saw my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), my right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting Thomas Docherty: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman (Sadiq Khan), my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda for that point, and I apologise for not having touched (Chris Bryant) and hon. Members on the Government on it. He is entirely right to say that the work of the likes Benches, and I had a feeling of déjà vu. I felt that we of Madison and Hamilton was crucial, but that there had been here quite recently, and it occurred to me that was also a great debate. They did not try to rush their that was so. proposal through. We had a debate in Committee just three weeks Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): We are certainly ago—[Interruption.] As the hon. Member for Foyle being educated here tonight. Does my hon. Friend said, it was to discuss a Bill with a different title, but one agree that the Philadelphia convention was conducted 825 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 826

[Stephen Pound] However, in the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish elections in that year, there will have to be TV debates on the basis of a tabula rasa, and that those people were within the nations and regions covering the leaders of starting from a base point? What we see here before us the Social Democratic and Labour party, the Democratic today is a foul, expedient hotch-potch of crisis and Unionist party and so on in Northern Ireland, the chaos spatchcocked together to try to allow the coalition Scottish National party, Labour, the Conservatives and to limp on into the future. To compare it to the great the Liberals in Scotland, and similar arrangements in towering genius of Hamilton, Jefferson and Madison is Wales. That will become incredibly complicated and to do them a disservice and to give the present coalition could be open to serious legal challenge if we hold the Government rather too much credit. two elections on the same day. The SNP or Plaid could argue that, if the leader of the Labour party gets double Thomas Docherty: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the exposure, Labour’s vote could go up. I suspect, for making that excellent point. When I look at those on however, that such exposure for the Deputy Prime the Government Front Bench, however, I see some Minister would only drive down even further the Liberal nuggets of hope and principle, and I am sure they will Democrat share of the vote in Scotland and, probably, listen carefully to the points that we are making. in Wales. The Minister might be interested to know that, when There are also some serious logistical problems that the Americans were considering term lengths for their need to be considered. My hon. Friend the Member for parliamentarians and for the presidency, they originally Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) stole my line about considered a three-year term for the House of having different polling stations for the Scottish Representatives and a seven-year term for the presidency parliamentary election and the Westminster election. I and the Senate. Before the Minister gets too excited am sure that that such a situation could also be true for about the idea of a seven-year term, however, I should Wales and Northern Ireland. tell him that they also considered making it for one There is actually a Member at the heart of the term only. Indeed, they argued that the Executive branch Government who does not agree with holding elections should not sully itself by seeking re-election. I suspect on the same day. I accept that his Bill on the decoupling that he would be less keen on that principle. Slowly, of the local government and Scottish Parliament elections however, over that summer, they moved towards a settled was introduced when he was a Member of the Scottish will among the 13 colonies. In fact, I should say 12 colonies Parliament, but it might be helpful if I quote the junior because, as hon. Members will know, Rhode Island did Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland. I not attend any part of the convention. They settled on a understand that he has attended the debate today. He system of two-year terms for the House of Representatives, was referring to the local government and Scottish six-year terms for the Senate and four-year terms for the Parliament elections, but the principles apply across the presidency. However, the elections for the United States board. He said: Senate have always been staggered—a point that I regret the Government have not taken on board—so that each “I have always held the view that separate elections for local voter in every state has the opportunity to cast their government and the Scottish Parliament would allow for real local accountability by increasing the focus on the real issues of verdict on the Senate no more than four years apart. local government which are currently overshadowed by the policies That point seems to have passed by some of those on of the Scottish Parliament.” the Government Benches. There is no reason not to extend that logic to the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. On page 7 8.15 pm of his consultation document, he went on to say: Of course, there are reasons closer to home why we “Supporters of combined elections argue that by keeping local might wish to move to a fixed term of four years. I shall government together with higher profile elections a higher turnout not repeat the points that were made earlier, but I can be maintained. This is, however, only hiding the problem of a should like to take the Scottish perspective for a moment. disengaged local electorate, not solving it. The real solution lies in It is interesting that the Gould report—which the Deputy local politicians that respond to local issues, delivering specific Prime Minister admitted on Third Reading of the solutions to the specific problems in their community.” Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill I am sure that the Minister will absolutely agree with his he had not actually read; he had read a report of the colleague. report—made it absolutely clear that having multiple I am conscious of the time, and of the fact that other elections on the same day would inevitably lead to Members wish to speak. I look forward to the Minister confusion. The Electoral Commission has also raised reflecting on the comments of the Under-Secretary of that matter, and the electoral administration officers for State for Scotland, and on the wisdom of our colonial Scotland are deeply concerned about their ability to cousins. I also look forward to him supporting our deal not only with the referendum and the Scottish amendments. Parliament elections being held on the same day in 2011 but with the general election and the Scottish elections Sheila Gilmore: It is a great pleasure to serve under in 2015. your chairmanship in this debate, Miss Begg. I want to There is also the important issue of the television focus on the practical issues, as we have heard quite a debates. I should explain to those colleagues who have lot of constitutional theorising, and, indeed, a great not had the pleasure of representing a constituency in deal of fascinating history.When I first saw these proposals, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland that there is a real I assumed, perhaps rather naively, that the Government challenge involved. The main debates for the Westminster had simply made a big mistake, and that they had not election in 2015 will be among the three party leaders, realised that, as a result of going for five-year fixed-term assuming that the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats Parliaments with immediate effect—that is, in relation have not merged into a single party for electoral purposes. to the length of this Parliament—the date of the general 827 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 828 election would coincide with the Scottish parliamentary an arrangement to ensure that that would not happen elections, the Welsh Assembly elections and the Northern again. It seems odd to voters in Scotland, and certainly Ireland Assembly elections. I thought that once they to political activists there, that we are not just returning realised that that was a problem they would rethink to the position in which we found ourselves in 2007, their proposition, if only in purely practical terms and but, I would argue, putting ourselves in a considerably even if there were a theoretical argument for five years worse position. being better than four—and I have certainly not heard Although this will not simply be a matter of practicalities, one today—but they did not do so. I should like to draw attention to some of the practicalities My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and of which Government Members may not be aware. The West Fife (Thomas Docherty) said that he hoped that boundaries relating to the Scottish Parliament and the when the Minister summed up the debate—on Third Westminster constituencies are now very different. They Reading, of course, the debate may be summed up by have moved apart because the number of Scottish the Deputy Prime Minister himself—he would take constituencies represented here was reduced in 2005. some of those issues on board, but I fear that, if the The Scottish Parliament boundaries have been changed previous constitutional Bill is anything to go by, that very recently. Their size has not been reduced and the will not happen. The Deputy Prime Minister could have numbers have not changed, but there has been a substantial written his summing-up speech for the Third Reading redrawing which, in most cases, has moved them even of that Bill before the debate had even started. Indeed, I further from the Westminster boundaries. There are believe that he had, given that so little reference was some very strange boundaries, making it difficult for made to the hours spent in Committee and the different people to understand who represents them and what arguments that had been put at that stage. It seemed constituency they are in. that none of those arguments had been listened to. People who live in the southernmost part of the I appreciate that many Government Members have constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh no experience of the practical issues that we have raised. South (Ian Murray) for Westminster purposes will be in There is, after all, only one Conservative Member of Edinburgh Eastern for the purposes of the Scottish Parliament who represents a Scottish seat. There are parliamentary elections next year. Given that they live Scots who represent other seats, but there is only one in the far south of Edinburgh, they find it quite difficult Conservative MP who does so, and as far as I am aware to fathom why they have effectively been transported to he has not been present much during our debates or a different part of the city. That will cause not just a contributed much to them. Some junior members of the potential for electoral confusion, but serious practical coalition—the junior partners—represent Scottish seats, problems relating to the organisation of the elections. but they too have been fairly conspicuous by their Even more important is the blurring and confusing of absence for much of the debate. However, the hon. the real political differences that have emerged since Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) has now devolution. I am sure that the same applies to Wales, arrived, and the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire although I probably do not know enough about its (Jo Swinson) was briefly present earlier. politics or history. No doubt my colleagues will rush to enlighten me. Our politics in Scotland, however, have Mrs Laing: I simply must intervene to defend the developed very differently. Not many of the political honour of the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, parties represented in the Scottish Parliament take the my right hon. Friend the Member for Dumfriesshire, lines adopted by the coalition Government here. Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell), who is For instance, the coalition Government have decided indeed the only Conservative Member of Parliament in that they want to stop funding the building of affordable Scotland. He cannot take part in these debates because housing through grants—I assure you that this point is he is a Minister in a different Department, although he relevant to the debate, Miss Begg—and instead to fund was here earlier, when the Committee was dealing with it by raising rents, which means that tenants will pay for the important parts of the Bill that relate to Scotland. I the building of their new homes. I am absolutely positive cannot allow it to be on the record that he has not paid that no party represented in the Scottish Parliament, attention or that he has not taken part in these debates, even the Conservative party, will espouse such a position given that he is not allowed to do so. in Scotland through the Parliament. In the past—although the situation may change—all the parties in the Scottish Sheila Gilmore: I accept the hon. Lady’s point that Parliament have signed up to free personal care for the Minister cannot take part in the debate, but I have the elderly. At that time a different view was taken at not observed a great deal of discussion in the wider Westminster, and a different view was taken by my press, here or in Scotland, to which he has contributed. party and by others. However, although some might The point that I was making, however, is that many find it surprising, the Conservatives in Scotland have Government Members have no practical experience of signed up to that policy in the past. the position that obtained in 2007. I think that Government Members are inclined to make light of it and to imagine Mrs McGuire: In a radio programme that I heard on that we are stirring up a storm in a teacup over something Friday, a leading member of the Liberal Democrat that did not really matter, but it was important. It was a party in the Scottish Parliament said that in no bad day for democracy when so many things went circumstances would the Liberal Democrats introduce wrong with that combined election. Yes, it did have tuition fees. Has my hon. Friend any idea how we could something to do with the design of the forms; I am not conduct a debate about tuition fees—given the position going to say that it did not, for the design did not help. of one of the partners in the coalition Government, the However, the real issue in that context, which was Liberal Democrat party—while also trying to conduct a addressed after 2007, was the decoupling of the local debate about funds for students in Scotland, with all government and Scottish Government elections, with that happening at the same time as the two elections? 829 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 830

Sheila Gilmore: I entirely agree. That is another Sheila Gilmore: I thank my hon. Friend for that illustration of where the difficulty lies. It is not that information, and I do not think that Government Members people are stupid. It is not that the voters cannot appreciate that aspect. What we are talking about is not understand that there are two elections ongoing. It is a local government election that we might be facing that the issues will not be properly debated, and there next year or in 2015. The elections we are talking about will be confusion about what the various parties stand are not less important than general elections for people for. For example, Scottish Liberal Democrats may, as in Scotland, because people in Scotland consider the has been suggested, wish to campaign strongly about Scottish Government to be the Government of the the way they think universities should be funded. As country for the purposes for which they have powers. that is clearly different from the position taken by their They are a Government: they have a First Minister, a leadership here at Westminster, they are going to find it Cabinet and a national aspect in the sense that they are much harder to get their point of view across. the Government in a Parliament that covers the part of the UK that is Scotland. I am not trying to ignore Wales Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I am surprised or Northern Ireland at all in this, and the same principles that the hon. Lady thinks this will cause confusion since apply to them. Labour seemed to manage such a situation: they supported If we respect what we have achieved through devolution, the abolition of tuition fees in Scotland as part of the it is important that we do not allow that to be swamped. coalition there while simultaneously opposing that for We have those different debates and policies, and people the rest of the United Kingdom from the Government have their chance to vote differently, which they do—I Front Bench here in the last Parliament. am not for a minute going to suggest that people will not vote differently on the same day, because I know Sheila Gilmore: I was not suggesting that it is either that that can happen. The genuine ability to separate confusing in general terms or wrong that parties in out these areas of politics and to allow each legislature different parts of the United Kingdom should take its real place and presence within our constitution is different views. That has also happened in Wales, and it simply being ignored by these measures. As I have said, has happened on health issues and education issues. It is it seems to me that there is no reason for that. right that we should develop in that way; I think it is extremely healthy. It is a sign of the strength and success Mrs McGuire: My hon. Friend is making a powerful of devolution since 1999 that there can be such differences argument on the practical issues. Has she also had time of opinion even within political parties that are very to consider how the broadcasting authorities will maintain close and see themselves as part of the same party. some element of balance, as they will have to schedule programmes for two different elections with two different political dynamics—with different parties being in different 8.30 pm positions in different parts of the country? Are we not Thomas Docherty: For the benefit of those Lib Dems placing an impossible burden on those whom we are who are only arriving now, so very late to the debate, asking to implement the legislation currently going may I ask my hon. Friend whether she agrees with the through the House? following point made tonight by the leader of Plaid Cymru and others—that confusion will be caused by Sheila Gilmore: I agree with my right hon. Friend. having two elections on the same day, especially as they Yet again, that is another aspect of a situation that we will be preceded by TV debates with on one night the are creating. Apparently—the hon. Member for Epping party leader for the UK saying that his party will pursue Forest (Mrs Laing) let the cat out of the bag—this is one policy and the following night the party leader in being done not for any good and strong constitutional Wales or Scotland saying something else? reason or because we can argue about the history of the past 200 years, but because it suits this coalition Government Sheila Gilmore: I absolutely agree. The problem is not to have this Parliament last for five years. It suits them to do with people taking different positions; it is to do to have this provision wrapped up with the other parts with what will happen in the month or few weeks before of the Bill, which will be debated later, to try to ensure an election when the issues are being debated on the that the coalition holds together. This is being wrapped hustings and being reported in the newspapers. I have up as a constitutional Bill and it is being presented as an awful vision of us running two sets of hustings and something that will last into the future but, given our trying to get people to come out to slightly chilly church constitution, it is possible for a future Parliament to halls to listen to completely different debates on different change that, so we are not entrenching things. nights—although it is perfectly possible to get people to come out to such events when elections take place at Thomas Docherty: My hon. Friend mentions the different times. Why make this happen when we do not future. Has she, like me, worked out that if we have a have to? second five-year term, we will run slap bang into the local government elections in Scotland, which we have Chris Bryant: Is the point not that elections to the put back by a year? We would then have an even worse Assemblies of Wales and Northern Ireland and to the situation than the one in 2007, with a general election Parliament in Scotland feel like general elections? Indeed, and the local government elections leading to hundreds effectively the law treats them like general elections in of thousands of spoiled ballot papers. that a free post is allowed through the Royal Mail and the broadcasters have to report events in certain ways. A Sheila Gilmore: I thank my hon. Friend for that conflict will arise if every 20 years we hold these elections information, because it adds to the important case that on the same day. we are presenting. The people who find this highly 831 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 832 amusing clearly have not had the experience that we is sustainable and stable. Separating national elections had. It is incumbent on a Government who said that from UK elections is an important part of that, because they would want to look at the evidence and make it makes for a crisper, more certain mandate from the decisions on the basis of hard facts to listen to the people whom we have a duty to serve. When the people evidence being given by people who have been through are going to the polls for the Assembly or the parliamentary this process and who understand the complexities of elections, they should be clear that those are the prime devolution in a situation where we still have a UK elections to focus on. When there is a UK election, they Government. We have had experience of this, as have can focus on that. For that reason, four-yearly terms the elected bodies, which have given their view very would be much better at this time. clearly to the UK Government but have been ignored. They were not consulted before this, but they gave their Sheila Gilmore: I thank my hon. Friend for his view and told of their experience, so it is not asking too intervention, with which I wholly agree. much of any Government to say, “Perhaps we have not Ordinary electors thought that a hung Parliament got this right.” would be a good idea, because they genuinely believed Perhaps the simplest thing for the Government to do that there would be openness and that people would is not to try to see whether they could slip the election listen to different points of view. That has not happened. by a month, as has been suggested by some people. That The strong views of the elected Governments of Wales, would represent the worst of all possible worlds for the Scotland and Northern Ireland have not been listened voters, let alone for the political parties. The simplest to. The bulk of the evidence given to the Select Committee thing would be to say, “We have got this wrong, but we on Political and Constitutional Reform, of which I am believe in fixed-term Parliaments.” The Labour party a member, was clearly in favour of four-year fixed-term proposed fixed-term Parliaments in its manifesto and Parliaments. Why should that weight of evidence be the Liberals believe in them too. I am not sure whether ignored? Was that what people expected from a more the Conservatives believe in them, but they introduced consensual and open approach? I think that a lot of this legislation so presumably they now do. We all seem people thought that coalition meant that we would get to agree that there should be fixed-term Parliaments. the best bits from everyone and that everyone would sit On that basis, why are we having this debate? Because around and have discussions— the coalition Government are so determined to stick to their first thought, which was to have five years. Lorely Burt: We did. The Government may be doing that only for advantage and to feel that they have the longest possible time in Sheila Gilmore: The hon. Lady seems to think that which to be the Government. I have to say to the hon. they did get the best bits from everyone, but that makes Member for Epping Forest that she and others on the it clear to me that she did not believe in the manifesto Government Benches may feel that they have an entitlement on which she stood because so many parts of it seem to to sit for five years, having been elected, but a lot of have been ditched in favour of the policies of the other people in the country have a very different view. The party. majority party in the coalition did not get a majority for A small and simple change—a very small concession— its policies. The junior partner in the coalition went to that would not in any way interfere with the principle of the people on a different set of policies, so the people fixed-term Parliaments would make it far easier for the who voted for the Liberals did not vote for the programme Bill to be passed relatively quickly. It would allow of this coalition Government. The Government’s approach national elections in all parts of the United Kingdom to seems particularly unfortunate for democracy in this go forward in the best possible way and our devolved country, given that the Government do not have a Parliaments and Assemblies to present their policies to mandate to rule in the majoritarian fashion that they the electorate in the way they want to. are doing. 8.45 pm Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): Is the hon. Lady therefore Our media are very England-centric—and, indeed, saying that her party does not accept that a coalition of London-centric—although Government Members might two parties is sufficient to run the country? Does she not be so acutely aware of that as Opposition Members believe only in first-past-the-post majority rule, and are, and I fear that the domination of the UK-wide poll must we keep having elections until we get some sort of and the important issues it involves, which must be majority Government by default? dealt with, will be such that the important elections for the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Sheila Gilmore: Coming from Scotland and having Northern Ireland Assembly will, sadly, be overwhelmed. seen both coalitions and minority Governments in I fear that the issues, ideas and important policies that operation, I am very open to various ways of running a concern those elections will not be fully debated before Government. I would not for a minute want to suggest the population, that the arguments will not be properly that it always has to be an absolute majority, that first heard and that people will not get the chance to have past the post is what we need or that we need majorities. their say about how those legislatures have functioned in the preceding years, but it is important that they Nic Dakin: My hon. Friend is making an eloquent should get that say. and forceful argument, drawing on the arguments that The bulk of the evidence that the Select Committee we have heard before. She is saying very well that there heard was that what is being asked is not a lot. It seems is consensus in this House about fixed-term Parliaments, to be simply stubbornness—perhaps it is about political but that constitutional change should be undertaken advantage above all else—to stick to the same position very carefully to ensure that it creates a settlement that in the face of all the arguments that we have heard. I 833 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 834 hope that it is not too late, even now, for the Government silken curtains, the great four-poster bed that the to rethink their position and to allow the Bill to pass Conservatives occupy represent a compromise, which is through the House with the agreement of all parties the basis of the coalition. because we have reached genuine consensus. The Bill on the Floor of the House today at the Committee stage refers to the creation of a structure Stephen Pound: It is a delight and pleasure to serve that will bind together two disparate groups of people—the under you, Miss Begg. This evening has been an people who virtually bought the house and the lodgers extraordinarily educative process. We have looked very on the camp bed in the front room. You may think that far back into the past and I should like to imagine some that is not relevant, and I would have to say, Miss Begg, time in the future. I imagine a group of fresh-faced that I agree with you, but the point that I am trying to young students in some constitutional history class at make is that the Bill must be seen in the context from some as-yet-unbuilt school—perhaps the Tony Blair which it comes. faith academy, the Ann Widdecombe college of dance and drama or, hopefully, the Eleanor of Epping college Chris Bryant: Is not the point, in relation to five-year of education for the daughters of gentlefolk. In one of or four-year fixed-term Parliaments, the one that was those as-yet-unbuilt but glorious buildings, some pernickety made by the professor of constitutional law at King’s pedagogue will turn to the class and say, “Let us go college London, Robert Blackburn who, in his evidence back to the November of 2010 and see what the House to the Select Committee, said of the genesis of the Bill of Commons was debating.” The pedagogue will say, that “They were discussing the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill,” “it is, I think, fairly clear that it is driven by the political self-interest and someone will ask, “What was the context?” The of the coalition Government. They want to fix the lifetime of this Government amendments before us refer specifically to Government—not the Parliament, but the Government”? compromise, but the key point is the context in which the Government are bringing the Bill before the House Stephen Pound rose— tonight. It is based on expediency, not ethics. Just as no good fruit can grow from a diseased tree, the coalition is The Temporary Chair: Order. The hon. Member for like the upas tree, poisoning the soil all around it. They Ealing North (Stephen Pound) will have seen from my are trying to poison our very constitution with this body language that he is not pleasing me. He is continuing appalling Bill. with a Second Reading speech. He must address the amendments—not just mention them, but address the The Temporary Chair (Miss Anne Begg): Much as content of the amendments. I do not want to interrupt the hon. Gentleman’s flow, I remind him that we are in Committee and that he must Stephen Pound: Miss Begg, I am, as ever, attendant to address his comments to the amendments before us, your body language and I am interpreting every flicker rather than the Bill in general. of that elegantly sculptured eyebrow, even as we speak. The Septennial Act 1715, as amended by the Parliament Stephen Pound: I stand abashed, ashamed and corrected, Act 1911, is the Act that we will lose, should the Bill but, as ever, eager to serve, Miss Begg. I was about to reach the statute book. The key point is that if, in the turn specifically to the amendment of the hon. Member interest of expediency and of pleasing the coalition, we for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), bring in a five-year fixed-term Parliament in contra- who speaks for Plaid Cymru. The amendment is supported indication and contrast to the existing legislation, we by a broad coalition of the better brains in the House, place this country in peril indeed. The Bill at present including the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar on the Floor of the House at Committee stage, which (Mr MacNeil), whose constituency is possibly the most I read with great care a few moments ago, is hedged unpronounceable in Scotland. The amendment offers around with all sorts of caveats so that an election may an alternative to the centralist, Stalinist, steel-like structure not be held on a day of national mourning or thanksgiving of a five-year Parliament. It offers something that we or on Christmas day. The Bill is limiting. are prepared to support for the good of the nation although not all of us believe in it entirely in our I support the amendment because that limitation hearts—a four-year fixed-term Parliament. restricts the right and privilege of the House to decide, under certain circumstances. There are emergencies or To see the amendments in the specific context, we there may be some dramatic situation where an election have to think of what happened in May this year, when has to take place. The removal of the royal prerogative, two groups of people were trying to buy a house. They on this day of all days, is not something that I wish to were trying to bid for that great mansion of state that is comment on. this United Kingdom, and they found that even as the previous occupants were leaving with dignity from the Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman mentions days front door, neither of them had enough money to buy when the election can take place. Does he agree that the the house, so they both moved in at the same time. devolved Parliaments and Assemblies of the United Maybe they daubed the soffit with a bit of yellow and Kingdom should be given proper respect, and therefore put a touch of blue on the eaves, but they had no choice. that new clause 4 should be supported? That would You will no doubt be asking yourself, Miss Begg, how allow them to see whether particular days did not suit this relates to the amendments before us. That is precisely them. Whether it be Christmas, Burns night, Hallowe’en what I was coming to. I do not wish to comment on the or whatever, they should be given the choice if there sleeping habits of Liberal Democrats. That is far too were a clash between the elections to this place and to exotic an area for me, but the camp bed in the living the great Parliament of Scotland, and the attendant room and, in the master bedroom, surrounded by damask media were unable to cope. 835 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 836

Stephen Pound: Today is Eid al-Adha, and that is an fifth year—what dreadful temptations would come the important factor that should be taken into consideration. way of susceptible politicians? Legislation would be At the risk of offending my hon. Friend the Member for front-loaded, knowing that there was never the possibility Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) and being too London- of an early election by which they might be made centric, there are different times in different parts of accountable to the people. I appreciate that clause 1 this United Kingdom when an election may not be may be influenced by future legislation on recalls. We appropriate. Judging by the results, it seems we may could find ourselves with so many recall petitions that have had an election on Hallowe’en on a few occasions, we in fact have a new Parliament in the middle. There but there are certain days on which demonstrably we are certain aspects in the Bill later—not specifically should not be doing so. However, by limiting ourselves relevant to clause 1, before you mention it, Miss Begg— in this way, by applying this template of centralism to which refer to the power to dissolve. But the most the whole structure, we put ourselves in danger, which is important, most salient point here is that if we locked why new clause 4, an elegantly crafted piece of work, the system into a four-year or five-year cycle, we would which stands by itself in all its wonder and majesty, is lose that glorious uncertainty of the democratic oversight. something that we should happily support. We would lose that concern, may I say, even, on occasion, Clause 2(4), to which the amendments relate, shows that fear of the electorate, which is the honest emotion the dreadful problems that we have. It states: that parliamentarians should always feel. “Before issuing a certificate, the Speaker of the House of Commons must consult the Deputy Speakers (so far as practicable). Mr MacNeil: The reason we want a fixed-term What thought has gone into this, when it says “so far as Parliament, particularly those in minority parties, who practicable”? The amendment addresses that specific point. are never in the party of government in this situation—in Scotland we made sure that it is far more democratic—is The Temporary Chair: The amendments that we are not the fear of the electorate, it is the fear of the debating relate to clause 1, not clause 2, so I ask the Government, using the particular wins that they have hon. Gentleman to return to the amendments on created for their own advantage in a narrow period of clause 1. time. There is an advantage in a fixed-term Parliament. Some people prefer five, some people prefer four. I am Stephen Pound: You are absolutely correct, as in all in the four camp— things, Miss Begg. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Patrick Nic Dakin: I am following my hon. Friend’s argument McLoughlin): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? very carefully, as all hon. Members will be. Is it not true that all the evidence is that in their fifth year Parliaments Mr MacNeil: I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman run out of steam and get tired, and the country is when I make my own speech. impatient for democratic renewal, and is not that why we should have four-year Parliaments or, as my hon. 9pm Friend the Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) Stephen Pound: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s argued, three-year Parliaments? intervention, because mention was made earlier—perhaps Stephen Pound: One reason why I support clause 1, too much mention for many of us—of the American page 1, line 13, is not because I am massively enamoured political system, where, by having fixed terms, there is of the joys of four-year Parliaments as opposed to permanent campaigning and fundraising, a permanence five-year Parliaments, nor because I think that there is a that takes away what I referred to as the glorious natural rhythm in the political cycle that means that uncertainty borne of the possibility and potential of every few years we get exhausted and have to have an hearing the people’s voice. The voices of the funding election, but because it is the least-worst option. It is committees and various other supportive bodies are unfortunately a fact that sometimes we have to present heard, but that sword of Damocles, which should be that option. I happily present the hon. Gentleman from hanging over the head of every politician in a modern the constituency that one day I will be able to pronounce. democracy, is somehow removed, because it is winched slowly down by clockwork, instead of dangling from a piece of monofilament. Mr MacNeil: There has been confusion in the House that somehow five years is bad and four years is good. It Now, I think that the right hon. Member for Derbyshire is almost Orwellian. The fact that five years in the UK Dales (Mr McLoughlin) wanted to intervene. has turned out to be bad is because people tend to leave it to five years. The reason I support four years is not Mr McLoughlin indicated dissent. because I think five years is particularly bad, but four years is long enough to spend without going back to the Stephen Pound: Are you sure? people to ask for another mandate. It is a democracy, I hope that I have expressed tonight a sincere and heartfelt after all, and ultimately the people, through the ballot view that, just as everything must be seen whence it box, rule. Politicians and elected people are stretching sprang, this Bill, which we are considering in Committee, the credulity of the electorate to go beyond four years. has sprung from a coalition that is fundamentally unsound The example of Scotland again is tremendous for and based not on political realities but expediency. The Westminster. group of proposed changes before us, which would set the date, elections and length of a Parliament, would go Stephen Pound: Amendment 11 addresses these points. some way towards mitigating this—I dare not say “evil”, The reality is that if we had a fixed-term Parliament—I because that would be too strong a word—sordid, mean, appreciate I am arguing for a fourth year rather than a pettifogging, limp, expediency of a Bill. 837 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 838

Mark Durkan: I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. announced in the coalition agreement our intention to introduce a Bill for fixed-term Parliaments, and I have Jonathan Edwards: Is he your friend? listened to a good number of arguments for and against the proposed five-year term, not least today. The Mark Durkan: I confess. Government strongly believe that a five-year fixed term is right, not only for this Parliament but for subsequent My hon. Friend makes the point about the number of Parliaments, as it will provide the country with the amendments in this group, and they aim to ensure not strong and stable Government that it needs. just that the term is fixed at four years, but that the cycle of fixed terms does not clash with the cycle of fixed terms for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland elections. Mr MacNeil rose— This Chamber has already imposed a UK referendum on those elections next year, and now, under this Bill, Mr Harper: Let me make a little more progress, and the Government want to impose a UK general election then I will give way. on the devolved elections in 2015 as well. We have heard arguments in favour of a four-year or three-year fixed term. However, the statistical evidence Stephen Pound: My hon. Friend, not for the first time shows that if we exclude the three very short Parliaments and almost certainly not for the last, makes a very since the war, the average length of Parliaments has powerful and pertinent point. If the Bill proceeds tonight approached four and a half years. The first point that I without the benefit of the amendments that we are would make in respect of the arguments for four-year or discussing, it will be not just the political cycle that is three-year Parliaments is that those advocating them locked into a four or five-year time frame, but the gave insufficient regard to the current arrangements, economic cycle and so many other aspects of life. They which my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest will then be locked into a fixed term. That fixed term (Mrs Laing) outlined in observing that this Parliament will apply not just to Parliament, but to the country, is able to sit for five years. Indeed, if the Prime Minister and that is dangerous. It is dangerous if we always wanted to achieve the aim of this Parliament sitting for assume that, no matter what a Government do, they can five years, he would merely not ask the Queen to dissolve get away with it, because there will be no election for it for five years. The Bill has nothing to do with extending three, four or, heaven forbid, five years. the term of this Parliament. That is the danger, and that is when the markets start to build in an assumption of front-loading and when Mr MacNeil: If the hon. Gentleman is such a strong other countries assume that, although there may or may advocate of five years for a Parliament, would he extend not be a change of Government in the future, there will that strength of feeling to the devolved legislatures to not be one at that moment in time. That is when offence enable them to have five-year terms as well? If we do the is given to all parts of this nation with different traditions, multiplication—five times four equals 20—it is clear different histories and different days of great and signal that we will have the problem of the two dates clashing importance. There are so many fears, so many concerns, every 20 years. Would he be happy for Scotland, Wales so many worries, and the case made for the group of and Northern Ireland to move to five-year terms as amendments is so powerful and so much a matter of opposed to four? righteousness that it would be otiose of me to continue to press it any longer. Mr Harper: The problem to which the hon. Gentleman I sit down, Miss Begg, with apologies if I may on is alluding is the once-in-every-20-years coincidence of occasion have strayed slightly from the purity of the dates. If he will allow me to make some progress, I will amendments before us, but I hope profoundly that this address those issues later in my remarks. House will tonight agree that the people matter more than political fixes, and that somehow this is about the Chris Bryant: The Minister is being extremely constitution, not about the coalition. disingenuous. He said that the Prime Minister can keep going until 2015 if he wants to, but that is not the The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark case—he does not have a majority. In fact, the words of Harper): It is a great pleasure to speak with you, Miss Robert Blackburn to the Select Committee are right: Begg, in the Chair. “The Liberal Democrats want to be sure that the Conservative A number of Members said that they thought that leadership would not cut and run in the same way that a minority Administration with an informal pact with the Liberal Democrats the Government would be running out of steam, but it in Parliament might—as in 1974”. is a very clear sign that the Opposition are running out of steam when they have to wheel members of the The other side of the coin is that the Conservatives Whips Office in to argue a case—a case, actually, against want some guarantee that the Liberal Democrats will their own Front Benchers. Their Front Benchers are in not change their minds. The Prime Minister needs this favour of four-year terms, so the hon. Member for Bill to keep the coalition in power until 2015. Ealing North (Stephen Pound) would have done a The Temporary Chairman (Miss Anne Begg): Order. better job if he had troubled to read the Bill, the May I remind the hon. Gentleman that “disingenuous” amendments and clause 1. is not necessarily a parliamentary word? In addressing the amendments that deal with clause 1 on the proposed length of the fixed term and the date of Chris Bryant: I am sorry, Miss Begg—I did not mean the next election, it might be helpful to explain at the to suggest that the Minister was misleading the House. I outset why the Government have taken the approach think that his argument is misleading, but I am sure that that we have set out in the Bill. The Government he is not trying to mislead the House. 839 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 840

Mr Harper: I am grateful, Miss Begg. Mr Slaughter: Will the Minister give way? The hon. Gentleman is missing the point. He says that the Government can continue in office only if they Mr Harper: No, I am terribly sorry, but the hon. retain the confidence of the House. I will not dwell on Gentleman has not been here for the debate, so I am not this at length, Miss Begg, because that would be to going to give way to him. move on to arguments that we will make when we come My hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Nicky to clause 2. The Bill contains provisions whereby we will Morgan) drew attention to one of our arguments about have a fixed-term Parliament, but subject to two conditions: the need for long-term thinking. Many commentators, first, this House will, for the first time, have the power politicians and members of the public would argue that to cause an early general election; and secondly, we are Governments can be too short-term in their planning keeping the provision that a Government have to retain and decision making. We want to encourage future the confidence of the House. The hon. Gentleman is Parliaments and Governments to take a long-term view simply wrong. rather than look for short-term advantages. As a number Some Members, in trying to argue that four years is of my hon. Friends have argued, a five-year fixed term the norm and five years is only for Governments who would provide the country with a strong and stable are clinging on to power, have pointed to examples of Government. Parliaments that have lasted closer to four years than I turn to the amendments in this group. The hon. five. That completely overlooks the fact that elections Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell), who is that are called early, before the five-year term is up, are not in his place, seeks to set the length of Parliaments at often those where the Prime Minister of the day thought three rather than five years. I think perhaps he did that doing so might give their party a political advantage. himself a disservice when he quoted remarks of his own It was not that they somehow thought that four years constituents suggesting that a three-year term was needed was the more constitutionally appropriate length of so that he might last it, because of his age. I am only time for them to hold office. repeating what he said; I do not agree with it myself. Advocates of three or four-year terms are using as However, I simply do not agree with his argument. The their strongest argument the very enemy that the Bill is flaw in it came when he said that the Government designed to combat, which is political expediency at the parties wanted not a fixed term but a five-year term. expense of national interest. The right hon. Member for However, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is Stirling (Mrs McGuire), who is no longer in her place, perfectly capable, while the Government retain the asked why Labour did not think of the idea in 1997. I confidence of the House, of having a five-year term of can tell her that it was because the then Prime Minister, office. That has always been the constitutional position, Tony Blair, wanted to preserve his ability to cut and and the Bill is not necessary to ensure it. run and seek an election at whatever opportunity he thought best. Tristram Hunt: Will the Minister give way?

Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab) rose— Mr Harper: I will, because the hon. Gentleman has been here for the debate. Mr Harper: I am not going to give way to the hon. Tristram Hunt: In some of the speeches that we have Gentleman. He has not been here for most of the heard from the Deputy Prime Minister—I understand debate, so he can just stay in his seat. that he is giving one to the Hansard Society tonight The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) effectively rather than being in the Chamber to discuss the Bill, makes the case for Prime Ministers being able to cut which is rather scandalous—there has been much talk and run. The current Prime Minister is the first one who about the Chartists and how this great reform is an echo has put aside that ability in the move to a fixed-term of the 1840s. The Chartists were in favour of yearly Parliament. elections, so why does the Deputy Prime Minister deny the will of the people by keeping Parliaments at five Mr Shepherd: My hon. Friend sets aside the words of years? Asquith, who predates any shenanigans on the matter, but will he consider the fact that the longest-serving Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman is quite right about Prime Minister of the last century was Lady Thatcher? the point that the Chartists made, but I do not happen She had four-yearly elections like a metronome, so there to think that annual elections would be a good idea, and is experience of the concept of Prime Ministers believing from my experience I am not sure that the people of this that four years is an appropriate time. country would be over-enamoured of us if we said that we would trouble them with a general election every Mr Harper: I am glad that my hon. Friend mentions year. I believe that they will be content with our proposal. Baroness Thatcher, who of course was a great Prime We do not want to end up with a situation in which the Minister and served this country well. I remember the people of the United Kingdom are subject to a permanent elections that she called in 1983 and 1987, which she election campaign. That is the evidence that the Constitution won with resounding majorities and continued to serve Committee in the other place has received. My hon. the country. I am sure that if she were here, she would Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) agree that when she asked Her Majesty the Queen to drew attention to the matter when he looked at the US dissolve Parliament, she thought about the likely congressional experience in the lower House where, consequences of those elections and the likelihood that effectively, as soon as Congressmen get elected, they the Conservative party would be returned to office. She instantly turn their thoughts to their re-election and was a politician—a very successful one—and I do not spend most of their period of office having to raise think I do her a disservice if I point that out. money for expensive election campaigns. 841 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 842

9.15 pm State for Scotland and Wales will be available to discuss those matters with parties represented in the Parliament Mr MacNeil: Let me pick up on that point about the and the Assembly. American Congress and the House of Representatives. There are a number of American politicians—those in Mr MacNeil: I am grateful for what I feel is the safe seats and those who are unopposed—who are not partial acceptance of new clause 4. How drawn is the on a constant campaign. The Minister made a fair Minister to the time of six months? point about Lady Thatcher, especially given the partisan point that he could have made. She looked at the party Mr Harper: That is something that we will be able to advantage of her electoral cycle and that is why she discuss when we consult Members in the other places. probably went for four years. If the Minister does not This power will only be exercisable in the years in which support the five-year terms for the devolved legislatures, elections coincide, because it is to deal with that specific will he support new clause 4 that would allow the issue; it is not a general power. As for the ability of the devolved legislatures to avoid the clash with the Westminster Parliament and the Assembly to bring their elections Parliament? forward, we feel that two-thirds of MSPs or AMs would be needed to support such a move. As the hon. Mr Harper: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, Gentleman said, this is not a power that should not be I will soon get to that point and to new clause 4. I just given to the Administrations; this is a power that should want to take this in order. be given to the Parliament and the Assembly. My final point for the hon. Member for Great Grimsby—he did not address this in his remarks, so I Several hon. Members rose— can only assume that it is an oversight—is that his amendment would mean that the next election would Mr Harper: I will give way to the hon. Member for take place on a Tuesday. He gave us no indication of Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) again, and then I why he would want to do that, so I assume that his will give way to the hon. Member for Rhondda. If the amendment is technically as well as logically flawed. hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) will give me a moment, I will get to Northern Ireland and then I will Let me turn now to amendments 11, 12 and 13, the take his intervention if he still wishes to make one. first of which was ably moved by the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), Mr MacNeil: I am grateful to the Minister for giving and supported by those on the Opposition Front Bench. way once more. I do not want to seem pedantic, but for The amendments primarily make the argument for four-year the sake of clarity, does he mean that two thirds of the terms, which is probably a good moment to pick up on relevant devolved legislatures can move elections both the point about the coincidence with the devolved elections. back and forward, or only back? The hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) was a little too soon in her criticisms of what Ministers Mr Harper: The position at the moment is that two will do, because she had not actually heard what I was thirds can bring about an early election, and there is no going to say. She did exactly the same when we debated power to extend the term, so to answer the hon. Gentleman’s the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies question, that means two thirds for both. Bill, and she was not correct in what she said. The Committee, of which she is a member, was behind an Chris Bryant: I apologise if this is a similar point to amendment that was moved by my hon. Friend the the one made by the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan Member for Epping Forest. Although we did not accept an Iar (Mr MacNeil). The legislatures already have the the amendment, we took it away and brought back a power to bring forward elections, but there is to be a Government amendment to do exactly what the hon. power to extend. In effect, therefore, the Government Lady wanted, which was to reduce the ability of Ministers are extending this Parliament, the Scottish Parliament, to interfere with a boundary commission report. It was the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly not true to say that we did not listen to the House; we for the convenience of the coalition. In essence, the tabled an amendment that was inspired by the Committee Minister is saying that the motto of the Government is of which she is a member. The Government do listen. “Fewer Elections”. When the Deputy Prime Minister made the statement on 5 July, he recognised that the coincidence of the Mr Harper: No. The hon. Gentleman must not keep devolved elections in 2015 with the UK general election giving the Committee misleading arguments. The Bill was qualitatively different from the coincidence of the does not extend the term of this Parliament—this referendum and the elections next year. He has discussed Parliament can run for five years. Members of the the matter with the devolved Administrations and devolved Parliament and Assemblies have asked the the Presiding Officers. He said that he would look at the Government to think about how they can make a matter, and he has kept that promise. I can tell the decision on whether to move the date—a sensible House that we will consult the parties in the devolved provision—of elections. Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly to give them the power to defer the date of their elections by up to six Mr MacNeil rose— months—in other words, to move the election into the future to avoid coinciding with elections to this House. Chris Bryant rose— I shall write to the First Ministers, the Presiding Officers and all the parties represented in the Scottish Mr Harper: Let me finish setting out this point, Parliament and the Welsh Assembly tomorrow to set because I might be about to deal with any questions out that plan. My right hon. Friends the Secretaries of that the hon. Gentlemen have. 843 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 844

The Scottish Parliament, the National Assembly for experience to see whether the existing power is sufficient Wales and the Northern Ireland Assembly currently or whether they wish to modify it. They will consult have the power to vote with a two-thirds majority for parties in Northern Ireland, both now and after next early Dissolution. In Scotland and Wales, the relevant May, to see whether a further change needs to be made. Acts provide that if the early Dissolution is more than If so, we will legislate to bring it into force. six months before the scheduled election, the scheduled election must still take place. Elections to the devolved Mark Durkan: I thank the Minister for recognising legislatures must be held on the first Thursday in May. that the position in Northern Ireland is different. In We want to give them the power to extend, because if putting my name to new clause 4, I was conscious that it they have only the power to hold elections earlier, was in clear tension with sections 31 and 32 of the elections would effectively have to be held in the depths Northern Ireland Act 1998, to which he alluded. Will he of winter. The Government have listened on that point, give an explicit assurance, however, that Ministers in the which is why we want to consult the legislatures on the Northern Ireland Office will involve all the parties in ability to extend the date, which will give them much Northern Ireland in discussions? The 1998 Act was more flexibility. derived from the Good Friday agreement, was based on It is worth making two other points. First, Scottish negotiations and agreements with all parties, and should Parliament and Welsh Assembly elections are materially be amended only by using the proper review mechanisms different from local government elections in England. in full and true spirit. The Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly are legislatures, and they already have a limited power to Mr Harper: As in Scotland and Wales, we want to vary the date of their elections. In England in recent hold these discussions with all the parties represented in decades, general elections have frequently been combined the Northern Ireland Assembly, because this is a matter with local elections. Combining local and mayoral elections not for whoever happens to be running the Administration, with a UK general election is normal practice in England. but for the Assembly and all the parties represented It is easily managed and should continue unchanged. in it.

Chris Bryant: The Minister is obviously making a Mark Durkan: Will the Minister indicate whether sensible proposal in that regard, but I presume that such Ministers might at least be open to hearing a clear a change requires primary legislation, and that he intends statement from all the parties, and perhaps the Assembly to advance that in the Bill. I hope that he does not at large, that our preference would be for parliamentary expect to make amendments in the House of Lords. elections on a four-year cycle, so that they do not clash Will he give an undertaking this evening that any such with the Assembly? That would be the easiest way to proposal will be made on Report in this House, and not avoid all sorts of problems. The formula that the Minister at any later stage? is using to allow the Northern Ireland Assembly to move its date might be an unachievable test: it might be Mr Harper: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman on impossible in the mixed-party circumstances of Northern behalf of the Labour party recognises that my proposal Ireland ever to achieve a two-thirds majority, so we is sensible. We will consult with the parties in the could be left with a political crisis and uncertainty. It Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly and introduce would be a lot better to fix the cycles. those changes at a later stage—I hope to do so sooner rather than later. Mr Harper: There are two issues there. First, we recognise that the existing legal position and structure Chris Bryant: In this Bill? of politics in Northern Ireland are different, which is why we have adopted this different approach. There will therefore be extensive consultation with Northern Ireland Mr Harper: In this Bill, and I hope sooner rather Ministers and all the parties in Northern Ireland. than later. The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) hit on a Chris Bryant: In this House? second point though. Changing the cycles and adopting four-year terms for both this Parliament and the devolved legislatures would not solve the problem, because there Mr Harper: I hope that it will happen sooner rather can be early elections—if, for example, there is a vote of than later. no confidence. If we had four-year cycles for everything The position in Northern Ireland is slightly different. and one early election, we could end up with the cycles One difference in the Northern Ireland settlement is coinciding not once every 20 years, as under our proposals, that if the date of the election is brought forward by but at every general and devolved election, which would whatever period, the original scheduled election does make the problem worse not better. Under our proposals, not have to be held. Also, the responsibility for Assembly the coincidence will happen only once every 20 years, elections, including the date, remains a matter for the not more frequently. Northern Ireland Secretary. He also holds the power to shift the date by two months either way, whereas the Jonathan Edwards: In the light of the Minister’s date for Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly elections concessions this evening, which we welcome, will he can be shifted by only one month. I have discussed that hold back Report to allow us to table further amendments? in great detail with Northern Ireland Ministers. Given the difference of the Northern Ireland settlement, Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman, who has been and that next year there is a triple combination of following the Bill’s progress very closely, will know that Assembly elections, local elections and the referendum, we have allocated the second day in Committee for next Northern Ireland Ministers want to learn form that Wednesday, but we have not announced a day on Report, 845 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 846

[Mr Harper] returned with a significant majority, it would not be right for that Government, perhaps with a clear mandate, so there is not a date to hold back. We have not been to be unable to put their programme to the country and rushing through the Bill’s proceedings at great pace. carry it through. When people go to the polls, they There was great discussion about the Gould report. expect that they are electing a Government who will last for a full term, with the ability to carry through a full Mr MacNeil: I have three points for clarification. Is programme. The Constitution Committee in the other the Minister guaranteeing that there will be no clash of place considered the evidence from other countries, election days between, say, Scotland and Westminster? including the Swedish model, and was told that the Will he guarantee that the six months he has spoken prospect of leaving the clock ticking actually protected about will be put into legislation? Finally, who will have the Government—the Executive—rather than the the power to shift the dates? We feel that that should be Parliament. for the devolved legislatures. Also, the point made by the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) about the Tristram Hunt: Will the Minister give way? difficulties of getting a two-thirds majority was apposite. But it is all in the mix. Mr Harper: Let me make some progress. Finally, new clauses 4 and 5 would provide that Mr Harper: I thought that I made it clear that it elections to this House and the devolved legislatures would be a two-thirds decision for—in the hon. Gentleman’s could not occur on the same day. The problem with that case—the Scottish Parliament. It could not be a simple proposal is that if it were agreed, it would provide that majority, because effectively that would give the power where a devolved legislature’s general election had been to the First Minister of Scotland or someone leading a moved, the following poll would take place on the first majority Administration simply to choose a date that Thursday in May four years later. For example, if one of suited them—and that would be wrong. It would therefore the devolved legislatures delayed its 2015 elections by be for the Parliament to make a choice about the one year, elections to that legislature and the House of election date. Commons would coincide again in 2020. New clauses 4 and 5 would mean that those elections would have to be Mr MacNeil: The choice? moved again in 2020, so they are actually a back-door method of substituting a five-year term for the devolved Mr Harper: The Scottish Parliament would have the legislatures. choice to consider the date. It could be moved by up to I do not know whether that was the intention of the six months—it does not have to be six months—but it hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr, who would be for the Parliament to make the decision. I gave spoke so powerfully against a five-year term and in a commitment that we would make that change in the favour of a four-year term, but the effect of his new Bill at a later stage of its progress. clauses would be to deliver a five-year term through the Let me turn briefly to amendment 32, to which my back door. For that reason I do not think that it would hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) be very sensible to accept them. Also, new clauses 4 and spoke on behalf of the Select Committee on Political 5 do not make provision for a super-majority, which and Constitutional Reform and which was effectively appears to suggest that a majority Government in a about whether we should reset the clock when there is devolved legislature could just play around with the an early election. The Committee’s train of thought, election date to suit themselves, which is the opposite of which she set out, was that if a party knew that it would what we are trying to achieve in this Bill. The Government get only the remainder of the term, it would be less therefore cannot accept new clauses 4 and 5, and I inclined to pass a Dissolution motion or a no-confidence would ask the hon. Gentleman not to press them to a motion. Her Committee suggested that if that was the Division. case, we would not need the super-majority proposal for In conclusion, I thank all hon. Members who have an early Dissolution. There is a technical problem with taken part in this debate, particularly those who were amendment 32 as drafted, because it would allow an here for the whole debate and those who have tabled or early election to be held at any time, right up to the next supported amendments to clause 1. The Government scheduled election, but would still force the scheduled are convinced that our Bill as drafted provides the right election to take place, so we could have an election in approach. I would urge hon. Members not to press their March and then another in May, which would not be amendments to a Division and to support clause 1. very sensible. Chris Bryant rose— 9.30 pm Tristram Hunt: Will the Minister give way? The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I am going to allow Mr Chris Bryant in, but I Mr Harper: Let me just finish this point. The Government know that he is going to make a very brief contribution. could not accept amendment 32 as drafted even if we thought that keeping the clock ticking was the right Chris Bryant: I am grateful to you, Mr Hoyle. I want thing to do. However, we thought about the issue carefully, to speak only because the Minister made some which we also debated a little on Second Reading. The announcements in his speech that are obviously significant. Government did not think that resetting the clock made [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman says, in a rather sense for this reason. If there were an early election self-righteous tone, that he made them to Parliament, because the Government had lost their majority and and we are delighted that he has done so—I presume gone to the country, and a Government were then that that is a criticism of his colleagues, not of anybody 847 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 848 else in the Chamber. However, he has made some important The Minister made the Government’s case, which announcements. He excoriated my hon. Friend the Member was also made on Second Reading. I welcome his for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) for referring to the comments on consulting the devolved Administrations Government position before we had heard what it was, about changing their dates by six months. That is a but as the Government chose not to make their position significant step forward. If he were able to promise that known until the very end of the debate, it is hardly her he would legislate following the consultation on the fault. As he knew that he was going to make his National Assembly elections—in the case of Wales it announcement this evening, he could perfectly well would not be the Secretary of State who would determine have written to all parties concerned to make it clear that matter but the Assembly, as the sovereign body—I that he wanted to consult on the issue. I suggest that would press only amendment 12 to the vote tonight on that would have shown slightly more respect to the the point of principle that the Committee should decide Committee and to the various political parties involved. whether we should have a four-year or a five-year cycle. The Minister is proposing a change, but I note that so Diolch. far he has not been prepared to say whether, if he Question put, That the amendment be made. intends to table further amendments, he will do so in The Committee divided: Ayes 242, Noes 315. this House. I wholly respect the powers and intelligence of the House of Lords to make sensible amendments, Division No. 118] [9.38 pm and I hope that it will do so to several pieces of legislation. However, I believe that amendments to AYES legislation that affects elections should be debated and Abbott, Ms Diane Darling, rh Mr Alistair made in the elected House, not in the unelected Chamber. Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob David, Mr Wayne That is why I hope that at some point the Minister will Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Davidson, Mr Ian make good his suggestions, that he will guarantee to Alexander, Heidi Davies, Geraint debate those amendments in this House first, and that Ali, Rushanara De Piero, Gloria we will not have Report stage until such time as those Austin, Ian Denham, rh Mr John Bailey, Mr Adrian Dobbin, Jim amendments have been made in this House. Bain, Mr William Dobson, rh Frank Balls, rh Ed Docherty, Thomas Jonathan Edwards: Diolch, Mr Hoyle. We have had Banks, Gordon Donohoe, Mr Brian H. an interesting and informative debate. I shall quickly Barron, rh Mr Kevin Doran, Mr Frank run through some of the contributions. As ever, the Beckett, rh Margaret Dowd, Jim hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr Shepherd) Bell, Sir Stuart Doyle, Gemma made some passionate and honest points. He is always Benn, rh Hilary Dromey, Jack Benton, Mr Joe Dugher, Michael respected throughout the House. The hon. Member for Berger, Luciana Durkan, Mark Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) argued coherently Betts, Mr Clive Eagle, Ms Angela and in detail. I cannot support his amendments, but I Blackman-Woods, Roberta Eagle, Maria am glad that he will support ours this evening. The hon. Blears, rh Hazel Edwards, Jonathan Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) made Blenkinsop, Tom Efford, Clive excellent points about the need to ensure that UK Blomfield, Paul Elliott, Julie general elections are held separately, and I am glad that Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Ellman, Mrs Louise the Minister accepted those points. The hon. Member Brennan, Kevin Engel, Natascha for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) made pertinent points Brown, Lyn Esterson, Bill about the Bill essentially entrenching the coalition rather Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Evans, Chris than being concerned with democracy.I can only apologise Brown, Mr Russell Farrelly, Paul to him for getting to the Table Office before him. Bryant, Chris Field, rh Mr Frank Buck, Ms Karen Fitzpatrick, Jim With her usual eloquence, the hon. Member for Epping Burden, Richard Flello, Robert Forest (Mrs Laing) highlighted the views of the Political Burnham, rh Andy Flint, rh Caroline and Constitutional Reform Committee, and I thank her Byrne, rh Mr Liam Flynn, Paul for her comments. The right hon. Member for Stirling Campbell, Mr Alan Fovargue, Yvonne (Mrs McGuire) spoke passionately about the political Campbell, Mr Ronnie Francis, Dr Hywel motives behind the Bill. The hon. Member for Dunfermline Caton, Martin Gapes, Mike and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) gave an insightful Chapman, Mrs Jenny Gardiner, Barry historical lesson on the US constitution and relevant Clark, Katy Gilmore, Sheila comparisons. The hon. Member for Edinburgh East Clarke, rh Mr Tom Glass, Pat (Sheila Gilmore) reminded us of the 147,000 spoiled Clwyd, rh Ann Glindon, Mrs Mary ballots in Scotland in 2007 due to the coupling of the Coaker, Vernon Goggins, rh Paul local government elections and the Scottish Parliament Coffey, Ann Goodman, Helen elections on the same day. Connarty, Michael Greatrex, Tom Cooper, Rosie Green, Kate The hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound), Cooper, rh Yvette Griffith, Nia as ever, made a compelling and entertaining speech, and Creagh, Mary Gwynne, Andrew I only wish that I had his oratorical talents. Creasy, Stella Hain, rh Mr Peter Cunningham, Alex Hamilton, Mr David Stephen Pound: My wife is Welsh. Cunningham, Mr Jim Hamilton, Fabian Cunningham, Tony Hanson, rh Mr David Curran, Margaret Harman, rh Ms Harriet Jonathan Edwards: That is important. It must be the Dakin, Nic Harris, Mr Tom Maesteg blood. Danczuk, Simon Havard, Mr Dai 849 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 850

Healey, rh John Murray, Ian NOES Hendrick, Mark Nandy, Lisa Adams, Nigel Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hermon, Lady Nash, Pamela Afriyie, Adam Dunne, Mr Philip Hillier, Meg O’Donnell, Fiona Aldous, Peter Ellis, Michael Hilling, Julie Onwurah, Chi Andrew, Stuart Ellison, Jane Hodge, rh Margaret Osborne, Sandra Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Ellwood, Mr Tobias Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Owen, Albert Bacon, Mr Richard Elphicke, Charlie Hoey, Kate Pearce, Teresa Bagshawe, Ms Louise Eustice, George Hollobone, Mr Philip Percy, Andrew Baker, Norman Evans, Graham Hood, Mr Jim Perkins, Toby Baker, Steve Evans, Jonathan Hopkins, Kelvin Phillipson, Bridget Baldry, Tony Evennett, Mr David Hosie, Stewart Pound, Stephen Barclay, Stephen Fabricant, Michael Howarth, rh Mr George Qureshi, Yasmin Barker, Gregory Fallon, Michael Hunt, Tristram Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Baron, Mr John Farron, Tim Illsley, Mr Eric Reed, Mr Jamie Barwell, Gavin Featherstone, Lynne Irranca-Davies, Huw Reeves, Rachel Bebb, Guto Field, Mr Mark James, Mrs Siân C. Reynolds, Emma Beith, rh Sir Alan Foster, Mr Don Jamieson, Cathy Reynolds, Jonathan Bellingham, Mr Henry Francois, rh Mr Mark Johnson, rh Alan Riordan, Mrs Linda Beresford, Sir Paul Freeman, George Johnson, Diana Robertson, John Berry, Jake Freer, Mike Jones, Graham Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Bingham, Andrew Fullbrook, Lorraine Jones, Helen Rotheram, Steve Binley, Mr Brian Fuller, Richard Jones, Mr Kevan Roy, Mr Frank Birtwistle, Gordon Garnier, Mark Jones, Susan Elan Roy, Lindsay Blackman, Bob Gauke, Mr David Jowell, rh Tessa Ruane, Chris Blackwood, Nicola George, Andrew Joyce, Eric Ruddock, rh Joan Blunt, Mr Crispin Gibb, Mr Nick Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Seabeck, Alison Boles, Nick Gilbert, Stephen Keeley, Barbara Sharma, Mr Virendra Bone, Mr Peter Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Keen, Alan Sheerman, Mr Barry Bradley, Karen Glen, John Kendall, Liz Shepherd, Mr Richard Brake, Tom Goldsmith, Zac Khan, rh Sadiq Sheridan, Jim Bray, Angie Goodwill, Mr Robert Lammy, rh Mr David Shuker, Gavin Brazier, Mr Julian Gove, rh Michael Lavery, Ian Skinner, Mr Dennis Bridgen, Andrew Graham, Richard Lazarowicz, Mark Slaughter, Mr Andy Brokenshire, James Grant, Mrs Helen Leslie, Chris Smith, rh Mr Andrew Brooke, Annette Gray, Mr James Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, Angela Browne, Mr Jeremy Grayling, rh Chris Lloyd, Tony Smith, Nick Bruce, Fiona Greening, Justine Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Smith, Owen Buckland, Mr Robert Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Love, Mr Andrew Soulsby, Sir Peter Burley, Mr Aidan Griffiths, Andrew Lucas, Caroline Spellar, rh Mr John Burns, Conor Gyimah, Mr Sam Lucas, Ian Straw, rh Mr Jack Burrowes, Mr David Halfon, Robert MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Stringer, Graham Burstow, Paul Hames, Duncan MacShane, rh Mr Denis Stuart, Ms Gisela Burt, Lorely Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mactaggart, Fiona Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Byles, Dan Hammond, Stephen Mahmood, Mr Khalid Tami, Mark Cairns, Alun Hancock, Matthew Mahmood, Shabana Thomas, Mr Gareth Campbell, Mr Gregory Hancock, Mr Mike Mann, John Thornberry, Emily Carmichael, Mr Alistair Hands, Greg Marsden, Mr Gordon Timms, rh Stephen Carmichael, Neil Harper, Mr Mark McCabe, Steve Trickett, Jon Carswell, Mr Douglas Harrington, Richard McCann, Mr Michael Turner, Karl Chishti, Rehman Harris, Rebecca McCarthy, Kerry Twigg, Derek Clappison, Mr James Hart, Simon McClymont, Gregg Twigg, Stephen Clark, rh Greg Harvey, Nick McFadden, rh Mr Pat Umunna, Mr Chuka Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan McGovern, Alison Vaz, rh Keith Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hayes, Mr John McGovern, Jim Vaz, Valerie Collins, Damian Heald, Mr Oliver McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Walley, Joan Colvile, Oliver Heath, Mr David McKechin, Ann Watts, Mr Dave Cox, Mr Geoffrey Heaton-Harris, Chris McKinnell, Catherine Weir, Mr Mike Crabb, Stephen Hemming, John Meacher, rh Mr Michael Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Crockart, Mike Henderson, Gordon Meale, Mr Alan Whitehead, Dr Alan Crouch, Tracey Hendry, Charles Mearns, Ian Wicks, rh Malcolm Davey, Mr Edward Herbert, rh Nick Michael, rh Alun Williams, Hywel Davies, David T. C. Hinds, Damian Miller, Andrew Williamson, Chris (Monmouth) Hoban, Mr Mark Mitchell, Austin Wilson, Phil Davies, Glyn Hollingbery, George Morden, Jessica Winnick, Mr David Davies, Philip Holloway, Mr Adam Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Davis, rh Mr David Hopkins, Kris Wood, Mike Morris, Grahame M. de Bois, Nick Horwood, Martin (Easington) Woodcock, John Dinenage, Caroline Howarth, Mr Gerald Mudie, Mr George Wright, David Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Howell, John Munn, Meg Tellers for the Ayes: Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hughes, Simon Murphy, rh Mr Jim Pete Wishart and Dorries, Nadine Huhne, rh Chris Murphy, rh Paul Lilian Greenwood Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy 851 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 852

Hunter, Mark Ollerenshaw, Eric Tyrie, Mr Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Huppert, Dr Julian Opperman, Guy Uppal, Paul Wiggin, Bill Hurd, Mr Nick Ottaway, Richard Vaizey, Mr Edward Williams, Roger Jackson, Mr Stewart Paice, Mr James Vara, Mr Shailesh Williams, Stephen James, Margot Parish, Neil Vickers, Martin Williamson, Gavin Javid, Sajid Patel, Priti Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Willott, Jenny Johnson, Gareth Pawsey, Mark Walker, Mr Robin Wilson, Mr Rob Johnson, Joseph Penning, Mike Wallace, Mr Ben Wollaston, Dr Sarah Jones, Andrew Penrose, John Walter, Mr Robert Wright, Jeremy Jones, Mr David Perry, Claire Ward, Mr David Wright, Simon Jones, Mr Marcus Phillips, Stephen Watkinson, Angela Yeo, Mr Tim Kawczynski, Daniel Pickles, rh Mr Eric Weatherley, Mike Young, rh Sir George Kelly, Chris Pincher, Christopher Webb, Steve Zahawi, Nadhim Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Poulter, Dr Daniel Wharton, James Kirby, Simon Prisk, Mr Mark Wheeler, Heather Tellers for the Noes: Kwarteng, Kwasi Pritchard, Mark White, Chris James Duddridge and Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pugh, Dr John Whittaker, Craig Norman Lamb Lancaster, Mark Raab, Mr Dominic Latham, Pauline Randall, rh Mr John Question accordingly negatived. Leadsom, Andrea Reckless, Mark Lee, Jessica Redwood, rh Mr John Amendment proposed: 12, page 1, line 7, leave out Lee, Dr Phillip Rees-Mogg, Jacob ‘fifth’ and insert ‘fourth’.—(Jonathan Edwards.) Lefroy, Jeremy Reevell, Simon Question put, That the amendment be made. Leigh, Mr Edward Reid, Mr Alan Leslie, Charlotte Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm The Committee divided: Ayes 246, Noes 313. Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Robathan, Mr Andrew Division No. 119] [9.53 pm Lewis, Brandon Robertson, Hugh Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Robertson, Mr Laurence AYES Lidington, Mr David Rogerson, Dan Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rosindell, Andrew Abbott, Ms Diane Cooper, rh Yvette Lloyd, Stephen Rudd, Amber Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Corbyn, Jeremy Lopresti, Jack Ruffley, Mr David Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Creagh, Mary Lord, Jonathan Russell, Bob Alexander, Heidi Creasy, Stella Loughton, Tim Rutley, David Ali, Rushanara Cryer, John Lumley, Karen Sanders, Mr Adrian Austin, Ian Cunningham, Alex Macleod, Mary Sandys, Laura Bailey, Mr Adrian Cunningham, Mr Jim Main, Mrs Anne Scott, Mr Lee Bain, Mr William Cunningham, Tony Maude, rh Mr Francis Selous, Andrew Balls, rh Ed Curran, Margaret May, rh Mrs Theresa Shannon, Jim Banks, Gordon Dakin, Nic Maynard, Paul Shapps, rh Grant Barron, rh Mr Kevin Danczuk, Simon McCartney, Karl Sharma, Alok Beckett, rh Margaret Darling, rh Mr Alistair McIntosh, Miss Anne Simmonds, Mark Bell, Sir Stuart David, Mr Wayne McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Simpson, David Benn, rh Hilary Davidson, Mr Ian McPartland, Stephen Simpson, Mr Keith Benton, Mr Joe Davies, Geraint McVey, Esther Skidmore, Chris Berger, Luciana De Piero, Gloria Menzies, Mark Smith, Miss Chloe Betts, Mr Clive Denham, rh Mr John Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Henry Blackman-Woods, Roberta Dobbin, Jim Miller, Maria Smith, Julian Blears, rh Hazel Dobson, rh Frank Mills, Nigel Smith, Sir Robert Blenkinsop, Tom Docherty, Thomas Milton, Anne Soubry, Anna Blomfield, Paul Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Doran, Mr Frank Moore, rh Michael Spencer, Mr Mark Brennan, Kevin Dowd, Jim Mordaunt, Penny Stephenson, Andrew Brown, Lyn Doyle, Gemma Morgan, Nicky Stevenson, John Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Dromey, Jack Morris, Anne Marie Stewart, Bob Brown, Mr Russell Dugher, Michael Morris, David Stewart, Iain Bryant, Chris Durkan, Mark Morris, James Stewart, Rory Buck, Ms Karen Eagle, Ms Angela Mosley, Stephen Streeter, Mr Gary Burden, Richard Eagle, Maria Mowat, David Stride, Mel Burnham, rh Andy Edwards, Jonathan Mulholland, Greg Stuart, Mr Graham Byrne, rh Mr Liam Efford, Clive Mundell, rh David Stunell, Andrew Campbell, Mr Alan Elliott, Julie Munt, Tessa Sturdy, Julian Campbell, Mr Gregory Ellman, Mrs Louise Murray, Sheryll Swales, Ian Campbell, Mr Ronnie Engel, Natascha Murrison, Dr Andrew Swayne, Mr Desmond Caton, Martin Esterson, Bill Neill, Robert Swinson, Jo Chapman, Mrs Jenny Evans, Chris Newmark, Mr Brooks Syms, Mr Robert Clark, Katy Farrelly, Paul Newton, Sarah Teather, Sarah Clarke, rh Mr Tom Field, rh Mr Frank Nokes, Caroline Timpson, Mr Edward Clwyd, rh Ann Fitzpatrick, Jim Norman, Jesse Tomlinson, Justin Coaker, Vernon Flello, Robert Nuttall, Mr David Tredinnick, David Coffey, Ann Flint, rh Caroline O’Brien, Mr Stephen Truss, Elizabeth Connarty, Michael Flynn, Paul Offord, Mr Matthew Turner, Mr Andrew Cooper, Rosie Fovargue, Yvonne 853 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill16 NOVEMBER 2010 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 854

Francis, Dr Hywel McGovern, Jim Umunna, Mr Chuka Williamson, Chris Gapes, Mike McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Vaz, rh Keith Wilson, Phil Gardiner, Barry McKechin, Ann Vaz, Valerie Winnick, Mr David Gilmore, Sheila McKinnell, Catherine Walley, Joan Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Glass, Pat Meacher, rh Mr Michael Watts, Mr Dave Wood, Mike Glindon, Mrs Mary Meale, Mr Alan Weir, Mr Mike Woodcock, John Goggins, rh Paul Mearns, Ian Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Wright, David Goodman, Helen Michael, rh Alun Whitehead, Dr Alan Tellers for the Ayes: Greatrex, Tom Miliband, rh David Wicks, rh Malcolm Pete Wishart and Green, Kate Miller, Andrew Williams, Hywel Lilian Greenwood Griffith, Nia Mitchell, Austin Gwynne, Andrew Morden, Jessica Hain, rh Mr Peter Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) NOES Hamilton, Mr David Morris, Grahame M. Adams, Nigel Davies, David T. C. Hamilton, Fabian (Easington) Afriyie, Adam (Monmouth) Hanson, rh Mr David Mudie, Mr George Aldous, Peter Davies, Glyn Harman, rh Ms Harriet Munn, Meg Andrew, Stuart Davies, Philip Harris, Mr Tom Murphy, rh Mr Jim Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Davis, rh Mr David Havard, Mr Dai Murphy, rh Paul Bacon, Mr Richard de Bois, Nick Healey, rh John Murray, Ian Bagshawe, Ms Louise Dinenage, Caroline Hendrick, Mark Nandy, Lisa Baker, Norman Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hermon, Lady Nash, Pamela Baker, Steve Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hillier, Meg O’Donnell, Fiona Baldry, Tony Dorries, Nadine Hilling, Julie Onwurah, Chi Barclay, Stephen Doyle-Price, Jackie Hodge, rh Margaret Osborne, Sandra Barker, Gregory Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Owen, Albert Baron, Mr John Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hoey, Kate Pearce, Teresa Barwell, Gavin Dunne, Mr Philip Hollobone, Mr Philip Percy, Andrew Bebb, Guto Ellis, Michael Hood, Mr Jim Perkins, Toby Beith, rh Sir Alan Ellwood, Mr Tobias Hopkins, Kelvin Phillipson, Bridget Bellingham, Mr Henry Elphicke, Charlie Hosie, Stewart Pound, Stephen Benyon, Richard Eustice, George Howarth, rh Mr George Qureshi, Yasmin Beresford, Sir Paul Evans, Graham Hunt, Tristram Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Berry, Jake Evans, Jonathan Illsley, Mr Eric Reed, Mr Jamie Bingham, Andrew Evennett, Mr David Irranca-Davies, Huw Reeves, Rachel Binley, Mr Brian Fabricant, Michael James, Mrs Siân C. Reynolds, Emma Birtwistle, Gordon Fallon, Michael Jamieson, Cathy Reynolds, Jonathan Blackman, Bob Farron, Tim Johnson, rh Alan Riordan, Mrs Linda Blackwood, Nicola Featherstone, Lynne Johnson, Diana Robertson, John Blunt, Mr Crispin Field, Mr Mark Jones, Graham Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Boles, Nick Foster, Mr Don Jones, Helen Rotheram, Steve Bone, Mr Peter Francois, rh Mr Mark Jones, Mr Kevan Roy, Mr Frank Bradley, Karen Freeman, George Jones, Susan Elan Roy, Lindsay Brake, Tom Freer, Mike Jowell, rh Tessa Ruane, Chris Bray, Angie Fullbrook, Lorraine Joyce, Eric Ruddock, rh Joan Brazier, Mr Julian Fuller, Richard Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Seabeck, Alison Bridgen, Andrew Garnier, Mr Edward Keeley, Barbara Shannon, Jim Brokenshire, James Garnier, Mark Keen, Alan Sharma, Mr Virendra Brooke, Annette Gauke, Mr David Kendall, Liz Sheerman, Mr Barry Browne, Mr Jeremy George, Andrew Khan, rh Sadiq Sheridan, Jim Bruce, Fiona Gibb, Mr Nick Lammy, rh Mr David Shuker, Gavin Buckland, Mr Robert Gilbert, Stephen Lavery, Ian Simpson, David Burley, Mr Aidan Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lazarowicz, Mark Skinner, Mr Dennis Burns, Conor Glen, John Leslie, Chris Slaughter, Mr Andy Burrowes, Mr David Goldsmith, Zac Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, rh Mr Andrew Burstow, Paul Goodwill, Mr Robert Lloyd, Tony Smith, Angela Burt, Lorely Gove, rh Michael Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Smith, Nick Byles, Dan Graham, Richard Love, Mr Andrew Smith, Owen Cairns, Alun Grant, Mrs Helen Lucas, Caroline Soulsby, Sir Peter Carmichael, Mr Alistair Gray, Mr James MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Spellar, rh Mr John Carmichael, Neil Grayling, rh Chris MacShane, rh Mr Denis Straw, rh Mr Jack Carswell, Mr Douglas Greening, Justine Mactaggart, Fiona Stringer, Graham Chishti, Rehman Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Mahmood, Mr Khalid Stuart, Ms Gisela Clappison, Mr James Griffiths, Andrew Mahmood, Shabana Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Clark, rh Greg Gyimah, Mr Sam Mann, John Tami, Mark Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Halfon, Robert Marsden, Mr Gordon Thomas, Mr Gareth Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hames, Duncan McCabe, Steve Thornberry, Emily Collins, Damian Hammond, rh Mr Philip McCann, Mr Michael Timms, rh Stephen Colvile, Oliver Hammond, Stephen McCarthy, Kerry Trickett, Jon Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hancock, Matthew McClymont, Gregg Turner, Karl Crockart, Mike Hancock, Mr Mike McFadden, rh Mr Pat Twigg, Derek Crouch, Tracey Hands, Greg McGovern, Alison Twigg, Stephen Davey, Mr Edward Harper, Mr Mark 855 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 16 NOVEMBER 2010 856

Harrington, Richard Mills, Nigel Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Walker, Mr Robin Harris, Rebecca Milton, Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Wallace, Mr Ben Hart, Simon Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stephenson, Andrew Walter, Mr Robert Harvey, Nick Moore, rh Michael Stevenson, John Ward, Mr David Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mordaunt, Penny Stewart, Bob Watkinson, Angela Hayes, Mr John Morgan, Nicky Stewart, Iain Weatherley, Mike Heald, Mr Oliver Morris, Anne Marie Stewart, Rory Webb, Steve Heath, Mr David Morris, David Streeter, Mr Gary Wharton, James Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, James Stride, Mel Wheeler, Heather Hemming, John Mosley, Stephen Stuart, Mr Graham White, Chris Henderson, Gordon Mowat, David Stunell, Andrew Whittaker, Craig Hendry, Charles Mulholland, Greg Sturdy, Julian Whittingdale, Mr John Hinds, Damian Mundell, rh David Swales, Ian Wiggin, Bill Hoban, Mr Mark Munt, Tessa Swayne, Mr Desmond Williams, Roger Hollingbery, George Murray, Sheryll Swinson, Jo Williams, Stephen Holloway, Mr Adam Murrison, Dr Andrew Syms, Mr Robert Williamson, Gavin Hopkins, Kris Neill, Robert Teather, Sarah Willott, Jenny Horwood, Martin Newmark, Mr Brooks Timpson, Mr Edward Wilson, Mr Rob Howarth, Mr Gerald Newton, Sarah Tomlinson, Justin Wollaston, Dr Sarah Howell, John Nokes, Caroline Tredinnick, David Wright, Jeremy Hughes, Simon Norman, Jesse Truss, Elizabeth Wright, Simon Huhne, rh Chris Nuttall, Mr David Turner, Mr Andrew Yeo, Mr Tim Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy O’Brien, Mr Stephen Tyrie, Mr Andrew Young, rh Sir George Hunter, Mark Offord, Mr Matthew Uppal, Paul Zahawi, Nadhim Huppert, Dr Julian Ollerenshaw, Eric Vaizey, Mr Edward Hurd, Mr Nick Opperman, Guy Vara, Mr Shailesh Tellers for the Noes: Jackson, Mr Stewart Ottaway, Richard Vickers, Martin James Duddridge and James, Margot Paice, Mr James Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Stephen Crabb Javid, Sajid Parish, Neil Johnson, Gareth Patel, Priti Question accordingly negatived. Johnson, Joseph Pawsey, Mark Jones, Andrew Penning, Mike To report progress and ask leave to sit again.—(Jeremy Jones, Mr David Penrose, John Wright.) Jones, Mr Marcus Perry, Claire The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. Kawczynski, Daniel Phillips, Stephen Kelly, Chris Pickles, rh Mr Eric Progress reported; Committee to sit again tomorrow. Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pincher, Christopher Kirby, Simon Poulter, Dr Daniel Kwarteng, Kwasi Prisk, Mr Mark PARLIAMENTARY CONTRIBUTORY PENSION Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pritchard, Mark FUND Lamb, Norman Pugh, Dr John Ordered, Lancaster, Mark Raab, Mr Dominic That Sir John Butterfill, Nick Harvey, Dr Howard Stoate and Latham, Pauline Randall, rh Mr John Lord Touhig be discharged as Managing Trustees of the Parliamentary Leadsom, Andrea Reckless, Mark Contributory Pension Fund and Mr Brian H. Donohoe, Richard Lee, Jessica Redwood, rh Mr John Harrington, David Mowat and John Thurso be appointed as Lee, Dr Phillip Rees-Mogg, Jacob Managing Trustees in pursuance of Section 1 of the Parliamentary Lefroy, Jeremy Reevell, Simon and other Pensions Act 1987.—(Mr Heath.) Leigh, Mr Edward Reid, Mr Alan Leslie, Charlotte Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Robathan, Mr Andrew HOUSE OF COMMONS MEMBERS’ FUND Lewis, Brandon Robertson, Hugh Ordered, Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Robertson, Mr Laurence That Nick Harvey, Eric Martlew, Dr Nick Palmer and Dr Howard Lidington, Mr David Rogerson, Dan Stoate be discharged as Managing Trustees of the House of Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rosindell, Andrew Commons Members’ Fund and Mr Brian H. Donohoe, Richard Lloyd, Stephen Rudd, Amber Harrington, David Mowat and John Thurso be appointed as Lopresti, Jack Ruffley, Mr David Managing Trustees in pursuance of Section 2 of the House of Lord, Jonathan Russell, Bob Commons Members’ Fund Act 1939. — (Mr. Heath.) Loughton, Tim Rutley, David Lumley, Karen Sanders, Mr Adrian Macleod, Mary Sandys, Laura Business without debate Main, Mrs Anne Scott, Mr Lee Maude, rh Mr Francis Selous, Andrew PUBLICATION OF INFORMATION ABOUT May, rh Mrs Theresa Shapps, rh Grant COMPLAINTS AGAINST MEMBERS Maynard, Paul Sharma, Alok McCartney, Karl Simmonds, Mark Motion made, McIntosh, Miss Anne Simpson, Mr Keith (1) That this House approves the Sixth Report of the Standards McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Skidmore, Chris and Privileges Committee, Session 2010-11, HC 577; and McPartland, Stephen Smith, Miss Chloe (2) That accordingly— McVey, Esther Smith, Henry a. The Commissioner may publish papers relating to complaints Menzies, Mark Smith, Julian rectified or not upheld since the beginning of financial year Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Sir Robert 2008-09 and information about complaints received and matters Miller, Maria Soubry, Anna under investigation since the beginning of financial year 2010-11. 857 Business without debate 16 NOVEMBER 2010 858

b. Standing Order No. 150 be amended, by inserting the Summertime (Scotland) following new paragraph after paragraph 10. “(10A) The Commissioner shall have leave to publish from Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House time to time— do now adjourn.—(Jeremy Wright.) (a) information and papers relating to— (i) matters resolved in accordance with paragraph (3) of this 10.11 pm order; and Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab): Thank you, (ii) complaints not upheld; Mr Deputy Speaker, for providing me with the opportunity and to raise an issue which, although not considered earth- (b) information about complaints received and matters under shattering in its political significance, tends to provoke investigation.”—(Mr Barron.) extremely lively debate on both sides. The question is whether it would be better for the UK as a whole to Hon. Members: Object. move away from Greenwich mean time and to adopt what is confusingly entitled single/double summertime. This would mean that instead of living in GMT, as we POWER OF THE PARLIAMENTARY currently are and have been since the end of last month, COMMISSIONER FOR STANDARDS TO we would have GMT+1 hour during the winter and INITIATE INVESTIGATIONS GMT+2 hours in the summer. Motion made, We have this debate every year in this country, and (1) That this House approves the Seventh Report of the the debate is particularly keenly followed in Scotland Standards and Privileges Committee, Session 2010-11, HC 578; where, among certain commentators and politicians, and there is always the temptation to indulge in the “poor (2) That accordingly Standing Order No. 150 be amended, by us” victim mentality. This was effectively illustrated last leaving out paragraph (2)(e) and inserting in its place: week when John Scott, the Conservative Member of the “(e) to investigate, if he thinks fit, specific matters which Scottish Parliament, asked the Scottish National party have come to his attention relating to the conduct of Members and to report to the Committee on Standards Minister, Fiona Hyslop, about the campaign to move to and Privileges or to an appropriate sub-committee single/double summertime, and said: thereof, unless the provisions of paragraph (3) apply. “Does she agree that Scottish children walking to school in (2A) In determining whether to investigate a specific matter darkness is not an acceptable price to pay for an extra hour of relating to the conduct of a Member the Commissioner shall sunlight in Sussex?”—[Scottish Parliament Official Report, have regard to whether in his view there is sufficient evidence that 11 November 2010; c. 30349.] the Code of Conduct or the rules relating to registration or There are times when I feel like holding my head in my declaration of interests may have been breached to justify taking hands and weeping for my nation, when such nonsense the matter further.”—(Mr Barron.) passes for intelligent discourse. First of all, there is the small point that it is not possible to create, reduce or Hon. Members: Object. ration the amount of daylight available to any part of our globe. That is a matter for God Almighty and the PETITION immutable laws of the physical universe. Secondly, there is a dangerous laziness in summoning Closure of Ryedale Ward, Malton Hospital forth the bogeyman of the Auld Enemy. It plays fast (North Yorkshire) and loose with the Union—it should be noted that Mr Scott’s party was once proud to describe itself as the 10.10 pm Scottish Conservative and Unionist party, though admittedly that was many years ago now—in the hope Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): of currying favour with a particularly aggrieved audience; The petition, which is from Dr Michael Lynch and in and there is always an aggrieved audience for such the name of 1,750 other petitioners, states: messages, which is why it is so dangerous to indulge The Petition of Dr Michael Lynch, Derwent Practice, Norton them by raising the spectre of a change which, it is Road, Malton, alleged, would have a beneficial effect on England while Declares that the Petitioner has a strong objection to the way disadvantaging Scotland. in which North Yorkshire and York Primary Care Trust have implemented the closure of Ryedale ward at Malton Hospital, I believe that claim to be nonsense. I also believe that without public consultation. there is much more support in Scotland for the change The Petitioner therefore requests that the House of Commons than has previously been the case. There have been urges the Government to take all possible steps to reinstate what various claims in support of a change to single/double is a highly valued and much needed facility at Malton Hospital summertime, some of which are harder to justify than for the population of Ryedale. others. The change would boost Scotland’s tourism And the Petitioner remains, etc. industry, we are told. It would help us to reduce our [P000868] greenhouse emissions, we would be a fitter and healthier nation, our streets would be safer to walk on, trade between Britain and Europe would increase, the lamb would lie down with the lion and Trident would be beaten into ploughshares. Actually, I made those last two up, but I hope that the point is made. The advantages claimed for the change are many, and they are valid, but I do not blame some of the public for being unconvinced by some of them. 859 Summertime (Scotland)16 NOVEMBER 2010 Summertime (Scotland) 860

Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): know well. He is a farmer in Ayrshire, so I was rather Does my hon. Friend appreciate that the fact that he surprised that he did not agree with some of his farming has given up his blog means that hon. Members and the colleagues. I am old enough to remember the last experiment wider public will not have an opportunity to see his in Scotland when I was a pupil. Will my hon. Friend say views being promoted on the internet, and will he something to reassure those parents who have heard perhaps reconsider giving up his blog so that he can tales of children going to school in the dark with the take forward this important issue? high-visibility armbands securely attached to the duffle coats and torches to get them to the end of their streets? Mr Harris: I am almost grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that point and intruding into personal grief. Mr Harris: That is a valid point. It will have to be met Now that I am no longer a blogger, I may consider head on by the supporters of the campaign, because going into politics. there is no doubt that in the 1968 trial, although road deaths throughout the vast majority of Scotland reduced Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): On a significantly, there was a small increase in the number of more serious note, the hon. Gentleman brings up an road deaths in the far north of Scotland. Of course that important issue that will be debated in a private Member’s has to be taken seriously, and I will say as much later Bill very shortly. May I commend what he is saying to on, but let us remember that when it comes to generating the House? I did some studies on this in Scotland and publicity on a particular campaign, it is far easier for found that the farmers who were once against this, on the media to publicise deaths and injuries on the road passionate and logical grounds, are now either neutral than to publicise deaths and injuries that were avoided. or in favour of it. They appreciate the extra hour in the We, as parents and—all of us, I think—as former evening, because many of them have diversified into the children, know that when children head out to school in tourism market where bed and breakfast and so forth the morning on, say, a 10-minute journey, they allow provide value. The other aspect is road deaths. A net almost exactly that amount of time for the journey. The decrease in road deaths would be a significant improvement return journey, however, is a different matter. It may were the clocks to be changed. I welcome the debate sound counter-intuitive to suggest that children will be that has been brought to the House tonight. in a bigger hurry to reach school in the morning than to get back home again in the afternoon, but it makes Mr Harris: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for perfect sense. Children adopt a more relaxed approach making those valid comments and trying to pre-empt as they head home, perhaps taking diversions to friends’ the points that I hope to make in the next few minutes. homes, popping into a shop or chatting with friends at It is up to the Lighter Later campaign and its many the school gate. supporters here in the Commons to make the case for We see exactly the same phenomenon in our working all the benefits that will accrue from pushing the clocks lives. I saw it as a Transport Minister and when I forward an hour, and they can do that during the debate worked in transport planning before being elected to on the private Member’s Bill promoted by the hon. the House. The evening rush hour is being extended Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris), who is in every year and becoming longer and longer, as flexible the Chamber. I will return to that issue shortly. hours mean more people leaving the office later, more As a father of young children, I approach this subject people perhaps heading to the pub or to the shops on from a particular direction. The other alleged benefits the way home, and evening buses and trains carrying that I mentioned earlier notwithstanding, it is the effect the same total number of commuters on their return on Scotland’s road safety record, particularly as it affects journeys as they did in the morning rush hour, but over children, that most concerns me. We already know that a significantly longer period. road accidents are more likely to occur in the evening However, too much time in this debate—too much peak hour than in the morning. One will often hear the attention—is focused on the journey to and from school. protest that drivers are not fully alert first thing in the In any one year, children in Scotland spend as much morning when they drive to work, and are more alert as time travelling between home and their friends’ homes, they return. I do not believe this to be the case, and the and walking to and from various places of recreation, evidence is indeed to the contrary. as they do travelling to and from school. Indeed, during The 1998 study by Transport Research estimated that the very darkest mornings in December and early January, a move away from GMT would lead to an overall children are on holiday from school and do not have to reduction in road deaths and serious injuries of 0.7% in make those journeys at those early times, but they still Scotland alone. Based on the figures for 2009, that make journeys later in the day, when the light is fading would mean 20 fewer deaths and serious injuries on and they are far more at risk from passing cars. Scotland’s roads, and 30 fewer casualties across all categories of severity. Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Will my hon. Friend John Scott MSP said that Scottish children should consider the remarks of the former Prime Minister, our not have to go to school in darkness. Mr. Scott represents right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Ayr, and I grew up in that same county, and I know that Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), who, at a regional Cabinet by December children there will be doing precisely that meeting in my constituency earlier this year, told a anyway. Dawn can arrive after classes have begun. representative of the tourism industry that he saw real benefits of £3.5 billion in the move that my hon. Friend Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- advocates and thought that there were merits in the idea op): I thank my hon. Friend for giving way because he of a three-year trial? I hope that my hon. Friend will has been very generous with his time. I note the points feel that those comments are helpful to his campaign in that he makes in relation to John Scott MSP, whom I Scotland. 861 Summertime (Scotland)16 NOVEMBER 2010 Summertime (Scotland) 862

Mr Harris: My right hon. Friend will know that I set Mr MacNeil: To return to the substantive point and great store by the comments of our right hon. Friend away from the hon. Gentleman’s hyperbole, does he the former Prime Minister. If my right hon. Friend the support the shorter, more symmetrical period, or not? Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) will forgive me, however, I must say that it is one of those claims that Mr Harris: I will not belabour this particular point. I the public will have some difficulty accepting. Politicians am speaking in favour of a move to single/double throw such figures about all the time—£3.5 billion here, summertime. I hope that the hon. Gentleman understands £10 billion there—but they do not have a great deal of the meaning of that. meaning. Until we have a proper, scientific analysis of all the evidence, it will be quite fair for people to remain Mr Ellwood: There is a serious point here. We have sceptical, but I shall come back to that issue, because 53 days on one side of the winter solstice and about the private Member’s Bill deals with it. 100 days on the other side. It is not symmetrical, and therefore this proposal would make sense. I ask SNP Scotland’s road traffic record is poorer than the records Members to allow the Bill to go through to Committee for England and Wales. Scots are 27% more likely to stage so that such detail can be debated. It needs to be suffer serious injury as a result of a road accident than given more time so that the country can understand the our compatriots south of the border. That is partly a detail instead of the Bill being kicked into touch by simple consequence of lower car ownership—again, a talking it out on a Friday, which happens so often. I counter-intuitive argument, as one might expect fewer hope that the SNP will listen, wake up to what the cars to mean fewer road accidents. However, 20% more nation is calling for, and support this proposal so that journeys are made on foot in Scotland than in England, we can have a debate and see it through to fruition. meaning that Scottish pedestrians are more numerous, pro rata, and therefore more at risk. Mr Harris: The problem with such debates, in most I spoke rather blithely earlier of the other benefits cases, is that various Members raise specific and detailed that might—might—accrue to Scotland if the changes technical objections which prevent the progress of the take place, and I wish to place on the record my sincere Bill and which, nine times out of 10, are intended to do belief that those benefits would be real, if unquantifiable so. The Bill promoted by the hon. Member for Castle in advance. Of course, it would benefit Scottish industry Point is before the House, and I hope that the House if our trading hours were more in line with Europe’s. will make a decision in due course. Incidentally, those Scots and some English who say that Contrary to some rather excitable critics—yes, I am Scotland should stick with GMT even if England chooses looking at you, John Scott MSP—the Daylight Saving to move to single/double summertime should remember Bill would not implement any permanent change to that Scotland’s biggest trading partner is also our closest single/double summertime. It would simply oblige the neighbour within the Union, and such a move would Government initially to conduct a cross-departmental indeed be damaging to Scottish commerce. analysis of the potential costs and benefits of advancing There are arguments in favour of the premise that time by one hour for all or part of the year. Only at that our tourism industry, our energy consumption, our point, and entirely dependent on the results of that community safety and our participation in healthy activities analysis, would a three-year experiment of single/double would all benefit from a move to single/double summertime. summertime be triggered. Crucially, if the analysis were to conclude that the anticipated benefits were unlikely to be realised, the three-year pilot would not go ahead. Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) Given the very sensible caution outlined in the Bill—I (SNP): If the hon. Gentleman is a strong believer in congratulate the hon. Lady on promoting it—it is very putting the clocks forward an hour, surely he realises difficult to see how any serious objection to it could be that those benefits would be magnified if we put the maintained, even by those strongly opposed to the clocks forward two hours, three hours, four hours, five scrapping of GMT. hours or whatever, but then we might see the nub of the problem and exactly what was being foisted on some I may be wrong in my support for single/double people. Does he agree that in a spirit of conciliation, summertime. The critics of the Lighter Later campaign therefore, we need a shorter, symmetrical period either may be wrong. Even—this is extremely far-fetched, I side of midwinter? Rather than changing the clocks confess—John Scott MSP might be wrong. But until we seven weeks before midwinter and 14 weeks afterwards, properly analyse all the available data, we will never as we do at the moment, why do we not have a five or know. Instead, we will have the same old arguments, six-week period either side of midwinter? We would twice a year, every year, when the clock changes come then shorten wintertime by half and probably reach a around in October and March. consensus that would be welcomed throughout the UK. I have called for this debate because I think that it is right that the Scotland Office sets out its own policy Mr Harris: I am not sure what the Gaelic is for “coming position. It has considerable influence in the Government at you out of left field”, but that intervention rather fits and could, I imagine, scupper the hon. Lady’s Bill if it the description. On the hon. Gentleman’s first proposal so chose. I intend to be present on 3 December when the about moving summertime more and more hours forward, Bill has its Second Reading. I hope that the Minister if he wishes to bring a Bill to that effect to this House, I will also be present to support it so that we can draw a will be happy to express my opinion. line under this debate once and for all. Inevitably, and rightly, there will be detractors— [Interruption]—as we can hear. Fair enough—there 10.28 pm should be a public debate, but one based on facts, not The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland on the exhumation of the English as evil bogeymen (David Mundell): I commend the hon. Member for aiming to steal the sun from the Scottish sky. Glasgow South (Mr Harris) for Glasgow South on 863 Summertime (Scotland)16 NOVEMBER 2010 Summertime (Scotland) 864 securing tonight’s Adjournment debate. Perhaps his tomorrow in London would be at 8.24 am, and on much lamented retirement from blogging has left his Christmas eve it would be at 8.50 am. May I suggest nights, light or dark, free for more exciting and productive that even Londoners would find that objectionable? activities such as this debate. However, given the lateness of the hour, he can be confident that Scotland’s nocturnal David Mundell: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. cyber-nats will be following our every word. Indeed, the objections are not just from Scotland. I respect the hon. Gentleman’s views and his support My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has set out for the introduction of what is generally known as clearly the position of the Government as a whole, double summertime, which would see the United Kingdom including the Scotland Office: no change can be made using central European time. He is right to say that not without the consensus of the whole United Kingdom, everybody in Scotland is against such a change, but he including Northern Ireland as well as Scotland. There should acknowledge that most are against it, as the can be no specific policy in relation to Scotland, because Secretary of State for Scotland has made clear to colleagues consensus across the UK is the key factor. Let me make in the Government. It is for those supporting change it clear that, as the hon. Member for Glasgow South to make and win their case across the UK, including alluded to, the Government are unequivocally opposed in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and that has not to any differentiated time zone for Scotland. happened. Mr Bradshaw: Why has the Prime Minister—like the Mr Harris: The Minister has just said that the majority leader of the Liberal Democrats, I am afraid—changed of Scots do not support the measure. On what evidence his position on that issue since the general election? He does he base that assumption? said quite clearly before the election, including to tourism representatives in the south-west, that he favoured the David Mundell: The Scotland Office has carried out change. Indeed, the hon. Member for Bournemouth consultation on the Bill, both formal and informal, East (Mr Ellwood), then the shadow Tourism Minister, which supports the view that the majority of Scots do explicitly said that he favoured the move. Is this just not support the measure at this time. another broken promise by the coalition?

Mr Harris: I am grateful to the Minister for giving David Mundell: I certainly accept that the former way a second time, given how long I took over my shadow Tourism Minister is a powerful advocate of the comments. He said that a majority of Scots do not case, but what the Prime Minister said then, and what support the change, but he is now talking about consultation he says now, is that we welcome an informed debate and qualitative research. If he is to maintain that a in all parts of the UK. As my right hon. Friend the majority of Scots oppose the change, he has to come to Chancellor might say, on this issue we are all in it the Dispatch Box with evidence of quantitative research together or not at all. by a polling organisation and the Scotland Office. Does Mr Ellwood: I am aware that my hon. Friend has he have that information? been following this issue carefully, but I would ask that his Department show some leadership and a little bit David Mundell: Quite the contrary.The hon. Gentleman more interest, rather than just saying, “Oh, it’s for the and those who support the campaign have to win the others to make the case.” There is definite interest in the argument with the public in Scotland, with the body matter, because Scotland and the entire country can politic and with civic society. benefit. It is time that the Scotland Office considered the matter in detail and carried out an overt study, Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD): Just to clear up the issue, rather than one that they are not willing to publish, and will the Minister agree to place in the Library all the then supported a three-year experiment. There would information to which he has referred, which enabled be a massive benefit to Britain, including Scotland, and him to make the claims that he has just made? I hope that the Department will embrace that rather than have a laissez-faire attitude. David Mundell: As the hon. Gentleman will understand, it is not possible to set out that information in the way David Mundell: I do not accept that it is a laissez-faire that he seeks. What is possible is for those who support attitude to reflect opinion in Scotland within Government. the change, such as the hon. Member for Glasgow We should welcome the debate and challenge those South, to make their case and win the argument with people who feel strongly about the matter to go out and the people of Scotland. He was very careful not to say win that debate in Scotland. It is quite clear that they that he was speaking on behalf of people in Scotland, have not yet done so. I agree that this has to be a factual because he knows that there is not majority support for debate and that it does not have to be an emotional one. the change in Scotland at this time. Rather than argue Even if we move to double summertime, it will not about polling evidence, which all of us in the body of mean that the United Kingdom has any more daylight Scottish politics know is amazingly unreliable, he should hours. concentrate on winning the argument in Scotland if it is what he truly believes. Rebecca Harris (Castle Point) (Con): Is the Minister aware that the last three opinion polls conducted in Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): I appreciate that the Scotland show that a majority of the Scottish public are debate is about how Scotland feels, but does the Minister in favour? I can give him that evidence tomorrow morning. accept that there is a spurious argument that the only objections to the policy are from Scotland? In reality, David Mundell: I have that evidence, but as my hon. they will come from all over the UK. I have just checked, Friend will know, the answer is determined by the and found out that if we had the policy in place, sunrise question, and many people will say “yes” when they are 865 Summertime (Scotland)16 NOVEMBER 2010 Summertime (Scotland) 866

[David Mundell] South wants to move to, and we would welcome that in this Parliament and in the Scottish Parliament. asked whether they like lighter evenings, but they do not Secondly, a consensus within Scotland will need to be necessarily take on board the full consequences of all built, to convince the body politic, Civic Scotland and the issues in the survey.Although I accept and acknowledge the Scottish public to support them. The hon. Member that opinion may be changing in Scotland, I do not for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) might believe that the majority of people in Scotland support tell me to the contrary, but I was unaware that the this change. Scottish Labour party in the Scottish Parliament supported such a measure and had promoted it by speaking actively Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil: Might it not be an idea in its favour. I might have been wrong in that regard. for those parliamentarians who are passionate advocates The hon. Member for Glasgow South highlighted the of change to resign and force a by-election on this very important issue of road safety and made some telling issue and test the opinion themselves? points. Thankfully, the UK already has one of the best road safety records in Europe, but the UK and Scottish David Mundell: That is another interesting suggestion. Governments recognise that we can always do more. I was going to agree with the hon. Gentleman’s point The introduction of central European time is not a about the change in wintertime and the fact that the panacea in that regard. Road safety experts acknowledge change in October is so much closer to the shortest day that other initiatives could have a greater impact. Indeed, than the change in the spring, and that is a live issue even proponents of change acknowledge that the change that people mentioned to me when I was in the Western may result in more road injuries in Scotland during the Isles 10 days ago. We must also recognise that for people morning peak. living in the Western Isles and the most northerly parts of Scotland, such a change would have a significant Mr Ellwood: I have a lot of respect for my hon. impact on their lives in winter when daylight would Friend personally and professionally, but I question not come before 10 am, and that cannot be just glibly some of the facts that he is coming out with, because set aside. according to the statistics that I have seen, road deaths fell in Scotland during the 1968 to 1971 experiment. Mr Foster: Given that the Minister is very keen for The statistics and analysis suggest that if the experiment there to be more accurate data on this information and were repeated, road deaths would fall again. I do not on having an informed debate, will he make it clear that know where he gets his data from, but he needs to share he and his Department will support the Bill’s getting a them with us if we are to have a full and frank debate. Second Reading, so that that further research and informed debate can take place? David Mundell: I recognise the passion with which my hon. Friend speaks, but his contributions have not necessarily been made from an objective viewpoint in David Mundell: That will be a matter for the Department relation to Scotland. The Government want and welcome for Business, Innovation and Skills during the course of an informed debate. As has been clearly stated, hon. the debate, which is to be held on 3 December. I hope Members will have the chance to debate this issue on that all those Members with an active interest in this 3 December on Second Reading of the Daylight Saving matter will ensure that the debate explores all the issues Bill, which is a private Member’s Bill sponsored by my that cannot be explored in the short time that we have hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca available this evening, and that those people who promote Harris). They need no encouragement from me to take the view will continue to gather the evidence that they that opportunity. believe will support their conviction that the benefits of lighter evenings would outweigh the costs of darker 10.41 pm mornings. Judging by his contribution, that is the sort House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order of informed debate that the hon. Member for Glasgow No. 9(7)). 189WH 16 NOVEMBER 2010 Policing (West Midlands) 190WH

“As more than 80 per cent of our budget goes on staffing costs Westminster Hall it is inevitable that we will lose jobs. The funding cuts will be phased over four years, with a disproportionate impact on years one and two.” Tuesday 16 November 2010 Clearly, the west midlands, including my borough of Walsall, will suffer a lot as a result of what the Government have stated.

[MR GRAHAM BRADY in the Chair] Mr Cunningham: My hon. Friend is spot on, and I shall probably come to that point later. Policing (West Midlands) A July 2010 report by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting constabulary stated: be now adjourned.—(Mr Dunne.) “A cut beyond 12% would almost certainly reduce police availability”. 9.30 am There is concern about the future of specialist police units, such as those for domestic crime and child abuse, Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): It is a which are no longer considered front line by the coalition pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. Government. If we look at the regional impact, West You and I have known each other for many years, and Midlands police will be unfairly and disproportionately at one stage we had offices not far from each other. hit by the 20% cut to its police budget, due to its higher There is concern in the west midlands and in its seven reliance on central funding: 83% of its funding comes districts, but people should realise that that is against a from central Government, whereas only 17% is generated background of economic difficulties that started with from council tax. Those cuts go way beyond what can Lehman Brothers in America, and that should always be achieved through efficiency savings and better be borne in mind when casting aspersions. At present, procurement. Some predict that West Midlands police even with the situation that the Government inherited, could lose more than 1,200 officers and a similar number we still have our triple A credit rating throughout the of police staff over four years. In real terms, it is international monetary system, which tells us that although expected that 400 police officers and 400 police staff there were financial difficulties they were not on the will lose their jobs by March. In comparison, leafy scale that the present Government portray. Some of the Surrey, which has a lower crime rate, will get a better deal. measures that the Government have recently taken are unnecessary to deal with a situation that we had planned Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): My to deal with over the next four or five years. It is not hon. Friend has made a really good point. It is very generally realised that we had about 14 years to pay off likely that Ministers will say, “Well, west midlands is our debts. It should also be borne in mind that when getting exactly the same impact as everywhere else,” but Labour came to power in 1997, 50p in every pound was he has made it clear that that is not the case. In reality, spent on paying off the national debt. That tends to be the impact on police officers, police civilian staff and forgotten; we had a two-year pause. However, the purpose services will be disproportionate. One thing we will be of this debate is very much to discuss the impact in looking for from Ministers today is that they address terms of police cuts in the west midlands. the actual cuts that will take place in the west midlands, The west midlands is a vital area for the British not just the notional ones. economy.This Government have taken a series of measures that have affected the region, where one in 10 people is Mr Cunningham: My hon. Friend makes a very unemployed. We have had cuts in education, and we interesting point. Anyone who works in local government, have only to look around the seven districts to see what as I have, can tell us, as can experience, that an arbitrary has happened as a result of the cuts in education capital cut across the board can be very punitive and programmes and in universities. Against that background, disproportionate. What we have here a punitive and when trying to understand where the Government are disproportionate measure, because like is not being taking the country, one is sometimes puzzled. compared with like. That is one of the major problems For the purposes of today’s debate, we should bear in with the proposals. mind that figures released in July this year show current In the west midlands city of Coventry, as many as police officer numbers at 143,734, which is nearly 17,000 40 police officer jobs will be lost over the next four years. more than in 1997; the Labour Government also introduced These are only rough figures, and I am sure that they 16,000 police community support officers. Our manifesto can be changed and contradicted, but we have the guaranteed central funding to maintain those record resources only to make some rough guesses about what police numbers. However, in a statement delivered by is likely to happen. A combined total of about 29 police the present Chancellor, it was announced that central officers and staff could lose their jobs in each west Government police funding will be reduced by 20% in midlands constituency before March, according to the real terms by 2014-15, which will have a direct impact chief constable, Chris Sims. If we look at the figures for on policing on local streets. police officers in Coventry, in 1997 there were 628; today, there are 843. That shows that the previous Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): It is of Government certainly tackled some of the crime problems interest that Chris Sims, the chief constable of West in Coventry. Midlands police, has stated that, for his force, Let me take hon. Members back to 1997 and the “20 per cent equates to over £100m.” years prior to that, which I certainly remember. I am When asked about job losses, he said: sure that my right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry 191WH Policing (West Midlands)16 NOVEMBER 2010 Policing (West Midlands) 192WH

[Mr Jim Cunningham] It is important that we build on inter-agency working, because a lot of problems in the west midlands, including North East (Mr Ainsworth) will substantiate what I say antisocial behaviour, are related to health inequalities next. During the Thatcher years, we had a problem in and deprivation. We need to ensure that the police in Coventry with youths terrifying neighbourhoods. My the west midlands continue to work effectively in right hon. Friend experienced that in his constituency, partnership, because the nature of policing in the west and I am sure that he will recall that we had a number of midlands is changing to deal with some of the underlying meetings with the then Home Office Minister Lord problems we face. Ferrers and my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), who eventually became Home Mr Cunningham: The hon. Gentleman makes an Secretary, on issues such as witness protection. In those interesting point, but I do not see how cutting police days, in line with the record of the previous Conservative numbers makes their working with agencies more effective. Government, people were left to their own devices. I The hon. Gentleman will have to work that one out for remember visiting some flats in Stoke Aldermoor, which himself. was in my constituency at the time, and seeing that old people there had steel doors for protection. We did not Mr Ainsworth: The hon. Member for Halesowen and have an adequate witness protection scheme at that Rowley Regis (James Morris) makes the same claim as time; as a consequence, old people, or anyone, giving the Home Secretary—that, in some way, there will be no evidence had to face the person they had accused in the impact on the street as a result of the cuts. It is nonsense anteroom before they went into court. They were terrified. to say that we will be able to get police out of the back If they did give evidence but the culprit got away with it, office and on to the streets and that we will be able to they got a second visit. That gives us a rough idea of cut the number of police by as much as is proposed for what things were like before 1997, and we should not the west midlands without there being an impact on our forget that. neighbourhoods. That is ridiculous—it is nonsense. Surely My right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry my hon. Friend agrees. North East will also remember that we heavily lobbied Ministers to bring in antisocial behaviour orders, which Mr Cunningham: It has to be. That is why— everyone—certainly everyone on the Government [Interruption.] Benches—describes as discredited now. At the time, however, they came as a welcome relief to those families James Morris: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? and neighbourhoods, and I am sure that my right hon. Friend will confirm that. Mr Cunningham: Hold on. Calm down. That is why I deliberately described the situation Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): My prior to 1997, to illustrate what can happen when cuts hon. Friend is absolutely right to recall that the entire of such magnitude are imposed. antisocial behaviour agenda was led in large part from Coventry, as a result of some of the very serious problems Mr Winnick rose— that we had on one or two council estates. People were systematically intimidating others and believing that Mr Cunningham: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman “on their manor” they could do what they liked. The and then to my hon. Friend. ASBO agenda was all about breaking the power of those local thugs to impose themselves on the James Morris: Chris Sims is a sensible and intelligent neighbourhood in which they lived. police officer. He has reiterated that, despite his resourcing challenges, it is perfectly possible for him to deliver the Mr Cunningham: I thank my hon. Friend for same levels of neighbourhood policing, even in the substantiating my argument. challenging situation that he faces. Even the West Midlands Another measure introduced locally in Coventry was Police Federation has said that it thinks there can be area co-ordination, which, for example, allowed the better allocation of police resources to maintain levels council to appoint wardens, who in turn got involved in of neighbourhood policing. local communities, won their confidence and gave them the confidence to go to the police if there were serious Mr Cunningham: I have known a number of chiefs of problems. Right hon. and hon. Members may remember police in the west midlands over the years and they will that, at that time, a lot of members of the public were all tell the same story. It depends on what Government reluctant to talk to the police because they were intimidated they are dealing with. and knew exactly what would happen to them. It is worthwhile mentioning such things to encapsulate Mr Winnick: Would not it help the case for policing what happened before the Labour Government got in the west midlands if Conservative Members joined anywhere. These days it is easy to rubbish everything us, instead of just echoing Government policy? From that we did, but, on the contrary, we did a heck of a lot time to time when my party’s Government was in office to make life easier for people in some neighbourhoods. I criticised them when I considered it appropriate, as did other hon. Friends. New Conservative Members James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): may take that lesson on board if they wish. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, despite the challenges My constituents complain that there are not sufficient to do with resources, effective policing is not necessarily police officers. In certain places in my constituency, a function of absolute police numbers? The police—even which is not unique by any means in terms of antisocial West Midlands Police Federation—would accept that. behaviour, residents want to see a physical police presence. 193WH Policing (West Midlands)16 NOVEMBER 2010 Policing (West Midlands) 194WH

The cuts that are coming will make that situation even I hope that the Minister will answer the following worse. It is regrettable that West Midlands police will be questions. How will he explain the regional unfairness so adversely affected as a result of Government policy. of the cuts to inner-city families in our constituencies, who see low-crime areas such as Surrey get a better Mr Cunningham: Not only that, but areas that are deal? How will he assure the most vulnerable in our used to seeing a high police profile, including some society—victims of child abuse and domestic violence—that more affluent areas, will now be badly affected by the they will continue to be prioritised when they are no measures. People in those areas will experience what longer considered front-line cases? Will he acknowledge people in the deprived areas that my hon. Friend is the direct correlation between Labour’s investment in talking about have experienced. We accept that some of police officer numbers since 1997 and the 35% reduction the newer Government Members are enthusiastic, but in west midlands crime? How does he intend to ensure those of us with the benefit of experience know that, public confidence in the police service, while jeopardising once they have seen the policies unfold and seen the their basic safety and security? impact at the sharp edge, they will really squirm. Consumer Focus research has shown that rank and file police officers cannot do their job as well without Richard Burden: I should like to return to the point good community relations or the active support and made by the hon. Member for Halesowen and Rowley co-operation of the public. Has the Minister considered Regis, because it is important that we are all sensitive to the implications of fewer officers on neighbourhood the position of a chief constable. A chief constable watch groups, and the work of PCSOs? Has the Minister cannot get involved in political debates. It would be considered efficiency savings in the day-to-day operations wrong of the chief constable for the west midlands to of the police force before axing jobs? How can our do so. He will inevitably do everything that he humanly police officers be expected to continue to protect and can to safeguard services, because he is an excellent serve people in the west midlands to the same standard, chief constable—there is no doubt about that. But the when they have the burden of even more paperwork mathematics are clear. The reorganisation—the chief as a result of having fewer office staff? constable’s undertaking Paragon—was founded on a That is as much as I can say at the moment, because solid number of neighbourhood police officers, backed my hon. Friends want to contribute to this debate. It up by police community support officers, with specialist was remiss of me not to declare an interest at the start teams at force level dealing with issues such as child of the debate, Mr Brady. Sorry about that. abuse and domestic violence. If a chunk is taken out of that, something will have to give, whether that is the Several hon. Members rose— front line, or specialist work, or a police officer turning up at the community meetings held in all our constituencies Mr Graham Brady (in the Chair): Order. Four or five and making the difference between their being successful Back-Bench Members want to contribute and we have and less successful. Unless all parties recognise that, we about 50 minutes. If everybody is reasonably brief, we will be doing our constituents a disservice. should get everybody in. Mr Cunningham: My hon. Friend is right. I could not put it any better. We have always to remember that a 9.49 am chief constable is a professional person and that, as far Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): I am as his job goes, he has no political opinions. If he is a proud to represent Erdington. It is a community that is good professional, he will make do with what he has, rich in people, even if it one of the 10 poorest in Britain. which is often not adequate, to say the least, and it will It includes the great communities of Kingstanding, be less adequate as a result of the new measures. Tyburn, Castle Vale, Pype Hayes, Stockland Green— It is not generally appreciated that Warwickshire including Slade road—and Erdington itself. The area police often relies on West Midlands police to come to has seen huge investment under a Labour Government its assistance when needed. For example, the West Midlands with more police officers on the beat being supported police anti-terrorism squad will be involved from time by more police community support officers in the streets to time in dealing with potential terrorist activities in of Erdington. It is a community that, like the rest of the Warwickshire. So Warwickshire has not escaped; the west midlands, has seen a 35% fall in recorded crime. cuts will have an impact on the police force there. It is Over the past 15 years, it has seen an immensely welcome not my job to put the case for Warwickshire police, but development—community policing. I remember attending it is my job to point out the impact on that police force the Castle Vale tasking group and seeing excellent as well. The results of the cuts will not be confined to engagement between the police service and the local the west midlands; they will flow across the borders. community on how they would deal with problems The coalition has not chosen to prioritise the police. together, including that of antisocial behaviour. Since 1997, Labour added 1,423 police officers to the However, if the community is safer, there are serious west midlands force, but that increase will be all but residual problems. The police are a friend of Erdington, obliterated by the predicted cut of 1,200 officers over but they are also firm on crime and antisocial behaviour. the next four years. The House of Commons Library— Earlier this year, there was an upsurge in crime in nobody would dispute these figures, would they?—estimates Stockland Green. I met with the chief superintendent, that crime in the west midlands has fallen by 35% the admirable Jim Andronov. He deployed an immense between 1997-98 and 2008-09. Once again, the burden effort, including the use of intelligence, and as a consequence of the cuts will fall on those families who rely on these a number of charges were brought. Although there are services the most—inner-city families. Anybody who still problems, it was a model of the police responding lives in the inner cities knows that. to the concerns of the community. 195WH Policing (West Midlands)16 NOVEMBER 2010 Policing (West Midlands) 196WH

Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): The hon. are reduced, they will have less time on the beat and less Gentleman makes an important point. That was of the support they need to do their job, and therefore intelligence-led policing; it was not about flooding the more time will be spent doing paperwork. That in turn area with a large number of police. Labour Members will lead to less detection, as I am sure the hon. Member are making a direct correlation between numbers of for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) knows from his police and falling crime, but the two do not necessarily own experience. It will affect the work that goes on in match up. Many countries have larger police numbers the back room by way of intelligence gathering and but higher rates of crime. It is more important to use sifting. There will certainly be more paperwork, including the number of police officers efficiently.The hon. Gentleman more P45s for police officers and PCSOs. mentioned the situation in 1997. In 1997, I was a The impact on the west midlands, as highlighted by serving police officer in Lothian and Borders police, so my hon. Friends, will be disproportionately harsh. Whereas I come with a certain amount of experience. The level of 51% of Surrey’s police service comes from the central patronising talk directed at new Members by those in Government grant, the figure for the midlands is 83%. the Labour party who say that we are just parroting Will the Minister acknowledge that there is a major phrases that we are given is poor. problem for the midlands, and that the consequences of a 20% cut across the board nationwide will hit the Jack Dromey: With the greatest of respect, the hon. midlands disproportionately hard? Gentleman may once have been a police officer, but he is clearly not in contact with the modern police service. I am proud of my local association with the police Locally, the police told me that they had the time and service, and I know that it will do its best. Chris Sims is resources, including front-line officers backed by support an admirable chief constable. However, serving officers and intelligence, to tackle quickly and effectively a and PCSOs have said to me in no uncertain terms that problem that was giving rise to serious concern in the simple realities will flow from what the Government are Stockland Green area. Precisely because the community proposing. That is not least because, as one police welcomed such an initiative by the police, real anger is officer said to me, history tells us that the combination now being expressed about what is happening. of soaring unemployment—it is estimated that up to 400,000 people will lose their jobs in the midlands—and Mr Jim Cunningham: On the point raised by the hon. falling police numbers will lead to more crime, less-safe Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart), I do not communities and criminals who are more likely to get think we are being patronising; we are passing on away with it. experience. More importantly, the hon. Gentleman may In conclusion, the first duty of any Government is have been a serving police officer, but he was not the the safety and security of our people and our communities. chief constable. The chief constable has the total overview It is absolutely wrong for the Government to put at risk and knows the picture. It is easy for someone lower the safety of the people of Erdington. There is real fear down the ranks to have a perception about something. about what will flow from the cuts unless the Government change course. Will the Minister be prepared to change Jack Dromey: I am guided by what serving police course? officers tell me about their concerns, including what they predict will happen over the next stages. I will come 9.58 am to that in a moment. There is real anger because of a 20% cut to the police Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): I service and the consequences of that cut. Is it true that will be as brief as I can because some of the points that 2,500 jobs will go in the West Midlands police service I wanted to make have been raised. However, I would over the next four years? Is it true that 1,200 police like to reiterate one or two of them. As my hon. Friend officers will go? Is it true that there will be 40 fewer the Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) police officers in each of the 10 constituencies in has just pointed out, the way that the cuts are being Birmingham? Are numbers of police community support brought in is disproportionate. I asked the Home Secretary officers already being cut back? An excellent PCSO about the underlying reason for that, and I got no came up to me on Saturday in Erdington high street and answer whatsoever, despite the fact that she claimed said, “Jack, there used to be six of us. Are they now that she had prior notice of my question. Why are the going to cut it down to three?” Will the Minister confirm high-crime areas being disproportionately hit in comparison those facts? They are undeniable truths. with low-crime areas? The Minister knows that to be the case because of the proportion of policing that is James Morris: Is it not also an undeniable truth that paid for by grant. The cuts have been structured in such even if there had been a Labour Government, there a way that the high-crime areas—including the west would still have been 20% cuts in policing? Will the hon. midlands, which has bigger problems although it is not Gentleman enlighten us as to how he would have gone the only such area—are being disproportionally hit by about implementing the cuts that would have been the way that the Government are making the cuts. I introduced anyway? thought that we were all in this together. Why are people not being affected in proportion to the size of Jack Dromey: I will come to the contrast between the the problem that they experience? pledges made at the general election in a moment—they It is disingenuous to say that there will be no cuts in are revealing. During the general election, the Liberal the front-line service as a result of the measures being Democrats said that there would be 3,000 more police taken. There is no perfect organisation, but the West officers. They did not add, “On the dole.”The Conservative Midlands police service is recognised as one of the more party said that there would be less paperwork. The efficient in the country. We are being borne down on all reality is that if numbers of police officers and PCSOs the time in terms of efficiency and pushing harder and 197WH Policing (West Midlands)16 NOVEMBER 2010 Policing (West Midlands) 198WH further to get more police on the front line. That needs police for efficiencies, as we have to push every area of to continue under any regime, but I want to challenge public service for efficiencies, but something that has a Conservative Members. They will find over time that of major impact on crime levels is the level of unemployment, all the organisations that they deal with as Members of and unemployment levels are about to go up considerably. Parliament, the police—more than any other organisation, We shall therefore see more people without work and in my experience—are under-resourced in terms of clerical fewer police officers to protect our communities. There support and back-up. When we write a letter to a police is an inevitability about that, and this is where Chris officer, we wind up with front-line officers having to Sims is caught. He wants to reassure the community respond to us because they do not have the back-office that he represents. He is a good man, trying to do a job. staff to anything like the extent to which some other He does not want to make people fearful, but frankly he organisations have them. Therefore, the cuts in back-office does not know how he will cope with the levels of cuts staff being planned in the west midlands—my hon. that are being imposed on him and still be able to Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington referred provide the level of service that he has been able to to a figure of more than 1,000—will drag police officers provide in recent years. off the streets and into doing those jobs to an even greater extent than is the case now. 10.5 am I also want to point out some of the difficulties that Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I will be experienced in implementing the measures. We congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry cannot make police officers redundant. Therefore, we South (Mr Cunningham) on securing this important shall probably have to enforce regulation A19 of the debate. I know perfectly well that the aim of the coalition— Police Pensions Regulations 1987 and discontinue police its ideological ambition—is to achieve a smaller state officers’service at 30 years, thereby losing disproportionately and that it has concluded that it can do that by cutting extremely experienced police officers whom we can ill deeply into public services and blaming the previous afford to lose. Does the Minister believe that the West Government for that reckless gamble. I understand Midlands police service will be able to cope with that that. The reality is that the people of the west midlands without doing what I think the chief constable will have will deliver the final verdict on the coalition’s plans, but to do, which is freeze recruitment to that police service? my fear is that we may witness a law-and-order disaster I think that that is being planned and that that freeze and an explosion in crime before the electorate are will continue for the next four years, leaving a gap in afforded that opportunity. policing that will move slowly through the force, giving it problems for a generation, never mind the next couple I have been involved in policing matters since I first of years. came to the House in 1997. I have always believed that it is the duty of Government to give the police the numbers I want to make a point off the back of what my hon. and the resources to do their job. I am proud of the Friend the Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) Labour Government’s record in raising police numbers said. This issue does not affect only the west midlands, to record levels and in leaving office with crime lower although the west midlands will really be in difficulty than it was when we came in. Ours was the first Government because of the proposed cuts. I do not know whether to achieve that since the first world war. In addition, hon. Members are aware that a month or two ago like everyone else here, I am proud that 16,000 police Warwickshire police authority, fearful of how on earth community support officers were put on the streets. the Warwickshire police force would cope with the I do not know what happened to the review of the agenda being imposed on it—it is one of the smallest future of PCSOs that was to have been conducted by police forces in the country—proposed an amalgamation the former shadow Home Secretary, the right hon. with the Coventry police service. It did so because it Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling). Some simply did not see how the Warwickshire force would people may recall that it was announced with great cope. It is not only big forces such as the West Midlands fanfare at the Police Federation conference last year. force, serving high-crime areas, that will have huge I do not know whether it ever reached a conclusion. problems. Smaller police forces, carrying a disproportionate overhead because of their size, will wind up with the Mr Jim Cunningham: If my hon. Friend wants to problems that have been described. know what happened to the right hon. Gentleman, I can tell him that he was demoted. Mr Winnick: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way. I shall be going to the Select Committee Steve McCabe: Actually, I was referring to the right on Home Affairs shortly, Mr Brady, which explains why hon. Gentleman’s proposal to review the future of PCSOs. I cannot stay for the winding-up speeches. Is it not the I do not know whether that reached a conclusion, but case that the only people who will get any satisfaction the reality is that unless the west midlands force receives from what is going to happen in the west midlands will the grant necessary to sustain PCSOs, they will disappear be criminals, who will hope, despite all the efforts of the from the streets of places such as Selly Oak. We shall police, that they will not be caught for committing suffer the folly of front-loaded cuts, as my hon. Friends various offences? They are the only people I can imagine have said. We shall see the destruction of a decade of who will get any satisfaction from what the Government improvements. intend to do. We are likely to see two effects on West Midlands police. The funding cuts will result in job losses for Mr Ainsworth: Yes, I fear that that will be the case. civilian staff. It will be called the reverse civilianisation Conservative Members say that there is no direct correlation policy. That means that the previous policy of recruiting between police numbers and crime. Yes, of course other civilians to perform crucial support but non-direct-policing issues impact on the police and we have to push the tasks, thus freeing up police officers to fight crime, will 199WH Policing (West Midlands)16 NOVEMBER 2010 Policing (West Midlands) 200WH

[Steve McCabe] attack and the role of the Government is to defend, but at the end of which, nothing comes out. It is fair to say be put into reverse. As a result, civilian staff numbers that Opposition Members have made political points in will fall and officers will be taken off the streets to this debate—that is unsurprising, given that we are perform clerical and administrative duties—and that is politicians. However, a serious question has been put to from a Home Secretary who claims that there is too the Minister and I do not want to get to the end of the much bureaucracy and she wants crime fighters rather debate without hearing an answer. This question is vital than form-fillers. People will ring up only to be told that to the service that our constituents receive. Several of no officer is available; they are all too busy manning the my hon. Friends have posed the question, but allow me CCTV cameras, typing up reports and answering the to pose it again, Mr Brady. phone. The west midlands is a high-crime area and a deprived As my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, area. Because of the structure of police funding, it relies Erdington (Jack Dromey) said, it will not stop there. As on Government grant to make ends meet to a greater the budget tightens, the chief constable will be forced to extent than many other parts of the country. It receives pay off some of his older and most experienced officers £579 million a year from the Treasury. Although we in a desperate attempt to save money. The West Midlands agree with inter-agency working and that policing is force risks being reduced to the status of a reactive about more than numbers, 20% cannot be taken out of response unit. Some estimates suggest that we will lose the budget without having a serious effect on deprived as many as 40 officers per constituency in Birmingham. communities in the west midlands. Does the Minister Initiatives that are the cornerstone of community-based recognise that problem? Does he think that a 20% cut is and partnership policing—the very thing that the hon. the same for Surrey and the west midlands? If so, he Member for Halesowen and Rowley Regis (James Morris) needs to say that and the public need to hear him, supports—will be the first to go. Youth programmes because they know that it is different. If he recognises that are designed to attract young people to sporting that there is a disproportionate effect and that the activities, such as those that I have witnessed at Chinn reality on the ground will be different in the west Brook recreation ground, and to prevent them drifting midlands, we need to know what the Government will into vandalism and mindless antisocial behaviour will do about that. It is not unknown that when budgets are be lost. Local innovations such as police reward cards, restructured, one should consider using mechanisms which the police have pioneered in the west midlands to such as floors and ceilings in local government spending engage young people at a level that they appreciate and to ensure that the effects are dampened in certain areas. understand, will go. Social programmes, through which Will the Government do anything to recognise the officers have worked with schools such as Kings Heath specific problems in the west midlands, or will they just boys’ school and Highters Heath, Billesley and Hollywood say, “It’s 20%, that’s it. It’s up to you to sort it out in primary schools, will be lost. Finally, as the force shrinks, your region”? We need to know the answer to those crime will of course rise. questions at the end of the debate and I hope that the It is not too late for the Government to rethink their Minister will give it. priorities. It is not too late for the coalition to wake up My second point follows on from those of my hon. to the enormous gamble that it is about to take with law Friend the Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham). and order. It is not too late to recognise that having Actual crime gets to communities, but the fear of crime created an age of austerity, the last thing we should do can sap their confidence and eat away at them. We all is cut the police. There is still time to accept that the know the paradox that the higher one’s fear of being a political gamble of police commissioners does not make victim of crime, the more chance one stands of being sense when every spare penny should be used to keep a victim of crime. As I said earlier, we need to give the police officers on our streets. Who else would pick this chief constable space to recognise the difficult position moment to blow £100 million on a reckless political he is in and to do what he has to do. He will do gamble, when we should be trying to keep the force at a everything he can to ensure that communities are not strength that will enable it to do its job? scared or worried by what is going on. He is doing The picture that I have painted is not inevitable, but it everything he can to keep service levels up, but the fear will be the inevitable outcome of the decisions that the of crime will rise. coalition is taking: it will be the consequence of a One reason for the rise in the fear of crime will be Government who, by their choices, have demonstrated visibility. A great thing about police community support that they misunderstand policing. For the sake of our officers is that the police are seen to be on the high communities in the west midlands, I hope that the streets and in communities talking to people. The hon. Minister will tell us that he is prepared to listen and to Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) spoke of think again about the measures that are necessary to the importance of intelligence-led policing, but where preserve high-quality policing in Birmingham and the does the intelligence come from? The best intelligence west midlands. often comes from informal, chance conversations, which tell the police that so-and-so lives in such a place and that they talk to someone else. That is an important 10.12 am reason to have visibility in service terms, but it also Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): I reassures local communities just to see the bobby or the will make three brief points before the winding-up PCSO on the beat. speeches. The dilemma for the police, when faced with such First, it is easy in debates in the main Chamber, and cuts, is whether to maintain that visibility and reassurance sometimes in Westminster Hall, to get into political or whether to ensure that they are available to respond knockabout, where the role of the Opposition is to to incidents that occur. That would probably be done by 201WH Policing (West Midlands)16 NOVEMBER 2010 Policing (West Midlands) 202WH car because that is the quickest way to get to incidents. Ultimately, what will suffer is not this or that committee That might be the realistic response, but the result or tasking meeting and whether or not it happens, but would be the loss of local contact on the street and the the reality of service to our constituents and the people reassurance that that brings. That worries me. Again, I we represent. If we are to do something about that, if ask the Minister whether I am right. If I am wrong, he we expect Birmingham city council, the police service should tell me, but if I am right, what will he do about and others to respond properly, they must be given the the situation through the funding for West Midlands chance. I conclude where I started: if they are to be police? given the chance, we must recognise the specifics of the My final point is about community engagement, problems. It does not mean denying the fact that economies which hon. Members from all parts of the Chamber must be made, or arguing that somehow, the problems have said is important. It is important in my area of the country faces will just go away; but it does mean Northfield, where there is a local strategic partnership. recognising that areas such as Birmingham, Coventry Such partnerships exist across Birmingham with greater and other parts of the west midlands have specific and or lesser degrees of success. One of the strong elements extreme problems. Those problems, such as getting the of our constituency strategic partnership is that we youth service properly staffed or the children’s and decided at the start that it would be chaired not by a police services working properly, are interrelated. The local councillor or politician, as many are, but by the idea that, in the middle of that, taking 20% out of the local senior police officer. There have been a number of Home Office grant of £579 million will not have a grave chairs over the years, and their role has been incredibly impact is simply a cloud cuckoo land idea. positive. They have sometimes brought a reality check I accept that, when the Minister responds, he will to the debate and to discussions on inter-agency working. doubtless make his riposte to the political points and My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington say, “The Labour Government did this, and we are (Jack Dromey) has spoken about local tasking meetings, going to do that.” However, before he gets to the end of which have been important in his area. Such local his speech, will he please answer this question: do the engagement is important. Government recognise that there will be a disproportionate effect on the west midlands, yes or no? If the answer is Although I know the police will do all they can to no, is he prepared to say that to the people we represent, continue with local engagement, I fear that it will suffer as well as to those in the Chamber? If the answer is yes, in the face of the coming pressures. When it starts to what will he do about it? suffer, we should remember that the cuts in policing do not exist in isolation; they exist at the same time as other agencies that are part of the inter-agency working 10.23 am that Government Members have mentioned also face cuts. For example, Birmingham city council has rightly Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I been criticised over the issue of child protection and start by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for safeguarding. Big changes are happening in Birmingham Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) on securing the as a result—whether fast or effective enough is another debate today and on setting out so clearly why it has matter. The pressures on the local authority to act been called. I also congratulate other right hon. and are real. hon. Members from the area covered by the West Midlands force for clearly setting out their views and concerns. I Some of what is being done makes sense. Procedures also pay tribute to the hard work and dedication of all are being built on procedures, to ensure that some of police officers and staff in all the police forces throughout the real tragedies we have seen in Birmingham do not the country, but in particular in the West Midlands happen again. However, my worry about that—the police force. relevance to policing will be seen in a minute—is that, in I feel fortunate to be standing here, because my right the process, something will be lost when we are only hon. and hon. Friends have set out with great passion focusing on the crisis: when we are just stopping crisis and determination the reasons why the proposed cuts, after crisis. With so much emphasis on putting in place for the west midlands in particular, are unfair, wrong procedures to stop the crises, we will start to lose the and need to be looked at again. My hon. Friend set out low-level stuff, the real preventive stuff. his long experience and knowledge of policing, and gave practical examples of what policing was like before Steve McCabe: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend 1997. He talked about the need for a proper witness about the dangers for child protection work. Is it not protection scheme, which did not exist before 1997. He also the case that Birmingham has a low-funded youth also set the scene of what has happened since the record service, one of the poorest in the country? Exactly his investment in policing. We are all keen to hear the argument about engagement and child protection and Minister’s responses to the long list of proposals and safety is our argument for engaging young people and questions clearly set out by my hon. Friend. diverting them from crime. I was struck by the comments of a number of my right hon. and hon. Friends about the knock-on effect Richard Burden: My hon. Friend makes a good point. of the cuts for smaller police forces neighbouring the Such issues interrelate. If we have the children’s services West Midlands force. Again, I hope that the Minister department chasing and trying to prevent the crises—rightly, will be able to put our minds at rest in his response. in many ways—we lose the low-level stuff. If, simultaneously, My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington we are cutting back on the youth service, we will be (Jack Dromey) gave a clear example of what policing causing problems. If the local police are under pressure meant in his constituency, on the streets of Erdington as well, the inter-agency work that all those agencies and other areas, and of the anger felt about the proposed want to do will start to suffer. cuts. We look forward to the Minister’s response to his 203WH Policing (West Midlands)16 NOVEMBER 2010 Policing (West Midlands) 204WH

[Diana Johnson] public services and the money that has been provided for them, it is clear that the police are losing out list of questions, too. Interestingly, my hon. Friend disproportionately. reminded us of the Liberal Democrats’ promise in their I believe that the coalition Government are taking May manifesto of 3,000 additional police officers. I had huge risks with that approach. The cuts are too hard, a quick look through the coalition agreement this morning; too fast and reckless. The Opposition have made it clear sadly, there is no sign of any additional police officers. I that we would protect front-line policing, but it is clear am therefore not sure what the Liberal Democrats are that, under the approach taken by the coalition bringing to the table on policing. I understand that they Government, it will be impossible for front-line policing certainly do not support police commissioners. to be protected with cuts at such a level. Safety on the My right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry streets should be a top priority for any responsible North East (Mr Ainsworth) clearly set out the Government, and police funding should reflect that, as disproportionate effect for the West Midlands police it did under the Labour Government. Proper support force of the cuts in funding and the discrepancy between for our police is vital, which is why Labour believes that what happens in his area and other areas of the country. we need to keep every police officer we can equipped to He also spoke about the effect of losing the most do the job. experienced officers—those with 30 years’ or more As we heard, crime fell by 43% under Labour, even experience will go, which will present problems for the through the strains of the recession, because of our chief constable and senior officers. He also made an three-pronged approach. One part of that approach important point about back-office cuts and their direct was having more police, and I take issue with the hon. effect on front-line policing in the west midlands. Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart), who My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly implied that this is not about numbers, because it clearly Oak (Steve McCabe) set out his long interest in policing. is. It is wrong to say that having fewer police officers on He made clear his belief that, behind the cuts to the the street will somehow not have an impact on the levels police service, is an ideological approach to a smaller of crime. The other parts of that three-pronged approach state. He talked with passion about the youth projects were having more powers to detect crime and antisocial and the local innovations in his constituency of which behaviour and sending more criminals to prison. That the police have been part and parcel. was our approach, but I worry that the coalition is My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield putting all three elements into reverse with its cuts. (Richard Burden) reminded us clearly, at the outset, of the professional role of the police officer and the need Jack Dromey: We have all waited patiently for the for the chief constable to behave in an obviously professional hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart), way. We need to be mindful of that. We expect the chief who is a former police officer, to answer the point that constable to work with the resources available, but it is several Members, including my hon. Friend the Member clearly down to the politicians to make the case for why for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), have more resources need to be made available. My hon. raised. Perhaps he has taken a monastic vow of silence. Friend also set out the cases around funding and deprived Why is it that his party committed to having 3,000 more communities in particular. He asked the Minister to police officers on the beat, but now supports removing respond to the particular problems faced by areas such 40 police officers from each of the 10 constituencies in as the west midlands and the disproportionate effect of Birmingham? the 20% cut. He also spoke about the problem of fear and the need to reassure the public, with the role of the police in community engagement and preventive work. Diana Johnson: My hon. Friend raises an important question, and the Minister might be able to respond My hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North shortly. (Mr Winnick) reminded us that the majority of the police budget—80%—is spent on staffing, so this debate Let me make one final point about policing in general. is about jobs. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak mentioned the politicisation of the police through Mr Jim Cunningham: One of the things that we the madcap scheme of establishing police and crime should not lose sight of when we talk about staffing commissioners in each police force area. That will be levels—leaving aside the office staff about whom we done at an estimated cost of at least £50 million, at a have all expressed concern—is that we also have people time of savage cuts to front-line policing. I ask the such as cleaners. They are sometimes from one-parent Minister to think again, because the scheme seems to families. Their jobs could be on the line, just as much as enjoy little support. anyone else’s. We heard that the number of police officers in the west midlands has increased from 7,113 to 8,536 since Diana Johnson: My hon. Friend makes an important 1997. point. Turning to some general comments on the cuts, chief Steve McCabe: Does my hon. Friend agree that if it is constables and police authorities in the 43 police forces legitimate to have a referendum to determine whether around the country will be facing tough choices from people want directly elected mayors, it would be equally this winter, following the announcement in the legitimate to ask them whether they would prefer scarce comprehensive spending review last month. It is quite and precious resources to be spent on keeping police clear from the 20% cut over four years that the Home officers in their jobs or on electing a highly political Secretary has totally failed to stand up for policing in animal to dominate the police and change the character the Home Office budget. When compared with other of British policing? Would that not be a localism agenda? 205WH Policing (West Midlands)16 NOVEMBER 2010 Policing (West Midlands) 206WH

Diana Johnson: As we know, the coalition Government 10.36 am are wedded to the idea of localism, so the Minister The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick might feel able to respond to that suggestion, which Herbert): I congratulate the hon. Member for Coventry would fit very much with asking local people what they South (Mr Cunningham) on securing the debate. I will would like. certainly endeavour to answer as many as possible of As I said, we have heard about the increase in the the questions that hon. Members have put to the number of police officers. We have also talked at length Government. about the problems with the grant that the West Midlands I understand the passion with which hon. Members police force receives, which constitutes 83% of its total have spoken and their concern to secure the best possible funding and which is not raised from local council tax. I policing for members of the public in their constituencies. seek guidance from the Minister about his approach to Members on both sides share that concern. We want to the precept that local councils will be asked to agree for ensure that the public remain safe, and it is, of course, policing. Does he expect it to go much higher? That the Government’s duty to do everything we can to would not fit with the approach taken by the Secretary achieve that. Nevertheless, there are two strands to this of State for Communities and Local Government to debate, which were correctly identified by the hon. restricting council tax increases. Perhaps the Minister Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey). can tell us what he expects from police authorities in The first concerns the political points that hon. Members terms of the precept. have made, and I will respond to those first. The second We have heard a great deal about these issues not concerns the specific position of West Midlands police, being confined just to the west midlands. I think that and I will endeavour to respond on that as well. they will start appearing in the press almost every day. I cannot let the moment go by without observing that Today, we have heard that the Greater Manchester the reason why this Government have to make cuts in police force is looking at 3,000 job losses, including police funding is to deal with the deficit bequeathed to 1,500 police officers. Those job losses will be set out in a us by the previous Government. I must make that point report from the chief constable to the police authority, because political points have been made by Opposition and it looks as though at least a quarter of the force’s Members, who accepted no responsibility for the position staff will go over the next four years. in which their party left the country. Indeed, they appear It is worrying that there might, as we have discussed, to be proceeding on the basis that we can simply ignore be a push to remove officers with more than 30 years’ the contribution that policing can make to delivering experience in the police force. The provisions that are savings and that what is being announced now is somehow being used were introduced not to bring about such a all the fault of the new Government, who have been in wholesale reduction in the number of experienced officers, office for barely a few months. but to be used in the interests of policing with particular officers. Will the Minister comment on that? There is Mr Jim Cunningham: I think that my party, when in particular concern about what will happen to the specialist government, faced up to that. The Minister is not facing skills of some experienced officers, particularly those in up to the fact that the bankers started the problem; we the specialist domestic violence units and rape units. did not. Until that is faced up to, there will be all sorts The general public will have real concerns about the of problems, because nothing has been done about it. impact on their communities when we lose that specialist policing. Nick Herbert: I did not understand a word, I am afraid, that the hon. Gentleman said, but we are indeed We know that efficiency savings can be made. A facing up to the problem of the deficit that was bequeathed report by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary to us by the previous Government. We simply do not entitled “Valuing the Police: Policing in an age of austerity”, regard it as sustainable that we should, in a few years, be which was published in July, said that there could be a spending about three times as much on debt interest redesign of the police system, with savings of about alone as we do on the entire criminal justice system. In 12%, but cuts of 20% go well beyond that. West Midlands the Government’s view policing can make its contribution police has already taken action to streamline its operations to reducing the deficit, by making savings. and promote greater efficiency through the Paragon programme, which is set to save £50 million over four Diana Johnson: It is clear that Labour had a policy of years. However, it does not look as if the coalition halving the deficit over four years. It is clear as well, as I Government will work with police forces that are doing said in my speech, that we looked to efficiency savings, the right thing by looking for efficiency savings. Comments which we thought could bring about a 12% saving. I do from KPMG and the Police Federation make it clear not quite understand why the Minister feels that the that 20% real-terms cuts across the country over four Opposition do not have a policy on the matter. Clearly, years—they will be front-loaded, so chief constables we do. and police authorities will have to implement them right at the start of the four-year period, which will make it difficult to make plans—will mean that no Nick Herbert: I am intrigued to hear that the Opposition efficiency measure that police authorities and chief now admit that they would have been cutting the policing constables can possibly introduce will be enough, and budget, if that is what the hon. Lady is saying. One front-line policing will suffer. would not have known that from any of the rhetoric used by the Opposition Members, who talked as though I look forward to the Minister’s response to the long it were not necessary at all to deal with spending by list of questions from my right hon. and hon. Friends. I police forces. Perhaps the hon. Lady should have a word hope that he will think again about the impact on the with her hon. Friends and explain to them exactly the West Midlands police authority. scale of the cuts that she proposed. 207WH Policing (West Midlands)16 NOVEMBER 2010 Policing (West Midlands) 208WH

Jack Dromey: Is not there a contrast between the Nick Herbert: I shall give way to the right hon. Liberal Democrat pledge of 3,000 more police officers, Gentleman. the pledge made by my party to protect front-line policing, and what the Minister said to his constituents Mr Ainsworth: Is it the Minister’s plan to talk until at the time of his election? Did he tell them that there 11 o’clock without getting on to the central issue that would be cuts to front-line policing? has been raised in the debate—the fact that the West Midlands police force is being hit disproportionately, in Nick Herbert: Let me try to explain to the hon. comparison with many low-crime areas? Will the Minister Gentleman that it is our ambition, too, to protect spend some time between now and 11 o’clock attempting front-line policing. We want policing to be maintained to justify the disproportionate hit that his proposal is in neighbourhoods, in the form of neighbourhood policing making on the high-crime areas of the country, one of and response policing, so that when people dial 999 which is the west midlands? they can be certain that officers will arrive. Of course we want that, and so does the chief constable of the Nick Herbert: I set out at the beginning of my speech West Midlands police—as do all chief constables. We the way in which I would respond, and my intention to believe that it will be possible to protect that front-line discuss the situation of the west midlands. The right policing in spite of the cuts to the police budget that we hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends made the mistake have announced. I shall explain why, but first I wanted of introducing a political tone to the debate, and they to get out of the way the point that we had to deal with can hardly be surprised that I respond in kind. If they the deficit; it is our responsibility to do so in the had chosen to approach the debate in a different way, national interest. We have now had an admission from they would have had more time for the specifics that the Opposition that they would have cut spending as they want covered. I suggest that they intervene less if well. Of course they will not say how they would have they want me to get to the points that I certainly intend allocated £40 billion of spending cuts, but there is no to deal with. doubt—because they have admitted it before and repeated it today—that some of those cuts would have fallen on The question of numbers has been raised in debate police budgets. Let us have less high moral outrage from among my hon. Friends and others. Certainly there are, Labour Members. Let us accept that, whoever was or there were last year—police numbers were beginning elected, policing budgets would have to be dealt with to fall in some forces before the general election—a because of the deficit bequeathed to the country by record number of police officers in the country. However, Labour’s fiscal mismanagement. it is not possible to make the simple links between crime levels and police officer numbers that hon. Members The second issue that hon. Members raised was police have made. I have pointed out before the example of the numbers. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull New York police: the overall police work force contracted North said that “sadly,” there was “no sign” of additional by 10% in the past decade—a significant fall—and police numbers in the coalition agreement. Do I take it crime fell by over a third in the same period. Of course from that criticism that she would have liked a commitment they had to focus on making savings and working more to an increase in police numbers, or that that is the efficiently. Opposition’s new commitment? Apparently not. She was apparently saying that it was sad that there was no I point out to hon. Members who want to make such sign of additional police numbers—she is nodding at a simplistic link that in the 12 months to June, most of that. Can I have from her an assurance that she would which period fell within the reign of the previous like an increase in police numbers? Government, violence against the person without injury increased in the West Midlands police force area, and so Diana Johnson: The Minister knows jolly well that I did the number of domestic burglaries. If there is a was referring to the promise in the Liberal Democrat simple link between the number of police officers and manifesto in May of 3,000 additional police officers. I crime levels, why did that happen? The Opposition was looking at the coalition agreement—the Liberal Members here today are experienced and they know Democrats and Conservatives coming together to set perfectly well that there is not a simple link. The questions out their policy platform, so that we could all see their we should be dealing with are: how well are resources plan—to see whether the Liberal Democrats got that being deployed and, given that money will be tighter in promise into the agreement. Clearly they did not. the next few years, how can we ensure that efficiencies are driven towards getting what the public want—the Nick Herbert: The hon. Lady is indeed perceptive. maximum visibility and availability of policing on the There is no commitment to increased police numbers. streets? Why? Because, in the words of the former Chief Secretary That takes me to my third point. The independent to the Treasury, in the note that he left for us, there is no inspectorate of constabulary recently reported on police money. [Interruption.] No. Of course we cannot make officer deployment and made two crucial points. The a commitment to increase police numbers. I am making first was that, on average, the proportion of police work the point that the hon. Lady cannot make it either, and forces that is visible and available to the public at any that in the run-up to the general election the then Home one time is 11%. There is a significant variation between Secretary, now the shadow Chancellor, refused to give a forces, but that tells us that roughly nine tenths of police guarantee that police numbers would remain as they resources are not visible and available to the public at were then. any one time, which raises concerns about deployment and should make us look at the efficiency with which Steve McCabe: Will the Minister give way? resources are being deployed, and at such factors as bureaucracy.Opposition Members made very little mention Mr Ainsworth: Will the Minister give way? of that. 209WH Policing (West Midlands)16 NOVEMBER 2010 Policing (West Midlands) 210WH

Richard Burden: Will the Minister give way? The crucial point is that we have not yet announced the grants for specific forces. The cut that we announced Nick Herbert: I do want to deal with my points. was therefore an average. Within a few weeks, in early December, I shall announce a provisional grant settlement Richard Burden: On that last point, where did the for each force. In considering the level of grant that west midlands feature, and where did Surrey feature, should be made available to each force, we will go and will the Minister answer the point we put to him, through the proper processes and take account of things please? such as damping and the needs of forces. That process is under way, so the sensible points by Opposition Members Nick Herbert: Yes. I am, I hope, coming to all the were well made. However—this is something that points that hon. Members made. I want to address Opposition Front Benchers will have to address—if them, but I am making the crucial point that the test of some forces are to be given a degree of protection police effectiveness is not just to do with the overall because they raise less money from council tax than sums of money that are spent, or even the overall others, two questions arise. numbers of officers. It is what is done with the officers. First, why should forces in areas where people are The inspectorate made a second crucial point, which already contributing more through the council tax suffer is that police forces between them could save more than a bigger cut in Government grant? Why should they be £1 billion a year by improving the way they work. As punished by a bigger cut? Secondly, if forces such as the the hon. Lady said, that would represent about 12% of West Midlands police were to be given a smaller than their budget, once the ability of forces to raise precept average cut, which is what I think the Opposition are was taken into account. As a result, the cut that we asking for, which forces do they say should be made to announced would be reduced to an average of 14% in suffer a greater than average cut? Will the hon. Member real terms over four years. However, I accept that that is for Kingston upon Hull North confirm that it is Opposition an average figure and that some forces have a greater policy for forces that receive more through the council ability to raise money from precept than others—a tax to suffer a bigger than average cut? Will the hon. point made by the right hon. Member for Coventry Lady confirm that now? North East. I shall come shortly to how we can deal with that. The House will have noted the resounding silence, and seen that the hon. Lady’s head is down. The figures I have just given leave a funding gap of two percentage points. The matters that the inspectorate report did not cover will also need to be addressed. For Mr Ainsworth: Ordinary people listening to our debate example, forces could procure collectively rather than will have noted that the Minister is playing silly political separately, which would save hundreds of millions of games rather than acknowledging that the Government pounds; and savings will accrue from the announced grant is provided to areas that have higher levels of two-year pay freeze across the public sector that, subject crime. That is the reason for them. Saying that that to the police review board’s agreement, will apply also should not be taken into account when allocating the to police officers. We believe that significant savings can size of the cut does not address the central problem. be made by police forces, including by the West Midlands People need policing proportionate to the scale of the force—that is on top of the Paragon programme, which problems that they face. Does the Minister not accept is already delivering savings—while protecting front-line that? services and, crucially, the visibility and availability that concern the public. Nick Herbert: Of course these things are taken into We heard nothing—literally nothing—from the account. I have to tell the right hon. Gentleman that if Opposition about procurement or other areas where he does not want to play silly political games, he and his savings could be made. They made the simplistic assumption hon. Friends should not have started in that in vein. that a reduction in budget was bound to lead to a Now that he is making a serious point, however, I reduction in the number of officers on the streets or remind him that we are going through the formal process available to the public, but that is an assumption that of allocating grant. Need, of course, is a crucial factor, they should not make. but that is already reflected in the way in which grant is allocated, particularly for urban areas. Steve McCabe: If we take what the Minister says at face value—I am prepared to accept that he must be The particular point that I am making to the hon. right—will he tell us how many officers we in the west Member for Kingston upon Hull North and to the right midlands can safely afford to lose before he would be hon. Gentleman is this. If it is argued that a disproportionate concerned? Will he also answer the point about the share of the savings should fall to the West Midlands disproportionate grant, which all of us have raised? police—in other words, that its share of the savings should be lower because the local precept contributes Nick Herbert: I have told Opposition Members of less—the question to be answered, not by the right hon. the structure that I wish to apply, and I have said that I Gentleman and Opposition Back Benchers, because it am seeking to answer that point. is outside their remit, but by Opposition Front Benchers The deployment of resources is a matter for the chief and others is: which forces will therefore have to pay constable and the police authority. It is not for the more? As the right hon. Gentleman knows, that is a Government to decide; it will be the chief constable’s perfectly fair point. decision. The task now falls on him to drive the savings that are necessary, particularly the savings in the back Jack Dromey: I am grateful to the Minister for giving and middle offices, to ensure that the front line can be way. Will he confirm that the consequence of the protected. I repeat that we believe that it can be. disproportionate impact on the West Midlands police 211WH Policing (West Midlands) 16 NOVEMBER 2010 212WH

[Jack Dromey] Cyprus service will be that 2,500 jobs are to go over the next four years, including 1,200 police officers? Will he confirm 11 am that that is a fact? Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): Although I am extremely grateful to have secured this Nick Herbert: No, I cannot confirm that that is a debate, it is unfortunate that, 36 years on, the Cyprus fact. The hon. Gentleman seems to misunderstand the problem remains unresolved. There have been many position. First, the grant settlement has not been announced. staging posts along the way, where hopes have been Secondly, these decisions are not announced by the raised and dashed. The tolerance and discipline of the Government. It is not for me to say; I therefore cannot Cypriot people must be recognised and not seen in any confirm that what he describes as a fact is indeed a fact. way as a weakness, because they have a determination These are decisions for the chief constable and the to win back their island. police authority. Despite UN Security Council resolutions calling on It is clearly unrealistic to suggest that the Government Turkey to withdraw its forces from Northern Cyprus, can guarantee the number of police officers, and nor Turkey has stubbornly refused to do so. In fact, Turkey can the Opposition. The question is what the Government has declared on more than one occasion that if it has to can do to ensure that police forces are in the best make a choice between Cyprus and its accession to the possible position to make savings and to protect the EU, it will choose Cyprus. front line. We believe that it is possible, including in the west midlands, to make significant back and middle Indeed, these very days remind us of Turkey’s continuing office savings so as to ensure that resources go where the intransigence over the years. Rather than working to public want them. implement the high-level agreements of Makarios-Denktash in 1977 and Kyprianou-Denktash in 1979, on 15 November Richard Burden: The Minister said that he will be 1983 Turkey instigated and supported separatist acts by looking at the matter in the run-up to the announcement. the Turkish Cypriot leadership with an illegal unilateral Will he specify today what criteria he will use to consider declaration of independence of the northern part of the needs of different areas? He has not told us what his Cyprus. That action prompted UN Security Council criteria are. resolutions 541 of 1983 and 550 of 1984, which condemned the UDI, declared it illegal and called for its immediate Nick Herbert: I have attempted to reply to that question. withdrawal. As a result, no country in the world has We will be considering all the proper criteria, including recognised the illegal regime, except Turkey, which funds the needs of each area, questions on the damping that it and exercises virtual control over it. has been applied and all the other factors that Opposition The newly elected leader of the Turkish Cypriot Members have raised. I have always been willing to community, Mr Dervis Eroglu, continues to advocate discuss sensibly with right hon. and hon. Members the the same separatist policies on Cyprus. On the anniversary particular needs of their local forces, and I have discussed of the Turkish invasion of Cyprus earlier this year, he them with the chief constable. said: Another important aspect to this debate is that reducing “After 20 July 1974 there has been a new geography and two bureaucracy will help to ensure that police officers are separate states, two separate peoples, two separate republics and released for front-line duties. We will save hundreds of two separate sides”. thousands of officer hours through measures such as It is against that backdrop of intransigence that President reducing the national requirement on stop-and-search Christofias of Cyprus continues to negotiate in good and scrapping entirely the stop-and-account form. The faith for a lasting solution to the Cyprus issue. Government are determined to do everything that we To counter the intransigence of the Turkish Cypriots can not only to make savings but to protect front-line on the property issue, the President of Cyprus recently policing and the number of officers in the neighbourhood. made several proposals: to conduct an independent We believe that if police forces work constructively, they census of population and property ownership in Cyprus; can help to achieve those savings and protect front-line to link the issue of property with that of settlers, as they policing. are interdependent; that the ghost town of Varosha should be returned to its inhabitants; and that the port of Famagusta should be opened, under the supervision of the EU, for the purposes of trade between the Turkish Cypriots and the EU.

Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree that there are tremendous fears about whether the Turkish Cypriots will take those issues at all seriously in the negotiations and discussions that are to be held on 18 November?

Jim Sheridan: My hon. Friend is absolutely right and we must do all we can: I hope that this debate will reinforce this Government’s insistence that Turkey take those negotiations or discussions seriously. I thank him for that important intervention. 213WH Cyprus16 NOVEMBER 2010 Cyprus 214WH

The meeting on 18 November at the UN between record that my own party, when it was in government, the UN Secretary General, President Christofias and did very little—if anything—to solve the Cyprus problem. the leader of the Turkish Cypriot community will provide So it is not a question of apportioning blame. When my a good opportunity for the Turkish side to show its party was in government, it was just as poor at addressing respect for UN resolutions and the judgments of the the Cyprus problem. European Court of Human Rights, and to respond Some of the other areas that I want to cover are the positively to the various proposals put forward by the issues surrounding the missing persons of the 1974 President of Cyprus. We must remain optimistic and invasion, the destruction of the cultural heritage of sincerely hope that the meeting will prove to be successful, Cyprus, the restoration of property rights and Turkey’s and that Turkey will take seriously not only the concerns accession to the EU. of the Cypriot people, but those of the international community. Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): Can my Sadly, to date the Turkish verbal support for the hon. Friend add to that list of issues his response to the ongoing negotiations has not been met by their deeds—not orchestrated campaign in the media in relation to a single step has been taken to that effect. Within the suggestions that, if the talks at the UN in New York are context of negotiations, Turkey has rejected all the not successful, it may lead to a two-state solution for proposals put forward by the President of the Republic Cyprus? of Cyprus. Turkey still maintains illegally a 40,000-strong occupation army in Cyprus, it has not implemented the Jim Sheridan: My hon. Friend makes an important Ankara protocol vis-à-vis the Republic of Cyprus, and point. There is a school of thought—certainly among it has repeatedly used the so-called “isolation” of the the Cypriot people—that regards the press and media Turkish Cypriots as a pretext for the political upgrading as biased toward Turkey. I sincerely hope that the of the non-recognized entity—the Turkish Northern discussions next week will take a balanced approach. Republic of Cyprus, or TNRC—in Cyprus. Many colleagues here today have visited Cyprus, seen Mr Brady, I want to take this opportunity to welcome it for themselves and heard stories about the young men the high commissioner from Cyprus, who has joined us and women who went missing during the invasion, today for this very important debate. never to be seen again. Their loved ones’ heart-breaking Having visited Cyprus, I saw at first hand, as others stories cannot fail to leave a lasting emotional imprint have done, that Turkish Cypriots are far from isolated. on all of us. Those families have the fundamental More than 60,000 Turkish Cypriots have passports and human right to find out what happened to their loved identity cards of the Republic of Cyprus and therefore ones, and we as a Government should be asking Turkey of the European Union, allowing them to travel freely to facilitate that request. To this day, the whereabouts of across Europe and to benefit from Cypriot health care more than 1,400 individuals are still unknown. It is a and social security. In addition, more than 10,000 Turkish human tragedy that should not be allowed to continue. Cypriots cross the green line every day to work in the Republic of Cyprus. Moreover, Turkish Cypriots are Ian Lavery: Does my hon. Friend agree that the 1,400 able to trade their goods freely in the Republic of young men and women who went missing during and Cyprus and export them overseas, through the recognised after the invasion should be a main item on the agenda ports and airports of the Republic of Cyprus. However, at this week’s meeting? It is now 2010, and there are they are prevented from doing so by the Turkish Cypriot 1,400 families with missing people. Should that not be a authorities. main theme on the agenda at the meeting on Thursday It is equally unfortunate that Turkey’s intransigence 18 November? has been rewarded with a seat on the UN Security Council as a non-permanent member and that both Jim Sheridan: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Europe and the US are prepared to turn a blind eye to One cannot overestimate the distress caused to the Turkey’s activities. loved ones of the missing Cypriot people. All that they May I also say, in a non-partisan way, that the recent ask of the Turkish people and the Turkish Government visit by our own Prime Minister to Turkey did nothing is to understand the severity of their feelings. It should to help the Cyprus problem? While he was publicly be a crucial part of the discussions to bring some supportive of Turkey, unfortunately he did not make conclusion to that problem. public mention of the Cyprus problem. However, I am The destruction of Cyprus’s cultural heritage is equally led to believe that he made a private call to President unacceptable. In 1965, Turkey ratified the Hague convention Christofias. Perhaps the Minister can confirm that that of 1954 on the protection of cultural heritage in the was indeed the case. event of armed conflict. Nevertheless, since Turkey’s Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): I intervention and subsequent occupation of Cyprus in think that the Prime Minister actually mentioned in his 1974, it has been responsible for the devastation, vandalism speech that Turkey had to resolve the Cyprus issue, so it and looting of the island’s cultural heritage on a scale is not quite correct to say that he did not mention it. unworthy of any civilised nation, let alone a prospective That may need to be checked. I read his speech and he EU member. According to the Church of Cyprus, more specifically said in his speech that the Turkish authorities than 500 churches and monasteries in the northern part had to resolve the Cyprus issue. of Cyprus have been destroyed, and some 15,000 small relics have been looted. Some colleagues and I recently Jim Sheridan: I have not had the good fortune of visited the annual Morphou rally and saw for ourselves reading the speech; I am led only by press and media the graveyards and cemeteries that have been devastated. reports. However, let me say at the outset that I do not I am more than happy to pass the photographs to the wish this issue to become a partisan one. I also put on Minister if he should require to see them. 215WH Cyprus16 NOVEMBER 2010 Cyprus 216WH

[Jim Sheridan] constitute a strong and vibrant part of British society, predominantly in London, the midlands and Manchester. Colleagues will also be aware of the indefensible Equally, Cyprus welcomes more than 1.7 million British isolation of Famagusta, or Varosha as it is known in tourists to its shores every year. In addition to that Cyprus. The city has been left to rot while the rest of the mutually beneficial relationship, we have a special world has moved on. Many Cypriots can only look on responsibility as a guarantor power of Cyprus’s sovereignty, with horror and dismay while their properties are occupied territorial integrity and independence. Therefore, we by strangers. Turkey’s invasion of 1974 left 200,000 must be a honest friend of Cyprus and help the two refugees homeless, many of whom fled their homes with communities reach a solution for Cypriots and by Cypriots few or no belongings. There is no doubt that if Turkey that safeguards the whole island’s territorial integrity wished and had the political will to find a satisfactory and unity. After all, any proposed solution must be put conclusion to the problem, we could find a way to to a referendum. The last effort to solve the Cyprus restore the properties to their rightful owners. problem, in 2004, demonstrated what can happen when Turkey has effectively created a so-called state in an imbalanced solution proposed by third parties lacks northern Cyprus, to the detriment not only of the the support of the people. Greek Cypriots whose property was confiscated by the Some people argue that the Cyprus problem has had self-styled Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus but of its day, that its shelf life is over and that only elderly the Turkish Cypriots who have suffered under Turkish people in Cyprus pay attention to it. I have a letter from rule by becoming a minority in the northern part of Alexis Stavrou, president of NEPOMAK, the world Cyprus. According to the Turkish Cypriot press, Turkey organisation for young overseas Cypriots in the UK. It has transferred 180,000 settlers into northern Cyprus, is an extensive, emotional and fact-finding letter, and I with the consequence that Turkey has imposed its ideology am more than happy to share it with any colleagues there. More mosques than schools have been built in who wish to see it. I wish for a satisfactory solution to northern Cyprus—181 mosques to 162 schools—and the Cyprus problem in the near future. the crime rate has soared due to uncontrolled immigration from Turkey. Education and health services are becoming 11.19 am overburdened. The Turkish Cypriot media also report that in order to enshrine the ideological shift further, Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): This Turkey is now demanding that settlers account for more is an important and timely debate, and I welcome the than 50% of new appointments in the civil service, opportunity to speak as chairman of the all-party police, education and health services. parliamentary group on Cyprus. I see colleagues here who are officers and members of that group, and recognise That is the backdrop to the relentless efforts by that the spirit of the debate is an all-party one. We want Turkey and those who blindly champion its membership to make a consensus point to the Minister that it is of the European Union to push for outcomes that important that we take extremely seriously this country’s legitimise all the grave consequences of Turkey’s illegal responsibilities as a guarantor power and do not simply invasion and 36-year military occupation of the northern sit on the sidelines. We need to make it clear that the part of the island. Cyprus problem must be solved and the island reunited. Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I There was a debate on the subject last year and the congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important Library prepared a standard note dated 4 November and timely debate as we look to the UN meeting on 2009, which states: Thursday.Does he acknowledge that Cyprus itself supports “many commentators have suggested that the current window of Turkey’s accession to Europe? Obviously, that cannot opportunity may well be closed if the presidential elections in the happen unless the Cyprus problem is resolved, but he north in April 2010 bring in a nationalist president. The current mentioned blindly supporting accession. The Cyprus prospects for a settlement have been put at about two in five.” Government is willing to go down that path as long as I am not sure what people would say the prospects are the Cyprus issue is settled. now. In the north, a nationalist politician has been elected. Nevertheless—as the hon. Member for Paisley Jim Sheridan: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan) said—despite That will be a crucial part of the discussions, and the the campaign during that election for a two-state solution, Turkish authorities must take it seriously. I certainly talks have continued. We must recognise that engagement hope that they will. has continued on the basis of the United Nations I wish the UN negotiations every success. There is no framework, which clearly refers to a federal bi-zonal, doubt that they are complex, but they must be solved in bi-communal solution. That is the framework everyone order to draw a line under the Cyprus problem. However, will be discussing as they approach the United Nations the key to a solution is in the hands of the Turkish meeting. Government and authorities in occupied northern Cyprus. The debate is timely given that, as was mentioned in A solution that reunites the island for the benefit of all an intervention, reference has been made to the subject Cypriots and leads to the withdrawal of the Turkish in the media by the right hon. Member for Blackburn occupation army from the island will boost Turkey’s (Mr Straw), who raised the spectre of partition. I want chances of joining the EU more than any other single to refer to that article—indeed, I have given notice to factor, but that will require Turkey to change its bullying the right hon. Gentleman that I wish to do so. We behaviour and give the Cypriot people a chance to live have had such debates before; indeed, many colleagues in peace in their own free and united country. here have also been involved in those discussions. At I remind my colleagues of Cyprus’s long-standing least 70 talks have taken place, and there may be fatigue and mutually beneficial relationship with the United in relation to the issue. When we discuss concerns Kingdom. The Greek and Turkish Cypriot communities about overseas disasters, colleagues will deplore—as I 217WH Cyprus16 NOVEMBER 2010 Cyprus 218WH do—references to compassion fatigue. That becomes Government’s approach. Doing so would benefit the imbued when people do not react as they should do to hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North, and what is happening, and simply accept and tolerate a the community at large. situation because it goes on and on. My constituency When one considers the right hon. Gentleman’s has perhaps the most Cypriots of any—both Greek and argument, it is—to coin a phrase—based on straw. He Turkish Cypriots—and during my time as a Member of says that if talks fail, the Government should formally Parliament, I have seen a degree of “Cyprus fatigue” consider partition. First, that is not legal. The United occurring, if one may put it that way. The question is Kingdom’s obligations in the 1960s treaties relate to a whether Parliament itself has been guilty of that as the commitment not to support years have gone by—or, indeed, whether the British “any moves towards the partition of the island or the recognition Government have been guilty of it. or upgrading of any separate political entity.” My constituents will not allow that to happen. They I would welcome the Minister’s making it clear that remind me—if not daily, then weekly—of how, at these partition is not an option for Britain. It is not an option times, such a situation is not acceptable. Both Greek for the United Nations and, fundamentally, it is not an and Turkish Cypriots in my constituency want a settlement option for the European Union, which cannot accept a and a reunited Cyprus. Many of them are refugees and, divided member state. Secondly, it is not ethical. The as has been said, they miss their loved ones. They do not right hon. Gentleman’s article referred to the numerical know the truth of what happened, and they cannot advantage of Turkey over Cyprus in terms of both even begin the process of reconciliation without that Greek and Turkish Cypriots. However, one cannot say— information. I defy anyone attending the rallies held in certainly we in the House cannot say—that law and July by those who are still missing loved ones to go out justice do not matter if someone is big and strong. I do on to College Green and be fatigued from hearing the not want to make this a partisan issue—that certainly protest and seeing the pictures of those loved ones. I has not been the nature of the debate—but the previous encourage everyone to attend such rallies, when we get Government talked about having an ethical foreign to that point in July. When we are reminded of the fact policy. The right hon. Gentleman was a member of that that fundamental human rights have been breached, Government, and I wonder how his opinions sit with property has been lost and the right to return to villages that argument. has been lost—as colleagues have said—we cannot in any way be fatigued. Thirdly, such an argument is wrong on the basis of fact. Reference was made to the Annan plan. From In my constituency during the election campaign, being involved in this subject, we all know that, regarding Cyprus was inevitably an issue. I was given a book the argument, we can often go back into history and be about Cyprus and, on the inside cover, the author has left there. However, we need to be accurate about history. written: The Annan plan did not fail as a result of the late “Why do you as the mother of parliamentary democracy allow President Papadopoulos ratting—as the right hon. Turkish troops to continue to occupy our island?” Gentleman said—on the deal. The Annan plan failed That is a very simple but profound question that continues because it was imposed—this is a lesson to be learned to be asked, and that we cannot simply ignore and by the United Nations—by the Secretary-General and become fatigued about through the passage of time. others, who sought to impose a deal through their own Parliament must stand up for Cyprus, which is why it is time limits on the Greek Cypriots. The plan came very so welcome that hon. Members from all parties are late in the day; indeed, it was seen at only five minutes to doing that today. Through the all-party parliamentary midnight by some people before they had to start group on Cyprus, we want to encourage more parliamentary making a decision on it. As the Prime Minister states in colleagues to become involved in the issue and join the a letter to me that has been published, we need to group. recognise that Also, we as Parliament must take more seriously our “The ethos of the current process, by Cypriots and for Cypriots, guarantor powers and responsibilities—indeed, the and without the imposition of deadlines distinguishes it clearly Government must also do so. We cannot sit on the from previous processes, such as the Annan Plan.” sidelines as a spectator. It is fundamentally enshrined Reference has also been made to the accession process, that we, as a guarantor power, must ensure the independence to suggestions that Cyprus alone is standing in the way of Cyprus and the sovereignty of the whole island. That and that the matter of Cyprus is a convenient excuse for must be fully respected. If, in any way beyond that, one other countries to object to Turkey’s accession. I support were to be fatigued about the Cyprus problem, one Turkey’s accession and realise that it has great advantages. would only have to read the article written by the right I welcome the Government’s commitment to Turkey’s hon. Member for Blackburn in The Times on 8 November accession and do not see it as being at odds with what to be energised. we want to do; indeed, I consider it to be an important The right hon. Gentleman’s influence is now confined part of ensuring that we receive justice for Cyprus. Let to the Back Benches and the media, and I am confident us not forget that Germany, Austria and France have he has no influence on the Government in this regard. I deep objections to Turkey’s accession, but they do not do not know whether his article was deliberately provocative, simply rely on the matter of Cyprus as a convenient but it has certainly served the useful purpose of galvanising excuse. support for reunification—not for partition. It is worth analysing the argument that has been made in the Mr Love: I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman’s media—I do not want to pay too much attention to speech. On Turkey’s accession to the EU, does he agree the article because I do not think it should be given that it will be important for there to be continuing more credibility than it is worth—to allow the Minister support from both Cyprus and Greece? The questions to respond and to contrast such opinions with the raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn 219WH Cyprus16 NOVEMBER 2010 Cyprus 220WH

[Mr Love] free access to three of their four villages. On 17 July, the army allowed Maronite inhabitants to attend a church (Mr Straw) will go a long way to undermining that service in one of those villages for the first time as a continuing support, on which Turkey’s membership will one-off. That is progress, but it was just a one-off. The crucially be dependent. Maronite community would like to know why they cannot have continued freedom of access and the basic Mr Burrowes: That is quite right. The argument has freedom to worship. They have that freedom in Kormakitis, been taken into terrain that is neither practical nor but why not in Asomatos and Karpeseia? lawful. We must properly recognise the parties whose There has been some progress. Crossings have been support is needed to move towards accession. opened in the north-west of the island, progress has We must also recognise the facts. The reality is that been made in relation to missing persons, with the the European Commission’s report published on Tuesday remains of 690 Cypriots being exhumed, and some 9 November admonished Turkey for not moving faster better access has been granted, but I encourage the to settle border disputes and normalise relations with Minister to press Turkey for better access to restricted Cyprus. That involves the Ankara protocol, which deals areas for investigations. with proper access to ports for Cypriot shipping. Cyprus In conclusion, it is important that we build a consensus. has been a member of the European Union since 2004, Indeed, the Prime Minister made that point in his letter: which is important. The Prime Minister made that “The UK’s politicians also have an important role to play in point clearly in his letter: supporting the efforts to build consensus”. “part of Turkey’s accession criteria also requires full, non- That is what we want to achieve. It is a consensus on the discriminatory implementation of the Additional Ankara Protocol, reunification of the island of Cyprus as one country. It including allowing access to its ports for Cypriot shipping. We is a single international personality, with a single Cypriot continue to press Turkey to do this.” citizenship, on a single united island. Mike Freer: I ask my hon. Friend to be slightly firmer on those requirements, and perhaps the Minister might 11.34 am also like to comment on them. Turkey must do more Mr Alan Meale (Mansfield) (Lab): This is the first than just allow access to the ports through the general opportunity I have had to congratulate you, Mr Brady, Ankara requirements. We must accept that it cannot on your exalted position—I trust that it is the result of a become a member of the EU while it has armed forces lack of available positions on the Front Bench given the occupying part of Cyprus. It is not just about access to poor coalition that is now in government. Hopefully, ports; all Turkish troops must be withdrawn from the you will one day tread the boards in that direction. island before we can proceed. Mr Graham Brady (in the Chair): Order. I did not Mr Burrowes: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who seek such a position, and I am very happy to be here makes an important point. It is not simply the case that chairing the debate. Cyprus is standing in the way of EU membership; it is up to Turkey to recognise that it must remove the army Mr Meale: I am pleased to hear it, Mr Brady, and I and that the island needs to be reunified. Turkey must trust that you will continue to exercise your great degree take those steps before it can move towards EU accession. of independence on political matters from such a prime The European Commission’s report also noted the position. Commission’s assessment that freedom of expression I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and needs to be strengthened in Turkey, both in law and in Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan) for securing this practice. It highlighted the fact that shortcomings remain excellent opportunity to discuss what is a very serious in the free exercise of religion, and reference was made subject. I should at the outset declare an interest: I have to disputes with neighbours, including Armenia. Those a small Cypriot community in my constituency, which are other factors that go beyond Cyprus. It is important my hon. Friend failed to mention in his list. As a result, to get the facts right when making the argument about I was invited to visit Cyprus in September for a day and the accession process. a half—travelling by second-class air fare—to speak at I believe that talk about partition is loose talk. Where the Morphou rally in the south of the republic. would the property rights of my constituents and others It is important that we are having the debate at the stand in a partitioned land? Where would the villagers start of a week in which, as we all know, serious talks whom I met on Saturday evening stand? They are will take place in New York. I must say to Members desperate to return and to have free movement, so that present, and to others who will read the pages of they can take up their proper rights to their villages. Hansard, that the whole question of Cyprus is expressed Where would villagers from Eptakomi, which I have as a problem for Cyprus, but—as I keep saying again visited, stand if they want to return, or those from and again—it is also a problem for Europe and, as my Famagusta, which has been mentioned, and from other hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr Love) said, places? What about the enclaved people in Rizokarpaso, for Turkey itself. whom I visited some years ago? They are few in number, Let us look at why Cyprus was allowed to join the but there are huge human rights concerns. Where would European Union, a move that was led by Britain. A they stand in a partitioned land? British Government argued that Cyprus should be in There is talk of two peoples and two states, but that Europe because it would have been ridiculous and folly does not fit with the reality, the ethics, the law or the to keep it out of Europe. We all know what Cyprus was practice. One example is the Maronite community, whom at the time of its entry. It was being treated as an I have mentioned in previous debates, who have not had offshore island by many, with 7,500 companies on its 221WH Cyprus16 NOVEMBER 2010 Cyprus 222WH shores. It had its own stock exchange and an independent those people. As I said earlier, that is one of the main link into the European banking system. It was probably reasons why we have supported the case for Cyprus to best placed for trade with the old eastern bloc, which enter the European Union. most of Europe was not. It had a fine relationship with However, Cyprus is still left in the abyss of division, areas of the middle east and an outstanding trading and we cannot agree that that should continue. I say to relationship with China and Africa, which many EU this British Government, as I said to the previous countries did not have. As I understand from scientific Government, who were of my political persuasion, that texts, Cyprus is one of only four places on the planet they cannot and should not stand idly by while individuals that have windows into space, and, communications take advantage of the situation in Cyprus. British citizens being so important for the future, it was important that take advantage of it—wrongly, in my opinion—but no that was kept in the European sphere, rather than being action is taken against them. I refer, of course, to independent outside it. If anyone has any doubt about British citizens who foolishly invest vast sums of money that, they will recall that it is for that reason that to get properties and land on the cheap and then seek to Britain’s listening and searching stations are still situated put them on the market to make money. That has to be on the island. stopped. Rather than actions to try to stop freedom in Last, but not least, there is the importance of oil and Cyprus, perhaps some action should be undertaken by gas, not only for Europe, but for the rest of the world. the British Government against British citizens who act People will have to consider the importance of the in that way. European oil and gas pipeline, which is now being driven down to the shores of Greece, where further Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): I refer hon. pipelines will be fixed that go across to Limassol in the Members to my interests in respect of Cyprus. Does the republic. Similarly, pipelines will be coming down to hon. Gentleman agree that, when an agreement is reached, join the central European pipeline from the Caspian those people who decided to invest in or purchase sea, and they will link in to guarantee oil and gas for property in northern Cyprus should not be recompensed Europe. Cyprus will shortly become the gas station of by either the Greek Cypriot people or the British Europe, and possibly the world, which is another reason Government? why it was important that it came into the EU. The talks that will take place this week in New York Mr Meale: All I can say is, “Well said.” I agree with are very important. Although I praise greatly my colleague, every sinew of that argument and would take it even the chairman of the Commonwealth Parliamentary further. The hon. Gentleman may recall that the European Association, those who argue in favour of the Annan Court of Justice recently made a decision in the Loizidou plan should be asked which Annan plan they favour. case, in which a property had been taken over in the Annan 1 had some important aspects that people might north and used for 27 or 28 years. The ECJ said that a have used for the basis of negotiation, but after time large sum of money should be given in compensation there came Annan 2, Annan 3, Annan 4 and Annan 5, just for use of the property and then, whenever the stage and each one was worse than the one before. is reached at which property is handed back, no price In this week before the talks commence, we have had should be paid for that property portfolio. The same a deliberate provocation by my right hon. Friend the thing should apply to others, and I say that in the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw)—a colleague from knowledge that a handful of my constituents have been this side of the House, in this place—which was an foolhardy enough to invest in Cyprus. They were told attempt not only to influence the talks in New York, but clearly and repeatedly, time and again, by the British to set in motion a political dialogue in Europe that Government—and I said this in local papers when the would call for partition. No one with whom I have issue came up—that they would be foolish to invest in discussed the issue of Cyprus has argued such a case. I such a way, but greed and avarice took over and they trust those of my colleagues who say that the announcement foolishly did so. They had one sole objective, which was by that individual two weeks earlier that he would take to make money for themselves. the opportunity to speak freely around the world, and To conclude—I know that several other people wish possibly be paid for doing so, was not one of the to speak—there can be no veto on full EU membership reasons that he tip-toed in such a sordid manner into for the Republic of Cyprus, or on its recognition by the that area of political discussion—I hope not. I met him United Nations as an individual nation. I doubt that last night in this place and left him with no shadow of a there would be any support in this or any future British doubt about what I thought of his position. I fervently Government for partition of the island. We have fought countered each of his arguments, and we accepted that for years to try to get a solution to the problem. We we would continue to disagree. fought in Germany to get what we thought was the last Let us look at why there needs to be a conclusion to remaining wall in Europe pulled down, and I do not the sordid affair of Turkey’s involvement in the independent believe that we would go for partition in Cyprus. country of Cyprus. Turkey has no right whatever to be In the course of achieving freedom for Cyprus, there there. Anyone who has any doubt about that should are projects that are trying to identify the remains of look back only 100 years in history. They will find that people who were killed, but we must insist that work is the Turkish state sold the island to Britain for 110 pieces done on other areas of concern. Many people are still of gold—that is the reality. Turkey sold it many years missing, and we must work with the Turkish Government ago and gave up its interest in it. and insist that they provide the knowledge that they Since that time, successive British Governments have have of the whereabouts of missing persons. They should participated in the life of Cyprus in a positive way. They perhaps also suggest that leading religious figures and built good institutions and mechanisms that are still bodies—Greek and Turk, Muslim and Christian—appeal alive on the island today—there was good purpose in to their leadership to reveal any information they have. 223WH Cyprus16 NOVEMBER 2010 Cyprus 224WH

[Mr Meale] guarantor power will try to exercise some leverage on other guarantor powers, and also on the two communities As any of us who have lost loved ones in the past taking part in the direct negotiations. It is important to know, if there is any shade of doubt about what occurred, be impartial in that regard. Everyone says that we need we think about it all the time. If individuals are missing, to get into a proper negotiation and, to do that, equal we live with that on a daily basis. It is no different for pressure on all parties to the negotiation is required. We the hundreds of thousands of people—not just mothers have to have, as the United Nations states, the courage and fathers but brothers, sisters, cousins and nieces—who to “break the stalemate”, but the stalemate is not broken have missing relatives in Cyprus. by trying to break one of the parties to the negotiating The free world must also make certain demands process. about the kind of solution that is achieved. It cannot be The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was placed right that 180,000 settlers have been moved from the under the spotlight last week by my right hon. Friend mainland of Turkey into Cyprus and told that the the Member for Blackburn, and I was reassured by his property on which they live is now their own, when they response: have no right to it whatever. Those people have to “I do not want to say anything at this moment that might make return. those talks more difficult.”—[Official Report, 9 November 2010; Last but not least—most important of all—the tens Vol. 518, c. 139.] of thousands of troops who illegally occupy the north Those are surely wise words at this time, and I only wish of the island have to be taken back to the mainland. that others had taken that lesson to heart. There can be no peaceful solution in Europe while What if we ended the isolation of the northern part troops from a country that is not a member of the of Cyprus? I am often told that its having access to a European family reside on European shores. That is the market of the European Union would make a tremendous reality. They have to go back, and I ask this Government difference, and that the very low living standard of the to plead with Turkey to start that process. people there would suddenly be transformed. The collective 11.47 am evidence is that the most likely way to transform the economy of the north of Cyprus is to find a solution to Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): I, too, the division of the island. That will achieve more than welcome you to the Chair, Mr Brady. This is the first any other step. We have to accept that if the area is not debate I have attended for which you have been in that reunified, and does not get the support of the Cypriots position. I refer to my entry in the Register of Members’ on the rest of the island, it will be a very long time Financial Interests, just in case I have one in respect of before the northern part of the island can look towards this issue. European-style standards of living. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley It has also to be said that the north of the island and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan), who represents remains very dependent on subsidies from Turkey, and a part of the country that is dear to my heart. I that will not change in the short or medium term. congratulate him mainly on the timing of this debate, Although the isolation might be ended, there are factors which comes just in advance of the forthcoming United that increase the isolation from Cyprus itself. Mention Nations-sponsored meetings in New York. has been made of the changing demographics in Cyprus: I start today from the premise that the coalition Turkish Cypriots are leaving the island and people from Government, the previous Government and I have all the mainland are still coming in. That will do nothing to been committed to Turkey’s entry to the European reverse the isolation; it will, I would argue, increase it. Union. Indeed, as I mentioned earlier, Greece and The isolation is, of course, also strengthened by certain Cyprus have also been committed to its entry. We take politicians—we have all heard the comments. Mr Denktas that position to reject the crude anti-Muslim feeling cast a very long shadow during his 22 years as leader of that one sees across Europe—it has no place in a the Turkish Cypriot community. In the statements that decision in respect of Turkey—but also because Turkey’s are made—and we have heard some recently—it is said membership would be good for the EU and for Turkey. that there are two peoples, two languages and two The question is how we achieve its membership. cultures and there must, therefore, be two states. We The first thing—I say this with some passion—is that reject that idea, but if they do not, it is hard to see how we do not issue threats about a two-state solution in they will prevent the Turkish Cypriot community from Cyprus. I was rather surprised by the mention that was continuing to leave the island. The Turkish Cypriot made of the role of my right hon. Friend the Member community recognises its long-standing bonds with the for Blackburn (Mr Straw). People who pay attention to rest of the Cypriot community on the island, and would these matters will of course know that there has been an continue to experience the isolation. article on them by Martin Kettle in The Guardian, and a What are the consequences of a two-state solution? I leader in the Financial Times, which show the somewhat turn to the Financial Times leader writer: dubious consistency over the years. I read the articles with some care, and was reminded of the negotiations “A two-state solution is not an ideal outcome.”— on the referendum and the Annan 5 proposals. The one a bit of an understatement by a leader writer— lesson that we should learn from that experience is that “It would impose grave costs on the Greek Cypriots in terms of to issue unveiled threats and to try to maximise the maintaining high levels of military expenditure to counter the pressure on one side rather than the other is almost perceived Turkish threat. In the short term, it would deal yet certain to be counter-productive, and to fail. another blow to Turkey’s prospects of joining the European The first thing that I would say to the Minister, Union.” therefore, is that, when the parties assemble at the So, let us look at the matter in slightly more detail. Yes, United Nations, I hope that Britain in its role as a the solution would be a major blow to Turkey’s membership, 225WH Cyprus16 NOVEMBER 2010 Cyprus 226WH and I wish that my right hon. Friend the Member for [MR ANDREW TURNER in the Chair] Blackburn had thought about that. Would it inflame relations? Undoubtedly, and not just those between the Cyprus has faced many invasions its long and continuous Governments of Cyprus and Turkey, but relations that history. The difference in the experience since 1974 is have been unfrozen in recent years and have enabled that 40% of the island is divided from the other part, many people from the north of the island to cross the based on people’s origin, religion and nationality, effectively border to work in the south. expelling the Greek Cypriots from their own homes in the occupied areas and moving Turkish Cypriots into A two-state solution would inflame relations between the occupied part of the island. The right hon. Member Greece and Turkey, which have, of course, been a major for Blackburn (Mr Straw) misses the point. More than a problem in recent years, but it would also increase quarter of the population of Cyprus and many people instability in the eastern Mediterranean. What would who live in this country are still experiencing the effects the consequence of that be? It would not be just Cyprus of the invasion. They are not allowed to live in their that was building up its military arms; we would see, I legally owned home, not able to cultivate their land or suspect, just a little bit of an arms race in the eastern to worship in their churches and not even allowed to Mediterranean. What would the impact on NATO be? tend the graves of their loved ones, which is most Such impact is one of the major reasons why the distressing for a lot of people. Americans are so keen to find a solution, as is, of course, the impact on the island itself, with the continuing exodus of Turkish Cypriots. Such a solution would have Jim Sheridan: Much mention has been made of the a negative impact on Turkey’s membership of the EU comments of my right hon. Friend the Member for and would give heart to those European Union member Blackburn. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is states that are not really concerned about the situation unfortunate that my right hon. Friend did not take the in Cyprus. As was mentioned by the hon. Member for opportunity to attend this debate and share his pearls of Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes), there are other wisdom with us? reasons why France, Austria and other European Union states continue to object to Turkey’s application. Mr Offord: It certainly is a great shame that the right We need to unify those states in support of EU membership hon. Gentleman did not attend today. [Interruption.] I for Turkey, and we do not achieve that by ostracising am informed that he was, in fact, invited to come along. Cyprus, or by ostracising Greece, at this particular Perhaps he had something else to do in the House, I do time. not know, but it would have been useful if he had come along and clarified his comments, particularly as a I finish by asking two things. First, I ask my hon. former Minister. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr David) please to For the first time in history, the people of Cyprus give us a defined statement that the Opposition parties have been left, de facto, separated into homogenous continue to support the negotiating process and take on racial, religious and geographical areas. That continues board the Foreign Secretary’s wise words. Secondly, I to happen, despite the General Assembly and the Security ask that the Government not just wholeheartedly support Council of the United Nations and other organisations the negotiating process—I know that they do—but that adopting resolutions that condemn the Turkish invasion they do so while recognising that Britain, because of its of Cyprus in 1974 and support the independence and unique position and its guarantor power status, and territorial integrity of the Republic of Cyprus. because it is a member of the Security Council and a critically important member of the EU, should do The division planned by Ankara was strengthened in more. We need to kick-start that negotiating process 1983 by the unilateral declaration of independence by when it happens next week, but let us be in absolutely the Turkish Cypriot leadership, with Turkey’s no doubt that it is only that session that can lead to a encouragement and support, and the establishment of viable, long-term, stable solution in the eastern the so-called Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. It Mediterranean. Frankly, talk of any other issue is wild is worth stating that the international community directly and unnecessary; we all need to get behind the Government, and categorically condemned this secessionist action. the two parties, the other guarantor powers and the The Security Council stated that the act was “legally United Nations to ensure that this succeeds where it has invalid” and demanded the revocation of the “unilateral failed in the past. declaration of independence”. As a result, the illegal occupying regime has not been recognised by any state other than Turkey, the occupying power. In addition to the human tragedy, I have seen for 11.59 am myself the cultural and religious destruction that is taking place. Hon. Members have spoken about recent Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): I welcome this political issues and the talks, which I welcome, but I debate, secured by the hon. Member for Paisley and shall focus on the continuing destruction of the history Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan). I, like him and and culture of the island. The occupying force in the some of my colleagues, have been involved in the Cyprus north appears to be working to erase any reference to debate for many years and I often feel, with some anything Greek or to Christianity in the north part of despondency, that we do not make further progress, the island. The Turkish occupying force has replaced all even after the annual Trafalgar square rally and our Greek names of towns, villages and roads with Turkish visit to the Morphou rally in Cyprus. I was therefore names. At the same time, I am concerned that Neolithic pleased that the coalition Government outlined, in its settlements are being destroyed, such as the one at document for governing, that Cyprus will be taken Apostolos Andreas-Kastros, which, for those who seriously. cannot understand my poor Greek, is on the eastern tip 227WH Cyprus16 NOVEMBER 2010 Cyprus 228WH

[Mr Offord] process. Thirdly and finally, I urge the British Government to secure an agreement that is acceptable to all the of the island. Prehistoric and historical towns, such as islanders—not just the Greek Cypriots, but the Turkish the famous site of Enkomi and the ancient city states of Cypriots as well. We want to be even-handed and open Salamina and Soloi, are being left to the ravages of with all islanders and to remove the only divided island time. left in Europe, so that we can have the peace and Clear and undeniable desecration is occurring in churches. security in Europe that we want. This year, when I took the opportunity to cross the line, I visited the occupied town of Morphou and saw for 12.7 pm myself churches being used for so-called alternative Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): We have had an activities—for example, we saw one church being used important debate this morning. I commend the tone in as a dance studio and another being used as warehouse. which it has been conducted: serious, practical and Some churches are derelict and left dilapidated. What honest. I particularly congratulate my hon. Friend the shocked me most was desecration of the churchyards: I Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan) saw one being used by the fire service, which parked fire on securing the debate and on his opening speech, in trucks on graveyards; the second was not only left in a which he showed his knowledge of and passion for the desecrated state, but was being used as an army base. I subject. He emphasised that we need a balanced approach cannot understand how an occupying force could allow to Cyprus and touched on the complexity of the issues its army to do that. confronting us, particularly missing persons and property Cyprus is often referred to as the crossroads of ownership. Indeed, he is a true and honourable friend of civilisation. What I witnessed there were not the actions Cyprus. of a civilised nation, but shocking and disrespectful The hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) behaviour by an invading force. made a good speech, in which he warned us to be wary of what is sometimes termed “Cyprus fatigue”. We Mr Meale: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s must all ensure that we are fully engaged with the issues accurate descriptions. Other descriptions have been given and that we take the matter forward collectively. The by Members of Parliament who have crossed over, hon. Gentleman, and others, referred particularly to including of former churches being used for animal remarks by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn husbandry. Does the hon. Gentleman know that the (Mr Straw). I should like to make it clear that in both Leventis Foundation, which conducted an examination his article in The Times and the interview on the “Today” of stolen artefacts—my hon. Friend the Member for programme, my right hon. Friend was expressing his Paisley and Renfrewshire North mentioned that more entirely personal view. It is not Opposition policy.Labour’s than 1,500 have been stolen and shipped abroad—found policy, I believe, is unchanged. We are focused foursquare that many were found in huge numbers, including in the on ensuring that maximum support is given to the talks walls of churches, with references dating back as far as at the United Nations in New York this week. We St Paul? All had been stolen. Whole walls were stolen encourage both parties to work together harmoniously and exported to the United States and other places for to come to a just, fair solution. sale. We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Mr Offord: The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting, Mansfield (Mr Meale), who talked about the abyss of useful point. I am aware of some of the artefacts that partition—a highly graphic way to put it, and I am sure have been removed from the island. In a judgment of that we are all mindful of what he said. We also heard the United States Court of Appeal in 1990, the judge from my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton ordered the return of the Kanakaria mosaics to Cyprus. (Mr Love), whose wise words stressed the need for us to The president of the Court Appeal, Chief Judge Bauer, be impartial in ensuring that both communities together mentioned a characteristic quotation from Lord Byron, reach a mutually agreeable solution. The hon. Member which I think the hon. Gentleman will find interesting, for Hendon (Mr Offord) powerfully expressed his concern describing the Turkish invasion of Corinth in 1715. Of about the destruction of artefacts in the north of Cyprus the many churches and monuments that lie today in and the need to protect places of worship. ruins on Cyprus, Bauer says: We are at an important stage in what will, we hope, be “As Byron laments, war can reduce our grandest and most moves towards peace and reconciliation in Cyprus. I sacred temples to mere ‘fragments of stone’. Only the lowest of emphasise that Labour believes in a comprehensive, just scoundrels attempt to reap personal gain from this collective loss. and lasting settlement for the whole island. Our view is Those who plunder the churches and monuments of war-torn that only a settlement that is negotiated by Cypriots for Cyprus hoarded their relics away, and are now smuggling and Cypriots, and acceptable to both sides, will ensure the selling them for large sums, are just blackguards.” future of Cyprus. We support a unified Cyprus and a That description could apply to people who are continuing Cypriot-led process under the auspices of the United in that fashion today. Nations. We do not support a solution that is imposed I say to the British coalition Government that in the or enforced by others. The United Kingdom must offer talks about the accession of Turkey to the EU, there are its full support to the negotiations that all Cypriots red lines on which hon. Members here today will insist. want to succeed. First, land and property must be returned to its rightful When Labour was in Government, we proposed that owners without compensation being paid to those people 50% of the land currently in UK sovereign bases in who decided, through greed and avarice to invest their Cyprus be made available to a united island once a moneys in the northern part of Cyprus. Secondly, the resolution was found. We hope that that proposal will people who are missing need to be identified and returned be taken forward by the current Government when the to their loved ones, so that they can start the grieving two sides resume their talks. 229WH Cyprus16 NOVEMBER 2010 Cyprus 230WH

12.11 pm reunites the island. The Government support the resolution passed by the Council of Europe in July 2008 that The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): I called for additional measures to congratulate the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire “support the revitalisation and promotion of the cultural, religious North (Jim Sheridan) on securing the debate. He has a and linguistic heritage of the Maronites,”. long track record in this House of interest in and support for Cyprus. As the hon. Member for Caerphilly Ian Lavery: Does the Minister agree that not only do (Mr David) said, the contributions to the debate have we have a moral obligation to support a solution in been thoughtful and forthright in equal measure. I Cyprus on a one-state basis, but we also have a legal thank the hon. Members for Mansfield (Mr Meale) and obligation based on the treaty of guarantee and the for Edmonton (Mr Love), and my hon. Friends the memorandums that we have signed with Cyprus? Does Members for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) and for that differ from what he has just said? Hendon (Mr Offord) for their contributions. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and Mr Lidington: No, it does not. The hon. Gentleman Golders Green (Mike Freer) and the hon. Member for draws me on to comments that I was about to make. Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) for their interventions. Far be it for me to criticise a distinguished elder I welcome the opportunity to discuss Cyprus and I statesman such as the right hon. Member for Blackburn have listened carefully to the points raised during the (Mr Straw), but I am happy to make it clear that the debate. The Government support a just and lasting Government’s position is to support a bi-zonal, settlement on the island. As has been said, that was an bi-communal federation with political equality for a important manifesto commitment and a priority recognised united Cyprus. We do not support partition. As the in the coalition’s programme for Government. hon. Member for Wansbeck has said, as one of the guarantor powers, we are bound by treaty not only to I am sure that the House will agree that the status resist but to prohibit any step that would lead either to quo is neither satisfactory nor adequate for any community the partition of Cyprus or to its unification with any in Cyprus. Reference has been made to the plight of other country. The new British Government remain in Greek Cypriots, particularly those in displaced families, support of that position on the present and future and, in fairness, to the isolation and economic status of Cyprus. underdevelopment of the Turkish Cypriot community. Only a united island within the European Union will Mr Meale: Does the Minister agree that there would provide the long-term peace and security that all Cypriots be a great danger if Britain’s policy moved away from deserve, as well as bring economic development and the one that he has expressed? If we break the treaty prosperity to the region. The hon. Member for Mansfield signed in the ‘60s that gave independence to Cyprus, it was right to draw our attention to the tremendous would break all other parts of the treaty. That could economic opportunities in the eastern Mediterranean, affect the British bases on the island. which could be capitalised on to the mutual benefit of all Cypriot communities, of Turkey and of Greece, if a Mr Lidington: As a general principle, if one signs and just and lasting settlement can be achieved. ratifies a treaty, one should stick by its obligations. That is what we intend to do. A settlement would enable a generation of people to Important British interests are at stake in the search find a way to close a traumatic chapter in their lives, for a settlement in Cyprus. The amount of human particularly by addressing the difficult issue of property misery in Cyprus, whichever community we are talking and the isolation of Turkish Cypriots. I believe that about, would in itself justify making the search for a reunification would also provide the space for civil settlement a political priority; but there are also hard-headed society to flourish in the north and south of the island, British national interests at stake. Although a peaceful and for the leaders of the communities to spend more and lasting settlement in Cyprus would not, as others time helping to find solutions to global issues, and have said, remove all obstacles to Turkish accession to ensure that the Cypriot people as a whole come out of the European Union, it would remove one of the most the current global economic downturn well placed to significant blocks to that process. I believe and the enjoy a prosperous and sustainable future. In my view, Government believe that Turkish membership of the those benefits far outweigh the admitted difficulties of European Union is in the interests not just of the UK, the compromises that would be necessary to reach a but of Europe as a whole. A settlement would also settlement. make possible the effective co-operation between NATO Let there be no doubt that the United Kingdom and the European Union that has been impossible for Government are committed to supporting the ongoing so many years, because of the stand-off between Turkey settlement negotiations under the auspices of the United and Cyprus over the events of 1974 and what has Nations, and particularly of Alexander Downer, which happened since. are aimed at achieving a settlement based on a bi-zonal, I hope that both sides in the negotiations and especially bi-communal federation with political equality. That at the forthcoming meeting in New York can continue political equality must be accorded not only—although to show both flexibility and leadership. The leaders most obviously—to the Greek and Turkish Cypriot have the full support of the international community communities, but also to the smaller minorities on the and they need to grasp the opportunity to find a solution island. My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate, before that window closes. chairman of the British-Cyprus all-party group, reminded us of the Maronite community. The position of the Mr Love: One of the concerns expressed widely within Maronite community and its members’ entitlement to Cyprus is that Cyprus is not considered important cultural and religious freedom of expression will be enough internationally for a solution to be found. In fully resolved only by a comprehensive settlement that reflection of that, would it not be sensible for the British 231WH Cyprus16 NOVEMBER 2010 Cyprus 232WH

[Mr Love] during President Gül’s visit to London last week, and I did so with Turkish Ministers when I attended the Government to make greater use of the European Union Bosphorus conference in Istanbul in October. to try to bring parties together and to pressure all the Turkey has an important role to play in encouraging parties to negotiate, and would it not be much more the Turkish Cypriots to grasp the opportunity of a sensible if the three guarantor powers, of which we are settlement and to ensure that the negotiations succeed. one, met to try to co-ordinate the putting of pressure on A settlement will deliver economic benefits to Turkish the two parties at the negotiations in New York? Cypriots and end their sense of isolation once and for all, which is a key Turkish objective. A settlement in Mr Lidington: I would not rule out a meeting of the Cyprus will, we believe, be of great benefit to Turkey as guarantor powers at some stage, if that would be helpful. a whole and her ambition eventually to join the European The hon. Gentleman reminds me that in his speech he Union. called for vigorous diplomacy on the part of the British A number of hon. Members talked about particular Government. I do not dissent from what he said, except aspects of the tragedy that has afflicted Cyprus for that I would add two words of caution. First, by virtue more than 30 years. Some referred to the damage done of our history and status as a guarantor power and our to cultural sites and places of worship. There is no possession of the sovereign base areas, we of course doubt that that damage took place, particularly during have a particular interest in Cyprus and the search for a 1974 and in the immediate aftermath. I have made note settlement there; but sometimes, precisely because of of the points that were made particularly by my hon. our history, we are not necessarily the most welcome Friend the Member for Hendon and by the hon. Member source of advice, particularly public advice. Sometimes for Paisley and Renfrewshire North about the alleged it is better if others—in this case, the United Nations desecration of cemeteries and church graveyards. I will envoy, Mr Downer—to take the lead. It is very important take advice on how we might raise that issue. that the negotiations are seen to be, in the end, in the ownership of the Cypriots themselves, because unless Jim Sheridan: For the record, I point out that I have there is buy-in from both communities in Cyprus, a passed on the photographs that were taken recently at settlement will not endure. the Morphou rally, which demonstrate the clear indignation Secondly, although the search for a settlement in caused by the vandalism that has taken place. Cyprus is seen by the Government as an important political priority, the hon. Gentleman will appreciate Mr Lidington: I understand the point that the hon. that in the conduct of foreign affairs, just as in the Gentleman makes. It is important, as a means of helping conduct of domestic politics sometimes, it is best to talk to build community reconciliation, that we support candidly to friends, allies and partners behind closed confidence-building measures at local level and take doors, rather than through a megaphone. We have to account of the reality of the grief still experienced by suit the technique to the occasion. many individuals and families. Action in respect of the proper treatment of cultural and religious sites and Mr Burrowes: May I press the Minister further on the co-operation in the search for missing persons are matters details of the relationship with Turkey? The hand of that the British Government take very seriously indeed. friendship has gone out from the Prime Minister to We have given particular support to the work of the Turkey. Will the Minister be able to draw attention European Union’s Committee on Missing Persons and to the role that we play in terms of pressing the case for we donate to its annual budget. As hon. Members Cyprus? know, the CMP has so far found just under 700 sets of human remains, both Greek and Turkish Cypriot. Mr Lidington: I will come to that very point in a moment. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding Mr Love: Will the Minister give way? me of it. Before I do so, I want to deal with a point that the hon. Member for Caerphilly raised by saying that Mr Lidington: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, the coalition Government have maintained the offer I will not, because I am getting very near the end of my made by the previous Labour Government to cede time. nearly half the sovereign base area territories in the I welcome the commitment of the Cypriot leaders event of an agreed, negotiated solution in Cyprus. from both communities to the current negotiations. I shall now respond to what my hon. Friend just said. Their meeting with UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon We welcome the support that Turkey has given the this Thursday is a positive step, but there is a great deal settlement process. Prime Minister Erdogan has publicly of further work to do to maintain the momentum and stated his full support for the Cyprus settlement process to ensure that the important opportunity to achieve a on a number of occasions, including in March this year, strong and lasting peace is not lost. These are different when he confirmed—this is an important point—Turkey’s from previous negotiations. It is now in the hands of the acceptance of the UN principles under which the process leaders themselves to reach agreement. I agree that takes place. We regularly discuss all aspects of the there can be no arbitration or tight deadlines, but a Cyprus issue with Turkey. As my hon. Friend the Member purely open-ended process will not benefit the Cypriots for Finchley and Golders Green said in an intervention, themselves. I urge all parties to engage positively and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister did so publicly flexibly in negotiations and to grasp the opportunity to as well as privately when he visited Turkey earlier this secure the benefits that all communities in Cyprus so year. Most recently, we raised the subject of Cyprus richly deserve. 233WH 16 NOVEMBER 2010 Yorkshire Water 234WH

Yorkshire Water explain why the water in Mr Georgiou’s home is nothing to do with it. I have here a huge file of letters, which make up a kind of comedy. Yorkshire Water explains 12.29 pm that the land around Mr Georgiou’s house is damp. Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): I am pleased Well, it is damp in the winter when it rains and dry in to have secured this Adjournment debate on Yorkshire the summer when it does not rain. The correspondence Water and the problem of leakages in the region and in then states that it is drains water and that other homes my constituency in particular. have been affected. That shows a tenuous connection with truth, given that neighbours and previous inhabitants Sometimes, an individual case illuminates the landscape of 69 Foljambe road confirm that it is as dry as any of powerful organisations that, although they may genuinely other home, save for when the rain becomes so torrential believe themselves to be working in a responsible, correct that all Rotherham is damp for days afterwards. and legal manner, do not realise that by a sequence of events and decisions, they end up treating an ordinary—I I will not burden the Chamber by reading out the do not much like that word—citizen of our nation whole correspondence, but I will quote from Yorkshire unfairly. This is the story of a little man confronting a Water’s own assessment: giant, powerful conglomerate that is trampling over his “Some of the cellar water examples are in the range expected rights. of mains water”. Mr George Georgiou is a British citizen of Cypriot It then quotes from the Yorkshire Water excuse book, origin who lives in Foljambe road, a modest road in my as written by its Czech consultant, one Mr Kafka: constituency. He came to Rotherham in 2007 to buy a “because it is possible to propose other explanations of certain little fish and chip shop at the bottom of that road, sample results does not mean that these other explanations are which produces as good a cod and chips as one can get true.” in Rotherham, a town that is widely acknowledged to I have tried to work my head around that statement, of have the best fish and chip shops in Yorkshire. which the former US Secretary of State for Defence, There was flooding in other parts of the constituency Mr Rumsfeld, might have been proud. In plain English, in 2007. Early in 2008, Yorkshire Water carried out Yorkshire Water was saying that anything that it says is some mains work at the top of Mr. Georgiou’s road. true and anything that one of its clients says, even on Ever since, he has experienced flooding in his basement. the basis of independent advice, can be ignored. He lives at the foot of the road, which is about 200 or Mr Georgiou is a determined and reasonable man. 300 yards long. When the water goes downhill from any From his e-mails, it is clear that he is not the cross mains, it ends up in his basement. constituent whom all hon. Members know only too To set the scene, Yorkshire Water is the monopoly well. He has sought advice from and sent samples to utility supplier of water in the region. It wields its outside experts and assessors. They have all come back monopoly power from a product that falls for free from and said that they think it is mains water from Yorkshire the sky. It makes handsome profits; last year it made Water. At his own expense, Mr Georgiou has had his £116 million. It operates in a closed market with no basement and the land around it dug up in search of the competition, and it pays its top executives well. Its water leak. Yorkshire Water insists that he is responsible chairman, Kevin Whiteman, to whom I shall return, for the leak because it has nothing to do with water at was paid a little short of £500,000 last year. Despite the the foot of Foljambe road. profits and the pay of its bosses, Yorkshire Water has In a letter dated 6 October 2008, Mr Trevor Craddy the worst performance on leakage of any water company of Yorkshire Water complains about Mr Georgiou having in Britain. Ofwat last week condemned the firm for hired a private plumber, at his own expense, to dig up losing 295 million litres a day through leakages last the land to find where the water was coming from: year. Some of that 295 million litres has flooded the “One would have expected that the private plumber having basement of my constituent’s home. been unable to find a leak would have stopped digging at that For nearly three years, Mr Georgiou has, with my point.” help, asked Yorkshire Water to accept its responsibilities. To stop digging is advice that Yorkshire Water might That giant monopoly has treated a man who is struggling well have taken. For a small amount of money in to keep his head above water—almost literally—and his relation to the firm’s profits and salary levels, it could business alive with nothing short of contempt. Following have tanked the cellar and helped Mr Georgiou to focus the classic behaviour of the bully, the more that on his fish and chips, rather than making him into a Mr Georgiou has protested, the more the bullying has Rotherham David taking on the Goliath of this increased. unaccountable, rich monopoly. Mr Georgiou has had to install a pump in the basement The environmental health department of Rotherham of his house and shop, as if it were a ship of Nelson’s metropolitan borough council has investigated the leak time that needed continuous pumping to keep it dry. He and has shown that the water does not come from its hardly dares to leave his home for the fear that the water pipes. All I have sought to do is to help my constituent, may rise and cause an electrical short. It is surreal to go in a classic example of what an MP does at the constituency into a modest home at the foot of a road in Rotherham level. I have no axe to grind against Yorkshire Water; it and find, beneath a ground-floor fish and chip shop, the is a good company in many ways, save for the wretched steady ingress of water, with a pump working away and problem of endless leaks. I have secured this debate to buckets present day and night. ask the Minister to examine why it is that there is no Like all water companies, Yorkshire Water has a effective mechanism to hold to account such powerful, statutory duty to repair and prevent leaks. Instead of rich monopolies. They have a licence to make money so doing, it has come up with excuse after excuse to and pay pharaonic executive salaries, beyond public 235WH Yorkshire Water16 NOVEMBER 2010 Yorkshire Water 236WH

[Mr Denis MacShane] to come together and find a deal. I could not believe that the thousands of pounds of investigations, documents, control or accountability. Ofwat appears to be powerless technicians, lawyers and staff hours spent saying no to —we have written to it. Rotherham Council is powerless. this man could possibly be justified. For probably a The Consumer Council for Water is helpless. 10th of the collective money spent by Yorkshire Water On 17 November 2008, Mr David Freeman of the in denying him his rights, it could have tanked the cellar Consumer Council for Water in Yorkshire wrote: and made good the problem. “We do not feel able to tell Mr Georgiou that we are satisfied All right hon. and hon. Members deal daily with that the problem is not mains water”. difficult cases and we make our representations as best we can. However, I have never come across such a That double negative flatly contradicts the constant line shocking example of the mistreatment of an individual from Yorkshire Water that the water that is constantly without any resources or private wealth. The entire going into Mr Georgiou’s home, that is making his life a bureaucracy of Yorkshire Water has been deployed misery and that is stopping him from developing his against Mr Georgiou. All he wants is for the firm to small business, has nothing to do with it. The Consumer accept its clear responsibility and duty so he can carry Council for Water, like Ofwat, has no power to compel on his business without manning the pumps in his cellar Yorkshire Water to behave responsibly. all the time. I have tried to work with the company. I have had I do not have time to read out all the letters and several conversations with Kevin Whiteman, who was reports cranked out by Yorkshire Water as it spent Yorkshire Water’s chief executive officer and is now its thousands of pounds and hour upon hour of its employees’ chairman. In summer 2009, he agreed to make a joint time in order to crush Mr Georgiou. Instead of producing visit to Mr Georgiou’s home, but that never happened. his fish and chips, he has had to engage in this lonely In what I thought was a reasonable way forward, he battle for justice. The latest twist to the tale is a county agreed to arbitration. I recommended that warmly to court civil case—again, Yorkshire Water would rather Mr Georgiou. Naturally, Mr Georgiou wanted his team spend a fortune on lawyers than simply accept its of experts to discuss the matter with Yorkshire Water’s responsibility. experts. One does not go into an arbitration by oneself to face a giant company that has a battery of scientists, I finish, frankly, in despair. The Minister is a decent technicians, lawyers and public relations people. man and, as a constituency MP, he can probably tell Mr Georgiou and I said to Mr Whiteman that we would other dire stories of how powerful, unaccountable go to arbitration. We laid out the issues that we thought monopolies trample over the rights of citizens. He has needed to be discussed, presented our papers and notified no executive powers, as a Minister, to compel Yorkshire him of our team of expert witnesses. Water to do anything. I do not know if the new Government’s ideas of localism or the big society can Suddenly, however, Yorkshire Water and Mr Whiteman alter the balance of power between the citizen and the withdrew their offer of arbitration. I cannot, in my monopoly or quasi-monopoly companies, which have 16 years as an MP, remember such an example of bad so much power without responsibility in our land. faith and breach of trust by the CEO of a powerful monopoly. He offered arbitration, but the moment it I regret having to bring the matter to the attention of was clear that arbitration would not deliver the result he the House—I do not want a war of words with Yorkshire wanted, he withdrew it. To withdraw that offer of Water—but my duty to my constituent is clear. I hope arbitration, made to me and which I persuaded that Mr Georgiou can feel at least that his Parliament Mr Georgiou to accept, shows an indifference to fair and MP can be voices against what I believe is a great play and to a basic level of respect for a British citizen wrong done to him. I am grateful to have had the who has nowhere else to go if he wants his water privilege of securing this Adjournment debate today. delivered—Yorkshire Water is, of course, a monopoly supplier. 12.44 pm That is why I have sought this Adjournment debate. I want to send a message to Yorkshire Water, on behalf of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for all the residents of Yorkshire, that the loss of 295 million Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): litres a day from its pipes is not acceptable. The company I start by congratulating the right hon. Member for and industry were privatised more than two decades Rotherham (Mr MacShane) on securing the debate. ago. At the time, we were told that the companies had to Without commenting on his specific case, I also congratulate take over from municipal water works engineers, who him on fulfilling the House’s fine tradition of right hon. were just paid ordinary salaries, and that a shareholding and hon. Members standing up for their constituents structure with a board of directors and non-executive when they feel they have been wronged. It might have directors, and paying the chief executive and the chairman been a tad easier to give the right hon. Gentleman a loads of money, would improve things. Yet here we are, fuller response had I known he would raise that specific 20 years later, and the leakage rate is as bad as ever, case, but I will do my best to talk about it. In my early which is a huge waste of a precious resource when we remarks, I will set that case in context. are worrying about water shortages across the world The control of leakage from water company distribution and, frankly, not the best of tributes to the notion that networks is a vital component in maintaining an adequate privatisation of a monopoly public utility is the magic supply-demand balance in the supply of water. The solution to making companies really efficient. failure of some water companies consistently to meet I sought an Adjournment debate with reluctance. I leakage targets undermines efforts to convince customers had obtained one some months ago, but withdrew it, to adopt water-efficient behaviours. It is clear from the because I still wanted Yorkshire Water and Mr Georgiou views expressed in the current water White Paper online 237WH Yorkshire Water16 NOVEMBER 2010 Yorkshire Water 238WH survey that leakage is an issue held in high importance A range of options is available to Ofwat. The right by the public, not just in the right hon. Gentleman’s hon. Gentleman said that it was powerless—I will come constituency but across the country. on to talk about his specific case—but Ofwat can act The failure of some companies to meet annual leakage against a water company that is failing on leakages. For targets reflects badly on the generally good performance example, in 2006 Ofwat used its powers to secure an on leakage—that is why I would take slight issue with undertaking from Thames Water in response to a failure the right hon. Gentleman. He said that we are where we to meet leakage targets. Since then, Thames Water has were 20 years ago, but there has been considerable reduced leakage by more than 190 megalitres a day. It improvement. It is not my job to defend or to be the achieved that by spending approximately £150 million voice of any water companies. If anything, my job is to of shareholders’ money, not by putting the cost on its ensurethatafairdealisbeingachievedbytheconsumer. bills. That is one tool that can be used to bear down on However, we want to be accurate in dealing with leakage—it the problem. is not where we would like it to be, but we are moving in During last winter’s cold weather, Yorkshire Water the right direction, and a number of different factors experienced an increased number of burst mains, and are involved. I will talk about some of those factors in a the same happened across the country. This is the first moment. time the company has failed a leakage target since The latest figures show that leakage has reduced by targets became mandatory in 1998-99. Since 1995, when more than a third since its peak in 1994-95—a reduction the company received significant negative media coverage of 1,837 megalitres per day, equivalent to the daily after the drought of that year, it has renewed more than needs of more than 12 million domestic customers. 2,800 km of water mains. The right hon. Gentleman Between now and 2015, the target leakage in England made some grudging, but nevertheless generous comments and Wales is due to fall by a further 97 megalitres per about the company’s performance on some issues, grinding day. his teeth as he did about pay issues, and I completely understand. As I say, however, I am here not to be the At this stage, it is useful to remember that fixing leaks voice of the water companies or the regulator, but to can be costly—that is no excuse for it not happening, make sure that the consumer gets the best deal. but it can be costly. Customers have told Ofwat, the independent regulator, that they do not want to see On the circumstances of the case the right hon. large rises in bills to reduce leakage, and, clearly, the Gentleman described, I must be extremely careful, because serious disruption caused by digging up streets must be I understand—he may differ—that it is now the subject considered. of legal proceedings. I will therefore have to be extremely guarded in the words that I use, and he will be able to Companies are now reaching a level of leakage at correct me if the information I have is wrong. which the extra costs associated with repairing leaks—in terms of manpower, materials, fuel, carbon emissions As the right hon. Gentleman said, his constituent, and so on—are equal to the costs of producing the Mr Georgiou, has experienced long-term, chronic ingress water that is leaking. That is not to say that we should of water into his cellar—that is not disputed. He made a not redouble our efforts—of course we should—but we complaint to Yorkshire Water, which was not resolved should see them in the full balance of what we are to his satisfaction. The Consumer Council for Water seeking for a modernised water company through the became involved and supported Mr Georgiou in the current review process. processing of his complaint. The water companies report their leakage performance I will not reiterate the details of the case because the annually to Ofwat. When Ofwat assesses a company’s right hon. Gentleman has laid them before us, but I will performance against leakage targets, any decisive external answer some of his specific points. He said that the events are taken into account. The prolonged cold consumer council was unable to force Yorkshire Water winter we experienced last winter presented a challenge to act, and he is absolutely right that it does not have the to the water companies in managing an increase in burst power to force a water company to take action. Nor is it mains and in minimising interruptions to consumers. in a position to determine liability in such cases. However, The coldest winter for more than 30 years had different it does have powers to obtain any information required impacts on networks across England and Wales. All to ensure that customers’ complaints have been handled companies reported high numbers of burst pipes over appropriately. My understanding is that it supported that period because of ground movement caused by Mr Georgiou in getting the information that he required. freezes and thaws—I am not saying that that is in any A review of how the consumer council handled the case way related to the particular case referred to by the is being carried out by the regional chair, who will look right hon. Gentleman. In addition, snow cover for carefully at these issues. longer than normal made it more difficult for the companies The right hon. Gentleman has a further opportunity to find and repair their leaking pipes. to raise this matter through the parliamentary ombudsman Ofwat’s primary consideration when deciding what on behalf of his constituent. He says that Ofwat has no action to take against a company that fails its leakage specific powers to resolve this complaint, and he is right targets is whether the target failure affects customers’ that it does not have the power to resolve complaints security of supply. Does the increased leakage mean a about liability in such cases. It appears the case has higher risk of restrictions on customers’ use of water? A reached the point where it is the subject of legal proceedings. leakage target failure would be considered much more I would very much like to be able to say more, but I am serious were it to jeopardise water supplies to customers. informed that that could prejudice those proceedings. Ofwat’s policy for assessing leakage failures takes account of a company’s performance over a three-year period, Mr MacShane: The Minister is being extraordinarily and it does not automatically take regulatory action fair and decent about this case. Nothing would give after a single year’s failure. Mr Georgiou and me greater pleasure than not to have 239WH Yorkshire Water 16 NOVEMBER 2010 240WH

[Mr MacShane] Nuclear Power (Dungeness) to proceed to a county court case, but to settle this matter modestly, cleanly and quickly now. As a result of 12.57 pm this debate, I hope that Yorkshire Water might take that Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): I on board. want to pay tribute at the start of this debate to Councillor Willie Richardson, who represented Romney Marsh Richard Benyon: That is a very reasonable comment. and Dungeness at Kent county council and Shepway I started by saying that the House offers hon. Members district council. He was a great advocate of Dungeness the ability to stand up for people who feel, rightly or and a supporter of nuclear power there. Sadly, Willie wrongly—this may be their perception or the reality—that died last week, and his funeral will be held tomorrow in they have been done down by a large company, bureaucracy Lydd. He would have taken a great interest in today’s or organisation, and it is entirely right that hon. Members debate. have that ability. Dungeness nuclear power station has been an important On the exact rights and wrongs of this case, I have the part of the economy of my constituency for a number right hon. Gentleman’s word, which I entirely endorse of years. The A station was given the go-ahead by the as correct. However, when such matters are dealt with Minister for Power in 1959. In the deliberations before in legal proceedings, other factors are sometimes brought that decision, careful consideration was given to not in, and it would be entirely wrong for me to pass only the need for new sources of energy to supply the comment at this stage. None the less, the right hon. national grid, but the unique environment of Dungeness. Gentleman’s comments are on the record. His persistence Dungeness is a peninsula made largely of flint shingle on behalf of his constituent is not only on the record of that has built up over the centuries. It is one of the the House, but visible to those of us in the Chamber in largest peninsulas of its kind in the world and the the form of the file sitting on the desk in front of him. I largest in Europe. It is right that it receives protection assure him that if I can assist further without prejudicing and special designation, as it has for many years, but it legal proceedings in any way, I will, of course, be happy is also a working community, and people rely on the to talk to him. jobs that come from that community and, increasingly, from the nuclear power station. 12.54 pm The story of the success of Dungeness as a community Sitting suspended. involves the management and effective support of a brittle habitat and environment, with nature and man working successfully in partnership. Many would say that the arrival of nuclear power at Dungeness in the 1960s and 1970s has done a lot to underpin the important environmental work that has been done there. Indeed, some of the habitats, plants and wildlife that now exist at Dungeness would probably not be there were it not for the human intervention required to support and sustain the nuclear industry at Dungeness. During the Government’s consultation on new nuclear sites, as part of the national policy statement on energy, there were considerable representations from my constituents, Shepway council and Kent county council about the economic importance of nuclear power at Dungeness. Approximately one in 10 jobs in Romney Marsh is linked, directly or indirectly, to the power station. It is estimated that Dungeness B station, the one that is currently in operation producing energy, puts about £20 million a year into the local economy. Without that continued investment and the continued presence of nuclear power it is hard to see how we could make up the shortfall. It is primarily for that reason that there has continued to be considerable support from the community for nuclear power at Dungeness, and for a C station—a new generation of nuclear power to replace Dungeness B when it stops production in the late 20-teens or in the 2020s. It is an important part of the local economy and we do not think we could live without it. I believe that Dungeness could also play an important part in meeting the country’s energy needs. The Minister and his colleagues have spoken before about the need to keep the lights on and said that to do that we need new sources of energy production. The national policy statement on energy and the search for new nuclear sites is at the heart of that decision-making process. If we are not to be reliant on imported energy, whether gas from Russia 241WH Nuclear Power (Dungeness)16 NOVEMBER 2010 Nuclear Power (Dungeness) 242WH or—particularly pertinent in my constituency—nuclear approval? If the Government were prepared to make power from just across the sea in France, we need new that concession, an energy company might consider the sources of energy production. We believe that Dungeness site seriously and think about how a proposal could be is potentially an important new site for nuclear power taken forward, and the objections overcome. and new energy. Many people in my constituency would like Natural These opening remarks set the context of the issue England’s objections to be examined more thoroughly. and its importance for my constituency. The matter has They relate primarily to designations protecting the rare so far been considered by the Government through vegetation on the shingle at Dungeness. It is a particularly their consultations on the national policy statement. I important site and areas of the land would be lost. do not want to go over old ground, but shall focus However, a new nuclear power station would directly instead on some of the results in the recent report and affect only about 1% of the land of the entire special update on the consultation, which the Government protection area and special area of conservation at published last month. I was very disappointed, as were Dungeness, so some of us would question whether it is my constituents, that Dungeness was not included in true that a new power station would damage the integrity the list of preferred sites in the national policy statement. of the whole site. In relation to the European regulation, It was on the previous Government’s original longlist of that is what should be considered—not necessarily the 11 sites, but last year that was reduced to 10, with direct loss of one piece of land, but whether the integrity Dungeness being removed. The list has now been reduced of the whole site there would be compromised. to eight approved sites, with three sites not approved within the national policy statement for the building of Anyone who visits Dungeness A and B stations and new nuclear sites to be completed by 2025. looks carefully at the site can see the area of land that was laid out and prepared in advance, in the belief that I acknowledge that the Government’s report says a C station would come at some future point. It is very many positive things about Dungeness. In particular it clear where the station would go. That land was, largely, highlights the fact that Dungeness remains in many disturbed when Dungeness B station was built. It has ways a credible site for deployment by 2025, and my been protected and fenced in for 30 years or so since constituents take considerable heart from that. However, that time, and in that time the shingle has reverted to the issue with the power station has been the objections, the appearance and the kind of habitat that was there primarily from Natural England, that allowing a new before the station was built. It is believed that some of power station to be built at Dungeness would be in the plant life and vegetation has returned to the shingle, contravention of the designations of the site, particularly and that some of the insect life that existed at Dungeness those that were brought in through the EU habitats before the B station was built has also returned. directive. There is legal protection for the site. I want to examine some of the issues relating to that protection, I think that some the return of the habitat should be in response to the Government’s consultation. carefully studied, to see whether the vegetated shingle at First, the Government said in their consultation—I Dungeness is somewhat more robust than has been am quoting the site report for Dungeness: believed. Residents of Dungeness and Willie Richardson, when I saw him two weeks ago, have made the point “Given the nature of the issues at Dungeness. it may be easier that those who have lived in the community all their to ascertain that there will not be adverse effects on the integrity lives know that new vegetation springs up. Perhaps it is of the SAC at the detailed project level of an application for development consent.” not such a delicate flower, but a slightly more robust species, albeit that the environment is one where many The Government talk at some length in the site report would find it hard to imagine plant life could grow. It for Dungeness about the fact that, even if the site is not grows and it returns, and that should be considered. included in the national policy statement, a developer The vegetated shingle at Dungeness may seem like a and energy company could come forward with proposals small point, but the jobs of thousands of people in my that could go to the planning commission and ultimately constituency and in East Sussex hang in the balance to the Secretary of State for approval. Unfortunately because of the interpretation of the regulations affecting there is a barrier to that process even being started, or the site. That creates a restriction on our ability to build to reaching the Government’s recommendation that a new station there. perhaps, at that more detailed planning stage, it is possible to ascertain whether there can be mitigation of The Government can also set aside consideration of the loss of habitats and sites at Dungeness that will the European regulations on habitats if they believe come from building a new power station. However, that there is an overriding national interest that allows unless the site is included in the national policy statement, them to do so. Indeed, for a number of the eight sites no energy company will be prepared to take such a risk, with which the Government are proceeding, they have given the uncertainty about the detailed cost and the made exactly that case and said that the national interest great expense involved in taking a nuclear power station is such that development should be allowed. We would proposal into the planning system, if it is not even clear like that to happen at Dungeness as well. in the Government’s national policy statement that they The argument has been made that eight other sites consider it to be a site that could be delivered. can be developed first and that therefore Dungeness Following the Government’s guidance in their own should wait. That seems incredible to us. If there is a site report for Dungeness, could some consideration be good case for building the station, why should we wait given to including Dungeness in the national policy for other sites to be built before we carry on and build statement, while continuing to cite the Government’s it? Why not say that to proceed with nine sites would be reservations about loss of habitats, and stating that entirely consistent our view of our energy need? The those would need to be considered and resolved at the Dungeness site could be developed before some of the planning stage, before the Secretary of State could give other eight that the Government are considering. If 243WH Nuclear Power (Dungeness)16 NOVEMBER 2010 Nuclear Power (Dungeness) 244WH

[Damian Collins] those laws control how we are governed. The regulations were brought into British law as an EU directive. When they are prepared to say that there are national interest they were introduced, there was no debate and no local grounds for allowing the other sites to be developed, consultation on what they might mean. No one realised why not do the same with Dungeness? that it would effectively result in a block veto on a new Other countries have been in the same position and power station at Dungeness. It is now years since we allowed national interest to take precedence over the went through the process, however, and that is where environmental provisions, because they have thought it we are. was the right thing for them. One example in a report I cannot believe that the Government truly knew of submitted to the Government was Baden-Baden airport, the extent of the regulations. Why would Dungeness where the German Government said that the site needed have been included in the consultation longlist of the to be developed. The Government, in considering that, original 11 sites if the Government believed that it have said that there were not necessarily alternative could never be deployed? That poses considerable questions sites, and that was only one airport site in one location; about the way in which we are governed. The regulations, but no one would pretend that Baden-Baden airport is interpreted by the Government’s advisers, can ignore the lynchpin of the German aviation system or its the views of local people, local councils, Members of primary hub airport. The German Government made a Parliament, and perhaps even the private views of Ministers discretionary decision to allow that airport to go ahead, and others in the House. Instead, the regulations take and we are asking the British Government to consider a precedence even when no one wants them. similar case for Dungeness power station. We are left having to fight for something that I believe I have also investigated whether there is a good case should be relatively straightforward. However, it is a for the national grid to have a feed-in point from a new fight that I am determined to pursue on behalf of my nuclear power station at Dungeness. It is unique among constituents, as many of their livelihoods depend on a all the nuclear sites that the Government have been new nuclear power station at Dungeness. considering in being south-east of London and in an area of high energy demand. The new power station 1.12 pm would easily supply enough electricity to power the The Minister of State, Department of Energy and entirety of Kent, and more. There is an imbalance in the Climate Change (Gregory Barker): I congratulate my energy system. We need more energy coming in from hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe the south. I contacted National Grid to ask its opinion (Damian Collins) on securing this debate. He is a great and was told that the charges for connections to the grid champion of Dungeness and, indeed, of the whole are substantially lower in the south-east and on the Romney Marsh area, which is in his constituency. I south coast than in other energy-generating areas such know that this debate is only the latest of his efforts to as Scotland—particularly the north of Scotland. In a fight for his constituents, and I have no doubt that he letter to me, the company said: will continue. My constituency of Bexhill and Battle is “It is more favourable for prospective new generation connecting adjacent to Romney Marsh, so I know a little of the to our network to locate in the lower cost charging zones, including area. Indeed, I have ridden over it a number of times. It the South and South East, thereby minimising transmission investment is a spectacular and wonderful part of the country. It is requirements.” very special. Do the Government not consider it part of the national The debate is important, and my hon. Friend has interest that, in these difficult times, a good economic raised some serious questions. I shall endeavour to case can be made for locating a new power station respond to them. The Minister of State, Department of closer to the area of greatest energy demand, particularly Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the Member one that can be delivered relatively quickly? for Wealden (Charles Hendry), who usually deals with The debate on whether Dungeness power station nuclear energy matters, is unable to be here, so I speak goes forward is based not on whether the local people for him today. are for it or against it. They are overwhelmingly in Damian Collins: Speaking of our hon. Friend, I should favour. Indeed, in general remarks made earlier in the make it clear that he has offered to meet me separately. I year about where new stations should go, the Secretary shall be happy to take him up on that offer. of State said that consideration should be given to whether they can be built alongside existing nuclear Gregory Barker: There are a number of points of sites and whether there is strong local support. Dungeness detail that could probably be best advanced in a meeting meets both criteria. It is not that Dungeness should not rather than in debate, and I know that my colleague will go forward simply because the Government believe that be keen to pursue them. it is not a credible site or that it could not be delivered I start by setting out the context for the coalition’s before 2025. It is and could be, and that was clearly energy policy. The United Kingdom needs a robust mix stated in the Government’s site report. It is not that of all types of clean energy assets—including, as my Dungeness should not go forward because the country hon. Friend made clear, new nuclear power stations. We does not need new energy capacity. We do, and the need such a policy in order to achieve the twin goals of Government noted in the site report that the question is energy security and dramatically reduced greenhouse whether environmental decisions mean that Dungeness gas emissions. Indeed, we wish to decarbonise the whole could not be delivered now, not that it could never be energy sector by the mid-2030s. As a result, we will need delivered. nuclear power. We return to the environmental and habitat regulations. Nuclear power is a proven low-carbon technology, For many of my constituents, that brings up important and it is anticipated that it will play an increasingly questions of how our laws work and the way in which important role as we diversify and decarbonise our 245WH Nuclear Power (Dungeness)16 NOVEMBER 2010 Nuclear Power (Dungeness) 246WH sources of electricity. Failure to decarbonise and diversify appraisal of sustainability and a habitats regulations could result in the UK becoming locked into a system assessment. It was also informed through the input of high-carbon generation, which would make it difficult of specialists, such as the regulators and the public and expensive to meet our 2050 emissions targets. and energy companies. After careful consideration, the The nuclear power station at Dungeness has been nominated site at Dungeness, along with sites at Braystones generating low-carbon electricity for decades, for which and Kirksanton in Cumbria, were found not to be we are extremely grateful. We have seen decades of suitable. service from the communities at Dungeness, Romney I really do understand the concerns that have been Marsh and the wider area, sometimes from the same raised by my hon. Friend about our not listing Dungeness. families. I understand their concern about the loss of Responses to the consultation on the draft nuclear NPS active generating capacity there and their strong interest illustrated the strength of feeling about the importance in seeing a new build. That is perfectly understandable. of Dungeness to local people and, in particular, to the My hon. Friend suggests that we should think of the local economy. However, after careful consideration of impact on the local economy. As he knows, we assessed all the responses, including those from the local authority sites against criteria that were consulted upon publicly. and EDF Energy, the conclusion has not changed. However, the criteria themselves do not directly cover None the less, I will preface my explanation with a the economic impact. That does not mean that economic reminder that we are currently consulting on a revised factors are not important, and the accompanying appraisal draft of the nuclear NPS and we will, of course, consider of sustainability considered the impact of new nuclear any new evidence that we receive. If my hon. Friend is power stations on surrounding areas. It noted that able to bring forward new compelling evidence and can employment in the Shepway district council area is marshal that evidence, we would be receptive to it and lower than the national average, and that a new nuclear he should certainly discuss that point when he meets my power station at Dungeness would bring economic benefits ministerial colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for to the area. Unfortunately, Dungeness failed one of the Wealden. However, the bottom line is that, to date, we discretionary criteria, and we believe that there are have not seen any evidence that is sufficient to take us in better alternative sites. a different direction. The key is obviously planning. In the coming decades, Let me say why we have decided, on balance, that we will need a substantial amount of new, local carbon- Dungeness should be excluded. Dungeness actually passed energy infrastructure, but it must be built in the right all but one of the assessment criteria, so I understand places. To help in this, the Government want a planning that the local community will have a heightened sense system for major infrastructure that is rapid and predictable, of disappointment, given that Dungeness came quite but still accountable. We announced our intention to close to being listed. However, Dungeness did not pass abolish the Infrastructure Planning Commission and to the criterion on internationally designated sites of ecological move its expertise into a new major infrastructure planning importance. I also have to say that we have concerns unit, which will be part of the Planning Inspectorate. about whether the site could be protected from flooding Consents for major infrastructure projects will be decided and coastal erosion. by Ministers, who are accountable to Parliament, and based on recommendations from MIPU. That will ensure that decisions are made by those who are democratically Damian Collins: The Minister makes an important elected. point about flood risk. However, it is true to say that the nuclear site at Dungeness will have to be protected to Planning decisions should be taken within a clear support the decommissioning of the A and B stations, policy framework to make them as transparent as possible. and the life and decommissioning of the C station will The energy national policy statements, ratified by probably take place within that period of time. Parliament, will be a blueprint for decision making on applications for development consent for the relevant types of infrastructure. National policy statements will Gregory Barker: That is a perfectly valid point. set out Government policy, so that the matter does not Nevertheless, there are concerns about the potential need to be reopened for each application, which is what defence of the site, particularly given the advent of led to delays in the past. National policy statements climate change and the sea-level rises that are due along should also help applicants by giving greater clarity that whole stretch of coastline. about matters that will be taken into account in making However, the criterion on which the site failed really a decision. Our energy national policy statements are centred on the effects on ecological sites that are designated currently being consulted on, with the consultation at the highest European level for their ecological importance. ending on 24 January 2011. The national policy statements As my hon. Friend said, the assessment was carried out will also be scrutinised by Parliament: as set out in the in line with the requirements of the habitats directive, coalition agreement, they will be put before Parliament which protects such sites. for ratification. Dungeness failed because we do not believe that a The nuclear national policy statement identifies sites new nuclear power station could be built there without that the Government consider potentially suitable for causing adverse impacts on the integrity of the Dungeness the deployment of a new nuclear power station by the special area of conservation or that adverse impacts end of 2025. That will reduce speculation about where could be avoided or even substantially mitigated. Dungeness new nuclear power stations may go, and it will allow is the only nominated site that overlaps with a European public engagement and national debate at an early stage designated site to such an extent that the avoidance of in the process. Eight sites are listed. They have been adverse effects is not possible. Furthermore, it is not assessed using a process and criteria that were consulted considered that mitigation of the effects of direct land upon in 2008. The assessment was informed through an take is possible. 247WH Nuclear Power (Dungeness)16 NOVEMBER 2010 Nuclear Power (Dungeness) 248WH

[Gregory Barker] The buried and exposed shingle ridges at Dungeness are exceptional for the succession of unique shingle My hon. Friend raised the entirely legitimate point habitats that they support, as they demonstrate the that there would actually be a very small amount of evolution of such habitats. There are small depression encroachment by any new site at Dungeness, and he features in the shingle structure at Dungeness, known as asked if a smaller site would be acceptable. However, open pits, which are thought to be unique in the UK. the fact of the matter is that changes on a small amount The shingle also supports fen and open water communities of land take do not necessarily have an equally small and a large and viable population of great crested environmental impact. There are other important factors newts, which form part of the SAC designation. The to consider, such as the sensitivity of the receiving site is considered to be one of the best areas in the UK environment. The assessment of Dungeness identifies and one of the most diverse and extensive examples of the SAC as a most sensitive area. Natural England’s stable vegetated shingle in Europe. advice is that even a small area of land take may be Under the regulations that protect such sites, plans deemed to have an adverse effect and that there are no for development that are likely to have significant effects, minimum extents defined for whether an adverse effect such as the nuclear NPS, can be adopted only where the would occur. relevant authority, which in this case is the Secretary of Our conclusion is that, even if a small “footprint” State, is satisfied that there will be no adverse effects on were taken, an adverse effect could not be ruled out, the integrity of the protected site. As I have said, mitigation of any such effect would not be possible, and following consideration of responses received during it would be very difficult to compensate for any such the consultation, to date we remain of the view that a effect, due to the lack of a proven or accepted methodology new nuclear power station cannot be built at Dungeness for providing compensation, a lack of areas that are without having an adverse effect on the integrity of the suitable or sufficient in size for habitat creation, the Dungeness SAC. active role that coastal processes play in maintaining the shingle habitats and the time that it takes shingle Where such adverse effects cannot be ruled out, a site vegetation communities to establish themselves successfully. can be included in the NPS only if there are no alternative solutions; if there are imperative reasons of overriding Damian Collins: In the site report that the Government public interest, which is a test that must be made under produced for Dungeness, there is a helpful page of the habitats directive, and if effective compensation can summary of the concerns regarding the D6 criteria. The be made. Our assessment has found that at the eight report notes that some concerns exist: sites on the revised draft nuclear NPS there is potential “due to lack of alternative shingle habitat in the area”. for adverse effects on the integrity of Natura 2000 sites As my hon. Friend the Minister will probably know, to be avoided or mitigated. Therefore, those eight sites because he knows this particular part of the country, are alternatives to Dungeness that meet the requirements there is an awful lot of shingle there and I think that of the habitats directive, as they better respect the that is an argument that people have difficulty with. integrity of Natura 2000 sites. I therefore have to say that, given the particular adverse effects in relation to Gregory Barker: My hon. Friend makes his point Dungeness and the availability of the other eight sites very clearly. to contribute towards meeting the need for nuclear- generating stations, the Government do not consider The Dungeness SAC is considered to be the most that listing Dungeness is justified. The assessment has important shingle site in Europe and in fact it is one of also found that it would be difficult to compensate for the largest shingle expanses in the world. England has a adverse effects, such as direct habitat loss. significant proportion of the European total of vegetated shingle and the largest example of a shingle beach in I know that that will come as a disappointment to my England is at Dungeness, which is approximately hon. Friend, but I also know that he will continue with 1,600 hectares in size and made up of ice age flint his campaign. I assure him that, although I have given deposits. The pattern of shingle ridges at this site has him our clear and stated view today, we remain open to built up over 5,000 years. new evidence. 249WH 16 NOVEMBER 2010 Sustainable Communities Act 2007 250WH

Sustainable Communities Act 2007 the Second Reading debate in 2007 demonstrated the strength and depth of that support in all parties. One thing that united MPs with the organisations 1.28 pm and communities so actively campaigning on the issue was the determination that the Act should not be just Martin Caton (Gower) (Lab): It is a great pleasure to another consultation exercise. Of course consultation serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Turner. has a valuable place in our political development, but to Back in 2007, I was one of the sponsors of the reverse community decline, we needed something that Sustainable Communities Bill, which was so ably steered delivered rather more. The Act sets in law for the first through its various stages by the hon. Member for time a bottom-up process in which central Government Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd), who is now have a duty to co-operate and reach agreement with the a Parliamentary Secretary in the Cabinet Office. I know designated selector, the Local Government Association, that he would agree that the Sustainable Communities on which proposals for Government action made by Act 2007 is rightfully the legitimate offspring of more communities and councils will be implemented. than 120 national organisations, which came together under the umbrella of Local Works. What has happened since the passing of the Act? In October 2008, the previous Government launched the Pressure for the Act came out of the experience of first invitation of proposals. Local Works responded by people up and down this country who had watched holding more public meetings across the country, and their communities decline over the years and who recognised organisations, communities and individuals lobbied their what that meant for their quality of life. At the heart of councils to resolve to use the Act. Some 100 local the problem was the loss of key local services. There authorities responded, and in partnership with their was the closure of a fifth of the post office network in communities they drew up 300 proposals for Government just a decade, and the loss of a quarter of our local action and submitted them to the Local Government grocery stores; also, a fifth of local bank branches went Association by the end of July 2009. over that same time frame. More than 30,000 community retailers were painted out of the picture. The scope and breadth of the proposals is eye-opening. They included measures to protect local post offices, However, that process was not just about the high shops, pubs and other suppliers; to increase the sale and street or the village store, but about the quality of our production of local food; to protect local public services; public spaces and the run-down of community halls, to promote local renewable energy, microgeneration, community centres and children’s playgrounds. In addition, energy efficiency and recycling; and to increase democratic it was about recognising that losing community resources participation. The wide-ranging nature of the proposals is not only bad for the local environment but impacts on showed how enthusiastic communities had become about the bigger picture, as it forces people to travel further various aspects of the sustainability agenda. and further from home to gain access to what used to be on their doorsteps. At the same time, Local Works and The Local Government Association shortlisted 199 its contingent parts observed our country’s increasing of the proposals and submitted them to the Government disengagement with politics, while also picking up the in January this year. Of those 199, Local Works identified message that people are prepared to re-engage and get 30 that it described as a vision for local sustainability, involved if they believe they can make a difference by arguing that it is vital that the Government agree those doing so. proposals to protect and create truly sustainable communities. Many of the proposals involve no extra The philosophy behind the drive for what became the financial burden to the Treasury, as they simply devolve Sustainable Communities Act 2007 is simple. First, power, give councils new powers or change existing community decline is a national and ongoing problem, rules. So far, so good. and it will clearly worsen if nothing is done. Secondly, in most instances, the best efforts of local citizens and In preparing for this debate, I read the Hansard communities will not be enough to reverse the trend, so report of the Third Reading debate on the Sustainable Government must help. However, communities are the Communities Bill. It is noteworthy that Members from experts on local problems and the solutions to them, so all parties regarded the Bill as important legislation, Government actions must be directed by communities especially for a private Member’s Bill. It is also noteworthy and not central diktat. What was needed was a mechanism how many of them—including Ministers in the current by which local people could drive Government action coalition Government—looked forward to seeing the to reverse community decline and promote local Act’s impact. There was a sense of urgency in the sustainability. The Act was and is the vehicle for doing Chamber on that day. so. The situation in which we find ourselves is therefore I have said that the Act is the baby of the Local astonishing and extremely disappointing. To date, no Works coalition. So it is, and I congratulate the coalition, negotiations have been reported between Government but we should remember that the gestation period was and the Local Government Association, as required by very long and that a succession of hon. Members the Act, to reach agreement on the shortlisted proposals. volunteered to act as midwife along the way. Essentially Delaying doing good is always a cause for concern, but the same legislation was promoted by Julia Goldsworthy, I believe that in this case there is an additional danger. by the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Many people have spent time and energy getting involved Barker), now Minister of State at the Department of in identifying how the Act can deliver for communities Energy and Climate Change, and by the much-missed throughout the country. The feedback I have seen shows David Drew, then MP for Stroud. That demonstrates that some of those people are becoming extremely the cross-party nature of support for the legislation, disillusioned, and disillusionment is often followed by just as early-day motion signatures and attendance at disengagement. 251WH Sustainable Communities Act 200716 NOVEMBER 2010 Sustainable Communities Act 2007 252WH

[Martin Caton] number of signatures for any early-day motion this Session. I understand that the Government have said To demonstrate that point, I shall quote from a few that it might be next year before all the proposals are councillors and organisations worried by what they see dealt with. If so, the disillusionment I have demonstrated as unnecessary delay. Councillor Anne Ward of South will deepen. Hams district council said: It also raises another question about process. Before “It’s a disgrace that there’s been no movement on this for over the end of this year, the Government must announce a year—makes you wonder why we all bothered!” the timetable for the second invitation of proposals Councillor Richard Robinson of Broxtowe borough required by the Sustainable Communities Act 2007 council said: (Amendment) Act 2010. “It has now been over a year and three months since proposals were submitted and yet they have still not been dealt with by the Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I Government. There is now widespread grave concern that the huge numbers of people who put their time and energy into congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate getting involved in the Act are becoming disillusioned and disengaged.” on such an important issue. On process, does he agree that local authorities should have the option to submit Councillor Clare Hopkinson of Warwickshire county proposals when they want, so that the 2007 Act creates council said: a continuous, streamlined process? “It is unacceptable that government moves so slowly.” Councillor Elaine Hall of Moor Monkton parish council Martin Caton: It will be a continuous process, but I said: support the timetabling in the original Act, because it “It has now been a year and three months since these proposals ensures that projects are considered and should have were put before government and we need to see some action.” ensured that the Government were engaged by now Councillor Robert Dyson of Shadwell parish council with the Local Government Association. wrote to the Minister, saying: I mentioned the consequences of the 2010 Act. That “I gather that 300 ideas were finally put forward to the last Act will mean that a new tranche of proposals will be government some 15 months ago, since which time there has been neither feedback nor action.” invited very soon. As I say, if the Government do not pull their finger out, they will have to announce the Tellingly, he went on: second invitation before having dealt with the proposals “You are now part of a new Government, which is promoting from the first. That will send out all the wrong signals the idea of the ‘Big Society’. If the idea is to be something more about the Government’s commitment to sustainable than a mere slogan, can you please give me some assurance that communities. Let us get things moving right now. some active consideration will be given to the ideas put forward to promote local sustainability?” I recall that the Minister was at the Bill’s Second Ruth Bond, chair of the National Federation of Women’s Reading debate. He intervened on the hon. Member for Institutes, said: Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner on the issue of garden grabbing—a subject I know is close to his heart. In “We now are encouraging the government to ensure the Act is properly implemented by dealing with the proposals. It is important responding, the Bill’s promoter described the Minister that this is done soon as it is over a year since the proposals were as submitted…When our members and others start to see results at “a well-known champion of localism”—[Official Report, 19 January a local level their involvement will have meant something and 2010; Vol. 455, c. 1041.] more people will be inspired to engage in this new democratic process. However if things drag on there is a serious risk that Today, I am asking him to prove that that description is disillusion will creep in and further damage public involvement in accurate. democracy.” Mike Benner, chief executive of the Campaign for Real Ale, said: 1.40 pm “Since early last year, many communities and councils, as well The Minister of State, Department for Communities as our members and branches, have been involved in the Act. and Local Government (Greg Clark): It is an honour to Hundreds of exciting ideas for government action to promote serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Mr Turner, thriving communities, many of those relating to protecting and enhancing local pubs and local beer, were submitted as proposals. and it is a privilege to respond to the debate, which has However, we are concerned that the process is dragging. It is over been initiated by the hon. Member for Gower (Martin a year since the first set of proposals was submitted. Our members Caton). Throughout my time as an MP, and before and others who got involved are starting to ask what is going on. then, he has been a passionate advocate for all things Because of this we believe it is vital that the government deals local and sustainable. Indeed, he was described to me with the proposals made under the Act urgently.” just this morning—I know he will take this as the I have similar comments from the chief executive of the compliment that it was intended to be—as being Rural Shops Alliance, the director of Unlock Democracy, the new David Drew, to whom he referred earlier. the chief executive of the Association of Convenience The hon. Gentleman has the admiration of the House Stores, the chief executive of the National Council for not only for helping to secure the passage of the Sustainable Voluntary Organisations and the executive director of Communities Bill, which he did with the now Parliamentary Friends of the Earth. Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member A while ago, to try to stimulate action, I tabled for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd), but for early-day motion 178, which calls on the Government rightly keeping up the pressure on the Government to to deal expeditiously with the proposals under the Act. take the required action. I join him in paying tribute to That motion is now supported by 236 Members from the Local Works coalition, which has been absolutely across the parties in the House—by far the highest indefatigable from beginning to end. It was a tortuous 253WH Sustainable Communities Act 200716 NOVEMBER 2010 Sustainable Communities Act 2007 254WH process to get the Bill passed, and it is quite right that he Martin Caton: I have no doubt about the Minister’s is taking a continuing interest in ensuring that the commitment to localism, but I am a little worried that provisions are enacted. he says that there have been negotiations with the LGA. Openness and transparency are at the heart of the Bill, In responding to the hon. Gentleman’s passionate and the process by which the selector—the LGA—chose speech, I would like to do three things. First, I reiterate which measures it wanted to send on to the Minister my personal view of the importance of the Sustainable was done openly in open meetings. He now informs me Communities Act 2007—indeed, the Government share that there have been negotiations, but they have not that view. Secondly, I am pleased to say that I can give been reported to anybody. They have certainly not been him substantial reassurances on the points he raised. I reported to those bodies and organisations that are the hope that that will also reassure people listening to the driving force behind making the Act work. debate. Thirdly, I shall discuss how, in the next round, we can respond to some of the bureaucratic problems that have beset the process to ensure that we can address Greg Clark: In fact, the term “negotiations” is a the issues more speedily in future. misnomer because we found it easy to agree. There is positive volition on the part of the Government to say I supported the Bill during its passage through yes to as many of these proposals as we can. Within the Parliament. I regard the Sustainable Communities Act 2007 next few weeks, I hope to be able to agree—I am as one of the most important pieces of legislation to be meeting the chairman of the selector again next week—with enacted in the past decade. The principles established the selector on all the proposals made under the Act. by the Act mean that local people have the right to What the hon. Gentleman says is absolutely correct: if know what is being spent and done on their behalf in we are to move on to the next round—as, indeed, we their communities. Armed with that information, local will be doing—we ought to have dealt with the current people should have the right to suggest alternative ways proposals. I have been very careful and have personally of proceeding. Local people’s right to have their suggestions gone through every proposal made—there are a lot of seriously considered, rather than rebuffed, is the essence them and they consume much paper—and I hope to be of a new approach to government that is fundamental able to give a positive response to about two thirds of and will change how government is done. I am determined the proposals selected by the selector. That relates to to ensure not only that we follow those principles in the two thirds of all short-listed proposals. I hope that our decisions we make about the Act, but that such principles response, which again I hope will be made soon, will be underpin the localism Bill that will shortly be introduced very positive. to the House. It should no longer be possible for people in authority to say to community groups and local My Department’s business plan commits us to making community institutions, “You can’t do what you want these decisions by the end of January 2011. That is our to do just because we say so.” Such an approach is not published commitment. As I say, it is a source of terribly good parenting and it is certainly not good frustration that more preparatory work was not done government. We need to move away from it once and by the previous Government. I do not want to make a for all. party political point; it is more of an administrative point. It would have been nice not to have had to start On the hon. Gentleman’s particular concerns about from scratch on the matter but, in the time we have had, the timetable, he is right that the first invitation was we have made pretty good progress. I would like to be in issued in October 2008. Some 301 submissions were a position to make that announcement well before the received by the LGA in July 2009 and a short list of 199 published requirement of the end of January 2011. I was supplied just before Christmas, on 23 December would much prefer to be able to do it before the end of 2009. I share his frustration. When we came into the year—before Christmas—and I will be pushing for government, I was pleased to be appointed to the portfolio that. with responsibility for the Act. Frankly, I hoped to be able to pick up a substantial body of work that had Martin Caton: What the Minister is saying is very been done from December to May and to find that welcome indeed. I would just like to challenge him on things had been properly scrutinised and were ready to two things. He is being a little unfair on Ministers in the be enacted. My inheritance was that no decisions had previous Government. Obviously he has not seen the been taken and no decisions were ready to take. papers, but I think considerable progress was made— Although incoming Ministers do not have access to although admittedly that was initially on, as he says, previous Ministers’ papers— and rightly so—my about a dozen projects. More importantly, is he saying understanding was that only about a dozen of the that we will have the announcement on the projects proposals were minded to be introduced with any particular before the end of this year? speed. I will be candid with hon. Members: that was a disappointment to me when I came into office. However, Greg Clark: That is my intention. I should reiterate I was determined that we should not simply progress a that our public commitment is to making the decisions select, hand-picked few proposals that might catch the by 31 January 2011, but I am doing everything I can to eye of Ministers, but that we should take a comprehensive bring that forward. If we can make the decision before approach and adopt the demeanour of wanting to say the end of the year—before Christmas even—that is yes, rather than trying to find reasons to say no. Far what I would like to do. I am personally working with from there having been no negotiations with the LGA my officials and with the LGA selector to try to do selector, I have, in fact, been through all the proposals that. In any event, the published self-imposed deadline with it. We have already agreed with the LGA selector of 31 January is a backstop, but I would like to use best on half the proposals. endeavours to bring that forward. 255WH Sustainable Communities Act 200716 NOVEMBER 2010 Sustainable Communities Act 2007 256WH

[Greg Clark] Whitehall if that is necessary. We will not always succeed, but we will certainly do the best we can to achieve that. In response to the question asked by my hon. Friend The opportunity in the next round is to make access the Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman to our “bureaucracy busters” more widely available Chishti) on the subsequent invitation for the next round, across the country and, as my hon. Friend the Member I would like to make a simultaneous announcement on for Gillingham and Rainham suggested, to see whether the arrangements for the next round of submissions we can ensure that we do not need to wait for a long from community groups across the country. It is not a time before acting on good requests. If something is a one-off exercise, but the beginning of a different way of good idea, we should get on with it. approaching government, and I am absolutely determined By coincidence, I happened to have a meeting with to build on it and go further. We want to do that as soon Local Works and my hon. Friend the Member for as possible, and certainly before we are obliged to do so. Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner this morning to discuss how we can really build on the ambitions and the early Rehman Chishti: What proposals are there to ensure success of the Act to go ever further and better in that more proposals come forward from community future. I hope that we can make some improvements to groups and citizens, rather than simply from councils? the system that will make the Act even more effective in the months ahead. Greg Clark: My hon. Friend touches on an important point. I pay tribute to the selector panel and, in particular, Martin Caton: I welcome the invitation to visit the to Councillor Keith Mitchell, who has put a great deal bureaucracy busters. On the theme of consulting Members of effort and personal commitment into scrutinising the of Parliament, if it proves that he cannot deliver the measures and putting them forward. Here we get on to accelerated timetable that he clearly hopes to deliver, the wider agenda, because the principle embodied in the would he be prepared to meet a cross-party delegation 2007 Act is that communities of all descriptions, including, of Members to discuss how we move forward? but not exclusively, local government, should have access to the machinery of government so that they can unblock Greg Clark: I do not need to make it contingent on the barriers that prevent them doing what they could that eventuality: I am happy to meet the hon. Gentleman do. I want to look at how we can extend that. at any time and with any colleagues who have a contribution One of my earliest impressions when I became a to make. MPs are leaders in their communities and have Minister was that I had access to a wide range of experience and knowledge, as he has in spades, about talented people in the Department who are there to help some of the obstacles we need to overcome, so I would turn ideas into reality and policy ideas into law. However, be happy to meet him and other colleagues in the weeks my view, which I suspect those hon. Members present ahead. Our formal commitment, which I ought to respect, share, is that the best ideas are not the exclusive preserve is to make a decision by the end of January, but I will do of Ministers, or even of senior officials, in Whitehall, everything in my power to make that earlier. but actually come from people in communities. It seems The approach embodied in the 2007 Act that local to me, therefore, that the support and advice that Ministers and specific approaches to problems can provide lessons have access to ought also to be available to people in on how things can be done better by other communities, communities. That is a commitment that I have made not only in that area, but across the country—possibly and am working on so that we can, almost literally, turn around the world—is a powerful way of thinking about government upside down in the Department, to make government. It is about helping with the specifics, learning help and support available to people in communities, the lessons and then taking practical action. I am rather than being exclusively for Ministers to help them determined that our response will respect the spirit of get things done. After all, if Ministers need help in the Act and indeed will imbue our whole approach to overcoming some of the barriers, goodness knows that government. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for people in communities will, too. giving us the opportunity to discuss the matter today I have established a team that we refer to as “barrier and hope that all Members, and everyone who has given busters”. During the last Communities and Local their time, effort and commitment to the process, will Government questions, I extended an invitation to Members shortly see that there is an even greater prospect of who have examples of burdens, rules, regulations and success in the future than we have heard today. barriers that are standing in the way of local action, and Question put and agreed to. which only central Government are able to remove, to contact the Department so that we can given them access to people who can help them to look at the 1.56 pm regulations and the law or to bang heads together in Sitting adjourned. 35WS Written Ministerial Statements16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 36WS

The strategy sets out a vision for a radical reform of Written Ministerial the skills system, transforming and simplifying the skills landscape, and introducing new freedoms and flexibilities Statements for providers. Above all we must abandon the culture of bureaucratic central planning and allow the energy, commitment and the resourcefulness of individuals and Tuesday 16 November 2010 employers full rein. Copies of “Skills for Sustainable Growth” will be deposited in the Libraries of both Houses. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS TREASURY “Skills for Sustainable Growth” ECOFIN (17 November 2010) The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning (Mr John Hayes): Today I am publishing The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): “Skills for Sustainable Growth”—the Government’s new The Economic and Financial Affairs Council will be strategy for skills. The strategy takes full account of held in Brussels on 17 November 2010. The following responses to the skills consultation which I announced items are on the agenda: on July 22. Directive and Regulation on VAT treatment of insurance Our ambition is to transform the nation’s performance and financial services so that we have a world-class skills base that provides a consistent source of competitive advantage. As skills ECOFIN will hold an initial discussion on proposals can also transform life chances, we must make sure that to modernise the VAT exemption for financial services, everyone can access skills opportunities to extend their reflecting market developments over the last 30 years. wider benefits throughout society.Drawing on the responses In addition to a proposal to amend the VAT directive, to our consultation exercise, our goal is to build a skills the European Commission has proposed a detailed system where learners are in the driving seat. We understand regulation that would ensure the law is applied consistently that in a modern economy, businesses and individuals across the EU. are better than Government at deciding what skills they The Government are keen to promote economic growth need. and competitiveness through modernisation of the The strategy is based on the coalition principles of legislation, increasing certainty and reducing compliance fairness, shared responsibility and increasing freedom. costs for business, and ensuring fairness of treatment, Funding for skills will focus strongly on those with the while at the same time protecting UK revenues and greatest need. For others, there will be a shared responsibility limiting opportunities for avoidance. between employers, citizens and Government for ensuring The Government will continue to seek harmonised skill needs are met, and an expectation of co-funding VAT exemption for financial derivatives and for investment with contributions that reflect the benefit each receives. management aimed at retail investors, as well as equal To underpin the informed choices individuals and employers treatment for outsourcing across the whole sector. The invest in, we will improve access to information about Government will also reject any proposals to remove skills through a new all-age careers service. A reformed Government choice in respect of the option to tax. skills system, freed from unnecessary bureaucracy and Implementation of the 2009 budget regulation, will be better able to respond to their demands. The Court of Auditors will present its annual report. Apprenticeships will be at the heart of the system we The UK continues to press the case for value for money will build, supported by a system of valued qualifications. and greater accountability in the EU budget. There will be a new role for employers in shaping the Follow-up to October European Council skills system and particular support for small and medium- ECOFIN will take note of the deliberations of the sized enterprises. We need employers to get involved, to European Council, especially as regards the taskforce shape the system and utilise the skills of their work report on economic governance and levies and taxes on force, so that they get the most from their investment. financial institutions. We will support them in implementing proposals they make for raising their game on skills. The European Council endorsed the taskforce report As a principle of fairness, Government retain a which explicitly excludes the UK from any sanctions responsibility to ensure that everyone has the basic flowing from economic governance reforms. With regards skills they need to access employment and participate in to levies and taxes on financial institutions, the Government society. In supporting learners we will offer every adult strongly support national levies on banks and other tax a lifelong learning account which provides access to the measures where appropriate to complement wider reforms new FE student loans. To inform empowered learners aimed at reducing the probability and impact of banking by providing independent advice and guidance we will failures. create the all-age new careers service because we know Follow-up to the G20 Seoul Summit on 11-12 November that good careers guidance is the basis for increasing Ministers will hold an exchange of views on the main social mobility. We will also develop a new model for outcomes of the G20 summit, which is scheduled to adult and community learning—the budget for which discuss the following issues of interest to ECOFIN: the will be protected—that will support the development of global economy and imbalances, the framework for the big society and create progression routes to formal growth, reform of the International Monetary Fund, learning. financial regulation, and trade. 37WS Written Ministerial Statements16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 38WS

Financing of measures against climate change I would like to clarify that Ofcom remains in schedule 7 of the Public Bodies Bill and there are no plans to remove it. There are ECOFIN will adopt conclusions on financing of certain functions that the Government intend should remain measures against climate change. The Government support outside the scope of future reviews and the powers in the Bill. the conclusions, which will build credible action on the These include the economic and network regulatory functions of ground and strengthen the EU position at the UNFCCC bodies such as Ofcom, where the Government wish to ensure that climate negotiations in Cancun in December. regulatory stability is maintained. Pensions The Government have identified several of Ofcom’s duties which should be amended or removed. The purpose of these The Council will adopt conclusions on a report on changes is to return the policy setting role to the Secretary of pensions. The Government welcome this report: it State, to reduce unnecessary expense and to avoid duplication. emphasises the importance of fiscal sustainability and These proposals do not include changes to Ofcom’s economic and extending working lives; and that the focus of EU network regulatory functions. To facilitate these proposals Ofcom activity in this area should be on exchanging country is named in schedules 4 and 5 of the Public Bodies Bill. experiences and collecting comparable data and information. EDUCATION EU statistics Children’s Workforce Development Council The Council will adopt conclusions on the annual report on EU statistics, which reviews the progress made on statistical governance. It welcomes the support The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education given by Eurostat to provide assistance to Greece in the (Tim Loughton): The Department for Education is to area of statistics; the efforts of the Greek authorities to cease funding work force development activity through correct deficiencies in this area; the recommendations the Children’s Workforce Development Council, and of the Van Rompuy taskforce to strengthen EU statistics; will bring CWDC’s ongoing core activities into the and progress made in the revision of the European Department. system of accounts. The Government are content with We have taken this decision as part of the arm’s the conclusions as drafted. length body review; it reflects our commitment to channel Baltic Sea area as much resource as possible directly to the front line, and to ensure that central Government Departments The European Investment Bank will give a presentation are directly accountable. The Secretary of State has on its contribution to the European strategy for the written to the chair to confirm this decision, to explain Baltic sea area, followed by an exchange of views by that the CWDC will cease to be a non-departmental Council. The Government welcome the work of the public body and to say that he has asked departmental EIB in the Baltic sea region, which aims to make the officials to work closely with CWDC on a transition region environmentally sustainable, prosperous, accessible, plan for the transfer of functions and responsibilities, in attractive, safe and secure. the expectation that all such transfers will be completed Representation of the Council at the G20 ministerial by 2012. It will be important during the transition meetings period to continue to engage employers in work force Ministers will discuss the presidency proposal that development. the EU should be represented by the Commission in the In the Secretary of State’s letter, he has taken the G20 finance ministerial meetings. The Government do opportunity to acknowledge the hard work and dedication not see a need to change the existing arrangements, of CWDC’s staff and the organisation’s significant whereby the EU presidency represents the EU and the contribution in leading work force reform and improving Commission is an observer. life chances for children and young people since it was Meeting of the EU and EFTA Ministers of Finance and established in 2005. Economy Ministers will meet their European free trade area ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS counterparts and discuss topical issues of mutual interest, including financial regulation and intelligent fiscal Waste Water National Policy Statement consolidation. The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): The Planning CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Act 2008 provides for national policy statements (NPSs) that set out Government policy for particular types of development. It requires the draft NPSs to be publicised, Parliamentary Oral Question (Correction) consulted on, and laid in Parliament with the intention of enabling public and parliamentary debate to take place. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): My Public consultation on the waste water NPS for England hon. Friend, the spokeswoman for the Department for started today, 16 November 2010, lasting for 14 weeks. Culture, Media and Sport in the House of Lords, At the same time I have laid it before Parliament for Baroness Rawlings, has made the following written a period of scrutiny (the “relevant period”) ending ministerial statement: 17 May 2011. The answers I provided to supplementary questions asked by The waste water NPS sets out our need for waste the noble Lord, Lord Borrie and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch water infrastructure to protect public health and ensure on Ofcom on 11 November 2010, Official Report, column 277 the health of our water environment with the consequent were incorrect. benefits for our water supply and biodiversity. Although 39WS Written Ministerial Statements16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 40WS we intend to slow the growth in demand for new waste The vision sets out a new direction for adult social water infrastructure in England, through the use of care, putting people, personalised services and outcomes sustainable drainage systems for example, we will need centre stage and returning social care to its foundations to continue investment in new waste water infrastructure. of reciprocity and constructive action by individuals on This will modernise outdated infrastructure, meet future behalf of the whole community. It sets a challenge for demands from a growing population and the effects of councils to provide a personal budget, preferably as a climate change, and fulfil our EU obligations. direct payment, for everyone who is eligible by April Two projects of potential national significance have 2013. As councils devolve commissioning responsibility been identified through this process: the new sewage to individuals via personal budgets, we expect them to treatment works at Deephams in north-east London work with providers to broaden the market of care and a sewerage collection and a transfer scheme along services, particularly small social enterprises, so that the Thames in London (the Thames tunnel). In line individuals can exercise real choice over care services. A with the Planning Act 2008, the waste water national consequence of personalisation is that people will policy statement has been drafted on the basis that once increasingly take their own decisions about how to the particular projects are designated, development consent balance their new freedoms with a sensible approach to will be determined by the Infrastructure Planning risk. The vision also calls for an increase in preventive Commission (IPC). The Government announced in activity in local communities, to keep people independent June 2010 their intention to amend the Planning Act for longer and contribute to building the big society. 2008 and abolish the IPC and replace it with a major The vision includes examples of how councils, working infrastructure planning unit (MIPU) within the Planning in partnership with local organisations and people, can Inspectorate. Until such time as the Planning Act 2008 develop innovative, efficient services. It encourages people is amended, the IPC will continue as set out in that Act to look to themselves and their communities, not just Publication of the draft waste water NPS follows my the state, for solutions and in doing so to grow the big statement of 7 September 2010 in which I indicated that society. It alerts councils to their new leadership role in development consent for the Thames tunnel should be health improvement and health and well-being boards dealt with under the regime for nationally significant and the opportunities this offers. infrastructure projects. I intend to bring the tunnel Councils should use the solid basis for social care within the direct scope of the Planning Act 2008 by funding delivered by the recent spending review as a amending the thresholds in section 14(3), Part 3 of the springboard to reform services. In recognition of the Act 2008. I plan to consult on the draft order in early pressures on the social care system in a challenging 2011. Thames Water also commenced in September a local government settlement, the coalition Government separate consultation on the site specific issues raised have allocated an additional £2 billion by 2014-15 to by the proposed development of the Thames tunnel in support the delivery of social care. This means, with an September 2010. ambitious programme of efficiency, that there is enough funding available both to protect people’s access to The waste water national planning statement (NPS) services and deliver new approaches to improve quality is available on the DEFRA website at the following and outcomes. link: Plans for service reform were outlined in the social http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/consult/waste- care consortium’s partnership agreement, “Think Local, water/index.htm Act Personal” launched at the national children’s and adult services conference on 4 November 2010. Led by the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services and the local government group on behalf of 21 social HEALTH care organisations, it describes the next steps for councils to personalise services and provide more comprehensive information for people who need advice on care and Adult Social Care support services. In addition to this, the consortium has also produced a number of best practice guides. The key principles for adult social care described in The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul the vision are: Burstow): We are today publishing the Government’s prevention: empowered people and strong communities will plans for adult social care services—“A Vision for Adult work together to maintain independence. Where the state is needed, it helps people to retain and regain their independence; Social Care: Capable Communities and Active Citizens”. personalisation: individuals not institutions take control of Alongside the social care vision, the Department has their care. Personal budgets, preferably as direct payments, launched a consultation on “Transparency in outcomes: are provided to all eligible people. Information about care a framework for adult social care”—a new strategic and support is available for all local people, regardless of approach to quality and outcomes in adult social care. whether or not they fund their own care; The vision sets the context for the future development partnership: care and support delivered in a partnership of social care services. It is the first step, followed by the between individuals, communities, the voluntary sector, the NHS and councils, including wider support services, such as Law Commission’s work on reforming the legal framework housing; next spring and the Commission on Funding of Care plurality: the variety of people’s needs is matched by diverse and Support next summer, towards the White Paper on service provision, with a broad market of high-quality service care and support at the end of 2011. This will set out providers; plans to establish a modern and financially sustainable protection: there are sensible safeguards against the risk of framework for care and support, and the requirements abuse or neglect. Risk is no longer an excuse to limit people’s for new legislation. freedom; 41WS Written Ministerial Statements16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 42WS

productivity: greater local accountability will drive improvements create a vibrant social enterprise sector, and a substantial and innovation to deliver higher productivity and high-quality move towards the transformation of community services. care and support services. A focus on publishing information about agreed quality outcomes will support transparency The growth of social enterprise is a priority for the and accountability; and Government. Social enterprises play a vital role in people: we can draw on a work force who can provide care delivering innovative services and creating capable and and support with skill, compassion and imagination, and confident communities. I am committed to enabling who are given the freedom and support to do so. We need the these organisations to have a significant role in the whole work force, including care workers, nurses, occupational running of health and social care services across therapists, physiotherapists and social workers, alongside the country. carers and the people who use services, to lead the changes set out in the vision. A list of the third wave of projects has been placed in the Library. Copies of the vision and the consultation document have been placed in the Library and copies are available to hon. Members from the Vote Office. HOME DEPARTMENT

Right to Request Social Enterprise Scheme Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 (Annual Report)

The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the I am announcing a third, and final, wave of 32 national Home Department (James Brokenshire): My right hon. health service organisations that will join the Department Friend the Home Secretary is today laying before Parliament of Health’s “Right to Request” social enterprise scheme. the 2009-10 annual report of the appointed person The “Right to Request”gives all primary and community under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002. The appointed care staff employed by primary care trusts (PCTs) the person is an independent person who scrutinises the use right to put a request to their PCT board to set up a of the search power introduced to support the measures social enterprise to deliver health and social care services. in the Act to seize and forfeit criminal cash. Each of these organisations has received the approval The report gives the appointed person’s opinion as to of their PCT and strategic health authority (SHA) to the circumstances and manner in which the search pursue plans to set up a social enterprise. With appropriate powers conferred by the Act are being exercised. I am support, these projects should go on to become successful pleased that the appointed person, Andrew Clarke, has and financially viable social enterprises that strengthen expressed satisfaction with the operation of the search the delivery of tailored health and social care services in power and has found that there is nothing to suggest the NHS. that the procedures are not being followed in accordance This scheme empowers staff to harness their with the Act. entrepreneurial skills and exercise leadership to improve From 1 April 2009 to the end of March 2010 over services for local communities through social enterprise. £63 million in cash was seized by law enforcement The projects include a wide range of primary and agencies in England, Wales and Northern Ireland under community care for children, families and vulnerable powers in the Act. The seizures are subject to further people, such as dental, physiotherapy, bereavement and investigation, and the cash is subject to further judicially podiatry services. The proposals range from single service approved detention, before forfeiture in the magistrates lines to whole provider arms. court. These powers are a valuable tool in the fight These latest projects join the existing group of 29 “Right against crime and the report shows that the way they to Request”projects, bringing the total number participating are used has been, and will continue to be, closely in the scheme to 61. This represents a major milestone monitored. in the delivery of the White Paper commitment to Copies of the report are available in the Vote Office. 655W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 656W

holders. The decision not to reclassify Scottish Television Written Answers to as an independent producer for BBC commissions was taken following a consultation undertaken by the previous Questions Administration. The Government’s approach will ensure a fair chance for small and independent production companies in Scotland. Tuesday 16 November 2010 Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what consultation his Department has with (a) Scottish Television, (b) Scottish Enterprise, (c) ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE trade unions in Scotland and (d) the broadcasting Departmental Press industry in Scotland prior to the Government’s decision not to accept the recommendation by Ofcom that Scottish Television should be classified as a Matthew Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for qualified independent producer. [24222] Energy and Climate Change to which local newspapers his Department had a subscription between Michael Moore: The previous Administration held a October 2008 and May 2010; on what date each such public consultation from 4 November 2009 to 2 February subscription started; and what the cost to the public 2010 on the potential reclassification of production purse was of such subscriptions. [24425] companies owned by Channel 3 licence holders. Responses were received from the following organisations: Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and Bees Nees Climate Change has a subscription for two copies of the Aberdeen Press and Journal, for its Aberdeen Office. Caledonia TV The subscription started when the Department was Channel 4 created in October 2008. The cost of the subscription Comedy Unit until May 2010 was £357.60. Eyeline Media Finestripe Productions ITV SCOTLAND IWC Media La Belle Allee Productions Ltd Broadband: Scotland Lion Television Mac TV Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Mallinson Sadler Productions Scotland whether his Department has made an assessment of the economic value of carrying out a Matchlight Limited comprehensive mapping of Scotland’s fibre Michael Darlow infrastructure. [24184] Mike Bolland Ofcom Michael Moore: The Digital Economy Act 2010, PACT which came into force in June of this year, gives Ofcom Scottish Screen a new duty to report to the Secretary of State for Scottish Government Business Innovation and Skills (BIS) every three years Skyline Productions Ltd on the UK’s communications infrastructure. Ofcom has consulted on the scope of the first report which is STV due for publication in 2011. In addition, BIS is currently Tattiemoon consulting on changes to the EU framework directive Tern TV (Directive 2002/21/EC), specifically article 12(4) which True TV and Film Ltd allows for national authorities, including national regulatory Turmeric Media authorities, to request information from companies to provide a detailed picture of the infrastructure in a UKTV member state. Ulan Productions UTV Broadcasting: Scotland Visible Ink Television.

Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Citizens Advice Scotland Scotland whether his Department has undertaken an impact assessment in respect of the economic effects on the Scottish broadcasting sector of the Government’s Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for decision not to accept the recommendation by Ofcom Scotland when he last met representatives of Citizens that Scottish Television should be classified as a Advice Scotland; and what matters were discussed at qualified independent producer. [24221] that meeting. [24138]

Michael Moore: The Department for Culture, Media Michael Moore: I last met representatives from Citizens and Sport undertook an impact assessment as part of Advice Scotland on 5 July. Among the topics discussed the public consultation on the potential reclassification were forthcoming business and funding issues for the of production companies owned by Channel 3 licence organisation. 657W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 658W

Glasgow School of Art Michael Moore: I have had many discussions with ministerial colleagues on a range of issues, including the Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for effects of the spending review in Scotland. The spending Scotland when he (a) last visited and (b) next plans to review sets out how the Government will carry out visit (i) the Glasgow School of Art and (ii) the Royal Britain’s unavoidable plan to reduce the largest deficit Scottish Academy of Music and Drama. [24134] in peacetime history. Alongside growth, the Government have prioritised fairness, including reforming the welfare Michael Moore: In September I had a meeting with system to put it on a sustainable long term footing, Universities Scotland, the representative body for Scotland’s while providing sustained routes out of poverty for the 20 higher education institutions. I have not yet had the poorest. Scotland and its regions will stand to benefit opportunity to visit the Glasgow School of Art or the from these priorities. Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama. Scotland Bill

Kenneth Calman Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when his Department expects to publish the Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland Bill. [24141] Scotland when he last met Sir Kenneth Calman; and what was discussed at that meeting. [24142] Michael Moore: The Queen’s Speech included a commitment to bring forward legislation in this first Michael Moore: I spoke with Sir Kenneth Calman on Session of Parliament to implement the recommendations 9 June 2010. We discussed the final report of the of the Commission on Scottish Devolution. The Scotland Commission on Scottish Devolution and the Government’s Bill will be published in due course. coalition commitment to implement the Commission’s Universities: Visits recommendations. I will be meeting with Sir Kenneth again in the near future. Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he (a) last visited and (b) next plans to Political Adviser visit (i) Edinburgh Napier university, (ii) Queen Margaret university, (iii) the University of Abertay, (iv) Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Glasgow Caledonian university, (v) the university of Scotland what criteria he set for candidates for the West of Scotland, (vi) Robert Gordon university, appointment as his political adviser; what (vii) the university of Stirling, (viii) the University of consideration he gave to advertising this post; and what Dundee, (ix) Heriot-Watt university, (x) the university the (a) experience, (b) salary and (c) length of of Strathclyde, (xi) the university of Aberdeen, (xii) the contract of such appointments are. [24144] university of Glasgow, (xiii) the university of St Andrews, (xiv) Edinburgh university and (xv) Michael Moore: The only appointment I have made Kilmarnock college. [24135] as Secretary of State for Scotland has been to appoint a special adviser, no political adviser has been appointed. Michael Moore: In recent weeks, I have visited the The appointment of a special adviser is a personal university of Abertay and the university of Glasgow, appointment, and, therefore, such posts are not generally and I plan to visit the university of Edinburgh early in advertised. Special advisers are appointed, and remunerated, 2011. I hope to visit as many of Scotland’s universities in accordance with guidance issued by the Cabinet and colleges as possible in the coming months. In Office. September I met Universities Scotland, the representative body for higher education institutions in Scotland, and Political Appointments I plan to meet representatives from Scotland’s colleges soon. Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Visits Abroad: Scotland Scotland how many (a) political appointments and (b) other personal appointments he has made since his Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for appointment; and what estimate he has made of the Scotland when he (a) last visited and (b) next plans to cost to the public purse of such appointments. [24143] visit Malawi. [24133]

Michael Moore: The only appointment I have made Michael Moore: Ihave(a) not visited Malawi and since my own appointment as Secretary of State for (b) have no current plans to visit Malawi. Scotland has been to appoint a special adviser. Special advisers are appointed, and remunerated, in accordance West Lothian Question with guidance issued by the Cabinet Office. Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent discussions he has had with the Public Expenditure: Scotland Deputy Prime Minister on the Commission to consider the West Lothian question; and if he will make a Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for statement. [24131] Scotland what recent discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on the likely effect on the West Michael Moore: I have continuing discussions on a Lothian local authority area of the implementation of range of matters with the Deputy Prime Minister. The proposals in the comprehensive spending review. [23903] Government are committed to establishing a commission 659W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 660W to consider the West Lothian question as set out in the (i) mothers and (ii) newborn children. We use data ‘programme for government’ and, as the Parliamentary compiled by a range of organisations, including the Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member World Health Organisation (WHO) and the Guttmacher for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) stated on 26 October Institute. 2010, Official Report, column 252W: However, DFID is commissioning research on meeting “we aim to announce our plans for a commission by the end of unmet need for family planning. The successful consortium the year.” will be announced in early 2011. The final details of the I will discuss with ministerial colleagues as plans are work programme will be developed during the first year developed. of the programme. Independent Commission for Aid Impact: Expenditure WALES Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Public Sector: Employment International Development what role the Chief Commissioner of the Independent Commission for Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Aid Impact will play in (a) assessing the effectiveness how many job losses she expects there to be in the of spending in meeting project objectives and (b) public sector in each constituency in Wales in the next selection of projects. [24607] five years. [24228] Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Chief Commissioner will Mr David Jones: The Office for Budget Responsibility lead the Independent Commission for Aid Impact (ICAI) has made employment predictions for the UK based on in assessing the impact and effectiveness of UK aid macro economic data and no figures are available at spending. This will include assessments of the effectiveness sub-national level. of spending in meeting project objectives. The ICAI will The Secretary of State and I remain committed to determine which projects and programmes will be evaluated, preserving public sector jobs in Wales wherever possible reviewed and investigated and will consult the International while ensuring that the economy is rebalanced with a Development Committee in due course. strong and vibrant private sector. Strategic Defence and Security Review

INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development which countries were Developing Countries: Maternity Services assessed as being conflict-affected and fragile for the purpose of the information provided in the Strategic Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence and Security Review. [24608] International Development what the evidential basis was for his statement at the consultation meeting on his Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Government’s assessment Department’s business plan on reproductive, maternal of conflict affected and fragile countries used in the and newborn health that (a) 70,000 women a year die development of the Strategic Defence and Security from unsafe abortions and (b) where such abortions Review draws from the all-source Countries at Risk of do not result in death, they can cause life long Instability report produced by the Cabinet Office and suffering; and if he will make a statement. [23614] departments. It is not HMG policy to make the details Mr Andrew Mitchell: The evidential basis for the of the Countries at Risk of Instability report public. Secretary of State’s statement at the consultation meeting Sudan: Human Rights is the latest updated statistics published by the World Health Organisation (WHO) on unsafe abortion (WHO Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for and HRP 2010. “Unsafe Abortion in 2008: Global and International Development what recent discussions he Regional Levels and Trends”). This is based in part on has had with representatives of the African Union on data from the Guttmacher Institute (Singh S et al. the humanitarian situation in southern Sudan. [23244] “Abortion Worldwide: A decade of uneven progress” published in 2009). Globally in 2008, an estimated Mr Andrew Mitchell: I am in regular contact with the 22 million unsafe abortions took place. Nearly all of Chairman of the African Union (AU) Commission, these were in developing countries, and resulted in Jean Ping, including on the AU’s role in Sudan. I was about 70,000 deaths of women and girls. unable to meet with the AU’s chief mediator on Sudan, President Mbeki, on my recent visit, since he was tied Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for up with the talks on the referenda and completion of International Development what research his the comprehensive peace agreement. Department has (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated on the relationship between the level of access to However, I spoke to a range of people involved in the abortion and the number of deaths of (i) mothers in AU high level process, including Vice President Taha pregnancy or birth and (ii) newborn children; what and President Kiir, UNSG Menkerios and the US methodology was used in such research; and if he will ambassador. I pressed the importance of a peaceful and make a statement. [23622] credible process, to minimise the risk of conflict and humanitarian problems, as well as contingency planning Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International for any humanitarian problems. I also spoke to the Joint Development (DFID) has not directly commissioned AU/UN Special Representative in Darfur, Ibrahimn research on the relationship between the level of access Gambari, about links between conflict and humanitarian to safe, legal abortion and the number of deaths of issues in Darfur and Southern Sudan. 661W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 662W

Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Global Political Agreement (GPA). Farm workers suffer International Development what recent discussions he equally with farm owners, often losing their accommodation has had with representatives of the UN on the as well as their livelihood. humanitarian situation in southern Sudan. [23245] Our embassy in Harare monitors the situation closely and continues to make clear our concerns to the Mr Andrew Mitchell: During my recent visit to Sudan, Government of Zimbabwe. The consul met with British I had extensive discussions on this issue with UN farmers in July to further understand their concerns representatives, including Baroness Amos, UN Under- and see what assistance we might be able to offer. Our Secretary-General and Emergency Relief Co-ordinator; ambassador has raised the issue directly with the Minister Alan Le Roy, UN Under-Secretary-General for for Justice and Legal Affairs. Violent invasions demonstrate Peacekeeping Operations; Haile Menkerios, Special a lack of respect for the rule of law. We continue to urge Representative of the UN Secretary-General for Sudan; the police and judicial authorities in Zimbabwe to take Georg Charpentier the Humanitarian Co-ordinator in action against them. Sudan; and with the heads of in-country teams for the Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) and the World Food Programme (WFP). FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE British Nationals Abroad: Prisoners Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what recent discussions he Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for has had with representatives of the EU on the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many UK humanitarian situation in southern Sudan. [23246] nationals are in prison in (a) Jamaica, (b) Nigeria, (c) the Irish Republic, (d) Poland, (e) Vietnam, (f) Mr Andrew Mitchell: During my recent visit to Sudan, Pakistan, (g) Somalia, (h) Romania, (i) China, (j) I had discussions on the humanitarian situation in Lithuania, (k) another EU Member State and (l) Sudan with the EU ambassador and senior representatives another foreign country. [23314] of the EU delegation in Sudan. We discussed work to maximise the chances of a peaceful and credible referendum, Mr Jeremy Browne: On 30 September 2010, there on the possible succession of Southern Sudan, in January were (a) 39 British nationals in prison in Jamaica, (b) 2011. But we also discussed preparations for any outbreaks two in Nigeria, (c) 101 in the Irish Republic, (d) 0in of violence and humanitarian need. The Department Poland, (e) two in Vietnam, (f) 15 in Pakistan, (g) 0in for International Development (DFID) and the Somalia, (h) four in Romania, (i) 22 in China (j) one humanitarian aid arm of the European Commission in Lithuania, (k) 750 in other EU member states, and (ECHO) work closely together in Sudan on humanitarian (1) 1,657 in other foreign countries. issues across the country. Iran: Human Rights

Sudan: International Assistance Mrs Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make representations at UN level to establish a monitoring Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for mechanism to report on human rights in Iran to the International Development what his Department’s (a) General Assembly and (b) Human Rights long-term strategy is to support Southern Sudan’s Council. [24541] progress towards the millennium development goals. [23235] Mr Jeremy Browne: We remain deeply concerned by the appalling human rights situation in Iran, which has Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International deteriorated markedly since the disputed June 2009 Development (DFID) is undertaking a review of all the elections. The UK has worked closely with the EU and UK’s bilateral aid programmes including in Sudan, and with international partners to raise concerns and encourage its Southern region. Given uncertainty about the outcome Iran to fulfil its domestic and international obligations of the referendum in January, and the need to retain the including through tough resolutions at the UN General ability to respond to any humanitarian crisis that might Assembly. We are keen that the UN should respond to occur in the early part of 2011, we aim to have a and monitor all serious human rights situations and are long-term strategy in place by April 2011. in regular dialogue with all UN members to encourage support for this, both in the General Assembly and the Zimbabwe: Agriculture Human Rights Council. Israel: Borders Neil Parish: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what recent representations Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign his Department has made to the Government of and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has Zimbabwe on attacks on farmers and agricultural received on the number of roadblocks in the West Bank workers. [23906] which have been removed by the government of Israel; and if he will make a statement. [21938] Mr Bellingham: I have been asked to reply. Alistair Burt: According to the UN’s most recent The farm invasions by Zimbabwe African National annual report (published in June 2010) on “West Bank Union Patriotic Front (ZANU (PF)) supporters contravene Movement and Access” the number of roadblocks in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) the west bank was 505. This was in comparison to ruling of November 2008 as well as the terms of the 626 the previous year. 663W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 664W

While we welcome the improvements around the west discussed MEPP with former French Foreign Minister bank, access into and within the west bank remains Kouchner on 14 October, with Jordanian Foreign Minister seriously restricted, and further easing is essential to Judeh on 23 October and with right hon. Tony Blair on help the Palestinian economy grow. 30 October.

Japan: Whales Philippines: Crimes of Violence Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent received of assaults on nurses in the Philippines; discussions he has had with his Japanese counterpart whether he has had recent discussions with the on whaling; and if he will make a statement. [24065] government of the Philippines on that matter; and if he will make a statement. [23623] Mr Jeremy Browne: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs raised Mr Jeremy Browne: We have received only one recent whaling during his visit to Japan in July and I raised the report of an attack on a nurse in the Philippines: the issue during my visit to Japan in September. The Japanese case of the rape of a nurse on 25 September in South Government are in no doubt of the strength of feeling Upi town in Maguindanao in the southern Philippines. in this country about this issue, and that the UK considers We have not raised the specific issue of attacks on Japan’s lethal whaling for ‘scientific’ research wholly nurses with the Philippines authorities. unnecessary. Sudan: Referendums Middle East: Armed Conflict Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for representations he has made to the government of Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is Sudan on eligibility to vote in the referendum planned taking to achieve a two-state solution to the Israeli- for January 2011. [24507] Palestinian conflict. [24014] Mr Bellingham: The UK has consistently underlined Alistair Burt [holding answer 15 November 2010]: to the Governments of Sudan and Southern Sudan, This conflict matters to British national security: we and the Southern Sudan Referendum Commission, the will continue to take every opportunity to promote need to make urgent progress towards the Southern peace, working with all parties, the US and our EU and Sudan referendum. This has included the need for clear UN partners. and fair eligibility criteria with accessible language which Our goal is a secure and universally recognised Israel can be made public. We welcome the start of registration living alongside a sovereign, viable and contiguous on 15 November. Palestinian state, based on the borders of 1967, with Jerusalem the future capital of both states, and a fair Turkey: British Council settlement for refugees. Mr Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs discussed these ensure that the level of funding allocated by the British issues during his recent visit to the region and underlined Council to projects in Turkey is maintained. [23641] the need for a renewal of Israel’s moratorium on settlement construction. He is also in regular contact with Secretary Mr Jeremy Browne: The British Council works Clinton and Senator Mitchell on progress. In addition independently of Her Majesty’s Government. It is reviewing we will continue our work supporting those building the the implications of the spending review settlement and institutions of a future Palestinian state, and continue has not yet reached a decision what impact the reduction to work with partners to secure greater change on the in grant in aid will have on individual operations. ground in Gaza. The British Council is committed to maintaining its global network and Turkey will remain a priority country Middle East: Peace Negotiations within that network.

Simon Danczuk: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent PRIME MINISTER discussions he has had with (a) the US Secretary of State, (b) the French Foreign Minister, (c) the Chequers Egyptian Foreign Minister, (d) the Jordanian Foreign Minister and (e) the Quartet’s Middle East peace Mr Watson: To ask the Prime Minister (1) on how envoy on the Middle East peace process. [23035] many occasions he has met (a) the Chairman of Associated Newspapers, (b) the Chairman of Mirror Alistair Burt: We are in regular contact with the US Group Newspapers, (c) the Chairman of Express and the other key partners cited on the middle east Newspapers and (d) the Director General of the BBC peace process (MEPP) at both ministerial and official at Chequers since 12 May 2010; [23752] level. (2) how much time he spent with Mr James Murdoch My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for during their meeting at Chequers during the weekend Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs is holding further of 6 and 7 November 2010; and which (a) Ministers discussions with Secretary Clinton this week. He also and (b) civil servants were present; [23753] 665W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 666W

(3) what issues he discussed with Mr James Murdoch However, the Secretary of State has corresponded during the latter’s visit to Chequers during the weekend with the Communities Secretary on the likely effects of of 6 and 7 November 2010. [23754] the outcomes of the spending review 2010 on the reform of the coroner service, and separately on the funding of The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the certain inquests. list of official meetings by Ministers with external organisations which is published on a quarterly basis, in Data Protection accordance with the ministerial code, and to the list of guests who have received official hospitality at Chequers Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for which is published on an annual basis. Information for Justice what steps his Department has taken to (a) 2010-2011 will be published in the usual way at the end promote and (b) enforce the Information of the financial year. Commissioner’s Code of Conduct in relation to data protection in the last 24 months. [23814] Departmental Internet Mr Djanogly: I understand the question refers to the Luciana Berger: To ask the Prime Minister by (1) personal information online code of practice issued by what mechanisms he is undertaking his review of the the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) in July system for e-petitions to No. 10 Downing street; 2010. [24078] Discussions took place between the MoJ and the (2) what representations he has received from (a) ICO about the code of practice during the ICO’s public individual members of the public and (b) consultation, and the Government support the code’s organisations on his review of the system for aims. However the ICO is independent of Government e-petitions to No. 10 Downing street; [24079] in the way it discharges its statutory responsibilities in (3) whether he plans to take steps to encourage respect of the Data Protection Act, Freedom of Information members of the public and organisations to participate Act, Environmental Information Regulations and Privacy in his review of the system for e-petitions to No. and Electronic Communications Regulations and so the 10 Downing street. [24080] promotion and enforcement of the code are matters for the ICO. The Prime Minister: The future of e-petitions is being reviewed by Martha Lane Fox as part of her review of Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for all Government digital communications and engagement. Justice what recent assessment he has made of the The conclusions of her review will be announced shortly. effectiveness of the Information Commissioner’s Code of Conduct in relation to data protection. [23815] Members: Allowances Mr Djanogly: I understand the question refers to the Bob Russell: To ask the Prime Minister pursuant to personal information online code of practice issued by his answer of 26 October 2010, Official Report, column the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) in July 495W, on Members: allowances, what steps he has 2010. taken to press for improvements in the service provided Discussions took place between the MoJ and the by the Independent Parliamentary Standards ICO about the code of practice during the ICO’s public Authority; and if he will make a statement. [24517] consultation, and the Government support the code’s aims. However, the ICO is independent of Government The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to my in the way it discharges its statutory responsibilities in answer of 14 July 2010, Official Report, column 946. respect of the Data Protection Act, Freedom of Information Act, Environmental Information Regulations and Privacy and Electronic Communications Regulations. It would therefore not be appropriate for the Government to JUSTICE assess the effectiveness of this code of practice.

Coroner Service: Departmental Coordination Google

Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) on what occasions he has met (a) Ministers Justice if he will make an assessment of the and (b) officials in the Department of Communities Information Commissioner’s co-ordination with his and Local Government to discuss the Coroners’ international counterparts on Google’s harvesting of Service since his appointment; [24283] data as part of its Street View project; and if he will (2) whether he has had discussions with the Secretary make a statement. [23813] of State for Communities and Local Government on the likely effects on service provision by the Coroners’ Mr Djanogly: The Information Commissioner’s Office Service of the outcomes of the Comprehensive (ICO) discharges its statutory responsibilities in respect Spending Review. [24284] of the Data Protection Act, Freedom of Information Act, Environmental Information Regulations and Privacy Mr Djanogly: The Secretary of State for Justice has and Electronic Communications Regulations independently not met with the Department of Communities and of Government. It would not be appropriate for the Local Government to discuss the Coroners’ Service Government to comment on the ICO’s co-ordination since his appointment. with its international counterparts in individual cases. 667W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 668W

Homicide: Death Certificates Magistrates Courts

Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gale: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if Justice (1) or what reasons (a) an inquest into a he will bring forward proposals to increase the number murder and (b) the issue of a death certificate does not of cases tried before the magistrates courts and to take place until after the completion of criminal reduce the number of minor offences heard by the proceedings; [24126] Crown courts. [24084] (2) if he will review the effects on the family of a murdered person of the (a) holding of inquests and Mr Blunt: It is in the interests of efficiency that cases (b) issue of death certificates taking place only after should be dealt with in magistrates courts unless the higher sentencing powers of the Crown court are required, the conclusion of any criminal proceedings. [24127] and the Government are considering how best to achieve Mr Djanogly: Section 16 of the Coroners Act 1988 that result. Much time and effort is wasted in the many provides that the coroner shall adjourn an inquest, in cases that reach the Crown court and subsequently end the absence of any reason to the contrary, if a criminal in a plea of guilty; this is a particular cause for concern, charge has been brought in connection with the death. and we would like to encourage defendants in these Section 16 also provides that the coroner should only cases to plead guilty at the magistrates court stage. resume an inquest after the completion of criminal Equally, the Government have made it clear that they proceedings if there is sufficient cause. This is because a will protect defendants’ rights to jury trial. criminal trial will often address the same issues as an Magistrates Courts: Closures inquest, namely who the deceased was and how, when and where he or she came by their death. Bereaved Mr Gale: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice families are therefore spared the distress of attending what assessment he has made of the effects of the two separate judicial proceedings. closures of magistrates courts on the number of minor Section 16 states further that where a coroner has offences that can be heard in those courts. [24085] adjourned an inquest, he or she shall send a certificate to the registrar of deaths. This certificate should state, Mr Djanogly: Closures of magistrates courts are not so far as has been ascertained, the particulars required expected to affect the number of minor offences that for registration of the death under the Births and Deaths can be heard in those courts. Registration Act 1953. Therefore criminal proceedings Utilisation rates, the number of hours the time a should not delay the issuing of the death certificate for courtroom is used, against the hours that a courtroom registration purposes. is available for use, averaged 64% across the magistrates Legal Services Commission: Procurement courts in 2009-10. If all the proposed closures went ahead and workload transferred to surrounding courts, it is estimated that it would result in a national utilisation Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for rate in the magistrates courts of around 80%. Justice what guidance was (a) sought by the Legal Services Commission (LSC) from the Office of This essentially should mean that a similar amount Government Commerce (OGC) and (b) provided by and type of work as is heard currently will be heard at a the OGC to the LSC in respect of the LSC’s tendering fewer number of courts, not that the number of minor activities in 2010. [24318] offences that can be heard will rise or fall. Non-molestation Orders Mr Djanogly: Decisions made under the tender process for the award of legal aid contracts are a matter for the LSC, which is responsible for administering the legal Mrs Grant: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice aid scheme. pursuant to the answer of 20 July 2010, Official Report, column 235W, on non-molestation orders, when he I understand that in formulating its plans, specifications expects his Department’s programme of work and criteria during 2008-09 for the 2010 tenders, the accurately to record convictions of those who breach LSC did not seek formal guidance from OGC. Nevertheless, their injunctions to begin. [24537] the tender process was designed using the guidance available from OGC and at each stage of the process Mr Blunt: Pursuant to the answer of 20 July 2010, detailed advice was sought from specialist lawyers and work undertaken by the Ministry of Justice resolved a counsel regarding the nature of the service to be procured previous recording issue of offences resulting from a and any regulations pertaining to them to ensure that breach of a previously imposed court order. This enabled the process, criteria and supporting documentation were the inclusion of these data for the first time in the all compliant with relevant UK and EU procurement National Statistics publication ‘Criminal Statistics’, England legislation. and Wales 2009 on 21 October 2010. The e-tendering system used by the LSC in the tenders The number of defendants found guilty of breaching was itself procured from an OGC framework, and was a non-molestation order at all courts in England and judged to be compliant in its operations with OGC and Wales 2009 was 2,277. legislative requirements. Finally, the staff responsible for the exercise have had Sentencing extensive experience of commissioning services, including the Executive Director for Commissioning, who was Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Chief Executive of OGC buying solutions before joining Justice pursuant to the answer of 4 November 2010, the LSC. Official Report, columns 888-90W, on sentencing, of 669W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 670W what offences categories those who did not receive an Table 3: Number of offenders with 51 to 75 previous convictions or cautions who did not receive an immediate custodial sentence for an indictable offence by immediate custodial sentence with (a) 16 to 25, (b) 26 offence category, 2007-09 to 50, (c) 51 to 75, (d) 76 to 100 and (e) 101 or more England and Wales previous convictions or cautions had been convicted. Number of offenders [23825] 2007 2008 2009

Drug offences 90 131 199 Mr Blunt: Tables 1 to 5 show figures for sentences Indictable motoring 131 given for indictable offences to offenders with 16 or offences more previous convictions or cautions, who did not Other indictable offences 161 185 178 receive an immediate custodial sentence, by category of Total 1,605 2,091 2,660 offence. These figures are derived from table 6.2 of ‘Sentencing Statistics: England and Wales 2009’ which Table 4: Number of offenders with 76 to 100 previous convictions or cautions was published on 21 October 2010. who did not receive an immediate custodial sentence for an indictable offence by offence category, 2007-09 Table 1: Number of offenders with 16 to 25 previous convictions or cautions who England and Wales did not receive an immediate custodial sentence for an indictable offence by offence category, 2007-09 Number of offenders England and Wales 2007 2008 2009 Number of offenders Violence against the person 76 81 94 2007 2008 2009 Sexual offences 1 — — Violence against the person 2,193 2,270 2,471 Burglary 2 11 12 Sexual offences 62 85 63 Robbery — — — Burglary 1,701 1,689 1,557 Theft and handling stolen 200 273 280 goods Robbery 527472 Fraud and forgery 2 7 10 Theft and handling stolen 12,089 13,710 14,042 goods Criminal damage 2 9 1 Fraud and forgery 675 681 719 Drug offences 5 20 19 Criminal damage 699 615 594 Indictable motoring ——— offences Drug offences 3,962 4,751 5,260 Other indictable offences 46 44 39 Indictable motoring 125 117 120 offences Total 334 445 455 Other indictable offences 3,729 3,512 3,207 Total 25,287 27,504 28,105 Table 5: Number of offenders with 101 or more previous convictions or cautions who did not receive an immediate custodial sentence for an indictable offence by offence category, 2007-09 Table 2: Number of offenders with 26 to 50 previous convictions or cautions who England and Wales did not receive an immediate custodial sentence for an indictable offence by offence category, 2007-09 Number of offenders England and Wales 2007 2008 2009 Number of offenders Violence against the person 51 85 93 2007 2008 2009 Sexual offences — 1 1 Violence against the person 1,196 1,241 1,363 Burglary — 5 1 Sexual offences 30 26 27 Robbery — — — Burglary 1,028 1,153 1,116 Theft and handling stolen 139 203 241 goods Robbery 163016 Fraud and forgery 5 4 2 Theft and handling stolen 9,641 11,659 12,976 goods Criminal damage 4 1 — Fraud and forgery 323 355 356 Drug offences 5 6 9 Criminal damage 274 283 293 Indictable motoring ——— offences Drug offences 1,887 2,402 2,833 Other indictable offences 39 35 38 Indictable motoring 47 47 33 offences Total 243 340 385 Other indictable offences 1,925 1,984 1,900 Total 16,367 19,180 20,913 The figures have been drawn from the police’s administrative IT system, the police national computer, Table 3: Number of offenders with 51 to 75 previous convictions or cautions who which, as with any large scale recording system, is did not receive an immediate custodial sentence for an indictable offence by subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. offence category, 2007-09 The figures are provisional and subject to change as England and Wales more information is recorded by the police. Number of offenders 2007 2008 2009 Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007: Debt Violence against the person 151 186 251 Collection Sexual offences 3 4 3 Burglary 56 61 72 Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for Robbery — 1 — Justice pursuant to the answer of 21 October 2010, Theft and handling stolen 1,095 1,455 1,903 goods Official Report, column 880W, on the Tribunals, Courts Fraud and forgery 26 37 31 and Enforcement Act 2007: debt collection, when he Criminal damage 22 28 22 expects the public consultation on protection against aggressive bailiffs to commence. [24013] 671W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 672W

Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice Business Plan Decommissioning Authority (NDA) in order to inform 2011-15, published on 8 November 2010, states we will their management of these sensitive sites. A feasibility develop options for public consultation on protection report on Calder Hall, informed by English Heritage’s against aggressive bailiffs and to encourage more flexibility work, is available on the NDA’s website. Various in bailiff collections by the end of December 2010. components at Calder Hall were considered for listing I expect the public consultation on protection against in 2006, but not recommended for designation. While aggressive bailiffs to commence once we have fully the Secretary of State has no plans at present to consider developed and confirmed the options. such sites for listing, discussions are under way between the heritage bodies of England, Scotland and Wales to Young Offenders Institutions: Legal Opinion consider a shared approach to this challenging aspect of Britain’s technological achievement. Mrs Grant: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what proportion of young offender institutions employ Departmental Lobbying a legal services officer. [24557] Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Blunt: As of 15 October 2010, of the 56 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much his establishments that hold young offenders and/or young Department’s agencies and non-departmental public people under 18 years of age, 40 had a legal services bodies spent from the public purse on influencing officer (or officers), as defined by Prison Service Order public policy through (a) employing external (i) public 2605 ’The Role of the Legal Services (Previously Legal affairs companies, (ii) strategic consultancies and (iii) Aid) Officer’ and 16 did not. However, of the 16 who corporate communications firms, (b) external did not, six establishments had other staff members marketing and (c) other activities in each of the last able to assist with legal issues when required and in two 10 years. [23757] others appointments were pending. John Penrose: The Department does not hold this information. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Accordingly, I have asked the chief executive of our BBC Wales: Television agency and each non-departmental public body to respond to the hon. Member for Harlow directly. Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for A copy of the responses will be placed in the Library Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what discussions of both Houses. he has had with the BBC Trust on the launch of BBC One Wales in high definition. [24514] Digital Broadcasting: Hearing Impairment

Mr Vaizey: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, has had Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent no discussions with the BBC Trust on the launch of representations he has received on subtitling for the BBC One Wales in high definition. This is essentially an deaf on digital channels; and if he will make a operational issue for which the BBC is responsible. statement. [23879] BBC: Expenditure Mr Vaizey: On 11 June 2010, Ofcom published a John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for statement following a review of television access services Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment (subtitling, audio description and signing) in the UK. he has made of the likely effects of the reduction in On 14 July 2010, the Government responded to Ofcom’s expenditure planned by the BBC over the next four review. Since responding to Ofcom’s review, the Secretary years on its ability to meet its public service of State has received one letter from a member of the obligations; and what mechanisms are in place to public and two letters from my hon. Friend the Member ensure that the services consequent on those for Witham (Priti Patel), on behalf of a constituent, on obligations are maintained. [24712] subtitling for the deaf on digital channels.

Mr Vaizey: The Government have made no assessment. Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for The BBC Trust is responsible for ensuring the BBC Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) whether his meets its public service obligations under the charter Department (a) is taking and (b) plans to take steps and agreement. to increase the quality of subtitling for the deaf on digital television channels; [23880] Cultural Heritage: Nuclear Power Stations (2) whether his Department is taking steps to increase the availability of subtitling for the deaf on Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for digital television channels; [23949] Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether his Department has made an assessment of the (a) (3) whether his Department plans to ensure that heritage value of England’s built nuclear environment subtitling for the deaf is available on all digital and (b) merits of the listing of such sites. [24073] channels in the UK; and if he will make a statement; [23950] John Penrose: Neither this Department nor its expert (4) what his most recent assessment is of progress of advisers, English Heritage, has completed any such ITV and Channel 4 towards meeting the requirement overall assessment. Preliminary research work has been to subtitle 90 per cent. of programming by the end of undertaken, however, and shared with the Nuclear 2010. [23951] 673W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 674W

Mr Vaizey: Broadcasters already have to meet demanding Video works classified by BBFC targets for subtitling. The Communications Act 2003 Number sets minimum targets for the subtitling of programmes 2007 12,229 by licensees. For the majority of broadcasters the minimum target for subtitling is 80% to be achieved within a 2008 11,439 10 year period, with more demanding targets set for 2009 6,946 some of the public service broadcasting services. In A breakdown of data showing only the number of 2011 70 separate channels will be required to provide films released on DVD which received classification by subtitling; accounting for just over 90% of UK audience the BBFC is not readily available. share in 2009. In addition, any timeshifted or simulcast HD versions of these channels are also obliged to No data are recorded for films released on DVD provide subtitling. which are exempt from classification, as this exemption renders them outside of any administrative process. In determining which channels are required to provide subtitling, Ofcom considers audience share (channels Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for achieving an average audience share of all UK households Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will bring over a 12 month period of 0.05% or less are excluded forward proposals to require the UK-based producers from the requirements) and affordability. of DVDs to provide a subtitle option for all content. On August 2010 Ofcom published its quarterly report [24485] on the provision of access services (subtitling, signing and audio description) by broadcasters for the second Mr Vaizey: There are no plans to bring forward quarter of 2010. Ofcom’s report shows that the BBC proposals to require the UK-based producers of DVDs subtitled 99.8% of its programmes, and ITV and Channel to provide a subtitle option for all content. 4 both exceeded their subtitling targets of 90%. Indeed, many other broadcasters also exceeded their targets, Football often substantially. If a broadcaster fails to meet its obligations over the Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for course of a year, Ofcom requires the deficit to be made Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport pursuant to the up during the following year. answer of 21 June 2010, Official Report, column 14W, on football club governance, (1) what progress has been The full report can be found at: made on exploring better ways to involve supporters in http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/market-data-research/ their local clubs; [24415] market-data/tv-sector-data/tv-access-services-reports/q110/ (2) what steps he plans to take to encourage the Ofcom has provided guidance on quality of subtitling Football Association, Premier League and Football in annex 2 of the Code on Television Access Services: League to work closely together to improve the http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/broadcast/other- governance and regulation of the game. [24416] codes/ctas.pdf It is for broadcasters to take this into account when Hugh Robertson: My current priority is to win the producing subtitling. World Cup bid for 2018. Ofcom also requires television service providers to Following the conclusion of this work, I will continue promote awareness of the availability of their television my discussions with the football authorities on the access services including subtitling, to potential users of question of governance reform and supporter involvement. the services by making available accurate and timely As outlined in the DCMS Business Plan, I plan to set information to electronic programme guide (EPG) operators out the way forward in these areas in May 2011. listing their services, and by providing similar information To their credit, the Premier League has already taken on their website. steps to introduce a number of new rules for this season, specifically in the areas of club ownership and Film: Children financial reporting. We continue to monitor the effect of these changes and what further action might be necessary. Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) how many Public Expenditure films released on DVD received a classification from the British Board of Film Classification in (a) 2007, (b) 2008 and (c) 2009; [24447] Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether his (2) how many DVDs that were exempt from Department has established processes to monitor any classification were released in (a) 2007, (b) 2008 and effects of proposed reductions in its expenditure. [24448] (c) 2009. [21636]

Mr Vaizey: The Department does not hold the John Penrose: The Department explored the implications information requested. of reductions during the spending review process and The British Board of Film Classification (BBFC) we will continue to work closely with our public bodies published the figures for all video works released on to manage the changes. DVD, including films which received a classification by On 8 November we published a new Business Plan them in the years 2007, 2008 and 2009 on their website. for 2011-15, which details the priorities and major These figures are included in the table, for reference: reforms to reflect the new settlement. Implementation 675W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 676W of the Business Plan will be monitored by the DCMS Empty Dwelling Management Orders Board, with updates on progress against actions published on a monthly basis. Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many (a) Sports: Clubs empty dwelling management orders have been made and (b) empty properties have been returned to use Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for through an empty dwelling management order in each Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what local authority area since the introduction of such representations he has received on the effects on local orders. [23645] communities of co-operative sports clubs. [24076] Hugh Robertson: According to our records, this Andrew Stunell: A list of empty dwelling management Department has received no recent representations on orders authorised by the Residential Property Tribunal the effects on local communities of co-operative sports Service in each local authority since they were introduced clubs. is set out in the following table. We do not hold information on how many of the properties have been returned to Television: Disability Aids use.

Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Authority Number of EDMOs Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent discussions he has had with Ofcom on the code on Bolton BC 2 Carlisle DC 3 television access services. [23952] LB Bromley 2 Mr Vaizey: On 11 June 2010, Ofcom published a LB Hammersmith and Fulham 1 statement following a review of television access services LB Hounslow 1 in the UK. On 14 July 2010, the Government responded LB Lewisham 7 to Ofocm’s review. New Forest DC 1 The Government’s response, as well as more information Norwich City C 7 on this review, is available on the Department for Culture, Oxford City council 1 Olympics, Media and Sport’s website, and can be found Peterborough CC 2 using the link: South Gloucestershire council 1 http://www.culture.gov.uk/publications/7237.aspx#letters South Lakeland 1 The Secretary of State has had no recent discussions South Norfolk DC 1 with Ofcom on the code on television access services South Oxfordshire DC 1 since responding to Ofcom’s review. South Tyneside BC 1 Southend on Sea 3 Staffordshire Moorlands DC 1 Stockton on Tees council 1 COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Swale BC 1 Allotments Wolverhampton City council 1 Wychavon DC 1 Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Total 40 Communities and Local Government what his policy is on restrictions on allotment holders selling surplus produce to local markets and shops. [24436] Fire Services: East of England Andrew Stunell: An allotment garden must, by definition, be ’wholly or mainly cultivated by the occupier for the Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for production of vegetable or fruit crops for consumption Communities and Local Government when he expects by himself or his family’ (Allotments Act 1922). There the Eastern Region Fire Control Centre to be is no legal restriction on allotment holders selling genuine operational. [23557] surplus produce, nor do the Government believe that there should be. Robert Neill [holding answer 15 November 2010]: The East of England control centre would not become Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings operational until after mid-2011 on current timetables. It is not one of the first three control centres in which Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for the IT system is required to be completed by the main Communities and Local Government whether any (a) FiReControl contractor EADS (now branded Cassidian) Ministers, (b) civil servants and (c) politically- for that date. appointed staff in his Department have been disciplined for defamation since his appointment; and I refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher) if he will make a statement. [23831] on 15 November 2010, Official Report, column 537W, Robert Neill: Since the Secretary of State for the for steps that we have taken to ensure that EADS will Department for Communities and Local Government’s meet their contractual obligations. appointment there have been no instances of disciplinary The FiReControl project, initiated by the last action for defamation against (a) Ministers, (b) civil Government, is over-budget and behind schedule. As servants and (c) politically-appointed staff. with all major Government projects, it is being reviewed 677W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 678W to ensure value-for-money for the taxpayer. We have Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and been clear that EADS must deliver to time, cost and Local Government’s Business Plan states that the quality. The new Government are committed to ensuring Government: value for money for the taxpayer, improving resilience “will decide on proposals already submitted under the Sustainable and stopping the forced regionalisation of the fire service. Communities Act, and publish related steps the Government will take to enable local authorities to achieve what they want to see Institute for Fiscal Studies happen” by January 2011. Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much his Non-domestic Rates: Surcharges Department and its predecessors spent on services provided by the Institute for Fiscal Studies in each of Conor Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for the last 10 years. [23403] Communities and Local Government from what budget the cost of holding a binding vote on local Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and authority proposals to introduce a local supplement on Local Government (DCLG) and its predecessor the business rates would be met; and by what means such a Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (ODPM) were binding vote would be held. [24060] created following the machinery of government changes on 5 May 2006 and 29 May 2002, respectively. Robert Neill: It will be the responsibility of the levying Since the inception of ODPM, the annual total of authority to cover the cost of running a business rate payments to the Institute of Fiscal Studies is as follows: supplement ballot. It is intended that a business rate supplement vote would be held via a postal ballot. A £ successful outcome will be where there is a simple majority of those who have voted in favour both in 2002-03 229.25 terms of the number of properties liable for the 2003-04 666.25 business rate supplement and the rateable value they 2004-95 5,493.13 represent. 2005-06 0 2006-07 0 Social Rented Housing: Lewisham 2007-08 0 2008-09 9,921.00 Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009-10 31,363.00 Communities and Local Government what proportion 2010-11 1,670.00 of the planned funding for decent homes announced in the comprehensive spending review will be made The 2010-11 spending comprises £70 on research available to the Lewisham arms length management publications, and £1,600 on a training course that took organisation. [24445] place before the general election. Expenditure figures prior to 2002-03 are not available Andrew Stunell: In the spending review we announced and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. that we will invest over £2 billion of capital funding to help towards completing the Decent Homes programme. Ironbridge Gorge Of this, nearly £1.6 billion will be available over the next four years to help make local authority homes decent. David Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for We will be working with the Homes and Communities Communities and Local Government what progress Agency to ensure that funding is allocated where it is had been made on assessing the extent of land needed. On 11 November we launched a consultation instability in the Ironbridge Gorge. [21228] document jointly with the Homes and Communities Agency (HCA) containing our proposals for managing Robert Neill: My Department commissioned Advantage the allocation process. West Midlands to procure consultants (Wardell Armstrong) to verify the nature and scale of the land instability Travellers problems in the Ironbridge Gorge. My officials have completed the review of the consultants’ report and the Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for long-term strategy for addressing the land instability Communities and Local Government what assessment issues in Ironbridge Gorge is being considered following he has made of the progress of his Department’s the outcome of the spending review published on review of the law affecting Travellers; and if he will 20 October 2010. make a statement. [23883]

Local Government: Sustainable Development Andrew Stunell: We are working on proposals to strengthen the powers that local authorities have to Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for enforce against breaches of planning control and limiting Communities and Local Government when he plans to the opportunities for retrospective planning applications make a decision on the proposals for local in relation to any form of unauthorised development. sustainability strategies made by local authorities The Government will bring into force section 318 of under the Sustainable Communities Act 2007 that have the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 which includes been shortlisted by the Local Government Association. local authority Traveller sites in the Mobile Homes [24667] Act 1983. 679W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 680W

Later this month we will be introducing the Localism ATTORNEY-GENERAL Bill to Parliament, which will abolish regional strategies. Crown Prosecution Service Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what recent representations he has received on the law relating to Mr Umunna: To ask the Attorney-General what Travellers; and if he will make a statement. [23884] plans he has for the future of each Crown Prosecution Service office. [24036] Andrew Stunell: Between 18 June 2010 and 10 November 2010, we received 268 letters from members of the The Solicitor-General: The following table records public, 123 items of ministerial correspondence, two each property on the CPS estate. Planned closures have petitions and two Freedom of Information requests on been agreed for a number of properties and these are issues related to Travellers. The majority of these are noted on the table. Unless noted otherwise, it is planned about planning policy and about 30 relate to trespass that the majority of other sites will be retained at least and unauthorised encampments. until the next lease break opportunity or lease expiry.

Location Property Break date Lease expiry date Plan

Ashton Police Station 21 January 2015 20 January 2030 No site specific plan Aylesbury Prebendal Court No break date 3 January 2013 No site specific plan Barrow in Furness Emlyn Hughes House 1 October 2018 1 October 2023 No site specific plan Birkenhead Atlantic House 30 April 2011 30 April 2016 Office vacant, break exercised and interest will be disposed 30 April 2011 Birmingham Colmore Gate No break date 23 June 2019 No site specific plan Blackpool Prudential House n/a 10 November 2015 New lease has six month rolling break. Staff have moved to Preston and break will be exercised this month bringing the lease to an end in May 2011 Bolton Police Station 21 January 2015 20 January 2030 No site specific plan Bournemouth Oxford House No break date 28 September 2012 No site specific plan Bradford Windsor House No break date 30 September 2018 No site specific plan Brighton Dyke Road City Gate 18 October 2012 17 October 2017 Staff to relocate from Eastbourne Bristol Froomsgate House No break date 23 June 2012 No site specific plan Burnley Burnley Wharf, No break date 25 June 2018 No site specific plan Canterbury Riding Gate House No break date 22 September 2023 No site specific plan Cardiff Capital Tower (floors 19-21) 7 December 2016 7 December 2021 No site specific plan Cardiff Capital Tower (part 13th floor) No break date 5 January 2020 No site specific plan Carlisle Stocklund House No break date 31 January 2011 Staff from Workington relocated here earlier this year. Business case for extending lease is being considered. Carmarthen Caebanc Owned Owned No site specific plan Chelmsford County House No break date 29 March 2019 No site specific plan Chester Windsor House No break date 23 June 2014 No site specific plan Chichester Citygates No break date 8 March 2013 No site specific plan Chippenham Fox Talbot House No break date 24 December 2019 No site specific plan Colwyn Bay Llys Eirias No break date 24 June 2018 No site specific plan Coventry Friars House (4th-10th Floors) No break date 24 December 2014 No site specific plan Crosby Heron House No break date 6 May 2016 No site specific plan Croydon Southern House No break date 27 September 2019 No site specific plan Cwmbran Vantage Point House 24 March 2018 24 March 2023 No site specific plan Derby St Peters House No break date 24 March 2010 Office to close in 2011 and staff to relocate to other CPS sites Droitwich Artillery House No break date 28 September 2018 No site specific plan Eastbourne St Leonards Road No break date 31 March 2011 Office to close in 2011 and staff relocate to Brighton Eastleigh Black Horse House No break date 3 November 2011 Office to close in 2011 and staff relocate to Winchester Crown court Exeter Hawkins House No break date 24 March 2015 No site specific plan Gloucester Kimbrose Way No break date 24 March 2015 No site specific plan Grimsby Heritage House No break date 31 March 2012 No site specific plan Guildford The Gateway 14 August 2018 14 August 2023 No site specific plan Harrogate The Exchange 19 June 2011 19 June 2016 No site specific plan Hull Citadel House 8 January 2014 8 January 2019 No site specific plan Huntingdon Justinian House No break date 24 December 2014 No site specific plan Ipswich St Vincent House 24 March 2013 24 March 2018 No site specific plan Lancaster Rosemary House 28 September 2015 28 September 2020 Vacant-staff have moved into Preston Leamington Spa Rossmore House No break date 29 February 2012 Staff to be relocating to Warwickshire Justice Centre December 2010 681W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 682W

Location Property Break date Lease expiry date Plan

Leeds Jefferson House No break date 24 March 2015 No site specific plan Leicester Princess Court No break date 21 March 2026 No site specific plan Lincoln The Regatta Suites No break date 28 May 2019 No site specific plan Liverpool Magistrates court No break date 3 April 2006 No site specific plan Liverpool Royal Liver Building 1 January 2012 31 December 2013 No site specific plan London Marlowe House No break date 25 March 2014 Site occupied by Met Police London New Kings Beam House No break date 24 December 2011 Office to close in 2011 and staff relocate to other London offices London Rose Court 28 September 2013 28 September 2018 No site specific plan London The Cooperage No break date 23 June 2014 No site specific plan Luton Sceptre House No break date 23 June 2014 No site specific plan Maidstone Priory Gate No break date 24 December 2016 No site specific plan Manchester Sunlight House No break date 5 March 2012 No site specific plan Mansfield Phoenix House 24 March 2011 22 October 2016 No site specific plan Merthyr Tydfil Cambria House No break date 24 March 2015 No site specific plan Middlesbrough Building One 31 March 2012 31 March 2022 No site specific plan Middlesbrough Building One 31 March 2017 31 March 2022 No site specific plan Newcastle upon Tyne St Ann’s Quay No break date 3 June 2018 No site specific plan Newtown Powys Powys Afon House 1 April 2016 31 March 2019 No site specific plan Northampton Beaumont House No break date 1 October 2011 No site specific plan Norwich Carmelite House No break date 23 June 2018 No site specific plan Nottingham King Edward Court No break date 28-Apr-2013 No site specific plan Oldham Cromwell Court No break date 24 March 2015 No site specific plan Oxford Gemini One 14 July 2016 13 July 2021 No site specific plan Plymouth St Andrews Court 24 December 2013 24 December 2018 No site specific plan Portsmouth Crown House Owned Owned No site specific plan Preston Unicentre 24 April 2016 23 April 2021 No site specific plan Rochdale Newgate House No break date 31 March 2011 Plan to relocate to other CPS premises Sheffield Greenfield House Owned Owned No site specific plan Shrewsbury Lakeside Business Park No break date 19 April 2013 No site specific plan St Albans Queen’s House No break date 30 January 2023 No site specific plan Stafford Parker Court 16 November 2016 16 November 2021 No site specific plan Stoke on Trent Etruria Valley Office Village No break date 16 May 2016 No site specific plan Swansea Princess House No break date 28 September 2011 Office to close in 2011 and staff to relocate to other local offices Victoria Artillery Row No break date 23 June 2013 Wholly sublet to commercial tenant Wakefield South Parade No break date 28 September 2015 No site specific plan Warrington Bankside Chambers 31 August 2011 (part site) 24 December 2016 No site specific plan. Break exercised on part of site. Wigan Kingscroft Court No break date 24 December 2016 Wholly sublet Wigan Police Station 21 January 2015 20 January 2030 No site specific plan Wolverhampton St Georges House No break date 17 January 2011 Office to close in 2011 and staff relocate to other local offices Workington Prosper House No break date 12 June 2014 Vacant-staff moved into Carlisle Wrexham Bromfield House 25 March 2013 24 March 2018 No site specific plan York Athena House 17 February 2015 17 February 2020 No site specific plan York United House No break date 12 December 2013 No site specific plan

Mr Umunna: To ask the Attorney-General how many The detailed data requested for individual magistrates cases prosecuted by the Crown Prosecution Service courts and Crown courts can be obtained only at (CPS) in each (a) magistrates and (b) Crown court in disproportionate cost. However there is data available each local authority area were stopped or lost as a which show: (i) the total of prosecutions discontinued result of (i) discontinuance and (ii) attrition of CPS by the CPS; (ii) the totals of other unsuccessful outcomes; staff in each of the last three years. [24040] (iii) the total of all unsuccessful outcomes; and, (iv) the totals of successful outcomes for each CPS area in the last three years for both magistrates court cases and The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service Crown court cases. The data for prosecutions dropped (CPS) collects data about the cases it prosecutes, but its by the CPS includes cases that are discontinued, withdrawn data collection system is based on the number of defendants or where no evidence is offered. Other unsuccessful prosecuted rather than individual offences. outcomes will include all acquittals after trial. CPS data The CPS comprises 42 areas whose boundaries are does not identify whether the reason for dropping a largely based on those of the police forces of England case was due to attrition of CPS staff. Tables containing and Wales. These boundaries are not co-terminate with this data have been deposited in the Library of the either local authority boundaries or with those of individual House. magistrates courts or Crown courts. 683W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 684W

Crown Prosecution Service: Closures Table 1—CPS staff 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

Mr Umunna: To ask the Attorney-General which Hertfordshire 97 116 128 114 120 120 Crown Prosecution Service offices have closed in the Humberside 101 118 123 122 118 119 last 12 months. [24035] Kent 160 163 186 179 188 182 Lancashire 238 249 256 242 252 264 The Attorney-General: Between 1 October 2009 and Leicestershire 117 130 130 128 119 120 30 October 2010 the following CPS offices closed. Lincoln 64 79 78 82 79 70 1. Solar House, Stratford, London London 1334 1336 1455 1394 1364 1319 2. Ludgate Hill, City of London Merseyside 295 319 303 276 259 247 3. Kings House, Harrow, London Norfolk 93 100 100 99 95 90 4. The Old Barracks, Grantham North Wales 72 80 83 82 84 83 5. Crosstrend House, Lincoln North 72 76 77 83 85 82 Yorkshire 6. Tolworth Tower, Surbiton Northamptonshire 66 73 74 82 81 77 7. Atlantic House, Birkenhead, Merseyside Northumbria 254 259 272 268 274 266 8. Prosper House, Workington Nottinghamshire 165 163 172 157 182 184 9. Rosemary House, Lancaster South Wales 210 233 252 226 241 234 10. Prudential House, Blackpool South 180 192 192 183 195 195 Yorkshire Crown Prosecution Service: Personnel Staffordshire 138 139 149 156 152 144 Suffolk 74 76 76 75 70 70 Mr Umunna: To ask the Attorney-General how many Surrey686973778180 Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) staff there were in each local authority area in each year since 2005; and Sussex 131 152 157 162 165 167 Thames 193 217 221 228 246 247 how many cases were referred to the CPS in each local Valley authority area in each such year. [24038] Warwickshire 38 39 43 43 42 40 The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service West Mercia 110 140 144 149 147 148 West 515 530 531 530 515 501 (CPS) is divided into 42 geographical areas across England Midlands and Wales. The number of staff in each Area since 2005 West 309 322 330 322 317 324 is shown in table 1. Yorkshire The CPS does not keep data on the basis of local Wiltshire 50 56 58 65 66 58 authority boundaries, but on the basis of its area structure. Data is therefore only available for the 42 geographically Table 2—Pre-charge decisions based CPS areas. 2006 2007 2008 2009 20101 The number of cases referred to the CPS includes all ENGLAND and 577,286 564,200 538,055 485,409 402,193 cases charged by the police which the CPS prosecutes, WALES and the cases referred to the CPS by the Police for a Avon and 12,179 11,273 15,558 10,916 8,714 pre-charge decision. The breakdown between pre-charge Somerset decisions and cases charged by the police, in the last five Bedfordshire 5,985 5,733 6,147 5,615 4,441 years, are provided in tables 2 and 3 as follows. Cambridgeshire 7,446 6,194 6,563 5,746 5,652 Cheshire 9,573 10,147 9,473 8,527 6,658 Table 1—CPS staff Cleveland 6,392 6,498 6,927 6,045 5,085 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 Cumbria 6,642 5,950 5,528 5,319 3,425 ENGLAND 7148 7500 7820 7705 7700 7550 Derbyshire 11,970 12,181 11,364 9,126 7,977 and WALES Devon and 8,681 11,088 10,302 9,367 7,152 Avon and 173 191 198 183 188 177 Cornwall Somerset Dorset 7,825 6,137 5,981 4,631 3,935 Bedfordshire 63 68 63 71 74 76 Durham 7,144 7,776 7,409 6,927 4,957 Cambridgeshire 69 68 73 80 78 77 Dyfed Powys 3,875 3,304 2,603 2,427 2,022 Cheshire 109 105 108 115 115 112 Essex 13,990 15,847 14,028 12,336 10,707 Cleveland 107 112 116 110 104 99 Gloucestershire 5,097 5,662 5,661 5,189 3,136 Cumbria 78 77 82 79 80 79 Greater 35,713 33,146 28,817 27,742 26,746 Derbyshire 104 111 115 122 123 119 Manchester Devon and 121 136 134 125 122 121 Gwent 6,480 6,531 5,921 5,609 4,675 Cornwall Hampshire and 15,734 19,015 19,281 17,242 13,725 Dorset566469747778I.O.W Durham 79 76 77 84 92 93 Hertfordshire 8,061 8,053 6,098 5,460 5,291 Dyfed-Powys 66 68 65 64 61 62 Humberside 8,486 8,144 8,568 7,980 6,760 Essex 154 151 163 172 185 191 Kent 12,637 14,021 13,264 11,554 9,074 Gloucestershire 55 55 52 55 61 55 Lancashire 24,680 23,174 22,292 21,248 17,659 Greater 464 485 511 502 474 457 Leicestershire 10,061 9,992 8,118 8,047 6,152 Manchester Lincolnshire 5,597 3,974 4,266 3,703 2,861 Gwent 83 81 85 97 86 84 London 84,990 83,786 86,406 72,262 64,208 Hampshire 223 226 246 248 243 239 Merseyside 20,374 19,616 18,405 15,014 12,171 and I.O.W Norfolk 7,729 7,383 7,381 7,305 5,876 685W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 686W

Table 2—Pre-charge decisions Table 3—Police charged prosecutions 2006 2007 2008 2009 20101 2006 2007 2008 2009 20101

Northamptonshire 5,713 5,627 5,167 5,323 4,198 West Mercia 18,580 17,332 15,463 14,363 10,793 Northumbria 20,158 18,490 15,797 12,891 9,860 West Midlands 40,371 37,275 35,403 34,017 21,743 North Wales 9,114 7,894 7,806 7,762 5,977 West Yorkshire 37,552 32,437 30,947 28,595 25,749 North Yorkshire 7,700 7,514 7,483 6,941 4,883 Wiltshire 10,267 7,687 7,426 7,488 4,288 1 Nottinghamshire 12,811 13,316 10,275 11,792 9,744 January to October South Wales 16,582 14,631 15,487 15,694 12,500 South Yorkshire 14,264 13,668 13,136 11,607 8,776 Departmental Contracts Staffordshire 13,382 11,340 10,383 9,020 6,266 Suffolk 8,356 7,187 6,531 5,381 4,800 Ian Austin: To ask the Attorney-General what the Surrey 4,816 5,983 6,319 4,789 6,084 monetary value is of contracts the Law Officers’ Sussex 15,655 15,303 15,327 14,021 12,309 Departments have, awarded to each (a) management Thames Valley 15,518 16,296 14,736 13,469 11,579 consultancy and (b) IT company since 7 May 2010. Warwickshire 4,101 3,695 2,968 2,375 1,908 [16193] West Mercia 12,078 12,256 10,758 9,057 6,918 West Midlands 41,633 41,242 33,581 31,315 23,858 The Attorney-General: The information is as follows: West Yorkshire 23,933 20,839 21,454 23,675 20,433 Monetary value of contracts awarded by TSOL to Wiltshire 4,131 4,294 4,486 4,960 3,041 management consultancy companies from 7 May 2010 to 1 January to October 31 October 2010 Table 3—Police charged prosecutions TSOL have awarded no contracts to management 2006 2007 2008 2009 20101 consultancy companies since 7 May 2010. ENGLAND and 762,740 693,192 677,320 663,636 536,011 Monetary value of contracts awarded by TSOL to IT companies from 7 May WALES 2010 to 31 October 2010 Avon and 20,909 20,328 17,257 16,433 14,183 Company Value of contract (£) Somerset Bedfordshire 7,723 6,607 6,185 5,944 4,375 Specialist computer centres 10,800 Cambridgeshire 10,095 7,970 7,652 7,516 6,040 Insight 5,306 Cheshire 13,510 14,225 14,165 13,485 10,423 Kelway UK Ltd 149,538 Cleveland 8,846 8,784 9,478 9,533 7,763 Total 165,644 Cumbria 10,174 9,092 8,705 7,286 5,713

Derbyshire 10,401 9,962 8,512 7,425 5,846 Monetary value of contracts awarded by the SFO to management consultancy Devon and 18,753 16,544 16,274 15,599 12,629 companies from 7 May 2010 to 31 October 2010 Cornwall Company Value of contracts (£) Dorset 9,450 7,510 6,687 6,551 5,005 Durham 7,260 6,952 6,152 5,321 4,480 Corven Consulting Ltd 1173,792 Dyfed Powys 8,829 7,808 7,922 7,661 6,193 PA Consulting 2851,044 Essex 18,339 17,508 18,126 18,863 14,832 Skills for Justice 6,483 Gloucestershire 5,604 4,842 5,083 4,747 3,334 Total 1,031,319 Greater 51,020 42,073 42,195 36,121 28,471 1 Includes £96,680 accrued Manchester 2 Includes £213,660 accrued Gwent 11,097 10,077 7,384 6,834 4,984 Monetary value of contracts awarded by the SFO to IT companies from 7 May Hampshire and 19,897 20,372 20,503 20,999 16,538 2010 to 31 October 2010 I.O.W Company Value of contracts (£) Hertfordshire 14,337 12,536 12,547 13,467 10,512 Humberside 10,527 10,838 11,089 10,791 8,885 COA Solutions Ltd 1,345 Kent 19,965 18,887 17,191 16,639 13,019 2E2 UK Ltd 2,625 Lancashire 25,445 23,470 22,111 23,397 17,292 Sanderson Forensics Ltd 16,263 Leicestershire 13,211 10,692 10,624 9,962 7,907 Specialist Computer Centres plc 58,925 Lincolnshire 11,927 10,591 10,029 9,534 6,345 Sungard Vivista 3,142,000 London 99,150 87,736 98,058 108,937 102,861 Total 3,221,158 Merseyside 16,347 20,006 22,787 24,377 18,885 Norfolk 10,553 10,212 9,383 8,553 7,424 Monetary value of contracts awarded by the NFA to management consultancy Northamptonshire 8,856 8,789 7,748 7,239 5,341 companies from 7 May 2010 to 31 October 2010 Northumbria 30,626 30,659 25,119 23,318 19,275 Company Value of contracts (£)

North Wales 11,537 9,519 8,918 9,206 7,817 Magic Beans Consultancy Ltd 400 North Yorkshire 8,517 7,734 8,200 7,203 5,389 Nottinghamshire 14,729 13,928 16,508 11,607 11,086 Monetary value of contracts awarded by the NFA to IT companies from 7 May South Wales 24,172 19,153 18,894 18,844 14,096 2010 to 31 October 2010 South Yorkshire 18,695 17,724 17,991 16,880 13,819 Company Value of contracts (£) Staffordshire 16,180 14,826 13,446 10,986 9,327 Suffolk 8,130 7,028 8,538 10,084 6,103 BrightWave Ltd 29,493 Surrey 7,039 8,208 8,002 7,848 5,850 Sussex 15,947 13,579 11,904 12,069 9,496 The CPS, AGO and HMCPSI have not awarded any Thames Valley 31,998 26,577 22,119 22,527 17,166 contracts to management consultancy or IT companies Warwickshire 6,175 5,115 4,595 5,387 4,734 since 7 May 2010. 687W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 688W

Newspaper Press: Telephone Tapping Animal Products: EU Law

Mr Watson: To ask the Attorney-General whether Caroline Nokes: To ask the Secretary of State for the Director of Public Prosecutions was informed that Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment the Metropolitan Police Service held transcribed she has made of the potential market for a facility to voicemail messages as part of its telephone hacking store animal products that do not comply with EU and blagging investigation; and if he will make a import requirements. [23280] statement. [23795]

The Attorney-General: In 2006 two people were Mr Paice: The UK has no approved stores or warehouses prosecuted for offences of conspiracy to intercept for the storage of animal products that do not meet the communications and related offences. The DPP at the EU import conditions. time, Sir Ken McDonald QC, now Lord MacDonald of The importation into the EU of animal products River Glavern, and the reviewing lawyer are no longer could pose a risk to animal and public health unless it is in post, and no information is contained in the prosecution properly controlled. Each consignment of animal products file on this specific issue. It is not therefore possible to must be accompanied by appropriate documentation ascertain whether the DPP was informed that the and must enter the EU through a Border Inspection Metropolitan Police Service held transcribed voicemail Post (BIP), where checks are carried out to ensure that messages as part of its investigation into telephone import conditions have been met. hacking. While Council Directive 97/78 (the Veterinary Checks Directive), provides that non-conforming animal products Prosecutions: Convictions may be stored within the EU in specially approved warehouses, subject to stringent controls, provided their Mr Umunna: To ask the Attorney-General what ultimate destination is outside the EU. The Directive proportion of prosecutions in each local authority area also provides that member states can refuse to allow in each of the last 12 months resulted in a conviction. storage of such goods in their territory on the grounds [24170] that they pose an animal or public health risk. The UK therefore deems these products to be a risk. The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service Regulation 47 of the Products of Animal Origin (Third (CPS) collects data on prosecutions conducted by them. Country Imports) (England) Regulations 2006 prohibits Other Government Departments and local authorities imports of non-conforming products into a warehouse also conduct prosecutions, which are not captured in in free zones, a free warehouse or a customs warehouse the data retained by the CPS. CPS data relate to defendants in England. and not to individual offences, and are recorded on the basis of the 42 geographically separate CPS Areas, not local authority areas. Beak Trimming Tables showing the percentage of convictions for each CPS Area for each of the last twelve months in the period 2009-10, together with the total successful and Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for unsuccessful outcomes for each CPS Area, for each Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the month in that year, have been deposited in the Library membership of the Beak Trimming Action Group will of the House. be once it has been reconvened. [24528]

Mr Paice: The Beak Trimming Action Group will consist of poultry industry representatives, poultry breeders, ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS welfare groups, representatives from scientific and veterinary professions, researchers and DEFRA officials. Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what timetable written ministerial statement of 8 November 2010, she has set for the merger of Animal Health and the Official Report, columns 2-4WS, on beak trimming Veterinary Laboratories Agency; and if she will make a (laying hens), who will be responsible for the cost of statement. [23725] industry study tours to European countries where beak trimming is not carried out. [24525] Mr Paice: The Secretary of State announced on 29 June that Animal Health and the Veterinary Laboratories Mr Paice: In order to progress towards a ban on beak Agency were going to be merged. We are aiming to trimming, I have asked the industry to carry out its own formally merge these bodies on 1 April 2011. The study tours to European countries; for example Austria, merger will bring together services, expertise and where beak trimming is not carried out and to consider scientific capability on animal health. In resource experiences from their industry colleagues. Results of constrained times it will improve our resilience in delivering these tours will be fed back to the Beak Trimming important services, including our animal disease emergency Action Group to consider, when formulating an action response capability and science requirements for animal plan which will work toward a future ban on this health. procedure. 689W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 690W

Circuses: Animal Welfare which recommended making changes to the registration system to remove obstacles to development. I hope to Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for make an announcement later this year. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she expects to make an announcement on the outcome of the Alan Keen: To ask the Secretary of State for consultation on the use of wild animals in travelling Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many circuses. [23888] applications for the registration of town and village greens were rejected by commons registration Mr Paice: An announcement will be made early in authorities in each of the last 10 years. [24280] the new year. Richard Benyon: The figures in the following table are Common Land estimates derived from surveys of commons registration authorities in England, and scaled-up accordingly. The data include applications rejected under both section 15(1) Alan Keen: To ask the Secretary of State for of the Commons Act 2006, and section 13(b) of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many Commons Registration Act 1965. There are no national recommendations she received for the registration of data available for 2000-02. new town and village greens in each of the last 10 years; how many new town and village greens were Number of applications rejected registered in each such year; and what size the town 1 and village greens were in each case. [24278] 2009 79 2008 52 Richard Benyon: Commons registration authorities 2007 35 (county councils in two-tier local authority areas) are 2006 16 responsible for processing and determining applications 2005 22 to register land as a town or village green under section 2004 29 15(1) of the Commons Act 2006. 2003 30 The figures in the following table are estimates derived 1 To end of September. from surveys of commons registration authorities in England, and scaled-up accordingly. The data include Dangerous Dogs registrations made under section 13(b) of the Commons Registration Act 1965 (the predecessor to section 15(1) Jane Ellison: To ask the Secretary of State for of the 2006 Act), but do not include registrations made Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent on a voluntary application by the owner under section 15(8) discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for of the 2006 Act. There are no national data available for the Home Department on her Department’s 2000-02. consultation on dangerous dogs. [23004] Greens registered Number Mr Paice: Discussions between officials at DEFRA and the Home Office about the link between antisocial 2009 (to end of September) 17 behaviour and dangerous dogs are ongoing. An 2008 26 announcement about the publication of the summary 2007 18 of responses to the consultation on dangerous dogs and 2006 8 a way forward will be made soon. 2005 30 2004 9 Departmental Information Officers 2003 10

No data are collected centrally on the size of registered Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for greens. However, a sample study of 25 greens registered Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many press between 2001 and 2009 found that the median size was officers are employed by (a) her Department, (b) the 0.3 hectares. Environment Agency, (c) Natural England and (d) each other non-departmental public body sponsored Alan Keen: To ask the Secretary of State for by her Department; and if she will make a statement. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent [23727] representations her Department has received on legislation relating to the registration of new town and Richard Benyon: The information requested is set out village greens; whether she plans to review this as follows. legislation; and if she will make a statement. [24279] (a) DEFRA—20 press officers Desk Number of press officers Richard Benyon: A number of representations have been received recently from Members of Parliament, Head of News 1 local authorities, and others about the registration of Food, Farming and Animal 6 land as town or village greens. Health and Welfare Natural Environment, Rural 6 The Government are considering whether change to Affairs, Water and Waste the greens registration system is required as part of Climate, Flooding and Science 4.5 their commitment to create a new designation to protect Strategic Media Planning 2.5 green areas, and as a response to the Penfold Review, 691W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 692W

(b) The Environment Agency—26.5 press officers Livestock: Overseas Trade Region Number of press officers

Anglian 2 Neil Parish: To ask the Secretary of State for Midlands 3 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many live Wales 2.5 (a) horses, (b) asses, (c) mules and (d) hinnies have North East 2 been (i) exported from and (ii) imported into the UK North West 2 from (A) EU member states and (B) third countries in South West 1 each of the last two years; and for what purposes these Southern 3 animals were exported and imported in each case. Thames 4 [23318] Head office 8

(c) Natural England Mr Paice: Details of the total number of live horses, Number of press officers asses, mules and hinnies exported from Great Britain and imported into the UK from EU member states and Natural England 5 third countries for 2008 and 2009 are provided in the (d) Other non-departmental public bodies sponsored by DEFRA tables, as recorded in the Trade Control and Expert Number of press officers System (TRACES) and the Certification of Exports, Notification of Trade and Assessment of Underlying Marine Management Organisation 1 Risk (CENTAUR) databases. CEFAS 1— Registered horses need not be recorded in TRACES Forestry Commission 3 as they can move freely between EU member states British Waterways 2 accompanied by a health attestation document, which Gangmaster’s Licensing Authority 1 is valid for 10 days, and a valid horse passport. Rural Payments Agency 1— Food and Environment Research 1 It is not possible to split these figures into individual Agency categories of horses, asses, mules and hinnies nor ascertain 1 Equivalent of 0.5 people’s jobs for what purposes these animals were exported and imported as this data is not recorded. Departmental Lobbying Total number of live horses, asses, mules and hinnies exported from Great Britain 2008-09 Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008 2009 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) how much her Department’s agencies and non-departmental EU 6,914 6,965 public bodies spent from the public purse on Non-EU 3,233 2,673 influencing public policy through (a) employing Total 10,147 9,638 external (i) public affairs companies, (ii) strategic Source: consultancies and (iii) corporate communications Certification of Exports, Notification of Trade and Assessment of Underlying Risk (CENTAUR) database firms, (b) external marketing and (c) other activities in each of the last 10 years; [23755] Total number of live horses, asses, mules and hinnies imported into the UK (2) which of her Department’s non-departmental 2008-09 public bodies have undertaken activities to influence 2008 2009 public policy for which they engaged (a) public affairs EU 3,858 3,147 and (b) public relations consultants in each year since Non-EU 1,529 1,341 1997; and at what monetary cost in each such year. Total 5,387 4,488 [23792] Source: European Commission’s Trade Control and Expert System (TRACES) database Richard Benyon: None of my Department’s agencies or non-departmental public bodies have spent public Ofwat money on these activities. Environment Agency: Watercourses Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what Karl McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for mechanism her Department has to assess the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she is impartiality of Ofwat; and what the outcome was of taking to ensure that the Environment Agency has the most recent assessment made by Ministers; [23360] adequate resources to maintain all its watercourses. (2) if she will assess the merits of merging Ofwat [24529] with (a) Ofgem and (b) the Consumer Council for Water; [23361] Richard Benyon: The Environment Agency is responsible for maintenance of watercourses designated as ‘main (3) what recent assessment she has made of the rivers’. Local authorities will continue to be funded by performance of Ofwat against its objectives. [23372] Formula Grant for their responsibilities for ordinary watercourses. Richard Benyon: On 26 August the Secretary of State Environment Agency resources to carry out routine announced the launch of a review of Ofwat, with an maintenance will be protected as far as possible. They accompanying call for evidence that closed on 29 October. will continue to be targeted, on a risk based approach, The review aims to ensure Ofwat is fit for future towards the parts of the country where the consequences challenges. It is examining how the regulator works, of flooding would be highest. whether it offers good value for money and if it is 693W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 694W delivering what Government and customers expect. The Wild Horses review is also looking at the effectiveness of the Consumer Council for Water and its relationship with Ofwat and Pat Glass: To ask the Secretary of State for the water companies. The terms of reference for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will bring Ofwat review can be found on DEFRA’s website. forward proposals to reduce the incidence of wild The review team is working closely, where appropriate, horses damaging private property. [22600] with the Department for Energy and Climate Change’s Mr Paice: I do not intend to bring forward proposals review of Ofgem, which is also under way. to reduce the incidence of ‘wild horses’ damaging private The Ofwat review is being run in parallel with the property. Depending upon the circumstances and nature Water White Paper which is due for publication in June of the damage caused, the owners of those free roaming next year. The review will feed into the White Paper’s horses that cause damage may be liable under the development. Animals Act 1971. If any horses causing damage are not owned, they may be controlled in a legal and Redundancy humane manner. Wildlife: Internet Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for redundancies she expects there to be in each pay grade Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress in her Department in each of the next five years; and has been made on reducing the level of wildlife trade what estimate she has made of the cost of such on the internet since the last meeting of the Conference redundancies to her Department in each year. [24526] of Parties to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species. [24066] Richard Benyon: DEFRA will make the reduction in headcount through natural wastage and voluntary Richard Benyon: Further to the response I gave the departures wherever possible, with compulsory redundancies hon. Member on 12 July 2010, Official Report, columns as a last resort. Until we know the numbers who take up 457-58W,DEFRA is in the final stages of commissioning voluntary departure, it will not be possible to estimate a project to establish a baseline of the scope and volume the number of compulsory redundancies. However, overall, of wildlife trade via the internet. This project will also we expect DEFRA and its arm’s length bodies to have develop a search methodology to monitor illegal activity between 5,000 and 8,000 fewer jobs by 2015. which will be shared with enforcement agencies worldwide. Following receipt of the results of that project, DEFRA will consider how best to tackle the use of the internet Water Supply: Industry for illegal wildlife sales, including the possible issuance of a code of conduct for internet operators. Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will assess the merits of measures to encourage water-intensive WOMEN AND EQUALITIES industries to locate in areas less prone to water shortages. [23362] Commonwealth Women’s Affairs Ministerial Conference Richard Benyon: Business decisions on the best place to locate will take into account many factors, including Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for Women and the availability of adequate water supplies. Equalities how much the Government Equalities Office spent on attendance at the Commonwealth Women’s A water-intensive business will usually want to obtain Affairs Ministerial conference in June 2010; and how a licence to abstract water from the environment as this many civil servants attended. [22060] is cheaper than paying for water supplied by water companies. Business can make use of the published Lynne Featherstone: The UK sent one senior civil information on water availability, via the Environment servant to this conference, the head of Gender Equality Agency’s catchment abstraction management strategies. Policy, who is based in the Government Equalities These identify the availability of water resources for Office. new abstractions, and areas where water is unlikely to The cost including travel and subsistence of attending be available. the meeting was £3,195. In addition, there are mechanisms in place to encourage efficient use of water by businesses, including water-intensive Departmental Travel industries. The water technology list identifies products, across a range of technologies, that are at the leading Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for Women and edge of efficient water consumption. These technologies Equalities how much the Government Equalities Office (a) (b) (c) benefit from enhanced capital allowances. Investments spent on foreign travel, hotels, taxi fares (d) in such products give long-term financial benefits by and rail travel in each year since it was established. reducing the amount of water that needs to be abstracted [22058] from the environment or obtained from the public Lynne Featherstone: The Government Equalities Office water supply. was established on 12 October 2007. The total expenditure The Water White Paper, which we intend to publish on all travel and subsistence is detailed in the following in June next year, will address the question of the table. Breaking down the expenditure into the categories management of water resources, both now and in the requested can be provided only at disproportionate future. cost. 695W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 696W

Alloy Wheels Travel and subsistence Total expenditure (£) 2007-081 18,880 Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 79,891 Transport what data his Department collects on road 2009-10 129,542 accidents where defective alloy wheels were a 2010-112 43,874 contributing factor to the cause of that accident; and if 1 From 12 October 2010 he will make a statement. [23828] 2 As at 31 October 2010 Mike Penning: The Department for Transport does Equal Pay not collect any data on whether defective alloy wheels were a contributing factor to the cause of a road Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for Women and accident. Equalities what steps she is taking to reduce the gender pay gap. [24207] The Department holds several datasets on road accidents. In addition to the police road casualty data (STATS19) Lynne Featherstone: The Government are committed there are several in depth studies—the ‘On the Spot’ to tackling the barriers that women face in the workplace study (OTS), the Co-operative Crash Injury Study (CCIS) and are taking a range of measures including making and the Heavy Vehicle Crash Injury Study (HVCIS). pay secrecy clauses unenforceable, extending the right None of these datasets holds any information on whether to request flexible working to all employees, consulting defective alloy wheels contributed to an accident. on a new system of parental leave, and promoting gender equality on company boards including asking Bus Services Lord Davies to fully investigate the issue. Government Equalities Office: Finance Ben Gummer: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will take steps to assist competing bus Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for Women and companies to reach cooperative agreements to provide Equalities what the administrative budget for the regular services on (a) Wherstead Road in Ipswich Government Equalities Office will be in each of the constituency and (b) other routes with an identified next five years. [24203] need. [24510]

Lynne Featherstone: The recent spending review Norman Baker: The regulatory framework for buses settlement, covering the next four years, allocated an permits co-operative agreements between bus operators administration budget to the Government Equalities as long as certain conditions are met. We have seen Office as follows: good results in places where local authorities and operators work effectively in partnership to improve bus services— £ million such as in Brighton, York and Cambridge. 2011-12 45.9 While it is the role of Government to set this framework 2012-13 41.9 and encourage more of this type of activity for the 2013-14 34.1 benefit of bus passengers in Ipswich and elsewhere it is 2014-15 25.2 up to local authorities and communities to make it happen. This might be a local authority making a The budget for 2015-16 will be fixed by the next statutory quality bus partnership scheme, as in Nottingham, spending review. or instead endorsing a qualifying agreement between The budget for the Government Equalities Office two operators, as in Oxford. covers the costs of its non-departmental public body, Ultimately, however, it is for commercial operators to the Equality and Human Rights Commission. decide whether to run services such as the route 66 bus in Ipswich, and at what frequency. If a service is not considered commercially viable, a local authority can TRANSPORT decide it wishes to tender for and support a replacement service, or discuss with the local community alternative A69 forms of transport provision. John Stevenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Bus Services: Finance Transport if he will take steps to upgrade the remaining part of the A69 between Carlisle and Newcastle upon Tyne to a dual carriageway. [19629] Mr Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what research his Department has (a) commissioned Mike Penning [holding answer 28 October 2010]: The and (b) evaluated on the likely effects on (i) bus fares Secretary of State for Transport announced on 26 October and (ii) service levels of the reduction in Bus Service 2010, Official Report, columns 177-79W,the Department’s Operators Grant proposed in the Spending Review. plans for funding road improvement schemes for the [22266] spending review period, to the end of 2014-15. The Department for Transport will also take forward Norman Baker: The Department for Transport has work on a number of schemes already under consideration not commissioned or evaluated any specific research on for the next spending review period. At present, the the likely effects on bus fares and service levels of the Department is not developing proposals for future schemes reduction in Bus Service Operating Grant proposed in on this section of the A69. the spending review. 697W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 698W

With regard to the potential impacts of a reduction Mike Penning: The Department for Transport intends in Bus Service Operators Grant on fares and bus services to begin the necessary consultation on proposals for the I refer the hon. Member to the answer of 15 November new charging regime at the Dartford Crossing around 2010, Official Report, column 570W. the end of 2010. Increasing the charges as proposed allows future Bus Services: Information Services investment in improvements at the Crossing, including the implementation of free-flow charging technology, Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for and funding of proposals for a new, additional lower Transport whether he plans to amend the Public Thames crossing in the longer term. Service Vehicle Accessibility Regulations 2000 to require on-board audio and visual passenger Departmental Conditions of Employment information systems on buses. [24156] Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Norman Baker: Research has been commissioned to Transport how many civil servants in his Department assess the costs and benefits of installing audio visual have used the flexible benefits project to carry out cost systems on buses. The research project has brought comparison of products to date. [23878] together a cross section of stakeholders, including Guide Dogs, Royal National Institute of Blind People and Norman Baker: The Department for Transport’s ‘Your Royal National Institute for Deaf People. We will take Reward’ portal enables staff to view and purchase a account of the results of this work in considering any range of products offered with retailer discounts. Since changes to the Public Service Vehicle Accessibility the scheme came into operation in November 2009, Regulations 2000 (PSVAR). The project is due to report 88,151 viewings have been recorded to date. There is no shortly. information about whether the purpose was to carry out cost comparisons or to view and purchase products. Cycling Departmental Pay Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assessment he has made of changes in Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the level of cycling in each cycling city and town in the Transport what allowances and payments in addition latest period for which figures are available; and if he to salary were available to officials in his Department and its non-departmental public bodies in each year will make a statement. [23415] since 1997; and what the monetary value was of Norman Baker: In 2005 the Department for Transport payments and allowances of each type in each such funded six cycling towns and in 2008 this funding was year. [18720] extended to include a further 11 cycling towns and one city until March 2011. Their remit was to increase Norman Baker: Within the Department for Transport, significantly their cycling levels. its seven executive agencies and its non-departmental public bodies there are a number of different allowances Preliminary evaluation of the first six cycling and payments available to employees who meet the demonstration towns (CDTs) provided evidence of early relevant criteria. changes in the levels of cycling and physical activity in CDTs across a range of indicators, including a one However, I regret that a breakdown of these allowances percentage point increase in the estimated proportion and payments, or their monetary values, can be provided of people cycling for 30 minutes at least three times a only at disproportionate cost. week, and a 27% increase in levels of cycling as measured Departmental Policy y automatic cycle counts. Taken together, these findings (published by Cycling England in 2009) strongly suggest Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for that cycling levels were observably increasing in the Transport what departmental policy reviews his CDTs three years after the initiative began, with some Department has undertaken since 6 May 2010; on what evidence indicating that similar increases were not occurring date each such review (a) was announced and (b) is in comparable areas. expected to publish its findings; what estimate he has Monitoring of cycling levels in the CDTs is ongoing made of the cost of each such review; who has been until at least 2011, in order to capture data on the appointed to lead each such review; to what longer-term trends in these towns. remuneration each review leader is entitled; how many Independent evaluation and monitoring of the 12 new (i) full-time equivalent civil servants and (ii) seconded CCTs (Cycling City and Towns) is scheduled to run staff are working on each such review; from which until 2012, with final results (including the results of a organisations such staff have been seconded; and how large-scale pre-and post intervention household survey) much on average such seconded staff will be paid for available in 2012-13. Analysis of the monitoring data their work on the review. [21875] will not be conducted until a suitable time series is Norman Baker: I refer the hon. Member to my answer available, to enable intervention effects to be distinguished of 6 July 2010, Official Report, column 140W. from seasonal and other natural fluctuations in the data. Departmental Redundancy Dartford-Thurrock Crossing: Tolls Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many staff of (a) his Department and Transport when he plans to bring forward proposals to (b) its agencies have been offered enhanced early increase charges at the Dartford-Thurrock crossing; retirement packages in each of the last three years. and if he will make a statement. [22276] [22030] 699W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 700W

Norman Baker: The number of staff offered enhanced Norman Baker: I refer the hon. Member to my answer early retirement packages in (a) the Department for of 2 November 2010, Official Report, column 703W. Transport and (b) its agencies in each of the last three years is set out in the following tables: (a) Department for Transport Institute for Fiscal Studies Number Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008 7 Transport how much his Department has spent on 2009 1 services provided by the Institute for Fiscal Studies in 2010 114 each year since its creation. [23400]

(b) Agencies Norman Baker: The Department for Transport was 2008 2009 2010 formed in May 2002 and information is provided from that date or the date an agency was formed, if later. Government Car 1110 and Despatch The central Department has spent the following on Agency services provided by the Institute for Fiscal Studies: Driving Standards 11 4 2 Agency £ Driver Vehicle and 33 49 0 Licensing Agency 2003-04 1,275 Highways Agency 24 2 6 2004-05 2,743 Maritime and 29 4 3 2006-07 200 Coastguard Agency 2009-10 575 Vehicle Certification 000 Agency The central Department has no spend on services Vehicle and 7990provided by the Institute for Fiscal Studies in financial Operator Service years other than those listed above. Agency Total for agencies 105 159 21 None of the seven Executive Agencies of the Department has any spend on services provided by the Institute for Fiscal Studies. Departmental Work Experience

Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for M18: Speed Limits Transport how many interns his Department has engaged in the last 12 months; and how many were (a) Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for unpaid, (b) remunerated with expenses only and (c) Transport for what reasons a 50 mph temporary speed paid a salary. [17210] limit was in force on the M18 motorway on 1 November 2010; what guidance he provides to the Norman Baker: In the last 12 months the Department Highways Agency on the imposition of temporary for Transport has engaged 16 interns. They were all paid speed limits when work is not being carried out; and if a salary above the minimum wage while on their internship. he will make a statement. [24199]

Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee Mike Penning: Work to replace the central reserve safety barrier is taking place in stages on the M18 between Junctions 2 and to the north of Junction 4. Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for This is the first in a series of four schemes being Transport what the cost to the public purse was of undertaken between September 2010 and the end of running the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory March 2011. Committee in each of the last three years. [24455] In order to undertake the work safely and with the minimum of disruption to the road user the hard shoulder Norman Baker: The total cost of Disabled Persons is being used to maintain the full compliment of running Transport Advisory Committee, including staff costs, lanes throughout the day. In order to do this a temporary research costs, members’ remuneration and expenses 50mph speed restriction is required. This restriction was as follows: remains in place on each stage until all the work has been completed and the hard shoulder reinstated. £ On 1 November works to replace the central reserve 2007-08 294,368 barrier had been completed. The hard shoulder, however, 2008-09 375,119 was coned off because works to reinstate the verge 2009-10 486,795 safety barriers and inspection chambers were taking place. Works were also being undertaken in the northbound verge to repair drains and install new gullies. Additionally, Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for to the north of Junction 3 works were taking place to Transport what estimate he has made of the potential install both a temporary closed circuit television system saving to the public purse as a result of the abolition of in the north and southbound verges as well as speed the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee. camera cabling in the southbound verge, for the next [24458] stage of barrier works. 701W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 702W

On the evening of 1 November night time works to Learning and development support for managers and staff, reinstate road markings, which involved a lane closure, including access to Workplace Option provision which provides were suspended to allow a wide load to pass safely confidential employee help and advice through the works area. Development of a common approach to attendance management across the Department and its agencies, which includes the National advice on setting temporary speed limits is management of sick absence. given in Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 8 which is developed by the Highways Agency on behalf of Department for Motor Vehicles: Testing Transport. This identifies appropriate speed limits based on the relative risk to road users. This risk is normally Mrs Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for the same whether road workers are present or not. The Transport (1) whether he has made an assessment of Highways Agency produced additional advice in July 2007 the evidence compiled for his Department’s 2008 MOT (Chief Highways Engineer Memo 203/07) on how to Scheme Review since his appointment; and if he will apply temporary speed limits at road works using the make a statement; [24538] risk based approach in Chapter 8. (2) what plans he has for the future of the MOT Scheme; and if he will make a statement. [24539] Mental Health Mike Penning: Although I am aware of the 2008 Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for evidence, I intend to review the MOT test scheme using Transport what assessment he has made of the latest information available. However, the Department recommendations relevant to his Department’s policy for Transport has no specific proposals at this stage and responsibilities contained in the Foresight report on no preconceptions about the outcome. The aim of the Mental Capacity and Well-Being by the Government review will be to strike the right balance between vehicle Office for Science; if he will ensure that his Department safety and the burden imposed on motorists by MOT takes steps to promote well-being; if he will ensure that test requirements. his Department’s policy development process takes I expect to make an announcement about the timing account of psychological research into subjective and scope of the review in due course and there will be well-being; and if he will make a statement. [22754] an opportunity for anyone with an interest to contribute to the debate. Norman Baker [holding answer 8 November 2010]: Parking: Disability The Department for Transport will consider the recommendations of the Foresight report on Mental Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Capacity and Well-Being, and what this means Transport if he will bring forward legislative proposals for the organisation. for the regulation and enforcement of the use of Our vision is for a transport system that is an engine on-street and off-street disabled parking bays in for economic growth but one that is also greener and England and Wales. [24099] safer and improves quality of life in our communities. Our obligations under the Equality Act 2010 require us Norman Baker: Local authorities already have powers to consider the needs of eight vulnerable groups (age, to enforce on-street disabled person’s parking bays in disability, gender reassignment, marriage and civil England and Wales. Under the Road Traffic Regulation partnership, race, religion or belief, sex, sexual orientation). Act 1984 they may designate by order an on-street The Department for Transport is committed to using parking place reserved for a disabled badge holder. If a the best available evidence when developing policy. In disabled person’s parking bay has been designated, it considering the mental health and well-being of our would be an offence for non-disabled people to use the staff, we acknowledge and support the need for the space. These bays can be enforced with penalty charge public sector to lead by example. We welcome the notices or fixed penalty notices. In addition, if prosecuted, availability of centrally provided resources and practical an offender faces a fine of up to £1,000. If the local tools for managers and staff on managing mental health authority chooses not to designate a bay, it remains and reasonable adjustments. ‘advisory’ and cannot be enforced. The Department for transport recognises the benefits The Blue Badge (Disabled Parking) scheme only applies of investing in employee health and well-being as a on-street. Enforcement of off-street disabled persons’ means to reduce both short and long term sick absence parking bays is a matter for the individual owner or levels, prevent ill health in the workplace, and promote operator concerned. In the case of local authority off-street healthier lifestyles. car parks, traffic regulation orders made under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 are used to enforce Work is already taking place across the Department the bays. In private off-street car parks, the charges and and its seven agencies to proactively respond to local conditions of use are essentially a contractual matter needs by promoting health and well-being. Examples of between the owner and the motorist. initiatives already in place include: The Government have no plans to introduce further Well-being strategies regulation. Health and well-being programmes and targeted training on stress awareness and mental health in the workplace Railways: Construction Physical health screening packages which may help to reduce the risk of severe ill health in the longer term, and early diagnosis Mr Leech: To ask the Secretary of State for of potential health problems Transport what his plans are for the future of High Access to dental and medical health insurance Speed Rail 2; whether his Department’s public 703W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 704W consultation will assess (a) the route and (b) Mr Philip Hammond: All pressures on Departments’ assistance for those whose properties are negatively budgets were taken into account as part of the spending affected; and if he will make a statement. [24263] review and settlements were allocated accordingly. The full costs of redundancies will be met from within the Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 15 November Department for Transport’s spending review resource 2010]: The coalition Government support a truly national DEL settlement. high speed rail network. The Government favour an Determining optimal workforce reforms in order to initial line from London to the west midlands, followed live within the Department for Transport’s spending thereafter by lines from the west midlands to Leeds and review resource DEL settlement will be an ongoing Manchester. The forthcoming consultation will cover process. Detailed decisions regarding the number of the Government’s strategy for high speed rail—including redundancies that may be required have yet to be finalised. the proposed ″Y″-shaped network—and the route for the initial line. Roads: Accidents The Government have already consulted on and Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for introduced the Exceptional Hardship Scheme to assist Transport if he will review the application of severely affected property owners who have an urgent legislation relating to cycle road deaths. [24074] need to sell their property. In respect of London to the west midlands I intend to consult on and introduce Mike Penning: There is a large amount of legislation further arrangements to help people whose property in the Traffic Acts which could be used in prosecution would not be covered by the statutory blight regime, but proceedings. Additionally the rules in The Highway may nevertheless suffer a significant diminution in value Code can also be used in court proceedings. as a result of proximity of any new line. I also recognise that appropriate assistance will be needed when potential The investigation of road traffic collisions and the routes for the Leeds and Manchester sections are enforcement of road traffic law is an operational matter announced, and I will put arrangements for such assistance for individual chief officers of police. The police take in place at that point. very seriously all the issues arising from road traffic collisions, especially those where a life has been lost. The National Policing Improvement Agency has issued, Railways: Timetables on behalf of the Association of Chief Police Officers, a Road Death Investigation Manual to assist efficient and Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for professional investigations. Transport what guidance his Department issues to train operating companies on their legal obligations in Roads: Wales respect of the provision of timetable information to the public; and what plans he has to review those Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for obligations to take account of technological Transport whether his Department has plans for a link developments. [24193] road between the M40 and the Heads of the Valleys Road. [24516] Mrs Villiers [holding answer 15 November 2010]: The Mike Penning: I understand the hon. Member’s question obligation on train operators to provide timetable relates to whether there are any plans for a link road information to the public is contractual rather than between the M4 and the Heads of the Valleys Road. statutory and is contained in train operating companies’ franchise agreements with the Department for Transport. Road improvement schemes in Wales are a matter for the devolved Administration. Nothing within their franchise agreements prevents train operators from implementing technological Speed Limits: Cameras developments to disseminate and publicise their timetables more widely and I would encourage them to do so. Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assessment his Department has made Redundancy of the (a) accuracy and (b) effectiveness of the ASSET new generation speed cameras; whether he has plans to introduce such cameras on roads; and if he Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for will make a statement. [24189] Transport (1) how much funding to meet staff redundancy costs was identified in his Department’s Mike Penning: Assessment of all enforcement equipment settlement letter in respect of the comprehensive is subject to Home Office (HO) type approval, which spending review; [21550] may be granted after rigorous testing by the Home (2) what estimate he has made of the number of Office Scientific Development Branch (HOSDB). HO redundancies arising from the spending reductions has confirmed that no application has been received by proposed in the comprehensive spending review in HOSDB for type approval for the ASSET enforcement respect of (a) his Department, (b) its non- camera. departmental public bodies and (c) other public bodies The coalition has made clear that it is not for central which are dependent on his Department for funding; Government to dictate how local authorities address [21551] their priorities and issues. Should this equipment gain (3) what estimate he has made of the costs to his type approval in the future, it will be for local authorities Department of staff redundancy in each of the next and police forces to decide if this equipment is appropriate four years. [21552] for their needs. 705W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 706W

WORK AND PENSIONS staff are working on each such review; from which Asbestos organisations such staff have been seconded; and how much on average such seconded staff will be paid for their work on the review. [21873] John Cryer: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the Health and Safety Executive Chris Grayling: The following information details the Hidden Killer campaign in raising awareness among major reviews announced by this Department since construction workers about the risk of being exposed 6 May. The Department, however, is a large customer to asbestos. [23238] facing delivery organisation with over 100,000 staff spread across a wide range of geographical locations. It Chris Grayling: Asbestos is Britain’s biggest industrial is not possible, other than at disproportionate cost, to killer. It is estimated there are around 4,000 asbestos-related identify all the reviews which the Department may have deaths each year: undertaken into any aspect of its very wide range of http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/causdis/asbestos.htm policy responsibilities in this time frame. The audience for the campaign were maintenance (i) an independent review of how best to support the implementation of automatic enrolment into workplace pensions workers. This group is currently at highest risk from was launched on 24 June and reported by the planned deadline of asbestos-related disease and includes those such as plumbers, 30 September. The outcomes of the review were set out in joiners, electricians, plasterers and general trades people “Making Auto-Enrolment Work—A review for the Department who regularly disturb the fabric of buildings where for Work and Pensions” (Cm 7954) published on 27 October. This asbestos is found, without realising it is there, and who independent review was led by Paul Johnson of Frontier Economics, may be working on construction sites. supported by David Yeandle of the Engineering Employers’ Federation and Adrian Boulding of Legal and General. Frontier A north-west pilot in March 2008 was assessed through Economics are being recompensed for Paul Johnson’s contribution independent pre- and post-campaign tracking carried to the review. The other members of the review team were entitled out by Continental Research. This demonstrated a post- to claim expenses. The review was supported by a core team of campaign awareness of 81% (from 33% before the three civil servants and drew upon wider policy, analytical and campaign), among the target group of plumbers, electricians other expertise within the Department. No staff were seconded and general trades people. from outside Whitehall to work on the review. The cost of these staff were met from the Department’s core budget with total The effectiveness of the first national campaign, which additional costs, including the publication of the review team’s ran between October and November 2008, was also report and seminars with key stakeholders, estimated at around assessed pre- and post-campaign. This demonstrated an £95,000; 80% awareness of the campaign (from 40% before the (ii) an independent review of the work capability assessment campaign) among the target group of plumbers, joiners, was announced on 29 June and is being led by Professor Malcolm electricians and general trades people; with more than Harrington along with a Scrutiny Group chaired by Professor half saying they were learning something new about the David Haslam, and with three other members: Paul Farmer, risk associated with asbestos. Ongoing monitoring of Olivia Carlton and Neil Lennox. Professor Harrington’s work is HSE’s website saw a 600% increase in visits to the pages being supported by five civil servants. There are no secondees relating to asbestos. from outside Whitehall. All are being paid, with the exception of Neil Lennox who is carrying out the work on a pro bono basis, Assessment of the most recent phase of a national and all are entitled to claim expenses. The estimated cost of this campaign (which in ran November and December 2009) review is £125,000 and it is anticipated that it will report by the showed an overall awareness post campaign of 85% by end of 2010; trades people, rising to 90% among electricians. In (iii) a review of state pension age. A Call for Evidence on when addition, 76% of the audience said they had taken, or the state pension age should increase to 66 was published on planned to take, more safety precautions when working 24 June and the conclusions of the review were contained in “A with asbestos. Sustainable State Pension: when the State Pension age will increase to 66” (Cm 7956) published on 3 November. The cost of the Departmental Contracts review is being met from the Department’s core budget. The review is being led by a core team of six staff, who also have Mr Russell Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for responsibilities for other state pension policy work within the Work and Pensions when he plans to announce the Department. They draw upon wider analytical and other expertise from within the Department. No staff have been seconded from awarding of the contract to operate the giro cheque outside Whitehall to work on the review. scheme. [24287]

Steve Webb: We will make an announcement on the Disability Living Allowance: Care Homes outcome of the exercise to replace cheque payments once a decision has been made. Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Reviews Work and Pensions what plans he has to provide assistance for mobility services for disabled people who Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work are in full-time residential care homes. [24599] and Pensions what departmental policy reviews his Department has undertaken since 6 May 2010; on what Maria Miller: Local authorities contracts with care date each such review (a) was announced and (b) is homes will cover services to meet a resident’s assessed expected to publish its findings; what estimate he has needs. These will cover activities of daily living which made of the cost of each such review; who has been may include providing access to doctors, dentists and appointed to lead each such review; to what local services such as libraries and banks. Local authorities remuneration each review leader is entitled; how many should also take into account the resident’s emotional (i) full-time equivalent civil servants and (ii) seconded and social needs as part of the assessment. 707W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 708W

Funeral Payments Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what the average amount awarded to individuals receiving the funeral payment grant was in Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work the latest period for which figures are available. [23435] and Pensions how many funeral payment grants have been made in (a) Scotland, (b) England, (c) Wales Steve Webb: The funeral payment average award for and (d) Northern Ireland over the last three years. Great Britain for April to October 2010 was £1,209. [23433] Notes: 1. The information provided is Management Information. Our Steve Webb: Information regarding funeral payment preference is to answer all parliamentary questions using Official/ awards for Northern Ireland is a matter for my right National Statistics but in this case we only have Management hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Information available. It is not quality assured to the same extent as Official/National statistics and there are some issues with the The available information is in the following table. data, for example, numbers given do not include claims which Number of funeral payment awards by country and financial year were processed clerically and had not been entered on to the Social Fund Computer System by the end of October 2010. Scotland England Wales 2. The average award includes awards made after re-consideration 2007-08 5,990 31,260 2,280 or appeal. 2008-09 5,770 32,460 2,290 3. The amount has been rounded to the nearest £1. 2009-10 5,560 31,220 2,240 Source: Notes: Department for Work and Pensions Social Fund Policy, Budget 1. The information provided is Management Information. Our preference and Management Information System. is to answer all parliamentary questions using Official/National Statistics but in this case we only have Management Information available. It is not quality assured to the same extent as Official/National statistics Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and there are some issues with the data, for example, numbers given and Pensions how many funeral payment grants have do not include claims which were processed clerically and had not subsequently been recovered from the estate of the been entered on to the Social Fund Computer System by the end of deceased by his Department in the latest period for the relevant financial year. 2. The number of awards includes those made after re-consideration which figures are available; and what the monetary or appeal. value of such sums recovered was. [23437] 3. Numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. Source: Steve Webb: The number of funeral payment awards Department for Work and Pensions Social Fund Policy, Budget and on which some recovery from the estate of the deceased Management Information System was made in Great Britain from April to October 2010 was 240 and the monetary value of the sums recovered Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work was £120,000. and Pensions how many applications for funeral Notes: payment grants have been refused in (a) Scotland, (b) 1. The information provided is Management Information. Our England, (c) Wales and (d) Northern Ireland over the preference is to answer all parliamentary questions using Official/ last three years; and how many such refusals were National Statistics but in this case we only have Management appealed against. [23434] Information available. It is not quality assured to the same extent as Official/National statistics and there are some issues with the data, for example, figures given do not include recoveries which Steve Webb: Information regarding funeral payment had not been entered on to the Social Fund Computer System by awards for Northern Ireland is a matter for my right the end of October 2010. hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. 2. The figures are for funeral payment awards recovered in full or Information regarding funeral payment appeals is a in part. matter for my right hon. Friend, the Justice Secretary. 3. The number of funeral payment awards on which some recovery was made has been rounded to the nearest 10 and the monetary The available information is in the following table. value of the sums recovered to the nearest £10,000. Number of funeral payment initial refusals by country and financial Source: year Department for Work and Pensions Social Fund Policy, Budget Scotland England Wales and Management Information System. 2007-08 2,970 22,850 1,730 2008-09 2,980 26,700 1,980 Housing Benefit 2009-10 3,050 27,530 2,000 Notes: Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for 1. The information provided is Management Information. Our preference is to answer all parliamentary questions using Official/National Statistics Work and Pensions whether he has made a recent but in this case we only have Management Information available. It is estimate of the number of housing benefit claimants in not quality assured to the same extent as Official/National statistics (a) England, (b) Birmingham and (c) Birmingham, and there are some issues with the data, for example, numbers given Ladywood constituency who are in paid employment. do not include claims which were processed clerically and had not [18544] been entered on to the Social Fund Computer System by the end of the relevant financial year. 2. The numbers are for initial refusals only and do not include the Steve Webb: The information is not available at the impact of re-considerations or appeals. level of parliamentary constituency. 3. Numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. Source: The most recent available estimates of non-passported Department for Work and Pensions Social Fund Policy, Budget and housing benefit recipients in work are given in the Management Information System. following table for England and Birmingham: 709W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 710W

Housing benefit recipients by employment status, England and Birmingham local being undertaken to add other geographical areas to the authority, July 2010 data: this will include parliamentary constituencies housing Number benefit caseload and average weekly amounts at local Non- Non- passported passported All housing authority area level are published on the Department’s in not in All benefit website at: employment employment passported recipients http://www.dwp.gov.uk/asd/hbctb.asp England 612,290 712,120 2,743,510 4,070,960 Birmingham 13,780 16,380 80,540 110,840 Housing Benefit: East Sussex Notes: 1. Estimates of passported housing benefit recipients undertaking part-time work are not available. Amber Rudd: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2. People claiming housing benefit not in receipt of a passported benefit are and Pensions how many households in (a) East Sussex recorded as being in employment if their local authority has recorded employment and (b) Hastings and Rye constituency were in receipt income from either the main claimant, or partner of claimant (if applicable), in calculating the housing benefit award. of housing benefit of more than £400 a week in the 3. The data refer to benefit units, which may be a single person or a couple. latest period for which figures are available. [18426] 4. Passported status does not include recipients with unknown passported status. 5. Housing benefit figures exclude any extended payment cases. An extended Steve Webb: At July 2010, for housing benefit claims payment is a payment that may be received for a further four weeks when they in the private rented sector, our records show that there start working full time, work more hours or earn more money. are no households in the area covered by East Sussex 6. SHBE is a monthly electronic scan of claimant level data direct from local authority computer systems. It replaces quarterly aggregate clerical returns. The county council receiving over £400 per week. data are available monthly from November 2008 and July 2010 is the latest Source: available. 7. Figures are at 10 July 2010. Single Housing Benefit Extract for July 2010. 8. The figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. 9. Totals may not sum due to rounding. Source: Housing Benefit: Rents Single Housing Benefit Extract. Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for Ian Lavery: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Work and Pensions what modelling his Department and Pensions whether he has made a recent estimate of has undertaken in respect of the likely effects on the the number of households likely to be affected by the housing benefit budget of proposed increases in social implementation of the housing benefit proposals in the rents. [20466] comprehensive spending review in (a) Wansbeck (b) (c) constituency, Northumberland and the UK. Steve Webb: The Department for Communities and [22922] Local Government have undertaken the work on affordable rents and will be publishing more information on this Steve Webb: We will publish a document on the measure shortly. Estimates of impacts are not yet included impacts of the proposed changes to the shared room in the forecasts made by the Department for Work and rate in due course. This will include information at the Pensions. local authority level.

Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Institute for Fiscal Studies: Public Expenditure Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of the merits of direct payment of housing benefit to Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for private landlords. [23332] Work and Pensions how much his Department has spent on services provided by the Institute for Fiscal Steve Webb: We are conducting a review of the first Studies in the last 24 months. [20469] two years’ operation of the local housing allowance to monitor its impact at a national level. The review aims Chris Grayling: During the 24-month period between to cover a range of issues that are likely to be of interest 1 October 2008 and 30 September 2010, the Department to landlords, including direct payment to tenants and for Work and Pensions spent a total of £409,307 on the operation of the safeguards for tenants who are services provided by The Institute of Fiscal Studies, unable or unlikely to manage their rental payments. An Of the £35,235 spent since May 1 2010, £29,990 was in-depth focus group study of landlords concerning for analysis of the Wealth and Assets Survey and their attitudes to, and experiences of, the local housing was committed to prior to the general election, £5,125 allowance scheme will be included. The review is due to was paid to the IFS to validate the annual poverty report in the later in the year. statistics (this is a long standing commitment which uses the vast amount of expertise the IFS has in analysing Housing Benefit: Brighton these datasets) and £120 was for miscellaneous costs.

Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Jobcentres: Compensation and Pensions how many people resident in Brighton, Kemptown constituency are in receipt of housing Simon Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for benefit; what the equivalent figure was in each of the Work and Pensions how many compensation payments last 10 years; and if he will make a statement. [19092] were made for errors by job centres in (a) Norwich, (b) England and (c) each of the smallest geographical Steve Webb: The information is not available. areas for which figures are available in the latest period At present geographic breakdowns are only available for which figures are available; and what the monetary for local authorities and regions. However, an exercise is value of such payments was in each case. [20501] 711W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 712W

Chris Grayling: The administration of Jobcentre Plus Chris Grayling: Our White Paper, ‘Universal Credit: is the responsibility of the chief executive, Darra Singh. welfare that works’ sets out our plans for fundamental I have asked him to provide the hon. Member with the welfare reform. We shall introduce a ‘claimant commitment’ information requested. to clearly set out what is expected of an individual. This Letter from Darra Singh, dated November 2010: approach will be introduced in existing benefits and The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question Universal Credit. asking how many compensation payments were made for errors In placing reasonable requirements on claimants, by job centres in (a) Norwich, (b) England and (c) each of the Jobcentre Plus advisers will take into account local smallest geographical areas for which figures are available in the labour market conditions and sanctions will only follow latest period for which figures are available; and what the monetary where a claimant has failed to meet those reasonable value of such payments was in each case. This is something which falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as Chief Executive requirements. of Jobcentre Plus. There are around 450,000 unfilled vacancies in the Compensation payments are made through our Special Payments economy at any one time, but this snapshot hides huge scheme. There are six categories that Special Payments fall under, dynamism. In the last three months over one million they are; loss of statutory entitlement, compensation for delay, new vacancies have been reported to Jobcentre Plus actual financial loss, gross inconvenience, gross embarrassment alone, which is over 10,000 every working day. and severe distress. An explanation of these categories is provided in Annex 1. With new jobs coming up all the time, most people The Special Payments scheme is administered at a regional can leave unemployment quickly. Over 50% of new JSA level, although certain Special Payments can be awarded locally. claimants leave within three months and around three Special Payments made regionally and locally for Norwich are quarters leave within six months. shown in Annex 1. Special Payments made regionally are shown for each region in Annex 2, which includes the overall figure for England. Locally awarded Special Payment data for each region Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for and for England as a whole could only be provided at disproportionate Work and Pensions what proportion of jobseeker’s cost. allowance claimants who have received benefit The information has been placed in the Library. sanctions have also received hardship payments in the [24370] I hope this information is helpful. last 12 months.

Jobseeker’s Allowance Chris Grayling: The Department does not hold reliable data on the number of JSA claimants who have been sanctioned and also claimed hardship payments. Therefore Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for the information requested is not available. Work and Pensions if he will estimate the proportion of people claiming jobseeker’s allowance who do not have Private Rented Housing access to a car. [23320]

Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work The information requested falls within the responsibility and Pensions if he will estimate the level of (a) median of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority private rented sector rents and (b) local reference rents to reply. in 2020. [23031] Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated November 2010: Steve Webb: The Department is currently considering As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking the detailed policy design of the 2013 housing benefit the proportion of people claiming jobseeker’s allowance who do measures announced in the June 2010 Budget in preparation not have access to a car. (23320). for introduction of the Welfare Reform Bill early in The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles the number 2011. As part of this policy design, the Department will of claimants of Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) from the Jobcentre consider how to treat pre-local housing allowance cases Plus administrative system. This system does not hold information in future. However, there is no intention at all that local on the number of claimants of Jobseeker’s Allowance who do not reference rents will be used in the assessment of housing have access to a car. benefit by 2020, and the Department will therefore not The Annual Population Survey (APS) collects information on carry out a comparison with median private rented the number of people who report obtaining JSA who have sector rents for that time period. problems with transport which would stop them from taking a job and their reasons. In the 12 month period January 2009 to December 2009 the proportion of people who reported claiming Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work JSA that had transport problems because they did not have and Pensions what estimate he has made of the personal transport (Car, motorcycle etc) was 5%. proportion of private rented sector housing that will be National and local area estimates for many labour market available to housing benefit recipients in 2020. [23032] statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant count are available on the NOMIS website at Steve Webb: The Department is currently considering http://www.nomisweb.co.uk the detailed policy design of the 2013 housing benefit measures announced in the June 2010 Budget in preparation Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for for introduction of the Welfare Reform Bill early in Work and Pensions what account his proposed 2011. This will include provision to update local housing restriction on the payment of jobseekers’ allowance allowance rates according to the Consumer Price Index. will take of the number of job vacancies at local level. This legislation will include provision for future governments [23507] to assess, and if necessary adjust, the level of rates. 713W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 714W

Social Rented Housing Contact name, position with the company and direct telephone number; Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work The type of business they are involved in; and Pensions what estimate he has made of the number The number of employees they have at the individual site; and of individuals in households in which at least one A verbal/written assurance that the job meets minimum wage member works for at least 16 hours per week who will requirements. (a) have their income reduced and (b) fall below the Over and above this we have a robust complaints process and equivalised poverty line of 60% of median household fully investigate all complaints from employees and jobseekers income as a result of his proposals for the rent to be and in a small number of cases Jobcentre Plus will refuse to charged to new tenants by social landlords; and what advertise vacancies from companies where these complaints are upheld. the average amount is by which the income of affected households will be reduced as a result of that measure. Our vacancies services are free of charge. The Employment and Training Act 1973 places a statutory duty on the Secretary of [21913] State to provide services to help employers seeking employees and expressly prevents charging. Steve Webb: I refer the hon. Member to the answer given to her by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work State for Communities and Local Government on the and Pensions whether his Department has made a 4 November 2010, Official Report, column 942W. recent estimate of the profit made by employment agencies in respect of the advertisement of vacancies State Retirement Pensions through Jobcentre Plus on behalf of privately owned companies. [24601] Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will take steps to maintain the level Chris Grayling: The administration of Jobcentre Plus of pension payments made to people who currently is a matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, receive payments of over £140 per week after the Darra Singh. I have asked him to provide the hon. implementation of his Department’s proposed Member with the information requested. £140 per week limit on such payments. [24320] Letter from Darra Singh: The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question Steve Webb: The Government are currently considering asking whether a recent estimate has been made by the Department a number of options for simplifying the state pension of Work and Pensions of the profit made by employment agencies system but final decisions have not yet been made. advertising vacancies through Jobcentre Plus on behalf of private Proposals would only affect pensioners who reach state companies. pension age on or after any changes are introduced. We have never attempted to make estimates of profits made by Current state pension entitlement will not be affected employment agencies from their work with Jobcentre Plus. To do so would not be of particular value to us and would be unlikely to by this reform. be accurate unless we made requests to individual agencies for information about profits derived from particular activities. And Vacancies seeking such information might undermine working relationships that are currently of real benefit to many of our customers. Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work We recommend to customers that they register with appropriate agencies and search for vacancies on the Internet. and Pensions what criteria are used to determine which companies can advertise through Jobcentre Plus; and I hope this information is helpful. whether payment is made by private companies when listing job vacancies through Jobcentre Plus. [24600] Welfare State: Reform

Chris Grayling: The administration of Jobcentre Plus Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Work is a matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, and Pensions what steps he plans to take to ensure that Darra Singh. I have asked him to provide the hon. ill and disabled people are not adversely affected by the Member with the information requested. implementation of his proposed welfare reforms. Letter from Darra Singh: [21709] The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions has asked me to reply to your question asking what criteria are used to determine Maria Miller: The coalition Government are determined which companies can advertise through Jobcentre Plus; and whether to reform the benefit system to make it simpler, fairer, payment is made by private companies when listing job vacancies more affordable and better able to tackle poverty and through Jobcentre Plus. This is something that falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as Chief Executive of Jobcentre welfare dependency. To achieve this we will introduce Plus. an integrated working age universal credit. Jobcentre Plus provides a free public employment service to Universal credit will ensure that all amounts of work assist people seeking employment and employers seeking employees. will be more financially rewarding than inactivity and As part of this, we advertise all vacancies, providing they comply the improved incomes that flow from it will have beneficial with civil and criminal law with the exception of some vacancies effects for people’s health and well-being. Detailed plans in the adult entertainment industry. are set out in the White Paper ‘Universal Credit: welfare In terms of your specific question, no criteria are used to that works’, published on 11 November. We are also determine companies that may use our services, but we always publishing an impact assessment of the changes, including require the following information before advertising any vacancies: an equality impact assessment. Further detail on the A full postal address; impacts of this and other measures will be provided A landline telephone number; with the Welfare Reform Bill. 715W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 716W

In addition we continually review the best way to Reduction of Animals in Research and (b) the official support disabled people to enter and remain in employment. scrutiny of laboratories licensed to use animals for We want to break down barriers that make it more research purposes. [24086] difficult for disabled people to find work, access goods and services or participate fully in community life; and Lynne Featherstone: I am not yet in a position to we want the benefit system to provide robust and credible assess the effects of the outcomes of the comprehensive support to those who face the greatest barriers and cost. spending review on Home Office funding of the National Centre for the Replacement, Refinement and Reduction Winter Fuel Payments of Animals in Research and the official scrutiny of laboratories licensed to use animals for research purposes. Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary will make Pensions what estimate he has made of the cost to the decisions on the delivery of budgets as part of the public purse of winter fuel payments in (a) 2010-11 departmental business plan. No decisions have yet been and (b) 2011-12; and what estimate he has made of the taken over staffing. proportion of that cost attributable to those (i) under the age of 65, (ii) between 65 and 70, (iii) between Asylum: Finance 70 and 75 and (iv) over the age of 75. [23304]

Steve Webb: Winter fuel payment expenditure for Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2010-11 and 2011-12 is estimated to be £2.7 billion and Home Department how many Section 4 payment cards £2.1 billion respectively. are in use by people in (a) Scotland, (b) England, (c) Wales and (d) Northern Ireland. [23479] The proportion of expenditure estimated to be in each of the age categories supplied is: Damian Green: There are currently 358 Azure payment 2010-11 2011-12 cards in use in Scotland, 3,452 in England, 300 in Wales and 27 in Northern Ireland. Under 65 0.22 0.21 65-69 0.18 0.20 Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the 70-74 0.15 0.16 Home Department which retailers participate in 75 and over 0.44 0.44 the Section 4 payment card scheme, and what plans the Notes: UK Border Agency has to extend the (a) number and 1. Expenditure figures are rounded to the nearest £100 million and proportions are rounded to the nearest 0.01. (b) range of participating retailers. [23480] 2. Winter fuel payment rates for 2010-11 will be £400 for households with someone aged 80 and over and £250 for households with someone who has Damian Green: The Section 4 payment card can be reached women’s state pension age. This includes a temporary increase of £100 and £50 respectively. Rates for 2011-12 have been assumed to be £300 and £200 used at over 8,800 retail outlets throughout the UK. respectively. The Azure payment card is accepted at all Tesco, Asda, 3. Tables containing benefit expenditure by benefit, local authority and parliamentary constituency can be found at the following URL: Sainsburys, Morrisons and Co-op Group supermarkets http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/index.php?page=expenditure and local shops. The card can also be used at Boots and Source: Peacocks clothing stores. Mothercare will shortly be DWP June 2010 Budget forecasts joining the scheme and Sodexo is in discussions with low cost supermarkets Lidl and Aldi to reconsider their decision not to join the scheme. HOME DEPARTMENT Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Animal Experiments: Primates Home Department how much in unspent credit has been recovered from section 4 payment cards in each Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for the month since the scheme was introduced. [23482] Home Department pursuant to the answer of 4 November 2010, Official Report, column 876W, if Damian Green: The estimated amount of unspent she will introduce a requirement to record whether credit recovered from the Section 4 payment card for primates imported into the UK for research are F1 or the first year of its operation is £650,000. The figure is F2+ generation. [23899] not collated monthly.

Lynne Featherstone: Our current requirements on Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the records for non-human primates imported into the United Home Department what the operating costs for the Kingdom for scientific research are under review and I Section 4 payment card scheme were in the last expect to receive advice and recommendations in due 12 months for which figures are available. [23483] course. I will write advising of any change in current policy once a decision has been made. Damian Green: The Section 4 payment card scheme is cost neutral, costs being covered by commission from Animal Welfare: Public Expenditure retailers and improved efficiency in UK Border Agency processes. Mr Gale: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assessment she has made of the Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the effects of the outcomes of the comprehensive spending Home Department at what rate calls to the automated review on (a) her Department’s funding of the balance check telephone line for users of the Section 4 National Centre for the Replacement, Refinement and payment card are charged. [23484] 717W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 718W

Damian Green: The automated balance check telephone Damian Green: The UK Border Agency has held line for users of the Section 4 payment card is a free discussions with the Association of Charity Shops who phone facility. There is no cost to the caller from BT canvassed their members on viability of extending the landlines and other landlines provided by other telephone Section 4 payment scheme to include charity shops. The operators. Costs for calls made from mobiles may vary members did not ask to be included in the Section 4 subject to the charges of the specific mobile operator. payment card scheme. However, the UK Border Agency is currently in talks with the Red Cross who have Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the indicated an interest in the scheme. Home Department whether there is a multilingual option for users of the Section 4 payment card using Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the the automated balance check telephone line. [23485] Home Department how many Section 4 payment cards have been reported (a) lost or stolen or (b) used Damian Green: There is no multilingual option for without authorisation in each month since the users of the Section 4 payment card using the automated introduction of the scheme. [23491] balance checking telephone operators. The facility is accessed on average 12,000 times per week with an Damian Green: The UK Border Agency does not average call time of 37 seconds. centrally record the numbers of Section 4 payment cards that have been lost or stolen. The UK Border Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Agency only tracks replacements, irrespective of the Home Department whether the UK Border Agency reason for the replacement. operates a helpline for participating retailers on the Cards can be cancelled immediately in the case of operation of the Section 4 payment card. [23486] loss or theft. Damian Green: The UK Border Agency does not Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the operate a helpline facility for participating retailers on Home Department what changes were made to the the operation of the Section 4 payment card. Each Section 4 payment card scheme as a consequence of its affiliate retailer manages their staff training with assistance trial in Scotland. [23492] from Sodexo.

Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Damian Green: The Section 4 payment card scheme Home Department what emergency facilities are was not trialled in Scotland. Scotland was the first available for users of the Section 4 payment card whose region in which the Section 4 payment card scheme was implemented. Therefore, no changes were made to the weekly resources have been exceeded. [23487] scheme following the first stage of the roll out in Scotland. Damian Green: The UK Border Agency does not provide any emergency facilities for users of the Section 4 Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the payment card whose weekly resources have been exceeded. Home Department what budget advice is provided to The current rate of £39.39 per person, per week is individuals using Section 4 payment cards; in what considered to be sufficient to meet the essential living language this advice is available; and if she will place in needs of the supported persons. the Library a copy of such guidance. [23493]

Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Damian Green: Each Section 4 payment card is Home Department if she will consider the merits of distributed by the accommodation providers on behalf increasing the weekly carry-over limit for the Section 4 of the UK Border Agency.The accompanying information payment card. [23488] is in English and does not contain any budget advice.

Damian Green: The UK Border Agency currently has Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the no plans to review the £5 carry-over limit for supported Home Department whether the UK Border Agency singles. The £5 carry-over limit does not currently apply has received reports of restrictions which retailers have to families with children under the age of 18 or expectant placed on the purchase of certain items by users of mothers. Section 4 payment cards. [23494]

Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Damian Green: Restrictions on the type of items that Home Department whether retailers are able to credit a can be purchased with the Section 4 payment card are Section 4 payment card where a user has returned a set by the UK Border Agency not the contracted retailers. purchased item. [23489] Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Damian Green: There is no provision for retailers to Home Department if she will bring forward proposals immediately credit a Section 4 payment card where a to allow the withdrawal of limited cash sums using the user has returned a purchased item. Credits appear on section 4 payment card to enable payment for items or the supported persons Section 4 payment card account services not accessible through participating retailers. within 48-hours from the return of the item. [23731]

Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Damian Green: There are currently no plans to allow Home Department if she will assess the merits of the withdrawal of cash sums using the Section 4 payment extending the Section 4 payment card scheme to card to enable payment for items or services not accessible include charity shops. [23490] through participating retailers. 719W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 720W

Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the was terminated; whether the UK Border Agency is Home Department if the UK Border Agency will bring liable for payments to Glasgow City Council as a result forward proposals to allow users of the section 4 of the early termination of the contract; with what payment card to check card balances (a) online and providers the UK Border Agency intends to rehouse (b) in-store at participating retailers. [23732] asylum seekers following the termination of the contract; what type of accommodation will be Damian Green: There are currently no plans to allow provided; and what discussions the UK Border Agency users of the Section 4 payment card to check card had with Glasgow City Council on the housing balances either online or in-store at participating retailers. contract before termination occurred. [23917] A free phone automatic balance checking facility is available to enable service users to manage their weekly Damian Green: A contract review allowed the UK support. Border Agency (UKBA) and Glasgow city council to review the terms of the contract. Discussions were held Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the over a period of months but the two parties were unable Home Department if she will bring forward proposals to reach agreement on the costs of housing asylum to enable individuals using section 4 payment cards to seekers despite the UKBA offering an increase on use (a) supermarket loyalty cards and (b) discount what are, already, the highest accommodation charges coupons when making purchases. [23733] in the UK outside London. I agreed with the final decision to terminate the contract with Glasgow city Damian Green: The ability of individuals to use Section council just prior to the termination letter being issued 4 payment cards in conjunction with supermarket loyalty on 5 November 2010. cards and discount coupons is a matter for the participating retailers. Asylum seekers currently accommodated by Glasgow city council will be transferred to either Glasgow YMCA Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the or to the Angel Group and will be provided with Home Department what reports she has received of suitable housing to the equivalent standards as that adverse effects on asylum seekers of the operation of supplied by Glasgow city council. We are hopeful that the section 4 payment card system. [23734] in many cases they will be able to remain in the same accommodation. The agency will be liable for early Damian Green: The Asylum Support Partnership has termination costs which have not yet been determined. produced a report entitled ‘Your inflexible friend: the These costs will be significantly lower than the savings cost of living without cash’ dated October 2010. Although that will now be realised by moving service users to this report only sampled 1% of those who use Azure alternative providers already operating in Glasgow. cards and the vast majority responded positively, it raises a number of points regarding the operation of Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the the Section 4 payment card for failed asylum seekers. Home Department what daily rate the UK Border The Government are committed to ongoing monitoring Agency paid for asylum seeker accommodation with of the operation of the system, including through dialogue Glasgow city council. [23928] with voluntary sector partners, but it does not accept that the results from the survey are indicative of the experience of the majority of users. Damian Green: This information is commercially sensitive and the disclosure of such rates would be likely to In October 2008, the Refugee Council produced a prejudice the commercial interests of both the Home report entitled ‘More Token Gestures: A report into the Office and those companies and local authorities with use of vouchers for asylum seekers claiming Section 4 whom the Home Office enters into contracts but they support’ dated October 2008. are the highest in the UK outside London. Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when (a) Ministers and (b) UK Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Border Agency officials will arrange to meet Home Department what daily rate the UK Border representatives of the Asylum Support Partnership to Agency will pay for asylum seeker accommodation discuss the operation of section 4 payment cards. with replacement providers following the Agency’s [23735] decision to terminate its housing contract with Glasgow city council. [23929] Damian Green: There are no plans for Ministers to meet with representatives of the Asylum Support Damian Green: This information is commercially sensitive Partnership to discuss the operation of Section 4 payment and the disclosure of such rates would be likely to cards. However, members of the Asylum Support prejudice the commercial interests of both the Home Partnership regularly attend working level meetings Office and those companies and local authorities with with UK Border Agency officials at which Section 4 whom the Home Office enters into contracts. payment cards and other issues are discussed.

Asylum: Glasgow Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assessment the UK Border Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Agency has made of the costs incurred by asylum Home Department when the decision to terminate the seekers in moving accommodation following the UK Border Agency housing contract with Glasgow Agency’s decision to terminate its housing contract City Council was taken; for what reasons the contract with Glasgow city council. [23930] 721W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 722W

Damian Green: The incoming accommodation providers in Glasgow Housing Association properties advising will manage and pay the costs associated with moving them of the possibility that they may be moved to asylum seekers to alternative accommodation. alternative accommodation and offering details of support available to them if they have any queries. Further Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the communication is planned to keep the service users Home Department how many (a) individuals and (b) advised of future developments. families the UK Border Agency is housing in accommodation managed by Glasgow city council. Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the [23932] Home Department whether the UK Border Agency will be contracting with any organisations to assist Damian Green: As of 8 November 2010 Glasgow city tenants moving from Glasgow city council council were supporting 274 individuals and 334 families, accommodation. [23940] a combined total of 1,271 individuals. Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Damian Green: The responsibility for providing support Home Department what the timescale is for moving to and accommodation to service users moving from Glasgow alternative accommodation asylum seekers housed city council rests with the incoming accommodation with Glasgow city council. [23933] provider. The incoming accommodation provider will be one of our two remaining regional accommodation Damian Green: The contract with Glasgow city council providers. The Scottish Refugee Council will be in a will terminate on 3 February and we will transfer those position to provide additional advice if required. affected to an alternative provider by this date. This may not require a physical move given that one of the Departmental Public Expenditure other accommodation providers in Glasgow also uses Glasgow Housing Association as a provider of Ed Balls: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home accommodation. Department on what dates since 11 May 2010 she met Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the (a) the Prime Minister, (b) the Chancellor of the Home Department what assistance the UK Border Exchequer and (c) the Chief Secretary to the Treasury Agency plans to provide for asylum seekers with to discuss the comprehensive spending review removal costs following the Agency’s decision to settlement for her Department. [22837] terminate its housing contract with Glasgow city council. [23934] Mrs May [holding answer 9 November 2010]: I had a number of conversations, meetings and telephone calls Damian Green: Removal costs will be the responsibility with the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the incoming provider and not for the affected asylum and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury during the seekers. spending review.

Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Detention Centres: Children Home Department what discussions the UK Border Agency had with (a) UK Ministers, (b) the Scottish Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for the Executive and (c) the Scottish Refugee Council prior Home Department how many children were held in to the Agency’s decision to terminate its housing detention awaiting deportation on the most recent date contract with Glasgow city council. [23936] for which figures are available. [24095] Damian Green: The UK Border Agency advised Home Office Ministers of the intention to terminate the contract Damian Green: National Statistics on children detained and also informed officials at the Scottish Government solely under Immigration Act powers are published and the Scottish Refugee Council of the likelihood of quarterly in the Control of Immigration: Quarterly termination and of the final decision to terminate the Statistical Summary, United Kingdom. The Statistical contract prior to the formal termination letter being Summary for the second quarter of 2010, the most issued on 5 November 2010. recent available, coupled with local management information, indicates that just one child was detained Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the with its family awaiting removal as at 30 June 2010. Home Department whether any asylum seekers being This figure is based on management information and re-housed from accommodation with Glasgow city is not subject to the detailed checks that apply for council will be moved to accommodation outside (a) National Statistics. It is provisional and may be subject Glasgow city and (b) Scotland. [23937] to change. Damian Green: There are no plans to move asylum Information on people detained solely under Immigration seekers currently supported by Glasgow city council Act powers as at 30 September will be available on either outside of Glasgow or Scotland. 25 November in the Control of Immigration: Quarterly Statistical Summary, United Kingdom, July-September Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2010 on the Home Office’s Research, Development and Home Department what advice has been issued by the Statistics website at: UK Border Agency to asylum seeker tenants of http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- Glasgow city council regarding their re-housing. [23939] stats.html Damian Green: A letter has been issued to all service Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for the users currently accommodated by Glasgow city council Home Department how many children have been 723W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 724W detained in each type of accommodation in each for the Home Department launched a consultation over location in each of the last five years. [24096] the summer to ensure that we gathered a wide range of views and evidence, before announcing our plans for Damian Green: The information requested is not the first full annual limit. The consultation is now recorded centrally and could be obtained only by the closed and we have received a high volume of responses detailed examination of individual case records at which are being carefully assessed. The Government disproportionate cost. will announce their decisions in due course. National Statistics on children detained solely under Police Custody: Illegal Immigrants Immigration Act powers are published quarterly in the Control of Immigration: Quarterly Statistical Summary, Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the United Kingdom. Information on people detained solely Home Department pursuant to the answer of under Immigration Act powers as at 30 September will 2 November 2010, Official Report, columns 700-1W, on be available on 25 November in the Control of Immigration: police custody: illegal immigrants, what records she Quarterly Statistical Summary, United Kingdom, July- holds on the action taken in those cases where (a) UK September 2010 on the Home Office’s Research, Border Agency officers did not attend a police station Development and Statistics website at: and (b) such an officer attended and the individual was http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- not arrested. [23666] stats.html The Government have made clear their commitment Damian Green: The example given in the previous to end the detention of children and continues to work answer of 2 November 2010 related to police inquiries with its corporate partners to find an alternative that to the UK Border Agency’s London and south-east protects the welfare of children, without undermining region about possible clandestine entry to the UK in UK immigration laws. vehicles (known within UK Border Agency as “lorry drops”). Of the 286 “lorry drop” requests from the police Domestic Violence: Arrests within this region for the period April to September 2010, 253 were attended by UK Border Agency staff. Of Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the the 33 that were not, 10 were dealt with by serving Home Department what estimate she has made of the illegal entry papers by fax. The remaining 23 were not number of (a) arrests and (b) convictions for domestic attended for various reasons including insufficient resources. violence offences in Dartford constituency in each of There were 232 arrests in total during this period. The the last five years. [24147] UK Border Agency took no further action against 22 individuals because an immigration offence was not Lynne Featherstone: The available data are provided identified. in the following table which shows the number of arrests Please note, this information is taken from management and convictions for domestic violence offences in Kent information tools; it has not been quality assured under between 2005-06 and 2009-10. National Statistics protocols and should be treated as Number of arrests and convictions for domestic violence offences in Kent provisional. between 2005-06 and 2009-10 Police: Finance Number of domestic violence incidents where Number of convictions an arrest was made of domestic violence Ed Balls: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home relating to the incident offences3 Department when she plans to publish the funding 2005-061 4,517 195 allocations for each police authority for (a) 2011-12, 2006-071 6,016 797 (b) 2012-13, (c) 2013-14 and (d) 2014-15. [22838] 2007-08 6,696 1,072 2008-09 7,058 1,152 Mrs May [holding answer 9 November 2010]: As my 2009-102 — 1,078 right hon. Friend the Minister for Policing and Criminal 1 For 2005-06 and 2006-07 the number of convictions of domestic violence Justice (Nick Herbert) told the House on 1 November offences only includes incidents involving adult offenders and adult victims as data were not collected on incidents involving young victims or young offenders. 2010, Official Report, column 600, we intend to place 2 Data were not collected from forces in 2009-10 on the number of domestic provisional Home Office Police Grant funding allocations violence incidents where an arrest was made relating to the incident. for 2011-12 and indicative funding allocations for 2012-13 3 Convictions data are provided by the Crown Prosecution Service. to 2014-15 for all police authorities before the House of Commons in early December. Immigration Controls: Northern Ireland Police: Manpower

Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for the Ed Balls: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Home Department what assessment her Department Department if she will estimate the number of officers has made of the effects of implementation of the in each police force area with 30 years’ service or more. proposed immigration cap on the academic and [23024] research community in Northern Ireland. [23925] Mrs May [holding answer 9 November 2010]: The Damian Green: We have made it clear that we want to available data are provided in the following table which continue attracting the brightest and the best to the shows the number of police officers in each police force UK. As part of this commitment, the Secretary of State area with 30 years service or more, as at 31 March 2010. 725W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 726W

Number of police officers in each police force area with 30 years service or more, as at 31 March 20101 Number of years 30 to 31 31 to 32 32 to 33 33 to 34 34 to 35 Over 35 Total

Avon and Somerset 27 12 004447 Bedfordshire 11 4 630226 British Transport Police 38 54 32 28 37 55 244 Cambridgeshire 11 1 102116 Cheshire 2— 2— 2— 2— 2— 2— 2— Cleveland 2114687460 Cumbria 8 3 140117 Derbyshire 2317937867 DevonandCornwall1914719252 Dorset 123230020 Durham 1211424336 Dyfed-Powys143421024 Essex 4117102 3 679 Gloucestershire 2 4 110311 Greater Manchester 45 2 445464 Gwent 76001115 Hampshire 34 8 7 5 4 14 72 Hertfordshire109942640 Humberside 15 2 531026 Kent 30 12 16 10 5 5 78 Lancashire 22 6 784350 Leicestershire97645334 Lincolnshire 6 1 340216 London, City of 10 4 752331 Merseyside 49 18 14 23 8 10 122 Metropolitan Police 423 213 135 153 87 143 1,154 Norfolk 2112107 Northamptonshire 7 3 230217 Northumbria 12 6 861134 NorthWales 712200021 NorthYorkshire100101012 Nottinghamshire 19 12 5 5 5 11 57 South Wales 30 10 623253 South Yorkshire 13 1 031220 Staffordshire222534440 Suffolk 53230013 Surrey 233610235 Sussex 177671341 Thames Valley 29 5 6 11 6 7 64 Warwickshire 6 2 100211 WestMercia3218798781 West Midlands 85 33 30 16 17 17 198 WestYorkshire522911141010126 Wiltshire 14 9 121229 Total 1,284 601 396 367 257 355 3,260 1 This table contains full-time equivalent figures that have been rounded to the nearest whole number. Because of rounding, there may be an apparent discrepancy between totals and the sums of the constituent items 2 Cheshire is unable to provide length of service figures

UK Border Agency: Northern Ireland UK Border Agency staff1 in Northern Ireland As at 31 March Full-time Part-time All

Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2009 39 3.7 42.7 Home Department how many (a) full-time and (b) 2010 52 2.02 54.02 part-time staff were employed by the UK Border 1 Full-time equivalent civil servants, excluding agency workers. Staff figures Agency in Northern Ireland in each of the last three published after July 2010 include those on paid maternity leave, these are excluded from the above. years. [24107]

Damian Green: The available figures are set out in the Visas: Taiwan following table:

1 UK Border Agency staff in Northern Ireland Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for the As at 31 March Full-time Part-time All Home Department whether her Department plans to 2007 26 1.4 27.4 assess the merits of extending visa-free access to the 2008 41 2.7 43.7 UK for visitors from Taiwan. [24002] 727W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 728W

Damian Green: The UK lifted its visa regime on the noble Lord (Lord West of Spithead) in another visitors from Taiwan on 18 May 2009 as part of a global place on 11 November 2010, Official Report, House of review of visitor visa regimes. Lords, columns WA106.

Air Force: Military Bases DEFENCE Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) for how many hours (a) RAF Wainfleet, (b) RAF Donna Nook, (c) RAF Holbeach, (d) RAF Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for West Freugh, (e) RAF Tain and (f) the Cape Wrath Defence what the name is of each location in Range were in use for training operations for each Afghanistan from which Tornados are capable of aircraft type in the latest period for which figures are operating; and how many of these have only a single available; [22948] runway suitable for operating Tornados. [23695] (2) how many passes took place at (a) RAF Nick Harvey: I am withholding the information as its Wainfleet, (b) RAF Donna Nook, (c) RAF disclosure would, or would be likely to prejudice the Holbeach, (d) RAF West Freugh, (e) RAF Tain and capability, effectiveness or security of the armed forces. (f) the Cape Wrath Range for each type of (i) RAF aircraft and (ii) non-RAF aircraft in each year since Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for 2004; and from which airbase the flights originated. Defence what assessment he has made of the ability of [22949] Harriers to operate in Afghanistan from runways which have been rendered partially unusable. [23696] Nick Harvey: The number of passes that have taken place at DTE Donna Nook, DTE Holbeach, DTE Tain Nick Harvey: I refer the hon. Member to the reply and DTE Cape Wrath for each aircraft type since 2004 given by my noble Friend, the Parliamentary Under- and the air base from which the flights originated are Secretary of State for Defence (Lord Astor of Hever) to contained in the following tables:

DTE Donna Nook Number Station Aircraft 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 20101

RAF Coningsby Typhoon — — — 117 — — 35 RAF Coningsby Jaguar — — 1,708 834 — — — RAF Coningsby Tornado F3 84 157 ————— RAF Coningsby Tornado GR4 ——————442 RAF Coningsby Tornado F3, Tornado — — 266 1,163 1,473 1,066 — GR4, Harrier GR9 (41(R) Sqn) RAF Coltishall Jaguar 4,915 3,473 558 ———— RAF Marham Tornado GR4 3,959 3,513 2,698 1,696 1,759 1,473 1,452 RAF Cottesmore and RAF Harrier GR9 1,061 1,142 977 412 232 270 321 Wittering Unknown Harrier GR9 — 75 ————— RAF Leuchars Tornado F3 83 114 198 270 — — — RAF Lossiemouth Tornado GR4 121 61 185 96 15 84 161 RAF Valley Hawk 24 54 — — 3 43 6 RAF Benson Merlin 9 397 227 185 274 323 405 RAF Odiham Chinook 169 336 592 156 237 404 275 Unknown A-10 — — — 980 — — — RAF Lakenheath Blackhawk — — 34 46 — 20 40 RAF Lakenheath F-15 3,150 2,997 2,886 2,512 1,904 2,508 1,379 Air Warfare Centre Trials on all aircraft types 226 632 1,920 3,597 4,539 3,309 1,495 in current use with British forces Dishforth Apache ————— 6— RAF Leeming Tornado F3 310 21 257 182 — — — RAF Leeming Hawk ————6012066 BAE Hawk 289 124 219 329 159 268 121 Joint Forward Air Control Various aircraft types ——————823 Training and Standard Unit (JFACTSU) RAFCranwellKingAir ————776 Exercise Various aircraft types — — 151 ———— Exercise Various aircraft types ———25——— Exercise Various aircraft types ——————868 Exercise Unknown — 642 ————— RAFShawburyGriffin —————— 4 Visit Unknown — 61 ————— 729W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 730W

DTE Donna Nook Number Station Aircraft 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 20101

RAF Linton-on-Ouse Unknown — 20 ————— Boscombe Down Unknown 23 — 29 — 35 — — ArmyAirCorpsLynx ———2446—— RAF Lyneham C-130 — 1 1 4——50 Total 14,423 13,820 12,906 12,628 10,743 9,901 7,949

1 To 31 October.

DTE Tain Number Station Aircraft 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 20101

RAF Marham and RAF Tornado GR4 20,298 20,999 19,653 15,784 13,158 16,940 12,904 Lossiemouth RAF Coltishall Jaguar 247 102 38 4——— RAF Cottesmore and RAF Harrier GR9 254 59 39 145 16 56 72 Wittering Unknown Hawk — 40 13 46 9 6 64 RAF Benson Merlin ————16—— RAF Benson Puma ——————75 RAF Coningsby Typhoon — — — 114 16 14 — RAF Odiham Chinook 22 — 18 241 182 — 8 RAF Lakenheath MH-53 259 —————— RAF Lakenheath Blackhawk —————211— RAF Lakenheath F-15 204 153 249 211 135 340 28 Unknown C-130 4 10 15 6 6 3 — RoyalNavySeaHarrier 3459——55—— ArmyAirCorpsLynx 49————252— USNavyF/A-18 199—68———— USNavyF-14 6—————— SwedishAirForceGripen —85————48 ArmyAirCorpsAH-64D ——33———— French Air Force Mirage and Rafale — — 2 — 139 102 — Royal Saudi Air Force Unknown ———26——— Lyneham Flying Club B28 ———— 3—— BelgianAirForceF-16 ——————16 Total 21,887 21,457 20,128 16,577 13,735 17,924 13,215 1 To 31 October. DTE Holbeach Number Station Type 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 20091 20102

RAF Coningsby Typhoon ——————283 RAF Coningsby Typhoon, Tornado (F3), ————1,148179— Tornado (GR4), Harrier (GR9) (41(R) Sqn) RAF Coningsby Jaguar, Tornado (F3), 88 606 1,496 1,428 — — — Tornado (GR4), Harrier (GR9) (41(R) Sqn) RAF Coltishall Jaguar 7,002 4,408 712 ———— RAF Marham Tornado (GR4) 2,870 4,324 3,229 2,442 2,935 1,874 — RAF Cottesmore and RAF Harrier (GR9) 10,084 8,806 7,454 5,371 7,383 3,647 3,809 Wittering RAF Lossiemouth Tornado (GR4) 122 70 67 83 9 — — RAF Marham and RAF Tornado (GR4) ——————1,342 Lossiemouth RAF Benson Puma 97 127 111 — — — 202 Merlin ——————83 Puma/Merlin — — — 165 62 135 — RAF Odiham Chinook 243 — 37 140 115 240 90 RAF Lakenheath HH-60 Pave Hawk ——————22 F-15 2,943 4,613 2,963 3,589 1,682 1,401 1,104 RAF Leeming Tornado (F3) 675 — 119 — 19 — — Tornado Hawk — 277 ————— RAFValleyHawk —21—2877 RAF Leuchars Tornado — — — 146 — — — 731W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 732W

DTE Holbeach Number Station Type 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 20091 20102

MOD Boscombe Down Harrier 27 — — 59 — — — Typhoon/Tornado ————26—— Tornado/Harrier/Jaguar — — 90 ———— Yeovilton (RNAS) Lynx 11 —————17 SeaHarrierFA-230—————— RAF Cranwell Dominie ———— 2—— BAe Warton Tornado 10 42 9 — 49 22 — Aviano (USAF) F-16 534 —————— Minot AFB (USAF) B-52 16 —————— Dyess AFB (USAF) B-1 12 — 18 ———— BelgianAirForceF-16 ——54———— Twenthe, Royal F-16 ——19———— Netherlands Air Force (RNLAF) Leeuwarden (RNLAF) F-16 77 64 ————— Wattisham Lynx/Apache — — 125 331 — 65 — Apache ————58—26 Lynx 92106————44 RAFShawburyGriffin —————— 4 Unknown Tutor ——————13 Total 24,933 23,445 16,504 13,754 13,490 7,650 7,046 1 July to December only. 2 To 30 September.

DTE Cape Wrath1 Number Station Aircraft 2006 2007 2008 2009 20102

RAF Lossiemouth and RAF Marham Tornado 508 302 419 321 189 RAF Coningsby Typhoon — — 13 87 — French Air Force Mirage ———24— RAF Cottesmore and RAF Wittering Harrier (GR9) — 40 64 68 — RAF Lakenheath F-15 181 — — — — Total 689 342 496 500 189 1 Information relating to DTE Cape Wrath can be provided only from 2006. 2 To 31 October.

RAF Wainfleet closed on 3 December 2009. Armed Forces: Training Information regarding the hours that the Defence Training Estate (DTE) Donna Nook, DTE Holbeach, Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for MOD West Freugh, DTE Tain and DTE Cape Wrath Defence what recent estimate he has made of the have been used for training operations for each aircraft average cost to the public purse of training an officer type is not held in the format requested. cadet in (a) the Royal Marines, (b) the Army, (c) the RAF and (d) the Royal Navy for a commission as a Information relating to the passes that have taken junior officer. [22419] place at MOD West Freugh for aircraft since 2004 and the airbase from which the flights originated is also not Nick Harvey: The following estimates, based on held in the format requested. approximate figures, have been made of the cost of training an officer cadet through to their commission as a junior Officer. Armed Forces: Conditions of Employment A junior Royal Marine Officer’s training costs some £93,000. Other than local familiarisation training a Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for graduate from Commando Training Centre Royal Marines Defence what the average number of years’ service is is fully deployable. for (a) a Royal Marine commando and (b) an army Junior Officers in other services would be required to infantry soldier. [22793] take on further training (Phase Two) to specialise in their chosen field, before being fully deployable. However, Phase One costs are as follows: Mr Robathan: The average length of service of all For a junior Royal Navy Officer Phase One training costs some ranks in the Royal Marines, other than commissioned, £42,000. and across all trades is 11 years and two months. For a junior Army Officer Phase One training costs some The average length of service of all ranks, other than £54,000. commissioned, in the Army infantry is seven years and For a junior RAF Officer Phase One training costs some nine months. £49,000. 733W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 734W

Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for normal for the MOD to undertake a Land Quality Defence what the average cost to the public purse was Assessment (LQA), the objective being to provide sufficient of training to deployable status (a) a Royal Marine information on land quality to inform decision makers and (b) an infantryman in the latest period for which and prospective purchasers and will quantify the figures are available. [24271] contaminated land risks on a logical and rational basis. The likely clean-up costs and value of land will Nick Harvey [holding answer 15 November 2010]: ultimately be determined by the market, based on the The training cost for a Royal Marine from recruitment available information, prevailing planning situation and to graduation from the Commando Training Centre its proposed use. Royal Marines (CTCRM) is in the region of £54,000. Other than local familiarisation training, a graduate Defence: Expenditure from CTCRM is fully deployable. The training cost for an Infantry soldier from recruitment Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for to graduation from the Infantry Training Centre is in Defence whether the information provided by his the region of £31,000. However, a soldier is not deployable Department to NATO on defence expenditure for the at that stage and will undertake further training to purpose of calculating UK defence expenditure as a become operationally effective within their unit. These proportion of gross domestic product will include further costs are not collected centrally and will include spending on the (a) Stabilisation Fund, (b) Conflict an element of local training where the cost: is not easily Prevention Fund, (c) Discretionary Peacekeeping identifiable, for example one to one instruction by a Fund and (d) Single Intelligence Account. [23838] Non-Commissioned Officer improving tactical knowledge of a unit’s operational function. Mr Gerald Howarth [holding answer 12 November Chinook Helicopters 2010]: None of the funds in question were included in the estimate that future UK Defence spending will continue to meet the NATO target. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence for what reasons he reduced the number of Devonport Dockyard Chinook helicopters on order from 22 to 12. [19555]

Peter Luff: There could be no reduction in the number Sheryll Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for of Chinook helicopters on order as none have yet been Defence what plans he has for Devonport as the home ordered. of the amphibious fleet. [23193]

Defence Estates: Decontamination Mr Robathan: On current plans, Her Majesty’s Naval Base Devonport will remain the main operating base of Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for the amphibious fleet. Defence what assessment his Department has made of the extent of contamination in parts of the defence Human Rights estate under consideration for disposal; and what estimate his Department has made of the likely Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence clean-up costs. [24311] what estimate he made of the cost to his Department and its non-departmental public bodies of compliance Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has with (a) domestic, (b) European and (c) other not yet made an assessment of the level of contamination international human rights requirements in each year in parts of the defence estate under consideration for since 1997; and if he will make a statement. [18724] disposal. When a site is declared surplus to requirements it is normal for MOD to undertake a Land Quality Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) does Assessment (LQA), the objective being to provide sufficient not collate information on the costs of compliance with information on land quality to inform decision makers human rights requirements and such information could and prospective purchasers and will quantify the be provided only at disproportionate cost. The MOD contaminated land risks on a logical and rational basis. takes account of the domestic and international human The likely clean-up costs and value of land will rights framework in developing its policies and practices. ultimately be determined by the market, based on the available information, prevailing planning situation and Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft its proposed use. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how many Joint Strike Fighters have been Defence what assessment his Department has made of purchased for initial operational test and evaluation; the level of contamination of each airfield under what type they were; and what the cost of each was; consideration for closure; and what estimate his Department has made of the cost of clean-up in each [22939] case. [24312] (2) if he will estimate the cost to date of the initial operational test and evaluation phase for the Joint Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has Strike Fighter 35B; [22940] not yet made an assessment of the level of contamination (3) how many flight hours there have been during the in each airfield under consideration for disposal. When initial operational test and evaluation phase for the an airfield is declared surplus to requirements it is Joint Strike Fighter 35B. [22941] 735W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 736W

Mr Robathan: The UK requires three instrumented of other countries; on how many occasions in the last Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) aircraft to conduct joint 10 years Royal Navy ships or submarines have been in initial operational test and evaluation (IOT&E) with collision with vessels of the French navy; and if he will the US armed forces. The low rate initial production make a statement. [23998] contract signed in 2009 contained the first two UK short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) JSFs and Nick Harvey: The Department keeps records of any set a target unit price at approximately £100 million. incident between Royal Navy vessels and other vessels, The unit price for the third aircraft is still subject to including with warships of other countries. This includes commercial sensitivity, but we expect a reduction in unit all signals, formal reports, investigations, charts, data price in line with industry cost improvement and production recordings and tape recordings. learner requirements. Importantly, participation in joint In the last 10 years, there has been one occasion when IOT&E with the US services will meet the majority of a Royal Navy vessel has been in a collision with a our test and evaluation requirements as the mission French Navy vessel. This occurred in February 2009 systems are common between variants. The flying phase between the Royal Navy submarine HMS Vanguard of IOT&E is not expected to commence before 2012. and the French Submarine Le Triomphant. Military Aircraft Nimrod Aircraft

Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Defence what platforms will continue to mount a what plans he has to review the role of the Royal Air maritime search radar after the withdrawal of the Force in Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition Nimrod; whether such a radar is to be mounted on any and Reconnaissance in support of operations in other aircraft which will be tasked to carry out Afghanistan following his decision not to bring the long-range search-and-rescue; and if he will make a Nimrod MRA4 into service. [23465] statement. [22605] Mr Robathan: Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Mr Robathan [holding answer 11 November 2010]: A Acquisition and Reconnaissance (ISTAR) capability range of other military aircraft provide search and has a vital role to play in military operations in Afghanistan; rescue radar capability to the armed forces. While E-3D as with all requirements, we keep our ISTAR capabilities, Sentry is optimised for the air to air role, its radar has a including those provided by the Royal Air Force, under maritime search mode. Hercules C-130 aircraft are fitted constant review to ensure that they continue to meet with radar systems that provide basic maritime search our mission objectives. capabilities. RAF Sea King HAR 3/3 A, Royal Navy Merlin Mk 1 and the RN Lynx helicopters all possess Rosyth Dockyard: Radiation Exposure short-range surface search radar for use in maritime search and rescue work. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answer of 4 November 2010, Military Bases Official Report, column 957W, on Rosyth Dockyard: radiation exposure, by what mechanism Babcock Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for Marine (Rosyth) Ltd reports to his Department on Defence if he will urge the US Administration to compliance with radiation protection regulations; how remove stores of cluster bombs on US bases in the UK; many visits have been made by inspectors from the and if he will make a statement. [23664] relevant regulators since the contract was signed; what the monetary value is of the contract between Babcock Nick Harvey: The US Administration has removed Marine (Rosyth) Ltd and his Department; and if he its stores of cluster munitions from its bases in the UK. will place in the Library copies of all radiation There are no US or any other foreign cluster munition protection monitoring reports made since the contract stockpiles in the UK. commenced. [23870] NATO: European Naval Force Mr Robathan: The Nuclear Safety Infrastructure and Post Nuclear Operation and Maintenance contract between Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for Babcock Marine (Rosyth) Ltd and the Ministry of Defence if he will take steps to ensure data sharing Defence covers a three year period from April 2010 to between the NATO Maritime Force and the European March 2013. The value of this contract is approximately Naval Force. [23450] £11 million. The contract requires that the company report all Mr Gerald Howarth: The UK Government continue radiological occurrences or unplanned nuclear events at actively to encourage member states of NATO and the Rosyth to the Department. This is achieved through EU to ensure that the data generated by present and routine contract management and reporting processes. future maritime sensors and systems are shared by all Additionally there is a bi-annual, Regulatory Interface relevant maritime forces. Forum attended by the MOD and Babcock Marine (Rosyth) Ltd, where any such occurrences would be Navy: Accidents discussed. Rosyth Dockyard, which is owned and operated by Mr Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for Babcock Marine, is regulated by the Nuclear Installations Defence what records his Department keeps of Inspectorate (NII) and the Scottish Environmental collisions between Royal Navy vessels and naval vessels Protection Agency. Site Inspectors visit the Rosyth site 737W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 738W on a regular basis; details on the exact number of visits Adult Education: Fees and Charges are not held by the MOD and are a matter for Babcock Marine or the regulatory bodies. Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Quarterly monitoring reports are produced by the Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has for NII and are published by the Health and Safety the future level of fees for those aged over 25 years in Executive. respect of a first full level 2 course; and if he will make a statement. [24281] Royal Navy: Manpower Mr Hayes: The spending review announcement on Gemma Doyle: To ask the Secretary of State for 20 October 2010 set out the need for a rebalancing of Defence what assessment he has made of the likely investment from public spending towards greater effects on (a) his Department’s operations at contributions from individuals and employers who benefit Kentigern House in Glasgow and (b) HMNB Clyde of most and can afford to pay. The skills strategy and the proposed reduction by 25,000 in the number of his associated investment strategy for post-19 further education Department’s staff by 2015. [19715] (FE) and skills, to be published later this autumn, will confirm our funding strategy for the spending review Mr Robathan: The Strategic Defence and Security period, including the future investment in older learners. Review stated that the Ministry of Defence civil service In the 2010/11 academic year the public funding paid would decrease by 25,000 as the requirement for civilian to FE colleges and training organisations for learners support decreases in line with the development of new who are not eligible for full funding assumes a force structures, restructuring of defence capabilities, 50% contribution from the learner with the remainder rationalisation of the defence estate and realisation of funded by Government. other non-front line savings. While no decisions have FE colleges and training organisations are autonomous been taken on where those changes will be made, and are responsible for setting their own fees policy. detailed proposals to deliver the changes will be brought forward in consultation with the Department’s trade AgustaWestland: Finance unions as quickly as possible as further work is taken forward. Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills whether the financial assistance to AgustaWestland announced in the Comprehensive Spending Review has been approved by the BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Shareholder Executive. [23551]

Adult Education Mr Davey [holding answer 12 November 2010]: The Shareholder Executive is one of the bodies responsible Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for for providing advice to Ministers on the proposed terms Business, Innovation and Skills how many people have of government financial assistance. The Shareholder taken up a free training place for a first full level 2 Executive is not responsible for approving decisions to qualification for those aged over 25 years in each of the provide financial assistance; these decisions are taken by Ministers in the context of the spending review. The last five years. [24282] Government are currently in discussions with Mr Hayes: The following table shows the number of AgustaWestland regarding the proposed terms of further education courses in each academic year where Government financial assistance to the company, and learners aged 25 or over are recorded as receiving fee the Shareholder Executive is involved in these discussions. remission due to the learner having a full level 2 entitlement. Details of the proposed terms under discussion cannot be disclosed as they are subject to negotiations and are Courses for learners aged 25 or over that received fee remission due to commercially sensitive. a full level 2 entitlement Further education/ Animation: Higher Education learner responsive Train to Gain

2004/05 4,700 1— Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for 2005/06 27,600 1— Business, Innovation and Skills whether animation 2006/07 53,400 1— degrees will be classified as degrees in a science, 2007/08 58,100 1— technology, engineering and mathematics subject for 2008/09 33,700 501,700 the purpose of the Government’s proposed higher [24150] 1 This field was added to the employer responsive data collection from education funding changes. 2008/09, and hence data are not available for Train to Gain for earlier years. Mr Hayes: We will set out our proposals for the Notes: future definition and funding treatment of priority 1. Numbers have been rounded to the nearest hundred. subjects in the forthcoming higher education White 2. Figures for 2008/09 are not directly comparable with earlier years due to a change in funding methodology. Paper. 3. Further education learners were returned on the FE ILR until Apprentices 2007/08, and on the LR ILR from 2008/09. 4. Age is based on age at the start of the academic year. Figures include a small number of learners with unknown age. Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Source: Business, Innovation and Skills what long-term role he FE/LR ad ER Individualised Learner Record. plans for (a) apprenticeship training associations and 739W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 740W

(b) group training associations in respect of the new public listing status which comprise the 6 per cent. of apprenticeship places announced in the comprehensive high growth business referred to in his Department’s spending review; and if he will make a statement. document, Backing small business. [24481] [24552] Mr Prisk: BIS has not made an estimate of the Mr Hayes: The increased funding announced in the number of companies in each sector, of each size band, comprehensive spending review is participation funding and of each public listing status which comprise the for adult apprenticeship training. This will mean that 6% high growth businesses. we will have in place sufficient funding for 75,000 more However, further detail about this group of businesses adult apprenticeship places than the previous Government identified as high growth is included in the research were providing. report published by NESTA titled “Measuring Business The Skills Funding Agency (SFA) allocates participation Growth”, available at funding to colleges and providers to reflect the pattern http://www.nesta.org.uk/publications/reports/assets/features/ of employer demand and funding is moved in year to measuring_business_growth reflect local need. We have no plans to target this funding at specific types of provider. Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has made Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for an estimate of the number of (a) restructurings and Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has (b) insolvencies of small and medium-sized enterprises made of the apprenticeship training associations pilot likely to occur in the next 12 months. [24524] schemes funded by the Skills Funding Agency. [24553] Mr Davey: Official Statistics covering corporate Mr Hayes: The Apprenticeship Training Agency (ATA) restructurings are not compiled and no assessment has model is being piloted and progress will be monitored been made of numbers expected in the next 12 months. by the National Apprenticeship Service (NAS). Early The data sources used to compile the Insolvency evidence from the pilots is positive and they are proving Service’s corporate insolvency statistics do not contain effective in encouraging additional smaller employers the necessary information from which small and medium- to take on apprentices for the first time. sized firms may be separately identified. The Insolvency The ATAs contracts started in autumn 2009 and after Service has not made any assessment of the numbers of an initial development phase they began recruiting in insolvencies among small and medium-sized enterprises early 2010. The National Apprenticeship Service will in the next 12 months. review the 12 pilots in 2011. An ATA code of practice is currently being developed Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for by the NAS and tested with the ATA pilot organisations. Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to his This will test the theory of the model against the actual Department’s document Backing small business, what delivery and also give us an indication of how they are level of per annum proportional growth his working in practice. Department classifies as transformational. [24543]

Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Prisk: The Department for Business, Innovation Business, Innovation and Skills how many people and Skills will set out its plans for business improvement participated in an apprentice scheme funded by his in more detail shortly. Department between 2005 and 2010. [24682] Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hayes: The following shows the number of Business, Innovation and Skills how much funding he apprenticeship starts in England from 2004/05 to 2008/09, plans to allocate for the proposed network of growth the latest year for which final data are available. hubs, referred to in his Department’s document Apprenticeship programme starts, 2004/05 to 2008/09 Backing small business, in the comprehensive spending Academic year Number of starts review period; and whether funding for those hubs will be drawn from the same budget as that allocated for the 2004/05 189,000 proposed network of technology and innovation 2005/06 175,000 centres. [24544] 2006/07 184,400 2007/08 224,800 2008/09 239,900 Mr Prisk: At least £200 million will be made available Notes: for technology and innovation centres over the course 1. All figures are rounded to the nearest 100. of the spending review period. Funding allocations for 2. Information on the number of apprenticeship starts is published in a growth hubs are still to be determined as part of the quarterly statistical first release (SFR). The latest SFR was published on 16 November: process of prioritising activity in line with the spending http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current review settlement. The Government will confirm funding Source: once this process is complete. Individualised Learner Record Business Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what his policy is on Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for the inclusion of a country-by-country financial Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has reporting standard in the Organisation for Economic made of the number of companies (a) in each industry Co-operation and Development guidelines for sector, (b) of each workforce size and (c) of each multinational companies. [24609] 741W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 742W

Mr Davey: The Government are seeking to address Mr Prisk: European Regional Development Fund and take forward issues relating to taxation and disclosure allocations to each of the English regions for the period during the current negotiations to update the OECD 2007-13 have already been made and are shown in the Guidelines for Multinational Enterprises. following table. These allocations may be spent up until The OECD’s Task Force on Tax and Development, is end 2015. currently conducting a detailed examination of the 2007-13 ERDF allocations issue of country-by-country reporting. This task force Million is expected to report within a year. ¤£1

Consumer Focus England North West 756 651 Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Yorkshire and 584 503 Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has Humber made of the likely effects on the workload of Citizens North East 376 324 Advice of his decision to abolish Consumer Focus and East Midlands 268 231 transfer its functions to that body. [24444] West Midlands 400 345 Mr Davey: On 14 October, my right hon. Friend the East of England 111 96 Secretary of State for Business Innovation and Skills London 182 157 (BIS) announced changes to the UK Consumer and South East 24 20 Competition bodies: South West Comp 125 107 http://www.bis.gov.uk/policies/consumer-issues Cornwall and Isles 458 395 of Scilly In that statement he outlined proposals including the Total England 3,283 2,829 transfer of the functions of Consumer Focus to the 1 national bodies for the Citizens Advice service in England Approximate values. and Wales and in Scotland. BIS are now discussing implementation with the Executives consumer bodies including Citizens Advice and Citizens Advice Scotland and with the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland Governments. As also announced by my right Mrs Grant: To ask the Secretary of State for hon. Friend the Secretary of State, BIS will consult Business, Innovation and Skills if he will estimate the publicly on the main elements of the proposals in the number of small and medium-sized enterprises run by (a) (b) new year. women and men in England and Wales. [24569] Cumbria University: Finance Mr Prisk: BIS estimate that there were 4,381,000 Tony Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for small and medium-sized enterprises in England and Business, Innovation and Skills if he will allocate Wales at the start of 2009. Of these, BIS currently funding to the university of Cumbria to enable that estimate that 14.3% (630,000) were majority-led by university to extend its programme of courses offered women, 61.6% (2,697,000) were majority-led by men off its established campus facilities in West Cumbria. and 24% (1,051,000) were equally led by men and [24152] women. Mr Hayes: Decisions on the allocation of funding to individual institutions are made by the Higher Education Green Investment Bank Funding Council for England (HEFCE) within the limits set by the overall level of funding made available by the Department. Karl Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has EU Grants and Loans made of the funding the Green Investment Bank will attract in the next five years. [23444] Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions Mr Prisk: I refer the hon. Member to the Chancellor’s he has had with the European Commission on the spending review statement of 20 October 2010, Official disbursement of European Regional Development Report, column 949. Fund money through regional development agencies. [24355] As the Chancellor has announced, we will be funding the Green Investment Bank (GIB) from £1 billion of Mr Prisk: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of departmental budgets, as well as from significant proceeds State has had no recent discussions with the European from the sale of Government’s assets. Commission on the disbursement of European Regional While it would not be appropriate to speculate on the Development Fund money through regional development timing of asset sales, the use of these proceeds should agencies. provide opportunities for additional funding to be available Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for over the next five years. Business, Innovation and Skills how much funding Furthermore, we are committed to working with the from the European Regional Development Fund he private sector to establish a GIB that is effective in plans to allocate to the English regions in the period mobilising additional private sector investment into from 2010 to 2015. [24356] green infrastructure projects. 743W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 744W

Higher Education Mr Hayes: The information is in the following table. Applicants who were not accepted for entry will Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for include: individuals who did not receive any offer; Business, Innovation and Skills what degrees offered at individuals who received an offer (conditional or universities are classified as science, technology, unconditional) but decided not to go to university; engineering and mathematics subjects. [24149] individuals who received a conditional offer and fail to meet the specific conditions (e.g. they do not achieve Mr Hayes: There is no formal, single classification certain grades); and individuals who decided to withdraw covering the broad grouping of subjects that typically from the UCAS system. includes Science, Technology, Engineering, and Applicants and accepted applicants to full-time undergraduate courses in UK Mathematics (STEM). However, the Department for HEIs from Bexleyheath and Crayford constituency and the London borough of Business, Innovation and Skills has traditionally taken Bexley, 2010 the view that STEM subjects are covered by groups Applicants Accepted applicants A-K of the Joint Academic Coding System (JACS). Bexleyheath and 916 644 The high-level subject groups in the JACS are: Crayford constituency London borough of 2,440 1,710 Subject Bexley Source: A Medicine and Dentistry UCAS provisional end of year data (represents applicants and accepted applicants at 13 October 2010; end of year data will be available from 20 B Subjects allied to Medicine January 2011 C Biological Sciences D Veterinary Sciences, Agriculture and related subjects Higher Education: Finance F Physical Sciences G Mathematical and Computer Sciences Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for H Engineering Business, Innovation and Skills what representations he J Technologies has received from universities on the proposed K Architecture, Building and Planning reduction in the level of public funding of universities. L Social studies [23601] MLaw N Business and Administrative studies Mr Hayes: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of P Mass Communications and Documentation State and ministerial colleagues have received representations Q Linguistics, Classics and related subjects from all of the higher education representative bodies R European Languages, Literature and related subjects and many individual institutions on the future of higher T Eastern, Asiatic, African, American and Australasian Languages, education funding. My colleagues and I hold regular Literature and related subjects meetings with such organisations. V Historical and Philosophical studies W Creative Arts and Design Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for X Education Business, Innovation and Skills what modelling his Full codings can be found at: Department has undertaken for the purposes of its http://www.hesa.ac.uk/dox/jacs/JACS_complete.pdf impact assessment of the proposed reduction in teaching grants. [23602] Higher Education Innovation Fund Mr Hayes: The Government will publish a full impact assessment when we put formal proposals to Parliament Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for for amending the legislation that underpins higher education Business, Innovation and Skills what projects the funding and student support. The Government will Higher Education Innovation Fund is assisting in undertake a further impact assessment of any wider 2010-11; and if he will make a statement. [23613] changes proposed as a result of a Higher Education White Paper, and this will be published alongside the Mr Hayes: The Higher Education Funding Council White Paper in the winter. for England (HEFCE) allocates Higher Education Innovation Funding (HEIF) on a formulaic basis to all Higher Education: Private Sector higher education institutions in England. These institutions decide which activities to undertake in accordance with their individual strategies. The current strategies are Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for available on the Institute for Knowledge Transfer’s Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has website at: made of the potential role for private sector providers of higher education following the implementation of www.ikt.org.uk proposed reforms to the higher education system. [24523] Higher Education: Bexley Mr Hayes: The Government want to make it easier Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for for new providers who can offer excellent teaching and Business, Innovation and Skills how many people in a high-quality experience for students to enter the higher (a) Bexleyheath and Crayford constituency and (b) education sector. However, this is one of a number of the London Borough of Bexley applied for a university institutional issues in the wake of Lord Browne’s place in the last 12 months; and how many of those independent review of higher education and student were successful. [23686] finance which requires thorough debate and consultation. 745W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 746W

We intend therefore to publish a Higher Education We will also encourage the Technology and Innovation White Paper with proposals to which experts from the Centres to undertake appropriate outreach activities sector can react, leading to a Higher Education Bill. with local communities and schools.

Innovation Minimum Wage

Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will make Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has for assistance available for businesses in the same sector as future changes to the level of the minimum wage. each of his proposed innovation centres which are not [24213] located in the same region as the centre. [23225] Mr Davey: The coalition agreement states that Mr Hayes: The proposed technology and innovation Government supports the national minimum wage (NMW) centres will be national in scope and accessed by businesses because of the protection it gives low income workers in the same sector regardless of location. and the incentives to work it provides. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for The independent Low Pay Commission advises Business, Innovation and Skills on what date he expects Government on NMW issues and makes recommendations each of his proposed innovation centres to be (a) built on the rates each year. The LPC will report to Government and (b) in operation. [23227] again in February 2011. The Government will make decisions on the level of the NMW based on the LPC’s Mr Hayes: The network of Technology and Innovation recommendations. Centres will further develop existing regional development agency (RDA) funded centres which are excellent and Myasthenia Gravis: Research establish a limited number of new centres. New centres will be established on a ’needs for basis’ Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for in the context of the Technology Strategy Board’s overall Business, Innovation and Skills what funding his programme of work, and we cannot therefore specify Department allocated for research relating to dates on which they will be built and in operation at this myasthenia gravis in (a) 2010-11 and (b) each of the stage. However, the Technology Strategy Board will previous three years. [23580] identify its strategic priorities for the upcoming comprehensive spending review (CSR) period and the areas for which it will assess the need for new centres Mr Hayes: The Medical Research Council (MRC) is through more detailed work in partnership with industry, one of the main agencies through which the Government academe and stakeholders, including wider government, support medical and clinical research. in April 2011. In the last three years, MRC expenditure on research relating to myasthenia gravis was as follows: Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has assessed £ the likely requirement for non-EU nationals to work in 2007/08 214,000 his proposed innovation centres. [23239] 2008/09 323,000 Mr Hayes: The Government have always been clear 2009/10 259,000 that we will continue to allow the brightest and the best Figures for 2010/11 are not yet available. to come to the UK, including top scientists and researchers. Centres may benefit from recruiting non-EU nationals to meet the highly specialised skills requirements they Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for will have. This will be a matter for individual centres, Business, Innovation and Skills how much funding his although they will have to work within the framework Department plans to provide for research relating to of rules regulating non-EU migration. myasthenia gravis in each of the next three financial years. [23581] Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what plans he has Mr Hayes: The Medical Research Council (MRC) is for his proposed innovation centres to engage with (a) one of the main agencies through which the Government primary schools, (b) secondary schools and (c) support medical and clinical research. In keeping with further education colleges; [23240] the Haldane principle, prioritisation of an individual (2) whether there will be a duty on his proposed research council’s spending within its allocation is not a innovation centres to undertake community outreach decision for Ministers. The MRC will make decisions work. [23241] on its priorities once its allocation is clear. The MRC funds investigator-led research in response- Mr Hayes: We expect the Technology and Innovation mode and encourages research proposals from the academic Centres to engage formally with further education colleges, community and always welcomes high quality applications and utilise schemes such as Knowledge Transfer for support into any aspect of human health and these partnerships, where appropriate, to ensure the relevant are judged in open competition with other demands on flow of people and skills that will help business exploit funding. Awards are made according to their scientific new and emerging technologies. quality and importance to human health. 747W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 748W

New Businesses One NorthEast: Assets

Mrs Grant: To ask the Secretary of State for Pat Glass: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Business, Innovation and Skills if he will estimate the Innovation and Skills what plans he has for the number of new businesses started by (a) men and (b) properties owned by One NorthEast after its closure. women in England in the last 12 months. [24570] [23355]

Mr Prisk: The Department for Business, Innovation Mr Prisk: As set out in the White Paper on local and Skills do not produce estimates of the number of growth, RDA assets and liabilities will be disposed of in new businesses started by men and women. line with a clear set of principles which include a key Official data on business start-ups and closures are aim of achieving the best possible outcome for the published by the Office for National Statistics in the region consistent with achieving value to the public ‘Business Demography’ publication. However, since gender purse. is not collected on the administrative systems used to produce this data, it is not possible to provide this Royal Mail information by gender. Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, News International Innovation and Skills what estimate he has made of the number of small and medium-sized enterprises with Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for contracts to supply goods and services to Royal Mail; Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer what the average monetary value of such contracts is in of 14 October 2010, Official Report, column 367W, on a 12 month period; and how much notice such News International, whether (a) he and (b) the suppliers will receive of implementation of the Minister for Culture, Communications and Creative outcomes of the review of supplier payment terms. Industries discussed with (i) James Murdoch and (ii) [23916] Rebekah Brooks (A) the Metropolitan Police’s investigation on telephone hacking and blagging and Mr Davey: Royal Mail’s supplier contracts are an (B) News Corporation’s bid for BSkyB; and if he will operational matter for the company. make a statement. [21844] I have therefore asked the chief executive of Royal Mail, Moya Greene, to respond directly to the hon. Mr Vaizey [holding answer 4 November 2010]: The Member and a copy of her reply will be placed in the Secretary of State for Business Innovation and Skills House Libraries. had a short introductory telephone conversation with James Murdoch on 15 July during which the News Corporation bid for BSkyB was raised. They did not Science: Finance discuss the Metropolitan police’s investigation on telephone hacking. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for In my role as a joint BIS/DCMS Minister, I met Business, Innovation and Skills what the change in the Rebekah Brooks on 12 July. During this meeting neither science budget was in (a) cash and (b) real terms News Corporation’s bid for BSkyB, nor the Metropolitan between 2002 and 2008. [24532] police’s investigation on telephone hacking were discussed. Mr Hayes: The Science and Research Budget increased Office for Fair Access from £2.1 billion in 2002-03 to £3.7 billion in 2008-09. (a) This is a change of £1.6 billion in cash terms. Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for (b) This is a change of £1.2 billion in real terms. Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many people were employed in the Office for Fair Access in (a) Space Technology 2008, (b) 2009 and (c) 2010; [23595] (2) what funding he plans to allocate to the Office for Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Fair Access to take account of his Department’s Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his proposed changes to higher education funding in each Department plans to take to increase the number of year between 2010 and 2015; [23600] business start-ups in the space sector. [23772] (3) how many staff he expects the Office for Fair Access to employ in each year between 2011 and 2015. Mr Hayes: This Department through the Science and [23603] Technology Facilities Council, Technology Strategy Board and the UK Space Agency will be opening a business Mr Hayes: The Office for Fair Access employed four incubation centre at Harwell on the 2 December 2010 people including the Director in 2008, 2009 and 2010. jointly with the European Space Agency. This aims to Staffing for future years will be a matter for the Director create 10 new businesses a year across the UK. to determine based on the resource allocated to him. OFFA’s budget for 2010-11 was £464,000. Allocations Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for for future years will be announced in due course. Business, Innovation and Skills what funding he The future status and role of OFFA is currently expects his Department to provide to businesses in the under review and we will bring forward proposals in the space sector in each year of the Spending Review forthcoming Higher Education White Paper. period. [23773] 749W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 750W

Mr Hayes: The budget for the space sector in each made of research and development spending in the year of the spending review is still under finalisation space sector in each year of the Spending Review within the Department for Business, Innovation and period. [23832] Skills. The final decision will be taken in the light of the overall departmental budget allocations and should be Mr Hayes: The budget for the space sector in each agreed before the end of the year. year of the spending review is still under finalisation within the Department for Business, Innovation and Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Skills. The final decision will be taken in the light of the Business, Innovation and Skills if he will identify those overall departmental budget allocations and should be regions most likely to host the predicted growth in the agreed before the end of the year. space industry. [23774] Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hayes: The recent survey of the size and health of Business, Innovation and Skills what funding his the UK Space Industry suggests that the majority of Department plans to provide to support the satellite companies are based in the South East of England, and manufacturing industry in 2010-11. [23833] so in the immediate future growth is therefore most likely to occur in this area. Companies are also beginning Mr Hayes: This Department estimates that approximately to grow in other parts of the country and I would £230m will be paid in contributions to the European anticipate that in the longer term growth will take place Space Agency in 2010/11. This accounts for the majority in other regions, even if from a small baseline. of the UK’s space spend and we do not keep specific breakdowns on how much goes directly to satellite Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for manufacturing. Within the industry, satellite manufacturing Business, Innovation and Skills what his policy is on accounts for about 50-60% of total turnover. the establishment of a national Earth observation service to acquire images on behalf of Government Students: Fees and Charges Departments. [23775] Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hayes: In 2010 an Industry led Innovation Growth Business, Innovation and Skills if he will assess the Strategy report recommended that the UK establish a merits of providing a facility for forgivable loans for national Earth observation data service. In response medical students after the rise in the cap on tuition fees. this Department, through the UK Space Agency, is [24533] supporting a review of the Government’s need for data, including imagery data, from space. This will estimate Mr Hayes: Currently full-time undergraduate medical the size and nature of the public sector demand for students in England can apply for the same student Earth observation services now and into the future. The support from Student Finance England as other full-time review will determine whether cost efficiencies and wealth undergraduates for the first four years of their course. creation can be derived from a strategic government From year five onwards the Department of Health pay procurement exercise creating a national Earth observation the tuition fee in full and provide a means-tested bursary service. On the basis of this work, the final Government in addition to a reduced level maintenance loan and position will be taken during 2011 or 2012. supplementary grants from Student Finance England. Shared arrangements are also in place for students Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for studying Medicine as a second undergraduate degree Business, Innovation and Skills what funding his and for those on graduate entry courses. Department provides to private companies working in The Government have announced its broad plans for the space sector for testing technology in orbit. [23776] funding higher education in an oral statement on Wednesday 3 November. We will discuss the impact on Mr Hayes: The exact level of funding is determined medical students with the Department of Health, who by the quality of relevant proposals in the all areas of share responsibility for providing student support for space technology. At present we have one project for a medical students. small satellite and a nano satellite to test technology in orbit, and the estimated cost to HMG is approximately Students: Finance £4 million. In addition individual payloads will be provided through a competition. Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for made of the likely effect of his proposed changes to Business, Innovation and Skills what alterations his student funding arrangements on the ability of Department has made to the public subsidies available graduates to take on further loans incur on leaving to private businesses involved in the space sector since university. [23406] 11 May 2010. [23777] Mr Hayes: Income contingent student loan borrowers Mr Hayes: The Department offers no direct public are not required to pay back their loan until the April subsidies to companies in the space industry. In term of after they finish their course. Repayments are based on space expenditure this Department has initiated no 9% of income above the threshold and linked directly to alterations to the plans in place on 11 May 2010. a borrower’s income and not the size of their loan. The Council for Mortgage Lenders advise that a Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for student loan is very unlikely to materially impact on an Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has individual’s ability to get a mortgage. However, any 751W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 752W reduction in net income may result in a commensurate care. Therefore we have also provided information on reduction in the amount a mortgage lender is willing to the median (defined as the middle value of data sorted lend. Our proposal to increase the repayment threshold from lowest to highest) length of time spent in care. from £15,000 to £21,000 will increase the amount of net Both the mean and median time spent in care for income available to borrowers because monthly repayments children who were looked after at 31 March 2010 are will fall as a result. shown in the following table. These figures relate to the A student’s ability to obtain a loan, such as a small child’s latest period of care and relate to the latest business loan will depend on the bank or institution period for which information is available. approached, and their terms and conditions. Children looked after at 31 March by the average length of time in care, year Supermarkets: Ombudsman ending 31 March 2010. Coverage: England Number Years Months Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his Mean duration of time in care 3 5 Department is taking to implement the proposal in the Median duration of time in care 2 0 coalition agreement to establish a grocery market Source: SSDA 903 ombudsman. [24673] Departmental Chief Scientific Advisers Mr Davey: The coalition agreement commits the Government to introduce the Groceries Code Adjudicator (GCA). A consultation on the GCA took place between Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for 5 February and 30 April 2010. The Government response Education on how many occasions each Minister in his of 3 August set out how we would take this body Department has met his Department’s chief scientific forward officer since 6 May 2010. [15442] http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/business-law/docs/ competition-matters/10-1011-groceries-supply-code-practice- Tim Loughton: The Department for Education’s chief government-response.pdf scientific adviser has met the Secretary of State on two We now have approval to publish a draft Bill in the occasions since 6 May 2010. During the same period first Session of this Parliament. This will be undertaken the Minister of State for Schools has met her on one as soon as parliamentary time allows. occasion; both the Minister of State for Children and Families, and the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools have met her twice; and I have met her on one occasion. SOLICITOR-GENERAL Revenue and Customs Prosecutions Office Departmental Public Expenditure

Mr Umunna: To ask the Solicitor-General what his Dr Phillip Lee: To ask the Secretary of State for most recent assessment is of the effectiveness of the Education what mechanisms are in place to ensure that HM Revenue and Customs Prosecutions Office in his Department’s decisions on regional funding carrying out its functions. [24266] allocations are based on the most recent available population data. [20692] The Solicitor-General [holding answer 15 November 2010]: The Revenue and Customs Prosecution Office Mr Gibb: Most funding from the Department is (RCPO) merged with the Crown Prosecution Service on given to either local authorities or schools. Most education 1 January 2010. Her Majesty’s Crown Prosecution Service funding is allocated using the number of pupils in Inspectorate’s (HMCPSI) report of July 2009 reported school in the January prior to the start of the financial favourably on RCPO performance. The report concluded year. The formulae used to distribute resources for that RCPO has succeeded in restoring public and judicial children, families and young people’s services takes confidence in customs prosecutions. account of latest available population estimates produced by the Office for National Statistics.

EDUCATION Education Maintenance Allowance Children In Care Sir Peter Soulsby: To ask the Secretary of State for Paul Goggins: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many young people in each local Education what the average time spent in care by authority ward in Leicester South constituency receive looked-after children was in the latest period for which education maintenance allowance. [22317] figures are available. [22736] Mr Gibb: This is a matter for the Young People’s Tim Loughton [holding answer 10 November 2010]: Learning Agency (YPLA) who operate the education The average of any set of data is usually taken to be the maintenance allowance for the Department for Education. mean. However in this case the mean length of time Peter Lauener the YPLA’s chief executive, will write to spent in care is heavily influenced by children who have the hon. Member for Leicester South with the information spent a long period of their lives in care, around 4,600 requested and a copy of his reply will be placed in the looked after children have spent more than 10 years in Libraries of both Houses. 753W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 754W

Education Maintenance Allowance: Rotherham Mr Gibb: Under the Academies Act 2010, the Academy Trusts of Free Schools and Academies will be deemed Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for as exempt charities from January 2011. Where Academy Education how many students resident in Rotherham Trusts receive individual donations, there is no requirement will no longer receive education maintenance in charity law or in the Charity Commission’s Statement allowance once it ends. [21609] of Recommended Practice for them to disclose the names of individual donors or the amount of individual Mr Gibb: This is a matter for the Young People’s donations. Learning Agency (YPLA) who operate the education The Academies Act 2010 included a provision that maintenance allowance for the Department for Education. extends the Freedom of Information Act to all Academy Peter Lauener the YPLA’s chief executive, will write to Trusts, including those of Free Schools. The FOI Act the right hon. Member with the information requested will apply to al Academy Trusts from January 2011, and a copy of his reply will be placed in the Libraries of including the Academy Trusts of Free Schools. both Houses. Local Safeguarding Children Boards Education: Assessments Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what his policy is on the independence from Education whether his Department has (a) local agencies of the chair of a local safeguarding commissioned and (b) evaluated research on the children board. [21678] effects of rewarding pupils for effort rather than talent. [23009] Tim Loughton: The Government believe that the chair should be someone independent of the local agencies so Tim Loughton: The Department has analysed research that the local safeguarding children board can exercise evidence on the effects of the use of rewards and its local challenge function effectively. It is expected that incentives on pupils’ performance. The Department has all local safeguarding children boards will work towards not commissioned any external research on the topic. this over time. Free School Meals As part of her review of child protection, Professor Eileen Munro will consider the role of local safeguarding children boards and how they can become more effective Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for in their leadership role in multi-agency learning about Education how many children in each London child protection. Professor Munro’s final report is due borough were eligible for free school meals on the latest in April 2011 and the Government look forward to date for which figures are available. [22384] receiving her recommendations. Mr Gibb: The latest information on free school meal Mental Health: Curriculum eligibility can be found in tables 11a, 11b and 11c of the Statistical First Release ’Schools, Pupils and their Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Characteristics: January 2010’ which can be found at: Education (1) what support his Department provides http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000925/ for the inclusion of mental health education within the index.shtml school curriculum; and if he will make a statement; Free Schools [21865] (2) if he will ensure that mental health education is Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for provided within the school curriculum; and if he will Education what plans he has to publish the names of make a statement. [21864] the promoters of each bid to establish a free school. [21472] Mr Gibb: Currently mental health education is included in the non-statutory programmes of study for Personal, Mr Gibb: The names of the first 16 Free School Social, Health and Economic (PSHE) education. This proposals that have been approved to progress to the covers learning about the characteristics of emotional business case and plan stage can be found on the and mental health, and the causes, symptoms and Department’s website at: treatments of some mental and emotional health disorders. Pupils should be taught how physical, mental and emotional http://www.education.gov.uk/inthenews/inthenews/a0064280/ written-ministerial-statement-relating-to-new-free-school- health affects our ability to lead fulfilling lives. The proposals programmes of study give teachers a framework for teaching, creating scope to tailor the subject to meet the As other proposals are approved to progress to the needs of their students. business case and plan stage their details will be published on the Department’s website. The Department does not provide specific support to schools for the inclusion of mental health education Free Schools: Freedom of Information within the curriculum. However, schools usually seek support from local partners and other organisations to Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for help them to teach about mental health. Education what plans he has to publish the names of We want all young people to benefit from high quality donors to free schools; and whether such schools will PSHE and are considering how best to ensure this while be classified as public authorities for the purposes of retaining discretion for schools to decide how to approach the Freedom of Information Act 2000. [21471] often sensitive issues. 755W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 756W

Public Expenditure: Greater London The Country and Regional Analysis is a yearly exercise that departments participate in that allocates departmental spending to regions based on who benefits from that David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for spending, not necessarily on where the spending takes Education what his Department’s capital expenditure place. per head was in (a) London and (b) the North West in The most recent exercise culminated in the publication each of the last five years. [21451] of the Public expenditure Statistical Analyses Command Paper (PESA 2010, CM 7890). Tim Loughton: Based on information compiled by the Department for the most recent Country and Regional David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for Analysis exercise the expenditure per head for these two Education how much and what proportion of his regions is as follows: Department’s capital expenditure was allocated to (a) London and (b) the North West in each of the last five Outturn Plans financial years. [21465] Region 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 Tim Loughton: Based on information compiled by London 125.67 123.80 133.65 168.35 207.00 the Department for the most recent Country and Regional North 95.61 95.14 101.98 122.12 150.49 Analysis exercise the expenditure per head for these two West regions is as follows:

Outturn Plans 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 Region £ million % £ million % £ million % £ million % £ million %

London 7.456 14.77 7.512 14.80 7.557 14.79 7.621 14.80 7.686 14.81 North West 6.840 13.55 6.853 13.50 6.864 13.43 6.911 13.42 6.944 13.38

The Country and Regional Analysis is a yearly exercise Schools: Standards that Departments participate in that allocates departmental spending to regions based on who benefits from that Dan Rogerson: To ask the Secretary of State for spending, not necessarily on where the spending takes Education which local authority areas are listed by place. Ofsted as having been in special measures for more The most recent exercise culminated in the publication than a year. [22620] of the Public expenditure Statistical Analyses Command Paper (PESA 2010, CM 7890). Tim Loughton [holding answer 8 November 2010]: Schools: Admissions Doncaster and Haringey local authorities were judged to be in the lowest rating category in Ofsted’s annual assessment of children’s services for 2008 and 2009, the Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for latest years for which ratings have been published. Education what estimate he has made of the number of children in each local education authority area without (a) a primary and (b) a secondary school place (i) on Schools: Warrington 31 March 2010 and (ii) at the beginning of the 2010-11 school year. [21041] Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what estimate he has made of (a) the Mr Gibb: The provision of sufficient school places is number of schools in Warrington North constituency the statutory responsibility of local authorities. Every which will be eligible for the pupil premium and (b) the child of statutory school age must be provided with a monetary value of that premium to be made to each place. school in 2011-12. [19909] We are aware that in some areas there is exceptional growth in demand for pupil places, particularly for Mr Gibb: On 26 July 2010 we launched the Consultation primary pupils. The Secretary of State has said that on school funding 2011-12: Introducing a pupil premium. meeting the demand for additional places will be priority This set out the proposed methodology for allocating for investment over the spending review period. such a premium, including options on the best deprivation indicator. The consultation ended on 18 October 2010 Schools: Anti-Semitism and we are now considering over 700 responses that we have received. Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for A statement of the outcome will be made shortly. Education what research his Department has (a) undertaken and (b) evaluated on the causes of Special Educational Needs anti-Semitism in schools in each of the last three years. [22003] Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Tim Loughton: No research on the causes of anti- Education what steps he is taking to reduce the Semitism in schools has been undertaken nor evaluated attainment gap between pupils (a) with and (b) by the Department in the last three years. without special educational needs. [22921] 757W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 758W

Sarah Teather [holding answer 9 November 2010]: Members and Members’ Staff: National Insurance The attainment gap between those with special education Contributions needs and their peers is too wide. We want to close this gap and ensure that young people with special educational Bob Russell: To ask the hon. Member for fulfil their potential. The Educational White Paper and Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for the SEN Green Paper will set out proposals to improve the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, outcomes for these young people. what measures the Independent Parliamentary Teaching: Fireworks Standards Authority has in place to ensure that the National Insurance contributions in respect of (a) hon. Members and (b) staff of hon. Members are paid Mr Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State on the correct dates so as to ensure that there is no for Education what teaching is provided to children on break in each individual’s record of contributions; and the (a) safe use of and (b) risks associated with if he will make a statement. [23057] fireworks. [22290] Mr Gibb: Schools can choose to cover these issues as Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls a part of safety education. As fireworks are used within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary increasingly, not only for the traditional ‘Firework Night’ Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. on 5 November, but also to celebrate festivals such as Letter from Andrew McDonald: Diwali and the Chinese new year, their safe use is of As Interim Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary great importance. However, we leave it to the professional Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary judgement of teachers to choose whether and how to Question asking what measures the Independent Parliamentary teach this aspect of risk management. Standards Authority has in place to ensure that the National Insurance contributions in respect of (a) hon. Members and (b) The Community and Home section of the Directgov staff of hon. Members are paid on the correct dates so as to website: ensure that there is no break in each individual’s record of http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/index.htm contributions; and if he will make a statement. is a good resource for teachers and parents, who can Deductions for National Insurance contributions for MPs and raise children’s awareness of risks and how to manage their staff are deducted on a monthly basis through payroll. them. Month-end reconciliations happen to ensure deductions are correct and payment to the National Insurance Contributions Office (NICO) take place before the monthly cut-off date. From September, monthly reports have been run to ensure that all individuals have INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY a table letter and that no individuals are on an X code (no STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE contributions involved), unless they are self- employed. Complaints Members: National Insurance Contributions

Helen Jones: To ask the hon. Member for Bob Russell: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, pursuant to the answer of 26 October 2010, Official what steps the Independent Parliamentary Standards Report, column 177W, whether a letter from an hon. Authority has taken to inform the Department for Member needs to be headed with the word complaint Work and Pensions of each instance where the record to be classified as a complaint by the Independent of National Insurance payments of (a) an hon. Parliamentary Standards Authority (IPSA); and what Member and (b) a number of staff of an hon. Member marking would be sufficient to satisfy the requirements has been broken as a result of a failure to contribute of IPSA complaints procedure to clearly indicate that the appropriate payment on the due date; and if he will an e-mail or letter should be treated as a complaint. make a statement. [22829] [22881] Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. Letter from Andrew McDonald: Letter from Andrew McDonald: As Interim Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary As Interim Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking what steps the Independent Parliamentary Standards Question asking pursuant to the Answer of 26 October 2010, Authority has taken to inform the Department for Work and Official Report, column 177W, whether a letter from an hon. Pensions of each instance where the record of National Insurance Member needs to be headed with the word complaint to be payments of (a) an hon. Member and (b) a number of staff of an classified as a complaint by the Independent Parliamentary Standards hon. Member has been broken as a result of a failure to contribute Authority (IPSA); and what marking would be sufficient to the appropriate payment on the due date; and if he will make a satisfy the requirements of IPSA complaints procedure to clearly statement. indicate that an e-mail or letter should be treated as a complaint. 22881 IPSA has not informed the Department for Work and Pensions of any cases where National Insurance payments of MPs or their We request that Members head complaints as such so that they staff have been broken due to incorrect contributions. In the few can be identified easily and the complaints investigation process cases where contributions were not made, for whatever reason, can be instigated. IPSA has subsequently brought these contributions up to date. As stated in the published complaints procedure, we ask that There is no reason to notify the Department for Work and letters or emails be headed “formal complaint”. Pensions. 759W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 760W

Bob Russell: To ask the hon. Member for Letter from Andrew McDonald: Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for As Interim Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary in respect of how many (a) hon. Members and (b) Question asking how many members of staff at IPSA have trade staff of hon. Members the Independent Parliamentary union membership feeds deducted from their salaries. Standards Authority has not deducted monthly IPSA currently deducts trade union fees from the salaries of National Insurance payments on the correct date; and 15 employees. how many months by contributions were affected in Travel each case. [22830] Helen Jones: To ask the hon. Member for Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. what contracts the Independent Parliamentary Letter from Andrew McDonald: Standards Authority (IPSA) has with (a) the As Interim Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary Government Car Service and (b) other transport Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary providers; what the terms are of each such contract; Question asking, in respect of how many (a) hon. Members and what the annual cost to the public purse is of each such (b) staff of hon. Members the Independent Parliamentary Standards contract; and how many IPSA staff are entitled to use Authority has not deducted monthly National Insurance payments transport provided under each such contract. [22340] on the correct date; and how many monthly contributions were affected in each case. Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls Due to an error in the data transferred from House of Commons within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary to IPSA, four people were transferred with a “table letter X” Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. which led to no contributions being collected from them. The error was rectified in September when all contributions were Letter from Andrew McDonald: brought up to date to include contributions for the missing As Interim Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary months of June, July and August. Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking what contracts the Independent Members: Security Parliamentary Standards Authority (IPSA) has with (a) the Government Car Service and (b) other transport providers; what Mark Pritchard: To ask the hon. Member for the terms are of each such contract; what the annual cost to the public purse is of each such contract; and how many IPSA staff Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for are entitled to use transport provided under each such contract. the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, Aside from where IPSA provides assistance to Members of what account the Independent Parliamentary Parliament on a case by case basis, IPSA does not hold any Standards Authority takes of the likely effects on the contracts with the Government Car Service or other transport security of the (a) family and (b) staff of hon. providers. No IPSA staff are entitled to use transport provided by Members when taking decisions on the release of the the Government Car Service or other such providers. documentation to the public. [21699]

Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. House of Commons: Housing Letter from Andrew McDonald: As Interim Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary Lorely Burt: To ask the hon. Member for Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Middlesbrough, representing the House of Commons Question asking what account the Independent Parliamentary Commission on how many nights the accommodation Standards Authority takes of the likely effects on the security of in (a) 2 Parliament Street, (b) 3 Parliament Street, (c) the (a) family and (b) staff of hon. Members when taking 2a Canon Row, (d) 2b Canon Row, (e) 4 Canon Row, decisions on the release of the documentation to the public. (f) 102 Rochester Row and (g) 22 John Islip Street was In framing our policy on what information IPSA should used in each of the last five years; and by whom. publish, we have been mindful of our duties under the Freedom [23461] of Information Act (2000) and the Data Protection Act (1998). We have carefully considered any security issues that may arise Sir Stuart Bell: I refer the hon. Lady to the answer to and have consulted the Information Commissioner’s Office and the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale), as the House authorities, including the House security adviser, on these matters. corrected on 12 November 2010, Official Report, column 3MC, which lists the post-holders using the accommodation Trade Unions in (a) to (f). This accommodation consists of six residences, privately occupied by post holders and their Helen Jones: To ask the hon. Member for families, together with sleeping facilities provided for Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for staff of the House who need to be available on the the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, parliamentary estate over prolonged periods and at how many members of staff of the Independent unpredictable times. The House does not record the Parliamentary Standards Authority have trade union number of nights on which each is used. membership fees deducted from their salaries. [21923] Occupancy figures for (g), 22 John Islip Street, which provides hostel-style sleeping accommodation for staff Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls who undertake occasional late night duties or who have within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary an approved business need to remain in London overnight Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. are as follows: 761W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 762W

Bed nights1 Specialist qualifications

2005 1,341 Professor Tim Director of National Collaborating Centre for Mental 2006 1,527 Kendall Health, Consultant Psychiatrist and Medical Director, Sheffield Health and Social Care Trust 2007 2— 2008 1,715 A group comprising systematic reviewers, an information 2009 1,652 scientist, a project manager and the Department’s policy 2010 31,212 lead is supporting the review team. The review will be 1 Bed nights denotes the number of beds occupied during the year. sent out for consultation, prior to publication, to a 2 Data incomplete. Average occupancy similar to 2008 and 2009. 3 Bed nights to end October. selected group of experts in the field, including the Meat: Slaughter Royal Colleges of Nursing and Physicians, statutory organisations and expert published researchers. Mr Knight: To ask the hon. Member for Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Middlesbrough, representing the House of Commons pursuant to the answer of 1 November 2010, Official Commission whether any (a) beef, (b) lamb and (c) Report, columns 626-27W, on abortion, whether his chicken served in House of Commons catering outlets Department’s guidance on parental involvement was slaughtered using halal methods in the last applies to other surgical procedures; and if he will 12 months; and how customers are made aware of the make a statement . [23716] slaughtering method of the meat served. [24197] Anne Milton: Legally, health professionals are able to Sir Stuart Bell: No beef or lamb purchased by the provide health advice and treatment, including surgical House of Commons is halal slaughtered unless specifically procedures, to young people aged under-16 without requested by an event organiser. However, it has recently parental knowledge or consent. However, they must come to the attention of the House of Commons Catering first establish that without that advice or treatment the Service that it has unknowingly received supplies of young person’s physical or mental health, or both, poultry slaughtered using pre-stun halal methods, and would be likely to suffer and the young person understands consequently customers have not been made aware of the treatment and advice proposed and its implications. this fact. Contracts for the supply of meat and poultry are currently in the process of being re-tendered and as The Department issued guidance on the provision of part of that process it has become apparent that the contraceptive, sexual and reproductive health services practice of supplying halal meats and poultry is widespread for young people aged under-16 in July 2004. The in the catering supply chain. The House Service is in guidance specifically covers treatment for abortion and discussions with bidders about how this can best be emphasises that managed in future. “health professionals should discuss the benefits of the young women involving her parents. In the rare cases where she cannot be persuaded to do so, every effort should be made to find another adult to provide support, for example another family HEALTH member or specialist youth worker”. Abortion Autism Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the contribution of the Parliamentary Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for Under-Secretary of State for Health on 2 November Health what assessment his Department has made of 2010, Official Report, column 900, when the the merits of a National Institute for Health and Government commissioned a systematic review of the Clinical Excellence Quality Standard in respect of evidence; who was appointed to conduct the review and autism. [23942] what relevant specialist qualifications each such Paul Burstow: The case for developing a Quality appointee holds; and if he will make it his policy to Standard for autism will be considered as part of work include persons in the review who have wide knowledge to commission a comprehensive library of such Standards or experience in (a) law, (b) social work, (c) from the National Institute for Health and Clinical philosophy, (d) religion, (e) medicine and (f) science. Excellence (NICE), in line with plans set out in the [23715] White Paper Equity and Excellence: Liberating the Anne Milton: The review of induced abortion and NHS. mental health was commissioned in January 2010 and is NICE is already developing clinical guidelines on being led by the Royal College of Psychiatrists. Information autism: one for children and young people with autism, on membership of the review team is shown in the scheduled to be published in September 2011, and one following table. for adults with autism, scheduled to be published in July 2012. Specialist qualifications Autism: Health Services Dr Roch Consultant Perinatal Psychiatrist Royal College of Cantwell Psychiatrists Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr Ian Jones Consultant Perinatal Psychiatrist, Royal College of Health (1) whether his Department’s forthcoming Psychiatrist statutory guidance on, Implementing Fulfilling and Dr Tahir Consultant Obstetrician and Gynaecologist, Royal Rewarding Lives will require local authorities to record Mahmood College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists the unmet needs of individuals diagnosed with autism Dr Judy General Practitioner Shakespeare in order to assist planning for future service provision; [23941] 763W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 764W

(2) if he will take steps to ensure that his (2) which of his Department’s non-departmental Department’s forthcoming statutory guidance on public bodies have undertaken activities to influence services for adults with autism, Implementing public policy for which they engaged (a) public affairs Fulfilling and Rewarding Lives, is accessible to and (b) public relations consultants in each year since individuals to be able to use to hold their local services 1997; and at what monetary cost in each such year. to account; [23944] [23784] (3) Health if he will take steps to ensure that his Department’s forthcoming statutory guidance on Mr Simon Burns: The information requested is not services for adults with autism, Implementing held centrally and could be obtained only at Fulfilling and Rewarding Lives, increases the standard disproportionate cost. of training provided for staff in health and social care Those bodies which procured work from public affairs in autism. [23945] consultancies between 1999-2000 and 2008-09 were identified in the answer of 23 June 2009, Official Report, Paul Burstow: The national consultation on the statutory column 853W, which showed summary expenditure. guidance closed on 22 October. We are currently in the Food: Labelling process of analysing the response, which will inform the further development of the statutory guidance. Ministers Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for will then consider a revised draft and take final decisions Health what steps he has taken in preparation for the on content. We would not wish nor would it be appropriate EPSCO meeting on 6 and 7 December 2010 to ensure to anticipate this process. that the UK retains its right to additional voluntary The Autism Act sets the publication date for the schemes using front-of-pack food labelling; and if he statutory guidance, which must be produced and published will make a statement. [23781] before 31 December 2010. We will consider carefully how the guidance can be made accessible to individuals Anne Milton: The United Kingdom has been actively and their families. involved in all the Council discussions to progress proposals for additional voluntary schemes. I understand that the Congenital Myasthenic Syndrome text to be presented to the Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council (EPSCO) is expected Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for to allow voluntary Front of Pack nutrition labelling, Health what estimate he made of the number of babies with information on energy, fat, saturated fat, sugars born with Congenital Myasthenic Syndrome in each of and salt with percentage Guideline Daily Amount, as the last three years. [23583] well as additional forms of expression and presentation (format unspecified) on a voluntary basis. However Anne Milton: The information requested is as follows discussions are ongoing. Number of finished admission episodes for congenital and General Practitioners developmental myasthenia in newborns (2007-08 to 2009-10), activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Number what timetable he has set for the implementation of his proposals for GP commissioning. [23624] 2009-10 0 2008-09 0 Mr Simon Burns: We are committed to a staged 2007-08 1 implementation of our proposals for new general Notes: practitioner (GP) commissioning arrangements. Subject 1. A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of inpatient to the outcomes of the analysis of the consultation care under one consultant within one healthcare provider. FAEs are responses the Department has received and to parliamentary counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the number of inpatients, as a person approval of the necessary primary legislation, our indicative may have more than one admission within the year. timetable sets out that GP consortiums will begin to 2. HES are compiled from data sent by more than 300 NHS trusts and form, where they wish to, and where they are ready to primary care trusts in England and from some independent sector do so, in 2010-11, and that throughout 2011-12 a more organisations for activity commissioned by the English NHS. The comprehensive system of shadow consortiums will be NHS Information Centre for health and social care liaises closely with these organisations to encourage submission of complete and valid in place, up and running and learning. We also propose data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies. While this brings about that the NHS Commissioning Board will be established improvement over time, some shortcomings remain. in shadow form in 2011-12. Source: By April 2012, consortiums will be formally established Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), The NHS Information Centre for health and social care. with indicative allocations and responsibility to prepare commissioning plans. The NHS Commissioning Board Departmental Lobbying will also be established as an independent statutory body. Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for By 2013, we propose that we will have fully engaged Health (1) how much his Department’s agencies and and authorised GP consortiums with real budgets and non-departmental public bodies spent from the public holding contracts with providers. purse on influencing public policy through (a) employing external (i) public affairs companies, (ii) Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health strategic consultancies and (iii) corporate whether GPs will be responsible for commissioning (a) communications firms, (b) external marketing and (c) hepatitis (i) B and (ii) C and (b) other specialist other activities in each of the last 10 years; [23761] services; and if he will make a statement. [23625] 765W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 766W

Mr Simon Burns: The White Paper ‘Equity and Lambert Eaton Syndrome excellence: Liberating the NHS’ set out our proposals to devolve power and responsibility for commissioning Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health services to local consortiums of general practitioner what estimate he has made of the cost to the NHS (a) (GP) practices. in total and (b) per patient of the substitution of We propose that GP consortiums will be responsible Firdapse® for 3,4 diaminopyridine for the treatment of for commissioning the great majority of national health patients with Lambert Eaton syndrome in 2011-12. service services, including for non-complicated cases of [23568] hepatitis B and C, depending on local service provision. We will expect consortiums to involve relevant health Mr Simon Burns: The estimated cost to the NHS and social care professionals from all sectors in helping (secondary care in England) of the substitution of design care pathways or care packages that achieve Firdapse® for 3,4 diaminopyridine for patients with more integrated delivery of care, higher quality, and Lambert Eaton syndrome in 2011-12 is as follows: more efficient use of NHS resources. This will create an (a) In total—£9,768,668 (excluding VAT); and effective dialogue across all health and, where appropriate, (b) Per patient—£44,000 (excluding VAT). social care professionals. Malnutrition We propose that the NHS Commissioning Board will commission national specialised services and regional specialised services as set out in the Specialised Services Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for National Definitions Set. This may include services for Health how many patients with malnutrition were (a) complicated cases of hepatitis B and C which are included admitted to and (b) discharged from each hospital in in the definition of specialised services for Liver, Biliary England in each of the last three years for which and Pancreatic Medicine and Surgery (adult). figures are available. [23697] ‘Liberating the NHS: Commissioning for Patients’ Anne Milton: A table which provides a count of invited views on a number of areas of the commissioning admissions and last (discharge) episodes in and out of agenda, including asking consultees to consider whether hospital where there was a primary or secondary diagnosis there are any services currently commissioned as regional of malnutrition broken down by hospital provider from specialised services that could potentially be commissioned 2007-08 to 2009-10 has been placed in the Library. in the future by commissioning consortiums. The Note that admissions and discharges do not represent engagement exercise closed on 11 October and the the number of people, as a person may have more than Department is now analysing all of the contributions one admission within the year. received. Mental Health Services Health Services Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State pursuant to the answer of 2 November 2010, Official for Health whether his Department has plans to Report, column 775W, on mental health services, when produce a new edition of the Specialised Services he expects to publish his (a) mental health strategy National Definitions Set; whether the NHS and (b) public health White Paper. [23818] Commissioning Board plans to use the third edition of the set as the basis for its role in commissioning Paul Burstow: On 2 September I announced the beginning National Specialised Services; and if he will make a of work on reshaping the mental health strategy which will have the twin aims of promoting and sustaining statement. [23729] good mental health and well-being in the wider population and improving the quality of existing services for people Mr Simon Burns: The Specialised Services National across the full range of mental health problems. We Definitions Set (SSNDS) has recently been updated expect to publish the strategy in the new year. through a long process of consultation which involved key clinicians and patient groups. Improving public health is at the core of this Government’s health policy and we will make clear our The SSNDS will form the solid basis for considering priorities in this area in the Public Health White Paper which specialised services the Secretary of State will ask later this year. the NHS Commissioning Board to commission. Myasthenia Gravis Hepatitis: Health Services Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) when he last met the Myasthenia Gravis Health whether he plans to publish a funded hepatitis Association; and what the agenda was of that meeting; action plan in a similar format to that used in Scotland. [23578] [24369] (2) whether he plans to take steps to raise the level of public awareness of the condition Myasthenia Gravis; Anne Milton: Professor Martin Lombard, national [23579] clinical director for liver disease, is currently leading the (3) what recent estimate he has made of the number Department’s programme of work to support the national of people who have Myasthenia Gravis who are (a) health service in responding to liver disease in England, under 18, (b) between 18 and 30, (c) between 31 and of which viral hepatitis is a factor. The Department will 40, (d) between 41 and 50, (e) between 51 and 60 and then publish a public consultation on proposals. (f) over 60 years; [23582] 767W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 768W

(4) what recent estimate he has made of the number for marketing authorisations are defined at a European of people of each sex who have been diagnosed with level. In the UK the Medicines and Healthcare products Myasthenia Gravis; [23584] Regulatory Agency is responsible for the assessment of (5) how many specialist nurses there are for patients medicinal products for human use, and contributes with Myasthenia Gravis in each NHS trust. [23585] towards the work of the European Medicines Agency in this area. Paul Burstow: Detailed information on myasthenia In the UK the provision for the use of an unlicensed gravis has been made available on the NHS Choices medicinal product is provided for by way of an exemption website at: from the requirement for a marketing authorisation. In http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/myasthenia-gravis/Pages/ the interests of public health this exemption is narrowly Introduction.aspx drawn because these products, unlike products holding This information, suitable for those newly diagnosed a marketing authorisation, will not have been assessed and health professionals, covers the diagnosis, symptoms, and approved against the criteria of safety, quality and and treatments for this rare condition. More detailed efficacy. information, suitable for clinicians, is available on the The use of an unlicensed medicinal product can only NHS Evidence website at: take place to fulfil the special clinical needs of the http://www.evidence.nhs.uk/search.aspx?t=myasthenia+gravis patient, where those needs cannot be met by an authorised It is estimated that around 6,000 people in the United medicinal product. The “special clinical needs” in such Kingdom have myasthenia gravis. No age, or sex, a situation must be of the patient, rather than due to breakdown for people with myasthenia gravis has been considerations such as cost. made. In the UK it is for a doctor’s clinical judgment as to The number of specialist nurses for people with which medicinal products they prescribe for their patient. myasthenia gravis is not collected centrally. A doctor should always consider using an authorised medicinal product first if available. Decisions such as I have had no meeting with the Myasthenia Gravis the use of an unlicensed medicine need to be made in Association. discussion with the patient concerned. NHS NHS: Finance Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 1 November 2010, Official Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Report, column 649W, on North West Strategic Health what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State Authority: redundancy, when he expects to publish the for Communities and Local Government on the likely impact assessment of the Government’s consultations effects on discharges from the NHS of reductions in on changes to the NHS. [23719] Government funding for local authorities. [23604]

Mr Simon Burns: The Government published an Paul Burstow: The spending review recognises the analytical strategy on 12 July 2010 outlining how we importance of social care in protecting most vulnerable would develop the impact assessment for the reforms in in society. In recognition of the pressures on the social the White Paper, “Equity and Excellence: Liberating care system in a challenging fiscal climate, the coalition the NHS”, and its accompanying consultation documents. Government have allocated an additional £2 billion by We intend to publish an impact assessment for all the 2014-15 to support the delivery of social care. This proposals that require primary legislation in the forthcoming means, with an ambitious programme of efficiency, that Health Bill. there is enough funding available both to protect people’s access to services and deliver new approaches to improve NHS: Drugs quality and outcomes. We have achieved this by: Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what his policy is on the supply of (a) unlicensed and The NHS transferring some funding from the health capital (b) budget to health revenue, to be spent on measures that support patented drugs which hold a marking social care, which also benefits health. This funding will be up to authorisation. [23571] £1 billion in 2014-15; Additional grant funding, rising to £1 billion by 2014-15, will Mr Simon Burns: In the United Kingdom medicines be made available for social care. This funding will be allocated in for human use are regulated by the Medicines Act 1968 addition to the Department’s existing social care grants, which and supporting regulations which aim to protect patient will rise in line with inflation. Total grant funding from the health. Before a medicine can be marketed in the UK, a Department for social care will reach £2.4 billion by 2014-15. In number of licences are required. The product itself order to support local flexibility and to reduce administrative must have a licence called a ‘marketing authorisation’ burdens, this funding will go to authorities through the Revenue unless an exemption applies. In addition, the companies Support Grant. that are involved in all stages of the manufacture (including importation) and distribution of the product need to NHS: Standards hold an appropriate licence. A marketing authorisation is granted following an Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Health assessment of the safety, quality and efficacy of a what mechanisms are in place to monitor (a) waiting medicinal product. Marketing authorisations can be times in the NHS and (b) the accountability of NHS specific to an European Union member state, or apply bodies for timely access to consultation and treatment; across all EU member states. The regulatory requirements and if he will make a statement. [23669] 769W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 770W

Mr Simon Burns: The Department collects and publishes Commissioners have a legal duty to commission services monthly data on the time patients wait from referral to that meet maximum waiting times standards and to start of treatment. The latest national statistics data for offer redress to patients who wait longer if they request the month of August 2010 are shown in the following it. Commissioners are able to enforce the clauses related tables. to waiting times with their providers through the NHS The NHS constitution includes the patient right standard contracts. “to access services within maximum waiting times, or for the National Health Service to take all reasonable steps to offer you a range of alternative providers if this is not possible”.

Monthly referral to treatment (RTT) waiting times August 2010 commissioner-based data—RTT waiting times for admitted pathways completed during the month (on an adjusted basis) Total number of Total number of completed pathways Average 95th percentile completed pathways (with a known clock (median) waiting waiting time (in Percentage within Treatment Function (all) start) time (in weeks) weeks) 18 weeks

General Surgery 40,355 40,306 7.6 19.6 93.6 Urology 19,639 19,611 6.8 20.0 93.4 Trauma and Orthopaedics 51,483 51,448 11.7 23.7 88.5 Ear, nose and throat 17,333 17,323 10.4 20.6 92.3 Ophthalmology 38,328 38,306 9.9 18.8 94.2 Oral Surgery 17,544 17,544 11.8 22.8 89.8 Neurosurgery 2,123 2,113 8.6 21.9 92.1 Plastic Surgery 11,059 11,043 7.7 20.4 92.8 Cardiothoracic Surgery 2,101 2,087 6.3 18.3 94.8 General Medicine 5,256 5,253 3.5 14.2 99.1 Gastroenterology 9,150 9,148 4.3 14.9 98.7 Cardiology 8,520 8,462 6.1 17.5 96.2 Dermatology 6,728 6,727 6.6 17.5 96.9 Thoracic Medicine 1,236 1,235 3.5 14.7 99.4 Neurology 840 827 4.0 16.8 97.7 Rheumatology 1,740 1,740 3.0 14.7 99.4 Geriatric Medicine 326 326 0.9 14.2 99.4 Gynaecology 26,130 26,120 6.2 17.8 95.9 Other 28,393 28,235 5.9 18.7 94.6 Total 288,284 287,854 8.3 20.0 93.2

August 2010 commissioner returns—RTT times for completed non-admitted pathways Total number of Total number of completed pathways Average 95th percentile completed pathways (with a known clock (median) waiting waiting time (in Percentage within Treatment function (all) start) time (in weeks) weeks) 18 weeks

General Surgery 59,973 59,962 3.5 15.8 97.4 Urology 26,275 26,256 5.2 16.5 97.0 Trauma and Orthopaedics 89,765 89,740 5.1 16.4 97.0 Ear, nose and throat 61,914 61,901 5.5 15.4 97.8 Ophthalmology 88,603 88,501 5.5 15.1 97.8 Oral Surgery 31,510 31,505 6.3 17.4 96.5 Neurosurgery 3,440 3,430 7.4 17.5 95.8 Plastic Surgery 9,052 9,047 4.2 15.7 97.6 Cardiothoracic Surgery 973 973 4.4 16.1 98.0 General Medicine 27,363 27,356 3.7 14.4 98.7 Gastroenterology 20,022 20,005 5.7 16.6 97.1 Cardiology 34,980 34,965 5.1 14.8 98.3 Dermatology 62,075 62,034 5.9 14.1 98.7 Thoracic Medicine 15,465 15,443 5.0 14.9 98.6 Neurology 21,765 21,741 7.3 15.9 97.4 Rheumatology 20,050 20,043 6.5 14.1 98.7 Geriatric Medicine 11,075 11,074 3.4 13.4 99.3 Gynaecology 56,540 56,471 3.8 14.1 98.3 Other 236,579 236,346 1.8 12.8 98.7 Total 877,419 876,793 4.4 15.0 98.0 Note: Median and 95th percentile times are calculated from aggregate data, rather than patient level data, and therefore are only estimates of the position on average waits. 771W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 772W

Physiology: Regulation Hospital doctors, nurses, pharmacists, allied health professionals and others all have a vital role to play and Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for a real opportunity to develop services and improve the Health what progress has been made on the statutory health outcomes of their local populations. Consortia regulation of clinical physiologists; and whether he has will need to ensure that they have access to and draw undertaken an impact assessment of such regulation. upon the necessary expertise of those working in health [24530] and social care to ensure that they have the most appropriate specialist input into their commissioning Anne Milton: Ministers are currently considering, decisions. within the context of the Government’s wider health Radiation Exposure strategy, whether to regulate healthcare scientists, including clinical physiologists, and how it might be done. A robust evidence-based cost-benefit risk analysis Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Health will be undertaken to inform the appropriate model of what (a) national and (b) local agreements there are in regulation for the healthcare science work force, including relation to the radiation dose uptake limitation system clinical physiologists. adopted by each ambulance service when attending a radiation emergency at each of the nuclear powered Primary Care Trusts submarine operational berths maintained by the Ministry of Defence as required by Regulation 14 of Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for the Radiation (Emergency Preparedness and Public Health what mechanisms he plans to establish to Information) Regulations 2001. [23635] ensure that groups of GPs meet their financial commitments following the abolition of primary care Anne Milton: The Department has recently published trusts. [22516] “The ambulance service guidance on dealing with radiological incidents and emergencies”, a copy of which Mr Simon Burns: Under our proposals for general has been placed in the Library. This document provides practitioner (GP) commissioning, practice level guidance on the management of staff safety while enhancing commissioning budgets will be allocated directly to GP patient care. This applies to all types of radiological commissioning consortiums. Each consortium will have incidents, including those sites covered by the Ministry the responsibility to decide how best to use these resources of Defence Nuclear Accident Response Organisation. to meet the health care needs of their patients. Consortiums The ambulance guidance is supported by a newly will also have the duty to ensure that their expenditure created capability of ambulance officers within trusts, does not exceed their allocated resources, for which they who have completed an ambulance radiation protection will be accountable to the NHS Commissioning Board. supervisor (RPS) course run by the Health Protection The detailed mechanisms that will be established to Agency (HPA). These officers are supported by a 24 hours ensure GP commissioning consortiums meet their financial a day, seven days a week ambulance radiation protection commitments will be developed as part of the financial advisor service (RPA), provided by the HPA. To date, framework for the proposed new system. 78 officers have been trained, with a further four more courses planned for this financial year. Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what his timescale is for the abolition of Social Services primary care trusts. [23910] Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for Paul Burstow: As set out in the Department’s business Health by what mechanism the additional funding for plan, published on 8 November 2010, the Government adult social care announced in the comprehensive have proposed that primary care trusts will be abolished spending review will be allocated to local authorities. in April 2013, subject to legislation being brought before [23948] Parliament. Primary Health Care Paul Burstow: The spending review recognises the importance of social care in protecting the most vulnerable Mr Streeter: To ask the Secretary of State for Health in society. In recognition of the pressures on the social whether he plans to take steps to ensure that GP care system in a challenging local government settlement, consortia include pharmacists in their decision-making the coalition Government have allocated an additional process in respect of the delivery of primary care. £2 billion by 2014-15 to support the delivery of social [23609] care. This means, with an ambitious programme of efficiency, that there is enough funding available both to Mr Simon Burns: General practitioner (GP) consortia protect people’s access to services and deliver new will commission the great majority of national health approaches to improve quality and outcomes. service services on behalf of patients. Consortia will not We have achieved this in two ways: be responsible for commissioning primary medical services, The NHS will transfer some funding from the health capital which will be the responsibility of the NHS Commissioning budget to health revenue, to be spent on measures that support Board, but consortia will become increasingly influential social care, which also benefits health. This funding will rise to in driving up the quality of general practice. £1 billion in 2014-15, and will promote improved joint working between the health and social care systems. Later this year, the GP consortia will be able to involve specialist expertise new operating framework will set out specific primary care trust in the commissioning of services as they see fit. Effective (PCT) allocations that they will transfer to local authorities for GP commissioning will require the full range of clinical spending on social care services to benefit health, and to and professional input alongside that of local people. improve overall health gain. PCTs and local authorities will need 773W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 774W to work together to agree jointly appropriate areas for social care State for Scotland was accompanied by one special adviser investment, with a shared analysis of need and a common agreement and two civil servants (including one press officer). on the outcomes to be met. All travel was arranged in accordance with the Ministerial Additional grant funding, rising to £1 billion by 2014-15, will Code and civil service guidelines. The Ministers’ costs be made available for social care. This funding will be allocated in addition to the Department’s existing social care grants, which were met by their respective Departments. will rise in line with inflation. Total grant funding from the The cost of the Deputy Prime Minister’s domestic Department for social care will reach £2.4 billion by 2014-15. In travel will be published as part of the Operating Cost order to support local flexibility and to reduce administrative Statement of the Cabinet Office Annual Report and burdens, this funding will go to authorities through the revenue Accounts at the end of the financial year. support grant. Varicose Veins: Health Services Voting Rights: Prisoners

Greg Hands: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Gavin Shuker: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister (1) how many patients in each strategic health what the evidential basis is for his Department’s authority area were treated for varicose veins by (a) estimate of potential losses arising from compensation vein stripping open surgery, (b) endovenous laser claims relating to prisoner voting rights. [23550] treatment, (c) radiofrequency ablation, (d) foam sclerotherapy and (e) using a vascular closure device in Mr Harper: As I indicated to the House on 2 November the NHS in each of the last five years; [23087] 2010, Official Report, columns 771-79, a number of (2) how many patients in each strategic health prisoners have brought legal cases against Her Majesty’s authority area treated for varicose veins (a) required Government in the domestic and Strasbourg courts. an overnight stay using surgery or laser under The estimate of the potential damages liability against anaesthetic, (b) were day patients after surgery or laser Her Majesty’s Government reflects the amounts claimed under anaesthetic or (c) received (i) laser or by prisoners and the size of the prison population who radiofrequency under tumescent local anaesthesia and might seek to make claims. The Government are defending (ii) sclerotherapy without any anaesthesia and office- these cases. based correction without overnight admission in each of the last five years. [23088] TREASURY Mr Simon Burns: The available information requested has been placed in the Library. Data are not available Government Borrowing prior to 2006-07 for endovenous laser treatment, radiofrequency ablation, foam sclerotherapy, using a 18. Claire Perry: To ask the Chancellor of the vascular closure device and combined varicose vein Exchequer what recent discussions he has had with the procedures as time series for these procedures only date Governor of the Bank of England on the relationship back to 2006-07. Data may not be comparable with between changes in market interest rates and levels of previous similar responses due to changes in clinical Government borrowing. [23981] coding methodology. Mr Hoban: The Bank of England’s November Inflation Report stated that: DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER “Market contacts reported that the formation of a new UK BBC government and the announcement of its plans for fiscal consolidation had reduced the perceived risks associated with holding UK gilts.” John McDonnell: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what recent meetings he has had with the Director- Comprehensive Spending Review General of the BBC; and whether the matter of pensions was discussed at those meetings. [24715] 19.Hywel Williams: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment has been made of the likely The Deputy Prime Minister: The Deputy Prime Minister effects on HM Revenue and Customs’ tax enquiry publishes details of his external meetings on a quarterly services for the public of the outcome of the basis. Officials have meetings with a wide range of comprehensive spending review. [23982] organisations and individuals on a range of subjects. Rosyth Dockyard Mr Gauke: HMRC is currently reviewing options for delivery of the tax inquiry services it provides through Thomas Docherty: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister its network of inquiry centres, contact centres and how many (a) politically-appointed advisers, (b) civil online over the next spending review period. HMRC servants and (c) press officers accompanied him and will focus on providing services that are both cost-effective the Secretary of State for Scotland on the visit to and meet the needs of its customers. Rosyth Dockyard on Tuesday 19 October; how many cars were used in Scotland to take the party to Rosyth Working Tax Credit Dockyard; what the cost was of the (i) flights and (ii) use of cars for the visit; and from which departmental 20. Alison McGovern: To ask the Chancellor of the budgets these costs were met. [24610] Exchequer what estimate he has made of the number of households with earnings between £12,000 and £30,000 The Deputy Prime Minister: The Deputy Prime Minister per year whose working tax credit payments will be was accompanied by one special adviser, and three civil reduced as a result of the implementation of proposals servants (including one press officer). The Secretary of in the comprehensive spending review. [23983] 775W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 776W

Justine Greening: 775,000 and 810,000 households Mr Hoban: The Government have taken decisive with incomes between £12,000 and £30,000 and receiving action to tackle unacceptable bank bonuses. The Financial working tax credits will receive a reduced working tax Services Authority (FSA) is revising its remuneration credit payment in 2011-12 and 2012-13 respectively as a code and new rules will be in place by 1 January 2011. result of the comprehensive spending review. In addition, the Government have introduced a levy that incentivises less risky banking activities and will 21. Mr Davidson: To ask the Chancellor of the continue to investigate the costs and benefits of a financial Exchequer what estimate he has made of the average activities tax. In combination, these and other measures reduction in working tax credits for households on will ensure remuneration is consistent with effective risk incomes between £12,000 and £30,000 per annum management and high earning employees and other resulting from implementation of proposals contained significant risk takers will not receive all their bonuses in the comprehensive spending review in the Spending in cash while leaving their shareholders, and potentially Review period. [23984] the taxpayer, exposed to the long-term risks they take.

Justine Greening: Households with incomes between Crown Currency Exchange £12,000 and £30,000 and receiving working tax credits will receive a reduced working tax credit payment of Helen Jones: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer £210 and £290 in 2011-12 and 2012-13 respectively as a what estimate HM Revenue and Customs has made of result of the comprehensive spending review. the liability for unpaid taxes arising from the entry into administration of the Crown Currency Exchange Ltd. Child Benefit [23718] Mr Gauke: Section 18 of the Commissioners of Revenue 22. Paul Blomfield: To ask the Chancellor of the and Customs Act 2005 does not permit HM Revenue Exchequer what estimate he has made of the number of and Customs to comment on the affairs of individual households which will be eligible for child benefit customers. following implementation of the proposals contained in the comprehensive spending review. [23985] Jack Lopresti: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will investigate the activities of the Mr Gauke: It is estimated that around 6 million Crown Currency Exchange; and if he will bring households will be eligible for child benefit following forward proposals to increase the effectiveness of implementation of the proposals contained in the regulation in the currency exchange sector. [23816] comprehensive spending review. Mr Hoban: I refer the hon. Member to the reply I Mr Tom Harris: To ask the Chancellor of the gave on 8 November 2010, Official Report, column 91W. Exchequer what estimate he has made of the number of households that will be eligible for child benefit once Tom Greatrex: To ask the Chancellor of the the proposals made in the spending review have been Exchequer what information he received from the implemented. [23966] Financial Services Authority on the (a) entry into administration and (b) outstanding liabilities of Danny Alexander: It is estimated that around 6 million Crown Currency Exchange. [24368] households will be eligible for child benefit following implementation of the proposals contained in the Mr Hoban: The Financial Services Authority (FSA) comprehensive spending review. is not responsible for the administration of Crown Currency Exchange or its outstanding liabilities. Redundancy and Retraining Costs The administrators are reviewing the trading operations of Crown Currency Exchange, its financial position and 23. Tony Lloyd: To ask the Chancellor of the the conduct of its directors. Once the administrators Exchequer what estimate he has made of the cost to the have reported, the Government will look closely at this Exchequer of redundancy and retraining requirements case to see what lessons need to be learned from the arising from implementation of proposals contained in failure of the company. the comprehensive spending review. [23986] Government Departments: Waste Danny Alexander: The total cost of work force reforms will depend on the decisions of significant numbers of Conor Burns: To ask the Chancellor of the public sector employers across the country. Detailed Exchequer what steps his Department has taken to decisions regarding the number of redundancies and ensure that the commitments made by Government the associated costs that may be required have yet to be departments to reduce their expenditure through waste finalised in most cases, and it would not be appropriate reduction are met. [23710] for the Treasury to speculate on any aggregate numbers. Danny Alexander: The Government’s reforms to devolve power away from Whitehall mean that central Government’s Staff Bonuses: Banks administrative functions will become smaller and more strategic: 24. Mr Russell Brown: To ask the Chancellor of the The administrative budgets of central Whitehall and its arms Exchequer what steps he plans to take to encourage length bodies (ALB) will be reduced by 34% over the Spending banks to reduce the amounts they award in staff Review period, saving £5.9 billion a year by 2014-15 so that bonuses. [23987] resources can be focused on frontline services. 777W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 778W

The number of ALBs across Government will be radically We want public services to be delivered in the most reduced. 118 will be merged and a further 192 will cease to be efficient and effective way by a range of providers public bodies with their functions either being brought back into including public, private and voluntary and community Government, devolved or abolished. organisations. To this end we have been seeking industry Central government functions will be subject to a views on innovative solutions to deliver better services. tough new efficiency regime, monitored and supported by the new Efficiency and Reform Group in the Cabinet Civil Service Live Conference Office. This will drive savings in operational overheads. Key measures include: Central mandation of commodity procurement, with centrally Robert Halfon: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet negotiated deals available to local government as well Office (1) what estimate he has made of the (a) (b) Stronger scrutiny processes for major projects to ensure they quantity and cost of (i) alcohol and (ii) non- will deliver on time and to budget alcoholic beverages consumed at Civil Service Live in each year since it was established; [23771] A more coordinated approach to supplier management to ensure Government act as a single client with key suppliers (2) what contracts his Department has let for each A new system of national property controls across the central Civil Service Live event; and what process has been civil and operational estate. used to select successful bidders for each. [23812] The Efficiency and Reform Group have already made good progress; their contract renegotiations are expected Mr Hurd: Civil Service Live events are owned and to deliver £800 million of savings this year and 300 ICT managed by Dods (the publisher of Civil Service World). projects have been reviewed with Cabinet Office working The Cabinet Office does not hold information on the with departments to stop or de-scope projects worth quantity and cost of beverages consumed at the events £1 billion. and neither has it employed contractors to manage CS Live events. Higher Education For further information on CS Live events, I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave on 15 November 2010, Rehman Chishti: To ask the Chancellor of the Official Report, column 635W. Exchequer what research his Department has (a) undertaken and (b) evaluated on the relationship Departmental Lobbying between university enrolment and economic productivity. [23291] Robert Halfon: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how much his Department’s agencies and Danny Alexander: The Government recognise the key non-departmental public bodies spent from the public role that higher education plays in supporting economic purse on influencing public policy through (a) growth and productivity, not only through the skills of employing external (i) public affairs companies, (ii) graduates but also the research and innovation activities strategic consultancies and (iii) corporate of higher education institutions. It keeps the available communications firms, (b) external marketing and (c) evidence under regular review. other activities in each year since its inception. [23768]

Mr Hurd: Since their inception, the Cabinet Office’s agencies and non-departmental public bodies, have not CABINET OFFICE spent any money from the public purse on influencing public policy through (a) employing external (i) public Business: Procurement affairs companies, (ii) strategic consultancies and (iii) corporate communications firms, (b) external marketing Karen Lumley: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet and (c) other activities. Office what assessment his Department has made of the effects of the implementation of the proposals Robert Halfon: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet of the comprehensive spending review on the capacity Office which of his Department’s non-departmental of (a) small and medium-sized enterprises and (b) public bodies have undertaken activities to influence large companies to participate in the procurement public policy for which they engaged (a) public affairs process for government contracts. [23559] and (b) public relations consultants in each year since 1997; and at what monetary cost in each such year. Mr Hurd: We want to make public procurement [23790] easier for suppliers of all sizes by taking bureaucracy and delays out of the process. Mr Hurd: Since 1997, the Cabinet Office’s non- On 1 November I announced a series of measures to departmental public bodies have not undertaken any make it easier for small firms and organisations to do activities to influence public policy for which they engaged business with Government. These included a ‘Lean’ (a) public affairs and (b) public relations consultants. study looking at causes of delay in the procurement process and action to speed up the process. Departmental Offices We have also initiated work to centralise the procurement of common goods and services across Government, Simon Kirby: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet using our combined purchasing power to get the best Office what steps his Department is taking to reduce value for money. This will provide a much simpler the costs of Ministerial offices; and if he will make a mechanism for suppliers to engage with Government. statement. [23804] 779W Written Answers16 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 780W

Mr Hurd: The Department keeps under review the the procurement of common goods and services across staffing of its ministerial offices to ensure the most government; and made a start on streamlining public efficient and cost effective operation. In addition, none procurement processes. of the Cabinet Office ministerial team have an allocated We expect those conducting government procurement car and driver. to comply with mandatory requirements, but we have Government Departments: Procurement no plans to monitor individual public procurement exercises; nor do we intend to establish independent verification that public bodies are complying with OGC Mr Russell Brown: To ask the Minister for the tools and good practice. Cabinet Office what guidance his Department provides on the cost criteria for the tendering of government Institute for Fiscal Studies contracts. [24286] Robert Halfon: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Hurd: UK Government procurement policy requires Office how much his Department spent on services that contracts be awarded on the basis of the best value provided by the Institute for Fiscal Studies in each of for money over the life of the contract. The Office of the last 10 years. [23389] Government Commerce, now part of the Efficiency and Reform Group in the Cabinet Office, has published on Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office has made the following its website a range of tools to support procurers in payments to the Institute for Fiscal Studies in the last achieving this. 10 years As part of our drive to improve efficiency and reduce waste in the procurement process, we have commissioned £ a ‘Lean’ study looking at causes of cost and delay and action to address them. 2000-01 818.75 2001-02 105.75 Stephen Barclay: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet 2002-03 350.25 Office how many contracts have been identified as not 2003-04 172.25 delivering value for money since the announcement 2004-05 250.00 that his Department will collate monthly data on the 2005-06 0 use of consultants by central Government in May 2006-07 0 2010; what the monetary value of such contracts is; 2007-08 0 what estimate he has made of the number of full-time 2008-09 2,415.01 consultant posts involved in such contracts; and how 2009-10 6,377.30 many such contracts have been cancelled. [24310] Legal Services Commission: Procurement Mr Hurd: The Cabinet Offices does not collect data across central Government on the value delivered by Rosie Cooper: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet individual consultancy contracts, or any other types of Office how many complaints have been made to the contract. It is a matter for departments to assess whether Office of Government Commerce on the tendering their individual contracts deliver the value as identified activities of the Legal Services Commission in 2010; in the associated business case. and under what (a) procedures and (b) timescale A number of specific consultancy contracts have those complaints are dealt with. [24317] been terminated, or scaled back, in direct response to the major programme review and ICT moratorium Mr Hurd: The Office of Government Commerce, which is currently in place. This has resulted in expenditure which is now part of the Efficiency and Reform Group with consultancy firms reducing by more than 50% on in the Cabinet Office, has received one complaint against the same time last year across departments. the Legal Services Commission in 2010. This is currently The Cabinet Office has published tools to assist being handled by the Supplier Feedback Service. departments in developing consultancy business cases and conducting post assignment reviews in order to Ministers: Conduct measure value. Details are to be found on the Office of Government Commerce website. Mr Bone: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office to which hon. Members the provisions of the Rosie Cooper: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Ministerial Code of Conduct apply. [24362] Office what steps the Office of Government Commerce plans to take to ensure that public authorities Mr Maude: The provisions of the Ministerial Code undertaking major tendering activities have taken into applies to Government Ministers. account its guidance on tendering; and whether it plans to take steps to ensure that there is independent Parliamentary Private Secretaries verification that public bodies have complied with such guidance. [24316] Mr Bone: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office which hon. Members have been appointed as Mr Hurd: Since coming to office the Government Parliamentary Private Secretaries. [24363] have taken steps to improve the efficiency and quality of government procurement. We have taken a grip on Mr Maude: A list of Parliamentary Private Secretaries major procurement projects; initiated work to centralise will be published shortly.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 16 November 2010

Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY ...... 723 TREASURY—continued Bank Lending (Businesses) ...... 731 Office of Tax Simplification...... 723 Child Benefit...... 736 Pensioners (Fiscal Assistance)...... 725 Child Trust Funds...... 727 Personal Saving...... 732 Comprehensive Spending Review...... 730 Private Sector Growth Trends ...... 733 Comprehensive Spending Review...... 734 Redundancy and Retraining Costs...... 736 Credit Rating Agencies ...... 729 Tax Evasion and Avoidance ...... 728 EU Budgetary Rebate ...... 735 Topical Questions ...... 738 Government Deficits...... 737 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 16 November 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 35WS HEALTH...... 39WS “Skills for Sustainable Growth” ...... 35WS Adult Social Care...... 39WS Right to Request Social Enterprise Scheme ...... 41WS CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 37WS Parliamentary Oral Question (Correction)...... 37WS EDUCATION...... 38WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 42WS Children’s Workforce Development Council...... 38WS Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 (Annual Report)...... 42WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 38WS TREASURY ...... 36WS Waste Water National Policy Statement...... 38WS ECOFIN (17 November 2010) ...... 36WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 16 November 2010

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 680W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Crown Prosecution Service...... 680W One NorthEast: Assets...... 748W Crown Prosecution Service: Closures ...... 683W Royal Mail ...... 748W Crown Prosecution Service: Personnel ...... 683W Science: Finance...... 748W Departmental Contracts ...... 686W Space Technology ...... 748W Newspaper Press: Telephone Tapping ...... 687W Students: Fees and Charges...... 750W Prosecutions: Convictions ...... 687W Students: Finance ...... 750W Supermarkets: Ombudsman...... 751W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 737W Adult Education ...... 737W CABINET OFFICE...... 777W Adult Education: Fees and Charges ...... 738W Business: Procurement ...... 777W AgustaWestland: Finance ...... 738W Civil Service Live Conference...... 778W Animation: Higher Education...... 738W Departmental Lobbying...... 778W Apprentices...... 738W Departmental Offices...... 778W Business ...... 739W Government Departments: Procurement ...... 779W Consumer Focus ...... 741W Institute for Fiscal Studies ...... 780W Cumbria University: Finance...... 741W Legal Services Commission: Procurement...... 780W EU Grants and Loans...... 741W Ministers: Conduct ...... 780W Executives ...... 742W Parliamentary Private Secretaries...... 780W Green Investment Bank ...... 742W Higher Education...... 743W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 675W Higher Education: Bexley ...... 743W Allotments ...... 675W Higher Education: Finance ...... 744W Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings...... 675W Higher Education Innovation Fund...... 743W Empty Dwelling Management Orders...... 676W Higher Education: Private Sector...... 744W Fire Services: East of England ...... 676W Innovation ...... 745W Institute for Fiscal Studies ...... 677W Minimum Wage ...... 746W Ironbridge Gorge ...... 677W Myasthenia Gravis: Research...... 746W Local Government: Sustainable Development ...... 677W New Businesses ...... 747W Non-domestic Rates: Surcharges...... 678W News International ...... 747W Social Rented Housing: Lewisham...... 678W Office for Fair Access...... 747W Travellers...... 678W Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 671W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— BBC: Expenditure...... 671W continued BBC Wales: Television ...... 671W Livestock: Overseas Trade...... 692W Cultural Heritage: Nuclear Power Stations ...... 671W Ofwat ...... 692W Departmental Lobbying...... 672W Redundancy...... 693W Digital Broadcasting: Hearing Impairment...... 672W Water Supply: Industry ...... 693W Film: Children ...... 673W Wild Horses ...... 694W Football ...... 674W Wildlife: Internet...... 694W Public Expenditure...... 674W Sports: Clubs ...... 675W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 662W Television: Disability Aids...... 675W British Nationals Abroad: Prisoners ...... 662W Iran: Human Rights...... 662W DEFENCE...... 727W Israel: Borders...... 662W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 727W Japan: Whales ...... 663W Air Force: Military Bases ...... 728W Middle East: Armed Conflict...... 663W Armed Forces: Conditions of Employment ...... 731W Middle East: Peace Negotiations...... 663W Armed Forces: Training ...... 732W Philippines: Crimes of Violence ...... 664W Chinook Helicopters...... 733W Sudan: Referendums ...... 664W Defence Estates: Decontamination ...... 733W Turkey: British Council...... 664W Defence: Expenditure...... 734W Devonport Dockyard...... 734W HEALTH...... 761W Human Rights ...... 734W Abortion ...... 761W Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft...... 734W Autism ...... 762W Military Aircraft ...... 735W Autism: Health Services ...... 762W Military Bases...... 735W Congenital Myasthenic Syndrome ...... 763W NATO: European Naval Force...... 735W Departmental Lobbying...... 763W Navy: Accidents ...... 735W Food: Labelling...... 764W Nimrod Aircraft...... 736W General Practitioners ...... 764W Rosyth Dockyard: Radiation Exposure...... 736W Health Services ...... 765W Royal Navy: Manpower ...... 737W Hepatitis: Health Services ...... 765W Lambert Eaton Syndrome...... 766W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 773W Malnutrition ...... 766W BBC ...... 773W Mental Health Services ...... 766W Rosyth Dockyard ...... 773W Myasthenia Gravis...... 766W Voting Rights: Prisoners ...... 774W NHS...... 767W NHS: Drugs...... 767W EDUCATION...... 751W NHS: Finance ...... 768W Children In Care ...... 751W NHS: Standards...... 768W Departmental Chief Scientific Advisers ...... 752W Physiology: Regulation...... 771W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 752W Primary Care Trusts...... 771W Education: Assessments ...... 753W Primary Health Care...... 771W Education Maintenance Allowance...... 752W Radiation Exposure ...... 772W Education Maintenance Allowance: Rotherham.... 753W Social Services...... 772W Free School Meals...... 753W Varicose Veins: Health Services...... 773W Free Schools...... 753W Free Schools: Freedom of Information ...... 753W HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 715W Local Safeguarding Children Boards ...... 754W Animal Experiments: Primates ...... 715W Mental Health: Curriculum ...... 754W Animal Welfare: Public Expenditure ...... 715W Public Expenditure: Greater London ...... 755W Asylum: Finance...... 716W Schools: Admissions ...... 755W Asylum: Glasgow...... 719W Schools: Anti-Semitism...... 755W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 722W Schools: Standards...... 756W Detention Centres: Children ...... 722W Schools: Warrington ...... 756W Domestic Violence: Arrests ...... 723W Special Educational Needs...... 756W Immigration Controls: Northern Ireland ...... 723W Teaching: Fireworks...... 757W Police Custody: Illegal Immigrants ...... 724W Police: Finance...... 724W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 655W Police: Manpower ...... 724W Departmental Press...... 655W UK Border Agency: Northern Ireland...... 725W Visas: Taiwan ...... 726W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 687W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 760W Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories House of Commons: Housing ...... 760W Agency...... 687W Meat: Slaughter ...... 761W Animal Products: EU Law ...... 688W Beak Trimming ...... 688W INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY Circuses: Animal Welfare...... 689W STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE ...... 757W Common Land...... 689W Complaints ...... 757W Dangerous Dogs ...... 690W Members and Members’ Staff: National Insurance Departmental Information Officers ...... 690W Contributions ...... 758W Departmental Lobbying...... 691W Members: National Insurance Contributions...... 758W Environment Agency: Watercourses...... 691W Members: Security ...... 759W Col. No. Col. No. INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS TRANSPORT—continued AUTHORITY COMMITTEE—continued Departmental Conditions of Employment...... 698W Trade Unions ...... 759W Departmental Pay ...... 698W Travel ...... 760W Departmental Policy ...... 698W Departmental Redundancy ...... 698W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 659W Departmental Work Experience...... 699W Developing Countries: Maternity Services ...... 659W Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee.. 699W Independent Commission for Aid Impact: Institute for Fiscal Studies ...... 700W Expenditure ...... 660W M18: Speed Limits...... 700W Strategic Defence and Security Review ...... 660W Mental Health...... 701W Sudan: Human Rights ...... 660W Motor Vehicles: Testing ...... 702W Sudan: International Assistance...... 661W Parking: Disability ...... 702W Zimbabwe: Agriculture ...... 661W Railways: Construction...... 702W Railways: Timetables...... 703W JUSTICE...... 665W Redundancy...... 703W Coroner Service: Departmental Coordination ...... 665W Roads: Accidents ...... 704W Data Protection...... 666W Roads: Wales...... 704W Google ...... 666W Speed Limits: Cameras...... 704W Homicide: Death Certificates ...... 667W Legal Services Commission: Procurement...... 667W TREASURY ...... 774W Magistrates Courts...... 668W Child Benefit...... 775W Magistrates Courts: Closures ...... 668W Comprehensive Spending Review...... 774W Non-molestation Orders ...... 668W Crown Currency Exchange ...... 776W Sentencing...... 668W Government Borrowing ...... 774W Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007: Government Departments: Waste ...... 776W Debt Collection...... 670W Higher Education...... 777W Young Offenders Institutions: Legal Opinion ...... 671W Redundancy and Retraining Costs...... 775W Staff Bonuses: Banks ...... 775W PRIME MINISTER ...... 664W Working Tax Credit ...... 774W Chequers...... 664W Departmental Internet ...... 665W WALES...... 659W Members: Allowances ...... 665W Public Sector: Employment...... 659W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 694W SCOTLAND...... 655W Commonwealth Women’s Affairs Ministerial Broadband: Scotland ...... 655W Conference...... 694W Broadcasting: Scotland ...... 655W Departmental Travel ...... 694W Citizens Advice Scotland ...... 656W Equal Pay...... 695W Glasgow School of Art ...... 657W Government Equalities Office: Finance ...... 695W Kenneth Calman...... 657W Political Adviser...... 657W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 705W Political Appointments ...... 657W Asbestos...... 705W Public Expenditure: Scotland...... 657W Departmental Contracts ...... 705W Scotland Bill ...... 658W Departmental Reviews ...... 705W Universities: Visits...... 658W Disability Living Allowance: Care Homes ...... 706W Visits Abroad: Scotland ...... 658W Funeral Payments ...... 707W West Lothian Question ...... 658W Housing Benefit ...... 708W Housing Benefit: Brighton ...... 709W SOLICITOR-GENERAL...... 751W Housing Benefit: East Sussex ...... 710W Revenue and Customs Prosecutions Office...... 751W Housing Benefit: Rents ...... 710W Institute for Fiscal Studies: Public Expenditure ..... 710W TRANSPORT ...... 695W Jobcentres: Compensation ...... 710W A69 ...... 695W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 711W Alloy Wheels...... 696W Private Rented Housing ...... 712W Bus Services ...... 696W Social Rented Housing...... 713W Bus Services: Finance...... 696W State Retirement Pensions...... 713W Bus Services: Information Services...... 697W Vacancies ...... 713W Cycling...... 697W Welfare State: Reform ...... 714W Dartford-Thurrock Crossing: Tolls ...... 697W Winter Fuel Payments...... 715W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 23 November 2010

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF THE VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their Speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), on application to the Stationery Office, c/o the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons, from whom the terms and conditions of reprinting may be ascertained. Application forms are available at the Vote Office.

PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords, £3·50. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords, £525. WEEKLY HANSARD Single copies: Commons, £12; Lords, £6. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £440. Lords, £225. Index: Annual subscriptions: Commons, £125; Lords, £65. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £40. Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volumeof House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. WEEKLY INFORMATION BULLETIN compiled by the House of Commons, giving details of past and forthcoming business, the work of Committees and general information on legislation, etc. The Annual Subscription includes also automatic despatch of the Sessional Information Digest. Single copies: £1·50. Annual subscriptions: £53·50. All prices are inclusive of postage Volume 518 Tuesday No. 72 16 November 2010

CONTENTS

Tuesday 16 November 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 723] [see index inside back page] Chancellor of the Exchequer

Redfern Inquiry [Col. 745] Statement—(Chris Huhne)

Guantanamo Civil Litigation Settlement [Col. 752] Statement—(Mr Kenneth Clarke)

Employment Retention [Col. 767] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(John Robertson)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill [Col. 770] Considered in Committee

Parliamentary Contributory Pension Fund [Col. 856] Motion—(Mr Heath)—agreed to

House of Commons Members’ Fund [Col. 856] Motion—(Mr Heath)—agreed to

Petition [Col. 857]

Summertime (Scotland) [Col. 858] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Policing (West Midlands) [Col. 189WH] Cyprus [Col. 212WH] Yorkshire Water [Col. 233WH] Nuclear Power (Dungeness) [Col. 240WH] Sustainable Communities Act 2007 [Col. 249WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 35WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 655W] [see index inside back page]