Zita Cobb, Entrepreneur and Innkeeper: Island Time INDAGARE GLOBAL CONVERSATIONS | 2.13
Melissa Biggs Bradley Hi there, and welcome to Indagare's Global Conversations, a podcast about how traveling the world shapes our lives and our perspectives. I'm Melissa Biggs Bradley of Indagare, a company I founded on the belief that how you travel matters. I'm sitting down in conversation with some of the most inspiring and innovative people I've met while on the road. They will share stories about their travels and how they lead lives of passion and purpose. Welcome to the conversation. The last time Indagare spoke to my next guest, Zita Cobb, the remarkable Canadian businesswoman who founded Fogo Island Inn, a very special property off of Newfoundland, here's a little of what she said. "Our project asks a big question. How do we belong in the world? Whether you are a person or a community, how do you fit in in a way that has integrity? How do you become a whole person? How do you ensure that you aren't just moving in and out of projects? We live together in a world that is out of balance. If you wanna be really extreme about it, our world is on fire and we are sadly both victims and perpetrators. We need to figure out how to make the world work within some idea of human communities." Amazingly, although these comments sound all too appropriate for today, that's what Zita was saying back in 2015, and that's why I'm so excited to catch up with her today. Hers is clearly a well-informed and big picture, on target perspective. I don't wanna give too much more away so that Zita can tell her story in her own words, but let me preface our conversation by saying that Zita grew up on Fogo, which is an island so remote, it has its own timezone. She was the only daughter out of seven children. Her parents could neither read, nor write, and raised them in a house without running water or electricity. And by her early 40s, Zita had become one of the highest paid women in all of North America. For that and many other reasons, she's incredibly inspiring and compelling to listen to. Zita, I'm so happy to have you here with us today. Thank you so much for doing this. How are things in Canada and where are you?
Zita Cobb Melissa, thank you for having me. I've been a long time admirer of Indagare, so this is gonna be a mutual admiration club for the next (laughs) hour or so. Um, well, you know, in, uh, in Canada, the decisions around movements and health policy are made, uh, by the provinces and territories. And so the province of Newfoundland and Labrador, um, shut down, uh, pretty much to all visitors, uh, without ... Except with quarantine requirements and all of that, uh, in about the middle of March and so the inn really stopped being able to receive guests at that time. I think we all feel this ... We're in this odd time, where, you know, time- time flows, but doesn't move somehow.
Melissa Biggs Bradley And for you, personally, Zita, have there been certain routines or changes in your life that you've implemented to kind of use this strange time productively and stay inspired and centered?
Zita Cobb Yeah. A- and I feel like ... When ... I- I read this thing that says, you know, this, uh, COVID-19 pandemic is not an event, it's an era. And I think as soon as my thinking shifted around that, then I stopped thinking okay, this is a crisis that I just have to, you know, survive for the next weeks. And it is an era and I think, u- uh, for us, as a team ... And I'm in Ottawa because I sort of got a little bit stranded in Ottawa on my way home, when all the COVID pots boiled over and travel became difficult, and so I've been separated from most of my team. But we, like this, we have become masters of Zoom and Zooming and all of that and, uh ... I- I think in the very early days of it, we came to accept that, uh, it was gonna take an emotional and psychological toll on all of us. And actually, one of our team members said in the very early days, she said, "I feel the- the- the chronic home of menace," because, you know, we didn't know what was happening and what it meant and it ... And so as we were trying to make sense of it all, we came then to accept that it is an era and what we needed to change was our attitude about it and to be more open to the fact that it is very uncertain, it's very complex. And, you know, we're always trying to imagine possible futures and make plans for those possible futures, which is exhausting in itself. And so then we came to the conclusion that it's just fine if we make decisions in the morning and change them in the afternoon, and I- I think that gave us a bit of relief, uh, to- to just make sense of what's coming at us in real time.
Melissa Biggs Bradley Yeah. (laughs) Now, can you describe what it was like growing up on Fogo Island? It's such a remote place and I wonder how that affected you.
Zita Cobb I think there- there are probably two ways that people see their childhoods, either as perfect or completely imperfect, and I'm in the category of people that ... I see- I see it as perfect. And, you know, I grew up feral, which is to- to say we had all of the outdoors to ourselves as children and children's kingdoms were different than the adult kingdom and they didn't often mix and that was really, um, I think, strengthening for kids, about identity forming in nature with others in your age group or older as well. And so we, um, we kind of wandered the landwash looking for what the ocean had coughed up overnight and, um, we were a menace to the various kinds of animals that lived on the island and we made friends with rocks and it was a life lived outside. I mean, if you were inside, most people's mom would say, "Are you sick? Like, why are you here?" And, uh, and- and so I- I grew up with that deep sense of belonging to a place and having tuberculosis. So I was, uh, in a- in a sanatorium for a year when I was between five and a half and six and a half, and what I remember ... I mean, I remember a lot about that, but what I remember most is the pain of being separated from place.
Melissa Biggs Bradley What about your family? Were you able to see each other? Or how far away were they from you?
Zita Cobb And the answer is too far to visit. I didn't see, uh, any of my family and I was there for just under a year. Um, I do remember the day ... And it ... I mean, as a child, I felt ... Well, I thought I'd been sent to a reform school or something 'cause I didn't understand why I was there and why I'd been left. Um, as an adult, I look back on that now and realize how difficult that must've been for my father, who dropped me off and walked away. Uh,
I remember the day he came back to get me and I really wasn't sure who he was, uh, because, you know, a year when you're five and six is a long time. Um, but yeah, it was, uh, it- it was a pretty terrible thing to be separated for that long at such a young age. But the pain that's lingered with me is ... And I think the thing that scarred me ... 'Cause I think I got reunited with family fairly quickly, you know, that ... They ... There was- there was cake when you come home and you kind of pick up and carry on, but I somehow felt I'd been exiled from the place. That took time, actually, to- to re- reattach.
Melissa Biggs Bradley Yeah. And we do create bonds with places that are incredibly important for us and, obviously, that's something you identified in an early age, which sometimes takes other people longer to recognize, sort of the longing for a place or the sense of belonging to a place.
Zita Cobb Yeah. I've been lucky 'cause I was born in a place I feel I belong and not everyone's born in the place they belong and sometimes, much later in life, people find the place that resonates with their souls and then that's a gift.
Melissa Biggs Bradley Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Now, how do you think that the experience of being removed and in that sanatorium shaped you later in life?
Zita Cobb For sure, it brought me really early independence because while I say I reattached with family, I- I think it- it made me, uh, kind of feel I need to navigate the world, uh, from a really strong internal place because a year in a sanatorium wasn't exactly a lord of the flies, but it had its moments (laughs) like that. And, uh, so I think it- it's given me that, but it- it also has given me ... Gave me a- a- a kind of new understanding, an early understanding, of what it means to muck along with people that you don't actually get along with and that, somehow, you just gotta go forward.
Melissa Biggs Bradley And I'm curious, because you were a very successful woman in technology and finance world dominated by men, even more so then than it is now, and, you know, you obviously had a lot of confidence in working with people that are at least very different from you. So, aside from having a really strong independent sense of self, what do you think were the critical aspects that you had, either from early life experiences or from other ones, that equipped you to do that?
Zita Cobb I think, importantly, I grew up in a house ... There were seven children. Uh, they were ... There were six boys and one girl. So, I think that prepared me for the business world because you had all those brothers and I- and I think I just arrived in the business world thinking that they were just grown up versions of these same people. And the best advice I could give any- any woman trying to navigate in a- in a what is a male- dominated world is if you treat them like brothers, they won't behave like bros.
Melissa Biggs Bradley (laughs) That's very funny. And switching from work to your travels, I know, in the '80s, you took time off to travel and you traveled through Africa for a few months. What inspired you to do that? And how did that experience shape your perspective?
Zita Cobb You know, in my, uh, growing up years, when I was around 10 on Fogo Island, it was a- a- a really terrible time because the island, uh, suffered from the collapse of the- the cod stocks and the cod fishery. And Fogo Island, I should clarify, is, um, one of Canada's oldest settlements and was settled by English and Irish people that, uh, came, starting in 1600, so I am a descendant from those people. And we made a living for 350 years going out on the ocean in little, tiny wooden boats and taking cod, just enough to get by, uh, and then, of course, the industrialization of the fishery happened in ... Starting in the '60s and by the '70s, that- that way of life was over and Fogo Islanders have adapted i- in different ways and have adapted our fishery. But for me, I think that left this indelible kind of mark around h- how do people hold on? And there is a really big world out there that is gonna come and get us. And so ... And my father, who was a fisherman, uh, he really in ... Was insistent that I study business because he said it was ... It's a business problem that people took ... Came on big ships and took just about every last fish out of the water. That's a- that's a business logic, not a- not a econ ... Not an ecological logic. So he said, "You better understand how this business works 'cause it's gonna eat us alive." So I studied business and- and in my career, I went to ... I mean, I was responsible for mergers and acquisitions in the last years of my career and saw communities all over the world that were being hollowed out by, basically, business decisions that didn't favor communities. In fact, sometimes, were downright hostile to communities. So I think, then, the lens I sort of see the world is how do we live? How do we humans live together? How do we live together better? And what is the connection between our economic order and our social order? And so, for me, travel's been about that. It's been about how do we make sense of this? And how do we ... 'Cause we have to reconcile economic logic and ecological logic and social logic, and that's probably what- what I'm most interested in.
Melissa Biggs Bradley Well, so, as a student of business and the economic equation, but someone who belongs in a community and an ecological one, have your travels helped you find what you think some of the keys to solving that are?
Zita Cobb Absolutely. I ... A- a- and you talked about a trip, um, which I think was 1988, '89. It was actually quite a long trip, it was almost a year up through the middle of the African continent and that was e- e- enormously mind- shifting for me, uh, especially being in Rwanda. So this is Rwanda before the genocide. Rwanda is a country that has no ocean and, you know, the- the communities there are- are- are- are deep and, um, and longstanding. I mean, have suffered from political rearrangements that were not of their own, uh, choosing. But watching what meant something to someone in a Rwandan village and being able to see the direct relationship between what actually meant something to, say, my father on Fogo Island, which was understanding that, you know, for people, it's about dignity and- and dignity is tied to some sense of agency. And with that kind of a lens, you think about your business activities in different ways. I think going, uh, to the north coast of Spain, to the Basque Country of Spain, was hugely educational for me to see how business and culture are not ... They can be mutually reinforcing if it's done with nuance and intelligence.
Melissa Biggs Bradley What's an example of how that works in the Basque Country?
Zita Cobb You can't have- you can't have, um, a traveler or a visitor or- or culture experience without it strengthening the business heft or depth of the communities you're in. I- In- in other words, everything you eat is in a- is in a business model that's made out of the place. It ... I mean, I think there's- there's too much in the world of kind of generic, pre-packaged stuff served up for the purpose of business, which doesn't do anything for culture. Whereas, I think my experience of the Spanish Basques, at least at the time I was there, which is probably more 15 years ago now, they understood that business is a tool to strengthen culture. And so in the way they- they hosted, in the way they practice hospitality or serve food, it's- it's deeply cultural and really smart business.
Melissa Biggs Bradley Okay. And so in understanding that, is that what you took back, in a way, when you thought about opening Fogo and how to create hospitality in a way that would serve the community for the long-term?
Zita Cobb Exactly. That is exactly, Melissa, what- what we were trying to do was ... I couldn't, of course, put another leg on the economy to compliment the fishery, which is still the most important thing on Fogo Island because it's first ... It's the- the primary place, our culture's derived from that. Uh, but to put that other leg on the economy in a way that intersects with our past and is built of the past, but is also infused with ways of adding to knowledge because nobody wants to live in an 18th century fishing village, uh, least of all, you know, young people. And so, you know, it's finding the ands, the A-N-Ds. How do you hold onto the past and how are you contemporary in the same time? And there is no better way to express culture than through hospitality because it touches all aspects of our humanity. It's everything from what do we eat, how do we welcome you, how do we take care of you, and in what bed are you sleeping, and where was that bed made? And because we are both builders, we make furniture, we make textiles and all of these things are expressions of place and culture that you can put into an inn. And so we think about the inn as a vessel to put what we know and as a platform to learn what other people know, uh, so that we all know a little more as a result of having come together.
Melissa Biggs Bradley And how did the islanders greet the concept from, you know, the beginning, but then, also, in how it's evolved?
Zita Cobb We- we have this expression in Newfoundland, which I think was first said by our ... One of our great writers, Michael Crummey, which is, uh, "We Newfoundlanders cheat disappointment by not expecting anything." So in- (laughs) in the beginning ... You know, 'cause it's ... You have to be a stubborn spirit to survive out of the North Atlantic, so that's ... We found that to be convenient. And so when we were starting to talk about what could we do and how would we do it, um, I- I think everything is gauzy in- in some ways. In the very beginning, there were probably 10 percent of the people who thought this was the worst idea they ever heard, 10 percent who thought this is the best idea they ever heard, and the other 80 percent who thought, you know, I don't know, is this really gonna happen? And what's it got to do with me? And, you know, some degree of skepticism. And I think as time's gone on, because we've kind of built the inn out of our own DNA and the fabric of the place, we spent years mucking around in old houses trying to understand how did people build these houses, and- and what- what was the attitude they had, and how do we translate that? So I think in that whole process of making, that 80 percent came to understand it more deeply, we came to understand it together. Um, and probably, if you go to the island today, the- the original 10 percent who thought it was the worst idea they ever heard probably still think that. Uh, I don't spend a lot of energy on those people 'cause that's just a big sink. Uh, but the others ... You know, most people on the island have some deeper understanding of it, certainly than they had a decade ago, and about a third of the households on the island are involved in some way with our projects economically, so it's, um ... And the funny thing is, uh, one of our staff members said the other day, she was looking at her daughter and her daughter's seven, I think, and she said, "You know, in ... To her, the inn has always been there. Like, it's just a part of the place."
Melissa Biggs Bradley And how big is the population of Fogo?
Zita Cobb We are ... Depends on who you ask, but I think the last census puts us around 2600. Um, we're somewhere between 2500 and 3000. My neighbor claims to have counted everybody and he thinks we're, like, 3000.
Melissa Biggs Bradley (laughs)
Zita Cobb Um, and ... But the island itself is actually quite l- large. It's four times ... I think you're in Manhattan today, Melissa. Uh.
Melissa Biggs Bradley I am.
Zita Cobb Four times the size of Manhattan.
Melissa Biggs Bradley Wow. And what are some of the challenges that the inhabitants are facing today? I mean, separate from COVID, but just in general, ecologically and economically.
Zita Cobb I would say, not ... In some ways, not different, uh, than a community anywhere in the sense of, uh, how does the local belong to the global? And ... Because I think it's not an option for anyone to be just discrete and separate from the global, and so how do you belong without getting flattened? And- and that ... And- and so we- we, um, on Fogo Island now, have broadband and so, you know, all of our kids are as connected as, you know, kids in Manhattan. And what are they getting from that? And how are they participating in that? And how do we keep their- their core, their north star, so oriented, uh, at home, uh, while they're out there, you know, mucking around on social media or whatever that goes on online? And so, I mean, those questions, we are trying to solve. Uh, well, solve. We- we'll never solve them, we'll always work on them. Um, we are growing our population and so, strangely, we have a housing crisis because younger people are moving back to work in our projects, for example, and we don't- we don't have enough quality housing. We have some old houses that are just not useful anymore. Um, and, you know, we don't have- we don't have proper childcare. I mean, we ... The same things that communities need as a sort of fundamental infrastructure to be able to live dignified lives, to be able to have a strong community economy, so those kinds of things. The fishery, um, i- is still ... It k- keeps adapting and evolving. Our relationship with the ocean, as humans, has been dreadful. Um, I think coastal communities like us are- are kind of at the forefront of that. We've adapted our fisheries, uh, to be absolutely, uh ... Well, maybe more like our old-fashioned fisheries. Uh, but finding markets for ... You know, from Fogo Island all the way over the world, physical markets that we ship things to, uh, that's always a challenge.
Melissa Biggs Bradley And you started this as part of the Shorefast Foundation. Can you talk about the thinking behind that, and why they're so integrated and why that's so important?
Zita Cobb Mm-hmm (affirmative). So our fishery, uh, today is owned in a business model called a co-operative, which basically means that the fisherman and the people who work at the fish plant own our fish business. And I think, especially for small communities, it really matters who owns what. It matters to how decisions are made, certainly. So we want to create a set of businesses that would be, in effect, owned by the community in a different shape model than a co-op, but a similar result. And so we started with setting up the foundation, which is a registered charity of Canada, and we took the money from our careers, my- my brothers and I, and put that into the charity and being of sound mind, we spent it all to build economic assets, like the inn. And so we basically are organized in- in a way that has, on one side of the ledger, social businesses, the biggest one being the inn, we have a furniture shop as well and we have a little fish business that sends hand line cod to places like Toronto and sells it to lovely restaurants. On the other side, we have a whole, uh, group of charitable initiatives, the biggest one being something called Fogo Island Arts, and those charitable initiatives h- have to do with knowledge, preserving knowledge in some of the heritage restorations we've done, in old building projects we've done. Um, adding to knowledge. For example, art is about knowledge and sharing knowledge. And so we run our businesses, including the inn, as social or community businesses. We target a 15 percent profit. We don't always get it. We're certainly not gonna get it this year with all that's going on. And then we take those profits or surpluses, they go back to the charity and they get invested in the charitable initiatives. So, it creates a kind of a circle. And, you know, the goal is that, you know, my brothers and I can be dead and gone and the community itself still owns and controls, has agency over its own economic assets.
Melissa Biggs Bradley Okay. So can you explain your economic nutrition plan and how that is also part of this grand vision?
Zita Cobb Yes. So it's ... I will start by saying, mostly, it's about how we see money and how we see business. And I- I think that the- the greatest business leaders are people who see business and see money as tools, as tools that we can use in- in intelligent ways to create far more sustainable value than just more money. And- and so when we think about money and what it's capable of doing, really important that we all understand where does it go? And I think we live, and this is a part of the globalization problem, I guess, in some ways, we- we go out, we spend 10 dollars on something, it's almost impossible to know where that money went until you really think about that. That is actually a problem that is not that hard to solve. So we came up with something which we called an economic nutrition mark, and it looks exactly like the food nutrition label and it basically tells you where the money goes that you just spent. So for a stay at the inn, it breaks down how much goes to the people who work there, which is just under 50 percent, which what else ... Where else did the money go, if not to the people who work there? And what goes into supplies and how much goes into commissions or how much goes ... And then we show you the profit. And then we can also tell you, geographically, where the money goes. How much money stays on Fogo Island, how much money goes to Newfoundland, how much money goes to Canada, how much money goes outside. So these are just, to me, things that, as consumers or as travelers, we should know that 'cause I think it allows us to make decisions that align our spending with our values.
Melissa Biggs Bradley And have other people in the industry ... I'm- I'm really curious in some ways about how you ended up in the hospitality industry because I can't imagine that was initially part of the plan. But since you are in that industry, I wonder, has it been something that has been adopted into that model by a lot of other people?
Zita Cobb We're sort of at the beginning of that process of getting it out in the world. We actually are in the early days of building some kind of a platform for community economics so that we can get those kinds of tools, uh, on that platform and start to engage with other communities and other companies that are interested in how do you strengthen community economies. Like, you know, our vision of the world is that the- the economy includes communities, it includes companies, it includes governments. Um, but it's- it's odd to me that not enough of us, not enough people in the world see communities as valid economic actors. And in many cases, our communities are not ready to- to behave in that way 'cause they need to develop their capacity. So it's in the early days, but we would like ... Next time, it'll be ... If everybody listening to us today, Melissa, goes out to buy something, whatever that thing is, a T-shirt, a- a blazer, ask the- the merchant if they have the economic nutrition mark for it. And if they don't, which they won't, uh, you would need to say, "Well, you should. And it's not that hard. Please go to this website called Shorefast or to Fogo Island Inn and you'll see how it's done."
Melissa Biggs Bradley You know, I mean, it's fascinating, the way you think about it. And- and I think, in some ways, the hospitality industry could and should be one of the first to adopt this on a wider scale than other industries. I- I don't know if you agree.
Zita Cobb I very much agree because I think in the ... I ... Let's call it the ... In the old, old days of hospitality, you would be, I don't know, traveling through the countryside of Japan and you'd be staying at a ryokan that was owned by some local family, the hospitality was deeply local, deeply personal, deeply cultural. And then I think travel was one of those industries that got globalized fairly early and we had too, and still have, too many examples of, you know, let's say hospitality establishments that are generic copies of something from, I don't know where, some pre-packaged idea of- of hospitality, uh, that, you know, plops itself down on a beach somewhere and effectively acts like a vacuum cleaner to suck economic wealth out of that community and, you know, leave a few pennies behind for the local people. That isn't good enough. And I'll tell you, it's not just not enough for local communities, it's not good enough for us as travelers because in many of those cases, I think we come away overstimulated and undernourished.
Melissa Biggs Bradley I completely agree with you. And, again, it's as you said, it ... All of this is so interconnected and it's from the community that you discover the humanity of a place. And I think that what we're looking for, as travelers, I mean, that's what it is. So I wanna ask you, because I know you've incorporated art very much into the way you've thought about the experience that people should have at Fogo Island, can you talk a little bit about the importance of art and artistic creation on Fogo?
Zita Cobb I think it's what you s ... You just said about meaning. Like, we are meaning making machines, we humans, and I think a part of travel ... And- and I'll come to art through that. Apart of ... Not apart ... Like, maybe the most important part of travel is to get a shift in perspective and to try and understand the world from the- the perch of somebody else, which is why, you know, being involved, in a meaningful way, in the communities you're visiting is the point, uh, I think. It's not about ... We have this ... We jokingly say it's not about giving back to yourself, in some ways, travel is about being given back to yourself. Um, and it- it has the potential to resensitize us to the nuances of the real world, of the natural world, for example, and culture is nothing more than a response to nature. So people who have deep cultural knowledge have learned it from that natural setting, and that's the ... That's what we- we need and thirst for, even if we don't express it in quite that way. And artists are ... I mean, they work from first principles. What an artist does is try to make sense of what it means to be alive, you know, and great artists are people who- are people who can express that in a tangible way that can touch and shift others. And, I mean, the process of making art is ... I mean, it's very difficult to explain, but it ... We- we all intuitively know it's about making sense of being human, and I think what art does and what artists do is they point to things. They point to things that are important, they point to things ... You know, they're a little bit like canaries in mines in some ways, you know, they- they let us know what's happening, uh, before we can perhaps coherently make sense of it our- ourselves. And so I think art- art belongs in every life and- and it exists in every community, and being able to intersect with it, I think, is a ... Is part of meaning making.
Melissa Biggs Bradley Yeah. And I would say, in listening to you talk about the true nature of hospitality, it's the same thing. I mean, a culture, when they welcome you in a distinct way or they share their rituals around food or around bathing or around welcoming the day, any of those things, if they're truly distinct to nature and to a specific place, that is also connecting you back into meaning and into your met ... Your humanity. So there are different higher forms and simpler forms of the- the same thing, which is making meaning of our existence, right?
Zita Cobb Exactly. And finding joy because there's no joy ... It's finding knowledge ... There's no joy in the generic at all. That's ... A- and we've created too many generic, copycat things on the planet.
Melissa Biggs Bradley So Fogo Island Inn is a unique piece of art in and of itself. It's really architecturally outstanding and, I mean, the angles and the stilts, it's just stunning. So can you talk a little bit about that and why you made certain choices with it? I'd love to hear your design philosophy, I guess.
Zita Cobb Mm. I- I really believe we need to pay more attention, we humans, generally, to design and the opportunities for design to bring attention to the- the things that have inherent value. And when we were thinking about what- what kind of a building this inn might be, um, we probably spent a nanosecond thinking that it should be some kind of updated copy of the vernacular architecture of Fogo Island, but once we hired the architect, who is, um ... His name is Todd Saunders. He grew up in Newfoundland. Very ... He grew up in Gander, quite close to Fogo Island, and educated in Canada, but his architecture practice is in Norway. And he, very early on, uh, as a Newfoundland person, said, "Zita, if we just make some kind of updated copy of the traditional, you're basically admitting that we have no new ideas." And, you know, one of the challenges for remote and rural places is there is a tendency to see them as a bit [inaudible 00:32:05] or backwards, which isn't true. I mean, I think rural places are places of innovation just as our cities are, uh, we just don't as often have access to great designers and architects to help us express. And so our goal was to ... A- and actually, the design brief for Todd's work was simple. It was you have to figure out how to express in contemporary architecture 'cause we rural people are contemporary people too. How to express, in rural- in- in rural architect ... In- in contemporary architecture, what we have learned in 400 years of clinging to this rock. And- and so the inn is made of wood. I mean, it's got a steel frame, but it's made of wood because we make things out of wood. It isn't ma ... It's designed in an X plan, which captures the- the ands. Like, we think life is made of ands, A-N-Ds, or it's better when it's made of ands, not ors. And so it is about the past, it's also about the present and the future. It's for people from away who come to visit, it's for people from the island. And so when you think about the ands, I think the building carries it and it's ... We- we jokingly say it's a Trojan horse, you know, the building is a Trojan horse for a set of ideas. And we knew that we were ... You know that old expression, you cannot cross a chasm in several little jumps. We knew that we got one shot at this and Todd said, "That is a stunning sight. We have to knock the ball really far out of the park with this," and I think he did.
Melissa Biggs Bradley And how is its popularity? Because it really has become a travel icon in many ways. How has that surprised you at all?
Zita Cobb It did and it also ... You know, it's funny. When you think about, uh, tourism and tourism marketing, let's say for a moment, we try not to instrumentalize our people in our marketing and selling. I mean, like, that's what you should discover when you come 'cause otherwise, we- we, you know, we risk making caricatures of ourselves. That's the lovely thing about a building, you can't- you can't really hurt its feelings in the same way and so it sort of ... It's- it's like a lighthouse for us, you know, it- it- it sends a strong signal. Uh, and I think people who encounter the building, even in just images, feel that it- it's not accidental, it's deeply intentional. And so it's like our ambassador. We send it out in a- in a image and it- it draws your attention and once we have your attention, then we can have a conversation like this.
Melissa Biggs Bradley You mentioned that there are misconceptions around remote and rural places and people, and can you talk a little bit about what some of those misconceptions are and sort of how, in some ways, Fogo has, for the people who visited, really disrupted that?
Zita Cobb Yeah. I- I think the misconceptions, and- and this is probably a- a global thing, is that, you know, people who live in the countryside or in small towns are- are somehow simpler or happier or, um, or right-wing. I don't- I don't know. I mean, (laughs) I think there's that. Uh, and certainly in this plague of populism that has been on the planet in the last five to 10 years, uh, you know, I know that there are political differences. But when you come to look and- and- and to be with people, whether they're in a remote community in Newfoundland or a remote community in Poland, uh, rural people are no less complicated, uh, no less pained, no less- no less joyful because ... They may express differently. Um, and another thing is it's sort of about culture. And when I moved from Fogo Island to Ottawa, where I am now, and I went to university in Ottawa, when I was leaving, um, you know, this man said to me, he said, "Oh, must be lots of culture up there because all the national museums are here and all of that." I said, "Well, I- I don't think there's any more culture, I think there are more representations of culture, which is in our great museums and galleries. But culture is that lived experience of a human in nature. That's how culture is evolved. And that's ... That richness is in all those small places across this country and across your country."
Melissa Biggs Bradley Absolutely. And one of the things that travel to places like Fogo hopefully does is disrupt those misconceptions and correct them for a lot of people. So, Zita, you've done a lot of traveling and I know you've done quite an impressive amount of sailing and I was curious to know what inspired you to do that?
Zita Cobb I- I think the fact that I am descended from people who came across the ocean from England and Ireland on wooden boats and I spent my, you know, growing up years on Fogo Island looking out to the ocean and kind of wondering what's over there. And- and from being a young child, I always felt well, when I'm- when I'm big, I'm going to get a boat and I'm gonna go across the way they came. And so I think that dream always lived with me. And when you grow up on a little island ... I mean, I did have one year where I was really afraid the island was gonna sink for no good reason at all. I mean, like, it's a- it's a huge hunk of granite, it's not about to sink anytime soon. Um, but just, uh ... We always knew. I mean, this is a ... There ... In fact, the, uh, provincial song of Newfoundland is about being surrounded by water, you know, thank God we're surrounded by water and always just very aware of the watery world. And it's a terrifying thing when those big North Atlantic storms come in. And- and I think, you know, with the ocean, you were either frightened of it, as my mother was, always, uh, and every time my dad went fishing, for her, this was just ... Which was every day, except Sunday, uh, it was a time of terror. And she lost her mother to drowning and her sister to drowning. Like, that was just a common thing. And so I- I kind of understood from an early age that you either have to get out on the darn thing and learn to be with it or you're always gonna be afraid of it.
Melissa Biggs Bradley And did that time ... I forget exactly how long it was, but did that help you master the sense of the ocean? I'd love to know how that changed your relationship with the ocean.
Zita Cobb Yeah. I lived on the boat for five years. Almost five years.
Melissa Biggs Bradley Oh, wow.
Zita Cobb Yeah. It- it was ... And- and during that time, I didn't have a home on land and it- it absolutely did, um ... I mean, my father brought us up to always say you should never be afraid of the wind. I mean ... And Fogo Island can be a windy place, especially in certain months, and so, you know ... And sometimes you think it's just gonna tear your house down, but it never really does. And- and h- his advice was always, "You gotta learn to work with it because it's ... It is your friend," and I- and I think learning- learning that, um ... I mean, I have a- a very healthy respect for the ocean and I would never take it for granted, but it's not benign and I think that's the thing about wilderness. I mean, it's ... The ocean is the oceans, um, and, ultimately, there's just one 'cause they're all connected. Uh, it's, like, part of the last wilderness on the planet and we should go there with great respect. But I- I tell you, there is ... You never feel, or at least I never feel, more alive than when I have a boat under my feet that's moving.
Melissa Biggs Bradley Yeah. And what was your route for that five years? I mean, how did you choose which parts of the ocean on which to spend your time?
Zita Cobb Yeah. The- the boat was built in Florida and I picked up the boat in July of 2001. Now, you know what happened in 2001, right? 9/11. We sailed from Florida, with a big- a big lift from the Gulf Stream, north to New York City and arrived in New York City in mid-August of 2001. And left New York ... And- and anchored in front of the Statue of Liberty, spent, I- I don't know, three or four nights and then we went up Long
Island Sound. When we came back, it was September 18 or 19. You're no longer anchoring at the Statue of Liberty. Ev ... The world had changed. And so from that journey and spending the time in Chesapeake, sailed to the Caribbean, which is quite a long journey, and then went up and down the whole, uh, coast of South America for a year and then crossed over to Europe. And, I mean, that ... It takes a long time to learn how to- (laughs) how to sail enough to take on an ocean crossing. And then spent, um, a year and a half or- or more, um, in the Mediterranean and all ... You know, and in the Ionian up- up against the coast of Turkey. Yeah. And what I ... And I think the thing about it is your ... The speed of life on a sailboat is the right scale, at least for me. Uh, and you arrive in places that are communities. And when you arrive on a sailboat in a place, it's a very different thing than- than arriving on a jet plane. Like, I think you're ready to be in a place if you arrive that way.
Melissa Biggs Bradley Yeah. And were there favorite places over the course of that trip that you visited?
Zita Cobb Yeah. Some of the lesser known Greek islands, which, to me ... Like, Astypalea, to me, it's like Newfoundland, uh, with warmer temperatures in a way. Like, really kind of barren places that, you know, people have even longer attachments to than we do in Newfoundland. Islands. I mean, islands are places we know where dreams and truths have outlived time and ... Just islands. I think I see the world as a whole series of islands, some are bigger than others.
Melissa Biggs Bradley And so did you go, then, from Europe around Africa by boat as well as- as Asia?
Zita Cobb So I have not completed a circumnavigation.
Melissa Biggs Bradley Okay.
Zita Cobb Uh, came back across to North America. And then ... By that time, I had started a project in Rwanda that had to do with radio education and I was starting to spend time there and ... Sailing, actually, I- I- I realize, I had this idea I could do other things and sail. You're either sailing or you're not. I- I- I haven't figured out a multiplex with that.
Melissa Biggs Bradley And do you still sail regularly?
Zita Cobb I don't. I find it's sad to be on a sailboat that isn't going beyond the buoy. I always wanna go beyond the buoy. I- I like, you know, blue water sailing and ...
Melissa Biggs Bradley So from your own personal travels, if you had to summarize what the greatest gift of travel is that you've received or what you've learned the most from it, what would you say that is?
Zita Cobb I- I think it's this question we've been talking about is ... Like, I think the big- the big question we all need to figure out, especially now, is how do the parts belong to the whole? And- and if you think about the whole of human life or the who- the whole of our home planet, um, we had to get the right plumbing and the right connective tissue, uh, that is more generative for how we live. And I think that shift in perspective that comes from travel, uh, helps you hold your own beliefs a little more lightly, which is healthy, and- and I think just helps you imagine how the connective tissue could be improved so that the whole exists in each part and each part exists in the whole. And I- I know that sounds maybe a bit abstract, but I- I think just getting to know the parts helps us appreciate the whole.
Melissa Biggs Bradley No, I think you're absolutely right. And for people who've not visited Fogo Island, why do you think it should be on their travel wishlist?
Zita Cobb I think ... There is a Newfoundland musician named Alan Doyle, who- who grew up near Saint John's, and when he came to Fogo Island for the first time, which is not that far from Saint John's, he said, "It's like a place you can't believe, but always hoped existed." And what I think he meant by that is, and- and many islands are like this, um, it's so complete in a way and- and you feel ... You can glimpse ... Like, I think everybody, when you're seven or eight years old, probably have a moment where you feel whole, you feel- you feel right in the world, like it- it all makes sense for a moment, uh, and I think that you can glimpse that in a place like Fogo Island. Um, I think it is a place of profound hospitality and it's a place ... Because it's- it's in the Labrador current, uh, you know, every year, half of Greenland breaks off and comes down on top of us and so you get to see the- the icebergs and the, you know, the pack ice that comes down. Like- like, nature, wilderness presses up against you. Like, there is ... It's totally unmediated relationship with not a benign nature. Like, it's a powerful, powerful thing and I think that makes you feel like a creature of time. It- it kinda ... And the other thing to remember is that the geology of the island is actually quite, uh, remarkable as well. The rocks are 400 million years old and have ... And we have a geologist in the residence program for the ... Because it's so interesting, geologically. And I think that no better way to get over yourself than to be placed in geologic time, and you feel that there. Like, you cannot sit on these rocks and think that you are the beginning and end of all life, and the minute you get that in your head, well, then, you feel better anyway. (laughs)
Melissa Biggs Bradley Well, and that combined with the weather there. I mean, there's that wonderful Flaubert quote where he essentially says that travel makes us realize just how small we are.
Zita Cobb Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes, it absolutely does. And- and how, if we choose it, we are connected to so many and so much. We're just a part of it, a part of something.
Melissa Biggs Bradley So, Zita, I wanna talk about some travel tips for Fogo Island for our listeners who might be now itching to plan a trip there, uh, as soon as they're able to. So can we dig a little deeper for a minute? I know you refer to it, for instance, as having seven seasons and I'd love to hear more about that.
Zita Cobb Well, there are the four you would've heard of ... And this came from my dad as well because when we got tangled up with the mainland ... Like, in his lifetime, he really wasn't involved with the mainland. Uh, but when we- we started to get tangled up with the mainland, uh, he heard people talking about four seasons and he would, over supper, say, "I don't understand how they get that. Like, how ..." And then we started, as a family, counting the seasons and we were up 17 and still going. And, uh ... And- and, to him, the seasons were about what was he doing in each of those at the different times of year. Anyway, when we were making the inn, we realized we can't possibly describe 17 seasons and so we settled on seven, which are the four you would know, plus, um, trap berth season, which is maybe the hardest one to explain. It's the month of June. June belongs ... In- in Newfoundland, it belongs neither to summer, nor to spring, uh, but it, importantly, was ... Is the season that the cod fishery begins, and a trap berth is where a fisherman is allowed to fish in the ocean because they ... The fishermen, generally, agree you're gonna fish there, I'm gonna fish here and we're not gonna bother each other. So trap berth month in summer. And then come ... The 15th of September is probably my favorite season, which is berry season. We have 26 kinds of edible wild berries on the island and the most important of those are partridgeberries and they are ready around the 15th of September up until the end of October. So, most people are out on the hills picking berries and wandering, wandering the barrens. And, uh, then we go into late fall, winter and then we come to pack ice season, so that's the third one you won't know, and that's when the- the ice comes down from Greenland and followed by the icebergs. It comes into the harbors and bays and it's- it's multiyear ice that's formed, uh, in the north and it moves in with the tide and the wind, it moves around, it grinds together. It's like living in a sculpture garden that moves, and it can be there in the morning and gone by the evening. Hugely dynamic time. And I think it was, uh, Alistair MacLeod who said that an iceberg is like a piece of the moon that fell into the sea. It ... You ... It can't be explained, you just need to experience it. So the three you don't know are trap berth season, berry season and, um, pack ice season.
Melissa Biggs Bradley And what about wildlife on the island? You have caribou, don't you?
Zita Cobb So caribou ... We have a herd of caribou, or herds of caribou, on the island that were brought to the island, uh, when I ... In that time, when I was 10, and- and I think the government of Newfoundland thought we were gonna starve. Uh, but there were two reasons they brought the caribou, because they wanted the herd to grow so we could hunt them, but also these are woodland caribou that have been under pressure in other parts of Newfoundland and the conditions on Fogo Island are ideal for woodland caribou. So, we live with caribou that wander the island.
Melissa Biggs Bradley Can you see them at all times of the year?
Zita Cobb You can, uh, but in the summer, they're harder to see. They ... Because in- in the heat, they have the good sense to go get shade and so they tend to retreat into the center of the island, where you're less likely to see them. Um, the best time to see them is in the winter and spring. They eat, um, a lichen. We call it caribou moss, but it's not a moss, it's a lichen. And that ... They come looking for that in the winter and they can find that more- more readily, uh, in the shallow snow on the coast because they can beat through the shallow snow. The deep snow, uh, that's on the interior in the winter makes it difficult for them to get to the ... What they eat. And they change ... Their coats change with- with the seasons. Okay, it doesn't change seven times, to be clear, but- but there is a dark and a lighter coat.
Melissa Biggs Bradley Amazing. Okay. And- and food.
Zita Cobb And food. Oh, my goodness. The food journey of the inn has been super rich. We have fed ourselves and fed ourselves well on that island for all those years by foraging, fishing and farming. Some hunting. And our goal with the inn was to build on that, but then to extend to the contemporary, to take the cultural knowledge of food and build on it. Uh, we try to restrict ourselves, um, to the ingredients that are within our reach, locally, and to our great delight, uh, we have discovered all kinds of things that, traditionally, we never ate. Uh, I mean, just in the berry kingdom ... My mother would, you know, tell you, "These are the 26 kinds of berries you can eat and all the rest of them are poison berries," and it turns out they're not poison, people just didn't know what they were. And, you know, and all of the herbs that grow along the seashore. And so ... And, obviously, you can see that the presentation is- is quite contemporary. We try ... We ... Finally, we settled on a rule ... I mean, we spent some time thinking maybe we shouldn't have wine because, you know, this place never had wine. And then we thought ... And it actually came from my brother, who said, "You will never be happy if you don't- if you don't accept 20 percent imperfection because things you accept as imperfection is actually part of the richness." And so we- we kind of now have this rule that 80 percent of what we serve should be from the place and 20 percent can come from away because that enriches it. Wi ... So we have wine. Don't be alarmed.
Melissa Biggs Bradley And if someone is coming for the first time, which season do you recommend? Or is that like picking your favorite child?
Zita Cobb It is a bit like picking your favorite child. (laughs) But I would- I would come in September for the berries, late September. I- I just think you- you're still ... The wind is in the west then, um, and so it's just the most pleasant time to be out on the hills. Like, I'm not a warm temperature person. I mean, a couple summers ago, we had an exceptionally hot summer, I mean, for bi ... For Newfoundland standards. So it was, I don't know, high 80s in fahrenheit. Um, and, you know, we thought my goodness gracious, like, this is just too much. (laughs) This is not what we're accustomed to. I mean, we're more used to 80 in the summer. And, uh, so then come September, it's more like 70, so, you know, you need a little light coat.
Melissa Biggs Bradley And the last question for you, can you explain to us how to get to Fogo Island, the logistics? I mean, let's say if we were coming from New York, how would we go to Fogo Island from New York? What's the best way?
Zita Cobb Well, you could sail to us and we love to see a light coming into the harbor, but there are faster ways to get to us. Um, and I would say two- two different ways. If you're coming ... I'll assume that you're coming from outside of Newfoundland, um, the most direct way would be to come to Gander and the- the entry point ... Or entry airport to get to Gander is Halifax, which is in Nova Scotia, which is kind of a hub for Atlantic Canada, and then you catch an Air Canada flight from Halifax to Gander and we, uh, can pick you up in Gander. It's an hour drive to the ferry, uh, and the ferry ride's about an hour and then you're 20 minutes, uh, from the inn. Uh, some people come to Gander and decide to charter a- a- a plane to come over or helicopter over and especially in iceberg season, that's an amazing thing to do because you're flying over icebergs. And by helicopter, I think it's about 25 minutes.
Zita Cobb If you come to capital of Newfoundland, Saint John's, which is, in and of itself, a worthy ... Very worthy destination, it's ... Well, we- we fight a little bit with some of our, um, friends in Quebec about which is the oldest city in North America or in- or in Canada, we'll start with, but Saint John's is one of the oldest, uh, let's say, cities and, uh, it is a ... It's a small but mighty city that [inaudible 00:53:46] on the ocean and you can come from Saint John's and drive out to our ferry, which is about a- a four and a half hour drive.
Melissa Biggs Bradley Well, thank you so much, Zita.
Zita Cobb Well, I like to do nothing more than be on Fogo Island, second best is talking about it. Thank you and thank you, Melissa, for having me.
Melissa Biggs Bradley I find it just fascinating always and I can't wait to hopefully do this in person on Fogo sooner ... Well, at least within the year, let's say.
Zita Cobb We'll go berry picking, Melissa.
Melissa Biggs Bradley I would love it. Okay, take care.
As much as I love to roam the world and travel everywhere, I have deep respect and admiration for people like Zita, who've traveled everywhere and then gone back and invested in their roots and devoted themselves to sharing their home places with visitors. Next week, I'll introduce you to someone else who has a deep passion for her home country. We'll jump across the Atlantic and speak with Diana de Cadaval, a writer whose family goes back centuries in Portugal, and today she works to document and preserve her country's history and culture for future generations. She's also a duchess and her husband is both a prince and a duke. So we'll talk not only about her books and her love of Portugal, but about the role of aristocratic families, like hers, in the modern age, like ours, and more. I hope you'll join us.
Producer If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, rate and review it wherever you're listening. Send us your travel stories, lessons, tips and questions by emailing us at [email protected]. Head over to our website at www.indagare.com to learn more about how to join our community of passionate travelers and to check out our other virtual content. Lastly, find us on social media, @indagaretravel, for more travel content and updates.