Second 8esslon·Thirty-Fifth Legislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba

STANDING COMMI1TEE

on

MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS

40 Elizabeth II

Chairman Mrs. Louise Dacquay Constituencyof Seine River

VOL. XL No.4 -7 p.m., THURSDAY, JULY 18,1991

IG-8048 ISSN0713-956X Printedby theOfflce of the 0.-.s Printer, Provinceof Manitoba MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature

LIB - Liberal; NO- New Democrat; PC - Progressive Conservative

NAME CONSTITUENCY PARTY. ALCOCK, Reg Osborne LIB ASHTON, Steve Thompson NO BARRETT, Becky Wellington NO CARR, James Crescentwood LIB CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights LIB CERILLI, Marianne Radisson NO CHEEMA, Guizar The Maples LIB CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan NO CONNERY, Edward Portage Ia Prairie PC CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose PC DACQUAY, Louise Seine River PC DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell PC DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NO DOER, Gary Concordia NO DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden PC DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach PC DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. Riel PC EDWARDS, Paul St. James LIB ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside PC ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood PC EVANS, Ciif Interlake NO EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East NO FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo PC RNDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield PC FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley NO GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface LIB GILLESHAMMER, Harold,Hon. Minnedosa PC HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland NO HELWER, Edward R. Gimli PC HICKES, George Point Douglas NO LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster LIB LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas NO LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert PC MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NO MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris PC MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows NO McALPINE, Gerry SturgeonCreek PC McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West PC MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia PC MITCHELSON, Bonnie,Hon. River East PC NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere PC ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. Pembina PC PENNER, Jack Emerson PC PLOHMAN, John Dauphin NO PRAZNIK,Darr en, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC REID. Daryl Transcona NO REIMER, Jack Niakwa PC RENDER, Shirley St. Vital PC ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Gladstone PC ROSE, Bob Turtle Mountain PC SANTOS, Conrad Broadway NO STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC STORIE, Jerry AinAon NO SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye PC VODREY, Rosemary Fort Garry PC WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St. Johns NO WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River NO 121

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS

Thursday,July 18,1991

TIME-7p.m. *** LOCATION- Winnipeg, Manitoba Madam Chairman: Order, please. Would the CHAIRMAN - Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs please River) come to order. This committee is to hear thepublic representation on Bill 68, The City of Winnipeg 11 6 ATT ENDANCE- -QUORUM- Amendment Act (2). Members of the Committeepresent: I will first read the list of all presenters. If there is Hon. Messrs. Enns, Ernst, Hon. Mrs. anyone in the audience who wishes to make a Mitchelson presentation whose name I do not read, would you Mr. Carr, Mrs. Dacquay, Ms. Friesen, Messrs. please indicate to the clerk your intention to make Gaudry, Maloway, McAlpine, Rose, Mrs. representation?

Vodrey • (1905) WITNESSES: Number 1, Mr. Doug McGiffin, Winnipeg In the Doug McGiffin,Winnipeg In theNineties Nineties; 2, Mr. Ken Guilford, Private Citizen; 3, Councillor Roger Young, Pembina-RiverviewWard ; Ken Guilford, Private Citizen 4, Councillor George Fraser, Private Citizen; 5, Roger Young, Pembina-Riverview Ward, City CouncillorTerry Duguid,Miles MacDonnell Ward;6, of Winnipeg Councillor Peter Diamont, University Ward; 7, Ms. Shirley Lord, Private Citizen; 8, Councillor Glen George Fraser, Private Citizen Murray, River-Osborne Ward; 9, Mr. George Lapp, Peter Diamont, University Ward, City of Private Citizen; 10, Mr. Jim Mandryk, Private Winnipeg Citizen; 11, Mr. Gary Coopland, Private Citizen; 12, Shirley Lord, Private Citizen Mr. Grant Nordman, Private Citizen; 13, Mr. John Harrison, Private Citizen; 14, Mr. David Brown, Glen Murray, River-Osborne Ward, City of Private Citizen; 15, Mr. Mike O'Shaughnessy, Winnipeg Private Citizen; 16, Mr. Gordon Mackie, Private John Harrison, Private Citizen Citizen; 17, Mr. Bernie Wolfe, Private Citizen; 18, Mr. Glen Hewitt, St. Boniface-St. Vital Resident David Brown, Private Citizen Advisory Group; 19, Dr. Jim Shapiro, St. Germain Mike O'Shaughnessy, Private Citizen ResidentsAssociati on; 20, Mr. Kenneth Emberley, Glen Hewitt, St. BonHace-St. Vital Residents Private Citizen; 21, Mr. Frank Goldspink, Manitoba Advisory Group Communist Party; 22, Ms. Jean Miller-Usiskin, Private Citizen; and 23, Councillor Greg Selinger, Jim Shapiro, St. Germain Residents Tache Ward. Association Number 1, Mr. Doug McGiffin, Winnipeg In the Kenneth Emberley, Private Citizen Nineties. Welcome, Mr. McGHfin, if you would just Shirley Timm-Rudolph, Springfield Heights wait 30 seconds while the clerk distributes the Ward, City of Winnipeg copies of your presentation to the members of the committee, please? I am sorry, it has just been AI Golden, Glenward Ward, City of Winnipeg handed in, and the clerk is in the processof making MATTERSUNDER DISCUSSION: copies, so with the will of the committee we will proceed. Is that the will of the committee? Bill 68-The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act (2) Some Honourable Members: Agreed. 122 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

Madam Chairman: Okay. Please proceed, Mr. Review Committee is not compelling in its McGiffin. argument. Mr. Doug McGiffln (Winnipeg In the Nineties): WIN must express its grave concern for the Madam Chairman, does the committee have copies process which the provincial government initiated to of the brief now? change Winnipeg's electoral boundaries. Madam Chairman: No, but we will momentarily. It Combining the public policy consultation and the is being photocopied at this point in time, but you wards boundary revision, two very distinct activities may proceed. in the mandate of the partisan Winnipeg Wards Review Committee was improper. Although the Mr. McGiffln: What I wanted to do, Madam minister was forced by public opinion to reassign Chairman, this evening is go through thebrief thatI boundary redistribution to the Wards Review am presenting to you and entertain questions Commission, we believe that the minister's initial afterwards, if you have any questions on the brief. error and his blatantly political approach to the Winnipeg In the Nineties or WIN, if you are not council reduction has permanently tainted the familiar with, is agrassroots, nonpartisan, volunteer outcome of the entire council reduction process. organization working for a better Winnipeg. WIN The provincial government's entire approach to promotes open civic government which facilitates council reduction has been backwards. They have citizens' access to information and to the decision been negligent by failing to determine the public's makers and encourages their participation in the expectations of councillors and the duties they are political life of the city. expected to perform. Cutting council to 15 seats WIN believes that Winnipeg'sward structure and and then leaving councillors to fudge the real world number shouldbe aconcrete working expression of roles and responsibilities after the fact Is that viewpoint. WIN does not support Bill 68which Irresponsible. proposes to reduce Winnipeg City Council from 29 • (1910) seats to 15 seats. WIN does not know the right WIN also believes thatthe provincialgovernment number of council seats, nor do we have the has been negligentin its failure to involve Winnipeg research resources to establish it. We maintain, City Council In the ward reduction consultation. however. thatthe number ofcouncil seats should be Recent political experience has taught us that a suchthat it would ensure adequate citizen access senior government should not impose structural or to counciUors, recognize the importance of our institutionalchanges on a lower governmentwithout neighbourhoods and communities, promote local the latter's involvement. City Council should have control in neighbourhood Issues and planning, and been invited to participate in the consultation from encourage politicaland cultural diversity on council the very first day. itself. Indeed, what is the problem? The Minister of In the meantime, our membership supports the Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst) has vaguely talked about retention of29 council seats. WIN believes thatthe the need for efficiency and his concern about too provincial government's council related much discussion at City Hall, but his prejudices are amendments, The City of Winnipeg Act, will work hardly grounds for unilaterally and arbitrarily cutting against our citizens' best interests. City Council seats. For WIN, the firstproblem is the WIN has challengedthe provincial government to failure of the provincial governmentto state clearly disclose thecriteria by whichit determinedthat a 12- and decisively why it wants to reduce the size of to 15-seat council is appropriate. Winnipeggers council at all. Secondly, the provincial government have yet to be informed of their substantive should have informed Winnipeggers of the reasoning on this count. Certainly, failure to principles and criteria guiding the reduction and disclose suggests that the reasonsfor reducing the redistribution of council seats. Does the minister size of council are different than those stated. even have guidelines? Apparently not. We would also be interested in seeing better What efficiency? This point has been well support for the Winnipeg Wards Review discussed by other interveners. On the main Committee'sopinion that a 1 5-member City Council discussion,WIN repeats the same question-how? is ideal. Frankly, the report of the Winnipeg Wards Where are the inefficiencies? Where is the July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 123

research? HowIs efficiencydefined? What are the 15. They have also noted that research and clerical standards by which efficiencyIs being ascertained? help will be required for each councillor, thereby Wlnnlpeggers already know the answers. The wiping out any economic efficiencies imagined by provincial government simply has not done its the Minister ofUrban Affairs (Mr. Ernst). Therefore, homework and cannot answer these questions in we will not pursue that topic at any lengthexcept to economicterms even thoughthat is themain ground indicate our general agreement. However, WIN for justification. believes that there is an additional dimension to WIN believes that the minister is talking about councillors' work that deservesatt ention. political efficiency which Is completely different. Councillors fulfill important community relations log rolling, back scratching and back-room dealing and ombudsman-like functions as part of their jobs. have been normal practices at City Hall for years. They put a human face on the arcane and remote WIN and several Independent councillors take business of politics. In this regard, they resemble exception to this way of conducting civic politics. provincial backbenchers. The provision of The current close balance between the Gang and researchers and secretaries cannot replace those the WIN-Independent councillors no longer councillors who not only debateon the council floor, guarantees that deals hammered out in closed but give guidance and assurances to constituents, caucus will pass without significant opposition. explain how and why City Hall works as it does, cut Hence, from a purely political point of view, the throughthe civicbureau cracy and expedite service Inefficiencies at City Hall result from changing delivery. Chopping council in half will put political ethics and the failure of the Gang to councillors on a footing comparableto that of MPs successfully co-opt a majority of council. whose visibility is much less and certainly more Ofcourse , theanswer to thisInefficiency is clear. distant. If the Gang Is to regain its control of council, two • (1915) things must occur. First, the electoral Natural Communities: WIN supports measures consequencesof council reduction will increasethe which encourage community consciousness, likelihood that the Gang councillors will be elected Including the promotion of neighbourhood in thefirst place. Second,fewer players atCity Hall Identification and citizen empowerment through will concentrate political power in fewer hands, participation in planning and development. Ward making the job of rewarding some councillors and size, number and shape can complement these punishing others much easier. Since both the goals. As a result, WIN largely agrees with the City Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Urban of Winnipeg Act Review Committee's opinion that Affairs (Mr. Ernst) are former Gang or ICEC wards should be established on the basis of members themselves, It is not hard to determine probable mutuality of Interest and likelihood of where the provincial government'sloyalties lie. lntraward co-operation. WIN adds, however, that Under Questions of Democracy-Accessibility: traditional identifications, alliances and similarities Accountability is a cornerstone of democratic between neighbourhoodsshould figure in the ward political practice, but it cannot exist apart from definition process. accessibility. Citizensmust be able to have regular For Electoral Implications: The proposed and worthwhile contactwith their councillor if they reorganization of the City of Winnipeg's electoral so choose. Based on comments from the WIN boundaries will radically alter civic campaign councillors, several of whom already work full time, practices and methods for the worse, we believe. we can confidently state that they are already WIN's electoral approach to the proposed boundary stretched to the limit servicing their constituents. redistributionIs simple. Ward sizes should be small They simply cannot handle larger wards. Made no enough to permit local, worthy candidates with mistake about it, doubling the number of modestfinancial and organizational resources a fair constituents per councillor would simply reduce chance of winning elections. When WIN states that citizens' access to their representative and achieve City Hall should be accessible,this not only means nothing else. direct councilloracce ssibility, it also means that City Responsiveness: Other commentators have Hall should be open to the citizens who want to be noted in some detail already that full-time councillors councillors. New wards of40,000 to 50,000 people will be needed if the number of seats is reduced to each, compared to today'sroughly 21 ,000per ward, 124 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

or from 18,000 to 21 ,000, will clearly deter many party allow the others to gain the upper hand on potential candidates from entering civic politics council without a challenge. The parties will be simply because it will be too rich for them and will compelled to enter civic politics on a larger scale prevent othersfrom mounting credible campaigns if because they cannottrust the others to stay out. they neverthelessdecide to run. .. (1920) Political Party Involvement: Let us state the Not surprisingly, the involvement of the three obviousfirst: 15 "superwards"will be bigger political major political parties may well squeeze prizes than today's 29 smaller ones. Councillors independentcitizens' coalitionssuch as WIN out of will have proportionately greater power at City Hall civic electoral politics. Some have argued that this than now, a feature that is sure to be irresistible to is precisely the point of the province's initiative. some office seekers. Council seats will become WIN has frustrated the Filmon government's more valued as springboards to the provincial ambition of a compliant City Council, and it intends Legislature orto Parliament itseH, attracting people to remedy that problem. more interestedin establishing their political careers than serving the citizensof Winnipeg. A Different Candidate: The superwards will be real political plums, andmuch will be at stake for any Council candidates will require far richer, better group or party fielding candidates. Campaign organized campaignsthan now to achieve electoral budgetsand organizations will need to be doubled success. Superward campaigns will easily exceed and risks reduced correspondingly. Therefore, the thescope of provincial constituency races in terms outright electability of candidates will be a much of spending,workers and activities, rivalling federal bigger consideration in the selection processes. election campaigns. Members of three major Nominees may well be chosen on the basis of their political parties already participate in civic political connections, namerecogn ition, media skills campaigns, although without thesanction of their and financial support, while such factors as provincial party executives. However, the experience in civic affairs, knowledge of the city's resources required to elect councillors in the problems, practical political skills and commitment superwards will require considerably more to Winnipeggers would be downgraded. involvement of the parties. Only theypossess the Furthermore, in the past, candidates have been needed organizational skills, the human resources picked to suit the needs of the political party's and the campaign expertise. leadership, notthe constituents. Therelative mobility and profile ofcandidates will The localgrassroots councillor could well become be inevitablyreduced in the larger wards. Doubling a relic of the past. Even underthe present 29-seat thenumber ofhouseholds will certainly diminish the arrangement, many candidates cannot make chances thatvoters will ever meet and talk with their electoral headway because thecampaign costs and candidates. As a result, ward residents will have organizational demands are beyond their reach. littleor no direct knowledge about their alternatives Winnipeg will lose a valuable political dynamic with when making their choice on election day. their elimination. Therefore, WIN expects that strong, central and likely partisan campaigns will be developed by the One otherthing that WIN has been wondering is parties to compensate, introducing an entirely new why just in the last sitting of the Legislature, they dimension to Winnipeg's elections. Federal and changed themem bers ofthe Legislature for the City provincial campaign features and practices, not of Winnipeg to 31. The legislature wants to be commonly found in civic campaigns now would represented by 31, yet wants to reduce the City surely be imported. Among those features could be Council representation to 15. professional opinion polling and shaping, slick Spending and Financing: A credible civic advertising,image engineering and the evolution of campaign now costs about $8,000 and needs at official civic leaders. least 100 or 150 committedwork ers. These figures The parties will not, cannot, pass up the will rise proportionatelywith the number of voters in opportunityto develop a cadre of future MLAs and the new larger wards. Since many campaign M.P.s at City Council. To do otherwise would supplies have a fixed,or nearly so, per-unit cost, few amount to political negligence, risking the wrath of economiesof scale are likely to be achieved when membership and supporters. Nor can any political the wards are enlarged. Savings which can be July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 125

made, such as office rental, insurance and Winnipeg Wards Review Committee. The Citizens' incidental supplies, are minor compared with the Commissionon Municipal Representation is the one high-cost items such as pamphlets, signs and that has put forth the abolition of resident advisory telephones. As a result, the expected $15,000 or groups. $20,000-per-ward cost of a civic campaign will Mr. Emst: Mr. McGiffin,we are dealingwith a bill clearly mean only candidates backed by wealthy tabled in theManitoba Legislature onabout the 17th patrons will have a hope for success. When or 18th of June. Presumably if you are making elected, councillors would have to seriously representations here, you would want to have read consider their chances of re-election if they the bill at some point before preparing your subsequently failed to please their sponsors. presentation. Let me not getinto an argument with Withdrawal of financial supportwould be disastrous. you, but suggest to you th is, there is no section of In conclusion, the reduction of City Council to 15 this bill dealing with the abolition of community seats and the abolition of community committees committees, and there is no section of this bill and the resident advisory groups also would simply dealing with the abolition of resident advisory concentrate power in fewer hands and distance groups. citizens from decision making. WIN believes that * (1925) theaverage Winnipegger has too little Influence at Mr. McGiffln: Thank you forpointing that out to me, City Hall already. The size of council should be Mr. Minister, but also likely be making based onthe needs of the city and its residents and I will not on an arbitrary figure that has been set by the presentations to the second part of thisbill. There is a second phase I understand to Bill 68 going Ministerof Urban Affairs (Mr. Emst). through, a second phase on the size of community Madam Chairman: Thank you for your committees and the wards boundaries. That was presentation, Mr. McGiffin. I believe there will the original plan for the hearings,was it not? probably be questions fromthe committ ee. Are you Mr. Ernst: Mr. McGiffin, the Winnipeg Ward prepared to entertain questions? BoundariesCommission, which is a statutory body Mr. McGiffln: Yes, I am prepared to entertain any and to which you referred in the early part of your of them. brief, will be conducting the exercise of drawing Hon. Jim Ernst (Ministerof Urban Aff airs): Mr. boundariesof community committeesand drawing McGiffin,your last statement, the conclusion, says, boundaries of wards. They will conduct public the abolition of community committees, and then hearings, but that has nothing to dowith our actions you added theaboli tionof resident advisorygroups . here this evening , this bill or any second phase of Where in the bill do you see that community this bill. That is a separate process. committees and resident advisory groupsare to be Mr. McGiffin: The bill presently, Mr. Minister, Is abolished? open to amendment, is it not, at thistable ? Madam Chairman: Excuse me, but I am just going Mr. Emst: The committee is dealing with the bill. to ask the co-operation of all members of the We are hearing public representations. There may audience. If you would come through the Chair so or may not be amendments put forwardwith respect I can recognize you for the purposes of to this bill, and the committee will considerthem at simultaneous translation, our Hansard facility. the appropriate time. Thank you. Please proceed. Mr. McGiffin: If the amendments are brought Mr. McGiffin: To the honourable minister through forward to dissolve resident advisory groups, WIN's the Chair, I unfortunately do not have a copy of the positionon resident advisory groups is that they are bill. I asked for a copy of the bill this evening, and I a valuable partto this city. could not be provided with one by the Clerk as she Mr. Emst: I may also suggest to you, Mr. McGiffin, told me that the committee does not even have in terms of the process, in case you are not aware, enough-she did not have enough copies for the that when a government Introduces a bill, it states committee. its intentions by tabling the bill. Now, as a result of What we have based our comments on Bill 68 public hearings, as a result of technical or other from are the report ofthe Citizens' Commission on kinds of amendments, it may bring in amendments Municipal Representation andalso the reportof the to change the bill. By and large, a matterof principle 126 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

suchas the abolition of community committees, if it Eight city councillors who had received was intended by the government to do it, it would endorsement from WIN and the Winnipeg Labour have put that in the bill in thefirst place. Council were fortunate in becoming elected. In Mr. McGiffln: That is fine, no response. 1990, we changed our name to Winnipeg In the Nineties. I would like you to be sure that when I Madam Chairman: Are there further questions speak, I speak as a private citizen. from the committee? H not, I would like to thank you for your presentation. Lastfall, afterMr. Laurendeau became electedas an MLAand they had a byelection in the University Mr. McGiffln: Thank you. Ward , Peter Diamont, who received the Madam Chairman: Number 2, Mr. Ken GuiHord. endorsement from WIN, was elected. On May 14, believe all membersof the committeehave received this year, Sandy Hyman, also a member of WIN, a copy of Mr. Guilford's presentation. Please was elected. This is great. Gradually, the working proceed, Mr. GuiHord. people like myself are having a say at City Hall. I Mr. Ken Guilford (Private Citizen): Madam realize you must help your friends,but to reducethe Chairperson,members of the Legislative Assembly size of City Council is sure puttingthe risk of having dealing with Bill 68, ladies and gentlemen of the people being elected who are not on the working audience, my name is Ken Guilford. I would like to people'sside. Itwill take a lot of money,or a person say that I am speakingto you not only as a private will need to have a lot of friends in order to be citizen, but also as a concerned person. I am a elected. I do not have much money. I do notknow working person who will be affected by these aboutfr iends. In fact, at the present time, I am laid government actions. off Versatile until December 2. I should be out there pounding the pavement looking for a job right now. Itangers me firstof all to see such a billto reduce thenumber of city councillors. I do not know where I am so mad at this Bill 68 that I had to come and speak as a concerned person. these city councillors find the time to do their own jobs plus be a city councillor. One city councillor I am also against the name of Tyndall Park as spoke last night on Bill 35 and saidthat he did not reportedon the reportof the Citizens'Commission find it very taxing. I have spoken to a lot of city on Municipal Representation dated June 28, 1991. councillorswho say just theopposite . Who is doing I like the name Sisler. In Sisler Ward as it now thejob properly? exists, we have two community clubs, Tyndall Park

• (1930) and Northwoodwho are working together fairly well assisting each other due to the lack of citizen H the size of City Council is reduced to 15, it will participation. I come from Garden Grove and have take only eight people to run the city. I disagree known this ward as Sisler for a long time. I like it as totally with thisarr angement. I feel it should be kept do other people. We have a Sisler-Rosser at 29 where it takes 15 people to pass motions. Community Association. I am sure I can speak on I realize why thegove rnment is so anxiousto pass behalf of a lot of people when I say keep the name this bill. Remember the good olddays, Mr. Ernst? Sisler and keep everything else the same. You were there and others beside you. Mr. Laurendeau was here this afternoon. I was hoping I want good accountability with a spending cap to be able to ask him about it, but he has gone. He during elections with reported donations. I want an has disappeared. He has gonethis evening. Good all-around good citizen participation. I wantto make night. the city councillors full-timejobs so it will notinterfere with other jobs thatthey have and so that thecitizens In the good olddays, the city councillors used to in Winnipeg may receive good representation. I meet behind closed doors and make special deals. want the amount of pension reduced and also this They then came to City Council and helped each money only obtainable at age 65. This to me is a other. The budget in 1989 was a good example pension. I believe at the present time, if a person is when all of thephotocopiers broke down andno one elected for two terms, he receives a continuation of could obtain a copy of the budget. Too bad. That his salary. This is crazy. H you are good enough to was sure too bad. run and become elected, you deserve your money. A few concernedpeople got together and formed If not, forget it. This should also apply at other levels an organization called Winnipeg Into the Nineties. of government as well. July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 127

I detest Bill 70. My remarks on that are found in "Last week, the city's Citizens' Commission on Hansard last Wednesday. Imagine a wage freeze Municipal Representation unveiled its while the price of everything else goes up. I did not recommendations, which includedreducing council notice a wage freeze to the Conservatives' friends. to 23, eliminating resident advisory groups and Ifthey can suspend otherpeople with pay like they redrawing ward boundaries. have in the latest scandal, why can they not suspend "The three-member volunteer commission, a few of theseConservative MLAswho are right in headed by former Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce therealong beside them. president Herb Middlestead, was created by city I would also like to include with my report a copy council to counter the recommendations of the of articles in today's paper regarding councillors province's ward boundaries review committee. vote against cutting wards as well as the PC "Last month, Urban Affairs Minister Jim Ernst scandal. With your permission, I would like to read unveiled plans to cut city council from 29 to 15, keep it so other people can see what happened today. community committees and increase the mayor's We have a lot of busy people. May I read it? powers. Madam Chairman: Is it the will ofthe commi ttee to "Ernst said the Winnipeg Ward Boundaries permit Mr. Guilford to read the article? What is the Commission will release a final map of the new will ofthe committee? riding outlines and names by November. Ms. J•n Friesen (Wolseley): I think if that is part •counc. Terry Duguid (Miles Macdonell), who of his presentation, then he shouldread it. voted for the reduction, said he also cannot Madam Chairman: Agreed? understand why so many councillorsvoted in favor An Honourable Member: Agreed. of keeping the status quo. Madam Chairman: Agreed, Mr. Guilford. Please "'Everyonesaid the(civic commission) reportwas proceed. reasonable and done byan independentcommi ttee, and then we essentially ripped the guts out of the Mr. Guilford: This article in today's paper deals essential parts ofthe report,' Duguid said. with the meeting they had yesterday, a special meeting in order to deal with Bill 68. "Councillors "The three-hour meetingteetered closeto losing vote against cutting wards" is the headline; "All 29 its quorum several times, especially when council seats essential, members decide to tell Councillor Doreen Demare (Riel House) and province." Councillor Mike O'Shaughnessy(Jefferson) walked out"-I am glad we elected him-"leaving the bare "A slim majority of Winnipeg's city councillors minimum of 16 councillors neededfor a quorum. voted yesterday to ask the provincial government not to change the size of the29-member council. "Both councillorssaid st ayingwas a waste of their time,as they knew they would be outvotedby those "After almost three hours of debate, councillors in attendance, the majority ofwhom were members voted 10-6 against a motion to recommend reducing of Winnipeg In the Nineties. council to 23 members. "'Do a poll, listen to people. The people want city "'I thoughtit was a complete waste of time,' Coun. council reduced,' O'Shaughnessy said. Gloria Mendelson (Kildonan Park) said as she emerged from the meeting. "This is just an attempt to embarrass our "'Had I known what the result would be, I would provincial government, but in the end we will have leftthe meeting earlier because it's a lot of hot embarrass ourselves,' Demare said. air for nothing,' Mendelson said, adding she Several councillors criticized Mayor Bill Norrie for supports trimming council to 23, as a civic not appearing at the special council meeting. He commission recommendedlast week. was chairing a meeting of civic executive policy "'The provincial government will just say we have committee. a vested interest in the status quo. "But Norriesaid he knew thecouncil meeting was "'A plague on both their houses-the province totally a waste of time. The course is already set. with its 15-seat recommendation and us with our The government has made its decision.'" 29-seat recommendation.' "(1940) 128 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

Thank you. What I would like to say is, what are serious trouble than judges. I do not see how we we doing here tonightif all this is a waste of time. If can increase pensionsfor peoplewho build up their I may go on now. There is another article here. I pensions as lawyers before theyare appointed. am not goingto read it, but what it is in regard to is liberal Justice critic, Paul Edwards, also called this, "Doer fears public will never know if PC aide the proposed increases tough to justify however tiedto scandal." warranted they may be in comparison to other Another article in the Winnipeg Sun, which Is my jurisdictions. The liberal support the Tory favourite paper, because It concerns with local proposals for a wage freeze for public servants so issues, shows a picture ofour Premier (Mr. Filmon) cannot supportany increase in salaries or pensions smiling and nestled in between twoar ticles, the first for judges, he said, but politicians should not be one heading: Family tragedy, son kills self, then making those decisions through a legislature parents follow; and the other article: Scandal, two committee jeopardizing the independence of more officials named. I am not going to read that; I judges, Edward said,suggesting that judges instead thinkit is a you know what. I coulduse a lotof words should get binding arbitration. but I will not. I will spare you them. Justice minister Jim McCrae said the issues Gotto get back. I firmly believe we shouldhave relating to judicial compensation need to be an act in place that we may recall people In addressed. Whatever is finally decided on should municipal, provincial and federal positions. If I am respect the spirit of Bill 70, the Provincial Wage working atmy job andnot performing, I will get fired. Freeze bill McCrae said. The committee defended What is the difference betweenyou and me? What the proposed increases as essential to keeping makes you so special? Manitoba provincial judges In line with theircounter parts in other provinces. The pay increases would We, the people, want an honestgove rnmentand not bring them up to the same level as Alberta, one who believes in working people, not one who $1 14,000, or federally appointed judges who get gives large salary increases in salary to the upper $148,000, the report said. Instead, the committee class while choosingto ignore themiddle and lower reached Its$95,000 proposal basedon an average classes. of threepro vinces--Saskatchewan, New Brunswick I have an article here-1 read the paper at odd and Nova Scotia. times when I have time. If I may read it? The I hope you are listening, Mr. Ernst. The pension headline reads, Wage Freeze, Judges Face proposal is also based- Meltdown, Pensions for Provincial Judges Should be More Than Doubled. Madam Chairman: Excuse me, Mr. Guilford, on a point of order. The honourable minister on a point A report released yesterday recommends: The of order. judicial compensation committee recommends a judge retiringat 65, after 20 years of service, get an Point of Order annual pension of $56,400 compared with the current $28,181 . The committee also Mr. Ernst: Mr. Guilford, the committee has been recommended immediate salary increases to patientin listening to your presentation,and we want $95,570 from thecurrent $88,607. This 7.8 percent to hear the rest of your presentation but the part increase would be retroactive to January 1 and dealing with Bill 68. I understand you have a lot of would include retroactive pay hikes to 1990when frustrations and a lot of things you want to get off there was no increase. The committee rejected your chest, and that is fine;but there are a number proposals from the provincial judges association of other peoplewaiting to also make presentations last January that their salaries be increased on Bill 68, and I think it is reasonable and fair that immediately by more that $50,000 a year to match we should give them an opportunity as well. the federal judges, but the committee's proposals Mr. Guilford: All right, I only have two paragraphs which must be voted onby a legislature committee here, and then I will continue with my own were promptly rejected by all three parties. presentation Ifthat Is okay. This is totally unjustifiable at this time, said an Madam Chairman: Excuse me. I am making a indignant Dave Chomiak, NDP Justice critic. I have ruling on the minister's pointof order. It indeed is a far more constituents unemployed and in more point of order, Mr. Guilford. We do have rules that July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 129

we are governed by in the Legislature, and major reconstruction at a cost of $5 million, relevance in debate is definitely supposed to be a approximately. What a total waste of money. rule that we adhere to. We do allow a lotof latitude I also understand that there is a water aqueduct to the public, but to be fair to all people present in under the site where the lab will go. What is going the room this evening, I think I should request that to happen to the water? Will it be contaminated or you try to keep your remarks as relevant as possible has anyone taken this into account? What to the bill, to Bill 68, which basically the intent is the happened to the environment study? reduction on the size of the council. Thank you. St. Please proceed. Another project I dislike is the delay of the James-Charleswood bridge. Let us get on with it. *** What is the hold up? I also would like to keep the Winnipeg Jets. I do not feel we need to spend an Mr. Guilford: As I said before, I only have two enormous lot of moneyon a new arena, especially paragraphs leftand then I will continue. I apologize, in times of the restraint we have today. in the heat ofthe moment, I just did not realize what I was doing. I spoke on Bill 70 and listenedto many speakers on thewage freeze. The Conservative government The pension proposal is also based on an wants to have no collective bargaining. This is average of those provinces. Thecurrent formula for ridiculous. I have to bargain with many people calculating judges' pensions gives the worst ofboth every day. This bill is total dictatorship. We have worlds, the committee argued. Rrst, they are the lost a lot of ground and money in thelast few years, lowest paid judges in the country, giving them a low discussing different topics. I will say that I would base on which to calculate the pensions; second, hope that there is more openness within the the formula used to calculate the pensions Is based legislation and good accountability. on civil service pensions. It Ignores that fact that On May 30, I attended a town hall meetingwhere civil servants often spend a lifetime in government Jim Ernst, Jean Friesen and Jim Carr werespeakers service while judges are generally not appointed with Bill Neville, the moderator. I am a community until about age 43, the report said. producerwith Videon Channel 11. I helda townhall I firmly believe we should have an act in place, meeting at Sisler High School June 26, 1991. I that we may recall people in municipal, provincial invited the same panelists to come and speak on the and federalpositions. H I am working at my job and topic, "The City and the Province-Who Runs the not performing,I will get fired. What is the difference Shop?w betweenyou andme? What makes you so special? Jim Ernstwould not make a commitment until the We, the people,want an honestgove rnmentand last minute, and thenthe answer was no. I was very one who believes In working people, not one who disappointed. I could not advertise this town hall gives large increases in salary to the upper class meeting to the public. Thanks a lot. Because he while choosing to ignore the middle and lower did not come, Jim Carr would not come and Bill classes. Neville would not come.

I am totally against The Pines project, giving It a * (1 950) $350,000 loan-not a loan, a grant of We continued with the meeting, and I would $350,000-plusa $4.4 million loan, low-interestfee, publicly like to thank Jean Friesen, NDP MLA, critic for a home for senior citizens whose rents will be for Urban Affairs, and my MLA, Kevin Lamoureux approximately $750 a month. I wish I could afford from Inkster who, incidentally, while I was speaking to live there. I am working at Versatile, where the on Bill 70, said that the Liberals are against thewage average wage is approximately $1 6 per hour, and freeze. Theywant to openit up; they want to be able none of us can afford to rent at such high costs. to have collective bargaining. Another project I am dead against is moving the The West Kildonan-Lord Selkirk resident advisors Weston city yards, at a cost of $39 million, to a site sponsored a meeting and Mrs. Jean Miiler-Usiskin, two blocks further west. This movement is in order acting chairperson for West Kildonan-lord Selkirk to make room fora virology lab. I want a lab, but not resident advisors, spokeand told the public who we at such an expense. I understand the site to which are and what we do. Paul Neilson was the the city yards are being moved to has just had a moderator. I would like to also thankthese people. 130 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

Prior to the meeting, Jean Friesen and Ajet Deol receive a review of the dHferent proceedings and went to the studio and discussed how the your final report. multicultural people could become more active in Thank you for taking the time to listen to me. I thepolitical scene. Everyone did a great job. I am hope that you will take some of my concerns to really looking forward to seeing this town hall heart. Remember an election is not that far away. meeting on Vldeon,Channel 11, Saturday, July 27, You will be held accountable, I am sure. 10:30 in the morning. We have losta lot of ground and money in the last I am a resident advisor in the Sisler Ward, and I few years discussing differenttopics . I would hope believe we in West Kildonan-lord Selkirk have the that there Is more openness within the legislature best community councils in Winnipeg. I attended a and good accountability. I do not want to be held minlconference In June of all the resident advisors accountable for taking up too much time. I in the city. We have the right to discuss with thecity apologize for gettingcarried awayin the heat of the councillors and raise problems In our ward, as well moment. It just happened. I will close now and as otherconcerns we have in our District No. 3. We invite any questions. Thank you. also have the right to receive agendas prior to the Madam Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Guilford. meeting. We can discuss with the public their Seeing no questions, no hands, I would like to thank dHferent proposals and assist them in presenting you for your presentation. them. We may ask questions of the presenters, Mr. Guilford: Thankyou. speak of thesubject, et cetera. This is great. Madam Chairman: Councillor Roger Young. I would really hope that not only can we continue Please proceed, CouncillorYoung . in our district, but that other districts may do the same. They are very anxious to do this. We need Mr. Roger Young (Councillor, Pembina­ assistance from the provincial government. We do Riverview Ward, City of Winnipeg): Thank you, not want thisoffloading of the different moniesfrom Madam Chairperson. Good evening to you and the federal and provincial governments. We are committee members and thank you for the very mad about this. opportunity of making a presentation to your committee thisevening. I am also a little upseton this reportof theCiti zens' Commission on Municipal Representation dated I am RogerYoung. I am what I define as a truly June 28, 1991 , where one of the recommendations Independent city councillor, not a member of any political organization or party. was elected on that is to delete resident advisors. I would hope the I platform, and I have maintained my independent provincial government would continue with these status at City Hall. It is my own opinions, not the community councils because I feel that this is one opinions of any political party or group, that I am of the best ways to become educated on the presenting to you tonight, my opinions as the city different things that are happening in our city, not councillor for Pembina-RiverviewWard. only in our city, but also in the provinceand federally. I just wanted to comment, Madam Chairperson, I have just returned to Winnipeg after visiting my that I apologize for not having a written submission mother,family andfriends in Clearwater and Crystal prepared for you. I only received Jess than a day's City. I discussed the difference between the notice to be here this evening, and it is quite difficult councillors in the country and my job as a resident to prepare material in that short a time. I notified the advisorin Sisler. We realize that our roles are very Clerk some months ago, one month ago, that I similar, and our problems are very similar. wanted to make a presentation, but I was told at that The provincial government must be more time it would not likely be until August some time that accountable. They must do alot more to assist the you would be sitting to hear presentations, so I working people. More and more, as time goes on, apologize to you for nothaving a written submission. I see more andmore erosion. I am sure my views Itis entirelyverbal. are very muchthe same as other people. I talk to a Reference has been made to a special City lot of people. I am laid off Versatile now so I have a Council meeting that was held yesterday, and I lot of time to do things that I want to do. I look would just like to refer to that for a moment because forward to talking with you more. I hope thatwe will I was at that special council meeting, and I wanted July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 131

to point out a couple of aspects of that meeting to her councillor for each individual member of the you, HI may. public. Itwould bring about a reduction in access to our City Council when the public has been I think it is significantto noticethat the councillors demanding more accessto theirpublic institutions. who attended that special meeting consisted primarily of the most recentlyelected councillors at The effect of larger wards upon civic elections City Hall, and by that, I mean there were 13 newly would beto reduce participation. A smaller council elected councillors in the last civic election. Eleven would mean the cost of funding civic election of those 13 councillors were at that special meeting campaigns would increase so dramatically that yesterdayto discuss the Middlestead report and the most independent candidates would be unable to question of the proposedreduction in thesize of City afford it. Only wealthy candidates or those with the Council. support of wealthy developers or those supported by political parties could afford to run, and clearly I think that is significant to note because those Winnipeggers have consistently, overwhelmingly councillors, and I am among those 11 councillors rejected political partiesand rejected any candidate who were newly elected, represent, I believe, the backed by a vested interest group to represent them most current public support that is present at City at City Hall. Hall. Many of us were elected for thefirst time, and we were elected, I think, because a number of * (2000) people wanted to see some change take place at In essence, a smaller council would all but City Hall from what has occurred up until 1989. eliminate the presence of independent councillors I think it is also signHicant to note that two ofthe such as myself and create a partisan and highly other councillors who were there forming the vulnerable City Council. A City Council of 12 quorum at City Hall yesterday are thelongest-s itting members would be less able to take charge of the members at City Hall, and I very much respect their business at City Hall. There would be too few opinion. I do not always agree with their opinion. I members, hence less capacity to develop adequate very much respect their opinion, though, because policy initiatives, man committees and control the they are the most experienced councillors. They bureaucracy. have sat through several reductions in the size of A smaller council would be more disadvantaged City Council, from the 120-odd members that when dealing with the ever-broadening scope and composed the 13 municipalities under Metro complexity of agenda items, therefore would befar Winnipeg to the 50 councillors that formed the less effective in directing essential policy matters at original City Council underUnicity, to 29, and their City Hall. A smaller councilwould regrettablyreach views on further reductions I think were most decisionsby consensus in all likelihood,rat herthan important and most enlightening. debate, and if the range of representation is The decision that came out of our meeting narrowed, the quality of debate will also be yesterday was to not make any change to the narrowed, and H the quality of debate is sacrificed, present size of City Council. I do not agree entirely so will the quality and wisdom of council'sdecisions. with that, and I am going to qualify that statement When the quality of council's decisions are with my commentsas I go on, but I would like to give compromised, that equates to a reduction in you some reasons why. The reasons that I am efficiency, not an increase; just as two heads are referring to are reasons which I included in my better than one, not because it decreases the presentation to the Eldon Ross Commission amount of debate, but becauseit doeslead to better hearings, and mostof those reasons were Included quality and more efficient decisions through in the discussion thatwe had yesterday. providing a wider perspective. A reduction in the size of council will mean an The simplistic statistical comparisons that have increase in the size of wards. If our council were been offered in defence of a smaller council I think only 12 to 15 members, or in this case 15 members, are entirely false, and taking the information that each councillor would represent a ward twice the was sent out in advance of the Ross Commission present size, with a 40,000 to 50,000 population to hearings, I analyzed that information and put represent, Instead of 20,000. This would inevitably together this analysis. Montreal City Council hasa mean a significant reduction hi accessibilityto his or council of 57 members. Toronto has several 132 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

councilsin Its entire urban area plus Metro Council, Why do we need 31 MlAs to represent a second level of oivlo government that totals 83 Winnipeggers in our legislature, and yet 29 members. Vancouver is only one of several city councillors is too many for the people ofWinnipeg? councils in that urban area as well, and one can go It does not make sense. Given all these good on. reasons why it is not goodto cut our council,why on The upshotof all the statistical comparisons are earthwould the provincial government want to cut it that average population ratios per council In urban in the first place? let us not forget about the fact Canada confirm that 20,000 residents per that school taxes have been allowed to skyrocket, councillor, justwhat Winnipeg now has, not 40,000 and yet the City of Winnipeg and other municipalities or 50,000, is the norm. To imply that a smaller have been saddled with the responsibility of council will have fewer problems is not accurate collectingthose taxes and take all the heat from the because even cities that do have smaller councils public for it as well. still have big problems. The two just are not let us not forget the fact that the province comeoted in any logicalway. Introduced a property tax reassessment bill that in In our current economic recession when all Winnipeg caused many city property taxpayers to governments ought to be seeking ways to out costs, experience huge increases In their property taxes, our provincial government seems to have found a and the city received the blame for that, too. let us way to increase costs by planning to reduce City not forget about the fact that the province has not Council,and you do not have to be a rocketscientist indexed or increased property tax rebates since to figure that out. It is really quite simple. Half the they were introduced which has caused an number of councillors, each with a ward twice the ever-increasing climb in the remaining portion of size, will require twicethe current pay, because for property taxes to be paidby property taxpayers. let $24,000 a year no one is going to undertake the us not forget about the fact that the province has demands of being a city councillor on a full-time continually out back in increases in grants tothe city, basis. It Is unrealistic entirely. Fifteen councillors leaving an ever-increasing portion of the city's times twice the salary will cost the same as 29 budgetto be absorbed by the city property taxpayer. councillors at thepresent level, and Ifyou addto that I would just like to draw your aHention to some the additionalcost of supportstaff and assistants to differences that I noticed between the Ross handle the larger wards with more residents and Commission report and the Middlestead increased workloads, not only have you not out commission report because I think they are worth costs,but the totalcost Increasewill be substantially noting. The Ross Commission really undertook a more as a result. deductive reasoning process in arriving at their If you add all of this up, you have less recommendations. They started with the premise aooessibllity, less participation, less effectiveness, that council should be reduced to 15. In stark less quality in the debate and decision-making contrast to that, the Middlestead commission processes, and all at more cost. That is not a employed an Inductive reasoning process. definition of efficiency in my understanding, in my They startedby looking at the fabric of Winnipeg's logic. composition, Winnipeg's neighbourhoods, the I think if the provincial government is really diversity, the communities that Winnipeg is sincere about correctinginefficiencies in our political composed of, and out of that developed some institutions, one cannot fail to recognize that 29 recommendations that were consistent with their councillors representing two-thirds of Manitoba's findings, rather than starting with a preconceived population in Winnipeg, how can that be too many conclusion. That is a major difference. The when there are 1 ,202 elected municipal officials in recommendation that the Middlestead commission Manitoba representing the remaining one-third of came up with was for 23 councillors at City Hall, Manitobansthat live outside Winnipeg? rather than 15. Why on earth do we need 57 school divisions in I think there are a number of false premises that thisprovince , withover 500 elected school trustees? underlie the preconceived conclusion that council We have 13school divisions in Winnipeg alone, with shouldbe reduced to15 . There are twothat I would a proliferationof 78 school trustees. like to point out to you. July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 133

Firstly,the size of City Council is somehow-and so that the community committeeshave less routine this is a preconceivedfalse premise-adet ermining issues to deal with, and perhaps more authority to factor regarding efficiency at City Hall. Ithas never deal with regional issues. I think that is really been clearly explained to the public or anyone fundamentally important in this city. There should else how a smaller council of 15 councillors will be be a distinct inner-city community committee, more efficient than a council of 29. The reason is recognizing the central part of the city and the because the size of council has absolutely nothing special interests that concern the inner city or the to do with the actual inefficiencies that exist at City core area of Winnipeg. Hall. The actual inefficiencies that exist are a Thirdly, community committees really cannot function of management structure and the function properly unless there are four councillors geographic matrix that creates redundancies on each community committee, each from a through duplication and hierarchy in the distinctive ward. H one can imagine a community management structure. That is where the committee of three members, with one absent and fundamental problem lies Insofar as the one chairing the meeting, how on earth can two Inefficienciesthat exist at City Hall-not the size of people reach any kind ofan agreement? Itis utterly council. ridiculous. A community committee must of A secondfalse premise that I would like to draw necessityhave at least four membersin order to be to your attention, and I realize thatmany of you may able to function. not like to hear this, but I am going to draw it to your * (2010) attention anyway, and that is that the provincial government of the day has a clear mandate to I am pleased to see that Bill 68 does not reduce council. I would like to remind committee recommend the dispensing of resident advisory members that the present majority of seats held by groups, and I disagree with the Middlestead the present provincial government are not in commissionreport on thatpoint. I thinkthe resident Winnipeg. The majority of Wlnnlpeggers did not advisory groups are a fundamental part of our vote for the presentgove rnment or their platform in grassrootsdemocratic process. Itis the one means the last provincialelection . To suggest that there is by which the ordinary citizencan become involved any clear indication that the majority of in an advisory capacity with their council. I think, Winnipeggers supporta reduction in City Councilis however, there aretwo changes thatshould occur. a distortion,because It Is not factually correct. There needs to be some measure of financial support recognizedfor the residentadvisory groups, Madam Chairperson, I would like to draw your and, secondly, I think there must be some attentionto threerecom mendations that I would like safeguards against interference in the composition to make to you. In recognitionthat the fundamental of resident advisory groups by councillors or any components of our democratic process are the other politicians. quality of our representation, participation in the representation process, and access to our One final recommendation I would like to make, representative institutions, I would like to and that is based on the result that one must recommend the following three recommendations. recognize a council of 15 is simply not feasible or desirable, other than for purely political reasons. I Firstly, council should be full time. The would like to suggest to you that council shouldbe, endeavour of being a city councillor must be a insofar as size, anywhere from 20 to 25 members in full-time endeavour. Secondly, in the interest of size. I base that upon the information I have recognizing the preservationof our natural integrity, presented to you. If you are to have fivecomm unity of Winnipeg's diversity and the traditional committees, one distinctly recognizing the inner city, communities that exist in Winnipeg, it is with four councillors in each community committee fundamentally necessary that this committee so that it can function, you musthave a minimum of consider maintaining-and I am pleased to see 20 citycouncillors in order for City Council to beable some of the following recommendations in Bill 68 to functionproperl y. recognize this to some extent, but I would like to clarify it: community committees should be If you chose to maintain six community retained, but I think that there is a need to take a committees, with four councillorsin each, that would look at revising the role of community committees mean 24 councillors. If, for some reason, you 134 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

decided to have fi Ve councillors in each ward and City Council. So there is no question in my mind five distinctwards, a councilof the size of 25 would that this bill headsltseH in the right direction. be in order, but clearly no less than 20 councillors. I think the reduction principle has been further A council of less than 20 simply cannot function endorsedby surveysthat have beendone. 1 do not properly. want to say that The Winnipeg Sun survey was I thank you for listening to my presentation, something that a pure researcher would fully Madam Chairperson and committee members, and support, but I think, again, public opinion was there, I would behappy to answer any questions you might and certainly it supported the statistics that 1 had have for me. Thank you. received from my own constituents. I went further Madam Chairman: Thank you, CouncillorYoung, and most recently,when we were heading towards for your presentation. this discussion, did a furthersurvey In my ward and I came up with the same high percentage of support CouncillorGeorge Fraser. Councillor Fraser, do 1 you have a copy of your presentation for members for reduction. Again, I thinkmy last polling that did of the committee? was most important, because people were more aware of some of the conditions that would be Mr. George Fraser (Private Citizen): No, I have associated with the reduction process. So I think the same problems that Councillor Young has. In reduction Is very valid. fact, we only have one secretary for 29 people at City Hall, and It Is sometimes difficult to get your I want to deal in commentsparticularly about the thoughtsdown in writtenform . effective and theefficient aspect of a grouping close to thenum bers thatare Indicatedin the bill. My own Madam Chairperson, members of thecommittee, personal viewpoint is that we are really looking at I toowould liketo expressmy appreciation for the group dynamics here, and we are lookingat, from a opportunity to appear here. I think, as all of you management perspective, a group that can be know,this is a special privilege that we as citizens effective and efficient in decision making, and have, in theprovi nceof Manitoba, thatothers across especially In the effective useof time. I donot have our countrydo not experience,in terms of being able In this democratic process to come forward and the same fear that many others do In terms of the speak on bills In this manner. I thinkit is something loss of democracy. we should cherish. I feel that, as is indicated here, in settings like I, as I thinkyou know, also am a new councillor, this-indeed, what I experience at community similar to the status of RogerYoung. I donot want committee, at standing committeeor wherever I go to comment on my independence; I will say here, In the community-we have a very sophisticated though,that I am hereto express theopinions of my citizenship out there that Is represented very constituents, and also to give you some of my own adequately by associations and by groups with personal opinions. special interests, and by individuals who are well educated and knowledgeable In the issues that We are verydisciplined at City Hall. I have been come beforeus. So there is no elected official-and trained to speak for fivemi nutes, and if I go beyond I addto that, of course,the dialogue that we have in five minutes, and someone will move extension, I am also trained to go to eight. I stop automatically the media-l think, who can say that democracy is at eight minutes. I will tryto adhere to that. not well served in today's modern environment. In principle, I want to say from square one that the I would like to focus onsome very particular points issue of the reduction of the size of City Council is within the proposals within the bill and try to be short somethingthat I dealtwith on adoor-to-door basis, and to the point in that respect. Councillor Young as I know every other councillor must have in the had made some references to the numbers and the last election. There were, I think, those of us, who practical side of trying to cometo some number that were partof that elective process the last time, who the Legislature can place before the community in realized that it was a major issue. Indeed, the terms of--every change of this nature, in terms of general opinionof everyone-in fact, in my ward, a structure, Is really an experiment that we deal with very high percentage, in excessof 85 percent ofthe for a periodof time, and we always have a tendency residents in that ward-was In favour of a reduced to revisit. July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 135

I do not favour the odd number of 15; I favour the councillors, that I think we have to get on with even number, in my case, of 16, plus the principle business. of the mayor beingelected at large. I do notsupport • (2020) five community committees. I do support four community committees, and with four councillors I have experienced in the 15 months that I have from each of the community committees. I do not been a city councillor,there have been a number of want to get into the dynamics of how you divide major issues that indeed haveended up in a tie, and things up, but obviously this would be four they go back intothe mill. community committees that have equality in terms I thinkthe reason I would give the mayor the extra of the numbers of residents they represent, and vote and I would consider giving the Chairmen of indeed, on a quadrant basis, get at some of the Standing Committeesan extra vote is that indeedit issues that the controversial pie-shaped begins to build a foundation of accountability in configuration represented; because if we are terms of policy developmentthat is presented at the staying with theprinciple of community committees, time of an election, i.e., a platform in which the I think there is some value in having, as you would citizens have some confidence in and support. within a quadrant concept, some contact on a Indeed, that should be delivered, and there should community basis, community committee basis in not be a breakdown within the structure to stop that particular, with the Inner city. just onthe basis ofrules. In thecase ofCity Council, That, on the basis of ward structures with a if it is a tie vote, it is a lost vote, and it either goes councillor representing one ward, would be back into the mill, or it is not actedupon. achieved. When the council returns to such things I also have underreduced thesize of City Council. as standing committees or special committees or I have some difficulty with continuing the presiding debate within council collectively, Ithink that there officer position. I think, as is even the case right would be an appropriate preparation by that now, within St. James-Assiniboia-and this is no structure. reflection on the present presiding officer-that I belong to a community committee rightnow that, indeed there is somedisenfranchising of thecitizens as a result of a councillor, particularly a municipal by division, has three councillors, and I can tell you, officialplaying that presidingoffi cer role. I thinkthat from a practical standpoint, there are some from time to time there has been debate within the problems. I just came out of a meeting this past Legislature. Even the role of Speaker, there are Tuesday where, by circumstance, one of our some difficultiesin that respect, but ifwe are talking members was not available, so indeed, yes, we can about the model of a smaller council, then indeed I do business, but I guess the question is: Is it thinkthat you have to support thefact, as we seein "perceived" to be democratic, and is it understood most other municipal authorities, that the mayor still to be democratic? Are you really achieving plays the leadership role in terms of conducting the what you want to achieve in terms of community affairs ofthe Assembly. debate? Therefore, I think it would be important that I just The other areas that I would like to deal with are put my commentson therecord , thatI would see it: things that I feel are missing from the bill. I would there is no advantage under reduction to have a like to see the mayor and, in fact, I would even go presiding officer as partof thestru cture. Therewere so far as to say, the committee Chairs, recognizing other comments made by my colleague Councillor that they have some executive accountability Young in terms of additional reductions: school through the mayor's office because of their divisions, reductions in the numbers of MLAs. I preselection,would have a tie-breakingvote. I think suppose, too, that, in general, society is looking at that it builds in, as was mentionedin the comments overall reductions in our federal government also. from the minister's release, this aspect of In that respect, I think we are somewhat on the accountability and,with the reduction, certainly, the cutting edge of what we will see as a pendulum visibility. I think, when you come downto a situation swing towardsreducing representation. I would just where you have a vote that is a tie vote for whatever like to end by again saying that I think, for a circumstance, numbers, there are many factors, municipal government, in these times and in this absenteeism from a councillor or particular place, where we find ourselves, that a reductionhas 136 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

the effectiveness and theefficiency that I would like part-time representation. I am glad you raised that to see from my experience recently as an elected becausethat Is a very importantpoint that Councillor official but certainly as a taxpayer. Young hadaddressed . I do not believe that we will lose any of the Ms. Friesen: You obviously set high store by elements of democracy that others have spokento representation. You spokeof the fact that we would In the past as being a weakness ofthis process. I not be losing democracy because there are highly guess Iwould end by sayingand emphasizing again organized interest groups out there that are ready that, as legislation has changed and structures are to make their presentations to you and that you are changed, they are indeed leaps of faith In some dealing with a well-educated population. respects based on experience but also based on a I just wanted to have someof your reflectionson little bit of risk taking. I am certainly supportive of city councillors and elected officials who are not the risk taking that has occurred here, and if the dealing in that kind of situation. Part of my riding, experimentdoes not work, ladies and gentlemen, of for example, Is in an area where there is a high level course, we can always retum and increase the of illiteracy, where there are not well-organized numbers if representation does not work out to the interest groups, and in fact, an increasing number satisfaction of the citizens. of people do not even have phones, so that I am It is my opinion, from the citizens whom I findingthat, to get backto them, quite often, as I did represent,that areduction in thesize of City Council tonight, I am out delivering messages on foot, by issomething that they desire andthey are prepared hand. You drive through parts of my constituency to support. Thatis ali i am here to deliver, In terms any time of the night or day, and you can find people of that message. Thank you very much. lining up for phone booths. Madam Chairmen: Thank you for your Now I know that is not true to the same extent in presentation, Councillor Fraser. Ms. Friesen has a your area, but I wonder if you have reflected on the question. conditions for the inner city councillors who are Ms. Friesen: I also have been door to door and having to face thesame kind ofconditions. talkedto people aboutthe reduction in City Council. Mr. Fraser: I would respond by saying, just to I think the initial reaction-this was during the clarify, that I am an association manager by provincial election-was that It might not be a bad profession. If you speak to the professionals who Idea, but when people find outthat Itis going to not work within associationmanagement in this country, cut costsand that it may in fact, with the addition of and there have been many documents presented secretaries, such as you need, assistants, that kind on thatbasis, theassociations are really the leaders of thing,that Itmay indeed, in the longrun, costthem in terms of policy debate and policy setting within more, I do not findthe same kind of enthusiasm. I thecountry. It is not thepolitical structure. am wonder you have had that experience. if I would say that, ifyou are talking about anything Mr. Fraser: Well, I would agree with you,there is to deal with socioeconomic factors, my point would not goingto be a cost saving,but I guess, ifyou look be that there is strong representation. I am not at the approximate cost ofthe 29 councillors at the saying It is necessarily directly from the particular present time as 1 /650of thebudget, and I have also taxpayer, the resident themselves, but there is very had that same discussion with constituents, the strong representation in terms of the spectrums of general response of the constituents Is, as Ideology and on whatever the issue is within the Councillor Young said-and I did not emphasize public debate. That was my key point. I donot think because hehad saidit-they are looking forfull-time there is a lack of information; I do not think there is representation. lack of representation. You can go to the structures we have set up to support individuals who have My opinion Is, and I think their opinionis, too,that concems. I personally do not feel that there is that they are prepared to pay the stipend and the support lack. that Is required to deliver that, because they recognize that the city councillor at the municipal In fact, I think It is very refreshing. Just on an level plays a very important front-line role. Indeed, individual basis, I spent today at Variance and they would feel that they are shortchanged at the Conditional Use and License Appeal Committee present time, in my opinion, because they have which all of us have an opportunityto serve on, and July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVEASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 137

we really move across the entire city in dealing with one councillor, decision makingwould be even more issues. I have donethat on several occasions now, efficient. as other councillors have, and again I would In dealing with the community committees, I think emphasize, under those circumstances which are a more responsive way to deal with the problem Is ominous for somepeople who are experienced with to strengthenthe role of the community committees. that, very good strong representation and I would suggest that you decentralize and devolve knowledge of the situation, either collectively with areas of responsibility which do not have an impact people coming together or individually someone on city-wide mattersto the community committees. representing a group, I do not see it as a particular weakness. I think it is a positive thingthat we should The type of changes being proposed in Bill 68 cherish as a community and as Canadians. have far-reaching implications, and these need to Madam Chairman: Thank you, CouncillorFr aser. be addressed. Decreasing the size of council Thank you for yourpresenta tion. without puttingin place a politicaland administrative structure to deal with the changes can only impair Mr. Fraser: Thank you. City Council's ability to function. Major Madam Chairman: Councillor Terry Duguid. amendments in thepast have been the result of Councillor Peter Dlamont. extensive reviews of not just the size of council but "(2030) the implications of the changes on the administrativeand political structure. Governments Mr. PeterDlamont (Councillor,Unlv ershy Ward, of both political stripes reviewed, analyzed and City of Winnipeg): Good evening, Madam discussedthese complex issues before they would Chairman. bring In legislation. Unfortunately, this is not the Madam Chairman: Good evening. Please case in this particular legislation. proceed, Councillor Dlamont. In dealing with Bill 68, I would like to focus my Mr. Dlamont: Members of the committee-!thank remarks on why I do not see the size of council as the committee for this opportunity to make a the Issue. The fundamental question Is really: presentation. What type of council will best serve the citizens of It Is my view that the size of council is not the Winnipeg? Is it to be a council that Isquasi- judicial issue, and any substantive reductionin the number and reacts to concepts and Issues put before It by of councillors, as proposed in Bill 68, will only individuals, groupsand theadmini strationor, two, is complicate the functioning of council and cloud the it to be a council that develops policy and takes a real difficulties that exist. It Is premature and leadership role in determiningthe future direction of unproductive to make changes in the size of the the city? Governments over the past 20 years In council without first dealing with the issue of what Manitoba have been struggling with this question, type of counciland what type of decision making is and I have been a part of much of thatstru ggle. most appropriate for Winnipeg. From 1971 on, successive provincial Before gettinginto that, I would like to say first that governments have been tryingto find a way for city I am pleased Bill 68 anticipates a retention of the councillors to demonstrate more leadership. community committees. They serve an important role In bringing city council closer to the residents The complex urban problems thataffect all major who are most affected. However, a smaller council urban municipalities in Canada are not easily with larger wards will only weaken the access of handled by a municipal structurethat wasdesigned residents to their local government, including in the to build streets and collect garbage but was not community committees. I believe Councillor designed to deal with the social, economic and Fleisher's example of the three members in the physical realities of the nineties. community committee as legitimate, if you were There is nothing inthe examples of other cities of watching television last night and watched the similar size that suggestfor a moment that a larger situation in where you only had two councillors. or smaller council has dealt with these urban It is too high a price to pay for some ethereal problems In a more effective and efficient way. In concept of efficiency, imagined in a smaller council fact Calgary, with its council of 14, has the same, if whose logical extension is that, if there were only not more, of a bias to parochial decision making. 138 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

New Initiatives are at least as difficultto Implement increasingly reactive and quasljudicial in nature. It In Calgary as theyare In Winnipeg. Is very much like the corporate model which this particular legislation seems to be focused on. The amendments to the actin 1989 went a long way to providing a structure of municipal Items are brought forward-in a situation of a government that allows for the mayor and his corporation, by the chief executive officer-or they appointees to take on more of a leadership role. are broughtforward by standing committees, bytwo Contrary to what Councillor Fraser was saying, I standing committees In council, by Individuals, believe the speaker has played an important part in developers, citizen groups, vested interests, the that. With thespeaker rather than the mayor in the administration and council adjudicates the chair, opposing groups on council have a more competing Interests. The smaller the council, the balanced and open forum to express their views. more that will tend to be thecase . It is dHflcult In a small council forpolicy leadership to evolve and for Thebudget process overthe past two years has new initiatives to be brought forward. demonstrated two realities of the substantial changes that were made to The City of Winnipeg When there is not the potential for like-minded Act in 1989. One, that when changes are made to councillors who work together, it is unlikely that the act, no matter what they are, it takes time for Informed and well-thought-out positions will be council to adjust andadapt to those changes-that developed. As In the situation with the corporation was just as true In 1977 as it was in 1989-and two, where the chief executive officer becomes the thatgiven time,the amendments of 1989 lntroduced person who develops the policy which is ratified by by thisgovernment are showing real signsthat they the board, that will become the situation at City have the potential to create a councilthat can show Council. leadership and deal with the difficult issues of the In the absence of councillors providing that day In a responsible fashion. initiative, others, such as the administration and leadership can only be accomplished at the outside vested interests, will fill the vacuum. municipal level H there is a structure in place that Councillors will only be able to react after thefact. allows groups on council to form, develop policy, In my view, a smaller councilwill onlyperpetuate the take Initiatives, and where necessary, act as an difficulties that are perceived to exist. opposition. I want to make It clear that what I am It is my view that theamendments put In place in describing Is not a parliamentary model, although 1989 by this government are working well. The someaspects of Itare evident. Municipal issues are evolving budgetprocess at City Council shows that not always dealt withthrough party disciplineas they change Is possible under theexisting stru cture. My are at the provincial and federal government, and conclusions are simple. This is not the time for there Isample evidenceat this point in time that the radicalchanges to The City of Winnipeg Act, and I groups on councildo not always vote as a block, but think some of you know and have gone through that should not be seen as a weakness in the other radical changesand know the difficulties. The argument for a more legislativeform of government recent amendments in the act should be given the at the municipal level. time to work. There is every indication that the The American situation, where Republicans, councillors can provide the citizens of Winnipeg with Democrats cross party lines to vote on specHic or clear policy choices. on regional issues, is an example of what seems to Groups such as WIN or the other groups on be occurring now at City Hall. That is positive. council have publicly-articulated positions, and Citizens have thechance to relate policiesto groups some of the othergroups on councilwho previously on council and thecouncillors become increasingly had hidden agendas can no longer make decisions accountable for theirdecisions. in secret. The act does provide the beginning of a structure where groups on council can provide A small town council tends to work against this leadership and initiative, and if the mayor does not type of opendebate and the development of policy. chooseto take on the leadership role in a council of With the smaller council, decisions are less likely to 29, 1 believe that others can take on that role forhim. be made in the open. It is easier to make deals in secret when fewer people are involved. With a The present actalso gives council wide-ranging smaller council, the councillors' roles become powers to change its administrative structure, July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 139

budget processand procedures, and what I would to deal with a small council you have to give like to emphasize is that these are the types of somebody the power to do those kinds of things, changes that are needed now. Council Is just although I am stillagainst a small council. beginning to lookat these. The proposal before you The other things is, I thinkyou have talked in the to reduce the size of City Councilwill only delay any French language section about French language actionin these Importantareas and set back reform servicesfor St. Bonifaceand St. VItal. I think there at City Hall. I think that is the significant pointthat I shouldbe some considerationabout St. Norbert, but wanted to make-thatthere is a moveafoot to make the difficultythere is thatit has traditionallybeen part changes, and the budgetprocess is one of themthat of FortGarry since 1935. Any proposalsas put into has gone on in the last year and a half. place in the Ross report, I think, are ones thatwould

• (2040) have to be thought about very, very carefully because you are basicallymoving most of whatIs a When you have the disruptive aspects of lot of Fort Garry into St. Boniface, St. Vital, and I changing a council from 29 to 15 and having think you would findthat would not be acceptable at councillors scramblingto try to figure out where they all. On theoth er hand, I think that small area ofSt. fitin, what thesenew procedures are, what thenew Norbert, which is really a very small groupof people, s--a game s Councillor Fraser suggested--group needs to have French language services. I did not dynamics are, you end up with a situation in which see that in the act itseH. those importantissues getdelayed for a year ortwo while everything else scrambles out. That Is my presentation. If you have any questions, I would be pleasedto answerthem. This change will set reform back at City Hall. It Madam Chairman: Thank you, Councillor may be unexciting. To recommend change for the Diamont, foryour presentation. sake of change will accomplish little In dealingwith the complex problems that face Winnipeg. In my Ms. Friesen: You have had experienceat both the view, it can only make thingswor se. This isnot to provincial and the municipal level, and obviously say that the act is perfect, or that the number29 is one of the consequencesof this act is that it Is going the Ideal number of councillors. In fact, yesterday to create MLAs who represent 20,000 people and morning I voted for a decrease to 23, but I accept city councillors who represent 40,000 people, so without difficulty council's position which was that one way of describing it is that the peoplewho previous and reaffirmed yesterday on the size of have the closer contact with their constituents In council, that it remain at 29. That is not the issue. Winnipeg, in fact are goingto be the MLAs. By focusing on thesize of council, Bill 68has failed H you are lookingat it in the senseof who speaks to meet theneeds of Winnlpeggers. for Winnipeggers,I am wondering where this leaves There have beenenough changes over the past city councillors who are going to be much more 20 years and I have to take some of the distant from their constituents than the MLAs. I responsibility for themIn my previous life, but what wonder what reflections you might have on that for Is needed at this time are some changes that can the relationship perhapsbetween the province and fine tune the amendments of 1989. It is time to let the municipality. Winnipeg City Council get on with its own work, and Mr. Dlamont: I think there are two approaches to it is time to let the citizensof Winnipeg decide at the that. One is that from just a practical level, there is nextmun icipal election whether ornot they approve no question as many of you know, that the kind of of how the majority of the present councillors are calls that a councillor getsare quite different. Even dealing with the issues about which they feel most in a ward such as mine, which is suburban in nature, strongly. I still get a lot of callsthat are similar to theones in I would like to make one or two minor specific the Inner city. comments to the bill. If it is going ahead the way it Obviously, there is the time and resources is, I think it is important that the recommendations required to deal with that. What I have foundis that in the city's report that was published last week it is impossibleto be a part-time councillor and look regarding the mayor having the power to removehis afterwhat I consider to be the two important roles of appointees andfill the positions on EPC at any time a councillor. One is to deal with the constituency during the year, be included. I thinkif you are going difficulties,and the secondis to deal with the broad, 140 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

overall policy issues. I think it is impossiblewithout recommendationsof the Ross committee,but I think being full time, which I am, to deal with both of those. the difficultywould be not so much moving that small The constituency issues become paramount and componentinto St. Boniface-St. Vital as It would be thosecouncillors who are just dealing with parttime, taking 30,000 or 40,000 people from FortRichmond becausethey do nothave thetime for it-1think that and FortGarry and other parts of the community and is asigni ficant problem. moving in St. Boniface-St. VItal which I would The larger the ward, the more those become suspect would be a very difficultthing to do In setting issues that focus a councillor's attention. let us up the community committees. face it, it is what keeps them elected to some extent. Madam Chairman: Thank you for your That brings it to theother aspect of the questionand presentation, CouncillorDiamont. that is the political situation that results when you have councillorswho are elected from twicethe size Ms. Shirley lord. I believe all committee of wards where you have competing political members have a copy of Ms. lord's presentation. interests in a city which is 60percent of the province, Please proceed. where you have a media centered In here, where Ms. Shirley Lord (Private Citizen): I am pleased you havedecision making centeredIn here. ThatIs to be making this presentation today as someone a political question that the provincial government who has taken an active part for over 20 years In a has to deal with in the sense that is it prepared to multitude of facets of ourcity and our council. The deal with councillors who will have a mandate and size of our City Council is an issuethat I have dealt an authority at the political side which is more with over the years because I am seriously powerfulthan most of the MLAs? concerned with the effectiveness of our city The example thatis best is to the extent that a government. I have made presentations to various mayor of the City of Winnipeg who knows how to groups and committees outlining my position on an play the media and the politics of the city, such as effective, accountable City Council. There are a Steve Juba, was able to have more influence than number of Issues I wish todeal with In this present probably most of the politicians at any level of exercise. They include: government at that particular point in time. The process: Your committee is dealing with That is strictly a political question which this recommendationsas a result of an electionpromise government,the provi nce,has to deal with. That is made by theConservative Party in the last provincial their decision to make. I am just pointing it out. I election. Itdid not comeabout as a result of serious have madethe case at a conference in Minneapolis concerns raised by the Winnipegelec torate and, in that politically it was a stupid move to amalgamate fact, is a result of the decision made by a 13 municipalities into one because it strengthened government whose majority does not come from the role of the mayor and City Council over the inside the boundaries of Winnipeg. This Is in spite province. Again, as I say, that Is not the way it is of the fact that through countless hearings in which related to parties. the majority have not Indicated a preference for Ms. Friesen: I was interestedin your comments on reduced City Council. Contrary to the remarks of St. Norbert, as well. Is there any other advice you Councillor Fraser, in my various experiences could give us there? You are assuming that in a working in municipal electioncampaigns and having larger constituencythere is going to have to be St. worked, designed and implemented polling that was Boniface, St. Vital, old St. Bonifaceand St. Norbert. totally impartial, trying to get a reflection of what the I know that that has been talked about generally. citizens of the city of Winnipeg wanted, and in fact Could you give me some furtherbackground on the the ultimate poll being taken In the last civic election density of French populationin St. Norbert and how and in the University Ward by-election and again in you might see those? the River Heights by-election; the citizens want Mr. Dlamont: I am not sure of the statistics, but it good, open,accountable city governmentthat they is quite small now. It is a population which has have some power to influence. It is clear that the decided for one reason or not, not to live in St. present provincialgove rnment intends to reduce the Boniface, but It is a tradition in a sense. I have size of council whether Winnipeggers want such a talkedto them briefly aboutthis issue because of the reduction or not. Thisraises several questions. July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 141

Would rural Conservative MLAs support wards could facilitate systemic racism and unilateral changes to town or municipal councils disenfranchise many who live in poverty. There is which are in their constituencies? Are urban no question that inner city neighbourhoodshave the Conservative MLAs, the majority of whom were highest level of aboriginal people, new Canadians members of the ruling caucus at City Hal l, and people living in poverty. The proposed concerned about the shift in power at the city over enlarged wards would make it almost impossible for the last two years and prepared to do anything to inner city residentsto elect someonewho would put destroy a City Council that is much more reflective the needs of their community first and be . in a of the needs of the citizens of Winnipeg? Should positionto articulate that with any sense of powerin subsequent City Councils exist at the whim of a reduced council. provincial governments whatever the desires of the In the light of recent courtchallenges to questions citizens of Winnipeg? of gerrymandering to support partisan ends, your .. (2050) task will be to ensure that the decisions you arrive I support the principle that amendments to The at donot serve any otherpolitical agenda other than City of Winnipeg Act should come about as a result the besttype of structure forthe city of Winnipeg. of pressure from Winnipeggers and itsCity Council. Funding: Electionsrun on issues that crosssuch Such changes should enhance theoperation ofthe divergent neighbourhood boundaries would be city, not be at the political whim of provincial costly and would end up being glossymedia events politicians. that would have little substance. The proposal to Size of council: City Council is the level of eliminate funding from political parties could government closest to the people It serves. seriously hamper many who wish to run forelected Citizens can and should be able to contact their office unless they were independently wealthy or councillors at any time to ensure the decisions that could rely on friends and acquaintances who coufd they make reflect the kind of council the citizens make significant contributions to their campaigns. want. At thepresent time city wards roughly reflect Even at the provincial and federal levels there is a the size of any provincial constituency. This recognition In therelevant Election Finances Act to structure and the community committee structure tax credits for donations to campaigns to ensure allows an opportunity forindividuals and community equal opportunity for all. groups to influence decision making. Therefore, it would seem logical,particularly with This was evidenced in the last budget process seats the equivalent to the size of federal ridings, when many community committees had to schedule that the process should include the opportunityfor second meetings to accommodate citizen tax credits for contributors to campaigns if It is participation. In the final analysis the current necessary to eliminate the exclusion of political Estimates that werepassed on March 20 reflected partycontributions. Thereis absolutely noway that the needs and desires of the community. In a any government has been able to outlaw thirdparty reduced City Council the opportunityto shape the intervention in political campaigns both at the capital and current budgets would be greatly provincial and federal level. They would not beable reduced. The question that has to be asked is: to eliminate that at themun icipal level with any more Who would benefit fromsuch a reduction? I believe success, and it would largely depend on third party the danger is that we could return to a city that is intervention and who could mount themost effective operated in the interests of developers and not the political campaigns. citizens. In conclusion, I trust that this provincial I do not believe the size of council should be government will not implement the provisions of Bill reduced. I do believe that the community 68. I would ask that the caucus members who were committee structure should be strengthened former City ofWinnipeg councillorsto act inthe best through empowering resident advisory groups to interests of the citizens of Winnipeg. Ensure that facilitate and encourage citizen participation. we have a city governmentthat each and anyone of us can participatein whetheras concernedcitizens The ward system: Wards should reflect or elected representatives. neighbourhood boundaries and community of interest. Any suggestion of Increasing the size of Thank you. 142 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

Madam Chairman: Thankyou, Ms. Lord. affects rural communities to whom I am not Mr. James Carr(Crescentwoo d): Thankyou very responsible as a member of theLegislatu re. much, Ms. Lord, for your presentation. I want to H we were all to sit around thistable and talk about focus In on just one sentence which I think is quite our own constituents in isolationof everybody else, significant, and the sentence Is, that the decision to then it would bechaos ; it would be afiasco. One of reduce the size of council was made by a the reasons that there is a motivation and incentive government whose majority does not come from to reduce the size of City Council is that precise insidethe boundaries of Winnipeg. Do you believe reason thatwe want all city councillorsto care about that a government of Manitoba whose majority the city in its entirety. We do not want to be able to comes from Inside the boundaries of the city of say or to be able to assume that because a Winnipeg ought to have the authority to make government has a majority of Its members from agriculturalpolicy? outsideof Winnipeg, or a governmenthas a majority Ms. Lord: I think if in the event that they take into of Its members from inside, that they ought to have consideration what the interests in the agricultural no interest or jurisdiction over the entire province. community and what they are saying, then that Exactlythe same point is true for the governance of should be so, but all the public hearings under the the City ofWinnipeg, and I think that point has to be Chemiack commissi�l sat through numerous made. hearings in the Eldon Ross commission. Very few Ms. Lord: In response to those remarks, I agree people talked about the reduction in the size of that ultimately legislators have the responsibility to council. This government-! do not think any act in the interests of what they believe to be the government would go ahead and pass slgnHicant interests of all Manitobans. I quaiHied my remarks agricultural policy H all the farmingcommu nity was in saying that any move to change The City of extremelyupset with it. Winnipeg Act, I believe, should come from City Mr. Carr: I guess we could have a debate about Council looking for change in direction as well as who Is upset and who Is not, but both the some reflection of opinion of the citizens of ConservativeParty andthe Liberal Party-and I do Winnipeg. I have been extensively involved in not take any great joy in siding with thegovernment market research, looking at what the citizens of on an issue but, you know, you have to call it the Winnipeg want and the kind of government they way you see it-ran on a platform In the last want. When you askthem the simple question, will provincial electionto reduce the size of City Council It make the city more efficient and more cost between 12 and 15. The majority of citizens in effective by reducing the size?-of course, Winnipegvoted for either one party oranothe r. everybody wants things more efficient and more effective-but when you start to detail some other Let me askyou another question. Do you think mechanisms to make it more efficient and make it that the councillor who represents Transcona has more effective, the reduction In council is not what theauthority or the mandate to talk about Issues that they want. ItIs efficient, effective government. I am affectdowntown Wlmipeg? just asking that the legislators take that into Ms. Lord: I thinkin takingthe considerationof what consideration. the rest of the city of Winnipeg or the downtown Madam Chairman: Thank you for your does,yes, ultimately they have the authority. presentation,Ms. Lord. Councillor Glen Murray. Mr. Carr: I guess I am just a wee bit sensitive on • (2100) the point, and I do not want to prolong the time available for other members who want to express Mr. Glen Murray (Councillor, River-Osborne their views to thecommitt ee, but I think it is important Ward, City of Winnipeg): Thank you, Madam to make the point that I am elected by the people of Chair. It is nice to see you 24 hours later, and I look Crescentwood constituency. My responsibility is to forward to discussing this with you this evening. I those voters and they will judge at the end of the want to tell you, quite frankly, having appeared now mandate whether or notto express their confidence before the Eldon Ross committee and the in me by giving me re-election. I am a legislator. I Middlestead committee, this has become a wom am responsible to deal with legislation that affects and tired phrase. I feel like I am on a proverbial northernManitoba, that affects ManitobaHydro, that treadmill in the sense that I have a feeling that the July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 143

decision on this has been made and very little is Council, that this is something driven by polls, not going to persuade thegovernment at this point to do by reason, not by what is right, not by responsible anything but deal with 15. leadership. I want to startoff by talking about democracy. In It was done in a political scream of hysteria that my right hand I have the Herb Middlestead report. preceeded the most untimed and ill-prepared In my lefthand I have the Eldon Ross report,as they assessment act ever brought forward, and I can are popularly known. Here is a report that was quote the minister who said way back in 1983 as an established by a committeechaired by the Speaker oppositioncritic and shortlyafter that who criticized with members of all political parties and the government of the day severely for the lack of persuasions, with people with different views on the preparation when we had a formula that was size of council. They selected three outstanding brought in that not one property was tested, from citizens, the past chairman of the Chamber of Winkler to Thompson,from Brandon andVirden, all Commerce, and the past chair of the Chamber of the way to eastern Manitoba, and that we had no CommerceCivic Affairs Committee of the chamber, preparation. no more a hotbed of socialism, as my dear friend The Impact was devastating. It shifted and former Councillor Marshall would have said, assessmentburden dramatically in thecity in a way than probably the Winkler Chamber of Commerce. that was carefully stage-managed to blame on a city In my lefthand I have a report written by a former that an 8 percent mill rate increase, property tax Conservative candidate, the spouse of a former increases in real dollarsof 100 percent, 150 percent, candidate and a campaign worker and friend of and 70 percent were somehowstage -managedinto anotherformer Conservative candida te. One had a being something of amun icipal mill rate issue, which predetermined mandate between 12 and 15. Yet it was not, and the public has slowly figuredthat out one said, you go out and determine what the right as theyhave looked at their assessment bills, and size is. As a matterof fact, when writing the motion, they have understoodthat. I removed myself because of my own biases on the To me it was nothing but cheap, sleazy politics, size of council to determine it. and I was mostoffended by it. I thinkyou wouldbe Mr. Middlestead and Mr. Trachtenberg, a equally offended if the Integrity of your Legislature professor at the Faculty of Administration, and Mr. was so compromised, If thefederal government set Fergusson, a long-serving and respected clerk, up a committeeof partisanpeople to decidethat the came back and said,15 will notwork. You will deny Legislature of Manitoba should be 70 or 20 or 1 0. people representation. Losing the intensive ward You would consider that gross Interference In your system will deny major parts of thecity of Winnipeg own internal affairs. If you have any respect forthe from being represented. It said that Calgary and constitutionality of a government your size, you Edmonton, which are really the only two that will would not be proceedingwith this. have smaller city councils, are not good models. It As I said yesterday on Bill 35, which in my could be observedthat Calgary is the only city with view--and I have gone back and I have talked to a higher per capita debt. councillors of long service-nothing has been He had some conversations with colleaguesand railroaded through on such a timetable. Never friends in Edmonton. When they have six wards before have we had 27 amendmentspresented five and two members per ward, not too many people minutes before a committee. I think that speaks there are very happy, and I think you may be seeing volumes of the interest in sincere representation. that city going in the oppositedirection from what we I also remember, and I guess what is most are going. Where In Edmonton you only have two disturbing is that it is not just thislegislation, It is the councillors from the inner city, because of the underpinning philosophy of thisgo vernment,where financing situations of municipal politics, ten come the city and your ministry, under the Honourable from the suburbs. This is hardly fair or Gerry Ducharme, worked very hard to restore representativedemocracy. tenants' representation in regional housing. A year This process thatled up to this reportwas nothing and a haH was spent to give tenants representation but a sham, and I use the words of a former in regional housing in an area where there was Conservative candidate and the speaker of the City some overlapping jurisdiction, and that was 144 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

snatched away from those people who had fought average municipalward represented by a municipal long and hard to get some control over their shelter. representative outsideof Winnipeg is approximately The former member of aChild and Family Services 325 people, population at the current ward size of board, that same- 1.5 percent of thecurrent ward size. In other words, Madam Chairman: Councillor Murray,excuse me, you can fit over 60 average-sized Manitoba but I have allowed an awful lot of latitude and I municipal wards from outside of Winnipeg into the do-an earlier presenterto the point ofrelevancy. I city's average-sized ward. would appreciate it if you would address your In the 15-ward scenario, the average ward comments to Bill 68. We have an awful lot of outside of Winnipeg would be less than 3/4 of 1 presenters here who want to be afforded the same percent of the size of a Winnipeg ward, and you opportunity withrepresentation this evening. could fit over 125 of them in the average ward. H Mr. Murray: I appreciate that, Madam Chair. there is any equity at all in representation, the diversity of language, of culture, of age, of Itis a pattern. I would like to startmy formal part socioeconomic group, of traditional communities of my presentation by starting where the 1988 Ward within Winnipeg, is at least if not more complexthan Boundaries Commission ended, the last truly those communities that lie outside the city. Where independent inquiry. It said the major concern it is important enough to have wards of 325 people, expressed by each of the public meetings was that it certainly seems wards of 40,000 to 44,000 can the revised boundaries should address local and hardly account when each ward would be larger community interests on an equal basis with than even thesecond largest city in the province of populationdensity . Manitoba. The citizens of Winnipeg, as well as the elected The Province of Manitoba, In Its 1988 Ward representatives, with one exception, were Boundaries Commission report, defines my ward, unanimous In expressingtheir view that the 29-ward River-Osborne, as six distinctneighbour hoods. It is proposal be retained and that the wards identify comprised of a diverse community containing the more closely with comparable socioeconomic second highest- and third lowest-income characteristics and history of Interest of ward neighbourhoodsin the city. Itis held togetherby the residents. This Is almost Identicallythe resultof the commonality of high-density neighbourhoods and conclusion of the Middlestead committee. This is older housing stock. There are neighbourhoods also the official position of the City Council of that share a common identity, common problems Winnipeg, twice represented, twice voted on, both and shared strengths. These twenty-oddthousand by the previous council and by this council and by people are served by two community centres, share majority vote-do not want to change, do not find It a commonlocal newspaper,identify themselves as helpful, In our collective wisdom,do not view thisas a united community. They see themselves as helpful legislation. Wlnnipeggers with the interests of the city as their This sounds like a summation of what you have overriding priority of their councillor, but confident already heard in your 1991 consultation. Public that their participation in city-wide issues is not opinion has been consistent on this matter. without someone being accountable for insuring the Winnipegis currently represented by 29 counciHors, concerns oftheir neighbourhoods are addressed. each representing a community of 21 ,000 people, * (21 10) 14,000 of whom are voters in most cases. One-third of us on council approximately right now As with every level of government, a specific are full-time or have given up the majority or all of person is accountablefor addressing local concerns our other employment time. within a consistent and homogenous neighbourhood-very important-very importantfor The populationin my ward alone,21 ,000peop le, thepro vincial representatives in areas to have areas is a population approaching two-thirds the size of that make sense, that are coherent, so that you are Brandon andtwice the size almost of any other city dealing with some commonality of issues, some in the province. The economy and gross domestic commonality of people. product of my ward alone is larger than almost any other municipality in the province. It includes an The city ofWinnipeg has been restructured more industrial park and two business zones. The than any other major municipality in Canada in the July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 145

last 25 years. It was done when the province has is no level of governmentthat has so much locked financial or other problems and wants to deflect it up, so much staff and resources into the direct from public attention. You cannot finda major city delivery of services. in Canada-1 do not know what it is about this We are three-quarters the size of the provincial province, maybe it is because we only have one big government, and with the most restricted revenue city to play with, but we go through more sourcesof any level ofgove rnment. We maintaina restructurings-Unicity, 13 councils, metro balanced budget each year with a total per capita government, one government. debt of less than $1 ,300 per person, the envy of It is particularly strange right now thathere we are most governments. The province has not seen a in Winnipeg, one of the few large municipalities balanced budget in decades and maintains a without suburban councils, no suburban councils in growingcumu lative debt of just under $10,000 per the city of Winnipeg. In Ontario and Quebec, every citizen, more than seven times the city's declining single majorurban area has a regional government. debt. When the sinking fund is deducted, the per The average ward size is larger for that reason. capita debt of the City of Winnipeg is $740 per There is no other municipality, very few. Even in the person, or 7.5 percent of the province's per capita Eldon Ross report, they failed to take in regional debt. municipal government, which just actually amazed Rnancial efficiencyIs a foreign wordto provincial me. There is no municipality in Canada right now government, when comparedto the city with seven that incorporates such a diverse community and times the per capita debt load of the city. If the doesnot have a regionalgove rnment that deals with reason was efficiencyand rationale for bringing this regional services. We are truly unique and we are In, the province's debt is absolutely uncontrolled. now going to end up with really thelargest wards in The city's comparatively small debt load will be the country because we do not have a two-tier reduced through the policy that I and my WIN systemof governmentand we do not have councils. colleagues have brought forward to try and cap This whole issue started, as I havesaid, when the borrowing at lower levels. province's assessment bill created unnecessary It is particularly ironic to me, Madam Chair, that, hardships on taxpayers and a revolt in the reaction given themajor argument whenI listen to the debate to the dramatic increases in the taxable value of about this, was that somehow fiscal responsibility properties. This occurred purely as a result of was goingto result from a council. This came from provincial legislation. The province's situation and people who should know better, who should know agenda to blame the city-which had no legislative thatwhen you triple the annual capital debt from $33 authority to do anythingabout themes s--reducing million a year to $101 million a year and put the size of councilseemed to be a simple response Winnipeg as a second highestcapital-in-debt cityIn to anger with taxes, politicians. It alsoavoided any the country, you have huge problems, and direct action to control provincialborro wing, city spending, and indirect service costs $21 million debt growth or examine the province's efficiency and spending for the next six years as a result of the financial Itself. policies of the majority of city councillors whonow The City of Winnipeg Is a governmentwith more sit on the governmentside of the House. direct serviceresponsibilities than any otherlevel of This is the problem. This would require a 7 government. We are responsible for ensuring percent annual property tax increase, and what we electricity, fire protection, policing, building are having to do, if you want to deal with efficiency, inspections, public health, a huge share of social and what I would ask you todo, if you want to include services, parks and recreation, heritage buildings, somethingin this bill, bring in fiscal reform. Amend solid and water wastes, all land use and zoning Bill 68 to bring in fiscal reform . regulations, community centres, arts and culture funding, street construction and repair, traffic You created the debt problem; you are nowdoing regulation, water and hydro utilities, Tourism something that absolutely does nothing to help with Winnipeg, economic development strategies, fiscal responsibility or more efficient management. housing,libraries, thebus services, andon and on If you want to do something, if you want to bring and on. No level of government is as something in that is helpful, give us the authority to service-intensive as municipal government. There give tax exemptions; give us the authority to have 146 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

our grants known the year before our budget Is Madam Chairman: Thehonourable member does decided. Do not wait until one quarter Into the not have a point of order. It is a dispute over facts. currentyear to announceour grants, because when Please continue with your presentation, Councillor you wait until March, as you do now, to bring in Murray. grants and tell us howmuch money we have, those *** decisions cannot be changed until June, and we play "How much Is the province going to give us?" Mr. Murray: My point was simply, Madam Chair, One of our major funding sources, one of the that I think it would be very helpful if sectionscould major things that is holding up fiscalreform and is a be included in Bill 68 that would deal with taxation 15 point budget reform process to deal with the authorization of the Cityof Winnipeg and the ability kinds of authorities that we would need from the to be able to do our budgetplanning the year before province to shift our budget control so that our because I think, in my understanding of what the budget, like otherlarger municipalitiesin Canada, is minister wanted to achieve, that would be the way finished beforethe finalquarter of theyear prior, and to go, not-the size of councilis really a red herring. that mill rates are projected as they are in other City councilmeets once every threeweeks for an cities. average of about eight hours and deals effectively with complex agendas, this year again bringing in a Point of Order below inflation tax level. The city has maintained Mr. Emst: Madam Chairman while this is all very the lowest tax level increases in Canada for the Interesting and encompasses large and other better part of the last decade, to the credit of many extensive civic reforms that may or may not require people around this table, a much more efficient legislation to accomplish, we aredealing with Bill 68. process than a host of small councils or the Metro There are a number of people present thisevening Winnipeg regional government models which who wish to be heard, and I would encourage the precededit, and much lower, quite frankly, than any delegation to tryand restrain himself with regard to of the smaller councils in other western Canadian all ofthe mattersof civic reformthat he would like to citieswhich have experienced averagetax rates of see andtry anddeal with the bill thatwe have before 50 percent to 100 percent more than the City us. Council and have dealt with more uncontrolled spending and less political responsiveness and Madam Chairman: For the record, I have to accountabilitythan has been evident In the last few determinewhether Indeed the honourable minister years on City Council. had a point of order. Indeed the honourable It would be miraculous if the province, quite minister does havea pointof order. Itonce again is frankly, could handle its business with brief, relevancy and I would please request your infrequent and efficient meetings as the council co-operation in keeping your debate relevant to the does. The provinciallegislature meetsfor days for bill, 8111 68. We haveallowed an awfullot oflatitude . every hour that we meet. Council has seen greater I appreciatethat you have a vastknowledge of civic co-operations, divisions are rarely along party lines affairs, and at some time I am sure the minister and usually based on legitimate concernsof diverse would be more thanpleased to listen to some ofyour neighbourhoods, hardly the kinds of things that civic reform Ideas that could be addressed in a bill would lead to a call for a reduction. How can the comparableto changes that arebeing proposed in government that has three times the city's real debt this bill. Thankyou. Please proceed. and meets one day for every hour the City Council Mr. Murrey: My apologies, my point was quite meets claim to be a moral authority insofar as simply that- predetermining the outcomeof a public process on constituency size and the shape of wards. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood}: Madam Chairperson,I think we have a practicein this House The province ironically did this by prejudging the of allowing presenters the widest range of efficiencyof counciland suggesting an optimal size opportunity to present their views on any subject. I of 12 to 15. This is contrary to the principles ofThe do notthink we should go around restraining them City of Winnipeg Act. The City of Winnipeg Act or badgering them or suggesting that they are not outlines these principles fundamental to the relevant to the case. I see it as obstructionist. assuranceof equitable,democr atic representation, July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 147

not only in theshape of wards orthe configuration I cannot go to anyone and get a tax credit. If I of them, but in the number and in selecting the spend $20,000It is personalliability. Unfortunately, number, according to the original City of Winnipeg after the election is over, we only have 120 days Act, the followingcriteria should apply: under the current legislation to coverthat money. I In determining the boundaries of wards and triedto raise $4,000in thatperiod of time and could communities the commission shall consider the only raise $2,000. I am much more affluent than community or diversity of interest of the population, many of the people that I represent. If this system the means of communications between thevarious that is now being imposed is beyond the financial parts thereof, the fiscal features thereof and all or pale for me, Itcertainly will be for others. other similar and relevant factorsthat relate to those; There are some othersituations that exist and the To me that is not donein this. This does not pass weaknesses that this legislation does not address. thatlitmus test. One is parties, political partiescarry debt. Theycan do campaign fund raising 12 months a year. They Accessibility is fundamental to democracy. Our carry debt and usually have centrally organized council represents one of the most culturally and campaigns, tax credits. Most political parties, the ethnically diverse cities in Canada. three represented here, have lists of some In my neighbourhood, few people can afford to long-standing, where theycan raise money. They run for electedoffice asIt is now structured. I would can go afterthose people. Most Individualscannot not have considered running simply because the go to a large printing company and say, give me a financial burdens right now of the current system line of credit of $10,000 for printing, please, and would be overwhelming. Even If post-election tax most of us do not have long party lists or credits existed, which they do not, few of my organizations that we can subscribe to, so that neighbours could raise the funds required for a creates some very seriousdiffi culties. reasonable campaign. A successful election campaign requires an initial Investment of about Italso creates some distortionbecause, In smaller $5,000 under the current system and subsequent wards of 44,000, volunteers are very Important. I funding amounting to more than twicethat much. had 250 volunteers on my campaign. It was very possible, quite frankly, Madam Chair, under that * (2120) system where that made a difference. One of the things, and I hope I am not wandering In a larger ward, money becomesmore valuable. one out oforder, ofthe things I think, and I hope out We are in the business of regulating a very large of fairness that some of you who may support a Industry, the land development Industry. The land smaller council would consideras fundamental and development Industry makes most of Its money a companion approachto this Is to deal with the real through rezonlngs. If you rezone something from difficultyIn 44,000 member wardsof the problem of agricultural to residential, or from residential to financing. commercial, millions of dollarschange hands. It Is It Is unlikely that I can seek re-election for the not much of an investment since the corporations followingreas ons: Right nowif you are a provincial and unions bothcan make donations. It is not much candidate and you get more than 1 0 percent of the of an investmentto make a considerable donation vote, you get I believe it is 50 percent of your and raise through a number of $750 donations, campaign costs recovered. Ifyou try to raise money which is the limit, an amount of money. you can use tax credits, very, very ul.helpf If you think you are going to do well or you think you are I am not likely to be the recipient ofthat kind of going to be a competitivecandidate and you judge money. Many of my friends cannot write that kind yourself to be that, ifyou have to absorb a personal of cheque. So without thetax creditsys tem, without debt of $15,000, which is hard to raise without tax a recoverable amount of money, those people who credits, and if you know you are going to spend tend to benefit, who are regulated who tend to $15,000 or $20,000, which is what our City Clerk's benefit by having sympathetic people on, they are office in my discussions estimates, based on generally going to make much more generous previous expenditure patterns, would be required, donations. No one else has the financialinterest or that is personal liability. the means to compete in that way. 148 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

So with theshort recovery periodof time, very little in those populations and their money to raise money, you are at a huge underrepresentativenessin civic governmentis not disadvantage because only those people proceed being addressed. by those interests, the same people who have One of the things that I clearly hoped would be contracts with the City of Winnipeg, who stand to addressedwas, given that by the end of this decade, gain from largesse of garbage contracts and snow 20 percent, one in five citizens in this city, is going contracts also have a major interest to make sure to be of aboriginal descent, it would only make that, for example, those people sympathetic to common sense that one of the first objectives we contracting-out policies are elected. local would be lookingat is howcivic democracy canwork community leaders with modest means are not to include that population. going to have muchof a running chance. With our growing Asian and new Canadian I cannot see myself raising that kind of money, community, how can civic administration work to and I cannot see myself as a candidate in the next represent those people? In an administration election,and Ithink it is very unfortunatethat people where there are 64 senior representatives--62 of like myself,who are, relative to mostother inner city whom are white, middle-aged men, 1 woman and 1 residents, affluent, have to sit down and be able to person of colour in the entire senior say to younow , asmany of my colleagueshave said administration-we have not sent a very positive privately, and some publicly, If you have been message about inclusion. following the papers, thedecision onwhether I run I see, quite frankly, nothing in this bill that or not is goingto be based on how much money I addresses that, nothing that is going to lend have andhow much money I can raise. itself-quitecontrary, theselarge wards wheremost If that is not fundamentally defeating the intent of those communities disappear within a much and purpose of financing, Councillor Duguid and larger ward really, really disturbs me. many othershave saidthat publicly now: We do not Anotherissue that concerns me that I would like see our way clear to doing it, and I would like the to see addressed in this legislation, which I do not decision on whether I get a second term as a feel Is yet addressed, c'est qu'il est absoiument councillor or not, not to be made on financial necessaire pour le futur de Ia communaute matters, but to be made on the worthiness of my francophone de Winnipeg que sa presence soit candidacyand my record as a councillor. preservee dans Ia structure municipale. La I want to move from that, Madam Chair, to two legislation qui protege le droit aux services pour Ia other large communities that currently are communaute et Ia populationfra ncophonesest tres underrepresented or have not been represented at faible. all. That is the aboriginal community in the city and La representation de cette communaute the new Canadian community, lower economic francophonesera reduitea un quartieret a un siege income stratawho, throughconflicts with the police sur le Conseil municipal en vertu des dispositions department and many city services, already see du Projet de loi 68. Je pense que Ia reduction de civic government as something quite foreign to l'ancienne ville de Saint-Boniface, avec son conseil them. Alreadythe existing system has not been a independant qui represente !'interet des friendly system for them, has not been encouraging communautes francophones de Winnipeg, a un them. siege, est epouvantable. I have had thebenefit to sit on the board of the le referendum d'il y a quelques annees sur Ia Aboriginal Cultural Society for the last year, to be question des services en franc;ais pour Ia involved with that community. I have had the communaute franc;aise est un exemple de Ia chance to talk to many, many friends of mine, some reduction des droits des francophones, de Ia of whom have been actively interested in seeking population francophone de Winnipeg et de City Council,who have said, quite frankly, whereare l'isolement de cette communaute. we in all ofthis? (Translation) They have pointed to American cities where large, Another issuethat concerns me that I would like visible minorities and lower income strata are not to see addressed in this legislation, which I do not represented on city councils, wherethe rapid growth feel is yet addressed, is that for the future of the July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 149

Francophone community in Winnipeg, it is These are communities, Madam Chair, that I absolutely essential that its place be preserved in cannot see being represented. How do we design the municipal structure. The legislation that a council structure that ensures that communities protects the language rights of the Francophone from St. Vital to Point Douglas all feel some community and population is very weak. ownership of citygovernment? How do we start to ensure that social conflict between communities With Bill 68, representation of the Francophone and communities and government is resolved inside community will be reduced to oneward and to one the Council Chamber and not through disharmony seat on the municipal council. I feel that the and distress resulting from incidents of violenCe on reduction of the old City of St. Boniface, with an our streets? independentcouncil that representsthe interests of the Francophone communities in Winnipeg, to one * (2130) seat, is appalling. It will be a long time before the J.J. Harper The referendum of several years ago on the shooting is behind us. It is hard to imagine that question of French-language services for the aboriginal people will feel some sense of ownership French community is an example of the reductionof of city government when there remains such the rights of Francophones, of the Francophone significant barriers to their participation. This will population of Winnipeg, and the isolation of this worsenin the larger electionwith greater campaign community. expenses. (English) Again, how will the Francophone community reasonably maintain a presence at City Hall, when I think it is extremely sad that a community that St. Boniface is swallowed up in a huge once hosted the largest, and still does, constituency? A ward of 40,000, 44,000 or five Francophone community in Western Canada that wards of 220,000 or two or three councillors will had it itsown council Is being forcedin a system to ensure thestage is set for furtherexcluding linguistic try and seek representation through one member. and racial communities from City Hall. To me that is totally unacceptable. Given the weaknessand the failure of the City of Winnipegto Many of my constituents, as I have said, cannot implement even the most basic components under affordto run In the current system, and fewer still In the existing City of Winnipeg Act guaranteeing wards of two or three times the city of Brandon. If French language services, to proceed now and you reeommend a ward system as proposed, only reduce that community's representation when we those Interested in civic government who can pass cannot even get enforcement of the existing an unwritten but obviousfinancial litmustest could language laws under The City of WinnipegAct, to contest elections. me, is absolutely a travesty and a tragedy. The traditional major funders of financially Again, If we were seriously trying to deal with well-endowed civic campaigns are land representation, one of the things that we would be development companies. Land values are often seriously looking at would be the preservation and increased by millions of dollars when a reasonable representationof theFrancophone community, or at chunk of agricultural land is rezoned or whenurban least the size and scale of council, as I gave the lots of land are rezoned commercial. The rewards example and the criteria that were in there and are large and obvious for campaign largesse and guaranteed in The City of Winnipeg Act, which the financial interest being protected substantial. guaranteed sufficient size of council to make sure City Council regulates the land development that there was at least someone who could second industry; not many other groups have such a vested a motion in that language from that large community, interest In the decisions ofthis level ofgove rnment. a communi�y under somewhat threatened Councillors, unlike other elected officials, play a circumstances. That extremely disturbs me; it quasi-judicial or adjudicating role through their extremely disturbs me. involvement in ruling on land use applications, the I was quite Interested in listening to the sensitivity of which we discussed only last night in Middlestead committeeto the presentations of the this room. Franco-Manitoban Society, and I am hoping that we We have a judicial role. It would be more than will be hearing more from them. dangerous to create scenarios where money, 150 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

specifically from land developmentcompanies and thatonly themost incompetent fool could not make their friends, couldbecome a moresignificant factor a small fortune operating afacility that had thatmany in the election of people whom the public trust to uses in it. regulate this industry. I think this is what we talked about. I was quite I have attempted to put this action by the amazed because it was a four to one vote; and, provincial government in the context of real obviously, by my tone and my reaction to this, you emotions. I want to conclude with my last remarks can tell I was the one person out. This was done by addressing the comments made by Councillor and we talked about variance the other day, and Fraser earlier on. here is another law to protect this kind of thing from He madereference to a meeting, andI remember happening. in a hall where Ms. Friesen and Mr. Carr and the There is, as you know-and some of you are honourableminister were present at Trinity Church, former councillors-thatthere is no C3or C4zoning, the minister asked me, he said: Were you aware of which this would fall into, allowed in that entire area, what you thoughtwas sort of-not illegal-butkind under that entire zoning bylaw, and this definitely of unnecessarily familiar or cozy kinds of deals? falls within a much higher zoning density. It also We talked aboutparochia lism, andone of the things defeats through variance the intent of the zoning that was a concern is that we wanted to get out of bylaw. It was also an application that was put parochialism, that we wanted to get out of cronyism, forward by the ward councilfor the area. that we wanted to get out of deal making. A deal or arrangement granted that was never TodayI sat through that experience, andI want to given toanybody else who had ever applied. As a talk to you aboutas an example of howit works, and matter of fact, no one was ever allowed. The I then want to conclude by suggesting what the highest building on the street is three storeys, and solution to it may be. I sat through a variance no one is aware that I could see of any equivalent committee that Councillor Fraser described as a uses. friendly discussion that ranged through the spectrum of political opinion. I thought that wasa This was done by some members of the particularly interestingdescription of it, and I respect governing party of this Legislature. It was I saw when!t alkedto the residents, thatbecause there are differentpoints of view andI particularlywhat who would like to give you mine. walked away fromthat discouraged, upset and feeling that the bylaws did not mean anything. I do What we sat throughwas a hoteldevelopment on not thinkthat there was anything illegal done here, St. Mary's Road, overturning the recommendation andI do not thinkthat there were deals made, but I of the Planning Department, the Streets and thinkthere are just some commonunderstand ings, Transportation Department; it was a unanimous as it is often politely said, amongst like-minded rejectionof thecomm unity committee-(interjectlon)­ councillors whohave a philosophical view that really pardon me? can totally rob a community of itsrepresentation and Madam Chairmen: Councillor Murray, please grant to some people in the city certain rights in proceed andtry to ignorethe committee members. lands and privileges with great ease that others have not been able to. Mr. Murrey: Okay. Thank you. As long it is not you, too, Madam Chairperson, I will be glad to do Ithas set a precedentthat any other high-density that. developmentwould now have to be granted in that area out of simple fairness. Four decades of It was a unanimous rejection by the large well-managed local land use management for that residential community that surrounded it. I mean area was reversed by a decision that went way the petitionwas extensive, the representationswere beyond what had ever been granted there before. large. This was to put in a seven-storey hotel, a beer parlour and comedy club, a dentist anddoctor Unspoken understandings are immediately on office, a mini-mall, a conveniencestore , a drugstore, the table between like-minded councillors to be a drive-through beer vendor, a chapel, on-site remembered when one of the grantors is in a banking, fitness centre, ...licenced restaurant. So position of equivalent need. No fix, nothing many land uses that I have neverseen in what was technically Illegal, quiet but understood. I also a commercial hotel being sold as a seniors complex understand that it is highly likely there will be some July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 151

retaliation at somepoint In the future for me making Saint-Boniface et Mme Reese qui est une these points. -(Interjection)- Yes, I know I am right. conseillere de Saint VItal et qui a Ia meme opinion -(inte�ection)- I know that. I do not pull punches. que mol sur cette question. Elle a peur que les -(Interjection)- Pardon me? changements apportes a Ia loi placent Ia This tome Is what frustrates me. This to me is communaute francophone dans une position plus what I often hear criticized. This is what I hear faible en ce qui conceme Ia constitution de Ia ville members of the Legislature criticize when they say de Winnipeg. that. That fundamentally disturbs me. There Is M. Gaudry: Vous avez lu Ia clause 85.1 vlsant Ia nothing in this bill that is going to stop that from prorogation des services lingulstlques? Ouelles happening. As a matter of fact, I would say that sont vos impressions de cette clause du Projet de getting consensus to do those kinds of things orto lol? try and get that kind of agreement or M. Murray: Excusez-mol, repetez un peu plus llke-mindedness on a larger council is much more lentement, s'il vousplait. Je n'al pas Ia loi- difficult. It Is much more difficult. It is a very dHficult issue. M. Gaudry: Quelles sont vos impressions de Ia prorogation des services llngulstlques? Malgre In a small council and in smaller committeeslike toute modification des limites ou des noms des this, those kinds of understandings happen. Often comites munlclpaux, les limltes du district de It simply happens,quite frankly, because of the luck Saint-BonHace - Saint-Vital, telles qu'elles sont au of the draw. Quite frankly, had other councillors moment de !'entreeen vigeur du present article,sont been there from other parts of the city or H other reputees demeurer en vlgueur aux fins de Ia people had been represented, the decision could prestation, a l'lnterieur des llmltes en question, des have gone verymuch theother way. Thatis theluck services prevus a Ia presente partie. Quelles sont of thedraw . vos Impressions au point devue- So those kinds of things have existed; they do M. Murray: Je penseque c'est posslblement une exist. I do not agree with them, but that Is the way ameliorationde Ia situationqui existe presentement It works. If that Is truly what Is meant, then I think a Ia ville de Winnipeg. Je pense qu'il est plus that I would to hear an explanationof how anything important qu'll y alt des membres francophones sur In this bill is going to change any of that. le Consell de Winnipeg. S'll n'y a pas de membres Thank you, Madam Chairperson, I will conclude francophones surle Consell de Winnipeg,II n'y aura my commentswith that. pas une personne, ou deuxou trois personnes,qui Madam Chairman: Thank you for your seralent-je ne sais pas le mot en franqais presentation, Councillor Murray. Mr. Gaudry? "advocates"-pour les communautes francophones. M. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Vous avez parte de Saint-Boniface. Puis je suls le depute de S'il n'y avait qu'une seule personne, elle se Saint-Boniface et je demeure a Saint-Boniface trouverait dans une situation tres lsolee. depuis plus detrente ans. J'ai toujours eu a coeur M. Gaudry: Vous avez aussi mentionne que !'interet de Ia communautede Saint-Boniface. depuls plusieurs annees maintenant Ia ville de Puis lorsqu'on a amalgame Saint-Boniface avec Winnipeg doitdonner desservices en franqais sur Ia grande ville de Winnipeg, il y a eu certainement demande. A quel niveau est-ce que vous voyeza de Ia controverse et, encore aujourd'hui,je pense ce moment-ci le progresqui a ete fait depuis cette que l'on voudrait garder !'aspect francophone de resolution que le franqais soit disponsible a Ia ville Saint-Boniface puisque c'est Ia plus grande de Winnipeg. communaute francophone de I'Ouest canadien. M. Murray: Je pense qu'il n'y a pas eu beaucoup On dessert beaucoup de communautes de progres jusqu'lci. Je ne suis pas au courant de francophones dans le Manitoba puis dans I'Ouest tous les details de Ia loi maintenant, mais je crois canadien. Est-ce que vous avez lu le Projet de loi comprendre que Ia plupart des services n'ont pas au complet? ete mis en oeuvre jusqu'ici. Ca fait longtemps que M. Murray: Oul, je penseque je l'ai lu au complet. j'ai eu une conversation avec Ia Societe J'ai eu des discussions avec mes collegues, M; franco-manitobaine et j'espere qu'elle a presente Selinger qui represente le quartier de tous les details de ses revendications. 152 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

(Translation) services in French upon request. Up to now, how Mr. Gaudry: You spoke aboutSt. Boniface. I was much progress do you think has been made since elected in St. Boniface and have lived there forover thisresolution was put intoeffect? 30 years. I have always been concerned aboutthe Mr. Murray: I do not feel that much progress has Interests of the St. Boniface community. been made up to now. I am not at this point familiar When St. Boniface was amalgamated with the with all the details of the bill, but I understand that bigger City of Winnipeg, there was certainly a lot of most ofthe services have yet to be implemented. It controversy around the issue. Still today, I believe has been a while since I spoke to the Societe that we would like to keep the Francophone aspect Franco-Manitobaine, and I hope that they have of St. Boniface because it is the largest presented all the details of their demands. Francophone community in western Canada. It (English) serves many Francophone communities within Mr. Emst: Councillor Murray,last evening we dealt Manitoba and throughout western Canada. Have with Bill 35. In Bill 35 is an amendment that would you read the bill in its entirety? require use changes to beconsidered as rezonings. Mr. Murray: Yes, I think I have read the whole Last night you opposed that; after this morning's thing. I have had discussions with my colleagues experience, have you changed your mind? Mr. Selinger, who represents the St. Boniface Mr. Murray: I enjoy the question, I think. Thank community, and Ms. Reese, who is a councillor for you very muchMr. Minister for that question. St. Vital and who sharesmy view on this issue. She fears that the change In legislation will weaken the No, I was very clear yesterday. I said there were positionthe of Francophonecommu nity at City Hall. two issues of which I was of two minds on, and it was very difficult. I have said my preference was Mr. Gaudry: You have read Clause 85.1 that It remain as a decision of the community concerning the continuation of language services? committee. I cannot remember the member who What are your views regarding this clauseof the bill? asked me, and I said, what would you propose as Mr. Murray: Pardonme? Could youplease repeat an alternative? I suggested an appeal from a that a little slower? I have not got the biii- districtcommissioner's decision or a reference to a Mr. Gaudry: What are your views regar ding the committee. continuation of language services? I thinkwhen an appeal committee can so easily Notwithstanding any change to the boundaries or overturn a community consensus and a community names of community committees,the boundaries of comm ittee's unanimous decision and the the St. Boniface-St. Vital community, as they are recommendationsof the department,so easily from immediately before this section comes into force, people who have no accountability to those people. are deemed to remain in force for the purpose of H we cannothave a localdecision , I wouldcertainly providing,within those boundaries,the servicesset see the idea of a citizens' appeal committee being out underthis p art. What are your thoughtsfrom the that. point of view- As far as rezonings go, yes, I am leaning much Mr. Murray: I feel thatIt is perhapsan improvement more in that direction. After my experience today, on the present situation in the City of Winnipeg. I Mr. Minister, I am leaning much more onthe Idea of thinkthat it is more important to haveFrancophone expanding rezonings and being much more councillors sit on City Council. If there are no restrictive on variances. So, if you want to concede Francophone councillors, there will not be one a point on that, I would certainly concedethat to you. person, or two or three people, who would be-l am not sure of the word inFrench-"advocates" for the Madam Chairman: Thank you, CouncillorMurray. Francophonecommunities. Thank you for your presentation. H therewere only one person, he orshe would be Mr. Murray: I just want to conclude. I want to tell in a very isolated situation. you I apologize for some of my anger tonight. I found this an extremely frustrating situation, and I * (2140) guess, in my heart of hearts, I really felt that I was Mr. Gaudry: You also mentioned that for several speaking to a hung jury tonight, somewhat, that it years now the City of Winnipeg has had to provide was quite clear the government is committed to a July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 153

course of action. I feel better having vented my number of city councillors because we are talking frustrationwith you, and I hope Itwas nottoo difficult about two very different things. We are talking to listen to. Thank you. about two supreme governments by nature of the Madam Chairman: Thank you. It has been Constitution act in this country. We are thentalking suggested that the committee take a ten-minute about, in thisparticular case , delegated powers from recess. Is thatthe will of thecommittee? Is that the a provincial government,and theyare notthe same will of the committee to take a ten-minute recess thing. They cannot be discussed on the same then reconvene the committee at five to 1 0? terms, and I find it rather upsettingto take a lookat Agreed and so ordered. The committee will it in thatsituat ion. reconvene at 9:55. It is more of a case, in my opinion, of a situation *** where powers have been delegated much the same as you do to an employee, and the employee does The committee tookrecess at 9:44 p.m. not have the right to turn around when you want to change the job somewhat as long as it is under fair After Recess andobvious circumstances. I just wanted to make Thecomm ittee resumedat 9:56 p.m. that one point out of order, because It is something that concerns me. There are two major Madam Chairman: Order please. Will the governments and, notto take away from the very Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs please importantjob that the city councillors have, theydo come to order. I will now read the next names until have to understandthat those powers are delegated we are made aware that a presenter Is In the and changes can occur. room-Mr. GeorgeLapp; No. 10, Mr. Jim Mandryk; No. 11, Mr. Gary Coopland; No. 12, Mr. Grant Now with thatoff my chest, there are a few other Nordman; No. 13, Mr. John Harrison. Would you points that I would like to make, and I will be brief. please come forward, Mr. Harrison. Do you have First of all, a number of people have made the copies of your written presentation? comment that by virtue of having Jess councillors, Mr. John Harrison (Privata Citizen): It is not a there Is going to be Jess service, less availability to written presentation,just from note&-! do not. the public of the given councillor. In my opinion, I do not think that is the case because there is the Madam Chairman: Thank you. Please proceed. added change of the fact that we are now going to Mr. Harrison: Thank you very much, Madam have people who are working full time. Chairperson, and members of the committee. I appreciate the opportunity to be here as a private * (2200) citizen speaking on behalf of Bill 68. I come, I think, There are, granted, some councillors, by no with a bit of a differentperspective than many of the means the majority, whoare doing it as a full-time people who I have heard speak this evening, just job, but most are not. The thing Is right now I can someone In an area of Winnipeg who has a few tell you that I know a number ofpeople from across comments with respect to what he has seen goon, this city who have difficulty getting a hold of their not so much involved with theprocess . councillor. I do notthink It is the councillor'sfault. I In particular, I want to take one point out of order think it is by virtue of the fact that they have a very because it is something that has bothered me to a Importantother job that is their primary jobwhich is certainextent, something that I heard this evening taking up a major portion of their day and of their that I do not agree with and I think needs to be put week, and then theyare trying to get done a bunch on the record in some fashion. That is that Mr. of very importantbusiness in what amountsto their Murray has made the comment that, for example, if spare time. I do not think that is the way to run a the federalgover nment was to cometo the province city. on a matterand then try andmeddle with thenumber I agree with thefact thatthere have to be full-time of MLAs involved, that would be something thatthe councillors doing the job and, by virtue of the fact MLAs would get very excited about and, of course, that there will be a small group but now working full that Isthe case. time, I think they will be as accessible if not more You cannotmake the comparison between what accessible. Tiedto that, something that I have not is happening here with a potential change with the heard mentioned this evening is the fact that for 154 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

thosepeople who have anotherjob-and, of course, decisionmade. I thinkall ofthem should have been there are some very significant jobs held by some thereor a majority ofthem should have been there. people on council. There is absolutely no question I think that kind of thing occurs at times because of that either, some very significant onerous jobs they are not-again, it is not their primary job. They that require a great deal of their time both inside have other things in life, and oftentimes the situation normal business hoursand outside, by virtueof the is one where theymay very well want to be there but fact that their income from being a city councillor is they cannot be there, and that concerns me. not the key thing in life. To me it is not the best way e-a to run things. When it is your primary job, then you The one final point that I would like to mak are going to be much more concerned if that number have been made this evening that do not potential incomecan disappear and, of course, that need to be reiterated-but one final point that means you have to be responsive to the people out concerned me was one again made by Councillor there, your constituents. Murray, and thatwas onewhere somewhere toward the beginning of his presentation there was a Itconcerns me that someoneis doing it sort of on comment about the fact that there have been 25 the side becauseit is an interest area, andalbeit that years of massive change withCity Counciland it has may be someonewho is a very goodperson, a very been too much,it has been toolong, therehave too concerned person, but they do not have to be as many changes. responsive, and justthat conceptconcerns me. So I really like theidea of having thefull-time councillor, However, towardthe end of that presentation he made another good point in that the council as it and it is a point thathas not beenmade to this point. existsnow is doinga betterjob thanit did when there There have also been the comments about were multiple little groups looking after things than whetheror not-anotheradvantage thatwill involve when there was a Metro. There has been less councillors, one that I agree with, is this Improvement it seems each time that there have comment about being less parochial and have been changes made, and again those changes concerns that are caring more about the city. We have been made by the province. I have the have something called Unicity now. I do not agree confidence that the changes the province are that it is fully in place, although it should be, and I putting forth right now are the right changes, and think part of making Unicity work is having a those are my comments. situation wherethere is less parochialism and more Madam Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Harrison. concern about issues across thecity. I think thatwill Thank you for your presentation. Councillor David happen when there are less people involved and Brown. looking after larger constituencies with diverse groupsof people. I thinkyou get a senseof what is Mr. David Brown (Private Citizen): Madam going on in more than one incomebracket when you Chairperson, thank you. I am not here as councillor, are dealingwith the larger areas, and I think that is I am here as a private citizen. important as well. Madam Chairman: Thank you. You wish the Another thing that I can honestly say concerns record to show Mr. David Brown, private citizen. me, and It relates back to the first point I made, is Please proceed, Mr. Brown. thatan example ofwhat I feelis wrong right now with Mr. Brown: Just a pointof clarification from the last City Council is what went on last night. You had a speaker who made a presentation. I was in the situation where we had a bare quorum to make a council building yesterday and unfortunately was final decision on something that was supposedly unable to attend the special council meeting, veryImportant. I thought, at a minimum, the people because I was at our regularly scheduled Executive should have turned up. Policy Committee meeting right next door. There have been a lot of people making When the councillors decided to call a special representations,of course, many from City Council, meeting and had their petition signed, they spoke although Itappears the majority who have spoken with the mayor and he suggested to them that are peoplewho were there. I have a concern again Wednesday morning was not a very appropriate about how involved are these people ifthey will not time, this morning or Friday would have been a even come and get involved on something where bettertime, and they declined tofollow his advice. they have spent the time and money to have a We were unable to change our scheduleand make July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 155

this most Important special meeting. I would just mentioned earlier today. I think I have changed my like to point thatout. mind. I hope with my presentation-! want to be very I am here to congratulate the minister and the brief but sincere and maybe demonstrate to you government and the good senseof particularly one what the smaller council would do in terms of time of theother partiesIn the legislature here tonight on consumption. My presentation relative to what I think Is a finepiece of legislation. Councillor Murray's will demonstratethat, I believe. * (2210) I am here to put my supportfor the legislationon I did not support 15 to be the number of the record. We are a city thatoperates approac hing councillors, but It Is very close to 12 andI knew one a billion-dollar-a-year budget, 10,000 employees. did not have a chance. So I would like to support Certainlyto run that kind of an organization and be the numbers and, like Councillor Brown beforeme, responsible for that kind of an organization, the job comment that the special City Council meeting must be full time. I put about 40 hours a week in which had a bare quorum of 16-that came from a now, andI am lookingforward to a full-time position. group of 15 people who had signed a petition I try and put those kind of hours in at my otherjob because they supported the citizens' panel, or as well. whatever it was councilhad appointed,and only had I want to make onecomment, though. Councillor 16 people show up; and they came to support a Fraser was here earlier and talked about a reportthat recommended 23 councillors, which this four-by-fourconce pt-four quadrants in thecity and legislature Is rather familiar with-that number I four councillorsin each quadrant for a total of 16. I believe; and then changed their mind and voted personally support that and think that you might 1 0-6 to keep thestatu s quo, I donot really think that even want to look at making It running the four representscouncil. I bet those 16 people-none of candidates at large in each quadrant. I think that those--1 do not thinkthey think it represents what has some merit, and would respectfully ask that I they think today either. They must be wondering would be reviewed. what the heck they did. I am not going to go Into long detail and rhetoric. A smaller council-l am not sure of the benefits. I thinkyou have had enoughof thattoday and this I was part of the 50-member councilthat went to 29. evening. I do haveone problem withthe legisla tion, I noticeda greatchange. I returnedto council after however, and there Is no clause that I have seen leaving for six years. I came back In 1986, and that makes Itretroacti ve. Thank you. found it bogged down again. Actually, I found the Madam Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Brown. 29 acting morelike the 50 than the 50did in its day, Councillor Mike O'Shaughnessy. Do you wish the and so Ireally welcome thischange. I think Itis due. record to show as councillor or Mr. Mike More important than the numbers I think will be O'Shaughnessy, private citizen? the expectation of the electorate that councillorsbe Mr. Mike O'Shaughnessy(Councillor, Jefferson full time. I really thinkthe full-time aspectof aJob is Ward, City of Winnipeg): I think because of one what will lead to dramatic improvements atCity Hall: of the remarks I will make, Madam Chair, I would political leadership rather than bureaucratic prefer Councillor Mike O'Shaughnessy, Jefferson leadership at City Hall; opportunities for greater Ward. imagination in the financing of the city; councillors Madam Chairman: Thank you very much. who will set their own agenda rather than reacting Councillor Mike O'Shaughnessy, please proceed. to preset agendas of the bureaucracy, which is the case now. Mr. O'Shaughnessy: I should not follow animals, small children or Dave Brown, I do not Just being together, the opportunity for all think-anticllmatic. If I might begin with, to the councillors-! do not mean by party-in a loose committee but a partial aside to the honourable term, to caucus, to get together to share ideas and Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Emst), last night I was build ideas with each other, which is not there now against citizen panels for variance and conditional in a part-time council, I think will be one of the use appeals having sat through a number of greatest benefits that will come out of this. I thank appeals, especially the one Councillor Murray you for this impendingopportunity for us. 156 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

As for those who do not agree, and there have I would like to see that-this comes up under been a number of presentations, both here and to 6(2)-the population figures not be given, as they the Ross commissionon this, I would just like to say were last time therewas a boundariescomm ission, that it appears to me that it is only those on the fringe an extra leeway, but they be tightened. That if of electability whosupport the status quo. it seems anything, the leanings, the Instructions for any that the councillors I have seen whoseem secure in leaning, should be that the areas with the most their position, who seem to bedoing the job and get obvious potential for future growth be made the the accoladesfrom their electorate, seem to be the smallest wards, and those which have ones, for the most part-perhaps I should exclude demonstrated a population pattern of exodus, if I myself here-who supportthe reduction in the size can say that, if anything, be slightly larger. of council. Because the boundaries will probably not be I would just like to comment, if I might, on a couple reviewed more often thanonce every nine years, it of small points within the bill. One ofthem is under will keep some form of balance. There will still be Section 5(4), which is to have the Ward Boundaries an imbalance with growth and shrinkage in certain Commission convene In 1991 and as may be areas, but when you have wards representing required, but not less often than every nine years. 18,000 people, another with 42,000-43,000, With theterm of council being three years, I realize something is wrong somewhere. Believe me, new what I am about to say would be difficult, but I have areas do have a lot of problems aswell. not taken the time to research this and am I One final point-and itis not mentioned in Bill 68 wondering if there is anything in it-the nine is a but it has been thought of; it was mentioned in the multiple of the term of three years, but every 10 Ross report-1 must say that I am a strong, strong years we have a census. We have accurate supporter of a four-year term for City Council. I information out every 1 0 years. I am wondering if realize this causes a conflict with the present there is any way to tie in the Boundaries election system withschool boards, and that school Commissionreview with thecensus. division boundaries are not yet being examined at Our wards are dramatically different in size right this point, but the full-time council is going to mean now. If some of the ward boundaries taken by the that people are going to have to give up their jobs. Ross commission would have followed with the I am in the process of selling my company at the population trends we have before us, even if you moment in preparation for this. Four years is no equalized the wards today-or let us go back five guarantee-a person Is taking a chance with their years and use 1986 figures-beforethe nextreview, personal career, their family's life and security for by the year 2000, some wards, if they were totally the future; but three-it is not going to go beyond equal then, would be more than twice the size of four and should not anyway-is a little bit much. others. What I am afraid of is that people who have a good What happens Is, in keeping neighbourhoods career, or who have built a good business but are together, it seems to me that the areas that are still in the building stage, still have growingfamilies, suffering a population drain end up, every time we just will not be able to give it up for a chance have a Boundaries Commission, starting offwith the at-what?-one three-year term. We know there smallest wards, and they are losing population. are no certainties in politics but a lot of us, who do Those in the suburban areas, that tend to have the not have the privilege of working for government or most growth, startout as the largest ward, and by a few other unionized positions, are not having the time there is another review, three elections positions held for us to go back. down the road in many cases-and this happened It might be inconvenient. It might cost a little bit to me last time and Councillor Demare from St. of money to go to a four-year term before the school Vital-ourwards were morethan twicethe size of a divisions are done, but the calibre of candidate and number of inner city wards. the amount we are asking of each of these Now, maybe there is more to do and maybe more candidates for a civic election, I believe make it attention should be paid to these inner city areas, worthwhile. Ofall the things I have said today, both and I do not dispute that, but representation by the maybe importantand a few minor thingsfor sure, population is not just an Americanism, it is a this is the thing I wish to leave you with most cornerstone of democracy. strongly. A longer term will give you better July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 157

candidates, will be fairer to the candidates in the amount, approximately $500,000 are for future council. If It requires a little work and Salaries-Permanent for the city councillors. manipulation, I thinkit is worth it. The General Government section Is The success of this legislation will be largely approximately 5.8 percent of the total Tax judged one way or the other on the success of the Supported budget; the Council department is first council. Inviting the most and best qualified approximately 0.2 percent of the total Tax people to run is the best thing you can do to show Supported budget. The councillors salary is only off your legislation as having been a success. The approximately 0.08 percent of the total Tax four-yearterm, I believe more than anything else, Supported budget. would help ensure a better quality of candidate. This information showsthe salaries of councillors That is all I have to say. Thank you. and all the supportservices associated with council Madam Chairman: Thank you, Councillor as being approximately $1 million. From this O'Shaughnessy; thank you for your presentation. amount only approximately $500,000 are for Mr. Gordon Mackie. Mr. Bernie Wolfe. Mr. Gle n salaries of council. This is arrived at by multiplying Hewitt. I would just remind committee members 24 councillors times $16,000, for a total of $396,000, that Mr. Hewitt's presentation has been distributed. and addingto that total $105,000 for four standing Please proceed,Mr. Hewitt. committee chairpersons and a deputy mayor at Mr.Glen Hewitt (St.BonHace-St. Vhal Resident $21 ,000. Advisory Group): Good evening, Madam The committee shouldbe aware thatcouncil is not Chairman. I appear tonight on behalf of the St. only responsiblefor Tax Supported budget but also Boniface-St. Vital Resident Advisory Group. the Utility budget and the Capital budget, and by The St. Boniface-St. Vital Resident Advisory adding these amounts into the equation, the cost of Group can agree with some of the conclusions council, or the councillors'salary, is very small. reached by themi nister as presented in this bill, that Should this committee recommend the size of being: the pie-shapedwards are not theway to go; council be reducedto 12 to 15 councillors,we would and the need for more citizen participation at City assume thatthe councillorswould have to become Hall. full time and their salaries must be changed We will limit our commentsto night to three Issues accordingly. Using 15 councillors and assuming that we believe are smoke screens that are being theamount of salaries would notbe increased-that presentedto thecitizens of Winnipeg: being $500,000--each councillor would receive 1. the citizens of Winnipeg will save money by approximately $30,000. Committee chairpersons reducingthe size of City Council; and the deputy mayor wouldreceive approximately $40,000. 2. reducing the size of the City ofWinnipeg Council would make it more efficient In the We feel this amount Is not enough to entice defivery of services to the pubfic;and peopleto give up their jobs. So we have suggested that the salariesbe changed to reflectthe new duties 3. the provincial Conservatives have a and responsibilities of the councillors. We suggest mandate to reduce the size of City Council. each committee chairperson and a deputy mayor • (2220) receive at least $45,000 and that the other Number 1, Ms. Chairperson, we take the liberty to councillors receive at least $35,000, for a total, include certain pages of the 1991 Working Papers approximately, of $600,000. Furthermore, we of the City of Winnipeg Current Estimates, which are would recommend all councillors' tax-free included at the back of your package. allowance be increased. We would also The pages titled Tax Supported, Summary and recommend that the mayor's salary be adjusted to Comparison, show the total budget as being reflectthehistorical differencebetween the salaries. approximately $61 5 million, and of this amount the The support staff must also be increased to General Government section shows a cost of service full-timecouncillors. We would recommend approximately $35.5 million. Of this amount, the each committeechairpe rson and thedeputy mayor Council department, account No. 01-020201 , be assigneda clerk Bandthe remaining councillors showsa costof approximately $1 million, andof this be assigned a clerk A. 158 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

We would also suggest thateach person running Therefore, to suggest that reducing the size of for council should receive a return on the election City Councilwould make the delivery of services to cost, since we believe this must be factored in since the public more efficientis only a smoke screen. the cost of running an election campaign would be The Conservatives and theLiberals had the same similar to that of a person running in a federal or plank in theirelection campaign,that ofreducing the provincial election. So, as the committee can see, size of City Council. So, the question should be, the cost of council must be increased in the belief why did the Liberals end up in third place in the that the citizens of Winnipeg will save money by recent election? The responseis that other issues reducing the size of City Council is only a smoke were more Importantthan this particular plank. screen. We would point out to the committee that during This committee should be reminded thatcouncil the provincial election a major change In the tax does not deliver servicesto the citizens of Winnipeg. process was taking place, that beingreass essment. Services are delivered by the administration. This affected the outer areas of thecity, where most Council should be making policy statements and of the Liberals' and Conservatives' support Is. So directing the administration to implement these we would assume that it would be in the interest of policies. Thus,reducing thesize of City Council will both parties to present a plank that included a have no effect on the day-to-day running of thecity. change In the city structure, and the only one the provincial governmentcould change was to reduce Maybe the problem with the present council the size of City Council. If these two parties were system ofgove rnmentwithin the city ofWinnipeg is that Interested in reducing the cost to the city of that they do not understand the function of Winnipeg taxpayers, they would look at the school government compared to the function of the boards and maybe look at their own house. administration. We wouldthink re ducingthe size of council from 29 to 12-1 5 will not improve the We wouldlike to take sometime to reference the servicesdelivered to the citizensof Winnipeg. Report of the Winnipeg Wards Review Committee dated May of 1991. In its report, the committee Would reducing the size of councilim prove policy recommended in Section 1 .2 that the statutory making decisions? We would point out that forthe requirement for maintaining the community last number of years, wehad the Gangof 18 running committees and resident advisory groups be thecity. We only have to lookat the financialmess repealed from The City of Winnipeg Act. Section we are In todayto understandthat a smaller size of 1.3 states thatin thealternati ve, In the event that the number of councillors makes no difference, but If statutory requirement for the community this committee could guarantee to the citizens of committees Is retained,their number be reduced by Winnipeg that between12 and 15 councillors would one from six to five,and Section 2.1 states that the only make correctpolicy statements, thenwe would reduced number of Winnipeg city councillorsbe set agree with the recommendation. We knowthat the at 15. committee could not guarantee this. We will point out to the committeethat Section 2.1 The committee has been using Calgary and states 15 councillors and Section 1.3 states five Edmonton as examples of an efficient form of community committees. This would mean three government, but we would remind you that these councillors per community committee. cities have a completely different system of We would pointout on page 15 ofthe report, the delivering services to the public. These two cities committee wrote, as evidenced by the problems of have a standard of living that is higher than three councillors, St. James-Assiniboia community Winnipeg, and they also pay higher taxes. We committee, the community committee system would like to pointout that they have onlyone school requires a minimum of four councillors to be division. Is this committee going to recommend that effective. Itwould seem the committee is saying, if the present system of delivering services to the the government is to retain the community citizens of Winnipeg change to reflect that of committees as theminister has stated recently then, Calgary and Edmonton? We would suggest that using common sense, at least the number of the answer would be no. councillors should be 20. July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 159

In conclusion, Madam Chairperson, the St. Mr. Hewitt: If I might, what you are suggesting is Boniface Resident Advisory Group can see no thatthe councillors actually getthat money, but they logicalreason to change the size of City Council. do not actually get the money, the city pays that What scaresthe group is the reasons we believe money, not tothe councillors, but out of the citycut. the Conservatives are doingthis: 1 ) to eliminate the The moneydoes not actually go to thecouncillors . poorfrom running for council;2) to eliminate public Mr. Ernst: Yes, it does go to the councillors. It is access to theirelected officials; 3) to eliminate the just not taxed. opposition on council. Mr. Hewitt: In thebudget it is listed under a service We would ask that this committee review the for that particular department. It is not listed as a overall picture thatthis recommendationwould have salary or a benefit. If it was a salary, it would be a on the citizens of Winnipeg. We would also remind benefit or- you that this system has been in place for a number Mr. Ernst: The category again, if the delegation of years and to rush to make changes for some again refers to page 17, it says nontaxable misguided reason is stupid. Indemnity. Indemnityis in fact an amountof money We would ask the committee to delay making a paidto someone. I again donot want to debate the recommendationtill afterthe 199 2 electionand then issue. I think if you do review this afterwards, you form a committee made up of citizens ofWinnipeg will see that in fact they do get that money and, if recommended by concerned groups and that their you ask a councillorwhat his salary Is, it will be more mandate not be limited to any recommendation, as than the amount that you stated in your proposal. was the case with the Winnipeg Wards Review That is the onlycomment I have, Madam Chairman. Committee. We thankthe committeefor allowing us Mr. Hewitt: Could I make one more commentthat thetime to make this presentation. is not included in my remarks that in the Winnipeg Madam Chalnnan: Thankyou, Mr. Hewitt. Wards Review boundary, the particular wardthat I Mr. Ernst: Thank you, Madam Chairman, and have for the scenario of 15 wards, which is ward thank you for your presentation,sir, on behalf of your one, has me living in a ward with 52,000 people, resident advisorygrou p. which I think is a little bit over and above what anybodyever estimated as the size of award. In the calculations, and I do not dispute the conclusion, but I do dispute the fact In your Mr. Ernst: I mightsuggest first of all thatthose are calculationsregarding the cost of City Council,if you not the boundaries that will be determined lookat the pagesatta ched to your brief, you will see ultimately. Those weredone for planning purposes, on what Is numberedas page 17, that is thesecond I believe, although I cannot formally say that, page of thecity budget pages you provided,that you because I was not present at the timethat it was have left out a quarterof amillion dollars of costs for considered. City Council not included In your calculations. What is going to happen though is that the Winnipeg Ward Boundaries Commission will be * (2230) sitting, assuming the bill passes, over the next The salary calculationsin City Council are divided period of time between now and November to into two parts, taxable and nontaxable. There are actually draw ward boundaries that are formalized two different sections in the budget dealing with it. with appropriate population adjustments to meet Your calculations has it listed in the content, or the requirements. text of your brief appears to have left out a quarter of a million dollars of cost to the city of Winnipeg. Mr. Hewitt: Just a further question then to the Chair. Is it the intent of this committee thenthat the Mr. Hewitt: I am not going to debate with you. wards will be limited to a number and then it would Mr. Ernst: I do not want to debate the conclusion, be up to ward boundaries to suggest a line? because I happen to supportthe general conclusion Mr. Ernst: Yes. that you came to. I have doneso right from the start of this process, but you are in error there and left a Mr. Hewitt: Is there a recommendation as to the significant part out, and I do not want you to be number? caught by somebody else who may not be as Mr. Ernst: The bill contains a clause that would forgiving. limitthe number of wards in the city ofWinnipeg to 160 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

15. That is the purpose of themeeting heretonight. province in general andto the residents ofWinnipeg That is why we are meeting,to discussthis bill which in particular. What Mr. Ernst is saying, Madam says 15 councillors. Chairperson, is that all previous committees Mr. Hewitt: I do not think that was my question. I investigating this issue have been sacrificial lambs asked you if there was a number for each ward. on the altar of the Minister of Urban Affairs and that Would you say thatthe number is going to bebased theviews of Winnipeg voters mean nothingto him. on an existingnumber from timeto time, or is it going Mr. Ernst has also said that reducing the size of to be at 20,000 andthen it is going to be increased City Council was an election promise, and I would till we get more? ask this committee, to whom? Your government, Mr. Ernst: The question of the number of Madam Chairperson, only won 13 of 31 seats in representatives or the number of people Winnipeg, hardly a majority. It only won 30 of 57 represented in each ward will be determined by the seats in the province, a very narrow majority. The Ward Boundaries Commission. They will simply 13 seats your government won in Winnipeg take thetotal population and divide it by the number represent only 22 percent of the seats available in of wards. They haveto give you an approximation, the last election. Ifyour governmentwas instituting and then they have the right, I think, to adjust 1 0 a policy of reducing the size of City Council in all percent in either direction to try and fit the pieces provincial ridings, then your provincial majority together. There will be public hearings on the would mean something. Then you would have a question of thesize and theconfiguration of wards, mandate. and you will have an opportunity to make A mandate carries with it the implication that a representation before that commission when it majority of thepeople agreewith a particular issue, meets later thisyear . but that is not what your government is saying, Madam Chairman: Thank you for your Madam Chairperson. Your government is saying presentation,Mr. Hewitt. Dr. Jim Shapiro? Please that the people of the province of Manitoba are proceed, Dr. Shapiro. concerned about the size of City Council in Winnipeg. Now, Madam Chairperson, I may be Dr. Jim Shapiro (St. Germain Residents bald,but I am notstupid. Your governmentdoes not Association): Madam Chairperson and members really expect me to believe that the people in the of thecommittee, my name is Dr. Shapiro. I am the riding of Rupertslandor Turtle Mountain or Emerson president of the St. Germain Community or Thompson or wherever give one hoot about the Association. I am also thevice-chai rperson of the size of City Councilin Winnipeg. So when Mr. Ernst St. Boniface-St. Vital Resident Advisory Group and says that his government has a mandate to reduce the vice-chairperson of the IntraCity Resident the size of City Council, that statement is simply AdvisoryGro up. I am not affiliatedwith anypolitical false. party. While we are on thetop ic, Madam Chairperson, I I tell you these things not because I am would like to point out that your government's representingthese groups, but so that you will know statements seem to indicate that the only plank in something about me and my background. their platform was one of reducing the size of City Madam Chairperson, nothing is more dangerous Council in Winnipeg. Since they won the election than an idea,especially when it is the only idea that they seem to think that they must implement this one has. Your government seems to be obsessed aspect of their campaign. But, Madam with the idea of reducing the size of Winnipeg City Chairperson,the Liberals ran on thesame issue and Council. The Minister of Urban Affairs, the they came in third. The NDP ran against such a Honourable Jim Ernst, is quoted as saying that his proposal, andthey came in second. Ifreducing the government is committed to reduce the size of City size of City Council was the only plank on which the Council. In other words, City Council is going to be PC government platform rested, then how do you reduced-period, end of discussion. accountfor the fact that the other parties did aswell, Mr. Ernst's decision has been made. There is or not as well, with the same issue? nothing leftto talk about. I must saythat I find this Obviously, Madam Chairperson, there is more to attituderepulsive in a democracy, abhorrentin a free a campaign than one issue. Indeed, political society, and condescending to the voters of this campaigns are deliberately made into emotional July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 161

orgies designed to distract attention from the real it was representing. Normally, a government puts Issues involved. They are designedto paralyze the out a white paperor a position paper on a particular powers of thinking the electorate can normally topic that Is available to the public to peruse and muster. So how canthe PC government repeatedly study. Your government's white paper, Madam tell the public that they have a mandate to reduce Chairperson, is blank paper. Your governmenthas the size of City Council, as H there was just oneissue not given the people of Winnipeg one shred of at stake? evidence that a reduced City Council would be advantageous to the residents of Winnipeg. Your Furthermore, Madam Chairperson, I would like to government has given the solution to an unvoiced know which policy your government is referring to problem. It has given the answer to an unasked when they say they have a mandate-all campaign question. Again I ask, why should we reduce the promises, or just selected ones that have some size of City Council? advantage for the government now in power? H your government says that they have a mandate, The PC governmenthas not given the electorate then they will have to address all campaign of Winnipeg one reason why theyshould believethe promises as If that is their mandate. But your PC government's claim that a reduced City Council government never said that in Its campaign, never would be more advantageous than our current City said that any one policy was any more important Council. The lack of any terms of reference Is than any other policy. So why is reducing the size Insulting to the intelligence of Winnipeg residents. of City Council so important to your government With no stated rationale for changing the size and when they have already rejected other campaign shape ofwards, your government can be accused promises-for example, to decentralizecivil service of gerrymanderingfor their own political objectives. jobs from Winnipeg to rural Manitoba? They have Unfortunately, I do believe that many residents of also rejected the plan to cut theeducational funding Winnipeg believe that a reduced City Councilwould burden on property taxpayers. These campaign save thecity some money, but we knowthat Is not promiseshave already been broken. true. Even Mr. Ernst admitsthat .

• (2240) It has been stated that a smaller City Council would be more efficient. Well, efficient for whom So again I ask: Why is it so Important for your and in what way? There is no guarantee that a government to reduce the size of City Council in smaller councilwould be a more efficientcouncil. H Winnipeg? Your governmentdid not get a majority you want efficiency, installdictator a asyour form of of the people in Winnipeg to agree to reduce the size municipal government;if you want democracy, stay of their City Council. You cannot reasonably tell with the current system. Democracy, by its very residents of Winnipeg that the residents of towns nature, is not efficient, but there is nothing written and villages outsideof Winnipeg care about the size thatsays thata large council cannot be efficient. To of Winnipeg's City Council. Even Ifthey did, Madam be concerned with efficiency is reasonable; to be Chairperson, they are not empowered by The City obsessed with efficiency at the expense of of Winnipeg Act to vote in any municipal matters democracy is unreasonable. inside the bordersof thecity of Winnipeg. If there is no good reason for reducing thesize of If the majority of the residents within the city of City Council, Madam Chairperson, there Is no Winnipeg did not vote fora reduction in the size of if logical or sane reason for doing so, then your their City Council,and the residentsin the rest ofthe government is encouraging the public to come up province do not care, then who is fostering this with illogical reasons, bad reasons, false reasons, condition onto the residents of Winnipeg? The insane reasons. The number of possible bad answer, Madam Chairperson, is your government. reasons that could be generated Is only limited by The question Is-why? We do not know. We do of know, however, that your governmenfs provincial theingenuity the originator. The point is thatyour government, for whatever undisclosed reason, is majority does not mean that they can impose fostering upon the residents of Winnipeg a policy conditions on Winnipeg residents that Winnipeg that has not been aired. It has not beendebated, it residents do not want. has not been discussed or even open to a public The situation would be vastly different, Madam forum. Your government is exercising the raw Chairperson, ifyour gove rnment had a position that power of a majority. Power politicsIs thediplomatic 162 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

name for the law of thejungle, and the people of Finally, No. 8. If such a course of action was Winnipeg deserve a better fate than to be fed as pursued successfully, then Winnipeg residents meat to the PC Party. H legitimacy and integrity of would be denied their fair share of democracy. If process are the cornerstone of governments, then liberty and equality are the by-products of a your government is violating both, and in the end, I democracy, they are best attainedwhen all persons believe itwill suffer. alike share in the government to the utmost. Your government's idea would prevent that. There are consequences to reducing the size of City Council and I would like to discuss those with One reason why democracy would suffer would you for a few moments. The first possible be because the concept of community committees consequencemay very well be a courtchallenge . If would be altered, either in number or function or thatocc urs, yourgove rnment's desire to implement both. The community committee, Madam such a change by the municipal election of 1992 Chairperson, is simply thebest showin town. There may be held up, and the entire exercise will have is no admission charge. There is no cover charge. been counterproductive. The process of deciding Ithas fantastic comedy. I cannot rememberwhen I whether City Council should be reduced in size have laughed as hard as I have when I heardsome shouldbe impartial,but it should also be seen to be of the gaffes, the jokes and faux pas that have impartial. H that is not the case, your governmentis occurred at community committee meetings, but inviting charges of gerrymandering, encouraging a community committee meetings also have great court challenge, anddamaging its own reputation. drama. Think of 1 00 residents crowded into a council chamber, half of them want a project Second, each councillor would represent approved and haH of hemt are opposedto it. What two-thirds the populationof federal ridingsand twice is the area councillor going to do and on what basis thatof provincial constituencies. is he or she goingto rendera verdict? Will he or she Third, thecost to runa campaign in such a large go for the votes or strive to retain some degree of riding would just be too rich for most local, humanity in municipal politics? You think, what independentcandidat es. would I do under similar circumstances? You wait for the decision. High drama, because it involves Fourth,only thewell-heeled , thewell-connected, something very intimate to the area residents and thewell-placed wouldbe able to run for office. This because this is a democracy where we can still simply is not democratic. Furthermore, larger discussthese issueswithout exchanging bullets or wards would encourage blocks of candidates to blows. bandtogether to share campaign expenses such as brochures, mailing costs, advertisements and so * (2250) forth. It would encourage corporate donations to The community committee also Involves pathos individual candidates marking the end of the when neighbourhoods begin to change, when old democratic process and, given this situation, who values begin to give way to modem technology, will represent those segments of society that the when lofty ideals and honoured objectives are corporations are not interested in, such as various defeated and the bestof Intentions with the greatest citizens groups, minorities, the disadvantaged, the of effortscome crashing to the ground,leaving those poor, aboriginal people, inner-city residents and so involved feeling defeated and frustratedand abused forth? and defenceless. Madam Chairperson, there Is a FHth,there will be more provincial representation vein of poetry that seems to exist in the hearts of for the same number of people than there is many people. Listening to them at community municipally. committees makes one want to hear a lot more of that poetry. Sixth, in all probability hired officials will have to At the community committee meetings one can decide on zoning matters which are currently see great couragewhen an individualstands before handledby local councillors who are familiarwith the a potentially imposing and intimidating group of neighbourhood. individuals and struggles to do that which is so Seventh, reducing the size of City Council would difficult for most people, that is give a presentation, double the workload and would mean that local act as a delegation or present a point ofview. You issues were decided by councillorswho were not. have to admire the fortitude and the strength of July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 163

theseIndividuals, M adam Chairperson, and you can responsive andaccountable to the peoplehe orshe ask, what makes them doIt? I believe It is a sincere represents as Is humanly possible. and honest desire to preserve or enhance or In 1970, Metro Winnipeg corporation's political facintate some aspect oftheir commu nity. It is that structureconsisted of 1 0 elected membersfor some important to them. 500,000 people. It was felt that the situation The community committee is grassroots affordedgreater Winnipegcitizens extrem ely limited involvement par excellence. Yet, I do not see access to theirrepresentatives on Metro Council. It community committees listed as one of the 100 was felt that there were far too few councillors to reasons to love Winnipeg, but they should be. permit a high degree of contact betweencouncillors Community committees are open, democratic and constituents. forums which are sensitive to the needs of the Your government's desire to reduce the size of communities and the peoplewithin them. City Council, Madam Chairperson, would take us Community committees deal with the back to the former situation Instead ofImproving the quality-of-life questions In one's neighbourhood. It current one. Your government's objective should concerns one's child, one's desire to have a park be to reduce the number of citizens per elected nearby or a set of swings or a wading pool or the representative or at least to guarantee that It will frequency of garbage pickup or no garbage pickup. remain at the current level. al It Is the Informal atmosphere of one's loc Community committees are composed ofwar ds. community committee in which one can discuss In most cases, these wards are based on local, local issues with local councillors. The community historical or traditional boundaries. In other words, committee is the political gymnasium where area thewards are Ideally based on natural andfamiliar residents can exercise theirpolitical muscles. Just community groupings. The purpose of such as one finds newfound enjoyment in discovering groupings Is to strengthen local character and muscles that you never knew you had before, in a identity. Your government's former proposal to similar fashion residents find that they can introduce pie-shaped wards would defeat this participate In decisions affecting them, their objective. Instead of providing a structure in format neighbours, and Indeed their community, and to encouragecitizen Involvement In theaf fairs of the perhaps just maybe some of these Individuals will community, your government would be continue to be Involved with their resident discouraging, not encouraging, citizen Involvement. associations and neighbourhood groups because There would be no community from which citizens they nowknow that theycan. would be involved. This reasoning extends to any That Is Important, Madam Chairperson, because other ward which would cut across the local, if democracy Is going to die, It is not likely to be by historical and traditional boundaries of the assassination from ambush. It will be a slow communities. extinction from apathy, indifference and Why would anindividual want to become involved undernourishment, and this is why theconcept of in an Issue that is remote from his neighbourhood, community committeesmus t not be tampered with. but which technically is in a politically defined area We want to encourage our residents to participate which includes this individual's community? H you in the political process. This is why, one could close avenues of political access, citizens certainly argue, that the number of community committees will not participate In local government. If you shouldbe increased, not just allowed toremain the provide avenues of political access, citizens may same and certainly not to decrease in number. respond. That is why it is Important to obtain I say that last statement, Madam Chairperson, community committeesand to strengthenthem with knowingfull well thatmost of the implications which resident advisory groups. would follow from such a concept, such as The community committees must provide ready increasing the size of City Council. Community access by the people to the local government committees were Initially established to facilitate system. Democracy is government by the people, citizen participation and involvement with local Madam Chairperson. By doing anything that will government. They were based on the assumption reduce the ability of the people to govern, the PC that the elected representative must always be as government Is only serving Its own objectives and 164 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

not those of the peoplewho elected you. A people's Madam Chairperson, the most frightening thing government is made for the people,it is made by the about your government to me is the fact that they people, and it is answerable to the people. H your have given no reasons for their decision to reduce government is going to threaten our democracy, the size of City Council. They have not indicated then it will be making Winnipeg a place where the whether it would be better or worse for the residents candle of hope no longer shines with the result that of Winnipeg. Most importantly, they have not we may become a city cloaked in the darkness of indicated the evidence on which they based their the damned. That will be your government'slegacy arguments and the criteria by which that evidence to our city. was evaluated. Other commissions formed to do the same exact thinghave done that. I believe that That situation is not likely to make the list of 1 00 if the PC government has a good idea, let us talk reasons to love Winnipeg. Democracy is direct about it, let us hear what you have to say. If it is a self-government over all the people, by all the good idea,let us air it, let us debate it, let us discuss people, and for all the people. Your government's it. proposed actions will redefine democracy to mean the bludgeoning of the people, by the people, and .. 2300)( for the people. In a democratic society like ours, On the other hand, I must frankly tell you, I am relief from objectionable actions or proposals must equally frightened by the attitude of the residents of come throughan aroused popular conscience that Winnipeg. In thelast municipal election, 67 percent sears the conscience of the people's of them did not vote. Very few of them have representatives. appeared at any of the hearings convened to I hope this hearing senses the still mostly discuss this issue. I am afraid that the residents of unspoken will of the peopleto the membersof your Winnipeg have become apathetic, uninterested government and sears your collective conscience and, most frighteningly of all, uninformed. Perhaps so that you react as If someone touched a raw what we needis a Spicer Commission for Winnipeg exposed collective nerve. I hope that Mr. Ernst residents, a forum to give ordinary average takes notice and asks himself,is this really the right Winnipeggersa chanceto talk about theircity. Too way to go? often we hear the refrain, you cannot fight City Hall. This attitudeis unfortunate since our current mode I hope that some of the members of your of municipal governmentwas set up to encourage government's majority ask themselves ifthis issue decision making at a level as accessible as possible is one which they can live with, if they choose to for the citizens directly affected by it. suppress democracy in our city. I hope they ask Community committees were set up to represent themselvesif they must vote with your government City Council at the local level. Their primary or if this is an issue so important that they must vote responsibility was to develop communication with their consciences even if it brings down your between the city and the residents of the government. community. Resident advisory groups were I alsohope thatthis issue educates the residents established to represent the people to the of Winnipeg, Madam Chairperson. I hope the community committee. These twogroups acting in residents of Winnipeg realize that they are about to parallel, one on the government side and one on the be deprived of something that in other countries citizen side, were to be the means by which the people are willing to die for. I hope the residents of people and the government would communicate. It Winnipeg become educated, because education is a unique system in Canada, and it encourages makes people easy to govern but impossible to participatory democracy. Unfortunately, there is a enslave. No governmentis goodenough to govern built-in antagonism betweenelected public officials other peoplewithout the consent of those people. I and politically active citizens' groups. So, although truly believe in the current form of municipal they were mandated by The City of Winnipeg Act, government. I believe it is a government of the City Council never gave the RAG groups any people,and by the people, and for the people. I do significant policy making or administrative functions not believethat it should be a government acting in to perform, and they never allocated them any place of the people or instead of thepeop le. financial resources to carry out their functions. July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 165

The shortage of funds restricted their ability to simply something I cannot condone. The changes conductresearch and publicizedtheir actions. You that the PC government Is proposing in local cannot expect residents to participate for long if government should facilitate participatory there is little or no point in their participating. So, democracy, encourage resident involvement and over the years, we have had a public that has been educate the residents about the form of their local less and less informed about a more Important issue government. You should centralize the delivery of In their lives, that Is, public representation of their services and politically decentralize public concernsto their local government. Any conclusion representation. You should be making accessibility that the RAG's contributions to the effectiveness of to elected representatives easierand more frequent community committees have not been noteworthy instead of suggesting changes that would have the Is to put the cart before the horse. You cannot opposite effect. You should be recommending destroy a system and then say, it has not been changes that would make delivery of services more effective. efficient and less costly to the citizens of Winnipeg. The community committeeswere to provide local In that vein, Madam Chairperson, I do have some services and to facilitate communication between specific recommendations to make that might just the city government and local residents. The accomplish these objectives. They are as follows. resident advisorygroups were to provide input to the I will be giving you copies of this after my community committee concerningsuch items as city presentation, so you will have copies of these finances, programs, planning and development recommendations. decisions. Today our residents do not know what Number 1, do not reduce the number of the functions of the community committee are, and councillors. To do so would just centralize the theydo not know what thefunctions of the resident political processand reduce the accessibility of local advisory groups are supposed to be. When councillors to those they are supposed to be Winnipegresidents complained about not having a representing. The six community committees have say In local government or a say on financial really workedquite successfuUy In Winnipeg. Given matters, theydo not realize that theydo have a say a minimum of three councillors per community in such matters. They simply do not understand committee as an absolutelyIrreducible number, and how they can avail themselves of such servicesand allowing for various population densities, 29 howthey can participate. councillors then represent the smallest councilthat Instead of even suggesting that the number of we should haveto preserve democracyin Winnipeg. councillors be reduced, the provincial government Number 2, the number ofwards , theirshape and shouldbe educating its citizens about theprocesses their names shouldremain the same. Any changes available to them. We need more Informed to the existing wards can be handled by the residents participating in the RAG groups and Winnipeg Wards Boundaries Commission which Is co-operating with the community committees to mandated under The City of Winnipeg Act. enhance local control over local matters with local councillors concerning local Issues and affecting Number 3, have the mayor elected by and from local residents. the elected councillors. In other words, the mayor would not be elected at large. He would represent Educationis the firstpart of politics. It is also the a ward like all other councillors but would be elected second part and the third part. Your government by the largest block of elected councillors. The should be concentratingits efforts on educating the result of this process would be that councillors electorate and freeing them from a yoke of representing a majorityof the electorate's concerns, ignorance that they are currently wearing. The on at least one Issue, would be able to elect the problem facing your government, as I see it, is not mayor. They would also formally Introduce party in reducing the size of City Council or in changing politics to municipal government. the shape of existing wards but in educating the residents of Winnipeg concerning their local Number 4, eliminate the Board of Commissioners government and showing them how they can and the bureaucracy that they control. participate In it. Number 5, give the community committees the Using ignorance of the rules to take advantage of power to make local decisions and give them a local residents for the government's own sake is budget toimplement these decisions. 166 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

Number 6, refine the responsibilities of the democracyas Itcurrently can be, not necessarily as resident advisors groupsto supervise the provision Itac tually exists today. of these services, as they were originally intended Second, it gives councillors a long term of office to do. to learn how the city actually runs and to learn how Number 7, councillors should be elected for to operate a particular aspect of the city. six-year terms. Councillors in administrative positions would have Number 8, one-third of council would be elected department heads that would oversee the business every two years. In each of four community of the day. Over a period of time those councillors committee areas two councillors would be elected who are predisposed to such administrative duties every two years with a single councillor being will fill those posts, andthose who are not will not do elected In the next electionyear. In one community so, or they will be voted out of office if they are committee one councillor will be elected every two incompetent. years, while in a third area two councillors will be The electorate will have direct control over the elected every two years. administration of city services In that they can voice Number 9, municipal candidates obtaining 10 their concernsabout the performanceof a particular percent ofthe vote cast should be compensated for service at the ballot box. The budget process is a their election expenses. case in point. Currently, thebudget Is prepared by the city administration and reflects what they think Number 10, councillors should be full-time is required to financially run the city and what they employees of thecity. think the politicians will accept. Why not let the Number 11 , councillors should be paid around politicians make up the budget to reflect whatthey $70,000 per year. They would have secretaries, think is required to financially run the city? With the research staff and offices equipped with those voter's finger on the re-election trigger, I venture to machines necessary to effectively and efficiently say that what is required to financially run the city deal with the public and withcity councillors. H you will take on a differentappearance . want to know why the salary,council lors under your proposed scheme wouldbe doing roughlytwice the By electingsome councillors everytwo years, the work of an MLA in terms of the people they would electorate will have more control overthe direction be representing,so they shouldbe paid accordingly. in whichthey want City Councilto go. Not allwards In addition,when you addon the perks of the MLAs would elect a councillor every twoyears, but in each the salaries become almost equal. community committee area there would be an opportunityfor the electorate to work for a candidate Number 12, councillors In positions of authority theyfeel will do the most good for their community would take over the positions currently held by the committeearea every two years. Eventually,if such Board of Commissioners. The problem with the candidates were elected for a majority of the time, Winnipeg city government is the size of our theelectorate would bein a position to control City bureaucracy and the amount of influence and Council much more than they can at the present control theyexert over elected representatives. time. At the same time, It would be in the best • (2310) interest of the community if concerned residents Number 13, such councillors would be participated in local government through the RAG responsible to council for proposing policy but groups to achieve local objectives with their local responsible for the delivery of services to thepublic councillors through their community committee. at the sametime. By not duplicating the costs of operating a City This system, Madam Chairperson, has several Council and a Board of Commissioners, the costs of advantages to it over the policy proposed by your operating the city will be reduced. By centralizing government. Rrst, it maintains the possibility of the delivery of city services and reducing the enhancing participatory democracy in Winnipeg. It six-district concept, the cost of running the city will does not reduce the number of wards and provides be reduced and probably be more efficient. By the possibility of educating the public about its role decentralizing the political process, accessibility of in local government. It at least maintains councillors to local residents would be enhanced. July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 167

These, Madam Chairperson,are my suggestions. Mr. Shapiro: No, Mr. Enns, that is not what I I donot claim that they are thebest suggestionsthat meant. What I meant was the Progressive can be offered to your committee at this time or at Conservative government is not giving the residents any time in the foreseeable future. Indeed, there of Winnipeg one shred of evidence about why this are some problems associated with my single idea of reducing City Council is suggestions. For example, how do you elect a advantageous. Hit is advantageous, I wantto know mayor from a revolving council? I do not know. why, and if it is not advantageous, I also want to What do you mean by a full-time councillor? I know why. So by being obsessed with one idea, cannot offeryou a satisfactory definition at this time, that is, repeatedly telling us through the pres$ that but one thing thatI am suggestingto you is that your this citygove rnment is goingto be reduced-endof government's proposed actions are discussion-!would like to know why. counterproductive and unwarranted. Nothing is Mr. Enns: Obviously, Dr. Shapiro, it is the idea of more terrible than Ignorance in action, and reduction, in thiscase , thatis upsetting you. Again, unfortunately your government is giving every you refer to it as repulsive, abhorrent, Indication that Is exactlywhat it is doing. anti-democratic. I mean, this is not thefirst time Nothing is more damaging to a new truththan an reform has come to the City of Winnipeg and old error. If the new truthis an enhanced municipal surrounding area of government. You are well government that is more accessible and more aware of it. You refer to It in yourbrief. H I were to efficientand less costly to its residentsthen, Madam describe to you a raw exercise of the power of a Chairperson, your government Is potentially about majority, then you would have to recall the actions to wreak great damage on the citizens ofWinnipeg of an NDP Urban Affairs minister, under the then by committing an old error. Schreyer NDP administration, thatwiped out13 , 14 In the 1960s, In the Metropolitan Winnipeg municipal governments, including the City of St. Council, voter turnout was extremely low. It was BonHace In its totality. thought to be because the wards were too large. We heard an eloquentappeal by a presenter just Before we repeat our failures of the past, let us previous to you, Councillor Murray, who chastised determine how to remedy them so that we do not the governmentfor reducingthe representation from repeat them again. the city of St. BonHace. In an NDP administration, Mr. Saul Cherniack, wiped outthe mayor and entire Thank you for taking the time to listen to my council of the city ofSt. BonHace, along with 13, 14 presentation, Madam Chairpersonand members of other mayors and reeves, along with some 100 the committee. I knowthat itwas longerthan most, councillors andaldermen, as theywere then called. but I do appreciate your courtesy while listeningto Was thataction on the partof a majoritygove rnment me. repulsive, abhorrent and anti-democraticto you, sir? Madam Chairman: Thank you, Dr. Shapiro. Mr. Shapiro: I cannot comment on that specific Hon. Harry Enns {Minister of Natural aspectof your question, Mr. Enns, but I want to point Resources): Dr. Shapiro, I am intrigued with your out it is not the reduction in City Council which is presentation. I wantto acknowledgethat very much repulsive, abhorrent and anti-democratic, but the of what you have told us today is very procedure by which I perceive the Progressive excellent-thoughts on local government-and Conservative government going about trying to certainlyworthy of consideration by this or any other achieve that objective. That objective may be committee, or indeed city administration. But I am laudable and advantageous to the residents of troubled with many other partsof your presentation. Winnipeg. Tell us why. Where is your white paper? You caught my attention immediately in your What is your position? Let me know. I am willing to opening sentence,when you suggested nothing-if discuss it with you, but you are not allowing me to. I am paraphrasing you right-is more dangerous It is the procedure, not the objective which is than an idea. Surely you are not suggesting that repulsive. those of us, who from time to time get elected to Mr. Enns: Dr. Shapiro, you know, it has really office, shouldbe nothing but a collection of vacuous concerned me, in fact, saddened me that over the airheads, bereftof any idea. That cannot be what last period of time in these committees I and you meant, sir. members of my governmentare being consistently 168 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

charged with being anti-democratic in some way or open and free society where we do not have laws other. that charge a penalty for people if they do not vote-that is a pretty clear democraticexpression of We had, on another bill the other evening, a will on the part ofthe citizens of Winnipeg. presenter telling us how undemocratic we were in a particularbill, and he was asked-was he giving up I do not take offence if you tell me it is a lousy bill. on democracy? He described that, well, you could I do not take offence ifyou think it is a foolishand not have a democratic situation while he was living stupid idea, but it does offend me when you tell me in Ontario becausehis member was a Conservative that it is undemocraticof this government to dothat. member. He did not have a democratic situation It does offend me when you accuse my colleague, when he moved to Winnipeg, in Wolseley, because the minister, of exercising raw power. He is a at thattime it was represented by a Liberal member, purring little pussycat compared to what Saul but now that he has a New Democratic Party Cherniack did to the citizens of Winnipeg when he member everythingis fine, everythingis democratic. wiped out 14 municipal councils, mayors, reeves, Surely that is not the kind of simplistic approach to and over 114 or 150 councillorsand aldermen. democracy, as I think you and I both understand it, If yourproposition is, the closer people are totheir that you are presentingto us. elected representatives, then, sir, you should have been making the same presentation to this same * (2320) committee in 1973 when The Unicity Bill was Mr. Shapiro: It is not, and I said in my opening brought forward, because it was wipingout the kind comments I am not a member ofany political party. of local representation that you have been-and I I am not saying that the Liberals or the NDP or the thinkthat there Is some merit to it, I am not taking PC Party has not done things which were issue. But the issue that I am taking with you, sir, is advantageous for both theprovince and the city of the description of the action on the part of the Winnipeg. I am addressing this particular issue, minister and the part of this government as being and I am saying that the procedure by which your anything less than fully democraticin every and the governmentis going abouttrying to accomplish this fullest meaning of the word. Thankyou. objective is anti-democratic, and I say that, sir, Madam Chairman: Thank you for your because it is anti-democratic. presentation, Dr. Shapiro. Mr. Enns: let us deal with that democracy Mr. Shapiro: May I respond? I would like to say, questiononce andfor all. The liberal Party and the Mr. Enns, that I am a country boymyself. I workwith Conservative Party ran on thelast electionwith this ducks fora living. I would also like to say that had I as a major part of their platform, and they garnered been-in 1972 I had just come to Winnipeg and I in excess of 60 percent of the vote-aclear majority wish I was more aware at that time of the concept of all theresidents of Winnipeg. What can be more of Unicity, because I most certainly would have democratic than that, and the fulfillment of that spoken out againstthe consolidation. promise? Surely part of the cynicism that people rightfully have of politicians is when they say It seems to me that the city of Winnipeg is something to their electorate prior to election and encounteringnow thevery problems that the people then refuse to carry it out. back then said they would encounter when they gave up all their equipment, all of their I mean, I am a littlecountry boy from Woodlands. independence, all of their services to a central I raise cattle for a living, but I am troubled when government. Now, some individuals are asking for intelligent people-and I respect your capacity and their charters back, and I think that Is going to your understanding and your obvious interest in continue in the weeks ahead, and I suspect that community and public affairs-will say to us in a there may be more municipalities, that were formerly committee that a leader of a liberal Party, which part of Unicity, that are going to ask for those garnered some 27 percent of the vote-more than charters back. the New Democrats, by the way, in the city of I would like to conclude by saying that all of my Winnipeg, yes; and the Conservative Party that comments stand, evenIn light of your comments. garnered 37 percent or 38 percent of thevotes here in thecity of Winnipeg, for a combined total of some Mr. Enns: Madam Chairperson, I can accept that 60-65 percent, as high a majority as you can in an kind of a presentation and that argument being put July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 169

forward. It is an argument that, quite frankly, was I am a little bit of an experton thatbecause for 38 shared by a number of us In 1972, although certain years in the city of Winnipeg I have been takingpart members of the then opposition voted for The in governmentas a small outsider tiptoeing up and Unlcity Bill. As my memory recalls, the majority of tryingto get a footin the door. Ascitizen a member them voted against it. But that Is a legitimate of WIN and as a citizen member ofCHOICES, I am difference of opinionabout how we order our affairs very proud of the briefs presented by Shirley Lord, from time to time, and that is fair game. and I am very thrilled with the council presentation by Councillor Glen Murray. I suggest to you, as sincerely as I can, it is not fair game, however, to suggest that the action being The possible destruction of viable community undertaken by the minister and by this government committees is almost a sure goal. By reducing the as being anything than in the fullest light of the public number of councillors to a trivial number in each and in a very democraticway. Thank you. community committee, you are destroying the effectiveness of community committees, which Madam Chairman: Thank you, Dr. Shapiro, for were oneof the few salvaging principles in the NDP your presentation. Mr. Kenneth Emberley. Mr. government's great restructuring of Unicity that took Emberley, please proceed. place in the early 1970s. Many of us appeared at Mr. KennethEmbarley (Privata Citizen) : Madam hearings and fought with them just as hard as we Chairman, my name is Kenneth Emberley. I am not are fighting with you. Donot think you are the only thirsty now, thanks to an angel of mercy, and the one that gets that honour of being angered at and efficiency of this committee. I am grateful for that disputed with. But the community committee small mercy. structure was created. The resident advisory Chairman and members of council, the groups were created. City Council chose deliberately the old Gang of 19 to keep the reorganization of the City of Winnipeg Council, community committees under theircontr ol, and to without city councillor participation, without any keep the RAG groups absolutely powerless. We balancedreport on the reasonsfor doingso, without fought about that but we knew that is the way it is. any supportingresearch, and withoutan opportunity to question the research and reasons, is really not You really do not want citizen representation; you an acceptable process in a democracy. want citizens to come and talkat a meeting but you do not want citizen empowerment. Ifyou did, there The fact that these meetings, like this meeting would be a whole different structure ofgove rnment. tonight and the meeting on Bill 70-the public Is Many of us here today-1 heard someof the briefs excluded. There is room for 16 or25 and a half, or this morning. I have talked about citizen 39 people to sit In this room, but these should be empowerment, not very much, but citizen broadcast on cable television. empowerment is the last thing you want. I believe I do not know whether you heard Mr. Shapiro's the bill should be named the restructuring of City beautiful talk on democracy. He talked about Council to reassertthe ascendance of the Gang of educating the public. The thing most of all most of 19 and retain thecontrol that has existed for such a our governments do not want is for thepublic to be long periodof time, since 1919, I guess. educated on the issues. They want them to hear I would just like to read a brief little introduction their political campaign; they want them to hear a here, a wonderful comment on another great biased story, if a littlebit of a story gets in the media. parliamentarian. It is about a Mr. Mackenzie King The last thing they want is to have 20 or 30 or 40 or and a book called the Great Depression by Pierre 50 or 200people get up here and tell the truth about Burton, beginning on page 58, just a brief proposed legislation, or what people see as the paragraph. truth, and then to hear your questions and to hear answers and get educated. So when I look at • (2330) government hearings, city, provincial and federal, He hadconvinced himself duringa visit to Indiaa and they deliberately exclude the public by not few years before, the great Mackenzie King, in 1929 allowing cable television broadcasts of the whole of that in every way desirable Canada should be kept the hearings, I say it is an undemocratic process, for the white races and India for the black races, as deliberately limiting the public's participation. nature appears to have decreed. He was far more 170 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

at home with men like Senor Mussolini, then the You just have to lookat the amount of information darlingof the Canadian right wing, whom he visited thathas been broughtto us by these hearings today in Rome in the fall of 1928. to show the deliberate design of the bankruptcy of I have been enthused, he wrote, about the our province and of our city and of our federal government by deliberate policies chosen, and the manner in which this country has been brought most delightful one is the illustration of taxes, the together and is going ahead, the order of it all, the illustration of thetaxes not charged to corporations. fine discipline, the evident regard for authority and for M. Mussolini, himself. It filled him with I would like to mention this pointjust very briefly. admiration theway in which Mussolini had offered Great West Life raised a great fuss about having to clean up in Italy filled with communists. He their taxes raised after 18 years of constant tax cleared the streets of beggars, like Bill Norrie, and figure. You know we would have another $24 cleared the houses of the harlots, which men liked million in the City of Winnipeg budget if they had very much. raised their taxes just at the rate of inflation on the giant corporations. We have a darling little leaflet Mussollniwas a trulyremarkable man offor ce, of here that shows the Premier's seniorstaff received genius, fine purpose, a great patriot. This was the a 15 percent increase in wages last year; the grandson of one of Canada's great heroes. It just Treasury Board, the ministry of cutbacks, received gives you an Idea of the thoughts of people which an increase of 34 percent on their budget; $50 come out a little bit later. millionwas given away to corporations to help them I wonderhow many people notice the cityis going stand on their own feet independently since 1989; bankrupt, completely going bankrupt? The generous tax credits to Manitoba's large Province of Manitoba is going bankrupt. Mr. corporations of $7 million. Power Corporation, Mannesshas thesolution . He says we doubleour owner ofGreat WestLife , had profitsof $217 million, debt anddouble our interest payments by buying a paid no income taxes in 1988. Cadillac-Fairview, Hydro project. We will be betteroff and that kind of who was subsidized to build Portage Place to suck money outof Winnipeg, paid no taxes in 1987 on management they say theyare going to apply to the $37 million of profits andgot a credit of $12 million. City Council, make the City Council more efficient. It is all there, and you tell us you want to create I wouldnot trust them to run a bicycle factory with efficiency and fairness and bring democracy to the thatkind of managementability. city by cutting City Council? I want to refer to a brief presented to you by Local I have beenInvolved with community committees 500 of CUPE, where it mentionssome of thethings and I believe Mr. Ernst has been involved in thecity is shouldering. Onpage 6, theymention the community committee in the long olden days. At city shouldered much ofthe public's frustration and that time we had six members on our community its its anger because of inability to focus collective committee, and the other night we had a meeting attention on the Legislature and to get proper and thechairman said, you will notice that I pass the funding to run thecity. There are graphs in here on motions pretty quickly but there is oneother member the criminal neglect of the funding for the City of here tonightand the other one is away on holidays. Winnipegthat has occurred since 1980, something So when the other member speaks, I will just agree that canbe jointlyshared by the provincial,NDP and with him and we will pass the motions betweenthe the Conservative government, and I am sure the two of us. Liberals would have done as well if they had been I thinkthat is the kind of committee they plan to in power. That is on page 3-there is a very have in 12 community committees of six, but they importantgraph on the cutting of funding. are going to rearrange the city and have five The bar graph shows the dramatic increases in community committeesand that is just exactly what school taxes compared to city tax over the last fr ve the NDP did to us in the early 1970s and another years. It shows theeffect that these increases have governmentdid in thelate 1970s. They came to us, had and the cumulative increases and a large how do you want your city chopped up? Do you fraction of that is because of deliberate want 20,000 people or 22,000 people or 24,000 or underfunding of the schools by the provincial 26,000to be represented in a group? Where do you government. want the boundary for your city? We will put it July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 171

anywhereyou want. We will chop thecity up. It is old Gang of 19 would be back in power and there like taking twinbabies and telling the motherwe will would be a steady recruitment of new city give you divided up in three, and chopping off an councillors in to keep thegove rnment in power here arm or a leg or chopping it offat the neck. in the province foryears to come. Doyou not know anything aboutcities and people .. (2340) and communities? They are living organisms, a What are you really doing to our city? Do you group, a committee, the Wolseley area, east St. ever lookat cable television from Detroit? I have got James, Westwood, St. Vital, St. Boniface. The two excerpts here: Seymour Melman's Profits people in St. Boniface think they have a community Without Production. The story of the destruction of in downtown St. Boniface. The people in Windsor every single city in the United States because the Park think they have a community. You are just government putsall of theiremphasis and all of their going to chop them up and rearrange them. That has nothingto do with democracy. I begto differ. I budgeton the military. New YorkCity is collapsing. have been studying a little bit about governmentand My friends, Walter and Phyllis Robbins, who lived I have been involved in it a littlebit and Idid not know in Wolseley for many, many years, took a six-week anything until 1979 or 1980 when I began reading trip alldown theeast coast ofthe UnitedStates and alternative sources of news, dreadful socialist right across thesouthern states and back again. He literature, trade union literature, peace literature, was born in Washington, D.C. I will read you a brief literature by ex-capitalists, and by capitalists, all excerptfrom his letter. kinds of people. You find out what is really goingon Phyllis and I spent seven weeks and were back in thewor ld. on May 2, 1989. Travelling in our camper van We have a managed, controlled, imitation during February and March, we did a lot of democracy, managed-what? Ninety percent of sightseeingin thesouth andsouthwest. Duringthat the policies of government are chosen by the 1 00 trip, we were struck by the enormity of the social richest men in the country and the 12 richest problems in the country. The division between the families. That has nothing to do with democracy. haves and the have-nots has become worse and Do you think you are fooling us? All these people complicated by multiracial tensions, drugs, gang talk to you today-Mr.Shapiro talking a dream world warfare, downright anarchy in manyof the decaying of empoweringthe citizens. That is not what this is inner cities. It Is quite frightening. The place of my about. birth, Washington, D.C., has become the murder I went down and sat in Eldon Ross's committee capital of the nation. I worked with theexperimental and I listened to the people making presentations. federal anti-povertyagency in thecapacity ofdeputy There is the same rage against your government. It directorfor civil rights, said Walter. Is the same rage we had against the great-what Above, I am quoting from a letter I received last was his name? Howard Pawley-thesame rage by week from WalterRobbins now living nearMontreal . the working people against Howard Pawley, the same rage that is against Brian Mulroney. They In the 17 years Walter and his wife, Phyllis, a appointed theSpicer Commission to run around in schoolteacher, lived in Manitoba, they were circles and chitchat and they did not tell any of the exemplary citizens active in the affairs of our rage. The rage is because the people are province. powerless to have any democratic power. That is OnFebruary 15, '89, the Senate office building of thething that makes us so angry. I am not going to Washington, D.C., Sargent Shriver, the firstdirector be as long as Mr. Shapiro, Madam Chairman, I of the Federal Anti-Poverty Organization, promise you. Either with your wishes or my wishes, addressed 200 former members ofthe group during I will not be as long. their reunionwith this message: The rate ofpoverty I want to give you two very important things that in the U.S.A. in 1987 is higher thanat any time since are related to the policies you are trying to develop 1970. It has risen since steadily, and the rate is for the government. You are not addressing any of higher than that of any other modern industrial the real issues. You are addressing the issue of the nation. The U.S.A. divides its economic wealth needs for the political party in control to controland between rich and poor now more unfairlythan any manage the City CouncH to their advantage so the one of the 13 OECD countries, including Spain 172 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

which used to be theleader in unfairness,a 40-year carrying out this program thoughtfully, carefully military dictatorship. under the guidance of Tom d'Aquino and David The United States divides their Income between Somerville and the Chamberof Commerce are not rich and poor more unfairly and because they are very decent people. You were not hlre�because starvingtheir cities, every city is collapsing. You are you are hired, you are employees of the people of doing deliberately the same thing since 1980. It is Manitoba. You were hired not to destroy Manitoba documented in this brief from CUPE 500. You are and not to sell Manitoba to the Americans. You doing exactly the same thing to the city of Winnipeg, have done that under free trade. This Is all part of and you tell me that you are trying to helpthe city of the same program of taking our country apart. Do Winnipeg by restructuring City Council and you think we do not know what Is going on? rearranging it so there will be 40,000 people in each Maude Barlow talked to us for45 minutes In St. city councillor'sward and each city councillor would Norbert. She and a gang of people weredown in be twiceas importantas an MLA as far as population Montreal looking at the maquiladoras. It is exactly goes. what the gang of the Chamber of Commerce had Have you studied cities? The city has a greater their big meeting a year and a half ago February, need. They perform more vital functions in the exactly what they planned for the working people In country for the people than either other level of Winnipeg. They said the first thingthey haveto do government. To most people, the city and the City is cut the wages ofthe labouring classes. We have Council and the city government is far more to cut taxes on the rich executives. We have to cut important andfar closerthan any distant provincial taxes on corporations. That was the first three government or more distant federal government. goals of that gang, that new imitation committeethat What you are doing, you are depriving them ofthe has been set up. They hired a guy from funds that they needto lookafter the people in the Mississauga to run it. I sat in the Spicer city, and because of their own stupidity and the fact Commission hearing beside him. thatthey are dominated by thesame kind of people This legislation is not right. It is not decent. up until a few years ago that we have right here In There is nothing good about it. There is nothing this Legislature, they do not give a damn about democratic about It, and It Is not going to improve balancing their budget and taxing the corporations thingsin thecity ofWinnipeg. Itis deliberately done fairly and honestly. to destroy the democratic process. I beg of you to We have the extremeright-wing agenda of cutting heed Mr. Shapiro's brief. He made a far more taxes. It began with that extreme right winger, Intellectual brief than I can read. You heard the Pierre-whatwas his last name ?-some Montreal councillors get up here and speak and they spoke millionaire. Pierre Trudeau, that was it. In 1975, he with knowledge,wisdom and skill. I bet you there Is started the 6 and5 programto attackthe labouring one other onewaiting . Maybe he will turn out to be classesand cut thewages and thetrade union rights the same kind of a person. We never know. I beg of working people-a great right-wing Liberal. He of you -(interjection)- Oh, my God, like the Golden carried on and he carried on and they kept setting Boy standing on one foot. I just beg of you, do not taxes. The last three or four or five years on $70 pass this legislation as it is. You are not going to billion to $100 billion of profits in Canada, all the fool the people of Winnipeg. If this hearing had federal government got in net taxes was between been broadcast and the people of Winnipeg knew $1 million and $6 billion. One to $6 billion was all what all the knowledgeable people who came in thefederal government gotIn net income taxes from here with theirexquisit ely written briefs, lf they knew corporations, and you peopleare playing the same what they had said, you wouldnot have a chance of game provincially, and the City Council is playing passing this bill. You would not get elected the next the same game locally. election. You are destroying my country. You are making Madam Chairman: Thank you for your my federal government bankrupt. You are making presentation, Mr. Emberley. Councillor Shirley my provincial government bankrupt. You are Timm-Rudolph. Excuse me just one moment. I making my city government bankrupt. I think, and I betterjust check and ascertain that indeed the other bet you there were twoother people who were in this individuals listed prior to you are not in attendance. room today who think that the people who are Ms. Jean Miller-Usiskin, Councillor Greg Selinger. I July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 173

am sorry, I missed one-Mr. Frank Goldspink. that meeting and basicallywere thereto discussthe CouncillorShirley Timm-Rudolph. city's financial situation. Ms. Shirley Tlmm-Rudolph (Councillor, At that meeting, we passed around a Springfield Heights Ward, City of Winnipeg): questionnaire to the people who were In attendance, Madam Chairman and committee members, it is and there were a number of questions on it, one nice to seeyou again this evening. The hour is late dealing with the arena, one dealing with the budget and I will keep my comments as brief as possible. I process. There also happened to be one hope to repeat a lot of the things that were said specifically-and what had generated the question before the Eldon Ross commission. I made was the fact that lord Selkirk-West Kildonan office representation. I am sure that information is able to was being host of the Eldon Ross committee. In be provided to committee members in terms of the that questionnaire, we asked a question about briefs as well as, I guess, theverbal presentations, whether or not those In attendance supported the but I did want to point out acouple of things. reduction in City Council. Of those 103 who attended, 100 responded: 94 percent of those in I found it Interesting, firstoff, Mr. Enns' comments attendance at that meeting were In favour of a about democracy. While he raised one point in dramatic cut In the size of council and indicated 15 terms of one of the former NDP governmentstaki ng or less; 6 percent went for the status quo; zero municipalities and forming them Into one unicity percent for an increasein the size of council. Itwas government, of which I happen to be a second a very interesting exercise. cousin to the former Premier, I would also like to point outthat In 19n he commissioned theTaraska Just recently,as a result of some of thediscussion Committeeto prepare a report on another reduction centred around the issue of pedestrian crossing at to City Council. The recommendation from the the intersection of Portage and Main, I, In my ward, Taraska report was to reduce council to some had a phone polldone that basically wasconducted degree, but thepro vincial government decidedto go In the Morse Place area, the East Elmwooddistrict , even furtherand deeper than those cuts that were part of Transcona, which I represent, lakeside recommended by Taraska andwent from 51 to 30. Meadows, Kildonan Meadows and Mission Gardens area. Of the 1 00 people who were The history of that Is contained within the phoned-1 am just looking for my numbers Chemiack report,the review of TheCity ofWinnipeg here-they were also asked a further question on Act, so I thought that was rather interesting and the size of City Council, whether it should be something that also should be pointed out at this reducedor remain status quo. level and Included within the minutes of this meeting. So it Is not oncethat he did it but In fact Of those who were polled, 95 percent In my twice and even went further and deeper than his constituency supported a reduction In City Council. own commission had looked at at that particular We did not getinto thedetails of how expansivethat time. reductionshould be, but there was theanswer to the question. I want to point out to the committee, for I sincerely believe, In my own opinionand some those of you who may not be familiar with, for of the discussions I have had with my cousin, that I example, the East Elmwood area, this area in my thinkeven todayhe would agree that council must community happens to form part ofwhat used tobe be reduced. I wanted, I guess,basically just to raise the old city of Winnipeg, which is fairly old in age in a couple of pointswith you and maybe provide some terms of the housing stock, has a large portion of information that had not been provided at the senior citizens and, as well, people who are living in commission hearings. poverty. The reaction from that area was just the • (2350) same as it was in the real suburban part of my Back on March 7 of this year, when the Eldon constituency. Ross Committee was meeting In theWest Kildonan I think my area, being largelydifferent from that of area, the lord Selkirk-West Kildonan Community Councillor O'Shaughnessy, which is strictly a Committeeof fice, to be specific,I happened to have suburban area, has a combination residential inner been chairing a community residential meeting in city, what I would classify as inner city, because Councillor O'Shaughnessy's ward. At that time, those people surely believe they are inner city. there were approximately 103 people who attended They formpart of theold city of Winnipeg. They are 174 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

on Winnipeg Hydro, not Manitoba Hydro. Theyare the costs are going to be. I guess, if you want to part of Winnipeg School Division No. 1-is a spend money, you can go from here to China and different group of people, and they, too, share that do it, but I can tell you, members of council-and I same opinion. So itwas an interesting exercise. will use as an example, former Councillor Jorowski On the feeling that some expressed here this in Miles MacDonellwho spent no more than $1 ,000 eveningthat it is impossiblefor somebody,anybody, on an election and continued to get elected term for that matter, to represent 40,000 people. Well, after term. She did it with volunteers. She did it Madam Chairman, you will know, as somebody who because she did her community work; she did her formerly sat on City Council, that I, along with homework in her community; she worked for the another few members of City Council, represented people. some 42,000 people. Forsomebody to say that you So it is a questionof how much time you are going cannot effectively represent those people, I think it to put in to run. Are you going to go out and solicit is a complete fallacy. It is totally unquestionable the support of the citizens or are you going to just that somebodywould say just thatit is impossible to plaster them with brochures and signs? You take represent thosepeop le. your choice andH you want to make an effort, It does My constituency, at that time, as compared to not have to cost you the kind of money that some others within my own community district, were, as are saying today. As a matter of fact, I think I read an example, some approximately 18,000 that in one report there was something to the effect of ranged in a variety ofdifferent numbers in terms of $8,000 to $10,000 to run an election to represent population. So you would have one councillor 42,000. I did noteven spendprobably about $4,500 representing 18,000 and somebody like myself when I represented the 42,000, but I will tell you, I representing40,000 or 42,000. Quite frankly, 1 was wore out two pairs of shoes. I did not include that able to do it. I work at this job full time. I am not as an election expense. compensatedfull time for the hours that I put In, but I worked hard, and I am proud of how hard I I ran on that level. I told the citizens that I was worked, because I happened to have started running to represent that I would do so. I have lived campaigning in June and went through to October, up to thatcommitment. so if somebodywants to come here and say to you I at least believe that I have been a proactive that they cannotdo it, I thinkthat only exists in the councillor In establishing citizens' groups In my mindsof peoplewho have no optimism of what they community, as I did in the Harbour View South area, can accomplish andmaybe they just do nothave the a brand-new subdivision. The neighbours did not willpower. even know who lived next doorto them, never mind * {0000) who was across the street. We were able to establish what probably would normally take in I wanted to say that I am supportive of the excessof some maybe 1 0 years. We were able to four-year term in office, and I say that because of accomplish that, I will point out at this time,with the the experience I have had in representing 42,000. minister's help of recreation, who helped with a There is a lot ofwork to do ifyou want to be the kind community project which really put a group of of councillor whogoes outand does that kind ofwork residentstogether to work towardsa cause and, as for his or her community. You need time, because a result of that cause, have formulated a real it is a lot of work. There is a lot of legwork to do. community environment, a wholesome There are a lotof things that you have to do In terms environment, a holistic community of people who of discussion with your community, meetings to know who their neighbours are today. All of that attend, and in orderto do that, It wouldhelp. It would was done within less than six months as I help make you a better councillor. I know it would represented 40,000 or more people, I might point make ourcity ultimately a better placefor the people out. who live here. Madam Chairman, I quite frankly heard the I wanted to make some reference to one of the conversationsof some members of council saying, comments that was made earlier by a member of oh, well, we are not goingto be able to afford to run. council who spoke about a variance committee and I have seen some of the numbers that were said that the whole thing had gone out the window presented by other presenters todaywho saidwhat and a lot of unfair things had happened today. I, July 18, 1981 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 175

quite frankly, found some of the comments very I wantto say that in thecontext that some of those interesting from that member because today for a members who appear before you today, I think are very short time I stepped into that committee coming completely off the deep end, and that is my meeting. I will just giveyou an example of howsho rt own personal feeling. of a time I spent there. It was exactlyfour and a half As to some of the comments that were made minutes because I timed it; I was late for a meeting. earlier about why some members of councildid not In the four and a half minutes I was there, and I attend that special meeting of council. I, too, stopped by that meeting to drop a note off to a happen to be a member of Executive Policy colleague about an event that wastaking place this Committee who were scheduled to meet with a evening. That note, It was in a brown envelope, a whole host of delegations that particular morning, small, normal, letter-size envelope and sealed. people who took time from their work, all types of As I was waiting for that particular member to people,both from business, from Industry, workers, finish speaking so as not to interrupt them, a housewives, you name it. They come to those member of the media passed me a note and asked meetings to make representation and when they me If I would be so kind as to pass it to one of the take the time offwork, I thinkthey are owed thedue other members of the committee which contained, consideration to be heard at those meetings, and as I asked, a request for that member of councilto when members of council gooff on a tangent and phone that person in the media after they had a do theirown thing, then that is when those kindsof break. situations occur where they have bare quorum meetings. After the individual whom I wanted to pass the brown envelopeto had completed, I walked around I thinkthat wasra ther unfortunate,and Itwas not the table, which is not uncommonat any committee a boycott of members of Executive Policy meeting, and passed the two individuals, one, the Committee. It was becausewe were busy doing the note from the media and the other, my brown work of the committee thathad been scheduled for weeks and weeks and weeks in advance. envelope. The brown envelope was put in the person's pocket because they knew what it Anyway, I guess I wantedto finallysay that, as an contained. The other Individual, I understand, individual, I am prepared to work with whatever openedit up, thelittle note from themedia, and I had number of council Is ultimately decided and left the room . determined, because I believe thatI can work, I can Within approximately three and a half minutes of learn to work with what I am givento work with, and I will learnto adapt becau think that is where we that processtaking place, I understand I had raised se I have to come togetherto start to make the changes a kafuffle In the committee, andI guess I would go that are necessaryto make the government of the as far as to say there are somevery paranoid people city of Winnipeg start to work effectively and who are elected to office In that �mmittee. So efficiently in the city. It is a billion-dollar corporation much so they demanded that that individual open that is going nowhere fast that noteup to divulge what the contentsof that note were. I am a member of council. I am not a As a matterof fact, I would go as far as to say it developer. I never walked around the table. I think is like standing on the Titanic, and some very I know The City of Winnipeg Act, and I know where substantial changesreally do have to be made and I would place myself if I or any member was to do made quickly, and if some people are worriedabout something so silly as that. gangs,whatever gang it is right now-1 could go on and give you an example of a WIN gang tactic. I I just want to point out to you there are some very probably should, but I will not. I will be as kind as paranoid people on City Council and think that this not to. is some kind of plot to destroy our city, some kind of plot to destroy council and, quite frankly, I think it is An Honourable Member: Go ahead. absolute insanity, absolute paranoia. I have never Ms. nmm-Rudolph: An example? Okay, I will heard of anything so ridiculous in my life, that a give you an example. For example, on a number of member of council would think that another member occasions, a former WIN member councillor, and I of council was passing notes and letters from will name that individual, Christine McKee, was developer�bsolutelyunbelievable. going to beout of town ona couple of occasions on 176 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

holidays and therewere a number of decisions that Mr. AI Golden (Councillor, Glenlawn Ward, City were to be before council, for which she would not of Winnipeg): Madam Chairman, I would ask you have been present, and because they had the to please allow me the leeway to enter into the numbers, they were able to defer those decisionsto record a very brief response to a manner in which dates and times when she would be back. That Councillor Murray misled this committeeearlier this same courtesy was not extended to members of evening. council for this upcoming council meeting on July It was an attempton his part, in my opinion, on 31 , who,I understand, will also be away on holidays. character assassination of myselfand others on City They do not happen to be members of the WIN Council. The fact of the matter is this morning the group, and theWIN group was not prepared to stand hearing that he referred to was dealing with the down an Issue, a very important issue in the city, matter, not of uses of la�was dealing with the and an issue before City Council, and extend that matter of the bulk and size of a particular building same courtesy tothose individuals who will be away that would be built and the amount of parking that as a result of their vacations. would be required for it. There was no matter I am sayingthat they are exercising muscle, they dealing with uses of land today, and the community have the right to doso, but so doesany other group. committee and the resident advisory committee in I think you can cast stones all you want, wherever their votewere unanimous in supporting the use of they be. The Winnipeg School Division No. 1 has the land in question, and there was no matter of use of land handled at City Council this morning, and he recently been anointed the NDP gang dealingwith misledthe committee when he read off allthe uses the issue of Argyle School. I guess that, when that were approved. But I will be dealing with that individuals do not like the decisions that are being in another format another time;I just wanted to enter made, you can line people up in whatever way you that into the record so this committee knew that in want and make points thatway. fact the information received was untrue, and I Quite frankly, I feel that if members ofcouncil are would appreciate thoseof you who have an interest going to conduct themselves in those kinds of in determining thetruth to enquire of City Council as fashion, be unfair to othermembers of council, it will to what was dealt with this morning. I thank you for not take longbefore thegeneral public feel themout. theopportu nity to enter thatinto the record. A number of those kinds of councillors were • (0010) defeated in the last election for the way they conducted themselves, and I think that it is the I think one of the things that this committee was electorate that will be watching. They are not able to see today is the value of community stupid; they know what they are doing; and they will committees, and I think that ours, which was ultimately make that final decision as they are represented here tonight by Glen Hewitt and Jim vested with the power to do so. Shapiro, displayed excellence. In many ways, this group in St. Boniface-St. Vital have been of I guess, aside from some other points that were invaluable assistance. They go to great lengths in not addressed in terms of the rationalization of city organizing the community and getting information boundaries, which I wish would have been for us, doing various things such as polling and addressed, within the context of some of the door-to-door gathering information and assisting at amendments that are being dealtwith and also with special meetings and town hall meetings and all respect to the review of the school divisions and sorts of things, and I do not think we would be an school trustees. I think they are a couple ofissues effective elected representation if it was not for the that need to be addressed in the city because they resident advisory groups. are impacting communities and the citizens of the I hear bad things about resident advisory groups city, and I would hope, at least to the future, that this in other areas, and I suppose, just like councillors, government would start to look at some of those there are some good ones and there are some bad issues. Thank you. ones. We happen to have an excellent one, and it Madam Chairman: Thank you for your would be a real ioss to our community committee if presentation, Councillor Timm-Rudolph. And our we lost our resident advisory group. So I would final presenter this evening, I believe, is Councillor hope that you would leave the resident advisory AI Golden from Glenlawn Ward. group in the act. For those who have a bad one, July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 177

maybe next time theywill get a better one; but, for effect in practice, but we are headed in the right thosewho have a goodone, it Is a tool that we would direction. We have got a good piece of legislation hate to lose. with which to work now in assessment, and I believe we are very close to a situation where everyone Is I believe there are two kinds ofcity councillors at paying theirfair share, no more and no less. But at City Hall. There Is the city councillorwho believes the time when these people were paying less than that he was elected to represent the will of the their fair share, theywere getting tax bills which they people who elected him/her, and they come to City believed were fair. They believed theywere paying Hall to represent the view of the people whoelected their fair share; and, when they found outthey were them. Those people do not want to see council not, they got very mad at City Hall. Rather than reduced because they feel they are representing standing up and having this governmentadmit that enough people alreadyand they have gota full-time it was not City Hall's fault that they got those huge job just keeping in communicationwith them. increases, it was the provincial government's fault The other kind of city councillor is one who that those increases came into effect, because the believes that he/she was elected because of their legislation was bad, the assessments were bad. particularskills, their goodlooks, or whatever other People would have beenless mad at City Hall. But attributes they had to carry forward, and they were what was done Instead was the provincial elected to represent their view and their platform and governmentsaid: You are right. Those councillors carry out theirown mandate at City Hall. They lose are bad guys; they are inefficient;they are doing a touch and do not care to keep in touch with the bad job. We will reduce the size of City Council, community whoelected them, andthe result is that, make them full-time, so theycan do a betterjob. over a period of time, when the community whom This entire issueyou are dealing with here today they lost touch with finally get tired of them, they is as a result of the inequitable assessments. That throw them out. is why we are here today; that is why the public want I believe that the city Is best served by the former a change. The change they want was to correctthe kind of city councillor whois allowedthe opportunity inequities in the system, and they were misled to to be in good qualitytouch with his constituents; and, believe thatwould be broughtabout by the reduction if you lessen the size of City Council, you definitely of City Council. I do not expect anyone to admit lessen the communication between the city that; I sincerely believe that is the case. councillors and the peoplewho electedthem. I want to also Inform you here today that the I urge you notto reducethe size of City Council. official council policy-and I am not just talking There Is nothingto be benefitedby reducing the size about the meeting that was held Wednesday of City Council, except to justify statements that morning where the official council policy was were made to deflect criticism at the government reconfirmed-butthe officialcouncil policy when the over the taxreform uprising thathappened last year. vast majority of councillors were present, and I When the tax revolt started, people really thought believe the vote was something In the range of 21 they were Involved In a tax revolt because they were to 7, was that council not be reduced in size. This misinformed. They now realize that what theywere was a vote taken well over a year ago; there hasnot really involved in was an assessment revolt. The been another vote on thefloor of council to change assessment act is so inequitable, so poorlydra wn, that view; and the vote that was held a couple of and was so desperately in need ofchange because days ago upheld that view. it was based on reproduction costsof 1950levels of City Council's policy Is that councilshould notbe value that peoplewere assessedin newer homes at reduced in size, that it would be counterproductive about half of what people were assessed in older to reduce the size ofCity Council. The people who homes becausethe depreciation schedules did not took that vote on the floor of City Council were work, and the other facts as applied to the formula representing people who elected them,and I believe did not work. they were in touch with the views of their You have now got a piece of legislation that constituents andthe Interests of their constituents provides for the opportunity for equitable in large measure. However, I do believe that the assessment. It has not yet beenachieved because decision is cast in stone. There will be very little, if it takes a long time for thelegiSlation to actually take any, tinkering with the legislation. We are going to 178 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991

come in with 15 members whether we like it or not, time to deal with city-wide issues if I had twice as whether the citizens of Winnipeg are best served or many local issues to deal with. I certainlywould not not. Your view may be different, I am not have the time to be proactive on any issues. suggestingyour view is not legitimate. It is, and you As I said, thecitizens shall have less contact with are entitled to your view. I do not believe it will be their elected representatives. They shall have their best serving the citizens of Winnipeg. calls answered instead of by a city councillor, by a The subject of lengthening the term of council bureaucrat,because the councillorwould obviously from four to six years, perhaps-there is merit to the be too busy to take the calls. Of course, because idea of increasing the term of City Council in terms bureaucrats will now be required to answer a of saving costs of elections, in terms of protecting councillor's telephone calls, you are going to have people who are going to give up their careers to run to hire more bureaucrats. I want to quote Steve for public office. There is a danger involved as well, Juba here for you tonight. He is my political hero and I would hope that if you are going to increase and he has often said to me that bureaucracy is the the length of term of City Council, you would also enemy of democracy. H you are going to decrease put in a provision for recall. There has to be some the amount of political representation and Increase way for the citizens, in cases where they feel they the size of bureaucracy to offset the reduction in have made an error, do not have to wait until the political representation, you are movingaway from next election or wait too long to correct theirerror. I democracy and towards dictatorship. do not know what the formula might be, a certain * (0020) number of signatures, perhaps, on a petition from the ward, but if you are going to lengthen the term I believe thatI getmore calls than the average city of council,give thecitizens of Winnipeg a chance to councillor. In fact, I believe I get more calls than any throw the scoundrel out if they believe that the other city councillor on a city-wide basis. I can tell person they elected Is not representing their best you thatthe citizens of Winnipeg are notcalling me interest. telling me they want the size of City Council reduced. They arecalling me telling me they want Another concern that I have with the proposed the size of the city budget reduced. That Is what legislation is the powers that this legislationIs going they want, and reducing the size of the council is to give to the mayor. H the mayor has the power to going to increase the size of the city budget, no appoint executive policy committee, that would question about it. make the mayor far too powerful. With this power, the mayor could dictate his will to council. Themost The bureaucracy Is going to be running the city the citizens could hopefor in the mayor would be a and they do not have a goal of reducingthe budget. benevolent dictatorship. This is the opposite of They have a goal of building empires. We get told, having council elect the mayor. The citizens of as we were last week by Commissioner Frost, that Winnipeg have rejected the idea of council electing the idea of raising the pay of the highest paid civil the mayor. I would suggest that they would also employees 12 percent and lowering the pay of the reject the prospect of dictatorship, benevolent or entry positions 12 percent will be expense neutral. otherwise. Historically, the mayor of the City of I asked the question, what about the effect it will Winnipeg obtainshis power by popular support and have on the pension plan? Surely people are not by legislation. I am beggingyou , do not legislate collecting 70 percent of their best five years and if power to the mayor. Leave it in the hands of the their best five years are 12 percent higher, the cost people to give the mayor the power that he holds. of the pensions will be 12 percent higher. I gota oh, yeah. I personally represent 21 ,000 people. The majority of those who voted in the last election People do not tell me their opinion about reducing decided I had donea decentenough job to allow me the size of the City Council. They ask me. I share the honour ofcontinuing to represent them. I am a my opinionwith them and I have not had anyone tell full-time councillor who puts in over 80 hours a me they thought that I was wrong, of all the people week. I do not believe that I would do as good a job talking on this subject. Perhaps I overbeared and if I hadto representtwice asmany localissues and convinced them, but I can tell you, nobody ever got that is the bottom line. Worse, I would be forced to off the telephone with me telling me they thought become parochial because I would not have the council should be reduced. July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 179

If you needchanges at City Hall, let the people do have both donated our services-wewill both go on it at election time. I wouldsimply ask you, in closing, a diet. that I do not believe thatyou are being told to reduce Madam Chairman: Thank you for your the size of City Council. I believe you have had problems identified to you that the citizens of presentation. Winnipeg want addressed and I would ask you to This concludes public representation on Bill 68. address them through proper reform in the manner This committee will reconvene tomorrow, Friday. at that council operates. There are changes that can 1 :30 p.m. to consider Bills 35 and 68 clause by be made but the change of reducing the size of the clause. City Council is going to be negative. Committee rise. To end on a joke. if you want to cut the size ofCity Council, Councillor O'Shaughnessy and myself COMMmEE ROSE AT: 12:23a.m.