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Interview with Kathleen Cunningham Guler Author of The Anvil Stone

Reader Views is very happy to talk with Kathleen Cunningham Guler, award- winning author of the popular Macsen’s Treasure series. She has just finished her third book in the series, titled “The Anvil Stone.”

Juanita: Thank you for talking with us today Kathleen. Give us an idea of the storyline in “The Anvil Stone.”

Kathleen: Thanks Juanita! “The Anvil Stone” is set in fifth-century Britain, in the period leading to ’s rise to power. It intertwines the search for with the continuing need to unite Britain’s many factions and teach them to stand together against the increasing encroachment of Saxon settlement and revolt. Marcus, the main character, uses clever ruses and manipulation to keep the factions’ fragile unity from crumbling further. At the same time, Claerwen, his wife, discovers the factions are also looking for a (Excalibur) that is considered sacred to the high kings. The factions want to steal it to gain power. Because the future high king Arthur’s reign has been prophesied as one that will save Britain from the Saxons, Marcus and Claerwen believe the sword must be found and saved for him, otherwise he might never come and Britain will be lost.

Juanita: Give us a little insight into the lead characters of Marcus ap Iowerth (‘ap’ meaning ‘son of’) and his wife Claerwen. Who are they and what motivates them?

Kathleen: Marcus is a minor-ranking prince. He’s well educated for his time and street- smart when it comes to people, whether it’s a king or a farmer. He’s earthy, gutsy, a little sarcastic, a little crazy, intensely loyal to his ideals, terribly in love with his wife, and has a need to keep Britain united and free from foreign invasion. This need comes from experiences he’s had in dealing with Saxons since his childhood. One of those tragic experiences comes to light in “The Anvil Stone,” and partially answers why he became a spy.

Claerwen, Marcus’s wife, is driven by two things. One is her gift of visions, which I’ve dubbed “fire in the head” after a term for second sight found in poetry. The other is her bond to Marcus. She can’t stand being left alone at home to wait for him while he’s off doing his work and has found a knack for helping him. She doesn’t see herself as a spy, yet she’s actually quite good at it. She is generous of spirit, compassionate, and her “otherworldliness” is a balance to Marcus’s earthiness.

Juanita: This is the third book in the Mascen’s Treasure series. What is Macsen’s Treasure?

Kathleen: Macsen’s Treasure is a five-piece set of symbols sacred to the ancient high kings of Britain. It includes a torque, spearhead, sword, grail and crown. The treasure is purely fictional—it doesn’t appear in either historical documentation or Arthurian legend. However, crowns, , scepters and the like have been symbols of royalty in every age, place and culture, so it is very likely that high kings in the Arthurian period would have had them as well. I named the collection “Macsen’s Treasure” after , known as Macsen Wledig in Welsh, because he was a hero to the Welsh for having fought back an army of Picts and Scots in the fourth century. With the increasing unrest after his departure for Rome in 383, I’ve purported that the treasure was split up and hidden for safekeeping until times would hopefully improve. The sword becomes known as Excalibur and the grail as the . Except for the crown, one piece figures in each of the four books in the series.

Juanita: What is the “Anvil Stone” and how does it pertain to the story?

Kathleen: Well, you’ve heard of the “sword in the stone”? There has also been the “sword in the anvil” in various versions of the legend as well. Scholars have debated on which motif is truer to Arthur’s legacy, but like everything else in legend, no clear conclusion can be made. So, (I’m grinning here) I decided to give Claerwen, through her visions, the image of one of Britain’s ancient standing stones in the shape of an anvil as a clue to where she and Marcus might find Macsen’s sword (aka Excalibur).

Juanita: What is the time/date that this series takes place?

Kathleen: The series is set in the second half of the fifth century, in what is considered the “pre-Arthurian” period or what I prefer to call the “early Arthurian” period. The historical Arthur, if he existed, likely lived anywhere from around 470 into the 540’s, with his most prominent time being around 500. The entire Arthurian period is considered to be AD 400-600, taking in the full post-Roman era up to the Saxon conquest.

Juanita: There seems to be a large lack of factual information regarding this Arthurian era, and much of what is out there is questionable. How did you go about researching for “The Anvil Stone” and the Macsen’s series, and how much is true to what is generally understood as the Arthurian legend?

Kathleen: Oh, gosh, this era is so difficult to research. No true source documents survive, if there were any to start with. Celtic tradition had always been oral, not written, and some of the beliefs still in play at that time may have made writing down knowledge taboo. I’ve relied on archaeology to give me details about everyday life of fifth century people—what they wore, what they ate, how they lived, could they read, what languages they spoke, and so on. For calculating Arthur’s life and those of the folks around him, I’ve picked out the scanty kernels of information in the oldest accounts, which include the early Welsh poem “Y Gododdin,” ’s “The History of the Britons,” and the monk Gildas’s “de Excidio Britanniae” (The Ruin of Britain). The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and Bede’s “Ecclesiatical History of the English People” backup some of the information in the other three sources, but these all contain merely hints of Arthur—most don’t even mention his name. There is no proof whatsoever that he actually existed. However some scholars have made a good claim of his existence through intense analysis of these bits of information. Unfortunately it is still all conjecture, and after that, everything else is legend.

I’ve always gravitated towards the historical side of King Arthur rather than the fantasy/mythological side that developed in the later middle ages. Yet I didn’t want to exclude some of the most basic elements of the tales. I wanted to keep involved, so I based the Macsen’s Treasure series loosely, and I do mean loosely, on ’s “History of the Kings of Britain,” written in the 1130’s. This included the story of Arthur that catapulted the legend into widespread fame. Some of the narrative may be based on facts found in the earlier sources I’ve named, plus others that are unknown, but a lot of it is probably based on old tales handed down over several centuries.

Juanita: What are some of emotions and themes in “The Anvil Stone” that may be relatable to readers in their experience of life today?

Kathleen: One important emotion here is how shell-shocked Marcus becomes. In all the years he has been working as a spy he has not even realized it himself until the assassin called Handor says a particular phrase in the Saxon language. That sets off a reaction in Marcus that is much like a present-day soldier’s flashback to war. He starts to drink more heavily, and he puts himself in dangerous situations that make Claerwen believe he’s becoming suicidal, and she can’t figure out why or what to do about it.

I don’t want to get into current politics here too much, but it’s always struck me how society in the Middle East is still so tribal and medieval in its thinking, and in that regard, it gives a window into the tribal nature society had in the early middle ages. The constant bickering and violence among the Celtic kingdoms of Britain in the fifth century is hauntingly similar. Some things never change, only the location and the technology.

Juanita: This whole series revolving around Arthurian Legend, Celtic lore, and the dark ages of Britain is an enormous undertaking, yet you have managed to tell the story with such vivid description, historical accuracy and intriguing characters. What inspired you to write not only “The Anvil Stone” but the whole Macsen’s series?

Kathleen: A cumulative love of history, good storytelling and curiosity is the foundation of my inspiration. Then when Mary Stewart’s Merlin trilogy came out in the 1970’s, I became intrigued with the Arthurian period. I was also interested with the late middle ages and the Renaissance in Europe at the time. It wasn’t until the early 1980’s though that I considered writing book length fiction seriously. After mulling it over and making a few false starts, I knew I needed to pin down a time period and concentrate on it. So I asked myself, which era is the most intriguing? I kept coming back to the early Arthurian period. Of course I had to pick one of the hardest times to research, but something about the challenge of digging into such an obscure time drives my curiosity. I love putting together the puzzle. In the process I also realized I didn’t want to just retell the legend even though I love the ideal that the image of Arthur has become. That’s when I hit upon the characters of Marcus and Claerwen. They are in themselves an inspiration. I wanted to create characters who were in one way from a very ordinary life but are driven to rise to a challenge that profoundly impacts both their own lives as well as the world around them.

Juanita: There really is a widespread interest in Celtic heritage and lore. Why do you think this history, culture and myth are intriguing to so many people?

Kathleen: I believe the increasing popularity of genealogy has greatly increased interest in Celtic heritage because many, many people have discovered their roots are indeed in the Celtic nations. And because creative elements like music, writing, art, dance and so on have always been deeply embedded in Celtic culture, they help carry it forward. A lot of it is very beautiful and appealing. Some of it, like forms of spirituality that have been resurrected—druidism and types of wicca for example—are quite mysterious, almost primal, and it seems the more mysterious a thing is, the more curious about it people become.

Juanita: Kathleen, what are your Celtic roots?

Kathleen: My roots are Welsh and Scottish. The name Cunningham is derived from the Ayrshire district of the same name (still spelled with an “e” on the end) in lowland Scotland and indeed, some of my paternal ancestors emigrated from there. It is also understood that others in the family came from the lowlands as well and from North Wales.

Interestingly, in Arthurian times the names and language of both lowland Scotland and North Wales were in an old Celtic tongue (Brythonic or Brittonic) that was the precursor to the . Identical place-names exist in Ayrshire and North Wales. Cunningham, like most Scottish lowland names, has since been Anglicized. Strangely, or maybe it’s not so strange, after I had firmly established the homelands of my main characters as being in what is now North Wales and lowland Scotland, I discovered that those two regions were the same places from where my ancestors came…

Juanita: That is very interesting, and I would imagine that there is a significant meaning behind the coincidence. Do you feel an affinity to the characters of “The Anvil Stone?” Could there be some of you entwined into the main characters?

Kathleen: I would like to think there is a link between my ancestry and having the sense to place the characters from those homelands, and I do have a strong affinity towards both the characters and the places. A good friend of mine thinks this may come from memories from a past life, if such things are possible, and I know of a number of other historical fiction writers who feel inexplicably drawn to the eras they write about. Interestingly, I started to develop the story of the series’ first book after I’d had a very clear dream in which Marcus had a role. I wish I had Claerwen’s guts.

Juanita: How did you weave into the story the fascinating spirituality of Celtic Mysticism that was so prevalent during those times? Kathleen: I’ve spent a lot of time studying as much as I could about druidism, in the historical sense rather than the neo-paganism that exists now. Of course, this is another area that is difficult to assess. Many fiction writers appear to have tried to extrapolate fifth-century druidism through a combination of neo-pagan rituals and pre-historic rituals. Sometimes they come up with some rather bizarre ideas. Actually, the Romans pretty much annihilated Britain’s druids in the first century AD. The remains of that portion of society went “underground,” and by the Arthurian period—four hundred years later— they were far less knowledgeable in the ways of the old druids. Their schools had been destroyed, and the wealth of knowledge, which was forbidden to be written down, was lost. We can only guess at what that knowledge was, but it may have included the peoples’ history, genealogies, mythology, folklore, astronomy, belief systems and probably a good bit of science and mathematics. So sad that it’s gone.

Juanita: It truly is sad that much of this knowledge is lost. Kathleen, what do you hope readers take away after reading “The Anvil Stone” and the Macsen’s Treasure series?

Kathleen: First of all I hope readers do enjoy the story, and I also hope they find an understanding of the period and the people who lived then through the very different mindset of the time. I also hope there will be some who pick the book and find some inspiration to learn more history. History is not a series of names and dates. It is both the development and the clash of cultures and beliefs. Everything in history happened for a reason and to understand those reasons should help us guide today’s situations. Human nature was (and is) still human nature, regardless of the time or place. It makes me sad to see history poorly taught or ignored in schools—that apathy is making us slowly lose important knowledge.

Juanita: Who have been your inspirations and influences in your writing career?

Kathleen: There are so many! And they are cumulative. My favorite writing teacher, Mr. Thornton, during my last year in high school. Many writers of historical fiction, but especially Sharon Kay Penman for her fabulous way of pulling all the threads of a story together and making them absolutely clear. Mary Stewart and Morgan Llywelyn for their imagination. Historian Geoffrey Ashe, for his persistence in searching for the historical Arthur. I may not agree always with his theories, but his research is invaluable. Oh, and John-boy Walton was my hero back in the ’70’s—he understood the need to write! I could go on forever.

Juanita: When can readers expect the last book in the series, and can you give us a little synopsis on its content?

Kathleen: I wish I could say when the next book will be done. It took me four and a half years to complete “The Anvil Stone.” The good news is I have already started work on the last book, so, with luck, I’m hoping it will be out in a couple of years. This one will involve the grail, the final missing piece of Macsen’s Treasure. The story will hint at a possible explanation of how and why the quest for the holy grail got its start. And of course Marcus and Claerwen will continue their quest to see that Arthur comes into power. Can’t say much more right now, but I promise it will have a lot of twists and turns! Juanita: Well, I know that your readers will be very excited to hear this and will agree that the last book in the series will be well worth the wait. Please let your readers know how they may contact you or find out more about your endeavors.

Kathleen: News and contact information can be found on my website: http://kathleenguler.com. I try to keep it updated fairly often. Comments and questions are always welcome.

Juanita: Thank you for this great interview Kathleen. Reader Views is very happy to have had the chance to meet with you and find out about your fantastic book “The Anvil Stone.” Do you have any last thoughts for us today?

Kathleen: I truly appreciate the opportunity to talk with you and Reader Views, Juanita. It’s been a pleasure, and I hope your readers enjoy both the interview and the book.