Samuel Proctor Oral History Program College of Liberal Arts and Sciences
Program Director: Dr. Paul Ortiz Office Manager: Tamarra Jenkins 241 Pugh Hall Technology Coordinator: Deborah Hendrix PO Box 115215 Gainesville, FL 32611 352-392-7168 352-846-1983 Fax
The Samuel Proctor Oral History Program (SPOHP) was founded by Dr. Samuel Proctor at the University of Florida in 1967. Its original projects were collections centered around Florida history with the purpose of preserving eyewitness accounts of economic, social, political, religious and intellectual life in Florida and the South. In the 50+ years since its inception, SPOHP has collected over 7,500 interviews in its archives.
Transcribed interviews are available through SPOHP for use by research scholars, students, journalists, and other interested groups. Material is frequently used for theses, dissertations, articles, books, documentaries, museum displays, and a variety of other public uses. As standard oral history practice dictates, SPOHP recommends that researchers refer to both the transcript and audio of an interview when conducting their work. A selection of interviews are available online here through the UF Digital Collections and the UF Smathers Library system.
Oral history interview transcripts available on the UF Digital Collections may be in draft or final format. SPOHP transcribers create interview transcripts by listening to the original oral history interview recording and typing a verbatim document of it. The transcript is written with careful attention to reflect original grammar and word choice of each interviewee; subjective or editorial changes are not made to their speech. The draft transcript can also later undergo a later final edit to ensure accuracy in spelling and format. Interviewees can also provide their own spelling corrections. SPOHP transcribers refer to the Merriam- Webster’s dictionary, Chicago Manual of Style, and program-specific transcribing style guide, accessible at SPOHP’s website.
For more information about SPOHP, visit http://oral.history.ufl.edu or call the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program office at 352-392-7168.
-February 2018
The Foundation for The Gator Nation An Equal Opportunity Institution TMP-141B Interviewee: Susan "Sudy" McKnight Interviewer: Lara Alqasem, Mackenzie Goode Date of Interview: October 23, 2017
A: So, hi, I'm Lara Alqasem with the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program.
G: I'm Mackenzie Goode.
A: And today is October 23, 2017. We are today interviewing Miss Susan
McKnight, and she is going to talk to us about country stores and her life.
So, to start off, could you tell us when and where you were born?
M: Well, I was born in Pensacola.
A: Oh, wow.
[Laughter]
M: My dad was navy and he was down there training. So, I was born in a
navy hospital there in Pensacola.
A: Oh, wow. How long did you live there?
M: Not very long. We didn't live any place very long, two years at best. And
so, that's why we always came back. This was our real home, as my
brother said. Came back here summers and Christmases, any kind of
holidays that we could. So, I had a sense of security and stability. That's
what Mobjack represented to me.
A: Were your parents both from that area or . . . ?
M: No. What, Mobjack?
A: Well, from the Mobjack area, yes.
M: Oh, yeah. My mother was born and raised there. Of course, I have a
picture of her house and her. But she grew up and that's . . . the store is
what she would've remembered if she were here. She could describe a TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 2
whole lot more than I am. She was born and raised and graduated from
high school here, and then went off to William and Mary and graduated
from there.
A: Wow, good for her. Could you say your parents' names and when they
were born also, please?
M: Yes. My mother's name was Sally Bet Walker Lawson, and she was born
April 15, 1921. My dad's name was Dunbar Lawson, and he was born in
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in October 10, 1920 . . . Let's see, he
graduated from high school in New Jersey. His dad was DuPont, he was a
chemist there. So, he graduated and then went to the naval academy. And
that's how they met. Well, no, it's not. I'm gonna back up. That's not how
they met. But she did go up there and visit him.
A: At the naval academy?
M: Yes.
A: And what did she do? Did she have a career?
M: Well, she graduated with two majors, which was history and English. But,
because we moved around so much, her main career was home, kids,
taking care of them. She did sub a little bit in schools. We lived out on the
Aleutian Chain – I don't know if you know that area in Alaska – on an
island called Adak, and they need a sub, permanent sub. And that's what
she did, she subbed. She was the sweetest person. She took that money
and she set it aside. And then, when we came back home, she bought her
parents a heating system. TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 3
G: Oh, wow.
M: She was a sweet daughter. It was really needed. They couldn't afford it.
But she did that.
G: Wow, that's amazing.
M: An awesome person.
A: Yeah. What were some of the places that you lived growing up?
M: Well, we lived in all four corners of the United States, plus Alaska which,
at that time, was not a state. It was a territory. But we lived in Maine and
Florida, Texas, California, Washington State, Alaska, North Carolina . . . I
think that's all – no, Rhode Island, lived there.
A: Wow. Those are some great places.
M: It really was. I loved it. I loved that. But I also loved coming home.
A: Can you share some of the memories that you have coming home?
M: Oh, my gosh. Well, my great-grandfather, who started the store, he
became ill. So, we lived in Washington State. My mother knew that this
was not a good illness and it was going to cause his death. So, we got on
this puddle jumper of a plane and left Washington State and must have
landed in every state until we got to Richmond. And I'm not a good flyer.
I've never been a good flyer, I don't think. I always wanted to get out. Of
course, you don’t get out of a plane when it's up. We did land in
Richmond. We visited her grandfather, my great-grandfather. And I think I
had interaction with him maybe once or twice, not much. But the
interaction that I had, I must've been maybe three. He was sick in the TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 4
living room on the bed, and he pulled me aside his bed, and he said, "Do
you see that picture up there on my mantle? Whenever I feel alone or sad,
I look at that picture and it makes me glad. It makes me happy." What an
impact that made. You know, I didn't know him. But after that, I loved him.
Because he seemed to like me, and that was really important for a kid
that's moving around. He didn't understand it, but I did.
A: Could you tell us what the picture was on the mantle?
M: Oh, I wish I had brought it. I've got it. It's of me, and it's a little picture – my
mother took me to the photographer – and it's just a portrait. It's a five-by-
seven. I didn't even think to do that because that's a treasure of a memory
for me. It's really important for other people to know how you can make
such an impact on a small life, on a small child. He made a huge impact
on me. And it was only thirty minutes long. I was standing there for not
very long at all.
A: That's so beautiful. That's so sweet.
G: I know, I'm getting teary-eyed.
A: I know! Me, too.
[Laughter]
A: I was like, you can't cry. That's so sweet.
M: Well, my advice is don’t ever pass up a kid. Don't ever. The opportunity.
A: Well, now I'm all flustered. I had a set question right here. Could you tell
us a little bit about – you were mentioning before we started the interview TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 5
– what you did for fun sometimes around the store in the Mobjack area
with other kids? Could you talk a little bit about that?
M: Oh, my. I have a wealth . . .
A: Well, we want it. So, as much as you want to tell us.
M: Well, I wrote out something for me to help me remember. But if I just
walked into the store, the first thing that I remember – of course, they had
a sidewalk, which was unusual. I mean, the sidewalk was as big as the
store, and that was about it – the storefront. So, then, you walk through
these doors, and these doors were screen doors. I don’t think they ever
closed ‘em. But they were screen doors, and I suspect were given to the
store by the bread company. So, then, as you're walking through you
notice the windows, and they had huge windows that let the sun in. And
my grandmother used to put plants along the front and plants inside,
because there was a shelf. So, then, you walk in and the first thing you
notice is the cement floor. You can't see it here, the picture, but you can
see it over here. And, of course, the focal point for me, in this drawing that
I made, is the potbelly stove. And you know what happens around a
potbelly stove. And it was run by coal, he threw coal in there. And the pipe
went to the side of the wall over here, somewhere around here. Okay. So,
then, as you're walking in, on the left are counters. You know what an old
store looks like. So, you had counters that were made out of wood. Then,
on top of the counter, there was also a display case, and he displayed –
I'm trying to remember some of the things that he displayed on this side . . TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 6
. fishing lures. Oh gosh, you know, anything a guy would like. He had lures, he had fishing stuff. He wasn't a great organizer, aesthetically it was not . . . but it was perfect for the guys that came in. There was an office section in the back of here, and there was an old rolltop desk and an old safe. And I suspect the safe combination was written on the wall. It makes it easier. So, that's where he put his money. Then, underneath the counter here, I remember seeing an old slot machine. Years ago, that was legal, and then that became illegal. But he used to tease my mother and say that that's how he paid for her education, that slot machine. Whether it was true or not, I don't know. And then underneath the counter here was also rolls of . . . at the end of the month, I guess, or maybe the year, I'm not sure. But he rolled up his statements, everything that he . . . the tickets and the statement. So, they were all underneath this cabinet here and he told me, "Don't ever go in there." He was afraid I'd go in and ruin it or lose
‘em, and he needed ‘em. Why they were on the floor underneath the counter, I'll never know. But that's where they were. So, I didn't do that.
So, then, there was a section . . . let's see, as you got into the main section of the store, there were more counters. And, of course, they had counters along the walls, just like you would imagine. And then, you also had shelves over the counter, and he was in back of the counter. Now, there was no register. He had a drawer that he pulled out, and it's made out of wood. I mean, everything they had was made of wood. Where did that thing go? TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 7
A: What thing is it?
G: Right there.
M: Oh, okay. I mean, something like that my great-grandfather made. But he
would've made the drawer. And, you know, there were places to put the
nickels and the pennies. That was pretty much all they had. So, then, you .
. . let's see, I think I'll do this. So, this is the store. Then, you go down the
row and you have – on top of the wall, the shelves, you'll have cans of all
sorts of things, foodstuffs. And then, you have the grabber and you can
grab your can and bring it down with the grabber, and that was always
there. So, then, in the center of the store was an ice chest, and it was
cooled by ice. The iceman would come every day. So, he bought ice and
he put it in his chest, and in the chest he would have beef, he would have
all sorts of food products like beef and chicken. And so, he stored those in
his chest. And in the center of the store it was also a chopping block, and
it was just a huge tree that he cut. Over the years, it looked like that. And a
huge mallet, because you'd put your chicken down and you'd [makes
noise]. And then, beside that, you'd have a basket full of eggs. He had
chickens, so he had his own eggs. So, then, you follow in the back here
and you continue to have household supplies. Nails, you'd have nails
along here. Back here was also a door in the back of the store, and it led
to the yard in the back. And back there he had hogs. And he grew hogs
because he used the ham of the hog, the leg, made ham, cured, salt-
cured. And also, he ground sausage. So, he fed the hogs back there, they TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 8 were all fenced in back there. And once in a while, he'd ask me to feed the hogs, which what that required is you had your meal and then you put water in it and you stirred it. And what I was remembering was just the smell, the sensory, and the hearing of the hogs, and then the sight. But I loved it. It's not something I would like to do on a permanent basis. I don’t want to raise hogs, I know they're hard to raise. But I love the fact that he did it and he asked me to feed ‘em, and so I loved doing that. And then, along this side, of course, was household stuff. I can't remember really.
Fishing equipment, anchors. Whatever you can think of that's nautical, he would've had it. And he had shelves coming up the wall. And then, you come back to the stove, which was in the center in the wall here. Then, coming up here, you also had an area on this side that had a big mirror and it had a marble top of the counter, and you had ice cream that they made. And their specialty was chocolate ice cream. So, you had the dipper and it was in the water. I'm sure it wasn't very sanitary. [Laughter]
But nobody got sick, that I'm aware of. [Laughter] So, you had the ice cream section. And then, in front of the marble top counter, you also had, as you entered, you just go to the right, and there was this Coke machine.
It's not a machine, a Coke chest. And the chest, of course, had two tops.
You know, you lift up one or lift up the other. And it was run by ice. So, you had to put ice in it. And he had Cokes and he had all sorts of old pictures – old glass bottles. So, I don't remember any of these, I just picked it up because I knew they were old. But he would have 7 Ups and he would TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 9
have Cokes and Pepsi. They had a drink called a Brownie. It was just like
that, I mean, in a bottle. And orange soda. And that was all stored in this
Coke chest.
A: Just out of curiosity, what did the Brownie taste like? What was that?
M: Chocolate ice cream – or no, chocolate milk. Yeah, that's all it was. It was
called Brownie but it was really chocolate milk. And it was one of my
favorites, because at home we didn't get chocolate milk. One of the stories
about this chest was George Philpotts, he's the one that ran this business
. . . this oyster business. He ran the wharf. Everything around here, he
ran. But he was very frugal at times. And he would come in and he'd go
into the Coke chest and he'd get his Coke. And he would take – you know,
there was a little thing on the side that you open up. And he would sip a
couple of sips out of his Coke – I guess he didn't lose that top. Put the top
back on, put it back in the ice chest, and he paid for it and then left. Went
back to work. But all day long, he'd come back and he’d drink a little bit
more of that Coke. I thought that was kind of funny of him because nobody
else did that. The thing about one of the – if you're going to get into the
interior of the store – the thing I loved about it is that men would come and
they would congregate, when it was cold, around the potbelly stove. And
my grandfather had a sense of humor that would not quit. He could take
your story and he would change it up so much that you wouldn’t recognize
it. But it was funny once he finished with it. So, it had almost no
relationship to what you told him. But anyway, people liked to come and TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 10
visit with him because he was such a mess. He was a wonderful mess.
And they did a lot of stories in there. And they had chairs so you could sit
for a while and get warm. Because when you worked out on the water,
sometimes it's mighty cold. And you go out early in the morning. By noon,
I guess, you're pretty much finished. Now, out on the dock here, the
fishermen would come in and they would be bringing their fish. They used
gillnets and they'd put the gillnet out, I guess maybe at night, and then go
back in the morning early and pull it in, you're pulling out all these fish.
And these boats, they look like this. And so, they would just fill up their
boat with fish. They might have just a small . . . anyway, and so, what they
did is – I don't have a picture of this, which I wish I did – but they had a
shovel that was . . . I would call it a grain shovel. Do you know what a
grain shovel is?
A: I don't.
M: It's flat so that they can scoop the grain, like this. That's what they had,
they had this grain shovel. And on the dock they had a place where they
had a pulley and a basket and they would lower it down right into that
section right there. And he would fill up that bucket and then they'd hoist it
back up. And along in here they had a table and they would sort it. This is
a trout, this is a blue, this is a spot. Blow toads, they threw out. They eat
‘em today.
A: Oh, wow. I didn't know that.
M: They do. TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 11
G: I don't know that I'd eat it.
[Laughter]
M: Blow toads, they went out. And so, then, you had all this fish over here
floating around. I forgot my train of thought. That's what the fishermen –
what I remember about that. I'd just stand there and watch these guys,
and they were sorting fish. Really fast. You know, the time it took the
basket to go down for him to fill it, they were done. And then, back on to
the table and it would go down and he'd fill it up again. That was just fish.
Then, you had the crabbers. And I did that one summer. I decided that I
might could earn summer money by crabbing. And I had my own boat.
And this looks like it, right there. And so, I would go out real early in the
morning, and I had five crab pots. I got the bait, from my grandfather, of
course. He didn't charge me for anything. Gas . . . anyway, so I get my
scrub fish and I put ‘em in the crab pots and take it out and let ‘em soak
overnight, and then the next morning go out real early. You're armed with
your gloves and you start pulling that thing up. And there's a thing that you
open up, you open up and you shake ‘em and put ‘em into your basket.
And then, you close it up, re-stuff it with bait, and then throw it back over
again. Well, I did that for a good couple of months, and I didn't realize that
I was getting all these very, very big – they call ‘em jimmies – crabs. And I
thought I was pretty good. I was getting all these jimmies. And I went away
for the week and my brother took over my business. And when I came
back he said, "What do you do to get all those jimmies?" And I went, TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 12
"[Makes sound] I don't know, it just happens." Well, one day I was going
out early and I saw one of these big old boats, and he was around my
crab pot. Well, you know, that's not a good thing. And so, all I remember is
I turned on my motor really fast and I was heading towards this guy. And
then, he was backing off. And do you know what the sound of the engine
is? They have a huge engine in these boats, and it's going [makes sound],
he's backing off. So, I went over to my crab pot and I just pulled it up real
fast and I looked at it and it's like, gosh. I guess I didn't give him time to
take my crabs. Years later, I found out that poor man was putting crabs in
my crab pot. He wasn't taking anything, he was giving me these huge
crabs.
A: That's so funny. Did you know him?
M: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I knew him real well.
A: Oh, okay. So, he was doing it . . .?
M: Because he loved my grandfather, and, because he loved him, he loved
me.
G: That's so nice.
A: That's so sweet.
M: And I don't think he'd seen a girl do that.
A: I was gonna ask: were any other women crabbing?
M: No, no, no, no. And they still don't. There is one down our way that is
doing it. But, other than that, I don't know of anyone else. But, precious
man. TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 13
G: It's funny too that you tried to get up on him to get him to back away, the
whole time.
M: Yeah! I had that ten-horse going as fast as it could go.
A: And he wasn't doing the same for your brother either.
[Laughter]
M: He was older, my brother was older. And he was a boy. So, I think that's
probably why. He was just thrilled that a girl would be out there. He helped
me make a lot of money that summer. Let's see . . .
A: Well, I was just gonna ask – and you might not have any recollection of
this – but you mentioned that a lot of men would come and hang out
around the potbelly stove and tell stories. And I was just wondering if you
remembered any of those?
M: Oh, I wish I did. No. As a matter of fact, I told a friend at church, please
come and be with me, because he would have different memories. And I
wanted him to come and he could share his memories of the store. And he
said, "Well, maybe." But he did say, he reminded me back in the store –
back in the office – my grandfather had his guns. And I went, "Guns?" The
only thing I was interested in is the candy. I didn't know he had guns back
there. No. So, my recollections were different than this, and so I was really
wanting him to come.
A: Maybe another time, if he's willing.
M: Maybe.
A: Did you have any questions, Mackenzie? TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 14
G: I was gonna ask you: did he sell the guns? Did he repair guns?
M: No, he didn't do anything, he just stored ‘em there. Up on top of the store
there was a second level – oh, wait a minute. Okay, so, as you entered
the store and you go through the counters, they have a room back here.
And the room had – that's where he processed or cured the ham. And so,
he hung the ham up from the ceiling with a rope. And for – I've forgotten
how long you . . .
A: Cure ham?
M: Yeah, I don't really remember. I even have his recipe.
A: Oh, wow. That's so cool.
M: How he did that, curing old Virginia hams.
A: Oh, that is so cool.
M: So, he would cure the hams. But he also did sausage, and the sausage
was spicy and it was awesome. You'd eat too much of this and that could
make you real sick.
A: Oh, I can imagine.
M: Not sick enough that you'll ever say I won't eat it again, but you can get
sick off of it.
A: And then where was his office?
M: Well, the office, it really just was an indention. I mean, people could look
and see him sitting at the rolltop desk. He was not a businessman. He was
more of an entertainer, and he loved it. Now, I think his dad was more of a
businessman. So, he built this business up and then his son took it over. TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 15
And he made a living, with the help of a one-armed bandit, which is the
slot machine. I wish I had that thing. And then, there was another door. In
this room here there was another door. He had a big grinder that he would
sharpen his tools, and he had the sharpest knives and the sharpest axes.
Oh, my gosh. But you could go out the back where the hogs were back
there, you didn't want to go there. Then, upstairs, there was a stairway
that went up to the second floor, and up there was meant for storage. But
my grandfather stored personal items, like my mother's wedding dress.
You know what that looked like being stored twenty years or whatever.
And old trunks and . . . I can't remember. Old uniforms. He had his old
uniform up there. It wasn't well preserved, but it was fun to see it.
G: Do you still have all of this?
M: No. What happened was my grandmother died and my grandfather could
not live by himself. I guess his daughter decided that. And so, they closed
the store and then they put it on the market. Everything in it. Like, my
mother's high chair was in the second story. Because we were navy,
because we moved a lot, we just couldn't store things. And so, she was
minimalistic before it was popular. She really was. We didn't keep stuff.
A: Yeah, it's so difficult to keep things when you're moving every few years.
M: Well, there is a certain amount of stress that you get when you're trying to
organize things. If you've just got too many things to organize, that's a lot
of stress. And the opposite is true. I remember moving and you would
have two or three shipments, depending on where you were going at the TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 16
time. So, when we moved overseas, you would send . . . let's see, you
would send your main stuff. You would have a storage shipment, you'd
have a moving shipment, and then you would have your express. And
your express you kept until the last minute, that's why it's called express.
It's supposed to be expressed to your place, your new place. And I
realized you could live really happy with just your express shipment. You
didn't have to figure out storage, or organize.
A: Wow.
G: So, you lived overseas as a child?
M: Well, as an adult I did. Now, as a child I lived on an island.
G: Right, in Alaska.
M: Yes. As an adult, I married navy. And we lived four years in Spain, and we
lived on Guam, and we lived in Maine, Newport, Florida, California.
A: Could you talk a little bit more about the process of your great-grandfather
opening the store and then your grandfather taking it over from him?
M: Yes, I sure can. I went over to the clerk's office to look and see just . . .
well, what I uncovered was that the property, Mobjack, was owned
originally – actually – by my family. The White . . . it's called Whites Neck.
And then, they decided that this would just be called Mobjack and then
Whites Neck. Well, the Whites owned it originally. And someone told me
that they grew tomatoes, and I think that might be true in this area.
Whoever it was grew it. Well, Philpotts, George Philpotts' dad, his name
was Hezekiah. What was his mother thinking? [Laughter] So, Hezekiah TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 17
came to town and he decided that he wanted to purchase this property,
and he did. He and another guy named Parker, P.P. Parker. So, then, I
guess they started up this business here. And so, then, I think my great-
grandfather – who must've been a good businessman – I think he saw
possibilities, because there was a big business going here, and he knew
that he could tap into that business just by working – there were a lot of
workers. And there were a lot of stores. Back in those days, there was a
store on every corner, and then there was usually a post office inside the
store. One-stop shopping. So, he decided to open up a business, and he
started . . . he bought the property from Hezekiah and his wife and P.P.
Parker. And that was about the turn of the century. And, according to the
records, there was a structure there and I can't tell you anything about the
structure, because that's the first I heard of it. And there was another store
next door. Somehow, that burned in 1913, around that timeframe. And, of
course, fire was awful back in those days. And so, it took the store, my
great-grandfather's store, as well. He didn't have a whole lot of insurance,
though I gather he had some, which is kind of amazing. Anyway, there
was this article that was written and it was dated 1923. Do you want me to
read it?
A: Absolutely.
M: It says, "Nothing missed by home lovers. Sticking to business builds up
reputation, which has real value." Now, this guy is from Middlesex, which
is the county next to us. O.M. Walker. "Some of us may be inclined to TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 18 believe that those men of settled –" this is written in their language.
"Settled disposition do not get as much out of life as those who see the world, but there is a certain satisfaction in knowing that there are still many men who remain in one place and devote their energies to the home and business and help build up the real backbone of the nation. Mr. O.M.
Walker of Mobjack is one of this steady type. Although he was born in
Princess Anne County, and also lived in Middlesex for a number of years, he has been at Mobjack for about twenty-five years, during which time he's built up a reputation which is as valuable as much wealth. That a man's reputation has an actual value is illustrated by the experience of Mr.
Walker. Seven years ago, his store burned along with the adjoining the store. He had a large stock of goods, a small amount of insurance, and he found the latter would scarcely pay for a new building. But, during the eighteen years of steady building which he has gone through, he has established a reputation for integrity that was now invaluable, for it enabled him to stock his new store and enter business on merely the fact that, in the past, he had worked hard and paid his bills. His new building is a larger one." It's this one here. "It has a concrete floor and plenty of room to display the large stock of groceries, hardwares, notions, rubber boots, shoes, etc., which he always carries. In addition to his store at the old stand, Mr. Walker also operates a store about a mile from Mobjack under the management of L. S. White. The lines carried are very similar in both stores. Mr. Walker has two sons, both married, one of whom lives near TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 19
home and the other is a steamship service of the Pocahontas Fuel
Company in Norfolk." So, it was just an article explaining his character.
A: Wow.
G: That's awesome.
M: And then, out on here, they mentioned the steamship. Out on here, at the
end of this pier, would be a steamship that would come in from Norfolk or
Baltimore and bring fresh meat or ice. In those days, that's how they got
the ice. Later on, they got it from the ice place in Mathews. It would also
enable you to ride the steam up to Baltimore or down to Norfolk or
whatever. It was easier than taking the roads, which look like . . . that look
like that.
A: Oh, wow.
M: Roads were not . . . sometimes they weren't passable. But that's the way
the roads used to look.
A: Oh, that's from 1923, [19]24.
G: So, this is your . . . like, where we are now.
M: Yes. Actually, that's Main Street. This is also Main Street.
G: Is the church – the visitor's center in one of these?
M: Yes, it is. Here's the visitor's center, that's at the end. And here's a better
picture.
G: Okay. So, this is looking northward.
M: Yeah. The last . . . here, Sibley's Store.
A: That's so cool that you have these pictures. TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 20
G: Main Street doesn't look too different now. It's a paved road. Some
construction.
M: Well, this building . . . let's see . . .
G: Is that one the one that's still there? There is a brick building at that
corner, right? Across from Richardson's?
M: Yeah, I'm trying to find that. I think it might be this . . . no, that's
Richardson's, I think.
G: Okay.
M: It's really hard to tell. I don't know, because it's hard to tell. I don’t know if I
have any –
G: It'd be easier if you were standing on Main Street kind of looking down.
M: So, this was the old bank that they made into the library.
A: Oh, okay. So, then, that's the visitor's center.
M: Yeah, that's the visitor's center.
A: So, then, Richardson's would be farther that way.
M: And then, the old church, you probably saw that. The Christian church.
And this is Richardson's. So, the old building would be right here. This is
also another restaurant called Southwind, I don't know if you all are going
out for lunch.
A: We are, I think so.
M: Oh, but Mondays it's closed.
A: Oh, that's so disappointing.
[Laughter] TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 21
M: Richardson's is closed.
A: Really?
M: Is today Monday?
A: Today is Monday.
M: Yes, it's closed, I think, too.
A: What a disappointment.
M: Yeah, because both of those are so good.
A: Oh, wow. Well, that's so cool. I was gonna ask: did your grandfather and
grandmother live near the store?
M: Yes.
A: Did they drive to the store or walk or . . .?
M: Well, back in those days you did little walking, and that was the curse of
growing older was that they didn't exercise. So, here is . . . okay. So, I
think I see the store back here. This is their house.
A: Oh, wow.
M: It was a kit house, a Sears and Roebuck kit house, and it came on the
steamship down to the pier here. And they unloaded it and then took it up
here to build it. No, no, here's the pier, right here. And this is where their
house is, right there. Then, there was one year that my dad was gone for
a year, and so my mother and I lived here in this house, and I went to
Mathews High School. Because, for the first time, people knew who my
people were.
A: That's so sweet. TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 22
G: Do you have a photo of you in high school?
M: I do, but I didn't bring it. I wish I had. I have it up – I should have thought of
that – at my boat.
A: Oh, you have a photo of you at your boat?
M: Yeah.
A: Oh, that would've been so cool.
G: Well, you can send it to us.
A: Yeah.
[Laughter]
M: Give me your phone number and I will, yeah.
A: Absolutely. Wow.
M: Now, there was also a little school. Back in those days, it was tough,
because they didn't have a whole lot of schools. But there's a little piece of
land right here, and they had a school. And so, that's my grandfather and
this is my grandfather's brother. They don't look alike.
G: They don't look alike at all.
A: I would never have guessed.
M: I don't know what happened there. But I know I see . . . is that him? No,
I'm sorry. It's him.
G: Still.
A: Still, not very similar looking.
M: Yeah. So, this was a one-room schoolhouse and it was located right here.
A: Wow. Did he tell you any stories from growing up around that area? TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 23
M: Yeah, he did. But what I remember most is that he memorized the Lady of
the Lake. Did you ever read that? Oh, my gosh. It's very symbolic. But he
memorized it, and he – we'd be riding the road and he would just spout
Lady of the Lake, and I'm thinking I have no connection – I don't know, at
that time, I had no connection. And then, when I went into English, that's
where it was like, "Ah, that's it!" That's what he was remembering.
A: That's so funny. That's so interesting. Can you tell us a little bit about –
you mentioned before like swimming under the boats and climbing on the
roofs – can you talk about that a little bit? Because that's just so
interesting.
M: Well, that's what you did here. You did a lot of swimming in the
summertime. At the time, there was a wonderful sandbar, but it was over
in here. You'd take your boat and put your anchor out and you'd swim
there at the sandbar. And then, you'd sink your feet and you would find a
clam. It's up to here. So, you dive in and get your clam, and then you go
looking for more. And then, the soft crabs, they'd be in the grasses. So,
there was a section – if you went up far enough – you could find the soft
crabs, too. Have you ever had a fried soft crab?
G: We had them on Saturday actually.
M: Did you really?
A: I didn't.
G: Lara didn't, I had one.
M: Well, it is kind of weird. TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 24
G: Yeah, it's like eating a whole little creature.
M: Yes, it is.
G: Like, it's like the whole thing being fried.
M: I’m not really as fond as it. I talk big [inaudible 47:53].
G: It's strange to look at it. If you closed your eyes and ate it maybe it'd be a
little bit different.
M: Yeah. If it's crunchy, it's good. Well, this was a picture of my grandfather.
And they called him Captain Stanley. And then, this is the only picture of
my great-grandfather that I have, and my mother.
A: That's such a cute photo.
G: Do you know the date of that photo? Probably [19]20s, right?
M: Yeah, [19]24.
G: Nice. That's cute. They look like they're having a fun time.
M: Well, it's in front of his house, and his house, great-grandfather's house.
Well, I may not have a picture of that. But it was across . . . there's a creek
that runs up here and it's called Whites Creek. Then, the house is right
here. And so, they would take the boat and scull the boat over here, get
out, and go to the store. [Laughter] It was easier than the car, coming all
the way around like this.
A: Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I can imagine.
M: For them, the great-grandparents. The grandparents were right here and
all they did was go down there. And now, Mobjack, it has a square. You
drive in a square. So, if you came down to Mobjack, the only way to go is TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 25
out. You can't go any further. Sometime you'll have to take a ride down
there.
A: I know. We'll have to convince Patrick.
M: This church right here, I'm really fond of this church, because it was built –
of course, it's in the Mobjack township. But it was built by boatbuilders,
and I wish I had brought pictures of it. Because the interior of the ceiling is
like the hull of a ship. It's all wood, and it comes like this, just the hull of a
ship. And then, of course, it has the windows. And we're redoing this soon
if you know of a structural engineer that wants to come and help us out.
[Laughter]
A: I'll keep my eyes out. Did you – sorry, go ahead.
M: Well, go ahead.
A: Well, I was just gonna ask: is there where you went to church when you
were staying . . . ?
M: When I was young and not so young. And then, when my husband retired
from the navy, we moved back, and that's where we decided to go.
A: Oh, that's so sweet. Do you remember any special events like Christmas
or Easter time?
M: Oh, yeah. My daughter was married there, my mother was married there.
My son and his bride, they were married there. And baptisms. My son-in-
law made a baptismal . . . I wish I had a picture of that, too. It's absolutely
stunning. He is a carpenter, so he made the church a baptismal . . .
baptismal. [Laughter] Sometimes my lips and teeth don't work real well. TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 26
G: It's not a word you use often.
M: Anyway, so those are the events that . . . yeah, Christmas Eve, we have
Christmas Eve service. It's just warm, it's just a neat place for me.
G: Did you have any special events at the store?
M: Oh, special events? No, I don't think we had.
G: Just congregating?
M: Yeah. I mean, a special event back in those days would've been watching
these men come in and interacting with my grandfather. And what I do
remember is they would get a Coke, and Coke – during that time that I
was there – was seven cents. So, they'd give him a dime and then he
would get three pennies out. And he would do that and it would just land
perfectly on the counter. That's all I remember. You know, you remember
sounds and smells. I was just enthralled that he could just lift those coins
and they wouldn't go rolling around. They would just land flat. And in the
summertime, of course, the floor – he had no air conditioning. You call it
an event. Today, if we had something like this, yeah, we could do events.
We could do wine tastings and it would be just so cool. But I don't own the
store. But go in and it would be cool and no air conditioning. He had a
black cat. You needed cats because you needed them for the . . .
A: The rats?
M: Yeah. So, anyway, I forgot what the cat's name was. I don't know if you
want this on tape or not.
A: No, absolutely. TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 27
M: PETA won't like it. Anyway, they took the black cat – because sometimes
male cats start to spray – and he was spraying the lettuce. Well, you can't
have your cat spraying your produce. So, my dad and a cousin and my
grandfather said, "Well, we've got to do something about this cat." So,
they took the cat and they stuck the cat in a rubber boot they had. And
then, they proceeded to operate on the cat. And so, once that was done . .
. I guess one of them had done cows. I mean, somebody knew something.
G: Yeah. I mean, cows, cats.
M: The cat was not real happy. So, they let the cat out of the rubber boot,
once things were done, and the cat went off and didn't come back for a
couple of days. And somebody who went in the store says, "How's your
cat?" And my grandfather said, "Well, he's out canceling…"
G: His dinner plans? His dates?
M: Yeah, yeah. His dates. There was another word that he used.
Engagements. He said, "Out canceling engagements." So, he did come
back. But he wasn't happy with my grandfather, I think.
[Laughter]
A: Wow.
G: A rubber boot. Who would've known? My mom's gonna enjoy that story.
M: It did the trick, it took care of the front paws.
A: Oh, my gosh.
[Laughter]
G: Poor cat. TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 28
M: Yes, poor cat. But he's gone, maybe they won't . . . I was not involved in
that.
A: I believe it. I believe it.
M: I wasn't even there when it happened.
A: Could you talk a little bit about – I know you mentioned that you helped out
with the hogs. Was there anything else that you did, or was it just mostly
taking care of the hogs and then hanging around?
M: Yeah, hanging around. I would sweep the store. Of course, that was
rewarded, and so I liked the reward. Because my mother was a purist and
sugar didn't pass your lips. So, when I went to my grandfather's store, of
course, the honey buns, they were a big deal. And the candy, there was a
big old jar and it had the side opening. And so, it had lots of candy in it.
So, I helped myself.
A: That must've been like a dream come true.
M: It was. It was an absolute wonderful thing. I think it's what heaven is gonna
be like.
[Laughter]
A: We can only hope.
M: I'm looking forward to it.
A: Would you mind also talking a little bit about – if you remember – you said
the store closed in the [19]60s? Could you talk a little bit about like how
that started to happen? TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 29
M: Well, yeah. My grandfather lived with us following my grandmother's
death. Of course, I was starting into college at that point, so I wasn't
around as much. But they just needed to sell the store and needed to sell
the house. So, the house and the store went together, and somebody
bought it as an investment . . . That's kind of the sad story of a beautiful
memory.
A: No, it does seem so beautiful and so nice.
M: Oh, it was.
A: And it wasn't for . . . because it seems like a lot of country stores around
here kind of closed because people stopped coming so much. But that
wasn't the case? That's very cool.
M: No. And the same fisherman that put crabs into my crab pot, years and
years ago . . . let's see. It would've been my grandfather, and just maybe
prior to the war, or maybe during the war. What the policy was, the truck
would come with the produce or with the cans or anything that he needed
that he ordered. They would give it to him and then as he sold it then he
could repay. Well, the companies decided that they had to be paid . . .
A: Up front.
M: Uh-huh, for the delivery. And he just didn’t have the money for it. And so .
. . these men that didn't make much money themselves, who had boats,
they gave him a no-interest loan so that he could start the process. And
then, he got ahead of it, he could sell the product and he then had more
money to buy the next shipment and still pay these guys back. TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 30
A: That is so sweet . . . Do you want to pause it for a second?
[Break in recording]
A: Okay, we're back. Let me just make sure that I have all of these ones. Oh
actually, I was going to ask you: do you remember any other country
stores in the area? Like, maybe in Mobjack or . . . ?
M: Yeah. In Mobjack there was one right here, right on the corner. So, it was
my grandfather's store here, there was a store here. There was a store on
every corner.
G: Is that the one that sold gas? Because your grandfather didn't sell gas,
right?
M: He did. He had an old, old gas pump. He had two pumps, one was real
old, one was not so old. But as you're coming down to Mobjack, and
there's a Y in the road, and this store was located right at the Y. It was the
old community store.
A: Wow. And they sold gas and all the same kind of things?
M: Yeah, everything.
A: Do you remember any kind of community events that would happen
there? Like, we heard stories about some people who would have like
barbershops on Fridays or – really, that's kind of the theme that I've been
hearing. Do you remember anything like that?
M: No. I don't think you'd want my grandfather to cut your hair.
[Laughter]
A: Not after I heard the cat story. TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 31
M: He did his cat but it wasn't bad. Oh, gee.
G: What were the demographics of the area like? How many people were
there? And were they all from . . . I mean, the Philpotts were probably not
originally from Whites Neck. So, do you have any idea where they were
from?
M: I think the Whites were the only ones that were original. Let's see, they
have a line – what Thornton Philpotts did, when he bought the property,
he was a real mover and a shaker. He laid out lots so that each lot was
pretty much the same size. I think my grandparents must've bought two
lots because here's one and here's one, and then here's one that didn't
belong to them. But there's houses all along here. I don't know how many
people are down there now.
G: Do you know how many would've been down there around 1960?
M: Like, a guess? I mean, as far as living full-time?
G: Uh-huh.
M: Oh, gosh. No.
G: Probably a pretty small number, right?
M: Yes, and I knew everybody. And I had been in everybody's house. Now,
as far as activity, there was a lot of people coming down there.
G: To work here or just to work the –
M: Well, really. Yeah, this part. Yeah, in the [19]60s the fishermen, crabbers,
oyster people. There was a lot of activity, a lot of people you didn't know. TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 32
A: Do you recall if there were White and African American residents who
were able to shop in this area as well? Or was it just –
M: Oh, yeah. It was almost like there was no difference, coming down to
Mobjack and going into the store. They had a close relationship. Now, I
don't remember any of ‘em living in Mobjack. They might've lived up the
road apiece.
G: And worked in Mobjack?
M: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't remember really them being fishermen. But they
did work, they did work.
G: And they were allowed to come into your grandfather's store?
M: Oh, sure.
[Laughter]
G: And the same with the one on the corner?
M: I don't know, because it closed before probably I was born.
G: Oh, okay. The building still stood though?
M: Yes. It's here in the picture but it's no longer up anymore.
G: Okay.
M: But it used to be the post office, that was Mobjack Post Office for years
and years. And then, when it closed, finally – the post office closed, then
they moved it down to the store, wherever it is. I don't remember. My
grandfather's store.
A: Oh, it became the post office? TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 33
M: Yeah. I mean, somebody bought in [19]66 and that's when I guess the
post office moved down there. After [19]66 I really wasn't around a whole
lot until I moved back.
G: And you live there now?
M: Yeah. Well, I live down the road apiece. I don't live in the township. My
grandparents’ house is for sale, if you want to buy it.
A: Oh, wow.
M: But it's got a basement.
A: That's so nice.
M: You don't do basements in Mobjack.
A: Really?
M: Oh, yeah.
A: Because they'll flood?
M: Water table.
G: Yeah.
M: Now, in 1920, which is when that was built, and other houses that were
built in 1920, they did basements.
G: I wonder why.
M: I don't know.
G: They are extremely close to the water on all sides.
A: Yeah.
M: Yeah. Not a good idea. Even when he lived there, they had some pump
running. TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 34
A: And what did you do after college and everything? What was your career?
M: Well, my career was my kids. Because once again, I'm moving around
from place to place. Spain, you know, where do you get a job in Spain? I
actually did volunteer work, which I really enjoyed that. But, as far as a
job, no, it just wouldn't work. Because my husband, he was in and out. He
was the type . . . the flyers. They would get a call at two in the morning
and they’d say, "It's a go, we're leaving in thirty minutes." So, how could I
have a job? . . . I didn't want one anyway. I love my kids. I love ‘em.
A: How many kids do you have?
M: Three.
A: And how old are they?
M: Gosh . . . one was born in [19]73, one was born in [19]75, and one was
born in [19]90.
G: Wow, that's a big gap.
M: Uh-huh.
A: And what are their names?
M: The first one is Emily Dunbar, the second one is Christopher George, and
the third one is Lee Morgan.
A: And what's your husband's name?
M: George.
A: Where's he from?
M: Arkansas.
A: Oh, wow. TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 35
G: Very random.
M: Yeah, very random. And we met in New Orleans.
G: Wow. What were you doing there? [Laughter] You went to school here,
right?
M: No, I didn't go to school there. My parents had orders to New Orleans.
And so, during the summer, I went down there and met him.
A: What was he doing there?
M: He was navy.
A: Oh, right.
G: He was already there? Okay.
A: Yeah, that makes sense.
G: Did your dad know him at all?
M: Yeah, he worked in the office. So, I came in to it knowing that he was a
good guy. Actually, my grandfather was also living with us down there.
And George would come, and when my mother would go away, George
would sort of babysit, you know, come and help him make dinner at night,
and just be with him. I mean, he was capable of doing anything but he just
was a people person and he would've died without people.
G: That's so sweet.
A: Yeah, that is really, really sweet. Wow.
M: So, at least I got a character reference from my parents. [Laughter]
Actually, when I first called and she told me, "You know, I want you to TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 36
meet this young sailor guy down here." It's like . . . [Laughter] but I was
wrong, she was right.
G: Mother always knows best.
M: Well, it's helpful.
A: Well, do you have any other questions, Mackenzie?
G: I guess we can wrap it up with some final memories maybe that you can
think of. Maybe the thing that stands out most when you think about the
store?
M: Oh, gosh. Most. I think just joy. My grandfather was a guy that loved being
with people, and he made joy wherever he went. Now, I will – if I can
regress as little bit, or digress – he opened six days a week, and the
seventh day he didn't open. Except some of the ladies would have
chicken, roast chicken for lunch, and so he would keep it in his freezer.
And he'd have to open the store on Sunday morning early so that they
could come down and get their chicken. Back in those days, I guess the
refrigerators were small, and so they preferred to have him keep it in his
refrigerator. And so, they'd come and get it. Well, now that he's down
there . . . guys found out that he was down there. And evidently,
underneath with the rolls of statements, he also had a bottle of bourbon.
So, then, they had what you call moose milk, I guess it was milk and
bourbon. It would curdle for sure. [Laughter] I know. Several of them
ended up alcoholics, I think, which is not good. But anyway, so that as TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 37
their Sunday morning opening that lasted maybe an hour. And then, he'd
go to church. [Laughter]
G: Gotta have your moose milk before church. That's funny.
A: Are there any other things that we haven't covered that you want to talk
about before we end this?
M: Oh, I wish I could think of something. But I loved the way you give a
question so that it does jog something, a memory or a story or whatever.
It's very helpful.
A: Thank you. All we want are your stories, so if that's we can do it, we'll do
it.
M: Well, I will have to say that my grandmother, she had to have help. So,
someone did come in and she started helping her. Her name was Dolores.
Dolores was a treasure, she was a sweet person. So, then, my
grandmother died, and they were very close at that point, Dolores and my
grandmother. And my mother started to . . . because she was there quite
often, too. So, my grandmother died and my mother then, when she
moved to New Orleans, she would send Dolores a ticket to fly down –
because she had never flown – and come and be with ‘em in New
Orleans. It was just such a unique place at the time. And eventually,
Dolores got cancer. So, my mother then took Dolores to her cancer
treatments for chemotherapy. But Dolores was African descent but she
was a treasure. I mean, the friendships that were bonded, because
Dolores was sweet. TMP-141B; McKnight; Page 38
G: That's so nice.
A: That's so sweet.
M: But that's my story.
A: Well, I'll end it here, unless you want to add anything else.
[Break in recording]
G: Hi, my name is Mackenzie Good. In the last interview, before we turned on
the recorder, when she was explaining some pictures to us, Susan
McKnight mentioned the origin story for the name Mobjack, her town that
she lived in growing up and that she lives in now. Before it was called
Mobjack it was called Whites Neck, and it was right next to Whites Creek.
Eventually, the area that's now Mobjack was brought by a man, Mr.
Philpotts. And sometime after Philpotts acquired the land, it became
Mobjack. And the story is that there was a man named Jack who was
wanted by the mob, and it became Mobjack. [Laughter]
[End of interview]
Transcribed by: Patrick Daglaris, March 14, 2018
Audit edited by: Jessica Taylor, May 29, 2018
Final edited by: Patrick Daglaris, May 29, 2018