STUDY GUIDE AND INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

TO ACCOMPANY VIDEO TAPE

“PSYCHOTHERAPY WITH THE EXPERTS”

FEATURING KENNETH V. HARDY

Jon Carlson Diane Kjos Governors State University University Park, IL FAMILY SYSTEMS THERAPY with Kenneth V. Hardy

Introduction This video is one in a series portraying the leading theories of psychotherapy and their application. This series presents the predominant theories and how they are practiced. Each video in the series features a leading practitioner and educator in the field of counseling or psychotherapy. The series is unique in that it features real clients with real problems. During the course of the series these clients bring up a number of issues with the therapists. A theory is a framework that helps us understand something or explains how something works. Just as there are many different people and personalities, there are different theories of understanding how people live and how change occurs, each with its own guidelines for understanding and procedures for operation. The primary differences between these theories are related to the relative importance each theory places on cognitive (thinking), behavioral (doing), and affective (feeling) factors. Each theory has devotees who think and act as the theory prescribes in order to help people change their lives. Certain theories explain certain phenomena better than others. The individual counselor or psychotherapist needs to develop his or her own approach to helping others with problems of an emotional, behavioral, or cognitive nature. Specific objectives in therapy include (1) removing, modifying, or retarding existing symptoms, (2) mediating disturbed patterns of behavior, and (3) promoting positive personality growth and development. The video begins with a brief discussion with the practitioner concerning the theory. We then move to the actual counseling session. After the session,

1 Hardy discusses the session with Jon Carlson, Diane Kjos, and an audience made up of counselors, graduate students, and counselor educators. Because the video series contains actual counseling interviews, professional integrity is required to protect the confidentiality of the clients who have courageously shared their personal lives with us.

Purpose The series is designed for pre-professional training in graduate and undergraduate classes in counseling theory. Students will learn about the theory and watch a leading practitioner work with a client in a “first session” interview. The series is also appropriate for workshops or individual study for the professional development of practicing counselors, social workers, clinical psychologists, or psychotherapists. Professionals will learn from the practitioner by gaining new ideas and insights which can be helpful in working with current or future clients.

How to Use the Video 1. As a stand alone activity for professional development or orientation to Family Systems Therapy. If you are using the video this way, it might be helpful to first read about Family Systems Therapy. See page 29 of this guide for a list of suggested readings. Or, you may wish to watch the video, read about the theory and then watch the video a second time. As you watch the video, note the questions included on the enclosed test. This will help you identify key points related to this theory. If you wish continuing education credit, complete the test and submit it as directed. 2. As an integral part of a course in counseling theory with the textbook, student study guide and instructor’s guide. The text by Jon Carlson and Diane

2 Kjos (1998), Introduction to Counseling and Psychotherapy, Needham Heights, MA: Allyn & Bacon with accompanying Study Guide to Counseling and Psychotherapy, and Instructor’s Guide to Introduction to Counseling and Psychotherapy, published by Allyn & Bacon of Needham Heights, Massachusetts, are coordinated with the video tapes and can assist in guiding the student through the learning process, including key concepts, application, and techniques. 3. As an adjunct in classes to demonstrate a practical application of Family Systems Therapy or to demonstrate specific interventions and techniques. Guidelines and suggested discussion topics will be included in Carlson and Kjos (1998), Instructor’s Guide to Introduction to Counseling and Psychotherapy, Needham Heights, MA: Allyn & Bacon. 4. As a basis for a series of class sections or a workshop for either professional development or counselor education. You may choose to use all or parts of the video to support specific teaching objectives. Suggestions for scheduling, discussion questions and other activities will be included in Carlson and Kjos (1998), Instructor’s Guide to Introduction to Counseling and Psychotherapy, Needham Heights, MA: Allyn & Bacon.

Family Systems Therapy with Kenneth V. Hardy Kenneth Hardy is an associate professor in the Marriage and Family Therapy Program at Syracuse University and is the director of the Marriage and Family Therapy Summer Institute at Syracuse. He received his doctorate in marriage and family therapy from Florida State University. He served as Deputy Director and Acting Executive Director of the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy and as a program director for mental health services. Hardy has had numerous publications in journals related to marital and family therapy and is a popular and well-respected presenter and speaker on issues

3 of family, multiculturalism and oppression. He is active in several professional associations including the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, the National Council on Family Relations and the American Family Therapy Academy.

Learning Objectives 1. Identify theoretical concepts which are descriptive of Family Systems Therapy. 2. Recognize specific interventions or techniques related to Family Systems Therapy. 3. Describe the range of applications of Family Systems Therapy.

Abstract of Family Systems Therapy Video This video is approximately 115 minutes long and is divided into three parts: Part I: Introduction of the theory with Jon Carlson, Diane Kjos, and Ken Hardy (25 min). Part II: An initial therapy session with Ken Hardy and Phil where Ken helps Phil explore his relationships (50 min). Part III: Discussion of the therapy session with Jon Carlson, Diane Kjos, Ken Hardy, and a panel of human service professionals and graduate students (40 min).

Transcript

TH 1 Well, thank you for coming in, and I assume that since you were willing to come in that you had some bug you’re wrestling with or concern that I’m sure you

4 want to talk about. I was just wondering if you would give me some sense of what that is.

CL 1 What that is today?

TH 2 Yes.

CL 2 I don’t know, uh, just my relationship with my wife has been fairly intense so to speak lately. She, I need to give a little background. We’re both in a 12 step program, and we went to a conference up in Madison, Wisconsin this past weekend, and she kind of got the awakening that she wasn’t really working a good program or, you know, living the steps or whatever you want to call it, and she, I picked her up from work, and she dropped me off here, and then she went on her way today, but like everything I was saying, no matter what it was, like was either too loud or too this or too that. It just wasn’t quite acceptable for her. Like anything I said it seemed like would you stop, you know, and it was like getting frustrated without saying too much back. So that was kind of something that was a little unnerving today.

TH 3 Now is this a part of your, you know, normal dynamic, or was today . . .

CL 3 Um, not to this extent, let me put it that way. Sometimes like after, she is a teacher, so she has a fairly intense day, and then if I’m loud or intense, she usually asks me to tone it down a little bit, and then you know, but today she was argumentative today and wanted to get in an argument, and I didn’t really want to so, that’s, I just was keeping quiet, and in the act of keeping quiet, I was like

5 missing questions and stuff like that. Like she would ask me some questions, and I wouldn’t answer and then that would irritate her. It seemed like it was a fairly irritable situation today, and I don’t know. She actually went to her therapist today after she dropped me off, so it was nice to be able to come here and share with somebody something.

TH 4 Do you ever go to her therapist with her?

CL 4 We used to. We used to live in Madison, and she went to therapy and then I started going to therapy while we were engaged, and then we did some couples’ therapy with both therapists, but this is a new therapist for her here, and I haven’t even met her yet.

TH 5 And how long have you been married?

CL 5 A little over a year and a half.

TH 6 And this bickering you sort of referred to it, how long has that been with the two of you?

CL 6 It has probably been with us longer than we’ve been married. I mean it built up, it’s a, we use it as a means of communication sometimes, and it doesn’t, I don’t know how healthy it is, but it usually doesn’t get out of hand, but today I felt like it was invading on some of my rights to speak or you know, I felt like it would have been better if I wasn’t in the car, but I needed to get here, so. You know, she goes through these phases and she’ll talk to whoever she needs to talk to, you know, whether it’s a friend, sponsor, therapist or whatever. And she knows what

6 she has to do. She just feels like she’s in a “bad spot” and has to start living spiritual concepts or you know just living a better type life so she can get out of, like she’s down here, and she wants to get back up to normal at least you know.

TH 7 And where are you in that continuum?

CL 7 Geez, I think I’m doing alright. I had a bunch of good news all at once, so I was kind of riding high. That doesn’t mean I was like spiritually centered, but I was doing fairly well I think, and you know, I could, some aspects I could improve.

TH 8 And what are those?

CL 8 Maybe, I’ve been, probably pick up on my meetings and also my prayer. I haven’t been, normally I was praying like in the morning and in the evening, and that helped out a lot for me, and I haven’t, I had just started getting back into the swing of that a little bit before the conference, and the conference was like kind of a good motivator for that, give you a little boost or whatever you want to call it.

Good starting off point again. Kind of drill in some reminders while being there, and you know, I’d like to think that I’m doing really well, but I know that I’m not.

I don’t know. Like school just started and everything is going real smooth and I’m keeping up on the readings and that’s real good for me. Sometimes I tend to get behind right away and then I catch up and then I fall way behind, and then I catch up at the end of the semester, but right now I’m up to par, so it feels real like I said with the job that I got with the hours with that, the money, I haven’t gotten paid

7 yet, but the wage is enough so that it will help out our income so I won’t have to be worried about that because last semester I was real worried about income, and I got kind of depressed and was out of work, and instead of doing homework while

I was home, I was just kind of like being a vegetable, and then I’d like, when my wife was going to be coming home from teaching, I’d like you know get moving in enough time so I wasn’t a slug when she got home. And now that’s changed, and I go kind of both ways sometimes. I’m best off when I’m doing something it seems.

If I have a schedule or a pattern to keep, that helps me, and with the job that I have now I work Monday, Wednesday and Friday and I go to school Tuesday and

Thursday and I have a class tonight also. But it’s you know so far so good. It seems like I’m starting off well, better than I have in the past.

TH 9 That’s great.

CL 9 That’s what I strive for, some improvements. So, I don’t know if I’m trying to bite off more than I can chew, but you know, it’s got to be better than last semester because last semester it was fairly hectic.

TH 10 It sounds like you had a lot of worries last semester.

CL 10 A lot of worries.

TH 11 Fortunately it’s been raining opportunities for your so far.

CL 11 Yes, I was able to get the classes that I want and need for the semester.

Financial aid was kind of a mess last semester because they got a new computer system and that gave me incentive to apply for some scholarships, but I found out I

8 had to go through the Financial Aid Office too, and I was supposed to find out like the end of October, and I just found out at the beginning of this month that I had applied for three and I got two of them, so that helps out a lot also with some of the financial worries. I don’t know how much I’m going to get yet, but still it’s, just kind of along with that the job, the school, and you know, the down part of my life right now is that my wife isn’t where she wants to be, and I can’t put her where she wants to be. I can’t really.

TH 12 And how does that affect you, and how does that affect the marriage that she’s not where she wants to be?

CL 12 Well, it, how does it affect me? Uhm, it makes me more like I’m walking on eggshells, you know. I can’t be I don’t want to say blunt, but I can’t be . . .

TH 13 Well, do it now. Be blunt now.

CL 13 Well, I can’t just be. I can’t like it seems that she’s, I get this way too where I’m hypersensitive to things, and it seems like she’s hypersensitive to that.

Like she commented on how I don’t compliment how she looks in the past, and then she goes through periods where I’m still pretty much doing the same level of complimenting which isn’t a daily basis. It may be a weekly or every other week type thing. And she’s fine with it, and now she’s kind of at a point where that’s like a big concern for her, because I haven’t said how much I appreciate her or how much I care for her or how attractive I think she looks. And sometimes it feels almost artificial when I do say it. You know, it doesn’t feel sincere.

9 TH 14 Because she doesn’t look that way or because you are saying, because you think she wants you to say it?

CL 14 Because I know she wants me to say it. And I think of these things a lot of time. I think of compliments and they never come out. Maybe like one in twenty or one in twenty-five will actually come out of my mouth, and I don’t know why that is. I guess I could work on some of that.

TH 15 What do you think? Why do you think that is?

CL 15 Why do I think that is? The first thing that popped into my mind is, it was a pretty sick thought, to just not say it, you know so she doesn’t hear it. Maybe if I don’t say it maybe I might try to keep a reserve going, you know, so this amount of not saying it is acceptable so if I just kind of go up to the amount that’s fine.

TH 16 Is it comfortable saying it?

CL 16 Sometimes. A couple of times lately with some clothes that she’s had they looked really, really nice, and I’ve told her, and it wasn’t hard to say, and it wasn’t insincere, and you know it was genuine, and it felt good to say. And sometimes like she’ll come home and she’ll put her comfy clothes on right away, and she’ll have her same color sweats on, and I think she’s cute when she’s like that, but I don’t.

TH 17 After you’ve seen it a while, it just loses its edge.

CL 17 Yeah, I guess.

TH 18 So, you’re saying that she’s struggling with where she is, and she has some

10 ideals about where she would ultimately like to be, and so I was wondering then, you talked a little about how that affects you because it has you feeling at times like you’re walking on eggshells, and then how does that then, when you’re walking on eggshells, what consequence does that have on the marriage? What impact does that have on the marriage?

CL 18 I feel like I need to take on more responsibilities whatever they may be, going to the store, going to the bank, cleaning the house, just so she wouldn’t have to do it because like that may set her off. You know, we do a real good job of splitting that up, you know, we have one car, and I’m a full time student, work part time. She goes to work full time, so we do a good job of juggling the car, you know, when we have time or whoever has the car, they are the people that go, and it works out quite well. But I have to run some errands tomorrow morning and I can’t go to the bank, and we need to go to the bank and I felt, I didn’t feel comfortable asking her if she’d go to the bank tomorrow after work.

TH 19 Why not?

CL 19 Because I thought it might upset her. I thought she was like going to go off again.

TH 20 And what happens when she goes off?

CL 20 It feels like she’s putting me down, you know. “Why couldn’t you do this?” or “Why can’t you go to the store?” or “Why can’t we talk about this later?” or . . .

TH 21 And what happens when she puts you down?

CL 21 I don’t like it. I think it’s, I don’t think I speak up too much because I think

11 it’s happened before in my life growing up at home and with peers.

TH 22 What happened?

CL 22 I can’t see it a whole lot but other people in my family have noticed it and pointed out to me that I wasn’t validated a whole lot or if I was it was in weird ways. Like I’m getting good grades in college, and you know, a compliment my mom might give me is “Oh, I knew you always had it in you.” And the way that feels to me is why weren’t you getting these kinds of grades all along, you know, that type of feeling.

TH 23 So you can’t even enjoy the compliment.

CL 23 Yeah, it sounds like it’s underhanded you know. It has undertones, and just trying real hard to fit in sometimes throughout my life and not really doing it at all.

TH 24 So growing up, was your mom often very critical of you, had lots of high expectations for you?

CL 24 Um, I would assume so, but I really don’t know. The best answer I could give you.

TH 25 Because you don’t know what she expected of you.

CL 25 I don’t know is. . . Well, just because she would like for me to do my best, and I think both my parents were supportive to an extent, but it just, even if I did do well or if I did my best, it just never really felt like I was fully appreciated.

TH 26 This was from both your parents?

CL 26 Yeah, I would say so.

TH 27 And who do you feel the most anger toward?

CL 27 Um, when I talk on the phone I get frustrated at my mom easier than I get

12 frustrated with my dad, I’d say.

TH 28 I was curious about your laugh when I asked that question.

CL 28 Aw geez, who knows. Because I probably didn’t want to think about it.

TH 31 Because?

CL 31 You know, there are some parts that are harder to go to than others, and I guess this is a part that I’ve avoided for a while I think, you know.

TH 32 It’s a painful place.

CL 32 Yeah, and for me it might be humor or sleep. I like to sleep to avoid things.

TH 33 Does that help?

CL 33 Does it help? Probably not, but it makes it go away just like drinking used to or whatever. So, it may be a defense mechanism or whatever you want to call it.

TH 34 But it sounds like, I don’t know, tell me if I’m wrong, as I’m sure you will, it’s painful to think about your relationship with them or maybe even her and some hurt and disappointment you feel around that relationship.

CL 34 Yeah, like, I don’t know. It’s easier for me to just like kind of grin and bear it, take it, than to say anything.

TH 35 Because.

CL 35 That’s how I was brought up. I don’t know. Grin and bear it or suck it up or whatever.

TH 36 Football attitude. And is that attitude rooted in a family tradition, a cultural tradition, or religious tradition?

CL 36 Probably not religious. You know, probably a little bit of both with the family and culture.

13 TH 37 And what’s the culture?

CL 37 Just the macho high school boy image I guess. That and, I don’t know.

Overcome obstacles I was taught that if you are going to do something do it 100% and just communicating. It’s easier for me to not communicate than to communicate, and I know that’s not really healthy, and I know it’s not, it really helps our marriage out when we go through tough times when we communicate about it and get to the other side.

TH 38 I was going to say that that rule might work if you are out on an island with coconuts and it would make marriage a little challenging.

CL 38 Yeah.

TH 39 So then who do you think you have the most, is your anger toward your mother greater than the anger toward your wife or vice versa?

CL 39 I probably am angrier at my mom than my wife. It’s just, I love her to death, and it’s just I guess my expectations of where our relationship would be at this point is not, it doesn’t really match up. I have in her eyes disappointed her in certain ways. I got kicked out of college. You know, she supported me through that, you know financially and a little bit emotionally. But I kind of felt like you know that I let the family down and that I let myself down too, but then I didn’t really have a wedding where people were invited. My wife and I got married by ourselves in Las Vegas and we told our parents about it, and my parents didn’t really take it too well. And I think a lot of that decision has a lot of hostility around it that’s not really been worked through.

TH 40 Now the decision to do it that way was an expression of hostility or it

14 created a lot of hostility?

CL 40 It created a lot of hostility. We got married like I said in Vegas and I didn’t invite my parents. I didn’t necessarily want them there. I didn’t really know how to say that to them.

TH 41 But I’m thinking that’s also an act of hostility.

CL 41 Could be, yeah. I don’t know. You know what I had made up in my mind was, and I don’t know if I still believe this, but it was a spiritual union between two people and we didn’t want to have it tainted by negative energy or by negative feelings or by people getting drunk or whatever. Because . . .

TH 42 Was there any of that in Las Vegas?

CL 42 Not where we were. You know, we were on our way to San Diego, and we stopped. We planned it, I mean, we stopped on the way and spent two or three days in Vegas and got married on one of them. Saw a couple of shows, had a good time. Then we went on to San Diego where the 65th anniversary of Alcoholics

Anonymous and world convention in San Diego, so that was kind of our honeymoon, and it was like a cool thing, you know. I still think it’s pretty cool.

TH 43 It sounds that way.

CL 43 And my dad just took it really hard, and I tried to talk to him about it quite a few times, and he said time will heal this. I still get along with my parents, but I think we kind of dance around this, you know, and I think, I don’t know how much more I can do on it to resolve it. I think it’s more in their court at this point.

TH 44 What have you done so far to resolve it?

CL 44 I tried to make some amends, you know, saying that you, I didn’t regret

15 getting married in Vegas, but I regretted the timing of my telling them and the, just the way, I had to hang up on my sister because she was really mad at me, and I thought my mom would be the hard one to deal with. She was defiant at first I guess you’d call it, but then she got more accepting of the fact, and then I didn’t really think my dad would react the way he did, but it hit him the hardest, his only son, youngest child, and I guess that meant a lot to him. But he can’t really communicate either at all. I do a lot better job than he does to pat my own back, but . . .

TH 45 I’m really impressed that you did go back and attempt to talk to him about it.

CL 45 I sat Beth and I, that’s my wife, after we got married, I asked my parents to get together and my sister and my brother-in-law and sat them down at the kitchen table and talked to them about it, and I told them I was scared to tell them and that’s why I didn’t tell them right away. I told them about a month before and I had known for about five months that this was what I wanted to do, and you know, I wasn’t open to any other suggestions. You know, they suggested having a small wedding some place, and you know, I had already made it up in my mind, and that’s what I did. So I was kind of closed minded after the fact. I just when I get in conflict I just want things to be better right away. And I think that’s why I may be quiet because I just don’t want to stir the pot anymore. I just want the old way. I don’t want to have any argumentative tones anymore. I just don’t like it.

TH 46 And it certainly makes perfect sense to me. I guess the thing I am wondering is that what happens. Not you, but when we don’t talk about it

16 sometimes I worry that rather than it going away it just becomes bigger than life, you know, it just takes on a life of its own, and sometimes it seems that it’s almost worth enduring the pain and agony instead of sitting in there and painstakingly going through it knowing that at some point you get to the end and it’s resolved or it’s in a better place.

CL 46 I’ve had scenarios like that where it’s been rewarding to do that, and I’ve procrastinated for a while and then gotten my back up against the wall and just had to do that. So I do know from some experience that is the best course of action somewhere up here, but then in here.

TH 47 In the region of the heart . . .

CL 47 Yeah when I feel it is here it’s not the same logical thing. I’m just like bye, you know.

TH 48 And I was wondering, because you were talking earlier about all these worries you had last semester, that seemed like you were just encumbered with worry from money to you name it. And it sounds like you have been alleviated of some of that. I was wondering just particularly in terms of where we started this conversation, is there any part of you that worries about your marriage?

CL 48 Yeah. I, you know, I want to be a good husband. I want to be better than a good husband. I want to be a good partner, and we’ve gone over some hurdles, you know. I had gotten to a point where I was lying about little things and I . . .

Caffeine, I get all wired up on caffeine so I try not to drink it, and I was like drinking caffeine and not telling my wife, and that felt like a big lie, and I was like trying to study at night for classes. This was two semesters ago, and then I’d like

17 get up and avoid things and watch TV and stay up late watching TV instead of hitting the books, you know. So I was just kind of in this cycle of, it was kind of getting out of control, and then with the work situation that I had, at that period I was working a lot and going to school a lot but not seeing a lot of my wife, and it blew up one night over dinner when I said I didn’t put milk int he cream of mushroom soup that the pork chops were being cooked in, and she knew I did, and at that point in time, you know she was just like “What else are you lying about?” And I pretty much came clean with everything, and in her mind she probably thought I was cheating on her too because if I had lied I might as tell lie.

So that took a long time to bridge back together that trust, and for some reason, about three weeks ago she thought I was lying again, and I was just like “Hon I’m not, I’m not lying.”

TH 49 And what is your understanding about why you lie?

CL 49 None, I have no understanding of it. You know, the things I lied about . . .

TH 50 Now is that a lie?

CL 50 I think it’s the truth. The things I lied about, I lied about the milk because I like it a little better with a little bit of milk in it, you know, and I was ashamed to have been drinking the caffeine so I, like, didn’t want to share that.

TH 51 Okay, let’s go back to the milk. Nothing special about that, it would just be fund to talk about. So the reason you put the milk in was because you like it in.

CL 51 But she doesn’t like it in.

TH 52 Then you liked because . . .

CL 52 So, I could have her think she was getting her way, and I could get mine.

18 TH 53 Okay. And was there some way to get to that place short of taking the action that you did?

CL 53 Um, separate pans, you know, put a couple of pork chops in a smaller pan with some cream of mushroom soup and some milk. I'm sure that would work quite well.

TH 54 Any ideas about why you didn't try that avenue?

CL 54 Didn't want to dirty another pan, because it was easier that way, because I thought I could get away with lying to her, maybe it was a test for future lies, I don't know.

TH 55 It just seems to me, Phil, that I mean, it seems to me like you are in a very difficult position because you know when you are around these people that you care about, who care about you, I'm not necessarily talking about being physically around them, but even emotionally connected, it doesn't seem to me as if you have had the opportunity or the experiences to be in those relationships, to have those connections, and feel the freedom to be who you are, that you're constantly compromising yourself to try to fit someone else's expectation as a way of sort of warding off disapproval, criticism, and than unfortunately, and very unfortunately, the only thing that happens is that tactic only eventually invites the very thing that you are trying to avoid, you know, so that eventually she finds out about the milk and then criticizes you for that, and then you feel a little beat up, and it seems like you have had a lot of that in your life where you've gotten these powerful strong messages about how you're just a royal screw up. And you seem very sensitive to that. As if you are constantly scanning your universe anticipating it and then

19 working very hard to avoid it. And I just think that that must be a very torturous way to live one's life. Is it?

CL 55 Um, it's, I'm sure it is. It's not a goal of mine, let me put it that way.

TH 56 No, I don't think it is. I think that's what makes it difficult because I can easily see yourself responding to these situations in this particular way even though it's not what you want, you know. Now, let me ask you what is probably going to be a difficult question. If you allowed yourself to feel more, what would you feel?

CL 56 At first probably anger, I'd say.

TH 57 And . . .

CL 57 And maybe once I got through that part of it, you know, I just might feel life I guess. That would be a good point to be at.

TH 58 But yet for some reason you hold onto the anger.

CL 58 Yeah. Yeah and I used to play physical sports and really get a kick out of a good hit or whatever, you know, that type of thing, in hockey and football, and you know, I don't know how healthy that was, but it was all in gamesmanship or whatever you want to call it, and . . .

TH 59 But it was a channel for you. I think we all need that.

CL 59 You know, I get the idea sometimes I shouldn't be angry and that you know, if I was dealing with life, you know, on a daily basis, that that anger might not build up.

TH 60 Well, I think that in some ways that's partially true that you attend to these things as they occurred. Let the air out of them, let the steam out of them and move on, but somewhere along the way you learned that that was not safe for you

20 to do that, and so I understand why you don't do that. I mean I think it's a two way street. I can only be honest and open with you if I somehow believe that, you know, you can hear what I have to say, that you won't reject me, you won't run away, you won't withdraw the relationship, and I won't be punished in some way.

And it sounds like you haven't been able to get those blanket guarantees in the relationships that you're in, so you know, instead of dealing honestly and congruently in a relationship, you walk on eggshells. You tip toe around, and I'm just a firm believer, and you may not believe this, but I just think that when we strip relationships of conflict, because I think it's part of the human condition for us to have differences, when we strip relationships of conflict, then we also minimize and diminish the degree of intimacy we can have in those relationships because if you are angry and not expressing it, then it's adding a certain level of artificiality and fakeness to your relationship.

CL 60 I agree.

TH 61 Now, so you said if you allowed yourself to feel, that you would probably at least at first feel anger. Now, I don't have any doubts that you will probably reject my request to do this, so just go ahead and prove me right, and we will get it out of the way. So, I'm wondering like could you express to me the anger that you would express if you would allow yourself to feel it? Like imagine for a moment I was your mom. What would you say if I were she and I could guarantee you,

“Son, I'm strong enough to hear what you have to say.”

CL 61 Um, things you say frustrate me.

TH 62 But that doesn't sound like anger to me.

21 CL 62 No, that doesn't sound like anger.

TH 63 That sounds like walking on eggshells.

CL 63 Right. I think I only got angry at fly mom once.

TH 64 Only got angry once, or only expressed it once?

CL 64 Expressed it.

TH 65 So what would you say to her? Because I see all this anger and rage roaming around in you like wild buffalos. Dying, screaming to get out.

CL 65 It might be nice to yell, “Would you just listen to me for a little bit?” And then kind of . . .

TH 66 Is that how you would say it?

CL 66 If I was, alright, if a situation where I got angry and went with it, hopefully,

I'd be able to do something like that, but if I were to just kind of like think about ways that I have been angry or that constantly anger me, I couldn't kind of bring those to the forefront and like act on them. No, I couldn't do that.

TH 67 Couldn't?

CL 67 No.

TH 68 Because it would hurt her, destroy her, she would destroy you?

CL 68 Because that's not my threshold of anger, you know, I don't talk about that type of stuff. I talk about it when it's up here, you know, or I yell or I go off, you know.

TH 69 So either you don't express it, or you have a rage like exploding.

CL 69 A rage, yes.

TH 70 So there is no middle ground?

22 CL 70 No.

TH 71 Then is that the way it plays itself out in your marriage with Beth as well?

CL 71 I can get angry, and we have come to a point where I can say, alright, she gets real scared if I get loud, because I can yell really loud, but I never have in front of her. When I get loud it intimidates her, and she gets scared, and she asks me, she’ll say “Stop yelling” at me even though I might not be yelling, I might be loud, for me, and you know, I worked on with some therapy saying that I’m angry.

I’ve worked on that.

TH 72 That’s great. And did that work out okay, when you’ve done it that way?

CL 73 Yes. So I guess I have dealt with it a little bit. It’s not something that’s normal. It has to be kind of like after a session like this where it’s kind of in the forefront where it’s fresh, you know, without practicing, it just kind of goes away.

TH 74 I mean, forget about the anger for a moment, but is Beth picking you up after this?

CL 74 No, I’m getting a ride home.

TH 75 So, you’ll see her at what time tonight?

CL 75 She’ll be sleeping by the time I get home.

TH 76 Okay, so when is the next time you will see her?

CL 76 Tomorrow morning when we wake up.

TH 77 Could you imagine yourself saying to her, “You know last night in the car I was really hurt by what happened between us.”

CL 77 Well, I might be able to do it. Yeah, I could do it.

TH 78 What is the most likely scenario, to not say anything?

23 CL 78 Yeah. Just to hope it went away. Just to hope that her mood and my feelings would just kind of go away.

TH 79 And do your feelings go away? Because I keep sensing that they don’t.

CL 79 No, they don’t. I don’t know why I keep thinking they will, but . . .

TH 80 It sounds to me like what happened in the car tonight, that you could have easily felt like you were one of her students being reprimanded and chastised for being too loud.

CL 80 And she knows she does that to me.

TH 81 Yeah, and so that while you wait for it to just dissipate, go away, what happens is it sits there and builds up, and then you have these rage explosions, not just the event and moment, and you already know this, it’s all of those things. You are throwing up all of those things, and I just, you know, you’re a pretty likable guy, and I just think that, you know, that it would work wonders for your marriage and your relationship with your parents if you could take like this experience that happened tonight, and make the conscious decision to not sit on this and not add it to all the other things that you are sitting holding in your gut, to try to get rid of it as soon as possible. And understand that it may well engender lots of anger from her. It may push her to this anger place. But see my experience has been that it’s okay for couples to have that kind of energy, because when there’s that kind of energy around, you know that also intensifies the energy as they come together, intimacy. But the two of you, my fear is that you will find increasing difficulty finding each other as these things continue to build up between the two of you. I don’t know if she has the same tendency to hold onto stuff and let it build up, but

24 it doesn’t matter whether she does or not. If that’s your tendency, at some point the two of you are going to have to deal with something that’s akin to a blocked artery, you know. Somehow it’s all clogged with gook and unresolved, you know that you’re not going to be able to find each other. You may wake up one morning and the two of you realize, you know, who is this person over here. That’s what gets lost when you lose the ability to sort of communicate with each other to take risks with each other. And granted you haven’t had the type of safety in your relationships that have afforded you that. But I think you deserve that. I think we all deserve that. And it would be great if you could take some little small piece of initiative to . . .

CL 81 To take responsibility for it.

TH 82 Yeah. You don’t have to do anything big, just start small. It seems like tonight would be a good example because the situation in the car didn’t get out of hand, and it was sort of approaching that, and if you could revisit tomorrow, it would be great. Now what is your sexual life like with your wife, I mean, what is your intimate relationship like?

CL 82 It’s not good. You know, when we have sex we both enjoy it, but you know, we don’t have sex as often as I’d like. She’s worked on some issues with that too, and you know, we had sex a lot more when we were dating than we have since we’ve been engaged or married.

TH 83 And is it her problem that the two of you don’t have sex as often as you would like? I mean is that problem somehow . . .

CL 83 She doesn’t want to, yeah. I mean, it’s like sometimes the thought of it will

25 turn her stomach or something. It’s not, I don’t understand exactly.

TH 84 But I’m wondering if that’s because of something inside of her or something inside of your relationship.

CL 84 Probably both.

TH 85 You know, because you know I think sometimes it’s hard for us men to appreciate that saying you know, “You like nice tonight sweetheart, you look stunning.” That that does more for the libido and sexual relationship than anything else. That these things are connected, and it sounded like what you were saying earlier. She is not feeling tremendously appreciated, not feeling noticed in the relationship, not feeling special. All those things that I won’t even say women, I think people like to feel that, and those things are connected to what happens or doesn’t happen in bed. So if there is any frigidity coming from her which you haven’t said or some lack of interest, it may be because other parts of the relationship aren’t sparking that. And so while it may be helpful for her to take a look at that, it might be even more effective for the two of you to take a look at the dynamics in the relationship and what’s supporting that, what’s feeding her.

Because sometimes I think you know men have a tendency to sort of push everything aside, conflict, war, you know, give me twelve minutes or whatever.

And I think that women tend to want more intimacy, and that’s really important.

So that’s what I’m concerned about and instead of computer like cognitive like emotion detached fashion is going to make it difficult to make those connections with her and probably with other people as well. Now have you had a chance to have any experiences of like even sitting down with your parents in therapy to sort

26 of . . .

CL 85 No.

TH 86 Is that something you would ever consider?

CL 86 I’d consider it, sure. My mom may consider it, but I highly doubt that my dad would ever consider it.

TH 86 Because he doesn’t believe in it, or because it’s too threatening for him?

CL 86 Probably too threatening for him. I mean, at one point during my parents’ marriage my parents went to a therapist once, and then my mom went back again without my dad because he wouldn’t go. So, they probably, I don’t know what they talked about.

TH 87 So it seems like there is some piece of him that you are trying, I mean, it sounds like the two of you might have some similar styles in some ways, but the difference is that you are sitting here tonight as you have on previous nights facing yours, wrestling with it, not always winning, but at least with some resolve to hang in there. And it seems like you are trying to rid your life of the real powerful role that denial plays in your life. And it sounds like your dad has some of that where, you know, a lot of denial, you know, and the perils of that, you know where it leads you, and so I admire you for trying to push beyond and break out of your legacy. And I mean that broadly speaking. All of the pieces of the legacy that you inherited and hope Beth appreciates that because it’s not wise to confuse success with effort. And maybe you haven’t been totally successful with it at this point, but one certainly has to appreciate the spirit of your effort, and I hope you won’t diminish that because you tend to have the tendency to kind of beat up on Phil a

27 little bit when your mom’s not there to criticize you, or your dad, or Beth. You do a pretty phenomenal job yourself. And give yourself a break. Now we’re about to run out of time, but I did want to follow up and ask you so would it be reasonable for me to assume that you at least make the effort to revisit this issue tomorrow with Beth about the car tonight? Now you’re being straight.

CL 87 Yeah.

TH 88 Not lying to yourself.

CL 88 No. No, that doesn’t sound hard to me at all. You know at this point, it may have a couple of years ago, but now it doesn’t sound hard at all.

TH 89 Because I think you know the more you work on, that’s the best time to do it when they are minute because I think what you would benefit from is having some success at doing this stuff. Because somewhere over the course of your life, I mean, you’ve had huge pieces of your confidence and self esteem ripped out of you, and it’s kind of hard to do anything that’s risky if you don’t have that, and if people around you are so quick to tell you what you are doing wrong, and not appreciate the effort that you are putting forth, coming here tonight is an effort.

You didn’t have to do this. So give it a whirl tomorrow morning.

CL 89 Okay.

TH 90 Okay?

CL 90 Okay, sounds like a deal.

TH 91 And Phil thanks. I appreciate your coming in to talk with me. Thanks.

Some pieces of this were things you’ve heard before, and maybe rather than what you haven’t done, dismissing it as repetition, that if you have two or three different

28 people saying the same thing, hmmm.

CL 91 Hmmm.

TH 92 There must be a pattern here. So I think it would be important to overcome this legacy your dad has handed to you of denial, you know. Alright?

CL 92 Thanks.

TH 93 Pleasure meeting you.

CL 93 Nice to meet you, too.

Treatment Plan for Phil

In future sessions, Dr. Hardy would move the case to Phil and Beth, then to Phil and Beth and Phil’s parents and then adding Beth’s parents. This would allow him to not only help Phil change, but to guide how the family system changes with Phil’s change. Because Phil’s issues are relational, his immediate relationships within his marriage and family of origin are key to any lasting change in Phil.

To Learn More About Family Systems Therapy

BOOKS

Carlson, J., Sperry, L., & Lewis, J. (1997) Family therapy: Ensuring treatment efficacy. Pacific Grove, CA: Brooks Cole.

Gurman, A.S. & Kniskern, D.P. (Eds.) (1991) Handbook of family therapy:

Volume II. New York: Brunner/Mazel.

29 Napier, A.Y. & Whitaker, C.A. (1978) The family crucible. New York: Harper &

Row.

McGolderick, M., Pearce, J, K. & Giordano, J. (1996) Ethnicity and family therapy (2nd Edition). New York: Guilford Press.

Nichols, H.P. & Schwartz, R.C. (1995). Family therapy: Concept and methods.

(3rd Edition). Boston: Allyn & Bacon.

Sherman, P. & Dinkmeyer, D. (Eds.) (1967) Systems of family therapy: An

Adlerian integration. New York: Brunner/Mazel.

Walsh, F. (1993) Normal family processes (2nd Edition) New York: Guilford.

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