Wednesday Volume 515 15 September 2010 No. 46

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 15 September 2010

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Ms Ritchie: I join the Secretary in State in condemning House of Commons attacks by dissident republicans on police personnel, property and community. I also join him in thanking Wednesday 15 September 2010 the shadow Secretary of State and the shadow Minister for their work in Northern Ireland over recent years. The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock I would like to move on in respect of terrorist violence in Northern Ireland to today’s findings of the Independent PRAYERS Monitoring Commission, which state that the Ulster Volunteer Force leadership sanctioned the murder of [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Bobby Moffett and that it could have stopped it if it had wanted. I am sure that the Secretary of State and all BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS Members would agree that that should be viewed very seriously. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it BENEVENTAN MISSAL undermines the assurances that we were given about Resolved, UVF decommissioning? Does he have no concerns that a decision not to re-categorise the UVF ceasefire will That an Humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, That she will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid send a signal that a planned killing is par for the course before this House a Return of the Report from the Right Honourable and represents an acceptable level of violence? Does he Sir David Hirst, Chairman of the Spoliation Advisory Panel, further agree that all this raises the question of when is dated 15 September 2010, in respect of a renewed claim by the a ceasefire a ceasefire? Metropolitan Chapter of Benevento for the return of the Beneventan Missal now in the possession of the British Library.—(Angela Watkinson.) Mr Speaker: Order. In future, questions must be shorter. This really will not do.

Oral Answers to Questions Mr Paterson: I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s question. This was a disgusting murder, carried out at just after 1 o’clock in the afternoon in front of good, ordinary NORTHERN IRELAND people going about their daily business, and it should be utterly condemned. The IMC report makes clear how The Secretary of State was asked— extremely serious the matter is, but it does not recommend that we consider specification. We in Westminster, those Paramilitary Organisations in Stormont, the police, those responsible for security in Northern Ireland and, above all, the community have to 1. Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): What bear down on this small number of people. I pay tribute recent assessment he has made of the threat to security to the very large number of people who turned out for from paramilitary organisations in Northern Ireland; the funeral, showing what the local community really and if he will make a statement. [14502] thinks.

3. David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): What recent David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): The Secretary assessment he has made of the level of dissident of State will be aware of a recent attack by dissident republican activity in Northern Ireland. [14504] republicans in my constituency, in which two young The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen children almost lost their lives. My understanding is Paterson): With permission, I would like to make a brief that six or seven people were arrested by the Police comment about the shadow Secretary of State for Northern Service of Northern Ireland, but all were released. Does Ireland, the right hon. Member for St Helens South and the right hon. Gentleman understand the frustration of Whiston (Mr Woodward), and his deputy the shadow my constituents at the fact that no one has been charged Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe for that and other offences, or is it the case that the and Sale East (Paul Goggins), as this might be their last PSNI no longer has the experienced detectives that it outing in their current positions. We should put on needs? record our gratitude for the work that they did when in office and for pulling off the great final stage of ensuring Mr Paterson: I am very sympathetic to the problems that policing and justice were devolved. We all owe that the hon. Gentleman has in his constituency. This them—and everyone in Northern Ireland owes them—a small number of people are wholly unrepresentative of debt. the community.What they are doing is utterly irresponsible The threat level in Northern Ireland remains at severe. and risks serious damage to lives—it has to be utterly The security forces continue to bear down on these condemned. We have to respect the operational terrorist groupings. So far this year, there have been independence of the police. As I cited earlier, arrests are 163 arrests and 56 persons charged with terrorist offences. up and charges are up this year. We have had 56 charges That compares with 106 arrests and 17 charges in the as against 17 last year, but it is not for me to interfere whole of 2009. The numbers involved are small in terms with the processes of the police or of justice. The hon. of the overall population, but not insignificant in some Gentleman has good contacts with the local Minister areas. Everyone must play their part in demonstrating and this is a devolved matter. If the local judicial system that these people have nothing to offer but suffering, can be accelerated, that is now in local hands; we should damage and the diversion of money that would be not tamper with the independence of either the police better spent elsewhere. or the judiciary. 865 Oral Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 866

Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): I also have achieved the Patten threshold. The renewal of the pay tribute to the work of the shadow Secretary of measure was due to last one more year, and we agreed State when he was in office, and I particularly thank the to that when we were in opposition. What we do next is shadow Minister of State for the very courteous way in up to us to discuss with the local Minister responsible which he treated me while I shadowed him for a number and with those who now run the police service, but I of years. hope that we have established enough momentum to Given the pressures of historical inquiries and given ensure that people throughout the community will see the inevitable budgetary pressures that all public sector joining the PSNI as a worthwhile career, and will be workers and departments are facing, is the right hon. attracted to it. Gentleman satisfied that the PSNI has adequate resources Effects of Recession to counter the threats we face—not only from dissident republicans, but from any terrorists in Northern Ireland? 2. Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): What Mr Paterson: I am grateful for the comments of the recent discussions he has had with Ministers in the Chairman of the Select Committee. We will stand by Northern Ireland Executive on the effects of the Northern Ireland, and we will do what is right. As for recession on the Northern Ireland economy. [14503] the issue of police numbers, we know that there could always be more—there is not a chief constable in the The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo United Kingdom who would not like more—but I am Swire): With your indulgence, Mr Speaker, I wish to in regular contact with the local Justice Minister, the add my thanks to the shadow Secretary of State and the Chief Constable and those who are bearing down on shadow Minister for the assistance that they have given dissidents, and we will ensure that we do the right thing since we took office. by Northern Ireland. In Belfast last month, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I met my hon. Friend the Exchequer Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): I echo the words Secretary and the Northern Ireland Ministers for Finance of thanks to the former Secretary of State and his and Personnel and for Enterprise, Trade and Investment. former security Minister. We had several bruising We regularly meet Northern Ireland ministerial colleagues encounters—some good and others not so good, but to discuss economic matters and how we can best work very enjoyable none the less. in partnership to stimulate economic growth and encourage inward investment in Northern Ireland. Let me turn to the dissident threat. Can the Secretary of State give us a progress report on the automatic Christopher Pincher: The economy in Northern Ireland number plate recognition system that his security Minister remains delicate. Unemployment rose between March announced in the House not long ago? Has it been and May. Will my hon. Friend do all that he can to introduced, and what progress is being made in terms of ensure that politicians and parties across the spectrum countering and surveillance activities relating to dissident in Northern Ireland do not play politics when making republicans? economic decisions?

Mr Paterson: At the last Question Time, we announced Mr Swire: My hon. Friend will not be surprised to that we had approved the final tranche—the £12.9 million hear that I entirely agree with those sentiments. I am that was required for the new technology, which I pleased to say that these are matters for the Executive. expect to have a real impact in bearing down on the However, I understand that, in his capacity as Minister small number of dangerous people. Its implementation for Finance and Personnel, the hon. Member for East is in the hands of the local Minister and the Chief Antrim (Sammy Wilson), who is present—at least, he Constable. I shall be meeting them in the forthcoming certainly was earlier—will meet my right hon. Friends days and will ask how they are progressing, but at the the Secretary of State and the Chief Secretary to the time of my last meeting with them, they were well on Treasury later today, along with representatives of the the way to introducing the technology. devolved Administrations in Scotland and Wales, to discuss financial matters including the forthcoming spending Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): I review. am grateful to the Secretary of State and, indeed, other It is, perhaps, worth my adding that I echo the views Members who have made generous remarks this morning. of the hon. Member for East Antrim, who has said: I wish the Secretary of State and his deputy every success in their responsibilities. “In some quarters, there appears to be an unwillingness to address the serious financial questions that are being posed. Let Dealing with threats to security in Northern Ireland us be clear: we cannot dodge difficult decisions in formulating a requires full public confidence in a police service that is new Budget. Delaying the Budget process until next spring is not representative of the community that it serves. Although an option.” policing has now been devolved, the legal framework That is the way in which to proceed. for ensuring that 30% of officers in the Police Service of Northern Ireland come from the Catholic community Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): What assessment remains the Secretary of State’s responsibility. Will he has the Minister made of the impact of deep public take this opportunity to confirm his commitment to spending cuts in the Northern Ireland Executive budget, achieving that target as soon as possible? not only for the public sector but for the private sector, which depends on many of the contracts that are let? Mr Paterson: As the shadow Minister knows, the Also, what assessment has he made of the impact of the Patten commitment was to achieve a figure of 29% to VAT rise on the ability of the Northern Ireland economy 33% by this year. The current figure is 29.33%, so we to escape from the recession? 867 Oral Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 868

Mr Swire: The right hon. Gentleman does not, of and unsustainable in the longer term for Northern course, draw attention to his Government’s own cuts of Ireland’s economy to be so dependent on the state £44 million, and he—and the House—would do well to sector—the relevant figures are about 70% as opposed remember that we are in the current economic situation to 30% for the private sector. We have to address that, as a result of the legacy of the previous Administration. such as by looking at other ways to kick-start the There are a number of positive things to say about private sector, not least through corporation tax measures. Northern Ireland, however: there is the increase in the We have to look at enterprise zones, too. All those enterprise finance guarantee scheme, and the waiving of things we are doing— national insurance contributions on the first 10 jobs created by a new business in year one will benefit more Mr Speaker: Order. We also have to move on. than 15,000 businesses in Northern Ireland, while reversing the most damaging part of the planned increase in Corporation Tax employer national insurance contributions will add a saving of about £80 million in Northern Ireland. Look, the situation is very serious, but it was more serious 4. Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): What progress before the coalition Government put these measures in he has made in discussions with the Northern Ireland place. It is not going to be easy, but Northern Ireland Executive and the Chancellor of the Exchequer on must play its part, along with the rest of the United changes to corporation tax in Northern Ireland. Kingdom, in confronting the deficit and getting the [14505] economy going once more, which must be the aspiration of every Member. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Paterson): My hon. Friend the Minister of State, the Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): What meetings Exchequer Secretary and I met Executive Ministers last have the Minister or his right hon. Friend the Secretary month to discuss corporation tax and how the Northern of State had with Treasury Ministers—and what Ireland economy could be rebalanced. We are working representations have they received from them—on public closely with them in the preparation of a Treasury expenditure in Northern Ireland generally, and specifically paper and shall consult on this later in the year. on the level of block grant to Northern Ireland after the spending review? Andrew Stephenson: I thank my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for that answer. Does he agree that Mr Swire: I repeat to the right hon. Gentleman that the problem with the Northern Irish economy is that there will be a meeting this afternoon attended by his the private sector is too small, and that reducing corporation party colleague the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy tax rates will help boost the private sector and rebalance Wilson), the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, my right the economy? hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and representatives of the other Administrations in Mr Paterson: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. Scotland and Wales, at which, no doubt, these matters Let me give one figure: 77.6% of Northern Ireland’s will be discussed in the proper manner. GDP is dependent on public spending. That is clearly wholly unsustainable, and our proposal is to rebalance Mr Dodds: I asked the Minister what meetings he or the Northern Ireland economy—which I estimate will his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State had had take at least 25 years—by a number of measures which with Treasury Ministers, not what meetings there had could include the devolution of corporation tax rates, been between Executive Ministers and the Treasury. thereby allowing the local Executive to reduce them. However, does he accept that the circumstances in Northern Ireland are unique? It is the only country or region in Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): In the Secretary of the United Kingdom that is suffering from the dissident State’s consideration and representations on these matters, terrorist threat—a subject that has already been discussed— will he take particular account of the circumstances of and that shares a land frontier with another country, border areas? Is he prepared to receive proposals on and it is also the only area in the United Kingdom that cross-border economic zones and their tax treatment, is coming out of 40 years of violence and terrorism, not least in the north-west, so that we can win investment which has greatly truncated the ability of the private and employment on the back of the cross-border Project sector to compete. It is also the only area that has Kelvin? already had 3% year-on-year efficiency savings, implemented by the Executive. Will the Minister ensure that the Mr Paterson: I am open to any ideas that will help to fabric of society and vital services in Northern Ireland revive the private sector in Northern Ireland, which we are protected by making sure that everything is done to all agree is too small. If the hon. Gentleman would like protect the level of the block grant after the spending to make suggestions, my door will always be open. review? However, he should remember that a lot of this is devolved, with the decisions in the hands of his colleagues Mr Swire: Let me put the right hon. Gentleman in the Assembly, and that this is a team game. straight: my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I meet Treasury Ministers regularly and have done Mr Shaun Woodward (St Helens South and Whiston) of late, not least to discuss the issue that confronts us all (Lab): I thank the right hon. Gentleman and the Minister to do with the Presbyterian Mutual Society, and we will for their kind words. It has been a huge privilege for my continue to do so. The right hon. Gentleman makes a right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and very good point, however, in that this issue brings to the Sale East (Paul Goggins) and I to serve the people of fore once more the fact that it is completely unacceptable Northern Ireland. Whatever my future, which is in the 869 Oral Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 870 hands of my hon. Friends, the right hon. Gentleman Saville Inquiry can be sure that we will continue our bipartisan support for his policy. 6. Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): During the general election, the right hon. Member What recent representations he has received on the for Witney (Mr Cameron) talked about targeting Northern report of the Saville inquiry. [14507] Ireland and the north-east of England for special cuts in Government spending. The Secretary of State tried The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen to blunt that with the prospect of cutting corporation Paterson): The reaction to the report of the Saville tax, but he will know from the Azores ruling that it is inquiry and to the Prime Minister’s statement to this legal only if Northern Ireland bears fiscal consequences. House on 15 June has been overwhelmingly positive. What is his estimate of the annual additional cut the Since publication, I have also met the families of those Treasury would have to take from the annual block killed. I have received no formal representations in grant to fund a cut in corporation tax to 12.5%? relation to the inquiry’s report, other than routine correspondence.

Mr Paterson: I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman’s Luciana Berger: Yesterday, the Secretary of State comments, but I would just like to correct an inadvertent once again informed the House that he will be meeting comment on my colleague the Prime Minister, who did the families who lost their loved ones in Ballymurphy in not target Northern Ireland; he just said, correctly, that August 1971. Will he assure the House that the issues it is one of those parts of the United Kingdom that is that cannot be explored by the Historical Enquiries over-dependent on the public sector. On the question of Team will be resolved by a process that is satisfactory to the corporation tax sums, I say, bluntly, that nobody the families? knows. That is why I am working closely with my Treasury colleagues—in particular, the Exchequer Mr Paterson: I thank the hon. Lady for her question. Secretary—to work out exactly the cost. Some international I think that she should understand the sensitivities of accountancy firms have estimated that, according to the these historical cases. Where I have given a commitment—I Azores ruling, about £100 million to £150 million would have a meeting planned with the families—it is appropriate have to be taken off the block grant. that I talk to the families first before I comment further.

Mr Woodward: The right hon. Gentleman will know Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): that Northern Ireland is over-dependent for a very good Whatever mechanism we adopt to deal with the past, if reason: because of the troubles. The answer to the we adopt any at all, surely it must be consistent. Does question is contained in the report produced by Sir David the Secretary of State agree that, whereas the Saville Varney for the Treasury, and it is that £300 million report dealt purely with the activities of the troops, would be taken out of the block grant. I simply say to soldiers and other activists on the day, the Billy Wright the right hon. Gentleman that the net cost to the inquiry, which the media attended, seemed to deal with Exchequer for 10 years would be estimated at £2.2 billion. issues before and after the events of the day? We need a He is a very good sort of fellow, so why does he not level consistent approach to try to bring some closure. with the people of Northern Ireland? Just as his party’s electoral pact with the Ulster Unionists left them with Mr Paterson: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, nothing, just as his party’s talks on the Presbyterian and that is why we have launched a process of talking to Mutual Society look like leaving small investors with local politicians and local groups to work out a way nothing, the promises on corporation tax will result in forward on how we handle the past. It was clear from at best nothing and at worst an invitation to his right the submissions to Eames-Bradley that there is absolutely hon. Friend the Chancellor to wield the axe. no consensus, but the hon. Gentleman is right that we must have a process that is consistent. We will be working on that over the coming months. Mr Speaker: Order. I ask for brevity, please, from the Front Benchers; other Members want to get in. Pat Finucane

7. Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): Whether he Mr Paterson: I am sorry that the tone has descended. has met the family of Pat Finucane to offer an inquiry All my colleagues in Front-Bench positions inherited into his death; and if he will make a statement. [14508] the odd prawn behind the radiator. We inherited Northern Ireland and a whole bag full of old langoustines stuck under a radiator going at top speed. We face a long-term The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen problem with the economy. The Varney report is, sadly, Paterson): I met the family of Pat Finucane while in now out of date. It cited a figure of more than £300 million, opposition. On becoming Secretary of State, I wrote to whereas the independent Northern Ireland Economic the family and invited them to meet me. Reform Group, which carried out a detailed study of the benefits that a reduction of corporation tax would Barry Gardiner: Will the Secretary of State elucidate bring, gave a lower figure. The fact is that we do not the questions that were put to him by the family at that know yet, and we will be studying this in detail and meeting? introducing our proposals later in the autumn. Mr Paterson: The meeting that I had with them in opposition was some time ago. I have a meeting planned Mr Speaker: These answers are lasting quite a long shortly and I think that it is appropriate, as I have said time. on several occasions, that I talk to the families first 871 Oral Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 872 before pronouncing further. The hon. Gentleman knows in Washington under the patronage of Secretary of from his time as a Minister in Northern Ireland how State Clinton, as well as the advance trip to Northern sensitive and difficult this issue is, which is why it was Ireland by her husband, former President Clinton, at not resolved by his Government. which representatives from Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland will be present hoping to attract Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Surely inward investment, which will benefit the very cross-border the Secretary of State will realise that, rather than communities to whom the hon. Gentleman has alluded. individual inquiries, it would be better to put the resources into the Historical Enquiries Team so as to allow a swathe of the people who have been injured and who PRIME MINISTER suffered through the tragedies of Northern Ireland’s years of terrorism to find answers to their questions. The Prime Minister was asked— Mr Paterson: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The Historical Enquiries team is looking at 3,268 deaths Engagements on a budget that was originally set at £34 million over Q1. [15257] Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): six years. We must contrast that with the Billy Wright If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday inquiry on which I reported yesterday, which cost 15 September. £30 million and looked into one death. The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am sure Cross-border Economic Co-operation that the House will wish to join me in paying tribute to Kingsman Darren Deady from 2nd Battalion the Duke 8. Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): What of Lancaster’s Regiment who died on Friday after being recent discussions he has had with the Irish injured in Helmand province on 23 August. We are for Government on cross-border economic co-operation. ever indebted to him for the sacrifice that he has made. [14509] We send our sincere condolences to his family, friends and comrades who all miss him very much. He will not The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo be forgotten. Swire): My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State held This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues discussions on economic matters, which are largely and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I devolved to Northern Ireland, with Irish Government shall have further such meetings later today. Ministers when he was recently in Dublin. The trade and business development body, which aims to enhance Julian Smith: May I add my sympathies to those of the economy on both sides of the border, is a forum the Prime Minister? operating under the North/South Ministerial Council At a time when we need to maximise growth and that also allows Northern Ireland and Irish Ministers to restore our public finances, is it not the height of discuss those matters. irresponsibility that the unions are planning to go on strike, and should not former Ministers be ashamed of Nicky Morgan: I thank the Minister for his reply. themselves for encouraging it? Have he and his team considered what lessons can be learned from the economic successes of the Republic of The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very Ireland in the 1980s and 1990s that could now be good point. Everyone in the country—the trade unions applied to the economy of Northern Ireland? included—knows that we have to cut public spending, that we have to get the deficit down and that we have to Mr Swire: Yes, we certainly continue to study that. It keep interest rates down. It is the height of irresponsibility is worth pointing out that despite the economic slowdown for shadow Ministers to troop off to the TUC and tell it experienced in recent years the Republic of Ireland that it is all right to go on strike. They should be continues to attract major foreign direct investment. ashamed of themselves. Indeed, the Republic of Ireland’s stock of direct inward Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): investment is five times greater than the OECD average. May I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to According to one leading accountancy firm, there have Kingsman Darren Deady from 2nd Battalion the Duke been well over 50 investment projects this year alone. It of Lancaster’s Regiment? We honour his bravery and is significant, we believe, when spending is being cut we think of his family and friends as they mourn their and many taxes are going up, that the one set of taxes loss. May I give my condolences to the Prime Minister that are not being touched in the Republic are the low and his family on the loss of his father? The words he rates of corporation taxes. used to express his love for his father touched everyone. Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP): I Today, as we welcome the Prime Minister back to his thank the Minister for his answer. Does he accept and place, I also congratulate him and Mrs Cameron on the agree with me that cross-border co-operation is vital for birth of their new baby. economic recovery in border areas of Northern Ireland? Let me ask about an issue that is of great concern on Does he agree that because of the banking crisis there both sides of the House—the trafficking of women and are major cross-border interests that we need to deal girls for sex. This week, a gang was convicted here in with at a British-Irish level? London for bringing girls as young as 13 to this country to be sold for sex. The work of the police and prosecutors Mr Swire: I most certainly do, bearing in mind that a has protected young women from that gang, but this lot of these decisions are up to the Assembly and the evil trade is growing. All parties in the House are united Executive. The hon. Gentleman will no doubt welcome, in their abhorrence of it. Will the Prime Minister update along with us, the forthcoming investment conference us on the work that is being undertaken to stop it? 873 Oral Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 874

The Prime Minister: I thank the right hon. and learned The Prime Minister: I have already answered that, but Lady not only for what she said about the serviceman let me make some additional points: first, the directive whom we lost in Afghanistan but for her very kind itself is still being finalised; and, secondly, there are words about my father and our new daughter. I am very opportunities at any stage to opt in to something of grateful for what was said last week by the shadow Lord which we approve. However, the key point is that we Chancellor and for the letters that I have received from must examine the directive and then ask whether opting Members right across the House. It is very touching and in would add anything to what we already do in this heart-warming that people think about you at times like vital area—[HON.MEMBERS: “Yes.”] Hon. Members say these, so I thank them for that. yes, but the fact is that we do all the things that are in Let me take this opportunity to say something about the directive today, so we then have to ask whether the right hon. and learned Lady, as I think this will be opting in would in any way endanger our borders and the last time that we face each other across the Dispatch immigration system. That is a question that a responsible Box. She is the third Labour leader with whom I have Government ought to ask, and it is a question that this had to do battle—she is by far the most popular—and Government will ask. she has used these opportunities to push issues that she Ms Harman: The right hon. Gentleman is hanging cares about deeply such as the one she has raised today. back on this—he should step forward and sign the She has been a thorough credit as the stand-in leader of directive. The point is that trafficking is an international the Labour party and I thank her for what she has done. crime. The traffickers work across borders, so we have The issue of the trafficking of women and girls is an to work across borders to stop them. Will he reconsider extremely important, sensitive and difficult one. I have and opt into the directive? been to see some of the exhibitions that have been run, including the one by Emma Thompson, about how bad The Prime Minister: I have answered the question. the problem is. We are committed to working across the The fact is that we have to work internationally. We are Government to do everything we can to help the police, working internationally as well as making sure that we to help at our borders and to make sure that we have in have what we need at our borders and in our police place all the laws and systems to bring this evil trade to service here in the UK. We are also looking at something an end. It is something that, tragically, has grown over that the previous Government did not put in place: a recent years. We often talk about how we have ended proper border police force, which would make a real slavery in our world, but we have not; it is still with us difference to securing our borders. However, as I said, and this is the worst manifestation of it. when looking at such directives, it is right to ask not just whether we are already doing the things that are in Ms Harman: I thank the Prime Minister for his them, but what might be the other consequences of complimentary words—it is just as well that I am not signing up. That is a sensible thing to do; the previous wearing a hoodie. Government signed far too many things without ever I welcome what the right hon. Gentleman says about thinking about what the consequences would be. human trafficking, and I am grateful to him and the Deputy Prime Minister for working with us on it when Ms Harman: I am disappointed by the Prime Minister’s they were in opposition. Will the Prime Minister help to answer. I know that some in his party are irrationally build on that work by agreeing that the United Kingdom hostile to Europe, but he should not let them stand in will opt in to the new European directive on trafficking the way of stopping human trafficking. in human beings, which the Commission proposed in Just one last question before I go. When the Conservatives March? were in opposition, they regularly complained that we had Prime Minister’s questions only once a week. Now The Prime Minister: I thank the right hon. and learned that the right hon. Gentleman knows just how enjoyable Lady for raising that point. We are looking carefully at the experience is, does he plan to bring it back to twice a the issue. From looking at the directive so far, we have week? discovered that it does not go any further than the law that we have already passed. We have put everything The Prime Minister: It is one of the few things that that is in the directive in place. I am happy to go away Tony Blair did of which I thoroughly approve. Quite and look again but, of course, as we do when thinking seriously, having worked for Leaders of the Opposition about all the things that we have to consider opting in and Prime Ministers who did Prime Minister’s questions, to, we have to ask ourselves not only what is in this I think that a half-hour session once a week is good not directive and whether we are already doing it—the only so that Parliament can grill the Prime Minister, but answer in this case is yes—but what might be the so that the Prime Minister can grill everyone in his or consequences for our security and borders, and our her office to find out everything that is going on in ability to take decisions in the House. That is the government. That is the right way to do these things. consideration that we have to make, and I give absolutely I know that we are not saying goodbye to the right no apology for saying that this Government will look at hon. and learned Lady—it is only au revoir—and that these things very carefully before signing them. she will be the deputy leader under whichever leader the Labour party elects. I note that she can spend some Ms Harman: But the difficulty is that the Government time over the coming days contemplating what to do have already indicated that they will opt out of the with the four votes that I think she has in the election, directive. If we are already complying with it in this because she is of course a member of a trade union, a country’s laws and practices, as well as working Member of Parliament, a member of the Labour party internationally, we should be proud of that and step and a member of the Fabian Society. Her position can forward to sign the directive. Will the Prime Minister be combined with her husband’s, whom I believe has reconsider? another three votes—democracy is a beautiful thing! 875 Oral Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 876

Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): Does my right Q4. [15260] Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton hon. Friend agree that one of the saddest legacies the West) (Lab/Co-op): Given the strategic defence Government inherited is the fact that one child in five importance of the aircraft carriers on which work has grows up in a household in which nobody is in work? already started, will the Prime Minister undertake to Does he agree that it is not just an economic but a moral meet urgently with me, other parliamentary colleagues imperative that we should, to coin a phrase, move from and workplace representatives so that they can put to a handout to a hand up? him their concerns about reports that the aircraft carriers will be cancelled, before it is too late? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right. If we want to tackle poverty, we must go to the causes The Prime Minister: I am sure my right hon. Friend of poverty. The chief cause of poverty is people being the Defence Secretary and his Ministers are happy to out of work generation after generation and, as he says, meet anyone who wants to discuss the state of the young people growing up in homes where nobody works, defence budget and the appalling legacy that we have where there is no role model to follow. That is why we been left. Of all the budgets that I have looked at, that is are pursuing the welfare reform agenda so vigorously, the one where we were left the biggest mess—£38 billion because we want to help people to get out of unemployment over-committed, and decisions taken that made very and into work. We want it to be worth while for everybody little sense at all. But the hon. Gentleman will be seeing to work or to work more than they do now. That is what a strategic defence review in which we properly review our welfare reforms, so scandalously neglected by the how we can make sure that we have forces that are right previous Government, have set out to achieve. for our country, right for our interests and ensure that Q2. [15258] Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): The proposed we protect our interests around the world.—[Interruption.] £400 million Mersey Gateway project, which will create Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): I am afraid I have no up to 4,000 new jobs in the area, is under threat props.—[Laughter.] because of the spending review, despite the fact that it is strongly supported by business and by all local With only five years to go to achieve the millennium authorities across Cheshire and Merseyside, including development goals, which are still way off track, what the Chancellor’s local authority. How will cutting will the Prime Minister do to ensure that those critical projects like the Mersey Gateway help economic promises are kept? growth in the north-west? The Prime Minister: My apologies for missing the The Prime Minister: We are not making any further joke. Next time I will look more carefully. I did not cuts in capital spending. The hon. Gentleman ought to know that we were allowed props, Mr Speaker, but ask the question of those on his own Front Bench. The obviously you take a more relaxed view of these things. Labour party went into the last election with a 50% cut My hon. Friend raises a very important point and the in capital spending in its figures, and did not tell us one conference—[Interruption.] single project that would be cut. We have said that that is far enough; we should go no further. We will be Mr Speaker: Order. I may take a relaxed view about protecting capital spending to help to boost the recovery some things, but not about excessive noise. The Prime in our country. Minister must be heard. Q3. [15259] Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend raises a very My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, in his important point about the millennium development excellent speech on parliamentary reform, promised far goals, set in 2000 and meant to be completed by 2015, more free votes in the Committee stage of major Bills. and there is a vital conference, which the Deputy Prime Can he confirm that this bold and courageous policy Minister will be attending next week, on that specific will apply to the Parliamentary Voting System and issue. This country—this applies to parties on both Constituencies Bill? sides—can hold its head up high, given that we are The Prime Minister: We have already taken some big going to hit the 0.7% target of gross national income steps to pass power from the Executive to Parliament— going to aid. That means that we will be playing our [Interruption.] Someone shouts “Rubbish.”We established part in making sure that those vital MDGs are met. It is the Backbench Business Committee. The Opposition important, although spending decisions are going to be had 13 years; they never did that. We gave the House of difficult, that we hold our head up high not only overseas Commons control over electing Select Committee but at home and say, “This is right, to help the poorest Chairmen. The Opposition had 13 years to do that. It in our world, even when we have difficult budget decisions never happened. We will be giving Select Committees at home.” further powers over selecting and looking at appointments in the public sector, and I am the first Prime Minister in Q5. [15261] Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): May I British history to give up the right to call a general join the Prime Minister in sending my condolences to election. As for major parts of legislation set out in our the family of Kingsman Darren Deady, who was a coalition agreement, I regret to inform my hon. Friend constituent of mine and sadly lost his life last Friday, that I will be hoping for all my colleagues to support having been injured in Afghanistan three weeks ago? them with head, heart and soul, if I may put it that way, His senior officer said that Kingsman Deady but should there be greater opportunities for free votes, “was a superb soldier—trusted, respected and an example to yes, there should be. I remember the previous Government, others.” even on topics such as embryo research and He will be sadly missed. experimentation, whipping their Members, particularly Bolton Community and Voluntary Services has already in the House of Lords. That was quite wrong and it will lost £89,000 of grants this year for small voluntary not happen under this Government. groups—groups often working with the most vulnerable. 877 Oral Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 878

Many organisations are on the brink of closure because Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): Like the last of those cuts. If the Prime Minister believes in the big Government, we have promised to act on the litter that society, what will he do to save those groups? defaces our towns and countryside. Unlike the last Government, will we take some real practical action, The Prime Minister: What I would say to the hon. such as starting a bottle deposit and refund scheme, Lady’s local council is what I would say to every council which a Campaign to Protect Rural England report in the country, which is that we all know—and Opposition launched today shows will protect the environment and Members know—that we have to make spending reductions. save local authorities millions of pounds? The Opposition were committed to £44 billion of spending reductions at the last election, and we should say to The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very every single council in the country, “When it comes to interesting suggestion. Bill Bryson has made this suggestion looking at and trimming your budgets, don’t do the to me as well because of the success that schemes like easy thing, which is to cut money to the voluntary this have had in other countries. I will certainly ask his bodies and organisations working in our communities. right hon. Friend the Energy and Climate Change Secretary Look at your core costs. Look at how you can do more to look at this issue and see if we can take it forward. for less. Look at the value for money you get from working with the voluntary sector.” The hon. Lady Q8. [15264] Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) should take that message to her local authority. That is (Lab): Back in June, Andrew Cook boasted that he was the message that I would take to her local authority, the largest donor to the Conservative party in and everyone should try to work in that direction. Yorkshire, and yet it turns out that his registered main residence is on the island of Guernsey. Can the Prime Q6. [15262] Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): Has the Prime Minister assure the House that when he accepted free Minister received any representations from Fidel plane flights from Andrew Cook, he did so having Castro on deficit reduction? Is there any possibility of satisfied himself that such a donation was both legally arranging a trade union conference pass for Mr Castro and morally acceptable? so that he might be able to enlighten the trade unions on cutting back the size of the state? The Prime Minister: Obviously it is up to every party The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very leader to make sure that when they accept a donation good point. This week it was revealed that even Communist they make proper checks and do so in the proper way. Cuba has got with the programme that we need to cut All the donations that the Conservative party has received budget deficits and get spending under control. So we are properly set out with the Electoral Commission and have Comrade Castro on the same planet as the rest of other bodies, and we do everything we can to make sure us; we just have to get the Labour party and the trade they are accurate; I hope that the Labour party does the unions on that planet at the same time. same thing.

Q7. [15263] Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): Burma Q9. [15265] Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) and Iran were signatories to the universal declaration (Con): Two weeks ago, Bola Ejifunmilayo and her three on human rights, but there are some men and women year old daughter Fiyin burned to death in an who cannot exercise those rights. In particular, Sakineh unregistered house in multiple occupancy. Often poorly Ashtiani awaits death by stoning, and Aung San Suu converted, with enormous fire risks, the majority of Kyi has been imprisoned because she won an election. HMOs in Milton Keynes and elsewhere remain Will the Prime Minister make urgent and renewed unregistered. What more can the Government do to representations to the Governments of Burma and end this plight and hopefully prevent another tragedy? Iran in order to free those brave and courageous women? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important point about an absolutely tragic case. As he knows, The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady is absolutely local authorities are responsible for licensing houses in right to raise that issue, and I shall do precisely as she multiple occupation, and they have the power to prosecute says and continue to make those representations. It is landlords who fail to apply for a licence—and they important that we make them not just to those should do so. There have been too many cases like this. Governments, but to Governments who sometimes take The law is there; it should be used. Our whole approach a slightly different view. When I was in India I raised the is to give local authorities the power they need, and the issue of Burma with the Indian Government, because I discretion they need, to take action for the good of their think it is important that we talk to the neighbouring communities; that is the change we want to bring. states of those countries and make sure that they are campaigning in the same way. Q10. [15266] Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): The human rights record in Iran is absolutely appalling. Building work is already under way on a new campus The person to whom the hon. Lady refers is being for Skelmersdale and Ormskirk college in my treated in a completely inhuman and despicable fashion, constituency, so it was a real shock to find that and we should be absolutely clear that the situation in £4 million committed to the project will now not be Burma is an affront to humanity. Aung San Suu Kyi’s available because of the Government’s decision to stop continued detention is an outrage. She has spent 14 of the budgets of the regional development agency with the past 20 years under house arrest, and her example is immediate effect. Could the Prime Minister please meet deeply inspiring. All of us like to think that we give up me and those at the college to try to find a way something for democracy and politics; we do not. through? The building is already going up, and this Compared with those people, we do nothing. They are would be a real embodiment of a hand up to the young an inspiration right across the world, and we should people of Skelmersdale and the start of the stand with them. regeneration of Skelmersdale. 879 Oral Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 880

The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady is absolutely Local authorities that wanted to get involved needed right to raise this specific case, and I will go away and a partnership for schools director, a director of education look at it. In the Budget, while we did make difficult project adviser, a 4Ps adviser, an enabler from the decisions, and some spending reductions were made, we Commission for Architecture and the Built Environment— actually put some money back into college building [Interruption.] I am sorry the list is so long, but it goes projects because so many schemes had suffered from on and on. [HON.MEMBERS: “Answer the question!”] the overspending and lack of control over the past The answer is that it was a disastrous programme, couple of years. I will certainly look at her case and see completely overspent and totally out of control. The whether a Minister can meet her to see what progress last Government had announced 50% cuts and had not can be made. told us where a penny was coming from, and the hon. Gentleman is largely responsible for it. Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): In Great Yarmouth, one of our Labour legacies is that we still Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): Could the Prime have one of the more deprived wards in the country. Minister confirm that the Minister for Immigration will Could the Prime Minister outline the plans he has to in the next few days come up with a solution for the deal with one of the legacies he has inherited, which is English language schools in the UK, so that the good the shocking breach in the achievement levels of deprived schools can move forward productively while bogus schoolchildren? colleges and bogus students are dealt with? The Prime Minister: I know that my hon. Friend the The Prime Minister: There are many things we need Minister for Immigration is working extremely hard on to do to tackle deprivation. We have spoken today that issue. We all want the same thing, which is to about the importance of tackling long-term unemployment ensure that Britain benefits as a provider of great education and joblessness that goes back through generations. courses, universities and colleges that can attract talented Clearly, one of the other things is making sure that people from around the world. But at the same time, we children from less well-off backgrounds are getting all know that there have been too many bogus colleges access to the best schools available. My right hon. and too many bogus students coming here not really to Friend the Education Secretary has announced this study but to work or for other reasons, and we have to week how we are going to try to help children on free crack down on that. That is what my hon. Friend the school meals to get access to the very best schools in our Immigration Minister is trying to do, and I am sure he country, and we want to expand the number of good will be in contact with my hon. Friend the Member for schools by allowing academies and free schools to go Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) to ensure that that is the forward. I hope that Labour Members will back those outcome of the policy. plans. The problem we have is that there are not enough good school places. It does not matter how many different Q12. [15268] Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East schemes are devised for lotteries or anything else for Falkirk) (Lab): I want to help the Prime Minister to getting kids into good schools, we need more good reconsider the fact that we are not signing up to the school places, not least in Great Yarmouth. directive on human trafficking, which, as he may understand, I know a little about. As a consequence, Q11. [15267] Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab): Talking we rely on sections 57 and 59 of the Sexual Offences of schools, on 2 September the Department for Act 2003. That means that we cannot, for example, Education sneaked out the equalities impact pursue or have any jurisdiction over someone who is assessment associated with the Building Schools for the normally a resident of the UK but is not a UK Future decision. That assessment showed that the national, who is involved in human trafficking. More scrapping of that policy had a disproportionate impact importantly, we cannot have jurisdiction when a UK on poorer children in our society. Can the Prime resident in another EU country is trafficked by a non— Minister explain what is progressive about that? Mr Speaker: Order. I think we have got the drift of it. The Prime Minister: One person’s announcement is another person’s sneaking out; I do not quite understand The Prime Minister: I will obviously listen very carefully that. Let me tell the person who was largely responsible to what the hon. Gentleman says, and perhaps he would for designing Building Schools for the Future what a like to set out in detail why he thinks this is so important. completely shambolic and disastrous programme it was. The point is that the UK’s victim care arrangements are It took three years and £250 million before a single already in line with internationally agreed standards, as brick was laid; well, maybe we should assess that. The set out in the Council of Europe convention on trafficking. other thing that we could perhaps assess—it is worth The UK already does what is required by the proposed reminding people of this—is the bureaucracy of Building directive on assisting victims, so the proposed directive Schools for the Future. There were nine meta-stages to would not improve the provision of victim care. Those putting in a bid. Each of the nine stages had further are the facts, and Opposition Members need to engage sub-stages. This is what a local authority had to with that point. do—[Interruption.] Well, the hon. Gentleman was responsible for the programme; I am sure this will be a Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): If the trip down memory lane for him. [Interruption.] Prime Minister were invited to lecture at Harvard university, like the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), on what subject would he care to speak? Mr Speaker: Order. The Prime Minister will be heard. The Prime Minister: I hope that my days on the The Prime Minister: Thank you very much. international lecture circuit are some way in the future. 881 Oral Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 882

Q13. [15269] Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): people are going to see from this Government, and I What is the Prime Minister doing to protect think it will be welcomed by local government up and manufacturing in the west midlands, and in Coventry down the country. in particular? Equally, what is he doing to protect the research and development that a lot of manufacturing Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Before companies rely on? the election, the Prime Minister said: “If I am Prime Minister a Conservative and Unionist Government The Prime Minister: The most important thing that will work with” we can do is make Britain a great place to do business, the Northern Ireland to set up a business and to manufacture. That is why we showed in the Budget that we are going to cut corporation “Executive to ensure a just and fair resolution of the PMS”— tax to one of the lowest levels in the developed world, the Presbyterian Mutual Society—and continued: why we are cutting national insurance for every new “you’ve done the right thing and you deserve for that to be business that sets up, and why we are dealing with the recognised and rewarded.” appalling economic inheritance that we were left by the How soon will that pledge be honoured? Labour party so that this economy can grow, have low interest rates and get moving to provide good jobs for all our people. That is what this Government are all The Prime Minister: I am determined that we will about, and that is what we are fixing. honour that pledge. This is important. I know how angry people in Northern Ireland are when they hear British politicians say, “Of course, nobody lost any Q14. [15270] Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Is the Prime Minister aware that the last Government took savings in the crash.” People did lose money, including £30 million a year out of our social housing budget to in Northern Ireland, and they are right to be upset and give to their friends elsewhere? Because of that angry. under-investment, one in 10 people in my constituency A working group is trying to go through those issues are on the council housing waiting list. Does he agree and to find an answer. My right hon. Friend the Northern that social housing money raised in Harlow should be Ireland Secretary is involved in that, and the Chancellor spent in Harlow, and that Harlow housing money is engaged in the issue. It is not easy, but we are should be for Harlow people? determined to find a solution so that we can give satisfaction to people who lost money in Northern The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very Ireland and who currently feel that they have been let powerful point, which is that in our relations with local down. government, at a difficult time in terms of budgets, we should be giving it money and taking away the ring-fencing Mr Speaker: Order. Will hon. Members who are and complications and all the different grants. We should leaving the Chamber do so quickly and quietly, so that say, “There’s the money. You’re democratically elected, the House can hear the statement from the Minister for you decide how that money is spent.” That is what Political and Constitutional Reform? 883 15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Individual Electoral Registration 884

Individual Electoral Registration The Political Parties and Elections Act 2009 was passed in the previous Parliament with all-party support. At this point, it is worth paying tribute to my right hon. 12.30 pm and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) and my hon. Friend the Member for Epping The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Forest (Mrs Laing), who worked tirelessly on promoting Harper): With permission, I should like to make a that. The Act gave us a framework for moving to statement on the Government’s plans for the individual registration. Introduction was to be on a implementation of individual electoral registration in voluntary basis before a further decision by Parliament—on Great Britain—Northern Ireland having introduced such the recommendation of the Electoral Commission—on a system in 2002. whether to make it compulsory from later in 2015 at the It is widely recognised on both sides of the House earliest, but it is our judgment that that is a slow and that the current arrangements for electoral registration very expensive way of doing things. need to change. At present, there is no requirement for I am announcing today that we will legislate to implement people to provide any evidence of their identity to individual registration in 2014. We will drop the previous register to vote, which leaves the system vulnerable to Government’s plans for a voluntary phase, which would fraud. Household registration harks back to a time have cost about £74 million over the Parliament. I when registration was the responsibility of the head of believe that there is a far more cost-effective way to the household. Access to a right as fundamental as familiarise people with the new requirements for registration voting should not be dependent on someone else. We and—importantly—avoid any temporary drop in need a better system of keeping up with people who registration rates. move house or who need to update their registration for We propose that individual registration will be made other reasons. Individual registration provides an compulsory in 2014, but that no one will be removed opportunity to move forward to a system centred around from the electoral register who fails to register individually the individual citizen. until after the 2015 general election, giving people at I am sure that Members on both sides of the House least 12 months to comply with the new requirements, are concerned when they read of allegations of electoral and ensuring as complete a register as possible for the fraud, including those alleged to have taken place at election. From 2014 onwards any new registrations will elections this year. Although proven electoral fraud is need to be carried out under the new system, including relatively rare, we should be concerned about the impact last-minute registrations. We will also make individual that such cases have on the public’s confidence in the registration a requirement for anyone wishing to cast a electoral system. The most recent survey, which was postal or proxy vote. That will tackle immediately the taken after the general election in May, found that one main areas of concern on electoral fraud, but it will third of people think that electoral fraud is a problem. ensure that people already on the register can vote at the We can be confident that any allegations will be properly next election and will have more than one opportunity investigated by the authorities, but it is right that we to register individually. take steps to make the system less vulnerable to fraud, Individual registration also provides us with an because tackling that perception is an important part of opportunity to tackle concerns about people missing rebuilding trust in our democracy, which is why this from the electoral register, which are held on both sides Government are committed to speeding up the of the House. But it is important to put this into implementation of individual registration. perspective: the UK registration rate at 91% to Individual registration will require each person to 92% compares well internationally, including with some register themselves and to provide personal identifiers—date countries where voting is compulsory. of birth, signature and national insurance number—which There is a significant number of people who are will allow registration officers to cross-check the information eligible to vote but not on the register. There is a variety provided before a person is added to the register, which of reasons for this and the move to individual registration should tackle the problem of fraudulent or ineligible provides us with an opportunity to do something about registrations. it. Whether a person chooses to register or not should However, I want to make it absolutely clear that there be their individual choice. But we should do everything will be no new databases. The Government’s commitment we can to ensure that people are not prevented from to rolling back the surveillance state will be demonstrated registering because the system is difficult to use or clearly later today when the House debates the remaining through ignorance of their rights. For example, research stages of the Identity Documents Bill. Electoral registration carried out by the Electoral Commission revealed that officers will check the information they receive from 31% of people believed that they would be automatically people applying to be registered with the Department registered if they paid council tax. Many of those for Work and Pensions to ensure that the applicant is people may not therefore actually take the trouble to genuine. People seeking to access public services are register to vote. As part of introducing individual already subject to various similar authentication processes, registration, as well as improving the accuracy of the for example when applying for benefits, and I do not register, we will therefore take steps to improve its believe such a check, which will help to eliminate electoral completeness. fraud, is disproportionate or that it represents an invasion I can also announce today that we will be trialling of privacy. Naturally, we will ensure that robust data-matching during 2011—that is comparing the electoral arrangements are put in place to ensure that personal register with other public databases to find the people data are securely held and processed by electoral registration who are eligible to vote but who are missing from the officers. Personal identifiers will not be published in the register. The aim is to tackle under-registration among electoral register. specific groups in our society and ensure that every 885 Individual Electoral Registration15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Individual Electoral Registration 886

[Mr Mark Harper] for the Electoral Commission, which was spelt out in that Act? Has he forgotten what his own hon. Friend, opportunity is available to those currently not on the the hon. Member for Epping Forest, said in the House electoral register. These pilots will enable us to see how and has repeated since the general election? She said effective data-matching is and to see which data sets are that of most use in improving the accuracy and completeness “it is right to take this matter forward carefully and step by step. of the electoral register. If they are effective, we will roll None of us wants to see a system introduced that would in any them out more widely across local authorities on a way undermine the integrity of our democratic system.”—[Official permanent basis to help ensure that our register is as Report, 13 July 2009; Vol. 496, c. 108.] complete as possible. The Electoral Commission will And is he not also aware of the endorsement of the also play a key role in assessing and reporting on the details in the 2009 Act by the then Liberal Democrat pilots. spokesman, David Howarth? He said: I will be writing to all local authorities responsible for “I do not think that anybody was suggesting that the timetable electoral registration to invite them to put themselves be artificially shortened”— forward to take part in these trials and I strongly encourage them to work in partnership with the exactly what the Minister is now proposing— Government on this important matter. Much work is “or that any risk be taken with the comprehensiveness of the already done by electoral registration officers to raise register.”—[Official Report, 13 July 2009; Vol. 496, c. 112.] awareness and encourage people to register, but I will be The Minister seeks to justify his announcement today considering further how local authorities. Members of principally by referring to electoral fraud. We all share Parliament and the Government might work together concerns about electoral fraud, which pollutes and to develop an approach that will make a positive impact undermines the democratic process, and the last on the level of electoral registration. Government, not least in the Electoral Administration Registration should be a simple process. We will also Act 2006, took active measures that are working to be considering how electoral registration can be integrated protect us better against fraud. However, that was not into people’s day-to-day transactions with Government, the principal reason for individual registration. That for example when they move house, or visit the post was about giving people rights as individual citizens just office, or apply for a passport or driving licence. as these days people have rights to individual taxation. What is the evidence that initial registration is the Our proposals will improve both the completeness principal point at which fraud takes place? In my experience, and accuracy of the register. We will therefore seek to the principal problems have come not from that, but bring forward a draft Bill for pre-legislative scrutiny in from personation at the polls of someone lawfully and the current session followed by a Bill to introduce properly on the register, or from misconduct over postal individual registration from 2014. The need to improve votes, where the 2006 Act provisions are working, but the accuracy and completeness of electoral registers is where further protection could easily be provided by the an issue on which there is cross-party consensus. As we simple arrangement of banning the publication of the move forward, it will be important for us to maintain absent voters list in the immediate run-up to, and during, consensus and we will be seeking to work closely on the election. implementation with political parties across the House. The steps that I am announcing today will achieve The Minister complains now about cost and complexity, change over the lifetime of this Parliament that will but given that our scheme in the 2009 Act was the safeguard the integrity of our electoral system and subject of detailed cross-party consultation by Lord improve registration levels. They are an important part Wills, then my right hon. Friend the Member for North of rebuilding people’s faith in our democracy and I Swindon, why was no such complaint made just six commend this statement to the House. months ago? That system provided a key role for the European—I mean the Electoral—Commission— [Interruption.] I had Prime Minister’s questions on the Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): I’m back again. brain, but happily the European Commission is not I am grateful to the Minister for his statement, but involved in this at all. The system provided a key role for not—I am afraid—for most of its content. Will he the Electoral Commission to certify that full steps had accept that his announcement today of the speeding up been taken, but the Minister’s provisions seek to bypass of individual registration, but without safeguards or the safeguarding role of the Electoral Commission. any additional funding, could undermine the integrity Why is that? of our democracy and lead to a repeat on the mainland The arrangement set out in the 2009 Act included a of the Northern Ireland experience, in which the voluntary process that the Minister now derides, but introduction of individual registration led to a 10% drop has he forgotten that the hon. Member for Epping in registrations and many eligible voters effectively being Forest specifically endorsed voluntary registration in disfranchised? the first instance, making that subject to certification by The hon. Gentleman referred to the Political Parties the Electoral Commission that it was safe to proceed? and Elections Act 2009, which was passed with all-party The Minister claims that our overall registration rates support, and he paid a fulsome tribute—entirely deserved, are similar to other countries. They may be, but will he if I may so—to the right hon. and learned Member for not accept that the overall average disguises the fact Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) and the hon. Member for that, as the Electoral Commission showed, in many Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), but why did he not go on to areas, especially in inner-urban areas and seaside towns, acknowledge the reasons the Conservative Front-Bench and among the young and those on lower incomes, team endorsed wholly and specifically the detailed timetable levels of registration are much lower than the average, in the 2009 Act and the special safeguards and the role and less probably than in other countries? 887 Individual Electoral Registration15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Individual Electoral Registration 888

So far as data-matching is concerned, there is no need, Jenny Watson, gave evidence to the Select Committee as the Minister implied, for further powers. They are on Political and Constitutional Reform, she welcomed already on the statute book and go back to previous individual registration, making it clear that it was an Conservative Administrations, with powers for electoral opportunity to give individuals responsibility for their registration officers strengthened by us, as set out in vote. She also said that introducing individual registration detail in a parliamentary answer given to my hon. would enable focused programmes to improve registration Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane). rates and gave some examples of programmes in Northern We will work carefully with the Minister to ensure that Ireland to encourage young people to vote. We will the data-matching arrangements are effective. continue to work closely with the Electoral Commission, Overall, however, time and again the Minister and which has set out some important principles that we the Deputy Prime Minister have accepted that 3.5 million plan to follow. voters are missing from the register. The burden of the As for under-registration, I made it clear in my remarks Minister’s statement today represents an admission that that we think that getting people who are eligible to the 2010 register will disfranchise millions of voters, yet vote on to the electoral register is as important as he is planning to use that register for the new fixed dealing with people who should not be on it. That is boundary arrangements, which will eliminate any local why we set out the proposal not to get rid of people in independent public inquiries. Given that, what possible the first instance, but to improve data-matching, so that reason is there for rushing the boundary legislation, we can put some proactive plans in place to tackle except the reason now helpfully and publicly put on the under-registration. However, the boundary review will record by the hon. Member for Cities of London and take place on exactly the same basis as the last one. We Westminster (Mr Field) and the right hon. Friend Member will use the existing electoral register, as with the previous for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis): that this is boundary review, which took place under the previous being done solely for narrow, party political advantage? Government, but under our proposals there will be more frequent boundary reviews—once a Parliament—so Mr Harper: That was a rather grudging welcome, I that we use the most up-to-date registration data and thought, for our plans. seats bear more relation to up-to-date electoral data. Let me run through the questions that the right hon. On a positive note, I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman asked. His key point, set out at the beginning Gentleman’s concurrence that he will work with us on of his response, was to say that we were planning to the pilots. I shall write to those local authorities this speed up individual registration without safeguards, but week, and I shall be happy to work with all parties in I do not think that he can have listened to my statement. the House to look at ways of improving electoral registration He specifically referred to the Northern Ireland experience, across the country, so that we have a more complete but what we are doing is entirely because of the Northern electoral register. Ireland experience, where there was a significant drop in the numbers on the electoral register, albeit one that Several hon. Members rose— most people thought was greater than what we could Mr Speaker: Order. A great many right hon. and hon. have expected from just removing those who were on Members are seeking to catch my eye, so I appeal for the register who should not have been. Clearly we short questions and short answers. would expect some reduction with individual registration, because there are some people on the register who Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): I thank should not be. However, the Northern Ireland experience the shadow Lord Chancellor for his courtesy in telling is exactly what we are trying to avoid, by not removing me a short while ago that he was going to mention what people from the register before the next election if they I had said on this matter. As this might really be his very have not registered individually—as I set out right at the last appearance at the Dispatch Box—we hope for a beginning of my statement—so I do not think that that Frank Sinatra-style comeback, of course—I should like issue is valid. to pay tribute to him and wish him well on behalf of The right hon. Gentleman quoted my hon. Friend Members on both sides of the House. He will recall that the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) as saying we have argued over this matter for more than five that she was clear that we did not want to undermine years. The previous Government delayed and delayed, democracy. The whole point of the safeguards and the but at the eleventh hour they at last brought in individual data-matching that I have outlined, along with the voter registration. However, they still built in delays. Of careful way in which we are going to proceed, is exactly course I have said in the past that I do not want so that we end up with a register that is more accurate anything to undermine the integrity of the democratic and more complete than the one that we have today. system, and I stick to that, but nothing that the Minister On fraud, the recorded statistics on electoral fraud, has said today appears to undermine that integrity. On which come from the Association of Chief Police Officers the contrary, he has said that he will proceed carefully, and the Electoral Commission, show that fraudulent step by step, and he has assured us that he has learned registration is one of the principal examples of electoral from the Northern Ireland experience. Also, the new fraud, and there was cross-party agreement in the previous system that he has devised will save money as well as Parliament that it should be tackled. time. As for the Electoral Commission and the safeguard Mr Harper: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, as I made comments, and I agree with every word that she said, clear in my statement, the Electoral Commission will including her fulsome tribute to the right hon. Member absolutely be involved in the process, advising us on the for Blackburn (Mr Straw). I thank her for her intervention. data-matching pilots. We have worked closely with the Electoral Commission and yesterday, when the chair, Mr Speaker: I am especially grateful. 889 Individual Electoral Registration15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Individual Electoral Registration 890

Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): Of course [Interruption.] We live in a free society, and people are individual registration might improve security, but it entitled to decide whether they wish to be registered to will also raise the threshold for engaging in the voting vote and to cast their vote. That is the position today, process. Is the Minister today announcing a reduction and it will remain unchanged. in the amount of money that goes to electoral registration officers? In his statement, it sounded as though he was Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): I very much welcome taking about £74 million away, but could he be more the Minister’s statement today. He mentioned the checking specific about the phasing of the budget for councils? of national insurance numbers. These are of course available to people who are not citizens of this country Mr Harper: What I announced was that proceeding or other eligible countries. What sort of citizenship or with the voluntary phase was going to cost £74 million, nationality checks will be carried out on those people? and we are doing away with that. The hon. Gentleman is an experienced Member of the House, and he would Mr Harper: Electoral registration officers already not expect me to announce things that are going to be have to undertake a number of checks to confirm that announced in the comprehensive spending review. I am people are eligible to vote, particularly in different sets confident, however, that the funds that we need to of elections. My hon. Friend will know that, for example, implement this in a sensible way will be forthcoming. in order to vote in a general election, a person has to be a citizen of the United Kingdom or a qualifying citizen Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) of the Irish Republic or the Commonwealth. Those (LD): The Minister’s statement is very welcome. May I checks will remain as they are now. The checking of the ask him to invite leaders of all parties in the House date of birth, signature and national insurance number together to maximise our input into getting all those will enable the registration officers to be confident electors on to the list who should be on it? I should like about someone’s identity, which will enable those other to suggest that this November should be a democracy checks to be more accurate. month, involving a campaign to do that, so that the register published in December has the maximum number Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) of people on it for the immediate and long-term future. (SNP): In these days of value for money and cost effectiveness, does the Minister see any merit in people Mr Harper: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that who are in receipt of a state benefit, and thereby already suggestion. I said in my statement that I wanted to work encountering an arm of the state, automatically being with local authorities and with Members of the House registered to vote? The same could apply to people to promote electoral registration. His second idea is a paying council tax, as he mentioned in his statement. very good one, and I shall think about it some more and see what we can do, ahead of the registration for this Mr Harper: While we are looking into data-matching, December, to make a significant impact. we are also going to look at other public databases—the hon. Gentleman has just mentioned a couple—to see Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): In my constituency, whether, using that information, we can contact people five Conservatives were jailed or convicted following who are eligible to vote but who are not on the register. illegal registrations. They will probably be the last people They could then be contacted to check their further to be convicted of that, because Lydia Simmons, whose eligibility—their citizenship, for example—and encouraged seat was stolen, still faces a legal bill of hundreds of to register to vote. The hon. Gentleman has made a thousands of pounds, which were not available because useful and worthwhile point. the Conservative party did not pay the costs of their representatives. When looking at this issue, will the Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): I warmly welcome Minister see whether there are ways of making funds this statement. It is long overdue, and I am very glad available to prosecute criminally illegal registration in that we are now going to have individual voter registration. such cases? I should also like to ask whether he is I hope that the Government will also make a statement changing the law when he says: shortly on postal voting. Postal voting on demand has “Whether a person chooses to register or not should be their undoubtedly increased fraud. Will the Government look individual choice.” into that, and will they take some action to curb it? I did not think that that was the case in law at present, and I wonder whether his statement is announcing a Mr Harper: My hon. Friend would not expect me to legal change anticipate future announcements. Today’s proposals represent one stage in improving the electoral system, Mr Harper: The hon. Lady would not seriously expect and we shall be looking at others in the future. I have me to comment on individual cases, particularly when I heard what he has said, and I shall think on it some do not have the details of them. On her second point, more. people are not legally obliged to register to vote. If they receive inquiries from the local authority—the household Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): There are currently registration form or some other inquiry—they are legally 3.5 million people missing from the electoral register, obliged to respond to them accurately, but there is no many of whom are the most needy people in the country, obligation on individuals to register at all. When registration and they form a significant part of our work load. is a household matter, and a person is responsible for Measures have been put in place by the previous registering other people, it is right that that should be Government and this Government, and I welcome the obligatory, but when individuals take responsibility for proposals to improve registration announced today. their own registration, it is perfectly reasonable to say The issue is one of timing. These measures will take that it is up to them whether they choose to register— time to settle in, and the freeze date for the boundary 891 Individual Electoral Registration15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Individual Electoral Registration 892 review is December. In the interests of fairness, review, let us have that review, look at the evidence and bipartisanship and an equitable work load for MPs, will only then look at a radical redrawing of parliamentary the Minister consider using estimated eligible electorates boundaries. as the basis for the calculation of new seats in December? Those voters could then be registered when the new Mr Harper: I simply do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s measures came into effect, and there would be no point. The last boundary review that came into place fiddling. for the recent general election was done using the existing electoral registers, and at least some people not on them Mr Harper: I take exception to the hon. Gentleman’s were eligible to vote. I have already responded to that use of the word “fiddling”. The boundary review proposed point. I am very pleased to work with colleagues on in the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies both sides of the House to ensure that more people who Bill will be carried out on exactly the same basis as are eligible to vote are on the register. I set that out in previous reviews, using the same electoral register and my statement and I made it clear that the Government based on the same data. I acknowledge that there are are as interested in the completeness of the register as people who are eligible to vote who have not chosen to they are in ensuring its accuracy. register, and that is why we have put in place measures to deal with that. My hon. Friend the Member for Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): My hon. Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) has Friend is taking steps that go a considerable way towards made some helpful suggestions about what we could do restoring integrity to individual voting, but may I reinforce this year, and we plan to fix this. When the hon. Member the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) raised this matter on Chichester (Mr Tyrie), that, given that we value individual Second Reading, I responded by saying that we would booths for privacy at the polling station, the over-extension put in place measures to tackle under-registration, and I of postal voting destroys that degree of privacy, at least hope that he will be happy with what we have announced within households? The Minister should look at this today. question again. People should have postal votes because they need them, not just on demand. Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): At the moment, we send national insurance numbers to young people who are Mr Harper: I hear what my hon. Friend—and, indeed, approaching their 16th birthday, yet, on the declaration my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie)— form that goes to the local authority, only those who are says, and I will think further on it. I hope my hon. 17 and older are identified. How can we ensure that we Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) will pick up those who are 16 and over and put them into welcome the announcement in my statement that although the registration process in anticipation? Would it be we are going to leave people on the register who have possible to promote this through the schools system? not individually registered ahead of the general election, The other thing I would like to ask is about the those who want to exercise a postal or proxy vote—the arrangements that are going to be made to check up on areas of greatest concern—will have had to register those living abroad. What will happen? Is there any individually, ensuring an extra safeguard. capacity to— Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The Minister has Mr Speaker: Order. May I gently explain to the hon. outlined some changes in electoral reform, which we are Lady that on these occasions, Members should ask a glad to see happening. Whenever we go knocking on single, short supplementary question? She has had a doors, as we do every time there is an election, people good run, but we will leave it there for today. always tell us at the last minute that they thought they were on the list, but they have moved house and so Mr Harper: The hon. Lady’s first point was valid. forth. Is it possible to allow late registration even beyond This is indeed something that the chief electoral registration the time currently allowed? officer in Northern Ireland has been doing—working with schools and also picking up the points the hon. Mr Harper: Our proposals in the Fixed-term Parliaments Lady makes about national insurance numbers. In her Bill, which will set fixed parliamentary terms so that evidence to the Select Committee on Political and election dates become more predictable, should enable Constitutional Reform yesterday, the chair of the Electoral organisations such as the Electoral Commission and Commission drew attention to the work in Northern local authorities to run campaigns to improve registration Ireland that has been particularly effective at getting ahead of specific elections. We will know when the date younger voters on the register. That is exactly the sort of of the election will be. The hon. Gentleman thus makes thing that we will be able to do once we introduce a valid point. Under our fixed-term Parliament proposals, individual registration and make individuals responsible it should be easier to deliver what he suggests. for registering to vote. Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Does the Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): Minister have any plans to improve the process of As my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn checking the identity of voters at the polling station in (Mr Straw) said, under-registration disproportionately order to reduce the risk of impersonation? hits the poorest, the youngest, the most mobile and ethnic minorities in our communities. I welcome the Mr Harper: That suggestion has been put forward, data-matching pilots, but surely it cannot make sense to and it happens in Northern Ireland. We are thinking go ahead with a radical redrawing of parliamentary about and considering it further. If the Government boundaries before those pilots have taken place. If the decide to bring forward any such proposals, we will Minister is sincere in wishing to conduct a cross-party announce them in the House. 893 Individual Electoral Registration15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Individual Electoral Registration 894

Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): If the Minister of things to be done. For an awful lot of people—almost wants data-matching, it is not a few paltry pilots that he a fifth of those not registered—it happens because they needs; he could do it right across the country. As to his have not bothered. As MPs and politicians, we all have statement that whether a person chooses to register to persuade electors that they should bother to register. should be an individual choice and in light of his Then, when they have registered, the next challenge is to answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Slough give them a reason for coming out and using their vote (Fiona Mactaggart), I thought that it was a citizen’s at elections—something that does not happen enough duty to register to vote. Is this for ever going to be today. known as the Harper doctrine—“If you don’t feel like registering to vote, don’t bother”? Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): Under the Minister’s plans for individual registration, does he Mr Harper: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that intend local authorities to collect as a matter of course citizens should register to vote. I said in my statement individuals’ titles so that those using the electoral roll that we want a complete register, so the Government respectfully to engage with the electorate can do so with clearly want the maximum number of people to register. due courtesy? The issue is whether we believe the law should say that someone should register and whether there should be a criminal sanction if they do not. I do not think that Mr Harper: That is not something I thought of there should be. Indeed, in her evidence to the Political announcing today, but the hon. Gentleman is absolutely and Constitutional Reform Committee yesterday, the right that for politicians it is sometimes frustrating chair of Electoral Commission said: when we do not have people’s correct titles and we end “I think the idea that your vote is yours and it is not somebody up with our individual computer programmes guessing else’s—you need to take some responsibility for it—will help and what they are, often getting them wrong. I will think enable registration officers to do more work.” further about this, but we should remember that in view The Government are very clear: we think people should of all the pieces of information we already ask local register to vote and we want them to do so, we just do authorities to collect, process and deal with, which are not think there should be a criminal sanction if they not essential for voting, we must be careful not to choose not to. impose extra burdens. As I say, I will think further about it. Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I welcome what the Minister said about individual voter registration, Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab): Despite my which I believe is long overdue. Two of my hon. Friends reservations about individual registration, I welcome have already raised the issue of restricting postal and what the Minister said about data-sharing pilots and I proxy votes, and I would like to add my voice to theirs, hope he will consider Glasgow as a candidate for such a urging the Minister to consider reintroducing the pilot. However, if we are going to all this great effort to restrictions—they were never removed in Northern share all these databases in order to identify people who Ireland—as the key way of tackling electoral fraud in have deliberately chosen not to register to vote up until this country. now, what is the point of the exercise if, having identified those people, we are not going to oblige them to register? Mr Harper: Again, as with my hon. Friends the What is the point of that exercise? Members for Chichester and for New Forest East, I have clearly heard what my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) has said. I cannot add Mr Harper: There are two questions there. On the anything to what I said before—that I will reflect further first, I shall be writing to all local authorities responsible on the matter. for registration suggesting that they engage with the pilots. The best thing the hon. Gentleman can do is to Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): speak to his council and his registration officer and Only 84% of registration forms are returned in Newcastle encourage them to participate. On his second point, because we are a large city with a large student and quite a lot of people have not deliberately chosen not to deprived population. I have always considered it to be a register. As I said, one of the key reasons is that people crime that people should lose their right to vote because have simply moved and have not got around to registering. of a moment’s inattention. In view of the coalition Some people do not know how to register. Many would Government’s “big society”, is the Minister saying that do so if it were easier, and if they were clearer about there is no obligation to register to vote? what they had to do. I think that if we approach them, tell them that they are eligible to vote and explain how Mr Harper: No, I did not say that at all. What I said they can do so, we will improve the rate of registration. was that with the current household registration, where However, in a free society, if someone deliberately chooses one is not just responsible for one’s individual vote but not to register to vote, that is a matter for them. for other people’s too, the law requires that when sent a form or approached for information, one has to give it. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Parliamentary When this becomes one’s individual responsibility and democracy cannot function at its best if nearly 10% of the only person affected is yourself, I simply said that I our citizens are not registered. May I urge my hon. did not think that it should be a matter for the criminal Friend to think again? I think most people believe that law. registration is a civic duty, and that they would be On the issue of why people choose not to register to surprised by what he has said today. May I encourage vote, the most common reason given is that people have him to make it a legal requirement for people to register moved house so that voting was not high up on the list when he introduces legislation? 895 Individual Electoral Registration15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Individual Electoral Registration 896

Mr Harper: I made it clear that I, too, think that Nick Boles (Grantham and Stamford) (Con): Is my registration is a civic duty. However, making it a legal hon. Friend as puzzled as I am by the argument of the requirement presents the challenge of deciding what right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), which sanctions should apply to those who do not register. I appears to be that we cannot adopt fully equal do not think that, in a free society, it would be right to constituencies until we have dealt with the inadequacies imprison someone who chose not to register to vote, or of the register over which his party presided, and we to hit them with a huge fine. In a free society, people cannot do anything to introduce the improvements in should be free not to register to vote without incurring a the register at any more than a glacial pace? Is not this criminal penalty. obstructionism the real attempt to use the electoral system for partisan advantage? Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): I cannot help thinking that we are making voting more difficult Mr Harper: It seemed a bit churlish to point out in for people, and placing more and more barriers in their my statement that if there were problems with the state way, when we ought to be making the process easier. We of the electoral register, it was not the parties on this have all observed that during general elections. It applies side of the House that had been in government for the not just to the young, the elderly and the disabled, but past 13 years, which is, I think, the point that my hon. to people who lives in houses in multiple occupation, Friend was making. Let me make it clear that we want especially those living in flats in Glasgow and some to improve the state of the register, but the fact that it is industrial areas. It will be difficult to carry out data-matching not perfect should not mean that we cannot continue in such circumstances. I am glad that it is to be piloted, with the boundary review. The last Government conducted but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South a boundary review, and we are conducting the review of (Mr Harris) pointed out, unless it is followed up and the the register on exactly the same basis. electoral registration officers are much more proactive than they have been so far, it will be a wasted exercise. It is worth pointing out that our electoral register contains the names of about 91 or 92% of eligible Mr Harper: The hon. Lady makes a good point. One voters. In that regard, we compare very well with other of the reasons for the data-matching pilots is to enable comparable democracies. However, we are not complacent, electoral registration officers to identify people who and we want to improve our registration levels still may be eligible to vote but are not on the register. They further. can then focus their efforts on that. As I have said, there is evidence that specific procedures to target younger Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): My right hon. voters and others who are not currently on the register Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) gave the have been very successful in Northern Ireland. example of Northern Ireland, where individual registration saw dramatic falls, especially in poorer areas. What Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): A significant number extra resources will the Minister give local authorities, of United Kingdom citizens living overseas are entitled and—this is very important—will he ring-fence those to vote, but at the last general election a not particularly resources to prevent authorities from spending them on significant proportion registered or, indeed, voted. How other things? will my hon. Friend ensure that more of them are encouraged and able to register? Could UK embassies, Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman has raised two high commissions and consulates be better used to issues. The fact that individual registration was implemented encourage them to register individually? overnight in Northern Ireland led to that sharp drop, not all of which was accounted for by the removal of Mr Harris: I have received and replied to a number of people who should not have been on the register because written questions along the same lines recently. The they were not eligible to vote in the first place, which is Government are considering those issues, and if we one reason for introducing individual registration. It is have proposals to present we will, of course, announce because we do not want to see a similar dramatic fall them to the House first. here that I announced the safeguard that we would not Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): Resources will obviously remove people from the register immediately, and certainly be crucial to the success of the project. A significant not before the next general election. proportion of British and Commonwealth citizens in As for the hon. Gentleman’s second point about my constituency do not have English as a first language. resources and ring-fencing, it is a difficult argument. What additional resources will be given to local authorities Local authorities generally take exception to central such as Leicester to enable them to deal with that Government’s giving them ring-fenced amounts and important issue, and will the Minister meet a delegation micro-managing what they do. I know that it can be to discuss it? argued that central Government should say that this is a different area, but that is not a view that has been taken Mr Harper: I should, of course, be pleased to meet a so far. I will think about the hon. Gentleman’s suggestion, delegation from the right hon. Gentleman or, indeed, but I do not think that the Government will pursue it. from any other Members who wish to discuss these issues. As for the right hon. Gentleman’s first question, Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): Without he will know that local authorities receive funds from simply reiterating the sentiments expressed by my hon. their revenue support grant and other resources enabling Friends the Members for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) them to carry out electoral registration. He would not and for Chichester (Mr Tyrie), I ask the Minister to take expect me to make specific announcements about the on board my deep concern about postal voting fraud. proposals for funding this project before the spending Although I welcome individual registration, I fear that review, but I am confident that it will be properly it will not wholly tackle that problem, to which I have resourced. referred before. 897 Individual Electoral Registration15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Individual Electoral Registration 898

[Paul Uppal] the register as a result of this process. Will the Minister therefore confirm that the pilots will look at as wide a In my constituency—I must choose my words carefully, range of data sources as possible? Will he give an because the case is currently being investigated by the assurance that he will look at sources from the Driver Electoral Commission—200 more votes were cast than and Vehicle Licensing Agency and the Department for electoral ballots were issued. I want to impress on the Work and Pensions, for instance, and from universities, Minister a point that was raised with me recently by a colleges and schools as young people are often not constituent. He said that Labour Members were going registered? Will he also consider looking at sources from door to door asking if people wanted them to help from utilities in the private sector, given that they form them to fill out postal voting forms. an important part of the registration process in Australia?

Mr Harper: My hon. Friend would not expect me to Mr Harper: I thank the Chairman of the Communities comment on an ongoing investigation, and I will not do and Local Government Committee for raising that point. so, but he has raised the issue of why it is important to As well as writing to local authorities, I will write to a make the accuracy of the electoral register more secure. number of other organisations, including civil society We intend to deal with the public perception as well as bodies, in looking for ideas on how to tackle this issue. I the reality of the fraudulent registrations that have said in my statement that we will look at public databases. occurred. As I said in my statement, a third of the Other issues arise if we want to look at private databases, public are worried about the security of registration in but we are considering that too as we want to use a wide our voting system, and it is important to the maintaining variety of sources. As I will be writing to local authorities, of confidence in our democracy for us to deal with I urge hon. Members who are concerned about registration those real concerns. to speak to their local authorities and to encourage Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): The Minister has said them to participate in those pilots. We want a wide that the proposed carry-over from 2014 to 2015 is range of authorities to take part, and we want to look at designed to avoid the adverse effects experienced in a range of data sources because we want to discover Northern Ireland, but he has also said that those who which of them are the most effective before we roll this carry over will be disqualified from postal or proxy out across the country. voting. Will that disqualification be noted on the register? Among the groups who lost out in Northern Ireland David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): I were the long-term sick and disabled, who made the congratulate my hon. Friend on the statement. I have mistake of believing that being on the standing list for listened to what hon. Members have said, and it seems postal votes was the same as being permanently registered. to me that while nobody will be removed from the register, there is a certain amount of uncertainty in Mr Harper: Those people will not be disqualified respect of eligibility to vote. Through these various from postal or proxy voting, but if they wish to have a registration documents, will the Minister consider giving postal or proxy vote, they will have to supply their people a particular number that could be annexed on to personal identifiers. Those who are already signed up the national insurance number? for postal or proxy voting and have already supplied their signatures and dates of birth will have to renew Mr Tom Harris: An ID card. those details from time to time and undergo a verification check. The information will be due at some point in the David Morris: No, not an ID card. Far from it; it will future in any event, and we are investigating whether we be a number, and that number will transfer with them if can synchronise the processes to avoid duplication. they move addresses. That would be—

Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): I warmly welcome Mr Harris: An ID card. the step to speed up the process of individual registration, but the overwhelming majority of people in the UK do David Morris: It would not be an ID card. It would not move from one year to the next. Although I completely be a number that was unique to each person. agree with having security for the initial registration— supplying national insurance numbers and, most Mr Harper: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. importantly, signatures—because the vast majority of The whole point of using the national insurance number people do not move every year, will the Minister consider as the check is that it is a number that is attached to the sticking with the current position of allowing annual individual. I think my hon. Friend and the hon. Member renewals on the list to be done by, for instance, the for Glasgow South (Mr Harris) were in danger of internet or telephone, rather than having to supply a anticipating the debate to come on removing ID cards signature every year? and the national identity register. Mr Harper: My hon. Friend makes a good point. People who are on the register, and who have supplied Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Given the identifiers and where verification has taken place, that one in five people in Britain are functionally illiterate will not have to supply the identifiers and go through and therefore incapable of filling in forms, and that that check every year if there are no changes to their many more cannot even speak English, does the Minister details. I thank him for making that point, which has accept that there will be a systemic deregistration of enabled me to make that clear to the House. people? Therefore, will he undertake to ensure that his review of boundaries is done on the basis of population Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): Data- taken from the census, rather than on a corrupted matching and data-sharing will be key if we are to registration based on individual—and, we now hear, ensure that thousands of people are not removed from voluntary—registration of certain social groups? 899 Individual Electoral Registration15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Individual Electoral Registration 900

Mr Harper: If the level of functional illiteracy in our concern about the answers he gave to my hon. Friends country is as high as that, it does not say very much for the Members for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) and for the education policies of the Labour party, which was in Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan), and that that concern power for the last 13 years. The whole point— appears to be shared by Members of the coalition parties. The Minister has regularly mentioned the Electoral Chris Ruane: The Conservative party has been in Commission. What consultations did he have with it power for 40 of the last 60 years. prior to making his statement? Is it his intention that it will continue to have, as the Opposition Front-Bench Mr Harper: The whole point about—[Interruption.] team has said it would, the role it was given in the Political Parties and Elections Act 2009? If he is serious Mr Speaker: Order. May I just say to the hon. Member about avoiding the consequences that arose in Northern for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) that anybody would Ireland, will he be flexible about the imposition of think he was auditioning to be a television sports compulsory individual registration in order to take into commentator judging by the frequency of his sedentary account the difficulties that may arise? interventions? He had his go much earlier—he did very well out of me. He should now listen to the Minister’s Mr Harper: We have, of course, been working closely reply. with the Electoral Commission. My officials have been working with its officials, and both the Deputy Prime Mr Harper: The whole point of using the data-matching Minister and I have met its chair and chief executive to pilots and so forth is so that the electoral registration discuss these matters. I think I can accurately say that office can identify eligible voters and encourage them to they are content with our approach. We plan to keep register to vote. It would not be right to use population them involved in the process: we want them both to data because constituencies should be based on eligible assess the data-matching pilots and, as we move forward, voters and not everyone who lives in a certain area is to comment publicly on the completeness and accuracy eligible to vote in parliamentary elections. That is why it of the electoral register so that there is an independent is not right to use census data. We should use electoral check on the progress the Government make. registration data instead. Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The experience Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): Will the in Northern Ireland has been mentioned on a number Minister look at the specific issue of college and university of occasions, and one of the lessons from our experience students who live at both a term-time address and a has been that resources need to be put into the Electoral different address during the rest of the year? Some are Office for Northern Ireland—or the local councils here registered in both places, some in one place, and others in Britain—to get to people who are hard to reach in in none. The result is that, as in Leeds North West, the terms of registration. Can the Minister give a commitment turnout figures are misleading because quite a number that resources will be available? Also, I welcome the fact of those people have voted elsewhere. I feel this needs that he says his proposals will be achieved on the basis particular consideration. May I have a conversation of consensus-building, working with other political parties with the Minister about it? and having pre-legislative scrutiny, but why does he not adopt the same approach on other important issues Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. such as fixed-term Parliaments? It is, of course, perfectly lawful for individuals to be registered in more than one place—they may do so if Mr Harper: The right hon. Gentleman asks a number they occupy two properties, for example—although it is of questions. On the point about pre-legislative scrutiny, not lawful for them to vote more than once for the same I hope hon. Members will be encouraged by that approach. body. The much-quoted survey about people who are Whether we can have pre-legislative scrutiny partly comes not registered did not address one particular aspect of down to timing. Both my right hon. Friend the Leader that issue: quite a lot of students who it said were not of the House and I have explained that point: early in a registered to vote at their term-time address are, of new Parliament Governments simply have to get on course, registered to vote at their home or parental with some things and cannot delay everything. However, address. The hon. Gentleman raises an important point, we plan to legislate to bring in these proposals in 2014. and I would be very pleased to meet him to discuss it. We will introduce proposals in a draft Bill. Colleagues on both sides of the House will have the chance to Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): I am not scrutinise them, and we will listen to what they have to sure whether the Minister is aware that there is considerable say before introducing a Bill for scrutiny in both Houses. 901 15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Points of Order 902

Points of Order have had a point of order—we are grateful for that—to which I will respond after I have heard from the hon. 1.28 pm Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing). Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): On a point of order, Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): Further to Mr Speaker. During Prime Minister’s Question Time, I that point of order, Mr Speaker. I had no idea that the asked the Prime Minister a question about the future of right hon. Gentleman was going to raise it and I have the Mersey Gateway bridge and the impact of cutting not read the report in The Guardian, but I am a member capital projects on economic growth. The Prime Minister of that Committee and was at its sitting yesterday said specifically and clearly that the Government were morning. What the report describes is not what the not going to cut capital projects. That seems to contradict chairman of the Electoral Commission said; in fact, it is what I have been told on the Floor of the House and in quite close to a point that I raised in that Committee letters: that a decision on the Mersey Gateway bridge is sitting with the chairman of the Electoral Commission postponed pending the review of expenditure. Incidentally, about the significance of the date of 5 November being that is in stark contrast to the cancellation of the six months before a proposed referendum. What the Building Schools for the Future programme, which is a right hon. Gentleman has just read from The Guardian capital programme, the cancellation of which has badly is not my recollection of what occurred yesterday, and I hit my constituency. Can you, Mr Speaker, arrange for thought it was as well to raise that. an urgent statement to be made to the House to clarify the position on the bridge because we do not want to be Mr Speaker: Not for the first time, and I am sure not in a situation where the Prime Minister is misleading for the last, there is a disagreement on what the evidence the House? is. What I would say to the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) and to the hon. Member Mr Speaker: I can make no such arrangement. What for Epping Forest is that I am not responsible for what I say to the hon. Gentleman in response to his attempted is or, alternatively, is not said by people outside this point of order is that he is a wily old hand, and some House. There is, of course, a system for the House to people might think—this could be uncharitable, but it consult external parties, and there is a chance for Members might not be—that he is seeking to continue the debate. to move amendments on which the views of others have He has put his views very clearly on the record, and I been given. The Bill to which reference is being made is, have a feeling they will be heard where he wishes them of course, a Bill that has been committed to a Committee to be heard. Moreover, if he wishes to follow up his of the whole House, and the situation is that people are grave concern on this matter with questions of one form free to volunteer their views to the Committee on the or another and in other parliamentary ways, it is open Bill. The Select Committee on Political and Constitutional to him to do so, and I have a hunch that he will. Reform is also conducting an inquiry into the implications of the Bill and, doubtless, it will report any views in due Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): On a point course. I see nothing amiss in what has occurred, but in of order, Mr Speaker. I hope that this is in order. I was the course of these brief exchanges the right hon. concerned to read in The Guardian today a statement Gentleman and the hon. Lady have placed their views from Jenny Watson of the Electoral Commission which fairly and squarely on the record. was based on evidence that she gave yesterday. She said that she could not really accept amendments to the alternative vote and boundary change Bill after November and that if their lordships amended it, that would make BILL PRESENTED her life very difficult. Is it right for the head of an Executive agency so to dictate to or tell both the other SAVINGS ACCOUNTS AND HEALTH IN PREGNANCY place and, as their lordships’ amendments come back GRANT BILL here, this place what they can and cannot amend and Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) when they can and cannot amend it? You have been very good in bringing Ministers to the House to be held Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, supported by the to account by Members, but the Executive consist of Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, Secretary more than Government Ministers; we have these new Iain Duncan Smith, Mr Secretary Lansley, Secretary agencies, the Electoral Commission in this case and the Michael Gove, Danny Alexander, Mr Mark Hoban, Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority in others, Mr David Gauke and Justine Greening, presented a Bill where there are deep concerns about whether MPs can to make provision about eligibility for a child trust carry out their duties. This new state within a state just fund; to repeal the Saving Gateway Accounts Act 2009; does not seem to be accountable and has an awful lot of to make provision about entitlement to health in pregnancy influence. grant; and for connected purposes. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time Mr Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman has made his tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 73) with explanatory point, but we cannot have an oration on the matter. We notes (Bill 73-EN). 903 15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Financial Services (Regulation of 904 Deposits and Lending) Financial Services (Regulation of Deposits interest rates—in order to encourage more savings. More and Lending) folk would save as a result, as rates rose. That would allow banks to extend credit in proportion to savings. Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order Were banks like any other business, they would find No. 23) that when demand for what they supply lets rip, they would be constrained in their ability to supply credit by 1.33 pm the pricing mechanism. That is, alas, not the case with our system of fractional reserve banking. Able to treat Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (Con): I beg to move, people’s money as their own, banks can carry on lending That leave be given to bring in a Bill to prohibit banks and against it, without necessarily raising the price of credit. building societies lending on the basis of demand deposits without The pricing mechanism does not rein in the growth in the permission of the account holder; and for connected purposes. credit as it should. Unrestrained by the pricing mechanism, Who owns the money in your bank account? That we therefore get credit bubbles. To satisfy runaway small question has profound implications. According to demand for credit, banks produce great candy-floss a survey by Ipsos MORI, more than 70% of people in piles of the stuff. The sugar rush feels great for a while, the UK believe that when they deposit money with the but that sugar-rush credit creates an expansion in capacity bank, it is theirs—but it is not. Money deposited in a in the economy that is not backed by real savings. It is bank account is, as established under case law going not justified in terms of someone else’s deferred back more than 200 years, legally the property of the consumption, so the credit boom creates unsustainable bank, rather than the account holder. Were any hon. over-consumption. Members to deposit £100 at their bank this afternoon Policy makers, not least in this Chamber, regardless or, rather improbably, if the Independent Parliamentary of who has been in office, have had to face the unenviable Standards Authority was to manage to do so on any choice between letting the edifice of crony capitalism Member’s behalf, the bank would then be free to lend come crashing down, with calamitous consequences for on approximately £97 of it. Even under the new capital the rest of us, or printing more real money to shore up ratio requirements, the bank could lend on more than this Ponzi scheme—and the people who built it—and in 90% of what one deposited. Indeed, bank A could then doing so devalue our currency to keep the pyramid lend on £97 of the initial £100 deposit to another afloat. bank—bank B—which could then lend on 97% of the value. The lending would go round and round until, as Since the credit crunch hit us, an endless succession we saw at the height of the credit boom, for every of economists, most of whom did not see it coming, £1 deposited banks would have piled up more than have popped up on our TV screens to explain its causes £40-worth of accumulated credit of one form or another. with great authority. Most have tended to see the lack of Banks enjoy a form of legal privilege extended to no credit as the problem, rather than as a symptom. Perhaps other area of business that I am aware of—it is a form we should instead begin to listen to those economists of legal privilege. I am sure that some hon. Members, in who saw the credit glut that preceded the crash as the full compliance with IPSA rules, may have rented a flat, problem. The Cobden Centre, the Ludwig von Mises and they do not need me, or indeed IPSA, to explain Institute and Huerta de Soto all grasped that the that having done so they are, in general, not allowed to overproduction of bogus candy-floss credit before the sub-let it to someone else. Anyone who tried to do that crunch gave rise to it. It is time to take seriously their would find that their landlord would most likely eject ideas on honest money and sound banking. them. So why are banks allowed to sub-let people’s The Keynesian-monetarist economists might recoil money many times over without their consent? in horror at the idea, because their orthodoxy holds that My Bill would give account holders legal ownership without these legal privileges for banks, there would be of their deposits, unless they indicated otherwise when insufficient credit. They say that the oil that keeps the opening the account. In other words, there would henceforth engine of capitalism working would dry up and the be two categories of bank account: deposit-taking accounts machine would grind to a halt, but that is not so. Under for investment purposes, and deposit-taking accounts my Bill, credit would still exist but it would be credit for storage purposes. Banks would remain at liberty to backed by savings. In other words, it would be credit lend on money deposited in the investment accounts, that could fuel an expansion in economic capacity that but not on money deposited in the storage accounts. As was commensurate with savings or deferred consumption. such, the idea is not a million miles away from the idea It would be, to use the cliché of our day, sustainable. of 100% gilt-backed storage accounts proposed by other hon. Members and the Governor of the Bank of England. Ministers have spoken of their lofty ambition to My Bill is not just a consumer-protection measure; it rebalance the economy from one based on consumption also aims to remove a curious legal exemption for banks to one founded on producing things. A good place to that has profound implications on the whole economy. begin might be to allow a law that permits storage bank Precisely because they are able to treat one’s deposit as accounts that do not permit banks to mass-produce an investment in a giant credit pyramid, banks are able phoney credit in a way that ultimately favours consumers to conjure up credit. In most industries, when demand and debtors over those who create wealth. With honest rises businesses produce more in response. The legal money, instead of being the nation of indebted consumers privilege extended to banks prevents that basic market that we have become, Britons might become again the mechanism from working, with disastrous consequences. producers and savers we once were. As I shall explain, if the market mechanism worked With a choice between the new storage accounts and as it should, once demand for credit started to increase investment accounts, no longer would private individuals in an economy, banks would raise the price of credit— find themselves co-opted as unwilling—and indeed 905 15 SEPTEMBER 2010 906 [Mr Douglas Carswell] Ways and Means unaware—investors in madcap deals through credit instruments that few even of the banks’ own boards Amendment of the Law seem to understand. Question put and agreed to. 1.42 pm Ordered, The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David That Mr Douglas Carswell and Steve Baker present Gauke): I beg to move, the Bill. That— Mr Douglas Carswell accordingly presented the Bill. (1) It is expedient to amend the law with respect to the Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on National Debt and the public revenue and to make further Friday 19 November and to be printed (Bill 71). provision in connection with finance. (2) This Resolution does not extend to the making of any Business without Debate amendment with respect to value added tax so as to provide— (a) for zero-rating or exempting a supply, acquisition or importation, (b) for refunding an amount of tax, ELECTORAL COMMISSION (c) for any relief, other than a relief that— [Relevant document: The First Report from the Speaker’s (i) so far as it is applicable to goods, applies to goods of every Committee on the Electoral Commission, Appointment description, and of nominated Commissioners to the Electoral Commission, (ii) so far as it is applicable to services, applies to services of HC 320.] every description. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing The resolution and the others on the Order Paper Order No. 118(6) and Order, 19 July), enable the House to embark on its third Finance Bill of That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying the calendar year. As Members will be aware, the general that Her Majesty will appoint as Electoral Commissioners— election and the need for an emergency Budget meant (1) Angela Frances, Baroness Browning, with effect from 1 October constrained timetables in legislating for tax measures 2010 for the period ending on 30 September 2014; this year. We have the opportunity in this Bill to examine (2) David Ross Howarth, with effect from 1 October 2010 for the technical measures that will benefit from the intense the period ending on 30 September 2014; debates Upstairs that I know so many of my colleagues (3) Roy Francis, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, with effect from enjoy. I will look forward to seeing many of them on the 1 October 2010 for the period ending on 30 September 2014; and Benches with me. (4) Rt. Hon. George Newlands Reid, with effect from 1 October The first Finance Bill introduced by this Government 2010 for the period ending on 30 September 2012.—(Mr Vara.) legislated for the key measures in our emergency Budget. Question accordingly agreed to. The Government needed to take quick and decisive action to reassure the country and the markets that we would not allow debt to spiral out of control. However, there remain a number of minor and technical measures that we inherited from the previous Government, which must be legislated for before 2011. The resolutions before us today form the foundation for such a Bill. It is perhaps worth pointing out that, alongside the Budget, I set out a proposed new approach to tax policy making that we have been discussing with interested parties over the summer. As part of this new approach to making tax policy, the Government are committed to being more transparent and to improving the scrutiny of tax legislation. As a first step towards that, we published all the legislation that will be included in the Bill in draft for consultation on 12 July. Representative bodies described that as a “welcome move” and the consultation has received more than 40 comments, leading to a number of technical changes to the legislation. That approach provides additional scrutiny, which we believe is essential in demonstrating that the Government are genuinely listening to how the tax system can be improved. Detailed examination of the Bill is for another day, but I want briefly to explain some of what is before us. The Bill will provide for improved treatment of company distributions and ease restrictions on research and development tax credits. It will relieve carers of unnecessary tax and assist trusts to help victims of asbestos exposure. Although small in nature, the Bill will introduce important measures to ensure better compliance with a better tax system. 907 Amendment of the Law15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Amendment of the Law 908

In conclusion, the Bill on which the resolutions are that once we have got past this limited No. 3 Finance based will take forward many necessary changes in the Bill, future Finance Bills will not be delivered in this tax system that make a difference to the broader public. way and will once again be full and comprehensive. The Government are making these changes responsibly, having consulted on all the legislation. I hope it will find 1.48 pm support among Members on both sides of the House. Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): I want to make a couple of specific points about the motion. 1.44 pm Although I accept that the Minister has said that the Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I am grateful to Finance Bill will be quite narrow in scope, there are a the Minister for his explanation and I agree with the couple of provisions in the motion that suggest that welcome, to which he drew attention, for the consultation there could be an opportunity for the Treasury to on and publication online of the proposed measures introduce a series of other measures. The Minister, as is before the summer break. the practice now, tried to set out the context in which the Finance Bill would be set, and obviously the Opposition There is still no good reason for this year’s post-election completely disagree with the Government’s approach. finance legislation being split into two Bills other than It is quite clear that a strong dollop of dogma has the Government’s wanting to get key measures on to the been introduced into the Government’s financial strategies. statute book before all the Government Members realised Rather than sensibly and prudently address the deficit, fully what was going on—before, for example, they had the Government are going far further, far faster than is the change to read the Institute for Fiscal Studies’ necessary, which is having a dilatory impact on the Budget assessment, published last month, which stated economy at large. However, that is a debate for another that the Budget was “clearly regressive”, or the analysis day. published by the TUC just a few days ago, which underlined the same point. The specific element of the motion that I want to address is item No. 6, the “Collection of income tax on We are committed in the debates that will follow to payments”. Senior officials from the Minister’s Department holding the Government to account on fairness and to have been giving evidence to the Treasury Committee scrutinising closely the quality of the legislation that the this morning about the significant concern that has Government propose, which I hope will reflect the been expressed by many of our constituents about benefit of the consultation to which the Minister referred. problems with the pay-as-you-earn system in collecting The Opposition will be busy once the Bill is in front of income tax that is owed, perhaps when miscalculations us, both on the Floor of the House and in Committee, were made. Some reports suggest that 1.4 million people but we have no reason to oppose the resolutions and we owe about £2 billion, which is an average of £1,400 each. are happy for them to proceed. There is significant concern across the country and I am glad that the permanent secretary and his colleagues 1.46 pm have given a concession today about the interest elements Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): Let me go back being waived, in part, when sums above £2,000 are over the last three Finance Bills that have become Acts. owed. That prompted me to look carefully at some of In 2009, we had 127 clauses and 61 schedules—the the regulations that the Minister has introduced, and I normal Finance Bill that we have all spent many pleasurable noticed that he laid statutory instrument No. 1879—the months Upstairs considering. The first Finance Act of Taxes and Duties (Interest Rate) Regulations 2010—which 2010 had 70 clauses and 20 schedules, and then we had sets out that an individual who owes money to Revenue the very brief Finance (No. 2) Act 2010, which had and Customs has to pay interest on it at 3.5%, but if 11 clauses and five schedules. The Minister tells us HMRC owes money to an individual it will pay only the today that there is a requirement for a third Finance Bill absolute, basic minimum, which I think is 0.5%. That this year to cover 18 areas—he described them as minor disparity is controversial and many people find it difficult technical measures. It might well be the case that they to understand why, in all fairness, there is not a two-way are measures that are time-limited to some extent and street. I wanted to use this opportunity to highlight this must be considered. However, my difficulty is that there issue; I have prayed against that statutory instrument will be two full years between 2009 and 2011 before we and I hope that we will find time to debate it. get a full Finance Bill. That Bill is important in terms of In general, will the Minister iterate an apology from scrutiny because it consolidates and brings together all his Department about what has been happening with the tax and duty measures in a single Bill and gives the PAYE arrangements? Will he also undertake that Parliament the opportunity to consider in the round the concessions will be given on the interest owed on any comprehensive impact of all these measures together sums to try to make it a little easier for those who face rather than doing so piecemeal, which is what is being an unexpected bill to bear that cost? done here, notwithstanding the technical reasons behind that. 1.52 pm I have no particular problem with the measures that Mr Gauke: With the leave of the House, let me are to be debated—I think that some of them will be respond briefly to the points that have been made. First, sensible—but I am looking for some confirmation before the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) I make a final determination on this measure that when asked whether this Bill sets a precedent for future Finance we get to 2011 there will again be a full, comprehensive Bills. The intention is to return to the usual one annual Finance Bill so that we can see all the tax, duty and Finance Bill; that is probably enough for most Members other financial measures in a single Bill for proper of the House—even him. As I outlined earlier, the Bill is detailed consideration Upstairs over the months it normally needed because of the general election and to take takes. I hope that the Minister can give us some assurance decisive action on the deficit. 909 Amendment of the Law15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Amendment of the Law 910

[Mr Gauke] 6. COLLECTION OF INCOME TAX ON PAYMENTS In response to the comments of the shadow Minister, Resolved, I should say that it was important that the Government That provision may be made about the collection of income took decisive action and implemented the measures. tax in respect of payments from which a person is required to Indeed, one reason for the fall in long-term interest deduct a sum representing income tax. rates in recent months might be that the Government have been determined to take decisive action and have demonstrated that by passing legislation to enable us to 7. COMPANY DISTRIBUTIONS do so. It is right that we should take further time this Resolved, year to go through some of the technical measures, and That provision (including provision having retrospective effect) that is exactly what we will do with the Bill. may be made about company distributions. The hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) asked about the interest regime, the provisions for HMRC in relation to the late payment of tax due and the 8. REAL ESTATE INVESTMENT TRUSTS interest that applies when HMRC owes money. He will Resolved, know that the provisions in the resolutions and in the That provision may be made about stock dividends in connection Finance Bill are intended very much to tidy up and with Real Estate Investment Trusts. bring consistency to some areas. The overall interest structure and a unified interest rate was introduced in the Finance Act 2009, which the right hon. Member for 9. FINANCING COSTS AND INCOME OF East Ham (Stephen Timms) might have taken us through, GROUP COMPANIES and we are not departing from what was in that. Resolved, The hon. Gentleman is right about the comments of That provision (including provision having retrospective effect) senior HMRC officials at the Treasury Committee this may be made about financing costs and income of companies morning regarding the regime for those who have underpaid that are members of a group. tax of more than £2,000. HMRC has said throughout that a sympathetic approach would be taken in matters 10. CONSORTIUM CLAIMS FOR GROUP of hardship, but what has been announced today is the RELIEF intention to make sure that everyone has an opportunity to pay off the underpaid amount without interest or Resolved, penalties being applied. I am sure that will be welcomed That provision (including provision having retrospective effect) by Members on both sides of the House. may be made amending Chapter 4 of Part 5 of the Corporation Tax Act 2010. Having responded to the specific points that have been raised in this very short debate, I am grateful that the motions have the support of the House. 11. VALUE ADDED TAX (SUPPLIES RELATING Question put and agreed to. TO NON-BUSINESS USE OF BUSINESS The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Questions necessary ASSETS) to dispose of the motions made in the name of the Resolved, Chancellor of the Exchequer (Standing Order No. 51(3)). That provision (including provision having retrospective effect) may be made— (a) repealing section 24(3) of the Value Added Tax Act 1994, 2. CAPITAL ALLOWANCES (b) about what is to count as input tax, and Resolved, (c) about supplies under paragraph 5(4) of Schedule 4 to that That provision may be made about capital allowances for Act. foster carers and shared lives carers. 12. VALUE ADDED TAX (GAS, HEAT AND 3. VENTURE CAPITAL SCHEMES COOLING) Resolved, Resolved, That provision may be made about value added tax in relation That provision may be made about the enterprise investment to supplies of gas, heat and cooling. scheme and venture capital trusts.

13. VALUE ADDED TAX (AIRCRAFT) 4. ENTERPRISE MANAGEMENT INCENTIVES Resolved, Resolved, That provision may be made about value added tax in relation That provision may be made about enterprise management to supplies of, or relating to, aircraft. incentives.

14. VALUE ADDED TAX (POSTAL SERVICES 5. SETTLORS’ EXCESS REPAYMENTS AND TRANSPORT OF PASSENGERS) Resolved, Resolved, That provision (including provision having retrospective effect) That provision may be made about value added tax in relation may be made amending section 646 of the Income Tax (Trading to supplies of postal services, supplies of goods which are incidental and Other Income) Act 2005. to such supplies and the transport of passengers. 911 Amendment of the Law 15 SEPTEMBER 2010 912

15. TOBACCO PRODUCTS DUTY (LONG Identity Documents Bill (Programme) CIGARETTES) (No. 2) Resolved, That provision may be made amending section 4 of the Tobacco Products Duty Act 1979. 1.57 pm The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): I beg 16. LANDFILL TAX (LOWER RATE MATERIALS) to move, Resolved, That the Order of 9 June (Identity Documents Bill (Programme)) That provision may be made about the criteria for determining be varied as follows: what material is to be subject to the lower rate of landfill tax. 1. Paragraphs 4 and 5 of the Order shall be omitted. 17. RECOVERY OF OVERPAID TAX Resolved, 2. Proceedings on consideration and Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at That provision may be made for and in connection with the this day’s sitting at 7.00 pm, or three hours after the recovery of overpaid stamp duty land tax and petroleum revenue commencement of proceedings on the Motion for this Order, tax. whichever is the later. 18. RELIEF FROM TAX (INCIDENTAL AND In the interests of allowing the House full debate, as CONSEQUENTIAL CHARGES) the Government intend to do, we tabled this programme motion as a precautionary measure in case the previous Resolved, business took us close to 7 o’clock. Looking at the That it is expedient to authorise any incidental or consequential clock, I suspect that this motion could best be described charges to any duty or tax (including charges having retrospective as otiose, but nevertheless it behoves me to move it. effect) that may arise from provisions designed in general to afford relief from taxation. 1.58 pm PROCEDURE (FUTURE TAXATION) Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ Resolved, Co-op): We have absolutely no problem with the programme That, notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the practice motion. of the House relating to the matters that may be included in Finance Bills, any Finance Bill of the present Session may contain Question put and agreed to. the following provisions taking effect in a future year— (a) provision about seafarers’ earnings, (b) provision about the criteria for determining what material is to be subject to the lower rate of landfill tax, and (c) provision for and in connection with the recovery of overpaid stamp duty land tax and petroleum revenue tax. Ordered, That a Bill be brought in upon the said Resolutions; That the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary Vince Cable, Secretary Iain Duncan Smith, Secretary Chris Huhne, Danny Alexander, Mr Mark Hoban, Justine Greening and Mr David Gauke present the Bill.

FINANCE (NO.2)BILL Presentation and First Reading Mr David Gauke accordingly presented a Bill to grant certain duties to alter other duties and to amend the law relating to the National Debt and the Public Revenue, and to make further provision in connection with finance. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 72) with explanatory notes (Bill 72-EN). 913 15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 914

Identity Documents Bill are trans individuals who feel genderless and prefer to Consideration of Bill, not amended in the Public Bill remain gender-neutral, as well as trans individuals who Committee genuinely identify with both genders. There are also people who identify with their non-birth gender, but need to continue to live in their birth gender in certain New Clause 1 situations.

IDENTITY DOCUMENTS FOR TRANSGENDERED PERSONS In Committee, I talked about my friend who I will (1) This section applies to a person who— call Jane. Jane is still working as John in a very male- dominated industry. She is usually Jane at home, although (a) is a transgendered person, she is not yet Jane with some of her family, especially (b) has not been issued with a gender recognition her elderly parents, who she does not wish to upset. certificate, and Jane is on a journey, but at the moment she has to live (c) is living in both the birth gender and the acquired her life in two genders. It is hard to imagine the problems gender. that arise in her life. What does she do when she wants (2) The Secretary of State must make arrangements for the to book a hotel room or a flight? The ability to have two issue to any person falling within subsection (1), on the identity cards has allowed her to go on holiday as Jane, application of that person, of two copies of a passport or some other form of identity document of comparable standing, one in but to continue to live her work life as John. Identity the birth gender of the person and the other in the acquired cards were not a full solution to the problem faced by gender. dual-gendered people such as Jane, however. Although (3) The form of the document referred to in subsection (2) the scheme allowed individuals to hold cards in both shall be prescribed in regulations made by the Secretary of State genders, only one card was valid for overseas travel. by statutory instrument, which shall be subject to annulment in Another trans person—I shall call her T—has contacted pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament. me to tell me about her experiences. After feeling (4) Any ID card issued to a person falling within subsection (1) transgendered from a young age, T has just started to shall (notwithstanding section 2(2)) remain valid until it expires, take active steps to make herself physically more feminine. or until the requirement in subsection (2) is satisfied, whichever is Of course, it takes time for the physical aspects of the earlier, and section 2(3) shall not apply in relation to any cardholder who is a person falling within subsection (1).’.— gender to change, so T is not yet ready to start living as (Julie Hilling.) a woman all the time. Anyone who has had any contact Brought up, and read the First time. with the transgender community will know the importance of people being able to pass as the opposite gender from 1.59 pm their birth gender. Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): I beg to move, That T is a professional working for a very conservative the clause be read a Second time. firm. She is only too aware of the difficulties she would face if she started to dress as a woman before she was Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this it physically able to pass. Although there is legislation to will be convenient to discuss amendment 7, in clause 2, protect such people against discrimination in the workplace, page 2, line 12, at end insert— she knows that she would face great difficulty in her field of work and that, if she was sacked, she would be ‘(7) This section is subject to section [Identity documents for transgendered persons].’. unlikely to get another firm to take her on. She has therefore decided that she will not start living as a Julie Hilling: It is a privilege to move a new clause to woman in the workplace until she is physically and a Bill in the House for the first time. mentally ready to do so. New clause 1 relates to a group of people who are T is a trans person with a life away from the workplace, often forgotten—in fact, they seem to have been forgotten however. She lives as a woman at home and goes out as by the Government because they were not covered by a woman. It is when T travels abroad as a woman that the equality impact assessment on the Bill—and for she feels most liberated with her gender identity. whom the identity card was a valued asset because they T has travelled abroad as a woman on a male passport, were able to have one card in their birth gender and but that was never easy, even when travelling to relatively another in their acquired gender. trans-friendly countries. Problems arose because when Changing gender is not something that happens she presented her passport to immigration officials, not overnight. People have to go on a journey that might only did she look different from her passport photo, but take several years. For the vast majority of people, it the document stated that she was male, not female. That takes at least two years until they reach the position of typically led to delays involving prolonged questioning saying that they wish to live as another person and are and embarrassment, but on a few occasions the situation able to undergo gender reassignment surgery. However, was more severe. In one country, she was taken for many trans people choose not to undergo surgery, either further questioning into a side room in which she was because it can be dangerous, painful or unsuccessful, or mocked and ridiculed by several male immigration officials. for other reasons. They refused to allow her to be frisked by a female Gender identity is extremely complex and there is a immigration official and she was inappropriately molested broad spectrum of trans individuals. At one end of the by a male immigration official—one can only imagine spectrum are trans individuals who commit to living in the humiliation. another gender and undertake gender reassignment After that incident, T decided to apply for a passport processes to help them to achieve that, while at the in the female gender and adopted a female name. That other end are individuals who feel trans, but continue to has had a remarkable effect on her life because she no live in their birth gender, even though they feel trapped longer faces delays and prolonged questioning. There is in that gender. In between those two ends of the spectrum no more embarrassment because there is no discrepancy 915 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 916 between the person presenting themselves to immigration We recognise that the problem is not easy to solve—either officials and their passport. When travelling in certain here and now on the Floor of the House or more countries, she is confident of joining queues to be generally—but a small but nevertheless important provision frisked by women, not men. Fortunately, she has not of the Identity Cards Act 2006 was introduced to bring experienced any negative issues when travelling as a about the existing benefit. We do not necessarily expect female on a female passport, and she is grateful for the a detailed answer from the Minister today, but she has protection that that female passport has brought. not reassured me, either through correspondence or in The problem has not been solved completely, however, Committee, that serious action is under way in government because there are still instances when T is required to to address the situation. The matter is not so much one travel as a man. She has not disclosed her trans status to for the equalities unit, which she indicated in her last her employer, so she has had to refuse all international letter was examining the situation, but one for the travel at work because any flights and hotels would be Identity and Passport Service, which deals with identity booked by her secretary and, of course, bookings have issues for the Government as a whole. to mirror the name and gender on a passport. Her We want a real commitment to action today, but all I continued refusal of international travel is likely to have have heard from the hon. Lady—perhaps she will expand an adverse effect on her career. on this during the debate—is the suggestion that the Government are looking to work with international The right to travel is an important aspect of the partners to remove gender markers from passports entirely. fundamental right to liberty, and T feels it is important That proposal could be subject to a huge debate, and I that she travel as a woman in her early stage of transition. am not sure that it is something that we would want to However, although she is dual-gendered, there will be happen—I think that Government Back Benchers agree. instances when she is required to travel as a male. She is The approach would seem to be a sledgehammer to therefore in an impossible situation because how does crack a nut. It would also confuse a lot of people, but she choose the gender for her passport? The most even if it was an answer that could be agreed as a way logical solution to the problem, as set out in the new forward, such international negotiations would take a clause, is that dual-gendered people should be allowed long time, meaning that the proposal is a long-grass to be issued with two passports. Of course, some single solution. We are looking to see a timetable for action gender people are issued with two passports, particularly and a commitment to action. I once again remind the when they want to travel to countries in which it is hon. Lady that she is now a Minister. Whatever her inappropriate to have the passport stamp of certain previous record, words are easy. Action may be harder, other countries, so there is a means by which two but action from the Minister is what we are after today. passports may be issued. A small number of people make up the trans community. The Minister for Equalities (Lynne Featherstone): As ID cards were not a perfect solution, but they gave Members know from my comments on a similar those people some liberation. I suggest that people amendment in Committee, I very much support initiatives should be allowed to keep their identity cards as a valid that will advance the rights of transgendered people. In means of travel until the Government bring forward an Committee I acknowledged the role of the hon. Member alternative solution. for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) in providing a measure in the Identity Cards Act which The Government indicated in Committee that an enabled a transgender person to be issued with two alternative proposal would be put forward to solve the identity cards, one in the gender of birth and another in problem, but unfortunately it has not yet been presented the gender of their choice. to Labour Members. I hope that the Minister will be As hon. Members know, only one of those cards is able to reassure us by telling us how the Government available for use for travel in Europe. The second card will resolve the problem experienced by a small group of issued in the second identity is available only for use in people who benefited from identity cards, but will face the UK for identification purposes. The person was difficulty due to the cards’ removal. required to choose which identity applied to which card at the time of application. Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ The hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) Co-op): I echo the comments made by my hon. Friend described to us in detail some of the complex and the Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling). difficult issues faced by transgender people—I should In Committee and through subsequent correspondence, say people with gender identity issues, because they can I have pressed the Under-Secretary of State for the be anywhere on the spectrum. It is not simply a case of Home Department, the hon. Member for Hornsey and being one gender or the other. As the hon. Member for Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone), on the consultation Hackney South and Shoreditch said, the transgendered that she and her Department undertook when putting community can at times be marginalised, difficult to the Bill together. However, I have received no answer, so communicate with and difficult to gather together. Her I hope she will tell the House the groups that she Government’s approach to transgendered people and consulted, given that the issue did not even feature in identity cards did not, however, extend to passports, the Government’s impact assessment. This House is a which it could have done. There was ample opportunity tolerant House, and I know that the hon. Lady is a both before and since the identity cards legislation was relatively new Minister, but if a mistake has been made, passed in 2006 for the previous Government to apply I hope she will have the decency at least to acknowledge the same provisions to passports, but they chose not to that in the House and to apologise to the people affected, do so. There are good reasons for that. who have very little voice. However, there is a vocal In speaking to the amendment, Opposition Members group in her Department who have been influential in did not explain why passports did not benefit from the shaping policy across Whitehall and beyond. same provisions. I intend to set out briefly some of the 917 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 918

[Lynne Featherstone] Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. If the contents of issues involved and what we will be doing to seek a the hon. Lady’s blog are germane to the debate, is it not consolidated solution on identity and for transgendered a requirement that the House should have access to it? people. I will deal in due course with the points raised by the hon. Ladies. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Unfortunately, Current passport policy enables a passport to be the blog is not a document, so that is not the case. issued in a person’s acquired gender without a gender recognition certificate, on production of medical evidence Lynne Featherstone: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. indicating that they experience gender dysphoria, or a I will answer the formal question from the hon. Member report to some such effect. A passport in the acquired for Hackney South and Shoreditch about consultation. gender can be a key facilitator in gaining evidence to The scrapping of ID cards formed part of the manifesto put before the gender recognition panel to show that a for the 2010 general election for both the Liberal Democrats person is living their life in the acquired gender, thus and the Conservatives. The policy received considerable allowing them to get the certificate. media coverage and our opposition to ID cards has The passport is, of course, an international travel been in the public domain from the outset. The coalition document. It is a good argument that one can get two agreement clearly sets out our aim to scrap ID cards passports if there is a difficulty with the stamp of a and to destroy the national identity register. Therefore, particular country, but there are identity issues associated although a formal consultation was not undertaken, we with passports that are more complex than the same have been open and transparent in what we intended to physical image and the same or a similar name appearing. do and what we are doing. A passport is issued on the basis of nationality and It is clear from the messages—Opposition Members citizenship. It is a secure document which meets strict may think a website is not a formal place—from the international standards and enjoys a high international community that transgendered people do not welcome reputation. The standards are agreed and set by the the state emphasising their individual circumstances. International Civil Aviation Organisation. That is why we will be engaging with the transgendered We are not aware of any member state that issues two community and others to determine what they consider passports on the basis of transgender, and there are a is the best approach and how we can best achieve a number of reasons why we do not currently envisage the suitable outcome to the issue raised by Opposition issuing of two passports—I made some inquiries about Members, which I agree is extremely important—how that possibility—to the same person but in different to deal with the state of not quite being one gender or identities and with different facial images. There are the other, or in process between the two. fairly obvious security and immigration control issues arising from a person travelling to a country in one Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) identity and perhaps leaving in another identity. There (Lab): So what the Minister is telling us is that the is also the personal situation for a transgendered person. Government did not carry out an equality impact I do not know whether hon. Members are aware that assessment, and that the substitute for that is following the Committee sitting, I wrote about it on my correspondence with individuals on her blog. That takes blog. It was clear—[Interruption.] That is often a good the place of an impact assessment, which is a legal way of communicating with the transgendered community. requirement.

Meg Hillier: I am amazed that the Minister tells us Lynne Featherstone: No, that is not exactly what I that she wrote on her blog about the issue, as though said. The impact assessment for the Bill was published that is formal Government process. I have asked her on 4 June 2010 and is available on the website of the repeatedly what formal Government consultation took Identity and Passport Service. The impact assessment place and her answer is her personal blog. Is this the indicates that the policy of scrapping ID cards does not way that the Government intend to continue? have an impact on statutory equality duties. As the Minister for Immigration indicated in his 2.15 pm letter of 19 July to the Chairs of the Committee considering Lynne Featherstone: The hon. Lady is pushing it. the Bill, the ID card is just one form of identity and That was not an answer to the formal question. I although the policy in respect of issuing two cards to a mentioned my blog to illustrate the point that security transgendered person may be considered as innovative, issues in relation to travel are not the only consideration. scrapping ID cards would not impact on their ability to There is also the personal situation of a transgendered access services or to travel in their chosen gender. It ill person. The responses to that blog post indicated, as my behoves the Opposition to make light of the transgender hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) community communicating through whichever means identified in Committee, that— it wishes. We need to be careful that in seeking to extend the Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) rights of the transgendered person when travelling, we (Lab): Will the Minister give way? do not create the potential for additional difficulties. That is why we intend to work with the transgendered Lynne Featherstone: No, I will not give way at the community and others on determining what they consider moment. I will finish the point I am making. The is the best approach and, in conjunction with the responses to the blog indicated that transgender people Government Equalities Office, consider how we can felt that would make them stand out—it would out move this important issue forward. It is important that them. we listen to those who are most affected. As my hon. 919 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 920

Friend the Member for Cambridge mentioned in well—a small proportion, but it served them well—and Committee, a number of his constituents who would be I am deeply shocked that, without any formal consultation affected and with whom he has had discussions do not or proper discussion with that community, we are now favour the approach suggested by the amendment. saying that we will get rid of it. At the same time, through the International Civil Aviation Organisation, we will discuss with our international Lynne Featherstone: We have agreed that it is an partners the issue of gender recognition in passports. It important issue and I understand that there was only is possible for a passport to be issued with an X instead one case of dual issuing—of issuing two identity cards. of an M for male and F for female. However, we anticipate that the use of an X may raise more questions Julie Hilling: I was not a Minister and cannot answer than answers. Instead, we will consider other options, that point, but I thought that we were supposed to have including whether it might be possible to remove gender impact assessments before we made legislation. The identifiers from passports, and look at any potential Government are making legislation without them, and I consequential security implications of this. We aim to am deeply shocked. consult groups in the UK this autumn and with the I wish that I were reassured, but I am not sure that I ICAO and others over the coming months. am. I listened to what the Minister said about the need to go forward on the issue and the transgender community Meg Hillier: I am puzzled that that proposal has being consulted on the solution. I hope that she will come out of leftfield one might say—but perhaps with undertake that consultation. this coalition, out of rightfield—as a solution. It seems Believe me, I recognise that the situation is difficult to like a sledgehammer to crack a nut, and it is a very big resolve. I understand the difficulty of saying, “Let’s not proposal to suggest that “male” and “female” be removed have a gender in the passport,” because that would not from a document that 80% of the British public use. be a solution; and I understand the difficulty of issuing To return to an earlier point, however, the Minister’s people two passports. The House should not misunderstand ego is quite extraordinary. Her blog and no official me; I understand that difficulty.However, it is so important consultation seem to be her answer to things, and I for that small group of people that we do not allow our worry about the civil service. There are some excellent citizens to be humiliated as they go through passport civil servants in her Department, as I well know, and control or people to lose their careers because of the they have to act on the basis of two political manifestos difficulties that they face. On the basis of the Government’s and a personal, political blog. Within government, there guarantees that they will take the issue forward, take it are statutory and other requirements for consultation, seriously and work on it, I beg to ask leave to withdraw but the Minister has come to the Dispatch Box to the clause. explain that this Government do not take them seriously. Clause, by leave, withdrawn. They prefer party political routes, with all their imperfections, to what one might reasonably expect, which are proper Government routes. New Clause 2

Lynne Featherstone: As I have already explained to PASSPORT FEES FOR HOLDERS OF ID CARDS the hon. Lady, we are taking formal Government routes, (1) This section applies to a person (“P”) who— too. Indeed, we will proceed with more formal routes (a) held a valid ID card on the day on which this Act was and properly consult a wide range of transgender groups. passed, and The new clause is impractical and fails to recognise (b) paid a fee for the card. its impact on transgendered people. It asks that ID (2) On the first occasion after the passing of this Act on which cards that have been issued to transgendered people P applies for a passport, the fee charged for the passport shall be remain valid until expiry or until another system is in reduced by £30.’.—(Meg Hillier.) place, but in practice that would mean that only Brought up, and read the First time. transgendered people would have ID cards. Apart from the huge cost of maintaining the ID infrastructure, Meg Hillier: I beg to move, That the clause be read a whenever that card were used the gender background of Second time. the cardholder would be immediately identifiable. Rather than enabling transgendered people to get on with their Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this it lives without interference, the proposal would bring will be convenient to discuss the following: them unnecessary and potentially harming attention New clause 4—Transfer of information from National and focus, and the same problems would arise if Identity Register to Identity and Passport Service transgendered people were issued with a bespoke identification document other than a passport. ‘The Secretary of State must ensure that any information recorded in the National Identity Register which— This Government are producing the first action plan (a) relates to a person (“P”) who has indicated that on transgender equality ever produced by an P wishes to retain P’s identity card until its expiry Administration. Perhaps Opposition Members did not date, and realise the unintended consequences of their new clause, (b) is relevant to an application by P for a passport, but I recommend that it be withdrawn. is transferred to the Identity and Passport Service.’. Julie Hilling: I am a new Member, and this is the first Amendment 5, page 1, line 16, in clause 2, leave out time that I have been through this process. However, a from ‘day’ to end of line 10 on page 3 and insert Bill has been introduced to get rid of previously enacted ‘will remain valid until their expiry date.’. legislation that served some members of our community Amendment 6, page 2, line 13, leave out clause 3. 921 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 922

[Mr Deputy Speaker] Meg Hillier: If the hon. Gentleman had had the courtesy to listen, he would have heard me deal with Amendment 8, page 2, line 16, in clause 3, at end that point at the beginning of my comments. insert— We also suggest an alternative, so the Government ‘(2) The Secretary of State must, before the end of the period have a choice. The Minister has two options in order to of four months beginning with the day on which this Act is be fair to those members of the British public who passed, present to Parliament a report identifying the bought a card in good faith. The alternative is to allow information destroyed in accordance with subsection (1).’. cards to continue for 10 years and, again, with the permission of the individual cardholder, for data to be Meg Hillier: I shall not rehearse all the arguments migrated to the passport database, which is not a terribly that were made in Committee, but the Opposition are difficult transaction, so that ID cards can continue as concerned about the mean-spirited nature of the Bill. passports. We recognise that that is not a perfect solution, Some 14,000 people took up ID cards, most of which because with few cards already out there and, given all were paid for, and those individuals thought that the the points that we rehearsed in Committee about someone’s cards would be valid for 10 years. It was a simple ability to recognise the document, there might still be transaction not just with a commercial body, but with issues. However, that would represent a choice for the Her Majesty’s Government and, indeed, the Identity individual who had paid their £30 to have the card. and Passport Service, one of the most trusted public bodies in this country, as research shows. Yet if the Bill goes the way the Government wish and, similarly, through Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): We learned the Lords, one month after Royal Assent those individuals in Committee that of the 14,670 ID cards that were will lose the ability to use the card that they had thought issued, almost 3,000 were given free of charge, so only would be valid for 10 years. We have tabled some new 11,000 cards were paid for. Are the Opposition, in the proposals and given the Government a choice about second of their two options, suggesting that we maintain how to deal with the matter. There is still an opportunity the card infrastructure for the next 10 years just for for the Minister for Immigration to recognise that, in those 11,000 people, at a cost of £50 million to £60 million his haste to get rid of identity cards, which for him is a for 16 people per constituency? big ideological issue, he does not need also to be unfair to those who in good faith paid their £30. 2.30 pm The new clause and amendments detail two proposals. Meg Hillier: That is not what we are suggesting, as There is no money resolution attached to the Bill, so we the hon. Gentleman would see if he read the new clause. cannot press for a refund. However, we propose that the As I said, we are suggesting that the information be fee that people paid be added as a credit to the passport migrated to the passport database. database. The data-matching would be relatively straightforward, given that everybody who holds an We recognise that this is a rare area of unity for both identity card, including myself, has, or has recently had, Government parties, which is perhaps why it is being a passport. Of course, there are data protection rules, rushed through. The Government clearly want to get and we would have to gain permission from those rid of the national identity register. However, it would individuals, but I would happily give permission for my not be difficult to migrate data to the passport database, data to be transferred. especially given that everybody who currently holds a card has recently held, or currently holds, a passport. In the process, we would lose the fingerprint, because Of the 11,000 people affected, many may choose not to it cannot be stored—[Interruption.] I am glad to see take up migration of the card. If there were to be the that the Minister is listening. It cannot be stored on the option of a credit on their passport database, some may passport database—[Interruption.] I am being ironic: not choose to take that up either. However, it would the Minister will, I hope, be listening in a moment. It give them the option. I believe that it can be done cannot be stored, because the Government, in their relatively cheaply, and that it is fair. desire to get rid of it so quickly—[Interruption.] In their reckless desire to get rid of it quickly, I repeat for This is being done with the ideologically driven haste the Minister, the Government do not plan to introduce of the Minister. We have debated this previously and I passports with fingerprints. However, that credit would know that he is passionate about getting rid of ID give some comfort to those who paid £30, and it would cards, but basic fairness is involved. Frankly, those who represent basic fairness. bought in good faith from the trusted Identity and The Government make great play of fairness; they Passport Service have been diddled by this Government. often point to their coalition agreement, which makes If the Minister gets up and talks about what his manifesto much of it; and, as we seem to be quoting manifestos said, we will be driven to despair. We discussed this in today, each individual party spoke about fairness in its Committee. When somebody buys a passport or an manifesto, so we ask that the proposal be considered. It identity card, or has any other transaction with would be a relatively straightforward transaction, and Government, they will not necessarily take into account with another amendment we will probe the Minister on something that has been said in a political manifesto. a further issue. If the Government are planning to Government has some degree of continuity and when destroy the data, they will have to handle the information an individual has bought something in good faith, there and do something with it, so they might as well pass it needs to be some recompense for them. over to the passport database. We recognise, reluctantly, that both parties in this Government had a mandate to get rid of identity cards; Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): Does the hon. Lady as I said, it is one area of unanimity within the coalition. expect the repayment to be made to those persons who Therefore, whatever our position on that general issue, received that particular facility for free? we will not press the matter to a vote. However, the issue 923 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 924 of compensation is very important, and we will seek to Pete Wishart: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, divide the House on the new clause unless the Minister because I have that quote from the right hon. Member can give us some reassurances. for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), who said: “As someone who is liberal on social issues and civil liberties, I Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I accept that in government we were too draconian on aspects of rise vigorously to oppose the new clause. our civil liberties…We have to have to be able to say we won’t go We have to be absolutely and abundantly clear about back to ID cards.” the fact that identity cards are exclusively and solely a Come on, the rest of you—catch up! He might be your new Labour creation. Every single other party in this leader, because according to the opinion polls, he is House made it absolutely clear that we would have ahead. You are way behind current thinking on this. nothing whatsoever to do with them and that if we had Labour had a good record on civil liberties until new even the remotest opportunity to get rid of these useless Labour came along—please get back in touch with and intrusive lumps of plastic, we would do so immediately. your civil libertarian roots. We actively encouraged people not to take out ID cards. For those who did so, under new Labour encouragement, Meg Hillier: I am interested to hear the Scottish that was their free and fair choice: tough luck to them. National party’s position. In fact, people could not We are now enacting exactly what we told them. The easily apply for ID cards in Scotland, and that is why new coalition Government are absolutely right to try to very few did so. They were not formally launched there get rid of ID cards. They said they would do it in at the point at which the Government changed, but they 100 days. I am disappointed that it will take a little bit would have been coming and I am sure that there are longer than that, but thank goodness we are getting rid many people in Scotland who would have liked to have of this hated, obtrusive and ridiculous scheme. had one. We refer to these as ID cards, but let us give them Leaving that aside, it would be interesting to know their proper name. They are not ID cards, but NLID what the SNP’s position is on fingerprints in passports, cards—new Labour identity cards. They are a monumental which is something that Members from many parties in folly that symbolises new Labour’s attempt to create the this House, both Government and Opposition, have anti-civil libertarian state, and thank goodness they did indicated is very important, and something that my not get away with it. Instead of droning on about right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North has compensating the poor mugs they encouraged to take not ruled out. out ID cards, why do not Labour Members get on board and join us in celebrating the removal of these Pete Wishart: If you will allow me, Mr Deputy Speaker, things? Nobody wants them. because we are straying somewhat from the terms of the Catherine McKinnell: I appreciate the very strong debate, I would say to the hon. Lady that I am very feelings that the hon. Gentleman is conveying, but I pleased that the coalition Government are picking up want to draw out his views not on whether ID cards the Scottish example as regards databases. They have should be abolished but on whether individuals who seen the good sense of the SNP Government in their paid for them honestly and in good faith should be approach to these issues, and I congratulate them on recompensed, as suggested in the new clause. following and copying their model. Given that it was Labour Members alone and exclusively Pete Wishart: I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s who encouraged people to take out ID cards, why are intervention. We told people who were thinking about they asking the taxpayer to help with compensation? It taking out an ID card, “Don’t do it—we’re going to should be the Labour party that compensates the poor abolish this scheme.” In fact, if someone took out an ID souls who took them out. It has all these trade union card in Scotland, they would not require compensation funds—what is it going to do with them? If you want but having their head looked at. The Scottish Government compensation to be paid to these people, pay it yourself. made it clear that people would not be able to use an ID I have one bit of comfort for all those who have taken card to access public services in Scotland. We did everything out ID cards in the course of the past year: they are we could as a Government and as a party to discourage becoming a collector’s item. This is really intriguing and people in Scotland from taking out ID cards—and interesting. Forget about compensation—all they need thank goodness they listened to us. I think that perhaps to do is get one of the great Labour champions of the one in 10 of the people involved took out an ID card in anti-civil libertarian state to sign their card. If anyone Scotland. Anyone who did so would have to be the watching this has an ID card, they should get Mr Clarke, biggest new Labour cheerleader waving in and celebrating Mr Reid or Jacqui Smith to sign it, and that will the arrival of the anti-civil libertarian state in Scotland. increase its collectability. They might get more than the They would need to have had “Kirkcaldy and £30 that they want the Government to pay them back. Cowdenbeath’s Finest” tattooed on their chest to have Here is a good idea: they should get the absolute taken out an ID card in Scotland: that is how ridiculous champion of ID cards, the right hon. Member for a proposition it would have been. Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): I thank the hon. to sign it; they would probably turn a profit given the Gentleman for giving way in the course of such an collectability that that would have in the future. The impassioned speech. Does he agree that not all Labour collectability of ID cards makes them almost like little Members take the same view? In fact, the Labour party bits of the Berlin wall, appropriately, and that is how leadership candidate, the right hon. Member for Doncaster they are likely to remain. North (Edward Miliband), has said that ID cards were I make a plea to the Labour party: get on board with a great mistake and that the party should show some this. Get in touch with your civil libertarian roots, find a humility and admit that it got it wrong. new agenda, listen to what is happening in your leadership 925 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 926

[Pete Wishart] Government consisting of two parties that made their position crystal clear before the election, yet if we accept contest, and forget about droning on about compensation the amendment, we will be applying a different rule. and trying to get this scheme to go on. It is done, Politics is a tough occupation—I am sure we all have finished—move on. I am with the Government on this direct experience of that. We win some, we lose some. one. We should reject this new clause, make sure that Labour comprehensively lost the argument on identity nobody gets compensation, and end the scheme tomorrow cards and the national register, and I submit that in if we can. those circumstances, the best thing for it to do is accept defeat gracefully and not press the new clause. Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): It is a real pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Perth and Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): The hon. North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), who, with Celtic chutzpah, Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) was eloquent put the damning case against identity cards and the and I agree with much of what he said, above all about national identity register extremely well and with great the centrality of the manifesto on which a party is wit and humour. I pay tribute to him. elected. The Conservative party was elected on a very I am sure that the hon. Member for Hackney South clear manifesto against the alternative vote, and of and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) will forgive me for saying course Conservative Members are now marching into that the fortitude with which she moved the new clause the Lobby to vote for a referendum on it. However, he characterised her approach throughout the long march will have to learn a lesson about politics that I have had of ID cards up to the top of the hill and now, happily, to learn for much of my life, which is the pleasure of down again. She reminds me of Queen Victoria during swallowing one’s previous pledges and standing on one’s the Boer war. When it was put to her in the early stages head. On AV, which is far more important than this that there was a possibility of defeat, she memorably minor Bill, the Conservative party is doing both. The said, “I do not accept the possibility of defeat. It does nation will duly take note. not exist.” The attitude of the hon. Lady and the former Government to ID cards is encapsulated in that memorable 2.45 pm quotation. There has been a state of denial and an The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire almost fanatical refusal of the reality of how the debate (Pete Wishart) was wondrous in his eloquence. His on ID cards has shifted since the early days, when I speech was clearly a bid to join the coalition, and I concede opinion polls were somewhat against those would have thought that he should get a ministerial job. who opposed the cards. The Government are short of Scottish talent. Actually, There is no doubt that there has been a sea change in they are short of talent, and he is both Scottish and public opinion in recent years, encouraged not only by talented. He should certainly be sitting on the Treasury parties in the House but by a genuine campaign across Bench. He represents the nationalistic passions of Scotland, the country against the menace of ID cards and the the country where I was born and where an awful lot of national identity register. Yet the former Government my family still live. did not listen to that campaign or to members of my I wish that new Labour had been the inspiration for party, the Liberal Democrats or the nationalist parties. ID cards, but it was not. The Netherlands, Germany, There was a grand coalition against the proposals, but Spain and France all have them. They are a European still they pressed ahead. Worse than that, to use another idea, but in today’s evolving political landscape it is military metaphor, they laid booby trap after booby always important to hear the nationalist rant against trap to make it as difficult as possible for people to European practice. That is another reason why the hon. withdraw from the scheme. That is where the new clause Gentleman may find himself much happier sitting on fails the test that we should set it. the Government Benches. Although I appreciate the spirit behind the proposal, I turn to the new clause itself, which is not about the there is no doubt that members of the public who chose origins and use of ID cards, or about whether they were to buy an identity card would, by definition, have been in the manifesto that the British people supported, just aware of the raging debate about that contentious issue. as they handsomely supported the party opposed to AV I have to say to them, caveat emptor—let the buyer and defeated the one in favour of it. It is simply about beware. When buying the card, they knew that it was whether the state can confiscate money. The hon. my party’s stated intention to take immediate steps to Gentleman is wrong; it was not taxpayers’ money that end the scheme, and that other parties were saying paid for my ID card but a £30 cheque or credit card exactly the same thing. The message was loud and clear. payment from my miserable pre-Independent Parliamentary The situation is rather like the one 13 years ago, when Standards Authority salary. I am not sure whether it is a the Labour Government came to office. They made claimable expense. As euro-waffler-in-chief, I do an their position clear about certain policies, for example awful lot of travel in Europe, but I am not sure whether promising an end to tax credits for people on private I could put in a claim for an ID card. health schemes. We are not here to debate that now, but it is a parallel point. Labour was elected to office The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): Don’t overwhelmingly and carried out its policy, as it was even think about it. entitled to do. The electorate were given a clear message, and the late Government did not renege upon their Mr MacShane: The Minister is quite right. However, promise. They pressed ahead based upon the mandate it was my money that paid for my ID card, and the state that they had received. Although we can debate the has no right to confiscate my money. If it took a house merits of that decision, it was their prerogative. Now, or land from me by compulsory purchase, it would have 13 years later, we are in a similar position. We have a to pay the due sum. 927 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 928

Mr Burley: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Guy Opperman: I shall not detain the House long, his decision to buy an ID card, whether or not he but the Bill has rightly been described as a long march. intended to claim the money back, was entirely a free The previous Government’s policy began years ago as a choice? He had a choice whether to buy one, and he proposal for a compulsory scheme, forcing ID cards on chose to do so. These are the consequences. individuals. As a result, there was tremendous opposition. It is surely a rare day when the Conservative and Mr MacShane: I am terribly sorry, but I obtained my Liberal coalition is supported by Justice and other ID card and paid my £30. The new Government are individuals and organisations that promote civil liberties. rightly seeking to confiscate it, but they owe me modest The Government, having decided that the scheme compensation for doing so. I would never be allowed, would be compulsory, indicated in the previous Parliament under your stern tutelage, Mr Deputy Speaker, to accuse that the scheme would be voluntary. I confess that my the Ministers of misleading the House or not being vast research was not into answering the question whether straight with us, but may I say that they are being a right schemes in other parts of Europe are compulsory rather pair of tea leaves at the moment? They are going to steal than voluntary, which the right hon. Member for my money and not hand it back. [Interruption.] I mean Rotherham (Mr MacShane) raised. However, the UK that they are fond of tea and coffee. A very sound scheme was voluntary and people signed up it. principle of British law is that if the state changes regulations and confiscates an individual’s property that The 2006 Act wound its way tortuously through the was bought in good faith, forms of compensation are House, slowly but surely, faltering at every step, like normally paid. some relic of yesteryear, as the previous Government That is not just my view but that of a distinguished attempted to demonstrate tremendous moral fibre in Conservative adviser, Lord Levene, who I believe the some shape or form. They were in the position of Prime Minister has hired to advise him on reducing having to carry the measure, and the scheme eventually defence expenditure, or perhaps more accurately to became voluntary.As soon as the scheme became voluntary, achieve smarter procurement in defence, which is his the argument in favour of repayment fell away. People speciality. He wrote a very cross letter to The Times, were not obliged to sign up for an ID card, and could about which we later had a very nice telephone conversation, instead rely on their passports, driving licences or alternative in which he said that it was quite preposterous that documentation. having bought his identity card in good faith, he should The reality is that people voluntarily signed up to pay now have it confiscated without any compensation. I for an ID card. They were not forced to sign up, so the bow to Lord Levene as a banker, a man of affairs, a Government’s approach must be dramatically different. business leader and a distinguished Government adviser, The decision to sign up is for the individual, and the and shelter behind his outrage. Frankly, it does not legislation states that if they do not want to sign up, matter if we are talking about one person or 14 million they do not have to do so. It is not incumbent on the people. I put it to the hon. Member for Perth and North state, at this or at any other stage, to pay compensation. Perthshire that the Government could do themselves no end of good by accepting the new clause, because Mr MacShane: Let me ask the hon. Gentleman a 14,000 or 15,000 people, in good faith, took out ID question so I can get this clear: if he voluntarily buys a cards—[Interruption.] Sorry, 11,000 people paid money house and the council comes along and takes it off him, for cards and others got them free. They have used the is he saying that the council does not have to pay cards for three months, so compensation could be made compensation? pro rata. It would do the Government no harm—they have sent letters to Lord Levene and me, but they will be Guy Opperman: A variety of things could happen in sending more—to put a little cheque in the post for that situation, not least suing the council. I can assure those people. the right hon. Gentleman that various people who gave evidence to the Public Bill Committee indicated that Damian Green: The right hon. Gentleman was in they might contemplate suing the Government. People danger of coming close to a serious point, and I thought could sue the council if they were put in that position. it deserved to be dealt with. I am sure he has read the Bill and the Identity Cards Act 2006 carefully, so he will Pete Wishart: That is not so much the key point as be aware that the Government of whom he was such a the context of such decisions. When lots of people are distinguished and eloquent supporter for so many years saying, “Do not buy this because we are going scrap it,” wrote the legislation so that the ID card, which he says people are making an informed decision. If they choose is to be confiscated, is not his property. The ID card has to buy voluntarily an ID card, that is surely up to them. always been the property of the state, so he cannot run the argument that his property will be confiscated. Guy Opperman rose— Mr MacShane: I am grateful for that hair-splitting point. My passport remains the property of the state, Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): Will my but the plain fact is that I and 11,000 others paid £30. hon. Friend give way? That is not a lot of money, but it was paid in good faith. New clause 2, gently and in a friendly way—there will Guy Opperman: Of course. be other opportunities to make similar points—says that there should be polite compensation. That is a Michael Ellis: To continue the example of the house long-established principle of British democratic practice. sale, an individual buying a house despite knowing that We are talking peanuts, so the Government would do there is something wrong with it, such as subsidence, is themselves no harm at all if they erred gently on the the same as the right hon. Member for Rotherham side of generosity. (Mr MacShane) in respect of his ID card. 929 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 930

Guy Opperman: The position has been explained and 3pm I am sure that it is fully comprehended. We should not This is a relatively small issue, and we could go too detain ourselves on the £30 any further in the House. far on it, but the people who bought ID cards did so in Liberty and Justice support our point of view. good faith— Meg Hillier: Liberty is also in favour of removing ID Mr MacShane: It is a narrow point, but it is an cards for foreign nationals, or biometric identity documents, important point. Since 1945, there have been many or whatever people wish to call them. Does the hon. elections—although perhaps not recently—in which a Gentleman agree with Liberty? Is he aware that surveys party has said that if elected it would nationalise a revealed that the Identity and Passport Service is one of private industry. The owners of the shares in that the most trusted public bodies in the country? That industry—even if the shares amount to £20 and were trust is being breached by the Government’s decision. bought on the day of the election—always received due All we are saying to the Government is, “Be fair to compensation. We do not confiscate without some those who bought an ID card.” Frankly, the idea that compensation. That is a very important point of British everybody read all the manifestos, as some hon. Members democracy. are saying, rather overrates their importance, and suggests that hon. Members are not in touch with the many people who do not follow politics and daily read manifestos Steve McCabe: There is a principle here, and that is . my point. People bought these cards in good faith. It is all very well for other hon. Members to say that it was Guy Opperman rose— clear that if the election results went a certain way they would be abolished, but everyone—including the hon. Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. May I remind the hon. Members for Hexham (Guy Opperman), for South Gentleman that the debate is quite tight and that he Swindon (Mr Buckland) and indeed for Perth and should speak to the new clause? He should not draw North Perthshire (Pete Wishart)—must remember that Members into other areas. no one won the last election. The Conservatives did not convince the electorate of the merits of their manifesto, Guy Opperman: I apologise, Mr Deputy Speaker, if I nor did the coalition partners. That is why we have a have in any way drawn Members into other areas. coalition. The election result was not clear cut and no The short answer to the hon. Lady is to ask her this single party succeeded in convincing the electorate that question: if the ID cards satisfaction survey showed they had a right to govern by themselves. In that context, that they were so popular, why did so few people sign it would be reasonable to show a bit of humility in the up? Fewer than 15,000 signed up, and several thousand proposals the Government make. did not have to pay. I have no objection to the Government choosing to abolish ID cards, but I do object to them seeking to Damian Green: The hon. Member for Hackney South penalise and punish those who bought cards in good and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) inadvertently misled the faith. The electorate will remember all these grand House by saying that Liberty is against biometric residence speeches saying that those people do not count for permits. I have Liberty’s briefing for today’s debate. It anything and the derogatory remarks—although I am states that— sure that they were made in jest—of the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire. Hon. Members should Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I do not think that the recognise that those people acted in good faith and it is permits are part of the debate, and we are being drawn not appropriate to penalise them. into other areas. I am sure that Mr Opperman would like to continue his speech. We do not want to make a massive deal of this, but the Minister has had quite a lot of time to think about Guy Opperman: I do not intend to go any further on it. We are talking about a relatively modest amount of that point. My final point is that we should not sign up money, but the precedent it would set is very important. to proposed new clause 2. If the precedent is set that people will be punished if, after having acted in good faith by doing something Steve McCabe: I, too, do not want to take too long that the Government of the day encouraged, it will on new clause 2 and in speaking to amendment 8. I cause paralysis in many other areas. enjoyed the contribution of the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart). I am going to try Mr Burley: The hon. Gentleman said that this proposal to find out who the 10 people in Scotland who want to would cost a relatively modest amount, but does he join his fan club are, and I will do anything I can to put have any idea how much it would be? The current cost them in contact with him. of maintaining the present system, as we know from I want to acknowledge that there is one area of Committee, would be £50 million to £60 million over agreement. The Lib Dem and Conservative parties both 10 years. Other hon. Members have suggested migrating went into the election on a promise to abolish identity the data to the Passport Service, but I have no idea what cards, and we cannot really find fault with that. Of that alternative proposal would cost. Does the hon. course, the Lib Dems also promised thousands of extra Gentleman know what the cost of maintaining the policemen, and I do not know where that figures in the system for 11,000 people would be? current arrangements. However, if people are going to pray in aid that their manifesto commitment is the great Steve McCabe: Fortunately, I do not suffer from the justification, we need a total explanation. As far the Lib voodoo economics of Conservative Members, so I do Dems are concerned, their justifications amount to not have a clue where the hon. Gentleman gets the nothing. figure of £50 million or £60 million. We are saying that 931 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 932 there should be a £30 discount when the person who I do not want to push the new clause to a vote, but is currently holds a card next applies for a passport. the Minister able to tell us today how he will comply Under whichever education system hon. Members operate, with the requirements of clause 3? If not, will he agree they should be able to work the figure out for themselves. to come back to the Chamber and report what has I like and respect the Minister and I trust what he happened? The last thing that I want to do is be back says, but clause 3 states that the information on the here at some point in the future accusing Ministers of national identity register will be destroyed. It is fair to failing to comply with their own legislation. say that when this was discussed in Committee his knowledge of the technical detail of the register was Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): It is a pleasure, as almost as good as mine, and neither of us is likely to get always, to follow the hon. Member for Birmingham, a job with Bill Gates any time soon. We know from the Selly Oak (Steve McCabe). I have done it so often he information that was presented to the Committee that might want a restraining order at some stage. there is some doubt in Government and in Government I understand the argument for why the people who organisations about what is meant by the national identity foolishly bought an ID card should get some register. We cannot pass legislation in good faith and compensation—[Interruption.] I am not saying I support then discover that it cannot be implemented because the that argument, but I can see its logic. However, I struggle Minister has been asked to do something that he is not to see the logic behind the arguments for new clauses 2 technically capable of doing. and 4, one of which would, if I am right, see the existing I make this point for two reasons. First, since the cards be valid for nearly another 10 years. The other election, my colleagues and I have listened to the would provide for a discount, at some point during grandstanding from the Government Benches about those 10 years, if someone applied for a new passport. I their civil libertarian credentials. That will work in the struggle to see, however, how having ID cards that are early months of government, when it is easy to run still valid in nine years and nine months would give around saying that they are against speed cameras or those holding them the advantages they sought when DNA testing, but it will not work when they face they paid for them. Where would those ID cards be constituents who have suffered and want to know why accepted as a proven form of identity? What is the risk the Government are not on their side—[Interruption.] that people could forge them? Would people struggle to If the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire tell the difference, if they did? Would people be able to wants to come to the defence of his new-found friends travel around the EU using an ID card instead of a again, I will give way. passport? I struggle to see how that would happen, and it would open up the door to a manner of identity fraud different from what we already have, so I cannot vote to Pete Wishart: I just wanted to give the hon. Gentleman keep them in place for the next 10 years. an opportunity to say whether he is in line with the thinking of the right hon. Member for Doncaster North The idea of credit against a passport is a better one, (Edward Miliband), who has said that the previous but again we would have the problem of having to keep Government were too draconian on civil liberties. Is the data for all that period. We would also have the that an admission that the hon. Gentleman recognises? problem of how to process that data. I presume that the easiest way would be that, when a person applied for a passport, they would have to send in their ID card to Steve McCabe: Let me be blunt. I may find myself prove that they actually had one in the first place. loyally serving my right hon. Friend the Member for Again, however, how would we deal with people who Doncaster North (Edward Miliband)—who knows—but had changed their names, lost their ID card or found it I am not against ID cards. Nor would I say that the useless for eight years until their passport renewal came previous Government, in the circumstances with which round and had to dig it out from the bottom of a draw we had to deal, were draconian. We took the difficult somewhere? There would also be the risk that people decisions that were necessary, and there will come a might try to create fraudulent cards, meaning that someone time when Ministers in this Government have to come would have to go back to the original list of people with to the House to tell us what they are having to do to ID cards for proof. And how would we handle the fact protect the public because of a deterioration in our that not everyone actually had paid for their card? I security situation. It is easy to grandstand now, but accept that the proposal provides for that, but it means tomorrow always comes—and what is said now may that someone would need a record of who had paid for come back to haunt you. their card and who had got theirs free. It is all very well painting a bleak picture of the With respect, therefore, I cannot see how we can vote previous Government, but can the Minister tell us today for either of the two solutions. There is no way I can how the information contained on the national identity vote for either. Given some of the concerns raised by register will be destroyed? He will know that in the Opposition Members about the legal issues involved in evidence given to the Committee the chief executive of scrapping ID cards without compensation, I would be the UK Border Agency was not entirely clear what the grateful if the Minister could repeat the assurance he national identity register was. Some people thought that gave us in Committee that the Government had received it was to do with facial geometry, some thought it was solid legal advice that it is legal and will not be overturned not. Some people thought that it was to do with a at huge cost to the taxpayer resulting from the court Sagem algorithm, whatever that is, and others thought proceedings subsequent to this process. that it was to do with the Cogent algorithm. One person thought that it was “co-ordinated” and another said Julie Hilling: Hon. Members on both sides have been that it is not a box with everyone’s name in it—I think extremely rude to constituents of mine who have written we know that much. to me about how they bought an ID card in good faith. 933 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 934

[Julie Hilling] Catherine McKinnell: Does my hon. Friend agree that many of the constituents who have written to us I assume that a lot of Members in the Chamber today and who we deal with, and who are concerned about were not part of the pilot programme in which constituents not receiving any compensation, do not follow avidly were able to buy ID cards. Had they been, perhaps they the words of a shadow ministerial team? Largely, they would also be speaking up on behalf of those constituents are probably not interested in the pronunciations of a who bought ID cards but will not now get a refund. shadow ministerial team, but are busy trying to survive Those who have written to me are mainly pensioners day to day on a state pension, to make ends meet, to get and on a low income. They decided that they were only their shopping and to look after their grandchildren. going to be travelling as far as Europe and that therefore They are not avidly following the intricacies of the an ID card was a good value alternative to paying the position of the shadow ministerial team. full amount for a full passport. These people are taxpayers. Julie Hilling: I thank my hon. Friend for making that Michael Ellis: May I ask how many of her constituents point, because I agree with her absolutely. wrote to her about this? If someone buys a service from the Government, Steve McCabe: Every vote counts! whatever their colour, they would expect their Government to continue to provide that service, and if they did not Julie Hilling: Especially in a marginal. continue to do so, they would expect to be compensated. I have received letters from about a dozen people in That is the major point. my constituency, and as I say, they are on low incomes and are taxpayers. Each of them entered into a contract Ms Louise Bagshawe (Corby) (Con): I thank the hon. with their Government saying, “I will purchase an ID Lady for being so generous in giving way. I put it to her card, and for that I will have the benefit of travel within that her constituents ought to be complaining to the Europe and other benefits, such as proof of identity, for Labour party, which was in Government at the time, 10 years.” It is not unreasonable for those constituents because it was made clear to them that we would not be to expect either to get their money back or to receive continuing with this scheme. The fault for the costs that credit for it. her constituents have borne should rightly be laid with Labour Members and the Labour Front-Bench team. Is Nigel Mills: Will the hon. Lady confirm my that not true? understanding that those constituents will already have had a passport that they can use to travel to the same Julie Hilling: The hon. Lady does not quite understand places? that my party, the loyal Opposition, does not have the power to make payments. If only we did. If only we had 3.15 pm the power to say to those who bought identity cards, Julie Hilling: I will happily answer that question. The “We will reimburse this money.” only people who prior to the election could get an ID card were those whose passport had recently expired. Mr MacShane: Can we nail this extraordinary new They were mainly elderly people who made a decision constitutional doctrine that because a party thinks it is not to travel further than Europe, and they were mainly going to win an election, everything should come to a people who could not afford, or found it difficult to dead halt before the people have voted? I saw the afford, the full cost of a passport. shadow Home Secretary at the Great Eastern Tandoori Several Members have talked about how the message restaurant in Pimlico the day after the election, except was loud and clear that the ID cards would disappear. he was not to become the Home Secretary. Should he My constituents are not fortune-tellers and could not receive compensation? We really have to stop this nonsense. say what the outcome of the election would be. In Power might have changed hands, but we should still actual fact, they made their views clear by returning a accept responsibility and pay the compensation. Labour MP, so it is insulting to them to say that they should have expected the ID cards to disappear. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Members are getting carried away with interventions, and we Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): In all ought to stick to the point. Mr MacShane should know fairness, the hon. Lady should concede that it was better. almost unprecedented in all the polices taken through by the Labour Government for a break clause to be Julie Hilling: I remain absolutely convinced that my flagged up by the then shadow Home Secretary and constituents deserve fair treatment. They deserve either others. That sent a very strong signal to commercial to have the money refunded—sadly, this mean-spirited organisations that the current Government would not Bill does not allow that to happen—or for their identity continue with the ID cards programme. I am not saying cards to continue, although I accept that this might be that all her constituents will be reading the trade press, difficult. The easiest thing would be to allow them or even the quality press, but it was clear that both the £30 credit towards a passport. Liberal Democrats and the Conservative party had made manifesto commitments to abolish ID cards. People have talked about alternative means of identification, but I wonder whether those hon. Members Julie Hilling: My constituents could not have foreseen who are present know how much they cost. All those at that point that there would be a Con-Dem coalition. alternative means of identification cost more than the How could they have known what would be in the identity card. Those who are disabled—for instance, coalition agreement, especially given that it does not those with a visual disability or other conditions—cannot bear much resemblance to the manifestos? get a driving licence; and indeed, if someone was never 935 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 936 going to drive, why would they apply for one? However, Mr Winnick: As for the previous Government, obviously a driving licence is one of the few photographic means there was controversy among Labour Members on the of identification that we have in this country. The subject—it would have been odd if that were not so—but identity card was therefore valuable a tool with which does my right hon. Friend not agree that the original people could prove their identity, which is becoming idea for identity cards came from Michael Howard, increasingly important and difficult to do nowadays. when he was the Home Secretary in, of course, a Let me finish by saying that I believe that the Bill is Conservative Administration? mean-spirited. The Government should give £30 credit to those affected, and I very much hope that hon. Keith Vaz: I cannot say for certain, but my hon. Members will vote for that later. Friend is wiser and has been in this House for longer than me, so if he quotes Michael Howard from a few years ago, I accept what he says. Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I have known you long enough to know that when you frown in the way Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I certainly that you have, Mr Deputy Speaker, you wish and expect agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall short speeches from hon. Members. I therefore intend North (Mr Winnick): Michael Howard had a proposal to be brief. for something called the smart card. He tried to get it I came into the Chamber mindful of the Opposition through this House, but he could not do so. amendment and with a view to supporting the proposal to pay compensation to those who have taken out Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Let voluntary cards. However, I have listened to what hon. me remind hon. Members that we are discussing new Members have said, including the thoughtful speech by clause 2. These points are not relevant. I am sure that the hon. Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman). It is you will wish to return to the new clause, Mr Vaz. probably right that people should have been cautious in taking out a voluntary card, knowing that the policy Keith Vaz: Unfortunately I did not know about those was not carried in all parts of the House. However, it points until they were made. Had I known that they would have been better for the Government to pay the would be raised, I would not have given way. However, money back as a good-will gesture than for us to be as you say, Mr Deputy Speaker, this is not a debate fighting about £30 multiplied by 11,000 on the Floor of about Lord Howard; it is a debate about new clause 2. the House. I understand that the principle is important, Although I came into the Chamber wanting to support and I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton those on my Front Bench—and I still want to, because I West (Julie Hilling) that the 12 constituents and others have great respect for my hon. Friend the Member for who may have written to her are obviously deeply Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier), who was concerned. Perhaps £30 is not a lot to some people, but a superb Minister, appearing many times before the it is certainly a great deal to the kinds of constituents Home Affairs Committee on identity issues, including whom she mentioned. the cost of identity cards and their implementation—I am probably minded to abstain if there is a vote. Catherine McKinnell: Just to clarify whether £30 is a I understand that the Minister has written significant amount, in fact, we are not talking about to—[Interruption.] Let me say to my right hon. Friend £30; we are talking about the additional £50 that will be the Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane), for whom required to get another valid form of identification. An I have enormous respect and affection, that I do not extra £50, making £80 in total, is a lot of money for think that what is proposed is the equivalent of the some people, and particularly for pensioners, who have nationalisation of British Steel, with the Government to save for some time to afford it. moving in to take away somebody else’s property, including his own. As the Minister said, the card that my right Keith Vaz: I agree with my hon. Friend: it is a lot of hon. Friend is waving before me is the property of the money for some people, but it is not clear whether there Government. However, that is a side issue. I understand is a huge point of principle, based as it is on the fact that that when he makes his point, he comes from the steel people were clear that identity cards were an absolutely capital of Britain, but we are not talking about the partisan policy on the part of the previous Government. nationalisation of British Steel. Only my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall South— Mr MacShane: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend— for whom I worked as a Parliamentary Private Secretary Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Walsall for many happy years—for giving way. I would be quite North—the hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie happy to concede the financial point if the Government Vaz) is your sister. were prepared to cut a deal and let me keep the card until it expired. That seems quite reasonable, because it Keith Vaz: I thank my hon. Friend for reminding is a European card. Every time I have used it to go me—I think I just about know the difference between through airports in the past three months, people have my sister and my hon. Friend, who was so often the said, “Ooh, that’s a good idea! The Brits are becoming conscience of the Select Committee on Home Affairs like us.” Well, thanks to the coalition, now we are not. when it considered the issue in the previous Parliament. We accepted that the previous Government had an Keith Vaz: Let me say to my right hon. Friend, the absolute right to put through their legislation on ID former Minister for Europe— cards. It was only my hon. Friend who reminded the Committee on so many occasions that he thought that Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): We have a set of the policy was wrong. former Ministers for Europe in the Chamber. 937 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 938

Keith Vaz: Indeed. Let me say to my right hon. Friend Mr Jackson: That goes without saying. the Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) that he is I am quite fond of the hon. Member for Birmingham, the last person who needs an identity card to get into Selly Oak (Steve McCabe), but he rather over-egged the France. He is probably the only former Minister for pudding. Let us remember that it was his Government Europe to be fluent in half a dozen European languages. who gave us 90-day detention without trial. In 2005, His very face is sufficient to get him into the European they told us that it was imperative that we force through Union. that measure, disregarding hundreds of years of close Mr MacShane: But we are in the European Union. attention to civil liberty and due process. They were then humiliated in an unprecedented vote—given that Keith Vaz: I meant the mainland European Union. they had a 66-seat majority—and the proposal went Anyway, before this becomes a debate about the down to 42 days. European Union, let me say that I shall abstain on new clause 2. However, I am attracted to amendment 8, Mr Winnick: The hon. Gentleman is wrong. The which stands in the name of my hon. Friends the previous Government did not give us 90 days. That Members for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) proposal was defeated by the House of Commons. and for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Mr Jackson: It was indeed defeated, by one vote, Phillipson), and not just because they are distinguished because of the good sense of many of the hon. Gentleman’s members of the Home Affairs Committee, as the hon. colleagues on the then Government’s side who saw that Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) is, but because it would not be sensible to traduce the British traditions there is a lot of merit in what they say. The Minister of liberty and fairness on the back of a scare campaign should take amendment 8 seriously. I do not know from some people who were taking an authoritarian, whether my hon. Friends will push it to a vote, but the draconian approach. To be fair and open-minded, as I destruction of the data is an important issue. aspire to be, I should say that the debate went on in my When I raised this matter on the Floor of the House, own party as well. Some Conservatives took the view following the Home Secretary’s announcement that ID that we should be tough on law and order, and that we cards were to be abolished, either she or the Minister—I should do the right thing and support the then Prime cannot be sure which—said that there would be a huge Minister. A small number of my colleagues voted for event in which all the data would be destroyed. I think that proposal. I must not perambulate too far from the that it was said, perhaps playfully, that there would be a new clause that we are debating, but we must bear in big bonfire, and that Members of the House would be mind that context as we listen to Labour Members’ invited to attend such an event. I know that that was arguments about civil liberties today. The hon. Member meant in jest, but this is a serious point. for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) was I support what the Government are doing to remove absolutely right to say that, until that point, there had the names of innocent people from the database. That is been a fine tradition in the Labour party of support for absolutely a move in the right direction. The hon. civil liberties. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) asked whether the previous Government had lost their Steve McCabe: I want to ask the hon. Gentleman, way on civil liberties issues, and I would say that we did whom I respect, whether the best symbol of a Government’s a little, partly because of a lack of scrutiny by this faith in civil liberties is their support for a phone hacker House, rather than through any intent on the part of in No. 10 and a Minister who spies on his own colleagues the Government. We should have been better at scrutinising and friends— legislation. I hope that, when the Minister responds, he will give Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. The us a clear statement on how the data are to be destroyed. hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) should My hon. Friends who have tabled amendment 8 have carry on with the debate on the new clause. proposed a time limit of four months, within which a statement must be made to the House. I do not believe Mr Jackson: I shall defer to the good sense of the for one moment that that is an unreasonable request. I Deputy Speaker and pass over those issues. I am mindful, hope that the Minister will give my hon. Friends the of course, that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly assurances that they seek. This is not a huge issue, but it Oak has worked in the Whips Office, and that Whips goes to the heart of what the coalition Government say are a bit more bare-knuckled in debates than some that they are going to do with these data. We must not others. I shall move swiftly on. keep the data unless it is absolutely necessary to do so, I want to talk about authority and establishing one’s and I hope that he will give some comfort to my hon. policies before an election. I made the point to the hon. Friends, and an assurance that the data will be destroyed Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) that— within four months. Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. We are discussing new 3.30 pm clause 2, and the hon. Gentleman must speak to that.

Mr Stewart Jackson: It is always a pleasure to follow Mr Jackson: By a circuitous route, Mr Deputy Speaker, the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), I shall speak to that new clause— although he lapsed from his usual urbanity and eloquence when he did not recognise the difference between his Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. It might be helpful to the charming sister and the hon. Member for Walsall North hon. Gentleman to know that he can talk about these (Mr Winnick)— matters on Third Reading, if that is the route that he wishes to take. If he could just speak to new clause 2 Mr Winnick: Who is also quite charming. now, that would be much better. 939 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 940

Mr Jackson: I shall speak specifically to the proposal weak, mean and, most important of all, costly to the about compensation, Mr Deputy Speaker. Please forgive taxpayer. In Committee, the Minister for Immigration me if I meandered somewhat. stated that he was committed to abolishing identity There is, of course, precedent for a party being elected, cards putting a programme forward and sticking to its manifesto “because it was—and, until the Bill is enacted, is—an expensive commitments without paying compensation, even at a and misguided scheme.”––[Official Report, Identity Documents modest level. For instance, one has to think only of the Public Bill Committee, 1 July 2010; c. 43.] assisted places scheme, a windfall tax on utilities or the That assertion is, I contend, completely wrong and national minimum wage—they all had fiscal ramifications, misguided. The ID card scheme will become more but the Conservative party in opposition did not insist expensive as soon as the Bill is enacted because the that there was any necessity to make specific compensation expenditure has already been incurred in setting up the to specific groups. scheme—on infrastructure, computer software and so forth. Furthermore, recovering that money relies on Steve McCabe: On a minor point, this new clause is allowing the ID card scheme to continue. Conservative not asking for compensation per se; it asks for a Members should remember that the expenditure was reimbursement of £30 only for those who subsequently incurred subsequent to a manifesto commitment by the apply for a passport. It is designed to right a wrong; it is previous Labour Government. not a general request for compensation. I do not want to dwell on the motives behind the Bill, and I suspect that the motives of Liberal Democrats are Mr Jackson: The substantive general point, which completely different from those of Conservative supporters. the hon. Gentleman does not want to concede, is that It is clear, however, that Conservative Members base what is happening is a direct result of a new Government their opposition to the ID card proposals on a false who with their coalition partner have a mandate to take premise. a decision that has fiscal ramifications through new legislation. My point is that the precedent has been set Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): I assure in the past for new legislation having financial ramifications; the hon. Gentleman that those who write to me in my it will inevitably affect some groups of taxpayers and constituency are asking me to scrap the ID legislation voters, but the Government will not see fit to compensate as quickly as possible, purely on the grounds of civil them in a particular way, even on a modest scale. liberties. I find it astonishing that there can be any Of course it is regrettable that some of the constituents debate about this for much longer. Indeed, a number of of the hon. Member for Bolton West will be in a people have suggested that we should wind up the difficult position as a result of the decisions made, but I debate immediately, although obviously a good many come back to the point that the two parties that form Members want to continue it. I have not received a this Government won 60% of the vote on an unequivocal single letter asking me— commitment to abolish identity cards, whereas the party that was unequivocally in favour of them comprehensively Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. The lost the election on 6 May. Although only a modest hon. Lady’s intervention is far too wide of what we are amount of money is involved, the amendment is discussing at the moment. inappropriate, particularly during a time of less than benign financial circumstances when we need to reduce Grahame M. Morris: I do not think that the the deficit. Government’s arguments have been effective. Aspects of the scheme deserve to be retained, and they are Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): Thank you, embodied in the new clauses and amendments. Clause 2 Mr Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to contribute to states: the debate. “All ID cards that are valid immediately before that day are to Labour Members fully understand that repealing the be treated as cancelled by the Secretary of State at the end of the Identity Cards Act 2006 and scrapping ID cards was a period of one month beginning with that day.” manifesto pledge of both the Conservative and the In Committee, the Minister stated proudly that this was Liberal Democrat parties and that they are fulfilling a the Government’s first Bill. I am astonished that he can pledge to the electorate on this issue. In fact, I think this be pleased with himself, given that this first Bill from is one of the few actions taken by the coalition Government the new Government breaks a contract that was established that can claim at least some sort of mandate from the between citizen and state. As was pointed out by my public. I add, however, that Labour was elected in 2005 hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling), with a manifesto pledge that stated: people put their faith in the Government and bought “We will introduce ID cards, including biometric data like ID cards. They entered into that contract on a voluntary fingerprints, backed up by a national register and rolling out basis—there was no element of compulsion—and I initially on a voluntary basis as people renew their passports.” believe that they have been let down sorely and spitefully That was the manifesto basis on which the decisions by the Bill and the Government. The Government’s were made. behaviour is illogical, unfair and frankly unnecessary. The current Government have taken the scheme in its Hon. Members have suggested various reasons why infancy and killed it off before it has even had a chance people may have decided to invest in ID cards. The need to prove itself—in terms of finance, security, issues of to protect their identities must have been a major concern, identity theft, protection and, indeed, popularity, or as identity theft is a huge problem which costs the any other measure of its worth. As we learned in economy billions of pounds and causes individuals Committee, the Government have their arguments, but untold stress and suffering. They may simply have wanted in my view their reasons for revoking ID cards are a more versatile method of identification—Labour 941 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 942

[Grahame M. Morris] but for a great many people, including many of my constituents, it is a considerable amount of money. Members have given some excellent examples of that—or There has been some discussion of why individuals on even a proof of age. Whatever their reasons, they entered low incomes might have chosen to spend such a sum on into a contract, and that contract should be honoured, an ID card, and whether many did so. We must consider but the coalition Government are tearing it up, and the fact that alternative forms of identification are more people who acted in good faith can justifiably feel let expensive—for example, a provisional driving licence is down. an accepted form of ID commonly used by younger Members on the Government Benches have argued people as proof of age and it costs £50. There is a cost that it might have been reasonable for people to expect reason that led some people voluntarily to choose to ID cards to be scrapped if the Tories won power. That buy an ID card, therefore. People on lower incomes applies to the Liberal Democrats as well, as it was in who needed to prove their age would naturally be their manifesto. But should we really be sending the inclined to opt for an ID card, but whether the person public the message that they should not take too much who bought the card was on a low income or a millionaire notice of what the current Government say, because the is, in fact, irrelevant because the behaviour of this next Government may say something different? That is Government in not addressing the unfairness and injustice a dangerous message to send. contained in the Bill is deplorable. I cannot see why the cards that have already been Pete Wishart: I know that the hon. Gentleman is issued cannot in some way remain valid until their already a very assiduous constituency Member of expiry date. The parties in the coalition Government Parliament. When constituents asked me about ID cards have only a handful of policies on which they truly before the last election, I gave them clear advice: I agree and I accept that not continuing with the ID card advised them not to obtain ID cards, because they were is among them, but not enough care has been given to too controversial and might be rescinded. What would reimbursing cardholders or to making some attempt to the hon. Gentleman have said if a constituent had maintain already issued cards, perhaps with some reduced asked his advice about ID cards, given that they were so functionality. There remains a database for passports, contentious? and this card could perhaps, at least in some way, Grahame M. Morris: That is dangerous territory, remain an authenticated identification document. Did which we explored earlier today and in Committee. If the Minister seek any advice on possible functions for that principle is to be applied to what a Government the already issued cards, or was he content just to allow may do, should it be applied to nationalisation without them to fall? There seems to me to be no reason why the compensation? Is that the logic of the argument? cards cannot remain valid until the expiry date. The decision to terminate existing and operational The Government are abandoning ID cards without ID cards one month after Royal Assent—I assume that any concern for the expenditure that has already been the Bill will be passed today—with no compensation for incurred by the taxpayer or any consideration for current those who have purchased cards is not only shameful, ID cardholders, and with little thought for the future of but a travesty. I mentioned that Labour had made a British passport security and the use of biometric data. manifesto pledge to the public, and that the public had The Minister has had every opportunity to address the returned Labour to government in 2005. We implemented issues Opposition Members raised in Committee, and it a scheme allowing a citizen to receive, for a £30 fee, a is a shame that he was unable to work with us, at least to card which would expire in 10 years. For the current try to improve some aspects of the Bill. Government to come to office and turn that system on its head without consideration for those who participated Damian Green: We have heard a festival of synthetic in the scheme on a voluntary basis, and had handed indignation from Labour Members over the past hour over their money in good faith, strikes me as a complete or so. We know they do not mean it because they did dereliction of duty which sets a dangerous precedent for not even vote against the Bill on Second Reading, so the future. they do not oppose it very hard. They are scratching around to find ways to express some opposition. 3.45 pm As has been amply illustrated by the hon. Member Guy Opperman: The hon. Gentleman talks about this for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), there being a dereliction of duty and so forth, but this is a are, however, some glimmers of light in the authoritarian scheme costing billions of pounds for barely 12,000 dark that was the Labour Government. One or two of people that was trotted out in circumstances where the leadership candidates, including the right hon. Member there was no prospect of it being taken up. for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), have said the previous Government were wrong about ID cards. The Grahame M. Morris: The scheme is in its infancy right hon. Gentleman says he thinks his party should and, essentially, it was only marketed in two areas— move on from that idea. As that has been stated several Manchester and London. It would have been rolled out times during the debate, I feel it is only fair also to further and then, presumably, have had much greater record— appeal. There is an interesting contradiction: the big corporate interests who were involved in this scheme Steve McCabe: Will the Minister give way? were paid compensation, but no recompense is to be made to ordinary citizens who paid £30 for a card. Damian Green: I will in a moment, after I have paid My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon tribute to the hon. Gentleman’s colleague, the hon. Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) mentioned that Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington £30 figure. It may seem a trifling sum to some Members, (Ms Abbott), who has consistently been against identity 943 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 944 cards. As we are mentioning the Labour party leadership whether he should have claimed for his ID card on candidates who are virtuous in this regard, I should expenses. I would have thought that, at the time, that mention her too, because no Labour Member did. would have been a seriously terrible idea. The only exception made on this flat fee of £30 that Steve McCabe: I hate to interrupt the Minister when these allegedly struggling people were paying was for he is in such fine flow, but I just want to suggest to him those who were in employment and working at one of that he has misunderstood our position. This is not the airports, where the then Government were anxious synthetic indignation and nobody on our side is rejecting to foist the scheme on people in its early days. Anyone the Government’s right to abolish ID cards—in fact, a in that position would have been one of the 3,000 or so number of us have acknowledged it. We are objecting to who were given a card free of charge. Those 3,000 lucky the mean-minded attitude that sets out to punish the people—all, by definition in full-time employment— relatively small number of people who bought ID cards represent almost 20% of those to whom any card was in good faith. ever issued. Of course, those cards were paid for by the taxpayer, so when one actually looks behind the indignation Damian Green: The hon. Gentleman made that point, expressed by Labour Members, one does not find any with characteristic eloquence, in his speech, and I will substantial argument on this, which they have made the address it shortly. I am pleased to report to the House main point of their attack on this Bill. that, as those who sat through the Committee stage will The Government inherited an ID card scheme that be aware, the Labour party has come up with no new has found very little favour with the public. That is a ideas to defend the ID cards scheme since then; we have key issue. Many Opposition Members have talked about heard all these arguments before. the costs, and the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame This group of amendments, which groups together M. Morris) advanced the extraordinary proposition all the arguments that the Opposition can make against that even though he accepted that the coalition Government the Bill, is a series of impractical and expensive suggestions, had the perfect right to get rid of the ID cards scheme, made, I suspect, with varying degrees of seriousness. If we should have carried on with it because the longer it I were to be kinder than I have up to now, I might say went on the further the costs would be spread. That that some of them may excite genuine feelings among seemed to me an extraordinary attitude to parliamentary Opposition Members, but others have been tabled for democracy. This is a key issue as the taxpayer has the sake of it. already paid £292 million with fewer than 15,000 cards First, I shall deal with the point raised by the hon. having been issued—20% of them paid for by the taxpayer. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) and repeated by So the calculation at the moment is that the cost to the the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve taxpayer so far is about £20,000 per card. If we exclude McCabe) about refunds or passport-related refunds. We the cards issued free of charge, it is £25,000 per card. debated this extensively in Committee, and I recognise That is by any standards a scandalous waste of public that £30 is a significant sum to many people, particularly money that lies squarely at the door of Ministers in the those who are struggling economically in these difficult previous Government. times, when the Government have had to absorb a The argument has come from the hon. Member for terrible economic inheritance from their predecessor. Easington that the scheme would have become self-financing I do not have any data on the socio-economic status over time. Based on public demand, there is no evidence of the very small number of people who bought ID to support that, particularly when the cost report in cards, nor, as far as I am aware, do any Labour Members. 2009, produced by the Labour party when it was in Before anyone stands up to ask me about this, I shall say government, showed that a further £835 million was to that I do not propose to waste any public money by be spent on ID cards by 2019, either by the taxpayer or undertaking a survey of who they are. There are times by individual citizens having to sign up for those cards. when even those in this House need to step back and In the light of those facts and the already excessive apply some common sense to the matters before them. I spending of taxpayers’ money on an unpopular and do not think that anyone in really difficult economic deeply intrusive scheme, we have proposed this Bill. and financial circumstances would have thought, “What That is why we opposed ID cards in opposition and why is the best thing to spend £30 on this week? I know, a we have introduced this Bill so quickly. We do not see very controversial ID card that will enable me to travel why the taxpayer should have to pay yet again. During to Europe, but not anywhere else in the world. That’s the debate, several of my hon. Friends asked how much the most important thing to spend my last £30 on.” I do the cancellation would cost, and the answer is about not believe that one person in this country took that £400,000. As I have illustrated, enough has been spent decision, and I have heard nothing from those on the on the scheme and the taxpayer should not face a Opposition Benches opposite during our discussion of further bill of the best part of half a million pounds. this Bill to convince me that that is any way a realistic That is why we have been clear that refunds will not be proposition. offered. I further point out to the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier), who leads for the Labour party on this, that the charging system for ID Julie Hilling: How much would it cost the taxpayer, cards introduced by her Government took no notice of though, if people had a £30 credit when they applied for the ability to pay. They set a flat fee, which took no their passports? Why would it be costly? account of whether someone was unemployed, an old-age pensioner or in full-time employment, like the right Damian Green: As a practical point, the vast majority hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane). Sadly, of people who have bought ID cards already have he is no longer in his place, but he was asking us passports, so it would be entirely valueless to them. 945 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 946

[Damian Green] I gave some moments ago. We are in contact with the Information Commissioner’s Office about the destruction There are practical difficulties with the amendment. process, as I have said, precisely to ensure transparency It would require the keeping of identity card records for and openness about the physical destruction process. many years to come to ensure that only those who were The Chairman of the Committee made the point that entitled to a refund could apply for one. I shall come on I had jokingly suggested that we might have a sort of to the point made by the hon. Member for Birmingham, auto-da-fé of all that unnecessary information. I was Selly Oak about the destruction of data, but we have only half joking when I said that and, sadly, it is not made it very clear that we will destroy all the data possible because the information is on various databases, obtained under the ID cards scheme and that we do not so we are going to have to delete it. To answer the hon. wish to retain any data for this reason or for any other. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak’s technical question, I observe in the group of amendments that we are that is like any other act of removing information and discussing that the twin threats are unnecessary data involves deleting it from the various databases. That is retention and cost to the taxpayer. Those are the two why we are doing it in conjunction with the Information things that Labour Members who proposed the Commissioner. The hon. Gentleman is waving the Bill it amendments seem to be concerned about. I assume that me, so I will say that it must be done within two months new clause 4 is intended to be helpful in avoiding the of Royal Assent. The reason why I cannot give the exact need for an individual to provide further personal answer that the Chairman of the Committee wants is information in the event that they should subsequently simply that I do not know when Royal Assent will be, apply for a passport. The hon. Member for Houghton but I hope that it is soon. We will then do it as soon as and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson) is, I am sure, possible within the two months set out in the Bill. I aware that, as I have just said, the vast majority of ID hope that reassures the hon. Member for Birmingham, cardholders are or were passport holders, so the information Selly Oak. There is a serious point here: if one believes, relevant to a passport application will already be held as we on the Government side do, that this information on passport records. has been held unnecessarily, it is sensible to get rid of it In any case, the proposed new clause misses the point as soon as possible, and Parliament needs to know of the Bill. The Identity Documents Bill is about scrapping about that. the ID card scheme and destroying the national identity Steve McCabe rose— register. We are opposed to the register in principle on the grounds that it is a database holding huge amounts Damian Green: Let me anticipate what the hon. of personal and biometric data simply because a person Gentleman is about to ask. It has always been my has applied for an identity card. We do not believe that intention that when that had happened, Parliament holding the data is either necessary or proportionate for would be informed by way of a written ministerial the purpose for which they were obtained. Instead, it statement about both the process and delivery of represents a significant intrusion by the state into the destruction. I could not be more open or transparent lives of our citizens. That is why we are looking to about this. We will do it within two months and as soon destroy all the information recorded on the NIR. Officials as possible after Royal Assent. When we have done it, I are currently finalising work with contractors on how shall produce a written parliamentary statement that that will be achieved and the Information Commissioner’s will say not only that we have done it but how we have Office has been notified of the destruction process. done it. I hope that I have finally satisfied the hon. Gentleman on all those points. 4pm On new clause 4, I suspect that hon. Members may Keith Vaz: That is very reassuring, but in his mind not have considered its cost implications. There are and that of the Home Secretary is there a time scale by significant costs associated with establishing whether a which this should be done? We appreciate that contractors person wants their record to be retained, what information have been instructed, but has the Minister said that the he or she is content to be transferred, the security and Government would like that done in a certain number data transfer costs and, finally, future storage costs— of months? particularly if the person does not subsequently apply for a passport. I am afraid that this is another amendment Damian Green: It would be slightly premature for me that seems intent on adding again and again to the cost to give too much detail now because the legislation has of the ID card scheme. We want to scrap the scheme at not been passed. We have tried to be as clear as possible minimal cost to the taxpayer. The new clause would not in saying that we will do it as quickly as possible after achieve that aim and would not remove the state’s the Bill has passed through all its stages, but I do not ability to retain data without good reason. wish unnecessarily to annoy or provoke the other place That profligate approach is evidenced in another of by saying anything else. the amendments before us, supported by the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South. We covered the Steve McCabe: Can the Minister give the House a issue of the life expectancy of the card during earlier categorical assurance that all the information will be stages of the Bill and indicated then that the cost of destroyed within two months of the Act passing? implementing that amendment would be between £50 million and £60 million over 10 years. Damian Green: The hon. Gentleman has ingeniously I note that the hon. Member for Hackney South and asked the same question as his right hon. Friend the Shoreditch has not added her name to the provision, Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee, to which I despite tabling something similar in Committee. She shall therefore give exactly the same answer, or revert to indicated in Committee that she thought that figure was an old parliamentary phrase and refer him to the answer at the top end of the estimates, but I am not sure of the 947 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 948 basis on which she reached that conclusion. The estimate amendments. I should say, however, that I have no is a reasonable reflection of the exorbitant cost to the problem with rallying cries to groups of students in taxpayer that would be incurred by providing a service their place. In fact, not long before the election—when over the next decade for fewer than 15,000 people, the Minister and I sat on opposite sides of the House—we almost 3,000 of whom did not pay for their card in the addressed students together, and he announced that a first place. Leaving aside the cost, the proposal would Conservative Government would remove ID cards to mean retaining the whole national identity register for an audience of about 25 people. another decade, which would involve holding the Let me make it absolutely clear that we tabled new fingerprints of 15,000 innocent people. clauses 2 and 4 as alternatives for the Government to Meg Hillier: I wonder whether the Minister is speaking consider as we try to find a way of providing some to the right provision because my name is attached to recompense to those members of the public who bought the amendment, as it has always been. the cards in good faith. We would have preferred to have tabled a measure providing for a refund but, Damian Green: I apologise to the hon. Lady. If she because there is no money resolution attached to the wishes to associate herself with such a ridiculous proposal, Bill, we could not. With that in mind, we intend to press I am happy for her to do so. both new clauses to Divisions, although if the first is agreed to, we will not need a vote on the second. The proposal would mean that cardholders would run the risk of their card’s usefulness diminishing even I need to pick up on a couple of points that the further over time because of the very small number in Minister made. We were not suggesting in the circulation. That would be likely to result in little or no amendments—perhaps he should look more closely at future engagement or investment by travel operators, them—that we expect the national identity register to carriers and other agencies in accepting ID cards. The continue. They were carefully worded to suggest migration provision would give cardholders the false hope that of data to the existing passport database. In fact, the their ID card would continue to be useful, if they had identity register would have been a modern passport found it useful in the past. I recognise that the amendment database, had the Government had the courage to continue to retain the national identity register has been tabled as that approach. a consequence of the proposal that ID cards should New clause 4 is not about being helpful to those who remain extant for 10 years. already had passports or wanted a passport. It would The national identity register sits at the heart of our allow cards to continue, but would attach them to the opposition to the whole scheme. We do not believe that existing passport database. Accepting that the Government’s it is the role of the state to gather huge amounts of intention is to destroy the national identity register, it personal and biometric information about its citizens sought to find a solution to that. The Minister has not unless there are proportionate and necessary reasons given very good answers about why that could not be for doing so. Such reasons could involve the prevention done. Had the Government included a money resolution, and detection of crime, or national security and safety, it would have been possible—instead of sending two but part of the underlying problem with the ID card letters out to everybody—to provide a refund to those scheme has always been that its purpose was ill defined, who had paid or those who had applied for a refund, with the reason behind its introduction moving over which would not necessarily have been everybody. The time from dealing with terrorism to accessing local Government’s approach is mean-spirited. services. The Minister spoke about the state holding huge The national identity register is nothing but a database amounts of information. I hope that his Government containing data on individuals who have, by choice, still believe that the NHS should hold information on applied for an ID card. The holding of such data people, that the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency represents a significant intrusion on the privacy of the should hold information, and that the passport database individual. Scrapping the scheme and destroying the should exist. The national identity register was a national identity register are major steps towards returning modernisation of the passport database. power to the public and reducing the intrusion of the state. We are opposed to building up banks of data that I assure the House and anyone else who may be neither serve a specific purpose nor deliver a specific watching proceedings today that there is nothing synthetic outcome. The national identity register fails on both about our indignation. We recognise that both Government counts. parties had clear policies on the issue, and we can do the maths. We know that we have limited options to improve I have dealt in some detail with all the new clauses the Bill, and we are trying to make the best of a bad job and amendments tabled by Labour Members. Each of because the Bill does many things of which we disapprove. them fails on practicality, and many of them fail because New clauses 2 and 4 attempt to provide some recompense they would create an extra charge on either the public to the people affected. purse directly, or the citizens of this country indirectly. They all fail, however, because behind them lies the We have heard some disparaging comments. The desire to intrude far too much on the private lives of hon. Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) spoke people that was at the heart of the previous Labour about politics being tough. It is clear that his Government Government. As a civil libertarian, I genuinely hope are saying that it is tough on members of the public who that the future Labour party will reject that in its bought a card. The hon. Member for Perth and North entirety. Perthshire (Pete Wishart) spoke about the mugs who bought a card. That disparaging attitude may well be Meg Hillier: I was puzzled by the Minister’s speech reflected in the Lobby, so let us be clear who is on the because it sounded more like a rallying cry to a group of side of the consumer in this case. It is certainly not the students than an attempt to address the new clauses and Government. 949 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 950

[Meg Hillier] Hamilton, Mr Fabian Nash, Pamela Hanson, rh Mr David O’Donnell, Fiona The Minister used his cod maths when talking about Harman, rh Ms Harriet Onwurah, Chi the cost of the identity card scheme. It does not behove Harris, Mr Tom Osborne, Sandra a Government Minister to be so flippant and free with Healey, rh John Owen, Albert figures when he well knows that the cards had to be Hendrick, Mark Pearce, Teresa Hillier, Meg Perkins, Toby paid for by fees. As is the case with the first issue of Hilling, Julie Phillipson, Bridget anything, when the first Mini rolled off the production Hodge, rh Margaret Qureshi, Yasmin line, it probably cost several million, if not billions of Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Raynsford, rh Mr Nick pounds, but for the last Mini, by definition, the cost per Hopkins, Kelvin Reed, Mr Jamie item was much lower because many thousand would Illsley, Mr Eric Reeves, Rachel have been produced. Identity cards had been issued for James, Mrs Siân C. Riordan, Mrs Linda a few months at the time of the general election, but Jamieson, Cathy Roy, Mr Frank under Treasury rules they had to be paid for out of fees, Johnson, rh Alan Roy, Lindsay just like passports, as the Minister knows. It ill behoves Johnson, Diana R. Ruddock, rh Joan him to take that approach. I wish to divide the House Jones, Graham Seabeck, Alison on the new clauses. Jones, Mr Kevan Sheerman, Mr Barry Jones, Susan Elan Sheridan, Jim Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Jowell, rh Tessa Shuker, Gavin The House proceeded to a Division. Joyce, Eric Skinner, Mr Dennis Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Slaughter, Mr Andy Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I ask the Keeley, Barbara Smith, rh Mr Andrew Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Keen, Alan Smith, Angela (Penistone and Lobby. Kendall, Liz Stocksbridge) Lammy, rh Mr David Smith, Nick The House having divided: Ayes 189, Noes 302. Lavery, Ian Smith, Owen Division No. 63] [4.13 pm Leslie, Chris Soulsby, Sir Peter Lewis, Mr Ivan Spellar, rh Mr John AYES Lloyd, Tony Straw, rh Mr Jack Love, Mr Andrew Stringer, Graham Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Dakin, Nic Lucas, Caroline Stuart, Ms Gisela Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Danczuk, Simon MacShane, rh Mr Denis Tami, Mark Allen, Mr Graham Darling, rh Mr Alistair Mactaggart, Fiona Thomas, Mr Gareth Austin, Ian David, Mr Wayne Mann, John Thornberry, Emily Bailey, Mr Adrian Davidson, Mr Ian Marsden, Mr Gordon Timms, rh Stephen Bain, Mr William Davies, Geraint McCabe, Steve Trickett, Jon Balls, rh Ed De Piero, Gloria McCann, Mr Michael Turner, Karl Banks, Gordon Denham, rh Mr John McClymont, Gregg Twigg, Derek Barron, rh Mr Kevin Dobbin, Jim McDonagh, Siobhain Twigg, Stephen Beckett, rh Margaret Dobson, rh Frank McFadden, rh Mr Pat Umunna, Mr Chuka Bell, Sir Stuart Donohoe, Mr Brian H. McGovern, Alison Vaz, Valerie Benn, rh Hilary Doran, Mr Frank McGovern, Jim Walley, Joan Benton, Mr Joe Dowd, Jim McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Whitehead, Dr Alan Berger, Luciana Doyle, Gemma McKinnell, Catherine Williamson, Chris Blenkinsop, Tom Dromey, Jack Meacher, rh Mr Michael Wilson, Phil Blomfield, Paul Dugher, Michael Mearns, Ian Winnick, Mr David Blunkett, rh Mr David Eagle, Ms Angela Miliband, rh Edward Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Brennan, Kevin Eagle, Maria Mitchell, Austin Woodcock, John Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Efford, Clive Moon, Mrs Madeleine Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Bryant, Chris Elliott, Julie Morrice, Graeme Wright, David Buck, Ms Karen Ellman, Mrs Louise Morris, Grahame M. Wright, Mr Iain Burnham, rh Andy Esterson, Bill Mudie, Mr George Campbell, Mr Alan Evans, Chris Munn, Meg Tellers for the Ayes: Campbell, Mr Ronnie Farrelly, Paul Murphy, rh Paul Lyn Brown and Clark, Katy Field, rh Mr Frank Nandy, Lisa Mr Dave Watts Clarke, rh Mr Tom Flello, Robert Coaker, Vernon Flint, rh Caroline NOES Coffey, Ann Fovargue, Yvonne Connarty, Michael Francis, Dr Hywel Afriyie, Adam Barker, Gregory Cooper, Rosie Gardiner, Barry Aldous, Peter Bebb, Guto Cooper, rh Yvette Gilmore, Sheila Alexander, rh Danny Beith, rh Sir Alan Corbyn, Jeremy Glindon, Mrs Mary Amess, Mr David Bellingham, Mr Henry Crausby, Mr David Goggins, rh Paul Andrew, Stuart Benyon, Richard Creagh, Mary Goodman, Helen Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Birtwistle, Gordon Creasy, Stella Greatrex, Tom Bacon, Mr Richard Blackman, Bob Cruddas, Jon Green, Kate Bagshawe, Ms Louise Blackwood, Nicola Cryer, John Greenwood, Lilian Baker, Norman Blunt, Mr Crispin Cunningham, Alex Griffith, Nia Baker, Steve Boles, Nick Cunningham, Mr Jim Gwynne, Andrew Baldry, Tony Bone, Mr Peter Cunningham, Tony Hain, rh Mr Peter Baldwin, Harriett Bottomley, Peter Curran, Margaret Hamilton, Mr David Barclay, Stephen Bradley, Karen 951 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 952

Brady, Mr Graham George, Andrew Loughton, Tim Sandys, Laura Brake, Tom Gibb, Mr Nick Luff, Peter Scott, Mr Lee Bray, Angie Gilbert, Stephen Lumley, Karen Selous, Andrew Brazier, Mr Julian Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Shannon, Jim Bridgen, Andrew Glen, John Main, Mrs Anne Shapps, rh Grant Brine, Mr Steve Goldsmith, Zac Maude, rh Mr Francis Sharma, Alok Brokenshire, James Goodwill, Mr Robert Maynard, Paul Shelbrooke, Alec Brooke, Annette Gove, rh Michael McCartney, Jason Shepherd, Mr Richard Bruce, Fiona Graham, Richard McCrea, Dr William Simmonds, Mark Buckland, Mr Robert Grant, Mrs Helen McIntosh, Miss Anne Simpson, David Burley, Mr Aidan Gray, Mr James McPartland, Stephen Skidmore, Chris Burns, Conor Green, Damian McVey, Esther Smith, Henry Burns, Mr Simon Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Menzies, Mark Smith, Julian Burrowes, Mr David Griffiths, Andrew Mercer, Patrick Smith, Sir Robert Burstow, Mr Paul Gummer, Ben Metcalfe, Stephen Soames, Nicholas Burt, Lorely Gyimah, Mr Sam Miller, Maria Soubry, Anna Byles, Dan Halfon, Robert Mills, Nigel Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Cairns, Alun Hames, Duncan Milton, Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hammond, rh Mr Philip Moore, rh Michael Stanley, rh Sir John Carmichael, Mr Alistair Hammond, Stephen Mordaunt, Penny Stephenson, Andrew Carmichael, Neil Hancock, Matthew Morgan, Nicky Stevenson, John Carswell, Mr Douglas Harper, Mr Mark Morris, Anne Marie Stewart, Bob Cash, Mr William Harris, Rebecca Morris, David Stewart, Iain Chishti, Rehman Hart, Simon Morris, James Stewart, Rory Clark, rh Greg Harvey, Nick Mowat, David Stride, Mel Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hayes, Mr John Mulholland, Greg Stuart, Mr Graham Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heald, Mr Oliver Mundell, rh David Stunell, Andrew Collins, Damian Heath, Mr David Munt, Tessa Sturdy, Julian Colvile, Oliver Heaton-Harris, Chris Murray, Sheryll Swales, Ian Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hemming, John Murrison, Dr Andrew Swinson, Jo Crabb, Stephen Henderson, Gordon Neill, Robert Swire, Mr Hugo Crouch, Tracey Hendry, Charles Newmark, Mr Brooks Syms, Mr Robert Davey, Mr Edward Hinds, Damian Newton, Sarah Tapsell, Sir Peter Davies, David T. C. Hoban, Mr Mark Nokes, Caroline Teather, Sarah (Monmouth) Hollingbery, George Norman, Jesse Timpson, Mr Edward Davies, Glyn Hollobone, Mr Philip Nuttall, Mr David Truss, Elizabeth de Bois, Nick Hopkins, Kris Offord, Mr Matthew Turner, Mr Andrew Dinenage, Caroline Horwood, Martin Ollerenshaw, Eric Tyrie, Mr Andrew Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Howell, John Opperman, Guy Uppal, Paul Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Hughes, Simon Paice, Mr James Vaizey, Mr Edward Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Huhne, rh Chris Paisley, Ian Vara, Mr Shailesh Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hunter, Mark Parish, Neil Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Dorries, Nadine Hurd, Mr Nick Patel, Priti Walker, Mr Charles Doyle-Price, Jackie Jackson, Mr Stewart Pawsey, Mark Walker, Mr Robin Drax, Richard James, Margot Penning, Mike Wallace, Mr Ben Duddridge, James Javid, Sajid Penrose, John Watkinson, Angela Duncan, rh Mr Alan Johnson, Gareth Percy, Andrew Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Johnson, Joseph Perry, Claire Webb, Steve Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Andrew Pickles, rh Mr Eric Weir, Mr Mike Edwards, Jonathan Jones, Mr David Pincher, Christopher Wharton, James Ellis, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Poulter, Dr Daniel Wheeler, Heather Ellison, Jane Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pritchard, Mark Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Ellwood, Mr Tobias Knight, rh Mr Greg Pugh, Dr John Wiggin, Bill Elphicke, Charlie Kwarteng, Kwasi Raab, Mr Dominic Willetts, rh Mr David Eustice, George Laing, Mrs Eleanor Randall, rh Mr John Williams, Hywel Evans, Graham Lamb, Norman Reckless, Mark Williams, Mr Mark Evans, Jonathan Lancaster, Mark Redwood, rh Mr John Williams, Roger Fabricant, Michael Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rees-Mogg, Jacob Williamson, Gavin Fallon, Michael Laws, rh Mr David Reevell, Simon Wilson, Mr Rob Farron, Tim Leadsom, Andrea Reid, Mr Alan Wilson, Sammy Featherstone, Lynne Lee, Jessica Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Wishart, Pete Field, Mr Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Robertson, Angus Wollaston, Dr Sarah Foster, Mr Don Leech, Mr John Robertson, Hugh Yeo, Mr Tim Robertson, Mr Laurence Fox,rhDrLiam Leigh, Mr Edward Young, rh Sir George Rogerson, Dan Francois, rh Mr Mark Leslie, Charlotte Zahawi, Nadhim Freeman, George Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rudd, Amber Freer, Mike Lewis, Brandon Russell, Bob Tellers for the Noes: Rutley, David Fullbrook, Lorraine Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Miss Chloe Smith and Sanders, Mr Adrian Jeremy Wright Fuller, Richard Lidington, Mr David Gale, Mr Roger Lloyd, Stephen Garnier, Mark Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Question accordingly negatived. Gauke, Mr David Lord, Jonathan 953 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 954

New Clause 4 Jamieson, Cathy Pound, Stephen Johnson, rh Alan Raynsford, rh Mr Nick TRANSFER OF INFORMATION FROM NATIONAL Johnson, Diana R. Reed, Mr Jamie Jones, Graham Reeves, Rachel IDENTITY REGISTER TO IDENTITY AND PASSPORT Jones, Mr Kevan Riordan, Mrs Linda SERVICE Jones, Susan Elan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey ‘The Secretary of State must ensure that any information Jowell, rh Tessa Roy, Mr Frank recorded in the National Identity Register which— Joyce, Eric Roy, Lindsay (a) relates to a person (“P”) who has indicated that Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Ruddock, rh Joan P wishes to retain P’s identity card until its expiry Keeley, Barbara Seabeck, Alison date, and Keen, Alan Sheerman, Mr Barry (b) is relevant to an application by P for a passport, Kendall, Liz Sheridan, Jim is transferred to the Identity and Passport Service.’.—(Tony Lammy, rh Mr David Shuker, Gavin Cunningham.) Lavery, Ian Skinner, Mr Dennis Brought up, and read the First time. Leslie, Chris Slaughter, Mr Andy Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, rh Mr Andrew Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Lloyd, Tony Smith, Angela (Penistone and The House divided: Ayes 193, Noes 311. Love, Mr Andrew Stocksbridge) MacShane, rh Mr Denis Smith, Nick Division No. 64] [4.29 pm Mactaggart, Fiona Smith, Owen Mann, John Soulsby, Sir Peter AYES Marsden, Mr Gordon Spellar, rh Mr John Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Dobbin, Jim McCabe, Steve Straw, rh Mr Jack Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Dobson, rh Frank McCann, Mr Michael Stringer, Graham McClymont, Gregg Allen, Mr Graham Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Stuart, Ms Gisela McDonagh, Siobhain Austin, Ian Doran, Mr Frank Tami, Mark McFadden, rh Mr Pat Bailey, Mr Adrian Dowd, Jim Thomas, Mr Gareth Bain, Mr William Doyle, Gemma McGovern, Alison Thornberry, Emily Balls, rh Ed Dromey, Jack McGovern, Jim Timms, rh Stephen Banks, Gordon Dugher, Michael McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Trickett, Jon Barron, rh Mr Kevin Eagle, Ms Angela McKinnell, Catherine Turner, Karl Beckett, rh Margaret Eagle, Maria Meacher, rh Mr Michael Bell, Sir Stuart Efford, Clive Mearns, Ian Twigg, Derek Benn, rh Hilary Elliott, Julie Miliband, rh David Twigg, Stephen Benton, Mr Joe Ellman, Mrs Louise Miliband, rh Edward Umunna, Mr Chuka Berger, Luciana Engel, Natascha Mitchell, Austin Vaz, Valerie Blenkinsop, Tom Esterson, Bill Moon, Mrs Madeleine Walley, Joan Blomfield, Paul Evans, Chris Morrice, Graeme Whitehead, Dr Alan Blunkett, rh Mr David Farrelly, Paul Morris, Grahame Williamson, Chris Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Field, rh Mr Frank M. Wilson, Phil Brennan, Kevin Flello, Robert Mudie, Mr George Winnick, Mr David Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Flint, rh Caroline Munn, Meg Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Bryant, Chris Fovargue, Yvonne Murphy, rh Paul Wood, Mike Buck, Ms Karen Francis, Dr Hywel Nandy, Lisa Woodcock, John Burnham, rh Andy Gardiner, Barry Nash, Pamela Woodward, rh Mr Shaun O’Donnell, Fiona Campbell, Mr Alan Gilmore, Sheila Wright, David Onwurah, Chi Campbell, Mr Ronnie Glindon, Mrs Mary Wright, Mr Iain Clark, Katy Goggins, rh Paul Osborne, Sandra Clarke, rh Mr Tom Goodman, Helen Pearce, Teresa Tellers for the Ayes: Coaker, Vernon Greatrex, Tom Perkins, Toby Lyn Brown and Coffey, Ann Green, Kate Phillipson, Bridget Mr Dave Watts Connarty, Michael Greenwood, Lilian Cooper, Rosie Griffith, Nia NOES Cooper, rh Yvette Gwynne, Andrew Afriyie, Adam Birtwistle, Gordon Corbyn, Jeremy Hain, rh Mr Peter Crausby, Mr David Hamilton, Mr David Aldous, Peter Blackman, Bob Creagh, Mary Hamilton, Mr Fabian Alexander, rh Danny Blackwood, Nicola Creasy, Stella Hanson, rh Mr David Amess, Mr David Blunt, Mr Crispin Cruddas, Jon Harman, rh Ms Harriet Andrew, Stuart Boles, Nick Cunningham, Alex Harris, Mr Tom Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bone, Mr Peter Cunningham, Mr Healey, rh John Bacon, Mr Richard Bottomley, Peter Jim Hendrick, Mark Bagshawe, Ms Louise Bradley, Karen Cunningham, Tony Hillier, Meg Baker, Norman Brady, Mr Graham Curran, Margaret Hilling, Julie Baker, Steve Brake, Tom Dakin, Nic Hodge, rh Margaret Baldry, Tony Bray, Angie Danczuk, Simon Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Baldwin, Harriett Brazier, Mr Julian Darling, rh Mr Alistair Hopkins, Kelvin Barclay, Stephen Bridgen, Andrew David, Mr Wayne Howarth, rh Mr George Barker, Gregory Brine, Mr Steve Davidson, Mr Ian Illsley, Mr Eric Bebb, Guto Brokenshire, James Davies, Geraint Jackson, Glenda Beith, rh Sir Alan Brooke, Annette De Piero, Gloria James, Mrs Siân Bellingham, Mr Henry Bruce, Fiona Denham, rh Mr John C. Benyon, Richard Buckland, Mr Robert 955 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 956

Burley, Mr Aidan Gove, rh Michael MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Selous, Andrew Burns, Conor Graham, Richard Main, Mrs Anne Shannon, Jim Burns, Mr Simon Grant, Mrs Helen Maude, rh Mr Francis Shapps, rh Grant Burrowes, Mr David Gray, Mr James Maynard, Paul Sharma, Alok Burstow, Mr Paul Green, Damian McCartney, Jason Shelbrooke, Alec Burt, Lorely Greening, Justine McCrea, Dr William Shepherd, Mr Richard Byles, Dan Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McIntosh, Miss Anne Simmonds, Mark Cable, rh Vince Griffiths, Andrew McPartland, Stephen Simpson, David Cairns, Alun Gummer, Ben McVey, Esther Skidmore, Chris Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gyimah, Mr Sam Menzies, Mark Smith, Henry Carmichael, Mr Alistair Halfon, Robert Mercer, Patrick Smith, Julian Carmichael, Neil Hames, Duncan Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Sir Robert Carswell, Mr Douglas Hammond, rh Mr Philip Miller, Maria Soames, Nicholas Cash, Mr William Hammond, Stephen Mills, Nigel Soubry, Anna Chishti, Rehman Hancock, Matthew Milton, Anne Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Clark, rh Greg Harper, Mr Mark Moore, rh Michael Spencer, Mr Mark Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Harris, Rebecca Mordaunt, Penny Stanley, rh Sir John Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hart, Simon Morgan, Nicky Stephenson, Andrew Collins, Damian Harvey, Nick Morris, Anne Marie Stevenson, John Colvile, Oliver Hayes, Mr John Morris, David Stewart, Bob Cox, Mr Geoffrey Heald, Mr Oliver Morris, James Stewart, Iain Crabb, Stephen Heath, Mr David Mowat, David Stewart, Rory Crouch, Tracey Heaton-Harris, Chris Mulholland, Greg Stride, Mel Davey, Mr Edward Hemming, John Mundell, rh David Stuart, Mr Graham Davies, David T. C. Henderson, Gordon Munt, Tessa Stunell, Andrew (Monmouth) Hendry, Charles Murray, Sheryll Sturdy, Julian Davies, Glyn Hinds, Damian Murrison, Dr Andrew Swales, Ian de Bois, Nick Hoban, Mr Mark Neill, Robert Swayne, Mr Desmond Dinenage, Caroline Hollingbery, George Newmark, Mr Brooks Swinson, Jo Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hollobone, Mr Philip Newton, Sarah Swire, Mr Hugo Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Hopkins, Kris Nokes, Caroline Syms, Mr Robert Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey Horwood, Martin Norman, Jesse Tapsell, Sir Peter M. Hosie, Stewart Nuttall, Mr David Teather, Sarah Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Howell, John Offord, Mr Matthew Timpson, Mr Edward Dorries, Nadine Hughes, Simon Ollerenshaw, Eric Tomlinson, Justin Doyle-Price, Jackie Huhne, rh Chris Opperman, Guy Truss, Elizabeth Drax, Richard Hunter, Mark Paice, Mr James Turner, Mr Andrew Duddridge, James Hurd, Mr Nick Paisley, Ian Tyrie, Mr Andrew Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jackson, Mr Stewart Parish, Neil Uppal, Paul Duncan Smith, rh Mr James, Margot Patel, Priti Vaizey, Mr Edward Iain Javid, Sajid Paterson, rh Mr Owen Vickers, Martin Dunne, Mr Philip Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pawsey, Mark Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Edwards, Jonathan Johnson, Gareth Penning, Mike Walker, Mr Charles Ellis, Michael Johnson, Joseph Penrose, John Walker, Mr Robin Ellison, Jane Jones, Andrew Percy, Andrew Wallace, Mr Ben Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Mr David Perry, Claire Watkinson, Angela Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Mr Marcus Pickles, rh Mr Eric Webb, Steve Eustice, George Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pincher, Christopher Weir, Mr Mike Evans, Graham Knight, rh Mr Greg Poulter, Dr Daniel Wharton, James Evans, Jonathan Kwarteng, Kwasi Pritchard, Mark Wheeler, Heather Fabricant, Michael Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pugh, Dr John Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Fallon, Michael Lamb, Norman Raab, Mr Dominic Wiggin, Bill Farron, Tim Lancaster, Mark Randall, rh Mr John Willetts, rh Mr David Featherstone, Lynne Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reckless, Mark Williams, Hywel Field, Mr Mark Laws, rh Mr David Redwood, rh Mr John Williams, Mr Mark Foster, Mr Don Leadsom, Andrea Rees-Mogg, Jacob Williams, Roger Fox,rhDrLiam Lee, Jessica Reevell, Simon Williamson, Gavin Francois, rh Mr Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Reid, Mr Alan Wilson, Mr Rob Freeman, George Leech, Mr John Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Wilson, Sammy Freer, Mike Leigh, Mr Edward Robertson, Angus Wishart, Pete Fullbrook, Lorraine Leslie, Charlotte Robertson, Hugh Wollaston, Dr Sarah Fuller, Richard Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Robertson, Mr Laurence Wright, Jeremy Gale, Mr Roger Lewis, Brandon Rogerson, Dan Yeo, Mr Tim Rudd, Amber Garnier, Mark Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Young, rh Sir George Russell, Bob Gauke, Mr David Lidington, Mr David Zahawi, Nadhim George, Andrew Lloyd, Stephen Rutley, David Gibb, Mr Nick Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Sanders, Mr Adrian Tellers for the Noes: Sandys, Laura Gilbert, Stephen Lord, Jonathan Miss Chloe Smith and Scott, Mr Lee Mr Shailesh Vara Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Loughton, Tim Glen, John Lucas, Caroline Goldsmith, Zac Luff, Peter Question accordingly negatived. Goodwill, Mr Robert Lumley, Karen 957 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 958

Clause 1 It would not be appropriate for two reasons, still less practical, to list what that information may be. First, REPEAL OF IDENTITY CARDS ACT 2006 doing so would obviously alert potential fraudsters to Damian Green: I beg to move amendment 1, page 1, the categories or sources of information being used, line 9, leave out and may give them an indication of what information sources they should satisfy to ensure that a fraudulent ‘(with consequential amendments) by this Act’ passport application might be successful. Secondly, the and insert format and source from which information could be ‘by this Act (with consequential amendments and, in the case of obtained is not exhaustive, and it would be unnecessarily section 38, also with minor amendments)’. restrictive on the operational ability of the Identity and Passport Service not to be able to make use of verification Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): With this it sources that would support the main aim of preventing will be convenient to discuss Government amendments 2 and reducing fraud. Importantly, we believe that we to 4. have strengthened the legislation by clarifying in the Bill Damian Green: The amendments address an issue that any information required must be relevant to the that was much discussed in Committee. They are not passport application. central to the Bill itself, but they are an important part The amendments to clause 10 also place a requirement of the wider picture. As we have already discussed at all on the Secretary of State to destroy any information stages, the Bill is about scrapping ID cards, destroying obtained under the clause within 28 days of the passport the data held on the national identity register and, as a being issued. That is already current practice in the result, removing the disproportionate hand of the state Identity and Passport Service, but placing the requirement in the gathering of personal and biometric data for the on to a statutory footing will increase transparency and purpose of issuing an ID card. It removes the ability of accountability. Where information has been obtained in the state to require that a cardholder informs the state consideration of a possible withdrawal of the passport, for the next 10 years of their personal circumstances, any information gathered must be destroyed within and it removes the threat of a heavy fine of up to £1,000 28 days of a decision not to withdraw the passport. should they fail to do so. Where a passport has been refused, the information will Most of the clauses in the Bill re-enact the parts of be retained only for as long as is necessary for possible the Identity Cards Act 2006 that were useful and investigative and prosecutorial purposes. We believe proportionate. Clause 1 re-enacts the provisions of that that is a proportionate approach to data retention, section 38 of the 2006 Act, which allows the Secretary and it is appropriate that the retention policy should be of State to require relevant information to be provided set out in the Bill. Amendment 1 is a technical amendment, to verify information provided in a passport application proposed in the light of the changes to clause 10 that I or to decide whether to withdraw a passport. In this have outlined. context, “relevant information” includes identity information to confirm that the applicant is a real The passage of the Bill through this House has served person and the person whom they claim to be. It enables to illustrate the level of support for our overall policy of the Identity and Passport Service to obtain information scrapping the ID card scheme. The Bill went through relevant to the application and considered necessary to unopposed on Second Reading. I commend the wisdom conduct an effective interview with first-time applicants. of the Opposition in not seeking to oppose the principle That may include records from the credit reference of the Bill, although their rhetoric has not quite matched agency that will show how long the person has lived at the practicalities of their votes. However, one thing that an address and at how many addresses they have lived. does not divide me from the hon. Member for Hackney It would be unlawful and a breach of the Data Protection South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier), who leads for the Act to require information that was not relevant to the Opposition on this issue, is that we both recognise that passport application. we must continue to do everything that we can to tackle identity fraud. We recognise the importance of clause 10 During the oral evidence sessions in Committee, two in preventing and combating fraud, and in maintaining pressure groups—Liberty and Justice—supported the the effectiveness of counter-fraud investigators in achieving provisions in the clause, which is a welcome and envious successful prosecutions against those who seek to make position for any Government when bringing new legislation fraudulent applications. With the amendments, the revised before Parliament. However, I indicated in Committee clause 10 will achieve that, at the same time as increasing that I would welcome representations from members of transparency and accountability.I hope that hon. Members the Committee on the scope of clause 10—in particular, from all parts of the House will welcome the improvements on ensuring that information obtained is indeed passport- that the amendments propose. specific—and on the retention policy on data obtained.

4.45 pm Meg Hillier: In general terms, Her Majesty’s Opposition Many points were made in Committee, and I have support the amendments, but I have a number of small reflected on them. Many of the most cogent points were points to make and questions to ask of the Minister. I made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge understand his reasons for not publishing the list of (Dr Huppert), who is sadly not in his place today. As he organisations that might be referred to. I recognise the indicated in the fifth sitting of the Committee, clause 10 valid security reasons for that, but it does rather go would benefit from greater clarity about the Secretary against his desire for transparency. I wonder how he will of State’s ability to require information. The amendments try to square that circle, to ensure that safeguards are in before the House would place a statutory limitation in place with respect to which organisations are approached. the Bill, requiring that information be obtained only in I am aware that internal audits take place on a routine respect of the passport application. basis in passport offices up and down our different 959 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 960 countries. However, the Minister has made much of the Meg Hillier: If the Minister is not hearing what I am need for transparency and safeguards, and the two do saying, perhaps there is an issue about how he is answering not work well together. questions generally. I was not asking him to do that, so I reserve judgment on the proposal to retain data for that is fine; we agree. I simply want to know whether he 28 days. I recognise that the current practice in the feels personally reassured that these measures will not Identity and Passport Service works quite well, and it is detract from the ability of the UK Passport Service to interesting that the Government want to put those carry out the security checks that normally take place. arrangements on to a statutory footing. It is interesting If that was not clear before, I hope that it is now partly because passports are issued under the royal absolutely clear. I do not think that we are asking for prerogative, an arrangement that is not on a statutory different things; I am just seeking reassurance from the footing. I also wonder whether such a move might limit Minister that he has done his job as thoroughly as I any necessary flexibility. What conversations has the expect he has. Minister had with those who deal with the security of our passports, in particularly the excellent team based Damian Green: Of course the Department that the in the Glasgow passport office, who often put themselves hon. Lady used to be responsible for would not put the at great risk while investigating and uncovering fraud? I security of our passports at risk. am aware that data relating, in particular, to withdrawn To answer the hon. Lady’s other point, information passports can be especially important in uncovering relevant to future investigations would be retained under rings of individuals trying to help others fraudulently the proposals before us, with the amendments here. I to obtain passports. Generally, I support the principle hope that she will agree that that strikes an appropriate of not holding information any longer than is necessary balance. Genuine concerns were expressed—not just by for this purpose, but we need to ensure that the Government my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), are not unnecessarily restricting action on fraud. but by Members of all parties—to the effect that the In passing, I must also add that the Bill is a lost simple repetition of the original clause might put us at opportunity to tackle fraud. Had we still been pursuing the wrong side on the spectrum between transparency the inclusion of fingerprints in passports, which the and security. That is why I agreed to put the 28-day Minister is throwing out under the terms of the Bill, provision directly in the Bill. The hon. Lady asked that would have helped to reduce fraud more generally. about that, and I see no reason to believe that this will If the Minister can answer those two points, it would in any way inhibit or impede anti-fraud operations. reassure me considerably. What the amendments will do by changing the clause is to allow operations to be properly conducted while at Damian Green: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her the same time reassuring individual applicants that any questions. As I understand it, in one of them she is information they give is not kept for an unnecessarily suggesting that I am being too transparent, and in the long period of time. That is what this set of amendments other that I am not being transparent enough. I appreciate is designed to achieve. I commend them to the House. the difficulties of opposition, having had 13 years of it, Amendment 1 agreed to. just as she will appreciate some of the pressures on Ministers. She asked me to reveal internal conversations within the Department, particularly with people who Clause 10 are involved with difficult and dangerous anti-fraud operations. She will know as well as I do that it would VERIFICATION OF INFORMATION be hugely inappropriate and unwise for me to answer Amendments made: 2, page 5, line 24, leave out that question directly. subsections (1) to (3) and insert— ‘(1) This section applies where it appears to the Secretary of Meg Hillier: I fully appreciate that, but I did not State that a person within subsection (4) may have information actually ask the Minister to answer that question directly. that could be used— I shall take him to be a man of honour and a man of his (a) for verifying information provided to the Secretary of word if he can tell us that these issues have been fully State for the purposes of, or in connection with, an explored and that he is personally content about them. application for the issue of a passport, or It is important that the House should know that that is (b) for determining whether to withdraw an individual’s the case, partly because those individuals put themselves passport. in harm’s way when doing their job. (2) For the purpose of making the verification or determination mentioned in subsection (1)(a) or (b), the Damian Green: Indeed so. This is not an adversarial Secretary of State may require the person within subsection (4) climate, but the hon. Lady will know as well as I do that to provide the Secretary of State with the information by a date striking a balance between transparency and flexibility specified in the requirement.’. on the one hand and security on the other lies at the Amendment 3, page 6, line 2, leave out heart of much of what the Home Office does, and, ‘of relevant information to the Secretary of State’ indeed, of much of what the Bill seeks to do. She and I would probably find ourselves on different points of and insert that particular spectrum, but we both recognise that it is ‘to the Secretary of State of information that could be used as a spectrum within which we both have to operate. I can mentioned in subsection (1)(a) or (b)’. only say that it would clearly not be appropriate for me Amendment 4, page 6, line 16, at end insert— to set out for the benefit of potential fraudsters which ‘(8A) In a case within subsection (1)(a) where a passport is organisations they would have to satisfy in order to be issued, information provided in accordance with this section issued with a passport, so I shall decline the opportunity must be destroyed no later than 28 days after the passport is to talk to her about the individual organisations concerned. issued. 961 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 962

(8B) In a case within subsection (1)(b) where a passport is not The Bill should also be seen as part of a wider withdrawn, information provided in accordance with this section programme to increase individual freedom. Along with must be destroyed no later than 28 days after the determination is Bills such as the freedom Bill, it will, as I have said, alter made not to withdraw the passport. the balance irrevocably, giving us more powerful citizens (8C) Subsections (8A) and (8B) do not apply in a case where it and a less than all-powerful state. That is one of the appears to the Secretary of State to be desirable to retain the significant changes for the better that the Government information for the purpose of— will be able to achieve for the country. (a) preventing or detecting crime, or There was a discussion about who was responsible (b) apprehending or prosecuting offenders.’.—(Damian for the ID card scheme: about whether it was a new Green.) Labour creation, or, ingeniously, the creation of my Third Reading noble and learned Friend Lord Howard of Lympne. The truth is that it was neither. We had ID cards in this country during the second world war. They were abolished 4.56 pm in the 1950s, to great public acclaim, by a Conservative Damian Green: I beg to move, That the Bill be now Government who concentrated, as we have done throughout read the Third time. the decades, on the importance of maintaining the power of the citizen. It is a huge pleasure to move Third Reading. The Bill has now proceeded through the scrutiny stages of this In times of crisis, Governments often return to ID House. I appreciate that this is a short and simple Bill, card schemes, and it was clearly the view of the last but it is a genuinely historic one—not only because, as Government that Britain was at war after 9/11, that we mentioned, it was the first Bill introduced by the coalition were at war with terrorists permanently, and that we Government, but because its content is historic and therefore needed to be put on a permanent war footing. marks a significant shift in direction in the relationship It is at the heart of the contention of those of us who between the state and the citizen in this country. That in voted against the original Bill, and campaigned successfully itself represents a significant step forward. against it—as has now been proved with the passage of this legislation—that we cannot and should not lead The House has agreed to destroy data held by the our lives as though we were in a state of permanent state without condition or distinction. Consigning the warfare: that if people’s freedoms are restricted so much ID cards scheme and the national identity register to in an attempt to defend those freedoms, those who the scrapheap reflects the absolute commitment of the threaten our freedoms have already won. coalition Government to reduce the interference of the state and return power back to the people. I am very This is a significant victory for the British people. I proud of what the Bill will achieve and I am encouraged pay tribute not only to Members on both sides of the by the support for it in all parts of the House. I House who have supported the Bill, but to the various emphasise “all parts” because we have had some fairly pressure groups which have been involved. Liberty and partisan debates this afternoon, but even Labour Members Justice have been mentioned, but I also pay tribute to have admitted that the Conservative party had a clear the No2ID campaign, which can chalk itself up as one commitment in its manifesto, as did the Liberal Democrats of the most successful pressure groups in history. It was and the nationalist parties in their manifestos. formed less than 10 years ago, and within a decade of its formation it has achieved its principal aim. Many of us welcome the fact that two fifths of wisdom is beginning to creep into the Labour party in No doubt all the pressure groups that I have just that two of the five leadership candidates have decided praised will spend the next few years complaining that that the ID card scheme was a mistake. I fear for those we have not gone far enough in various directions. who have expressed such strong support for that scheme; However, I look forward to constructive discussions if the wrong Miliband wins, they could be in trouble. I with them. The broad conclusion that the country can also fear for the peace of the dinner party in that the draw from the passage of the Bill is that the march of civil libertarian/authoritarian divide is beginning to open freedom is happening again, and the British people are up in the Labour party and has even opened up in the beginning to recover their historic freedoms and gain Miliband family. This will be an issue that they will have new freedoms. That is one of the many ways in which to resolve in a few weeks’ time. this Government will improve the lives of people throughout This Bill has sought to repeal parts of the 2006 Act the country. that dealt with the ID card scheme, but we have been careful—I want to emphasise this—to re-enact the important powers on fraud prevention and detection 5.3 pm available to protect the public. There is no reduction in Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and public security as a result of the Bill; rather, it is about Hillsborough) (Lab): In a speech on Second Reading, seeing an enormous increase in public freedom. when there was a time limit, I paid tribute to campaigning I am grateful to all hon. Members who have taken groups that had been extremely effective in swaying part in the Bill’s scrutiny. We have taken on board the opinion in the media, at least—if not the opinion of the concerns raised on Second Reading and in Committee country—against the idea of new forms of biometric on information verification, and we have successfully recording and an up-to-date and verifiable national tabled amendments to strengthen safeguards for the register showing who was in the country and their public and raise accountability. We noted the comments identity. I now pay tribute to the Minister for his dedicated made in Committee about transgendered people, and work in opposition, and in the four months of the will engage in further work with international colleagues coalition Government, in implementing the commitment in relation to the points raised about passports. of the coalition partners. 963 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 964

I do not, however, pay tribute to people who believe The Minister said on 9 June that the civil libertarians their own rhetoric. I have done it myself, and it is not a were in the ascendant in the Conservative party today good idea. Eventually one comes to believe things that and that is true, but let us not confuse libertarianism are not true, such as the idea that the last Government with liberty. Let us not confuse being concerned about took away our civil liberties and were intent on strengthening out and out libertarianism with authoritarianism. These the authoritarianism of the state. I am very sad that are not opposites; they are nuanced issues and they are people who are standing for senior office in my party difficult to deal with in government at a time of—whatever have also bought the myth that a second-generation Ministers may feel—continuing risk. I should also point biometric register somehow took away the civil liberties out that we must ensure that we move as the international of the British people. However, we lost the election, and community moves, because I guarantee that within those of us who believed that we were doing the right 30 years second-generation biometrics will be used for thing lost a level of the debate that was crucial to the international passport purposes. continuation of the scheme. Finally, I say just three words: rest in peace. I am very happy to pay tribute to Lord Howard as the father of the modern scheme. We did not have the 5.9 pm facility of second-generation biometrics when he advocated the scheme in 1996. However, he at least understood Keith Vaz: It is a great pleasure to follow the former that if we were going to control unwarranted immigration, Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for deal with the rising level of fraud, which was minuscule Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), compared with the level today, and tackle the verification who took us all the way back to the birth of ID cards and authentication of genuine identity not least in and has now read out their last rites in the Chamber of respect of access to what are, uniquely, free public the House of Commons. I do not think he should take services such as the NHS, we needed something better the criticism of the last Labour Government personally. than the passport as we had it then, and, it has to be People say many things in leadership election campaigns. said, as we have it today even with the improvements in Let us see what happens next week when, in opposition, the photographic evidence. we have an opportunity to fashion our new policies. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend for all he did as I wish the Government well in implementing e-Borders Home Secretary on so many issues to do with his in their border police force. I do not know how that will portfolio. enhance the sophistication of addressing illegal entry into the country or the identification of those who are I also pay tribute to the Minister. Anyone who has already illegally here given that when in 2004 we introduced followed Home Office debates over the past few years the registration system for the extended European Union since he has been on the Front Bench will have noted A8 nationals we found that 40% of the people who the enthusiasm, delight and intellectual vigour that he registered were already in the country before the freedom put into the campaign against identity cards. I am sure of movement regulations had come into being for those it gives him great satisfaction to be here to read the last new EU entrant countries. I do not know how the rites of the identity cards and to do so very modestly. I Government are going to do this, therefore, but I wish suppose that when faced with the Liberal Democrats, them well in trying. the Conservative party, the Scottish National party, Justice and Liberty—a very odd combination—it is This evening, I merely want to say that I speak as probably right that the official Opposition have, in a someone who has spent years persuading their senior sense, thrown in the towel. The shadow Minister accepted colleagues in Cabinet to go in a particular direction and that there was no appetite among Labour Members to who has taken the slings and arrows of being accused of oppose the Bill on Second Reading and she tabled some being authoritarian because they genuinely believe that carefully thought-out amendments, but the Government, updating the evidence that is already taken for the with their majority and with this Bill as a central part of passport and the driving licence makes sense as it will their Home Office agenda, have got their Bill through, be genuinely authentic—as opposed to the myth we after only 12 weeks. peddle that somehow the identity documents we use are genuinely verifiable when they are not. In short, I speak I hope that the Minister will take seriously—I know as someone who has been told that they have betrayed that he will—the concerns expressed about the destruction the civil liberties and historical rights of people in this of data. The Select Committee on Home Affairs will be country when they have not, yet my only regret is that, writing to him in two months’ time. I know that he did having spent so much time having to put up with the not give that as the absolute timetable, but he mentioned black looks of Lord Prescott and the grumbles of our two months and then a further two months, and he then former Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member said that this would depend on what happens in the for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), and having other place. I do not think that it will be a problem eventually won the decision in government and started there, so by Christmas or, at least, by the new year we to implement the policy, I find that I am defeated at the should be in a position to know that these data have last hurdle. been destroyed. I am sure that we will be writing to him to ensure that now that the funeral is over, the ashes will All I can say is congratulations to those who have be scattered in about four months’ time. won and commiserations to those who were misled into believing that ID cards would cost £2.5 billion and there 5.11 pm were therefore going to be major savings from scrapping them, rather than the sum of £84 million over four Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): This years. I say commiserations to those who feel they were is indeed an historic occasion and it is gratifying that taking a great step yet find that that step has not led the coalition has been able to deliver so early in its life them anywhere new at all. such a significant change and such an improvement in 965 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 966

[Tom Brake] I still do not know what Labour Members’ response to ID cards is. They have not opposed them in any way. our civil liberties. This is clearly the first stage in a much They supported Second Reading—or abstained—and wider programme. Members on the Government Benches they proposed tame, minimal amendments in Committee. have been accused of being obsessed with civil liberties, We have heard a lot of huff and puff today about but it is a sign of how regressive or repressive the compensation, but I still do not know what the Labour Labour Government had become that they characterised party’s approach to ID cards is. I would like to hear— supporters and defenders of civil liberties as people, or perhaps in the summing up—whether it has now dropped Members, who were obsessed with that subject over and the whole idea. I hope that it has, because Labour above any other. should come home. We need the Labour party in opposition The right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and to come home to its civil libertarian past. Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) spoke of the so-called myth that the previous Government had an agenda that was Julie Hilling: When poor people in the hon. Gentleman’s contrary to civil liberties. However, they gave us identity constituency want to open a bank account or do any of cards, which we no longer have. We also had pre-charge the many things for which people need to prove their detention, control orders, fingerprinting in schools and identity, if they do not drive and do not have utility bills DNA retention. In my view, that constituted a full-frontal how will they prove their identity in his new free world? assault on our civil liberties, and we are right to try to redress the balance. He also said that there might be Pete Wishart: This is the thing that the Labour party only £84 million-worth of savings—I do not know consistently refuses to appreciate and understand. ID whether he actually used the word “only”. Even if that cards were an attempt to change the whole nature of the figure is indeed right, in the current context those are relationship between the individual and the state. That savings that we need to achieve. was what they were about. People in groups such as Liberty and NO2ID did not oppose ID cards because In my view, and that of the coalition Government, they were a nice cuddly little thing that would help this Bill is just the first step in a programme of rebuilding people to access services—they opposed them because and restoring our reputation as a nation that values civil they were a new element to the relationship between liberties and is willing to defend them whenever they are state and individual. That was why ID cards became so under assault. hated throughout the nation.

5.13 pm Mr Blunkett: The hon. Gentleman is emotionally attached to the idea of the perniciousness of the scheme, Pete Wishart: Good riddance to the most thoroughly but I want gently to test how far his libertarianism bad rubbish. Thank goodness we are standing on the would go. There are two states in the United States brink of getting rid of the pernicious and hated ID where a blind person can obtain a licence to own a gun. cards. They were new Labour ID cards—NLID cards, One of those states does not require a blind person to as I called them in the previous debate—created solely have a driving licence— by the previous Government. They are now thankfully being abolished, and I give great credit to the coalition Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. That Government for being able to introduce this Bill so point is wide of Third Reading, but is a good try none quickly. Thank goodness we are getting shot of these the less. cards today. I also wish to pay tribute to the many campaigners Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): It was a good who fought so hard and long to ensure that we never point. saw ID cards introduced in this country. I am referring to NO2ID, Liberty and all the other groups that were Pete Wishart: It was a good point, and you have out there campaigning. This became a real election rescued me, Mr Deputy Speaker, because I would have issue, and I am sure that other hon. Members also found it pretty hard to respond to it. I am grateful to the found that it was regularly raised in the hustings. People right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and talked about Labour’s creeping authoritarian state and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) for intervening, because I its anti-civil libertarian agenda, and how Labour must want to pay tribute to him, too, in the course of all this. be stopped. Thankfully, today is the day that we can put Of course, ID cards were his child. He argued them to bed not just ID cards but, I hope, the whole anti-civil through Cabinet and, as he said in his speech, he had all libertarian agenda that the Labour party tried to foist sorts of opposition and he fought his corner. However, on us. he has left the Labour party a dreadful legacy. I hope This Bill has been relatively easy for the Liberals and that it can join the rest of us—where it should be—in Conservatives as well as for those of us in the Scottish ensuring that we can continue to hold this Conservative National party and other national parties. We opposed Government to account. these things—we hated them and we wanted rid of It was great when the Conservatives were in them. This has been a real challenge for Labour party opposition—of course they were against the anti-civil Members and I have watched their agony throughout libertarian agenda—but we will have to watch them like this Bill. I did not know whether they were going to hawks in government, and we need the Labour party on oppose it or support it. I had to wait for the right hon. board for that task. We need the Labour party to help Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan to hold the Conservatives to account, because I have a Johnson) to get to his feet to know whether it would be sneaking suspicion that once they have had a good start the first line of the next Labour manifesto or whether and once they have their feet under the table, they will they were going to support the scrapping. start to consider several issues and the old Conservatives 967 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 968 will start to come back. We will start to see that move Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) said and has begun to towards the authoritarianism that was a trademark of believe his own rhetoric, entertaining though it was to so many previous Governments. I appeal to the Labour listen to. It might be helpful if I explain to him and to party to help us to hold the Government to account and the rest of the House the position of the official Opposition. to get rid of the opposition to this. They should say, I remind the House that although many things are said “Good riddance” and be thankful that we have got rid in election campaigns, what happens in reality when of ID cards. people have power is often very different. We have a This runs through the whole history of Labour and good example of that in front of us in the form of the ID cards. We never even knew what they were for—that coalition Government, but I shall say no more on that. was the great thing. We did not know what they were Her Majesty’s Opposition recognise the Government’s supposed to achieve. When the right hon. Member for clear position and the reality of the maths. We know Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough introduced them—he that both parties were elected on manifestos to get rid can correct me if I get this wrong—his intention was of ID cards and that the Bill is the fruition of what is a that there would be a fully compulsory scheme, so that fairly rare point of agreement. Indeed, only on Monday everybody in the UK would have to hold an ID card. the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, That, I believe, was his intention and that was what he the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne wanted to try to deliver. As he tried to get the scheme Featherstone), was speaking with enthusiasm about her through, the opposition started to kick in. Opposition position when she was in opposition and had to be to the idea seemed to be growing and growing, so we quickly reminded of something by her Parliamentary saw the reasons behind ID cards changing. The scheme Private Secretary, who passed her a note. She then changed into a voluntary scheme that not only would swiftly began to read an alternative position from the keep us safe but could be used to make sure that we coalition agreement, so we know that sometimes things could buy services. I believe that being able to play the are said but then change. However, the reality is that lottery was one of the great reasons we were given to both parties agreed on this point and we recognise that have an ID card. They became not so much ID cards as that gives the Government a mandate. We are not here super cards that would solve all society’s ills. to oppose for the sake of opposition, but we feel that the Bill sweeps aside many important things. Mr Blunkett: I promise not to divert us from the On Second Reading, the Minister said that the Bill is issue, Mr Deputy Speaker. I do not remember anyone symbolic—and it is for him and his Government. It is on our side—certainly not me—talking about being also ideologically based and very rushed. Had he been able to use the lottery. in his Department a bit longer and had other Ministers in that Department and in government thought things Pete Wishart: It might not have been the right hon. through, they might rue the day they swept away the Gentleman who said that and I am sorry if I have baby with the bathwater. The Bill has the serious characterised him in that way. I believe that his true consequence of removing the option to have fingerprints intention was to have everyone signed up to a mandatory in passports, which the identity register allowed. That ID card; that was the first attempt and agenda of the would have updated the passport database to allow for Labour party when it introduced the idea. All the way the very secure retention of that important biometric. through the difficult conception and birth of the ID card, there was no real consistency in the way in which The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire is Labour tried to get it through. That has been the very exercised about data being held by the state. I am difficulty throughout the whole experience. sure that he must have a passport for travel and I Labour’s opposition to the Bill has been woeful—not wonder whether he has ever given a moment’s thought knowing whether to support it or not and making some to where passport information is held. As I reminded caustic comments about compensation; that has been members of the public and others up and down the its attitude—but there is light at the end of the tunnel. country during many of my roadshows, visits and talks According to all the opinion polls, it looks as though about this issue over three years, 80% of us have a the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward passport and that information is held securely. We have Miliband) might win the Labour leadership election a good Passport Service, but what we proposed was a and he has said that ID cards were a step too far. He more secure approach. I shall not dwell on what we talks about the fact that they were not a good idea and could have done or what we would do differently again, says that there should be no further backing for them. but it is an important principle of the Opposition that Perhaps we will start to get the Labour party back on the passport should be secure not only now but in board; I certainly hope so. future. The new design for a more secure physical passport that I signed off earlier in the year has been Today has been a thoroughly good day. I congratulate unveiled and produced in the Blaydon constituency. We the Minister on taking the Bill through in his usual wanted greater security with fingerprinting, but the manner—with good grace and listening to some of the Government have effectively abandoned that. arguments and representations—and on a job well done. This day is the end of ID cards, and thank goodness for Interestingly, the Bill sets the tone for the way in that. Good riddance to them and let us hope that we which the Government wish to work. It was brought never see their likes again. forward in quite a rush. We finally managed today to extract from the Government the fact that there was no consultation on the Bill, so mentions in manifestos and 5.21 pm on individuals’ blogs seem to be the way in which the Meg Hillier: The hon. Member for Perth and North Government choose to consult. We also know that the Perthshire (Pete Wishart) has done exactly as my right Bill’s impact assessment was inadequate, which is sad, hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and given that one of the Ministers responsible for the Bill is 969 Identity Documents Bill15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Identity Documents Bill 970

[Meg Hillier] I thank hon. Members who have played an important part in developing our policy and supporting my Front- also the Minister for Equalities. Labour Members will Bench role. The Opposition’s redoubtable team has watch closely to ensure that such sloppiness does not mostly consisted of newly elected Back Benchers, who take place in the future, and I hope that Ministers have been committed to addressing the Bill. I put on acknowledge that they have a responsibility to do their record my thanks to the former right hon. Members for jobs thoroughly and properly. Redditch, for Norwich South and for Airdrie and Shotts, We look forward to hearing more about the transgender the last of whom will no doubt give the Bill a run for its issue raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton money in the other place, as well as my right hon. West (Julie Hilling). We tried to put in place something Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and that would make the best of a bad job in this regard, but Hillsborough. It is rare that a junior Front-Bench the Government removed that option overnight without spokesman has such support from a series of former any recognition of that fact. No full solution is forthcoming, Home Secretaries, but they have been incredibly supportive so we ask the Government to report to Parliament as and helpful. progress is made on the issue. I ask the Minister with We are not yet dancing on the grave of identity cards. responsibility for passports to write to me around Christmas I live in hope that the Government will see the error of or in January to let me know what progress has been their ways and that, despite this Bill, they will revisit the made, and to place a copy of the letter in the Library. I issue of passport biometrics. I look forward to seeing have been contacted by many people who would be how the Bill progresses in the Lords. grateful for such information. A lot of them do not have Question put and agreed to. voices of their own, but they will be looking closely at Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. how the House scrutinises the issue and have made it clear that they want to know what is going on. PETITION The Bill prevents the Government from collecting and storing fingerprints, which means that the British Dolphins (Japan) passport will fall behind international standards relatively quickly, although international passports improve over 5.30 pm years. Over time, British citizens will be forced to pay Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab): My constituent, for visas when they make certain international visits. Alice Cheney, from Great Clifton near Workington, The Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have brought me this petition because she feels strongly that indicated that they favour biometrics on passports and there is a need to raise awareness both nationally and increasing passport security, so I wonder whether the internationally about the slaughter of thousands, if not Bill has been fully squared in government. We hear that tens of thousands, of dolphins each year in the waters the Government are halting the use of fingerprints, but around Japan. She notes that it is estimated that some we do not know for how long. I hope that they will 23,000 dolphins are slaughtered each year just in the consider putting that back on the table because we all area of Taijii. She is also concerned that the dolphin have a genuine interest in ensuring that the British meat produced after the slaughter is contaminated. The public are safe when they travel and that our identity petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons documents are as secure as possible. The use of fingerprints urges the Government to take steps to raise awareness also helps to tackle identity fraud because many criminals of the slaughter of dolphins and urges the Foreign have multiple identities, yet fingerprints are one of the Secretary to call on the Japanese Government to prevent surest ways of prevention. the distribution of contaminated dolphin meat. I know that Ministers take seriously the Home Office’s Following is the full text of the petition: responsibility to do everything in its power to protect [The Petition of residents of Workington, people—that is the Department’s raison d’être—but the Bill throws out the baby with the bathwater. The Opposition Declares that the petitioners believe that there is a need would revisit the issue of biometrics on passports, even to raise awareness both nationally and internationally though I give no commitment about what we would do about the slaughter of thousands of dolphins each year in on identity cards, given that we will shortly be under the waters around Japan; notes that it is estimated that new leadership. However, if we were to get into power in some 23,000 dolphins are slaughtered each year in the five years’ time, we would be in a different place than if area of Taijii; further declares that the petitioners believe we were not to get into power—heaven forefend—for that there is a need to raise awareness for the majority of 10 years. We recognise that we will have to deal with the Japanese citizens, who are unaware that this is going on in landscape that we face at the time. I would hope that their country; and notes that the petitioners believe that that landscape would involve fingerprints for passports, the dolphin meat which is highly contaminated is being but the Bill does not make that look likely. distributed to an unaware Japanese public protected by a government that knows the dangers of this practice and The Bill’s refusal of any recompense to those who the risks to health it poses. bought cards in good faith is mean-spirited, as is the fact that we have had no opportunity to press for The Petitioners therefore request that the House of refunds, which was the reason why some of the new Commons urges the Government to take steps to raise clauses that we tabled were complex. As I said, no awareness of the slaughter of dolphins and urges the proper account was taken of the equalities impact. If I Foreign Secretary to call on the Japanese Government to was to be particularly mean, I would suggest that the prevent the distribution of contaminated dolphin meat. mean-spirited nature of the Bill is a metaphor for the And the Petitioners remain, etc.] Government as we approach tough spending decisions. [P000860] 971 15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Military Aviation Industry 972

Military Aviation Industry it is not just an industry that we lead, but one of huge potential growth both in the realm of military technology Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House and for civilian use. We live in an unstable world, and as do now adjourn.—(Jeremy Wright.) part of the security and strategic defence review we have considered all sorts of threats. They include an increased 5.31 pm risk of piracy, the need to defend key oil installations Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): Thank you, Mr Deputy and tackling human trafficking. Unmanned aircraft in Speaker, for granting me the time and the opportunity their various forms are a fantastic way of including to hold my first Adjournment debate. It may be my first flexibility in one’s military capability in order to address Adjournment debate, but the topic is one on which I a number of those risks. Aircraft such as HERTI are have spoken many times, both in the House and locally flexible enough to allow civilian operators to take on in the constituency. It is no less a subject than the future some of those roles, leading to less reliance on Governments. of UK military aircraft production. Typhoon, or the Eurofighter as some people may The debate could not be more timely. Only last week, know it, is primarily built at Warton, but work has also unfortunately, BAE Systems, which has its military been done at Samlesbury, and there has been talk headquarters in Warton in my constituency, announced recently about the importance of tranche 3B and why it potentially 1,000 job losses. I know that BAE Systems is crucial for the RAF to place orders. I appreciate that and the trade unions are working hard to minimise that when it comes to the lack of money in the defence eventual figure, but it serves as timely notice to us that budget, we are in unprecedented times, and I know that the issue is not one of numbers or technology. It concerns the Minister has to take some incredibly difficult decisions. people’s lives, jobs and the UK maintaining a sovereign Members will not like some of those decisions, but I capability in an area in which we are currently world believe that tranche 3B is very important and Typhoon leaders. is a first-class aircraft, so I make an appeal to him once I refer to comments made by the Prime Minister and again. When he looks at it, he should do everything that the Chancellor of the Exchequer shortly after the election, he can to ensure that there is the potential in the RAF when they said that one of the most important things for 3B. that we had to do as a nation was to rebalance the However, we have to look beyond 3B, because the economy, and rebalancing the economy was about being real prize is in Typhoon’s export potential, because that less reliant on services and moving on to manufacturing. is where the jobs, the foreign currency and the futures of It was about jobs being in the north rather in than the people in my constituency will lie. Many Members will south. It was about jobs with high export potential that be familiar with the export orders that have been placed earned serious money for this country. I can think of no with Saudi Arabia and BAE Systems’ work in that other sector that ticks all those boxes more than the UK country and throughout the middle east, but I call upon military aircraft division. the Government to continue that excellent work and I know that you, Mr Evans, and your fellow Deputy gradually drive forward the work of BAE Systems and Speaker, the hon. Member for Chorley (Mr Hoyle), are its work force in securing those export orders. I refer the precluded from taking part in the debate by the office Minister to the Prime Minister’s recent visit to India, that you hold, but that both of you have a long-standing where we secured a substantial order for Hawk jets, record as doughty defenders of the UK military aircraft because I do not believe that BAE Systems, great though sector. it is, could have achieved that without significant In the north-west the industry is the engine room of Government help at the highest level. the entire regional economy. From Warton, Samlesbury and the other plants that we have, tens of thousands of Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): I thank the hon. component suppliers and many, many small shops and Gentleman for securing this debate. Does he agree that taxi firms gain a living from the work that is done there. UK defence contracts with BAE Systems also importantly In this debate I shall focus on a few key areas—the enhance our export capability, and that any reduction future of the Typhoon programme, the exports that we in UK defence contract spending will affect our capacity can potentially derive from that, and the unmanned to export? aircraft programme which, I am proud to say, is being developed at Warton. There are some Members in the Mark Menzies: The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting House who say that we should not be concerned about point. We cannot be totally reliant on exports, because, having a UK military aircraft capability, that sovereign if the RAF buys and uses something, that is a more capability was for yesteryear, and that we should be powerful pitch than any sales brochure, so we have to buying off the shelf. What they seem to forget is that the ensure that the UK armed forces continue to place UK is the shelf. We are world leaders in most of this significant orders for UK military aircraft. I agree that technology. When it comes to unmanned aircraft, the exports are not the only solution, but, in a tough work is not done in the United States. They are not the economic climate, we need to invest a considerable world leaders, they are not at the cutting edge and they amount of energy in securing such exports. do not have the talented people. The work is done here I say to the Minister, please let us not be shy about in the United Kingdom—in the north-west, in Lancashire, getting behind BAE Systems when securing exports. in Warton and in Samlesbury. That is where the talent The French are not shy, the Americans wheel out Barack lies, and those are the people whom I am here to Obama and the Russians wheel out Vladimir Putin. So, represent this evening. let us leave no stone unturned and use every weapon in I therefore call on the Minister, when he makes his our armoury to ensure that the United Kingdom is out remarks, to reflect on the importance of the future of there putting forward what I passionately believe to be a the unmanned aircraft industry to this country, because world-class product built by a world-class work force, 973 Military Aviation Industry15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Military Aviation Industry 974

[Mark Menzies] is always a risk, especially with high unemployment in the US, that the Americans will be looking to US securing defence orders for this country and vast amounts manufacturing to take on what are essentially US jobs. of foreign currency potential. I call upon the Minister The Eurofighter keeps that anchor in the UK and in to support me in that. Lancashire. We have 6,500 people working at Warton and about 5,000 at Samlesbury, but it is not just about numbers—it Mark Menzies: The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting is about the quality of those jobs. Two hundred apprentices concern. However, I am sure, from my conversations are currently going through BAE Systems military aircraft with BAE Systems, that the nature of the contract is division. robust enough, and the commitments from this Government are clear enough, that there will be a good future at Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): Does my hon. Friend Samlesbury. The Minister is bound by a difficulty in agree that there is a huge impact in terms of knowledge being able to give details about the F-35, but any that he and skills that are transferable throughout manufacturing can provide will be incredibly welcome. as a result of the aerospace industry, that many of the techniques and technological advances that are developed I want to be generous in giving others time, because I feed through into manufacturing in the UK generally, know that colleagues wish to make some points. My and that having a thriving, successful aerospace industry final point is that the future of the UK military aircraft will have a huge impact on British manufacturing? division, which is based at Warton but also has a significant element at Samlesbury, is not just about the Mark Menzies: My hon. Friend makes a very valid regional economy of the north-west, or about jobs, vital point. He is on the record as speaking up for jobs and though those matters are. It is about the UK being skills in this country. serious about ever again being able to play a role A layman could be accused of thinking of the jobs at through a strategic, sovereign capability to manufacture Warton as being about metal-bashing and nuts and our own aircraft, own our own technology, develop our bolts, but far from it. We are talking about people who own high-tech skills base and continue to be a world are at the cutting edge of design and computer leader in what we do. It is also fundamental to achieving technology—the sorts of things that I, as a mere Member the objective of rebalancing the economy that the Prime of Parliament, struggle to get my head around. They Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer have set are absolute world leaders in their field, and they are out. If we fail to take that into account and to get our people—Lancashire people, on the whole. They behind the UK military aircraft sector, not only will the have spent their whole lives honing their skills at Warton— north-west lose out but the entire UK economy will be they were not invented: they were grown. We need to much the poorer. I ask the Minister to get behind recognise the contribution that those skills make to the exports, do what he can for the future of the F-35 and economy, as well as their transferable nature and the the Typhoon, and let us really make a difference. fact that many component manufacturers can look to the military aircraft division and take some of the 5.45 pm lessons from that sector to use in their own sectors. Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op): I congratulate Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): Does my hon. my neighbour, the hon. Member for Fylde (Mark Menzies), Friend accept that not only the people at Warton and on securing the debate. I reiterate his point that I am Samlesbury are involved in this, but the people at Rolls- sure your fellow Deputy Speakers would have loved to Royce who develop and build the engines and avionics? speak in the debate, Madam Deputy Speaker. Indeed, I In making his comments on the Eurofighter, would he am sure that you would have been keen to take part as like to include the F-35, which is being developed, well, given the constituency interest. alongside in the USA, at Samlesbury and at Warton? It Aerospace is an industry that touches every part of would be helpful if my hon. Friend the Minister, or even the UK economy, including the south-west, but nowhere the Prime Minister, could get some clarity from the more than the north-west. We in the north-west are American Administration on how they intend to progress extremely concerned about the job losses that will almost development of the engine for the F-35. That would definitely occur there in the coming months, particularly create thousands of jobs, because that aeroplane is at Samlesbury and Warton. We know that 149 jobs are needed in vast quantities by the USA. Those are the likely to go at the former and 298 at the latter. Having very products that are being built in the UK, at Rolls-Royce spoken to both management and the unions, we are and in Samlesbury, for the new F-35 fighter. aware of the reduction in work on Airbus components Mark Menzies: I wholeheartedly endorse what my at Samlesbury. I am sure that that matter also affects hon. Friend has said about the F-35. Indeed, we are your constituents at Filton, Madam Deputy Speaker. very lucky this evening to be joined by members of the We know about the valuable work on the Tornado, the trade union movement from Samlesbury who are in the Harrier and the Hawk that has taken place at Warton in Public Gallery. Before I came into the Chamber, I was the past. I will be honest in saying that the announcements reminded of the importance of the F-35. Were I to about reductions in the Tornado and Harrier fleets were forget to mention it, I would have very much failed in made before the general election, but we are also concerned my duty to represent their wishes. about future plans. I shall touch on that later. The work force have been given something like 90 days Graham Jones: One of the worries is that if the to be consulted by the management on jobs. Hundreds Eurofighter is withdrawn to a significant extent from of jobs were lost in the industry last year, including at Samlesbury, we run the risk of part of the development the Warton and Samlesbury plants. We hoped that there of the F-35 being withdrawn to the United States. There would then be a tailing-off of job losses, and I am angry 975 Military Aviation Industry15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Military Aviation Industry 976 that they are continuing and are likely to continue humans used to do, and a section of an aircraft that further as a result of the Government’s strategic defence used to be made of 100 parts can now be made of two review. or three. I would not try to be party political on We must attempt to minimise job losses where possible. manufacturing. Nobody did more to defend jobs than I do not want anybody from either plant to be made the previous Labour Government. Every contract that compulsorily redundant. However, I understand that could be given to British Aerospace, which is now called they just about scraped through last year with voluntary BAE Systems, was given to it, and order books were redundancies, so it will be much more difficult this year. full. We were looking forward to decades of further Many workers there who are friends of mine, and their production at the company, so we will not take any families, are concerned about their economic future and lessons from the Conservatives. their careers, having spent decades at the two plants that are going under. John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): My hon. Friend’s point about general manufacturing is It is particularly heartbreaking that many skilled important, but does he agree that defence industry manufacturing jobs have gone abroad over the past five manufacturing has been completely different from much decades, especially with the growth of the European of the rest of the picture? Defence manufacturing has Community, now the European Union, and globalisation. been a strength in the past 10 years, especially given the The north-west is proud that we still have a much higher number of jobs that have been created. The danger is percentage of the population engaged in manufacturing that we could lose capacity over the next decade and the than elsewhere, and in the Preston and central Lancashire capability to lead the world in a range of areas, including, area the percentage is the highest in the country. That is of course, shipbuilding. under threat now. We have been making aircraft in the Preston area for Mark Hendrick: My hon. Friend makes a very important more than 100 years, and aircraft that fought in both point. We are not here to talk about aircraft carriers, world wars were built in and around my constituency. but they are important to the future of both Warton They used to be built to fight against countries such as and Samlesbury. Manufacturing the two aircraft carriers Germany. We now build aircraft in co-operation with in places such as Barrow would support many industries Germany. Europe has been at peace for decades and we in the north and north-west, but they are under want that to continue. Indeed, we want peace on a consideration in the strategic defence review. Bluntly, if global scale, but while there is no guarantee of that, the carriers do not go ahead, the need for the aircraft to defence equipment will always be needed, and it must go on them will be called into question, as will our share be manufactured. This country is particularly good at of the F-35 joint strike fighter programme. We are that and has an extremely high technological base. currently guaranteed 12 to 15% of those contracts with I trained as an electronics engineer and computer Lockheed Martin. The Government are sailing close to scientist. I worked in those jobs in my professional life the wind when it comes to maintaining our share of in both the public and the private sectors before entering that work unless a commitment is made to the aircraft politics. As the hon. Member for Fylde said, engineering carriers. is not about metal-bashing. Of course, many skills, We are playing for high stakes, because at threat is the including metal-bashing, have survived for generations, future of Britain as a defence manufacturing nation. but many of the skills that are coming on stream are We have lost a lot of consumer manufacturing to the highly technical and advanced, particularly in computer- likes of Germany, Japan and China, and it is essential aided design, and we are the envy of the world in many that we maintain our expertise and technological base areas of manufacturing. We lead the world in stealth in defence manufacturing. Otherwise, not only will the technology—I have seen the world-beating stealth jobs and livelihoods of people in the north-west economy technology manufactured at Warton—and are ahead of suffer, but the nation will suffer, because we will not the Americans, the Israelis and the French. The hon. punch the same weight or have the same GDP. We will Gentleman also mentioned the unmanned vehicles that be a much poorer nation as a result. Aerospace is the we are developing. jewel in the north-west’s economic crown. We have already lost many manufacturing industries On the strategic defence review, the Typhoon programme to countries such as Germany, Japan and China, particularly is extremely important. Exports are important, as is in the consumer electronics field, but one area in which take-up by the four partner nations in that programme. we excel is the manufacture of defence equipment. We Before the general election, I was disappointed to see need that to continue, which is why we should do the Liberal Democrats make it plain that they would everything in our power to protect jobs and the high-tech not continue tranche 3B of the Eurofighter Typhoon, industries such as those in the north-west. against the wishes of many in the north-west. It is a disgrace that so many Liberal Democrats can take a Andrew Griffiths: The hon. Gentleman mentioned view that threatens so many jobs in the north-west, the loss of manufacturing jobs overseas. Does he agree especially when so many were silent on the issue during that in 13 years under the previous Government, there the election, especially my opponent in Preston. The was an unprecedented collapse in manufacturing in this Labour Government signed up to tranche 3A, so we country, when it declined three times faster than under showed our commitment, and I call on the Government Margaret Thatcher? to show their commitment not only to Typhoon, but to Mark Hendrick: I accept that there has been a loss of the aircraft carriers, the design and preparation for jobs in manufacturing, but that trend has continued which are well under way. since the 1960s under Governments of both persuasions. The skills of a generation of the work force at Warton I say that as an engineer rather than as a politician. As and Samlesbury will be put at risk. Last year, 200 jobs technology advances, computers can do many jobs that went at Samlesbury, leaving only 4,200 jobs. The hon. 977 Military Aviation Industry15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Military Aviation Industry 978

[Mark Hendrick] take seriously the promotion of UK exports. I heard it time and time again, even from active trade unionists, Member for Fylde mentioned the figure of 5,000, that BAE Systems— but 4,200 is the actual figure—a loss of more than 25%. The situation is similar at Warton. I do not want Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): Does my to see anyone lose their job, but it is surprising that hon. Friend think that the absence of the Opposition executive jobs have not been greatly affected. Only one Front-Bench team is a further sign of the importance executive job will be lost over both sites, which seems they place on this matter? unbalanced. The announcement that 1,000 jobs will be lost across Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. the country in BAE Systems is a tragedy, but I shudder This is an Adjournment debate, so the hon. Gentleman’s to think what the strategic defence review will reveal point is not relevant. I hope that Members will return to after November when it is completed. That announcement the aviation industry. may be just the tip of the iceberg of job losses, and the Government will rue the day if they make significant Paul Maynard: Export industry is crucial, and improved cuts and these major programmes disappear, as those Government support for it— decisions will be reflected at the ballot box at the next general election. John Woodcock: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

5.58 pm Paul Maynard: No, I am not prepared to give way. Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): John Woodcock: The hon. Gentleman gave way to his I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Fylde hon. Friend just now. (Mark Menzies) on securing this debate. Unlike the hon. Member for Preston (Mark Hendrick), I do not Paul Maynard: No, I am sorry. I am not prepared to intend to tempt the Minister to prejudge the outcome of give way. the strategic defence review, nor will I engage in self- As my hon. Friend the Member for Fylde said, a indulgent scaremongering about possible outcomes. There recent trip to India resulted in a much improved Hawk are more than enough armchair generals, bath-tub admirals order. However, I would like to make one observation and heaven knows who else opining in the letters columns to the Minister that I hope he will bear in mind. There is of the national press about what form the future force no finer advertisement for the British military aviation configuration should take, and we do not need to industry than the Red Arrows. I hope that he will bear debate that tonight. that in mind when he is considering the wider issues of Mark Hendrick: I do not want to hog the debate, as I the strategic defence review. have already spoken at length but the hon. Gentleman Tonight’s debate should not be about BAE Systems will recognise that before the general election we made only. I realise it is a major player in the UK military it plain that we would cut the deficit by 50% over four aviation industry, but it is not the sole player. In the years. With a party now in government saying it will north-west, we have the North West Aerospace Alliance, attempt to cut the deficit totally in five years, hon. which has made an enormous effort to develop a world-class Members can draw their own conclusions. supply chain that includes not just BAE Systems— Paul Maynard: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that Graham Jones: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? intervention, but people’s jobs depend on decisions being made now, and I do not intend to engage in Paul Maynard: If I must. self-indulgent scaremongering. He may wish to do so on behalf of his constituents, to whom he is responsible, Graham Jones: Put simply, if the RAF or the British but I do not intend to adopt a similar position. Government will not buy Typhoons, why should any other country? It is a really poor advert. Does the hon. John Woodcock: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Gentleman accept that the strength of our exports will come from our confidence in our own products and UK Paul Maynard: No, because I have a number of manufacturing base? He seems to be arguing the opposite, things I want to say. which I do not fully understand. That an important We are here to discuss the UK military aviation point that he needs to focus on— industry, not the outcomes of the strategic defence review. There are two important aspects to consider. Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. This is an Adjournment First, there are the potential changes to UK Government debate, which is going a little longer tonight because of orders that we do not know about, and which we will the time. The debate is in the name of the hon. Member not find out about tonight, however much Opposition for Fylde (Mark Menzies). [Interruption.] Will the hon. Members may wish otherwise. I do not expect that, and Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul I am sure that many other Conservative Members do Maynard) please resume his seat while I am on my feet? not expect it either. However, we can discuss the important Thank you. Interventions are to be brief. It is a Back-Bench steps taken by the Government to promote exports. I debate and should refer to the title and subject of the was interested to hear the hon. Member for Preston debate. If Members want to speak, they should stand (Mark Hendrick) discuss the need to improve exports. and hope they get in. The hon. Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) said it was no substitute for investment by the UK Government. Paul Maynard: I appreciate your guidance, Madam We had 13 years of a Labour Government who failed to Deputy Speaker. 979 Military Aviation Industry15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Military Aviation Industry 980

I want to talk about the importance of sovereign science education is somehow in decline. When I was capability in terms of our military aviation industry. fortunate enough to tour BAE Systems in Warton, I Many people might regard the notion of sovereign saw many highly skilled people who had engaged in capability as something nostalgic. At the moment, we scientific educational training. They had their physics are celebrating the 70th anniversary of the battle of and their chemistry: they knew what they were doing Britain, and many people are saying how fortunate we when it came to science. That is one important reason were in those days to be able to generate our own for ensuring that we emphasise why more students aircraft, make them within our own shores and defend should get science-based qualifications that lead to our shores against our enemies, and that we should careers in important defence-based industries—in particular continue that in the future. I would be cautious, however, military aviation—and underpin the protection of our about basing any arguments for sovereign capability on sovereign capability. nostalgia, tempting as that might be, but sovereign I hope that the Minister will take both those ideas capability matters. It is an important concept that the away and do something with them. Sovereign capability Government have to buy into, because we do not know matters. It needs to be more than just a phrase that gets what is around the corner or what the future holds. We deployed in debates such as this, and we need to do do not know whether we can rely on those on whom we more than depend on nostalgia to underpin it. I hope have relied in the past. The world is full of unknowns, that he will consider that. We have something that we and sovereign capability is our sole protection from can be enormously proud of in the UK military aviation them. industry but, like anything, it must be constantly burnished I therefore ask the Government to consider carefully and kept up to scratch. I hope that the Minister will tell the ways in which they can support sovereign capability, us how he intends to do that when he responds to this and to look beyond defining it simply in terms of debate. whether shipyard X or aircraft factory Y remains open. With regard to military aviation, I ask the Minister to consider how the Government can use some of the 6.9 pm things that they are already doing to protect sovereign John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): capability, in particular through the important changes I had not originally intended to speak in this debate. I being made with the introduction of local enterprise will try to make my contribution brief, but it is important partnerships. It is important that the Ministry of Defence to make a contribution, in part to correct some of the speak to other Departments to consider how the newly misconceptions spread by the previous speech and, to emerging LEPs can best be allocated to strategic areas, an extent, by previous interventions. which can then underpin particular subsections of the First, I agree with the hon. Member for Blackpool defence industry.A good example would be the application North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) on sovereign by Blackpool, Fylde and Wyre to have a local enterprise capability. It is important that we maintain that in the partnership focusing on the aeronautical supply chain, years ahead. The aviation industry in the north-west which I discussed earlier. That is one way in which offers prime examples of the ways in which we have Government innovation can help to support sovereign been able to lead the world in that regard, and it is vital capability without having to invest just to keep things that we continue to do so. I hope that the Minister will open. bear this in mind as we approach at breakneck speed the conclusions of the strategic defence and security David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): review. One thing that must also be considered when talking about the area of north-west England for which my Hon. Members on both sides of the House should hon. Friend is a Member—quite a few Members are support the Government’s drive to improve the standing from there—is that places such as Samlesbury and of our exports. We can sustain many jobs by increasing Warton form an area of excellence that is the silicon our exports, not only in the aviation industry in the valley, as it were, of the defence aviation industry. We north-west but right across the defence industry. We can have only to look back at what happened in the 1960s also improve the UK’s standing in the world, and our when the Wilson Government cut the TSR2. We had a military and diplomatic influences, by doing so. Let us world-beating product, but it was shredded because of not pretend, however, that the situation is dire at the what was happening at the time in the political framework. moment, or that the previous Labour Government ran My hon. Friend is correct about the allocation of funding. us into the ground. I am sure that the Minister is We have to preserve not just the jobs, but the scientific— aware—although I am not sure whether the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys is—that this country punches roughly three times above its natural weight in Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I said just a moment its exports industry. We should be proud of that, and ago that interventions needed to be brief. That is a the kind of partisan remarks that the hon. Member for general rule of the House. The hon. Gentleman should Blackpool North and Cleveleys has just made do the not use the opportunity of an intervention to make a defence industry and those who work in it a disservice. speech. I am sure that his hon. Friend has got the gist of his point now. I want the Typhoon to play an important part in the areas that I have just mentioned, and in sustaining the economy. It will do so, however, only if we take a Paul Maynard: I agree with it fully, so I thank my mature attitude to exports and, as my hon. Friend the hon. Friend for his comments. Member for Preston (Mark Hendrick) said, if we buy The other Department that I would like the Minister this kit ourselves. The first question that any foreign to talk to is the Department for Education. It is a Government will ask when we rock up at their door and common complaint across Government as a whole that try to sell them this kit or anything else is, “Are you 981 Military Aviation Industry15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Military Aviation Industry 982

[John Woodcock] 6.17 pm Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I congratulate my using it yourself?” If we are not, why on earth should hon. Friend the Member for Fylde (Mark Menzies) on they buy it? I very much hope that the laudable rhetoric securing this important debate. I agree with everything that is coming from the Government at the moment will he said; I know he has worked tirelessly on this issue for be sustained by a proper strategy that will enable us to many months. I am also pleased that the hon. Member acquire this kit and help us to export it overseas. for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) struck a I want to mention scaremongering in regard to jobs. slightly more positive note. I do not think that all is There is an important role for Members of Parliament doom and gloom; we should celebrate the success stories in standing up for employment in their constituencies as well, so I am grateful that some Members have and their regions, and I think that many hon. Members reflected that. on the other side of the House get that. I hope that the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys I shall start by focusing on some of the positives in understands it as well. It is not dishonourable to speak the north-west of England. The aerospace sector there up for the potential industrial consequences of the has long been recognised as one of Europe’s leading decisions that are about to be made. I am a member of industrial clusters and as a model for development the cross-party Defence Committee, which has just within the aerospace and other industries. In my Pendle concluded that some of those decisions could put at constituency, a number of significant firms are dependent risk our long-term security, as well as our defence on the aviation industry and on military contracts in industry and the industrial base that it sustains. particular. As recently as Defence questions on Monday this Graham Jones: I note that, yesterday, the Minister week, I raised the importance of military aviation. I was said that the UK was the second most successful exporter reassured by what the Minister had to say. I pointed out of defence products in 2009, with orders worth more to him that on the previous Saturday I had visited than £7 billion. Would my hon. Friend like to comment Euravia, a company that repairs and overhauls aircraft on that? engines; it is located in Kelbrook in my constituency. I was there to attend the event at which the company was John Woodcock: My hon. Friend provides evidence presented with the Queen’s award for enterprise in the for what I was saying earlier. We are a successful country, international trade category. Despite the recession, that but we want to become even more successful. We shall firm had seen a growth in orders and was significantly need to do that in an environment that is going to be increasing its overseas trade, starting to explore new very tough in the years ahead. Other counties are and exciting opportunities. I believe that such businesses retrenching their budgets just as we are, but it is important are leading the way in showing how other firms in the that we take a mature attitude to this. aerospace sector should behave—developing the skills Returning to my point about jobs and about the of their workers, attaining an international reputation industrial base that the defence industry sustains, I for high standards and good customer service, and wonder whether the Minister and the hon. Member for always looking for new contracts abroad in case contracts Blackpool North and Cleveleys are aware of the evidence in the UK dry up. that the chief executive of BAE Systems and other In underlining the importance of the aviation industry senior members of the defence industry gave to the to my constituency, I point out that Rolls-Royce is the Defence Committee last week. They pointed out that largest employer, with more than 1,000 workers in we are on the verge of decisions that we risk getting Barnoldswick producing engine fan blades. I was wrong. Alarm was expressed within the industry among particularly delighted to have been able to take my right the speakers who gave evidence to the Defence Committee hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to visit last week. If we get this wrong, they said, we could lose Rolls-Royce prior to the election; I know that he is our capability in the north-west—in aviation, shipbuilding acutely aware of the importance of the aviation industry and right across the piece—in a way that will have in Lancashire. I find it encouraging that in recent months devastating consequences for employment. If in five or Rolls-Royce has announced a string of deals, including 10 years’ time, we decide that we need this capability, we one worth £1.1 billion at the Farnborough airshow. In will find that the employment base needed to sustain it July, the company unveiled detailed plans for a new has gone—never to return. If the hon. Member for £30 million aerodrome at its site in my constituency. Blackpool North and Cleveleys believes that those people This extension of the current site is where it will build were scaremongering when they said that, I hope he will fan blades for the F-35 joint strike fighter, which colleagues stand up and make his view clear. I certainly do not mentioned earlier in the debate. The extension will think that they were, as this is a serious issue that will create about 100 new jobs in my constituency, although have to be dealt with. that will depend on approval from the President of the In conclusion, it is so important to sustain capacity at United States, Barack Obama, for the Rolls-Royce F-35 Samlesbury and Warton—for the reasons I have just set engine. out, but additionally because if the north-west takes the I know that the Government have already been working right decisions and the Government support it, and closely with Rolls-Royce to help it to secure more business. developing a defence and industrial policy following the I was particularly pleased to see bosses from Rolls-Royce strategic defence review will be critical—that could and BAE Systems accompanying the Prime Minister on strengthen and augment its position as playing a leading his recent visit to India. I really do see aviation exports part in the country and the world in producing world-class as key, and I am therefore delighted that unlike Ministers industrial products to serve our armed forces here and in the last Government, Ministers in the present to export across the globe. The decisions made now and Government are proactively helping our businesses to in the coming weeks and months will be critical. win contracts abroad. 983 Military Aviation Industry15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Military Aviation Industry 984

Graham Jones: I question that last point. All the Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock). previous tranches, up to 3A, went through under a My constituency has been very much affected by the Labour Government, but tranche 3B, on which many proposal for job losses at the BAE Systems site at Members are now focusing, is in doubt under the coalition Brough. My right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice Government. How can the hon. Gentleman justify his and Howden (Mr Davis) and the right hon. Member for comment, given that all the previous contracts were Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) honoured by the Labour Government, whereas the new have been engaged in cross-party work in relation to Government are considering reviewing and perhaps that proposal, and over the past few years they have cutting a future contract, 3B? also worked closely together to help to secure contracts for the continuation of the site. Andrew Stephenson: I am happy to justify my comment The BAE Systems site at Brough has a huge impact by asking how the hon. Gentleman justifies the Labour on our area. In recent years we have struggled in respect Government’s huge overspends, and the massive deficit of manufacturing jobs, as has the rest of the country, that they built up when their expenditure was out of and the continuation of the Brough site is greatly valued control. Clearly they should have got spending under by local people. It gives young people in the area some control, and should have conducted a strategic defence aspiration that they might have a future job in review instead of delaying the pain until now. manufacturing. I know all about that. I grew up in the The importance of big aerospace contractors such as area, attending a comprehensive school in Hull, and Rolls-Royce and BAE Systems to Pendle, Lancashire one of the most secure prospects we had was the possibility and the United Kingdom economy should not be of going into apprenticeships at either BAE Systems at underestimated. As my hon. Friend the Member for Brough or BP at Saltend. Fylde (Mark Menzies) pointed out, there is a significant number of subcontractors and support companies. The I cannot over-emphasise the value of BAE Systems average job in aerospace contributes £75,000 gross value and the Brough site to our local economy and education added to the economy, and the figure rises to £115,000 at facilities. It is heavily involved in local schools in my BAE Systems, compared to only about £15,000 gross constituency and across the East Riding, and probably value added per job in other sectors in Lancashire. I beyond that. Its educational roadshow is run from have noticed when I have spoken to business men in my Brough and it has thus far received about 5,000 young constituency how many of them started off as apprentices people from the ages of nine to 13, bringing them on to at either BAE Systems or Rolls-Royce. the site to see what the possibilities for them there might be, and perhaps sparking an interest in manufacturing Many Opposition Members have expressed concern and in pursuing that interest in their own educational about the potential impact of the strategic defence and futures. BAE Systems is also heavily involved with the security review on the military aviation industry. We local secondary schools and every year provides a number have already had a debate today about who has been of apprenticeships to local schools. All that is a success fuelling scare stories in the press. I believe that hon. story for our region, so I do not want anybody to leave Members have a responsibility not to fuel scare stories: this debate with any impression other than that the I do not think that they do anything for workers’ existence of the Brough site in our local area is entirely morale. I suggest, however, that the biggest risk to our positive. military aviation is not the strategic defence and security review, but the muddled and incoherent programme left The links go far and wide. The current mayor of by the last Government. Goole is an employee at Brough BAE Systems, as is the husband of my secretary in the constituency. Perhaps I Before Opposition Members lecture the coalition should therefore declare an interest, although many Government on the financial implications of reviewing more people than just those two are employed there—and, certain defence contracts, they should remember that in fact, the mayor of Goole is a Labour party member with a defence budget of some £35 billion a year, they so I am working cross-party in that respect. left behind an overspend in the equipment programme that will amount to £38 billion by 2020. That is what we There have been a number of challenges to the Brough must deal with now, and that is why we are carrying out factory in recent years. It is heavily reliant on Hawk a full review of all the current contracts. contracts, for instance, and a couple of years ago there were a number of job losses. My right hon. Friend the I used my maiden speech to explain the need for us to Member for Haltemprice and Howden and the right build a high-skilled economy, and I specifically mentioned hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle the importance of the aviation industry. So far I have worked incredibly closely to try to alleviate the pain of been very encouraged by the measures that Ministers that. Following the problems back in 2008 and earlier have taken to support military aviation, but I urge them we got an assurance from BAE Systems that the over- to do even more to support that vital sector. reliance on the Hawk contracts at Brough would cease and that it would seek to broaden the work undertaken 6.23 pm there. However, I can only repeat what the right hon. Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I congratulate Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle has my hon. Friend the Member for Fylde (Mark Menzies) said in response to the latest threats to Brough: on securing what has turned out to be a longer debate “So with the first test of this so-called transitional plan, which than we might have expected. It has given many more only ended in December, it has failed and I think this is a breach Members a chance to make speeches, some more political of faith.” than others. There are certainly those in the Brough work force who I want to break the Lancashire stranglehold on the would share the sentiment that despite the assurances debate—or rather the north-western stranglehold. I used BAE Systems gave some years ago, the continued reliance to teach geography too, so I apologise to the hon. on Hawk has led us to the position we are now in. I urge 985 Military Aviation Industry15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Military Aviation Industry 986

[Andrew Percy] accept that the decisions being taken today are not down to this Government, but to our inheritance from the Minister to give us assurances this evening in whatever the previous one. way he can that the Government will put as much pressure as possible on BAE Systems to ensure that the Mark Hendrick: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? work undertaken at Brough is broadened in furtherance of the agreement of some two years ago. Andrew Percy: No, I am not going to give way to the It is also important to pay tribute to the unions at the hon. Gentleman, because I fear that we will end up Brough site. Every time there have been threats to jobs getting into too much of a political debate. Perhaps I at Brough, they have engaged in a positive way with have contributed to that, and I apologise, so I shall now management, local elected representatives and the local focus much more on the positives of how we can make councils, who are also incredibly supportive of the site. progress. As we move forward in addressing difficult decisions There is the potential for us to work on a cross-party more generally, the nature of their engagement might basis and for MPs representing different parts of the serve as a lesson to others about what can be achieved country to work together to protect their local work when we have a proper positive partnership between forces. The Government have got the right idea about unions, staff and management. I hope others will take a going out there and selling for Britain. I take the point lead from the engagement at Brough as they face their that the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John own issues in coming months and years. Woodcock) made about the fact that we must prove our commitment to our products, and I am sure that the I also seek some assurances from the Minister this Minister will have heard what he said. Tough decisions evening on the future of the Hawk contracts. We have lie ahead, but as long as this dialogue takes place early, not been able to get to the bottom of that. We are told the announcements do not come out of the blue and we that there are three countries, two of which have been are given the full information about where we are at, named—one as country X, for whatever reason—where particularly on the Hawk contracts and the Brough there are potential Hawk contracts ready to be signed. site, we can perhaps alleviate many of the current What is different about the current position at Brough, threats to jobs. where about 210 jobs are under threat, is that this seems to have come as a bolt out of the blue. When there has I conclude by, again, emphasising that the Brough been a threat to jobs in the past, the management at site has a highly skilled and dedicated work force, who BAE Systems have engaged positively with local Members are an important part of not only the local economy, of Parliament, the local councils and the work force but the national economy. We have to get real about this to see what pressure can be applied, wherever, to try to commitment to improving manufacturing in this country, alleviate the problems. This time, the threat seems to and there we have an excellent example that can be have come out of the blue, so we are unclear as to what drawn upon for use in other areas of Government exactly the contracts are, at what point the Hawk contracts policy. I urge the Government to do all that they can to are at and whether indeed there are any contracts. The work with BAE Systems, to protect jobs not only in securing of one of these contracts would put the site on Brough and my patch, but across the whole industry. It a secure footing for a couple of years. If the Minister is is a huge success story for our country, and I look unable to respond this evening to those points, I urge forward to the Minister’s response. him to take them up with BAE Systems and respond to the work force and MPs as soon as possible. 6.33 pm It is also important to welcome the new Government’s Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): I congratulate the movement on the so-called “commercial foreign policy”, hon. Member for Fylde (Mark Menzies) on managing because this is something we need. I heard with interest to get this important issue on the agenda this evening. I the comments about the success of the UK’s aerospace have worked in the aerospace industry for more than industry over the past few years. It did not happen 40 years, and I can remember working on the old overnight or in the past 13 years; it happened because of Phantom engine at Lucas Aerospace many, many years decisions taken decades ago, many of them in the 1980s ago. Amazingly, some of those engines are still being and often in the teeth of opposition, because of the used in jet fighters in underdeveloped countries. nature of the work involved, from the Labour party— It is important to remember that this country can no depending on who gets its leadership, we might see that longer afford to develop new military aerospace equipment, again in the future. Those tough and important decisions because it is far too expensive for a single country to do taken in the national interest decades ago have led to that. The European countries of Germany and Spain—the the successful industry we have in this country today. ones involved in the Eurofighter contracts—have appreciated that. One thing that concerns me a little is John Woodcock: The hon. Gentleman makes persuasive that although the Eurofighter is being built at the points, but does he not think that they underline the moment, we should be developing the next stage of importance of the decisions that we are going to take military aircraft now. It does not happen overnight. A next month in ensuring that the next two decades can new aircraft does not just happen tomorrow—it takes continue to provide export growth? years and years to develop. I hope that the European Union, in collaboration with all the aerospace companies, Andrew Percy: I do think that, but Labour Members is starting to consider the next combat plane that will have absolutely no credibility on this issue. They have to be developed after Eurofighter finishes. could and should have undertaken the strategic Eurofighter is being built at Samlesbury, near Preston, defence review a number of years ago, and they have but the biggest contract for Preston would be one that left us in the current financial position. They must has already been mentioned: the F-35. Our requirements 987 Military Aviation Industry15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Military Aviation Industry 988 for the F-35 are negligible compared with what the cannot afford to develop the technology. They live off USA wants. I understand that it is considering somewhere what they get from the Government to develop technologies in the region of 3,000 of these aeroplanes. Quite a large to power military aircraft, and that spins off into commercial number of them will be built in Lancashire at Samlesbury aircraft. When the Government order military aircraft, and Warton. I hope that the Minister can press the they might—indeed, I am sure they do—contribute to USA to take final decisions on engine design and engine the development of commercial airliners and engines in contracts, because I know that Rolls-Royce at Barnoldswick this country. Thousands of people work in that industry is urgently awaiting the contract. and we are world leaders in it. We probably produce the best aircraft wings ever built and Boeing is certainly a Graham Jones: The hon. Gentleman makes some big customer of many manufacturers in this country, excellent points and I agree with him. I am concerned particularly Rolls-Royce, whose Trent engine powers about our capacity at Warton if we are solely reliant on the new Dreamliner, the 777, most of the Boeing 737s the F-35 and the Eurofighter is cancelled or reduced. and the majority of the Airbus aeroplanes. Hon. Members The F-35 is not assembled in the UK but in the USA, so will know that the new A380 is powered by the new we will not need the runway at Warton and we will lose Trent 900 engine. our capacity. There are ongoing issues when we rely totally on the F-35. We should not be doing that; we It is important to keep military aircraft going, but it should be trying to keep our European bases, which is is also important to keep a focus on the cost of doing so the point that he is making. and the cost of developing those aircraft. I understand that Eurofighters cost about £20 million apiece. It is Gordon Birtwistle: All military aircraft go out of important to link all that together and consider the fashion. By the time the Eurofighter was developed, the development of commercial equipment that spins off countries that would potentially be our enemies were from military equipment. As I have said, military equipment already developing systems to combat it. We have to comes and goes—in my life, I have seen some aircraft accept that, as it has gone on for ever. I remember the cancelled and some that are developed go on to be very TSR2—not many people in this Chamber will remember successful—but it is important to focus on what we can that—which got almost to the point of taking off when get from the development of military equipment into the then Labour Government cancelled it. This has commercial equipment, as that is where all the money is nothing to do with politics, really—it has to do with made by companies that work in that industry. collaboration between countries across the world in developing the fighters. 6.41 pm One thing that I want quickly to mention is the link between military aircraft and commercial aircraft. Modern Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): The hon. Member aeroplanes, such as the Airbus, are built around the for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle) made a good point technology that has been developed over many years in about cross-subsidy. We can look at BAE Systems and military aircraft. The fly-by-wire in the Airbus was start from there. It spends £101,000 for every £1 million— initially developed in the early stages of the English 10% of its revenue—on research and development, and Electric Lightning aircraft and was developed further it is the third-highest of 850 UK firms when it comes to for commercial aircraft. Military aircraft sales in this R and D. He made the tremendous point that any country are very high—I accept that—but they pale reduction in our military or industrial base will affect into insignificance when they are linked to the sales of commercial opportunities and other businesses in the commercial airliners. north-west and the UK. Rolls-Royce is one of the manufacturers, and much is This is not a two-sided argument, as some Government built in Burnley—the thrust reversers are built at Aircelle. Members have characterised it. It is not about deficit The contracts for the Trent engine and the Airbus wings reduction or increased national debt, and I am very all involve products that have been developed from old concerned that the Treasury is leading on this issue military technology. rather than the Ministry of Defence. The arguments between the Chancellor and the MOD do not serve the Mark Hendrick: I totally agree with the hon. Gentleman. country or the aviation industry well, and statements As a young engineer, I trained at the Royal Signals and such as that by the Secretary of State for Defence that Radar Establishment. Liquid crystal was one of the we will buy “off the shelf” are very unhelpful. products that was developed there for military use. As The hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys we know, that has formed the basis of television sets (Paul Maynard) talked about scaremongering. When sold in millions around the world. That is a technology workers hear those kinds of comments and see job that we developed and that we are not exploiting as a losses, they are naturally concerned. As my hon. Friend nation because the sets are made in other countries in the Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) the far east. The loss of any industry in the north-west said, they have every right to approach their Member of would mean that we would lose the spin-off industry, as Parliament and expect them to stand up on their behalf well as the direct industries that he talks about. and for their jobs and families. They also have sense in Gordon Birtwistle: Yes, that is another industry that that they understand that the sector is part of the UK’s developed from military aircraft. My link is from military industrial base, especially in Lancashire and the north-west. to commercial and concerns the potential for sales of I think we are all aware of the UK’s industrial base. I commercial equipment—that is, the new Trent XWB want to read out three points from the plethora that Rolls-Royce engine that we hope will power the new have been raised with me. First, the UK is the world family of single-aisle aircraft after the Boeing 737s and leader in the manufacture of aircraft wings and engines, A320s have finished their lives. All that technology as the hon. Member for Burnley pointed out, and has a starts in the military field because commercial companies 35% market share in the sale of engines, which is worth 989 Military Aviation Industry15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Military Aviation Industry 990

[Graham Jones] manufacturing is hit, it does not come back, and we should take that lesson on board when we consider more than £5.1 billion a year. Secondly, defence exports defence spending. are generally worth £5 billion a year to the UK economy The hon. Gentleman is right to talk about and support 65,000 jobs. Thirdly, according to the apprenticeships. BAE Systems has some 200 apprentices. Government’s 2009 value added scoreboard, the aerospace It spends £1 million at the university of Central Lancashire and defence sector added £12 billion in value to the and is heavily involved in trying to bring young people economy. The average value added per employee in the through so that they get skills. On job prospects, I have industry was very high, as the hon. Member for Pendle heard someone—it might have been my right hon. (Andrew Stephenson) pointed out, at £116,000, whereas Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward for general manufacturing, the figure is £15,500 per Miliband)—talking about Govan shipyard or Asda, employee in Lancashire. The £116,000 figure also compares and one could almost say for us that it is a supermarket well with those for other industries. The sector is one of or BAE. That is not quite true, but it is a lot of people’s Britain’s success stories, as has been pointed out. perception of job prospects. A job at British Aerospace, This is not about scaremongering. The hon. Gentleman as it was formerly known, was something to behold is right that it is important that these issues are raised in because someone employed there was working for a this place and discussed thoroughly. The citizens who first-class company that was one of the best in the elect us are the important people, not us. We are simply region. advocates on their behalf. They are the ones who will The Minister has heard a lot of evidence during the face redundancy and repossession when they are unable debate—all of it true—to show that we cannot afford to to pay the mortgage. Britain will suffer from the economic cancel defence contracts now. impact—and there will be an economic impact. This is not a case of pushing one domino over and perhaps two Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con): The hon. Gentleman or three others falling. In the case of the defence industry, is addressing the House in a positive manner and we are if one domino is pushed over, it is likely that the whole with him on maintaining jobs, skills and our excellent lot will go down, and Britain’s industrial capacity in one defence export industry. However, is he edging towards of our best exporting sectors will then be torn away. suggesting what his party would be able to cut to The north-west has a great export and manufacturing maintain the defence expenditure that he is proposing? story. However, as the hon. Member for Burnley said, Government Members would be fascinated to hear that has come on the back of military spending and what might be sacrificed so that his skills base and Government contracts. The old private sector and state industry may be supported. industries are long gone, and the heartbeat of the north-west economy is kept ticking by, if not the public Graham Jones: Thank you very much for raising that. service, defence and nuclear. You make a very good point that there has been no dialogue— The Chancellor’s priorities for the coalition Government are a return to manufacturing, and a focus on the Mr Speaker: Order. May I gently say to the hon. private sector and on manufacturing companies that Gentleman that I have not made any point at all? It is are able to export to get Britain out of the so-called important that the second person is not used. We must deficit. The north-west’s defence industry ticks all those get into the habit of holding debates through the Chair. boxes. We should look at the domino principle of how I know that the hon. Gentleman will wish to continue everything collapses if the industrial and skills bases are that now—we look forward to it. taken away. If things are turned off today, they will not come back on in five years’ time. Given that the industry Graham Jones: I apologise, Mr. Speaker. It is a result ticks all the boxes that the coalition has put forward, I of being a new MP. do not understand why it would cancel any of the defence contracts. There has been little dialogue between the Government and unions. We need more discussion of the future prospects. I appeal to the coalition to engage in more Gordon Birtwistle: Does the hon. Gentleman agree dialogue and to think about the decision that it will that the age profile of a lot of the work force in the make. British aerospace industry, particularly in Lancashire, and the engineering industry is getting very high and that when those members of staff move, the companies 6.50 pm should seriously consider replacing them with a major David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): Thank you, influx of new apprentices? We heard earlier that BAE Mr Speaker, for giving me the chance to say a few Systems takes on a derisory number of apprentices words. I had not intended to speak, but this is a stimulating compared with the number of people whom it employs. and important debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Fylde (Mark Menzies) on securing the Graham Jones: The hon. Gentleman makes the good time for a debate on such an important subject. We have point that a lot of skilled people in the sector developed heard some great remarks. their skills in the 1960s and 1970s. We paid the price for Although I had not planned to speak, the subject is the great manufacturing recession of the 1980s with the important to me as the Member of Parliament for loss of capacity and skills. Those in my generation are Macclesfield because in the neighbouring constituency, missing from the skilled group, and such unskilled Cheadle, there is a big BAE site, BAE Woodford, which people should have become skilled so that they could is a former aerodrome, as my hon. Friend the Member work in places such as Warton and Samlesbury. The for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) no doubt knows, having history lesson from the 1980s shows that when been raised in Poynton. Many of the work force live in 991 Military Aviation Industry15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Military Aviation Industry 992

Macclesfield. Woodford is famous for the Lancaster that plant are based in my constituency, and they are bomber, the Vulcan, and now Nimrod. It is also famous very concerned to ensure that the A400M aircraft is for many well known air shows, where Concord turned developed, purchased and built, and that the relevant up. skills are grown, to ensure that we meet the needs not BAE Woodford is symbolic of the importance of the only of the military, but of the skills base in the private industry to the UK. In recent decades it has seen a huge sector. amount of investment in the new Nimrod MRA4, The Minister will know that my right hon. Friend the which is a magnificent aircraft. I have had the chance to Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth), tour the aircraft on site and it is an amazing structure. when Defence Secretary, signed a contract for the purchase Sadly, the long-term survival of that aircraft is not of 22 A400M aircraft—before the general election but guaranteed, despite the best efforts of my predecessor, in the window between January and the general election Sir Nicholas Winterton, of the hon. Member for Cheadle date. The current Government have now deemed that (Mark Hunter), and of the work force and management period to be one for the review of contracts. The Minister of BAE. It is well known that the site will close in 2012. is currently reviewing the contracts for the purchases Today we have been meeting the Minister and are that my right hon. Friend intended to make at that time, extremely grateful to him for the time that he has given. and I wish to see the Minister do so positively, for the We made representations about the importance of securing reason that the hon. Member for Burnley (Gordon the remaining nine Nimrod MRA4s that we are keen to Birtwistle) gave. see produced, which will be vital to protect this country’s Trident capability. We will see how that emerges from The use and development of military technology is the strategic defence review. We are very hopeful. strongly linked to the development of civil aircraft. It is important not just for BAE Woodford and the Members will know that the Airbus factory at Broughton people who work there, but in the context of the debate, produces world-class wings for civil aircraft, but it does that we have a strong and vibrant aviation industry and so based on the technology, skills and investment in military capability. We need that not only to find jobs people that its military capacity is developing and, with for people when the 600 jobs at Woodford go in 2012—of the A400M, I hope will continue to develop. There is a course I am concerned about that—but in order to great synergy between the two, and, when I recently met maintain our sovereign capability, which has been well the trade unions, which work very positively with the described in the debate. We must have that at the management at that factory, to look at the work on civil forefront of our minds. and military projects, they recognised that although the Airbus factory in north Wales, servicing north Wales The other point that has been made on both sides of and the north-west, does not make a major contribution the House is that we need to maintain the skills and the to the A400M, the skills, expertise and wings that are experience that underpin this vital industry. Those are developed for civil aircraft very much depend on its important to the economy not just of the north-west or successful construction. the other side of the Pennines, but to the whole country. The industry is strategically important. I hope that on The A400M is a flexible aircraft, providing the the strength of the debate, the strength of feeling and opportunity for the strong development of the required the judgments that have been made by the Minister and technologies in modern aircraft. It offers the requirements his colleagues, we will see the industry thrive and succeed. that the military need for civil, military and humanitarian It will be vital in future. I hope the Minister will take usage, and it is an excellent technology that has long note of these points, and I look forward to hearing his been in development. I was very pleased when that response later. contract was signed, so I am disappointed that it is under review, but I hope that the Minister will review it 6.53 pm positively. Given what I have heard from Members today, this debate is not just about our military capability, Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Thank you, Mr Speaker, but about maintaining a world-class manufacturing for calling me to speak in the debate. It is always a base with skills development and long-term jobs in the pleasure to be able to contribute to a debate when I had British aerospace industry, both in the military sector not expected to do so, and today is one of those rare and, as with my constituency, in the civil sector. opportunities. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Fylde (Mark Menzies) for initiating the debate and I Those skills are interchangeable, but if we duck that apologise to him for missing the commencement of it. challenge, purchase products off the shelf from foreign The previous business finished earlier than we expected. countries and do not develop our skill base, we will be exporting those jobs to competitors—to foreign I shall use the opportunity to make a case that I have countries—who will ultimately cost us more in the long made before to the House with regard to the A400M term, not just in terms of our technology and our future large aircraft, with which the Minister will be ability to export products and skills to other countries, familiar. It is a major development project for future but in relation to our future defence capacity. military aircraft that involves manufacturing capability in my constituency in north Wales, with the Broughton I am very grateful to the hon. Member for Fylde for Airbus site, and also creates employment in Bristol and initiating this debate and to you, Mr Speaker, for allowing the Avon area. me to contribute, however shortly, given the time that The Minister will know that some 6,500 people are we have had. This has been a very valuable debate, and employed at the Broughton site. Many—to continue the there are real issues at stake, so I hope that the Minister, tenor of the debate—live and work in the north-west, in his difficult deliberations, will take on board my and many live and work in my constituency in north constructive comments about the A400M and, ultimately, Wales. Indeed, some 2,000 of the people who work at confirm the contracts that my right hon. Friend the 993 Military Aviation Industry15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Military Aviation Industry 994

[Mr David Hanson] been outspoken advocates for their constituencies in the past—and the right hon. Member for Bristol South Member for Coventry North East signed in good faith (Dawn Primarolo) has a strong local aviation industry in order to keep that skills base in north Wales and in and a vital interest in the A400M project. the United Kingdom. I am relieved that Members from areas other than the north-west turned up. This is not just a north-west 6.58 pm issue, although it is very important to that region, and the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence demonstrated that fact. We also have interests in Yorkshire (Peter Luff): It is customary to congratulate the hon. and around the country, including the south-east, the Gentleman or hon. Lady who has secured such a debate south-west, the west midlands, and the east midlands. at the end of the day, and I congratulate my hon. Friend Wherever one goes there are aviation and military aviation the Member for Fylde (Mark Menzies) with particular interests, so I am glad that the debate has been so pleasure today. It is his first Adjournment debate, mine broadly drawn. too as a Minister, but it has been of the most exceptional value and great quality, so his congratulations are all Our servicemen and women who are currently deployed the more deserved. There has been a phenomenal level on operations, particularly in Afghanistan, deserve the of participation in what is normally a half-hour debate. best equipment that we can provide, and there is no My brief is littered with handwritten comments, which doubt that the UK military aviation industry has risen I hope I can decipher as I go through my remarks. If for to that challenge in the past and, as hon. Gentlemen any inadvertent reason I unintentionally overlook any have said, continues to do so. I listened carefully to my hon. Gentleman in my response, I shall of course write hon. Friend’s excellent speech and I share his heartfelt to them subsequently. I also congratulate my hon. Friend and sincere view that it is crucial for the security of the on what was a very informative and entertaining maiden UK and our allies that we have a strong and dynamic speech in the House during the debate on the strategic military aviation industry both now and in the future. defence and security review on 21 June. He is clearly BAE Systems’ Warton facility, which lies within my carrying on with exceptional skill the excellent work of hon. Friend’s constituency, demonstrates this ethos, his predecessor, Michael Jack, who also spoke very supporting as it does the important multinational Typhoon strongly for the aerospace industry in the north-west. and joint strike fighter programmes. I will be concentrating on fast jets and unmanned aerial vehicles—UAVs—but military aviation of course encompasses much more, 7pm including helicopters, tankers, strategic lift and, as the Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)), right hon. Member for Delyn reminded us in his fine Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House speech on the A400M, intelligence, surveillance, target do now adjourn.—(Miss Chloe Smith.) acquisition and reconnaissance, or ISTAR. Turning briefly to ISTAR, my hon. Friend the Member Peter Luff: This debate is timely, as my hon. Friend for Macclesfield (David Rutley) told the House that he said, not only for the reasons he gave us—the very sad had met me, together with my hon. Friend the Member redundancies, which I want to discuss later—but because for Cheadle (Mark Hunter) and the right hon. Member of its significance to the strategic defence and security for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher), to discuss review process. That process seriously constrains how the Nimrod MRA4. I pay tribute to my hon. Friends far I can go in replying to many of the points made by and to the right hon. Gentleman for the way in which hon. Members, and I apologise for that, but the debate they put their case and, in particular, to the trade union is an important contribution to the process, and I representatives from Woodford who came with them welcome it for that reason. and made such a powerful case. I apologise publicly for The debate is also timely for a second reason, as we the fact that the meeting was so disrupted by Divisions heard. Today is battle of Britain day: 15 September in the House, but I think they successfully conveyed 1940, 70 years ago, was a critical turning point in the their key messages, and I congratulate them on that. I war, when RAF fighter command claimed a decisive promise that I will take careful account of what was victory over the Luftwaffe. It is fitting, when debating said. the aviation industry today, to pause and pay tribute to The coalition Government recognise, of course, that the bravery of our RAF service personnel, past and the UK military aviation industry is a vital strategic present, and to all those who work so hard to design asset. The challenge is to maintain a vibrant and innovative and build the aircraft in which they fly. From the battle industry capable of meeting the needs of the MOD at a of Britain to Afghanistan, the skills of all those who time of financial challenge, and to be competitive in the work in the industry and their commitment to supporting world marketplace while at the same time minimising our servicemen and women has proved to be second to any MOD investment in artificial sustainment activities—we none. want this activity to be real. We simply cannot do this The contribution made by the UK’s military aviation without listening to what industry has to say; and industry in supporting our armed forces cannot be industry has had some very powerful advocates in the underestimated, and it certainly has not been in the Chamber this evening. Chamber this evening. All three of your Deputy Speaker That is why, in addition to the engagement with colleagues, Mr Speaker, have interests in the aerospace industry that has occurred during the SDSR—despite, and military aviation sector. I know that the hon. Member Mr Speaker, reports to the contrary—I recently announced for Chorley (Mr Hoyle) and my hon. Friend the Member the publication of a Green Paper at the end of this year for Ribble Valley (Mr Evans) are particularly sad not to to explain the MOD’s defence industry and technology be able to contribute to this debate—they, too, have policy, to follow the conclusions of the SDSR in the 995 Military Aviation Industry15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Military Aviation Industry 996 autumn. It will include a full discussion of many issues, the aerospace industry, for which I pay tribute to it. It is including sovereign capabilities and skills—I hope that home to some of the most advanced aerospace will please my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool manufacturing and assembly technologies in the world. North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard)—and, I hope, the On the subject of advanced technologies, unmanned role of apprentices, which was mentioned by my hon. air systems, which my hon. Friend mentioned, are already Friends the Members for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) making a critical contribution to our operations in and for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy). On a recent Afghanistan. Hermes 450, Desert Hawk and Reaper are visit to Rolls-Royce I was struck by the number of saving the lives of our forces, our allies and the Afghan senior managers who had started their working life with people themselves. I look forward to the introduction of the company as apprentices, which shows how important Thales’s Watchkeeper system, which is currently the that route of entry into the industry is. MOD’s largest unmanned air vehicle procurement As a result of that Green Paper process, we will programme. It will provide operational commanders publish a White Paper in the spring, which will formally with a day and night, all-weather capability to detect set out our approach to industry and technology through and track targets without the need to deploy troops into to the next SDSR, which I hope will come after a much potentially sensitive and dangerous areas. My hon. Friend shorter gap than this one. That will provide the clarity mentioned HERTI, which, if I remember correctly, is a that the industry needs to understand what our priorities privately funded capability at BAE Systems. are and how we plan to engage with it to bring those Looking further forward, we are investing in programmes priorities to fruition. to help us better understand possible future roles for Two of the highest priorities in the Green Paper and unmanned air systems. Mantis, for example, is a programme White Paper will be reinvigorated Government support funded jointly by the MOD and BAE Systems, which is for exports and helping small and medium-sized enterprises leading an industrial consortium. The programme is a to expand and prosper. Many of them serve and supply concept demonstrator with state-of-the-art sensors that the military aviation industry, as hon. Members have will demonstrate a UK-developed deep and persistent said. We will support the drive for exports with an intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and active and innovative programme of defence diplomacy, reconnaissance capability of the type currently provided and Ministers will play an important and personal role by Reaper. in that. My hon. Friends the Members for Fylde and for Mark Hendrick: The Minister is speaking very strongly Blackpool North and Cleveleys mentioned the role of about the importance of the UAV programme, which is my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in securing a taking place principally at Warton, and I totally agree recent Hawk contract in India, which shows how important with him. He mentioned the restructuring at Samlesbury, high-level ministerial engagement is. When I wore a which we all know has amounted to hundreds of jobs previous hat, as Chairman of what was once called the being lost last year and hundreds more this year. What Select Committee on Trade and Industry, we repeatedly does he have to say to people there who are going to lose made the call for such engagement, and I am delighted their jobs, some of whom have given a lifetime of to see it bearing fruit so quickly under the coalition commitment to Samlesbury? That is likely happen to Government. The entire ministerial team was at the even more of them as a result of the defence review, in Farnborough air show this year to demonstrate our addition to the losses announced recently. support for military exports in general and the military aviation sector in particular. I undertake that that level Peter Luff: I hope the hon. Gentleman heard me of support from Ministers will continue. express deep regret for those redundancies, which result I turn to the BAE Systems site in Samlesbury. The from decisions taken in the past. Exactly how BAES MoD continues to recognise BAE’s integral role in the chooses to distribute its skills and work force in future is UK aerospace industry, and it is essential that we a matter for BAES, and it is not for me to comment. continue to work together for our mutual benefit as we However, I express deep regret to those individuals, establish and confirm the UK’s strategic objectives in many of whom are outstanding engineers and technicians the wake of the SDSR. In that respect, I very much who started as apprentices and who have given a lifetime welcome the company’s own review that is currently of work to some excellent products. I shall turn to the under way to ensure that its Military Air Solutions importance of maintaining a skills-base in the north-west, business has the right balance of skills, capabilities and in particular for unmanned aerial systems, in a moment. resources to meet the new challenges that lie ahead. Another unmanned aerial system, Taranis, is the That cannot be achieved without some effect on the MOD’s prototype unmanned combat aircraft of the structure of the company, and I note with sadness the future. Built by BAES, Taranis reflects the best of our company’s announcement on 9 September that it sees a nation’s advanced design and technology skills. It will need for more than 700 job losses at a number of its allow the MOD to gain a better understanding of the aviation business sites following decisions by the last most cost-effective and capable future combat air capability Government in 2009. Those losses come on top of force mix between manned and unmanned platforms. A earlier such announcements. pinnacle of UK engineering and aeronautical design, My hon. Friend the Member for Fylde will be aware, Taranis is a leading programme on the global stage and however, that BAE Systems is making a multi-million- a significant step forward in this country’s fast jet pound investment in the north-west at its Samlesbury capability. It is truly a trailblazing project. facility, which will be state-of-the-art. The company To return to a point I made earlier, projects such as aims to develop the site into a major centre for unmanned Mantis and Taranis will enable the UK to retain vital air system development. Samlesbury has a strong tradition aeronautical engineering and design skills, not least in of design, engineering and manufacturing excellence in the north-west at Warton and Samlesbury. However, we 997 Military Aviation Industry15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Military Aviation Industry 998

[Peter Luff] jointly with the US in 2001. There are significant work share benefits for the UK aerospace sector and it is acknowledge the risk to sustainment of critical engineering important to recognise that those benefits come because skills and, in particular, a critical mass of design skills of the excellence of that sector, which has won those within the UK aerospace sector. We are currently funding contracts in competition in world markets. That is a some work with BAES and key UK suppliers to sustain great tribute to British engineering and the sector itself. capabilities pending SDSR outcomes, which I am afraid The UK’s plans to purchase further joint strike fighters I cannot prejudge. are incremental—we already have some bought for test My hon. Friend the Member for Fylde of course has purposes—and they have always been based on the a specific in interest in Warton, and its work is vital to programme reaching technical maturity levels and being the Department. The Typhoon programme contracts affordable within the overall resources for defence. We are worth approximately £20 billon for, from memory, will regard future purchasing plans accordingly, as part about 160 aircraft, up to and including tranche 3A. I of the normal planning process and the outcome of the was asked to say that I would not cancel tranche 3B, but SDSR. The UK continues to play an important role in I cannot cancel it, because an order has been placed. the JSF programme through the provision of expertise However, all future Typhoon contracts are SDSR and resources, including RAF pilots who are now flying dependent. Of course, a significant proportion of the the short take-off and vertical landing—or STOVL—flight Typhoon work goes to BAES. test aircraft. The MOD has also awarded a contract worth The SDSR underpins all this work and, together with approximately £145 million for unmanned air systems the new national security strategy, will provide a coherent air projects based at Warton. As a number of hon. and consultative approach to security and defence across Members pointed out, the site makes a critical contribution government. Our National Security Council has agreed to the multi-billion dollar JSF F-35 programme, about that the overarching strategic posture should be to which many hon. Members spoke enthusiastically. I address the most immediate threats to our national agree with my hon. Friends the Members for Burnley security while maintaining the ability to identify and (Gordon Birtwistle) and for Pendle that a two-engine deal with emerging ones before they become bigger option is vastly preferable in terms of security, design threats to Britain. This flexible, adaptable posture will and driving down cost. I hope our American friends maintain the ability to safeguard international peace will be persuaded to pursue the two-engine option, and security, to deter and contain those who threaten which offers great strategic and financial advantages to Britain and her interests and, where necessary, to intervene countries participating in the programme. on multiple fronts. It will also, crucially, keep our options The UK’s military aerospace industry is well placed open for a future in which we can expect our highest to continue performing significant work in maintaining priorities to change over time. Typhoon’s capability edge and to address the considerable It is very clear that the current defence programme is export interest that is being shown. Indeed, with two unaffordable and tough choices will need to be made. It existing export customers—Austria and Saudi Arabia— cannot be said too often that the programme for the official campaigns being pursued in India, Japan, Turkey next 10 years is £38 billion over-committed, a sum that and other countries, and with further opportunities in we simply cannot fund. That is additional to any the middle east, including in Oman and Qatar, Typhoon requirement to cut budgets beyond that. That over- promises to provide excellent employment prospects. commitment of the existing budget is the legacy of the That underlines that healthy defence exports are the last Government. best way in which to sustain a viable defence and aerospace sector in the UK. Graham Jones: Will the Minister accept that the The hon. Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) reason for the £38 billion overspend is the Government’s suggested that we were in some sense withdrawing from choice to cut the deficit further and faster? Otherwise a commitment to Typhoon, but nothing could be further the money would be there. from the truth. Such suggestions are very damaging to our defence exports. This country has a fine aircraft in Peter Luff: Labour Members just do not get it. It is Typhoon, which is already in active service and serving not a matter of choice. The last Government made a the country very well indeed. However, the Typhoon choice to be—I shall choose my words with great care—a situation will require the industry to continue modernising little disingenuous with the figures and to make its approach to address the capability and through-life commitments that they knew they could not meet. We support requirements of those customers, as it does in have to deal with the £38 billion over-commitment the UK, rather than simply focusing on aircraft production before we address any budget deficit reductions, and and supply.Through-life support costs are hugely important, that is the problem we face in the Ministry of Defence. and we look forward to showing the way ahead through Mark Hendrick rose—[Interruption.] the Green Paper that I mentioned. Certainly, we will work with industry to ensure that, in future, our Mr Speaker: Order. May I just say to the hon. Member requirements for new equipment are designed from for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) that as he has their inception with exportability in mind. That is very only just toddled into the Chamber he should not be important in, for example, the unmanned air systems chuntering from a sedentary position in evident disapproval environment. of the views of others? My hon. Friend the Member for Fylde asked for reassurances on the JSF. Again, it must be SDSR Mark Hendrick: The Minister ignores the fact that dependent, as in everything else, but the UK’s contribution we had a major global economic crisis and the Government to the JSF development will not change—it is fixed by had to bail out the banks after the irresponsible behaviour the memorandum of understanding that we signed of generations of financiers. The reason we are in the 999 Military Aviation Industry15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Military Aviation Industry 1000 terrible state we are in now, which the coalition Government the A400M. Everything is in the pot, including the seem to forget, is the behaviour of the bankers, not of Nimrod MRA4. Everything is there together, and nothing the previous Government. has been singled out or decided. We have to do that to ensure we address both the fiscal challenges and the Peter Luff: It is the nature of Adjournment debates defence issues facing our country. not to be too partisan, so I shall just spell it out in very simple language. The problem facing the MOD—the Mr Hanson: The contracts for the A400M were signed £38 billion—is nothing to do with international crises by my right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry or bankers. It is because the last Government made North East (Mr Ainsworth) before the election, but that commitments that they had no money to pay for. It is has been put in abeyance by the coalition Government. nothing to do with deficit reduction or the crisis. I could So a decision has been made on something that would, not be clearer about that. The £38 billion is a problem it had been decided, go ahead. that we have inherited that we would have had to deal with irrespective of any need to address the extraordinarily Peter Luff: I would like to be more explicit, but I large structural deficit that we also have in the UK. The cannot be. We are, and I quote: £38 billion is a starting point before we address the “Pleased that agreement in principle on the future of the consequences of the crisis. A400M programme has been reached between Partner Nations and Airbus Military (AMSL); this is an important stage in John Woodcock: I hope that the Minister will accept agreeing an amended contract.”— my apologies for coming in slightly late for his speech. the contract now needs to be amended— Members on both sides of the House accept that there “Work on the amended contract continues, and we expect it to is an over-commitment in the budget. Will he accept the be concluded later this year. However, as these discussions are findings of the Defence Committee’s report today that ongoing and at a critical state, it would be inappropriate to there is a grave danger that if the correction is done in provide any further details at this stage.” the wrong manner—and it is being done very quickly—we I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will accept, therefore, will lose the capacity to maintain or restore capability in that the issue is not just about the SDSR; negotiations vital areas in future years? are also going on at present. I said that no decisions had been taken. However, my Peter Luff: The Select Committee’s statement was right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary made one such constructive and thoughtful. I have not read every word commitment at Defence questions earlier this week: he of it yet, but it is a very helpful document. In some is keeping the RAF.I hope that provides some reassurance areas, it has not quite understood the process, but never to hon. Members. mind—it is a good response, and today’s debate shows The potential prize is great: modernised, well-supported that Members on both sides of the House, including armed forces ready to defend and promote British me, understand how important it is to maintain these national interests and successful manufacturing industry capabilities and to ensure that we can take part in the to support that. The UK military aviation industry is a next generation, particularly of unmanned aerial systems, strategic asset, and this Government will ensure that it which are the future of fast jet production. I will not remains so. We are committed to increasing the exportability labour the £38 billion point anymore, but it does set the of our equipment and delivering the industrial and framework of what the Government have to contend technology support our armed forces need. The MOD’s with. defence industry and technology policy Green Paper For Britain’s defence, and despite all the financial will be a significant step towards achieving those aims. I constraints we linger under—both inherited ones and welcome the opportunity to engage with our industrial the structural problems caused by irresponsibility in partners in the coming months to ensure that, despite fiscal policy generally—that means taking strategic decisions the serious financial challenge we face, these aims will for the long term. These are the realities we face as we become a reality. approach the critical decision-making phase of the Question put and agreed to SDSR. I reiterate that no decisions have been taken on any of the issues debated in the House this evening. The 7.22 pm right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) referred to House adjourned.

245WH 15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Criminal Bar (Public Funding) 246WH

The criminal Bar is the profession of specialist advocates Westminster Hall in the criminal courts. It has a long and proud tradition. Its codes and professional atmosphere are exacting and Wednesday 15 September 2010 competitive. It upholds high standards, celebrates and seeks to emulate the examples of luminaries of the past and present. Those include names who have bestridden [MR PETER BONE in the Chair] the parliamentary stage in ages gone by, including Carson, Smith, Hastings, Marshall Hall, Peter Rawlinson and—I Criminal Bar (Public Funding) dare to add a name of which I am particularly fond— Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting Marshall-Andrews. be now adjourned.—(Jeremy Wright.) A strong emphasis on ethical conduct is instilled into the novice barrister from his earliest experience. On the 9.30 am consistent reliability of such standards of moral integrity and of skill in the efficient dispatch of cases rests the Mr Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con): trust of the judiciary, which knows that the accuracy It is a great pleasure to see you preside over this debate, and justice of its decisions are substantially dependent Mr Bone. I am pleased to have secured a debate on such on the quality of those who represent Crown and a topical and important subject, and to be able to accused. It is largely from their senior ranks that the welcome the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my judiciary are drawn. hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) to his position. It is my first opportunity to do so in this Furthermore, the availability of an independent, fearless Chamber, and I hope that he is enjoying the multifarious and professional cadre of advocates, who are obliged complexities of the task with which he has been entrusted, under the rules of their profession to take up a case because it is an unenviable one. In many respects, he regardless of the unpopularity of the cause or the inherits an unfortunate and complicated history, and it power of the opponent, is a vital constitutional protection is one through which he will no doubt tread with a of the individual. It is by the efforts of such men and combination of charm, urbanity and skill. Certainly, he women in seminal cases throughout the years that many will need all three. of the rights that we take for granted today were first established. No dictatorship or tyranny can long tolerate I should declare an interest here. For the last 28 years, the existence of such a profession. Therefore, the continuing I have made my living at the Bar, a large part of which vigorous existence of the criminal Bar is a potent public has been at the criminal Bar. Therefore, it is right for me good. I am afraid to say that the previous Government to declare at the outset of this debate a strong financial in their language and conduct did not appear to recognise personal interest. It was that interest that has caused that. It is important to many in this House that this me, over the past few years, to hesitate long and hard Government—I dare to say our Government—recognise before bringing to the Floor of the House any issue to the value to the public interest of the criminal Bar and do with the professional structure or remuneration of its professional values. the profession of which I have been a member for so long. It is precisely because of the gravity of the current If this debate—I look at the Minister directly here—could situation and the need for a voice to be raised in defence elicit from the Minister a firm statement in support of of what are often minority, quiet and civilised professional the value of the criminal Bar and its professional values, values—they lack a voice in the discussions of the it would have done some good. It would give enormous House—that I decided to overcome my hesitation. Given encouragement to many hundreds of junior barristers that I have been contacted by many members of the Bar and others to believe that this Government were going and that I head my own chambers in Lincoln’s Inn to restore to pride of place in their considerations of the fields, I can say that I am conscious of the interests of criminal justice system a respect and understanding of many junior and young barristers who are affected by professional values. the current predicament with which the criminal Bar is For 20 years now, the Bar has been joined in the faced, and with those qualifications and caveats, I felt practice of advocacy in the higher courts by solicitor- that it was right to bring such issues to the House’s advocates. A previous Conservative Government accepted attention. the argument that the public should have the choice not At the heart of the criminal justice system is the to be represented by a barrister. I do not believe that the professional exercise of the art of advocacy. The efficient criminal Bar as a whole was, at the time, particularly conduct of cases in the courts is the essential pivot resistant to that innovation. The view was held, and I around which revolves the entire administration of justice. agreed with it, that provided the criminal Bar occupied Incompetence and poor quality in the representation of a level playing field it would, by virtue of its specialisation prosecution or defence will inevitably lead to the failure and standards of training and skill, be able to hold of justice, prolonged delays, aborted trials, appeals and its own. Few believed back then that many solicitors much greater cost. I hope that the Minister and I will at in busy litigation practices would have the time or the least agree on that important statement. It goes without inclination to visit the courts, and for some time that is saying that the heart of the criminal courts in our how it proved. system is the adversarial combat between advocates on However, that is no longer the case. For good or ill, either side. If that combat is conducted with expedition, higher courts advocates are now established and increasingly skill, relevance and a strict fidelity to the relevant issues a prevalent feature of the criminal courts. As pressure in a case, it assists the judiciary to make its decisions. on the available rewards have increased in other areas, The judiciary knows that, which is why it has a direct the lure of the advocacy fee has been impossible to interest and a powerful voice on behalf of the quality of resist. The solicitor occupies the shop window. He is advocacy in our courts. also the contractor with the Legal Services Commission 247WH Criminal Bar (Public Funding)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Criminal Bar (Public Funding) 248WH

[Mr Geoffrey Cox] The criminal Bar knows that it cannot expect special treatment and in the current financial climate it knows for the provision of legal services. If a barrister is to be that it has no right to ask for such treatment. However, I engaged, it is he who must refer the case. Traditionally believe that the present Government must take into he has done so by seeking out barristers whose reputations account this recent history in responding to the imperative and proven records have staked a claim to his attention. need to curtail public expenditure in the next few years. However, the solicitor’s position in the high street If the criminal Bar is to survive, with the powerful and in the police station means that he is able if he wishes public interest that it represents, the Bar, the Law Society to do so—and why should he not wish to do so?—to and the Government must be prepared to work together represent his firm’s client from the inception of criminal to rectify some of the competitive disadvantages, imbalances proceedings through to their end. If he is unable to and unintended consequences that have resulted from manage all the case load that his practice brings him, he recent changes. is now able to return some of it to another solicitor-advocate, My hon. Friend the Minister will know that the who, as I understand it, can often be expected to split leadership of the Bar has been active in promoting the fee and to return the favour some time later. In an imaginative—even radical—ideas to help to resolve these age of decreasing margins, these are attractive options. problems. For example, it has set up a working group to Thus, the criminal Bar is being gradually stranded by a find and suggest to the Government savings in the steadily withdrawing tide of work. criminal legal aid budget. These savings include those At the same time, the criminal Bar has sustained a that would accrue from the lifting of the present rule consistent and dramatic reduction in the rates of legal that prevents the use of funds restrained pending trial, aid for advocacy in criminal cases. Very few citizens are under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, from being used able to bear the cost of a serious criminal trial. However, to finance the legal costs of a trial. I strongly commend the last Government made legal aid available without to the Minister that modest proposal. means-testing to anyone charged with a sufficiently However, by far the most significant proposal is for serious offence. That was no doubt an attempt to control members of the Bar to form companies, which would the costs recovered by a defendant in the event of be given the unwieldy working title of Procure Cos. acquittal and the costs of the bureaucracy associated Those companies would become direct contractors with with the assessment of means. However, it brought the Legal Services Commission for the commissioning about some startling results, such as the sight of MPs of legal services. This idea does not meet with universal being granted legal aid for expenses abuse cases and the accord within the profession. It is revolutionary in its sight of millionaires being represented on public funds. ramifications. These new entities, which would be controlled It also meant that the last Government in effect took by barristers, would commission solicitors to carry out predominant control of the market, making individuals legal work for the first time, thus standing on its head less likely to pay for their own representation while the traditional, centuries-old arrangement. simultaneously taking an axe to the remuneration. It is not at all clear how such a system would operate. I ask the Minister if he accepts that the rates of At the moment, an advocate at the criminal Bar is remuneration of the criminal Bar have been severely retained in a competitive market, in which professional reduced; I hope that he does. In the course of my ability is at least a factor in his selection. Even where the speech, I intend to ask him a number of questions, to barrister is unknown to the solicitor, the latter will have which the answers would be welcome. received an account from the barrister’s clerk of the Let me give some examples of how the rates of barrister’s strengths and recent experience and he will remuneration of the criminal Bar have been severely have been given a choice, perhaps, of one or two other reduced. For the most complex very-high-costs cases barristers. The solicitor, with his professional knowledge that are more than 60 days in length, the rates of of the case, will choose the barrister who he thinks will remuneration have been actually reduced—not in real best suit his client. terms, but in actual terms, in the sense that these are Under the new proposal, however, the clerk in the headline figures and, therefore, have been cut by up to barrister’s chambers—the chambers from which the 20% since 2004. This year, according to the Ministry of Procure Co that is run by the same barristers has agreed Justice’s own figures, remuneration for cases of between to commission services—will have only the accused to 40 and 60 days has been reduced by 39.5%. On any view, consult. There will be no professional intermediary. those are extraordinary reductions. A barrister in a That is difficult, for all kinds of reasons, for many complex case can now be working for between 20 and within the profession to contemplate. 39.5% less than he was either in 2004 or in 2009. There are further major reservations. How will the Finally, on the very day that the House dissolved, new entities set up in sufficient time the administrative 6 April, the statutory instrument was laid, amid rumours and commercial infrastructure required to manage all that civil servants were being bussed in at weekends to the complex considerations that are involved both in complete the processes, that enacted a further cut of commissioning services from other lawyers, experts and 13.5% across the board in remuneration over the next others, and in competing in a tender exercise for contracts, three years. Another 13.5% was simply wiped out from given that they have no established trading history on the margins that criminal barristers are able to earn. which to assess the viability of their bid, particularly if On any view, those examples, which are typical of the the contract is awarded on price? general trend of the last seven years, represent a severe However, I say to the Minister that, if these problems contraction of public funding for the criminal Bar. The can be surmounted, there are clear public gains from combined effect of all these developments has been to allowing the Bar to have access to the commissioning of cause a crisis of confidence in the profession; I do not legal services. First, the Bar is the specialist advocacy believe it to be an exaggeration to describe it as that. profession. The preparation and presentation of a case 249WH Criminal Bar (Public Funding)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Criminal Bar (Public Funding) 250WH in court is the major part of the legal services that are substantial and even severe cuts in remuneration and provided in criminal litigation and yet the profession that it should not, as a result, have to sustain a that specialises in that core service has until now been disproportionate burden as a result of additional measures unable to participate in managing the delivery of that of that kind? Thirdly, will he accept that the Bar must service. If the Bar is widely acknowledged—as it is—to be afforded adequate time to adapt its systems and be a driver of quality and exacting professional standards, administration before the introduction of the new round there can be nothing but good in allowing it to compete. of tendering for legal aid contracts? Secondly, since the cost base of the Bar is low, that will help to keep down costs. Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): The hon. and learned Nevertheless, I say to the Minister that it is plain that, Gentleman says that he wishes funding for the profession if the Government are interested in this idea, it is to be safeguarded. Given that the comprehensive spending essential that the entry of the Bar into commissioning review for the Ministry of Justice proposes a £2 billion legal services is facilitated by rules that it will be able to cut in its £9 billion budget, where does he think that adhere to and conditions that it will be able to fulfil should fall—prisons, probation, sentencing or other from a standing start. The criteria for the awarding of issues? Or does he oppose the Government’s CSR proposals contracts must attach an appropriately high priority to for the Ministry of Justice? the quality of advocacy and the depth and range of experience in specific areas that are offered by the Mr Cox: I recognise that the Government must find potential bid. To that end, the promotion of a system of £2 billion out of a budget of £9 billion, but I ask them quality-assured advocacy standards, with defined levels to recognise that the Labour Government imposed 13.5% in of competence, is not only inherently desirable in itself cuts over the next three years, against a background of but a necessary element. Similarly the Bar must be given consistent reductions in remuneration over the previous adequate time to prepare for such massive and fundamental seven years. change to its structure. I say to the Government—I was careful to word my question as accurately as I could—that any burden If the Government believe that there is merit in this sustained by the criminal Bar should be proportionate idea, the Minister must soon indicate so and begin to and take into account the measures already passed. I consider a timetable for change. We know that there will have not asked for the Bar to be excluded from the be a legal Green Paper this year. Will it contain the exercise of necessary retrenchment, nor does the Bar Government’s preliminary view of these proposals for ask it. It asks for fairness and proportionality. It asks new structures? What view do the Government take of for what has gone before—recently, and as a result of the proposal to pay a single fee for a case without the the Government to which the right hon. Member for ring-fencing of the advocacy element within it? As the Delyn (Mr Hanson) belonged; the statutory instrument Minister knows, that alone could dramatically increase was laid on 6 April—to be taken properly into account. the competitive imbalance that I have described. Thirdly, will the Minister accept that the Bar must be When will the criteria for the new tender for contracts afforded adequate time to adapt its systems? That is be set out? What will the Government learn from the crucial, as I said, if the Bar is to enter the commissioning recent civil family tender? I understand that a serious process. It is also important that the means of entry should problem has arisen from exaggerated overbidding. Some be facilitated so that it can do so from a standing start. solicitors have applied for contracts far beyond their capacity to cope with; others have been careful to apply Finally, will the Minister accept that it is fundamentally only for what they do well. The Ministry scaled down in the public interest that the Bar should be able to enter the bids across the board, leaving some well-established the competitive market for legal aid contracts? If so, firms of good reputation in the field with nothing. How although the profession is deeply uneasy about the will the Minister prevent such mischief from happening revolutionary changes that it would impose, as I think again? he knows, the Bar and its leadership are prepared to work with him and this Government to find new structures The last Government proposed a draconian reduction and new savings in the criminal legal aid budget. That in the number of solicitors’ firms able to offer legal answers the question asked by the right hon. Member services in the criminal courts. I do not hesitate to say to for Delyn. the Minister that although I understand the advantage of having fewer contractors, those considerations must I hope and believe that in partnership and amity, and be tempered by a realistic awareness of the damage such above all with a respect for the professional skill, expertise, an unmitigated approach will do. I hope that the new quality and values represented by the criminal Bar—a Government, which I am proud to support, will measure novel departure from the attitude of the past decade— the impact of their reforms carefully and calibrate them solutions can be found, and the vital public interest according to clear and transparent principles and criteria. represented by the criminal Bar can be preserved in its Those must include, above all, a high if not decisive continuing prosperous existence. regard for professional quality and skill in both sides of Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair): It might be helpful for the profession and a clear commitment to entities with Members to know that I intend to start the winding-up proven merit and track records in the provision of legal speeches no later than 20 minutes to 11. Before I call services in the criminal courts. Mr Turner, I remind Members that it is normal practice I conclude with four critical questions. First, will the to be here at the start of debates. Minister assert the Government’s belief in the value of the independent referral criminal Bar as a professional 9.55 am source of essential expertise and quality in the provision Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): I of advocacy in the criminal courts? Secondly, will he apologise for being late, Mr Bone. I am afraid that accept that the criminal Bar has already sustained recent, public transport let me down. 251WH Criminal Bar (Public Funding)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Criminal Bar (Public Funding) 252WH

[Karl Turner] but I submit that legal aid has been stretched enough. If the coalition Government try to stretch legal aid yet I declare an interest as a criminal lawyer. I was called further, I fear it will snap. to the Bar in 2005 and practised criminal law from a The Labour Government recognised that legal aid firm of solicitors in Hull for a number of years. Shortly could not reasonably be exempt from efficiency savings before my election to the House, I was in the latter and, of course, I recognise that the criminal legal aid stages of pupillage at my local chambers, of which I bill is more than £1 billion. However, I urge the Government remain a member. I hope, therefore, to bring practical to consider a number of issues in the comprehensive experience to the debate as both a junior member of the spending review. Cuts to criminal legal aid may well criminal Bar and a solicitor who has practised criminal lead to defendants being unable to access appropriate law and been heavily reliant on public funding. legal representation, because criminal practitioners will In the time allowed, I hope to dispel a couple of decide that enough is enough, and that may compel myths. The first is that publicly funded criminal lawyers defendants to represent themselves. That will inevitably are taking excessive sums from the public purse. In my lead to the system being clogged up, as defendants experience, the opposite is true. Colleagues at the Bar battle through what is a procedural and legal minefield. work long hours and receive modest fees for their Miscarriages of justice may result from poor-quality services. In preparing for this debate, I asked a criminal advocacy caused by defendants representing themselves, solicitor in Hull, Mr Waddington of Williamsons solicitors, or by the inappropriate use of inexperienced advocates, what a 25% cut to his criminal practice would mean to and there may also be expensive delays in court time. his business. It is worth mentioning that Williamsons is Cuts to legal aid for criminal cases have already the biggest criminal firm providing services to my encouraged the use of employed higher court advocates, constituents. Mr Waddington described the prospect of who offer less experienced representation. Speaking 25% cuts as “disastrous”, and greater cuts as “catastrophic”. from my experience as a criminal solicitor and, indeed, Although no one would expect Mr Waddington to clap a junior member of the Bar, I can say that there are his hands at such a prospect, it is important to mention some good-quality higher court advocates. However, that he was also concerned about access to justice for the truth is that the Bar is very special. The training for the most vulnerable. As a law-abiding citizen, as he put it is very different, and there is no comparison between it, he was particularly concerned about the potential higher court advocacy and barristers. The Bar is far effects on innocent parties in criminal proceedings, such superior because barristers do the job all the time. as victims of crime and witnesses who might be subject Higher court advocates will waltz into a Crown court to cross-examination by unrepresented defendants if once a fortnight or once a month, but a member of the criminal solicitors and barristers were forced to refuse Bar is there continually. instructions. Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): The In my experience, colleagues at the criminal Bar and hon. Gentleman makes a very powerful point about the solicitors do not feel that the previous Government lack of experience of higher court advocates. Would he were overly generous during the past 13 years, but the agree that one of the absurdities of the Crown Prosecution cuts threatened by the new Justice Secretary and the Service’s obsession with using higher court advocates is coalition Government are likely to force them to close that people who are highly qualified in terms of civil their doors for good. service work are taken out of the system and away from the work that they should be doing in reviewing cases? Despite the consistent accusations of irresponsible That work is then delegated to often less experienced spending, it is indisputable that the previous Labour assistants within the CPS. The public sector unions Government streamlined and made efficiency savings, frequently complain about that current fad, because it especially in criminal legal aid. As recently as March, puts employees within the CPS under pressure. the previous Justice Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), said: Karl Turner: I am grateful for that intervention. I “The Government strongly believe that there must be a significant could not agree more with the hon. Gentleman or have restructuring of the provision of criminal defence services in put it better myself. order to achieve greater value for money from legal aid, while still Criminal practitioners are still coming to terms with ensuring fair access to justice and enabling legal aid providers to a number of the significant reforms introduced by the remain profitable and sustainable.”—[Official Report, 22 March 2010; Vol. 508, c. 13WS.] previous Government that have impacted on pay and the availability of work. In particular, the graduated That is a crucial point. The solicitors and barristers to fees scheme has led to solicitors keeping work in-house, whom I speak are genuinely concerned about their rather than instructing the criminal Bar. practices and about whether they will be sustainable As I have said, there has been a real reduction in fees after £2 billion of cuts to the Ministry of Justice budget. of 13.5% over three years. A 4.5% reduction took place It is true that the Labour Government carried out this financial year, which is bound to have a significant significant reform of legal aid. Most prominently, Lord impact. Regardless of the merits of the reforms, they Carter carried out a review of legal aid procurement, a have resulted in a considerable upheaval in the funding key aim of which was to reduce criminal defence rates. of the criminal Bar. That should be taken into account Those were substantially reduced—by 13.5%—but I am in any future review and in any decision that the Minister not saying that what happened was perfect, because I needs to take. Further cuts to criminal legal aid, whether am aware of examples where injustice resulted. Cutting to the criminal Bar or to criminal solicitors’ fees, will costs is clearly a priority for the Government, but at lead to the social exclusion of the most vulnerable at a what cost? The Justice Secretary has confirmed that his time when they are already likely to be suffering cuts in Department will play its part in reducing public spending, other publicly funded services, on which they rely heavily. 253WH Criminal Bar (Public Funding)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Criminal Bar (Public Funding) 254WH

In conclusion, the criminal Bar plays an essential role gain publicly sympathy, and for the evil criminals who in maintaining a fair justice system. Further cuts to command public contempt. Looking back over my legal aid will result in an unfair system, with access to 16 years in the profession, I can think of some clients justice being available only to those who are able to pay for whom the public would not want a penny of public for it. That will inevitably undermine democracy and money spent, but legal aid provides it and the rule of justice. Given the lack of sympathy that the electorate law demands it. will have for the offender, it seems too easy to attack It might be helpful to have some distance when criminal legal aid. However, there is a real danger of making the case for the criminal defence service. The taking that less politically damaging action and, in following words were written by a solicitor, Paul Booty doing so, seriously undermining the very foundation of of McCarthy Stewart Booty: our society. I am very proud of being a member of the “As far as those outside the profession are concerned, we get Bar and of the traditions of the profession, which I little sympathy, as all we do is drain the public purse ‘getting off’ respectfully submit are being put at risk by the actions undeserving, unemployed, drug-taking individuals on technicalities. that I believe will be taken by the Government. I therefore We twist the law to our own advantage and are thoroughly urge the coalition to carefully consider those points and unscrupulous, with no sympathy for the victims of horrendous to resist dropping the axe on criminal legal aid and on crime. It is not surprising, therefore, that we should endure pay such essential services. cuts from the government year on year; and who cares anyway, because we all drive Bentleys. 10.6 am The reality could not be further from the truth. We are called to the police station at any time of the day or night. Quite often Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): It is a we are faced with detainees who, if they are ‘regulars’, are pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. I extremely vulnerable individuals, often living on benefit with congratulate my hon. and learned Friend the Member mental illness, depression and dependency. These people are for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox) on securing an human beings and deserve dignity and fair treatment.” important debate, in which I must declare an interest. I And so say all of us, both those with a direct professional have been a practising solicitor, albeit infrequently, for interest and those outside in the country. more than 16 years and for 11 years I was involved with However, although we certainly want to ensure that instructing the criminal Bar. I therefore certainly have the system upholds dignity and respect, we also recognise, an interest in the debate. particularly in these economic times, that it cannot be There is obviously the risk of being accused of special immune from cuts. When looking for cashable savings pleading for the profession, but there is no risk of in the Ministry of Justice budget, it is obvious that the winning any votes in this debate—we all know that legal aid budget will have to shoulder a distinct burden there are few votes to be won in standing up for lawyers. when cuts are made. The hon. Member for Kingston I also want to declare an interest in the rule of law, upon Hull East (Karl Turner) was too generous about which I am sure all hon. Members who have contributed the previous Government’s record, particularly their will share. That subject is of interest to my constituents legacy for the economy and for the criminal defence and to this country. Clearly, a principle of the rule of service, which has been cut to the bone in many areas law is that it cannot exist without there being access to and left with great concerns for the future. We can justice for every citizen. An independent legal profession, certainly look at how cuts can be made and at high-cost of which the criminal Bar is clearly a crucial component, cases, and means-testing is at last coming back to play a is the foundation of that principle. part. There will also be proper case management, We, in this country, can be proud of our record—of particularly in preliminary hearings, where we can be our principles, of upholding the rule of law and of our much smarter and more cost-effective. legal aid record. In any legal aid debate the statistic is I want to look briefly at the relationship between always mentioned that we spend more per capita—per barristers and solicitors. It is all too easy to play off barristers head—than almost any other country. However, at the and solicitors. Historically, they are complementary same time—and rightly—one must consider public services professions, which is one of the reasons that we have and outcomes. So what is the outcome of this expenditure such a proud record. There are enormous strengths in on legal aid? A recent report entitled “Effective Criminal both professions. In comparison to international litigation, Defence in Europe” considered which jurisdiction was the relationship between barristers and solicitors in the best at providing an effective criminal defence. It will UK makes us pre-eminent as a profession. Similarly, in not surprise hon. Members to learn that the jurisdiction criminal law there is, in the main, a good relationship. that came out best, along with Finland, was this country. The contrast between High Court advocates and the That was largely due to the source of legal aid. Bar has often been characterised too starkly. In the Why do we have this legal aid system? It was established main, the improvement is helpful, but it needs to be some 60 years ago not because we were cajoled by an dealt with carefully, with proper training and quality, international agreement or because we felt we should be particularly for High Court advocates. subject to any European convention; it was established Obviously, we need to avoid the abuse of the referral because we wanted to apply the principle of the rule of fee arrangements that sadly seems to be emerging in law. That was summed up well by the US Supreme various areas. However, we should not pit one against Court Justice Hugo Black in 1965, when he said: the other. That is not the real threat to the independence “There can be no equal justice where the kind of trial a man of the legal profession and the Bar. There are opportunities gets depends on the amount of money he has.” in the commissioning arrangements for smaller solicitors’ An independent criminal Bar funded through the legal firms to be subcontracted by barristers and brought aid system helps—indeed, it is crucial—to uphold equal into the family of commissioning, where previously justice. What is that equal justice? It is equal justice for they could be excluded by large contracts. The big the innocent and the guilty, for the falsely accused who threat is in the commissioning field, where we are entering 255WH Criminal Bar (Public Funding)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Criminal Bar (Public Funding) 256WH

[Mr David Burrowes] ensure that it is fit for purpose, whatever form it takes, to deal with the new environment. Above all, we must a brave new world, and in the contracting process ensure that we do not undermine the strengths of the presently applied by the LSC. I believe that the way in criminal justice system and an independent legal profession which the LSC has operated in the past provides the accessible to all. biggest threat. There are warnings that must be taken into account 10.17 am and that are already clear in the field of practice, and Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): It there are warnings in procurement processes. What has is always a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the happened to family legal aid is a legacy of how the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes); as a previous Government oversaw the decimation of highly young barrister it was always a pleasure to receive skilled and committed solicitors, often with great experience instructions from him in chambers. I must declare that of dealing with key issues and vulnerable clients carefully. for the past seven years I was a member of the junior Existing experience has, in many ways, been excluded Bar, practising first in London and then in-house for a from the process. The rug has been pulled from under firm in Kent before coming to this place. the feet of many providers. We have been left with legal The key point for me, having been through the system— aid deserts, as we prophesised when in opposition. practising, not going through the criminal justice system Poole in Dorset, with a population of 138,299, has been in another way—is that we have in our society a great left with one family law solicitor to provide publicly belief in our liberty and freedom. The criminal justice funded work. system and the legal profession might not be perfect, Providing solicitors of choice for vulnerable defendants but when one looks around the world one sees that it is is a matter of concern. In mental health law, those who one of the finest. It is the front-line professionals—those currently provide for the most vulnerable often have at the Bar, in-house barristers and High Court advocates— expertise in dealing with vulnerable clients, but now who ensure that people’s liberty is preserved. If there is solicitors are effectively being imposed on those clients any chance that people’s liberty may be put in danger, by the LSC. In the area of administration, there was an we must consider seriously, in terms of the whole concept example in July of the duty solicitor rotas being reissued of our society, how to preserve that liberty and freedom. twice for a six-month period. Firms were missed off the On the point about criminal legal aid and the criminal rotas, areas were put in the wrong position and a simple Bar, the people on the front line are those at the junior process led to chaos. Is that the prospect for the Bar. For a case in the magistrates court, it will be a commissioning process for the Bar and others? member of the criminal Bar who will have to travel to Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con): Is my hon. Friend the court, take instructions, give advice and, after that, aware that across England and Wales the number of pass the case on to the more experienced member, if so solicitors’ firms is diminishing fast? In Stapleford, a be, of Queen’s counsel. town in my constituency, there is now no solicitor It was a real pleasure to listen to my hon. and learned available to provide advice for people with real need in Friend the Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox), family circumstances. They must travel many miles into and I fully agreed with his eloquent speech. If there are Nottingham for that advice, and they are often vulnerable, drastic cuts in legal aid, the junior members of the Bar quite literally, faced with a violent partner. will be most affected. Over the past 20 years, the Bar has worked hard to ensure that it is diverse, that it is not Mr Burrowes: My hon. Friend makes her point well. simply people with independent means who can come In that context, the Minister is facing difficult decisions to the Bar, and that people from all different backgrounds on funding restraints. That context is so important that are able to come to the Bar on merit. If there are drastic I am sure he will take account of it. There is an cuts, there will be an element of going back 20 years, impression that the Ministry is in chaos and that it is and that cannot in any way, shape or form be right. having to pick up the bill, but it is not the same the People often equate barristers with high earnings, but other way round; there is zero tolerance of any minor there is a key difference for members of the Bar: income error when the LSC submits a bill and funding is not tax is linked to earnings. They have to pay tax on their provided. As the Public Accounts Committee rightly earnings, not their receipts. Legal aid is already at concluded, the LSC lacks a grip of the basics and is ripe difficult levels; any further reduction would mean that if for reform, and I look forward to that reform being there was a delay in money coming in, those who could pursued by the Government. carry on in fair weather, and who have been there for a Finally, we have to talk about money—something we long time, would no longer be able to do so. The do not like doing—because there is a concern about taxation system must take into account the fact that cash flow and payment. Solicitors often have to wait members of the Bar pay tax on earnings, not receipts. some time for payment, and now the goalposts have It is accepted that the monitoring and regulation been moved by the LSC. Previously, it would step in to work of the Legal Services Commission over the past help if 5% of a bill was awaiting payment, but now it number of years has been absolutely awful. We hear has moved that to 10%. That is a warning to the Bar stories—and facts, such as those that are set out in the about what happens when we get into bed with that area report that I have here—of lawyers being overpaid by of commissioning. £25 million. When the person in the street hears that, In conclusion, it is important that we stand up for the they say, “Lawyers are paid a lot.” We must ensure important principles of the rule of law that underpin proper regulation and monitoring of the current system, legal aid. We of course must cut waste and inefficiencies, to see whether it is having an adverse effect on criminal which I am sure the Minister has been tasked with, look justice, and to see how the current means-testing approach, at high-cost cases and properly reform the LSC to brought in by the previous Government, is being applied. 257WH Criminal Bar (Public Funding)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Criminal Bar (Public Funding) 258WH

I spoke to a practitioner on the front line—a solicitor I acknowledge that a comparison of the costs of our in Kent—who said that there is a four-week delay in legal aid system and those incurred in inquisitorial legal aid. Then, when the case goes to the Crown court, systems is not necessarily straightforward because of there could be a situation at a preliminary hearing, or a the differences between the two. The basic principle, plea and case management hearing, where someone which I am sure that all of us support, is that, whatever turns up without a representative, and the case has to be the outcome of the comprehensive spending review as it adjourned. Adjourning the case takes us back to a relates to the legal aid system, we should not be in a position where taxpayers’ money is wasted. We are far position where people are not represented in criminal from having an efficient, well-run and proper system, cases. but that is what must be put into practice. There are clearly some failings in the present system. We have at present a means-tested system that leads All the previous speakers expressed concerns about the to scenarios in which people act either pro bono or level of fees. As Members will know, if 50% of the legal under fixed-fee rates, and they may not be of the quality aid budget is being spent on 1% of the cases, it may not or have the expertise that the independent Bar can be that the fees are excessively high but that perhaps the provide. Defendants may decide that they are better off cases are taking longer than is necessary—not deliberately, just pleading guilty because, at the end of the day, they but perhaps there is a slight incentive to ensure that they do not have the means. That goes against our fundamental go on longer than is totally necessary. That needs to be principles. If someone is innocent, they should be able looked at, particularly if it means that less funding is to fight their case all the way. We should go back to a available for less high-profile cases in which we would position that this country can be proud of, in also want people to be properly represented. which innocent people have the means to fight for their I assume that what the Prime Minister said about freedom. senior people working in the public sector earning a I know that other hon. Members wish to come into multiple of no more than 20 times what the lowest-paid the debate. I was taught at the Bar that brevity is a workers in their field receive may impose some interesting virtue, not a vice, and I am very much going to apply restrictions on the level of fees that might be available to that advice. My hon. and learned Friend the Member barristers doing work that is funded by legal aid. I for Torridge and West Devon discussed independent wonder whether the Minister would like to comment on commissioning by the Bar, direct access, and regulatory that when he responds to the debate. caveats in respect of quality assurance. At this time, On another aspect that I am sure other Members are when there are difficulties, we must consider carefully concerned about—the hon. and learned Member for how we can move forward and preserve the Bar’s Torridge and West Devon referred to the availability of independence. That is one of the best ways, at this legal aid in MPs’expenses cases—the name van Hoogstraten difficult time, to move forward and preserve the Bar’s will be familiar to all Members here today. The safest identity. thing I can say is that he is a colourful gentleman. Estimates of his fortune vary widely—hundreds of millions Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair): Before calling the last would probably be a safe figure to quote—yet apparently Back-Bench speaker, I would like to remind Members, he received £1.12 million in legal aid. I do not know especially the new Members here, that it is normal whether there have been changes since he received that practice for the Chairman to be notified in advance that funding that would preclude that from happening now. a Member wants to speak in a one-and-a-half-hour Very helpfully, the hon. and learned Gentleman shakes debate. his head, which indicates that perhaps nothing has changed, and that such funding would still be available to someone who claims that they have no cash assets— 10.24 am Mr van Hoogstraten’s assets had been frozen. We clearly Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): It is a have to address that. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. I congratulate the hon. and learned Member for Torridge Mr Buckland rose— and West Devon (Mr Cox) on securing this debate. I shall not attempt to claim anything like the level of Tom Brake: What sort of action can we take? If a detailed expertise that he and other hon. Members have small number of complex cases ties down half the on this subject, nor shall I be able to defend the livelihood available funding for legal aid, can anything be done to of the criminal Bar quite as assiduously as they have shorten the process without impacting on the quality of this morning. The hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate legal advice and the handling of the case? The difficult (Mr Burrowes) referred to special pleading. I am not balance between setting the fees at a publicly acceptable sure whether any of what has been said this morning level, and setting them at one that ensures that there are falls into that category. I feel that perhaps my role here people able and willing to advocate, needs to be found. is to make it clear to anyone flicking through the TV When the Minister responds, I hope that he will clarify channels who stumbles across this debate that they are his view on whether the Legal Services Commission has not actually watching a courtroom drama. a better idea of the costs and profits associated with I am pleased that the coalition programme includes a legal aid cases, to which other hon. Members referred. fundamental review of the legal aid system. That was The Minister will know that the Legal Services Commission inevitable and unavoidable, in today’s economic climate. The was criticised by the Public Accounts Committee. hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate referred to the fact There are no panaceas. Some have advocated no win, that we have the most generous system of legal aid in no fee arrangements as a solution, but, clearly, it is the common-law world. Of course, we should be proud unlikely that anyone would want to pursue, on that of that, if all the money is being spent well. basis, cases involving the police. 259WH Criminal Bar (Public Funding)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Criminal Bar (Public Funding) 260WH

Mr Buckland: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s The hon. and learned Member for Torridge and West analysis of the problem of funding criminal legal aid Devon began by saying that the art of advocacy was key cases, but does he accept that one problem is whether it to his profession. I declare a non-interest in that I am is right to make people of means who are acquitted pay not a barrister and never have been. Today, I am for their legal representation when they emerge from the undertaking the art of advocacy on behalf of my noble court free and not guilty? We have to grapple with that Friend Lord Bach, who was the Minister in the Department question. Ultimately, although van Hoogstraten was responsible for these matters, and obviously cannot convicted by a jury, the Court of Appeal ordered a speak here today and defend the previous Government’s retrial and, for legal reasons, it was adjudged that there record. Prior to the election I had responsibility for could be no further trial, so he is not, perhaps, the best prisons, probation and, latterly, the police, so I contributed example. We should focus on people of means who have to the work of the Bar in that role. I hope we can discuss been convicted. Finally, and I do not want to take up some of the key issues that the hon. and learned Gentleman too much time, one problem is— raised and hear some of the solutions that the new Government wish to bring forward. Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair): Order. I begin by, in a sense, disagreeing with the hon. and learned Gentleman in what I hope is a positive, constructive Mr Buckland: Forgive me. and amiable way. The previous Government did recognise that the Bar and the criminal Bar have an important Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair): It is difficult when we role in our democratic society. I wish to place on the have a room of lawyers, but interventions are supposed record the fact that the right to a fair trial and representation to be short. is essential in a democratic society, because it is just as much a part of our democratic process as this House Tom Brake: May I apologise to the hon. Gentleman and this debate today. As my hon. Friend the Member for not giving way earlier? I was not aware that he was for Kingston upon Hull East also recognises, there are rising until I caught sight of him in the corner of my challenges in that role that demand skills, professionalism eye. He makes a valid point, and I was going to come on and the support of Government, not only to achieve to financial contributions and to what extent people independence, but to recognise and value the profession should be willing to contribute to support their case. I as a whole. I hope that there will be common ground on am interested to hear what the Minister has to say. The that, whatever our political differences on other issues. hon. Gentleman is right in relation to Mr van Hoogstraten: he was eventually acquitted in the criminal case. As I Mr Cox: I hope hon. Members understand that the, understand it, however, he was found guilty in a civil perhaps, acerbity with which I referred to the previous case, although he has stated that he will not be handing Government’s record was coloured by remarks from over a single penny in relation to the outcome of that successive Home Secretaries about bent briefs and lawyers case. The hon. Gentleman has raised important points who tried too hard. In the light of the extremely enlightened for the Minister to respond to. comments that the right hon. Gentleman has just made, On the CPS, if cases are adjourned unnecessarily, I am sure he will agree that those were unfortunate costs are incurred, and there may be scope for improving remarks, which gave the profession the belief that its on that. Clearly, this would not assist the legal profession, values were not shared by the then Government. but it would be interesting to hear from the Minister Mr Hanson: I said what I said, and I hope the hon. what success he is having in stopping cases going to and learned Gentleman recognises that I know the Bar court through the use of virtual courts, and the extent has a valuable role and that it serves a full position in to which they can contribute to the process. As someone our democratic society. who is not legally qualified, in any shape or form, I The previous Government had to look at the difficult hope that my few comments still inform today’s debate, decisions that we faced in terms of the potential deficit, and that we hear some convincing responses from the which we are now challenged to look at across the Minister shortly. board, and at how we find efficiencies in the way in which we support the legal aid system financially. My noble Friend Lord Bach, as Minister before the election, 10.34 am tackled that issue head-on. The hon. and learned Gentleman Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Thank you for referred to the notice and order issued on 6 April, calling me, Mr Bone; I share the pleasure of others in before the dissolution of Parliament, which placed on serving under your chairmanship for the first time. I record some decisions that we had to take. congratulate the hon. and learned Member for Torridge In 2008-09, £2.1 billion was spent on legal aid between and West Devon (Mr Cox) on securing the debate. I also the criminal and civil budgets; that is an important congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston amount of resource. It is important work and it is vital upon Hull East (Karl Turner) and the hon. Members that we recognise that legal aid is essential, as is the for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes), for Gillingham advocacy role, in developing a civilised society. People and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) and for Carshalton depend on legal aid for access to representation in both and Wallington (Tom Brake) for contributing to it. It is criminal and civil cases, particularly those who have also worth mentioning the hon. Members for Enfield difficult legal problems, particularly in times of economic North (Nick de Bois), for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) and hardship. Legal aid practitioners provide a fantastic for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) who have sat through service and should be paid accordingly. As the previous the debate and shown an interest in this matter, and the Government recognised, there are issues with how we contribution of the Whip, the hon. Member for Kenilworth rebalance the funding, identify the best efficiencies and and Southam (Jeremy Wright). It shows that there is run the system in the future, and the Minister will have considerable interest in the matter before us. to face those challenges. 261WH Criminal Bar (Public Funding)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Criminal Bar (Public Funding) 262WH

We have seen a huge increase in the legal aid budget if we were re-elected, on agency status for the LSC. from £545 million in 1982-83 to £2.1 billion in 2008-09, Efficiencies could be made in the system as a whole, and which is an average increase of 5.3% a year. The previous we need to consider them generally to ensure that we Government believed that that was unsustainable, as I receive extra value from the system. believe the current Government will. I want to give the Minister 15 minutes to respond, but I shall touch on three areas of concern to Labour Mr Burrowes: The figures for the legal aid budget Members. As my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston show that it has increased, but is it not important to upon Hull East said, we face proposed cuts of £2 billion break them down to show where there have been increases? in the Ministry of Justice over the next three years if we For example, the criminal legal aid budget in the lower believe what is said about the CSR. Will the Minister courts is under control, and indeed savings are being say whether that will fall in part on legal aid in the next made, which is unique in recent years. year and beyond? If not, how does he expect the Prison Mr Hanson: I accept what the hon. Gentleman said. I Service, the probation service, sentencing policy and was coming to the fact that at the moment the criminal other aspects of the Ministry’s funding to be able to legal aid budget is about £1.1 billion of the £2 billion, meet that level of cuts, which I believe are unnecessary and that the civil and family legal aid budget is around given the choices that the new Government could have £900 million. What has happened over the years—this made on those issues and public spending? is why Lord Bach made his decision when he was the We were not afraid of saving resources, which is why Minister—is that the criminal law side of the legal aid we introduced the measures that the hon. and learned budget was beginning to eat into the resources available Gentleman is concerned about, but a line must be for the civil and family legal aid budget. drawn, and I would welcome the Minister’s support for protection of the public and defence of people’s right to Mr Cox: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? enjoy the services of the profession. What consultation will he have with the Bar and service users on those Mr Hanson: I want to give the Minister time to issues and the points that have been mentioned? How respond, but I will give way for the last time. will he ensure that the social and welfare aspects of the legal aid budget—this was raised by my hon. Friend the Mr Cox: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that Member for Kingston upon Hull East—for those who the fact that the statute book is now replete with another depend most on legal aid services are considered? Such 3,000 criminal offences, which have been created since people depend on those for housing and employment 1997, might have something to do with expansion of issues, and in civil cases dealing with social welfare the legal aid budget? concerns. An article in The Times in August tantalisingly Mr Hanson: There are cases to be made for all sorts raised the possibility of that being a major target for the of things. The fact that crime fell by 36% might have Government. That choice would be wrong, because the something to do with some of the issues that we brought Government would again ensure that the burden of forward over the past 13 years, but such matters are for public spending cuts fell on those who are least able to a wider debate in due course. bear them: the vulnerable, and those who need the service most and do not have recourse to other forms of We had to consider how to make savings on that finance for their legal requirements. budget, and the hon. and learned Gentleman mentioned his concern that we made cuts of around 4.5% a year for There are key issues for the Government to address, the following three years, including this year, which and I welcome this debate. The Labour Government totalled about 13.5%, in advocates’ graduated fees, coupled took a responsible approach to these issues, and tried to with extending those fees to cases due to last up to save resources efficiently and effectively. Opposition 60 days. We had a choice, and Lord Bach could have Front-Bench spokesmen will watch carefully to see how taken that hit in one go—proposals were before him to the Government respond to the challenges that they, make a drastic cut of 17.9% immediately—but we chose not the economy, have set for themselves ideologically to phase that in over three years as part of the savings to cut public spending still further. We shall watch to see that we knew we had to make in the Ministry to ensure whether that impacts on the poorest and damages the that we met the coming CSR obligations. The Minister safety of our society through other choices being made will surely face similar obligations, perhaps with the on prisons, probation and sentencing. increasing difficulty of a further £2 billion of savings in his Ministry’s budget if we believe what the Lord Chancellor 10.46 am and other hon. Members have said. My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull East said that that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice would be very difficult for the Ministry and the people (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): I welcome you to the Chair, who depend on legal aid, particularly if further cuts to Mr Bone. I believe that this is your first debate as the service are driven forward over and above the challenges Chairman, and I hope that it is the first of many. I am a that we had to face and which the hon. and learned non-practising solicitor, but I have never engaged in Gentleman mentioned. legal aid work. I congratulate my hon. and learned Friend The Labour Government highlighted the importance the Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox) on of driving down costs and of ensuring that we consider securing this debate, which is timely. Many issues have areas such as the tendering process and developing been raised, and I will do my best in the time available alternatives. We considered a range of reforms and, as to address them. the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate said, more My hon. and learned Friend is an experienced criminal must be considered, such as high-cost cases and the barrister and, as I would expect of a leading silk, argued status of the LSC. We had planned to introduce proposals, his case strongly, as did my hon. Friends the Members 263WH Criminal Bar (Public Funding)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Criminal Bar (Public Funding) 264WH

[Mr Jonathan Djanogly] £9 per head in Australia and Canada, and £11 in New Zealand, but we spend £38 for every man, woman and for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake), for Gillingham child in England and Wales. In the current financial and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) and for Enfield, Southgate situation, that is unsustainable. (Mr Burrowes), and the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner). Tom Brake: My point is not directly related to the I should say at the outset that the Government agree debate, but I would like to raise a point with the that we need good-quality advocates to prosecute and Minister about legal aid, particularly the availability of defend in criminal cases, and to ensure that the criminal legal aid to British citizens in foreign countries and the justice system works effectively and fairly. My hon. and extent to which the Government are able to publicise its learned Friend the Member for Torridge and West availability. Devon and others have argued passionately for the continued future need for an independent Bar, and I Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair): Order. It does not help support that. However, it is important to recognise that when the hon. Gentleman starts by saying that his point the legal landscape in this country is changing and we is not relevant to the debate. must all acknowledge that; we must adapt to it, and to the financial realities of the current economic climate. Mr Djanogly: As I have said, the cost of the legal aid system has risen over time. The problems were well I will deal later with the various points made, but recognised by the previous Administration, but their before that it may help if I speak about legal aid more piecemeal attempts at reform often served only to add widely in the current context. As hon. Members know, to the upward pressures on cost, and they did little to the Government have pledged to reduce the budget address the underlying causes of cost or to look at the deficit to deal with the acute financial crisis and to situation in the round; they found it too complicated to encourage economic recovery. That is something that deal with. We want to take a different approach and the whole Government must do. However, we are not look at the whole legal aid system and the wider justice driven only by economic considerations; the financial system. With respect to my hon. and learned Friend the situation is a rare and urgent opportunity to develop Member for Torridge and West Devon, legal aid is not imaginative and creative policies. I accept that our only about the fees paid to lawyers; that is the wrong policy should not be determined only by the need to starting point. The starting point should be more deal with the deficit. fundamental questions, such as: what is legal aid for? In June, we announced that we were considering our What is the role of the state in legal aid? Who needs policy on legal aid. That reflects the aim of creating a access to legal aid? How should we fund legal aid? What more efficient legal aid system as set out in the coalition are the alternatives, in civil cases, for resolving disputes Government’s document of 20 May. My hon. Friends in a way that avoids expensive court processes and the the Members for Enfield, Southgate, and for Carshalton need for lawyers? How should we set the price we pay and Wallington voiced their concerns about the operation when legal aid is required? Importantly, what can be of the Legal Services Commission. I confirm that I have done to encourage the resolution of legal problems, established a good working relationship with the LSC both criminal and civil, in a timely and proportionate and that we are working through some of the issues. I way? should also say that the Government have decided to My hon. and learned Friend asked about timing. We replace the LSC with an executive agency of the Ministry have been assessing such questions over the summer as of Justice, in the belief that that will strengthen part of our consideration of legal aid, and I can confirm accountability and control of the legal aid fund. to him, and to the right hon. Member for Delyn, that by As the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) autumn we will be in a position to seek views on our said, there have been several reviews of legal aid in emerging proposals in a full consultation. I also confirm recent years under the previous Government. For example, that the resulting Green Paper will outline our proposals Lord Carter of Coles’s report of July 2006 proposed a for the way forward for criminal legal aid. market-based approach to reform. The previous I will now look specifically at issues of criminal Administration implemented some of Lord Carter’s advocacy. The world is changing in a number of ways. I recommendations, but they did not succeed in implementing have already mentioned the need to reduce public spending, price competition for criminal legal aid work. and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge I can confirm to the right hon. Member for Delyn and West Devon has rightly highlighted the fact that in that we are seeking to develop an approach to legal aid the dying days of the last Parliament, the previous spending that takes into account the necessary financial Administration decided to reduce advocate fees by constraints, the interests of justice and the wider public 13.5% over three years, with the first stage of that cut interest. We are seeking to develop an approach that is coming into effect last April, and he provided details of compatible with necessary access to justice for those those statements. Although we have no plans to reverse who need it most, the protection of the most vulnerable that decision, I confirm to my hon. and learned Friend in our society, the efficient performance of the justice that we want to look at the efficiency of the whole legal system and our legal obligations. aid system, which I agree will go beyond the criminal The cost of the legal aid system as a whole has risen Bar. At this stage, however, I am not prepared to rule over time. The scheme now costs over £2 billion per out any specific types of reform. annum and, as has been recognised by my hon. Friend Another change in the landscape is the increasing the Member for Enfield, Southgate, it is one of the most number of higher court advocates competing for work generous schemes in the world. We spend significantly with the criminal Bar. I understand that there are now more on legal aid than most other comparable countries. at least 2,500 solicitor-advocates in practice in the higher For example, the per capita spend on legal aid is about courts. That means that the Bar no longer has exclusive 265WH Criminal Bar (Public Funding)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Criminal Bar (Public Funding) 266WH access to Crown court work. I know that the Bar subject to a number of caveats. In particular, those fees welcomes healthy competition and believes that it is include VAT and do not take into account chamber well placed to offer specialist expertise in advocacy, expenses. particularly in more complex cases. Equally, the Bar has grown over time. Thirty years ago, there were just over Mr Cox: As the Minister knows, such fees may have 4,500 barristers in self-employed practice. Twenty years been accumulated for work carried out over a period of ago there were more than 6,500, and today the number years. It is wholly wrong to give the impression that of barristers in private practice is greater than 12,000. such figures are the fee for some months’ work, or a Taken together, the changes mean that it is unlikely that year’s work; I know the Minister will accept that. there will be enough publicly funded criminal case work Mr Djanogly: I do accept that, but I wanted to give to support the number of people who wish to earn a some idea of the amount of public money that is being living from publicly funded practice at the criminal Bar. paid out. That is a simple economic fact of life. Looking at the wider regulatory picture, we are currently My hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and commencing the Legal Services Act 2007, which will Rainham spoke about the need to recognise and protect encourage greater competition and innovation in the the diversity of the Bar. I agree with his sentiments and provision of legal services and a better focus on the it is an important issue. However, the numbers of black, consumer. That programme of work has already made minority ethnic and women barristers are affected by important changes to the way that legal services are issues other than simply fees. As I have already argued, regulated in England and Wales, and it will also allow legal aid exists to provide help for those who need it. In for alternative business structures. It will allow lawyers criminal cases, that means the defendant who cannot and non-lawyers to work together as one enterprise to afford to pay for representation in cases that pass the provide legal and non-legal services. “interests of justice” test, which in practice tends to To help pave the way for those new business structures, exclude the more minor criminal cases. Let me be clear: legal disciplinary practices have already been introduced. it is not the purpose of legal aid to provide a living for That has made it possible for different types of lawyers any particular number of lawyers. Instead, taxpayers’ to work collaboratively to provide legal services. For money should be targeted at those who cannot afford to decades, members of the criminal Bar have complained pay for their own defence, when that is required in the that solicitors have the whip hand. It is time for the Bar interests of justice. to embrace the new opportunities and equality of position My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge that the Legal Services Act will provide. I hope that that and West Devon raised the issue of a single fee for opportunity will be grabbed. Crown court litigation and advocacy. Given the likelihood As recognised by my hon. and learned Friend the that a single fee for Crown court cases covering litigation Member for Torridge and West Devon, I was encouraged and advocacy would encourage greater efficiency between to hear Nicholas Green, QC, the chairman of the Bar, litigator and advocate, one should expect that point to recently indicate that the Bar is preparing to change and be considered carefully, among other options for reform. adapt by setting up procurement companies that will That point was also raised by my hon. Friend the enable groups of barristers to bid for criminal defence Member for Carshalton and Wallington. work. I have met Mr Green and other senior members of the Bar, and I will continue to work closely with As a point of principle, the so-called VHCCs—very them on the issue. Mr Green has been travelling the high-cost cases—consume a disproportionate amount length and breadth of England and Wales to explain to of the legal aid budget. Half the Crown court legal aid members of the Bar, face to face, why it is time for the budget is now swallowed up by fewer than 1% of cases. I Bar to prepare for change. That is a sensible course to am keen to do all that we can to reduce the number and advocate, and I urge all members of the Bar to look costs of long, complex cases that are bad for the justice carefully at the material that the Bar Council is producing system. We will look at that issue in the Green Paper but on the subject. I do not think that the majority of to clarify, contributions are returned to acquitted defendants, members of the Bar, as part of a referral profession, can although means-tested contributions now mean that afford to be aloof as we move forward in what is likely those who can afford to do so pay towards the cost of to be an increasingly competitive environment. their representation. I do not want to pre-empt the consultation paper that Earnings at the criminal Bar vary enormously. We we plan to publish this autumn, but we must consider know that some barristers at the most junior end are far whether there is a case for the greater use of competition from fully occupied, and as a result their earnings are in providing legal aid. I think that my hon. and learned low. However, at the more senior end of the Bar, earnings Friend will accept that, as long as it is done correctly can be high. My hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and fairly. and Wallington asked about fee levels. The previous In conclusion, I say to my hon. and learned Friend Administration published information on that, which that however our thinking develops, I want a level showed that for 2008-09, the highest-paid barristers playing field so that barristers, other advocates and took £928,000 from the criminal legal aid budget. One litigators can compete on an equal basis. The Bar hundred and twenty barristers were paid more that Council is right to advocate change, so that the Bar can £250,000 in criminal legal aid, and a total of 416 were not only survive but prosper in the longer term in a paid more than £150,000. I accept that those figures are changed legal services market. 267WH 15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Rail Services (Enfield) 268WH

Rail Services (Enfield) As for the main eastern Lea Valley line, which goes through Enfield Lock and Brimsdown, we have a mix of limited-stop and local trains, governed by 15-minute 11 am scheduled Stansted Expresses. West Anglia is one of the Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): I was delighted most demanding and pressurised rail corridors in the to hear that this is the first time that you have chaired country. There is no place for a fast train to pass a Westminster Hall, Mr Bone. I can confirm that this is slower one until Broxbourne, some 17 miles from central my first debate in Westminster Hall. I am sure that you London, with the obvious result that the faster trains do will agree that at our respective ages, it is good to be not go fast enough and the slower trains are going maidens in anything. slower than required and are not able to stop and serve I am grateful to have secured the debate. I requested all the stations. That leads to immense frustration for it because of the significant disquiet about delays and commuters on platforms, who are quite keen to get on overcrowding from Enfield Town, Turkey Street, Southbury, those trains. There are no winners at the moment. Enfield Lock and Brimsdown railway stations. Unlike The railway area that I am talking about is predicted in other parts of north London, there are barely any to grow, in passenger transport terms, by up to 37%. alternatives to rail for commuters in Enfield. I am Admittedly, we may see some variation in that, given grateful to have had my right hon. Friend the Minister’s current economic circumstances, but it is a fast-growth time on many previous occasions, when she has shown area. It is true that over the whole franchise, there will considerable interest in commuter services for my be up to 120 new carriages in 2011-12, but they will constituents. I also welcome my hon. Friend the Member principally be focused on the 12-coach train fast services. for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes), who has worked The losers will be Enfield suburban services. So it really closely with me on the issues under discussion today. is a case of when, not if, we can invest in additional I am keen to show that the new franchise agreements track and signalling as well. could be used positively to support wider community I now turn to the wider national picture, examining objectives as well as to deal with the immediate transport the linkage between Government rail policies and the issues, but to understand that opportunity, we need to franchising process. As we know, National Express appreciate the local geography and how the railway is operates under a franchise awarded by the Strategic Rail organised. That will enable us to learn from past mistakes Authority in 2004. The specification focused on improving and look to the future. performance, but it also allowed more Stansted Express Let me start with the local area. Enfield as a community trains, which, as I have explained, did not do Enfield is already changing. There are, of course, classic suburbs, services any favours. At best, we were marking time, but but it is worth noting that across the wider borough, services were made worse on the eastern Lea Valley line. there are six of the most deprived areas not just in With the benefit of hindsight, we can see that the London, but in Europe. However, there are also franchise agreement did not deal with the underlying opportunities, particularly in the Lea valley, where we problems, but just worked the existing railway harder. can succeed in regenerating and place shaping for the Of course, that has not necessarily been to our advantage. future. Such plans exist, but they will depend on the It shows that we have lacked investment and are still right infrastructure. In theory, the Lea valley and Enfield waiting for that investment. In that respect, the previous as a whole are linked by the umbilical cord of the Government cannot avoid the blame, because they had railway system. Clearly, there is commuting straight out been controlling the SRA since 2005. of London, through Enfield and up to Cambridge, Latterly, the Labour Government had three simultaneous Stansted and beyond. We can attract, but also need desires: to maintain a command-and-control process in services to attract, inward commuting to help to support relation to the railways, to move the taxpayer to fare-payer regeneration. ratio from 50:50 to about 30:70, and to try to breathe What is the railway offer? In our part of London, we life into a money-go-round of fares generating profits have one main line from Cambridge and Stansted that for investment. That led to the unacceptable highly goes through the eastern corridor of Enfield and the leveraged bids for a number of franchises. The most Lea valley to Tottenham Hale and Liverpool Street. It notorious was the east coast bid by National Express, is run by National Express East Anglia. That franchise which failed commercially in 2009. Sadly, the record also runs the suburban line through central Enfield, shows that that was not the only failure; there was one which serves two end points—Cheshunt and Enfield in 2006 as well. I am no great literary scholar, but as Town—running through Seven Sisters. There is a second Oscar Wilde might have put it, to lose one operator is a suburban line, run by First Capital Connect into Moorgate misfortune; to lose two is somewhat careless. Unfortunately, via Finsbury Park, which serves western Enfield. it proves that the franchising money-go-round is not Both suburban lines are overcrowded. There is no working. question about that, particularly for the underground That brings us to the national position on franchising. interchanges, and the train capacities are limited. In If the money-go-round is not working, the funding particular, from Cheshunt and Enfield Town via Seven rules must change, but that depends on how franchises Sisters, there are at best six trains an hour, with perhaps are constructed. The basis of franchising has a history six to eight coaches. In the off-peak period, there are at of always changing. Objectives have focused on lowest best two services an hour from Enfield Town. Such net subsidy, highest premiums or achieving specified services can hardly be described as underground or even service performance and quality for passengers. That metro standard. The problems have been compounded meant increasingly that although operators might have by limited investment in recent years. I should add that been working in the private sector, they had a straitjacket only five stations across the whole west Anglia network on them that prevented them adding the value that are gated, and revenue is being lost as a result. passengers and commuters want. 269WH Rail Services (Enfield)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Rail Services (Enfield) 270WH

In parallel, the contractual length of franchises had would be under current rules of 1.46:1. That is before been adjusted. Sometimes they were on a bespoke basis. we take into account the greater community and economic A franchise was longer if a railway needed more investment benefits. I understand that 1.5 is the guideline for investment. in trains. However, in recent times the norm has been There is a strong case. about seven years, sometimes with an extension for As an aside, many stakeholders regret that the current good behaviour. Fundamentally, as many of us recognise, official proposals for four trains per hour to Stratford that short-termism does not incentivise major investment from the Lea valley line through Enfield will only exist by the private sector. for the 2012 Olympic games. The Enfield report shows Furthermore, the franchising rules did not achieve how a revision to train-stopping patterns on the Lea the right outcomes for National Express East Anglia valley line could regularly achieve four trains per hour, lines in Enfield. Passengers’ overall satisfaction is measured peak and off-peak, to the busiest stations in the areas by the national passenger survey. The operator has requiring regeneration. I am happy to commend the consistently performed below the London and south-east report, on which much work was done, to the Minister. sector average and well below the highest franchise in Other short-term matters must be highlighted, including the sector. That is despite punctuality having improved. work to solve passenger crowding at the Victoria line I noticed today—I trust that the Financial Times is interchanges. I look to action on the local level crossings, correct—that an announcement has been made to grant which are a source of risk—all too tragically, in Enfield, a temporary extension to the franchise for another very recently. I also look to action on performance seven months. I understand the reasons behind that and delay. Improving disability access, particularly at the accept it fully, but what concerns me is that many key interchange routes, is a must. passengers might interpret that as an endorsement of Further progress on studies about expenditure during what has happened in the past. That clearly is not the the new investment periods is needed. For example, a case. It is designed ultimately to allow us to have a long-term franchise should be able to address the broader better system for the future. spectrum of opportunities, including the case for partial The new franchising reform consultation suggests four-tracking on the Lea valley line, which will improve that future franchise bids will be judged on the quality the service, as I have explained, as previously it was of the overall package of proposals. My constituents two-track. will welcome that. Let us look to the future. Public To conclude, I fully support the approach taken by funds are tight. We must look to a new partnership my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State when he between the Government and the private sector to said that he will involve all elements of the rail industry secure long-term funding by train operators to leverage more fully in the decision-making process. I support the better services and facilities. That is good news. Enfield decision, and regard it as vital to accelerate the rail is awaiting a new franchise; it will be one of the first. value-for-money review under the leadership of Sir Roy The Government emphasis on outcomes and long-term McNulty. It is vital that we look to improve our existing franchises presents us with short and long-term infrastructure even in these hard times and his work opportunities. should help drive that forward. For Enfield, it is crucial that franchise agreements set Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Does my hon. Friend out not just clear performance indicators but levels of think that this new franchise might be a model for other investment and service agreements that can be benchmarks, franchises, such as in south-east London? and that they send a clear signal that economically important areas served by railways—such as my Nick de Bois: I am grateful for that intervention. In constituency and neighbouring areas—are open for business fact, I will go on to address such issues—particularly and that we can help rail services to support that and local ones in London, which I am sure my hon. Friend regenerate the area. Our business community and developers faces in his constituency. That is exactly my point: now will be keenly watching franchise agreements before is the time to be bold and imaginative, notwithstanding making investment decisions. West Anglia will, as my the constraints that we are all working within. hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) I shall turn to the priorities that commuters wish to pointed out, be a test for the new Government of the see. These include refurbishing trains, so that we can get new rail management and franchising system. Those consistent appearance and quality, and improving security routes could be exemplary and even a fast-track trial by introducing ticket barriers, and perhaps increasing area for a new approach to delivery. A new franchising CCTV as well. More stations protected by ticket barriers policy presents us with such an opportunity, delivering, will lead to better revenue protection. In addition, investing as it says in the coalition agreement, in the key interchanges of Seven Sisters and Tottenham “the improvements that passengers want—like better services, Hale, which service Enfield, will be crucial in making better stations, longer trains and better rolling stock”. them more accessible. A fundamental priority is train frequency. 11.14 am I accept that, in the short term, infrastructure will largely be as it is now, which limits what can be achieved. The Minister of State, Department for Transport I commend to the Minister an interesting recent report (Mrs Theresa Villiers): It is a pleasure to serve under from the London borough of Enfield showing a positive your chairmanship, Mr Bone. I congratulate my hon. case for a more frequent local train service between Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) on Enfield and Liverpool Street in the off-peak. That analysis securing the debate and presenting an impassioned case is based on journey-time savings and does not include for improvement to rail services in the borough of the other expected community and economic benefits. I Enfield. I recall him raising the issue in Transport believe the benefit-cost ratio, as the report demonstrates, Question Time shortly before the summer recess. I know 271WH Rail Services (Enfield)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Rail Services (Enfield) 272WH

[Mrs Theresa Villiers] programme, but that political decision came late in the day and less than a quarter of what they promised had that he is a staunch campaigner on these matters in his arrived by the time that Labour left office. That leaves constituency, standing up for the interests of local the current Government to deal with the problem during commuters in a highly effective way, alongside my hon. very lean times, when the pressing need to deal with the Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes), deficit that we inherited from our predecessors places whom it is great to see in the Chamber today. As the intense pressure on the public finances. near neighbour of both my hon. Friends—I represent The issue for consideration today is how we address Chipping Barnet—I well understand the importance of the problems experienced by commuters—problems of transport links in the London suburbs. the kind outlined by my hon. Friend—in an affordable My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North set way, consistent with our pledge to address the deficit out his concerns about reliability and performance. As that we inherited from the previous Government. we have heard this morning, train services to Enfield are First, I should mention that I meet senior representatives operated by both National Express East Anglia and of the rail industry and the Office of Rail Regulation First Capital Connect. In my ministerial capacity, I take every month to assess performance levels on all lines, a close interest in the performance of all train operators, and to scrutinise carefully the record of Network Rail but my role as MP for Chipping Barnet means that I and the train operators. Of course, the ORR takes the have an additional reason to scrutinise the performance lead on these matters, but I am grateful to those who of FCC on the Great Northern line, as it serves my participate in what is a very useful process for me. constituency as well as Enfield. Following on from my hon. Friend’s intervention at That franchise experienced significant disruption between Transport questions, I raised the issue of NXEA services October 2009 and January of this year. That was largely in Enfield with the group. caused by industrial action, and Thameslink services As my hon. Friend was kind enough to acknowledge, were the worst affected. However, there were also problems the Government’s wider reform agenda has the potential on the Great Northern line, which serves Enfield. It was to drive forward progress in addressing a number of the particularly regrettable that action by drivers meant issues that he raised. Our approach has three parts: that no trains ran on Remembrance Sunday last year on first, reform of Network Rail; secondly, reform of rail the suburban Great Northern line services. I am relieved franchising; and thirdly, taking forward capacity that the problems that led to that disruption have gone enhancement programmes where they can be reconciled away for the moment, and that First Capital Connect’s with our commitment to address the deficit. overall public performance measure has recovered to As hon. Members will be aware, making progress on reach the levels prevailing prior to that episode. However, reliability and delivering extra capacity depends in no the underlying issue for the railway—namely that on a small part on ensuring that Network Rail, as the number of routes drivers are not under a contractual infrastructure provider, delivers high-quality services to obligation to work on Sunday—obviously has yet to be its customers in an efficient and cost-effective way. In resolved. the case of the NXEA services that we are considering, As far as National Express East Anglia—the main the most recent industry figures indicate that Network focus of my hon. Friend’s remarks this morning—is Rail was responsible for just over 60% of delays on the concerned, in the latest period for which complete franchise. In particular, I am advised that Network Rail performance data are available, 90.8% of NXEA’s trains infrastructure has suffered a number of overhead line arrived on time, according to the PPM moving annual problems. average figure. That is an improvement, albeit a modest I very much welcome the fact that the franchise one, on the 88.6% reliability levels that it inherited from operator and Network Rail are working together to try the previous franchise in 2005. It is also worth noting to address the problem. However, if we are to improve that PPM figures are aggregated across a diverse franchise, Network Rail’s performance and reduce its costs, the covering long-distance, rural and commuter services. company needs to be made more accountable for its That means that they do not necessarily give us all the actions, and that includes demonstrating greater answers, when it comes to the specific performance of accountability for its decisions on executive bonuses. Enfield services. As my hon. Friend pointed out, NXEA’s We are considering a number of options, and we are most recent national passenger survey results indicate working with the ORR and other stakeholders to take that it is below the average for London and the south-east. that work forward. I should make it plain, however, that I agree with my hon. Friend that there is room for the status quo is not acceptable, and we will be making improvement. changes in due course. My hon. Friend referred in some detail to capacity As we heard this morning, the Government are consulting and his constituents’ concerns about crowding. The on reforms to the rail franchising system, and those are latest passenger loading data confirm that overcrowding the second element of our strategy for addressing the is indeed an important issue on some Enfield services. problems outlined by my hon. Friend. The reforms are Anxiety about overcrowding in a number of parts of aimed at moving away from a system in which Whitehall the UK’s rail network increased during the previous specifies highly detailed and prescriptive inputs for Government’s term in office. In my view, one of Labour’s franchises—what my hon. Friend referred to as the most serious mistakes was that it took far too long to command-and-control approach to the railways. Instead, wake up to the seriousness of this problem. It took, for we want a stronger focus on the quality of outcomes for example, over a decade to get moving on projects such passengers, while giving the professionals who run our as Crossrail and Thameslink. Four successive Labour railways more flexibility to apply innovation, enterprise Secretaries of State for Transport promised extra carriages and specialist expertise in working out the best way to under the HLOS—high-level output specification— deliver outcomes. 273WH Rail Services (Enfield)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Rail Services (Enfield) 274WH

We need a more qualitative approach to the assessment used on the Stansted Express route, with some deployed of franchise bids—an approach that judges the quality on Cambridge commuter services. The carriages are of a bid’s overall package of proposals to invest in the expected to enter service from March 2011, and that railways, improve services and grow passenger numbers— will free up carriages that will be used to strengthen rather than focusing solely and exclusively on the binary services on other parts of the NXEA network. The question of the level of subsidy or the premiums to be decisions on exactly where those carriages will go have paid. Again, I hope that that will address some of the yet to be made, but I am advised that stations in Enfield problems involved in what my hon. Friend referred to as will be among those that benefit from the extra capacity. the money-go-round. Additional capacity will be introduced on First Capital Franchises should also be longer. We expect 10 to Connect lines to Enfield in December 2010. In the 15 years to become the normal, expected length, with morning peak, five of the six stations in the borough— the possibility of franchises running for up to 22 and a Gordon Hill, Enfield Chase, Grange Park, Winchmore half years, where significant investment is promised. Hill and Palmers Green—will have three additional The increased certainty that longer franchises will give six-car train services to Moorgate, and one of the train operators will encourage private sector investment existing services will be doubled in size from a three-car in the railways and help to deliver the improvements to a six-car train. The five stations will also be served by that passengers want. My hon. Friend called for us to additional services to Hertford North and Gordon Hill include better services, better stations, longer trains and from Moorgate. The remaining station, Crews Hill, will better rolling stock. On the specific improvements that be served by two additional six-car train services. he asked for, I hope that he will understand that I In the evening peak, the same five stations will have cannot prejudge the process that will commence once an additional three services, two of which will go to the franchise re-let is under discussion, but I encourage Gordon Hill, with the third going to Hertford North. him to take part in the consultation on the re-let as and That is except for Grange Park, which will have two when it starts. additional services running to Gordon Hill. All those Our reformed franchises will set demanding passenger additional services will be six-car trains. Additional satisfaction outcomes for train operators to achieve. services will also run from Gordon Hill to Moorgate. Train operators that do not comply with franchise Crews Hill will benefit from an additional six-car train requirements will face sanctions. Ultimately, in the case running to Hertford North. There will be three more of very serious failure, sanctions will include termination services during the morning peak, and extra carriages of the franchise. The approach that we have set out in will be added to one of the existing services. Evening our consultation document will enable and incentivise peak service capacity will see similar improvements and train operators to respond more effectively and efficiently increases in capacity. Those morning and evening peak to commuters’ concerns. I expect our proposed measures improvements are part of the additional 3,800 peak-time to help address a range of the customer service and seats being added to Moorgate services from December. capacity issues that my hon. Friend outlined. In conclusion, I understand my hon. Friend’s concerns. At this point, I should respond to my hon. Friend’s The Government are working to ensure that we have a questions about the timetable for re-letting the East reliable railway and that crowding problems are addressed. Anglia franchise. I reiterate that I decided to cancel the We face the difficult task of achieving that at the same franchise competition initiated by the previous Government time as tackling the state of the public finances that we to ensure that the new franchise was issued under the inherited from the Labour Government. I have summarised reformed system, and to ensure that passengers using some of the most important initiatives that we are NXEA services could have the benefits of the changes taking to seek to achieve those important goals. When that the coalition has promised to deliver. The franchise the consultation process begins for the re-let of the was due to be re-let and to commence on 1 April 2011, franchises serving my hon. Friend’s constituency, I very but a contractual extension has been agreed until October much hope that he will make his views known. I am sure 2011. that they will be a valuable and welcome contribution I turn now to the third element of Government policy to that important process, just as his remarks this that is relevant to the matters under consideration: morning have been a valuable and welcome contribution delivering additional capacity, where that can be reconciled to the debate. with our commitment to address the crisis in the public finances that we inherited from the previous Government. The Department for Transport is funding 120 new 11.28 am carriages for the East Anglia franchise. Most will be Sitting suspended. 275WH 15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Diabetes (Young People) 276WH

Diabetes (Young People) I recently tabled a question to the Department of Health about its estimate of the number of people with type 1 diabetes. It turns out that the Department does not have an estimate of the total number, but extrapolations [MRS LINDA RIORDAN in the Chair] from quality outcomes and framework data suggest that the figure might be about 230,000, which is some 2.30 pm 10% of the diabetes population. Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan. Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab): It is important that the Department of Health and the coalition First, I would like to acknowledge the help that I have Government show leadership in this area. Is my right received in preparing the background information for hon. Friend not concerned by the latest figures, which today’s debate. I particularly wish to mention the Juvenile seem to suggest that the incidence of type 1 diabetes is Diabetes Research Foundation, Diabetes UK, the Eye increasing by about 4% a year, with the biggest increase Health Alliance, the Aintree University Hospitals NHS in children under five, in whom there has been a fivefold Foundation Trust in my constituency, and last, but by increase in the past 20 years? Does my right hon. Friend no means least, my daughter Siân, who suffers from not agree with me that we need assurances from the type 1 diabetes and who has helped in the preparation Government that they will look into what is happening, of what I am about to say. and will look at what can be done both to tackle the In the past, too often health policy discussions have condition when children are diagnosed, and to understand focused on hospitals, doctors and nurses, with no real why it is occurring and increasing in the way that it is? recognition of the millions of people who live with long-term conditions. Over the past few years the situation Mr Howarth: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend has improved, and now we at least recognise that health for that intervention. The figures that she has cited are care is as much about helping patients to manage their correct, and I was about to go on to mention them. conditions more effectively throughout their lives as it is about mending broken bones in hospital, although the I have mentioned the Department of Health’s estimate. latter is, of course, important. Nevertheless, we are on a The Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation cites estimates long journey.We now recognise that demographic pressures that put the number of children and adults living with and lifestyle-related conditions, including obesity and type 1 diabetes as high as 390,000, or 15% of the diabetes the rising incidence of diabetes, pose major public health population. In a political context, that translates into risks, yet every time we make that statement we risk approximately 500 people in every parliamentary overlooking a serious and growing problem, because it constituency. There seems to be more consensus on the ignores people with type 1 diabetes—many of them number of children and young people with type 1 diabetes: children—whose condition cannot be prevented by about 25,000 children in the UK have it. That means changing their lifestyle. that as many as one child in every 700 has type 1 diabetes. So, what is type 1 diabetes? It is a chronic, life-threatening Of all children and young people with diabetes, 98.6% will condition that occurs when the body’s immune system have type 1. attacks insulin-producing cells in the pancreas. A normal, It is also worth noting that although the condition is healthy body will regulate blood glucose using insulin, not linked to lifestyle factors, the incidence of type 1 but in someone with type 1 diabetes, the blood sugar diabetes is increasing by about 4% a year. The biggest level can go too high or too low because there is increase is in children under five, in whom there has insufficient, or no, insulin to control it. Insulin is the been a fivefold increase in the past 20 years, as my right hormone that transfers glucose from the bloodstream hon. Friend has said. To summarise, this is a complex into the cells to be used for energy. Type 1 diabetes is condition that affects children and young people in typically diagnosed in childhood. The peak age is between significant numbers, and it has a profound impact on eight and 12 years, although in some cases it can be their lives. much higher. I heard today of a case in which the age on Diagnosis often occurs on the occasion of the first diagnosis was 23. As a result, most patients with type 1 major episode of diabetic ketoacidosis, with symptoms diabetes live with the complications of uncontrolled typically evolving over a 24-hour period. The symptoms blood sugar for many more years that those who suffer are predominantly nausea and vomiting, pronounced from type 2. Unlike type 2, type 1 diabetes is not in any thirst, excessive urine production and abdominal pain way linked to being overweight, to lack of exercise or to that might, in some cases, be severe. Left undiagnosed any other lifestyle factor. Living with type 1 diabetes and untreated, diabetic ketoacidosis is fatal. In 2009, an involves a relentless process of managing the condition, eight-year-old boy died from undiagnosed diabetic and there are no days off. ketoacidosis. An ambulance was called but, as it was People with the condition have to rely on a programme thought that the boy was a low priority, was never of finger-prick blood sugar tests and insulin pump dispatched. When an out-of-hours GP was called, the infusions or injections up to 10 times a day, just to stay boy was diagnosed with swine flu and prescribed Tamiflu. alive. Although these tools prolong life, they are not a He died days later. A major problem is that many GPs cure. Even with insulin injections, type 1 diabetes brings are not properly trained to recognise the symptoms and devastating long-term complications, including heart make a diagnosis, and there are countless examples of disease, stroke, blindness, kidney failure and, in some young people being treated for an entirely separate cases, limb amputation. In addition, there is a small but condition, when the real problem is that diabetes has very real chance of sudden death, and life expectancy is been uncontrolled and not even recognised, and appropriate reduced by about 20 years. action therefore not taken. 277WH Diabetes (Young People)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Diabetes (Young People) 278WH

As well as creating the risk of a major catastrophe amendments on the issue. To be fair, I should mention and having ongoing consequences for physical health, that the Minister for Equalities, the hon. Member for type 1 diabetes has a profound effect on the lives of Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone), has children with the condition and their families. It pervades raised the important issue of young women and body every aspect of a sufferer’s life. Everything that the size and image and so on. The idea that young women person eats, drinks and does involves a mathematical have to be stick-thin to be attractive or employable is equation. For the child and their family there are no outrageous. I had not intended to raise this subject, but days off, and even a few hours of trying to forget can be I have discussed it in the past with my right hon. Friend dangerous. Living with this complex, chronic condition the Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) and the is at times very distressing and stressful for many parents, Minister for Equalities. and it is a source of constant anxiety, and often Although this story does not involve a diabetic, it is embarrassment, for young sufferers. related to the issue that has just been raised. A young A survey carried out by the parent group, Children woman spent her entire life, from the age of seven, with Diabetes, showed that a significant majority of training to be a violinist. She performs in concerts and parents had seen their household income decrease, and provides backing music for groups. I am talking about that there had been a notable impact on family life. The the way in which rock groups have attractive young potential for long-term complications is clear and present, women playing a violin and a cello behind them. This and is obviously a worry for many parents. Many children particular young woman had to perform at a festival. worry about being seen as different from their peers, The agent who recruited her said that one of the and a disturbing 50% of parents say that their children requirements in the contract was that she got down to have been bullied as a result of having type 1 diabetes. size zero. I am not talking about a pop star or a Although children and young people with diabetes are model—although I condemn such behaviour in those different in the sense that they continually have to cases as well—but a serious musician who was expected manage their condition, they are like any other young to get down to that sort of weight. It is outrageous, and person in most other ways. They are subject to the same I am so glad that my right hon. Friend the Member for pressures and temptations, such as the ones to use Don Valley raised the matter. alcohol or illegal drugs, which could be fatal in their Diabetes UK has estimated that the number of young case. people with type 1 diabetes who manipulate their insulin Young people with diabetes have also succumbed to a to achieve weight loss could be as much as one third of trend that is informally known as diabulimia. They all patients. Although it is possible that the figure may manipulate their insulin to achieve significant weight not be that high, discussions that I have had with one of loss. In 2004, in “Living with Diabetes”, Susan Caltieri my local hospitals—Aintree University Hospitals NHS bravely explained how the phenomenon had affected Foundation Trust—and specifically with Maureen her life. She said: Wallymahmed, revealed that it is extremely hard to “Instead of dealing with the root of the problems—the relationship quantify the problem because young people tend to I had with my diabetes—1 started blaming my weight, thinking hide the condition from medical staff. I warmly commend the only way to achieve my ambitions of getting on to the stage the work of the unit at Aintree. It manages the transition was to be skinny. I discovered that by decreasing my insulin and in treatment from childhood through to adulthood, eating less, I could lose weight quickly. Eventually there were which is another area that requires attention. periods of time where I didn’t inject insulin at all and could lose up to half a stone a day. 1 had developed a serious eating The causes of the trend to manipulate insulin are disorder...I don’t know how I actually survived. I was completely deeply ingrained in society and cannot be simply addressed. oblivious to the damage I was doing my body.” One thing is clear, though: young people with type 1 diabetes need easily available help and constant access Caroline Flint: I thank my right hon. Friend for to support. Where appropriate, that should include giving way a second time and I congratulate him on access to relevant psychological therapies. securing this debate. What he is outlining to us is a worrying trend among young women who feel that they One obvious difference between young people with have to be a certain size to be attractive. Does he not diabetes and older patients is that those young people agree that it is also worrying that we have heard nothing spend far longer periods of their lives living with variable from the coalition Government, in the form of a public blood sugar levels. Consequently, the ongoing physical health measure, about how they will ensure that young risks that they face typically occur much earlier in life people, particularly young women, with type 1 diabetes than with type 2 diabetic patients. Complications can are supported so that they understand the dangers to include heart disease, stroke, blindness, kidney failure their health of not taking their insulin? Moreover, how and limb amputation. will the support that is there be affected by the unnecessary For the purpose of this debate, I shall take one change to GP commissioning at a local level? example of those complications. Diabetes can affect vision in several ways, but the most serious impact is Mr Howarth: My right hon. Friend makes a strong generally on the blood supply to and within the retina. point. It is a worry that the change in the system, which Most sight loss due to diabetes can be prevented, but it will vest more power with GPs, could have a negative is crucial that the condition is diagnosed early and effect; I hope that it does not. Will the Minister give treated promptly. Up to one third of patients with serious consideration to the way in which conditions diabetes will have background diabetic retinopathy, which such as diabetes will be managed in those changed needs to be monitored carefully as it can develop into circumstances? I fear that GPs’ knowledge of the subject irreversible sight loss. Early detection through screening is too sketchy for them to be able to deal with the matter and treatment is vital to prevent unnecessary sight loss. properly. As and when a Bill comes before the House, I The Department of Health figures suggest that more will—if my party’s Front Benchers do not—table some people with diabetes are now being offered screening for 279WH Diabetes (Young People)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Diabetes (Young People) 280WH

[Mr George Howarth] immediate-term costs of unnecessary unplanned hospital admissions, the UK figure has all the hallmarks of a retinopathy than ever before and to a higher standard, false economy. Indeed, I have heard of instances of which is very welcome. However, the speed of progress young people being refused a pump because the control appears to vary significantly across the country, with of their blood sugar levels has not been considered bad some primary care trusts not offering screening to old enough. Clearly, there is an issue that needs looking at, people with diabetes, which is a cause for concern. regarding the advice that medical practitioners are following. In these difficult financial times, it is worth focusing Guidance from the National Institute for Health and on the cost of diabetes management to ensure that we Clinical Excellence recommends that insulin pump therapy are making the most of all available resources across the is used as a treatment option for adults and children whole health system. Treating diabetes and its complications over 12 if attempts to meet long-term blood sugar levels is extremely expensive. Each year, the NHS spends fail or result in the patient having disabling hypoglycaemia. 10% of its budget on the condition. Given the lack of The NICE guidance also recommends that children reliable data it is difficult to put a definitive figure on under 12 with type 1 diabetes have access to insulin the cost to the NHS of treating type 1 diabetes. However, pump therapy if multiple daily injections are considered we know that once diagnosed, type 1 diabetes requires impractical or inappropriate. intensive control for the rest of the person’s life, and However, despite that NICE guidance on eligibility, with the risk of complications, the cost of treating the there is considerable inequity in insulin pump provision condition in the NHS is high. across the country. In some areas, less than 1% of One of the major challenges that the NHS faces is to people with type 1 diabetes use an insulin pump. Figures help patients manage their conditions more effectively, released earlier this month by the Medical Technology so that the necessary admissions for acute care can be Group indicate that there is indeed a “postcode lottery” avoided. Better management not only saves huge potential of insulin pump access across the UK, with access costs, but makes a significant contribution to improving varying from 0.4% of the type 1 population in Luton to the lives of patients with type 1 diabetes. To achieve 17% in Blackburn. that, we need to ensure that funding within the NHS Only five of 113 primary care trusts that were questioned supports care pathways and innovations that help patients had any kind of strategy in place to implement the manage their condition effectively, which means that NICE guidance on insulin pumps in line with their medical research is vital. statutory duty to adhere to NICE technology appraisals At present, there are no definitive answers about within three months of issue. I hope the Minister will what causes type 1 diabetes or how we can cure it. The follow up that issue with PCTs. Decisions about funding only way that a cure will be found is through greater for pump services seem to be based on cash-flow benefits investment in medical research. In 2009, the Government rather than on the benefits that such services would funding bodies—the Medical Research Council and the provide for patients. National Institute for Health Research—committed Another exciting development that offers real hope £51 million to research to tackle the growing problem of to patients, as long as they are able to access any future diabetes. Of that amount, only £6 million was applicable solution, is the artificial pancreas—the first realistic to type 1 diabetes. By contrast, last year the United hope for a cure for type 1 diabetes, albeit a mechanical States Government spent $150 million, the Australian one. Vital research supported by the Juvenile Diabetes Government $36 million and the Canadian Government Research Foundation is working towards developing an $20 million on funding world-class research to cure, artificial pancreas system, a technology that will do the treat and prevent type 1 diabetes. job of a healthy pancreas. Such a system would provide We could take the easy option and leave it to others exactly the right amount of insulin to the body exactly to carry out the research, but aside from the dubious when it is needed. ethics that that would involve, it would of course miss The artificial pancreas system requires three things: the point that investment in medical research provides an insulin pump, a continuous glucose monitor and an wider economic gains as well as obvious health benefits. algorithm. Insulin pumps and CGMs are already available A recent report by the Office of Health Economics, a and researchers from the Juvenile Diabetes Research health think-tank, concluded that a £1 increase in UK Foundation have developed an algorithm that will allow Government or UK charity spending on medical research the two devices to communicate with each other. Artificial could lead to an increase in private research spending pancreas systems are expected to be publicly available by the pharmaceutical industry of between £2.20 and within the next five years. £5.10. Other research by the Wellcome Trust has estimated However, there is a real risk that while people with that every £1 spent on public or charitable medical type 1 diabetes in the US and other countries will be research yields additional GDP for the UK that is able to use that new technology, people with type 1 diabetes equivalent to a net return of 30p per year in perpetuity. in the UK will miss out, because they do not have access Once innovative treatments or technologies are available, to an insulin pump or a CGM, and because the structures it is essential that patients with type 1 diabetes have and expertise are not in place here to support the access to them. Insulin pump therapy is internationally existing technology, let alone the next sophisticated viewed as the gold standard treatment for type 1 diabetes, technological development. Rectifying those problems reducing the risk of hypoglycaemia—very low blood would be a real indicator that we are serious about sugar—and long-term complications. Despite that, however, having an NHS that has the principles of excellence, less than 4% of the UK’s type 1 population use a efficiency and equity at its heart. pump—far behind Europe, at 15% to 20%, and the I recognise that the cost of an insulin pump, which is United States, at 35%. Given the long-term costs of about £3,000, is significant. However, given that NICE managing the complications of type 1 diabetes and the recognises the value of bariatric surgery—what is normally 281WH Diabetes (Young People)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Diabetes (Young People) 282WH known as the insertion of a gastric band—as a mechanism 3pm to tackle type 2 diabetes and given that such surgery costs up to £7,000, we need to get the costs of adopting Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): I congratulate the innovative medical technology such as an insulin pump right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) on into perspective. securing this important and pertinent debate. It is timely, given that we have a new Government and a new Health In conclusion, what needs to be done? Given that Secretary with responsibility for the issue. This is a great many cases of type 1 diabetes go undiagnosed, we need opportunity for us to help him to help those with the to improve awareness among GPs, so that the condition condition. I register that I am a type 1 diabetic whose can be diagnosed in the first place. There is an argument condition is controlled by injections of insulin. that GPs should be given a series of protocols on how they should deal with certain symptoms. Increased Diabetes, whether type 1 or type 2, is a chronic understanding of the nature of type 1 diabetes is particularly condition for which there is as yet no cure. Type 1 diabetes important given that Government proposals envisage is believed to be genetic, rather than a consequence of that GPs will take the responsibility for commissioning lifestyle; type 2 diabetes is firmly believed to be a care as well as being the first point of call for diagnosis. consequence of lifestyle and diet, and not necessarily of genetic factors. In addition to the early identification of diabetes, we need to encourage commissioners to plan adequately The treatment regimes for types 1 and 2 are slightly for treating the long-term complications. That would different. Treatment of type 2 is very much about diet, include ensuring adequate provision for retinal screening, exercise and changing a sedentary lifestyle. Medicines to close the gap between those being offered screening might be introduced to induce what insulin the body and those actually receiving the test. In particular, we still produces to work better, although injections of must address the “postcode lottery” that exists in relation insulin are increasingly being prescribed for people with to that procedure. type 2 diabetes, particularly those who have had the condition for a long time. The type 1 diabetic is someone Above all, we need to ensure that patients have easy whose pancreas has effectively packed up and said access to care that is shaped around their personal goodbye, so in order to stay alive, they must take needs. In many cases, that will mean providing access to injections of insulin—there is no alternative. Medication a multidisciplinary team, with patients enjoying a consistent is sometimes prescribed later in life to ensure that the relationship with advisers. In addition, psychologists insulin taken works a little faster or more efficiently. For and all those involved in the care of vulnerable young those considered to be at risk of other complications people need to understand the risks of behavioural that tend to come with diabetes, such as strokes or heart complications, such as diabulimia, and the social pressures problems, statins and other such drugs can be prescribed. that can lead to those complications. It is hugely important that GPs are made aware of Just under one in five people with diabetes has type 1. type 1 diabetes. If they do not know about the condition, Most are likely to have been diagnosed before age 40; I they will not recognise it; if they do not recognise it, have had the condition since my late 20s. This debate is they will not diagnose it; and if they do not diagnose it, about diabetes in young people, so I will focus on that. I the consequences for some young people could be fatal. am glad that I was not diagnosed with diabetes as a young person, because it has a major impact on a young We therefore need to be imaginative in the way that person’s life, educational chances, social interactions the NHS funds and provides new therapies. There are and psychological attitude to life. numerous ways to provide advice. The important thing is that patients get that advice when and where they The typical treatment for somebody with type 1 need it. Although special hospital units, such as the one diabetes is perhaps three injections a day of fairly at Aintree that serves my constituency, will continue to fast-acting insulin, taken at meal times. Before going to play a vital role, we need to be open to the idea of using bed, they might take a fourth injection of a slightly other locations as a means of delivering care, particularly longer-lasting insulin to maintain their body’s balance in the primary care sector. through the night, when they are not exerting themselves Ongoing telephone support, community-based pharmacy and require a different type of insulin. There are dozens care and mobile technology all have a role to play. The of types of insulin—fast-acting, slow-acting, mixed—and key is to ensure that we integrate these solutions, so that which insulin or insulin mix is right is a decision for the they work effectively across the local health economy to patient and their GP in light of their circumstances. avoid unnecessary hospital admissions and reduce long-term The condition changes with age. The first insulin that complications. someone is prescribed is not necessarily the one with If I have painted a gloomy picture, perhaps I can which they will continue later in life. New insulins come conclude by making a slightly more upbeat point. The on the market all the time, promising better control and dangers and risks to young people of type 1 diabetes are fewer complications, and from time to time the treatment great, and recent developments can make them even regime is reviewed and the GP or consultant may more serious, but there are examples of leading sportsmen recommend change. Of course, that can cause and women, entertainers and a host of other people complications, as the effect of any change is specific to successful in their chosen professions who manage to the person. I am sure that the right hon. Member for cope with type 1 diabetes, have a life and career and Knowsley will know, if his daughter has ever been even bring up a family. In many respects, their lives asked to change her treatment regime, that a degree of exceed their expectations and those of society. With adjustment must take place before the patient is comfortable help, type 1 diabetes can be managed, and young people with the new regime. who have it can achieve everything in life of which they Many people with diabetes make contact with the are capable. Our responsibility is to ensure that they get health service only once a year. It is a condition that that help. must be managed by the diabetic themselves. For 364 days 283WH Diabetes (Young People)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Diabetes (Young People) 284WH

[Mr Adrian Sanders] We then come to the third stage—higher education. Things are different again when people go up to university. of the year, they are their own consultant. They know They may break the link with their home-town medical their body better than anyone else, and they must take support, whether it is a GP or a consultant. They the decision whether to increase or decrease the dose suddenly come into a university environment, which according to how much energy they are expending or is very different from the home environment. The what type of food they are about to eat. Once a year, the encouragement to do all the things that a diabetic diabetic has a medical check-up. Some good GP practices should not do, in terms of when and what to eat and bring in people twice a year: once to see the GP, once to how much to drink, becomes that much greater. Young see a specialist nurse. Some diabetics might see a medical students with diabetes have reported to me that whatever professional three times a year in addition to seeing medical support services there are at universities lack an their consultant in hospital, but most people who have understanding of that pressure, so there needs to be been diagnosed and are living with the condition normally some improvement in that area. come into contact with the health service only once a The right hon. Member for Knowsley rightly mentioned year. It is vital, therefore, that at that point the health the NICE guidelines on insulin pumps, and it is worth service can detect whether there is a problem, analyse realising what they say, because they are quite limiting, what it is and make correct suggestions about any in terms of the number of people who can be prescribed changes in treatment. pumps. The guidelines recommend that the therapy be For young people of primary and secondary school used when every other treatment has failed. Someone age, one big problem is the stigma of diabetes. There are who has not got on well with injecting insulin or medication a lot of misconceptions out there about what the disease will be put on an insulin pump as a last resort. The is, what it does and what the condition brings. A young NICE guideline for children under 12 says that they person might be told, “I’m sorry, you’re going to have “can have access to insulin pump therapy if multiple daily injections to inject yourself,” but there is a stigma to that. They are considered impractical or inappropriate.” need a clean, perhaps private environment in which to There are lots of incidences of young children finding make that injection. Although great advances have been that injections are impractical and inappropriate because made in injection devices—some are disguised as pens— their school cannot help them, but their cases do not there is still a stigma attached to having an injection, always come to light. even a small, subcutaneous one. They are not great big The criteria are very narrow. In many respects, a child syringes, as they used to be in the old days, but even should be put on a pump as soon as they are diagnosed— with those advances, there is still a stigma. that should be done straight away, no question. What Injections are not the only part of it. A sensible seems to be holding us back is not simply the cost of the diabetic will want to test their blood sugars, which machine, which is about the size of an iPhone, and means taking a blood sample and putting it through a which is permanently attached, giving the wearer a testing machine so the reading can advise them what small dose of insulin throughout the day so that they injection of insulin is required. A clean, discreet environment can go off and do everything they want without having is needed, which is difficult to find for someone in to worry about syringes, needles and all the rest of the school—far more difficult than for me, a Member of paraphernalia. What is important, however, is that pumps Parliament. That is another reason why I am glad I did have proper back-up from technical and medical staff not have the condition as a child. who understand them, and that is where there is a big There are three stages for a young person with diabetes. gap. The all-party group on diabetes came across the Often, in a primary school environment, they may be case of a child on a pump who lives in Portsmouth, but the only person with the condition. Kids are quick to who is supported by a hospital in Leeds. pick up on somebody who is a little bit different or has Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): I apologise for missing special requirements. Often, the primary school might the start of the debate, which is particularly topical, have difficulty coping with a child who has diabetes. given that my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury Many cases are on record—Diabetes UK has done a lot (John Glen) and I had a meeting with the JDRF this of work to highlight the issue—in which primary morning and discussed the very point that the hon. schoolchildren have not been able to get teachers or Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders) raises. I was struck by other school staff to assist them with testing or injecting a number of points, which I hope that he will agree because the school insists that a parent come in to do with. One is that the importance of what he has just so. Working parents simply cannot do that, so in some said about managing the disease in a far more cost-effective cases, parents have had to move children away from and efficient way cannot be overstated, and we can have their desired school to a bigger school, or one that can remote monitoring of blood sugar and dosage levels cope with a child who has diabetes. with a pump. The most shocking thing that I have heard We then move to secondary school. Although secondary is that although our wonderful scientists in Cambridge school is ever longer ago, we can perhaps remember are developing an artificial pancreas, which is an amazing what we were like as teenagers, and the reality is that breakthrough that will mean a mechanical solution to people do not want to be different when they are at type 1 diabetes, UK citizens will not be able to avail secondary school. They do not want to admit that there themselves of the technology. Pump usage is only at is something that they cannot do, particularly if they about 4%, including among the young group that we are male. The reality, however, is that, with the right are discussing, but levels of pump take-up in the US treatment, there is nothing that they cannot do. However, and other areas are as high as 40%. It is absolutely if they cannot, for whatever reason, do what they need self-evident from the point of view of cost-effectiveness to do, they will have difficulties doing what they wish and long-term treatment that the adoption of pumps to do. should be a high priority— 285WH Diabetes (Young People)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Diabetes (Young People) 286WH

Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair): Order. marriage and family life; 84% said that their child’s treatment was affected by where they lived; 71% said Mr Sanders: The points about take-up were also that they were concerned about long-term complications; made extremely well by the right hon. Member for 60% said that their children were most worried about Knowsley. Getting in place the support systems for being seen as different, as the hon. Member for Torbay pumps will help those who make decisions about budgets (Mr Sanders) said; and 50% reported that their children locally to ensure that the equipment is there and in play had been bullied at school as a result of suffering from for everybody who is prescribed one. type 1 diabetes. In a sense, the great hope for the future is a pump that My right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley also tests blood sugar, adjusts the dose accordingly and (Mr Howarth) asked me to contribute to the debate communicates, if the patient wishes, with a medical because of its importance to him as an individual. That professional about what is happening to the patient’s made me think about constituents I have seen and the body. When that happens, clinicians will be able to problems that they have had. My hairdresser, who is a gather much more information from diabetics, rather very important person in my life, told me that his niece, than just hearing what they have to say. Of course, Sophia, was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of people will tell their GP, “I’m doing everything you said five. There was no history of diabetes in the family. The I should,” but the reality may be just a little different, so family spent ages completely terrified, wondering what that new information will take things much further the problem with their young daughter was, only to find forward. that she had type 1 diabetes. Her mother, Nicole, tells In conclusion, I have a couple of questions for the me that she came home on the day of diagnosis with a Minister. How much notice does his Department take load of equipment, not knowing what to do or of international comparisons regarding care and research? understanding the consequences. She knew that she had The hon. Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) mentioned to give up her employment, because she could not the fact that take-up here is much lower than in the control the diabetes and did not know the consequences United States. Should that factor be taken into consideration for her daughter. Her husband had to accept the fact when we discuss what are appropriate treatments and that, unlike other married couples, they could not leave what budgets should be? What efforts are being made to their daughter with other people, because those others co-ordinate international research into effective treatments were frightened about knowing how to care for her. and a cure for diabetes? A cure may be a long-term Nicole was concerned about just not knowing how the possibility, but it would be silly if several different family would approach routine family life, celebrations, countries, with several different groups of taxpayers, festivals and even Christmas. funded the same research at the same time. Some international co-ordination would be in everybody’s Nicole told me today that the single thing that was of interest. benefit to her was the recently set up parent group at Once again, I thank the right hon. Member for St. George’s hospital in Tooting. The scales fell from her Knowsley for securing the debate. I look forward to eyes as the clinical paediatric nurse, Richard Todd, told hearing the Minister’s response. her how she could cope with Christmas—all the food and treats of the period—and how she could have Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab) access as a carer to discount cards, which no one had rose— told her about in the past, although her daughter has had type 1 diabetes for seven years. She could also just Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair): Order. I hope to meet other families and mums, and discuss the call the Front-Bench speakers at 3.30 pm. consequences, for them and their family, of their children’s diabetes. If there is anything I would ask the Minister to do, it is to consider the fact that St. George’s will not 3.17 pm carry on the parent support service, because it does not Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): I feel able to keep Mr. Todd’s services. I am sure that can assure you, Mrs Riordan, that I will not speak for there are many demands on the hospital, but that that long. parent group—just from one parent’s perspective—had an enormous impact. I want to highlight the impact that diabetes, like all chronic conditions, has on not only the individual, but The other time when a problem begins to arise in a their family, friends and community. That is particularly family’s life is when children transfer from primary to relevant, given the age at which people are being diagnosed secondary school. While having a pacemaker, or another with type 1 diabetes and the huge increase in the number condition, might affect a child’s school preference place, of children who are diagnosed with it. About 25,000 despite having type 1 diabetes Sophia did not obtain a children in the UK have type 1 diabetes. Some 98.6% of school place in the Minister’s constituency, although children and young people with diabetes have type 1. her mum and dad wanted her to go to school there so The incidence of type 1 diabetes increases by about that they could be close at hand if anything happened 4% each year. The biggest increase is in children under and so that all the burden would not fall on the school. the age of five, among whom there has been a fivefold At the school, in turn, there was a fear about having increase in the past 20 years. Sophia there. Of course, with the transfer to secondary When children are diagnosed with diabetes, it has a school the issue of puberty comes into play, with its profound effect on their families. The parent group, impact on the treatment of type 1 diabetes, and the need Children with Diabetes, did a survey of parents, in to understand whether mood changes result from the which 85% said that their household income had gone illness or the normal changes that any teenager goes down; 83% said that they had problems with their through. 287WH Diabetes (Young People)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Diabetes (Young People) 288WH

[Siobhain McDonagh] hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) said earlier, is a matter of great concern. It is Having a child with type 1 diabetes can also have a important that more attention be paid to helping GPs, financial impact. I know from other families who have pharmacists, other health practitioners and teachers to been to see me that that can involve simple things such identify type 1 diabetes in children and young people. as school uniforms. One mum who came to see me As with many long-term conditions, early identification bought the uniform for her daughter who was going to is the key, because the later the diagnosis of diabetes, secondary school, only for her to be diagnosed with the the greater the impact. condition over the summer holidays; in that period she lost two or three dress sizes. Apart from the sheer fear My right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley that that must have created, the financial impact for a asked the Minister in an Adjournment debate on diabetes single mum on benefit is huge. There are implications last week to introduce protocols for GPs on dealing for all the things that we would want to happen: getting with certain symptoms. That would ensure that GPs mums back into work; flexible working; the need to were better equipped to diagnose diabetes. The Minister work close to home; and the need for the wider family said then that he would consider the point and would to understand things. I am sure that that is only a small have more to say on it during today’s debate. I hope that and perhaps secondary consideration, but in the treatment we shall hear his answer. of this chronic disorder, diagnosed in children so young, As we have heard, the Government’s NHS White it has a huge impact for the wider family. The soft Paper proposes to give GPs the power to commission services of parent groups, which might be seen as less services instead of primary care trusts, which will be important in times of financial restraint, are crucial in abolished. I have raised on a number of occasions enabling parents to understand the difficulties and problems, recently the fact that there is great concern that many and in preventing some of the problems that other GPs do not have the depth of knowledge required to families have probably been through. commission specialist services for conditions such as diabetes. GPs may not have the skills, experience or 3.23 pm desire to assess whole-population health care needs, to Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): It manage the market, to negotiate contracts and to monitor is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, performance. That is becoming a key point of concern, Mrs Riordan, for the first time, or certainly the first because GPs did not necessarily come into medicine to time in my experience. I congratulate my right hon. do those things. Indeed, I understand that the Royal Friend the Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) on College of General Practitioners is urging the Secretary securing the debate. of State for Health to put back his plans for GP commissioning. The college’s report on the Government’s We have heard a number of telling statistics about consultation has unearthed “major concerns”. That is diabetes. As has been said, of the young people and in line with the responses from medical charities such as children who have diabetes in the UK, about 98.6%—a very Rethink and campaigns such as the Muscular Dystrophy large proportion—have type 1 diabetes. It is estimated—and Campaign, which also have concerns that GPs lack the it is a pity that we have to talk of estimates, and do not skills and experience for commissioning across such a really know the true figures—that type 1 diabetes affects range of conditions. more than 25,000 children and young people. As we have heard—there are some very useful definitions—it There are also concerns that in taking on such a wide is a chronic condition, which can be life-threatening, role, GPs’ primary role of making diagnoses and providing and which occurs when the body’s immune system patients with all the information and support that they attacks insulin production cells in the pancreas. It is need could be affected. Some of the statistics are already usually diagnosed in childhood, but as with most other becoming a cause for concern. Surveys by Diabetes UK conditions children are often kept waiting for a diagnosis. have found that 20% of young people feel that they People must live with and manage the condition for the rarely, if at all, discuss their goals for their diabetes care rest of their lives. Even when it is managed through during check-ups. Further, only 26% have attended a regular injections, type 1 diabetes can bring long-term course to help them learn about managing their diabetes. complications, such as heart disease, stroke or blindness, The essence of managing a long-term condition is as my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley recognising that people must become expert patients. If mentioned. they are young, their family members must become expert carers. Will the Minister outline what steps the Claire Perry: On that point, a shocking statistic that I Government will take to make sure that GPs are better was told this morning is that the management of the equipped to diagnose conditions such as type 1 diabetes disease is so sub-optimal that it is estimated that more and to continue, and improve, their support for people than 80% of relevant children have blood sugar levels with the condition? that are too high, despite the best efforts of their parents, the community, hospitals and support groups. There is a clear need for people with diabetes to be That has enormous long-term health and economic given better information about how to manage their consequences. Surely better management of the disease condition. The hon. Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders), at an early stage would save the children, the family and who chairs the all-party group on diabetes, has tabled the taxpayer enormously in the long run. early-day motion 72, which notes that 65% of the 2 million people in the UK with diabetes are not taking Barbara Keeley: Indeed, and we heard earlier that the their medication as prescribed, because two out of three incidence of type 1 diabetes is increasing by about do not understand what those medications are for or 4% each year. The biggest increase is in children under how to take them. We have heard from my hon. Friend five. A fivefold increase in the past 20 years, as my right the Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain 289WH Diabetes (Young People)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Diabetes (Young People) 290WH

McDonagh) what it is like to land at home with a host The report also revealed that two thirds of primary of medications, without having a real idea of what to do school pupils and four fifths of secondary school pupils with them. questioned think that school staff do not have enough training in diabetes. That is not surprising given the Mr Sanders: It is helpful that the hon. Lady has findings of an earlier 2008 survey of primary schools. It raised that point, because it is an important element of found that 42% of schools that had children with diabetes the issue. There are enormous savings to be made by did not have any policy advising staff about the supervision preventing wastage, but we are not just talking about of blood glucose monitoring by the child, 48% did not tablets—there is also medical equipment. Increasingly, have a policy advising staff on how to help carry that people with chronic conditions depend on medical out, 41% did not have a policy advising staff on how to equipment. Being able properly to take and analyse a supervise medication of any sort, and 59% did not have blood sugar reading is a very important aspect of a a policy advising staff on how to give medication. So diabetic’s ability to treat themselves. the load is falling directly back on to the parents, because the schools do not have a policy. Barbara Keeley: Indeed. I understand that the early-day When we consider type 1 diabetes, it is important to motion argues that people with diabetes have a right to look at the people around the child or young person expect a personalised information prescription, so that with the condition and to consider the level of support, they receive clear and consistent information on diabetes, information and training that is needed. The children’s which will enable them to start to understand their charter for diabetes states that discrimination in education condition and treatment options. should end and that children with diabetes should be Will the Minister outline what action the Government treated with respect. I hope that the Minister agrees plan to take to ensure that the NHS at a local level with that sentiment. provides diabetes care and support in line with the As I say, one of the major concerns among diabetes standards set out in the EDM? The Minister will know charities and groups, such as the Juvenile Diabetes that I am always concerned to ensure that we consider Research Foundation, is the postcode lottery that they carers’ issues in the House, and my hon. Friend the feel exists regarding the treatment of type 1 diabetes. Member for Mitcham and Morden has just touched on We have talked a lot in this debate about insulin some of those issues. We should consider the effect that pump therapy, because that is rightly viewed as the long-term conditions, such as type 1 diabetes, have on gold standard of treatment for the condition. Insulin family members and carers. My hon. Friend described pump therapy reduces hypoglycaemia and long-term it as a soft issue, but carers are the backbone of support complications, and it can make life easier. As we have for children and young people in this situation, and heard, the treatment involves a bleeper that delivers there is an impact on them. small amounts of insulin throughout the day. The Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation states: Those pumps are a cost-effective treatment that can “Type 1 diabetes pervades every aspect of a person’s life.” help reduce contact with primary care, reduce hospital Of course, it also affects their family. As we have heard, out-patient and in-patient admissions and, most importantly everyday activities, such as eating and drinking, which for children and young people, deliver a better quality are often difficult enough with children—particularly of life. As we have heard, less than 4% of the population young children—involve much thought and planning with type 1 diabetes use a pump. As right hon. and hon. on the part of carers of children and young people with Members have said, that figure is far below the level of type 1 diabetes. use in Europe, where it is at 15 to 20%, and the United My hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden States, where it is at 35%. In fact, given the number of mentioned the survey carried out by the parent group, children and young people who go on holiday to the Children With Diabetes. As she said, it found that States, it is likely that they will run into pump therapy 83% of parents said that their family life was affected by when they are there. Of course, people also read about a diagnosis of type 1 diabetes—quite understandably—and the therapies available in other countries on the internet. 84% of parents said that the treatment that they received was affected by where they live. That should not be the It is clearly important that insulin pump therapy case; we should not have a postcode lottery. Some becomes available. As we have heard, it can be used by 60% of parents said that their children were most adults and children over 12 and, as my right hon. worried about being seen as different—children are, of Friend the Member for Knowsley mentioned, NICE course, always worried about that—and, most worryingly, guidance also recommends that children under 12 with 50% reported that their children had been bullied as a type 1 diabetes have access to insulin pump therapy if result of having type 1 diabetes. multiple daily injections are considered impractical or inappropriate. The hon. Member for Torbay talked about the stigma associated with treatment by injection. Clearly, bullying The hon. Member for Torbay provided a vivid description in schools can be a result of stigma and perceived of the stigma, bullying and other issues that arise in difference in children. That is of great concern. Diabetes school. For example, he mentioned how hard it is to UK has found that many parents of children with find a clean and private place in which to administer diabetes are forced to give up work, for reasons outlined injections. I have touched on the difficulties of schools in today’s debate. In a recent survey, half of primary not having policies, and teachers not supervising the school pupils with type 1 diabetes and a third of their situation. Clearly, children of almost any age will almost secondary school counterparts reported that their parents always find it impractical in a school setting to administer had to reduce their hours or give up work to help to injections. In those cases, insulin pump therapy will administer insulin injections. always be better for the child or young person. 291WH Diabetes (Young People)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Diabetes (Young People) 292WH

[Barbara Keeley] well, it helps to give a real sense of the difference that can be made to a person’s life—they no longer have to As we have heard, it is worrying that there is considerable be defined by the condition; they can get on with their inequity in insulin pump provision across the country. life. I hope we share that goal as we discuss how to My hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden shape services going forward. talked about the figures released this month by the I pay tribute to Diabetes UK and the Juvenile Diabetes Medical Technology Group, which show that there is a Research Foundation, which, through the speeches of postcode lottery, in terms of access to insulin pumps in hon. Members from all parties, has contributed to the the UK. We can compare the cost of insulin pumps, debate and does much well beyond that. This is a which are £3,000, with the cost of bariatric surgery for welcome opportunity to focus on a condition that does the morbidly obese, which is about £7,000. Both of not get the same headlines as cancer, cardiovascular those treatments have beneficial effects, save the NHS disease or, for that matter, type 2 diabetes. It presents a money and improve the quality of life for the patient. threat not only to children’s health but, as we have Bariatric surgery use has increased tenfold from 2000 to heard in the debate, to their well-being and, in turn, that 2007 but, as we have heard, our levels of prescribing of their families. insulin pumps are only a quarter—or a fifth—of levels of usage in Europe. Given that GPs are to take on a The debate has rightly focused on what we can do to commissioning role, will the Minister state what action improve matters. The right hon. Member for Don Valley the Government plan to take to ensure that insulin (Caroline Flint), who understandably has had to leave pumps become much more readily and evenly available to attend to other business, raised a few points with a across the UK? policy emphasis that were rather churlish, but I understand that they were well meant. I am sure that she and I will I would like to thank the Juvenile Diabetes Research have an opportunity to debate those on another occasion. Foundation, the Eye Health Alliance, Diabetes UK and, of course, the Members’ Library for their excellent Mr George Howarth: I am loth to rise to defend my briefings on the subject, which have helped us all in right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Caroline today’s debate. I started my preparation for the debate Flint), on the grounds that she is more than capable of not really understanding very much about the condition, defending herself, but the key issue that she raised was and particularly how it affects children and young people, not too party political; it was about how young women and I feel that I do understand it now. Given the are viewed and how they respond to the pressures to number of people involved with the issue in every conform to a particular body shape. constituency and the prevalence of the condition, all hon. Members should understand it as well as I hope we will by the end of the debate; the discussion has been Mr Burstow: I will come shortly to the point, which excellent from that point of view. I pay tribute to the was absolutely well made, and certainly line up with the children and young people who are living with this right hon. Lady’s comments on that. As has been condition, and to their parents. I hope that through this mentioned, the Minister for Equalities has done a sterling debate and the questions that we are asking the Minister, job on behalf of the Government to place the issue at we can improve the service and support that they receive the front and centre. She has not resiled from the issue from health and other services in future. and will continue to pursue it as she has done so far. I was more anxious about that concern being aligned with the Government’s direction of travel on GP 3.37 pm commissioning, which I will return to because it was The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr raised, quite fairly, in the debate. Paul Burstow): I congratulate the right hon. Member We have heard today about type 1 diabetes—a complex, for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) on securing the debate lifelong, progressive condition that requires careful long- and, indeed, on taking part in last week’s debate. He has term management to prevent the severe and sometimes brought a sharp focus to an issue that is often not fatal complications that have been described. A 2009 debated—even when we discuss diabetes, it gets rather survey of children with diabetes in England revealed lost in the broader picture. that 23,000 children and young people currently have I have a constituency interest in the matter. Before the type 1 diabetes. There has also been a national diabetes general election, a number of children in my constituency audit, which included a separate report on paediatric who were supported by Diabetes UK wanted to make diabetes that gives us a fair picture of the extent of me aware of what could be done in schools and families childhood diabetes and how well it is being managed. to support them better. There are beacons of hope and Although Britain has one of the highest numbers of places that are doing exceptionally good things that children diagnosed with diabetes in Europe, we have make a huge difference. However, as has been well one of the lowest numbers of children controlling their documented in the debate, there is clearly a lot of work diabetes well, and we have heard what the implications to be done. I have a lot to say in response to the very can be for those children and their families. That is many good points that have been made in the debate. extremely worrying, because poor glucose management It is helpful that the debate is not just grounded in the increases the chance of the child experiencing complications. technicalities of the issue, but grounded in the life I echo the view, expressed by many Members in the experiences of individuals. We have heard such points debate, that that is an area where we can make significant made by the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden and sustained improvements. I want to describe what (Siobhain McDonagh), the right hon. Member for we are trying to do about that. Knowsley and, of course, my hon. Friend the Member The first question is: how can we ensure that more for Torbay (Mr Sanders), who has direct experience of children receive an early and accurate diagnosis of the matter. That is powerful because when it is done diabetes? The challenge for GPs is that type 1 diabetes 293WH Diabetes (Young People)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Diabetes (Young People) 294WH can be difficult to spot. A child might present with the with the King’s Fund the other day, I learned that there vague symptoms of extreme tiredness and weight loss, are only six places in the country where it is judged to be which can be mistaken for other illnesses. Type 1 diabetes working that well. On GP commissioning—several is quite rare, so GPs might not come across many cases Members touched on this point—how can the Minister in their practice. That explains why there have been ensure that that will improve, because our fear is that instances of the sort that have been described today: that major, top-down reorganisation will mean that tragic cases of symptoms being overlooked and children those five or six places will be the only ones in the diagnosed only after becoming seriously ill. country? The National Patient Safety Agency is currently looking at a number of reports of misdiagnosis and delayed Mr Burstow: Had I turned to the next page in my diagnosis and is working with the national clinical brief, I would have reached an answer to that question, director for diabetes to look at what we can do to so I will come back to it in a moment. My final point improve diagnosis rates and reduce emergency admissions. about care is that the latest paediatric diabetes service Clearly, we will have to look at protocols and how they survey suggests that the picture is improving. It is might serve as a tool that can be used, but we need to important to stress that there is movement in the right ensure that the work is properly concluded before we direction, but there are still deficiencies. decide whether that is an appropriate mechanism. On the question of GP commissioning and how we It is true that building professional awareness is key better integrate the commissioning and joining up of to improving diagnosis rates. We need GPs and A and E services, a point that the hon. Lady and others have staff, in particular, to consider diabetes as a possibility missed in much of the commentary on the White Paper when they see children with appropriate symptoms, and is the clear intention for local authorities to hold a new we must ensure that they are equipped with a range of role in assessing population need. That assessment will diagnostic tools to do so. NHS Diabetes, the improvement be critical to the future of the commissioning of health body for diabetes care, is working with various royal and social care and to the new role of local authorities colleges and other bodies to improve professional standards in public health, which is key to early prevention of and ensure that best practice is reflected in their training type 2 diabetes. The notion that there is fragmentation curricula. NHS Diabetes is also working with Diabetes and atomisation is far from the truth. The intention is UK to publish best practice guides on how a child with to ensure that we have that alignment of services, which type 1 diabetes should be cared for. Therefore, material would be much better achieved through the partnership is being generated that will help a wide range of between local authorities and GP consortiums. professionals not only in the NHS, but in education and social services, to recognise the symptoms and understand Mr George Howarth: I recognise the problem to what good care looks like. In addition, the Juvenile which the Minister refers, but Knowsley primary care Diabetes Research Foundation has been placing posters trust and Knowsley council, for example, already have a in GPs’ surgeries, highlighting the signs and symptoms number of integrated posts; the chief executive of the to help people recognise the condition. PCT is also the director of social services. The process Once diagnosed, children need a combination of that the Minister is seeking to create through the reforms high-quality clinical care and wider support to ensure to a large extent already exists in places such as Knowsley, that they manage their diabetes effectively. I concede yet it seems that they will undo what has already been that across the NHS we have a mixed picture, as has created. been well described. That is the picture the Government have inherited, and we are determined to improve it. Mr Burstow: As the hon. Member for Worsley and Children with diabetes often need multiple referrals Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) has already said from to different specialist services, so well integrated the Front Bench, that is not the norm but the exception. multidisciplinary care is crucial to service delivery. We want that to become the norm. The point is that The right hon. Member for Knowsley broke the that has not happened everywhere. We need approaches ground for the building of the centre in Aintree that he that ensure that we design services in ways that involve described, which I understand will bring diabetes clinics all the key players, including clinicians and local authority closer together and make it much easier to access those social services, where appropriate. That is the ambition services. We want to see more such centres of excellence. of the White Paper. I welcome that development but stress, rather as he did, We want to unleash the potential of GPs by aligning that too often the focus is on how many hospitals, them much more closely as commissioners with the doctors and nurses there are. Beds and buildings are not services. I note that the Juvenile Diabetes Research as important as good services, particularly when it Foundation supports the White Paper and sees it as a comes to managing long-term conditions such as diabetes, key way to lever the changes that Members have argued as well co-ordinated and well thought-out services that for in the debate. It sees the reforms as an opportunity are closer to the patient that can respond to their to secure things that are not delivered under the current personal circumstances and fit around their lives will NHS architecture, such as insulin pumps, and I certainly meet their needs better. wish to ensure that that happens.

Barbara Keeley: While preparing for the debate, I Mr Howarth: I apologise for making so many noted that my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley interventions, but I want to make this simple point. One (Mr Howarth) and the hon. Member for Torbay of the consistent themes in this debate has been that the (Mr Sanders) are lucky enough to represent the two weakest link in the system for treating young people parts of the country where integrated health and social with diabetes is the service that GPs provide, particularly care is thought to be working the best. While talking in diagnosing diabetes in the first place. I cannot see the 295WH Diabetes (Young People)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Diabetes (Young People) 296WH

[Mr George Howarth] At present there is a non-mandatory tariff, which was rushed in for April 2010, but it is wholly inadequate logic, from a diabetes point of view, in handing all the because it fails to take into account the complex nature power and control to people who do not understand the of paediatric care, which this debate has articulated. As disease. a result, under the current system, many paediatric diabetes services either continue to be under-resourced—we Mr Burstow: The right hon. Gentleman and the have heard about that today—or are funded through Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation seem to be in other budgets. Hence, they can sometimes be relegated different places. The foundation takes the view that the to a second-class status in the NHS. The new tariff, as condition is best managed through primary care. As I part of a more patient-focused funding model, will help said, we must upskill, ensure that the signs and symptoms to put us on the right track. are better understood, and use the clinical skills of GPs more effectively. Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab): Will the Minister give way? Barbara Keeley: Will the Minister give way? Mr Burstow: I will. The hon. Gentleman has listened Mr Burstow: I will give way in just a moment—I want to the whole debate, and I appreciate the fact that he has to pick up on another point. I am surprised that the done that. hon. Lady keeps going on about GP commissioning, when it was her Government who introduced practice-based Mr Campbell: We have reached the point about money, commissioning. We are building on those reforms, and and I can assure the Minister that the first concern of a see them as an essential way of ensuring that taxpayers’ parent of a child diagnosed with type 1 diabetes is the money is most effectively geared to delivering the best health of the child, not money. My hon. Friend the possible health outcomes for people with diabetes and Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) other conditions. discussed support for families. May I ask what representation the Minister has made to the Department Barbara Keeley: I do not think that Opposition Members for Work and Pensions on disability living allowance, are alone now that the Royal College of General which is available to many families of young people Practitioners has expressed major concerns about GP with type 1 diabetes? commissioning and is pleading with the Health Secretary to put the reforms back. Mr Burstow: I obviously have many conversations I want to raise a point about local authorities and with colleagues in the DWP, but as that is the first coterminosity with PCTs. We have a better coterminosity occasion on which that matter has been raised in this situation—and have struggled to get to it—but I know debate, and as I want to do justice to other speakers, I that some local authorities around Greater Manchester shall move on to ensure that I answer their questions. will be faced with having not one but two, four or five GP consortiums. As I said, health and social care Let us deal with family support more generally. The integration is working in places such as Knowsley and hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden took us through Torbay, where great work has been done to bring things some of the statistics; the impacts on families’ lives are together. The fragmentation is coming out because of truly disturbing. We need to ensure that appropriate the nature of the reorganisation. and tailored support services are in place, including the right support for carers. Mr Burstow: Again, I do not recognise that I am concerned that where peer support services are characterisation, in that coterminosity does not exist in provided, they are not given priority. However, not all many parts of the country under the current model. As peer support services need funding; they need willingness the hon. Lady has rightly said, integrated models of and support to ensure that they carry on. I would care, and collaborative approaches and behaviours are certainly commend peer support as one of the ways in not present in many places. The desire and intent behind which people can cope with self-care and the ongoing the White Paper is to make them the norm. management of the conditions that have been discussed I want to do justice to this debate. We could have a in this debate. debate about the White Paper, and I am sure that at Let me deal briefly with emotional support for children some point the Opposition will choose to do so. If they in particular, and the children’s charter, which has been do that, we would be only too happy to meet them point mentioned several times. My hon. Friend the Member by point, but I want to talk about some of the key for Torbay spoke about the impact of a diagnosis at a developments that will bear down on this problem and young age. Part of that comes back to providing proper really help to transform lives. emotional support in formal settings—schools and other The coalition Government want to make a significant settings. We must ensure better alignment in the way move in respect of their commitment to introducing a that we develop our thinking around public mental much stronger payment system for children’s diabetes health strategies, and we will be saying more about that services, which will help to bring them out of the in a cross-Government strategy on mental health later shadow of other NHS services. As a start to the process, this year. I am sure we will want to pick up, at least in a new mandatory tariff which we plan to introduce in thematic terms, on the public health issues in the White stages from April 2011 will recognise paediatric diabetes Paper that we will publish, also later this year. care as a clear and discrete specialism within the NHS, I very much welcome Diabetes UK’s children’s charter, and will provide a clear funding stream to support such which will help to establish the kind of support that services over the long term. children and young people need to help them cope. 297WH Diabetes (Young People) 15 SEPTEMBER 2010 298WH

Also, a guide has been developed to help commissioners Inter-city Express Programme ensure that children with diabetes receive the emotional and psychological care that they need. In the last four minutes, I want to speak about insulin 4pm pumps. The right hon. Member for Knowsley rightly raised that key issue in the debate and in an article that Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): I asked for the debate he published today. The National Institute for Health today to give voice to the north-east’s campaign to and Clinical Excellence has clearly recommended pump ensure that the inter-city express programme is allowed therapy for children and young people if daily injections to go ahead, due to the economic impact it would have are not working. Frankly, I am disappointed and shamed on the region. It would have profound implications for that many primary care trusts are dragging their feet on the north-east because the investment would be the making pumps available. That should have been sorted biggest in the north-east since Nissan in the 1980s. That out; I should not have to come to this Chamber to is how important it is, not only for the north-east, but explain why that has not been done, given how long the for the rail infrastructure and the UK economy at large. recommendations have been there. It is a pity that Hitachi has already said to me in writing that the the delay was not challenged more in the past, and that preferred site for the factory to manufacture the trains the previous Government did not get around to sorting would be in Newton Aycliffe in my constituency. it out. I expect to see real improvement in this area as a My area’s involvement in the railways goes back to result of the new funding arrangements that have been their beginning. Locomotion No. 1 travelled along the discussed in the debate. railway line a few hundred yards from the potential My hon. Friend the Member for Torbay raised some factory site on its way to Darlington in September 1825 important points about obstacles, and I want to ensure to start the Stockton and Darlington Railway. That is that, through the all-party group on diabetes, we have how long my area has had its historic relationship with further conversations about what we can do to kick the railway. For something like 160 years, train building down those obstacles, and to ensure that the important was a massive industry in south Durham, just a few research on artificial pancreases that is being done in miles away from Newton Aycliffe at Shildon wagon this country is not undermined by the treatment not works, which closed in 1984 with the loss of more than being available because there is not a route through the 2,000 jobs. The inter-city express programme provides pumps. That point has been powerfully made in the us with the opportunity to bring train building home. debate, and I want to ensure that we follow through In 2007, the Department for Transport issued an on it. invitation to tender to transform the UK’s inter-city Research has been touched on in broader terms, and train services and replace the outdated diesel high-speed I want to mention a couple of examples of work that is trains that have provided the service since the 1970s. being done at present. We are looking at how to provide Agility Trains, a joint venture between Hitachi and better psychological support for children with diabetes, John Laing, won that contract. Agility Trains will deliver and how we can improve education and training in state-of-the-art super-express trains based on the highly diabetes for children and families. We are also funding a successful 395 Javelin trains in Kent, which have recently major trial on the effectiveness of insulin infusion treatments won a Passenger Focus independent survey for being versus standard injections. Alongside that, there is a the best trains. Hitachi also manufactures the bullet vibrant third sector investing in research. train in Japan. We have heard about work at Cambridge university If the programme goes ahead, Hitachi will build a to develop an artificial pancreas to reduce the risk of purpose-built factory in my constituency alongside the hypoglycaemia in children and adolescents. The link to second largest industrial estate in the north-east. The telehealth that my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay best way of describing the inter-city express programme referred to is important, and I want to ensure that the is as a service and supply contract to provide new trains message is clearly understood and that we build it into and a dramatic improvement to the inter-city services some of the work that the Department is doing. I am on the east coast main line between London, south about to run out of time, so I will have to write to my Wales and the south-west. The contract was privately hon. Friend about international research. financed and managed on a pay-as-you-go basis, which means that payments are not due until the trains are Hon. Members raised points about schools. I shall delivered in 2015, after the next election. The cost of the elaborate in more detail by writing to all those who have service is spread over 27 years of operation, with payments taken part in the debate, but it is key that schools made on a per train, per day basis. Payments depend understand their responsibilities in respect of well-being upon delivery of a clean, reliable and fully serviceable and safety, and that they provide appropriate support train, thereby ensuring that the interests of the supplier— for children who need to take medication at school. Hitachi—and the passengers are aligned. The Government are determined to improve care for type 1 and type 2 diabetes. This is not something that we The programme will deliver a significant increase in will put on the back burner. We have inherited a legacy seating capacity, a reduction in journey times and a but intend to build on and really improve those services. huge increase in reliability and comfort without need for hugely expensive track upgrades. It will also mean that passengers will be able to travel on trains that do not dump toilet waste on the track. We need to move on from the Austin Allegro era of technology. On 26 February 2010, a written ministerial statement said that Sir Andrew Foster would subject the inter-city express scheme to a value-for-money assessment. On 299WH Inter-city Express Programme15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Inter-city Express Programme 300WH

[Phil Wilson] The inter-city express programme will replace the rolling stock on the east coast main line. As someone 6 July, the Secretary of State for Transport published who uses the east coast main line weekly, I know that the results of that assessment: the rolling stock needs replacing. At present, demand “Sir Andrew suggests that the inter-city express proposition is outstrips supply on the line. With rail travel from the ‘positive and attractive’ in a number of ways. He suggests that the north-east to London costing three times as much as PFI-style funding arrangement is novel and well aligned in terms flying, and as there are no longer flights from Durham of financial incentives. The faster acceleration and longer carriages Tees Valley airport to Heathrow, but only from Newcastle, would have a positive impact on network and passenger capacity, there is an acute problem that needs to be remedied. and the specification has also taken network sustainability and The new carriages with extra passenger capacity will environmental imperatives seriously.” help to resolve the problem. Sir Andrew raised some technical questions about the trains, but the Secretary of State said: The 800 jobs will help to pump much needed expenditure into the local economy through wages. Newton Aycliffe “I see this as a lesser issue”.—[Official Report, 6 July 2010; Vol. 513, c. 10WS.] town centre is going through a period of regeneration, and the boost to the local economy that Hitachi offers Hitachi has been working closely with the Department will help see the local shops boom and breathe new life since July regarding the issues raised by Sir Andrew, into the town. Newton Aycliffe has the skills that Hitachi and I am sure that they can be resolved. It wants requires. The recent global economic downturn has to simplify the bi-modal technology for example, to seen many people with those skills put out of work. The bring down costs. Bearing that in mind, the economic initiative will help to put those idle hands back to work. case for the inter-city express programme ahead is significant. I have said that the initiative will match some of the Not only will the programme bring improved rolling Government’s stated objectives—rebalancing the north-east stock to the railway infrastructure, which is required in economy in favour of the private sector and providing the 21st century if the economy is to grow, it will also work to those who have skills, as well as offering mean so much to the economic growth of the north-east. apprenticeships to our young people who do not have The programme helps fulfil the Government’s stated those skills. The Government want to create 2 million aim of rebalancing the north-east economy in favour of private sector jobs in the next five years, and this private sector growth. Public financial input will not be initiative will help to do that. The programme is private- needed until after the next election, and will be recouped sector led. Hitachi has also committed to using local through the innovative financial formula Hitachi has suppliers first and foremost. If it goes ahead, the investment drawn up. and the presence of Hitachi will provide the north-east with the largest private sector investment since Nissan Some argue that it should be left to the train operators 25 years ago. to acquire the trains they need, but, surely, economy of scale means that this proposal is the cheaper option, The issue has united the north-east in a campaign to and it offers sufficient volume to attract a major ensure that the inter-city express, and Hitachi’s presence manufacturer to the UK. Therefore, it goes some way in Newton Aycliffe, goes ahead, and to put the case for towards meeting the Government’s stated aim of growing the region. The groups that have got together to do that the private sector—something we all want to see—and include: North East chamber of commerce; Durham Hitachi will put in the investment up front. If the county council, with the support of the leaders of the inter-city express programme goes ahead, and I know Conservative and Liberal groups, as well as the controlling that the Minister cannot give an answer today, Hitachi Labour group; the Federation of Small Businesses; the has said that its preferred site is Newton Aycliffe. In a northern TUC and Unite. They have come together to letter to me, it stated that, on a range of criteria, promote the importance of this project to the north-east. including required land size, test track availability, road The Northern Echo is running a “back on track”campaign access, proximity to deep sea ports, local labour availability because this is so important to local people. A petition and flexibility, and ease of business with local and launched by the partners is attracting thousands of regional agencies and authorities, County Durham and signatures. Newton Aycliffe scored highly. That is a tribute to the The Secretary of State for Transport has kindly agreed people of Newton Aycliffe, to local decision makers, to meet a delegation of business people from the north-east and to the north-east’s ability to attract foreign investors, next Tuesday so that we can again make the case for the of which there are 500, about 100 of which are in opportunities that the proposal will provide for the County Durham. north-east. The partnership has produced a report stating However, what benefits will Hitachi bring to the the north-east’s case for the inter-city programme to go region? Some 800 direct jobs; up to 9,000 jobs in the ahead, and I sent a copy to the Minister earlier today. I supply chain, seven out of 10 of which will be in hope that she found it useful. The north-east has learned manufacturing, mainly in the region but also nationally; over the years to stand up for itself, and is saying “We’re and for every £1 of investment there will be £48 return here and we can do the job.” Hitachi, one of the biggest over 20 years. Hitachi will start building a £90 million companies in the world, has faith in the region, and I purpose-built factory next year. Some 200 construction hope that the Government also have faith in it. jobs will be generated, and private sector investment precedes any public sector investment, which will be The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed over a 20-year-plus period. Over two decades, the region (Sir Alan Beith) said: will benefit in net gross value added terms by £660 million, “I welcome Hitachi’s interest in building rolling stock in the and Teesport will also benefit because some components North-East, and I very much hope the project will go ahead—it will be imported from Japan. would bring enormous benefit to our region.” 301WH Inter-city Express Programme15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Inter-city Express Programme 302WH

In a letter to me, the Minister of State, Department for Mrs Villiers: Before the interval for voting, I was Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for congratulating the hon. Member for Sedgefield on his Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk) said: passionate support for the IEP. I thank him for the “I am pleased that Hitachi has announced publicly that it correspondence that he has sent to the Department, intends to establish a new train assembly plant in the UK, should setting out a number of the points that he has raised, the Intercity Express Programme go ahead. We recognise that this and for the report that I received today on the case that would represent a significant boost to the economy in your he has prepared for the IEP project. I am grateful for all constituency. This is to be welcome.” of those. My colleagues at the Department and I will be The Foreign Secretary said in a speech in Tokyo on giving serious consideration to all the points raised in 12 August: the report and in today’s debate. “I am…here to announce the significant new emphasis that the I welcome the fact that the hon. Gentleman, alongside British Foreign Office will give to providing direct support to the a delegation from his constituency and around the UK economy, helping British business secure new opportunities north-east, is due to meet my right hon. Friend the in the emerging economies and putting our diplomatic weight Secretary of State for Transport to put these points to behind British enterprise as well as helping to bring Japanese and other investors to Britain.” him directly. The coalition Government have made it clear that rail has a key part to play in our transport He went on to say: strategy. Although our priority has to be tackling the “We will work alongside British businesses and the rest of deficit that we inherited, the Government fully recognise Government and other Governments around the world to use our the significant economic benefits generated by investment political influence to help to unblock obstacles to commercial in transport infrastructure—a point that has been explicitly success”. acknowledged by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Secretary of State for Transport met the president Nevertheless, we must apply a rigorous cost-benefit of Hitachi, and the Japanese ambassador, and talks analysis to all our planned infrastructure projects, targeting have taken place between our Prime Minister and the investment where it makes the most difference and Prime Minister of Japan because the issue is so important where it will generate the greatest economic benefit. for bilateral relations. That is the background against which we need to I understand that a decision on the programme will assess the future of the IEP. There can be no doubt that be made as part of the comprehensive spending review. the project has encountered a degree of controversy Will the Minister tell me whether the announcement since the previous Government embarked on it over will be part of the statement, or ancillary to it? How are half a decade ago. The objective was, as we have heard, the talks with Hitachi going since the Secretary of State to replace Britain’s fleet of InterCity 125 trains, and to made his written statement in July? How does the invest in capacity and passenger journey improvements Department’s position marry up with the Foreign Secretary’s on the east coast and Great Western lines. The procurement position that everything must be done to attract Japanese process began early in 2007, and two years later, Agility companies to Britain, and to remove any obstacles to Trains was announced as the preferred bidder. An important that? What prospect does the Minister see for the north- component of Agility is Hitachi, the manufacturers of east’s economy if the proposal does not go ahead? the Japanese bullet train. I am not a deficit denier, but one way of solving the As we heard from the hon. Member for Sedgefield, problems of the deficit is to increase the economy by Hitachi simultaneously announced its plans to build the increasing the private sector. The inter-city express new train order in the UK. This summer, the company programme and the Hitachi plan for locating in the announced that its preferred site for a new manufacturing north-east would do just that. When the decision on the facility is Newton Aycliffe in the hon. Gentleman’s inter-city express programme is eventually made, I hope constituency. As he has explained, that town has historic that those who make it know the difference between ties with the railways. As we heard today, Hitachi has slimming and starving, because starving the north-east’s said that it proposes to use the site in County Durham economy is not the answer. to bid for orders abroad, and has aspirations to export I am here today to promote the interests of my British-built trains to Europe. The parallel with the constituents and those of the north-east. There is great successful model used by many Japanese car manufacturers support in the region throughout businesses and parties. is obvious; it is a very positive example of what can be I hope that the Minister will consider these representations achieved. As the hon. Gentleman explained, the facility when her colleagues make the final decision on the has the potential to create hundreds of new jobs, and inter-city express programme, and that they make the right potentially many more in supplier industries. He has decision. I believe she knows that that is to let the put the case articulately and strongly for the economic project go ahead. benefit that will accrue to his constituents and the wider north-east. 4.12 pm Of course, such inward investment would be very welcome and entirely consistent with the Government’s The Minister of State, Department for Transport stated goal of rebalancing the economy and promoting (Mrs Theresa Villiers): I congratulate the hon. Member manufacturing industry. I take on board the strong for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) on securing this debate on points that the hon. Gentleman made about the skills this important issue. base in the north-east, and how appropriate it would be to support a facility of the kind that Hitachi has announced 4.13 pm the intention to build. Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. However, the hon. Gentleman will, I am sure, appreciate that the decision on the IEP needs to focus on objective 4.38 pm and established procurement principles—namely, on On resuming— whether the project provides the right solution for passengers 303WH Inter-city Express Programme15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Inter-city Express Programme 304WH

[Mrs Villiers] Mrs Villiers: My hon. Friend’s intervention is timely, as I am just about to come to that point. As he rightly and the railways; whether it delivers value for money, says, Sir Andrew did make some points about the compared to the alternatives; and whether it is affordable possible alternatives to the current IEP proposition. for the taxpayer. In response to Sir Andrew Foster’s report, my right In its original form, the order would have been the hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport announced single largest procurement of rolling stock ever, and one that the Government would use the period up to the of the biggest private finance initiative transactions in spending review to give further consideration to the British history. During the later part of 2008 and 2009, future of the IEP. In accordance with Sir Andrew’s the capacity of the debt market contracted and the recommendations, the Government are reviewing all previous Government decided that it would be better to the credible options in light of value for money, affordability split the transaction into smaller parts. and their compatibility with the plans for further rail The deteriorating state of the debt market was just electrification. That means careful consideration of how one of the challenges that faced the project. A further the IEP proposal could be reduced in cost, and evaluating issue arose when the previous Administration changed alternative ways of addressing the problem that the IEP their mind on electrification. Having published in 2007 was designed initially to solve—that is, how to address a long-term plan for the railways that had a limited role the problems surrounding the ageing high-speed train for electrification, the Government put out the tender fleet. As my hon. Friend points out, the alternatives for a fleet, with a significant proportion of diesel trains include the possibility of refurbishing and extending as part of the IEP proposal. Two years later, at the the life of the existing InterCity 125 rolling stock. In height of the contractual negotiations, the Government that regard, compliance with disability deadlines will be announced they had changed their views and proposed an important factor to bear in mind in the assessment. to electrify. That meant that the order had to be changed to an electric and bi-mode mix, which led to an increase Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): Is the right in costs. By the time Labour left office in May, £26 million hon. Lady suggesting that the north-east should once had been spent on consultancy and preparation costs, again get second best, while the constituency of the without the contractual close stage even having been hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson) reached. That has caused a degree of concern. is, I think, served by a line with brand new trains? The project was in some difficulty when the previous Secretary of State, the noble Lord Adonis, decided to Mrs Villiers: I am saying that we have to carry out a commission an independent review by Sir Andrew Foster. very careful assessment of what the right outcome is for When it was published in July, the Foster report presented this programme, and what the right way is to address a measured and thoughtful analysis of the relevant the problem of the ageing InterCity 125 fleet. That is issues. As the hon. Gentleman has correctly pointed what the Government are doing at the moment. out, Sir Andrew had some very positive things to say about the IEP.He described the proposition as “positive Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con): One thing was omitted and attractive” in a number of ways. He described the from the original planned routes for the implementation PFI-style funding arrangements as of IEP, and that is the inclusion of the London-Norwich “novel and well-aligned in terms of financial incentives”. line, to the great disappointment of the people who live He concluded that faster acceleration and longer carriages along it. The problem is that the rolling stock is not only would have a positive impact on network and passenger ageing, as is that of the high-speed train fleet, but capacity. He acknowledged that the specification had actually the cast-offs from the main lines to the north-east also taken network sustainability and environmental and north-west. If the routes are to be renegotiated, imperatives seriously. Unfortunately, he also had some I hope that the line will be included, but I have to say concerns about the project. He concluded that the previous that this is a lunatic way to procure trains. We heard Administration had made a number of mistakes on the about the Austin Allegro, famously specified by civil programme. In particular, they did not engage the railway servants. I would not like this to be a similar instance of industry well enough and had sought to micro-manage specification by civil servants that is not suitable for the process. Importantly, the Foster report also highlighted industry. that although the project has always exceeded the Department for Transport’s economic thresholds, its Mrs Villiers: Many parts of the network would like to value for money has seen a decline over time, while its have extra capacity, and I shall take my hon. Friend’s costs have increased. concerns on board as a representation. Regarding additional Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): projects of that sort, it clearly all depends on what Although I acknowledge and am extremely sympathetic proves to be affordable, but we intend to learn lessons to the case made by the hon. Member for Sedgefield for the procurement process from the experience of the (Phil Wilson) on behalf of his constituents and the IEP. north-east, is the Minister considering carefully Sir Andrew As regards reappraisal of the original IEP concept, Foster’s conclusion that he is not convinced that all the Department has listened with great care to the ideas credible alternatives to IEP have been identified? He put forward by Agility on how to improve the value for sets out the case in his report for a short-term IC125 money of its proposition, and I would like to put on refurbishment, which would be both cost-effective and record our sincere thanks to Agility for the diligent and technically feasible. The skills, buildings and infrastructure constructive work that it has done, in contributing to enabling that work to be done already exist in places both the Foster review and the re-evaluation process such as my constituency of Crewe, where Bombardier that followed. I am very aware that the issue is taken can already carry out that work. seriously in Japan. 305WH Inter-city Express Programme15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Inter-city Express Programme 306WH

Phil Wilson: Does the right hon. Lady agree with me In conclusion, I would like to assure the hon. Gentleman that the answer is not to give the existing rolling stock a that the Government will take into account the lick of paint, but to invest in the infrastructure? The representations that we have received from him today, rolling stock has been around since the 1970s, and the and the representations in the report that he has submitted technology that we have brought on board through to us, along with those that he and colleagues have Hitachi is cutting-edge. The trains that it uses are made in the past. The decision on the future of the IEP comparable with the Javelin ones used in Kent, which will be made on the basis of the fullest possible evaluation are some of the best in the country.The kind of technology of all the relevant matters. I am, of course, well aware that Hitachi wants to bring on board is suitable for that the recent period of uncertainty has been a cause people in the north-east of England and elsewhere who for concern to those with an interest in the project, such would benefit from it. as the hon. Gentleman and his constituents, and the Government really appreciate the patience shown by all Mrs Villiers: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that concerned, not least Agility Trains. However, there is a the respective merits of the different options will be complex interaction between the IEP and other key carefully and rigorously considered before a decision is programmes under review as part of the comprehensive made. This entire debate will be a helpful contribution spending review. In light of that inescapable fact, it to the decision-making process. seemed impossible to make a sensible and objective The hon. Gentleman mentioned that the Secretary of decision on the IEP in isolation from the conclusions State for Transport has met the president of Hitachi, as that we have to reach on those other interdependent has the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and projects, and from the overall decisions on the resources Skills. I have discussed the project with the former available for transport infrastructure. Japanese Minister for Transport, and the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my hon. Although the stage that we have reached means that I Friend the Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne), cannot give the hon. Gentleman all the answers on the discussed the matter on a visit to Japan. We are taking programme, as he has kindly acknowledged, the the concerns of the Japanese Government on board in Government are anxious to resolve the matter, and we discussions on the process. Agility’s proposals are due will convey the decision to the House as soon as we can, shortly, and they are likely to include plans to standardise as part of the spending review process in October. I the design of the new trains, as was recently reported in thank the hon. Gentleman again for his contribution, the railway press. I am also advised that Agility expects and I look forward to continuing discussions with him to offer a significant cost-saving, while still meeting the on the subject. As I say, we will report to the House as specification that it was originally asked to meet. We soon as is practical regarding this decision, which is will then be able to complete our assessment of both the crucial not just for the north-east but for the future of IEP and the credible alternatives on an equal footing. the railway network in this country. 307WH 15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Fresh Produce Procurement (Prisons) 308WH

Fresh Produce Procurement (Prisons) and the decision to create the National Offender Management Service were, in my view, equally misconceived. Setting aside the merits of those particular 4.55 pm policies, the statistics contained in the DEFRA document Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con): make interesting, but very depressing, reading, particularly I am really pleased to have this opportunity to highlight coming as I do from a constituency in the garden of an issue of some concern to me and, I hope, to convince England with a sizeable farming community. the Government to put right a couple of misguided Let me quote a handful of product groups from policies introduced by the previous Administration. DEFRA’s statistics. Just 2% of poultry used by the Ministers not only have an opportunity early next year Prison Service comes from British producers. A miserable to take action on at least one of those policies; they also 18% of pork meat is home bred. If we think that is bad, have the opportunity to promote the localism agenda it gets worse. The proportion of orchard fruit, which that is at the very heart of the coalition agreement. includes apples, pears and plums, that the Prison Service Until 2007, prisons were supplied with fresh produce sources from domestic producers is 0%. Not a single by local suppliers, one of which, Brambledown (Kent) apple sourced by the Prison Service comes from domestic Ltd, is based in my constituency of Sittingbourne and producers, and the same goes for soft fruit and bacon, Sheppey. Indeed, Brambledown used to supply a wide which to my mind is scandalous and deeply unpatriotic. range of fruit and vegetables to both the Sheppey No doubt I will be told that foreign produce is prison cluster and a number of other Kent prisons. In cheaper, but I do not accept that argument; cheap is not 2007, the then Government changed their procurement always best. It might be that buying French Golden policy for prisons. They scrapped local supply contracts Delicious apples instead of Braeburn apples from Kent and introduced a national framework contract. That is superficially advantageous. However, when one considers contract was awarded to a company called 3663 First the harm being done to British farmers by this policy for Foodservice, which is part of a multinational group and the impact that transporting fruit and vegetables based in South Africa. long distances in chilled containers has on our carbon footprint, buying local starts to make an awful lot more I would have understood the logic of the previous sense. Government changing their procurement policy if such a move was designed to save taxpayers’ money, but I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate written answers that I have received to questions show (Mr Blunt), the new Prisons Minister, and his colleagues that not to be the case. In the two years prior to the in other Government Departments will pursue a different changeover, the average annual cost to the public purse procurement policy from that of the previous Government, for the provision of fresh produce to prisons was who set a very bad example. How can we expect consumers £8.7 million, whereas in the three years after the changeover to support British farmers if Ministers are not prepared it was just over £9 million. What those figures show is to do so? Let us not forget that it is taxpayers’ money that the only people who appear to have lost out in this that Ministers are spending. I am pretty sure that British deal are the local suppliers who have seen their business taxpayers would much prefer their money to be spent plummet in the past four years. on British food. I urge my hon. Friend to do two things that would To give an idea of the extent of the impact that the make him popular not only with farmers in my constituency Government’s policy had on individual companies, but with the public at large. These days, being popular Brambledown (Kent) Ltd saw its annual income from with anybody is a very rare thing for a politician. First, I the Prison Service drop from £345,000 in 2004 to just should like the Minister to issue a guidance note to his £375 in 2008. I have spoken to a number of prison Department officials instructing them always to purchase governors and they have confirmed what I suspected, domestically produced goods unless doing so would which is that the service and quality of food have not place a disproportionately high burden on the taxpayer. improved under the national procurement regime, and Secondly, I should like my hon. Friend to refuse to prisons have lost their much-valued link with local renew the national framework contract when it comes suppliers. I think that if the Minister were to ask up for renewal next May, and instead revert to a system governors, he would find that many of them would of allowing prisons to enter into contracts with local welcome the opportunity to purchase more of their suppliers. Pursuing such policies would help to promote fresh food locally, because it enhances their position in the coalition Government’s localism strategy, and that their local community. must be worth a brownie point to any Minister. Of course, one advantage of buying from local suppliers is that often much of the produce is grown locally, 5.3 pm which leads me neatly on to another aspect of the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice previous Government’s procurement policy: the (Mr Crispin Blunt): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Government’s lamentable record on supporting British Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Gordon farmers, producers and processors. The Department for Henderson) on securing this important debate, and I Environment, Food and Rural Affairs publishes statistics am grateful to him for providing me with the opportunity that show the proportion of domestically produced to examine our strategy in this area and to see whether food both used by Departments and supplied to hospitals it should change when the contracts come up for renewal and prisons under contracts negotiated by the NHS next May. There is a significant attraction in my hon. supply chain and the National Offender Management Friend’s arguments. Anyone arguing for a politician to Service. Coincidently, the latter was established in 2007, be popular is likely to be on pretty strong ground. He the same year as the food procurement policy for prisons helpfully outlined his arguments to the Ministry of was changed. Or perhaps that is not a coincidence, Justice, which has enabled me to provide a comprehensive because the decision to change the procurement policy answer to him. 309WH Fresh Produce Procurement (Prisons)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Fresh Produce Procurement (Prisons) 310WH

Before I focus in depth on my hon. Friend’s remarks, I could go on with the list of factors that require I should like to respond to the point he raised in a letter consideration, and I have not even begun to touch on to me in September concerning Brambledown (Kent) the environmental footprint of the vehicles that deliver Ltd. He kindly told us in private that we appeared to food. The point is that any contractor appointed to have missed that company off the list of contracted supply food to prisons must meet all of those stringent suppliers, which gave me the opportunity to examine criteria. Typically, smaller suppliers do not have the the position without public embarrassment to the Ministry organisational infrastructure and resilience to meet the if we got our answer wrong. He was correct to say that requirements day in, day out, which results in a higher Brambledown did not appear on the list of contracted proportion of contracts being awarded to larger suppliers. food suppliers. The reason for our response, which did Before moving on, I should also point out that the not mention Brambledown, is that it was not a contracted choice of a supplier that operates nationally as opposed supplier to the National Offender Management Service, to just locally does not mean that the produce is not but it continued to supply the Sheppey cluster of prisons sourced locally. That is an issue for our supplier—in this under existing local ad hoc arrangements. That continued case it is 3663. National operators draw heavily on until an electronic ordering system was introduced in domestically produced food and will obviously use it 2007-08, which brought the transitional arrangements when it makes commercial sense to do so. It is also not to an end. the case that our arrangements cause unnecessary mileage Contracted suppliers are those who are awarded contracts in delivery. National operators often have regional depots to provide goods to prisons following a fairly contested and use them to keep their mileage and costs to a tender process, which ensures that they meet minimum minimum. Because those depots can carry the full range criteria and are capable of meeting the Department’s of products required by a prison, they are able to send requirements. The response listed 18 fresh produce suppliers just one vehicle to that prison, whereas several vehicles who were contracted to supply prison sites. would be used by a number of locally based suppliers to Despite the charm and skills with which my hon. fulfil the same overall requirement. Friend made his case, there is a strong argument for the I will now turn to the specifics of the current food existing method of supply. Food supply contracts that supply arrangements serving prisons. The Department are awarded by the Ministry of Justice, particularly uses two contractors to fulfil its requirement for food. those for prisons, are not just a straightforward matter The first of these, 3663 First for Foodservice, provides of whether the supplier operates on a national or local groceries, fresh produce, chilled and frozen food. The basis. There are many key factors in deciding the best other supplier, Hovis, provides fresh bread and morning approach and I should like to share a few of them with goods. Contracts with those suppliers have operated the Chamber. since 2007 and they offer 1,500 products for prisons to Operational concerns are very much at the forefront create meals with. of our decision making. It is worth remembering that The delivery of products is only the beginning of the discontent about the quality of food, changes to menus, meals service. The 128 public sector prisons in England and failure to deliver what was previously promised and Wales employ about 1,050 catering staff and 3,500 have been known to be the catalyst for serious disturbances. prisoners to prepare the food for more than 75,000 As well as being a key issue in control, food demonstrably prisoners each day of the year, which amounts to more contributes to prisoners’ overall well-being. A high than 82 million meals a year, all served at predetermined proportion of prisoners are from socially excluded sections times through 900 service points. That service is particularly of the community, with lifestyles that are more likely to challenging, given the tight financial constraints that put them at risk of ill health than the rest of the prison kitchens must operate under. population. Many have never registered with a doctor or a dentist, have drug habits and/or mental illness and Prisoners are provided with three meals a day, choosing live chaotic lives without a stable home. Prison gives an from a multi-choice, pre-select menu system that is opportunity to improve the health and lifestyle of prisoners compiled to cover a minimum of four weeks. That menu to the benefit of all, and diet is a major component of a format takes account of seasonal variations and prisoners’ healthy lifestyle. preferences, and it is capable of meeting differing dietary Prisons aim to provide food that is nutritious, well requirements, such as vegetarian, vegan and religious prepared and served, reasonably varied and sufficient in meals. quantity and that also meets a range of religious and Prison governors bear the ultimate responsibility for cultural needs. Inadequate portion sizes, lack of variety prisoners’ diets. They are required to approve food as and poorly cooked food can contribute to serious being fit for service to prisoners and to approve local complaints and dissention. Providing prisoners with the food budgets. The prison kitchens are run by catering opportunity to choose a healthy, nutritionally balanced managers, who are responsible for implementation of diet, with enough knowledge to make informed choices, standards, training of staff and control of the food is important because prisoners can be in custody for budget. long periods and are largely dependent on prison food. Then there are the commercial and supply chain Gordon Henderson: I hear everything that my hon. considerations. In the 2009-10 financial year, the Friend has said and it is quite logical. He says that it is Department spent around £60 million on food for prisoners. the governors’ responsibility to ensure that inmates Although that is a big sum in itself, it amounts to an receive proper food. However, why is it that the governors average cost of just £2.22 per prisoner per day for all themselves would prefer to revert to using local suppliers? food and beverages. Given that contaminated food can have disastrous consequences among a closed prison Mr Blunt: I heard what my hon. Friend said about population, those costs have been achieved against a that issue. I confess that, in the visits to 20 or so prisons background of tight regulation and control. that I have already made, I have not discussed the issue 311WH Fresh Produce Procurement (Prisons)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Fresh Produce Procurement (Prisons) 312WH

[Mr Blunt] The food suppliers comply with central specifications, to ensure that all food that is delivered is of good of food supply with governors. Food supply has not quality, safe and free from any contamination. Products been raised with me directly as an issue of concern for are tested, where appropriate, to ensure that quality and the governors. Following this debate, however, I will quantity standards are met. make my own inquiries on my future visits to prisons as Reliable management information gives prisons the to whether there is an issue about food supply. I am assurance of safety, traceability, provenance and quality looking at all the services that are provided in prison, to that they need for the prison regime to operate with see whether nationally provided services are better than confidence. Central to that relationship between prisons locally provided services or not. and suppliers is the confidence that the suppliers can provide consistency. An undersize apple handed out at I will quite happily share my prejudice that I would the servery will create issues of order and control, so we prefer it if things were locally managed and locally use suppliers that are sensitive to that need and that use resourced. As far as I am concerned, there needs to be a their sourcing ability to maintain consistency from their pretty high test to move to a nationally provided system. supply base. As my hon. Friend will have gathered from the tenor of my remarks, on the basis of what I have seen so far the I apologise to my hon. Friend, who is a representative argument that I am making is that I actually think of the garden of England, that I used the example of an the national food service supply chain that we have at apple just now. [Laughter.] the moment is meeting that test. However, as I get Gordon Henderson: Will my hon. Friend say whether to the end of my remarks I may give him a little glimmer he feels that a Braeburn apple from Upchurch in my of hope. constituency will upset prisoners more than a French Golden Delicious apple? More than 20,000 items of food are ordered each week across all temperature ranges. That means that the Mr Blunt: Happily, the effect of this existing contract total cost of the delivery of food per day tops £230,000. is that that is not a matter for me; it is a matter for our To put that into perspective, it is equivalent to visiting a supplier, which is 3663. It is its responsibility to procure cash and carry warehouse to empty the shelves each apples for us. I do not know the details of its apple day. Even if such visits were practical, there could be no procurement contract and I am delighted that I do not guarantee of the consistency or the completeness that have to know them. As I say, that is a matter for 3663. the prison environment demands. It is very proper for my hon. Friend to pursue that point with 3663 on behalf of his local orchards—to The supply chain infrastructure to support this volume ask, “Why not? Why are these local orchards unable to of food is significant and yet it also manages to deal compete in that way?” Like him, I have a prejudice in with a wide variety of prison locations. Those locations favour of domestically produced food and as long as range from Victorian prisons, which have small entry the interests of the taxpayer are protected, of course we gates, low arches and limited turning space, to prisons should be buying British. in city centres and prisons in rural areas, which are Both suppliers—3663 and Hovis—are large national accessed by small country lanes that vehicles have to organisations. That is appropriate to the needs of the negotiate. Few prison buildings are conducive to the Ministry of Justice in terms of volume, spend and delivery of the volume of food that is required and yet complexity. An arrangement such as the existing one deliveries must be made each day, without fail, to ensure exploits the capabilities of large suppliers in terms of the continued running of the prison. volume leverage, sourcing capability and relationships As I mentioned previously, food deliveries are made with brand manufacturers. It provides more product from a number of regional supplier depots. The deliveries choice, given that large suppliers have access to wider are consolidated as far as possible, given the constraints product ranges and have a strong capability in procuring that I have just outlined, so that the number of gate from specialist subcontractors, hopefully including suppliers openings and associated security risks are minimised. of Braeburn apples. Each delivery can take up to two hours to complete, There are some other factors to consider in the type depending on the security and regime of the prison. For of supplier tiering that is being promulgated. The EU that reason, deliveries are centrally co-ordinated to an procurement directives preclude the Ministry of Justice exacting timetable. That maximises the efficiency of from negotiating with suppliers on prices, but the main deliveries and minimises their impact on the prison contractors can negotiate with subcontractors on prices operation. and pass on the benefits. In addition, small and medium- sized enterprises are spared the costs of having to Hovis and 3663 have introduced consistent working conform to onerous public procurement processes and practices in their depots for their contracts with us. the costs of having to interface with Government That means that each depot is easily able to support e-procurement systems, because the main contractor other regions in the event of a supply chain interruption. does it for them. The two suppliers that are in place have been rigorously Furthermore, the supply chain risks rest with the tested through open and fair competition, to ensure main contractor, which allows prison caterers and governors that they are capable of managing deliveries into prisons to focus on the day-to-day operation of their prisons. and can support those deliveries with robust contract The unit prices currently paid by each prison reflect management. There is little as challenging in this field that. Consequently, they are homogeneous and fully as procuring food for the 82 million meals that are inclusive of all risks. Unit prices also cover charges for served in prison each year, given the limited facilities keeping vehicles waiting and they do not vary according offered by prison kitchens and the tight financial constraints to the actual cost of delivery or indeed the number of that they have to operate under. deliveries. 313WH Fresh Produce Procurement (Prisons)15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Fresh Produce Procurement (Prisons) 314WH

Any attempt to base prices on local circumstances to reducing its impact on the environment by continuously would introduce complications into budget allocation. improving the environmental performance of its operations In other words, prisons that could benefit from low and estate. For example, 3663 delivers virgin cooking oil delivery charges would have to release part of their to prisons. After use, the waste vegetable oil is collected budget to those prisons that would have to pay more by a national oil collection company and sent to a because of their remote location. third-party operator for recycling and conversion into Prices are carefully managed and are determined by biodiesel, which is then returned to the 3663 depots, the price of the raw commodity, the costs of processing where it is used to fuel trucks loaded with supplies for and packaging, transportation and distribution costs, delivery to prisons, thus completing the circle and reducing overheads and an element of profit, which is around distribution costs for the Department. 1%. The cost to serve the contract is spread across the The supply of food is of significant benefit in reducing total range of products, keeping administrative and risk and contributing to the overall objectives of the management costs to a minimum. The cost to provide Ministry of Justice. Nevertheless, given the importance meals varies from prison to prison. That is due to the of food in prisons, we will re-examine how it is delivered differences in the prison populations and the choice of and consider every option. If my hon. Friend, who has products ordered, which vary depending on the age, sex listened to my arguments in this debate as I have listened and cultural mix in the prison. to his, can identify further proposals, I invite him to I know that my hon. Friend regards value for money continue this conversation. It need not take place formally as being extremely important. Value for money is tested on the Floor of the House, but I am happy to listen to and secured throughout the life of each contract. Prices any further submissions that he wishes to make. are examined through open-book reviews and by reference The timing of this debate is ideal, given that the to commodity indices. The Ministry of Justice undertakes current generation of contracts are due to expire in monthly product reviews to determine the optimum May 2011 and that planning is already under way. In spend profile for each product area. Each opportunity considering every option, I want not just to look at the to improve on efficiency or to save money, without obvious but to challenge thinking on the issue. For detriment to the quality of the product, is thoroughly example, most of what used to be a large network of explored. farms and market gardens operating in prisons were I am advised that overall this national contract, which closed in the past decade. There is certainly merit in is being maintained in an era of high food price inflation— revisiting the idea in order to make prisons more self- 10.5% in 2009 and 4.1% for the current year so far—will sufficient, lower costs, and get more prisoners working. deliver £5.1 million of cash savings during the period of About 425 prisoners already assemble some 100,000 the contract, between 2007 and 2011. When inflation is breakfast packs every day as part of a supply chain factored in, the real savings to the National Offender developed with our current suppliers. Management Service run to tens of millions of pounds. To conclude, this has been an excellent opportunity However, product price is not the only driver behind to discuss a subject that might seem uninspiring and contracts. Underpinning them all is the need to support that risks being considered simplistically. As I have prisoners and rehabilitate them back into society. When outlined today, it is complex and of great importance, 3663 recently opened a new depot in Kent, it sought so I will be paying close attention to the development of prisoners on release to form part of its new team. policies and procurement strategies in the area. I welcome Subsequently, 11 ex-offenders were employed in depot the attention that my hon. Friend has given it and the operations, benefiting the supply base, the community constructive contribution that he has made with this and the Ministry of Justice. debate. Social sustainability is only one element of the total Question put and agreed to. cost to the Department. A false choice is often posited between value for money or efficiency and sustainability. Unsustainable procurement is not good stewardship of 5.22 pm taxpayers’ money. The Ministry of Justice is committed Sitting adjourned.

39WS Written Ministerial Statements15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 40WS Written Ministerial DEFENCE Statements Ex-Service Personnel in Prison

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence Wednesday 15 September 2010 (Mr Andrew Robathan): My hon. Friend the Under- Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt) and I wish to make the following TREASURY joint statement. On 6 January 2010, the Ministry of Defence and the Savings Accounts and Health in Pregnancy Grant Bill Ministry of Justice—under the previous Administration— announced in a written ministerial statement, Official Report, columns 6-7WS, the findings of an initial study The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark by the Defence Analytical Services and Advice (DASA) Hoban): The Savings Accounts and Health in Pregnancy which estimated that 3% of the prison population in Grant Bill has today been introduced into the House of England and Wales are ex-regular service personnel. Commons. DASA has since revised their estimate to 3.5% to take into account the incompleteness of their service leavers This Bill would end eligibility for child trust funds database which did not include reliable data for those and abolish the health in pregnancy grant from January who had left the services prior to 1979 (Navy), 1973 2011, and repeal the Saving Gateway Accounts Act 2009. (Army) and 1969 (RAF). The Government announced on 24 May that they would reduce and then stop Government payments to DASA has also determined the demographic and child trust funds. The Child Trust Funds (Amendment service variables of veterans in prison. They are No. 3) Regulations, made on 22 July, have already predominantly male (99.6%), British nationals (96.7%)), reduced Government payments. The Government also ex-Army (77%) other rank (92%), with 50% being announced at the Budget on 22 June that the health in aged 45 and over. Only 1% are recorded as officers pregnancy grant would be abolished, and that the and 7% had no rank status attached to their records. introduction of the saving gateway would be cancelled. DASA calculated that for veterans in prison the time between discharge from the armed forces and the start All of these measures will contribute to the reduction of their current sentence ranged from 0 to 41 years. 41% of the UK’s budget deficit. The changes being made to began their current sentence 10 years after leaving the child trust funds, including through this Bill; the abolition services, with only 6% having started their current sentence of the health in pregnancy grant; and the cancellation within a year of being discharged. However, DASA of the saving gateway’s introduction are expected to estimates that for males aged 18 to 54, the proportion of save £370 million in 2010-11, and around £800 million the ex-regular service personnel in prison was 30% less in future years. than the proportion of the general population in the The Government have also published today an initial same age group. assessment of the equality impacts of the measures included in the Bill, and an initial estimate of the The DASA follow-on report on the demographic and impacts of the changes being made to child trust funds service variables of veterans in prison is being placed in upon account providers. Copies of these documents the Library of the House and published in full on their have been deposited in the Libraries of both Houses website: and are available from the Vote Office. http://www.dasa.mod.uk/index.php?pub =VETERANS_IN_PRISON CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT DASA’s report provides a detailed statistical analysis of the demographic variables of veterans in prison. It Horserace Totalisator Board does not explore why veterans come into contact with the criminal justice system. The Ministry of Justice and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Ministry of Defence will consider what further Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (John Penrose): work might usefully be commissioned to understand The Government announced in the Budget on 22 June the reasons behind this. that they would over the next 12 months resolve the future of the Tote in a way that secures value for the Independent Medical Expert Group (Armed Forces taxpayer and which recognises the support the Tote Compensation Scheme) currently provides to the racing industry. In line with that objective, the Government are now preparing to launch an open market process in the late The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence autumn in which they will invite proposals from interested (Mr Andrew Robathan): As a result of Lord Boyce’s parties. This process will be open to all organisations review of the armed forces compensation scheme, published who have an interest in the Tote, and the Government in February 2010, an independent medical expert group expect to be in a position to update the House early in was established. Professor Sir Anthony Newman Taylor the new year. CBE FMedSci has led this group, which comprises The Government will continue to liaise closely with senior licensed consultants drawn from relevant specialties, the board of the Tote and with racing interests as this representatives of ex-service organisations and serving process unfolds. members of the armed forces. 41WS Written Ministerial Statements15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 42WS

The group’s role is to advise on the appropriate levels The Council began with a discussion of energy consumer of compensation for a number of specific injuries, illnesses policy, focusing on the issue of vulnerable consumers. and diseases highlighted in the AFCS review as being There was broad agreement on the need for greater areas requiring further detailed work. The group is transparency of information and on the importance of providing advice on a range of complex issues, including: technology, including the use of smart meters, to allow Genital injury consumers to make better choices. This discussion will Paired injuries form the basis of a report benchmarking national policies for discussion at the December Energy Council. Hearing loss and acoustic trauma Non-freezing cold injury The Council continued with a debate on energy infrastructure, including the development of a low-carbon Mental health grid. Member states referred to issues of planning and Brain injury the length of time needed to get certain permissions as Spinal cord injury particular obstacles to infrastructure development. The There are several important topics that the group has debate moved on to financing, with widespread agreement begun that require more detailed analysis, including on that the majority of the energy infrastructure investment mental health issues. As a result of this, I am going to which would be needed across Europe in coming years extend the group in its current form to March 2012. I would need to come from the private sector but that will review the group’s status in 12 months’ time. Therefore there was a role for the EU in facilitating that investment I am renaming the group the “Independent Medical and providing finance in exceptional circumstances. I Expert Group”. noted the importance of regional projects, such as the North sea offshore grid. The Commission confirmed that it intended to produce a communication on Ofsted Report (Armed Forces Initial Training) infrastructure in November, focusing on barriers to investment and key priorities for the next two decades. The Energy Commissioner then presented the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence Commission’s initial position on the EU’s response to (Mr Andrew Robathan): Today Ofsted publishes its report the Gulf of Mexico oil spill. He emphasised the importance on welfare and duty of care in armed forces initial of minimising the risks of a similar incident in the EU training, copies of which I have placed in the Library of by ensuring the highest standards of safety across Europe. the House. Over the course of a year, Ofsted inspected He noted that the EU already had a framework of 10 initial training establishments, meeting with recruits, safety regulations in place and great experience of drilling, trainees and staff to assess the effectiveness of the care particularly in the North sea. and welfare arrangements. The Council ended with a working lunch where Ministers Training to join the front line in the armed forces is discussed energy efficiency. recognised as a challenge for recruits and trainees and the staff who look after them, which is why providing a safe and supportive environment is essential if the training is to be fully effective. I am pleased that Ofsted regards ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS most recruits and trainees as well motivated, thoughtful and confident individuals who feel safe and well supported. Bovine Tuberculosis Ofsted reports that where problems exist, they are not related to the quality of welfare and duty of care support, but to structure, management systems and The Minister of State, Department for Environment, staffing issues and it is these aspects of provision that Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): Bovine TB is are judged as being “inadequate” in two locations. having a devastating effect on many farm businesses These concerns are being addressed and followed up and families. The situation is steadily getting worse—the through the chain of command. number of animals slaughtered each year is unacceptable The impact of operations on the training environment and more farms are affected as the disease spreads is noted by Ofsted in the report and this, combined with across the country. The area of England affected by the current resource climate, means that we must strive bovine TB has grown from isolated pockets in the late to continue our efforts to improve ensuring that the 1980s to cover large areas of the West and South West impact of change is evaluated and the effect on recruits of England. 6.4% of herds in England were under and trainees remains positive. bovine TB restriction at the end of 2009. The figure was 14.3% in the South West. In 2009, over 25,000 cattle were slaughtered due to TB in England. The cost to Government of controlling bovine TB in ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE England was over £63 million in 2009-10 (excluding scientific research). These costs are rising year by year and there is a strong case for early effective action to Informal Energy Council Meeting turn this around. Furthermore this has been raised as a concern by others across Europe and we are under increasing pressure from the European Commission to The Minister of State, Department of Energy and strengthen our controls. Climate Change (Charles Hendry): I represented the Eradicating bovine TB is our long-term goal, but it is United Kingdom at the EU Informal Energy Council in clear that the approach to date has failed. We need to Brussels on 6 to 7 September 2010. take additional measures urgently to stop the disease 43WS Written Ministerial Statements15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 44WS spreading and to start to reverse the rising trend. The I have looked carefully at the potential for using farming industry, veterinary profession and Government badger vaccination. Based on veterinary advice and the need to work in partnership to achieve this. available scientific evidence my assessment is that vaccination There is no single solution to tackling bovine TB—we will not be as effective as culling in quickly lowering the need to use every tool in the toolbox. Cattle measures weight of infection in the badger population. Vaccination will remain the foundation of our bovine TB control does not guarantee that all badgers are fully protected programme but we will not succeed in eliminating the from infection and it would take some time to develop disease in cattle unless we also tackle the disease in immunity within a local population. In addition, the badgers. The science is clear, there is no doubt that fact that the first injectable badger vaccine was only badgers are a reservoir of the disease and transmit licensed in March 2010 means that there is only very bovine TB to cattle. No other country in the world with limited experience of using vaccination in the field and a similar reservoir in wildlife has eradicated TB from no hard evidence on the contribution badger vaccination cattle without stringent wildlife control measures. would make to reducing the disease in cattle. However, vaccination is still likely to reduce disease risk and have That is why the coalition Government have committed, greater disease control benefits than taking no action to as part of a package of measures, to develop affordable tackle bovine TB in badgers. In addition, when used in options for a carefully managed and science-led policy combination with culling, vaccination could help to of badger control in areas with high and persistent mitigate the perturbation effects of culling. levels of bovine TB in cattle. I am today launching a consultation on the Government’s proposed approach The Government’s highest priority are to reduce the to badger control in England. deficit and it is vital that any new policy is affordable. This is why we expect the farming industry to bear the Badger culling has the potential to reduce bovine TB direct costs of badger control. Government will fund in cattle by rapidly reducing the overall number of the licensing operation and monitor the impacts of the infected badgers, thus reducing the rate of transmission policy. of the disease to cattle. The main body of evidence on the impact badger culling has on incidence of bovine I do not approach these issues lightly. No one wants TB in cattle is the randomised badger culling trial to kill badgers, but the scientific evidence and veterinary (RBCT) which took place between 1998 and 2007. The advice clearly suggests that this is the quickest and most results of this major Government-funded trial demonstrate effective way to bring down the weight of infection in that badger culling, done on a sufficient scale, in a the badger population and in turn reduce the rate of widespread, co-ordinated and efficient way, and over transmission of bovine TB to cattle. We also do not a sustained period of time, would reduce the incidence want to see culling for longer than is necessary and we of bovine TB in cattle in high incidence areas. Analysis of intend to review how the policy is working after four the results covering the whole period from the beginning years. of culling to July 2010 show that the beneficial effects of I have met with the Badger trust and separately with culling persist over this time and that the initial detrimental other interested stakeholders to explain the evidence effect seen at the edge of the culled area had disappeared and rationale behind the proposal. All have been offered by 12 to 18 months after culling stopped. the opportunity to discuss the consultation in further The proposal on which I am launching the consultation detail with DEFRA. today is to issue licences under the Protection of Badgers The consultation is available on DEFRA’s website Act 1992 to enable farmers and landowners to cull (www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/consult/tb-control- badgers, at their own expense. Under existing arrangements measures/index.htm) from today and will close on farmers and landowners are already able to apply for 8 December 2010. Copies are also available in the licences to vaccinate badgers. Under the Government’s Libraries of both Houses. A decision on this policy will new proposal, they will be able to use vaccination be made early in 2011, taking account of views provided either on its own or in combination with culling. The during this consultation, and the available scientific and Government’s proposal will empower farmers to take economic evidence. control of reducing the risks of transmission from the wildlife reservoir at the local level. The consultation document also highlights that we Licences would be subject to strict criteria to ensure are planning a number of changes to existing cattle that the badger control measures are carried out effectively, measures to ensure that that they are better targeted on humanely, and with high regard to animal welfare. This the basis of disease risk. Most existing cattle measures will include a requirement that any culling must take will remain firmly in place; in some cases we will be place over a minimum area of 150km2 so we can be looking to tighten controls where we know there is a confident it will have a net beneficial effect. This means higher disease risk; and in some cases we will be looking that we would expect to receive licence applications to reduce burdens on farmers but only where we are from groups of famers and landowners rather than confident that this will not increase disease risk. individuals. Applicants will also need to demonstrate I am today publishing the report of a review of that they have considered taking further steps to minimise pre-movement testing which is available on the DEFRA the potential detrimental effect at the edge of a culling website (www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/diseases/ area. Culling licences will only permit culling by cage- atoz/tb/premovement/index.htm). This has concluded trapping and shooting, and by shooting free-running that the current policy has been successful in reducing badgers, carried out by trained, competent operators bovine TB spread, provided a significant benefit for the with the appropriate licences. We have ruled out gassing taxpayer and a net benefit for the farming industry. The and snaring on the basis that we do not currently have pre-movement testing policy will therefore remain in sufficient evidence to demonstrate that they are humane place, though we plan to look again at the current and effective methods of culling. exemptions to see whether they are still necessary. 45WS Written Ministerial Statements15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 46WS

We will be making some minor changes to TB testing Going forward, we will report to Parliament and the with immediate effect. These include reducing the testing public, both through a Command Paper and by making of new and reformed herds, stopping the testing of best use of the internet. young calves, rationalising post-breakdown testing in A copy of my speech will be placed in the Library low-risk herds where bovine TB is not confirmed and of the House and published on the FCO website rationalising the testing of herds neighbouring a confirmed (www.fco.gov.uk) by 16 September. TB breakdown. These changes will reduce costs to the taxpayer and the burden on famers without increasing disease risk, and will ensure we are not gold-plating EU Court of Justice (Appointment of Lithuanian Judge) legal requirements. Over the next few months I also intend to make changes to TB terminology, strengthen controls on high The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth risk unconfirmed breakdowns, reduce the number of Affairs (Mr William Hague): At a conference of tracing tests and extend the use of gamma interferon representatives of Governments of member states on testing to all confirmed breakdown herds in the two 29 September 2010 the appointment of a Lithuanian yearly testing areas. And I will ensure better support for judge to the Court of Justice is to be considered. TB restricted cattle farmers by enhancing their options The nomination is in respect of: Mr Egidijus Jarašiunas. for selling surplus stock. Further details of these changes Having consulted with the Lord Chancellor and Secretary will be announced in due course. of State for Justice and Attorney-General, the Foreign The coalition Government are committed to dealing Secretary agrees to the appointment. with this terrible disease and reducing its burden on farmers and the taxpayer as quickly as possible. A decision on our approach will be taken following the consultation Sino-British Joint Declaration (Hong Kong) on badger control being launched today. I intend to publish a comprehensive and balanced bovine TB eradication programme early in 2011. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague): The latest report on the implementation of the “Sino-British Joint Declaration on Hong Kong” was published today. Copies have been FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE placed in the Library of the House. A copy of the report is also available on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website (www.fco.gov.uk). The report covers the Britain’s Values in a Networked World period from 1 January to 30 June 2010. I commend the report to the House.

The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague): I wish to make the House aware that I will deliver a speech entitled “Britain’s JUSTICE Values in a Networked World” at the Old Hall and Crypt, Lincoln’s Inn today. This is the third in a series of Interpretation and Translation Services (Justice Sector) four major policy speeches which set out the Government’s active and activist approach to foreign policy. In this speech I will address how this Government The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice will pursue a foreign policy that remains true to our (Mr Crispin Blunt): The Government are proposing to values while promoting Britain’s security and prosperity. make changes to the provision of interpretation and As part of this approach, I will be making three specific translation services across the justice sector. We need to announcements. reduce waste and cut costs but we shall do so in a way First, I am determined to strengthen the FCO’s that safeguards quality. institutional capability on human rights both at home Articles 5 and 6 of the European convention on and overseas, building on the work of previous human rights and fundamental freedoms (ECHR) give Governments. Following the publication of the consolidated the right to interpretation for those who are arrested guidance to intelligence officers and service personnel, and who face criminal court proceedings. In addition, the FCO will be re-issuing its guidance to its own staff we expect the European Union to adopt a directive in on the need to report any alleged incidents of torture or the autumn intended to ensure that the rights enshrined cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment that they encounter in the ECHR are implemented consistently across all in the course of their work. I will make this guidance member states. public. Currently, the non-binding National Agreement on Secondly, I have decided to convene an advisory Arrangements for the Use of Interpreters, Translators group on human rights to include key NGOs, independent and Language Service Professionals in Investigations experts and others. It will meet regularly and have direct and Proceedings within the Criminal Justice System sets access to Ministers. This group will ensure that we will out how criminal justice organisations are expected to benefit from outside advice on the conduct of our source interpreters and translators in England and Wales. policy. The National Agreement gives the National Register of Thirdly, as I explained to the Foreign Affairs Committee Public Service Interpreters (NRPSI) as the first source on 8 September the FCO will strengthen its human for foreign language interpreters and translators and rights reporting and make it available to a wider audience. the Council for the Advancement of Communication 47WS Written Ministerial Statements15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 48WS with Deaf People Directory (now called the National The Home Secretary and I welcome the content of Register of Communication Professionals working with this report which I am today bringing before Parliament. Deaf and Deafblind People (NRCPD)) for British Sign I have placed copies in the House Library. Language and other language services for deaf and deafblind people. The Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 codes of practice C and H also require that Independent Monitoring Commission (24th Report) whenever possible the police should use interpreters from these registers when interviewing suspects. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Members of staff in justice organisations identify Paterson): I have received the 24th report of the Independent interpreters using the registers and then contact them Monitoring Commission (IMC). This report has been directly. Once the assignment is complete, invoices are made under articles 4 and 7 of the International Agreement processed individually.This is an inefficient, labour-intensive that established the Commission. It reports on the process. murder of Bobby Moffett in Belfast on 28 May 2010. I The Ministry of Justice is engaging with the market have considered the content of the report and I am to explore how interpretation and translation can be today laying it before Parliament. delivered more efficiently. The exercise is a “competitive The IMC concludes that: dialogue”, which allows us to explore with potential “The murder was committed by members of the UVF acting providers the best way for them to meet our requirements. as such; Although we are not able to be certain what the result of These members had sanction at central leadership level. The this exercise will be, we are anticipating a “framework fact that there was no subsequent condemnation of the agreement” with a number of preferred suppliers. This killing by the leadership means that the UVF has in effect will set out a template or “call-off” contract. Justice adopted the consequences of the murder; organisations will then easily be able to use the “call-off” There were two main reasons for the murder and the way in contract to meet their specific requirements. The quality which it was committed: to stop Mr Moffett’s perceived of interpretation will be ensured through the terms of flouting of UVF authority, and to send a message to the the contracts. organisation and the community that this authority was not to be challenged; Senior leadership in the UVF could have prevented the INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT murder had it determined to do so”. In May 2007 the UVF issued a statement renouncing violence and committing to a process of transformation DFID’s Programme in Bangladesh from a military to a civilian organisation. This was a major turning point for them. Last year they also took The Secretary of State for International Development the step of decommissioning. (Mr Andrew Mitchell): Today we are publishing by The IMC observes that Command Paper the Government response to the former “the murder does not blind us to the progress the UVF has made International Development Committee’s report on “DFID’s hitherto or of itself mean that the process [of transformation] will Programme in Bangladesh”. The report was published be reversed. But it does call into question the reference in the May on 4 March 2010. 2007 statement to becoming a civilian organisation and shows that when faced with what it saw as a challenge to its standing and The report was positive about DFID’s programme in authority, the organisation reverted to physical force”. Bangladesh. It commends DFID’s work on governance, The IMC goes on to say that extreme poverty and the balance we are striking between “If this murder is to mark the end of the use of physical force it support to service delivery and capacity building. The will require a more profound change of culture and attitude by Minister of State for International Development visited the leadership and the organisation”. Bangladesh 12 to 14 July 2010, reinforcing the UK’s The murder of Mr Moffett was brutal and shocking. commitment to helping Bangladesh reduce poverty and The conclusions of the IMC in respect of the behaviour deal with the impacts of climate change. of the UVF leadership are a challenge to the UVF leadership to renew their determination to deliver fully on their collective commitment to transform their NORTHERN IRELAND organisation.

Arrangements for Handling National Security TRANSPORT (Northern Ireland) Equality Act 2010 The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Paterson): The Government have received and welcomed The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport the second annual report of Lord Carlile of Berriew on (Norman Baker): I have today published guidance notes the operation of arrangements for handling national about the sections of the Equality Act 2010 relating to security matters in Northern Ireland. taxis and private hire vehicles which are coming into The report finds the now established national security force. arrangements free from major structural problems, more The Equality Act 2010 contains new provisions which efficient than analogous arrangements elsewhere, and will, when commenced, tighten the law by placing duties in a more acceptable human rights context than anywhere on taxi and PHV drivers to provide assistance to people comparable. in wheelchairs. Before these duties come into force, we Consistent with his terms of reference, the report was are making provision for those drivers who themselves submitted to both the Home Secretary, and to me. suffer from a condition which makes it difficult to 49WS Written Ministerial Statements15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 50WS provide assistance, to apply for an exemption from today will reassure drivers and licensing authorities that these duties. Drivers will be able to apply for these any existing exemption notices which refer to the Disability exemptions from October. I have today published guidance Discrimination Act 1995 will still be valid once the to local authorities and drivers to this effect so that they Equality Act sections are commenced. can prepare accordingly. The guidance notes have been published on the Also from October, the sections of the Equality Act Department’s website and will be brought to the attention 2010 which oblige taxi and PHV drivers and PHV of all the taxi/licensing authorities and the principal operators to carry guide dogs will be commenced. taxi/PHV organisations. This obligation is already prescribed in the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, so in practice there will be no Copies of the guidance notes have been placed in the change for drivers. However, the guidance I have published Libraries of both Houses. 9P Petitions15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Petitions 10P

Declares that the Petitioners’ beloved daughter, Katie Petition was killed on the A16 last year by a speeding driver; and that the offender received just two years for his crime. Wednesday 15 September 2010 The Petitioners therefore request that the House of PRESENTED PETITION Commons call upon the Government to introduce stiffer Petition presented to the House on Tuesday 14 September sentences for drivers who cause death by dangerous 2010 but not read on the Floor driving. Sentences for Causing Death by Dangerous Driving And the Petitioners remain, etc. The Petition of Christine, Kevin and Victoria Shields and others, [P000861]

1033W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1034W

Mr Djanogly: The Legal Services Commission (LSC) Written Answers to has received 1,050 appeals nationally as of 9 September 2010. The LSC does not hold the information requested Questions broken down by geographical areas. The tender process is ongoing. Not all tender notifications have been made and in some cases the appeals period against the tender Wednesday 15 September 2010 process is still open.

County Courts JUSTICE Contracts Jonathan Lord: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) what consultation he plans to undertake with Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (a) magistrates, (b) district judges and (c) others on what consideration his Department has given in its the implementation of his proposals to abolish county invitation to tender for (a) prison law and (b) family courts boards; [14672] law services in 2010 to ensuring that the technical and (2) what estimate he has made of the total level of professional ability specifications are (i) reasonable and savings that will arise from the abolition of courts proportionate and (ii) compliant with the provisions of boards. [14673] clause 15 (12) of the Public Contracts Regulations 2006. [14553] Mr Djanogly: None. The decision to abolish Courts Boards was taken by the previous Government and Mr Djanogly: In respect of the tender for family announced as part of the March 2010 Budget Statement. services, prior to the tender process the service specifications The coalition Government have decided to proceed were the subject of a formal consultation that opened with the abolition. on 31 October 2008 and closed on 23 January 2009. The Department expects to save approximately £450,000 They were then adjusted in light of comments received. per year from the abolition of the Courts Boards. This The prison law requirements were similarly the subject amount includes remuneration to members, travel and of a formal public consultation that ran from 10 February subsistence payments, recruitment costs and other ad 2009 to 5 May 2009. The 2010 Standard Crime Contract hoc and administration expenses. Specification, which includes the prison law provisions, was then subject to a formal technical consultation with the Law Society in September 2009. Courts: Operating Costs Across all tenders for 2010 contracts, including prison law and family law, applicants have been required to Jonathan Lord: To ask the Secretary of State for complete a pre-qualification questionnaire. This included Justice what the total running costs were of the Surrey sections on technical experience, business conduct and and Sussex Courts Board in each of the last four years. financial conduct. Tenders that failed to satisfy the [14671] Legal Service Commission’s pre-qualification requirements were assessed as unsuccessful. Mr Djanogly: The remuneration, travel and subsistence costs for the Surrey and Sussex Courts Board for the Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice last four years are as follows. what assessment of capacity to carry out work his Department makes in determining the allocation of £ matter starts to companies tendering under the Legal Services Commission contract which commences on 2006-07 12,632 14 October 2010. [14785] 2007-08 12,363 2008-09 9,856 Mr Djanogly: As part of the tender process for 2010 2009-10 9,500 contracts the Legal Services Commission (LSC) (who, as the body that administers the legal aid budget, managed The above do not include additional costs for recruitment, the tender process) applied a ‘capacity test’ across civil HMCS staffing, and administration/ad hoc expenditure. areas of work. The threshold of capacity was specific to These costs could either not be quantified or could be each category of law and limited the number of matter obtained only at disproportionate costs. starts per full time equivalent staff member (FTE) delivering the service. Custodial Treatment: North Wales Further to this upfront safeguard, the LSC is also undertaking a verification exercise whereby they are Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice seeking confirmation from successful applicants that how many (a) men and (b) women received immediate they are in a position to deliver the work they have been custodial sentences from courts in North Wales in the allocated for the start date of the new contract. last five years. [15312] Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many appeals against the tender decisions made in Mr Blunt: The number of males and females sentenced respect of Legal Services Commission (LSC) contracts to immediate custodial sentences by courts in North due to commence on 14 October 2010 in (a) North Wales, 2004 to 2008 are shown in the table. East Wales, (b) Wales and (c) England the LSC is Data for 2009 are planned for publication on 21 October considering. [14786] 2010. 1035W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1036W

Number of males and females sentenced to immediate custodial Fixed Penalties: Shoplifting sentence in North Wales, 2004-081, 2 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Male 1083 1097 1039 1001 1132 if he will bring forward proposals to introduce a fixed Female 85 94 61 76 84 penalty system for offences related to shoplifting in Total 1,168 1,191 1,100 1,077 1,216 order to reduce expenditure on prosecutions. [14784]

1 The figures given in the table relate to persons for whom these Mr Kenneth Clarke: Since 2004 penalty notices for offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is disorder (PNDs) have been available to the police to the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same deal quickly and effectively with low-level, antisocial disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is and nuisance offending, including minor instances of the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most shoplifting. The scheme allows the police to spend more severe. time on frontline duties and provides an alternative to 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have prosecution in appropriate cases. been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by In July 2009 revised operational guidance was issued the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to police forces to restrict the issue of PNDs for retail to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are theft to first-time offenders who are not substance taken into account when those data are used. Court Categorisation mis-users and to cases where the value of goods stolen Crown Courts: area categorisation based on the prosecuting police does not exceed £100. force area (which is not necessarily the area of the sentencing court). The scheme is not designed to tackle more serious If another agency has brought the prosecution, area categorisation is offending, which should be prosecuted at court. based on the criminal justice area of the sentencing court. Magistrates Courts: As part of the rollout of the Libra case management The Government are undertaking a full assessment system in magistrates courts during 2008. a change was made to the of sentencing policy to ensure that it is effective in categorisation by area. Sentences given at courts using the Libra deterring crime, protecting the public, punishing offenders system are categorised according to the criminal justice area of the court while others are categorised in the same way as the Crown and cutting reoffending. We will be considering our Court. By the end of 2008, all magistrates courts were using Libra. approach to all out-of-court disposals as part of this Police forces do not prosecute minor offences (those that are sentenced work. at magistrates courts) outside their areas. Only around 0.01% of sentences at magistrates courts were affected in 2007 and 2008. Legal Aid: Families Source: Justice Statistics - Analytical Services, Ministry of Justice Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many legal practices in (a) Houghton and Sunderland South constituency and (b) Sunderland were awarded contracts to provide family legal aid Departmental Official Hospitality services in the latest period for which figures are available. [14636] Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how much his Department spent on hospitality for Mr Djanogly: The number of legal practices under events hosted by each Minister in his Department in contract to the Legal Services Commission (LSC) to July 2010. [14935] provide family legal aid in (a) Houghton and Sunderland South constituency is three and (b) Sunderland Central Mr Blunt: In July 2010 the Secretary of State for is eight, in the contracted period between April 2010 Justice and Lord Chancellor (Mr Kenneth Clarke) and and October 2010. The LSC is currently in the process Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice of completing the tender for new contracts due to start (Mr Djanogly) hosted events. The costs are as follows: in November 2010.

Date Event Cost (£) Magistrates Courts: Fines

Kenneth Clarke QC Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 5 July 2010 Lunch with the Russian Justice 117.75 what the total amount is of fines issued in magistrates Minister courts in the last three years which remain unpaid. 14 July 2010 Interview and lunch with 12.80 [14579] newspaper journalist 27 July 2010 Justice Committee drinks 26.55 Mr Djanogly: HMCS systems do not currently identify Total 157.10 how many or how much of the value of fines imposed just in magistrates courts within a certain period remain outstanding, this information could be provided only at Jonathan Djanogly disproportionate cost as it would require a manual 7 July 2010 Legal Aid stakeholder meeting 38.20 search of all fine accounts. (small providers) However HMCS systems can identify the total amount 12 July 2010 Legal Aid stakeholder meeting 59.00 imposed within the last three years and the total value (large providers) outstanding. The total value outstanding can relate to 13 July 2010 Legal Aid stakeholder meeting 47.00 fines imposed in any previous period and includes financial (representative bodies) penalties imposed a number of years ago during the Total 144.20 period when fines could not be cancelled (2004-06) and financial penalties which are being paid by instalments. 1037W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1038W

The total amount imposed and balance outstanding The Skills Funding Agency are able to provide includes fines imposed in the magistrates and Crown information on the number of Entry level and Level 1 courts, compensation, costs, victims surcharge and the literacy qualifications achieved by adult prisoners in value of unpaid fixed penalty notices that are transferred public sector prisons in England as recorded on to HMCS for enforcement as a fine. The outstanding Individualised Learner Records. The following table balance has risen through the application of a strict shows the Entry Level and Level 1 achievement data for policy that only allows fines to be written off in certain the last three academic years. circumstances. Entry level and Level 1 Literacy £ Academic year aims achieved1 Total amount Total amount 2006/07 (August 2006 to July 2007) 5,089 imposed outstanding 2007/08 (August 2007 to July 2008) 10,503 2007-08 376,569,882 500,630,569 2008/09 (August 2008 to July 2009) 10,055 2008-09 393,121,639 544,890,624 1 Offenders’ Learning and Skills Service (OLASS) funded delivery in 2009-10 406,670,167 588,475,304 custody for aged 18 and over. Notes: 1. A learning aim is a generic term which includes qualifications, Prison Service: Manpower courses and learning events under a general title. A learning aim is, in the wider FE system, a single element of learning that attracts funding. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2. The Skills Funding Agency have responsibility for planning and what the ratio of prisoners to prison officers is across funding learning and skills delivery for learners in public sector prisons and young offenders’ institutions in England through the the Prison Service. [15232] Offenders’ Learning and Skills Service (OLASS). It excludes private prisons, prisons in Wales and Immigration Removal Centres. Mr Blunt: The ratio of prisoners to prisoner officers 3. The data collected records the number of learning aims enrolled in in all public sector prisons in England and Wales as at a year rather than individual learners. As learners may enrol on more 31 March 2010 is one officer to 3.03 prisoners (1:3.03). than one literacy or numeracy course in any year, and may achieve at one level and progress to the next level, the number of enrolments and The ratio of prison to prisoner officers in all private achievements does not represent individual learners. prisons in England and Wales as at 31 March 2010 is 4. The data includes prisoners who have not been sentenced, who are one officer to 3.78 prisoners (1:3.78) remanded in custody pending trial or sentencing. The Toe by Toe scheme operated by the Shannon Prison officers includes all officer grades within the Trust in prisons makes an important contribution to the public sector and private prisons. Data provided is on development of prisoners’ reading. Through peer-mentors, headcount basis (part timers count as one). they support and encourage emergent readers, enabling them to progress into activity where their literacy skills Prison Service: Training can be accredited. Prisons: Visits Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how much the (a) Prison Service and (b) Probation Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Service have spent on places on the course Delivering how many closed visits there have been in each prison in Effective Penal Policy: Taking a Radical New Approach each of the last three years. [15014] to Short-Term Sentences, organised by CPPS seminars. [15273] Mr Blunt: In 2008-09, the last year for which data are available, 1,543 visitors to prisons were made subject to Mr Blunt: I can confirm that Prison Service spend for a period of closed visits following a visiting ban, 374 the financial year 2010-11 for the cost of staff attending visitors were made subject to a period of closed visits the course ‘Delivering Effective Penal Policy: Taking a instead of a visiting ban, and 1,871 prisoners were Radical New Approach to Short-Term Sentences’, made subject to a period of closed visits. organised by CPPS seminars, is £ 293.75 including VAT. In 2007-08, 1,638 visitors to prisons were made subject The Probation Service data are not routinely collected. to a period of closed visits following a visiting ban, 414 visitors were made subject to a period of closed visits instead of a visiting ban, and 1,939 prisoners were Prisoners: Literacy made subject to a period of closed visits. In 2006-07, 1,684 visitors to prisons were made subject Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State to a period of closed visits following a visiting ban, for Justice how many prisoners learnt to read while 494 visitors were made subject to a period of closed serving their sentences in each of the last five years. visits instead of a visiting ban, and 1,813 prisoners were [15002] made subject to a period of closed visits. Data are collated regionally and monthly; to provide Mr Blunt: Neither the National Offender Management data for each prison would require a manual trawl Service (NOMS) nor the Skills Funding Agency routinely through three years’ of data, which would incur collect this information. However, we are able to provide disproportionate cost. information on the number of Level 1 literacy qualifications These figures have been drawn from administrative achieved. data systems. Although care is taken when processing Gaining a Level 1 literacy qualification demonstrates and analysing the returns, the detail collected is subject that a learner has attained the ‘functional’ level of to the inaccuracies inherent in any large scale recording literacy which people need to get by in life and at work. system. The data are not subject to audit. 1039W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1040W

Rape Mr Swire: I am a member of the Ministerial Committee on the Big Society and I am meeting next month with Mrs Grant: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice the noble Lord, Lord Wei, who advises Government on what plans he has for the funding of (a) rape crisis these matters to discuss how best to engage with Northern centres and (b) sexual assault referral centres in 2011-12. Ireland Executive Ministers on the Big Society agenda. [14776] These issues are largely devolved in Northern Ireland but we would be happy to share ideas and collaborate Mr Blunt: Decisions on funding for 2011-12 will be where that is appropriate. made following the Comprehensive Spending Review. US Investment TV: Licensing 9. Mel Stride: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what recent discussions he has had Justice how many people received a custodial sentence with the US Administration on inward investment in on conviction for non-payment of a TV licence in the Northern Ireland. [14510] last two years. [15386] Mr Swire: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of Mr Blunt: A person cannot be sentenced to imprisonment State discussed inward investment with the US Consul if convicted of an offence under section 363 of the General in Belfast in July and at his meetings with Communications Act 2003. The maximum penalty for Declan Kelly, the US economic envoy to Northern not having a valid TV Licence is a £1,000 fine. The court Ireland. He will discuss these matters again when he may also order the convicted person to pay for TV visits the United States later this month in advance of Licensing’s costs in the proceedings. The means by the US Investment Conference in October. which a person could be sentenced to immediate custody would be if they refused to pay the fine but they would Economic Development be sentenced to custody for the non-payment of the fine and not for TV licence evasion. 12. David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what recent discussions he has had with Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive on economic development in Northern Ireland. [14514] HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Departmental Pay Conor Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what recent discussions he has had Mr MacShane: Toask the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, with Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive on representing the House of Commons Commission, pursuant economic development in Northern Ireland. [14511] to the answer of 6 September 2010, Official Report, column 2W, on departmental manpower, how many Mr Swire: I refer my hon. Friends to the answer I staff employed by the House of Commons Commission gave earlier to the hon. Member for Tamworth (Christopher are paid an annual salary of (a) under £25,000, (b) Pincher). between £25,000 and £65,000, (c) between £65,000 and Assembly Constituencies £100,000, (d) more than £100,000 and (e) more than £150,000. [14610] 11. Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State Sir Stuart Bell: As at 30 June 2010, the House of for Northern Ireland what recent discussions he has Commons employed 1,639 full-time equivalent staff of had with ministerial colleagues on the implications for whom 80 were temporary. The number of individuals the number of seats in the Northern Ireland Assembly employed was 1,789. Their annual salaries fall into the of the Government’s policy to create fewer and more following ranges: equal-sized constituencies. [14512]

Number Mr Swire: We have had a range of discussions on this issue. Since Assembly elections are based on parliamentary Under £24,999 889 constituencies, changes in parliamentary electoral £25,000 to £64,999 814 arrangements would have an impact on the Assembly. £65,000 to £99,999 72 But the Government have no intention of dictating the £100,000 to £149,999 13 size of the Assembly, which is in the first instance a More than £150,000 1 matter for the Assembly itself to consider. Once the issue has been considered the Government will bring forward any necessary legislation. Economy NORTHERN IRELAND Big Society 13. Bob Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what his most recent assessment is of 5. Jake Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for the state of the Northern Ireland economy. [14516] Northern Ireland what discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on implementation of the Mr Swire: Economic issues are largely devolved in Government’s big society proposals in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland Executive Ministers [14506] share the view of my right hon. Friend and I that the 1041W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1042W private sector in Northern Ireland needs to grow. Almost Mr Paice: The monetary value in 2009-10 of: 30% of Northern Ireland jobs are public sector jobs (a) Entry Level Stewardship scheme payments was £161,085,554.18; compared to a UK average of around 20%. Our aim is (b) Higher Level Stewardship scheme payments was £69,179,089.99; to seek to rebalance the economy in partnership with and the Executive. (c) the first Uplands Entry Level Stewardship agreements commenced on 1 July 2010, with payments due twice yearly. Therefore, no Departmental Official Hospitality payments have yet been made.

Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern EU Law Ireland how much his Department spent on hospitality for events hosted by each Minister in his Department in Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for July 2010. [14934] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many officials in her Department work (a) full-time and (b) for most Mr Paterson: The total amount spent in July was of their time on the negotiation, implementation or £554.50. administration of EU legislation and consequent policies. [13780] Parades Richard Benyon: A large proportion of DEFRA’s David Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern business takes place in the context of legislation adopted Ireland what discussions he has had with Ministers in in the EU following negotiation with other member the Northern Ireland Executive on proposals for changes states, the European Commission and the European to legislation regulating parades in Northern Ireland; Parliament. Consequently a substantial majority of staff and if he will make a statement. [14515] in the department (who totalled 8,110 full-time equivalents in 2009-10) will be engaged in EU-derived business. The Mr Paterson: This legislation is a matter for the Department does not hold data analysing how much of Executive under the arrangements set out in the each post is EU-related, and it cannot be generated Hillsborough Castle Agreement. It is for the Executive without incurring disproportionate costs. to find a solution for all the people in Northern Ireland. Tyres I will give my formal consent to the Assembly legislation as soon as I receive such a request from the First and deputy First Ministers. But if a local solution cannot be Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for found I will have no alternative but to continue the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether (a) her Parades Commission. Department and (b) its agencies and non-departmental public bodies take into account rolling resistance as a performance criterion when purchasing tyres. [13552]

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Richard Benyon: The Department, its agencies and non-departmental public bodies, do not specifically include Departmental Billing rolling resistance in all considerations for purchasing tyres, relying on maintenance and fleet management Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for suppliers to provide what is consistent with manufacturers Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what proportion recommendations for the vehicle and suitable for the of invoices from suppliers her Department paid within terrain on which the vehicle will be used. 10 days of receipt in July and August 2010. [13313] Examples of where it is taken into account: Richard Benyon: The proportion of correctly presented Environment Agency who has a policy to fit invoices from suppliers paid within 10 days of receipt in environmental (green) tyres across their fleet. They July and August 2010 was as follows: purchase approximately 85% green Michelin tyres which are low rolling resistance. In addition to this, whilst Percentage there may be occasional issues with fitting green tyres July 2010 August 2010 on certain vehicles (e.g. 4x4s vehicles) there are now approximately 75% of all 4x4 tyres that are developed Core DEFRA 97.25 99.85 with green credentials in mind for rolling resistance. Veterinary Medicines Agency 97 98 Natural England’s Pool Car Fleet is managed by a Veterinary Laboratory Agency 92.1 91.6 Fleet management supplier whose, tyre replacement Animal Health 99.8 99.76 policy is to use Michelin Tyres, as this manufacturer Centre for Environment Fisheries 86.5 89.9 produces some of the lowest rolling resistance tyres and Aquaculture Science within its brand. Food and Environment Research 96.9 89.9 Agency Rural Payments Agency 98.65 100 TREASURY Environmental Stewardship Scheme Bereavement Allowance Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the monetary Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Chancellor of the value of payments made under the (a) Entry Level, (b) Exchequer if he will consider the merits of treating Higher Level and (c) Upper Entry Level Stewardship bereavement allowance as non-taxable income; and if schemes was in 2009-10. [15175] he will make a statement. [14615] 1043W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1044W

Mr Gauke: Bereavement allowance is a contributory by individual teams and the figures provided represent benefit, and it is appropriate that where a benefit replaces centrally purchased televisions only. earnings, it is liable to tax. HM Treasury data prior to 2005-06 cannot be provided However, as with all other taxpayers, a person’s tax within the disproportionate costs threshold. liability depends upon their total taxable income from DMO data prior to 2002-03 are not available due to all sources and the income tax allowances to which they the introduction of a new accounting system. are entitled. The rates of income tax are set by Parliament, but someone whose only income is the basic bereavement £000 allowance, for instance, will not pay tax because their Debt Management personal tax allowance would cover this. HM Treasury Office (DMO) All taxes and benefits are kept under review. 2002-03 n/a 0 Charities: Private Education 2003-04 n/a 0 2004-05 n/a 0 Matthew Hancock: To ask the Chancellor of the 2005-06 5 0 Exchequer what estimate he has made of the annual tax 2006-07 7 9 revenue foregone by the Exchequer as a result of the 2007-08 0 3 charitable status of private schools. [15221] 2008-09 2 4 2009-10 0 0 Mr Gauke: No estimate has been made of the annual tax revenue forgone by the Exchequer as a result of the No televisions have been purchased by the Asset charitable status of private schools because HMRC Protection Agency or the Royal Mint Advisory Committee. records do not distinguish amounts repaid to or claimed by charities according to type of charity. Departmental Fines Child Benefit Stewart Hosie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many transport-related fines his Department has Mr Mark Williams: To ask the Chancellor of the settled on behalf of its staff in each year since 2005; and Exchequer what estimate has been made of the number what the cost to the public purse was in each such year. of malicious counterclaims for child benefit in the [13326] latest period for which figures are available; [13452]

Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) d0 Justine Greening: The Treasury does not hold a central not keep statistical information on how many child record of transport-related fines. benefit claims are perceived to be malicious nor does A review of payments to the Government Car and the Department record how many competing claims Despatch Agency since 2005 revealed the following resulted in an existing claimant’s child benefit being information: stopped. HMRC received around 140,000 claims to child benefit Tickets Cost (£) during 2009-10, where another adult was already claiming for the same child or children, and have received around 2004-05 1 47 46,500 such claims in 2010-11 up to and including 2005-06 0 0 August 2010. Reliable information is not available for 2006-07 0 0 2008-09 and earlier years. 2007-08 6 423 2008-09 0 0 Ian Austin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 2009-10 2 120 how many people earning over £37,401 in (a) England, (b) Dudley Borough and (c) Dudley North Departmental Internet constituency receive child benefit. [15129]

Mr Gauke: We estimate that around 312,000 adults in Lisa Nandy: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer England have incomes over £37,401 and also receive for what reasons it was decided not to moderate the child benefit payments in 2009-10. content of contributions to his Department’s Spending Challenge website. [13985] The information for Dudley borough and Dudley North is unavailable. Justine Greening: The Spending Challenge website Departmental Electronic Equipment had a strict moderation policy and a dedicated team kept a close eye on content posted in order to remove Graham Evans: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer the minority of ideas that were inappropriate as soon as how much (a) his Department and (b) its agencies and possible. Content was moderated post-publication as non-departmental public bodies spent on televisions in per industry standards. each year since 1997. [7497] John McDonnell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Justine Greening: The available information requested which (a) Ministers, (b) officials and (c) others represent is shown in the following table. HM Treasury does not his Department on the Spending Review Challenge hold a central record of the purchase of all televisions Group. [15022] 1045W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1046W

Danny Alexander: The civil service members of the Mr Gauke: The chief executive of HM Revenue and Independent Challenge Group do not represent their Customs replied to the right hon. Member on 14 September Departments, but act in an independent capacity to 2010. bring challenge to the spending review process. There is one member of the Independent Challenge Group (ICG) Tax Allowances: Married People from the Department for Communities and Local Government: Andrew Campbell, Acting Director General, Mr Umunna: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Local Government and Regeneration, Communities and whether he plans to bring forward proposals to introduce Local Government. The ICG membership list, including transferable tax allowances for married couples. [14886] departmental affiliations, was made public on 4 August, Mr Gauke: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer I and is published in full on the HM Treasury website: gave the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/spend_icg_members.htm on 9 June 2010, Official Report, column 189W. Food: Prices VAT: Crown Dependencies

Rehman Chishti: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr Sanders: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what the rate of food price inflation (a) was on the if he will bring forward proposals to amend the UK’s latest date for which information is available and (b) is Act of Accession to the European Communities to remove Crown Dependencies’ eligibility for low value forecast to be over the next 12 months. [14093] consignment relief. [14911] Justine Greening: Within the Consumer Prices Index, Mr Gauke: The Government have no plans to bring the annual rate of food inflation was 3.9% in August forward amendments to the UK’s treaty of accession to 2010. the EU in the manner the hon. Member suggests. However, In their June 2010 forecast, the Office for Budget as I told the House in my written answer to a question Responsibility did not publish a separate forecast for from the hon. Member for Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid) on the rate of food price inflation. 13 July 2010, Official Report, column 661W, the Government are actively reviewing the operation of Gift Aid Low Value Consignment Relief. VAT: Hearing Aids James Wharton: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what the average cost of processing a gift aid claim on Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Chancellor of the donations made to charities was in the latest period for Exchequer if he will bring forward proposals to zero which figures are available. [14633] rate privately-purchased hearing aids for value added tax. [14601] Justine Greening: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) does not distinguish the costs of administering Gift Aid Justine Greening [holding answer 13 September 2010]: from other activities in relation to charities and charitable It is not possible to introduce a zero rate of VAT for giving. privately-purchased hearing aids. Agreements with our An estimate of £5 per claim processed was included EU partners prevent us from extending the scope of in the impact assessment on ″Extending Charity Tax existing zero rates, or introducing new ones. Reliefs to Certain Organisations in Europe″ published on 24 March 2010. This figure is the minimum cost as it Welfare Tax Credits reflects only certain costs beyond the payroll cost of staff directly engaged in the repayment process. Mr Love: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many households receive the 50-plus element of HMRC currently estimates that the average cost is working tax credit; and what the average payment of around £8 per claim. that element was in the latest period for which figures are available. [15445] Green Investment Bank Mr Gauke: Approximately 15,000 families were benefiting Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer from the 50-plus element at April 2010. On average which official in his Department has lead policy these families were entitled to receive £4,720. responsibility for proposals relating to the establishment Mr Love: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how of a Green Investment Bank. [13674] many families receive the baby element of child tax credit; and what the average payment of that element Justine Greening: The Department for Business, was in the latest period for which figures are available. Innovation and Skills (BIS) has lead policy responsibility [15446] for proposals relating to the Green Investment Bank, working closely with other Departments. Mr Gauke: The latest information on the number of families benefiting from the Baby Element of Child Tax Members: Correspondence Credits, is available in the HMRC snapshot publication ″Child and Working Tax Credits Statistics April 2010″. Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Chancellor of the This can be found at: Exchequer when he plans to reply to the letter of 29 July http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal-tax-credits/cwtc- 2010 from the right hon. Member for Manchester, apr2010.pdf Gorton with regard to Mr Noman. [15190] The average payment of the Baby Element is not available. 1047W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1048W

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE The Dalai Lama met the previous Prime Minister, on May 23, at Lambeth Palace in his capacity as a religious Afghanistan: Politics and Government leader. They discussed interfaith issues.

David Miliband: To ask the Secretary of State for European Parliament Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with President Karzai on membership of the Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Afghan government’s High Level Peace Council. [14604] and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy is on the adoption of a single seat for the European Parliament. Mr Hague: The appointment of members of the [15721] High Level Peace Council is a matter for the Afghan authorities and I have not discussed individual members Mr Lidington: The Government’s policy is to press with President Karzai. We welcome the recent for the European Parliament to have only one seat, in announcement by President Karzai to set up a High Brussels. Level Peace Council. We look forward to the announcement The Government oppose the dual sitting of the European of the list of members in due course. The formation of Parliament as it is a huge waste of time and resources. the High Peace Council is a significant step to expedite Estimates suggest that having two seats for the European the peace and reconciliation process, building on the Parliament currently costs the British taxpayer £28 million successes of the Consultative Peace Jirga and Kabul per year and also means that 20,000 extra tonnes of Conference and rooted in the Afghan people’s desire carbon dioxide are emitted each year in the process. for peace. The UK continues to support the political process which is needed to bring the conflict in Afghanistan Human Trafficking to an end.

Burma: Elections Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his Department takes to provide assistance to UK citizens Dr Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign who have been trafficked overseas and are prosecuted and Commonwealth Affairs whether officials in the overseas for offences committed under duress. [14893] British Embassy in Burma have had recent discussions with leaders of ethnic minorities in Burma on the Mr Lidington: If a British national is prosecuted forthcoming elections. [15426] overseas for a crime that may have been committed under duress, we would expect their lawyer to address Mr Lidington: Our embassy in Rangoon regularly this at the trial. If, however, these points are not duly meets representatives of ethnic minority groups both considered during the judicial process, the Foreign and inside Burma and on the Thai-Burma border. This Commonwealth Office—in consultation with the law— includes recent meetings with the Karen, Shan, Rohingya, would consider taking up the British national’s concerns Mon and Chin where forthcoming elections were discussed. with the relevant authorities. As a last resort, where Such groups have faced difficulties with the process of there is prima facie evidence of a denial or miscarriage registration, membership listing, candidate nominations, of justice and where we have made representations that severe funding restrictions and in some cases harassment have failed to secure a remedy, we can consider supporting from the regime. Foreign and Commonwealth officials an application for clemency. also recently met a delegation of ethnic representatives in London to discuss forthcoming elections and further Narco-terrorism: Mexico meetings with ethnic leaders are scheduled. Our ambassador in Rangoon repeatedly raises his concern with the regime that forthcoming elections will not be free and fair while Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for ethnic and other opposition parties continue to be Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assistance excluded or face tough restrictions. his Department has given to the government of Mexico to counter narco-terrorism. [14866] Dalai Lama Mr Bellingham: I will reply to my hon. Friend shortly. Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Substantive answer from Henry Bellingham to Mark and Commonwealth Affairs on what dates the Dalai Pritchard: Lama last visited the UK; for how long he stayed; I refer my hon. Friend to the response given by my hon. Friend where he visited; what the purpose of the visit was; in the Minister for the Home Department (Nick Herbert), on what manner and by whom he was received by the 14 September 2010, Official Report, column 964W. Government; what advice the Government gave his representatives in the UK on the visit; and if he will make a statement. [15402] WORK AND PENSIONS Alistair Burt: His Holiness, the Dalai Lama last officially visited the UK, in May 2008. He was invited by Harry Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission Cohen MP, Chairman of the All Party Parliamentary Group for Tibet, the Network of Buddhist Organisations Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Work in the UK, Oxford Blackfriars Hall and the Oxford and Pensions whether all pre-2003 Child Support Agency Buddhist Society, which organised his programme of cases will be transferred to the Child Maintenance and visits in London, Nottingham and Oxford. Enforcement Commission by 2011. [13941] 1049W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1050W

Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement Table 1: Number and percentage of children living in households with Commission is responsible for the child maintenance less than 60% of contemporary median household income for the East system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner of England, Before Housing Costs and After Housing Costs to write to the hon. Member with the information Before Housing Costs After Housing Costs requested and I have seen the response. Number Number Period (million) Percentage (million) Percentage Letter from Stephen Geraghty: 2004-05 to 0.2 15 0.3 25 In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the 2006-07 Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child 2005-06 to 0.2 15 0.3 26 2007-08 Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission. 2006-07 to 0.2 16 0.3 26 2008-09 You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions Notes: whether all pre-2003 Child Support Agency cases will be transferred 1. These statistics are based on the Households Below Average to the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission by Income series, sourced from the Family Resources Survey. 2011. [13941] 2. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to The problems encountered by the Child Support Agency following uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution as these the launch of the Reforms in 2003 resulted in a decision to defer will be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. the bulk transfer of cases from the old (launched in 1993) scheme, 3. The reference period for Households Below Average Income to the current (launched in 2003) child support scheme. In the figures are single financial years. Three survey years have been meantime, cases were only migrated from the old computer combined as regional single year estimates are subject to volatility. system to the new computer system where they had a link with a 4. The income measures used to derive the estimates shown employ the same methodology as the Department for Work and Pensions case on the new system that made this necessary. publication ‘Households Below Average Income’ (HBAI) series, This decision was kept under review and in February 2006 the which uses disposable household income, adjusted (or ‘equivalised’) Government asked Sir David Henshaw to review the entire system for household size and composition, as an income measure as a of child maintenance. His subsequent report led to the Government’s proxy for standard of living. White paper and to the Child Maintenance and Other Payments 5. For the Households Below Average Income series, incomes have Act 2008, which makes provision for a new system of child been equivalised using Organisation for Economic Co-operation and maintenance known as the “future scheme”. Development (OECD) modified equivalisation factors. 6. Numbers of adults and children in low-income households have The Commission continues to develop plans for a future been rounded to the nearest 100,000, while proportions have been scheme that is intended to replace both the existing schemes. As rounded to the nearest percentage point. with all government departments, the Commission is undertaking Source: a review of its plans as part of the current spending review and in Households Below Average Income, DWP line the new government’s priorities. I hope you find this answer helpful.

Children: Tyne and Wear Children: Peterborough

Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work for Work and Pensions how many children were living and Pensions what recent estimate he has made of the in poverty (a) before and (b) after housing costs in number of children (a) in absolute poverty, (b) in Peterborough constituency in each year since 2001; and relative poverty and (c) with combined material if he will make a statement. [14620] deprivation and low income in Washington and Sunderland West constituency. [14578] Maria Miller: Estimates of the number and proportion of children living in poverty are published in the Households Maria Miller: Estimates of the number and proportion Below Average Income (HBAI) series. HBAI uses of children living in poverty are published in the Households household income adjusted (or ‘equivalised’) for household Below Average Income (HBAI) series. HBAI uses size and composition, to provide a proxy for standard household income adjusted (or ‘equivalised’) for household of living. size and composition, to provide a proxy for standard As they are based on survey data, child poverty of living. estimates published in HBAI only allow breakdowns to As they are based on survey data, child poverty Government Office Region and analysis by parliamentary estimates published in HBAI only allow breakdowns to constituency is not possible. However, figures for East Government office region and analysis by parliamentary of England are set out in Table 1. constituency is not possible. However, figures for the Table 1: Number and percentage of children living in households with north-east of England are set out in the following table. less than 60% of contemporary median household income for the East Number and percentage of children living in (a) absolute poverty, (b) of England, Before Housing Costs and After Housing Costs relative poverty and (c) combined material deprivation and low income Before Housing Costs After Housing Costs in the North East of England, before housing costs Number Number Period Number of children (million/percentage) Period (million) Percentage (million) Percentage Combined 2001-02 to 0.2 15 0.3 23 material 2003-04 deprivation Relative Absolute and low 2002-03 to 0.2 15 0.3 23 poverty poverty income 2004-05 2003-04 to 0.2 16 0.3 24 2006-07 to 0.1 (28%) 0.1 (14%) 0.1 (20%) 2005-06 2008-09 1051W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1052W

Notes: DWP non-departmental public bodies (NDPB’s) 1. These statistics are based on the Households Below Average Number Income series, sourced from the Family Resources Survey. August 2010 Payments made Payments made 2. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to information (latest within 30-day beyond 30-day uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution as these available figures) timeframe timeframe will be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. 3. The reference period for Households Below Average Income The Child 2,171 1 figures are single financial years. Three survey years have been Maintenance and combined as regional single year estimates are subject to volatility. Enforcement 4. The income measures used to derive the estimates shown employ Commission the same methodology as the Department for Work and Pensions publication ‘Households Below Average Income’ (HBAI) series, Independent Living 77 2 which uses disposable household income, adjusted (or ‘equivalised’) Fund for household size and composition, as an income measure as a National 145 22 proxy for standard of living. Employment 5. For the Households Below Average Income series, incomes have Savings Trust been equivalised using Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Pensions 28 0 Development (OECD) modified equivalisation factors. Ombudsman/ 6. Numbers of children in low-income households have been Pension Protection rounded to the nearest 100,000, while proportions have been Fund Ombudsman rounded to the nearest percentage point. Pension Protection 185 64 7. These statistics are based on incomes before housing costs. Fund 8. Each of the measures is defined as: Relative poverty: percentage of children living in households with The Pensions 66 1 less than 60% of contemporary median household income. Advisory Service Absolute poverty: percentage of children living in households with The Pensions 273 22 less than 60% of 1998-99 median household income held constant in Regulator real terms. Health and Safety 1,201 11 Low income and material deprivation: percentage of children living Executive in households in material deprivation and with less than 70% of Disability 00 contemporary median household income. Employment Source: Advisory Households Below Average Income, DWP Committee Departmental Billing Disability Living 00 Allowance Advisory Board Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Industrial Injuries 00 and Pensions how many payments to suppliers were Advisory Council made by (a) his Department, (b) its agencies and (c) Social Security —— its non-departmental public bodies (i) within 30 days Advisory of, (ii) over 30 days after, (iii) over 60 days after and (iv) Committee (SSAC)1 over 90 days after the date of invoice in the latest Equality 20251 —— period for which figures are available. [13932] 1 All invoices relating to SSAC and Equality 2025 are included within the DWP return. Chris Grayling: The following information details the Departmental Training volumes of payments to suppliers made in August 2010 by the Department. DWP payment terms are calculated from the receipt of a valid invoice rather than the date Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for of invoice. Work and Pensions how many external training courses were attended by staff of his Department in the last Separate figures detailing payments at over 60 days 12 months; and what the cost to the public purse was of and over 90 days are not collected and to provide this each such course. [13302] information would incur disproportionate cost. DWP Chris Grayling: Information about how many external Number training courses were attended by DWP staff and associated August 2010 Payments made Payments made costs is not held centrally, as a consequence the information information (latest within 30-day beyond 30-day could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Funding available figures) timeframe timeframe for learning and development opportunities is held and Department for Work 58,763 289 managed by individual business areas. and Pensions Employment: East Lothian DWP agencies Number Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for August 2010 Payments made Payments made information (latest within 30-day beyond 30-day Work and Pensions what recent estimate he has made available figures) timeframe timeframe of the number of jobs supported by the Future Jobs Fund in the area most closely corresponding to East The Pensions, 32,750 36 Lothian constituency for which figures are available. Disability and [13540] Carers Service Corporate and 107,74 170 other1 Chris Grayling: The YoungPerson’s Guarantee statistics Jobcentre Plus 15,239 83 were published on 11 August 2010 and are available 1 Includes housing benefit, Welfare and Wellbeing Group, here: Employment Group and European Social Fund. http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=ypg 1053W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1054W

Statistics are available on the Future Jobs Fund which At present, the management information needed to covers the period from October 2009 to May 2010. estimate durations on housing benefit has not been They show that there were 4,460 recorded Future Jobs sufficiently quality assured; and, while information is Fund starts in Scotland. The information requested for collected on the number of claimants in receipt of a East Lothian is not available. passported benefit, which includes income- based jobseeker’s allowance, the total number of jobseeker’s allowance Future Jobs Fund: Washington Tyne and Wear claimants receiving housing benefit is not available. Housing benefit case load and average weekly amounts Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work are available at local authority area level and these are and Pensions how many jobs in the (a) public, (b) published on the Department’s website at: private and (c) third sector have been created by http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/hb_ctb/ funding from the Future Jobs Fund in Washington and index.php?page=hbctb_arc Sunderland West constituency in the last 12 months. [14360] Incapacity Benefit: Medical Examinations Chris Grayling: The YoungPerson’s Guarantee statistics were published on 11 August 2010 and are available here: Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many incapacity benefit claimants http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=ypg were unable to undergo medical examinations in the Statistics are available on the Future Jobs Fund which Aberdeen trial area because they were unfit to travel. covers the period from October 2009 to May 2010. [13499] They show that there were 2,310 recorded Future Jobs Fund starts in the North East to the end of May 2010. Chris Grayling: Neither the Department nor its supplier, The information requested for Washington and Sunderland Atos Healthcare, collate information on the number of West is not available. customers called to assessment that are unfit to travel. Health and Safety Executive However, for the period June 2010 to August 2010, one incapacity benefit customer, who would normally Mr David Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for have been examined at Aberdeen Medical Examination Work and Pensions what plans he has for the future of Centre, was assessed by home visit. A home visit can be the Health and Safety Executive. [13708] arranged by Atos Healthcare when a customer has difficulty travelling to the examination centre, e.g. due Chris Grayling: Our priority is to ensure that health to the availability of public transport or fitness to and safety is regulated fairly and proportionately. That travel. is vital for a strong economy, and for a healthy and productive work force. Incapacity Benefit: Wimbledon This Department’s planning proposals, including in respect of the Health and Safety Executive, will be developed as part of this autumn’s spending review. Stephen Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people in Wimbledon Housing Benefit: Camden constituency claimed incapacity benefit in (a) 2005, (b) 2007 and (c) 2010. [12940] Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people resident in the London Chris Grayling: The information is provided in the borough of Camden have been unemployed for more table—please note that no new claims to incapacity than a year and are claiming housing benefit. [11936] benefit were accepted after 27 October 2008 as it was replaced by employment and support allowance from Steve Webb: The information is not available. this date. There is not yet data available for 2010— November 2009 is the most recent data available. Housing Benefit: Scotland Incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance claimants in Wimbledon parliamentary constituency. John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Total number of claimants Work and Pensions what proportion of claimants of February 2005 1,730 housing benefit in (a) Scotland, (b) Glasgow and (c) Glasgow North West (i) are claimants of jobseeker’s February 2007 1,710 allowance and (ii) have claimed jobseeker’s allowance November 2009 1,390 Notes: for 12 months or more. [15111] 1. Incapacity Benefit was replaced by Employment Support Allowance (ESA) from October 2008. Chris Grayling: The information requested is not 2. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. available. 3. IB/SDA ’Claimants’ include people in receipt of benefit and also those who fail the contributions conditions but receive a National From February 2007, DWP has been collecting more Insurance Credit, i.e. ’credits only cases’. detailed housing benefit and council tax benefit data 4. Constituencies used are for the Westminster Parliament of May electronically from local authorities. Over time this will 2005. improve the accuracy, timeliness and level of detail Source: available in the published statistics, as the information DWP Information Directorate Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study supplied is quality assured. 100 per cent data. 1055W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1056W

Industrial Diseases: Asbestos Means-tested Benefits

Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of Matthew Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for State for Work and Pensions what recent estimate he Work and Pensions if he will estimate the cost to the has made of the number of people who have been paid Exchequer of (a) retaining each universal benefit at compensation by (a) insurance companies and (b) the average rate and (b) adopting means testing for all employers for diseases caused by exposure to asbestos benefits at the average rate in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) each in the workplace; and if he will make a statement. of the next four years. [14396] [14586] Maria Miller: The information that is available is Chris Grayling: The information requested is not provided in the following table. This sets out, for 2010-11 available. and each of the next four years, the forecast expenditure on the main DWP payments that have no means test Jobcentre Plus: Manpower and do not require national insurance contributions to have been made. The estimated cost of adopting means Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State testing for all benefits is not available and could be for Work and Pensions how many Jobcentre Plus staff obtained only at disproportionate cost. are employed on fixed-term contracts; how many of Benefit expenditure forecasts, 2010-11 to 2014-15 them have been granted contract extensions since £ million, nominal terms 22 June 2010; and what the estimated cost is of 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 extending these contracts. [13843] Disability 12,113 12,704 13,305 13,530 13,444 living Chris Grayling: The administration of Jobcentre Plus allowance is a matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Attendance 5,330 5,539 5,759 5,962 6,172 Darra Singh. I have asked him to provide the hon. allowance Member with the information requested. Carer’s 1,645 1,773 1,885 1,995 2,086 Letter from Darra Singh: allowance Christmas 156 156 158 159 161 The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your questions bonus asking how many Jobcentre Plus staff are employed on fixed-term Winter fuel 2,734 2,134 2,117 2,099 2,084 contracts, how many of them have been granted contract extensions payments since 22 June 2010, and what the estimated cost is of extending these contracts. This is something that falls within the responsibilities Over 75 TV 569 591 615 641 681 delegated to me as Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus. licence Notes: The latest externally published staffing numbers are for March 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest million. 2010. This data shows that, at that date, Jobcentre Plus employed 2. Totals may not sum due to rounding. 13,624 full-time equivalents on fixed-term contracts. 3. Figures are for Great Britain, but also include a small amount of The latest internal management information shows that the expenditure for claimants who have moved abroad. fixed-term contracts for 1,211 full-time equivalents were due to Source: end between 22 June 2010 and the end of September 2010. Of June 2010 Budget forecast these 593 had their contracts extended. The majority of these extensions are for 3 months. The estimated cost of these extensions is approximately £3m. However, the Security decision to extend these contracts was made due to higher staff attrition rates, so with less staff in the organisation these extensions Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for were contained within original budget. Work and Pensions how many British standards apply to the installation and maintenance of automatic Jobseeker’s Allowance: Gateshead security gates; and what training is required of people installing them. [13426] Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many lone parents are in receipt of Chris Grayling: The British Standards Institution, jobseeker’s allowance in Gateshead constituency. which is the source of British Standards, has published [13386] six standards which are directly applicable: BS EN 12635 ‘Industrial, commercial and garage doors and Chris Grayling: In June 2010 there were 95 lone gates—Installation and use’ parents claiming jobseeker’s allowance in Gateshead. BS EN 12445 ‘Industrial, commercial and garage doors and The figure has been rounded to the nearest five. gates—Safety in use of power operated doors—Test methods’ BS EN 12453 ‘Industrial, commercial and garage doors and Jobseeker’s Allowance: Wolverhampton gates—Safety in use of power operated doors—Requirements’ BS EN 12604 ‘Industrial, commercial and garage doors and gates—Mechanical aspects—Requirements’ Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for BS EN 13241-1:2003 ‘Industrial, commercial and garage doors Work and Pensions how many people will have been on and gates—Product standard. Part 1: products without fire jobseeker’s allowance for over 12 months by 2013 in resistance or smoke control characteristics’ [13367] Wolverhampton North East constituency. BS EN 12978 ‘Industrial, commercial and garage doors and gates-Safety devices for power operated doors and gates— Chris Grayling: The information is not available. Requirements and test methods’. 1057W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1058W

There is no specific statutory training required for safety law. The main way in which HSE monitors individuals installing automatic security gates. However, compliance with the law is through proactive visits to the Health and Safety at Work Act requires employers workplaces by inspectors and other front-line staff. If and the self-employed to conduct their undertakings in an inspector has concerns about the safety of electrically such a way that persons not in their employment are not powered gates, then they will enquire into the maintenance exposed to risks. This means that the installers must arrangements and seek assurance or demonstration that have the necessary competence to produce a safe final the safety devices are in working order. If inquiries are product and, to do this, they will require an understanding made of installers of such gates, then their knowledge of the relevant standards. of the relevant British Standards would be examined. British standards are available as priced publications Enforcement action, including Prohibition and from the BSI website: Improvement Notices, may be taken where significant http://www.bsigroup.com/ deficiencies are found, even if an injury has not occurred.

Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how the Health and Safety Executive Work and Pensions how many (a) deaths and (b) monitors automatic security gates in the workplace for serious injuries have been caused by the operation of (a) compliance with relevant British Standards and (b) automatic security gates in the workplace in each of the safety of operation. [13427] last five years. [13428]

Chris Grayling: Organisations which install, use or Chris Grayling: HSE’s best estimate is in the following maintain this type of gate have duties under health and table.

Severity 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2010-11 Total

Fatal——— 1—— 2 3 Major injury — 3 — 2 3 3 — 11 Over 3 day injury 1 1 — 1 — 5 — 8 Total14—438222

HSE’s best estimate has been created following the Notes: interrogation of HSE databases using the terms ‘electric 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest ten. Some additional disclosure control has been applied. gates’, ‘powered gate’ and ’power gate operator’. This 2. The number of sanctions applied is the number of individuals approach is used because those notifying the incident where there has been an adverse decision. do not always use the consistent terms in describing the 3. Varied length sanctions are where the JSA claimant has their events that are reported. As a consequence there is no payment temporarily suspended for anything up to 26 weeks. easy way ensuring that all records of a similar nature 4. Fixed length sanctions are where the JSA claimant has their payment temporarily suspended for either two, four or 26 weeks. are accounted for. Similarly, it is not always possible to 5. Entitlement decisions are where the JSA claimant has their entitlement distinguish workplaces or other premises. to JSA ended. 6. Only the most recent sanction for each individual is shown. Source: DWP Information Directorate: JSA Sanctions and Disallowance Decisions Statistics Database Social Security Benefits: Disqualification Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many benefit claimants of each Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Work benefit type received a benefit sanction of more than and Pensions how many claimants of each benefit type one week’s benefit entitlement in 2009-10. [13259] received a benefit sanction in (a) 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11. [13256] Chris Grayling: The information is not available.

Chris Grayling: The information is not available in Social Security Benefits: Medical Examinations the format requested. Information is not available on sanctions in respect of people claiming income support, Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of incapacity benefit, and employment and support allowance. State for Work and Pensions what recent discussions he The available information for jobseeker’s allowance is has had with those responsible for making medical in the table. assessments of eligibility for employment and support Data for 2010-11 are not yet available. allowance for people with (a) Asperger’s syndrome and (b) other parts of the autism spectrum on their Number of individuals claiming jobseeker’s allowance, where a sanction has been applied in Great Britain, April 2009 to March 2010 training in making such assessments; what medical Number experience such assessors are required to have; and if he will make a statement. [14585] All sanctions 379,030 Varied length sanctions 51,510 Chris Grayling: Officials have discussed the training Fixed length sanctions 68,240 of healthcare professionals in relation to Autistic Spectrum Entitlement decisions 259,280 Disorders with Atos Healthcare to ensure that they are 1059W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1060W able to conduct assessments for employment and support Andrew Stunell: We are reviewing the unfair Housing allowance to the required standards. Revenue Account Subsidy system as part of the Spending All Atos healthcare professionals conducting Review. Employment and Support Allowance assessments receive training regarding Autistic Spectrum Disorders. The Council Tax: Tax Rates and Bands training is tailored to individual need but includes provision of information about Autistic Spectrum Disorders Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for contained in evidence-based protocols for mental health Communities and Local Government what estimate his conditions, a face to face ″learning set″ on Asperger’s Department has made of the number of homes in syndrome, a distance learning module on Asperger’s England incorrectly banded in the 2005 council tax syndrome and a DVD on autism. revaluation. [15063] Healthcare professionals are required to have a minimum of three years post-registration experience and this should Robert Neill: No council tax revaluation took place in include broad based medical practice in roles that have 2005. clear relevance to a career in disability assessment medicine. In individual cases, solely at the discretion of the DWP Departmental Cleaning Services Chief Medical Adviser, the requirement that a healthcare professional must have a minimum of three years post- Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for registration experience may be waived. Communities and Local Government how much his Department spent on cleaning in (a) 2006-07, (b) Child Benefit 2007-08, (c) 2008-09 and (d) 2009-10. [15052]

Mr Mark Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Neill: Communities and Local Government Work and Pensions how many counterclaims have been have spent the following on cleaning in its headquarters made for child benefit in each of the last five years; and buildings in London during: (a) 2006-07, (b) 2007-08, how many such claims have led to the other parent’s (c) 2008-09 and (d) 2009-10. child benefit being stopped. [13451] Cost (£) Mr Gauke: I have been asked to reply. 2006-07 594,155 HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) do not keep 2007-08 655,534 statistical information on how many child benefit claims 2008-09 370,386 are perceived to be malicious nor does the Department 2009-10 423,553 record how many competing claims resulted in an existing claimant’s child benefit being stopped. In July 2004, the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister HMRC received around 140,000 claims to child benefit signed a contract with Mitie for contract cleaning services during 2009-10, where another adult was already claiming in Ashdown House and Eland House, London Victoria. for the same child or children, and have received around In May 2010, the Department gave due notice to reduce 46,500 such claims in 2010-11 up to and including the level of contract cleaning in its remaining headquarters August 2010. Reliable information is not available for building, Eland House, achieving ongoing savings of 2008-09 and earlier years. circa £150,000 per year.

Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what declarations Business Improvement Districts of (a) interests, (b) gifts and (c) hospitality were made by special advisers in his Department in (i) 2007-08, (ii) 2008-09 and (iii) 2009-10. [15059] Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many business Robert Neill: In the periods 2007-08 and 2008-09 no (a) improvement districts there were in each of the last declarations of interests, gifts or hospitality were made (b) three years and on the latest date for which information by special advisers in Communities and Local Government is available. [14987] and in 2009-10 there was one declaration of a gift made by special adviser. Robert Neill: The Department does not hold information on numbers of business improvement districts (BIDs) on an annual basis. Departmental Official Hospitality The total number of BIDs as of September 2010 is 92, 15 of which are in their second term. Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much his Department spent on hospitality for events hosted by each Minister in his Council Housing: Finance Department in July 2010. [15144]

Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Neill: Communities and Local Government Communities and Local Government what his policy is spent £80 on the provision of hospitality at a ministerial on the reform of council housing finance. [14969] reception for housebuilders in July 2010. 1061W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1062W

Domestic Violence: Supporting People Programme I have met with EADS recently, at their request, when they offered to deliver a system with reduced functionality Karl McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for by June 2011. We have made it clear that none of these Communities and Local Government how many support plans is under consideration and EADS must deliver units for (a) women and (b) men at risk of domestic the contracted solution by the contracted date(s). violence were provided or part-funded by Supporting The Government are committed to ensuring value for People in (i) 2008-09 and (ii) 2009-10. [15048] money for the taxpayer, improving resilience and stopping the forced regionalisation of the fire service. Andrew Stunell: There were 10,549 Domestic Violence House-Hold Units funded by the Supporting People Fire Services: Finance programme as at 31 March 2009. Information is not broken down between male and female. Data for 2009-10 John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for is not yet available. Communities and Local Government what proportion Information returned by the providers of Supporting of his Department’s in-year budgetary savings for People services show that in 2009-10. 26,361 clients 2010-11 will come from the central Government grant entering services were defined as ’people at risk of to fire and rescue authorities in England; and if he will domestic violence’. 25.927 of these were female (98%), make a statement. [15021] 434 were male (2%). Robert Neill: There has been no reduction to the Karl McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for formula grant allocated to local authorities for 2010-11, Communities and Local Government which local which includes grant payments to fire and rescue authorities authorities have been granted Supporting People funding in England. to support (a) women and (b) men at risk of domestic Fires: Electric Cables violence in (i) 2008-09 and (ii) 2009-10. [15049]

Andrew Stunell: The Supporting People programme Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for grant, which enables local authorities to provide housing Communities and Local Government how many fires in (a) related support services including domestic violence private rented properties in North Swindon constituency (b) provision, is allocated to the 152 top tier authorities. and England and Wales were attributed to faults in However, CLG do not specify what proportion of the electrical installations and products in the most recent Supporting People budget should be allocated to individual 12 month period for which figures are available. [14793] client groups or services. The provision of Supporting People housing related support services, including domestic Robert Neill: Fire incident data are available up to the violence provision for men and women, is a matter for end of March 2010, but only to Fire and Rescue Authority local authorities to determine based on local needs and level, and dwelling tenure details are not collected under priorities. the Fire and Rescue Incident Recording System. Therefore the data in the table are for all dwellings, and for Wiltshire rather than for North Swindon. Fire Services Fires in dwellings attributable to faults in electrical installations and products, April 2009 to March 2010 John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Number Communities and Local Government what recent submissions he has received on the future use of the (a) Wiltshire 65 estate and (b) IT system constructed as part of the England 7,147 FiReControl project. [15023] England and Wales 7,563 Source: Robert Neill: One recent submission from EADS has Fire and Rescue incident records, CLG been received specifically on the future of the estate and Fruit IT system constructed as part of the FiReControl project. Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much was Communities and Local Government what meetings spent on fruit supplied to Ministerial offices in his (a) Ministers and (b) officials in his Department have Department in (a) 2008-09 and (b) 2009-10. [15053] had on the future use of the (i) estate and (ii) IT system constructed as part of the FiReControl project since Robert Neill: None. 25 May 2010; and which organisations (A) requested and (B) attended such meetings. [15024] Housing Improvements: Disability

Robert Neill: The Government are becoming increasingly Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State concerned at the inability of EADS to deliver on its for Communities and Local Government what recent contractual obligations to a sufficient quality and time assessment he has made of the disabled facilities grant; and we have made this clear to them in no uncertain if he will retain current funding levels for the grant; and terms. if he will make a statement. [13918] Since 25 May 2010 my officials have had one meeting with EADS, specifically at their request, to hear their Andrew Stunell: The disabled facilities grant assists alternative ideas for the future use of the estate and IT disabled people to live as comfortably and independently system constructed as part of the FiReControl project. as possible in their own homes. Any statements concerning 1063W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1064W levels of funding in respect of the disabled facilities Robert Neill: I have today placed in the Library of the grant programme will be made following the spending House a table containing details of the average national review settlement. non-domestic rates bill in each (a) Government office region and (b) local authority area in England in each Local Enterprise Partnerships of the last three years. The data, which refer to the local lists only, are taken Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for from NNDR returns submitted by billing authorities in Communities and Local Government how soon he expects England. local enterprise partnerships to be established once they Average non-domestic rates are calculated by dividing have been approved by his Department. [15275] the net rate yield, after deductions for reliefs, from local authorities’ lists by the number of hereditaments on Robert Neill: The closing date for submitting local local lists as at 31 December of the previous year. enterprise partnership proposals to the Government Comparisons across years should be treated with caution was 6 September 2010. I am pleased to confirm that as figures will reflect changes in the number and type of Government received 57 proposals from groups of councils hereditaments as well as changes to rateable values and and businesses from across the country. A joint press multipliers. notice is available on the CLG and BIS websites. The Government are keen to see partnerships remain Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for proactive and maintain momentum. Over the coming Communities and Local Government how much each weeks Ministers will consider the proposals in detail, local authority collected in national non-domestic rate looking at how they will support economic growth, revenue in each of the last three years. [14985] before providing feedback to partnerships ahead of the publication of the White Paper on sub-national economic Robert Neill: I have today placed in the Library of the growth and the introduction of the Localism Bill. House a table containing details of the amount of national non-domestic rates collected in each local authority Local Government Finance: Wigan area in England in each of the last three years. The data are taken from the national non-domestic Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for rates (NNDR3) returns submitted annually by all local Communities and Local Government (1) whether he billing authorities in England. has made an assessment of the impact on frontline services in Wigan of the spending reductions he announced Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for in his written ministerial statement of 10 June 2010, Communities and Local Government how many Official Report, columns 15-17WS, on the local government national non-domestic rate hereditaments there were in savings package; [14963] each (a) region and (b) local authority area in each of the last three years. [14986] (2) what representations he has from individuals and organisations in Wigan on the effect of the spending Robert Neill: I have today placed in the Library of the reductions he announced in the written ministerial House a table containing details of the number of statement of 10 June 2010, Official Report, columns national non-domestic rate hereditaments in each (a) 15-17WS, on the local government savings package, on Government office region and (b) local authority area forthcoming services in Wigan. [14964] in each of the last three years. The data are as at 31 December and are taken from Robert Neill: We asked local authorities to make a the national non-domestic rates (NNDR1) returns contribution of £1.166 billion to the £6.2 billion of submitted annually by all local billing authorities in cross-Government savings in 2010-11 to enable the England. Government to take immediate action to start to tackle the fiscal deficit. We have taken action to provide the Planning Inspectorate: Handbooks flexibility needed to allow local authorities the freedom to make their own decisions about where savings are Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for found without impacting on essential frontline services. Communities and Local Government if he will place in The Government lifted restrictions on how local authorities the Library a copy of the Planning Inspectors’ Handbook. spend their funding on grants totalling £1.2 billion. We [15080] also made no changes to the amount of formula grant which each council received this year. This is the main Robert Neill: A copy of the Planning Inspectors’ funding paid to local authorities with no strings on how Handbook is available in the Library of the House. The they use that money. The impact on their area of the Government have announced and will continue to announce reductions in grants this year will be for local authorities significant changes to planning policy and practice. On to decide. We have received no representations from this basis, a decision has been taken to cancel and individuals and. organisations in Wigan on the effect of archive the Inspectors’ Handbook and to ensure that all these changes on services. new advice to Planning Inspectors is provided through the PINS or CLG websites. Non-domestic Rates Referendums

Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what the average Communities and Local Government whether he plans national non-domestic rate bill was in each (a) region to bring forward legislative proposals to give residents and (b) local authority area in each of the last three the power to instigate binding local referendums on years. [14984] any local issue. [14835] 1065W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1066W

Robert Neill: As we made clear in our coalition This close working is illustrated by the press releases programme for government, published on 20 May, we of 7 June 2010 and 19 July 2010 on the new Government’s will give residents the power to instigate local referendums policy of scrapping bin taxes, issued jointly from the on any local issue. We intend to include the necessary two respective Secretaries of State. statutory provisions as part of the Localism Bill which http://www.communities.gov.uk/newsstories/newsroom/ was announced in the Queen’s Speech for this parliamentary 1607787 Session. http://www.communities.gov.uk/news/newsroom/1643149 Smith Institute West Northamptonshire Development Corporate: Public Relations Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what strategic Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for consultancy work was undertaken by the Smith Institute Communities and Local Government with reference to for his Department in 2009-10; what the cost was; and his Department’s press release of 5 August 2010, if he which Minister authorised the contract. [15062] will place in the Library a copy of the contract and project brief for work undertaken for West Northants Robert Neill: The Smith Institute produced the Development Corporation by Chelgate Public Affairs; monograph ’the thames gateway - where next?’ in 2009-10. and how much was spent on the contract. [15027] Communities and Local Government contributed £13,374.94 towards its cost and allied research. The Andrew Stunell [holding answer 13 September 2010]: then Minister for the Thames Gateway (Mr Shahid West Northamptonshire Development Corporation Malik) approved the contribution. (WNDC) appointed Chelgate Ltd in November 2008 to deliver consultancy support as set out in the project Thurrock Thames Gateway Development Corporation brief, a copy of which will be placed in the Library of the House. The contract was terminated in May 2010. Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for The total cost of the work under the contract was Communities and Local Government with reference to £133,803. his Department’s press release of 5 August 2010, if he West Northamptonshire Development Corporation: will place in the Library a copy of the contract and Public Relations project brief for work undertaken for Thurrock Thames Gateway Development Corporation by Connect Public Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Affairs; and how much was spent on the contract. Communities and Local Government for what reasons [15054] the West Northants Development Corporation had a contract with Chelgate Public Affairs. [15058] Robert Neill: I have arranged for a copy of the Thurrock Thames Gateway Development Corporation’s Andrew Stunell: West Northamptonshire Development contract with Connect Public Affairs to be placed in the Corporation (WNDC) appointed Chelgate Ltd in Library of the House. In the last 12 months, the Thurrock November 2008 to deliver consultancy support as set Thames Gateway Development Corporation has paid out in the project brief, a copy of which will be placed in £45,102 in professional fees to Connect Public Affairs the Library of the House. The contract was terminated to provide political monitoring and support their in May 2010. The total cost of the work under the communications, stakeholder engagement and events contract was £133,803. strategies. Waste Management: Departmental Responsibilities ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Supply Communities and Local Government what responsibilities his Department has for the (a) development and (b) implementation of (i) policy and (ii) programmes relating Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy to (A) waste and (B) recycling; which of these responsibilities and Climate Change if he will make a statement on his are shared with the Department for the Environment, Department’s contribution to the Strategic Defence Food and Rural Affairs; and what mechanisms are in and Security Review with regard to the energy security place to ensure the effective co-ordination of such policies of the UK. [14352] and programmes between the two Departments. [15156] Charles Hendry: The Government will publish its findings from the Strategic Defence and Security Review Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and (SDSR) later in the autumn, in coordination with the Local Government works closely with the Department outcome of the Spending Review. Energy Security is for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on cross-cutting being considered as part of the review. issues, including helping rural communities, protecting our countryside and natural heritage, tackling flooding, Greenhouse Gas Emissions promoting sustainable building and waste and recycling policy. Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State We ensure effective working through a number of for Energy and Climate Change what requirements mechanisms, including representation on relevant there are on (a) district and (b) county councils to departmental programme boards, and the close working reduce greenhouse gas emissions; and if he will make a of Ministers. statement. [14594] 1067W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1068W

Gregory Barker [holding answer 13 September 2010]: Renewable Energy: Electric Cables There are no requirements for local authorities to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. There are however three reporting George Freeman: To ask the Secretary of State for requirements for local authorities. Energy and Climate Change what his Department’s National Indicators 185 and 186 measure percentage plans are to support the installation of high voltage reductions in emissions from local authorities’ own direct current cabling and infrastructure for the distribution estate and operations and emissions from local authority of offshore and onshore renewable electricity generation. areas respectively. They, and all national indicators, are [15088] currently under review by the Department for Communities and Local Government. Charles Hendry: We expect offshore windfarm developers The Home Energy Conservation Act 1995 (HECA) and onshore transmission owners to select the most places a duty on those local authorities with housing cost-effective technology for their particular projects, responsibilities to produce, publish and submit to the which could include HVDC cables. DECC is committed Secretary of State a report which sets out energy to ensuring delivery of new network infrastructure at conservation measures that the authority considers practical, reasonable cost to consumers that we need to meet our cost-effective and likely to result in significant improvement energy and climate change goals. As the energy regulator, in the energy efficiency of residential accommodation Ofgem assesses options proposed by industry for new in its area and to report progress made in implementing network infrastructure. Ofgem make their decisions on the measures. funding new investments based on the impacts on cost to consumers and the need to deliver new infrastructure From April 2010, the CRC Energy Efficiency Scheme to meet energy and climate goals. requires those qualifying local authorities to report their own estate emissions, and will incentivise them to Together with Ofgem, we are currently consulting on improve their performance relative to other participants. the new competitive licensing regime to connect offshore windfarms to the onshore grid. This consultation seeks views on whether any further action is required to Greenhouse Gas Emissions: Business ensure a coordinated approach to the onshore and offshore grid within the regime. The consultation closes on 29 September 2010. Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what plans he has to Wind Power introduce mandatory reporting of greenhouse gas emissions by businesses; and if he will make a statement. [14438] Edward Miliband: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Paice: I have been asked to reply. Energy and Climate Change what recent representations he has received from businesses on the financial situation The Climate Change Act 2008 requires that, by 6 of the offshore wind industry. [13965] April 2012, the Secretary of State either introduces regulations for mandatory reporting of greenhouse gases Charles Hendry: I am working closely with the offshore by companies or explains to Parliament why she has wind industry and receive representations on a range of decided not to regulate. issues, including finance. The next meeting of the Offshore Once the Government have considered the contribution Wind Developers Forum, where such issues will be that reporting makes to the UK meeting its climate discussed, will take place on 28 October 2010. change objectives, we will decide whether to introduce In addition, since August my officials have been regulations. conducting a series of one-to-one meetings with developers, as part of a proactive approach to stakeholder engagement. Power Stations: Offshore Industry There has been a strongly favourable response from industry parties, including offshore wind developers, to our decision to improve grid access arrangements for George Freeman: To ask the Secretary of State for new generation by introducing an enduring ’Connect Energy and Climate Change what (a) planning regulations, and Manage’ regime. (b) planning guidance and (c) other regulations there are on the location of power stations required to connect Edward Miliband: To ask the Secretary of State for offshore energy to the national grid. [15083] Energy and Climate Change what plans he has to encourage foreign investment in the UK’s offshore Charles Hendry: There is no specific guidance for the wind industry. [13967] siting of onshore substations to deliver offshore renewable energy into the electricity network. But any proposal Charles Hendry: Offshore wind energy will make a will need to be justified in a planning process in terms of key contribution to achieving our renewables targets. acceptability from an environmental and planning We will put in place a robust delivery plan which will perspective. take into account market and investor views. We are Together with Ofgem, we are currently consulting on committed to comprehensive support for renewable the new competitive licensing regime to connect offshore electricity, through the establishment of a full system of windfarms to the onshore grid. This consultation seeks feed-in tariffs—as well as the maintenance of banded views on whether any further action is required to renewables obligation certificates, with the aim of ensuring ensure a coordinated approach to the onshore and the most straightforward regime for investors. The Offshore offshore grid within the regime. The consultation closes Wind Developers Forum, which I co-chair, includes on 29 September 2010. both domestic and international developers and has 1069W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1070W been tasked to ensure the viability and deliverability of Anti-Semitism offshore wind in the UK through existing and future rounds of development, and to maximise the economic Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the opportunities available for UK-based business. In addition, Home Department what steps her Department has (a) Offshore grids are a significant opportunity for foreign taken since July 2010 and (b) plans to take during the investment. Offshore transmission operators (OFTOs) next three months to combat anti-Semitism; and if she will be appointed through competitive tenders to build will make a statement. [14260] and maintain transmission networks in UK waters, with an expected £15 billion of investment required to James Brokenshire: The Department of Communities 2020. We have already announced the appointment of and Local Government have the policy lead in tackling three OFTOs to manage £700 million of offshore grid anti-Semitism. assets, one of which is an overseas investor. A cross-government working group to tackle anti- Semitism, which the Home Office is part of, was set up Edward Miliband: To ask the Secretary of State for to take forward the Government’s response to anti- Energy and Climate Change whether he plans to Semitism. The working group meets quarterly and last increase the amount of offshore wind energy produced met in July 2010. nationally. [13969] Antisocial Behaviour Orders: Gateshead Charles Hendry: We are committed to increasing significantly the amount of energy which is generated Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for the from renewable sources for reasons of energy security Home Department how many residents of Gateshead and to mitigate climate change. We are fortunate in borough (a) are subject to antisocial behaviour orders having an abundant wind resource in the UK and are and (b) have breached an antisocial behaviour order in advancing the deployment of offshore wind energy to the last 12 months. [13795] meet renewables and low carbon targets. We will put in place a robust delivery plan. We are aiming to publish James Brokenshire: Data collected centrally by the more details in spring 2011. We are discussing the Ministry of Justice on the number of antisocial behaviour development a North Seas grid with other North European orders (ASBOs) issued and breached are not available countries which would potentially enhance our energy below Criminal Justice System (CJS) area level. A further security. breakdown could only be ascertained by reference to individual court files, which could be achieved only at Wind Power: Noise disproportionate cost.

Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State Antisocial Behaviour Orders: Hyndburn for Energy and Climate Change what process his Department used to select Hayes McKenzie to oversee Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for the the investigation into the application of planning Home Department how many antisocial behaviour authorities of the ETSU R 97 method for the orders were issued to residents of Hyndburn in each assessment and rating of noise from wind farms. year since 2002. [13988] [15392] James Brokenshire: The latest available data on the Charles Hendry: DECC selected Hayes McKenzie number of antisocial behaviour orders (ASBOs) issued through standard Government procurement processes. covers the period 1 April 1999 to 31 December 2008. We invited a number of expert organisations to bid for Data collected centrally by the Ministry of Justice on the contract, and assessed the bids received against the number of ASBOs issued are not available below standard procurement criteria. The Hayes McKenzie Criminal Justice System (CJS) area level. A further bid scored most highly against those criteria. breakdown could only be ascertained by reference to individual court files, which could be achieved only at disproportionate cost.

Antisocial Behaviour: Public Opinion HOME DEPARTMENT Alan Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Alcoholic Drinks: Prices Home Department what assessment she has made of the findings of the July 2010 British Crime Survey in Karl McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for respect of public perceptions of levels of antisocial the Home Department when she expects to bring behaviour. [14049] forward legislative proposals to prohibit the sale of alcohol below cost price. [14921] Mrs May: The 2009-10 British Crime Survey (BCS) shows that around one in seven adults in England and James Brokenshire [holding answer 14 September 2010]: Wales (14%) perceive their local area suffers from high The Government are committed to banning the sale of levels of antisocial behaviour (ASB). alcohol below cost price. We are considering all options The survey findings also reveal large variations between and plan to introduce this measure at the earliest local areas with, for example, over one in four people in opportunity without unduly impacting on industry or the most deprived areas perceiving a high level of ASB, responsible drinkers. nearly five times the level in the most affluent areas. 1071W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1072W

Previous findings have shown that around three-quarters of asylum, grants of exceptional leave to remain (ELR), of people who experienced ASB in their local area did humanitarian protection (HP) and discretionary leave not complain to any agency or individual. Incidents of (DL) and refusals between 2001 and 2009 (figures for drunk or rowdy behaviour were least likely to be reported 2000 are not available). Figures only include initial (14%) whereas 49% of those who experienced noisy or decisions on asylum applications and exclude all subsequent nuisance neighbours complained to someone (2007-08 decisions. Figures on initial decisions are shown by year BCS). of decision; initial decisions by year of application are Levels of antisocial behaviour remain too high which not available. is why we are reviewing all of the tools and powers that Information on asylum is published annually and are available to police forces and other agencies to deal quarterly in the Control of Immigration: Statistics United with ASB, including the antisocial behaviour order, to Kingdom bulletin which is available from the Library of ensure those tackling it have an effective toolkit that is the House and from the Home Office Research, quick, practical and easy to use. Development and Statistics Directorate website at: Asylum http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- stats.html James Wharton: To ask the Secretary of State for the Applications1 received for asylum in the United Kingdom, excluding dependants, and initial decisions on applications, female asylum Home Department whether her Department provides applicants only, nationals of Pakistan, 2001 to 2009 assistance to asylum seekers with a professional or Applications Initial decisions2 skilled background to retain their skills whilst awaiting Total Grants Granted determination of their claims; and if she will make a initial of ELR/ Total statement. [14901] decisions asylum HP/DL3 refusals

Damian Green: The UK Border Agency does not 2001 605 680 130 45 510 provide assistance to asylum seekers with a professional 2002 635 620 95 15 510 or skilled background to retain their skills while awaiting 2003 610 665 60 5 600 determination of their claims. 2004 640 700 50 25 625 Asylum seekers are entitled to apply for permission 2005 540 545 40 20 490 to work if they have not received a decision on their 2006 440 395 40 15 345 initial claim after 12 months, providing the delay is not 2007 390 385 55 10 320 their fault. Following an amendment to the Immigration 2008 430 325 45 10 265 Rules, asylum seekers who apply for permission to work 20094 405 395 50 5 335 on the basis of such a delay are restricted to employment 1 Figures are rounded to the nearest 5 and may not sum to the totals in jobs on the Shortage Occupation List. shown because of independent rounding. 2 Initial decisions do not necessarily relate to applications made in the same period and exclude the outcome of appeals or other subsequent Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for the decisions. Home Department how many asylum seekers there are 3 Humanitarian protection (HP) and discretionary leave (DL) replaced from each country of origin whose cases (a) were exceptional leave to remain (ELR) from 1 April 2003. pending at the inception of the legacy cases scheme and 4 Provisional figures. (b) are still awaiting processing under that scheme. [15134] Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether an assessment of the Damian Green: The UK Border Agency is unable to human rights situation for women in Pakistan is made accurately report on the initial or outstanding volume when determining asylum applications from such of asylum cases being dealt with by the Case Resolution women. [15287] Directorate (CRD) by nationality. As reported in July 2010 to the Home Affairs Select Committee, 50% of the Damian Green: The UK Border Agency’s Country of concluded cases were data errors and required no further Origin Information (COI) Service produces COI reports or any administrative action. Therefore, any such report focusing on the main human rights issues in countries would be unable to accurately represent CRD cases by that generate the most asylum claims in the UK. Each nationality. country report has a specific section which covers issues The agency will be reporting on its current performance affecting women, including Pakistan. in clearing the backlog in the autumn. I am confident All asylum and Human Rights claims, including those CRD are on track to clear the backlog of older asylum from Pakistan, are carefully considered on their individual cases by summer 2011 or earlier. merits in accordance with our obligations under the Asylum: Pakistan 1951 UN refugee convention and the European convention on human rights (ECHR) against the background of the latest available country information. Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many women from Pakistan have applied for asylum in the UK in each Borders: Personal Records year since 2000; and how many such applications were (a) granted and (b) refused. [15286] David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Damian Green: The accompanying table shows the the Home Department on how many occasions number of asylum applications from female nationals changes have been made to the specifications for the of Pakistan and initial decisions broken down by grants contract relating to the e-Borders programme. [12843] 1073W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1074W

Damian Green: There were 58 changes to the what the role of each consultancy was in respect of the specifications for the contract formally agreed between programme; what assessment she has made of the (i) the parties, many of which dealt with relatively minor value for money of the use of consultants and (ii) changes. contribution by consultants to the management of the programme; and whether she plans to retain the use of Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for the consultants in the next e-Borders procurement exercise. Home Department how many consultants were employed [12935] by her Department on the e-Borders programme in (a) 2006-07, (b) 2007-08, (c) 2008-09 and (d) 2009-10; Damian Green: The following table provides the numbers how many have been employed in 2010-11 to date; what and costs of consultants and independent contractors the cost to the public purse has been in each such case; employed by the e-Borders programme since 2006.

Consultancy 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-111

Headcount 103 81 53 60 65 Costs (£) 10,046,869 9,601,330 10,651,890 11,810,027 2,984,450 1 3 months

Prior to contract award, the role of consultants was James Brokenshire: The Home Office is responsible to manage and provide advice on the procurement for the police recorded crime statistics and data for the process. Following contract award, consultants provided number of offences detected are given in the table. advice and support in a number of areas including However, it is not possible to track individual offences business design, programme management, carrier and through to any conclusion at court and we therefore port liaison and testing activities. cannot provide information on the number of suspects (i) All work carried out by consultants was agreed in proceeded against for these offences. formal work packages which detailed the deliverables The collection of statistics on defendants proceeded and activities required. Achievement of those deliverables against is the responsibility of the Ministry of Justice. was signed off by civil servants. Consideration of the However, data held by the Ministry of Justice is not value for money provided by consultants in carrying directly comparable with the police recorded crime data out these activities was an integral part of the process in shown in the table. agreeing each work package. Number of offences detected by the police in England and Wales1 (ii) The e-Borders programme has been managed Period Burglary Theft2; Robbery throughout by senior civil servants reporting ultimately to the senior responsible officer. Advice and guidance 2001-023 103,455 364,839 19,820 on specialist areas of expertise has been provided by 2002- 111,135 375,052 20,481 consultants during this period to the senior management 034,5 team and the e-Borders programme. 2003-04 103,842 354,201 19,298 The current plan is to retain some consultants to 2004-05 89,025 336,235 18,300 advise on the next e-Borders procurement exercise, with 2005-06 88,092 354,152 18,015 consultancy expenditure in the year to March 2011 2006-07 87,056 353,235 18,953 currently forecast to fall to £7 million. 2007-08 77,031 332,888 17,111 2008-09 77,889 340,922 16,835 The use of external consultants provides the UK Border Agency with specialist knowledge, skill, capacity 2009-10 68,633 305,810 15,391 1 From 1 April 2007 the rules governing recording of non-sanction and technical expertise that would not otherwise be detections were revised to reduce the scope within which they can be available. claimed to a very small limited set of circumstances. This has significantly The periods covered saw the programme move from reduced the number of non-sanction detections which has been procurement of the strategic solution and provision of reflected in the overall detection numbers. 2 Includes offences against vehicles and other thefts. the Semaphore pilot system to the more complex activity 3 Excludes British Transport Police. to assure the design and delivery of the strategic solution. 4 The National Crime Recording Standard was introduced in April The fall in consultant and contractor headcount during 2002 and figures before and after that date are not directly comparable. this time did not deliver an equivalent reduction in cost 5 Includes the British Transport Police from 2002-03 onwards. since there was an associated change in the mix and Human Trafficking: Children type of consultancy support provided, along with a need to use more hours from individual consultants Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for the because of the pressures on the programme and the Home Department how many children referred to the requirement for their specialist knowledge. National Referral Mechanism have been identified as trafficked and subsequently prosecuted for alleged Crime: Theft criminal activity in which they have been involved as a result of being trafficked. [15123] Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many offences of (a) burglary, Damian Green: The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) (b) theft and (c) robbery were detected in each of the has been consulted but does not hold records which last nine years; and in respect of how many such could identify young offenders prosecuted for criminal offences suspects were proceeded against in each such activity committed as a direct consequence of their year. [15705] being trafficked. 1075W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1076W

Licensing Laws Damian Green: I wrote to the right hon. Member on 13 September 2010. Ms Bagshawe: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many applications for temporary Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for event notices there were in each local authority area in the Home Department when she plans to reply to the each of the last three years. [14981] letter of 2 August 2010 from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Ms S. Mpofo. James Brokenshire: Data relating to the number of [15188] applications for temporary event notices (TENs) for each of the last three years are included in Tables 1-3. Damian Green: I wrote to the right hon. Member on Copies of these tables will be placed in the Libraries of 13 September 2010. the House. Data for 2009-10 will be published on 29 September 2010. Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when she plans to reply to the Members: Correspondence letter of 2 August 2010 from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Miss B. A. Boasiako. [15189] Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when her Department plans to reply to the letter of 30 July 2010 from the right hon. Damian Green: I wrote to the right hon. Member on 8 Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to September 2010. Mr Waseem Shazad. [15179] Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Damian Green: I wrote to the right hon. Member on the Home Department when she plans to reply to the 13 September 2010. letter of 15 July 2010 from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Mrs H. Farhat. Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for [15192] the Home Department when she plans to reply to the letter of 20 July 2010 from the right hon. Member for Damian Green: I wrote to the right hon. Member on Manchester, Gorton with regard to Mr M. I. Khan. 13 September 2010. [15181] Off-licences Damian Green: I replied to the right hon. Member on behalf of the Home Secretary on 8 September 2010. Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for the Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department how many licences for alcohol off-sales the Home Department when she plans to reply to the there are per head of population in each constituency. letter of 30 July 2010 from the right hon. Member for [13732] Manchester, Gorton with regard to Mr R. Boadi. [15183] James Brokenshire: On 31 March 2009 there were 44,432 premises licences with off sales only alcohol Damian Green: I wrote to the right hon. Member on licences (as reported by 93% of all licensing authorities). 13 September 2010. A full breakdown by licensing authority per thousand population has been placed in the Libraries of the Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for House. Data have been provided at local authority level the Home Department when she plans to reply to the as it is not available by constituency. letter of 2 August 2010 from the right hon. Member for Source: Manchester, Gorton with regard to Ms L. T. Sithole. Alcohol, Entertainment and Late Night Refreshment Licensing, [15185] England and Wales, April 2008 to March 2009

Damian Green: I wrote to the right hon. Member on Passports: Biometrics 8 September 2010.

Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Meg Hillier: To ask the Secretary of State for the the Home Department when she plans to reply to the Home Department whether she has concluded commercial letter of 2 August 2010 from the right hon. Member for negotiations with suppliers of second generation biometric Manchester, Gorton with regard to Mr R. K. Mzwimbi. passport technology; and what level of savings she [15186] expects to accrue to the Exchequer as a result of the introduction of such technology. [13818] Damian Green: I replied to the right hon. Member on behalf of the Home Secretary on 8 September 2010. Damian Green: It is estimated that Exchequer savings of approximately £134 million will be realised by halting Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for the introduction of fingerprint biometric passports. the Home Department when she plans to reply to the Commercial negotiations with suppliers of second letter of 2 August 2010 from the right hon. Member for generation biometric passport are nearing completion Manchester, Gorton with regard to Mr C. Madzonayiko. and the results of those negotiations will be announced [15187] in due course. 1077W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1078W

Schengen Agreement those elements of the Schengen acquis to which we are bound: a Council Regulation to establish an Agency for Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State the purposes of managing existing IT systems in the for the Home Department (1) which EU proposals and area of Justice and Home Affairs. The UK has notified initiatives other than those that seek to build upon the its wish to participate in that measure. Schengen acquis have been presented to the Council The table shows the main Title IV TEC measures for pursuant to Title V of Part Three of the Treaty on the which information is held centrally and to which the Functioning of the European Union; what the date of opt-in applied. Since the entry into force of the Lisbon presentation to the Council was of each; in respect of Treaty on 1 December 2009, more information has been which such proposals and initiatives the UK has held centrally. notified the President of the Council of its wish to participate in adoption and application; and on what There have been 25 measures to which the Title V TFEU opt-in has applied, to which the UK has opted-in date the UK made each such notification; [15306] to 15 and out of six and a further four published (2) which EU proposals or initiatives that seek to proposals where the Government will take a decision build upon the Schengen acquis and would, if adopted, within the next three months. There have been four apply to the UK, are under consideration at EU level; measures to which the Schengen opt-out applied (excluding what the three month period in which the UK could the IT Agency). The UK is participating in all four. notify the Council that it does not wish to take part in that proposal or initiative is in the case of each; what Additional information on the dates when all these notifications the UK has made; and on what date in measures were presented, when the UK signalled its acceptance, when they were adopted and entered into each case; [15307] force were not held centrally prior to the entry into (3) which EU acts building upon the Schengen force of the Lisbon Treaty and could be obtained only acquis that apply to the UK have been adopted at disproportionate cost. However, all decisions to opt following the entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon; into or out of JHA measures are notified to Parliament and which of those have not yet entered into force; at the time they are made. The first annual report will be [15308] presented to Parliament in December providing retrospective (4) which EU acts which do not constitute part of information on the UK’s application of the opt-in the Schengen acquis or build upon that acquis which Protocol from 1 December 2009 to 1 December 2010, a apply to the UK were adopted on the basis of Title IV year since the Lisbon Treaty came into force. of the Treaty establishing the European Community prior to the entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon; Terrorism: Intercept Evidence which of those have not yet entered into force; and on what date the UK decided to (a) take part in the Alan Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the adoption and application of the proposal or (b) accept Home Department what progress her Department is each such act; [15309] making on determining ways to allow intercept (5) which EU acts and other legally binding EU evidence to be used in terrorism cases. [13920] provisions that constitute part of the Schengen acquis Mrs May: The Government are committed to seeking or which build upon that acquis apply to the UK and to find a practical way to allow the use of intercept were adopted prior to the entry into force of the Treaty evidence in court. An important first stage in doing so is of Lisbon; and which of them have not yet entered into ensuring that the previous analysis set out in the Privy force; [15310] Council review (Cm 7324), in ’Intercept as Evidence a (6) which EU acts, which do not build upon the report’ (Cm 7760) and in the report by the Advisory Schengen acquis, which apply to the UK were adopted Group of Privy Counsellors under cover of the right on the basis of Title V of Part Three of the Treaty on hon. Member’s written ministerial statement of 25 March the Functioning of the European Union following the is assessed appropriately. We are currently doing so and entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon; which of them will set out the way forward following that assessment. have not yet entered into force; and on what date the UK decided to (a) take part in the adoption and Written Questions: Government Responses application of the proposal and (b) accept each such act. [15391] Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when she plans to answer question James Brokenshire: The tables placed in the House 8166, tabled on 8 July 2010, on the Terrorism Act 2000 Libraries set out measures which have been presented to (section 44). [15290] the European Council pursuant to Title IV on the Treaty establishing the European Community (“TEC Nick Herbert [holding answer 14 September 2010]: I pre-Lisbon measures”) and Title V of the Treaty on the refer the right hon. Member to the reply given on Functioning of the European Union (“TFEU post-Lisbon 14 September 2010, Official Report, column 913W. measures”) attracting the UK opt-in. It also presents measures pursuant to those elements of the Schengen acquis in which the UK participates (the police and CABINET OFFICE criminal justice elements) since the entry into force of the Lisbon Treaty, when our ability to opt out of such European Year of Volunteering measures was created. The UK was automatically bound by any measure tabled pursuant to those elements of Philip Davies: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet the Schengen acquis in which we participate prior to the Office what activities have been funded by the European entry into force of the Lisbon Treaty. There is only one Yearof Voluntary Activities Promoting Active Citizenship measure currently under negotiation which builds on in the UK. [14460] 1079W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1080W

Mr Hurd: Policy related to volunteering is a devolved The Office for National Statistics compiles monthly labour issue. Devolved Administrations in Scotland, Wales disputes statistics for the UK. They exclude disputes which do not and Northern Ireland are developing separate plans for result in a stoppage of work and stoppages involving fewer than activity related to the European Year of Volunteering ten workers or lasting less than one day, unless the total number of working days lost in the dispute is 100 or more. 2011. The Office for Civil Society is currently developing a Figures on a public and private sector basis are only available work programme for activity in England for submission from 1996 onwards. No breakdown is available by industry and to the European Commission. Further information on by a public/private split. Figures are also only available for collective disputes. activity planned for the year in England will be made available in the autumn of 2010. Table 1 provides estimates of the number of stoppages for the public and private sector; in the United Kingdom from 1996 to Industrial Disputes 2009. Table 2 provides figures on an industrial sector basis. Table 1: Stoppages for the public and private sector Sajid Javid: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Number Office how many (a) collective and (b) individual trade disputes of each type in the (i) public and (ii) private Public sector Private sector sector were recorded in each class of economic activity 1996 102 142 under the 2007 Standard Industrial Classification in 1997 89 127 each year since 1990; and if he will make a statement. 1998 78 88 [14106] 1999 103 102 2000 113 99 Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the 2001 111 83 responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have 2002 61 85 asked the authority to reply. 2003 46 87 Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated September 2010: 2004 68 62 As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I 2005 60 56 have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question concerning how many (a) collective and (b) individual trade-disputes 2006 87 71 of each type in the (i) public and (ii) private sector were recorded 2007 90 52 in each class of economic activity under the 2007 Standard 2008 75 69 Industrial Classification in each year since 1990; arid if he will 2009 49 49 make a-statement. (14106)

Table 2: Stoppages on an industrial sector basis Number Mining, Wholesale and Transport, Agriculture, quarrying, retail trade; storage, forestry and electricity, gas repair of motor information and (SIC 2003) fishing and water supply Manufacturing Construction vehicles communication

1996 1 6 67 11 1 71 1997 0 1 53 11 2 68 1998 0 1 36 13 1 57 1999 0 0 37 20 4 91 2000 0 3 38 16 4 116 2001 0 3 32 9 7 94 2002 0 2 33 3 8 51 2003 0 1 43 4 2 45 2004 0 3 30 1 1 46 2005 0 2 19 3 1 42 2006 0 2 25 5 4 30 2007 1 0 22 4 0 55 2008 2 1 21 4 3 28 20091167033

Number Financial intermediation, real Public Other community, estate, renting and administration and Health and social social and personal (SIC 2003) business activities defence Education work service activities etc

1996 6 21 40 9 11 1997 10 23 35 7 8 1998 6 10 19 6 17 1999 3 17 21 4 9 2000 1 7 18 10 13 2001222161210 2002420161411 1081W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1082W

Number Financial intermediation, real Public Other community, estate, renting and administration and Health and social social and personal (SIC 2003) business activities defence Education work service activities etc

2003 2 10 15 7 9 2004 3 19 16 4 12 2005 9 13 22 1 5 2006 9 18 53 4 8 2007620211211 2008 7 16 40 4 18 2009 6 5 30 0 9 Note: When a stoppage has been identified as covering more than one broad industry group, the number of stoppages will be included in all industry groupings that are appropriate.

Public Sector: Community Benefit Clauses such as teamwork, leadership, courage and competitive spirit. As a consequence all service personnel are encouraged Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet to participate in the full range of sporting activities. Office what steps the Government is taking to encourage the use of community benefit clauses in the public Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence sector. [13791] whether any members of the armed forces have been injured and rendered unfit for duty (a) foruptoone Mr Hurd: Cabinet Office is developing work on the week, (b) for up to one month, (c) for longer than one reform of the commissioning process which will look at month and (d) permanently as a result of their participation the opportunity to encourage the building of social in boxing in each of the last five years. [14416] value into the purchasing of public services. Mr Robathan: Information relating to reasons for Social Enterprises: Tax Allowances being unfit for duty is not recorded in a format that allows for different forms of sporting activity to be Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet distinguished. In order to determine how many individuals Office what steps his Department takes to encourage have been injured and/or rendered unfit for duty for any social enterprises to adopt a legal model which entitles period of time due to boxing, a manual search of them to tax relief. [13792] records on multiple sites would be required, and this would incur disproportionate cost. Mr Hurd: The Government are committed to creating an environment in the UK which enables social enterprise Armed Forces: Compensation to thrive. Social enterprises are business and therefore choose a legal form which best suits their business Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for needs. It is not for government to encourage one legal Defence what recent discussions he has had with The form over another. Royal British Legion to (a) increase the scope and Social enterprises are often eligible for tax breaks. monetary value of the Armed Forces Compensation For example, many are charities and benefit from the Scheme and (b) to ensure a similar level of provision associated tax benefit. However, charity tax benefits under the War Pension scheme in respect of claimants come with associated regulatory burden which some injured before 2005; and if he will make a statement. businesses, CICs and many other social enterprises [14707] choose to avoid. More generally, for non-charitable social enterprises, it is also important that Government Mr Robathan: We continue to consult with the Royal avoid giving unfair advantage to one type of business British Legion, who were members of the Independent over another and maintain a level playing field between Scrutiny Group, regarding the implementation of the different types of organisations trading in the market. recommendations of the recent review of the Armed Forces Compensation Scheme (AFCS) conducted by Admiral The Lord Boyce. We will also continue to engage with other interested groups on issues relating to DEFENCE the AFCS through the Central Advisory Committee on Pensions and Compensation. Armed Forces: Boxing In line with Lord Boyce’s recommendation, there are no plans to review the War Pension Scheme provision Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence for injuries before the AFCS was introduced in 2005. what his policy is on the participation of members of the armed forces in boxing; and if he will make a statement. [14415] Armed Forces: Drugs

Mr Robathan: Sport, including boxing, makes a vital Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence contribution to fighting spirit, morale, personal development how many members of each armed service were dismissed and, therefore, operational effectiveness of the armed for using illegal substances in each of the last five years. forces. It has a wide role and contributes to qualities [14766] 1083W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1084W

Mr Robathan: The number of service personnel dismissed Mr Robathan: We are currently undertaking a Strategic for using illegal substances in the last five years is given Defence and Security Review. The outcome will be in the following table. The armed forces drug misuse announced in the autumn after the Government’s spending policy is that the misuse of drugs is inconsistent with review concludes. service life and our policy can be described as ’zero tolerance’. Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will include in the proposed Military Number Covenant a commitment to first class accommodation Royal Navy/ for military personnel and their families. [14674] Royal Marines Army RAF

2005 49 755 27 Mr Robathan: In our programme for government we 2006 59 760 20 stated that we would look at whether there is scope to 2007 66 773 10 refurbish armed forces’ accommodation from efficiencies within the Ministry of Defence. The ongoing Strategic 2008 74 723 21 Defence and Security Review is currently considering 2009 58 657 17 the rationalisation and development of future estates These figures do not include dismissals at court martial and the management of the defence infrastructure in or summary trial resulting from drug-related offences. order to address this commitment. To further classify the specific grounds in these cases, i.e. whether the individual actually used illegal substances, Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence would involve scrutiny of individual cases which would how many thefts from (a) unoccupied and (b) occupied incur disproportionate cost. houses owned by the Ministry of Defence were reported in 2009. [14732]

Armed Forces: Housing Mr Robathan: A complete record of thefts from Defence owned houses is not available as a number of Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for these are reported to and therefore held by, local police Defence what account his Department takes of (a) forces. However, those recorded by the Ministry of children for whom armed forces personnel do not have Defence Police are as follows: full custody, (b) children of armed forces personnel (a) In 2009 there were 96 thefts from unoccupied houses. over the age of 18 years who wish to live with their (b) In 2009 there were 51 thefts from occupied houses. families and (c) elderly relatives for whom armed forces personnel wish to care when allocating service Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence families’ accommodation. [14341] in respect of which 50 substitute (a) service family and (b) single living accommodation properties the highest Mr Robathan [holding answer 13 September 2010]: rents were charged in 2009. [14737] We take our responsibilities towards families seriously and will consider a range of individual circumstances Mr Robathan: Substitute Service Family Accommodation when determining eligibility for Service Families (SSFA) and Substitute Service Single Accommodation Accommodation. This includes wider welfare needs (SSSA) properties may be rented to accommodate Service such as maintaining contact with children or caring for families and single serving personnel respectively when an elderly relative. no suitable Ministry of Defence accommodation is Children under the age of 25, who are not married unavailable close or at the duty station. Substitute and are in full-time education, are considered to remain accommodation is only used as a last resort and often dependent upon parents and as such generate an entitlement more than one Service person may occupy an SSSA for the parents. Where there are non-dependent young property. adults we will do all we can to allocate a property to reflect a specific need, but this is subject to availability. The 50 most expensive SSSA properties rented during 2009 were as follows: Mr Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Number of what work his Department has undertaken on the Location Monthly rent (£) occupants Defence Housing Estate at RAF Brize Norton in preparation for the proposed closure of RAF London SW1P 3,275.00 3 Lyneham. [14452] London SW1P 3,240.00 3 Slough 3,060.75 5 Mr Robathan: In anticipation of an increased requirement London SW1P 3,030.00 1 for accommodation at RAF Brize Norton, work is London SW1V 2,814.80 3 under way to demolish some 600 service family London N1 2,550.00 3 accommodation properties that are at the end of their Salisbury 2,525.00 4 serviceable life. We are currently planning to replace London SE1 2,513.33 2 these with 788 new build properties. London SW6 2,408.33 3 London SW1P 2,408.33 2 Mr Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Saffron Walden 2,402.50 4 what progress his Department has made on implementing London SWIP 2,384.20 2 recommendation 1, on strategic review, of the National London SWIO 2,383.33 1 Audit Office report of Session 2008-09 on Services London SW17 2,371.15 3 Families Accommodation, HC 13. [14453] 1085W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1086W

Number of Location Monthly rent (£) Location Monthly rent (£) occupants Richmond 3,284.45 London SWIP 2,340.00 2 London SW6 3,228.33 London SE1 2,331.80 3 Banstead 3,225.00 London SWIP 2,325.00 3 London W4 3,163.33 London SWIP 2,301.25 2 Richmond 3,152.05 Nottingham 2,300.00 5 London W4 3,141.66 London SW6 2,280.25 2 London SW15 3,126.00 London SWIP 2,275.00 2 Sevenoaks 3,050.75 London SW8 2,272.00 2 London SW11 3,033.33 London NW5 2,253.33 1 London SW15 3,025.25 London SW1P 2,214.75 2 London W4 3,025.00 London SE1 2,209.35 2 Princes Risborough 3,000.00 London E14 2,202.20 2 Great Missenden 3,000.00 Bordon 2,200.00 4 Camberley 3,000.00 London SW11 6,200.00 2 Great Missenden 3,000.00 London SWIP 2,200.00 2 Romsey 3,000.00 Bordon 2,200.00 4 London SW15 3,000.00 London SWIP 2,195.50 2 Northwood 3,000.00 London SE1 2,192.33 2 Great Missenden 2,950.00 LONDON SWIV 2,192.00 2 Kingston Upon Thames 2,925.00 London E14 2,191.66 2 Burford 2,920.00 London W8 2,191.66 1 Epsom 2,920.00 London SE1 2,188.33 1 Aylesbury 2,900.00 London SW8 2,185.05 2 Northwood 2,900.00 London SWIP 2,184.00 2 London SE10 2,900.00 London SWIP 2,182.85 2 High Wycombe 2,850.00 London SWIV 2,181.55 2 Epsom 2,850.00 London SWIV 2,178.50 2 London SW15 2,839.00 London SWIP 2,177.80 2 London SW6 2,825.00 London SW9 2,175.65 2 Windsor 2,800.00 London SWIP 2,173.60 2 London SW11 2,171.60 2 Armed Forces: Medals London SWIP 2,170.00 2 London SWIP 2,169.45 2 Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for London SWIP 2,169.45 2 Defence what progress has been made on reviewing the London SW8 2,162.20 2 (a) right of ex-service personnel to wear medals London SW11 2,162.00 2 awarded by foreign governments and (b) practice of retrospective awarding of UK general service medals. The 50 most expensive SSFA properties rented during [14602] 2009 were as follows: Mr Robathan: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Location Monthly rent (£) I gave on 6 September 2010, Official Report, column 172W,to the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell). London SW3 6,933.33 London W2 6,000.00 Armed Forces: Mental Health Northwood 4,700.00 Windsor 4,500.00 Nicky Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for Gerrards Cross 4,280.00 Defence what assessment his Department has made of London SW19 4,117.00 the effects of loss of limbs in combat on the mental Northwood 4,038.00 health of soldiers. [13345] London W6 3,900.00 London SW13 3,725.00 Mr Robathan: We recognise that all battle-injured London SW6 3,708.33 personnel, including those suffering a traumatic amputation, New Malden 3,700.00 could be at risk of mental health problems. All operational London SW15 3,683.33 casualties who are admitted to the Royal Centre of London W4 3,575.00 Defence Medicine within the University Hospital London SW4 3,575.00 Birmingham NHS Foundation Trust have access to a London SE10 3,525.00 military mental health nurse team. In addition, all Great Missenden 3,500.00 trauma survivors, including amputees, who are referred Warminster 3,500.00 to the Defence Medical Rehabilitation Centre (DMRC) Windsor 3,500.00 at Headley Court have a mental health assessment as London NW3 3,383.33 part of their multidisciplinary team admission assessment. Mental health professionals are available to carry out London E14 3,298.75 further assessments and provide treatment as required. 1087W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1088W

Dr Andrew Murrison MP has been asked by the chief executives of the need to ensure continuity of Prime Minister to carry out a study into the health of provision of prostheses subject to the clinical needs of service personnel to see what more can be done to meet individuals. The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has discussed their needs. transitional arrangements for seriously injured personnel with key NHS providers for those leaving the armed Armed Forces: Prosthetics forces and put in place a protocol to help ensure ease of transfer. Nicky Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for As part of the overall rehabilitation process, military Defence if his Department will undertake a review of patients at Headley Court also have access to trained the (a) quality and fit of prosthetic limbs and (b) level mental health staff, psychologists and social workers of counselling offered to former service personnel who who can provide treatment and advice to help them lose limbs in combat. [13611] come to terms with their injuries. For amputees who are leaving the services and are assessed as requiring ongoing Mr Robathan: Injured UK service personnel who counselling, arrangements will be made for them to have suffered traumatic amputation as a result of battle receive this through the NHS as part of the transfer of or non-battle injury attend the Defence Medical medical care. Transition protocols between MOD and Rehabilitation Centre (DMRC) at Headley Court in DH have been developed and are aimed at ensuring an Surrey, where they are supplied with tailor-made prostheses effective transfer of care from MOD to the NHS and with state of the art componentry which is matched to other providers. their clinical needs. Quality and fit of prosthetic limbs Armed Forces: Uniforms are of paramount importance in the rehabilitation process, and as part of the routine clinical care every amputee Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence case at DMRC is regularly assessed for the comfort and how much his Department spent on replacing the fit of their socket, and the alignment and functional ceremonial uniforms of the (a) Grenadier Guards, (b) quality of all components are checked every time the Coldstream Guards, (c) Scots Guards, (d) Irish Guards patient comes to DMRC as either an in-patient or and (e) Welsh Guards in each of the last 13 years. out-patient. [14740] The Department of Health (DH) and devolved Administrations have agreed that the level for limb Peter Luff: The expenditure over the last six financial fitting support for service personnel should be maintained years for replacing ceremonial uniforms, including hats, by the NHS when the individual leaves the service, be it boots, belts, jackets, trousers and gloves, is provided in on medical discharge or after completion of their the following table. The expenditure for earlier financial engagement. The DH has advised strategic health authority years is no longer held.

£ Guard regiment FY 2004-05 FY 2005-06 FY 2006-07 FY 2007-08 FY 2008-09 FY 2009-10

Grenadier Guards 154,000 38,000 170,000 349,000 282,000 86,000 Coldstream Guards 56,000 151,000 290,000 146,000 188,000 35,000 Scots Guards 45,000 28,000 172,000 69,000 185,000 37,000 Irish Guards 330,000 33,000 172,000 114,000 872,000 61,000 Welsh Guards 11,000 129,000 163,000 109,000 86,000 78,000

Armed Offices: Driving Mr Robathan: Information on the number of trained drivers is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for However, the number of driving licences that have Defence how many service personnel in each service been issued to armed forces personnel as a result of were trained as drivers in each of the last five years for centralised training by the Defence School of Transport, which figures are available; how many in each such year training in individual units across the UK and Germany were trained by (a) military personnel and (b) private and as a result of Urgent Operational Requirements is driving schools; and if he will make a statement. recorded. This information is shown in the following [14702] table:

Trained by Originating service 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

MOD staff (military or civil servants) RN/RM 1,097 1,051 1,991 1,768 1,455 Army 9,876 10,021 10,120 10,291 8,185 RAF 1,535 1,374 1,346 1,616 1,466 Total 12,508 12,446 13,457 13,675 11,106

Contracted Driver Training RN/RM 241 676 183 315 269 1089W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1090W

Trained by Originating service 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Army 6,636 6,981 6,375 6,274 6,916 RAF 98 8 99 192 119 Total 6,975 7,665 6,657 6,781 7,304

Urgent Operational Requirement All services 0 1,092 921 2,081 2,240

An individual may hold more than one licence, for Departmental Television and Film example, a soldier must first hold a Category B driving licence before obtaining their Category C licence (Long Goods Vehicle). Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what (a) television programmes and (b) feature films Army: Horses were filmed at locations owned by his Department in 2009. [14741] Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the cost to the public purse was of maintaining horses in the Army in 2009-10. [15113] Mr Robathan: Film and television programme makers regularly use Ministry of Defence (MOD) locations, Mr Robathan: This information is not held in the format personnel and equipment in their productions. requested, and can be provided only at disproportionate cost. Using MOD assets is of benefit to the MOD by providing positive public relations and income. Commonwealth: Armed Forces A list of locations used in 2009 for non-news programmes and films that have involved the central RN, Army and Karl McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for RAF Public Relations branches is shown in the following Defence how many servicemen from other Commonwealth table. Records of requests to film for news purposes are countries (a) are serving in the UK armed forces and not held centrally. (b) have served in the UK armed forces in (i) the last 10 years and (ii) the last five years; and what estimate he In addition, programme makers can approach individual has made of likely future trends in these numbers. establishments for commercial filming using www. [15047] fllmlocations.mod.uk. The MOD does not hold a central record of all such activity and the information required Mr Robathan: As at 1 July 2010, there were 8,470 could be provided at only disproportionate cost. service personnel who are citizens of Commonwealth Table 1 - Public relations TV/Filming countries. It is not possible to ascertain without Title Company MOD Location disproportionate cost the numbers of Commonwealth service personnel who have served in the last five or in Royal Navy: the last 10 years. However, as at 1 April 2000 and Ross Kemp on Sky One/Tiger HMS Northumberland 1 April 2005, there were 820 and 6,040 Commonwealth Pirates Aspect personnel respectively in the Army. Figures for the Chaplains at Ch 4/Darlow Units in Afghanistan Naval Service and RAF are not available as their legacy War Smithson database systems do not enable the distinction to be Highland Ch 5/Granada HMS Gannett made between Commonwealth citizens and other non- Emergency 2 British nationals. There has been no estimate of future Warship 2 Ch 5/Granada HMS Bulwark trends in the recruitment of Commonwealth citizens. Empire of the BBC2 — Seas Cyprus Sea Patrol Ch 5/Wall To HMS Severn Wall Khumbu Sky One/ — Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Challenge Uppercut Defence whether all the land occupied by his T45 Ch4/ITN Type 45 Destroyer Department’s facilities in Cyprus is classed as sovereign Astute BB2/BBC Astute Submarine British territory. [14905] in-house Chris Barrie’s National 815 NAS, RNAS Yeovilton Mr Robathan: No, not all the land occupied by the Age of the Geographic/ Ministry of Defence’s (MOD) facilities in Cyprus is Machine Gamma Project classed as sovereign British territory. Under the 1960 Bang goes the BBC1 RNAS Yeovilton Treaty of Establishment (ToE) the United Kingdom Theory retained British sovereignty over two areas, one in the Engineering BBC/Darlow HMS Illustrious Connections Smithson south (Akrotiri) and the other in the east (Dhekelia), The Boats That BBC4/Form HMS Bulwark which are known collectively as the Sovereign Base Built Britain Films Areas (SBAs). In addition, the MOD has facilities on Army: several ‘retained sites’. The ToE gives the UK rights on Road Warriors TV1 TwoFour Salisbury Plain Training these sites, although the Republic of Cyprus has sovereignty Area over the territory on which the retained sites are located. 1091W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1092W

Table 1 - Public relations TV/Filming Table 1 - Public relations TV/Filming Title Company MOD Location Title Company MOD Location

Frontline Battle Discovery School of Electrical and Myths of UFOs BBC RAF Fylingdales Machines Mechanical Engineers Genius of C4 RAF Boulmer and Bordon, Defence School of Britain Boscombe Down Transport Leconfield, Bang goes the BBC RAF Cranwell and Valley Defence Training Estate theory (DTE) Lulworth, RAF Odiham, DTE Standford, ″Special Dogs″ - BBC RAF Valley RAF Wattisham, DTE One Show Salisbury Plain, RAF Brize Songs of Praise BBC RAF Valley Norton, RAF Lyneham, Blitz street C4 RAF Spadeadam and 40 Commando Taunton Wittering Scots at War STV Fort George and Redforth Flying Hospital C4 RAF Brize Norton and Barracks Lyneham Location, C4 Army Training Regiment Paul O’Grady C4 RAF Scampton Location, Winchester Show Location Great British — RAF Coningsby and The Restaurant BBC2 13 Air Assault Support Menu Halton Regiment Royal Logistics Air Force Ch5 RAF Cottesmore Corps, Melville Barracks, Afghanistan Colchester Coast BBC RAF Valley Pearson 1410 Royal Military Academy Education DVD Sandhurst Foyles War ITV RAF Halton Safe Drive Stay Surrey Fire and 25 Training Regiment The Kings — RAF Halton Alive Rescue Royal Logistics Corps, Speech Deepcut Cosi — RAF Halton Army Girls Alba TV Cameron Barracks, Inverness Elizabeth Cross The Queen’s ARD TV Windsor Barracks, Hyde Horses Park Barracks, St John’s Wood Barracks, Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Knightsbridge Barracks, how many Elizabeth Crosses have been presented to Horseguards date; and how many were in respect of (a) Iraq and (b) Top Gear BBC2 DTE Bovington Afghanistan. [14706] Out of the BBC2 Royal Military Academy Frying Pan Sandhurst Mr Robathan: As at 10 September 2010, 1,862 Elizabeth Wounded BBC — Crosses have been issued to the eligible next of kin of Fighting C4 Infantry Training Centre deceased service personnel who have died on operations, Passions (Catterick) or as a result of an act of terrorism. 155 were issued in Great British BBC DTE Catterick and respect of Iraq and 299 in respect of Afghanistan. Menu Scotland Seven Ages of BBC Royal School of Germany Britain Mechanical Engineering, Chatham Girls on the BBC3 Maghralavie Barracks, Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Frontline Lisburn Defence how many people employed by his Department Windsor Castle ITVI Windsor Barracks and in Germany are (a) UK citizens and (b) non-UK Royal Tattoo Knightsbridge Barracks citizens. [14628] Scots Guards CBBC Wellington Barracks Band Mr Robathan: The numbers of UK citizens and non-UK RAF: citizens employed in Germany by the Ministry of Defence Coast BBC RAF Digby’s School are shown in the following table. These are civilian Highland Ch5 RAF Lossiemouth employees only. Emergency Sea Patrol National Search and Rescue Number Geographic/Ch 5 Detachment Wattisham UK citizens 4,335 Forces Reunited Sky Real Lives RAF Valley and Leeming Non-UK citizens 3,564 Seven Wonders BBC RAF Henlow of the Solar System Germany: Armed Forces Training the BBC Blue Peter RAF Brize Norton Paras Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Battle of Britain ITV RAF Coningsby Defence how many children of British military personnel with David who are (a) under 10 years old and (b) between 10 and Jason 18-years-old are being educated in Germany. [14627] Trawlers Rigs Virgin 1 SARDets Leconfield, RAF and Rescue Boulmer and Wattisham Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) is Front Line Discovery RAF Brize Norton and Battle Machines Odiham currently educating 5,052 children under 10-years-old Flog.it BBC RAF Halton and 2,313 children between the ages of 10 and 18 in its schools in Germany. It is not possible to split these 1093W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1094W numbers between children of military personnel and Mr Robathan: Rebuilding the Military Covenant is those of UK-based civilians. Not all parents choose to one of the most important objectives of this Government. educate their children within the MOD school system. We are currently considering how best to fulfil the The schools also educate the children of MOD Covenant in terms of resource allocation, policies and contractors and some local community children on a legislation. fee-paying basis. In addition to the numbers above there are currently 61 children under 10 years old, and 38 children Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence aged between 10 and 18 being educated on this basis. what consultation his Department has undertaken on re-writing the military covenant; and if he will make a Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for statement. [14696] Defence how many (a) Army, (b) Royal Air Force and (c) Royal Navy personnel are based in Germany. Mr Robathan: As part of its commitment to rebuild [14630] the Military Covenant, we are planning to refresh and rewrite the Covenant itself. Consultation is now getting Nick Harvey: The number of military personnel based under way and will include both internal and external in Germany is shown in the following table broken representatives of the armed forces community. down by service.

Number Military Exercises

Army 17,743 Mr MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Royal Air Force 171 on how many occasions military personnel undertook Royal Navy 18 training exercises at each site outside the UK between 2008 and 2010. [14655] Gibraltar Nick Harvey: From 1 April 2008 to 31 March 2010, Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for United Kingdom armed forces personnel conducted, or Defence how many people employed by his Department contributed to, some 480 training exercises of varying in Gibraltar are (a) UK citizens and (b) non-UK size and scale, and covering a range of military activities, citizens. [14580] at overseas locations. Nick Harvey: The information is not held in the Mr MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence format requested. what recent estimate he has made of the average annual The numbers of civilian staff employed by British cost to the public purse of sending military personnel to Forces Gibraltar on 3 September 2010 were as follows: train at his Department’s bases and affiliated sites in Scotland. [14656] Civilian staff type Number UK based civilians 60 Nick Harvey: The information is not held centrally Locally engaged civilians 690 and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. of whom: Spanish and Moroccan 45 Mr MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Other nationalities 10 what recent estimate he has made of the average annual cost to the public purse of sending military personnel to There are also a number of civilians employed through sites outside the UK to undertake training exercises. Defence contracts, the numbers and nationalities of [14657] whom are not held centrally. Nick Harvey: The total costs of exercises and training Inside Right Programme conducted outside the UK are known, but the specific costs of sending military personnel participating in Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence these activities are not held centrally and could be what his most recent assessment is of progress of the provided only at disproportionate cost. Inside Right programme; and if he will make a statement. [14703] Roads: Accidents Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence welcomes the Inside Right programme run by the Football Foundation, Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence and has offered financial support over a three year how many members of the armed forces were (a) period. An initial progress report is expected in March killed, (b) seriously injured and (c) slightly injured in 2011 at the end of the first year of the scheme. road accidents when (i) on duty and (ii) off duty in each of the last five years. [14813] Military Covenant Mr Robathan: The following tables provide information Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence on the numbers of armed forces personnel killed (Table when he plans to bring forward legislation to enshrine 1), seriously injured (Table 2) and slightly injured (Table the military covenant in law. [14695] 3) both on and off duty. 1095W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1096W

Table 1: Road accident deaths in the UK regular armed forces, by duty Broadband: Kent status and year Number Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for Under All On duty Off duty investigation Business, Innovation and Skills what plans his Department has to roll out superfast broadband to the rural and All 208 36 171 1 hot-spot areas in Chatham and Aylesford constituency, 2005 52 7 45 0 with particular reference to Wouldham and Larkfield. 2006 57 8 49 0 [15093] 2007 47 12 35 0 2008 25 7 18 0 Mr Vaizey: The Government have stated that they 2009 27 2 24 1 want to see superfast broadband rolled out in rural areas of the UK at the same time as more heavily Table 2: Road accident serious injuries in the UK regular armed forces, populated areas. The market is already rolling out superfast by duty status and year broadband to around two-thirds of the population. We Number intend to support this through a combination of regulatory Duty and public policy measures, and Government financial status All On duty Off duty unknown support, beginning with three pilot projects which we hope to announce soon. All 226 48 115 63 2005 6 — 0 — Cabinet Committees: Trade 2006 51 11 21 19 2007 69 16 29 24 Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, 2008 42 — 25 — Innovation and Skills who will chair the Cabinet Sub- 2009 58 — 40 — Committee on Trade. [15289]

Table 3: Road accident slight injuries in the UK regular armed forces, Mr Prisk [holding answer 14 September 2010]: The by duty status and year coalition Government reviewed the Cabinet committee Number system on entering office to make it more efficient. Duty Where individual trade policy issues arise, they are status All On duty Off duty unknown considered by the relevant committee, such as Economic Affairs, European Affairs or the National Security Council. All 340 131 84 125 2005 37 — 0 — Construction: Industry 2006 89 34 21 34 2007 102 63 20 19 Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, 2008 66 21 21 24 Innovation and Skills how many complaints from the 2009 46 — 22 — public his Department has received about building firms Note: in each of the last five years; and if he will make a All numbers fewer than five have been suppressed. Where there is only statement. [15278] one cell in a row or column that is fewer than five, the next smallest number has also been suppressed so that numbers cannot be derived Mr Davey: The Department does not hold centrally from totals. the information in the format requested and it could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Business, Innovation and Skills how many complaints (a) his Department and (b) its non-departmental Apprentices public bodies have received from the public about Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, (i) Strategy Insurance Limited, (ii) the Federation of Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking to encourage Master Builders and (iii) Homeland Construction in people to take up his Department’s funding for additional the last five years; and if he will make a statement. apprenticeship places in 2010-11. [15578] [15279] Mr Hayes: We know that the demand from young Mr Davey: A search of the records database indicated people and adults for good quality employer-owned that the Department has in the last five years received apprenticeships is high and the Government are committed two complaints in respect of the Federation of Master to increasing the number of apprenticeships, in particular, Builders and none in respect of either Strategy Insurance advanced apprenticeships that confer technician status. Ltd. or Homeland Construction. The Government’s decision to redeploy £150 million of In respect of the Department’s non-departmental our savings for 2010-11, creating an additional 50,000 public bodies: the Department does not hold centrally adult apprenticeship places, demonstrates our commitment the information in the format requested and it could be to high-quality skills. The National Apprenticeships provided only at disproportionate cost. Service and the Skills Funding Agency are working with training providers which will be encouraging employers Debts: Advisory Services to make these additional places available. This investment in our future will help train the next generation, as well Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for as developing the existing work force, which is vital to Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what recent assessment build a modern advanced economy. he has made of the effectiveness of debt advice in 1097W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1098W respect of the most vulnerable people funded from (a) Mr Davey: As my right hon. Friend the Minister of the Financial Inclusion Fund and (b) legal aid funds; State for Universities and Science told the House on [15421] 3 June 2010, Official Report, column 564, my officials (2) what recent assessment he has made of the are considering calls from interested parties for changes effectiveness of government-funded debt advice; and if to be made to the employment tribunal system so as to he will make a statement. [15423] streamline the process. I will make an announcement on what action I propose to take to address these issues in Mr Davey: The majority of research into the effectiveness due course. of debt advice has focused on free debt advice. The Further Education: England results show a very positive picture. The National Audit Office research, carried out over Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, 18 months from the summer of 2008 showed that nearly Innovation and Skills how many students from everyone (95%) given advice under the Face-to-Face England began attending further education colleges in Debt Advice project run by BIS had acted on it and that Wales in each of the last five years. [15336] the great majority (81%) had assessed it as improving their situation. We were pleased to note that their Mr Hayes: Data for students attending further education February report for this year concluded that the project in colleges in Wales is not collected by this Department. was “delivering good value for money”. Information on FE colleges is published by the National In respect of legal aid funds, that is the responsibility Assembly for Wales in the Further Education, Work-based for the Ministry of Justice to assess the effectiveness of Learning and Community Learning in Wales Statistics, their programmes. 2007/08 publication: Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for http://wales.gov.uk/topics/statistics/headlines/ post16education2010/100422/?lang=en Business, Innovation and Skills what recent estimate he has made of the number of Citizens Advice Bureau Further Education: Wales caseworkers provided for from the Financial Inclusion Fund. [15422] Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many students from Wales Mr Davey: It is difficult to provide a precise estimate. began attending further education colleges in England Most of the 16 projects that make up the BIS Face- in each of the last five years. [15366] to-Face Debt Advice project include a mix of caseworkers from Citizens Advice Bureaux and from other debt Mr Hayes: Table 1 shows FE participation of learners, advice agencies. whose home address is in Wales, studying in General The total number of caseworkers employed across Further Education Colleges and all Government funded the advice community is around 500. learners in Further Education in England, 2004/05 to 2008/09, the latest year for which full year data is Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for available. This data excludes learners who have moved Business, Innovation and Skills how many people received from Wales in order to attend a Government funded FE debt advice provided for from the Financial Inclusion provider in England. Fund in each of the last five years. [15465] Table 1: FE participation of learners from Wales in General Further Education Colleges and all FE provision in England from 2004/05 to Mr Davey: In each of the last five years, the number 2008/09 of individuals receiving debt advice from the Face-to-Face General FE College All FE provision Debt Advice project funded via the Financial Inclusion 2004/05 6,400 7,300 Fund (FIF) is as follows. 2005/06 5,800 6,700 2006/07 3,900 4,700 Financial years Number 2007/08 4,200 4,900 2006/07 26,567 2008/09 3,600 4,200 2007/08 92,635 Notes: 1. All figures are rounded to the nearest 100. 2008/09 100,968 2. Figures for 2008/09 are not directly comparable with earlier years 2009/10 105,155 due to a change in funding methodology. 2010 to 30 June 26,442 3. Geographic information is based upon the home postcode of the Total 351,767 learner. 4. Further Education Provision includes General Further Education Colleges including Tertiary, Sixth Form Colleges, Special College— The Debt Advice in Prisons project run by the Legal Agricultural and Horticultural Colleges and Art and Design Colleges, Service Commission is also funded from FIF, but we do Specialist Colleges and External Institutions. not have total figures for the number of clients advised Source: under that project. Individualised Learner Record Further Education: Wrexham Employment Tribunals Service Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many students from Innovation and Skills what plans he has to streamline Wrexham began attending further education colleges in the employment tribunal system. [15737] England in each of the last five years. [15367] 1099W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1100W

Mr Hayes: Table 1 shows FE participation of learners, (i) regional development agencies and (ii) local economic whose home address is in Wrexham, studying in General partnerships. [15249] Further Education Colleges and all Government funded learners in FE in England from 2004/05 to 2008/09, the Mr Davey: The information is as follows: latest year for which full year data is available. This data (i) The programme budgets given to the regional excludes learners who have moved from Wrexham in development agencies (RDAs) for 2010-11 are as follows: order to attend a Government funded FE provider in England. £ million Data for 2005/06 onwards are based on geographic Of which: administration boundaries as of May 2010. The figure for 2004/05 is RDA Budget (a) costs (b) based on an earlier geographic boundary therefore the figure for 2004/05 is not directly comparable to later years. Advantage West Midlands 163 22 Table 1: FE participation of learners from Wrexham local authority in East of England Development 78 15 General Further Education Colleges and all FE provision in England Agency from 2004/05 to 2008/09 East Midlands Development 95 17 General FE College All FE provision Agency London Development Agency 275 37 2004/05 900 900 North West Development 234 34 2005/06 900 900 Agency 2006/07 500 600 One NorthEast 186 25 2007/08 500 600 South East England 96 20 2008/09 400 500 Development Agency Notes: South West of England 115 21 1. All figures are rounded to the nearest 100. Regional Development Agency 2. The figure for 2004/05 is not directly comparable to later years as it Yorkshire Forward 174 22 is based on a different geographic boundary. 3. Figures for 2008/09 are not directly comparable with earlier years (ii) No estimate has been made yet of the capital and due to a change in funding methodology. annual running costs of the local economic partnerships 4. Local authority data is based upon the home postcode of the (LEPs). learner. 5. Further Education Provision includes General Further Education Unemployment: Young People Colleges including Tertiary, Sixth Form Colleges, Special College— Agricultural and Horticultural Colleges and Art and Design Colleges, Specialist Colleges and External Institutions. Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Source: Business, Innovation and Skills how many people aged Individualised Learner Record (a) between 16 and 24 and (b) between 18 and 24 years Higher Education: Standards resident in Milton Keynes are not in education, employment or training. [15443] Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Hayes: The following table shows the number and Innovation and Skills what requirements higher education proportion of 16 to 24-year-olds1 Milton Keynes local institutions have to meet to have the word university in authority in 2009 not in education, employment or their title. [15272] training. 1 Age used is respondents academic age, which is defined as their Robert Neill: I have been asked to reply. age at the preceding 31 August. We are currently considering the future arrangements for running European regional development fund Milton Keynes Number/proportion programmes in the regions, after the abolition of the Number 5,000 regional development agencies, and we will make an Percentage of all 16 to 24-year-olds 17 announcement when the decision has been reached. 95% confidence interval +/-7% Members: Correspondence This information is from the Annual Population Survey, which covers the period January to December of each Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for year, with 2009 being the most recent estimate available. Business, Innovation and Skills when he plans to reply The Annual Population Survey is the only available to the letter of 1 June 2010 from the right hon. Member source of data with a sample large enough to provide for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Eleanor local authority estimates of the number of young people Massey, transferred from the Department of Work and up to the age of 24 who are NEET. However, the sample Pensions. [15191] is not large enough to provide estimates for smaller geographies, such as parliamentary constituencies, or to Mr Davey: The Department for Business, Innovation provide local authority estimates for age ranges narrower and Skills responded to this letter 14 September 2010. than 16 to 24. It is important to note that these estimates are subject Regional Development Agencies: Local Enterprise to large sampling variability and should therefore be Partnerships treated with caution and viewed in conjunction with their confidence intervals, which indicate how accurate Karl Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, an estimate is. In this example, a confidence interval of Innovation and Skills what recent estimate he has made +/-7 percentage points means that the true estimate is of the (a) capital and (b) annual running costs of between 10% and 24% in 95% of instances. 1101W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1102W

Quarterly estimates of the number of people aged 16 spent on (a) administration, (b) logistics and transport, to 24 not in education, employment or training (NEET) (c) food items, (d) non-food items and (e) other items derived from the Labour Force Survey are published by in respect of the provision of immediate assistance in the Department for Education. The latest publication humanitarian situations in Africa in each of the last can be found online at three years. [15137] http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/STR/d000950/ index.shtml This includes supplementary tables giving breakdowns Mr Duncan: The Department for International of 18 to 24-year-olds NEET for each region. Development (DFID) spent the following amounts on logistics (including transport), food items, non-food INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT items and other items for humanitarian assistance in Africa in the last three financial years for which figures Africa: Overseas Aid are available. Aggregated administration costs for implementing partners are not available, but are typically Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for between 7% and 13% of the total costs of delivery of International Development how much his Department assistance.

£ Total DFID humanitarian Food Logistics Non-food items Other funding

2008-09 67,787,000 9,319,000 9,781,000 178,772,000 265,659,000 2007-08 39,447,000 9,806,000 8,800,000 147,419,000 205,472,000 2006-07 52,523,000 10,015,000 7,846,000 166,158,000 236,542,000 Source: DFID Africa Humanitarian Spend Analyses 2006-07, 2007-08 and 2008-09.

Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Duncan: The Department for International International Development how much his Department Development (DFID) provided the following amounts spent on immediate assistance in respect of humanitarian in respect of humanitarian situations in Africa through situations in Africa in each of the last three years; and multilateral organisations, the Red Cross, non-government how much such funding was disbursed (a) as part of a organisations (NGOs) and bilateral aid to country programme directly delivered by his Department, (b) governments, for the last three financial years for which by multilateral organisations, (c) by non-governmental figures are available. Immediate assistance is not provided organisations and (d) through budgetary support given through budgetary support to governments. to host governments in each such year. [15138]

£ Bilateral aid to country Total DFID humanitarian Multilateral organisations Red Cross NGOs governments funding

2008-09 195,012,000 23,544,000 46,981,000 122,000 265,659,000 2007-08 116,637,000 19,866,000 68,969,000 0 205,472,000 2006-07 169,877,000 16,598,000 50,067,000 0 236,542,000 Source: DFID Africa Humanitarian Spend Analyses 2006-07, 2007-08 and 2008-09.

Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Duncan: The annual monetary value of the contract International Development how much his Department held by the Department for International Development spent on (a) tarpaulins and tents, (b) mosquito nets, (DFID) with Crown Agents for emergency and (c) blankets, (d) kitchen sets, (e) hygiene/first aid kits, humanitarian relief services is £1,855,200. None of this (f) water purification products, (g) buckets and other amount has been spent on projects in Africa in the last water carriers and (h) stoves for immediate use in three years, The contracted services have been used humanitarian situations in Africa in each of the last extensively during the last three years in DFID responses three years. [15139] to disasters in Myanmar, Indonesia, Haiti, Pakistan and elsewhere. Departmental Chief Scientific Advisers Mr Duncan: The requested information cannot be provided without incurring disproportionate cost. Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development on how many occasions each Minister in his Department has met his Department’s Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for Chief Scientific Officer since 6 May 2010. [15353] International Development what the annual monetary value is of the contract held by his Department with Mr O’Brien: The Department for International Crown Agents in respect of the delivery of emergency Development’s (DFID’s) chief scientific adviser has and humanitarian relief services; and what proportion met with the Secretary of State seven times, the Minister of that amount was spent on projects in Africa in each of State once and has had nine meetings with myself, of the last three years. [15225] since the 6 May 2010. 1103W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1104W

Departmental Empty Property Mr Duncan: The Department for International Development (DFID) aims to ensure sustainable control Matthew Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for and management of pneumonia, and other infectious International Development how much his Department diseases, by strengthening country’s health services and spent on vacant properties in each year since 1997. their capacity to deliver interventions such as prevention, [13022] diagnosis and treatment of diseases. In addition to increasing the quality and supply of services, DFID Mr O’Brien: The Department for International works closely with governments and other partners to Development (DFID) has not spent anything on vacant make sure that these services reach the poor and vulnerable. properties in the UK from 1997 to the present date. We provide support for this through our country DFID has had no vacant properties in the UK during programmes, and through our funding to multilateral this period. organisations and global funding instruments such as the World Bank, and the Global Fund to fight AIDS, The requested information cannot be provided for TB and Malaria. DFID’s overseas properties without incurring disproportionate cost. DFID has not hitherto held central DFID supports the Global Alliance for Vaccines and records of our overseas estates. We are currently in the Immunisation (GAVI)to deliver vaccination programmes process of developing a central information management and the pneumococcal Advance Market Commitment system that will capture this information. (AMC), which provides an incentive for pharmaceutical companies to develop and manufacture a pneumococcal Developing Countries: Poverty vaccine that is highly effective in developing countries. As with all multilateral aid, this commitment is being assessed under the Multilateral Aid Review. Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what steps his Department DFID is also developing a business plan to accelerate is taking to assist developing country authorities in the its work on maternal and newborn health, including collection of poverty data classified by indigenous and exclusive breast feeding, maternal nutrition and the prevention of mother to child HIV transmission. other ethnic groups. [15004]

Mr O’Brien: The collection of poverty data plays an important role in efforts to achieve the Millennium CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Development Goals. The Department for International Broadband Development (DFID) already provides considerable support to developing countries in this area, and is the largest Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for bilateral donor to statistical capacity building. The Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) what targets he Department works directly with national authorities in has for rollout of superfast broadband; and if he will country, and through international agencies (including make a statement; [14240] the World Bank, and United Nations) to support the collection of reliable and relevant data, including poverty (2) how much funding for superfast broadband he data disaggregated by indigenous and other ethnics estimates will be provided from (a) the television groups. licence fee and (b) the landline levy; [14241] (3) what plans he has for a review of business rates Overseas Aid: Pneumonia for telecommunications networks; and if he will make a statement; [14265] Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State (4) in which year he expects 90 per cent. of UK for International Development how much aid his households to be within reach of next generation Department has allocated to tackling pneumonia in broadband; [14266] each of the last five years. [15000] (5) how much funding he plans to allocate to support universal access to basic broadband in each financial Mr O’Brien: The Department for International year from 2012-13 to 2014-15; [14267] Development (DFID) does not provide targeted funds (6) how much funding he has allocated to each of the for tackling pneumonia to developing countries. DFID three pilots of superfast broadband to take place in the supports work on tackling pneumonia through our next three years; [14268] support to the health sector, but we do not monitor the (7) in which financial year he expects funding from proportion of this support used specifically for this the television licence fee to be first available for purpose. UK aid is increasing the capacity of health provision of superfast broadband. [14269] systems to diagnose and treat all major causes of illness, including pneumonia, through our support to national Mr Vaizey: The Government have set a clear target health systems, international partnerships and organisations that the UK should have the best superfast broadband and research. network in Europe by 2015. We intend to achieve this first through public policy and regulatory interventions World Health Assembly: Pneumonia and then if needed public spending. We have made no specific estimate of when 90% coverage will be reached. Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State Business rates for telecommunications networks are for International Development what plans his set by the independent Valuation Office Agency (VOA). Department has to implement the World Health I welcome the recent publication by the VOA of new Assembly resolution on pneumonia; and if he will guidance on the rating of telecommunications networks, make a statement. [14999] which should make the rating system more transparent. 1105W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1106W

£200 million from the Digital Switchover help scheme here to stay. Due to the changes we are making to the underspend will be set aside to deliver the USC and National Lottery, funding for film will increase In 2011, superfast pilots. The locations and exact allocation to and again in 2012. each area will be announced in due course. A guideline We are currently reassessing how the Government would be an average public sector subsidy of £5-10 million can best support the UK film industry because important per project. challenges are yet to be addressed. We need a stronger, We have made clear that we will consider use of a more sustainable film industry, where better capitalised proportion of the TV licence fee in the next settlement production companies can build on their successes rather period (2013-18) to fund investment in superfast broadband. than remain partly reliant on public subsidy. We need a The amount dedicated to superfast broadband, if any, coherent strategy to ensure that talent can emerge from will be decided in the overall consideration of the across the UK. And we need a more transparent framework licence fee and informed by the condition of the market. that avoids duplication, delivers targeted funding, and reduces regulatory burdens and administrative costs. Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for We are engaging with the industry to discuss how Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) how much he best we can achieve these objectives, where public funding estimates the previous Government’s policy of could best make a difference, and where private funding providing universal access to basic broadband by 2012 could contribute. was underfunded; [14890] Newspaper Press (2) what assessment he has made of the potential contribution of mobile services to delivering universal 1 Mbps broadband. [15201] Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will bring forward Mr Vaizey: We estimate the cost of meeting the proposals to require UK-based newspapers owned by Universal Service Commitment would be at least double people not resident in the UK to display on each issue the funds identified by the previous administration and the name of the country of residence of the newspaper discussions with industry indicate that the shortfall may owner. [14806] be even greater. Mr Davey: I have been asked to reply. Broadband Delivery UK continues to assess the role of mobile services in meeting the Universal Service No. It is entirely reasonable for people of any nationality, Commitment, but has yet to draw conclusions. We and based anywhere in the world, to invest in UK expect that a range of solutions—fixed and wireless newspapers just as it is reasonable for UK nationals and (including satellite)—will be required to meet broadband those resident in the UK to invest in newspaper and objectives. other businesses abroad. A discriminatory measure of the sort proposed would in any case raise issues of compatibility with EU law. Departmental Official Hospitality Sports Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much his Department James Wharton: To ask the Secretary of State for spent on hospitality for events hosted by each Minister Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what the total cost in his Department in July 2010. [15146] to the public purse is of the Talent Identification Programme operated by UK Sport and the English John Penrose: All expenditure on hospitality is made Institute of Sport. [14325] in accordance with published departmental guidance, based on the principles set out in Managing Public Hugh Robertson: The Talent Identification Programme Money. delivered by UK Sport and the English Institute of Hospitality was provided for one event in July. The Sport (EIS) in partnership with National Governing breakdown of this event is as shown in the following Bodies was established in 2007, and the first UK Talent table: Strategy was produced in 2009 following a series of trial talent campaigns. Minister Event Cost (£) The strategy will be implemented over the London cycle, 2009-13, and talent campaigns are now deemed a Ed Vaizey Official function 70 core element of the World Class Performance Programme. The total exchequer costs incurred by UK Sport in Film: Finance respect of the UK Talent Programme are £835,737 as detailed in the following table: Richard Harrington: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will take £ steps to encourage the production of films by British Programme spend on Staff costs for UK producers funded from sources based in Britain; and if UK Talent Programme Talent Programme he will make a statement. [15321] 2007-08 449 61,081 2008-09 10,327 106,267 Mr Vaizey: The Government are committed to 2009-10 515,296 142,317 supporting the UK film industry and the two key Total 526,072 309,665 mechanisms that currently support the film industry—the Source: film tax relief and the dedicated pot of Lottery funding—are UK Sport 1107W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1108W

As a full partner in the UK Talent Programme, EIS John Penrose: I have been asked to reply. allocated part of its core funding received from UK No space has been offered by the Prime Minister to Sport to deliver programme activity. the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Since 2007 the number of specialists in the field of Sport as office accommodation for DCMS staff. talent identification has had to increase to match the scope of, and demand for the programme. The total exchequer costs incurred by EIS in respect DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER of the UK Talent Programme are £770,978 as detailed in the following table: Polling Station: Fraud

£ Graham Evans: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister Programme spend on Staff costs for UK what plans the Government has to introduce a requirement UK Talent Programme Talent Programme to provide proof of identification at polling stations to 2007-08 49,682 66,553 help eliminate voter fraud. [14555] 2008-09 57,659 76,883 2009-10 83,244 127,292 Mr Harper: The Government are committed to ensuring Total 500,250 270,728 the integrity of the electoral process and tackling fraud Source: wherever it arises. We are considering how best to do EIS that and our approach will take into account wider The total cost to the public purse of the UK Talent reforms to registration and voting processes. In particular, Programme is £1,606,715. the Government’s plan to accelerate the introduction of individual voter registration will help protect against Swimming: Concessions fraud by improving the accuracy of the electoral register. Voting Methods Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much his Department Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Deputy Prime estimates will be saved by ending the free swimming Minister if he will bring forward proposals to restrict scheme for children under 16-years-old; what the marginal voting in the House of Commons on matters exclusively cost to the public purse was of operating the scheme; relating to England to hon. Members who represent [15380] and if he will make a statement. constituencies in England. [14892]

Hugh Robertson: A total of £25,951,788 from the Mr Harper: The Coalition programme for government £40 million resource funding allocated for 2010-11 has includes a specific commitment to establish a Commission been saved by ending the Free Swimming Programme to consider the issues raised by the present ability of for the under 16s and over 60s. MPs from the devolved territories to vote on matters for An additional £25 million of capital funding allocated which the devolved Parliament and Assemblies have for the programme in 2010-11 has also been saved. responsibility.

PRIME MINISTER HEALTH Abortion: Health Education Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Prime Minister what Health what guidance his Department issues on the declarations of (a) interests, (b) gifts and (c) hospitality presentation of information about abortion services in were made by special advisers based in No. 10 Downing GP clinics. [15483] street in (i) 2008-09 and (ii) 2009-10. [15056] Anne Milton: The Department has not issued any The Prime Minister: This Government are committed guidance on the presentation of information about to publishing on a quarterly basis details of gifts and abortion services in general practitioner (GP) practices. hospitality received by special advisers. Information for the period 13 May to 31 July 2010 will be published as Providing high-quality information and advice, including soon as it is ready. written information, is an important aspect of care received by women considering an abortion. GPs should Information for previous years was not routinely ensure that women considering a termination are equipped published. with appropriate information, as well as talking through all available options. Departmental Offices Abortion: Human Rights Bob Russell: To ask the Prime Minister what percentage of his Office’s office accommodation he has offered to Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport as what recent discussions he has had with the General office accommodation for staff of that Department; Medical Council on guidance to medical practitioners and when he expects such office accommodation to on conscientious objection to abortion and the become available. [14692] provisions of the Human Rights Act 1998. [14742] 1109W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1110W

Anne Milton: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of Community Hospitals: Finance State has not had any recent discussions with the General Medical Council (GMC) on conscientious objection to abortion. Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much of the Community Hospital The Abortion Act 1967 (as amended) makes provision Fund was unspent at the time of the 2010 General for conscientious objection, allowing medical practitioners Election; whether that money has been carried forward; to make a decision not to participate in treatment by what means community hospitals can obtain funding authorised by the Abortion Act. for new build projects; and if he will make a statement. Medical practitioners that are ethically opposed to [14584] abortion should follow relevant professional guidance. The GMC’s current guidance is clear that medical Mr Simon Burns: The Department earmarked practitioners must not allow any personal views to approximately £250 million over five years through the prejudice their assessment of clinical need, or restrict Community Hospitals Programme Fund. We expect the patient access to care. national health service will use around £225 million of The Government consider the Abortion Act to be this across 27 schemes. Some of the primary care trusts compatible with the Human Rights Act 1998. (PCTs) that were allocated funding were unable to spend it, either because there were unforeseen delays to developing the project, or in one case because the PCT Cancer: Drugs decided that their original plans were no longer the best solution for the local community. Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Secretary of State for The final schemes are due to complete in 2011-12 and Health whether the interim regional panels for cancer the Department is taking these into account as part of treatment will be able to take decisions on the provision the work to inform the current spending review. of drugs relating to exceptional case requests. [14616] For new community hospitals, arrangements for capital funding will be informed by the responses to the White Mr Simon Burns: We have made it clear in guidance Paper consultation. issued to strategic health authorities by the National Health Service Medical Director that existing primary care trust funding routes should be adequately explored General Practitioners before a call is made on strategic health authority funds. A copy of this guidance is available at: Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Health www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/ whether he plans to place restrictions on the nature of Lettersandcirculars/Dearcolleagueletters/DH_117996 contracts into which primary care trusts may enter in the interim period prior to the implementation of GP commissioning. [14803] Cancer: Hertfordshire Mr Simon Burns: Primary care trusts (PCTs) use national Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State health service standard contracts when commissioning for Health if he will estimate the number of patients in services from most providers. The Department is developing Hertfordshire likely to be prescribed with innovative proposals to ensure the smooth transition of contracts cancer drugs in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12 following from PCTs to general practitioner (GP) commissioning the establishment of the interim Cancer Drug Fund. consortia. [14991] Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Simon Burns: The Department has no plans to Health what procedures will be used to transfer assets make such estimates. We will consult shortly on plans of primary care trusts and strategic health authorities for the establishment of the cancer drugs fund from to GP consortia. [15387] April 2011 so that patients, clinicians and the wider national health service can input into its design. Mr Simon Burns: The White Paper ‘Equity and Excellence: Liberating the NHS’, which was published Colic: Osteopathy on 12 July 2010, announced that strategic health authorities will be abolished and primary care trusts and practice-based commissioners will be replaced by general practitioner Nicky Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for consortia. Health what recent representations he has received on the use of osteopathy to treat infant colic. [15291] Arrangements for the future ownership and management of their operational and administrative estates will be Anne Milton: The Department received two letters announced in due course. from a member of public in August 2010 and we replied with the following: General Practitioners: Finance Some health professionals apply chiropractic spinal manipulation for treating infant colic. However, a recent review of chiropractic spinal manipulation for infantile colic by the Centre for Reviews Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for and Dissemination accessible through NHS Evidence states the Health what mechanism he plans to introduce for the available evidence failed to demonstrate the effectiveness of spinal allocation of funds by NHS commissioning boards to manipulation in infantile colic. GP consortia. [14611] 1111W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1112W

Mr Simon Burns: The White Paper ‘Equity and and the Mental Health Specialist Collection Excellence: Liberating the NHS’, sets out the Government’s www.library.nhs.uk/mentalhealth intention that the NHS Commissioning Board will be with the most up-to-date, quality-assured evidence about the responsible for allocating national health service revenue conditions. resources to general practitioner (GP) consortiums on the basis of seeking to secure equivalent access to NHS With regard to training, the content of curriculum services relative to the burden of disease and disability and quality and standard of training for medical professions and managing an overall NHS commissioner revenue is the responsibility of the appropriate professional limit. regulatory body. The content and standard of medical training is the responsibility of the General Medical The Government intend to use the forthcoming Health Council (GMC), which is the competent authority for Bill to enact the statutory provisions required to achieve medical training in the United Kingdom. The GMC is these objectives. an independent professional body. General Practitioners: Rural Areas The content and standard of postgraduate medical training is also the responsibility of the GMC since the Postgraduate Medical Education and Training Board Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Secretary of State for merged with the GMC on 1 April 2010. Curricula are Health whether GP commissioners in rural areas will developed by the medical royal colleges. be able to form clusters with other GP commissioners across county boundaries. [14618] Continuing professional development needs of doctors are determined by regulatory requirements and local Mr Simon Burns: General practitioner (GP) consortia national health service priorities, through appraisal processes will be statutory public bodies with powers and and training needs analyses informed by local delivery responsibilities set out through primary and secondary plans and the needs of the service. legislation. However, whilst it is not practicable or desirable for The NHS Commissioning Board will have a duty to the Government to prescribe the exact training that any ensure comprehensive coverage of GP consortia across individual doctor will receive we are aware of the need the country and will only authorise consortia once it is to ensure perceived areas of weakness in training curricula satisfied that they have the necessary arrangements and are addressed. For that reason, we are liaising with the capacity to fulfil their statutory duties and accountabilities Regulators and the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges and that there is clarity about the geographical areas about how best to ensure curricula do meet requirements. that they cover. GP consortia will need to have boundaries that interlock so that taken together they cover the entire country. We Genetically Modified Organisms: Crops propose that they have the flexibility within the legislative framework, subject to having sufficient geographic focus, to form consortia in ways that they think will secure the Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State best health care and health outcomes for their patients for Health what recent surveys the Food Standards and locality. Agency has commissioned or conducted on public views on genetically-modified crops; what the cost to the Consortia are likely to carry out a number of public purse was of each such survey; and if he will commissioning activities themselves. In other cases they make a statement. [14431] may choose to act collectively, for instance by adopting a lead commissioner model to negotiate and monitor contracts with large hospital trusts or with urgent care Anne Milton: The Food Standards Agency funded a providers. series of questions on food technologies, including genetically modified foods, as part of the 2008 British General Practitioners: Training Social Attitudes (BSA) Survey. The total cost of this work, of which genetic modification was only a part, was £89.590. Following from this survey, the agency Paul Uppal: To ask the Secretary of State for Health commissioned qualitative research into public attitudes what steps his Department is taking to ensure all GPs among groups of people who had expressed differing (a) (b) have access to adequate information and views on genetically modified food in the BSA Survey. training on care for patients with eating disorders. The cost of this work was £73,654.50. The results of [14685] these projects are available from the Agency’s website. Mr Burstow: General practitioners have access to a www.food.gov.uk/science/socsci/ssres/crosscutss/ number of sources of information about the diagnosis foodtechbsa08 and treatment of eating disorders. These include the Since 2001, the Agency has conducted quarterly ″tracker″ National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence surveys that monitor changes in consumer attitudes guidance on Eating Disorders, published in 2004 at: towards a range of issues. These include questions www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/live/10932/29218/29218.pdf about the level of public concern about a wide range of NHS Choices food issues, including genetic modification. However, genetic modification is only a minor component of www.nhs.uk these surveys, details of which are available at: which offers extensive information on eating disorders including diagnosis, treatment and local services; www.food.gov.uk/science/socsci/surveys/publictrackingsurvey NHS Evidence which offers both search facilities The last tracker survey, published in March 2010, has www.evidence.nhs.uk been placed in the Library. 1113W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1114W

Health Centres Health Services: Voluntary Organisations

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Dr Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what his policy is on the future of existing polyclinics; what arrangements his Department has made to record and if he will make a statement. [15280] responses to the recent NHS White Paper from health charities. [14745] Mr Simon Burns: Our overarching principle is that commissioning decisions should, wherever possible, Mr Simon Burns: A Government response to the reflect the views of local clinicians and the local public. feedback received on the White Paper and associated Under the proposals set out in our NHS White Paper: consultation documents will be published in due course, “Equity and Excellence: Liberating the NHS”, an in accordance with the Government’s Code of Practice NHS Commissioning Board will be responsible for on Consultation. This response will set out what decisions commissioning primary care services for registered patients, have been taken in light of the responses that have been while general practitioner (GP) consortia will be responsible submitted to the consultation. for commissioning urgent care. The responses to the consultation on “Commissioning Health Visitors: Recruitment for Patients”, as part of the wider proposed changes in the White Paper, will enable us to proceed to set out the Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for full details of how GP-led commissioning will work. We Health by what date he expects to have completed the urge anyone who has any concerns to respond to the recruitment of the additional 4,200 Sure Start health consultation by 11 October. visitors foreseen in the Coalition Agreement. [13869]

Health Services Anne Milton [holding answer 8 September 2010]: The Coalition Agreement pledges to increase the number of Dr Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Sure Start health visitors by 4,200. We have begun an what plans he has to publish the content of feedback extensive programme of work to enable us to increase forms submitted during consultation workshops on the capacity as quickly as possible. This will be in parallel NHS White Paper. [14750] with work to develop outcome measures in line with government policy for improving and demonstrating Mr Simon Burns: A Government response to the improvements in health. feedback received on the White Paper and associated consultation documents will be published in due course, Lister Hospital in accordance with the Government’s Code of Practice on Consultation. This response will set out what decisions Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State have been taken in light of the views that have been for Health what (a) procedures and (b) timetable he received through feedback forms and other channels. intends to adopt for his Department’s decision on There is no requirement for respondents to use a specific Stage 4 of the redevelopment of the Lister Hospital, feedback form and comments are being submitted in a Stevenage, relating to accident and emergency services; variety of formats. and if he will make a statement. [14990]

Health Services: Children Mr Simon Burns: This is a local issue. Discussions are ongoing between NHS East of England, Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for East and North Hertfordshire NHS trust, Hertfordshire Health what assessment he has made of the likely primary care trust and local general practitioners in effects of the proposed changes to the healthcare determining the next steps for stage four of the commissioning process on those with the most complex redevelopment of the Lister hospital. health needs, with particular reference to children with (a) autism and (b) mental health problems. [14821] We expect all reconfiguration schemes to be informed by local decisions, driven by clinical professionals, and Mr Simon Burns: The Department published “Liberating grounded in firm clinical evidence, recognising the views the NHS: Commissioning for patients” on 22 July 2010 of the community as laid down in the guidance from Sir which set out the intended arrangements for general David Nicholson, the chief executive of the national practitioner Commissioning and the NHS Commissioning health service on 29 July 2010. Board. A copy has already been placed in the Library. We are engaging on these proposals and consulting on Mental Health Services specific questions highlighted in the document, including child and adolescent mental health services. Dr Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Health on Primary care professionals coordinate all the services what dates Ministers in his Department have met (a) that patients receive, helping them to navigate the system mental health charities and (b) other health charities and ensure that they get the best care. For this reason to discuss the NHS White Paper. [14746] they are best placed to coordinate the commissioning of care for their patients while involving all other clinical Mr Burstow: Since the publication of the White Paper, professionals who are also part of any pathway to Ministers have met with mental and other health charities achieve more integrated delivery of care, higher quality, on the following dates. Ministers have also been to better patient experience and more efficient use of national various events and visits and spoken to charities about health service resources. the White Paper on an informal basis. 1115W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1116W

two week full-time course which includes mandatory Date of event (2010) Event/meeting written and practical assessments. Clinical staff also 13 July Cancer stakeholder meeting. Various complete a four day clinical module, which comprises organisations present. further written and practical assessment. After the initial 14 July Macmillan Cancer meeting. training, call advisers and clinicians begin taking calls, 21 July Voluntary Sector Sounding Board. under supervision. Approximately six weeks after the Various organisations present. initial training, staff undertake a further one day course, 26 July National Stakeholder Forum. Various during which their competence is assessed. organisations present. 26 July Cancer Research UK meeting 27 July Mental Health Stakeholder, future vision NHS Direct coalition. Various organisations present. 4 August Stroke Association Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 9 September Neurological Alliance how many people in (a) England, (b) West Midlands, 14 September Social Care Reference Group. Various (c) Dudley borough and (d) Dudley North organisations present. constituency used the NHS Direct service in each year 14 September National Advisory Group on Offender Health. Various organisations present. since 2000. [15118]

New Cross Hospital Wolverhampton: Nurses Mr Simon Burns: The information is not available in the format requested. Such information as is available is in the following tables. Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many nurses there were at New Cross Hospital in Number of calls to NHS Direct 0845 46 47 Wolverhampton (a) in 1997 and (b) on the latest date National for which information is available. [13376] 2000 — 2001 — Anne Milton: This information is only collected at 2002 1,242,966 NHS trust level. New Cross Hospital is the only hospital 2003 5,256,329 managed by The Royal Wolverhampton Hospitals NHS Trust. Information on the number of qualified nursing, 2004 5,299,298 midwifery and health visiting staff at The Royal 2005 5,484,724 Wolverhampton Hospitals NHS Trust is shown in the 2006 5,226,425 following table: 2007 2008 2009 Number National 4,738,762 5,021,768 4,997,216 As at 30 As at 30 As at 31 May September 19971 September 20091 20102 West Midlands 356,994 419,689 441,588 strategic health 978 1,619 1,489 authority (SHA) 1 The NHS Information Centre for health and social care Non-Medical Dudley primary care 24,621 25,410 26,612 Workforce Census. trust (PCT) 2 Provisional Monthly NHS Hospital and Community Health Service Source: Workforce Statistics. NHS Direct The data includes calls to NHS Directs 0845 46 47 NHS line. It does not include other calls to services provided to national and local commissioners, including calls to Dr Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the appointments line and locally commissioned services what arrangements his Department has made to log such as dental and out-of-hours services. local authority responses to the NHS White Paper. No data is available for 2000 and 2001. Data for West [15216] Midlands SHA and Dudley PCT is available from 2007 onwards. Data is not collected at borough and constituency Mr Simon Burns: A Government response to the level. feedback received on the White Paper and associated consultation documents will be published in due course, in accordance with the Government’s Code of Practice Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health on Consultation. This response will set out what decisions what consultation his Department held with (a) medical have been taken in light of the responses that have been professionals, (b) trade unions and (c) the public on submitted to the consultation. the decision to replace the NHS Direct service with the 111 service. [15119] NHS 111 Mr Simon Burns: The Department conducted research Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health with the public on the concept of 111 in November what training and qualifications NHS 111 staff will be 2008, as well as separate research on the most appropriate required to have. [15122] number to use, and the cost of calling 111 in April 2009, copies of which have been placed in the Library. Mr Simon Burns: NHS 111 is staffed by non-clinical Ofcom also consulted on the use of 111 for the call advisers, trained to the same standards as 999 purpose of non-emergency health access in summer operators, and nurse advisers. All staff attend an initial 2009, which received over 200 responses from a number 1117W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1118W of medical professionals and Royal Colleges, as well as NHS: Temporary Employment members of the public. A copy of Ofcom’s final response has been placed in the Library. Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department is piloting the 111 service in the Health how much the National Health Service has North East now and further pilots are planned for later spent on the employment of temporary contract staff this year. The evaluation of 111 will include a survey in each of the last three financial years. [14641] looking at people’s experience of using the service. Ministers and departmental officials regularly meet Mr Simon Burns: The following table shows how with stakeholders to discuss plans to implement 111. much the national health service has spent on non-NHS staff (agency) in each of the last three financial years. Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what proportion of (a) current NHS Direct staff are Non-NHS staff spend trained nurses and (b) NHS staff will be trained (£ million) nurses. [15120] 2007-08 1,207 2008-09 1,895 Mr Simon Burns: Of NHS Direct’s frontline staff, 2009-10 1— 48% are trained nurses. 1 Not currently available Note: In the current 111 pilot site in County Durham and A figure for 2009-10 is not currently available, as the 2009-10 Financial Darlington, 38% of staff are trained nurses, although Returns data are subject to internal review and potential resubmissions. the appropriate skill-mix of the 111 service will be Source: determined, in due course, by the formal evaluation we Trust, Primary Care Trust and Strategic Health Authority Financial have commissioned. Returns and Monitor consolidated accounts for Foundation Trusts

Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health North West London Hospitals NHS Trust what training and qualifications NHS Direct staff are required to have. [15121] Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will grant North West London Hospitals NHS Mr Simon Burns: Call handlers at NHS Direct are Trust further funding for health and safety repairs; and either non-clinical health advisers or nurse advisers. if he will make a statement. [15281] Health advisers undergo two weeks of classroom-based training and a further two weeks of taking calls under management supervision. Nurse advisers complete a Mr Simon Burns: Departmental officials are working four week classroom-based training period, followed by closely with the London Strategic Health Authority a four week period during which they take calls under (SHA) to identify the most appropriate financing solution clinical supervision. All nurse advisers must be Registered for the health and safety repairs required at North West Nurses (Nursing and Midwifery Council) with post London Hospitals NHS Trust, and we expect to reach a registration experience. conclusion by the end of September 2010. Departmental officials have been assured by the SHA that the short term financing can be managed locally, while this long term financing solution is put in place. NHS: Lobbying

Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Obesity: Surgery Health what guidance is provided to NHS bodies on subscribing to lobbying organisations. [15314] Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many surgical procedures of each type to Mr Simon Burns: Guidance on subscribing to lobbying treat obesity in patients under the age of 18 years were organisations is not provided to national health service carried out on the NHS in (a) England and (b) bodies. Nottinghamshire Primary Care Trust in each of the last five years. [14783]

NHS: Social Enterprises Anne Milton: There were no bariatric surgeries carried out in Nottingham County primary care trust of residence Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health between 2004-05 and 2008-09 among those aged under whether private sector organisations will receive payment 18. from NHS funds for providing mentoring assistance to Count of finished consultant episodes1 with a primary diagnosis of social enterprise and public service mutuals undertaking obesity2 who had ‘bariatric surgery’3 by type of surgery among those national health service work. [14815] aged under 18 in England, 2004-05 to 2008-09 Activity in English NHS hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Mr Burstow: There is no specific policy to support Gastric Gastric Stomach Gastric public sector organisations in this way. However bypass band stapling bubble organisations setting up social enterprises or existing social enterprises may apply for funding through the 2008-09 8 3 2 0 Social Enterprise Investment Fund and if eligible this 2007-08 2 4 0 0 may include funds for mentoring services. 2006-07 2 0 0 0 1119W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1120W

Count of finished consultant episodes1 with a primary diagnosis of obesity2 who had ‘bariatric surgery’3 by type of surgery among those Gastric Bypass codes OPCS 4.2 aged under 18 in England, 2004-05 to 2008-09 G27.1—Total gastrectomy and excision of surrounding tissue G27.2—Total gastrectomy and anastomosis of oesophagus to duodenum Activity in English NHS hospitals and English NHS commissioned G27.3—Total gastrectomy and interposition of jejunum activity in the independent sector G27.4—Total gastrectomy and anastomosis of oesophagus to transposed jejunum G27.5—Total gastrectomy and anastomosis of oesophagus to jejunum nec G27.8—Other specified total excision of stomach Gastric Gastric Stomach Gastric G27.9—Unspecified total excision of stomach bypass band stapling bubble G28.1—Partial gastrectomy and anastomosis of stomach to duodenum G28.2—Partial gastrectomy and anastomosis of stomach to transposed jejunum G28.3—Partial gastrectomy and anastomosis of stomach to jejunum nec 2005-06 2 0 0 0 G28.8—Other specified partial excision of stomach G28.9—Unspecified partial excision of stomach 2004-05 0 0 0 1 G31.1—Bypass of stomach by anastomosis of oesophagus to duodenum G31.2—Bypass of stomach by anastomosis of stomach to duodenum G31.3—Revision of anastomosis of stomach to duodenum Notes: G31.4—Conversion to anastomosis of stomach to duodenum HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. Changes to the G31.8—Other specified connection of stomach to duodenum figures over time need to be interpreted in the context of improvements G31.9—Unspecified connection of stomach to duodenum in data quality and coverage (particularly in earlier years). In particular G31.0—Conversion from previous anastomosis of stomach to duodenum improvements in how ‘bariatric surgery’ is coded, with the introduction G32.1—Bypass of stomach by anastomosis of stomach to transposed jejunum of new codes in various versions of the Office of Population, Censuses G32.2—Revision of anastomosis of stomach to transposed jejunum G32.3—Conversion to anastomosis of stomach to transposed jejunum and Surveys (OPCS), growth due to better recording of procedures G32.8—Other specified connection of stomach to transposed jejunum should not be misinterpreted as growth solely due to increases in G32.9—Unspecified connection of stomach to transposed jejunum activity. G32.0—Conversion from previous anastomosis of stomach to transposed These data should not be described as a count of people as the same jejunum person may have been admitted on more than one occasion. Also it is G33.1—Bypass of stomach by anastomosis of stomach to jejunum nec not possible to get a total ‘bariatric surgery’ figure from this data, as G33.2—Revision of anastomosis of stomach to jejunum nec adding the types of ‘bariatric surgery’ together may include double G33.3—Conversion to anastomosis of stomach to jejunum nec counting, as a patient may have more than one type of ‘bariatric G33.8—Other specified other connection of stomach to jejunum G33.9—Unspecified other connection of stomach to jejunum surgery’ within the same year. G33.0—Conversion from previous anastomosis of stomach to jejunum nec 1 Finished Consultant Episode (FCE) From April 2006 additional OPCS-4.3 codes were added: A finished consultant episode (FCE) is a continuous period of admitted G28.4—Sleeve gastrectomy and duodenal switch patient care under one consultant within one healthcare provider. G28.5—Sleeve gastrectomy NEC FCEs are counted against the year in which they end. Figures do not G31.5—Closure of connection of stomach to duodenum represent the number of different patients, as a person may have more G31.6—Attention to connection of stomach to duodenum than one episode of care within the same stay in hospital or in G32.4—Closure of connection of stomach to transposed jejunum different stays in the same year. G32.5—Attention to connection of stomach to transposed jejunum 2 G33.5—Closure of connection of stomach to jejunum NEC Primary diagnosis G33.6—Attention to connection of stomach to jejunum The primary diagnosis is the first of up to 20 (14 from 2002-03 to G71.6—Duodenal switch 2006-07 and seven prior to 2002-03) diagnosis fields in the HES data Gastric Band set and provides the main reason why the patient was admitted to Gastric band procedures may include the insertion, removal or adjustment of hospital. the gastric band. ICD-10 code used: OPCS-4.2—There were no specific codes for gastric banding procedures in E66—Obesity OPCS-4.2. 3 Number of episodes with a (named) main or secondary procedure OPCS-4.3 and OPCS-4.4 Insertion of a gastric band The number of episodes where the procedure (or intervention) was G30.3—Partitioning of stomach using band recorded in any of the 24 (12 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and four prior Removal of a gastric band to 2002-03) procedure fields in a HES record. A record is only G38.7—Removal of gastric band included once in each count, even if the procedure is recorded in more Adjustment of gastric band than one procedure field of the record. Note that more procedures are G30.8—Other specified plastic operations on stomach carried out than episodes with a main or secondary procedure. For Y03.6—Adjustment to prosthesis in organ noc example, patients under going a ‘cataract operation’ would tend to Additional OPCS-4.5 code: have at least two procedures - removal of the faulty lens and the fitting G30.5—Maintenance of gastric band Stomach stapling of a new one—counted in a single episode. OPCS-4.2 codes for ‘stomach stapling’ are: See clinical codes sheet for OPCS codes used for ‘bariatric surgery’. G30.2—Partitioning of stomach Data quality Y26.3—Stapling of organ noc HES are compiled from data sent by more than 300 NHS trusts and Both codes are necessary and need to be recorded in the order shown above, primary care trusts (PCTs) in England and from some independent with Y26.3 directly following G30.2. sector organisations for activity commissioned by the English NHS. OPCS-4.3, OPCS-4.4 and 4.5 has a dedicated code for ‘stomach stapling’, which The NHS Information Centre for health and social care liaises closely did not previously exist in OPCS-4.2: with these organisations to encourage submission of complete and G30.4—Partitioning of stomach using staples Gastric bubble (also known as gastric balloon) valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies. While this brings about OPCS-4.2/4.3/4.4/4.5 improvement over time, some shortcomings remain. G48.1—Insertion of gastric bubble Strategic Health Authority (SHA)/PCT of residence G48.2—Attention to gastric bubble The SHA or PCT containing the patient’s normal home address. This Source: does not necessarily reflect where the patient was treated as they may Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), The NHS Information Centre for health and have travelled to another SHA/PCT for treatment. social care. Assessing growth through time HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. Changes to the figures over time need to be interpreted in the context of improvements in data quality and coverage (particularly in earlier years), improvements Prescriptions: Fees and Charges in coverage of independent sector activity (particularly from 2006-07) and changes in NHS practice. For example, apparent reductions in activity may be due to a number of procedures which may now be Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for Health undertaken in outpatient settings and so no longer include in admitted what research his Department has (a) commissioned, patient HES data. (b) evaluated and (c) undertaken on the operation of Activity included Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned (a) prescription charges, (b) the Prescription Pricing activity in the independent sector Authority and (c) the NHS Choices website since May Bariatric Surgery OPCS codes 2010. [14773] 1121W Written Answers15 SEPTEMBER 2010 Written Answers 1122W

Mr Simon Burns: In the period 12 May to 10 September community services’, published in February 2010, sets 2010, the Department has not commissioned research out the assurance and approvals process and a set of on the operation of prescription charges or the NHS national tests for strategic health authorities (SHAs) to Prescription Services. Professor Sir Ian Gilmore’s review use when considering primary care trust (PCT) proposals. of a prescription charge exemption for people with long The ‘Revision to the Operating Framework for the term conditions was published on 27 May 2010. The NHS in England 2010/11’, published in June 2010, Department routinely evaluates research published by reiterated the principle that separating PCT commissioning many sources. from the provision of services is a priority, and must be Capita Business Services is contracted to manage achieved by April 2011. NHS Choices, and has in the same period, commissioned We want people to be able to make informed decisions six surveys on behalf of NHS Choices. about their health care, and have a wide range of services available to meet their needs in the community Primary Care Trusts from a range of providers, to drive up quality. The first step to achieve this is to separate out PCT commissioning Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Health from the provision of services. what guidance he has provided to primary care trusts ‘Transforming Community Services: The assurance on the reorganisation of those trusts by 2010; and if he and approvals process for PCT-provided community will make a statement. [15230] services’ and ‘Revision to the Operating Framework for England 2010/11’ have already been placed in the Library Mr Simon Burns: ‘Transforming Community Services: and are also available on the Department’s website at: The assurance and approvals process for PCT-provided www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/index.htm

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 15 September 2010

Col. No. Col. No. NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 863 NORTHERN IRELAND—continued Corporation Tax ...... 868 Saville Inquiry...... 870 Cross-border Economic Co-operation ...... 871 Effects of Recession ...... 866 Paramilitary Organisations ...... 863 PRIME MINISTER ...... 872 Pat Finucane ...... 870 Engagements...... 872 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 15 September 2010

Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 39WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— Horserace Totalisator Board ...... 39WS continued Sino-British Joint Declaration (Hong Kong)...... 46WS DEFENCE...... 40WS INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 47WS Ex-Service Personnel in Prison...... 40WS DFID’s Programme in Bangladesh ...... 47WS Independent Medical Expert Group (Armed Forces Compensation Scheme) ...... 40WS JUSTICE...... 46WS Ofsted Report (Armed Forces Initial Training) ...... 41WS Interpretation and Translation Services (Justice Sector) ...... 46WS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 41WS NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 47WS Informal Energy Council Meeting ...... 41WS Arrangements for Handling National Security (Northern Ireland) ...... 47WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Independent Monitoring Commission (24th AFFAIRS...... 42WS Report) ...... 48WS Bovine Tuberculosis ...... 42WS TRANSPORT ...... 48WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 45WS Equality Act 2010 ...... 48WS Britain’s Values in a Networked World ...... 45WS TREASURY ...... 39WS Court of Justice (Appointment of Lithuanian Savings Accounts and Health in Pregnancy Grant Judge) ...... 46WS Bill ...... 39WS PETITION

Wednesday 15 September 2010

Col. No. Col. No. PRESENTED PETITION Sentences for Causing Death by Dangerous Driving ...... 9P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 15 September 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 1095W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Apprentices...... 1095W Unemployment: Young People...... 1100W Broadband: Kent ...... 1096W Cabinet Committees: Trade...... 1096W CABINET OFFICE...... 1078W Construction: Industry...... 1096W European Year of Volunteering...... 1078W Debts: Advisory Services...... 1096W Industrial Disputes ...... 1079W Employment Tribunals Service...... 1097W Public Sector: Community Benefit Clauses ...... 1081W Further Education: England ...... 1098W Social Enterprises: Tax Allowances...... 1081W Further Education: Wales ...... 1098W Further Education: Wrexham ...... 1098W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 1059W Higher Education: Standards...... 1099W Business Improvement Districts ...... 1059W Members: Correspondence ...... 1099W Council Housing: Finance ...... 1059W Regional Development Agencies: Local Enterprise Council Tax: Tax Rates and Bands ...... 1060W Partnerships...... 1099W Departmental Cleaning Services ...... 1060W Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL continued AFFAIRS...... 1041W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 1060W Departmental Billing ...... 1041W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 1060W Environmental Stewardship Scheme ...... 1041W Domestic Violence: Supporting People EU Law...... 1042W Programme ...... 1061W Tyres ...... 1042W Fire Services...... 1061W Fire Services: Finance ...... 1062W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 1047W Fires: Electric Cables...... 1062W Afghanistan: Politics and Government ...... 1047W Fruit...... 1062W Burma: Elections ...... 1047W Housing Improvements: Disability...... 1062W Dalai Lama...... 1047W Local Enterprise Partnerships...... 1063W European Parliament ...... 1048W Local Government Finance: Wigan ...... 1063W Human Trafficking ...... 1048W Non-domestic Rates...... 1063W Narco-terrorism: Mexico ...... 1048W Planning Inspectorate: Handbooks...... 1064W Referendums ...... 1064W HEALTH...... 1108W Smith Institute ...... 1065W Abortion: Health Education ...... 1108W Thurrock Thames Gateway Development Abortion: Human Rights...... 1108W Corporation...... 1065W Cancer: Drugs...... 1109W Waste Management: Departmental Cancer: Hertfordshire ...... 1109W Responsibilities ...... 1065W Colic: Osteopathy...... 1109W West Northamptonshire Development Corporate: Community Hospitals: Finance ...... 1110W Public Relations ...... 1066W General Practitioners ...... 1110W West Northamptonshire Development General Practitioners: Finance...... 1110W Corporation: Public Relations ...... 1066W General Practitioners: Rural Areas ...... 1111W General Practitioners: Training...... 1111W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 1104W Genetically Modified Organisms: Crops ...... 1112W Broadband ...... 1104W Health Centres ...... 1113W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 1105W Health Services ...... 1113W Film: Finance...... 1105W Health Services: Children...... 1113W Newspaper Press ...... 1106W Health Services: Voluntary Organisations ...... 1114W Sports ...... 1106W Health Visitors: Recruitment ...... 1114W Swimming: Concessions...... 1107W Lister Hospital ...... 1114W Mental Health Services ...... 1114W New Cross Hospital Wolverhampton: Nurses...... 1115W DEFENCE...... 1081W NHS...... 1115W Armed Forces: Boxing ...... 1081W NHS 111 ...... 1115W Armed Forces: Compensation...... 1082W NHS Direct...... 1116W Armed Forces: Drugs...... 1082W NHS: Lobbying...... 1117W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 1083W NHS: Social Enterprises ...... 1117W Armed Forces: Medals...... 1086W NHS: Temporary Employment ...... 1118W Armed Forces: Mental Health ...... 1086W North West London Hospitals NHS Trust...... 1118W Armed Forces: Prosthetics ...... 1087W Obesity: Surgery...... 1118W Armed Forces: Uniforms ...... 1088W Prescriptions: Fees and Charges...... 1120W Armed Offices: Driving...... 1087W Primary Care Trusts...... 1121W Army: Horses...... 1089W Commonwealth: Armed Forces ...... 1089W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 1069W Cyprus ...... 1089W Alcoholic Drinks: Prices ...... 1069W Departmental Television and Film...... 1090W Anti-Semitism...... 1070W Elizabeth Cross ...... 1092W Antisocial Behaviour Orders: Gateshead...... 1070W Germany...... 1092W Antisocial Behaviour Orders: Hyndburn...... 1070W Germany: Armed Forces...... 1092W Antisocial Behaviour: Public Opinion ...... 1070W Gibraltar...... 1093W Asylum ...... 1071W Inside Right Programme ...... 1093W Asylum: Pakistan...... 1071W Military Covenant...... 1093W Borders: Personal Records ...... 1072W Military Exercises ...... 1094W Crime: Theft ...... 1073W Roads: Accidents ...... 1094W Human Trafficking: Children...... 1074W Licensing Laws...... 1075W Members: Correspondence ...... 1075W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 1108W Off-licences ...... 1076W Polling Station: Fraud...... 1108W Passports: Biometrics...... 1076W Voting Methods ...... 1108W Schengen Agreement...... 1077W Terrorism: Intercept Evidence...... 1078W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 1066W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 1078W Energy Supply...... 1066W Greenhouse Gas Emissions...... 1066W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 1039W Greenhouse Gas Emissions: Business...... 1067W Departmental Pay ...... 1039W Power Stations: Offshore Industry ...... 1067W Renewable Energy: Electric Cables...... 1068W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 1101W Wind Power ...... 1068W Africa: Overseas Aid ...... 1101W Wind Power: Noise ...... 1069W Departmental Chief Scientific Advisers ...... 1102W Col. No. Col. No. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—continued TREASURY—continued Departmental Empty Property...... 1103W Charities: Private Education ...... 1043W Developing Countries: Poverty...... 1103W Child Benefit...... 1043W Overseas Aid: Pneumonia ...... 1103W Departmental Electronic Equipment ...... 1043W World Health Assembly: Pneumonia ...... 1103W Departmental Fines ...... 1044W Departmental Internet ...... 1044W JUSTICE...... 1033W Food: Prices ...... 1045W Contracts ...... 1033W Gift Aid ...... 1045W County Courts ...... 1034W Green Investment Bank ...... 1045W Courts: Operating Costs...... 1034W Members: Correspondence ...... 1045W Custodial Treatment: North Wales...... 1034W Tax Allowances: Married People...... 1046W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 1035W VAT: Crown Dependencies ...... 1046W Fixed Penalties: Shoplifting ...... 1036W VAT: Hearing Aids...... 1046W Legal Aid: Families ...... 1036W Welfare Tax Credits...... 1046W Magistrates Courts: Fines ...... 1036W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 1048W Prison Service: Manpower ...... 1037W Child Benefit...... 1059W Prison Service: Training ...... 1037W Child Maintenance and Enforcement Prisoners: Literacy ...... 1037W Commission...... 1048W Prisons: Visits...... 1038W Children: Peterborough...... 1049W Rape...... 1039W Children: Tyne and Wear ...... 1050W TV: Licensing...... 1039W Departmental Billing ...... 1051W Departmental Training ...... 1052W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 1039W Employment: East Lothian ...... 1052W Assembly Constituencies...... 1040W Future Jobs Fund: Washington Tyne and Wear ..... 1053W Big Society ...... 1039W Health and Safety Executive ...... 1053W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 1041W Housing Benefit: Camden...... 1053W Economic Development...... 1040W Housing Benefit: Scotland ...... 1053W Economy...... 1040W Incapacity Benefit: Medical Examinations...... 1054W Parades ...... 1041W Incapacity Benefit: Wimbledon...... 1054W US Investment ...... 1040W Industrial Diseases: Asbestos...... 1055W Jobcentre Plus: Manpower ...... 1055W PRIME MINISTER ...... 1107W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Gateshead...... 1055W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 1107W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Wolverhampton...... 1055W Departmental Offices...... 1107W Means-tested Benefits ...... 1056W Security...... 1056W TREASURY ...... 1042W Social Security Benefits: Disqualification...... 1057W Bereavement Allowance ...... 1042W Social Security Benefits: Medical Examinations..... 1058W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Wednesday 15 September 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 863] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Prime Minister

Individual Electoral Registration [Col. 883] Statement—(Mr Harper)

Saving Accounts and Health in Pregnancy [Col. 902] Bill presented, and read the First time

Financial Services (Regulation of Deposits and Lending) [Col. 903] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Mr Carswell)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Ways and Means [Col. 906] Motion—(Mr Gauke)—agreed to Resolutions agreed to

Identity Documents Bill [Col. 912] Programme motion agreed to Not amended, further considered; read the Third time and passed

Petition [Col. 970]

Military Aviation Industry [Col. 971] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Criminal Bar (Public Funding) [Col. 245WH] Rail Services (Enfield) [Col. 267WH] Diabetes (Young People) [Col. 275WH] Inter-city Express Programme [Col. 298WH] Fresh Produce Procurement (Prisons) [Col. 307WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 39WS]

Petition [Col. 9P]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 1033W] [see index inside back page]