Tuesday Volume 511 15 June 2010 No. 15

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 15 June 2010

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 719 15 JUNE 2010 720

Did he have the probation service in mind? Will the House of Commons Minister give me a categorical assurance that there will be no cut in funding for the probation service, because it Tuesday 15 June 2010 will be impossible to carry out that policy if there is? Mr Blunt: It would be very nice if the country was in The House met at half-past Two o’clock an economic position that allowed me to deliver such a categorical assurance to the hon. Gentleman but, as he knows perfectly well, I am afraid that I cannot do so. PRAYERS He also knows that part of the Ministry of Justice’s contribution to the £6 billion target was a £20 million [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] reduction in the probation service’s budget. However, that budget had been added to by £26 million in mid-year by the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS who is now the shadow Justice Secretary.

CITY OF WESTMINSTER BILL [LORDS] Mary Creagh: Wakefield is home to two prisons: New Motion made, Hall young offenders institution and women’s prison, That so much of the Lords Message [10 June] as relates to the and, of course, Wakefield prison, which houses some of City of Westminster Bill [Lords] be now considered.—(The First the country’s most dangerous and prolific offenders. Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.) West Yorkshire probation service, and Wakefield in particular, do a tremendous job of keeping local people Hon. Members: Object. safe and monitoring those who are released from those To be considered on Thursday 24 June. prisons, who are some of the most difficult individuals in the country. Does the Minister agree that public protection is the No. 1 priority for the probation service BLOODY SUNDAY INQUIRY and that any future funding arrangements must not put Ordered, that at risk? That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, That she will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House a Return of the Report, dated 15 June 2010, of Mr Blunt: Of course public protection is an absolute the Bloody Sunday Inquiry, and of the Principal Conclusions and priority. We inherited good MAPPA—multi-agency Overall Assessment, dated 15 June 2010, of the Bloody Sunday public protection arrangements—from the previous Inquiry.—(Jeremy Wright.) Administration to deal with the sort of offenders who are released from Wakefield. It is right that probation services and all other agencies that are involved in MAPPA are closely engaged in delivering public protection Oral Answers to Questions with regard to such offenders.

Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con): I have visited the probation service in Milton Keynes and JUSTICE pay tribute to its tremendous work. Under the previous Government, however, the number of staff at headquarters The Secretary of State was asked— ballooned, while front-line staff numbers remained static or even reduced. Might this Government reverse that Probation Service trend?

1. Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): What his plans Mr Blunt: Yes. are for the budget for the probation service in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12. [2215] Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): The previous Government refurbished the Ministry of Justice building 7. Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): What plans he at a cost of £130 million shortly before they announced has for the funding of the probation service in 2010-11. redundancies, including to front-line managers, that [2222] saved £50 million. Can the Minister and his team say that this Government will have a better and more The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice responsible set of priorities for spending in his Department? (Mr Crispin Blunt): For 2010-11, the budget for the probation trusts will be £850 million. Budgets for 2011-12 Mr Blunt rose— are not yet set, and will be done through the spending review process to take place later this year. Mr Speaker: Order. On the probation service, Minister.

Hugh Bayley: Last Sunday, on Sky News, the Justice Mr Blunt: I can guarantee that the probation service Secretary said: will not be led by the Ministry of Justice on any further “let’s have fewer people in prison”, refurbishments. I think that we have had enough and that there are refurbishments inside the Department for the time being “some things we can do to stop people re-offending when they and that we have an office that is perfectly fit for come out”. purpose. 721 Oral Answers15 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 722

Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): I welcome the Minister Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): to his post, which is an excellent job that I am sure he Will the Minister undertake to read the excellent report will enjoy. Will he confirm to the House that reoffending drawn up on a cross-party basis by members of the rates fell considerably under the Labour Government, Select Committee on Justice not long before Dissolution, not least because of the 70% increase in probation which proposes a number of ways in which the large funding over those 13 years? Will he also clarify what I amount of resources that go into the criminal justice think he said—that the £870 million budget agreed by system could be focused more effectively on reducing my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) reoffending? in October 2009 is now £850 million? What discussions has he held—and will he hold—with probation services Mr Blunt: Yes. The report is excellent, and it will about the impact of that £20 million cut? inform the proposals that we bring forward when the House returns in October. Mr Blunt: As the right hon. Gentleman pointed out, I have referred to the £20 million cut. The director of the Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Does my National Offender Management Service and the regional hon. Friend accept that it adds insult to injury when a offender managers will be doing their level best, in victim of crime, having seen the perpetrator sentenced, agreement with the probation trusts, to ensure that that finds that the person is released halfway through their reduction does not have an impact on services. However, sentence? What steps will we take to reintroduce honesty we ought to remember that the budget settlement for in sentencing? the probation trusts that was agreed just more than a year ago was £844 million. That budget was being Mr Blunt: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for worked to during the transfer from probation boards to that question, because plainly the proposals that were in probation trusts, and that transfer was supposed to the Conservative manifesto will inform the outcome of drive forward many efficiency savings to ensure that the sentencing review. I am quite sure that he will be front-line services were delivered as efficiently as they satisfied with the outcome, and that we will have a great should be. deal more honesty in sentencing at the end of the process than we have today. Sentencing Policy Prison Capacity

2. Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): What timetable he 3. Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): What has set for the completion of his Department’s review plans he has for prison capacity and prison construction of sentencing policy. [2216] programmes. [2217]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Crispin Blunt): We are conducting a comprehensive (Mr Crispin Blunt): We must provide prison places for assessment of sentencing policy with a view to introducing those whom the courts judge should receive a custodial more effective sentencing and rehabilitation policies. sentence. As I said in answer to my hon. Friend the We will take the time to get it right, and will consult Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry), we intend to bring widely before bringing forward coherent plans for reform. forward proposals on rehabilitation and sentencing after We intend to bring forward proposals on sentencing the House returns in October. Long-term decisions on and the rehabilitation of offenders after the House prison capacity programmes will be taken in the light of returns from recess in October. the policy agreed at the end of the process.

Tony Baldry: Does my hon. Friend agree that the Mr Jones: On 30 January 2007, when asked whether punishment, in being sent to prison, is the loss of we needed more prisons, the Prime Minister said, on the freedom? Does he also agree that what is important is Jon Gaunt “talkSPORT” show: trying to reduce reoffending rates, and ensuring that “Yes…no doubt more prisons have got to be built.” when people are in prison, they undertake activities that How does that fit with the Justice Secretary’s announcement mean that they are less likely to reoffend when they are this week that he would like to see fewer people in released? Alternatively, we might have not so many prison? Is this an example of Opposition rhetoric catching people going to prison, but if they are to be punished in up with the Prime Minister, or is it yet another example the community, that punishment should involve activities of a policy disagreement between the Prime Minister that help to reduce the chances of reoffending. It is and the Justice Secretary? reducing the reoffending rate that is so important. Mr Blunt: Absolutely not. I notice that the date to Mr Blunt: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. We which the hon. Gentleman referred was in 2007, and have inherited a disaster, in terms of the reoffending there certainly has been a significant increase in the rate among short-sentence prisoners. I do not think that prison population between then and today. As far as the anyone would want to defend the reoffending rate in prison building programme is concerned, I draw attention that category, which is somewhere between 60% and to the evidence that the then Justice Secretary and Lord 70%. Prisoners in that category do not receive probation Chancellor gave to the Committee referred to by the supervision, and if we do not engage them with the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth great army of auxiliaries in the third sector who want to (Alun Michael). He said that the prison building help us with offender management, we will not be able programme, as it now stands, is an opportunity to to address offender behaviour in the way that my hon. upgrade and update our prison capacity to make it Friend suggests. more fit for the purpose of addressing reoffending 723 Oral Answers15 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 724 behaviour. If we are successful in bringing about a drop The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice in prisoner numbers—I am quite sure that everyone in (Mr Kenneth Clarke): The proposal to grant anonymity the House would like to see that—we may be able to to defendants in rape trials was included in the coalition release other parts of the estate. agreement following negotiations between the two coalition partners. All the policy commitments made by the Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con): coalition Government were derived from the existing In the context of capacity and overcrowding, what are policy of one or both of the governing parties. The issue the Minister’s views on short sentences, especially for of anonymity for defendants in rape trials was adopted women? as party policy by the Liberal Democrat party while in opposition. It was also the subject of an extensive Mr Blunt: The evidence is that short custodial sentences inquiry by the Home Affairs Committee, in its fifth are not working. They produce terrible reoffending report published on 24 June 2003. rates. We do not have the capacity in the probation service to address people on licence, which is one reason Caroline Flint: I thank the right hon. and learned why they do not have any supervision when they leave Gentleman for his answer. His Minister has indicated prison, and we are on the most dreadful merry-go-round. that he believes the stigma associated with those accused It is one of the glaring gaps in the way that we deal with of rape is so damaging that, uniquely, they need further offenders and reoffending behaviour, and the current protection through anonymity, but evidence shows that Administration will do their level best to address the public are far more hostile to paedophiles and the issue. murderers, so why, on the evidence, does he choose to extend anonymity to those accused of rape?

Libel Law Mr Clarke: There are arguments on both sides of the question, and they have frequently come before the 4. Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East House over the years. The Government think it is right Cleveland) (Lab): What recent discussion he has had on to have a reasonable debate on them. That is one of the reform of libel law. [2219] arguments in favour of anonymity. The argument that I have always thought is the strongest for anonymity is in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice cases in which the victim has anonymity—when there (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): We are committed to reviewing are allegations by children against teachers and others, the law on defamation to protect free speech, and are or allegations made by women or men in rape cases. currently considering the issues involved. In that context, Where the victim is allowed anonymity all the way Lord McNally yesterday met Lord Lester of Herne Hill through, there is a case, which the House has accepted to discuss his private Member’s Bill on the subject, on occasions in the past, for giving anonymity to the which was recently introduced in another place. person who is accused. There are other arguments on both sides of the case. We are not likely to have early legislation on the matter. This was the principal subject Tom Blenkinsop: I am sure the Minister is aware of of debate in 2003 when there was a Bill before the the case of Dr Simon Singh, who was famously sued by House, and it divided all three parties. It is not a matter the British Chiropractic Association for his research. for party political ideology. It is a question that the Although the case was unsuccessful, Mr Singh will House as a whole should consider with care. recover only 70 per cent. of his £200,000 legal costs. Will the Government support Lord Lester’s private Meg Munn: In my experience of working with sex Member’s Bill to reform our libel system, which at offenders, it is extremely unusual for someone to offend present stifles scientific research? on only one occasion. Publicising the name of the person accused often allows other women to come Mr Djanogly: We are considering Lord Lester’s private forward. Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman Member’s Bill. The issues involved in it are complex and look seriously at this evidence, at research that has been of great breadth, so we will look at it carefully and done by the Home Office, and at research to which I respond at a later date. have been directed, by the excellent criminology department at Sheffield university? Rape Defendants (Anonymity) Mr Clarke: As the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt) 5. Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab): What evidence reasonably said in the Adjournment debate, we are he took into account in deciding to bring forward looking at evidence and seeing how many cases are proposals to extend anonymity to defendants in rape multiple offenders, and in what particular cases that trials. [2220] might have led to further complaints and detection, but I point out that 53%—I think that is the figure—of 9. Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): What those accused in serious rape cases are known to the evidence he took into account in deciding to propose to person making the accusation. They are usually ex-partners grant anonymity to defendants charged with rape. or ex-husbands. In those cases, where the person sometimes [2224] gets anonymity if they are the husband, not granting it might betray the identity of the complainant, and sometimes 11. Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland the person accused does not get anonymity, if they are South) (Lab): What evidence was considered before the the partner. There is a perfectly serious case to be made announcement of proposals to introduce anonymity on both sides of the argument, and the coalition agreement for defendants in rape cases. [2226] has contemplated going back to anonymity. I had to 725 Oral Answers15 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 726 look up which way I voted the last time the question The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice was before the House. Other hon. Members would (Mr Kenneth Clarke): The Government totally support probably have to do the same. I voted in favour of the anonymity of rape victims and regard rape as a very anonymity then, but we are now listening to the arguments. serious crime that should be prosecuted in all cases where sufficient evidence exists. There seems to be no Bridget Phillipson: I have worked with victims of reason, however, why a victim should be deterred from sexual violence and know how difficult it is for women complaining because the name of the accused will not to come forward and report offences. The right hon. be immediately publicised. The Government are, however, and learned Gentleman is right that the issue is not prepared to consider all arguments on that or any other about party politics; it is about protecting very vulnerable aspect of the issue. victims of crime. If the Government intend to press ahead with those proposals, will he outline how they intend to encourage women to report rape offences and Kevin Brennan: The point is that the Justice Secretary what measures will be brought forward to drive up the has come before the House and talked about the proposal conviction rate in rape cases, which remains significantly as if he were suggesting perhaps a Green Paper or a lower than it should be? national debate, but it is in his programme of government, and I notice that his Front-Bench team is a Liberal-free Mr Clarke: The Government are committed to providing zone. Does he feel, and will he now admit to the House, up to 15 more rape crisis centres. I agree entirely with that basically he has been sold a pup? the hon. Lady that, obviously, nobody is questioning the long-standing decision that anonymity be given to Mr Clarke: No. I think that it is a serious issue, and, all victims making allegations of rape. It is obviously although I may not have initiated its appearance in the important that everything possible be done to encourage coalition agreement, the hon. Gentleman may gather more women who have suffered from that crime to that I am not averse to the House looking at it again. come forward and seek the prosecution of the perpetrator. There are people who want us to do so, and we will have an opportunity, no doubt in due course, to put it to Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab): I listened Members. I am not responsible for the whipping in the with great care to what the right hon. and learned House, but I suspect that all three parties would rather Gentleman the Secretary of State said about the mystery prefer a fairly free vote on the issue, because I do not of where the policy came from, but can he enlighten the think that there is any consensus in any part of the House as to why, over that weekend of negotiations House, unless I am suddenly told it is—[Interruption.] between the Liberal Democrats and the Conservative The Labour party is looking for new policies, I know, party about the coalition agreement, the matter suddenly but I do not think that it has decided to make this issue became a major priority when it had not been in either the central plank of its much overdue reform. manifesto before? Will he also please tell us how many women were involved in those negotiations? We have said that we are attracted by the argument, and that we will debate it and consider all the arguments Mr Clarke: I was not involved in the negotiations, but produced by Members from all parts of the House. The the policy actually emerged from them. I remind the Prime Minister actually referred Members to the Home hon. Lady that the Liberal Democrat assembly voted in Affairs Committee on which he sat, which on an all-party favour of the policy in 2006, but it did so against a basis recommended anonymity, at least until the time of background of considerable debate. People from all charge, only a few years ago. parts of this House decided to vote for anonymity in 2003, and we recently had a report from Baroness Stern, Katy Clark: I am pleased to hear that there may who I do not think supports anonymity but recommended be a free vote on this issue and that the Secretary of that the matter be debated more extensively. State has so little personal enthusiasm for the policy. The one thing that I can say to the hon. Lady is that Does he agree that the main problem in rape cases is the the idea that the proposal was a male decision to the low conviction rate and the fact that rape victims are exclusion of female sensitivity on the subject is, frankly, not believed? Rather than trying to create ways to slightly wide of the mark. Nobody in the House denies provide those accused of rape with more protection, we that rape is a serious offence; nobody in the House should be looking at ways to make sure that women wants to reduce the protection that is given to women feel able to come forward and that we increase the who are threatened with it or experience it. conviction rate.

6. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): What Mr Clarke: I hasten to repeat that I have no responsibility assessment he has made of the potential effect on the or control over the whipping arrangements of any of likelihood of rape victims coming forward of his policy the political parties in the House. When I was operating to extend anonymity to defendants in rape trials. [2221] as a Back Bencher, I took this sort of vote very seriously. I considered it seriously in 2003 and came down in 10. Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): favour of voting for anonymity. It is no good trying to What plans he has to extend anonymity to defendants sweep the issue from the field, and we are not going to in rape cases. [2225] do that. 15. Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) The conviction rate among those charged with rape is (Lab): What assessment he has made of the likely effect 38%, which is lower than that for some other offences, of his proposal to introduce anonymity for defendants but rape is different in many ways from more in rape cases on the number of prosecution brought in straightforward crimes such as theft. In rape cases, we such cases. [2230] are essentially relying on the frame of mind of one of 727 Oral Answers15 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 728 the parties; something that is perfectly lawful and The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Nick Herbert): affectionate if the woman is consenting is a very serious May I congratulate my hon. Friend on his election as criminal offence if she is not. deputy leader of the Liberal Democrats? Juries are the best people to decide whether they The Government believe that more can be done to believe one version or the other in what, in my very cut reoffending by overhauling the system of rehabilitation. distant experience of such trials, can sometimes be We are exploring how sentencing and treatment for difficult cases that are best left to juries. That is why I drug use can help offenders to come off drugs once and am urging that this is a serious issue, and the coalition for all. We are also exploring how we can do more with agreement was right to raise it. We have expressed our independent providers, including the voluntary sector, current intention, but Members from all parties will to reduce reoffending. want to listen to all the arguments on both sides and not just be driven away from considering them. Simon Hughes: I welcome the Minister and all his colleagues to the Front Bench to consider such an Emma Reynolds: When the black cab driver John important subject. May I encourage them, as they work Worboys was charged with a string of sex attacks, more out the plans to deal with reoffending—as has been than 80 women felt that they could come forward and said, it is a serious issue, which the previous Government present themselves as victims. Anonymity for rape did not address adequately—to take the advice of people defendants would have prevented that from happening. such as the previous governor of Brixton prison, who Surely the Justice Secretary agrees that it is important were clear that, if secure housing and continuing support that victims should feel able to come forward, not only to deal with addictions are provided when people are to seek justice for themselves, but to strengthen the case released, the chance of immediate reoffending, which for prosecution. often starts in days, is hugely reduced? Nick Herbert: I could not agree more with my hon. Mr Clarke: That could be a good argument, and we Friend. We must improve the multi-agency approach to will look at it; evidence of that is, I think, one of the tackling reoffending. That means bringing together the things that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary said we police, probation, prisons and local authorities, and would consider. We are trying to have a look at the ensuring that they work together more effectively. The Worboys case, which is always cited, to see how far key is to get offenders off drugs and into work, and, in the response to that was caused by publicity about the particular, as he says, into housing. If we can do that, name of the accused person and how far it was a result we have a chance of reducing the unacceptably high of the police investigation into the nature of the rape. reoffending rates that we currently experience. We can come back to that in later debate. It is not a conclusive argument. A very large number of rape cases Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): But how will the do not involve multiple offenders; essentially, they often cuts that have just been announced to the future jobs involve people who are well known to each other and fund, which provides employment for ex-offenders in have a history of a consensual sexual relationship. my constituency—a third of a million pounds comes from Connexions and an equal sum from Positive Activities Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): Does my for Young People—contribute to reducing reoffending right hon. and learned Friend agree that it is important in Slough? that the appropriate counselling is available for victims coming forward? That counselling has recently been Nick Herbert: Clearly, the Opposition still have not withdrawn in my constituency and that of the hon. grasped the scale of the fiscal deficit that the country Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan). It is now faces or their responsibility for creating it. Reoffending provided by volunteers. Will my right hon. and learned costs the criminal justice system and wider society Friend look at ensuring that appropriate funding is put billions of pounds a year. If we can succeed in reducing in place for that service? reoffending and capture some of that money to invest in rehabilitation services through a payment-by-results model, Mr Clarke: I certainly will. I have already referred to which we proposed in our rehabilitation revolution, we our commitment to try to provide new rape crisis centres, have a chance of producing the rehabilitation services preferably using the proceeds of crime when they are that the previous Government lamentably failed to provide. recovered from criminal offenders. I strongly agree with Prison Building (Costs) my hon. Friend that we are long past the stage at which a woman complaining of rape is treated as if she were complaining about a handbag robbery. There is no 12. Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): doubt that all these cases have to be treated with What assessment he has made of the balance of considerable sensitivity because it is very difficult for a expenditure between (a) prison building and (b) woman to bring herself to complain and not enough do community sentences and restorative justice schemes. so, even in the present climate of opinion. [2227] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Reoffending (Mr Crispin Blunt): I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his unopposed re-election as Chair of the Justice 8. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) Committee. (LD): What steps the Government plan to take to As I said in reply to earlier questions, our proposals reduce reoffending by prisoners after release; and if he for implementing the coalition agreement commitments will make a statement. [2223] on sentencing and rehabilitation will be presented after 729 Oral Answers15 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 730 the House returns in October. Our future plans for, and rate of growth of incarceration. In the end, we cannot the balance of expenditure between, custodial and lock up everybody who might be a threat to someone, community provision will need to be considered in the because in that way, the entire population would end up light of that, and restorative justice will feature strongly in prison. There is a logical end to that process, and we in that work, as will the work of the Justice Committee will do our level best to deliver more effective policies to in its first report of 2009-10 on the case for justice ensure that there are fewer victims in future. reinvestment. Prison Places Sir Alan Beith: I thank the Under-Secretary for his kind words and congratulate him on taking office. Did he notice when he arrived at the Department that he 13. Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): How many and was committed to a prison building programme, inherited what proportion of prison inmates are accommodated from the previous Government, that cost more than on a doubled-up basis; and if he will make a statement. £4 billion? It produced the highest incarceration rate in [2228] western Europe and pre-empted resources, which, if they were used to prevent crime, would save victims The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice from suffering from crime in the first place. (Mr Crispin Blunt): In 2009-10, the average number of prisoners sharing a cell designed for one was approximately Mr Blunt: My right hon. Friend will be glad to know 19,000, and there are more than 1,000 cases in which that it did not entirely escape my attention. However, three prisoners are sharing a cell designed for two. That I draw his attention to the evidence that the then Justice overcrowding is concentrated in male local prisons, Secretary gave to the Justice Committee in 2008. He where 47.6% of prisoners are held in overcrowded pointed out that there was an opportunity to deliver the conditions. new prison places more cheaply on a revenue basis than the existing prison estate, and for them to be more fit for Claire Perry: Will the Minister comment on the fact purpose in enabling the prison estate to address reoffending that the previous Government’s mismanagement of the behaviour. The prison building programme per se is indeterminate public protection sentencing regime in not, therefore, the problem but the number of offenders many ways contributed to that overcrowding? That was whom we have to sustain in custody. We need to examine brought to my attention by a prisoner in HMP Erlestoke the policies that drive those numbers. in my constituency, who copied me in on a very good letter to Inside Time this month. Will the Minister tell Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): May I add my the House what he will do to help to reform the IPP welcome to the Under-Secretary? I also offer my regime? congratulations to the Justice Secretary and to my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) on their Mr Blunt: I notice that the previous Government had 40th anniversary this week as Members of the House. to reform the IPP arrangements in 2008, having introduced them in the Criminal Justice Act 2003. We inherit a very Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Don’t tell Osborne. serious problem with IPP prisoners. We have 6,000 IPP prisoners, well over 2,500 of whom have exceeded their Mr Straw: I think my hon. Friend means that it was tariff point. Many cannot get on courses because our shortly before the Chancellor was born. prisons are wholly overcrowded and unable to address Does the Under-Secretary acknowledge that there offending behaviour. That is not a defensible position. has been a sustained fall in crime from 1995 to date, and that the increase in prison places and the fact that more Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): In opposition, serious and violent offenders are now incarcerated has Conservative Members thought it was a good idea—in contributed to that fall? fact, they thought there was an extremely strong case—to build a new prison in north Wales. Is that still their Mr Blunt: Evidence on the effects of incarceration is view? mixed at best. We must take the political temperature out of the debate. Outbidding each other on how robust Mr Blunt: Yes. we will be in dealing with offenders probably does potential future victims no good. We must have policies Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Does the that address future offending behaviour and consider Minister agree that there would be a lot less overcrowding the life cycle of potential and actual offenders so that in prisons were we to adopt the very sensible policy of we can support them effectively. sending back to secure detention in their countries of origin the 13% of our prison population who are foreign Mr Straw: The whole House would agree that the nationals? fundamental test of an anti-crime policy is whether crime has fallen. With that in mind, will the Minister Mr Blunt: I can assure my hon. Friend that we will do now acknowledge that crime fell consistently from 1995 our absolute level best to improve the position. and throughout the 1997 to 2010 Administration?

Mr Blunt: No, because the change in trend on crime Pleural Plaques was achieved by Michael Howard, the then Home Secretary, who delivered a robust policy that effected changes. He 14. Mr Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab): What recent was the author of the change in policy, but there is a representations he has received on compensation for limit to continuing that process, as there must be to the people with pleural plaques. [2229] 731 Oral Answers15 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 732

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice allegations of normal violent crime or theft—[Interruption.] (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): Let me first recognise the hon. No, the nature of the issue before the jury is very Gentleman’s relentless campaigning on compensation different in such cases. The best analogy is with other for pleural plaques sufferers. I recently answered two sexual offence complaints made against teachers and written parliamentary questions relating to pleural plaques, others, in which anonymity is given to the victim but and Ministers have received a number of letters from not to the person accused, and some Members have hon. Members and their constituents. argued for that to be reconsidered.

Mr Hepburn: I thank the Government for standing Prison Capacity by the previous Government’s commitment to compensate past pleural plaques victims, but will the Minister go one step further, as Labour did when in office, and give 18. Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) a commitment that if any new medical evidence comes (Con): What his policy is on increasing prison capacity; forward on the condition, the issue will be reopened? and if he will make a statement. [2233]

Mr Djanogly: The issue was considered extensively in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice the last Parliament. A public consultation was carried (Mr Crispin Blunt): I refer my hon. Friend to the answer out, and authoritative medical reports were prepared by I gave to the hon. Member for North Durham (Kevan the chief medical officer and the Industrial Injuries Jones) earlier. Advisory Council. The Government consider that in the light of that evidence, it would not be appropriate to Mr Evennett: I thank the Minister for his response overturn the House of Lords 2007 judgment that the earlier and agree with the comments that he made. Does condition is not compensatable under the civil law of he agree that the successful reduction of reoffending tort. However, of course, if the situation were to change, levels requires a long-term focus rather than a series of we would look at it again. If new medical evidence short-term piecemeal proposals? The Labour Government emerges that suggests that the existence of pleural plaques had short-termism and failed. is an actionable cause and that the condition counts as compensatable damage, it will be open to claimants to Mr Blunt: I agree with my hon. Friend. I am afraid pursue an action under the law of tort. that we have seen too much focus on the pursuing of political positions and influence by the media. What we Rape Convictions have to do now is take advantage of the change in Administration, and the fact that we have a coalition 17. Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): Government, to try to take the political heat out of the What the conviction rate was for cases of rape reported issue, and achieve consensus on a long-term strategy to in Liverpool, Wavertree constituency in the last 12 months address reoffending. for which figures are available. [2232] Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): The The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice Justice Secretary is reported as saying that millions of (Mr Kenneth Clarke): Conviction rates are based on the pounds could be saved by jailing fewer offenders and proportion of defendants proceeded against who were slashing sentences. Does the Minister accept that our found guilty. I can tell the hon. Lady that 44 defendants first duty is the protection of the public and that we were proceeded against in the Merseyside police force must provide prison capacity accordingly? area in 2008 and 13 were found guilty, giving a conviction rate of 30%. Court proceedings data are not available at Mr Blunt: Yes, but I do not entirely recognise the hon. parliamentary constituency level. Gentleman’s presentation of my right hon. and learned Friend the Justice Secretary’s comments over the weekend. Luciana Berger: As the Secretary of State has just The hon. Gentleman is right to say that the first objective highlighted, the conviction rate for rape in my constituency is public protection, and if we are to protect the public is already dangerously low. Can he give us a definitive of tomorrow, so that there are fewer victims, we have to answer as to why rape defendants should be afforded ensure that we have a justice service that will deliver a greater protection than defendants accused of other reduction in reoffending rates and can divert people serious crimes? from offending in the first place.

Mr Clarke: There are some relevant arguments on Victims of Crime both sides, and other arguments that—with respect—are less relevant. I do not think that the conviction rate for rape is affected by whether the defendant had anonymity 19. Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con): What steps he up to the trial. Nor is a woman’s decision to complain is taking to ensure that the interests of victims of crime affected by whether the man’s name will be published in are effectively represented in the criminal justice the newspaper immediately. It is important to ensure system; and if he will make a statement. [2234] that all cases of rape are reported by victims who are then treated properly and that cases in which the evidence The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Nick Herbert): is sufficient are prosecuted and convicted. I trust that The coalition Government’s aim is to establish a criminal that will be pursued in Merseyside. As I say, some justice system that rebuilds public confidence in the 30% of those charged are convicted, and I shall not system and ensures that our streets are safe. The rights dilate further than I did earlier on the particular nature and welfare of the victim are vital to this. The Government of rape allegations, which are rather different from the are dedicated to ensuring support for victims and witnesses. 733 Oral Answers15 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 734

We want to involve voluntary sector victims groups Mr Clarke: I recognise the important and very enjoyable more and harness their ideas and innovation to help us responsibility I had for the Crown dependencies when I to improve support. was Home Secretary, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the Government give a high priority to ensuring Esther McVey: A constituent of mine, Jean Taylor, that the relationship with the Channel Islands and the set up the charity, Families Fighting for Justice, after Isle of Man is completely satisfactory. I am surprised the murder of her son and daughter. Can the Minister that responsibility has found its way to the Justice assure her, and many others in similar situations, that Department—perhaps it was not considered carefully these charities, which are filling the gaps in the justice enough by the previous Government. I only raise the system to provide support for victims of crime, will have possibility that we will have a look at the allocation of sufficient transparency and lines of communication responsibilities between Departments to find which open to his Department in order to carry out their work? allocation best suits both Her Majesty’s Government and the Governments of the Crown dependencies. Nick Herbert: I am happy to assure my hon. Friend of that. Charities and voluntary groups set up to promote T2. [2241] Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) the interests of victims are immensely important, and I (Lab): Ministers have referred to the recommendation would be delighted to meet the group concerned. Consistent in the Stern report on false allegations of rape. What are with the proposals for a big society that we have been their plans to address the other 22 recommendations in setting out for some time, we want to find ways to the report? ensure that such groups have a voice, and give victims a voice, in the criminal justice system. Mr Clarke: The recommendations were only made Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): What are the recently, but I agree that there is no point looking at one Minister’s plans for the future of the National Victims’ aspect of the subject without looking at the others. I Service? think the whole House agrees that we should do everything possible to protect the victims of rape, to enable proper allegations to be brought and to enable justice to be Nick Herbert: We are reviewing all these arrangements done, so that those responsible for this serious crime are to promote the interests of victims. I welcome the brought to justice. I only mentioned one aspect of appointment of the Victims Commissioner and the work Baroness Stern’s report, but the whole report is indeed she will embark upon. We are aware of the important important. work that the National Victims’ Service is planning to do. T5. [2244] David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): A Topical Questions High Court judge, sitting on the board of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, recently told all MPs that they should be treated in exactly the same way T1. [2240] Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): If he as every other public servant. Will the Minister therefore will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. consider publishing the travel and accommodation expenses and allowances of High Court judges so that we can The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice find out whether we are indeed matched pound for (Mr Kenneth Clarke): The Ministry of Justice is responsible pound with their lordships? for the entire justice system, including the courts, prisons and probation services. Over the past four weeks, since taking office, I have sought to look at the major issues The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice facing the Department and have worked closely with (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): The Lord Chief Justice decided my ministerial colleagues to identify policy objectives that, from the start of the new legal year in October and where savings can be made, given the current economic 2009, the expenses claims of High Court judges and circumstances. We are conducting a full assessment of above should be recorded in such a way that they can be sentencing and rehabilitation policy to ensure it is effective attributed to individual judges and published at regular in deterring crime, protecting the public, punishing intervals. The first set, covering October to the end of offenders and cutting reoffending, while ensuring good December 2009, was published in March, and the next value for the taxpayer. We intend to concentrate on the set, covering January to Easter, is due to be published in needs of justice while ensuring that legal aid works July. Figures for the summer term will be published in efficiently and that taxpayers’ money is well spent. In the autumn. addition, I would like to inform the House that the Prime Minister has asked me to be the Government’s T3. [2242] Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) anti-corruption champion. (Lab): May I congratulate the Secretary of State on his appointment? As a fellow Nottinghamshire MP, may Andrew Rosindell: I thank the Secretary of State for I ask him to have a look at a problem that eluded Justice for his answer, although he did not mention his his three predecessors, which is the creation of a Department’s responsibility for the British Crown community court in the city of Nottingham? People in dependencies of the Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, Sark Nottingham want the community court and people in and Alderney. He will know that the previous Government the communities want it. However, it seems that the were rather negative towards the loyal subjects in the legal establishment in Nottingham does not want a Crown dependencies. Will he confirm that the new community court. Will he use his good offices to make Conservative-led Government will be positive towards that wish come true in an area that is, as he knows, them and value their contribution to the British economy? fighting crime very well? 735 Oral Answers15 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 736

The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Nick Herbert): Mr Kenneth Clarke: With great respect, I find it very I am aware of the operation of the community court up surprising that so many questions are being raised in Liverpool, which I have visited, and the community about a proposition that has been before the House, on court in Red Hook in New York, which pioneered this and off, for the past 20 years and is not easily resolved. system of community justice. They are indeed interesting, We will, of course, look at all arguments, including the and we should look at their success carefully. I am experience of the case to which the hon. Lady has afraid that I cannot give the hon. Gentleman any referred, but that is only one of the considerations to be commitment on Nottingham, but we are interested in taken into account. There will undoubtedly sometimes and aware of the importance of community courts. be cases where the publication of the name of the accused person gives rise to other people coming forward T6. [2245] Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) with well-founded complaints against that person. We (Con): May I congratulate the Justice Secretary on his will have to see whether there is any evidence that such new position? Can he explain what the coalition cases are a significant proportion of the total cases of Government’s position is on self-defence in the event of rape. We shall also have to consider the arguments on burglaries in one’s own home and the level to which we the other side, where a woman can make an anonymous can defend our properties? I understand that we have complaint, the man can eventually be convicted, after undertaken a review of the position, and people would going through a long and probably rather destructive like clarification, following a number of Back-Bench ordeal, and the woman retains her anonymity as she Bills from Government Members. walks away, with her ex-boyfriend or ex-husband left to live with the consequences.

Nick Herbert: I can tell my hon. Friend that we are Hon. Members: What? reviewing the law and its interpretation carefully, and we will explore all the options before bringing forward T8. [2247] MrGaryStreeter(SouthWestDevon)(Con): proposals. We must ensure that the responsible citizen Given that it is a surprise to some of us that so many acting in self-defence or for the prevention of crime has drugs enter our prisons every day through a variety of the appropriate level of legal protection. methods, what steps will this exciting new Government take to try to crack down on this abuse of Her T4. [2243] Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Will the Lib Majesty’s prisons? Dem-Tory Government be legislating to give prisoners the vote? Mr Blunt: Plainly, this issue is not new, and there have already been reviews of how drugs get into prisons. We Mr Kenneth Clarke: The previous Government were are going to examine this matter and, as I have said, it considering the question carefully, and we are still carefully will be a priority of mine. I am minded to try to ensure considering our policy on the issue. that prisoners have the opportunity to get on to abstinence- based programmes successfully and safely, within the prison estate, and to ensure that they do not get knocked T7. [2246] MrDominicRaab(EsherandWalton)(Con): off course by the availability of illegal drugs in our What plans does the Justice Secretary have to reform prisons— drug rehabilitation in our prisons, so that we see fewer offenders languishing on methadone prescriptions Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry to interrupt. It is than under the previous Government, and more going understandable that Ministers should look backwards clean on abstinence-based programmes? at those questioning them, but they must face the House. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Crispin Blunt): Clinical guidance for the treatment Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): Seventeen- of heroin addicts in prison has been updated to reinforce year-old Ashleigh Hall, who lived in my constituency, the expectation that prisoners jailed for more than six was murdered last year by Peter Chapman, who is now months should not be maintained on methadone unless serving a life sentence. While in prison, Mr Chapman there are exceptional circumstances. We recognise that has been writing to Ashleigh Hall’s parents and family. continuity of management of drug users is a key challenge. Does the Minister think that that is acceptable? The work of Lord Patel’s prison drug treatment strategy review and last year’s review of the drug interventions Mr Blunt: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for bringing programme will help us to strengthen arrangements that to my attention. Perhaps she could write to me with between prisons and the community.However, I absolutely the details of the case. Obviously, on the face of it, it acknowledge my hon. Friend’s great concern about sounds unacceptable, and I would be pleased to look the issue. into the matter.

T9. [2248] Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) T10. [2249] Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Lab): In a recent case, a Salford man had committed a (Con): What is the legal aid funding allocation per head rape and was bailed, but then committed a further in England and Wales, and how does it compare with rape, and the police believe that there are further legal aid funding in other countries? victims of this man. Can the Secretary of State explain why the Government have committed in their coalition Mr Djanogly: England and Wales have by far the agreement to extending anonymity to such defendants most generous legal aid provision in the whole world. before all the evidence is heard? Can he also say who For example, Spain spends £2.55 a head, France spends will now be consulted for that evidence? £3.31, and Germany spends £4.69. Countries with a 737 Oral Answers15 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 738 similar system, such as New Zealand, spend on average service? Will he take this opportunity to, at the very £8 a head, compared with £38 a head in England and least, ring-fence his Department’s expenditure on services Wales. for the victims of crime?

John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): On the Mr Clarke: The Government will give priority to issue of pleural plaques, when does the Minister expect victims to exactly the extent that the House would to make the first payments under the new compensation expect. It should be in the forefront of all our minds scheme? when trying to protect the country against crime that the interests of victims should be paramount. My reflection Mr Djanogly: The mechanics of the scheme are being on this hour of questioning is that it is no good for the consulted on, and we hope to start making payments Labour party to respond to every suggestion that there towards the end of this month. might be budget constraints as though that represents a threat to an essential service. The fact is that there is no Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): In his capacity as the money, and that is the fault of those in the Labour new anti-corruption tsar, will the Justice Secretary have party. They will not be taken seriously again until they a word with Andy Coulson? Andy Coulson and Rebekah face up to the reality of the situation to which they have Wade both admitted that they had paid police officers largely contributed, and start producing some realistic for information when running newspapers. They paid alternative policies to challenge those being put forward police officers; that is suborning a police officer. Will by the Government. the Justice Secretary institute a review of the process whereby newspapers sometimes pay for information Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): Will from police officers, and put a stop to it? the Secretary of State clarify whether his Department is to review the current system of classification of controlled drugs—which has been called seriously into question in Mr Kenneth Clarke: Personally, I think that this recent months—and particularly the role of the Advisory Government are going to give a very high priority to Committee on the Misuse of Drugs? restoring and, I trust, maintaining this company’s reputation—[Laughter.]—this country’s reputation as Mr Clarke: We have been looking at practically every one of the leading advocates of the elimination of aspect of policy in our first weeks in office, but we are corruption in trade and in Government contracts. We not rushing to readdress the categorisation of drugs shall also ensure that the Bribery Act 2010, which we and we are going to ensure that scientific advice on this supported, is properly enforced, and that we are in the subject is treated properly, objectively and in the public forefront of the people paying regard to this matter. interest. Any views that my hon. Friend wishes to put With respect, I do not think that the hon. Gentleman’s forward on the workings of the present system will be question bears very closely on that. I would also say to carefully considered by myself and my team of Ministers. him that making allegations against people who are not Members, under cover of parliamentary privilege, should Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Does be done with great caution. He should not accuse the Secretary of State agree that the recent spectacle of people of corruption in the course of putting a question Roy Whiting exploiting British taxpayers to demand a to me on this subject. reduction in his sentence is an abuse of justice and an insult to the memory of Sarah Payne? Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): Will the Justice Secretary acknowledge that, when our Mr Blunt: The important principle to establish here is constituents are the victims of crime, they often need judicial independence. I think we should therefore respect support and assistance to navigate the criminal justice the decisions that judges come to on these matters. 739 15 JUNE 2010 Saville Inquiry 740

Saville Inquiry “The immediate responsibility for the deaths and injuries on Bloody Sunday lies with those members of Support Company whose unjustifiable firing was the cause of those deaths and 3.30 pm injuries”, and, crucially, that The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement. “none of the casualties was posing a threat of causing death or Today, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for serious injury, or indeed was doing anything else that could on any view justify their shooting”. Northern Ireland is publishing the report of the Saville inquiry—the tribunal set up by the previous Government For those people who were looking for the report to use to investigate the tragic events of 30 January 1972, a day terms like murder and unlawful killing, I remind the more commonly known as “Bloody Sunday”. We have House that these judgments are not matters for a tribunal, acted in good faith by publishing the tribunal’s findings or for us as politicians, to determine. as quickly as possible after the general election. These are shocking conclusions to read and shocking I am deeply patriotic; I never want to believe anything words to have to say, but we do not defend the British bad about our country; I never want to call into question Army by defending the indefensible. We do not honour the behaviour of our soldiers and our Army, which I all those who have served with distinction in keeping the believe to be the finest in the world. And I have seen for peace and upholding the rule of law in Northern Ireland myself the very difficult and dangerous circumstances by hiding from the truth. So there is no point in trying in which we ask our soldiers to serve. But the conclusions to soften, or equivocate about, what is in this report. It of this report are absolutely clear: there is no doubt; is clear from the tribunal’s authoritative conclusions there is nothing equivocal; there are no ambiguities. that the events of Bloody Sunday were in no way What happened on Bloody Sunday was both unjustified justified. and unjustifiable. It was wrong. I know that some people wonder whether, nearly Lord Saville concludes that the soldiers of Support 40 years on from an event, a Prime Minister needs to Company who went into the Bogside issue an apology. For someone of my generation, Bloody “did so as a result of an order… which should have not been Sunday and the early 1970s are something that we feel given” we have learnt about rather than lived through. But by their commander. He finds that what happened should never, ever have happened. The families of those who died should not have had to live “on balance the first shot in the vicinity of the march was fired by the British Army” with the pain and hurt of that day, and with a lifetime of loss. Some members of our armed forces acted and that wrongly. The Government are ultimately responsible “none of the casualties shot by soldiers of Support Company was for the conduct of the armed forces, and for that, on armed with a firearm”. behalf of the Government—indeed, on behalf of our He also finds that country—I am deeply sorry. “there was some firing by republican paramilitaries... but... none Just as the report is clear that the actions of that day of this firing provided any justification for the shooting of civilian were unjustifiable, so too it is clear in some of its other casualties”, findings. Those looking for premeditation, those looking and that for a plan, those even looking for a conspiracy involving “in no case was any warning given before soldiers opened fire”. senior politicians or senior members of the armed Lord Saville also finds that Support Company forces, will not find it in this report. Indeed, Lord “reacted by losing their self-control... forgetting or ignoring their Saville finds no evidence that the events of Bloody instructions and training” Sunday were premeditated. He concludes that the United and acted with Kingdom and Northern Ireland Governments, and the Army, neither tolerated nor encouraged “a serious and widespread loss of fire discipline”. “the use of unjustified lethal force”. He finds that “despite the contrary evidence given by the soldiers… none of He makes no suggestion of a Government cover-up, them fired in response to attacks or threatened attacks by nail or and he credits the United Kingdom Government with petrol bombers” working towards a peaceful political settlement in Northern and that many of the soldiers Ireland. “knowingly put forward false accounts in order to seek to justify The report also specifically deals with the actions of their firing”. key individuals in the Army, in politics and beyond, What is more, Lord Saville says that some of those including Major-General Ford, Brigadier MacLellan killed or injured were clearly fleeing or going to the and Lieutenant-Colonel Wilford. In each case, the tribunal’s assistance of others who were dying. The report refers findings are clear. The report does the same for Martin to one person who was shot while McGuinness. It specifically finds that he was present and probably armed with a “sub-machine-gun”, but “crawling… away from the soldiers” concludes and mentions another who was shot, in all probability, “we are sure that he did not engage in any activity that provided “when he was lying mortally wounded on the ground”. any of the soldiers with any justification for opening fire”. And the report refers to a father who was While in no way justifying the events of 30 January “hit and injured by Army gunfire after he had gone to… tend his 1972, we should acknowledge the background to the son”. events of Bloody Sunday. Since 1969, the security situation For those looking for statements of innocence, Saville in Northern Ireland had been declining significantly. says: Three days before Bloody Sunday, two officers in the 741 Saville Inquiry15 JUNE 2010 Saville Inquiry 742

[The Prime Minister] can never be justified by those criminal gangs that today want to drag Northern Ireland back to its bitter and Royal Ulster Constabulary—one a Catholic—were shot bloody past. No Government I lead will ever put those by the IRA in Londonderry, the first police officers who fight to defend democracy on an equal footing killed in the city during the troubles. A third of the city with those who continue to seek to destroy it, but nor of Derry had become a no-go area for the RUC and the will we hide from the truth that confronts us today. In Army, and in the end 1972 was to prove Northern the words of Lord Saville: Ireland’s bloodiest year by far, with nearly 500 people “What happened on Bloody Sunday strengthened the Provisional killed. IRA, increased nationalist resentment and hostility towards the Let us also remember that Bloody Sunday is not the Army and exacerbated the violent conflict of the years that defining story of the service that the British Army gave followed. Bloody Sunday was a tragedy for the bereaved and the in Northern Ireland from 1969 to 2007. That was known wounded, and a catastrophe for the people of Northern Ireland.” as Operation Banner, the longest continuous operation Those are words we cannot and must not ignore, but I in British military history, which spanned 38 years and hope what this report can do is mark the moment when in which over 250,000 people served. Our armed forces we come together, in this House and in the communities displayed enormous courage and professionalism in we represent; come together to acknowledge our shared upholding democracy and the rule of law in Northern history, even where it divides us; and come together to Ireland. Acting in support of the police, they played a close this painful chapter on Northern Ireland’s troubled major part in setting the conditions that have made past. That is not to say that we must ever forget or peaceful politics possible, and over 1,000 members of dismiss that past, but we must also move on. Northern the security forces lost their lives to that cause. Without Ireland has been transformed over the past 20 years and their work, the peace process would not have happened. all of us in Westminster and Stormont must continue Of course some mistakes were undoubtedly made, but that work of change, coming together with all the lessons were also learnt. Once again, I put on record the people of Northern Ireland, to build a stable, peaceful, immense debt of gratitude that we all owe those who prosperous and shared future. It is with that determination served in Northern Ireland. that I commend this statement to the House. I thank the tribunal for its work, and thank all those who displayed great courage in giving evidence. I also Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): wish to acknowledge the grief of the families of those May I thank the Prime Minister for his statement? As killed. They have pursued their long campaign over he said, it is more than 12 years since the then Prime 38 years with great patience. Nothing can bring back Minister Tony Blair set up the Saville inquiry to establish those who were killed, but I hope that—as one relative the truth of what happened on what became known as has put it—the truth coming out can help to set people Bloody Sunday. For the 14 families whose loved ones free. were killed, for the 13 who were injured, for the soldiers John Major said that he was open to a new inquiry. and their families, for all those whose lives would never Tony Blair then set it up. That was accepted by the then be the same again, the report has been long-awaited. We Leader of the Opposition. Of course, none of us anticipated all recognise how painful this has been, and the Prime that the Saville inquiry would take 12 years or cost Minister has been clear today. He said that there is no almost £200 million. Our views on that are well documented. ambiguity, that it was wrong; he has apologised and we It is right to pursue the truth with vigour and thoroughness, join him in his apology. but let me reassure the House that there will be no more I also join the Prime Minister in thanking Lord open-ended and costly inquiries into the past. Saville and all those whose work contributed to the However, today is not about the controversies report. The report speaks for itself and it speaks powerfully. surrounding the process. It is about the substance, about I remind the House of what Tony Blair said on the what this report tells us. Everyone should have the day that the House agreed to establish the Saville inquiry. chance to examine its complete findings, and that is He said that Bloody Sunday was a day we have all why it is being published in full. Running to more than wished “had never happened” and that it was “a tragic 5,000 pages, it is being published in 10 volumes. Naturally, day” for everyone. I reiterate his tribute to the dignity of it will take all of us some time to digest the report’s full the bereaved families, whose campaign was about searching findings and understand all the implications. The House for the truth. He rightly reminded the House of the will have an opportunity for a full day’s debate this thousands of lives that have been lost in Northern autumn, and in the meantime the Secretaries of State Ireland. May I restate our sincere admiration for our for Northern Ireland and for Defence will report back security forces’ response to terrorism in Northern Ireland? to me on all the issues that arise from it. Many lost their lives. Nothing in today’s report can or This report and the inquiry itself demonstrate how a should diminish their record of service. They have been state should hold itself to account and how we should outstanding. be determined at all times—no matter how difficult—to The Prime Minister has acknowledged that the Saville judge ourselves against the highest standards. Openness inquiry was necessary to establish the truth and to and frankness about the past, however painful, do not redress the inadequacy of Lord Widgery’s inquiry, which make us weaker; they make us stronger. That is one of served only to deepen the sense of grievance, added to the things that differentiates us from the terrorists. We the pain of the families of those who died and were should never forget that over 3,500 people, from every injured, outraged the community and prolonged the community, lost their lives in Northern Ireland, the uncertainty hanging over the soldiers. I am grateful to overwhelming majority killed by terrorists. There were the Prime Minister for reminding the House that the many terrible atrocities. Politically motivated violence setting up of the Saville inquiry played a necessary part was never justified, whichever side it came from, and it in the peace process. Does the Prime Minister agree 743 Saville Inquiry15 JUNE 2010 Saville Inquiry 744 that, notwithstanding the considerable cost of this inquiry, learned Lady has seen, it is the most enormous document, its value cannot be overestimated in both seeking the and it will take some time to go through all of it and truth and facilitating the peace process? Does he believe identify all the points that need to be responded to. that Saville has now established the truth? That will be led by my right hon. Friends the Secretaries How the Government handle the report is of great of State for Defence and for Northern Ireland. They importance, so I thank the Prime Minister for committing will consider it and come to me with suggestions for to seek a full day’s parliamentary debate on it. Will he what needs to be followed up, and I think we will have consider allowing for a period of time between the to see how others respond to this very full report too. debate in each House, so that what is said in this House The right hon. and learned Lady raised the question may be considered before the debate in the Lords? of prosecution. She is right, of course, to say that these When will he be in a position to say what, if any, action are decisions for the Director of Public Prosecutions to will be taken in Government as a result of the findings take in Northern Ireland and that should be entirely of the Saville report? What will be the decision-making independent. On the issue of immunity, I am informed process, and will the process be as transparent as possible? by the Advocate-General that the evidence given to the The Prime Minister must recognise that some will no inquiry is subject to the undertaking given by the Attorney- doubt raise the possibility of prosecutions. The prosecution General in February 1999 process is independent, but has he been asked to consider “that evidence given by witnesses to the Inquiry would not be the question of immunity from prosecution if we are used to the prejudice of that person in any criminal proceedings instead to take things forward by a wider process of except proceedings where the witness is charged with giving false reconciliation? Is the time now right to move towards a evidence.” process for reconciliation, building on the work of the I think that is the right position. Consultative Group on the Past, chaired by Lord Eames The right hon. and learned Lady will know that we and Denis Bradley? Can there now be a comprehensive do not agree with some parts of the Eames-Bradley process of reconciliation to address the legacy issue of report, particularly the idea of universal recognition the troubles, such as that proposed by my right hon. payments; we do not think it is right to treat terrorists Friend the Member for St Helens South and Whiston and others in the same way. I think that it is right to use, (Mr Woodward) when he was Secretary of State for as far as is possible, the Historical Enquiries Team to Northern Ireland? Does the Prime Minister agree that deal with the problems of the past and to avoid having that is what is now necessary? more open-ended, highly costly inquiries, but of course The peace process is a great achievement by the we should look at each case on its merits. May I thank people of Northern Ireland as well as by politicians. It her again for the way in which she has responded to this is a process built on the value of fairness, equality, truth important statement for Britain, for Northern Ireland and justice. This House has played its part, not least in and for a peaceful future for our country? agreeing to the Saville inquiry. The Belfast agreement, the St Andrews agreement and, of course, this year’s Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): As the Hillsborough castle agreement are all great milestones Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition have on the path to a lasting peace. Does the Prime Minister said, it is very important to have a measured and agree that the completion of devolution just a few proportionate response to this report, both in this House weeks ago is relatively new and fragile and still requires and in Northern Ireland. Is it not, therefore, important great care? Our response to Saville must be as measured that the leaders of all the parties in Northern Ireland, as it is proportionate. We have sought the truth; now we on both sides of the divide, show leadership in that must have understanding and reconciliation. respect? One thing that we do not want to do is see the May I conclude by expressing the hope that while Army return to the streets of Northern Ireland, and to people will never forget what happened on that day, this avoid that situation coming about again we must have report will help them find a way of living with the past the correct response to this report. It will take time to and looking to the future? digest, because it is 5,000 pages long and raises many issues. We have to look at this issue and the whole The Prime Minister: May I thank the right hon. and report, and we must do justice to it. That will take time learned Lady for what she has said? I do not think there and a reasoned approach. are any significant divisions between us on this vital issue and, as she said, how we respond to this matters: it The Prime Minister: First, may I congratulate my matters for the peace process, it matters for the families hon. Friend on being elected as the Chair of the Select and it matters for our country. She is right that the value Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs? He has had a of this is getting to the truth. Of course we can argue long interest in this part of our United Kingdom, and about the process, the time and the money, but that is I know that he will do an excellent job. The point he secondary to the issue of the substance, and the substance makes is entirely right: how we respond to this as party is about getting to the truth on this issue. The right hon. leaders—this applies to all parties—will make a huge and learned Lady raised a number of specific questions, difference to the way that this is seen and understood. and I shall try to deal with them. It is a highly charged and highly emotional issue, even The idea of leaving a period of time between the 38 years on, and in our response we have to be responsible debates in the Commons and the Lords is very sensible, for what we say and how we say it. I think that it is and I will ask my right hon. Friend the Leader of the important that everyone recognises that. House to look at that—although, of course, we are not responsible for timings in the Lords. In terms of the Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): As the political action the Government should take, I should point out development Minister in 1998, when this inquiry was that this report is 5,000 pages long; as the right hon. and started, I think that I was right in agreeing with it. 745 Saville Inquiry15 JUNE 2010 Saville Inquiry 746

[Paul Murphy] Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): May I thank the Prime Minister for his clear statement? From talking to Having listened to the Prime Minister’s statement, all of representatives of the families a short while ago, I know which I agree with, I believe that, despite the costs and that they would want to be associated with those thanks. the length of time, it was right for this report to come This is a day of huge moment and deep emotion in forward today, after all these years. Does the Prime Derry. The people of my city did not just live through Minister agree that the chief priority, still, for Northern Bloody Sunday; they have lived with it since. Does the Ireland is its peace process and that all parties in Northern Prime Minister agree that this is a day to receive and Ireland must agree with that process and with the way reflect on the clear verdicts of Saville, and not to pass we go forward? Will he undertake to take personal party verdicts on Saville? charge of ensuring that that peace process continues, despite what he rightly calls the “shocking” revelations The key verdicts are: of this report? “despite the contrary evidence given by soldiers, we have concluded that none of them fired in response to attacks or threatened The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman served attacks by nail or petrol bombers. No one threw or threatened to with great distinction as Secretary of State for Northern throw a nail or petrol bomb at the soldiers on Bloody Sunday”. Ireland, and I know his commitment to the Province A further verdict is: and to the peace process. He is right to say that the “none of the casualties…was posing any threat of causing death peace process still needs to be given our priority. I was or serious injury.” keen to get to every part of the United Kingdom within Of course, there is also the verdict that the first 10 days or so of becoming Prime Minister, and I did go to Northern Ireland, where I met party leaders, “the British Army fired the first shots, these were not justified and the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. I am none of the subsequent shots that killed or wounded” sure that the right hon. Gentleman would agree, as a anyone on Bloody Sunday “was justified.” In rejecting former Secretary of State, that it is important for us to so much of the soldiers’ submissions and false accounts, give responsibility to our Secretaries of State and to the report highlights where victims were shot in the ensure that, in the first instance, they are leading the back or while crawling on the ground, or shot again process and making sure that the peace process moves when already wounded on the ground. forward—it is moving forward. It has been challenged Will the Prime Minister confirm that each and every many times over the past decade, and I am sure that one of the victims—Bernard McGuigan, 41; Gerald today will be another fresh challenge. But I hope that Donaghey, 17; Hugh Gilmour, 17; John Duddy, 17; the way that people respond to this report will make Gerard McKinney, 34; James Wray, 22; John Young, sure that, as I said in my statement, we can draw an 17; Kevin McElhinney, 17; Michael Kelly, 17; Michael end to this very painful chapter in Northern Ireland’s McDaid, 20; Patrick Doherty, 31; William McKinney, history. 27; William Nash, 19; and John Johnston, 59—are all absolutely and totally exonerated by today’s report, as Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con): are all the wounded? These men were cut down when Every soldier should be responsible for what actions he they marched for justice on their own streets. On that takes through the sight of a gun and every officer must civil rights march, they were protesting against internment bear responsibility for individual orders that they give, without trial, but not only were their lives taken, but as must members of the IRA and other terrorist their innocent memory was then interned without truth organisations. What steps will the Prime Minister take by the travesty of the Widgery tribunal. Will the Prime to make sure that the Saville inquiry report is used to Minister confirm clearly that the Widgery findings are draw a line under the past and ensure that peace remains now repudiated and binned, and that they should not in Northern Ireland, and is not used as a tool for be relied on by anyone as giving any verdict on that day? propaganda by politicians to hit each other over the head with? Sadly, only one parent of the victims has survived to see this day and hear the Prime Minister’s open and full apology on the back of this important report. Lawrence The Prime Minister: First, I know that my hon. McElhinney epitomises the dignity and determination Friend served in Northern Ireland in the Army, and I of all the families who have struggled and strived to pay tribute to that. I think that how people respond will exonerate their loved ones and have the truth proclaimed. be a matter for them. I cannot stop people—as he put it —hitting themselves or indeed even each other over the Seamus Heaney reflected the numbing shock of Bloody head with this report. What I hope can happen as a Sunday and its spur to the quest for justice for not only result of today, given the clarity of the report and the families but a city when he wrote: lack of equivocation, is that whatever side of the “My heart besieged by anger, my mind a gap of danger, argument—or whatever side—people have been on they I walked among their old haunts, the home ground where they will be able to draw a line under what happened and bled; recognise that very bad things happened on that day; it And in the dirt lay justice, like an acorn in the winter was not justified and it was not justifiable, and there is Till its oak would sprout in Derry where the thirteen men no point quibbling or arguing with that. As I said, of lay dead.” course people in Northern Ireland will go on looking The Bloody Sunday monument on Rossville street back to the past, because of the painful memories and proclaims: also because of the information that has not yet come out, but at the same time as doing that it must be “Their epitaph is in the continuing struggle for democracy”. possible to look to the future. In my view, Northern If today, as I sincerely hope it does, offers a healing of Ireland has a very bright future. history in Derry and Ireland, may we pray that it also 747 Saville Inquiry15 JUNE 2010 Saville Inquiry 748 speaks hope to those in other parts of the world who strong point that he makes is that the Good Friday are burdened by injustice, conflict and the transgressions agreement included clauses that were incredibly painful of unaccountable power? for people on all sides to cope with. The idea that The Prime Minister’s welcome statement and the someone who had murdered—and, as my hon. Friend statement that will be made by the families on the steps said, murdered perhaps more than once—would serve of the Guildhall will be the most significant records of only two years in prison was incredibly painful for this day on the back of the report that has been published. people to understand, but these things had to be done However, perhaps the most important and poignant to try to end the long-running conflict and to bring words from today will not be heard here or on the people to pursue their goals by peaceful means. That is airwaves. Relatives will stand at the graves of victims what the peace process is about. and their parents to tell of a travesty finally arrested, of In terms of making a contrast between that and what innocence vindicated and of promises kept, and as they soldiers have done, I am very clear that we should not do so, they can invoke the civil rights anthem when they try to draw an equivalence between what terrorists have say, “We have overcome. We have overcome this day.” done and what soldiers have done, because soldiers are operating under the law—operating for a Government. The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman spoke with We should not draw equivalence. On the issue of great power and great emotion on behalf of his constituents prosecutions, I can only repeat what I said to the Leader and his city, and I would like to pay tribute to the way in of the Opposition, and I also make the point that it is which he did that, and to the service that he has given to important that I do not say anything today that would them. He spoke about the healing of history, and I hope prejudice either a criminal prosecution or, indeed, a and believe that he will be right. I know that he represents civil action, were one to be brought. many of the families who lost loved ones that day, and Let me end, again, on the point about the painful he has always fought for them in a way that is honourable decisions that had to be made in the peace process. We and right, and has always, in spite of all the difficulties, all, particularly on the Conservative side of the House, stood up for the peace process and for peaceful means. know people who have been affected. The first person I To answer the hon. Gentleman’s specific questions, ever wrote a speech for was Ian Gow, who was murdered he is right that the Widgery report is now fully superseded by the IRA. It is incredibly painful and difficult for by the Saville report; this is the report with the facts, the people to put behind them what happened in the past, details and the full explanation of what happened, and but we have to if we are to make the peace process work. it should be accepted as such. In terms of the people who were killed on that day, they were innocent of Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): anything that justified them being shot; that is quite I thank the Prime Minister for his statement, and of clear from the report. Let me read it again: course it will take some time fully to divulge the contents “none of the casualties was posing a threat of causing death or of the Saville inquiry. The events of 30 January will live serious injury, or indeed was doing anything else that could on with the surviving relatives for the rest of their lives. any view justify their shooting.” Thousands of other surviving relatives have had to do That is what Saville has found. I hope that that is some likewise. They have had no costly inquiries and no comfort to the families, and to the people in Londonderry media interest, and there have been 10,000 other bloody who have suffered for so many years over the issue, and days in Northern Ireland’s recent history. Murder and that, as the hon. Gentleman says, we can now draw a mayhem were caused by the Provisional IRA in the line, look to the future and build Northern Ireland as a days, weeks and months before Bloody Sunday. Indeed, prosperous part of the United Kingdom. the two police officers whom the Prime Minister mentioned were murdered in the immediate vicinity of the march Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): May I just three days before that march. I am glad the Prime congratulate not only the Prime Minister but the Leader Minister mentioned them today on the Floor of the of the Opposition on their opening statements today, House, because Lord Saville did not. That is an unfortunate which, I have to say, were two of the most statesmanlike and deeply regrettable omission. contributions I have heard on any subject in more than We did not need a £200 million inquiry to establish 13 years in this House? that there was no premeditated plan to shoot civilians On the question of possible prosecutions, may I draw on that day. We did not need a report of such length to to the House’s attention one fact? There was a sniper on tell us that as a result of IRA actions before Bloody the IRA side who killed something like two dozen Sunday, parts of the city “lay in ruins”. Many have said British soldiers, but who was arrested only a relatively that the difference between Bloody Sunday and the short time before the Good Friday agreement was other atrocities that I have alluded to was that Bloody concluded. As a result of that man’s conviction, he Sunday was carried out by state forces, whereas other received a very long sentence, but served only a very murders were carried out by terrorists. short sentence. Should it not be borne in mind that that There has been no similar inquiry into the financing man, after all he did, is now out on the streets, a free of the Provisional IRA at the inception of that organisation man, before anybody starts calling for prosecutions of by another state—the Irish Republic. That Irish state people, even though they did very wrong things a very acted as a midwife at the birth of an organisation long time ago? responsible for murdering many thousands of UK citizens. Soldiers answered questions in the course of the The Prime Minister: May I thank my hon. Friend for Saville inquiry. The 2IC of the Provisional IRA, Martin what he said about the statements by me and the Leader McGuinness, appears not to have answered questions. of the Opposition? I know that he cares deeply about The public will want to know from today what he was this issue, too. What I would say to him about the very doing with a Thompson sub-machine-gun on the day of 749 Saville Inquiry15 JUNE 2010 Saville Inquiry 750

[Mr Gregory Campbell] but lived with it. That is the point, and that is the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Bloody Sunday. Does the Prime Minister agree that the Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) makes. sorry saga of the report is finally over and done with, In terms of going to Northern Ireland, I am keen that and that we should look forward, rather than looking as Prime Minister I should visit Northern Ireland regularly, back? and as I said, I have already been there in the relatively early days of my being Prime Minister. My right hon. The Prime Minister: I agree that we should look Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland was forward rather than back, and I hope the report will in Londonderry two weeks ago and met the families, enable us to do that. Of course the hon. Gentleman and he has plans to go back and do that again. I know is right to refer, as I did in my statement, to the that many people support Derry’s bid to be the European 1,000 members of the Army and security services who city of culture, and that is another part of the healing lost their lives during the troubles, and all that they did process in closing that painful chapter around the past. to try to keep Northern Ireland safe and secure. Of course he is right to refer to the many thousands of Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): I thank the families who have lost loved ones through terrorism and Prime Minister for his very considered and thoughtful who have not had an answer and have not had an comments in respect of this particularly sensitive report. inquiry into what happened to their loved ones. When it Since Bloody Sunday the families have had to live with comes to answering questions, yes, it is important that not only the consequences of what unfolded in that IRA members and people who were responsible for short period, but the consequences of the many speculative things, even now come forward and answer so that reports and so on, which were produced following the people can at least bury those whom they lost. Of events and which compounded their pain. So I am glad course that is important. that, today, this report would seem to be a start in I hope, as well, that the hon. Gentleman will understand delivering for them the truth that they required and, I that there is something about Bloody Sunday—about hope, the justice that they needed to be able to rebuild the fact that 13 people were shot by British Army their lives. soldiers and died on that day—that necessitated a proper The tragic events of that afternoon clearly and irrevocably inquiry. That is what the report today is about. Yes, we changed the direction and course of the lives of people must come up with the answers to other people’s questions who were immediately affected by it, but it also cast a and yes, we have to go through with the historical very long shadow over the society in which all of us live. inquiries team to try to settle those issues of the past, Therefore I seek the Prime Minister’s assurances that, but let us not pretend that there is not something about given how polarising the incident has been throughout that day, Bloody Sunday, that needed to be answered politics and society in Northern Ireland, he will listen clearly in a way that can allow those families—all those carefully to all the voices surrounding it, give people people—to lay to rest what happened on that day. time to consider the content of the report fully and encourage them to take the time to read it in full before Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) reaching conclusions on it. Can he also reassure us that (LD): I thank the Prime Minister for his courageous he will deal with the Northern Ireland Executive and and honourable statement and, through him, Lord Saville discuss with the Ministers there who have responsibility for a very clear and unequivocal report which has, at for individual victims how he intends to take forward last, answered the questions to which 27 families have the wider project of dealing with the legacy of the past? been waiting for answers for so long. Does the Prime Minister agree that, given that the truth is the precondition The Prime Minister: First, may I take this opportunity of closure, justice and reconciliation, we now have the to congratulate the hon. Lady on her election victory as best possible way to move on because we have, at last, the new Alliance MP for Belfast East? What she said the truth about all those events on that terrible day? was extremely sensible. The report is comprehensive Does the Prime Minister have any plans, when we and people should take time to study it, but it will take have all had a chance to digest the report, to go to time for them to engage properly with all the information. Northern Ireland and to Derry not just to express the Our key aim was to try to get it out as fast as we could in solidarity of the whole House with the people there, a reasonable way, to give the families and others advance and to confirm our support for the troops who for so sight of it and to try to publish it in one go properly. long did honourable things in the name of the democratic Mercifully, for a report as complicated and detailed as Government, but to encourage the families of the bereaved this, there have been relatively few leaks, and I hope that and all those who, since that day in Derry and beyond, people can see it, read it and fully engage with it. have worked so hard to make sure that Northern Ireland The hon. Lady says that people should read the will never again have the terrible past that it had, but report, but I also recommend the summary document, always have the prosperous democratic future which which is some 60 pages long and incredibly clear. That is events such as Bloody Sunday made much more difficult, why I reached my conclusion about there being no but which, in spite of adversity, so many people, including equivocation. When one reads the summary, whatever the women of Northern Ireland, did so much to achieve? preconceived ideas one brings to the whole area and to what happened, one is given an incredibly clear sense of The Prime Minister: I certainly agree. This is about what happened and how wrong it was. I hope that, trying to heal the wounds of the past. As the hon. whatever side of the argument people come from, a Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan)—the former leader report as clear as this will help them to come to terms of the Social Democratic and Labour party, who represents with the past, because it puts matters beyond doubt. In so many of the families in his constituency—put it, that way, as I said, I think that the truth can help to free people in Londonderry have not just lived through it, people from their preconceived ideas. 751 Saville Inquiry15 JUNE 2010 Saville Inquiry 752

Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con): My right Bloody Sunday clearly was, more than 1,000 members hon. Friend the Prime Minister said at the beginning of of the security forces lost their lives during the years of his statement that that period of the 1970s was something the troubles? that people of his generation had learned about. In the period between 1971 and 1975, we lost more members The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right; over of the British Army than we have during the past four 1,000 people—from the security services, the Army, years in Afghanistan, such was the bleakness of the the police and other services—lost their lives. Also, troubles in Northern Ireland. 250,000 people served in the Army in Northern Ireland during Operation Banner. Those of us who have not I was born in the Royal Victoria hospital on the Falls served in the Army cannot possibly know how tough it road in Belfast in the latter part of the year that the must be to be on duty on the streets, faced with violence events unfolded in Derry/Londonderry, and the events and the threats of violence. It is worth remembering in Northern Ireland at that time shaped very many of what service those people all gave and what restraint, in us. One of the great joys of returning to Northern almost every case, they showed. Ireland today is talking to young people, in their teens, I was speaking to my right hon. Friend the Member for whom even the most recent events of the troubles for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith), themselves are something that they study and do not who served in Londonderry, in Derry, a year after remember. Does my right hon. Friend agree that if civic Bloody Sunday. He rightly made the point to me that leaders and politicians in Northern Ireland take the the pressures that we put on our often very young lead of the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), this soldiers were huge, and we should pay tribute to all could be a cleansing opportunity of historic proportions, those who served for what they did. But it is not in their whereby the process of normalisation in Northern Ireland interests, and nor is it in our interests, to try to gloss can continue and young people will never have to go over what happened on that dreadful day. The report back to the dark days of the 1970s? enables us to face up to what happened and to accept what happened, and that is the best way of moving on The Prime Minister: I hope that my hon. Friend is and accounting for the past. right. As I said, I think that the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) spoke extremely clearly and passionately, Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): First of and there should be a chance of working for a shared all, I thank the Prime Minister for bringing forward the future. That is what we want in Northern Ireland. very welcome statement on the Saville report today. I thank the members of the Opposition who brought the The point that my hon. Friend makes is right. Every report to this point today. year—every month—that goes by with the peace process Given the very personal tragedy of Bloody Sunday working and without a return to violence further embeds for the families of the bereaved and wounded and the a culture in which we do things by political means and major political implications that this serious incident we get normal politics in Northern Ireland. That is had for the people of Derry, the wider community of what we should be aiming for, and it is certainly what Northern Ireland over the last 38 years and the wider we shall try to do. island of Ireland, could the Prime Minister tell us about the parameters and context of the debate and the Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): The Prime possible time scale of the assessment and report from Minister and my right hon. and learned Friend the the Secretaries of State for Defence and for Northern Leader of the Opposition both spoke with great sensitivity Ireland? Will he also give consideration to possible and balance this afternoon. In that spirit, does the measures of redress for the families in Derry following Prime Minister agree that any action taken against the exoneration of the victims by the Saville report? In former members of the armed services subsequent to that debate, could wider consideration be given to the the Saville report should be carried out in the interests Ballymurphy families, who also experienced a lot of of justice and not vengeance? distress and pain because the Parachute Regiment, some five months earlier, was involved in those incidents, The Prime Minister: The short answer to that is yes. which resulted in the wounding, but above all the killing, These matters should be determined independently by of 10 people? the Director of Public Prosecutions in the correct way. The Prime Minister: I thank the hon. Lady for her One of the things that should mark us out is that these questions and congratulate her on becoming leader of things should happen only in the interests of justice and the Social Democratic and Labour party and on her not in the interests of vengeance. I am sure that that is election as Member of Parliament for South Down. what will happen. I set out the position to the right hon. She asked several questions. First, on how long the and learned Lady. Government’s assessment will take, the report is very long and detailed, and we want to take the summer to Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): I should like to thank consider it and come back to the debate in the autumn, the Prime Minister and the right hon. and learned Lady when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State can for their measured contributions. On other days, soldiers answer questions more fully and make announcements, who had been based at the Colchester garrison lost if appropriate. their lives in Northern Ireland. In 1987, I spent three On redress, I do not think that today is the day to talk days with 3rd Battalion the Royal Anglian Regiment on about such matters; today is the day to consider the duty in Belfast and was full of admiration for their report and take it all in. As the hon. Lady knows, courage and bravery, because they faced the prospect of perhaps better than anyone, the families have been being shot at by fellow British citizens. I wonder whether involved in a search for the truth rather than for recompense the Prime Minister will confirm that awful though or redress. However, all those issues need to be examined. 753 Saville Inquiry15 JUNE 2010 Saville Inquiry 754

[The Prime Minister] prejudice any potential prosecutions. If it would help, I can repeat the Attorney-General’s clear advice about My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has people not prejudicing their own potential proceedings. meetings with the Ballymurphy families. The first port On the campaign, yes, I pay tribute to people who of call should be the historical inquiries team. It is campaigned because the report in some ways justifies doing good work, going through all the issues of the itself to those who wanted a clear, truthful and accurate past and trying to settle them as best it can. We want to answer. In the report, they have something very clear avoid other such open-ended, highly costly inquiries. and accurate that cannot be quibbled with. We cannot rule out for ever that there will be no other form of inquiry, but let us allow the historical inquiries Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): team to do its very good work. Having read the summary report of Saville, the Prime Minister talks about it bringing out the truth, but is not Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): I the difficulty that we have the truth on one side but not congratulate my right hon. Friend on the balance that the truth on the other? Of Martin McGuinness, the he has achieved in the statement. It is important to report states: recognise not only the truths of the Saville inquiry, but the sacrifice and the grief of the forces, who played such “The question remains as to what Martin McGuinness was doing” an important part in bringing peace to Northern Ireland. May I suggest that if the inquiry and the report are to that day. We do not know the truth about what Martin be a true marker in helping the healing process and the McGuinness and the IRA were doing that day, and the peace process to move forward, it is terribly important problem is that while we regret every death in Northern to keep that balance in one’s remarks and perspective Ireland—they are all personal tragedies—we must not about the sacrifice on both sides? lose sight of the need for balance, as other hon. Members have said. I can well remember hearing the two explosions The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for his at Narrow Water close to my home in South Down comments. As I tried to say in my statement, we should when I was a child, when 18 members of the Parachute pay tribute—I do so again—to the 250,000 of our Regiment were cut down in cold blood by the Provisional fellow countrymen who served in Northern Ireland IRA. No one was ever convicted of their murders. If we with great distinction, often in great personal danger. are to have the truth and a quest for justice, it should We should pay tribute to all those who were injured, apply right across the board, and not just in a small nub. who suffered and who lost their lives. It was incredibly tough and difficult work but necessary not just to The Prime Minister: Let me say to the right hon. maintain the rule of law, but to make possible what we Gentleman that I absolutely want us to get to the truth have now: the peace process. It would not have happened on all of those dreadful murders. As I said, ought without that service. However, we do the forces no former paramilitaries to come forward and give information service if we try to gloss over the dreadful events set out so that we can clear up murders and so that people can in the report. I am sure that serving and retired members bury their loved ones properly? Yes, they should—absolutely. of the armed forces, as well as people on the Benches I can see members of the SDLP nodding at that. behind me or, indeed, in front of me, who served in the As for Martin McGuinness, he must answer for himself armed forces, want the truth about the events to be out on the evidence he gave to the inquiry. Let me read the there. That is the right thing to do. We honour the relevant paragraph: British Army—we should put it at the front and centre “In the end we were left in some doubt as to his movements on of our national life and celebrate what it does—but we the day. Before the soldiers of Support Company went into the do it no service if we do not look properly and in detail Bogside he was probably armed with a Thompson sub-machine at things when they go wrong. gun, and though it is possible that he fired this weapon, there is insufficient evidence to make any finding on this, save that we are Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I thank the sure that he did not engage in any activity that provided any of Prime Minister for his statement and the previous the soldiers with any justification for opening fire.” Government for having the courage to establish the The right hon. Gentleman is right that in the end, we inquiry in the first place. Will he acknowledge that the want the truth to come out about all the murders, and inquiry came about only because of very brave campaigning we want to know all the information, but in respect of for many years by Irish people, throughout Ireland and the Government’s responsibility for bringing clarity on over here, who often got much press opprobrium for Bloody Sunday, I think Lord Saville has done us a doing so? I am unclear about what happens next and service. I think people from all parts of Northern Ireland, whether there are to be further investigations or prosecutions from all parts of all communities, should welcome the of those who committed those acts of murder on the fact that although we might not have clarity on everything streets of Derry, or whether that will be left to the that happened, we have clarity on one bad thing that Director of Public Prosecutions. I realise that it is did happen. Let us not make that a reason for not difficult for the Prime Minister to answer all that today, welcoming the clarity of what has been said today. but does he expect to be able to give us clearer guidance in the debate in the autumn? Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab): I congratulate the Prime Minister on the clarity with The Prime Minister: Let me try to answer the hon. which he has set out, in his words today, the Government Gentleman as clearly as I can. Prosecutions are a matter view on the publication of the Saville report. Does for the DPP, and that is right. We cannot have inquiry he agree that as this report is digested and looked at judges or politicians trying to order prosecutions. Indeed, in great detail—difficult though that may be—across all we must be careful about what we say so that we do not communities in Northern Ireland, what really matters 755 Saville Inquiry15 JUNE 2010 Saville Inquiry 756 for the future of Northern Ireland and all its people in sometimes means—as he and I know—burying very all its communities, is reconciliation, leaving the past painful memories about the past so that we can try to behind and moving to a new and brighter future for build a future. Northern Ireland? David Cairns (Inverclyde) (Lab): Does the Prime The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady is right that what Minister recall that in the last Stormont elections the we really want is reconciliation and working for a single biggest issue by a long way for both sides of the shared future, and everyone working across all communities community was water charges and rates? Does not to put the past behind them, but I think we all know that demonstrate that in many ways the majority of the that there is still some work to be done on the past, people of Northern Ireland have already moved on because loved ones remain unburied and murders remain from the troubles that dominated so much of the past? unsolved. That is what the historical inquiries team is Is it not important that on a day like today, when there to do. We have to try to do those things at the emotions will understandably run high, we do not same time. We must uncover and come to terms with lose sight of the fact that the majority of people in what happened in the past in a way that can allow Northern Ireland are today concerned about the same families to move on, but at the same time we must issues about which his constituents and my constituents recognise that Northern Ireland’s shared future will be are concerned? That is a good thing and it represents about economic growth and people working together, progress. whatever tradition they come from. The Prime Minister: I completely agree with the hon. Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I am Gentleman. One of the great prizes of the peace process sure the Prime Minister would not like to support a would be for Northern Ireland to experience politics in hierarchy of victimhood. On 17 January 1992, eight the same way as the rest of us in the United Kingdom innocent civilian construction workers at Teebane were where it is about knocking on doors and talking about murdered by the Provisional IRA, and six others were the health service, schools and water rates. That is what seriously injured. On 9 April 1991, my cousin Derek politics should be about, and there is a chance of that was gunned down and his child was left to put his happening. It was great to go to Northern Ireland as fingers into the holes where the blood was coming out Prime Minister without the normal security paraphernalia to try to stop his father dying. On 7 February 1976, my that previous visits involved, so we are making progress. two cousins were brutally murdered—one boy, 16, and That is what politics in Northern Ireland should become. his sister, 21, on the day she was engaged to be married. The more that happens, the more people will find it Therefore I say this to the Prime Minister: no one has unthinkable to go back to the days that came before. ever been charged for any of those murders, and there have been no inquiries. Countless others, including Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): Thirty-eight years is 211 Royal Ulster Constabulary members, were also too long for any bereaved family to wait for justice and murdered. Saville says: today’s report is a historic step on the long road to “None” permanent peace and reconciliation in Northern Ireland. of the casualties Does the Prime Minister agree that today’s report will be welcomed by the families who have campaigned for “was posing any threat of causing death or serious injury”, so long for justice for the 13 men and boys who died on but that could be said of Teebane, of Derek, of Robert that day? and of Rachel. How do we get closure, how do we get justice, and how do we get the truth? The Prime Minister: I hope that the families will welcome the report, and I know that they are gathered The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman rightly in Derry today. I know that they will have been watching speaks with great power and emotion about how people our proceedings and will have read the report—they on all sides in Northern Ireland have suffered, and had access to it in advance of its publication. As I have people in the community that he represents have suffered said, nothing that anyone can write or say will bring particularly badly. Some horrific things have happened back those who were killed, but I was very struck by a to people completely unconnected with politics—people remark by one of the relatives, quoted in a newspaper who are innocent on every single level—and there is this morning, that the truth can help to set you free. If nothing that you can do to explain to someone who lost you have been living with something for 38 years without a loved one in that way that there is any logic, fairness any answers, the answers do not end the grief, but they or sense in that loss. The hon. Gentleman asks how we do give you a chance to learn what happened and try to achieve closure on such matters. There is no easy therefore bring some closure to those dreadful events. way, but we have the Historical Enquiries Team, which goes through case after case, and if it finds the evidence, Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): Following prosecutions can take place. the eloquent contribution from my hon. Friend the I hope that the inquiry report published today will Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea), one wishes give some closure to those families from Londonderry, that on a day such as today the House had time to hear but one way for families who have suffered to gain more the names of everybody who died in tragic circumstances closure about the past is for terrorists or former terrorists in Northern Ireland. It has been said that this report to come forward and give information about those could lead to closure and cleansing, but it is difficult crimes. However, in the end, we have to move forward to see how that could happen if this report is used and we have to accept that dreadful things happened. as a springboard for more years of agitation about We do not want to return to those days, and that prosecutions over events that happened 38 years ago. If 757 Saville Inquiry15 JUNE 2010 Saville Inquiry 758

[Mr Nigel Dodds] Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): Like the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and my hon. Friend there are prosecutions, presumably they might include the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell), I prosecution for the possession of illegal firearms, for hope that this is the end of a matter that has bedevilled example. and poisoned Northern Ireland’s politics for so long. Would it not be a true testament to all this if the However, will the Prime Minister take this opportunity Prime Minister were to announce today that the HET, and dismiss completely, from the Dispatch Box, claims which he has mentioned on several occasions, will be by commentators that this inquiry has been a war given anything like the same level of funding given to crimes tribunal, and that the people in the dock have this inquiry? The HET has been grossly underfunded been the British citizens of Northern Ireland? Such a compared to this inquiry. The thousands of other victims shameful slur on us citizens is intolerable and wrong, who demand justice are looking to the HET and other and serves only to perpetuate that poison through the such forums to achieve it. Will he today guarantee that veins of the body politic in Northern Ireland. the same emphasis will be given to those victims as has Furthermore, can the Prime Minister be less ambiguous been given to innocent people otherwise? on the matter of future inquiries? He said in his statement that there will be no more costly inquiries, but in answer The Prime Minister: I hope that the report will not be to the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie), he used as a springboard for further inquiries or action. It said that he cannot rule out all inquiries. Which is it is supposed to help by delivering the truth and helping to be? If we cannot rule out all inquiries, there are to achieve closure—that is what it should be about. The 211 RUC officers who have been murdered and their hon. Gentleman asked about the Historical Enquiries killers have never been brought to justice, and there has Team, the funding of which, as he knows, is about been no inquiry into those murders. Indeed, more than £34 million—much less than the cost of the Saville 3,000 people killed in Northern Ireland have not yet inquiry. However, I think that everyone accepts that the had justice. What is it going to be? cost of that inquiry was huge—£100 million was spent on lawyers alone. While acknowledging, as I have done, The Prime Minister: First, let me welcome the hon. that it is a full, clear and unequivocal—and, in that Gentleman to his place in the House. He is right: this is respect, a good—report, I am sure that even the former not, as he said, a war crimes tribunal—that would be an Government would have recognised that lessons needed appalling thing to say—but an inquiry into what happened. to be learned about cost control. That is why there was It is an inquiry to get to the truth of the events of that the Inquiries Act 2005 to replace the 1921 arrangements. day and the events surrounding it. I meant what I said The issue of the HET is now a devolved issue, and about no more costly open-minded inquiries. We should I would add that in opposition we supported the generous not have more open-ended and costly inquiries. I want funding settlement for the devolved Administration to to support the work of the Historical Enquiries Team. cover such areas. That is the right way to go about things. Of course, we can never say never about any other form of inquiry, however big or small, but my strong intention is to use Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) the Historical Enquiries Team process to get to the (Lab): Speaking as someone of Northern Irish heritage bottom of the events of the past. That is the right way and representing a constituency with large numbers of to go about things. the Irish diaspora, I welcome the publication—finally—and I know that this is probably unparliamentary, but clarity of the Saville report. I also thank the hon. may I welcome the other Ian Paisley, who is in the Members for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and for South Gallery and whom we remember so fondly sitting in this Antrim (Dr McCrea) for the moving way in which they House? Let me just say this. Everyone has had to take addressed the House today. However, although the report big risks for peace in Northern Ireland, and no more so has clarity, does the Prime Minister agree that there are than the Big Man, as they like to call him. We should all times when truth and justice do not necessarily go recognise that people in this process have known so together? many victims of terrorism and so much suffering, and everyone has had to take risks and make movements in The Prime Minister: I echo what the hon. Lady said order to bring the peace process about, and that will about the Members who have spoken today. On truth continue to be true. Even today, as we remember the and justice going together, without wanting to write a painful memories of the past, we still have to say, “Yes, I whole essay, it seems to me that a very important part of remember those things—I don’t forget them for a second— the justice that people in Northern Ireland seek is but that doesn’t mean we don’t work together for a having the truth about what happened out in the open. shared future for Northern Ireland.” People in the city of Londonderry want that transparency and accountability, and many Democratic Unionist Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): Members want the same for their constituents who have I wish particularly to thank the Prime Minister for his suffered in the same way. Having the truth out about frank apology on behalf of the Government and the what happened does not bring back relatives and loved-ones, people of this country. I think that the hon. Member for but it at least enables people to understand what happened; Foyle (Mark Durkan) will accept that that will in some and it enables prosecutions to be brought forward, if way be a salve for the people in the Bloody Sunday that is the right thing to do. However, I repeat that it incident and the families of the dead. However, does the must be for independent prosecuting authorities to take Prime Minister accept that unless people can see the those decisions—we must not get into a situation where names and know the people who carried out the acts, politicians nudge the prosecuting authorities in one for many of the families there may not be a way of direction or another in that sort of way. putting the incident behind them, as I found out from 759 Saville Inquiry15 JUNE 2010 Saville Inquiry 760 my contact with the families of those who were killed in can see peace and peaceful progress. In a way, that is McGurk’s bar? I hope that he will consider that, not in what it was all about, difficult as it was. I had Martin terms of what will happen with the prosecutions or McGuinness sitting opposite me at the Cabinet table in anything else, but because people must know who carried No. 10 Downing street; it was difficult, but it was right, out those acts. because peace is so much better than the alternatives. Finally, will the Prime Minister look in the longer term at the role of the intelligence forces in possibly Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): May I thank the preconditioning people in the armed forces for what Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition for happened on Bloody Sunday? Those dark forces are the statements that they have made today and, indeed, clearly at work in the British Army, and we must not for the apologies that they have given on behalf of the allow them to hide. present Government and of the Opposition? The Prime Minister is absolutely right to say that there cannot be The Prime Minister: I do not agree with the hon. costly inquiries of this kind in the future, but does he Gentleman’s description of “dark forces” in the armed also agree that there can be no more whitewashes such forces. The report is clear that there was no conspiracy— as Widgery, when inquiries into these incidents take there was no premeditation, there was no plan, and it is place? Finally, does he agree that it is essential for all of not right to say that there was. He should read the us, as politicians and leaders, in responding to the summary of the report and what it says about not just inquiry, to pursue truth and reconciliation rather than the politicians, but the senior officers who were involved. blame and recrimination? That is important. The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is right Let me address the hon. Gentleman’s other point. As about the inquiries. Standing back from it all, however, for the anonymity of the soldiers, that was part of the I would say that we can take some pride—as can the Saville process and what was agreed in order that the former Government—in the fact that, in the end, the evidence should be given and the truth should be got at. British state has gone to huge lengths to get to the truth Let me say this about apologies, because I know that about what happened on Bloody Sunday, and that an some people are—in some ways, I think, rightly—cynical earlier report from an earlier inquiry has effectively about politicians standing up and apologising for things been laid aside and replaced by a much fuller and that happened when they were five years old. I do not clearer one. Not many states in the world would do that, do so in any way lightly; it just seems to me that it is and I think that we should see it as a sign of strength clear that what happened was wrong—that what the that we have done it. soldiers did was wrong—and that the Government should take responsibility. The Government of that day are no Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): May I also longer around, so it falls to the Government of this day thank the Prime Minister for the painful honesty of his to make that apology. I do not believe in casting back statement? I salute him for that. In respect of the into history and endlessly doing that, but on this occasion families, he is absolutely right to talk about issues of it is absolutely clear that it is the right thing to do. redress being for another time. However, this is a very raw day for the families. Will he assure the House that Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con): As a former soldier he, his Government and the Northern Ireland Office are who served in Northern Ireland, I found today’s statement doing everything possible to provide advice, assistance a difficult one to listen to. Listening to it was nearly as and access to those friends, families and neighbours difficult as watching mass murderers leave prison free or who have never forgotten what happened in 1972 but watching some very interesting people come to power in who are today being reminded almost unbearably of it? Northern Ireland, but those are all things that we did to facilitate peace and reconciliation. There is a possibility The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes a of revenge taking over from justice in this case, so we very good point. It has been a difficult day for the must ensure that we get the balance right and continue families; it has been a difficult 38 years for them. We to pursue peace and reconciliation. thought very carefully about this, and we wanted to build on the arrangements that were put in place by the The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend puts it extremely right hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston well. Today’s statement is a difficult statement: it was a (Mr Woodward) when he was Northern Ireland Secretary difficult statement to make and a difficult statement to to ensure that the families could see the report some listen to, because it contains some uncomfortable truths hours in advance of its publication today, and in a way for people who, like me, are deeply patriotic, love the in which all their needs would properly be met, because British Army, love what it stands for, revere what it has this is an incredibly stressful document for them to done down the ages and have seen what it does in read. I pay tribute to the former Northern Ireland Afghanistan. It is incredibly painful to say what has Secretary for what he did to put those arrangements in been said today, but we do not serve the Army if we do place, and to my right hon. Friend the current Secretary not say it. of State for Northern Ireland for what he has done to I mentioned Ian Gow, who was the first MP I ever build on them, as well as for meeting the families, as he worked for. I also think of Airey Neave, the first MP to has done, and for offering to meet them again in the represent me, who was blown up in the precincts of this future, which he will also do. Palace by Irish terrorists. This is incredibly painful, but my hon. Friend is right: we have to make these leaps in Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ order to make the peace process work. I think that Co-op): I welcome the Prime Minister’s statement and, former soldiers will understand that the service they particularly, his commitment to a day’s debate on the gave in Northern Ireland is worth more now that they report in the autumn. May I urge him and his Cabinet 761 Saville Inquiry 15 JUNE 2010 762

[Tom Greatrex] Points of Order colleagues, between now and the autumn, to encourage 4.49 pm everyone to consider the report, and the issues that it Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): On a point of raises for all communities, reflectively and with maturity, order, Mr Speaker. Are you aware that the report that so that we can get the benefit of all the efforts that have we have just discussed is not available to Members of gone into producing it? the House? Would it not be appropriate, if we are to have a proper debate on the matter, to have full copies The Prime Minister: Yes, I can do that. The hon. of the report distributed to us? Gentleman makes a good point, which is that people Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for will want to study the report in detail. The scale of it is his point of order and for airing the concern that he and enormous. I have brought in only one of the eight or ten others might feel on this matter. I think that the House volumes— is aware of the special conditions that have obtained in relation to this report and of the arrangements made The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen for advance sight under controlled conditions for it to Paterson): Ten. be read. I certainly think it important—I hope this helps the hon. Gentleman—that all Members should The Prime Minister: This is just one of the 10 volumes have sufficient time to study the report fully before a that have been published today. People will want to take debate takes place. Even though the hon. Gentleman is time to read them. In a way, I am sorry that the debate is a new Member, he has taken the opportunity to raise not until the autumn, but it is probably right to give the this point of order in a very timely way in the presence Government, the families and others time to assess of senior people who, I feel sure, will have taken note of what is in the report and to come back with sensible what he has said. proposals, where necessary, on how to deal with them. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I hesitate and only tentatively raise this point order with you, but it has previously been the practice in the House that where a statement is made, hon. Members wishing to ask questions about it should be present at the beginning and standing throughout that statement, and preference is then usually given to those who are. Has there been any change to existing practice on that? Mr Speaker: There has been no change, and I would want to say to the hon. Gentleman that I do not want to travel down that route. If I were an uncharitable and ungenerous fellow and of an unusually suspicious frame of mind, none of which things is true, I would think that the hon. Gentleman was challenging the judgment of the Chair as to who to call. Kevin Brennan indicated dissent. Mr Speaker: As I am none of those things, however, and because the hon. Gentleman shakes his head in disavowal, I am happy to accept that that is not so. I look very carefully to see who is trying to contribute, and, as I think the record shows, I try, subject to limitations of time, to accommodate everybody who wishes to do so. It is probably worth saying that this statement ran longer than I would ordinarily allow a statement to run, but I think that colleagues will appreciate that there were very special reasons for doing so today. 763 15 JUNE 2010 Business of the House 764

Business of the House 4.54 pm Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): I, too, welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It 4.52 pm seems that north-west England is now very well represented The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of in the Chair, which is a very good thing. the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): I beg to I am astonished that the Leader of the House has move, tabled a programme motion relating to important changes That, at today’s sitting, the Speaker shall put the Questions in the business of the House, given that Conservative necessary to dispose of proceedings on the Motions in the name Members argued against programme motions on many of Sir George Young relating to Backbench Business Committee, occasions when in opposition. It seems that things Election of Backbench Business Committee, Backbench Business change. (Amendment of Standing Orders), Westminster Hall (Amendment of Standing Orders), Topical Debates (Amendments of Standing Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Has my hon. Orders), Pay for Chairs of Select Committees, Backbench Business Friend noticed that many of the Members who used to Committee (Review), September Sittings, Business of the House stand up and say how awful such motions were do not (Private Members’ Bills), Deferred Divisions (Timing), Select Committees (Membership), Select Committees (Machinery of appear to be taking part in today’s debate? Government Change) and Sittings of the House not later than 9.30 pm; such Questions shall include the Questions on any Barbara Keeley: That is an interesting observation. Amendments selected by the Speaker which may then be moved; It was right that today we were given a considerable proceedings may continue after the moment of interruption; and amount of time on the Floor of the House to discuss Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply. the statement on the Saville inquiry, but it also important It is important that we facilitate finally reaching for us now to have adequate time in which to debate decisions on the large number of matters before us in changes in the business of the House. We have already the motions on the Order Paper today. That is the heard a point of order indicating the seriousness with purpose of the motion—to enable us not to defer which one Member takes the issue. matters to another day, not to have matters continuing During business questions last week the shadow Leader into the future. of the House, my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster Central (Ms Winterton), drew attention to Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): On a the lack of consultation with the Opposition on the point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We are in a position details of the changes before the motions were tabled. I today where we are discussing motions that will effectively am sure that the Deputy Leader of the House is aware exclude Plaid Cymru Members from being a member of that it has been customary for the Opposition to be the Welsh Affairs Select Committee and Scottish National given advance sight of proposals on House business. party Members from being on the Scottish Affairs That happened throughout all the discussions on reform Select Committee. Additionally, there will be no room of the House and the Wright Committee, but it is a for those parties’ Back-Bench Members to sit on the courtesy that the coalition Government seem now to Back-Bench business committee. What kind of motions have abandoned, and I regret that. are these? What is the point behind them? I urge the We want to move on. A large number of amendments Minister to take them away and think them through, as have been tabled to the motions, and it is only right for these motions will not stand the test of time, and the us to have time to debate them fully. people in Wales and Scotland will be furious when they find out. 4.56 pm Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I thank Mr Llwyd Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): I welcome for his point of order, which is not a point of order. you to the Chair, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Sufficient amendments have been selected to allow him During the nine years that I have been in the House, I to make his points. have listened to Conservative Members objecting to programme motions and guillotines as though they Mr Heath: Of course, the sooner we can dispose of were the wicked invention of a terrible Labour Government. the business of the House motion, the sooner we can The business of the House motion lists the motions on move on to the important debates on the membership today’s Order Paper: of Select Committees. “Backbench Business Committee, Election of Backbench Business Committee, Backbench Business (Amendment of Standing I should like to welcome you to the Chair, Mr Deputy Orders),Westminster Hall (Amendment of Standing Orders), Topical Speaker, as I do not think I have had the opportunity to Debates (Amendments of Standing Orders), Pay for Chairs of do so previously. The point I was making is that the Select Committees, Backbench Business Committee (Review), motion will enable us to reach decisions on these matters September Sittings, Business of the House (Private Members’ tonight rather than at some time in the future. It seeks Bills), Deferred Divisions (Timing), Select Committees (Membership), to balance the time we need for debate and the time we Select Committees (Machinery of Government Change) and need to take decisions on some 14 motions on the Order Sittings of the House”. Paper—and, of course, on the amendments to them I shall say more about the motion on September sittings that Mr Speaker has selected. It would be foolish of us later. to take up a great deal of time debating the business of The changes that we are to debate will make a the House motion at the expense of the important fundamental difference to the way in which the House debates that I know the House is eager to move on to at operates not only in terms of the role of Back Benchers, the first opportunity. but in terms of the representation of the minor parties 765 Business of the House15 JUNE 2010 Business of the House 766

[Mr Kevan Jones] The Parliamentary Secretary and the Leader of the House have made a very quick conversion on a short in the House, and we should be given sufficient time in road to Damascus. In the previous Parliament, when we which to discuss these extensive motions. I agree with talked about modernisation, the Parliamentary Secretary my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles said: South (Barbara Keeley) that it was wrong to tag such “At the moment, there is a nod and a wink between the usual important House business on to a major statement channels, and then a programme motion is plonked before the about the Saville inquiry—on which, rightly, many Members House, which can take it or leave it—the answer is that we take it, wished to comment, in an emotive debate that showed because there is a Government majority in favour of the programme the House at its best—and to try to rush it through. motion. That is not a good enough way of doing business, and it does not do justice to hon. Members.”—[Official Report, 1 November Many of us have recently been on the receiving end of 2006; Vol. 451, c. 335.] ill-thought-out and ill-informed reform. I am sure that In the new coalition Government and in the new spirit if we had had more time to debate the proposals of the of co-operation, or conversion, that has taken place in Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority in detail, the past few weeks, the Parliamentary Secretary has we would not have signed up to some of the craziness as clearly changed his mind on programme motions. It is a result of which all Members in all parts of the House bad enough to have programme motions, which he used are suffering. to argue vociferously against in the previous Parliament, for legislation that is being introduced, but to have them Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I have some for something that affects individual Members of the sympathy with the hon. Gentleman’s arguments—I think House is wrong. that I sometimes advanced them from that side of the House myself—but is he suggesting that he would like Mark Tami: I think that my hon. Friend will find the House to sit through the night to make the necessary that, even in this Parliament, in addressing an Adjournment decisions in the early hours of the morning? debate, the Parliamentary Secretary still seemed to be opposed to programme motions. Mr Jones: No. As one who can remember all-night sittings, I have to say that they were conducive neither Mr Jones: That is not surprising, because the to the health of individual Members nor to the scrutiny Parliamentary Secretary is a Liberal Democrat and of legislation. Let us be honest, however: the coalition they say one thing in one place and another in another. has hit the ground running with reviews, commissions We are increasingly seeing—we certainly saw it at Justice and study groups. The programme for the period between questions—the push me-pull me coalition, where some now and the summer recess is not exactly packed with Members think that they can say anything in one sphere legislation that would take up time. Unless all the and say something else in another. various reviews, study groups and commissions are to report instantaneously, we should find more time in The Leader of the House, who has been in the House which to discuss the important changes that we are a lot longer than I have, clearly was against programme discussing, which will have an effect on the way in which motions and spoke vigorously about them. I looked up the House operates. his speech to the last Conservative party conference, which took place on 5 October 2009. It was revealing. He needs to explain to the House why tonight he is a JoSwinson(EastDunbartonshire)(LD):Notwithstanding great convert to guillotine motions. He said that the genuine issues raised by the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) in a point of order, which “one of Labour’s worst reforms has been to introduce a guillotine have to be discussed, would the hon. Member for North motion before a bill gets a second reading, automatically cutting short the time available, before we even know how complex or Durham (Mr Jones) at least concede that many of the contentious the issues are or by how much the government will motions on today’s Order Paper merely put into effect amend them. Harriet is always there, with her knitting needles.” what the House has already discussed at length in the No doubt he will be getting the knitting out later. I can previous Parliament, on 4 March and 18 March, in visualise the Parliamentary Secretary knitting. I find it respect of the Wright Committee? hard to visualise the Leader of the House doing so. Mr Jones: I am sorry that the hon. Lady wants to I am sorry to say that there is more. The Leader of disfranchise up to a third of this House, who were not the House went on to say in his speech: here in the previous Parliament. It is important that “As a result, we send huge amounts of poor quality legislation those Members be allowed to look at the proposed through to the Lords. We don’t have time to do what we tell you to reforms and have their say on them. I know that, along do—read the small print.” with her colleagues, she has signed up to the Conservative I agree with the Leader of the House in that we need to party. I thought that the Liberals were not in favour of read the small print of the measures we will be deciding an authoritarian approach. We see the two sides of the on tonight. Liberal party. It is important that we have debates. I served for Mr Bone: The hon. Gentleman is being very generous seven and a half years on a Select Committee and am a in giving way and is making a powerful speech. Will he keen supporter of the scrutiny role that Select Committees remind the House of how many times he has voted play. There are issues about, for example, the size of against programme motions? such Committees and the representation of the minor parties. If this is steamrollered through on a Conservative- Mr Jones: Actually, I agree with programme motions, Liberal Democrat guillotine, many people in both Scotland because any idiot in opposition who argues that and Wales will rightly be annoyed. Government legislation can somehow be got through 767 Business of the House15 JUNE 2010 Business of the House 768 without programme motions should be taken out to the Mr Jones: I will do so, Mr Deputy Speaker, but the nearest lunatic asylum. What we are talking about here, important point is whether or not we have a debate and however, is House business, which is a different issue. vote in Government time on the Floor of the House, I find the situation facing us a little bit galling. To be and what the constraints on that will be. Will we be able fair to the hon. Gentleman, if we divide on the programme to propose alternative September dates, because no motion he may well join me in the No Lobby, and if so doubt some new Members and others will have fixed it will not be the first time he has voted against his party holidays? What will the motion actually mean, therefore? because he is an independent soul; and I am sure he will cause havoc to his party on many more occasions in the Mark Tami: Does my hon. Friend agree that we need coming months and years. The important point here is a true understanding of the costs and of what those that insufficient time is available to us tonight to examine sittings cost in the past? in detail the complex measures that have been proposed. It appears that we are being asked to agree to measures Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. That is way outside what that raise questions as to whether we will be able to we are talking about now. I ask hon. Members to debate the issues involved again. For instance, motion 10 restrict themselves to discussing the motion before the on the Order Paper, in the name of the Leader of the House. House, is on September sittings and it states: Mr Jones: I will, Mr Deputy Speaker. Not for the first “That this House reaffirms the importance of its function of holding the Government to account: and accordingly asks the time, my hon. Friend has tried to lead me down a path Government to put to this House specific proposals for sitting that I do not want to go down. I would shudder to incur periods in September 2010.” your ire so early on in your time in the Chair. If we are Some of us were Members when the House last had to have a situation where the reforms that have been September sittings, and they were a complete disaster in proposed actually will give Back Benchers and all the that there was never any business to debate. Frankly, it Opposition parties the chance to provide scrutiny and was just a public relations stunt, which might have will give the power that the right hon. Member for made some people feel good—[Interruption.] There is North West Hampshire (Sir George Young) supported no need to worry, as I am not going to debate September when he was in opposition, we need more than the sittings; I shall return to the subject under discussion debate and time that we will have tonight. Therefore, shortly. I will oppose this motion. Ample time will be available to us between now and July, unless the plethora of There is a question to be asked, however. If we agree commissions, working groups and others report back to this motion tonight, will the Government then allow and bring back legislation, and it is important that we another debate on what is being proposed, because the do not rush through these things tonight and that we motion seems to give them carte blanche to impose can address the serious issues that have clearly been September sittings? If we agree to the motion tonight, raised by the minor parties in this House tonight. we will need to have a debate on September sittings in Government time. If that is not allowed, we will be 5.11 pm denying something that is stated in the motion, in that we will not be reaffirming the importance of the Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con): “function of holding the Government to account”. I was listening with great agreement to the Deputy Leader of the House’s comments about the need for this Instead, we will in effect tonight be giving the Government programme motion in order for us to be able to come to a blank cheque to do exactly what they want in September, a decision. We do need to come to a decision tonight and that cannot be right. and we do not need to defer any questions. What troubles me is that the points made by the minority Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Does parties are not being addressed today, so it is clear to me the hon. Gentleman recall the business statement of, that on those issues we will be deferring a decision. It I think, the week before last, when my right hon. Friend seems absolutely wrong that the minority parties should the Leader of the House said he would propose the first not have appropriate representation on the Regional two weeks in September this year as September sittings Committees. They should also be entitled, as appropriate for this House, and that he would bring forward a and in appropriate numbers, to representation on an motion to that effect for the House to vote on? Motion 10 appropriate number of non-regional Committees. So I does not seem quite to do what was suggested on that hope that we will be able, at some stage, to come to a occasion. decision on that too. Irrespective of whether it happens today, we need to give all parties in this House an Mr Jones: No, I think that first of all we need to have appropriate degree of fairness. a debate on whether we should have September sittings at all, because some of us think they are a complete 5.12 pm waste of time. Last time, they descended into farce, in Mr Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): that we had two weeks of basically Opposition day after The point that has just been made is extremely important. Opposition day and endless pointless debates. It is richly ironic that the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) was parading in front of us today Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman expressing concern that there is a guillotine on House does now seem to be going quite wide of the mark, and business. This was, of course, a long-echoed and genuine to be addressing the substantive debate. I therefore ask call made by many Conservative Members in the previous him to restrict himself to the particular motion under Parliament, and one that I have made in respect of not discussion. only House business, but all business for 25 years. So 769 Business of the House15 JUNE 2010 Business of the House 770

[Mr Richard Shepherd] party to such discussions. The changes that we will consider are important. I support almost all of them, consistency is certainly not behind the hon. Gentleman, although my right hon. Friend the Member for North but he did make some fine points. I feel strongly that the East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) made a point that way of these guillotine motions, which I had hoped must be addressed. If our debate was segmented, his would not be in the locker of the coalition in this way, well-made point would command our attention and we on House business, is wrong. One of the constant would see how wrong it is to exclude properly elected irritations in having so many motions grouped together Members of Parliament for distinctive parts of the in this way and then having a vote at the end is it results United Kingdom from having representation on in our having a general debate that has no coherency in Committees that are of importance to the House, and the thread of what we are debating. This is a poor whose importance is intended to be reinforced by the business motion because as each of the motions comes very measures that we will consider. to be voted on after 9.30 pm we will have lost where we This business of the House motion is poor, so if it is stood in the arguments—this is a muddle. A typical pressed to a Division, I shall think carefully about what trick of past judgments was to muddle all this up, so to do. that no theme and no argument is consistent, necessarily, with the business as we vote upon it. 5.18 pm

Barbara Keeley: That is part of the point that I was Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): My making. A discourtesy was shown to the Opposition hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) because the motion was not shared with us. I would did the House a great service by raising his points, have expected our main debate to be segmented. In the although I am not sure whether he intended to. He set past, if we were considering several House business out one of the strongest arguments that I have heard for motions, we would have given an hour on one, and a Back-Bench business committee. We on the Back Benches—he now joins us there—should elect our own perhaps taken two motions for an hour and half—[HON. people to decide how our time is carved up. The argument MEMBERS: “No.”] That is the case; I remember it happening. If there had been any discussions with us, we could have about segmentation made by the hon. Member for suggested such an approach. Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr Shepherd) is right, but if we had a Back-Bench business committee, we would be able to discuss such considerations sensibly. It is always Mr Shepherd: Of course the hon. Lady could have the Government who impose such rigidity on us, and held discussions. I know that those on the Government that is why we are talking about creating that committee. Front Bench are open to discussions, and if the hon. Lady had thought that her point was genuine—I accept Mr Kevan Jones rose— that it must be, given that it is the point that I am arguing—she could no doubt have spoken to them. She Mr Allen: I wanted to be brief, but I shall give way to represents a significant party in this country. my hon. Friend.

Mr Kevan Jones: I would not refer to the hon. Gentleman Mr Jones: My hon. Friend has gone from a gamekeeper as a constant irritant; his approach on such matters is as a Whip to a serial poacher on these issues— obviously consistent. However, if the motion is pressed to a Division, will he vote against it? Will he also Mr Allen: I was a poacher before that. consistently speak against programming, as he has done since I have been a Member? Mr Jones: That might be the case, but several hon. Members will remember that when my hon. Friend was Mr Shepherd: I will vote as I have always voted on a Whip, he took quite a hard line on such issues. Given these matters. However, given the temper of new Labour’s the limited time that is being allocated to the main opposition, as on identity cards, I rather suspect that debate, does he agree that there is a danger that some of there will not be a vote, but I am prepared to toss a coin the motions will not even be debated? and do my duty. The Deputy Leader of the House has made all the Mr Allen: It is very unfair of my hon. Friend to raise arguments that I am setting out on previous occasions, my history. I am a recovering Whip; I am taking one so I am surprised that he has acceded to the motion. I day at a time. I think that I am doing pretty well so far, am making an important point about the segmentation and with his encouragement, I will continue to try to of debate. The approach proposed in the motion causes do so. confusion. Many Members with a terrific interest in a The important and serious point raised by this exchange particular motion that we will consider will be drifting is one that every Member in this House must confront: around. The approach makes it easy for people to there is a limit on time in this House and this Chamber. desert the Chamber to go off across London, and to How do we dispose of that time effectively? We can return only at 9.30 pm to become part of the machine guillotine. That is a pejorative term for a stop on debate, that will roll the proposals through. regardless of what has been debated, and what important The hon. Member for North Durham has a point in issues have not been debated at all. that we rarely discuss such matters and the House has a Programming was introduced in 1997; I was instrumental record of constantly using the power of a majority to in that, so perhaps I was not quite as barbaric a Whip as get this sort of proposal through. He made the good my hon. Friend tried to paint me. We tried to introduce point that about a third of hon. Members—certainly a system whereby we had agreement across the Floor, more than 100—are new Members who have never been and with the minority parties, on how we would divide 771 Business of the House15 JUNE 2010 Business of the House 772 business, so that it could be sensibly debated, and so we play a full part in what goes on in this place. I am in that no serious issue was ever left undebated. Unfortunately, my 19th year here, and if I did not pull my weight, I that fell apart—this may be a useful history lesson for would not still be here. the newer Members—when a number of Opposition Members wanted to extend and play around with the Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I know the hon. Gentleman rules of the House. A number of senior Government is making an important point, but it is not one that Members said, “Okay, we’re not going to play. We’re should be made in the debate on the motion before the just going back to the old system of imposing a timetable.” House, which is a programme motion. Will he please I hope that we will have a sensible debate on timetabling, confine himself to the motion before us? and if the Government will not allow us to have one, I Mr Llwyd: We should have more time to discuss all hope that the Back-Bench business committee will create these issues. One of the evils that we are now confronting one at the very first opportunity. It is outrageous that is the fact that there has been no discussion. Chairs of while vast amounts of time are expended on clause 1, Select Committees are not being brought into the discussion, line 1, we never reach serious issues in the midst of and least of all are the minority parties. I speak for my Report stage. Those are really important matters. In a colleagues and friends in the Scottish National party sense, that is the elephant in the room, and the issue that and, I believe, the Democratic Unionist party and the we need to confront. I hope that, some day soon—at an Social Democratic and Labour party as well. early day, perhaps, if early-day motions are tidied up—we can have a debate on how we ensure effective timetabling. Mr Kevan Jones: My hon. Friend the Member for If the Government do not ensure that, the Back-Bench Nottingham North (Mr Allen) raised the point that the business committee probably will. I hope that it will. In new Back-Bench business committee will have supernatural order to do that, we need to make progress this evening. powers to unpick decisions. Does the hon. Gentleman We have to ensure that the business of the House agree that even if time is found in a future debate to motion is put to the vote speedily and move on, so that discuss the issues that he mentions, we may have a we can get that long-awaited Back-Bench business debate in the House that wafts over many subjects, but committee, which was voted for by the House unanimously does not change what has happened? before the general election. Mr Llwyd: That is a rather pessimistic view. I thought 5.22 pm the purpose of the Wright Committee was to make Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I should changes. I believed that when the motions came before like to make two or three brief points, because I, too, the House a few months ago, we were on the way to want the business of the House motion to be dealt with making proper changes. We fell short—we did not get it quickly. all—but at least we moved forward. From the perspective of the minority parties, we are now moving backwards. I served on the Wright Committee with a completely I shall say no more at this stage, except that if the open mind, and I hope that I did an honest job of work. motions go in the way that they will, it is because of a The point was to try to ensure that everybody in the lack of consultation. There has been no proper discussion, Chamber was properly represented on Committees. I and I am disappointed because I have great respect for have been a member of one or two Select Committees, the Leader of the House and the Parliamentary Secretary. and I am a member of the Standards and Privileges Committee. We Plaid Cymru Members are prepared to 5.26 pm pull our weight as parliamentarians, but I was alarmed to discover late last night that the likelihood is that if Mr Heath: With the leave of the House, I shall the motion on Select Committee membership is passed respond briefly to the excellent debate on the business unamended, we shall find ourselves not represented on motion. the Welsh Affairs Committee. It is not just that that is I shall deal first with the important point made by offensive; it is more important than that. the right hon. Member for North East Hampshire The Welsh Affairs Committee plays a central, pivotal (Mr Arbuthnot), which touched on the point of order role in the legislative process in Wales, because it carries from the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd out pre-legislative scrutiny of Bills from the National (Mr Llwyd). It is essential that we find a way of allowing Assembly for Wales. We are in government in Wales. the minority parties to play their part properly in the Are the Government saying that we, as members of a Select Committee system. It may be helpful to the governing party, cannot be represented on the Committee House to indicate that my right hon. Friend the Leader performing that important function? I understand that of the House will not move motion 13 this evening, my friends in the Scottish National party will be excluded because we need to talk further about this. in a similar way. It is quite outrageous if that is to Unfortunately, the proposition and the amendments happen. that have been tabled are not helpful to the hon. Gentleman in securing what he wants. Indeed, the amendment to Mr Heath indicated dissent. which he put his name would have prevented the minority parties from having a member on the Select Committees Mr Llwyd: Does the hon. Gentleman wish to intervene that he wanted. That shows that it is important that we and clarify matters? [Interruption.] I shall speak to my discuss the matter further, and make sure that we get the colleagues. If motion 13 is not to be moved, I shall right result. move on to the issue of the Back-Bench business committee. When I was on the Wright Committee, I made the point Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): several times that the minority parties must be represented Has the hon. Gentleman any explanation whatsoever on the Back-Bench business committee as well, because for how we got ourselves into such a mess? 773 Business of the House15 JUNE 2010 Business of the House 774

Mr Heath: I cannot go into detail at this point because Brazier, Mr Julian Graham, Richard we are debating the business motion and I would be out Bridgen, Andrew Grant, Mrs Helen of order. The hon. Gentleman may wish to raise the Brine, Mr Steve Grayling, rh Chris point with my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House. Brooke, Annette Green, Damian Browne, Mr Jeremy Greening, Justine Mr Kevan Jones: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Bruce, Fiona Griffiths, Andrew Bruce, rh Malcolm Gummer, Ben Mr Heath: No. I think we have heard enough from Buckland, Mr Robert Gyimah, Mr Sam the hon. Gentleman. Burley, Mr Aidan Halfon, Robert Burns, Conor Hames, Duncan The hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South Burns, Mr Simon Hammond, Stephen (Barbara Keeley) spoke about our position on programme Burrowes, Mr David Hancock, Matthew motions. I say gently to her that there may be a world of Burstow, Mr Paul Hands, Greg difference between a programme motion intended to Burt, Lorely Harper, Mr Mark prevent Members reaching a conclusion or even debating Byles, Dan Harrington, Richard important matters of legislation, and one intended to Cable, rh Vince Harris, Rebecca help the House reach a conclusion on a matter that we Cairns, Alun Hart, Simon have been debating for a very long time. That is a real Carmichael, Mr Alistair Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan difference, which she ought to appreciate. I hope that Carmichael, Neil Hayes, Mr John that partially answers the hon. Member for Aldridge- Carswell, Mr Douglas Heath, Mr David Cash, Mr William Heaton-Harris, Chris Brownhills (Mr Shepherd). Chishti, Rehman Hemming, John The hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) Chope, Mr Christopher Henderson, Gordon made an extremely important point—that if we secure Clark, rh Greg Herbert, rh Nick the agreement of the House this afternoon to the changes, Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hinds, Damian never again will it be for a Minister to determine these Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hoban, Mr Mark matters. It will be for the Back-Bench business committee Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hollingbery, George to decide its own business, and that is as it should be. Collins, Damian Holloway, Mr Adam Colvile, Oliver Hopkins, Kris Barbara Keeley: The hon. Gentleman has not yet Crockart, Mike Horwood, Martin answered the point about the lack of consultation. The Crouch, Tracey Howarth, Mr Gerald mess that Government Members have got themselves Davies, David T. C. Howell, John into this afternoon could have been avoided if there had (Monmouth) Hughes, Simon Davies, Glyn Huhne, rh Chris been more consultation with the Opposition and the de Bois, Nick Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy minority parties. Dinenage, Caroline Hunter, Mark Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Huppert, Dr Julian Mr Heath: I do not accept that there has not been Dorries, Nadine Hurd, Mr Nick consultation, that the motions were not tabled at an Doyle-Price, Jackie Jackson, Mr Stewart early stage, or that we have not been talking about this Drax, Richard James, Margot subject for months and months and months, nay, years. Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Javid, Sajid I note that the hon. Member for North Durham says Dunne, Mr Philip Jenkin, Mr Bernard that today is not appropriate for discussing the matter, Ellis, Michael Johnson, Gareth but I note also that the previous Government never Ellison, Jane Johnson, Joseph found a day when it was right to take a decision on these Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Andrew essential reforms. Today, we are going to put that right. Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Mr David Today, we are actually going to reach some decisions Eustice, George Jones, Mr Marcus and open up the business of this House to the control of Evans, Graham Kelly, Chris Evans, Jonathan Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Back Benchers, where it belongs. I hope that we will Evennett, Mr David Kirby, Simon now proceed with that. Fabricant, Michael Kwarteng, Kwasi Question put. Fallon, Michael Lamb, Norman The House divided: Ayes 301, Noes 198. Farron, Tim Lancaster, Mark Featherstone, Lynne Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Division No. 5] [5.31 pm Field, Mr Mark Latham, Pauline Foster, Mr Don Laws, rh Mr David AYES Fox,rhDrLiam Leadsom, Andrea Adams, Nigel Bebb, Guto Francois, rh Mr Mark Lee, Jessica Aldous, Peter Beith, rh Sir Alan Freeman, George Lee, Dr Phillip Alexander, rh Danny Bellingham, Mr Henry Freer, Mike Leech, Mr John Amess, Mr David Beresford, Sir Paul Fullbrook, Lorraine Lefroy, Jeremy Andrew, Stuart Berry, Jake Fuller, Richard Leigh, Mr Edward Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bingham, Andrew Gale, Mr Roger Leslie, Charlotte Bacon, Mr Richard Binley, Mr Brian Garnier, Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Bagshawe, Ms Louise Blackman, Bob Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Brandon Baker, Norman Blackwood, Nicola George, Andrew Lewis, Dr Julian Baker, Steve Blunt, Mr Crispin Gibb, Mr Nick Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Baldry, Tony Bottomley, Peter Gilbert, Stephen Lidington, Mr David Barclay, Stephen Bradley, Karen Glen, John Lilley, rh Mr Peter Barker, Gregory Brady, Mr Graham Goldsmith, Zac Lopresti, Jack Baron, Mr John Brake, Tom Goodwill, Mr Robert Lord, Jonathan Barwell, Gavin Bray, Angie Gove, rh Michael Loughton, Tim 775 Business of the House15 JUNE 2010 Business of the House 776

Luff, Peter Sanders, Mr Adrian Barron, rh Mr Kevin Griffith, Nia Lumley, Karen Sandys, Laura Beckett, rh Margaret Hamilton, Mr David Macleod, Mary Scott, Mr Lee Benn, rh Hilary Hamilton, Mr Fabian Main, Mrs Anne Selous, Andrew Berger, Luciana Hanson, rh Mr David May, rh Mrs Theresa Shapps, rh Grant Betts, Mr Clive Harman, rh Ms Harriet McCartney, Jason Sharma, Alok Blackman-Woods, Roberta Harris, Mr Tom McCartney, Karl Shelbrooke, Alec Blears, rh Hazel Havard, Mr Dai McIntosh, Miss Anne Simmonds, Mark Blenkinsop, Tom Healey, rh John McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Simpson, Mr Keith Blomfield, Paul Hendrick, Mark McPartland, Stephen Skidmore, Chris Blunkett, rh Mr David Hepburn, Mr Stephen McVey, Esther Smith, Henry Brennan, Kevin Hillier, Meg Meacher, rh Mr Michael Smith, Julian Brown, Lyn Hilling, Julie Menzies, Mark Smith, Sir Robert Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hodge, rh Margaret Metcalfe, Stephen Soames, Nicholas Brown, Mr Russell Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Miller, Maria Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Bryant, Chris Hollobone, Mr Philip Mills, Nigel Spencer, Mr Mark Buck, Ms Karen Hopkins, Kelvin Milton, Anne Stanley, rh Sir John Burden, Richard Hosie, Stewart Moore, rh Michael Stephenson, Andrew Burnham, rh Andy Howarth, rh Mr George Morgan, Nicky Stevenson, John Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hunt, Tristram Morris, Anne Marie Stewart, Iain Cairns, David Illsley, Mr Eric Morris, David Streeter, Mr Gary Campbell, Mr Alan Irranca-Davies, Huw Morris, James Stride, Mel Campbell, Mr Ronnie Jamieson, Cathy Mosley, Stephen Stuart, Mr Graham Chapman, Mrs Jenny Jones, Graham Mowat, David Stunell, Andrew Clark, Katy Jones, Helen Mulholland, Greg Sturdy, Julian Clarke, rh Mr Tom Jones, Mr Kevan Munt, Tessa Swales, Ian Clwyd, rh Ann Jones, Susan Elan Murray, Sheryll Swinson, Jo Coaker, Vernon Jowell, rh Tessa Murrison, Dr Andrew Swire, Mr Hugo Coffey, Ann Keeley, Barbara Neill, Robert Syms, Mr Robert Connarty, Michael Lazarowicz, Mark Newmark, Mr Brooks Thurso, John Cooper, rh Yvette Lewis, Mr Ivan Newton, Sarah Timpson, Mr Edward Corbyn, Jeremy Lloyd, Tony Nokes, Caroline Tomlinson, Justin Crausby, Mr David Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Norman, Jesse Truss, Elizabeth Creasy, Stella Love, Mr Andrew Nuttall, Mr David Tyrie, Mr Andrew Cruddas, Jon Lucas, Caroline Ollerenshaw, Eric Uppal, Paul Cryer, John Lucas, Ian Opperman, Guy Vaizey, Mr Edward Cunningham, Mr Jim MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Osborne, rh Mr George Vara, Mr Shailesh Cunningham, Tony MacShane, rh Mr Denis Ottaway, Richard Vickers, Martin Curran, Margaret Mahmood, Shabana Paice, Mr James Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Dakin, Nic Mann, John Parish, Neil Walker, Mr Charles Danczuk, Simon Marsden, Mr Gordon Patel, Priti Walker, Mr Robin David, Mr Wayne McCabe, Steve Pawsey, Mark Wallace, Mr Ben Davidson, Mr Ian McCann, Mr Michael Penning, Mike Ward, Mr David Davis, rh David McCarthy, Kerry Penrose, John Watkinson, Angela Dobbin, Jim McCrea, Dr William Percy, Andrew Weatherley, Mike Dobson, rh Frank McFadden, rh Mr Pat Perry, Claire Webb, Steve Docherty, Thomas McGovern, Alison Phillips, Stephen Wharton, James Dodds, rh Mr Nigel McGovern, Jim Pickles, rh Mr Eric Wheeler, Heather Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Pincher, Christopher Whittaker, Craig Doran, Mr Frank McKechin, Ann Poulter, Dr Daniel Whittingdale, Mr John Doyle, Gemma McKinnell, Catherine Prisk, Mr Mark Wiggin, Bill Dromey, Jack Mearns, Ian Pugh, Dr John Willetts, rh Mr David Dugher, Michael Michael, rh Alun Raab, Mr Dominic Williams, Mr Mark Eagle, Ms Angela Miller, Andrew Randall, rh Mr John Williams, Roger Edwards, Jonathan Moon, Mrs Madeleine Reckless, Mark Williams, Stephen Efford, Clive Morden, Jessica Redwood, rh Mr John Williamson, Gavin Elliott, Julie Morris, Grahame M. Rees-Mogg, Jacob Wilson, Mr Rob Ellman, Mrs Louise Munn, Meg Reevell, Simon Wollaston, Dr Sarah Engel, Natascha Murphy, rh Mr Jim Reid, Mr Alan Wright, Jeremy Evans, Chris Murray, Ian Farrelly, Paul Nash, Pamela Robathan, Mr Andrew Wright, Simon Robertson, Mr Laurence Fitzpatrick, Jim O’Donnell, Fiona Young, rh Sir George Rogerson, Dan Flint, rh Caroline Onwurah, Chi Zahawi, Nadhim Rosindell, Andrew Fovargue, Yvonne Owen, Albert Rudd, Amber Tellers for the Ayes: Francis, Dr Hywel Paisley, Ian Russell, Bob James Duddridge and Gapes, Mike Pearce, Teresa Rutley, David Miss Chloe Smith Gilmore, Sheila Perkins, Toby Glass, Pat Phillipson, Bridget NOES Glindon, Mrs Mary Pound, Stephen Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Allen, Mr Graham Goggins, rh Paul Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Goodman, Helen Reeves, Rachel Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Bain, Mr William Greatrex, Tom Reynolds, Emma Alexander, Heidi Balls, rh Ed Green, Kate Reynolds, Jonathan 777 Business of the House 15 JUNE 2010 778

Robertson, Angus Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Backbench Business Committee Robertson, John Thornberry, Emily Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Timms, rh Mr Stephen [Relevant documents: The First Report from the House Rotheram, Steve Turner, Karl of Commons Reform Committee, Session 2008-09, on Roy, Mr Frank Twigg, Derek Rebuilding the House, HC 1117, and its First Report of Roy, Lindsay Twigg, Stephen Session 2009-10, Rebuilding the House: Implementation, Ruddock, rh Joan Vaz, Valerie HC 372.] Sarwar, Anas Walley, Joan Seabeck, Alison Watts, Mr Dave Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Mr Speaker Sharma, Mr Virendra Weir, Mr Mike has published his provisional selection of amendments. Sheerman, Mr Barry Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Those selected can be debated as part of the joint Shepherd, Mr Richard Whitehead, Dr Alan debate on the motions on the Order Paper. At the end Sheridan, Jim Wicks, rh Malcolm of the debate, and in the light of what has been said, Shuker, Gavin Williams, Hywel Mr Speaker will decide which of the provisionally selected Skinner, Mr Dennis Williamson, Chris amendments should be called formally and, if necessary, Slaughter, Mr Andy Wilson, Phil Smith, rh Mr Andrew Winnick, Mr David pressed to a Division. Smith, Angela (Penistone and Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Stocksbridge) Wishart, Pete 5.48 pm Smith, Nick Woodcock, John The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Smith, Owen Woolas, Mr Phil Young): I beg to move, Soulsby, Sir Peter Wright, David That the following new Standing Order be made:— Spellar, rh Mr John Wright, Mr Iain (1) There shall be a select committee, called the Backbench Straw, rh Mr Jack Tellers for the Noes: Business Committee, to determine the backbench business to be Stringer, Graham Mark Tami and taken in the House and in Westminster Hall on days, or parts of Stuart, Ms Gisela Mary Creagh days, allotted for backbench business. (2) The committee shall consist of a chair and seven other Question accordingly agreed to. Members, of whom four shall be a quorum. Resolved, (3) The chair and other members of the committee shall continue as members of the committee for the remainder of the That, at today’s sitting, the Speaker shall put the Questions Session in which they are elected unless replaced under the necessary to dispose of proceedings on the Motions in the name provisions of Standing Order No. (Election of Backbench Business of Sir George Young relating to Backbench Business Committee, Committee). Election of Backbench Business Committee, Backbench Business (Amendment of Standing Orders), Westminster Hall (Amendment (4) The chair and members of the committee shall be elected in of Standing Orders), Topical Debates (Amendments of Standing accordance with the provisions of Standing Order No. (Election Orders), Pay for Chairs of Select Committees, Backbench Business of Backbench Business Committee). Committee (Review), September Sittings, Business of the House (5) No Member who is a Minister of the Crown or parliamentary (Private Members’ Bills), Deferred Divisions (Timing), Select private secretary or a principal opposition front-bench spokesperson Committees (Membership), Select Committees (Machinery of shall be eligible to be the chair or a member of the committee: the Government Change) and Sittings of the House not later than Speaker’s decision shall be final on such matters. 9.30 pm; such Questions shall include the Questions on any (6) The committee shall have power to invite Government Amendments selected by the Speaker which may then be moved; officials to attend all or part of any of its meetings. proceedings may continue after the moment of interruption; and (7) The committee shall determine the backbench business to Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply. be taken— (a) in the House on any day, or any part of any day, allotted under paragraph (3A) of Standing Order No. 14, and (b) in Westminster Hall, in accordance with paragraph (3A) of Standing Order No. 10, and shall report its determinations to the House. (8) At the commencement of any business in the House or in Westminster Hall which has been determined by the committee, a member of the committee shall make a brief statement of no more than five minutes explaining the committee’s reasons for its determination.

Mr Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss motions 3 to 15 inclusive.

Sir George Young: This is the first time I have spoken with you in the Chair, Mr Deputy Speaker, so I welcome you. As the Deputy Leader of the House said in the final stages of the debate that has just ended, we will not be moving motion 13, and I shall explain why not in a moment. Today we are presenting the House with an opportunity to seize back some of the powers that have been taken away by the Government. We want to restore to Back-Bench Members greater control over the business of the House than they have had for not only a generation, but more than a century. As the hon. Member for Nottingham 779 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 780

North (Mr Allen) said earlier, in future, how long Sir George Young: The Wright Committee is specific debates such as this last and whether they should be about the size of the committee, which it said should segmented into their component parts will be a matter have between seven and nine members. We have proposed for the House and the Back-Bench business committee, that it should have eight members. The chair will be and no one will be more pleased about that than the elected by the same process as other elected Select Leader and Deputy Leader of the House. Committee Chairs, but with no prior party allocation—so In tabling the motions on the Order Paper, we are the hon. Gentleman would be free to stand. There will pressing ahead with the implementation of the Wright be total freedom to choose a chair from either side of Committee’s proposals by setting up the Back-Bench the House. The remaining members will then be elected business committee that was endorsed so emphatically by another secret ballot, using the same system as for by the House in the previous Parliament, and delivering the Deputy Speakers in order to ensure overall party the first of the Government’s commitments on and gender balance. We propose that, in the first instance, parliamentary reform from the coalition agreement. the committee should be re-elected every Session. Although many members of the Wright Committee are no longer in the House, I pay tribute to them, and to Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): It is those who remain, for a ground-breaking report produced surely not possible to reflect the balance in the House in record time. I similarly commend the work of Parliament with so few members. First, which is continuing to set the pace on reform. Although many useful reforms were introduced in Sir George Young: We are implementing the the last 13 years—debates in Westminster Hall, better recommendations of the Wright Committee, of which sitting hours and the replacement of Standing Committees the hon. Gentleman was a distinguished member. The with Public Bill Committees—on some occasions the Wright Committee said that the committee should have momentum was frustrated by the previous Government. between seven and nine members, and we are proposing If one looks at the delays and prevarications in setting that it should have eight members—[Interruption.] The up the Wright Committee and debating its report—and, hon. Gentleman may not have been able to persuade indeed, reaching a conclusion on its central recommendation other members of the Wright Committee to recommend of a Back-Bench committee—they make the case more a larger business committee that would have greater eloquently than anything else for the Government to opportunity to include minority parties, but the relinquish their iron grip on the procedures and agenda proposition— of the House. Now we are finally giving the House a chance to debate and vote on that issue. Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): May I attempt to help the Leader of the House? Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): In the context of the iron grip to which my right hon. Friend refers, is there Sir George Young: If the hon. Gentleman will help any reason why we cannot have the committee for an me, I will of course give way. entire Parliament? Mr Allen: I cannot remember an occasion on which I Sir George Young: I will come in a moment to the did anything other than help the Leader of the House. question of whether the committee should be established I even attempted to help previous Leaders of the House. for one year or five years. I shall try to elaborate the point made by my hon. I turn now to Standing Order No. 14. It is just over Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd). 107 years—in fact it was on 1 December 1902—since The Back-Bench committee is the culmination of a the House first passed a Standing Order governing the process. When it meets and puts its report to the House, precedence of business at different sittings. That was the that will be the summit of a process that will involve predecessor of today’s Standing Order No. 14, which much wider and deeper consultations with all parties provides for Government business to have precedence at and any Back Bencher who wishes to participate. So we every sitting, with certain exceptions. The motions before do not need to have a vast, all-encompassing committee the House today will change that proposition radically. that would be too bulky to work properly. The members For the first time in over a century, the House will be of the Wright Committee felt that that was an appropriate given control over significant parts of its own agenda. approach and we had no intention of trying to freeze The new committee will give Back Benchers the power anyone out. and time to schedule debates on issues that matter to them and to their constituents, and allow the House to Sir George Young: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman become more responsive to the world outside. Motions 2 and I may give way to him later if I feel that he can to 5 establish the committee, make arrangements for its elucidate my points as well as he has just elucidated election by secret ballot of the whole House and set out that one. its powers and role. Much of what we propose is self- I turn now to the question of why the committee explanatory and, in the interests of brevity, I will direct should be elected every year. The committee will have my remarks towards those points that I feel need some power to schedule business in the House and Westminster further explanation, and on which Members have tabled Hall. Given the significance of this, we believe that amendments. members of the committee should be accountable to their peers for the decisions they take in scheduling Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): debates. This will not affect the eligibility of the chair Does the Leader of the House agree that to be effective and members, who will still be able to offer themselves the Back-Bench committee must include Back Benchers for re-election. This will be by secret ballot, so there is from every part of this House, including the minority no question of Members coming under the malign parties? influence of the usual channels in making their choices. 781 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 782

[Sir George Young] committee is only half of the picture, and we must not lose sight of the progress that we want to see made in As well as providing accountability, it will, I hope, also the third year of this Parliament on a House business provide a way of bringing new blood on to the committee committee. The creation of a House committee—looking from time to time, to keep its thinking fresh. at both the scheduling of Government and Back-Bench time as a single entity—will be better able to balance the Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): I concur time more effectively between debates and scrutiny. with the point made by hon. Members from the minority I shall explain briefly how the proposals will work. parties, because it is important that the whole House The committee will have a total of 35 days at its has the opportunity to be represented on the committee. disposal, which equates, as the Wright Committee However, motion 3(1)(c) states that recommended, to about one day per sitting week. The “no fewer than ten” time will be divided between the House and Westminster of the nominators Hall. The Liaison Committee will have 20 Thursday “shall be members of the candidate’s party”. sittings in Westminster Hall for debates on Select Committee That may be an oversight, but perhaps the Leader of reports, and all other Thursdays will be for business the House can explain how it would be possible for determined by the Back-Bench business committee. Each Members from the minority parties or independent of these Thursdays will count as half a day towards the Members to be nominated. I am sure that the intention total allocation of 35. In a typical Session of about is not to exclude them, but that wording might need 35 sitting weeks, therefore, the committee will use seven Mr Speaker to interpret it flexibly when it came to or eight days of its allocation in Westminster Hall nominations. debates, and the remainder—about 27 or 28 days—will be taken in the Chamber. Some of that time may be Sir George Young: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for taken in the form of 90-minute topical debates, under pointing out those restrictions which might preclude Standing Order No. 24A, which will count as a quarter the nomination of the hon. Member for Perth and of a day. And I am happy to say that I see no difficulty North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) for chair of the committee, in accepting amendment (a) to motion 4, which encapsulates unless he was minded to join a larger party for a day. the 27 days in the form I just outlined. If colleagues believe that the committee should be It may also be helpful if I say to the House that it is accountable to the House, they might wish to resist the my intention to invite the Procedure Committee to amendment in the name of the hon. Member for consider whether the sittings in Westminster Hall could Nottingham North, which would have the committee be extended to allow for sittings on Monday afternoons. elected for the whole Parliament. That would provide the Back-Bench business committee The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire with even more flexibility in how it schedules business. has tabled an amendment to increase the size of the In future, it will also be for the Back-Bench business committee, and I have already dealt with that point. committee, not the Government, to schedule debates on Although I understand the reason behind his amendment, pre-recess Adjournments, on set-piece debates on defence, the review may also be able to consider it. Welsh affairs and international women’s day, and on topical debates. These decisions will rest entirely in its Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): hands, and just as I am accountable to the House for My right hon. Friend is involved in a historic shift of Government business, so it will be so accountable for power to this House that is extremely welcome, but will Back-Bench business. he consider the balance that needs to be struck between Finally on the Wright Committee recommendations, accountability and independence? Members of the Back- we propose that the operation of the new system should Bench business committee may be able to act more be reviewed at the beginning of the next Session, in late courageously and independently if they do not feel 2011. I recognise that there is concern about the reasoning under threat of defeat at an election. behind this review, but the object of the review is to enable the House to move forwards, rather than, as Sir George Young: I am not sure that I buy that point. some have said, to wind back. There is absolutely no The object of the Back-Bench business committee is to intention to shut down the Back-Bench committee after reflect the views of the House in selecting the agenda the first Session. We are committed to establishing a for discussion. I am not sure that a display of heroic House business committee, dealing with both Government independence—to an extent that led the committee and Back-Bench business, by the third year of this away from the centre of gravity of the House—is what Parliament, so a review of the Back-Bench business the committee should be about. committee any later than that would make no sense. I Motion 4 defines Back-Bench business and provides would therefore urge the hon. Member for Nottingham for the committee to have 35 days at its disposal in the North (Mr Allen) not to press his amendment deferring House and in Westminster Hall. This is one of the the review until the beginning of the next Parliament, central recommendations of the report, but it is important which, as I said, will be after the House business committee to remember the bigger picture. The Wright Committee has been set up. noted: I shall now deal briefly in turn with each of the “The single greatest cause of dissatisfaction…with current remaining motions on the Order Paper. scheduling of legislative business in the House arises from the handling of the report stage of government bills.” Mr Allen: If having a review every year is such a good In implementing one part of the Wright report, it is system, will it be extended to decisions on Select important not to undermine what another part of the Committees, the occupant of the Chair and perhaps same report says. In addition, the Back-Bench business even to Government Ministers? If it is so good to review 783 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 784 everybody and put everything up in the air annually, Sir George Young: The Back-Bench committee does does the Leader of the House intend to extend the not yet exist, and the recommendation of the Wright practice? Committee was that the House should have an early opportunity to decide on it. The House can only do that Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman was a if we give it the opportunity today.So we are implementing distinguished member of the Wright Committee, which the Wright Committee recommendations in full by giving said that its recommendations needed to be implemented the House the opportunity to decide whether it wants to in stages. To that extent, the proposals before the House sit in September. are different from those that govern other Select The House already sits for longer than almost any Committees, which are well established and do not need other comparative legislature in the democratic world, to be subject to review to make progress. For example, I but it is obvious that the public do not easily understand have just outlined that we have not gone the whole way why MPs are effectively unable to scrutinise the Government on the 35 days—they will not all be allocated to the over the lengthy summer recesses, some of which have Chamber—but I hope to make progress, and the review stretched out over a fairly long period of 82 days. I have that I have outlined will enable the Government and the already announced that, subject to the will of the House Back-Bench committee to see what progress has been tonight, the House will sit for two weeks from 6 September. made and how the momentum might be driven further Unlike in previous September sittings that the House forward. has experimented with, I fully expect there to be substantive business for the House to consider during that period. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): My experience in the This is not a cosmetic change, but a declaration of Leader of the House’s office was that one was not intent. necessarily in charge of one’s destiny in these matters, and that the relationship with Whips tended to be Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I just want difficult when it came to allowing things to go forward— my right hon. Friend to know that some of us think that this is a huge advance. We want a Parliament that is serious, and able to dictate more of its own agenda and The Treasurer of Her Majesty’s Household (Mr John to hold the Government to account. It is remarkable Randall) indicated dissent. that a Government are keeping their word and offering just that. Chris Bryant: I see there is a charming Whip saying the whole world has changed, but I do not think that is Sir George Young: I am grateful to my right hon. true. The Leader of the House is asking the House to Friend for his robust support for the propositions before take it on trust that at some stage he will come forward the House. with further proposals. That means we have a long way The Government have set out the dates of the 13 Fridays to go. provided for in Standing Orders to allow consideration of private Members’ Bills. Amendment (a) to motion 11 Sir George Young: At the end of the day, it is of would provide extra days for the consideration of such course up to the House to deal with the matter. The Bills in this Session. Private Members who have been Chief Whip is as my brother on these matters. If the successful in this year’s ballot will be advantaged by the hon. Gentleman reads the coalition agreement, he will fact that the longer Session allows for more time between see a clear commitment to implementing the Wright the Fridays provided for consideration of their Bills on Committee recommendations in full. That is in the the Floor of the House. That will allow more time for coalition agreement and that is why we want the review—to Members to progress their Bills outside the Chamber, in make further progress towards full implementation. Committee or the other place. I told my hon. Friend the In February, the previous Parliament resolved that Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope), when we debated the new Parliament should have an early opportunity to this matter in the last Session, that I would not decide on the issue of September sittings—indeed, “commit any future Administration to an increase in the pro rata sufficiently early to be able to decide on them this year. number”—[Official Report, 6 January 2010; Vol. 503, c. 228.] Motion 10 gives effect to that decision. of private Members’ Fridays in the first Session of this Parliament. And that, I am afraid, is what I will do. Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): The right hon. Gentleman has made a great argument Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) on the importance of increasing the powers of the (Lab): The right hon. Gentleman has referred to Fridays House as against the Executive. Does he not consider it several times. As one who has been fortunate enough to ironic, therefore, that he is proposing, in motion 10, that steer two private Members’ Bills through both Houses, in order to reaffirm in very difficult circumstances and on Fridays, I would “the importance of its function of holding the Government to like to know whether we are stuck with Fridays? Are account” private Members not to be given the same rights as Government spokespersons? the House should ask “the Government to put to this House specific proposals for Sir George Young: The Wright report recognised sitting periods in September 2010.”? deep dissatisfaction with the current system for private Should the Back-Bench business committee not have Members’ Bills, which was last considered by the Procedure been invited to consider whether September sittings are Committee in 2002-03, so I understand the right hon. appropriate, and if so, to come forward with proposals Gentleman’s anxiety. My view is that the House might for how they should be organised? feel it is time, once again, to give this issue proper 785 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 786

[Sir George Young] Committees, which has reduced the number of places to be filled by 81, and by abolishing the Modernisation consideration. The Procedure Committee ought to consider Committee. it in one of its first inquiries and look at the procedures However, the Wright report recognised that and scheduling in the round. That, rather than addressing “Members in individual cases can be added to specific committees concerns in a piecemeal way—as provided for in some to accommodate the legitimate demands of the smaller parties”. of the amendments—is the right way to do it. The demography of the House has undergone a major change since then. For the first time since 1974, a Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): My right general election has returned a House with no overall hon. Friend referred accurately to our exchange in the majority. It was the Government’s intention to allow last Parliament. During that debate, he was very sympathetic representation in the Select Committee system for the to the argument that, if we have a Session lasting minority parties, which have an important role to play 18 months, there should be more private Members’ time in holding the Government to account in this new-look than in a Session lasting for only one year. Surely his Parliament. Our intention was to make swift progress argument that private Members will be advantaged by on setting up Select Committees, in line with the six the gap between the Fridays is a bit disingenuous because weeks that Wright recommended. However, having looked whether a private Member can get legislation through at the Order Paper, I recognise that a large number depends on the time available at Report, which is why of colleagues, many of whom are distinguished Chairs of we need more private Members’ Fridays. Select Committees, have concerns about the course of Sir George Young: My response to my hon. Friend is action that we have proposed. In line with this Government’s the one that I have just given. Rather than just look at desire for a more collaborative relationship with the the question of how many Fridays a private Member’s House than a confrontational one, it is not our intention Bill has, one ought to stand back and look at the whole to move that motion at the end of today, but to come procedure for private Members’ Bills, and ask whether back to the House soon, after further consultation with Friday is the right day, whether the pathway through the interested parties. the House is the right one and whether it is too easy to impede progress. That is the right way to approach Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Let me private Members’ Bills: through a proper consideration express my appreciation to my right hon. Friend for by the Procedure Committee, rather than a one-off taking that matter away. I should be delighted to have amendment this afternoon. the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) on the Justice Committee, but not if he has to be Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): As a member attended by an army of four other extra members. I of the Procedure Committee in 2002, I can say that the hope that the Leader of the House can initiate a discussion most fundamental change to have taken place over this to find a more satisfactory way of dealing with that period is the reduction in our hours on Wednesday and matter. Thursday. Perhaps the Procedure Committee could look into extending our hours on Wednesday and Thursday Sir George Young: It is just such consultation that I nights, so that private Members’ Bills could be considered want to promote. Let me put it on record that it is our then. intention to ensure that minority parties continue to have representation on Select Committees, just as they Sir George Young: That is a helpful suggestion that did in the previous Parliament, as is proper in a United I am sure the Procedure Committee would like to take Kingdom Parliament. on board. Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab) rose— Chris Bryant: Will the Leader of the House give way? Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con) rose— Sir George Young: No, I am going to move on, as I am conscious that a large number of Members want to Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con) speak. rose— Motion 12 extends the time allowed for voting on Sir George Young: I will give way once more, but then deferred Divisions by one hour, by starting the voting I really must make progress. time at 11.30 am instead of 12.30 pm. That means that Members can vote before Prime Minister’s questions, Mr Arbuthnot: I am extremely grateful to my right which should ease the number of Members trying to hon. Friend. I hope that in finding a solution to that vote directly after questions. I hope that Members will problem, he will remember that on 22 February he said: support this small but helpful innovation. “Having been the Chairman of a Select Committee, I have There are two motions on the Order Paper relating to long thought that the size of membership should be no more than Select Committees. On Select Committee sizes, let me 11 to allow for a more focused discussion and a more manageable explain the reason for originally tabling those motions. meeting.”—[Official Report, 22 February 2010; Vol. 506, c. 49.] The previous Parliament agreed in February to a reduction I am delighted that he is showing both good sense and in the standard size of Select Committees, from 14 to consistency. 11, which was introduced for most Committees at the start of this Session. The Wright report expressed concern Sir George Young: I am grateful to my right hon. about the number of places to be filled on Select Friend. One of the members of the small Committee Committees, which had doubled since 1979. As well as that I chaired was from a minority party, so it is possible reducing the standard membership to 11, the Government to have representation, even on a reduced size, from have eased the strain by abolishing the Regional Select Members from the smaller parties. 787 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 788

Joan Walley: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? of the House of Commons, which was chaired by Tony Wright, as the Leader of the House said. It is also Sir George Young: Yes, but for the last time. thanks to the former Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath Joan Walley: I am most grateful to the right hon. (Mr Brown), that we are now having this debate, as it Gentleman. In view of what he has said about the was he who agreed to the setting up of that Committee. possibility of there not being a vote on the issue today, We have already elected our Select Committee Chairs let me flag up an issue that I have flagged up previously, by secret ballot, which was another step forward, and I about the Environmental Audit Committee. Just for would like to take this opportunity to congratulate all the record, it was originally set up along the lines of the right hon. and hon. Members who were successful in Public Accounts Committee, which has 16 members, on that election. account of there being a Finance Minister and shadow Ministers among its members. However, in practice, it Chris Bryant: Perhaps we should add Robin Cook to has not been easy on some occasions to achieve a the list of people who should be thanked for the election quorum on the Environmental Audit Committee from of Select Committee Chairs, because it was he who among its 16 members. I would therefore be most brought the idea to the House. Unfortunately the Whips grateful if the right hon. Gentleman could give some at the time conspired to ensure that it did not happen, consideration to the numbers on the Environmental but now we have finally got it. However, the one Committee Audit Committee and come back to the House at an that we have not yet elected a Chair for is the European appropriate time. Scrutiny Committee. Does my right hon. Friend hope that that Committee will be set up soon? Europe is Sir George Young: I am glad that I gave way to the moving on apace, but at the moment we have no means hon. Lady. I should be happy to engage in that discussion of scrutinising it at all. and see whether we can reduce the numbers in line with those in the other Select Committees. If agreed, motion 14 on the Order Paper would Ms Winterton: My hon. Friend is right on both change the name of one of the departmental Select counts. It is important that we pay tribute to Robin Committees from the Children, Schools and Families Cook for everything that he did to make many of the Committee to the Education Committee. That will align reforms happen. He is also right that we should set up the Committee to the Department that it scrutinises, the the European Scrutiny Committee, which performs an name of which changed following the election. Finally, extremely important task. motion 15 would change the sitting times on Tuesday There is no doubt that we need the proposed reforms 22 June, so that the House would sit at 11.30 am, to give more power to Back Benchers. I am sure that instead of the normal start time of 2.30 pm. It will not there will be a lively debate on the proposals today—indeed, have escaped the notice of the House that 22 June is it has already started. I will be brief, as I know that Budget day. I hope that hon. Members will agree that many Back Benchers want to contribute, but I want to the earlier start time will be for the convenience of the raise a few issues. Obviously it is important that the whole House. Back-Bench committee timetables as much non- This Government believe in a strong Parliament—one governmental business as possible. However, I seek an that is fearless in holding the Executive to account, assurance from the Deputy Leader of the House when effective at scrutinising legislation, responsive to the he replies to this debate that the operation of the demands of its constituents and relevant to the national Back-Bench business committee will not impact on interest. I believe that the decisions that the House will either the number or the timetabling of Opposition make today will be remembered long into the future, as days. a defining moment of parliamentary reform. I commend I was pleased that the Leader of the House was able the motion to the House. to assure us that there would indeed be Government business to debate during the September sittings. 6.16 pm Ms Rosie Winterton (Doncaster Central) (Lab): Let Mr David Hamilton: Would my right hon. Friend also me welcome you to the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker, consider allowing the House to rise in June? The children congratulate you on your election and say how much we of Scottish Members are on holiday in July, and that is are looking forward to your chairmanship over the already causing great difficulty for us. years. I also thank the Leader of the House for setting out the Government’s motion on changes to the business Ms Winterton: Perhaps my hon. Friend would like to of the House. raise that point during the debate tonight. I want to start by reiterating the important point that At the moment, the new Government legislation is my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles not ready to be debated in September, but I hope that South (Barbara Keeley) made, which is that it would the Deputy Leader of the House will be able to assure have been genuinely helpful if there had been more us that we shall not have a repeat of the situation that consultation on the motions before they were placed on we have at the moment, in which about three out of the Order Paper. If there are further proposals in future, every four days are allocated for general debates. The I hope that we will be able to have such consultation. public rightly expect value for money from Parliament, The creation of the Back-Bench business committee and it is important that we should be able to debate as is another important step in the implementation of the much Government business as possible, in the form of recommendations of the cross-party Committee on Reform Second Readings, at that time. 789 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 790

Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): With Minister wanted. The number of sitting days was reduced, regard to value for money, I am really glad that there is and the amount of time allowed for private Members’ to be a programme of work in September. Does my Bills was savagely cut. People outside Parliament recognised right hon. Friend think that it would be helpful, however, that that was happening, and they wanted not only to if the austerity Government could tell us the cost of the see changes to the expenses system but to have a cancellation of the contracts for the work that normally Government—of whatever political persuasion—who takes place on this estate during the summer recess, as could be subject to serious scrutiny and held to account. well as the cost of any penalty clauses that might be Things are changing, however. We have a new Speaker invoked in relation to work that cannot be completed who is determined to protect the role of Parliament because of the September recall? In that way, we could and, particularly, the power of Back-Bench MPs. We evaluate the costs and benefits of meeting in Birmingham have only to look at the speed with which questions are in September, rather than meeting on a building site. dealt with, the restriction on Front-Bench speakers, and the number of urgent questions that are granted to see Ms Winterton: I know that my hon. Friend is keen for that improvements have already been made. the House to consider seriously his suggestion of meeting in Birmingham. I hope that the Deputy Leader of the We also have a new coalition Government who—this House will be able to tell us what estimates have been next bit is very important—have abandoned the automatic made of the additional cost to the taxpayer of meeting programming of Bills. I have to say that I do not in September, perhaps taking into account my hon. support the Government’s position on the programming Friend’s point about possible breaks in contracts. of tonight’s business, because I believe that this debate could have gone through the night. I was not prepared I recall that the last time we debated and voted on to support the Opposition, however, because I felt that September sittings—I think it was in 2006—the current their stance represented pure opportunism, given that Leader of the House voted against them, but the Deputy they had constantly voted for programme motions in Leader of the House voted for them. I hope, therefore, the past. that we shall not have just half a Government sitting here in September, and that we shall get the full double We have also seen the Government overseeing the act—the full Monty, if I can put it that way. Will the election of Deputy Speakers and Select Committee Deputy Leader of the House give us that assurance Chairmen. Real progress has already been made— when he winds up the debate? The proposal for extra time for voting on deferred Divisions is also a sensible Chris Bryant: But that was put in place by us. one, and I am sure that it will be welcomed by all Members. Mr Bone: The hon. Gentleman says that that was put It is important that Back Benchers have as much time in place by the previous Government, and that is true. as possible to debate these proposals, so I shall leave it Tonight, however, we are taking a huge leap forward at that, but I hope that the Deputy Leader of the House with this raft of radical proposals. The establishment of will be able to answer some of these points later. a business committee, the introduction of September sittings and the speedy announcement of private Members’ Bill days are all signs that the Government have hit the 6.24 pm ground running and are really keen on major reforms. Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): It is surprising But certain things could be improved, and many of the and novel for me to be called to speak so early in a amendments that have been tabled need to be discussed, debate. My speaking note says: “I am delighted to because they could improve on what are already important, follow the hon. Member for X, who made a powerful radical proposals. and thoughtful speech.” Well, the shadow Leader of the In the short time available to me, I want to speak to House did just that. amendment (a), which stands in my name, relating to This is an historic moment. These are radical reforms the number of days allocated to private Members’ Bills. of Parliament and we are lucky to have two outstanding In the Executive’s haste to bring this matter to the parliamentarians in the Leader of the House and the House, they have failed to appreciate that the number of Deputy Leader of the House, both of whom believe in days allowed for private Members’ Bills needs to be the House. If any of my remarks are critical, it is only increased to compensate for the curtailing of private because I want to improve matters. Some of my concerns Members’ Bills in the previous Parliamentary Session. revolve around the fact that there is to be a review in a The amendment states: year’s time, and we are not assured that the same Leader “Line 1, leave out from ‘That’ to end and add— of the House and Deputy Leader of the House will still be sitting at the Dispatch Box then. ‘(1) Standing Order No. 14 (Arrangement of public business) shall have effect for this Session with the following modification, We are leaving behind a decade in which Parliament namely: and the role of Parliament were diminished year by In paragraph (4) the word ‘eighteen’ shall be substituted for the year. Back Benchers’ powers were reduced each year, word ‘thirteen’ in line 42; and there was more centralisation, and debate in Parliament (2) Private Members’ Bills shall have precedence over Government was either extensively curtailed or, in some cases, non- business on 10 and 17 September, 15 and 22 October, 12 and existent. Parts of some Bills went through without even 19 November and 3 December 2010 and 21 January, 4 and being debated in this House, and we had to rely on the 11 February, 4 and 18 March, 1 April, 13 May, 10, 17 and 24 June other place. The media were routinely told in advance and 1 July 2011.’” about new policy before statements were made in the House, and attempts were made by the Whips to crush Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ the thoughts of independent Back Benchers. Parliament Co-op): I am tempted to support the hon. Gentleman’s was seen as a rubber stamp for whatever the Prime amendment, so I wonder whether he could address this 791 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 792 particular point. The Leader of the House said that Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): I having the same number of days for private Members’ fully recognise that the hon. Gentleman wants to move Bills, but extending them over a longer period, would the issue of private Members’ Bills forward, but I am make it easier for those Bills to go through. I did not sure that he heard the words of my very good and hon. understand that; I wonder if the hon. Gentleman could Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr Hamilton) explain it. about using the spare time that exists on a Wednesday evening, for example, so that private Members’ business Mr Bone: I am grateful for that intervention; I have to could be dealt with at that stage. Does the hon. Gentleman say that I thought there was a little bit of smoke and believe he is in a position to convince his Whips that mirrors there. We have already heard the comments that they should take that issue on board? the Leader of the House made during the previous debate on this topic, but some other comments—from Mr Bone: I am grateful for that intervention, which both the Leader of the House and the Deputy Leader deals with a very important point that I will briefly of the House—perhaps express a slightly different view. touch on. There is a problem with the way Fridays are run, but because of how the motions were laid before Chris Bryant: I wholeheartedly support the amendment the House by the Executive, as I said before, I am rather that the hon. Gentleman has tabled on private Members’ limited in what I can say on that particular point. Bills, but I hope he is going to go on to say that the real problem with such Bills is not the number of days we Mr Allen: I am listening carefully to what the hon. devote to them, but the shenanigans that go on on a Gentleman is saying. I am sorry that he has had to delve Friday morning. Either enough people cannot be got into the internecine conflict between the Conservatives together for a quorum or Bills are talked out, and all the and Liberals who now occupy the Front Bench, so I will rest of it. Surely what we need is a system that treats try to help him back to the core of the issue. Does he Back-Bench Members with respect because they might accept that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda have very good ideas that they want to get on to the (Chris Bryant) said, this is not about quantity, but statute book, so we should not be playing these sorts of about quality? If we had fewer private Members’ Bills, silly games. perhaps even only six, but they were brought to a conclusion, that would be much to the credit of this Mr Bone: I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman, House. On this more than any other issue, people outside but because of the way in which the business has been this House look to us. Interest groups, charities and set out today, I have not touched on that matter, as it others invest immense amounts of time in the process, might have been ruled out of order. I have sought to as did my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, amend the motion in the best way I could. Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke), who incredibly Early attempts to increase the time allotted for private managed to get two such Bills through. Does the hon. Members’ Bills under the previous Labour Administration Gentleman agree that we could do better by focusing on sadly fell by the wayside. I very much hope that our new that area? leadership will be taking an altogether happier approach towards something that it is at the heart of ensuring a Mr Bone: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who more balanced and free legislative process. How the shows great interest in these matters. I am aware that I leadership responds will to a certain extent be a litmus am in danger of getting somewhat out of order here, test of the Government’s commitment to the new type Madam Deputy Speaker, but I would say that the hon. of politics. Gentleman is both right and wrong. Yes, we want This is not the first time that I have proposed such an quality, but we also want the same number of days, so amendment. The last time I did so was on 6 January I do not accept that it is an either/or choice. The hon. 2010, when I and several other hon. Members challenged Gentleman is wrong to speak of an alleged dispute the Government on why they were cutting the days between the two parties on the Front Bench. I have an available for debate on private Members’ Bills from 13, interesting quote from the Leader of the House, who as required by the Standing Orders, to a mere eight. was most helpful in the January debate. He was quite The then Government’s answer was that because the right to say he could give no commitment, but let us parliamentary Session was a particularly short one, look at what he did say on 6 January 2010: there should be fewer days pro rata for private Members’ “It is important that the House jealously protects private Bills. I pointed out then that nowhere did the Standing Members’ time… Of course, I sympathise with my hon. Friend’s Orders mention any exemption for unusually short or desire to maximise the number of days for private Members’ long parliamentary Sessions, but the Government won Bills.” the vote that day. He went on to say that one of my I note that, on that day, the Deputy Leader of the “more compelling points was that in a shorter Session, the House voted for my amendment. In fact, on 6 January number of days decreases, but in a longer Session, the number does not increase. The House may want to revert to that in the 2010, he stated: context of the Wright debate and allocating the future business of “I agree with an interesting point that the hon. Member for the House.”—[Official Report, 6 January 2010; Vol. 503, c. 227.] Wellingborough made… Perhaps there should be a provision in Of course, that is exactly what tonight’s debate is about. Standing Orders relating the number of days devoted to private Members’ business to the length of the Session. That would be I do not think that there is a division among the Front perfectly logical and is probably a view shared by the right hon. Benchers on that. Furthermore, when the Leader of the Member for North-West Hampshire. There is logic in saying that House and the Deputy Leader of the House were in there should be more days for a long Session and fewer for a short opposition, they were supportive, and I am sure that Session, and I do not think that any of us would disagree with nothing has changed just because they are now sitting that.”—[Official Report, 6 January 2010; Vol. 503, c. 230.] on the Government side and have red boxes. I genuinely I could not have put it better myself. mean that. 793 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 794

[Mr Bone] private Members’ Bills, I can assure him—as Chairman of the Procedure Committee—that we will examine the I would like to explain to new Members that the issue points that have been made. here is about parliamentary Sessions, most of which run from the beginning of November to the next November. Mr Bone: I think that Members throughout the House Because of the election in May, however, this Session will consider that to be good news. There are problems will run from May until November 2011, which makes with private Members’ Bills, and it would be most it particularly long. All my amendment would do is welcome if the Procedure Committee could examine restore the five days for private Members’ Bills that were them. lost in the last Session to this unusually long Session. Any member of the public reading this debate in Mr Cash: In the light of what has just been said by Hansard might wonder why we should spend parliamentary my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire time on such a seemingly arcane matter. However, private (Mr Knight)—the Chairman of the Procedure Members’Bills are vital for democracy, and every individual Committee—and in the light of the important points in the country should have been worried about the made by my hon. Friend, does my hon. Friend accept growing power of the Executive over the last 10 years. that any restriction on the number of days will exert Private Members’ Bills are important because they provide pressure on private Members’ Bills? For example, a Bill one of the few chances for Members of Parliament who may need more time, particularly on Report. In my are not part of the Executive to initiate, debate and 26 years in the House, I have so often seen Bills fall at ultimately create legislation, thus giving power and that point because they needed Government time to influence to Parliament and Back-Bench Members—outside reach their final stages and that was not possible. My the direct control of the Government. hon. Friend is entirely right to insist that the maximum There are many issues that Governments fail to recognise possible number of days should be available. as important, but individual Members might see them as a priority. For example, in my view there should be Mr Bone: I thank my hon. Friend. I was intending to an Act of Parliament requiring children to wear cycle deal with that issue shortly. helmets when they are riding on the public highway, but I suggested five additional days to balance the Sessions, the Government will not necessarily want to bring such but I have not moved the trigger forward. That means legislation forward. Equally, and perhaps more worryingly, that after the eighth private Members’ Friday progress because Government and Opposition Front Benchers can be made on Bills, which will make it easier for take the same view on some important issues, they Members taking part in the ballot to ensure that their might not get aired in Parliament or be made subject to Bills are heard and passed into law. I thought that there a substantive motion in the House. An example might was a bit of smoke and mirrors in the statement by the be a referendum on our membership of the European Leader of the House. Union. That is clearly an important issue, but the two I have not much more to say, but I want to tell the Front-Bench teams can collude so that it never gets debated, House where I think the five extra days should go. I was whereas a Back-Bench Member could introduce such a going to say something about Wednesdays, but that Bill. Indeed, some issues might have no hope of ever getting point has already been dealt with. I propose—this touches passed into law, but they are so important that they on a point made earlier about September sittings—that should be discussed and drawn to the public’s attention. two of the extra days should be in September, so that There has been a great deal of upheaval in politics the September weeks become even more important. I over the past year. We have a coalition Government and was not here on the last occasion when the House sat in Liberal Ministers. Just a few weeks ago such a situation September, but I understand that there was a feeling would have been unthinkable, but I have to say that the that the House was almost “going through the motions”. addition of Liberal Ministers to the Government has If two of those Fridays were devoted to private Members’ been remarkably successful so far as they have seemed Bills, the sittings would become even more important. I to turn themselves into neo-Conservatives. have also proposed adding one day in October this year, Let me make a more serious point. We have a remarkably one day in June, and one day in July next year. Sittings large intake of new Members of Parliament in all on those days would inconvenience no one, and would parties, who have shown themselves to be very impressive add dramatically to parliamentary democracy. and independent-minded. I have sat here and been Another of the last Government’s objections to more amazed at the style and substance of maiden speeches. sitting Fridays was that they would somehow prevent Surely that proves to everyone that the public are hungry Members from carrying out constituency business. As for change, and if we are to deliver that change—which my staff members have reminded me today, constituency means more than just setting up reviews on transparency, business continues throughout the week, and is certainly or creating an unworkable expenses system—we must not restricted to Fridays. Moreover—new Members ensure that Back Benchers can hold this Government to may not know this—Members do not come to the account, and that the House is truly a place for debate. House on days when private Members’ Bills are debated As the Speaker said recently, MPs must become citizens unless they are interested in those Bills. Normally there of the Chamber, and as I look around the Chamber is no Whip to ensure that Members attend, so there tonight, I see a very good example of that. I think that would be no requirement for a full House. there are more Members in the Chamber now than we saw at almost any time in the last Parliament. In proposing the five additional days, I am merely suggesting that the number should be returned to what Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): Although a would be expected in a normal two-year cycle. In a number of issues that have been raised tonight are two-year period, we would expect 26 Fridays for private outwith my hon. Friend’s amendment, which relates to Members’ Bills. Given that there were only eight in the 795 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 796 last Session, an additional 18 in the current Session control over our time. When I was on the Wright would produce the 26 that would normally have occurred. Committee I produced a minority report, but I consistently I am not proposing to increase the number of days for supported the establishment of a Back-Bench business private Members’ Bills; I am proposing to keep it in line Committee. I have always thought that, if established in with the spirit of Standing Orders and the House. the right way and for the right reasons, it could not just The public are still clamouring for change in the way make debates livelier, but give Members much more in which politics is conducted, and for a check on the control and a greater feeling of ownership of debates. power of the Executive. Parliament must be allowed to Moreover, if we, as Back Benchers, could decide what fulfil its role, and Members of Parliament must be issue to debate, by definition they would become more allowed freedom to express their opinions and those of topical. their constituents. How the Government respond to this Many members of the Wright Committee are present issue will be an important public indication of their today. I believe that our motivation was the same: we commitment to real openness. I am pleased to have wanted to make proceedings in Parliament far more received a pledge from them that this will be a free vote, open and transparent. The detail is being discussed and that there will be no guidance from the Whips. This today, but the principle of the proposal was transparency. is a genuine House matter, and it could lead to a huge What people really objected to was not having an input, leap forward. Tonight, Members will have a chance to and not being able to see what was decided behind express their opinions about private Members’ Bills closed doors. The purpose of the Wright Committee without any influence. was to begin re-establishing trust between not just the House, but us—its Members—and those who have elected Mr Chope: My hon. Friend is making a brilliant us to represent and serve them. If we are to do justice to speech. Can he confirm, in his peroration, that there is that intention, we must be much more open and transparent no reason why any Back Bencher should vote against about what we do here. Without openness and transparency, his amendment? If a Back Bencher were so to do, they people outside cannot have any say about what we do, would be voting against the interests of other Back far less have any influence on what we do. Benchers, and the only people who can possibly lose out In supporting the establishment of a Back-Bench if his amendment is carried are members of the committee, I think that we need to guard against a few Government. things. We need to ask ourselves whether we are making a change for change’s sake. In the case of the Back-Bench Mr Bone: I agree and disagree with my hon. Friend. I committee, that is absolutely not the case—it is a necessary, agree with his remark about Back Benchers, but I also good change. We also need to guard against unforeseen believe that it is very much in the interests of the consequences. The hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire Government and Front Benchers to support my (Jo Swinson) spoke earlier about the membership of amendment, because that would show that the Executive Select Committees and said that the proposals on are open to scrutiny and new ideas. nominating Chairs and members excluded some of the We are experiencing the dawn of a new age. We have a minor parties. Those are all examples of unforeseen coalition Government who are charging forward with consequences. We need to take our time and to be reform. If I have an opportunity to do so, Madam careful to ensure that this is as open, transparent and Deputy Speaker, I shall press my amendment to a vote. fair as possible, so that we do not have unforeseen consequences—or even foreseen consequences. My greatest concern—the thing that we most need to 6.47 pm guard against, which I mentioned again and again when Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): I I was on the Select Committee and afterwards—is in welcome you to the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker. relation to the transfer of power from one elite to I have not had the opportunity to congratulate you another. The way that the Back-Bench committee is to since your election. be formulated and the way that its membership is to be elected means there is a danger of transferring power Before I deal with the main issue, I want to reflect a from the Whips Office, where deals are done behind little on the time when we all served on the Wright closed doors and we learn what deal has been done Committee. when it is announced here by Front Benchers, to another back room where seven members and the Chair of the Mr Allen: Happy days. Back-Bench committee make the decision. I am not convinced that a member of that committee making an Natascha Engel: They were indeed happy days, and announcement of five minutes or less about its deliberations, very interesting. I am sorry that Tony Wright is not here or laying a report before the House about those to take part in the debate. I also want, especially, to say deliberations, is enough. I would much rather see all the a big thank you to Mark Fisher, who did so much work proceedings—every meeting—held in public. That is with Parliament First, and to Evan Harris. He, too, is the only way in which we can ensure absolute openness no longer with us. The Chamber misses him greatly, and and transparency. Not only that—it will engage people I hate to think how he feels about not being in the outside in what Back Benchers do in dealing with Chamber any more; indeed, it does not bear thinking business here. It will engage them in a way that we have about. never engaged the public before. That would be a massive I may not have agreed with the conclusions reached leap forward. by the people whom I have mentioned, but I certainly All of us would like to see an end to the current agreed with much of the analysis of the problem that we system of power and patronage held by the Whips, but had here in Parliament—in the context of scrutiny of we would be naive to think that, just by moving the the Executive, what we did as Back Benchers, and our power away from the Whips and giving it to a small 797 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 798

[Natascha Engel] starting point has to be that we want to be open, transparent and accessible to the public. I take my hon. group of Back Benchers, we will get rid of the patronage. Friend’s point but our starting point has to be openness. We will not. If meetings of the Back-Bench committee I want to ask a few specific questions about the way are held behind closed doors, there will just be a direct in which the Back-Bench committee will work. I have transfer of patronage from the Whips Office to the written them down. I will read them out and pass them Back-Bench committee. over behind the Speaker’s Chair so that the Minister does not have to take copious notes. Given that the Pete Wishart: The hon. Lady is making a powerful Back-Bench business committee is going to be a Select point about the transfer of power from one Westminster Committee, does that mean that members of the public elite to another Westminster elite. Does she therefore will not be excluded from the meetings? It is not mentioned not see some merit in the amendment that I have tabled either way in the motions. Does it mean that members to increase the membership of the committee to 16 to of the public can attend those meetings, or are they ensure that we get a bigger range of people on it? In that excluded from the meetings of the committee? way, there will be a minority party member on it, as well The same goes for MPs who are not members of the Back-Benchers from all sides of the House. Back-Bench committee. Will they be allowed to attend Natascha Engel: That is something that we should even the private meetings of the committee? Will they look at. Smaller memberships are not beneficial—we be there during its deliberations? What will the committee’s should look at having a much wider membership. party political make-up be? Has there been an arrangement that we do not know about yet on the allocation of the I want to look at the ways in which we can participate different memberships? If so, what will they be? How better, not just as Members, but by engaging people many of the seats will be allocated to the smaller parties who have an interest in this matter. Many democracy and to Independents? organisations and members of the public have a deep Can a chair of another Select Committee stand to be interest in what we do. The instinct to restrict the size of elected either as the chair of the Back-Bench committee things is a bad one—I would much rather see it broadened or as one of its members? Whatever the answer to that out. is, I would love to know who made the decision, because Mr Allen: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s strong, the amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the clear and valuable contributions in the Wright Committee. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller) I must, however, perhaps test her on one thing. If we was not selected. I will pass those questions over via the had a business committee that always met in public, back of the Chair. I thank hon. Members for their would there not be a danger that some of the necessary attention. decisions that have to be taken on a give-and-take, wheeler-dealer basis, where someone does one thing 6.58 pm and another person does another and where things are Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): As this is postponed, would go into the undergrowth? We might the first time I have spoken while you have been in the be no better off. Although I agree that some of the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker, I take the opportunity sittings should be in public, other sittings would benefit to congratulate you on your new position. I am delighted from being in private. to follow the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), who made a powerful and convincing Natascha Engel rose— case in favour of transparency in relation to the Back-Bench business committee, which I wholeheartedly endorse. I Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. endorse also what she said about three former Members: May I say to the hon. Lady that the amendment that the Tony Wright, Evan Harris and Mark Fisher, who did so hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) is much to campaign for the committee and to bring it encouraging her to discuss has not been selected? May I to fruition. also say that I am letting the debate run, but the I am somewhat disappointed that we are discussing interventions are getting a little long now, so could we this today. The reason for my disappointment is that, in keep them sharply related to the debate? the previous Parliament, on 4 March, the House passed a motion saying that it looked forward to the House Natascha Engel: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. being offered the opportunity The amendment was not selected, and that is a great shame. However, it will at least be a marker, and something “to establish, in time for the start of the next Parliament, a backbench business committee”. to campaign on in future. I will discuss that with my hon. Friend later. We are several weeks into the new Parliament. Unfortunately, that was not done in time for the start of On the reason that we seek to establish a Back-Bench this Parliament. That was despite assurances from the business committee, the idea that we should bring things right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and out into the open, and whether those meetings should Peckham (Ms Harman), who said: be in public or in private, the first motion states that the Back-Bench committee “I can assure the House that we will bring forward the Standing Orders, and there will be an opportunity for the House to endorse “shall be a select committee”. them before the next election.”—[Official Report, 11 March 2010; On the whole, Select Committees—I think that this is Vol. 507, c. 433.] mentioned in “Erskine May”—have public meetings. She also said: That is part of the point of Select Committees. They are “I am under a duty and a responsibility to ensure that this not just bodies of scrutiny; they are also bodies of happens before the next Parliament”.—[Official Report, 18 March public engagement. Although deals will be done, our 2010; Vol. 507, c. 986.] 799 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 800

Unfortunately, that did not happen, which is a great of the House for Back-Bench business. It is also worth tragedy, but perhaps it should also serve as a salutary looking at the innovative use of time to create room for lesson for those of us in this House who are keen to see Back-Bench business. For instance, Tuesday mornings reforms progress in general—I suspect that that is most and Wednesday evenings have already been mentioned of the Members present in the Chamber—that there is in reference to private Member business. not always an easy path to reform. It is therefore The next issue I want to raise in respect of the important that those of us who are reform-minded Back-Bench business committee is to do with permanence. make sure we continue to campaign, rather than assume It has been suggested that its members should be re-elected that everything will be fine just because the House has every year, and that there should be a review of its agreed to a motion on something or other. progress and how well it is working in a year’s time. In I am, however, absolutely delighted that the Leader some ways, that sounds very good. As a democrat, I like of the House and my hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of elections; and as somebody who likes to learn how we the House have introduced these motions so speedily in can do things better, a review might sound like a good the new Parliament, and I think that goes some way idea. Taken together, however, these proposals cause a towards making amends for the House’s inability to get certain amount of concern, and there is a genuine things done before Dissolution. I am especially pleased danger that such a review might be used to try to get rid to see my hon. Friend in his new post; he was made for of the Back-Bench business committee, and that if the it, as he has always been a staunch defender of Parliament, committee were seen as being too effective, annual and, indeed, of Back Benchers. I know that all of us elections might be used as an opportunity for the Whips who are eager for reform to happen take great comfort to remove a particularly effective Chair. from knowing that the Leader of the House and the Deputy Leader of the House are also very much reform- One issue of pertinence in that regard is who will vote minded. for the committee members. If the Government in effect have a block vote of more than 100 MPs, it will become In terms of control of the business of the House, the very difficult for any candidate who is not supported by proposals are indeed an historic transfer of power from the Government to become the Chair of the committee. the Government to Back Benchers. The new Government We recently elected the Chairs of Select Committees are passionate about decentralisation, and perhaps that and the convention as originally recommended by the decentralisation is starting at home. My comments will Procedure Committee was that Ministers and Parliamentary be highly supportive of the Leader and Deputy Leader’s Private Secretaries of the relevant Department would efforts to make progress with reform, but I also want to not vote in the election of the departmental Select tease out some issues that could be improved upon still Committee Chair. Although this was not made explicit further. in the Wright report, I wonder whether it may be It is clearly excellent that the Back-Bench business possible for the Government to take the same self-denying committee will now be set up as a result of the motions ordinance in voting for members of the Back-Bench laid before the House today, but there is still a slight business committee and its Chair. It does not seem concern about the number of days allocated, as I raised unreasonable for the Back-Bench business committee, in business questions last week. The Wright report which represents Back Benchers, to be elected by Back suggested 35 days for Back-Bench business. I understand Benchers. If that can be done, it might assuage some of that the Leader and Deputy Leader’s motivation for the concerns about annual elections. splitting the 35 days between this House and Westminster I also want to press my hon. Friend the Deputy Hall is to enable proper scrutiny of legislation by allocating Leader about the same issue on which I intervened on additional days to the Report stages of Bills. It has been the Leader of the House: motion 3(1)(c). That is not a valid criticism of how Bills have progressed that they only about the Chair of the Back-Bench business have not received proper scrutiny on Report and entire committee; it is about any candidate to become a member swathes of Bills have been left undiscussed on the Floor of the Committee. It clearly states that of the candidate’s of the House. I understand the motivation, therefore, nominations, but I very much hope that at least amendment (a) to motion 4, which would insert a reference to 27 days into “no fewer than ten shall be members of the candidate’s party”. Standing Order No. 14, will be accepted. That would That would exclude members of the Scottish National certainly go some way towards giving reassurance. party, Plaid Cymru, the other minority parties and, [Interruption.] I am very pleased that that is the case. indeed, independent candidates. There is another issue I wish to raise, and which I hope my hon. Friend the Deputy Leader will be able to The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of address in his winding-up speech. I appreciate that these the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): I am most measures are about moving towards Wright rather than grateful to my hon. Friend as she has, I think, spotted a about the Wright reforms being implemented all in one defect in the proposals, but I have to say that it is not a go, so in respect of this agreement that there will be defect in the proposals of my right hon. Friend the 27 days of Back-Bench business in the Chamber, will Leader of the House and myself; it is, rather, a defect in there also be a move towards increasing the number of the proposals from the Wright Committee, which, days from 27 in the future? I hope my hon. Friend will unfortunately, was not spotted in the motion drafted by be able to say something positive about that, as that the Committee. I entirely accept what my hon. Friend would be very helpful. says about the unfortunate effects of that, and I think Obviously, we are at the very beginning of a new we may want to look at it again. I hope, however, that Parliament with a new Government so the legislative she will accept our defence, which is that here we have programme is heavy, but perhaps as the Parliament religiously stuck to the recommendation and, indeed, continues there might be additional time on the Floor the draft motion of the Wright Committee. 801 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 802

Jo Swinson: I greatly appreciate that intervention from Jo Swinson: I agree absolutely with the hon. Gentleman, my hon. Friend, and that reassurance. I am sure that and I think that the amendment standing in the name of this can be solved. The Speaker certainly seems to be the hon. Member for Wellingborough is sensible. As he given a lot of power in these elections as almost a de outlined, it just deals with the fair allocation of the facto returning officer, so I suspect a solution can equivalent of 13 days per year—or 26 days over two be found. years. My amendments would also allow the Back-Bench I shall now turn to the issue of private Member’s Bills business committee to programme the remaining stages and the two amendments in my name: amendment (d) of private Members’ Bills, so that once a Bill had to motion 2 and amendment (b) to motion 4. I want to received its Second Reading a timetabling motion could share with the House why I think this is an important be tabled and, thus, the ability of Members to talk out issue, although I also appreciate that some new Members the Bill would be removed at that stage. Although I are present and I do not wish to scare them or put them think that that ability should be gone from the beginning off. I just want to describe my experience of the horror of proceedings on such Bills, and that people who wish of Friday sittings. to defeat them should do so on the merits of the argument and through a vote of this House, my One of the first Friday sittings I attended dealt with a amendments would be a good step in the right direction. private Member’s Bill sponsored by the hon. Member Making a change on the ability to programme private for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz). Members’ Bill would be helpful. His Bill was on climate change and I was keen to support it, and many of my constituents were also keen I was pleased to hear the Chair of the Procedure for me to do so. The second Bill on the Order Paper was Committee say that his Committee will examine this about the management of energy in buildings, and we issue more widely, because I accept that my amendment thought that because there would be five hours of and that of the hon. Member for Wellingborough deal business in the Chamber, we might be able to get one only with small parts of the problem and that the issue Second Reading finished and have another one well of private Members’ Bills and Friday sittings needs to under way. We had not counted, however, on a two-hour be examined much more in the round and more generally. speech from one Member, and then another Member I urge that such a report should be conducted quickly standing up to try to make a speech of a similar length. and acted on soon, so that we do not lose the momentum for reform. We do not want there to be an excuse to kick In order to get a private Member’s Bill passed, there these issues into the long grass. I hope that if we do get need to be 100 MPs for the closure vote, so there were some good recommendations, the demoralising and dozens of MPs in the Chamber who had come along to soul-destroying experience that many MPs have sat support this private Member’s Bill. Indeed, some of through on frustrating Fridays will be a thing of the past. them wanted to make some comments on the record, I was pleased to hear that motion 13 is not going to perhaps through an intervention, but had we all done be moved this evening, because that motion is one of that, the Bill would have been talked out, and all the best arguments against leaving things to the usual because one or two Members were being, frankly, quite channels that I have come across in a long time. Expanding rude about using up time to talk it out. three Select Committees to 16 members was a very I remember sitting in the Chamber and thinking that inelegant solution, and the fact that it was cooked up by if I wanted the Bill to go through, I would just have to the Whips without even consulting the Chairs of those be quiet and say nothing—and not even say that I Committees beggars belief. The Wright report made it supported the Bill. I accepted that but, along with many clear that 11 should be the maximum number of members other new Members at the time, I left the Chamber on a Select Committee, but we face a genuine problem appalled and furious that this was the way we did our in ensuring that the minority parties are represented. business, and I thought that it absolutely had to change. There are different ways of solving that difficulty. In I also remember that when I spoke to Members who the previous Parliament, when the Liberal Democrats had been in the House for longer than me, it was clear were in opposition, we made sure that some of the that they had got used to things as they said, “Well, places that we were allocated went to the minority that’s the way it is.” I thought to myself that I never parties. I know that that certainly happened from time wanted to accept that such a ridiculous way of working to time on Committees such as those discussing statutory is the way it had to be. I suspect that current new MPs instruments. One solution might, thus, be for Labour to would be equally appalled if that happened, but I am be similarly generous. Another solution might be to add sure that there will be an opportunity to make a change, one minority party representative to these Committees, because there needs to be one. rather than for them to have an additional four members also. If necessary, in order to maintain the Government- Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ Opposition balance, perhaps we could add a Government Co-op): I well remember the progress of that particular Member, but the arguments for adding five extra people private Member’s Bill, and I am grateful for the hon. to Select Committees do not stand up. I am pleased that Lady’s support on that occasion. She will also recall the Government have listened on this issue and are that that Bill came back not only on one Friday, but that going away to find a better solution—it is important it had to come back a total of three Fridays precisely that a solution is found. because some Members chose to use their right to speak In conclusion, when we examine the issues in the at length. Does she agree that that underlines that until spirit of the Wright report we also need not to forget such time as there is a more fundamental reform of that further reform is required; radical and exciting as procedure for private Member’s Bills, we do not want to today’s reforms are, this process should not stop here. lose any days for private Member’s Bill discussion on The “Involving the public” section of the Wright report Friday, which is why we support the amendment of the contained a lot of good ideas, but much further work hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone)? needed to be done, particularly on petitioning and the 803 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 804 online engagement of this place. Good ideas come always very helpful, and I then spoke to John Borley, from, and reformers can be found in, all parts of this who is the Officer in Parliament responsible for all our House, and on issues such as these we have been practising building and maintenance works, along with Mel Barlex. the new politics for a very long time in our cross-party I meet them regularly because I was a member of the working. With the Leader and the Deputy Leader both Finance and Services Committee in the previous Parliament being so positively disposed to reform, I, for one, am and a member of the Administration Estimate Audit optimistic that most of the motions on today’s Order Committee too. The meetings were not always terribly Paper will constitute an important next step in the vital exciting, but they were crucial. reform of this House. John Borley told me that they had rightly anticipated that the House might want to sit in September. With a 7.13 pm new Government perhaps coming in they could not Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): I welcome guarantee that, but the thought was that it could happen you to the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker, as other and that at a beginning of a Parliament, because business Members have rightly done. First, I wish to reflect on might not happen quite so early, there would be a need how pleasing it is that we are discussing not whether the for legislation to come through then. As Officers, they procedures of this House should be reformed, but how rightly predicted that September sittings might be held that should be done. We have taken the debate forward and they set their maintenance programmes up accordingly. from the Wright report today, and it is pleasing that the Therefore, there will not be any dramatic effect this year House has chosen to do so. in terms of altering what was already in train and what was already being planned. I wish to concentrate particularly on one aspect that has not been mentioned very much, if at all, and about My concern is that on these sorts of issues we do not which the Wright Committee had some discussions; bother to take account of the people who have to do the feelings were equally divided about September sittings, detailed professional work in building up maintenance but clearly the Government have chosen that we should programmes that keep this building functioning, not resume the practice of having them, at least for this merely as a place of work, but as one of the most parliamentary year. We held an experiment about seven important historic buildings in this country—that is or eight years ago, when we came back in two successive important too. We have seen the work that has been Septembers, without having particularly glorious results. done on the cast-iron roofs, which has been crucial in On one occasion, we managed two votes in a fortnight, keeping the fabric of this building going. and we encountered certain problems with the hunt I know that in the past there has been an awful lot of supporters getting into the Chamber because of security criticism of how we have managed the parliamentary issues resulting from the amount of construction work estate. We encountered major difficulties with Portcullis being carried out on the site while the House was House and problems with the visitor reception area, sitting. and they created major problems for the budget of Parliament. We have run over budget and over time on It is often made out that supporters of September the visitor reception area, which was an unhappy experience sittings are reformers and those who do not support from which we have had to learn the lessons. With the them have their heads in the sand and are looking appointment of these new Officers to manage our backwards. In fact, there can be a genuine division of parliamentary estate, I have seen a much higher degree view on how Members would most productively spend of professionalism, and a much greater willingness to their time in September—whether that is in the House plan ahead, to look at the options, difficulties and costs or in their constituencies—and on how much time this involved, and to see how we can develop a forward Parliament sits for compared with other Parliaments programme for budgeting, which is crucial. I have also around the world. However, I wish to raise a more seen the work of the Administration Estimate Audit boring, domestic issue relating to the functioning of Committee and how internal auditors now work with it this place. to try to ensure that we have best practice in procurement. I wish to discuss maintenance and the building’s Officers will say two things to us. First, they will say being fit for the purpose of enabling meetings to take that they need a degree of stability and of advance place at which the Government are held to account. It is warning, because it is not sufficient simply to try to no use passing motions that say that the job of this pick, on a whim, when Parliament will sit on a year-by-year House is to hold the Government to account—of course, basis. We need significant and serious forward planning that is its job—if we do not have a building in which so that Parliament looks, as quickly as possible, at the that can properly be done. Having lots of construction longer-term arrangements over a number of years and work going on around us as we carry out that function gives the Officers advice about when it will be sitting was not a happy experience when we tried it before. and when time will be free to carry out essential maintenance When we consider Government Bills, Government work. The second thing that those people will say is that legislation or private Members’ Bills, we try to inform if, having examined the situation, Parliament is bent on ourselves of all the issues involved. However, this House having simply a five-week recess year on year, it will not has a terrible habit when we discuss this sort of domestic be possible to keep the building in which we work—and issue. Things seem like a good idea, we vote one way or that we treasure and have grow to love over the years—in the other—if we are allowed a vote on such matters—and a proper state of repair. then we pass on without any proper advice and information If hon. Members have any doubts about the situation, having been made available to Members. they should take a trip down to the underground passages When I saw the September sittings motion on the under the House to look at the state at the mechanical, Order Paper, I was pleased that it referred to this engineering and electrical systems, because they are parliamentary year only. I took the opportunity to go to very bad indeed. We know that a massive work programme the chief executive’s office, where Philippa Helme is will be needed. That will need planning, organising and 805 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 806

[Mr Clive Betts] sorry—we would have Chairs sprouting everywhere. Those parties should have at least three members of the funding, and it must be cost-effective. If we can shut other Committees, and those places should come out down the building for only five weeks at a time, it will of the Opposition quota. I know that this might be probably not be possible to carry out the programme. controversial among Labour Members but, by my It is not sufficient that I report these concerns to hon. reckoning, the Labour quota provides for 4.39 people Members second hand, so it is important that proper on each Committee. When that number is rounded reports are made to the Commission and the Finance down, as it should be, it implies four members, although and Services Committee, with the audit Committee we will all have noticed that the Labour party is getting having a look, so that there can be a report to the whole five members per Committee. The obvious solution is to House to inform Members’ decisions. We should try to provide the three Committees cited in motion 13 with a plan our sittings for a whole Parliament, which would combined quota for the Opposition parties. There are also help Members to organise their activities outside 23 Members representing “others”, so their quota comes the House. If we could achieve all that, we could better out as 0.39. When 4.39 is added to 0.39, the result is a approach these issues that are crucial to our working, figure of just under five, so that is reasonable justification even though they are quite dry and sometimes turgid for adopting such an approach. matters that might not excite people politically. It is also important that we send a message to the public that if Pete Wishart: I thank the new Chair of the Treasury we have to make cuts to the services that they receive—we Committee for giving way. I totally agree with his might disagree about where the cuts should fall and powerful point that the minority parties should get how great they should be—we will take proper account three Chairs. However, does he agree that we should be of the money that we have for the House and ensure over-representing minority parties to ensure that their that we spend it cost-effectively. Unless we carry out voices are adequately heard? Such parties get more seats proper planning, however, that simply will not happen. than they are entitled to in the Scottish Parliament and It is absolutely right that, if the Government wish, we the Welsh Assembly, so surely we should follow that should come back in September on the basis of the example here. motion. However, if we are looking at future sittings, planning will be required, as will proper advice from the Mr Tyrie: As someone who comes from a large party, Officers who run the Palace of Westminster for us. All I will not rush to argue that the smaller parties should Members should have access to that advice before voting be over-represented, but I hope that the hon. Gentleman on such sittings in the future. and I can make common cause that they should be adequately represented. I advise him not to over-egg 7.21 pm things but to take the support that he is getting at the Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): I welcome you moment to justify increasing their membership—not to the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker, and congratulate Chairs—by three across the 24 Committees, albeit without you on your election. wrecking those Committees by increasing their membership by too much. The fact that motion 13 has been pulled makes my life a lot easier, and my main intention now is put down The increase in the membership of some Committees a marker to ensure that we do not get something that is to 16 must have been proposed by people who were almost as bad next week. determined to ensure that those Committees could not Before I talk about the size of Select Committees, operate effectively. Anyone who has worked on a large however, I should say that we are fortunate to have such Select Committee will know that that can be difficult. It an enlightened Leader of the House—I am glad that he is not easy to achieve cross-party consensus on such a has just returned to the Chamber. If it were not for him, Committee, and its members come together less and are in his role as shadow Leader of the House and now as less cohesive. I have served on the Treasury Committee Leader of the House, we would not have made anything twice. The first time was when it was a Committee of 11 like as much progress on a business committee or the and it worked very well. When I returned to the Committee strengthening of Select Committees. A less enlightened a little under a couple of years ago, however, its membership Leader of the House would have found a reason to kick had increased to 14, which led to several difficulties. much of this into the long grass for the convenience of Many of its members were unable to participate in the his ministerial colleagues, not least his blood brother, questioning of particular witnesses, and several hearings the Chief Whip—I cannot help wondering whether that during which everyone wanted to participate were extremely is a sort a Jacob-Esau relationship. long. It was impossible to hold a short hearing, and although we got by, it was with difficulty. That was why I am, of course, very glad that the Leader of the the Liaison Committee proposed limiting the membership House has pulled the motion that would have increased of Select Committees to 11 and why the Wright Committee the membership of three Committees from 11 to 16, the suggested limiting the membership to nine, although it ostensive reason for which was that we needed to provide said that it could live with 11. It was also why the better representation on Select Committees for minority Leader of the House concluded much the same, as we parties. I strongly agree that those parties need appropriate heard from the quotation that was cited earlier. representation, but the argument that an increase in the size of Select Committees is required to achieve that is I note that the coalition agreement of 20 May states: completely bogus. “We will bring forward the proposals of the Wright Committee The minority parties must have adequate representation for reform to the House of Commons in full”. on the territorial Committees—I am appalled that they If that means anything, it must be that a Select Committee’s do not—and they should have three Chairs on the other membership will be nine or 11, but not more. I am sure Committees. [HON.MEMBERS: “Seats, not Chairs.”] I am that I speak for all the newly elected Select Committee 807 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 808

Chairs when I say that we should stick with nine or 11, basis. That opportunity should not be confined to the but not more, and I hope that Front Benchers are three main parties of the House. The minority parties listening. have to get on the Liaison Committee. Then there is the biggest disappointment of all: the 7.28 pm Wright proposals. We are to be excluded for all the “good”reasons. We are excluded in the name of democratic Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): reform and making the House accountable—things that Madam Deputy Speaker, you are the last of the new we agree with. There will be no place for us on the Deputy Speakers whom I am able to congratulate on Back-Bench business committee. It is just not possible your election and elevation. It is always good to leave that there will be, given that it has eight members; it is the best till last—if that does not get me called early in not going to happen. I just wish that the Wrightinistas, debates, I do not know what will. as I call them—those pioneers of reform, those champions Is it not unfortunate that we have heard no maiden making sure that this place is much more accountable, speeches today? I am really missing the kaleidoscope out there fighting the good fight against the dark forces tours of UK constituencies that we have become used of the Government Whips—would concede that, and to hearing each day, but perhaps a new Member can run acknowledge that on a Committee of eight, there is to the Chamber and get in. absolutely no way of that happening. Although I am probably alone in this, I cannot share Mr Allen: When the hon. Gentleman got to his feet, the enthusiasm for the Back-Bench business committee he had a great deal of sympathy from all parts of the and the great reforming zeal of the Wright proposals. House, but now that he is flailing around, blaming There are serious problems for the minority parties. We absolutely everybody, he is in danger of losing his have already recognised some of the problems that have friends as rapidly as he made them on this issue. The inadvertently been created, and I am grateful to the Wright Committee proposed that on every Committee Leader of the House and his deputy for trying to of the House there be one reserve place for the Speaker address our concerns and for speedily withdrawing to allocate—a Speaker’s pick—so that justice could be motion 13. I, like all my colleagues, am grateful to both done. That place might be for the minority parties or, of them for ensuring that the question of whether indeed, those with minority opinions within larger parties. minority party Members can be considered for Select That proposal was not brought forward, but that was Committees will be addressed. the doing of not the Wrightinistas, or whatever pejorative The hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) term the hon. Gentleman wishes to make up, but the —unfortunately, she is no longer in the Chamber—made Government and the Front Benchers of the day. a pertinent point about the quota for securing a place Pete Wishart: I thought “the Wrightinistas” was quite on the Back-Bench committee. We just cannot do it. We an endearing term. If the hon. Gentleman takes offence, have only six Members. Plaid Cymru has only three. I am sorry about it, but he is being a tad sensitive. He is The Democratic Unionist party is the largest of the possibly right that what was suggested by Wright was minority parties, and the fourth largest party in the probably okay, but there have been inadvertent mistakes, House, but it cannot do it. I am glad that there is a such as the 10-Member quota; that was a result of the genuine attempt to address the matter and. Hopefully, Wright Committee, and there is a problem with that. we can make sure that we are in the race to get a place if Thank goodness that the Front Benchers have decided we can increase membership of the Committee to a that they will address that. The hon. Gentleman cannot reasonable size that will allow us the opportunity to in all honesty say that the Wright proposals were bulletproof, participate in the House. soundproof and correct in every instance, because they This has not been a good few weeks for the minority were proven to be wrong in that instance. parties; things have been really poor. I do not know The hon. Gentleman is right, but it seems to us that what is going on. I came back to the House expecting we are caught in the middle of a fight between the that we would secure more input into the House and Wrightinistas—I apologise to him—and the Whips. It is better representation, but since coming back we have a fight between the two big boys in the playground. experienced further entrenched exclusion. Last week, They are battering lumps out of each other, trying to the Deputy Prime Minister got to his feet in the House gain ascendency, and all of a sudden they see the little and announced a new Committee on reform of the boy sitting eating his piece in the bike shed. That is House of Lords. There was no consultation with the us—the minority parties. It is we on whom they have minority parties—or much consultation with the rest of decided to take out all their frustrations, we who are the parties. We found that there would be no place for losing places on Committees, and we who are being minority parties on that Committee. There is now a excluded in this House. It just is not right or fair. We Political and Constitutional Reform Committee. should be on Select Committees, and we should be Constitutional reform is what our parties are about; it is making sure that we make our contribution. our reason for being here, but there is no place on the Where we have served on Select Committees, we have Committee for the minority parties. made a constructive, useful contribution, as has been There is still no resolution on the issue of the Liaison recognised by several Members from across the House Committee. Fair enough, we do not have a Chair of a tonight. We have played a part on cross-party Committees Select Committee, but the Liaison Committee is a Select of the House, trying to ensure positive reforms, particularly Committee of the House, and arithmetically, we are with regard to expenses. My hon. Friend the Member entitled to a place on it. That was conceded by the for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) served on the former Government, and I hope that it is conceded by Wright Committee, and pointed out some of the those on the Government Front Bench. We need that inconsistencies and difficulties that emerged. Unfortunately, opportunity to question the Prime Minister on a monthly he was not listened to on those issues. 809 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 810

Mr Cash: I feel strongly that the case that the hon. through an election, but there will be some sort of Gentleman puts is entirely justified. It is incredibly mechanism or procedure to ensure that Labour, Liberal important to remember that according to “Erskine and Conservative Members are on it. That is 100% May”, the first duty of the Speaker is to protect minorities. certain; I bet you any money, Madam Deputy Speaker, That is absolutely fundamental. There is no reason that there will be one Member from each of those three whatever that I can think of why any Member from a parties on the Committee. It is also almost entirely minority party, be they an independent, or a member of certain—again, I bet you any money—that there will be Plaid Cymru, the Scottish National party, or the Democratic no Member from the minority parties on it. We have to Unionist party, should ever be excluded from full change that; we have to ensure that that does not come participation in the House. to pass. My amendment suggests that we increase the number Pete Wishart: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s of members of the Back-Bench business committee intervention. He is right. As I said to the hon. Member from eight to 16. Why 16, you ask, Madam Deputy for Chichester (Mr Tyrie), minorities should be respected. Speaker? It is because that always seems to be the magic If anything, we should be over-represented to ensure number at which we start to come into play. that differing voices are heard. What is wrong with hearing diverse voices in this House? What are people indicated dissent. afraid of? Of course we should be on Select Committees Mr Heath and should be part of them. The Government should be listening to this, because our party is not just a minority Pete Wishart: The hon. Gentleman shakes his head; party, but the party of government in Scotland. Our he may want to intervene. Sixteen is always the number party is in a minority Government in Scotland, and at which there is at least a chance that we will be the party of my hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor included. That is why I seek in my amendment to Meirionnydd is in a coalition Government in Wales. increase the number to 16. Why do the Government not want to hear those diverse It is good to get more Members involved. What is voices in all the workings of this House? wrong with that? Why restrict the number to eight? I I will tell the House how bad things were. It was not know that the Committee might get more business done just that we did not have a place on the Scottish Affairs that way, but the term “Backbench business committee” Committee and the Welsh Affairs Committee; when we suggests that it should be full of Back Benchers. There turned up at the House for our customary little chit-chat should be lots of them involved, from Labour, the with the usual channels, we were told that there were no Liberals, the Conservatives, the DUP and the SNP. places for us on any Select Committees, because that is What is wrong with having a reasonable-sized Back-Bench what the Wright proposals suggested. Before the hon. business committee? Restricting membership to eight Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) gets on his just does not make sense and I cannot see the reason for high horse, let me say that that was how the usual it. Surely there are loads of Back Benchers who want to channels interpreted the Wright proposals—no places be part of what could be a very exciting and promising for us on Select Committees, and effective exclusion Committee. from scrutiny of Government Departments. That is what was offered to us. Mark Lazarowicz: The hon. Gentleman is making a strong case, but does he not accept that a smaller Mr Cash: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Committee is important to allow business to be conducted efficaciously? As he knows, although there were a large Pete Wishart: I will, because the hon. Gentleman number of Green and Scottish Socialist party Members made such a good intervention last time. in the previous Scottish Parliament, they were not members of the Business Committee by right. It is difficult to Mr Cash: Sometimes, it is from minorities that major strike a balance, but I accept that the hon. Gentleman parties develop. That has to do with what is called has some powerful arguments. freedom of speech. When people hear the minority view, they have the opportunity to get that view across Pete Wishart: I am not so sure about the hon. to the public. To be excluded is a complete derogation Gentleman’s contribution. There is a good case to be from freedom of speech. made for the business committee to be larger and more open, to ensure that we hear a different chorus of voices Pete Wishart: I am pleased that I gave way again to on the Back-Bench agenda. I see nothing wrong with a the hon. Gentleman, because he is spot on. That is what bigger committee, and I hope the House supports us the issue is about. I hope that the House hears tonight this evening. that we have a meaningful contribution to make. My We went along with Wright—as I said, my hon. modest little amendment (e) is an attempt to address the Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd served on issue. It aims to make sure that the minority voice is the Committee—but we believed it was a good thing to heard, as the hon. Gentleman says. It is about saying, do. As the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire “Let’s see what we can do to get the smaller parties of (Natascha Engel) mentioned in her speech, it seemed to the House involved and on board.” be starting from the right premise, taking on the powers As I have said, there is no way that we would ever be of the Whips, making the House more accountable, and considered for a place on the Back-Bench business making sure that there is a proper Back-Bench voice in committee; that is just not going to happen, and I hope the House. We accepted that that was an agenda that that that will be conceded. We do not yet know how its needed to be addressed and we went along with it in the members will be determined. I know that it will be hope that we would get some sort of change. 811 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 812

We even accepted in good faith the assurances given People often imagine that we do next to nothing in by Wright Committee members. I remember intervening, the Chamber. That is partly because of the failure of as did several of my hon. Friends, on Tony Wright when parliamentary reporting of what goes on in the House. these matters were being debated, and he would say, For those who do not have the parliamentary channel, “Don’t worry, it will be okay. Don’t worry about the for example, and who are reliant on the few minutes fact that it is not specifically mentioned that you will get that are given to “Today in Parliament”, it is difficult to a place on Select Committees. It will be all right.” It was have any concept of what goes on here. That is partly not all right. It has been a disaster. We were given no due to the fact that Back Benchers have been largely places at all on Select Committees initially. We have no excluded from the briefing processes now available to place on the Back-Bench business committee as it is the media and the machinery that is available to enable currently to be constituted. That must be addressed. Members to be heard by the public outside. We accepted those assurances in good faith, and I ask I say that with feeling as one who, if not a serial rebel, those who are the fervent champions of the reforms to has consistently held strong views, if I may say so—for get out there and make sure that the issue is addressed. example, on a debate that took place in Westminster They should approach it with the same enthusiasm as Hall this morning on the sovereignty of the United those on the Government Front Bench seem to be Kingdom Parliament and the European Union. I would approaching it, and make sure that it is resolved. We be extremely surprised if that makes the “Today” must fix it. It is not good enough that we are excluded. programme, “Yesterday in Parliament” or “Today in We have to find a mechanism to ensure that minority Parliament”. parties will have a place on the Back-Bench business The way in which the House is perceived is profoundly committee. It is important that the committee is seen to affected by the sucking away of the deliberations of the be legitimate, and that it is representative of the House House from the Chamber at a time when the whole of as a whole. As the hon. Lady said, there is no point Europe is imploding, the German Government is in a substituting one Westminster elite for another. state of implosion, the Greeks are in a state of implosion, As the committee is currently to be constituted, it will unemployment is rampant and the impact of immigration not be representative. The only way that we can change is flowing all over the continent. It is astonishing that, that and make the committee truly representative, to as heard from the outside, matters of such importance give everybody an opportunity to serve on it, the only cannot get the coverage in Parliament that they deserve. way that we will get minority party members on it, is to We heard yet again from my right hon. Friend the increase the size. I hope the House supports us this Leader of the House that the Wright Committee proposals evening in increasing the committee’s size. I cannot see will be accepted in full. If I have slightly misunderstood, any other solution to ensure that we have a place. If any I am happy to be corrected, but I see that paragraph 177 Member has any other suggestions, I may consider not states: pressing my amendment to a Division, but as far as I “On some business there needs to be an explicit partnership can see, I have no alternative but to ask the House to between Ministerial and backbench scheduling: this includes the determine the matter on a vote this evening. We need length of debates on the Budget and Queen’s Speech, the timing those numbers to ensure that we have a Back-Bench of Estimates Days and the handling of secondary legislation and business committee that is representative of the whole European documents on the floor.” House. One of the things that I noted was excluded from the province of the Back-Bench committee is European 7.42 pm documents. If the Wright Committee proposals are to be accepted in full, I cannot see why European documents Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): Congratulations, should be excluded. Madam Deputy Speaker, on your election to that important I say that for good reason. I have been on the European post. Scrutiny Committee for 26 years. I doubt whether many I begin with the constitutional background to the other Members have served on a Select Committee for role of Members of Parliament in general and Ministers anything like that length of time. As I said in the debate in particular. I have said on several occasions over the this morning in Westminster Hall, not once, at any time past few years that one of the reasons why the importance in those 26 years, has any vote ever been passed on the of the House in the public mind has been so reduced is Floor of the House or in a European Committee to Members’ lack of involvement and attendance in the overturn a decision in the Council of Ministers, bar one Chamber, which has not been the case during this that I can recall, and that was immediately overturned debate or since the new Parliament commenced. The on the Floor of the House. In other words, the very fact use of procedural devices such as the guillotine, and the that we are committed to the European Communities manner in which the previous Government handled Act 1972 has meant that we are not allowed to pass any Government business over the past 10 years, have been legislation inconsistent with it. So I am puzzled as to a disgrace. Indifference on the part of Members of why that partnership arrangement, which was described Parliament has increased to an extent that I did not in paragraph 177, has not been included, as far I can think was possible when I entered the House 26 years judge, in the proposals before us. ago. However, on the extent of the committee’s terms, I However—I say this as one who has a certain scepticism again have considerable sympathy with those who have about coalitions—I congratulate the Leader of the House tabled amendments to the proposals to restrict the and the Deputy Leader on the speed with which they period for which the chairman and committee members tabled the motion. I say that with feeling, because if can be elected. Indeed, that is why I have put my name used properly, it has the capacity to improve greatly the to a variety of them. Despite the responses of the involvement of the House and the quality of debates. Deputy Leader of the House and the Leader of the 813 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 814

[Mr William Cash] the machinations of the Whips’ magical powers would not get to work if somebody stepped into the arena and House to interventions, I cannot understand the real started to make use of the Back-Bench business committee. reason behind restricting the chairman and members to However, I really do pay tribute to the Leader of the election merely for one year—until, perhaps, we consider House, the Deputy Leader of the House and, indeed, the review of the committee’s operational arrangements. the coalition Government, because they have stepped Despite the sophistry that I heard from the Deputy into the arena and, with those proposals, allowed Parliament Leader of the House and, indeed, the Leader of the to become an arena where risk is part of Government House regarding the length of time, I am still extremely business. That is a tremendous step in the right direction, unhappy about the idea that the chairmanship, the but it will be fulfilled only if the ingredients are allowed membership and the length of time for which the committee to develop and evolve. The termination point on the is to be given a full opportunity to be seen to operate committee’s chairmanship, membership and operation should be temporary arrangements. The operational puts square brackets around it, as if the Government restriction to one Session is a very suspicious business. are saying, “We think it’s a good idea and we do want to I know my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House give power back to Parliament, but we don’t want to quite well; I have watched him over many years and I give them too much, because we want to put them on would not normally regard him with suspicion. He is notice, and when we put them on notice the Whips get very shrewd and intelligent, and he tells me that he can to work.” justify a review after one year, but I am not impressed I say that with respect, because I see my hon. Friend by the answers that we have received so far. The measure the Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright) just does not stand up, and I know that many other and Whip sitting on the Front Bench. We get on well hon. Members feel the same way. It has—to use another together and have got on in the past at a personal level. expression—a bit of a pong about it. The issue is nothing to do with personalities; it is to do Some people might use the Back-Bench business with the operation of the Whips Office, which is driven committee to advance causes, and that, after all, is what by what the Prime Minister and No. 10 want, and by Back Benchers are supposed to do. Members do not senior Ministers and Secretaries of State. That involves just react to Government business; they might want to the interplay of personalities and principles, and questions promote ideas. I do not agree with all the arguments of compromise and how business is to be put through. that the minority parties have presented on, for example, Do people who really believe in something, even within aspects of devolution, and there are many arguments their own party, have the opportunity to express their on the Barnett formula and all sorts of things where we views and to carry them through? That is why European might have serious differences, but they and Back Benchers business is constantly before the House, but on the basis generally have a right to be heard. of “take note”, rather than a vote. In other words, one is As I have said on previous occasions, what we need allowed to discuss such business and one is tolerated more than anything else in this House is Back Benchers but, even having been right over an extended period—for with backbone. During my 26 years in the House, I have which one must not of course try to make any claims—one been involved in quite a few controversies and I have is not allowed to vote on it or to obtain other people’s seen some serious ones develop. Ultimately some Members support, because that is beyond the pale. have seen them through and some have not. I hope that the Back-Bench business committee will not just represent Natascha Engel: Before the hon. Gentleman is diverted a vague opportunity for people to have their say but too far down the European track, may I bring him back that they will actually do something, and that the to his point about the Back-Bench business committee committee will therefore be used effectively in relation and the influence of the Whips? Does he not fear, as I to causes as well as Government business. do sometimes, that the committee could itself become a powerful elite of senior Back Benchers? How can we Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): I would never best guard against that? suggest that the hon. Gentleman lacked backbone, and I doubt whether any Member would. Some might accuse Mr Cash: We cannot guard against it at all. The him of being a little rigid, but lacking backbone—never. Government have all the powers that they need, and I agree very strongly that if someone were elected for Parliament is sovereign and omnipotent—we are told one Session only, they might be put under pressure by so. Ministers are appointed by the Crown, and they all manner of people, and that would deny the committee have the patronage, the salaries, the prestige and the an independently minded chairman who would fight for opportunities to direct business and make policy. They the rights of Back Benchers. The hon. Gentleman makes are chosen—they are appointed. They are certainly a very important point. elected to the House, and that is where they get their true reason for existence, because they are elected by the Mr Cash: By way of tribute to the hon. Gentleman, I people. As I have said so many times, it is not our note how strongly he feels about matters relating to Parliament, it is the Parliament of the people, so a Africa, for example, as I do. We have shared many Minister is no more important in the sense of election, arguments and discussions on that subject. The question and that is one of the great virtues of our parliamentary is whether, in that sphere or any other, a person’s cause system. It is not like the American system, in which might be affected via a behind-the-curtain attempt by there is an elected President and the separation of powers. the Whips to undermine them and thereby get them Members of Parliament and members of the away. I remember the late Gwyneth Dunwoody, who Government who are Members of Parliament are in this was removed from the Transport Committee, and House; there is no distinction between them in respect Sir Nicholas Winterton, who was removed from the of their position as Members of Parliament. If Back Health Committee. Let us not for a minute imagine that Benchers are part of the aggregate of those who are 815 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 816 elected, they must be given the opportunity to participate because of the need for a coalition. Furthermore, we in the making of policy—that is why I mentioned the are seeing a number of very significant and serious word “causes”—and in taking decisions relevant to changes in Parliament. The election of our Deputy Back Benchers’ business. That is why I applaud these Speakers has been one. proposals so much. Last week, for the first time ever, there was an election I understand why ministerial business is excluded in by secret ballot of all the Chairs of Select Committees. this context, because such business is the job of the This week, individual parties will be selecting the Members Government. We are often told that this Parliament is whom they wish to put on to those Select Committees. one of parliamentary government. I do not like that In 1832 and subsequently, our forebears kicked off with phrase; our Parliament is a Parliament made up of the liberating effect of the ballot box. The ability of people who are elected, some of whom are appointed Members to make decisions as their consciences see fit by the Crown and some of whom are given the opportunity, is having remarkable impacts on the House of Commons. through the leaderships of their respective parties and I hope that this burst of activity will not be confined the Whip system, to have the right to promote their to the first week or so; I hope that we sustain it. In ideas and policies and turn them into legislation. particular, I hope that the new Members take it for I simply say to the hon. Member for North East granted that the House is their base. I do not mean that Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) that it is wrong to imagine they should think that we have done well in the first that too much power can be vested in Back Benchers. week and that we can relax—instead, they should say, Back Benchers are no more or less important than “No, we’ve got to go further.” Whichever party they Ministers in terms of their parliamentary engagement come from, I hope that they will seize this opportunity and involvement. Ministers are, of course, important, to move things forward. The past week or so has been because they have the right to make decisions on behalf exciting for Members, and I use the word advisedly. of the Crown. However, their importance does not extend beyond that in parliamentary terms. Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend on his recent election to the chairmanship My feeling about all the proposals is that they are a of his important Select Committee. Does he agree that thoroughly good step in the right direction. Given the the momentum for change, of which we are clearly a sense of uncertainty resulting from their being confined part this evening, must be maintained and that an to merely one Session, I hope that their tentative nature important part of maintaining it is the setting of a clear will not be sustained. I shall be voting for the amendments timetable, to go on from what we are doing this evening in the name of the hon. Member for Nottingham North towards the establishment of a House business committee? (Mr Allen), whom I greatly respect. I am delighted that That would ensure not only that the Government had he is now Chair of the Constitutional Reform and the opportunity to get their business on to the statute Political Committee—or is it the Political and Constitutional book, but that we as a House had an opportunity Reform Committee? Whichever way round the name is, properly to scrutinise it as it went through our processes. I am absolutely certain that he will do a very good job. Other than that, I am delighted that the Leader of the Mr Allen: Left to their own devices, Governments House and Deputy Leader of the House have agreed and Front Benchers never become more radical. They not to press the last of the proposed motions. start with ideas and radicalism, and it is the role of Finally, I turn to Westminster Hall. I have heard from Back Benchers not only to hold them to account but to the Leader of the House about the number of days stimulate them into maintaining their reforming and allocated to the Floor of the House as compared with radical instincts. I do not want this to develop into too Westminster Hall; it is a mathematical thing, I suppose. much of a love-in, but if we—certainly those on the If only seven days are to be involved, perhaps the issue Opposition Benches—had been able to select a Leader will not matter quite as much. However, I am concerned of the House from the Conservative party, it would about one aspect. There are no votes in Westminster have been the current Leader of the House. Similarly, Hall, but there are on the Floor of the House. I leave the had we been able to select someone from the Liberal House with this thought. I would not want days on Democrats to be the Deputy Leader of the House, it which there should be votes on big issues to end up, by would have been the current incumbent. some means that I cannot envisage at the moment, We have a conjunction of remarkable, coincidental being Westminster Hall days on which there is no vote. fortune that means that we can take the issue on now—and Westminster Hall is a good innovation, but some matters we should. Now is not the time to be timid. We have free need votes on the Floor of the House and we do not votes on the motions from 9.30 onwards. I hope that want Westminster Hall to be used as some kind of cul Members—above all, new Members—will seize that de sac into which matters arising from Back-Bench opportunity. Obviously, I want them to vote with me in business could be driven when a vote would be inconvenient. my Lobby tonight, but if they do not, they must please vote according to what they feel is important rather 8.4 pm than because they are trying to figure out the main Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): I chance of getting on to the slippery slope and getting congratulate you, Madam Deputy Speaker, on being that red box one day. They will be respected more if the first woman elected to the senior position of the they use this unique opportunity to take our Parliament deputy speakership. It is symptomatic of what is a really further than if they merely look around to see which exciting time. I envy the new Members, whether they are Whip—unofficially, of course—is twitching in the leftwards from Beckenham, Sherwood or Brighton, Pavilion. They or rightwards direction. are entering the House of Commons at a fantastically There is a fundamental balance—imbalance, perhaps— exciting time. There has, of course, been a change of between Parliament and the Executive. It has been Government and there is a sense of new politics, if only evident throughout my political life, but newcomers 817 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 818

[Mr Allen] have here. Sometimes, one can find genuine debate and exchange, which has been so rare here. However, we can particularly may be able to taste a rebalancing through recapture it if we work at it. which, for once, the parliamentary midget is growing The Back-Bench business committee will help us and taking on the 800-pound gorilla of the Executive. I create such a Parliament here. It will help us revert to hope that the midget has been working out over the past being the people’s forum. Rather than the debates in couple of weeks and building muscles, although it should which we are all interested happening on the “Today” not challenge or frighten the Executive. Governments programme or “Newsnight”, those interactions and key should welcome a strong Parliament. A strong Parliament conversations could take place here. When I woke up is not a threat; it helps to produce better law and better the other morning, I listened to “Today”, which was value for money. It makes life better for our citizens. It considering three main issues: a possible increase in complements and is a partner to Government, occasionally student fees; a report about a possible 3 million unemployed, drawing attention to their defects. Are not we stronger and a report about abused children and whether there is when our defects are remedied? Perhaps I am too optimistic, a way in which to sort out the problem much earlier in but in my political lifetime, the moment has come when their lives. Those are three genuinely important issues, there is a sense that we can push on and have a Parliament which we all want to discuss. I came to the House of worthy of the name. Commons and the whole day went by without a single Although the subject of business is the Back-Bench one of those items, which had been headline news that business committee, the occasion is far more important morning, being debated or discussed. It should be the than the particular internal committee that we will set other way round. If we recreate our Parliament, we will up. It is important because, in the past two or three raise the issues and the media will follow behind us. We years, not one Member who is not new has not felt should all aspire to that sort of House of Commons. pressure and shame about the way in which we have The Back-Bench business committee is a small flame been portrayed—occasionally deservedly so. Now we that can move outwards and ensure that we do that job have a chance to show that Members of Parliament are particularly well. not as they are described day after day in The Daily Like so many hon. Members, I must say that the Telegraph or the Daily Mail, but that they bring genuine Government have done a remarkable thing in introducing value to our political life, that they are an asset to our the proposals today. Within weeks of a general election, politics and can make a real contribution through Select they have moved on the subject. I must be blunt—I do Committees, on the Floor of the House, through not wish to offend any Labour colleagues, but we dragged questioning or in Westminster Hall. We need to have our feet. The Wright Committee made every possible the passion returned to our Chamber so that we can do effort to conclude the matter. We tried to engage with such work. If we can do that openly and honestly, we the most senior people in our party to show that we will win people over. They will say that we are once cared about that and if only for purely political and again worthy of being the British people’s forum—not a electoral reasons, demonstrate that we cared about the nice little ancient backdrop to Government statements future of our political system. The new coalition or simply leather Benches and ornate wood work, but Government deserve credit for, and should be congratulated fundamental to what people want to discuss in our on, tabling the proposals. That needs to be put on democracy. record. Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I Some 95% of the proposals are what the Wright congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his election as the Committee suggested, but there is a bit of slippage with Chair of the Political and Constitutional Reform some. That has happened because, when one gets into Committee. Hearing him speak makes me think that he government, certain practicalities get in the way. There is well chosen. He is giving voice to incredibly welcome is a desire to ensure that other priorities are fulfilled, as ideas. As he says, it is an exciting time to be elected to well as the dead-weight, often of senior civil service this Parliament—there is a wind of change, and a real bureaucracy, and sometimes of our colleagues in the step forward in, for example, the election of Chairs and various Whips Offices, who feel that things must stay members of Select Committees. I welcome the amendments exactly as they are because that is how they control that would increase the House’s transparency and things. It reflects the old joke, “How many MPs does it democracy—that is incredibly important—but hope that take to change a light bulb?” “Change? Change?!” we can go further. I take comfort from his comments Sometimes we get a sense from our colleagues of better that we are the beginning, not the end of a process. I safe than sorry. If there is a little risk-taking in the would like us to learn from other legislatures, too. That Chamber, I hope that Labour Members will make allowance might be a radical suggestion, but there are many for it and grant it leeway, particularly if people fall flat legislatures that do an interesting job from which we on their face when it happens. We need to advance our could learn. I therefore warmly commend that the hon. system so that our democracy can prosper. Gentleman consider other things, too. In the past week or so, we have witnessed the beginning of a sensible conversation. In trying to create a Back-Bench Mr Allen: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention business committee, the interaction between all the and welcome her to the House. I am sure that she will different people who are involved—certainly the minority contribute not only to environmental politics but to a parties, which have been sorely tested by the failure of broader sphere, particularly in the ideas that she has the usual channels to give them a fair crack of the expressed about our democracy. We should have humility whip—has been important. Back Benchers have been and learn from not only other nations but from the involved, and Select Committee Chairs, within days of operation of the devolved Administrations in Northern being elected, have shown their muscle and their desire Ireland, Scotland and Wales, where—dare I say it?—one to protect the rights of the House. Front Benchers have can sometimes find a more real Parliament than we also played a positive role—I include my new Front-Bench 819 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 820 colleague as well as other Front Benchers in that. I hope There is a group of amendments on the Order Paper that, rather than proposals having to be withdrawn on that addresses a questionable aspect of the Government’s the Floor of the House—for which I am grateful; I will proposals; namely, the one-year termination. The deal with that later—the dialogue can take place a little Government proposal is that members of the Back-Bench more formally and a little earlier in future. If we can make business committee will be members for only one year, progress with the conversation, perhaps we can address which is unlike tenures for other parliamentary offices such matters by consensus rather than by withdrawing and institutions, which last five years. Chairs and members stuff on the Floor of the House. It is a difficult task, of Select Committees—there can barely be a Member especially so for two new incumbents, but I wish them in the Chamber tonight who is not standing for membership well in trying to get the conversation under way. of a Select Committee—will be in office for five years if Let me deal with the amendments. Many are in my they are successful, which gives a sense of continuity, name and the names of 32 other Back-Bench colleagues. and members and Chairs have the ability to learn a It could have been 232, and I claim no credit for the subject, and to grow as a Committee with their colleagues. amendments, but my name appears first, so I am happy Let us imagine if we were on Select Committees for to speak about them. But first, I should like to give a only one year. We would already be counting down the little more perspective on what can be very dry, dusty time, thinking, “There might be something else on the stuff—the Back-Bench business committee, what is a way. I might want to swap over. Somebody doesn’t like quorum and how we elect the Chair—and say what the me and I don’t get on with so-and-so, and the chair is a proposed committee is really about. The committee is bit of a pain.” The Chair, of course, would be saying, about taking the chunk of business that all of us accept “I’ve only got a year, but I really want to do something is the province, property and interest of Back-Benchers, long term with this Select Committee, so let’s pick up pulling it together and taking a Back-Bench view on whatever is in the papers.” how best to use it. Rather than the Leader of the House There is a more insidious problem. If Members are deciding that we should have a general debate next week really good as Back Benchers, they might just cross on something or other, there would be a process by Front Benchers—the wrong people. They might be so which all of us, collectively, could decide what that good—they might expose something, or scrutinise and debate should be about. We could decide that tomorrow’s call their those on their Front Bench to account—that debate will be about something that happened overnight instead of being lauded and given plaudits, they go on a or a Government announcement on widows’ pensions. list. I have been in the Whips office, and I have had my The debate could be on the terrible murders in the lists. The vow of silence forbids me from going further north-west, how we respond to the BP crisis or whatever, on that, but I can tell the House that we were not lining but it should be on a cause that we feel, collectively, up to give accolades to the Gwyneth Dunwoodys—precisely should be debated, and that our constituents would like the opposite. Let us imagine the whispering campaigns us to debate. They might even want to turn the television that would take place if Select Committee members or on to see us talking about that subject live, rather than Chairs had a one-year tenure, and the undermining that see a digest later with John Humphrys, Jeremy Paxman could go on. People would say, “You can get rid of that or somebody else. Chairman and have a go yourself,” or, “You’re not on a However, we need to be clear that when we talk about Select Committee. So-and-so is not very good. She or a Back-Bench business committee—the Wright Committee he always creates a problem, so why don’t you think made this absolutely plain—it is not a case of, “Tomorrow, about putting your name forward.” the world!” Some distinguished colleagues on that Committee, including my hon. Friend the Member for I know that colleagues on the Government Bench—the North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), who spoke Leader and Deputy Leader of the House—do not about this tonight, made it very clear that the Government intend that. However, much as I wish them longevity, have a right to discuss their business. It is part of the they might not be here this time next year, and some less House’s role to examine seriously legislation that the benign people might be. The latter might propose a Government introduce, but at the end of the day, providing review not to strengthen the Back-Bench business they have a majority, they should carry their business. committee, but to undermine it. If someone took that We are talking about that bit of business that is non- chance, we would all greatly regret it, because we have a legislative but which involves the keen interest of Members historic opportunity. This is the one and only time in of Parliament. my long political lifetime in this place that such an Too often, we see Members of Parliament rattling opportunity has come to pass. The right hon. and hon. through lists of things that they regard as important. If Gentlemen have been incredibly flexible today, so I ask I may say, Mr Deputy Speaker, you are one of the them, before the winding-up speeches, whether they greatest exponents of the early-day motion. With the wish to continue to oppose the amendments in my proposed committee, we are almost turning the early-day name and those of my colleagues by which we seek to motion into a motion that we can genuinely discuss at provide the same sort of lifespan and stability that we an early day. If there is so much interest in debating a expect as members or Chairs of Select Committees, so particular topic, it could be on the agenda the next day that this new bud can be protected should there be some or the day after that, even if we would need a further stormy weather a year out that we cannot predict now. mechanism for that. The Government need not fear Perhaps I am being too suspicious—it may be those that their agenda will be taken over, but Parliament years in the Whips Office and my brain is still a bit could for the first time say, “Our agenda, at least in frazzled. We could pass the matter over if there were part, is our possession,” and it will be able to decide, on just one proposal to undermine the committee—the a small number of days, what we will discuss. That is proposal to review the committee after one year. However, very important—it is one of the key things that the there is a second occasion when the committee might be committee will do. undermined, because its members must be elected after 821 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 822

[Mr Allen] Mr Allen: With good will—and the only reason we are here tonight is because there is good will, and the a year. There is even a third occasion, because the Chair Government have provided time on the Floor of the must be elected after a year. With those three proposals House tonight for this debate—we can overcome all we are, as Sherlock Holmes said, starting to develop a those problems and ensure that the Back-Bench business pattern. With great respect, I say to Government Front committee works. The prize of making the committee Benchers that there is still a moment when they might responsible and practical is not just topical and sensible ask themselves whether they want to perpetuate that debates in the House, but the next stage, which will pattern, or whether they could generously reconsider mean a fully fledged business committee. If new members the matter and either allow the amendments to be can help to achieve that, over the next two to three made, or decide not to promote their proposals. years, it will be an irreversible step in parliamentary There is another, rather demeaning aspect, which I history. was surprised to see included. When the Back-Bench I said that this process might be a little demeaning. business committee meets, it will have arguments. I When a subject for debate is chosen by the Government—as intervened, regretfully, on this point in the speech by my it always is at present—we do not say that someone hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire, must come and explain to us why it has been chosen. We who otherwise made some very good points. If the do not, although perhaps we should, get the Chief meetings are wholly in public, decision-making will be Whip to the Dispatch Box to explain— driven underground, because sometimes it is dirty and messy. It can be a compromise, with promises made, so Mr Heath: It happens on Thursdays. that something else is done in six months’ time when Mr Allen: Yes, but the Leader of the House explains people will not know that it is the result of a deal the business on a Thursday. He does not have to get up already done. I would like as much of that as possible to before every debate and give a little reason or excuse for take place openly in the business committee, but not its subject matter. I accept that I am finding fault in a necessarily in the full glare of publicity. If decision-making generally excellent set of proposals, but if I do not do so is totally open, people will behave differently, and we now, we could be stuck with the proposal that a member may end up with worse decisions. of the Back-Bench business committee must give an explanation before every topical debate, general debate Sir Peter Soulsby: Does my hon. Friend agree that and Adjournment debate. That is an onerous task. The this is a distinction with which we are already familiar Wright Committee expressed the view that every member in other Select Committees? Evidence is heard in public, of the Back-Bench business committee should play a but the deliberations take place in private, for the good part, so would the most junior member have to stand at reason that that enables us to work collaboratively and the Dispatch Box to give a little trailer of what is to informally, and we come to better conclusions as a come? Would they be cross-examined by Members about result. why the committee did not pick an important constituency issue or why it neglected another vital issue? How silly! Mr Allen: We are trying to move to a better place, but This is a piece of trivia that we should reject tonight. I we cannot do it all in one go. There is not only a hope that the Leader of the House, who has got so Back-Bench business committee now, but other business much right here, will not hang himself on a vote—whether committees—the usual channels, which get together in he wins or loses it—on getting Back-Bench business a cabal, and, semi-formally, the Committee of Selection. committee members to explain why a particular subject Let us not pretend that we do not already have a was chosen, other than at business questions, as he business committee. We do, and it is underground and does, where the committee chair would be available, as tolerates no dissent. Furthermore, it allows no Back-Bench the Church Commissioner and others are during different influence. We need to strike a balance—I know that my question times, to chip in and answer questions, make hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire sensible changes, and respond to requests. We would all was trying to do that. She was not laying out one like to see that. particular view—neither am I—but we need to try to ensure that the Back-Bench business committee works Natascha Engel: I really do not understand. How effectively. If it does not, we cannot get to stage 2, which then is the Back-Bench business committee accountable? is a fully fledged business committee, with Back Benchers, How is it open and transparent, and how will other Whips and others represented. Back-Bench Members know how it has gone about selecting the business for the day? Natascha Engel: I congratulate my hon. Friend on his Mr Allen: The Wright Committee went into this in election as Chairman of the Political and Constitutional detail. Essentially, we decided that the chair of the Reform Committee. In my speech, I was trying to say Back-Bench business committee would be seated in the that our starting point should be that the Back-Bench House during business questions. The Leader of the business committee should be open and transparent to House would give the normal business statement, and if avoid what he—of all the members of the Wright someone had a specific question about Back-Bench Committee—most disliked, which is the murkiness of business, the chair could answer it. the usual channels. If that is our starting point, we can examine the question of meeting in private or public, Natascha Engel: How is that different from the usual but we need to establish how Back Benchers will make channels? representations to the committee to have an influence on the business of the House. Those discussions should Mr Allen: It is very different from the usual channels, be held in public. The decisions that are then taken can who do not say anything—in fact, are banned from be taken in private. saying anything—on the Floor of the House. So this 823 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 824 would make it more open. However, to insist that that that the numbers are brought back to the Floor of the person appears three or four, five or even a dozen times House. [Interruption.] I know that the Leader of the a week to explain why one person’s topic, rather than House is listening, even though his colleague the Secretary those of 50 other people, was chosen would take it, in of State for International Development is talking to this case only, to a level of absurdity. That would fly in him—he is listening with one ear, which is his important the face of all the other very sensible provisions in the ear. He will understand that next week, when we bring Back-Bench business motions before us. the motions relating to Select Committees back to the Floor of the House, and particularly those relating to Sir Peter Soulsby: Would it not be even more absurd, Scottish and Welsh Committees, there should be minority because it would not be the same person every time? As representation as of right. Of course that might require I understand the proposals, it would be just a committee a small increase in the numbers to get through the member making a brief statement, with no debate, no current problems, but the other Select Committees should opportunity for questions and, frankly, no purpose. remain at no more than 11, so that they can be effective. The people who devised the system whereby Select Mr Allen: Indeed, but I do not want to labour the Committees are bumped up to get round particular point, because it is just one piece of silliness in what is difficulties are people who do not care what Select generally an excellent effort by Government Front-Bench Committees do. They do not mind if they are rambling, Members. So I shall not continue on that. if they do not produce coherent reports or if they have I pay tribute to the Leader of the House for deciding lots of members who do not show up. The job of those to provide in Standing Orders for 27 days’ debate on the people is just to set Select Committees up and get them Floor of the House. It is not easy to come to the House out of the way, so that they can get on with the other and say, “Someone else has got it right, and I will take business. That is no longer acceptable in a Parliament that on board.” That has always been the situation—in that elects its Select Committee Chairs and members by fact, he was quoted earlier saying it would always be the secret ballot. Until other people are elected by secret situation—but he, to his great credit, has taken that step ballot, those people have absolutely no right whatever forward and said that he will put it in the Standing to destroy the work of one of our key arms of Orders. I am sure that I speak for everyone who signed accountability, the Select Committees in this House. amendment (a) to motion 4 when I say that I am I congratulate those on the Government Front Bench extremely grateful to him for doing that. on withdrawing those proposals to change Select Committee That is not all. On Select Committee membership, memberships without one word of consultation with the response of the Leader and deputy Leader of the the Chairs of the Treasury Committee, the Justice House to the newly elected Select Committee Chairs Committee or the Defence Committee. That shows a was excellent politics. I am sure that other colleagues contempt and arrogance on the part of certain people will talk about this. Had they been involved a little who are not in the Chamber towards the conduct of the earlier and been able to delve, holding their noses, into House, and I for one hope that we will never see that the usual channels, they could have helped much earlier. again. In putting on record what I hope is an important Instead, we have today’s late decision to pull motion 13, caveat about the role and rights of minorities in this which would have driven a coach and horses through House—rights that must always be defended, which is the idea that Select Committees should be nimble and something that you said in one of your hustings speeches have, as standard, 11 members. As the Wright Committee you were determined to do, Mr Deputy Speaker, and and the Liaison Committee said, there is an optimum something that I know you will stick to—let me say that number of members on a Select Committee. Having it is important that we should continue to ensure that served on many Select Committees, Mr Deputy Speaker, balance. you will know that they start to ramble on, and get Finally, I would like to add my thanks to those who frayed at the edges, cliquey and difficult to manage have gone before us—we are, as the saying goes, standing when they get to 13, 14, 15 or 16 members. That is why on the shoulders of previous generations. First and the Liaison Committee and the Wright Committee said, foremost is Tony Wright, but there were also many “Nine is optimum, 11 is maximum,” in order to try to other members of the Wright Committee, such as our put right what was, frankly, a cock-up by the usual colleagues Chris Mullin—we can refer to them by name, channels, which resulted in Committees being bumped as they are no longer Members—David Howarth, David up to 16, thereby destroying their credibility and coherence. Drew and Nick Palmer. I am sure that other colleagues That is why there was such resistance from the Select can think of those who also worked incredibly hard—Phyllis Committee Chairs and why almost every newly elected Starkey is another—over a short period to produce the Select Committee Chair signed the amendments requesting Wright report. They were aided by people such as Meg that the proposal not go ahead. It is to the great credit Russell from the constitution unit and many others. We of the Leader and Deputy Leader of the House that took evidence from the Chief Whips and from academic they listened to those representations, so that we now and media experts to produce the Wright report. However, have a much better situation than we did earlier. Motion 13, there are many others who worked incredibly hard. which is about membership, will therefore not proceed. Robin Cook has been mentioned, but there are lots of I hope very much that over the next week or so, the other colleagues, from all parts of the House, Front-Bench difficulty that we were all trying to address—the and Back, who would have given their right arms to be representation of minority parties on Select Committees— here today. will be addressed sensibly. I hope too that minority I finish where I started. These past couple of weeks parties will have representation on the territorial have been some of the most exciting weeks in our recent Committees—the Scottish and Welsh Committees—as parliamentary history. Incredible changes have been they should do and as they are entitled to expect, and made: changes to elect Select Committee Chairs and 825 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 826

[Mr Allen] know that what matters on private Members’ Bill Fridays is not the quality of the measure, or even the number of members; changes to elect, for the first time ever, those Members present to support the Bill, but whether the who serve in your Chair, Mr Deputy Speaker, with the proposer and those on the Government and Opposition first woman ever to be elected to that position. This is a Front Benches can find their way round the arcane moment when real change is possible—we have a new procedures that are used on such Fridays—procedures Government and, for the first time in our present political that my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda described system, a coalition—but it is a moment that will not last as “shenanigans”. I have had the experience of taking long. It is a moment that needs to be sustained by our three private Members’ Bills through the House over new Members, and a moment that we need to continue the past six years, so I certainly know how the system tonight by supporting the amendments tabled by myself works. I know some of the ways of getting round it, but and 32 Back-Bench colleagues. I hope that as many I also know that it is a very unsatisfactory procedure for colleagues as possible will join us in the Lobby to all concerned. maintain the momentum that the reform of our House Addressing the way in which private Members’ Bills of Commons needs if we are genuinely to win back the are taken through Parliament will require a number of trust of the British people. procedural changes, and I welcome the commitment from the new Chair of the Procedure Committee that 8.45 pm his Committee will look at that at an early stage. One way of allowing private Members’ Bills proper time for Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ debate would be to move them from Fridays to Wednesdays Co-op): I should like to take this opportunity to congratulate or to Tuesday evenings, which would give Members the you on your election to your new post, Mr Deputy opportunity to attend the debates in much greater numbers Speaker. than they are able to do on Fridays. I wish to speak in support of amendment (a) to I take issue with the hon. Member for Wellingborough—I motion 11, tabled by the hon. Member for Wellingborough otherwise agreed with much of what he said about (Mr Bone), on providing more days for the discussion private Members’ Bills—as it is not satisfactory to say of private Members’ Bills. There are all sorts of good that Members can decide whether or not to turn up on democratic reasons for doing that. I had intended to Fridays to consider those Bills. We all have to make expand on them a little tonight but, given the excellent, such a decision at the moment, but because of our comprehensive and wide-ranging speeches that we have constituency commitments, it difficult for us, with one already heard, I shall merely say that I endorse the hon. or two exceptions, regularly to attend on Fridays—and Gentleman’s comments, as well as those from the hon. the further away from London our constituencies are, Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), on why the less easy it is for us to do so. there should be more days for the discussion of private I would often like to participate in private Members’ Members’ Bills than the Government are currently Bills debates on Fridays, and they often relate to issues proposing. that are important to many of my constituents who I have not heard any good arguments against the understandably expect me to debate them. They are hon. Gentleman’s amendment. The Leader of the House likely to find out, however, not only that I and many of Commons put forward an argument that the hon. other Members are unlikely to be there, but that what Member for Wellingborough described as consisting of they thought was going to be debated on a particular “smoke and mirrors”. With respect, I am not sure that I day—and hoped had a chance to get through—is likely would even dignify it with that description. The Leader to be talked out because of the use of some parliamentary of the House’s argument seemed to be that it was procedure and never reach any further stages. Not important to have more days between private Members’ surprisingly, members of the public get angry at Members Bill sittings to allow things to go on outside the main of Parliament and at the political system that allows Chamber. I was not sure what was meant by that. I can that to happen. only assume that it was felt that that arrangement I believe that Fridays should be recognised and named would allow the Committee stages of private Members’ as a constituency day, on which Members can allocate Bills to take place between the different Fridays, and their time to their constituencies. It should be named as that that would be easier to achieve if there were more a constituency day so that those out there who want to time between the sittings allocated for private Members’ condemn any absence from Westminster as equivalent Bills. If that is the case, it reveals a misunderstanding of to some form of extended holiday can, if they wish, the way in which the private Members’ Bill system carry out a study to ensure that we are indeed in our operates. If three successive Fridays were allocated for constituencies as opposed to sunning ourselves on a private Members’ Bills, with a Second Reading one beach. Let us make it a regular commitment, with week, the Committee stage the next, and Third Reading Fridays acknowledged as a constituency day. I hope on the third Friday, the next private Member’s Bill in that the Back-Bench business committee will discuss line would simply be debated on the subsequent Friday. this proposal at an early stage of its considerations. It As the hon. Member for Wellingborough has suggested, could look into the constituency issues more widely, it is hard to see how allowing more days for private and demonstrate that MPs spending some of their time Members’Bills would jeopardise the Government’s position. in their constituencies is essential to our democracy. We It has been suggested that, if were to adopt a private cannot represent the views of our constituents in Parliament Members’ Bill system that worked more effectively, if we are not regularly in touch with them. fewer days could be allocated for the purpose of dealing That brings me to the issue of September sittings. On with them if a positive outcome could be achieved in the one hand, I support the proposal to come back in the time allowed. As my hon. Friend the Member for September, as I believe that Robin Cook’s initiative Rhondda (Chris Bryant) said earlier, however, we all when he was Leader of the House was totally justified. 827 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 828

It is hard—indeed, impossible—to justify to the public Having issued those plaudits—with great sincerity—I why we need this long 13 or 14-week gap in the summer, have to say that I think the Government’s initial ardour in which we are unable to hold the Government to seems to have cooled just a tad. A number of modifications account unless the House is brought back for a special have crept in, which, in my view, have undermined some Sitting. On the other, we have to recognise that we of the original commitment. It is because the combined cannot keep adding days and days, weeks and weeks to effect of those slippages has clearly been to weaken the the parliamentary Session without it having knock-on position of Back Benchers that, along with many of my effects somewhere else in the system. hon. Friends, I have tabled a number of amendments We have to recognise that Members need to be in designed to ensure that the Government’s initial their constituencies and we also need to recognise, commitment survives. bluntly, that Members have family commitments. I have The most important amendment relates to a question an interest here in that I have four children in either that has been raised a number of times, and because of primary or secondary schools in Scotland; my children its importance I make no apology for raising it again. It are likely to be on holiday from the end of June and will concerns the term of membership of the Chair. The be back at school in mid-August. I would like to have order proposes that members and the Chair should the same opportunity that colleagues in England have serve for only one year after election, but we strongly to be at home for a fair part of my children’s school reject that proposal on the ground that no other holidays, but I will not have that opportunity. Anything parliamentary Committee—including Select Committees that makes it harder for people to combine their role as —is being treated in that way. The elections to Select Members of Parliament with a normal family life is not Committees, which, admirably, are taking place at this exactly going to encourage this place to be open and time—for the Chairs, who have been chosen, and the more representative of the public in the way that we all members, who are about to be chosen—are for a full want. I hope that, in addition to considering the procedures Parliament of five years, and there seems to be no valid for private Members’ Bills, the Leader of the House will reason for diverging from that principle. look at ways to recognise our constituency commitments as an important aspect of all MPs’ work and reflect The Leader of the House was questioned about the them in the sitting days of the House. issue, and I noted what he said. He spoke of the I invite the Deputy Leader of the House to clarify in importance of accountability—of course we all agree his closing remarks the Government attitude towards with that—and of the need for new blood to refresh the an early proposal to move away from Friday sittings for Committee. Of course I understand that too, but it private Members’ Bills and replace them with Wednesday applies to Select Committees as well. I do not think that sittings. I certainly gained the impression that the Leader the Leader of the House took on board adequately the of the House and the Deputy Leader of the House were point made behind him about the question of independence. sympathetic to the idea of moving to Wednesdays for We believe that members, once elected, should be fully private Members’ Bills. There was quite strong support independent. We do not think that they should have for this across the House, so I hope that the Government continually to look over their shoulders, or feel liable to will be able to give that proposal at least a favourable the Whips or Front-Bench pressure in order to secure and general welcome today. I believe that such a proposal repeat elections year after year. would be welcomed not just by individual Members, Annual elections give too much power to the Whips but by all those who want to see private Members’ and the establishment, allowing them to exert influence business getting the status it deserves. on the Chair not because he or she is inadequate or incompetent, but precisely because he or she is too 8.54 pm effective. Let me suggest to the Leader of the House, in Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) all friendliness, that annual elections will profoundly (Lab): I think we have had a good and thoughtful undercut the impact of reforms that are excellent in so debate, although it had a rather rickety start. I agree many other ways. with my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), who, in an eloquent and comprehensive Another issue—I was not going to mention it until speech, spelt out how exciting and important this period my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North is in Parliament’s history; and, like others, I pay tribute (Mr Allen) did so and I think he was right—is that the to the Government for the promptness with which they Government are proposing that, before any business introduced Standing Orders to allow the establishment starts that has been decided on by the Back-Bench of a Back-Bench business Committee. There is no doubt business committee, a member of the committee must that that reflects the good will, commitment and make a brief statement of up to five minutes to explain supportiveness of the Leader of the House and his why the committee made that decision. Again—it hardly deputy, and I thank them for all that they did in needs repeating—no one else does that in any other part preparing the orders. of the House. No Minister is ever required to do that. If for any reason either the chair or any member of the The debate marks the culmination of a long struggle committee wishes, with permission, to make such a that stretches back many years to the formation of the statement, there is nothing to prevent them from doing cross-party Parliament First group, which has consistently so. However, to require that to happen in every case, and effectively campaigned for parliamentary democratic when in most circumstances Members will be well aware reform under the chairmanship of the former Member of the thinking behind the decision, seems unnecessary, of Parliament for Stoke-on-Trent, Central, my very a waste of time or even obstructive. good friend Mark Fisher. We will, of course, continue to owe a great and continuing debt of gratitude to the The Leader of the House will know perfectly well Wright Committee, chaired so admirably by my former that Members will want to get quickly on to the debate. hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase. They will not want to be diverted by what they will 829 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 830

[Mr Michael Meacher] necessary to get legislation right. One of the commitments we have made as a Government is not to present to the perceive as superfluous formality. I hope that he will House legislation that is not in a fit state to be considered consider whether that proposal should just be quietly by it, because we felt that that was one of the failings of dropped. the previous Government. Very often there were subsequent I recognise that, when the Leader of the House was amendments at later stages in a Bill’s progress simply questioned last Thursday, he went as far as he could, because the preparatory work was not done. I repeat leaning in our direction, by offering an allocation of again, however, that it is our intention to bring substantive 27 days. He has now gone further still by agreeing to business before the House in September, if the House accept our amendment. I thank him warmly for that. agrees to meet in September, which is subject to a However, always wanting to go a bit further, I think that decision this evening. 35 days would be even better, not least because it is only The right hon. Lady was intervened on by her party on the Floor of this House that the votes will take place. colleague the hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr Hamilton), The Leader of the House pointed out that the implication who made the valuable point that we need to get the of that, to which he is probably quite sympathetic, is entire parliamentary calendar right. In respect of this that the House might have to sit into August. However, evening’s motions, we are talking about what we will do I hope that he will reconsider and be prepared to in September this year, but I am perfectly well aware consult about various alternatives that could achieve that there are Members on both sides of the House who the objective of 35 days on the Floor of the House will want not only a degree of certainty about the future without encroaching into August. calendar of the House, but to express their views and One of those options is the use of more Fridays. In concerns about their family circumstances, such as Scottish previous years—indeed in previous decades—the House school holidays not coinciding with English school has sat on Fridays to a far greater degree than it does holidays. It is right for the House to consider that, and I today. I am well aware that, whatever one suggests, it hope we will be able to consult widely on what ought to will not please everyone, but I hope that the Leader of be the future shape of the parliamentary calendar and the House will genuinely consult to find a way forward bring back proposals that try as far as possible to that is acceptable and desirable to the majority. The accommodate the various different interests of Members important point is that 27 Back-Bench business committee of all parties. days in this House should be the bottom line, consolidated The right hon. Lady asked about the costs of bringing by the Standing Order and not dependent on discretion. the House back in September, and that point was strongly That is why I am grateful—I am sure that we all supported by the hon. Member for Sheffield South East are—that he has accepted the amendment. (Mr Betts). He has expertise in this area, and I am By and large, this is an excellent set of Standing grateful to him for his comments because he perfectly Orders, for which the Government are to be congratulated. sensibly set out possible difficulties with a September I hope that the Leader of the House will accept that the sitting. I remember the last time we tried September amendments that we have had to table are not in any sittings, and I do not think the arrangements behind the way designed to oppose what he is trying to do; they are scenes lived up to the expectations of the House. In fact, designed to improve that. I hope that he and other hon. I would go further and say that there was a suspicion Members will look upon them in that spirit. that in some cases the maintenance that took place was planned to cause the maximum disruption to Members 9.3 pm during that September sitting, rather than the minimum; The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of that was certainly the way it seemed. I accept, however, the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): We have had that this is a difficult and complex building, and that it an extremely good debate. We have teased out a lot of has to be maintained properly. We must take careful the issues that relate to the establishment of the Back-Bench note of the hon. Gentleman’s quite proper warnings business committee and to the various proposals that that if we are going to meet regularly in September, we we have put forward, which are in line with the Wright have to organise House maintenance and other works Committee proposals. There are some areas where the around that, and that we need proper forward planning House will wish to take a view. There are others where to achieve that and we need to do so on the basis of there is a clear preponderance of voices, at least in the proper advice. Those are perfectly sensible points. debate, in favour of what we have proposed. On the specific point about the maintenance contracts, I want to take a little time to deal with the issues that the right hon. Lady will recall that Mr Speaker wrote to have been raised because they will repay further all the parties following the decisions in February and consideration. I will deal first with the right hon. Member March indicating that the House may wish to sit in for Doncaster Central (Ms Winterton). I am grateful September and saying that the possibility of September for her general welcome for what we are doing. She sittings would be taken into account in the organisation asked some specific questions and she deserves specific of contracts. I hope that that will be the case and that answers. She asked whether there would be any impact any disruption to those contracts will be kept to a minimum. on Opposition days. The answer is categorically no. The On the costs of a September sitting, I should point Standing Orders that relate to Opposition days are not out that of course it costs the same for Members to sit to be changed, so there is no change to the present regardless of the time of year. The total number of days position. She asked me to confirm whether there will be that we are sitting is the relevant factor, not the dates on substantive business to address in September and pointed which we sit. out that we have recently had several general debates— which, in fact, I think the House has welcomed. I think Mr Betts: As the hon. Gentleman acknowledges, cost it is equally fair to say to her that we are in the is an important issue, particularly with regard to immediate aftermath of the Queen’s Speech and it is maintenance and forward planning. When he looks 831 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 832 further into this for future years, will he ensure that the Mr Bone: Given the comments that the Deputy Leader Officers are allowed to produce their advice independently of the House has just made and those made by Opposition and that it goes to the appropriate Committees, and Members, I accept that this is not about the number of also that all Members of the House have access to the Fridays, but about the quality of debate on private advice that is given about the costs and the advisability Members’ Bills and how we put them through this of postponing maintenance programmes and not carrying House. Given what the Deputy Leader of the House them out properly as Officers advise that they should be said, and given this happy frame of mind that we are in carried out? tonight, I shall not press my amendment to the vote. Mr Heath: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Mr Heath: I am delighted to have satisfied the hon. that intervention. I am not a member of the House of Gentleman in his quest; we are making progress. Commons Commission and I do not wish to tread on its toes, but what he says makes perfect sense to me and I am grateful to the hon. Member for North East I shall ensure that that is communicated to members of Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) for her comments. She the Commission. has made it perfectly clear throughout that she was a member of the Wright Committee who did not agree Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): Is with all its proposals. She has taken a proper position. the Deputy Leader of the House aware that radical and She had a minority view, she has expressed it and she far-reaching repairs need to take place in the basement has been consistent in her position. She amplified that a of this place, where high pressure steam calorifiers are little by raising specific issues in tonight’s debate, so I located right next door to very high voltage electrical shall deal with them. She asked whether members of cables? That is so much the case that I understand that the public will be excluded from the meetings of the in the previous Parliament the House of Commons Back-Bench business committee and indeed whether Commission even considered whether there would be a Members of Parliament who are not members of that need to move out of this building. Has he taken that committee will be allowed into the meetings to hear the into consideration in these proposals? deliberations. The rules that will apply will be the same as those for any Select Committee. I genuinely think Mr Heath: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that it is not for a Minister of the Crown to tell the that intervention. I can say only that the House of Back-Bench business committee how it should undertake Commons Commission is considering this. As I say, I its role. However, I hope that it will consider, carefully am not a member of that body, but I would not be and early on, how it will manage its business, and in putting forward this proposal today—I should remind what circumstances it will have open meetings and in hon. Members that it is one of the things that the what circumstances it will not, in the same way as Select Wright Committee asked us to put before the House— Committees across the House do. She has raised an if we felt that there were impossible hurdles to cross this important issue, and it is a matter that the Back-Bench year. However, this matter may be something that we business committee—if we constitute it—will need to need to consider in future years. consider. I wish now to deal with the points made by the hon. The hon. Lady asked about the party political make-up Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone)—they were of the committee and whether seats would be allocated also reflected in the comments made by the hon. Member in the same way as for normal Select Committees or the for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz)—about system would be entirely open. As she knows, a formula the important matter of private Members’ Bills. He reflecting the composition of the House is generally rightly drew attention to what I had said on a previous used, and it is intended that that formula will be used to occasion when he tabled a similar amendment. He determine the make-up of this committee. However, quoted me, so may I quote myself? That is always an there is an issue of how we accommodate the minority invidious thing to do but as he quoted me, I shall quote parties in the Select Committee process, and I shall myself. He said that I had said that “perhaps there come later to the points made by the hon. Member for should” be a change in Standing Orders. I stand by that Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart). comment—perhaps such a change should be made— because I want us to do a much better job of dealing The hon. Lady also asked whether a Chair of another with private Members’ Bills. Select Committee could stand for election as chair of We do not do a good job on these Bills at the moment the Back-Bench business committee or one of its members. and the process contains procedural hurdles that are Nothing in the proposed Standing Orders would preclude absurd, and are seen as such by our constituents. Far that, but she raises an important point. It would be too often, excellent measures that are introduced by extraordinarily bad practice if a Chair of another Select individual Members do not make it to the statute book, Committee stood for election to the Back-Bench committee despite substantial support in the House, simply because because their membership would inevitably raise the of the way the system works. I am therefore delighted suspicion that that Member’s Select Committee had that the Chair of the Procedure Committee, the right enhanced access to the business of the House. I would hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight), has hope that that would not happen, so I strenuously urge volunteered that his Committee will examine this as an those hon. Members who were lucky enough to be early matter of priority. It is essential that the Committee elected as Select Committee Chairs not to put themselves does so and I hope that it will make proposals. I also forward for the Back-Bench business committee. hope that the issue of how many Fridays are made My hon. Friend the Member for East Dunbartonshire available will become redundant because we will have so (Jo Swinson) made an excellent contribution to the improved the way we manage private Members’ legislation debate. She emphasised the frustration that we did not that Fridays are not the crucial factor in deciding whether get the committee up and running before the general we make progress. election. The previous Government failed to give us the 833 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 834

[Mr Heath] make sure that the minority parties are properly represented in the Select Committee system. I have to say to him opportunity to make the necessary changes to the Standing that enlarging the Committees beyond the size that Orders, so I am proud of the fact that, in the first week Wright recommended and that the Liaison Committee following the conclusion of the Queen’s Speech debate, wanted is probably not the way to do it. We have to find the House is determining the matter—that represents an alternative way of accommodating his request, but excellent progress. my door is certainly always open to him and his colleagues, My hon. Friend emphasised the need for a minimum so that we can discuss the matter further and make of 27 days’ Back-Bench business in the Chamber and, sure—with, I think, a degree of dispatch—that something as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House said, happens. we are happy to accept amendment (a) to motion 4 The hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) because that was always our intention. She also asked made the point that the Wright Committee suggested whether further progress could be made, including on having an added Speaker’s Member on Select Committees. the innovative use of time. I hope that we can find Unfortunately, the Committee did not make that a innovative ways of using time more effectively, and of recommendation; I wish that it had, because it would course we firmly intend to move to a House business have made our life a little easier when dealing with this committee within three years. That will mean that we difficult problem. have a totally different way of managing the House’s The hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) raised the business, which will be a good thing. issue of European business—no surprise there, perhaps— I think I have already dealt with my hon. Friend’s but it is specifically mentioned in the motions as point about private Members’ Bills. She also said that “government business”. Indeed, in the second report of the Wright Committee had further ideas that she would the Wright Committee, the draft Standing Order changes like to see progressed, such as some about public specify that that should be the case. Of course, when we engagement. I agree that the Committee made further have the House committee, we will be able to enter into excellent suggestions. We have not lost sight of them the sort of partnership arrangement suggested, and we and hope to come back to them in the future. will be able to make sure that those matters are dealt with properly. I have to say that I was a little put off by Jo Swinson: Given the assurances about private Members’ the hon. Gentleman accusing me of sophistry in my Bills that we have heard from my hon. Friend and from approach to annual elections; I had not said a word on the Chair of the Procedure Committee, I will not press the subject. I must have given him a sophistical look at amendment (b) to motion 4 to a Division. However, my some stage. I will deal with the issue of annual elections hon. Friend has not answered my question about whether in just a moment. Ministers will vote on the membership of the Back-Bench business committee, or whether they will follow the Mr Allen: I look forward to the hon. Gentleman’s self-denying ordinance that applies to elections for Select remarks on the committee’s annual nature, given that Committee Chairs. every other Committee runs for five years. We started off with the possibility of 10 Divisions tonight, but Mr Heath: My hon. Friend is right that I did not because of the generosity of Members in all parts of the respond to that question. I will take her points back to Chamber, and because of the strength of the replies my colleagues in government because there is clearly an from the Front-Bench team, we are now down to five argument that, as she says, it should not be for the Divisions, virtually all of which refer to the question: Government to elect those who serve on the Back-Bench why should the committee not have a life of more than committee. That issue is not specifically addressed in one year? Why is it on probation? If the hon. Gentleman the motions, but we ought to listen carefully to her can give us some satisfaction by saying that he will take point. the issue away and look at it seriously, and not press the I congratulate the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie) proposal tonight, we may all get home a lot quicker on his election as Chair of the Treasury Committee. He than we would if there were five Divisions. was absolutely right to say that we are lucky to have such an enlightened Leader of the House. He likened Mr Heath: I was about to say what a huge contribution the relationship between the Leader of the House and the hon. Gentleman had made to the debate not just the Chief Whip to that between Esau and Jacob, although this evening, but over the past few years in which he has I am not quite sure who is in possession of the mess of pressed the case for reform. That is appreciated. He, pottage. He is right to say that the Government’s attitude among others, has been making sure that we are true to is to bring forward proposals for modernisation and our word on many of these subjects. We have already then to take them forward. It is about not just paying lip agreed that we will accept his amendment (a) to motion 4 service to an idea, but actually making it happen, which on the issue of the 27 days. I will go further: having is what we are doing this evening. listened to what he and the right hon. Member for The hon. Gentleman talked about the representation Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) said, we are of minority parties, and of course that was the main prepared not to press forward this evening with the thrust of the argument of the hon. Member for Perth proposal for the introductory statement. We hear what and North Perthshire. Wright has something to say on they say, and we will accept the relevant amendment on the subject. The Wright Committee report says: that basis. “Members in individual cases can be added to specific committees As far as the one-year election is concerned, that is a to accommodate the legitimate demands of the smaller parties.” suggestion that puts the Back-Bench business committee I repeat to the hon. Member for Perth and North into the hands of Back-Bench Members, making it Perthshire that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the accountable to them. It may be that Members do not House and I are absolutely determined to find ways to want to have the committee in their hands; they may 835 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 836 wish to have a one-off election and not review the Brown, Lyn Lloyd, Tony matter, but it is right that the House has the decision. Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Llwyd, Mr Elfyn That is not a matter for the Government and Ministers; Brown, Mr Russell Love, Mr Andrew it is for the House to decide whether it believes that the Bryant, Chris Lucas, Caroline proposal is a useful introduction. I am happy for the Burden, Richard Lucas, Ian House to have its say on the matter. Byrne, rh Mr Liam Mann, John Campbell, Mr Alan McCarthy, Kerry To recap, we will not move motion 13. We will accept Cash, Mr William McDonagh, Siobhain amendment (a) on 27 days tabled by the hon. Member Clark, Katy McFadden, rh Mr Pat for Nottingham North and the amendments on the Clwyd, rh Ann McGovern, Alison introductory statement. Annual election is a matter for Connarty, Michael McKechin, Ann the House to decide. On private Members’ Bills, I hope Crausby, Mr David McKinnell, Catherine we will make rapid progress in improving the situation. Creasy, Stella Mearns, Ian We need to address the representation of minorities as a Cryer, John Miller, Andrew matter of urgency. September sittings are, again, a Cunningham, Alex Moon, Mrs Madeleine matter for the House. Cunningham, Mr Jim Morris, Grahame M. Cunningham, Tony We have not in any way resiled from the spirit of the Nash, Pamela David, Mr Wayne Onwurah, Chi Wright Committee recommendations, but we cannot Davies, Geraint treat them as holy writ because, as in so much of holy Percy, Andrew Dobbin, Jim Perkins, Toby writ, there are occasionally internal contradictions. There Docherty, Thomas Pound, Stephen are competing pressures. The House would not thank Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Reynolds, Emma us if we made sure that there were no end of general Doyle, Gemma Riordan, Mrs Linda debates on the Floor of the House, but we had no time, Dugher, Michael Ritchie, Ms Margaret for instance, for Report stage of important Bills. We Durkan, Mark Elliott, Julie Robertson, Angus have tried to be practical about it, and I hope we have Roy, Mr Frank succeeded in that intention. Engel, Natascha Evans, Chris Sarwar, Anas Mr Tom Clarke: I very much welcome the tone of the Gapes, Mike Shuker, Gavin Deputy Leader of the House and the progress that we George, Andrew Skinner, Mr Dennis have made tonight on private Members’ Bills, but given Gilmore, Sheila Spellar, rh Mr John that some of the impediments have come not from here Glass, Pat Stanley, rh Sir John Glindon, Mrs Mary Tami, Mark but from another place, can we assume that discussions Goggins, rh Paul Tomlinson, Justin are taking place? Green, Kate Twigg, Stephen Mr Heath: I am happy to give that assurance. We Griffith, Nia Watts, Mr Dave Hanson, rh Mr David need to look at the matter in the round. Weir, Mr Mike Harris, Mr Tom Whiteford, Dr Eilidh It has been a frustrating pathway to reform. Sometimes Hendrick, Mark Williamson, Chris there has seemed to be little movement, but we have an Hilling, Julie Winterton, rh Ms Rosie opportunity this evening, and I am particularly pleased Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Wishart, Pete Hood, Mr Jim that so many new Members will have the opportunity to Woodcock, John Hosie, Stewart participate in the decision. Usually, when we talk about Wright, David historic days in the House of Commons, the expression Irranca-Davies, Huw is overblown, but I genuinely believe that this evening is Jones, Helen Tellers for the Ayes: an opportunity to change the relationship between the Keeley, Barbara Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil Executive and the legislature. If right hon. and hon. Lavery, Ian and Leslie, Chris Jonathan Edwards Members believe in Parliament and in a strong legislature, if they believe that a strong Parliament leads to stronger government, they will support the proposals on the NOES table this evening. I commend them to the House. Adams, Nigel Betts, Mr Clive Aldous, Peter Bingham, Andrew Mr Speaker: I must now put the Questions necessary Alexander, rh Danny Binley, Mr Brian to dispose of proceedings on motions 2 to 15 and Andrew, Stuart Birtwistle, Gordon selected amendments which may then be moved. I will Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Blackwood, Nicola go through the motions in the order in which they stand Bagshawe, Ms Louise Blomfield, Paul on the Order Paper, dealing first with selected amendments Bailey, Mr Adrian Blunt, Mr Crispin to each such motion. Bain, Mr William Bone, Mr Peter Amendment proposed to motion 2: (e), in paragraph (2), Baker, Norman Bottomley, Peter leave out from “and” to end of line and insert Baker, Steve Bradley, Karen Baldry, Tony Brady, Mr Graham “fifteen other Members, of whom eight”.—(Pete Wishart.) Baldwin, Harriett Brake, Tom The House divided: Ayes 100, Noes 331. Barclay, Stephen Brazier, Mr Julian Division No. 6] [9.27 pm Barker, Gregory Bridgen, Andrew Baron, Mr John Brine, Mr Steve AYES Barwell, Gavin Brokenshire, James Bayley, Hugh Blackman-Woods, Roberta Bebb, Guto Brooke, Annette Beckett, rh Margaret Blenkinsop, Tom Begg, Miss Anne Browne, Mr Jeremy Benn, rh Hilary Blunkett, rh Mr David Beith, rh Sir Alan Bruce, Fiona Berger, Luciana Bray, Angie Beresford, Sir Paul Bruce, rh Malcolm Blackman, Bob Brennan, Kevin Berry, Jake Buckland, Mr Robert 837 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 838

Burley, Mr Aidan Greatrex, Tom Lopresti, Jack Roy, Lindsay Burns, Conor Green, Damian Lord, Jonathan Rudd, Amber Burns, Mr Simon Greening, Justine Loughton, Tim Russell, Bob Burrowes, Mr David Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Luff, Peter Rutley, David Burstow, Mr Paul Griffiths, Andrew Lumley, Karen Sanders, Mr Adrian Burt, Alistair Gummer, Ben Macleod, Mary Sandys, Laura Burt, Lorely Gyimah, Mr Sam Mactaggart, Fiona Scott, Mr Lee Byles, Dan Halfon, Robert Main, Mrs Anne Selous, Andrew Cable, rh Vince Hames, Duncan Maude, rh Mr Francis Shapps, rh Grant Cairns, Alun Hamilton, Mr David May, rh Mrs Theresa Sharma, Alok Carmichael, Mr Alistair Hammond, Stephen McCartney, Jason Shelbrooke, Alec Carmichael, Neil Hancock, Matthew McCartney, Karl Simmonds, Mark Chishti, Rehman Hands, Greg McIntosh, Miss Anne Simpson, Mr Keith Chope, Mr Christopher Harper, Mr Mark McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Skidmore, Chris Clark, rh Greg Harrington, Richard McPartland, Stephen Smith, rh Mr Andrew Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Harris, Rebecca McVey, Esther Smith, Henry Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hart, Simon Meacher, rh Mr Michael Smith, Julian Coffey, Dr Thérèse Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Menzies, Mark Smith, Sir Robert Collins, Damian Hayes, Mr John Mercer, Patrick Soubry, Anna Colvile, Oliver Heath, Mr David Metcalfe, Stephen Soulsby, Sir Peter Corbyn, Jeremy Heaton-Harris, Chris Miller, Maria Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Crockart, Mike Hemming, John Mills, Nigel Spencer, Mr Mark Crouch, Tracey Henderson, Gordon Milton, Anne Stephenson, Andrew Curran, Margaret Herbert, rh Nick Moore, rh Michael Stevenson, John Dakin, Nic Hinds, Damian Morgan, Nicky Stewart, Bob Davidson, Mr Ian Hoban, Mr Mark Morris, Anne Marie Stewart, Iain Davies, David T. C. Hollingbery, George Morris, David Stewart, Rory (Monmouth) Hollobone, Mr Philip Morris, James Stride, Mel Davies, Glyn Hopkins, Kris Mosley, Stephen Stuart, Ms Gisela Davis, rh Mr David Horwood, Martin Mowat, David Stuart, Mr Graham de Bois, Nick Howarth, Mr Gerald Mulholland, Greg Stunell, Andrew Dinenage, Caroline Howell, John Mundell, rh David Sturdy, Julian Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hughes, Simon Munn, Meg Swales, Ian Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Huhne, rh Chris Munt, Tessa Swayne, Mr Desmond Dorries, Nadine Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Murray, Ian Swinson, Jo Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunter, Mark Murray, Sheryll Swire, Mr Hugo Drax, Richard Huppert, Dr Julian Murrison, Dr Andrew Syms, Mr Robert Duddridge, James Hurd, Mr Nick Neill, Robert Thornberry, Emily Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Illsley, Mr Eric Newmark, Mr Brooks Thurso, John Dunne, Mr Philip Jackson, Mr Stewart Newton, Sarah Timpson, Mr Edward Ellis, Michael James, Margot Nokes, Caroline Truss, Elizabeth Ellison, Jane Javid, Sajid Norman, Jesse Turner, Mr Andrew Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jenkin, Mr Bernard Nuttall, Mr David Tyrie, Mr Andrew Elphicke, Charlie Johnson, Gareth Ollerenshaw, Eric Umunna, Mr Chuka Eustice, George Johnson, Joseph Opperman, Guy Uppal, Paul Evans, Jonathan Jones, Andrew Ottaway, Richard Vaizey, Mr Edward Jones, Mr David Paice, Mr James Vickers, Martin Evennett, Mr David Jones, Mr Marcus Parish, Neil Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Fabricant, Michael Kendall, Liz Patel, Priti Walker, Mr Charles Fallon, Michael Kirby, Simon Pawsey, Mark Walker, Mr Robin Farron, Tim Knight, rh Mr Greg Penning, Mike Walley, Joan Featherstone, Lynne Kwarteng, Kwasi Penrose, John Ward, Mr David Field, Mr Mark Laing, Mrs Eleanor Perry, Claire Watkinson, Angela Foster, Mr Don Lamb, Norman Phillips, Stephen Weatherley, Mike Francois, rh Mr Mark Lancaster, Mark Pickles, rh Mr Eric Webb, Steve Freeman, George Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pincher, Christopher Wharton, James Freer, Mike Latham, Pauline Poulter, Dr Daniel Wheeler, Heather Fuller, Richard Lazarowicz, Mark Prisk, Mr Mark White, Chris Garnier, Mr Edward Leadsom, Andrea Pugh, Dr John Whitehead, Dr Alan Garnier, Mark Lee, Jessica Randall, rh Mr John Whittaker, Craig Gauke, Mr David Lee, Dr Phillip Reckless, Mark Whittingdale, Mr John Gibb, Mr Nick Leech, Mr John Redwood, rh Mr John Wicks, rh Malcolm Gilbert, Stephen Lefroy, Jeremy Rees-Mogg, Jacob Wiggin, Bill Glen, John Leigh, Mr Edward Reevell, Simon Willetts, rh Mr David Goldsmith, Zac Leslie, Charlotte Reid, Mr Alan Williams, Mr Mark Goodman, Helen Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Reynolds, Jonathan Williams, Roger Goodwill, Mr Robert Lewis, Brandon Robathan, Mr Andrew Williams, Stephen Gove, rh Michael Lewis, Dr Julian Robertson, Hugh Williamson, Gavin Graham, Richard Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Robertson, Mr Laurence Wilson, Mr Rob Grant, Mrs Helen Lidington, Mr David Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Wollaston, Dr Sarah Gray, Mr James Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rogerson, Dan Wright, Jeremy Grayling, rh Chris Lloyd, Stephen Rosindell, Andrew Wright, Simon 839 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 840

Yeo, Mr Tim Tellers for the Noes: Parish, Neil Swinson, Jo Young, rh Sir George Mr Shailesh Vara and Percy, Andrew Syms, Mr Robert Zahawi, Nadhim Miss Chloe Smith Perkins, Toby Thornberry, Emily Pincher, Christopher Thurso, John Question accordingly negatived. Poulter, Dr Daniel Tomlinson, Justin Pugh, Dr John Truss, Elizabeth It being after 9.30 pm, the Speaker put the remaining Reckless, Mark Turner, Mr Andrew Questions (Order, this day), Redwood, rh Mr John Twigg, Stephen Amendment proposed to motion 2: (b), in paragraph 3, Rees-Mogg, Jacob Umunna, Mr Chuka leave out “Session and insert “Parliament”.—[Mr Allen.] Reevell, Simon Walker, Mr Charles Reynolds, Jonathan Walker, Mr Robin The House divided: Ayes 171, Noes 263. Riordan, Mrs Linda Walley, Joan Division No. 7] [9.42 pm Ritchie, Ms Margaret Ward, Mr David Robertson, Angus Weatherley, Mike Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Weir, Mr Mike AYES Rogerson, Dan Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Aldous, Peter Goodman, Helen Rosindell, Andrew Whitehead, Dr Alan Allen, Mr Graham Gray, Mr James Roy, Lindsay Whittaker, Craig Amess, Mr David Hames, Duncan Russell, Bob Whittingdale, Mr John Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Hamilton, Mr David Sanders, Mr Adrian Wicks, rh Malcolm Bacon, Mr Richard Hanson, rh Mr David Shuker, Gavin Williams, Mr Mark Bagshawe, Ms Louise Harris, Mr Tom Smith, rh Mr Andrew Williams, Roger Bailey, Mr Adrian Heaton-Harris, Chris Smith, Sir Robert Williams, Stephen Baker, Steve Hemming, John Soulsby, Sir Peter Williamson, Chris Baldwin, Harriett Hendrick, Mark Stephenson, Andrew Wishart, Pete Barwell, Gavin Hilling, Julie Stevenson, John Wollaston, Dr Sarah Bayley, Hugh Hinds, Damian Stewart, Bob Wright, Simon Beith, rh Sir Alan Hollingbery, George Stride, Mel Yeo, Mr Tim Benn, rh Hilary Hollobone, Mr Philip Stuart, Ms Gisela Betts, Mr Clive Horwood, Martin Tellers for the Ayes: Stuart, Mr Graham Mr Michael Meacher and Binley, Mr Brian Hosie, Stewart Swales, Ian Mr Peter Bone Blomfield, Paul Hughes, Simon Bottomley, Peter Huppert, Dr Julian Brady, Mr Graham Illsley, Mr Eric NOES Brake, Tom Jackson, Mr Stewart Adams, Nigel Burt, Lorely Brazier, Mr Julian Jenkin, Mr Bernard Alexander, rh Danny Byles, Dan Brennan, Kevin Jones, Susan Elan Andrew, Stuart Byrne, rh Mr Liam Brooke, Annette Kelly, Chris Bain, Mr William Cairns, Alun Bruce, rh Malcolm Kendall, Liz Baker, Norman Campbell, Mr Alan Bryant, Chris Kirby, Simon Baldry, Tony Carmichael, Mr Alistair Buckland, Mr Robert Lancaster, Mark Barclay, Stephen Carmichael, Neil Burden, Richard Leech, Mr John Barker, Gregory Chishti, Rehman Cable, rh Vince Lefroy, Jeremy Bebb, Guto Clark, rh Greg Carswell, Mr Douglas Leigh, Mr Edward Beckett, rh Margaret Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Cash, Mr William Leslie, Charlotte Begg, Miss Anne Clarke, rh Mr Tom Chope, Mr Christopher Leslie, Chris Bellingham, Mr Henry Coffey, Dr Thérèse Clark, Katy Lewis, Dr Julian Beresford, Sir Paul Collins, Damian Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Lilley, rh Mr Peter Berger, Luciana Colvile, Oliver Clwyd, rh Ann Lloyd, Stephen Berry, Jake Crausby, Mr David Connarty, Michael Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Bingham, Andrew Creasy, Stella Corbyn, Jeremy Love, Mr Andrew Birtwistle, Gordon Crouch, Tracey Crockart, Mike Lucas, Caroline Blackman, Bob Cryer, John Dakin, Nic Lucas, Ian Blackwood, Nicola Cunningham, Alex Davies, Geraint MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Blenkinsop, Tom Cunningham, Mr Jim Davies, Philip Main, Mrs Anne Blunkett, rh Mr David Cunningham, Tony Davis, rh Mr David Mann, John Blunt, Mr Crispin Curran, Margaret Durkan, Mark McCartney, Karl Bradley, Karen David, Mr Wayne Edwards, Jonathan McGovern, Alison Bray, Angie Davidson, Mr Ian Ellison, Jane McKinnell, Catherine Bridgen, Andrew Davies, David T. C. Elphicke, Charlie Mercer, Patrick Brine, Mr Steve (Monmouth) Engel, Natascha Miller, Andrew Brokenshire, James Davies, Glyn Evans, Graham Mills, Nigel Brown, Lyn de Bois, Nick Farron, Tim Moon, Mrs Madeleine Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Dinenage, Caroline Field, Mr Mark Morgan, Nicky Brown, Mr Russell Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Foster, Mr Don Morris, Anne Marie Browne, Mr Jeremy Dobbin, Jim Freeman, George Mosley, Stephen Bruce, Fiona Docherty, Thomas Gapes, Mike Mowat, David Burley, Mr Aidan Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Garnier, Mark Mulholland, Greg Burns, Conor Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen George, Andrew Munn, Meg Burns, Mr Simon Dorries, Nadine Gilbert, Stephen Nash, Pamela Burrowes, Mr David Doyle, Gemma Glindon, Mrs Mary Nuttall, Mr David Burstow, Mr Paul Doyle-Price, Jackie Goldsmith, Zac Owen, Albert Burt, Alistair Drax, Richard 841 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 842

Duddridge, James Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Sarwar, Anas Timpson, Mr Edward Dugher, Michael Latham, Pauline Scott, Mr Lee Uppal, Paul Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Lavery, Ian Selous, Andrew Vaizey, Mr Edward Dunne, Mr Philip Lazarowicz, Mark Shapps, rh Grant Vickers, Martin Elliott, Julie Leadsom, Andrea Sharma, Alok Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Ellis, Michael Lee, Jessica Shelbrooke, Alec Watkinson, Angela Ellwood, Mr Tobias Lee, Dr Phillip Simmonds, Mark Watts, Mr Dave Eustice, George Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Simpson, Mr Keith Webb, Steve Evans, Chris Lewis, Brandon Skidmore, Chris Wharton, James Evans, Jonathan Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Skinner, Mr Dennis Wheeler, Heather Evennett, Mr David Lidington, Mr David Smith, Henry White, Chris Fabricant, Michael Lloyd, Tony Smith, Julian Wiggin, Bill Featherstone, Lynne Lopresti, Jack Soubry, Anna Willetts, rh Mr David Francois, rh Mr Mark Lord, Jonathan Spellar, rh Mr John Williamson, Gavin Freer, Mike Loughton, Tim Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Fuller, Richard Luff, Peter Spencer, Mr Mark Woodcock, John Garnier, Mr Edward Lumley, Karen Stanley, rh Sir John Wright, David Gauke, Mr David Macleod, Mary Stewart, Iain Wright, Jeremy Gibb, Mr Nick Maude, rh Mr Francis Stewart, Rory Young, rh Sir George Gilmore, Sheila May, rh Mrs Theresa Stunell, Andrew Zahawi, Nadhim Glen, John McCabe, Steve Sturdy, Julian Goggins, rh Paul McCarthy, Kerry Swayne, Mr Desmond Tellers for the Noes: Goodwill, Mr Robert McCartney, Jason Swire, Mr Hugo Mr Shailesh Vara and Gove, rh Michael McIntosh, Miss Anne Tami, Mark Miss Chloe Smith Graham, Richard McKechin, Ann Grant, Mrs Helen McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Question accordingly negatived. Grayling, rh Chris McPartland, Stephen Greatrex, Tom McVey, Esther Amendment (c) to motion 2 made: Leave out Green, Damian Mearns, Ian paragraph (8)—(Mr Allen.) Green, Kate Menzies, Mark Main Question, as amended, agreed to. Greening, Justine Metcalfe, Stephen Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Miller, Maria That the following new Standing Order be made:— Griffith, Nia Milton, Anne (1) There shall be a select committee, called the Backbench Griffiths, Andrew Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Business Committee, to determine the backbench business to be Gummer, Ben Moore, rh Michael taken in the House and in Westminster Hall on days, or parts of Gyimah, Mr Sam Morris, David days, allotted for backbench business. Halfon, Robert Morris, Grahame M. (2) The committee shall consist of a chair and seven other Hammond, Stephen Morris, James Members, of whom four shall be a quorum. Hancock, Matthew Mundell, rh David (3) The chair and other members of the committee shall Hands, Greg Munt, Tessa continue as members of the committee for the remainder of the Harper, Mr Mark Murray, Ian Session in which they are elected unless replaced under the Harrington, Richard Murray, Sheryll provisions of Standing Order No. (Election of Backbench Business Harris, Rebecca Murrison, Dr Andrew Committee). Hart, Simon Neill, Robert (4) The chair and members of the committee shall be elected in Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Newmark, Mr Brooks accordance with the provisions of Standing Order No. (Election Hayes, Mr John Newton, Sarah of Backbench Business Committee). Heath, Mr David Nokes, Caroline (5) No Member who is a Minister of the Crown or parliamentary Henderson, Gordon Norman, Jesse private secretary or a principal opposition front-bench spokesperson Herbert, rh Nick Ollerenshaw, Eric shall be eligible to be the chair or a member of the committee: the Hoban, Mr Mark Onwurah, Chi Speaker’s decision shall be final on such matters. Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Opperman, Guy Hopkins, Kris Ottaway, Richard (6) The committee shall have power to invite Government Howarth, Mr Gerald Paice, Mr James officials to attend all or part of any of its meetings. Howell, John Patel, Priti (7) The committee shall determine the backbench business to Huhne, rh Chris Pawsey, Mark be taken— Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Penning, Mike (a) in the House on any day, or any part of any day, allotted Hunter, Mark Penrose, John under paragraph Hurd, Mr Nick Perry, Claire (3A) of Standing Order No. 14, and Irranca-Davies, Huw Phillips, Stephen James, Margot Pickles, rh Mr Eric (b) in Westminster Hall, in accordance with paragraph (3A) of Javid, Sajid Pound, Stephen Standing Order Johnson, Gareth Prisk, Mr Mark No. 10, and shall report its determinations to the House. Johnson, Joseph Randall, rh Mr John Jones, Andrew Reid, Mr Alan Jones, Mr David Reynolds, Emma ELECTION OF BACKBENCH BUSINESS Jones, Helen Robathan, Mr Andrew COMMITTEE Jones, Mr Marcus Robertson, Hugh Keeley, Barbara Robertson, Mr Laurence Ordered, Knight, rh Mr Greg Roy, Mr Frank That the following new Standing Order be made:— Kwarteng, Kwasi Rudd, Amber (1)(a) The election of the chair of the Backbench Business Laing, Mrs Eleanor Rutley, David Committee shall take place at the start of each Session on a day to Lamb, Norman Sandys, Laura be determined by the Speaker. 843 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 844

(b) Nominations of candidates shall be in writing and shall be (other than any order of the day or notice of motion on which the received by the Clerk of the House between 10 am and 5 pm on question is to be put forthwith) on those days; and the provisions the day before the day appointed for election. of paragraph (2)(c) of this Standing Order shall apply to any of (c) Each nomination shall consist of a signed statement made those days taken in the House in the form of half-days. by the candidate declaring their willingness to stand for election, (3B) For the purposes of paragraph (3A) above, a Thursday accompanied by the signatures of not fewer than twenty nor more sitting in Westminster Hall at which the business is appointed by than twenty-five Members, of whom no fewer than ten shall be the Backbench Business Committee shall count as one half-day members of the candidate’s party and no fewer than ten shall be and a topical debate shall count as one quarter-day. members of any other party or no party. (3C) Backbench business comprises all proceedings in the (d) No Member may sign the statement of more than one Chamber relating to any motion or order of the day except: candidate. (a) government business, that is proceedings relating to government (e) As soon as practicable following the close of nominations, a bills, financial business, proceedings under any Act of Parliament, list of the candidates and their accompanying signatories shall be or relating to European Union Documents, or any other motion published. in the name of a Minister of the Crown; (f) Arrangements for the election shall follow those set out in (b) opposition business under paragraph (2) above; paragraphs (9) to (14) of Standing Order No. 122B (Election of (c) motions for the adjournment of the House under paragraph (7) committee chairs), save that in sub-paragraph (11)(e) the opening of Standing Order No. 9 (Sittings of the House), private Members’ hours of the ballot shall be between eleven o’clock and one motions for leave to bring in bills under Standing Order No. 23 o’clock and in paragraph (12) reference to variation of timings (Motions for leave to bring in bills and nomination of select shall be read as applying also to the timings in sub-paragraph (b) committees at commencement of public business) and private and (f) of this paragraph. Members’ bills under paragraphs (4) to (9) below; (2)(a)The election of members of the Backbench Business (d) proceedings relating to private business; Committee shall take place on a day to be determined by the Speaker as soon as practicable after the election of the chair. (e) any motion to amend this order or Standing Order No. (Backbench Business Committee); (b) Nominations of candidates shall be in writing and shall be received by the Clerk of the House between 10 am and 5 pm on (f) business set down at the direction of, or given precedence the day before the day appointed for election. by, the Speaker. (c) Each nomination shall consist of a signed statement made (3D) The proceedings to be taken as backbench business shall by the candidate declaring their willingness to stand for election, be determined by the Backbench Business Committee, as set out accompanied by the signatures of not fewer than twelve nor more in Standing Order No. (Backbench Business Committee).’— than fifteen Members. (Sir George Young.) (d) As soon as practicable following the close of nominations, Amendment (a) to motion 4 made: in paragraph (3A), a list of the candidates and their accompanying signatories shall after “backbench business”, insert be published. ‘of which at least twenty-seven shall be allotted for proceedings in (e) The provisions set out in paragraph (5) (a) to (d) and (f) of the House’’. Standing Order No. 2A (Election of the Deputy Speakers) shall Main Question, as amended, agreed to. apply to the election of members of the committee. That Standing Order No. 14 (Arrangement of public business) (f) The ballot shall be counted under the Single Transferable be amended by inserting at the end of line 40— Vote system, with constraints that of those elected: such a number of candidates shall come from each party represented in the ‘(3A) Thirty-five days or its equivalent shall be allotted in each House or those of no party as shall be determined and announced session for proceedings in the House and in Westminster Hall on in advance by the Speaker, in such a way as to ensure that the backbench business of which at least twenty-seven shall be allotted committee including the Chair reflects as closely as possible the for proceedings in the House; the business determined by the composition of the House, and (ii) at least two women and two Backbench Business Committee shall have precedence over men shall be elected. government business (other than any order of the day or notice of motion on which the question is to be put forthwith) on those (3)(a) Standing Order No. 122C (Resignation or removal of days; and the provisions of paragraph (2)(c) of this Standing chairs of select committees) shall apply to the chair of the Order shall apply to any of those days taken in the House in the Backbench Business Committee, save for paragraph (2) of that form of half-days. Order; and any election following a vacancy in the chair shall be held under the provisions of paragraph (1) (b) to (f) above. (3B) For the purposes of paragraph (3A) above, a Thursday sitting in Westminster Hall at which the business is appointed by (b) Where a member of the committee has ceased to be a the Backbench Business Committee shall count as one half-day member of this House or has given written notice to the Speaker and a topical debate shall count as one quarter-day. of a wish to resign from the committee, the Speaker shall make arrangements for the election by the House of a replacement (3C) Backbench business comprises all proceedings in the using the Alternative Vote System as set out in paragraph (11) of Chamber relating to any motion or order of the day except: Standing Order No. 122B (Election of committee chairs), and (a) government business, that is proceedings relating to government may give such directions on the party affiliation required for a bills, financial business, proceedings under any Act of Parliament, valid candidature as are necessary to preserve the balance of or relating to European Union Documents, or any other motion parties on the committee as referred to in paragraph (2)(f)(i) in the name of a Minister of the Crown; above.—(Sir George Young.) (b) opposition business under paragraph (2) above; (c) motions for the adjournment of the House under paragraph (7) of Standing Order No. 9 (Sittings of the House), private Members’ BACKBENCH BUSINESS (AMENDMENT OF motions for leave to bring in bills under Standing Order No. 23 STANDING ORDERS) (Motions for leave to bring in bills and nomination of select Motion made and Question proposed, committees at commencement of public business) and private Members’ bills under paragraphs (4) to (9) below; That Standing Order No. 14 (Arrangement of public business) be amended by inserting at the end of line 40— (d) proceedings relating to private business; ‘(3A) Thirty-five days or its equivalent shall be allotted in each (e) any motion to amend this order or Standing Order No. session for proceedings in the House and in Westminster Hall on (Backbench Business Committee); backbench business; the business determined by the Backbench (f) business set down at the direction of, or given precedence Business Committee shall have precedence over government business by, the Speaker. 845 Backbench Business Committee15 JUNE 2010 Backbench Business Committee 846

(3D) The proceedings to be taken as backbench business shall PAY FOR CHAIRS OF SELECT COMMITTEES be determined by the Backbench Business Committee, as set out (NO. 2) in Standing Order No. (Backbench Business Committee).’ Queen’s recommendation signified. Ordered, WESTMINSTER HALL (AMENDMENT OF That the Resolution of the House of 30 October 2003, relating STANDING ORDERS) to Pay for Chairs of Select Committees (No. 2), be further amended by inserting after ‘the Political and Constitutional Reform Ordered, Committee’, ‘the Backbench Business Committee’.—(Sir George That Standing Order No. 10 (Westminster Hall) be amended Young.) as follows:— (1) In paragraph (3) leave out ‘Subject to paragraph (13) below’ SEPTEMBER SITTINGS and insert ‘On Tuesdays and Wednesdays’; Resolved, (2) After paragraph (3) insert— That this House reaffirms the importance of its function of ‘(3A) Subject to paragraph (13), the business taken at any holding the Government to account: and accordingly asks the Thursday sitting in Westminster Hall shall be such as the Backbench Government to put to this House specific proposals for sitting Business Committee shall determine’; periods in September 2010.—(Sir George Young.) (3) In paragraph (13)— Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con):No. (a) leave out ‘not more than six’ and insert ‘twenty’; (b) at end add ‘, but the Speaker may appoint fewer than Mr Speaker: Far be it for me to suggest that any hon. twenty days with the agreement of the Liaison Committee’.— Member—still less right hon. Member—is behaving (Sir George Young.) vexatiously. I cannot believe it for a moment.

DEFERRED DIVISIONS (TIMING) TOPICAL DEBATES (AMENDMENTS OF STANDING ORDERS) Ordered, Ordered, That Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) be amended as follows:— That the Standing Orders be amended as follows:— (1) in line 37, leave out ‘half-past twelve o’clock’ and insert (1) In Standing Order No. 24A (Topical debates), ‘half-past eleven o’clock’; and (a) in paragraph (1) leave out ‘A Minister of the Crown’ and (2) in line 44, by leaving out ‘one and a half hours after insert ‘The Backbench Business Committee’, and half-past twelve o’clock’ and inserting ‘two and a half hours after (b) leave out paragraphs (3) to (8). half-past eleven o’clock’.—(Sir George Young.) (2) In Standing Order No. 47 (Time limits on speeches), SELECT COMMITTEES (MACHINERY OF (a) after paragraph (3) insert— GOVERNMENT CHANGE) ‘(3A) The Speaker may announce, at or before the commencement of a topical debate in respect of which he has made or intends to Ordered, make an announcement under paragraph (1) of this order, that That Standing Order No. 152 (Select committees related to speeches by a Minister of the Crown and any Member speaking government departments) be amended in the table in paragraph (2), on behalf of the Leader of the Opposition shall be limited to ten by leaving out item 2 (Children, Schools and Families) and minutes and he may direct any such Member who has spoken for inserting in the appropriate place: that period to resume his seat forthwith.’; and (b) in line 31, after ‘(3)’ insert ‘or (3A)’.—(Sir George Young.) ‘Education Department for 11’ Education

—(Sir George Young.) PAY FOR CHAIRS OF SELECT COMMITTEES Resolved, SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE That this House expresses the opinion that the Resolution of Ordered, the House of 30 October 2003, relating to Pay for Chairs of Select That, on Tuesday 22 June, the House shall meet at 11.30 am Committees (No.2), should be further amended by inserting after and references to specific times in the Standing Orders of this ‘the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee’, ‘the Backbench House shall apply as if that day were a Wednesday.—(Sir George Business Committee’.—(Sir George Young.) Young.) 847 15 JUNE 2010 Private Wheel-Clamping Companies 848

Private Wheel-Clamping Companies to reason with it and ask it at least to join the British Parking Association, so that it would need to adhere to Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House the association’s code of practice. As far as I am aware, do now adjourn.—(James Duddridge.) it has not done so. Since then, it has been impossible to pin it down to another meeting. This epitomises the Mr Speaker: Before the right hon. Member for Doncaster attitude of some of these companies: they are completely Central (Ms Winterton) starts her speech—[Interruption.] unaccountable for their actions, and they leave people Order. Can I please ask right hon. and hon. Members to frustrated and angry about the way they are treated—or, leave the Chamber quickly and quietly, and to grant the not so much treated as bullied. right hon. Lady the same courtesy that they would want if they had the Adjournment debate? Of course we should not have a parking free-for-all, and of course private landowners need to protect their land, but we all know that that is not what is happening. 10.1 pm This is not about keeping car parks free for specific Ms Rosie Winterton (Doncaster Central) (Lab): I users; it is about luring motorists on to private land to very much welcome the opportunity to debate the activities get as much money out of them as possible. It causes of private wheel-clamping companies, particularly in endless problems for the local police, who have to spend Doncaster Central. I also very much welcome the fact their time explaining to worried motorists that their car that this is, as I understand it, the Minister’s first has not been stolen, but that it has been clamped and appearance at the Dispatch Box. I am utterly confident towed away. that when she hears my arguments, she will make it one One of my constituents whose car was clamped had of her missions as a Minister to take up the ideas that just had both his hips replaced. He was told that his car I am about to put forward. would not be released unless he handed over £100 in I first became involved in the issue 14 years ago, when cash. Not having that kind of money on him, he had to I realised the extent of the misery and distress that walk into the centre of town to withdraw the money rogue wheel-clamping companies were causing, not only from the ATM. On his return, he was confronted with a in Doncaster Central, but in other parts of Yorkshire—and, further demand for £55 to cancel a towing vehicle that for that matter, in hot spots around the country. Just had been ordered while he was away. He had to go back how appalling some of those companies behave has into town to collect the money. This was on a Sunday been highlighted by both the Automobile Association night in February, when we were experiencing some of and the Royal Automobile Club, which have received the coldest temperatures for a generation. He said that literally thousands of complaints from their members. I there were four notices in the car park, all of which were would like to thank Edmund King—now at the AA—for printed in small black and white lettering that would all the help that he has given me and other Members of not have been legible in the dark to anyone who lacked the House in our campaign to outlaw unacceptable outstanding eyesight. practices. Another sorry tale involves two of my constituents— ladies in their 60s and 70s—who were fined £250 each The media have also recognised how outraged the to release their vehicles. Again, a lack of clear signage public are about the problem. There are countless stories was the issue. The women also found that, when they of truly unacceptable practices by some companies. I called the number, there was an out-of-date answerphone want to thank the Doncaster Free Press for the campaign message telling the caller to read the back of the parking that it has been running with me to highlight how ticket for information on how to appeal. However, the vulnerable elderly people, young mothers with children tickets that they had received had no information on and, frankly, people who can least afford it are being clamping or appeals, or information about the time at stung for large amounts of money. I say “stung” because which the cars were clamped. When they came to see many such companies use every trick in the book to get me, they said that they had felt threatened by the man round the legislation as it stands. who had clamped them. He was not wearing a uniform The Doncaster Free Press and I have received endless and his vehicle was unmarked. They were also told by complaints from local people about a company called man on the telephone that, if they failed to pay the fine Park Rite, which operates in Doncaster. The company by 4 pm, they would have to pay another £100, and that has concealed signs covered with minute writing, so that he would not accept a cheque. In her own words, one of it is impossible to read that a particular location is a the women said of the incident: private car park, and it charges extortionate fees, often “I am a pensioner, and to be bullied, over the telephone...is by charging two or three times for the same parking very intimidating. The stress and anxiety caused, having to obtain transgression—once for clamping and once for towing money, hire a taxi and locate the whereabouts of the vehicles left away, and then again for storage. There are complaints me bereft and traumatized.” about the company’s refusal to have a proper appeals Treating an elderly person in this way should not be procedure, using mobile phones that are not answered tolerated. and demanding cash only. Park Rite accepts no other I have campaigned for tighter control of these companies form of payment, such as cheques or debit cards, which over several years, along with a number of other Members has led to people being frogmarched to cash points, of this House, some of whom are here tonight. I am with the clampers standing over them to make sure that grateful to them for their support. We made progress they come up with the money. under the Labour Government, first by setting up the The Free Press and I launched a petition to call on Security Industry Authority in 2005, then through the Park Rite to change the way in which it was operating. licensing of individual clampers. Unfortunately, that We were supported by two local companies, Cooplands did not solve the problem. It became clear that the only and Weldricks Pharmacy, and we received a huge amount way to guard against rogue practice would be to ensure of support. I had one meeting with the company, to try that the private clamping companies—not just the clampers 849 Private Wheel-Clamping Companies15 JUNE 2010 Private Wheel-Clamping Companies 850

[Ms Rosie Winterton] takes the money, not the one doing the clamping, which is probably technically illegal. If the Minister cannot themselves—had to be licensed, had to conform to a give me an answer to this question now, will she perhaps strict code of conduct and had to be subject to an come back to me in writing? independent and fair appeals process. Urgent regulations need to be introduced to implement That is why the Crime and Security Act 2010 was the Crime and Security Act 2010 because the public passed. I want to pay particular tribute to my hon. have a right to be treated humanely. The law must afford Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Mr Campbell), people protection. At the moment, drivers continue to who, as a Minister, pursued this issue relentlessly. It is be terrorised by a small but active number of rogue thanks to him that those measures were included in that wheel-clampers. As I said, this is a particular problem in legislation. The Act introduced a requirement for clamping Doncaster, but I know that many other areas around companies, as well as clampers, to be licensed. It also the country are also affected. We must prevent it happening introduced a mandatory code of practice and an in those other areas as well. No time should be lost in independent appeal system. The Act has been passed, the Home Office’s making of new regulations to outlaw but now we need urgent action to bring in the regulations. this behaviour once and for all. I urge the Minister to I know that my hon. Friend had a number of discussions do so. about the implementation of the Act with organisations such as the AA, the RAC and the British Parking Association, so the groundwork has been done. 10.14 pm The Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Government document stated: Home Department (Lynne Featherstone): May I congratulate the right hon. Member for Doncaster Central “We will tackle rogue private sector wheel clampers”, (Ms Winterton) on securing this debate on wheel-clamping? which I certainly welcome. I am concerned, however, It is an important debate on a very important subject, that the new Government have stated that they are and her interest in it is well documented. I am sure that rather averse to introducing any new regulations, so I the right hon. Lady’s concerns are shared by many would be grateful if the Minister gave me reassurances Members, if not every Member whose constituents have on the following points. First, can the Minister confirm encountered these abuses. I am sure that what she has that the Government will definitely introduce the necessary told us tonight is familiar to all of us from our regulations under the Crime and Security Act 2010? constituencies. I know that wheel-clamping and the Secondly, can the Minister also confirm the timetable related activities of blocking in and towing away continue for introduction? Thirdly, can she confirm that she to cause great anger. Some of the most common complaints intends to set up an independent panel to review appeals concern the amount of release fees, inadequate signage, against fines, and will it be within the time scale set out and immediate clamping or towing away. Having been by the previous Government—by 2011? Finally, can she chair of transport in London for nearly five years when say what steps will be taken to remove a wheel-clamping I was a member of the London Assembly, I am more company from the approved operators scheme if it is than well acquainted with the problems that motorists found to be behaving inappropriately, and how long face. I also know about the pressure on parking places. that would take? While safety, traffic flow and the fair rationing of parking In the meantime, before the Minister brings in these spaces—on which there is always huge pressure—are new regulations, which is obviously going to be done entirely legitimate reasons for regulation, parking controls quickly, I ask the Minister to ask the Home Secretary to too often appear to be about revenue-raising, as the encourage police forces in England and Wales to enforce right hon. Lady pointed out. Our mission is to ensure the existing legislation that outlaws clamping without a that we deliver a solution to the problem. licence. I am concerned that some unlicensed or criminal If we want people to comply willingly with parking clamping does take place, but is not enforced. controls, those controls must be fair and just. The right hon. Lady used two examples to illustrate how unjust John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): I congratulate my rogue clampers can be—indeed, cruel beyond belief. right hon. Friend on being the national champion on Her story of the man with the hip replacements this issue—this plague that has now spread to my having to walk on a cold February night, and then constituency. Is she aware that, just this morning, being asked to do it again, seems to show the clampers Farmfoods, a major retailer in my constituency and verging on sadism. She went on to describe an incident elsewhere, has distanced itself from the plague of new in which two older ladies were each fined £250 when, in clampers who have arrived in Retford over the last reality—as is so often the case—the issue was poor month—totally unrequested, totally unlicensed, and signage. Such cases seem to constitute little more than grabbing money from the innocent? entrapment, in which rogue clampers literally set a trap. They view it as a honey pot, while we, the public, Ms Winterton: I know that my hon. Friend has become the cash cow. campaigned hard on this issue as well. This is exactly Moreover, in my experience, more often than not it is the point: unless these regulations are brought in quickly, those who try hard to comply with all the rules and there is a danger that some of these clamping companies controls who get caught out. People who seek to park will feel that the foot has been taken off the pedal and legitimately and check for signs, but see none and park, that they will somehow have an opportunity to sneak in are shattered not just by the upset caused by the financial and increase rather than decrease their activities, when hit from the clamping—which is substantial—but by it is a decrease that we all want to see. As I say, some the actual experience of being clamped when they were clamping firms may have many operatives, but few being good and trying not to break the rules. We must licences. The licence is produced by the operative who not let the good guys be the fall guys for rogue clampers. 851 Private Wheel-Clamping Companies15 JUNE 2010 Private Wheel-Clamping Companies 852

That is why the coalition’s programme for partnership Experience has shown, however, that licensing of government, published on 20 May, included the individuals has had little impact on the behaviours commitment that the right hon. Lady quoted: which generate most complaints from the public. That “We will tackle rogue private sector wheel clampers.” is because most of those behaviours are controlled by the vehicle immobilisation businesses, and are out of I hope that both what I have said—which was quite the control of the individual clampers. strong—and that published commitment by the coalition Government indicate our position, and assure the right The Home Office conducted a public consultation hon. Lady that we are on the same side in this debate. I last year to gather more information about these abuses. have seen examples of abuses of parking controls on Over 500 people responded. That research showed that private land in my own constituency, mostly involving the public’s main concerns, which had not been addressed poor signage but also involving abusive behaviour on by individual licensing, include, pretty much as the right the part of clampers. hon. Lady annunciated: inadequate signage, including small size and poor visibility, so motorists do not know At present, the Private Security Industry Act 2001 that they are not allowed to park or the consequences of requires individual vehicle immobilisers carrying out overstaying; high release fees, sometimes totalling hundreds clamping and towing on private land with a view to of pounds; demanding immediate cash payments and charging a fee to hold a licence issued by the Security not accepting other forms of payment, such as credit or Industry Authority. That has been required in England debit cards; immediate clamping or towing away after a and Wales since 2006, and was extended to Northern parking ticket has expired; the lack of an effective Ireland last year. Licensing of individual clampers is means of contesting a charge; no place for the motorist designed to protect the public by ensuring that only fit to turn when they feel unfairly treated; lack of evidence and proper persons with the necessary skills and knowledge from the clampers that the motorist had breached parking are employed. As I am sure the right hon. Lady knows, rules, such as photographic evidence or retention of to qualify for a licence applicants need to pass an records; and aggressive or intimidating behaviour by identity check and a criminal record check, and to the clampers. Many of my constituents have faced such complete an accredited training course. There are currently problems. Some have phoned me in tears because of more than 2,200 wheel-clampers with a licence. Since seriously abusive behaviour. the introduction of licensing, over 290 people have had The Government are committed to tackling the menace their applications for licences refused because they did of rogue private sector wheel-clampers and are looking not meet the criteria, and 22 licence-holders have had at all available options. I have seen articles in the media their licences revoked. over the past few days that ask whether and when the The right hon. Lady asked some specific questions Government plan to bring into force the Crime and about enforcement in Doncaster. She asked me to encourage Security Act 2010, which was introduced by the previous the Home Secretary to speak to the police, but it is up to Government. The Act seeks to address these problems individual police forces to decide what their priorities by requiring vehicle immobilisation businesses to be are and what to focus on. The Private Security Industry licensed by the Security Industry Authority and to Act 2001 contained a number of specific offences to comply with the conditions of a code to be set out in deal with people working without a licence and deploying regulations. These conditions could, for example, limit unlicensed staff. The police do enforce that. The Security the release fee and require the display of signs warning Industry Authority also has powers to do so, although motorists where clamping takes place. It would also it tends to focus on companies, rather than individuals. allow for an independent appeals system to be set up for It can revoke licences, and the punishment for individuals motorists who have been clamped. not having a licence is up to six months in prison and/or This new system is not in place, however. The 2010 a fine of up to £5,000. Act received Royal Assent on 8 April, just prior to the I looked up the performance of police forces. Merseyside general election, but the relevant provisions have not yet is one of the best performing on the issue. In 2007, been commenced. I want to make it absolutely clear Merseyside police proceeded against 200 clampers and that the coalition Government response actually tackles found 157 guilty. In 2008, the last year for which I could the problems caused by rogue clampers. The Act does find figures, they proceeded against 54 and found 47 guilty. not necessarily solve all of the problems, however, so I In South Yorkshire, which includes Doncaster Central, am looking at all available options as quickly as possible, in 2007, no clampers were proceeded against, so none including those not set out in the 2010 Act. was found guilty. In 2008, two were proceeded against This is the right time to consider our approach before and two were found guilty. I suggest therefore that there taking any action. We should adopt an approach that is is an issue that needs to be dealt with. However, it not proportionate, and which balances the rights of the necessarily for the Home Secretary to deal with it. It is motorist to have access to their vehicle with the rights of beholden perhaps on all Members of Parliament in that landowners to use and control access to their property. area to speak to the police chief to point out that Clamping should not be used simply as a means of differential figure, which is startling. generating revenue from motorists who have no choice On only one operative having a licence, the right hon. but to pay. We have been clear about our commitment Lady is correct: it is a legal requirement for everyone to tackle rogue wheel-clampers, and we will do so, but I involved in clamping activity to have a licence—not just want to ensure that our response is clear, decisive and those who receive the money, but those who put on and effective. remove the clamps. The licences must be displayed and We understand the concerns of Members and others it is an offence not to wear the licence. Those in companies who have made representations about wheel-clamping that supply unlicensed workers can face an unlimited and want to see action. I agree that we must act. As fine and up to five years in prison. The police should soon as we have decided on the way forward, we will also be acting on those cases. announce our intentions and we will act. 853 Private Wheel-Clamping Companies15 JUNE 2010 Private Wheel-Clamping Companies 854

[Lynne Featherstone] 10.25 pm

I thank the right hon. Lady again for securing this House adjourned. important debate. Question put and agreed to. 69WH 15 JUNE 2010 UK Parliamentary Sovereignty 70WH and the EU On such a full sea are we now afloat, Westminster Hall And we must take the current when it serves, Or lose our ventures.” Tuesday 15 June 2010 I believe that we are at such a moment. It is ironic, perhaps, that this week there will be an incredibly important summit that will deal with the [MR.GARY STREETER in the Chair] essence of our sovereignty in relation to the proposals for budgetary arrangements and the question of whether UK Parliamentary Sovereignty they would be presented to the European Commission and the EU before they are presented to this sovereign Parliament. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting Therefore, without overdoing it, I hope, I suggest that, be now adjourned.—(James Duddridge.) as in the case of the passage I just read out, this is the moment when there will be those who will be seen at Philippi. 9.30 am There are similar problems today in respect of the Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): It is a pleasure to sovereignty of our country, our people and our Parliament, speak before you in this Chamber, Mr. Streeter. I would and we have a responsibility to deal with them analytically like to dedicate this debate to my mother, who died this and politically. Sovereignty means supreme power or past weekend, and to my father, who was killed in authority. It means a self-governing state. I hasten to action in Normandy in the last war. add—this is for my hon. Friend the Minister, with I heard today that Philip Ziegler’s biography of whom I have had the pleasure of debating these matters Mr Edward Heath has just been published. I recall over many years—that this debate is not specifically vividly a discussion that I had with Mr Heath in the about getting out but about the practicalities of how we Smoking Room on an anniversary of the D-day landings. should now deal with the European issue. It is not about It transpired that we had an enormous amount in an abstraction but about the daily lives, economic and common, which may seem very strange. I heard Philip political, of those who vote us into this Parliament. It is Ziegler this morning describing Edward Heath as a about Euro-realism in the United Kingdom and in person who stuck to his course, who did what he thought Europe as a whole. was necessary, and who was bloody-minded. That is not This debate is about rules that do not work, economically an uncommon characteristic of those of us who get or politically, and the need for radical reform of a entrenched in European battles. system that has become uniform and inflexible, with the I recall that Mr Heath was not much disposed to talk acquis communautaire, which has become sacrosanct at the beginning. He had on an Artillery tie, and I asked and irreversible, and with majority voting and the pernicious him, “Why have you got that tie on?” He said, “It is system of co-decision. Barring only a total negotiated because of today’s commemoration.” I mentioned the change by all 27 members in an association of nation fact that my father had been killed in Normandy, where states will problems be resolved. If and when that fails, Mr Heath had fought at the same time. Interestingly—to we must assert the sovereignty of the UK Parliament to me, at any rate—he then began to engage in earnest override this failing system. It is in our vital national conversation and explained to me the real reason he interest to do so. took the line that he did on Europe, which I do not To give but one example of the problems, the system think has come out in some of the reviews of the book. of co-decision is described by someone from the European He felt that if we did not take that line, the problems Commission’s Legal Service as creating a situation in that he had witnessed in the war might well recur. which the European Parliament I also remember, while I am in historical mode, a “is allowed to propose uniform, irrational, impractical amendments, Cabinet lunch in July 1990 to which I was unexpectedly safe in the knowledge that they have no responsibility for invited. Margaret Thatcher, now Baroness Thatcher, implementation.” invited me to No. 10. She said, “Today we will talk Of course, that is compounded by the role of the about Europe.” There I was, surrounded by an impressive European Court of Justice. If the Legal Service takes galaxy of Cabinet Members. She turned to me and that view, and it is so seminal to the undermining of the asked, “Bill, what do you feel about Europe?” Rather sovereignty of this Parliament, a serious review is called taken aback, I said that I thought that her task was for. more difficult than Churchill’s. She said, “Did everyone On the “Today” programme yesterday, I heard a hear that? Bill says that my task is more difficult than pre-eminent German banker state that he believes that Churchill’s. Can you explain?”I said, “Yes, Prime Minister. there will be “revolts in the street” in “ever higher He was faced with bombs and aircraft. You are faced frequency” and a kicking out of the Government. He with pieces of paper.” That is the starting point of my described the situation as highly dangerous, and said concern about what has developed during the 26 years that there were indications of revolution. Michael Sturmer, that I have had the honour of being a Member of this who was Chancellor Kohl’s adviser, is also deeply disturbed, House. and Angela Merkel herself, who, by all accounts in The time has come for action. I quote a passage from today’s paper, is in serious crisis with her coalition, “Julius Caesar”: acknowledged recently that Europe is in danger, as is “There is a tide in the affairs of men the euro. So it is, and so are we. Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune; We have already seen hundreds of thousands of people Omitted, all the voyage of their life all over Europe coming out on to the streets, and the Is bound in shallows and in miseries. catastrophic failure in Greece. It is not as if this has not 71WH UK Parliamentary Sovereignty 15 JUNE 2010 UK Parliamentary Sovereignty 72WH and the EU and the EU [Mr William Cash] The situation has become significantly worse, including proposals in the context of majority voting for the been coming for decades. In a series of essays published sovereign right of the United Kingdom Parliament to in “Visions of Europe” in 1993, I warned of how the receive and determine its own budget, which the Prime then new rules of economic and monetary union, which Minister will have to address this week. I regret to say we opposed at Maastricht, would increase the likelihood that under the coalition agreement we are now reduced of strikes and civil disorder but that there would be less to a mere proposal for a commission to discuss sovereignty, and less practical accountability as the leaders of Europe not the manifesto commitment to pass the sovereignty withdrew from their responsibilities and handed over Act on which we fought the election, and to which I more decisions to unelected bankers and officials. referred in my commitments in my election material. I then went on to warn of the neutering of national In my judgment, the sovereignty of the United Kingdom parliaments and the paralysis of Europe, which would Parliament and the imminent practical necessity supersedes “give way to the…collapse of the Rule of Law, compounded by the compromises of a coalition. This is no time for waves of immigration from the east, recession and lawlessness.” dither or prevarication, or for too-clever-by-half manoeuvres I say this not with any sense of self-congratulation—at by the Foreign Office or diplomats in the Committee of the time of the Maastricht rebellion, we were under the Permanent Representatives, or by others. This is a time most intense pressure to disavow what we were saying. I for action. We are where we are, and we must address simply ask that, in all honesty—an eminent columnist the present crisis that lies at the heart of our constitution wrote to me the other day and said that it was lacking— and at the axis of our economic and political future. people admit that a problem exists and that it must be On “The Andrew Marr Show”last Sunday, the Foreign addressed. Secretary replied to questions about the European proposals The real question is what the UK and our coalition to submit the UK budget to European institutions Government will do about the situation as it is now—as before submission to the UK Parliament. He replied it has come about—and how they will lead the UK and that those were only proposals and would be dealt with Europe out of the predicted and present chaos which is in due course, and that we will argue for that position damaging to the UK economy and democracy, and to and maintain it. So far, so good, but we heard nothing individual European countries and Europe as a whole. about the use of the veto, no doubt in the knowledge That is a practical necessity requiring vision, statesmanship that the proposals will be dealt with by majority voting. and political will. The argument, I would say, is over, There are times when issues cannot simply go on being and it is now down to action. deferred or avoided, as happened, for example, in very The European Communities Act 1972, as Lord Bridge different times during the 1930s. We cannot expect that said in the Factortame case, is a voluntary Act. European something will turn up, or that negotiations with recalcitrant treaties are subordinate to Parliament—as I established parties will somehow succeed. in exchanges with the right hon. Members for Blackburn In 1986, I tabled an amendment to the Single European (Mr Straw) and for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) when Act, which is where majority voting comes from. It was they were Foreign Secretary and the Minister for Europe refused for debate but stated: respectively—and that includes the Lisbon treaty. I have “Nothing in this Act shall derogate from the sovereignty of the made that point consistently and repeatedly, and I have United Kingdom Parliament.” already made three speeches in the new Parliament on the issue. In January 2010, I set out the legal and It was supported by only one other Member of Parliament constitutional case, and in this contribution I wish to at the time, the right hon. Enoch Powell, who clearly concentrate more on the practical questions, as compared understood why it was important. with the remedies that I proposed in my United Kingdom There is also the question of the still outstanding Parliamentary Sovereignty Bill. Irish guarantees, which take us back to the Lisbon Over many years, I have set out the case in treaty and which we are told will be attached to the next correspondence with the current Prime Minister and accession treaty, possibly with Croatia. We will be denied Foreign Secretary for the immediate implementation of a referendum on that, despite the accretion of powers to the sovereignty Bill. In my view, there is an unchallengeable, the European Union that it will involve. We have already legal, political and constitutional case for that Bill, and been refused a referendum on that treaty, despite the a necessity to enact it immediately to underpin negotiations fact that it fundamentally alters the constitutional that are needed and which include, for example, talks relationship between the United Kingdom and the that the Prime Minister will conduct this week in Brussels. European Union—a point that was outrageously denied The sovereignty Bill was in our manifesto. On 4 November by the outgoing Government but well understood by 2009, my right hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Mr the Conservative Opposition during the last Parliament, Cameron), now Prime Minister, made a speech entitled, and about which I made a minority report in the “A European policy that people can believe in”, to European Scrutiny Committee. which I replied in The European Journal. That was on Why can France, Holland, Denmark, Ireland, Spain my website during the general election. and other European countries have referendums, yet we Immediately before the general election, I intimated deny one to our own people? There is also the question to the current Foreign Secretary that we needed the of what are, in my view, the unlawful guarantees given sovereignty Bill now, so as to underpin negotiations and by the former Chancellor of the Exchequer regarding deal with what appeared to be the inevitable and now the Greek bail-out. I tabled questions on that, but I present course of events. On 10 May, I wrote to the have received no satisfactory answers. They appear to Prime Minister regarding those fundamental matters in have been thrust under the carpet, despite exposing the the context of his pending negotiations for the coalition fact that the UK taxpayer has been saddled with about agreement. He replied on 21 June. £12 billion of commitments. That is against the background 73WH UK Parliamentary Sovereignty 15 JUNE 2010 UK Parliamentary Sovereignty 74WH and the EU and the EU of the current Government debt and deficit, which is obligation—a costly mistake, which has to be reversed. second only to Greece. It is compounded by our being Even the noble Lord Mandelson stated—as did his the second greatest contributor to the European Union, fellow EU Commissioner Mr Verheugen—that the over- with costs rising to £6.6 billion for 2010-11. According regulation that so undermines EU and UK competitiveness, to the TaxPayers Alliance, the European Union costs with China and India for example, amounts to as much individual British taxpayers £2,000 each per annum, as 4% of GDP. Indeed, we heard yesterday that the which they certainly cannot afford. In the context of that noble Lord Young of Graffham will lead a review of broad landscape, I have to ask what it is in return for. health and safety legislation. I trust that that review will Furthermore, there is the proposed European tax on recognise that so much of this damaging legislation—some our financial services sector, which infringes the sovereign of which is necessary—comes from the European Union, right of taxation of the UK Parliament, not to mention and particularly from the powers made under the so-called the European regulation of the City of London, about precautionary principle, which bypasses judicial review which I have written in the Financial Times on many and is used by the Court of Justice. That principle will occasions over the past few years, and spoken in the need to be overridden—as will so many other laws—under House. That tax is again by majority vote, and the the sovereignty Act that I propose. That same principle jurisdiction—as with all European legislation—is with applies in the fields of environmental and consumer the European Court of Justice over and above the Bank protection law, and it is therefore pervasive. of England and/or the Financial Services Authority. Kelvin Hopkins: I apologise for interrupting the hon. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman’s flow yet again, but he made a point about Gentleman talks about the costs of the European Union. competitiveness. There might be many differences between Does he accept that other additional costs go beyond the two of us on economics, but had Britain been a those that he has mentioned? Because of the European member of the eurozone we would not have been able to Union, economic growth has been slower than it would depreciate and our competiveness, compared with India otherwise have been. If one adds up the cumulative loss and China, would have been even worse. of growth over 30 years or more, it represents a considerable cost to Britain. Additionally, there is the higher cost of food which is a result of being a member of the common Mr Cash: I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman is, agricultural policy. as ever, slightly ahead of my curve, but I now move on to the next point. Mr Cash: I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for his We hear from the Prime Minister that we want the consistent, persistent predictions, all of which have eurozone to be stable. I have argued for many years that proved to be right, even if he and I may differ as to what an imploding European Union is not in our national use we would make of the sovereignty if it were reclaimed. interest. I have been saying that for 20 years; I thought The right hon. Peter Shore became a good friend of that it would occur, and it has. What has been needed is mine, and during the Maastricht debates, he and I a realignment of European institutions and Europe debated issues of the kind raised by the hon. Gentleman. itself into an association of nation states, precisely to We can honestly say that we did our best and that what avoid the implosion that is taking place. Only a few we demonstrated has occurred. months ago, the Prime Minister himself referred to the The hon. Gentleman’s point about costs raises the desirability of our forming ourselves into an association question of over-regulation and competition. Professor of member states, which I take to be much the same Roland Vaubel of Mannheim university has written on idea. that matter, calling it a form of “regulatory collusion” The Lisbon agenda has failed. I railed against the between the Governments of the member states, with stability and growth pact in 1996, when the now Lord member states using majority voting to create competitive Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice, my right advantage. Vaubel shows that regulation is explicitly hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe used as a means of raising rivals’ costs. People must (Mr Clarke), was Chancellor of the Exchequer. I wrote take that seriously. That is what is going on; it is a form to Members of Parliament in reply to his letter, indicating of warfare—as Clausewitz would have said, “War by that I did not think that the pact could work. It has any other means”. Indeed, Germany followed that model, failed, and with it, the rule of law. Yet, here they are: I led by Prussia in a majority coalition after 1871. As heard Madame Lagarde only yesterday talking about with so much of what goes on today, much has already bringing it back again, as if experience cannot be seen happened in the creation of modern Germany. for what it is. Experience, in my judgment, crushes There is also the problem of over-regulation calculated hope. by the British Chambers of Commerce in its “Burdens The common agricultural policy, the common fisheries Barometer”, written by Tim Ambler and Francis policy and the EUROSTAT statistical system have all Chittenden. It shows that in both the United Kingdom failed. I believe that the latter is at the heart of the and Europe, 70% of over-regulation comes from the problem in relation to—let us put it bluntly—the lies European Union, which since 1998 has cost the British that were told about the Greek economy. EU origin economy £76.8 billion. marking causes enormous damage to the third world, One of the most invasive legal obligations is the as the committee of my right hon. Friend the Member working time directive, which came through the Single for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) demonstrated European Act. Despite my warnings to the then the other day. We had an interesting analysis from the Government, that directive was misleadingly included global governance commission in Washington, which in a declaration in that Act, which the Court of Justice emphasised over and over that the EU origin marking subsequently ruled, as I had expected, as a legal system was one of the major problems for the third world. 75WH UK Parliamentary Sovereignty 15 JUNE 2010 UK Parliamentary Sovereignty 76WH and the EU and the EU [Mr Cash] because it is essentially undemocratic and authoritarian, which is dangerous, as both German and Greek There is endemic fraud. The Maastricht deficit criteria commentators agreed only yesterday. And it is not only of 3% is nothing short of a joke, with massively seriously one or two commentators; that view is becoming endemic consequences for the voters in this country and throughout and demonstrable. Europe, who are subjected to bungled economic The whole of Europe is trembling and action is management, and massively increasing debt, with the needed now. There are those, such as Ambrose Evans- hidden costs of up to £3.1 trillion——in our own case Pritchard of The Daily Telegraph, Martin Wolf and in real terms—which cannot be swept away. The budget Ralph Atkins of the Financial Times, Walter Munchau, deficit proposals of £6 billion are a mere sop in relation Stephen Glover, Andrew Alexander and a growing band to the mismanagement that is coming through Europe of Euro-realist Members of Parliament who are beginning and affecting our economy as well, and we will not to speak out, and many who have done so over many convince the bond markets or the rating agencies, which years. In Holland, the general election left its message determine our ratings in the global marketplace. on the table—in France and Germany, the same. Across As I have said, we were told by the Prime Minister the entire breadth of the continent, in Italy, Greece, that we need a strong eurozone, because 50% of our Romania and Bulgaria, in the referendums that have trade is with that zone. However, the eurozone is imploding, taken place and in the ditching of the constitutional and Angela Merkel and 68% of the German people are treaty, which was then supplanted by the Lisbon treaty— opposed to the Greek bail-out, precisely because the virtually the same thing—people are disillusioned with whole economic and political structure of the European the European Union and demand change and action, Union does not work. yet we are still presented with a policy of further enlargement, against which I have argued for many Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I years. In the leader in today’s Financial Times we hear thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way again, in this more about Europe’s debt crisis. It states: very timely debate. I am listening with great interest to “Europe’s sovereign debt worries have prompted parallels him analysing the situation, both within and without to…2008”, the eurozone. Does he agree with me that if we do not and move now and grasp the nettle—as he has accurately “crisis management is not the same as crisis resolution.” said we should—one of the political problems will be the rise of the far right across Europe, which preys on On enlargement, only last week The Spectator devoted the very fears and concerns that we all know are out its leader to the proposal for Turkish accession. It is there, and which we have seen emerge from time to time clear that Turkey is moving towards accession, and on in various nation states? both economic and political grounds it should not be regarded as a prospective member of the club, given its Mr Cash: I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman, current dealings with Syria, Iran and the middle east. and in my essay in “Visions of Europe” in 1993 I said As is so often the case in the political and economic exactly that—that that would be the consequence of the sphere, the problem with enlargement is that European lawlessness that would follow. The problem is that it is Union policies, once espoused, are deemed irreversible. not good enough to wring our hands and say, “Oh well, Just when decentralisation and democracy—listening we’d like this to be better,” or “We’re going to go along to the people and involving them and the big society in with it.” We have to have a radical policy based on our Government—have become so essential, the institutions proper analysis. I wait to hear what my hon. Friend the and governmental establishments of the European Union Minister says, but I cannot believe that he could seriously and each of the member states career ever more wildly disagree with anything I have said. These are factual into crisis. questions. If it is just a matter of culture or attitude: Recently, we have had the experience of the European “Oh well, we want to be good Europeans,” or “We don’t arrest warrant. The absorption of our criminal justice want to face up to these things,” or “People such as Bill system is yet another area of deep concern. Under a Cash are just Europhobes who go around ranting about European arrest warrant, Mr Arapi, a British resident Europe and banging on”— from Leek, in Staffordshire, was convicted in his absence and sentenced to 15 years. We have the inconceivable Mr Keith Simpson (Broadland) (Con): No. and unacceptable vision of a British judge ordering Mr Arapi’s extradition, when there is apparently Mr Cash: I am glad that my hon. Friend has made the overwhelming evidence that he was not where he was inevitable harrumph, but the matter needs to be taken said to have been when he was supposed to have committed extremely seriously. Europe does not work as it is now a murder in Italy. The whole project is flawed from devised; it is pre-eminently a practical matter. It is no beginning to end and must be radically reformed, or else. good our being committed to a eurozone that is so I turn now to the European Scrutiny Committee. undermined by its own institutional inadequacies and Parliament has a system for dealing with many of the contradictions, by the diversity of its different economies, problems that I have outlined or, at any rate, for alerting and by the real requirements of the voters and the Members of Parliament to what is going on. I regret to business community in each country. Is it all so difficult, say that the Committee is still not sitting, despite the complicated and entrenched that nothing can be done, fact that Parliament has now been back for a couple of or do we roll up our sleeves and get down to resolving weeks. I have been on the Committee for 26 years, it? I suggest that at the summit this week we at least sometimes in adverse circumstances; it has been difficult start to get serious about the nature of the problem. to be heard, let alone listened to and certainly agreed Europe does not work, not only because of over-regulation with, despite much evidence. While in opposition in the and the irreversibility of the acquis communautaire, but last two years of the previous Parliament, the Conservative 77WH UK Parliamentary Sovereignty 15 JUNE 2010 UK Parliamentary Sovereignty 78WH and the EU and the EU party achieved remarkable unity on the European issue formed)…why would a minority member state cast a vote against and the Lisbon treaty, barring just one vote on the the majority knowing it is doom to lose anyway, unless it wants to sovereignty of the United Kingdom. make public its disagreement. Therefore, most of the time, formal votes at the Council level merely represent the tip of the iceberg of Although the manner in which Parliament deals with the coalition-building and decision-making process.” European legislation has been subjected to a number of Given that the enormous matters we are discussing improvements, we have not gone far enough. Indeed, affect the entire British economy in one form or other, the present Home Secretary made some significant and given what is at stake, only some of which I have proposals for reforming European scrutiny. She agreed indicated, it is inconceivable that there should be such to adopt my proposal that if the European Scrutiny incredible problems in the fault-lines of the system that Committee recommends a European matter for debate, has been devised. Once again, the issue needs to be and 150 Members of Parliament propose that it is a taken extremely seriously, but I wonder whether it will matter of national interest, it should be subjected to a be. If it is not, there will be difficulties of a kind that I free vote on the Floor of the House—I say “vote”, not do not need to specify. “take-note motion”, because that is one of the problems. She also proposed that the Committee meet in public, The Back-Bench business committee proposals, which as many of us have advocated for some time. After the will come before the House this afternoon, do not issue was finally voted on by the Committee, it was include European documents, although the proposals abandoned, and it must be revived. would not seem to preclude votes on European affairs, unless such matters were taken only in Westminster In my 26 years on the Committee, the establishment Hall, and that highly contentious question will no doubt and the Government of the United Kingdom have be debated this afternoon. We therefore have debates on always ensured that there is a majority in favour of European matters without votes, on a take-note basis. European proposals that emanate from Brussels. Matters Much business is conducted behind the scenes in Brussels may be recommended for debate in a European Standing by the United Kingdom Permanent Representation to Committee—sometimes by a majority vote—but no the European Union and COREPER, using their own vote in such a Committee ever goes against the Government. arcane procedures. It is conducted within and parallel If one ever does, it is immediately reversed on the Floor to the European establishment and it is intertwined of the House as being inconsistent with the European with it. Why and how can that be allowed to continue? Communities Act 1972. That is no way to proceed. Not one vote has ever gone against Brussels legislation in my Not only is most business conducted behind closed 26 years on the Committee. Only last week, a Cabinet doors, but the majority voting system itself is not Office Minister indicated that there were no proposals transparent. More often than not, we do not even know for a sovereignty Act to alter that disgraceful state of which way the UK will have voted or whether it will affairs. have deliberately abstained—we know a bit more about the German situation—to acquiesce in or even appease That is how the European Scrutiny Committee functions. the European institutional consensus. At the same time, I have been on it long enough to know that not one the UK Parliament, and therefore the British people, single vote on any European legislation that has been are bypassed and stitched up. through a European Standing Committee on the recommendation of my Committee has ever been passed Recent events relating to the 1922 committee concern on the Floor of the House, and I challenge anyone to the independence of Conservative Back Benchers, but come forward with an example. We have take-note the same applies to the parliamentary Labour party. It motions, Adjournment debates and general European is essential that those of us on the Back Benches have affairs debates, but we do not have votes on seminal systems, mechanisms and procedures that can act as a matters of the kind I have described. safety valve. We do not necessarily want those things Whatever the merits of the national interest, which I because we want to act in a hostile manner or to be have already described, it is vital to create a requirement, difficult or awkward, but because there is an alternative set out by our Prime Minister in 2005 when he referred view, and expressing it is part of our freedom of speech to an imperative requirement to achieve competitiveness and vitally affects the interests of those who vote us into in the British economy.The European Scrutiny Committee this place. is called in for debates, but issues are not voted on, The BBC has consistently declined to give proper which makes the process intrinsically futile. The Committee coverage to the European issue and has adopted that is important, but it must be reformed and improved, policy with tenacity and editorial contrivance since the although improvements are taking place. 1950s, as has been well documented. Anyone who raises The Committee has the power to impose a scrutiny serious and seminal questions about the European issue— reserve while debates take place, but it is sometimes most of their predictions have turned out to be true—tends overridden out of what is described as urgent necessity. to be regarded as Europhobic or worse. In any case, such measures merely hold down the European What can now be said with certainty is that, as we juggernaut for the time being, and there is no resistance speak, our economy, our democracy and our constitution whatever to majority votes in the Council of Ministers are on the line. This week, the summit will discuss being imposed on the UK Parliament. A work by proposals for our Budget to be presented to the European Sanoussi Bilal and Madeleine Hosli states what some of institutions before our Parliament sees it. There may be us know already, although it is worth recording. They attempts to create some obscurantist device, perception say that in the EU, or spin to make it look as if these things are not really “a major difficulty arises from the lack of transparency of the happening or that they are all happening under the decision-making process. In particular, decisions by the Council aegis of the majority vote. At last, however, the penny seldom result in a formal vote, but are rather taken by consensus has begun to drop. The mask is being stripped away. (or without a vote when no obvious blocking minority has Our national interest is at stake, and the need for 79WH UK Parliamentary Sovereignty 15 JUNE 2010 UK Parliamentary Sovereignty 80WH and the EU and the EU [Mr Cash] entity with many historical and cultural links. The European Union is an invention of humankind, imposing political will to reaffirm the sovereignty of the British a political structure on many of the nations of Europe, people through their representative Parliament has become but it is not Europe itself. Although I may be accused of paramount in the national interest, as is there for all being a Europhobe I genuinely love Europe. I am culturally to see. European. Clearly, Britain is European. I love European This critical summit is the time for us and the European music, languages and literature. I love and enjoy everything Union to face up to action and reality. Let us put our about Europe, but I do not approve of the European commitment to a sovereignty Act on the table this Union. week. Let negotiations commence between all 27 member states for a voluntary association of nation states to get Mr Cash: In relation to art, music and culture, and in out of the mess that exists, which will get worse. Even every other way, I endorse what the hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister has recently put forward the idea of says 100 per cent. an association of member states. If that falls on deaf ears at the European Council, let those member states Kelvin Hopkins: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that who want to, including Germany and France, use the positive intervention. In a few weeks I shall be sojourning enhanced co-operation procedure for a fiscal and political in Provence, sampling wonderful European wine, listening union—a new Zollverein with a new treaty—with a to music and so on. Europe is a wonderful place, but the referendum here in Britain on the proposals; for they European Union is deeply flawed. will affect us in a fundamental change in our relationship The hon. Gentleman has said that even this week the with the European Union. We can remain with other European Union is trying to interfere and to impose its like-minded states in an associated status within the will on Britain’s decisions about its budgetary situation amended European arrangements, as I proposed in my and economic policies. That was reported yesterday in pamphlet of 2000 called, in deference to Churchill’s the Evening Standard, so it is not going away. I hope and time-honoured phrase, “Associated, Not Absorbed”. trust that the new Government will tell the European 10.10 am Union in no uncertain terms that decisions about our Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): May I say first budgetary and economic policies will be decided by what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship the British Government, who will be accountable to the this morning, Mr. Streeter, and secondly may I convey British Parliament, and will not be determined by the my sympathy to the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) European Union. Perhaps the EU is under the illusion on his bereavement? I congratulate the hon. Gentleman that it can manage Britain as well as it has managed the on raising this important debate. I thought it important eurozone. That would lead us pretty much into disaster. to come along and put a democratic socialist perspective, While I am on the question of the European Union’s arriving at the same conclusions from a different perspective recent policies, I shall mention enlargement. It is interesting on the European Union. that the hon. Gentleman mentioned Edward Heath. I This is a critical time in the development of the listened to one of his last speeches to Parliament before European Union and in Britain’s history. The European he retired 10 years ago, and he made a strong point to Union and, indeed, Britain, are suffering severe economic the effect that enlargement would not work. He was difficulties. The eurozone is in crisis and the plans of the against it. I do not speak for or against it today, but extreme federalists are unravelling before our eyes. That Edward Heath was strongly opposed to it because he is a welcome movement, and is happening not before thought that a European Union covering more than the time. It is possible that Germany may be in the process developed nations of western Europe would not work. of re-establishing the Deutschmark, or a Deutschmark He wanted a deeper and stronger European Union, area. It has great difficulty in doing that, because it is so possibly with a single currency, but he believed that it exposed to other member states of the European Union, could not work if it were to be widely enlarged. One of which have great economic difficulties, but that shows the reasons I have supported enlargement is that I the folly of imposing a single currency on different believed it could weaken the European Union. That economies, with different levels of economic success. It may be a cynical view but I thought that over time does not work and on many occasions elsewhere it has people would realise that ramming countries or nation been proved not to work. states together in that way would not ultimately work. Therefore I have gone along with enlargement. I think it The peoples of Europe are deeply sceptical about the is a way of ensuring that in the end people come to their European Union and the direction that it has taken. senses. The danger, as the hon. Gentleman said, is that there could be a rise in nationalism as a reaction. Such a I am not against international alliances or co-operative reaction results from the fact that the peoples are not relationships with all our neighbours. Indeed, those are listened to. The opposition to much of what the European vital. I am sure that everyone would be in favour of Union has been doing recently comes from the left. The those things if they were based on democratic Governments referendum in France was won—that is the sense in agreeing to work together for mutual benefit on behalf which I see it—by people of the left. The left was also in of their peoples. That is what the European Union the lead in the Dutch referendum. Even to go back to should become, in my view. We must stop the drive the Swedish referendum on joining the euro, which was towards a federal Europe now, retain what sovereignty another substantial no vote, it was the left—trade unionists, we have, and begin to roll things back: the EU and what socialists and social democrats—who pressed that case. it has taken over from Britain and other member states. Over and again I have to point out that, although we I have often mentioned my concern about the common keep talking about Europe, we are discussing not Europe fisheries policy, which is completely barmy. I think that but the European Union. Europe is a geographical Edward Heath decided at the last minute that we should 81WH UK Parliamentary Sovereignty 15 JUNE 2010 UK Parliamentary Sovereignty 82WH and the EU and the EU go into that, but it has been disastrous. Some of the of serious disorder if things are not made democratic. If biggest fisheries in Europe are Britain’s, and the EU the Germans and the Greeks can decide their future, so itself has reported, in the past week or two, that 30 per can we. Although we have friendly relations with other cent. of fish stocks are at the point of collapse, and all member states, if we rather than the European Commission fisheries are being overfished. The only way to overcome and the European Union were able to decide our future, that is for fisheries to be restored to member states, everyone would be a lot happier. The danger of extreme which will then have the sense of ownership and politics would go. responsibility for managing the areas in question. Then fish stocks can start to recover. Reforms have taken Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): I place and there are non-fishing areas, but it will not am listening carefully to my hon. Friend, and I share work until member states take over responsibility for most of his views. Does he agree that one of the their historic fisheries and husband them as they did in mistakes made by our trade union and labour movement—it the past. was a historic and democratic mistake—was to be The costs of agriculture are enormous and every persuaded by Delors that we could more easily get a member state in the European Union has its own approach. shift to the left and more trade union rights via the back Some are more agricultural than others. We are one of door of the European Union, then the Common Market, the most efficient agricultural nations, but that is only a than by winning the argument in this country? small part of our economy. Other countries are overwhelmed by agricultural costs and inefficient, small- Kelvin Hopkins: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. scale agriculture, but it is up to those member states to The fear was that the only way to roll back what was manage their own agriculture. If we need to transfer then described as Thatcherism was by going along with revenues between member states that can be done on a the European Union. The TUC flip-flopped right over voluntary basis, and if poorer states need to be sustained from being critical and sceptical about Europe to being by richer states perhaps fiscal transfers can take care of enthusiastic. Subsequently, however, judgments have that. The common agricultural policy distorts the whole been made by the European Court against trade unions of agriculture and operates in an inequitable way. Some and in favour of employers, because it thinks that they member states pay more than they should and some interfere with how the market should operate. The trade receive more than they should, in a way that bears little unions, and even John Monks, a great enthusiast for the relationship to their relative wealth. We should start to European Union, are becoming more sceptical. roll back agricultural policy. Mr Cash: May I mention again the extremely important I hope that the Government will give notice that we paper written by Professor Roland Vaubel of Manheim want to return to a world in which member states university on the raising of rivals’ costs? Much of that is manage their own fisheries—an abandonment of the to do with labour regulation. I shall give the hon. common fisheries policy. If other member states or the Gentleman a copy, as it demonstrates how regulatory European Union refuse, Britain should give notice that, collusion can create disadvantages for certain countries. after a period, we would re-establish control of our historic fishing grounds. I hope that that would put Kelvin Hopkins: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that. sufficient pressure on the EU to make some sense of it. I take a slightly different view on some of these things The real question is one of democracy—of whether because I think that trade union rights should be decided the populations of the various member states have though the democratic governance of member states. control of their own destinies and can choose to be free International involvement comes though the market capitalist or democratic socialist countries. I International Labour Organisation, with its minimum have campaigned all my life for a democratic socialist standards for labour regulation. That is where we should Britain, and I do not want that possibility to be taken stand, but we fall below those standards. I want us to away by EU bureaucrats. Equally, some want to see a move forward and restore trade union and worker more free market capitalist world in Britain. We will not rights at least to the ILO standards, in many ways going want bureaucrats in Brussels telling us that we cannot back to the sort of regime we had in the past. That do things if the people of Britain have chosen to go in would not be agreeable to the Government, no doubt; those directions. It is about democracy. One of the great and other countries, too, might choose another approach. advantages of our system of government is that when However, that is the approach that I would like to see, the population gets fed up with the Government or do and I would like to see it voted on by the working not like what they are doing, it can kick them out and people of Britain, who I hope would support the election put in another Government with a different view. The of a Labour Government committed to re-establishing essence of democracy is a real choice of policy in how trade union and worker rights. It is another example of people are governed. democracy. I do not want to see the European Union British economic policy should be decided by British telling me or other trade unionists or socialists that we Governments that are elected by the British electorate. cannot legislate in a particular way. We should decide As and when we need to co-operate with other member our trade union rights, not the EU. states and other nations, we should do so on a The EU and its ultra-federalists have over-reached democratically agreed basis. I am sure that that would themselves. It is time to roll back the EU, and restore be most agreeable to everyone, as well as being beneficial. sovereignty and democracy to member states. Member It would also help us resist the tendency to nationalism. states may choose to go down a socialist road or a If people become frustrated about the EU and the lack non-socialist road, but the direction should be down to of democracy, they may turn to other forms of politics, them and to their electorates and peoples. I congratulate some of which would be much more unpleasant—one the hon. Gentleman on raising this important subject, such is nationalism—and there is talk, even in Germany, and I hope that my brief comments are helpful. 83WH UK Parliamentary Sovereignty 15 JUNE 2010 UK Parliamentary Sovereignty 84WH and the EU and the EU 10.25 am speech. That was not a rabid anti-European Community measure, or the Common Market as it was then called, Mr Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): I but a speech made in the absence of knowing what this apologise, Mr Streeter, for having missed the opening of would lead to—cautious, intelligent and well worth the debate and the remarks of my hon. Friend the reading today. Member for Stone (Mr Cash). Why have the two generations who have run our I see this debate as being divided into two sections. public policy pursued a policy that undermines the very Sovereignty of Parliament is questioned—indeed, sense of sovereignty of the British people, and done so threatened—by the development of the European Union. often contrary to the wishes of the parties—it destroyed That may be so if custom and usage has a part in it; Major—and the people, as regularly diagnosed by public sovereignty of Parliament is the profound constitutional opinion polls? Those who make the laws are accountable. doctrine that has determined the course of our development That is what self-government is about in a democratic over nearly three centuries. I do not see that concept age. They are accountable to the people, in our instance; being threatened for as long as the judges apply it. hence, I call it the sovereignty of the people. What in The conflict that arises with the European Union is those relationships makes the European Union, to which entirely of Parliament’s making. If there is a conflict, it we have outsourced the making of our laws, accountable is because Parliament assents to each and every dreadful to the British people? Of course it is not accountable, transfer of powers—powers of initiation, and powers of nor was it ever intended to be. The biography of Edward legislation—to the EU. The conflict lies with Parliament Heath was mentioned; his regard for the wholehearted asserting—contrary, I would argue, to the will of the consent of the British people was contemptuously people—that all these transfers and mechanisms used disregarded. It took Mr Wilson and a split Labour by the EU are appropriate. That will doubtless be the Cabinet to give a “sort of” referendum to the British Government’s position today; they will fudge along, people on something of which Mr Gaitskell would have arguing that we are, of course, taking strong measures said, “We do not know where this leads”. And we did to protect our sovereignty. However, there is no need to not know where it led. protect our sovereignty if we in Parliament are clear I praise my hon. Friend the Member for Stone for about its relationship with the people. initiating this wide-reaching debate about where we are I have argued during my time as a Member of the and the significance of what we should be. I stand, as House of Commons that it is not the sovereignty of does my hon. Friend, for the British people in this Parliament in the current age but the sovereignty of the argument. In the end, those who give cast-iron guarantees British people that matters, and that for as long as on referendums, or otherwise, destroy faith and trust in Governments are not prepared to refer the issues involved themselves and in our system. This debate gives us a in that concept to the people themselves, then the way forward to show that our political parties believe in question of legitimacy arises. Those are the issues that I their people, their nation and the trust conferred when think thread through the problem. they make a pledge. Anyone who has experienced modern British government knows the tyranny of the majority; the sovereignty of 10.33 am Parliament can indeed assert itself and, as a raw concept, Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): It is a great pleasure be a great tyranny. Instead of the old traditions, with to see you chairing the debate, Mr Streeter. Following Governments attempting to win arguments to pursue the contributions this morning, I think the Minister and their policies, they now resort to sheer, simple, I will be the more pro-European contributors, which is straightforward majoritarianism. It is evidenced, of course, perhaps ironic. I congratulate the hon. Member for in the proceedings of the House, where guillotines are Stone (Mr Cash) on securing the debate and on his the order of the day. No one can say, in a proper and consistency, constancy and determination. I am sure he reliable sense, that the sovereignty of Parliament rests will apply as much rigour to his scrutiny of the new upon consent, in the sense that due and proper process, Minister for Europe as he did to that of the previous the seeking of an argument and the ability to develop one; indeed, if anything I suspect his scrutiny will an argument, is scrupulously observed by Parliament. increase slightly. I am sure he will look forward to that. In respect of the European Union, one speech on I, too, pass on my condolences to the hon. Gentleman; what was happening was perhaps the best that I ever he spoke movingly about his father and mother. Many heard. Leaving aside all the manoeuvrings, it was an of the positions we adopt on European matters spring observation made on 28 February 1992, when I was not only from an intellectual position but from an moving my Referendum Bill on Maastricht, that it was emotive argument that has sustained itself in our hearts. incredible that what will now be two generations of I do not say it is a bad thing, but an entirely laudable those who had run our country’s affairs were prepared one. to surrender that thing which this island, this nation, One area on which I agree with the hon. Gentleman had believed was among its crown jewels—self-government. is European scrutiny: we still do not do it properly—not That is what this conflict is about. only in this House but across Parliament. It tends to be In my lifetime, Governments of both parties have, done by a very small number of people who could since the referendum, pursued the giving away of whole perhaps be described as obsessives or anoraks—I include areas of self-government. The hon. Member for Luton the hon. Gentleman, my hon. Friend the Member for North (Kelvin Hopkins) referred to the right of others Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) and myself in that to determine our employment laws and the relationship category—and we need to find a means of doing it with the trade union movement. Such matters were better. The hon. Gentleman is right: we rarely vote on brought up by Peter Shore, whom we remember as the European matters and that ought to change. I have author of Gaitskill’s “a thousand years of history” never understood why European affairs debates have to 85WH UK Parliamentary Sovereignty 15 JUNE 2010 UK Parliamentary Sovereignty 86WH and the EU and the EU be on the motion for the Adjournment or a general same might be true of Croatia and the other countries debate. I do not know why they cannot be on a substantive we hope will become members of the European Union motion before the House, which might encourage the in the near future, such as the western Balkan countries. Whips to take a greater interest in ensuring that more We want them to join, but I suspect that the Government people attend such debates, and might extend the range want a derogation so that those nationals cannot enjoy of issues that we discuss. The focus is often narrow—on freedom of employment in the UK from day one; what is going on in the European Union—rather than perhaps the Minister will clarify that point later. broad. Likewise, I have always considered the operation of My hon. Friend the Member for Luton North and I the common agricultural policy immoral in many ways, both nominated the same person for leadership of our as other countries are unable to compete because we party, but we may end up voting for different candidates. subsidise so much. At the same time, if there was not a I say gently that I also believe in democratic socialism, common agricultural policy there would be a French, but I do not believe that it can be built in one country Italian, German or Greek one, which could be considerably alone. We have to strive for it internationally, because worse. There is a constant clash at the heart of Europe the rights and principles that one adheres to apply between subsidiarity and collective action, and now is a to all. key moment in European politics to decide how to reconcile such issues. I suspect that such a reconciliation Kelvin Hopkins: The candidate that my hon. Friend will happen at a dinner on Wednesday evening when and I nominated is a Eurosceptic. Angela Merkel and President Sarkozy meet up. Let me say gently to the Minister that I hope he ends up joining Chris Bryant: Which shows what a generous soul I the European People’s party, because it is easier to do am. business sitting at the table when the decisions are being It is good to see the hon. Member for Aldridge- made, rather than waiting for the moment after the Brownhills (Mr Shepherd) in his place. He pointed out decisions have been made by the big players. that Parliament consistently assents to such measures, The hon. Member for Stone did not refer much to his which relates to the point I made earlier about the or the Government’s sovereignty of Parliament Bill. I European Union and scrutiny in this House. Parliament have expressed views on the matter before, so I will not assented originally in the European Communities Act bore the Chamber with them again. Suffice it to say that 1972, and we continue to assent every time we choose it will either mean nothing because Parliament is already not to have a vote, and every time we choose to do so sovereign—it could, if it wanted to, withdraw from the and vote in favour. In a sense, therefore, the nub of the European Communities Act 1972, it could repeal the question about sovereignty is rather different. Act or decide that the legislation no longer applies—or it will mean something, in which case this House can Mr Cash: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? say, “We don’t care what has been decided through the co-decision process; we simply disagree.” It could say, “I Chris Bryant: If the hon. Gentleman does not mind I don’t care whether the Government have signed up to it; will not give way, which means I will shut up sooner. He we disagree and we are going to strike down that spoke for some time and we want to hear from the new legislation.” Such a move, however, is potentially very Minister. dangerous because it puts us on course for leaving the Union. There are some significant paradoxes and problems facing the Union. We all rightly fight for fiscal autonomy I have a few questions for the Minister. He told us for each of the member states, but also know that we are that there will be a new Europe Committee—a Cabinet economically interdependent. If the euro collapsed it Sub-Committee. Has it met yet and is it to meet in would be bad for the British economy, not least because public? It will be fascinating to see the Deputy Prime to all intents and purposes, in many regards we are Minister and the Foreign Secretary publicly debating Europe’s banker. We want the rest of Europe to shoulder Europe. Will the Committee include Members from the more of the security burden around the world, particularly devolved Administrations in Wales, Northern Ireland in Afghanistan. At the same time, the only way we can and Scotland? Some of the issues that come up at such achieve that is by cajoling and persuading. We want meetings are devolved responsibilities, so there might be Europe to punch its weight in relation to the emerging a particular value in including those Members. I have economies—Brazil, Russia, India, China and so on—but similar questions about the committee on parliamentary we rely on self-discipline to achieve that and often, sovereignty. Who will chair it and who will be on it? self-discipline does not work when Russia holds out its When will it meet and what resources will it have? Will it paw with an enormous financial offer. effectively be a parliamentary commission, and if not how will it conduct its business; and when will it complete We want better protection—for instance, for British its work? Finally, what is its precise position on whether people who have chosen to live in Spain and whose Britain and countries outside the euro should be required houses are being pulled down—but we are not prepared to present their budgets to the Commission? It seems to ensure that Europe has the enforcement powers when bizarre that the European Union or the Commission—in rights are not being protected. We want better EU whatever format—should be able to have sight of a regulations so that financial services organisations in British Budget before the British Parliament. Cyprus, for instance, do a better and more legitimate job, but at the same time we want to ensure the autonomy 10.43 am of the UK financial services industry. We want Romania and Bulgaria to be members of the Union, but at the The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): I moment I can see no prospect of allowing Romanians congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stone and Bulgarians to work in the UK. I suspect that the (Mr Cash) on securing this debate, and also express my 87WH UK Parliamentary Sovereignty 15 JUNE 2010 UK Parliamentary Sovereignty 88WH and the EU and the EU [Mr David Lidington] come to a view as to whether we should introduce primary legislation to reinforce the principle of sincere condolences to him on the recent death of his parliamentary sovereignty. So far, as he knows, the mother. He clearly set out his views on sovereignty. In British courts have upheld the principle of parliamentary the last Parliament, he championed the United Kingdom sovereignty. We want to ensure that such a principle is Parliamentary Sovereignty Bill to allow for further debate unassailable and ongoing. and consideration of such matters. As my hon. Friend knows, the Government are now considering a United Chris Bryant: Before the Minister’s speech, we were Kingdom sovereignty Bill, and the programme for told by the Government that a committee will be set up government agreed by both parties in the coalition to do such work. Now, however, he seems to be saying states: that there will not be a committee, but just a general “We will examine the case for a Bill to make it clear that process of cogitation, regurgitation and general thinking. ultimate authority remains with Parliament.” Does he describe that as the backburner or the long As my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills grass? (Mr Shepherd) pointed out, the common law is clear; Parliament is sovereign. European Union law takes Mr Lidington: It is certainly not the long grass. The effect in this country only by virtue of an Act of work has already started, but it requires proper Parliament. The European Communities Act 1972 states consideration. I understand the hon. Gentleman’s that European Union law should have primacy. That impatience and eagerness for an outcome to this exercise, means national laws, including Acts of Parliament, but given that we are only a month into the new must be interpreted in such a way as to comply with EU Administration, he will have to bear with us a little rules. Where the two are incompatible, UK law is disapplied. longer before we come to a conclusion. I can assure him The 1972 Act, therefore, gives EU law primacy over UK that as soon as a decision is taken, we will make a law for so long as that Act remains in force. However, as statement to Parliament, so that he and other hon. successive Governments and the courts have recognised, Members can question and challenge us on the outcome such measures do not impact on sovereignty, because it of that debate within Government. is always open to Parliament to amend or repeal an Act; it is Parliament’s choice that EU law has primacy, and it The Government have been clear about what we can, if it chooses, change its mind. I do not want to intend to propose in legislation at the earliest opportunity. underplay the enormous political consequences that We have agreed that there should be no further transfer would flow from such a decision, but those are the of sovereignty or powers from the United Kingdom to constitutional facts, and they were confirmed in the the EU over the course of this Parliament, and that most trenchant language in the metric martyrs’ case in commitment is written into the coalition programme. 2002 when the courts ruled that The Government are also committed to increasing “Parliament cannot bind its successors by stipulating against democratic and parliamentary control, scrutiny and repeal, wholly or partly, of the [1972 Act]…there is nothing in the accountability in relation to EU decision-making. We [1972 Act] which allows the Court of Justice, or any other will introduce a Bill to ensure that the British Parliament institutions of the EU, to touch or qualify the conditions of and the British people have more of a say, and that will Parliament’s legislative supremacy in the United Kingdom. Not increase the democratic accountability of the European because the legislature chose not to allow it; because by our law it Union. The Bill that was listed in the Gracious Speech could not allow it…being sovereign, it cannot abandon its sovereignty.” has two main elements: a referendum lock and greater The Government are now exploring how they can ensure parliamentary control over the use of the so-called that the fundamental principle of parliamentary sovereignty passerelle or ratchet clauses in the Lisbon treaty. is upheld. They want to assess whether the common law provides sufficient ongoing and unassailable protection Let me describe briefly what we propose in terms of a for that principle. It is an important process, and it is referendum lock, although my hon. Friend the Member only right that sufficient time is allowed for discussions for Stone and the House will appreciate that very detailed within Government and for appropriate advice to be work is now going on to determine the precise language taken. Once the Government have decided on whether of the Bill. Any proposed future treaty that transferred there should be a Bill to reinforce the principle of competences or areas of power from the UK to the EU parliamentary sovereignty, we will make an appropriate would be subject to a referendum. No Government statement to the House. would be able to pass more powers to the EU unless the British people had agreed that they should be able to do Mr Cash: My hon. Friend the Minister will know so and no Government would be able to join the euro that I have spoken on both this subject and the metric unless the British people had agreed that they should do martyrs’ case on many occasions. Does he not accept so. that we voted against the Lisbon treaty, which is a My hon. Friend said that there might be an attempt consolidating treaty and incorporates all the treaties? In to bring about treaty change to create some form of addition to that, the issue of primacy is already clearly economic governance in light of the current financial stated in Costa v. ENEL and in other cases. They say crisis. I can say to him that there is no consensus so far that the European Court of Justice asserts its primacy even in the euro area that there should be a further over our constitution. I hope that the Minister will treaty. Any EU treaty, even one that applied only to the come on to that, because that is where a big problem euro area, would need the unanimous agreement of all starts to get even worse. 27 member states, including the UK. Each of those Mr Lidington: My hon. Friend will have to forgive me 27 member states would have a veto. Even in the case of if I say that the kind of questions that he asks are a hypothetical treaty that the British Government were precisely those that the Government will wish to consider prepared to endorse, the fact remains that any treaty in the exercise that I have just described—when they that proposed to transfer powers from the UK to the 89WH UK Parliamentary Sovereignty 15 JUNE 2010 UK Parliamentary Sovereignty 90WH and the EU and the EU institutions of the EU would require a referendum for Gentleman to try and make this issue as much a matter ratification, under the terms of the programme for for the House as for the Foreign Office, because it Government that the coalition has set out. should be a matter for the whole of the House to We also plan to change the law so that any Government decide on. would be required to pass primary legislation before Mr Lidington: I take very seriously the points that the they could give final agreement to any of the so-called hon. Gentleman has made. He also asked me about the ratchet clauses. There is a variety of those clauses; there new Cabinet Committee on European Affairs. That is no easy definition of a ratchet clause. Some provide Committee is chaired by my right hon. Friend the for modification of the treaties without using the ordinary Foreign Secretary, and the deputy chairman is the Secretary revision procedure and some are one-way options that of State for Energy and Climate Change. It has met; it are already in the treaties, whereby EU member states met for the first time last week. However, I must disappoint can decide together to exercise those options, and which the hon. Gentleman by saying that it does not meet, and allow existing EU powers to expand. There are options, does not intend to meet, in public. There is no difference for example, in the common foreign and security policy, in that regard to the system for any Cabinet Committee. in justice and home affairs, and in environment policy. Members of the devolved Administrations are not members Besides the provisions on primary legislation, in our Bill of the Cabinet Committee on European Affairs but we will also ensure that the use of any major ratchet they continue to meet under the aegis of the Joint clause that amounts to the transfer of an area of power Ministerial Committee on Europe, to prepare for the from the UK to the EU would be subject to a referendum. European Councils each year. My hon. Friend the Member for Stone and the hon. Members for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) and for Chris Bryant: Waste of time. Rhondda (Chris Bryant) spoke about the inadequacy of Mr Lidington: The hon. Gentleman says that, but we our current system of parliamentary scrutiny of European want to make our relationships with the devolved legislation. The Government plan to improve the scrutiny Administrations work a lot better than they used to of EU decision making, and getting the scrutiny system during his time in office; that is one of the differences right is a very high priority for us. I am currently that the new Government intend to make. We want to examining ways of strengthening the existing system of turn not only those formal meetings but our regular parliamentary scrutiny and I am keen to discuss proposals contacts with our colleagues in the devolved with the new Scrutiny Committees of both the House of Administrations into something that informs the Commons and the House of Lords, once they are development of our approach to European affairs. Now, formed. I hope that they will be formed in the very near having said that, I must press on. future. My hon. Friend the Member for Stone asked questions about a number of detailed issues and I want to reply Kelvin Hopkins: There has been an honest division of very quickly to those questions. So far, there are no view about how parliamentary scrutiny should be reformed. proposals at all on the table that would require the UK The hon. Member for Stone talked about having all the or any other member state to submit its budget plans to debates on scrutiny open. I took the other view, because the Commission in advance of informing Parliament, we receive very valuable advice from Officers of this and my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister, the House—honest and frank advice, which I may say is Foreign Secretary and the Chancellor have all made it often sympathetic to my view as well—and the Officers clear that we would be utterly opposed to any such would not be able to provide such advice if the debates proposal. on scrutiny were carried out in public. My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the importance of some of the current proposals on financial Mr Lidington: The hon. Gentleman makes a clear services, which are with the European institutions now. point that we in Government and the House as a whole In particular, the de Larosière package on financial will want to bear in mind when it comes to taking supervision is a matter of primary importance to the decisions about the scrutiny process. It is also important interests of this country. Yesterday, in both the formal that we look at the practice of scrutiny in other EU proceedings of the General Affairs Council and in member states. I had a meeting last week with the bilateral conversations with some of my counterparts chairman of the Swedish scrutiny committee, and we from other countries, I said that we wanted to see the are exploring the models of scrutiny that are in use unanimous agreement that was reached on the proposal elsewhere in the EU, to see whether there are any at ECOFIN in December 2009 maintained in any future aspects of those processes that we might usefully adapt drafts of that proposal. for our own purposes here. The hon. Member for Luton North asked about agricultural policy reform. The Government remain Chris Bryant: The Minister is being very generous in committed to a policy of common agricultural policy giving way. I sensitively suggest to him that most other reform that would see an end to the direct subsidy of member states conduct scrutiny remarkably worse than production, a reduction in the external tariffs on foodstuffs, we do, which is quite a thing to be able to say. bringing them down to the same level of external tariffs In addition, all I would say to the Minister is that we that apply on other goods, and an end to the practice of still do not have the European Scrutiny Committee set dumping EU produce on the markets of developing up. For the life of me, I cannot see why the chairmanship countries, which undercuts those countries’ own farmers. of that Committee was not established when the other A number of hon. Members spoke about excess EU Select Committees that we have already elected were regulation. I know that both the Cabinet Committee on established. Also, I hope that a new scrutiny reserve European Affairs, which I am a member of, and the resolution will be tabled fairly soon. I urge the hon. Regulatory Sub-Committee of the Cabinet Committee 91WH UK Parliamentary Sovereignty 15 JUNE 2010 92WH and the EU [Mr Lidington] Gaza on Economic Affairs will be keeping a very close eye on 11 am that issue. Excess EU regulation comes not only from Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): I am Europe itself. Too often, there is gold-plating in Whitehall grateful for the opportunity to introduce this debate. of European legislation, which is something that we are I appreciate that the whole House had an opportunity also determined to guard against. to debate the situation in the middle east yesterday, but My hon. Friend the Member for Stone said one thing I am sure that hon. Members will be tolerant our having that I will quarrel with him about—in a good-humoured a debate today that concentrates specifically on issues manner—and it was about EU enlargement. I disagree affecting Gaza, given that they have been of so much with him on this issue. I think that the enlargement of concern in the past few weeks. the EU has entrenched political stability, the rule of law The crisis in Gaza is central to the broader crisis and democratic institutions in Spain, Portugal, Greece between Israel and Palestine, and that conflict, in turn, and in central and eastern Europe. It is actually a is one of the most important in global political terms. It tremendous achievement on the part of the EU. If one is crucial that British parliamentarians and the UK contrasts the picture today in those parts of our continent Government, along with the European Union, the United with what we saw in those same countries in the 1920s Nations and the Quartet partners, redouble our efforts and 1930s, I think that the advantages and the strengths to ensure that the blockade of Gaza blockade is lifted. of the EU’s approach are demonstrated. However, that is simply the most immediate step towards My hon. Friend rightly said that many people in a lasting peace settlement, without which we are doomed Europe are frightened, angry and disillusioned. That is to see repeats of the present situation. Not least because why we need to push forward a positive British agenda, this point is often misrepresented, it is essential to to get European people back to work, to free up markets, restate that Israel has entirely legitimate security needs to enhance free trade with the rest of the world and to that must be met; but that can happen only if the demonstrate an advance towards a cleaner and greener Palestinian people have the right to a viable and secure European economy. At the same time, we need to state within sovereign borders. champion vigorously the interests of the UK within the As we are all aware, the latest crisis was triggered on EU, to increase accountability to the British people and 31 May, when Israeli forces boarded one of six vessels in to increase the democratic legitimacy of the decisions the flotilla carrying aid to Gaza, killing nine Turkish that Ministers take in Europe, ensuring that it is the nationals. Accounts of the event vary widely, of course, people who can take the final decision on any future and have varied over time as different presentations of transfer of power from this country to European events have appeared in the media. From the footage institutions. that we have seen, there seems to be no doubt that Israeli soldiers were themselves subject to violent attack. However, Israel originally stated that its soldiers were fired on first—a claim for which no evidence has been provided—and that they were equipped with paintball guns, whereas the BBC’s “Newsnight” on 1 June showed that Israeli solders had been carrying lethal weapons from the beginning. Although we can draw some conclusions from the footage made available to date, we cannot yet be certain of all that happened on that day. It is crucial that the inquiry into those events wins the confidence of the international community. Whether that can be true of an internal inquiry with foreign observers, as opposed to the independent investigation requested by the UN, is open to doubt at the very least. It would be interesting to hear the Minister’s view of the robustness of the internal inquiry promised by Israel. However grave the events involving the flotilla were, they also serve to draw attention to the wider predicament of Gaza. Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ Co-op): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate. As she is moving on from the events involving the flotilla, may I take this opportunity to ask what her response is to the experience of one of my constituents, Theresa McDermott, who was on one of the other boats in the flotilla? Although live weapons were, fortunately, not involved, Theresa McDermott experienced what can only be described as brutality by Israeli forces, who fired sound grenades directly at people, tasered them and so on. Does my hon. Friend agree that that is another reason why an independent inquiry into what happened on the flotilla is needed, and that it would also be in Israel’s own interests to clear up what happened? 93WH Gaza15 JUNE 2010 Gaza 94WH

Ms Buck: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): Will my that point. It is of course true that in discussing the hon. Friend give way? flotilla, we have, perhaps understandably, concentrated on the terrible events that led to nine deaths, but there Ms Buck: Yes, but this will be the last intervention for are certainly grave allegations about what happened on the moment. the other boats in the flotilla. It is in everyone’s interests— including Israel’s, in my view—that the inquiry is sufficiently Mr Slaughter: The general tone of the interventions independent to win confidence. That is so often the case so far seems to suggest that Palestinians have brought with such inquiries. this upon themselves by electing a Hamas Government. I have visited Gaza twice in the past three years. I Does my hon. Friend agree that, whatever the political spent two days there in March as part of a parliamentary issues in the middle east, punishing the Palestinian delegation. On both occasions, what I saw shocked and people collectively for exercising their democratic right appalled me. As an important preamble, let me say that is entirely wrong? on my previous visit in late 2007—I was there with other hon. Friends here today—I was able to visit Ms Buck: I agree totally and that is the main thrust of Sderot, one of the southern Israeli towns subjected to my contribution today. There are issues of proportionality rocket attacks from within the Gaza strip. Although it and collective punishment. The 1.5 million citizens of should not be necessary, I restate that rocket attacks on Gaza should not be subjected to the impact of the siege the civilian population, such as those that rained down because of the Government that they chose—or, in on Sderot, constitute war crimes. I have no doubt that many cases, did not choose—to elect. everyone taking part in this and other debates condemns Israel has stated frequently that the occupation of such attacks without reservation. Israeli civilians have a Gaza ended in 2005 with the withdrawal of 8,000 settlers. right to peace and security. It is right that reasonable However, as it has at any time since 1967, Israel has steps should be taken to prevent the flow of weapons remained firmly in control of Gaza’s sovereignty, controlling into Gaza and to expect that attacks on the civilian its borders, airspace and coastal waters and retaining population should not take place from within Gaza. the right to enter at will. Gaza is surrounded on three sides by a security fence, and a seam zone extending up Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): to 1 km into the territory is enforced by snipers to I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and congratulate prevent anyone from approaching the fence. Palestinian her on securing the debate. I am listening carefully to farmers entering the zone are liable to be shot at by what she is saying. Does she agree that the key problem border guards, while fishermen seeking to fish away behind the current crisis is the fact that Hamas, which from the highly polluted coastline are regularly fired on rules Gaza, refuses absolutely to recognise the existence by the Israeli navy. Leaving aside the casualties of of the state of Israel? Operation Cast Lead in 2009, 31 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces and 116 injured since the beginning Ms Buck: I have not instituted this debate in order of 2010 alone. On 7 June, six Palestinians were killed off to act as an apologist for Hamas. There is absolutely no the coast of Gaza. doubt that Hamas is a critical player in the crisis in Since 2007, the control of Gaza’s borders has tightened the middle east, and neither I nor, I am sure, other further, to the extent of its being an all-encompassing parliamentarians are here to defend its role. The conflict siege. The people of that grossly over-populated strip— is deep and intractable and Hamas must take responsibility measuring only 10 km from east to west—have been for its share. However, with that important caveat, it denied all freedom of movement, have extremely limited seems to me that issue underlying the wider crisis in access to vital goods and services and, perhaps most Palestine and the situation in Gaza is the proportionality crucial, have been denied access to construction materials of the response and the collective punishment of the needed to rebuild the many homes and facilities destroyed civilian population of Gaza. during Operation Cast Lead. The agreement on movement and access stipulates Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I that 15,500 trucks a month should be allowed to enter congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this debate. Gaza via the crossing points with Israel. Since June Surely there can be no excuse whatever for the acts of 2007, however, the actual volume has typically been terrorism against the people of Israel, and the best way about 20% of that number. Between May and June this to stop the blockade is by Hamas stopping its terrorism year, only 400 trucks entered Gaza—one third of the so that people can live together in peace and harmony? pre-siege level. The trucks are supposed to contain everything that the 1.5 million people of Gaza need to Ms Buck: I am grateful for that intervention. I was survive, yet only 73 sanctioned items were permitted. not aware that I was in any way excusing acts of Items that were blocked—there has been very recent terrorism; I do not do that. However, although I do not movement on this—included pasta, powdered milk, want to be diverted into the chronology of recent jam, cooking oil, school books and textbooks and events, it is also true that Hamas has instituted truces in T-shirts. the rocket attacks on any number of occasions, but that those truces have not led to the sort of response that Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): I congratulate would allow us to make progress. I am sure that colleagues the hon. Lady on securing the debate. Regarding imports seeking to participate in the debate will discuss that and exports to Gaza, she is aware that one of my further. That is true in respect of both Gaza and settlement constituents, Ibrahim Musaji, travelled recently to the building in the west bank. The way forward to peace area with Bristol Gaza Link—the third time that that involves initiatives taken by both sides. organisation has travelled with humanitarian aid for the 95WH Gaza15 JUNE 2010 Gaza 96WH

[Richard Graham] projects are on hold. Sewage treatment and the provision of safe drinking water are among the most urgent people of Gaza. Does she agree that, given the heavy public health necessities, yet there too, materials are on decline in both imports to and exports from Gaza, with hold for that crucial project. 95% of private business in effect going bankrupt, life is no longer normal in Gaza? Restoring the normal pattern Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I apologise of trade and humanitarian aid into Gaza is a crucial for missing the first part of my hon. Friend’s speech. element for helping the people of Gaza, but doing so Did she also observe during her visit the psychological managing to exclude weapons from being transported damage done, particularly to young people, by the sense there is a conundrum that we hope the Government of incarceration and imprisonment, lost ambitions and might be able to help to resolve. the inability to travel or see anything that the rest of us wish to see of this planet? Ms Buck: I absolutely agree. That point goes to the heart of everything that I am hoping to say in the Ms Buck: I did indeed. We hear a great deal about the debate. public health impact of the siege, and there is clear I mentioned a very recent relaxation of the inventory evidence that a shortage of minerals and vitamins in the of items permitted to enter Gaza. There are reports that diet of children is leading to very serious bone and the Israeli authorities have recently approved the entry dental health problems and broader public health problems, of 11 new food and hygiene items to Gaza, including but mental health is of critical importance. It is of jam, halva, soda, juice, canned fruits, razor blades and critical political importance as well. It is hard to measure paste, yet overall Gaza imports have declined by almost and often people do not see mental health problems as 26% compared with last week alone. This week’s figure representative of a traditional humanitarian crisis, of constitutes 17% of the weekly average that entered the type that we saw in the days after the Haiti earthquake, during the first five months of 2007—2,807 truckloads but it is arguable that a graver problem is being stored of items—before the Hamas takeover. A relaxation of up, not just for the people of Palestine and Gaza, but the inventory is certainly not reading across into a for the Israeli people and for the future benefits of the relaxation in the volume of vital goods. Diesel and peace process. Half the population of Gaza is under 18. petrol for general use have been delivered on only five Some 900,000 children and young people are trapped in occasions in the last 18 months. Industrial fuel for an open prison. What that is doing to them and to the Gaza’s only power plant is also restricted. Between May next generations of political leaders does not bear thinking and June, only one quarter of the quantity required to about. operate it at full capacity was allowed through. That is one of the reasons why I feel so sad. It seems Operation Cast Lead destroyed or damaged 50,000 that, again and again, we see a behaviour that is not Palestinian homes, 280 schools and a number of hospitals necessarily in Israel’s own best interests and is really and medical facilities, which I and other hon. Members counter-productive. The other example of that is the in the debate saw for ourselves in early March this year. destruction, referred to in an intervention, of the private However, concrete and steel have, broadly speaking, not economy as a consequence of the siege. We have seen been allowed into the strip, and glass was allowed in the virtual total destruction of private commercial enterprise only for a very short period. The result has been an in Gaza. That, of course, has contributed to poverty almost complete lack of reconstruction since the war. because it contributes to unemployment, but it has That is clearly not in line with UN Security Council also—this is a perverse consequence—strengthened Hamas resolution 1860, which during Operation Cast Lead in important ways. called for the The siege has contributed to the thriving tunnel “unimpeded provision…throughout Gaza of humanitarian assistance, operation—the means used for smuggling on a massive including food, fuel and medical treatment”. scale from Egypt into Gaza. We saw for ourselves some The Goldstone report, arising from the UN fact-finding of the estimated 1,200 or so tunnels under the border, mission, further found that the blockade deprives which permit about 4,000 items to enter Gaza, from Palestinians in the Gaza strip of their means of sustenance, cars and satellite dishes to the fabled lion that was housing and water, as well as denying them freedom of brought into Gaza zoo and even basic medicines and movement. The report found that Israel has specifically food. That further disrupts the operation of the economy. violated The tunnels take a significant toll in human life. Some “obligations it has as Occupying Power” might say, “That’s the price you pay for what is in effect spelled out in the fourth Geneva convention, such as the a criminal operation,” but it is seen as a lifeline—a way duty to maintain medical and hospital establishments. of breaking some of the most destructive elements of On 1 March, I and other parliamentarians present the siege. Because it provides revenue in the form of saw, during my second visit to the area, that sites taxation on the smuggling operation, it strengthens continue to lie in ruins or badly damaged a year after Hamas’s hold on the economy, which is surely not what Operation Cast Lead, including the American international critics of the Hamas regime want. school, which was destroyed by Israeli missiles in January Steps to close the tunnels, which are now being 2009. Rubble has been cleared, but apart from some executed, will deprive Hamas of revenue, but tighten innovative “earth dwellings” to help the homeless, little the screws still further on the siege of 1.5 million people. reconstruction has taken place. In the southern town of No doubt Israel is worried—I understand why—that a Khan Younis, we visited some of the 2,600 housing lifting of the blockade would be claimed by Hamas as a units commissioned by the United Nations Relief and victory, yet it is hard to see a viable alternative strategy, Works Agency that have stood unfinished since the unless it is believed that sheer desperation will lead the start of the siege. In total, $100 million-worth of UNRWA people of Gaza to punish Hamas in favour of a more 97WH Gaza15 JUNE 2010 Gaza 98WH moderate strategy, which they have yet to see will read a teenager and have always argued that Israel has a right across into an effective political solution, as we have to exist with secure boundaries. I have had the privilege seen with the settlement building on the west bank. I of visiting the area on several occasions, and although I suggest that anyone holding such a belief is doomed to have yet to have the opportunity to go to Gaza, I have be disappointed. frequently visited the west bank. I hope that the Minister will give us his assessment of Let me make some brief comments following the the independent inquiry into the events on the Gaza worthwhile contribution of my hon. Friend the Member flotilla. I hope that he will report back from the EU for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) to yesterday’s debate. Foreign Ministers’ meeting in Brussels and advise us on First, we all hope that what Tony Blair said publicly what progress the EU can make, by itself and in discussions yesterday will soon come to pass. The work done by the with other Quartet members, to lift the blockade urgently. Quartet to bring about an end of the blockade, either Does he believe that any easing of restrictions will not wholly or significantly, is hugely welcome. Achieving merely ease the humanitarian situation, but underpin a such an end will be great progress, not least because the strategy of reconstruction and the rebuilding of the current situation is clearly nonsense, in the sense that private economy? Will the British Government do all although it is terrible imposition on the people of Gaza that they can to strengthen the accountability of all by virtue of the tunnels and other things, it is a blockade parties in this conflict for war crimes and transgressions with a conniving exemption. The whole thing has become of international law leading up to, during and subsequent a sort of international fiction, and the sooner we achieve to Operation Cast Lead? orderly relations between people on either side of the I shall conclude now, because many other hon. Members border, the better. want to contribute to this important debate. I remain convinced that, whatever the larger politics of the situation Regarding the Government of Gaza, people must be in Gaza and the middle east, we must act with the allowed to choose their own Governments. They are not utmost urgency to resolve the crisis afflicting 1.5 million always comfortable choices, but the world must understand civilians in Gaza—one of the gravest in the world today. that it does not help by alienating those Governments Britain’s longstanding connection with the area should entirely. I understand the difficulty. The Government of be used even more effectively to achieve a resolution. Gaza, Hamas, must understand—as they were moving to do—that the renunciation of violence and acceptance 11.20 am of the right of the state of Israel to exist have to be Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) preconditions for international acceptance. However, (LD): I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to that cannot mean that the people of Gaza or the west the debate. I thank the hon. Member for Westminster bank are not allowed to choose Hamas as their North (Ms Buck), who regularly does this House a Government. The reason why they do so, as I understand service by choosing topical issues, which she has done it, is that that party stands strongly for the welfare of again. I hope that the way in which she spoke—her the people whom it seeks to represent. In many ways, it carefulness and informed contribution—will commend has done that more effectively than the other parties in her comments to all parties. the west bank. We must understand that. We must also understand that we may well have to deal with Hamas I welcome you to the chair, Mr Streeter, not only for a long time to come. I know that there are forces of because you are a good chair, but because you, with the enlightenment in the Government that want to make hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) progress, and other Governments are helping them to and I, co-chaired the all-party group on conflict issues do that. May we please be clear that precluding Hamas in the previous Parliament. If there is one strategy that from being participants in the future is not a realistic we as a Parliament and the new Government need to option? deploy, it is to use our skill in conflict prevention and conflict resolution. In that context, I also welcome my Israel is a democracy. As colleagues made clear in the very good friend the hon. Member for North East House yesterday, it should be praised for being a democracy, Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) to his new ministerial although I share the view that certain forms of proportional responsibilities. He was sensitive when participating in representation are not helpful and that the Israeli system the debate on the middle east yesterday in the House, with a single chamber of Parliament might be one of and I know that he and his colleagues come to the them. The implication of a democracy is that the country subject with huge understanding and dedication. respects international law. It cannot have it both ways. To make a passing comment to link those words, It cannot say, “We uphold democracy at home,” as it those of us of the Jewish, Muslim or Christian faith—of does, “and an enlightened social and other policy,” but course, other people in the House have other faiths or then deny international law outside its own territorial have no religious faith—should have a particular waters or abroad. responsibility in this matter. If followers of the three great world faiths, for whom the part of the world that I have talked to Israeli Ministers and officials about we are discussing is so important, cannot understand such matters. They really have to understand that that the logic of our faith is that we should seek to international law has to apply to us all or it is discredited. accommodate followers of other faiths who share the When an inquiry such as the Goldstone report takes same belief in the same God, not much of an example is place, Israel cannot just then cast it aside because it set to the rest of the world when we seek to preach to does not like the findings. The eminent Judge Goldstone them. clearly did his job appropriately and properly. I heard I have always described myself as both a friend of the cautious words of the Minister yesterday; the Israeli Palestine and a friend of Israel. I have been actively Government must understand that their credibility supporting the case for a Palestinian state since I was regarding the events on the flotilla at the end of May 99WH Gaza15 JUNE 2010 Gaza 100WH

[Simon Hughes] we are to persuade both Governments to feel confident about the future. I hope that my friend the Minister and will be established only if there is an international his colleagues will be positive and think laterally about inquiry rather than just an Israeli Government inquiry the way in which a solution might work, as well as work with some international observers. I really believe that. enthusiastically to make sure that the matter is one of I and others have met constituents who were on the the highest foreign policy priorities of the Government flotilla. I have heard vivid accounts of how they saw in the days and months ahead. Israeli troops in large numbers—for example, 400 troops on the sixth boat—descend on the fighting. There is 11.29 am video footage and recordings, so there is no shortage of evidence. I just ask the Israeli Government to reconsider Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) their limited willingness to hold an inquiry and for it to (Lab): I rise to my feet as a friend of Palestine, and be conducted only by them. I want it to be done in a much to the furious incomprehension of a large number way that they find acceptable, but under the UN’s of my constituents, I do so as a steadfast friend of authority, as it has requested. Israel, despite the provocation. Last summer, I sponsored an Adjournment debate on the Spirit of Humanity—a In that context, my hon. Friend the Member for boat carrying humanitarian supplies that was trying to Bristol West referred yesterday to the motion of the break the siege of Gaza. On that occasion, Israeli forces executive of Liberal International, the organisation that intercepted the boat—we presume in international waters, represents all Liberal parties throughout the world, although the Israeli Government refused to provide which met on Sunday in Berlin. To summarise, it details of the boat’s position, despite requests from “Deplores the use of force by Israel commandos” British Ministers—but thankfully there was no violence. on that occasion. It In the light of that and other previous incidents, should “Deplores the violence caused by some activists on board the not the British Government have been alert to possible flotilla”. problems with the latest flotilla? Given that the Israeli The executive expressed media reported threats from the Israeli defence forces, making it clear that the ships were likely to be attacked, “shock at the resultant deaths and inquiries” what actions, if any, had the British Government taken and to avert those attacks, particularly knowing that British “Demands the restoration of liberty of the Israeli Arabs who citizens were on board? have been on board the flotilla”. My constituent, Alex Harrison, was on board the It Spirit of Humanity last year, and undeterred by that “Supports the UN Security Council’s call for a prompt, impartial, experience, she was also a passenger on the Challenger credible and transparent inquiry” 1 ship, which formed part of the flotilla that was examining the actions of all parties, and attacked again by Israeli forces on 31 May. Could the Minister tell us what assessment the Government have “Strongly calls on the Middle East quartet, and the US government made of the legality of the Israeli attack on the in particular, to urge all parties to return to the Road Map and observe international law.” humanitarian convoy? What assurances has he had from the Government of Israel about whether there will Let me make one last point about the future. Gaza be any more attacks in international waters on boats has a very difficult future. It is a small enclave surrounded carrying British citizens? by other countries, as the hon. Member for Westminster North rightly described. The history of enclaves in Over the weekend, we heard more detail about the international law is not happy. Berlin is the last one that inquiry that is to be set up by Israel. We understand that springs to mind—separate from the rest of its country it will include a foreign element and observers such as with a corridor established. I understand the policy of David Trimble. Will the international community have both my party, and that of the Government. The traditional full confidence in that inquiry and its findings? Will it policy of countries such as ours is to accept a two-state be independent and transparent? Will the Israelis, the solution: a Palestinian state and an Israeli state. That Palestinians and, perhaps most importantly, the people might be right but, just as there will need to be an of Turkey have full confidence in its findings? As Cathy imaginative solution to the future of Jerusalem, which Ashton, the High Representative of the European Union will have to be the capital of both countries if there is to put it in The Times yesterday, will that inquiry be be lasting peace, so there needs to be an imaginative “credible, rigorous and impartial”? solution to how Gaza is linked with the west bank. In the debate yesterday, my hon. Friend the Member To have simply two separate territories without for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden) stated connection will not be an adequate way forward. There the obvious: there have been inquiries in the past on might have to be a special and protected connecting Israel, and perhaps one need go no further than to ask strip. There might have to be a renegotiation of land Tom Hurndall’s family about their experience of Israeli settlements that would include those settlements that inquiries to explain why some people might be slightly are illegal as part of the package, as well as a return to cynical about an Israeli inquiry. Another issue is just old boundaries. There may have to be in the long term a how wide that inquiry will be and who will be questioned? United Nations presence to give security on what was Will Alex Harrison be asked about her experience on mandated territory for us between the ‘20s and the ‘40s, that boat? and other international friends to support it. We, as a In preparation for this debate, I spoke to Alex. As I country, may have to play a significant role with the said, she was on board Challenger 1. It was flagged in Quartet and other countries in guaranteeing the territories, the United States. She would like me to highlight the the boundaries and the peace of Israel and Palestine if illegality of the Israeli action. The men who were killed 101WH Gaza15 JUNE 2010 Gaza 102WH were on the Marmora, which was registered in the Emily Thornberry: Many hon. Members have Comoros islands, which are off Madagascar. It is her constituents who have been on the flotillas. I suspect view, and that of many others, that the seizing and that we have many constituents who will be on them killing of the flotilla’s passengers while in international again. Alex Harrison has said that she will go back. waters is nothing less than piracy. She says that they The terrible events of 31 May have brought the eyes were some 80 miles away from Israel and were sailing of the world back to what has been going on in Gaza, away from Israel when they were boarded. highlighting the suffering of its people. The three-year The Israeli action on 31 May may constitute breaches blockade of Gaza has been compared to a mediaeval of international law that could be tried in the International siege. There are some similarities: there is no free movement Criminal Court. Alex was one of the boat’s crew. She of people; no goods can leave Gaza, leading to the told me that the Israeli forces came on to the boat, firing complete collapse of most businesses; no building materials plastic bullets. All the glass on the boat broke. People have been allowed in to repair the damage caused by the were then pushed to the ground on to the glass. She was Israeli attack of December 2008; one in 10 babies in the last to be stopped, as she was on the bridge. Two Gaza are malnourished; one third of babies have anaemia; members of the Israeli defence forces came up. Two and a large proportion of the population is food insecure. Australian journalists—Kate and Paul from The Sydney However, the big difference between a mediaeval siege Morning Herald—were with her, and they identified and the siege of Gaza is that the third crusade, when themselves. In response, they were tasered. It was a besieging Acre for two years, was intended to topple the completely terrifying experience. garrison and not to behave in such a way that actually There was no violence from Alex’s boat towards the bolstered the garrison. That is effectively what has been Israeli defence forces, yet those on board were treated happening. Instead of undermining the regime—which with huge violence. She says that she has hand marks on they seek to do—the Israelis are, by their actions, bolstering her arms and legs from when she was picked up and Hamas. Israel has got this fundamentally wrong. It is carried from the boat. Once they were carried from the incumbent on those of us who are genuine friends of boat, all their items were bagged up and labelled. They Israel to tell the truth: this is wrong, and to continue to have not had them back. The Israelis now say that they behave in that way towards Gaza and Hamas undermines do not know where they are. She was told that she the security of Israel. would be deported to Turkey. She had the clothes she Mrs Ellman: Does my hon. Friend accept that stood up in. She had no passport and no money. She approximately 15,000 tonnes of goods a week have had not been to Turkey—she had come from Greece—and gone into Gaza, although that is clearly inadequate? yet the Israelis said that they would deport her to Does she agree that if the European Union and the Turkey. Palestinian Authority had been able to carry out their Alex refused to go and so was one of the last to be responsibilities in manning the crossings, goods could deported. She was in a pen with 15 other women, and have gone into Gaza at a much faster rate? she witnessed some women next to her being hit about the head. They were not treated as badly as the men. Emily Thornberry: In the end, if Gaza were treated She saw some men at the airport who were badly how it should be treated, the gates would be open and beaten, including Ken O’Keefe, who was so badly injured the tunnels would be closed. Yes, I fully understand. I that he was not able to board the plane. She was some 5 have been to Sderot and have seen how Israeli children yards away from an Irishman called Fiachra O’Luain as are terrified of incoming bombs that rain down on their he was beaten around the head—she saw that going on. town. I fully understand why it would be necessary to She also saw Turkish men, who had been injured and search trucks going in—to make sure that they do not come out of hospital, being put on to the plane. Well, to have weapons in them. However, it is not a challenge to say that they were put on to the plane is inaccurate—they Israeli security to stop biscuits going into Gaza, and were walking on to the plane as best they could. Some that is the fundamental point. Gaza is being treated had been shot in the feet and were on crutches. There completely differently and in a way that is fundamentally were no wheelchairs. She was not allowed to assist the unfair. It is incumbent on us to say loudly and clearly men. If any attempt to try and assist them was made, that that is wrong. people were hit again. Although she had experienced Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): The hon. Lady brutality from a distance in the past, she had never referred to biscuits. On the visit that I attended with the experienced such face-to-face, one-to-one brutality over hon. Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck), we such a sustained period. She said that they were sworn saw the bombed biscuit factory that, ironically, produced at, abused and laughed at throughout. That was goods for export to Israel. Does the hon. Lady agree unnecessary—gratuitous, in her view—and she certainly that, in controlling the substances that are allowed into would like to give evidence to any inquiry. If necessary, Gaza, Israel has been entirely arbitrary? Such substances she would like the matter to be taken to the International change from week to week and include random items Criminal Court. One can understand why, given her such as jam and pasta, which were referred to by the experiences. hon. Member for Westminster North. When we were there, we were told that nappies—or diapers, as they Mark Lazarowicz: May I put on the record that the were called—were not being allowed in. The sole purpose constituent whom I referred to was also one of the of that seems to be to play with people’s minds and do protestors on the Challenger 1? She reports a similar psychological damage to the civilian population. account of what happened on the boat and in Israeli custody. Her account illustrates the real issues being Emily Thornberry: It goes further than psychological raised by a number of credible people from the UK, damage: the fact that there is not a steady stream of and I hope that the Government will respond to them in proper goods going into Gaza also undermines people’s the positive way that my hon. Friend requests. health. Moreover, the fact that no exports are allowed 103WH Gaza15 JUNE 2010 Gaza 104WH

[Emily Thornberry] graduation of any country in the region, but people have no possibility of employment unless they can get a out of Gaza means that the economy has been undermined job with the UN, a non-governmental organisation, or and that the people are dependent on Hamas, which the Government of Gaza. NGOs clearly require sufficient allows and taxes the tunnels. Civil society is therefore resources, because the private and business sectors have undermined even further and people become increasingly virtually completely collapsed. The two basic ingredients dependent upon Hamas. When a poor woman wakes up for running a small business or a store are customers in the morning wondering how to feed her six children, and goods to sell. In Gaza, there are no customers, she does not think to herself, “This is Hamas’s fault,” because they have no money, and there are no goods to but, “This is the Israel’s fault.” That continues to feed sell, because they cannot be got in. One therefore walks extremism and undermine the very security of Israel. down streets and streets of boarded-up stores and shops, Those of us who believe in a two-state solution are and there is a sense of deep depression in the environment. fundamentally worried about that and are very concerned During our visit, we had a lengthy meeting with about what is happening. members of all parties of the Palestinian Parliament in I will not go through all my examples—I am sure that Gaza in the bombed-out ruins of the Parliament building. hon. Members are aware of them—but Cadbury’s creme What possible purpose was there in Operation Cast eggs somehow get through the tunnels and nobody can Lead specifically bombing the debating chamber of the afford them. Some 12,000 buildings need to be rebuilt, Palestinian Parliament? What kind of message was that and 44% of Gazans are unemployed and so on. The trying to give? Why were mortar shells fired through the fundamental point, however, is that the siege of Gaza is upper floors of a school? The last time I had been in not hurting Hamas; it is destroying the lives of thousands that school was as an election observer the year before, of ordinary Gazans. The EU is the largest donor to when it was teeming with people queuing up to vote. Palestine, but aid is not enough. It is also Israel’s largest The school was bombed, which was clearly gratuitously trading partner, and we have some clout at EU level. We insulting to the people of Gaza. There was no point or in the EU must be more confident and do more to put purpose to it whatsoever. There was no possible military pressure on Israel to ensure that the people of Gaza are objective; nor was there in the destruction of many treated fairly. I very much hope that EU Foreign Ministers homes, among other things. will adopt a united position and that Britain will fully As we left Gaza on our way to the Rafah crossing support it. That may include questioning whether an back into Egypt, our bus was filled with an unbelievable internal Israeli investigation of what happened to the stench from the sewage works. They had been damaged flotilla on 31 May is sufficient. and bombed and no chemicals had been allowed through It is also important for us to be more active diplomatically to operate the sewage treatment system. The result was in the middle east. The problem is not going away—we tens of thousands of tonnes of raw sewage being pumped must address it. We must end the blockade, which is into the Mediterranean. At some point, that sewage will morally outrageous and politically self-defeating, and start polluting the beaches of Israel when presumably as I said here last summer, we must open the gates and public opinion in Israel will say something should be close the tunnels. Many organisations based in my done to allow equipment in to repair the sewage works constituency—such as Medical Aid for Palestinians, in Gaza. That kind of gratuitously insulting behaviour Save the Children, UNICEF and Merlin—work very makes people so angry and is utterly counter-productive. hard to support the people of Gaza; but, ultimately, I have spoken to many people who were on the flotilla their good work simply gives us the space to exert moral the week before last, and listened to their descriptions, and political courage to ensure a two-state solution and including that of Alex Harrison, the constituent of my peace for everyone. hon. Friend the Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry). The way in which the Israeli soldiers 11.42 am behaved was disgusting: people were shot, imprisoned Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Thank you, and denied access to phones, legal advice and, particularly Mr Streeter. I apologise for missing the start of the in the case of older people, food and water. debate and congratulate my hon. Friend the Member I was at a meeting last week when an al-Jazeera for Westminster North (Ms Buck) on securing it. It is journalist, who had been on the vessel, described in extremely important. excruciating detail what he had observed. He clearly has I have had the good fortune to visit Gaza on five a vivid and photographic memory. That account needs occasions over the past 10 to 12 years, and I was last to be told because it was of an incident taking place on there with many of my colleagues as part of a European the high seas in international waters. An inquiry headed delegation led by my right hon. Friend the Member for by a series of Israeli judges—with all due respect to Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman), during which David Trimble, the only international observer—is not we saw for ourselves what the situation was like in good enough. We want an international inquiry from Gaza. As I said in an intervention, we saw the people of the United Nations with an international committee of Gaza’s sense of imprisonment and its psychological jurists. I guess Israel would not be happy about that effect on young people. I also noticed for the first because the last international observation of Israel’s time—I had never seen it before—a sense of youth behaviour was the Goldstone commission on Operation disaffection, with higher levels of drug taking, vandalism Cast Lead. I would be grateful if the Minister could let and antisocial behaviour, which was never previously a us know what progress has been made on the Goldstone factor in the life of Gaza. commission and its process through the UN Security Gaza has a very young population. Teenagers and Council. young people often have a good education—the UN I do not want to go on too long because many others schools are pretty good—and there are high levels of want to speak. In reality, the situation is simple: Palestine university education. Palestine has the highest level of is under occupation. In the case of the west bank, it is 105WH Gaza15 JUNE 2010 Gaza 106WH under occupation through checkpoints, endless military list and two new Members have just indicated that they intervention, targeted assassinations, the construction would like to speak, and we will try to get everyone in. of the wall, denial of water, trade and ordinary life, and You can do the maths yourselves. the sense of collective fear of many people living on the west bank. In the case of Gaza, it is encircled by walls, 11.52 am barbed wire, aerial buzzing—including targeted Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): bombings—and by Israeli naval vessels off the coast to It is important that we discuss the shocking events of 31 prevent fishermen going further out and the flotilla and May, but it is also important that we discuss the context aid vessels getting in. in which they occurred, even though some of the facts Although public opinion in Israel undoubtedly supports about that context disturb a number of people. There what the Government are trying to do, a significant may be things that they would rather not hear or know number of people argue, demonstrate and act collectively about. However, the facts are that Israeli settlers left to say that the strategy is complete madness, collective Gaza in 2005, but that was followed not by Palestinians punishment and illegal, and creates a sense of isolation and the people of Gaza trying to build a new society in Israel. Israel is now more isolated in world opinion and attract international investment. It was followed by than it has ever been. It broke the law, in my view, in the the violence of Hamas overthrowing Fatah and engaging case of the flotilla. The Goldstone commissioners reported in a civil war with it, and by Hamas continuing to state on Operation Cast Lead. British and other passports its absolute opposition to the very existence of Israel. were used in the Dubai assassination. There are numerous Hamas’s charter is readily available. It constantly examples of how UN law and resolutions have been puzzles me why people who are legitimately and genuinely flouted by the state of Israel. So we come to the concerned about social justice wilfully ignore the contents conclusion: what do we do about the situation? of that charter in a way that they would not if it First, we send all the aid that we possibly can to the belonged to any other organisation. The charter includes people of Palestine to allow them to survive. I was at a statements about killing the Jews. It says that the day of fund-raising event last week for medical aid for Palestine. judgment will not come until the Muslims kill the Jews. The organisation, which is based in the constituency of It says that there is no way except jihad, and that peace my hon. Friend the Member for Islington South and conferences and negotiations are a waste of time. It Finsbury, does fantastic work. Many of us have also talks about the protocols of the elders of Zion, and the supported many other charities. Why do we have to false allegation that Jews run the world. It claims that send medical aid to Palestine? Why do we have to send Jews are responsible for all revolutions, including the aid at all? The people of Palestine and Gaza are suffering French and Russian revolutions. Indeed, the charter not from a tsunami, an earthquake, a volcano, a hurricane goes beyond being anti-Israeli: it is clearly anti-Semitic, or a tropical storm but from something specifically and when it is combined with Hamas’s actions in targeting designed to punish, to hurt and to damage people’s rockets at Israeli civilians, is it surprising that Israelis lives. That is what the occupation and imprisonment of are genuinely concerned about their security? the people of Gaza are all about. There is increasing concern about the involvement of Why, then, do we not impose some kind of sanction Iran with Hamas in Gaza. That concern was intensified against Israel for its constant illegal behaviour? Why do when, last November, a vessel was intercepted off the we not suspend the EU-Israel association agreement by coast of Cyprus, filled with armaments coming from which Israel survives so well economically? Why does Iran on their way to Gaza. Those weapons were aimed the US continue to pour aid into Israel, including not only at Sderot, which has suffered too much and for military aid and a new missile defence system, other too long, but at Tel Aviv. Israel’s concerns about security than because it sees Israel as an extension of its own are real. foreign policy in the region? If we want a nuclear-free Something needs to be done about the crossings and middle east and peace in the middle east, the siege must the current state of affairs. Last June, the European end. The blockade must be lifted, and the people of Union said it was willing to contribute to post-conflict Palestine and their legitimate right to live peacefully arrangements, yet what has happened? Very little. Egypt and to survive must be recognised. was also involved in addressing what was happening I sat down with the right hon. Member for Gordon with the crossings, but it has withdrawn. I hope the (Malcolm Bruce) and others at several lengthy meetings statement made by Tony Blair yesterday about new during our visits with the Egyptian Foreign Ministry, proposals will become a reality, so that the long-suffering the Arab League, the Hamas Government and people of Gaza can have their needs addressed. parliamentarians in Gaza. The one thing that came Disturbing questions must be asked about the events across in the last two meetings with the Hamas Government of 31 May. Six vessels were involved, and it must be and the other parties was that they want to be part of asked why five of those six vessels landed at Ashdod as the process. They want to be part of the future, and of a requested and unloaded their humanitarian aid, while settlement. Isolation, ignorance, occupation, killing and on the sixth vessel something was very different. When murdering, which is what it is, are not making things those five vessels landed their humanitarian aid at Ashdod, better. They are making the situation worse, and we Hamas refused to allow that aid to be delivered to look to the Government to be assertive in their policies Gaza. That is deplorable, and I do not hear cries of towards Israel’s ending the blockade. concern and criticism directed at Hamas for taking that action. Several hon. Members rose— Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): My Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair): Order. Colleagues, hon. Friend is aiming her fire at something nobody in winding-up speeches will begin at 10 minutes past 12, so the debate has sought to defend. Why does the picture we have 18 minutes to go. I have two colleagues on my that she paints of Gaza appear to be so different from 107WH Gaza15 JUNE 2010 Gaza 108WH

[Richard Burden] the incident should be seen as genuinely independent and international, and as having credibility on all sides? the weekly reports given by the United Nations and Will she at least agree that that would perhaps provide other agencies about the situation, and about the causes some way forward from that unhappy incident? of that situation and Israel’s responsibility for it? Those agencies are there, so why does she think they have got it Mrs Ellman: There are indeed differing accounts of so dreadfully wrong? I suggest that it might be a good what happened, and that is to be expected in an exceedingly idea for her—and a number of other hon. Members—to fraught and tragic situation such as the one that occurred. visit Gaza and talk to people there and get their views That is why I agree that it is important that inquiries on their situation. should take place; but it is not possible to ignore the facts that I have stated: what happened on that flotilla, Mrs Ellman: The reality is that Gaza is run by Hamas, what was involved in its planning, the statements that an Islamist organisation that is proscribed by the EU, have been made on the TV, the information that has the USA and Canada as a terrorist organisation. Its been in the Turkish media, and the context in which regime has led to this dreadful situation for the people Gaza is run, by an organisation with a charter that is of Gaza. That cannot be ignored; it is a fact. More simply genocidal. questions need to be asked about that flotilla, focusing There is a way forward. The statements made by on that sixth vessel. What is the role of the Turkish Tony Blair, the middle east envoy, point a way forward IHH—again, a charitable organisation linked to Hamas to dealing with the issue of the crossings, but more than and other terrorist organisations? What about the recording that must be done. The most constructive thing would that was made in relation to that sixth vessel, showing be for Hamas to review its situation, withdraw its charter that when the Israelis repeatedly asked it to land at and state its agreement to accepting the existence of the Ashdod, the reply came back, “Go back to Auschwitz”? state of Israel, and join Fatah in negotiations to secure What about the fact that people on that sixth vessel a two-state solution to this tragic problem. were armed with metal rods with knives, and that a To pick up a comment from one of my hon. Friends lynching of Israelis was attempted? I have no doubt that about going to Gaza, I have been there—a long time the majority of people on those vessels were genuine ago, in 1967, just after the six-day war. That was certainly peace activists, but were they infiltrated by somebody not a golden age for the people of Gaza, which had at else with other ideas? that time been administered by Egypt under the armistice What about the reports that we have seen since those agreements of 1949. The people of Gaza were deeply events in the Turkish media? Families of people who distressed and dissatisfied with the rule of Egypt. They were regrettably killed on that vessel have stated that were in poverty and distress. After that war it was hoped their partner—the husband in one case—said that he that there might be a negotiated solution to the whole wanted to be a martyr. Even more damning, what about conflict, but the Khartoum conference, where the Arab the broadcast that was made on Hamas TV on 30 May, states said clearly “No recognition, no negotiation, no the day before the incident happened, when a university peace” put an end to that. I hope that, whatever our lecture said that the participants in that flotilla wanted different perspectives on why we are in the current to die as martyrs even more than they wanted to reach position, we can all make a new start and there can be a Gaza? What a condemnation. negotiated peace on the basis of two states living together in peace and security. Mr Slaughter: My hon. Friend is repeating the information—if I can call it that—put out by the Israeli Several hon. Members rose— authorities in the immediate aftermath of the incident, for which no evidence has been produced. Is she seriously Jim Sheridan (in the Chair): Winding-up speeches saying that, because Israeli forces normally get away will start at 12.10 and three hon. Members have said with abseiling heavily armed on to ships in the middle of they want to speak, so I suggest brevity if possible. the night, when, on one occasion, people resist and nine of them are shot dead, they had it coming to them? My 12.3 pm hon. Friend should consider the language she uses, even in putting forward her case so strongly. Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): Before what I hope will be brief remarks, I point out by way of [JIM SHERIDAN in the Chair] a declaration of interest that my constituency party has received donations from individuals and organisations Mrs Ellman: The detail of what happened on the ship supporting the rights of Palestinians, and I made several will come from the inquiries, but the information that I visits to Palestine, Gaza and the west bank in the have brought to this debate—I think very damning previous Parliament. condemnation of what happened—does not come from As to the flotilla, about which we have heard quite a Israeli sources. It comes from the Turkish media and lot in the debate, we clearly have heard very different what has been shown on Hamas TV. Those facts might versions of what happened. As my hon. Friend the be very inconvenient for people who do not want to Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden) know about them, but they are there and they are part said, perhaps for that reason more than any other, an of the picture. independent inquiry—one that is seen to be independent—is demanded. The way the news came out was entirely Mark Lazarowicz: I understand the strength of feeling predictable—an entire news blackout and suppression of my hon. Friend and her view on the issue, but does of information by the Israeli authorities for the first 48 she agree that the differing accounts that are being hours. They gave their version of events, and with regret given are themselves a good reason why the inquiry into I must say that some of the highly partisan and unsupported 109WH Gaza15 JUNE 2010 Gaza 110WH accounts, blackening the name of people who were I would like the British Government to make similar travelling on that flotilla by way of exonerating the pronouncements and at last to put pressure on the Israeli actions, have been repeated in this debate and Israelis to lift the wholly unjustifiable and inhuman yesterday on the Floor of the House. That does not punishment of 1.6 million civilians, which they have help, and nor does the way the Israeli information imposed simply because they have the ability to do so services deal with those matters. and because the rest of the world is not, at the moment, prepared to stand up to them. Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): Will my hon. Friend give way? 12.8 am Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): The firing of Mr Slaughter: I do not think that I shall have time to rockets from Gaza into the south of Israel presents a take interventions. menacing and deadly threat. It is completely wrong and it needs to stop because it is taking innocent lives. It is Travelling on that convoy were many independent, wrong because it provides the justification for Israel’s well-respected people, including an Israeli-Arab member retaliation, although not for its disproportionate response, of the Knesset, Hanin Zoabi, and Henning Mankell, which is merciless at times. the respected Swedish author. All those people have given eye-witness testimony as to the brutality and The question that I am constantly asked in Bradford violence of the Israeli forces, who wholly unnecessarily East is why the state of Israel is allowed to get away with stormed the convoy in international waters in the middle this. People simply cannot comprehend why international of the night. No real explanation can be given as to why action is not taken. The answer, I have to conclude, is that was necessary. I have heard a number of those that Israel can get away with it and regularly does. Yes, eye-witness accounts, which are compelling and have Hamas is proscribed, but why is the state of Israel not the ring of truth about them. However, the solution to proscribed? Everyone says that a peaceful solution is the absolutely black-and-white situation that we have necessary, but why on earth should the state of Israel heard described by the two sides so far is an independent agree to a peaceful solution when brutal force has inquiry. achieved so much for it over such a long period? In my view, the two-state solution is almost an impossible I have three sets of questions for the Minister. On the dream. The situation has gone too far. I hope that that responsibilities of the British Government, the treatment is not the case, but I fear that it is. of British citizens needs to be looked into. Issues include Why should we take a lead? We should do so because the violence and brutality that many of them allege the the British are up to our necks in responsibility for the Israeli forces meted out to them over a prolonged situation in the Palestine region. From 1917 onwards, period, and the confiscation of their belongings. There we gave away something that was not ours; we turned a is also the refusal of consular access. There has been blind eye to the ethnic cleansing that took place after great criticism of the embassy in Tel Aviv for not the second world war; and now we are participating in pressing as hard as other countries’ embassies to get the international acceptance of an apartheid state. People access to our citizens. All those matters require answers. say that that would not be allowed anywhere else. In The second issue on which the Government should fact, it was not allowed anywhere else—certainly not in be prepared to act is the search for a more independent South Africa. role for the inquiry. It would be useful to hear the Unless things change, they stay the same. We must Minister talk about the effectively tokenistic gesture of take a lead with our European partners, as has been appointing Lord Trimble, who is known as a supporter said. We must go back to Obama, who started by of the boycott of Hamas and a friend of Israel, and making a very positive speech in Cairo. However, we who cannot be seen as impartial, and a judge who does must also consider boycotts, divestment and sanctions, not believe in an international element to the inquiry. because those were the only things that carried any That is not an independent inquiry; it is the basis for a weight in South Africa. Those policies must extend not whitewash, and it would be useful if the British Government only to weapons but to sport and academic boycotts as asked for a genuine international inquiry. well. The United Nations has made a score or more Thirdly, the Minister was quoted as saying that he did resolutions. It is not resolutions we need; it is resolve— not think that Jim Sheridan (in the Chair): Order. I apologise, but “the British Government is talking about lifting the blockade” my earlier plea for brevity failed. I call Ivan Lewis. on Gaza. That quotation, which was in The Guardian last Thursday, may be wrong, but it would be disappointing 12.11 pm if it was correct. We need to lift the blockade on Gaza; Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab): I congratulate my we need not to ease the restrictions or simply to see a hon. Friend the Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) greater number of supplies going in, but to restore full on securing this debate and on her passionate, balanced commercial and civil life to Gaza. Again, that is something and highly effective contribution, which was an extremely that the Government should strongly support. good start. We are talking not about factional organisations, but There is absolutely no doubt that the plight of the about organisations such as the United Nations Relief people of Gaza is both an humanitarian tragedy and a and Works Agency and the International Committee of political crisis. The blockade of Gaza is unacceptable the Red Cross, which have said clearly and in terms over and unsustainable, and it is now essential to remove all the past few days not only that the blockade is “illegal” obstacles not only to humanitarian assistance but to the and a “humanitarian catastrophe”, but that it constitutes materials and resources required to begin rebuilding “a collective punishment imposed in clear violation of Israel’s homes, public infrastructure and the Gazan economy. obligations under international humanitarian law.” However, that will happen only if Israel can be assured 111WH Gaza15 JUNE 2010 Gaza 112WH

[Mr Ivan Lewis] same answer now. Clearly, if people are being held without trial and without charge and there is no evidence that systems are in place to ensure that arms and arms that they have committed criminal offences, they should components cannot be smuggled or got in any way into be released. If there is evidence of criminal offences, Gaza. It is therefore essential that the Quartet and the that evidence should be brought before the courts, and Arab League work with Israelis and Palestinians to whatever the person’s status—we have recently had a come up with a credible plan to end the blockade while debate about status and parliamentarians in this country— meeting Israel’s legitimate security concerns, which is they should be charged. That is my very clear position. the basis of resolution 1860. The Opposition warmly Finally, I have some specific questions about Hamas welcomes the work of Tony Blair and Baroness Ashton for the Minister. Do the Government stand by the three on those matters. conditions laid down by the Quartet that Hamas must I have a couple of questions for the Minister. What meet to be brought into the political process? Are the do the British Government believe should be the EU Government reviewing Britain’s position on that issue, contribution to such a plan? How quickly can a plan be or is Britain arguing within the EU or the Quartet that put in place? Neither in this debate nor in yesterday’s that position should change? A question that is never did anyone refer to the Egyptians putting in place sufficiently asked in these debates is whether we have an security infrastructure to close the tunnels and prevent assessment of the treatment of Gazans in terms of smuggling. Has that been done and, if so, what effect human rights, and of Hamas’s attitude and behaviour has it had on the tunnels? towards UN agencies and non-governmental organisations On the Israel defence forces’ raid on the Gaza flotilla, in Gaza. What is the international community’s assessment I made it clear during last night’s debate that we welcome of the people of Gaza’s experiences of the Hamas the Israeli Government’s decision to set up an inquiry Government? How many rockets have been fired into with the involvement of two international observers. Israel in the past 12 months? Can the Minister give an However, we will watch closely to ensure that the inquiry assessment of where we believe Hamas’s financial support meets the tests of independence, transparency and comes from? Some hon. Members have referred to the credibility. My questions to the Minister about the relationship between Hamas and Iran; it would be flotilla relate to many of my hon. Friends’ contributions. useful to know what the British Government’s assessment Will British citizens who were on the flotilla have the is of the nature of that relationship. opportunity to give evidence to the inquiry, and what I also wish to ask a question that nobody has asked efforts will the British Government make to facilitate for some considerable time. We, as a Government, were that? What happened to the humanitarian assistance on giving tremendous support to Egyptian efforts to reunify the flotilla? We hear different accounts. the Palestinian leadership. I think that we all accept that On aid, this country can be very proud of the aid that that would ultimately be in the best interests of a peace we provided to both the west bank and Gaza. The sad process. Things have gone very quiet, however, and it is irony of this debate, for reasons that many hon. Members not clear whether the Egyptians have stopped playing have raised, is the contrast between progress on the west that facilitator role or whether the process is ongoing bank and in Gaza. We should always pay tribute in such and the British Government continue to support the debates to the leadership of Prime Minister Fayyad and Egyptians in fulfilling that role. to President Abbas for the improvements in security In conclusion, as my hon. Friend the Member for and economic growth on the west bank. We should also Westminster North said at the start of the debate, what continue to support the two-year plan launched by matters most is political progress towards two states. Prime Minister Fayyad towards Palestinian statehood. The current proximity talks are important, but until we I have some specific questions for the Minister. Will move to direct talks on the comprehensive issues that the new Government maintain our commitment to will lead to a fair and just two-state solution, the £210 million in aid over three years for the west bank vacuum is dangerous because it could lead to a return and Gaza? Was the £19 million for UNRWA in Gaza to serious violence. I hope that the British Government announced by the Secretary of State for International will continue to do everything in their power to support Development last week new money, or part of the the move towards direct negotiations as quickly as £210 million that was already committed? possible. Let me briefly raise the continued detention of Gilad Shalit. I think that all Members agree that his detention 12.20 pm is unacceptable and that he should be released without The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign delay or precondition. It was very moving for me to and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): It is a pleasure meet his father not that long ago and hear the human to be here under your chairmanship, Mr Sheridan. I misery that the family is going through. What more begin by echoing the thanks of the hon. Member for does the Minister think that the UK and the EU can do Bury South (Mr Lewis) to the hon. Member for Regent’s to secure the release of Corporal Shalit, particularly in Park and Kensington North— their dialogue and contact with Arab states? Ms Buck: Westminster North. Jeremy Corbyn: As we are on the subject of the release of prisoners, does my hon. Friend think that the Alistair Burt: None of us should forget that. I Palestinian parliamentarians should also be released? congratulate the hon. Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) on securing the debate and on the balanced Mr Lewis: I think that I dealt with that question last way in which she put her case, marking out clearly what night, and my hon. Friend heard my answer then. He she believes, but also making due reference to the needs probably was not satisfied with it, but I give him the of Israel and its security on a number of occasions. All 113WH Gaza15 JUNE 2010 Gaza 114WH of us, I believe, appreciate the way in which she made the question of consular access, which was incredibly her points. I also welcome the work that she has done important to a number of people from Walthamstow, with the all-party group and the report that she has members of whose family were on the flotilla, and on produced, which illustrated her remarks. the lack of information that we, as the British Government I will do my best to cover as many questions as I can, and as British MPs, were able to get hold of. It does not but I will not go through all of them as there are many. seem clear to me, as far as we have seen the remit of the It is quicker to ask questions than to answer them, but I inquiry, that the issues about how international citizens will do what I can. I also appreciate the engagement of are treated in such kinds of incidents and what lessons the hon. Member for Bury South with my office on the can be learnt will be covered. I hope that the Government debate and the issues that he raised, about which he will take that point on board. knows a great deal. Alistair Burt: The hon. Lady makes a fair point. Mr Ivan Lewis: Old habits die hard. Clearly, we are not responsible for the remit of the inquiry, but a number of Members have mentioned the Alistair Burt: Yes, I remember. It is difficult for a consular problems that occurred. I will make some while to stop, and the hon. Gentleman is clearly in that inquiries with the Israeli authorities on that matter. I mode, but he is doing extremely well. would like to say a little about the consular problems, because a number of Members raised them. I shall remark on the incident itself and then say a little about the situation in Gaza. The Government unequivocally deplore the deaths of the nine people Richard Burden: Will the Minister give way? I have a who lost their lives as the result of the recent events. The small point. Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister were in touch with the Turkish Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Alistair Burt: No, because I have only six minutes. to offer our condolences, recognising that most of those The consular service is one of the most important who died were Turkish citizens. We have consistently aspects of the Foreign Office’s work. Our travel advice made the following point clear to the Israeli Government, clearly advised people against travelling to Gaza, and both in public and in private: we look to Israel to do we made that specifically clear in relation to the flotilla everything possible to avoid a repeat of the unacceptable as well. I will meet those who were involved in the actions. incident tomorrow. The meeting was set up at my request The hon. Member for Bury South asked about the so that people could discuss their experiences both with United Kingdom’s role in the events and the investigation. me and other consular officials at the Foreign Office. I The UK has played a key role, working closely with shall listen to them very carefully. the international community, including the EU and the As far as I am aware, our consular staff in Israel Quartet representative Tony Blair, to stress to Israel the worked tirelessly from the moment that they were alerted importance of an investigation that ensures accountability, to the situation to ensure that they could get access to commands the confidence of the international community those involved and that people had everything they and includes international participation. The Government needed. We raised with the Israeli authorities the need have discussed those matters with Israeli counterparts for immediate consular access, and that was granted the on a number of occasions, most recently on 13 June, following day. Our officials spent several hours visiting when the Prime Minister spoke directly to Prime Minister those who were in detention and in hospital before they Netanyahu just before Israel announced a public were deported, and we had a large presence in Istanbul commission to investigate the incident. to meet those who arrived there. We are also aware that It is important that the investigation ensures full some people’s passports and luggage have not been accountability and commands the confidence of the returned. We will raise that issue with the Israeli authorities international community. The announcement yesterday because such goods must be returned. by the Israeli Government of a commission headed by a Supreme Court judge and including David Trimble and Richard Burden rose— Ken Watkins, a Canadian, as international observers is an important step forward. We welcome the commission’s Alistair Burt: The hon. Gentleman’s persistence must international membership and broad mandate. It is be rewarded. important that the inquiry is truly independent and the investigation is thorough. We will watch the progress Richard Burden: Does the Minister believe that the and conduct of the inquiry before we make any further Israeli Government’s inquiry has the confidence of the remarks. international community? Furthermore, Does he believe that it should be an international inquiry rather than an Richard Burden rose— internal inquiry with an international dimension?

Stella Creasy rose— Alistair Burt: No, the inquiry meets the United Nations Security Council resolution requirement of an independent Alistair Burt: I will give way to the hon. Member for and impartial inquiry with an international element, Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), because she has not spoken. but we will wait to see how it evolves. We believe that it has met the initial requirement set out by the international Stella Creasy: I thank the Minister. Please forgive me, community, which was not for an international inquiry as it is my first time participating in such a debate, but I or a UN inquiry; it was exactly as the UN resolution am a little concerned that we have not heard many delivered. The point is we should not be distracted by details about the remit of the inquiry, particularly on the remit or the structure of the inquiry. The important 115WH Gaza 15 JUNE 2010 116WH

[Alistair Burt] Lymington River thing is what it looks at and what emerges from it to 12.30 pm give some credibility to the assessment of what happened. We know that there are competing versions of events Mr Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): I feel out there, and we know that the world will not be almost like a country parson reading the banns of satisfied unless there is a process that gives everyone the marriage—“this being for the third time of asking”—given chance to say what they saw and what conclusions they that this is the third time I have dragged a Minister to came to. The state of Israel understands that as well as Westminster Hall to answer for the actions of the anybody else, and we have made that point very clearly. Government on the protection of the Lymington river. We should not get hung up on the structure of the Furthermore, as with the controversial actions of inquiry, because, in testament to those who died or who country parsons in respect of changing hymns and were involved, we should let the inquiry get on and see modern unpopular liturgies, I find that my own actions what emerges, and that is what we are concentrating on. in my assiduous dedication to this task have proved It is very important to see the incident not in isolation, equally unpopular. While I was going about my duties but as part of the continuing misery and drama of in Lymington on Friday, a charming but forceful lady Gaza. We and other members of the international took me aside and demanded to know why I was so community have underlined the need to lift current “anti-ferry”. Actually, I am not “anti-ferry” at all. My restrictions in United Nations Security Council resolution starting point is that there is a critical need in both the 1860. As for the blockade itself, the UK’s position is Lymington and Yarmouth economies for the ferry service that there is a role for the EU, both diplomatically and and I want to see that ferry service preserved. However, as part of the Quartet, in dealing with the easing of the there are other interests that have to be balanced against restrictions. those of the ferry service, not least the protection of the European Natura 2000 sites, the importance to the local In terms of semantics, when I talked about not lifting economy of the yachting interest in Lymington, and the blockade last week, I meant not lifting the blockade indeed the long-term survival of Lymington as a harbour, to allow completely free access to Gaza of everything which is protected by the local mud flats. The diminution that anybody wants to bring in. No one is talking about of those mud flats poses a long-term threat to the future that. If conventional wording means to allow the unfettered of Lymington. So, all those interests have to be balanced. access of goods that are both humanitarian and necessary to help with the reconstruction of Gaza, but not including It is the law that provides protection and balance. The arms, that is what I meant, so there should be no fact that we are now having a third Adjournment debate disagreement between us there. We support the attempts on this issue and that we have had two spats in court, that have been made to change the nature of the blockade both of which the Government lost, is down to the and to get the right goods in. failure to implement the law properly. The Government gave all sorts of commitments in signing up to the As far as our support for the UN work is concerned, relevant European directives, but then failed properly to we announced £19 million for UNRWA’s work with transpose those directives into English law. Palestinian refugees across the region. That is part of I do not want to repeat the entire history of this the tranche of money that was already agreed. In relation subject; those who are interested in it can read the to the question of the hon. Member for Bury South Official Report of the two previous Adjournment debates. about continuing that flow of money, such a decision is However, I shall give a potted history now. We have subject to the same concerns about Government expenditure always been led to believe the received wisdom that the generally. None the less, I share his belief that that erosion of the Lymington salt marshes was an inevitable support is necessary and should continue. The hon. consequence of nature—“It’s the weather and there’s Gentleman will be aware of the Government’s commitment nothing we can do about it”. Of course, those salt to international aid and development. marshes are vital to Lymington, and the Lymington The position of Hamas was raised by the hon. Member harbour commissioners have come up with a plan worthy for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) and a number of of our Victorian forebears in its engineering prowess. others. Hamas does play a part in the whole tragedy of They are going to build a sea wall—a monument to Gaza; it is wrong to ignore it or to ignore its part in that King Canute—to hold back the waves and save at least tragedy. There is no suggestion that the United Kingdom some of the salt marsh. I am not qualified to say will change its position in relation to contact with whether that plan will survive current economic realities Hamas; we intend to keep that as it is. or whether it will actually work. The hon. Member for Bury South asked a number of However, as a consequence of this controversy, a questions about Hamas, but he also called for the number of studies have been carried out of bathymetric unconditional release of Gilad Shalit and asked what data—a subject on which I am uniquely unqualified to we can do about that. We in the Conservative party have pontificate. I understand, however, that the findings of also pressed for the unconditional release of Gilad the Southampton university team who carried out one Shalit for a number of years. As a Government, we will of those studies suggest that the salt marshes, if left to continue to do that— nature alone, would actually be accreting—growing and extending—and that it is only the introduction of the Jim Sheridan (in the Chair): Order. We must now move particular form of propulsion used by the Lymington to the next debate. ferry from the 1960s onwards that has led to the swift erosion of the salt marshes. That erosion has been even swifter since the introduction of the new “W”-class ferries, a development that has sparked the recent controversy. 117WH Lymington River15 JUNE 2010 Lymington River 118WH

These are issues well beyond my competence, as I objectives. Consequently, adverse effects on the integrity of the said, but they are precisely those that must be clearly European Sites are avoided and the tests and approach under understood and examined in that appropriate assessment. article 6(4) (and regulation 62 of the Habitat Regulations 2010) A principal reason for the court’s determining that the are not engaged. The mitigation works will prevent the harm occurring and consequently the works are appropriately considered new ferries had been unlawfully introduced on to the mitigation and not compensation.” Lymington river was that Wightlink was its own competent authority for the determination of that appropriate In plain English, that gobbledegook means, assessment. Notwithstanding reams of assurances, in “Notwithstanding the damage we are doing to the correspondence from Ministers and in parliamentary Natura site, because we are compensating by dumping answers to my questions, that the Maritime and Coastguard some mud somewhere else, no damage has occurred.” Agency was the appropriate authority, when it came to This is a most ridiculous interpretation. It did not fool the crunch it turned out that because the Government the Hampshire and Isle of Wight Wildlife Trust. In a had been so cack-handed in implementing the habitats classic piece of English understatement, in its letter to directive, Wightlink was its own competent authority. me it says: The judge said it had shown a complete disregard for its “We remain to be convinced that on a practical level the public responsibilities, separating them from its own proposals have been sufficiently well considered and will deliver the habitat benefits that would be required to provide assurance commercial interests, and that as a consequence it was that the introduction of the new ferries will not have an adverse absolutely invalid. effect on the integrity of the Natura 2000 site. We also continue to The question is what to do next. Wightlink has said it seek clarification as to whether the scheme is in fact compensation will rerun the appropriate assessment and, in addition, rather than mitigation.” do a full environmental impact assessment. The difficulty So we have this issue of compensation and mitigation. is that Wightlink remains its own competent authority. Natural England has already accepted a measure of Wightlink will still be judge and jury in its own court. damage and adverse effect on the sites. It tends to rather Wightlink has said, “No, no. We’re going to form a new understate it. In its stakeholder response to the study company—Wightlink CA, or Wightlink competent carried out by Natural England, Wightlink says: authority—to judge the appropriate assessment.” Key “The revised impact requiring mitigation is quantified by questions arise. How will the commercial interests of Natural England as increasing from 1.05 to 1.55 ha per decade Wightlink CA be different from the commercial interests (for explanation see Appendix 5). This predicted impact is still of Wightlink itself? Will it have a different board of very small year on year (0.16 ha) only building to a more directors? There is a clear need in these assessments for substantial impact and risk of adverse effect over several years.” an independent referee. When people put things in newspeak, it is an attempt to Wightlink has said it will carry out a full environmental confuse the general reader. I did not come across “ha”— impact assessment. That is a huge undertaking, involving whatever “ha” is—in my O-level maths, so one feels public consultation. It must consider the whole environment, intimidated and does not ask the question but simply including the increase in heavy goods vehicles traffic accepts the conclusion that it is very small. I suspect it is through the Forest to take advantage of the greater a hectare. capacity of the ferries, especially as the bridge restrictions at the mouth of Lymington at the Ampress site mean The Minister of State, Department for Environment, that those lorries have to travel through the sensitive Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice) indicated parts of the national park. All those issues give rise to assent. great local concern about the impartiality of Wightlink, because it already has form on this matter. Why should Mr Swayne: The Minister nods, so it is a hectare. So we trust it now, given that the court could not trust it 0.16 of a hectare is 1,600 square metres, and that is the earlier? impact each year. I do not consider that to be very small When Wightlink announced that it would do an at all. environmental impact assessment, it set out the details Let me outline for the Minister what I think the law of how it was to be achieved, including the setting up of states should happen. For the purposes of the habitats Wightlink CA, in a letter from its solicitors. The letter directive one has a plan or a project. That was one of concludes by saying what the outcome would be before the first battles in court. Yes, it is a plan or a project. the assessments have begun. It states: Will it have an adverse effect? In order to determine “Natural England have advised on a rate of erosion of the that, one needs an assessment. Whether one needs an existing habitat areas in the European Sites that can, in their view, appropriate assessment or a full environmental impact be attributed to the operation of the ‘W’ class ferries. The mitigation works will prevent loss of an equivalent or greater area of habitat assessment in addition is a question of law, but one (than the loss attributable to the ferries) elsewhere in the European needs the assessments to answer the first question. Sites.” If the assessments suggest there is no adverse impact, There it is: it has already concluded that the mitigation one can go ahead with the project; if yes, stop. Then, works it is to undertake will compensate for any erosion. ask the next question. Is there an alternative—a question Before the assessments are undertaken to establish the that has been completely avoided by the current process? rate of erosion and other facts, we have the conclusion There are all sorts of other alternatives, including a that the mitigation works will take care of it. The smaller ferry with a different means of propulsion that conclusion has been announced before the studies have is not so damaging to the river. Nevertheless, is there an even begun. alternative? If yes, take the alternative. If no, that is Wightlink goes on, in a most extraordinary piece when it lands on the Minister’s desk. worthy of Alice in Wonderland, to say: If the answer is no then the Minister has to decide “The effect of the mitigation works is therefore to prevent an whether there is overwhelming public interest in the adverse effect on the European Sites by reference to their conservation project proceeding, notwithstanding the damage it will 119WH Lymington River15 JUNE 2010 Lymington River 120WH

[Mr Swayne] of my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West, I am sure that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary would do to the sites. That is where, if I were the Minister, I be happy to meet him and go through them in more would probably take a step back and say, “Well actually, detail. when it comes down to it, we do need the ferry.”But we On the issue of biodiversity, I was astonished when have not been through that assessment yet; we have not reading the brief by the scale and significance of the reached that point. It is at that point, if the Minister salt flats to which my hon. Friend the Member for New decides there is an overwhelming public interest in the Forest West referred so clearly. Lymington harbour is project proceeding, that he considers compensation and part of a complex of estuaries in the Solent which doing something else to build up the salt marshes supports a diverse coastal ecology. Large parts of the elsewhere. area, as he has said, are designated under a number of The process that has been undertaken in Lymington directives because of the habitats and species there. has put these elements in completely the wrong order. By way of background, for which my hon. Friend We are already talking about compensation, although will understand the need, the sites designated under the an attempt is being made to say that it is actually habitats and birds directive enjoy a degree of protection mitigation: “Don’t mention the word ‘compensation’—it’s commensurate with their biodiversity importance. Any really mitigation—because of the implications that arise plans or projects, as he rightly said, proposed in the area from that definition.” Clearly, however, that is the process are subject to an initial screening to decide whether the that ought to be followed and I fear that if it is not, we plan or project may have a significant effect on the site. will end up with another expensive spat in court. Unless a significant effect can be conclusively ruled out, Let me briefly describe to the Minister my desired the plan or project needs to be subject to a full assessment end state. I hope that we end up with a viable ferry via a legal procedure set out in those regulations. That is service between Lymington and Yarmouth, and that we known, as my hon. Friend said, as an “appropriate can come to an accommodation on the basis of preserving assessment” and responsibility for undertaking it rests the Natura sites and the yachting that is vital to Lymington’s with the “competent authority”, the identity of which is economy. I fear that we will be presented with a fait clearly one of his concerns. It is the body proposing to accompli: regulators were asleep on the watch. Whatever undertake, or give consent to, the plan or project. The the reason, we now have expensive ferries, built in purpose of the assessment is to ascertain whether the Bulgaria, operating on the Lymington river and doing plan or project is likely to have an adverse impact on the damage. How do we get round that? I hope that with integrity of a protected site. That assessment includes a some means of determining the compensation and the detailed study of impacts and mitigation measures, and way forward, we can reach an agreement that Wightlink an assessment of alternatives. In carrying out an assessment, will go to some lengths to ensure that those ferries are, the competent authority is required to “have regard to” in a reasonable period, sold on for use elsewhere, or the advice of the appropriate statutory nature conservation used on another of its routes, while an appropriate ferry body, which in this case is Natural England. for the conditions of the Lymington river is introduced as a replacement. In reality, this is a highly profitable Having said that legal bit, I should say that I fully route. It has one of the highest charges per passenger understand my hon. Friend’s concerns about Wightlink’s mile of any ferry in the world, a monopoly inherited decision a year ago to introduce larger ferries on the from British Railways. The company ought to be able to route. I could argue with him about some of the issues make a go of it. There should be no question of any to which he referred, although I would be arguing from threat to the viability of the continued service. almost the same position of lack of understanding to which he referred in other contexts. The Department is I close by asking the Minister to reflect on this. not aware of having lost two cases, as I think he Notwithstanding the failure of Government and the suggested. There have been two cases in court, one was regulators to spot this on the horizon and deal with it the judicial review, to which he referred, and the other effectively, and leaving aside the Adjournment debates was an application for an injunction to stop the ferries that I held in order to raise the issue with Ministers, it that was refused. We could debate the rights and wrongs has been a small number of local yachtsmen who have of the issue, but they were fully aired at the hearing in had to take the initiative and raise the huge sums of December, which culminated in the judgment handed money to take the matter to court. I hope that they are down in February that is now a matter of public record. not going to have to do so again. I strongly endorse the point made at the outset of his remarks about the importance of the ferry and the 12.47 pm commercial need for it in his local economy and that The Minister of State, Department for Environment, of my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): I start by (Mr Turner). Ferries are crucial for both. congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for New We now need to concentrate on the measures being Forest West (Mr Swayne) on, as he says, his third taken to ensure that the protected sites suffer no adverse Adjournment debate, the first to which I have had the impacts from the new ferries so that the service can pleasure of responding. I know that he feels strongly continue as intended. I do not want to open a debate about the issue. I think he is aware that the matter falls into all the issues covered by the judicial review hearing, within the remit of the Under-Secretary of State for but two key points emerged from the judgment. First, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the introduction of the type of larger ferry in question the hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), who was, as my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest is responsible for marine issues, but unfortunately cannot West said, a plan or project under the terms of the be here today. I preface my remarks by saying that if, as habitats directive, and, secondly, the judgment confirmed I strongly suspect, I do not entirely allay all the concerns that Wightlink is the competent authority responsible 121WH Lymington River15 JUNE 2010 Lymington River 122WH for assessing the impact of the ferries. Although DEFRA Wightlink, and it will require the consent of other has a role to oversee the implementation of the directive regulators. I understand that Wightlink intends to start in the UK, the court agreed that it would not be the work next spring. appropriate for the Department to assume the role of Let me address my hon. Friend’s point about whether competent authority, which I think is what my hon. the proposals comply with the habitats directive. I am Friend was suggesting, nor did the court suggest that satisfied that it is acceptable to take into account proposed the fact that Wightlink is a private company disqualifies mitigation works when coming to a conclusion about it from discharging its duties as a statutory harbour whether a plan or project would have an adverse impact authority. on the integrity of a protected site. I am also satisfied Some of the faults that my hon. Friend described, that works intended to avoid an adverse impact should and his desired final outcome, are issues that Wightlink be regarded as mitigation rather than compensation. I itself, as the competent authority, should take into understand that Wightlink and Natural England have account, particularly the consideration of alternatives. I taken counsel’s opinion on the issue. fully understand his desire for those alternatives to be Clearly, this is a complex area. Like my hon. Friend, I considered. Since the judgment, Wightlink and Natural do not pretend to be an expert on it, but we need to look England have worked very closely to assess the potential at what we can do to counter the risks. First, the ferries impacts of the new ferries and to consider what mitigation are being monitored. As he said, the Lymington harbour works would be needed to avoid any adverse impacts. commissioners undertake regular bathymetric surveys, Both parties have invested considerable time and money which will pick up any long-term erosion. Wightlink in that process and used their own expert consultants. has also placed graduated stakes at various points to That assessment includes mapping evidence to assess work out whether there is any evidence of ferry thrusters changes to the navigational channel, consideration of affecting the mudflats. So far, there is no evidence to sediment movement and a review of other influences on suggest that the impacts will be different from those the navigation channel. The work also considered already predicted. However, we are clearly in an unknown propulsion and ship wash modelling, and other likely area, and the science suggests that any erosion will be effects from the increased size of the new ferries. gradual and cumulative, so it may take several years to build a firm picture. That is why the monitoring is My hon. Friend referred to the damage that he believes designed to give early warnings, which will enable us to has already been done by the ferries. My understanding move quickly if we need to. is that the studies into the loss of the salt flats and salt That brings me to my last point, which relates to my marshes go back much longer; apparently, the Keyhaven hon. Friend’s question about what happens if Wightlink marshes experienced a 50% loss between 1971 and and Natural England have got things wrong. Ultimately, 2001, and the Lymington marshes experienced a 63% the most important safeguard is the Secretary of State’s loss between 1946 and 2001. No study to date has been power to control the operation of the ferries. If, at any conclusive on the cause of the loss. I fully understand stage, Natural England provides advice that there is my hon. Friend’s concern at those losses. Having grown evidence to suggest that the operation of the ferries is up in a similar area on the east coast, I fully understand likely to damage the site, the Secretary of State has the the importance of the salt marshes, but we need to have power under the Conservation of Habitats and Species a sense of perspective and not necessarily to blame Regulations 2010 to make a special nature conservation everything on what has happened recently. order and to serve a notice on Wightlink requiring it to My hon. Friend had a little tease about the meaning stop any operation specified in the notice. I must repeat of the word “ha”, and I think he understands that it is, that Natural England predicts that the impact of the as he implied, a hectare. Natural England has quantified ferries is most likely to be gradual and cumulative. On the predicted habitat loss and deterioration caused by that basis, it has advised that provided that Wightlink the ferries and requiring mitigation as 1.6 hectares of successfully delivers mitigation works starting next spring, inter-tidal habitat per decade. My hon. Friend suggested it will avoid any adverse effect on the integrity of the that the organisation had come to a decision before the protected sites. As things stand, therefore, we have no assessment, and we can argue about the precise detail, clear scientific basis on which to support a decision to but it is important that we start with a marker as to stop or suspend the ferry operation at the moment. where we need to be on mitigation. I am really grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this subject, because the debate opened my eyes to an issue Wightlink and Natural England have had detailed with which I was not familiar. Clearly, our main priority discussions about mitigation works that Wightlink could is to comply with our obligations under the habitats undertake to ensure that the operation of the ferries has directive and to protect these important habitats, and no adverse impact on the protected sites and can thus that is what we want to achieve. If we can do so while continue without breaching the Government’s obligations catering for the commercial needs to which my hon. under the directive. A programme of work has been Friend referred, that will satisfy us all. If he wishes to proposed that involves taking material acquired from pursue the matter, he can talk to the Under-Secretary of the regular dredging of the local moorings and depositing State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my it in an area of deteriorating and eroding salt marsh. hon. Friend the Member for Newbury. If all else fails, That would prolong the life of the salt marsh and the Government ultimately have the power to stop the mudflat habitat and offset the possible increase in the ferries, but I imagine that my hon. Friend the Member erosion of the mudflat attributed to the ferries. That for New Forest West and I would like to think that we work will of course be undertaken and funded by can work things out without having to do that. 123WH 15 JUNE 2010 Building Schools for the Future 124WH (Barking and Dagenham) Building Schools for the Future (Barking Before last month’s elections, Barking and Dagenham and Dagenham) was due to receive some £275 million of capital investment in secondary schools through the BSF programme. The programme included £250 million for school buildings and £25 million for information and communications 1pm technology investment. The BSF programme will enable Jon Cruddas (Dagenham and Rainham) (Lab): Thank the council to modernise all its secondary schools, you, Mr Sheridan, for giving me an opportunity to say a including Trinity special school, and to build a new few words. I wish to make a few comments and raise a secondary school that will include special school provision few questions about the future of the Building Schools in Barking Riverside, which is a major regeneration site for the Future programme in the London borough of in east London. The programme includes the modernisation Barking and Dagenham. To begin with, I shall refer to a of all the ICT provision in schools, and two schools— couple of recent statements emanating from the new Dagenham Park Church of England school and Sydney coalition Government which imply that different positions Russell school—are sample schools for the procurement on the future of the programme are being developed in process. the Department for Education. The outline business case was approved by Partnerships First, in response to a question from my hon. Friend for Schools in July 2009. Since that date, the council has the Member for Heywood and Middleton (Jim Dobbin) been involved in the procurement of a local education at the first Prime Minister’s questions following the partnership—LEP—to build schools and provide facilities, recent election, the Prime Minister said: and a managed ICT service provider partner, to provide “I know that the hon. Gentleman will be pleased to see that in a managed ICT service for the schools. making the £6 billion in-year reductions—many warnings were Contracts were advertised in the Official Journal of given about what that would mean—we have protected the schools the European Union in August 2009, which named the budget, and ensured that schools and Sure Start are protected. In London borough of Havering and Thurrock council in terms of building schools for the future, let me be clear: our Essex as contracting authorities, as well as ourselves in plans—and our passion, when it comes to education—are to the London borough of Barking and Dagenham. That ensure that new schools are provided so that we have real excellence, in the secondary sector in particular. That is what it is about. means that both those bodies can use our LEP when Building schools for the future is exactly what our plans involve.”— formed should they choose to do so, although they will [Official Report, 2 June 2010; Vol. 510, c. 430.] fund their own developments. If they use the LEP, as That was, of course, very good to hear and very welcome shareholders in the LEP we would reap a shareholder in our part of London. return. Let me mention a few specific points. On 8 June, the Given that response, I was slightly unnerved to come borough cabinet approved a recommendation for the across some recent press coverage which implies that a ICT selected bidder. Yesterday, the cabinet approved slightly different approach is being developed in a different the LEP selected bidder. Notwithstanding the fact that part of the Government. I refer the Minister to a report we do not yet know the Government’s position on the Building in magazine of 4 June headlined “Government future of the BSF programme, and assuming that we to halt BSF projects within weeks”. The article states: are able to continue the process, we would expect to “The government could announce a formal halt to the £55bn achieve financial close in late summer or early autumn—a school building programme within weeks, amid growing pressure matter of weeks away. from contractors for clarity over the future of the scheme. It is understood that the Department for Education is likely to make Given the press coverage that I alluded to earlier, we an announcement alongside or before the Budget on 22 June in must assume from those reports that the £55 billion response to uncertainty about the status of projects under the national BSF programme is under threat from the new Building Schools for the Future initiative…officials are preparing coalition Government, as part of their public sector to put all schemes that have not reached preferred bidder stage on cost-cutting drive. If the Government decide to scrap hold…These include about £2bn of projects approved by the the programme in the next few weeks—as has been previous government as far back as last July…It is understood that all projects that have received financial close and virtually all rumoured—that will have a huge impact on Barking those at preferred bidder stage will progress as planned, although and Dagenham. Critically, if BSF is cancelled or sources have warned there may be ‘some grey areas’.” significantly delayed, from 2012 there will be a significant and growing shortfall in school places in our borough. Since the report in Building and the Prime Minister’s welcome words a couple of weeks ago, the Department Council projections suggest that the borough will seems to have gone quiet on the subject. The only trace need an additional 2,250 secondary school places by of formal comment I could find was a 10 June press 2015, rising to 2,875 places by 2017. Perhaps the Minister release from the Department which was headlined is aware that this part of London has been subject to “Department for Education statement on BSF”. It stated: extraordinary demographic change over the last few years, much of it off the radar of the state because it has “The Department for Education has not taken any decisions on the Building Schools for the Future (BSF) programme. The occurred since the 2001 census. Those changes should Department is reviewing BSF to ensure that when we build not be underestimated in terms of the sheer velocity of schools for the future, we do so in a more cost-effective and movement into the borough. efficient fashion. Any future rollout decisions will be announced Local councillors are also worried that, in addition to in due course.” BSF funding, the primary school capital programme Therefore, today I search for a bit of clarity on the could be hit by Government spending cuts in the near status of the programme, with specific reference to the future. The number of primary school places needed is situation in east London. This is a vital issue for all estimated to rise to 11,595 by 2017. Over the past few residents, parents and political representatives in the years, the rate of increase in births in the borough has council and here in Parliament. led to a significant rise in the demand for school places. 125WH Building Schools for the Future 15 JUNE 2010 Building Schools for the Future 126WH (Barking and Dagenham) (Barking and Dagenham) For example, in 2000-01 there were 2,380 births in the next comprehensive spending review in March 2011, borough. By 2007-08 that number had risen by over but the future is uncertain after that. Moreover, although 50% to 3,541. In addition to the extra pressure on BSF does not affect primary schools, a primary capital school places due to the higher birth rate, the borough programme exists, and there is concern for the future of remains a significant area of economic regeneration. It that funding string as well. has the lowest-cost housing market in Greater London, Overall, therefore, BSF is vital to the overhaul of the which has acted as a magnet for young families moving secondary schools in our borough to help us meet the into the borough over the past few years. The housing extra demands created by the birth rate and patterns of represents good value and is attractive to young families, migration in east London. BSF is a major investment which in turn places additional pressures on our school programme that will totally modernise all schools in the places and buildings, and on the physical infrastructure authority, including our special school. Works will vary across the borough. from major rebuilding, remodelling and refurbishment The current coalition Government place great store to combinations of the three. The only exception among in their new politics, in greater transparency in public the secondary schools is the recent new-build Jo Richardson policy making, and in ensuring that they give the public community school, which will receive ICT investment. a major say in where the cuts should be made. I am sure The borough has a selected bidder for the ICT, as that I speak for many parents in Barking and Dagenham well as an LEP-selected bidder. We hope to finish the by saying that one area where we do not want to see cuts whole process by late summer, assuming no policy is in money that is desperately needed to modernise our change at the national level. We therefore seek reassurance school buildings to make them fit for the 21st century. for the project as a whole. The BSF LEP-selected bidder If BSF funding is cut for the borough’s schools it will has passed the various stages of the BSF LEP evaluation have huge implications, not only for our schools but for process. The BSF programme is a key element of improving the regeneration agenda, which I touched on briefly. If the well-being of children in the borough, reducing we do not receive BSF investment, the knock-on lack of inequalities and ensuring integrated children’s services, school places will have a big impact on housing development given the guidance that we received under the Childcare across London and at the heart of the Thames gateway. Act 2006. Without investment in our schools, we will not be able BSF will bring many benefits to the borough, including to meet demand. We will have a shortfall in school extended schools, raised attainment and expanded education places which, in turn, will make the borough a less services as the school-age population in the borough attractive place for young families to move to. grows. I therefore return to the two quotes that I reported Last week, the council leadership wrote to the Chief at the beginning of my contribution. I welcome the Secretary to the Treasury to seek assurances on BSF commitment to the BSF programme that the Prime funding. The council now intends to step up the campaign Minister made clear among his first parliamentary answers. at local level to save funding for the borough’s schools I hope that the Minister can support the programme in by organising an online local residents petition to the Barking and Dagenham, not least because we have Prime Minister. It is also urging local people to write to concluded the selected bidder part of the process and the Prime Minister, calling on his Government not to are nearing completion of the total process, which is abandon BSF investment. I can fully understand both why the report in Building magazine caused such concern initiatives. The stakes, for BSF and local education locally. We seek reassurance that our scheme will not be provision, are high. put on hold. The magazine stated that “all those at preferred bidder stage will progress as planned, The possibility of major cuts to the BSF programme although sources have warned there may be ‘some grey areas’.” must be seen alongside other cuts at local government level. Following announcements in the past two weeks I simply seek reassurance that we will proceed as by the Chancellor and the Department for Communities planned and that we are not one of the grey areas. The and Local Government about the Government’s economic borough’s changing demographic profile, birth rates savings plan, local councils across the country are being and existing pressures on the education sector combine required to find an extra £1.165 billion in savings, uniquely, with the result that this capital programme is amounting to 20% of the Government’s £6.2 billion in vital for our residents and children. I look forward to cuts to public expenditure this year. the Minister’s response and, hopefully, to some reassuring noises. That means that the borough of Barking and Dagenham will have to find additional savings of between £4 million and £5.8 million in the next year, on top of savings of 1.14 pm approximately £14 million this year to offset some of The Minister of State, Department for Education the losses, especially in the operation of the housing (Mr Nick Gibb): I congratulate the hon. Member for revenue account, which have put great pressure on the Dagenham and Rainham (Jon Cruddas) on securing authority’s budgetary process. this important debate. He speaks eloquently on behalf The precise amount of the cuts will not be known of his constituents. He has emphasised the importance until the new Conservative and Liberal Democrat coalition of the BSF programme to the borough of Barking and reveals its full emergency Budget next week, but there Dagenham, including its importance to issues such as are already worries that housing money and Government extended schools and raising educational attainment. I cash normally reserved for local authorities in charge of pay tribute to him for his fight against extremism and areas with significant deprivation will be cut. the British National party and his commitment to There are also concerns at local level about the future campaigning against poverty. of funding for the 18 children’s centres in our borough. I listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman’s comments, I understand that the funding grant is secure until the including his forecasts for secondary school places and 127WH Building Schools for the Future 15 JUNE 2010 Building Schools for the Future 128WH (Barking and Dagenham) (Barking and Dagenham) [Mr Nick Gibb] which will ensure that more money reaches the most disadvantaged pupils, who already start out with a a 50% increase in the birth rate, rising from 2,380 in financial and knowledge deficit in comparison with 2000-01 to 3,541 in 2007-08. He is right to emphasise their peers. Capital programmes and investment in the the importance of the fabric of a school building to the school estates are very important to the coalition issue of raising attainment. Our ambition is to raise Government, but we must ensure that those programmes standards throughout the education sector, to improve represent good value for money. outcomes for the most disadvantaged, to restore confidence As the hon. Gentleman pointed out in his opening in our qualifications and exam systems, and to ensure remarks, we are reviewing the Building Schools for the that children leave school with the knowledge that they Future programme to ensure that we can build schools need to succeed in further education and the world of more effectively and cost-efficiently in the future. We work. Our coalition agreement sets out a progressive definitely will not halt projects that have been started, programme of reform to achieve those aims, based where diggers have been engaged and holes have been on the fundamental principles of more freedom for dug in the ground, as the Labour Government did when teachers and professionals, more choice for parents, the college building programme had to be put on hold more help for the most disadvantaged, and less bureaucracy because of “catastrophic mismanagement”. Many colleges and process. stood to lose hundreds of thousands of pounds. Indeed, If we are to effect real change and recast Britain’s the Association of Colleges said that some stood to lose education system as one of the best in the world, our millions following the abrupt cancellation of projects. It focus on raising standards in all schools, reforming the said that 24 colleges stood to lose between £2 million curriculum and securing the best and brightest for the and £5 million; indeed, 17 stood to lose more than teaching profession must be relentless. We must also £5 million. retain a focus on the school estate, ensuring that schools I know that the hon. Gentleman was not part of the provide an environment conducive to education, with previous Government—indeed, he was an effective and high-quality technology and facilities, space that supports constructive critic of them—so he cannot be blamed for different types of education—from one-to-one tuition what went wrong, and he is right to raise the issue of the to whole-year groups—and, importantly, a pleasant Barking and Dagenham BSF plans today. However, he environment where children want to be. I welcome will appreciate the financial backdrop against which the opportunity the hon. Gentleman has given us to this debate is being held—an inherited budget deficit of debate the issue, and congratulate him again on securing £156 billion. As a result, the previous Government had the debate. already committed themselves to reducing capital spending Building Schools for the Future was a flagship across Departments by more than 50%, with a reduction programme of the previous Government, who had high of 17.5% in each of the next three years. The right hon. ambitions to rebuild or refurbish every school in the Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls), the former country by 2023. Of course, there are many schools that Secretary of State for Education and now shadow need to be rebuilt and many are in a very poor condition. Education Secretary, admitted to the House that school With a rising birth rate in parts of the country, including, capital spending was not protected in those plans. Therefore, as the hon. Gentleman pointed out, his constituency, the hon. Gentleman’s first port of call should be the we will need to make more places available, and both shadow Secretary of State, in order to find out from those issues will require capital spending. We shall him what he had planned to do if their party had won clearly need to build schools in the future. the last general election. The hon. Gentleman rightly quoted the Prime Minister as saying that building schools for the future is something Jon Cruddas: I want to put on the record that we had we shall continue to do. However, that does not mean this row about the BSF plans in Barking and Dagenham that we must go through the bureaucratic and wasteful with the previous Government. There was a controversy procedures that were the previous Government’s approach. in the first phase of the BSF programme, in that we I understand that the process in Barking and Dagenham were on the list and were taken off it because of some started in 2007. Here we are in 2010 and the diggers difficulties with the imposition of academies. So this is have not yet moved in; £250 million was spent before a an argument we have had with Governments either side brick was laid or earth was moved. Of that, £60 million of the aisle. was spent on consultants or advisory costs. Let us be clear: the previous Government said they were spending Mr Gibb: I am grateful for that intervention and I will money on schools; but in the seven years since the bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman has said. He scheme was announced only 95 new schools have been also gives me an opportunity to correct something I built out of 3,500 secondary schools. In the current said earlier. I think that I gave a very disparaging view financial climate, where front-line services are under of the previous Government when I said they had pressure to do more with less, we cannot afford to direct completed only 95 schools in the seven years since the lavish amounts of money away from pupils, teachers project began; they actually completed 97. So, for and children’s services into the pockets of consultants underestimating their great achievement in completing and bureaucratic processes. 97 schools out of 3,500, I apologise and set the record My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for straight. Education stated in the debate on the Gracious Speech We will be looking extraordinarily sympathetically at that for the remainder of the financial year there will be two sets of circumstances as we review the BSF programme: no cuts in front-line funding for schools, Sure Start and deprivation and particular need. I know the projects in sixth forms. We have secured additional funding from Barking and Dagenham are very important to the hon. outside the education budget to fund the pupil premium, Gentleman and his constituents, and especially to the 129WH Building Schools for the Future 15 JUNE 2010 130WH (Barking and Dagenham) pupils and school staff who will be affected, but I am Constituency Boundaries (Islands) afraid that that is all I can say at this point; I cannot give specific guarantees at this time about particular projects. Nevertheless, I promise to keep in touch with 1.25 pm the hon. Gentleman as we continue to review capital Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): First, I take spending. I know that that will not be enough to satisfy this opportunity to congratulate my hon. Friend the him or his constituents, but I am afraid that that is all I Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), on his can say at the moment. appointment as Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office. I reiterate that capital programmes are important to I have known him for many years. The Prime Minister our programme of school improvement, but they must quickly recognised the many qualities that I know he be delivered efficiently and cost-effectively, and must possesses, and the people of the Forest of Dean also also be focused on where spending is most needed and knew a good thing when they saw it: they had the will have the most impact. wisdom to elect him in 2005, and again last month with an increased majority. I know that he will bring common 1.22 pm sense and good judgment to his office. Sitting suspended. I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss constituency boundaries for islands. Not many of us are greatly affected by the issue, but it is extremely important to those of us who are. Islands come in many shapes and sizes. There are those with a tiny population, such as the Scillies with scarcely 2,000 residents. There are islands joined to the mainland by road or rail, such as Anglesey and Hayling island, and even Portsmouth. Most important for this debate is that there are islands with significant populations that remain isolated, with no physical link to the mainland. They include Na h-Eileanan an Iar—more commonly known as the Western Isles—Orkney and Shetland, and my own constituency of the Isle of Wight. Last month’s election was fought on boundaries with average constituency sizes of 71,000 electors in England, 66,000 in Scotland, 56,500 in Wales and just over 63,000 in Northern Ireland. The UK average was 69,500. I agree wholeheartedly with the Minister that England as a whole is under-represented in the current system, particularly since devolution has introduced another layer of politicians in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. With roughly 110,000 electors, my constituency is the largest by quite a margin. The constituency of the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), whom I am glad to see here today, has fewer than 23,000. His, at a fifth of the size of mine, is the smallest constituency, again by a significant margin. The coalition Government intend to increase the size of constituencies generally, creating fewer, more evenly sized and, in the majority of cases, more populous ones. I understand that the aim is to have an average electorate of 77,000, which would reduce the number of MPs by 10% and cut the cost of politics. The principle of greater equality is good, the aim of reducing the cost of politics is laudable and, from experience, I know that it is perfectly possible to represent a large constituency. My noble Friend Lord Norton of Louth’s excellent report from the commission to strengthen Parliament found that larger constituencies may foster “a closer, longer-term relationship between member and constituents”. We must, however, remember and examine the practicalities We can learn from the wisdom of those who have looked at the issues in depth before us. The Boundary Commission last reported on the Isle of Wight constituency in 2007, using figures from 2000. The electorate in 2000 was 103,000, 33% larger than the average. The commission considered severing part of the island and putting it with a mainland constituency, but concluded that to do so would “disregard the historic and unique geographical situation” 131WH Constituency Boundaries (Islands)15 JUNE 2010 Constituency Boundaries (Islands) 132WH

[Mr Andrew Turner] There are good reasons why both the largest and smallest UK constituencies are island constituencies, and and those reasons should be respected. We should not “create confusion and a feeling of the loss of identity” simply disregard the work of those who have looked at the issues before, sacrificing workable and sensible proposals for islanders. It also stated that on the altar of principle, however good and well-intentioned “communications would be difficult both for the electorate and that principle might be. the Member of Parliament.” It might seem odd that I am arguing for more rather We were on the point, under the current system, of than less work than other Members of the House, while having two MPs, which I would have supported, but I at the same time arguing for the continued existence of understand that that proposition is no longer on the the smallest UK constituency. However, it is because I table. live on an island that I understand the unique nature of If the island had one MP with 77,000 electors, 32,000 islands. They are very special communities and special people or 12 electoral wards on the island would need places that need special consideration. I understand to be included with a mainland seat. I have looked at all that these matters are still being deliberated and that the possibilities. It could mean either a ferry from Ryde, final decisions have yet to be made about how the policy with a hinterland from Wootton to Arreton to Bembridge, is to be implemented. Will the Minister please give me or a ferry from Yarmouth, with a hinterland from an assurance that, when the Government move forward Cowes to Ventnor—the southern most point on the with plans to equalise constituency sizes, they will recognise island—or from Cowes, East Cowes and Newport. I the unique nature of island electorates? I hope that his have to say that all of those proposals are barmy. common sense and good judgment will applied in spades to this question. Experts from the Boundary Commission for Scotland have looked carefully over the years at the case for 1.36 pm merging the Western Isles with Skye. The commission found in 1981 that that would be “unworkable or intolerably Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) difficult”, and, in 2004, it came to the same conclusion, (SNP): Today, we see an alliance of islanders—an alliance saying that the arguments against change that was perhaps created by the Daily Mail. During the “remained as strong now as they were then.” election campaign, the newspaper sent one of its reporters, Mr Robert Hardman—perhaps all the reporters from To get anywhere near an electorate of 77,000 would the Daily Mail are hard men—to both Na h-Eileanan mean the Western Isles being lumped in with a huge an Iar and the Isle of Wight. Whether his aim was to part of the Scottish mainland. If including Skye in the create some mischief, I do not know—far be it from me constituency would prove “unworkable or intolerably to cast aspersions on such an august publication as the difficult”, how on earth would merging the Western Daily Mail—but we were chosen because I represented Isles with the mainland work in practice? the smallest constituency in terms of the number of Such difficulties are even more acute in Orkney and voters, and the Isle of Wight is, of course, the constituency Shetland, a constituency with a population of more with largest number of voters. The Daily Mail succeeded than 32,000. Meeting the new quota would likely entail in uniting us in a common cause. The largest and the a union with the nearest mainland constituency, Caithness, smallest numerical constituencies in the UK are of one Sutherland and Easter Ross. Such a drawing of boundaries mind: their islands are indeed special. would result in a constituency that was hundreds of The hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) miles from end to end. spoke eloquently and forcefully for his constituency. I Part of the problem is geographical. The only access will confine my remarks to my constituency, other than to the Isle of Wight is by sea. There is no tunnel, bridge to point out to the Minister that it is odd for a democracy or scheduled air service, and crossing the Solent can be to be looking to cut the elected element of Parliament expensive and time-consuming. The even bigger problem, while almost daily—certainly monthly—we have news however, is that islands and islanders are very different of further appointments to the unelected portion of from the mainland and mainlanders. Those who live on Parliament. Does that mean that, when the Government islands are, by definition, more insular. The word “insular” leave office, the percentage of Parliament elected by means being of or pertaining to an island or islands, but democratic means will be far smaller than when they it also means being detached, standing alone or isolated. entered office? Quite how that makes the UK look It is clear to me why the word is used in both ways, but internationally, other than like a laughing stock, I am one must live on an island to really understand. Many not certain. Quite how the Government feel about that, people on the Isle of Wight travel to the mainland only other than queasy, I shall not speculate. rarely. The Solent is much more of a barrier, both My constituency is the length of Wales. The Prime physical and psychological, than any other English Minister might want to give me a territory the size of county boundary. If any part of the island were to be the Yukon, but that would not serve voters well at all. merged with the mainland, it would be reasonable for Areas, of course, need coverage. When a population the mainland MP to live on the north island. After all, grows in an area, a constituency with a maximum that is where the majority of his constituents—about headage is usually created, obviously with some sensible 46,000—would live. He would not, however, be considered anomalies, such as the Isle of Wight. That is to ensure a part of the island community. I suspect that the hon. an equality of treatment so that all voters have the same Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar recognises that feeling kind of representation and access to their MP as voters in the communities that he represents. It would be a have in a more urban and populated setting. I speak very sad outcome if people were made to feel more particularly from my own perspective in Na h-Eileanan distant and remote from their elected representatives. an Iar. 133WH Constituency Boundaries (Islands)15 JUNE 2010 Constituency Boundaries (Islands) 134WH

To give the Minister a small example, last Friday I When researching for the debate, I was interested to conducted what I consider to be a small surgery on part note that, before the Great Reform Act of 1832, the Isle of one the islands in my constituency, on the west side of Wight was represented not as ably as it is now by my of Lewis—actually, we went down to Harris for part of hon. Friend, but by more Members of Parliament. it. We had an ordinary day. We covered 279 miles that Indeed, eight Members of Parliament represented it in Friday—a distance just a little longer than that between the House. The three boroughs of Newport, Newtown Glasgow and Liverpool. That is what I have to do to and Yarmouth each elected two Members of Parliament, serve people in a remote island rural setting. I mention and the rest of the island outside those boroughs was that just to give an idea of what has perhaps not been represented by the two county Members for Hampshire. considered when people look on a purely numerical The world has indeed moved on from a rather over- headage basis. represented island to one that is probably under-represented I think that it is right that people in rural areas have given the number of Members of Parliament, but the same services and access as those in an urban outweighed by the quality of its one Member of Parliament. setting. In the islands, we are used to a poor broadband service—British Telecom has a number of exchanges in My hon. Friend is right that the Government have set the area that it has not upgraded yet, although I hope out proposals for fewer and more equally sized that it will—and I would hate to see democracy and constituencies. He is also right in saying that no decisions people’s expectations of democracy reach the same have been taken. He said that the Government were standards. In a democracy, everybody requires equality planning on having a quota of 77,000 electors with a of treatment, representation and access to their MPs. 10% cut in the number of Members of Parliament. That was the policy set out by the Conservative party before Finally, I wish to make a more political and perhaps the election, but Ministers are currently considering more constitutional point. The Union is supposed to be both the size of the House of Commons and the a union between two nations; it does not mean having a electoral quota that flows from it. As yet, no decisions 50:50 split of MPs between Scotland and England, as have been taken by the coalition Government. I thought the Minister is no doubt aware. Obviously, as a Scottish that it was worth putting that information on the record National party Member, I would like there to be no in case people assumed that the Conservative party’s MPs at Westminster who represent Scottish constituencies, proposals were being automatically rolled forward. My but we live with the present situation and the way in hon. Friend welcomed the general thrust of our proposals which the cards have been dealt. In the meantime, I to reduce the number of Members of Parliament in the cannot allow what is proposed to proceed without House of Commons and to reduce the cost of politics. protest and without making common cause with the He is a demonstration, as are other hon. Members who Isle of Wight in the far south of England and alerting represent constituencies with larger than average electorates, the Government to the dangers of exactly what the that it is perfectly possible to represent them very ably in Prime Minister and his Liberal Democrat friends the House of Commons and make sure that they receive might do if they cut the representation of the highlands a good service. and islands. I am sure that the Government will not do that. They It is now worth picking up the point made by the hon. will reflect, particularly on the strong arguments made Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar about the unelected by the hon. Member for Isle of Wight, and act with House of Lords. He is right that several peers were thought and consideration. They will make sure that appointed to that House in the previous Government’s Scotland does not lose any more MPs, because that dissolution honours list and that more peers might be would be a retrograde step for people in the highlands created. He will also know that that my right hon. and islands and, as the hon. Gentleman pointed out Friend the Deputy Prime Minister has set up a cross-party earlier, it would be almost impossible to represent the Committee charged with bringing forward by the end of Western Isles and Skye. We hope that such a mistake is the year a draft Bill to introduce either a wholly or a not made, that the Minister will listen and that the right mainly elected second Chamber, which will deal with decision is reached. In the meantime, until the day of the issue that he highlighted about the number of unelected independence, I shall continue to make common cause Members in that House. Those proposals will be scrutinised with the hon. Member for Isle of Wight. by a Committee of both Houses and will be taken forward. The issue that the hon. Gentleman raises is 1.41 pm real, but it is in hand. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, It is also worth saying that, as my hon. Friend the Mr. Sheridan, in my first outing on this side of the Member for Isle of Wight said, the work on considering House—strange though it seems, but very welcome. I boundaries, setting the size of the House of Commons am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of and deciding on the guidance that the boundary Wight (Mr Turner) for his generous opening remarks commissioners will have as they set about their work and for how he represents his constituency so ably. I needs to be approached with great care. Many Members want also to mention, in passing, how he pronounced of Parliament have already been lobbying me on what the constituency of the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan they think the rules should be and making cases both in an Iar (Mr MacNeil) better than I just did. The hon. the House and privately for their own constituencies, Gentleman will remember when I tried to pronounce and I am listening to them intently. However, we must his constituency in the House of Commons four years balance against the concerns raised by my hon. Friend ago. I mangled it a bit then, but he gave me credit for at and the hon. Gentleman the fact that, at the moment, least trying rather than just copping out and calling it electors’ votes are worth different amounts depending the Western Isles so I am sure that he will forgive me if I on where they live. As my right hon. Friend the Deputy make a mess of it again. Prime Minister said in the main Chamber, it is the 135WH Constituency Boundaries (Islands)15 JUNE 2010 Constituency Boundaries (Islands) 136WH

[Mr Mark Harper] Boundary Commission can vary from that number—the margin, if I can put it like that; whether there are any ultimate postcode lottery that some electors’ votes are other considerations, as there are now, that it can take in effect worth more than others because it takes fewer into account; and the extent to which those other of them to elect a Member of Parliament. considerations, such as the island nature of constituencies and the geography, are allowed to override numerical Mr MacNeil: Surely the way to address that anomaly equality. We are currently considering those matters, is through proportional representation and perhaps the which we shall bring before the House. single transferable vote. Even if there are numerically even constituencies, some voters will still be worth an Mr MacNeil: May I extend an invitation to the awful lot more if they happen to be in a swing seat. In a Minister? If his mind is wavering and not fully made up safe seat, the power of the voter is not as great as it and he would like to come on a fact-finding mission, he would be in an area or a country where the single is more than welcome to be my guest in Na h-Eileanan transferable vote is used. an Iar. We could drive from my office to my house, which is a distance of about 150 miles, using two ferries, Mr Harper: I am sure that you, Mr Sheridan, would or we could get two flights. That would perhaps underline not want me to be tempted into a discussion of the the issue of geography in the Minister’s mind, because various electoral systems that we could have, so I will when a person is pondering something on paper, it may not be tempted by the hon. Gentleman. As he knows, not be understood as easily as it is during a five-hour when the Government introduce their Bill on the alternative drive or two flights. vote and boundaries, there will be ample opportunity in the House, both on Second Reading and in a Committee Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman tempts me with his of the whole House, to debate electoral systems. I am very generous invitation, and I will bear it in mind. sure that he will take part in those debates with his None the less, I understand the issues. I have been to the normal vigour and good spirits, so we shall leave that constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of question until then. Wight on a number of occasions, and I have grappled With regard to both the points that have been made, with the ferry, so I know how difficult it is to get to. One it is important, when we consider the rules and the of the other island constituencies affected is Orkney framework that will be set for boundaries, to consider and Shetland. I visited the Shetland islands a few years how Members of Parliament are able to do their jobs ago, and have spoke to the hon. Member for Orkney and the accessibility of their constituencies. I have and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) about the matter. I looked carefully at the constituencies that are entirely recognise the problems of constituencies that are accessible constituted of islands and those that have significant effectively only by air and at significant expense. Such islands as part of them, and it is worth saying that they points were made very ably by the hon. Gentleman, so I do raise a number of issues, which my hon. Friend and have an inkling of what the hon. Member for Na the hon. Gentleman outlined clearly and which Ministers h-Eileanan an Iar has to grapple with when he meets his are considering carefully. constituents in surgeries and has to visit different parts of his constituency. I will bear in mind his very generous We will consider carefully how the process of the invitation, but he can rest assured that I have a pretty boundary reviews will be undertaken. We will listen to good idea of the issues involved because of the visits colleagues and, when we have published our proposals that I have made to other island constituencies. This in a Bill, which we expect to introduce in the House will not just be a paper exercise that takes no account of before the summer recess, we will listen to colleagues’ the realities. The hon. Gentleman can also be reassured representations in the Chamber. They can be assured that Ministers considering the matter are constituency that it is a constitutional measure, so it will have its MPs who recognise the work that colleagues have to do Committee stage not in a Committee Room, but on the when they represent their constituents. We will think Floor of the House. Therefore, if hon. Members are not about our own constituencies and how those challenges happy with the proposals when we have published them, are magnified in the particular circumstances that were they will of course have a full opportunity to debate set out. them and raise them with Ministers on the Floor of the House. I hope that the two Members who have spoken will recognise that no decision has been taken. Their constituents Mr Turner: Did I hear the Minister say that there can be satisfied that they have very ably set out the would not be a Boundary Commission, or was that a unique nature of island constituencies and some of the misunderstanding on my part? challenges that they face in representing them both in the House and outside. Ministers will listen very carefully Mr Harper: No, there would be a Boundary Commission. to those arguments as we frame the legislation and as it The decisions for Ministers are on, first, the size of the is introduced on the Floor of the House. We will take House of Commons—the Government have yet to reach these very delicate matters forward with great care and a decision on that; we are considering the matter attention. I thank my hon. Friend and the hon. Gentleman carefully—and secondly the instructions and guidance for setting out those points and for giving the House the that the Bill will set out for the four Boundary Commissions opportunity to consider them at an early stage. for the four constituent parts of the United Kingdom as Question put and agreed to. they set about their work. That will be about the quota for the constituencies, the number of electors that each 1.52 pm constituency should have; the amount by which the Sitting adjourned. 45WS Written Ministerial Statements15 JUNE 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 46WS

derivatives and financial exit strategies. The Government outlined Written Ministerial their priorities for the reform of European regulation of financial services and the need to ensure international consistency and pursue non-discriminatory policies. The Council will now work Statements with the Commission to take forward the ambitious programme it has proposed. Tuesday 15 June 2010 d) Fiscal exit strategies The Council approved a report to the European Council on progress made in the development of an exit strategy for the TREASURY unwinding of budgetary stimulus measures introduced in response to the economic crisis. The Government support the strategy, ECOFIN which is in line with announced plans for an additional £6.24 billion spending cuts in the UK. The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): e) Preparation for the G20 Summit The Economic and Financial Affairs Council was held Ministers prepared an EU position for the June G20 summit in in Luxembourg on 8 June 2010. The Financial Secretary Toronto, where Presidents Van Rompuy and Barroso will to the Treasury represented the UK. represent the EU. The Government supported the agreed terms of reference, which reflect the agreements reached at the A-points 5 June G20 finance ministerial in Korea. The final position will Council agreed legislative A-points on VAT administrative be adopted by the European Council. co-operation regulation, regulation on the quality of statistics, and the European Investment Bank (EIB) external lending mandate. Given that Parliament has not had the opportunity to clear these documents, the HEALTH Government abstained on these items at ECOFIN and entered a statement to the minutes to that effect. Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Convergence reports and enlargement of the euro-area Affairs Council The Council took note of reports from the Commission and the European Central Bank on the fulfilment of economic and monetary union (EMU) convergence The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health criteria by the nine non-euro area member states with (Anne Milton): The Employment, Social Policy, Health an EMU derogation. It also noted a proposal for a and Consumer Affairs Council met on 7 and 8 June in Council decision aimed at enabling Estonia to adopt Luxembourg. The health and consumer affairs part of the euro as its currency on 1 January 2011, following the Council was taken on 8 June. I represented the UK. positive signals that it has met the entry criteria. The At the meeting, following an exchange of views on final decision will be taken at the July ECOFIN. the draft directive on patients’ rights in cross-border Stability and Growth Pact health care, political agreement between member states The Council adopted an opinion on an update by was reached. This text will now be forwarded to the Cyprus of its stability programme. There were also European Parliament for their consideration. discussions following announcements from Spain and Portugal of their fiscal consolidation measures. Ministers A policy debate on the proposed regulation on the from several member states updated the Council on provision of food information to consumers focused on their domestic austerity measures. The Government two aspects of the proposal. Member states considered outlined the savings package of £6.24 billion for financial the clarity of food labelling and discussed who might year 2010-11 announced on 24 May. bear responsibility for the information provided on Preparation of the 17 June European Council food labels. a) Broad economic policy guidelines Council conclusions on health inequalities and Ministers approved a report to the European Council on the reduction of salt intake were adopted. The presidency broad economic policy guidelines for Member States and the also provided an update on progress of the proposals in EU as a whole. The treaty on the functioning of the EU the pharmaceutical package. provides that member states are to regard their economic policies and promoting employment as matters of common concern and co-ordinate them within the Council. As these have not had a chance to complete scrutiny, the UK abstained, and the Government made clear they reserved their position HOME DEPARTMENT on some aspects of the substance of the proposals. The guidelines will go for discussion at the 17 June European Council before returning to ECOFIN for formal adoption in July. Vetting and Barring Scheme b) Europe 2020 Strategy ECOFIN agreed conclusions on the Europe 2020 strategy to feed in to discussions at the European Council. The conclusions The Secretary of State for the Home Department cover proposed headline targets for the strategy; the broad (Mrs Theresa May): I am announcing today that the economic policy guidelines; national bottlenecks to growth; commencement of voluntary registration with the new and enhanced economic policy co-ordination and timing. The vetting and barring scheme (VBS) in England, Wales Government will continue to encourage a focus on specific, meaningful steps the EU could take to promote growth. and Northern Ireland, which was due to begin on c) Progress report on financial reform 26 July, will be brought to a halt as of today. ECOFIN discussed a progress report on financial reform to The Government have made clear their intention to the European Council covering crisis management (including bring the criminal records and vetting and barring levies and funds), financial supervision, credit rating agencies, regimes back to common-sense levels. Until this remodelling 47WS Written Ministerial Statements15 JUNE 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 48WS has taken place, we have decided to maintain those Responsibility for the Office of Government Commerce aspects of the new scheme which are already in place, and its executive agency, Buying Solutions, will transfer but not to introduce further elements. from the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the Minister The safety of children and vulnerable adults is of for the Cabinet Office, and the organisations will become paramount importance to the new Government. We part of the Cabinet Office’s efficiency and reform group. will therefore maintain the current arrangements under Property functions in the Office of Government which the Independent Safeguarding Authority is able Commerce and the shareholder executive will combine to bar from “regulated activities” those considered into a single unit responsible for property efficiency and unsuitable to work with children or vulnerable adults, will be based in the shareholder executive within the and appropriate cases must be referred to them. Criminal Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. It will records checks will also remain available for those eligible report jointly to the Minister for the Cabinet Office and to receive them, and will continue to be required for to the Chief Secretary as part of the efficiency and certain posts where regulations are already in place. reform group. However it is vital that we take a measured approach in these matters. Vulnerable groups must be properly TRANSPORT protected in a way that is proportionate and sensible. South East Airports Task Force The remodelling of the VBS will ensure this happens. The terms of reference for the remodelling of the VBS and of the criminal records regime are currently The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip being considered and a further announcement will be Hammond): The Government believe that aviation makes made in due course. a vital contribution to the economy of this country and to the lives of our citizens. The aviation sector contributes some £11 billion to GDP and directly employs some JUSTICE 200,000 people. Its true economic value is much greater International Anti-Corruption Champion than this when we consider the importance of air travel to the global economy and to UK competitiveness. But we cannot simply allow growth to continue at the levels The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice it has in the past. Doing so risks unacceptable consequences (Mr Kenneth Clarke): On 10 June 2010 the Prime Minister in terms of noise and local air quality, quite apart from appointed me to become the Government’s international the global impacts in terms of CO2 emissions. anti-corruption champion. The continuation of this We need to start a new chapter in aviation policy—one central role demonstrates the coalition Government’s that promotes a competitive aviation industry, supporting clear commitment to transparency and accountability. UK economic growth, while recognising the need for The role is also in recognition of the significant cost of restraint. We have already begun that by making clear international corruption, both to individuals and to our our opposition to adding yet more runways at Heathrow, economy. The appointment of anti-corruption champion Stansted or Gatwick. Instead, we must explore different is a personal appointment by the Prime Minister. ways in which to improve the efficiency of these key As champion I will hold a key co-ordination role for components of our national transport infrastructure. Government and be answerable to Parliament on corruption Improving the passenger experience is at the heart of issues. I recognise that the interest and impact of corruption this Government’s vision for UK aviation. We announced is felt not only by all Government Departments but also in the Queen’s Speech our intention to reform the by British businesses and individuals, particularly those economic regulation of airports to deliver better outcomes working overseas. I will therefore be working closely for passengers. But I believe that there are also other with colleagues across Departments, devolved things that Government and the industry can do together, Administrations, law enforcement, prosecution authorities and so today I am announcing the establishment of a and regulatory agencies to ensure a coherent and joined-up South East Airports Task Force with key players from approach to combat international corruption. The across the industry to explore the scope for other measures champion role sends out a clear message that the UK to help make the most of existing airport infrastructure coalition Government will not tolerate bribery or corruption and improve conditions for all users. The group will be and that we will work together to stamp out these chaired by the Minister of State, Department for Transport, practices across the board. the right hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs Villiers) My first priority in this role will be to ensure the and its initial focus will be on action at our three biggest effective implementation of the Bribery Act 2010, legislation airports—Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted. which will help to achieve the highest in international I am confident that, by working closely with the standards and which demonstrates cross-party commitment aviation sector, alongside our regulatory reforms, this to the fight against bribery. will help deliver improvements for all. I will make further information on the detail of my role available to the House shortly. WALES Government of Wales Act 2006 (Section 104) PRIME MINISTER Office of Government Commerce The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): The National Assembly for Wales passed a resolution on 9 February 2010 calling for a referendum under the The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am today terms of the Government of Wales Act 2006. The First announcing a machinery of Government change affecting Minister notified my predecessor of this resolution on HM Treasury and the Cabinet Office. 17 February 2010. 49WS Written Ministerial Statements15 JUNE 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 50WS

I have a statutory duty to respond to that notice within the 120 days, and have set out my reasons. I have within 120 days of the date of the notice, either by also made clear that our aim is for a referendum to take laying a draft referendum order, or refusing to do so place before the end of the first quarter of next year. and giving reasons for the refusal. A copy of my letter to the First Minister is available I have today notified the First Minister that I am in the Vote Office and has also been placed in the House unable to lay a draft referendum order before Parliament of Commons Library.

11P Petitions15 JUNE 2010 Petitions 12P

And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Petition Mr Andrew Pelling, Official Report, 30 March 2010; Vol. 508, c. 789 .] Tuesday 15 June 2010 [P000810] OBSERVATIONS Observations from the Chancellor of the Exchequer: TREASURY Public Sector Employment The Government cannot comment specifically on The Petition of the people of Croydon, public sector positions in Croydon or in any other area of the country at this point. The location of positions is Declares that the Croydon economy depends on public inextricably linked to any decisions concerning efficient sector employment. use of the Government’s estate. Plans for the estate will The Petitioners therefore request that the House of need to be considered alongside other public spending Commons urges the Government to ensure that public issues that, as a new Government, we will be looking at sector positions are not transferred away from Croydon. in some detail over the coming months.

335W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 336W

Science and the Food and Environment Research Agency Written Answers to (FERA). FERA was created on 1 April 2009. Data for 2008-09 relates to its predecessor, the Central Science Questions Laboratory. £ Tuesday 15 June 2010 2008-09 2009-10 DEFRA 3,072,554 3,021,583 Rural Payments Agency 507,572 464,308 WALES Veterinary Laboratories 47,409 253,853 Agency Departmental Policy Advisers Food and Environment 264,280 378,777 Research Agency Centre for Environment, 773,747 798,000 Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Fisheries and Aquaculture Wales how many special advisers (a) she and (b) the Science Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (i) has appointed and (ii) plans to appoint. [325] Fisheries: Quotas Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many (a) political appointments and (b) other Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for personal appointments she has made since her Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent appointment; and at what estimated annual cost to the discussions she had (a) with the government of (i) Norway, (ii) Iceland and (ii) the Faroe Islands and (b) public purse. [362] at EU level on fishing quotas in relation to the North Mrs Gillan: I refer the hon. Members to the written Sea. [2382] ministerial statement made by the Prime Minister on 10 June 2010, Official Report, column 32WS. Richard Benyon: Neither I nor the Secretary of State have had recent, direct discussions with the Governments of Norway, Iceland or the Faroe Islands on North sea fishing quotas. DEFRA officials, however, have recently ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS taken part in discussions and negotiations on this matter with these countries, and participated in internal EU Departmental Pay meetings this year as follows: EU/Norway—28 to 30 May; Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for EU/Iceland—26 and 27 May; and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much was EU/Faroe Islands—14 and 15 January. paid in bonuses to civil servants in her Department in In addition, on 28 to 30 May this year, DEFRA (a) 2008-09 and (b) 2009-10. [2175] officials also took part in negotiations, involving delegations from the EU, Norway, Iceland and the Faroe Islands, Richard Benyon: An element of DEFRA’s overall on the management of mackerel stocks. pay awards is allocated to non-consolidated variable pay related to performance. These payments are used to Forests drive high performance and form part of the pay award for members of staff who demonstrate exceptional performance, for example by exceeding targets set or Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for meeting challenging objectives. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what criteria are being used by Forestry Commission England to assess Non-consolidated variable pay awards are funded the biodiversity and public benefits of the public forest from within existing pay bill controls, and have to be estate as part of a portfolio analysis. [2018] re-earned each year against pre-determined targets and, as such, do not add to future pay bill costs. The percentage Mr Paice: The Forestry Commission is using a range of the pay bill set aside for performance-related awards of attributes, each of which has either an individual or for the SCS is based on recommendations from the range of values. These give a points score to every area independent Senior Salaries Review Body. of woodland greater than 0.5 hectares on the public The following table provides details of how much was forest estate. These points are then used for the analysis. paid in non-consolidated performance pay in DEFRA For Natural Environment, which includes biodiversity, and its Executive Agencies in 2008-09 and 2009-10. the attributes being scored are: Data for DEFRA covers staff at grade 6 and below Ancient Semi-Natural Woodland and Plantations on Ancient in core-DEFRA and those Executive Agencies Woodland Sites. covered by the core-department’s terms and conditions Veteran Trees at the time i.e. Animal Health, Veterinary Medicines Directorate and the Marine and Fisheries Agency. It Sites of Special Scientific Interest also includes senior civil servants in core DEFRA and National Nature Reserve, Special Protection Area, Special its Executive Agencies (Animal Health, Veterinary Area of Conservation Medicines Directorate, Marine and Fisheries Agency, Presence of European Protected Species Rural Payments Agency, Veterinary Laboratories Agency, Bird of Prey breeding or feeding area Centre for the Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Forestry Commission butterfly priority area 337W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 338W

Red Squirrels Incinerators Other protected species Management plan for other specific species Mr Streeter: To ask the Secretary of State for National Park/Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans she has to provide guidance to local authorities on the use Scheduled Ancient Monuments of incinerators for municipal waste; and if she will For Quality of Life, which includes direct public make a statement. [1911] benefits, the attributes being scored are: Population (Number and distance to component part) Richard Benyon: A cross-Department energy from Freehold/Leasehold and Access waste (EfW) project led by DEFRA and the Department of Energy and Climate Change was established last Visitor Numbers year. The overarching aim of the project is to consider Visitor Facilities the role of EfW in waste management and renewable Local ’Friends’ and other groups using the woodland energy generation. As part of that, the project is considering Community Forest (including National Forest and Coalfield the current state of the EfW market, the relationship areas) between EfW technologies and feedstock choice, the Priority Areas (Index of Multiple Deprivation) contribution EfW can make to the green economy and how best to communicate EfW policy. We intend to Growth Areas bring forward policy proposals towards the end of 2010. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for It is the responsibility of local authorities not central Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans there Government to decide how waste is best managed in are for a repositioning exercise of the public forest their respective areas. Local authorities need to be free estate and programme of land sales by Forestry to adopt such technologies as part of an integrated Commission England. [2019] waste management solution if they deem it appropriate.

Mr Paice: The Forestry Commission is conducting a Wood: EU Action study into the future long-term sustainable role for the public forest estate. It is expected to make recommendations Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for later this year about any necessary changes to improve Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will make its ability to deliver relevant priorities in the Strategy for it her policy in discussions at EU level to support the England’s Trees Woods and Forests and contribute to introduction throughout the EU of severe penalties on other Government objectives. The outcome of the study those responsible for importing illegally logged timber. and the future role of the Forestry Commission will [2131] inform any repositioning. Mr Paice: The UK is negotiating legislation to eliminate Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for the flow of illegal timber onto the EU market—commonly Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when the Public called the Due Diligence Regulation. Agreement on this Forest Estate Strategic Plans will be revised to meet the at an EU level is expected in July. Inclusion of a English forestry strategy. [2020] prohibition to prevent illegal timber from entering the EU market would be an important component of this regulation which we are working to achieve. Infringements Mr Paice: Strategic plans are prepared at a forest of the final regulation will need to be sanctioned by district level. The current arrangements, put in place effective, proportionate and dissuasive penalties. The following the review of the approach in 2008, is that UK will put in place such penalties, and will encourage forest districts may delay their revision in order to take colleagues in the EU to do the same. into account the evolving operating environment. This included when to convert woods and forests to open Wood: Imports habitats, published in March 2010, and the results of the ongoing study of the long-term role of the public Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for forest estate in England, expected later this year. Currently Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she more than half the forest districts have competed a plans to take to prevent the importation into the UK of revised plan. timber obtained from illegal logging. [2335]

Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Paice: The UK is negotiating legislation to eliminate Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she plans the flow of illegal timber onto the EU market—commonly to produce the Public Forest Estate implementation called the due diligence regulation. plan for the Government’s policy on when to convert Agreement on this at an EU level is expected in July. woods and forests to open habitats in England. [2021] Inclusion of a prohibition to prevent illegal timber from entering the EU market would be an important component Mr Paice: When the Forestry Commission published of this regulation which we are working to achieve. the policy on when to convert woods and forests to The UK is also providing support to voluntary bilateral open habitats in England they indicated that they would trade agreements between timber producing countries develop the delivery mechanisms and publish a strategy and the EU. These agreements require timber imports for open habitats on the Forestry Commission Public from signatory countries to be licensed to prove that Forest Estate during 2010-11. they have been legally harvested. 339W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 340W

SCOTLAND Lynne Featherstone: The Government Equalities Office Departmental Pay is not proposing to cut any staff numbers in 2010-11. Mr Anderson: To ask the Minister for Women and Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Equality how many (a) front-line and (b) other staff Scotland how much was paid in bonuses to civil were employed by (i) the Government Equalities Office servants in his Department in (a) 2008-09 and (b) and (ii) each of its agencies in the latest year for which 2009-10. [2172] figures are available; and what her most recent estimate David Mundell: All staff in the Scotland Office are on is of the annual cost to the public purse of employing secondment from the Scottish Government or the Ministry staff of each type in that office. [543] of Justice. Staff may be eligible for non-consolidated performance payments in different ways. Firstly, through Lynne Featherstone: The Government Equalities Office end of year performance payments under their parent is a small policy department and our main function is bodies’ performance management arrangements. The supporting Ministers, for example in developing legislation, Scotland Office does not itself make the end of year rather than delivering front-line services. GEO employed awards and does not hold information centrally on end on average130 staff in 2009-10 in this role, at a cost of of year non-consolidated performance payments made £7.4 million. The Government Equalities Office does to its secondees. not have any agencies. Secondly, under the Special Bonus Scheme of the Departmental Official Cars Scottish Government and the Reward and Recognition Scheme of the MoJ, the Office may directly authorise Ian Austin: To ask the Minister for Women and non-consolidated performance payments (or in the case Equalities what her policy is on the use by Ministers in of the MoJ scheme, small and instantaneous awards, the Government Equalities Office of cars allocated e.g. vouchers) in recognition of special effort, achievement from (a) its pool and (b) the Government car pool and commitment. The following table shows the number which are manufactured in the UK; whether Ministers and cost of non-pensionable payments made under in that Office are entitled to request the use of a car these schemes. manufactured in the UK; and if she will make a statement. [2399] Total number of Total cost of payments Financial year payments (£) Lynne Featherstone: The Government Equalities Office 2008-09 8 2,900 does not have a pool of cars for use by its Ministers. 2009-10 17 2,925 Arrangements are changing following the publication Departmental Reviews of the new Ministerial Code which contains changes that affect ministerial entitlement to travel by Government Andrew Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for car. The code states that Scotland pursuant to the answer of 8 June 2010, “the number of Ministers with allocated cars and drivers will Official Report, column 137W, on Government be kept to a minimum, taking into account security and other relevant considerations. Other Ministers will be entitled to use departments: reviews, what reviews his Department is cars from the Government Car Service Pool as needed.” undertaking; and what the (a) purpose and (b) Cabinet Office has provided clarification on how the timescale of each is. [2578] code should be interpreted. The expectation is that David Mundell: My Department is not undertaking Ministers not in the Cabinet will use the pool service any reviews. It will contribute to other reviews being and that Cabinet Ministers who have an allocated car undertaken across Government in accordance with its will wish to consider how that car might be utilised by policy responsibilities. other Ministers within the Department before calls are made on the Government Car Service Pool. The Department for Transport and its Government WOMEN AND EQUALITIES Car and Despatch Agency are working with Departments Departmental Flags to effect the transition to the new arrangements. Departmental Official Residences Ian Austin: To ask the Minister for Women and Equalities what her policy is on flying the Union flag Ian Austin: To ask the Minister for Women and each day from each official building for which the Equalities whether any domestic properties in the gift Government Equalities Office is responsible. [1822] of the Government have been allocated to the use of Lynne Featherstone: The Government Equalities Office Ministers in her Department. [1794] is based in a building Eland House occupied by Communities and Local Government. CLG’s policy is Lynne Featherstone: No domestic properties have to fly the flag 365 days a year. been allocated to Ministers by the Government Equalities Office. Departmental Manpower Departmental Translation Services Mr Anderson: To ask the Minister for Women and Equality what her estimate is of the cost to the public Ian Austin: To ask the Minister for Women and purse of proposed reductions in numbers of non-front Equalities what (a) documents and (b) other line staff in the Government Equalities Office and its information for which (i) the Government Equalities agencies. [500] Office and (ii) its associated public bodies are 341W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 342W responsible are published or provided in the UK in Peter Luff: Watchkeeper is planned to be introduced languages other than English; for what reason each into Afghanistan incrementally during 2011. such publication is required to be made available in a language or languages other than English; and what Andrew Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for estimate she has made of the cost to the public purse of Defence what progress has been made towards the translation work so incurred in the latest period for awarding Afghan campaign medals to those who have which figures are available. [1770] served in the aero-med teams; and if he will make a statement. [2639] Lynne Featherstone: The Government Equalities Office has arranged for the following documents and information Mr Robathan: The case for awarding the operational to be published in Welsh: Equality Bill: service medal (Afghanistan) to aero-medical evacuation Framework for a Fairer Future; Equality Bill Consultation teams is being actively considered. (Age)—Easy read; and Public Appointments cards. The Government Equalities Office has also arranged Armed Forces Day for the Forced Marriage fact sheet in Urdu and Arabic; and the Female Genital Mutilation fact sheet in Somali. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State The translations were produced in the appropriate for Defence what plans he has to mark Armed Forces language because the documents provide advice or policy Day; and if he will make a statement. [2082] statements that could have a bearing on those people whose first language is not English. The estimate cost of Mr Robathan: Armed Forces Day is an annual the above translations is £19,251.24. opportunity for the nation to show their support for the The Women’s National Commission (WNC) has men and women of the armed forces community: from arranged for documents to be published in Welsh at the currently serving troops to service families; and from request of WNC partners as part of our regular outreach ex-service personnel to cadets. This year the national activities. In September-October 2007, two Welsh events event will take place in Cardiff and will begin with a were held which required the translation of some documents parade from Cardiff castle to the millennium centre for use on the day. This work amounted to £69.45 in followed by many other events, including: a drumhead total. In February 2008, event documentation was translated service; a fly past from the Battle of Britain Memorial into Welsh costing £178.70. Flight and the Red Arrows; a Campaign Reunion centre; displays and exhibitions from the Royal Marines The Equality and Human Rights Commission uses Commando display team; as well as many non-military, its Welsh Language Scheme to assess the need to publish family orientated activities, culminating with a firework documents in the Welsh language. Publications are assessed display in Cardiff Bay. on a case by case basis. Criteria used will include the extent to which publications are to be used by the Other initiatives include ‘Fly the Flag’, in which general public and stakeholders in Wales. Government Departments and local councils are encouraged to fly the Armed Forces Day flag from On average the Commission spends between £120,000 21 June until Armed Forces Day. Retail flags and window and £140,000 per year on all Welsh translation. stickers are available to members of the public, there The Commission rarely translates its publications will be uniform to work and uniform to school days, into other languages. This is again assessed on a case by and a special magazine is being produced. We are also case basis, with consideration given to the objectives of making use of the internet and are happy to be supported the project and needs of the target audience. For example, by platforms such as Twitter, Flickr and YouTube, the Commission’s recent inquiry into employment and among others. recruitment in the meat processing industry took evidence Across the country people are getting involved in from migrant workers who predominantly only spoke hundreds of different events. Further information about eastern European languages. Therefore additional these events or how individuals can organise their own translation of materials was undertaken. The cost of can be found at this translation was less than £5,000 in total. http://www.armedforcesday.org.uk/

Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State DEFENCE for Defence which events Ministers of his Department will attend in connection with Armed Forces Day; and Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations if he will make a statement. [2150]

Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Robathan: On current plans, the Secretary of Defence whether the Talisman route clearance system State for Defence will be attending the National Event is (a) fully operational and (b) being used. [2132] in Cardiff on 26 June; the Minister for the Armed Forces will be attending the events in Plymouth; the Peter Luff: The Talisman route clearance system is Minister for International Security Strategy will be being used in Afghanistan and has been fully operational attending the events in Nottingham while the Minister since April 2010. for Defence Equipment, Support and Technology will be attending the events planned in Manchester. I will be Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for attending a flag raising event in London on 21 June. Defence what the timetable is for the entry of the Ministers will continue to examine the possibility of Watchkeeper air system into service in Afghanistan. being involved in other events to show support for the [2517] service community where the opportunity arises. 343W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 344W

Armed Forces: Contraceptives Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) remains committed to the Army Recovery Capability, as set out Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence at the launch on 11 February this year. This new capability how much his Department has spent on condoms for marks a further step forward in the support to our members of the armed forces in each of the last five armed forces and will ensure the best possible care and years for which figures are available; and for what management is provided to our wounded, sick and reasons. [2377] injured personnel. The MOD has committed £30 million over the next Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence’s Defence four years to manage and deliver the Army Recovery Health Strategy (DHS) has as one of its targets the Capability in partnership with the Royal British Legion promotion of sexual health across the armed forces. and Help for Heroes, who have both generously committed This makes an important contribution to the aim of £20 million towards the operational and build costs. maximising the number of personnel fit to perform the The Army Recovery Capability will bring together a tasks required of them. Within the Surgeon General’s range of separate services, such as the NHS, the charitable Department (SGD), the Defence Sexual Health Working sector and other Government Departments, into a single Group provides guidance and promotes a range of coherent programme and will either return individuals promotional initiatives. to duty or prepare them for civilian life, however long Since August 2008, SGD has held a health promotion that takes. For those who leave the armed forces, it will budget to support the DHS, and has spent a total of provide the right training, civilian employment advice around £80,000, £45,000 in 2008-09 and £35,000 in and work placements. 2009-10, on provision of condom machines in service A key element of the concept is the provision of clubs and messes, as well as on individual packages of purpose built centres. These will build on the experiences condoms for distribution throughout the armed forces. of the Pathfinder Centre that was established in Edinburgh Further campaigns may have been funded by the single on 17 August 2009. It is currently envisaged that there services, or even more locally at unit level, but expenditure will be four centres, in Colchester, Catterick, Tidworth/ in these areas is not readily available and could only be Bulford and in Edinburgh. They will be located near or provided at disproportionate cost. in Army garrisons to allow personnel the use of Army facilities and support from the Army. Members of all Armed Forces: Dogs three services will be able to access them. Armed Forces: Horses Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many dogs of each breed there are in each service of the armed forces; and what functions they carry out. David Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for [2056] Defence (1) how many times horses in the armed forces have been transported abroad in the last 12 months; Mr Robathan: There are 399 military working dogs and for what reasons; [2057] across the armed forces. Animal records are kept by (2) how many horses there are in each of the armed function rather than by breed. Information by breed services; and how many carry out each function. [2058] could be provided only at disproportionate cost, but breeds used are primarily labradors, German shepherd Mr Robathan: Neither the Royal Navy nor the Royal dogs, mallenots and English springer spaniels. The numbers Air Force own any horses. There are a total of 485 horses of dogs are split across the services as follows: in the Army, all of which are used for ceremonial purposes. 71 of these are based at the Defence Animal Number Centre for training and to provide a reserve to cover Navy Army RAF injury and sickness.

Protection 0 71 159 In the last 12 months horses have been transported Search 0 111 58 abroad twice. A breakdown is shown in the following table: There are a further 503 dogs within the Ministry of Defence Police and Guarding Agency and other guarding Date Purpose Number organisations. July 2009 Basle Military Tattoo 29 October 2009 Abu Dhabi International 30 David Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Equestrian Exhibition Defence whether dogs are permitted in officers’ messes; In both cases there was no additional charge to the and if he will make a statement. [2060] public purse as costs were met by the event organisers. Mr Robathan: It is for the local commander to establish Armed Forces: Housing clear guidelines on the keeping of pets in messes. Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Armed Forces: Health Services how much his Department spent upgrading single living service accommodation in each of the last five Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for years. [2642] Defence what plans he has for the future of the Army Recovery Capability; and if he will make a statement. Mr Robathan: As part of a £1.4 billion investment [2637] programme, since 2003 some 40,000 new or improved 345W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 346W single living accommodation (SLA) bed-spaces have of Health and devolved Administrations, with support been delivered. A further 20,000 are planned by 2013, from the Ministry of Defence, are currently undertaking subject to future funding decisions. community mental health pilots for ex-service personnel The programme is being delivered through various at six NHS trusts across the UK. The final pilot in initiatives across the Department, including private finance Scotland is due to be completed in April 2011. initiative projects where SLA improvements are only Initial findings suggest that a variety of different one element of the work. Exact expenditure by year approaches can be used to meet ex-service personnel cannot be separately identified and could be provided needs including optional pathways into care not dependent only at disproportionate cost. on traditional GP referrals; that NHS processes and interventions benefit from medical personnel with an Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence understanding and interest in veterans and who are able what plans he has for the future of the Armed Forces to carry out rigorous client assessment and case formulation. Shared Equity scheme; and if he will make a statement. MOD has provided some £500,000 towards the setting [2644] up and evaluation of the pilots. Evaluation of the pilots Mr Robathan: The pilot of the Armed Forces Home will be undertaken in the autumn. Subject to the findings, Ownership Scheme is due to last four years. The Ministry best practice will be identified and will provide input for of Defence will continue to monitor and evaluate the planning future provision by the NHS of mental health scheme through the Homes and Communities Agency. services across the UK from 2011-12. Plans to continue beyond the pilot will be determined Armed Forces: Royal Household by take-up rates, feedback as to whether the scheme meets the aspirations of service personnel, value for money and affordability. Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many armed forces personnel of each rank from Andrew Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for each service are attached to the Royal Household; and Defence how much his Department (a) spent in each at what cost in the latest period for which figures are of the last five years and (b) intends to spend in each available. [2035] of the next two years upgrading armed forces housing. [2647] Mr Robathan: In order to provide service knowledge and assistance to six senior principal members of the Mr Robathan: The following has been spent upgrading royal family in their service appointments, 13 members service family accommodation properties in the last five of the armed forces are permanently attached to the financial years: royal household at a total cost of approximately £960,000 per annum. Each post is rotational through Financial year Spend (£ million) the three services. The current breakdown is as follows: 2005-06 32.4 1 Wing Commander (RAF) 2006-07 16.4 1 Lieutenant Commander (RN) 2007-08 16.9 1 Major (Army) 2008-09 35.5 1 Captain (Army) 2009-10 64.0 1 Warrant Officer Class 2 (Army) While the Department plans many more upgrades in 1 Staff Sergeant (Army) future years, expenditure on this, as with other areas of 1 Petty Officer (RN) defence spending, will be subject to the future funding 1 Lance Sergeant (Corporal) (Army) decisions. 2 Corporal (Army) The coalition Government will look at whether there 1 Corporal (RAF) is scope to refurbish the armed forces’ accommodation 2 Lance Corporal (Army). from efficiencies within the Ministry of Defence. Armoured Fighting Vehicles Armed Forces: Mental Health Services Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Mike Gapes: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many (a) Mastiff, (b) Ridgeback and Defence what progress has been made in the review of (c) other armoured vehicles are on order; and what the the six NHS mental health pilot schemes for former timetable is for their entry into theatre. [2520] armed forces personnel; when he expects to publish the conclusions of the review; and what plans he has to Peter Luff: The following Mastiff, Ridgback and allocate funding in support of the review’s conclusions. other armoured vehicles are on order: [2648] Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for Vehicle On order Defence what plans he has for the future of the six Warthog 101 NHS mental health pilot schemes for former armed Talisman Mastiff 2 1 forces personnel; and if he will make a statement. Talisman Buffalo 1 [2636] Talisman high mobility excavator 4 (HMEE) Mr Robathan: The Government are committed to Ridgback 20 providing effective, through-life, mental health services Mastiff 32 for our service and ex-service personnel. The Department 347W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 348W

Peter Luff: In December 2009, the Ministry of Defence Vehicle On order announced the intention to procure 22 new Chinook Wolfhound 48 helicopters. The date for entry into service of the first Husky 30 Chinook will be confirmed as part of the main investment decision later this year, although the first ten of the new The figures are limited to complete platforms and do Chinook are planned to be delivered during the course not include enhancements to existing vehicles. The figures of 2012 and 2013. A contract valued at £68 million for used represent the number of armoured vehicles on development and long lead component manufacture contract less those vehicles reported as already having was awarded to Boeing in March 2010 and up to the been delivered to the Ministry of Defence as at 10 June end of May work to the value of approximately £8 million 2010. has been completed. Details on the timetable for delivery of entry into Defence theatre are being withheld as the information is likely to prejudice the capability, effectiveness or security of the armed forces. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence which defence projects are awaiting approval. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for [2539] Defence what the timetable is for delivery of the second batch of light patrol protected vehicles; and if he will Peter Luff: The Government are reassessing spending make a statement. [2543] approvals granted between 1 January 2010 and the general election to ensure that they offer good value for Peter Luff: Industry responses to the invitation to money and are consistent with the Government’s priorities. tender for the initial batch of light protected patrol This includes a number of approvals relating to Defence vehicles (LPPV) are due to be returned on 15 June. As a equipment projects and further announcements will be contract for the LPPV requirement has yet to be let, made in due course. delivery details cannot be confirmed at this stage as they are still subject to commercial negotiations. Delivery Defence Animal Centre of a second batch of LPPV will also be subject to commercial negotiations once the full requirement has Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence been refined. what his plans are for the future of the Centre for Defence Animals at Melton Mowbray; and if he will Astute Class Submarines make a statement. [2036]

Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Robathan: Under current plans the Defence Animal Defence what the timetable is for the delivery of each Centre at Melton Mowbray will continue to provide Astute class submarine; and how many have been training for all military working animals and their ordered in the last five years. [2516] handlers. Peter Luff: Since June 2005, contracts have been Defence Medical Services awarded that relate to three Astute class submarines. These are as follows: Mike Gapes: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what plans he has for the relocation of Boat Contract Date Defence Medical Services to Lichfield; and if he will 4 Long lead items May 2006 make a statement. [2649] 4 Initial build May 2007 5 Long lead items December 2007 Mr Robathan: The relocation of elements of the Defence Medical Services, namely Headquarters Surgeon 5 Initial build March 2010 General (HQ SG) and major components of the Joint 6 Long lead items March 2010 Medical Command (JMC), is proceeding to plan. The The Strategic Defence and Security Review will define new HQ, named Coltman House, has been built and is the future shape and role of the armed forces and the now fully occupied. Alongside HQ SG, the elements of equipment that they will need. The impact on any the JMC now at Whittington comprise the Defence specific equipment projects, including the Astute Medical Group (DMG) and JMC HQ (previously located programme, will be announced in due course. Furthermore, at Gosport); Director Healthcare (previously located in the Astute programme is currently being re-baselined, London); Defence Dental Service (previously located at so the delivery timetable can only be confirmed once RAF Halton); and the Defence Postgraduate Medical detailed joint planning and cost analysis work has been Dean (previously located in Birmingham). completed. We anticipate announcing a preferred bidder for the next phase of the project, known as “Increment 2”, this Chinook Helicopters summer. This will include new training facilities, a new learning centre, a new lecture theatre, new messes for Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for officers and for warrant officers and senior NCOs, and Defence what the timetable is for the entry into service a new junior ranks dining and leisure facility.“Increment 3”, of the first of the new Chinook helicopters; and how running in parallel with “Increment 2”, will provide much has been spent from the public purse on the modern living accommodation, and is being run as part development of the new Chinook helicopters in the last of the MOD-wide Project SLAM (Single Living five years. [2521] Accommodation Modernisation). 349W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 350W

Departmental Official Hospitality Nick Harvey [holding answer 14 June 2010]: Under current plans the relocation of Defence Training John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Rationalisation elements at HMS Sultan will take place Defence what budget his Department has allocated for by 2020. The appointment of military staff to posts in entertainment, including alcohol, in each of the next St Athan will be conducted through the normal military three years. [1319] system nearer to the move of HMS Sultan. Civilian Mr Robathan: We use official entertainment to pursue staff currently working at HMS Sultan will transfer UK security policy interests, facilitate a wider public across to Metrix at the start of the contract in 2011 and understanding of the armed forces, and enhance therefore they will be Metrix employees when the move professional contacts within the UK and with other to St Athan occurs in 2015 at the earliest. Civilian staff nations. Expenditure on official entertainment must be have yet to be approached to determine who will wish to modest and is incurred according to business need. move to St Athan; that consultation will take place nearer the time. Expenditure in each of the last three years has been approximately £4 million. Departmental expenditure Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for plans for 2011-12 and beyond have not yet been agreed, Defence if he will estimate the cost of moving HMS but we expect the amount spent to reduce. Sultan School of Navy Engineering to RAF St Athan Currently no new official entertainment can be arranged in Wales. [2206] without the prior approval of nominated senior civil servants. Peter Luff [holding answer 14 June 2010]: Under Ex-servicemen: Military Decorations current plans HMS Sultan will be the last training organisation to move to St Athan which will occur by Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State 2020. At this early stage in the development of the for Defence how many veterans’ lapel badges have been project, it is not possible to provide the specific costs issued to former members of the armed forces to date. relating to the move. [2083] Military Aircraft Mr Robathan: As of 9 June 2010, 790,650 veterans lapel badges have been issued to former members of the Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for armed forces and their entitled dependants since their Defence how many C-17 Globemaster Aircraft have introduction on 10 April 2004. been delivered for use by the armed forces in the last Ex-servicemen: Radiation Exposure five years. [2518]

Andrew Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for Peter Luff: In the last five years two C-17 Globemaster Defence (1) what steps he plans to take on the issue of aircraft have entered service with the RAF. There are a nuclear test veterans; and if he will make a statement; total of six aircraft in service with a seventh expected to [2638] enter service in January 2011 against an approved in-service (2) what his latest assessment is of research date of May 2011. undertaken into the health of nuclear test veterans and their families. [2640] Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what change there has been in the number of Mr Robathan: This Government recognise and are UK military airframes available to commanders in the grateful to all the service personnel who participated in last three years. [2519] the British nuclear testing programme. Their contribution ensured that the UK was equipped with an appropriate Peter Luff: Officials are collating the information nuclear deterrent during the cold war which, thankfully, requested, across the armed forces, and I will write to we never needed to use. the hon. Member shortly when this work is complete. MOD has previously commissioned considerable research into investigating health issues relating to nuclear test Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for veterans. Defence when he expects the seventh C-17 We will continue to look at any health issues raised by Globemaster 111 aircraft to enter into service. [2542] nuclear test veterans. We are currently considering a health needs audit of nuclear test veterans’ health needs. Peter Luff: The seventh C-17 Globemaster III aircraft The aim is for this project to be of practical relevance to is expected to enter service with the RAF in January veterans with results delivered to a reasonable time 2011 against an approved in-service date of May 2011. scale. The assistance and support provided by the British Nuclear Test Veterans Association in this process is Military Aircraft: Helicopters greatly appreciated and we will continue to work with them going forward. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for HMS Sultan Defence how many helicopters are under order from his Department; and when he expects them to be Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for delivered into theatre. [2541] Defence how many (a) civilian and (b) military staff at HMS Sultan School of Navy Engineering have Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence has 62 new Lynx informed his Department that they will not move to Wildcat helicopters on order from Augusta Westland. RAF St. Athan; and what the estimated cost is of 34 Lynx Wildcat (Army variant) are due to be delivered replacing them with equivalent personnel. [2205] incrementally between 2012 and 2016, with the remaining 351W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 352W

28 Lynx Wildcat (Navy variant) being delivered between Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for 2013 and 2017. Subject to operational requirements, the Defence whether the exchange programme between the Lynx Wildcat should be available for deployment to Ministry of Defence Police and Guarding Agency theatre in 2015. Special Escort Group and the United States Office of On 15 December 2009, the previous Defence Secretary Secure Transportation remains in force; how many (a) announced the intention to buy an additional 22 new US and (b) UK staff have undertaken exchange visits Chinook as part of a new Rotary Wing Strategy. These under the terms of the programme; and whether the aircraft are not yet on contract. programme took place under the auspices of the 1958 US-UK Mutual Defence Agreement. [2042] It should be noted that under the Strategic Defence and Security Review, work has been set in hand to review all major equipment and support contracts to Mr Gerald Howarth: There is no formal exchange ensure the future programme is coherent with future programme. The Ministry of Defence Police and Guarding defence needs and can be afforded. Agency Special Escort Group and United States Office of Secure Transportation (OST), who have similar national Military Decorations roles, have, over the last five years taken part in short visits and meetings to share best practice and to discuss Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for matters of common interest. Defence if he bring forward proposals to review the During this period, 10 Special Escort Group Personnel case for a National Defence Medal; and if he will make have visited OST. The number of OST personnel who a statement. [2514] have visited the UK is not held in the format requested. However, I can confirm that the visits took place under Mr Robathan: The Government have announced its the auspices of the 1958 UK/US Mutual Defence intention to conduct a review of the rules governing the Agreement. award of medals. However, there are no current plans specifically to review the case for a National Defence Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Medal. Defence if he will place in the Library a copy of the Ministry of Defence Guard Service: Finance Defence Nuclear Safety Regulator’s inspection programme for 2010. [2047] Sandra Osborne: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what recent estimate he has made of the cost Peter Luff: There is no overarching Defence Nuclear to the public purse of the Ministry of Defence Guard Safety Regulator (DNSR) annual inspection programme. Service. [1901] Instead, each of the bodies or activities regulated by the DNSR have specific regulatory intervention strategies Mr Robathan: The forecast cost of the Ministry of and plans in place, which are tailored to their individual Defence Guard Service for the current financial year is circumstances. £112 million. Radioactive Materials: Transport Nuclear Weapons

Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether the US-UK Mutual Defence Defence how many operations involving the movement Agreement will be renewed during the life of this of defence nuclear materials the Ministry of Defence Parliament; and when discussions on renewal of the Police and Guarding Agency Special Escort Group agreement are scheduled to commence. [2037] undertook during 2009-10. [2048]

Mr Gerald Howarth: While no expiry date applies for Peter Luff: These details relate to the operational the agreement as a whole, Article III bis of the Agreement, programme for transporting defence nuclear materials. an article relating to the transfer of Materials and I am therefore withholding the requested information, Equipment which was introduced in 1959, is periodically because its release would, or would be likely to, prejudice reviewed. It was last reviewed in 2004 and expires in national security. December 2014. At this stage, no specific timetable for any discussions on a further extension has been agreed. Copies of the 1958 Mutual Defence Agreement and its subsequent amendments are in the Library of the ATTORNEY-GENERAL House. Members: Correspondence Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence on what date the next stocktake meeting between the Government and the US administration Keith Vaz: To ask the Attorney-General for what under the 1958 Mutual Defence Agreement is reasons a reply has not been sent to the letter from the scheduled to take place; and where the meeting will be right hon. Member for Leicester East concerning held. [2041] Mr Martin Wheelwright and the Serious Fraud Office. [1999] Mr Gerald Howarth: Arrangements have not been finalised but it is intended that the next stocktake The Solicitor-General: A letter was sent to the right meeting will take place in mid September in the US. hon. Member for Leicester East on 9 June 2010. 353W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 354W

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what consular and Afghanistan: Peace Negotiations diplomatic vehicles his Department has purchased since 12 May 2010; and at what cost. [2115] Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he received Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office on the recent peace talks held by tribal leaders in has purchased no consular and diplomatic vehicles in Kabul; and if he will make a statement. [1949] the UK since 12 May 2010. Records relating to the purchase of vehicles by our missions overseas is not Alistair Burt: The UK welcomed the Consultative held centrally and to obtain the information would Peace Jirga held in Kabul on 2-4 June 2010 as an incur disproportionate cost. important and positive step on the path towards concluding an enduring political settlement. The Jirga’s declaration Departmental Public Expenditure called on the insurgents to put an end to the fighting and begin a process of negotiation. We are pleased that Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign the Government of Afghanistan now has a mandate to and Commonwealth Affairs when and in what form he take this forward. We hope that the Jirga marks the plans to publish a list of all items of expenditure by his start of a comprehensive and genuinely representative Department over £25,000. [276] political process that engages the Afghan people. The UK will support the Government of Afghanistan in Alistair Burt: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister this effort. has written to Cabinet Ministers reiterating transparency commitments made in the coalition programme for Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign government, and setting out a timetable for achieving and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has sought to them. In particular, certain new items of central make contact with Taliban leaders to hold peace talks. Government spending over £25,000 to be published [2002] online from November 2010. We are working with our colleagues across Government to come up with a consistent Alistair Burt: No. Enduring stability in Afghanistan approach to this for all UK spend. will require a political process that is led by the Afghans themselves, in parallel to the military and development Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for effort. Towards that end, the UK welcomed the Consultative Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the Peace Jirga held in Kabul on 2-4 June 2010 as a step on answer of 7 June 2010, Official Report, columns the path towards concluding a lasting political settlement. 23-24W, on departmental public expenditure, what changes he expects to make to his Department’s Antarctic programme spend in 2010. [2107]

Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for Alistair Burt: As per my reply of 7 June 2010 to the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), Official plans to take to introduce legislation on the Antarctic Report, columns 23-24W, my right hon. Friend the following the consultation on the draft Antarctic Bill. Foreign Secretary is currently leading a review of [2112] programme spend within the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Until the review is complete, it would be premature Mr Bellingham: The Government announced their to speculate on any likely changes to Foreign and legislative programme in the Queen’s Speech and will Commonwealth Office programme spend. consider other legislative priorities in due course. Diplomatic Service: Housing Departmental Official Cars Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make it Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many his policy to ensure that members of the Diplomatic UK-based officials in his Department have the use of Service pay back to the public purse any increase in the an official car and driver. [2114] value of their properties in the UK rented out while serving abroad. [1887] Mr Bellingham: No UK-based officials in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) have a dedicated car Alistair Burt: No. The arrangements that employees or driver. of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office make for FCO Services, a Trading Fund of the Foreign and their private housing in the UK is a matter for them and Commonwealth Office, operate a small pool of vehicles there would be no legal basis for introducing such a and security cleared drivers used mainly for transportation policy. of diplomatic bags and other classified material. Certain senior officials (including the Permanent Under- EU Countries: British Nationals Abroad Secretary) are able to draw on this pool for official and operationally necessary travel, on a pay for use basis Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for with bookings made in advance. Use of the FCO Services Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many British car pool is subject to operational need and governed by nationals are resident in each of the member states of strict internal guidelines. the EU. [1723] 355W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 356W

Mr Lidington: The number of British nationals resident Inter-Institutional Relations and Administration. The in the member states of the EU totals 1,830,105. The Government are taking forward the ‘success in the EU latest figures available were collected in March 2007 and project’ aimed at the increasing the number of British are as follows: nationals working in the European Union institutions. Initiatives under the project include the relaunch of the Number European fast stream and working closely with the European Personnel Selection Office, EPSO, in the UK Austria 7,369 to encourage more British nationals to undertake the Belgium 39,867 EU entrance exams—the Concours. The project is also Bulgaria 1,700 seeking to improve the mechanisms for secondments Cyprus 60,000 from the UK civil service to the EU institutions. I will Czech Republic 3,183 shortly be considering options for next steps for the Denmark 13,183 project. Estonia 220 Finland 4,350 European Parliament France 381,000 Germany 115,554 Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for Greece 31,470 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he raised Hungary 2,640 the question of the European Parliament’s seat in Ireland 112,548 Strasbourg with his French counterpart on his recent Italy 71,990 visit to Paris. [1732] Latvia 400 Lithuania 250 Mr Lidington: I discussed the matter with my French Luxembourg 4,480 counterpart in our first bilateral. I also put forward the Malta 6,000 Government’s position during my first visit to the European Netherlands 73,600 Parliament on 1 June. Poland 2,531 Portugal 34,624 European Union: Parliamentary Scrutiny Romania 6,000 Slovakia 1,000 Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for Slovenia 157 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he plans Spain 840,989 to bring forward proposals for amending the House’s Sweden 15,000 Scrutiny Reserve Resolution for the European Scrutiny Committee. [1727] In January 2009 the Foreign and Commonwealth Office commissioned a study, “Making the most of the Mr Lidington: This Government want to increase British Diaspora” by the Institute of Public Policy democratic and parliamentary control, scrutiny and Research. This study includes and estimate of the number accountability over EU decision making. The Government of British citizens abroad by country and will be published attach great importance to allowing the Parliament to and available online at be able to scrutinise EU business in good time. Getting http://www.ippr.org.uk/publicationsandreports the scrutiny system right is a top priority for us. We expect to engage with the European Scrutiny Committee on Monday 28 June. on the Scrutiny Reserve Resolution as soon as the Committee has been established. EU Institutions Falkland Islands: Oil Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for plans to take to increase the number of civil service fast Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment streamers working in European Union institutions. he has made of the likelihood of the presence of [2336] commercially extractable quantities of oil in Falklands Islands waters. [1726] Mr Lidington: This autumn will see the first intake of a relaunched Civil Service European fast-stream. European Mr Jeremy Browne: Hydrocarbons exploration resumed fast stream candidates will take up positions in the civil in Falkland Islands waters in February 2010. Rockhopper service, with a view to them undertaking the entrance Exploration announced an oil discovery in their Sea exams for the European Institutions—the Concours— Lion prospect in the North Falklands Basin on 6 May before the end of 2012. 2010. This well has been suspended for future testing. So far, there has been no confirmation of any find of Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for hydrocarbons in commercially viable quantities. Exploration Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is continuing. plans to take to increase the number of British nationals working in European Union institutions. Government Hospitality: Wines [2337] Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Mr Lidington: I have discussed this issue with Cathy and Commonwealth Affairs what guidance is issued to Ashton, the High Representative of the Union for Government departments on the use of wine from the Foreign Affairs and Security and Vice President of the Government Wine Cellar; and if he will make a Commission and Maros Sefcovic, Commissioner for statement. [1761] 357W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 358W

Mr Bellingham: Government Hospitality (GH) does alongside his European Union colleagues. We have raised not issue guidance to Departments on the use of wines the issue bilaterally with the Pakistani authorities, including from the cellar except as part of the overall service with the Ministries for Minorities and of the Interior. offered by Government Hospitality. All Ministers and Palestinians: International Assistance Departments are advised of the availability of the GH service soon after the appointment of the Government. Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign discussions he has had with the Middle East Quartet and Commonwealth Affairs what the cost to the public on securing free access to Gaza for the purposes of purse was of bottles of wine purchased for the providing humanitarian aid, construction material and Government wine cellar since 6 May 2010. [1942] other non-military supplies. [1990] Alistair Burt [holding answer 14 June 2010]: Both my Mr Bellingham: Government Hospitality (GH) in right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Protocol Directorate of the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary have discussed these issues recently with their Office has responsibility for the management of the Israeli counterparts. We also continue to discuss these stock in the Government wine cellar. Apart from beverage issues with our international partners, including during wines that are bought on an ad hoc basis, GH usually the Foreign Secretary’s recent visits to EU capitals—and buys new stock on two or three occasions each year, as with Quartet Representative Tony Blair. We welcome advised by the GH Advisory Committee for the Purchase Quartet consideration of these important issues. of Wine. GH buys wines young, when first available in the retail market and relatively less expensive, and stores Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for them until they are ready to use. It purchases throughout Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he the year according to its requirements, market rates, has received on the establishment of an international availability and value for money. Since 6 May 2010 investigation into the interception of the Free Gaza Government Hospitality has spent £17,698 on new stock movement flotilla. [1992] for the cellar. None of these wines has yet been used. Alistair Burt [holding answer 14 June 2010]: We have Careful management of the Government wine cellar underlined the need for a full, credible, impartial and enables GH to provide wine for high profile events at independent investigation into the events of 31 May. We significantly below the current market rate, making have made clear that we want to see a process that substantial savings for the taxpayer. Government Hospitality ensures full accountability and commands the confidence is also able to recoup money from other Government of the international community. Departments for events it manages on their behalf, helping to offset the costs of new stock. In financial Israel has launched an internal military investigation year 2009-10 GH was able to reclaim £47,000 of the and announced on 14 June a separate inquiry headed by total annual expenditure on the cellar of £80,662. This former Supreme Court judge Yaakov Tirkel and including was itself a reduction on the 2008-09 figure of over David Trimble and Ken Watkins as international observers. 30%. This is a positive step. We will await details of the inquiry’s conduct and findings before drawing further Pakistan: Religious Freedom conclusions. UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has also announced Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for an inquiry panel, led by former New Zealand Prime Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what response his Minister Geoffrey Palmer, though no further details Department made to reports of attacks on two have been announced on the membership or composition Ahmadiyya Muslim mosques in Lahore on 28 May of this panel. 2010. [2490] Passports: Fraud

Alistair Burt: The UK shares the deep concern felt Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for about these terrible attacks which killed over 90 people, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assurances and injured over 100. On 28 May 2010, my right hon. he has received from the government of Israel that it Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and will not sanction the misuse of British passports. [2515] Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Hague) said Alistair Burt: I have not yet received any formal “the British Government utterly condemns the attacks in Lahore, assurance from Israel. An assurance that British passports which have led to the loss of so many innocent lives. Our thoughts will not be misused, would be a positive step from Israel are with the victims and their families. The attacks are a reminder of the importance of the international community working with both in its engagement with this new Government and Pakistan to tackle the threat of violent extremism”. in helping to re-establish the trust of the British passport Our consular staff at our high commission in Islamabad holders. provided support to the family of the British national Russia: Espionage who was killed in the attack. Senior officials from the Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) have met Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent with representatives of the Ahmadiyya community in estimate he has made of the number of Russian the UK. I will be meeting the leadership of the community Federation intelligence officers operating in the UK. at the FCO in the near future to discuss the concerns of [1124] the Ahmadiyya community in detail. Our British high commissioner in Islamabad has Nick Herbert: I have been asked to reply. raised the attacks and the discrimination suffered by the It is the long-standing policy of HM Government Ahmadiyya community with the Chief Minister of Punjab not to comment on security and intelligence matters. 359W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 360W

Russia: Human Rights also have on stand-by in London a rapid deployment team of specially trained staff who can be sent out to Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for South Africa quickly, to reinforce the response capability Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent of our team on the ground. discussions he or other Ministers in the Department Sudan: Olympic Games 2012 have had with their Russian counterparts; and whether they raised human rights issues during those discussions. [1728] Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether his Mr Lidington: Foreign and Commonwealth Office Department has been notified as to whether the Ministers have not yet held substantive discussions with President of Sudan plans to attend the London 2012 their Russian counterparts. However, the Government Olympics. [2110] remain deeply concerned about Russia’s poor human rights record and will continue to raise this with them. Mr Bellingham: Invitations for the London 2012 The Government will press for an end to the apparent Olympics have not yet issued. We have no information impunity for those that perpetrate human rights abuses, on proposed attendance from any country. stressing that those involved should be brought to justice in trials which meet international standards. The Thailand: Press Freedom Government will continue to work with Russia on addressing ongoing human rights issues, including through Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign our bilateral human rights dialogue. and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has received reports on the use of the lèse majesté laws by the South Africa: Football government of Thailand in respect of news web sites in that country; and if he will make a statement. [1948] Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many British Mr Jeremy Browne: We understand the particular nationals he expects to visit South Africa during the reverence the people of Thailand have for the monarchy. World Cup Finals; and what provisions his The Government attach importance to freedom of Department is making to assist them. [2109] expression and the respect of fundamental human rights. It should be possible to discuss political reform without Mr Bellingham: It is difficult to provide a precise fear of coming under the purview of laws that were figure for the number of fans that will travel to South designed for non political purposes. Human rights groups Africa for the World Cup. It is likely to be in the tens of continue to raise concerns about the use of the 2007 thousands. We anticipate this number will be bolstered Computer Crimes Act to interfere with the internet on by last-minute bookings if England reach the later grounds of national security, which has been deemed to stages of the tournament. include criticism of the monarchy. A significant number The safety and welfare of British nationals is our of websites were also blocked during recent political paramount concern. We launched the Foreign and unrest under the provisions of the State of Emergency. Commonwealth Office (FCO) ‘Be on the Ball’ travel Our ambassador in Bangkok has raised the issue of safety campaign in November 2009. This campaign’s freedom of expression a number of times with the Thai objective is to provide clear, concise travel advice and authorities. We welcome statements by the Thai Prime tips to travelling fans and to inform them what consular Minister that lèse majesté laws should not be used staff can and cannot do to help them. We have also inappropriately. encouraged fans to visit our webpage Unmanned Air Vehicles www.fco.gov.uk/worldcup This provides further information ranging from advice Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign on the rules of the road and crime avoidance to what to and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has do on match days. received on the use of drone planes in military Since October 2009 a dedicated football liaison officer operations by the governments of other countries. at the British high commission in Pretoria has been [2388] working closely with the South African authorities, the Football Association, supporters groups and the UK Alistair Burt: As is the case in the UK, the Governments police to ensure that arrangements are in place to help of other countries use unmanned aerial vehicles in a visiting fans. The consular network in South Africa has range of roles and scenarios. been reinforced with additional staff from the region to deal with an expected increase in consular cases, such as lost passports and victims of traffic accidents or crime. A mobile consular team will travel to each of the venues WORK AND PENSIONS that England will play in, to enable staff to respond quickly as issues arise. Children: Maintenance While we expect the majority of problems to be routine, we are also prepared to respond in the event of Michael Fallon: To ask the Secretary of State for a larger incident. Our high commission in Pretoria and Work and Pensions for what reasons the upper the consulate general in Cape Town took part in a earnings limit for Child Support Agency assessments World Cup specific exercise in February that tested has not been uprated since its introduction; and if he their preparedness to respond to a major incident. We will make a statement. [2545] 361W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 362W

Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement URL Website Commission is responsible for the child maintenance system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner www.jobbrokersearch.gov.uk New Deal Disabled People Job to write to the hon. Member with the information Broker Search requested and I have seen the response. www.workingforhealth.gov.uk Working for Health www.remploy.co.uk Remploy Letter from Stephen Geraghty: www.hse.gov.uk Health and Safety Executive In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the www.cmoptions.org Child Maintenance Options Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive www.childmaintenance.org Child Maintenance Enforcement reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child Commission Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance www.csa.gov.uk Child Support Agency and Enforcement Commission. www.officefordisability.gov.uk Office for Disability Issues You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions for www.esf.gov.uk European Social Fund what reasons the upper earnings limit for Child Support Agency www.iiac.org.uk Industrial Injuries Advisory Council assessments has not been uprated since its introduction; and if he will make a statement. [2545] www.ssac.org.uk Social Security Advisory Committee www.ind-case-exam.org.uk Independent Case Examiner The upper limit for the statutory child maintenance schemes is a net weekly income of £2,000 per week. It was set at a level sufficiently high to ensure that all children benefit from a reasonable Directgov is a cross-government website, the URL is level of maintenance and only those who are already likely to www.direct.gov.uk have more complicated financial arrangements are affected. In Like all Government Departments, DWP publishes content these cases, the courts are able to make a top-up of maintenance order. This is an important safeguard to ensure that children onto continue to share in the living standards of non-resident parents www.direct.gov.uk when the non-resident parent’s income exceeds the upper limit. although this URL is managed by Directgov. Whilst inflation has meant that a greater number of non-resident DWP are currently implementing the Sir David Varney parents earn more than the upper earnings limit, their number is still very small and it has therefore not been thought necessary to Transformational Government recommendations for amend legislation. Website Rationalisation. 20 websites have already closed including the Pension Service website which closed As a consequence of moving from net to gross weekly income in the future scheme we propose that the maximum amount of September 2009 and Jobcentre Plus which closed March weekly income taken into account in a maintenance calculation 2010. Content and online services for these websites will increase to £3,000. This is broadly the same as the current cap have moved to in net income terms and in keeping with the objective that there www.direct.gov.uk should not be major differences in liabilities when comparing www.businesslink.gov.uk current scheme and future scheme rules. I hope you find this answer helpful. and www.dwp.gov.uk Departmental Internet simplifying access to DWP information.

Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Departmental Mobile Phones and Pensions what the URL is of each website managed by (a) his Department and (b) each Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work non-departmental public body and agency for which and Pensions which Ministers in his Department have his Department is responsible. [2359] been issued with (a) a Blackberry, (b) an iPhone, (c) another make of mobile telephone and (d) a personal Chris Grayling: The information is as follows: digital assistant supplied by the Department. [1420] (a) The following URLs are for the websites currently being managed by DWP: Chris Grayling: The following Ministers have been allocated a departmental BlackBerry; URL Website Chris Grayling www.dwp.gov.uk DWP Corporate Maria Miller www.emetaskforce.gov.uk Ethnic Minority Employment Task Steve Webb force No iphones or PDAs have been issued to Ministers. (b) The following URLs are for the websites of the non-departmental public bodies and agencies for which Departmental Official Cars DWP are currently responsible: Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work URL Website and Pensions how many Government (a) cars and (b) www.pensionsadvisoryservice.org.uk The Pensions Advisory Service drivers are allocated to Ministers in his Department. www.pensions-ombudsman.org.uk The Pensions Ombudsman [305] www.pensionprotectionfund.org.uk The Pension Protection Fund www.ppfo.org.uk The Pension Protection Fund Chris Grayling: The DWP has introduced new Ombudsman arrangements with the Government Car Service to run www.thepensionsregulator.gov.uk The Pensions Regulator a pool of four cars for use by the Department’s five www.ilf.org.uk Independent Living Funds Ministers. Where necessary this is supplemented with www.padeliveryauthority.org.uk Personal Accounts Delivery Authority additional Green Car Services. This will be reviewed over the forthcoming months to ensure value for money. 363W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 364W

Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work The Government’s coalition agreement announced and Pensions what his policy is on the use by Ministers plans for a free national financial advice service, funded in his Department of cars allocated from (a) his by a social responsibility levy on the financial services Department’s pool and (b) the Government car pool industry. This will include a free annual financial which are manufactured in the UK; whether Ministers healthcheck. in his Department are entitled to request the use of a Under the requirements of the Financial Services Act car manufactured in the UK; and if he will make a 2010, the Financial Services Authority established a statement. [2400] new independent Consumer Financial Education Body in April 2010. This body has responsibility for raising Chris Grayling: The information requested is as follows: levels of financial capability across the UK. (a) The DWP has arranged with the Government Car Service (GCS) to run a pool of four cars and four Future Jobs Fund drivers for use by the Department’s five Ministers and the Permanent Secretary. This will be reviewed over the Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for forthcoming months to ensure value for money. Work and Pensions what proportion of young people who have been placed in training, employment or work (b) Ministers may make use of the GCS under the experience through the Future Jobs Fund in terms of the recently announced Ministerial Code. This Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (a) are states that disabled, (b) are women, (c) are from ethnic “the number of Ministers with allocated cars and drivers will minorities, (d) have mental health problems and (e) be kept to a minimum, taking into account security and other were brought up in care. [1969] relevant considerations. Other Ministers will be entitled to use cars from the Government Car Service pool as needed.” Chris Grayling: The information requested is not For reasons of efficient and economic fleet management, available. it is not practical for Ministers to specify a UK manufactured vehicle for a journey in a pool service car. Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Work The proportion of UK manufactured vehicles in the and Pensions how much funding has been allocated GCS fleet used by DWP is 25%, with the remainder from the Future Jobs Fund to organisations in being Japanese hybrid models. Chesterfield constituency. [2122]

Departmental Public Appointments Chris Grayling: The information requested is not available. Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Future Jobs Fund: North East and Pensions how many (a) political appointments and (b) other personal appointments he has made Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for since his appointment; and at what estimated annual Work and Pensions what his most recent assessment is cost to the public purse. [361] of the effect on levels of employment in (a) the North East and (b) Middlesbrough South and East Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Cleveland of ending the Future Jobs Fund. [1970] Work and Pensions how many special advisers (a) he and (b) each other Minister in his Department (i) has Chris Grayling: At up to £6,500 per placement, the appointed to date and (ii) plans to appoint. [314] Future Jobs Fund is five times more expensive than other aspects of the Young Persons Guarantee, making Chris Grayling: I refer to the answer given by my right it poorer value for money. As we emerge from a recession hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 3 June 2010, Official with a huge budget deficit, it is right that the Government Report, column 99W, and the subsequent publication of take decisive steps to secure long lasting benefits rather the list of special adviser appointments on 10 June than temporary changes to unemployment. Next year 2010. we will introduce our new Work Programme, which will Since my appointment the following expert advisers bring better targeted and more effective support to have been seconded to my Department: young people and the unemployed. Charlotte Pickles, from the Centre for Social Justice Reform, Future Jobs Fund: Wales for a period of six months; Stephen Brien (part-time) and Jon Tippell from Oliver Wyman, Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for Work for a period of three months. and Pensions how many people have been employed in Wales through the Future Jobs Fund. [1720] Financial Services: Education Chris Grayling: The latest Official Statistics, covering Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for the period October 2009 to January 2010, show that Work and Pensions what steps the Government is 690 people in Wales started jobs created through the taking to increase levels of financial capability of Future Jobs Fund. members of the public. [1904] Incapacity Benefit

Mr Hoban: I have been asked to reply. Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government are committed to ensuring people Work and Pensions what procedure is followed when have the advice they need to look after their finances more than one error is discovered in a targeted audit of and save for the future. a medical report carried out by medical services on 365W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 366W behalf of his Department for the purpose of The Disability Equality Duty (DED) requires public determining a claimant’s eligibility for incapacity authorities to have due regard to disability issues when benefit; and if he will make a statement. [2544] carrying out their functions and delivering their services. The DED applies across the full range of public sector Chris Grayling: A medical report that fails to meet activity and it means that public authorities should medical services standards is amended before it is returned consider the impact of their work on disabled people, to the decision maker. Subsequent action is determined and take action to promote equality. by the nature of the errors. Minor errors may be corrected by making changes to the original report. More serious Social Security Benefits: Fraud errors may require a further examination of the customer. Feedback is given to the healthcare professional by a Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and mentor. The timescale for the feedback is determined by Pensions what framework will be applied to assess the nature of the errors. Serious errors may require whether or not benefit claimants have complied with immediate feedback. Corrective action is determined by the rules on claiming (a) income support, (b) the mentor and medical manager in consultation with jobseeker’s allowance and (c) employment and the healthcare professional and may include supervised support allowance; and what measures will be put in sessions, retraining or further targeted audit. place to ensure sanctions for those in breach of those rules do not affect their children. [2163] Whilst engaging as many as possible in work related activity, and prioritising an active work regime, we are Chris Grayling: We strongly believe that the welfare determined to make sure those that need it get the right state should combine rights with responsibilities. All support. benefits have basic entitlement conditions (for example, recipients of jobseeker’s allowance have to be available Poverty: Children to take up full-time work immediately). Those receiving income support or employment and support allowance Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State who are able to prepare for work or make themselves for Work and Pensions what steps he plans to take to more work-ready are expected to do so as a condition of reduce levels of child poverty. [2210] receiving benefit. Where the customer fails to satisfy the conditions for Maria Miller: I refer the hon. Member to the reply I receiving benefit a Jobcentre Plus Decision Maker will gave on 14 June 2010, Official Report, column 587W, to consider whether a sanction is appropriate. The decision my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester (Stephen maker is impartial and considers evidence from both Mosley). the adviser and the customer set against regulations, case law and guidance. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Sanctions are only applied to the individual’s personal for Work and Pensions what steps he is taking to benefit entitlement—additions for a spouse or partner reduce the level of financial exclusion of the most and premiums for disabled children are not affected; vulnerable families. [2212] nor is entitlement to housing benefit and council tax benefit. Child tax credits are unaffected by any sanction. Steve Webb: DWP are developing the capacity of Jobseekers in vulnerable groups who are sanctioned third sector financial service providers, such as credit may be entitled to hardship payments, where their unions, so that people on low incomes, traditionally not jobseeker’s allowance is paid at a reduced rate. Vulnerable well served by mainstream financial institutions, have groups include households where there is a dependent access to savings products, affordable credit, basic banking child who may be affected by the imposition of a and help with budgeting. sanction. DWP Financial Inclusion Champions are also working with local authorities, social landlords, the third sector, and intermediary groups to co-ordinate local partnerships, developing financial inclusion at the heart of local ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE communities. Carbon Emissions: Housing Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what steps he is taking to Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for improve levels of access to public services for deaf Energy and Climate Change what percentage of total children. [2213] carbon emissions reduction target funding was allocated to Wales in each year since the scheme was Maria Miller: The Disability Discrimination Act 1995 launched. [1977] places a duty on providers of services in the public sector [as well as those in the private and voluntary Gregory Barker: The Carbon Emissions Reduction sectors] to make reasonable adjustments for disabled Target (CERT) is an obligation set at a GB-wide level to people, which includes deaf children and the duty to achieve savings in the levels of CO2 emitted by householders. make reasonable adjustments has been carried forward Energy suppliers are free to decide how best to deliver in the Equality Act. My Department is working with their carbon target by installing approved household the Government Equalities Office to ensure that service energy efficiency measures anywhere across Great Britain, providers are provided with appropriate advice and in the manner they consider most appropriate within guidance on how to fulfil their duties under the Equality the rules of the scheme. There are no regional targets or Act when it is implemented funding requirements. 367W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 368W

Energy suppliers do not disclose the levels of support Gregory Barker: The Government are committed to that they provide towards the cost of installed measures increasing the amount of renewable heat in the UK; this and regard this as commercially sensitive information. is a crucial part of ensuring we meet our renewables targets, cutting carbon and ensuring energy security. Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for We are currently looking at the renewable heat incentive Energy and Climate Change what steps are taken to (RHI) proposals. Clearly there are benefits to the scheme, ensure that funding for (a) carbon emissions reduction but we must also consider the impact of the costs, targets and (b) the Community Energy Saving particularly given the financial constraints we must Programme is allocated evenly to each constituent part work within and the potential impact that funding of the UK. [1978] options could have on vulnerable people. Gregory Barker: The Carbon Emissions Reduction We are aware that there is uncertainty in the renewable Target (CERT) and the Community Energy Saving heating industry and want to provide certainty and Programme (CESP) are GB-wide obligations on the six clarity as quickly as possible, but must make sure that largest domestic energy suppliers (and large electricity we make the right decision. generators in the case of CESP) to achieve savings in We will look to make an announcement on the future the levels of CO2 emitted by householders. Individual of the proposed scheme as soon as possible. companies’ targets are set by the regulator, Ofgem. Energy companies are free to decide how best to deliver their carbon target by installing approved household energy efficiency measures anywhere across Great Britain COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT in the manner they consider most appropriate within the rules of the schemes. There are no regional targets Affordable Housing: Construction or funding requirements. CESP does designate eligible areas based on the Mr Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for lowest income areas identified by the Indices of Multiple Communities and Local Government what steps he is Deprivation. In England this is based on the lowest 10% taking to create new community land trusts. [2401] income areas and in Scotland and Wales the lowest 15%. In total there are around 4,500 designated CESP areas across Great Britain. Andrew Stunell [holding answer 14 June 2010]: We are going to introduce community-owned local housing Nuclear Power Stations: Insurance trusts which will enable communities to create new homes for local people. My Department and the Homes and Communities Agency are already working with Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for several existing community land trusts and other community Energy and Climate Change how much has been spent inspired housing groups who are developing schemes on underwriting of UK civil nuclear insurance for local housing. liabilities in the last 10 years. [2342]

Charles Hendry: The purchase of insurance to cover Council Housing: Construction nuclear liabilities is a commercial matter for the nuclear operators. Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for Government have not provided any underwriting for Communities and Local Government if his UK civil nuclear insurance liabilities in the last 10years. Department will undertake research into the cost- Indeed, if Government were to provide such a facility effectiveness of building of homes (a) by local they would do so for a commercial charge. authorities directly and (b) under private finance initiative schemes. [1587] Nuclear Power: Finance Andrew Stunell: Until recently there have been very Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for few homes built by local authorities and no funding Energy and Climate Change how much the provided to them. Government has spent on nuclear projects through the Homes being built under the Local Authority New European Commission Joint Research Centre in Build programme are subject to a value for money the last 10 years. [2345] assessment by the Homes and Communities Agency before receiving support and Housing Private Finance Charles Hendry: The European Commission Joint Initiative (PFI) schemes also go through key value for Research Centre (JRC) is funded directly by the European money assessments. As part of the comprehensive spending Commission under the auspices of the Euratom treaty. review, my Department plans to assess the value for Therefore the UK has not directly funded any nuclear money of Housing PFI and other delivery routes. projects through the JRC.

Renewable Energy Departmental Accountancy

Michael Fallon: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Spencer: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what his plans are for the Communities and Local Government what ministerial future of the Renewable Heat Incentive Scheme; and if directions were issued to the Accounting Officer of his he will make a statement. [2546] Department in the last 12 months. [1574] 369W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 370W

Robert Neill: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I Home Information Packs gave to the hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Angie Bray) on 8 June 2010, Official Report, column Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for 237W. Communities and Local Government what estimate he Departmental Flags has made of the number of jobs likely to be lost as a result of the ending of the requirement to use home Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for information packs. [1063] Communities and Local Government what his policy is on flying the Union flag each day from each official Andrew Stunell [holding answer 7 June 2010]: It is building for which his Department is responsible. difficult to make such an estimate. Although HIP providers [1820] will be most affected, many may continue to offer other services such as conveyancing, local search provision Robert Neill: The Department for Culture, Media and the preparation of energy performance certificates. and Sport issues guidance for the flying of the Union Our impact assessment of this, however, estimates flag on UK Government buildings. The guidance that sellers of homes will save over £870 million over a encourages the Union flag to be flown 365 days a year, 10 year period. and as a minimum all Departments must fly the Union flag on the 19 special designated days e.g Queen’s Mr Spencer: To ask the Secretary of State for birthday, Remembrance Day, etc. and other special Communities and Local Government what timetable occasions as required e.g. State Opening of Parliament. he has set for the full abolition of home information More information on the guidance is available on the packs. [1575] DCMS website: http://www.culture.gov.uk/what_we_do/honours/7124.aspx Andrew Stunell: We took swift action to suspend the The Department for Communities and Local home information pack (HIP) from 21 May and intend Government flies the Union flag 365 days of the year to introduce legislation to abolish the HIP later in the from our HQ office Eland House. parliamentary Session. Departmental Official Residences Housing and Planning Delivery Grant Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government whether any Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for domestic properties in the gift of the Government have Communities and Local Government pursuant to the been allocated to the use of Ministers in his written ministerial statement of 10 June 2010, on local Department. [1791] government savings package, what the evidential basis is for the statement that the Housing and Planning Robert Neill: No Communities and Local Government Delivery Grant has been ineffective. [2566] Ministers have been allocated a property in the gift of Government for use as a domestic property. Robert Neill: Housing and Planning Delivery Grant Departmental Redundancy Pay was designed to incentivise an increase in housing completions and the delivery of local plans. HPDG was first paid in 2008-09. Since then housing completions Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for have fallen from 174,900 in 2007 to 142,400 in 2008 and Communities and Local Government what his most 118,000 in 2009. Furthermore, local planning authorities recent estimate is of the annual cost to his Department local development frameworks have still failed to appear of redundancy payments for (a) front line and (b) expeditiously with only 18% of local authorities who other staff employed by (i) his Department and (ii) its have adopted a core strategy in the six-year period after agencies. [630] the system was introduced. Robert Neill: The cost for redundancies in Communities and Local Government for the financial year 2009-10 Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for was circa £69,000. Communities and Local Government how much The Department’s agencies are the Fire Service College, Hartlepool Borough Council received from the QE11 Conference Centre Housing and Planning Delivery Grant in each year that it was available. [2567] and Planning Inspectorate. The estimated cost of redundancies in the Fire Service Robert Neill: Housing and Planning Delivery Grant College for the financial year 2009-10 was circa £480,000. commenced in 2008-09 and Hartlepool borough council The Planning Inspectorate and QE11 Conference Centre received the following awards: have not had any redundancies. Fire Services HPDG award (£) 2008-09 138,926 Iain Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009-10 107,000 Communities and Local Government what his policy is on the regionalisation of the fire service. [1803] Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Neill: The Government are opposed to the Communities and Local Government pursuant to the regionalisation of the fire and rescue service. written ministerial statement of 10 June 2010, on local 371W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 372W government savings package, what incentive schemes Local Government Executive he plans to bring forward to replace the Housing and Planning Delivery Grant. [2568] Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government with reference to Andrew Stunell: The Housing and Planning Delivery the proposals on page 12 of the Coalition Agreement Grant has proved to be ineffective and excessively complex. on allowing councils to return to the committee system, We will replace this with incentives for local authorities if he will make it his policy to remove the requirement to deliver sustainable development, including for new on councils to consult on adopting an indirectly-elected homes and businesses. leader model of government. [2426]

Housing: Construction Robert Neill: We are committed to allow councils to have the committee system rather than executive structures, Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for if they wish, and intend to seek the necessary powers, Communities and Local Government whether he plans including provision about how councils will be able to to revise Planning Policy Statement 3. [1687] adopt new governance models, in legislation to devolve greater powers to councils and neighbourhoods and Robert Neill: On 9 June 2010, Planning Policy give local communities control over housing and planning Statement 3: Housing was re-issued with the following decisions which was announced in the Queen’s Speech amendments: for this parliamentary Session. The definition of previously developed land in Annex B, now excludes private residential gardens Local Government Finance The national indicative minimum density of 30 dwellings per hectare was deleted from paragraph 47. Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for We have committed, in the Coalition Government Communities and Local Government whether the end document “The Coalition: our programme for to ring-fencing of central government funding for local government”, to publish and present to Parliament a authorities will apply to funding for housing. [1630] simple and consolidated national planning framework covering all forms of development and setting out national economic, environmental and social priorities. We will Robert Neill: I refer the hon. Member to the written set out how we intend to do this in due course. ministerial statement and supporting documents that were laid in the House on 10 June 2010, Official Report, Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for columns 15-17WS as these provide a detailed breakdown Communities and Local Government what his policy is of the central Government grants from which the ringfences on the minimum proportion of affordable housing have been removed in 2010-11. required in new housing developments. [1733] The housing market renewal grant which accounts for £236 million of capital funding is one of the grants Andrew Stunell: The Government does not set a that will have the ring-fence removed in 2010-11. minimum proportion of affordable housing required in new housing developments. Existing guidance in Planning Local Government Finance: West Midlands Policy Statement 3: Housing, paragraph 29 asks local planning authorities to set an overall plan-wide target for the amount of affordable housing to be provided Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for and remains unchanged. Communities and Local Government what individual grants to (a) Dudley Metropolitan Borough Council Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for and (b) each other local authority in the West Communities and Local Government what his policy is Midlands he plans to reduce as part of his on the minimum density of new housing developments. Department’s planned expenditure reductions; and if he will make a statement. [2403] [1734]

Andrew Stunell: Local authorities should develop Robert Neill: I refer the hon. Member to the written their own housing density policies having regard to ministerial statement which my right hon. Friend the Planning Policy Statement 3: Housing, paragraph 46. Secretary of State laid in the House on 10 June 2010, The indicative minimum density target (30 dwellings Official Report, columns 15-17WS. per hectare) in paragraph 47 of PPS3 was deleted on 9 June 2010. There is therefore no national minimum Local Government: Public Consultation density policy. Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Housing: Empty Property Communities and Local Government by what mechanism people in a local authority area will be able Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for to initiate a local referendum. [1627] Communities and Local Government what plans he has to bring empty homes back into use. [2660] Andrew Stunell: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Nottingham Andrew Stunell: We are currently exploring a wide East (Chris Leslie) on 8 June, Official Report, range of measures to bring empty homes back into use. column 132W. 373W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 374W

Marinas: Brighton LA name Upheld Dismissed Total

Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Solihull Metropolitan Borough —22 Council Communities and Local Government when he expects Stockport Metropolitan Borough 1—1 to announce his decision on the Explore Living Council planning appeal in regard to Brighton Marina; and if Trafford Borough Council 1 — 1 he will make a statement. [2262] West Lancashire District Council 1 — 1 Wycombe District Council 1 1 2 Robert Neill: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will issue his decision on or before 13 July 2010. 2006-07 Bath and North East Somerset 1—1 Planning Permission: Appeals Council Bracknell Forest BC — 1 1 Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Bradford City Council 1 — 1 Communities and Local Government how many Darlington Borough Council — 1 1 judicial reviews under section 288 of the Town and East Hampshire District Council — 1 1 Country Planning Act 1990 were brought by each local Horsham District Council 1 — 1 planning authority against the decision of the planning Leeds City Council — 1 1 inspectorate in each of the last five years; how many of London Borough Of Bromley — 1 1 them were (a) upheld and (b) dismissed in relation to London Borough Of Croydon — 1 1 each authority; and if he will make a statement. [2052] London Borough Of Lambeth 1 — 1 London Borough Of Richmond- 1—1 Robert Neill: The following table sets out the number Upon-Thames of challenges made by local authorities to planning London Borough Of Southwark — 1 1 appeal decisions made by the Planning Inspectorate in Maidstone Borough Council 1 — 1 the years 2004-05 to 2008-09. The figures for 2009-10 North Cornwall District Council 1 — 1 will be available after 17 June (in order to comply with North Dorset District Council 1 — 1 the Statistics Act 2007) and can be provided on request. North Wiltshire District Council — 1 1 Portsmouth City Council — 1 1 LA name Upheld Dismissed Total Redditch Borough Council 1 — 1 South Cambridgeshire District —11 2004-05 Council Dartford Borough Council 1 — 1 South Gloucestershire Council — 1 1 Epping Forest District Council — 1 1 Staffordshire Moorlands District 1—1 Council Gateshead Metropolitan Borough 1—1 Council Tewkesbury District Council 1 — 1 Maidstone Borough Council 1 — 1 Wychavon District Council — 1 1 Mole Valley District Council — 1 1 North Hertfordshire District 1—12007-08 Council Brentwood District Council — 1 1 Oxford City Council 1 — 1 Cheltenham District Council — 1 1 Poole Borough Council — 1 1 East Dorset District Council 1 — 1 Preston Borough Council 1 — 1 London Borough Of Islington — 1 1 Tandridge District Council 1 — 1 London Borough Of Lambeth — 1 1 Waverley Borough Council 1 — 1 Maidstone Borough Council 1 — 1 West Dorset District Council 1 — 1 South Cambridgeshire District 1—1 Wolverhampton Metropolitan 1—1Council Borough Council South Staffordshire District —11 Wycombe District Council 3 — 3 Council Surrey County Council — 1 1 2005-06 Waverley Borough Council 1 — 1 Ashford Borough Council — 1 1 Carrick District Council 1 — 1 2008-09 Cherwell District Council — 1 1 Calderdale Metropolitan Borough 1—1 City Of Westminster Council 1 — 1 Council Doncaster Borough Council — 1 1 Canterbury City Council — 1 1 East Hampshire District Council — 1 1 Chelmsford Borough Council 1 — 1 Hart District Council 1 — 1 Craven District Council 1 — 1 Lake District Special Planning 2—2Derbyshire Dales District Council — 1 1 Board Dudley Metropolitan Borough —11 Leeds City Council 1 — 1 Council London Borough Of Waltham —11Guildford Borough Council — 1 1 Forest Harrogate Borough Council 1 — 1 Royal Borough Of Kingston- 1—1 Leeds City Council 1 1 2 Upon-Thames London Borough Of Bexley — 1 1 Rugby Borough Council 1 — 1 Sefton Metropolitan Borough —11London Borough Of Hackney — 1 1 Council Mid-Devon District Council 1 — 1 375W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 376W

Andrew Stunell: As at 1st April 2009 there were LA name Upheld Dismissed Total 248 local authority owned dwellings in the Kirklees New Forest District Council — 1 1 local authority area that were unoccupied (Source: Royal Borough Of Kensington and —11Communities and Local Government’s Housing Strategy Chelsea Statistical Appendix). As at 31 March 2009 there were Royal Borough Of Kingston- —1153 registered social landlord (RSL) owned self-contained Upon-Thames general needs dwellings that were unoccupied (Source: Vale Of White Horse District —11 Council Tenant Services Authority’s Regulatory Statistical Return). West Dorset District Council — 1 1 West Lindsey District Council 1 — 1 Social Rented Housing: Wigan

The following table sets out details of all challenges Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for made to Inspector planning appeal decisions in the Communities and Local Government what social relevant years. housing construction projects are being funded by his Department in the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan. Upheld Dismissed To be decided Total [1629]

2004-05 28 40 0 68 Andrew Stunell: The Homes and Communities Agency 2005-06 30 55 0 85 is supporting the following schemes for constructing 2006-07 36 62 1 99 new social housing: 2007-08 25 56 4 85 Bickershaw Colliery 2008-09 27 65 5 97 Note: Mother and Baby Move-on Unit, Lancaster Road, Hindley “Dismissed” indicates challenge either successfully defended by the Secretary of Durham Street, Phases 1 and 2, Wigan State or where the challenge was withdraw; “Upheld” indicates challenge unsuccessfully defended by the Secretary of State or where the decision was Byrom Fields, Wigan quashed with the consent of the parties. Plot 24, 7 Aveley Gardens, Highfield Windermere Gardens, Gordon Street, Leigh Regional Development Agencies Gadsbury Fold, Plots 112 and 113, Atherton Worthington Park, Plots 49, 54 and 194, Standish Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Kay Close, Scholes Communities and Local Government what representations his Department has received for the Etherton Street, Wigan retention of regional development agencies since the Windsor Avenue, Astley general election. [2428] The Orchards, Wigan Greenfields, Billinge. Robert Neill: The Department has received no formal representations since the May 2010 general election Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for calling for the retention of the regional development Communities and Local Government how much agencies. finding he plans to provide for capital expenditure on the decent homes programme of Wigan and Leigh Social Rented Housing: Kirklees Housing. [1632] Andrew Stunell: Wigan and Leigh Housing is an Simon Reevell: To ask the Secretary of State for Arms Length Management organisation (ALMO) which Communities and Local Government (1) how many manages the council housing stock of Wigan council. people in Kirklees local authority area are on the social The Department does not provide capital funding to housing waiting list; and if he will make a statement; ALMOs such as Wigan and Leigh Housing but funds [2321] Wigan council directly through the HRA subsidy system. (2) how many people in Kirklees local authority area Since the Decent Homes programme began in 2001, were on the social housing waiting list in each of the Wigan council has received £137 million in ALMO last five years; and if he will make a statement. [2322] supported capital expenditure to undertake a Decent Homes investment programme. There are no plans to Andrew Stunell: Information is available on numbers fund additional capital expenditure to Wigan council of households rather than people. The number of for Decent Homes works beyond the major repairs households registered on social housing waiting lists in allowance funding provided in the subsidy system. each local authority, each region, and in England, as at 1 April each year from 1997 to 2009, is published on the Tenant Services Authority Communities and Local Government website in table 600. The link for this table is given as follows: Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/housing/xls/ Communities and Local Government what recent table600.xls representations he has received on his plans for the Tenant Services Authority. [1998] Simon Reevell: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what his most Grant Shapps: I have received representations on a recent estimate is of the number of social houses in the range of subjects since my appointment as Minister for Kirklees local authority area which are unoccupied; Housing and Local Government, including on the and if he will make a statement. [2323] regulation of social housing. The role of all CLG 377W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 378W quangos is being examined closely, but no final decisions Norman Baker: The Department for Culture, Media have been made about the future of the Tenant Services and Sport issues guidance for the flying of the Union Authority. flag on UK Government buildings. The guidance encourages the Union flag to be flown 365 days a year, Travellers: Caravan Sites and as a minimum all departments must fly the Union flag on the 19 special designated days eg Queen’s birthday, Mr Spencer: To ask the Secretary of State for Remembrance Day, etc. and other special occasions as Communities and Local Government what estimate he required eg. State Opening of Parliament. has made of the change in the number of unauthorised More information on the guidance is available on the traveller sites since 1997. [1573] DCMS website: http://www.culture.gov.uk/what_we_do/honours/7124.aspx Andrew Stunell: The number of caravans on unauthorised developments has increased from 887 in 1997 to 2,395 At the main Department for Transport London in 2010—an increase of 170% over 13 years. headquarters building the Union flag is flown 365 days of the year. The Union flag is flown on designated days Wigan at other departmental buildings able to fly flags. Departmental Official Residences Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government for what public spending projects in (a) Wigan constituency and (b) Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan his Department Transport whether any domestic properties in the gift secured Treasury approval between 1 January 2010 and of the Government have been allocated to the use of the date of his appointment as Secretary of State. Ministers in his Department. [1793] [1626] Norman Baker: There are no domestic properties in Robert Neill: The Government are reassessing spending the gift of the Government allocated for the use of approvals granted between 1 January 2010 and the Ministers in the Department for Transport. general election to ensure that they offer good value Northern Rail: Rolling Stock for money and are consistent with the Government’s priorities. Further announcements will be made in due course. Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans he has for the future of the High Level Output Statement agreement on the delivery of carriages for (a) Northern Rail and (b) TransPennine TRANSPORT Express. [1255]

Bus Services: Finance Mrs Villiers: We are assessing our policy for managing crowding on the rail network in the light of likely Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for spending constraints over the next few years. The National Transport what assessment his Department has made Audit Office report “Increasing Passenger Rail Capacity” of the effects of bus services operators grant levels on published on 4 June highlighted a number of problems bus (a) usage, (b) fares and (c) service. [1588] with delivery of the High Level Output Statement capacity programme. In the light of this report and in anticipation Norman Baker: Our assessment of the impact of bus of the current Spending Review, we have announced service operators grant (BSOG) is that on average usage that proposals by the previous administration for the is 6.7% higher, fares are 6.5% lower and services are purchase of additional carriages will be reappraised 7.1% higher outside London than if BSOG funding and assessed for affordability. were completely withdrawn. Public Transport: Carbon Emissions Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether he plans to review the operation of Mr Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for bus service operators grant; and if he will make a Transport what guidance he plans to issue to local statement. [1623] authorities on the appraisal process for low carbon local transport schemes; and if he will make a Norman Baker: As part of the forthcoming spending statement. [1367] review, and in common with all other areas of departmental expenditure, the Government will examine carefully the Norman Baker: In the Coalition Agreement we amount of subsidy paid to the bus industry, and the committed to reform the way decisions are made on basis on which it is paid, to ensure that it offers the best which transport projects to prioritise, so that the benefits value for taxpayers’ money, and meets wider Government of low carbon proposals (including light rail schemes) objectives. are fully recognised. We will announce details of how these reforms are to be implemented in due course. Departmental Flags Railways: North West Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what his policy is on flying the Union flag Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for each day from each official building for which his Transport what plans he has for the electrification of Department is responsible. [1808] the rail network in the North West. [1748] 379W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 380W

Mrs Villiers: We are in the early stages of the new The Government are re-assessing spending Government and Ministers are considering the full approvals granted between 1 January 2010 and the range of transport policy. The Government supports general election to ensure that they offer good value rail electrification as it helps to reduce carbon emissions for money and are consistent with the Government’s and cut running costs. priorities. Further announcements will be made in due course. Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assessment he has made of the likely Wigan North Western Station effect of the introduction of high speed rail on rail services serving Wigan North Western station. [1751] Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans he has for the renovation of Mr Philip Hammond: The detail of any changes to Wigan North Western rail station; and if he will make service patterns on the existing network that may result a statement. [1750] from a new high speed rail network will be determined in due course, in consultation with passengers and the Mrs Villiers: The Government recognises the importance rail industry. By generating significant additional capacity of investing in station improvements, and is committed new high speed lines would free up space on the existing to facilitating this investment through reforms to the lines, which would ultimately benefit passengers. way the railways are run. Network Rail is responsible for delivering the majority Tolls of investment in rail infrastructure across the UK rail network, and does so in accordance with the high level Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for output specification (HLOS) developed by the Department Transport what his policy is on the levying of charges for Transport, which formed the basis on which Network on foreign-registered (a) cars and (b) heavy goods Rail’s income was set by the Office of Rail Regulation vehicles using UK roads; and if he will make a (ORR) for the current regulatory control period (CP4) statement. [1496] in 2008. The Government’s priority is reducing the deficit. As Mike Penning: The Secretary of State has ruled out a company funded largely by Government, Network national road pricing for cars on existing roads. As Rail needs to contribute to this. As part of the stated in the Coalition programme for Government, we £683 million savings in departmental spending in 2010-11, are working towards the introduction of a new system Network Rail is reducing by £50 million the amount of HGV road user charging to ensure that foreign heavy that had been provisionally allocated to improving the goods vehicles contribute to the upkeep of UK roads ten stations identified for improvement in the Station that they use and to ensure a fairer arrangement for UK Champions’ “Better Rail Stations” report. However, hauliers. Wigan North Western is not precluded from benefitting from other funding such as the £150 million National Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for Stations Improvement programme. Transport what assessment he has made of the The hon. Member should contact Network Rail’s measures required to be introduced during the present chief executive at the following address for specific Parliament to prepare for any introduction of road detail on Network Rail’s plans for Wigan North Western pricing after May 2015. [1497] station: Mike Penning: The Secretary of State has ruled out Iain Coucher for the duration of the Parliament national road pricing Chief Executive for cars on existing roads and any reparation for such a Network Rail scheme beyond that time horizon. King’s Place For this reason no such assessment has been made. 90 York Way London N1 9AG. Wigan

Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for HOME DEPARTMENT Transport for which public expenditure projects in (a) Wigan constituency and (b) the Metropolitan borough Community Policing: Finance of Wigan his Department secured Treasury approval between 1 January 2010 and the date of his appointment as Secretary of State. [1749] Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much funding for each area Norman Baker: The following transport projects affecting under pathfinder neighbourhood agreements (a) has Wigan have gained approval since 1 January 2010: been allocated in 2010-11 to date and (b) is planned to [2391] Kickstart funding for enhanced bus services on circular routes be allocated in the remainder of 2010-11. 664-674 in Wigan. This funding has now been withdrawn as part of the 2010-11 grant reductions to local authorities. Nick Herbert: No funding has been provided to £298,000 allocated to Wigan metropolitan borough council for neighbourhood agreement pathfinder areas in 2010-11 emergency highways repair funding to deal with the impacts of to date. No decisions have yet been made on the allocation the adverse weather during the winter. This funding will be of funding to pathfinder areas in the remainder of paid in full in 2010-11. 2010-11. 381W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 382W

Departmental Internet Websites

Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Independent Police Complaints www.ipcc.gov.uk Commission (IPCC) Home Department what the URL is of each website Investigatory Powers Tribunal www.ipt-uk.com managed by (a) her Department and (b) each Office of Surveillance www.surveillancecommissioners.gov.uk non-departmental public body and agency for which Commissioners her Department is responsible. [2369] Office of the Immigration Services www.oisc.gov.uk Commissioner (OISC) Nick Herbert: The information is as follows: SOCA www.soca.gov.uk National Police Improvement www.npia.police.uk (a) The Home Office manages the following websites: Agency Alcohol Education and Research www.aerc.org.uk Websites Council (AERC) Centre for the protection of the www.cpni.gov.uk Home Office www.homeoffice.gov.uk National Infrastructure Neighbourhood policing www.neighbourhoodpolicing.co.uk Firearms National Counter Terrorism Security www.secureyourfertiliser.gov.uk Office (NaCTSO) Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Police Could You—recruitment www.policecouldyou.co.uk website Home Department what her most recent estimate is of Zahid Mubarek inquiry www.zahidmubarekinquiry.org.uk/ the incidence of gun-related crime in (a) rural and (b) Warning Service www.warp.gov.uk urban areas. [2013] Life in the UK Test www.lifeintheuktest.gov.uk James Brokenshire: Firearms are taken to be involved Think U Know—(child safety online www.thinkuknow.co.uk in a crime if they are fired, used as a blunt instrument or campaign) used as a threat. Data only at police force area level on National anti fraud network www.nafn.gov.uk offences involving firearms are submitted to the Home UK visas www.ukvisas.gov.uk Office by each police force in England and Wales. It is (b) Non-departmental public body and agency websites not possible to determine the precise location of offences for which the Home Office is responsible are as follows: from this centrally collected information, including whether the specific location is urban or rural. Websites Available information, relating to non-air weapon offences, was included in table 2.12 of the most recent Child Exploitation and Online www.ceop.gov.uk chapter on offences involving firearms, published within Protection Centre Home Office Statistical Bulletin 01/10 in January 2010. Identity and Passport Service www.ips.gov.uk 60% of all non-air weapon firearm offences in England Independent Safeguarding Authority www.isa-gov.org.uk and Wales in 2008-09 occurred in just three police force Centre for the Protection of www.cpnatinf.gov.uk National Infrastructure areas—Metropolitan, Greater Manchester and West Forensic Science Service www.forensic.gov.uk Midlands—while just under a quarter of the population of England and Wales reside in these areas.

Firearm offences (excluding air weapons) by police force area: English regions and Wales, 2004-05 to 2008-09 Recorded crime Total number of offences Offences per 100,000 Police force area 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 population, 2008-09

Cleveland 37 41 19 15 34 6.1 Durham 21 18 14 45 22 3.6 Northumbria 182 137 111 78 51 3.6 North East Region 240 196 144 138 107 4.2

Cheshire 61 71 41 59 61 6.1 Cumbria 26 18 21 18 28 5.6 Greater Manchester 1,268 1,200 993 1,160 827 32.1 Lancashire 259 372 364 349 207 14.3 Merseyside 491 485 410 398 353 26.2 North West Region 2,105 2,146 1,829 1,984 1,476 21.5

Humberside 174 108 117 58 62 6.8 North Yorkshire 13 15 14 17 11 1.4 South Yorkshire 185 301 211 202 144 11.0 West Yorkshire 318 355 319 332 287 13.0 Yorkshire and the Humber Region 690 779 661 609 504 9.7

Derbyshire 149 109 83 70 75 7.5 Leicestershire 123 89 109 134 127 13.0 Lincolnshire 90 72 45 41 16 2.3 383W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 384W

Firearm offences (excluding air weapons) by police force area: English regions and Wales, 2004-05 to 2008-09 Recorded crime Total number of offences Offences per 100,000 Police force area 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 population, 2008-09

Northamptonshire 113 128 159 164 112 16.4 Nottinghamshire 303 277 196 240 204 19.1 East Midlands Region 778 675 592 649 534 12.1

Staffordshire 144 128 94 123 44 4.1 Warwickshire 73 80 90 107 56 10.6 West Mercia 151 115 58 124 79 6.6 West Midlands 959 946 979 974 987 37.7 West Midlands Region 1,327 1,269 1,221 1,328 1,166 21.6

Bedfordshire 94 103 86 83 64 10.6 Cambridgeshire 50 34 24 30 34 4.4 Essex 193 280 255 260 176 10.3 Hertfordshire 139 114 89 112 68 6.3 Norfolk 23 29 34 43 29 3.4 Suffolk 59 58 42 38 25 3.5 East of England Region 558 618 530 566 396 6.9

London, City of1 31433 n/a Metropolitan 3,694 3,883 3,327 3,396 3,087 40.6 London Region 3,697 3,884 3,331 3,399 3,090 40.6

Hampshire 148 85 122 100 80 4.3 Kent 100 142 92 82 93 5.6 Surrey 63876070666.0 Sussex 67858469654.2 Thames Valley 437 401 332 322 214 9.7 South East Region 815 800 690 643 518 6.2

Avon and Somerset 196 167 138 116 95 6.0 Devon and Cornwall 189 174 132 111 70 4.2 Dorset 49272821162.3 Gloucestershire 87 77 65 43 52 8.9 Wiltshire 49 43 69 49 45 6.9 South West Region 570 488 432 340 278 5.3

Dyfed-Powys 40 21 17 25 7 1.4 Gwent 85 53 33 47 36 6.4 NorthWales 60889853426.2 South Wales 104 71 67 84 54 4.4 Wales 289 233 215 209 139 4.6

England and Wales 11,069 11,088 9,645 9,865 8,208 15.1 n/a = Not available. 1 Not available. Data for London Region includes the City of London.

Forensic Science Service Forensic Science Service—staffing figures Average number of full-time equivalent staff employed Charlie Elphicke: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many staff were employed 2007-08 2,024 by the Forensic Science Service in each financial year 2008-09 1,856 since 2005-06. [2283] 2009-10 1,797 Note: Based on figures reported in the annual report and accounts, annualised for the James Brokenshire: The information requested is shown first two years due to differing accounting periods. in the following table: Forensic Science Service—staffing figures Average number of full-time Charlie Elphicke: To ask the Secretary of State for equivalent staff employed the Home Department how many (a) voluntary and 2005-06 2,484 (b) involuntary redundancies there were from the 2006-07 2,357 Forensic Science Service in 2009-10. [2284] 385W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 386W

James Brokenshire: There were no voluntary Passports: Lost Property redundancies and 34 compulsory redundancies. Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for Charlie Elphicke: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the estimated cost of the Home Department how many staffed locations of Hampshire Constabulary running the airfield at HMS the Forensic Science Service there were in each Daedalus in Lee-on-the-Solent is for 2010-11, financial year since 2005-06. [2285] identifying separately the cost of employment of the James Brokenshire: The information requested is shown Air Support Unit officers and staff and associated in the following table: expenses. [2204] Forensic Science Service Ltd—number of staffed locations Nick Herbert [holding answer 14 June 2010]: The Number of staffed locations information requested is not held centrally. The costs of 2005-06 12 running the airfield at HMS Daedalus in Lee-on-the-Solent 2006-07 14 and the cost of employing Air Support Unit officers 2007-08 13 and staff are matters for the chief constable of Hampshire. 2008-09 13 Police: Ports 2009-10 13 Gary McKinnon Charlie Elphicke: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the budget for the UK Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for the Port Police in (a) the UK and (b) the Port of Dover (i) Home Department what her policy is on the request was in each year from 2007-08 to 2009-10 and (ii) is from the US Administration for the extradition of estimated to be in 2010-11. [2286] Gary McKinnon. [1443] Nick Herbert: The information is as follows: Nick Herbert: The UK’s policy and practice is to give maximum assistance to all of its extradition partners in (a) Nine UK sea ports maintain their own independent accordance with domestic law and international obligations. port police force entirely funded by the individual port. It expects no less in return. In Mr McKinnon’s case, However, responsibility for policing the UK’s sea and proceedings under the Extradition Act 2003 are now at air ports lies primarily with the geographic police force an end, but the Government have agreed to look afresh in whose territory a port lies. There are around 1,400 at whether new evidence demonstrates that extradition special branch officers working at the UK’s major air would breach Mr McKinnon’s human rights. To that and sea ports. There are also around 1,600 uniformed end, we are considering further representations which police patrolling UK ports, who are responsible for Mr McKinnon’s solicitors submitted to us on 8 June. protective security and general policing. These officers can be supported on general policing by further officers More generally, the Government have undertaken to from the local force. All these officers are drawn from review the 2003 Act and the UK-USA Extradition the police force within whose territory the port sits: treaty. there is not a specific ports policing budget. Immobilisation of Vehicles (b) The port of Dover police is independent police Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for the force and its budget is a matter for the Dover Harbour Home Department when she plans to introduce a code Board. of practice for wheelclampers. [2376] Charlie Elphicke: To ask the Secretary of State for Lynne Featherstone: The Government included in the Home Department what plans she has for the their Coalition Agreement, published on 12 May, a future of the Port Police. [2287] commitment to tackle rogue private sector wheel clampers. An announcement on how we will do this will be made Nick Herbert: None—this is a matter for the nine in due course. ports involved. Nevertheless, on the important matter Members: Security of border policing in general the coalition agreement sets out a commitment to create a dedicated border Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for the police force, as part of a refocused Serious Organised Home Department whether she has had discussions Crime Agency, to enhance national security, improve with the Association of Chief Police Officers on advice immigration controls and crack down on the trafficking to hon. Members on security measures at constituency of people, weapons and drugs. It will also tackle the offices; and if she will make a statement. [340] smuggling and illegal trade on wildlife. Nick Herbert: My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary Police: Rural Areas has had discussions with representatives of ACPO and the police service on a range of issues. In the course of Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for the these, my right hon. Friend has been briefed on the Home Department what plans she has to improve action which the police are taking in the light of the policing in rural areas. [2407] incident involving the hon. Member for East Ham at his Newham constituency office on 14 May 2010. The Nick Herbert: The Government are committed to briefing my right hon. Friend received included details ensuring that all communities, including those in rural on the liaison that has taken place between the police areas, receive a high quality policing service that meets and the parliamentary authorities to ensure that hon. local priorities. Effective neighbourhood policing by Members are given appropriate advice and support on police officers and police community support officers security measures at constituency offices. (PCSOs) provides an important policing presence in 387W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 388W rural, as well as urban areas. The programme set out by Persons with Disabilities on disabled people’s rights to the Coalition explains our approach to improving policing, liberty of movement is compatible with the object and including: purpose of the Convention; and when her Department the introduction of directly elected individuals, giving the plans to conduct a review of the reservation. [1601] public a greater voice to ensure their priorities are reflected; regular beat meetings where residents can hold the police to Damian Green: This Administration has made no account; separate assessment on this specific issue. the publication of crime maps showing the public what is The Home Office is currently reviewing the continuing happening in their streets, villages and towns; and need for the reservation, and will shortly invite interested cutting through the bureaucracy that hinders the police, and parties to contribute to this. introducing better technology, so that the police can spend more time out in their communities. Wigan We will also work to enable our citizens to play a more active part in keeping their own neighbourhoods Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for the safe, for example through the Neighbourhood and Farm Home Department for what public expenditure Watch schemes that are in place in many rural areas. projects within (a) Wigan constituency and (b) the Rape Metropolitan borough of Wigan her Department had secured Treasury approval between 1 January 2010 and Sandra Osborne: To ask the Secretary of State for the the date of her appointment as Secretary of State. Home Department what steps her Department plans to [1692] take to increase conviction rates in cases of rape. [2218] Nick Herbert: The Government are re-assessing spending James Brokenshire: We need to increase the number approvals granted between 1 January 2010 and the of successful rape prosecutions and send more rapists general election to ensure that they offer good value for to jail. The current conviction rate in cases of rape money and are consistent with the Government’s priorities. proceeded against in court stands at 38%. Further announcements will be made in due course. As we have made clear, the victim in rape cases remains our priority and we welcome many of the improvements introduced by the police and the Crown BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Prosecution Service in recent years, intended to improve Apprentices both victim care and the number of cases reaching court. These include specially trained officers and Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for prosecutors, dedicated rape units within police force Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many people in areas and investment in Sexual Assault Referral Centres (a) Wigan constituency, (b) the North West region for the improved collection of forensic evidence and and (c) England are undertaking an apprenticeship; provision of immediate crisis and medial care to victims. [1645] It is important, however, that victims have access to (2) how many people in (a) Wigan constituency, (b) longer term support and we have therefore committed the North West region and (c) England are to providing sustainable support for rape crisis centres. undertaking an advanced apprenticeship; [1646] Over the coming months, we shall work with partners (3) how many people in (a) Wigan constituency, (b) to consider what more needs to be done to ensure that the North West region and (c) England are perpetrators of rape are brought to justice. undertaking a higher apprenticeship. [1647] UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities Mr Hayes: Table 1 shows the number of Apprenticeship (Level 2), Advanced Apprenticeship (Level 3) and Higher Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Level Apprenticeship (Level 4) programme starts in the Home Department what assessment has been made Wigan parliamentary constituency, the north-west of whether the reservation made by the previous Government office region and England for 2008/09, the Government to the UN Convention on the Right of latest year for which complete data are available.

Table 1: Apprenticeship programme starts by level and geography, 2008-09.

Advanced Apprenticeships Higher level Apprenticeships (Level 2) (Level 3) Apprenticeships (Level 4) Total

Wigan parliamentary constituency 300 160 — 460

North-west 23,600 12,900 — 36,500

England 158,500 81,300 200 239,900

Notes: 1. Figures for Wigan parliamentary constituency are rounded to the nearest 10. All other figures are rounded to the nearest hundred. 2. Figures are based upon home postcode of the learner. 3. ‘—’ Indicates a base value of less than five for parliamentary constituency and less than 50 for Government office region. 4. The England figure contains a small amount of counts where the postcode of the learner is outside England and also learners where the postcode is not known. Source: Individualised Learner Record 389W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 390W

Information on the number of Apprenticeship starts Buying Solutions travel frameworks offer substantial by parliamentary constituency, local authority, Government savings to Government Departments on travel spend by office region and for England is published in a quarterly offering specially negotiated Government rates not available statistical first release (SFR). The latest SFR was published outside of the frameworks. on 24 March, and revised on 22 April: http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/sfrmar10 Economic Situation

Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has representations he has received on the level of demand made of the effect of the recent recession on (a) the for apprenticeships in (a) engineering and (b) West Midlands and (b) other regions of England; and manufacturing. [2189] what steps he plans to take in the West Midlands to alleviate these effects in areas within his Department’s Mr Hayes [holding answer 14 June 2010]: Ministers responsibilities. [2435] and officials have received a number of representations about apprenticeships including those in engineering Mr Prisk: Early data suggests that the recession may and manufacturing. The Government are committed to have had a significant impact on those areas that were increasing the number of apprenticeships, in particular already lagging, with the regions and sub-regions with advanced apprenticeships, to meet the needs of employers the highest initial unemployment experiencing the highest in an advanced modern economy. We know also that increases. For example latest data for 2008 indicates the demand from young people and adults for good that GVA growth between 2007 and 2008 was 3.0% in quality employer-owned apprenticeships is high. The the West Midlands, below the English average of 3.5% and Government’s decision to redeploy £150 million of Train the lowest of the English regions; and in the period to Gain funds for 2010-11, creating an additional 50,000 from 2007 to 2009, the West Midlands saw the largest adult places, demonstrates our commitment to high-quality percentage point increase in the unemployment rate of skills. Apprenticeships are founded on partnerships so all the English regions, rising by 4.6 ppts compared to it is important that employers, including those in the English average of 2.6 ppts. manufacturing and engineering, take up these new The Government will shortly be announcing details opportunities and offer apprenticeship places to secure of its proposals for local enterprise partnerships, which a new generation of highly skilled employees and we are joint local authority-business bodies to promote will be encouraging them to do so. local economic development. These may take the form Building Colleges for the Future Programme of existing RDAs in areas where they are popular. Education Maintenance Allowance Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what criteria will be applied to decide on provision of additional capital Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for funding for further education colleges. [2666] Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has for the future provision of bonuses to students who meet Mr Hayes: The Chancellor of the Exchequer on the targets related to attendance and achievement. [1439] 24 May announced that £50 million of Train to Gain funding would be reallocated to support a range of Mr Gibb: I have been asked to reply. capital infrastructure projects prioritising those colleges It is for schools to decide on whether to use rewards who have not previously benefitted significantly from and incentives with their pupils. previous further education capital investment. The funding is to be spent in 2010-11 and will result Higher Education: Admissions in genuine benefits to colleges and learners. The Skills Funding Agency has already begun work on a robust Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for process to ensure value for money and, most importantly, Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions the best outcomes for learners. As part of this process he has had on post-qualification admissions to higher the Agency has consulted the sector through the Association education. [1667] of Colleges’ Capital Reference Group to ensure that the views of the sector inform this process. Mr Willetts: I have had no recent discussions on The Skills Funding Agency will be inviting colleges post-qualification admissions to higher education. to apply shortly with a view to successful projects Higher Education: Student Numbers starting on site as soon as is practicable. Departmental Travel Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many people from Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Wigan constituency entered higher education in each Business, Innovation and Skills what the (a) name and year since 1996. [1641] (b) version is of each computer software package used by his Department to calculate travel costs. [1943] Mr Willetts: The number of entrants from Wigan constituency to UK higher education institutions are Mr Davey: The Department does not own any computer shown in the table. Figures are provided for the academic software packages to calculate travel costs. The Department years 1996/97 to 2008/09. Information for the 2009/10 uses the Buying Solutions travel frameworks to book academic year will be available from the Higher Education travel for air, rail car hire and accommodation. Statistics Agency in January 2011. 391W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 392W

Entrants1 from Wigan constituency2—UK higher education Mr Prisk: No public affairs firms have been hired by institutions3, academic years 1996/97 to 2008/09 any regional development agency or the regional Academic year Entrants development agency national secretariat in the last 1996/97 595 12 months. 1997/98 595 Train to Gain Programme: West Midlands 1998/99 640 1999/2000 715 Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for 2000/01 665 Business, Innovation and Skills whether he plans to 2001/02 725 alter previously planned expenditure on the Train to 2002/03 775 Gain programme in the West Midlands in (a) 2010-11 2003/04 830 and (b) 2011-12. [1446] 2004/05 795 2005/06 905 Mr Hayes: We have announced our intention to 2006/07 805 immediately reallocate £200 million of Train to Gain 2007/08 665 funding. This will provide 50,000 new adult apprenticeship 2008/09 905 places and an extra £50 million in further education 1 Covers all-aged undergraduate and postgraduate entrants to full-time infrastructure projects. and part-time courses. The Skills Funding Agency is now looking to implement 2 The table does not include entrants where the constituency of the student cannot be established due to missing or invalid postcode this change. However, it is not possible at this time to information. provide information on the impact it may have on 3 Excludes the Open University due to inconsistencies in their coding individual institutions in the West Midlands, and therefore of entrants across the time series. spend in a particular region. Note: Figures are on a HESA snapshot basis as at 1 December and are Union Learning Fund rounded to the nearest five. Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many (a) disabled Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for people, (b) people from ethnic minorities, (c) females Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has to and (d) young people have received assistance from the review the number of undergraduate student places; Union Learning Fund. [1967] and if he will make a statement. [1704] Mr Hayes: The Union Learning Fund (ULF) is overseen Mr Willetts: We have secured funding for an additional by unionlearn, the TUC’s learning and skills arm, under 10,000 undergraduate and foundation degree places in a grant arrangement with the Department. Information 2010-11. Beyond that we will assess the requirement for on the assistance provided to these groups of learners is student places in the context of our response to the currently not held in respect of all ULF activity. However, Independent Review of Higher Education Funding and it is available where ULF projects are directly involved Student Finance chaired by Lord Browne and the next in providing learning opportunities through U-net, spending review. In doing so we will want to ensure that unionlearn’s network of online learning centres. The the quality of higher education courses is not diminished. latest full year information, provided by the TUC, for 2006/07 to 2008/09 shows that out of a total of 17,240 course participants, 8,311 (48.2%) were female, 1,802 Regional Development Agencies (10.5%) were from an ethnic minority, 778 (4.5%) were disabled and 1,193 (6.9%) were young workers (under 25). Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for In April 2010 a new contractual requirement was introduced Business, Innovation and Skills what (a) in-house and for all ULF projects to record this level of information (b) external lobbying activity (i) each regional to cover all areas of activity. development agency and (ii) the National Secretariat U-net was ranked by Ofsted (in February 2009) to be for Regional Development Agencies has undertaken among the best learning providers in the country with a: for the retention of regional development agencies “strong ethos to widen participation, promote social inclusion since the general election. [2427] and equality of opportunity”. Success rates for Black learners rose from 54% in 2007/08 Mr Prisk: Cabinet Office guidance on NDPBs is that to 81.8% in 2008/09 and for Asian learners from 70.2% to it will always be an improper use of public funds for 82.1%—well above the national average. NDPBs to employ PR or other consultants to lobby Parliament or Government Departments in an attempt Vocational Training: Teachers to influence government policy or obtain higher funding. I will ensure that all RDA chief executives are reminded Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for of this responsibility. Business, Innovation and Skills whether his Department plans to respond to the recommendations Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for of the Skills Commission on teacher training in Business, Innovation and Skills which public affairs vocational education. [1576] firms have been hired by (a) each regional development agency and (b) the National Secretariat Mr Hayes: I have asked my officials to consider the for Regional Development Agencies in the last Skills Commission’s recommendations. The report also 12 months. [2429] refers to areas of policy that are the responsibility of 393W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 394W the Secretary of State for Education. I will respond to Mr Andrew Mitchell: I do not intend to allocate funds the recommendations after they have been considered from the Department for International Development’s jointly by our two Departments. (DFID’s) budget to peacekeeping or military operations in the next 12 months. Vocational Training: West Midlands DFID resources are not spent on UK military operations. Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Funding for the UK’s legal obligation to contribute Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he plans to to international peacekeeping will continue to be met take to increase the skills level of the workforce in (a) through the peacekeeping budget, an annual claim on Dudley North constituency, (b) the borough of the Treasury Reserve. UK discretionary peacekeeping Dudley and (c) the West Midlands. [1519] activity, will continue to be funded by the tri-departmental Conflict Pool, which is allocated to DFID, Ministry of Mr Hayes: The Department for Business, Innovation Defence (MOD), and the Foreign and Commonwealth and Skills is seeking to drive up the skills levels of the Office (FCO) by the Treasury separately from core workforce by directing public funding where it will departmental budgets. bring the clearest benefits. Developing Countries: Children We will also make sure that employers and individuals have the information they need to make the best choices Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State about investing in training. We have begun to rebalance for International Development what steps he plans to skills provision by redeploying £150 million of Train to take to reduce levels of child poverty in developing Gain funding to create 50,000 high-quality Apprenticeship countries. [2211] places, focused on small and medium sized enterprises. We are also taking action to set colleges and training Mr Andrew Mitchell: In the coming months the organisations free from excessive bureaucracy and direct Department for International Development (DFID) state control, to give them the freedom to respond will be reviewing its aid programme to determine how better to local needs. we can achieve better value for money for the taxpayer The Skills Funding Agency is responsible for the and accelerate progress towards the Millennium delivery of public funds for skills training, including Development Goals (MDGs). Apprenticeships. Dudley and the West Midlands will The UK is committed to helping achieve the MDGs, benefit from the refocusing of funding towards higher- which will reduce child poverty in developing countries. quality training with clearer benefits. Over £31 million For example as part of our work toward the education of public funding will support skills training in the MDGs of universal primary education and gender parity Dudley area in 2010/11 covering a diverse range of in all levels of education, we are funding five million programmes to meet the needs of individuals and employers, children to go to primary school. including apprentices. Learners resident in the Dudley Developing Countries: Climate Change North constituency are accessing these opportunities and others in the wider region to raise their skill levels Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for and improve their lives. £509 million will support skills International Development when funding his training in the wider West Midlands region. Department expects to allocate for climate adaptation in the next 12 months. [1746] Mr Andrew Mitchell: I expect the United Kingdom to INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT spend approximately £300 million this year on climate Departmental Flags adaptation in developing countries, as part of the Fast Start commitment agreed at Copenhagen. This will help Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for poor people to cope with the impact of climate change, International Development what his policy is on flying including more frequent droughts and floods. For example the Union flag each day from each official building for in Bangladesh UKaid is helping to protect more than which his Department is responsible. [1810] 400,000 very poor people from floods by raising their homesteads onto earth platforms. Mr Andrew Mitchell: At our UK headquarters in East Kilbride, the Department for International Development (DFID) has chosen to fly the Union flag EDUCATION on a daily basis from its highest centre pole. DFID’s UK headquarters in London does not have a flagpole Academies: Public Consultation and therefore we are unable to fly the Union flag at this building. The decision on flying the Union flag in our Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for country offices depends on whether they have a flagpole. Education what steps he plans to take to ensure that I am investigating the possibility of procuring a second the views of staff and their trade unions are taken into hand flagpole at minimum cost for DFID’s UK account in the establishment of academy schools. headquarters in London. [1764] Departmental Public Expenditure Mr Gibb: The governing body, which includes staff representation, must agree that the school can become Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for an academy before an application is made. Guidance International Development whether he expects to issued for schools wishing to convert to an academy allocate funding from his Department to (a) provides further detailed information and is available peacekeeping and (b) military operations in the next at: 12 months. [1747] www.education.gov.uk/academies 395W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 396W

In addition, during the conversion process, the Michael Gove: The Department for Education and current employer of school staff (either the local its predecessor, the Department for Children Schools authority or governing body) will be required to and Families, has made no employees redundant. conduct a TUPE consultation with all staff and the The Department is subject to the same recruitment unions as part of the staff transfer process. restrictions as all other Government Departments. It Children: Databases has not yet identified any necessary additional reductions to its non-frontline staff and therefore Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for cannot provide any estimate in relation to cost. Education how many children in each local education The cost to the Department of any release payments authority (a) are and (b) are not recorded on the this year will be disclosed in the Department’s ContactPoint database. [2208] Resource Accounts for 2010/11.

Tim Loughton [holding answer 14 June 2010]: ContactPoint was designed to hold basic information Departmental Reorganisation on every child in England, by gathering data from a range of national and local data sources. The system is not set up to run reports on numbers of children in Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for each local authority. Education what his estimate is of the cost of renaming his Department. [109] Children: Internet Michael Gove: The re-naming of the Department for Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Education cost £5,250. for Education whether he plans to maintain the Home Access programme for disabled children and those from low income backgrounds following the closure of Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for BECTA. [1410] Education what estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of renaming his Department. [528] Mr Gibb [holding answer 8 June 2010]: The Home Access programme will continue until the total Michael Gove [holding answer 7 June 2010]: The available for grants has been awarded. The programme re-naming of the Department for Education cost includes full assistive technology provision for learners £5,250. with special educational needs (SEN) which is expected to continue until March 2011. Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Electronic Equipment Education what estimate he has made of the cost of renaming his Department; and whether all branded Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for facilities and services of his Department are to be Education how many (a) plasma and (b) LCD re-branded. [879] televisions there are in ministerial offices in his Department. [386] Michael Gove: The re-naming of the Department for Education cost £5,250. New facilities and services will Michael Gove: There are five plasma and one LCD use the Department for Education brand where televisions in Ministers’ offices at the Department for appropriate. We will take individual decisions about Education. These were installed between February and branding for existing facilities and services in order to July 2007. minimise costs and waste. Departmental Public Expenditure

Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Free Schools Education when and in what form he plans to publish a list of all items of expenditure by his Department over Ed Balls: To ask the Secretary of State for Education £25,000. [271] how many full-time civil servants in his Department have been allocated to work on policy development and Michael Gove: The Prime Minister has written to programme delivery in relation to free schools. [1211] Cabinet Ministers reiterating transparency commitments made in the Coalition Programme for Government, and setting out a timetable for achieving Michael Gove: Free schools will open as academies. them. In particular, all new items of central There are currently around 115 civil servants in the Government spending over £25,000 will be published Department for Education engaged directly in work on online in an open format from November 2010. policy development and programme delivery related to academy schools. There is a substantial number of Departmental Redundancy Pay other civil servants in the Department who make a significant contribution to policy development and Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for programme delivery related to academy schools as part Education what his most recent estimate is of the of their wider role. In addition there are 47 staff in the annual cost to his Department of redundancy Young People’s Learning Agency involved in funding payments for (a) front line and (b) other staff. [633] and supporting open academies. 397W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 398W

JUSTICE Bill of Rights Self-defence Law Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 16. Mr Bailey: To ask the Secretary of State for when the Commission to investigate the creation of a Justice what plans he has to bring forward proposals to British Bill of Rights will be appointed. [1676] change the law on self-defence. [2231] Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Government will make a Nick Herbert: We are reviewing the law and its statement to Parliament on the appointment of the interpretation carefully and will explore all options Commission on a Bill of Rights in due course. before bringing forward proposals. We must make sure that the responsible citizen acting in self defence or the Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) prevention of crime has the appropriate level of legal whether the Government’s proposed British Bill of protection. Rights will include provision for the protection of economic and social rights; [2165] Bilingual Juries (Wales) (2) when he will announce the timetable for the 20. Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Government’s plan to establish a commission to Justice what recent consideration he has given to investigate the creation of a British Bill of Rights. empanelling bilingual juries in courts in Wales; and if [2166] he will make a statement. [2235] Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Government will make a Mr Djanogly: I am aware that the previous statement to Parliament on the terms of reference and Government consulted on this issue and announced in appointment of the Commission on a Bill of Rights in March this year their decision to make no change to due course. the existing position. According to 2001 census results 21% of people in Wales said they could speak Welsh. Departmental Ministerial Appointments That would amount to the exclusion, in every case involving a bilingual jury, of about four fifths of the Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for population of Wales. I believe that juries should be Justice (1) how many special advisers (a) he and (b) selected randomly from the community and am not each other Minister in his Department (i) has convinced that departing from that principle would be appointed to date and (ii) plans to appoint; [317] justified in this instance. Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Victims Groups (1) how many (a) political appointments and (b) other 22. Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for personal appointments he has made since his Justice what plans he has to increase the level of appointment; and at what estimated annual cost to the involvement of victims’ groups in the criminal justice public purse. [366] system. [2237] Mr Kenneth Clarke: I refer the hon. Members to the Nick Herbert: As part of our ambition to build the written answer given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Big Society we are committed to putting more power Minister on 3 June 2010, Official Report, column 99W. and opportunity into people’s hands. I have asked my I also refer to my right hon. Friend the Prime officials for advice on how we take a fresh look at the Minister’s written ministerial statement on 10 June provision of services to victims and I am particularly 2010, Official Report, columns 32-34WS. keen that this includes more meaningful involvement of victims groups. Departmental Official Residences

Guilty Pleas (Pre-court) Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice whether any domestic properties in the gift of the 23. David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Government have been allocated to the use of for Justice what steps are being taken to encourage Ministers in his Department. [1800] defendants to enter guilty pleas before cases come to court. [2239] Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice has not allocated Mr Blunt: It is beneficial to victims who would any domestic properties for the use of Ministers. otherwise have to give evidence, if defendants who are guilty plead guilty at the earliest opportunity. The main Legal Aid Scheme means of encouraging defendants to do so is the long-standing practice of recognising timely pleas of Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice guilty with a reduction in sentence. It is not possible to who will carry out his Department’s planned review of plead guilty before the first appearance in court, but it legal aid. [1677] is open to suspects to co-operate when they are interviewed by the police. It is of considerable Mr Kenneth Clarke: We set out in “The Coalition: advantage to the whole Criminal Justice System, our programme for Government” that we will witnesses and the taxpayer if suspects co-operate in undertake a fundamental review of legal aid to make it this way. There is a case for treating those who do more work more efficiently. I am considering how best to favourably and it is open to the Sentencing Council to take this work forward and will make a statement in consider this. due course. 399W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 400W

Prisoners: Legal Aid Scheme The estimated proportion of defendants proceeded against for rape (including attempted rape) at magistrates Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for courts who were granted bail by the police following Justice what regulations govern unsolicited their arrest in England and Wales in each year between communications from law firms advertising their 2004 and 2008 (latest available) is shown in Table 2. services to prison inmates. [2547] The Court Proceedings Database held by the Ministry of Justice relating to the use of bail by the police and Mr Blunt: Solicitors are regulated by the Solicitors courts does not record whether conditions are attached Regulation Authority, the regulatory arm of the Law to bail in cases where bail is granted by either the police Society. The use of advertisements and other forms of or courts. publicity by solicitors is regulated by its Solicitors’ Table 1: The estimated1 proportion of defendants proceeded against for rape2 at Code of Conduct 2007. The Code provides that firms magistrates courts3 who were granted bail4 and the estimated proportion tried for are generally free to advertise their services, subject to rape at the Crown Court who were granted bail in England and Wales, 2004-085,6 the requirements of rule 7. Rule 7 of the Code permits Percentage solicitors to publicise their firms in a number of ways— Court ensuring that clients and the public have appropriate type 2004 2005 2006 2007 20087 information about the firm and the way it is regulated; Magistrates 21 19 17 19 23 but prohibiting misleading publicity and inappropriate Crown3939404240 approaches for business. 1 It is known that in some police force areas, information on remand decisions is Prisoners’ incoming mail is examined for illicit enclosures not always readily available to those coding court proceedings returns. In certain cases, the return may be mistakenly coded as if no remand had taken but is not routinely read. There are no specific rules place. For magistrates court proceedings, the number of remands and more relating to unsolicited correspondence to named prisoners importantly, the number which are in custody, are believed to be under-recorded from law firms advertising their services. in total. As the breakdown of remands into bail and custody cases for a number of forces is not accurate for a number of forces, estimates have to be made to Prisons do not distribute unsolicited mail that is not provide national figures. addressed to a named prisoner. Advertisements from 2 Includes rape and attempted rape of males and females. 3 Excludes remands/bail data relating to Cardiff magistrates court for April, law firms are commonly carried in specialist prisoner July and August 2008. newspapers which are made available for prisoners to 4 Excludes those remanded in custody at any stage of proceedings at magistrates pick up in communal areas. and Crown courts who may also have been given bail at some stage of those proceedings. 5 Proportions for 2008 have been estimated based on pre-committal remand Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for status. 6 The figures presented in this table have been computed using data that exclude Justice if he will review his policy on access to legal aid those defendants who fail to appear to bail or summons. for prisoners seeking a reduction in the length of their 7 Magistrates courts data for 2008 are provisional and subject to change. sentences. [2550] Note: Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted Mr Djanogly: Under the existing arrangements, prisoners from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police who wish to appeal against their sentence, to ask the forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those Criminal Cases Review Commission to refer their sentence data are used. to the Court of Appeal, or to seek a review of their Source: minimum term of imprisonment, are eligible for legal Prepared by Justice Statistics Analytical Services Table 2: The estimated1 proportion of defendants proceeded against for rape2 at aid, subject to passing the relevant merits and means magistrates courts3 who were granted bail4 by the police following their arrest tests. prior to appearing in court, England and Wales, 2004-085,6 The Government set out in ‘The Coalition: our Percentage programme for government’ that it will undertake a Court 7 fundamental review of legal aid to make it work more type 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 efficiently. We are considering how best to take this Magistrates 62 61 59 63 48 work forward and will make a statement in due course. 1 It is known that in some police force areas, information on remand decisions is not always readily available to those coding court proceedings returns. In certain cases, the return may be mistakenly coded as if no remand had taken Rape: Bail place. For magistrates court proceedings, the number of remands and more importantly, the number which are in custody, are believed to be under-recorded in total. As the breakdown of remands into bail and custody cases for a number Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice of forces is not accurate for a number of forces, estimates have to be made to provide national figures. (1) what proportion of those charged with rape in 2 Includes rape and attempted rape of males and females. England and Wales were granted (a) conditional and 3 Excludes remands/bail data relating to Cardiff magistrates court for April, (b) unconditional bail between charge and verdict in July and August 2008. 4 Excludes those remanded in custody at any stage of proceedings at magistrates each of the last five years; [1583] and Crown courts who may also have been given bail at some stage of those (2) what proportion of those charged with rape in proceedings. 5 Proportions for 2004-08 have been estimated based on pre-committal remand England and Wales were granted (a) conditional and status. (b) unconditional bail between arrest and charge in 6 The figures presented in this table have been computed using data that exclude each of the last five years. [1585] those defendants who fail to appear to bail or summons. 7 Indicates that the data are provisional and subject to change. Note: Mr Blunt: The estimated proportion of defendants Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted proceeded against for rape (including attempted rape) from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police at magistrates courts who were granted bail and the forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection estimated proportion tried for rape at the Crown Court processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. who were granted bail, in England and Wales 2004 to Source 2008 (latest available) is shown in Table 1. Prepared by Justice Statistics Analytical Services. 401W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 402W

Rape: Disclosure of Information HEALTH Cancer: Screening Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what plans the Government has to provide for Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for anonymity of those accused of rape (a) between arrest Health whether he plans to introduce a cancer and charge, (b) between charge and trial and (c) screening programme using the oncimmune blood test; during trial. [1693] and if he will make a statement. [1655]

Mr Blunt: The Government have made clear that they Mr Burstow: The oncimmune blood test is an assay will carefully consider all the options before bringing for the measurement of autoantibodies against a panel proposals to Parliament. of antigens known to be expressed in lung cancer. Research continues into its potential role as part of a Roy Whiting strategy including imaging for early detection of lung cancer in individuals at increased risk. Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for The United Kingdom National Screening Committee Justice (1) how much was spent from the public purse (UK NSC) advises Ministers and the national health on legal aid to Roy Whiting during his appeal seeking service in all four UK countries about all aspects of reduction of the length of his sentence; [2548] screening policy and supports implementation. The UK (2) what estimate he has made of the cost to the NSC draws on latest research evidence and assesses new public purse of the appeal by Roy Whiting against the programmes against a set of internationally recognised length of his sentence. [2549] criteria, covering the condition, the test, the treatment options, the effectiveness and acceptability of the screening Mr Djanogly: The full cost to the public purse of the programme. High Court review of Roy Whiting’s minimum term of The UK NSC last reviewed screening for lung cancer imprisonment is not yet known, as his legal representatives in July 2006 and is due to review its position on screening have up to three months within which to submit their again following the publication of the Health Technology claim for legal aid costs following the conclusion of the Assessment’s (HTA) pilot study results which are part case. I will write to the hon. Member once further of the HTA’s UK Lung Cancer Screening Trial (UKLS). information is available. The UK NSC will also consider any additional new evidence available at that time. Wigan Care Homes: Abuse Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice for what public expenditure projects within (a) Wigan Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health constituency and (b) the Metropolitan borough of (1) if he will ensure that in all cases when allegations Wigan his Department had secured Treasury approval are made to social services or health services of abuse between 1 January 2010 and the date of his of residents of care homes that the police are informed; appointment as Secretary of State. [1691] [2450] (2) if he will hold a meeting with Essex county Mr Djanogly: I have reviewed the significant new council to discuss the findings of the Essex spending decisions taken between 1 January 2010 and Safeguarding Adults Board into the performance of the general election, to ensure that they offer good the Greenways Care Home in Colchester; [2451] value for money and are consistent with the Government’s (3) if he will undertake an investigation into the priorities. No specific spending projects have been approved appropriateness of the transfer by Essex county council within (a) Wigan constituency or (b) the Metropolitan of care homes to care home company Excelcare; and if borough of Wigan. However, many of the spending he will make a statement; [2452] decisions are for national initiatives or programmes, (4) what recent representations he has received about which may have an impact for Wigan constituents. the standard of operation by Excelcare (a) of care Further announcements will be made in due course. homes nationally and (b) of the Greenways Care Home in Colchester. [2453] Young Offender Institutions: Social Services Mr Burstow: Decisions to notify the police of allegations Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for of abuse of a resident in a care home are taken locally Justice how many (a) filled and (b) vacant social by safeguarding adults boards, depending on the nature worker posts there are in each young offender and severity of individual allegations. The Department institution. [1763] does not consider it would be appropriate to introduce a requirement that all such allegations, regardless of Mr Blunt: There is a statutory duty on local authorities circumstances, should be automatically referred to the to provide social work services to children in need. It is police. a matter for local authorities how they choose to fulfil The transfer or sale of care homes by councils to these duties. In 2005, a number of dedicated social independent operators is a matter for local consultation worker posts in young offender institutions (YOIs) were and determination. Local councils are free to decide established by a centrally funded pilot scheme; since how best to provide care services for their populations, this funding came to an end in 2009, the provision of having regard for local need and their budgets. All care social work services has been determined on a case by homes, whether in the independent or public sectors, case basis at a local level, therefore meaningful data is must be registered with and regulated by the Care not available. Quality Commission (CQC). 403W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 404W

The Department has no plans to meet with Essex or local level. It is for PCTs to decide their priorities for county council to discuss the findings of the Essex investment locally, taking into account their local Safeguarding Adults Board into the performance of the circumstances and priorities set out in the NHS Operating Greenways Care Home in Colchester. The Department Framework. has received no other recent representations about the It is this Government’s policy to enhance freedom for standard of operation by Excelcare, either nationally or local government and PCTs as much as possible by at the Greenways Care Home in Colchester. reducing the ring-fencing of monies, freeing up resources We are informed by CQC that 35 services operated by to concentrate on local priorities and the delivery of Excelcare, including 33 residential care and nursing essential frontline services. However, it is important that homes, are registered with it. CQC meets with Excelcare local government and PCTs ensure that they account regularly to discuss the quality of care services operated locally for the priorities they determine. by the company. Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease: Health At the most recent meeting, in late February 2010, Services 28 of 35 Excelcare services were rated “good”, five “adequate” and one was yet to be rated by CQC. One Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for was rated “poor”. In the case of this service, CQC was Health how much funding has been provided for content with the company’s action plan for improvement. chronic obstructive pulmonary disease-related research The last Government commenced a review of the by his Department in the last five years. [2152] safeguarding guidance No Secrets. We are considering how to proceed with the review, and will ensure that the Mr Simon Burns: The information requested is shown case raised by the hon. Member is taken into account. in the following table. We will make further announcements with respect to No Secrets and safeguarding in due course. Expenditure on chronic obstructive pulmonary disease research £ million Carers Department of Medical Research Health1,2 Council

Mr Hepburn: To ask the Secretary of State for 2005-06 0.5 0.1 Health (1) what steps he plans to take to assist carers; 2006-07 0.9 0.4 and if he will make a statement; [2277] 2007-08 1.3 1.5 (2) how many people (a) between 18 and 30 years 2008-09 2 2.2 old, (b) between 31 and 40 years old, (c) between 41 2009-10 3 33.5 and 50 years old, (d) between 51 and 60 years old and 1 National Institute for Health Research and Policy Research Programme. 2 Excludes spend by NHS organisations from the research and development (e) over the age of 60 years old were registered as funding allocations made directly to them from 2005-06 to 2008-09. That carers in (i) Jarrow constituency, (ii) South Tyneside, information is not held centrally. (iii) the North East and (iv) England in each year since 3 An estimated figure. 1997; [2278] In addition, the National Institute for Health Research (3) how many carers (a) work full-time and (b) Clinical Research Network is providing national health undertake paid work not on a full-time basis in (i) service research infrastructure support to 57 studies of Jarrow constituency, (ii) South Tyneside, (iii) the North relevance to the question. East and (iv) England. [2279] Departmental Internet

Mr Burstow: The Department does not centrally hold Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the number of registered carers nor the number who what the URL is of each website managed by (a) his undertake paid work. Department and (b) each non-departmental public Carers may register with a range of organisations for body and agency for which his Department is different purposes. There is no single register for carers. responsible. [2368] To assist carers, we will extend the roll out of personal budgets to give people and their carers more control Mr Simon Burns: The Department is responsible for and purchasing power. We will use direct payments to the following websites: carers and better community based provision to improve www.dh.gov.uk access to respite care. We will establish a commission for www.nhs.uk long-term care which will consider how we ensure Non-departmental bodies and agencies for which the responsible and sustainable funding for long-term care. Department is responsible, have the following URLs Carers: Finance that are in line with Cabinet Office guidance: www.aerc.org.uk Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Health www.appointments.org.uk what steps he is taking to ensure that money allocated www.cqc.org.uk to primary care trusts to support carers goes to carers. www.chre.org.uk [2252] www.gscc.org.uk www.hpa.org.uk Mr Burstow: We are currently analysing information www.hfea.gov.uk from strategic health authorities about the priority accorded to supporting carers by primary care trusts (PCTs) in www.hta.gov.uk 2009-10. However, the Department does not break down www.mhra.gov.uk PCT revenue allocations by policies at either a national www.monitor-nhsft.gov.uk 405W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 406W

In addition the Department is also responsible for Mr Simon Burns: We have made it clear that the reviewing, converging and closing the following websites national health service is to focus on securing improved as part of its commitment to Cabinet Office under health outcomes for patients rather than on top-down Transformational Government: process targets that do not lead to improvements in www.18weeks.nhs.uk/ patient health. We will be discussing with the profession www.adb.dh.gov.uk/ and their representatives what this means for existing general practitioner contractual arrangements over the www.arsac.org.uk/ coming months. www.asthmar-d.org.uk/ www.breastfeeding.nhs.uk/ Health Bill www.pharmacopoeia.co.uk/ www.buginvestigators.co.uk/ Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what his timetable is for introduction and consideration www.clean-safe-care.nhs.uk of the Health Bill. [2124] www.comare.org.uk/ www.connectingforhealth.nhs.uk Mr Simon Burns: As announced in the parliamentary www.ct-toolkit.ac.uk/ debates on the Queen’s Speech, the Government will www.east-of-england-rdsu.org.uk/ seek to introduce a Health Bill in the autumn. www.health4work.nhs.uk Health Services: EU Action www.healthystart.nhs.uk/ www.hsru.co.uk/ Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health www.hgc.gov.uk/ what his policy on the proposed EU cross-border health directive is; what assessment his Department has www.immunisation.nhs.uk/ made of its effect on the NHS; and what consultation www.info.doh.gov.uk/doh/iar.nsf?open he intends to undertake on this matter prior to the www.dh.gov.uk/ agreement of any EU directive. [1752] www.invo.org.uk/ Anne Milton: The Government, along with many www.nhsidentity.nhs.uk/ other European Union member states, support the idea www.nhsplus.nhs.uk/ of codifying existing European Court of Justice case www.nhs-procure21.gov.uk/ law relating to article 56 of the treaty on the funding of www.nibsc.ac.uk/ the European Union. The Government’s assessment of www.photolibrary.nhs.uk/ the Council of Ministers draft of the EU cross-border healthcare directive is that it delivers a number of key www.rdinfo.org.uk/ aims as follows: www.rdlearning.org.uk/ to protect the right of the home member state to decide www.rddirect.org.uk/ entitlements to health care, whether locally or nationally; www.rdsu.org.uk/ to ensure that member states can operate a meaningful system www.nhsft-regulator.gov.uk/ of prior authorisation for hospital care and other specialised care; www.shape.dh.gov.uk/ to maintain the ‘gatekeeper’ function (i.e. to maintain the UK www.smokefreeengland.co.uk/ Commissioner, general practitioner and consultant determination www.socialworkandcare.co.uk/ of entitlements to treatment through the national health service); www.valuingpeople.gov.uk/ and to avoid the extension of EU competence, whether through the active text of the directive (e.g. EU-wide health care standards) Departmental Private Finance Initiative or through powers delegated in the directive (e.g. legally binding measures on eHealth). Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department launched a consultation on the Health if he will estimate the revenue cost of each European Commission’s proposals for a directive on project sponsored by his Department under the private the application of patients’ rights in cross-border health finance initiative over the lifetime of the project. [1824] care in October 2008 and published the response in April 2009. A partial impact assessment was also published Mr Simon Burns: The information in respect of the in October 2008, which estimated that demand was low private finance initiative (PFI) schemes has been placed and therefore the cost to the NHS would be limited. in the Library. The list shows all national health service Further consultation will follow when a final directive is trusts, NHS foundation trusts and primary care trusts agreed with the European Parliament. with a PFI contract with the name and location of the Mental Health Services scheme; the capital value; the length of the contract and the annual unitary charge (which are uprated annually Esther McVey: To ask the Secretary of State for for inflation), and which comes from revenue budgets. Health (1) what steps his Department is taking to reduce waiting times for people assessed as requiring General Practitioners: Standards cognitive behavioural therapy; [2599] (2) what his policy is on the provision of access to Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (a) talking therapies and (b) cognitive behavioural what steps he plans to take to reduce the number of therapy for those diagnosed with severe mental health targets which GPs are expected to meet. [2123] problems. [2600] 407W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 408W

Mr Burstow: We have set out, in “Our Programme for In the meantime, SHAs will continue to have a vital Government”, a commitment to ensure greater access role in delivering financial control and performance, to talking therapies to reduce long-term costs for the and driving improvements in quality and productivity. national health service. This is a clear public health NHS: Finance priority for us and we are currently working to identify how we will take forward this commitment. Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Psychological therapies can be a key element of the Health how much funding he plans to allocate to treatment of people with severe and enduring mental hospitals for the purpose of providing patient care for health conditions, particularly when these conditions the first 30 days after discharge as a consequence of the are experienced alongside depression and anxiety disorders. proposals announced on 8 June 2010; and if he will In these cases, the delivery of cognitive behavioural make a statement. [2081] therapy and other National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence-compliant therapies is the recommended Mr Simon Burns: At this early stage, it is not possible treatment. Services for these clients is largely provided to provide the detailed financial information requested. by psychology departments in specialist mental health trusts. The implementation of “improving access to Plans for the implementation of this policy, which is psychological therapies”services for people in community designed to better align payments in the national health settings with mild to moderate conditions will reduce service to drive up the quality of care that patients the number of referrals to specialist mental health receive, will be progressed over the coming months. trusts and enable them to focus on providing services to Issues relating to financial flows will be addressed as those with severe and enduring mental illness. part of this work. NHS: Standards Mental Health Services: Children Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) which datasets were used to measure Health if he will take steps to ensure that children with primary care trust performance against local indicators a dual diagnosis of a mental health problem and in the world class commissioning assurance process; learning disability have both diagnoses recorded in the and if he will publish such datasets for the outcome (a) child and adolescent mental health services indicator (a) mental health patients in employment, commissioning process, (b) children and young (b) access to psychological services, (c) reduce acute people’s plans and (c) children’s health needs inpatient admissions to mental health units, (d) adults assessments. [884] in contact with secondary mental health services in settled accommodation, (e) health improvement in deprived areas, (f) falls and (g) 28 day unplanned Mr Burstow: It is for local partners to agree how best readmission; [1619] to record and reflect in the processes for commissioning of child and mental heath the needs of those children (2) which datasets are used to measure primary care with both a mental health problem and a learning trust world class commissioning scores; and if he will disability. publish these datasets available for the outcome indicator (a) delayed transfers of care, (b) under 18 Current guidance states that each local Children and conception rate, (c) deaths from chronic liver disease, Young People’s Plan must identify action to improve (d) suicide and injury undetermined intent mortality outcomes for children, including physical and mental rate, (e) drug treatment waiting times, (f) percentage health and emotional well-being, with particular reference drug users effective treatment, (g) rate of hospital to the needs of children with disabilities. These will admissions per 100,000 for alcohol related harm and inform the services that are commissioned. (h) percentage of all deaths that occur at home. [1620] Children’s health needs assessments and the Children and YoungPeople’s Plan feed into the Child and Adolescent Mr Simon Burns: World class commissioning (WCC) Mental Health Services (CAMHS) commissioning process. assurance assesses primary care trusts (PCTs) commissioning capabilities across three elements; outcomes, NHS competencies and governance. PCTs have selected up to eight health outcomes as priorities for their local population. The majority are Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health selected from a national list with up to three defined what his plans are for the future of strategic health locally. The national list of outcome measures is contained authorities. [1894] in the “World Class Commissioning Assurance Handbook, 2009-10”, copies of which have been placed in the Mr Simon Burns: The coalition agreement made clear Library. In addition, two outcomes are set for all PCTs: that the Government intend to establish a new independent reducing health inequalities and increasing life expectancy. NHS Commissioning Board, to allocate resources and The WCC health outcome data is available for PCTs provide commissioning guidelines. and other national health service professionals via the The NHS Commissioning Board will combine functions NHS Information Centre. There are no plans to publish currently provided by the Department and strategic these datasets nationally. health authorities (SHAs), and deliver these in a much more streamlined way. The NHS Commissioning Board Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Health will exercise its functions through the regional offices what plans he has to ensure consistency of standards that will report directly to the chief executive. between primary care trusts. [1684] 409W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 410W

Mr Simon Burns: The Department will set out proposals approximately £570 million. We are not able to break on the future role and functions of primary care trusts down this number due to confidentiality clauses in our in due course. contracts with the various manufacturers. Respite Care This expenditure includes stocks of antivirals which continue to be available for future pandemic preparedness. It also includes stocks of H1N1 vaccine which are being Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State held as a strategic reserve. for Health (1) whether it is his policy to ring-fence funding allocated to respite care; and if he will make a statement; [2270] (2) what his policy is on the provision of respite care LEADER OF THE HOUSE for carers. [2271] Adjournment Debates Mr Burstow: This Government recognise that breaks from caring is one of the top priorities for carers in Chris Bryant: To ask the Leader of the House (1) if terms of the sort of support they want. he will make provision for hon. Members to submit Resources allocated for carer support by the previous applications for adjournment debates online; [2120] Government was not ring-fenced. We are examining (2) if he will make provision for hon. Members to how effectively existing arrangements are being table and add their names to early-day motions online. implemented. We are currently analysing information [2121] from strategic health authorities about the priority accorded to supporting carers by primary care trusts (PCTs). In Sir George Young: The arrangements for submitting addition, we will consider how local authority direct applications for adjournment debates, and for tabling payments and personal budgets can be used in ways and adding names to early-day motions, are a matter that enable both carers and the people that they care for for the House. to access community support, including respite. Any proposals to extend further the facilities for hon. It is this Government’s policy to enhance freedom for Members to initiate or participate in the proceedings of local government and PCTs as much as possible by the House online would have to incorporate robust reducing the ring-fencing of monies, freeing up resources authentication procedures, as well as demonstrating to concentrate on local priorities and the delivery of value for money. essential frontline services. However, it is important that local government and PCTs ensure that they account Parliamentary Contributory Pension Fund locally for the priorities they determine. Social Services: Kirklees Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Leader of the House what his most recent estimate is of the extent of Simon Reevell: To ask the Secretary of State for unfunded pension liability of the Parliamentary Health what assessment his Department has made of Contributary Pension Fund. [1910] the quality of adult social care provision in the Sir George Young: The Parliamentary Contributory Kirklees local authority area. [2320] Pension Fund (PCPF) is a funded pension scheme, Mr Burstow: The assessment of the quality of adult with assets totalling £367.2 million, at last valuation, social care provision locally is the responsibility of the whose costs are met from contributions from members Care Quality Commission (CQC), as regulator of health of the Fund, investment returns and an Exchequer and adult social care services. contribution. We are informed by CQC that it considers that Kirklees The Government Actuary undertakes a triennial council is performing well in delivering adult social care valuation in which he makes recommendations as to the outcomes for people in its area. A copy of CQC’s most necessary Exchequer contribution to the PCPF, in order recent performance report for the council—for 2008-09— to finance the pensions for future service of Members, has been placed in the Library. Ministers and Office Holders, and any deficit. The Exchequer contribution can rise or fall depending on CQC also regulates individual social care providers in factors such as assumed investment returns and longevity the Kirklees area. It publishes quality ratings for all assumptions. individual social care services in its online directory of care services. This is available at: The deficit (unfunded liability) calculated as at www.cqc.org.uk/findcareservices.cfm 1 April 2008 (the date of the last valuation) was £50.9 million. Swine Flu: Disease Control Trade Unions Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the total gross expenditure by his Department Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Leader of the House if was on the purchase of (a) anti-viral drugs and (b) he will hold discussions with trade unions representing vaccines to combat swine influenza in the last House of Commons staff on any proposed 18 months. [2130] Parliamentary reforms which affect them. [1971]

Anne Milton: The Department’s spend on antivirals Sir George Young: I am happy to meet trade unions and vaccines for pandemic influenza preparedness and representing staff of the House to discuss any matter the swine flu outbreak in the last 18 months amounts to falling within my responsibilities which may affect them. 411W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 412W

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Website URL

Departmental Internet Public Lending Right www.plr.uk.com Royal Armouries www.royalarmouries.org Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Sir John Soane’s Museum www.soane.org Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what the URL is Sport England www.sportengland.org of each website managed by (a) his Department and Tate Gallery www.tate.org.uk (b) each non-departmental public body and agency for UK Anti-Doping www.ukad.org.uk which his Department is responsible. [2363] UK Film Council www.ukfilmcouncil.org.uk UK Sport www.uksport.gov.uk John Penrose: The URLs of each website managed Victoria and Albert Museum www.vam.ac.uk by (a) my Department and (b) each non-departmental VisitBritain www.visitbritain.com public body1 (NDPB) and agency are in the following Wallace Collection www.wallacecollection.org table. 1 The URL of the main website of each NDPB has been Advisory NDPBs provided in the table. To provide all URLs for each Advisory Committee on Historic www.english-heritage.org.uk NDPB would incur disproportionate cost. Wreck Sites Advisory Committee on National www.nationalhistoricships.org.uk/ Website URL Historic Ships pages/the-advisory-committee.html Advisory Committee on the www.gac.culture.gov.uk/role/ (a) My Department Governments Art Collection index.asp Department for Culture, Media and www.culture.gov.uk Advisory Council on Libraries www.culture.gov.uk/what_we_do/ Sport (main) libraries/3408.aspx www.dcms.gov.uk Legal Deposit Advisory Panel www.webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ www.culture.gov.uk/what_we_do/ BBC Charter Review www.bbccharterreview.org.uk Libraries/legal_deposit/ Culture and Sport Evidence www.culture.gov.uk/case members_ldap.htm Programme (CASE) Public Lending Right Advisory www.plr.uk.com/allaboutplr/ DCMS image bank www.dcmsimagebank.co.uk Panel plrCommittees/plrCommittees.htm Digital Television www.digitaltelevision.gov.uk Reviewing Committee on the Export www.mla.gov.uk/what/cultural/ Flu guidance www.culture.gov.uk/fluguidance of Works of Art and Objects of export Cultural Interest Lottery grants database www.lottery.culture.gov.uk Spoliation Advisory Panel www.culture.gov.uk/what_we_do/ Government Art Collection www.gac.culture.gov.uk cultural_property/3296.aspx UK World Heritage site www.culture.gov.uk/ukwhportal Theatres Trust www.theatrestrust.org.uk Treasure Valuation Committee www.webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk (b) NDPBs www.culture.gov.uk/what_we_do/ Arts Council www.artscouncil.org.uk VisitEngland www.enjoyengland.com Big Lottery Fund www.biglotteryfund.org.uk Tribunal NDPB — British Library www.bl.uk Horserace Betting Levy Appeal www.hblb.org.uk British Museum www.britishmuseum.org Tribunal for England and Wales Churches Conservations Trust www.visitchurches.org.uk Commission for Architecture and www.cabe.org.uk Agency the Built Environment (CABE) The Royal Parks Website www.royalparks.org.uk English Heritage (The Historic www.english-heritage.org.uk Buildings and Monuments The Royal Parks online shop www.royalparksstore.org.uk Commission for England) Football Licensing Authority www.flaweb.org.uk Departmental Manpower Gambling Commission www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk Geffrye Museum www.geffrye-museum.org.uk Horniman Public Museum and www.horniman.ac.uk Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Public Park Trust Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) what his Horserace Betting Levy Board www.hblb.org.uk estimate is of the cost to the public purse of proposed Imperial War Museum www.iwm.org.uk reductions in numbers of non-frontline staff in his Museum of Science and Industry in www.msim.org.uk Department and its agencies; [485] Manchester Museums, Libraries and Archives www.mla.gov.uk (2) what his most recent estimate is of the annual Council cost to his Department of redundancy payments for National Gallery www.nationalgallery.org.uk (a) front line and (b) other staff employed by (i) his National Heritage Memorial Fund www.hlf.org.uk/NHMFWeb/ Department and (ii) its agency. [631] AboutTheNHMF (including Heritage Lottery Fund) www.hlf.org.uk John Penrose: To deliver savings in 2010-11, the National Lottery Commission www.natlotcomm.gov.uk Department is making savings on its non-pay budgets, National Maritime Museum www.nmm.ac.uk and through reducing spend on non-permanent staff. National Museum of Science and www.nmsi.ac.uk The Department and its agency will take all possible Industry steps to avoid compulsory redundancies. We are working National Museums Liverpool www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk closely with staff and unions to ensure this outcome. National Portrait Gallery www.npg.org.uk We will not be making final decision on these items Natural History Museum www.nhm.ac.uk until overall spending figures have been confirmed through Olympic Delivery Authority www.alastinglegacy.co.uk the usual Budget and public spending review processes Olympic Lottery Distributor www.olympiclotterydistributor.org.uk later this year. 413W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 414W

Departmental Pay England and Wales East Midlands Leicester

Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, 2007 5,126 221 23 Olympics, Media and Sport how much was paid in 2008 6,338 277 28 bonuses to civil servants in his Department in 2009-10. 2009 7,178 290 30 [2185] 1 Please see statistical bulletin for response rates for each year. John Penrose: The Department for Culture, Media and Sport paid a total of £645,262 in bonuses to staff in Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, the financial year 2009-10. Awards were made in line Olympics, Media and Sport (1) how many (a) premises with Cabinet Office principles and guidelines on and (b) independent retailers in (i) England, (ii) the performance-related pay. East Midlands and (iii) Leicester had their licences to sell alcohol revoked (A) for any reason and (B) in Departmental Travel circumstances where the persistent sale of alcohol to persons under the age of 18 years had been demonstrated in each of the last five years; [2574] Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what the (a) (2) how many independent retailers have had their name and (b) version is of each computer software licence to sell alcohol revoked in (a) England, (b) the package used by his Department to calculate its travel East Midlands and (c) Leicester in each of the last five costs. [2483] years. [2575]

John Penrose: The Department does not operate a John Penrose: The Alcohol, Entertainment and Late dedicated software package for the recording and calculation Night Refreshment Licensing Statistical Bulletin collects of its travel costs. It receives management information the number of licences revoked, but does not indicate on a monthly basis from providers of travel booking why or the type of premises involved. Licences may be services and procurement cards in the form of excel revoked following a review by the licensing authority spreadsheets. These are then collated by the procurement for a number of reasons, including persistent selling of team for the corporate accounting system. alcohol to children. However, the persistent sale of alcohol to children is a specific criminal offence under Licensed Premises section 147A of the Licensing Act 2003. The table lists premises licences or club premises certificates that were revoked, following a completed Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, 1 Olympics, Media and Sport how many (a) premises review . and (b) independent retailers in (i) England, (ii) the 1 Please see statistical bulletin for response rates for each year. East Midlands and (iii) Leicester (A) applied for and (B) were granted (1) alcohol licences and (2) 24-hour England and Financial year Wales East Midlands Leicester alcohol licences in each of the last five years, [2570] 2006-07 92 6 2 John Penrose: The Alcohol, Entertainment and Late 2007-08 155 17 8 Night Refreshment Licensing Statistical Bulletins collect 2008-09 154 18 6 the number of applications for premises licences and club premises certificates and the number granted in This table lists premises licences that were suspended England and Wales. by a court1. Under the Licensing Act 2003, premises licences and 1 Please see statistical bulletin for response rates for each year. club premises certificates may authorise regulated England and entertainment and/or late night refreshment as well as Financial year Wales East Midlands Leicester the sale or supply of alcohol. It is not possible to identify separately licences and certificates that authorise 2006-07 170 7 0 the sale or supply of alcohol or sale or supply of 2007-08 18 0 0 alcohol for 24 hours in their standard timings. 2008-09 12 0 0 Prior to 6 April 2007 premises licence could be suspended following a review. The following table lists the number of applications From 6 April 2007, a Premises Licence could be suspended by a court, under for premises licences and club premises certificates and Section 147B(1) of the Licensing Act 2003 (as amended by the Violent Crime the number that were granted in each year1. Reduction Act 2006) for the sale or supply of alcohol, following an offence of persistently selling to underage children.

Financial year England and Wales East Midlands Leicester Public Houses Applied Granted Applied Granted Applied Granted

2006-07 15,154 14,486 1,956 1,871 98 91 Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007-08 12,586 11,837 954 931 86 77 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many public 2008-09 10,800 10,165 883 769 88 81 houses there were in each of the last 10 years. [1031]

The following table lists the number of premises John Penrose: The Department does not collate licensed for the sale or supply of alcohol for 24 hours in information specifying the number of public houses. their standard timings, on 31 March in each of the The Department’s Statistical Bulletin on Alcohol, following years1. Entertainment and Late Night Refreshment does, however, 415W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 416W identify the number of premises authorising the sale or (4) what electrical items of each type have been supply of alcohol by means of a premises licence or a purchased for the (a) offices and (b) flatsat10and11 club premises certificate. Downing Street since 7 May 2010; and what the These modelled figures apply not only to public monetary value was of those items; [1927] houses, but also to other licensed premises permitted to (5) what estimate he has made of the refurbishment make on-sales or both on-and-off sales or supplies of and maintenance costs made to the (a) offices and (b) alcohol, such as hotels and restaurants. Modelled estimates flats at 10 and 11 Downing Street since 6 May 2010. have been rounded to the nearest 100. [1928]

Premises licences permitted to sell or supply alcohol, Mr Maude: The Government are legally required to As at 31 March excluding off-sales only maintain the Downing street buildings to standards

2007 112,300 appropriate to its Grade 1 and 2 listed status in consultation 2008 117,100 with English Heritage. In addition to providing office 2009 116,500 accommodation, the building also fulfils an important Source: representational role. Information on improving Cabinet DCMS Statistical Bulletin: Alcohol, Entertainment and Late Night Refreshment Office buildings, including the Downing street estate is Licensing: England and Wales, April 2008 to March 2009 included in the annual Cabinet Office resource accounts. http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.culture.gov.uk/images/ research/Licensing_Statistical_Bulletin_2009.pdf No public funds have been spent on interior design, Prior to this period, licensing information was published electrical goods or re-carpeting for the offices or flats at by the Home Office. This information can be found in 10 and 11 Downing street since 6 May 2010. the DCMS Statistical Bulletin Liquor Licensing England It is anticipated that work to the No.11 flat will be and Wales, July 2003 June 2004, page 8: carried out in summer 2010. There are no plans for any http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http:/ work to the No. 10 flat. www.culture.gov.uk/images/research/7138BLiquorReport.pdf China Task Force

Wigan Tony Baldry: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office when he next expects the UK China Taskforce to Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for meet; and if he will make a statement. [2254] Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) for what public spending projects within (a) Wigan constituency and Mr Maude: The chairmanship of the China Taskforce (b) the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan his is an appointment made by the Prime Minister. We Department had secured Treasury approval between would expect the taskforce to meet once a new Chair 1 January 2010 and the date of his appointment as has been appointed. Secretary of State; [1696] Civil Servants: Recruitment (2) what projects his Department is funding within (a) Wigan constituency and (b) the Metropolitan Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Borough of Wigan. [1697] Office what consideration he has given to the introduction of a revised version of the European Fast John Penrose: The Government are reassessing spending Stream for 2010. [2326] approvals granted between 1 January 2010 and the general election to ensure that they offer good value for Mr Maude: A revised version of the European Fast money and are consistent with the Government’s priorities. Stream was introduced for the 2010 Fast Stream recruitment Further announcements will be made in due course. round. 21 new European Fast Streamers have been recruited and will be placed in a range of Government The Department does not hold information on projects Departments. in the Wigan constituency or the metropolitan borough of Wigan which are funded by its arm’s length bodies, Departmental Pay and collating this information would incur disproportionate cost. Tom Brake: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how much was paid in bonuses to civil servants in his Department in (a) 2008-09 and (b) 2009-10. [2174] CABINET OFFICE Mr Maude: The amount paid in non-consolidated 10 Downing Street: Repairs and Maintenance awards to civil servants in the Cabinet Office under the last Government for the years 2008-09 and 2009-10 is Mr Watson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet detailed as follows: Office (1) how much has been spent on interior design Performance Total paid in non- in relation to office refurbishments at the (a) offices year Paid in consolidated awards (£) and (b) flats at 10 and 11 Downing Street since 7 May 2010; [1923] 2008-09 2009-10 1,769,265 (2) how much has been spent on re-carpeting the (a) 2007-08 2008-09 1,745,118 offices and (b) flats at 10 and 11 Downing Street since There is also a small number of staff who received 6 May 2010; [1924] in-year non-consolidated awards over this period. These (3) when he expects the refurbishment of the decisions are delegated to line managers and as such the kitchens in the flats at 10 and 11 Downing Street to be total cost is not held centrally and would be available completed; [1925] only at disproportionate cost. 417W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 418W

Departmental Plants Government Departments: Publications

Mr Watson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Watson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how much has been spent on (a) cut flowers and Office if he will publish under his Department’s Open (b) pot plants for the (i) offices and (ii) flats at 10 and Data Initiative the title of each post in each (a) 11 Downing Street since 7 May 2010. [1926] Department, (b) non-departmental public body and (c) agency that remains unfilled as a result of the freeze on public sector recruitment. [1933] Mr Maude: No money has been spent on flowers or pot plants for offices or flats at 10 and 11 Downing Mr Maude: We expect Departments to restructure to street since 7 May 2010. handle the roles left vacant by the recruitment freeze. Organograms will be published online for every Department Departmental Public Expenditure which will reflect these changes. Overall savings from the freeze are estimated at £120 million. Mr Watson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Watson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office when and in what form he plans to publish a list Office whether he plans to publish the job titles and of all items of expenditure by his Department over descriptions of civil servants in his Department under £25,000. [267] the Open Data Initiative. [1935]

Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office is currently working Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office has published with the Treasury and the Transparency Board, who are organisation charts and staff lists for the Cabinet Office, leading on this work to agree the data, format and including No. 10, which provide names of senior civil method of publication of information. servants, their job titles and contact details. These data will be updated later in the year to include the job titles Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet of other civil servants in the Department. The organisation Office what estimate he has made of the cost to his charts can be found at: Department of the (a) implementation of penalty www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/about-cabinet-office/cabinet-office- clauses and payments in its contracts and (b) potential structure.aspx legal action arising from the deferral and cancellation and the data have been released through of contracts and projects under his Department’s plans www.data.gov.uk to achieve cost savings; and whether those estimates are A copy of this information will also be placed in the included in the total cost savings to be achieved by his Library. Department. [557] Private Sector: Manpower Mr Maude: The Efficiency and Reform Group is working to establish the methodology and contractual Mr Redwood: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet implications of this work. Office what his estimate is of the number of private sector jobs in the UK which are sustained by public Departmental Reorganisation sector spending. [2127] Danny Alexander: I have been asked to reply. Mr Watson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Direct general Government employment was 5.5 million Office by what mechanisms his Department informs in the final quarter of 2009—19% of total employment (a) non-departmental public bodies and (b) executive in the UK. The public sector also has an impact on agencies of machinery of Government changes. [1922] employment through its consumption of privately produced goods and services, as well as through providing services, Mr Maude: The Prime Minister notifies Parliament such as education and transport infrastructure, which of significant machinery of government changes. indirectly support the private sector economy. Communication to staff within a Department, including An estimate of the number of private sector jobs those in executive agencies, and communication to those sustained by the public sector in these ways is not outside a Department, such as non-departmental public available. bodies, the wider public sector and customers or businesses who will be affected by the change is the responsibility Public Transport: Timetables of the relevant Department. Mr Watson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Government Departments: Internet Office what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Transport on the publication under the open data initiative of rail and bus timetables in a Mr Watson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet machine readable open format. [2386] Office what steps he is taking to reduce the cost to the public purse of maintaining Government websites; and Mr Maude: My officials are in contact with the if he will make a statement. [2288] Department of Transport about timetable data. The Department for Transport are leading discussions with Mr Harper: I will reply to the hon. Member as soon the Operating Companies about when we can release as possible. this data in an open and re-useable form. 419W Written Answers15 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 420W

Senior Civil Servants: Pay annual full-time rates of £150,000 or more at 31 March 2010. We have committed to extend disclosure to the Mr Watson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet rest of the senior civil service and to those paid by Office what (a) special advisers, (b) consultants and non-departmental public bodies at rates in excess of the (c) civil servants appointed since 6 May are being paid minimum applicable to the senior civil service. These more than £150,000 per annum. [2634] disclosures include non-executives and similar appointments.

Mr Maude: Details of special advisers appointed by this administration are set out in the Prime Minister’s TREASURY statement of 10 June, Official Report, column 32WS. Annuities None are paid more than £150,000 per annum. The remuneration of individuals employed by private Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer sector companies, including consultancies, is a matter what estimate has been made of potential (a) liabilities for the companies concerned. and (b) other costs to the public purse from the For details of recent civil service appointments, I Government’s plans to end the rules requiring refer the hon. Member to the response I gave him on compulsory annuitisation at the age of 75 years. [2159] 14 June, Official Report, column 334W. Mr Hoban: The Government are committed to removing Senior Civil Servants: Pensions the requirement to purchase a pension annuity by age 75. Details of any changes to existing tax rules, including Mr Blunkett: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet fiscal implications, are announced by the Chancellor as Office if he will make it his policy to publish the part of the Budget process. remuneration rates for all persons in receipt of Civil Public Expenditure Service pensions who are employed on non-executive or consultancy contracts with Government departments at rates which exceed the ministerial Mr Watson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer element of the Prime Minister’s salary; and if he will what the estimated number of Government financial make a statement. [1997] transactions of amounts greater than £25,000 was in the latest year for which figures are available. [2289] Mr Maude: There is no prohibition on retired civil servants returning to work. Many Government Danny Alexander: The Treasury does not hold this Departments have chosen to operate a policy of “partial information but the Government have committed to retirement”such that older workers may apply to restructure publish online all new items of central Government their jobs so that they are drawing pension and a spending over £25,000 from November 2010 (with limited reduced salary. This enables Departments to retain skills exemptions on national security and personal privacy and enables staff to extend working lives by moving grounds). gradually into retirement. Mr Watson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer To protect public funds, the civil service pension whether publication of items of departmental scheme operates a policy of “abatement”. This means expenditure above £25,000 per annum will be that, where people are receiving both a civil service mandatory or voluntary. [2290] pension and pay in respect of a contract of service, their pension will be reduced so that the total of pension and Danny Alexander: The Prime Minister has written an pay does not exceed the pay they were receiving before open letter to all Departments on plans to open up drawing their pension. Government data. This included a commitment that all Our transparency commitments were set out in the new items of central Government spending over £25,000 Prime Minister’s letter of 29 May to Cabinet colleagues, would be published online from November 2010. Limited a copy will be placed in the Libraries of the House. On exemptions on national security and personal privacy 1 June we published details of public servants paid at grounds will be permitted.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 15 June 2010

Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE...... 719 JUSTICE—continued Libel Law...... 723 Rape Convictions...... 731 Pleural Plaques ...... 730 Rape Defendants (Anonymity) ...... 723 Prison Building (Costs) ...... 728 Reoffending ...... 727 Prison Capacity...... 722 Sentencing Policy ...... 721 Prison Capacity...... 732 Topical Questions ...... 733 Prison Places...... 730 Victims of Crime...... 732 Probation Service...... 719 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 15 June 2010

Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH...... 46WS PRIME MINISTER ...... 47WS Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Office of Government Commerce ...... 47WS Affairs Council ...... 46WS TRANSPORT ...... 48WS South East Airports Task Force...... 48WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 46WS Vetting and Barring Scheme...... 46WS TREASURY ...... 45WS ECOFIN...... 45WS

JUSTICE...... 47WS WALES...... 48WS International Anti-Corruption Champion ...... 47WS Government of Wales Act 2006 (Section 104)...... 48WS PETITION

Tuesday 15 June 2010

Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY ...... 11P Public Sector Employment...... 11P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 15 June 2010

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 352W CABINET OFFICE—continued Members: Correspondence ...... 352W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 417W Departmental Reorganisation...... 417W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 388W Government Departments: Internet...... 417W Apprentices...... 388W Government Departments: Publications ...... 418W Building Colleges for the Future Programme ...... 389W Private Sector: Manpower...... 418W Departmental Travel ...... 389W Public Transport: Timetables ...... 418W Economic Situation...... 390W Senior Civil Servants: Pay ...... 419W Education Maintenance Allowance...... 390W Senior Civil Servants: Pensions ...... 419W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 390W Higher Education: Student Numbers...... 390W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 368W Regional Development Agencies...... 391W Affordable Housing: Construction...... 368W Train to Gain Programme: West Midlands...... 392W Council Housing: Construction ...... 368W Union Learning Fund...... 392W Departmental Accountancy ...... 368W Vocational Training: Teachers...... 392W Departmental Flags ...... 369W Vocational Training: West Midlands ...... 393W Departmental Official Residences ...... 369W Departmental Redundancy Pay ...... 369W CABINET OFFICE...... 415W Fire Services...... 369W 10 Downing Street: Repairs and Maintenance ...... 415W Home Information Packs...... 370W China Task Force...... 416W Housing and Planning Delivery Grant...... 370W Civil Servants: Recruitment ...... 416W Housing: Construction...... 371W Departmental Pay ...... 416W Housing: Empty Property ...... 371W Departmental Plants ...... 417W Local Government Executive ...... 372W Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— continued continued Local Government Finance ...... 372W Incinerators...... 338W Local Government Finance: West Midlands ...... 372W Wood: EU Action ...... 338W Local Government: Public Consultation...... 372W Wood: Imports...... 338W Marinas: Brighton ...... 373W Planning Permission: Appeals...... 373W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 353W Regional Development Agencies...... 375W Afghanistan: Peace Negotiations ...... 353W Social Rented Housing: Kirklees...... 375W Antarctic...... 353W Social Rented Housing: Wigan ...... 376W Departmental Official Cars...... 353W Tenant Services Authority...... 376W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 354W Travellers: Caravan Sites ...... 377W Diplomatic Service: Housing...... 354W Wigan ...... 377W EU Countries: British Nationals Abroad ...... 354W EU Institutions ...... 355W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 411W European Parliament ...... 356W Departmental Internet ...... 411W European Union: Parliamentary Scrutiny ...... 356W Departmental Manpower...... 412W Falkland Islands: Oil...... 356W Departmental Pay ...... 413W Government Hospitality: Wines...... 356W Departmental Travel ...... 413W Pakistan: Religious Freedom...... 357W Licensed Premises ...... 413W Palestinians: International Assistance ...... 358W Public Houses ...... 414W Passports: Fraud ...... 358W Wigan ...... 415W Russia: Espionage ...... 358W Russia: Human Rights ...... 359W DEFENCE...... 341W South Africa: Football ...... 359W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 341W Sudan: Olympic Games 2012 ...... 360W Armed Forces: Contraceptives ...... 343W Thailand: Press Freedom ...... 360W Armed Forces Day...... 342W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 360W Armed Forces: Dogs ...... 343W Armed Forces: Health Services ...... 343W Armed Forces: Horses...... 344W HEALTH...... 402W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 344W Cancer: Screening ...... 402W Armed Forces: Mental Health Services...... 345W Care Homes: Abuse ...... 402W Armed Forces: Royal Household ...... 346W Carers ...... 403W Armoured Fighting Vehicles ...... 346W Carers: Finance...... 403W Astute Class Submarines...... 347W Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease: Health Chinook Helicopters...... 347W Services ...... 404W Defence...... 348W Departmental Internet ...... 404W Defence Animal Centre...... 348W Departmental Private Finance Initiative ...... 405W Defence Medical Services...... 348W General Practitioners: Standards ...... 405W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 349W Health Bill...... 406W Ex-servicemen: Military Decorations...... 349W Health Services: EU Action ...... 406W Ex-servicemen: Radiation Exposure...... 349W Mental Health Services ...... 406W HMS Sultan...... 349W Mental Health Services: Children ...... 407W Military Aircraft ...... 350W NHS...... 407W Military Aircraft: Helicopters ...... 350W NHS: Finance ...... 408W Military Decorations...... 351W NHS: Standards...... 408W Ministry of Defence Guard Service: Finance...... 351W Respite Care...... 409W Nuclear Weapons...... 351W Social Services: Kirklees...... 409W Radioactive Materials: Transport...... 352W Swine Flu: Disease Control...... 409W

EDUCATION...... 394W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 380W Academies: Public Consultation ...... 394W Community Policing: Finance...... 380W Children: Databases...... 395W Departmental Internet ...... 381W Children: Internet ...... 395W Firearms ...... 382W Departmental Electronic Equipment ...... 395W Forensic Science Service...... 383W Departmental Public Expenditure ...... 395W Gary McKinnon ...... 385W Departmental Redundancy Pay ...... 395W Immobilisation of Vehicles...... 385W Departmental Reorganisation...... 396W Members: Security ...... 385W Free Schools ...... 396W Passports: Lost Property...... 386W Police: Ports ...... 386W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 366W Police: Rural Areas...... 386W Carbon Emissions: Housing...... 366W Rape...... 387W Nuclear Power: Finance ...... 367W UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Nuclear Power Stations: Insurance...... 367W Disabilities ...... 387W Renewable Energy...... 367W Wigan ...... 388W

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 393W AFFAIRS...... 335W Departmental Flags ...... 393W Departmental Pay ...... 335W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 393W Fisheries: Quotas ...... 336W Developing Countries: Children...... 394W Forests ...... 336W Developing Countries: Climate Change ...... 394W Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE...... 397W TRANSPORT—continued Bilingual Juries (Wales)...... 397W Railways: North West ...... 378W Bill of Rights ...... 398W Tolls...... 379W Departmental Ministerial Appointments...... 398W Wigan ...... 379W Departmental Official Residences...... 398W Wigan North Western Station...... 380W Guilty Pleas (Pre-court)...... 397W Legal Aid Scheme...... 398W TREASURY ...... 420W Prisoners: Legal Aid Scheme...... 399W Annuities...... 420W Rape: Bail ...... 399W Public Expenditure...... 420W Rape: Disclosure of Information ...... 401W WALES...... 335W Roy Whiting...... 401W Departmental Policy Advisers ...... 335W Self-defence Law...... 397W Victims Groups...... 397W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 339W Wigan ...... 401W Departmental Flags ...... 339W Young Offender Institutions: Social Services...... 401W Departmental Manpower...... 339W Departmental Official Cars...... 340W LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 410W Departmental Official Residences ...... 340W Adjournment Debates...... 410W Departmental Translation Services ...... 340W Parliamentary Contributory Pension Fund...... 410W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 360W Trade Unions ...... 410W Children: Maintenance ...... 360W Departmental Internet ...... 361W SCOTLAND...... 339W Departmental Mobile Phones ...... 362W Departmental Pay ...... 339W Departmental Official Cars...... 362W Departmental Reviews ...... 339W Departmental Public Appointments...... 363W Financial Services: Education ...... 363W TRANSPORT ...... 377W Future Jobs Fund...... 364W Bus Services: Finance...... 377W Future Jobs Fund: North East ...... 364W Departmental Flags ...... 377W Future Jobs Fund: Wales ...... 364W Departmental Official Residences ...... 378W Incapacity Benefit ...... 364W Northern Rail: Rolling Stock ...... 378W Poverty: Children ...... 365W Public Transport: Carbon Emissions...... 378W Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 366W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 22 June 2010

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 15 June 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 719] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Justice

Saville Inquiry [Col. 739] Statement—(Prime Minister)

Business of the House [Col. 763] Motion—(Mr. Heath)—agreed to

Backbench Business Committee [Col. 778] Amendment (c)—(Mr. Allen)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Backbench Business (Amendment of Standing Orders) [Col. 843] Amendment (a)—(Mr. Allen)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Private Wheel-Clamping Companies [Col. 847] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall UK Parliamentary Sovereignty and the EU [Col. 69WH] Gaza [Col. 92WH] Lymington River [Col. 116WH] Building Schools for the Future (Barking and Dagenham) [Col. 123WH] Constituency Boundaries (Islands) [Col. 130WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 45WS]

Petition [Col. 11P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 335W] [see index inside back page]