Jeanne Miramon-Bonhoure 2012

Entretien avec le maître Harsh Wardhan Saint-Cloud, 21-10-2012 Durée: 40’03

JMB: I am trying to understand how the practice of bansuri has developed in You did not come inside otherwise you would have learned how to do practice because nobody is teaching these things and maybe even they don’t know.

JMB: I remember taking lessons in Delhi from you, and I learnt a lot, I still have all the composition Composition doesn’t matter so much but to play the instrument, to blow in the instrument and how to keep your hand, how to keep your lips and blowing, to start. When we start blowing we have to fill there [shows] and release slowly and we don’t have to stop from our throat it should go freely but we have to give shape with our lips so lips should be … [shows] because some people do like this, some people like this, but it’s not like this. It is not western flute so that blowing is not same. And, this is the harmonic instrument, it is not tempered scale, so you have to learn that, even the flute is good, you have to listen to the drone, and think of the image of the note, it is possible only if you listen to music very much otherwise you don’t know, you listen to western music also but there is difference between the notes. Some notes are different from western notes.

JMB: Sometimes it is little up or little down… Yes. So your pancham is little down you have to make two cents down, then it matches properly, and this is in each note.

JMB: And you learnt that through your practice… Through the practice yes, that’s why, I told you, you stayed outside…

JMB: Yes it was my mistake… If you had come inside…I was giving the lesson how to find the notes because in flute only 7 notes are available and just 5 you have to make with your fingers, your blowing, and your ears. There are not there you have to make them. And it is difficult to make komal re, komal dha, even madhyam also because all are half notes.

JMB: I heard many people talking about your teaching, how did you develop these skills? Because I teach not like a profession, because I take good care for the student, you see Timon, excellent playing now, he is playing so good. He was there at my home for 1 week, and he says that he didn’t learn so much as he learnt in this week. Same type of lessons, because nobody will care, if you are playing fingers are going wrong, fingers going there or there.. they don’t care because they are money oriented people. And that’s why I’m giving free lesson in Delhi on Sundays. Today my son was there, there was 12 students. Four hours lessons, from 10am to 2pm, I just talked on skype, he said there was 12 students. Why they are coming? See I don’t want anyone to prevent from lessons, that’s why I give free lessons.

JMB: And yourself when you learnt… Because my teacher didn’t charge anything.

JMB: It was a different system at that time, the Guru-shishya parampara was very strong? It’s not like I learnt only from flutist, I learnt from vocalist also; that give me big advantage, to know the raga very well in depth. I don’t copy anyone, even my teachers; I want to play as Jeanne Miramon-Bonhoure 2012

I feel playing, and you have to play your own music, if I teach you, I teach you ok but when you perform you have to play your own music. That is what comes in Indian Classical Music. Because I teach you a composition that is written, few taan are written, but alap and all the improvisation is not written. In the beginning I give examples of alap, and taan also to practice so you know that how to make improvisation. But after learning 2, 3 years then I start playing without written, that’s what I do with Christophe and other like that.

JMB: And your Guruji in vocal was also in Delhi? Yes, he was Pt Vinay Chandra Maudgalya, he was the Principal of Gandharva Mahavidyalaya, and there was one scholar teacher Pt Vasant Thakar, great vocalist, as a perfomer he may not be good, he was performing but as a teacher as his knowledge, what he gave, that was the great, now we don’t find such teacher (…) I know some… please don’t record this…

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JMB: I made some genealogy trees of bansuri players in India, of different branch. One of your teachers was Prakash Saxena, am I right? [looking at the trees] Yes, Prakash Narain Saxena, Prakash Wadhera. No, Prahalaad Nath was not a student of Prakash Wadhera. Kailash Sharma, that’s right.

JMB: I know you learnt also from Pt Hariprasad Chaurasia? Yes, yes. Because…I changed my hands after Guruji told me to change, because I was playing same way as Prakash Saxena was playing, but when I had problem with my fingers so I changed my hand.

JMB: So Hariji asked you to change your hand? Yes because I had problem in playing half notes, it was difficult for me to play half notes..

JMB: you were playing like this? With the tip of your fingers? Yes, yes like this, I can show you, I’m looking for the photo to show you….

JMB: and When did you meet Hariji? In 1973, or seventy… yes 73.

JMB: At that time he was just starting to be famous, right? Yes…

JMB: Prakash Saxena was playing only flute or he was singing also? He was playing my flutes, because I was not having flute because nobody give. Then Prakash Saxena gave me one old flute of him, but after few days he needed that flute for himself so I was again handicapped, I didn’t have any flute then I started making flute and now…

JMB: Yes, I think now your flutes are one of the most famous in North India…good quality. I guess it takes lots of time to make those flutes. The bamboo comes from Assam? Yes it comes from Assam and other places also.

JMB: Yes? Which other places? Yes, South India also but… I don’t use south Indian bamboo…

Jeanne Miramon-Bonhoure 2012

JMB: It’s not the same quality…? Quality is quite good also but difficult to find that bamboo, very difficult and it is very thik bamboo, because now south Indian player they are paying my flutes.

JMB: So you make special flute for them? Yes, yes. Carnatic flute is different. [showing a picture] You see, I show you, how I’m holding the flute.

JMB: Oh, yes like that! …the Prasanna family is also holding the flute like this. Yes, like this. Because in this way it was not possible for me … see this: this is my first concert, I was playing concert like that when I changed. People were saying ‘no no don’t change’ but I stopped it; with power then you can do everything.

JMB: So why at that time you were playing this way? Because my teacher was playing same so he didn’t ask me to change, Prakash Saxena was playing like that. He was also the teacher of Prakash Wadhera and he also learnt form Pandit Vinay Chandra Maudgalya.

JMB: and most of the flute players at that time they were playing like this? Prakash Wadhera was playing one more difficult way, it was very difficult to play like this [shows], he was playing like this, I can’t hold the flute like this.

JMB: Ah yes, I heard Pt. Devendra Murdeshwar was also playing this way, no? But Devendra Murdeshwar was playing like this (showing).

JMB: Oh! Even different! Yes! Pannalal Ghosh was plying like this also, I met Devendra Murdeshwar, I didn’t met Pannalal Ghosh because he died before I started learning. So they were closing this hole with this finger [showing]. But it is not possible for us to close this hole with this finger so I created a new way…

JMB: and Hariji was also playing in a different way at that time? No he plays same, he didn’t change anything, because his imagination, his knowledge, and his wheel power and working too much practice, practice too much, god gifted, because there is no match, nobody can do, always so… and his playing also, he doesn’t play any music of any one. Also the family member of [showing Prasanna picture], their teacher.. they follow him, but I play different, completely, completely different. I learnt from him, I was playing many concert with him. So … After one year I changed my fingers, I stopped playing concert.

JMB: because of the fingering?! Yes because it was difficult to make half notes. Because I was playing concerts like this [showing old fingering]. That was my first concert [referring to his picture] but I told Hariji I had problems with half notes. He said it will be difficult to make half notes, so you do like this, he said just like this…. so since that date until today… my all student they play so good.

JMB: yes, it’s true! It is not only Christophe, the other student in India they are playing from the other family they don’t teach to student that thing, to… because they don’t want, if they have competitors…

Jeanne Miramon-Bonhoure 2012

JMB: they have already so many members in the family…but it’s.. No because it is their policy not to teach, I don’t say anything, it is their policy, just teach the outer things, don’t allow to go inside the music..

JMB: well maybe now the young generation is changing a little…? Maybe, I don’t know them, because one Russian girl, went to learn from them, they were asking only money money….

JMB: No…they never ask money to student in India! Maybe it is not true, but she told me, she says, I don’t know. Always…and also other things I don’t want to tell you.

JMB: ok I understand. But they are many members in the family I don’t know all of them, I know the branch of Pt Rajendra Prasanna mainly. Hum…because there was another girl… they gave her one flute, it was such a bad flute, after 8 years, when she starts knowing the notes and she realized this flute is completely out of tune, when she came to buy a flute from me, then she realized what was the different. Because they also don’t have good flutes.

JMB: well as we say it’s not the instrument that makes the musician! Of course for beginners it’s different… So, do you think I forgot some people in this tree? But Julia was my student before.

JMB: Did you know Françoise? She started with Bholanath Prasanna. I met her in Mumbai. Did you know him at that time? No I didn’t know him. I knew him only in 19.. before 89.. because when she came to my house for flute…she was very good, always smiling.

[looking at the trees] JMB: and the branch of Pannalal Ghosh? No, not Raghunath Seth, no he didn’t learn from Pannalal Ghosh. Who is Niranjan Haldipur..? I don’t know him.

JMB: He was the father of Nityanand Haldipur. Maybe… I know Anand [Murdeshwar], he was not playing his father’s flute, he was playing my flute.

JMB: and Devendra Murdeshwar? Devendra Murdeshwar I knew him, I met him. Raghunath didn’t learn from Pannalal Ghosh… because he died in 1960 and I started learning in 1964. Before I was playing in film music, I was not serious.

JMB: so what made you come to Indian Classical Music? Because when I listen to Pannalal Ghosh one concert, I was thinking, ‘what I’m playing? It is nothing, should be like this’; but no one was giving… Raghunath Seth may have teach Clive Bell. Abhay Phagare learnt from me in Delhi and also with Prakash Saxena.

JMB: and how was the relation between the bansuri players at that time, lots of competition? Competition is always there [rire]. But in music there is not competition, everyone plays its own music. Jeanne Miramon-Bonhoure 2012

JMB: bansuri was not so famous at that time… Yes it is Guruji (Hariji) who did it, he… I have his photo playing many concerts…great artist, until today he is 74 years old and still playing great… always, because people they teach, they … want to get good bansuri but he tuned himself, he is singing on bansuri, he is not playing, this is this one thing to know.

JMB: so everyone wants to sing in the instrument? No they want to play the instrument. That is the real music when you can sing …

JMB: What does it mean exactly? What it means that your music should be like your singing, like a singer is singing, to perform like that; to make ‘tuk tuk tuk tuk’ doesn’t mean anything, just making battle with tabla, they don’t have any sense…

JMB: so the vocal style is like a model? No, because Hariji is playing vocal style also. Many people are saying that they are playing like vocal but no one, but he is playing vocal…he plays what he learnt from Annapurna ji and it is very good.

JMB: but she was an instrumentalist It doesn’t matter… music is same..i learnt with vocalist. Because music you can learn like that.

JMB: so do you listen a lot to vocalist still today? Yes, in my computer, the vocal music is most.

JMB: are you listening to old recordings or today’s music? Today’s music is changed, I don’t find depth in the playing, I asked Christophe about this concert [showing Darbar program], he said it was ok, playing well in tune, but depth was not there.

JMB: so to which singer do you think we should listen to today? Bimsen Joshi is best, DV Paluskar very good, and Vasant…no…hmm, Amir Khan sahab, Bade Ghulam Ali Khan…

JMB: and Pandit Rajan&Sajan ji? No, nothing is there, they are just singing themselves, no depth.

JMB: …Ustad ? Rashid Khan yes, you see, he is young but still I appreciate his singing because has developed a very good thing in his singing. Balaram Pathak, Vasav Raj Guru, you wont find many recordings of him, I have few, , Dagar brothers, Gangubai Hangal, and…

JMB: Kishori Amonkar? Kishori Amonkar also you can say, Hirabai Barodekar, Pandit …

JMB: Pandit Jasraj is still singing today He is very good, so much in intonation, nobody is like that.

Jeanne Miramon-Bonhoure 2012

JMB: do you still go to concerts sometimes in Delhi? Yes, yes, ones he was singing, I tuned his tanpura, both tanpuras, and Shubha Mugdal was also playing tanpura with him, during the concert one of his tanpura went out, he asked me ‘Harsh Wardhan, come’! And I went on stage, I tuned the tanpura, Pandit Shankar was sitting in front, listening that concert. And I have the recording of that.

JMB: when was this? Long time back… And...[continues to give artists names] Padmavati Shaligram, Manjulika Mansur, and.. Narayan R?, you wont find many recordings of him. And in instruments , Nissar Hussein Khan, he was very good singer, Roshna Begum and… S? V? she is very scholar.

JMB: like ? She is more big. Prabha Atre is also good. Vidhyadhar Vyas, very good because son of…

JMB: and in flute? Only Hariprasad Chaurasia and Harsh Wardhan. Rakesh Chaurasia is very good, playing wonderful, he is the best, the best, because so much busy not even one day is free, recording, concert, recording, concert, everyday…

JMB: is he teaching also? Yes he is teaching, he was there in in London. Because Shashank was there… For sitar you must listen to Nihkil Banerjee, I’m not saying or anything, only Nikhil Banerjee..and for vocal also . They are many singers but who give you, who gave you from vocal, which makes you to understand something. I have one, I can show you…I will show you Vasaraj Guru…not Malkauns, I show you Ahir Bhairav or Madhuvad Sarang. [play the recording] I heard once Pandit Jasraj ji was praising for him, he was such straight in the target..

JMB: It’s about the voice, the feeling or something else…? Feeling and everything, most of the singer they don’t sing full composition, even … I must not say anything, no flutist playing full composition except Devendra Murdeshwar or Pannalal Ghosh, no one playing vilambit composition, only they play the mukhda and then finished. There is no connection with tala, they are doing alap like this…but no connection. Because why are you playing with tabla if there is no connection, only play with tabla when mukhda comes. Your alap should be with tala and full composition yes. And they don’t sing all the important parts of the composition, but Guruji [Hariji]… he is excellent… and Prakash Saxena excellent for this. They learnt, and Prakash Saxena learnt with Vinay Chandra Maudgalya, so he [Prakash] knew also the composition. He was very talented, if he would have taken risk he would have been flute like Hariprasad Chaurasia. So much in tune that my hairs [raising his hairs up], were like that! Great. I have his photo, I want to go to meet him because… He is staying in Delhi.

JMB: in the vocal composition the lyric is important also? [Searching pictures in his phones. Showing the picture of the Russian girl who came to him after Prasanna]. She was not able to hold even G flute, but when she came to me I said that you will be playing E flute, now she is playing E flute. I’m looking for the pictures of my Guruji. Jeanne Miramon-Bonhoure 2012

JMB: how about the Gurukul in Mumbai? Very good, Guruji did good. I sent my son to learn with Guruji for 6, 7 years. He staid there and learnt.

[Showing the pictures of Prakash Saxena]. Look. He is very old now. But he is still in Delhi, but not playing now, he is very good. Because there is a way of performing, playing: stayi, antara, alap, taan, bol taan, stayi alap, antara alap, bol tan, taans for stayi and antara are different, it has to be differenciated, but even no flute player is following this way, only Guruji does, Rakesh does, but I don’t find, even Rajendra Prasanna I don’t find.

JMB: so do you teach this to your students? Why not? I’m teaching all this things to my students. So, ok?

JMB: Ok. Thank you so much for your time.