Third Session- Thirty-Fifth Legislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba

STANDING COMMITTEE

on

LAW AMENDMENTS

39-40 Elizabeth II

Chairperson Mr. Jack Penner Constituencyof Emerson

VOL. XLI No.7· 7 p.m., MONDAY, JUNE 22,1992

MG-8048 Printed bythe Office of the a.-.s Printer. Province of Msnltobs ISSN 0713-9586 MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thlrty·FifthLegislatur e

Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation

NAME CONSTITUENCY PARTY. ALCOCK, Reg Osborne Liberal ASHTON, Steve Thompson NDP BARREn, Becky Wellington NDP CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights Liberal CERILLI, Marianne Radisson NDP CHEEMA, Guizar The Maples Liberal CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan NDP CONNERY, Edward Portage Ia Prairie PC CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose PC DACOUAY, Louise Seine River PC DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell PC DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NDP DOER, Gary Concordia NDP DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden PC DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach PC DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. Riel PC EDWARDS, Paul St. James Liberal ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside PC ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood PC EVANS, Ciif Interlake NDP EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East NDP FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo PC FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield PC FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley NDP GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Liberal GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa PC HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland NDP HELWER, Edward R. Gimli PC HICKES, George Point Douglas NDP LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Liberal LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas NDP LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert PC MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris PC MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows NDP McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek PC McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West PC MciNTOSH, Linda,Hon. Assiniboia PC MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East PC NEUFELD, Harold Rossmere PC ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. Pembina PC PENNER, Jack Emerson PC PLOHMAN, John Dauphin NDP PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC REID, Daryl Transcona NDP REIMER, Jack Niakwa PC RENDER, Shirley St. Vital PC ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Gladstone PC ROSE, Bob Turtle Mountain PC SANTOS, Conrad Broadway NDP STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC STORIE, Jerry Flin Aon NDP SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye PC VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry PC WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy St. Johns NDP WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River NDP 180

LEGISLATIVEASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEEON LAW AMENDMENTS Monday, June 22,1992

nME-7p.m. Ron Schuler, Manitoba Inter-Cultural Council LOCATION -Winnipeg, Manitoba Mary Richard, Manitoba Association for Native CHAIRPERSON -Mr. JackPenner (Emerson) Languages Murray Trachtenberg,The League for Human ATTENDANCE- 11 -QUORUM- 6 Rights B'nai Brith Canada Members of the Committee present: Norma Walker, TheCongress of Black Women Hon. Messrs. Ducharme, Ernst,McCrae , Hon. Mrs. Mitchelson Art Miki, Private Citizen Messrs. Chomiak, Ms. Friesen, Messrs. Mohinder Singh Dhillon, Private Citizen Gaudry, Lamoureux, McAlpine, Orchard, Amar Singh Dhalliwal, Punjabi Seniors Penner Association *Substitutions: WRITTENSUBMISSI ONS: Ms. Cerilli for Mr. Chomiak {2006) Catherine Collins, President, McDermot­ Mr. Santos for Ms. Friesen (2006) SherbrookResidents Association APPEARING: MATTERS UNDER DISCUSSION: Steve Ashton, MLA for Thompson Bill 78-The City of Winnipeg AmendmentAct (3) Marianne Cerilli, MLA for Radisson Bill 98-The Manitoba Multiculturalism Act WITNESSES: *** Bill 78-The City of Winnipeg AmendmentAct (3) LornaCramer, Private Citizen Mr.Chairpers on: Will the standing committee on David Cramer, Private Citizen Law Amendments pleasecome to order. Max Saper, Private Citizen This evening the committee will be resuming consideration of Bill 78, The City of Winnipeg Bill 98-The Manitoba MulticulturalismAct Amendment Act (3), and will also be considering Bill Sidney Green, The Manitoba Progressive 98,The Manitoba Multiculturalism Act. What is the Party will of the committee? Do you want to continue Bat Kapoor, Private Citizen hearing and finish the hearings on Bill 78, The City Paul Kammerloch, Private Citizen of Winnipeg Amendment Act, and then move into Multiculturalism? Okay. Wade Williams, National Black Coalition of Canada There are also a number of other bills, outstanding Bills 86,87, 93 and 97 that could be Lena Anderson, Immigrant Womens' considered after we hear the Multiculturalism Act. Association of Manitoba What is the will ofthe committee? Should we make Arnold Eddy, Private Citizen that decision when we get there? Osmond Anderson, Manitoba Multi-Cultural An Honourable Member: Let us hear all the Resources Centre delegationsfirst. Done Tole, Manitoba Association for the Promotion of Ancestral Languages Mr. Chairperson: Okay. There are presenters on those bills, if we wish to hear them-86, 87, 93 and ljaz Oamar, Private Citizen 97. If we wish to hear them, then we should notify Joseph Reza Fanai, Private Citizen the presenters, that they might be heardtonight. 181 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

committee? It appears that we have 12 presenters It has been suggestedthat if the amendment gets on Bill 78, and about 30 presenters on Bill 98, and passed, our community councillors will beperm itted it would appear to me that by the time we finish the to make representations at the Board ofAdjustment hearings of those two bills, it might be well into the and during the appeal. I would like to pointout that morning. By the timethe consideration ofclause by our community councillorswould not be required to clause on both bills is finished, we will have had an attend these meetings. Their presence is optional extensive day. So ifthat is the will of the committee, and would only come about at their discretion. we will then hear those bills at the next sittingof the Should they choose to attend, they would not be committee. Is it agreed? Agreed. entitled to vote or adjudicate. Therefore, any Did the committee wish to indicate which bill we recommendations put forth by our councillors are want to consider? Do we want to continuewith Bill not binding in any way whatsoever. 78? Is that agreed? Agreed. We will then By removing theapplication procedures and the continue. appeal procedures from community committees, There are fivewritten submissions on Bill 98 that our councillors' formal responsibilities to the have been received. What is the will of the electorate are removed. Their linkages to the committee? Should we distribute them and accept people, the electors, are attenuated. In effect, our them as distributed and record them in committee councillors are officially relieved of their Hansard? Agreed. responsibilities, and the electors are left with no formal representation. The councillors would lose Could we hear from councillor Bill Clement? Is their accountabilityto theelectors. How then would councillor Bill Clem ent, city councillor for the community be provided with an officialforum for Charleswood here? He is not here. voicing to its councillors,those who have a vested Councillor Greg Selinger, city councillor for interest in the community and are accountableto us, Tache,is he here? Not here. our concerns, eithercollectively or on an individual Mrs. LornaCramer. Is Mrs. Lorna Cramer here? basis? This is not the kind of representation that our Bill 78-The City of Winnipeg community wants. This is not why we went outto Amendment Act (3) vote. We went out to vote so that our councillors Mrs.Lorna Cramer(Private Citizen) : Yes, I am. would make binding decisions which represent the people who electedthem. Mr. Chairperson: Would you come forward, please? Have you a presentation for distribution? Ifthe amendment gets passed, it wouldpave the way for the introduction of unsuitable enterprises Mrs. Cramer: I have made it av ailable to the into our neighbourhood. I refer to video arcades, secretary. Would you let me know when you want massage parlours, and otherest ablishments of this me to make my statement? kind that are generally unwanted in most residences Mr. Chairperson: Could you come a bit closer? and neighbourhoods. You may proceed. If the amendment gets passed, the City of Mrs.Cramer: All right. Winnipeg could virtually do whatever it choosesto Mr.Chairperson: Okay, you may proceed. do with little regard for the welfare of the people and the communities. * (1910) This is not our idea of democracy. These issues Mrs.Cramer: This is in connectionwith Bill 78, The stand in the way of our accepting the amendment. City of Winnipeg Amendment Act (3), Section We have no choice but to remain in opposition. I 574(2). The interpretation of this section per remind this assembly of people that we have placed explanatory notes to Bill 78, page 6, Part 20, our trust in the hands of our legislators who create Planning and Development, I quote: The existing laws, but we do not need laws that will be used like definition of committee of council is amended to blunt instruments against the people. state that variance and conditional use appeals cannot be heard by community committee. Thank you for listening to me. My statement is as follows. I oppose the Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mrs. Cramer. Are amendment for thefollowing reasons. there any questions of Mrs.Cramer? If not, we will June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 182

proceed to the next presenter, Mr. David Cramer, Headingley, when they seceded from theirdemise private citizen. in the City ofWinnipeg. Mr. Cramer, have you a presentation to Throughout the years, when theCity ofWinnipeg distribute? amalgamated and we had resident advisers, I was Mr. David Cramer (Private Citizen): No, nothing one of the first advisers to be elected in West to distribute, I merely want to corroborate what my Kildonan. I served as aresident adviser for closeto wife has said. I will read a shortstate ment that more 20 years, so I am not strange to the workingsof City or less repeatswhat she said. Council, councillors, committees, amendment committees and appeal committees and so on. Mr.Chairperson : Would you proceed, please? That is why I felt that I did not have to make a written Mr.Cramer: I wish to say that I am opposed to the presentation, because if I did, I would have one12 6 amendment of Bill 78 that will disallow the pages long. So actually, I am going to try and keep community councillors from hearing appeals of my remarks as brief as possible, but I may get conditional uses and variances, as this will carried away because I am noted for that. obviously eliminate their power to effectively I would like to startout by saying,the reasonI am represent the interests of their constituents. Thank here and some other people are not is because I you. had a personal experience within thelast year in the Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. city of Winnipeg with a decision made by the Cramer. community committee,which went downtownto an The next person that the committeewould call is appeal committee. The community committee was Dena Sonley. Is Ms. Sonley here? She is not here. in favour of the presentation which I made, I was in opposition to the establishment of an amusement Is Michael Sawka here? Michael Sawka? Not parlour inWest Kildonan, which we had never had here. from the days of West Kildonan andalso up untilthis Mr. and Mrs. Robert Peterson. Are Mr. and Mrs. point in time in the city of Winnipeg. Robert Peterson here? Would you come forward, When it went to the appeal committee please, if you are here? Not here. Mrs. Antonia downtown-it was denied. The decision was Engen here? Not here. Ms. Lori Janower? Is Ms. reversed. This reversal of this decision was Janower here? Not here. Mr. Max Saper here? absolutely shocking, because here we have a Mr. Saper, have you a presentation to distribute community committee, councillors, resident to the committee? advisers and dozens of people appear before Mr. Max Saper (Private Citizen): No, I have not, community committee and voice an objection to a Mr. Chairperson. certain change, a certain variance, a certain conditional use that affected our community. We Mr. Chairperson: Would you proceed please with convinced the councillors that that particular your presentation. conditional use or variance should be denied and Mr. Saper: With your permission and the the majority of councillors agreed, and it was denied. committee's indulgence, I beg to make my However, when it went downtown, the presentation orally. representation ofour councillors was void. The way Mr. Chairperson: Okay. Proceed. the appeal committeewas set up, if most of you do Mr. Saper: Firstly, I would like to introduce myself not know or if they do know, is the fact that no to the committee. My name is Max Saper. I live at councillors from the community committee can sit 159 Gilia Drive in West Klldonan. I have lived there on that appeal committee, nor could they appear by for the past 28 years. I moved in there when the city it. of Winnipeg was the city of Winnipeg and not metro Now, when we first made our appeal to the Winnipeg and West Kildonan was a city by itself. community committee, besides myself and about A lot of people like myself moved into that area 500 signatures and several other persons who because we wanted to move into a city of our own, appeared as a delegation at that time, we also had like some of you have moved into Charleswood, St. the Seven Oaks School Division appear, the Vital, East Kildonan and even, in recent times, superintendent with about threeschool trustees and 1 83 LEGISLATIVEASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

the chairman of the Seven Oaks School Board No. they fast forwarded it for three minutes, and the 10. Theyvehemently opposedthe establishment of committee just took their time until it was all over, this amusement parlour in our community and rightly which was just a matter of a few minutes and the so. decision was made. Now, when it went to the appeal committee You know, it smacks to me of payoffand payback. downtown, there is no way that I couldfores ee, with This is what we have to get out of our community the presentation of the Seven Oaks School committees, because when councillors from Division-which incidentally is a democratically different communities have to sit in judgment upon elected body,the same as the councillors, and they a decision of a certaincommuni ty committee, ifthey are responsibleto the city of Winnipeg. Theschool cannot uphold the majority decision of that board represents over 15,000 families, over ,500 9 community committee, then there is something children that go to the Seven Oaks School Division wrong in the state of Denmark. I am not going to which includes three high schools, and yet the expand on that, but this is the kind of community appeal committee absolutely ignored this kind of government that we have today, and I hope that presentation. I think, in my opinion, that is not democracy in action. Those people who represent maybe in the next five or six months this situation the school board are just as important, if not more will get a turnaround. important, than the councillors in this particular At the present time, as you know, we now have a instance, because this was a situation that was Board of Adjustment, where the appeals for affectingthe children in ourcomm unity. conditional uses and for variances go to the Board As far as I am concerned,I have no children going of Adjustment and then a decision of the Board of into the school division and I have no interest in Adjustment is appealed to the community amusement parlours,for or against them. To me it committee, correct? I thinkso. All right. Now,this was the kind of thing that we wanted to keep our particular committee here wants to change a small community void of, because I pointed out several partof that particular process. TheCity ofWinnipeg times-and most of you people know that the is also aware that you want to change a small part, establishment ofamusemen t parlours proved Itself so on January 6, the City of Winnipeg had a on north PortageAve nue, whether it is goodfor the discussion on the changethat this committeewants community or bad for the community. I do not have to make and the make-up of the appeal committee. to recall what happened to north Portage Avenue. The original motion that came from the City of Itall startsfrom one amusement parlour, and that is Winnipeg was recommendation that the appeal theway that cancergrows. committee of thecommu nity committeeto consist of * (1920) the planning committee and the committee of I did not appear at the appeal committee, community service as well as the Executive Policy incidentally, because I went off for my winter Committee. Now, there was an amendment made holiday, and I thought,well, after reading the school at that particular meetingthat theappeal committee board presentation and after 20 people were going should be changed to read: The recommendation to appear at this committee, how could the appeal issue No. 2-and this I am reading right out of the comm ittee possibly reverse this kind of minutes of the City Council meeting of that particular presentation? It was absolutely amazing, and the time-replacing the words with "respective reportsthat I got from that particular meetingthat the community committee.• committee that was sitting as the appeal committee were various councillorsfrom differentcomm unities In other words, the City Council decided that if throughout the city. They themselves had no there is going to be an appeal to the community knowledge of what our community is consisted of, committeeit should be the community committee as how It was put together, and why we people live a whole, and that was passed by a vote of 17 to 10. there and why we want to live in a certain manner. Therefore, your citycommuni ty committee, whether Maybe in their own communities they have an idea, it beWest Kildonan or Charleswood or City Centre­ but not in West Kildonan, and they absolutely Fort Rouge, they will have the final say of what the ignored thepresentation of the Seven Oaks School variances or what the conditional uses should be in Division. I presented a video for 28 minutes and the community that it affects. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVEASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 184

To give you an example, after we lost our case, one time: governmentforthepeople, by the people, because we did lose it-you know you win the war of the people. and you lose the battle, or vice-versa, you win the This is what we have to get back to. This is battle, you lose the war. Subsequent to that somethingthat we have driftedaway from in the last decision, several applications were made for several years in all levels of government. This is amusement parlours in different areas of the city, in something we have to get back to. So when it differentcomm unities. Coincidentally, they were all comes to the appeal, at thebottom of page 14, I want turned down, and some of these community to draw this to your attention again: "The approval committees where these applications were turned of a conditional use or an order of variance by the down were in the communities that the appeal committee of council under clause 3(b) may be committee members were in who voted that it is all appealed to the committeeof council designated by right for us to have amusement parlours, but it is not by-law." okay for us to have them in my area. That is what happened. Now that committee of council must be stroked out and in there must be substituted, thecommun ity So they went from Notre Dame and they went into committee. They are the people who are St. Vital and they went into Osborne Village, as responsible to us. We electthem, andif thecitizens recently in Osborne Village as within the last couple of a certaincomm unity feel strongly abouta certain of weeks, and every one ofthese applications was issue, then they should belistening to them. It is the turned down. In each one of these community old story. If you say to a politician, I do not like the committees there was at least one memberof the decision you made, you know what he tells you-1 appeal committee that reversed our decision that have heard it more than once; there are some was sitting at that time. So it is like I say, it is pay people sittingaround here that have told It to me: If offand pay up and pay back. This is exactlythe way you do not like it, you know what you can do. Do the community committees sit today, and we have not vote me in next time, vote me out. There are got to get rid of that situation. people sitting in this audience who gave me that Now when we come to the amendment that you answer, but on a different matter. want to make, you specifically state-and I might Ladies and gentlemen, this is my presentation to read this on your Section 4(2)57 so and so, page 13. you tonight. I would strongly urge you to consider At the bottom it says ••community council' means my presentation to you becauseif this situation ends executive policy committee,a standing committee, up in the manner in which you people are proposing or a community committee, designated under the it, it is going to be nothing but grief all over again. by-law passed under this Part." The idea of this kind of a change in the bill is Then we go over to the next page, on page 14 at supposed to improve matters, and I thinkthrough the very top; this is the gist of it: Meaning of experience-now when I say experience, I do not •committee of council"-the •committee of council" mean experience of just becauseit botheredme last means executive policy committee or a standing year, because it is 20 years of experience sitting in committee designated for the purpose of those council as a resident advisor and listening to these subsections designated by law, passed under this appeals of different variances and different act. conditional uses so that thepeople are able to look This is what I do not like about this particular afterthe good and welfare of their own community. amendment. That should be changed, that the Thank you very much. committee of council should specifically state: the Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Saper. Would community committee as a whole. That is the final you entertain some questions? voice of appeal because those are the people that we as citizens of this city elect to represent us. They Mr.Saper: I will answer any questionsyou like, Mr. are the people who are responsible to us. They Chairperson. should have the responsibility to respond to the Mr. Dave Chomlak (Klldonan): Thank you, Mr. wishes of the people who live in the community, and Saper. I think you quite eloquently put a lot of the if we can show them that we want certain things to concernsthat have beenraised. Thisafte rnoonwe happenand we do not want other things to happen, had hearings on this matter, and we had a Seven then this is what I call what a great statesman said Oaks trustee here who made some of the same 185 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

points again. We had a city councillor here who have said, that can be done. So that is the only made some of thesame points. We had at least six reason we need recognition of thechair. or seven representative groups of committees that Mr. Chomlak: I think Mr. Saper answered the made the same points that you are making, and I question. I would assume you may want to think you summed it up well. I can indicate, as I complete your answer that you wan�ell, I will let have indicated before to the minister, I have had you complete it. I will let you say it in your own over 140 lettersback to me from the community that words. you are a resident in, and that I have the pleasure to represent, opposing this particular amendment Mr. Saper: Mr. Chairperson, in reply to Mr. based on the points you made, and I just want to Chomiak's question I would like to say this: In my sum them up. experience over the years in the workings of City Basically the points we heard over and over Council I do not take anything to answer a question again, and I want to see if you agree with me yesterdaythat is going to be decided tomorrow. As basically when I sum it up, is that, firstly,this change far as I am concerned, if you leave the status quo will take away from the accountability. We will no remain this year, it is forever. longer feel that our councillors are accountable on Thechange is goingto be taking place now. You those decisions. Secondly, a downtown body or a people are dealing with it now. Then Jet us have a planning bodyis not representative and is not aware proper decision now, because if we accept the of the local concerns,the community concernsthat status quo now we may never ever get another only a councillorgenerally is aware of. Would that sitting like this again. I do notknow who is going to be a fair representation, because that is my runthis committee next year or what government is summation of what I basically heard this afternoon going to run this committee next year, but we have and what 1- an opportunity now. You peoplesitting around this • (1930) table have an opportunity to respond to thecitizens ofthis city, to respondto thecitizens of a community Mr. Saper: Yes, that is correct. That is absolutely that have suffered becauseof theinadequacy of the correct, becausethat is the kind of responsibility we way the appeals are handled at thepresent time. expect from our councillors and that is the kind of responsibilitywe want from our councillors. I will recognizethe fact thatwe nowhave a Board of Adjustment. The Board of Adjustment up to this Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Chairperson, one of the really point in time has been working verywell, but if you interesting suggestions that came through this are going to make the change, you are going to afternoonwas from an individual who works for city planning and he knows aboutsome of thedifficulties make a change because you must realize that a in dealing with the city, and heindica ted-andhe also change is necessary. assists people in taking matters to City Council-a I am not going to delve into the workings of the valid middle ground ifthe gov ernment wishes to put Board of Adjustment at the present time because this through is to let it go. Try it again for another none of them are members-well, maybe one of year. Let the present system stay. Let the them might be a member of our community community committee stay, see how it works and committee. We get back to the same old story re-examine it in anotheryear or anothertwo years. again. We have people involved making decisions If the government is proceeding, would you accept that do not live around my house and do not shop that as a compromise? in my shopping centre and do not go to my Mr.Saper: No, I would not, sir. I would not accept SuperValu or my Safeway store, so they do not that. know what is going on. So therefore you have an opportunity now to make the councillorsresponsible Mr. Chairperson: Let me just inte�ect here for a to the voters andto the citizens of theircommuni ty. wee minute. People that arepr esenting here do not know that unless you are recognized by the Mr.Chalrperson: Thankyou, Mr. Saper. The next chairperson your mike does not come on and your presenter is Mr. Robin Weins. Mr. Weins, would comments are not recorded. So we want to record you come forward, please. Is Mr. Weins here? Not everything you say for posterity, that if politicians a here. The next presenter is Mr. Richard Chartier. Is thousand years from now want to read what you Richard here? Not here. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 186

That concludes the list of presenters for Bill 78. I I considerthe same to be true for everyone who thankall the presenters for having appeared before comes to this country, whether it be 1 00 years ago the committee. I thank thecommittee membersfor or one year ago, that once they become a citizen of hearing the presenters. Canada, they are a full Canadian, and that theyare not dealt with on the basis that theyare being in any Bill 98-The Manitoba way regarded by the rest of us as somebody who Multiculturalism Act we will deal with kindly becausethey are minorities. I do not wish to be dealt with kindly because I am a Mr.Chairperson : I will now ask that we move to Bill 98 for consideration of presentations to The member of a so-calledmi nority; I wish to dealt with Manitoba Multiculturalism Act. Thefirst presenteris with integrity because I am a citizenof this country. Mr. Sydney Green of The Manitoba Progressive In 1966, Mr. Chairperson and members of the Party. Is Mr. Green here? Yes, he is. Mr. Green, committee-and even before 1966, but I think that I have you a presentation to distribute? will deal with 1966-the City of Winnipeg had a Mr. Sidney Green (The Manitoba Progressive mayor of Ukrainian origin, who was elected from Party): No, I have not, Mr. Chairperson, but as every part of the city regardless ofthe eth nic flavour indicated, I believe in two or three days you will have of the section of the city that elected him. He was one. elected without any legislation saying that we have to make the Ukrainians a target group who have Thank you. Would you proceed Mr. Chairperson: thus far been unrepresented in mayoralty status in then, Mr. Green. thecity of Winnipeg, and in time, through legislation, Mr. Green: Mr. Chairperson and members of this that we saw that one of them was elected. committee, I am here because I and the partythat I Indeed, it would have been the biggest insult to represent feel very strongly about this legislation Steve Juba, whom I know very well, if It was and the path that it leads to. suggested that he was givensome type of clear path I think it is of some value for me to indicate my because he was of Ukrainian origin, and it was their own background. My parents lived in Russia until turn because they were unrepresented as mayors 1921, when they left that country in the midstof the from the time that Winnipeg became a city in about civil war following the revolution. They are both 1870 until the present time. It could be slightly Jewish; I am Jewish. I speak Yiddish. Je parle before 1870. franc;ais. I speak English. lch kann Deutsch In 1966, the public of the province of Manitoba, sprechen. through everyarea, elected a Premier who was of I am concernedthat there are steps being taken German origin, three cabinet ministers of Jewish to formalize or institutionalize a minority status on origin, a cabinet minister of Polish origin, a cabinet myself as a second generation Canadian and all minister of Ukrainian origin, a cabinet minister of people who cometo this country and do not belong French origin. I cannot recall them all, butI believe to one of the two ethnic minorities which form the that there were even some Anglo-Saxons basis for the official languages, namely the English represented as well, that the public of Manitoba and the French. I wish to emphasize that no decided that they would not discriminate against legislation that I know of, Canadian or provincial, Anglo-Saxons, and they too were represented in the confersany status on people because of their ethnic cabinet. background, other than Section 96 of the Indian Act, which says that the federal government will be * (1 940) responsible for Indians and reserve lands. By the way, the public of Manitoba-whom I note Other than that, to my knowledge, every citizen of that Frances Russell has called bigoted because Canada is deemed to be a full Canadian and is not they opposed a stupid piece of legislation brought deemed to be or looked upon as a minority. I, in forward by the New Democratic Party in 1981-had particular, do not wish to be regarded as a minority this basic, all-embracing attitude without a single group, do not wish to be dealt with as a minority piece of legislation which suggested that our group, because I considermyself the equal of every province must deal with people and treat themfairly othercitizen in this country. on the basis of their ethnicbackgr ound. 187 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

I said earlier, there is no legislation except what in the medical school. Furthermore, may I say that the province tried to enact unsuccessfully in 1981 , culture and the manner in which ethnic values are which gives any dominance at law to people of dealtwith are not something whichcan or should be Anglo-Saxon backgrounds or people of French regulated by thesta te. As a matter offact, to coin a backgrounds. phrase, the state should stay out of the ethnic What is given status in federal and provincial background of its citizens and let them evolve as legislation is the French and English language, but they will, and evolvethey will withoutany legislation, we do not regard, or at least I have not regarded the withoutany legislation whatsoever. French language as being other than a language of When I grew up in the '40sand in the '50sthere Canadians. I do not regard it to be the language of were strongJewish organizations, notone, many. I the Francophones. do not know which one you are going to deal with Comme je parle franqals, je ne parle pas une and designate as the Jewish community. There langue qui est Ia propriete d'un autre groupe were strong Ukrainian organizations, not one, but ethnique. Je parle Ia langue qui est moi-meme. several. There were Greek organizations, there were Polish organizations, there were Russian [Translation] organizations, there were German organizations, Since I speak French, I do not speak a language and still are. These have grown and flourished not which is the property of another ethnic group. I because of, but in spite of the fact that the speak the language which is me. government had a hands-off policy with respect to them,and they were recognized as normal features [English] of our society. H it is not that way, if it is not the language of all of us, if it Is the language of the Francophone,then When you pass a bill that says that we are going I say it should not be an official language because I to recognize them, then, as Shakespeare said, do not believe that any language is a Canadian methinks the lady doth protest too much. What is language because it happens to be the property of the purpose of this legislation, and what will the an ethnicgroup. result of the legislation be? I have noted of late, and I note in this piece of H you are going to say thatour society is divided, legislation, that more and more we are and I noticethat you also protest thatphrase , that is institutionalizing the suggestion that people in our unified, if you will have It, by groups of ethnic society should be dealt with not as individuals but communities, then do youpropose to identify these as members of groups of ethniccomm unities,and I ethnic communities? You propose to give grantsto say, Mr. Chairperson and members of this them? Whom will you choose? There is no ethnic committee,that this Is a mostdangerous and almost community that has a formal structure which elects inevitable path,not to reducing racism in our society, representatives as such. What you will be doing is but increasing racism in our society. trying to do what thecomm unities themselveshave not done. You will be trying to designate which are I say that I am very proud of my ethnic the ethnic communities, who are their background. I have absolutely no problem with representatives, and what Is oneof the salient facts being recognized as a Jewish citizen of Canada. I about ethnic communities is that the organizations do not wish to be recognized by the government as are maintained-and this is right, I am not objecting somebodywho will be dealt with as a member of the to it-by people who are more affluent and Jewish community, not that I am not a citizen of prominent. Jewish origin who participates in the community, but I wish to be treatedas a full Manitoban and not with * (1 950) anythingthat specifies me as a memberof an ethnic The average person of any ethnic origin does not community. have a great deal to do with the leadership in these There is good reason for this, Mr. Chairperson. communities, and some of them have no We have had this type of treatment in the past. In involvement in them. I am notsaying that is good the late '30s there was a program in the medical or bad. I am saying that when this province deals school which said that Ukrainians and Jews will with someone, they should deal with him as a have quotas on the number of people they can have Manitoban. They should not deal with him as a June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 188

group, and they should stay completely out of any lowest rung of every social and economic index of involvement in the development, progress or betterment that we use to class individuals. So why strength of the community organizations, because are we doing this? What is the reason for the thatis something which theorganizations and which Province of Manitoba suddenly to start dealing with the communities must do for themselves. people on the basis of their ethnic origin? Unless, Mr. Chairperson, you regard this as in Mr. Chairperson, I suggestthat one of thereasons some way being negative towards the existence of is that we are bringing this policy into consistent these communities. I assure you that I am very juxtaposition with that policy which Is positive to the existence of the organizations and euphemisticallyreferred to as affirmativeaction and have seen them flourish and participated in them which is really a position which institutionalizes without any government involvement whatsoever. racist treatment of individuals, so that we get in The more the government gets involved the more Albertaan advertisementfor the RCMP that white they will generate what they supposedly are trying males need not apply. Now, I do not say that white to avoid. males should be granted a preference, nor do I I note, Madam Minister, that one of the things that agree that they should be discriminated against you talk about is a committee of 12 and not more because they happen to be white males. In this than 18 members, representative, I suppose, of the regard, I believe the same should be true of black various multicultural organizations or groups in our males and black females, and Oriental males and society. Now you immediately will create a problem Oriental females. for yourself, because it is not hard to count to even I am now reading from how your Human Rights 18 and not include everybody. We will deal with Commission grades people who are applying for ethnic French, Scottish, Irish, German, Polish, jobs. They grade them on experience, leadership, Ukrainian, Hungarian, Italian, Serbian, Croatian, attitude, organization, and one could have the Sikh, Hindu, Chinese, Malaysian, Japanese, highest marks in this area and then get zero for Africans of various countries, Dutch, American, affirmative action because he is a white male and Belgian. We are well over 18, andif you are talking lose the opportunity based solely on his ethnic about a secretariat-! do not have Anglo-Saxon in origin. That is, whatever you want to think about it, there, English-andone group feels that they are not represented, or two groups or threegroups, are you racist. That is where thepolicy goes. not creating a problem for yourself? If you think I am exaggerating, Mr. Chairperson, When you are talkingabout grants, how do you then I will tell you that I go to Australia everyyear. decide which ethnic organization will get a grant? I Before I tell you about the advertisement, I suggest am not talking about whether it Is Ukrainian or to you that this policy-because the Province of Polish. I am talking about which Ukrainian Manitoba has so many classifications, you organization or which Polish organization or which legislators think and have thought that you could Greek organization, and why? Have the categorize people on the basis ofhow theyachieve organizations not flourished? Have they not been sexual satisfaction. It is impossible for any genius of themselves reflective of our society so that they to do it, because the methods of obtaining sexual do not have to berecreated so as to be reflective of satisfaction are infinite and undefinable. But the our society? legislators of the Province of Manitoba are able to define it. They say there are males, females, We do not need legislation to say that it is a homosexuals, and lesbians. multicultural society from the time of its original population, whoeverthat may be. Are you sure that Theyhave policiesbased on that. If you took your the NorthAmerican Indian is the original population affirmative action policy to its conclusion, its logical of North America? Are you positive ? Ifyou are, you conclusion, you would run around to determine how knowmore than the anthropologists know. I regard many homosexuals there are. You would find out the Indian citizen of our society in the same way as perhaps-1 do not know what you would find out, I regard every other citizen of our society, and the because I never tried to determine from another designation of the Indian as special in the British individual what his or her sexual orientation is-but NorthAmerica Act is largely responsiblefor the fact you may find out that homosexuals are 1 0 percent that the Indian citizen has been degraded to the of thepopulat ion. 189 LEGISLATIVEASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

Then you will look around your employment force, is a NorthAmerican pattern,and I see nothing wrong and you will say: How many of you are with that. I think that most people in my group, that homosexuals? You will find out that there are 2 you would classify as a group, have adopted North percent. So then you will say, the homosexual&­ American standardsand yet retain a strongidentity and I am using your language-are to their culture. They do so withoutany assistance underrepresented in thework force. They are 10 from the state, and to get assistance from the state percent of the population and 2 percent of the good would be a danger, and I use in this respect the jobs or the jobs. Therefore, we have to have an same argument that I use with regard to separate affirmative action policy for homosexuals to bring schools. them up to the 10 percent of the population. Once an ethnic group depends for its existence I am being smiled at like this exaggeration. In on public funding, inevitably thestate will starttelling Australia, an ad for a government-funded social that ethnic group what they must do in order to serviceagency advertisedfor an aboriginal lesbian obtain that public funding. You will create racism of to fill the job. That was advertised, and I really have the nature that is now being stirred up in eastern no objection to, nor feel any antipathy to, a person Europe if you institutionalize rather than let ethnic who is aboriginal and happens to be what is backgrounds in oursoci ety take their normal course, commonly referred to as a lesbian, but I do notsee because we have seen the result of their normal that categorization shouldgive job preferenceover course. another. Yourbil l appearsto say that it will not, but thenit says, speaking out of both sides of its mouth By the way, I have a problem-( indicated there that it will, because it says the multicultural policy would be a personal problem-when you start will give equal access to opportunities. To whom? dealing with the target groups, what target group To individuals or to groups? does Jewish-Chinese fall into? Or will you make up a separate one? I have three grandchildren who If youare going to deal with groupsand deal with are in that group, and I wonder what their job myseH as a member of a group, you have two opportunities will be or what target group they will problems: If somebody is underrepresented in the belong to if they are going to be dealt with on the work force, then Ipso facto, it is an inescapable corollary that somebody is overrepresented in the basis of groups. work force;and if you are goingto saythat we are I have no problem with this country progressing going to undo this imbalance then you have to go as it has. As a matter of fact, I have often extolled from the underrepresented and undo some of the the fact that we in Canada, and to a smaller extent overrepresented. So, ifyou have peoplewho are a in the UnitedStates, but we in Canada particularly, group-and you deal with groups-who are 1.5 because of the Quebec situation, have not had a percent of thepopulation and have 1 0 percent of the fetish about ethnic nationalism. We do not regard work force, is it not logical, will you not say, if you our nationalism as being an English nation or a proceed with this policy, that that group is French nation or a German nation or a Russian overrepresented, we have to stop hiring those nation. We regard our nationalism as being a people, and starthiring the other? Canadian nation, being composed of all kinds of * (2000) people from different lands who come here and retain whatever of their background is valuable to By the way, Madam Minister, this may sound them and become part of Canada. harsh, but that is exactly what Hitler said. Exactly. That was his exact position on this question as I submit to you that this kind of legislation is a between Germans and one of the groups that you backward and not a forward step, that the want to designate as the minority ethnic groups in backgrounds ofour people are best left to the people our society. themselves and that the state should stay out of it. Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. Madam Minister, Mr. Chairperson, it is my suggestion to you that the state should stay out of Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Green. Are the ethnic backgrounds of its people. People who there questionsof Mr. Green? If not, then thankyou wish, and there are many, to preserve their ethnic again for your presentation, Mr. Green. The culture will do so, andmany will become part of what committee calls Joe Glasgow. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 190

Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Yes, I request specifically concern Canada; to provide members to make a committee change. Is there leave for with a national forum in civic, social and economic that? matters; to foster among Indo-Canadians and Mr. Chairperson: Yes. Is there leave for others an understanding, appreciation, retention committee change? Leave granted. Proceed. I and security of theheritages of the peoplesfrom the am sorry, you are goingto have to get a committee Indian subcontinent, and thus to play a role in the member to move the changes. You are not a promotion of Canadian multiculturalism; to be committee member and therefore-Mr.Chomiak is a involved with the rest of the Canadian societyin the committee member. He couldmove the- promotion of global humanitarian and multicultural endeavoursof our country; to promote goodwill and CommitteeSubstitutions positive relationships among the people of Canada and of India; and finally to encourage the Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): I, for Law establishment of centres and services to meet the Amendments, move Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) for needs and aspirations of Indo-Canadians in the Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) and Broadway(Mr. Santos) spirit ofrespect and appreciation of differences. for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen). I, sir, as an individual and in my capacity, that of Mr. Chairperson: Radisson for Kildonan and the president of the National Indo-Canadian Broadway for Wolseley. Are we agreed? Agreed Council, stand before you to indicate that we fully and so ordered. support the act and compliment the honourable *** minister for introducing such a perfect instrument. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Committee calls Joe Glasgow. Joe Glasgow, not here. Mr. Bal Kapoor? Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Kapoor. Are Committeecalls Mr. Kapoor. Mr. Kapoor, have you there any questions of Mr. Kapoor? presentation for distribution? Ms. Cerllll: Thank you, Mr. Kapoor, for your Mr. Bal Kapoor (Private Citizen): Yes. presentation. Was your presentation- Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Kapoor, would you please Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Cerilli, could you please pull proceed? up your mike a wee bit closer so we can hear you? Mr. Kapoor: Mr. Chairperson, the honourable Thank you. Minister responsible for Multiculturalism (Mrs. Ms. Cerllll: Just to clarify, you are here Mitchelson), the honourable members of the representing the group the Indo-Canadian committee, I wish to thank you for allowing me this organization? opportunityto appear before you today and express Mr.Kapoor : That is correct. my viewsand commentson the proposed Manitoba Multiculturalism Act. I speak on my behalf as a Ms. Cerllll: And the brief was agreed upon by the concerned Manitoban and in my capacity as the entireorganization? president of the National Indo-Canadian Council, * (2010) Manitoba Chapter. Mr.Kapoor : That is correct. I have reviewed the proposed act and read the Ms. Cerllll: You say that the act will be the remarks made by the honourable minister in second foundation stoneof a veryhealthy, prosperous and reading. In my respectfulopinion, the proposed act united Canada. Can you clarify for me which will be the foundation stone of a very healthy, sections of the legislation you feel are going to do prosperous and united Canada. that and why? If the provisions of the proposed act are fairly and Mr. Kapoor: I read theproposed act in full andall properly implemented and followed, we feel we will the provisions of the act lead to that very one part. be following the path leading to a perfect and very If you want me to point out a specific provision of enlightened society. that act, I would have to read the act and speak to This act meets with the objectives of our you, but I am talking about the act as a whole and association, which if I may briefly relate are: to in general. I see nothing wrong with it. When we encourageand assist Indo-Canadians to participate talk about multiculturalism, in my respectfulopinion, fully in Canadian societyand to address mattersthat this is an instrumentwhich leads to that very part. 191 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Just one I am a past president of the German-Canadian question, Mr. Kapoor. When you say that in Congress. I am appearing here-1 would like to principle you supportthe act, andI believe all three clarify that-as a private citizen, however my political partiesin side the Chamber support the act background is with the German-Canadian in principle, is it safe to say then that like some community In Manitoba as a past president of the concernsthat we might have with certainaspects or German-Canadian Congress, which is an umbrella certain clauses in the actthat might cause us some organization for Manitobans of German-speaking concern, your organization, when you say you heritage in Manitoba of which there are support the act, you are not necessarily talking approximately 192,000. aboutevery clause, that you are referring to the act What I would like to say is, firstly,after listening to as a whole, that in fact there are some things, no Mr. Green who is also a lawyer as I am, I guessthe doubt, that you might want to see in or out of the act? old saying that you get 10 lawyers in a room and ask Mr.Kapo or: I have not really paid much attention for an opinion, you will get 10 different opinions. I to that particular aspectof your question, but I guess think that is very valid, becauseI read the same act perhaps the only thing that I may have any concern he did, but I did not interpret it or understand it the about is perhaps of a granting of the funds and who way he did. Rather than categorizing Manitobans does the granting. into different ethnic groups, I think the Mr. Lamoureux: I guess that is one of the things language-and one thing that I strongly support-is which we have pointed out. As an example, if we very clear and saying exactly the opposite. were to take out theGrants Advisory Council, is that Where I support it strongly and I applaud the something that you would support or you would minister for the wording ofthe act is it makes it very have ck to your association with, or to get ba clear that, firstly, we are all Manitobans. I am somethingof thatnature? reading from the preamble where it says: "AND Mr. Kapoor: I will prefer to get back and then, if WHEREAS the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba necessary, come back and speak to thatmatter for believes that Manitoba's multicultural societyis not you. a collection of many separate societies, divided by Mr.Lamoureux : Thank you. language and culture, but is a single society united by shared Jaws, values, aspirations and Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. responsibilities ..••" Kapoor. Being involved also on the pro-Canada Thecommittee callsnext Paul Kammerloch. Mr. committee, and in consultationswith our community Kammerloch, would you come forward please? and providing a brief on the constitutional Have you a written presentationfor distribution? amendments, that is verymuch the position of the Mr.Paul Kammerloch(Private Citizen): No, I do German-Canadian Congress, that when we talk not, Mr. Chairperson. about multiculturalism we are not talking about Mr.Chairperson : Would you proceed, please? dividing Canadians or Manitobans into different Mr. Kammerloch: Mr. Chairperson, members of ethnic groups. What we are talkingabout is defining the committee, I would like to thank you for this our society. opportunity to make some comments on the I think despite what Mr. Green indicated, in our proposedmulticultural act. Constitution we do talk about the English majority, I should just tell you a little bit about my the French majority. We do talk about founding background. I was listening to Mr. Green's nations, and what I feel is very special and presentation earlier with interest. I am here as a remarkable about this legislation is we are having a private citizen, however my background is my recognition of what our society is on a cultural level, parents are German immigrants, came to this and that it is not just French or English cultures. country after the war. They lived in German Manitobans are representative of cultures from all communities in Ukraine for over 1 00 years prior to over the world, and that is what is Manitoba, that is coming to Canada, so we have a littleUkrainian , a what is a Manitoban. We do not have classes of litUeGerman in our background, and I was born here cultures. Everyone is equal in terms of preserving in Canada. and promoting their cultural heritage. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 192

Approximately one-third of Canadians are not of bringing in an act which makes that kind ofa remark, French or English culturalheritage, and what we do recognizes that particular aspect. Those are my have is a sense of alienation at times, even from comments. very large groups such as the German-Canadian Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Kammerloch. · community, that theydid not form partof Canadian Are there any questions? history or Manitoba history. This act clearly recognizes that and it says that all Manitobans, Ms. Cerllll: I have some questions, and I want to regardless of their cultural background, are equal in pass Mr. Kammerloch a sectionof the government's terms of they are part of what makes this province, multicultural policy, if I could. I wantt9 ask you, first they are part of the definition. of all, Mr. Kammerloch, if you can tell me what the main concerns or the main objectives are of the I think what is important Is this act really-1 see it German-Canadian Congress. as something like a Manitoba act in the sense that it is defining what Manitoba is, what Manitoba * (2020) society is. Forthat I think it is a remarkable piece of Mr. Kammerloch: Well, again I would like to legislation, and I really applaud the minister and the clarify, I am not here on behalf of the governmentfor bringing in that legislation. German-Canadian Congress. I am here as a The other details of the act, in terms of the private citizen, but from my experience within that Multiculturalism Secretariat, in terms of its organization and from my involvement in preparing implementation and things of that sort, are very a brief on the constitutional amendments, I would flexible. I thinkit will take time to see how the act is say, as I already indicated, it is really a recognition, implemented and how it should be implemented, and being partof the definitionof Canadian society and I feel that there will be, as in any legislation, and Manitoba society is very important to the perhaps refinementsrequired once the legislation is German-Canadian community. We often hear of underway and its operation is more closely English Canada and French Canada,but we do not understood. identify the other cultural groups that have had a major involvement in the building of Canada and I would just like to conclude by saying, the act Manitoba and those groups that through clearly sets out, the way I read it, that it does not immigration may continue in the future to have an exclude any aspect of Manitoba society. It is an involvement. inclusive piece of legislation. It supports an inclusive conceptnot an exclusive concept. It does I think what we have to understandis that Canada not put people into groups. Everyone is part of and Manitoba are a composite of all thosedifferent Manitoba society, and it is unifying and it is thinking. cultural groups and we have to get away from a class structure ofdifferent cultural groups. We have Again, that is strongly the position of the official languages; that is partof the make-up of the German-Canadian Congress in its brief on the country to recognize official languages. There is a constitutional amendments. That brief very much historical reason for that, and we accept that,but I stressed a strong Canada clause which gives do notthink anyone accepts official cultures. What recognition to Canadians of whatever particular I supportin this actis that it veryclearly defines what cultural background they are, so again I would is Manitoba society and recognizes that it is support that very strongly and the wording of the act multicultural in nature. very strongly. That is really the thrust of what, as I understand I think basically it says, in analyzing it, whether it, the German-Canadian community wants to you are a Manitoban of native origin or a recent have-thatkind of a recognition not just for itselfbut immigrant, or whether you are part of a visible for all Manitobans and Canadians of various cultural minority or whether you are part of a large backgrounds. mainstream group, that your cultural heritage and your right to promote it is equal, that your particular Ms. Cerllll: Would it be fair to say that the cultural background, your heritage has contributed organization as well is there to ensure that the just as much to the making of Manitoba as any other, German language and culture are continued and and I think that is really the most significant that people of German heritage are going to be recognition in the act. I applaud the minister for portrayedin a favourable way in the society that we 193 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

live in in Canada? Would those be things that the Mr. Kammerloch: I have nothad an opportunityto organizationis here for? review what you have provided me with, but my Mr. Kammerloch: I think that goes hand in hand understanding is, in the ac1-l will just tum to the with the recognition aspect. H German Canadians section that deals with that-it does refer to are Canadians andpart of Canadaas much as any "encourage the use oflanguages that contribute to other group, certainlythey have a right to have their the multicultural heritage of Manitoba• under particular heritage and culture promoted. Where "Purpose of secretariat." So I think it does, to some they need assistance in that regard, as being extent, reflect thatan d statethat in theact. Manitobans or Canadians, they havea right to some Ms.Cerllll: Agaln, lwill tryandbemore clear. This assistance in that regard, on some reasonable is one of my concernswith the legislation, that it is basis. But language is a very important part of not strong enough becauseit does not putsome of culture, and certainly the preservation and the multicultural policy that the government promotion of a language is very important. developedInto the policy sectionof theact, and that Mr. Green was indicating, well, we do not have­ the part thatrefers to heritagelangu age is simply a we have never had, a policy of officialcultures. Just role of the secretariat. by the fact that you dohave official languages, there I would like-if we might benefit from your legal is an advantage in having your language, of your opinion on legislation; that it would be stronger ifthat particular cultural background, as an official were actually part of the policy section; the pages language. H you are of a cultural background that that I gave to you are the government's own does not have that language pervasive in society, multicultural policy, where it is very clear-1 guess, to you are at a bit of a handicap, and you may needa ask if you can understand why that entire little assistance interms of preservingthat particular government policy, which includes the preservation language. of languages, would not be Included under the policy I think thislegislation directlydeals with heritage section ofthe act. languages. I also think there happens to be a Mr.Kammerloch: Well, firstof all­ tremendous economic spin-off from citizens of our province knowing different languages, especially Point of Order languages that are what you would call world Mr. Chairperson: Excuse me. Madam Minister, languages. That goes hand in hand with on a point of order. understanding those cultures as well, in terms of trade, in terms of doing business in other countries. Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Sothere are, veryhappily, some economicben efits Heritage and Citizenship): Excuse me, Mr. to that kind ofa policy as well. Chairperson, on a pointof order, I would just like to clarify, because I thinkthat some of thequestioning Ms. Cerllll: I am going to assume that you would is highly inappropriatein certain degrees, because supportthe govemmenfs policythat was developed we are trying to get a legal interpretation from a a couple of years ago-that this government presenter- developed. In thatpolicy, there is specific language that says a government has a responsibility to An Honourable Member: A free one. ensure that communities are able to promote the Mrs.Mitchel son: Yes, withoutcharge, I might say. continuation oftheir language. The papers thatI put before you are an outline of that policy. Mr. Kammerloch: I was just goingto say that I was not here paid to provide a legal opinion. I am going to ask you: as a lawyer-would it not strengthen the legislation,in terms of ensuringthat Mrs.Mitche lson: But can I just clarify that,in fact, ethnocultural minorities and groups with a language thereare three fundamental principles- thatis not an officiallanguage of the country,wo uld Mr. Chairperson: Sorry, I will interject. The It not ensure that the policy to promote those minister does not have a point of order, but I will languages would be stronger if it were included in allow theminister to clarify. the policy section of the legislation? Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. I Mr.Kammerlo ch: To promote thoselangu ages? want to make it clear to the presenters andall of the Ms.Cer llll: That is right. presenters- June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 194

Ms.Cer llll: Mr. Chairperson,I would just like to put *** on the record that if the Chair is going to allow the minister this kind of point of order for point of Ms. Cerllll: I was just going to say, Mr. clarification-which is what it actually is-then the Chairperson, that the word "culture" could include other members of thecommittee during this session language, but since the minister's act has not should be affordedthe same opportunity. defined culture we cannot assume that that section includes language. So I think that my questionsare Mr.Chairpers on: Ms. Cerilli doesnot have a point quite in order. of order. I will allow, if for clarification purposes, at any given time, the minister to intervene to ensure Mr. Kammerloch: Mr. Chairperson, I think what that members of the committee and that members really the point of this whole discussion is, it has of the public understand the legislation clearly that made it very evident that it is a question of is being put before them. interpretation, and as I indicated earlier, you put

*** forward legislation. The basic principles that are stated in the legislation, it is my feeling, are very profound. They are very positive. I would support Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I do just want them very strongly in terms of defining Manitoba to indicate to the presenter that there are three society as a multicultural society and giving that fundamental principles in "Manitoba's Policy for a recognition. Multicultural Society" that we adopted into the legislation. Under those three fundamental How this legislation is implemented and how it is principles there are action statements, things that followed is something we will have to watch very government has already committed to take action closely. If changes are required I am sure we will on. Thoseare actionsthat flow from the three policy be-after some experience with the act-1 am sure statements, and I would hate presenters to be there will be some contact and lobbying in terms of confused, believing that in fact there are more than making any changes that are required. I do not three fundamental principles when that is exactly think you can drafta pieceof legislation and have it what itstates in the policy, and that is being reflected perfect. It has to stand thetest of time. So I would in the legislation. Government from time to time will just say, generally in terms of the expression of the have ongoing action, and there will be new action, intent of the act, I supportit very strongly. and there will be action that will be accomplished Ms.Cer llll: Mr. Kammerloch,I understandthat you and will no longer need to be continued. So I just are on the Manitoba Intercultural Council as a wanted to make that point of clarification. government appointment. Is that correct? Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Chairperson, on a further point of Mr. clarification. The section that the minister has Kammerloch: Yes, that is correct. referred to includes theword "culture" in part 2(b), Ms.Cer llll: Do you feel that this legislationis going but- to assist in any way in the role between the Point of Order Multicultural Secretariat and the Manitoba Intercultural Council, and ifso, how? Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, I was Mr. Kammerloch: I think that would be difficult to somewhat tolerant in terms of the manner in which say. I understand there is a studybeing undertaken the minister got to express, for clarification. I think by Don Blair in terms of MIC's role, and howit will we should remind both the minister and the member interact with this legislation. So I would think that is for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) that in fact we are hearing the subject ofa major study. presentations from the public. Itis more appropriate to listen to what the public have to say, and if we I do not think I can answer that question from just have questions, that we ask questions of the looking at this particular act, and make any kind of presenters,and that applies to all three parties. a comment on it. I can only-as I said earlier, the general principles that are stated in the act are very * (2030) positive and I would support them very strongly. I Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much. The would hope that the study that Mr. Blair is making Chair will take that as note, although the honourable will assist us in understanding how MIC will play a member did not have a point of order. role in this legislation. 195 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

Ms. Cerllll: Asa member of MIC, do you not see it cultures, and I do not think the wording of this as a weakness in the act that there is no mention of legislation sees it that way. MIC? There is a section that refers to the minister We are one culture. Each of us have contributed consulting with bodies in the community, groups in something towardthat culture, andby allowing us to the community, that there is no mention of MIC in promote and preserve our cultural heritage it is part that section or that there is no definitionof MIC as of the evolution of Manitoba's culture. In terms of giving information to the secretariat? equal rights as to languages, I am personally Mr. Kammerloch: The way I see it, Ms. Cerilli, this prepared to recognize the history of this country. is an act about Manitobans, about defining You have to have an official language for a Manitobans. It is not an act about MIC, it is about country to function, and I am prepared to recognize defining Manitoba's society as a multicultural the unique history of this country in terms of French society. How MIC will fit into that is, as I said, a and English being the official languages. subjectof a study and I will not commenton that, but Mr. Santos: I think you have to look at this legislation as very If I accept your premise that all fundamental legislation defining the nature of our cultures are equaland by definition the means, the province as a multicultural society. That is what is medium, through which that culture is being important to me, and I believe, Manitobans. How expressed, namely by language, how do you thatis implemented is another matter. reconcile any incongruency or inconsistency in a social system where some languages are Mr. Conrad Sa ntos (Broadway): Mr. designatedas official and by definitionhave higher Chairperson, can I ask a few questions to Mr. status than others that are nonofficial? Kammerloch? Mr. Kammerloch: As I indicated, for a country to Mr. Chairperson: Proceed please. work you have to have an official language. We Mr.Santos : I would like to ask Mr. Kammerlochif happen to have two official languages because of there can be any society which is multicultural our history,but you cannot have a countrywork with withoutbeing multilingual? 20 or 30 official languages, so I am prepared to recognize that. Mr. �ammerloch: I would say no. I think culture and languagego very much hand in hand, not at all That doesnot mean you cannot,in theworkplace, times but very much so. That is a very large at home and all kindsof other environments, in the componentof culture, and I thinkit is a positivething educational system, et cetera, preserve and ifwe do have a multilingual country and province. promote a particular language. That is what I support. As an official, I just do not think it is Mr. Santos: Another question, Mr. Chairperson. practical to have more than one, or in the case of Can any cultural group truly express its culture in Canada, twoofficial languages. any otherway thanthrough itsown language? Mr.Chairperson : Are there any otherquestions? Mr. Kammerloch: I would say you can to some Ms. Cerllll: Do you support a program of equal degree. As I indicated, I think language is a very opportunitythrough affirmative action policy? important component, but I think there are other aspects of culture such as music, dance and Mr. Kammerloch: No, I do not. That is my traditions, food, all kinds of things that can be personal opinion. I support equal opportunity. expressed otherthan in language. As I indicated, it Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much for your is a very large component of culture. presentation, Mr. Kammerloch. Mr. Santos: Does Mr. Kammerloch accept or not Mrs. Mitchelson: The point of order that was acceptequality ofall cultures, and correspondingly, raised by the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), equalityof all languages? was a point well taken. I do want to indicate that I If Mr.Kammerloch: I accept equalityof all cultures, am not saying very much. I can just say right but I really do not look at it that way. I look at now-hopefully all of the presenters are here-1want Canada, Manitoba as having one culture. We are to thank all of you for your valuable contributions and all Manitobansand partof the makeup of thatculture I will tryto keep my remarks very limited. is the input that we all bring from our particular The purposes of our being here, as all three cultural heritage. I do not see it as separate parties in the Legislature, is to listen to the June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 196

presenters and hear your points of view. So I will Our chapter presidents to date include brother thank you all in advance, and for thoseof you who Lee Williams, brother Ralph James (deceased), have presented already, I thank you for your sister Agnes Calliste, sister Ethel Whyte-Cousey, valuable input. brother Louis Moore, brother Alix Jean-Paul and Mr. Chairperson: Would the committee next call myself, Wade KojoWilliams. Gabriel Dufault. Not here? The committee next Over the years, our chapter has initiatedseveral calls Mr. Gene Lloyd. Is Mr. Gene Lloyd here? Not importantcom munityprojects. We have advocated here? The committee next calls Mr. Wade Williams. on behalf of our community and our race, as well as Mr. Williams, have you a prepared text to other minority communities,and we have lobbied all distribute? levels of government and political parties on a number of issues of concernto our community and Mr. Wade Williams (National Black Coalition of Canada): Yes, I have passed it to your committee society at large. Our main annual activity is the about an hour ago. sponsorship and co-ordination of activities to celebrate Black History Month during February. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. Would you proceed, please? The NBCC has been most active and vocal on issues pertaining to human rights. We are indeed a * (2040) small and tireless group in the struggle against Mr. Williams: Mr. Chairperson, committee racism and the fight for equal accessto opportunity members, ladies and gentlemen, we of the National for all Canadians, regardless of race and socio­ Black Coalition welcomethis opportunityto appear economic circumstances. The National Black before you to speak to Bill 98, which is intended to Coalition of Canada holds memberships in, and enactmulticulturalism in the province of Manitoba. networks with, several international, national and The Winnipeg chapter of the National Black provincial organizations including the Manitoba Coalition of Canada, NBCC, was formed in 1980. Intercultural Council and the National Council on Our organization's aims and objectives include the Employment Equity. following: The NBCC has carefully studied Bill 98, line by 1)To ensure that blackpeople of Canada achieve line, clause by clause. We would like to say from full social, cultural, political and economic the outset that our organization welcomes the participation in the shaping of a humane society, introduction of a multiculturalismact for theprovince and that blacks benefitfully from this society; of Manitoba. We, as an organization, wholeheart­ 2) To eradicate all forms of discrimination in edly support the conceptand principle of Bill 98. Canadian society; However, there are some aspectsof the proposed 3) To foster communication and a spirit of legislation which we feel should be strengthened. solidarity among blacks in Canada, regardless of There are some areas we feel should be deleted, nationalorigi n; and some roles of agenciesoutlined in the bill which we believe will result in a waste of taxpayers' money To fostercommun icationand co-operation with 4) since they merely duplicate existing roles and blacks of other nations in matters of common services and leave room for widespread interest; politicization of these agencies. 5) To provide a basis for a community response One cannot but wonder why, in this period of to crises and issues of general concern; financial restraint, the government of the day 6) To provide a vehicle through which the black creates agencies and councils to provide services community may avail itself ofthe aid andadvice of already provided with a great measure of success the most experienced, skilled and committed and fairness by existing agencies. Neither can it resource persons; escape the eye of the most casual observer that 7) To fostercomm unication andco-operation with either by coincidence or by design these new other Manitoban communities, community agencies are all staffed by individuals with direct organizationsand individualsin matters ofcommon links to the political party of the government of the interest. day. 197 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

For this bill, Bill 98, to have meaning andimprove responsible for Multiculturalism shall chair the the lifestyles of the disenfranchised Manitobans Multicultural Affairs Committeeof Cabinet. several changes must be made. The government Under "Multiculturalism Secretariat", Clause 5(a): needsto introducecompanion legislation as well as Amend to read, work in consultation with the amend theManitoba Intercultural Council's act. Manitoba Intercultural Council and officials and We ofthe NBCC fail to understandwhy someone other departmentsand agenciesof thegovernment has been contracted to study the MIC when this to identify, prioritize and implement actions to council has already been studied to death in the last contribute to the achievement of a successful and fiveyears. There was the specialAudito r's reportof equitable multicultural societyin Manitoba. 1988, as well as several symposiums out of which Clause 5(b) delete. We believe that this role Is came several resolutions during the Biennial already carriedout by the MIC. Assembly ofJune, 1990 and 1991, and of course severalcouncil meetings within the last two years. Clause 5(c) delete. We believe that this role is already carriedout by the MIC. We nowcall on thegovernment to make a public disclosure of its contract with Mr. Don Blair for his Clause 5(d) delete. We believe that this role is study of the Manitoba Intercultural Council. Further already carried out by the Manitoba Intercultural to this, there was the Neil McDonald Report which Council. resulted in a comprehensive study of the structure "Community access office·-clause 6. We and the mandate of the MIC. recommend that it be deleted. We believe the Let me now focus on Bill 98 and recommend existence of this office is a duplication of the necessary improvement&.- I would like to take you services already provided or which could be through thebill clause by clause. provided by the MIC, the Immigration/Settlement Branch of this veryministry of Culture, Heritage and The preamble: The NBCC supports the Citizenship and/or the International Centre. Multiculturalism Policy introduced by the government in May, 1990. Again, we support the We strongly urge that the government enhance preamble of Bill 98. the services of these agencies. "Interpretation·: Delete •council. • We oppose * (2050) theInclusion ofthe Multiculturalism Grants Advisory Under "MulticulturalismGrants Advisory Council", Council in this or any other bill. Insert and define Clauses 7 through 13, delete. We believethen, that cultural values, cultural communities and equal is when MGAC was brought into being, and we access. believe now that there is absolutely no reason for Under"Multiculturalism policf, Clause2(c): We this agency to exist. would like it to be amended to read, enhancethe Again, we call on the government to provide a opportunitiesof Manitoba's multicultural society by comparisonanalysis of the workings ofMGAC and acting in partnership with all communities and by thegrants committee that existed when the MIC was encouragingco-operation and partnerships. the bodywith thefunding authority. Under "Mandate of minister•, Clause 3(a): We believe, and we believe the taxpayers would Amend to read, upon advice of the Manitoba like to knowwhat it coststo have MGAC functioning. Intercultural Council as mandated in The MIC Act, We still wholeheartedly support the immediate the minister will act as an advocateto ensure that amendment or immediate amendments to the policies and programs throughout the government Manitoba Intercultural Council act and the reflect the multiculturalism policyset out in Section restoration of the funding authority to that 2. organization. Clause 3: Insert (e) to read, and this is a new The MIC believes thatthe minister would be better addition to that clause on the minister's advised or grants will be more fairly awarded by a responsibility, work to ensure that companion body elected by communities across Manitoba. legislation is put in place to make The Surely, we do believe that the minister and Multiculturalism Act effective, and (f) to read, The government believe that funds to operate MGAC is Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship unnecessarywaste. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 198

"Annual report"-Ciause 14. We support this Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Williams. Are clause. This is the only evidence that the there any questions? government is willing to listen and act upon the Ms.Cer llll: Thank you, Mr. Williams. That was a recommendations coming out of this committee very good presentation. I appreciate the detailed stage of the bill. We note, with interest, the work you have put into the amendments, and I think exclusion of the Multiculturalism Grants Advisory that a number of them are very good amendments. Council from this clause. I want to start off by asking you what your hopes "C.C.S.M. reference"-Ciause 15. Agreed. were for what should be included in this legislation. "Coming into force"-Clause 16. Agreed. What are the key things that you think should have been included in this legislation? The NBCCs' call for companion legislation and amendments to The MIC Act are quite Mr.Williams: What I hoped for, and I believe what straightforward. The latest statistics coming from all Manitobans hope for, was a legislation that will the government's own affirmative action program, give not only legal authority but would give enabling which is nothing more than an agreement with the authority to multiculturalism, the department of MGEA, are enough to signal to the government that Multiculturalism and other agencies involved with the delivery of services to provide equal access to Bill 98 would be meaningless without companion legislation containing, monitoring and enforcement opportunity in Manitoba. mechanisms. I am not a lawyer. I am not a studentof law. As a matter of fact, I am not a student of anything, but Does the government expect to achieve equal I believe that those of us who have been involved in accessto opportunity by merely relying on change this area for a number of years would feel very of attitudes In society? Does the government disappointed. expect to achieve the freedom and opportunity to participate in the broader life of the society without Yes, the government ought to be commended, any provision to mandate anti racist and multicultural but unless Bill 98 would have enabling clauses or education throughout schools in this province? unless the government is willing to introduce immediately, companion legislation or amend the Mr. Chairperson, members of the committee, our MIC Act and give back the powers that were taken presentation here tonight is not an attempt to away from the MIC within the last four years, we criticize the government for what we believe should would have been better off saving taxpayers the be or should not be included in Bill 98. We are thousands of dollars and the hours wasted here putting forward what we believe are because we were doing just fine with the policy. If recommendations worthy of consideration and this is what this bill is, we would have been much implementation. better off with the policy. As was the case immediately following the Ms.Cerll ll: Are you concerned that the legislation unveiling of the multiculturalism policy in 1990, the does not enact the complete government's National Black Coalition now commends the multicultural policy that was developed recently? government on its bold initiative to introduce a Yes, Mr. Chairperson, we are multiculturalism act for the province of Manitoba. Mr. Williams: We trust that this bill will be improved before third concerned. The minister, in raising a point of clarification outlined that the act proposes to reading and passage. encompass the three fundamental principles Over the past 1 0 years, the NBCC has been at outlined in the policy. A policy is the basis for the forefront of community organizations in the legislation and the fact that the three broad struggle for society change in this community. Our fundam ental policies included in the presentation here tonight is the work of concerned multiculturalism policy, the fact that they are Manitoba and Canadian citizens afterthorough and included here, means nothing to this act, to the rational analysis of the bill before you, Bill 98. ministeror to Manitoba. On behalf of the executive membership and Thetime for platitudes are over. Platitudes in the supporters of the effortsof the NBCC, once again I policy, fine. A legislation to enable that policy to be would like to thank you for allowing us this given some teeth and some meat is long overdue, opportunity. and I do not see it here in this legislation. 199 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

Let me remind the honourable members sitting to be song and dance and a vote-catching around this table, and we can check our watches, mechanism by politicians. the time and the date that I am making this Mr. Lamoureux: statement. We in Canada believe that we are the First, I must say, right from the envyof the world when it comesto race relations as onset, Mr. Williams is likely one of the most bad as things seem to be sometimes. However, if consistent individuals whom I have run across. we sitback in a complacent manner, if we sit back Whenever an issue comes before the Chamber, he in a holier than thou manner, I believe that 20 years is definitely on the telephone to get a hold of me to from now history will judge every one of you fine express his opinions, as I know he does for many gentlemen and ladies around this table for avoiding differentindividuals. I commendhim on his effortin the experiences of Brixton and Notting Hill and putting forward the presentation that he has put together, on relatively shortnotice, no doubt, forthe Miami and the Bronx and New York to be visited on committee this evening. any city in Canada. This bill can be improved so that we could work I notice, in his presentation, that he has made toward keeping Canada free of these kinds of reference, in terms of the Manitoba GrantsAdvisory experiences. We hope that it will be improved Council-something that we firmly believe in, before the third reading stage. something that we will be moving an amendment to get the MGAC taken out of The Multiculturalism Act­ Ms. Cerllll: When you are speaking of enabling and other issues that he has brought before the legislation, is whatyou have in mind that there would committee. No doubt, we will beseeing some of the be a descriptive policy statement with respect to amendments, being proposed at the very least, that affirmative action and equal opportunity in Mr. Williams is bringing forward. employment with respect to heritage language, with respect to multiculturaVcross-cultural education in My question is justto help me clarify, with respect theschools? Are thosethe kinds of things that you to the Manitoba Intercultural Council, are you, Mr. are looking for? Williams, of the opinion that the MIC should be incorporated into The Multiculturalism Act or would Mr. Williams: Precisely. I know that I would be you just as soon see MIC legislation? You made told, well, thereis a multicultural policyin Winnipeg reference to a change where they would be given Division No. 1. the granting authority. Now, would you rather see However, unless multiculturalism, a multicultural MIC outsideof the act, albeit changed in itseH, or a curriculum is developed in all Manitoba schools, partof a multicultural act? unless we have antiracist education in all Manitoba Mr. Williams: Thanks, Mr. Chairperson, through schools, unless we have, call it employment equity, you: to me, the answer to that question is that it is call it affirmativeaction, call it EEO, as the citydoes, as broad as it is wide. We can take either route. I unless, we have, firstof all, a school system that is do not believe we have to scrap the MIC Act and conducive to every student having access to incorporate theMIC's structure andits operation into learning, and until we have a work force that Bill 98 to have the MIC functioning as the bona provides for equal accessto opportunity,I challenge fide-and note the word, the "bona fide"­ anyone to tell me that there are not discriminatory representatives of the communities across this hiring practices. I challenge anyone to tell me that country. once some of us are hired, as tokens, as window dressers, and so on, that we do not face If the Manitoba Intercultural Council Act is discrimination in the work place, unless there is amendedas was proposeda year or so ago by both cross-cultural training, not only in the schools, but in opposition parties and several community the workplace. organizations including the MIC, ifit is amendedand the MIC is given back its roles, that is one to * (2100) advocate on behalf of its constituents, that is the Unless we have these kinds of measures put in more than 430 organizations across this country, place through legislation, multiculturalism in and then advise the minister who would advocate Manitoba-multiculturalismwhich is what Canada is, within cabinet and within government, if the MIC is because to deny multiculturalism is to deny the given back its role to act in a proactive manner on existence of Canada-multiculturalism will continue behalf of itsconstituency and if the MIC as it has for June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 200

a number years is given back itsfunding role, which * (211 0) by the way I believe costs a very small fraction for Now, to answer the question directly. Politicians the administration of the grants under the MIC as it on the opposition side of the House, I believe, will is causing now under the super agency called be blamed for denying Manitoba, particularlythose MGAC, we believe that if the actis amended to do of us from the so-called visibleethnic communities, those things that the MIC can function alongside a multiculturalism actand the government will have what is, minus of courseMGAC, included in Bill 98. a field day. Community activists like myself and The other route is, to forget that there is an MIC organizations like the one I belong to, if we were to Act, and I think it would be wrong because I think it say kill thebill we would be accusedof standing in would not be beneficial to the communities. The theway of a multiculturalismact for Manitoba. other route would be to have MIC incorporated into Well let me say here and now, there is nothingin this bill, butwe need not do thatso longas it is clearly this bill to kill, because there is no life in this bill. outlined in this bill, therole of the MIC or the role it There is nothing here to kill. If we have to kill the shall play in terms ofachieving the goals ofthis bill. bill, and I hope we do not have to because I am As long as we understand the relationship sure-1 knowthe minister very well, I am a vociferous between the MIC and the ministry of critic of her policies on a daily basis, but I know her Multiculturalism, as long as we understand the very well, we still get along and we still speak, I can working relationship between the MIC and the still pick up the phone and speak with her. I know Multiculturalism Secretariat, I believe that this bill the minister will make the necessary changes, so would go a far way into achieving what I believe the Mr. Lamoureux, I do not think we will have to get to minister and government and all Manitobans want the point where the bill has to be killed. to achieve. So my answer in a nutshell, Kevin, is, Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. whichever way we slice it, there is need for the role Chairperson, I will not take too much time because of the MIC to be included in Bill 98. all of the presenters are here but, as Mr. Williams Mr.Lamoureux: Rnally, Mr. Chairperson, I would knows, sometimes we are not on the same concur withwhat Mr. Williams is saying on that point wavelength on some of the issues, but on this I have is that if you had a choice, where because we are to agree with him on one issue which is very given a majority government, in which we could important. have Bill 98 passed in its current form or to be I will ask his opinion here, that by giving authority defeated, what would your choice be? Would you to an appointed body, in fact, government may be rather see Bill 98 passed in its current form given dividing the ethnic communities in the long run the flaws, and no doubt there will be amendments because, whether they realize it or not, when you put forward, but afterall, realistically, it is a majority are making an appointed body,you make a powerful government? If the amendmentsdo not pass would organization to distributeall the funds. you rather see it become law or be defeated? We have, on the other hand, the MIC, which is an Mr. Williams: Mr. Chairperson, that is a tough elected body. I thinkin the long run by bringing in question, and I think I have to give it a political this bill andhaving that partof the bill in this present answer because we have to understand that we form, I think it will do the ethnicminorities more harm have waited for more than two years after this bill than any good in the long run. I would like to have was supposedto bebefore us. I do believethat we your opinion. can wait a littlewhile if the governmentbelieves that it is necessary to line the pockets of some lone Mr.Williams: In a very frank way, as I always am, individual who has so much experience in consciously or subconsciously, I believe taking multiculturalism, who is so hard working and away the powers from the MIC, the funding dedicated to the cause of a multicultural and authority, whether you give it to MGAC or SMGAC equitable and just society that theyhave to overload or PLGAC or whatever, consciously or him andoverburden him with another contract. If in subconsciously it is racism and I will tell you why. wisdom the government decides to continueto enter I sat on the executiveof the MIC, and I can boast into this contract and have this study done, which I aboutit, elected unopposed twoconsecutive terms. believe is useless, why can we not wait for four In order to get there I had to be elected threetimes. months? We have waited for twoyears. For any one of you to be here sitting around this 201 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

table, which I hope I will be sitting around in the Mr.Santos : When MIC was originally established, not-too-distant future, you had to be elected twice. it was established as a truly democratic system, as You had to be elected during a nomination process, a macrocosm of our political system. and then you hadto be elected by the people. Mr. Williams: Mr. Chairperson, I believe so, sir. First of all, I had to be elected as the Mr.Santos : One observerof politicallife had made representative of my organization. Then I had to be a generalization that most organizations start as a elected by all of the organizationsin my group In the democratic system. Then, as it operates and as it MIC to get ontothe coun cil. Then I had to be elected finds its benefits and advantages there is this by the council at large to become an executive inevitable oligarchical tendency, what he calls the member. iron law of oligarchy, that operates within that Now what thegovern ment saidto us clearly, and organization where this democratically shared like I said before, I am not a student of anything,but power correspondinglyis being narrowed down into I believe thatwhat the governmentdid was to sayto thehands of fewer and fewer hands. Do youaccept thecommunities we do not trust you to give funds, such a generalization? and you are not qualified to do thejob. You visible Mr. Williams: Mr. Chairman, I would not accept ethnics cannot do it, so we have to go and set up such a generalization because I do not want the our own committee. The committee cannot give acceptanceof thatgen eralization to make it appear grants; all the committee can do is to advise the that I believe that there was a power for the few in government on who should get the grants. the MIC. I am saying,that thepower was taken away from Mr.Santos : Do you think this iron law of oligarchy the people. In a time, and a day, and an age when is now actually operating within MIC, in these kinds we see it before our eyes around this world that of legislativechanges? power is being handed back to the people, in this Mr.Williams: Well, what I know that is happening case, thepower was taken away from the people. I In the MIC is that therules have changed over the caution politicians, as well intentioned as these last four years, and we have a situation nowwhere actions might be, they can have serious the executive of the MIC is made up of over 60 consequencesin the long term. percent government appointees. When I made the I believe that the funding agency, the CRAC last check a few hours ago, 85 percent of that 60 committee of the MIC, worked extremely well. I percent of government appointees had direct believe that no committee, and I can go through the contact with government or activitiesof theparty of the government of the day, either as campaign Ji st, I do not want to get involved in partisan politics, workers, or the husbands were campaign workers but any political party of the day will do the same and that sort of thing. thing, who are in power. Committees like MGAC, the outreach office,the Multiculturalism Secretariat The point I want to make here is, it would be wrong they are nothing more than dumping grounds, it to throwout the baby with thebath water. If we are seems tome, for eitherfailed political candidates or to say, because there were some thingsthat were people who have worked closely on political not quite so right in the MIC so take away their campaigns, and I am saying that is not in the best funding authority, we would not have a government interests of multiculturalism. It is not in the best functioning anywhere in Canada today, because Interests of Manitoba. It is not in the best interests every government in Canada that I know todayhas its skeletons not only in the closet but walking all of Canada. It is not in the best interests of this around every government building. It is called planet Earth. corruption, patronage, nepotism. Mr. Santos: Mr. Williams, I heard that you are Mr. Santos: Mr. Chairperson, I would like saying that in any society the people who are specifically to refer to paragraph five on page 2 of elected by their constituents at any scale are the Mr. Williams' presentation. Why do you object to ones who have the mandate to make decisions for the partisan politicization of government agencies them. when you know very well that government cannot Mr.Williams: Yes. run withoutpolitical parties? June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 202

Mr. Williams: There is politicization and there is legislation, must beabl e to do something. As far as politicization. I feel very,very satisfied tonight when Bill 98 goes, none of us around this table or sitting I look around this room, I see a number of visible behind me can question the concept,the principles minorities here. and all thatis in the preamble andso on ofthis bill. Brother Santos, you know that in 1983, FAME However, ali i am saying is, that unless thisbill is came into being and this was our philosophy that given enablingand monitoring clauses, or unlesswe visible ethnics should be involved actively in the have companion legislation you will notbe able to political process in the party of their choices. realize, Mr. Santos, those goals that you have set We believe that visible ethnics must be involved out in your question to me. and we are not all socialists, we are not all Mr. Santos: Mr. Chairperson, I did not state Conservatives,we are notall Liberals. I would even anything of a goal that I am trying to achieve. All I love to see some visible minorities involved in the am asking is whether or not a multiculturalism Reform Party, so that we can have the Reform Party policy's true meaning can be found not in the come to its senses, because sooner or later we wording of the policy but In the actual would have to do business with the Reform Party. implementation of that policy andhow it affects The point I am making is, when I talk about social reality. politicization, let me make direct reference, and My question is: Do you think this legislation again, nothing personal. I cannot accept that less before us will affect that social reality in terms of than threeweeks after someone is defeated by the concrete action like affirmative action policy, electorate in a constituency in this province that a equality of opportunity and stamping out of department as sensitive as the Multiculturalism discriminatory practices? Secretariat, that person would be appointed there. Mr. Williams: Mr. Chairperson, no, sir, because Eminently qualified for the job, timing and even the Multiculturalism Affairs Committee of circumstances were wrong, and I cannot Cabinet is not mentionedin this bill. This bill would understand why this person is able to take with him not do those things, Mr. Santos. in that same department his campaign manager. I Ms.Cer llll: Yes, I do not want to take toomuch time cannot understand why this person is now becausewe do have so many more presenters, but overseeing a Multiculturalismdepartment, because you just mentionedsom ething thatI want to ask you that is what our head of the secretariat is, a very about. You have gone through a lot of detail with powerful man as far as multiculturalism goesin this some of your amendmentsbut I am wondering if you government. could put forward some sense of what you mean by We have someone who sat with him and worked "monitoring" clause. with him for years on the Folk Arts Council, now Mr. Williams: Okay. In the federal being given a one man task to study the MIC. This Multiculturalism Act it isnot there, but in theOfficial is the kind of crass politicization that I am talking Languages Act we have a commissioner of official about. I am not talking about politicizationin terms languages and that commissioner of official of activelyparticipating in politics. languages monitors the implementation and the * (2120) compliancewith the Official languages Act. This is Mr. Santos: Mr. Chairperson, accepting Mr. the kind of monitoring mechanism that I am alluding Williams' distinction between political participation, to. which he seems to say is legitimate, and crass, in Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Williams, for his own terms, politicization which he probably your presentation. Would it be the will of the wouldclassify as politicalcorruption of some sortor committee that we take a five minute break? of some degree, may I ask whether or not he feels Agreed. that any kind of policy,including multicultural policy, *** no matter how beautifullyit appears in print, the true meaning of the policy will depend on how its The committee took recessat 9:25 p.m. interpretation affects social reality in our society. Mr.Williams: You are quitecorrect, but in order for After Recess us to measure that, this policy which will be put in The committee resumed at 9:31 p.m. 203 LEGISLATIVEASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

Mr. Chairperson: Would the members of the Mr. Chairperson: I am going to ask you to start committee please come back to the table? Could your presentation while thecopies are being made. thecommittee please cometo order. Order, please. Would you proceed, please? I would ask members in the back or the presenters Ms. Anderson: Sure, Mr. Chairperson. Good to cometo order please. The committee would call evening to all of you honourablepeople and thanks next, Arnold Eddy. for allowing us to make our presentationat this time. Ms.Cer llll: I justhave a couple of questions for the I represent the Immigrant Women's Association committee. I was not on the committee when it of Manitoba, and on behalf of the Immigrant began for the evening session. I am wondering if Women'sAssociationof Manitoba, we welcome and we could clarify if there has been an agreement of we congratulate the Honourable BonnieMitchelson, when the committee is going to sit till this evening. Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship for Mr. Chairperson: The agreement before you introducingour first ever Multiculturalism Act for the came in, was that the committee would sit until we province of Manitoba. had heard all the presentations and then go into This to us is a positive step in theright direction. clause by clause of both bills. That was the The preamble is significant. It has recognized agreement at the beginning of this evening's sitting. multiculturalism as a fundamental characteristic of Ms.Cerll ll: Was that an agreement made after the Manitoba. Similarly, of significance, is the discussion ofthe House leaders? Were the House recognition of heritage language in the act. leaders involved in that decision at all? However, oneof the drawbacks of Bill 98, in our Mr. Chairperson: That agreement was arrived at view, is the fact that it is presented in broad in this committee. generalizations and offers scope for wide There was a request made that we hear a interpretations and applications. women's group. I guess it is the Immigrant The character which at once seems to be its Women's Association of Manitoba, and if there is greatest strength could be its greatest weakness in leave from the committee and consideration of caseswhere specific correctness are warranted. those presenters who are still left to make presentation,if it is with theirwill, thesewomen have The Immigrant Women's Associationof Manitoba would like the bill to become more specific in the asked whether it would be possible for them to be following areas: the next presenters. What is the will of the committee? Would you want to hear them and 1. In the legal justice system. Example: The would that be with the agreement of pnte�ection] increase in violence against women in both the Pardon? immigrant community and the community at large continues to need the sensitivity and Mrs. Mitchelson: If we could ask just for some responsiveness of government, because the need affirmativesense, yes or no, from those presenters who are waiting. Would it be possible to move the is urgent and violence against immigrant women Immigrant Women's up to be heard at this point in and all women in Manitoba continues to be an time? obstacleto the full participationof women in society. We would like to see the bill more specific in this Mr.Chairperson : Everybody agreeto that? Then area. I would ask Lena Anderson of the Immigrant Women's Associationof Manitoba to come forward 2. Multiculturalism education. We feel that at this time. Ms. Anderson, by the way, have you a multiculturalism education should be an integral part written presentation to distribute before the of the schoolsystem from Kindergartento Grade 12. committee? Also, that settlement, language and programs, which is referred to as the SLP and the ESL, should Ms. Lena Anderson (Immigrant Women's be included as a multicultural right of immigrants, Association of Manitoba): I do not have enough especiallyimmigrant women in Manitoba. copies, Mr. Chairperson, to distribute. 3. Racism and discrimination against immigrant Mr. Chairperson: We can make copies for the women and members of the visible minorities committee if you have some copies. continue to be a major problem. We therefore feel Ms.Ander son: Okay. Sure. that The Multiculturalism Act should address this by June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 204

inclusion of its intention to eradicate this social Ms. Cerllll: Are you familiar with the disease from our institutions and society at large. government's-have you read the government's policy on multiculturalism? Do you remember We would like to see specific reference to the reading that? elimination of racism and discrimination, social injustices and inequalities against immigrant Ms. Anderson: Mr. Chairperson, I have read it, women in the workplace, in education and in politics yes, time and time again, but not specifically this included in theact. time. An important tenantof this act is equal access to Ms.Cerll ll: Would you agree that It is kind of odd opportunity. The Immigrant Women's Association that the government would developthat policy and feel that this statement should be expanded to then not include it in legislation, would develop a include a firm and clear commitment from the multicultural policy and thennot include all the parts governmentof Manitoba to employment equity and of that policy where they claim to have a contract compliance. The act should also include commitment to affirmative action or employment provision for trainingto facilitate employment equity. equity, they claim to have a commitmentto heritage This is the only way we believe that the languages preservation, and then those things are underrepresentation of immigrant and visible not included in the act. Does that not seem odd? minority women in government and agencies could Ms. Anderson: Perhaps it does seem odd, but be effectivelyaddressed. maybe we cannot get everything at the same time, Ms. Cerilli, and maybe it is us, thepeople, who have Regarding the MIC, the Immigrant Women's to advise the government and tell the government Associationof Manitoba feel thatthe MIC should be where maybe we could strengthen and perhaps included in the act. We are disappointed by the some of these things to come in and to help us. I absence of any mention of MIC in the act. We are know it is a very sensitive issue and it is not a very also saddened that the proposed review was not popular issue. Therefore, I am not going to be the taken in time to be included in the act. one to condemn, but rather to ask to accommodate We hope, however, that the results of the review us in some way. will have a positive effect on MICs role, i.e., it will Ms.Cerll ll: You referred also to the timing of this serve to strengthen its role and that it will be legislation with respect to the review that was also consolidatedas partof TheMulticulturalism Act. proposed at the same time of MIC, and I am aware * (2140) that you are partof MIC. Is that correct? On behalf of the Immigrant Women's Association Ms.Anders on: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, I am one of of Manitoba, I would like to thank the Assembly for the board members of MIC. giving us this opportunityto voice our concernswith Ms. Cerllll: Can you describe for me more what regard to this act. your concerns are about the ramifications of the Ms. Cerllll: Thank you, Ms. Anderson, that was a review not being completed before this act is very good presentation. I am skimming through, brought in? looking for a place where we can try and incorporate Ms. Anderson: Mr. Chairperson, my some of the recommendations that you have made understanding is that the review was warranted and to specifically identify that women may need some inasmuch as we would have liked to have the review additional amendments to deal with their needs before, so that it could be included in the act or a because there is sort of a double discrimination part of the act, that did not happen. Therefore, we there. I appreciate that. are optimistic that the review will be positive or aspects of it will be, and those positiveaspects could I am wondering if some of the recommendations be more or less implemented in the act. that you just made, you believe should be included in the policy section of the act. Is that your intent? Ms. Cerllll: I am assuming that you were here for Mr. William's presentaton? Ms.Anderson : Mr. Chairperson, I am not so sure, because I am not a policy maker, whether it should Ms.Anderson : Yes, I was here. be in the policy or whether it should be in the act Ms. Cerllll: Do you share his concern that a itself. I am not very sure on those, Ms. Cerilli. number of the clauses under the secretariat's 205 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

section are actuallytaking on some of the mandate legislation? Did you cometo any conclusions in that of the Intercultural Council? respect? Ms.Anders on: Mr. Chairperson, in answer to your Ms. Anderson: Yes, Mr. Chairperson,the how to question, I did not study that partas such. In some put it in, that is not really my prerogative. I do not areas I thought there was some duplications, but know how we would work it, but I strongly believe again I do not know the ramifications. thereis a place where we couldput it. I would have Ms. Cerllll: Yes, I appreciate that you are here to study it further to see at what stage or at what representing the Immigrant Women's Association place, but I do know that there could be a place for and that was thefocus of your presentation. it there. I think under thepart in the bill that has to dowith Ms.Ander son: Thatwas thefocus of my-yes, Mr. the secretariat and where it talks about equal Chairperson, I am representing the Immigrant opportunity, in that area, I think it is (d) or (c), I think Women. We all sat together and this was the brief it is broad enough to be inclusive if we want to add that we thought we would present. such things in that area, like education,for instance. Ms.Cerll ll: Okay. Mr.Lamoure ux: Thank you. Mr. Lamoureux: I just had a couple of questions. Ms. Anderson: I do not know if I answered your First,once again, I think maybe what I shoulddo is question. qualify all of the presenters who are here, like the Mr.Lamoure ux: minister did earlier, by saying that we acknowledge Yes, you did, thank you. all thehard work, no doubt, thatis put forwardin all Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Ms. thepresentations. Anderson. I do have a couple of very brief questions. One is Mr. Santos: Ms. Anderson, what experiential with respect to the Manitoba Intercultural Council. evidence or observation can you say when you In your opinion-becauseI am not too sure ifyou had stated that there is a need which is urgent against the opportunity to really have the type of dialogue violence against immigrant women? that you might havewanted to have with respect to Ms. Anderson: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, thoseof us a multicultural act-do you feel that if you had an who even read the newspaper over the last few amendment brought forwardto 8111 98that included weeks have seen women are being battered here in some part-Mr.Wade Williams pointsout a couple and there before our eyes, on the streets, in our of areas in terms of ministerial responsibilitiesin the homes, particularly by our partners. We see it on secretariafs office and so forth butdoes not make television. Itis in the newspaper. It is all over, Mr. any reference to the Manitoba Intercultural Act. In Santos. otherwords, we leave twoacts, but have reference Mr.Santos : Do you think some of this behaviour to the Manitoba Intercultural Council in The is culturally related? MulticulturalismAct. Would you supportsomething of that nature or would you still rather see MIC Ms. Anderson: Mr. Chairperson, I do not think incorporatedinto a multicultural act? violence can be cultural. Ms.Anders on: Mr. Chairperson,from my vantage Mr.Santos : I mean the macho image. point,I think I wouldrather see MIC incorporated as Ms.Anders on: I do not think so and, even if it is, partof theact toobut, strangely enough, that is just Mr. Santos, we haveto have somethingin place to my own opinion. I did not discuss that aspect with help us to take care of our women or else prettysoon my members. we will not have any, with the rate at which it is going Mr.Lamoureux: Finally, I was going just to ask-1 today, the violence, the battering. Therefore, we was really interested when you pointed out in your have to have some legislation there and then we presentationthe importanceof education, ifyou will. would perhaps look at the legal system and see if I do not think that you can underestimate the something couldnot be worked out there to protect importanceof education in terms of multiculturalism all women. and racism and so forth. Is there any type of Mr. Santos: Do you think this violence and conclusion that you came to in regards to how discrimination is directed only against immigrant something of that nature could be put into women? June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 206

Ms. Anderson: Mr. Chairperson, I did mention in Council in a voluntary capacity. I wish to speak in my presentation that immigrant women, and all support ofthe Manitoba MulticulturalismAct, as was women for that matter, particularly immigrant presented by theHonourable Bonnie Mitchelson, on women, but all women in general, too. Wednesday, June 10, 1992. * (21 50) I holda B.A., majoringin psychologyand minoring Mr. Santos: There is an emphasis in your No. 3 in sociology, so if the reverse is true, majoring in there, racism and discrimination against immigrant sociology and minoring in psychology, a BSW in women and members of visible minority continueto social work and an MSW in social work. I have been be a major problem. in this countryfor over 20 years, and I was privileged to work with different people from all the ethnic Ms. Ander8on: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, that is so groups, notjust visible minorities, in a professional true. We have just to look at the recent riots in Los capacity, and in my role as a volunteer worker, like Angeles and in partsof T oronto to see that is evident what I am doing now as the chairperson of MGAC. when it comesin terms of the visible minorities. We, as immigrant women in Manitoba, we too are losing I was present on May 15, 1990, when Premier out. Filmon and the Honourable Bonnie Mitchelson announced Manitoba's policy for a multicultural Mr.Santos : How would you remedy, ifyou were in society. At that time the government defined a position to do so, what you perceived to be Manitoba's multicultural society as a single society underrepresentation of immigrant and visible which shared laws, aspirations and responsibilities. minority women in governmentand agencies? It rejected the concept of our societyas one based Ms. Anderson: Mr. Chairperson, if I understand on a collection of many separate societies, divided your question, Mr. Santos, I would like to-as you by language and culture. have seen mentioned in my brief, about affirmative It further set forth itsthree fundamental principles action and contract compliance accompanied with training for our immigrantwomen. of pride, equality and partnership. Therestatement of the above, and the addition of shared values to Mr. Santos: So, you think then this should be the definition of the act, is an indication regarding included in the act? the sincerity of the government in its multicultural Ms.Anders on: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, I think there legislation. is a definite need for that sort of action. Within that framework, cultural diversity is Ms. Cerllll: I just want to pick up on that one recognized as strength rather than as weakness. question. Are you aware that the government's Moreover, the right of all Manitobans, and I say all policy statement does include all of those things? Manitobans, to equal access in opportunity, Are you aware of that? participationin all aspectsof societyand respect for Ms.Anderson : Yes, but what I am saying, I would their cultural values is acknowledged. like to see it spelled out in the act. I have noted too that the processprovides for the Ms.Cer llll: Good, so would I. advancement of the Manitoban multiculturalsociety by endorsing its partnership with other cultural Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Ms. communities. Anderson, for your presentation. I refer next to the multicultural policies structural We will revert back then to the order as listed. facilitations. The next presenter will be Mr. Arnold Eddy, private citizen. Mr. Eddy wouldyou come forward, please? First is the Honourable Bonnie Mitchelson, who is Have you a formal presentation to distribute? the Ministerof Culture, Heritage and Citizenshipand Mr. Arnold Eddy (Private Citizen): No, Mr. the Minister responsible for Multiculturalism. Mrs. Chairperson. Mitchelson is a capable person who is dedicated in serving Manitobans. Her support with the ethnic Mr.Chairpers on: Would you proceed, please? community across the province shall surely assist Mr. Eddy: Mr. Chairperson, members of the her in discharging her responsibility. Her committee, ladies and gentlemen. I appear before achievement in this realm, after only a two-year you this evening as a private citizen, and as period, suggests that the office could never have chairperson of the Multicultural Grants Advisory been in better hands. 207 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

The second important facilitator of the I am not here talking foreach member of the board multicultural policy is the secretariat, established of the Grants Advisory Council, but I am sure we primarily as an advisory and co-ordinative body. It have different ideologies. Sometimes it really gets has already distinguished Itself as a fundamental to you that people are just there criticizing. tool, all its present sevenfold duties as spelled out I felt very happy when the Minister of Culture, in theact on page 4. Heritage and Citizenship {Mrs. Mitchelson) sent a One sees the elaborate function of this body in positive message to our community by appointing operation. Its communal enhancement, me as the first visible minority chairperson to head promotional responsibility and encouragement the Grants Advisory Council. I thought that was a activities set it apart from any other multicultural goodthing and she should be commended for that. bodythat existedin thisprovince prior to Its coming into being. I shall now turn my attention to some of the accomplishments of the multicultural policy, since Consequently, Mr. Chairperson, the its adoption in May of 1990. There are two establishment of this structure must be instances of the co-operative collaborative commended, for ItIs this agency that operatesat a approach, as it iscalled forin multiculturalism. popular level and hence servesas the intermediary between people and government. One of these is the setting of an awareness program between the Minister of Labour {Mr. The opening of thecommunity accessoffice is the Praznik) and the Multiculturalism Secretariat. The third important arm of the multicultural policy other is that of the multicultural education policy, It officially opened on May 14, 1992. is an office through co-operation between the Minister of which provides practical assistance to groups and Education {Mrs. Vodrey) and Multiculturalism. individuals in dealing with departments and agencies of government. The purposeof this office These programs underlie two of the essential says it all. That is, the commitment of the attributesof multiculturalism. One, awareness; two, government to Its people in its cultural pursuit, education. The government is In the process of therefore the greater the access the wider is the reviewing the Manitoba intercultural policy which communication beyond the channels between the was established under a different legislative act. A government and itspeople. consultant, as it has been mentioned, has been appointed to undertake such a process and report The fourth pillar of the multicultural policy Is the to theminister by October 15. establishment of the Multicultural Grants Advisory Council. This body was established to further the Itis beyond me to tryand figure out why you have three fundamental principles by recommending all this paranoia. The study has not yet been done. funding to assist in community organizations in its How can we addresswhat is goingto be in the study promotion and shared cultures, heritages, and and what is not going to be in thestudy? We have address thechallenges of living in harmony. to wait until the study has been accomplished. • {2200) {Mr. Gerry McAlpine, Acting Chairperson, in the Guidelines are provided to assist organizations Chair) which may be considering applications. Cultural As far as I am concerned, this multicultural policy development is stressed. that is being debated here this evening is a kind of Priority is given to Manitoban-based activities of a base line study on which to bounce off. It is like a an intercultural nature, upgradingof skills ofhuman springboard. In the future, amendments, I am sure resources to volunteers and the development of can be made. You cannotinclude everythingin any communities and organizations. policy, just like how you cannot fill your house up with all the furniture that you would like to buy. It just Mr. Chairperson, on a personal note, sometimes would not hold it. I get frustrated with people in the community. Here I am, I have a full-time job, I give up my time on The artistic expression of the Manitoba cultural Saturdays, Sundays, sometimes during the week, diversity has always been encouraged by the only to be criticized by some people in the government. Many ethnic groups received financial community for talking about favouritism and support over the years, and the government is still patronage. committed to a continuation of its role in that area. June 22, 1992 LEGISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 208

Toward that end, an Arts branch has been Consequently, the government need not be established within the Department of Culture, concerned about such baseless attacks. The Heritage and Citizenship. Its purpose is that of government is also advised to pay no attention to funding all community-based arts, including that of certain individuals who never see any good in the folk ethnocultural type. In its baHie against anything. In their zeal to condemn, they have lost racism, the government appointed an antiracism the ability to commend. Unable to move forward, coordinatorwithin its Citizenship Division on March they shuffle backward, taking the weary with them. 20 of this year. As citizens of the province, theyhave the right to Recognizing the effectiveness of co-operative express themselves. However, forward-looking approach, the Citizenship Division, in alliance with members have no obligation to listen to them. the Civil Service Commission, implemented a pilot Mr. Chairperson, I want to thank you and your antiracism training program within the Department committee for the opportunity given me to make my of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. Funding is presentation. As a citizen and as the chairman of provided to this agency through a process called the Multicultural Grants Advisory Council, I hope Bridging Cultures and several antiracism projects and pray that this act will be passed as a base line have been approved for funding. whereby future amendments can be made. Thank Immigrants have had difficultiesfrom time to time. you. With an appropriate evaluation of their credentials, The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Thank to deal with this problem, the labour market and you, Mr. Eddy. Would you entertain questions from Immigrant Credentials Branch of the Citizenship the committee? Division was created in March of this year. These are all positive steps. Mr. Eddy: Certainly, Mr. Acting Chairperson. Mr. ActingChairperson, I can suggest to you that Mr. Lamoureux: I have likely a number of the foregoing is not a paltry accomplishmentof the questions, andwe could probably go on for a few government on a matter so new as the multicultural hours with Mr. Eddy andsome of the commentshe policy of May 15, 1990. This achievement doesnot has put on the record. Unfortunately, because we come from a government which has a lukewarm have so many presenters, and we do want to hear commitment to multiculturalism. Rather this all the presenters. I know I will be given more successcomes from a government that is zealously opportunities to sit down at different functions with pursuing thepolicies set forth in the act. Mr. Eddy where we can furtherexplore some of the comments that he has put on the record this What I am about to say is personal, Mr. Acting evening. Chairperson. From a personal point of view, while criticism has a value in society and sometimes In short, Mr. Eddy, one ofthe things that you are brings aboutchange, that which is groundless and asking thiscommittee to do, all three political parties offered only for thatsake is worthlessin my opinion, to do, is to put into legislation the whole concept of that the government should not be dissuaded by multicultural grants and the appointments or those fitting the description that I have just politicization of what maybe you might not perceive described. We read some of these in the printed as politicization but what many do believe is media and hear a number of the same things from politicizatlon. disgruntled individuals, some of which you have I think it is important that I acknowledge your heard this evening. background and the things that you have In the media, we often find those which suggest contributed and the goals that no doubt you that government by itself be the embodiment of establish for yourself and so forth, but it is also multiculturalism but, Mr. Acting Chairperson, in important to realize that other communities, other fairness, theconstant use of the word "partnership" groups such as the Manitoba Intercultural Council in government literature and multiculturalism also had individuals such as yourself who donated indicates a simple fact. That fact is awareness that of their time and made the decisions that were multicultural policy will succeedonly, and I underline necessary In order to distribute the multicultural the word "only," in co-operation between citizens funding. In essence,I think that thereare really two and the legislators. issues when it comes to multicultural funding. 209 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

Mr. Eddy: Excuse me. Would you ask your Mr.Lamoureux : Well, Mr. Chairperson, you know question? What is the question? the minister has often told me that we are going to * (2210) have to agree to disagree,and I think this is one area that Mr. Eddy and myself will have to agree to Mr.Lamoureux: There arereally twoissues. The disagree with. first issue is: Do you supportmulticultural grants? 1 think that you will find thatall three political parties I would suggest to you that the MIC also had a in this Chamber support multicultural grants. process in which it could have gone through, and a process which could have been changed if concerns The second issue is theway in which those grants were brought to their attention. In fact, there are are distributed. You will find that there is some reports, the Auditor's report, that makes reference conflict in thisarea. Right now it is currently through to a number of the changes that should have the appointment of a minister where the occurred, that suggested that in fact the Manitoba chairperson, and you happen to be the chairperson Intercultural Council should have been the body thistime around, for the Manitoba Grants Advisory solely responsible for thedistribution of multicultural Council, which is completely made up of individuals grants and so forth. So both have a process. selected from the minister. Now, previously it was selected through the Manitoba Intercultural Council, I am convinced that if I put it to the people that 1 and I do not think I need to let you know how the will find overwhelming supportof thosethat say yes MIC came out into its being and how grants were to multicultural grants will take a board that is based handed outat thattime. on community representatives,that are electedfrom within and then appointed, than in a board that is I if am wondering you believe thatthe public as a selected and chosen, because, whether through whole, if they had a choice to have a politically your chairmanship or not, the integrity or the appointed body hand out multicultural grants as perception is still wrong. opposedto community-elected individuals from the different ethnic groups handing out thegrants, who You might choose to feel that what you are doing do you think in all honesty would the public say a or as thechairperson of thatparticular organization yes to. Which one do you thinkthey would say yes that there is nothing wrong that is occurring. You to? might feel thatas an individual, butI can assure you that other individuals do not feel thatand thatthere Eddy: Mr. In your preamble, where with thevenom was anotherprocess, but again, you and I no doubt that maybe you have introducedinto thatstatement, will have ample opportunity in which we can go at- maybe people polarize to what you have just said, butmy feedback in thecommunity is that people will Mr. Eddy: I was about to ask the Acting polarize toward the Multicultural Grants Advisory Chairperson if I was here to be lectured or to have Council. Someof thethings that you say about the questions posed at me. I was just waiting for the Multicultural GrantsAdvisory Councilhave not been question. I did not come here to be lectured, I came said from a framework of knowledge. to make a presentation and to answer questions based on my presentation. I rule you out of order, The Multicultural Grants Advisory Council, and really. you can check it out-it is not only my opinion-is a very empirical body. There are criteria which we Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I guess have to follow. Applicationshave to be processed, at times I do exercise myself somewhat and want to andas a matterof fact, I have never come across a try to persuade other individuals to come along the board, and I have sat on many boards, that is so same thinking as I do, no doubt like the presenter objective in handing out these grants. There is no himself. I will get right to a specific questionand that political interference. You either fit the criteria or is in regard to the community access officewhere it you do not. Right? You have people on that board, says that theminister may establish an office. although I am not speaking for them, but just like I would ask Mr. Eddy, as a private citizen, ifin fact how you go around and you work crowds and you the word "may• is something that should even be get things from people, they belong to parties that there? Could you not have the minister "will" have different political ideology. I mean, I think you establish an office? By sayingthe word"may", what are living in a world of fantasy. you are doing is you are saying, well, if the minister June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 210

wants one she can have one, orhe can have one, Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Eddy, what do you think of the or theycan decide not to have one. policy section of thisact? What is the purpose of that word even being in Mr.Eddy: I think it is excellent. I think it is good. there? Would he not agree with me? Ms. Cerllll: Are you satisfied that it truly Mr. Eddy: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I do not agree incorporates a specific commitment to some of with you. I am nota grammarian, No. 1, andNo. 2, those initiatives that you agreed are essential or I put in my presentation here that I personally have necessary to creating a multicultural society? the greatest confidence in the minister and her Mr. Eddy: Yes, I do. I said earlier on that this act department,that if she wants to use the word, "may" is a base line. You know like when you do a base it is okay with me. line study, ifyou do not have an act you cannotmake Mr. Lamoureux: I guess that is partof the reason any changes. You know, life does not follow a why I feel that it is somewhat necessary to let the straight line. There are curves. You go up and chairperson of MGAC know that whatever the down. minister says, does not have to be, that there are When you are comparing the Multicultural Grants other ideasout there that the chairperson of MGAC Advisory Council, like Mr. Lamoureux said before, does not necessarily have to follow. I think it is- we are not here to divide the community. I have The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Order, friends who are in the MIC, you know. We get please. I would remind all members that you are along. We have people in thecommunity generally. here to ask questions of the presenters for We are not here to make enemies, butpeople have clarification, and I would ask the honourable to be objective. member to ask his question now, please. .. (2220) Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Chairperson, again, You have to start somewhere, and the minister because I do want to go on to hearing more shouldbe given a lot of accoladesin havingstarted presenters, I will leave it at that and thank the here. member for coming forward to make his In the future, as thesecommunity leaders seethe presentation. I look forwardto seeing him at future need for change, you add the changes. Do you functions. Thank you. know what I mean? Exponentially, this is what Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Eddy, do you think that the happens. government has a responsibility in trying to create a Ms.Cer llll: Mr. Eddy, do you not wish that we did more equitable and truly multicultural society, that not have to move in suchteeny, tiny steps when we they have a responsibility to support policies like are trying to create equity? education in the schools that is going to deal with racism, that they need to ensure that various Mr. Eddy: You will excuseme for mispronouncing cultures have the right to promote andthe ability and your name, Ms. Cerilli. I would say that you look resources to promote their language, that there be fairly young to me. a policy that supports employmentequity? Do you When I came to this country, what is happening think thatthose things are necessary if we are going now has improved a thousandfold. I am talkingfrom to have a more equitable society? experience. Maybe. you just graduated from Mr. Eddy: I do not know if you were listening university or high school or something, but I am closely to my presentation. I would have to go over talking about, when l first came here, there was the notes there that theMinister of Education (Mrs. nothing. This is an improvement. You see, people Vodrey) together with the Minister of are just coming like they were blown in in the last Multiculturalism (Mrs. Mitchelson) have taken some shower of rain, and they have a negative speech of those things that you have mentioned into pattern. That is what I am picking up, a negative account, some of the things that you have just speech pattern. expressed concern aboutas stated in the act. But, Thereis an improvement; it is not perfect. I would of course, some of these things will have to betaken be a fool to stand up and here and tell you that there into account. Equality, I mentioned it in the is not racism. Is that what you want me to say? But presentation, pride, equality and partnership. Did I we have come, and the step-by-step progression answeryour question on that? methodis operational now. Ithas been actualized, 21 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

and now it is operational. We move from here, and Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I feel we go forward, not to be always criticizing. compelled just to make a few comments, Mr. Eddy. The minister and her staff did not have to put in I guess I wanted to ask you whetheryou were aware all the countless hours and devote all the energy that and maybe ifyou might comment on a situationthat she has donetoward our cause, and I am speaking happenedwhen the NDP were in fact in power. The as a visible minority. You are not defending me. I then-minister Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels politically mean, I can defend myself. I am the one who is out interfered very blatantly with the Manitoba there walking the streets as a visible minority. If I Intercultural Council, because what normally had an opportunitythere with Mr. Lamoureux, I am happens is that they recommend to government telling you, the feedback that I am getting in the whom the chairpersonshould be. At thetime, when community is that people prefer the way in which in she was theminister, they didnot take the Manitoba we hand outthe grants from the Multicultural Grants Intercultural Council's recommendation, but In fact Advisory Council. they brought someone else in who had not been a part of the Manitoba Intercultural Council to be the But I am nothere to criticize MIC. I am not going chairperson. to give you the feedback. But people are pleased because it is done fairly. It is not 100 percent. I do not know, maybe I couldjust ask you whether, When we come across negatives, we feed these throughout the community-because I know that things up the line. when I did become minister, there was a terribly negative feeling among the Manitoba Intercultural Ms.Cerll ll: One final question, Mr. Eddy. Do you Council members for the blatant politicizationof the think the governmenthas a responsibility to consult Manitoba Intercultural Council by the former members of, in this case, the ethnocultural administration. I just would liketo ask you whether community from outside its political party when it is you were aware of thatand whether you might want developing policy and programs? Do you thinkthat to comment on that. it should make sure that itsconsultation is broad? Mr.Eddy: Yes, I am very much well aware of that. Mr. Eddy: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, I agree with you 1 00 percent, but theminister did exactly what you As I have said before, I think that when people say have just asked. these kinds of things and throw these negative things towards the act, it is just a matter of game Ms.Cer llll: Do you not feel that that requirement playing, because it has been done, what you have shouldbe embodiedin legislation that is going to try said jn the past. and ensure that that happens? Point of Order Mr. Eddy: Are you going to embody everything? Do you need a person to wash your face, tell you Ms. Cerllll: On a point of order, Mr. Acting when to wash your face andgo to the thing? Do you Chairperson, I do not think it is game playing, to knowwhat I mean? We are notkids, you know. clarify-that asking that affirmative action be No further questions? Mr. Lamoureux, do you included in a multicultural actis game playing. have another one? Mr.Eddy: Who said that? I did not say that. I did Mr.Santos: I have one question, Mr. Chairperson. not say what you just said. I mean, you are putting As chairman of thegovernment Multicultural Grants words into my mouth. How did that come about? Advisory Council and an appointee of the The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): It was government, do you feel that you are in a difficult not a point of order, Ms. Cerilli. situation in that you cannot but say anything which *** is favourable to the government? Mr. Eddy: Obviously, I would empathize with you Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you, Mr. Eddy. because you really do not know me that well, but I The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): just happen to be appointed. Is it a negative to be Thank you, Mr. Eddy. Thank you very much for your belongingto a certainpolitical ideology? You know, presentation and answering the questions. ifyou were to be real and be honest, ifyour party is in power, you are going to appoint people. I mean, The committee will call now Mr. Jock Lowe. Mr. you all are not modern-dayJesuses. Jock Lowe not here. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 212

Mr. Osmond Anderson. Do you have a MMRC has stated that the act should provide a presentation to distribute? framework to remove racial and systemic Mr. Osmond Anderson (Manitoba Multicultural discriminationand toachieve reductionin prejudice, Resources Centre Inc.): Yes, Mr. Acting that the act should make a definite commitment to Chairperson. I think it is already distributed. establish processes and structures to achieve harmonious ethnocultural and race relations, that The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Please modification should be made to the legal justice proceed, Mr. Anderson. system to make the spread of hate propaganda Mr. Anderson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, members illegal, that the actshould provide equityin the Civil of the committee, my name is Osmond Anderson, Service and to make contract compliance and I am very delighted to be here to make this compulsory for business andcorporations that do presentation on behalf of the Manitoba Multicultural business with the government, that the act should Resources Centre. contain a commitment to Affirmative Action programs which would plan and develop training I am pleased at this time to congratulate the that will bring the disadvantaged into the main Honourable Bonnie Mitchelson, the Minister of stream of employment in Manitoba, thatthe program Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, on the tabling of shouldinclude trainingin eitherof bothof theofficial Bill 98 on June 10, 1992, in the Manitoba House. In languages through the ESL, FSL programs, that the our opinion, it is a genuine actionin the fulfillmentof the promise of the multicultural act of Manitoba as act should provide provisions for the training of presented in the throne speech of May 18, 1989. Manitoba teachers in multicultural education on techniques. Some may say that four years is a long time to Theseconcepts andcomponents can be included fulfill a promise, but MMRC has no issue with that in the act by simple amendmentsin the future. time frame. The act itself is very broad in scope. Apparently, there are no precedents regarding Mr. Acting Chairperson, ladies and genUemen, I multicultural acts in Manitoba, and only time can thank the committee for allowing me to appear measure its application and its effectiveness. before you on behalf of MMRC, and we definitely hope that these recommendations that I present MMRC is particularly pleased with the preamble before you this afternoon will be considered as of theact. In particular,the preamble highlights the improvement to the act. We sincerelyhope that you importance of the multicultural historyof Manitoba. will findthem very useful. It legitimizes the multicultural reality by declaring that multiculturalism is a characteristic of the The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Mr. province. Anderson, thank you very much. Would you entertainquestions from thecommittee? .. (2230) Mr.Anderson : Yes, sir. MMRC request that the preservation of culture and heritage be included in Section 2 of the act. Ms. Cerllll: Thank you, Mr. Anderson, for your Reason: MMRC's primary mandate states that we presentation. I appreciate the specific nature of seek to preserve and promote ourrich multicultural your proposals. I am wonderingif you would like to heritage and to facilitate multicultural understanding see those amendments this time around while we and activities in our community. Therefore, we are considering this bill right now. We have a strongly recommend that financial support should chance through this committee for amendments, be provided to organizations like MMRC, which afterwe hear all the presentations,if you would like provides service to the community and promotes to see them included as much as possible this time harmonious relationships between ethnocultural around. communities. Mr. Anderson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, that is my We have said before, the act includes a recommendation. I would like to say, though, with framework that invites amendments. MMRC, on a little bit of modification, I see the multicultural act numerous occasions, has presented advice as an organic structure growing and improving with regarding the inclusion of elements which would time. I think we should prepare it, without any kind strengthenor include in the act. of partisanship, recognizing the very importance of 213 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

thisact, the firstact which, as I said before, has been multicultural policy does have those specific very long in coming. commitments, and I have some material here that I would be very, very disappointed if we look at highlights it, that talks about, federal institutions this as a completion in itself, but we all should join shall ensure thatCanadians of all origins have equal together to make sure that this thing growand grow opportunity to obtain employment advancement in organically to incorporate all the problems that it institutions, that they will make use of language shouldsolve. We have quite a number ofproblems. skills and cultural understanding of individuals of all So what I am appealingfor is for co-operation, good origins, which points to things like the accreditation sense,reasonableness in allowing thisthing to grow issue. so it can accede and really respond to the .. (2240) expectations,the expectationof all Manitobans. I guess I just want some indication of, how Ms. Cerllll: I agree with the sentiments of your important do you think it is that these kinds of things comments that you would like to see this done in an be included now and if you have had any nonpartisanway. Unfortunately,the structure of our conversationswith any individuals, with the minister political system in this province and the country is perhaps, who are going to give us some confidence very partisanat thetime being, and although many that these things are going to be included at some of us, I think, would like it to be different, we are recent time, at some time soonin the future, perhaps forced ofteninto thestructure that existsand we try when the review of MIC is completed-! am not to work as bestwe can to move away from that. sure-ff you have had any kinds of indications that I am hoping, through discussions that we have there will be amendments to this effect in the near had with the minister, that there will be some future. amendmentsconsidered. I was encouragedduring Mr. Anderson: Yes, Mr. Chairperson. Estimates, when I asked the minister about an Indications-you want indications that they will be amendment to this act to include all of the policy, the included in the near future. I have none of those government's own policy on multiculturalism, into indications. What I am saying and what I am hoping the policy section of the legislation, that she was for-now this act is very broad in its scope. I have going· to considerthat. said that. You know my record in race relations I am wonderingif youare familiar with the policy here, andwhether it is this government or any other statement that thegovernment has put forward that government, what the difficulty is, is always a lack did have a direct commitmentto thingslike language of political will in many cases whenwe start dealing training for newcomers, that had a commitment to with multiculturalism or race relations orthat kindof heritagelanguage services, that had a commitment thing. to employment equity, ifyou would also endorsethat If there is good will, I am saying if there is good kind ofan amendment for this act. will, the act is so broadin scope that it gives you and Mr.Anders on: Ms. Cerilli, I am quite aware ofwhat me and everyone a tremendous facility for is embodied in that policy paper. I am very, very interpretation of multiculturalism within the act. If aware, and I want to say, whether the intention is we could interpret those things with time, usually clean andclear, I thinkis referred or alluded to under with time, timely interpretation and have this the Section 1, under minister in the act, where it implementationtaking place with change, with time, refers in a very definite way to the policy, not very I could see the adjustment taking place very-well clearly stated. I wouldhave to agree with you that, can I use the term •accurately"?-more accurately you know,governments go and governments come, with the growth of society than now. and theintention of an act like this, definitely, I would But let me answer the question. For myself like to see some of those things stated very, very personally, yes, I would like to see them as quickly, clearly, the expectations, so that whether they can as soon as possible, but my preference, with be interpreted todayor tomorrow or nextyear, there enough political goodwill, with the scopeof the act, should be no problem with these things. I hope I I would really like to see this thing take its own time have answered your question. to grow and grow properly and grow well, adjusting Ms.Cer llll: Yes. Further to that, I am just wanting itself to problems that we must solve as we move to indicate that the Canadian federal government on, because this is an organic society that is June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 214

changing all the time, and I cannot see howanyone a comparison, to make a determinationfor you, so could sit down and write this act to adjust specifically I think I amgiving a littlecop-out here but, tobe frank, to all the problems that we are goingto have in this as chairman of the Manitoba Multicultural Resource country in the next 20, 25 years. So I have my Centre, my board has not given enough sympathies. consideration to this question in order for me to give you an affirmative or a no, so I prefer not to answer Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, to Mr. this directly, and I am sorry. Anderson, orbetter yet I should say O.T., as I know he much prefers to be called. I was interested in Mr. Lamoureux: Fine, Mr. Acting Chairperson, reading through your report, O.T., that there were a and I can appreciate, as I say, why it might put you number of recommendations that you have brought In a bit of an awkward position, but I can say that I forward, and all of them,of course, no doubt interest know he has the support and respect of all three all of us at thistable. political parties inside this Chamber as everyone else, no doubt, to some degree that makes I looked in terms of the one where you make presentation before the committee, but would modifications to the legal and justice system to encouragehim to talk to all, in particular tothe critics make the spread of hate propaganda illegal. I think and to the minister withthat respect in terms of what that Is one of the amendments that we might, in fact, his personal opinion as opposed to the resource be able to see to this particularact quite possibly. I center's opinion is on it. think, no doubt, as you had pointed out yourseH, that this is a starting point, and I would concur that we I wanted to ask one final question with respect to now have a multicultural act, In which in the future the Manitoba Intercultural Council. That is, as I had no doubt we will see amendments and, like you, I pointed out earlier, do you feel, or does the resource too would be disappointed if in fact thisis thelast we centre have an opinion as to, the role of the ever see or hear ofany changes to the multicultural Manitoba Intercultural Council, in thesense-should act, because I think it is through timethat we will find it be in a multicultural act or is it sufficient to make out how effective the act actually is and where it is reference in The MulticulturalismAct to a Manitoba that we can improve theact. Intercultural Council act, or does it really matter? I notice, as I say, that you brought forward Mr.Anderson : I think I am going to have to give a recommendations In terms of what you as little bit ofhistoric perspectiveon this. I want you to representing the Manitoba Multicultural Resource understand that I have an implicit interest in the Centre feel is necessary in order to make this a Intercultural Council. The Intercultural Council was better act. Is thereanything that youmight say, and born one Saturday afternoon in the Casa ltalia I do notwant to drag you into a political thing here, where 12 of us were sitting. We sold the idea and but I would ask, is there anythingthat you would like we saw it grow and move along to its present state. to see out of the current act? In particular I am I want you to understand that. I have special looking, of course, at the Grants Advisory Council. interest in the Intercultural Council. Do you feel that it is necessaryto have that put into Time has changed and so the Intercultural the legislation? Again, I do not want to put you into Council has changed. There was needfor a review a political spot here, so you can feel free to answer of the act, and I think many attempts have been that question directly or not. made for reviewing the act. As one person said, it Mr. Anderson: Mr. Chairperson, I could have would have been very nice to have the act of the written that question down before I came here. I Intercultural Council reviewed in time for the was almost sure that was going to be asked from publication of that act, with the review incorporated Kevin. in the act. Well, fortunately or unfortunately, it has not been done, but a good intention has been Yes, it is a political nightmare for me, and I am not expressed that the act will be reviewed. We hope going to give you a straight answer. I am going to the review will be very objective. be very, very, very fairwlth you. I have seen the two bodies function in time addressing the same Frankly, it is my opinion that whatever comes from problem and, at this time, I have not really given a that review will be enough. I said the act is flexible heck of a lot of consideration to see the enough, it is broad in scope, to absorb new ideas, effectiveness of how both bodies function to make new concepts, new facts and new structures. I 215 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

hope thatthe act will takecare of that when it comes. Anderson for his presentation and co-operation in I guess, we just have to have a little bit ofpa tience. answering the questions. Thank you very much, I know oneof the questions I am gettingall thetime, Mr. Anderson. shouldwe have it in now. Mr. Steve Ashton {Thompson): Yes, Mr. Acting I do appreciate thatwe want to have that, but I Chairperson, before we proceed further, I notethat guess, in my opinioi'Hhave worked in multicultural we are getting fairly late in the evening. We have affairs for nearly two decades and it is not the had some discussionsamongst House leaders, and easiest system to work in. Nor can you predict what there has been an agreement to call a meeting of it should betomorrow. I would like to say, though I the committee tomorrow. would want to see it now, that we be reasonable I am wondering if, in order to assist members of enough to look at some of these things, because thecommittee, if we might canvassthose who wish whatever we are building now is not to serve us now to make presentations tonight if at all possible,and but tomorrow, next week, next year, probably ten those who might be available tomorrow because, in years from now. looking at the clock, I know that we do not want to We should build it strongly. We should build it sit to too unreasonable an hour, but I am sure the firmly. We should be reasonable in whatfJver wedo. committee would like to accommodate in whatever I know I have been over some of these things, and shape or form , bothtonight and tomorrow as well, in my patienceis notvery longand deep. Ask my wife; terms of listening to the public. she can tell you that. I guess in some of these Also therehas beendiscussion-! have discussed things, we have to be a little bit more cool in our this with the minister and amongst members of the temperament and let reason flow. committee, not to proceed with clause-by-clause Could I just move back to one question, Kevin, tonight anyway, so we would be in a position to which you slid offwithout asking me? I would like continue public hearings which I think is of concern to answer it since the Attorney General (Mr. to all members of the committee,to make sure that McCrae) is sitting here. It has to relate to hate everybody has the chance to make their literature and hate propaganda in our community. presentation. This .is a serious business in the multicultural Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Ashton and I have had an society. In my opinion, hate literature and hate opportunityto talk, and I guesswhat we want to do propaganda hastwo layers to it. It is comingfrom a is ensure that those who have signed up to make layer that is up there and superior down to a layer presentations have the opportunity to be heard. I which is somewhatinferior. think we are prepared to stay as late as we need to, In my opinion, this is one area in themulticultural to hear those who want to be herethis evening, but spectrum, in the act, where I believe legal remedies we do want to indicate that if you would prefer to are neededand possible. Itis notgoing to be easy come back in the morning to have your presentation to determine what that legal remedy is goingto be, heard, that we would be willing to accommodatethat but I think we should spend a good time looking at also. it so we could have that incorporated in the act. I I think it is a matterof personal preference. If we think that we have suffered toomuch. Somepeople have to stay here longer to accommodate you so are taking too great an advantage of people who are you do not have to come back, that is fine,and if you not able to help themselves. do want to come back in the morning, we will * (2250) accommodate that too. I wonder what the best process would be, and maybe we need to confer to I know that Mr. Trachtenberg is here also-there see whether we go through the list and see how he Is-and we have worked on this together. We have sympathies and we understand that this is a many people are here and ask them whether they serious problem within our community. I hope, I want to make a presentation tonight or tomorrow? I do not know what the process should be. really hope, thatyou, Mr. Minister, will look at it with a very, very dear and important approach. If a (Mr. Chairperson in the Chair) committee is warranted, I am willing to serve. Mr. Ashton: Perhaps if we could ask the Mr. Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): There committee Clerk to canvass the members of the being no furtherquestions, I would like to thank Mr. public who are here tonight as to whether they would June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 216

like to present tonight or if they are available needs of language groups to all levels of tomorrow. We could perhaps begin the next government. MAPAl continues to promote and presentation, and perhaps ask the Clerk in the supportthe study of heritage and world languages meantime, or did you want to adjourn? as both an economic and cultural tool. Through Mr. Chairperson: Could I ask that there be a activities such as public education, outreach and general show of hands as to those who would want information sessions, MAPAl strives to foster a to present tonight? Could you indicate by hand? better understanding of the importance of How many would want to come back tomorrow? multicultural education in today's society and to We have five that would like to come back secure such an understanding for Canada's future tomorrow, and the rest we will hear tonight ifthat is generations. the will of the committee. Thank you. We will have It was therefore a great honour and pleasure for a five-minute recess, and then we will return. representatives of MAPAl to meet with the Ms. Cerllll: I want to ensure thatthe Clerk will get Honourable Bonnie Mitchelson, Ministerof Culture, the names of the people who are going to come Heritage and Citizenship, on May 5, 1992, in order tomorrow, and we would get that information. to convey our concerns and needs regarding the

*** hewly formed Multiculturalism Act; that is, Bill 98. Upon meeting with the minister, MAPAl's table The committeetook recess at 10:55 p.m. officers were able to stress their view on the importanceof language as a common denominator. After Recess By promoting heritage and world language The committee resumed at 11:03 p.m. education in this province, the community is able to Mr.Chairpers on: Could thecommittee come back commit itself to the growth of many individual to order. cultures. With this commitment comes the growth of a society which is diverse and yet unified. Such Mr. Done Tole and Ms. Brenda Kass, Executive a diversity within unity is one of this province's Initial Director of the Manitoba Association for the founding principles and thus can only add to our Promotion of Ancestral languages, would you e growth. come forwardplease . Mr. Tole, hav you a printed presentation that you want to distribute? Thank Upon receiving a copy of TheMulticulturalism Act you. Will you proceed, please. in writing, along with the Honourable Bonnie Mr. Done Tole (Executive Director, Manitoba Mitchelson's speaking notes from the second Association for the Promotion of Ancestral reading of the act, MAPAL's executive members Languages): Mr. Chairperson, members of the were able to review the content and thewording of committee, the presentation that I am going to read the act during an executive meeting. The executive tonight is on behalf of the Manitoba Association for was in agreement that The Multiculturalism Act the Promotion of Ancestrallanguages. Ms. Brenda expressed the truth about the purpose of Kass, our Executive Director, is not present this multiculturalism In thisprovi nce. We were content evening. that the act showed the need for multicultural It is oftendifficult to definea multicultural society education for all Manitobans as a means for since it is a unique and advanced concept. The combatting prejudice and racism. We were also future successof Manitoba as a multicultural society pleased to see the roles of the minister of depends on the contributions of its ethnic multiculturalism and the Multiculturalism Secretariat communities and its entire population in terms of definedin the actin order to providea clearer picture language and culture. As the Honourable Bonnie to Manitobans as to how this act will becarried out. Mitchelson stated in her address to the legislative We felt that the Multicultural Grants Advisory Assembly, multiculturalism is partof our identity. It Council, also defined in the act, should be sensitive helps define who we are. to the needs of this province's ethnocultural The Manitoba Association for the Promotion of communities and be flexible in providing greatly Ancestral languages Inc. was formed in 1983 to needed financial assistance for multicultural promote and encourage the enhancement of programs and education. This financial support is heritage languages and to represent the common crucial for Manitoba's ethnocultural communities 217 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

due to the recent funding cutbacks from the Ms.Cer llll: This is one of theconcerns I have about provincial government. the legislation, is that this is only under the Finally, we were particularly in support of the Multiculturalism Secretariat,and that this secretariat wording ofThe Multiculturalism Actwhich stresses does not have any granting authority over funding theimportance multiculturalismof in all communities for heritage language. By simply having a clause in and includespeople from all religions, cultures and therethat says that thesecretariat is to encourage races. It is thehope of theManitoba Association for the development or theuse of heritage languages-! the Promotionof Ancestral Languages Inc. that The could read specificwording-but the concern is that Multiculturalism Act becomea strongand vital force this is not a strong commitment on behaH of the within the province of Manitoba in order to provide governmentto continue to fund heritage language Manitobans with a strong base on which to build a programs, especially outside of the Department of bright future for ethnocultural relations and Education. multiculturalism as a whole. On behalf of the Currently, you are probably aware, we no longer membership of MAPAL, I offer our support forThe have funding for heritage language programs, for Multiculturalism Act in the hope that it will be community-based programs. The only programs proclaimed and carry out that which .is its true that exist now are through the schools. I am purpose in Manitoba. Thank you. concerned and I am wondering if you share my * (2310) concern that we could not have a stronger commitment in this act to funding heritage language Mr.Chairpers on: Thank you, Mr. Tole. Are there programs. any questions? Mr. Tole: I wanted to refer to the fact-you made Ms.Cer llll: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairperson, and reference to the fact that the only heritage language thank you, Mr. Tole for making your presentation programs that are offered are those through the and sticking it out with us here tonight. The schools. This is not correct, Ithink. We have many presentations that people are making are very supplementaryschools which are community based important. We are going to seriously look at and community supported. amendmentstomorrow. The wording for the encouragement of heritage I wanted to ask you if you are aware that the language education on the part of the secretariat, I federal government's multicultural policyincludes a feel thatthe encouragement is necessary,although specific policy section that refers to heritage I realize that funding is not tied in with it, and funding language. can even read it: It is hereby declared I is an important aspect to us, and certainly funding to be a policy of the Government of Canada to of our supplementary schools is important. preserve and enhance the use of languages, other than English and French, while strengthening the Mr. Chairperson: I want to remind committee statusand use of official languages in Canada. members that we are not here to try and impose our thinkingor our will on the presenters. We are here I am wondering if you are aware that there is a to listen to the presenters and listen to their government policy at the federal level, a specific suggestions for the bill and their presentations of the commitment to those kindsof programs. bill, and we are here to question them on their Mr.Tole: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, I am aware of that presentations, so I would remind members that we and I also supportthat idea. keep our direction fairly clear. Ms.Cer llll: Wouldyou supportthat kind of specific Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Chairperson, I appreciate the wording in our Manitoba policy? clarification. There has been a decrease in the Mr.Tole: The way we have studiedit so far, we feel funding for those programs and there is no longer a thatthis is already implied in the Manitoba act, as it separate funding or granting program to fund those reads now. programs, and I understand that there have been a number of communities that have had trouble Ms.Cer llll: Can you clarify for me which sectionof maintaining their programs. My concern is that we the act indicates that to you? could have a stronger policy commitment similar to Mr.Tole: At thelate nessof thehour and nothaving how we could have a stronger commitment to the act in front of me, no, I cannot. employment equity programs, to ensuring that ESL June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 218

is provided. All ofthose kinds of things couldbe put and they concept is irrelevant and is inconsistent into the policy section ofthe act. with our present-day society in Manitoba. I am wondering if you have any other 4. This brings me to the fourth point and that is recommendationsfor the legislation of areas of the that our multicultural society is viewed as a single act that should be deleted, if any of the other society, united by shared laws, aspirations and presentations that you have heard tonight have responsibilities. Common and shared values in the impressed upon you in that way. multicultural context are also verystri kingand are In linewith what I have brought out inone of my articles Mr. Tole: Nothing that I could refer to at this which is also attached. Even thoughindivid ually we moment, no. are all different, and that makes this life spicy, Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Tole, for your interesting, as well as challenging, yet collectively presentation. we are all one as human beings. The next presenter is Dr. ljaz Oamar. Have you This phenomenon prompted me to hold a public a writtenpresentation for distribution? symposium just last week on "Unity and Diversity: Dr. IJaz Qamar (PrivateCitize n): Yes, I have. Cultural Understanding and Racial Harmony". In previous years I have organized symposia dealing Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Oamar, would with issues of combatting racism, empowerment of you proceed, please? women and human rights. In most of these public Mr. Qamar: First of all, I would like to make clear events members on both sides of this committee that I am appearing this evening as a private citizen, have participatedand they knowvery well what I am because on different days I wear different hats. talking about. Sometimes I wear different hats during even one With these thoughts, I fully support this bill. day. In themorning I have one hat, In the afternoon However, I mustsay that thisbill is a human product a different hat, sothis is my appearance as a private and is not an act of God, andtherefore expecting citizen. perfection will be asking too much, too soon. I am very much enthused about Bill 98. My Therefore, I have some suggestions. enthusiasm is based on a number of factors: In my view what is missing from the act is a 1. This bill contains all elements of Manitoba's specific mechanism to deal with acts of racial policy fora multicultural societyannounced in 1990. discrimination. In my view, specific provisions are Having gone through experiences of intolerance In required against acts of racial discrimination in all my earlier life, that Is, before coming to Canada government institutions and agencies in this about two decades ago, In parts of Africa and in province. This will not onlybe a deterrent against parts of Asia, I was well qualified and personally discriminatory behaviours but will also strengthen tuned In to publicly speak and write in support of this human rightslegislative machineryalready in place policy. I have shared my views through the local in thisprov ince. print media-some of the copies are attached with * (2320) my submission-end through the public symposia I would also propose that a comprehensive race organized by various communities in Winnipeg. and ethnic-relations strategy be designed for 2. Three essential elements of our multicultural Manitoba which will bolster our multicultural policy ideal, that is, pride in cultural diversity, a by providing grounds for a racism-free Manitoba. determination to enhance equality irrespective of For this purpose I propose that a "Di rectorate for religious affiliation, culture and race and a senseof Racial Harmony" be established in the government partnership of all have been Incorporated In the of Manitoba. This will be an innovative name for this proposed act. office. 3. The term •multicultural" is intended in the bill as I know some jurisdictions in Manitoba they have an all-inclusive term. In other words a multicultural an antiracism secretariat, an assistant deputy society encompasses all cultures and not just minister for antiraci sm. I think, in myview, thoseare aboriginal culture, African or Asian culture, reactive titles. I think we should have more subcultures, Anglo-Saxon cultures, et cetera. The proactive titles and more positivetitles. With this, I text Is "our culture", and not mine and thine. The we submit that these suggestions may be incorporated 219 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

in the act. With this, I thank you. I am willing to and doctrineswhich protected my own interests. I answer questions if they are short, brief and to the declared the Queen as the untouchable white point. symbol of colonialism. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Qamar. Are The roots of some of these outlooks rested there questions? undisturbed in the deeper grounds of my childhood Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): I just want to imprinting in another country with a tell Dr. Oamar that his wording in his last line, I do monocultural-oriented society. The multicultural not want to take too much time, but the word, the wisdom in Manitoba widened my horizon and I racial harmony, is probably themost importantthing began recognizing the benefit of the laws that we can do because cultural diversity, which is so protect a majority in the world. importantto all of us, we canonly do by learning and I believe many of our multicolour, multiethnic, caring abouteach other. multicreed mainstream employees of the public, Taking theproactive role and the positive attitude, civil and private sectors need to say yes, to such a in my view, what I have seenhere in this building for straightening process as well. Canadians showed the last five years, I think, that is the mostbeneficial. me that the Queen of England is the symbol of a I think we should consider your suggestion very government whichis open to criticism and has the carefully and in a very positive manner. strength to change. Hence, multicultural wisdom in Mr. Qarnar: Thank you. our society triggered in me a process of straightening which, I suppose, will continueas long Mr.Chairperson : Thank you, Mr. Qamar, for your as I live. presentation. I believe that I am one of a majority group of the The committee calls Mr. Joseph Reza Fanai. contemporary refugees and that the same spirit Have you a presentationto distribute? manifested throughout Bill 98 will trigger similar Mr.Joseph Reza Fanal(Private Citizen) : Yes. process in others. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. Would you I would like to refer to this article in the Winnipeg proceed, Mr. Fenai? Free Press from Monday, June 15, 1992. The Mr.F enal: My encounterswith mosaica of people Winnipeg Free Press article, fear for jobs mutes in a challenging journey through life increased my criticism of act, is a reason for delight in spite of it understanding of racism, discrimination and more discouraging voice. It reflects the supremacy. I believe these are commonstrate gies communities attention to one of the most for defending self-gratifying objectives, and their world-oriented steps of their society. destructive power stands in reverse proportion to The Canadian relatively unlimited opportunityfor the awareness of theirexistence in even the most criticism gives me greater piece of mind for tolerantpersons. supporting thisbill unconditionallybecause criticism I believe the essence of Bill 98 promotes such fuels theprocess of perfection in democracy. Part awareness. I feel it has addressed the present of the article reflectsan expectationfor having great need of our Canadian-Manitoban multicultural achievements offered in golden plates. History is society in an unbiased and committed manner. decorated richly with courageous people who What I supportthe most in this bill is itsfoundation sacrificed their lives for bringing about changeswe on the human similarities. The intelligence in this have inherited. Losing a job for saying what one bill promotes also the understanding of human believes is not the highest price one pays for differences which will lead tothe discove ry of further multicultural democracy which does not kill but similarities. demands ideological courage. My respect for Canadian-Manitoban Being ideologically courageoushas Its ownprice multiculturalism spirit manifested in Bill 98 is risen by degrees. Losing job or grant money is part of out of my own experience in Canada. I arrived here such price. I believe not criticizing for the fear of eight years ago with an outlook warped by all sorts losing job or grant money is the danger to of religious, political,social and economic doctrines. multicultural democracy rather than the I justified my own racist and discriminatory shortcomings of Bill 98. Too much complacency behaviours. For example, I supported only laws affects democracy in the same way too much fat June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 220

affects the heart. Such complacency when of Manitoba, the Manitoba Intercultural Council is challenged may overlook the welfare of a majority pleased that the province is soon to have its first and become like a gun to one's head, even in Multiculturalism Act. We welcome, amongst others, democracy. the recognition of the importance of heritage The brain of this bill Is ofmany coloursand creeds. languagesin theact, as recommendedby the MIC. The sound and deep wisdom of this bill is We also welcome the recognitionof multiculturalism multicultural. It is promoting culture awareness and as a fundamentalcharacteristic of thisprovince. communication. It is repairing damages inflicted It should be pointed out at the outset that upon humanity by colonialismand religiosity. It can multiculturalism acts are a relatively new increase the enriching effect of technology for phenomena in Canada, federally andprovincially. everyone in the world. Neither governments nor the public have had much I believe this bill offers all sorts of potentials for experience with the enactment, implementing and the promotion of multicultural justice needed in the review of these acts; therefore, it is important that world more than bread. To materialize these after the passing of any multiculturalism act, both potentials, the hard and dedicated work in the governments, ethnocultural communities and the creation of this bill mustcontinue forcenturies. I feel multicultural organizations consult with each other no sacrifice is big enough for helping this important continuously and engage in positive exchanges to move continue the processof maturity. perfect the legislation over the coming years. I am finished, Mr. Chairperson. The MIC, as a representative body of all ethnocultural communities in Manitoba, is well Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. suited and prepared to facilitate that dialogue over Fanai. Are there any questions, comments? the coming years. In fact, we welcome it. While the Thank you again for your presentation. council does not want to make the "perfect" the Mr. Ron Schuler of the Manitoba Intercultural enemy of the "good", as Canadians seem to be Council. Mr. Schuler, do you have a prepared doing with our Constitution, it believes that some statement for distribution? amendments will strengthen the government's Mr. Ron Schuler (Manitoba Intercultural positiveintentions and address the aspirations of all Council): In fact, we gave it to the Clerk and they Manitobans. The proposed bill legitimizes the are-it is in two parts. There is an executive existence of the Multiculturalism Secretariat, the summary and the submission. I am sure you will be Multicultural Grants Advisory Council and the pleased to know that I plan on reading the whole community accessoffice. It is not seen as including submission, I mean, the executive summary-just provisions in terms of monitoring accountabilityand joking. evaluation of the act. Mr. Chairperson: Would you proceed then The act also does not include the government's immediately, Mr. Schuler. advisory body, the Manitoba Intercultural Council. With thatin mind, thecouncil recommends that the * (2330) proposed billbe delayed until the role of the MIC can Mr. Schuler: Before I begin, I want to introduce be incorporatedinto the act or the present MIC Act threeIndividuals who are with me here as well today. is amended. It is the vice-chair of the Manitoba Intercultural Council, Wendy Maximilian. I have the executive The council provides the following secretary of the Manitoba Intercultural Council, Mr. recommendations for the committee to consider Sam Koshy, and we have our policy analyst, Mr. when debating the bill in this committee. It should Vijay Sharma. As well, representing anothergroup be notedthat the comments and recommendations but still on the board of the MIC is Ms. Norma made in thispaper are done in a context of previous Walker, and the others have left us. positions taken by the council. Others are natural extensions and logical extrapolations based on As you know, I am Ron Schuler. I am chairman discussions and sentiments held by the council. I of the board for the Manitoba Intercultural Council. refer to Appendix 2, possible questions for the Mr. Chairperson, honourable Minister of Culture, committee's consideration are also provided. I will Heritage and Citizenship, members of the not bereading those tonight. They are for yourlater committee, as an advisory body tothe government review. 221 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

At the outset, the council wishes to be on record provisions could be made in other legislations to thatthe recommendationsprovided below are by no enable and ensure the sameintent. means exhaustive or conclusive. To facilitate the 9. Collect statistical data in order to enable the work of the Legislature committee in developing a development of policies, programs and practices comprehensive multicultural policy for the province that are sensitiveand responsive to the multicultural of Manitoba, again some possible questions are reality in Manitoba. The intent was cited from the provided for the committee's considerationsas seen Government ofCanada's Multiculturalism Act. in the appendix. 1. We would like to ask for the delay of the 1 0. Encourage and insist the social, cultural, passage of theact until the role of the MIC can be economic and political institutionsof Manitoba to be incorporated into the act or thepresent MIC Act is both respectful and inclusive of Manitoba's multicultural character. Again the intent has been amended. cited from the Government of Canada's 2. Provide linkages, roles and responsibilities of Multiculturalism Act. the M IC with the Multiculturalism Secretariat and the ACCESS office. Thank you. 3. Amend reference to the Multicultural Grants Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much Mr. Advisory Council as "council" since the MIC is Schuler. Are there any questions? already referred to as the "council" in the MIC Act. Ms.Cer llll: Thank you, Mr. Schuler, for a concise 4. Include the Multicultural Affairs Committee of presentation with very clear recommendations. I Cabinet and the Minister responsible for want to ask you if the recommendations that you Multiculturalism as the chairperson of MACC in the have made were presented to the minister and how act; and that was done since you are the body that is to advise the minister on policy. The chair of the MACC be requiredto table in the Legislature an annual report on the activities and Mr.Schuler: These recommendations have been initiatives of the MACC. made over many years. In fact, I believe some of these recommendations were made to previous 5. With reference to the section onannual report ministers, not just to this minister. There are in the act, amend the clause to include the MGAC recommendations that were done in writing and along with the Multiculturalism Secretariat. were done verbally. 6. Provide for the Manitoba Intercultural Council Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Chairperson, with respect to the to be an advocate for its membership, similar to the request for delay of passage ofthe act, do you have mandate provided to the minister, i.e. Section any understanding of why this is not happening? 3(a)-theminister has thepower and authority to: a) act as an advocate within the government to ensure Mr. Schuler: I would love to stand here all night that policies and programs throughout the and speculate, but I do not think I will. I will turn government reflect the multiculturalism policy set down that question. out in Section 2. Ms.Cerll ll: Have you had any indication from the 7. The enforcement and monitoring mechanism ministerthat some of these recommendations will of the act can be strengthened. The appointmentof be included oncethe review of MIC is made? a commissioner of multiculturalism or an Mr. Schuler: Personally, no, seeing as I was on ombudsman are the two mechanisms most often holidays and the minister did not have the recommended by council members. opportunityto speak to me, and I did not have the 8. Include provisions in the act similar to that of opportunityto speak to her. So, no, I couldnot even the federal multiculturalism policy ensuring that answer that question. I am sorry. Canadians (Manitobans) of all origins have equal Ms. Cerllll: From the analysis that MIC has done opportunity to obtain employment and of the bill, what is your current understanding of how advancement in those institutions. The council the legislationwill be enforced? believes that the act should advocate education to improve race relations, i.e., Affirmative Action Mr. Schuler: We believe that the mechanism of program and contract compliance. Alternatively, monitoring the act will be through the annual report. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 222

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, I just had a forwardand the recommendations, as I say, it is very couple of questions I wanted to ask Mr. Schulerand hard to speculate, nor should we really speculate thank him, too, for the presentation, ofcourse, and what the recommendations would be. that is in regard to one of the recommendations to The question, quite specifically, Is: Would MIC, delay the passage of this until Mr. Blair possibly would you as the chairpersonof MIC, recommend-If comes back and gives his recommendations. I can I may put it that way-to the executive thatit would appreciate that after all Mr. Blair might come back be sufficientto see the multicultural act pass in the and recommend that MIC should be distributingthe next couple of days if the minister were to bring in multicultural grants. We really do not know. an amendmentthat would at least acknowledge the One of the questions that I would have for Mr. existence of MIC and possibly give it a couple of the Schuler is with respect to-Mr. Wade Williams had tie-ins in terms of responsibilities? pointed out that one of the things thatwe might want Mr. Schuler: Actually, we have recommended to do is include MIC atleast in part in the multicultural what we have recommended and I will stand by act and leave the Manitoba Intercultural Act as a those recommendations. However, being a realist separate act. Would MIC supportthat? �tnd realizing that you do not get everything you * (2340) want, what you are proposing, and if that is actually Mr.Schuler: I believe there should be a correction what it endsup being, well, I guess thenthat is what there. I think Mr. Williams agrees with the MIC. For we will have to take. instance, if you look at item No. 2, we very clearly But, no, we have established recommendations state that provide linkages, roles and and I would stand by those recommendations. responsibilities of the MIC with the Multiculturalism Secretariat in theaccess office. May I explain. Mr.Lamour eux: Mr. Chairperson, I know if I was to recommend, there were a number ofthings that I We are not saying that the MIC Act should be would recommend, MIC being completely abolished andthat we should just be in the act. In incorporated into theact, thechairperson not being fact, we are not stating that at all. We feel quite appointed from the minister, the executive director comfortable with the MIC Act and the fact that there not being hired from the minister, and so forth. is time for review and changes are going to be made. We have asked for that. In fact, the minister Is But being realistic as the president puts it, or the responding to our request. chairperson putit, I would suggest that if there was Whatwe would like tosee is linkages made. Why some indication from the minister or a possible we asked for the delay is we would like the whole amendment that MIC would be incorporated even in package to be dealt with at the same time. So for some minor way, thatwould at leastput it into the us, it was a natural progression that the review be multicultural act and leave theManitoba Intercultural done and then the changesto the MIC Act and the Act, so hopefully in the next session we could Multiculturalism Act be taken together. That is possibly see theamendments to MIC. I just wanted where we have come up with the linkages under to add those comments and thank Mr. Schuler for item No. 2. his presentation. Mr. Lamoureux: I can appreciate what you are Mr.Schuler: Rrst of all, I was notappointed by the saying, Mr. Schuler, but knowing thatwe want to see minister, I was elected by the community. As a no doubt Bill 98 and given the time period that we matter of fact, on the first ballot out of three I won are actuallyoperating under, I am not too sure if we more than 50 percent. The appointment by the will in fact be able to see the amendments brought minister, it is a custom thatthe minister appoints the forward. I believe that theintent of all three political No. 1 person chosen. parties is to pass Bill 98. Number two, why we did not make all kinds of I guesswhat I am trying to get some sort ofIdea recommendations insofar as what should happen from you is with respect to having or incorporating with the MIC is because that is actually a different an amendmentthat would at least acknowledgethe issue, and I did notthink it was proper to come here existence of MIC andthat MIC has a role. Now we and give you a presentation on the review of MIC could comeback four or five monthsfrom now when because that actually is a different issue. We are there are recommendations that are brought not touching the review of it. 223 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

Mr. Lamoureux, actually we both agree. We are about institutional arrangements and institutional just, I think, going around each other. Item two of processes, the very pattern of taking an authority our recommendations is saying exactly what you from an elected body into an appointed body. Do are saying, is thatwe would like to provide linkages you or do you not accept this as progress or and that is exactly what you are recommending. If retrogression? that, in fact, is what this committee decides, then Mr.Schuler: The previous council of the MIC did may I state on behalf of the MIC, thank you very take some positions on the issue. They presented much. them to the minister, and we have decided, as the Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, just to clarify MIC, that we can continuefighting, or what we can because I do think it is importantthat I dosay some do is progress and do positive things. That has nice things about the minister, and I did commend been this particularboard's decision, that we will do her on changing that aspect ofthe act, ifnot formally, the kinds of positive things like we did about three informally by ratifying an individual who was or four weeks ago in which we had an incredible selected. event dealing with racism. We had members of all levels of government and of the opposition in Mr.Santos : I would like to ask the chairperson of government. I believethat is MIC's role and that is the Manitoba Intercultural Council how he feels MIC's mandate. about the government's action in taking away the fund-granting authority away from an elected body • (2350) like the Manitoba Intercultural Council and then I am sorry, I donot believe it is my positionto delve giving it to an appointed government bodycalled the into the past andget involved with old political fights. Multicultural GrantsAdvisory Council? It has nothingto do with myself. Mr. Schuler: Arst of all, I am not sure it is a wise Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Schuler. I am position to be making comments on things that not going to allow the further discussion of what happenedbefore I was thechairman. But seeing as MIC's role is. I am going to entertainthe discussion the question was presented to myself, you can on what the contents of the bill are. If we have either sit and bemoan the fact that things have further questions on the contents of the bill or happened to you or you can try to findthe positive references to the bill, I will entertain those in it. We believe thatamong the Multicultural Grants discussions. If not, I will proceed and thank Mr. Advisory Council, the Multiculturalism Secretariat, Schuler for his presentation. Thank you. theoutreach office and the MIC that there are a lot Mr. Schuler: If I may make a point of clarification of positive things that can be done and are being on a presentation that was made earlier on today, done in conjunctionwith them. there was a statement made that 65 percent of my I do not think we should necessarily view board are governmentappointees, and I would like everything as being negative,and the factthat that to clarify that. It is actually 28 percent of our board decision was made is in the political realm . We are government appointees, not 65 percent, which have made it a position of our board that when an accurately reflectthe com position of the council. issue like thatenters thepolitical realm, I donot want Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. to get dragged into a debate where that belongs. Schuler. We have a role and a mandate, and the role and The committee now calls Les Latinecz. Is Mr. mandate was created before we were ever given the Latinecz here? funding arm of it. An Honourable Member: He is not here, I do not We are back toour original roleand mandate, and think. we are on a day-to-day basis, doing exactly what we are supposed to be doing, and in fact the minister Mr. Chairperson: He is not here. can attest-and members of the opposition know Is Evelyn Hecht here? what we have been doing in the last couple of We have a presentation from the Winnipeg months, very progressive and positive things. The Jewish Community Council, a presentation to the funding side of it, I am not going to get into that. legislativestand ing committee. Could I ask thatthe Mr. Santos: Mr. Chairperson, I am not talking committee allow this to be entered into Hansard. about particularoccupants positiof ons. I am talking Agreed. Thank you. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVEASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 224

Is Mr. Frank Fiorentino here? He is not here. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. Are there any questionsof Ms. Richard? Mary Richard, is she here ? Mary, have you a presentationto distributeto the committee? Mr.Santos : May I ask ifthis position is authorized by your membership? Ms. Mary Richard (ManHoba Association for Native Languages): No, I do not have a written Ms. Richard: Yes. Mr. Chairperson, yes, it has one. been. We have negotiated, like I say, at the national level. We are on a steering committee that has Would you proceed, please. Mr.Chairpers on: pushed and lobbied ministers. In fact, I have written Ms.Richard: I guess, firstof all, before I go into a ministers in the provincial Legislature who had presentation, I would like a clarification. Bill 98 supported our request that we not be part of The reads as follows : Whereas ManHoba has been a Multiculturalism Act. multicultural society from the time of its original Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Ms. Richard. Are population, the aboriginalpeoples. Does that mean there any further questions? If not, thank you for that we are part of the bill, or are you justrecognizing your presentation. We will then ask Mr. Murray the fact that aboriginal people were here first, in spite Trachtenberg. of what Mr. Green thinks? Mr. Trachtenberg, have you a prepared text for Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, if I might distribution? qualify, the answer that I always use in the Mr. Murray Trachtenberg (The League for communHy is that in fact from the beginning of time Human Rights B'nal Brlth Canada): No, Mr. our aboriginal peoples were multic ultural. They Chairperson, I do not. came from different parts of the country to ManitobEK>rdifferent parts ofthe province. In fact, Mr. Chairperson: Would you proceed, please, they spoke different languages, had different then. customs and different traditions. So what I am Mr. Trachtenberg: Mr. Chairperson, my name is saying is, from the beginning of time,Manitoba has Murray Trachtenberg and I am the Chair of the B'nai been multicultural. Our original peoples who were Brith League for Human Rights, midwest region. here, in my definitionof multiculturalism, means that B'nai Brith is the largest andoldest membership­ because they had different languages, different based Jewish organization in the world and in cultures, different traditions, different customs-that is my definition and our Interpretation as Canada. Its aims are, broadly spea king, social, government ofmulticultur al. philanthropic, fraternal and educational. The League for Human Rights is one part of B'nai Brith Mr.Chairpers on: Ms. Richard, would you please Canada. Itis the arm oragency of B'nai Brith which continue with your presentation? is devotedto the preservation and improvement of Ms. Richard: I guess based on that, and the multiculturalism, the fostering of interfaith, Manitoba Association for Native Languages has intercultural, inter-racial, dialogue, harmony and been involved at the national level withthe national exchanges. committee on language issues and cultural issues. Another important part of the activities of the In fact, we lobbied the federal government to league is the mandate thatwe have from B'nai Brith exclude us from the multiculturalism act of the to seek out,expose andcombat racism, bigotry,and federal government. We have on record as well, we to advocate for the advancement of human rightsof have asked that we not be included in the heritage all Canadians. We achieve that through a number languages bill. of activities including legal intervention, legislative So I guess my request at this point in time, to lobbying and intervention, and education. remain consistent, is that we not be part of this Bill Mr. Chairperson, I see by the hourthat I will have 98,because we are in the process ofdiscussion at the pleasure of addressing the committee both the national level and hopefully at the provincial today and tomorrow. I thank the committee andthe level, that we will be asking for a separate bill and government for that opportunity. Earlier this separate recognition. Therefore, at this point in evening, I had serious doubts if I would be able to time, Mr. Chairperson, I would ask that we not be attend,and I thoughtabout it for a few moments and included in this act. I realized thatthis, indeed, is an historic occasion in 225 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

this province. Although the hour is late, and the comments here and everyone who has attended numbers have somewhat waned, I did want to tonight has talked about multiculturalism and mentionthat because I think we are all involved,no multicultural policy as enshrining the concept of matterwhat views we bring to this process tonight, fighting racism. When you go through this very In an activityof historic proportion. short, very simple but very important act, I do not I want to commend the minister and the find the word "racism.w I do not find a clear governmentfor bringing forth this act at this time. I comment, concise and to the point, that the policy say that because we are all aware that there are of this government and that the intention of this forces in Canadian society and in Canadian politics Legislature is to fight and combatrac ism. now that represent ideas and a viewpoint that is in In that regard, Mr. Chairperson, I have a very direct opposition to the principles enshrined in this simple suggestion. The wording, of course, the legislation. I think the government should be committee can deal with as it sees fit. In the commended on thetimi ng of this act because, quite preamble, I would like to suggestthe addition of one frankly, I think a lot of people in the multicultural sentence which would read, WHEREAS the communities and a lot of Canadians of all political Legislative Assembly of Manitoba is committedto stripes are getting sick and tired of tl'le use of eradicating racism and bigotry in Manitoba. multiculturalism by some segments of our community as some sortof dirtyword , as some sort Very simple, Sir. Do not be afraid to use the word of principle that stands for abuse. It stands for a "racismw in your legislation. That is the clear representation of minority interests only. intention of the government and of the minister and, I view thisact, and I know B'nai Brith views this in fact, of all the groups who have appeared here act today that is before the House as one that today. One component of your multicultural policy enshrines and reaffirms a principleof both Manitoba must be to recognize racism and to affirm your ability society and Canadian society that we are all very to stamp it out. If you accept that as part of your proud of. Enough accolades because it is only a preamble, I am asking the minister also to support piece of legislation,and one of the speakers tonight the same wording to be added as Section 2(d) as so aptly putit, it is not cast in stone. It is not an act part of the policy. of God,and it is capable of being improved. I would So there will be no ambiguity and there will be no like to address the committee on a couple of points difference between what we all accept as bold and where we think it can be improved at a minimal very supportivesta tementsin the Houseand a very effort. Theredrafting is minimal. simple and concise statement in this act that * (0000) everyone can pointat and saythis government,this I was very pleased when I read the minister's House, is committed to stamping out racism. That speaking notes at thetime of the introduction of the is partof the policy. act. I notice on page 5, the minister addressed her When I looked at Section2(a) of theact, I read it. attention to racism and the place it now has in I think I understoodthe intent, but I went back to the Canadian societyand the problems as a societywe preamble. Madam Minister, I went back to the have seen with the rise ofraci sm. I will quote part second part of the preamble of the act where it of what she said, because I think it bears great states that the diversity of Manitobans as regards attention bythe commi ttee. culture, religion and racial background as a She said on page 5 of her notes: We must, fundamental characteristic of Manitoban society without exception or condition, make it clear that which benefits all Manitobans economically, socially racism has noplace in our society. Refusing to take and culturally. I must say, I like seeing that a stand against racism is accepting it, and we are statement, but I would be awhole lot happier if that not prepared to dothat. statement was in Section 2(a) instead of what We commendthe minister, and we commend the appears to be a very limited statement only to the government on that statement. It is indeed a very words "cultural diversity. w forceful and bold statement. What happened to religion and racial background When I lookedat the acttoday before I came, the and diversity in that? If it is so fundamental, let us word "racismw does notappear in this act. There are put it in as a policy recognition, please. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVEASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 226

Mrs.Mit chelson: Justfor a point of clarification, if the policy of the government does not mention you could goback and repeat that. just I missed that eliminating racism either as a goal. portion ofit. There was an activityongoing and I am Butthere is a sectionthat reads: Thegovernment sorry. will strive to prevent all forms of discrimination Mr.Tracht enberg: That is just fine. through education and through enforcement of Mr.Chai rperson: I am afraid I detracted her. provincial laws. That is a section that I hope to amend Into the act as well. I wonder if you would Mr.Tracht enberg: Now we are into tomorrow or it find that to be suitable, or If you specifically wantto is today, I guess, so I am pleasedto do so, sir. see the word racism included in that as well. Mr.Chai rperson: You are one ofthe very few and privileged people in this province. You are the only Mr. Trachtenberg: I like the suggestion that you one who is going to be allowedto make a two-day havejust advanced, and I assume thatthis Is being presentation on this bill. quoted out of the policy statement from 1990. But in addition to it, somewhere in this act should be a Mr.Trachtenberg : I said historic proportions-mtle short, concise statement that the government, the did I know, thank you, sir. legislature, has taken to task racism and set as an Madam Minister, I was saying that in the objective, the eradication, elimination,whatever the preamble, the second paragraph, the one that word that will ultimately be used. I use eradication commences-it is thefirst •and whereas", and I will because to me it denotes a much more forceful not read it into the record again. I saw that approach, and it is a very strong word. recognition of the fundamental characteristic Mr. Santos: I like the presenter making the because It Involves both or all of culture, religion and quotationthat racism has no place in our societyand racial background, and when I viewed that as your thatrefus ing to take a stand againstracism is in itself preamble, I note that Section 2(a) only talks about a way of promoting it. recognizing, promoting and understanding that cultural diversity, and then it goes on. Are you saying, then, Murray, thatin not including any reference to racism, is thegov ernmentrefusing Itis my suggestionthat it would be quite simple to to take a stand or is it merely an oversight? save 2(a) as it now reads in part, where it says, "recognize and promoteundersta nding", butthen go Mr. Trachtenberg: I suspect it was clearly an back to your preamble andlift in thewords : That the oversight because I believeI am the firstone tonight cultural, religious and racial diversity of Manitobans who has drawn it to the committee's attention. I is a fundamental characteristic of Manitoba society think,quite honestly,that there is other language in which benefitsall Manitobans economically,socially theact, especially in 2(b), where it talks about equal and culturally. accessto opportunities. From an interpretive point of view, it is my The intent, as I read it, is very clear, that is, to submission that this will create, once adopted as recognize an effort at stamping out racism. My policy of this government, a muchlarger policy that suggestionor submission,though, is just simply say will encompass allthree areas. That concludes my it in a short statement. I have just referred to the submission, sir. minister's statement because I quite frankly was Mr.Chairperson : Are there any questions of Mr. quite impressed with the strong wording in the Trachtenberg? speaking notes. Ms. Cerllll: Thank you, Mr. Trachtenberg for your Mr. Santos: If it is merely an oversight, should recommendations. I appreciate that your focus had therenot be a duty to correctthe oversight? been similar to mine, and I was concerned when I Mr. Trachtenburg: I am suggesting that the saw the bill about the limitations of the policy opportunity-the duty, of course, will be determined section. by this committee, I guess, as you move through I would like to ask you if you would consider a potential amendments. Having drawn it to all sectionthat is part ofthe policy that thegov ernment members' attention, including the ministerwhom I has developed that is not in this legislation. I have the opportunity of addressing tonight, I am wonder If you would think it would address some of submitting or suggesting that that oversight be the concernsthat you have, and I would note that corrected before the bill is returned to the House. 227 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

* (0010) reflected in its hiring practicesand inappointments Mr.Lamoureux: Quickly,Mr. Chairperson, I would to boards, commissions and other provincial offices ask thepresenter if he has any thoughtsin terms of so that these institutions are representative of the what I had alluded to earlier with regards to two community, yet in Bill 98, all that is mentioned is particular Issues: one, the Inclusionor exclusion of equal access to opportunities. the Manitoba Intercultural Council, and the My organizationfeels strongly that a multicultural Manitoba Grants Advisory Councilbeing includedin bill must include a commitment to affirmativeaction theact, if he feels that is an appropriate place for it. as government policy, also contract compliance. Mr.Tracht enburg: I basically have no positionand This bill must eitherrefer to affirmative action policy no thoughts. I have come tonight to address the or, as some people say, an addition. I am not quite area that the league, at least locally, has been sure. preoccupiedwith over the last few years that I have There is a great need for the province to ensure been involved, namely fighting racism and hatred. economic development for target groups, especially Mr.Lamoureux: Thank you, and I guess that is in our youth. Ouryouth painfully realize that the entire part the reason why we will definitely bEt voting for system, the government, politicians, the courts,the the bill. police, the corporations, the media are denying them equal access. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. Trachtenburg, for your presentation. So what has the government done so far? Not much. There are no coherent policies addressing The committee calls Norma Walker. Would you these urban problems. You have a chance now to pleasecome forward? Have youa prepared text for do something before It is too late. distribution? They feel that the government, the corporations Ms.Norma Walker (Congress for Black Women): have no intention of hiring them at real wages and No, I am sorry, Mr.Chairpers on. the politicians are ignoring their needs. We do not Mr.Chairpers on: Would you proceed, please. want our youth to take to the streets. This Ms. Walker: My name is Norma Walker. I am government can do something worthwhile to president of the Congress of Black Women of promote employment equity: equal access to Canada, Manitoba chapter. This is a nonprofit post-secondaryeduca tion,the majority of ouryoung organization planned anddeveloped to enhance the people are dropping out of school; special project consciousness, education, rights for black women funding for our youth. in Manitoba. Just quickly, one of our aims, Total lack of the mention of race relations in Bill objectives is to foster a climate in which it is 98, total disregard for the recentonslaught of racial acceptable for black women to openly examine injustice in Manitoba is puzzling to us. After the issues which affect them andtheir families. Toronto demonstrations, federal, provincial The Congress of Black Women of Canada, governments hastily sought community leaders for Manitoba chapter Is pleased that the government advice on race relations. All community leaders has decided to introduce this important piece of volunteer their time in this community. The legislation, Bill 98. Manitobans have long awaited politicians have abdicated their responsibility in this this act, and we feel that it is timely. Unfortunately, whole matter and most of time are looking to we feel that this act is one without muchsubsta nce. community leaders for answers. There are no specifics. This act has left us with Racism is a crime, and it is up to the government some skepticism. There are too many important to establish racism as a crime. There is a need to issues that were written into the Manitoba restore credibility in the justice system, which has multicultural policy that are notincluded in this act. been failing the nonwhite people. In the policy Itstate s that Manitobans, regardless of While the act recognizes the Importance of culture, religions or racial background, have a right encouragingthe use of heritage language, it is also to equal access to opportunities,to participate in all silent on the matter of encouraging and continuing aspects of the life of the community. developmentof the artisticactivities throughout our Itwent on to say thatthe government will ensure multicultural community, as stated in the policy that the multicultural nature of our society is paper again. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 228

My organization strongly feels that the Manitoba linkage. The government also should continue to Intercultural Council belongs in themultic ultural act, build, or to include building, better race relations of course, as much as the Multicultural Secretariat and, of course, recognizing racism as a crime. and the community access office. What we noticed That is my report. is that the secretariat now duplicates the MIC role * and mandate. MIC, to us, is the only legislated (0020) province-wide body representing all these Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Ms. ethnocultural organizations in Manitoba. So Walker. Are there any questionsof Ms. Walker? instead of including or even making reference to Mr. Santos: I just have one question. Do you MIC, the minister chose to completely ignore the think, Ms. Walker, that the omission of MIC in the existenceof MIC in the act. I noticedthey even took multicultural act is also anoversight? away the word "council" and gave it to the Ms. Walker: I do not know if it is, but if it is, I am secretariat. The secretariat is now thecouncil. hoping that it will be corrected. Why on Earth did the government not have the Ms. Cerllll: Thank you for your presentation, Ms. review since it was recommended December 1990, Walker. You have hit on a lot of key issues that we when they were asked,why now? The perception are starting to hear a number of times in other of many people I have spoken to concerning the presentations, so our questions will become fewer intent is they are fearing that this is one of the ways and fewer, but I also just want to clarify that you are of just watering down MIC or getting rid of MIC in a member ofthe Intercultural Council, elected from of favour thesecretariat. your community. Again, my organization feels that this legislation Ms. Walker: Yes, I am chair of the human rights has notee th. There mustbe someway ofincluding standingcommi ttee. real issues, addressing violence in the community, Ms. Cerllll: I realize too that you are making the all forms ofviolence caused as a result of injustice, presentation today on behalf of the Congress of violence in the home, in the workplace, violence Black Women, but with respect to your role on the caused by racism, classism and ageism. An Intercultural Council, why is it that people are so importantissue again is the race relations, and we concerned about the review coming in and think it must be included in this policy-support for coinciding with the presentation of this act? antiracist education In the schools, in the public service, In thepolice force . Thereal issue ofracism Ms. Walker: Well, as I mentioned in my report, must be addressed. Racism must be recognized from December1990 , I think it was, the government again as acrime. was asked to do the review. Anybody would be skeptical. Why now? Why now, when a 1 also want to mention MERC for thoseof you who multicultural act was just introduced in the House? recall the Multicultural Education Resource Centre. Why doa review right now? Why not even mention That centre was designed to help promote or include MIC in the actand maybe later on have a multiculturalism in theschools. Ofcourse , over the review, or why not the review before, if they knew years, this centre has been watered down. They that the act was going to be introduced in the got rid of most of the staff. This centre was very, House? It is skepticism; we are skeptical. very important, always there to recommend antiracist literature, literature that was free from Ms. Cerllll: Maybe just clarify again for the biases andstereot ypes. committee the key importancethat you see for MIC and why it is important to the community, why it is The centre was quietly strippedof its staff and its important to be included in the multiculturalact. liaisonwith the community. That is what I call-this Ms. Walker: Well, as I say, most of the was a strong bond with the community. It is no ethnocultural organizations, see MIC as that very more. So ifthis government is really serious about importantlink to the government and to multicultural multiculturalism, as this act might show, then they policy. Because now that they are given a should reinstate MERC and get the community multicultural act without MIC, they cannot see that. involved and the schools, again. It is always such an important government 1 thinkone other thing I have to say is that there community link with multiculturalism that peopleare should be some inclusion of MIC in the act, or wondering why. How can you have a multicultural 229 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

act without not even one mention of MIC? That is 10:30 to say I would likely be a little later, she said, what I am hearing,especially from communities that do not be silly. Why do you not come home. I I talk to. mean, this is crazy. I said, I have to stay because Mr. Lamoureux: Ms. Walker, thank you for your there is a point to be made. presentation. I think you are being too easy on the We talk about the act that is supposed to government with regard to the Manitoba encourage opportunity to participate fully, and this Intercultural Council, that in fact there was a fairly is participating fully, to have to tryto beat the clock strong commitment, at one point in time, to come or beat the committee or whatever. It does not backwith a plan for MIC which saw the incorporation make sense to me, because it is a very important within the legislation. I concur with you in that bill. I knowthat thisa very worthyendeavour on the respect. part of the government, and they should be I notice towardsthe latte r end of your comments, commendedfor the initiative. you made referenceto what I had alluded to earlier. I also welcome that the act recognizes That is that ifwe are unable to see an amendment multiculturalism and the recognition of the that would incorporate MIC in its entirety into the importance of heritage languages. I support the multicultural act, do you feel your orl;janization principle that multiculturalism applies to all people. would support references made to the Manitoba Yet, when I heard Mary Richard I have to Intercultural Council within the multicultural act and sympathize with them, too, because I feel that they some of those linkages established? Would you should have avoice to say whether they shouldbe support thatand retaining theManitoba Intercultural included or not. CouncilAct? Itis because of the processthat I wanted to come Ms.Walker: Yes, I think ifwe cannotget the whole today, becausewhen I talkedto our local community thing,I would definitelyhave to go for some form of organization, they said we just got the information. linkages. Even thismorning when I phoned, theywere not too Mr.Lamoureux: Thankyou. sure whether the hearings would be on for sure. That, again, is a reflection of what we call open Mr. f::halrperson: Thank you very much, Ms. process. Walker, for your presentation. I think it is very important, when we are talking The committee now calls Mr. Pandey Senior­ about a bill that is going to affect Manitobans, that An Honourable Member: He is going to be here theyshould have an opportunityto speak on behalf tomorrow. of it. I would recommend that regardless-! know Mr. Chalrperson: Mr. Prag Naik. Is he here ? No. that you want to get the bill through, but I am not too Antonio Portillo, Art Mikl. Mr. Miki, have you a sure whether two months or three months is going presentation for distribution? Would you proceed to make that much of a difference-other Manitobans have an opportunity to speak out, and I think the please, Mr. Mikl? majority would support yourbill. Mr. Art Mlkl (Private Citizen): Thank you, Mr. I have some recommendations on it that I feel Chairperson. My name is Art Miki. I am speaking as a private citizen although I am very closely could likely strengthen it, but I think Manitobans connected withthe Japanese Canadian Association would support it. I think that it would be more if of Manitoba. credible people had an opportunityto speak more openly and to be able to express their views Partof thereason I stayed till the end is because because you are trying to do it for Manitobans. I I think there is a pointto be made of all of this. When hope you are not trying to do it for yourselves I was contacted, they said seven o'clock which is because it does apply to all Manitobans. fine. I can tell the time. I came down at eight thinking it likely would notstart right on time, but to * (0030) be here at 12:25 in the morning to be presenting I think it has been mentioned a number of times information I feel, ifI were in yourpositions, I donot now that the bill itself lacks specifics. I attended the think I would listen to sit here that long. So I am not legislative committee hearings when they did The too sure what type of response I am going to get Multiculturalism Act for the federal government. At from you. I know that when I phoned my wife at that time, we made presentations. There were very June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 230

specific points that we wanted included, so that money could likely be used to provide some when people read the act, they could see very opportunitiesfor the communities to have input. strong points of what the act really meant. I think the Multicultural Grants Advisory Council I read your policy of 16 lines. Essentially, the that was mentioned-end I know that MIC at one policy is condensed into 161ines and is very general. time, and I was on that particular body, had the It makes comments such as equal access to responsibilityfor grants. That was taken away and opportunity, but what does that really mean? Is it replaced by this particular group. Regardless of really reflecting the idea of affirmative action? It what group monitors the grants, the concern I have says, rights of all Manitobans. What does It really is that the membership of that council should be mean? I hearthat all the time,but it really does not representing the communitiesin some fashion, that mean anything, unless you could put some other perhaps the nominees for that committeecome from words to it that have some meaning. Doesit mean the community and not be someone who is chosen something about racism and discrimination, that because of their contribution, perhaps to the party these are not going to be tolerated? What does it or whatever the case may be. mean? I think the bill itself lacks monitoring and an I guess the bill itseH has that type of vagueness accountabilitymechanism. The only accountability to It, and I would encourage the members of the mechanism you have is one report, the annual committee to look at it and maybe to look at other report by the minister which will be tabled in the bills. I realize that there are not that many bills House. It does not involve anyone else. To me, around, and I commend the governmentfor taking that is nota very strong monitoring mechanism. I the initiative, but I think if we are going to do a job, would recommend that there be an independent let us do it right, and let us make it strong sothat we body or an individual like a commissionaire. That can be all proud of it. may become again too bureaucratic, but perhaps Another part that I want to comment on is on the the Manitoba Intercultural Council or some body structure, which I feel, at the present time, does not could even play that role to some degree. allow for effective communication. You have the I have tried to summarize the keyissues for you. secretariat. Now you are talking about community I thinkI have touchedon all ofit. I thinkthe one other access offices. These are both government comment I would like to make is, whatever instituted mechanisms, and I thinkthat whether it Is communication vehicle that you use in terms of the Manitoba InterculturalCouncil or some body that havi ng government personnel meet with is representative of the community, it should be communities, that these peoplewho do that type of playing a greater role. They should be the access job should have strong ties to or knowledge of the to the policy. They should be the ones who could ethnoculturalcomm unitiesso that theybecome part provide the information. of that system , of the linkage that I have heard of I thinkthere is some credibilitywhen you have an tonight. organizationthat represents a community doing the Those are my comments, and I do appreciate the job, more than an institution that is developed by fact that even at 12:30 in the morning, we are sitting government, because thereis always thatquest ion, here, and you look pretty wide awake, so I whether you mean it. In all good sense, it may not appreciate that. be accepted that way, and I think that you know that thereare a lotof criticisms toward governmentsand Mr.Chairpers on: Thank you very much,Mr. Miki. how they operate. Are therequesti ons? So I feel that there should be a community-based Ms.Cerllll: Yes, Mr. Miki, thatis a good summary, body established to monitor the implementation of I think, of key points, and I appreciate your staying, this bill and that this body also be a forum for those and I appreciate the experience you have on these groups that want to have access to the information issues and the whole concept of what you are that the government-or that it would convey the saying, that because the bill is being brought in so information to the government. I do not see the late in the session and given the late hour and the purpose in having a community access office by lack of time that people have had to prepare, that putting up more money for a structure when that this process is not very accessible, and people are 231 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

not really being given a chance to participate and Mr.Mlkl: Well, I guessyou have to put a lot oftrust that is reflective of the bill. into the politicians, and I think what we are saying is thatwe needto have things that are tighter because I gather thisis what you aresayi ng, that thebill is I think that when it is toowide, if it is toovague , then somewhat like that because it is not providing a there are too many opportunitiesfor abuses ofwhat communication link to representatives of the the intent of that bill is. community, and thatis what you are saying. Is that- I would rather, and this is an individual comment, Mr. Mlkl: Yes, just to clarify that, that is what I am see things that are more clearly laid out than they saying. are in this particular bill. I think if you look at the The comment I was making is when you put words federal bill, that doesit to some degree, butI am not into the bill that have strong inference toward saying that you should adopt it. community involvement, I would think that in the Mr. Santos: It might be the case that the MIC has process of developing that bill, you would also changed throughoutthe years. As I have indicated continue or carry over that same principle. To me, before, when an organization is started, or initiated, it is hypocrisy ifyou say that in the bill andthen you it is usually very democratic, but as power do not do that in developing the bill. I guess the consolidates, then there is a gap between the question of credibility of that bill can be raised leadership and the membership, and it becomes because if words do not mean much in the less and less representative of the masses or of the application,then how would it mean much once you membership. have it on paper? Ifthat is the case, andregardless of itsdefects, is Ms.Cerll ll: Can you just clarify for me again some it still your opinion that this is a much better structure of the key ways that you think the communication than a government-appointed or a government with respectto the bill would beim proved and some agency? of the links to the community? * (0040) Mr. Mlkl: I think you need to have a body, and I Mr.Mlkl: Well, I guess I would supportthe premise recognize that MIC is a community-based body, that ifyou can get grassroc!s involvement, you are exceptthat I think over the years, it has changedto going to have more commitment to whatever you some degree, that it no longer is that reflective are doing. I mean, you can appoint people too who perhaps of the needs of the community as much, or are very good at what they are doing and who have there may be a feeling that the MIC does not the sensitivity to the community. I think when I represent those views as strongly. So I think that heard the present chairperson speaking tonight, it there is a change in the perception. changed my mind. I was thinking that you can also overdo it. I think you have to be sensitive to the I think we need tobring it back a wee bit and say situation. this is a community-based organization, and in the I think that regardless ofhow flawed it is to have bill itself, the MIC bill, it should be reflecting that. grassroots involvement, there is not much Somehow if we can bring that together, then that is commitment if you do not get them involved. I a link that you are going to have to the community. guess evenwith the distribution of funds, I think it is I not think offices will do it. I do not think that is do very important that the community sees that it has the mechanism that will get people running into your some role in it. office with all kinds of information or ideas. I do not Do you think that the combination of think they would do that. Mr.Santos : electoral mandate and appointed personnel on Mr.Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. Miki, accountof their skills and technical expertise would for your presentation tonight. be a better combination? Mr. Santos: It is a paradox. The law has to be Mr. Mlkl: If they are appointed through some general, but the higher the level of generality, the nomination system which does involve-! mean, you more ambiguous the provision becomes. Themore could have a dozen people being nominated, but specific the provisions are, the less flexibility there you may only look at one, but then you at leasthave will be. Which would you advise the government to assurances that this is someone whom perhaps the have? community feels thattheywould have confidencein. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVEASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 232

I would seethat type ofcombination cert ainly being multicultural body whether it Is MIC or the acceptable. multicultural act, the appointment of the board should be above the partisan, because in every Mr. Santos: What is your conception of an ethnic community there are certain people who independent body,regardless of a situation? I tend belong to all three major parties. to be veryskeptical about a so-called independent body. A few years back, a friend of mine told me at that Mr. Mlkl: When I talk about an independentbody, time when we have some gran�t that time, it was It means that a body, even though it is an advisory NDP government-and people were very happy. He bodyto a government, it has some latitude in terms said, well, this is one part ofthe government when of the things that theycould recommend. they divide people. I did not believeat that time, but later on I began to realize thatthis is a fact. If the In other words, I think the value of a body, ifit is funds go to one ethnic group more on the party basis advisory, is that it finds out what the community's than the other, then there is a split and there is concernsare , and it can bring it to the government. startingenmity among the groups. So it should not Now, regardless, the role of governmentthen is to be a part of this act. I must say that ethnic make some decisions in terms of whether those communities generally really do not want any recommendations are viable or not. special grants or any special privileges, but they I think the process is important. That is what I am definitely want to see equal privileges. saying when I talk about an independent body, that Before me, many people touched this racism. I thosepeople are there becauseof the communities, thinkracism is such a thingthat we cannotreduce rather than because of the government. it. We cannot eliminate it. Our criminal codes also Mr.Santos : My final question,Mr. Chairperson,do are very useful to suppress racism, as a couple of you agree and believe that process is substance? years back we had this experience. We met the Mr. ,.kl: Yes. honourable Attorney-General-he is sitting here-and he very effectively did suppress that Mr.Chairpers on: Thank you very much, Mr. Miki, notion. for your presentation. The committee calls Irene Frigo, Antonio The money should go into the different Portilla-not here, Kyle Goomansingh, Mike multicultural people, should go to the multicultural Maendel, Lena Anderson-oh,we have heard from education, not only on the school levels, butalso to her, I am sorry. MohinderSingh Dhillon. the adult education. Unfortunately, because this comes to me, this is my experience, that many Mr. Dhillon, have you a presentation, a prepared people do not understand each other's cultures. presentation for distribution? For instance, like in our culture when we go to our Mr. Mohlnder Singh Dhillon (Private Citizen): church we cover our head. We have turbans or a No, I do not have. handkerchief, but when we go to church they want Mr.Chairperson : Would you proceed please? to remove their hats. So this is the cultural differences. If the money is spentto educate the Mr.Dhillon: Thank you very much. Actually, I will Manitobans, that will be very useful. be short as the time tells us. First of all, I really appreciate and recommend and give Similarly, I say that this act did nottouch MIC. I congratulations to the Honourable Minister Bonnie think many of our speakers said that. I was also Mitchelson to Introduce this bill. It is the time to involved from the very first day of the MIC's recognize the multicultural nature of our province. existence, and what I gained out of this, because I But I have, like the other speakers before myself, am also here from seven o'clock, and many of the some concerns which are becoming a part of this faces I saw we became friends through the MIC by act, for instance, funding. I also believe that an annual meetings or as otherassociation gatherings. appointed body bythe minister certainlypoliticizing When we begin to know people, we become the situation. friends, and when we becomefriends to each other, If the record shows and the percentage of the we beginto respect each other's cultures. We have appointed people are political people and, certainly, pulled down the curtains of cultures and peeked they are definitely a partisan people, especially a throughthe other cultures and begin to respect that. 233 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

That is what we want. That is what I gained from Racial difference is cultural and politically MIC. This is why I supportMIC. motivated, polluted very nicely to deceive the Secondly, the fundamental and most cherished people. In Manitoba university, in Winnipeg thing in ourcountry, the character of our country is university, in Toronto, I spoke on thisissue that race the democraticsystem , which we really enjoy. We as a conceptdoes not exist. Itexists only when you speak our minds. MIC has a board which is remain satisfied with the overtly perceivable democratically elected and which is-not the point phenomena. that we are not talking about today's government. I have got the same kind of temperature, I have We should think about the Mure governments. got the same kind of blood, I have the same kind of They can alsopoliticize for their own purpose,so we skeleton. I have the same kind ofcuticles. What is must fill this gap one way or the other to think, so the difference? I have the same kind of that people or thegov ernment of the time should not chromosomal differences. I have the same kindof take advantage of the multicultural society. genetics. Where is the difference in the human Many things have been said which I do not want races?-it is man-made. Racial difference is not a to waste any time. This is my submission. Thank concept forthe student ofaca demics. you very muchfor listening. For my introduction, I have taught in the Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. universities for 25 years, cross-cultural psychology. Dhillon. Are there any questions of Mr. Dhillon? If I am a member of the Cross Cultural Psychology of not, thankyou again for your presentation. America and they have published a book and I call John Jack. Is JohnJack here? carried my article. Thirteen students of mine have received Ph.D. degreesunder my supervision in the I call Dr. Amar Singh Dhalliwal. Mr. Dhalliwal is a areas of education and cross-cultural psychology. walk-in presenter. So I regard it excuse that if you fail to carry out * (0050) scientifically sound analysis of any concept-and multiculturalism is that kind of concept-then the Dr. Amar Singh Dhalllwal (Punjab! Seniors whole of the system will go helter-skelter and A8aoclatlon): This is by chance thattwo people downright misleading. I am not taking the side of belonging to the same community have come one thisact or thatact. I am talking about the misleading afterthe oth er. nature of the concept. Mr. Chairperson, I am really thankful to you for giving me thetime and, culturallyspeaking, it is very Broadly speaking, every culture-now if science importantwhen theclock large hand crosses twelve can use the common denomination for all the because It is during early hour that you can say cultures, then thereis no differencein the culture-by something very much enlightened according to definition, refers to that as something which man Punjabi culture. I may kindly be excused for this. produceson this Earth in orderto make the process of life facilitated. Now what are those things which I have knowinglyused "chairperson," because in we produce to enjoy life on this globe? Material the western culture, in each family there are two culture. cultures: Women are different, men are different. British Columbia university has expended $70,000 I have not brought my material culture over here. on proving that one or the other sex is superior in I have brought only one which is overtlyperceivabl e, comparison to theother. That is why now you can but nobody tries to understand as to what this is appreciate that I have used this "chairperson" indicative of. It is indicative of responsibility, knowingly as aneutral gender. accountability. The man who bears this crown, he is held accountable and responsible for the people The western culture, I am quoting from the being represented by him as a man of the turban. encyclopedia: The basic difficulty with the western culture is that they believe in differences; they If I acceptthis concept in this way, then there is observe differences. But, actually, the eastern no difference. Why should people hate those culture says that all men try to see similarities and people, those who are accountable,responsi ble for thenthere will be noprob lem. So I will be speaking their jobs? I am working for the Age and on the misleading nature of the multiculturalism as Opportunityas a volunteer. People enjoy it. It is the a conflict. conceptual analysis which will helpyou to reach the June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 234

decision making. If you are satisfied that the Language is a very important culture. We are cultural differences are really there, the second fighting for our material culture, normative culture, material culture, thencognitive culture. our cognitiveculture. So H any culturally meaningful unit of all the groups intends to be retained in the I have not brought thatcognitive culture also here, because I know that certain cognitions in India, cross-cultural fertilization, kindly see that those according to the theory of multicultural relativism, components of the cultures will dominate in the they are true there. Why should I bring those? I cross-cultural fertilization which are potent enough have not brought those cognitives which are not to survive in the common culture, the Canadian meaningful here in Canada, in Winnipeg. culture. I am sure that H we go to solve the problem of Normative culture, the third component-all the multiculturalism by education, it means, what is cultures of the civilized societies are having the three components. These three components, if needed through education to be inculcated in the theygo as common denominators in all the cultures, mindsof the common people-one is the concept of then where is the difference between the cultures? neighbourhood school. I held on through it. I Neither have I brought material culture, with the worked as a volunteer in School Division No. 1. exception of this, nor have I brought normative What is that? If we cannot put our children, the culture of mine. It is the cross-cultural fertilization future citizens, in the same stream-1requested the which we need here at Winnipeg andManitoba and Education minister that I intended actually to Canada as a whole. present the educational problem in the presence of the Educationmini ster, but she was indisposed, and You have very nicely done one thing as the thereforewe could not discuss the issue. It means Manitoba government, that you do not give grants the neighbourhood school, the concept, it is very to the religious institutions, but I dare say, as a much meaningful-end Carstairs could also enjoy it, student of psychology, cross-cultural psychology the teachers, even in the neighbourhood school. It and education, that religion Is the most important means, if we are floating in the common stream, componentof any culture,religion. Ifyou take away thereis no difference of high and low and rich, then my religion, it means-but I will nurture my own we can look afterthat Canada not be afraid ofthis, Important component, because that is something becausewe are human beings, belong to the same personal, and H I need that, Itshould be passed on race, one race. to the cominggenerati ons, my secondgeneration In Canada. I will arrange my own things to nurture * (0100) that, to flourish it. You give me freedom but do not The second term which is very Important, racial give me a grant. Why? differences. It Is a politically oriented concept. There are about 77 colleges-62, the Those who are interestedin knowing this, they can denomination of colleges run by the religious go to the book, the politics and science of 1.0. In bodies, and Punjab is nowburning. You have sent racial differences,this is the 1.0., themost misused, some commissions to study the situation. Why? abusedconcept, and actuallyit doesnot exist. Who There were 62 denominations, religious institutions, says? Komaine. Komaine is the author of the and now we are fighting for our religious cultural book. He says that it is politics of divide and rule. establishment over there. You read the news. It Talk about superiorities and inferiorities, and people means a very nice decision on the part of the will certainlyaccept you. Manitoban government that now they do not give I request by august assembly that the problem grants to the most importantcomponent of culture. should be given for its solution to the two Similarly, language is the second important departments, the Department of Biology, the component of any culture. You have retained two Department of Psychology, at the Canadian level. languages, and now you are facing a problem, The professor should be asked to prepare a whether you acceptit or not. I have 565 languages, pamphlet based on the up-to-date researches in the but constitutionally we have recognized 15 in India. two areas. Neither the concept of 1.0. is there, nor Now try to see linguistic chauvinism has overtaken the concept of race is there. How can you misuse? the centralgovernment, and people are now fighting It means that the problem is very acute, no doubt, for the establishment of their languages. but I feel that it is not through annexation, but it is 235 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

througha meaningful system of educationwhich will likely to prove exercises in futility. I am sure that, help us in solvingthe problem. becausewe have joined our heads to think over this We should aim at sharing socialcohesiveness. I problem, therefore, ours will not be the exercises in feel that the difference of opinion is not possible on futility,but thetest analysis of theconcept is needed this issue. Our job, ultimate goal, when we talk and we remain satisfiedwith the surface analysis of about multiculturalism and the problems related to the concepts. multiculturalism, is to ensure social cohesiveness. So I have talked about the equal opportunities, What is thatneeded for? Equal opportunitiesfor the and when this subjectivityon the part of theobserver deserving people. I am not asking for any kind of of my behaviour goes away in objective-type tests, reservation for the Punjabi people. I am and the Free Press has very nicely picked up this representing the Association of Punjabi Seniors. concept of mine; that actually I have the right to Because we are seniors, therefore, we are actually survive here, not through that kind of reservation, working as volunteers here and there. The other that kind of meekly, or this kind of respectability to day, we were given that kind of recognition as the particularlanguage . volunteers by our Premier (Mr. Fllmon). I have accepted, when I accepted this migration Actually the thing is, the more these people go to Canada, then I was asked in the Canadian near to each other, the more are the chances for Embassy: Dhalliwal, have you the capacity to social cohesiveness. If they are nurtured in speak in English or in French? Yes, sir, both the watertight compartments, in different kinds of languages I can express myself in •. Well, where schools, accessible and not accessible to some would you like to go? Where Englis�Why do you people, then certainly,somehow or other thedragon not go to Montreal? Because I am not having that of multiculturalism, so-called, will bethere andit will kind of fluency and flexibility in that language, never die out. therefore, theexpression. So language is a kind of equipment. For example, in equal opportunities, what I am demanding, that if you ask me because I have Mr.Speaker: Could I call thehonourable presenter becomea landed immigrant and kindlygo in for the to order, please? We are dealing with a bill andwe test ofTOEFL, It means, why do we not ask our 12th would like the presentation to be directed towards grade students completing their 12thgrade in the the bill. schools to go in for TOEFL and there will be no rush Mr.Dhalllw al: Certainly, sir. Itis the orientation of in the universities? Certainly I feel that only one the person concerned, and I feel that the act is university will be sufficient to nurture the creative bound up with this kind ofdiscussion . You can carry minority, to nurture further to serve the community. out the act; you can do anything you like. I will be So the federal government has very nicely having no grudge, but my humble submission is that arranged in Canadafor ensuring that the people in it is an academic issue and it needs to be thrashed all the subgroups, subcultures- you can say if you out in the academic forums. My request is very like to use the term •culture," subcultures, are simple. differentgroups of the societies. They use objective Neither am I on this side, nor on that side because If type tests. I first seek citizenship of Canada, then I am not talking aboutthe act, but I am talking about go in for that kind of competitive test in the federal the concept of, multiculturalism, multiparty system. government service, then it is my ability, or my It means in Canada we are accepting these cognitive capacity with the help of which I will go. multiparty systems and I know that in 29 I will not like to be labelled as a visible minority constituencies in 90 in Manitoba, that the larger and so and so, and so and so. Thisis all misleading voters are not being represented in 29. It means we and downright misleading. I want the person who are still having that system. has the inside strength, who has the capabilities, Another thing, grants should not be givenfor any who has the cognitive structure to deal with the kind of nurturing of cultural differences. If they feel complex issues. Why should I go for this orthat kind that any item, any complement of their culture, of the of visible minority and all these things? different groups is needed, they should be thrown in Actually, when we fail to understand the true the cross fertilization in the pot, and ifthey have the nature of the concept, then all kinds of efforts are capacity to survive, they will survive. Otherwise June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 236

they should be left on their own. My humble elected body and therefore is not accountable to submission is neither of saving money but my anyone. Secondly, the city's Planning Committee purpose is to ensure social cohesiveness. Thank is not the elected representatives of thearea where you very much. the variances and conditional uses are necessarily Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. being heard. In the past year I have had to go Dhalliwal. Are there any questions ofMr. Dhalliwal? before the Planning Committee on zoning and H not, thankyou very much for your presentation. license matters. I have not encountered a single councillor from my community committee on this The committee will resume hearings tomorrow body. In one case, I was subjected to an outright (Tuesday) at ten o'clock. violation of the procedurefor hearing zoning by-laws Committee rise. for which I had to seek a rather expensive legal COMMmEEROSE AT: 1 :09 a.m. redress. The Planning Committee is a very powerful body that generally includes councillors WRITTENSUB MISSIONS PRESENTED from wealthier parts of the city. These individuals BUT NOT READ are not sensitive to the needs of the entire city. Committee forBill 78 As far as we are concerned Bill 78 is a step Dear Committee Members: backwards in civic government. Our elected representatives on our localCommu nity Committee I am writingon behalf of the McDermot-Sherbrook Residents Assoc. Inc. to express our opposition to are accountable to us because we at least have the Bill 178. According to our reading of this bill, the chance of electing them. Bill 78 removes their authority and the accountability of the entire city's Planning Committee will become the appeal body for the hearings of the Board of Adjustment. municipal government. Bill 78 will do a great deal the At present, the appeal body is constituted of the of damage to the poorer parts of city which are councillors on the appropriate Community already undera great deal ofstress. Committee. The Board ofAd justmentand Planning Please include this letter in the record of Committeewill hearvariances, conditional uses and opposition to the passage of this bill. mattersthat were formerly licenses. Catherine Collins Bill 78 is a fundamental violation ofthe democratic President process. First, the Board of Adjustment is not an McDermot-5herbrook ResidentsAssoc., Inc.