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Views About the Adequacy of the Stipend to Attract Church of This House of Commons and Often Conducts Priests, Especially in Rural Parishes

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Views About the Adequacy of the Stipend to Attract Church of This House of Commons and Often Conducts Priests, Especially in Rural Parishes Thursday Volume 497 15 October 2009 No. 124 HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) Thursday 15 October 2009 £5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2009 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 419 15 OCTOBER 2009 420 open for such use as Parliament required. In the usual House of Commons fashion, however, it did not allow for funding from Parliament. We hope that Members will contribute Thursday 15 October 2009 generously to the appeal, and I repeat that they should visit the church as often as they can. I will certainly refer the hon. Gentleman’s question to The House met at half-past Ten o’clock the Church Commissioners. PRAYERS David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): One of the most heavily used paved areas in this crowded and busy city must be the footpath between St. Margaret’s [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] and the abbey, and the slabbed area in front of the church. Is it right that the church is having to fund the BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS restoration of those cracked and uneven areas? Should that not be either for Westminster city council or for the CANTERBURY CITY COUNCIL BILL (BY ORDER) national taxpayer? If that is part of the scheme, it is unfair. Motion made, That the Bill be now considered. Hon. Members: Object. Sir Stuart Bell: My hon. Friend has made a valid point. The church is always on its own when it comes to Bill to be considered on Thursday 22 October. expenditure; it receives no support whatever from the Government. The Westminster Abbey and St. Margaret NOTTINGHAM CITY COUNCIL BILL (BY ORDER) Westminster Act 1972 placed the church and churchyard Motion made, That the Bill be now considered. of St. Margaret’s once more under the governance of the dean and chapter of Westminster, with one of the Hon. Members: Object. canons, Mr. Speaker’s chaplain, serving as rector. The Bill to be considered on Thursday 22 October. question of who is responsible for the upkeep of the footpath seems to have fallen through one of the many interstices that prevent the Government from spending Oral Answers to Questions any money at all. Parish Priests CHURCH COMMISSIONERS 2. Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York) (Con): How many parish priests there were in England on 1 June (a) 1997 and (b) 2009. [293067] The hon. Member for Middlesbrough, representing the Church Commissioners, was asked— Sir Stuart Bell: Figures are published at the end of St Margaret’s Church, Westminster December. On 31 December 1997 there were 7,471 full-time parochial clergy of incumbent status, compared 1. Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): What with 6,450 on 31 December 2007, the latest year for representations the Church Commissioners have which figures are available. received on the St. Margaret’s church, Westminster restoration appeal. [293065] Miss McIntosh: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that parish priests play a crucial role, especially in rural The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Stuart parishes? Because the number of priests has fallen, the Bell): Let me say to the hon. Gentleman, without size and number of parishes that they are being asked to discourtesy, that the answer is none. Let me add, however, look after has risen. That is putting huge pressure on that I have visited St. Margaret’s and seen what urgent them, and is obviously quite stressful. What are the remedial work has to be done. I invite other Members hon. Gentleman and the Church Commissioners doing also to visit the church. to try to increase the number of parish priests, particularly in rural areas? Mark Pritchard: As the hon. Gentleman will know, St. Margaret’s church dates back to the 11th century and was last refaced in 1725. The sum of £2 million is a Sir Stuart Bell: I know that the hon. Lady has strong significant target. Given that St. Margaret’s is the parish views about the adequacy of the stipend to attract church of this House of Commons and often conducts priests, especially in rural parishes. The Church is keen funerals and memorial services for Members, will the for stipends to be flexible enough to allow it to put hon. Gentleman undertake to hold discussions with the clergy where they can best be deployed, consistent with Church Commissioners and the chapter of Westminster preventing their mobility from being impeded. Abbey to ensure that those funds are raised? As the hon. Lady has said, the number of ordinants has risen. In 2007, 552 new clergy were ordained, the Sir Stuart Bell: The hon. Gentleman is right to reflect highest number since 2000. We welcome the upward on the £2 million that the appeal is intended to raise. He trend in ordination numbers, but recognise that owing is also right to point out that in 1972 an Act of Parliament to deaths and retirements the number of stipendiary required Westminster abbey by law to keep St. Margaret’s clergy is falling overall. 421 Oral Answers15 OCTOBER 2009 Oral Answers 422 Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): It is good to support the preservation efforts of the Churches hear that there are more priests in training—particularly, Conservation Trust, which is co-funded by the Government. one imagines, women priests—but, in addition to the Therefore it is welcome that the 2008 sale proceeds were amalgamation of many parishes, another growing trend the highest for over a decade; that helps us help the which I consider worrying is that priests are expected to Churches Conservation Trust. The current outlook for do at least a part-time job, if not a full-time job, as well sales proceeds is less encouraging, however, given the as being priests. That puts enormous pressure on them. economic climate. What research is the Church undertaking to ensure that those people can cope with the new work load, and are Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Is the hon. not unfairly put upon? Gentleman able to say how much of the net proceeds are reinvested in new church buildings? I always find it Sir Stuart Bell: My hon. Friend makes a valid point. very sad when I see a closed church building, but if the At the end of 1997, 6 per cent. of parochial-incumbent money is being reinvested in a new church building the status clergy—or 426 overall—were women, whereas in picture is, perhaps, not quite as bad as it might appear. 2007, 15 per cent., or 974, were women. I fully accept my hon. Friend’s point about the work load of priests. Sir Stuart Bell: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman During the recess I was up in Teesdale, where I visited for making that point. The purpose of the sales proceeds many churches and was surprised to learn that one is essentially to support the dioceses in their work, particular vicar covered at least five churches, which which might, of course, include building a new church. seemed to me an enormous work load. The problem is We should not forget that thousands of churches up recognised, but how we deal with it shall have to be and down the land remain open. It is extremely important discussed with the Archbishops Council. that people throughout the country have access to their Sale of Redundant Churches churches when they wish, and if we are closing down churches, it would be nice sometimes to open others. 3. John Robertson (Glasgow, North-West) (Lab): Agricultural Land How much income was received by the Church of England from the sale of redundant churches in 2008. 4. Mr. Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton) [293068] (Con): What acreage of agricultural land is owned by Sir Stuart Bell: In 2008, net proceeds from the disposal the Church Commissioners. [293069] of closed church buildings and sites were just under £4 million. Sir Stuart Bell: The commissioners hold over 109,000 acres of English farmland, spread across 44 estates and John Robertson: I thank my hon. Friend for his over 300 farms. answer. Does he know what conditions were attached to the sale of those churches, and how many of them Mr. Gibb: The Archbishop of Canterbury wants more ended up becoming part of the leisure and entertainment food to be grown locally and has attacked organisations industry, and particularly the adult entertainment sector? driven solely by the desire to make money. Is it not therefore paradoxical that the Church Commissioners, Sir Stuart Bell: We have very strict criteria on redundant which he chairs, wants to concrete over 3,000 acres of churches and what uses they can be put to after sale. If prime agricultural land to the west of Chalcraft lane in my hon. Friend has a particular case he wishes to refer my constituency? When challenged, the commissioners to me, I will be very interested to look at it. I am sure say they want to build on that land because they are that he will understand and accept that the proceeds obliged to maximise the amount of money they make. from the sale of closed churches are used to support If the Archbishop of Canterbury were a politician, dioceses in the work of the living Church. Since the would it not be fair to say that he says one thing but Pastoral Measure came into effect, we have distributed does another? £32 million in such support, also supporting the preservation efforts of the Churches Conservation Trust which is Sir Stuart Bell: It is always pleasant when the Archbishop co-funded by the Government.
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