H O U S E O F K E Y S O F F I C I A L R E P O R T

R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Y C H I A R E A S F E E D

P R O C E E D I N G S

D A A L T Y N

HANSARD

Douglas, Tuesday, 27th October 2015

All published Official Reports can be found on the website:

www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard

Supplementary material provided subsequent to a sitting is also published to the website as a Hansard Appendix. Reports, maps and other documents referred to in the course of debates may be consulted on application to the Tynwald Library or the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office.

Volume 133, No. 2

ISSN 1742-2264

Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas, , IM1 3PW. © Court of Tynwald, 2015 , TUESDAY, 27th OCTOBER 2015

Present:

The Speaker (Hon. S C Rodan) (); The Chief Minister (Hon. A R Bell) (Ramsey); Mr G G Boot (); Mr L I Singer (Ramsey); Hon. W E Teare (); Mr A L Cannan (Michael); Mr R K Harmer (Peel); Mr P Karran, Mr Z Hall and Mr D J Quirk (); Hon. R H Quayle (); Mr J R Houghton (); Mrs K J Beecroft and Mr W M Malarkey (); Mr C R Robertshaw (); Hon. J P Shimmin and Mr C C Thomas (Douglas West); Hon. R A Ronan (Castletown); Mr G D Cregeen ( and ); Hon. J P Watterson, Hon. L D Skelly and Hon. P A Gawne (); with Mr R I S Phillips, Clerk of Tynwald.

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Business transacted

Leave of absence granted ...... 15 1. Questions for Oral Answer...... 15 1.1. Electoral register – Date for completion ...... 15 1.2. Gas prices – Response to recent changes ...... 20 1.3. Commercial office accommodation – Empty premises and initiatives to increase take-up ...... 25 1.4. Blue Badges – Recognition in other jurisdictions ...... 27 1.5. Cannabis and derivatives – Medical use ...... 28 1.6. The Nunnery – Rent ...... 30 1.7. International organisations – Promotion of Island as location for headquarters ...... 31 1.8. TT World Series – Expenditure and progress ...... 32 Question 1.9. to be answered in writing ...... 35 1.10. Isle of Man Constabulary – Number of officers leaving and reasons ...... 35 Suspension of Standing Orders to take remaining Oral Questions – Motion lost; Questions 11-15 deferred to next sitting ...... 37 2. Questions for Written Answer ...... 39 1.9. Drug Arrest Referral Scheme – Recent work undertaken; whether still active ...... 39 2.1. Isle of Man Constabulary – Number of resignations, retirements ...... 39 2.2. Ramsey Post Office – Members of committee tasked with negotiations ...... 41 Order of the Day ...... 42 3. Bills for First Reading ...... 42 3.1. Police (Amendment) Bill 2015 ...... 42 3.2. Criminal Procedure and Investigations Bill 2015 ...... 42 4. House of Keys Standing Orders Committee ...... 42 4.1. Standing Orders Committee – First Report for the Session 2015-16 received and recommendation approved ...... 42 5. Leave to introduce ...... 48 5.1. A Bill to rename Douglas West – Leave to introduce – Motion carried ...... 48 6. Consideration of clauses ...... 51 6.1. Audit (Amendment) Bill 2015 – Clauses considered ...... 51 6.2. Highways (Amendment) Bill 2015 – Consideration of clauses deferred ...... 60 6.3. War Memorials Bill 2015 – Clauses considered ...... 60 The House adjourned at 12.12 p.m...... 63

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House of Keys

The House met at 10.00 a.m.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The Speaker: Moghrey mie, Hon. Members.

Members: Good morning, Mr Speaker. 5 The Speaker: The Chaplain will lead us in prayer.

PRAYERS The Chaplain of the House of Keys

Leave of absence granted

The Speaker: Hon. Members, I have given leave of absence to the Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Peake, who is off Island on Government business. The Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Watterson will join us in the course of this morning.

1. Questions for Oral Answer

CHIEF MINISTER

1.1. Electoral register – Date for completion

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Chief Minister:

What action he is taking to ensure that electoral lists are complete; and when he estimates his work will be complete?

10 The Speaker: Questions for Oral Answer, Item 1, and I call on the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran. Question 1.

Mr Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder, I ask the Question standing in my name: what action is he taking to ensure that electoral lists are complete, and what is it estimated his work will take to 15 complete?

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The Speaker: I call on the Chief Minister to reply. Mr Bell.

The Chief Minister (Mr Bell): Thank you, Mr Speaker. 20 It would be ideal to have the electoral register complete, but with continual population changes requiring the register to be regularly updated, the register will always be a work in progress.

The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Karran. 25 Mr Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder, would the Ard-shirveishagh not agree that it is absolutely appalling when you allow for the fact of when we used to have the Assessment Board with two or three officers on it, and now how many officers – would the Chief Minister like to tell us – we have got compiling the lists on a full-time basis within the section? 30 Would he also clarify to this House, with the fact that we have got a computer system now, why are the voters’ lists so appallingly wrong as far as reflecting the true reality of what people are living in different constituencies?

The Speaker: Chief Minister to reply. 35 The Chief Minister: That is an interesting observation, Mr Speaker. The Hon. Member, I am sure, has been amongst all of us over the years who have complained constantly about the number of people who have been actually registered on the voters’ list who have either died, moved away or are no longer certainly in that vicinity. The voters’ list has been so out of date 40 and has been lacking in that cleansing exercise for many years, and this is what has been happening. A large number of names have been taken off the register, but it is because they no longer are relevant. The names are of people who have died or have moved away. The onus, nevertheless, on everybody else is for every individual to make sure their name is on the voters’ list. 45 We are doing our best within pretty much the same resource, actually, as the Hon. Member just refers to. I think there are three or four people working on the register to try and make sure the register is as up to date as it possibly can be, but this really is catching up because the register has been out of date, it has been wrong for a great many years, and the register we will end up with – and I hope we are close to it now – will be a more accurate reflection of the true 50 voter numbers in any particular constituency.

The Speaker: Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Beecroft.

Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Mr Speaker. 55 Would the Chief Minister agree that it would have been beneficial had another step been put in the process when forming the new list, that people who were on the old list and did not return the form should be contacted again? That second stage, if you like – just a safeguard to stop what has happened, (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) where people have not realised that they needed to send that form. They saw ‘electoral roll’ and they thought, ‘Well, I’m on it,’ and did 60 not bother reading it. There have been a lot of people complaining that ... and that they sent the form back and still did not get on the list, so something did go wrong, and that second safeguard would have helped it. Further, could the Chief Minister confirm that he is aware of incorrect or not complete electoral lists being given to candidates in the upcoming by-election? Is there a way that, where 65 a candidate has been given the wrong information or the incorrect list and then is not eligible because of that error ... that something needs to be put in place so that potential candidates are not disadvantaged?

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The Speaker: Chief Minister to reply. 70 The Chief Minister: Yes, Mr Speaker. I can only apologise to the candidates who have been affected by the wrongful distribution of the voters’ lists. It should not have happened. It was an administrative error in the General Registry and I think steps have been taken to make sure it cannot happen again. It should not have happened. There is no way to roll back from where we 75 are at the moment, I am afraid, but we have to make sure that it does not happen again in the future. In terms of ... Sorry, I have forgotten the first point of your question!

The Speaker: Mrs Beecroft. 80 Mrs Beecroft: Yes, a second step for people who –

The Chief Minister: Oh, sorry, yes. I take on board the point the Hon. Member makes. We are looking at the whole system again. It is something which has not been updated in the way it 85 should have been for many years. We are currently – I am not sure if Members had chance to meet him or not – discussing a root-and-branch review of all the election legislation, including how we deal with the voters’ lists, with the Chief Executive of the Association of Election Administrators, Mr John Turner, from the United Kingdom, so we can benefit from an independent outside overview of any deficiencies that might exist in our system, to make sure, 90 certainly well in advance – as far as legislation will allow us to do, anyway – of General Elections, so voters’ lists are accurate at that point.

The Speaker: Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Houghton.

95 Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr Speaker. When the Chief Minister now says he is looking at the system again, does he not see that he should really apologise to people who have been deleted off these lists inappropriately, first? And secondly, why did he not support my motion in Tynwald, after this fiasco in the Douglas North and Douglas South by-elections, for a select committee to look into it? Why did he 100 support, with his other Ministers ... not support the motion that I put for a select committee to look into this, so it would have been done and dusted all told?

The Speaker: Chief Minister.

105 The Chief Minister: Mr Speaker, I will repeat once again, for the umpteenth time, it is the ultimate responsibility of every individual to make sure that their name is on the voters’ list. It is not for me or for my officers to go round every house in the Isle of Man double-checking it. Everybody has a responsibility to look after their own interest, and this should be the case. The concern that the Hon. Member had about his own elections related to the polling 110 stations, and that is an issue directly related to the returning officer.

The Speaker: Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran.

Mr Houghton: North Douglas as well. 115 Mr Karran: Would the Ard-shirveishagh please –

The Chief Minister: No, it’s not.

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120 Mr Karran: He states that there are only three or four employed as far as the lists. Will he actually circulate the numbers that are employed by this section of Government who are involved with the construction of the voters’ lists and the numbers? And allowing for the fact of the great cost as far as computerisation these days, would he not agree that he and I used to have so much more detail on the old voters’ lists – the likes of property votes and everything 125 else? How does he reconcile the list to be so appallingly inaccurate as far as the way the lists are over the last five to 10 years? Would he also consider ...? I have not checked up, but when canvassing round Keppel Road, I reckon there were only about 20% – if that, (Mr Houghton: That’s right.) and I am being generous – on the voters’ list. Will he go and have a look there, independent of me, without me, 130 and check up and see how appalling the voters’ lists are (A Member: Absolutely.) at the present time?

The Speaker: Chief Minister to reply.

135 The Chief Minister: I do not think we are going back to a property vote just yet, Mr Speaker, so that will not be part of my investigation. (Interjections)

The Speaker: Order! Chief Minister. 140 The Chief Minister: I can only repeat again, Mr Speaker – it is all very well the Hon. Member railing against Government – it is the responsibility of individuals to make sure that their names are on the list. The process that we are going to go through – and I am repeating myself now – is to bring the voting list up to date, excluding those people who have died, who have moved 145 away, and indeed whom the Hon. Member himself over the years has complained about. We are trying to do that at the moment, but ultimately the responsibility still lies with the individual to make sure their name is put forward. I am not going round road after road round the Isle of Man to check whether they are all on the voters’ list. (Interjection by Mr Karran) It would help, if the Hon. Member knows that there 150 are deficiencies, that people are left off ... that Members themselves identify those deficiencies and let the office know about it, and we will make sure that that is checked out.

The Speaker: Let’s try not to be repetitive. Mr Thomas, Hon. Member. 155 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Congratulations to Government on having established Mr Turner in his role. It was excellent also that he invited Members to come and discuss it in the terms of reference and I have got full confidence that that report will be very helpful, given this discussion. 160 Will the Chief Minister agree with me that the main message from this Question is ‘If you are not on the electoral register you will not even have the chance not to vote next year in the two very important elections; moreover your neighbour effectively will have two votes – and think what that might mean’? So, please, could the Chief Minister go out and make that as the main message, that people should get on the vote? 165 The Chief Minister: Yes, absolutely. The Hon. Member is absolutely correct, Mr Speaker. We will be doing our best to highlight and publicise the voters’ lists over the next few months to make sure as many people as possible are made aware of their responsibility to put their names on the list, and we are working hard to make sure that the lists that we do end up with next year 170 for the Election are more accurate than they have ever been before.

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The Speaker: Mr Houghton.

Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr Speaker. 175 Will the Chief Minister, if he has been properly briefed before this morning’s Question ...? Has he been made aware that the forms that people ...? An awful lot of people submitted their forms and their names did not go on the voters’ list, and that could be – and I am saying could be – due to the fact that some of the administration of the voters’ lists was transferred to the Post Office as an agent and then the paperwork transferred back into Government, to the 180 Economic Affairs Division, and papers may have been lost. Is he aware that this administration was shipped out of Government to the Post Office? Is he aware of that much? (Interjection by Mr Quirk)

The Speaker: Chief Minister. 185 The Chief Minister: I am aware that the Post Office has been involved, Mr Speaker.

Mr Houghton: There we are.

190 The Speaker: Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder, would the Ard-shirveishagh not agree that this is not about railing against Government; this is about democracy? Would he not agree that none of us want you to go down the road from Rome – 195 The Chief Minister: Then why did you ask?

Mr Karran: – as far as voters’ lists are concerned, but where there is a Council estate road that has less than 20% of the people on the voters’ list, where they must all be owned by the 200 council, with their rents being paid for ... And would he not agree that it is not about the property vote; it is about how we used to run the voters’ lists on this Island, where you had your marital status, your owner status and your tenancy status on the voters’ lists, with no computers, three people? And will you hold these people to account (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) to get it properly done how it should be done when taxpayers are paying for it? (Mr Houghton: 205 Hear, hear.)

The Speaker: Chief Minister to reply.

The Chief Minister: I repeat again, Mr Speaker: if the Member knows of an area in Douglas 210 where only 20% of the –

Mr Karran: It’s endemic throughout the Island!

The Speaker: Hon. Member! 215 The Chief Minister: If the Hon. Member who has raised this point knows a street in Douglas where only 20% of people are on the voters’ list, then he should come and talk to the officers and we will try and make sure if there is in fact a problem there. Just making these wild accusations with no evidence to back it up is not helpful in trying to resolve the issue. 220 The Speaker: Final supplementary, Mr Malarkey.

Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr Speaker.

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Does the Chief Minister not agree with me that the main problem throughout the whole 225 voting system has been the fact that at by-elections you were unable to put your name back on the voting list; at a national election you can put your name on the voting list up to two weeks before? A simple amendment to the Act to allow people to go on, if it is a by-election, up to two weeks before the election would have rectified nearly all these problems. With national elections coming up and candidates telling people on the door that they are not on the electoral 230 roll, the candidates can still put themselves on the electoral roll.

The Speaker: Chief Minister.

The Chief Minister: Yes, the Hon. Member is absolutely right.

1.2. Gas prices – Response to recent changes

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Chief Minister:

What action he intends to take to respond to the recent changes in gas prices? 235 The Speaker: Question 2. Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder, I ask the Question standing in my name: what action does he intend to take in response to the recent changes in gas prices? 240 The Speaker: I call on the Chief Minister to reply.

The Chief Minister: Mr Speaker, with effect from 1st January 2015 there has been in force a regulatory agreement in relation to the supply of gas between Manx Gas, as the monopoly 245 supplier, and the Office of Fair Trading, the Treasury and the Department of Economic Development. This regulatory agreement provides binding but light-touch regulation. Whilst it fixes overall profit levels, it leaves Manx Gas free to manage its business as it thinks fit, provided of course that it does not increase its profits above the agreed limit of 9.9% of the capital employed. 250 The OFT has scrutinised the changes and has confirmed that the change is intended to be revenue neutral for Manx Gas. The OFT has also confirmed that the new banding structure will see some consumers pay more for their gas and some pay a lot less. Overall, however, no consumer will pay more than £25 annually than they do today. Because of the new lower tariff costs, heating will now be cheaper over the winter months. Those people who are the lowest- 255 volume users of gas, including those on cooking and gas-fire tariffs, will see no change at all. For those reasons, it is not proposed at this stage to take any action. The OFT will, however, be monitoring the situation and will make representations to Manx Gas under the regulatory agreement should it become necessary.

260 The Speaker: Supplementary, Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder, would the Ard-shirveishagh not agree that it is quite alarming, when I look at the facts from 9th September, allowing for the gas, that gas consumers pay £961 for the same equivalent gas as a consumer in Liverpool for £548, Belfast at £514, and 265 Dublin at £549? And allowing for the fact that we have a situation where Belfast and Dublin are

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supplied from the same gas pipeline, how does he justify the agreement that has been allowed to be agreed with the company, which is a monopoly?

The Speaker: Chief Minister. 270 The Chief Minister: Mr Speaker, the Hon. Member has raised these figures in another place. I have no ability at this stage to know whether these figures are accurate or not, but if those figures are, I would suggest the Hon. Member takes those figures to the Office of Fair Trading and asks them to verify them and then take the appropriate action on the back of that. 275 The Speaker: Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft.

Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Could I firstly ask the Chief Minister what progress he has made in being able to circulate 280 under what regulation or legislation the regulatory agreement has been signed, which he promised to do last week? Secondly, the £25 difference that is being quoted, that nobody will be paying more, or there will be only a £25 maximum differential – would he meet with people who can show that their bills are actually going to be an awful lot more of a differential than £25? 285 I was under the impression that the standing order was meant to cover infrastructure costs, so could he confirm what additional infrastructure costs Manx Gas have had that justify this increase in the standing charge?

The Speaker: Chief Minister. 290 The Chief Minister: First of all, Mr Speaker, I have to apologise to the Hon. Member: I thought the response that I promised last week had actually gone out. I only discovered yesterday it had not gone, but it will go out today to give the Hon. Member the answer. I do apologise for that. 295 As far as the infrastructure is concerned, again I do not have that information to hand this morning but I am sure the OFT will circulate a reply to that. Likewise, I answered this Question in good faith on the information which has been given to me by the OFT that there will only be a variation of £25 one way or the other on the bills. If the Hon. Member, or indeed any other Member, has evidence that these figures are incorrect, then I 300 would suggest rather than coming to me they should go to the OFT, who are in fact the policemen of this particular agreement and will take appropriate action.

The Speaker: Mr Houghton.

305 Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I ask the Chief Minister who does he think he and Manx Gas are kidding when they are introducing an increased standing charge now while gas prices are down, and then when gas prices increase those people will be paying more? This is an increase of charges by Manx Gas, who have hoodwinked the Government on this matter in order to get their costs up, so that 310 when the gas prices increase – sometime soon, hopefully longer, but when they do – the public will be paying much more. Who has been hoodwinked here, Chief Minister? Is it you, is it the public, or is it Manx Gas winning all the way to the bank?

The Speaker: Chief Minister, more of a comment. 315 The Chief Minister: It is an observation, Mr Speaker.

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This agreement is between Manx Gas on the one hand and the OFT, Treasury and the Department of Economic Development on the other, and they are monitoring this agreement closely. I have made it very clear in another place that, as far as I am concerned, if in fact the 320 terms and the spirit of this agreement are breached by Manx Gas in the manner that the Hon. Member suggests, or indeed in any other manner which is discussed ... if the spirit of this agreement is not complied with, then we will be looking very seriously and very quickly at bringing in a proper regulatory structure to deal with the problem.

325 The Speaker: Mrs Beecroft.

Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Could the Chief Minister clarify ...? I appreciate when he says the spirit and the legality of the agreement, if it was breached in any way, but if we have been misinformed about this £25 330 differential, would that break the spirit of the agreement in his view; and, if so, is he prepared to act quickly on this? If he is, does he have the legal powers to act quickly if it is a binding agreement?

The Speaker: Chief Minister, I think you did answer that. 335 The Chief Minister: I have answered the point: we can move quickly if indeed the terms of the agreement have been breached.

The Speaker: Hon. Member, Mr Karran. 340 Mr Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder, would the Ard-shirveishagh not agree that he actually has the sanction and ... have to have the agreement as far as who is going to be the Office of Fair Trading Chairman and who is going to be the Minister of the Economic Development Department? Does he not feel that he is trying to play Pontius Pilate over this thing? Would he 345 not agree that maybe the better way forward is, instead of this regulation, that we allow a situation, allowing for a state monopoly, that they should be able to charge 10% over the average price in the UK or in the Irish Republic as a far better way forward? Would he also not agree that with the agreement, which is on the return of capital employ at 9.9%... does this actually include the money that is spent in the retail part of it, where people’s 350 boilers are purchased by them ... is allowed in the agreement as far as them being able to use that as a justification for getting even more money out of the poor consumers on the Island?

The Speaker: Before I call on the Chief Minister, I have got four more people wishing to ask supplementary questions – these must be kept short or we are never going to get through any 355 other Questions this morning. Chief Minister.

The Chief Minister: Mr Speaker, I am repeating myself again and again. The figure of 9.9% is return on capital employed. What goes to make up that figure ... I do not have the details with 360 me, but I can only repeat again: it is monitored on a regular basis by the OFT and if there is any breach in what the original agreement was we will respond to it.

The Speaker: Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Quirk.

365 Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I ask the Chief Minister then, would he not concur with my thoughts that Hon. Members received a letter on 9th September ...? I accept that some of the new Members may not have received that letter. There was an open invitation. Would he not agree with me that an open

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invitation to meet any Member, from the managing director of Manx Gas, if they had any 370 difficulties ...? That is an avenue that I would encourage Members to use. Would he not agree with me?

The Speaker: Chief Minister.

375 The Chief Minister: I thank the Hon. Member for his intervention. There is a big responsibility on Manx Gas and the chief executive of Manx Gas to make sure the public fully understand the rationale behind the steps that they have taken recently and what the implications are. It would be most appropriate, in fact, I think, if the chief executive did arrange to meet Members to give them a direct briefing and to give Members the chance to 380 raise these points directly with the chief executive of Manx Gas, who will be in a much better position to answer the points that have been raised this morning.

The Speaker: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.

385 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Would the Chief Minister agree that in actual fact the Council of Ministers’ and his personal hands are tied for four years unless there is actually a breach of the agreement? Secondly, given his expressed intention to monitor things closely, does the Chief Minister agree with me that it would be very helpful if the OFT could actually redact the 2011 Oxera 390 report and publish it, so that questions like the one that Mr Karran just raised could be answered with more information? Thirdly, does the Chief Minister agree with me that setting up a working group to consider cross-utilities regulation – which I am sure the Departments I am in would support – would actually be very helpful, given that the reason we are in this mess, in my view, is because of the 395 fact that the cost of proper regulation was considered too great?

The Speaker: Chief Minister.

The Chief Minister: As far as the report is concerned, Mr Speaker, that is something we 400 would have to look at. Likewise, I think broadening this Question out now to bring broader regulation of energy into play is not really relevant to this Question. Sorry, I have forgotten the first part of ...

405 The Speaker: I think we will move on, Chief Minister.

The Chief Minister: Yes, I have answered all these questions again and again, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: Yes ... [Inaudible] 410 Mrs Beecroft.

Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think the first part of previous question was about it being a four-year binding contract –

415 The Chief Minister: Oh, yes, sorry about that.

Mrs Beecroft: – and if they do not break any conditions in that contract then there is nothing really that can be done. That comes back to this £25 differential that has been stated, because that can hardly be in the terms of that agreement. Surely the Chief Minister would agree with 420 me that that cannot be in it, because the agreement was signed before that statement was made. So the £25 differential can only be the spirit of the agreement. Could the Chief Minister

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confirm what he can do when the spirit of this agreement has been broken? Does he have any powers?

425 The Speaker: Chief Minister.

The Chief Minister: I apologise again for my bad memory this morning – sorry I missed the first part of that question. Yes, it is a four-year agreement, which ... All things being equal, if the terms of that 430 agreement are being met then there is nothing that can be done to break it. However, if there is clear evidence that the terms of that agreement have been broken, then immediate action can be taken. We do not need to run off the agreement before any steps can be taken. They can be taken at an early point to try and rectify the situation, and I can give Hon. Members my assurance that if there is clear evidence that the terms of this agreement have been broken then 435 we will be looking very carefully, with the OFT again, to see what remedial action can be taken quite quickly.

The Speaker: The Hon. Member for Malew and Santon, Mr Cregeen.

440 Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Would the Chief Minister not agree there is a very valid point that with Manx Gas offering interest-free credit on their boilers they could actually be hiding the cost in the profit that they are making, and that should be investigated? Also, would he not agree that he should request the Department of Infrastructure to review 445 the provision of heating in local authority housing, because we are very much aware of fuel poverty on the Isle of Man?

The Speaker: Chief Minister.

450 The Chief Minister: I am sure the Department of Infrastructure monitors this on a regular basis, Mr Speaker. And once again, if the Hon. Member has evidence along the lines he has just referred to, I would suggest he refers it to the Office of Fair Trading. It seems that some Members in this Hon. Court are unaware of the role the OFT play. They 455 have a key role in this. That is why we set up the OFT in the first place and why we have a political chairman of it – to make sure that they take on board the points raised by the Members, so they can transfer those to the chief executive of Manx Gas.

The Speaker: Final supplementary question, Mr Karran. 460 Mr Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder, would the Ard-shirveishagh not agree that once again we have allowed a monopoly to absolutely rip off the consumer? Would he not also agree that it does not just have detrimental effects on my constituents but on everyone else’s constituents (Interjection by Mr Quirk) on the Island and it does actually 465 affect the economic environment for business to flourish when you have got a situation where gas charges are 70% plus dearer than the adjacent isle?

The Speaker: I rule the question out of order. It is making an opinion.

470 The Chief Minister: Absolutely.

Mr Karran: No, no, it’s –

The Speaker: It is not seeking information.

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TREASURY

1.3. Commercial office accommodation – Empty premises and initiatives to increase take-up

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Treasury Minister:

What recent survey he has made of the amount of empty commercial office accommodation on the Island; what percentage of available commercial office accommodation is vacant; and what new initiatives he has in place to increase take-up of commercial office accommodation on the Island?

475 The Speaker: Question 3. Hon. Member, Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder, Treasury Minister: what recent survey has he made on the amount of empty commercial office accommodation on the Island; what percentage of availability of commercial office accommodation is vacant; and what new initiatives has he in 480 place to increase the take-up of commercial office accommodation on the Island?

The Speaker: I call on the Treasury Minister, the Hon. Member Mr Teare.

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Teare): Thank you, sir. 485 Treasury has not undertaken any survey, but earlier this year the Departments of Economic Development and Infrastructure jointly completed a comprehensive study of employment, land and property across the Island. A copy of the full report was laid before the 21st July sitting of Tynwald for Hon. Members’ information. The report showed that approximately 224,000 m2 of commercial office space was available 490 on the Island, with 14 – one four – per cent of the available accommodation vacant. Regarding the latter part of the Hon. Member’s Question, the Department of Economic Development is taking the lead for developing the economy. There are many initiatives underway and planned in the areas I have just mentioned. For example, only last week in another place the Enterprise Development Scheme was approved, (A Member: Hear, hear.) with 495 only the hon. questioner and his Liberal Vannin colleague not voting in favour – a very significant £50 million initiative designed to broaden the range of financial support potentially available to businesses, thus greatly enhancing the Island’s competitive position. Considerable new business is anticipated from this initiative and new business, combined with growth in existing companies, should help to take up the vacant commercial office accommodation. There is also a 500 huge effort to diversify and grow the economy, and by doing this it will create a demand for employment land and property, including commercial office space. Thank you, sir.

Mrs Beecroft: Point of order, Mr Speaker. 505 The Speaker: Mrs Beecroft.

Mrs Beecroft: Could the Treasury Minister confirm that he is actually correct when he says about the voting on the Enterprise Development Fund? 510 The Speaker: Treasury Minister.

The Minister: I am positive I am correct, because the two Hon. Members walked out when it came to the vote – just before it came to the vote.

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515 The Speaker: Mr Karran, supplementary.

Mr Karran: Would the Shirveishagh like to also tell us of the Invisimail scam, as far as the taxpayer is concerned? Would he also like to tell us about the situation of the concern about the fact that there is something like 30% of office accommodation ...? It is in Hansard, Hon. 520 Member. And would the Minister not agree that all of us would like to see the idea of getting more business on the Island, but making sure that we ring-fence and protect the taxpayer’s money as far as this issue is concerned? So what is he going to do as far as the problem that we have at the moment with 30% of our office accommodation? What tax initiatives is he going to take in order to deal with this issue? 525 The Speaker: The first part of the question is out of order. The second part is making a comment. The third part is seeking information – and you may answer, sir.

Mr Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder, it is not out of order. (A Member: Ooh!) The Government – 530 The Speaker: Hon. Member, the Chair will decide what is and what is not in order.

Two Members: Hear, hear.

535 Mr Karran: Absolutely scandalous!

The Speaker: Thank you, Hon. Member. Mr Teare.

540 The Minister: It is also a scandal the way that the Hon. Member distorts the facts. We conducted an employment land survey, which was done by two Departments of Government, and as I said in my original Answer, the vacant space was actually 14 – one four – per cent, and I did spell out one four per cent, not the 30% that he is alluding to.

545 Mr Karran: Point of order.

The Speaker: What is your point, sir?

Mr Karran: I am here about empty commercial office accommodation, not employment land. 550 Tell the facts, tell the truth, and let’s get sorted.

The Speaker: Hon. Member, that is not a point of order; it is a further supplementary question, which you will have a chance to pose at the proper time. Mr Teare, you may resume. 555 The Minister: Thank you. I did say in the original Answer ‘with 14% of the available accommodation vacant’. How much clearer can I be? I am afraid it goes to illustrate once again that the Liberal Vannin party is the enemy of enterprise. 560 Mrs Beecroft: Oh, dear me! Dear me!

The Speaker: Mr Karran.

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565 Mr Karran: Would the Treasury Minister not agree that we are talking about commercial office accommodation? I hope that he will revisit his figures as far as the reality as far as his figures are concerned. Would he also not agree that the track record as far as business is concerned, when we have tried to stop the likes of the abusive monopoly of off-Island transport costs ... (Interjection) We 570 voted against the interests of the consumer –

A Member: Question.

The Speaker: Hon. Member – 575 Mr Karran: Would he also not agree that the gas rip-off we have got now –

The Speaker: Hon Member!

580 Mr Karran: – has an effect on the viability with energy costs?

HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE

1.4. Blue Badges – Recognition in other jurisdictions

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

What action he has taken to resolve difficulty with recognition of Blue Badges issued on the Island in other jurisdictions?

The Speaker: We move on to Question 4. Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder, I ask the Question standing in my name: what action has he 585 taken to resolve the difficulties with recognition of the Blue Badges issued on the Island in other jurisdictions?

The Speaker: I call on the Minister for Health and Social Care, Mr Quayle.

590 The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr Speaker. For the last three months my officers have been endeavouring to establish the exact legal position with regard to the use of Isle of Man Blue Badge parking permits outside of the Isle of Man. The most recent advice we received, on 20th October of this year, is that the UK local authorities are under no legal obligation to accept Manx Blue Badges. That said, there is no bar 595 to a UK local authority deciding to accept a badge from any country in the world outside of the European Union. The Department believes it is reasonable to assume that a significant proportion of UK local authorities will indeed accept Isle of Man Blue Badges, and in reality this has been the case until recently, where we have received four complaints over the past 12 months from Isle of Man 600 residents who have had difficulties in using their Blue Badges in the United Kingdom. We are writing to all 500-plus UK local authorities to establish their position on this matter. We would advise that those Manx residents intending to visit Britain should check with the local authorities whose areas they want to visit or travel through before they arrive. In the meantime, the matter will be raised again through our work with the British-Irish Council.

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605 The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Can the Shirveishagh inform this House about the timeline in order to resolve this issue, as it is causing lots of distress to different individuals who require this status, particularly bringing their children off Island as far as medical treatment. 610 The Speaker: Mr Quayle.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am, sadly, unable to give a timeline. We are writing to 500 local authorities to advise them 615 of this, so we are doing our utmost. I think it is worth pointing out that, whilst I have every sympathy for the people, there are 4,006 Blue Badges for Isle of Man residents and we have had four complaints, and those four complainants, I am led to believe, have all had their money reimbursed by the UK council when they have received a fine. 620 I appreciate that it must be very upsetting for someone to get a car parking fine when they use a Manx disabled badge. We will do our utmost to try and get this sorted out as soon as possible, but sadly it is not, Mr Speaker, us going to one region and having one meeting to sort it out. There are over 500 areas that we would have to do that with.

1.5. Cannabis and derivatives – Medical use

The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mrs Beecroft) to ask the Minister for Health and Social 625 Care:

Whether he supports the introduction of cannabis or cannabis derivatives for medical use?

The Speaker: Question 5. Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft.

Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Mr Speaker. 630 Could I ask the Minister for Health and Social Care whether he supports the introduction of cannabis or cannabis derivatives for medical use?

The Speaker: I call on the Minister to reply.

635 The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Department will consider supporting the use of any medication, irrespective of its origin, that has a proven evidential basis. A number of preparations derived from cannabis are undergoing clinical trials and some already have product licences as restriction-only medicines for specific conditions. The decision- 640 making process regarding inclusion of these drugs for use in the Isle of Man will be exactly the same as for any other medication. It will be based on evidence of clinical effectiveness and evaluation for use by authorities such as the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, with input from the Clinical Recommendations Committee and the Drugs and Therapeutics Committee. There are no plans to support the introduction of unlicensed unproven medications, 645 irrespective of their origin. I should add, and to make it clear to Hon. Members, that nothing which I have said just now changes the fact that the possession and the supply of cannabis is a crime. However, I am clear that where there are clinically proven treatments that include cannabis or its derivatives as part

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of a medically effective treatment pathway this should be supported through proper supervised 650 and prescribed routes. I do not advocate individuals either growing cannabis privately for their own use or deciding without proper medical advice or support that this is an appropriate treatment for their condition.

655 The Speaker: Mrs Beecroft, supplementary.

Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank the Minister for his response with all the details contained in it but could he just clarify which drugs are actually going through the process at the moment. I think he said 660 towards the beginning of his response that there were several that were going through the system right now; could he clarify which those are?

The Speaker: Minister to reply.

665 The Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker. My apologies if I do not pronounce this correctly, but Sativex is probably the only licensed version of cannabis origin, it is only indicated for muscle spasms in patients with multiple sclerosis. However, despite its licence, NICE recommends there is insufficient evidence of efficiency. 670 The Speaker: We turn to Question 6 – (Interjection by Mr Singer) I beg your pardon, Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Singer.

Mr Singer: Thank you. 675 Is the Minister aware that in relation to the first part of the Question, which is supporting the introduction of cannabis, the Multiple Sclerosis Society itself has given a policy statement which says that this is against the use of the cannabis plant, as such? And I am sure the Minister is aware – but could he confirm that Sativex actually is prescribed on the Island for people with certain symptoms of multiple sclerosis and that the one problem 680 with Sativex is that it is too expensive?

The Speaker: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker, and I thank the Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Singer, 685 for making this Hon. House aware of the comments from the Multiple Sclerosis Society, I was not aware actually of the statement that had been made, so I thank him for bringing it to my attention. Given his previous life as a pharmacist, (Laughter) I am sure he, better than me, knows what is being prescribed on the Isle of Man.

690 The Speaker: Final supplementary, Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder, would the Shirveishagh not agree that we had the consultant, Dr ... [Inaudible] who was on the Island for many years, one of the few people who actually had a licence from the UK government to administer cannabis, so the issue is not a new 695 issue? Would he also not agree that the fact is now that the judiciary have taken the decision that it is a defence when in consideration of sentencing if the person is taking cannabis for medical conditions? That has been proven several years ago in the Isle of Man. Why do we not get off the fence on this subject? 700

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The Speaker: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think my last paragraph of my original Answer stated clearly the facts from a legal point of 705 view and what would be accepted and what was not. So I was very clear to state that people growing cannabis for their own individual use was not legal and was not recommended by the medical profession as being appropriate for their treatment.

EDUCATION AND CHILDREN

1.6. The Nunnery – Rent

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask Mr Malarkey a Member for Education and Children:

What the new rental agreement for use of the Nunnery is; and who is funding the rent due?

The Speaker: Question 6, the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran.

710 Mr Karran: Question to the Oltey yn Rheynn Ynsee: what is the new rental agreement for the use of the Nunnery, and who is funding the rental agreement that is due?

The Speaker: I call on the Member for the Department, Hon. Member, Mr Malarkey.

715 A Member for Education and Children (Mr Malarkey): Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Department has entered into a licence of occupation with the International Centre for Technology Ltd for the period 1st October 2015 through to 31st July 2016. Under the licence the Isle of Man College will continue to occupy part of the main Nunnery mansion house building for the purpose of its higher education provision. 720 The licence fee is a peppercorn sum of £1.

The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder, thanking the Minister for his reply, (Mr Malarkey: Member.) 725 (Laughter and Interjections) would the Member give assurances that there is no tie-in long term as far as the expenditure of his Department as far as paying rent for the Nunnery is concerned?

The Speaker: Mr Malarkey, reply, sir.

730 Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr Speaker. As I have said in the statement, we have undertaken a contract from 1st October 2015 to 31st July 2016. The Department will be reviewing this in January once it monitors the progress of ICT at the Nunnery.

735 Mr Quirk: They should pay.

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ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT

1.7. International organisations – Promotion of Island as location for headquarters

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Member for Economic Development:

What plans he has to promote the Isle of Man as a location for the headquarters of international organisations; and whether he has plans for other types of organisations setting up on the Island?

The Speaker: Question 7. Hon. Member, Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder, I ask the Minister for Economic Development: what plans he has to promote the Isle of Man as a location for the headquarters of international organisations; 740 and whether he has plans for other types of organisations to set up on the Island?

The Speaker: I call on the Minister for Economic Development, Mr Skelly.

The Minister for Economic Development (Mr Skelly): Gura mie eu, Loayreyder. 745 The Isle of Man has successfully attracted the headquarters of international businesses in a wide range of sectors, including financial services, manufacturing and e-business. These businesses employ a large number of people locally and many are continuing to grow in terms of revenues, staff numbers and taxes paid on the Island. The research undertaken as part of the Vision 2020 showed that there continue to be good 750 opportunities to attract more headquarters to the Island, particularly in high growth, small to medium-sized businesses. A key element of the Vision 2020 strategy is the new Enterprise Development Scheme, which we believe will greatly aid our efforts to attract businesses from a wide range of sectors to the Island. We are actively pursuing these opportunities, including biomedical, digital currency, Finn tech, crowd funding, commercial banking and family offices. 755 A vital part of this work is marketing the Isle of Man globally so that businesses know what we can offer. We, both Government and the private sector, have substantially increased our international marketing efforts, combining an improved website, expanded media coverage, targeted business visits to key locations from the British Islands to Asia. These efforts are working as can be shown by the fact that the economy is more diverse than ever. 760 Loayreyder, I hope this demonstrates that we are actively promoting the Island as a great location for headquarters for international organisations and will greatly aid our efforts to grow the economy locally.

The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Karran. 765 Mr Karran: Thanking the Shirveishagh for his reply, would the Shirveishagh consider that what we tried, it must be 30 years ago now, the issues of maybe some of these political organisations, the likes of the CPA, British Irish Council ... what is his viewpoint as far as social finance organisations, the legislation as far as foundation legislation? Have we got any further as 770 far as bringing them into reality to diversify the base as far as the employment and economic stimulation to the Manx economy?

The Speaker: Minister to reply, please.

775 The Minister: Gura mie eu.

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Yes, I would agree with the Hon. Member, picking up particularly the point with regard to social finance. I do strongly believe that the Isle of Man is very well positioned in this area; not least of all we obviously offer a very simple, stable, competitive tax strategy. He mentioned the word foundation taxation planning of which I am aware that we have some very good strong 780 legislation that supports that type of activity that could be based here in the Isle of Man. It is something that we will be exploring to see how we can actively promote the Isle of Man. Again, what I would say is the partnership that we have here with the private sector is of vital importance. We as a Government will promote it, but we will work with the private sector to try and attract more of that business because this will, if we can attract the social finance industry 785 to the Isle of Man ... it will help improve our profile dramatically.

The Speaker: Supplementary, Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder, would the Shirveishagh also look at the issue of these 790 international organisations? I mean we have lost the opportunity of the British-Irish Council which has gone to Edinburgh, but will he look at that area as well, especially allowing for the fact there is a ‘no’ Answer as far as Question 3 from the Treasury Minister as far as this important issue of empty space in the office accommodation? Could he give some idea of how he is going to try and promote organisations and businesses 795 to fill these offices that are now vacant?

The Speaker: Minister.

The Minister: Gura mie eu, Loayreyder. 800 Yes, in terms of the international organisations, the Hon. Member mentioned the British-Irish Council of which I have a ministerial meeting later this week, regarding creative industries, which is a new emerging sector for the Isle of Man, which again I believe we have got great opportunities to grow. However, I have engaged with regard to my counterparts, particularly in the UK at the 805 Cabinet Office/Treasury level, to discuss social finance in terms of a strategy, then a policy that we could adopt that will be effective in trying to attract these international organisations to the Isle of Man.

1.8. TT World Series – Expenditure and progress

The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to ask the Minister for Economic Development:

In relation to the proposed TT World series; (i) how much has been expended by the Department to date; and (ii) what progress has been made so far?

The Speaker: Question 8, Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Houghton.

810 Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I beg leave to ask the Question to the Minister of Economic Development: in relation to the proposed TT World series, how much has been expended by the Department to date, and what progress has been made so far?

815 The Speaker: I call on the Minister, Mr Skelly to reply.

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The Minister for Economic Development (Mr Skelly): Gura mie eu, Loayreyder. I thank the Hon. Member for his very timely Question, as it gives an opportunity to explain the decision and of course the press release that was just issued last week. So firstly, with regard to the first part of the Question, I can confirm that the total 820 expenditure to date stands at £276,360. This expenditure covers all fees and expenses paid to the Sports Consultancy as well as the costs of advertising the tender process and producing brochures relating to it. Much of this expenditure relates to the research into the TT Series concept dating back to 2010, which showed the idea had merit and warranted further work, hence earlier this year we 825 commenced the procurement process to seek a private promoter with the right skills and resources to help us grow the TT and Classic TT, as well as launch a new, ambitious international TT Series. With regard to the second part of the Question, in short, we have learned a great deal in the last year and much progress has been made. The Department considered the bids carefully, and 830 were unanimous in our decisions. We do not think the time is right for the TT Series. At the same time, we believe there remain great opportunities to grow the TT and the Classic TT by working with a private promoter partner with the right expertise, right commercial acumen, innovation and private investment. As a result, we believe we can deliver growth in both the local economy and Government revenues. 835 This is also consistent with Government policy to deliver a smaller, simpler Government. Therefore, we will soon commence a new procurement process to find the right promoter partner to help us grow the TT and Classic TT. Government must be seen to be fair to all potential bidders, so given this is different in scope to the previous procurement process, it is necessary to commence a new process. We expect to be able to complete this process prior to 840 TT 2016, which will enable us to maintain the momentum we have already built in our plans to date. Loayreyder, I believe this is the right way forward to deliver best value to the taxpayer, grow our economy and respect the TT’s loyal fan base.

845 The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Houghton.

Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Well, if any body would want to believe that from the Department, they would need to go where we are all going – to oblivion. (Interjection) 850 Mr Speaker, how can the Department say they have learned lessons after wasting £276,000 on a complete non-starter, right at the beginning? Many people had advised the Minister of this, me included, through Questions in this Hon. House. Why has he run it so far, to then say he is looking for another partner to move the TT forward? What on earth is his thinking in this, Mr Speaker? 855 The Speaker: Reply, sir.

The Minister: Gura mie eu, Loayreyder. I can understand the Hon. Member’s point, this is an awful lot of money without a doubt. 860 This is an awful lot of money that was spent over a long period of time. A considerable amount of research, evidence and data has actually been collected, and the real question is, has this been a valuable exercise? I would contend that yes, this has been a valuable exercise and this has given us more evidence that – and in particular, whilst we are going to actually shelve the TT Series concept at this moment in time – we believe there are still significant growth 865 opportunities in the local events, and we are now more convinced than ever that we must put this in a partner with a private promoter to actually effect that benefit going forward.

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The Speaker: Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft.

870 Mrs Beecroft: Could I ask the Minister to provide a breakdown of the £276,360, please, and maybe circulate that to all Members, because I am sure everybody would be interested in the breakdown of that figure. And he refers to having now got a lot of data that will be useful. Could he confirm what that data is that he has collected/collated and what use it is going to be, how he is actually going to 875 use that particular data going forward?

The Speaker: Reply, sir.

The Minister: Gura mie eu, Loayreyder. 880 Yes, I will see if we can gain the breakdown of that expense so as to share that with Members. It will be very helpful, I am sure, for all. In terms of the information and data that has been collated, it started of course with the research, which was the feasibility study and in there, there was, I think, clear evidence, as when we continued to progress this, to actually test the market. 885 That is exactly what we have done, Hon. Members. We have really tested the market as to whether we can take this forward, and whilst we believe – and I just reiterate the points here – that a private promoter, working in partnership with Government, can actually grow our local economy. It was always going to be a high risk situation, but I do believe that we have gained some valuable information and what this does do, that information that we have gained allows 890 us to move forward with a rapid procurement process, so do not lose momentum and we will be able to conclude this before TT 2016.

The Speaker: Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Quirk.

895 Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I just ask the Minister – I think you have virtually answered it – but could I ask here, regarding the data you have already received and the tenders for that particular document, can I just seek reassurance, which I think you have already given actually, that we will have to go back to a re-tender exercise, costing us quite a lot of money, and for the local element we will be able 900 to do that quite quickly.

The Speaker: Minister.

The Minister: Gura mie eu, Loayreyder. 905 Yes, I thank the Hon. Member for his question, and yes, we will have to do this in a fairly swift fashion, a much more refined process that will certainly have very minimal cost, because we have already conducted most of the work ahead of time. Again, I think the information that we have acquired to date will help us to do that in a very swift fashion. 910 The Speaker: Final supplementary, Mr Houghton.

Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I have been appalled at the answers that the Minister has given today. There is £276,000 915 wasted on a non-starter. Mr Speaker, could the Minister say what he thinks about how many hip operations would that have paid for; or in relation to the Treasury Minister’s reduction of the age-related tax allowance to a thousand pounds, does he realise that in the average payment that pensioners are now paying – £80 bills, by average – some more, very few less – that they were not paying

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920 before, that this amounts to 3,200 pensioners’ equivalent of money that has just been put down the sink (The Speaker: Hon. Member – ) that they have had to pay out of their pensions? It is totally unacceptable.

The Speaker: Hon. Member, your comments no doubt will be noted by the Minister but they 925 are not questions.

Question 1.9. to be answered in writing

Question 9 from Mr Houghton will be answered in writing by the Minister for Home Affairs, by mutual agreement.

1.10. Isle of Man Constabulary – Number of officers leaving and reasons

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for Home Affairs:

How many police officers left the service in each of the last three years broken down by the period of time served and the reasons for leaving?

The Speaker: In relation to Question 10, the Written Answer to a very similar Question by the 930 Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Hall, was circulated yesterday in accordance with Standing Orders and is therefore with Members, should the Minister choose to refer to it. So Question 10, I call the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder, I only received the Answer as I came into the Chamber 935 today. I don’t know about other Hon. Members.

The Speaker: It was circulated, Hon. Member, electronically – the Clerk I think can confirm that.

940 Mr Karran: Oh right, I have not seen it. The Question is for Home Affairs: how many police officers left the service in each of the last three years, broken down by the period of time served and the reasons for leaving?

The Speaker: I call on the Minister for Home Affairs, the Hon. Member, Mr Watterson. 945 The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Watterson): Yes, Mr Speaker. The figures requested by the Hon. Member have been circulated in a response to a similar Written Question submitted by the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Hall, but over five years rather than three years, requested in relation to this particular Question. 950 The reasons for leaving are divided into categories: resignation, ill-health, and retirement and then subdivided into the circumstances surrounding the reason to leave. As Mr Speaker, you have said that these have been circulated and there are four pages of detailed information which I thought would be far more useful in a tabular format rather than trying to read it out, when it might not make a great deal of sense. 955 Thank you.

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[Note: The tables referred to are shown in answer to Written Question 2.1.]

The Speaker: We turn to Question 11 ... A supplementary, Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: I was just going to ask the Shirveishagh Cooishyn Sthie, the Minister for Home 960 Affairs, does he have any concerns with the haemorrhage of staff, especially experienced staff, having an effect as far as the Isle of Man Constabulary is concerned? Does he not have concerns at the way that we are having to re-employ members in the Financial Crimes Unit after retirement? What is actually happening about succession planning to get continuity to keep this Island a low-crime area? 965 The Speaker: Reply, sir.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker. No, I do not. Most of the retirements, as Members will see from the response, have been 970 retirements, and they are expected and they are planned for. There are, of course, other reasons for other people leaving. The Chief Constable has been quite clear and I have said in this place and another place about making sure that we have the right quality of staff, not just quantity, and that is about not being able to just have people on desk jobs any more. They have to be fit and active police officers. 975 In terms of the FCU and officers being brought back on zero-hours contracts, that is happening and that has been outlined before as well. That is because we are having some significant financial crime investigations at the moment, and whilst we have got a fully staffed Financial Crime Unit these are additional staff to support and assist with that. They bring their experience with them. That is a really helpful resource to have, especially at times of significant 980 demand, and we would be doing it irrespective of the current situation.

The Speaker: A further supplementary, Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder, would the Shirveishagh just go back and check about the 985 ridiculous amount of overtime some staff are having to work? Will the Shirveishagh consider asking the Police Federation union to consider doing a confidential survey at no cost to the taxpayer of the reasons why many of the members of staff in the Isle of Man Constabulary are leaving, as it might be a different viewpoint he might get as far as the reasons for their demise ... of so many leaving the Isle of Man Constabulary? 990 The Speaker: Minister.

The Minister: I think the Hon. Member is trying to make insinuations there about why people are leaving, but what I have are the facts, and people who are leaving for reasons of discontent 995 would be resignations rather than retirements, and the number of resignations rather than ill health or retirement are relatively low – in fact, they are very low, so I do not have a particular issue with that. I know it is an issue and I made comment on this last week in another place, Mr Speaker, and talked at length about morale – I talked at length about the number of hours worked, the staffing shortages and how we are not up to full strength at the moment and the 1000 reasons for that, and I think I covered it well at that point, sir.

The Speaker: A final supplementary, Mr Houghton.

Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr Speaker. 1005 Could it also be a reason why officers are leaving, not just because of low morale, but that of the fact that there is no support in specialised departments such as the Roads Policing Unit etc. and because of matters that were discussed in another place last week – the vulnerability and

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the risk officers face now when they are out on their own, many times on their own at night, miles away from any help or assistance when they ... [Inaudible] that they are actually in danger, 1010 and that is not funny.

The Speaker: Minister.

The Minister: I do not think anyone is suggesting it is funny and I know that it has happened, 1015 Mr Speaker, that officers have been called to incidents and had to deal with concerning incidents, but I am not aware of that being a significant cause of people leaving the force. As I have said, most of the people who are leaving are planned retirements. That is far and away the largest cause of people leaving the Constabulary. I am not going to say that we are not having issues and, as I said, they were covered last week in Tynwald about the wide variety of 1020 complicated issues that are going on in policing at the moment and how we are still striving to get to our establishment figure of 2011, and whilst that is being built up there are these unfortunate things that are happening and people are working longer hours and so on. I commend the Constabulary for doing so. They get their heads down, they get on with it, and that is to be commended, and I thank them very much for that. I want to be able to reassure 1025 them that this is a short-term issue, that we are keen to make sure that we do get up to establishment of 2011 and we are keen to do that as quickly as we can, but we are not going to compromise quality on the way.

Suspension of Standing Orders to take remaining Oral Questions – Motion lost; Questions 11-15 deferred to next sitting

The Speaker: Hon. Members, we have reached the end of our allotted time. I call the Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Thomas. 1030 Mr Thomas: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that Standing Order 3.5.1(2) be suspended to enable the remaining Questions for Oral Answer to be taken at this sitting.

The Speaker: Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. 1035 Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I beg to second, sir.

The Speaker: Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. We shall have a vote, Hon. Members. Sixteen votes required to suspend Standing Orders.

Electronic voting resulted as follows:

FOR AGAINST Mrs Beecroft Mr Boot Mr Cannan Mr Gawne Mr Cregeen Mr Quayle Mr Hall Mr Robertshaw Mr Harmer Mr Shimmin Mr Houghton Mr Skelly Mr Karran Mr Teare Mr Malarkey Mr Watterson Mr Quirk Mr Ronan Mr Singer The Speaker Mr Thomas

______37 K133 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 27th OCTOBER 2015

The Speaker: With 13 votes for and 8 against, the motion therefore fails to carry. I will now ask the Hon. Members with Questions on the Order Paper how they would like to deal with the unanswered Questions. Mr Thomas, in relation to Questions 11 and 12?

Mr Thomas: I would like to hold them over until next week, please, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: Held over until next week. In relation to Questions 13 and 14, Mr Karran?

Mr Karan: Next week.

The Speaker: Until next week. And finally, Mr Quirk, Question 15?

Mr Quirk: Next week, sir.

The Speaker: Thank you, Hon. Members. Questions for Written Answer and the one remaining Question will be circulated.

______38 K133 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 27th OCTOBER 2015

2. Questions for Written Answer

HOME AFFAIRS

1.9. Drug Arrest Referral Scheme – Recent work undertaken; whether still active

The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to ask the Minister for Home Affairs:

In relation to the Drug Arrest Referral Scheme; (i) what the scheme has undertaken over the last three years and (ii) whether the scheme remains active; and if not why not? 1040 The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Watterson): In relation to the figures for the Drug Arrest Referral Scheme since 2011:

In 2011-12 – 54 individuals were referred 48 passed and 6 failed. 1045 In 2012-13 – 45 individuals were referred and 45 passed. In 2013-14 – 90 individuals were referred and 81 passed and 9 failed. In 2014-15 – 62 individuals were referred and 55 passed and 7 failed. In 2015 to date – 41 individuals were referred 39 passed and 1 failed and 1 is outstanding.

1050 As can be clearly evidenced by the figures, the scheme remains active and successful.

2.1. Isle of Man Constabulary – Number of resignations, retirements

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Hall) to ask the Minister for Home Affairs:

How many (i) voluntary resignations (ii) medical retirements (iii) normal retirements and (iv) dismissals have occurred in each of the past five years in the Isle of Man Constabulary, broken down by officer rank and/or police worker type?

The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Watterson): Isle of Man Police Officers:

2010 Numbers Years’ service Resignations (a) During disciplinary processi 2 8.37,8.25 (b) Probationerii 0 (c) Transfer to other police bodies 0 (d) Other 2 2.89, 10.76 Ill Health (e) Due to assaultiii 1 7.67 (f) Other 1 22.72 Retirement 5 30,30,30,31,32.66 Total 11 2011 Resignations (a) During disciplinary process 2 0.34, 28.27 (b) Probationer 2 0.09, 0.4 (c) Transfer to other police bodies 0 (d) Other 0

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Numbers Years’ service Ill Health (e) Due to assault 0 (f) Other 3 27.59, 25.2, 25.11 Retirement 8 25,30,30,30,30,30,30,30.83 Total 15 2012 Resignations (a) During disciplinary process 1 12.6 (b) Probationer 0 (c) Transfer to other police bodies 0 (d) Other 2 4.72, 2.89 Ill Health (e) Due to assault 0 (f) Other 3 22.04, 22.55, 25 Retirement 14 30x11; 30.03, 31.1, 37.51 Total 20 2013 Resignations (a) During disciplinary process 1 11.6 (b) Probationer 4 0.72, 1.32, 1.51, 3.91iv (c) Transfer to other police bodies 0 (d) Other 1 5.8 Ill Health (e) Due to assault 0 (f) Other 4 16.27, 25.2, 25.89, 25.99 Retirement 6 30,30,30,30, 30.01,32.8 Total 16 2014 Resignations (a) During disciplinary process 4 6.37, 6.5, 6.58, 12 (b) Probationer 0 (c) Transfer to other police bodies 2 2.78, 3.16 (d) Other 5 1.9, 4.02, 9.4, 11.52, 17.95 Ill Health (e) Due to assault 0 (f) Other 4 16.27, 25.2, 25.89, 25.99 Retirement 5 21.5, 30, 30, 30, 30.06 Total 20 2015 Resignations (a) During disciplinary process 0 (b) Probationer 6 0.43,0.45,0.47,0.51,0.55 (c) Transfer to other police bodies 1 3.6 (d) Other 8 3.5, 6.79, 7.71, 8.79, 9.39, 10.24, 10.32, 14.91 Ill Health (e) Due to assault 3 7.55, 8.14, 15.45 (f) Other 4 10.68, 25.55, 26.2, 29.15 Retirement 7 30 x 7 Total 29

i This includes officers required to resign as an alternative to dismissal and those allowed to resign immediately prior to formal proceedings. ii This includes both voluntary resignations and resignations allowed under Regulations as an alternative to discharge on the grounds of unsuitability. iii This includes officers suffering acute psychological injury directly linked to an assault on duty, as well those who have failed to recover from physical injuries. iv Extended probationary period

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Isle of Man Police Civilian Staff

2010 Numbers/Reasons Years’ service 1 x D409– Death in service 11.92 2011 Parking controller – Ill health 14.74 Parking controller – Retirement 19.56 Whitley – Retirement 16.33 AO – Resignation 2.2 AO – Dismissal health 7.91 Sec – Retirement 9.41 2012 Sec – Dismissal health 6.54 Senior Sec – retirement 17.32 Whitley – Retirement 10.37 2013 Whitley Craft – Retirement 27.08 D200 – retirement 13.48 HEO – Retirement 32.24 AO – To join the police 11.99 SG2 – Retirement 9.85 2014 AO – Retirement 10.33 Senior sec – Resignation 8.32 SG2 – Retirement 12.15 AO – Resignation 8.7 2015 AO – Retirement 5.26 D409 – Retirement 13.81 AO – Retirement 24.97 AA – Retirement 14.75 Whitley – Retirement 19.37

ISLE OF MAN POST OFFICE

2.2. Ramsey Post Office – Members of committee tasked with negotiations

The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mrs Beecroft) to ask the Chairman of the Post Office:

Who the members were of the committee tasked with the negotiations in respect of Ramsey Post Office; and what positions they held at that time?

1055 The Chairman of the Post Office (Mr Cregeen): The project team that conducted negotiations with Ramsey Court House Ltd comprised of:

Mr Peter Cropper (Lead) Operations Director Mr Russell Cowin Projects Manager 1060 Mr Keith Green Projects Manager Mr Martyn Quine Retail Network Manager

In addition, the negotiation team was supplemented by the following personnel on an as- required basis: 1065 Ms L Dunwell Tender & Contracts Manager Ms E Smith Director of Civil Law, Attorney General’s Chambers

If Mr Cropper was unavailable, the IOMPO project team was headed by either Mr David 1070 Catlow (Finance Director) or Ms Lisa Duckworth (Commercial Director).

______41 K133 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 27th OCTOBER 2015

Order of the Day

3. BILLS FOR FIRST READING

3.1. Police (Amendment) Bill 2015 3.2. Criminal Procedure and Investigations Bill 2015

The Speaker: In relation to Item 3, Bills for First Reading, I call on the Secretary of the House.

The Secretary: Bills for First Reading: Police (Amendment) Bill 2015, Member in charge, Mr Watterson; Criminal Procedure and Investigations Bill 2015, Member in charge, 1075 Mr Watterson.

The Speaker: Thank you.

4. HOUSE OF KEYS STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE

4.1. Standing Orders Committee – First Report for the Session 2015-16 received and recommendation approved

The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to move:

That the First Report of the Standing Orders Committee for the Session 2015-16 be received and its recommendation for amending Standing Orders be approved.

The Speaker: Item 4, House of Keys Standing Orders Committee, and I call on the Hon. 1080 Member for Michael, Mr Cannan.

Mr Cannan: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am pleased to bring forward this Report from the Standing Orders Committee, which recommends that the Isle of Man Constitution (Elections to Council) Act 1971 be repealed and 1085 replaced with a provision that places the rules relating to elections to Council in Keys Standing Orders rather than statute law in order to afford maximum flexibility. Mr Speaker, you will recognise, of course, that the last process for electing Members of the Council created significant delays in the House in electing the requisite number of candidates to fill the available spaces in the Legislative Council. As a result of dissatisfaction with that delay, 1090 you, sir, of course, referred the matter to the Standing Orders Committee for examination. The Committee did agree that we have a constitutional duty to advise the House on a more workable system for electing Members of Council. We think that the system for electing Members of the Legislative Council is not sufficient for purpose and we propose to move forward in two steps. The first is to gain the agreement of the House that the system should be 1095 put into Standing Orders rather than in statute. This will assist in building flexibility and a speedier response into the legislative system to allow for improvements to the electoral process when required. Mr Speaker, if the House agrees this principle, the Committee will consult Members about the procedure for electing Members of the Legislative Council and propose the broad terms of 1100 the procedure to be adopted. We will examine what, if anything, would be appropriate to remain statute law in order to afford the maximum flexibility in framing the rules through

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Standing Orders. Once this is done, providing we get approval today, of course, the House will be able to deal with a Bill to amend the Isle of Man Constitution (Elections to Council) Act 1971. I beg to move. 1105 The Speaker: Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Quirk.

Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I beg to second and reserve. 1110 The Speaker: Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I appreciate the Report from the Standing Orders Committee. Just two points that I wanted 1115 to make. The first one is: is this not premature in the sense that there is actually an active inquiry into Tynwald procedures which it might be argued includes this action? So, at the very least, I wanted to make sure that the Committee of the other place is actually aware that ... sorry, this House is aware that that Tynwald inquiry is in motion and, I believe, should report before July 2016? This 1120 resolution is quite positive about repealing an Act and replacing it in a way ... Conceivably, an analytical approach to the evidence might come up with different proposals, so at least I want it on record that there is flexibility in respect of what to do that might come out of that Tynwald inquiry. The second point is that the phrase ‘to afford maximum flexibility’ seems to me to be 1125 aggressive, in the sense that, to me, the way that we elect our revising Chamber, as it is now called, should actually be subject to more than just the temporary whim of somebody, and so on. So I am hesitant to vote for this unless I can be persuaded, because of the phrase ‘to afford maximum flexibility’.

1130 The Speaker: Before we proceed, Hon. Member, if we just assist the House – you referred to a Tynwald inquiry. Can I ask, are you referring to a Council of Ministers inquiry that was asked for by Tynwald? There is not a committee, as far as I am aware, of the Court inquiring into this matter.

1135 Mr Thomas: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, I am pleased to illuminate. I think the title is ... [Inaudible] Government Inquiry into the Workings of Tynwald and its Branches, which I understand is entitled ‘Tynwald Inquiry’, so it is an investigation by Government into the workings of Tynwald and its Branches, which might be argued to include this very topic.

1140 The Speaker: Thank you for that clarification. Hon. Member, Mr Singer.

Mr Singer: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am tending to agree with the previous Speaker, Mr Thomas, in that ... what does it mean by 1145 ‘maximum flexibility’? We have two elections in five years, so there is time to think about it, talk about it and put the changes into statute. The only reason, therefore, you would need what is so-called maximum flexibility would be, to me, if you are in the middle of the election process and you think, ‘This is embarrassing,’ for some reason, as it would have been, ‘we are going to change the law as such and we are going to do it because we can do it immediately and we can 1150 do it maybe within a couple of weeks.’ If that is what the thought is meant by ‘maximum flexibility’, that is almost making decisions on the hoof and I do not really think that is a very good idea in here, because you make it on the hoof and then you realise maybe we should have done something else.

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I would tend to vote against this and say think it through thoroughly and then put it into 1155 statute.

The Speaker: Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Beecroft.

Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Mr Speaker. 1160 I totally agree with the previous speakers. We should not be giving maximum flexibility for something as fundamentally important as this, particularly when you think that Members of the Legislative Council can prevent elected Members of the Keys – as happened last week in the vote over parking – when they are elected, from having their say. Well, we can have a say, but we got outvoted by them. To have maximum flexibility as to how these people are voted in in 1165 the first place I think is a very dangerous thing to be doing. I agree it is embarrassing and there is dissatisfaction about the whole process, but it is probably more embarrassing and people are more dissatisfied with it outside this House and outside Tynwald Court because they are not elected by the people. I would suggest that we should either be having them elected by the people or we should change them and we should 1170 not have a Legislative Council at all. It should be one or the other. We should not be just inventing methods to get round our embarrassment by weakening the safeguards that are already in place. I think that is totally inappropriate and totally the wrong way to go. We need good safeguards so that proper process is followed that does not allow maximum flexibility to get over the embarrassing situation that we are in. 1175 The Speaker: Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Gawne.

Mr Gawne: Gura mie eu, Loayreyder. All I can say is I wish the Standing Orders luck, having tried in the past to resolve this 1180 intractable matter, being given what I thought was good advice at the time, which has ultimately proved not to be good advice because what I had actually intended to do ... the advice we now have is that that is not what the Bill, or the Act that eventually was passed, actually does. I think that, to my mind ... and I think possibly it is just an unfortunate turn of phrase by the mover, talking about ‘maximum flexibility’ – 1185 Mr Singer: It’s in the resolution.

Mr Gawne: Well, it is an unfortunate turn of phrase in the resolution then, because having tried and been absolutely clear about what I was intending to do and making it very clear to the 1190 Clerk at the time and to the drafter of the legislation exactly what I was trying to do, and having full support from Keys Members for what I was trying to do, we ended up with legislation which does something different, and that is primary legislation. Admittedly, there is kind of an ‘on the one hand and on the other’ here, isn’t there, because on the one hand, primary legislation means that you cannot readily change something and 1195 readily end up with a situation where we just say, ‘Oh, we’ll just roll the dice and see who wins,’ which could ultimately be what we all collectively decided if we got fed up enough with it. So that is on the one side, but on the other side of the debate it was very clear what I was intending to do. The law as was drafted now appears to do something different. Quite frankly, I have got so fed up with it that I have decided I am not going anywhere near it again. If someone else 1200 wants to do amendments to it (Laughter) then good luck to them, but a relatively small fix in Standing Orders, if this was in Standing Orders, could have resolved the problem. But I do very firmly believe that we must ensure that there are very clear safeguards explaining what it takes to get someone elected as a Member of the Legislative Council. I believe that anyone who has less than 13 votes from the House of Keys, for example, clearly does not have the majority of 1205 support from the Keys, and I think that in itself should be enshrined in law.

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I am finding myself in that classic Manx political position of being a bit stuck on the fence at the moment, so I will be interested to hear what the mover says. I can see on the one hand there are lots of positives in having a degree of flexibility, but we cannot be flexible on the fundamental principles that are at the heart of how we elect people into our parliamentary 1210 system.

The Speaker: Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Vainstyr Loayreyder, I have dissented from the recommendations of this Report, 1215 based on the issue that the constitutional arrangements are important and the method of electing Members of the Legislative Council should be in statute. I do not believe the method of Standing Orders will provide adequate safeguards. It is too easy for the system to be too easily amended and, in view of these proposals, in my opinion, will end up being for short-term political consideration to dominate the election process. I am, to be honest, quite horrified, 1220 because we had a discussion the other day where people were talking about acting like a local authority, and we could go into many things as far as the Government is concerned, but the reality is ... I am not the greatest fan of the Legislative Council, and you will hear me talk about ... [Inaudible] the mediaeval redundancy for unelectable MHKs to dodge the public and all that, so I 1225 am not a great fan of the Upper House – in my opinion, it should have been elected by the people – but I just think people need to think about this. If we were a local authority and we were talking about the aldermen or another chamber, then yes it would be Standing Orders, but you are talking about a national assembly. You are a parliament – a parliament that is wanting to elect its revising Chamber for its national parliament. It should not be in Standing Orders. It is 1230 totally and utterly wrong. This Chamber and the other Chamber ... and the Tynwald Chamber is the highest court in the land. It is a parliamentary assembly. Standing Orders might be all right to be able to elect people for town councils or commissioners, but we are talking about a revising Chamber, and as the Hon. Member for South Douglas has already pointed out, we saw how they already circumvented the will of the elected Members last week. 1235 Hon. Members, I hope that you will not vote for this Report, because I believe that we have seen what it is about – to afford the maximum flexibility. This Island and its government systems is going down the road of a West African republic by many outside this House. I believe there are good reasons why we do these things in statute law. Hon. Members, if you want to bring more dissent against Tynwald, against the Branches of Tynwald, then support this proposal, because 1240 what it would seem ... is once again making up as you go along. You have got to work out that you can either go down the way things are, or you can actually look at this as parliamentarians, and as parliamentarians, putting somebody into the position where they can outvote this House through a five-year term on the same basis as far as remuneration and on the same basis of equality, apart from not being able to sit in this House, 1245 on the fact that someone can use a block vote of 16 ... and this could be Liberal Vannin in the future (Interjection) or it could be the other side. (A Member: Lovely optimism.) It would be equally wrong as far as that is concerned. It is about good law, it is about good systems of government, and I am sorry – this Report, in my opinion, reflects naivety at best as far as the members of the Committee allowing this to happen. 1250 I hope Hon. Members will not support this. You are not a local authority. This is about the second, revising, Chamber. I am no fan of them, but this is about the proper parliamentary way and I see increasingly the basic principles of parliamentary democracy being eroded. I just think, Members, if you go down this road and you are going to have a situation where you can get elected on the hoof by suspension of Standing Orders, you will actually bring not only dishonour 1255 to the status of the Legislative Council, but also the status of the House of Keys ... [Inaudible]. I hope you vote against this proposal. I am not denying, Vainstyr Loayreyder, that there is a need for change in the election procedures, but it should be in statute.

______45 K133 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 27th OCTOBER 2015

The Speaker: Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Watterson.

1260 Mr Watterson: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I find myself in a somewhat unusual position with regard to this Report, inasmuch as the House elected me to the Standing Orders Committee and soon thereafter I was presented with a Report that was complete, finished – all the deliberations had been done – and was given something of a take it or leave it approach as to whether I signed the Report or not, without 1265 really having an input into how it was done. I decided to sign the Report, put my name to it and agree to it, irrespective of the ‘maximum flexibility’ which seems to be causing all the contention. What I would say is that I think whilst Members’ concerns are genuine, and I do believe that they are genuine, they are somewhat premature. What this Report will lead to, if agreed to, will 1270 be a Bill, and that Bill will then outline what principles must remain in primary legislation and what functional aspects will be able to move into Standing Orders. So the sacred cows – and I think Mr Gawne was concerned about some of these, such as the fact that you want to have 13 Members of the House of Keys minimum before someone can be elected to the Legislative Council – can remain in primary legislation, but it is about saying do we really need all the 1275 mechanics to also go into primary legislation, when we have been caught up on it and certainly ... and I think Mr Gawne feels he has had his fingers burnt asking for one thing and ending up with a process that does something else. What we are talking about here is this House, how it performs its elections. So it is not something that is completely without control or can be done on the hoof. Suspension of 1280 Standing Orders, as we have seen earlier, is not something that is taken for granted. It is not easy to achieve quickly. You will need 16 Members to suddenly change Standing Orders, and no one can achieve a guaranteed 16 –

The Speaker: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas. 1285 Mr Thomas: Will the Hon. Member give way?

Mr Watterson: Yes, certainly.

1290 Mr Thomas: It is very helpful, these remarks from the Hon. Member. I just wanted some clarity because my plain reading and my understanding after the reading is that there would not necessarily be any statute that was necessary afterwards, because I read ... The words ‘replaced with a provision that places the rules relating to elections to Council in Keys Standing Orders rather than statute law’ mean that there is no need for any primary legislation. So I just wanted 1295 the Member, who will have researched this, to clarify whether that is actually bad English and does not mean quite what it says on the paper.

The Speaker: Mr Watterson.

1300 Mr Watterson: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Far be it from me to comment on the grammatical accuracy of others, but there will have to be a Bill. There will have to be, because at the moment the process is laid down in law. It is in the Legislative Council Elections ... I cannot remember the exact name of the Act, but they are set out in the Act. So if you are to change it, you are going to have to either repeal those Acts 1305 and replace them in Standing Orders, or replace it with something else that says, ‘These are the things that must happen by law’ – that the Keys must have 13 votes before somebody is elected to the Legislative Council – ‘and the rest is left to Standing Orders of the House.’ We can be ... [Inaudible] If we decided to change something, that we were going to do it by single transferrable vote, then absolutely we could do that potentially within Standing Orders.

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1310 But to come back to Mr Thomas’s point, the process that we would need to go through to make the recommendation in this Report a reality is the legislative route, and of course that is the point where Members can make sure that they get they safeguards that they require, because when it comes to the amending legislation it will need to go through the usual process in here and it will need to get 13 votes to achieve Third Reading. 1315 I think I have covered most of the points that I wanted to make, and certainly I have covered the concerns that Members have raised and also why I decided to sign the Report. The result of this, if approved, will be a Bill, and Members can then go through that and have their say on it in the usual manner to decide what safeguards they want and what flexibility they want to give us in determining Standing Orders, how we are going to elect Members of the 1320 Legislative Council.

The Speaker: I call on the mover to reply. Mr Cannan.

Mr Cannan: Thank you, Mr Speaker. 1325 I do not think the Standing Orders Committee is going to die in a ditch fighting for this. It is, after all, your Committee, and we have come forward with a set of recommendations to try and overcome some of the problems that particularly were apparent in the last elections to the Legislative Council, which dragged on and on and on, (A Member: Hear, hear.) probably to the detriment of the reputation (A Member: Absolutely.) (A Member: Hear, hear.) of Tynwald rather 1330 than enhancing the reputation of the democracy that we live in. I think the Hon. Member for Onchan, as usual, is off on his West African republic rant, but it is not unusual necessarily for ... It does not have to be elections to the Upper Chamber. The House of Lords, for example, which has just blocked the party currently in office, in government, on their tax credits, for example, is actually an appointed body and is not publicly elected. So I think 1335 there are arguments on that both ways. I think the key point here is that there are a number of procedural items that could have been amended in the last round of elections that may have speeded up the process. For example, the time delays calling for fresh nominations when we were not getting any, and perhaps it would have been obvious to the House at that point that we did not need to go 1340 through that process again but could have resolved that matter on the day. Basically, I accept that Members have concerns. It does not mean to say there is not going to be statute. There is going to be a Bill, but that Bill will give us the flexibility to have some of the procedures put into Standing Orders – or all of the procedures, if the Members so wish when that Bill comes through – and will give the House more flexibility to ensure that, where 1345 procedures are clearly holding up and delaying the election of Members to the Upper Chamber, we have the flexibility to ensure that the process is conducted more smoothly, so that we are not going through these endless delays, we are not going through this very public view that somehow we cannot even sort out our own House within Tynwald, and indeed will remove – dare I say it – potentially some of the issues that go on in here in terms of deciding whether in 1350 fact new people should come forward or not when clearly the potential people who are standing are actually the only choices available. So, on that note, Mr Speaker, given the assurance that the Standing Orders Committee does recognise that there has to be some form of legislation governing this ... This was merely a move to try and bring resolution to some of the problems that we have faced and to try and make the 1355 process much smoother, not to hinder democracy but to try and improve it.

The Speaker: Hon. Members, the motion is that set out at Item 4. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.

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A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:

FOR AGAINST Mr Bell Mrs Beecroft Mr Boot Mr Gawne Mr Cannan Mr Hall Mr Cregeen Mr Karran Mr Harmer Mr Robertshaw Mr Houghton Mr Singer Mr Malarkey Mr Thomas Mr Quayle Mr Quirk Mr Ronan Mr Shimmin Mr Skelly Mr Teare The Speaker Mr Watterson

The Speaker: The motion carries with 15 votes for and 7 votes against. Thank you, Hon. Members.

5. LEAVE TO INTRODUCE

5.1. A Bill to rename Douglas West – Leave to introduce – Motion carried

The Hon. Member for South Douglas (Mr Malarkey) to move:

That leave be given to introduce a Private Member’s Bill to rename the Douglas West constituency; and for connected purposes.

The Speaker: We turn now to Item 5, leave to introduce, and I call on the Hon. Member for 1360 Douglas South, Mr Malarkey, please.

Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is probably the shortest Bill that will come before this House this coming session – I certainly hope. 1365 As Members are aware, I was not a Member of the House when the Representation of the People Act 2015 was brought through with boundary changes. When I saw the final boundary change, it came to light that suddenly Douglas South had become Douglas West for some unknown reason. Mr Speaker, Douglas South, the boundary, was always the largest constituency in Douglas, 1370 because over the years it has grown. It started off at Douglas Head, going along, taking up Pulrose and Anagh Coar and then, as Farmhill came in and then Ballaughton, the constituency grew to be the largest one in Douglas. Under the latest reshuffle of the boundaries Douglas South did not actually take in any other boundaries. It actually lost quite a lot of its boundary: it lost Douglas Head, Peel Road and 1375 Hillside Avenue. Other constituencies within Douglas expanded, including Douglas West, which went further into central Douglas and ended up having a name change from Douglas West to Central Douglas. It is beyond me and I have not been able to get any explanation why suddenly it was in the wisdom of those who were on the committee that looked at it to rename Douglas

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South ‘Douglas West’, which is not only ... confusing because people who live in Douglas South 1380 do not understand why they are now going to be called Douglas West.

Mr Watterson: It wasn’t their only stupid idea.

Mr Malarkey: Douglas South, as it stands at the moment, is the last territory you will go 1385 through on the way to the Airport, because it is still south of Douglas. It does border slightly to the west of Douglas, but it is still the most southern area of Douglas. So I am asking for leave to introduce today for a one-word change in the Representation of the People Act 2015 to allow what is now in the Act as ‘Douglas West’, that was Douglas South, to come back to being Douglas South. 1390 Whilst canvassing, Mr Speaker, knocking on doors – and this was not a conversation we were having with constituents – I had little old ladies saying, ‘Well, where are we going to have to go to vote now? Are we going to have to go to Douglas West?’ It just causes pure confusion. So, all I am asking for is the support of the House to introduce the Bill. It is cost neutral. It took the Attorney General’s office 10 minutes to email me back with the primary legislation. 1395 Unfortunately, it needs primary legislation to change that within the Act. With a fair amount of support and suspended Standing Orders, this could be done extremely quickly before Christmas, going through both Branches, so that we will not hold up any people going forward for the next Election. I beg to move, Mr Speaker. 1400 The Speaker: Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Beecroft.

Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am happy to second this leave to introduce because I think if it clarifies things and makes it 1405 easier to understand. Anything that makes the democratic process more clear and more easy to understanding I think should be supported.

The Speaker: Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Quirk.

1410 Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am quite happy to support my hon. friend and colleague from South Douglas, Mr Malarkey, on this particular change. I too tried ... because in Onchan, in our constituency – Mr Karran, our constituency – we lose a fantastic amount of people in another area, to Garff. 1415 My only contention, really, at the end of the day – and it is not viable for today, really – is that you would look after them, because there are some people who live in Onchan for the local authority elections. I will be 100% supporting the Member for South Douglas to move this further.

1420 The Speaker: I make no comment! (Laughter and interjections) Least said, soonest mended. Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: No problem with the change of the name. Obviously, Douglas South is a traditional name. 1425 Douglas West existed between 1956 and 2016 and is one that ... I have the privilege of being one of the last Members to represent that constituency, if the name is not re-used. Two substantive points I want to make. I want the Member to assure us that there would be no consultation to do with this name change, because some people might read the Code on Consultation such as there has to be consultation, but to me it seems absolutely clear that there 1430 is no need to do any consultation.

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More importantly, it seems to me incredibly surprising that we cannot just change a name through an Order if we can change the mechanism by which we are going to elect (Mrs Beecroft: Hear, hear.) to the second Chamber ... [Inaudible]. When I was talking with Mr Turner, who is looking at not only registration issues but also electoral issues, I tried to 1435 include that in the scope of his investigation, and it seems to me this is perfectly ... This should be handled by the Electoral Commission in future, (Mr Watterson: No chance.) and I hope that Members agree with me that that would be the right way to deal with such a trivial issue in many senses.

1440 Mr Watterson: They know nothing.

The Speaker: Hon. Member for Castletown.

Mr Ronan: Thank you, Mr Speaker. 1445 If I could just get some reassurance off the mover that this is what it says and there will be no what he perceives as possible mischief-making further down the line. We have been through a rigorous process to equalise the boundaries across the Isle of Man to make it fair and equal for every voter in the forthcoming elections and thereon going forward. So just reassurance that this is a simple name change and Bill will not be changed in a way where debate could be had 1450 where we could go through another round of moving backwards or turning the clock backwards.

Mr Quirk: ‘Democracy’, it’s called.

The Speaker: I call on the mover to reply. Mr Malarkey. 1455 Mr Malarkey: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Firstly, I would like to thank my seconder and also the Member for Onchan for his support. If I could answer the last speaker, Minister Ronan, first, from my point of view this is simply a name change. If anybody wants to try and hang something onto this going through it is up to this 1460 House to stop that happening. (Mr Karran: Hear, hear.) That is out of my control. I just want a simple name change and I want it going through quite quickly so we are not holding the Cabinet Office or anybody else up on any paperwork that has to be done for the next Election. That is the in the hands of this House. With regard to consultation, I believe I have already consulted. I have just done a by-election. 1465 I have spoken to the constituents in South Douglas. I know what they want. It did come up on several occasions, so I have consulted. I thank the Member for the current West Douglas, before it disappears, for comments over this being primary legislation authorisation. I think that is a bit much, but I am guided by ... This is the only direction I can go. It should be done by an Order and I think the Chief Minister has 1470 taken that on board and maybe we can, in future, move things a little bit quicker in this Hon. House. With that, I beg to move for permission to introduce.

The Speaker: Hon. Members, I put the motion as set out at Item 5 to grant leave to 1475 introduce. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.

A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:

FOR AGAINST Mrs Beecroft Mr Harmer Mr Bell Mr Ronan Mr Boot

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Mr Cannan Mr Cregeen Mr Gawne Mr Hall Mr Houghton Mr Karran Mr Malarkey Mr Quayle Mr Quirk Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmin Mr Singer Mr Skelly Mr Teare The Speaker Mr Thomas Mr Watterson

The Speaker: With 20 votes for and 2 votes against, the motion therefore carries.

6. CONSIDERATION OF CLAUSES

6.1. Audit (Amendment) Bill 2015 – Clauses considered

Mr Teare to move.

The Speaker: Hon. Members, we turn to Item 6, the clauses stage. Firstly, the Audit (Amendment) Bill 2015. I call on the mover, the Hon. Member for Ayre, the Treasury Minister.

1480 Mr Teare: Thank you, sir. Mr Speaker and Hon. Members, as I highlighted at the Second Reading, this Bill confirms Treasury’s commitment to promoting a more proportionate and cost-effective approach to financial governance. The main aims of the Bill are to implement into primary legislation the policy, currently 1485 adopted via subordinate legislation, of a three-tier risk-based approach to the external inspection of a public body’s accounts. The Bill will also make the required amendments to existing legislation to enable the Island’s burial ground authorities, who are amongst the smallest bodies covered by the Audit Act 2006, to also adopt the same independent audit and assurance framework as the rest of the local 1490 government sector. Mr Speaker, at the Bill’s Second Reading in this House a couple of queries were raised that I was unable to respond to fully at that time. Firstly, the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Quirk, sought reassurance surrounding the ongoing openness and transparency surrounding the accounts and audit reports of local government 1495 bodies. I can again confirm that nothing in the proposed amendments dilutes the current arrangements, which are and will continue to be established via regulations approved by Tynwald. The current regulations require that all local government bodies’ accounts and their corresponding independent audit assurance reports will be open to public inspection. However, I have to make a minor correction to a statement I made in relation to the inclusion of these

______51 K133 HOUSE OF KEYS, TUESDAY, 27th OCTOBER 2015

1500 accounts in the Orange Books: they are actually submitted annually to Tynwald in a separate publication produced by the Department of Infrastructure. The Hon. Member also sought clarification of the three-tier system and I am happy to take this opportunity to summarise the proposal. For the largest bodies a statutory audit by a qualified auditor will continue to be required. For medium-sized bodies an assurance review by a 1505 qualified auditor will be required. The existing regulations require these to be undertaken in accordance with the international standards on review engagement issued by the International Auditing and Assurance Standards Board. For the smallest bodies an independent examination similar to that required by Manx-registered charities will be required. At the Second Reading I also confirmed that there was nothing within the legislation that will 1510 prevent Treasury adopting a policy of appointing a panel of auditors for subsequent selection by local authorities. The Hon. Member for South Douglas, Mrs Beecroft, also asked whether local authorities had submitted any comments in relation to this during the consultation. I can confirm that some local authorities did respond, suggesting a more flexible approach for the appointment of auditors’ inspectors. As I confirmed at the Second Reading, I am open to further 1515 consultation on this from a policy viewpoint. However, I would also highlight that the principle has already been adopted by the existing secondary legislation for the smallest authorities to appoint their own examiners subject to Treasury approval, and this principle is also included within the proposed Bill. In summary, then, it is the intention of the Bill to provide Treasury with the powers to ease 1520 the regulatory burden, where appropriate, for all relevant bodies brought within the scope of the Audit Act 2006, with particular consideration being given in future to the burial authorities to ease the accounting timetable for the burial authorities and to make the proportionate assurance framework currently adopted by subordinate legislation more clearly defined and also robust within the primary legislation. 1525 Mr Speaker, turning to the Bill itself, this Bill is divided into three parts and contains 26 clauses. With your permission, sir, I will take the first three clauses together. Thank you, sir. Part 1, clause 1: this is the short title of the Act, the Audit (Amendment) Act 2015. Clause 2: this is the commencement section. The Act, other than sections 1 and 2, will come into operation on such day or days as the Treasury may by order appoint. As highlighted 1530 previously, it is intended to utilise section 2(2) to introduce the required transitionary provisions in relation to the changes to the burial authority accounting period. Clause 3: this is the expiry clause. After the amendment Act has been amended, the required legislation will expire. I beg to move clauses 1, 2 and 3 do stand part of this Bill, sir. 1535 The Speaker: Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Watterson.

Mr Watterson: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

1540 The Speaker: I put the question that clauses 1, 2 and 3 stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 4, please.

Mr Teare: Thank, you, sir. 1545 Clause 4 introduces the amendments to the 2006 Act and I beg to move that clause 4 do stand part of the Bill.

The Speaker: Mr Watterson.

1550 Mr Watterson: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

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The Speaker: I put the question: clause 4. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 5. 1555 Mr Teare: Thank you, sir. Clause 5 inserts section A1 at the beginning of the 2006 Act, introducing the three forms of inspection: examination, assurance review or audit. The default requirement is still for accounts to be audited unless Treasury otherwise directs. 1560 It clarifies that references to ‘inspection’, etc. refer to any of these forms of inspection. Mr Speaker, I beg to move that clause 5 do stand part of this Bill.

The Speaker: Mr Watterson.

1565 Mr Watterson: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The Speaker: Hon. Member, Mr Quirk.

Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr Speaker. 1570 Just to clarify a little bit, if I could, Minister, and I thank for looking at those other issues I had some time ago, can I just seek an assurance then that we will have an approved list of auditors, an approved list of assurance reviewers and examinations, so that if there are three categories, they are in three things. The minor one I was just thinking about too was if a company from another jurisdiction 1575 wanted to do auditing, would they be allowed on the list, or would they have to be a registered Manx company?

The Speaker: Mover to reply.

1580 Mr Teare: Certainly my understanding is that it would not be necessary for them to be an established Manx company, as long as they were suitably qualified. But Treasury will have the power to appoint a person and as we said in the introductory remarks, it would be in effect a panel prepared by Treasury. So with that, sir, I beg to move this clause. 1585 The Speaker: I put the motion, clause 5: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 6.

1590 Mr Teare: Thank you, sir. Clause 6 amends section 1 of the Act to reflect that although all the bodies to which the 2006 Act applies will be subject to some form of inspection, it will not necessarily be an audit, i.e. it amends ‘audit’ to ‘inspecting’, etc. Clause 6(3)(a) expands Treasury’s existing power exemption to all bodies brought into the 1595 scope of the Act by section 1. This effectively continues the option to introduce what is effectively a fourth tier to the assurance framework. The ability to fully exempt relevant bodies or specific sets of account from the requirements of the Act. Mr Speaker, I beg to move that clause 6 stand part of this Bill.

1600 The Speaker: Mr Watterson.

Mr Watterson: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

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The Speaker: Mr Quirk. 1605 Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Just for clarification, when a number of local authorities come together to combine, like civic amenity sites, will they be subject to audit? I just want confirmation of that. Would they also be subject to scrutiny from the general public or the ratepayers of those 1610 districts?

The Speaker: Mr Teare to reply.

Mr Teare: This is a point which has been raised by the Hon. Member before. It depends on 1615 the actual turnover of the combination authority, so it could be that one of the authorities on their own would in effect be an assurance advisory; but it would then go up to over £100,000 turnover, and then it would go into the category above. As for openness and transparency, yes, these accounts should definitely be available for the public. 1620 With that, sir, I beg to move that clause 6 do stand part of this Bill.

The Speaker: Clause 6: those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 7. 1625 Mr Teare: Thank you, sir. Clause 7 makes a similar consequential amendment to section 2, changing reference from ‘audited’ to ‘inspected’. Mr Speaker, I beg to move that clause 7 do stand part of this Bill. 1630 The Speaker: Mr Watterson.

Mr Watterson: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

1635 The Speaker: Clause 7: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 8, please.

Mr Teare: Thank you, sir. 1640 Clause 8 amends section 3, which deals with the appointment of auditors. In particular, this clause restructures the Act by removing the restrictions on persons eligible to be avoided as auditors, as these restrictions are now required to be applied to all inspectors. Accordingly reaches these restrictions have been relocated from section 3 to the new section 4B. Mr Speaker, I beg to move that clause 8 stand part of this Bill. 1645 The Speaker: Mr Watterson.

Mr Watterson: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

1650 The Speaker: Clause 8: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 9.

Mr Teare: Thank you, sir.

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1655 Clause 9 introduces sections 3A and 3B, which set out the required qualifications for assurance reviewers and examiners in relation to accounts. Assurance reviewers are required to be qualified auditors, appointed by the Treasury, similar to existing provisions in relation to auditors. Examiners are appointed by the body and approved by Treasury. They must hold the same 1660 qualifications as those required by independent examiners for charity accounts. These sections, together with section 3, are subject to the new section 4B which, as highlighted above, is the relocation of the existing independence requirements but for all inspectors. Mr Speaker, I beg to move that clause 9 stand part of this Bill.

1665 Mr Watterson: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The Speaker: Clause 9: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 10. 1670 Mr Teare: Clause 10 inserts section 4A which describes the general statutory duties of both assurance reviewers and examiners. These duties are the same for both types of inspection. However, the new section A1 above also provides for the Treasury to make further directions as to the detail each of those requirements. 1675 The clause also inserts section 4B, which as highlighted earlier, is the relocation of existing section 3, and it relates to the disqualifications for acting as an inspector of any sort. There is also a minor amendment to clarify the applicability in relation to relevant subsidiary companies. Mr Speaker, I beg to move that clause 10 stand part of the Bill.

1680 Mr Watterson: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The Speaker: Clause 10: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 11. 1685 Mr Teare: Thank you, sir. Clause 11 generalises references to the ‘audit’ and ‘auditors’ in section 5, replacing them with references to ‘inspection’ and ‘inspectors’. I beg to move that clause 11 stand part of this Bill. 1690 Mr Watterson: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The Speaker: Clause 11: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 1695 Clause 12, please.

Mr Teare: Clause 12, again, generalises references to section 6 to replace them with the more generic terms, ‘inspection’ and ‘inspectors’. Mr Speaker, I beg to move that clause 12 stand part of the Bill. 1700 Mr Watterson: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The Speaker: Clause 12: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 1705 Clause 13.

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Mr Teare: Clause 13 again generalises references, this time in section 7. Mr Speaker, I beg to move that clause 13 stand part of the Bill.

1710 Mr Watterson: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The Speaker: Clause 13: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 14, please. 1715 Mr Teare: Clause 14 again generalises references, this time in section 8. This clause also clarifies that the special report obligations will also apply to assurance reviewers and examiners. However, matters will only be made public, following a full audit. Where concerns have been raised by assurance reviewers and examiners, the provision 1720 permits the relevant authority to direct that a full audit be then undertaken. Mr Speaker, I beg to move that clause 14 stand part of the Bill.

Mr Watterson: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

1725 The Speaker: Clause 14: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 15.

Mr Teare: Thank you, sir. 1730 Clause 15 makes similar reference amendments to the majority of section 9. Similarly, section 9(5)(c) which concerns requirements to give public notice of the issue of a warning notice will continue to be restricted to accounts which have been subject to audit. I beg to move that clause 15 stand part of the Bill.

1735 Mr Watterson: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The Speaker: Mr Quirk.

Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr Speaker. 1740 Just on the warning notice, then, where will that be placed in the consequence of a small organisation? Will that be the public noticeboard or their website, or even their Facebook site, I suppose?

The Speaker: Mover to reply. 1745 Mr Teare: Thank you, sir. The warning notice will be with the local authority, and I think that is only fair in the first instance, because the local authority has to be given an opportunity to correct any failings or perceived failings and if they are then confirmed, then it is up to the local authority to take it 1750 further. There is also oversight provisions with the Department of Infrastructure as well.

The Speaker: I put the motion that clause 15 stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 1755 Clause 16.

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Mr Teare: Clause 16 amends section 11 so as to ensure the continuation of the reserved power to order an extraordinary audit to any accounts which are liable to any sort of inspection under the Act. 1760 Mr Speaker, that clause 16 stand part of this Bill.

Mr Watterson: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my remarks.

The Speaker: Clause 16: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have 1765 it. Clause 17.

Mr Teare: Thank you, sir. Clause 17 amends section to extend the Treasury's existing power to make regulations under 1770 the Act to cover inspections and not merely audits. Mr Speaker, I beg to move that clause 17 stand part of this Bill.

Mr Watterson: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my remarks.

1775 The Speaker: Clause 17: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 18.

Mr Teare: Clause 18 amends section 13 to extend the Treasury’s existing power to give 1780 directions to all classes of accounts to be inspected. I beg to move that clause 18 do stand part of this Bill.

Mr Watterson: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my remarks.

1785 The Speaker: Clause 18: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 19.

Mr Teare: Clause 19 makes consequential amendments to section 14 dealing with fees to be 1790 charged under the 2006 Act. The Treasury will itself fix the fees for an audit or an insurance review, but the body whose accounts are being examined will agree the fee with the examiner. The clause also allows for the required changes to this section on the appointment of a Tynwald Auditor General and at that time would transfer Treasury's responsibilities under the section to the Tynwald Auditor General. 1795 Mr Speaker, I beg to move that clause 19 do stand part of the Bill.

Mr Watterson: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my remarks.

The Speaker: Mr Quirk. 1800 Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Just on the Tynwald Auditor General there, I take it then that matters that may be for ratepayers or businesses within a district could refer those matters to the Tynwald Auditor General. I just wonder when you think the Tynwald Auditor General, if this legislation was to be 1805 improved, will come into being.

The Speaker: Mover to reply.

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Mr Teare: At the moment, sir, I am unable to give any indication as to a likely timescale, 1810 when the Auditor General legislation will have an appointed day order.

The Speaker: Clause 19: Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 20. 1815 Mr Teare: Clause 20 generalises references to audit and auditor in section 15, replacing them with references to ‘inspection’ and ‘inspectors’. Mr Speaker, I beg to move that clause 20 stand part of this Bill.

1820 Mr Watterson: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my remarks.

The Speaker: Clause 20: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 21. 1825 Mr Teare: Clause 21 again generalises references to ‘audit’ and ‘auditor’, this time in section 16, replacing them with references to ‘inspection’ and ‘inspectors’. Mr Speaker, I beg to move that clause 21 stand part of this Bill.

1830 Mr Watterson: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The Speaker: Clause 21: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 22. 1835 Mr Teare: Clause 22 again is consequential amendments, this time to section 18 in relating to the broadening of references and application of the Act to ‘inspection’ and ’inspectors’. Mr Speaker, I beg to move that clause 22 stand part of the Bill.

1840 Mr Watterson: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The Speaker: Mr Quirk.

Mr Quirk: Mr Speaker, yes, I am sorry to be such a pain, but that’s the way … 1845 I just wonder whether the Minister could explain the situation regarding ‘inspectors’ to ‘inspection’ – the difference and what sort of powers that particular person has to report back, or does one follow the other, an inspection and an inspector, or the other way round?

The Speaker: Mover to reply. 1850 Mr Teare: A way of explaining would be that ‘inspection’ is the role carried out by the ‘inspector’. It is a function. So one is the title and then the other is actually what they do. So with that, sir, I beg to move clause 22.

1855 The Speaker: Clause 22, those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 23.

Mr Teare: Clause 23 provides for directions by the Treasury under section 13 to be laid 1860 before Tynwald after they are made.

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I beg to move that clause 23 stand part of this Bill.

Mr Watterson: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

1865 The Speaker: Clause 23: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 24.

Mr Teare: Thank you, sir. 1870 Clause 24 amends section 21 to insert new definitions which flow from the introduction of the concept of inspection. Mr Speaker, I beg to move that clause 24 stand part of this Bill.

Mr Watterson: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. 1875 The Speaker: Clause 24: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 25 and the schedule, Mr Teare.

1880 Mr Teare: Thank you, sir. Clause 25 makes consequential adjustments to other legislation to amend references from ‘audit’ to ‘inspection’. In addition to the consequential amendments in relation to references, paragraph 8 of the referenced schedule introduces required changes to the Burials Act 1986, to change the burial 1885 authorities’ year-end from 31st December to 31st March. Mr Speaker, I beg to move clause 26 and the attached scheduled as part of this Bill.

The Speaker: Mr Watterson.

1890 Mr Watterson: I think we are moving clause 25?

Mr Teare: Sorry, clause 25.

Mr Watterson: I beg to second clause 25, Mr Speaker, and reserve my remarks. 1895 Mr Teare: That was wishful thinking! (Laughter)

The Speaker: Clause 25 and the schedule: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 1900 Finally, clause 26.

Mr Teare: And now we have clause 26 – the one we have been waiting for! Clause 26 repeals the now spent elements of section 11 (2) of the Casino Act 1987. Mr Speaker, before moving clause 26, I would like to thank my seconder for the work that he 1905 has put into this. I now beg to move that clause 26 do stand part of this Bill.

Mr Watterson: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

1910 The Speaker: Mr Quirk.

Mr Quirk: Thank you, Mr Speaker.

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I would just maybe get an opinion from the Treasury Minister. There is a requirement under the … if an organisation or charities do a tombola, you normally have to have an auditor. So I 1915 assume – I am quite happy if the Minister wants to write to me or tell me later on – you can then substitute one of the others, then – the examiner or the assurance reviewer as a certified person to sign off. (Interjection by Mr Watterson)

The Speaker: Mover to reply. 1920 Mr Teare: Sorry, that is a completely different section of legislation, sir –

The Speaker: This is not related to clause 26, is it, Hon. Member? (Interjection by Mr Quirk) However, you may deal with it. 1925 Mr Teare: So the circumstances that he has delineated would stand outside this proposed legislation, sir.

Mr Watterson: Hear, hear. 1930 The Speaker: I put the motion that clause 26 do stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Thank you, Hon. Members, that concludes the Audit (Amendment) Bill.

6.2. Highways (Amendment) Bill 2015 – Consideration of clauses deferred

Mr Gawne to move.

The Speaker: I understand and Mr Gawne has indicated already to Members that he does not 1935 intend to move clauses today for the Highways (Amendment) Bill.

6.3. War Memorials Bill 2015 – Clauses considered

Mr Watterson to move.

The Speaker: So we turn to the War Memorials Bill 2015, and I call on the mover, the Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Watterson.

Mr Watterson: Mr Speaker, clauses 1 and 2 provide for the short title and commencement 1940 provisions, and are purely introductory. I beg to move that clauses 1 and 2 stand part of the Bill.

The Speaker: Hon. Member for Castletown.

Mr Ronan: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I beg to second and reserve my remarks. 1945 The Speaker: I put the question that clauses 1 and 2 do stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 3, please.

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Mr Watterson: Clause 3 provides definitions for many of the terms used elsewhere in the Bill 1950 to clarify, among other things, what is and what is not a war memorial. Further certainty is given by providing that only those war memorials on the war memorials register receive protection. I beg to move that clause 3 stand part of the Bill.

1955 The Speaker: Mr Ronan.

Mr Ronan: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The Speaker: Clause 3: those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes 1960 have it. Clause 4.

Mr Watterson: Clause 4 defines the War Memorials Register and requires the Council of Ministers to maintain such a register. In practicality, this work is being done by the War 1965 Memorials Preservation Committee, whose secretary is based in the Cabinet Office and who has a copy of the database. I beg to move that clause 4 stand part of the Bill.

The Speaker: Mr Ronan. 1970 Mr Ronan: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The Speaker: Clause 4: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 1975 Clause 5.

Mr Watterson: Clause 5 creates a process for creating a War Memorial outside of the planning process but based on similar principles, allowing for greater flexibility than the Town & Country Planning Act would otherwise provide. The Bill requires Council of Ministers to make 1980 rules of procedure to ensure that there is appropriate transparency in the system, and those rules must be laid before Tynwald. Members will not that clause 5(5) has a minor typographical error, in that it has parts (a), (a) and (b), rather than (a), (b) and (c). After discussion with the Secretary of the House, I have been reassured that an error as trivial as this can be dealt with administratively but I feel it only right 1985 to bring it to the attention of Members and put it on the record. The Bill will of course be corrected by the drafter in the copy sent for Royal Assent. I beg to move that clause 5 stand part of the Bill.

The Speaker: Mr Ronan. 1990 Mr Ronan: Mr Speaker, I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The Speaker: Mr Quirk.

1995 Mr Quirk: Mr Speaker, if I could just ask the mover regarding planning, I suppose. What would be the method then of warning somebody that something is going to take place, or is there a mechanism?

The Speaker: Mover to reply. 2000

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Mr Watterson: Thank you. Yes, there will be a mechanism and there will be a system that is laid down and laid before Tynwald that will set out what the mechanism is for granting approval. Part of that would be the way of informing neighbours and people who live nearby that such an application has been put 2005 forward. I beg to move.

The Speaker: I put the question, clause 5: those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 2010 Clause 6.

Mr Watterson: Clause 6 provides that the owner of a registered war memorial is responsible for maintaining it. If ownership cannot be ascertained, it can be vested in the landowner on the land in which it sits, or the local authority. 2015 I beg to move that clause 6 stand part of the Bill.

The Speaker: Mr Ronan.

Mr Ronan: Thank you, Mr Speaker. 2020 I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The Speaker: Clause 6: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 7, please. 2025 Mr Watterson: Clause 7 allows an owner who can no longer maintain a war memorial to apply to the Council of Ministers to vest it in the local authority. I beg to move that clause 7 stand part of the Bill.

2030 The Speaker: Mr Ronan.

Mr Ronan: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

2035 The Speaker: I put the question, clause 7: those in favour, say aye; against, no.

Mrs Beecroft: No. Oh, sorry! (Laughter and interjections)

Mr Watterson: The voice of habit! 2040 The Speaker: The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 8.

Mr Watterson: Clause 8 reiterates many of the powers of the 1927 Act in relation to the 2045 powers of local authorities to spend money on war memorials, and includes a new power to insure them. I beg to move that clause 8 stand part of the Bill.

The Speaker: Mr Ronan. 2050 Mr Ronan: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I beg to second and reserve my remarks. Pay attention!

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The Speaker: I put the question, clause 8: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 2055 Clause 9.

Mr Watterson: The statutory protections come in clause 9 which borrows the registered building protections from the Town and Country Planning Act, and allows them to be applied with modifications to registered war memorials. 2060 These are subject to approval by Tynwald, and I beg to move that clause 9 stand part of the Bill.

The Speaker: Mr Ronan.

2065 Mr Ronan: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The Speaker: Clause 9: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 10. 2070 Mr Watterson: Clause 10 recognises that separate systems of protection under the laws of the Church of England by virtue of their faculty jurisdiction. Other denominations with similar protections may also be exempted from the Act, where the Council of Ministers believes that their protection is equivalent. 2075 Again, such an order is subject to Tynwald approval, and I beg to move that clause 10 stand part of the Bill.

The Speaker: Mr Ronan.

2080 Mr Ronan: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The Speaker: Clause 10: those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Finally clause 11, please. 2085 Mr Watterson: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Could I also thank my seconder for the work he does with the War Memorials Preservation Committee, and in doing so introduce clause 11. It repeals the 1927 War Memorials Act as all of its provisions are replicated in the Bill before you. 2090 I beg to move that clause 11 stand part of the Bill.

The Speaker: Mr Ronan.

Mr Ronan: Mr Speaker, I beg to second and reserve my remarks. 2095 The Speaker: Thank you, Hon. Members. With that we conclude the business of the House today. The House will now stand adjourned until the next sitting, which will take place at 10 o’clock on 3rd November in this Chamber.

The House adjourned at 12.12 p.m.

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