Da´Il E´Ireann

Vol. 593 Tuesday, No. 1 23 November 2004 DIÓSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES DA´ IL E´ IREANN TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised) Tuesday, 23 November 2004. Ceisteanna—Questions Taoiseach ………………………………… 1 Minister for Finance Priority Questions …………………………… 15 Other Questions …………………………… 27 Adjournment Debate Matters …………………………… 35 Leaders’ Questions ……………………………… 36 Resignation of Member …………………………… 44 Requests to move Adjournment of Daíl under Standing Order 31 ……………… 45 Order of Business ……………………………… 46 European Conventions: Motions ………………………… 56 Council of Europe Development Bank Bill 2004: Order for Report Stage …………………………… 56 Report and Final Stages …………………………… 56 Health Bill 2004: Order for Second Stage …………………………… 67 Second Stage ……………………………… 67 Private Members’ Business Roads Infrastructure: Motion ………………………… 82 Health Bill 2004: Second Stage (resumed) ……………………… 110 Adjournment Debate Hospital Services ……………………………… 142 Job Losses ………………………………… 144 Food Safety Standards …………………………… 150 Questions: Written Answers …………………………… 153 1 2 DA´ IL E´ IREANN DIÓSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL OFFICIAL REPORT Imleabhar 593 Volume 593 De´ Maírt, 23 Samhain 2004. Tuesday, 23 November 2004. ———— Chuaigh an Leas-Cheann Comhairle i gceannas ar 2.30 p.m. ———— Paidir. Prayer. ———— Ceisteanna — Questions. lation has been drafted for my Department outside the Office of the Attorney General so the ———— matter of approval does not arise. Proposed Legislation. Mr. Rabbitte: What is the Taoiseach’s view of 1. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach if the the subcontracting out of legislation to be approval of the Attorney General was sought by drafted, whether that of his Department or other his Department in regard to the subcontracting Departments, on the instructions of the Depart- out to private firms of the drafting of legislation; ment as distinct from the Attorney General? the number of occasions on which such consent Since the Taoiseach’s answer to me, which I took was given; if the Attorney General is satisfied to mean that legislation was not being subcon- with the drafting of legislation outside his office; tracted out, Deputy Burton told me that the Cen- and if he will make a statement on the matter. tral Bank Bill was contracted out at a cost of \1.5 [22145/04] million. Subsequently, before it went through 2. Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach if the Committee Stage, the Bill had to go back to the Attorney General gave approval to the subcon- Office of the Attorney General to be redrafted. tracting out to private firms of the drafting of Does that matter require consideration? legislation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [27998/04] The Taoiseach: I draw a distinction between 3. Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach if statutory instruments and Bills. The Office of the approval was given by the Attorney General to Attorney General is not opposed to statutory the subcontracting out to private firms of the instruments being sent out for drafting. It has drafting of legislation. [30191/04] recommended a list of people who are appro- The Taoiseach: I propose to take Questions priate for Departments to employ in that regard Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, together. because there is much drafting to be done and As outlined in a reply to a written parliamen- the statutory instruments are regularly handled in tary question on 29 September 2004, no legis- this way by Departments. 3 Ceisteanna — 23 November 2004. Questions 4 [The Taoiseach.] General that there should be a coherence of style It is very rare for Bills to be drafted outside the and uniformity, it would be desirable that his writ Office of the Parliamentary Counsel. I asked my should run with line Departments. Department to check how many Bills were drafted outside that office over the five-year The Taoiseach: I do not disagree with the period since the beginning of 2000. There was not Deputy but we should be clear about it. There a great deal of checking to be done. Only two are three areas to be considered. There is no Government Bills, the Adventure Activities Stan- problem with regard to the drafting of statutory dards Authority Bill 2000 and the Official Langu- instruments being done outside the Office of the ages (Equality) Bill 2002, were drafted outside Attorney General, provided the drafting is done the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel. While by people recommended by that office and who those Bills were drafted outside the Office of the are seen as competent to provide the quality of Attorney General and that of the Parliamentary drafting desired. Counsel, both were drafted by a former official in The Office of the Attorney General believes the latter office. No Bills were drafted in private practice. It should be borne in mind that over the there is merit in the heads of Bills being drafted period mentioned, 226 Bills were enacted. by people with legal qualifications in the various An outside firm with special expertise advises Departments. There are a number of such people the Department of Finance on the regulation of in the top six Departments competent to draft financial services, which relate to the Bill referred heads of Bills and the explanatory matters sur- to by Deputy Rabbitte. As part of that advice, rounding them. There are some outside the the firm prepared a sample draft of the Central Departments who have also done such work. My Bank and Financial Services Authority Bill 2003. understanding is that such work is far better done That was a substantial Bill with a large number within the office than outside it. of heads. The sample draft was presented to On the outside work — and the Central Bank Government not as a Bill but merely as heads or and Financial Services Authority Bill 2003 was an the scheme of the Bill. The Bill itself was drafted enormous Bill — the office of the Parliamentary by the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel. Counsel states that the distinction between a Bill The same situation pertained to the Unclaimed and the heads of a Bill is important in the context Life Assurance Policies Bill 2002, with an outside of the Cabinet and Oireachtas procedures, as it firm drafting the heads of the Bill for the Depart- sees them, and that the heads of a Bill are merely ment in the form of a sample draft. The Bill itself an outline of the policy objectives a Department was drafted by the Office of the Parliamentary wishes to achieve. The office of the Parliamentary Counsel. Counsel holds the view that it is not involved in These situations rarely arise. I have spoken on the preparation of the heads of Bills because a number of occasions with the Office of the policy formulation is a matter for Departments. Parliamentary Counsel, the Attorney General If the policy formulation of the heads of a Bill is and the two previous Attorneys General. They drawn up either inside or outside the office, the are not in favour of Bills being drafted by outside office of the Parliamentary Counsel lives with parties, a view I support. Their position is that that. Without putting a tooth in it, that office whenever drafting is attempted within Depart- would say that when one goes further than that, ments or by outside agencies, the quality of the the quality of the work done by those outside is drafting is not of much use to them and is not not up to a penny. I know there are people out- satisfactory. They end up doing the drafting side who will argue that it would say that, but in themselves. I do not wish to be unfair or unchari- fairness to the people in the office of the table to the outside agencies, but such drafting is Parliamentary Counsel, many of whom are not satisfactory. beyond retirement age and many of whom have expertise both in this country and outside it, they Mr. Rabbitte: The Taoiseach seems to be say- do a specialist job. They do not believe we can ing that where primary legislation was contracted out, work was done up to heads of Bill stage and give the work out. the drafting then done in the Office of the Over the years I have asked why that is the Parliamentary Counsel. Can the Taoiseach be case, and I am sure Deputy Rabbitte has experi- more clear? He has expressed the matter in one ence of this too. While somebody can draft a Bill way. Another way of putting it would be to say and even draft a Bill from the heads of a Bill, that the quality of the outside work is not up to does not give us the legislation. A parliamentary scratch and that the drafting must be done by the draftsperson must go back to God knows when Office of the Parliamentary Counsel. That is my — perhaps to the 1940s — to check the compati- understanding of the position. bility of the Bill with legislation in the 1940s, Regarding the Finance Bill to which I referred, maybe with a Bill in the 1950s, amending legislat- I am informed by Deputy Burton that the cost of ing in the 1960s and perhaps cross reference the contracting out its drafting came to \1.5 million. Bill with a Finance Act. The office feels that out- That is quite a mind-blowing figure for a single side people do not do that to any quality. Experi- Bill, no matter how substantial or complex. If the ence over a long period and with many Attornies Taoiseach agrees with the Office of the Attorney General seems to vindicate their position. 5 Ceisteanna — 23 November 2004. Questions 6 Mr. Sargent: Can I take from the Taoiseach’s These were the only Bills in the past five years reply that the Office of the Attorney General that were drafted outside the Office of the does not approve of outsourcing, and on an indi- Parliamentary Counsel.

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