Vol. 187 Wednesday, No. 22 28 November 2007

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SEANAD E´ IREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Wednesday, 28 November 2007.

Business of Seanad ………………………………1717 Order of Business …………………………………1718 Visit of Former Member ………………………………1727 Order of Business (resumed)……………………………1727 Third Programme of Law Reform: Motion ………………………1743 Realising Equality and the Traveller Community: Statements …………………1743 Report on Seanad Reform: Motion …………………………1764 Adjournment Matters Food Labelling ………………………………1801 School Facilities ………………………………1805 Schools Building Projects ……………………………1806 1717 1718

SEANAD E´ IREANN I have also received notice from Senator Brian O´ Domhnaill of the following matter: ———— The need for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to appoint a second De´ Ce´adaoin, 28 Samhain 2007. permanent District Court judge and the allo- Wednesday, 28 November 2007. cation of a second permanent judge in County Donegal to reduce the large backlog in the Cir- ———— cuit and District courts services. Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar I have also received notice from Senator Paschal 2.30 p.m. Donohoe of the following matter: The need for the Minister for Justice, ———— Equality and Law Reform to clarify when the Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2006 Paidir. will be presented before either House of the Prayer. Oireachtas and when it will be enacted.

———— I regard the matters raised by Senators Frances Fitzgerald, Maria Corrigan, Cecilia Keaveney, David Norris, Pearse Doherty and Brian O´ Business of Seanad. Domhnaill as suitable for discussion on the An Cathaoirleach: I have notice from Senator Adjournment. I have selected the matters raised Frances Fitzgerald that, on the motion for the by Senators Frances Fitzgerald, Maria Corrigan Adjournment of the House today, she proposes and Cecilia Keaveney and they will be taken at to raise the following matter: the conclusion of business. Senators David Norris, Pearse Doherty and Brian O´ Domhnaill The need for the Minister for Education and may give notice on another day of the matters Science to clarify the situation regarding the they wish to raise. I regret I have to rule out of playing field beside the church (details order the matter raised by Senator Donohoe as supplied) which was previously used by Scoil the enactment of the legislation is now a matter Chro´ na´in, Rathcoole, County Dublin, but for the Houses. cannot be utilised currently owing to the state it has been left in following upgrade works to Order of Business. the N7, if her Department owns this field and if so, if she has any intention of selling it for Senator Donie Cassidy: The Order of Business development. is No. 1, motion re the third programme of law reform, referral to committee without debate, to I have also received notice from Senator Maria be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Busi- Corrigan of the following matter: ness ; No. 2, statements on realising equality and The need for the Minister for Education and the Traveller community, to be taken at the con- Science to provide a progress report on the clusion of No. 1 and to conclude no later than 5 provision of the much needed permanent p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not school building for the Holy Trinity national to exceed ten minutes and those of all other school, Leopardstown. Senators not to exceed eight minutes and on which Senators may share time by agreement of I have also received notice from Senator Cecilia the House, with the Minister to be given five Keaveney of the following matter: minutes to conclude at 4.55 p.m.; and No. 13, motion 32 re Seanad reform, to be taken at the The need for the Minister for Health and conclusion of No. 2. Children to encourage alcohol labelling in respect of calorie content on all products. Senator Liam Twomey: I look forward to a I have also received notice from Senator David very robust debate on Seanad reform. We look Norris of the following matter: forward to the Minister’s arrival in the House. In respect of what has been said in the Lower The need for the Minister for Justice, House about cancer services and the motion of Equality and Law Reform to intervene to no confidence in the Minister for Health and secure the well-being of a person (details Children, one of the comments the Minister made supplied) who is threatened with deportation. last night related to the Opposition parties work- I have also received notice from Senator Pearse ing with the Government on cancer care services. Doherty of the following matter: I take this opportunity to inform the Minister that most of the Opposition parties agree fully with The need for the Minister for Transport to the cancer strategy and that all through 2006 and introduce measures to reduce the exorbitant the beginning of 2007, when I was Fine Gael cost of motor insurance in this State, especially spokesperson on health, we fully supported her. for young drivers. What we were looking for was an implementation 1719 Order of 28 November 2007. Business 1720

[Senator Liam Twomey.] Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Government will policy. I wish to put on the record of this House call us up. that the Opposition supports the Minister in respect of cancer services. Senator Liam Twomey: Perhaps we need The Minister has received incredible support another debate on cancer services to inform fully over recent years from the Opposition in respect any Member of this House who seems to be very of some major issues in the health service. I misled by the spin he or she is getting from the backed her in respect of getting a consultants’ Departments about what we are promoting and contract because this is the basis of all the prob- supporting. lems we are seeing. A Senator: Hear, hear. Senator Geraldine Feeney: Hear, hear. Senator Liam Twomey: Perhaps we need Senator Liam Twomey: We still have not seen another debate on this issue because what this this new consultants’ contract. I would like the side of the House supports is obviously not get- Minister to know that she has received incredible ting through to people. support from the Opposition but for some reason, We need to revisit the issue of road safety after her ears are blocked to that support. Perhaps that the terrible tragedies that recently took place. It is part of the problem. was only four years ago that I came upon an acci- dent where two young children died at the scene. Senator Geraldine Feeney: Perhaps the leader It is the most stressful situation for medical of Senator Twomey’s party should come out workers to be involved in but nobody will ever with that. comprehend the sadness and grief that families who see young children die will experience for Senator Jerry Buttimer: He is very consensus- the rest of their lives. It is horrifying and we need orientated. another debate on road safety to find out what is going on. Senator Liam Twomey: The leader of my party Concerns have been raised that the proposal to is very much aware of this issue. lower the blood-alcohol limits from 80 mg to 50 mg was included in the first draft report on road Senator Geraldine Feeney: He does not say it. safety by the Road Safety Authority but was dropped from the final report. We all know that (Interruptions). alcohol and drugs are a major cause of road acci- dents. We do not see the leadership we expected An Cathaoirleach: Senator Twomey, without in reducing road deaths. That is not connected to interruption. this terrible tragedy but we must reduce the Senator Geraldine Feeney: The leader of number of deaths on our roads. It will be a ter- Senator Twomey’s party should come out and rible year for so many families across the country deliver it. and it is time we revisited the debate. Another matter on which I ask the Leader to An Cathaoirleach: Senator Twomey, without seek clarification is the crisis in Portlaoise. It is interruption. well known that Dr. Ann O’Doherty interviewed the doctor at the centre of the crisis at Portlaoise Senator Liam Twomey: This just shows that Hospital. Can the Minister confirm that Dr. when we try to help the Government out of a O’Doherty raised concerns about the ability of mess, it cannot even take it upon itself to get the the doctor to run the service in Portlaoise during facts right. the interview and that she was overruled by the HSE, which continued with the appointment? If A Senator: Hear, hear. true, it means the expert opinion of Dr. O’Doherty on the doctor’s capability was Senator Jerry Buttimer: We are the consensus ignored. The House must find out if that is true. party. Concerns have been raised about locums in Cork and we must examine what has gone wrong with Senator Liam Twomey: We fully support the medical manpower in the health services. Government in respect of sorting out things. Senator Joe O’Toole: Last week and the week Senator Jerry Buttimer: When the Govern- before I suggested a debate on legislation that ment is in trouble, it will call us up. established the HSE, the Health Act 2004. This would allow an informed debate on the different Senator Geraldine Feeney: It has been laid out roles of people. It is crucifying to hear views in for Fine Gael. It must support it. the public debate and the Da´il debate as if people never read or debated the legislation previously. An Cathaoirleach: Senator Twomey, without Perhaps it is the trade unionist in me but I tend interruption. to react strongly when I hear calls for people to 1721 Order of 28 November 2007. Business 1722 be sacked. I examine matters such as due process Senator Alex White: Before dealing with the and I regret that we cannot have another debate matter I wish to raise, I must respectfully disagree on it. I would not support a motion of no confi- with what the leader of the Independent group dence in the Minister for Health and Children, said regarding political accountability. Deputy Harney. It does not achieve anything and brings us back to what has happened in the Senator David Norris: He is not the leader. House for 20 years. This does not deal with accountability, responsibility and the difference Senator Alex White: Someone very like him between the two. I pleaded in the House for the attends leaders’ meetings. Perhaps he has a past two weeks, anticipating the current position. double. People do not know who should be held respon- sible. It is like saying there is a teacher in the west Senator David Norris: Senator Alex White will abusing children so we should sack the Minister learn eventually. for Education and Science. That is the level of logic prevailing. Senator Alex White: The question of political accountability does not extend to holding a Mini- Senator Camillus Glynn: That is correct. ster responsible for a failing that happens in a hospital. That would be nonsensical. The analogy Senator Joe O’Toole: I believe in holding the given by Senator O’Toole is wrong. Where the Minister to account and disagree fundamentally system is not working — as the Senator stated, with many of her views. I will continue to debate the Minister established that system — there them. There must be proper due process and a must be political accountability. Is the Opposition clear understanding of accountability so that supposed to just sit back and wait? Senator when there is a change of Government, the next O’Toole stated that this is not a political issue at Minister with responsibility for health, if he or present. When will it become a political issue? Of she comes from this side of the House, will not course it is such an issue. There could not be a have to put up with the same attitude from the more political issue than the crisis in the health Members who are then in Opposition. It happens service. all the time. There must be accountability and Will the Leader ask the Minister for Finance, responsibility and the difference between the two when he deals with the matter with which he will should be understood. be preoccupied next week, to come before the House to engage in a debate on public services If I could see the risk register for Portlaoise and on any reforms he envisages, particularly in Hospital and the risk register at various levels of light of the interesting speech on public service the health service I could find out who needs to reform he delivered at last week’s Indecon con- be brought to book in 20 minutes. If the Minister ference? Will the Minister come to the House and has not set up structures it is her fault. If she has, indicate any proposals he may have in this area, and other people are not operating them cor- particularly in light of the comments he made last rectly as seems to be the case, it is the fault of week and in view of the less thoughtful and ill- others. If it is not the person at the top, and it considered remarks made by the Minister of State need not be, we must find out where are the with responsibility for trade and commerce, problems and single this area out for action. Deputy McGuinness? The latter was the benefici- The worst thing would be for Professor Drumm ary of what must count as the most remarkable to leave the HSE. I remember how hard it was to employment expansion scheme in the public get someone to take up the job. We must keep service. I refer here to the Taoiseach’s appoint- that in mind. I seek a debate where people could ment of additional Ministers of State in recent put their finger on the issue. We know how the months. women have suffered and there is consensus on Does the Minister for Finance agree with the the matter. Let nobody say it again. We know the comments of the Minister of State, Deputy Minister oversaw the legislation. Did she apply McGuinness, to the effect that the public service the legislation correctly? If it did not work whose and its systems are a joke? If that is the level of fault is it? This is not a political issue. debate we can expect from Ministers, what hope Senator Brian O´ Domhnaill and a number of is there for this House to debate serious issues other speakers raised the old chestnut of people such as value for money and the important role with holiday homes in the west objecting to hous- the public service has to play in our society and ing for people in the west. The situation is its economy? The public service will lie at the chaotic. The type of behaviour to which I refer to heart of the economy’s future and remarks such is happening everywhere. There should be some as those to which I refer will not help promote connection between objectors and the areas in debate here or in the Lower House. which they are objecting to developments. We introduced legislation to stop councillors approv- Senator Cecilia Keaveney: In light of the fact ing breaches of planning in places to which they that there appear to have been positive devel- are not connected. We should introduce a similar opments in respect of pharmacists and that system in respect of ordinary objectors. changes relating to the leaving certificate were 1723 Order of 28 November 2007. Business 1724

[Senator Cecilia Keaveney.] can object to a proposal for a principal private announced earlier this week, will the Leader indi- dwelling of a local resident. I would greatly wel- cate the position regarding a matter to which I come a debate on this. referred previously, namely, the animal welfare Bill? Would it be possible to arrange a debate on Senator De´irdre de Bu´ rca: I wish to respond what will be the content of that legislation in briefly to comments made by the Opposition with order that we might deal with it before it becomes regard to the health crisis. As a member of a a fait accompli. Government party I welcome the Opposition’s I echo the sympathetic and empathic comments support for the cancer care strategy being already made in respect of those who were implemented. Unfortunately, this is not always involved in recent fatal road accidents. We obvious in the behaviour or public utterances of already had a debate on the overall position the Opposition parties. The Minister’s call for a regarding road safety. Would it be possible for bipartisan approach to reforming our health the Leader to discover whether it is a matter for services was one of the most sensible I heard. a Minister or the National Roads Authority to examine whether it would be possible for fluor- Senator Alex White: How about co-location? escent strips or cats eyes to be placed on the cement bases of all traffic islands? When I raised Senator Frances Fitzgerald: Senator de Bu´ rca this issue at council level, I was informed that it will have to get her own troops lined up. was the responsibility of the NRA, and when I raised it with the latter, those with whom I spoke Senator De´irdre de Bu´ rca: The Opposition par- indicated their belief that it was not proper to ties should cease to be political on this—— the authority. Will the Leader indicate whether this matter is Senator Alex White: Does Senator de Bu´ rca the responsibility of the Minister for the Envir- now support co-location? onment, Heritage and Local Government or whether it is a devolved function of the NRA? Senator De´irdre de Bu´ rca: ——and try to work Many of the roads affected would not fall under on the reform of the health services which is in the remit of the NRA. Everyone who travels by all of our interests. car is aware that on many traffic islands, the lights Will the Leader invite to the House the Mini- either do not work or are dirty. The part of these ster for Arts, Sports and Tourism to respond to islands that one cannot see is the large cement the issues raised yesterday by the chief executive base. The inclusion of fluorescent strips at the of Fa´ilte Ireland, Mr. Sean Quinn, at its annual bottom of these structures might help reduce the conference? He expressed concern that the tour- number of accidents. I do not refer in this regard ism industry may be attracting people to the to the most recent accidents that have occurred island on false pretences as, while we market our- but to those what might happen in the future. selves internationally as a tourism destination on the basis of a clean, green environment, increas- Senator Paul Coghlan: It would be an ingly this is under threat. Mr. Quinn called on the immensely retrograde step if, as proposals from tourism industry to be far more pro-active, act in the Minister for Transport seem to indicate, the a more environmentally-friendly way and be an two longest established coast guard stations in the advocate and lobbying voice for greater environ- country at Valentia and Malin were to lose their mental protection to preserve and protect the rescue co-ordination functions. Apart from the basis of the tourism industry. He mentioned that difficulties for the staff involved, this smacks of an environmental unit was established within centralisation as opposed to what the Govern- Fa´ilte Ireland which will devise policies to do so. ment has been preaching — we supported it in The Minister could address these issues and give this regard — in respect of decentralisation. Fine us an idea how this new role for Fa´ilte Ireland buildings exist in these locations and presumably could be developed and expanded. a staff guarantee is in place. However, the Mini- ster is creating doubt about their future. Most Senator David Norris: I listened from the Da´il importantly, a consultant’s report in 2002 recom- Gallery to the speech of Mary Harney last night mended that both of these locations be upgraded. and it was a remarkable performance. I do not They are more than suitably located for the pur- use the word “performance” in a scathing manner poses for which they exist and I do not under- and I do not wish to suggest there was anything stand this. Will the Leader ask the Minister for theatrical about it. It was a speech of passionate Transport to attend House or guide me as to how conviction and I respect this. I have ideological this matter should be approached? It is differences with her and I have made them plain extremely serious. in this House. What horrified me was her state- I support the call made by Senator O’Toole ment that she was made aware of the ultrasound with regard to the planning matter raised last problem in Portlaoise only on Wednesday at a week. It is ridiculous that people living a few hun- meeting with other people, spent 24 hours trying dred miles away and known in some parts of the to get a satisfactory answer from the HSE and country as “Julys” or “holiday home merchants” failed to do so. 1725 Order of 28 November 2007. Business 1726

It is astounding that the Minister for Health An Cathaoirleach: I do not want Senator and Children cannot extract information from the Norris to give a lecture to anyone here. As an bureaucracy. It confirms everything stated, not in experienced Senator, I ask him to respect the a partisan way or on this side of the House, but Chair and his rulings. by Members on the other side of the House and by Ministers. This worries me because clearly a Senator David Norris: I very much respect the real problem exists with regard to information Chair and I have made that clear. flow. I tried to raise on the Adjournment the case of This is not confined, however, to the Depart- a woman from Nigeria, whose name is made privy ment of Health and Children. As I left the in the documents I supplied. In 2004 this woman Chamber I encountered a Cabinet leak. As a arrived in the country at the age of 15 and she is result of this I was able to inform our dis- now 19. She is being deported, even though she tinguished Leader that a decision had been made is half-way through a degree course and has her to embark on Seanad reform, which will scruti- leaving certificate. She is unsupported and has no nise the university seats in particular. It was a family, having been separated by the situation she very interesting proposal and I welcome it but it experienced, yet we are throwing her back to is time we examined the rest of the seats. We Nigeria. should put an end to their method of election, I tried to put a motion on the Order Paper although I am not casting aspersions on the requesting the Government to hold a referendum people who managed to arrive here by a plainly on removing the word “Christian” from the Con- corrupt system. If we are looking for rotten bor- stitution because of our signal failure to act in a oughs, they are all around this House but they Christian manner towards these people but I are not in the six universities. could not get a single person to sign my motion. It is utter hypocrisy. We bleat about the undocu- An Cathaoirleach: That issue can be debated mented Irish in America but we are sending a girl tonight. back to a country where we know she will end up on the streets. Senator David Norris: I was confirmed in my An Cathaoirleach: That is a matter for the opinion by what I saw on Monday night of avar- Adjournment. iciousness and lack of integrity among council- lors. I am amazed at the lickspittling of local auth- Senator David Norris: I ask in this case and in orities that continues because they are Senators’ the case of the autistic boy who was sent back to constituencies. Nigeria that the Irish embassy in Lagos be required to follow through and find out what hap- An Cathaoirleach: A debate will be held later pened to these people. It is not good enough that this evening on the issue of Seanad reform. We we throw them out of this country and land them do not want that debate now. The Senator is very on the streets. We may turn them to lives of pros- experienced but he should refer to Ministers as titution but we do not give a damn once they have “Minister” or “Deputy” rather than by name. left this island.

Senator David Norris: I accept the Cathaoir- An Cathaoirleach: The Senator made his leach’s direction. I acted with no disrespect and, point well. in that regard, am astonished he did not rebuke a previous speaker who did precisely the same Senator John Ellis: I am delighted that Senator and who also referred to doctors by name. I Norris is going to welcome others to the register should not have to remind the House of the tra- of voters on the university panels. dition that people are not named when they are I refer again to the debate I have sought with not here to defend themselves. the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and When reforms are introduced, we will want to Local Government concerning constituency ensure we do not create a completely unwork- revision and the Constituency Commission’s able constituency. report. I note that we will have a debate this evening on the university panels for the Seanad. An Cathaoirleach: On the Order of Business. I appeal to the Leader to ask the Minister to address the matter I have raised. Senator David Norris: It will comprise at least Few Members of either House are aware of the 250,000 electors and could be as many as 500,000. consequences of the Murphy judgment, which That would suit me and I will take on any little means that county boundaries will be halved and political squirt that the parties produce. small segments will be transferred from one county to another. It is time we examined the (Interruptions). identities we all possess in terms of our counties in order that no future boundary commission will Senator David Norris: I have made up my be allowed to breach county boundaries, even if mind. I certainly will run in the next election. that means increasing the number of Members in 1727 Order of 28 November 2007. Business (Resumed) 1728

[Senator John Ellis.] Senator Liam Twomey: The information is these Houses. That has been suggested but it was more than two years old. wrongly rejected by the commission. I ask that an all-party committee be established by both Senator Ann Ormonde: Last evening, I Houses to examine the future with regard to attended an all-party committee meeting chaired boundary commissions and how Da´il constituenc- by Deputy John Cregan to discuss the role of the ies are defined. friends of the undocumented Irish in the United States and how best we can make progress on this Senator Dominic Hannigan: It is unfair of issue. I commend Deputy Cregan’s efforts in this Senator Norris to tar all councillors with the same regard. Members should press ahead with the cur- brush. As a former county councillor I know the rent bipartisan approach. I have also discussed vast majority of councillors would not dream of this issue with the Minister for Foreign Affairs, becoming involved in the antics referred to in the Deputy Dermot Ahern, who has made a number programme shown on television the other night of trips to the United States to lobby on behalf to which the Senator referred. Using the of the Irish in America. We should invite the Chamber to spread unsubstantiated allegations Minister to the House to debate Deputy Cregan’s about the councillor body as a whole is wrong and initiative which has been debated in the Lower I ask Senator Norris to be more considered in his House. Such a debate would give Senators an contributions in future. opportunity to show support for the bipartisan Many Senators, including the Leader and some approach and identify how best to proceed. Front Bench spokespersons, attended the meet- ing of the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body Senator Frances Fitzgerald: On the question of held in Oxfordshire in recent days. achieving consensus on health policy, it is not a 3 o’clock Lord Dubs led a particularly lack of support from the Opposition which has interesting debate about the Irish led to the problems in the health service. I remind community in Britain. A paper he prepared on Senators that the Minister for Health and Chil- the issue showed a vast difference in the experi- dren and her two most recent predecessors, the ence of those who emigrated to Britain in the past Ministers for Finance and Enterprise, Trade and 20 years as compared to those who emigrated in Employment, Deputies Cowen and Martin, the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. The more recent respectively, belong to parties which have had a arrivals have tended to integrate better and have majority in the House for the past ten years, dur- found it much easier to maintain links with ing which time they had control of the Depart- Ireland owing to factors such as lower travel costs ment. Lack of Opposition support was not the and improvements in communications, including reason the Minister was unable, as she informed access to the Internet. We need to address the the media the other day, to obtain information issue of how we can support elderly emigrants in from the Health Service Executive. She has effec- the United Kingdom. Will the Leader ask the tively admitted she cannot get satisfaction from Minister to come before the House to hold a the organisation she created or the manager she debate on the elderly Irish in Britain and how appointed. This sounds like a case of hands-off Members can improve their lot? politics. Patients deserve more and if the Minister wants to put them first, she must find out what is Visit of Former Member. going on in the health service. It is ridiculous to hear Government Senators imply this is a prob- An Cathaoirleach: I welcome former Senator, lem created by the Opposition. It does not speak Deputy and MEP, Mr. Liam Hyland, who is in to the facts as they emerged at a recent commit- the Visitors Gallery. Liam has given great service tee meeting. to the country. When I spoke last week about two further women being diagnosed with breast cancer, little Order of Business (Resumed). did I think we would hear about 97 more women Senator Ann Ormonde: I congratulate the a few hours later. Responsibility must be put on Minister for Health and Children, Deputy those responsible, which is what is being said in Harney, on her fine contribution in the Other the Da´il. We must have accountability and some- House last night when she outlined the events of one must be accountable. We cannot have two the past week and noted her inability to extract parallel structures where one person, particularly information from the Health Service Executive. I the person meant to be in charge, does not know am pleased Senator Twomey has indicated his what is happening within the HSE. It was the party is prepared to work with the Minister on Minister who created the HSE. the quality cancer care service. An Cathaoirleach: Does the Senator seek a Senator Liam Twomey: My party has always debate? worked with the Minister. Senator Frances Fitzgerald: If she wants to Senator Ann Ormonde: It is great to hear that, reform the HSE, legislation to reform its struc- even if it is late in the day. tures should be brought to the House. 1729 Order of 28 November 2007. Business (Resumed) 1730

I agree with my colleague on the issue of road Senator Frances Fitzgerald: Ask the Minister of safety. Will the Leader raise the issue of poor State at the Department of Health and Children, signage on road works throughout the country Deputy Devins, what he wants from the cancer with the Minister for Transport, particularly with strategy. regard to changes in road layout? We see this serious problem on a daily basis and must see An Cathaoirleach: Order, please. more action from local authorities on the matter. I agree with Senator Keaveney that we need Senator Geraldine Feeney: It is no wonder better signage where traffic layout is changed Fine Gael Members come in here without any because the lack of adequate signage leads to initiatives or bright ideas. They are bereft of serious accidents. ideas.

Senator Geraldine Feeney: I support the call Senator Jerry Buttimer: Where is the consen- by Senator Ellis for a debate on the carving up of sus between the Minister and the Minister of counties by the boundary commission and ask the State on the issue? Leader to arrange a debate on the issue. I am bewildered by Senator Twomey’s call for An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has made her another debate on cancer services. This would be point. the third debate on cancer services in two months and the Minister’s fifth time in the House in less Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Government is for than two months. Last week she was in the House nothing and against everything. for three hours. I was in the Da´il Chamber last night and listened to what she had to say. I An Cathaoirleach: Order, please. The Member remind Members that the Mullingar accord, is entitled to speak and people are given the which was agreed before the most recent general opportunity to speak. If I have time, I will give election between Fine Gael and the Labour Party those who wish to speak the opportunity to do so, — I am glad the Labour Party has not supported but they should wait their turn. If they have the Fine Gael call for a debate — had 12 priori- spoken, they should have made their contribution ties. Not one of them—— on the issue at the time. I ask the Senator to be brief. Her point has been well made. An Cathaoirleach: We can have this debate in a discussion on health services if that is what the Senator Geraldine Feeney: I will be. I am not Senator is seeking. surprised by the daft ideas the Fine Gael Members come up with. Not one of them would Senator Geraldine Feeney: ——listed cancer hold a candle to the Minister for Health and services. Children.

Senator Liam Twomey: We were backing the Senator Liam Twomey: What ideas are they? Government cancer strategy. There was no need to list it. Senator Geraldine Feeney: I support Senator O’Toole’s call for a debate on the HSE. An Cathaoirleach: Order, please. Senator Liam Twomey: The Senator does not Senator Geraldine Feeney: The Fine Gael even know what they stand for. Party is a Johnny-come-lately to all of this. Senator Geraldine Feeney: Let us look at Senator Liam Twomey: Try working with us. where this has gone wrong and stop going for the man instead of the ball. Senator Geraldine Feeney: It is no wonder—— Senator Pearse Doherty: It has been quite diffi- (Interruptions). cult to listen to some of this debate and I hope it is not broadcast on “Oireachtas Report” tonight. An Cathaoirleach: On the Order of Business, The debate should be about the victims of the please. flawed health policy the Minister has overseen. It would be hard for victims of the service that has Senator Frances Fitzgerald: Ask the Minister been provided down the years across the State to of State what he wants from the cancer strategy. listen to the political toing and froing taking place in this Chamber without any reference to them. An Cathaoirleach: People have had an oppor- I call for a debate on an issue on which I have tunity to speak on the Order of Business and I asked for a debate on a number of occasions and ask them to let others speak now. which has been supported in the House today, namely, the undocumented Irish. I believe there Senator Maurice Cummins: The junior Mini- is cross-party consensus on adopting a motion in ster from Sligo is against his own Minister on this Chamber, without debate if necessary. It is the issue. disrespectful to the undocumented Irish and to 1731 Order of 28 November 2007. Business (Resumed) 1732

[Senator Pearse Doherty.] of Health and Children is the policy Department those who are lobbying that this Chamber has and the Health Service Executive must ensure the failed to introduce this motion three weeks after provision of service. In regard to Senator it has been requested. I have made such a request O’Toole’s point, the HSE is the issue. every week since. Senators from across the politi- We have moved from a situation of 14 health cal divide have echoed that request. I ask, as a boards which had local democratic input by way matter of urgency, that it be brought before the of local public representatives who were doing a House. pretty good job. I accept there may have been I reiterate a call for the Minister for Transport room for improvement but to go from 14 health to come into the House and discuss the infrastruc- boards to an executive simply has not worked. I tural deficiencies in the west and north west, have stated that so far as I am concerned, the jury especially around the Atlantic road corridor, the is out on the HSE but it is time to deliver the status of the project and if it will be put on hold. verdict because I believe the HSE is not working. There is also the issue of the western rail corridor, Would it be possible for the Leader to indicate the Donegal-Sligo link and public transport in if we have the power under standing orders to rural areas, particularly in the west and north call the HSE before a sub-committee or a com- west. Anyone who represents those areas has mittee of this House and, if so, could he advise seen a withdrawal of services in recent months me how to go about it? and years. In my county of Donegal we have seen such a withdrawal in Malin and west An Cathaoirleach: The Oireachtas joint com- Donegal—— mittee is the forum on which there is represen- tation by Deputies and Senators. I think that is An Cathaoirleach: The Senator can raise those the proper forum at which those people should matters if he gets a debate. Time is running out. attend. However, it is a matter for the Leader.

Senator Pearse Doherty: I call for a debate on Senator Ivana Bacik: What is clear from what this issue because—— has been said in the discussion about the health service and the current crisis in Portlaoise in An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has sought that cancer care is that, for the sake of the women and debate. If the Leader agrees to it, the Senator can their families who are suffering terribly at this make all those points. I ask Senators to make time, the key question that must be asked in this brief contributions. House and elsewhere is who is responsible.

Senator Pearse Doherty: In that debate I ask Senator Joe O’Toole: Hear, hear. that we also address what Senator Coghlan has mentioned, namely, the issue of the marine res- Senator Ivana Bacik: If nobody will take cue co-ordination centres in Malin Head and responsibility, why not? It is clear the Minister Valentia where jobs will be lost because of the bears ultimate responsibility for a system which Government’s position on this issue. she set up and which appears to be responsible for failures in communication, diagnosis and Senator Cecilia Keaveney: No jobs will be lost. treatment. If not the Minister, why has somebody lower down the hierarchy not resigned? Senator Ivor Callely: Will the Leader seek clar- ity on an issue I have raised in this House regard- Senator Jerry Buttimer: Hear, hear. ing the Health Service Executive and the reim- bursement prices to pharmacists? As late as last Senator Ivana Bacik: In Britain, the head of night I was advised that the HSE has deferred the Revenue and Customs took the responsibility and implementation date of 1 December 2007 for the resigned following an error of which he was new reimbursement prices. When I contacted clearly unaware. Nobody in the HSE, the Depart- pharmacists I learned they were unaware of this ment of Health and Children, Portlaoise Hospital deferral. This decision is unacceptable. All the or anywhere else in the health care system has HSE has said is that the decision has been yet taken responsibility for the terrible situation deferred to a later date. I ask that clarity be in which these women find themselves. sought from the HSE on whether it agrees that I renew my call for a debate on the restoration an independent chair be appointed, as I have of universal child benefit to children of asylum sought, to work out an appropriate negotiation seekers who are in receipt of direct provision. and on when such talks will commence. When I called for such a debate on the Adjourn- I wish to raise an issue which has been referred ment last week, the Minister for Social and to by many speakers, that is, the Department of Family Affairs responded by stating asylum seek- Health and Children and the Health Service ers were receiving direct provision in lieu of child Executive. I have said previously that there is a benefit. Direct provision is only \9.60 per week great deal of confusion about who is responsible per child for the approximately 2,000 children of for what. I asked if we could have a briefing docu- asylum seekers. By contrast, child benefit is \160 ment. My understanding is that the Department per month, or approximately \40 per week. Yes- 1733 Order of 28 November 2007. Business (Resumed) 1734 terday I spoke at an Irish Refugee Council launch An Cathaoirleach: Senator Glynn has made to call for an increase in the amounts payable his point. under direct provision in order that they would be at least equivalent to the amount paid in child Senator Camillus Glynn: Who carried out the benefit and close to the sum of \40 per week. X-rays in Portlaoise? Was it the Minister for I again ask the Leader to convene a debate on Health and Children? It was not. the terrible situation of children of asylum seek- ers in particular, who are in real poverty and to Senator Liam Twomey: Who is responsible? whom we are simply not paying adequate social welfare. Senator Camillus Glynn: There was not one mistake; there were nine of which we know. Senator Camillus Glynn: I have listened to the debate on the Minister for Health and Children Senator Liam Twomey: The Senator should in this and the other House. She has my full confi- make up his mind who is responsible. He does dence. She has more political guts than the com- not know and cannot say. bined anatomy of the entire Opposition. Senator Camillus Glynn: It is an operational Senator Liam Twomey: And the Government, matter. probably. Senator Liam Twomey: The Senator should not Senator Jerry Buttimer: They were fairly short mind operational matters. Someone is of consensus across the Chamber last night. responsible.

Senator Camillus Glynn: I spent many years in Senator Camillus Glynn: The people who made the health services. When there were operational the mistake should take the rap. difficulties, the person—— An Cathaoirleach: Senators should remember An Cathaoirleach: Is the Senator seeking a we are on the Order of Business. debate on health? Senator Jerry Buttimer: I join Members in call- Senator Camillus Glynn: Yes. When there was ing for a debate on cancer services. On this an operational difficulty, the Minister for Health occasion, the Opposition cannot be blamed for and Children was not responsible. She must have the debacle and mess that has been created by multi-locational and multifaceted talents. She can the Members opposite and their colleagues in be here, there and everywhere. If there is a prob- Government. lem on a ward, it is that of the Minister for Health The Minister came to this House but the reality and Children. was she did not know what was going on. It is time we had a proper, fully informed debate. We Senator Jerry Buttimer: This is nonsense. need political accountability. Today, in my city of Cork, more people are in trouble because of the Senator Camillus Glynn: What became of the failure of the health system. operational staff who are discharging the responsibilities of the Minister for Health and Senator Ann Ormonde: Come off it. Children? Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Members Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Senator cannot opposite cannot defend it, and they know it. have it both ways. Shame on them.

A Senator: He does not understand political Senator Cecilia Keaveney: The Minister is the accountability. one who will clean it up. Senator Camillus Glynn: People are paid to do An Cathaoirleach: Senator Buttimer has made those jobs. Let them do them. his point. I call Senator Harris. Senator Liam Twomey: Who is responsible? Senator Eoghan Harris: I would like Members Senator Camillus Glynn: The people who are to take a quiet moment to reflect on the principle being paid to do the job. The Senator knows that. of a bipartisan approach, which was referred to by the Minister last night. One of the most Senator Liam Twomey: Who is responsible? esteemed names in modern Irish politics is that of Alan Dukes because of the Tallaght strategy. Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Senator cannot Before that, in the 1920s, de Valera allowed the have it both ways. facts to bring him into a bipartisan policy. We also had such a policy throughout the Troubles. Senator Camillus Glynn: The Senator knows It is clear to all of us that difficulties in certain that. areas of Irish life and public life will be solved 1735 Order of 28 November 2007. Business (Resumed) 1736

[Senator Eoghan Harris.] Senator Alan Kelly: I said that at the begin- only by a bipartisan approach. While we might ning. The environment is one of the biggest issues argue about what these are, there would not be and the others are the access debacle, particularly any argument — if, for example, a major row in the mid-west, competitiveness, product were to break out about immigration in the development and the various marketing chal- middle of a recession — that the Upper and lenges facing us. Lower Houses could not be turned into bear pits, A number of Senators raised the issue of the with people’s lives and the lives of those in mar- undocumented in the United States. I was one of ginalised communities being debated in a political the few who attended an all-party meeting on this roughhouse. We would have to adopt a bipartisan issue last night. It is a pity there was not a larger approach in such circumstances. We had to adopt attendance but significant business was going on one with regard to Northern Ireland and we will in the Da´il at the time. I took the liberty of get- not reform the public sector without one. ting in contact with some of those on the commit- I do not believe the Minister, Deputy Harney, tee that is trying to promote the cause of the was playing politics in seeking a bipartisan undocumented in America. I know some of them approach because the same systemic problems quite well personally. This is an area on which are in the health service that were in Northern we must maintain a collective cross-party view. Ireland. One cannot deal with the health service Unfortunately, however, the people who have unless all parties are agreed that some tough been doing their best in recent years to help the measures will have to be taken to deal with the undocumented through various strategies in vested interests involved. many cases believe the current Minister is not I strongly urge Fine Gael, Fianna Fa´il, the doing all he can in order to achieve this. Labour Party and the Independent Senators to take some of the heat out of this debate. We have Senator Jim Walsh: That is not correct. It is a had weeks of debate in the media but at the end cover up and the Senator knows it. The Senator’s of it I do not think the public knows a lot more. brother would have told him that. People are angrier but not much more light has Senator Alan Kelly: Unfortunately, that view been cast on the matter. Deep down people get has emanated but it can be changed quite quickly angry when politicians carry on partisan warfare as the Minister will be visiting US government as the public knows the problems are systemic. representatives soon. I welcome the fact that The public respects the Minister and knows she Northern Ireland’s First Minister and Deputy has taken on a terrible job. The public also knows First Minister will be raising the issue when they there is a vested interest and I have repeatedly meet their counterparts in the United States on heard the Opposition closing with that issue, 7 December. which is right, but every so often the Opposition and the Government again fall back into partisan Senator Donie Cassidy: Senators Twomey, rows. As a preparation for the forthcoming diffi- Norris, Ormonde, Fitzgerald, Feeney, Doherty, culties in dealing with immigration, I strongly Callely, Bacik, Glynn, Buttimer and Harris all recommend that we agree on areas where we can expressed serious concerns about events that adopt a bipartisan approach. These include the have occurred since we met last Thursday. No public sector, immigration, Northern Ireland and one could have foretold what would happen fol- health. lowing the Minister’s address to the House, when she explained in minute detail the position con- Senator Alan Kelly: I concur with Senator de cerning her portfolio. One could only admire her Bu´ rca’s call for the Minister for Arts, Sport and vast knowledge and grasp of her brief. We as Tourism to attend the House. I have lost count of public representatives, however, must acknowl- the number of times I have made the same edge that the communications system that existed request — perhaps six or seven times. Yesterday, under the former health boards has completely Mr. Sea´n Quinn commented specifically on the changed since the move to the HSE structure. Is environment in Ireland and bringing people here it any wonder, therefore, that the Minister could under false pretences. Unfortunately, the self not find out the up-to-date information on this same chief executive has an area within his organ- matter? All fair-minded people would say the isation for planning and the environment, which buck must stop somewhere. If neither the Mini- is totally underfunded and has been for a number ster nor the CEO of the HSE is being supplied of years. I take his comments with a grain of salt, with information, then—— however, because the resources are not there. I know the individuals concerned and I have Senator Cecilia Keaveney: Someone is engaged worked with them; there is one person and an in sabotage. assistant. Senator Donie Cassidy: ——someone is trying An Cathaoirleach: Is the Senator seeking a to sabotage the HSE, as established by legislation debate on the matter? passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas. 1737 Order of 28 November 2007. Business (Resumed) 1738

Senator Nicky McFadden: It is disconnected. the House. Most of us were members of health boards. Senator Donie Cassidy: We must invite the When the Hollywood report was published, if Minister back to the Seanad to inform us of the the truth were told we all, regardless of whether up-to-date position. We want to know what she we are members of Fine Gael, the Labour Party is doing about those who will not let her know or Fianna Fa´il, battled as hard as we could to what she is entitled to know as the person who have specialised services located in our own has been given responsibility by the Taoiseach areas. Perhaps with the benefit of hindsight that and the taxpayer for the management of \14 was not the right thing to do. The recommend- billion per annum. ation of the Hollywood report for specialist services to be located in one catchment location Senator Jerry Buttimer: Good. in each area may have been correct, but given the nature of politics and human beings, we battled Senator Donie Cassidy: These people who have with each other for those services to be located put themselves in this position in the HSE must in our own towns. Therefore, we as politicians be answerable and the patient must come first. have had a responsibility in this regard for a long The special meeting of those involved in the time under the former health board system. Let midlands was a pitiful sight. I compliment the us be factual, honest and put the issues on the Minister and the consultants who went to Port- table. laoise last Saturday—— We are one of the first group of individuals who down through the years have admitted when Senator Geraldine Feeney: Hear, hear. we got something wrong or something right. No one is infallible in such circumstances. However, Senator Frances Fitzgerald: Hear, hear. when people’s lives are at stake let us put up our hands and say that whatever must be done should Senator Nicky McFadden: It should have been be done to improve matters. done in the first place. Senator Maurice Cummins: The person respon- Senator Donie Cassidy: ——to give peace of sible should also put up his or her hands. mind to those 97 unfortunate women who had to be called back. Everyone in the country was An Cathaoirleach: Allow the Leader to con- gripped with concern for their well-being, as well tinue without interruption. as for the other nine women. We in this House want to do the right thing. Senator Donie Cassidy: Senator Cummins’s I saw the Minister, Deputy Harney — she and party was in power also. I are close personal friends — from time to time On that issue, there is not a local authority in correctly brief the then Opposition spokesperson a county in Ireland in which Fianna Fa´il is in in the Da´il, Senator Liam Twomey, another good power at present. friend of mine, and give him as much information as she had to hand. Senator Twomey, a medical Senator Pearse Doherty: It is in power in doctor of eminence, has much to contribute in County Donegal. this regard because there are culprits in his pro- Senator Donie Cassidy: I have heard that the fession. If they were culprits in my former pro- unfortunate accident—— fession, we would not be too long about taking action. There is no point in hiding from this. If Senator Pearse Doherty: Fianna Fa´il has a people have the required ability, they should be majority in Donegal County Council. in these positions, but if they do not, they should not be given such positions. Senator Donie Cassidy: That is true. I take the Senator Twomey’s point about Dr. Ann O’Doherty. He clarified her position on the Senator Jerry Buttimer: It also has a majority interview board, which was important infor- in Cork City Council. mation for Members of this House. She is an emi- nent person in her own right. I have read and An Cathaoirleach: The Leader without heard comments in various branches of the media interruption. on her involvement in this issue. I will endeavour to invite the Minister, Deputy Senator Donie Cassidy: The 40 or 41 councils Harney, to the House at the earliest possible time that are under the control of most of Opposition and to make time available to have another very parties—— meaningful contribution from her. On the last occasion here, she engaged in a question and Senator Paul Coghlan: There are not that answer session and Senators were responsible in many counties. their contributions. As Senator Harris said, there is no gain for anybody toing and froing on this Senator Donie Cassidy: ——should, over the issue and throwing allegations across the floor of coming three or four weeks, make a special allo- 1739 Order of 28 November 2007. Business (Resumed) 1740

[Senator Donie Cassidy.] I look forward to his visit to the House. We will cation for road safety in their Estimates. The try to have the debate as early as possible. Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Busi- Senators Norris and Hannigan called for a ness, of which I was a member, the Joint Commit- debate on Seanad reform. Senator Norris tee on Transport, which was chaired by Senator referred to his elitist panel. We can discuss this in Ellis, and the Road Safety Authority have done the House along with all the other panels. considerable work in this regard. We have come a long way in that 100 people are alive today who Senator David Norris: There was no reference would not be alive had we not implemented the to elitism. I ask the Leader to withdraw that proposals made over the past 18 months. Two remark. thousand or 3,000 people would be in serious accidents or maimed for life. An Cathaoirleach: I did not hear any reference The unfortunate tragedy that took place two to it. days ago only 15 miles from my home, in which two young lives were lost, is most regrettable. I Senator Donie Cassidy: I apologise to the express my sympathy to the two families Senator but I understood someone mentioned an involved. The National Roads Authority must elitist panel. Perhaps I read it in the newspaper ensure that reasonable distances are maintained today. where major route changes are made. I refer to the need to have at least a quarter of a mile of Senator David Norris: Perhaps the Leader did roadway fully visible. or perhaps it was a figment of his fertile imagin- Senators O’Toole and Alex White expressed ation. He should withdraw his remark. the need to address the issue of risk management in hospitals. Senators can debate this when the Senator Donie Cassidy: I have no difficulty in Minister is present. having a discussion on all panels but, as I stated Senators O’Toole, Coghlan, Keaveney and previously, we are coming under serious pressure Doherty called for a debate on planning regu- because there was a 34% turnout of voters in lations in areas where holiday homes are pur- respect of the University Panel. This must be chased in vast numbers. Their request to invite addressed. the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Senator David Norris: Having 50,000 votes is a Local Government to the House is valid. bit better than having less than 1,000. Senator Alex White asked that the Minister for Finance be invited to the House to discuss public Senator Donie Cassidy: It will be one of the services. I will have no problem allocating time issues under discussion. Senator Norris stated on for this debate but it will not take place until early the first sitting day that he and Senator Ross got in the new year because of the budgetary con- approximately 4,500 votes between them. I was straints on the Minister. eliminated with 7,555 votes, which is nearly Senator Keaveney called for a debate on ani- double what the Senators got. They got two seats mal welfare. We are endeavouring to have this and I did not even get one. debate take place and have been in contact with the Minister’s office. When I hear further news, I Senator David Norris: On a point of fact, the will relay it to the House. Leader is wrong again. He cannot do arithmetic Senator Coghlan questioned the position and should go back to school. regarding the coast guard stations at Valentia and Malin. It is proposed by the relevant Minister that An Cathaoirleach: The Senators should there will be two centres. I understand the diffi- address the Order of Business. culties in Valentia and Malin concern broadband, the continuity of electricity supply and other Senator Donie Cassidy: When it comes to sim- matters. One station is to be in the east, in the ple arithmetic, I believe I first in the class in the Drogheda area, and the other location is to be Seanad. agreed with the Minister. Since Senators asked me about the stations, I have been assured that Senator David Norris: It is a pretty funny class no jobs will be lost. If Senator Coghlan wishes to that the Senator was in. discuss this during Private Members’ time, he can table an appropriate motion. Perhaps he can pur- An Cathaoirleach: The Leader without sue the matter on the Adjournment tomorrow interruption. evening. Senators de Bu´ rca and Kelly called for a debate Senator David Norris: He is provoking on the portfolio of the Minister for Arts, Sport interruption. and Tourism, Deputy Brennan. This is very timely at the start of the term of the new Seanad, Senator Donie Cassidy: The debate on Seanad bearing in mind the five-year or seven-year plan reform will take place in the House from 5 p.m. for the Department. The Minister has been very until 7 p.m. this evening. I regret it is only a two- effective in every portfolio he has had so far and hour debate because it could last for an entire 1741 Order of 28 November 2007. Business (Resumed) 1742 day. I ask that the Clerk present the 25 Members no difficulty in setting aside time for such a of the 23rd Seanad who were not Members of the debate. Da´il or Seanad heretofore, and the ten Members Senator Pearse Doherty raised the issue of who had been Members of the Da´il—35inall transport to, and matters in, the west. Perhaps we — with the last two reports on Seanad reform so can have a debate on the Border, midlands and they can read them over the coming two or three west region, which would very welcome. The weeks, or over Christmas. Bearing in mind that BMW region covers nearly all the Connacht- there is some urgent legislation to come before Ulster constituency and Longford-Westmeath, the House in addition to the budget debate, which has now been included for the European which will be followed by the Christmas recess, Parliament elections. I cannot let the occasion perhaps we can have a full-day debate on Seanad pass without saying that never has as much reform in the first or second week of February. money been spent on infrastructure in the west There are many good ideas on Seanad reform. as is being spent at present. As one who played a central role in the process, in addition to the present Cathaoirleach, who was Senator Pearse Doherty: There is massive a Whip, I note that 30% of all legislation is underspending. initiated in this House. This is an excellent means of assisting the Government and it results in Senator Donie Cassidy: The facts speak for much better scrutiny of legislation. The Seanad themselves. Young Senators coming into the has always been referred to as the Upper House. House with very good reputations should not get Ministers look forward to coming to this caught up in the political rhetoric of councillors Chamber because they know that on most or Members of the Da´il. We come to this House occasions, legislation can be scrutinised here to discuss facts. There will be a major expansion according to its merits in a non-partisan way. of the rail network to the west, although that may not occur in Derry, Donegal or in counties to Senator David Norris: Why is there no legis- which we would like to see it extended. Let the lation at all this entire week? prosperity continue and let us see how we can enhance and improve matters. The general elec- tion is over for five years, so let us deal with the Senator Donie Cassidy: I refer to all panels in facts. this House and not just to the one whose rep- resentatives seem to be the most vocal. That is Senator Pearse Doherty: Our job is to rep- the nature of their panel but ultimately we are all resent the people. Members in our own right and all have individual and collective responsibility. Senator Donie Cassidy: Senator Ivor Callely Senators Ellis and Feeney called for the Mini- asked about the up-to-date position on the phar- ster for the Environment, Heritage and Local macy dispute. As Senators know, many public Government to come to the House to discuss the representatives from the Taoiseach down were decisions of the Constituency Commission and very involved in this matter last week because we the difficult position of the electorate in Leitrim were all concerned. Meetings took place over two and in many constituencies, including my own. or three days with Ministers and opposition Senator Ellis and I would not be Members of leaders and the Taoiseach met the pharmacy ´ Seanad Eireann were it not for a commission that organisation at the weekend. disenfranchised the people who wanted to come I have a letter from Mr. Pat O’Dowd, who is out in their hundreds to re-elect us to Da´il well known to us from the HSE in the midland ´ Eireann. Had Senator Ellis and I not been region, in which he states that in view of the con- appointed to the Seanad, it is quite possible that siderable progress in this regard, the HSE has they would not be as well represented as they are decided to defer to a later date implementation at present. Having taken this into account, one of the new reimbursement rates planned to take must conclude that no county should be left with- effect for community pharmacists on 1 December out a Member in Da´il E´ ireann. That is what this 2007. He went on to state that the HSE would proposal is about and I will have no difficulty keep community pharmacists informed of its inviting the Minister to the House to discuss it. intention regarding the implementation of the Senators Hannigan and Doherty referred to new arrangements and that individual community the Irish community in the United Kingdom. The pharmacists had been informed by letter. The British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body met at the requests genuinely made by Members of both weekend and discussed Irish emigrants. People Houses and acted on by the Minister and the who went to work in these destinations have Taoiseach have been listened to. grown old and have little support. During his 20 I read a suggestion in a newspaper that the year membership of the Seanad, Paschal Mooney pharmacy people would appoint an independent was a champion of the emigrant and I acknowl- arbitrator, which is unacceptable. The person edge that today. I will be briefed by him from appointed must be totally independent if that is time to time in regard to what we should do. As the route we take. Many Senators would be more Leader, I am lucky to have his friendship. I have au fait than I with this. 1743 Realising Equality and the 28 November 2007. Traveller Community: Statements 1744

[Senator Donie Cassidy.] to live on the margins of mainstream society. Senator Ivana Bacik raised the question of asy- Young Travellers do not, in general, enjoy any- lum seekers and their children. I will pass on her thing like the same range of life choices available view to the Minister to determine if we can have to their settled counterparts. a debate on that issue. I acknowledge that Travellers have been sub- ject to persistent discrimination and social Order of Business agreed to. exclusion for many generations. As Minister with responsibility for equality issues, I am very con- Third Programme of Law Reform: Motion. scious that pursuing equality is not simply about reacting to discrimination and prejudice. We also Senator Donie Cassidy: I move: need to give positive support to groups and com- That Seanad E´ ireann request the Joint Com- munities in our society which face particular dis- mittee on Justice, Equality, Defence and advantage. Women’s Rights, or a sub-committee thereof, In the wider equality arena, we have seen to consider including in public session, the additional supports for people with disabilities Third Programme of Law Reform prepared by through the national disability strategy incorpor- the Law Reform Commission and to report ating the Disability Act 2005. The national back to Seanad E´ ireann on or before 6th women’s strategy is a comprehensive statement December 2007. of the issues involved in the continuing pursuit of gender equality. In regard to Travellers, there also have been a number of important strategic Question put and agreed to. measures and instruments, the first of which was the report of the Task Force on the Traveller Realising Equality and the Traveller Community. After exhaustive consultation with Community: Statements. stakeholders, the task force, chaired by Mr. Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Justice Fergus Flood, produced a comprehensive Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Sea´n Power): set of actions and objectives in its 1995 report. I thank you, a Chathaoirligh, for the opportunity My Department chaired the Traveller monitoring to address the House on a theme of particular committee which reported on the implementation importance. We have a well established legislat- of the task force report. By the time the monitor- ive and administrative infrastructure to support ing committee gave its second progress report in equality principles. The provisions of the December 2005, many of the task force recom- Employment Equality Acts and the Equal Status mendations had been implemented. These Acts, together with the work of the Equality included the enactment of equal status legislation, Authority and the Equality Tribunal, have given which gives explicit protection against discrimi- us a very firm foundation which is recognised nation to Travellers. In addition to an overarch- internationally. The legislation provides protec- ing monitoring committee, there also have been tion as well as a forum for redress against dis- separate consultative structures supporting policy crimination. Discrimination is recognised under development in respect of Traveller health, edu- nine grounds, namely, gender, marital status, cation and accommodation. Following on the last family status, sexual orientation, religion, age, national partnership agreement, Towards 2016, a disability, race and membership of the Traveller new national advisory body was created based on community. a renewed commitment from the social partners I wish to concentrate on the position of the to give “concentrated attention” to pursuing pro- Traveller community and to outline some of the gress for Travellers. In line with best international important issues which must be addressed in a practice, the new national Traveller monitoring practical and meaningful way to underpin and advisory committee operates independently equality for Travellers. We live in a time of rapid of Departments. This committee was inaugurated social change and we see a greatly increased by the Taoiseach earlier this year under the diversity of peoples who have their origin in other Chairmanship of Mr. Kevin Bonner, the former countries. In trying to adapt to these circum- Secretary General of the Department of stances, there is a danger we may overlook a com- Enterprise, Trade and Employment. The commit- munity which has deep historic roots in Irish tee includes a broader representation of Travel- society. lers than the old monitoring committee which it We all recognise many of the problems which replaces. In addition to the principal national occur around issues such as the provision of halt- Traveller organisations, there are a number of ing sites. We are all aware of conflicts between other prominent Traveller representatives. A Travellers and settled people. For some people, quarter of the committee’s membership is com- their awareness of Travellers is derived almost posed of Traveller representatives. Already, it is entirely from such situations. Reporting in the playing an important role in distilling the views media also highlights negative images. It is not and advice of stakeholders. surprising, therefore, that attitudes characterised The Government commits very significant fin- by suspicion and fear persist both among Travel- ancial resources to Traveller-specific prog- ler and settled peoples. Many Travellers continue rammes. In recent years this has been running at 1745 Realising Equality and the 28 November 2007. Traveller Community: Statements 1746 well over \100 million per annum. About half of The Traveller community has had to deal with this goes on Traveller accommodation and much significant disadvantage and discrimination over of the remainder is spent in the education sector. many generations. Like everyone else, Travellers Despite sustained funding over many years and have had to cope with the very rapid social and the work of the various consultative bodies to economic changes that have occurred in Ireland which I have referred, the rate of progress has in recent years. While these changes have brought been somewhat disappointing. There has been an many benefits, the pace of change has created its obvious need for greater progress and more effec- own difficulties. Many traditional occupations tive delivery of services and supports by State have died out, both for Travellers and settled agencies. Responding to this, a high level group people. There has been increasing pressure on on Traveller issues was established at the request older family and community structures. Young of the Taoiseach. people, in particular, are subject to a range of The high level group is composed of senior influences which older generations did not officials from Departments and other State agen- experience. Unfortunately, the modern scourges cies. It should not be regarded as a replacement of drug use and youth suicide affect Travellers as or a duplication of the work of other committees. much as the settled community. It is working in a very focused way to improve While Ireland has gone through an economic the performance of State agencies in delivering boom, it is fair to say that the full benefits of this their services for Irish Travellers. The work of the have not been felt by many in the Traveller com- high level group is supported by a very firm com- munity. It is often said that a rising tide lifts all mitment from the Taoiseach and the Government boats but we sometimes forget that not everyone to drive forward the delivery of more effective has a boat. People with limited access to employ- services. The core objective proposed by the high ment generally experience corresponding limits level group is to ensure effective inter-agency co- on the range of life choices which are open to operation using the structures of the city and them. It is worth noting that the idea of support- county development boards. This arrangement is ive positive action is included in the original employment equality legislation of 1998 in closely allied to meaningful consultation with respect of Travellers, people with disabilities and Travellers and their representatives at local level. those over 50 years of age. The concept was In March of last year, the Government endorsed extended in the Equality Act of 2004 to the approach proposed by the high level group. encompass all of the nine grounds laid down in This has led to each city and county development the legislation. In practical terms, promoting board establishing a Traveller inter-agency group equality implies that we must be ready to support to implement the Government-approved strategy. an environment where everyone has a fair chance My Department and the high level group are to make the most of their abilities. While I am keeping a close eye on developments. I am con- here, I will take the opportunity to mention that scious that in some areas, there is much more tan- a serious effort is being made in some areas to gible progress than in others. We are working rectify a wrong that exists and has existed in this with specialist bodies like Pobal who have vast country for a long time. The best example I have experience in local and community development. seen in the few months in which I have been in We are also using the expertise of the Institute of the job is the very hands-on approach taken by Public Administration to help highlight the most the county manager of South Dublin County effective approaches to management and admin- Council, Joe Horan, who has provided wonderful istrative processes. opportunities for Travellers, as well as the respect The work of the Traveller inter-agency groups they have for him and the co-operation and inter- incorporates the full range of public services, action that takes place on a regular basis. It is a including law enforcement. Sometimes this is great example to other local authorities in respect viewed as a separate issue. However, it is clear to of what can be done. I would like to see some of me that effective law enforcement and building the work and success enjoyed by South Dublin positive community relations require full co-oper- County Council being replicated around the ation from all stakeholders. Much has been made country. If this council can be so successful, there in the media of reports of crime among Travel- is no reason similar results cannot be achieved lers. I have no problem in also applying the everywhere else in the country. equality principle to law enforcement. Therefore, In pursuing positive action, an essential link anyone who commits a crime should expect to be has to be made in the progression from education dealt with through the criminal justice system. and training to employment. Retention in edu- However, we must also remember that many of cation is a continuing issue for Traveller families those most affected by crime committed by Trav- and a minority of Traveller children progress as ellers are other Travellers. This can occur through far as the junior certificate. intimidation and obstructing access by service I had the pleasure last week of attending a play providers to particular localities. It is particularly written by a Traveller. It was almost a one-man true in the way that negative stereotypes can be show by Michael Collins who some Senators reinforced to the detriment of decent, law abid- might remember from “Glenroe”. Apart from ing Travellers. being a wonderful play, it contained a wonderful 1747 Realising Equality and the 28 November 2007. Traveller Community: Statements 1748

[Deputy Sea´n Power.] team working skills. Some have gone on to other message. He explained to people how they employment in both the public and private sec- needed to stay in education as long as possible tors. Others have opted to seek further education. in order to maximise their chances in life. It is a Within public bodies, news of this programme wonderful sketch and I hope it can be shown in and the local authority initiatives is having a rip- as many parts of Ireland as possible. When one ple effect and further employment opportunities hears a successful Traveller explaining matters to are emerging for Travellers. and advising people, it is all the more meaningful. I hope the social partners in the private sector Last week’s performance was a once-off which will be increasingly involved in future initiatives had the support of South Dublin County Council to support Travellers in the workplace. We have but we will make every effort to ensure it travels already developed some of the supports that may around the country and that other people are be needed in this regard. It is very encouraging given the opportunity to see it. that FA´ S has implemented a number of special I realise that there are many complex issues initiatives in support of Travellers over the past involved and I am encouraged that we have a two years, located in Clare, Cork, Dublin and comprehensive strategy to address these in the Galway. These initiatives involved 200 people report and recommendations for a Traveller edu- from the Traveller community and included cation strategy, which was published last year. almost 50 employment and enterprise oppor- This was the product of an intensive engagement tunities. I hope this work will produce a coherent between the education services, Traveller rep- training strategy that will have an ongoing impact resentatives and other stakeholders. The Depart- in all areas of the country. ment of Education and Science is leading the It is nice to have some good news to report and implementation of this strategy which will be of the news is not just that people, who might not vital importance. We will continue to find it diffi- have considered mainstream employment pre- cult to motivate young Travellers to remain in viously, are now in the workforce. It is also about education unless they can be convinced that it will Travellers and settled people working together lead to meaningful employment and a reasonable and developing some mutual appreciation and income. I am aware of the views expressed by understanding. Positive action on employment is Traveller representatives that discrimination in not just about economic progress. It is about entering the workplace is a continuing barrier for breaking down barriers of suspicion and fear and Travellers even though they may have the rel- moving towards inclusion and equality. evant skills and qualifications. I am also aware More initiatives will be needed to solve the that this form of discrimination can be expressed many serious problems that remain. There con- very subtly — “thanks for your application, but tinue to be problems with the delivery of accom- the job is already gone”. Unfortunately, this is the modation and the general health status of the news to which so many Travellers have had to Traveller community. The important aspect of listen for a long number of years and is something the employment initiatives is that it shows what we cannot tolerate or allow to continue. can be achieved with a collaborative approach By way of contrast, I would like to highlight from State agencies and Traveller community some of the successful employment initiatives representatives. which have taken place recently. These have been Since the 1995 report of the task force on the based on an inter-agency approach, both at local Traveller community, Ireland has become a much and national level. A number of local authorities, more diverse and faster moving society. An in particular, South Dublin County Council and essential objective must be opening Clare County Council have opened up new routes 4 o’clock up mainstream economic and social into employment and enterprise for Travellers. activities to participation by Travel- This has resulted in direct employment in the lers. This should not mean that Travellers have to local authorities and Travellers setting up their sacrifice their own distinctive culture and tra- own businesses. The HSE is also building on the ditions. I hope it will mean that Travellers, like work of its Traveller primary health care prog- others, will adapt and re-invent their way of life ramme. Recently it produced a new tool kit to to participate as equals in 21st century Ireland. promote further employment opportunities in the I referred earlier to necessary and helpful legis- health service. lation. This is important but attitudes must also A further initiative was the Traveller internship change. In modern Ireland we cannot allow what programme in the Civil Service. A few weeks ago, happened before, when Travellers were discrimi- I had the pleasure of participating with the nated against in a despicable manner. Members Taoiseach in an award ceremony for successful of these Houses have a role to play and must participants. Under this programme 23 young show leadership to change attitudes that exist and Travellers gained valuable work experience. provide equal opportunities for all. I thank Some performed clerical duties while others Senators for their attention and I look forward to engaged in general operative work with the their contributions. Office of Public Works. The participants were enabled to develop a range of abilities, including Senator Eugene Regan: I wish to share time computer skills, personal communications and with Senator Liam Twomey. 1749 Realising Equality and the 28 November 2007. Traveller Community: Statements 1750

I thank the Minister of State for providing an lems that arise when decisions are made on the overview of the matter and an outline of the location of halting sites or settled accom- structures. We agree on the objective of promot- modation. Law enforcement is another issue. ing equality for the Travellers. The report has no People in the Traveller community are victims of measurements of the position in health and edu- crimes committed by Travellers but that does not cation nor Government targets for the next five change the issue. I accept that this is a difficult years. There is greater recognition of the prin- area but we should not take a particular view in ciple of equality and its application to the Travel- respect of it simply because Travellers are ler community. There is a greater recognition of affected. The position is similar to that which the distinct cultural and social grouping the Trav- obtains with regard to crime in inner city areas, eller community constitutes. As a former namely, that it is other gangland criminals who Cathaoirleach of Du´ n Laoghaire-Rathdown are affected. I do not wish to make a comparison County Council I have seen specific programmes between the two but perhaps we do not take this such as accommodation and social inclusion prog- matter as seriously as we should. However, I rammes. There are good relations between bodies reiterate that an issue exists in respect of law that represent the Traveller community at local enforcement. authority level. The Minister of State has alluded As the Minister of State indicated, there is a to accommodation, one of the most fundamental need to build positive community relations and programmes required to assist the Traveller com- promote better understanding on both sides. Fine munity. These programmes are always conten- Gael is fully committed to furthering the principle tious but local councillors have taken responsi- of equality and the implementation of the latter bility and have approved sites for Traveller within the Traveller community. My party sup- accommodation in their local authority areas. ports many of the measures that have been put Fine Gael has stressed the need for acceler- in place. ation of local accommodation plans of local auth- I commend all those organisations that work orities and access to the justice system. Discrimi- with the Traveller community. I have interfaced nation and equality are essentially flip sides of the with some of these at local authority level and same coin. Promotion of equality is the correct they do a wonderful job in representing the Trav- approach to this issue rather than seeing it as a eller community and trying to provide the vital fight against discrimination. Positive support of link between it and the authorities engaged in education must be targeted, measured and pre- assisting it. cisely specified. We do not have up-to-date figures for the Senator Liam Twomey: We should always be health status of the Traveller community. The realistic with regard to what we say in this most recent figures show a higher rate of infant Chamber. As a politician and a doctor, I have had mortality and lower life expectancy for the Trav- a great deal of contact with the Traveller com- eller community. These should be measured and munity. If there is one thing I admire about we should be able to track changes and the effect members of this community, it is that they say of policies adopted and expenditures incurred to things as they are and are not disposed to the see if we are achieving results. The Minister of patronising “we know what is best for you” atti- State referred to access to employment and the tude displayed towards them. There was a certain local authorities are to the forefront in providing element of the latter in the Minister of State’s young Travellers with an opportunity to access contribution. He talked down to members of the employment. Traveller community and stated that all the There have been many examples of serious recommendations of the 1996 report were criminal acts by members of the Traveller com- implemented. If that is the case, why will we be munity, which reflect badly and unfairly on the obliged to concentrate our attention on resolving community. These are isolated incidents and it is problems within the Traveller community in the unfortunate if they stigmatise the whole com- coming years? munity and set back the effort of promoting The Minister of State said that the provision of equality and recognising the need to support the funding has failed to achieve the required out- community. Despite the difficulties and problems comes. Basically, he admitted that the Govern- there is greater public appreciation at local and ment has failed utterly to achieve any of its objec- national level of the need to assist the community tives in the context of catering for the needs of in promoting equality in the health, education the Traveller community. That is the way and employment. members of the Traveller community like to hear With rights come responsibilities, which applies about matters. to the settled community as much as the Traveller community. The Traveller community needs to Deputy Sea´n Power: They are as constructive have a greater appreciation of its obligations to as ever. society, whether in upholding the standard of accommodation provided or having a greater Senator Liam Twomey: They like to be told it appreciation of the rights of neighbours. There straight and do not like the nonsense of people must be appreciation on both sides of the prob- talking down to them. 1751 Realising Equality and the 28 November 2007. Traveller Community: Statements 1752

[Senator Liam Twomey.] Traveller community, we should speak to them in There is a major problem with regard to health realistic terms and not patronise them. We should issues in the Traveller community. highlight what is succeeding and what is being done right. However, we should be honest when Deputy Sea´n Power: If the Senator is going to things are not working out. We must also not be quote what I said, will he do it in an honest afraid to indicate when we witness behaviour manner? which is not becoming of a civilised society. I must be critical of the Minister of State in An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator Twomey, respect of another point, namely, when he said without interruption. “This should not mean that Travellers have to sacrifice their own distinctive culture and tra- Senator Liam Twomey: If the Minister of State ditions.” On each occasion on which a society is wants me to be constructive, I will oblige him. I radically changed — our society has undergone notice he has got into the habit of checking his such change in the past 20 years — there will be text messages during the contributions of Oppo- changes to its culture and traditions. The position sition Members. I will try to prevent him from is the same for the Traveller community. Travel- doing so by speaking up somewhat. lers acknowledge that there will be changes to It is estimated that the level of diabetes among their culture. The Minister of State should not Travellers is double that which obtains in the insult them by making comments such as that to settled community. There are also major prob- which I refer. He should state that there will be lems with regard to alcohol consumption and changes and that we can all learn to deal with infant mortality within the Traveller community. them as they happen. The measures that work best are those which afford Travellers respect. For example, the HSE Senator Denis O’Donovan: I welcome the runs a programme in New Ross on which young Minister of State and thank him for his enlight- Traveller women are taught about basic ened contribution. When I was a boy, Travellers parenting issues, such as how to look after chil- used to frequent rural areas. They were welcome dren, how to check their temperatures, how to in people’s houses, were usually given dinner and recognise when their are ill, etc. These young on many occasions were provided with accom- women are taught by other Travellers, not modation, perhaps in a shed or barn. There was officials of the HSE, doctors or nurses. Travellers mutual respect between the two communities. are of the view that this is an excellent A significant amount has been done in recent programme. years. In my opinion, this is a two-way prog- Travellers want accommodation and access to ramme. The Government, other agencies and the health care. We could work hard towards achiev- equality and equal status legislation can only do ing what they desire in respect of these issues. Some of the organisations representing Travel- so much. There must be a fair interaction on lers, especially those at national level, are inclined both sides. to be of the view that they are above the real Accommodation is one of the major issues fac- issues relating to the Travelling community. The ing Travellers. Even though people will argue Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform that the difficulties are more acute in certain outlined that clearly when he criticised an organ- areas, I am pleasantly surprised by the progress isation regarding the way it conducted itself in that has been made in that regard in recent years. respect of the Roma gypsies on the M50. The It should be acknowledged that there was a sig- majority of Traveller organisations, especially nificant increase — in the region of 7% or 8% — those at local level, are working for the interests in the number of Traveller families between 2000 of members of the community they represent. and 2005 and that, year on year, the position The Minister of State should work with them and relating to Traveller accommodation has he might arrive back here in ten years’ time with improved. The Minister of State, his departmen- a programme that achieved some success. He tal officials and local authorities were responsible must admit — I ask him not to insult my intelli- for the latter. gence in this regard — that the programme relat- I do not wish to be parochial but I am aware ing to the previous report has not worked well, of a Traveller family in my county which, on six despite the amount of money spent in respect of occasions, was offered accommodation of various it. types — from a five-bedroom house to a signifi- The Minister of State must also be realistic with cant parcel of land — to try to encourage it to regard to the current position. He referred to the abandon the unauthorised site it was occupying. Equal Status Act. To some degree, the latter The family in question, for whatever reason, occasionally drives a wedge between the settled refused all offers of accommodation. I tried to and Traveller communities. Certain individuals persuade its members that they should take up chose to abuse the provisions of the Act in an the offer. The local authority, councillors and var- attempt to get away with engaging in criminal ious agencies also did their utmost to try to inter- activity and anti-social behaviour. If we are going cede and help but unfortunately our efforts came to protect the decent, honest members of the to naught. 1753 Realising Equality and the 28 November 2007. Traveller Community: Statements 1754

It would be remiss of the Seanad to fail to see progress made in this area. A pilot scheme recognise a number of areas in respect of which could be commenced to get children aged seven, progress has been made. Departmental statistics eight, nine or ten more involved in sport in their from November 2006 indicate that approximately communities. International football and large 40% of Travellers were occupying standard hous- clubs such as Manchester United, Arsenal or Liv- ing, including voluntary housing, in the region of erpool show us that it does not matter what coun- 12% were in private rented accommodation and try one is from or what is one’s creed or belief as between 8% to 8.5% were in group housing one will become a hero to young people if one is schemes. It is regrettable that a significant good at one’s sport. number — the figure then stood at 629 — As someone with experience and who had a remained on unauthorised sites. family member involved in teaching the Travel- Over the years large numbers of Travellers ling community in Dublin for many years, I have used their own resources to provide themselves a word of warning with regard to accommodation. with accommodation. They should be encouraged I would hate to see a ghettoisation with a large in this regard. It is obligatory for every local auth- concentration of halting sites, caravans or several ority to provide properly serviced halting sites. It Traveller families in one housing estate. That is a is not that long ago when my constituency of recipe for disaster. It is also a warning for dealing Cork South-West had no authorised halting site. with discrimination of another type with regard to It now has three or four and I welcome this sup- the influx of refugees and asylum seekers, where port which allows people to have basic facilities people are inclined to be ghettoised. It is such as sewerage, water and electricity on this important that Traveller accommodation is dealt sites. Local authorities and other housing groups with fairly. It should not mean Travellers are all make significant attempts to accommodate Trav- lumped into the one estate because they are Trav- ellers who wish to be housed and give them a slot ellers. This can create problems. in the community. If I am honest, my experience as a local auth- The previous speaker, who is a medical doctor, ority member of dealing with the Traveller com- has experience from a medical perspective and I munity is mixed. As a previous speaker men- will not state he is wrong or right. I presume the tioned, modern society’s obligations towards the Senator gave us the facts as he sees them. I would Traveller community and responsibilities under like to see progress, whether through education legislation not to discriminate must be met by or encouragement at local level, in getting young responsibilities of the Traveller community male and female Travellers involved in sports towards the settled community and greater inter- such as soccer, football or rugby, which people action by the Traveller community with the state is elitist but I do not mind. The problem is settled community. not as acute in a rural area such as west Cork as It is a misconception that the settled com- it would be in the outreaches of Dublin or other munity has a “hands-up, hands-off” approach to such areas. Cork, and west Cork in particular, has the Traveller community. This is not the case a minority sport which is often forgotten, namely, from my experience, coming from a humble back- road bowling. It is covered by Bol Chumann na ´ ground. The relationship between education and hEireann which is affiliated to Cumann Lu´ thch- the Traveller community works both ways. One leas Gael. can go so far to assist and I am in favour of ensur- I was involved in seeking funding for a pilot ing they receive fair play, do not experience dis- scheme which is being established in Dunmanway crimination, obtain better education and housing whereby an indoor road bowling alley of 50 m in and become involved in sport. However, one length will be opened. When one shoots the bowl must also urge caution that we must have better it will return through a spring mechanism. Tra- engagement and rapport and a better sense of ditionally, Travellers have been involved in this responsibility and fairness from the Traveller sport. Road bowling is popular in Armagh, west Cork and Mayo and I believe an all-Ireland was community to the settled community. This would held last year or the year before in Wexford. I be a great achievement. accept it is a minority sport. Children must be attracted to sports such as Senator David Norris: I wish to share my time road bowling, Gaelic football or other games at a with Senator Joe O’Toole. young age. Having children who grew up in my home town with Traveller children at infant level An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is that agreed? and through national school and secondary Agreed. school, I have no doubt many of them are treated well by schools and the education system. It is a Senator David Norris: I welcome the Minister pity young Travellers have such a large drop-out of State to the House and the positive statements rate at junior certificate level. he made. However, a great deal must be done. It is also pity more engagement does not occur The Government’s slogan is “A lot done, more when sport has a camaraderie. Those who partici- to do”. pate in road bowling are well treated, well cat- ered for and looked after with no discrimination Senator Alex White: It was the slogan of the by Bol Chumann na hE´ ireann. Travellers have previous Government. won county championships and they have also contested in international events. I would like to Senator David Norris: Well, what about it. 1755 Realising Equality and the 28 November 2007. Traveller Community: Statements 1756

[Senator David Norris.] ual or group on the basis of their race, religion, Quite a lot more must be done with regard to nationality, colour, ethnic origin, gender, sexual Travellers. We have a lack of sufficient data, orientation, marital status, disability, illness or particularly health data, and what we have is age.” Why is the Traveller community left out if extremely worrying. Mortality rates and life the Government does not accept it is covered expectancy among the Traveller community are under “ethnic origin”? If it has not accepted the dismal when compared to the control figures for Traveller community as a minority ethnicity, it the general population. The employment rate for must be included separately. Travellers between 25 and 44 years of age is 16% I speak with a degree of authority on this compared to 79% for the settled community. because I pioneered the sexual orientation That is an enormous disparity. clauses in Irish legislation and, from the begin- Travellers feel particularly strongly about the ning, I coupled them with membership of the Government’s obdurate refusal to regard them as Traveller community. Every time legislation was a group having its own ethnic identity and the gender or human rights proofed, sexual orien- refusal to recognise Travellers as a minority eth- tation and membership of the Traveller com- nic group. This is probably because it would put munity were included. Why then have Travellers teeth into the fine sentiments of the Government been excluded given that the matter in question and give a legal point to them. This was recom- seems to place them at a great disadvantage? mended by the Irish Human Rights Commission, The rights of Travellers under international the National Consultative Committee on Racism agreements, such as the International Covenant and Interculturalism, the Equality Authority and on Civil and Political Rights and the European all Traveller organisations. It would be a demo- Convention on Human Rights, which was cratic exercise for the Government to take this recently incorporated into law, exist on paper but on board and at last recognise Travellers as an do not mean much in practice. They may, for ethnic group. example, have the right to vote under Article 25 We could spend the evening debating whether of the covenant but they do not have the right in Travellers are an ethnic group. They have certain practice because of the attitudes of local auth- linguistic characteristics, an historical and cultural orities. They are denied accommodation or given background and a different way of life. To some inappropriate housing and they are not registered extent, the Government already acknowledges by the very local authority which in some the distinctive culture of Travellers and assisted in establishing Pavee Point. It also acknowledges instances is at war with them. According to a that Travellers are a separate social grouping. document with which I have been supplied: This means Travellers being a separate cultural This dynamic is compounded when the and social grouping is acknowledged by the agency that has failed to deal with your accom- Government. The next logical step would be to modation issues either appropriately or effec- acknowledge them as a minority ethnic group. tively is also the agency with responsibility for That would also help in terms of translating the electoral register. For example, in order for stated policy into practice. Many observers Travellers living on the roadside or in unofficial believe it is invariably the Travellers who are accommodation to register to vote the Local expected to change rather than requiring society Authority must acknowledge that they are resi- to accommodate a group which is already recog- dent in the area. nised as different. A number of requests have been made which I have raised the practical issues I would like the are worthy of consideration. The establishment of Minister to address, namely, the Press Council, an ombudsman for Travellers has been sought. an ombudsman, the right to vote and imple- We already have ombudsmen for this, that and menting in reality those rights that appear to be the other and it could help to resolve the some- conferred by the incorporation of the European times awkward relations that exist between the Convention on Human Rights and the Inter- settled and Traveller communities, the fault for national Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. which can fall on either side. I recall when playing fields were invaded and people were blackmailed Senator Joe O’Toole: I thank Senator Norris by members of the Traveller community who for sharing his time with me. I have been involved asked for payment to leave. An ombudsman in this issue for many years. One of my assentors would be a useful institution in that regard. for my very first election campaign was Nan I have a number of problems with the disgrace- Joyce, a spokesperson at the time for the Travel- ful way the Defamation Bill is scuttling through ler movement. There is a need to ensure we take the House on Committee Stage, thereby disbar- the proper approach on the Traveller issue. I list- ring 35 out of 60 Senators from speaking at all on ened carefully to the Minister of State’s speech Second Stage. A draft code of conduct developed but did not think it as patronising as others by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law appear to have found it. It touched on issues Reform states: “Newspapers and periodicals shall which I consider important and the only aspect not publish material intended or likely to cause which I could possibly find patronising was the grave offence or stir up hatred against an individ- comment about television programmes. The criti- 1757 Realising Equality and the 28 November 2007. Traveller Community: Statements 1758 cism that not enough has been done is great to see them argue on radio and television important, however. in the way that people spoke for them 30 years We must investigate the issue of suicide within ago. However, a debate is needed, which means the Traveller community because suicide rates that the Minister of State will raise points with among Travellers are now four times higher than which they will disagree and all sides will have to the rest of the population. I would like to set tar- change their positions. gets in areas such as infant mortality, suicide and We need to address issues such as suicide, alcoholism, all of which have high rates within the alcoholism, education, housing and halting sites, Traveller community. and targets should be set in respect of each. The Difficulties have arisen with various local auth- original plan for local authority housing and sup- orities but it should be acknowledged that Fine port for the Traveller community has not been Gael has been quicker than any other party to implemented throughout the country. Some auth- recognise the importance of this issue. On a orities, such as South Dublin County Council, are number of occasions over the past three years, its superb but others are not. Every time they do leader has hauled in errant councillors who went something, they are criticised by people in the beyond the bounds of acceptable language when settled community. dealing with Travellers. Senator Dan Boyle: I wish to share my time Senator David Norris: Hear, hear. with Senator Walsh.

Senator Joe O’Toole: Incidents arose in An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is that agreed? Galway some years ago, and Tipperary and Agreed. Wexford in more recent times, whereby unacceptable comments were made about Senator Dan Boyle: I was first elected to a local Travellers. authority in 1991, the first year of former Pres- The idea of an ombudsman to deal with issues ident Mary Robinson’s term of office. The plat- pertaining to the Traveller community is useful form on which President Robinson was elected and sensible. However, having been a supporter included a promise to instigate sponsorship of an of Travellers’ rights for as long as I can recall and architect’s scheme for accommodation for the having fought to ensure they received education travelling community. This marked one of the and proper facilities in schools, I continue to dis- first occasions I was exposed, as an elected rep- agree on the issue of culture, subculture and eth- resentative, to the issue of housing Travellers. nicity. We should debate that important issue but While the scheme proved successful, unfortu- the Minister of State did not refer to it in his con- nately the targets set out at the time in Govern- tribution. My point of view, that there is an Irish ment policy were not reached either then or sub- culture with a variety of subcultures, is not popu- sequently. Despite the efforts of successive lar. People from Kerry or GAA activists thus Governments, we have failed to meet targets on belong to subcultures of the Irish culture. When accommodation. I remember Deputy Liz I make this argument to members of the Traveller McManus, in her role as Minister of State at the community, they disagree with me, which they Department of the Environment, introducing are entitled to do. However, it is like apartheid another accommodation scheme for Travellers to say they belong to a different culture to Irish which, unfortunately, did not attain the desired culture. I do not mean to be demeaning when I objectives. say they are a subculture of the Irish culture but When speaking about the role of the travelling to point out that other matters are thereby community in society we must acknowledge it has brought into consideration. fewer basic services available to it than other Traveller groups often argue they are too often sections of the community. For example, Travel- forced to change to accommodate others. I agree lers face problems in the areas of housing, life with the generality of that argument but not with expectancy and educational attainment but the subtext that Travellers do not have to change society fails to recognise these problems because at all. Everybody must change. I have argued with of prejudice and ignorance. I note the Order of Traveller groups about the example of a mother Business featured a pre-emptive discussion about who wanted to be settled in a house rather than the role of local authority members as electors to on the road. That debate needs to take place the House and the importance of ensuring we do within the Traveller community. I accept the not upset them. Sometimes the House has a duty argument that the State should be supportive, to speak out when local authority members step within reason, where Travellers choose a nomadic out of line and express sentiments based purely lifestyle but we are afraid to address these issues. on ignorance and prejudice. Senators do not fulfil I do not want educational standards for Traveller this duty often enough. children to drop, but if they move too much they In acknowledging the increase in the resources will miss out on education and thereby encounter made available to address problems in the travel- significant difficulties as they grow older. ling community and improvements in the quality The current spokespersons for the Traveller of Traveller housing, we must also accept that a community are extraordinarily articulate. It is considerable amount of work remains. While I 1759 Realising Equality and the 28 November 2007. Traveller Community: Statements 1760

[Senator Dan Boyle.] is accepted that people in the higher socio- am loth to admit it, the ignorance and prejudice economic bracket tend to look after their health surrounding this issue necessitate a bipartisan and, as a consequence, have longer life expect- approach of the kind referred to by Senator ancy and enjoy better health. Harris on the Order of Business. To do otherwise There is also an educational element to this would invite those with small minds and narrow debate. I welcome the prioritisation of pre- visions to dominate a debate on an issue for schools in the Traveller community. Frequently, which we, as a society, have collective responsi- parents in the travelling community do not have bility. While having statements in the House in a an education and consequently do not pass on to proper context could help in this regard, ulti- their children the important message that edu- mately it is a matter of having the collective will cation is a priority. Pre-schooling is an important and necessary resources to meet the targets we consideration in this regard. Senator Twomey have failed to attain thus far. If we have any con- mentioned a scheme in place in New Ross. The science, as members of an elected assembly, we VECs have undertaken some tremendous initiat- would not allow these problems to persist. ives in this area, doing great work for children and in the area of adult education and literacy. Senator Jim Walsh: I thank Senator Boyle for I applaud employment initiatives for Travel- sharing time. lers, particularly the Civil Service internship prog- Undoubtedly, the travelling community is ramme for Travellers which has given members afflicted by serious issues. Senators all have their of the travelling community work experience in own experience of the issue of Travellers, partic- the Civil Service. As a result, they become more ularly at local government level. I recall that as a attractive and employable for employers in the young councillor in the mid-1970s I and others private sector. More work should be done in championed the cause of a few travelling families that area. in our area. As a result, three Traveller families I fully subscribe to Senator O’Donovan’s argu- were housed in one housing allocation. One was ment on the issue of involving Travellers in sport an elderly couple who moved into a house and as a means of offering a way to integrate in were probably not given the support they needed society. It also offers networking opportunities to manage, having previously lived in poor con- which open up avenues to education, employ- ditions in a caravan. Nonetheless, the move ment and other areas that may not be available resulted in a sea change in their quality of life. to Travellers. The second family were not given support either I will spend some time discussing the issue of and proceeded systematically to dismantle a large crime. part of the house for firewood. This was a reflec- tion on the manner in which we managed some An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Senator’s time of these issues, albeit a long time ago. Some of has concluded. those who speak eloquently about rights and so forth are not as active in offering support when it Senator Jim Walsh: A number of Senators becomes necessary to provide additional services noted the responsibility of society to the travel- which are essential to the well-being of families. ling community. The corollary of this is that the Shortly after moving into the house the third travelling community has a responsibility to family accommodated in the scheme bought up a society. This responsibility is not always exercised large number of other properties in the area. This by members of the travelling community and conditioned me to ask whether families being some of those who represent it. housed had the necessary resources to provide their own accommodation. This is an ongoing Senator Alex White: I welcome the Minister of issue because the travelling community, like the State’s statement to which I and other Senators settled community, includes very wealthy people listened carefully. He did not, as Senator Twomey and people who require support. It is not always claimed, state that all the task force recom- easy to determine the group to which a person or mendations from 1995 had been implemented. family belongs. On the contrary, he indicated that many of them I was pleasantly surprised to learn that only had been implemented. I would argue, however, 22% of the 7,691 Traveller families in the State that only some of the recommendations have do not live in houses. This is a significant achieve- been implemented. ment as it is fair to assume that a significant pro- The Minister of State was also fair in acknowl- portion of those living in caravans on halting edging that the rate of progress has been “some- sites, both authorised and otherwise, refuse offers what disappointing”. His judgment on this issue, of housing because they want to maintain their with which we can only but agree, should be the nomadic way of life. Every effort should be made starting and end point of our short debate. While and pressure should be applied to change this way more resources have been dedicated to areas such of life because in many cases it is not good for as Traveller accommodation, a massive amount the health of children. Many health problems can of work remains to be done. be ascribed to poor accommodation and a lack of This is an unusual discussion because, not for education. Even within the settled community it the first time, Senators have noted the need for a 1761 Realising Equality and the 28 November 2007. Traveller Community: Statements 1762 bipartisan, cross-party approach to this issue. We nation and take such measures as are necessary, hear similar remarks on practically every issue prudent and correct to address and stand up to it. virtually every day. If some people have their way A Senator on the Government side of the we will, at some point, push all the chairs in the House made a point about councillors and public Chamber together but it would still leave representatives making unacceptable statements. Government and Opposition sides. I agree with what he said, but there are others in public positions who do the same, including Senator Jerry Buttimer: There would still be sometimes, members of the District Court bench. trouble. Some of these have made statements that are grossly unacceptable and they should be criticised Senator Alex White: I disagree with the in the House by the Minister. It is not acceptable emphasis of some colleagues on the other side, for any public official, judge or otherwise, to although I endorse everything Senator Boyle make prejudicial remarks about members of any said. group, particularly Travellers. I must, however, respectfully disagree with some It is true that many of the recommendations of of what was said on this side of the House. I dis- the 1995 task force report have been agree with Senator Twomey that the Equal Status implemented. The target was that by 2000, some Act had the effect of driving a wedge between 3,100 units of Traveller accommodation would be the Traveller community and wider society. That ready, 900 homes and 2,200 Traveller specific is wrong, although it may not be what he meant. units, halting sites or group housing schemes. The equal status legislation, which was initiated However, while the 900 houses have been pro- by the Labour Party ten years ago but supported vided, only 600 Traveller specific units have been by all parties, was an important development for provided. Another 1,500 Travellers, therefore, our society. It was the first serious step we took seek some form of permanent accommodation. as a community and society to put the sorts of I do not want to misquote Senator Walsh, who equality principles we espouse into legislation. It has left, or any of my colleagues. The argument gave the State statutory benchmarks by which has arisen constantly in this debate that when progress was to be made and scrutinised and put accommodation is provided, it is not respected. pressure on the providers of services to ensure The example is always given of the case where they did not discriminate against any member of accommodation was given to people who any group listed under nine prohibited grounds, damaged it or did not appear to be grateful for it. most importantly against the Traveller Seeking gratitude from the Traveller community community. is not what we should be about, although we want While Members of the House have different all groups working together. The benchmark of experiences and come to this issue from that progress is not whether members of the Traveller point of view, I come to it as a former councillor, community are grateful. Many Traveller families but also as a lawyer. I have acted in many cases who live on the side of the road do not do so by where there has been manifest discrimination choice, a fact I observed as a member of South against members of the Traveller community with Dublin County Council. I thank the Minister of regard to employment and, in some cases, the State for what he said about that council, the provision of services. I take exception to the management of which is very progressive. Travel- suggestion often made about abuse. Of course, ler families do not choose to live on the side of abuses occur. With most forms of statutory pro- the road without water or sanitation. It is the duty tection, people sometimes see the opportunity to of the State and legislators to ensure proper pro- press a case that may not have merit. However, vision for them by ensuring resources for local most of the cases I have seen have had merit, as authorities to provide decent accommodation for do most of the cases raised with the Equality people in that situation. Authority and other bodies. Accommodation is linked to the difficulty The level of discrimination seen in some of the Travellers have obtaining employment. How examples raised in tribunals and elsewhere would could it be easy for a Traveller of any age to sicken anybody, as would the level of naked obtain employment without an address. Traveller prejudice that still exists in society. It exists across organisations have often pointed out that without many of our respected institutions as well as in the benefit of an address, Travellers do not have corner shops, hairdressers, pubs and elsewhere. I access to employment. am not trying to tar everyone with the same I will wrap up as I know the Minister of State brush, but we need to acknowledge, notwith- is anxious to make his response. I thank him for standing all the progress we have made, that what he said and draw attention to his statement there is still deep-rooted prejudice across society that the rate of progress has been somewhat dis- and it finds expression in discriminatory behav- appointing. I agree with Senator O’Toole and iour towards Travellers with regard to employ- others that we should have targets. It is all very ment, and elsewhere. I do not lay this at the Mini- well to talk about agencies — it can be difficult ster’s door; we have had a week talking about to get one’s head around the various agencies and political accountability. However, the Govern- working groups — but we must set targets and ment must be alive to the possibility of discrimi- try to achieve particular outcomes. What achieve- 1763 Report on Seanad Reform: 28 November 2007. Motion 1764

[Senator Alex White.] dently. I understand the guidelines, currently ments on this would the Minister of State like to drafted, are considered as a work in progress. be able to report to us if he were to come back I am aware that Traveller organisations and to us in a year’s time? others such as the Equality Authority have pro- moted a form of State recognition of Travellers Minister of State at the Department of Justice, as an ethnic group. The Government has taken Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Sea´n Power): the view that while Travellers are clearly an I thank Senators for what were, in the main, con- indigenous minority community there is no firm structive contributions. I acknowledge the lecture rationale for a specific ethnic recognition. Travel- from Senator Twomey and thank Senator White lers already enjoy specific protection under for clarifying the situation. I will not go back over equality legislation and there is special provision the ground I already covered. for local authorities to provide culturally appro- I tried to give an honest assessment of the priate accommodation for them. situation as I see it and mentioned that, despite The Government has prioritised practical the significant investment we have put in place, policy implementation and it is difficult to see we have not achieved the progress we would like. how recognition of ethnicity, whether in law or We have put in place policies or schemes in a otherwise, would improve the day-to-day lives of number of areas that have worked successfully. Travellers in general. The equality legislation The plans require leadership and commitment. If provides specific protection for Travellers against we can be successful in some areas, there is no discrimination. It is uncertain if an additional reason the same cannot be done everywhere. recognition of ethnicity would add anything to I mentioned the Civil Service internship was the overall legal provision. The Council of very successful. I spoke with a number of partici- Europe has, in relation to the framework conven- pants, but my words cannot express how much it tion on national minorities, acknowledged that meant to them to participate in a programme in the issue is of lesser significance due to the pro- which they felt it would have been impossible to tections given in Irish equality laws. participate some years ago. One of the partici- I acknowledge that our social partners have pants later applied for a job and is now a full time agreed to work for greater progress for Travel- employee in a Department. Stories like that will lers. It is important that there is now a significant inspire other Travellers to take the extra steps dialogue among stakeholders in needed to succeed. There is no point in us asking 5 o’clock national consultative and advisory the private sector to employ Travellers if we are structures. In practical terms, the not serious about doing it ourselves and providing Government’s approach is one which supports opportunities for them. Travellers who are breaking out of old cycles of While it is important to have in place legis- disadvantage. It is imperative that we support lation to protect against discrimination, we must Travellers who are determined to seize new focus on changing people’s attitudes. It is incred- opportunities to improve their situations and that ible that while we might admire a family that of their families. To do this requires sustained decides to move to Wexford for three months of leadership and commitment, politically and at the the year, our view changes dramatically when a top levels in public bodies. It is also about sustain- Traveller family decides to live on the side of the ing and improving the working relationships road for 12 months of the year. between the State agencies and the Travellers’ I listened attentively to what Senators had to representatives. There are significant challenges say and will refer to a couple of points raised and questions asked. There are clear performance tar- and significant opportunities. Concentrating on gets, particularly in the areas of accommodation practical support measures will allow us to grasp and education. Senator Twomey mentioned the those opportunities and face the many chal- very successful primary health care programme. lenges successfully. That is fully supported by the State, although it I would be more than happy to return to the was his contention that the Government had House in 12 months’ time when I guarantee I will failed in that regard. However that was one of the be able to report major success on a number of successful examples which, for some reason, he fronts. happened to point out even though he did not give us much credit for achieving success. I Report on Seanad Reform: Motion. acknowledge the various comments on accom- Senator Dan Boyle: I move: modation, inclusion and cultural activities. I agree we need to pay continuing attention to these That Seanad E´ ireann welcomes the commit- areas. ment in the programme for Government, that Senator Norris raised the issue of information. this Government is to determine the extent of An all-Ireland health study is commencing which cross party agreement on the recommendations will improve information significantly. However, of the Report on Seanad Reform to advance the Senator is mistaken about the press council proposals for implementation, which pre- guidelines. They were not drafted by my Depart- viously had all party agreement, and work col- ment. The press council is established indepen- lectively to ensure that as many of these agreed 1765 Report on Seanad Reform: 28 November 2007. Motion 1766

changes can be achieved during the lifetime of the publication of that report. There is a new Da´il this Seanad. and Seanad and, with the participation of my party, a new-looking Government of which I am grateful to the Minister of State at the reform is very much a priority. On those grounds, Department of Justice, Equality and Law we need to assess whether the consensus still Reform, Deputy Sea´n Power, for his help in exists. I would like to believe it does and that opening the debate. However, I am somewhat there is a hunger among most in this Chamber disappointed, given the enthusiasm expressed, and the political process in general to achieve there are not more Members in the Chamber. It change in Seanad processes. What we can do is is possible, however, that as the debate progresses put in place a timetable to allow this to take many more will make contributions. The motion place. was tabled in an attempt to have all Senators ´ engage with the issue which has been talked As a Member of Da´il Eireann in the previous about, not only in terms of this the 23rd Seanad Parliament, I sat with Senator O’Toole and other but probably since its establishment in 1937. It is Senators on the informal group that was meant an unwanted statistic that 11 reports have been to implement the findings of the last report on produced on Seanad reform, none of the recom- Seanad reform. I must admit both disappoint- mendations of which has been implemented, out- ment and failure with regard to the working of side of a referenda in 1979 to allow the university that group, which was not entered into in the constituencies to be reconstituted. That is not a proper spirit. It was there to approach change record that reflects well on either the political from a minimal base and the very real agreement process or the willingness or ability of the House that existed in the report was largely ignored. to change with changing circumstances. There is now an opportunity to reinforce the When the Seanad was established in 1937, on agreement that existed at that time and the 23rd foot of Bunreacht na hE´ ireann, it was a sister par- Seanad is the perfect vehicle for doing so. It has liament of Da´il E´ ireann which, at the time, had 35 new Members, 25 of whom are in the 138 members. In the interim the population has Oireachtas for the first time and ten of whom increased by more than a third and the number were previously Members of the Da´il. On that of seats in the Da´il has been increased to 166. On basis, we can take ownership of a process that will ´ those grounds alone there is a need to look at the make Seanad Eireann an even more respected Seanad, who it represents and how it represents political institution. them. For the most part, the Seanad can take One of the changes which is necessary in terms great pride in its role as a revising chamber. The of public identification with the importance and argument that has been made by some in the pol- value of the Seanad concerns the element of itical process as to need for a second chamber has public election. I stand over this as a personal been fairly well rebutted. In most democracies achievement to be attained. Unless members of there is a second revising chamber and it exists the public can identify individually with this insti- for a reason. tution, we are very much in a black hole with In the history of the Seanad there have been regard to our political legitimacy. many instances where its existence was more than Political chambers throughout the world are justified by the role it played with particular elected by a variety of methods. The Australian pieces of legislation and in the role played by Senate, which was elected last week on the same Members in leading debates that were important day as its House of Representatives, in what was in Irish society at the time. We can take that as a a very successful election for the Australian non sequiter. That debate is not going to happen. Green Party, was elected by public vote. The There is a need for the Seanad and it needs to German second chamber, the Bundesrat, is make itself as vital and as important to the people reconfigured during the lifetime of a government as it can. That 11 reports have been produced, according to results in regional parliamentary without any action having been taken on them, is elections. As a result, it is not directly but a matter we need to confront as a chamber. The indirectly elected by the people, depending on most recent report carries the strongest degree of whom they elect. political consensus among all political parties and There is a mixture of three forms of selection it offers the opportunity of achieving real pro- and election to this House. The majority of gress in a short time. Members are elected by people who themselves The motion reflects the reality of what is are elected, which is a sound principle. The report included in the programme for Government needs to examine whether the 1,000 people who about which some Members might express disap- comprise that electorate make up a representa- pointment but it is written with a specific purpose tive enough sample. For example, town council- in mind. The programme for Government prom- lors, who are also elected, are not part of that ises to determine the extent of cross party agree- electorate. Questions also arise as to whether the ment on the recommendations of the report on value of each councillor’s vote is equal in that the Seanad reform and to advance proposals for population proportion for each councillor may be implementation. It was written in that way far greater or lesser depending on what part of because of the recognition that elections followed the country is involved. 1767 Report on Seanad Reform: 28 November 2007. Motion 1768

[Senator Dan Boyle.] might be difficult in terms of the public perhaps There are questions with regard to the panel using the opportunity to give a mid-term Govern- system which, although it was introduced on the ment a bloody nose or a kick in the shins, but this initiation of Seanad E´ ireann in 1937, plays a part- is not necessarily a bad thing because it would icular role in the Ireland of 2007. It is interesting help inform the policy debate and give the public that we are talking about a system that is now 70 an involvement in policy issues they would not years old. The panel system was meant to be a otherwise have between the main parliamentary reflection of the corporatist approach to politics elections. which was very much in vogue in the 1930s and The other suggestions as to how the Seanad was practised particularly in Portugal. We should should change relate to the other types of mem- be grateful we did not go fully down the road of bership in the House. The first relates to the uni- Dr. Salazar and his like. While that was the model versity membership. I have already outlined that in vogue at that time, we need to ask whether the only effort at change to have been made in the vocations which are meant to be promoted the 70-year history of the House was the holding through the panels are those which express public of a constitutional amendment in 1979 that has life in Ireland today and whether the weight given never been acted upon. The principles argued to them is the correct one. Do labour and agri- then remain the same. While the membership of culture have twice the value of culture and edu- university Senators is a very valuable component cation? Why is particular weight given to the of this House and their contributions are marked administrative panel or the industrial and com- and often illustrious, they must reflect the sector mercial panel? they represent. At present, that representation is The last report addressed this issue in a way limited to Trinity College and the National Uni- that made more sense. Instead of putting the versity of Ireland colleges. Clerk of the Seanad through some type of mental torture before every Seanad election in determin- Senator David Norris: Including the DIT. ing whether the candidates comply with the vocational heading under which they are seeking Senator Dan Boyle: The Minister is of a mind election, why not have an open election among that other universities and other degree graduates people who themselves are elected and get rid of can be brought into this process in a newly the fiction of the vocational panels? enlarged university constituency. Members of the House might find it more diffi- My final point, before my colleague addresses cult to accept the recommendations in regard to the changing functions of the Seanad, concerns the call for a degree of public election, which the Taoiseach’s nominees, although I realise my would mean a reduction in the number of seats difficulty in making this argument. The report available. There is talk of reducing the number of referred to increasing the number of Taoiseach’s seats from 43 to 26. Nonetheless, a panel of 26 nominees to 12. There is an argument that there seats, however they are divided up, would still should be a degree of nomination by the make for a lower quota than many of the present Taoiseach to provide a necessary Government panels. If candidates were practised public rep- presence in the Seanad at any given time. The resentatives, the method of election would be less number of nominees is a matter of debate. To use difficult and therefore the need to persuade many this as a mechanism to involve more people from public representatives would be lessened. Northern Ireland would also be of value. I return to the fact we have a Seanad member- Ultimately, if I were to invent a system for elec- ship that is vastly changed from that of the pre- tion to the Seanad, my personal preference would vious Seanad and the likelihood the next Seanad be to have a totally public election. However, I will be composed of people who are part of this see the value in the Seanad reform report in that rolling process of membership of the House. As it outlines where consensus exists, which is where we are part of this period of Seanad history, now we can move from. If we can reignite that consen- is the time to make these changes. Many of us sus, the changes proposed can be introduced in a can stand aside from being seen as having vested very short time. interests and can make the necessary arguments and changes. Senator De´irdre de Bu´ rca: I welcome the Another recommendation in the report is that opportunity to address the motion, which is the not only should there be a rolling membership of first Private Members’ motion tabled by me and the Seanad but perhaps a rolling form of election. my Green Party colleague, Senator Boyle. That Again, this could be a matter of debate in we have tabled a motion on Seanad reform shows determining whether consensus still exists. There the importance we place on the question. The is a value in having an ever-evolving Seanad out- issue was quite extensively debated during our side the Da´il’s election cycle. Other countries first couple of sitting days in the House when operate quite well on this basis. I referred to the Senators expressed their support for Seanad German example in which the upper house con- reform. However, as my colleague Senator Boyle stantly changes regardless of what is happening pointed out, while 11 previous reports have been in the lower house. Some seem to think the evol- produced on the proposed process of Seanad utionary approach to membership of the Seanad reform we have not seen any of those recom- 1769 Report on Seanad Reform: 28 November 2007. Motion 1770 mendations being implemented. Unfortunately, There are also proposals for a reformed higher there is always a tendency to carry on with busi- education representation system whereby all ness as usual. graduates of third level institutions in the State, It would appear that the political will to holding a primary degree or equivalent award at embrace reform has not been there up to now. In level seven in the national framework of qualifi- its current form the Seanad has been in existence cations, should be entitled to vote in Seanad elec- for 70 years and it is desirable to renew and tions under a separate higher education con- upgrade our democratic systems from time to stituency. time. To date, however, we appear to have lacked It was also recommended that a system of the political will to do so. The purpose of our indirect election be retained with a strong local motion is to recognise the important work under- government dimension. The Green Party sup- taken by the previous Seanad with cross-party ports that, as councillors around the country support and involvement. The sub-committee was should have an input in Seanad elections. The chaired by the former Senator, now Deputy, report recommended that 20 Seanad seats would Mary O’Rourke and other Members of this be filled by this method. House including Senator Joe O’Toole, former It was also proposed that the number of Senator John Dardis of the Progressive Demo- Taoiseach’s nominees be increased by one, to 12, crats, and former Senator, now Deputy, Brian and that in making his nominations the Taoiseach Hayes. They put together a well argued case for should have explicit regard to the capacity of Seanad reform with coherent recommendations. nominees to represent under-represented and One of the report’s conclusions was that the excluded groups in Irish society. Proposals were recommendations should be implemented in full, also made to have two nominated Senators from as a package and on an all-party basis. Northern Ireland, representing the Unionist and The purpose of this motion is to establish that Nationalist traditions, as well as Senators rep- cross-party support for the process of Seanad resenting the interests of immigrants and reform, as proposed in that report, still exists. If emigrants. so, we will be able to move to the next stage. We Strong recommendations were also made on a currently have a Minister for the Environment, revised legislative role for the Seanad. One excel- lent proposal concerned a formal system to allow Heritage and Local Government who is willing to for consultation with interested groups and indi- embrace reform. In examining this area, he has viduals early on in the legislative process. That brought to bear the commitment to reform in the would appeal to members of the public who often programme for Government. If Senators are do not know how to go about lobbying and thus willing to examine positively the recom- influencing legislation that passes through the mendations in the report of the previous Seanad, Houses of the Oireachtas. we will have a good opportunity to bring about Other recommendations included a new role such reform, which is so badly needed and for for the Seanad in EU affairs, which I strongly which there is a public appetite. support. In that respect, we could review draft There is a desire for reform because increas- EU legislation of major national policy import- ingly the Seanad is viewed as being less relevant ance as well as providing Irish MEPs with a than it should be. It is also seen as not having a domestic forum to discuss European issues. distinctive political contribution to make to the Recommendations were made concerning public overall political process. I know this from per- policy reviews in addition to giving the Seanad sonal experience. Since having had the honour of responsibility for scrutinising senior public being nominated to the Seanad, many constitu- appointments. ents congratulated me but in the next breath they The work that was carried out on that report asked what the Seanad does and what are its was both thorough and intensive. Its recom- functions. This highlights the extent to which mendations will involve constitutional amend- Senators are disconnected from ordinary citizens. ments requiring a referendum, as well as new It also demonstrates that the popular legitimacy legislation and amendments to the Standing we could and should enjoy is currently lacking. Orders of the House. The functions of this House were clearly out- The challenge facing this 23rd Seanad is one lined in the report of the sub-committee on for which there is a public appetite. It is up to us, reform produced by the previous Seanad. Some however, to decide whether we have the political of that report’s recommendations are excellent. will to make it happen. Change is not easy for As regards the composition of the Seanad, it is any of us and it must often be imposed rather proposed that Da´il and Seanad elections should than being voluntarily embraced. We are in a be decoupled. It is further proposed that a system unique position, however, to bring about such of rolling renewal of the Seanad be introduced reform. We have before us a report with excellent whereby approximately half the seats would be recommendations that we can examine and hope- elected every five years by a system of direct, fully support. We now have an opportunity to popular election. As my colleague Senator Boyle review and improve the quality of democracy that said, it that were to happen, it would stimulate attaches to the institution of Seanad E´ ireann. I much greater public interest in this institution. call on my colleagues to lend their support to 1771 Report on Seanad Reform: 28 November 2007. Motion 1772

[Senator De´irdre de Bu´ rca.] the sub-committee’s report. While that is Seanad reform. The Minister, Deputy Gormely, important, we do not need another report. made an announcement earlier today and will This report is impressive in terms of the 161 clarify his position here this evening. I am sure he written submissions, the four days of public hear- will be willing to help in the process of bringing ings and the great work done by Senator Joe about this reform. O’Toole, the former Senators Brian Hayes, Mary O’Rourke and John Dardis, and the former Senator Frances Fitzgerald: I move amendment Senator Brendan Ryan who was a member of the No. 1: group for a period. Its recommendations are rad- To delete all words after “Seanad E´ ireann” ical and far reaching. It recommends consti- and substitute the following: tutional and legislative change and extensive revisions of the Seanad Standing Orders. “notes I heard what the Minister responsible said — the importance to the democratic pro- about the university panels this morning. I do not cess of a vibrant and relevant Upper know whether he intends to select university House; panels and recommend change in that respect as opposed to what the report recommends, namely, — the agreement of all parties on an the introduction of a package of reforms. That agenda for change in the Report on would be a preferable way to proceed. Such Seanad Reform; change affects everybody. The way to deal with it — that the Report was published in 2004 would be to opt for a package of reforms as and three years after has still not been opposed to any one particular reform mentioned implemented; in this report. Fine Gael welcomes this debate. It offers us an and calls on the Government to publish a time- opportunity once more to discuss the need to scale for the implementation of the recom- reform this House and make it relevant, radical mendations of the Report prior to the next and ready for the challenges ahead. I will not sup- Election.” port the Green Party motion owing to its nature Perhaps I should check with Senator Boyle as to and context because the House should not con- whether or not he is accepting our amendment. gratulate the Government on its intentions. Rather it should condemn it for its inaction on Senator Dan Boyle: I would prefer not to. the reform agenda and put pressure on it to move forward in that regard. The House should view Senator Joe O’Toole: Good man. That is very the Government’s stated intentions with nothing polite of him. but a sceptical eye until we see that reform become a reality. That is the challenge we face Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: He is very polite. and it has been a tough one in the Seanad over the years because we have had so many reports Senator Frances Fitzgerald: That sounds like and even an constitutional amendment that was the Senator is open to influence, given that he not acted upon. We should not welcome the com- is looking for cross-party co-operation. A rash of mitment in this respect in the programme for requests for cross-party co-operation has broken Government until we see evidence on the ground out in recent days both here and in the Da´il. I of real change and commitment by all the parties am wondering if it has anything to do with the in government. difficulties the junior partners are having in per- I acknowledge the work of my predecessor, suading the senior partner, Fianna Fa´il, to accept Deputy Brian Hayes, who was the Fine Gael rep- their policies. resentative on the sub-committee. We published I agree with the points made by Senators Boyle our agenda for change of the Seanad as far back and de Bu´ rca concerning the quality of the sub- as 2003 with a comprehensive programme for committee’s report produced by the last Seanad. reform. Among the recommendations were for It is a most interesting document containing a the Seanad to be given a watchdog role on sec- good overview of the Seanad’s work, the poten- ondary legislation. Many statutory instruments tial for reform, and practical recommendations on become law with no parliamentary scrutiny a range of matters. As the report said, some of required only that they be laid before the the recommendations will be uncomfortable for Oireachtas for a 21-day period. Where more than people. There is no doubt about that. Change is 20 Members of the Seanad request it, the statu- uncomfortable for everyone, including politicians, tory instrument should be debated and voted on and people will have differing views on some of by the Seanad. the recommendations. Whatever about secondary legislation we are in It has been pointed out that we have a new the business here of dealing with primary legis- Seanad with 35 new Members, and parties are lation. It is ironic to speak on reform of the represented that were absent from the last Seanad on a week when the Government, backed Seanad. The Leader has said he would like to see by Senators Deirdre De Burca and Dan Boyle, what consensus exists on the recommendations of saw fit not to bring any legislation to the House. 1773 Report on Seanad Reform: 28 November 2007. Motion 1774

Not one Bill is before the House this week. I elected membership, the question of our mandate understand there is also an issue in the Da´il in will always arise. There are a number of recom- regard to the lack of legislation. I have some idea mendations in that regard. about what has happened but where is the legis- To enhance our democracy it is important that lation to be introduced and the legislative prog- there is Seanad reform, and I support the prin- ramme for the Da´il and the Seanad in this term? ciple that we should try to get as much consensus as possible on the matter. Senator David Norris: Hear, hear. Senator Alex White: I second the amendment. Senator Frances Fitzgerald: What is happening This is an extremely important debate. I com- to the critical legislation to which the partners mend the Green Party on bringing the forward committed themselves in the programme for debate relatively early in this session of the Government, of which we have not had sight and Seanad. Its members are doing us a service in we are some eight of nine weeks into this term? doing so. I am happy to support the amendment That needs to be dealt with. to the Green Party motion for reasons to which I In regard to European affairs, we recom- will return. We are here to promote debate and, mended that all MEPs elected on the island of hopefully, we can do that. Ireland should have the right to attend and speak One point on which it is worth reflecting in the Seanad but not vote. We are talking about initially is that, whereas the Seanad has an real links between Leinster House and Brussels important role in the debate about the Seanad, in the work ongoing at European level that this Seanad does not own this institution. The 60 increasingly influences our everyday lives. That Members who are honoured to be in this Seanad suggestion is included in the recommendations in do not own it; it belongs to the people of Ireland. the report of the sub-committee. Whereas we have an important role to play as We face a challenge in getting members of the experienced people — some of us have long public on-side to support the EU reform treaty experience as Members while many of us have and ensuring they understand its provisions, of only recently become Members of this House — which currently they have little understanding. A we should not lose the run of ourselves and think major challenge faces us to ensure the people this is an opportunity for us to carve up this oper- understand what they will be voting on in a refer- ation, as it were, for the benefit of those who are endum on the reform treaty, if we are not to have already elected here. We should have a wider a repeat of the outcome of the Nice treaty refer- perspective on it. That is reflected in the report endum. There is an opportunity here for the prepared in the last session and in the motion the Seanad to play a strong role in European affairs. Green Party has put before us. I do not criticise The report of the sub-committee contains anybody when I make that remark but it is some- many recommendations. While it is not possible thing we should bear in mind. to go through all of them, the attendance here of While I commended the Green Party on bring- former Taoisigh should be encouraged. That is an ing forward this motion and on sponsoring this important recommendation and is a feature of debate, the wording of the motion is contradic- other democracies. The attendance of the Leader tory. Like Senator Fitzgerald, I have an aversion of the Seanad at Cabinet is another important to being asked to welcome a commitment in the recommendation. Deputy Mary O’Rourke said at programme for Government. Words to that effect the time of the publication of the report that she are included in the first line of the motion. did not wish to be appointed to Cabinet in her then role. She need not have worried so slow was Senator Dan Boyle: What about the word “ack- the action on the report. nowledge”?

Senator Alex White: Senator Donie Cassidy Senator Alex White: Perhaps in future when might aspire to that role. Members on the other side are trying to get us to adopt a multi-party position on an issue, they Senator Frances Fitzgerald: I believe that was might drop the word “welcome” in the context of the last thing that was going to happen. Since the programme for Government, and that might 2002, the Leader of the Fine Gael group in the get us thinking a little more quickly. Seanad has been a member of the party’s Front Bench. We take this House seriously. Senator David Norris: We could do it now. I agree with what Senator Boyle said and with what is stated in the report, namely, that the issue Senator Dan Boyle: It could be noted. is not about abolishing the Seanad but that it is very much part of our democracy. The issue is Senator Alex White: I do not mind noting it how to move forward, of that there is no ques- but welcoming it causes me some difficulty. tion. Without doubt the greatest issue that the public has with Upper House is its democratic Senator Dan Boyle: What about acknowl- legitimacy. Without a predominantly directly edging it? 1775 Report on Seanad Reform: 28 November 2007. Motion 1776

Senator Alex White: We can review the words. In the debate on the representation of third If we can discuss the basis for agreement as level institutions, with which some have difficulty, between the two proposals, let us do that in the we should at least ask whether such represen- course of the next two hours. This is an important tation can be justified at all. debate for us to have. On the few occasions this debate has arisen in Senator Joe O’Toole: Hear, hear. the House since I have become a Member, it has tended to be quite loud and sometimes Senator Alex White: Let us debate this. I am intemperate. not convinced, but am open to being convinced, that there is a real, democratic basis for having Senator David Norris: Never. a sub-electorate of university graduates electing Members to this House. Senator Alex White: A bogus comparison, which I acknowledge is rhetorical, is made Senator Ann Ormonde: Why not? between the direct electoral college in the univer- sities and the indirect college by which Members Senator Alex White: If there should be, why are elected by councillors. That does not compare should there not also be a sub-group of electors like with like. Senator David Norris and other who have graduated from secondary schools, or Members know that. There is a direct electorate of electors who are not graduates at all? in the universities and an indirect electorate of councillors. It is not unprecedented across the Senator Ann Ormonde: There is. world to have an electoral college of persons who are themselves already elected. It is not new. An Cathaoirleach: Senator Alex White with- There are plenty of precedents where parliaments out interruption. and presidents are elected on the basis of an elec- toral college comprising persons who are them- Senator Alex White: The university panel was selves already elected. selected in the first instance for a very sound and solid historical reason dating from the 1930s. (Interruptions). Trinity College and the Church of Ireland had a particular historical position that made the Senator Alex White: It is no use for Senator creation of the panel absolutely correct. David Norris to say he was elected by 150 people. Since I have become interested in politics, I have admired the work of past and present Senator David Norris: It is perfectly true. Members on the university panel, including Owen Sheehy Skeffington and, I have no difficulty in Senator Alex White: It is true in the sense of saying, Senator Norris, whose contribution to 150 people. public life has been immense. This is not intended as a condescending remark, regardless of whether (Interruptions). Senator Norris interprets it as such. If anybody in public life deserves to be in an upper house such An Cathaoirleach: Allow Senator Alex White as this, it is he. In this regard, I would also include to continue without interruption. many of his colleagues, including Senator Feargal Quinn, who have made significant contributions. Senator Alex White: Are we going to have a We want to hear their views, as does the public, debate or this nonsense of interruption, and but that does not mean they should be elected intemperate interruption at that? Let us just simply because they are university graduates. listen to each other. I will be listening to Senator Why should we maintain what is essentially an Norris because I have great respect for him. anachronism, that is, an electorate of third level On the question of universities, we need to graduates? “Anomaly” is probably a better word know the proportion of all living graduates of to describe it. I am sorry the word “elitist” Trinity College and the National University of offends some — I am certainly not using it with Ireland who vote in elections or who are even this intention — but it hints at the criticism that registered to do so. If we want to throw brickbats the 30% or 35% of the voting population who at each other when deciding which panel is most are graduates are afforded special treatment. This representative, we must analyse the electorate criticism should be part of the debate. Five or six pertaining to each in addition to the entire pro- other proposals have been mentioned by cess. The main reason behind the amendment to Senators and I would love an opportunity to the Constitution in 1979 was apprehension that address them at another time. the National University of Ireland would be broken up, and another reason was to facilitate Senator Camillus Glynn: It is true that nothing legislation to ensure third level colleges other is ever perfect, irrespective of whether it is in than universities could elect Seanad rep- vogue for a long or short time. As an elected resentatives. forum, the Seanad is no different and it should be 1777 Report on Seanad Reform: 28 November 2007. Motion 1778 pushing out the boat in terms of how it does its councils, county borough councillors, incoming business, how it is comprised and how it is per- Da´il Deputies and outgoing Senators should be ceived. Some do not see the Seanad in a good reduced. The selection of only 20 would be unsat- light but, as a House of the Legislature, its isfactory. Members can be proud of how it reviews legis- The point made on elected Members constitut- lation. Its teasing out of legislation has been of ing a college is not only pertinent to Ireland but proven benefit to Governments, both past and is also reflected in many jurisdictions worldwide. present. At the request of the Taoiseach, an informal all- Much has been said about the role of the uni- party parliamentary group on Seanad reform was versities. I have no problem with the universities established in 2005 and chaired by the Minister or the inclusion of other third level institutions for the Environment, Heritage and Local on the university panel, but we should consider a Government. Of the 43 Members elected by group that has been bypassed and overlooked for county boroughs to the five vocational panels, many years, namely, the borough and town coun- only one was elected to the group, yet the five cillors. They are elected but are not represented panels contain 43 Members of a 60-Member in this House. There are five county boroughs, House. This bears thinking about. The informal with a total 60 members. There are 36 members reform group addressed proposals that attracted from three 12-member town councils and 414 early consensus and which are capable of imple- from 46 town councils, formerly called district mentation in the short to medium term. Prior to councils, and 234 from former town commissions. the general election, the group referred to a This results in a grand total of 744 elected number of draft Standing Order changes concern- members without representation in this House. ing the Committee on Procedure and Privileges They are under the umbrella body of the Associ- of Seanad E´ ireann, to be piloted as sessional ation of Municipal Authorities of Ireland. It is orders. well worth noting that a certain town, as opposed to a borough, that was represented until recently Senator David Norris: Hear, hear. by at least one Member of this House has a greater population than either of two counties. Senator Camillus Glynn: I am proud to say I The latter have county councils and I therefore am paid from the public purse. I run a full-time support the retention of the right to rep- constituency office in Mullingar which I believe I resentation. should do as I am paid from the public purse. I I am not entirely happy with the proposal to will make no apologies to anyone for so doing reduce the input of county councillors on the five nor will I give myself a slipped disc by clapping vocational panels. I have no difficulty in myself on the back. extending the number of seats in the Seanad to 65 It is common for federal states, such as the to accommodate representatives from Northern USA, Canada and Germany, to have an upper house of the legislature. In a federal system, the Ireland, ethnic groups and immigrants or emi- upper house is where the interests of constituent grants. I have no difficulty in supporting strongly states are balanced. Ireland, however, is a unitary the automatic return to the House of the state and not a federal one. Under the unitary Cathaoirleach. This is long overdue. system of government, there are two main argu- ments in favour of having an upper house. Senator David Norris: Hear, hear. I am not exactly happy with what this report contains in regard to locally elected Members. I Senator Camillus Glynn: Past and present ask Members to bear in mind that there is a very Cathaoirligh have been very badly treated by the large elected group which is excluded from rep- system that has obtained to date in the Seanad. If resentation in this House. nothing is done other than addressing this, a good day’s work will still be done. Senator David Norris: They are not. Nobody, including Members of the Oireachtas, will be too offended if I say the level of debate Senator Camillus Glynn: They are. in this House is excellent. The contributions of Members on all sides have been innovative, Senator Joe O’Toole: I wish to share my time reforming and productive. Above all, they have with Senator Norris. proven more than worthy in terms of upgrading and introducing legislation. An Cathaoirleach: Is that agreed? Agreed. The report on Seanad reform recommends sig- nificant reform of the Seanad electoral system, Senator Joe O’Toole: I am firmly committed to including the rolling renewal of the Seanad and an upper house. At present the Seanad is unrep- the introduction of direct election to a single 26- resentative, undemocratic, anachronistic and seat constituency. Reform involves a number of unfair in the way it is put together. The point facets. I am not entirely satisfied or happy that raised by Senator Alex White is right in that a the number of Senators elected by the county university electorate is elitist, a cadre, exclusive 1779 Report on Seanad Reform: 28 November 2007. Motion 1780

[Senator Joe O’Toole.] more sense than this nonsense of knowledge and and unacceptable in a democracy. However, it is experience of education, etc. not the only thing which is unacceptable. The We need to make changes and implement the only reason I am on the university panel is that I proposals. There is a roadmap for implemen- would not have got a vote on the cultural and tation and milestones and targets are included in educational panel despite the fact I was the boss the report. If we do not agree to the amendment, of the largest, oldest and most widespread edu- I will co-operate with the Government motion. cational organisation in the country, nor would I The business could be done in two months and have got a vote on the labour panel despite the we could move forward. Let us make people put fact I was president of the largest labour organis- up or shut up. We must be conscious of people ation on this island. The only way I could have a who have been elected by county councillors. voice in the second House of Parliament was to People should be given time to adjust and make be on the university panel. That is why it needs changes to what is proposed. reform. Senator David Norris: I will support the Senator David Norris: Exactly. amendment to the motion. I indicated I would sign it but I am afraid it was a little too late. My Senator Joe O’Toole: However, we must ask problems with the motion are manifold. I refer why there is a university panel. If we worked on to the word “commitment”, for example. Senator the basis of one person, one vote I would not O’Toole got a commitment from a previous have a difficulty with maintaining the university Leader of the House, Michael Lanigan. When he panel. In other words, if we elected people by asked if the commitment would be fulfilled, he direct vote and if 10% of Members were elected was told it was not an absolute commitment so by university graduates — although I have no there are different kinds of commitments. They doubt a lot more than 10% of the population are not all musical groups. The motion is also would be graduates — I would not have a diffi- grammatical nonsense in that it states “that as culty with that. I am not, however, enthusiastic many of these agreed changes can be achieved”. about it. My view since I became a Member — I As many as what? Is it as many as I want? Is it have been on every reform group for 20 years as many as the Pope decides? Is it as many as the — is that if it comes down to that, farmers and Minister wants? It does not make sense; it is not fishermen should vote for those on the agricul- logical. However, I understand what the Govern- tural panel, education partners should vote for ment is at. those on the cultural and educational panel, regis- I agree with the idea of Seanad reform. That is tered members of trade unions should vote for why I tabled a motion which the Government those on to the labour panel and business people voted down in the first couple of weeks. All the should vote for those on the administrative panel. Members on the Government side trooped The nominating bodies should have votes. It is through the lobby to vote against exactly what disgraceful that they have no impact beyond it proposes tonight. However, I detect a greater nominating people. These are some of the gaps degree of seriousness in the tenor of this debate. in the system. In such a structure, there would be Something probably will happen but I hope it is a strong case for maintaining the university panel. not confined exclusively to the university seats, I am completely in favour of extending the vote although I welcome the extension. However, we to all third level graduates. I am a great loser in ought to look at the way it is being extended. I this regard because primary school teachers, who have suggested various ways to retain certain are my base, who graduated after 1996 have not characteristics of the constituencies, but that will been allowed to vote. My vote potential deterio- be up to the majority to decide. rates every year so, therefore, I have a vested I issue one warning. We should not make it a interested in increasing the university franchise. vast constituency of 250,000 or 500,000. That will I have no problem with the concept of indirect Americanise the process. Only people with elections, which works in France, the USA and in money and the incumbents will be able to go for- many countries. It is a distillation of democracy ward. It would be fine for me; I have a high pro- in that one layer elects the other. The only prob- file on radio and television. If I am not being lem I have with it at present is that the prepon- arrogant, I believe I would have a reasonably derance of people elected that way is good chance of getting elected, but let us think of unacceptable. My view is that the Seanad should some young person with radical ideas. How become slightly larger and that the number of would he or she get elected and how would he or Members should be increased to approximately she finance the election? If we are going to do 70 and that the number elected indirectly would that, we will have to provide a certain amount not be reduced to 20 but should be perhaps 30. I of finance. very much agree with the point made by Senator The university panel has encouraged people. I Boyle. The idea of a national list, a national would never have got elected but for it. It is 30 panel, to elect people indirectly makes much years since I started to campaign to get into this 1781 Report on Seanad Reform: 28 November 2007. Motion 1782

House. I never wanted to be a Member of the ture, enfranchise people and give voting rights to Da´il. I am one of the people who wanted to be a the ordinary members of the nominated bodies Member of this House. There are such people in and then one will cover the whole country. all parties but we are a minority. Most people want to get into, or back into, the other House. I Senator Donie Cassidy: In respect of the point was the one who coined the phrase about this made by the eminent Senator Norris, good and House being the intensive care ward of the Da´il. worthy people are not always popular people. We I am unrepentant about that. I have made sub- have seen how the greatest people have stood for missions which Members should read if they are election and have not been elected at the early interested. stages for one reason or another but have become I am make no apology for the university rep- probably the best parliamentarians we have had resentation. I do not agree with Senator Joe during that particular time in the country’s O’Toole on this. There is no need for an apology. history. It is not particularly elitist and if it is, what about When I entered the Seanad in 1982, it used to it? There is a lot to be said for elitism and for sit for about half a day a week. It would then sit people who have certain qualities. I salute the for only about seven months of the year. We have people who got university degrees; I think they come a long way and have achieved a great deal. are great. The greatest change I have seen in my time here I am not taking any lessons in democracy from has been the fact that almost 30% of legislation the parties. I remember being in this House when is initiated in this House. It is a great tribute to people were dragooned in to vote for people for the Taoiseach, the present Government and those whom they were told to vote by their parties. of the past ten years that this has been the case. There are a number of people on both sides who The amount of good work that Senators have remember that. It happened in every party. There done in respect of legislation and the assistance was no democracy. they have provided to Ministers and their port- In regard to this delegated university suffrage folios and Departments has been untold. We rubbish, Senator Camillus Glynn gave the lie to have certainly have made an immeasurable posi- that when he spoke about the office in his con- tive contribution in this House. stituency. His constituency is not Mullingar; it is We must also say that over that period, there the administrative panel. The way one gets has been a huge amount of change in personnel proper representation is by enfranchising the here. If we look back over 25 years, we can see people. It is a laughing stock. I remember the that only two Senators from that year are serving president of the Royal Irish Academy putting in the House and two others have just passed the himself forward but he did not get a single vote. 25-year service mark. If one looks at the new Somebody else, whose blushes I will spare, Seanad, one can see that it has 35 new Members topped the poll. That tells one how representative and that 25 Members have not previously served and democratic it is. in either the Da´il or the Seanad. It is not an old In regard to university representation as boys’ club and that lie should be put to rest. opposed to the other, I am not taking back any- We must see the facts and use common sense. thing I said about county councillors earlier The Seanad is a necessary second or upper house today. I saw the programme on Tuesday night. for the protection of the Constitution on behalf I know there are very decent councillors such as of the people on a mostly non-political basis. The Senator Hannigan, who is a former councillor. level of debate in this House deals with legislation However, many Members of this House were and proposed amendments to legislation placed caught by the tribunals with their before us. The serious and urgent matters that 6 o’clock fingers in the jam. This was because arise occasionally need the urgent attention and they were members of councils and the expertise among Members of Seanad E´ ireann this must be addressed and removed. I remember that may not be available in the Da´il. There are being in this House when every single named Members of the Seanad who would never get officer of this House stood for election and was ´ rejected by the people. One of the most elected to Da´il Eireann for one reason or important of them stood for election to the Da´il another. This has been handed down for gener- and was rejected by the people, stood for the ations and we have all seen the greatest examples European Parliament and was rejected by the of it. people, stood for the Seanad and was rejected by In respect of the job being done in the Seanad the people and was then nominated and made a in respect of this review, all panels will be Member of the Seanad. That is democracy. seriously reviewed. However, if something is Perhaps I will be told I am being inflammatory good, one should not break it. Something that but that is the situation. If one is going to do does not meet modern needs must be amended something, one should not just target the univer- and adjusted. There is a place for everyone to sity Senators where one gets bloody good value. play. I am fortunate to be one of those Senators One may not always like it but one gets good elected to and represented on those five panels value out of it. One should look at the whole pic- and am certainly very happy with the way they 1783 Report on Seanad Reform: 28 November 2007. Motion 1784

[Senator Donie Cassidy.] ties. As a member of the British-Irish Inter- contribute to the House in a true vocational sense parliamentary Body and the Oireachtas Joint that was set up by the former Taoiseach and Pres- Committee on the Implementation of the Good ident, the late E´ amon de Valera. Friday Agreement, I assure its members and Given the work done by the Leaders and the Members of this House that I know that it would Chief and Deputy Whips of all parties and every- be wonderful if the Six Counties were rep- one assisting in the Seanad, as well as the number resented. Four Senators represent Ulster but they of hours they put in, the issue of remuneration are from Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan. They must be examined. There is no such thing as a represent these counties excellently but we must part-time Senator; Senators are here for three have representation from the Six Counties. If and a half days. In my job as Leader of the there is an increase in the panels and it must go House, I spend four full days here. Given the to a referendum, I know the people of Ireland work done by the Government Whip, the small will overwhelmingly give their approval so that amount of money given to them borders on an this could take place. insult. The Seanad E´ ireann of the future must be a These are serious matters which the review 32-county Upper House. For that reason, we must examine. Given the calibre of the people should have a review of the Seanad. Many good who are asked to perform the duties of the Upper suggestions have been made which will be exam- House, they must be seriously rewarded. Nobody ined by the most experienced Members of the does nothing for nothing nowadays, so to speak. House. Everyone who is elected, irrespective of I am saying this on behalf of other Members the panel he or she is elected to, is elected to rather than on my own. I fully support the pro- bring change and enhance the legislative process posal that the Chair be automatically returned. in respect of bringing Bills forward and bringing The Chair must be impartial. We have a good everything before the House. The contribution Chair who can attend functions, cannot pose for they have made has been immense and must be photographs in a political basis and must be acknowledged. I acknowledge it as Leader of the totally independent. The person who assumes this House. We are now looking to the 21st century position is at a considerable disadvantage if he or to see how we can enhance it. Party politics have she intends to stay in politics. We want people of not been played to the same extent that they have the highest calibre occupying the Chair and I fully at the present time. I understand that this is a support the proposal that the Chair be automati- levelling-off period. Young Members have cally returned, as is the case in Da´il E´ ireann. entered the House who are enthusiastic and ener- As I said on the Order of Business today, I will getic. By the very fact of entering this House, ask the Clerk to present the Members of the they believe things can be changed very quickly. Seanad who were not previously Members of the Coming from the world of private enterprise, the Da´il or Seanad and the Members who had pre- most significant change I came across was realis- viously been Members of the Da´il with the last ing that getting things done can take a long time. two reviews on Seanad reform so they can read Once Members get over that teething problem, over them. Senator Glynn made a valuable point they will make an immeasurable contribution. I that most Senators participating in the last review look forward to Seanad reform. I congratulate the were selected Senators. The elected Senators, Minister, a man who takes on the challenge with especially the 43 elected by the panels, should be gusto, on his appointment. representative and represented. I am not casting any aspersions on anyone as quite senior parlia- Senator Maurice Cummins: I wish to share time mentarians and very experienced people, both with Senator Buttimer. male and female from both sides, for whom I I welcomed the report on Seanad reform when have the highest regard were on the group. I cer- it was published some years ago. One of its main tainly acknowledge the great service they have items was the suggestion that reforms ensure that given Ireland in their terms in both Houses. My “the Seanad, or more realistically Seanad com- former colleague, former Senator John Dardis, mittees, would become vehicles for more wide- who was Deputy Leader of this House and with spread and effective public consultation”. There whom I worked so well down through the years, are a number of ways we can approach reform. was a true gentleman of the highest standing. I We can amend Standing Orders, a proposal for value their advice. However, there was also a pre- which is before the Committee on Procedure and vious report so perhaps we will get the Clerk to Privileges at present. Many of the suggestions of give everyone two copies of those and we will the report can be covered under Standing Orders, have a look at them over Christmas. Perhaps then such as allowing a former Taoiseach to attend the we can continue this debate, which will not con- Seanad on a matter before the House or having clude this evening. I know it is going to continue. MEPs speak in the House, which has already hap- The question of the Six Counties must be pened. These are laudable reform suggestions. addressed because we have seen the new Ireland. Another concerns scrutiny proposals for legis- We must have representation from the Six Coun- lation under Community treaties, which the Joint 1785 Report on Seanad Reform: 28 November 2007. Motion 1786

Committee on European Scrutiny concludes is of ments in The Irish Times with regard to the uni- significant and national importance. They should versity panels. As a graduate of the Pontifical be debated here. Select committees can and University of Maynooth I should have a vote in should be formed to deal with the mid-term EU Seanad E´ ireann because my degree is no differ- policy and consider the development of the Euro- ent from those of Trinity College, DIT, UCD or pean Union in the long term. There is the sugges- UCC. tion that a sub-committee on social policy and social partnership be formed, to be reflective on Senator Feargal Quinn: The Senator does have instruments of social partnership such as the a vote. National Economic and Social Council, the National Economic and Social Forum, the Senator Jerry Buttimer: It is the Pontifical Uni- National Centre for Partnership and Performance versity of Maynooth. and the National Economic and Social Develop- Our party has been to the forefront in pro- ment Office reports. These can be done under posing reform of this House. Let us have a mean- Standing Orders, constituting a major item of ingful debate but let us not home in on the fact reform. that most of us are elected from vocational panels by councillors. Like the Leader said, what is good Most people think of Seanad reform relating to should be retained and where there is a demo- the manner in which Senators are elected. It is cratic deficit it should be changed. There is no the item that grabs the headlines but it is a small such thing as a part-time Senator. I, like others part of it. The vocational panel system has served here, work harder than some Members in the the House well and should be retained, with some Da´il. We should get the recognition we deserve modifications. Up to 20 people should be directly as a relevant House. It behoves us to make it elected by the people, based on European Parlia- relevant. ment constituencies or otherwise. There should The media, which pays scant regard to this be a five year set term. Perhaps holding the House, has a role to play in Seanad reform. The Seanad election on the same day as the general coverage is paltry and is not good enough for the election would separate the powers of the Senate Upper House of the Parliament. and the Da´il. I am sorry I agreed to share my time now because I could talk about this for a Minister for the Environment, Heritage and long time. It is laudable that we are having this Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): I debate. Anyone who thinks that Seanad reform apologise for not being here for some of the con- refers to the method by which we are elected is tributions but I heard them on the monitor. I losing the plot. must leave for a meeting at 6.30 p.m. but I am glad the Seanad is debating this serious issue. I Senator Jerry Buttimer: As one of the new thank Senators Dan Boyle and Deirdre de Bu´ rca Senators to whom the Leader referred, I deem it for moving the motion. an immense honour to be elected to this House. Our national political institutions are at the Seanad reform should not focus on how we are heart of the State and it is vitally important that elected, as Senator Cummins pointed out. I was they remain effective and relevant in a changing elected by councillors on a panel including the world. As such, reform of the Upper House Leader and Senator Cummins. From meeting deserves our attention and our dedicated efforts councillors I know they take their jobs seriously, to bring about beneficial change, when war- despite the criticism heard today. Some 99.9% of ranted, to strengthen the legitimacy and efficacy them, across all political parties, are decent, of Seanad E´ ireann. upright people who take their jobs seriously. The programme for Government makes a clear I do not see the Upper House as the intensive and unambiguous commitment in that regard. care ward of the Lower House. It is meaningful, The programme states that the Government will there are 35 new Senators, new parties are rep- determine the extent of cross-party agreement on resented and it represents the voice of the people. the recommendations of the report on Seanad Parties who organise voting pacts and observe reform to advance proposals for implementation. how their party members vote devalue this The commitment to seek to advance Seanad House. That should be stopped. It is important to reform forms a part of the Government’s overall have an Upper House. Reform of the electorate approach to Oireachtas reform. The programme will not make the House more democratic. states that the Government will also reconsider Reform is always mentioned with regard to this the recommendations of the Joint Committee on House but the manner in which we carry out our the Constitution regarding Dail reform, and will business is far more important. There should be pursue the issue of reform of Oireachtas sitting Question Time in this House. Senators should times, Oireachtas procedures and strengthening have the ability to table parliamentary questions. the role of committees. We should be able to hold Ministers to account In February 2003 the Seanad Committee on rather than having Adjournment debates or stra- Procedure and Privileges established the Sub- tegic motions. I agree with the Minister’s state- Committee on Seanad Reform. The terms of ref- 1787 Report on Seanad Reform: 28 November 2007. Motion 1788

[Deputy John Gormley.] provided by law, to other institutions of higher erence of the sub-committee provided that it education in the State. The 1979 amendment was should review and make recommendations on the originally introduced to facilitate the intended future composition and functions of the Seanad, break-up of the NUI. However, legislation was particularly its electoral system and its role in the not introduced or enacted to give effect to the areas of legislation, parliamentary accountability, constitutional amendment because the break-up public policy and EU affairs. It is notable that of the NUI did not subsequently occur. the sub-committee did not work in isolation. The For the information of Senator Cummins, I public’s involvement was encouraged and 161 understand there is a problem with the photo- written submissions were received. In addition, copier but that copies of my script are being made the sub-committee held four days of public hear- and will be circulated shortly. I apologise for the ings. This demonstrates a considerable commit- delay. ment on its part to engage as fully as possible with society. Senator Maurice Cummins: I thank the The Sub-Committee on Seanad Reform pub- Minister. lished its report in April 2004. Deputy John Gormley: The approach of the Senator Maurice Cummins: On a point of sub-committee to re-evaluating the role of the order, will copies of the Minister’s script be Seanad, advocating and embracing reform and circulated? developing new roles for this House, while main- taining its integral character and status as part of Deputy John Gormley: I was obliged to rush our modern democracy, is to be commended. The back to obtain my copy of the script. I hope 2004 report was not the first effort made to further copies can be circulated to Members. address the reform of the Seanad. A total of 11 The report sets out a package of comprehen- separate reports on the reform of the Seanad sive recommendations for further consideration have been published. These principally focused and action concerning the composition, functions on its composition and electoral system. The first and future role of Seanad E´ ireann. Many of these report was published in the aftermath of the recommendations are radical and far-reaching. Seanad election in 1928 and, aside from the 2004 The principal recommendations propose that report, the most recent reports were published in membership of the Seanad be increased from 60 1997 and 2002 by the All-Party Oireachtas Com- to 65; provision be made for the automatic re- mittee on the Constitution. election of the Cathaoirleach; 32 of the 65 It should be noted that the conclusions and senators to be directly elected — 26 of these seats recommendations of the 2002 and 2004 reports would be filled from a single national constitu- differ in many respects. For example, the seventh ency under a list-PR system and the other six by progress report of the All-Party Oireachtas Com- election from reformed higher education con- mittee on the Constitution, published in 2002, stituency, with graduates from all higher edu- recommended the direct election of 48 senators cation institutes in the State being eligible to and the abolition of all university seats. However, register; 20 Senators to be indirectly elected by despite the differing approaches recommended county and city councillors, Deputies and by the various reports on its reform, the Seanad Senators under PR-STV system; and 12 senators is widely considered to face several principal chal- to be nominated by the Taoiseach. Another of lenges. The 2004 report states that the Seanad’s the recommendations is that the Seanad would be distinctive role is unclear and that the system of renewed on a rolling basis, with direct elections election to the House diminishes the public legit- — including in the higher education constituency imacy of senators. — taking place every five years on the same day There is also the issue of university represen- as European and local elections and, similar to tation in Seanad E´ ireann. Current arrangements current practice, indirect elections to take place exclude the graduates of the vast majority of third and the Taoiseach’s nominations to be made, level institutions, despite the fact that a consti- within 90 days after a Dail election. tutional amendment was passed in 1979 to The recommendations also refer to widening broaden the scope of the franchise beyond Trinity the franchise for the higher education constitu- College Dublin and the National University of ency in Seanad E´ ireann. The current restriction Ireland to other institutions of higher education of the Seanad university seats to three elected by in the State. Aside from the disparity between graduates of the National University of Ireland graduates who are entitled to vote and those who and three by Trinity graduates has been acknow- are not, the system has been criticised because it ledged by all parties as anomalous. The Seventh confers a basic democratic right to certain people Amendment of the Constitution Act (Election of and denies it to others solely on the basis of edu- Members of Seanad E´ ireann by Institutions of cational achievement. Given the constitutional Higher Education) 1979 permits the extension of opening, however, I am of the opinion that the higher education franchise, in a manner to be reform should focus initially on widening the 1789 Report on Seanad Reform: 28 November 2007. Motion 1790 third level franchise. That is a matter I am not operate in isolation from the Lower House. I anxious to progress. will be writing to the party leaders soon, At the request of the Taoiseach, an informal requesting their nominations in respect of that all-party parliamentary group on Seanad reform group. However, consensus cannot be allowed to was established in 2005 and was chaired by my become paralysis. If I cannot obtain agreement, I predecessor. The group’s role was to assess the will be obliged to proceed in respect of extending extent of cross-party agreement on the sub-com- the third level franchise. mittee’s recommendations and to advance, with I take this opportunity to state that the consensus, proposals for the implementation of Government welcomes all contributions from Seanad reform. The group addressed proposals across the House. Senators may rest assured that which attracted early consensus and which are their views are key to the future of the reform capable of implementation in the short to process. medium term. The group met on four occasions between October 2005 and November 2006, hav- Senator Ivana Bacik: I wish to share time with ing adopted a pragmatic work plan with a view to Senator Quinn. initially progressing the recommended Standing Orders changes that could be implemented in the An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is that agreed? short term. Agreed. Prior to the general election, having consulted Senator Ivana Bacik: I am pleased my name is with the relevant Oireachtas committees and appended to the amendment to the motion. I Government Departments, the group referred a fully support calls for reform. The amendment number of draft Standing Orders changes, to be goes further than the motion by calling for the piloted as sessional orders, to the Seanad Com- publication of a timescale in respect of the imple- mittee on Procedure and Privileges. The draft mentation of the recommendations of the 2004 sessional orders relate to the attendance of report. The Minister provided a concise summary former Taoisigh and Ta´naistı´; assessing legislative of those recommendations. They received all- and other proposals going before EU Councils; party support and members of Fine Gael, the reviewing particular draft EU legislation of major Labour Party and Independent Members signed national importance; developing a medium-term up to the amendment calling for a timescale to policy framework for EU affairs to address chal- be published. We have consensus and we could lenges andopportunities facing Ireland in the next proceed to implement the report on a compre- ten years; and public policy review in respect of hensive basis. medium-term economic and social planning and My concern following the Minister’s speech is social partnership. I understand the Seanad CPP that he suggested he will move forward only on is currently considering the draft sessional orders. one element of reform if all-party agreement is The all-party group also examined the higher not forthcoming. This would be a shame. The education constituency reform proposals of the entire spirit and tenor of the report is that whole- 2004 report but consensus did not emerge. sale reform of the Seanad is required. If one Clearly, the question of Seanad reform is a core examines the report, one sees it states a radical element of the wider debate on democracy and alternative to the vocational panel system is the political process. The 2004 report acknow- required as well as a radical alternative to the uni- ledged that it has considerable political impli- versity panels which clearly require reform and I cations and that difficult decisions, involving sen- accept this. sitive political matters, will have to be taken. I am sorry Senator Buttimer was not able to However, it is argued in the report that if pro- vote as a graduate of Maynooth. Persons who gress is to be made, there is an urgent need to graduate from both NUI and Trinity have two accept the political reality that Seanad E´ ireann votes and if such a person is a councillor or a must be reformed if it is to make a viable and Deputy he or she would have three votes. This is distinctive contribution to the economic, social not democratic and, admirably, the report recom- and political affairs of our country. mends that people choose which aspect of the The election of the 24th Seanad is not due for Seanad election to vote in, for the higher edu- five years. I intend to ensure that the intervening cation panel or for the 20 members to be elected period is used to address reform, particularly the by Deputies, councillors or Senators or for the issue of the Seanad higher education constitu- national constituency. This gives choice and ency. I am anxious to see Seanad reform — based ensures no one has more than one vote. on an all-party, consensus approach — advanced. I am not convinced about increasing the The reform of our institutions of national govern- number of Taoiseach’s nominees. This would ance deserves and requires non-partisan, inclus- have the effect of neutering the Seanad. The ive methods. I intend to establish and chair an all- report points out the perception of the Seanad as party group in the near future which, I hope, will being weak, ineffective and of questionable value have sufficient weight to deliver consensus and is compounded by the fact that it is dominated by which will reflect the fact that the Seanad does the Government. I do not see why the 1791 Report on Seanad Reform: 28 November 2007. Motion 1792

[Senator Ivana Bacik.] Minister or a civil servant would do it in the full Taoiseach’s right to nominate should be present, and open transparency of this House. If this bringing with it an in-built Government majority. system worked it would be a major improvement I appreciate the report correctly recommends on the recognition for the political system and that if the Taoiseach’s nomination power is to be process we have. retained it should be placed within certain legis- Another change that could be made is the lative parameters as to the criteria to be used in introduction of question time. When the Minister selecting the people to be nominated and include for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, representatives from Northern Ireland and accepted questions last week it was a healthy under-represented groups in Irish society. method of using this House. On balance, I favour the recommendations in the report. However, I hope they will be Senator Jerry Buttimer: Hear, hear. implemented together and that not only the changes which can be made through legislation, Senator Feargal Quinn: I congratulate the namely, changes to the university panels, will be Leader for organising it. made but also the changes requiring consti- I am on the Oireachtas Joint Committee on tutional change. Given that this report of 2004 is European Affairs and I believe we need to do far the 12th report we have had and it represents more work with regard to the scrutiny of Euro- cross-party consensus we could see a timeframe pean legislation. If we do not do so in committees put in place which would see us having a consti- we could use the Seanad to do so. When I spoke tutional referendum, perhaps at the same time in April 2004, I mentioned the need for changing next year as the referendum on children’s rights. the Constitution and I know there is great diffi- culty in doing so. We change it only for the elec- Senator Feargal Quinn: I thank Senator Bacik toral system. If we are going to change it again for sharing her time. I support the amendment for the university electoral system we must to and I was not sure whether I would do so until I consider how seriously we can do so. came to the Chamber and listened to what was All, including those of us fortunate enough to being discussed. My objective, and the objective have been elected by NUI and Trinity, recognise of many of us, is to ensure the Seanad becomes a the unfairness of the system. I apologise to creative and viable force in the political process. Senator Buttimer. When he stated he was a I fear this is not likely to happen. I was disap- graduate of Maynooth, I assumed he had a vote. pointed to hear the Minister state he was anxious I recognise not only this college but other third- to progress. I know he has been in office only a level colleges do not have a vote. It would be use- short time but phrases such as “anxious to pro- ful for them to have a vote. Having this system of gress” and the suggestions he made indicate a election is of major benefit and extending it to danger that a talking shop will continue for a nine seats, which has been suggested, would also long period. be extremely useful. I do not agree entirely with Senator Bacik with We need reform. However, I am not sure the regard to the 11 nominations of the Taoiseach. public recognises this in the same way we do One of the benefits of this is that it makes the because I do not believe they regard us highly. House less confrontational because the Govern- Those of us here know the amount of work done ment usually has a majority. I have great diffi- and what we have achieved. A great deal can be culty with the five vocational panels being party stated in favour of a bicameral system. Recently, political. It is beneficial to have independent I was written to by a professor in New Zealand seats. During the period from December 1994 to who is writing a report on bicameral systems the change of Government in 1997 when the throughout the world. He asked for details on the Taoiseach nominees from the previous Govern- Irish system because he was anxious to learn ment remained, the joy of being one of the five about it. Independent Senators with the balance of power When speaking about Seanad reform we tend made it well worthwhile. We had more forceful to speak about the electoral system. While we and capable debates. Let us hope something need to reform the electoral system, we can do a similar happens again. great deal apart from this. This debate is similar to the one we had on 27 April 2004. Reading the Senator Ann Ormonde: I wish to share my time speech I made on that occasion, I realise I could with Senator Hanafin. almost make the same one today. Previously in this House, I made the point that An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is that agreed? what upsets me about our system and why I Agreed. believe we lose credibility among the public is the use of lobbyists who come in behind the scenes. Senator Ann Ormonde: I listened carefully to I would love to see this House used for open and the debate and a consensus is apparent. This is a transparent lobbying with no other lobbying political Chamber. It is subordinate to the Da´il allowed. Anybody who wishes to influence a and is dissolved when the Da´il is dissolved and 1793 Report on Seanad Reform: 28 November 2007. Motion 1794 because it is a political Chamber we must con- to jump to the other House. I consider the people sider our electorate. who do that as opportunists who are not fulfilling The Seanad is composed of five panels which their role properly. One is either a professional have a range of nominating bodies. I am con- Senator or going somewhere else. I do not want cerned about the number of nominating bodies to be regarded as passing through or at a retire- coming out of the woodwork today. My nominat- ment stage of my life because that is not the way ing body is relevant to the issues which arise in I conduct my business. This Chamber is being society and which are discussed in this House and spoiled because too many people are in transition I speak for it when I can. We could examine nom- rather than concentrating on the proper role of inating bodies. the Seanad. Local authority members guard their right absolutely to select Senators and rightly so. It Senator John Hanafin: I share the views of should remain like this for the simple reason that many of the previous speakers with regard to the they have been elected themselves. Local auth- value of the Seanad. In many cases, the role ority members are professional people who know played by the Seanad is not fully recognised. the electorate and who will not be told who they Between the 1980s and the present, the Seanad should elect. They are good at assessing every addressed issues such as the pro-life and anti-div- candidate. My first election to this Chamber was orce campaigns and stem cell research in a coher- in 1993. I had to get to know my electorate and ent manner, to the benefit of the overall debates. that was how I was elected. That is the only way The most practical proposal is to retain a any of us should be elected to this House. I do system that works. Some reforms may be not want this Chamber to become a mere step- required but the system of five vocational panels, ping stone to the Lower House nor do I want it university seats and Taoiseach’s nominees, which to be a retirement home for those who have was voted into being in 1937 by almost 1.2 million nowhere else to go. I am a professional Senator people and enacted in 1938, should be retained in and I have a significant role to play here. full. Parts of the system may need to be tweaked, We have addressed many issues, such as the which implies small changes. These changes may undocumented Irish in the United States, our include the number of nominating bodies and overseas aid programme and EU legislation. university seats. The number of Seanad seats There was public outcry in regard to EU should, however, increase by a minimum of 15, directives on public service and agriculture but and possibly 20, to reflect the expansion of the the public felt these issues were not being aired. Da´il from 122 seats in the 1920s to the present I blame the media for that because after we 166. debated the issues here, I looked for coverage in I am amazed at how certain proposals can be the newspapers and on television and radio but taken seriously, such as the indirect election of 20 failed to find a single line. The media rather than Senators and the election of 26 through a national Senators are at fault because we make good con- constituency. If Senators are elected by a national tributions and scrutinise and initiate legislation. constituency, they would not readily accept the That is how I would like reform to be introduced. constraints preventing them from dealing with financial resolutions or amendments that could I am totally opposed to the proposals on direct frustrate legislation. Most bizarre of all is the pro- elections which would be held alongside local and posal that Seanad elections should take place at European elections. The public would be con- the same time as local elections. At a practical fused if any further elections were held on the level, how could the 20 potential Senators from same day. I also oppose the list system and I will my panel alone meet each individual councillor? not have my or any other party making a list of Some 100 people will be trying to meet a council- who should be elected. That is not democracy to lor who is standing for election and does not want me. Local county councillors will not be told by to meet any Senators. I do not know how that the hierarchy of any party who they should elect. proposal was made. I have problems with many of the recom- The system as it stands is not broken, although mendations before us. it may need to be tweaked. We need to increase We have opportunities for internal reform. our numbers but retain the basic principles of uni- Senator Cummins referred to reform on the versity seats, Taoiseach’s nominees and Order of Business. I find it distasteful that the vocational panels. Order of Business is like a classroom in which we have to raise our hands for attention. Such a Senator Dominic Hannigan: I wish to share system is not professional for Senators and it time with Senator Doherty. should be changed. I would like to see reform in that regard. There is room in this House for conti- An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is that agreed? nuity among professional Senators who are really Agreed. interested in whatever comes before them. We should explore how we can enhance the role of Senator Dominic Hannigan: I am pleased to be the Seanad rather than use it as an opportunity speaking about the issue of reform so early in the 1795 Report on Seanad Reform: 28 November 2007. Motion 1796

[Senator Dominic Hannigan.] Private Members’ Bill during the term of this life of the current Seanad. All too often, members Seanad. of the public have questioned me about the rel- evance and legitimacy of this House. I am glad Senator Pearse Doherty: Ba mhaith liom ar the Green Party has put forward this motion and dtu´ sba´ire buı´ochas a ghabha´il leis an Seanado´ ir would like to see cross-party support on the issue. Hannigan fa´ choinne am a roinnt liom. Ta´ me´ Some may argue that a certain section of society buı´och freisin leis an Chomhaontas Glas as ucht would not be well served by Seanad reform. To an ru´ n seo a chuir ar an gcla´r inniu. Is cinnte gur be more specific, Senators would argue it is like dı´ospo´ ireacht fı´or-ta´bhachtach, ata´ ag dul ar turkeys voting for Christmas. I disagree with that, aghaidh ar feadh blianta, ata´ ann. Ba cheart du´ inn however, because reform is in our interest. It will rudaı´ a leanu´ int suas agus a chuir i gcrı´ch i ndiadh add legitimacy to the House and, as a result, na dı´ospo´ ireachta. increase its prestige and standing. Sinn Fe´in was not part of the sub-committee I would like to see change in the composition which examined Seanad reform because the party of the Seanad and the type of work it carries out. was not represented in the previous Seanad when The 2004 reforms proposed 65 seats in the Seanad the report on Seanad reform was formulated. which would be elected by councillors, Deputies Reform is necessary. Although the proposals in and Senators, as well as six from the university the report do not go far enough, any reform of panels. While I am aware of the incomparable the Seanad, however small, must be welcomed contributions made by Senators elected from the because it is a fundamentally undemocratic, elitist university panels, their system of election is forum. Sinn Fe´in advocates the establishment of archaic. We need to consider the complete a reformed, democratic, transparent, accountable removal of university panels because it is not fair and relevant second House of Parliament. The to give somebody a vote purely on the basis that Seanad should afford a role for civic society and he or she had the benefit of a university edu- provide for fuller representation from all sections cation. It is unjust, undemocratic and elitist. A of society in the legislative process. previous speaker asked what is wrong with eli- A second House could be constituted so as to tism. Not long ago, people in this country fought represent those not adequately represented in the for the right to share the franchise with women Da´il. It is beneficial for the democratic nature of and those who did not own property. Elitism goes government to have a second House of Parlia- against the principle of equality and for that ment which provides a system of checks and reason we need to scrap the system of election balances on Government legislation and policy. based on education. I want those seats to be added to a national list system. All Members of the Seanad should be elected Reform is also needed on the system of indirect by the citizens of the 32 counties, those who have election by councillors. I am aware the current been resident on the island for five years or more proposals call for the number of seats thus elected and all those aged over 16 years. I am disap- to be reduced from 43 to 20 but I would like to pointed the Minister does not intend to include reduce the number to ten. I recognise that some these proposals in his reforms. Under the Sinn Senators and councillors will face difficulties in Fe´in proposals, which the party submitted as part such a system, so we should consider the experi- of the process of drawing up a report on Seanad ence of the UK House of Lords and introduce reform, pending the reunification of the country, reform on a gradual basis. After implementing those citizens of Ireland who are resident in the the present proposals, we could wait then five Six Counties would be able to cast their ballots years before considering a further reduction in by postal vote and Northern representation, a the number of seats elected by councillors and commitment across all parties in the All-Party Deputies. That should be built into the Committee on the Constitution, could be realised legislation. in the House. I agree with the Leader that the With regard to the work undertaken in the House could become a 32 county forum in the House, we should spend more time dealing with Irish Parliament. Are we serious about bringing European issues and, as recommended in the about this objective? Does every party subscribe report, organisations should come before the to it? If so, the House has an option to allow citi- House to present their annual reports and take zens across the 32 counties to vote in elections to questions from Senators. These steps would fos- the Seanad. ter greater interest in the work of the House Irish emigrants in London, Birmingham, Scot- among members of the public. land, America and elsewhere in the world should I welcome the debate and compliment the be allowed to cast their votes by registering with Green Party on tabling the motion. I will, the relevant Irish embassy. During the recent however, support the amendment tabled by the general election in Poland, candidates for the Pol- Fine Gael Party as the report on Seanad reform ish Parliament travelled to Ireland to canvass must be implemented sooner rather than later. members of the Polish diaspora here. Emigrants Failing this, I will press my party to introduce a should be represented in the Seanad. 1797 Report on Seanad Reform: 28 November 2007. Motion 1798

Sinn Fe´in favours having six vocational panels, is more democratic. Nobody stops to ask who including a community and voluntary panel, would draw up the list, how it would be drawn through which Senators would be elected. To up and what criteria would be applied. I have no tackle the under-representation of women, a gen- doubts about how this would be done and will der quota of at least 30% should be applied in oppose any move towards the creation of a list each panel. system for Seanad elections. The current system These proposals address the mechanism by may have some defects but, as Senator Alex which Senators would be elected to the House. White noted, Senators have a mandate. While We must also deal with the functions of the Senator Norris may argue that a Senator may be House. Scrutiny should be its main role with elected with just 50, 60 or 70 votes, each of these Senators scrutinising draft domestic legislation votes probably represents 1,000 electors. Those and furnishing reports to the Da´il, including spec- who elect councillors at local government level ific recommendations for amendment, with- give them a mandate to take decisions on their drawal, further consultation, impact assessment behalf. Many of these decisions impact directly and fast-tracking of progress. Sinn Fe´in proposes on the people councillors represent. There is significant changes to the current legislative nothing anomalous about the fact that they also Stages. Prior to consideration by the Da´il, all pro- exercise this mandate to elect Members of the posed legislation would first pass scrutiny by the Upper House of the Oireachtas. Seanad, in a process to be known as Second It may be necessary to extend the franchise to Stage. A new stage would include a community all councillors as only a little over half of council- consultation process. lors at county and city council level currently We cannot tinker at the edges of Seanad have a right to vote. It may also be necessary to reform, as the Government proposes to do. The change the vocational panels. While they prob- report on Seanad reform does not go far enough. ably had a purpose in 1937 when the Seanad was One of the most undemocratic aspects of the elec- established, their resonance is missing today and tion of Senators is the privilege afforded to the they are no longer the best method of electing Taoiseach to nominate 11 Senators. This is a rid- Senators. We could adopt regionalisation, an iculous mechanism which would be described as approach frequently suggested during election a form of dictatorship in any other country. To campaigns when one travels the country. While propose to increase the number of Taoiseach’s certain reforms may be necessary, fundamentally nominees to 12 and allow the majority of there is nothing flawed about indirectly electing Senators — 33 of the proposed 65 Members — to Members to the House through local rep- be political appointees does not make sense. We resentatives. should not be afraid of allowing people across the Senator Doherty referred to the Taoiseach’s 32 counties to speak. Let them decide who is best nominees. I do not know how one could abolish to represent them in the Upper House. this system while ensuring a working majority for Government in the House. This is a practical dif- Senator Jim Walsh: The most recent report on ficulty which those who served in the rainbow Seanad reform, which forms part of the motion coalition from 1994 to 1997 experienced when before the House, was not agreed on an all-party they introduced legislation. As somebody who basis and there were many dissenting voices in lobbied on particular issues in the marine area the Fianna Fa´il Party on a range of its proposals. I from the outside during that period, I recall propose first to respond to some of the comments engaging the Independent Senators with a view made on the proposals regarding the university to thwarting the measures the then Government Members. Before entering the Seanad I con- was endeavouring to introduce. I see some sense sidered it somewhat discriminatory to allow two in looking at a better or more effective method universities elect six Senators. To be fair, of doing it, if there is one, but I cannot think of however, since becoming a Senator, I have found anything better. that the university Members make a valuable I feel particularly strongly about Northern contribution to the House. While I disagree with Ireland representation. The House can play a piv- them on many occasions on a range of topics, otal role by having among its Members all shades they bring a dimension to the House which would of political opinion on this island. We be missed were they to cease being Members. 7 o’clock should have a minimum of ten Members from Northern Ireland. I Senator Ivana Bacik: I thank the Senator. have discussed this with Unionists and people interested in the development of politics on this Senator Jim Walsh: Having said that, the fran- island who have a role to play. They have said chise should be extended to include all third level that without a minimum number it would be too institutions. I do not concur with those who argue difficult for them to take part, as they are so eas- for the abolition of the electoral mandate for ily isolated within their communities and parties. graduates of third level institutions. This should not be done by nomination, but by There is a notion that we should adopt a list election and our current system would be one system because this model is used elsewhere and way to do it. We should work through the various 1799 Report on Seanad Reform: 28 November 2007. Motion 1800

[Senator Jim Walsh.] An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator Boyle, with- conduits we have with politicians of all shades in out interruption. the North to try and bring this about. This would be a major step in rationalising political thinking Senator Dan Boyle: I withdraw that. The basis on the island. of what I said is that the existence of a place on the list is determined by a small number of Senator Dan Boyle: I thank Senators for their people, which is an even greater diminution of contributions and particularly for the tone and the electoral process. We should examine this. tenor of the debate which demonstrates that It is important, in order to get greater public membership of the House is consistent with the acceptance of the important work we do as belief we exist to serve. How we do so depends Senators, that we get a degree of public involve- on the quality of this House and its structures. ment in the selection of Members of this House. I cannot accept the amendment put forward by This was the most important recommendation of the Fine Gael and Labour Party Senators as it is the last report. The degree to which we can agree too descriptive. I ask those who moved the that and the extent to which we can bring in the amendment to consider the Minister’s speech, in necessary proposals for constitutional change will which he gave a clear commitment that an all- determine how successful the 23rd Seanad is in party committee will be established immediately. ensuring we have a vibrant Seanad in the future. The first task of that committee will be to deter- I am glad there is consensus the legislative mine in a short timespan that all-party agreement changes should be made with regard to the uni- still exists on the basis of the last report. versities will be made in the short term. The com- I was struck by the final comments of Senator mittee to be established by the Minister will have Walsh, that some Senators, who were Members as part of its brief a reason not only to advance of the last Seanad also, do not agree with the that legislation, but to ensure that in the course of recommendations. We are not talking about una- this Seanad we make proposals for constitutional nimity or the views of individual Senators. We are change. Otherwise, any bringing forward of part- talking about how all political parties and Inde- icular legislation would be unfair to the spirit of pendent Members can come to a consensus. As I the existing and all preceding reports. Either we said earlier, this is not how I would propose the believe in change that is consensual and wide- Seanad to be. I would like to see a publicly ranging, or we will continue without any change elected Seanad. However, I recognise that the at all. Seanad is the way it is for a reason. Any changes I welcome the Leader’s call to return to this we bring to it should bring the best of what exists issue. I am glad I and my colleague, Deputy currently with it into the future. De´irdre de Bu´ rca, have had the opportunity to We should not kid ourselves. There is a list use Private Members’ time to raise this important system in our current arrangements for electing issue of discussion early in the life of this Seanad. Senators. It is called the inner panel and it is The promise of a full day’s debate in February on determined solely in the backrooms of party the wider issues, following the formation of the offices. committee and, hopefully, after it has made an early assessment of its work, will give the House Senator Jim Walsh: On a point of order, the another opportunity to deal with how it can parties vote to select their Members. advance the agenda for change. I thank all Senators for their contributions. Senator Jerry Buttimer: The coalition is in crisis. There is no consensus, come to our side. Amendment put.

The Seanad divided: Ta´, 14; Nı´l, 27.

Ta´

Bacik, Ivana. Fitzgerald, Frances. Bradford, Paul. Hannigan, Dominic. Burke, Paddy. Kelly, Alan. Buttimer, Jerry. Norris, David. Coffey, Paudie. O’Toole, Joe. Coghlan, Paul. Ryan, Brendan. Cummins, Maurice. White, Alex.

Nı´l

Boyle, Dan. Corrigan, Maria. Brady, Martin. de Bu´ rca, De´irdre. Butler, Larry. Ellis, John. Callely, Ivor. Feeney, Geraldine. Carty, John. Glynn, Camillus. Cassidy, Donie. Hanafin, John. 1801 Food 28 November 2007. Labelling 1802

Nı´l—continued

Harris, Eoghan. O’Donovan, Denis. Keaveney, Cecilia. O’Malley, Fiona. Kett, Tony. O’Sullivan, Ned. Leyden, Terry. Ormonde, Ann. MacSharry, Marc. Phelan, Kieran. O´ Domhnaill, Brian. Walsh, Jim. O´ Murchu´ , Labhra´s. Wilson, Diarmuid. O’Brien, Francis.

Tellers: Ta´,De´irdre de Bu´ rca and Diarmuid Wilson; Nı´l, Senators Maurice Cummins and Dominic Hannigan.

Amendment declared lost. Whether one is on a diet, the information given is of interest and relevance to many. It gives Motion put and declared carried. people the right to choose one tin of tuna over another. As people become more aware of the An Cathaoirleach: When is it proposed to sit fact one tin of beans may well have twice the cal- again? orie content of another brand, they will soon make the consumer choice to suit their new Senator Donie Cassidy: Tomorrow at 10.30 knowledge base. Of course, if the lower calorie a.m. product is not tasty, the product will not ulti- mately succeed or at least the diet will change Adjournment Matters. course. What I have said thus far could not be con- ———— sidered in any way controversial or an over-the- top requirement. Much discussion is ongoing in Food Labelling. the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food about food labelling. Therefore, I ask why Senator Cecilia Keaveney: I thank Senator the same level of interest is not generated in what Fitzgerald for facilitating me in my desire to we drink. The issue of where a product came speak first in the debate. I also thank the Minister from, what it contains and how strong it is may of State, Deputy Killeen, for attending and the be addressed on the labels of many products but Cathaoirleach for allowing me to deal with the how many of us are aware of the calorie content matter. While some will deliberately misinterpret of the full or quarter bottle of red or white wine my raising of this important issue to suggest I am we are consuming? Is it not strange we know how a killjoy, I hope Members will listen carefully to many calories are in a 330 ml can of Diet Coke, what I have to say. a 500 ml bottle of Diet Club Orange or in 100 ml We are continually aware from reports of Irish of a diluted soft drink? This is easily broken down people’s abuse rather than use of alcohol. We are to give us a sense of how good we are being when continually warned of the rise in levels of obesity. we indulge, although on another day we should We are continually encouraged as communities to consider how healthy are E-numbers and sugar move more and more towards healthier living and replacements. to engage in exercise beyond the raising of a It is no accident this calorie information is not glass. We hope that our children in the schools readily available on alcohol products. At least do the same and that our new generations are not one company supplying the “light” version of its exposed to the obesity levels predicted for them. product has put the calorie content per 100 ml on I combine these thoughts and point out that as bottles and cans — they are not light on alcohol a person who, like many males and females, but light on calories. Some of the other “light” enjoys participating in the very popular sport or alcohol drinks are light on alcohol content but fad of dieting, there is a current lapse in the pro- omit the calorie information. In either case, the vision of vital information, a deficit which must information is not complete and, while I might be addressed. I refer to the move to labelling in assume what may be termed the “light” aspect is the food world. There is increasing use of label- either calorie or alcohol content, I may not ling with regard to salt, protein, carbohydrates, necessarily be correct, particularly if the infor- saturated and unsaturated fat, sugar levels and so mation is not provided. forth, as well as allergy warnings for the presence My basic point is simple. I am a consumer. I of, for example, nuts, and quality assurance and want the choice of purchasing a product on an country of origin labelling. Most notably, there is informed basis. If I am watching my weight, why a labelling of calorie content per 100 grammes can I be facilitated by the food industry but not and by packet content — this is often left at an the drinks industry? This is a market to be index figure but is sometimes converted into a tapped, and it may challenge some producers to weight watchers points tally. produce a lighter product. That research and 1803 Food 28 November 2007. Labelling 1804

[Senator Cecilia Keaveney.] With regard to alcoholic beverages, allergens development aspect would provide a new career must be labelled as well as alcoholic strength for opportunity for some. It would challenge them to beverages with alcohol content greater than 1.2% produce a product that people still wanted to by volume. Currently, the listing of ingredients is drink when compared to the original product. not required for alcoholic beverages. However, However, it may also let those who realise they the legislation states the intention to bring for- have consumed a bottle of wine, six pints, six ward rules for the labelling of the ingredients of alcopops or half a bottle of vodka or gin on a alcoholic beverages. Thus, the derogation from night’s socialising know a little more as to why the requirement to list ingredients is a tempor- their latest food-fad diet is not working and edu- ary one. cate them into exercising more choice. The European Commission is currently I speak as one who wants to see the alterna- reviewing labelling legislation in order to recast tives develop, whether this is in the form of high and modernise its provisions. The labelling of or low alcohol content. Variety would definitely alcoholic beverages will of course be considered be a great aspiration but to have the truth of the in the context of this review. The objective will content of recurrent products made visible to be to address the lack of obligation upon the pro- consumers would be an important start. ducer to label the ingredients of alcohol. The Commission has also indicated that the review Minister of State at the Department of will explore the feasibility and viability of using Communications, Energy and Natural Resources warning labels on the containers of alcoholic bev- (Deputy Tony Killeen): I thank the Senator for erages to raise awareness on the harmful effect of raising this important matter. I take the Adjourn- alcohol on health. ment on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for In February 2006 member states were invited Health and Children, Deputy Mary Harney. to make submissions on an EU consultative docu- I welcome the opportunity to set out the cur- ment entitled “Labelling, Competitiveness, Con- rent position in regard to the labelling of alcohol sumer Information and Better Regulation for the products in Ireland. Labelling is one of the key EU”. As part of the consultation process, member states were asked to consider whether elements of food and drink safety. It provides the health warnings on alcoholic beverages could be consumer with the information necessary to make an effective means to inform consumers about healthy choices regarding consumption. In this risks associated with inappropriate consumption regard, alcohol labelling is of paramount of alcohol. At the request of the Department of importance. Health and Children, the Food Safety Authority The dangers of excessive alcohol consumption of Ireland undertook a public consultation exer- are well-documented. For example, earlier this cise. The observations received assisted in year a report entitled “The Coombe Women’s developing the Irish response to the questions Hospital Study of Alcohol, Smoking and Illicit raised. The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries Drug Use 1988-2005” was launched. The results and Food was also consulted, as it is responsible of this study in regard to alcohol consumption at national level for some directives relating to among pregnant mothers were a huge concern foodstuffs. given the growing evidence and research into the The Department of Health and Children link between alcohol and foetal alcohol spectrum responded to the Commission consultation, sug- disorders. The particular pattern and prevalence gesting, inter alia, that the script on labels on of binge drinking among the female population alcohol products should be of sufficient size to of child-bearing age in Ireland significantly allow for general readability and be clear so that increased the likelihood of harm being caused to the reference to light products would distinguish a developing foetus. between light in calories and light in alcohol; lab- Legislation on food and drink labelling is els should list ingredients and display calorie con- developed within the European Union regulatory tent; and an indication of origin should be com- framework. Directive 2000/13/EC, as amended. It pulsory on all spirits. The response also noted provides the legislative framework for the infor- that the strategic task force on alcohol in 2004 mation that must be indicated on the labelling of recommended that a health warning label be foodstuffs for sale to the ultimate consumer. The placed on all alcohol products and alcohol pro- scope of the directive encompasses all foodstuffs, motional materials. It was suggested that the con- which includes alcoholic beverages. Its aim is to cept of health warnings on alcoholic beverages be ensure that the consumer gets all the essential further developed following the publication of information as regards the composition of the the EU alcohol strategy in 2006. product, the manufacturer, methods of storage, It is expected the Commission will issue a draft preparation and so on. Producers and manufac- labelling regulation in December of this year. turers are free to provide whatever additional Member states will then be given an opportunity information they wish, provided it is accurate and to debate this document at length. The Depart- does not mislead the consumer. ment of Health and Children is committed to 1805 Schools Building 28 November 2007. Projects 1806 robustly advocating the benefits of the points Deputy Tony Killeen: I thank Senator raised in our submission. We would expect that Fitzgerald for raising the matter as it affords me the developments which I have outlined to the the opportunity, on behalf of the Minister, to clar- House will ensure a comprehensive approach to ify the position of the Department of Education food and beverage labelling will be achieved. and Science regarding the playing fields at Scoil Chro´ na´in. In 2003, the Department agreed to dis- School Facilities. pose of a small portion of its lands at Scoil Chro´ na´in to facilitate the upgrading of the N7 Senator Frances Fitzgerald: I thank the and to provide alternative access from Main Cathaoirleach for giving me the opportunity to Street, Rathcoole. This small portion of land for- raise this issue. I ask the Minister for Education med part of the school’s playing field. The agree- and Science to clarify the situation regarding the ment was subject to a number of conditions, playing field beside the church which was pre- including the making good and reseeding of the viously used by Scoil Chro´ na´in in Rathcoole, playing field on completion of the works. County Dublin. It cannot be utilised currently While the improved access has now been pro- owing to the state in which it has been left follow- vided, the Department was notified by a rep- ing upgrade works to the N7. Furthermore, I ask resentative of the school management that some the Minister to confirm whether her Department works still remain outstanding, specifically relat- owns this field and, if so, whether she has any ing to the reinstatement of the playing field. The intention of selling it for development, and what, Department subsequently raised the matter with as far as the Department is aware, is the current South Dublin County Council, which has advised status of this field and its ownership. I am con- that the only outstanding works at present relate cerned by the way the school and its community to landscaping of the green space that was have been left with a cloud of confusion and affected by the provision of the access road. The uncertainty with regard to the future of the play- Department is further advised that a landscaping ing field and school facility. contractor recently commenced works to cut back The matter seems quite simple at first. There is growth on the site and that the area will be top a field located near the school, which is used by soiled and reseeded. the school for student recreation. The field then As Senator Fitzgerald will appreciate, the became inaccessible owing to the need to upgrade school management is better placed to monitor the N7. However, the school’s board of manage- progress of the works and to ensure their com- ment was left in no doubt by the council that the pletion. The Department will shortly be con- field would be restored to its original state follow- tacting the school management in this regard. I ing the conclusion of the upgrade works. Yet, at can confirm that the school site, including the this stage, the school has been unable to use the playing field, is in State ownership and that there playing field for over four years. Its management are no proposals at the present time to sell any has been left in a situation where it has had to of the lands in question. Once the grounds are pursue endlessly the council and the Department reinstated the field can be used by the school for of Education and Science on this matter. The recreational purposes. I thank the Senator once people concerned are stressed and concerned again for raising this matter and allowing me to about the impact on the school and the children. clarify the Department’s position relating to I ask the Minister to intervene and clarify the these lands. matter. Put simply, without access to this area, the school must continue to incur significant Schools Building Projects. costs, both financial and timewise, in trying to Senator Maria Corrigan: I would appreciate it arrange for students to be transported to other if the Minister of State can provide us with a facilities. timeframe for the completion of a permanent The situation could also affect the number of school building for Holy Trinity national school children the school can enrol in future owing to in Leopardstown. This is a new school that serves the limited recreation space without the use of the Leopardstown-Ballyogan area. It was estab- this field. I ask the Minister to clarify the owner- lished under the auspices of the Stepaside area ship of this area. If the Department owns it, is it action plan to serve one third of this rapidly in a position to give an undertaking that it will developing area. The school, now in its third year, not be sold for development and will be available is a vital part of our community and is essential to Scoil Chro´ na´in in future? The school has been to the community’s future development, cohesion a wonderful educational amenity to the com- and sustainability. It currently has classroom munity of Rathcoole. The Department should facilities for junior infants, senior infants and first support its endeavours to provide comprehensive class pupils who are in temporary accom- and holistic educational facilities, including the modation. use of this playing field once more. This simple In January 2006, the school was given a com- matter is of great concern to the school in ques- mitment for a permanent building. It was indi- tion and its board of management. cated that this project would be fast-tracked and 1807 The 28 November 2007. Adjournment 1808

[Senator Maria Corrigan.] build a new 24-classroom school on a 2.5 acre site. the timeframe for completion was 12 to 18 The project is currently at an early stage of archi- months. Some 21 months later, however, a tectural planning. The stage 2 submission, sketch number of delays have been experienced. The scheme, is currently under review in the Depart- architect’s stage 1 and 2 plans were submitted in ment. The school’s board of management will be June 2007 and it appeared initially that they were kept advised of developments when this examin- fine, but no feedback was forthcoming. About ation is complete. Under the national develop- three weeks ago, there were indications that the ment plan, a sum of \4.5 billion is assigned to chief architect had examined the plans and it the capital requirements of the primary and post- \ appeared that some issues had to be resolved. It primary sectors. Over 540 million will be spent has not yet been possible to identify what those on school buildings this year. The level of con- issues are. Anxiety is growing because we are struction alone in the primary and post-primary now nearing the time for enrolment for the next sectors in 2007 is such that it will deliver over 700 school year. We do not know, however, if the classrooms to provide permanent accommodation necessary accommodation will be available to for around 17,500 pupils. The progression of all large-scale building pro- allow for such future enrolment. It would be a jects from initial design stage through to construc- pity if the accommodation is not made available tion phase is considered on an ongoing basis in because the school has got off to a tremendous the context of the Department’s multi-annual start and there is great motivation within the school building and modernisation programme, in community to keep it going. I would appreciate which the main focus is to deliver school places an update on the situation together with a time- within rapidly developing areas. The progression frame as to when the permanent school building of Holy Trinity national school, as with all large- can be completed. scale projects, will be considered in this context. The Minister for Education and Science is com- Deputy Tony Killeen: I wish to thank Senator mitted to providing suitable, high-quality accom- Corrigan for giving me the opportunity of out- modation for the school at the earliest possible lining, on the Minister’s behalf, the position of date. the Department of Education and Science regarding the provision of a Holy Trinity national The Seanad adjourned at 7.35 p.m. until school at Sandyford, Dublin 18. It is proposed to 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 29 November 2007.