Interview “ Women make unique contributions all the time. ” Lieutenant General Chris Whitecross and Ret. Major General Simone Wilkie on female leaders in armed forces No. 2 | July 2020 The views expressed in Metis Interviews are those of the interviewees. They do not reflect the opinion of the Bundeswehr, the Federal Ministry of Defence, or the Bundeswehr University Munich. Metis Interview | No. 2 Female leaders in armed forces – Chris Whitecross & Simone Wilkie Interview Lieutenant General Chris Whitecross (CAN) and Ret. Major General Simone Wilkie (AUS) on female leaders in armed forces Oed | Source: flickr.com/photos/bundeswehrfoto/ / © Bundeswehr Fig. 1 The first German female medical officers on 1 October 1975 with Minister of Defence Georg Leber n a landmark ruling in 2000 the German armed forces were opened for women to serve in all branches. As of today, the proportion of women is at a good 12 per cent. This interview offers future female military leaders in the Bundeswehr encouragement Iand some perspective from two highly distinguished senior female military leaders, Retired Australian Major General Simone Wilkie and Canadian Lieutenant General Chris Whitecross. The interview was conducted online by Metis Director Prof. Dr. Carlo Masala in July 2020. A video recording is available on the Metis website. This transcript was slightly redacted. Masala is an international youth movement had been at University studying to What was your personal motivation that you’re probably aware of and it be a physical education teacher and for joining the armed forces and resonated with me. It resonated with someone had spoken to me about what is your experience overall? me in terms of the lifestyle, the cul- it, so I went along to the recruiting ture, the background, the structure agency. And like quite a lot of people Whitecross and the hierarchical way that they I joined for the sort of patriotic rea- First of all, I just finished 38 years of did business, and I just really wanted sons, for something that I thought service. I joined the military really to give it a go. I was at Queens Uni- that I could contribute not only to right from University. So, I pretty versity and I was walking down the the nation, but also to help people. much grew up in the military, from street, literally, I saw the recruiting But if I was to suggest it was a long the age of 19 right to today. But my centre and I walked in. And that was and detailed search and that I had motivation for joining military right 38 years ago. landed on my feet that would be at the beginning was that my father totally incorrect. Indeed, after about was military, my uncle was military, Wilkie three months in training to be an of- my grandfather had seen service, all To be really frank, I was incredi- ficer I disliked it so much that I tried of my brothers were in the reserves, bly naive when I joined the army. I to resign and return to University. and I liked what they personified. I didn’t have a particularly good un- I hadn’t told my parents, and when joined the Cadet Movement, which derstanding of what was involved. I the commanding officer rang my 3 Metis Interview | No. 2 Female leaders in armed forces – Chris Whitecross & Simone Wilkie father, he said: “ Look we can leave Whitecross her here or send her back to Ballarat. ” To which my father said: “ Leave I think a diversity of opinion her there, she will like it eventually. ” He was right, and I was completely leads to a better series of wrong. So it took me a little while to enjoy it. But my experiences were: it solutions to a problem. was incredibly challenging, physi- cally and mentally, so you really get to understand your own personal boundaries. You have an amazing opportunity to learn about people and about leadership. And particu- larly to learn through example, in Masala thinking outside the box and the like. both trying and not so trying circum- Do you consider female military But I think the strength here is a mil- stances. I’m a bit of an extrovert, so leadership to be different in any itary force of men and women, and I really enjoy being with people and way from male military leadership? it’s not just men and women, right, you certainly have plenty of opportu- Are there contributions that because gender is no longer binary, nities for do that in the military. women are better suited to make? it’s all about diversity and inclusive- The last point I would make is that ness. Because what it does for you in I think you’ll find your experiences at Whitecross the grander scheme of things in the the different rank levels can be quite I think it would be naive to say that utopian society is, it offers people a different. What you do as a young men and women are the same. I far better solution set. Since now you officer versus what you do at the op- mean, ideally we would like to think have a number of people with differ- erational level to what you can do at that we all do the same things and I ent backgrounds, different languages, the strategic level are quite different. think we probably come to the same different cultures, different ethnic- Sometimes you’re actually better in decisions in many ways, but we ities and they are coming together one level of leadership than you are come to them from different vantage to solve a problem. I think a diversity in others. Fortunately, I must have points. Men’s and women’s strengths of opinion leads to a better series of been OK to get to be a major general. and weaknesses are fundamentally solutions to a problem. So, are the But it’s a long way from where I start- different in many ways. We may not leadership attributes different? I think ed. You know: I thought I would be be as physically strong but we are tre- in many, many ways, they are the lucky to be a captain! So, my experi- mendously talented when it comes to same, such as the ability to commu- ences were generally very good. team building and doing things and nicate, intellectual, cognitive ability Women are All medical corps European Court More than 22.000 prohibited from careers are opened of Justice ruling female soldiers serve joining the military for women in the Bundeswehr All branches are except for the opened to female Bundeswehr’s civilian volunteers administration 1955 1975 1991 1996 2000 2001 2019 First female medical Tanja Kreil applies for Women cannot be officers (Fig. 1) becoming a soldier drafted Fig. 2 The path to equality. | Data source: Bundeswehr 4 Metis Interview | No. 2 Female leaders in armed forces – Chris Whitecross & Simone Wilkie and all those sorts of things. But ulti- that women can have more than men children behind. ” And I had the im- mately it’s about bringing a disparate make them more effective. pression that I was almost allowed group of people together and then The last point I would make is that to express that opinion, whereas my having them come to a shared value I think sometimes women, when they male counterparts were not. system and a shared common goal start out as young leaders, can tend But by increasing the number and then moving toward that. I think to follow the rules a little too pre- of men and women in a group, the men and women may come about scriptively. I used to be a bit like that conversations change and I think the that in different ways, but by putting and now I subscribe to the “rules are personality changes. And it’s not any women and men together you are for fools and the guidance of wise different in terms of the military capa- going to get a far better solution. old chicks.” Which means you work bility but what it does is it brings peo- out when the rules are appropriate ple closer together and it shows real Wilkie and when they’re not appropriate. sympathy for what you have left be- I think part of that goes to the theory And the more rank you get, the more hind and all that kind of stuff. That’s around leadership. There are certain- chance you have to stand next to the certainly on a personal note. ly different leadership styles and dif- big, hairy, difficult questions and so, if But in terms of our engagement ferent leadership attributes. I would you’ve learned to be more adaptable with the local population, absolute- suggest that leadership 101 remains and not always follow those rules, ly. When I was in Afghanistan, the the same. For me that’s about three then potentially your leadership style culture didn’t necessarily encourage things which is setting the direction, will be highly effective in the different women speaking to men in terms of setting the expectations and setting environments that you could be find- strangers, but in the Canadian con- the environment. ing yourself in. text where we had female combat I think a lot of women can lead team leaders, female infantry officers, somewhat differently to men. Even artillery and armoured officers, they said, there are different approaches Masala could actually go into a communi- to leadership amongst women as In your deployments abroad, did ty and speak to the men and the well.