Chris Whitecross & Simone Wilkie

Interview “ Women make unique contributions all the time. ”

Lieutenant General Chris Whitecross and Ret. Major General Simone Wilkie on female leaders in armed forces No. 2 | July 2020

The views expressed in Metis Interviews are those of the interviewees. They do not reflect the opinion of the Bundeswehr, the Federal Ministry of Defence, or the Bundeswehr University Munich.

Metis Interview | No. 2 Female leaders in armed forces – Chris Whitecross & Simone Wilkie

Interview Lieutenant General Chris Whitecross (CAN) and Ret. Major General Simone Wilkie (AUS) on female leaders in armed forces Oed | Source: flickr.com/photos/bundeswehrfoto/ / © Bundeswehr Fig. 1 The first German female medical officers on 1 October 1975 with Minister of Defence Georg Leber

n a landmark ruling in 2000 the German armed forces were opened for women to serve in all branches. As of today, the proportion of women is at a good 12 per cent. This interview offers future female military leaders in the Bundeswehr encouragement Iand some perspective from two highly distinguished senior female military leaders, Retired Australian Major General Simone Wilkie and Canadian Lieutenant General Chris Whitecross. The interview was conducted online by Metis Director Prof. Dr. Carlo Masala in July 2020. A video recording is available on the Metis website. This transcript was slightly redacted.

Masala is an international youth movement had been at University studying to What was your personal motivation that you’re probably aware of and it be a physical education teacher and for joining the armed forces and resonated with me. It resonated with someone had spoken to me about what is your experience overall? me in terms of the lifestyle, the cul- it, so I went along to the recruiting ture, the background, the structure agency. And like quite a lot of people Whitecross and the hierarchical way that they I joined for the sort of patriotic rea- First of all, I just finished 38 years of did business, and I just really wanted sons, for something that I thought service. I joined the military really to give it a go. I was at Queens Uni- that I could contribute not only to right from University. So, I pretty versity and I was walking down the the nation, but also to help people. much grew up in the military, from street, literally, I saw the recruiting But if I was to suggest it was a long the age of 19 right to today. But my centre and I walked in. And that was and detailed search and that I had motivation for joining military right 38 years ago. landed on my feet that would be at the beginning was that my father totally incorrect. Indeed, after about was military, my uncle was military, Wilkie three months in training to be an of- my grandfather had seen service, all To be really frank, I was incredi- ficer I disliked it so much that I tried of my brothers were in the reserves, bly naive when I joined the army. I to resign and return to University. and I liked what they personified. I didn’t have a particularly good un- I hadn’t told my parents, and when joined the Cadet Movement, which derstanding of what was involved. I the commanding officer rang my

3 Metis Interview | No. 2 Female leaders in armed forces – Chris Whitecross & Simone Wilkie

father, he said: “ Look we can leave Whitecross her here or send her back to Ballarat. ” To which my father said: “ Leave I think a diversity of opinion her there, she will like it eventually. ” He was right, and I was completely leads to a better series of wrong. So it took me a little while to enjoy it. But my experiences were: it solutions to a problem. was incredibly challenging, physically and mentally, so you really get to understand your own personal boundaries. You have an amazing opportunity to learn about people and about leadership. And particularly to learn through example, in Masala thinking outside the box and the like. both trying and not so trying circum- Do you consider female military But I think the strength here is a mil- stances. I’m a bit of an extrovert, so leadership to be different in any itary force of men and women, and I really enjoy being with people and way from male military leadership? it’s not just men and women, right, you certainly have plenty of opportu- Are there contributions that because gender is no longer binary, nities for do that in the military. women are better suited to make? it’s all about diversity and inclusive- The last point I would make is that ness. Because what it does for you in I think you’ll find your experiences at Whitecross the grander scheme of things in the the different rank levels can be quite I think it would be naive to say that utopian society is, it offers people a different. What you do as a young men and women are the same. I far better solution set. Since now you officer versus what you do at the op- mean, ideally we would like to think have a number of people with differ- erational level to what you can do at that we all do the same things and I ent backgrounds, different languages, the strategic level are quite different. think we probably come to the same different cultures, different ethnic- Sometimes you’re actually better in decisions in many ways, but we ities and they are coming together one level of leadership than you are come to them from different vantage to solve a problem. I think a diversity in others. Fortunately, I must have points. Men’s and women’s strengths of opinion leads to a better series of been OK to get to be a major general. and weaknesses are fundamentally solutions to a problem. So, are the But it’s a long way from where I start- different in many ways. We may not leadership attributes different? I think ed. You know: I thought I would be be as physically strong but we are tre- in many, many ways, they are the lucky to be a captain! So, my experi- mendously talented when it comes to same, such as the ability to commu- ences were generally very good. team building and doing things and nicate, intellectual, cognitive ability

Women are All medical corps European Court More than 22.000 prohibited from careers are opened of Justice ruling female soldiers serve joining the military for women in the Bundeswehr All branches are except for the opened to female Bundeswehr’s civilian volunteers administration

1955 1975 1991 1996 2000 2001 2019

First female medical Tanja Kreil applies for Women cannot be officers (Fig. 1) becoming a soldier drafted

Fig. 2 The path to equality. | Data source: Bundeswehr

4 Metis Interview | No. 2 Female leaders in armed forces – Chris Whitecross & Simone Wilkie

and all those sorts of things. But ulti- that women can have more than men children behind. ” And I had the im- mately it’s about bringing a disparate make them more effective. pression that I was almost allowed group of people together and then The last point I would make is that to express that opinion, whereas my having them come to a shared value I think sometimes women, when they male counterparts were not. system and a shared common goal start out as young leaders, can tend But by increasing the number and then moving toward that. I think to follow the rules a little too pre- of men and women in a group, the men and women may come about scriptively. I used to be a bit like that conversations change and I think the that in different ways, but by putting and now I subscribe to the “rules are personality changes. And it’s not any women and men together you are for fools and the guidance of wise different in terms of the military capa- going to get a far better solution. old chicks.” Which means you work bility but what it does is it brings peo- out when the rules are appropriate ple closer together and it shows real Wilkie and when they’re not appropriate. sympathy for what you have left be- I think part of that goes to the theory And the more rank you get, the more hind and all that kind of stuff. That’s around leadership. There are certain- chance you have to stand next to the certainly on a personal note. ly different leadership styles and dif- big, hairy, difficult questions and so, if But in terms of our engagement ferent leadership attributes. I would you’ve learned to be more adaptable with the local population, absolute- suggest that leadership 101 remains and not always follow those rules, ly. When I was in Afghanistan, the the same. For me that’s about three then potentially your leadership style culture didn’t necessarily encourage things which is setting the direction, will be highly effective in the different women speaking to men in terms of setting the expectations and setting environments that you could be find- strangers, but in the Canadian con- the environment. ing yourself in. text where we had female combat I think a lot of women can lead team leaders, female infantry officers, somewhat differently to men. Even artillery and armoured officers, they said, there are different approaches Masala could actually go into a communi- to leadership amongst women as In your deployments abroad, did ty and speak to the men and the well. Like one of my best friends, who your gender make a difference? women. They could speak to the men, is a Brigadier, has a completely differ- I mean for instance regarding your because the men didn’t feel necessar- ent leadership style to mine, but still contact with the local population? ily that the women were all that much a very effective one. What I would say more different. But they certainly had is that women are much better at the Whitecross an avenue to speak to the women in C-words. They’re good at compassion I would say absolutely, and I would the community. And so they were and consensus and collaboration and say even to the units as well. Let me getting a sense of the human cost, of cooperation. There tends to be a little break that down a little bit. I think to the decisions that were being made. more empathy. So perhaps what they have men and women in the units, They could get human intelligence, can bring to leadership roles some- it lends a different personality to they could understand the social times that not all men do, and I’m not that units’ structure. Let me use an fabric of the communities and they suggesting that men aren’t good lis- example: In a unit you have moth- could really get a sense of where the teners, but it’s perhaps a more demo- ers and fathers, of course, and I can battle is going. They could embrace cratic style of leadership with people remember going to Afghanistan or the community a lot more I think in being more inclusive. even Bosnia and somebody saying to many ways. And it’s no different than And of course, one of the things me: “ It must be terrible to leave your if someone in your unit speaks the that you can’t see is cognitive diver- children behind as a mother. ” And local language. So, having men and sity. You can see gender diversity and my comment was: “ You know what: women in an organisation I think, it’s race diversity. And perhaps if women It is terrible as a parent to leave your such a force enabler. are being socialised differently, they think about things differently and potentially lead in different ways. I think if you look across business, most Wilkie boards in Australia that have women are more successful than the ones A lot of the locals felt far less that only include men. There’s a lot of research out there that suggests threatened by having women that some of those leadership traits, coming to talk to them and finding out what their issues were.

5 Metis Interview | No. 2 Female leaders in armed forces – Chris Whitecross & Simone Wilkie

Fig. 3 Germany 2020: Female soldiers in uniform have become a common sight.

6 Female leadersinarmedforces –ChrisWhitecross &SimoneWilkie 7 Metis Interview |No. Interview Metis 2

Wilkie Certainly, when I was in Afghani- Masala It was different in each of the lo- stan as the National Commander for According to your experience cations that I went to. When I was all of our Australian troops, I was reg- abroad, is there a unique in Cambodia in the early 90s for ularly meeting with the Minister for contribution that only women example, the Pakistani battalion Defence and a raft of male leaders can make to peacekeeping was providing defensive support from governments and from other operations? to the signallers. I was the adjutant countries and I didn’t have any is- in one of the remote locations and sues at that stage. So, I suppose it Whitecross went to visit our signallers. They depends, quite frankly, on the cir- I mean for a whole bunch of reasons, had been having some problems cumstances. That said, in the local I am sure that you’re aware of, the with the Pakistani soldiers. So they area, the female engagement teams, obvious one is that the non-mili- asked me to go and represent them which we employed from Australia, tary, the people on the ground that and have a discussion. I said sure. they were highly effective with the are affected by the hostilities: the I turned up with a male sergeant locals. And I think part of the secret vulnerable people – predominantly and they were not interested in lis- sauce for that is that a lot of the lo- women, children and the elderly – tening to me even though I was a cals felt far less threatened by hav- are more apt to go see a woman in captain. So I learned pretty quickly ing women coming to talk to them uniform than a man. They could be that I needed to pass on my points and finding out what their issues frightened, they could be embar- through the male sergeant. Now were. They were more forthcoming rassed and a whole slew of other that’s a cultural issue, and this is in discussing or even having the op- reasons. So, it’s about having that one of the key areas I think that we portunity to engage with military ability to be able to speak to some- need to be cognisant of when you members. And of course, in some one in uniform and to know that go on deployments. What is the en- countries where you go to, they are their concerns are coming into the vironment that you are going into? war-torn, people have been terrified. decision-making construct of the It could be very different to the The last thing they really want to do operational planning. country that you come from. How is sit down and talk with male sol- Let me use an example: I am an en- much culturally aware are you, how diers. So I think there can be some gineer, right. Engineers and bridges is do you adapt your style and your really interesting opportunities from a great example. Say there is a free- processes? that perspective. dom of movement issue in the local

12.30 %

10.74 %

9.00 %

4.53 %

1.43 % 0.77 % 0.00 % 0.20 %

1975 1985 1995 2000 2005 2010 2015 2019

Fig. 4 Percentage of female Bundeswehr soldiers from 1975 – 2019 as of 1/2020 (values rounded). | Data source: SOWI; Bundeswehr; Deutscher Bundestag

8 Metis Interview | No. 2 Female leaders in armed forces – Chris Whitecross & Simone Wilkie

community. If we only dealt with we currently have an Australian mil- incredibly useful. But sometimes the operational necessities of being itary policewoman in Cyprus. Some- those styles have to be evaluated able to create a bridge in an area times I think those less assertive differently. When is the most appro- that would allow the military forc- leadership styles can be very valu- priate time to be a caretaker or taking es to go do what they needed to do, that would not necessarily meet the needs of the community. So by being able to engage with the community, Whitecross being able to speak to the vulnerable populations, to the women, to Personally, I joined the mili- the mothers, to the children even and to understand where they need tary because I wanted to do that particular bridge to be built so that they can go to the medical clin- something that was above me, ics, they can go to do the shopping, they can go to the mosque or to their I like to say: “service before self.” churches, the schools, all those sort of things, that can be put into the operational planning. That actually leads to better engagement with the local population, better relationships with them. A whole slew of positive attributes come out just from that one little able in an environment where peo- charge? In the toxic environment of decision-making because we engage ple have been traumatised. Or living peacekeeping operations, you need the local community. through incredibly difficult circum- to lead with empathy. Perhaps there I would say that in many ways stances. Some of those democratic is a natural advantage for women. It’s women who are afraid, having leadership styles and tendencies I difficult because you cannot general- that ability to go speak to another talked about before, I think can be ise. I know some women who have no woman, particularly empathy whatsoev- a woman in uniform, er. So, each to their or even a woman own circumstances. in uniform who has some authority, I think will give them Masala the ability to feel as Based on your though their voices experience, how Soldiers Officers are being heard and 5.389 5.837 can the military that they are going 24 % 26 % inspire young to be taken care of. women to join and to serve? Wilkie I think women make Whitecross unique contribu- Non-commissioned Inspiring is an in- tions all the time. Officers (NCO) teresting word, be- But of course, there without Portepee cause in many ways Non-commissioned are factors that sit 3.522 it’s self-motivating, 15 % Officers (NCO) around that social- with Portepee right? Personally, I isation piece that I 7.949 joined the military was talking about 35 % because I wanted to before. To the best do something that of my knowledge, was above me, I like we have had two to say: “service be- female generals fore self.” This might running UN Peace- Fig. 5 Distribution of ranks amongst female Bundeswehr soldiers sound a little bit (including candidates) as of 1/2020. | Data source: Bundeswehr keeping missions, trite, but I wanted

9 Metis Interview | No. 2 Female leaders in armed forces – Chris Whitecross & Simone Wilkie

to serve my county, I wanted to do women. Now that wasn’t necessar- think they “can’t be what they can’t good. I wanted to go into areas of the ily the case when I first joined. But I see“. I personally dislike that say- world where I knew that I could effect knew that I could do something that ing. I think if that was the case we change or act as a sort of positive in- would make me feel good about my- wouldn’t have Angela Merkel and a fluence. Inspiration, it comes from the self and about my country in the con- raft of other wonderful women who person. To inspire people to join the struct that I was at. Now, militaries all have led across all sorts of different military, first of all you have to have over the world are opening up more areas because they have been the trailblazers. But it needs to be visible. Great campaigns, by advertising, ex- cellent recruiting campaigns. We’ve Wilkie tried all sorts of different campaigns in Australia. Look, it is more diffi- “ What normally happens is: cult to attract women compared to men because it’s a very physical role, We design the system for men and then we particularly in the army and it does include combat, which doesn’t ap- try and retrofit it for women as opposed to peal to a lot of girls. They certainly haven’t been socialised at home to design it specifically for women. We’re only be brought up like that. And it can be quite competitive. Part of it is break- just starting to do that in the Australian ing down the stigma and the sort of, what I would call the “Hollywood Army for some of our combat equipment. B-grade movie versions” of what people think military service is and And we’ve had women in roles like the how that impacts women. So I would advise to send people one I did in Cambodia for nearly 30 years. around to the schools, share your stories, be transparent about what So hopefully you’ll be faster than us. ” the opportunities are. Particularly so that you can get those experienced leading at a much earlier age. Once you become an officer or an NCO 1, then you can succeed in just about any other organisation, certainly strong leadership, you need to be and more occupations to women. in Australia, and I know that to be able to go out there, you need to be And we need to get that message out. true in many other countries. If we able to communicate: What does the It’s not just about being an infanteer are talking about leadership, why military do for the construct of socie- or being a fighter pilot, it’s also about not use that as one of the real TICE ty? What would that give you in terms being a dentist or a lawyer or an en- tests 2 for people. If you want to have of personal satisfaction and personal gineer or a vehicle tech. The options a career this is a great opportunity awareness? And also, to really speak are numerous. So it’s education, it’s for you to start. Invariably, if you can about the opportunities that being inspiring leadership and it’s engage- get people to join much like myself, a military member will give you. And ment at all levels of society. they will stay. And then, if you’re from that you hope that you garner fortunate, the ones who really were enough that the people feel inspired Wilkie not suited because they hadn’t done themselves to be able to actually take I think there’s plenty of ways we enough research or they just realised that one step to learn a little bit more can do that. I would start with sim- later on it wasn’t what they thought about it and to possibly sign up for ple things like sending role models it would be, they will self-select not it. I think there is a fallacy out there to schools. Some young women to be there. around the world, particularly in western nations, where women don’t really understand where they fit in the military construct. And that’s un- 1 NCO = non-commissioned officer. fortunate. In the Canadian construct, of course, all occupations are open to 2 TICE test = test of interpersonal competence for employment.

10 Metis Interview | No. 2 Female leaders in armed forces – Chris Whitecross & Simone Wilkie

The final point I would make is I Whitecross think it’s great if you can mentor people through that recruiting process Absolutely the number one and also talk about the systems that you have in place to assist people to is humility, is knowing that succeed once they have enlisted. Get rid of some of those terrible views you’re just a part of a very large that people have about what the ini- tial training is because that puts a lot organisation that is meant to of people off. You have about 12 per cent women in the armed forces in be doing good. Germany, I think, and the Australian Army had 12 per cent for a long time. We had to do a concerted recruitment campaign and a lot of work on reten- tion programmes to get up over the 16 but the rewards are amazing. – So it’s attractive or a bit more sexy for peo- or 17 per cent. Yes, it takes a lot of effort worth making ourselves a little more ple to come and join the army.

0 500 1.000 1.500 2.000 2.500 3.000 3.500 4.000 4.500 5.000 5.500 6.000 6.500 7.000 7.500 8.000

Cyber & Information Domain Service 1.408 | 6 %

Navy 1.678 7 %

Ministry & Administration 1.991 9 %

Air Force 2.342 10 %

Joint Support Service 2.907 13 %

Army 4.397 19 %

Medical Corps 8.121 36 %

0 500 1.000 1.500 2.000 2.500 3.000 3.500 4.000 4.500 5.000 5.500 6.000 6.500 7.000 7.500 8.000

Fig. 6 German female soldiers categorized by service / organisational area as of 1/2020. | Data source: Bundeswehr

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Masala communication and humility are two respect you as a leader. It’s a tricky What is the single most important of the biggest traits that I would re- thing to find out where your natural advice you would share with young ally impress upon people going into position is as a woman leader in what female officers and soldiers today? military service. is generally a masculine sort of ag- gressive leadership Whitecross environment. There I like to think that has certainly been there are a couple research by a lot of of attributes that, Wilkie different organisa- regardless if you’re tions, including the a man or a woman, Plenty of blokes British Psychological that will do you well Society that goes to in a military envi- are faking it until this issue. If you are ronment, and in fact hard-nosed like that any environment. they make it. So I think you are less likeable I would say that and generally less number one, abso- women can do the successful. Not that lutely the number leadership is about one is humility, is same. being liked, but it is knowing that you’re about setting stand- just a part of a very ards, maintaining large organisation discipline and lead- that is meant to be ing from the front. doing good. And I think those char- your part is impor- acteristics need to tant, it’s fundamental to the success of Wilkie be at balance. For women this some- the mission, but you are really a small Ah look, I’m a redhead so I cannot just times is potentially more difficult than part of the greater whole. I think hu- have one single piece of advice. How for men. mility is particularly underrated and about I have one with three parts? And then the last point I would that we really need to impress that make is: there is nothing more beauti- upon many of our young leaders and Masala ful than a confident woman. As a lead- young members not just at the mili- Okay, fine. er, learn to accept that you are going tary but other organisations as well. to make mistakes. Deal with when Humility is a big one. Wilkie things don’t go right. Don’t overthink But I think the ability to commu- The first part would be: You have got them. And crack on, because I can tell nicate and I’m not just talking about to be professionally competent. And you: plenty of other blokes are faking reading or writing or social networks you need to understand your profes- it until they make it. So I think women and all that, but the ability to listen to sion. You need to understand all of can do the same. people in a very rigorous way so that the aspects, the operational combat you truly get the sense of what they part. You can’t just be a communica- are saying. And that you are able to tor and not understand the broader Masala mirror that back. And then you are workings of the army, if you intend to Thank you so much for taking able to address the issues on a very be promoted. your time to do this interview fundamental and personal basis. The I think as a female officer, I like to with us. It was really informative. ability to communicate, to under- call it: "maintaining the femininity I wish you a very pleasant stand who your audience is and to tightrope". You are sort of balancing day, thank you very much! really be able to interpret whether between being a woman but being or not your message is getting out. accepted as a leader, and that can be Whitecross Because it is one thing to tell people really difficult when you first start out. Thank you, my pleasure. to do something but if they don’t be- But for those women who think it’s a lieve it, they don’t understand it and good idea to act like a man and talk Wilkie they can’t back it, it’s very difficult for like a man and swear and whatever, Thank you and I hope I didn’t speak them to rise to the occasion that you they will probably do what you have too fast. need as a military leader. I would say asked people to do, but they will not

12 Metis Interview | No. 2 Female leaders in armed forces – Chris Whitecross & Simone Wilkie

Interviewees

Lieutenant General Chris Whitecross (CAN) entered service in 1982. Her career took her around the globe, including postings in former Yugoslavia, where she performed duties for the United Nations Protection Force, and in Afghanistan, where she was awarded the United States Defense Meritorious Service Medal for her service at ISAF headquarters. She assumed her current duties, as Commandant of the NATO Defense College in Rome, in November 2016.

Ret. Major General Simone Louise Wilkie (AUS) entered service in 1983. Notable highlights of her long career include a posting as Assistant Chief of Staff to United States General David Petraeus during the Iraq War 2007 and as Australian Deputy National Commander in the War in Afghanistan in 2011 and 2012. She served as Commander of the Australian Defence College from 2013 to the end of her service in 2018.

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Publisher Metis Institute for Strategy and Foresight Bundeswehr University Munich metis.unibw.de

Interview conducted by Prof. Dr. Carlo Masala [email protected]

Creative Director Christoph Ph. Nick, M. A. c-studios.net

Title image "Sgt. Lia Ricathalia, UNIFIL’s Indonesian peacekeeper, at a Blue Line patrol post near Fatima Gate in Kafer Kela, South Lebanon. October 9th, 2012." Photo by Pasqual Gorriz / UNIFIL Source: https://www.flickr.com/ photos/unpeacekeeping/

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