Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 24 JULY 1918

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1190 Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. conduct a game called 'House' at the coming Exhibition, when the National A.-sociation and the \Var Council have \VEDXESDAY, 24 JULY, 1918. both given their sanction thereto? "2. Is he aware that the male mem­ bers of this particular returned 8oldier's The SPEAKER (Hon. W. McCormack, Cairns) family, consisting of a father and four took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock. sons have all enlisted and that two have retu~ned home permanently disabled? QUESTIO~S. "3. Is he aware that the object for raising money by the proposed game of PROGRESS OF NORTH COAST LIXE. skill is to build a home for those of the familv that return and the invalid ::\elr. SMITH (.'firtckay) asked the Secretary for Railways- rr.other? " 1. How many men are employed on "4. Will he state his method of r0ason­ the following sections of the North Coast ing in granting permits for gambling to line :-(a) Kelvin Grove· to St. Law· Labour organisations for party funds, rence; (b) Marlborough to St. Lawrence; and at the same time, refusing a re­ (c) Mackay to Midge Point? tur~ed soldier .a permit for the laudable object mentioned? " 2. How many sections of this line are now under construction? " 5. Will he under the circumstances " 3. Can he give the House any idea reconsider his decision?" whe'n railway corr,munication between :Vlackay and Rockhampton will be estab­ HoN. W. N. GILLIES replied- lished?" " 1. Permits of this nature are not The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS granted to an individual in cases where (Hon. J. A. Fihelly, Paddington) replied­ the proceeds are entirely for the perconal " 1. (a) 85; (b) 195; (c) 166 benefit of such individual. " 2. Three sections, and timber bemg "2. No. procured for a fourth. "3.. No. " 3. Two years-if full amount of mon<'Y required is made available" "4. Every application ,,, dealt with on its merits. NoTE.-Question 1 (c). Mackay to Midge Point. Midge Point is half-way "5. See ~o. 4." between Mackav and Bowen. The section-Proserpine to Midge Point­ has also been started, and twenty­ \YAR S.\nxas GRot:PS D< SrATE Scnoor.s. eight men employed. :V1r. ELPHIXS'l'ONE asked the Sc~retary CLAnrs FOR CmrPENSATION eNDER INDL:STRIAL for Public Instruction- DISEASES .\CT. " In C'onnoction with the disecn1tinu­ :VIr. SMITH asked the Assistant Minister ance of the svstern of '"ar f',J,ving ') group:; for Justice- in State sch~ols, will he state- " How many claims for compC>mation " 1. In what sense can the contribu­ have been lodge·d under the Industrial tions of the children, \' hich are 1 s withhold from the Queensland Turf Club in order to do therr httle b1t to help the power to race at Ascot Racecourse? win the war? " 2. If so, will he refuse to allow the Queensland Turf Club to hold any " 5. \Vhat reliable evidences of steal­ further race meetings until the Press are in"' have come under his notice, and tht' allowed to attend all racini>; inquiries nu"mber of such alleged offence0? and appeals?" · "6. Is he aware that State school children have for months past been Hox. W. N. GILLIES replied- adopting the means that he complain& " 1. Not under the existing law. of to raise money to spend at Lrberty "2. See No. 1." Fairs with their gambling attractions?

REF1:SAL OF PER1fiSSIOX TO RETGRNED SOLDIER " 7. Seeing that war savings certifi­ TO CONDUCT GA11E. cates cannot under any circumstances be considered as ' gifts,' unless, of course, :Vlr. ELPHINSTONE (O:rley) asked the the Commonwealth repudiates its war Assistant Minister for Justice- financial obligations. will he reconsider· " 1. On what grounds has he refused his decision to discontinue the scheme permission to a returned soldier to in the State schools?" Questions. [24 JULY.] Papers. 1191

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­ " 2 to 4. Produce generally is pur­ STRCCTION (Hon. H. F. Hardacre, chase-d by each room locally. ·c p to the Lcichhar

f'HARGES _\T RAILWAY REFRE~'H'\IEXT·R001IS. The SECRETARY FOR AGRIC"CLTURE (Hon. \Y. Lennon, Herb,rt) replied- Mr. BEBBINGTON asked the Secretarv " It all depends on when the Estimates for Railways- - are reached." (Laughter.) " 1. Is the statement that the Railway Refreshment Rooms Department pur­ ANNUAL REPORT OF RAILWAY DEPARDIENT. chase buJ?-S at 7~d. per dozen, and charge the pubhc 3s. per dozen, correct ; if so, :\Ir. CORRER (Burnctt) asked the Secre­ is not over 300 per cent. profit too much tary for Railways. without notice- and profiteering? " When might we expect to see the report of his department?" " 2. Does the Refreshment Rooms De­ partment purchase their produce require­ The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS ments through the State Produce replied- Agency ; if so, do they make as much " The hon. member should know that profit on produce and fowls as on buns? it is not compiled until the end of Octo­ " 3. If the requirements are purchase-d ber, I think." through the State Produce Agency, are Mr. CORSER: You think? they purchased at auction or sent to private orders? The SECRETARY FOR RAILW.\YS: "4. Is not the principle of the State I am almost sure. vVhat do you think? Produce Agency supplying Governrr.ent (Laughter.) departments the same as produce agents PAPERS. purchasing farmers' produce for their own homes or stores? The following papers, laid on the table, " 5. Is he aware 6d. per box is charged were ordered to be printed:- for matches at these rooms?" Annual report of the Benevolent "Asylum, Dunwich, for thc year 1917. The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS Return to an Order relative to soldier replied- -·cttlcment, made by the House, on " 1. No; that is not the purchasing motion of Mr. ::\1acartney. on 2nd price. Threepence is the .t.,ariff charge July. for buns, but the department adds butter. Return to an Order relative to cattle sold There is no profiteering, and the hon. and transferred from State stations, member should know that rent. staff, North Queensland, rr.ade by the and other charges must be a part of House. on motion of Mr. ]\:!organ, on f!Yery busine:;s. lOth July_ 1192 Land Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill (Ko. 3).

PATRIOTIC FUNDS ADMINISTRATIO~ intr~ucti~n of legislation for the purpose of ACT AMEND::VIENT BILL. d.ealmg wtth nending cases has never been regarded as strictly honest legislation, nor INITIATION IN COMMITTEE. has it been viewed as fair legislation, and (:lir. JJertram, N:arec, in the chair.) from that point of view I think that the introduction of this Bill is undesirable. The PRE::YHER (Hon. T .•J. Ryan, Barcoo). in Inoving-- The SECRETARY FOR P'GBLIC LANDS : If it is " That it is desirable that a Bill be just, it is fair. introduce·d to amend the Patriotic Fuuds Mr. MACARTNEY: The Bill takes an Administration Act of 1916 in certain extraordinary form. The title is- particulars,'· " A Bill to declare more clearlv the said that he presumed hon. members would meaning and intent of section 125 of the not expect him to go over the material he Land Act of 1910, and for that purpose harl mentioned on the previous day. There to a mend the s:ti·d section in C<>rtain WM nothing else to be done except that he particula ,..,." would place the Bill on the table of tho Reading the title of the Bill, one wotlld be Hou"' dircctlv, and hon. members would forced to the conclusion that all it did was then have an ~pportunity of reading it. to declare more clearly the meaning and Hox. W. H. BARNES (Bulimba) asked intenl of the section on an explained am­ whether they could accept an assurance that biguity. I must confe,s that I have been there was nothing· else in the Bill except unuble to discover the ambiguity about what the Premier explained on the previous \vhich the hon. member has said so much, evening? and I find, on looking through the Bill, that it appears to me to E'laborate and to extend The PRE:\IIIER: The Bill was so short the ]uovisions of section 125, which lay down that he could read every word of it. He had for the guidance of the court the basis or not given every word that was in it, but h'2 prinr·iple; upon which it is directed to assess had givf'n the substance of it. the rent. \Ve find thut subclause (2) of the Question put and passed. declaratory proYision is to th" effoet- The House resumed. The CHAIR:.VIAX re· " that the true meaning and intent of parted that the Committee had come to a the said section one hundred and t)Venty­ resolution, \\·hich wa' agreed to by the five is and has alwavs heen as set fo;·th House. in the said section as hereby amended. and accordingly the amendments hereby FIRST READING. made in the said section shall be deemed On the motion of the PRE::VUER, the Dill to have bet>n made therein at the date was rc'ad a first time; and the second reading of the passing of the principal Act." made an Order of the Day for to-morrow. Well, now, if this Bill is intended to remove an ambiguity, if it is not intended to add neY>. positions to the principles upon which LAKIJ ACT AMEKD::YIEKT BILL (Ko. 3). the Land Court is hereafter to act, it might perhaps, from one point of view, be taken SECO:>D READING-RESL:MPTION OF DEBATE. that this declaratory provision is reasonable or unreasonable, but I say in the circum­ Mr. 2\IIACART~EY (ToowGng): \Vhen stances which we find obtaining in respect this Bill was first mentioned by the Secre· to this Bill that it is an immoral and dis­ tary for Public Lands, I understood him to honorable provision. say that the object of the Bill was to remove The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : You an ambiguity which was contained in section will explain the reason for saying that, of 125 of the' Land Act of 1910. I aske-d the course? hon. member on th<1t occasion to indicate the nature of the ambiguity, and the hon. Mr. MACARTNEY: I shall. It is not member had some little difficulty in furnish­ so \"ery long ago-in justification of that ing th0 Hom'e with the information. I aiso n mz,rk-since an Income Tax Bill was intra· asked th0 hon. member if the Bill could be duced bv the Government now occupying the t~ken to have ·my application to any par­ Treasury benches, and a declaratory provi­ twular case. because it struck me that, owing sion was there included which operated to to the peculiar title of the Bill, such might catch a case or dispute then pending between be the c:1se. The hon. member was good the South Brisbane Gas Company and the enough last night to correct a statement that Income Tax Commissioner. Of course, I he had previously made, and to admit that may say that the House was not particularly a case was pending in which the construction taken into the confidence of the Government of tlw statute arose. as to what the reason for that declaratOTy The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: :\Yo; it provision was, but since the Act was passed was wvther Nse altogether that promp,ed the question came up for litigation before me to haw this Bill introduced. th SECREHRY FOR PUBLIC L.U\DS: That is legislation theretofore existing. so. The SECRETARY FOR P'CBLIC LANDS : There· . Mr. :YIACARTNEY: A case which was fore it did not interfere with the courts? affect0d by this particular Bill, although llw hon. rn<>mbcr had not that case in his mind Nir. MACARTNEY: And therefore it was when he introduced the Bill? not necessary for the court to give judgment cm that particular declaratory provision, But The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Ko. i" delivering the ju·dg-ment of the court, His Mr. J,L\C' ARTC'\EY: I am content to Honour Mr. Justice Shand said- accept the hon. memher's statement in that " We are glad to be able to come to respect, but I should like to say that the this conclusion, because, if we were forced [Hon. T. J. Ryan. Land Act [24 JULY.) Amendment Bill (No. 3). 1193

to come to a contrary conclusion, we (a) The quality and fitness of the 'hould, we fear, be compelled to decide land for grazing purposes." that the Commissioner's right to succeed Surely that statement is quite clear enough. depended on the provisions of an Act (b) The number of stock which it of Parliament for which, so far as we may reasonably be expected to carry have been able to discover, and as we in average seasons; are glad to believe, no precedent could (c) The distance of the holding from be found in the statute-book of any other railway or water carriage; British community; that was to say an Act of Parliament which made a tax (d) The natural supply of water, and payable in respect of past transactions, the facilities for the raising or storage not otherwise _taxable, by falsely de­ of water; claring that previous enactments had (e) The amount which experienced always meant something which they ne;-er persons would be willing to pay for n1eant." land of similar quality in the same neighbourhood; and Kow. that is the deliberate judgment of the Full Court of Queensland, as delivered by (f) And other matters which, in the His Honour Mr. Justice Shand, and I say opinion of the court, affect the rental that the clause in this Bill has a distinct Yatue of the land." ar.alogy to the section in the Act commented Surely there is in that section all the ele­ upon in that judgment. Now, there is no ments which a court, having a full knowledge room in my opinion-and we are all entitled of land legislation and natural conditions, to express our opinions here-for saying that could proceed to lay down. an ambiguity exists such ,as is indicated by The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Of the amendments which are proposed in this course, it could ; that is so if the proviso Bill, and it would have been verv much was out. more honest, very rr. uch more str~ightfor­ ward, if a Bill had been intro-dnced for the ::\Ir. :MACARTNEY: Then the proYiso purpose of amE'nding the section in the C'Olllf'S 111- direction indicated on the straightout basis " Provided that in determining the rent that thC' Government were prepared to repu­ rco·ard shall not be had to any increase diate their contract with the lessee' to that in o the yalue of t~e holding attributable extent for the good Government of the State, to 1n1proven1ents. perhap. It would have been at least 1\ow. that is the proYiso particularly dis­ straightforward and a fair way to do it. cussed in 1905. and, I might also add, very fullv discus~ed in 1910. It is a little signifi­ The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA~Df' : And cant, I mirrht remark just in passing, to find what would you think if the lessee wanted that the. similar proviso which appeared in to repudiate 'his obligation, which he does? sub"'ction (2) .of the section is not proposed Mr. MACARTKEY: I am dealing with to be al\('red. Just why the difference should one thing at a time. I -do not think for a b2 was not explainPd by the hon. gentleman. monwnt that the hon. member would inten­ Subsection (2) deals with perpetual lease tionn liy do a thing savouring of dishonesty. selec·tion or perpetual lm;se prickly-pear I beli- ve that the hon. member's actions are selection.. The prC?':iso ;vhich th~ gelWl. And the hon o-ethor-that is. the proYiso the amendment member. in dealing with the history of the ~f which we arc discussing this afternoon. Act and the legislation that is involved in and :Ylr. Tolmie, as reported on page 394 of that clansP, unfortunately, to my mind, '' Hansard," volume 95, for the year 1895, omittPd to refer to what took place in 1905 said- ~:m this question, when the very proviso that " It was not a matter that personally 1s b<:>mg altPred now was the subject-matter of eoncerncd him or his district. At the a full-dress d ,bate, and a general discw•sion 'ame time. he would like to see justice in which the hon. member for Leichhardt, . Howe\·er, that affected more of a pastoral holding or grazing selec­ particuiarlv the pastoral districts. His tion, shall have regard to- O\Yn iuter~:st Vilas rnainly in agricultural Mr. M acartne.y.] 1194 Land Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill (No. 3).

development, and if the provisions affected it, the results of his -labour and the agricultural centres in the same wav as investment of his ~apital practir-a!ly it did pastoral centres he should not· feel belonged to him as a reward for his inclined to let the matbcr drop .. , (•nergy and indllstry. To raise his rent because he has been <>ncrgetic and indus­ Tl11it started the discussion. On page 397 trious enough to C'reate \Vater on a \Vater­ will he found certain remarks made bv ::Yir. Iess dc,ert r·ountrv was to fine him for Hardacre, then hon. member for Leichhardt, being industriou,." That prin~iple was and then a member supporting the Govern­ w tong, and should not be adopted.'· ment of the day. Mr. Har·dacre said- " He woul·d like to ask the Minister :i\-Ir. Le,ina, I might remark, WJ.S at that whether he had got any •pecially strong time, like the hon. member for Leichhardt, reasons for desiring to omit the prm iso, a supporter of the then Government. l'IIr. because hP was opposed to its omission, Hardacre, on page 399, also made th•·:e for the reason that he could not bring rcn1ark;;::- himself to the approval of the omission " He thought it wonld bd from the resources of the not matter how much tho tenant had State, irrespective of improvements." Pxpended to improve it, the r ourt ~ould increase the rent because of the increa.1ed Further on he said- carrying capaf'ity. It "\Yas not a fair " It seemed to him that if the :\Iinist• r thing, and would work incalculable in­ was going to adopt this principle he jury; and if the ::Vlinister earri~d it would have to go further and omit through, h~ honestlY hPlievcd that not >mother proviso, which stated that in a sinr.;lo paotoralist would com~ under the determining the rent the court should Bill." have regard to the natural supply of The SECRETARY FOR Pvnuc L\~Df': The water and the fa"ilities for the raising Secretary for Public Lands said \\hlt? and storage of water. If the court had to take into ~onsideration the natural }\Ir. J\IACART:"i'EY: The Sccrdarv for supply and >t01·age of water. they \vould Public Lands said " Oh, Oh!" (L >Ughter.) have to discriminate betwe<>n a bo!dino· \Ye often say " Oh, Oh !" '''hen the Secretary with a splendid supply of water anrl for Public Instruetion is SJWaking, but. none anothPr holding without water. If it the less, the fa~t remains. would cost, say, .£5,000 to get the same The f\ECRETARY FOR P~BLTC LAXD~: That quantitv of water on the latter as existed "as a very significant cxprc~sion. on the 'formf·r, would it be fair to deter­ mine the rent exactlv th" same in both Mr. l\IACARTXEY: Mr. Hard;,ue "·ent on to sa_i:,~- cases? V ,, The rrr(~('l'-Urer was here ,.\nd he " The Sccrctarv for Pub]i( Ltnds : could ~!aim him in support d this \Vhat would hP tl;c value of some of the principle.'' holdings in the \Y est if there '-·as no irnproyernpnt ·: Theo Treasurer at that time was }fr. " J\lr. HARDAC RE : If the countrv was Kidston. desert. country, it was worth m'thing. '' If John Brown· did a thing. the and it sho~!ld pay .nothing; but if they result belonged to him.; if the Crown were beautJful grazmg dmYns they would did a thing. the result belonged to the be v·orth something. In itself the laud Crown. Unless there was some very good had a ,-aluc, irrespective of improve­ rPas:Jn against it. theY should n.c.1in the ments: that was the value we should provision.'' get, and r:othing more.· Therefore The qlwstion of the omis,ion of th ot pro­ although a man might spc·nd mon.·v i~ Yiso bez;ame the subject-matter of a di,·ision, making it more valuable, if there sh'ould o.nd :\Ir. Hardaero. the SecretarY for Public be an incre SE':·RET.\RY FOR PL'BLIC LAXDS : \V e do grazing selections. and the hon. g£o:1tl0man not propose to charge for improvements. said, on page 459- " The oth0r night he had taken up an The SEC'RETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTIOX: attitude with regard to the question of Then I can mak0 things clear sometimes? improvements." "' ::1Ir. l'IL\CART~EY: ::Yir. Lesina, who was The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : regarded as an exceedingly den10eratir 1nan I, thought you said I could not make things in those days, a gentleman who had no CJE'ar? particular affection for pastoral lessees or anv d the capitalists at that time, made Mr. ::\fACART:'\IEY: I have no doubt in my own mind that the hon. gentleman made these remarks, as reported on page 398- it quite clear that the omission of this proviso ,' If "n >)ccupier took up countrv and was exceedingly reprehensible; that it was inve·sted £100,000 in creating water: upon not a fair thing to do; that it was contrary [211r. jJ1acartney. Land Act [24 JULY.) Amendment Bill (No. 3). 1195 to the scientific .provisiOn in connection with Court should take into consideration the the adjustment of rent, and that it was in profits that can be made on any parti­ entire disagreement with all the principles cular holding. At first sight that appears which the hon. gentleman had enunciated a very fair principle to adopt. But it from Adam Smith and other authorities at was appealed against, and the Supreme that time. On page 459 he savs-· Court laid down an entirelv different "The other night he had "taken up an basis, w hi eh was in su bstanc'e that the ~ttitude with regard to the question of principle which should detPrmine the Improvements, and he had no option but rent was not so much the profits a· what to take the same attitude to-night against any other experienced person would be the raising of the rent on account of willing to give for land of the same improvements. There was also a double <]Urtlit;v in the same neighbourhood. At objection in this case. This referred to first sight both principles seem to be grazing farm h•,sees; but the other night identical. But there is a far-reaching the pastoral lessees W<:'re affected and difference between them. The de: :,,ion of what he objected to then thev wer~ now the District Court was that we should going to do with l'E·gard 'to grazing arrive at what "as a fair rental bv tak­ farmers .. hut without their consent. They ing into consideration the profits d'crived were gomg to make a contract whethc'l' from the holding. That was a wrong t~ey liked it or not under thi" pro­ prineiplc, because it involved not nwrely V1Sion.'' the advantages which are derived from the land itself but also the rcsu]+, of the I notice there that the hon. m<'IP.ber referred proprietor's capital. 'vork, and improYe­ to the anangcment betw0en the Crown and m<>nts. The decision of the Full Court the grazing farm lessees as a contract. I was based on the principle of competition realise that he has changed hi, opinion and -that we should not take these other now says t.hat there is no such thing hS a things into considPration, but that we contract w1th the Crown. He goes on to should take into consideration what rpnt say- other persons are willing to give for land " The'.e were two sections thev were of the same quality in the same loeality. going to omit. First under tlie 1884 As everv hon. members knows, that j,; Act. a grazing le,see t~ok up a selection the principle laid down in eom1ection with subject to the re~ssef"ment of the rent, local authority rating in our Local but the Land Court wPre given cPrtain Authorities Act. and tu mv mind it is instructions. First of all, in addition to the only true principle upon '"·hich we the oth~r things. they had also to consider should dct·-'l'mine Crown rents: and I am the relative valuE' at the time of the wrv pleast>d indeed that the Minister commencPment of the lease, and. second. has' drcided to embody that principle in to take into consideration anY increasPd the statute law instead of acting upon the value on account of imi)rovPments. authoritv of a decision of the Full Court. Those were two safeg-uards agcainst undue Personrtily, I do not think it makes an;v increase of rPnt which they were now diff0rcmce in the law. hut, nnlc's it is going to abolish.'' made statute law, it might at an:v tinw be, On page C:61, in a long spc0rh on that occa­ made the subject of an appeal to tlw sion, the hon. gentleman aid- High Comt. The deci,ion of the Full " He objected to the clans<' because it Court '\vas given at least five or six vears \vas wrong in principlP, and bcrause it ago, and since that time there h,• · '],cen invoh-0d a breach of contract with the no att<'mpt to appeal against that lessees.'' dQc·ision.'' The SECRETARY FOR PrBLIC' LANDS: He had There is nothing very much in th·tt that a b0tter opinion of the lessee'' thLn than he rdatf's 1) thf' particular point at isf-H'' in this has now. Bill, but it deals with the hon. gcntlernan's ::VIr. MACART::\EY: The resnlt was that vie"· of the principles whieh are kid down that proviso wa < omitted in the Act of 1905 in ,.•ction 125 and which ,:re not up pal _,ntl;, notwithst'lnding the protest wmch the hon: s:~Ji:-fPC'toril:v laid do,vn in previous ll"!Si.-Ia­ gent!Pman and his colleague of the dav mad<'. ti.m. It was included in the 1910 _\cc for and it was something like five veare before the purpose of determining the rent' payable the mattc·r caLlC on again. It 'can1e on in \Ye come 'now more directlv to the point connection with thD ronsolidation of the im·oh ed in this ea, e. On page 1222 the Land Act in 1910. The hon. gentleman hem. gentle.11an is found saying- apparentl;v, notwithstanding the lapse of five amen:..-1nlf','tt ':'ars. h~d failc~ to see an;vthing "rang in " ThPrf' is anothPr in Ius prevwus att1tude, and he followed the r,o·arr1 to which I am not in aC'cord with '·ame lines. He deliverPd ratlwr a long th~ Minister. A very imporbnt proviso speech on the second reading of the Bill dealing with rents has been omitwd from which is to bo found on pag-e 1221 of volnm~ ibis Bill. The provi'o that is omitted cvi. for the year 1910. The pGrt of that has come dovvn to m from th~ 1834 .\et, spec eh referring- to the particular subject­ and it has eo far been in everY Land ~\et matter under discussion is as follows:- that has been pa"·ed in QuePI1sland since " I wish now to deal briefly with some 1884-twentv-six vcue ago. It was intro­ of the verv serious differences between duced bv S{r Sa,.;,uel Griftith in the L•nd the provisions of this Bill and those in Act of ·1884 throu[ih his Minister. }fr. the Pxisting Acts whieh are said to be Dutton. Thcr<' have bern r<'peated analogous proYisions. Take, for exan1plP attempts to repeal this provision bdore. the IH'W principle adopted in th0 cleci: I think in the 1902 Bill there was a vPry sion of the Supreme Court regarding the Rtrong effort made to omit it. and after determination of rent in the case of the a good d0ll of discus-ion and opposition Xorlcy and TharP-"omindah appeal case. fro-m all sides of the House that omic,sion Before that appeal was made the lower \Va_, prevented." court-the District Court-decided in sub­ stance that in determining rent the Land Here, again, the hon. gentleman wa·s refer­ M r. M acartne.;;.] 1106 Land Act [ASSE:VIBLY.] Amendment Bill (No. 3). rmo· to the_ wrong Bill. He ought to haYe for example, there are manv vacant hee~1 re'errmg to the Bill of 1905. He went allotments, absolutely unimproved, but rOll- they haYe a very high value, and, if w€l '" Here, again, in this new Bill, we had got a rental basis for them, we could hav~ another effort to omit that yerv get a very high rent for them although important proYision. The provision i"s they are not improved. And if a tenant one which makes it necessa,rv for the put a large building on a large block­ Land Court in determining 'rents not say, like Finney, Isles-we ought not to to take into consideration the increased inerease the rent for that allotment < apacity of a holding through any im­ simply because the tenant had cpent a prov~ments made hy any lessee of a large amount of money in putting it to Ilolchng. a better use, There is a clear distinction ·· T)w . Secr?tary for Public Lands : between improYements a-nd the value of But 1t IS qlllty ha vc done a wrong quite possible that the wording of the th1n;-. JHoviso may be open to amendment to '"The Secretary for Public Lands: make it more clearly understood, but The:· say they cannot regard it. we ought not to alter the proviso in '"Mr. HARDACRE: I sav there is a mis­ substance however we ma-y alter it in under;,tanding about it. · I will r Crown does not O\Yn the improve­ Provided that in determining the ments; they belong to the tenant. and wnts regard shall not be had to anv all the Crown haYe a right to eharge is increase in the . Yalue of the holding rar, hear! I am. vn.tnt's enterprise and expenditure of <'.•p!tal on his holding in that wav. There Mr. MACART:.;EY: I hope the hon. sc:'nl~. how.evpr, to be some illisunder­ gentleman will realise what is the state of st

J\lr. MACARTNEY: The hon. gentleman with this matter. The action of his ~ol­ may say that is merely a change of verbiage, leao-ues and thP action of the Governn1ent but there is a change in substance. ha~;e p~t the fion. g~ntleman_ i_n a most incon­ The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRCCTIOX: sistent and 1mposoible pos1t10n. How the It is exactly what we propose now. hon. gentleman is going to clamber out of it I do uot know. Mr. MACARTNEY: \Yhat is proposed The SECRET.\HY FOR PBBLIC IXSTRFCTION: now is a clear change in substance. This Bill is proposing to make clear what The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTIOX : was laid down by me. To make it clear. Mr. MACARTNEY : The hon. gentlem_an J\1r. MACARTNEY: The hon. gentleman said clearly what the meaning of the proviso does not seem to realise the value of words was If there is any verbiage which _he says when he is speaking on these matters. It should be chang·ed, let us hear wh,,,t n 1s. I was always understood that the hon. gentle­ ask tl::e hon. gentleman to talw the Bill and man wa' the representative of the Labour look at \Shat he calls ''altered verbiagP." pa.rt:)' in connection with the land laws. The Mr. BRENNAN interjectc;d. hon. gentleman at one time held a portfolio as J\1ini"ter for Lands, many years ago, :.\1r. Mi\lACARTNEY: Let us hope not. and If thev did not have some such provision I am glad to hear th,, hon. gentleman say ,o, as this. tlwv would have the valuing of Th" SECRETARY FOR PenLrr INsTnecnox : irnp"DYC'Jner~ts as fl means for raising· a You have not shown a.ny inconsistency on my part. IcsoPe'~ rent. He had heard the hon. me•11bc•r for Leichhardt strongh- advocat­ Mr. ::V1ACARTXEY: Tlw hon. gentleman's mg- thi, provision, and he hoped h_e would incon~istency is absolutely phenomenal. Dur­ moport the amendr.tent. because It would ing the discus,oion of the Bill which rPmove',. be' d<'trimental to :;r:!t 1ement if people the limitation placed upon the pastoral n nt' wet~ penalised f0r making· improve' it was c!earlv shown how absolutelv incon: rnents." sistcnt the hon. gentleman was. , :\Jr. Hardacre followed. This is >vhnt ::YI:r. The SECRETAllY FOR PcBLIC IXSTRUCTION : No. You misrepresented me by onlv quoting Harr!acre said on that occasion-- half of it. , ' " Mr. HARDAC'RE was glad the :V1ini·.t;'r had accepted the amendment. I;fe dif­ ::l>Ir. MACARTNEY: I quoted evervthing to the point. ' fered from the Minister as 1:o the Impo_rt­ ance of it, and he -did not ag~ee >nth The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC IxsTReCTIOX : him that we should adopt the Insh Land You deliberately mis1·eprescnted me. It \\' :s Court princ:nk of ascertaining rent. He mean to 1nisrepresent me. 1Jelie1·cd it was l

JI.Ir. ::VlACARTNEY: Later on, Mr. and will not do, and what contentions can Hardacre said- ba raised-such as the one raised by the " Mr. HARDACRE: As the Minister had hon. gentleman last night-the accepted the amendment. he would move [4.30 p.m.] debate will be absolutely inter- th·· insertion, after ~ubdause (iii.), of minable. There is no sense in the same words, viz.-- that. There is a deliberate and direct altera­ Provided that in determining the tion of the law in the alteration of this rent regard shall not be had to any proviso, and it is impossible for any hon. increase in the value of the holding gentleman who profpsses a knowledge of attributable to improvements." t~e subject to say differently. ·The inclu­ swn of the words " including all its capabili­ I think that clearly indicates very fully as ties of development for thos not suppose anything we sa) here is cannot got a way fro;n it. There is no use going to alter the provisions of this Bill, but begging the question. It is a material altera­ ir is j Llst as well that the position should tion. This is th<' proviso to section 125- be understood; and I have endeavoured to .. Provided that in determining the ren: make it cle'1r. I trust that common sensP reii;ard shall not be had to anv increase will prevail and that th<; Government will in- the value of the holding attributable allow the section to stand as it is. to i1nprovements." Mr. GUI'\N (Carnar,;on): I would like to Ancl it is proposed to add to that the words­ sav a few words on this Bill. It seems a " other than 'Llch improvements as in ve'i·v innocent amendment of the existing the opinion of the court are reasonable Act. I would like to know how it is we and proper for the efficient use and have carri<:'d on our land laws without this working of the holding." amendment for so many years? Thod Act. 'rime after time I have noticed that upon Crown le3sees, and call it clearing up the man who improves his property has had an am bigctity. it taken away from him at the first oppor­ tunitv and at every annual assessment his The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC LANDS : h not rent -,;.oes up, although he is making that that what has been done by the court up to counh;'y evel' so much more valuable than it now? was before he took it up. The adjoining Mr. MAOART::\'EY: I am not dealing holder allows the pests-Bathurst burr, with that; I am dealing with the law. If prickly-pear-and anything else, to grow on we start to argue on what the court will do his land, and when he is up before the Land [.ilf r. jJfacartne.y. Land Act [24 JuLY.] Amendment Bill (No- 3). 1199

Court he is allow!ld a lower rental, the same property is a good tenant, and the man who rental, or-if it is increased-very little more. allows his property to go to ruin is a bad The con,equence is, you are discouraging tenant. You are going to p~nalise the man people from improving their holdings. In for improving his property. You do it at fact. I do not know whether, with so many every turn. First of all if he improves his fresh taxes being plac(Jd on a man, it pays property he is worth more to the shire him to improve his holding; it pays him council, and the shire council gets at him. better to leave it alone. I know runs where Then comes along the income tax, both resumptions have taken place, and prickly­ FedIBER: Who gave it to Tak<> Bullamon, which he was talking about. them? That run has not been improved. or treated Mr. GUNN :' I do not know who, but the as it should have been. Everv tim~ it came Government of the day. The Crown owned up for rCarriage- on hi;:; wool, ut ~-d. in the £1, would be £66 13s. 4d. The Urown thus gets done with it. I cannot see a bit of use out of that man for rent, income tax, and in the introduction of this Bill. It is another curriage on hi5 wool, £177 18s. 4d. mode of harassing the man who is trying to improve his property, and instead of harass­ :vir. \VHrrFORD : You are quoting a very ing the man who tri-ea to improve his pro­ low minimun1, are you not 7 perty we ought to encourage him and on l\1r. GUNK: I am quoting the case of a the other hand try to keep up to the notch man who has not improved his property. th<' man who will not and allows his pear Take the opposite cac;'J of a man who does and other pr·,,ts to p·ow. vVe should not 1mprove his property with the same area as '.Yorrv the man and c~igtre~s the man 1.:•:ho is the other man-100 squar,. miles. He spends tryin'g to improve th8 public e~tate. £12,000 in improvements and is able to water The SECRETARY FOR FCBLIC IX­ his country all over, ringbark the scrubby STRCCTIOK (Hon. H. F. Hardacre, country and make it capable of carrying Leichlwrrlt): The lea;der of the Opposition has 30,000 ehecp as agaimt the other man's 4,00U. done me the honour of reading at great length \Vel!, puttiTig 1t on :he same rate of 2s. 6d. a number of extracts from speed10s of mine a head, that means an income of £3,750, and on a former occasion for which I feel as you haye a graduated income tax that highly complimented, and he has really saved man pays :ls. Ocl. in the £1. The consequence me from the necG",sit:y of making a Yery long is that he will pay £140 in income tax. 'l'hen speech, because the extracts he has quoted he will give to his shearers the same rate put the position so dearly that they do not as the uth"r·--£1.000. 'Then the carriago need '""''V much elaboration. I am delighted of his wool at the Mme rate would be £500 that the' memb'rs of the Opposition af last so that of the two men who pay the ,ami> realise that I do put my position so clearly 1tnt one 1nan pays in rent and incon1e tax. that lv_es the better for the country? Is not the man believe in. The leader of the Oppos1hon 1s, who spent all that money in wages and in however, very prone to insinuate dishonest improving his property a better tenant? motives and eYil intentiom, even in the most Mr. ·WHITFORD: What about the fellow innocent proposals, and without offering any v;ho earned the, wages l proof whateY<>r. After rea,cJing extracts from Mr. GUNK: I suppose the man ·,v]w mv former speeches, he makes a dedara­ earned his wages has them paid to him. tit~n that the.c-e proposals are brought in for some evil object, and that I am en­ ::\fr. 'iVHITFORD: Some of them do not get tirely inconsistent in supporting the Bill paid wages. now in comparison with the attitude I ::Vlr. GU::\f:::\: I do 110t think I am called took up previously. When the lea-der of upon to an'·Wer irrelevant questions of that the Opposition has built up a very J:Icautiful dGscription. J.f 1.he hon. member likes to house of cnrds-as he usually docs-1t merely give notice of it I might be prepared to 1'cquiree a breath to blow it down. He must answer it to-mcrrow-in due course. (Laugh­ know that the proposal now being made is ter.) It woulrl Le just the same if I started an entirelv different propo,al from the one at 6d. or 1s.--I am proving that the man that w·as made on the occasion when I made who improves thi' country is a better man the speAches referred to. At that time the for the countt·v than the man who does not. proposal was for the purpose of omitting the The more hiihly he improves the country proviso altogether and, rightly at that time, the more you get out of the man, nohl·ith­ I b<>lievc, I took the position that it was otanding the rcrnt. The rent is really only a vvrong to on1it such a proyiso ; but irr the Bccondary consideration if you can get a man very quotation that the hon. member made to improve his country. It is all very w0ll from my speeches it will be ~e?IO' that I then to pile on the taxes and conditions on the pointed out the very pos·,1b1hty of there man on the land. 'Take your own estate, being some ,doubt in the matter. I said- the Cecil Plains Estate. Before the Go­ " It is quite possible that the wording vernment came into power and put on a of the proviso may be open to amend­ land tax, land in the vicinity was sold for ment to make it more clearly understood, [.Mr. Gunn. Land Act (24 JULY.l Amendment Bill (No. 3). 1201

but we ought not to alter the proviso in " Provided that in determining the 'ubstance however we alter it in carrying capacity of a holding for sheep verbiage .. , the number of cattle shall not be taken The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA"DS : And into consideration." that is what we are doing now. It is an absurditv and an anomalv. be­ cause the ·definition. of "holding" is the land The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­ of a holding. Any member who will tur!'l STRUCTIOJ:\ : And that is exactly what we to the interpretation sections will find that are proposing to do now. 'l'he case I antici­ that is •·O. In clause 4 of the 1910 Act. pated aetually has arisen. ''holding" is described as- 1\lr. YowLES: You arc qualifying it alto­ '· The land held by any lessee~" gether. not the land and improvements. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­ 11r. MoRGAK : Land that is dirty is stilf STRCC'!'ION .: No; we are trying to carry land he holds. out the mtentwn by removing an ambiguitv which clearly does exi-t in the proviso, and The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­ I will point out the ambiguity and a,lso an STRUCTION: It is the land that is held, ambiguity arising from omitting a previous not the improvements. proviso that was in all previous Acts. I Mr. l'IIORGA!'!: The cleaning of it up is pointed out that some doubt might arise improvements. and canso a necessity to make clear what The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­ the !:r:eaning was. That is exactly the design STRUCTION: 'l'hat is not land, and you of tln' BJll-to make clear the meaning of cannot rent improvements under this Act at that section. So far, I believe, the Land alL Take the meaning of "selection''- Court has always carried out in its detcr­ " 'l'he making of an application for minations of rents the meaning of the section land under Part 4, or the land selected." as laid down by myself; but now there is an appeal against the practice of the Land Court Now, when the court has to determine the in determining rental on that basis which is rent of the holding, it is clem from that likely to lead to litigation inYolving a great interp1·etation that it can only determine the r 'Cpense to all parties, and not only expense rent of the land, and not the rent of the im­ to the Crown and pastoral lessees and graz­ provements, because they have no power to ing ~e-sees, bu~ involving a hanging up of determine the rent of the im­ the mterpretatwn of the Act. It may be [5 p.m.] proremente, and, therefore, this taken to the Supreme Court, and the Full proviso is an anomaly; it is Court, and to the High Court, and then the not only tautology, but also an Irishism. It Privy Council, and in the meantime for an is practically saying that when you are indefinite period-nobody knows ho~ long­ counting the Humber of sheep you are not the Land Court's interpretation of the Act to include the number of cattle. It is an will be httng up and nobody will know where absurdity. At the same time, there is this he is. I think it will appeal to all hon. difference in comparison with the 1905 or members that if there is a possibility of that 1910 Act-it does not matter which: that sort it is the dnty of the Government to make whilst there was sotne ambiguity the evident clear what the section is intended to mean intention was s0 clear that I thought 'it was without involving themselves and others i1~ entirely wrong to omit the proviso alto­ )itigation and expense. ::\1y opinion, speak­ gether, and w we took action to insert what mg· personally, .1s that the appeal that is from that time has been a protection to the pendmg w11l fall. At the same time lose lessee against having the rent of his land or win-as t~e case may be-it is goi~g to increased beca'Use he put improvements on it. ha Ye these due consequences and therefore The rEal difficulty arises from the omission I think, in common with the Minister for of a proviso that was formerly in the 1884 Lands, that it is the dutv of the Government Ad. In the analogous section of the 1884 to try to clear up that doubt. Let me show Act, dealing with the determination of rent, where there is some doubt. non. members will find this proviso- " In determining the rent regard shall Every word has to be carefully weighed be had to- in such a proyision. Everv word is liable to (a) The quality and fitness of the be a trap unle's we are ~·erv careful to be land for agricultural or grazing pur­ absolutely accurate, and ho-wever clear it poses, as the case may be; appears to be. If one will read it verv care­ (b) In lhe case of grazing farms, the fully there is no doubt that it is taut"ologv · number of stock which the holding may ir. is surplu'3age; it is unnecessary surplu·~aLg~ reasonably be expected to carry in -part of it, at any rate-and it is actually an average seasons after a proper and Irish bull, to use a metaphor. The proviso r

1918-4 E Hon. H. F. Hardacre.] 1202 Land Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill (No. 3). the carrying capacity of the country, and so consideration. reasonable and necessary im­ and so, unct so and so. Then, it goes on to provements m order that the land can be •a:y that in determining the rent certain put to an efficient use. prinCiples shall be followed; it shall be on the value of the holding as laid down in the Mr. MORGA::'-< (]Iurilla): As one experi­ Norley-Thargomindah case. It must be on enced more or less with life in the bush, the b~sis ?f .whnt a reasonable person would I say that the Minister is not likely to give ror Similar l<1nd in the same neio-hbour­ encourage the settlement of land in this hood, provided h? wanted to use it f";,r pas· State by bringing forward t:his , amending !oral purposes With reasonable and proper Bill. My experience, and I thmk It is borne Improvements. There is nothing specific of out by all who travel round the countrv parts of this State, is that improvements 'at the ~hat kind in the section, but, nevertheless, it present time are almost at a standstill. IS always understood in the Land Court. It is inecapably understood. It must be under­ The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : You stood, as the_re is no sens: in it unless you want to turn the State into a wilderness. have sometlung of the kmd. There is no . Mr. l\IIORGA~: No, I want to encourage .such thing as value in the abstract. V a!ue Improvement of the land. If the people are i": the abs.t!'act would be as absurd as saying to be taxed owing to the fact that thev are d1stanc-e m the abstract or colour in the prepared to improve their land and make it .abstrflct. There i~ colour of a wall or colour of greater carrying capacity, then people of building, anrl there is distance from will be discouraged from embarking upon point to point, hut there is no such thing pastoral o1· grazing pursuits. as distance in the abstract or colour in the abstrad, and, at the same time, there is 110 The SECRETARY FOR PBBLIC LANDS : That is such thing as value in the abstract. The not the fact. value of a thing must be thB v,,]ue for a Mr. MORGA~: Anyone who reads this specific purpose--for such and such assumed Bill must come to the conclusion that the purpose. For example, say, there is a vacant Land Court, in fixing the rental value of a piece of land ir:. Queen street, and suppooe holding, if the Bill is passed, will take into son1eone :sa id to 1ne, "There is a very vain­ consideration the fact that certain improve­ able piece of land." I said, "\\'hat for? ments placed on the land by the lessee have For .a coahninc? " "Of eourse, not for a increased the carrying capacity of the land. coaln1ine." "VV... hat do vou mean? For a The SECRETARY FOR PCBLIC LANDS: Is it sawmill? " "Certainly riot!' \\·e must take not the carrying capacity that entitles the its Yellue es a business site, and, althongh State to the rental? the '.>ords "busine's site" are not there, th'O save all litigation. If it is found that individual so far as improvements are when we g<'t into Committee that the phrase­ concerned. \Yhen a lease expires the Govern­ ology doe,, not ab,olutely carry out that pur­ ment may throw open the land to grazing pose, then it will be quite within the pro­ farm selection at a capital value of £1 per \'in~e of a member of the Opposition or anv acre owing to the fact that the land has been other member of the House, to en'deavou'r improved-that it has been ringbarked, to amenq it in some slight way in order to fenced, and numerous other improvements sPe that It does <'arry out the exact intentions placed on the land, of the Aet a3 it is being acted on by the The SECRETARY FOR P-uBLIC LANDS : Does not Le hr ,. been thoroughly improved and kept You arc taking away the freedom which we clPan. heard w much about from members on the The S-CnETARY FOR PcBLIC LA:\iDS: Your other sicle in connection with another matter ar::;umcnt now is that we should imnose df'bated in this Chamber. The 1910 Act con­ certain conditions on all pastoral holdings. ta.ins certain provisions. If a person who ::\Ir. l\1()RGAK: No, my argument is that s·•lected land under that Act feels aggric\-ed cverj- cr,n, ideration should be given to the because of a decision given against him, then man who improves his countrv and not allow there are certain clauses which lav down the the Land Court to tax imprm:ements. law and provide that that man ~an appeal. The S,;cRETARY FOR Pt:nLIC LANDS : He The tena.nts have certain rights und<'r the wonld have to pay whether he improved or 1910 Act, and we have no right to take them­ not. away by a Bill of this description. If this i\lr. MORGAX: We admit that under this Bill is carriPd, it is going to do more injury Bill the man who will not improve his to Queensland. as a whole, than it will do couutr:, will be taxed just the same, but good. because it will allow the Land Court '· 0 arc not dealing with what will happen in h take improvements into consideration in th~ futur0. vV e are also going to penalise fixing the amount of rent. Take the case the n1an who improves his country. of a. man who take,, up land under pastoral conditions or grazing farm conditions. The The. SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC LANDS: That ::\Iinik··r referred to the fact that provision is IH·t SO. is made that artesian water may be found ::\lr. C'.IORGAN: We a.re going to tax the on the property. The Go,-ernment know willing horse. vYhether that is so or not, ]Wrfectly well that, when they fix the rent, that is the construction we place on the there is alwavs a likelihood of getting BilL artesian \vater: and the rentals a.re fixed Th0 S±·:CRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: vVe are ac.nording to that view. only a ~kinz thcrn to do vvhat is a fair and The SE"RETARY FOR PFm,rc LA~DS: As a proper thing in the improvement of their matter of fact we throw the land open for propc.rty in order to get the best out of it. competition, and they fix their own price. ::\Ir. ThiORGAX: That is so, but, of c~mrse, ::\Ir. ~IORGAN: In certain instances you the best way to improve a property is a do. but in other instances vou fix the rer.t matter of opinion. All the same there is no and call for applications, which a.re decided doubt that it is the intention of the Govern­ by ballot. me 1t. as far as thi"' Bill is concerned, to gin• the Land Court power to increa.se a The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LAXDS : \V e m an's rental. simply fix the upset price, and they fix their u\vn rent. The Sc:•.'RETARY FOR PrBLIC LA:\iDS: It is to maintain that power. Mr. }10RGAN: Eventuallv it is decided by ballot who gets the particular land. The :\Ir. MORGAX: We maintain that up to department know perfectly well that there the present there is nothing to show that is a probabilitv of obtaining water, and "e they have lost the power in any sha.pe or know that w~ter improvements aff<~ct the form. The Minister has told us there is carro ing capac;ty of the country. likd:· to be> a court case. I think myself The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC lNATRc:CTIO~ : that if the Go,·ernment believe they are in You must presume that someone is going to th•' right, then they should fight the court get \\ ater. case, but if they are in the wrong they -hou!d admit they are in the wrong. Mr. ::\fOHGAN: Yes. and the Government The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC LANDS: And fix the rent accordingly. The Government we \till have all the lessees in Quecnsland fix the rent to enable a man to carry a appealing. \\'e will want another Income certain number of stock to make it pay. Tax Bill then. The SECRETARY FOR PtrBLIC LA~ms : The :\Ir. MORGAN: If there is an appeal and Gon·rnm<>nt fix the rent so that a man will a challenge to the Government to go to the be able to develop his land. Privy Council, I do not think we should :Ylr. MORG \N: I admit that that is so interfere with it in any shape or form. Prob­ in many easPs, but thiB Bill is likely to ably, only onp pastoral lessee will do that, prevent any improvements being made at a.nd the rest of the tenants should not be all. This Bill is going to restrict the making prevented from going on as thish. and <'Xpect the tenants to c·C',•r it i~ going- to retar·d pron;ress and it is going and kE''~P it clean. That is a burdPn \'~hi eh to stop -dev8lopment in ndt11011ts which n1av be mo erl in in .rJeyeloping grazing areas·. Committee. lwcause J- can 'assure him that The SECHET.\RY FOR PuBLIC LA;.;Ds: Ha., it if this Bil! is paese.d and placed on the done all th<>s'o thing-s in the past'! ::ase, and will take a!l wonld rcppear, in view of the remark-· that he ean ont of the ],,nd without S)l0Pclin::; L.tYe falh·li frnm the :.\linister for Education, anything in improY<'ments on it. He wiil that a d"claration is unnece· decision irrigntion. \Yhen a man wishes to take his cf that court. If that ic· the rea

<"hethf'r it ;s a fair thing to pass legislation condition in which it is, but the condition the t>ffPct of which will be to deprive v improved. buYc c..t pn··"pnt, because we are asked, not The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Any only to 01mend the law, but we are asked to reasonable improvement. declare wh~tl the la\Y -alwayB has been, and Mr. YOWLES: The carrying capacity is for that rca,on it is not a nroper thing to VE'ry much wrapped up in a man's means. amend the la'v as SttBg-Pste.d. Let that cas(J One man can make it greater than others [,e d• ,ided on its merits. I object to being by ringbarking, scrub falling, creating a parry to legislatlng to interfere wit!, tl!:: water, and in other directions. ptc">nt rights of individual' and to declare the rights to be something which they ar::> The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : noL The basis of value i~. reasonable and proper improven1ents. Tlw SECRFTARY FOR PuBLIC INSTRUCTIO" : \Yh>t would happen if you got a decision Mr. VOWLES: That is theoretical, to in the lower xpected into a couple of droughts and rs thrown to carry. back. Yolt give him four or five years to do all his improvements. He is .a m~n . of The· SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC I"STRUCTIO:>r : limited means. He goes slow wrth Ins Im­ "l'Tnder what circumstances? provements. If there is no natural water he Mr. VOWLES: Well. what is the carrying must make some provision for water. It capac it:-- of a piece of land? The hon. gentle­ can easily happen that that man's. land, man will suggest that that mf)ans not the even at the end of the first term, wrll not Mr. Vowles.] I 20G Land Act [ASSE::\IBLY.] Amendment Bill (No. 3),

b9 improYed to that highly .RY FOR l'rBLIC LAXDS : IY e are The SECRETARY FOR PrBI.IC LANDS: Oh, no: only asking to leave the court as it stands now. It will take all thoFe things into con­ :Sir. VO\VLES : And it is bound down by sjderat:ion. certain 'vords. The SECRETARY FOR PFBLIC INSTR\TT!O:';: Mr. VOWLES: The court has had a loose Do ~·ou mean to say the court ha o h< en \\·ay of dealing with it. They have a sort making different determinations in regard of unwritten law, as far as that particular to rents a.ccording to the varying f•.ttunes principiP is concerned, that it was intended of the tenants ? to be w and so-although nobody suggested it Inasmuch as it \Yas an unwritten la\v, it :\.1r. VOWLES: They have not auj hard was flexibh and could be bent to meet and fa,t rule. whichever case came before the court. But The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC lNSTRl!TTIOX: if you are going to bind the court down­ They ought to haYe. as you are doing here-it may take certain Mr. VOWLES: Now thPY will not have things into consideration; but it must take the right to say, ''\Ye do not think we should into consideration, in determining the rental take into consideration, in determining this nlue. that this land is at the highest state man's rent. the fact that he has got it up of efficiency. to which it could possibly be to the highest state of efficiencY, wlwn 'he put. has not. The law savs we must' do it. and The SECRETARY ]'OR PUBLIC I:-.:! vcrv towards simplicity, if there is ar,ything in frequently. • our land laws in the r<'gion of simplicity, we The SECRETARY FOR Pnli.IO IKSTR"L'CfiO:!',': ar" working in the direction of complexii,v. Hear, hem·! Thut seems to be borne out to a very lar<;e extent. too, b~· tlw quotations which have ::\l!r. VOWLES: Do you not think yoLt ber~n g,·iven to-r1ay from speeche~ previously should make some provision so that if they ·tleli vered bv the hon. the SecretarY for do arise the court will not be bound bv hard Public Instrtl('tion. · ond fast rules, but will have the po\ver or di-crimination and to bend to meet cases such ThP SF.CRET.\RY FOR LAN'DS: The Secrerarv as that? I do not think you should introauce for Public In,;tmction does not proihs to be leg·islation by which, wittingly or unwit­ infallible. tingly. individuals will be deprh-ed of exist­ :Mr. G. P. BAR::'\"ES: He does not, but it ing rig;hts. I ca1mot support the measure. seems to rne tl1t1t there was clParn0:::s in the I am opposed to that principle. I 11m wav in which the hon. member summed up oppo,ed to interfering by Act of Parliament the' land laws and what they should he then with people's contracts or their legal rights, which is not eo be found in his argumerh particularly when litigation is pending to to-da.v. The hon. member was paniculady which the Crown is a party. For that reason clear in 1910, when he made reference to o'-lr J shall vote ag-ainst the second reading, but land lf.ws regarding improvements and that if it is curicd I propose to assist the Min­ kind of thin!!. and if hP is going· to hold fast ister to put his measure through and suggest to what he sai·J then, he is certainly on the some of the amendments I have suggested wrong track thi~ afternoon. now to make it a better Bill than it is at The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC l-:-;STRlTTIO~ : pre~'~'n'' If it j:=; going to become law, let it ~0. become law with a,, little vagueness in it as :Mr. G. P. BARNES: He is making a P'1s~ible. Let the court have the powers it direct denartm·c from w};at he statPd th<'n should have, and do not plac,, individuals in as being the true basis upon which to that position in which thev are nlaced bv approach the principles which he laid down other Acts of Parliament: for ,;,hich this should exi~t. I lake it that this Bill is going Government is not altogether responsible. to do just· the opposite to what tlw hon. Each of tl>o oth•1r Governments which are to member set out then. I know it is ll<'Jt wise, blame should t'ilkc their share of the respomi­ it is r.ot fair 'tiiom; to him, very often going on a lurg" block-say, like Finney. Isles in fear, }>ecausc of political reasons. that he -we cmg-ht not to increase the rent for is nof go:ing to reC'eivc th~. san1c considera­ that allotm2nt simplv because the tenant tion, perhaps. as he might receiVP if the hnd •;pent a large amount of money in other party were in powPr, or that the deci­ putti'l:; it tCl a better use." sion will be diffe!·ent from what it would have The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IXSTRCCTION: been if that Minist<>r was out of office. Hear, hear! I say that now. The SFRET-'RY FO>t PFBLIC' LANDS: Surelv vou do not think the Land Court would be ~1r. G. P. BARNES: No, you arP saying ]dluenced bv that! the opposite now- :\fr. YO\VLES: I did not sav the Land " 'fhere is a clear distinction between Court. I say that there are other Acts of improvements and the value of land Parliament und·-r· which you have to go to without improvements. We have recog­ ihe Minister. Take the case of remissions nised that principle in our Local Autho­ under the Land Tax Acts. It is vcrv nice to ritv Acts, and I cannot understand why have the power from the Minister'spoint of the Land Court cannot put that simple viev.", but you huve to place tb0 whole of principle into operat~on. It is qu!te your private affairs before the ::\Iinist<>r, a.1d possible that the wordmg of the prov1so J.l1r. G. P. Barnes.] 1208 Land Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill (No. 3).

may be open to amendment to make it are not disposed to do that, then our idea more clearly understood, but we ought is to base Ol\r calculations. not upon what not to alter the proviso in substance you are doine;, but upon what we think you . howeyer we may alter it in verbiage. ought to do." In other words, it is the \Ye ought to lay down the clear principle court who jndg·e what the owner should do, that we should rent not the improvements not the man himself. Are we to assume that but merely the land. The Crown does land will be taken up as an allotment, or not own the improvements: they belong in a grazing area, or in any other kind of to the tenant, and all the Crown have a way, and that people will in each case be righ~ to charge is rent for what is Crown in considerable doubt, in ceaseless fear, as property; and that is Crown land, irre­ J,o what should be done with their properties, spective o£ improvements." as to what will satisfy the Land Court? The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION: The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : Hear, hear! I say that now. Suppose a man put a stable on one corner of his land, should it be valued for stable Mr. G. P. BARNES: That is perfectly purposes or for big building purposes? honest and perfectly fair. That is what you are not going to do in the amendment. :\Ir. G. P. BARNES: The hon. member Hon. members opposite say that if the tenant mppows that men who take up land are has not been •,eized with the improvements going to act in a kind of lunatic fashion. he should have made, then they are going to decide in fixing a rent of the land on what The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : improYements he should have made and act They may. ut·l·unl.iugly. Mr. G. P. BARNES: They may; but it The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRL'CTION : is not reasonable to suppose they will do so It is the only way you can value the land. in their own in.tere .. t. It seems to me that if the Bill is carried out it is going to impose Mr. G. P. BAR:::\ES: No; the hon. mem­ a Yery extreme hard,hip upon the settler; ber is acting in direct opposition to what he and I am more concerned about the settler laid down before, and he is going to make it than about a man holding an allotment in possible for the Land Court to decide as to Queen streot, I or in ,tance. I am concerned what the capabilities of development of a about a man taking up land who has to take certain place are. into account the diversity of opinion that may The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : arise b.v and by between him and the (Ourt Hear, !.ear! as to \Yhat improvements ·should be put 2\Ir. G. P. BARNES: That is going back upon it. ou his id0a in what he .c:aid regarding Finncy, The SECRETARY FOR PUBLH' LANDS : Surely Isles, awl Co. He is going to say, in effect, they could arrive at some margin to deter­ "Here is an allotment of land:· It might mine what is reasonable improvements! be imprtwed to this extent. You have onlv Mr. G. P. BARNES: Yes, if you are improved it partially and not to its full going to secure a reasonable interpretation; extent. The Land Court is g:oing to deter­ but. unfortunately, that is not always obtain­ mine that, instead of improying it onlv to able, and, seeing that human nature is a this extent, you should have improved it to very weak thing and extremely freakish, as this further extent." That is against his we ha vc se fin it in many cases, it is unwise argu1uent previously. !A:J make a provision of this kind which may The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC I);'STRUCTION : haYf' a yerv serious influence upon a selector. \Vhat should have been done with it; not It is not wise to impose difficulties of this the rent of the land and the improvemenh kind. Of cou1·se. the court is supposed to on top. give a reasonable interpretation to it; but. Mr. G. P. BAHNES: The real idea of this :-J~cing that e-vidence is ;:;omctimes so diverse, Bill, nnles, it is going to make confusion and that men may be carried away-even worse confounded-and it strikes me that is men of superior judgment-and give a deter­ '-rhat is going to happen-is to make things mination that is not wise, I think that less dnr. In other words, we are making 1t further consideration should be gi,·en to the proposal of the Government. Indeed, I more <.-,mplex than ever. Hon. members will see hm,· the door is open to a great dis­ think it would be verv much better if our parity d ideas. One man m·ay come along land laws wPre recast entirelv-inc.tead of and say, "This land should be under lucerne." bringing in one, t'vo, or · threC, or eyer so The man himself may have an alto;:ether n1arv ainendmcnL~-and so come down to a different idea, and the Minister is simplv dearly interpreted Act. paving- the way for extreme difficulties. He Question-That the Bill be read a second i:3 r:,oing- t.o try to in1pose upon the man time-put and passed. ownmg the land the necessitY to realis.c what the Land Court will imagi'ne should be done w1th h1s land. PROPOSED CO:\!}IITTAL. The :3E;RET\RY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION: The SECRETARY FOH PUBLIC LANDS: Suppose• a man put a sawmill on a big )Ir. Speakcr.-1 move that you do now ~eave piece of property when it should be a business the chair, and that the House resolve Itself site. into a Committee of the Vli'hole to consider lUr. C. P. BARNES: The hon. member the Bill in detail. assuu1c.- that a pen,on owning a propPrty is :VIr. MACARTKEY: I do not know why not seizer1 with what he should do with it, the hon. gentleman is so particularly anx!ous and th<' Bill, therefore, allmn the court to to go into Committee on this Bill straight com(• a !enc.· ard say, "Look hne, old man, away. It i,; one of £he new Bills of the you a: e n1aklng a gigantic mi~take. You session. nnd deals with an ex­ are not usirg this property as you should. [7 p.m.] ceedinglv technical matter. Vli'e \Ve s:ty it~ capabilitie::; are so c.nd ·"\o, and have onlv had the second reading •o and so should be done with it, and if you debate to-day, and I think that .it is a bad [J.fr. G. P. Barnes. [24 JULY.] Fares Bill. 1209 practic,- to go into Committee immediatC'ly in~ bodies •,cho feel keenlv interested in this after t' c H'cond reading. n•atter. and, that being so very clear, I have The 8LC'RETARY FOR PcBL1C LA!ms : The Bill no doubt that the Opposition will look upon has h•en in the hands of hon. members for th0 Bill in quite a new light. We have to the last fortni!lht. It is ridiculous that a rcr,,gnise thar the Bill purports to do Bill of practically one clause should be de­ ade()nate justice to everybddy connected with layed so long. the tramwav·, in Brisbane. In the first place. we havP to look upon the people who 1\Ir. :\IACART~EY: In connection with ere creating the business, the people who are other Bills. we have joined hands with the directlv interested in the matter, and the GovNmnent in getting them through, but, pconle who, from 1896 up till the present in this case. it is a now Bill, and. after all, tim~. h'n' ,, been creating·, not only large it has only been disclosed on the second dividends for the shareholders of that com­ reading-. 1Jndt>r the circumstances, I think pany. but also, at the same time, piling up the hon. gentleman should not go on with it. very large reserves which ultimately go to It is hardly fair to the Opposition, and if it the company. is fail' in this case~ it is fair in ever;;,~ case. Hon. \Y. H. BARNES : Do you say since The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: If the 1896, Bill had only been brought in to-dav, there might be something in the contention of the The HOME SECRETARY: Yes. since hon. n1e1nber. 1896. Hon. \Y. H. BARC'iES : I do not think the i\Ir. lVIACART~EY: I quite understand hon. gentleman is in possession of all the the spirit in which the Premier met us in facts. connection with other Bills. As a matter of fact, whnn we adjourned the House the other Th" HO:\IE SECRETARY: I have the day it wns on the understanding that the figures here, which I "ill give the hon. gentle­ Committee stage would not be taken immedi­ man. The Tram,·ays Company has been ately after the second reading. There is, making profits, at any rate, from 1897 right perhapc. nothing very much in the Bill. and up till the present time. it will not take long to put it through Com· Hon. W. H. BARNES: Tell us when they mittee at a later stage. I am not asking started paying clividends. for anything that is unfair. as I want to The HOME f'ECRETARY : I shall be very help the dcc,pakh of business in a reason­ pleased to do that. I can assure the hon. able 'v.;:v, but, if this is going to be adopted gentleman of this: On going into detail, it has "' tlw ordinary practice~~ · been found that, according to the dividends The SEC'RE1'ARY FOR PrBLIO LANDS : I would declared. in 1916 the company had made like to know from the hon. gentleman how approximately £1,500,000 out of the people long- h<:> l hinks it would tak•3 to put it through of Brisbane. Committee if we agreed to postpone it? The SEcRET.\RY FOR RAILWIYS: Distributed :\Ir. :VIACART~EY: I do not think it £L500.000. should take more than an hour am! a-half 'f!JP H0:\11<' SECRETARY: That is the or "'mething- like that. I do not intend to divi.Jc1Hh p 5 bt'hvccn gross revenue and attempt to delay the passing of legislation m long ,,-e get a reasonable opportnnit:, of cJi,,, it. Hon. W. H. BARXES: Is that n~t? The SEC'RE1'.\RY FOTI PcBLIC LAXDS : If the ThA HOME SECRETARY: Yes, net-to hon. nwmber will agree not to take an be 0xact, £1,495,117. I dare say the hon. inordinate leng-th of time, I will agree to gPntleman would be surprised to know how postpone the Committee stage. these figures were secured. It is not from the information we got from th~ Tramways :Vir. \L\CART:.JEY: I can promise the Companv but from one who is highly quali­ hem. ge•1tleman that there will be no inor­ fied a ",{,an well versed in the science of dinat.• leng-th of time taken up. \Ye will eco;,omics, who by means of interpolati~:ms rll'al with it with despatch, and various information that came to h1m, TbP SECRETARY FOR FCBLIC LA~DS: figured out this very large sum of money Bv pr·rmi•,;ion of the House. I withdraw that has been madq by the Brisbane Tram­ 1n~,· m"tion. , ways Company from 1896 till 1916. The SPEAKER: I' it the pkasure of the Hon. W. H. BARNES : It is quite evident Hon·e that the hon. gentleman be allowed the figures ore not authentic. to withd ra 'V his motion? The HOME SECRETARY: They are so Ho: .)t:RABLE ME1!BERS: Hear, hear ! authentic that when these figures have been Motion withdrawn acc0rdingly. cher'l

Th<; HOME SECRETARY: We have been Persse. These are outside parliamentary waiting such a long time for these figures life altogether. Thtm, in 1890, the second that nobody will be better pleased than I 'Tramway Act was intro-duced, and there are to have a verification of the facts I intend to only ten persons alive to-day who were bring before hon. members at the present members of Parliament at that time. Two timE;:. It is not the intention of the Go­ of. th<>m are now in the Legislative Council­ vernmt>nt to do any injustice to the share­ namely, the Hon. E. J. Stevens and Hon. holders. Not for one moment do we say ·w. Stephens-but they were in the Assem­ that thev are not entitled to a fair return bly at that tim~. Is it right to Bay that for their' money. th<' people of. these times should have to Hon. W. H. BARNES : What do you call suffer disabilities which were placed on them " a fair n~turn" ? bv people in 1890? Is it right that they The HOME SECRETARY: " A fair re­ should have to suffer those disabilities for turn" is a sum of money <)qual to the capital all time, >tnd no subsequent Parliament have value of the concern, and that is what we the right to deal with the measures pas~ed are prepared to give. I am not dealing with on that occasion? their share value, because if we dealt with }1 r. :VlORGA"' : Then no contracts any that we would find it would be very much good aft,,r ten years? lowE)r than the nominal c>Lpital of the com­ pany-that is. £955,000. But the capital is The HOME SECRETARY: 'That is not inflated to a large extent over and above the the point. So far as the Tramways Company dividends. We know also that the reserves is concerned, it is a con1n1on carrier, and have been auiotlv capitalised and have been it ha·' been recognised throughout the l!nited ~apitalisPd for SOme_ time past, and at this States of America and abo in Great Britain Juncture "'" are t>nhtled to give the people --both of whieh I will quote later-that the some return for all thev have done for the peopl<' have the right to have matters rP_ad­ Tramways Company. Hon. members might ju,-:.ted in .connection ·with con1n1on earners think that the 5 per C<'nt. ·dividend which is from time to time. That right has been provided for in the Bill is in connection recognised fron1 time itninemorial. It is with the share value, whereas, as .a matter of so with the railwavs and also with the tram­ fact, the 5 per cent. dividend is allowed on :;,ays. If that is ' rec•ognised in the old the fair market value of the Tramwa>s co~ntrv and in the united States. then it is Company, so that it will rQally amount to up to ·m at the present time to rPadjust the more than 5 per cent. conditions in connection with the Tramways Company. Hon. W. H. BARNES: Is not that the usual way of declaring dividends? Hon. \V. H. BARXES: Your readjustment, so far as the railways are coneerned, is to The HOME SECRETARY: It may be. H was only yesterday I noticed the return rair-e the rates. from a company where the share capital had Th0 HOME SECRETARY: I do not know been increased by reserves 80 per cent., and wh>tt thev are doing in c-onnection with the they only declared a dividend of 7 per cent., railways 'at the pre;mt time, but I t~ink it bm after the profits made last >ear this com­ v. ould be a vcrv good thing to rm•e the pany declared a dividend of 12f per cent. \Ve ratFs and fares o;; the railways at the present know they could easily have declared a divi­ time. dend of 12~ per cent. when the,- made it I-Ion. \V. H. BARXES: Yon have dor.e it. 7 per cent., and I suppose the ·Tramw-avs Company can manipulate its dividends in The I-IOME SECHETARY: I think it is the same way. onl:r a fair thing to do. Hon. W. H. BARNES : Probably U1ey pro­ Hon. \V. H. BARXES: Then where· i ., the vided for a sinking fund as well. consistency in your argun1ent? '!'he_ HOME. SEQRETARY: I have no The HOME SECRETARY: Because: the obJectiOn to that bemg ·done, but the sinking railways are losing money and the trams fund sho_uld not be of such a character a~ are making a large amount of money. t•~ penahse the people who are making the d1v1dends for them .. That is the point. Hon. Mr. MORGAX: One is losing money by members must admit that the dividends that bad management and the other is making h_ave been r:'ade by the Tramways Company money by g-ood management. One' i·, extra­ smce 1897 nght up to the present time have vagcLnt and thP other is not. been made out of the people of Brisbane. The HOME SECRETARY: In onP case Hon. W. H. BARNES: It is quite evident the money is going into the pockets of the you don't kno all the facts. State. whereas. en the other hand. '"' find : The HOME SECRETARY: Wr;ll, that thpse dividends are largely going to the 1s what we want to get at and if the hon other sid<' of th<' world, and that the people ~ember can_ elucidate the ~atter this even: here have to pay theqe large dividend,.. To mg1 or as hme goes on, I will be perfectly come back to the point where I was inter­ satisfied. If the hon. gentl~man can give rupted, it is our duty a.t the pres.mt time any reasons, the Government will be satis­ to the people who are creating the dividends fied to change the basis on which they work to do something for thes.; people-that is, but I feel quite satisfied that the hon. gen: the people in and around Brisbane. In the tleman cannot do that. I might point out second place. we have to consider th~ local to hon_. :nembers that the people who passed authorities who I cited just 'now as being !he or1gm~l Tramway Acts were people here vitally interested to the extent that they m the e1ghth and tenth Parliaments of should not be burdened with the cost of Queensland. At the present time there are making the roads on which the trams run. only four people living who were in the ThPn we have the shareholders to consider. Assembly in 1882 when the first Tramway Thev are consid<>red to the extent that they Act was passed. They are Sir S. W. Griffith can· enjoy a dividend up to 8 per cent. now President of the High Court Si; Mr. MACARTNEY: How do you make that Pope Cooper, Chief Justice of Queen~land, out? How can they enjoy a dividend up :\1r. P. McLean, and Mr. De. Burgh to 8 per cent. under this Bill? [Hon. J. Huxharn. Bri8bane Tramway [24 JULY.] Far~s Bill. 1211

The H0::\1E SECRETARY: The hon. public. the local authorities have been loJd,,d o·cntleman is dealing with the dividends that up 'Tith obligations which have been imposed ~vere declared on the share value. \Ye say ln return for the faeilities granted. If this that the dividend should be declared on the };;]] goes thr0ugh, the local authoritiec' ;;ill market value of the tramways, and that is be relieved of those lmrdcns. and I kno'l whv we put the dividend at 5 per cent. It thev "ant to be relieYcd of them. Hon. is i10t on the share value at all. Owing to 1ncfnbers opposite n1u:-.t re,!lj"e that ~hey that very reason the dividend may come up h'lve an obLgation t·es consiclercd in connection with this ma-tter­ in a yery sati'·,factorv position. Such lH:·ing first the dividend makers (the people) ; sec­ the case< whv is tl;ere all this cry about ondly. the local authorities; and. thirdly, the rc•pucliation, 'confiscatic.n. and brC'adr of shareholclns. The Government then step in trust'? 1 had sen' to n,r, by Y!r. Badger cer­ and introduce a Bill to protect the interests of tain criticisms which appeared in the Lon­ all three factors. I maintain that that is hat J(•ll parwrs in conn0ction -with thP BilL th• Bill is doing. Now, the people for some :\Ioreovcr. our local papers ha,·e take:a the time past have bec•n complaining about the ~irlc of the Trann\ ays Con1pany, bnt our lack of accommodation on the tram\vaYs. loc'tl papers ;;houlcl see that the ,_.eople who Xct onlY haYe they be<>n doing that in Il1Y arfl Inaking· ·dividPnd:;. for the papers d1ould ti;ue alone, but they did it in the time of have fair trcatnwnt •lt their hands. I md, provide sufficient room ~t cert.tin hourg on :con had to pay "ld. from Xorth Quay over tht:, raihYays? to M0lbourn0 str0et, and I suppose that was the shortest s0dion uf the lot. I reccgnise The HOME SECRETARY: That is not that under tlw 1882 Act a provi

r:a'" through the House·. I have here a rernedied forthwith. But an examination of ta bui a ted statement, showing that large sums that petition reveals that there was one of moncv haye been sent awav to the old large trust company among the 140 names country, "from the inception of "the company on it, holding 7,806 ordinary shares, and 518 to the present time. For the information of preference shares. The smallest private hon. member~, I will just read some of the shareholder I could see there held 800 shares. figur,'s showing what monev has gone home I saw no indication of the "poor widow." to the London directorate. 'In 1907 a sum of I must admit that in the 140 names I did £7.000, or N]ual to 10 per cent. of the not not see anything to indicate poverty. There rcYenue, wa e sent home. It was not m a v hl' in these times a question of stress ta kPn out of the net revenue, but it was owing to the high cost of living and other takt·n ont of the general expenses. Another reasons. but certainly there was nothing to year there wa1t home, and in the people of Brisbane, absolutely. For the ::ear following that another £30,000 wcnt that reason, I say that we should lay our­ hf'me. But the plum of the whole lot is selves out to do something for them-not this: In 1915 the sum of £58.000 went home only the people living in Brisbane, but those t:> the directorate in the old country in addi­ who come here from the country. I think l!On to the net reYcnuc of £109.8S8, rcpre­ that will appeal to the hon. men:ber for ~<·ntiL;{ 53 per cent. of general p:~.::nm::Je''· Aubigny, !Jecause he will have a number of There ha been no Je,s than £268,000 sent people coming down and he would not want home to the London directors irom 1907 to them to pay a heavier rate in the future 1916. or cqp a! to 118 per cent. of net reYenue. than the:· have done in the past. ::Ylr. MACARTNEY: For the directors them­ 1\Ir. MooRE: \Ye will have to pay a tax se1Yei? '? to keep the trams going. /Laughter.) The HOME SECRETARY: It went homE>. The HOME SECRETARY: Oh, no. you It may be a ss·stem of manipulation. I am will not have to do that, because I think ''"t well vero;cd in hig-h finance. The Hon. we will make ample provision whereby the l\lr: Bren~nall was a nwmber of a deputation whole of the rPsponsibility will be borne by wl11ch wa1ted on ~Hr. Dcnham. the late Pre­ the people of Brisbane. At the same time, miE>r, and I think thnic thE' leader of the if they have to face losses they will also face Opposition was 011 th:>t deputation. profits. These are times when one venture ::Yir. ::YIACARTNEY: Ko. I was not. may be bad and another good. 'l'h.; H01v1E SECRETARY: The Hon. Mr Hon W. H BARNES : Where arc the rail­ Bren'nall deliberately stated that there wa~ "' ay profits? too much mystery and not enough public knowl?dll"e >:bout the company and its rights The H0:\1E SECRETARY: If the hon. and hm1tabons. and that nothing came to gentleman would help us, we could soon th,. sm·face. That is the case. ~ever mind Jix that so that we could have a profit. My wh 't y~u ask J¥fr. Badger, he cannot give advice to the chareholclers is to get a move yon •he mformahon. I have cone-'pondencc in on pretty lively, or they will not have much "hi eh ::Y~r. Badger ,;r,,,·s he regrets that he chance between now and 1920. Let us deal ~ar.Hot gn·<' 1t at the prPsent time. thus show· again with the question of how the State mg that ::Yfr. Badger does not want to avoid has treated the company. From. 1896 it has trou!Jle and ~nnecossary expensn. Surely, if had a leasP of land that ha' beAn a very l'hr. Badgl'r wanted to save valuable property. It has suited them very [7.30 p.m.] trouble for himself and avoid un- "<'11 and enabled them to get their dividend c. necessary expense. it would ha ':e \Ye Jind that the lease which was entered b:en a reasonablB thing for him to have into on 25th April, 1896, made this very gn·en m~ the information. because it might hand·,ome provision: It was for thirty years, hav<' fac;htated matters later on. I have no th" sum for the first ten years to be £230. wish ,vhatev€'r to involve the Government for the second ten years £306. and for the or the tramway shareholders in unnecessarv third ten years £383. A further lease was litigati:m. For l~at particular reason, "r granted on the 31st M arch. 1904. for a term thmk Jt was a fan· enough thing for Mr. of twenty-two years and fifty clays at £40 Badgce:· to have stated: "This is mv infor­ per annum, to make the two leases expire !"ation, and I am onh- too pleased 'to give concurrentlv. To-dav these two leases from 1t to :· ou;'' The withholding of it would the Railway Department cost the Tramways md1cate e1ther that he is trving to "nut the Company only £423. So that between the ]Jluff " on me. or else \vas seeking to shareholders, the local authoritiel. and the mvolve both the Govf'rrmwnt and share­ Government I fajl to see that there is any holdc•rs in laFg·e expense. I have pointed cause for complamt by the Tramways Com· out how the chrectors are treating their share­ pany. I have to admit frankly enough that hold''rs. I am gh·en to understand that the the scheme that will be evolved out of this shar··h.olclcro have n.o power. If they have, Fares Bill will be the basis of the Purchase there rs plenty of time to a'sert themsf'lves, Bill in 1920. and ask why this large sum of monev has Hon. \V. H. BARNES : One of your collea­ been sent home for the directors there• 'to do g-ues the other night said it would not affect what they think fit with. denying to the it. shard10lders even a larger dividend than thov The HOME SECRETARY: My colleague ar: getting at the present tim€'. During has thought better of it. We have gone into thrs sesswn, and soon after this Bill was the Bill and are satisfied that one is the announced. we received a petition. Now, I corollan of the other. So vou see that we hke t? g1ve all the care T can to petition.". have do;-,e a Yery fair thing by the Tramways Esre.crally wa' that so with this one. because Company as far as the Government are con­ I was given to understand that the share- eerned. On the other hand, I do not know 1IOldPrs were comparatively poor people. and that the pPople, the charitable institutions, I W< nted to see if the matter could not be or the returned soldiers are getting much [Hon. J .. Huxham. Brisbane Tramway [24 JULY.) Fares Bill. 1213 from ::\lir. Ba·dger. \Vhen applying on behalf scheme on sound lines. I do not expect much of the Blind, Deaf. ;nd Dumb Institution­ from them of their own free will; but the and generally all are interested in the blind House should pass this Bill so that for the children-we could not g-et Mr. Badger to nrxt two years, at any rate, the people will concede anything to those youngsters. \V e have some ease off the high charges and had to pay for our trams. The same thing some addition to the short sections from is being· done in regard to returned soldiers. which they have been suffering for some time They can get one fare after they are dis­ back. charged, by going up to get their certificates Now, the cry has been going up about from Victoria Barracks, and it costs Mr. monopoly and confiscation and similar Badger 4d. a man. That is not very much. c•harges that have been brought against this On the other hand, as far as the Government Government for acting in the way they are are concerned, I maintain that they have doing. We have had it during this session, done their duty to the returned soldiers, and but it ha" not been a new cry. When the they are prepared to do even more in cerbin Government laid itself out to amend the cases. \Vorkers' Compensation Act we had the same Hon. \V. H. BARNES: Do you say you cry from th~ insurance companies. We had ha Ye done well by the returned soldiers? the same cry on the Land Act Amvndment Bill provirling for reasonable rentals, we had The HOYJ:E SECRETARY: I do. the same on the Chillagoe and Etheridge Hon. \V. H. BARNES: You mean in the R:.:ilways Bill, we had it also direct from miserable amount you provide for suits? Mr. Badger against Mr. Dcnham whGn he brought in his proposal in 1913. What I The HOME SECRETARY: Generally maintain about these cries is that thev are speaking, this State has done more for the inspired from this E11d to the old country returned soldiers than the other States; and in an endeavour to sheer the Government off \VC are quite prepared to do more. (Hear, from their direct duty to th~ people of Bris­ hear !) Those men who come back here, and bane and the State. I say that no people their dependents, will be treated as gener­ should have the right, no matter how power· ously as possible. There will be no begrudg­ ful they may be, to have cabled information ing that on the part of the people of Queens­ sent home with a view to having cables or land. I am certain the Government will not other information coming out to the effect begrudge anything we can do for those men that by doing as we are doing we are ruin­ when they come back. (Hear, hear!) ing the credit of the State. I feel perfectly certain that. notwithstanding the action we :\Ir. HARTLEY: Do vou think the Govern­ arc takinl.l' in this and other matters, people ment would stop their wearing a green in the old countrv will be as pleasE· cl to rosette? (Laughter.) invest their money' here in the future as in other place:., and, although we may have had The HOME SECRETARY: If they choose, these cries. raised, I am perfectly sati5fied they can wear an orange ro"ette or any that if Queensland opens up sufficient places colour they like; they can put on all the for the investment of monev and gives a colour·' of the rainbow. There is another reasonable return npon the rnoney invested, instance of how the Tramways Company we shall have capital coming over here as ha., treated the people who made the diYi­ in times gone by. At any _rate, if it does dends. In 1898-99 we had a system · of not come along we are qurte prepared to commutation tickets. Tho"'' commutation take the risk of it now. ~\s my friend the tickets were i•.sued at the rate of thirteen Minister for Railway states, the F"deral for h. Although the ·diYidends were going Government gives us more money than the up, we find this was reduced by 24 per cent. other States, recognising that Queen_sland is The net profit in thc"e y<·ar,, was, respectively, doino- the right thing: and considcrmg that £38,859 and £47,977. It was not a question t1H" ~urnbel~ of people- living here is increas­ of re·dur:ing them because they were not ing ,v0ar by :>ear. it makes one p0rfectl,v making profrts. They were making even satisfied. notwithstanding all the cat-calls better profits when they reduced this ad,-an­ goinf" round to the contrary, that !n the rw·d tage to the people, to which, I think, they deC'ade Queensland will bo well m adva11ce were entitled. So, altogether, Mr. Badger o£ the more largely populated States. I and the shareholders ha vc more reason to be hope so. thankful to the people of Brisbane than to accuse the Government of being guilty of )I ow, I want to refer to a few other facts, all the crimes in the calendar simply because and then I will take my seat. Mr. Denham, the~ want to readjust the bad .. tate of affairs when speaking on the Land Bill in 1910, which has been in existence up to the present cited an authoritv which I think will be tirne. r0cognised here--that is, Sir Samuel Griffith. Now, there is another thing I would like 1\-Ir. Denham stated- to bring before hon. members. The hon. " 'I'hat great authority adhered to the member for Bulimba was twitting me just prineipl" that Tepudiation was wrong, nu .v as to the inexactitude of my figures as but under certain circumstances Parlia­ to the liability of the company. \Ve have ment asserts that even contract;; may be been endeavouring to get it through the varied if necessarv in the public interests Government Statistician, but even he cannot -(Hear. hear !)-"alwavs avoiding as far get as much out of the Brisbane Tramways as possible injustice to the individual." Company authorities as the Commonwealth Statistician gets. )Jow if vou sa¥ that this is a contract be­ }ir. BREXNAX : Amend the Companies Act twee;., ourselves "and the Tramways C0mpany, and make them give it to you. let it remain at that. Even contracts, Sir Samuel · Griffith said, might be varied in The HOJ\IE SECRETARY: Well, we will thP public interests, and will anybody say prob"bly try that later. Now, what we are that at the present time the public interests endeavouring to do is to see if we cannot do not demand this alteration? I have con­ get the company to readjust their prE'scnt sulted individuals who use~ th<: trams and Hon. J. Huxham.] 1214 Brisbane Tram1cay [AS~E:!I!IBLY.] Fares Bill. th<: l?cal ttuthorities, and I think it is quite this Bill. The Bill is a very important one, sufficient to say that the public are behind and it deals with varied interests. It deals the Government in getting this Bill and its with the public interests, as the Home Secre­ corollary Bill through as soon as possible. tarv has said. It deals with the interests Hon. W. H. BARNEB: What was the object of the company as such-a comp-any which of tho visit of the 1ocal authorities? Did daims that thev have a contract with the they say anything to you about fares? Government It deals with the intere.•ts of the Government, and with the interests of The HOME SECRETARY: I cannot say the local authorities. Now, the hon. gentle­ they did. They recognised that the basis of man has not taken much pains to indicate fares and sections was a v~ry fair basis on to this House just what change in the law which they could assess the value of the this Bill makes. He de•alt in a. lot of whole system. But the hon. member does generalities, and he made some irrelevant not want the local authorities or 11nybodv otatements in regard to money that has E'ISP to take it over. " passed from Queensland to London, in what Hon. W. H. BARNES: The local authorities, n;anner he did not disclose. The money, he I take it, only want a fair deal. savs. reached the directors on the other side. The HOME SECRETARY: Thev want h;t the purpose for which they received the to gf !", this trarnway concern at a fair~ pricf•, monev has not been stated. He leaves the rnatt€r, so far as he \Vas concerned, just Hon. W. H. BARNES : At a just price. a jumble, and you could take anything you The HOME SECRETARY: And I do liked out of it. It may be that the money not want anything more than that, and if "'"'' sent home for the purpose of repaying the Bystem is taken over by the Government loans. It m a v be the money was sent home ir is not with the intention of the Govern­ for distributi;Jn amongst the shareholders. ment's running it at a profit, but that the However, the hon. gentleman might have local auhorities shall run it and if rhere is you b€lie,·e that it was money which the any profit it -will go into further improve­ directors received for their own benefit. He ments in the metropolitan area. I think left the thing in a state of uncertainty, and that is a fair thing. I recognise that twelve I am sorry to say he has not dealt with the or thirteen local authorities round Brisbane matter in the large manner in which such cannot handle this matter as the Govern­ an important matter ought to be dealt with. ment can. \Ve simply hold it in trust, do The HoME SECRETARY: I do not know what all the pioneering work, and enable them to more information you want? It takes a lot take it as a going concern, whereas it would h<' difficult for them to make a deal with to satisfy you. the Tramways Company; it would prc>ent Mr. ::\IACARTXEY: In consequence of almost insuperable difficulties. the manner in which the hon. gentleman has dealt with the second reading of the BilL it There is another thing I want to refer to will be necessary for me to indicate, as early and I would impress it upon hon. members: as possible, just \vhat this Bill means. In 'Ye• have to recognise that when this fran­ the first place, we find that a number of ehi'e w,B giwn in the ye2rs 1882 and 1890, sections of the Act of 1882, and of the it v.-1.~· ~f neeations back. TakE~ mv own case. amending Act of 1890. arc repealed, and it I an1 fiH:,7-SCYE'n y0ar~ of age. { would not will just be as well to see just what those ha' e had a chance to vote at that time. sections ar<>. Section 58 of the first-named It \'• '" the ·day of plural voting. It was tl1<• rlay 1·:h•·n the women had not a vote Act ;, repealed, and on looking at that sec­ tion wP find it provides- -a!'d we all r~cognise that the ·women are entitled to vote ; I do not think there is an " The company shall, ·pursuant to regu­ hon. member on the other side of the House lations from time to time made bv them who will say they are not-and yet this fran­ subj cct to the provisions of this Act be chio,e takes us baek thirtv-six years. \Ve entitled to charge for the conveyance of have to recognise that when it was put en·ry pasoenger upon the tramway any through even those who put it through could sum not exceeding twopence per mile not see the inadvisability of it or what would or fraction of a mile." happen tn Prisbane in a lapse of thirty-six This rcprPsents a serious alteration of the years. I say that we are only doing justice compan:;·'s conditions. Then, section 61 is to th'] people. in this city. Considering that r0pealed, and .that section provides- ~hey hav<; bmlt ~p the tramways, consider­ " The foregoing restrictions as to fare" mg that It Is thmr money that has built it which the company may lawfully demand up, we should at the earliest possible moment ehall not extend to a special car, but see that a fair thing is done for them. I shall apply only to the ordinary cars have very much pleasur'l in moving that appointed from time to time for the the Bill be now read a second time and I conycyance of pas~'engers." sincerely hope that hon. members a'pposite, when they analyse the whole facts of the \Ve find that section 78 is also repealed, and case, will recognise that we are doing justice in mentioning section 78 I think it onlv to all pple concerned. We are doing nccessarv to call the attBntion of the House just!ce to the local authoriti(!s; we are doing to the fact that section 78 seeks to provide JUStice to i"he shareholders; and, what is the GovE'rnment with a remedy for most of more, we are doing justice to ourselves by thE' particular matters which they have com­ doing what is right. to the peonle of Bris­ plained of without having recourse to a bane .who have rep~atedly asked for a Bill special Act of Parliament to repudiate a of this sort. I hope the Bill will receive a contract that Parliament has made with the speedy passage, and will find a place on the company in days gone by. I call special statute-book very shortly. attention to section 78, which provides- GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! " Subject to the conditions prescribed in the next following section, the Gover­ ::\1r. MACARTNEY: I do not desire to nor in Council may, by regulations m;,ke any apology for saying a few words made in respect of any tramway or pro­ in connection with the second reading of posed tramway constructed under the [Hon. J. Huxham. Brisbane Tramway [24 JULY.] Fares Bill. 1215

authority of this Act, vary or suspend and certain othBr considerations of a like any or all of the provisions of the under­ kind. It also provides for tramway exten­ mentioned section, that is to say- sions and forfeiture to the Government if Sections 28 to 32, inclusive." those extensions are not carried out, and a penalty of £1,000 is provided for certain I may say that deals with the construction failures on thB part of the company, which Df tramways- is not included in the original Act. It alw " And sections 49 to 61, inclusive." s<>ems to place in the hands of the individual the right to call fc;r proceedings which may ·which d<>als with the maintenance and con­ involve the seizure of the undertaking. 'That. duct Df traffic on the lines. briefly stated, is the nature of this Bill. The " (2) Every such regulation shall, after hon. g<>ntleman, in dealing with it, frankly public 'tion in the 'Gazette,' have the admitted that the Bill referrBd to a,; ihB Bris­ force of law." bane Tramway Purchase Bill is a corollary Penalties are also provided. Under section to this Bill, which is a contradiction of the '79 and the fDllowing s~etions, something in statement made bv the ::Ylinister for Rail­ the nature of judicial provisions are made wavs. The Home. Secrl'tarv said that this under y·hich tltG company and other persons Bill is the machinerv bv ~vhich the value intertcthod of dealing with many of the things have some effe<'t on it. thP hon. gentleman referred to without Mr. MACART:;:\I"EY: We have got to look ha .-ing r<>course to a special Act of Parlia­ at this buomess from the history of the leg!;­ m to look at it to see if the :\1r. :'viACARTl\EY: The section speaks [8 p.m.] action of the Government is likely for itself. We also find that section 8 of to effect the erooit of the State, the Act of 1890 is repeal<>d, and when we and from the point of view of ordinary look at that section we find it provides- abstract justice so far as the CDmpany is " Except with the consent of a cmn­ concerned. The company appealed tD this pany in that behalf first had and Hou~e for leave to be heard at the bar of obtained, the powers conferred upon the the IIous8 bv counsel to state their case. Governor in Council bv the sevent:v­ Hd the House to !"(•,,t not be exercisable so as to reduce the their judgments on the statements then made. far,,., which the companv mav lawfullv and this House would have been the richer in demand for the conveyi;.nce "Of passeri:­ the infor.nation necessarv to enable us to gers upon its tramway, as prc·scribed by give the whole particulfirs fair considera­ the fifty-eighth section of the said Act." tion. It was truthfully said by the hon. gentleman }Jr. BRENNAN' Why don't you table his that section 8 affected section 78, to which Yif'WS? I have referred. Mr. MA(;ARTNEY: We havE> to ·deal with The Hm!E SECRETARY : It wiped it out the historv of ti amwa v construction in Bris­ altogether. bane, and. me7lbcrs on' both sides must admit thht for vears past in Brisbane we have h:1d ::\Ir. ::\IACAR'TNEY: I am not quite pre­ a tramwav sv"rcm which is not ben--'f pared to go so far as the hon. gentleman. equallcd-~n an, other part of the Commo:l­ The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: How far wealth. (GDveJ:nment dissent.) It does not will you go? make any difference what hon. gentlemen 1\Ir. MACARTNEY: I would like to say sav. It has bPB'l arlmitted by the Home ~PC· that thi3 is a matter of considerable techni­ rctarv that the tram system is a good and cality, and it is a matter on which an hon. well !nanaged one. \Ve' all know that it is a member should be allowed to proceed with clean svstcm, and it has been conducted in his speech in sequence. such a wav that-take it all round-the people of Brisbane have been proud of their tram­ The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: I am asking ways. (Hear, hear !) The history of the busi­ you a very reasonable question. I say sec­ ness is not a very lengthy one, and anyone tion 8 and section 78 are quite contra­ whose memory can take them back can dictory. r<'membPr the time when the trams started ::\Ir. MAC_'I.RTNEY: I dealt with them first. There are a good many young men on rind passed on. Hon. members on the other tho othf'r side of the House, and they will side have an opportunity of saying what not remember when the trams started, but they think about it. The Bill also provides thev will hear wha.t is being said hPre. The that sections of the tramway shall not be hist'orv, so far as it is necessary to be stated less than 1 mile in length, but it does not in cori:nection with this Bill, starts in 1890. At provide that they shall not be more. It also that time horse cars were running in Brisban<>, provides that the charge for each section and thPv provided a service which was not shall be 1d. It may be less, but no pro­ altogether satisfactory. We know tJ-:at the vision is made for a minimum. I do not company which was running that scrv1ce was know what the object is of putting the Bill nDt a particularly strDng one financially .. It was in this particular form. The Bill also pro­ recognised at the time that the sf'rvwe was vides for the revision of routes and sections, not the up-to-date one which a city like Bri~­ and it provides a mode for detBrmining the bane should 1:ossess. The company w;,s value of the tramway undertaking which is strug-rr]ing, the 'service was not what it ought not to include manv Df the factors which to he~ and . it was the general desire of nll ordinarily go to mak'e it of value as a going and sundrv that an up-to-date systmn should con<:crn, and it specifically excludes goodwill be provided, and that persons with money Mr. Macartne.y.] 1216 Brisbane Tramway [ASSEMBLY.] Fares Bill should be invited to come forward and assist authorities have power to purchase the in establishing such a system. The people of whole of the existing tramways from the Brisbane failed to realise their responsibili­ company after the period of fourteen ties in t>hat d.ircction, and not many came years. If this improved mode of locomo­ forward with ti- eir money to hfiered werP not sufficient le, ment {'ompany pU!·pose spending, if this attract the inve,tor. An appeal W«S made t0 Bill is pas,ed, over £200,000 in laying the Government of the daJ to offer better down cable trams. Of course, these conditions. One of the difficulties st<1ndin::; matters must he looked at from a busi­ in the way wns in relation to the provisi~n ness point of view, and it is only natural giving the Government r.ower to reduce tl:e that lenders will not be disposed to ad­ fa1·es, and th~~e were B.lso difficulties abm,-, vance money unless they see some reason­ transferring the undertaking to another com­ able prospect of the undertuking paying. pany, and also in connection with the trans­ It is, therefore, considered that fourteen fer of the tramways to the local authorities. years, looking at the large amount of The H(,l\rE SECRETARY : They strn­ clause is purposely worded in this way, nlent, and ne-:sotiations proceeded \vith the-­ so that the Governor in Council shall local authoritiee. After a considerable period have the power to deal with every Cfise of negotia.tion and arrangement tht> Govern­ upon its merits. I trust there will be no ment decirled :u introducu a Bill in 1890 fr,r objection raised to this clause, because I the purpose vf ahc>ring the conditions of the look upon it as a fair and reasonable Tramwavs Act of 1882 in such a wa v as would proposition which should be acceded to, encourage peq)le to in-,o.-est money in the considering the large. benefits that will u::dertakir:g. l have here a cop\ of thP. be conferred upon the public by this deb,lte:' which took place in this House in special mode of conveyance." JC90. :11r. GGLLIKS: There were no Labour men­ Speaking ill Committee at a later wrge of oc·rs in th~ Eome then. the Bill, thE "Minister for Railwap siud- ,. The ground on which the concession :.1r MACARTKEY: I do not propose to was based \vas a fair and reasonable one. cnt('r into any E-!,d~ i.;;:.;;ues. I propose to deJ1 The originul provision held good with ;trrqrhtforwardly wirh what is " lel)gthy regarrl to horse tramways, which were tu·hnical matte-· for thA benefit of other nwm­ still ,ubject to compnlsory purchase by bers of the House, as well as with the view the local authorities within fourteen of arriving at a. just de~ision. In 1890, 1hr> vcars: hut it would be muo­ expect any company to invest the an;onnt dore 1.-:nmack. of capital required for an electnc or Mr. KIRWAK: \Ve remember him all right. cable tramway subject to that condition. '·Ten ·bob' a week." He had been informed that it would cost the Metropolitan Trfimways Company :Mr. M.A CARTNEY: It does not mat~ 'r £204,000 to provide for the ectablishment what the Minister may have beeH in ~Pt> of the cable svstem in Brisbane. The opinion of sor.r.;_- pPople. H0 1vas appoint responsible Minister of the State. find as was for fourteen years, six of which had ~u{:h he cnter.;cl into an e,rrangen1ent. an.J alreadv expired;· and it was not likely as it is on record I am going to read it. Th;s that thev would undertake that expendi­ is what ::.11r. Unmack said- ture if thev could be mfide to hand the " I shouh "aY that the 8th ciause en­ tramwavs oYC'l' to the local authorities at deavours to remedy a, small d~frct in the the encf of the other eight years. It was Act. By !he 58th clause the company ;~ originally propose.d by those concerned bound to charge a maximum fm·c ~or that the time shonld be extended to passengers. Under the 78th and 79t1J thirtv vean and none of thf'm desired sections of the originc.l Act the Governot to go 'bel m~ twentv-onP vears; but on in Council has power to v!!ry thoce consultation with the local authorities charges, an·1 it is considered that wherA interested it wus decided to make the a rompany Las gone io for very con~i-der­ time twcntv-five years. The period, how­ nble <'xpcnditure, so long as they are ever. was cnot fixed- as applying to all bound to c maximum, thev should have companies. Hon. members would notice a voiee in tl·,, reduction of fares. Se~t:un that it would be within the power of the :iO nrovides a remedv for another small Governor in Council to grant terms not omi"ssion in the orig1nal Act. The 65th exceeding twenty-five yeDI's, so that every section provides that in the event of a e:; .. e in future would be decided on its company being under reconstruction, find merits. He had given a promise to the ceasing to work any particular line for Metropolitan Tramways Company, in three months, it would be liable to seizure view of their expenditure of £204,000, by the corporation 'rhe clause provides that in thP event of the clause passing that it shall be exempt under those cir­ they should have twenh·-five years." cumstances, and also in the event of a winding-up order being made. Section In speaking on clause 8 of the Bill the 12 is, perhaps, the one !.hat is most im­ Minister for Hailways said- pm·tant as far as giving powers to com­ " The intention was not to allow any panies is concerned. Under the 84th reduction of the farrs below the mini­ S"ction of the principal Act the local mc~m, excc>pt . with the consent of the [.ill r . .ill acartney. [24 JVLY.] Fares Bill. 1217

company, because it would be un'air to to the rescuP of the compan)T at that tim<>. allow 'mch an interference with the A con1pany \vas formed, and, after 1nuch profits of the company where a large 1:cgotiation, the consent of the local authori­ amount of capital \Vas spent on the ties was obtained. ;y1r. ::\:IcMaster, the pre· electric or the cable system. 'The maxi­ sent mayor of Brisbane, was in the House mum was fixed; hut, as a matter of fact, at the time and awJepted the amendment the Trarnways Uon1pany at present run­ 1 .ado in the Act of 1882. 'The Orders in ning in Brisbane had not approached Council were i~sued under th<· prov1s10ns the maximum at any time. 'Those things nf the Act of 1890, the capital was obtained, must be regu:ated b,· the amount of nnd in clue course the present system of traffic." tramv a vs was laid in Brisbane. From that c'.~te I "think it is fai1· to 'ay that the con-, In the upper Houoe, the Bill was intro­ .-eniencc of tlw residents of Brisbane h•.1s duced hy tlw Hon. T. J. Byrne,, who was been serve·d as it :never was before. A~ then Solicitor-GenE'ral, and, in dealing with I have said t.he syst£m has been generally the subject, he said, as reported on page 194 approyed of. The Act indicates that nothing of "Hansard" for 1890, .-olume lx.- more nor le.,s than a statutory contract was " I would refer hon. gentlemen to sec­ entered mto between the company and the tion 58 in the principal Act. which pro­ StatE'. There cannGt be anv doubt about vides- that. • ' The company shall, pursuant to The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: 'I'he Act regulations from time to time nmdo by i1N:licates that'? them subject to the provisions of this Act, be entitled to charge for the con­ ::\Ir. .\IIACARTl\EY: The Act is verv Ye~ a ne-e of cver.y pas~Pnger upon the dear evidence. in Yiew of what afterwar-ds tr"mway e.ny eum not exceeding two transpired, that a contract was entered pence per mile or fraction of a mile.' into under the provisions of the Act, which indicate that certain representations It is rath'oible for any so much diecreclit on themselw•s and on the c:ompany t ' make the alterations it re­ :State. quired to make, under the principal Act, and, ther,_';forc, it has been found nec,Js­ The l'llEMIER: Do you contend that it affects the capital vahw of the undertaking? sary to give thes~ new powers. E•·ery power proposed b be given is absolutel~c Mr. MACARTNEY: I contend that the necec"arv, and ~ think we were a little conditions laid down in thib Bill arc going too timid when •;. e first authorised the to materially affect the terms of the pur­ construction of tr ~~mv~ a> s, and now that chase. The Home Secretary frankly stated we :-cc they am a groat boon to the that the other Bill wl>ich comes after this public we ought to give them eYerY i.; the corollRrv of the Bill now before the facility for the ccmstrudion of those House, and i n~licated that he hoped by this works,· at the "ame time providing Biil to so fix the price that the local authori­ against their grm,ing into a monopoly. ties would get a good thing out of it. I think thf' DiE meets with a great That deals prettv much with the history many required alwrations, and ther<>fore of the legislation. tho formation of the <·nm­ will commend its~·!! to the conoideration panv, and tlH' institution of the electric of the House." trams in Btisbane. I must say that it has Thc3e speechc· indicate the object for which been !ny uxperience a~ .a citizen that the the Act of 1890 w.:ts pa,sed, the reason why 1'ramv.ays Company has ·uffercd much in­ the condition' in the Act of 1C32 failed to Melbourne. and was coming forward caused by the delays ir1 connection with the

1918-4 F Mr. jJfacartney. J 1218 Brisbane 1'ramwa.y [ASSEMBLY.] Fares Bill.

le;onstruction of Sta'lley street. For nearly number of shares; 314 hoLd from 50 to 100 t:'o years Stankv •ll·eet has not been shares, •'qual to. 24.38 per cent. of the aggre­ tnoronghly O]Jen for the public us£'. The gate.; 20?. hold from 101 to 220 shares, repre­ company has bc'en delayed for a period of sentmg 1?.~8 per cent. o£ the aggregate; and twelve or 01ght0en months in connection with th0 remammg 161 person:o hold 201 shares or the. provision of remedih for the congestion m·er. equal to 12.5 per cent. of the aggregate wlw.h has been comp]ainE'd of. The hon. number of shares. In those 161 shareholders g-entleman mmt know that that is the case are included trust companies, who have in­ ~nd that t~e delay. which has taken plac~ vested mml•··y for families. The average 'll other -drrr·ctwns has consr·derablv handi­ number of shares held bv an individual share­ :cy might have been omitted m a king a total of 120;882. The aggregate fro~n h1s speech, as they gave no information number of shares, therefore, is 195,000, and, as whrch would enable anvone to arrive at these are fully pard up, that would make concrete facts. I must plead ignorance as to the capital of the company eomewherc about the detail,, of the whole business. The infor­ £900.000. The Qucen·,land Trustees Com­ mation ha•· not been given to me beyond pany hold 6,971 shares and the Union Trustee what I asked for. I asked for information Company hold 500 shares for clients who 111\l as to the dividends paid on include wi-dows and orphans. I unde~·stand [8.30 p.m.] prl'ference shares and ordinary it is a fact that there were no sh:wes held shares, and I ha Ye given the in _Brisbane _before the year 1902, when !he facts to hon. members just as I have Brisbane regrster was opened. In one year a been able to obtain them. I have been total number of 8,000 shares were trans­ inform0d, with regard to the fares paid at ferred to the Brisbane register. the present time, that, notwithstanding the authority given in the Act to charge up to The HON!il SECRETARY: What did they take the maximum rate of 2d. per mile, the per share then? averag-e distance for 1d. is slightly over a Mr. MACARTNEY: I have no knowledge m~le. The awrage -distance for 3d. is 3.78 of the ups and downs of the market. The mrlos, and the longest distance travelled for hon. gentleman w~nts to have this' property 3d. is 4~ miles. The hon. gentleman referred valued on the basrs of an undertaking. and to the commutation tickets. I am informed he wants to limit the dividends to be that they are available on six different routes, paid to a rate or the value of the under­ and with the use of those it is possible to taking. He ignores the fact that the travel over 2 miles for 1.2d. shares are not now in the hands of the Mr. PoLWCK: Why arc you objecting to origh1al holders of t'venty years ago, but penny sections, then? have often chana,ed hands as ordinarv cur­ rent securities. The proposal the hon. gentle· Mr. MACARTNEY: I am informed also mal! makoo will reduce the value of the that there has been no increase in fares undertaking to the sharehoLders who have beyond the fares originally a-dopted, not­ bought their shares in the open 'market. It wrth,tandmg- the fact that the tramway is SLJgg<•·,ted that the shares are held bv companies in other parts of Australia, during bloated capitalists-that large numbers o'f the war period, have found it necessary to shares are held by big men who are extract­ materially increase their fares. ing the life-blood from the people of Bris­ A GovERNMEOs of the Labour Government. I There ;:re forty-eight sections open for rpmcmhf'r, when he ·was leaving Brisbane in trallic, and the average length is over 1 1916. he m>tde an address at a farewell func­ mile. There are nine sections which are tion given to him by the merchantmen of nnder 1 mile, three which are over 1~ miles, Brisbane. during which he said- and eight which are over 1~ miles. The " It will be my endeavour to impress nine, I am informed. arc cituated in the busv on the British people thQ need of invest­ parts of th<' citv. where the traffic is heavy ing capital in those oversea dominions, and the cost of maintenance high. The particularly Queensland. It wi;1 be my sections have been in existence for Years duty to bring under their (the British and yt'an, and have be to spo1k, in COLlfr'!tition with the, confine my remarks to the Labour party railwa,-. \Yhr·n the whole thing was gone into of Australia-are a party of sane and and discussed from eYery point of view, Mr. rational persons. They form c-onstitu­ Leahy discovered-and quite rightly 'a-that tional Governments, and the word 'con­ the construction of the line alongside tht' fiscation' is not known to them. I say railwr.y only tended in one dir<'ction, and that beeause there is a good deal of mis­ that '.Yas to bring extra traffic to the railway. apprehension with regard to our legis­ Anvone who remembers i;he conditions which lation. It is misrepresentation to say Auehcnflower and the northern part of that we are prepared to appropriate or 'Toowong were in before that line was con­ confiscate anybody's property." structed. will realise that thn immense change which has taken place has been more by Kow, unfortunately, we have had before the Teason of the tramwav constTuction than House several Bills that trend in that par· anythin« 0lse, inasmuch" as the change took ticular direction. I say it is unfortunate place in the neighbourhood of the railway for t·he credit of the Statc; that it should be and brought to the railway additional custom so more particularly having regard to the that probably would have gone out in some tr~nd towards repudiation indicated in cer­ other direction. tain directions. The hon. gentleman is pro­ Mr. PETERSON: The railway fares around bablv going to London in the very near the metropolis do not pay. futm:e, and, as I have pointed ot!t to-night, the groat bulk of this tramway undertaking Mr. MACART:'\EY: I do not know very is owned by people on the other side. Is it a much ahout the railwav fares around the fair and just thing that the hon. gentleman metropolis, but I know" that, although the should get up here and say that he is only Minister for R!lilwav'l the other night stated looking after the interests of the local people, that the railway fares were in no ease in and does not care what happens to the State excess of 1d. per mile. I have had instances creditor, the person who provided the money pointed out to m<' where tho railways are that has been necessary to provide this charging at least 2d. per mile, and even 2d. undertaking for the use of the people of for half a mile. Brisbanc:? Is that an honourable attitude The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Quote them. to adopt? Mr. MACARTNEY: Probably they will The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Who said be quoted by some other hon. member. I that? do not know that my time is such that I Mr. MACARTNEY: I am referring to 'Can go further into the matter. the speech made by the Home Secretary, The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: We will give The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: He said you an extension. they would get their money back treble. Mr. Macartney.] 1220 Brisbane Tramway [.\.SSE:YIBLY.] Fares Bill.

Mr. MACARTNEY: It is a point of view root of the matter, which is that the that very serious consideration should be Queensland Government is using its power given to it by members on both sides of the to do something which no company m· House, in view of the times to come. individual would be allowed to do in any The SECRE'rARY FOR RAILWAYS: They have civilised country. \Vith a Government had th0ir money back trebled already, and capable of such conduct in even one they will get it back trebled again. instance, no enterprise in Queensland is safe; and we trust that the wide impli· Mr. MACARTXEY: The hon. gentlema.n cations of the case will assist the Bris­ referred to certain nC>wspaper extracts C'ircu­ bane company in secm·ing the support .of lated, apparently by the company, which he chambers of commerce and other bod!8s had recnived. I say that those extracts, in a protest ag·ainst the betrayal of although they are circulated by the company, confidence in statutory agreements.'' are the eotatcments of responsible financial journals of the old world. "The Investors' Guardian" makes a very short but important comment. It says- The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Obviously inspired. " This is a flagrant effort to alter the terms under which the company has con­ Mr. MACART::\fEY: The hon. gentleman structr-,1, equipped, and worked the may •·ay "obviously inspired." I am quite tramwavs. The reduction of the com­ prepared to admit the possibility that the pany's profits will reduce the commercial information was supplied by persons who are value of the undertaking and the price interested in the tramway undm·taking. that has to be paid for it, while it is There is no obj~ct in getting away from the proposed to pay in securities that at position. But the expressions here are the present would not command par value. editorial expressions which can be taken to The. attempt if per,isted in, must in­ reflect the opinion of the financiers on the evitablv dete;iorate the security in capital other side. invested in Queensland and damage the The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: The credit of that State." "Courier" gave the show away the other The " Glasgow Herald," an important paper, day by showing it was an advertisement. says- Mr. MACART:'\EY: I saw the asterisk in " It is unfortunate that anv action one paper, but I do not know in what paper should be contemplated by -colonial it was. authorities which may have the result of forfeiting the confid~nce which investors The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: The have g-enerallv shown in colonial invest­ ''Courier." ments and, a; a rule, with good cause." Mr. MACARTNEY: Nevertheless, the I quote those as showing the opinion that is sentiments expressed indicate the feelings of formed cor~oequent on acts such a' the Govern· the people on the other side and the risks ment of this State appear to be too ready we are taking in doing thi ... to carry out. The HO}!E SECRETARY: You must remember I do not propose to enter into ari:.· further that there are 2,366 papers in Greed Britain, di--cossion of the contents of the Bill, except and we have only had eleven comments from to sav that the clause with regard to the them. valuation of the und<'rtaking appears to me signifrcant. It makes no reasonable provision Mr. MACART::'\:EY: The papers are par· iu c~!rtain directions, and, without any reason ticularly connected with the ele0trical indus­ offer··d for it by the hon. member who tries-some of them-and papers relating to mov"d the second reading of the Bill, it inve~tmcnt generally. '' The Investors' Re­ exclud,-, the goodwill. Whether the goodwill vimv" 1,\ one; "Electrical Industries" is should be included or not is a matter of anotlwr; "The Railway News" is another; int0rpretation of the. original co~tr.act. If, ,. The British Australian" is a paper of under the interprdatwn of the orrgmal con­ gener'11 circulation. "The Financial vVorld" tr.et, tho company are entitled to co~sidera­ is a well-knm• n paper. "The vVestminstcr tion for good,yill, it is not a JUst thmg for Gaz1 tte" is a well-known paper also; so is the Government to decide that now. ''The Financial Kews" ; and even "The Times" has descended to express its opinion The SEcRE'rARY FOR R.HLWAYS: \Ve are not on the matter. I do not propose to read all decidinG it nov.·. these opinions, but I will read one, at least. Mr. J\IACART::"i'EY: \Veil, the Tram,':ay I will read the c1mment which was made Fareo Bill is laying down a pr.incipl~ wh.1ch by "Electrical Industries" in relation to the the ban. member candidly admrtted IS gomg effect of the action that is being taken in to b0 a factor in determining the purchasing dealing with this undertaking- value when the time for purchase arrives tw<.> " If the Queensland Government carries years fr01n no"\v. out its present' intentions, it may save a The PREOIIER: That depends entirely on few thousand pounds at the expense of whether goodwill is a factor. the shareholders of the Tramways Com­ pany, but it will assuredly lose the price­ Mr. ::\IACARTNEY: Yee, I put it in that less asset of credit. It will be marked way. It is a subject I never went into, and in the financial world as a Government I am not able to give a legal opinion upon which holds sacred no baqrain which can it. I can only take tho hon. gentleman's be o1·erridden or undermined by legis­ remerks in introducing the Bill as to what lation. We do not yet know how the the subject of the Dill is. I say the object.of Australian Press regards this example the Bill is the excision of the right to whiCh of the purit~- and uprightness of a Labour ihe comnanv mav b·1 entitled, which may Government or how far the public shares t'-'1 unjtr t. It is- an act which may reflect the Labour view that all is fair in war rn the State. 'l'h:tt provision has been left against the capitalist. But British news­ out, and I haYe no doubt for a purpose. papers have already gone straight to the It is a question that may arise in connection [Mr. Macartney. Bri made for ordinary depreciation, the they are not prepared to consider the c_om­ ordinary reserves that arc rnado to meet pany, if ~he:. are npt ]Jreparecl _to consider snch ca>es. The hon. member points out tl1os" peor1le who have mvested m the com­ that this is a dividend on the value of the pany's share,,,, to havo some consideration for undertaking, which he says may amount the credit of Queensland and to protect the to sue· h-and -such a percentag-e on the share honour and credit of this State. capitaL How he has worked it out I fail 0PPO~ITIO!\' ::\IE~IBERS: Hear, hear ! t0 follow, He has not made it clear as he The SEC'RETARY FOR RAILWAYS ought to make it clear, and altogether it (Hon. J. A. Fihelly. Padrlington): I reg_ret seems to me a Chine'c puzzle with, perhaps, very much that thf' leader of the Opposition evil intent. has given us no information to guide us or The PRE}1!ER: No; no ovil intent. to pcrsuad" the Government to alter its policv. His point of view sePms to be that :\lr. :\1ACARTNEY: 'Cnfortunately, our good\vill is an assu_rcd factor in the final t>xpericncc does not help us to tru't our arrangement of a!Imrs between the Govern­ friends 011 th0 other sidf'. Now, I find that ment and the Tramways Company. He has the J'.Iinist"r for Railways took a very special ba>-ed his argument upon the existence of interc:t in this matter, and we had a speech goodwill and -he must admit that there is no from him. I would like just to quote a short argumen't left if goodwill is non-existent. <·xtrart, showing what the hon. member's Indeed, his speech need not have be~n made opinion in connection '\ ith a somewhat under such circumstances, because 1t would kindred matter was in 1912. Dealing with have no bE'arin~ on the issues. \V c do not the Liquor Bill, on page 2146 of volume cxiii. for a moment 'admit goodwill. The Go­ of "liamard," )i!:r. Fiholly "aid- vernment does not admit that goodwill is a " It would be verv unfair if Parlia­ factor at alL The late Government did not l lent intcrferc··l at ~ll with agreements admit that and Mr. Denham, when Premier, lntered into between private individuals said that his legal adviser distinctly laid it in re,·pcct of existing leases. Parliament down that, in his opinion, there was no such >hould no more attempt to int!'rfere with thing as goodwill in the w~olc transaction. ~fr. Dcnham all throua:h said that that was a~::rcem0nts made between individuals than it would drram of repudiating an his opinion and if that is so, the leader of agreement come to with the Tramways the Opposition ~ust confe,s that there is n'!t ono argument against the introduction of .this Company." Bill. There c:

want to get back to the first principles and The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: ask ourselves first of all, are we breaking a \Ve cannot say what the inducements were. contract; secondly, have we done a fair thing I will read to the hon. member afterwards by the Tram.,~ays Company, and as there what some members of the House, including must be tH o parties to an agreement, have Sir Samuel Griffith, at that time thought, the Tramways Company done a fair thing and he will probably be astonished at it. by us? No Parliament had the right to barter nosterity's rights awav in regard to such an Mr. G. P. BARKES: They carried out their tmknown quantity as the value of electricity. agreement. The people of the citie~ and the people of the counirv are entitled to the best trans­ The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: portation ·between their homes and their They have certain obligations of a moral work place,, and between their homes and character as well as obligations of a legal their recreation reserves. They are entitled to character. They have a rnonopoly here. the cheapest and most efficient transport. They are here not subject to the competi­ They are entitled to the best and cheapest tion that other traders are subject to. We give water, light, and other services generally them certain privileges. regarded as public utilities. And it has been Mr. SrZER : \''hy not enter into corn peti­ recognised in America for many years that tion with them? where a company make~, exorbitant d?mands on the people. the State has a r1ght to The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: interfere and regulate the fares and condi­ If the hon. mGlnber will read the Act, he tions of that franchise, or regulate them. will see that they cannot be compett>d against. But there w:~s nothing for us to go back on, That is what I am trying to explain. be("ause, as I pointc~d out, between 1882 and I hold that no previous Parliament, even 1890 the Governor in Council, that is the if there is a contract-and there is not Governor with the Cabinet-the Executive between the company and Parliament-I say Council-had the right to regulate fares at no previous Parliament can bind this Par­ its own sweet will, but the Parliament of 1890 liament for twenty years any more than it took that summary right away from the can bind this Parliament in perpetuity. The Governor in Council and invested it in itself lDader of the Opposition laid some stress on again, and it is high time we in the Queens­ the Act of 1882. The Act of 1882 provided land Parliament wview!'d the fares operating that the Governor in Conncil could prescribe in Brisbane and the suburbs of Brisbane as the fares for tramwav .companies throughout arranged by the Tramways Company. We Queensland, but the Act of 1890, section 8, took want to ask ourselves. as I said previously, away from the Governor in Council the sum­ have we done a fair thing by the company? mar.v power it possessed, but it Btill left the I might say that the hon. member for power with Parliament. Parliament must Bulimba, who, I understand, is speaking sub­ always possess that power, and, because the sequently, can convince us somewhat on this Parliament of 1890 merely took the power point. from the GovL'l'nor in CounciL it onlv <'m­ Hon. v;-. H. BAR~ES: Who told you I was phasises the fact that it "till kept to Parlia­ speaking? ment its own power in that particular respect. We have the power, and we are entitled to The SECRETARY FOR RAIL\VAYS: exercise it. \Vhen the hon. member for Without being a clairvoyant, I should Nundah asked whether we were going to imagine that the hon. member will give us compete, I was going to point out brief!, his opinion. If the hen. member for Bulimba , what the Bill means and what obliO'ations will tell us actually what the it entails, and how the State sta~ds in [9 p.m.] company invc'sted, actually what relation to the Tramways Company. The the company received back by accommodation for passengers must be way of dividends, actually what their plant bettered by the BilL But although we say is worth to-dav, and what we will have to to the company, "J\,lake the accommoda­ pay for it. w~ would know how the com­ tion better," we have to buy that back when pany stood in relation to the Government we are pur~hasing the whole of the plant-the and the people \Ye only want to do a fair outfit and the whole concern. We say "Make thing to Mr. Badger and to the company, your accommodation better," but we have to and ·I might at this stage read a few names buy the additional asset back. We say, of the shareholders-the widows and orphans "Your service must be improved" but -who \\8r8 mentioned when the Highgate we are buying the improvements ba'ck also Hill extension was built-J. B. Concannon, subsequently. \Ve have to buy them back London · \Y oolston and Beeton, -London ; unless we are going to permit Mr. Badger Comptoir D' Escompte, Paris; Baron Es­ to have the concession in perpetuity. We langer, Paris: Lady McEacharn, Mclbourn?; say, thirdly, "Extensions must be built," Lady Walker, Sand Hutton. York: . J\I[Jss that is, out of the profits over 5 per rent. Olive \Valker, Sand Hutton, York; M1ldycd Again the people have to buy back these Kerr, Sand Hutton, York; Thomas B1lde extensions. v;; e are getting no concession Robinson, London; Frnnk King Terry, Lon­ for it. The people are not reeciving more don; Andrcw 2\Icllwraith, London; Perrier. than their due. We merely sav: "Give Merci<'r et Cie. London ; Sir Malcclm Donald McEacharn. l\l0lbourne; \Voolston Trub­ a better all-round service, thorouihly appre­ 1 ciate your obligations, and we will pay you shawe, London. That is the full ist of share­ fully at the conclusion of your franchise." holders given at that time. It must be remembered, when we are ask­ Mr. G. P. BARNES: You have not read ing for reasonable fares to be charged, the names of all the shareholders. that when Parliament gave this franchise electric traction and transportation was in The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: it~ infancy, and Parliament had no right­ They are all th<;: shareholders mentioned in if it did barter away-it had no right to this document. barter awav. even for ten years, such a mass Mr. G. P. BARKES: They were the only of illimitable possibilities as electric traction. ones mentioned in connection with the regis­ Mr. G. P BARKES interjected. tration of the company. [Hon. J. A. Fihelly. Brisbant Tra.mway [24 JULY.) Far,B Bill. 1223

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS : £138,000; in 1916 of £109,000 according to If the hen. member has all the information, Commonwealth statistics, but £148,000 he can give it. I confess that I agree with according to Queensland statistics. 'The com­ the Hon. Mr. Brentnall, who said at that pany gave the information to both, but time : " This is a very mysterious concern." apparently did not give the same informa­ I have no animus againsb the company or tion in each case. The number of trams is against Mr. Badger; but we have a duty the same in both cases;- however, that is im­ to perform to the people of Brisbane in look­ materiaL In 1917 they made a profit of ing after their interests and seeing that they £113,000, and £36,000 additional was carried also get a fair deal. The very fact that mem­ to reserve. From these profits they paid bers of the Opposition are. basing lheir argu­ the British Government last year, a~ far ae ment upon the acc.;>pted theory of goodwill I can ascertain, £49,000 upon the profits of indi~ates that they are looking aft<>r the inter­ 1916. The Federal Government and the State ests of the company. vVe, personally, repu­ Government, as far also as I can ascertain, diate goodwill. We say it does not exist, and were only paid £11,000. that this Bill cannot interfere one iota with the profib of the company or with thP value of Hon. W. H. BARNES: I am sure you are the company, and that, when the tramways absolutely out. are taken over in a few years, all the money The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: I they are entitled to will go back to the hope I am. It i; very difficult to get infor­ shareholders. But lqt me go back again to mation, but I think l am right. It ie not the question of whether we have treated the company rightly, and whether the company difficult to make an asscsRment when you get has treated us rightly. I think it will be the profits, but that i.~ as far as I can make admitted that if, on an original investmqnt ont. I know they paid about £60,000 in in 1895 of £450,000, already there has gone taxation last year on their profits for 1916, back into the pockets of the shareholders and I think the British Government got the .£1,250.000. that is not unreasonable. The best of it. I am now going to quote from people of Brisbane are paying an extortionate th,, Sydney ''Bulletin'' of 30th August. 1917, guarantee tax to those widows and orphans for the sake of interesting hon. members in in London. (Government laughter.) I, for tlw busine'' 0f the company- one, as a resident of Brisbane, say we have " THE BRISBAKE ELECTRIC TRAMWAYS done very well by them, even if there were INVESTMENT CmrPANY's DIVIDENDS. no further transactions, in giving them back £1,250.000, where only £450,000 was origin­ "Thi·, company, regiBtered in England, ally invested. But, in addition to the practically owns : l1c company that owns £1,250,000. the plant, just at its valuation, the BrisLan~"l tran•-;. The real ov.,'ner is and including no goodwill-which we deny the also Engli:;;h-rc·gisterrd Brisbane exists-rJthongh we are not going to repu­ Trarrm"lys Company, in 150,000 shares; diate it hv Act of Parliament, but are going tho inYPstnwnt company owns 149.893 of to l('avc it to the courts to dr-c;de. though I them. 'l'he effect of this arrangement is say we have the right to repudiate g-oodwill, that no obstreperous per<,on can go into and I certainly would be in favour at any the market. buy a share in the tramways, tim<; of repudiating that doctrine-hut leav­ and then go to the meetings and fmd out ing that question on one side, the share­ all about everything. But the Tramways holders will get rather more than £1.000,000 Companv. though it nominally owns the for their original expenditure on plant of system, doesn't put up tho money for le" than £500,000. extensions'; this investment con1pany dof'B anything neceosary in that way, and Mr. G. P. BARNES: Do you say the share­ during the past live years has spent . on holders will get that? construdion. etc., the followmg The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: amount•"" :- I am not going to gnarante~ that all the 1912 £51,596 original shareholders will get it. Probably 1913 56.376 some of the orphans of those days have grown 1914 103,751 up and married, and, perhaps, some of them 1915 70,068 have died and left. other orphans; but I 1916 32,194 do not know. The hon. member is in a "That m< ans £313.985 in fiye years, b~tter position to answer that than I am, and thG only new capital which lws been I will just read the profits for the last few got in during th0 period is £150,000 in years to lPt the people satisfy themselves as ordinarv shures. A trifle has been got to whether we are grasping or whether the from the bank ; the balance consists of companv ar8 grasping. Tn 1907 they made a undiYicled profit. ln these five years, as profit of £70,000; in 1908 they made a profit the first table shows, the ·dividends of £83,000, and so on. received ft•om. the Tram" ays Company Hon. W. H. BARNES: Why don't you be have paid the small amount which the fair and start at the beginning? management of this company costs. pro­ vi·ded the dividends, and left :£115,992 The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: over.'' If the hon. member wishes to make a speech, Consequent!~·. I do not think we have done he should really listen to the reproof of his very badly by the company. \Ve have car­ leader, and not int~rrupt so frequently and ried out our part of the bargain, and, if at such length. I am giving the gross total the company is charging extortionate fares profits, and it is a very easy prohlem in and giving a bad setVice and poor accom­ subtraction to ascertain exactly what hap­ nwdation, we have ''very right and title to pened between 1895 and the vear I start with say: " Keep to your obligations, both legal by deducting the figures I" quot!l from the and moraL and do the right thing." I gross profits. In 1909 the company made a would bring members now to Sir Malcolm profit of £94,000; in 1910 of £106,000; in McEacharn' s report to his directors in 1903. 1911 of £124,000; in 1912 of £92,000; in 1913 I do this to show to you that the company is of £124,000; in 1914 of £153,000; in 1915 of not displaying any benevolence in its dealings Hon. J . .A. F1:J1el1y.] 1224 Brisbane Tramway [ ASSElVIBL Y.] Fares Bill. with other companies and other individuals Tlw SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: -to show that it is al way~ grasping, always I now want to refer to the question of con­ rl!paC'ious. and always willing to g''t the fis~aHon and repudiation. Incidentall;v, I better of anv deal in which it enters. This !11lVht say that the s"me charges \H're le;-el­ is what Sir 'l\1alcolm McEacharn said- lod against the Government which included ,, Before leaving the que,,tion of earn­ the hon. member for Bulimba ,,nd which included the hon. member for Toowong, the ings, I should like to say something present leader of the Opposition. The same about tlv" omnibus competition which charges were levelled in 1913 against the still smvivc•o. and to \;-hich I have re­ then Government by Mr. Badger, and shortly fened on previous occasiom. Although I \Yill read a letter from Mr. Badger wherein the circumst1'.JCces which previously ren­ lw prote·,tnd against the confiscation. Con­ dered it ad vis able to run a fre,quent ser­ fisr'ltion, it seems to me, in Tl1r. Badger's vico in order to m'.eet opposition still con­ eyes, appE'ars to be anv interference with tinuf', the number of omnibuses con­ the almighty ' to buy th<'ir pro­ to do "hat is right and what is honourable perty, but that he does not think it and j n 't, but you Me not going to ride rough­ would be a J,rofitablo inve tment shod over us, not even if vou are an im­ Anothc.r .YFar .such as th~ past, he sa.;, s, ported company, and even 'if you threaten will wind-up the 'bt!'' business." you will keep capital awav." The leader of the Opposition referre·d to the matter of He would not eyen buy from the Omnibus dri;-ing capital away. I would remind the Company. Then Sir Malcolm McEacharn House that capital was going to be driven continned in rE'garcl to the liability- away when the Au;tralian Government " To meet our Jic~.bilitie3. therefore, we wiped out the kanaka. (Hear, hear !) haye ismed £25,G'J0 of debenture ,tack Capital was going to be driven away when during the current half-q>ar at 102 and they introduced the eight-hour day, and it will be n(·ce,sary to' i••ue a f~rther also when we introduced the Arbitration BilL £25,000 dm·in<; the emning half-vear. When any measure of reform is introduced Boynnd this, how8ver. we do not think into thi •. House, we are told that capital is it will he necessary to go, and as we going to flee from the country, and the consider vvo l.r~:ve provided a~ much mile­ B1·itish investor is no longer going to take c.ge a•; the prc•.er,r state of the colonv a benevolent interest in our welfare. When justifie~, .a.nd as t.ho GoYernm'<1s that gav<> posed. I might say there is nothing unor­ ptrlnis.dion to an i1npcrted co1npany to affect thodox in this Bill-nothing at all. There compar~ti,-ely one-third of the mileage of i•; nothing unfair in it. I went to the trouble our rail way £ystem ! Thc··e are his Yery of setting out the history of the 1882 and words thtt I am quot:ng. 1890 legislation in connection with the tram· ways, and now I want to compare the legis­ Hon. "' H. BARXES: \Vho has got the lative action in regard to the gas companies benefit of it to-d"y? and the legislative action in regard to the tramways to prove again that there is The S.ECRE'l A.RY FOR RAILWAYS: neither repudiation nor confiscation. There The sh!lre1· of the Tramways Com­ i > no breaking of any agreement in this pany. matter. ln 1916 we passed an Act in this I-Iousp without objection, and without tan­ Hon. \V. H. BARt.ES: :!\'o. It brought gible protest it went through the Upper your {arc,j ilown. House. That Act regulates the prices of The SECRl<~'l'AR Y FOR RAILWAYS : gas throughout Queensland. \Ve recognise Sir Malcolm McEaeharn coneluded- gus as a public commodity and utility. "prooahly "grc>e ith us in this view. Hon. W. H. BARNES: Will you say what we ma_. regord cur capital liabilitY as percentage you allow the gas companies? Iikel;v to be c],"d with the issue of a total of £450,000 of debenture stock." The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Yes, I will tell you. We can take it from that that the total invest­ ment of the shareholders in this countrv Hon. W. H. BARNES: It was not 5 pe.r amounted to £450,000. and thev have bee~ cent.? pretty handsomely treated by ·us for that inve.·tnwnt, and they will have a fair nest­ 'The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: egg coming to them when we take over the No, but you must understand that we are whole business from the company very not taking over the gas companies in two shortly. or three years. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! Hon. W. H. BARNES : It was 8 per cent. [Hon. J. A. Fihe11y. Brisbane Tramway [24 Jt:LY.] Fares Bill. 1225

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: COl!lp.,ny was repudiation? No. Each new The hon. gentleman is rather obtuse on this Parliament must determine its own affairs, point. (Laughter.) and must have the inherent rights to review Hon. \V. H. BARNES: He knows too much what all other Parliaments have done, else for you about that matter. let u·, elect a Parliament and enact legisla­ tion for all tim<', and let it stand there. That Th,-, SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: i; quite lo,;ical. Each Parliamer.t must be "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." the !J'OI erning master of its own affairs. (Laughter.) I would point out to the hon. (He;u, hear!) member that we are not taking over the Mr. G. P. BARNES: No security of tenure gas companies in two or three years, but then, or anything els<'? we arc taking over the tramways in two or three years. The gas companies have The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: their franchise-in perpetuity, pretty well­ I hope the hon. member st'es that in 1864 S·1 that there is a vast difference between the Parliament pa~sed a Bill permitting the two und~rtakings. In this Bill we only Brisbane Gas Company to receive profits up permit the Tramways Company's shareholders to 50 pm- cent. on subscribed capital, and in to receive 5 per cent., and Mr. Badger him­ 1916-the year before last-this Parliament self admitted that that was a very fair practically said : " It is ridiculous; 8~ per return. I will quote that letter directly, cent. i,. enough; really 7 6 per cent. is ample showing that he admitted that 5 per cent. -1 per cent. being e~llowed for another pur· was a fair thing for the Government to pose-and Y<>ll .,,ill get no more." That is not ht.ve. but not a fair thing for him. We are an isolated case. The Cairns Company could saying to the Tramways Company: "\V~ are previously pay 10 per cent., Charters Towers not taking from you any of your capital 10 per cEnt., Gympie 20 per cent., Ipswich 30 or any of your profit, because it will be )ler cenL, :\laryborough 30 per cent., Mount used a'• a reinvestment to extend your lines :\Iorgan 10 per cent., Rockhampton 30 per and give better communication and better cpnt., South Brisbane 30 per cent., Toowoomba accommodation, to which the people of Bris­ 3:J per cent., Townsville 20 per cent., and bane arc entitled. All you reinvest over and \Yarwick 20 per cent. \Ve reduced them all a bovc 5 per cent. we will have to repay in ono fell swoop, so to speak, in 1916 to 8~ you.'' (Hear, hear!) \Vhen we remember per cent. The Tramways Company, which that this company was in po••sessiot1 of profits hon. members opposite admit is an imported amounting tntitlc>d to say to the company: ''You have ment and demand conc(•Ssions greater than not spent enough on extensions; your fares our own domestic companies in our midst! &re too h1 gh, and your trarr, way system Parliaruent nln"',t exercise its rights, even altogether is not keeping pace with the 'I here there is a contract-and I am not times. Next year put some of your profits admitting that there is a contract here-to intq thc::c extensions; and when we are review from time to time all charges in con­ taking the plant over we will pay you for nection with a pubiic utility. The leader of the extensions you have made. You will tlw Opposition quoted me on contract. I gel· your money back then." That is the repeat ag-ain that there was nothing in that. only way in which you ran make the com­ sprech inC'onsistent. with what I am saying pany carry out their obligations. There is now. Parliament must have a right to fix no confiscation about it. (Hear, hear!) I vrices, and we are nlero1y fixing prices in hope hon. members will sec that point now. r0gard to these tr~,mways in the same ·way as Section 12 of the Gas Act of 1916 says- the Commomv•calth Parliament are fixing the " Notwithstanding anything contained price of goods. It is recognised in all the in thio Act or any memorandum or hi.-torv of legislation in the United States articles of association, the price to be that \vhere a company is rapacious Parlia­ charged by a company for gas supplied ment must interfere, and that it is the boun· by it to consumers by meter shall be at rlcn dutv o± Parliament to interfere, and :!'vir. the rate following--" Badger," who talks a lot of nomensP-in fa?t. Then it is set out in the schedule that the drivel really-about confiscation, and repudw­ profito of the gas company are limited to tion, and br,~aking the Constitution, and s.o forth, is quite ac

all perturbed about the English money­ " The company has certain acknow · lender. He has got a very good return, like ]edged rights, and there are others Mr. Badger's shareholders, for his invest­ which, while not admitted by you, you ments, and he did not lend us money for must acknowledge possibly may exist, love. and my board of directors must conserve Hon. W. H. BARNES : You cannot get these rights to the shareholders. money from the Engli;h lender at the present "And just here I would like to point time at 5 per cent., at any rate, nor can you out that a good proportion of th,-se share­ get it from the Commonwealth Government. holders are residents of Queensland and Brisbane, and the Brisbane Tramways­ The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS. Company is very far from being, what it Ponderous words of wisdom fall from the is by its opponents often styled, an hon. gentleman. No doubt there is a dig­ absentee company. nity attaching to the position of ex-Treasurer. (Government laughter.) "'Fhe Brisbane Tramways Company some vears back undertook the develop­ The PREMIER: You can get money here at ment "of electric tramway,; in Brisbane 5 per cent. under the several sbtutes then existing The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: relating to tramways, and the company The local authorities can take money from regards the terms then imposed by those us at 4~ per cent.-what there is of it. statutes as embodying its charter for thei1· (Laughter.) undertaking. Upon the faith of those An OPPOSITION MEMBER : There is very laws, a large capital was expended by the little of it. (Laughter.) company in furnishing Brisbane w1th a first-class and strictly up-to-date tram The SECRETARY FUR HAILWAYS: service. The imposition of new conditions On the matter of confiscation and repudia­ now, without our consent. would be a tion, I wish now to quote from a letter from breach of faith which might be regarded ~fr. Badger, of the 26th September, to the as a measure of that repudiation of con­ hon. member for Bulimba's late chief, the tracts which is so obnoxious to all British then Premier, Mr. Denham. Mr. Badger Legislatures. said- "The company has hitherto conducted " Heferring to our telephone conversa­ its business in a wav which has proved tion of yesterday, I can only Conal idea. We are going to 'leavP. this Bill, but the obligation is cast on the goodwill for the court to decide. I hold that company to work the extensions, paying no Parliament in 1882 or 1890 had the right the Government 5 per cent. interest, to barter our rights away. which you admit is a fair rate." GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear! In that correspondence l'vlr. Denham said that :Mr. Badger admitted that 5 per cent. The SECRETARY :FOR RAILWAYS: is a. fair rate. If Jlilr. Badger make•\ that They had Ho right to give a company a admission, what objection can he possibly valuable franchis

"Bv the Railwav and Canal Traffic The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: .\et, '1888, every r;ilway company was Of course, there is a bigger population in required to submit a revised classifica­ Sydney. But if you go to Adelaide or tion of merchandise traffiC, and a revised Perth you will find that the fares there are schedule of maximum rates applicable cheaper than thev are in Brisbane. The thereto. These classifications and Premier of Queensland in that day-Sir 'Chedulcs, aftN the objectionG of parties Thomas Mcilwraith-believe·d in private rail­ interested had been heard. were settled "·ays-in everything being owned privately. bv the Board of Trade, and then em­ Sir Thomas Mcilwraith said- bodied in provisional orders confirmed b:r " He (the Premier) did not belij'lve in Ads of Parliament." the Go,ernment holding the tramways in From the "Encyclopaedia Bri.tannica," their own hands. He believed that it volume xxii., I quote the following:- would be a good thing if not only tram­ "The Railway and Canal Commis­ ways, but railway', wore out of the hands sioners form a court constituted by the of the Government. He hacl not the Rail" av and Cnnal Traffic Act of 1888 slightest doubt that priYate companies for deciding, inter alia, questions relat­ would work them with greater advan­ ing to fares and charges. It was at one tage to the colony, and he was sure they time an axiom of law and of political w·ould work them a great deal better for econc.my that prices should be determined the colony, and make the cost of car­ by free competition. But in the develop­ riage cheaper. He saw no good reason •nent of th" railway business it soon why tramwa.vs should be made by the bet.amo evident that no such dependence Goyernmcnt." on free competition was possible." Mr. McLe<' of inter- <'t. s,id- - Th" SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: 'I'he Brisbane Council spent £80,000 in wood­ " He thought that companies would blocking Queounw, Addaide. or even Perth. Mr. MAC.\RT)o;EY : The tram track is the Hon. \V. H. BARKES: The rates have been best part of the road anywhere. put up in Sydney. The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Tlw SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: \V e know how rails must be laid to carry \Yh", for 3d. or 6d. in Sydney you could trams full of p<••)ple. Even to-day, I under­ travel ever a dozen times Mr Badger's stand. some councils have trouble in g"tting mileage here. the Tramways Company to properly ballast Hon. W. H. BAR:.;Es: There is a bigger their road. It must-like the railway line­ population there. be ballasted well, because it carries a very [Hon. J. A. Fihelly. Brisbane Tmmwa,y (24 JULY.] Fares Bill. 1229 heavy weight within a circumscribed area. vent a change in the plans and specifica­ ~r. lza1nbert said-- tions of the tramway, and the tramway " The Bill was a new departure from should not be constructed without the the public works policy of the colony. sanction of the Governor in Council." For the fjr,,t time it wa~ proposed that I agree with that entirely. He proceeded-- public works, hitherto carried out by the " 'When a thing was approved by the Government, should be entrusted to pri­ Governor in Council, it should not be vate companies. The experience, not only allowed to be altered without their ;;anc­ of Queensland but of every Government tion." all over the world, was not very favour­ able to public interests coming into con­ Mr .. Thynne pleaded for a provision con­ tact with private interests." ferrmg on the purchaser of the tramwa v all the powers of the company owning the tram­ I would like the House to give attention for way. He tried to secure the passage of an a moment to 11r. Izambcrt's opinion. He amendment conferring those powers. That said-- will .be eeen on page 78. He applied for a " The safeguard was necc"sary against proVISIOn conferrmg on the purcha•,er of the overreaching, ck<·er individuals. such as tran;way all the powers of the company he (the ~inister of the day) would have to owmng the tramway; which pleading, I deal with-gentlemen who, as they all trust. '"'hf'n repeated here very shortly in knew, did not come to Queensland with <;Jeahng with the second Bill which is coming a sole and disinterested desire to gi vc the forward, will get the ready ear of members people accommodation, but rather to see opposite. Mr. Thynne mmt be congratulated how much money they could make out of upon the stand he took in that particular the people. They could not tak'" too much respect. While on the matter of constructing care to guard themselves against those b:· the permission of the Governor in Council, capitalists, and he could really, therefore, it is only right to tell Parliament that ~r. see no objection to the new clause Badger has built tracks unlawfully, without 11roposed by the hon. member--~r. the permission of the Governor in Council McLPan.'' and in defiance of the Governor in Council. He r0allv was a seer. He certainly saw pretty \ve'l into the futu1·e. He there said Mr, ]IL\C,\RTc;EY That is in the other Bill, that the amendment should be incorporated i5 it not? in the Aet to prevent clever individuals. The SECRETARY FOR RAIIJWAYS: such as the Government would have to deal Yes; but we are discussing tlw attiude of with--gentlemen who, they all knew. did not both parties to an alleged bargain. I am come to llueensland with tbe sole and dis­ giving ::Ylr. Badger what is known colloquially interested desire to give tbe people accommo­ as " a fair deal." dation, but rather to see how much money ::Ylr. :YI\CART;>;EY: I doubt it when :vou they could make out of the people--to pre­ make that statement You don't state you vent these clever people imposing on the cluim he has done so: you say he did it in Government. They could not take too much defiance of the Governor in Council instead care to guard therr.selves against those capi­ of etating fairly the authority which he said talists. and he could really, therefore, see no objection to the new clause as proposed by he had to do it. the hon. member. Sir Samuel Griffith said The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: subsequently-- Any work that can only be carried out with " Ho had noticed a great deal in that thf\ consent of the Governor in Council, must portion of the Bill \Yhich was reallv be in defiance of the Governor in Council. if nonsen'-e. but. if the Government were the Governor in Council has not given the determined to pa,,s it without any alter­ consent. ation, he ;;hould say no rnore." JI.Ir. 1VlACAR1;.;n : It depr,,ds on the, \'':LV He was th0 author of certain words which it you put it Ycu ha\·e had acDe;;s to the was proposed to include. Hr was supposing nrchive~ of the Depa1·tment of Justice, and that the company would Eot do their duty. You know prettv wnll what the Crown law That was why he wanted certain words in, opinion is. - which were included. He concluded by The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: saying-- I am much more tolerant of the hon. mem­ " lt might work the tramways very ber's interjections than he was of mine. badly. It was that sort of thit.g which Earlier in the discussion I understood the made pe0ple disgusted with tramways hon. member to say he never at an:y time altogether. They were sometimes worked was at a depntation d;:,aling with the tram­ so badly that they were a nuisance in­ ways. stead of a convenience, and in cases like 11r JI.1ACAH1NBY: I never remember being that thore ought to be some provision at any leputation, or nnything in connection for taking the tramway out of the hands with tranYway business. of the company. Let the council take it over, and if the company were pre­ The SECRETARY FOR RAILW},YS: pared to make better arrangements, they I will revive the lllatter presently. This is could then have it back again. There an extract from the "Daily ~ail" of a ought to be some cheek upon the com­ deputation which waited, I think, on the pany, because there· was no room for Premier on the 19th April, 1913. The ~ccyor another in the same street." of Toowong, apparently, must have intro­ Thev ere words of wisdom that summed duced the deputation. At ;11! events. the up the position very well. Apparently, Sir ::Y1ayor of Toowong, said-- Samuel Griflith, even then, regarded as some­ " J-Ie ·waP- as good a Liberal as any thing sinister the broad and vague condi­ member of th'' pe.rtv. He comidered the tions in>crted in th,•.t Act dealing with Gov2rnmoont ,}.ould 'pass an enabling Bill tramwn,ys-·an Act under which we are work­ to rake ovet· the tramways. But the ing to-day, with the exreption of a very Government aid they were going to do slight amendment. Mr. Thynne said- nothmg. If they would not, the next " There should be something to pre- Government woulci. He believed a Hon . .J. A. Fihelly.] 1230 Brisbane Tramway [ASSEMBLY.] Fare8 Bill.

Labour Governmem would ·do the right because we interfere with the Tramways thing It was a case of shifting the Cc mpany it is repudiation. Denham Government; onlv the State Mr. MACARTNEY : I discussed that Bill very could shift Mr. Badger. "If anybody fully, and 1n0ved n1any, many arnendmcnt:~ dwuld tc. ke the trams over, it was the in Com•nitte<> as w.,ll. The hon. member State. There was sufficient proof that has gont: tn rnnch paif1s to try to tvlist me, ~he conncils ,would never work together but he has not got mud1 out of it. I!l l1armony. The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: The Hon. F. T. Breninall said, at another 'J'he lerrclcr of tho Opr:osition is showing a rl0putaJion, whic·h was reported in the wrong cpirit entirely. I am dealing with ·• Daily Standarci" of 27th March, 1913- this Inat'er irnp0rc·onally· and dispas'3ionate1y. " It \Yas rnuc·h too soon for the council'• I have no desire to t\vist his staten1ents. to aim at taking the service over. The I am merely showing where Padiament in city was only in th9 making and had not 1916 did exactlv what we are askmg Parlia­ +he imnPnse ponulation of old-world ment to do to:day-- cities where munit·1pal trams fiourishPd." Mr. MAC\RTN'rY: You are suggesting that :\lr. Brentnall, as usual, made several very n1y action jn that con~1ection is suspicious. 1ntcrcsti11g statement::: I--lE-· ahvnys is inter- The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: 0Sting. Just ~ubsc'quent to that· he re­ Xo. I ('Crtainly am not. marked- Mr. MACAHTliEY: You said so; you said I " There was too much mystery, and not Jjd not object; at the hn1e. cnoagh public knowlr"'lge, about the Trarnways Co1nr·~r~y, a-n.d its right::; and The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: li1nit3.tions." H I user{ those t-pccific wor-Js. they were used inadYertentlv. I know that the hon. member The " Telegraph" of 28th March. 1913. objected-bu't now that he wishes me to take contains the following report- up that issue-if he had really v:ished to " lV[r Macartnev said he spoke on be­ defeat that measure he would <'Htamh: have half. of ,;he residents of Toowong and s~en that his friends in the Upper House Tarmga. did so. They rejected many measures. (GoYernPlent laughter ·1 (Hear, hear!) Mr. MACARTNEY: Doing his duty as a Mr. 11ACARTN'F.Y: Yo:x are talking through merr.ber of the district, perhaps. your hat. The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Perhaps. lle made a few remarks. It might It is nDt a verv cla~,,~'l remark to tell rne haYe been done by >Yay of interjection. The that I am "hllcing through my hat~" I am report proc· + ds- 'lH)lriscd at it coming from the leader of the " He thoug·ht it as almost impossible Op;JOsi tion. for the local auth1)rities to tal~e over the Mr. M.lCARTNEY: CCJning from a :Minister, traL1ways. Bri,,br~P,0 had not arrived at there is a cer;::tin an1,_1unt of drivel in your the btatc of: dovel'JJHnent of Glar-gov~y and rc:J:1arks: other to"'iYns, and in son1e pl ac,,,_, they The SECRETARY FOR HAlLWAYS: were onlv in th,, initial formation 'oi If I mav return the compliment, I have their roarls The company muct bn list"n"d t;.., what I might call a good deal of allowed to go on -,~ith th_, Wtation formally, as a one knows th ',V were rcpeale·d and made member of the district. inoperative by the 1890 _\et. Howewr, I do Mr. MACARTNEY · \Yllat do you make out not propose to be further led . astray by of them? irrelevant interjections. 'l'he _pohcy. of _the The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: company has Leen to avoid Its obh1'ahons They w'ere the opinions of a member for a right through, and the Government IS only nwtropolitan district. Mr. Macartney there asking wha.t is right and just and prop•:r·· mys most emphaticaJl:1 that the Government Dissatisfaction has been rife, and the diS· must tal taking away walk over a mile to the terminus--" similar conce,;;~lcns, c

The SECRETARY FOR RAIL\VAYS: ''"re, before it, asking for every possible It is the qur,;tion. l\Ir. King said that the c-onsideration, \vitlwut any good argu1nent or trams should be pushed out to meet the any good reason. \Ve have done fairly by ,people. Is not that tho question? \Ve say them. T'hcy have recei,,e,i the mom'y they in­ that the Tramways Company have been Y( :.ited <:>CYPral times OYE·r. Thev ha vc received making exorbitant profits, .md instead of back on'r three times what" they invested. investing some of those profits in extensions If tho whole p 1ant was purcha>ed to-morrow. they are pocketing them, and they should without consideration for goodwill-which I build extensions even if the extensions do \Yill repeat we do not admit extends to them not pay. -they would again get three times at least, and probably more than three times what Mr. ~lAC'ART;<;EY: The present and the past ·Governments ha vc set their faces against they put into it. I ''ay we have done well extensions. by them. \\~ e should not be frightened by th£ idea of the London money kings refusing The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: u;::. 1noncy. It j," an item, as the"o enter­ The preso•1t Government have set their faces pris<~:;; go, of Y· ry srr:all concern to then1, .against extensions where the giving of those and it does not perturb me at all. If we extensions woulS "in the Company and their r.hhn·holders haYe done way of fares. He also is a good Liberal a 'erv well out of us. It is an axiom of our good Nationali·,t. Our arguments are ~ot goY.crnmental s:~·stem that tramway,, and .confined to those men who support us. \V e othPr pul.lic utilities mu t be conduned for want to do a fair thing for the whole of the the convenience and benefit of the com­ peaple of the metropolihn area in this munitY. and not for the conYe:Jience and respect. profit 'of private indivicluak I trust the Bill The SErREHRY FOR AGRICULTURE : Liberals will be agreed to by the House. and alL (Laughter.) GovER:-DIENT MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Yes. Mr. Kirkla.nd said that he was Mr. SIZER (Nund'lh) : I want to lay it Dpposed· to the chairman in oPrtain matters, down immediately that I quite agree that but agrec1d that they should endeavour imme­ the tramways, as a public utility, should b.e diately tn cope with the necessity for exten­ in the hand< eithn of the State or of the mu!11- 'ion and the avarioiousness of the company. cipal authorities. I am not well acquainted ::\Ir. lYIACARTNEY: \Yho said that? with the past history of the Brisbane Tram­ ways Company which the leader of the Oppo­ The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS : sition has placed before us to-night; there­ i\Ir. Kirkland-not using those words. I fore I am going to deal with the principle of will read exactly what he said- the thing as I see it at present. I " The company were charging too much [10 p.m.] believe that the tramways should in the way of fares; they would have a be owned bv the municipal autho­ cheaper serivce if the Government had rities. and the profits derived from them controL" should go to ben0fit the people who use them And so on. However. I think I have shown in and around Brisbane. It is quite likely that the company had no compunction at all that when the franchise was given to the where it saw an opportunity to interfere or companv that the local authorities in and contract beyond the Act with a shire council. around "Brisbane were not in a position to It was always willing to contract outside the carrv on a tramwa v syPtem ; and the people principles and sections of the Act with the n0'-'ded some systein to carry them to the Hamilton Council and with the Ithaca suburbs and to develop Brisbane. Everyone CounciL In its dealings with the Govern­ agrees that the . Tramways Company has, ment it has almost resorted to subterfuge to through its service, developed Brisbane con­ obtain its desires and its wants. Always it siderably, and for that reason, possibly. there comes like a mendicant at the door, begging, might have been some justification in the pushing the widow and the orphan, as it Parliament of the day giving a franchise to Jrf r. Si..er. J 1232 Brisbane Tramway [ASSEMBLY.] Par,s Bill. a private company for that purpose, although JI.Ir. SIZER : That is all that is provided wo would not agree to give a similar franchise for ; bnt, at the same time, there never has to-clay, as the circumstances are quite differ­ been any doubt or, thr• legal point, which is ent. The trams haYe developed Brisbane that they mu't be taken over as a going and, taking· it all round, the Tramway~ concern. If the tramways arc taken ovet· Company is giving a good senice to Bris­ a·· a going concern, and they arc earning btcne. It mav be that in some case" we have •PY, for sake of argument, £10,000 a year, a little irrit~tion the same as we have on and you bring in drastic legislation which our railwavs in connection with overcrowd­ means that -they will only earn £5,000, yotrt ing. At the same time. I do object to the naturally depreciate ihe value as a going principle of this Bill. Two years before the ccncern considerably, which, to my mind, is expiration of that franchise a Dill is intro­ unjust. If it wac laid down that they were duced which must naturally decrease the to be taken over without this Bill, I do not company's profits, with the sole intention of ihink there would haYe been one word of getting the tramways at a reduced rate prote··t. Personally, I would not have raised The HmiE SECRETARY: _'\.t the fair market an: objection; but I must object to th<> value. method which has been taken, becau·e the Mr. SIZER: It will be got at a re-duced Government of the day gave to the company rate. I was particularly interested in the a franchise which expires on the 20th Sep­ remarks of the Minister for Railwavs when tember, 1920, and which provides a schedule he said if we took anything from the Tram­ of the maximum bre they must charge. way' Company-if we make them extend They have noyer excee-ded that. But two their linc,-we will have to pay them back. years before that period expires we ha vc this If that is ·o. what is the objection to leaving drastic measure introduced, which will natur­ ir, over for two vears? You would then be ally reduce the company's profits materially, sa1·ing that amount of money in the purchase and then the Government will take over the price, so it is as broad as it is long, and in tramw"' s at a reduced price, when they two year,' time you will be able to develop it themcelvos have been instrumental in reduc­ on your O\Yn line''· For that reason alone, ing the compan:r's profits. I cannot see any there is no justification whatsoever for this justice in that. \Ve have to bear in mind Bill. The principal ju,tification for this Bill is that. if an ag1·eement is entered into, it owing to some of the sections, particularly the should be respected. Vv'hen an agreement ie Queen-street section, being rather short. respeck·1 the parties shake hands and are The Queen-str<>et section is purely a busi­ friends for all time. because• each of them ness section. It embrace, the whole of the has e3bblished his good name. But i: one business centre of the city, and. a' a rule, of the parties to an agreement breaks faith, i~ is used only bv people of business. That and aftrrward-J he goes to the other party and section is not affected by the through ser­ wants him to lend him some more moncv. he vice. I live at the terminus of the Ked­ is reminded of his former breach of faith. ran Park linP, and I can travel from I am quite sure that, if the Home Secretary the Kedron Park terminus to the Roma was negotiating with son1c>1ne to sell his street raihyay gates, a distance of 4~ miles, bnsinc~s, he would not have delivered the fell it had the power to come to siderable congestion; but a deputation from him boforf'hand and say, "You c,mnot make the 'Windsor council waited on the company -:;uch larg0 profits as you have boon doing and made known their complaint, and the be,cause I want to buy you out ,,t a lower Yery next day section cars 'vere running, rate," the hon. gentleman wm;Jd regard the therr·by dning away with the congestion. I matter in quite a diff0rcnt light. do not deny that a considerable amount of Tho HooJE SECRETARY : This is a public OYcrcrowding does take place; but I can ntilit•·. seo how '-) e C'an get over that without Mr: SIZER : A public utility should be introducinz such drastic legislation as this. acquired ir, a fair and legitimate way. As a. n'dter of fact, we c,m regulate the .\.!though the :Minister does .not con,idcr Press traftlc, becaube every car is licensed to carry commC'nts nrry any weight. the papers which a certain number, and there must b" some have commented on this Dill are among the power to see that the car does not earn· over most influc'ntial financial organs in Great its lic,nsed number. ' Britain. I would also point ant that .1 paper l;ke the London " Times" can make or mar The HQ}!E SECRET.I.RY: Then you would the flotation of a loan. Tf such papers take have the people howling becaure they could np a loan enthusiasticRlly. it will be over­ not get home. subscribed very quickly: if they remain Mr. SIZER: The Government would then silent, there will not be the same amount of be in a po·.:ition to say that so man" people enthusiasm ovf'r it; but. if they are in open were left behind and the comnanv would be hmtilitv to tho loan, I have much doubt forcc·d to put on more car.. That would get about the success of that loan. ov

Briti'h colonies that .'uch action should repudiation or confiscation, I would not even be contemplated, and it is to be support it, because I do not believe in hoped that the Queensland Government that sort of thing. When men and will promptly be led to recognise its women engage in a legitimate calling error. Ther« appears to be little room under an Act of Parliament, no law for doubt about the rights of the com­ should be passed to repudiate an agree-­ pany.'' ment entered into under that Act." Then the "Financial News" of 9th January, That is in connection with the Liquor BilL 1918, said- The PREMIER : Are you adopting his argu­ " This is a carefully calculated art of ment.s? confiscation and had faith, and, much as it would damage the company, it Mr. SIZER: I am only just referring to would, if carried out, injure still more that point. seriously the credit and reputation of The PRE;\!IER: Humbug! Queensland." Mr. SIZER : Mr. Land makes the point " The Financier and Bullionist" of lOth that no man should be deprive<:! of his pro­ January, 1918, said- perty unless he is compensated. Then, Mr. " The legislation proposed is nothing Hamilton, speaking on page 1587 of the more or less than a. flagrant repudiation same "Hansard," made use of these words-- of the terms of the contract between the "I believe in giving compensation to Government and the company, upon the the licensees. I do not think it is right faitjl of which the tramways were ·built, to take a way the rights of the people eqwpped, and operated." without paying compensation for them. Further on it said- ~on can say that they have no moral " The Government, in attempting to nght and no legal right to ('Ompensa­ violate the original contract, is guilty of tion, but I will never give a vote in this great injustice, which, if persisted in, House to take a license awav from a man can hardly fail to prove injurious to eithe,- in twenty-four hours,· as some hon. Queensland credit, the maintenance of members say they would do, or twelve which ought to be one of the Govern­ months, without giving compemation." ment's very first considerations. Very Those two points agree, and they are very little reflection should convince it that emphatic in saying that· nothing should be any trifling advantage it may gain by taken <1way unless the owners are fully com­ acquiring the tramway undertaking at pensated for it. I say that the same thing a low cost will be more than offset by applies in connection with the tramways, as the damage its action must do to the I do not see any -difference whatsoever. I interests of the colony among the invest­ think myself that when the original grant ing classes of the mother country." was made that the question of goodwill was These opinions must be taken as of great intended to come into it when the purchase weight, as the Premier himself admitted was made- from the companv bv the muni­ that theY are of tremendous effect on the cipal authorities or the StatE>.' For that London money market. reason I looked up the "Eneyclopredia The PRE>I!IER: You know my opinion about Britannica" on the question of goodwill, and that. I have expressed it on several occa­ on page 239 it states- sions. " For purposes of the Stamp Act, the goodwill of a business is property, and :Mr. SIZER : I hn,ve not been fortunate the proper duty must be paid on the con­ enough to hear the hon. gentleman. I veyance of such." notice that the tendency of the Bill is some­ what similar to that of ·a measure which hon_ If you have to pay stamp duty on goodwill, members on the • other side vigorously then it must be considered an aeset to be opposed because, in their opinion, it would taken into considera.tion, when you are pur­ take away the rights of certain people who chasing any business, whether it be a tram­ were entitled to consideration. way or anything else. The PRE)TIER: ·what are you referring to? The H03!E SECRETARY: You have to pay Mr. SIZER: These hon. members adopted stamp duty on money passing. a very different attitude to that which the ::\1r. SIZER : Then, on page 810 of the Government are taking to-day. I intend to "Encyclopaedia Britannica," dealing with quote from " Hansard" for 1911, page 1518, the question of compensation. it says- in which the hon. member for Balonne spoke on the question of compensation to licensed " The rule of English constitutional victualler" who were likely to be de'prived law is that the property of the citizen of their licE>n·•es. He said- cannot be seized for purposes "-hich are really 'public' without fair pecuniary "A man with monev buvs land, build' equivalent being given to hi1n." an hoiei, and leases it. to somebody. That person puts the whole of his money into I quite agree with that, but the Government the )Gasc, the goodwill, and the furniture, arc taking up the attitude of de-,troying the· and I maintain that he has just as much just equivalent under this Bill. On the right to compensation if vou cancel his same page, on the question of the measure lic'ense as a selector or' anybody else of value, I find this- whose interests are interfered with:" " The basis on which compc'nsation is A little further on he said- acsessed is the commercial value of the land to the owner at the date of the " Therefore, this matter of compensa­ notice to treat. Potential Yalue may be tion is worthy of consideration. If any taken into account, and also goodwill of proposal dealing with the pastoralists the property in a. business." was brought forward, and I had the slightest impression that there was any It is perfectly clear, and I think that the 1918-4 G Mr. Siztr.] 1234 Adjournment. [CO~CIL.] I n~ome 'Tax, Etc., Bill.

GoYernment realise that it is clear that thev will have to pay for that good,;ill. They w~II reduce the profits considerably ; thus they will be able to carry out their ob]i,.ation to a certain extent, and they will pay bthe cOin· pensation which they consider is fair but :vhich,. in fact, is Yery unfair. By intr'oduc· mg th1s measure two years before: the time for t_aking ove;: the trams, they are depreciat­ mg It as a gomg concern to-dav. In conclu­ sion, I quite agree that the tramwavs should be taken o.-er by the local authorities:· Despite the figures given by the Secretary for Ra.il­ ways, I am quite prepared to accept the figures given by the leader of the Opposition. They show that a large proportion of the .shares in the Brisbane tramwavs are owned by Brisbane shareholders. The-company has given fairly good service to the people of Brisbane. I do not hold any brief for the Tramways Company at all, but they should be given credit for the good service they have rendered in developing Brisbane. They have had that recognition, but their asset should not be depreciated in any way at this juncture. The Government are depreciating their asset by introducing this Bill two years before the time for taking the trams over. The Government have been in offiee four vcars, and if theY were anxious to introduce legislation to give the people ch<>ap tram fares, why did not they introduc·c' it sooner, instead of waiting until two years before the trams are to be taken over? There is a sinish'r motiYo behind the introduction of this Bill, which is, to my mind, to depreciate the assets of the company. Mr. ELPHIKSTONE (Oxley): I beg to move the adjournment of the debate. Question put and passed. The resumption of the debate was made an Or·der of the Day for to-morrow.

POPL:LAR INITIATIVE A-:'\fD REFERE);". DUM BILL. :MEsS.\GE FR0:\1 CouNCIL. The SPEAKER announced the receipt of a message from the Legislative Council re­ turning this Bill with amendments, in which they invited the concurrence of the Assembly. Order,, cl that the Council's message be taken into consideration to-morrow.

ADJOURNMENT. The. PREMIER: I beg to move-Thut this House do now adjourn. The first business to-morrow will be tbe continuation of the second r0ading debate on the Bill to regulate the fares on the Brisbane tramways ; to be followed by the second reading of the Dingo and Marsupial Destruction Bill; Technical Instruction Act Amendment Bill, Gecond reading; and Tramways Purchase Bill, second reading. After that we can take the Council's amendments to the Popular Initiative and Referendum BilL I ma>· men· tion that it may become necessary in the near future to have an additional sitting day. Question put and passed. The House adjourliled at half-past 10 ·o'clock p.m. [Mr. Sizer.