TOWN OF PATTERSON
PLANNING BOARD MEETING May 28, 2009 Work Session
AGENDA & MINUTES
Page # 1) Guiding Eyes for the Blind – Public Hearing 22 – 23
2) Mystic Bronze – Sign Application 23 – 27
3) Tractor Supply – Sign Application 27 – 36
4) Patterson Village Condominiums – Sign 36 – 39 Application
5) Haviland Hollow Holdings – Request for 2 – 18 Waiver of Site Plan
6) Steger Property – Amended Site Plan 39 – 42 Application
7) Meadowbrook Farms – 20 – 22 Wetland/Watercourse Permit
8) Fox Run Phase II – Continued Discussion 42 – 58
9) Patterson Crossing Retail Center – 58 – 69 Continued Review
10) Other Business a. Sign Code 72 – 74 b. Town Attorney Discussion 18 – 20 c. Green Chimneys School – Generator 69 – 72 Shed
Mayfield Discussion 74 - 77
11) Minutes
PLANNING DEPARTMENT ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS P.O. Box 470 Howard Buzzutto, Chairman 1142 Route 311 Mary Bodor, Vice Chairwoman Marianne Burdick Patterson, NY 12563 Lars Olenius
Gerald Herbst Michelle Russo
Sarah Wager PLANNING BOARD Secretary Shawn Rogan, Chairman
David Pierro, Vice Chairman Richard Williams Michael Montesano Town Planner Maria Di Salvo TOWN OF PATTERSON Telephone (845) 878-6500 PLANNING & ZONING OFFICE Charles Cook FAX (845) 878-2019
Planning Board May 28, 2009 Work Session Meeting Minutes Held at the Patterson Town Hall 1142 Route 311 Patterson, NY 12563
Present were: Chairman Rogan, Board Member Pierro, Board Member Montesano, Board Member DiSalvo, Board Member Cook, Rich Williams, Town Planner, Ted Kozlowski, Town of Patterson Environmental Conservation Inspector and Carl Lodes from the Town Attorney’s office Curtiss and Leibell.
The meeting began at 7:32 p.m.
Michelle K. Russo was the Secretary and transcribed the following minutes.
The Secretary stated you’re on.
Board Member Montesano stated void.
Rich Williams stated no.
Board Member Montesano stated what we’ve got two sections now.
Chairman Rogan stated um.
The Secretary stated the second packet was a correction to the first.
Board Member Montesano stated all right, then we don’t need the first.
The Secretary stated you need them all.
Board Member Montesano stated yes, okay.
Board Member DiSalvo stated Mr. David Pirro must be recused from Board proceedings.
Board Member Montesano stated that is what I’m trying to verify.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 2
The Secretary stated you guys are on the record
Rich Williams stated yup.
Chairman Rogan stated everybody, let’s pull it together real quick so we can, we’ll get to everything in its due order. Actually, since we have Jim Byron here, generally when someone shows up to a work session, we’ll bump them ahead on the schedule so they don’t have to wait all night, does anybody have a problem with that.
Board Member Pierro stated no.
Chairman Rogan stated no, okay, Mr. Byron states for the record that he does not have a problem being first. So Haviland Hollow Holdings.
Board Member DiSalvo stated that’s you.
5) HAVILAND HOLLOW HOLDINGS – Request for Waiver for Site Plan
Mr. Jim Byron was present to represent the application.
Chairman Rogan stated we have an application, okay.
Board Member Montesano stated somewhere.
Chairman Rogan stated we have an application before us for the Patterson Automotive garage and store.
Mr. Byron stated yup.
Chairman Rogan stated to increase the size of the.
Mr. Byron stated well no, actually.
Chairman Rogan stated convenience store.
Mr. Byron stated no I want to run that, I want to scrap that, what I’m asking right now, is my existing gasoline store, I guess there is confusion. I, need clarification, do I have the right to continue now, granted, everybody here knows I fix cars for a living.
Chairman Rogan stated sure.
Mr. Byron stated but the store has always been there since the 1940’s when it was built.
Chairman Rogan stated okay.
Mr. Byron stated do I have the right to sell mercantile from that store, do I have the right to sell coffee, bottled water, pens.
Chairman Rogan stated you’re asking do you have the right under zoning. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 3
Mr. Byron stated do I have the right, yeah.
Chairman Rogan stated and that is a question that we would defer to Rich.
Mr. Byron stated forget anything about an addition.
Chairman Rogan stated right.
Mr. Byron stated because that.
Chairman Rogan stated let’s cover that one first.
Mr. Byron stated yeah let’s cover that one, do I have the current, do I have the current right to have mercantile store in that location, that cinderblock office that is there, has always been there. Since the place was open, it’s always been there.
Board Member DiSalvo stated and you’ve sold.
Mr. Byron stated always.
Chairman Rogan stated well let’s.
Mr. Byron stated well granted, I’ve got to clarify.
Chairman Rogan stated let’s first, let’s tackle this in two different stages, first off, if it didn’t exist, if it wasn’t there right now, would under the zoning, would Jim be allowed to apply for that kind of a use.
Rich Williams stated within the general business zoning district, retail to sell product commodities, is a permitted use.
Chairman Rogan stated okay.
Rich Williams stated subject to site plan approval.
Chairman Rogan stated okay, had it not been a permitted use, would there be a pre-existing non- conforming application of that zoning and if it was proven that it’s been being done for say twenty-five years.
Rich Williams stated in my opinion.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Rich Williams stated no.
Chairman Rogan stated okay but given the answer to the first question it’s possible, whether or not it exists now or not, it sounds irrelevant in terms of the zoning. So now let’s deal with what you’re actually, what you’d like to do.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 4
Mr. Byron stated okay.
Chairman Rogan stated specifically, I think we’ve probably most of us have probably all been in and out of your facility once.
Mr. Byron stated right.
Chairman Rogan stated the front office, what is the square footage of what is existing approximately.
Mr. Byron stated a hundred and fifty, two hundred square.
Chairman Rogan stated okay and the convenience, now what are you looking to sell in there.
Mr. Byron stated bottled water.
Chairman Rogan stated beverages.
Mr. Byron stated beverages.
Chairman Rogan stated coffee.
Mr. Bryon stated coffee.
Chairman Rogan stated okay.
Mr. Byron stated yup.
Board Member Pierro stated newspapers.
Chairman Rogan stated and.
Mr. Byron stated yeah, right, no cigarettes, no beer.
Board Member DiSalvo stated nobody’s buying them; good we don’t need another Mobil.
Chairman Rogan stated and the size of the increased area is that.
Mr. Byron stated we’re not going to increase, that is what I’m trying to clarify because right now we don’t have a building permit to expand anything and we just have.
Chairman Rogan stated right.
Mr. Byron stated I’m just asking do I have the right, right now to sell such items.
Chairman Rogan stated without doing any other.
Board Member DiSalvo stated in the existing square footage.
Mr. Byron stated in the existing square footage. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 5
Chairman Rogan stated it sounds like you have the right but if you weren’t currently doing it or not permitted to do it that it would subject to site plan approval or site plan waiver by the Planning Board. Because with a change, with an addition of a use, sometimes maybe not in this case but sometimes, there is a change in the requirements for parking, you know.
Mr. Byron stated right.
Chairman Rogan stated I would probably venture to say that someone is not going to just pull into your store to pick up. Well maybe they would but that would not be your largest market of people stopping just to get a soda, they would be there getting gas or getting something else.
Mr. Byron stated no, right, right.
Chairman Rogan stated and probably you know, you are certainly not looking at the same level as a Mobil Mart.
Mr. Byron stated no.
Chairman Rogan stated as much as they provide there. So, but so that I’m clear now, we have application before us.
Mr. Byron stated well yeah, that is why I came to the work session.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Mr. Byron stated and next week we are going to be at a family graduation, so I’m not going to be able to attend the meeting but I’m just, my current, my current. My existing structure and my existing business, do I have the legal right to have a mercantile store, associated with my gas store and that is just why I’m, if I have clarification on that.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Mr. Byron stated then that just goes and stop me if I’m wrong Rich, does that then, if we have clarification on that and we are okay with that. Does that mean that I then just have to go to the Planning, for a future building permits, does this have to come back to this office.
Board Member DiSalvo stated the temperature of the water, cold.
Rich Williams stated I think the issue is this. You know, you’ve got an existing gas business out there and within in our Code, the gas service business or the automotive business or the mechanics business all have the right to sell product associated with those business.
Mr. Byron stated and over the years those products have changed.
Rich Williams stated I understand.
Mr. Byron stated you are not lining the shelves any longer with motor oil and spark plugs and things that people, the motoring public twenty-five years ago needed on a regular basis. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 6
Rich Williams stated sure.
Mr. Byron stated now you’ve changed over to.
Chairman Rogan stated windshield washer fluid.
Mr. Byron stated yeah.
Chairman Rogan stated certainly people want that.
Mr. Byron stated bottled water, I mean everyday you’ve got to have a hundred people looking for a bottled water.
Rich Williams stated I think, as long as you are talking about product that is associated, somehow with automotive repair or use, you’re fine. When you start moving over to the bottled water and soda and breads and other commodities like that, then you are getting into more of a retail use which has not been, traditionally what you’ve done out there.
Mr. Byron stated is there a Code on that, is there something that says that.
Rich Williams stated yeah.
Mr. Byron stated because you’re saying I can have an auto parts store, right and I’m good to go, no.
Rich Williams stated I’m not saying you can have an auto parts store, I’m saying if you’re selling as an accessory or ancillary use.
Mr. Byron stated yeah.
Rich Williams stated to the gas business or the automotive business, oil, windshield wipe fluid, windshield wiper. You know parts that are being delivered from Levine or somebody like that, you know, that’s fine but when you get into a strictly retail operation, that is not the use that is permitted out there in the opinion of the three individuals who are charged with application of the Zoning Code in the Town. I mean all three individuals on this, have agreed on this, so, hence you’re trying to do something that is not hereto for been permitted on the site, which is why you’re here to the Planning Board.
Mr. Byron stated well work session, this is a work session right.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah but it’s a public meeting.
Rich Williams stated the Planning Board is the Planning Board.
Mr. Byron stated it doesn’t matter.
Chairman Rogan stated it’s the same as a regular.
Board Member DiSalvo stated did you ever at one time sell any food in there.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 7
Mr. Byron stated oh yeah.
Chairman Rogan stated Jim I wanted to ask you, do you have an Ag and Markets permit for selling grocery.
Mr. Byron stated I. . .
Chairman Rogan stated you would know if you did.
Mr. Byron stated I would know if I did.
Chairman Rogan stated because you would need one for what you’re talking about, it wouldn’t be a Health Department thing but it would.
Mr. Byron stated well no, you would need a Board of Health; you would need a Board of Health.
Chairman Rogan stated no, no, it’s grocery, you would not be under Health Department and you would be under Ag and Markets.
Mr. Byron stated I did look into Board of Health; we are not going to sell any items that would require that.
Chairman Rogan stated no, it would be an Ag and Markets permit.
Mr. Byron stated unless I want a cappuccino machine.
Chairman Rogan stated it would still be Ag and Markets.
Mr. Byron stated that’s Board of Health, correct.
Chairman Rogan stated Ag and Markets.
Mr. Byron stated Ag and Markets.
Chairman Rogan stated New York State Ag and Markets.
Mr. Byron stated okay, I haven’t gone to that level and this just all developed over the last.
Board Member DiSalvo stated what did you sell years ago.
Board Member Montesano stated the soda machine that used to be outside between the garage.
Mr. Byron stated yeah and there was one inside and one outside and.
Board Member Montesano stated that’s.
Mr. Byron stated I’m still one of the largest purchasers from Poland Spring bottled water and coffee.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 8
Mr. Byron stated I mean, I’m one of the largest purchasers on his route, whether we choose to sell it or give it away, we are large purchaser. I’m just trying to get feedback.
Chairman Rogan stated sure.
Mr. Byron stated if we need to, if we need to go to the next step at this level, then we need to go to the next step at this level, I just.
Chairman Rogan stated right.
Mr. Byron stated we are going to drag out.
Chairman Rogan stated well we haven’t even gotten to that discussion yet, you are still focusing around whether or not what you have either been doing or would like to do is permitted or acceptable.
Mr. Byron stated yeah and you’re saying tonight, you’re saying tonight that what I’m currently asking, what I have the right to do, I don’t have the right to do, I can not be considered a retail store as it stands.
Chairman Rogan stated its sounds like without either site plan approval from the Planning Board or site plan waiver, am I correct in that and.
Mr. Byron stated and is there an actual site plan on my property.
Chairman Rogan stated I thought you had said there wasn’t.
Rich Williams stated I don’t.
Board Member Pierro stated that is fairly new construction, I would think there would be something.
Rich Williams stated there is not actually a site plan.
Board Member Montesano stated there has never been one, as long as I can remember.
Rich Williams stated for his business and I did this in the memo, identified you know some of the past history on this because I always do. He in the past has gotten permission to restore an area that was previously used for parking cars and he is.
Mr. Byron stated right, used car lot.
Rich Williams stated gotten two site plan waivers from the Planning Board.
Board Member DiSalvo stated right, right, we did it a few years ago.
Rich Williams stated one in ‘89 and one is ‘94 or ‘95.
Mr. Byron stated ‘94.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 9
Rich Williams stated so but no, there is actually on file, no site plan, there is a survey, we do have a survey.
Mr. Byron stated right, its mine, its not from the original owner.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah and Jim, based on this information, I probably would have pushed for a site plan, not a site plan waiver but a site plan for a fifteen hundred square foot addition. When someone comes in and we have these cases all the time and they don’t have a site plan, we look at and try to balance what the new use is going to be. Whether or not its going to be an enlargement of the facility and if so, how big that is.
Mr. Byron stated yup.
Chairman Rogan stated you know what consequence that has to parking to the site layout, et cetera. So back in 95 when you did the fifteen hundred square foot addition, I probably would have pushed for a site plan back then. Having said that, if you take three hundred square foot of interior use and don’t expand the building, I’m not so certain I would ask for a site plan. If you expand out of the building four hundred square foot and add on to the building.
Mr. Byron stated yup.
Chairman Rogan stated and now you’d be taking what you’re showing as some of your parking maybe that is the trigger, I don’t know. For the conversation of this Board.
Board Member Montesano stated is that the question, he says he’s not going to be able to come in for the expansion, so we’ve got the other one straightened out. He’s asking basically and you can correct me anytime.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Board Member Montesano stated basically can he sell a cup of coffee or a bottle of water.
Board Member DiSalvo stated right.
Board Member Montesano stated that is what he’s asking tonight.
Chairman Rogan stated but that question is the first part of the bigger picture here, as far as I’m concerned, unless I’m missing something, it sounds like.
Board Member DiSalvo stated well he doesn’t, you don’t want to expand right.
Mr. Byron stated well I’m not.
Board Member Montesano stated well he’s not going to expand here, from what I understand this is space is in here, is not going to be here for next week.
Chairman Rogan stated he didn’t come here though tonight because of saying can I sell coffee or not, he came in because he’s applying for a building permit to increase the area.
Mr. Byron stated I was denied that permit. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 10
Chairman Rogan stated but you applied for it, meaning you were looking to expand.
Board Member Pierro stated we’re out of chairs Ted.
Chairman Rogan stated if you went to the Building Department.
Ted Kozlowski stated yeah.
Chairman Rogan stated Jim if you went to the Building Department and said Building Inspector I would like to know if I can sell coffee in my shop.
Mr. Byron stated yup.
Chairman Rogan stated he wouldn’t have said, he would have said you’re not applying for a permit from me, that is not my purview, he obviously sent you over to us because he saw that there was a building permit filed, assuming you filed a building permit.
Mr. Byron stated not yet.
Chairman Rogan stated you questioned about a building permit.
Mr. Byron stated yeah.
Chairman Rogan stated okay, did you show them any plans for that.
Mr. Byron stated yeah.
Chairman Rogan stated did those plans show an addition to the facility.
Mr. Byron stated yes.
Chairman Rogan stated so then, let’s not draw this all out of you, please be up front with us.
Mr. Byron stated no, no, I know that but I’m just trying to get clarification of what I currently have and what I’m currently allowed to do. Because if I am currently allowed to do a retail then when I do go back to the Building Department, then he shouldn’t have a reason to swing it back over to the Planning Board.
Chairman Rogan stated no, I disagree because it depends on whether you’re expanding that, the expansion would be what he would send you back here for. Even if tonight we said yes, you’re all set, you’re selling coffee right now, in the hundred and fifty square foot you have.
Mr. Byron stated yup.
Chairman Rogan stated now you go back to Nick, Nick.
Rich Williams stated yeah.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 11
Chairman Rogan stated and you say Nick, I want to make that hundred and fifty square foot, six hundred square foot, you are changing the intensity of that use. You are changing what potentially would be the amount of traffic and other impacts to the site. I’m not saying those impacts are significant but if he was doing his job properly, he would still send you back to us for an evaluation and.
Board Member DiSalvo stated so where would you want it enlarged on here.
Rich Williams stated Teddy’s here, sorry.
Chairman Rogan stated hello Ted.
Ted Kozlowski stated I made a mess.
Mr. Byron stated well we’re putting, we have a plan established that this is coming out here.
Board Member Montesano stated this is getting reduced, he’s got this in (inaudible).
Mr. Byron stated this is going back and going across, this is going to be an office area for my current business.
Board Member DiSalvo stated so all of this would be the.
Mr. Byron stated and that would be, this would bump out over to here.
Board Member DiSalvo stated oh okay but not here.
Mr. Byron stated so this area and this area would double in size.
Board Member DiSalvo stated okay, just this way.
Mr. Byron stated yeah but that’s only.
Board Member Montesano stated all right (inaudible) going to the building, the object, the only question I understand he’s asking is can he do the bread, the milk, the coffee and the water.
Board Member DiSalvo stated in the area that you have.
Board Member Montesano stated in the area you have current now.
Board Member Pierro stated in the current condition.
Rich Williams stated and I’m going to stop this and I will let Carl jump in and finish it off but the reality is you’ve got an individual charged with the enforcement of zoning, he’s made a determination, the only Board that can interpret that interpretation is the Zoning Board of Appeals. This Board is without the authority to question that.
Chairman Rogan stated right.
Board Member Montesano stated fine. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 12
Chairman Rogan stated fine.
Rich Williams stated I thought you were in here for looking to do the retail in the existing building that was the conversation you and I had.
Mr. Byron stated but I’m trying to get clarification on what I currently have.
Board Member Pierro stated again I think you’re at the wrong Board.
Rich Williams stated and I can tell you, I’ve talked to Nick about this, I’ve talked with Dave, Dave has issue a memo and Nick has issued a memo.
Mr. Byron stated yup.
Rich Williams stated and I think we are all in agreement that you have an existing use out there established as a gas station, automotive/body repair business, automotive repair business, all permitted within our Code.
Mr. Byron stated yup.
Rich Williams stated but that doesn’t extend to having a retail area within that now having said that, if you had a soda machine in there.
Mr. Byron stated yup.
Rich Williams stated we would probably all consider that ancillary to the gas business.
Mr. Byron stated and an ice cream freezer and a coffee pot.
Rich Williams stated well you know; now you’re.
Mr. Byron stated yeah it’s just, it’s always been there.
Rich Williams stated I don’t go do site inspections out on your site, so I don’t know what you have on the interior.
Mr. Byron stated right.
Board Member DiSalvo stated how long ago was it not there, how long.
Board Member Montesano stated its there, if you go in to get a repair, you can get a cup of coffee.
Board Member DiSalvo stated oh I’ve never, I usually, the guy just usually pumps my gas, I don’t get out of the car anymore, I’m just trying to get.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 13
Mr. Byron stated so what we are saying tonight, so what we are saying tonight then is that we need to present, we need to bring, we need to present the addition to this Board that I’m proposing.
Chairman Rogan stated let us know what you want to do, I can’t say it any plainer than that.
Mr. Byron stated that’s gonna, well that’s just gonna require bringing the engineer in, its not me.
Chairman Rogan stated you already had a set of plans that you showed the Building Inspector, right.
Mr. Byron stated yes.
Chairman Rogan stated we are not looking for engineered plans at this point, we want to get an idea of what you want to do.
Mr. Byron stated yeah.
Chairman Rogan stated we could very well, its within our right, Jim, just to be clear, for you present us the sketch that you have from, that you showed Nick.
Mr. Byron stated yeah.
Chairman Rogan stated and us review it and say well you’ve got already a site plan here, site plan, a sketch that shows the parking layout, it shows the existing area. You delineate a proposed area, square footage, we determine maybe we go take a site walk but maybe we determine that its negligible, we say okay, based on this sketch and contingent upon getting plans to the Building Inspector that are acceptable for a building permit, we can issue a site plan waiver. That doesn’t mean hiring an engineer and going through the whole process.
Board Member DiSalvo stated right.
Chairman Rogan stated but we don’t, you’re not giving us anything, you haven’t given us anything tonight to base that on, in fairness, right.
Mr. Byron stated yup, yeah, no, no, no.
Chairman Rogan stated so that is the way the process, the way I would see it.
Mr. Byron stated that is why I asked to come to the work session, so I got a handle on what I was looking to do.
Chairman Rogan stated right, so sometimes and it certainly depends on the area of the extension.
Mr. Byron stated are the plans here for the expansion, are they in the building.
Rich Williams stated what you showed Nick or Dave.
Mr. Byron stated yeah.
Rich Williams stated I don’t believe they are. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 14
Board Member Pierro stated they are probably in there locked away.
Rich Williams stated no, I looked through the file today, there was nothing in the file.
Board Member Pierro stated oh okay.
Mr. Byron stated then the architect took them back that day from that meeting.
Board Member Pierro stated okay.
Chairman Rogan stated so why don’t you, between now and next meeting, even though you’re not going to be here, get us, get us whatever the architect had prepared.
Mr. Byron stated yup.
Chairman Rogan stated based on our conversation and then maybe something in writing that says this is what I want to do.
Mr. Byron stated yup.
Chairman Rogan stated really, I’m so that we are clear, this Board’s intention is not to waste your money or spin your wheels, whatever but we do have to have a clear idea of what you want to do. We can’t give a site plan waiver and say Jim have a ball, we trust you, go do whatever you want with the site, give us something that we can make a decision on and we’ll either decide that here this is significant enough that we are going to have to see a site plan.
Mr. Byron stated yup.
Chairman Rogan stated it may not be a full blown site plan, we’ve waived other parts of it or its insignificant to the site, to the overall use of the site. Its not creating a safety concern and we are willing to waive the site and do just what you’ve done for the other expansion.
Board Member DiSalvo stated and then with that, with our waiver, you would go right to the Building Department.
Chairman Rogan stated exactly.
Board Member Pierro stated right.
Chairman Rogan stated so.
Mr. Byron stated okay.
Chairman Rogan stated is that clear.
Mr. Byron stated yup.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 15
Chairman Rogan stated because I don’t want there to be any confusion because this conversation started out convoluted enough.
Board Member Pierro stated right.
My. Byron stated well I just through that question out, that’s why.
Chairman Rogan stated understood.
My. Bryon stated so just to be clear, if I, If I can get, I will get the plans here to your office and it will be presented at the next, this coming.
Chairman Rogan stated next week.
Board Member DiSalvo stated yeah, next week.
Rich Williams stated as soon as you get them to me, I will get them to all the members and they can start looking at them.
Mr. Byron stated they are big, do you need copies of them or.
Rich Williams stated well.
Chairman Rogan stated unless he takes just one set.
Board Member DiSalvo stated (inaudible) down for something like that.
Board Member Pierro stated one set.
Chairman Rogan stated we would need more than one for the file but.
Rich Williams stated when you say big, are you talking about multiple sheets or are you talking about one big plan.
Mr. Byron stated he rolls them out because it’s the footing, it’s the this, it’s the that.
Rich Williams stated for Planning Board, you don’t want to do all that, what you want to do is show the site.
Mr. Byron stated yeah.
Rich Williams stated show where the building is going to be expanded, maybe show what you’re going to do on the interior, maybe one or two sheets.
Mr. Byron stated yeah, on the face.
Chairman Rogan stated right.
Rich Williams stated so. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 16
Mr. Byron stated on the face of the building, that would be more important.
Board Member Pierro stated right.
Chairman Rogan stated or the plan view looking straight down on, like this.
Rich Williams stated if you have the set.
Mr. Bryon stated yeah.
Board Member DiSalvo stated yeah.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Rich Williams stated if I can do this with you Jim, if you have the set or the architect, have him call me.
Mr. Byron stated he’s got it.
Rich Williams stated swing in, I’ll go through, the Planning Board only needs sheets 8 A, D and E.
Mr. Byron stated yup, okay.
Rich Williams stated and that will probably be the easiest way to do it.
Mr. Byron stated okay.
Board Member DiSalvo stated and do you still want to keep this area parking here.
Mr. Byron stated I’ll bring in the, the plans for the building permit, those I will bring in and that will omit that.
Board Member DiSalvo stated okay, good and then.
Mr. Byron stated that will be.
Board Member DiSalvo stated that is going to be like another phase.
Mr. Byron stated that is the current, that’s the current, that is what I bought that for.
Chairman Rogan stated okay.
Mr. Byron stated because I just wanted to get clarification on what I currently have.
Chairman Rogan stated and.
Board Member DiSalvo stated did he.
Chairman Rogan stated you know, if we. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 17
Board Member DiSalvo stated do you want to do extra signage on that or no.
Mr. Byron stated no.
Board Member DiSalvo stated because then we can wrap everything in on one thing, so you’re not going to add any signs to this part of it.
Mr. Byron stated no additional signage, no.
Board Member DiSalvo stated okay.
Chairman Rogan stated all right.
Mr. Byron stated there is signage on the building right now.
Chairman Rogan stated so I think that, that seems pretty fair, get us something we can look at, that shows what you’d like to do and we can take a look at it and see what the Board’s opinion is. That is what we are supposed to do.
Mr. Byron stated okay.
Chairman Rogan stated do our due diligence, we appreciate your time.
Board Member Pierro stated thank you.
Mr. Byron stated okay, thank you. That is why I wanted to come in and just clarify.
Chairman Rogan stated great.
Board Member Pierro stated all right Jim.
My. Byron stated all right, thank you and I’ll see you in another day or two.
Board Member DiSalvo stated and you have a copy.
Mr. Byron stated I have a copy.
Chairman Rogan stated and enjoy your trip.
Mr. Byron stated yeah that’s Thursday. Have a good evening.
Chairman Rogan stated have a good evening. Okay, again.
Board Member DiSalvo stated this is my pile.
Board Member Montesano stated yeah I know.
Chairman Rogan stated giving the. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 18
Board Member DiSalvo stated this was back in my box.
Rich Williams stated yeah I probably made a copy and gave it back to you, so you have it for your files and you got a check.
Board Member DiSalvo stated oh, I didn’t even, I saw something in there but I didn’t open it up yet.
Chairman Rogan stated okay, giving the same benefit to Mr. Byron, to Ms. Larkin, does anybody object to moving Meadowbrook Farms up on the agenda so we can deal with this sooner rather then having Ms. Larkin wait all night.
Rich Williams stated do you want to do Other Business b. first.
Board Member DiSalvo stated b.
Board Member Pierro stated yes.
10) OTHER BUSINESS
b. Town Attorney Discussion
Chairman Rogan stated you want to do that before, does that.
Board Member Pierro stated yes, yes.
Chairman Rogan stated relate to, okay. Carl, you want to.
Carl Lodes stated you may want to go into Executive Session.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah, I was just going to ask you, you want to do Executive Session for a short while
Board Member DiSalvo stated Executive Session.
Chairman Rogan stated and just to talk about policies and procedures and we’ll come back and Ms. Larkin we’ll do Meadowbrook, okay, so you don’t have to wait too long.
Ms. Larkin stated thanks.
Chairman Rogan stated you want to go into the.
Carl Lodes stated make a motion to go into Executive Session.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah, can I, motion for Executive Session.
Board Member Pierro stated I make a motion we go into Executive Session.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 19
Board Member DiSalvo seconded the motion.
Chairman Rogan asks for all in favor:
Board Member Cook - aye Board Member DiSalvo - aye Board Member Montesano - aye Board Member Pierro - aye Chairman Rogan - aye
Motion carries by a vote of 5 to 0.
Chairman Rogan stated okay.
Board Member Montesano stated I am going to recuse myself from this proceeding.
Board Member DiSalvo stated the time is what five to eight.
Rich Williams stated no, I don’t think you have to.
Chairman Rogan stated okay.
Board Member DiSalvo stated its (inaudible).
Chairman Rogan stated let me ask, before you turn it off, does the context of the discussion, is it stuff that is general nature to the all Town business that Mike should be part of.
Carl Lodes stated that is up to you, the first or second part, which ever way you prefer it, I have two things (inaudible).
Chairman Rogan stated okay, so why don’t we do the one that is more general first so Mike can be in and then he’ll recuse himself.
Board Member DiSalvo stated you can’t come in.
The Secretary stated not unless you invite me.
Chairman Rogan stated for, okay, thank you.
The Board goes into Executive Session.
Board Member Montesano stated okay.
Board Member DiSalvo stated go take a walk.
Chairman Rogan stated you don’t have to go, I mean you know.
Board Member Montesano stated I’ll just sit here.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 20
Chairman Rogan stated just don’t be part of the, just be an innocent bystander.
Board Member Montesano stated audience.
The Secretary stated (inaudible).
Chairman Rogan stated okay, we are back from Executive Session, we have Meadowbrook.
Board Member DiSalvo stated its eight thirty.
Rich Williams stated do a motion.
Chairman Rogan stated a motion to.
Carl Lodes stated to come out of Executive Session.
Chairman Rogan stated can I have a motion to come back from Executive Session to our work session.
Board Member DiSalvo stated so moved.
Board Member Pierro stated so moved.
Chairman Rogan stated second.
Board Member Pierro seconded the motion.
Chairman Rogan asks for all in favor:
Board Member Cook - aye Board Member DiSalvo - aye Board Member Montesano - aye Board Member Pierro - aye Chairman Rogan - aye
Motion carries by a vote of 5 to 0.
7) MEADOWBROOK FARMS – Wetland/Watercouse Permit
Ms. Dian Larkin was present to represent the application.
Chairman Rogan stated okay we are talking about Meadowbrook Farms, not yet, Mike you are still recused from the meeting. We are on Meadowbrook Farms wetlands/watercourse permit application, we have more information over the last few weeks that we’ve been given, we’ve been reading through. Does anybody have anything new that they would like to discuss on this application, anybody.
Board Member Pierro stated I haven’t had the opportunity to totally review the comments made by, the written comment provided by the HOA’s counsel. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 21
Chairman Rogan stated okay.
Board Member Pierro stated I don’t think anyone has.
Chairman Rogan stated no, I haven’t read them all yet.
Board Member Pierro stated we just received them tonight.
Chairman Rogan stated okay. Ms. Larkin, anything this evening or are you just here to observe.
Ms. Larkin stated oh I can say one thing.
Chairman Rogan stated just from the standpoint of if there is anything you would like to bring up in terms of anything new from last meeting or are we. We haven’t had a change to fully read or digest the letters that we’ve gotten but we will for next meeting. We are going to move on to the next topic unless there is anything that you need to.
Ms. Larkin stated my problem is that, I stated in the meeting, I thought you gave him too long to respond because now I have to for shorten response time and I’m concerned that when we get to the meeting next Thursday I really don’t want to and I can’t tell you how to run your Planning Board but I would appreciate it if I don’t hear well I didn’t really get to look at that the response because we didn’t have time because.
Chairman Rogan stated understood.
Ms. Larkin stated we didn’t get his until today and, so that is not in your concerns.
Chairman Rogan stated understood, okay, thank you.
Carl Lodes stated can I ask the question.
Chairman Rogan stated please.
Carl Lodes stated are you making an additional submission or (inaudible).
The Secretary stated I need Carl to speak up.
Chairman Rogan stated Carl, can you speak up please.
Carl Lodes stated sorry, I’m just asking are you going to be making an additional submission in response to Mr. Stenger.
Ms. Larkin stated yes.
Carl Lodes stated when can you get that response in.
Ms. Larkin stated I have trial on Monday, you know, its going to be tough to get it in, that is why I didn’t want this to be delayed and I asked specifically that he not be given til the 28th to turn this in because its too short of time to respond and I do need to respond. I’ll do the best I can. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 22
Chairman Rogan stated sure.
Ms. Larkin stated I mean, I’ll get it in as soon as I can, I don’t know how much sooner than Wednesday I can get it in because I’m going to be in trial on Monday with other projects.
Chairman Rogan stated okay.
Carl Lodes stated if you can e-mail it to me or fax it to me.
Ms. Larkin stated certainly I can do that.
Carl Lodes stated so (inaudible).
Ms. Larkin stated I’ll get it, I’ll certainly make ever effort to get it to you as soon as I can.
Chairman Rogan stated thank you.
Ms. Larkin stated but I have to research case law now and.
Chairman Rogan stated we certainly acknowledge the complexities of the issue, okay. So, why don’t we jump back now to the beginning of the agenda, we’ll let Mike know that he can re-join the Board meeting.
Board Member DiSalvo stated Mike.
Rich Williams stated he went home.
Chairman Rogan stated he left.
Ted Kozlowski stated he found the other candy bowl.
Rich Williams stated he found the ice cream in the freezer.
Ted Kozlowski stated he found the ice cream.
1) GUIDING EYES FOR THE BLIND – Public Hearing
Chairman Rogan stated okay, we have Guiding Eyes for the Blind on the first, for public hearing, they are through Zoning Board, has Zoning Board taken.
Rich Williams stated they are through Zoning Board, the variance for both the extension of the non- conforming use and the height variance were granted by the Zoning Board of Appeals.
Ted Kozlowski stated the wetland have been verified in (inaudible).
Chairman Rogan stated let the record show that Mike Montesano has rejoined, okay.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 23
Rich Williams stated you have a, in your packages, you do have a review memo that was completed by Maser, I have not completed by review on the project, as of yet, I will get it to you shortly.
Board Member DiSalvo stated which project is this.
Board Member Pierro stated Guiding Eyes.
Chairman Rogan stated Guiding Eyes.
Board Member Cook stated now Rich, in addition to the hard copy we get in our mail, if you could e-mail us.
Rich Williams stated yup.
Board Member Cook stated that would help, we get a chance to review it.
Rich Williams stated its getting close to being complete now.
Chairman Rogan stated okay, anybody have anything else on Guiding Eyes for tonight.
2) MYSTIC BRONZE – Sign Application
Chairman Rogan stated Mystic Bronze, remember we had sent them a letter about their temporary sign.
Rich Williams stated Mystic Bronze.
The Secretary stated in their packet.
Rich Williams stated I think they have a little, wasn’t there a big one.
The Secretary stated it was, the original sign.
Rich Williams stated no, no, no, the original, the little one that came in.
The Secretary stated it was in color and should have been in everybody’s packet.
Rich Williams stated okay, I thought it was (inaudible).
The Secretary stated it was all little, yeah, I couldn’t make it bigger.
Chairman Rogan stated okay, so Mystic Bronze Tanning is requesting a six month extension on her temporary sign approval, due to the economic times, its short.
Board Member Pierro state on the motion Mr. Chairman.
Rich Williams stated before you do the motion, have you read the memo that I did.
Board Member Pierro stated um, the project review, dated May 28th. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 24
Chairman Rogan stated SEQR Determination.
Rich Williams stated well its not so much that, she had submitted a letter, requesting an extension. At the same time it almost appears that she is also looking to place a neon sign within the window, rather than you know, the sign that was originally approved.
Chairman Rogan stated why don’t we let her, why don’t we just give her an extension on the originally approved sign and tell her we are not comfortable with the day glow, fluorescent colored.
Rich Williams stated that’s fine, I just wanted to make sure that the Board was aware of a full application.
Chairman Rogan stated so is this, this is the attached picture, the color photo is.
Board Member Cook stated that would be the neon sign.
Rich Williams stated yes.
Board Member DiSalvo stated the problem is, there are neon signs in every other store in that shopping center.
Chairman Rogan stated but not as, are they like window signs, things they’ve added.
Board Member Pierro stated they are not permitted, either.
Chairman Rogan stated that’s a good point.
Board Member Cook stated in addition, day glow or fluorescent colors are not permitted, which is this, we believe this is.
Rich Williams stated well that is subject to interpretation, if you think that presents a carnival like atmosphere, day glow or.
Board Member Cook stated fluorescent.
Rich Williams stated fluorescent.
Board Member Montesano stated well then you can argue that it is tanning salon and the object of having a tan is to be down in the nice warm climate.
Board Member DiSalvo stated jovial.
Board Member Montesano stated with mai tais, et cetera, et cetera.
Chairman Rogan stated why don’t we do this.
Board Member Montesano stated (inaudible).
Chairman Rogan stated why don’t we consider an approval of the. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 25
Board Member Pierro stated grant the extension.
Chairman Rogan stated grant the extension for the sign that we had previously approved and everybody take a look at this sign, as it relates to the drive by, we are all in that plaza all the time. We can always, at a later date go back to this approve it next week.
Board Member Montesano stated no, what I’m looking at is, she’s, apparently this sign is cheaper than putting up the regular sign.
Board Member DiSalvo stated right.
Rich Williams stated it should already be up, well the big sign on the building yes.
Board Member Montesano stated well the object is, if we don’t, if that’s not fitting, how can we ever approve it because it doesn’t, theoretically fit.
Chairman Rogan stated oh, oh, I’m sorry.
Board Member Montesano stated because at the bottom of that, it says it does. So, why don’t we just tell her to disregard her neon sign and get the regular sign.
Board Member Pierro stated that’s what, I thought that was part of the plan.
Board Member Montesano stated yeah, I’m just saying.
Rich Williams stated but I think in the in term, Shawn is suggesting that you give her a temporary improvement so the sign that she’s got there, she can keep up.
Board Member Pierro stated right.
Board Member Cook stated right.
Chairman Rogan stated and this, as I read her memo, the neon sign is not currently on site, its something she would like to do as an alternative to her original application.
Board Member Pierro stated right.
Chairman Rogan stated so let’s give her the sign that she had temporarily approved. We can go out and take a look, we have a picture of what this would look like.
Board Member Pierro stated we don’t need SEQR on a temporary sign do we.
Rich Williams stated you’re just granting her an extension.
Board Member Montesano stated granting her an extension on the original.
Board Member Pierro stated on the motion Mr. Chairman.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 26
Chairman Rogan stated go right ahead sir.
Board Member Pierro stated in the matter of Mystic Bronze Tanning Salon, Route 22 Patterson, I make a motion that we extend that approval for the six square foot temporary sign that was placed on the building, oh boy.
Chairman Rogan stated well it was approved August 28th of 08.
Board Member Pierro stated yes, it was approved on August 28th.
Chairman Rogan stated can I have a second.
Board Member Pierro stated so moved.
Board Member Montesano seconded the motion.
Chairman Rogan asks for all in favor:
Board Member Cook - aye Board Member DiSalvo - aye Board Member Montesano - aye Board Member Pierro - aye Chairman Rogan - aye
Motion carries by a vote of 5 to 0.
Chairman Rogan stated okay, maybe we can reach out to.
Board Member Cook stated I mean by default she’s getting a nine month.
Board Member Pierro stated right.
Board Member DiSalvo stated how long do you want to extend it for.
Board Member Montesano stated six months.
Board Member Pierro stated six months.
Board Member Cook stated six months from tonight.
Board Member Pierro stated six months from.
Board Member DiSalvo stated when did it expire, more than six months.
Board Member Pierro stated we gave her six months in February.
Chairman Rogan stated initially it was six months, it went from August to February.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 27
Board Member Cook stated okay so you want to do it three months from now, the extension is another three months from now.
Chairman Rogan stated oh, I understand, yeah, yeah okay.
Board Member DiSalvo stated (inaudible).
Board Member Cook stated extension.
Board Member Pierro stated that wasn’t my motion, my motion was to give her a six month approval from now.
Chairman Rogan stated so do it six months from now.
Board Member DiSalvo stated all right (inaudible).
Board Member Pierro stated from now, a six month approval starting on May 28, 2009.
Chairman Rogan stated but thank you Charlie, for that.
Board Member Pierro stated I have gut feeling and I’m not, not from my mouth to God’s ears but I have a gut feeling this isn’t going to last that long anyway, I heard she’s dying over there, it’s a shame, she’s got a lot of money invested, this may go away.
3) TRACTOR SUPPLY – Sign Application
Chairman Rogan stated okay Tractor Supply, we also.
Board Member Cook stated that is not for us to judge.
Board Member Pierro stated nope.
Chairman Rogan stated Tractor Supply, we also have a sign application.
Rich Williams stated they have actually submitted applications for three separate signs.
Chairman Rogan stated great.
Board Member Montesano stated they are all within Code.
Board Member DiSalvo stated do we have them, do we have copies or samples or.
Rich Williams stated yeah, you should.
Chairman Rogan stated they are in the packet, it looks like this on top.
Board Member DiSalvo stated too many papers here.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 28
Board Member Montesano stated all right, so in the matter of.
Chairman Rogan stated whoa, whoa, wait a second.
Board Member Montesano stated no, no, we got.
Board Member Pierro stated where are you going Mike.
Board Member Montesano stated we have to do a SEQR on the sign.
Board Member Pierro stated not on.
Board Member DiSalvo stated for the temporary.
Board Member Pierro stated not on the temporary sign, its was an extension.
Board Member Montesano stated I’m talking about Tractor Supply.
Rich Williams stated he’s on Tractor Supply.
Board Member Pierro stated oh okay.
Board Member Montesano stated we have to get a SEQR on Tractor Supply.
Board Member Cook stated time out.
Board Member Montesano stated getting ahead of things.
Chairman Rogan stated I wanted to see first where the heck the signs are going to be located.
Rich Williams stated find them.
Board Member Montesano stated that was in the memo.
Chairman Rogan stated monument sign.
Board Member DiSalvo stated (inaudible).
Chairman Rogan stated okay, so that’s one. Okay, Rich, or someone help me out, we have one at the entrance, one at the center front of the store.
Rich Williams stated and the third one is not shown.
Chairman Rogan stated ah.
Board Member DiSalvo stated the temporary.
Rich Williams stated all right, you got one here, you got one on the store, they are proposing the other one, its going to be right here but its on a sketch. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 29
Board Member Montesano stated is that the sixty footer job.
Rich Williams stated that is the temporary one.
Chairman Rogan stated oh.
Board Member DiSalvo stated that is going to vinyl.
Board Member Pierro stated allumilite.
Rich Williams stated I think its going to be like a vinyl panel stretched across.
Board Member DiSalvo stated like (inaudible).
Rich Williams stated its going to go in the back, yes.
Board Member Pierro stated still don’t see where.
Rich Williams stated you have one down here.
Board Member Pierro stated right, right.
Rich Williams stated this is permanent, you’ve got one over here, which is building mounted.
Board Member Pierro stated store front, right.
Rich Williams stated and the temporary they have a separate sketch in the packet which places it right about here.
Chairman Rogan stated which is this one, coming soon.
Board Member Pierro stated yeah but.
Rich Williams stated what.
Board Member Pierro stated is there any exposure to this sign, from the road.
Board Member DiSalvo stated that’s there problem.
Board Member Pierro stated not until they pull that mountain down.
Board Member DiSalvo stated they are doing it.
Rich Williams stated which they are doing but what they did, they said they wanted to put it fifty feet off of the white line. Here is the white line.
Board Member Pierro stated right.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 30
Rich Williams stated all right, here is fifty feet, its still in the DOT right of way, my recommendation to the Board is simply approve the temporary sign for them to place it on their property.
Board Member Pierro stated okay.
Rich Williams stated good to go.
Chairman Rogan stated the.
Rich Williams stated yes.
Chairman Rogan stated the sign, the free standing sign out by the road, what are these columns underneath the sign.
Rich Williams stated if you look at it, they are aluminum material with a masonry over flow.
Board Member DiSalvo stated like A & P’s.
Chairman Rogan stated its just pulling in the colors of what the building will be.
Rich Williams stated I hope.
Chairman Rogan stated I mean, otherwise is doesn’t say anything, just decorative feature.
Rich Williams stated purely decorative.
Chairman Rogan stated all right, are they considered as part of the sign or.
Rich Williams stated they are what’s holding the sign up.
Board Member DiSalvo stated new footing (inaudible).
Board Member Pierro stated that is when you know its there.
Board Member DiSalvo stated well.
Board Member Montesano stated by the time you pull up to it, you’re there.
Board Member DiSalvo stated well with that one, you know.
Board Member Pierro stated is there any reason why we have to wrap for this tonight, are they in a rush to get the temporary sign.
Board Member DiSalvo stated you want to do the temporary one.
Rich Williams stated they haven’t said anything to me one way or the other.
Chairman Rogan stated we can do the whole thing next week if you want, its up to you guys.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 31
Board Member Pierro stated yeah.
Chairman Rogan stated you know, whatever you guys want.
Board Member Pierro stated well its up to the Board, whatever.
Board Member Cook stated all the signs meet the Code, correct Richard.
Rich Williams stated yes.
Board Member Pierro stated seven three.
Board Member Cook stated on the temporary sign, the approvals given, part of the approval has to be that its on.
Board Member Pierro stated on their property.
Board Member Cook stated Tractor Supply property and that there is a time limit on the sign, six months.
Rich Williams stated that would be my recommendation.
Board Member Cook stated the permanent signs both have, are both illuminated, no, just the permanent free standing sign.
Rich Williams stated no, both are illuminated, both are done by interior fluorescent lights.
Board Member Cook stated okay.
Rich Williams stated and Maria, I saw you counting, you don’t have to say six months, you could say it has to be moved one week prior to the building opening or one week after the building opens.
Chairman Rogan stated prior to getting a C of O.
Rich Williams stated you can set something (inaudible).
Board Member Montesano stated or immediately after getting the C of O.
Board Member DiSalvo stated maybe they want to put another sign, grand opening.
Board Member Montesano stated well that’s besides the point, I say let them get the C.O., then the signs got to come down.
Chairman Rogan stated once they get the C of O, what regulatory authority do you have to take it down, at least the C of O.
Board Member Montesano stated its part of the plan.
Rich Williams stated we’d have to take them to court.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 32
Board Member Montesano stated oh okay, then we’ll do it prior to.
Chairman Rogan stated I know how you love taking people to court, its.
Board Member Montesano stated let’s look, you gotta help the guys out.
Chairman Rogan stated all right.
Board Member Pierro stated so then 90.
Chairman Rogan stated I have no problem with the signs, if you guys want to react.
Board Member Pierro stated 99.19 square feet, Rich is.
Rich Williams stated is less than 100.
Board Member Pierro stated meets Code and is that the, is that the permanent sign that’s out in the front, not the building mounted.
Rich Williams stated that is the building mounted sign.
Board Member Pierro stated that is the building mounted sign, just wanted to make sure I was clear on that. On the motion.
Chairman Rogan stated sure.
Board Member Pierro stated in the matter of Tractor Supply, 1253 Route 311, I make a motion that the Patterson Planning Board approves the building mounted sign, not to exceed 99.19 square feet.
Chairman Rogan stated do SEQR.
Board Member Pierro stated and the temporary sign to be placed within or on Tractor Supply Company property, not to exceed twenty-four square feet.
Chairman Rogan stated want to do SEQR as part of that or separately.
Board Member Pierro stated I’ll do it separately.
Rich Williams stated I said do you want to get Mike in there some place.
Board Member Montesano stated no, that’s all right.
Board Member DiSalvo stated um.
Board Member Montesano stated we have to get the time limit on the temporary sign.
Board Member DiSalvo stated on the temp, what did we say, prior to obtaining a C.O.
Board Member Montesano stated prior to getting their C.O. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 33
Board Member Pierro stated the sign will expire immediately prior to them obtaining a C.O.
Board Member DiSalvo stated the temporary sign.
Board Member Pierro stated the temporary sign, yes.
Board Member Montesano stated okay.
Board Member Cook stated how about the free standing sign.
Chairman Rogan stated okay, let’s wrap up that motion first, do I have a second on that motion.
Board Member DiSalvo seconded the motion.
Chairman Rogan asks for all in favor:
Board Member Cook - aye Board Member DiSalvo - aye Board Member Montesano - aye Board Member Pierro - aye Chairman Rogan - aye
Motion carries by a vote of 5 to 0.
Chairman Rogan stated can I have a SEQRA Determination.
Board Member Pierro stated in the matter of Tractor Supply Company, I make a motion that the Town of Patterson Planning Board grants a negative determination of significance of SEQR.
Board Member Montesano seconded the motion.
Board Member Pierro stated and that would be for both the temporary sign and the building mounted sign.
Board Member DiSalvo stated second.
Chairman Rogan stated and the free standing sign.
Rich Williams stated and the free standing.
Board Member Pierro stated I’m sorry and the permanent sign.
Chairman Rogan stated Mike seconded.
Chairman Rogan asks for all in favor:
Board Member Cook - aye Board Member DiSalvo - aye Board Member Montesano - aye Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 34
Board Member Pierro - aye Chairman Rogan - aye
Motion carries by a vote of 5 to 0.
Chairman Rogan stated okay if we just real quick, probably procedurally if we can try to remember to do our SEQR Determinations before the determination.
Board Member Pierro stated okay.
Chairman Rogan stated I mean, we are doing them together but let’s try to get better.
Board Member Montesano stated tried that, didn’t work.
Board Member DiSalvo stated no.
Chairman Rogan stated what.
Board Member Cook stated the permanent sign.
Chairman Rogan stated we did all of them.
Board Member Pierro stated we did all of them.
Board Member DiSalvo stated I thought we did the temporary.
Board Member Montesano stated we did all of them.
Board Member Pierro stated I only see one application.
Board Member DiSalvo stated there should be three.
Board Member Pierro stated I don’t see.
Rich Williams stated there are three.
Board Member Montesano stated there are three applications and three statements but they all fall in line.
Board Member DiSalvo stated the 99 square foot one.
Board Member Pierro stated that is the building mounted sign.
Chairman Rogan stated I can’t help but think its been one of those nights already, we are like all over the place.
Board Member Pierro stated does anybody have the application for the free standing sign.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah I got it.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 35
Board Member DiSalvo stated here.
Board Member Montesano stated 99.19 Square feet.
Board Member Pierro stated Rich told me that was the building mounted sign.
Board Member Montesano stated correct, reading the wrong one.
Board Member DiSalvo stated 100 is twenty-five square feet.
Board Member Montesano stated twenty-five square feet.
Board Member Pierro stated the temporary sign was twenty-four square feet.
Board Member DiSalvo stated yeah.
Board Member Pierro stated in the matter of Tractor Supply I make a motion that we approve the.
Board Member Montesano stated the end.
Board Member Pierro stated the permanent building sign, the permanent free standing sign that is based on twenty-five square feet.
Board Member DiSalvo seconded the motion.
Chairman Rogan asks for all in favor:
Board Member Cook - aye Board Member DiSalvo - aye Board Member Montesano - aye Board Member Pierro - aye Chairman Rogan - aye
Motion carries by a vote of 5 to 0.
Board Member Pierro in the matter of Tractor Supply, I make motion that we grant the negative determination of SEQR on the twenty-five square foot permanent mounted sign.
Board Member Montesano seconded the motion.
Chairman Rogan asks for all in favor:
Board Member Cook - aye Board Member DiSalvo - aye Board Member Montesano - aye Board Member Pierro - aye Chairman Rogan - aye
Motion carries by a vote of 5 to 0. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 36
Rich Williams stated Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Rogan stated are we doing a motion to adjourn.
Rich Williams stated yes, I suggest you do.
Chairman Rogan stated I think we probably should.
Board Member Pierro stated we got a couple of other issues to discuss.
Chairman Rogan stated yes I know.
4) PATTERSON VILLAGE CONDOMINIUMS – Sign Application
Chairman Rogan stated Patterson Village Condos, has a sign application.
Rich Williams stated they have a sign application.
Board Member DiSalvo stated its been up there awhile, that one there.
Rich Williams stated that one has been up there awhile, they are looking to replace that. The short of it is, within my memo, is our Code really doesn’t permit that sign but it appears that its been up there an extended period of time, there are no violations, there are no enforcement actions. I can only assume that it’s a previously non-conforming sign that they are looking to replace. They are not making it any bigger, they are not changing any location.
Board Member DiSalvo stated the wood is probably rotted out, its been there for 11 years that I know of, since we’ve lived here.
Board Member Pierro stated the sign is like Cornwall Meadows and Fox Run.
Rich Williams stated the less I know, the happier I am.
Board Member Pierro stated yeah right.
Rich Williams stated can we stop right there.
Board Member Pierro stated okay.
Chairman Rogan stated okay.
Board Member Pierro stated they have them all over the place.
Rich Williams stated thank you.
Board Member Pierro stated so do we have to react to this, do we have to grant an approval for.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 37
Rich Williams stated you don’t have to do anything, no.
Board Member DiSalvo stated all right, so.
Chairman Rogan stated because it’s a pre-existing, non-conforming.
Board Member Pierro stated they are replaceable.
Rich Williams stated but they can’t replace it, if you don’t.
Board Member Pierro stated in the matter of Patterson Village Condominiums.
Chairman Rogan stated SEQRA.
Board Member Pierro stated I make a motion.
Board Member DiSalvo stated SEQRA.
Board Member Pierro stated to grant a negative determination of SEQRA.
Board Member DiSalvo seconded the motion.
Chairman Rogan asks for all in favor:
Board Member Cook - aye Board Member DiSalvo - aye Board Member Montesano - aye Board Member Pierro - aye Chairman Rogan - aye
Motion carries by a vote of 5 to 0.
Board Member Pierro stated in the matter of Patterson Crossing, Patterson Village Condominiums, I make a motion that the Planning Board approves a forty-three square foot sign, as provided in the application.
Rich Williams stated forty-three square foot sign.
Board Member Montesano stated no, read again.
Board Member DiSalvo stated what is it, twenty by twenty.
Board Member Montesano stated its 21.5 square feet.
Rich Williams stated he is reading the application, not the memo that I did. The application is incorrect.
Board Member DiSalvo stated ah.
Chairman Rogan stated they figured the whole area.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 38
Board Member Pierro stated what the hell am I supposed to be reading.
Rich Williams stated my memo that is why I do them.
Board Member Pierro stated oh.
Ted Kozlowski stated Dave, (inaudible).
Rich Williams stated I feel so unused.
Chairman Rogan stated I think Dave, you’ve had enough for tonight, put some of the responsibility on to Charlie.
Board Member Montesano stated its seventy-two long by forty-three high, 21.5 square feet.
Board Member Pierro stated somebody screwed up its 6.3.
The Secretary stated can somebody second the motion.
Chairman Rogan stated the motion hasn’t been corrected.
Board Member Montesano stated somebody second the motion.
Board Member Cook seconded the motion.
Board Member Pierro stated times seventy-two equals forty-three.
Board Member Montesano stated all in favor.
Chairman Rogan asks for all in favor:
Board Member Cook - aye Board Member DiSalvo - aye Board Member Montesano - aye Board Member Pierro - aye Chairman Rogan - aye
Motion carries by a vote of 5 to 0.
Ted Kozlowski stated keep breathing Dave.
Board Member Montesano stated okay, next, you’ll get there.
Chairman Rogan stated all right.
Rich Williams stated it was wrong.
Chairman Rogan stated okay.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 39
Board Member Pierro stated you didn’t tell me it was wrong.
Rich Williams stated that is why I do the memos.
Board Member Pierro stated I haven’t found the memo yet.
Rich Williams stated I go through the applications and check.
Chairman Rogan stated all right.
Board Member Pierro stated I haven’t found the memo yet.
Rich Williams stated I can tell
Chairman Rogan stated three deep quick breathes.
6) STEGER PROPERTY – Amended Site Plan Application
Chairman Rogan stated Steger Property, what is going on with Steger.
Rich Williams stated wait, wait, wait, did anybody, are you approving Patterson Village tonight or are we moving on.
Chairman Rogan stated we did, we voted on it.
Ted Kozlowski stated where have you been.
Rich Williams stated okay.
Chairman Rogan stated you’ll get it in the memo.
Rich Williams stated I guess back with you guys.
Board Member Montesano stated you want some more candy, go ahead, take what you want.
Rich Williams stated Mr. Steger is through the Zoning Board of Appeals at this point, they did deny his application for a use variance.
Chairman Rogan stated okay that was to allow mixed, residential behind the store and the store front.
Rich Williams stated correct.
Chairman Rogan stated so now with that denial, what is he allowed to have, not residential behind the store.
Rich Williams stated right, he would have use it in a commercial fashion and (inaudible) unless something else changes.
Board Member DiSalvo stated they are putting in (inaudible) Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 40
Chairman Rogan stated okay.
Rich Williams stated so the Board, he had submitted an application for the shed that was out at the site, that Board had taken a site walk out there and then you know, decided to put that application on hold to see what the Zoning Board of Appeals did. Now that they have made their decision, I rescheduled him, I did let him know at the ZBA meeting that he needed to come back, he didn’t, I’m not sure he understood it but Mike Ligouri his attorney was there, who did understand it. Essentially, he, to give you some of the history here, he had had a conversation with the Building Department about maybe putting it on another portion of the site, which might be conforming, he took that as that is what I should and so he moved the shed.
Board Member DiSalvo stated I was there that day when they were doing it.
Rich Williams stated yeah, without understanding that he needed to get site plan approval before he did do that.
Chairman Rogan stated so let’s hope that where he moved it too, everybody is agreeable to.
Rich Williams stated okay.
Board Member DiSalvo stated yes and the.
Chairman Rogan stated and that it’s conforming.
Rich Williams stated he did move it where the Planning Board was looking at that one night.
Board Member DiSalvo stated the grass area.
Rich Williams stated he moved it over to the back corner, I don’t know that it still meets Zoning at this point.
Chairman Rogan stated really.
Board Member DiSalvo stated well how far is it off the property line.
Chairman Rogan stated we have to figure that out, don’t we, well.
Board Member Cook stated was there any discussion why he did not move it on to the grassy area.
Rich Williams stated he was never told to move it on to the grassy area. He was told by the Building Department to put.
The Secretary stated do you want me to close it.
Board Member Pierro stated we had discussions about moving it on to the grassy area.
Rich Williams stated he was told by the Building Department that he couldn’t keep it where it was because it was too close to the property line and the building.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 41
Board Member DiSalvo stated to the building.
Rich Williams stated and that he needed to move it else where on the site but not in, but not in that location so he took it upon himself to move it.
Board Member DiSalvo stated so how off is it from the property line on the side, where they just took the big tree down from. Is that where you think it’s in violation.
Rich Williams stated I don’t whether it’s in violation or not. I haven’t looked.
Board Member DiSalvo stated I know the women in the post office are okay where it is.
Board Member Pierro stated they approved it.
Board Member DiSalvo stated well you know.
Board Member Pierro stated they are the ones that have to use it.
Board Member DiSalvo stated they keep a lot of their supplies in there and you know, like Patty said, we are going to go out to Little House on the Prairie on the grass.
Board Member Cook stated it would have been closer for them.
Rich Williams stated but it would have saved the parking out there, right now.
Board Member DiSalvo stated but they were using two spaces before we moved it.
Rich Williams stated they were using two spaces now he’s got the masonry and the shed in a location where he loses three spaces.
Board Member DiSalvo stated he’ll have to rent that bobcat again to push it over.
Rich Williams stated so.
Chairman Rogan stated all right.
Rich Williams stated I’m hoping he comes back in to the Planning Board, I don’t know what you want to do in between now and then.
Board Member DiSalvo stated go out and measure.
Board Member Cook stated well.
Rich Williams stated you want me to go out and see if I can confirm the location.
Board Member DiSalvo stated the exact location.
Chairman Rogan stated that makes sense.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 42
Rich Williams stated okay, I’ll take a look at it.
Board Member DiSalvo stated now that that tree is gone.
Chairman Rogan stated there is nothing else for us to do, I mean, he’s not making any other changes to the site other than the shed.
Board Member DiSalvo stated yeah the tree is gone next door, now you can see how bad shape his roof is in.
Board Member Pierro stated oh god.
Chairman Rogan stated okay.
Board Member Cook stated where it is now, it is more than likely too close to the property line.
Rich Williams stated I don’t know, I haven’t looked, I don’t know.
Chairman Rogan stated all right, we have to determine that.
Board Member Cook stated okay.
Rich Williams stated all right, are you ready to talk about Meadowbrook Farms.
Chairman Rogan stated no, Fox Run Phase II.
8) FOX RUN PHASE II – Continued Discussion
Board Member Pierro stated that was joke on the record.
Rich Williams laughs.
Board Member DiSalvo stated here comes that infrastructure again.
Chairman Rogan stated Fox Run Phase II, continued discussion, its only continued discussion if we had additional information because the last time we talked about this.
Board Member DiSalvo stated we still have infrastructure problems there.
Chairman Rogan stated we were waiting on something.
Rich Williams stated yes.
Board Member Cook stated we were waiting on Mr. Zarecki’s reply to the Dave Raines memo okay and Mr. Zarecki has replied and it says it is regrettable but obviously none of our responsibilities that these conditions exist. The responsibility for compliance to State and Town Code and payment for correction of these conditions lie solely with the present unit owners and management of Fox Run.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 43
Board Member DiSalvo stated this will be another one that will go back and forth.
Chairman Rogan stated it seems that way, doesn’t it.
Board Member DiSalvo stated did you hear what’s going on with some of these homeowners associations, apparently people have to pay common charges, people are falling behind on common charges and the homeowners associations are not putting liens on the units. So, what’s happening is there are people that fall ten eleven, a year behind on homeowners fees could amount to three, four, five thousand dollars and they sell the unit and they stick the homeowners association. So now a lot of them are in REM.
Board Member Pierro stated I had that happen two years ago at Cornwall Meadows.
Board Member DiSalvo stated and that is where it’s happening again.
Board Member Pierro stated one of my clients was buying a property in and somebody winked at me that there were.
Board Member DiSalvo stated (inaudible) that situation.
Board Member Pierro stated there was outstanding, like ten thousand dollars in homeowners fees.
Board Member DiSalvo stated I guess its like, I guess its like an easy way out for them, they know they are going to sell and screw them and.
Board Member Pierro stated yeah but we held money in escrow.
Board Member DiSalvo stated I don’t think they are doing that.
Board Member Pierro stated if you’re sharp enough.
Board Member DiSalvo stated for that unit, for that unit.
Board Member Pierro stated if you’re sharp enough, you find out about it.
Chairman Rogan stated okay.
Board Member Pierro stated and hopefully you have a homeowners association that will agree to the stipulation on it and take a little less than what they are owed.
Chairman Rogan stated so we have a situation where Zarecki’s response is basically look, what exists out there isn’t certainly isn’t our fault and its not the developers faults, it’s the homeowners. We’ve got all the information I guess we’ve asked for now up to this point, right, so we are in a position where we need to balance the information we’ve been given, in terms of the impacts to the community from the expansion of this as multi-family. Because all they are looking for is a recommendation from us to the Town Board, so that we are clear on that, either a recommendation that we are in favor of it, we think its appropriate for the site and that its balanced or that its not appropriate and that the existing current single-family zoning four acre zoning should stand. It is a positive or a negative recommendation.
Rich Williams stated I would ask that you give some thought to your justification. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 44
Chairman Rogan stated oh absolutely.
Rich Williams stated it always helps the Board that you are sending the recommendation to understand why you are making that recommendation.
Board Member Montesano stated well if they have condo units, just for discussion purposes and they were allowed to put up new ones, the ones that they have there and have owned, are completely messed up and they are running into problems. Where if you have a situation where you do put housing in, I’m not saying they are going to sell but if they have private homes in there, you may have a better chance of not having a homeowners catastrophe, in the sense that the association is going to end up becoming bankrupt.
Board Member Pierro stated I disagree with that Mike. I think that single-family homes in that area, would not be sale-able and they would be a hardship and burden on all of the people that reside in that complex, I think.
Chairman Rogan stated you think that the single-family homes would be a burden on the homeowners of the complex.
Board Member Pierro stated because.
Chairman Rogan stated I agreed with you up until that point, I just.
Board Member Pierro stated they are not going to sell, they are not going to receive any income from any common fees that they would get and sure these, even single family homes have to contribute to road maintenance and pool usage and all that. I just don’t see it working, I would be more inclined to go with the condominiumized units, A. there are more of them and they will contribute more dollars into the homeowners association hopefully enabling them to be able to do some of the infrastructure repairs in addition to what the developer has committed to doing. I mean, God knows, real estate in this community is difficult enough as it is to sell right now.
Board Member Cook stated I would think that the, whatever gets built in there, with the condition of current Fox Run Condos would be a hard sell one.
Board Member Pierro stated right.
Board Member Cook stated and.
(Side 1 ended – 9:00 p.m.)
Board Member Cook stated this developer/owner, while he is contributing some things its really not a lot. When I saw that figure of a thousand dollars per unit he was going to, that is a thousand dollars per new unit.
Board Member DiSalvo stated right.
Board Member Cook stated it’s not the existing units.
Chairman Rogan stated right. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 45
Board Member DiSalvo stated it’s a one shot deal.
Chairman Rogan stated right.
Board Member Cook stated yeah.
Board Member DiSalvo stated that’s forty-eight thousand dollars.
Board Member Cook stated so I mean, I think we have to go back and think about things like the traffic and any other impacts because we could ask counsel that, I mean I think the Zarecki here has a point. Its not his, the developers responsibility for what’s there now because he has no stake in it, other than hopefully seeing it improved so he can sell whatever he puts up in the back but I don’t think he can be held accountable for the.
Board Member Pierro stated existing conditions.
Board Member Cook stated disrepair of what is there. It has to be fixed by the homeowners association that is there to whatever extent they can do it.
Chairman Rogan stated it almost begs the question whether or not these projects that are set up like this with the homeowners associations if they were single unit, little multi-family, owner occupied or individually owned and not part of a homeowners association would they be more likely to be maintained, probably. So but when you have a homeowners association that is responsible for certain things and that falls by the wayside you know, nobody takes an action because they feel it is somebody else’s responsibility. It’s difficult.
Board Member Pierro stated the 48,000 dollars, thousand dollars per unit that they will be bringing it, plus the monthly common fees.
Board Member DiSalvo stated twenty-five thousand dollars.
Board Member Pierro stated yeah, that is a nice piece of change, at least it will allow the planners in that homeowners association to start addressing some of there problems step by step. Charlie can tell you, even in Cornwall Meadows is a fairly new unit, they are spending a lot of money in there now that they are saving money on the sewage treatment plant from their homeowners association. They are re-building decks, doing siding, they are really adding dollars into their community which hopefully will make prices go up and values go up to where they used to be.
Board Member DiSalvo stated but these dollars aren’t going to happen until all those units are sold, you’re talking two years, three years and the road is going to get worse.
Board Member Montesano stated and with the market the way it is and plus that, what I’m looking at is.
Board Member DiSalvo stated and if they don’t sell its just, you’re betting on, I would say, let him put his hand in his pocket, advance himself the money to fix up the infrastructure now and then when they sell, then he can reimburse himself (inaudible).
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 46
Board Member Pierro stated you don’t know that if this applicant is going to sell this thing once he gets approval anyway.
Board Member Cook stated can we do that, can we say well you have to pay this money up front.
Board Member DiSalvo stated take it out of your pocket first, you’re talking about the pool he’s going to put fifty thousand dollars into it, that is not even going to cover paving the driveway up there and side walk around the pool and maybe re-do the fence.
Board Member Montesano stated and with that in mind your homeowners association right now, doesn’t have enough money to do major repairs on those buildings. Now you are going to put up forty-eight more units back there, if he sells them and it takes him four years that means the infrastructure on the original is going to go down the toilet.
Board Member DiSalvo stated it will have to be done again.
Board Member Montesano stated because you’re going to end up with more people walking out or selling before they pay those homeowners fees and its going to end up deteriorating to where it was, it is today.
Board Member Pierro stated most importantly I think if they get the sewage treatment system modified with the grant that’s been made available, that would be a tremendous benefit to the.
Board Member Montesano stated have they applied for such a grant.
Rich Williams stated what Dave is referring to I think, is the upgrade to the waste water treatment plant which at this time, essentially, New York City is going to pay to re-build the existing plant.
Board Member DiSalvo stated when is that.
Board Member Montesano stated is that going to include the next forty-eight units.
Rich Williams stated I have, it has the ability to take the waste water.
Board Member Montesano stated okay.
Rich Williams stated from the additional.
Board Member Montesano stated and the City will do that whenever it feels like it.
Rich Williams stated well no, they’ve been working on it, they’ve had a design engineer the design engineer has completed the design they put it out for bid, the bids did not come back suitable to New York City, they put it out to bid a second time, the bids failed a second time.
Chairman Rogan stated well the real question here is Rich, can they build these units, if it was approved, can they build it without that upgrade.
Rich Williams stated I don’t know. I don’t know whether they could or not but that is occurring.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 47
Chairman Rogan stated okay, I go back to one of my biggest issues on this, isn’t the disrepair of the existing units as much as the ability of the roadway, especially Bullet Hole Road to take an additional forty- eight units. We had a long winded contemplation, years worth for Burdick Farms for instance and just because that is not currently on the table doesn’t mean that that, that was a ready to be approved, signed off on project that was thirty four houses, also on the same road. So I’m a little bit concerned about the traffic, that road is, even the entrance where Fox Run intersects with Bullet Hole, when everybody is in and out of there in the morning, it’s a nightmare.
Board Member DiSalvo stated you could actually probably take the traffic survey from Burdick Farms and apply it to here.
Chairman Rogan stated possibly but you have a lot of people now using the Tammany Hall cut through to get over to 84 and I travel that road fairly often and its quite, there is a lot of traffic in and out of Fox Run and to now take that and add forty-eight more units. I’m a little worried, that is really one of my biggest issues on this, I agree with Dave that I never liked the idea of single-family homes having to drive through this to get to them; I have not been able to come to terms with that. I’m a bit split on this but I think the traffic.
Rich Williams stated if I can jump in here at this point.
Chairman Rogan stated please, please do.
Rich Williams stated I’m trying to think of how to say this and say it without, none of you have thought outside the box, none of you have taken a hard look at this property and how potentially it could be used to best suit the Town.
Board Member DiSalvo stated as something else.
Rich Williams stated all of you have accepted the premise that it has to be either has to be single-family homes or condominiums and all of you have accepted the premise that the only access to this property is through Fox Run.
Chairman Rogan stated understood.
Board Member Montesano stated got it, all right.
Rich Williams stated okay.
Chairman Rogan stated and that is probably because that is the application before us.
Board Member Pierro stated we’re not talking about a residential use.
Board Member Montesano stated you’re talking about the fact that.
Rich Williams stated it may be but it doesn’t necessarily have to go through Fox Run.
Board Member Montesano stated you (inaudible).
Chairman Rogan stated right. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 48
Rich Williams stated it potentially has frontage on other roads.
Board Member Pierro stated which other roads.
Rich Williams stated Bullet Hole Road or you can come in through Commerce Drive, if the Board so chooses to extend the Commerce Drive road.
Board Member DiSalvo stated and have them go through there to go to a townhouse development.
Rich Williams stated it doesn’t have to be a townhouse development.
Board Member DiSalvo stated so you’re saying re-zone it commercial or.
Rich Williams stated I’m saying that there are other opportunities for the Board to look at.
Board Member DiSalvo stated yeah, I’ve always thought about that.
Board Member Pierro stated I have never thought about that, I thought that.
Board Member DiSalvo stated Bullet Hole Road is too rough.
Board Member Pierro stated there were prohibitions about access.
Board Member Montesano stated a question on.
Rich Williams stated you would have to grant a waiver to extend Commerce Drive because already its at its limit.
Board Member Pierro stated right.
Board Member DiSalvo stated Commerce is, that’s not even a Town road.
Board Member Montesano stated one question, if we allow this extension to Commerce Drive, is the Town taking over Commerce Drive.
Rich Williams stated well.
Board Member Montesano stated because it is private road if I remember.
Rich Williams stated you’re asking a lot of ifs, all I’m throwing out is the possibility that there are other opportunities that the Board could consider, other than just condominiums or single-family homes.
Board Member Pierro stated right.
Board Member Montesano stated okay.
Board Member DiSalvo stated well we’ve only considered what the property owner/developer has entertained. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 49
Chairman Rogan stated has presented us with.
Rich Williams stated he presented you with a request to re-zone his property, at that point it opened the door and I’m not saying that at this point you should make a recommendation to re-zone it anything other than what it is.
Board Member DiSalvo stated right now.
Rich Williams stated I’m just saying the possibility is out there that you may want to take a look at.
Chairman Rogan stated in other words we could, we could.
Board Member Pierro stated re-zone.
Chairman Rogan stated just what we have basically, we’ve got a lot of struggles with making the decision on this because we see pros and cons with each other. With each of the areas, is there the potential for them looking to another use of the property with because if it accessed Commerce, that would take away my concerns about the traffic.
Board Member Pierro stated traffic.
Chairman Rogan stated going out on, you know.
Board Member Pierro stated depending on what went in there.
Chairman Rogan stated admittedly, this is, depends on what they would be proposing but.
Board Member Pierro stated yeah.
Chairman Rogan stated I would certainly be in favor of that property being utilized say from Commerce Drive for some type of.
Board Member Pierro stated commercial end.
Chairman Rogan stated commercial light industrial.
Board Member DiSalvo stated industrial.
Chairman Rogan stated something that wasn’t going to be a negative impact on the homeowners.
Board Member DiSalvo stated military museum.
Chairman Rogan stated in Fox Run of course.
Board Member DiSalvo stated right.
Chairman Rogan stated because its an adjoining property.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 50
Board Member DiSalvo stated maybe.
Board Member Cook stated but does the back, if you will.
Board Member DiSalvo stated leave a buffer.
Board Member Cook stated of this Fox Run proposal.
Chairman Rogan stated doesn’t.
Board Member Cook stated go out to Commerce Drive.
Chairman Rogan stated it doesn’t sound like it does but it borders property that does.
Rich Williams stated it abuts the piece that is the landfill but there is suitable land to extend the road.
Board Member Cook stated who owns the landfill.
Board Member Pierro stated I don’t think anybody owns it now.
Board Member DiSalvo stated the County.
Rich Williams stated I know who owns the option on it.
Board Member DiSalvo stated I know too.
Board Member Cook stated it’s a different owner, put it that way.
Rich Williams stated it is a different owner.
Chairman Rogan stated okay, let’s kick that, let’s punt that ball out there a little bit.
Board Member Pierro stated yeah but there’s.
Board Member DiSalvo stated but yeah, we should, can we think along these lines.
Board Member Pierro stated then what happens with the Fox Run people.
Board Member DiSalvo stated what happens with them.
Board Member Pierro stated we can do nothing for them.
Chairman Rogan stated that’s true.
Board Member Pierro stated right, they are hanging out to dry.
Chairman Rogan stated that’s true.
Board Member Montesano stated well. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 51
Chairman Rogan stated I’m not in favor of approving a multi-family just for the benefit of helping some people that should may in fact, should be helping themselves.
Board Member DiSalvo stated we’ll never see it.
Chairman Rogan stated I don’t take the stance that we’ve got to approve something to save something that is not being repaired by the people that own them, quite honestly.
Board Member Cook stated this is not Washington D.C.
Board Member DiSalvo stated that’s right, we can do a bail out.
Board Member Montesano stated hey, no, excuse me, Dave, we’ll call up my friend down there in Washington, we’ll get a buy out.
Board Member DiSalvo stated 1-800-Obama and get some money.
Rich Williams stated and I think the whole point that Mr. Raines was trying to make was you have three hundred condominiums out there that, over time have deteriorated and that if you extend that so you now have four hundred condominiums out there.
Chairman Rogan stated right.
Rich Williams stated that again, over time you are going to have four hundred deteriorated condominiums we are going to be wrestling with.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Board Member DiSalvo stated the prop.
Rich Williams stated and perhaps other avenues needed to be looked at to make Fox Run more sustainable over the long haul.
Board Member DiSalvo stated they are just too much (inaudible) too expensive.
Board Member Montesano stated well a recommendation.
Board Member Pierro stated well its fine to look down this road but we also have to take into consideration that we don’t know how extensive that landfill is, how deep it is and how.
Board Member Montesano stated let me put it this way. This is an idea.
Board Member Pierro stated whether or not this is a Federal super fund site.
Board Member DiSalvo stated who says it has to be a human inhabitant.
Board Member Montesano stated the thing I’m looking at is, we are giving them another option that basically they are asking about. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 52
Board Member DiSalvo stated are they.
Board Member Montesano stated and are they; this is something we could throw out.
Rich Williams stated I don’t know that I would want to go throwing it out too hard, especially with this applicant.
Board Member DiSalvo stated no, no, no, they may say we are going to divide it because of that reason, that you would rather see it commercial.
Board Member Montesano stated all right and then we won’t say anything, let them figure it out.
Board Member DiSalvo stated right.
Board Member Cook stated I say review what we have in front of us.
Board Member DiSalvo stated right.
Board Member Montesano stated we’ve been doing that, he’s coming up with something else.
Board Member DiSalvo stated I would, I would think that we are kind of leaning towards a negative recommendation to the Town Board and then.
Rich Williams stated or you could do just what Shawn said you know identify both the positive and negative throw it all back to the Town Board and let them decide.
Board Member DiSalvo stated it sounds like another common driveway on Cornwall Hill.
Chairman Rogan stated you know I’m comfortable with doing just that to the Town Board, saying here look, here is what we see as a benefit in each one and to be honest with you, you know neither one of them look that great.
Board Member DiSalvo stated right, right.
Chairman Rogan stated and here’s why, that is the recommendation you know here is the information, we’ve helped, you know.
Board Member DiSalvo stated so we are leaning more towards (inaudible).
Chairman Rogan stated they could certainly fault us for not coming to a determination but we could, I mean, I don’t know.
Board Member Pierro stated looking at it, there are a couple of different ways we could go here.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Board Member Pierro stated we could build single-family homes, above a bunch of decrepit condominiums; we could build condominiums above decrepit condominiums. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 53
Rich Williams stated I used some of those words and Tim stopped me and said don’t use some of those.
Board Member Pierro stated decrepit.
Chairman Rogan stated I think I used a different word but it was close enough.
Board Member DiSalvo stated in need of repair.
Board Member Pierro stated okay, we could rezone the property to commercial and have it accessed through Commerce Drive.
Chairman Rogan stated through another area, yeah.
Board Member Pierro stated or we can leave it residential and have it accessed through Commerce Drive.
Chairman Rogan stated the problem with that of course would be the mixing of those heavy uses.
Board Member DiSalvo stated no but then they can come back.
Chairman Rogan stated a truly commercial subdivision that now you’re mixing residential.
Board Member Montesano stated well.
Board Member Pierro stated it would be horribly ugly and I don’t think that’s permitted by the Town anyway.
Board Member Cook stated I would think you would have to have the agreement of the guy who owns the property.
Chairman Rogan stated absolutely.
Board Member Montesano stated right because you can not, we can not approve anything that is not on a Town, County, State road, that is a private road.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Board Member Pierro stated we are going to have to accept ownership of Commerce Drive.
Board Member DiSalvo stated (inaudible) the tax break.
Board Member Montesano stated what I am trying to avoid.
Rich Williams stated no, no, you won’t need to accept ownership of Commerce Drive but if he wants to do this additional development for Fox Run, he may need some additional variances, such as a 280-A from the Town Board because he doesn’t have access.
Board Member Pierro stated because he doesn’t have frontage on a Town road.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 54
Rich Williams stated and we would have to take a look and the attorneys are really going to have to weigh in on this. Whether the easement that he has to use the driveway is sufficient to extend the development or not.
Board Member Pierro stated I mean, is there inkling from Caplan that he is willing to review to look at this kind of.
Board Member DiSalvo stated we’re back to that.
Board Member Montesano stated what easement.
Rich Williams stated commercial.
Board Member Pierro stated yeah.
Rich Williams stated I haven’t said one word to Caplan about any of that, nor would I.
Board Member DiSalvo stated I don’t think we can suggest that.
Board Member Montesano stated we are not a Board to suggest things.
Board Member Pierro stated float the boat Rich and duck at the same time.
Board Member Montesano stated all we can do is recommend to the Town Board something.
Rich Williams stated not to Caplan.
Board Member Pierro stated no.
Board Member DiSalvo stated that we are inclined to not see favorable on either way, to condos or town, or private house.
Chairman Rogan stated the only positive that I can honestly come up with for the multi-family is that it fits the property given what is next to it, more so than single family homes because of the access issue and that is what I’m banking it on but.
Board Member Montesano stated yeah but.
Board Member DiSalvo stated but don’t you feel its our.
Chairman Rogan stated every other issue its, every other issue I don’t like the idea of multi-family being extended in there and more units just because of the impacts, the, you know, I believe that the infrastructure can support it in terms of water and sewage that’s not, I’m not in doubt on that. I do agree with what Rich said that you know, twenty years, twenty-five years from now we may in fact have an additional whatever we approve now, an additional you know, number of units that are all now in disrepair. I hope that’s not the case, I hope that ones that are there, you know think back to Field and Forest, a little different situation because we didn’t have a homeowners association. We had a private owner but they went in and they invested heavily in the existing facility not only to bring them up to a better marketability but also you know, they admitted there were problems out there and they wanted them to match what they were building Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 55 new, they wanted to make the whole place better. So they invested on their own accord, we didn’t require that, we didn’t come in and say we won’t approve you to build these new facilities without doing some, a lot of work to the other ones, that was part of their master plan.
Board Member Montesano stated but the Building Inspector came in and told them that since it was hazardous for people to walk down the stair case that was when you stepped on it, fell away.
Board Member DiSalvo stated they agreed to re-face them and everything.
Chairman Rogan stated well, there were issues like that, absolutely.
Board Member DiSalvo stated make them look like the newer section, once everything was done.
Chairman Rogan stated right, Carl you look like you’re biting at bit over there.
Carl Lodes stated is this, just for my understanding because I am not familiar with the project, so its property, how is it zoned. So, it’s a request to re-zone property which is then, you have to make a recommendation to the Town Board.
Chairman Rogan stated correct, it was.
Rich Williams stated to give you just a little bit of history on this, in 1973 it was zoned to allow multi- family housing, 1974 to 76, the Town re-zoned it to permit only single-family residence on it.
Board Member DiSalvo stated on the empty lot.
Rich Williams stated right, in 1986, it was all one big piece at that point, in 1986 another individual bought it, sold the Garden Apartments off for condominiums to fund subdividing the property. And then got the Planning Board to acknowledge that he had the right to build X number of houses, condominiums on the property, even though it had been re-zoned three years or ten years before single-family residences, okay.
Carl Lodes stated right.
Rich Williams stated 1990 he comes back, Planning Board says, we’re not so sure, we’ll take you through SEQR and take a look at it. 2005 he comes back in here and runs into this big pain in the butt who says vested rights, you’ve got to be kidding me.
Carl Lodes stated that is the Article 78.
Chairman Rogan stated yes, that is the one we heard about at our legal recent training, quoted us.
Rich Williams stated yeah, yes.
Carl Lodes stated so now he is requesting to re-zone the property.
Chairman Rogan stated correct.
Carl Lodes stated you just have to make a recommendation.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 56
Rich Williams stated right.
Chairman Rogan stated that’s it.
Rich Williams stated and in 2003 it was zoned R-4, from R-40 to R-4. So he is looking to have it re-zoned back to allow multi-family.
Carl Lodes stated and you have to make a recommendation.
Chairman Rogan stated that’s it.
Board Member Pierro stated now did you.
Carl Lodes stated (inaudible).
Board Member Pierro stated did we win that litigation.
Chairman Rogan stated absolutely.
Rich Williams stated oh yeah.
Carl Lodes stated a positive or negative.
Board Member Pierro stated on what grounds.
Carl Lodes stated (inaudible – too many speaking at one time).
Rich Williams stated on a lot of different grounds.
Carl Lodes stated if you have a positive vote (inaudible).
Chairman Rogan stated right, right.
Rich Williams stated but the big on was, too much time had gone by.
Board Member DiSalvo stated this is another, Ginsburg.
Rich Williams stated no.
Board Member Pierro stated Ron Caplan.
Board Member Cook stated why don’t we do like we did.
Board Member DiSalvo stated who.
Board Member Pierro stated Caplan.
Board Member Cook stated with the.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 57
Rich Williams stated RC, RC Enterprises.
Board Member Cook stated Martins Subdivision, first time around, right, the 280-A business, sent the Board the pros and the cons.
Board Member DiSalvo stated (inaudible).
Board Member Cook stated we asked the Town Planner to develop that little chart for this application and we take the vote, whose in favor, whose a positive, negative, you know.
Rich Williams stated I would ask to do it just a little bit differently if at next weeks meeting, if all the Board Members could come in with what you think are the pros and the cons and I will collect them all and summarize them in a memo and give it back to you for the following meeting. You can review it, you can edit it and you can sent that up to the Town Board as you recommendation, if you so choose.
Chairman Rogan stated well I think we are at the point, we’ve hit the point where we have collected as much information as we are going to collect, you know. Zarecki has kind of said to us, what more do you people want, I’ve given to everything you’ve asked for, you know make a decision on this one way or the other.
Board Member Cook stated yeah and I think we should, you know I don’t think we should just send it to the Town Board.
Chairman Rogan stated I agree.
Board Member Cook stated without any, you know, we should say, hey look, this is X vote it’s a positive recommendation or not.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Rich Williams stated I just want to throw one more thing out here, just to correct something you said, that they have access to sewer and water. We have this whole big issue with the water that is still sitting out where there that they had access to the existing water system, the existing water system except for the distribution lines has been abandoned. The Town created a district that encompasses just three hundred and three for the water treatment plant that is now sized for the three hundred and three.
Chairman Rogan stated oh okay.
Rich Williams stated we didn’t size it for anything else.
Chairman Rogan stated oh okay.
Board Member Pierro stated so that has to be updated.
Board Member Cook stated that’s what we need, that kind of input you have.
Rich Williams stated Zarecki says you should be fine, I’m not convinced at all.
Board Member DiSalvo stated no, you’re talking about two or three bedroom units. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 58
Chairman Rogan stated all right, I think we’ve beat this horse.
9) PATTERSON CROSSING RETAIL CENTER – Continued Review
Chairman Rogan stated Patterson Crossing Retail Center, continued review. What we have on this, that I think we should spend just a moment on we’ve been given an opportunity here that, as everyone knows they went to the Zoning Board with the recommendation that we had given the Zoning Board a positive recommendation for the architectural renderings that were presented to us. Zoning Board felt that there was, that they should at least take another look at it, make sure, see if they can reduce the amount of variances because the variances were quite significant as we all remember. And so they came back or they are coming back with modified drawings which we have copies of, what I think would be helpful is if we compare them to what we gave the positive recommendation on. Dave and I had previously done that, I don’t know if anybody else had the chance but what I found looking at them was, in a lot cases they lowered some of the towers or some of the elements a few feet but then they removed some of the, flag poles if you will, or copulas with the flag poles which, if I’m understanding this correctly, aren’t used in the calculation for height anyway so I don’t whether they took them off to give more of the appearance of not being so tall because each one of these copulas could have, here they show kind of these nice little flag.
Board Member Montesano stated yeah.
Chairman Rogan stated you know, that is not figured in on the height, so I don’t know whether that was just kind of a something they did to, you know if we compare each profile, what we had originally looked at versus what now they are showing us.
Board Member DiSalvo stated yeah, we could.
Chairman Rogan stated for instance, we could look at one part here, compare here the roof line and what we have, what we originally liked to what they showing, they don’t look all, in my opinion, that significantly different.
Board Member Pierro stated you have the color piece.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah, right here.
Board Member DiSalvo stated its wider than taller.
Chairman Rogan stated you want to open it right up and lay it like.
Board Member Pierro stated yeah.
Board Member DiSalvo stated is this corrugated or is this still like a roofing shingle.
Rich Williams stated Shawn.
Chairman Rogan stated yes.
Rich Williams stated there is no reason for Carl. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 59
Chairman Rogan stated no, absolutely.
Carl Lodes stated I’m not part of this, so.
Chairman Rogan stated thanks for your time.
Carl Lodes stated good night everybody.
Board Member Pierro stated good night.
Chairman Rogan stated trying to keep you here longer than you probably needed to be.
Board Member DiSalvo stated do we want (inaudible).
Board Member Montesano stated all right this piece is gone.
Chairman Rogan stated but they can add that back in because its not used.
Board Member Pierro stated its not an architectural.
Board Member Montesano stated you have a small structure here.
Board Member DiSalvo stated they thought it was too busy.
Chairman Rogan stated that is that copula that is on that back gable, so here it looks like they lowered this gable down a little bit.
Board Member DiSalvo stated it was on there anyway.
Chairman Rogan stated this gable that comes out at you, breaks the roof line there now.
Board Member Pierro stated let me see, can I see the color one, I can’t see that far.
Chairman Rogan stated why don’t you put one right over the top of the other one.
Board Member Pierro stated no I can see.
Board Member Cook stated why don’t you come over here.
Board Member Pierro stated okay, did I take this away from you Charles.
Chairman Rogan stated Charles is insulted.
Board Member DiSalvo stated why don’t you come over here.
Board Member Pierro stated I’m sorry Charles, I didn’t see you move, I thought I was moving that for you.
Board Member Montesano stated try it again. This, they lowered this roof line. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 60
Chairman Rogan stated they dropped it down in a section.
Board Member Montesano stated yes.
Chairman Rogan stated it’s the same height up here because of those windows, so they dropped it down.
Board Member Montesano stated so they dropped this section of windows.
Chairman Rogan stated so that drops this tower down, it drops both these towers down a hair.
Board Member Montesano stated yes.
Rich Williams stated try not to let it go to your head.
The Secretary stated I’ll try not to, thanks.
Chairman Rogan stated too meet more with the roof line.
Board Member Montesano stated okay.
Chairman Rogan stated this tower.
Board Member Montesano stated this, what did we do.
Board Member Cook stated added this.
Board Member Montesano stated this is no longer here or is that the back end of something else but here its in that picture and here its not. So you don’t, this is probably this is here, so this whole section is gone.
Chairman Rogan stated they didn’t actually change the footprint, they just changed the elevations, right.
Board Member Cook stated this is newer plan, right.
Board Member Montesano stated this is the new plan, this is the old one.
Board Member Cook stated okay.
Rich Williams stated as far as I know.
The Secretary stated Shawn can you pass the (inaudible – too many speaking).
Rich Williams stated which would (inaudible – too many speaking).
Board Member Montesano stated they added something here.
Chairman Rogan stated it looks like on this profile Rich, the new one.
Board Member Montesano stated they changed the location. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 61
Chairman Rogan stated on the profile they are showing additional structures coming out away, see this whole section here, looks like its been added, here, its not on this one.
Board Member DiSalvo stated the colors really.
Board Member Pierro stated I think its here.
Chairman Rogan stated no, that’s this one.
Rich Williams stated no, its not.
Board Member Montesano stated this angle right here.
Rich Williams stated that’s, I don’t know what that is.
Board Member Montesano stated here they show this in this picture and there is nothing here, now I don’t know if that is this thing on the corner.
Chairman Rogan stated well take a look at the profile here. Number two, is as if you are looking at the building from the end, so here you have to envision looking at the building if you were out here looking into the profile.
Board Member Montesano stated now on this one, this is two.
Chairman Rogan stated it’s the same view, its looking from the end.
Board Member Montesano stated from the end.
Chairman Rogan stated so yes, because they lowered number, so this feature is this corner because you are looking past this, normally it would have been high. So because they lowered it down, it comes out of view, is what I’m guessing.
Board Member DiSalvo stated and this would require them not getting variances.
Chairman Rogan stated no, they still have tons of variances.
Board Member Montesano stated now this.
Board Member DiSalvo stated the height, not as big a height.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah, its just makes it a little smaller.
Board Member Montesano stated this.
Rich Williams stated understand the maximum height variance is this and that’s not changing.
Board Member Montesano stated all right, this has been cut, if this four and this is four that means this particular building has now lost a section here. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 62
Chairman Rogan stated I mean, in short, to summarize it, they took a lot of their towers and they pulled them down and changed a little bit of the roof lines to make some of the variances they were requesting less, which I think the Zoning Board is just doing their due diligence because they have to they are charged with seeing can we minimize it, we have a shed close to a property line, can you make it less of a variance, so.
Board Member Montesano stated well the thing here is, this is unique situation.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Board Member Montesano stated we are not going to have, hopefully, any more of these type things coming because we don’t have the room, unless they change.
Chairman Rogan stated right.
Board Member Montesano stated they change, the only other side, the other side of [Interstate] 84 you can’t build on.
Rich Williams stated you are not going to have something like this anywhere over there again, this is it.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Board Member DiSalvo stated this is unique.
Chairman Rogan stated I mean, I’ll throw it out there that I personally still like the original we approved better. I’m willing to certainly send a positive recommendation on this and stating that positive recommendation that we like the original one better.
Board Member Montesano stated yeah, I’ll go with that.
Chairman Rogan stated that we’re, you know agreeable to it.
Board Member DiSalvo stated so how much is the.
Chairman Rogan stated but that we liked the architectural, the pleasing elements of the, you know.
Board Member Montesano stated original.
Rich Williams stated and if I could just, again, please when you make these recommendations you know give specific reasons why, so that I can take that and translate it over instead of me saying the Planning Board likes the way it looks.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Board Member DiSalvo stated how much of a height difference are we talking about here.
Chairman Rogan sated there are so many different, you’d have to take each tower because each tower, each element has. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 63
Board Member DiSalvo stated there is a significant, each element, is there a significant drop in the variance footage or is it like a foot.
Chairman Rogan stated significant might be five feet or ten feet.
Rich Williams stated I haven’t seen it.
Chairman Rogan stated you know, I think it’s their honest attempt to change the structure to meet what the Zoning Board.
Board Member DiSalvo stated I think this looks to busy, its here, then its here, then its back up here, and it’s down again.
Board Member Montesano stated I mean, when you come up to that hill and you are going to look into this.
Chairman Rogan stated let’s look at another, pick another page, we can react to looking at another view.
Board Member Montesano stated SW-2.
Chairman Rogan stated okay and the fronts are probably better than the backs because the, you know, the back of the building is pretty standard but okay, so we are looking here.
Board Member Montesano stated so they eliminated this thing, they eliminated this.
Chairman Rogan stated the dormers, see the shed dormers off the side of the building.
Board Member Montesano stated yeah, the dormers are gone.
Chairman Rogan stated they pulled that way down.
Board Member Montesano stated this has been chopped down.
Chairman Rogan stated I still like the tall one better.
Board Member DiSalvo stated yeah.
Board Member Montesano stated yeah.
Chairman Rogan stated it gives more of, what is this style, what would you call the style of this architectural.
Board Member DiSalvo stated (inaudible).
Rich Williams stated they were shooting for an early American barn type.
Chairman Rogan stated you get more of that with the original plan it seems like it gives you more contrast.
Board Member Montesano stated yeah. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 64
Chairman Rogan stated between the.
Board Member Montesano stated they chopped this one out, they chopped this out.
Board Member DiSalvo stated so this is all straight (inaudible).
Board Member Montesano stated yeah.
Rich Williams stated well you gotta understand the early American style was a very plain style, there wasn’t a lot of ornate to it and there wasn’t a lot of variation to it. With the revised plan, it’s much busier.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Board Member DiSalvo stated that is why I just said.
Board Member Montesano stated yeah.
Rich Williams stated and it takes away from trying to reach that early American style.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah, if I had my choice I would still want the original one.
Board Member Montesano stated I think, I think the original looks more pleasant no matter how you look at it, the reason, it looks nice and it doesn’t look as busy and as hectic as chopping sections out and moving them up here.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Board Member Montesano stated and the I don’t know, I like these little towers up there, that is the way the bourbons used to be with that tower up there, you used to be able to sit up there and watch everything going on around the area, it was beautiful.
Rich Williams stated crows nest (inaudible).
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Board Member DiSalvo stated can we make another recommendation back to the Zoning Board that we recommend the first one again.
Chairman Rogan stated we can, I mean, there’s nothing.
Board Member Montesano stated nothing wrong with that.
Board Member Cook stated then the architect is going to come back in right, next week.
Chairman Rogan stated they are going to.
Board Member Cook stated to talk to us.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 65
Rich Williams stated I don’t know that the architect is coming back in next week.
Board Member DiSalvo stated that gentleman.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah, probably not the architect, the engineer probably will.
Board Member Cook stated or the engineer, would it be best to have the engineer come back with the colored drawings of this, the boards and just go through one, what the reduction is, two, any rational that he can lean from the Zoning Board.
Board Member Pierro stated I think we out to give him a heads up before the meeting to have him put those numbers together because this could be, that could be time consuming, going over the plan, I don’t, I’d rather have them.
Rich Williams stated we probably already have them here with the Zoning Board application.
Board Member Pierro stated oh okay, then fine.
Rich Williams stated I can check on that easy enough.
Board Member Pierro stated then if you have them, then you can get them to use, so we can do a comparison.
Board Member DiSalvo stated we only get once chance at this guys, with this project, you know.
Board Member Montesano stated and at the rate we’re going, the rumors are flying.
Chairman Rogan stated well.
Board Member Montesano stated what kind of business is this.
Chairman Rogan stated here is the thing too at least the Zoning Board, if, when they make a decision on this, if we’ve been presented with an option and we still choose that we really for architectural reasons, we still like the original plan, gives them a little bit more backing to make that decision.
Rich Williams stated that makes their decision un-substantive.
Chairman Rogan stated right, its not just you know because remember Zoning Board is charged with impacts of these things. I mean we don’t really know that these towers, that some of these towers that they are not going to be seen from twelve blocks away, I mean some of it will, obviously from the [Interstate] 84 side but up from Longfellow, let’s say.
Rich Williams stated let’s be clear, that was all addressed in the environmental impact statement.
Chairman Rogan stated no I realize but.
Board Member Pierro stated they weren’t very exposed from the driveway corridor.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 66
Rich Williams stated I don’t know if you picked up on it but he was looking at this design when he was doing the visual analysis.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah I must be mistaken, I must not have looked at it.
Rich Williams stated in the environmental impact statement,
Chairman Rogan stated I must not have picked up that. I knew that we did general heights of buildings but in terms of the way they are, you know but anyway so maybe we should look to next week to do some kind of recommendation back to Zoning Board because they are going to be charged with this. The problem is, let’s say for the sake of argument, Zoning Board says no, we don’t like the one we gave the recommendation on, we like the new plan, they approve it they say okay, you got these variances and we say, we don’t like, we are spinning everybody’s wheels here. It’s a very frustrating process, imagine the applicant, how they must feel.
Board Member DiSalvo stated yeah.
Board Member Montesano stated well, since we have an architectural review procedure, if they refuse to do that, can we waive that or that’s out of bailiwick.
Board Member Cook stated I think the ZBA trumps.
Chairman Rogan stated we have to work within the confines of what we’ve been given, right.
Board Member Pierro stated yeah, maybe at the end of next meeting we can go over this with the engineer if they are available with the record Rich has from Zoning and go over.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Board Member Pierro stated point by point structure by structure what the difference in the variance is.
Chairman Rogan stated okay.
Board Member Pierro stated so that we can make a recommendation.
Rich Williams stated are you looking for me to give Paul Camarda a heads up that you’re going to be talking about the architecture at the next meeting.
Board Member Pierro stated yeah.
Board Member DiSalvo stated yeah.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah, I mean that, I know we have other review items on it but that is one of the biggest issues before us right now is getting this part of it done.
Board Member Cook stated don’t we want to have, who is that Insite.
Rich Williams stated he’s not doing the architecture, he is the site engineer.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 67
Chairman Rogan stated Insite is engineering.
Board Member Pierro stated Insite Engineers.
Board Member DiSalvo stated it was that other gentleman, with the Russian woman.
Board Member Pierro stated they are site engineers.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Rich Williams stated and that is what I’m saying, Insite will be here, I don’t know if the architect will be here.
Chairman Rogan stated Insite will be here for the engineering review.
Rich Williams stated yeah.
Chairman Rogan stated do we have anything specific to the engineering review that you want to give us a heads up on.
Rich Williams stated I have no had a chance to look at it.
Chairman Rogan stated all right.
Rich Williams stated I do have a question though, you know the way we’ve been handling the engineering reviews are essentially we’ve had Stantec, excuse me, Stantec going through the plans, I’m going through the plans. I’m doing a memo but for the most part the engineer has just been doing a mark up and sitting down with the applicant and going through the mark ups. Do you want Gene to be at the meeting for just Patterson Crossing or do you want to keep going that way.
Board Member Montesano stated well they’ve talked to Gene, right, according to the Town Engineer’s comments, which is on Insite’s memo.
Rich Williams stated right, what I’m saying is we’ve been doing it Gene to Insite directly, without doing review memos, without really including the Board, the only review memos you’re getting are from me.
Board Member Montesano stated okay, consensus, he’s the engineer, right now, Gene is.
Board Member DiSalvo stated Gene.
Board Member Montesano stated Gene has been communicating with Insite, now should we be put in, so we can understand what both of them are talking about or.
Chairman Rogan stated I honestly don’t really care about the engineer lingo, I want to know if there is an issue that we have to make a decision on that changes the, like I don’t care if they are talking about the inverts of stormwater and I mean, that’s not.
Rich Williams stated and that I will bring back to you.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 68
Chairman Rogan stated right.
Board Member Montesano stated okay.
Chairman Rogan stated but in fairness, we need to know about issues that relate to decision we make, right.
Board Member Montesano stated well this is it, if we are going to question it and Gene is there, at least if we have a question for him, we could also ask him, well what is a professional opinion that thing.
Chairman Rogan stated no, no, I’m not saying he shouldn’t be there for those reasons.
Board Member Montesano stated no, no, I’m just saying it, I hate like hell, they’re getting paid for it, because it costs us money.
Board Member Pierro stated big money.
Board Member Montesano stated but the thing would be, would it be beneficial for the expense to have another input that can explain to us, even what the other guy is talking about while we’re sitting there.
Board Member Pierro stated I don’t think there is anything that is going to be that pressing that we can’t reach out to Gene in an e-mail and get a response for the following week.
Board Member Montesano stated I feel more comfortable with him here because he’s our engineer. If I have a question that may come up, its like having the attorney here, its nice to have him here if something comes up. Either that or we have to hold it off its that, a pressable point.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah, well we are not making any decision on any of the engineering related.
Board Member DiSalvo stated I’m more concerned with the architect right now.
Board Member Montesano stated well he’s going to be here.
Chairman Rogan stated (inaudible).
Board Member DiSalvo stated this is a pressing issue, people are getting hate mail and.
Board Member Montesano stated then get him in here, as long as we know he’s going to come here.
Chairman Rogan stated can we request that the Town’s appointed architectural professional be present, oh shit, we don’t have one.
Rich Williams laughs.
Chairman Rogan stated I keep saying that we wish we did.
Ted Kozlowski stated (inaudible).
Chairman Rogan stated I think within the firm, within the firm we hire.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 69
Board Member DiSalvo stated another layer of, I think if the gentleman comes again with that Russian woman that spoke last time, we’ll let him explain it.
Board Member Montesano stated (inaudible – not English).
Chairman Rogan stated yeah, okay.
10) OTHER BUSINESS
Chairman Rogan stated we have under Other Business, the sign code, Town Attorney discussion, we already had, let’s jump to Green Chimneys real quick.
c. Green Chimneys
Chairman Rogan stated we had asked Theresa to give us something in writing, or on paper as to schematic of what this thing is going to look like, this generator building.
Board Member Pierro stated Rich was right, it’s a three sided building with a fence around it.
Board Member DiSalvo stated is it a fence or is it poly carbonate panels, I can’t see what it looks like, it may have a shine to it.
Board Member Montesano stated not even in color, send it back.
Board Member DiSalvo stated is that just like planks, like one by fours or something one by threes.
Chairman Rogan stated slats like a fence.
Board Member Pierro stated yeah.
Rich Williams stated yeah consider it like a fence.
Board Member DiSalvo stated a picket fence and that will be how high. Is it going to be over six feet.
Rich Williams stated they are talking about like eight feet.
Board Member DiSalvo stated so then they are going to need a variance for that.
Board Member Pierro stated oh god.
Rich Williams stated well here we get into this hybrid.
Board Member DiSalvo stated or technically is it part of the structure.
Rich Williams stated is it a building or is it a fence.
Chairman Rogan stated who knows.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 70
Board Member DiSalvo stated we can call it vented panels, why don’t they go all the way up and then it is part of building with the planks, right, they already look like they are cutting off a foot there, two feet.
Rich Williams stated why not make it real walls.
Board Member DiSalvo stated the exhaust.
Chairman Rogan stated you seen this, what do you think, look through a few of them.
Rich Williams stated that in and of itself isn’t an answer because we have a generator at the waste water treatment plant, entirely enclosed within the building.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Board Member DiSalvo stated and you feel comfortable with that.
Board Member Pierro stated yeah but its got a vent going through the roof, its got an exhaust going through the roof, doesn’t it.
Rich Williams stated the side of the building.
Board Member Pierro stated side of the building.
Rich Williams stated absolutely.
Board Member Montesano stated there are generators sitting up by the phone company up where Patterson Crossing is and they are outside the fence.
Board Member Pierro stated it probably has enough intake.
Board Member DiSalvo stated (inaudible – too many speaking) go see what’s in there, you know.
Rich Williams stated yeah.
Board Member Montesano stated all you have to do is get a big truck and hook it up and drive away.
Board Member Pierro stated I’ve never heard that when we’ve had power outages.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Board Member Pierro stated the generator.
Rich Williams stated no, it’s in the building.
Board Member Pierro stated I’ve never heard it going off.
Board Member Cook stated is this options.
Rich Williams stated no, have you ever heard the other one, we’ve got two of them over there. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 71
Board Member Pierro stated no.
Rich Williams stated we’ve got one for the water supply too.
Board Member Montesano stated only on Thursday around twelve o’clock, I hear it.
Board Member DiSalvo stated I kind of agree with Rich, why don’t we just make them walls.
Chairman Rogan stated didn’t they need the, you mean solid walls, didn’t they need to slats for the air or something like that, they were talking about for circulation.
Rich Williams stated they were talking about having to make the building much bigger, what they are doing right now is just keeping it real tight to generator.
Chairman Rogan stated oh, right, right. I hate to say it but totally not crazy about this design.
Board Member DiSalvo stated no.
Rich Williams stated you don’t have to make a decision tonight.
Chairman Rogan stated no, I realize, I’m just stating that.
Board Member Montesano stated I don’t like the idea that those kids have access to crawling in that building.
Board Member Cook stated is this four different variations.
Chairman Rogan stated well right now a lot of their generators are all just sitting out (inaudible).
Rich Williams stated (inaudible) I haven’t looked that closely at them.
Board Member Pierro stated there are a couple of different views, one side, see this is the highest, the higher point of the.
Board Member Montesano stated I remember when they first started and the Building Inspector walked out there when (inaudible).
Board Member Pierro stated you’re looking at the reverse side.
Board Member Montesano stated none of them started, they were seized up.
Chairman Rogan stated really.
Board Member Montesano stated there was no oil in them.
Board Member Pierro stated the flat roof.
Board Member DiSalvo stated I think we should go ahead and make it a building. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 72
Chairman Rogan stated I think we’ve fried our brains for night.
Rich Williams stated what are you doing with the sign code.
Chairman Rogan stated you want to ask about that the way tonight went.
Board Member DiSalvo stated all right.
Board Member Montesano stated it should be a building, I’ll go along with that.
Board Member Pierro stated no, I’ve been writing notes, I haven’t gotten further along on it.
Rich Williams stated well I understand this.
Chairman Rogan stated we have to do something tonight.
Rich Williams stated you ladies and gentlemen understand why we are doing this.
Board Member DiSalvo stated what are we doing.
Rich Williams stated the sign code and there is some need to move this thing along.
Board Member Pierro stated sense of urgency you’re saying.
Rich Williams stated there is some sense of urgency.
Board Member DiSalvo stated let’s get through the.
Board Member Pierro stated why is that.
Board Member DiSalvo stated Meadowbrook and Fox Run and then we can work on signs, right.
Board Member Pierro stated election time.
Board Member Montesano stated I don’t have to get through Meadowbrook.
Board Member DiSalvo stated just do this.
Board Member Montesano stated I don’t have to get involved with this abuse. I want you to prolong it, I need the rest.
Board Member DiSalvo stated too much reading right now.
Chairman Rogan stated right.
Board Member Pierro stated can’t we approve a sign for Patterson Crossing in its own right, or do we have to have that regional code in the books.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 73
Rich Williams stated where it is right now, they are allowed twenty-five square feet, they are looking for three hundred and fifty plus. Board Member Pierro stated right, okay.
Rich Williams stated it’s a monumental variance.
Board Member Pierro stated okay.
Rich Williams stated and they are looking not to have to do another monumental variance.
Board Member Pierro stated okay.
Board Member DiSalvo stated I would still like to compare it to the sign at the highways, how big would that be as compared to the Patterson Crossing sign.
Chairman Rogan stated Ted, you’ve been here and you’ve been very quiet tonight other than your giggling, want to say anything.
Rich Williams stated the point is our code doesn’t let him get any where near either one of them.
The Secretary stated he had an outburst.
Rich Williams stated and what we are trying to do is come up with a reasonable standard that at least if they want to go bigger.
Board Member DiSalvo stated right but what if, maybe we don’t want it bigger then, right.
Rich Williams stated well that is what I’m saying and I’ve tried to come up with a reasonable standard talking with the Board about what you think is appropriate looking at the Highlands sign, that is what I’ve done in the Code. Is try to come up with a reasonable standard for the Town, not for them, they may still need to go for a variance but at least.
Chairman Rogan stated it wouldn’t be as great.
Board Member DiSalvo stated right.
Rich Williams stated yeah.
Board Member Montesano stated now, one question.
Board Member DiSalvo stated look at Loews, the movie theater sign (inaudible).
Board Member Montesano stated the signs that we are talking about are on the buildings.
Board Member DiSalvo stated no.
Rich Williams stated we’re talking about everything.
Board Member DiSalvo stated everything. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 74
Chairman Rogan stated everything.
Board Member Montesano stated what I’m looking at is, if they go to, a certain other town and get a variance of some kind, they have to get a variance there because if they put a sign at the entrance way, its not in Patterson.
Rich Williams stated correct, that is their problem but they are looking at having two free standing signs, one in Patterson and one in Kent.
Board Member Pierro stated at least if they get the one in Patterson.
Board Member DiSalvo stated they won’t have to put the one Kent up for awhile.
Board Member Pierro stated right, right or at all.
Chairman Rogan stated motion to adjourn.
Board Member Pierro stated I heard that Mr. Chairman.
Board Member Montesano stated second.
Chairman Rogan stated Charlie, what do you got, no.
Board Member Montesano stated Charlie’s got a yellow pen.
Board Member DiSalvo stated we’ve got a couple of these little memos here.
Rich Williams stated Ted.
Chairman Rogan stated Ted I asked you if you had anything.
Ted Kozlowski stated I wanted to wait.
Chairman Rogan stated you have to jump in, in this group.
Ted Kozlowski stated have you guys gone to Mayfield’s site at all.
Chairman Rogan stated drove by it, yeah.
Board Member DiSalvo stated I drove by, it looks like its done.
Chairman Rogan stated yup.
Board Member Montesano stated he would like to be done.
Board Member Cook stated have you had a response to your letter.
Ted Kozlowski stated yes and no. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 75
Board Member Montesano stated oh.
Ted Kozlowski stated just to fill you in as quick as possible, we met Mr. Mayfield, we meaning Rich Williams, myself and the Town Supervisor.
Board Member DiSalvo stated (inaudible).
Ted Kozlowski stated as long as Winston Blyfield, the engineer, we discussed at length the situation, Mr. Mayfield agreed to take the road out and restore the site, still come in for a permit to you guys to be within the buffer for a garage and parking area. I didn’t have a problem with it because quite honestly, his entire home, everything is in the buffer.
Board Member Pierro stated in the buffer.
Ted Kozlowski stated so he’s got, it is, what it is but I told him at the meeting that he was to do nothing other than erosion controls or whatever until he came before the Board with a permit application.
Board Member Montesano stated so now the garage is up.
Board Member DiSalvo stated no.
Ted Kozlowski stated and he had until May 19th, to get it into your hands. May 19th came and went, at the same time, he started dismantling the road, withdrawing but expanding the parking area within the buffer.
Chairman Rogan stated got to do something with that material.
Ted Kozlowski stated I made phone calls, the problem was that the engineer Mr. Blyfield, who is a very good guy and I trust, was preparing the application but he was very adamant that he get a retainer or some sort of security from Mr. Mayfield.
Board Member Pierro stated Christ.
Ted Kozlowski stated that did not happen until today.
Board Member DiSalvo stated at least it happened.
Ted Kozlowski stated I was promised by Mr. Blyfield and I trust him that he will have the application in Richie’s hands tomorrow.
Board Member DiSalvo stated so why did he put the road in, to go where.
Ted Kozlowski stated oh, its hard to describe, I really would rather you guys get a taste of Mr. Mayfield yourselves.
Chairman Rogan stated we’re going to go take a look anyway.
Board Member DiSalvo stated I’ve already had a taste of him. Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 76
Ted Kozlowski stated I have my own private thoughts as to why he was doing this, the official reason was he wanted to put a little shed back there.
Board Member DiSalvo stated do you think that is where he wanted to put the garage originally.
Ted Kozlowski stated Maria, I don’t know why he would invest all that time and money to put a road to put a ten by ten garage at the end of it.
Board Member Montesano stated oh, no, no, you misunderstood, its not ten by ten, it’s a thousand by a thousand.
Ted Kozlowski stated I just didn’t, I don’t know but I’m not going to pass judgment, I am going to let the Board do that.
Board Member DiSalvo stated so (inaudible).
Board Member Montesano stated okay.
Ted Kozlowski stated but did I hit him with the violation, no because we are making progress and if I go to court, the judge is going to say, he’s making progress, let him go.
Chairman Rogan stated right, great.
Ted Kozlowski stated so let’s see if the application comes in tomorrow.
Rich Williams stated so now I get the application tomorrow morning, what do you want me to do with it, throw it in the box for the next meeting or throw it in your boxes.
Board Member DiSalvo stated um.
Board Member Cook stated put it on the agenda, we’ve got enough on the agenda.
Board Member Pierro stated review it, see if its complete.
Ted Kozlowski stated put him on the agenda and we can always take him off the agenda.
Board Member DiSalvo stated next week is going to be pretty lengthy.
Rich Williams stated I just heard two different things.
Chairman Rogan stated that’s.
Board Member Pierro stated review it, if its not complete then.
Rich Williams stated well I understand, if its complete you want it on the agenda or you don’t.
Board Member Montesano stated no, wait a minute, take a vote.
Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 77
Board Member DiSalvo stated no, I don’t.
Chairman Rogan stated all we got to do though is say we’re going to go do a site walk, collect information, we are not going to argue with the guy because we don’t even know other than collecting information.
Ted Kozlowski stated you have to go on site.
Chairman Rogan stated we have to go out there, so.
Ted Kozlowski stated you guys have to see this.
Chairman Rogan stated we’re not making a decision, we can always put him on the agenda, get the information and.
Board Member DiSalvo stated but we’re past the deadline, its not like it’s a sign or something.
Chairman Rogan stated we have other, its true, you’re right, its not a sign.
Board Member DiSalvo stated we’re going to set a precedence with.
Chairman Rogan stated yeah.
Rich Williams stated you don’t have to, wait, you don’t have to put him on the agenda to go do a site walk.
Board Member DiSalvo stated right.
Chairman Rogan stated true, all right.
Ted Kozlowski stated I think you get him on the agenda, set the site walk go to the site and then deal with it in July.
Board Member DiSalvo stated we can put it under other business, future site walks and then talk about it.
Chairman Rogan stated other business.
Ted Kozlowski stated my feeling is, he is making progress, its unorthodox but he’s making progress in cleaning it up.
Chairman Rogan stated okay, motion to adjourn.
Board Member Pierro stated motion to adjourn.
Board Member Montesano seconded the motion.
Chairman Rogan asks for all in favor:
Board Member Cook - aye Board Member DiSalvo - aye Board Member Montesano - aye Planning Board Meeting Minutes May 28, 2009 Minutes Page 78
Board Member Pierro - aye Chairman Rogan - aye
Motion carries by a vote of 5 to 0.
The meeting adjourned at 9:47 p.m.