The Skating Lesson Podcast Transcript The Skating Lesson Interview with Tim Goebel

Part I

Jenny Kirk: Hello, and welcome to The Skating Lesson podcast where we interview influential people in the world of figure skating so that they can share with us the lessons they learned along the way. I’m Jennifer Kirk, a former US ladies competitor and a three-time world team member.

Dave Lease: I’m David Lease. I didn’t compete at nationals, I wasn’t on the world team – but I am a figure skating blogger and current adult skater.

Jenny: If at any point during this podcast, you have questions, comments, anything you’d like to add, feel free to shoot us an e-mail at [email protected]. You can also find us on Twitter at twitter.com/ skatinglesson.

Dave: Today, we are thrilled to welcome Timothy Goebel to The Skating Lesson. Tim Goebel is the 2002 Olympic bronze medalist. He’s a two-time world silver medalist, the 2001 United States men’s champion, and a 2010 graduate of Columbia University.

[Tim enters]

Dave: All right, well, Tim, nationals are coming up, and Dick Button always said – it’s the most important competition of the year, you are competing against your peers. Now I actually heard that you hated competing at nationals.

Timothy Goebel: Oh, absolutely. I hated nationals.

Jenny: Me, too!

Tim: I hated nationals because it really is – it is the most important competition in the year. It decides your entire next season, and in some cases, basically the rest of your career. I mean, one disastrous nationals, you’re off the world team, you’re not getting good Grand Prix assignments or junior Grand Prix assignments depending on your eligibility. And it’s a lot of – it’s really a lot of pressure. Like without question, competing at nationals was a thousand times harder than competing at the Olympics.

Dave: Now, how would you describe being at nationals? Like what do you remember about competing at nationals – the whole week, everything?

Tim: Being at nationals is like the death by a thousand cuts. It’s just – every time you walk out of your room, you feel like you need a flak jacket, it’s – everything you do is scrutinized from what you’re wearing in the elevator to like who and how you talk to people. And it’s just – it’s a miserable, awful, gut-wrenching experience. And I miss a lot about competing, but I absolutely despised nationals.

Dave: I guess, looking at nationals this year for the US men, Jeremy Abbot’s the defending champion, but he hasn’t really landed the quad in competition consistently. And we started to have some younger skaters like Max Aaron, Joshua Farris, Ross Miner – who are really starting to land the quad, but they don’t have that kind of international reputation or maybe the component scores. So I wonder, how do you see nationals shaping up this year?

Tim: Well I think, you know, we have a lot younger skaters that are really talented that are kind of starting to break through to the top. And really, like once you go to worlds for the first time or even get your first senior Grand Prix event and do well, your component scores automatically go up by a point. I mean, it’s just kind of how it is. It’s going to be very interesting because when you have only two spots and you have five or six that on their best day could make the team, it’s either going to be a great last six skaters or they’re all going to implode. You know, it’s tough when you have a lot of talent and not a lot of room, people either are amazing or they completely fall apart. I’m thinking with the experience that some of the newer kids have had competing well all the, you know, through the whole junior Grand Prix season, I think they’re ready to go out and really perform. It’s just a matter of making not such a big deal about it.

Jenny: You know, Tim, while I was doing my research for this, I actually found an interesting quote from you from a January 2003 New York Times article. I think it was before Dallas nationals that year. And you said, “I don’t come into a competition to be the star or anything. I come in to do my job.” And I thought that was just really interesting because as you’re saying, you were really known as a consistent skater. That you could – I always admired you because you were someone who could really put it down when it counted. But you also were criticized at some points during your career because of – you were so focused on the technical, maybe a lack of artistic merit. So I was wondering if you could just elaborate on what you meant by that quote, and was this really a philosophy that you had throughout your career?

Tim: Well I think it’s really about – like a lot of people I feel that don’t compete well go into a competition and try – they try to go out and make it like the best long program that they’ve ever done when in reality, it’s just about going and doing what you do every day. And I think – you know, like when we were with Frank, we did a short and a long every day. It was compulsory, and that’s what we did. Like, take it or leave it, we knew that we could get through the programs, we could get through all the steps. It’s not like now under the Code of Points where you, like, sort of like down to take things out of the program or make it easier because other people make mistakes, and you can kind of juggle things around more. Where like, we went out and did the exact same program in competition that we trained. So in that sense, it’s like – okay, I go to the rink, I put my skates on, and I do my long program. There’s just – at nationals happened to be a lot more people watching. Not so much maybe any…

Jenny: And unfortunately, maybe not so much anymore than the early 2000s.

Tim: But yeah, I mean, I think the key especially at nationals, the key is to not make such a big deal about it even though it is a really big deal. And just to go out and do whatever you’re trained to do. And I think that was probably one of the things that helped me compete consistently. That didn’t work out so well for me in Dallas, necessarily, but in, you know, in general, you’re not going to go out in competition and have this magical skate that, like, if you’ve never done a clean long in practice, it’s probably not going to happen in competition. So, like, you have to know – you have to be sort of realistic with what you’re prepared to do and what you’ve actually, you know, put down either in competition in prior to nationals or what you’ve been doing in practice up until it.

Dave: So one thing I wanted to ask was that we have a ton of men at the top who’ve been around a while that have been very inconsistent skaters, at least on the world stage. And I was wondering, how do you get that consistency back? Do you think the judges almost need to push down some of these older skaters who haven’t delivered and kind of, you know, promote the younger skaters who are seemingly delivering on the junior Grand Prix, or, I guess, how do you think the US gets that consistency back for the men? Because they really have a struggle about getting three spots next year.

Tim: It’s – when you have two spots, it’s tough. When you have three spots, you have a throwaway spot. So you send your, you know, kind of the top two that have the best realistic chance of getting on the podium and then you send a developmental. The game changes when you only have two spots because we know that we have some really great talent at the top that is experienced on the international scene as senior, but they really haven’t delivered under pressure. So the question then becomes – since they’re not really all that dependable, personally for me, I would like to see one of the sort of veterans go and then send a developmental because they’ve have proven themselves. They’ve been consistent at the junior Grand Prixs, and really, it’s not that different anymore. Like, they’re doing the same program at the junior Grand Prix that they’re doing at senior. They’re really – when you look at the sheets, there’s not that much difference in the content of the programs. I would like to see one of our, you know, sort of more experienced people go and then send a developmental because they need that experience. Because say a Josh Farris or a Max Aaron has a blowout season next year and ends up going to the Olympics, hypothetically. If they have not been to the worlds, they will not break into the top five. That’s just the way it goes, and it’s time to give them an opportunity. They have proven themselves – granted, not at the senior level yet, but I think it’s time to give them the experience over people that we’ve sent to previous world championships, and they haven’t really delivered.

Part II

Dave: I guess, the US men seem to have a lot of lack of quadruple jumps and a lack of, you know, triple axels often. Is this something where you think that maybe, in the old system for a long time, that the quad, like your quads weren’t being valued as much as they should have been at nationals or someone who could do a quad. I guess, you know, why is the US really starting to lag behind technically all of a sudden?

Tim: Well I think it became – I think it was partly a product of the Code of Points because it was so punitive. If you fell on a quad, and God forbid if you fell a little bit short, it was basically like – not only are you using, you get no points for it, but you’re also gonna get dinged – you know, minus one for the fall. And your components get dinged. And it’s – so like across the board, it was like, if you didn’t know one hundred percent that you were going to land it, it was like a suicide mission. And, you know, a lot of people fell victim to that because it’s like – oh, I should try the quad, yeah I’m landing it in practice. But then they would get out for nationals, and be like – you know what, it’s not worth it because you go from potentially winning to being sixth. There’s really nothing you can do. So I think it’s partly a product of the IJS itself, but I think it was exacerbated by USFS. I don’t think that, you know, I think that too much of the other stuff was dinged when people did miss. And you know what, you knew at some point that one of the international kids was going to start doing them because, you know, in those countries at nationals they were not going to lose. Like, the guy from Spain [Javier Fernandez] goes out like he’s going, like – he’s clearly the best one in their country. So, like even if he falls on a quad or falls on two quads, he’s going to win. So it’s worth it in that sense for him to take the risk because at least within his own country, there’s nothing to lose. Here it’s a little different, but I don’t think that the emphasis was pushed – put in the right place both by the judging establishment and in most cases by the coaches. It was like – play it safe, do a clean program, whatever. But in the long run, we’re – it just doesn’t work.

Dave: So do you think that maybe selecting you know the world team for this year when we’re, you know, picking, you know, trying to get spots for the Olympics next year. Do you think that maybe they should go towards a more selection-based procedure when there are two spots? That way, some of the people can feel comfortable, you know, putting the more difficult jumps out at nationals, and you kind of take whoever has been the best along the season. If maybe they’re third at nationals but they had – they did better at the Grand Prix than someone, I guess do you think it should be more like gymnastics where there is a selection, or do you think we should just – whoever puts it down at nationals, we send them?

Tim: There is actually a selection – I don’t really remember the exact details of it, but we actually go through a selection process where it doesn’t – it’s not 100% based on nationals, but I think in the past, nationals has been too heavily weighted because in a lot of cases, the results at nationals I don’t always feel reflect what people actually did at that nationals. So I don’t necessarily think – even if everyone goes and skates well, I don’t think nationals is really a clean slate. Like, there’s always some weird political stuff behind the scenes, like the – a lot of people don’t always win when they should. It’s maybe a year late, it’s maybe a year early. But I – it doesn’t necessarily line up to what’s done that day.

Jenny: Is that something that, as a skater, you know going in? Because in 2000, you skated so well, but it really seemed like it was Michael Weiss’s year. And then in 2001, it seemed like it was your year, it was your time. So as you talk about nationals, is that something that where there were certain years that you knew going in that this was your moment beforehand? Tim: I didn’t actually feel that way going into Boston. I didn’t – I was injured and I had been off the ice and I wasn’t particularly skating that well at the time. But there’s – I don’t necessarily – I never necessarily felt like I was going in as the favorite. But I think as competitors, and I don’t know, Jen, you probably have felt this yourself, but like – you also know going in when you, like – like you know that it’s, no matter how well you skate, you are not going to win.

Jenny: Yes. I know that very well.

Tim: I mean you basically the, you know, the people that have been deemed better than you basically would have to go out and do a free dance to not win. And so, I – I don’t know if it’s quite the same now with IJS because, you know, you have to add the points up from somewhere. But I think there is a sense of like, you know certain people are going to get generous component scores to kind of make it all work out the way it sort of the inner workings of the federation want it to work out. And I think that’s always been the case, and I don’t think that people are always necessarily fooled, especially the audience.

Jenny: I think that’s so right. And I think when we talk about this, you think of the role that the buzz surrounding a skater plays and kind of that momentum going into the competition whether it’s the early season. I was also wondering what you thought about the role that commentators play. Did you listen to your events back after – after you skated, and did you pay attention to the press surrounding you whether it was positive or negative, or were you someone who tried to shield yourself from that buzz?

Tim: I definitely – I never listened to the commentary when I was watching. Like when I watch my competition programs after a competition, I would watch like either, you know, on the internet or whatever. Like, not necessarily with the commentators. I think honestly most of the commentators over the course of our careers, Jen, were extremely biased. And I think they did a lot of damage to people’s careers, quite frankly.

Jenny: It makes me think of the refrigerator break comment. I thought that so uncalled for.

Tim: So unprofessional – honestly, I think for most of our careers, they sat in a bully pulpit. They trashed people that didn’t – their commentary didn’t even necessarily reflect what people were doing at that time. Personally, I didn’t feel there was very little – very much journalistic integrity. They really – they had their favorites, it was very obvious, and then everyone else just got shredded. I definitely thought it was less so at the Olympics, but it was also a different group of commentators.

Dave: Do you think it’s important to kind of court the commentators because one thing that you’ll notice is that Scott Hamilton’s often maybe high on someone when they’re represented by IMG and if they’re supposed to do well or in the hunt for a medal. It seems like he loves them. He’ll be like, “oh, he’s such a great guy, such a great person for the sport, to know her is to love her.” And then they’re touring with Stars on Ice a couple weeks later. Whereas, you know, and you’ve heard Dick Button talk about, you know, a gift that Michelle Kwan gave him at nationals or certain skaters have said that certain skaters might have gone out to lunch with some of the commentators. So do you think that if you’re trying to establish a career, it’s really important to politic those judges? And those commentators to kind of get everyone on your side?

Tim: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I think the – and a lot of times the commentators even influence the judges to some extent. So, they, you know, perception becomes reality at that point. But it’s a, you know, it’s a tough sort of line to walk between like, you know, being cordial and building those bridges and then just – there becomes a point where the relationship is too close and then it can’t really be professional anymore. I think that’s much less true with the print media. Like there’s a bunch of reporters over the years that like wrote very favorable things and when I did well, and when I didn’t do well, called it like it was. But like I would still be able to go and like, you know, have a cup of coffee with them backstage at nationals or at worlds or whatever. And it’s fine – like, they’re doing their job. But I think there’s also something – there’s a little bit more at stake when it’s written down because you can go to someone and highlight a line and be like, that’s not accurate or that’s, you know, a little something. Whereas on TV, it’s like – what are you going to do, run around like one of the little microphone things and be like, “okay, like that was…”

Jenny: Truth!

Tim: Yeah, like you’re gonna play about for a minute, and be like – okay, you’re rude? I mean, you can’t really do…

Jenny: Yeah, and seems like it’s more subjective, too, in a way. Part III

Tim: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Dave: One thing that we were curious about was we were actually watching your programs together. And it seemed like – we were wondering as to how much of a role you think the coach has because we were watching your programs from 2000 to 2001. And at that point, we didn’t see a huge difference in terms of your skating. But the way that maybe Dick Button talked about you was very different. You were now with Frank Carroll, and it seemed like…

Jenny: Your artistry was flourishing, and that was really the story of the year.

Tim: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I definitely think whoever is standing at the boards with you makes a huge difference. I mean, especially with someone like Frank who’s known for like taking people that are very good technically and like putting the package together, you know. Improving the choreography, better music selection, better costuming, and like putting the package together. So, automatically, I think that makes a difference. I think – but I also think, sort of, even if you don’t actually see the results, I think the mindset also becomes different when you’re in that environment. Because it does become a priority, and it’s not just a drill, and it’s like – it’s just, when you’re with some of the more experienced coaches that are known, that have a reputation for packaging, even if you don’t necessarily make those incremental improvements when you’re competing, it’s about little stupid things that I never thought about as a skater. But like higher stroking around during practice, do you like shlumping around into your jumps or are you like trying to sort of make your practice more of a performance? And I think it’s those little things – the little details in the practice that don’t necessarily always translate into competition right away. I think those are the little things that the judges kind of pick up on and look after and, like, you know the judges love their forty minute – I mean, they don’t even, I don’t even know if they skate practice in the competition rink anymore. I think they go to like, you know, icelands out in the suburbs or whatever. But like we used to have two forty-minute practices a day. One was in the arena, one was not. And it was basically a mini-competition. You had to go out there, and you had to have, you know, like the practice outfit and the – you couldn’t go in like we used to go into [audio gets weird] with like nine layers of clothes on and…

Jenny: Yeah, our earmuffs and our sunglasses!

Tim: Yeah, I know, and I’m like – you can’t even like move your hands you’re so cold. But it – I think those things are definitely picked up on before you actually see a difference in competition. So, again, it’s kind of the whole perception thing, that like, you – like, if I see a kid come out and I’m on a technical panel, not that that’s gonna happen anytime soon, but if I see Frank standing there, I know they’re gonna be – you know, they’re gonna get through the program, but it’s not going to be – like, they’re capable of skating the programs they’re doing, and it’s gonna be – it’s not going to – you know, you see some, certain coaches go out and like, they have tons of kids that are loaded with talent, but like, they might do a clean program or they might fall four times. And you kind of have no idea. But with the veteran coaches, you kind of know they’re gonna go out and, like, it might not be lights out the best thing you’ve ever done, but you know, they’re gonna be like – it’s not gonna be a pass.

Jenny: They’re trained. Yeah. Dave: Do you think that having a veteran coach is more important nationally or more important internationally? Like, is there a difference, and is there a certain point where a coach may be more politically connected nationally but not internationally or vice versa? You know, is that an important choice to make when you’re selecting a coach when you’re out on that level?

Tim: For singles, I don’t necessarily think that’s the case. In ice dance, clearly there’s a HUGE – it’s very obvious. I mean, the coaches that do the best are – have the most connections. Or the coaches whose teams do the best, I should say.

Dave: So, then, did you go to Tatiana Tarasova because you thought that she was a great choreographer or did you think that maybe she could help you with the European judges?

Tim: Actually, no, I didn’t even really consider that. I went to her – like, I always respected her work. I’d always wanted to work with her. That was never an option when I was with Frank, so it was something that I wanted to try. I absolutely loved working with her. But you know, at that point, like, politics weren’t going to help me at that point. Like, I’d been on the podium, I’d been on the top. I had enough cache, it was just a matter of me, like, actually landing the stuff and doing the choreography. So for someone in that position, in the arc of my career, it wouldn’t have a difference. For someone, for example, like one of our junior men who’s competing in senior, they haven’t had that much exposure to the highest level of ISU judges. So it wouldn’t necessarily hurt them to have someone like Tatiana who has been around a long time, and she can create a little bit of buzz. And everyone knows that no matter what her kids go out and do jump-wise, it’s going to be exciting. So, for the younger kids I think it would make a little bit of impact. But like once you’re talking top five, top six in the world, it doesn’t matter. Not for singles.

Jenny: So, Tim, you and I really, our friendship became closer when we were training together in El Segundo with Frank Carroll. Those were the days!

Tim: Ohh, they were!

Jenny: And at the time, when I came there, he had Evan Lysacek as well who was another senior-level competitor. And Frank is kind of known for – if he has one competitor, he’ll ask before he accepts another skater in the same level. He’ll ask that person if it’s okay with them if this next competitor comes. So, I was wondering what it was like if he did ask you before Evan came to train with him and what it was like training with a competitor. Because at the time, you were really the more established skater. What was that like, skating with a competitor every day? Was it difficult for you, or did it motivate you more?

Tim: I found it very difficult, actually, because there’s never – you almost felt like you were competing for the coach’s attention. I mean, I definitely felt – whether it was just my perception or not, but I definitely felt like once Evan started training better than I was training, that Frank had really checked out. And I, you know, watching him train some of the other girls when he had, you know, Angela and didn’t catch the name at the same time, and then you were there at the same time as Bebe, and it definitely – I definitely felt, whether it’s accurate or not that once you are superseded by a younger one that you are replaced. That even if he doesn’t actually fire you, there’s a marked difference in like the interactions. It’s just – it’s much more – there’s not that same close relationship. It’s like – he’s not phoning it in, he does pay attention and he does care, but you can tell that he cares less.

Jenny: And I think it’s interesting when you say “fire you,” because after you and Frank split at the beginning of the 2004-2005 season, you were pretty vocal, saying that you felt like you were fired. And I – we don’t hear that a lot from a skater. So I thought that was really interesting. And at the time, Frank told the LA Times that you guys had discussed the parting over a period of time and that you guys were fine with each other as people. But he said that “it got to the point where it was difficult to work together and it was not the best environment for him.” So, can you explain what happened in terms of that split, and was that something where it was discussed over a period of time? You talk about Evan coming in – it must have been really difficult to train with someone feeling like he had a foot out the door or he was focusing more of his attention on somebody else. And what did he mean by “it wasn’t the best environment for you?”

Tim: It had become a very toxic environment. I mean, it was painfully obvious. And I just think, you know, I think a lot of it was my own insecurity, you know. I wasn’t skating that well, I was injured all the time, I would like be back on the ice for three weeks, I’d be off for two – it was, I wasn’t trained, I wasn’t healthy. Physically, like I was a disaster. And it just became – like, I always felt like I was clawing my way to like stay in, and it was – I mean, it was absolutely the best decision for both of us that I left. It was just – I think he probably saw the writing on the wall before I either realized it or was willing to accept it. And it wasn’t so much that we parted ways, it was the timing. Like, it was the day before we left for a Grand Prix that he then came with me to a NHK that year. He and I had discussed that we were no longer working together, and then we had to go to a Grand Prix event where I, as someone who coaches a little bit, would have, you know, sucked it up, gone through the competition, you know, put the smile on, pretend everything was perfect. Which it did, but like even though he had decided that it was over, I think – I would definitely have not felt like I had been fired if he had waited to the end of the event and said, “look, obviously this isn’t healthy for you. This isn’t working for me. I really think it would be best for everyone involved if you went and trained somewhere else,” instead of when we’re like basically on the way to the airport. There wasn’t so much – we needed to part ways, but it was the timing.

Jenny: Oh, wow.

Part IV

Jenny: So he told you – I’m sorry – he told you while you were driving to the airport before the event?

Tim: No, no – not literally, but it was I believe we stopped working together on a Thursday, and we were flying out on Saturday. So it was like – that was a lot to take in. You know what, though, it did – like I was so, even though I wasn’t necessarily that prepared, I went and I skated really well because I was like, “so!” I was like, “you don’t think I can do this? Watch me!” So I think in a way it helped me get through that competition, but again, the timing was really poor, and had it happened in August or even in September, I would have fine with it because we hadn’t been working that well together. And, you know, I did feel that I had been replaced, and I would have been much happier working with someone else at that point.

Dave: I guess one thing that we were wondering is that – you know, you really told ESPN that you were fired by Frank. And he kind of didn’t indicate that as much. I think often times when people split, you know, there’s a sense of, “oh, we parted as great friends, and we have a wonderful relationships.” But you really told ESPN how it was. And we were wondering, you know, why you decided to do that as opposed to going kind of by the party line that “we’re just switching coaches and everything’s fine and it just happens sometimes!”

Tim: You know what, I think all too often, especially within US Figure Skating, everyone wants to sugarcoat everything and everything is all like – everyone has their rose-colored glasses on? Like – I especially at the time felt like it was a really shitty thing to do two days before a competition. I still feel that way. I don’t – I don’t agree with the timing. It was a really, really horrible experience that week in NHK, and basically, the only people who knew about it were obviously my family and Frank and Audrey. So it was – you know, we would go down and we would be sitting down and eating, and it was like – I’m, like, please, someone shoot me in the face! This is like so painful, and so uncomfortable! But I – everyone tried to be so PC and so, like – when you’re in a very high-pressure situation and there’s a lot on the line, shitty things happened. People do things that they probably looking back a year later wouldn’t have handled things the same way. I have certainly, like – when I fired Carol, it was the same thing. It was like, two weeks before worlds, and I was just over it. And I definitely did not handle that situation in a way that was necessarily respectful or diplomatic. I would have done that differently. But no one ever talks about that, and it’s like – get a grip! Everyone is always expected to be so perfect and so pristine and everything! And like, behind the scenes, it’s like – come on, it’s ugly!

Jenny: It’s very ugly! Tim: There’s politics, there’s backstabbing…

Jenny: There’s tears.

Tim: People will do really horrible things to each other, and parents saying nasty things about other people’s children, and you know, like – honestly, like that’s kind of what makes it interesting for us as athletes!

Jenny: I think it’s time to take the veil off, yeah.

There is injury, there is scandal. It’s real, it’s real life, and like – I think if sort of the outside world even like the lower level skaters saw a little bit more of reality, they wouldn’t become so disillusioned when they’re actually put in that environment.

Dave: I guess we were wondering is – what part does money and financial percentages take in? I guess, what kind of percentage was Frank getting from you? Was it just your earnings, is it when you tour, and, you know, did he think that he would be getting, you know, more monetary results from someone else at that point? I guess what, you know, role does money play in skating?

Tim: I think – for the most part, I think coaches are very monetarily driven. And I don’t even remember who said it, but one of my coaches – it might have been Lori, it might have been Audrey, I don’t remember – but they said, you know, often times the coaches get too much of the credit when things go well and not enough blame when things don’t. And I think that’s very true. But at no point do they not get their cut. I paid Frank a lot of money. All the top coaches charge their kids a lot of money. It’s – you know, your hourly time. It’s competitions – there’s a flat fee. And then you pay a percentage.

Dave: Do they get percentage from shows?

Tim: From everything that I ever did in skating that I made a dime off of while I was training with him, he got a cut. He also – it was in the contract – he got a cut of everything that I got after he dropped me. So I had a very hard time with that. He knows I had a very hard time with that. I think it’s extremely unethical. It was in the contract, I had to sign it, I needed a coach, you know. In June when I signed the contract every year, things were not really going all that poorly. So, yes – I have a very hard time with that. I don’t think it’s right – I think it’s unethical.

Jenny: And as we’re talking about famous splits, one of the things that we were wondering – you trained when you went to Frank at the end of the 2000 season, you were training there with Michelle while she was with Frank as well. And that was just one of the biggest splits, I think, ever in figure skating. And Michelle is such an acclaimed and really respected athlete. Can you shed any light on what happened during that – the dissolution of that relationship, and what was it like training with Michelle every day at the start of the 2001-2002 season?

Tim: It was really very strange. I think we – everyone that trained there, I think – we were as stunned as Frank. I didn’t – obviously, I didn’t pay that much attention to their sort of inner workings, but she was training well. Everything seemed to be fine. Everyone seemed to be happy, and then – I didn’t even find out I don’t think from Frank. My – we had gone to that pre-Olympics media summit in Salt Lake City. So, it was like Frank, myself, obviously Michelle, Sasha was there – a bunch of like sort of the people that had a legitimate chance of making the team. And so we went from there, and we went straight to – what’s it called – Skate America in Colorado Springs. My mom was on the flight from LA to Colorado Springs with Danny Kwan, and he was like, “oh, I have something to tell you.” My mom was like, “oh, okay, wow.” So she called me, and she was like, “so have you talked to Frank?” And I was like, “nooo….” So we, you know, the first day of like official practice at Skate America, everyone was like – oh, my gosh, the sky is falling, what’s going on. I’m like – I had no idea. It wasn’t discussed – nobody in the rink even really talked about it. It was like – it was like the giant elephant in the room. No one ever really talked about it. No one really understands why it happened.

Jenny: To this day, you don’t know? Tim: No one – yeah, it’s like sort of like the mystery – I think – they’re still good friends. Like, they go to lunch. They respect each other, and I really believe they care about each other very deeply. It’s bizarre. Like still, to this day, one of the most bizarre things I have seen in skating. And that’s saying a lot!

Jenny: It is saying a lot!

Dave: I guess what was Michelle like as a training mate? You know, Michelle was a larger than life figure, so – and she’s known as being very consistent. Is she someone who did a million programs like Tara Lipinski, or is that more mental strength that she has? What’s she like as a trainer?

Tim: Training with Michelle was really awful because she didn’t really make mistakes. Like, you know, in June and July when we start running our programs, I’m like, you know, playing the part of the Zamboni, and I’m literally like falling and hurting myself during a run-through. Where like – Michelle, she was doing longs with like six triples. It was like – from that standpoint, okay, so she would maybe have like two weeks of rough long program run-throughs, and then it was like, automatic, you know. Maybe a step out here or a hand down there. She trained the way she competed. She was very consistent. She was very disciplined. She went out and did the exact same thing every day. She was on the ice at the same time. It was like – and that’s something that especially when I got to Frank that sort of became like why I did get better, at least consistency-wise is that everything is regimented. Like, you do the same thing every day. So when you do – so that was the whole, like when I go to competition, I’m just doing my job. Like, that’s how Frank trained us to train. It’s like you go, you get on in the morning, you warm up, you do whatever, you do a short program. You get off, you take a break, you get on, you warm up, you do all your jumps, and you do your long program. And then, you know, you stick around and you do sections, work on spins, what have you. But, like, that was our day every day. Like, there was no sort of deviating from that. And Michelle more than anyone was just disciplined. She just went out even when she was having a really terrible day, and she would go out there and spin around the first jump – she never, I never saw her stop her music once. And I was guilty – I may or may not have stopped a program run- through or two, and Frank just loved that, let me tell you. Jen, I’m sure you remember.

Jenny: Yeah, there was no stopping. I think that’s smart, though. You shouldn’t stop.

Tim: It is. It absolutely is smart, and like, even, like, even as athletes, we know that. But it’s like sometimes it’s just so hard.

Jenny: Because you wanna be perfect. You miss that first jump, it is so hard!

Tim: Yeah, you know once you’ve missed that first jump, it’s not going to be a perfect run-through. But it’s not about that. Like, it’s about – you come in, like, okay the first time I landed three quads in competition, I splattered on my ____ triple flip. Had I not been forced to get up and keep going, I never would have set that record, and like, who knows? But it’s staying in and it’s not fun, and when you miss that first jump and you’re not gonna do the clean long, and you’re like – ugh, I have to do this for four more minutes? Like, please!

Jenny: Right, it is the worst feeling to keep yourself going.

Tim: Yeah, like can a ceiling tile fall on my head or something? You like almost wanna get hurt so that you can be like – at least I’m bleeding or maybe I’ll be able to write this one off, or…

Jenny: Right, maybe have mercy on me! Let me start again, get a Band-Aide.

Tim: But that’s why Michelle was as – like even in competition, she would go out and she would warm up and she would do her run-through. And like, the first time I saw her do a run-through at a competition practice, I was like – that’s absurd! What did she do?

Part V Jenny: Right, nobody ever does a full run-through!

Tim: It’s hard, like save some energy! And that’s, you know. I was terrible at doing run-throughs at competitions. There was usually a lot of tears and, you know, the occasional skate-through. I wasn’t a big competition run-through person. It just didn’t – it freaked me out for some reason.

Jenny: Why did it freak you out? Is it because you said earlier that those practice sessions at nationals are like mini competitions? Did you not wanna make a mistake, or was it you were saving your muscles?

Tim: It was – ninety percent of it was just saving my energy because like going out and basically doing a competition run-through every three days is exhausting. And I actually did it one year at Skate America in the altitude in Colorado Springs. And I did a run-through every day except for the day before the short. And by the time the long program rolled around, I was shot. I had – there was nothing left in the tank. So I think part of it is – not part of it, I think eighty percent of like the fatigue factor from doing competition run-throughs is mental. Because it’s like exhausting to put yourself on the line day after day after day. But yeah – the other part of it is like, you feel like if you go out, or I always felt like this especially for a short program, like if I go out and fall in my combination in practice, you know, in a practice run-through, like if I so much as do a double-three on the triple toe as the second jump, they’re gonna be like, “oh, he can’t do a short program. He’s not consistent.” You know, “he’s not gonna be able to get it done.” And it’s like – I’ll get it done when I need to, like, just like for me in that sense, it was like – I’m prepared to compete well. I’m very well trained, and – but I’m doing this on my terms, and I don’t care that you wanna see a full run-through. Like, you’ll see a full run-through when you need to on Thursday afternoon, you know, whenever the fates decided I drew my lucky number to do my short program. And like – that’s the only thing you should judge me on. And we know that that’s not the case. And I think, to some extent, that that was detrimental that I didn’t do that. Even like – mostly from the standpoint of like seeing the growth in the choreography. Like, even if I would have gone out and done a run-through and like fallen on my combination or whatever, they would have seen and they would have paid more attention to the in- between and focusing on the spins and having a little more finish. So from that standpoint, it hurt me. But I knew that I could deliver when it counted, and it was like – it was just too much to do that every day. Like it was mentally exhausting.

Dave: Now when you talk about putting out content, one thing that we really noticed is that you always did the program that you were gonna do at the world championships at Skate America. You put out those three quads, where I think now, we’re still waiting for Ashley Wagner to do that triple flip-triple toe and that double axel- triple toe. We hear about it all the time, we’re still waiting for Jeremy Abbott to put that quad in the short program. We’ve seen him do it in a couple shows, and it doesn’t happen. So how important is peaking, and how important is really getting the content out there? I mean, you did your program every time whereas some of these skaters, you know, are waiting. So, you know, can we expect them to put it in later? Is it even possible? I guess, what are your thoughts on that?

Tim: My thoughts, and this is definitely something that both Carol and Frank instilled in me is that, like, you do the program that you’re going to do at the beginning of the year because that’s the program that you’re doing. And let’s be honest, Jen – did you ever go out in a competition, or did you ever go out and put something new in a competition program and land it the first time you put it in a program in competition? I would say that ninety percent of the time, no.

Jenny: Right, or at least doing it in an exhibition first.

Tim: Right, exactly. And it’s just not the same, so like, better to take the hit at Skate America and, you know crash and burn on sort of your big ticket item [audio cuts out/video freezes] take you, like I think I did a quad in my competition program at least twelve or thirteen times before I landed it quickly. And for the big ticket items – like for the guys for the quads and for the girls the triple-triples, I think it’s the same thing. Like, you’re gonna go down in it a couple times, like if you think, if you seriously think you’re gonna go out there at nationals and land sort of a new trick at nationals with all the other things that are going on at nationals, like, you’re either lucky or stupid. Because it’s just realistically it’s not going to happen. And I think, that’s why I think that’s another reason that we sort of fell behind because it’s like, “oh, I’ll wait till nationals, oh, I’ll wait till worlds, oh, well,” when we used to have an initial round, it’s like, “oh, well, you know, I wanna get a good seed, you know I wanna play it safe in the initial round. I’ll do it in the final. Oh, well, I just did a short yesterday and I’m tired…” and then it’s already three seasons later, and you’ve – it’s stupid, I think, because if you’re considering putting it in a program, I’m assuming you’re landing it seventy-five or eighty percent of the time, at least, you should be. So if you’re doing it that consistently, like, it’s not really that much of a risk. Therefore, why make such a big deal about it and just go out there and do it? Stop talking about it and do it. We know Jeremy can land a quad, I’ve seen it. I’ve seen him land quads for years, he does a beautiful quad toe when he wants to. The – just do it! If you fall on it, okay, like – I would rather see someone crash and burn on a quad that do a triple toe-triple toe. Like, it’s boring. I saw that, you know, we have intermediate men that are doing triple toe-triple toe. Like it’s not interesting to me.

Jenny: It’s time to up the ante.

Tim: Yeah, like, man up.

Jenny: Man up!

Tim: Or like, girl up for the girl skaters. Like step it up!

Jenny: Woman up! Speaking of the quad – you were so successful. You landed something like 76 quads during your career which is just unbelievable. But it did take a toll on your body. Did you think it was worth it, and do you think that may be a reason why people are scaling back in terms of pushing themselves technically?

Tim: I think definitely 99% of my injuries were related to doing quads because I didn’t – when I first started doing them, especially when I was very young, I didn’t really go about doing them in an organized way.

Jenny: What do you mean by that?

Tim: The way that I started landing quads is that I literally would get on the ice for two or three sessions a day, and I would do 18 or 20 or 25. And then I would just go and crash and burn. But I just did – like there was no sort of, there was no, like, I’ll go back and do a triple, like, or go do an exercise. I would just like literally fling my body into the air in any and just rotate and hope for the best. And had I been more disciplined, and like – when people, when other coaches would come for Skate Cleveland or whatever, and saw me on just a normal training session, they were like, “you’re insane. You can’t do that.” I’m like, “I’m fine!” Like I was never injured, I would like have as much energy on a Friday as I did on a Monday, it was like – quad quad quad quad quad. I was doing – at one point, I was landing the sal and toe and I was working on loop. And I would do eighty quads a day, on a long day which is just bananas. It was stupid. And it definitely cost me the last two years of my career because I just never – there were too many injuries to fix to train well enough to compete well. I was never injured. I was never…

Dave: Were those injuries just something that happened on a fall, or do you think it was like a cumulative…

Tim: It was all the stuff. It was really all overuse stuff. I mean, yeah, I would take the occasional, like splat and like maybe knock my back out. But like, everyone does that. I mean, all of the injuries, and I still, like I still every so often go to a chiropractor or go to like an AIT person because my hips still bother me. And it was all – it was just overuse. It was doing too many repetitions, and especially when I was younger, not – like, we didn’t, I don’t know if we didn’t necessarily know or we just didn’t do it, but like…

Jenny: I think you think you’re invincible, too.

Tim: Yeah. That and like I didn’t – until I was older, I didn’t warm up before a section. I didn’t stretch when I got off the ice. I would like come in from school, you know, I would change in the car, I would come running in from school, and I would get on the ice and like within three to five minutes, I’d be doing a double axel. And, like, even when you’re young, that’s – it’s dangerous, and it’s like, you just set a bad – it’s just not good for your muscles to do that.

Part VI

Jenny: Well, when you talk about overuse injuries, it’s so common in the sport. Do you think that something where the coach needs to step in when they see someone like a young Tim Goebel doing eighty quads a week – is that something where Carol should have stepped in and said, “hey,” or would you have not listened to her?

Tim: I think – well of course I would not have listened! You know, I was fourteen, and I was like, “I can do this and no one else can, so I’m going to do whatever I want.” I was a treat to teach in my younger teenage years, let me tell you. Poor Carol. I don’t know how she stood – I don’t know how I didn’t age her twenty-five years. But really, I think the key is – the coaches know a lot better now. When we first started doing quads, like, I’ve even talked to like Mishin and Yagudin about this, like, we didn’t know. You can go and you can do fifteen or twenty triple flips a day, and like yeah, you might get shin splints, you might get tendonitis – but you’re not gonna have like joint muscular skeletal issues. I think – for girls, I think the triple-triple and I think for guys, triple axels and quads – it’s just a different ballgame, and it is more impact, and there is more, there’s a lot more torque. And when we first started doing the quads, it was sort of experimental. It was just like – hey, just kind of shock yourself up into the air like they – we would all at first were trying to, like, you know, jump higher or like jump more like straight up and down. We were really, it’s just a matter of getting into the rotation sooner. Like, we know that now. Yeah.

Jenny: Snap in it, yeah.

Dave: Did you use a harness to learn, or pads, or any of that?

Tim: I did it a little bit for the triple axel, like the normal on the track harness. But, like, I’m old. We didn’t have fishing pole harnesses when I was learning those things.

Jenny: Just kamikaze style!

Tim: It was, and like, you know, maybe one of those butt pad things if you’re like [audio cuts out] black and blue mark on your hip or whatever from like slapping onto the left side. Which – those are always a treat. But no, we didn’t – we didn’t do that. And it was like – we kind of, especially at ___, it was kind of like looked down on them. We were kind of like, “suck it up and take the hit or don’t.” But now, yes, I think coaches need to be much more diligent about limiting the number of repetitions on the harder stuff. And I think it’s like focusing more on like perfecting the takeoff on the triple, making sure every takeoff is the same, doing exercises like throwing in, you know, some drills and stuff because you can’t go out – even if you do ten quad attempts, when you’re learning it, it’s like – do three, go back, do a double, do a good triple. Like, check the takeoff, make sure the timing is right, make sure for the toe jumps, especially, make sure that the tap is going in and you’re not like torqueing the ankle and rolling out. So, yeah, I think it’s that, but I also think more – people don’t spend enough time doing off-ice. And like, when I competed my best, I was doing – I was spending as much time training off ice as I was training on ice. So it was, you know, warming up beforehand, stretching after I got off the ice, going to Pilates, going to the gym, doing cardio and lifting. And I think it’s very easy to get consumed in like – oh, I need to get a triple jump so I need you to do a lot of triple jumps. Well, yes, you need to do a lot of triple jumps, but you also need to be flexible enough and balanced enough because we get so lopsided, you know. Like – I actually could see a visible difference in, like, my quads at the end of the season. My right quad was bigger than my left because I was doing all the combinations with triple loops and second jumps because it takes a lot more, you know, pop. So I think there needs to be much more focus. Most of the high level coaches have sort of really been diligent in incorporating that. But I think it just really needs to be emphasized especially for the younger kids. Obviously, we’re not gonna have ten year olds on the squat machine and, you know, a couple hundred pounds on them. But they need to be doing something, they need to be doing some light plyos, and making sure that they’re not completely lopsided because I think that can probably be more damaging than necessarily the repetitions when you’re completely like not symmetrical.

Dave: One thing that we wanted to ask about was, peaking in terms of a career, I think in 2010 we saw Evan Lysacek really look almost like this was the best spot he was ever gonna look, you know. He was, you know, delivering at such a level consistently, you know, speed-wise. And in 2003 at the world championships, you know, your body just looked like you were on. You know, the performance was great. So, did you ever feel like – did you know when it was your peak, when you were at your best? Or did you still feel like you could push your body more? Because you did continue on for seasons after that.

Tim: You never realize it’s your peak until you start to slide. Because you don’t – like my even coming out in 2003 worlds, it was like – I assumed that if my body, like, assuming that I stayed healthy, I expected to get better. But at that point, my body was already starting to fall apart. And I never, like, I never really got the pieces put back together. So, I never – after 2003, never felt like I was healthy enough to train appropriately to get better. Like there was no way. It was barely like, you know, kind of scraping to hold on and to not lose things whereas by 2006, I had lost everything. Like, I was able to land a quad toe here and there, like, definitely more so at a nationals practice than any time in the six months prior to that. But I just – like, there was no quad sal, like, doing triple-triples hurt. And I just – I didn’t feel weak. I just felt like I couldn’t push myself hard enough to be good anymore. But again, you don’t know at the time, especially when you’re what, 22-23. I just assumed that I would get stronger and I would get better and I – because mentally I was so much more disciplined at that point. I was like, I want all these things, now all I need to do is apply them and I will just continue to get better.

Jenny: One of the things you talked about during that period in your career is that you had a bunch of boot problems and equipment problems. What role does equipment play, because I think people don’t understand – when one thing is off your boot or your blade as a skater, it can throw your whole season off, and it just can be so frustrating because it’s something that’s out of your control. Was that something that really came into play during that time as you spoke of?

Tim: It definitely played into the injuries. I, like, people don’t understand – like, having your blade set off by a millimeter in the front or in the back in the wrong direction – every slight little difference, you start to compensate. As an athlete, like when something feels off, if you have really good muscle memory which I did – I was good technically, but I was much more of a feeling skater. So, if things didn’t feel normal, like I would just kind of, naturally, my body would adapt until I was, like where I kind of felt like I needed to be. And I’m sure you’ve felt the same thing. You can adapt a little bit and adapt a little bit more and adapt a little bit more, but after a certain point, there’s no more moving parts to adapt, and that’s when the injuries start come in. And it’s so subtle, and you don’t feel it at the time. You absolutely don’t. And again, we’re talking about, like, hairline things being a little bit off. The problems – the boot problems that I was having was within the actual sole of the boot, the – I forget what it’s called, I think it’s called the stanchion, like basically the support inside the leather soles. They weren’t – they were a little bit twisted, so my foot was never truly sitting flat in the boot. And it was off just enough that, like, I was compensating and I was adjusting and I was, you know, moving the blade 55 times because nothing felt, you know, normal. And, like, I would go to the boot guy upstairs at ___, and I would be, “it’s, like, it’s not right, but I don’t know what to tell you. It just doesn’t feel right.” And I’m like, “it’s not the,” you know, after a while, I was like – it can’t be the setting, because I’ve done everything except put the blade on backwards. Like, you know.

Jenny: So frustrating, too.

Tim: Exactly, and then it starts to play into your head because then you start to think – maybe it is me, maybe I can’t do these things anymore. And, you know, after dealing with that from like September until February or March, like right before tour, you know, I switched to ____. He looked at my feet, fixed my feet, and then that point I was like, “oh, I actually can do this stuff again! Isn’t that, like, isn’t this novel! I can actually do the jumps that other people were doing.” But I think, you know, I think it becomes very easy to dismiss, especially the people that have been around, and are quote unquote “having a bad season,” when they’ve been really great in the past, I think it’s very easy to dismiss a boot issue as, you know, a training issue or a health issue or, you know, maybe they’re just not as good as they used to be. But I, like, it’s completely underestimated as to how much of an impact it has. Both because there is a physical component where you actually are changing technique and you are adapting to something that’s not correct. It’s not even necessarily something that ____ is wrong, but it’s like – it’s not right for you, it’s not working for that athlete at that time. But there’s the physical component and there’s the whole mental component, because once you start to doubt, going out in competition is just, like, a horror show. Like, I don’t know – I’m sure you’ve had competitions where you haven’t necessarily felt on your game. And you go out for your long – like, you can survive a short. But you go out there for a long program, and you’re like – this could be so bad it’s like beyond words. And once in a while it was, and you’re like – when you go out with that, like, pit in your stomach, like, I remember at Cup of China one year, it was right after I had had all the boot issues and the whatever and I wasn’t necessarily skating that well. And I remember during my long program looking up at the clock and being like – holy crap, I have two minutes left? I felt like someone had run me over with a train. My legs were starting to like shake, and I was like – I have to try and do another triple axel. I’m like – well, that’s clearly not happening. Like it just – when you’re that stressed out and you have that doubt and you have that, like, panic thing set in, like, no matter how well trained you are, it like – the legs go, you can’t breathe, like, it’s a terrible feeling.

Jenny: How much during your programs did you – were you thinking during them? Because I talk to some skaters, and they say they got off the ice, and they don’t remember anything. You just – the complete blank the second they got on the ice, and whereas other skaters say they, like you talk about, you can step on the ice and just know you’re going to skate really well or not really well. Are there really any memorable performance where you just remember skating really, really well and knowing it, and to that end, did you talk to yourself during a program? What was it usually like for you out there?

Part VI

Tim: Like, I – I remember random things from, very vividly, from different programs. But – and both good and bad, but there was no, like – I basically, going into the harder stuff, I would think of, like, one correction or one, like, key thing. But I wasn’t really thinking that much except, like no matter – even from when I was like really, really young, like with the way our programs used to be set up in long, like you would do your little schlepy footwork sequence, that was the last thing in your program, and you would do a spin, and like, that’s it. And I always remember, like getting halfway through the last step sequence and being like, “oh, thank God it’s almost over!” Like…

Jenny: Relief!

Tim: Yeah! No, you’re like – ah! Even if it was bad, it was like – all right, it’s almost, like, we’re almost there. We’re twenty seconds out, we’re ten seconds out. Like, don’t fall on your face, like we’re almost there.

Jenny: Just get off the ice in one piece.

Tim: Exactly. I always remember, like the last sort of, the last footwork sequence. But I remember, like, random, like really bizarre random things. Like at Nations Cup one year, I don’t know, were you ever at that rink? You were at that rink.

Jenny: I was, yeah, one year.

Tim: Where the athletes section, you basically like have your chin on the boards. Do you remember that? It’s this little piddly thing in like the lefty lutz corner, and you’re basically sitting under the judges podium, and you’re like sitting there with your chin on the thing. And I remember skating into my combination in my short program, and I like, looked right at Barbara Fusar-Poli. And she kind of looked back at me, and she was like – uh… you’re…

Jenny: Cecause they don’t expect you to make eye contact! Tim: Yeah, no, because she like came up to me afterwards, and she was like – you absolutely scared the crap out of me. She was like, “what were you thinking?” And I remember, I was like, you know, I was like, oh, she’s there! And quad sal-triple toe. Both hands down. I did basically like a – and that’s all I remember.

Jenny: Like a faceplant, yeah.

Tim: Yeah, I know. I did like – it was like, it was one of those, it was like…

Jenny: You were back-bowing to her.

Tim: It was really lovely. But yeah, just random, stupid, stupid things.

Dave: One thing we were wondering about is, you know, you talk about your body, you know, the injuries mounting up. How hard is it to come back? We’ve seen that Evan Lysacek and Johnny Weir are both, you know, attempting comebacks. Johnny had issues in his comeback whether it’s injuries, you know, we don’t know. But he didn’t look like the same skater. Evan has had a groin injury. We know that he is someone that trains to the death. So how tough do you think it is to come back, and how do you think it will be tough, you know, for each of them knowing them as skaters and as people?

Tim: Evan definitely over-trains, so I’m not at all surprised that he’s injured. But again, it’s why he was as consistent as he was. I think especially for the men, there’s a much shorter shelf life than there used to be. I mean, Todd was competing as well in the thirties as he was at 22. You throw a quad in there – no. I – 25, 25 I think is pushing it, and if you take – if you take off even, say, six months and aren’t doing your full set of triples and/or quads, I – like even from the say call it the three or four months I was off after – when did I not go to worlds, was it like 2004?

Jenny: 2004.

Dave: 2004, it was 2004.

Tim: Like, I firmly believe that it takes six weeks to get back to where you were for every month that you were off. And I think because – especially someone like Evan who trained so much for so long, and had you know issues with injuries and all these different things, like – once you hit 25, 26, I don’t even know how old he is, but I just, I think he’s capable of doing it, but it becomes exponentially harder. Like, you just don’t bounce back like you do when you’re nineteen. You just don’t. I mean, it’s like…

Dave: So, you think he’ll be able to go through with it as someone who never really had a quad before, and now you really do need a quad to be competitive. Do you see him going through and actually competing? I mean, he’s someone who obviously likes to win, who trains to win.

Tim: Do I see him competing? Yes. Do I think he could go to nationals and win without a quad? I think he could do so pretty easily. I mean, like, the GOE’s alone on the stuff – I mean, if he’s executing up through a triple axel as well as he was while he was, you know, competing before, like - yeah, I mean in terms of like the quality and the speed and all that stuff, I think he could win nationals. I – I have a difficult time seeing him all of a sudden, at twenty-question-mark age, all of a sudden now consistently in a competition in a short and long program executing a quad. I don’t – you know, Todd Eldredge thought he could do the same thing, and it just didn’t happen. If you haven’t sort of carried that skill set through from when you’re a bit younger, I don’t think it’s a reality. I don’t think it’s impossible, but I don’t – it’s much harder to start adding things when 25, 26, or older than you are, than it is when you’re 19. I don’t necessarily believe that he can go out and do what he used to do to win over the course of the next year up until Sochi. I mean, if he can do it, that’s amazing and hats off to him. I just – I’ve never seen it happen before.

Dave: Now, why do you think that they’re coming back? Is it because there are no tours and they need to grasp whatever dollars there are left, or why have they both decided to come back? Tim: I think Johnny – well, I guess he’s officially not doing nationals, I don’t know.

Jenny: Yeah, I think he’s injured.

Tim: Yeah, I think he’s out.

Dave: He’s injured and touring.

Jenny: Injured slash touring…

Dave: Yes, injured slash touring.

Tim: Yes, and cooking, apparently.

Jenny: But not eating!

Tim: No, no, no. We don’t eat. We don’t eat. That’s silly. I think Johnny feels [audio cuts out] his potential, which I completely one hundred percent agree with. I don’t think he competed a full season to the best of his ability or actually anywhere close to it. He had moments where he was amazing, but I never felt like he competed a season that was worthy of his ability. I don’t have any idea why Evan would come back. He won the only thing that really you would come back to do. And I don’t necessarily think, you know, it’s a younger man’s game now. It’s just, I don’t think even if he goes back to Sochi and even if he has a quad, I don’t necessarily think it would be enough to win. So, for him, maybe he just really loves to train and compete. I – I find it very confusing that he would want to come back.

Jenny: Yeah, I would, too. And you were talking about Johnny. Some of my favorite memories from skating is when I toured with Champions on Ice, and I got to know you and Johnny. And that first season – you guys were pretty close, really close competitors in the US and internationally. But you guys were roommates, and I don’t think people may have known that. So, how did that come to be? Because usually, on tour, you don’t room with a close competitor. And what is the real Johnny Weir like? Because it seems like after 2010, his personality just blossomed, and he became this figure on Twitter and this just larger than life personality. Is that a correct representation of the Johnny that you woke up in a hotel room with for many months, for years on end?

Tim: I think, honestly, and I – Johnny and I haven’t really been in all that close of contact since we were living together on tour. When we were on tour, we had a lot of fun.

Jenny: Yeah, I remember you guys were like always together!

Tim: It was a lot of fun. And you know, it’s like – it’s one of those things where like, yes, we were very close competitors, but it’s like – I was very much, like, I’m gonna just go and do my job and you’re gonna do your job, whatever. Like, we always got along fine. I kind of felt the same way about Plushenko, like, or Yagudin. Yagudin and I roomed together a couple times on tour. Like, we – there’s a mutual respect. We got along well, like, we were, honestly, we were never in the room all that much. We were together a lot, but like, you know when you roll into the hotel at like two in the morning, it’s like – all right, take a shower and go to bed. I feel like, you know. I don’t know – it just, I feel now to some extent that he’s kind of become too wrapped up in his own, like persona, and it’s almost like he’s become a caricature of himself. And again, like, we’re really not that close anymore. I don’t – like when I see him, the few times that I do see him, like, when I interact with him, he’s completely the same. But like, his – the way he is outwardly, especially in the press, I don’t – I think it’s almost an act a little bit, or like, it’s almost for shock value, because I don’t think that some of the things he says or does that people think are so outrageous are really him. I think it’s more – I think it really is just about shock value and attention, to some extent. Like, that whole any press is good press. I think he’s kind of bought into that maybe a little bit too much. Dave: Now, what is the Johnny Weir wardrobe and makeup counter look like on tour? Was he wearing the crazy outfits as much then, or you know, what was the touring life like? I mean, maybe he didn’t have the same money back then, so what was it really [audio is choppy] clothes?

Tim: There was no space on the bathroom counter. Jen, you can attest to this. There were – like, I literally could not put a toothbrush on. It was really quite funny.

Jenny: Yeah, I think he had his own wheely bag of just facial creams and hair products.

Tim: Yes. He will never age, like…

Jenny: The skin is like…

Tim: He literally has a million dollar face because he’s probably put that much La Mere on it.

Jenny: Uh-huh!

Tim: Granted, his skin looks great.

Jenny: Really great!

Tim: Like his skin always looks great. The clothing situation was for all of us on tour completely unruly. I mean, we came – people were like, “oh, are you moving?” Uh, no, I’m gonna be gone for three weeks. But, you know, with touring, it’s like – yeah, you know, one day you’re in Pheonix and it’s hot, and then the next day you’re in like Seattle, and it’s forty-five degrees and pouring rain.

Jenny: And you never know when you’re gonna get Roger to do your laundry.

Tim: Exactly! So like you literally had to be prepared for everything.

Dave: Were there boas around your hotel room, like everywhere?

Tim: There were – not so much that, there were definitely something – there were a lot of scarves. That was also the – it was a [audio cuts out] time…

Jenny: Lot of Von Dutch hats at the time.

Tim: Yes, I was just about to say, it was a very unfortunate time in the US fashion world, where Von Dutch was considered acceptable. And he, and actually, Jen, I think you may have been guilty yourself.

Jenny: Totally guilty!

Tim: I just thought they were the worst things ever. I called them “trailer chic” because they were not cheap! They were expensive.

Jenny: I think he – didn’t he have a hat with a rooster on it, and it said “cock,” or was that you?

Tim: Yes, that was – no, that was him, that was him. It was not a big hat – well, because I had the big, poofy hair! So I couldn’t wear hats! I mean, they probably would have been stuck to my head like Velcro!

Part VIII

Tim: There were a lot of scarves, though. Like he had that Fenny F. F. interlinking thing. He had it in every collar in every possible combination – gray and white, white and black, blue, brown and red, like it was like, it was – I was amazed that they made that many variations on a theme. Lots of Louis Vuitton bags. Lot of [audio cuts out].

Dave: Well, you talk about, you know, life with your competitors, and knowing them, and then coming back at an advanced age. What the heck do you make of Plushenko, you know, winning his I think tenth national title the other day, you know, doing two quads in a long program. What do you make about him coming back for, you know, almost his fifth Olympic cycle now?

Tim: I don’t understand how his body is still in one piece. I really don’t. Like, he and I started doing quads at the exact same time. We started training them both when we were thirteen. I – like, the idea of me going out and rotated a double jump at this time in my life is just horrifying, and like, I would be scared to death. I don’t know how he’s been able to maintain. It’s…

Dave: He had spine surgery!

Tim: It’s freakish! I don’t know – first of all, I don’t know where you would find the inner drive to continue to train a long program. I could go out and train and do triple jumps and do an exhibition program, fine. But like, taking on learning and choreographing and training a new long program is mentally – it’s a lot to take on. And to continue to do that for like – how long has he been senior? His first senior worlds was what?

Dave: ’98.

Tim: Yeah. I mean, like, come on!

Jenny: Fifteen years!

Tim: I can’t even – like, it just, it amazes me, but I’m also like – dude, why? Like, let an – and he just, even though he’s doing things, he never, to me, has looked as strong as he did from like 2002 to 2006. Like, he does things, but they’re not as pretty. There’s not as much flow, he’s not as dynamic. I just – I don’t see, like – he’s won everything that there is to win, and let’s face it, he’s not getting a whole lot better. So, like, I don’t truly – I don’t understand the motivation to go on.

Jenny: Well, it seems like you really made a point after the 2006 season to transition to school. You wanted to get your education, and you were taking classes at Loyola I think for a bit when you were training in El Segundo. And I’ve talked to so many skaters who just struggle with that transition of leaving competitive skating no matter what level they’re at, particularly now that there really is no tour to go on. And then – what’s next? How do they get… so how are you able to make that transition just so well? And what role did education play in your life while you were a skater, and how prepared were you for life after skating?

Tim: Well, I think the main thing – two main things. My parents always put a big priority on school. Like, skating was a privilege, skating was something I did, but had my grades not been very good, I would not have continued to skate.

Jenny: And you went to public school, correct?

Tim: I did, yeah. Yeah. And the other thing that Carol had set up which was very helpful is that she had come to an arrangement with the school district that ____ was in, and we would go to school for our academic classes only. So I would go, for example, I would go to like two academic classes in the morning, and then I would go to the rink for two to three hours, sometimes longer, and then take the remainder of my academic classes in the afternoon. So, even though I was going to a quote unquote “normal school” and I was going full-time, like, I was doing all the normal academic stuff. Like, I was taking all AP classes, I was doing a pretty rigorous academic program, but I didn’t have, you know, lunch or music or like, basket weaving or all those other nonsense [audio cuts out] six hours a day, you know. Really, you have your English, your math, your science, your – a history, maybe, I don’t know. There was other – [inaudible] and stuff. But I think that made it a lot easier because it was like – it was always a priority when I was growing up. I actually kind of missed going to school when I was training, but it was like – it was impossible, I mean, as you know. Like, it was all we could do to get ourselves, drag ourselves through a day and go home, and sometimes you’re even too tired to eat dinner. You just want to go to bed.

Jenny: You’re laying on the couch at 6 PM like – is it ten o’clock yet so I can go to sleep?

Tim: Yeah, and you’re like, it’s still light out and you’re exhausted. But – and I think also one thing that really helped sort of push me out the door and close the skating chapter was my last year was so horrifically bad in terms of – in terms of results, in terms of how I felt about how I had skated, and like – I mean I really, as miserable as training was, at that point for a multitude of reasons, I really enjoyed my time with Audrey. But she was more of a therapist than a coach at that point. But like, the last, especially from November through nationals, like, the alarm would go off in the morning and I would cry. Like, how can I go to the rink and do this? I hated skating at that point. I absolutely hated it.

Jenny: And I think that’s so – I don’t mean to interrupt – but a lot of skaters at the top level, people don’t realize it becomes a chore sometimes, even when you’re at the peak of your career. I just think that’s interesting, people don’t really understand.

Tim: Exactly, and it’s not even the physical necessarily, it’s the mental. It’s like, oh, my God, like, I’ve done, you know – like, Friday rolls around, and you’re like – okay, well, so this week, let’s look back. Umm, yeah, all my programs on Monday sucked. Umm, basically everything on Tuesday I was, like, basically stealing oxygen from the other skaters. Okay, that was great. I was like, Wednesday was painful. So you like, look back at your week, and you’re like, “I feel like I worked really hard and basically undid progress.” And so at that point, it was – training was so miserable, and, like, both physically and emotionally painful. There was like – okay, I’ve gotta find something else to do, I’ve gotta get out. And having very successful and having such a quick demise, basically. I mean, I went from like being on the world podium to like not even finishing in the top ten two years later. So, I think to have a lot of success and to pretty much fail, or like in terms of what I had done before fail, made it very easy. I think the danger is for when people are kind of – you know, they do well, you know, they’re in the top five, they’re in the top six, they’re kind of like – they’re almost on the world team, they’re almost kind of. It’s always like – oh, this person’s moved on, this person’s retired, next year’s my year. And they get caught in that cycle whereas, like, if you’re really good and then you’re really not, it’s very easy, because you’re like – you know, I’ve done all I can do, it’s done. But I think when you’re kind of sort of in there and you’re hanging in and doing well, like you’re going and you’re getting fourth or fifth in the senior Grand Prix, and people think that you’re like, you know, “oh, if he would only land this or she would put in a triple-triple, it’s gonna be her year next year.” I think that’s when it gets really tough because logically, it could be. Like, you could add that one thing, or you could add that spark or that sort of like breakout moment where you become kind of your own thing.

Jenny: So, it seems like your advice is to just to listen to yourself. It’s something you really were able to do and it came easier to you because you could see your time in skating was on the decline, and you had this plan. But for those other skaters, I think what you said was so poignant, that sometimes you can listen to that buzz around you, too. And maybe you know in your gut you’re best days are behind you. But whenever it’s telling you – you just need that one breakout performance. And then when it doesn’t happen, you think, “oh, my gosh, I just wasted two more years of my life waiting for that.”

Tim: Yeah, and I think – it’s tough, and then you – but then you – then on the flip side of that, you also feel like you kind of need to keep going to redeem yourself or to kind of like prove that you had it in you. And then you get stuck in your own cycle, because, it’s like – and I think oftentimes, too, and I’ve seen it many times, and I know you’ve seen it in the different training centers that you’ve been in as well. It’s like, when a coach doesn’t necessarily have someone on top, they will convince you that you should stick it out for one more year. And I think a lot of it – I, certainly not with coaches that I worked with, but definitely things that I’ve seen where the coaches are encouraging the kids to stay in, and by aiding them with false hope and be selfishly because they wanna go to nationals. You know, they want to have a seat at that table. And I think the – I think it would probably, I’ve never done this, I have never, you know, taught someone at a very high competitive level. But I think the most important thing you can do as a coach is to have that difficult conversation and be like, “look, in my opinion, I don’t feel that, you know, you’re going to continue to improve. I feel like, at least in my opinion, you’ve accomplished everything that you’re capable of doing. You’ve, you know, you’ve hit your maximum potential, and you know, there’s not really a lot more that you can do.” Like, if someone had done that for me in 2004, it would have saved me two years of like, pain and misery for me. So, and – like, at some level, I’m sure that I knew I was on the decline, but like, when you’re in it, it’s – you don’t realize it or you won’t accept it, or you, in many cases you can’t. I just couldn’t accept it, and I think it’s a coach’s responsibility more than anything is to be supportive and to be like, you know, look, like – you’ve had some injuries, it’s been a rough, you haven’t really had a great competition this time. Like, had I told Audrey at nationals in St. Louis that I was going to continue to compete, she would have probably sat me down and been like, “that’s probably not the best use of the next ten miles of your life.” And I think she would have done it for me. And I think, obviously, that’s a horribly difficult conversation to have because you’re basically saying, like, “hey, it’s over.”

Jenny: Right, you’re throwing water at somebody’s dreams.

Tim: Exactly, which is like a terrible thing to do at the time. But I think the long run, it would have saved a lot of our peers a lot of, like, mental and physical anguish. And I think coaches need to be a little more in tune to that.

Part IX

Dave: All right. Well, leaving on a fun note, we wanted to play a little game with you. We want to say a name and just have you tell us the first thing that comes to your mind when you hear this name.

Tim: I’m gonna pretend that we don’t have the best connection, and there might be…

Jenny: No! You have to be completely honest. First thing that comes to your head.

Dave: Michael Weiss.

Tim: Great show skater.

Jenny: Okay. Todd Eldredge.

Tim: Best triple axel.

Dave: Alexei Yagudin.

Tim: Oh, he was the best. The best.

Jenny: You are so positive. I’m very surprised. Okay. Evan Lysacek.

Tim: Consistent.

Dave: Evgeni Plushenko.

Tim: Arrogant.

Jenny: Mm, good. Johnny Weir.

Tim: Lazy. Sorry, Johnny. Pardon?

Dave: Pasha Grishuk. Tim: Crazy, but in the good way.

Jenny: Very good way. Dick Button.

Tim: Vindictive.

Jenny: Hmm. Carol Heiss Jenkins.

Tim: Oh, wow. God, there’s so many.

Jenny: The words just keep flowing!

Tim: Caring. Caring. She was really, truly one hundred percent caring about all of her students. Caring.

Dave: Tonia Kwiatkowski.

Tim: Ah, sad. Honestly, like, sad in a sense of – not sad as a person, but, like, it was sad to watch her train so well and never achieve what I felt she was capable of.

Jenny: It was tough in 1998, getting fourth.

Tim: Oh, God, that was…

Jenny: Bobek had the skate of her life. I don’t think people really expected that.

Tim: She sure did, with her fan-kick triple lutz take off, like – love that thing! Love it!

Jenny: And finally, Tatiana Tarasova.

Tim: Oh, fabulous.

Jenny: Fabulous. I love it, fabulous. Thank you so much, Tim for taking so much time with us. We really appreciate it.

Tim: It was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun.

Jenny: It was fun, and best of luck with your life outside of – off the ice, and all your future endeavors. We love you, you’re great.

Tim: Thank you, thank you so much.

Dave: We’d obviously like to thank Tim Goebel for all of his time and insight today.

Jenny: We’d also like to thank Kevin Kwasneski for our amazing graphics. And if you have any questions, anything you’d want to talk to us about, shoot us an e-mail at [email protected].

Dave: As always, we’d like to thank you for tuning in and remind you to hold an edge…

Together: And look sexy. Bye, guys!