razgovarali fotografije photographs by © Odile Decq Benoit Cornette(ODBC) interviewed by © ODBC Stéphane Couturier (SC) © ODBC Roland Halbe (RH) © ODBC Luigi Filetici (LF) © ODBC Georges Fessy (GF) © ODBC/LABTOP (L) portreti portraits Raphael Lugassy Ante Nikša Bilić Alan Kostrenčić

Arhitektura Architecture kao jedrenje as Sailing

¶ Pariz u proljeće. Doduše vrlo kišno proljeće, međutim šarm ¶Paris in the springtime. Regardless of the rain, the charm of Pariza neodoljiv je i uz mokre cipele. Penjući se uz stepenice Paris is irresistible despite wet shoes. Climbing the stairs of a dvorišne zgrade čije je golemo potkrovlje preuređeno u arhi­ courtyard building to a huge loft turned into an architectural tektonski studio, dojam je bliži odlasku na tulum na ne­poznatoj studio, the impression is similar to ascending towards a party at adresi… Pomalo derutno stubište, kao i sav prostor doimlju se an unknown address... The somewhat decrepit staircase, as well prilično Goth Chic, najavljujući potencijalno neo­bičnu avanturu. as the space itself, leaves an impression of Goth Chic, presaging Odile Decq svakako ne pripada stereotipu europskog arhitekta, a potentially unusual adventure. Odile Decq definitely does duhovita, srdačna, ali izuzetno pronicljiva, posvetila nam je puna not belong to the stereotype of the European architect; she is tri sata izuzetno zanimljiva razgovora. Uz tipičan pariški šarm, witty, cordial, but extremely shrewd. She also dedicated a full Odile je poput njene arhitekture i umjetnosti, uvijek na rubu three hours to us and to a quite interesting interview. Beside između ekstravagancije i promišljene jednostavnosti. Unatoč her Parisian charm, Odile Decq is, like her architecture and art, darkerskom looku, njena vedrina i optimizam, uz vrlo jasnu always between extravaganza and deliberate simplicity. Despite svijest o realnosti, najbolje su sublimirane u njenoj komparaciji the Goth look, her glee and optimism, with a clear awareness of ‒ arhi­tektura je kao jedrenje. To upućuje na mogućnost neke reality, are best captured in her idea of architecture as sailing. It radosnije arhitekture koja poput jedrenja proizlazi iz napora i evokes the possibility of a happier architecture, resulting from lakoće, prkošenja i suradnje između čovjeka i prirode. U ovom effort and ease, defiance and collaboration between man and vremenu krize čini se da ta jednostavna poruka sadrži puno nature, just like architecture. In these times of crisis, it seems mudrosti. this message conveys much wisdom.

Razgovarali u Parizu 25. travnja 2012. Interviewed in Paris 25 April 2012

Odile Decq

8 Odile Decq oris, number 77, year 2012 Odile Decq, Intervju Odile Decq, Interview 9 ORIS — Možda možemo početi s Vašim posljednjim projektom. ORIS — Maybe we can start with your latest project. We Restoran Fantom u operi Posjetili smo ga po dolasku u Pariz i oduševili se vidjevši uživo visited it on our arrival in Paris and it is fascinating, when you Garnier, Pariz, Francuska, 2010. kako je elegantno uklopljen u sam delikatni kontekst poznate see it in person, how elegantly it is incorporated in the very pariške operne kuće Palais Garnier. Arhitektonski je to vrlo the delicate context of Paris’s famous opera house, the Palais Phantom Restaurant of smjela gesta, ali je istovremeno izvedeno s mnogo poštovanja Garnier. It is architecturally a very daring gesture, but at the the Palais Garnier, Paris, France, 2010 i razumijevanja za povijesnu zgradu natopljenu sjećanjima. same time it is done with a lot of respect and understanding Možete li nam reći kako je započeo taj projekt i kako ste for a historical building impregnated with memory. Could (RH) dobili ideju? ¶ ODILE DECQ — Čudna je to priča, jer sam poziv you tell us something about how this project started and primila na putu, tijekom vikenda, jednog od rijetkih u godini how you came up with the idea? ¶ ODILE DECQ — This is a kad putujem u Bretagnu. Bila sam na plaži kad je zazvonio very strange story, because I received a call when away on a telefon. Netko me pitao jesam li zainteresirana raditi restoran weekend, one of my only weekends that I take every year to u Palais Garnier. Bio je to čovjek koji je imao sastanak s jednim go to Britanny, so I was on the beach when I received a call. mojim klijentom u Lyonu. Gledao je neke modele raznih pro­ Somebody was asking me whether I was interested in doing jekata koje je moj klijent dobio od različitih arhitekata i onda se the restaurant in the Palais Garnier. It was somebody who had raspitao za moj projekt te o meni. Sreli smo se nakon tri dana i had a meeting with one of my clients in Lyon. He was looking pokazao mi je ograničenja Ministarstva kulture; ništa se nije at some models from many different projects my client had smjelo dirati, izvana je trebalo očuvati prozirnost, bez fasade from different architects, and he asked the client about my unutar lukova, i tako je počelo. Kad sam dobila nacrte, prva je model and who I was. We met three days later and he gave ideja bila između lukova napraviti prozore, kad je već fasada me all the constraints from the Ministry or Culture, not to bila zabranjena, izvesti zakrivljeni stakleni zid iza fasadnih touch anything, to keep the transparency from the outside, lukova. Mislila sam da to možemo izvesti s vrlo prozirnim not to have the façade inside the arches but something else, staklom, poput novog omotača koji gotovo da ne postoji. I and that’s how it started. The first idea when I received the tako je počelo. Nakon toga sam zbog visine – prostor je visok site plans was, since it was forbidden to do the façade, to do osam metara, a mi smo željeli da staklena membrana ide sve windows in the arches, to have this glass wall curve behind the do stropa – nacrtala sinusoidu stakla, kako bi bez dodatnog façade arches. I was thinking if we could do that, we could do učvršćenja dosegla tu visinu. Tako je proces počeo od te prve it with very clear glass and we could make this new envelope ideje valovite staklene fasade iza postojećih stupova. almost non-existent. And this is how it started. After that, ORIS — Oduvijek me oduševljavalo kako u svojim projektima because of the height – the space is eight metres high, and we spajate vrlo umjetnički i provokativan pristup s jednostavnim wanted the glass membrane to go continuously to the ceiling i logičnim rješenjem arhitektonskog problema. Možda se – I drew a sinuous line of glass, to make it reach that height možemo, za ilustraciju Vašeg načina razmišljanja, vratiti malo without additional support. It was really a process started kroz vrijeme i na početak Vašeg rada. Počeli ste u vrijeme kad from this first idea of an undulating glass façade behind the je Dekonstrukcija bila glavna tema arhitektonskog diskursa. existing columns. ¶ ODILE DECQ — Čak i prije toga. ORIS — I’m always amazed how you put together in your ORIS — Možete li usporediti svoja razmišljanja kad ste po­ projects a very artistic and provocative approach and on činjali i svoj pristup danas? Je li se što promijenilo? ¶ ODILE the other hand quite a simple and logical solution to the DECQ — Mnogo toga. Kad sam počinjala u osamdesetima, architectural problems. Maybe, as an illustration of your way of bilo je to vrijeme kad je Richard Meyer bio posvuda. Bilo je thinking, we can move back through time a little and towards to vrijeme kasnog modernizma i to smo mi u uredu pratili, the beginning of your work. You actually started in a time pokušavajući pronaći način kako da počnemo s radom na svoj when Deconstruction was a topical theme in architectural način. ¶ U to se vrijeme pojavila Dekonstrukcija i to mi je bilo discourse... ¶ ODILE DECQ — Even before that. mnogo zanimljivije jer je to bio pristup kako dekomponirati. ORIS — Can you compare your thinking when you started and U svom sam radu analizirala dekomponiranje komponenti your approach today? Has it changed? ¶ ODILE DECQ — A lot. projekta, programa ili nečeg drugog uz ponovnu artikulaciju When I started in the 1980s, it was really a time when Richard na novi način, to je bila moja metoda dekonstrukcije. Kad Meyer was everywhere. It was the time of late modernism and smo počeli raditi na Banque Populaire, koji je bio naš prvi we were looking at that in the office, trying to find a way how veliki projekt, počeli smo s glavnim holom kao objektom to start the work by ourselves. ¶ At that time Deconstruction

10 oris, broj 77, godina 2012 oris, number 77, year 2012 Odile Decq, Intervju Odile Decq, Interview 11 Banque Populaire Ovako kako danas gradim, to je vrlo profinjeno što se gradnje Homéostasie de l’Ouest, Rennes, tiče, detalja, osmišljavanja zgrade, ali je istovremeno sve (Dinamični ekvilibrij), Francuska, 1991. Pariz, Francuska, fluidno, manje vidljivo, na neki način. Jutros sam bila u Lyonu 2007., Galerie Polaris Banque Populaire de jer ondje gradimo vrlo jednostavnu zgradu, samo dva kvadra, l’Ouest, Rennes, jedan se pomiče prema obali rijeke. No, kako bismo postigli Homéostasie (Dynamic France, 1991 da su četiri kata izmaknuta jedan iznad drugog, moramo Equilibrium), Paris, France, 2007, Galerie (SC) imati golemu konstrukciju koja je doista složena. To je više Polaris kao most ili gradnja infrastrukture. Objekt je jednostavan, ali je zaista složen što se tiče konstrukcije, načina na koji (ODBC) gradimo dvostruku fasadu i tako dalje. Zanimljiv je Musée des Confluences na drugoj strani poluotoka u Lyonu koji gradi Coop Himmelb(l)au. Vidimo kako se podiže konstrukcija, jutros smo gledali. Vrlo je jednostavna, a objekt će biti vrlo složen. To je posve suprotno od onoga što ja radim. Moje zgrade izgledaju jednostavno, a imaju složene strukture, a drugi je način složenost onoga što vidite na jednostavnoj konstrukciji. ORIS — Lebbeus Woods jednom je rekao da je arhitektura antigravitacija. Vaš rad uspoređuju s objektima u zraku, a ne na tlu. ¶ ODILE DECQ — U potpunosti se slažem da se arhitektura čitavo vrijeme bori protiv gravitacije i sviđa mi se ta ideja. Koristim to u predavanjima. Pokušavam se sve više oteti gravitaciji. Izgradili smo jedan objekt 2007. godine u umjetničkoj galeriji u ovom kvartu Pariza. Objekt je nastao iz izvan zgrade. Nakon toga, polako tijekom rada na projektu, appeared, and this was much more interesting to me, because skice koju sam nacrtala za ljude u svom studiju, pod nazivom one, the budget was not so high that you could decompose ponovno smo integrirali hol unutar zgrade jer smo mislili it was an approach of how to decompose. It was analyzed Dinamični ekvilibrij, gdje postoje dva suprotna utega s crtom a building. But at the same time we were trying to find a way da u to vrijeme Francuzi nisu bili spremni za projekte in my work at that time, of decomposing the components i potporom u jednoj točki. Sve je stabilno, međutim potrebno to slide or dislocate an entrance in a building. It was a way we dekonstrukcije. Francuska je zemlja monolitnih projekata. of a project, components of a programme, components of je vrlo malo da postane nestabilno. Za mene je gravitacija were really discussing how to conceive the BPO. After that Zbog te tendencije ka monolitnoj klasičnoj arhitekturi something, and rearticulating them in a way, so it was my stabilnost. Volim kad se arhitektura doima nestabilnom, kao building, we were qualified in France as hi-tech, because of arhitekti su uvijek gradili ulaze u središtu simetričnih zgrada; way of deconstruction. When we started working on Banque da će svaki čas otići, odletjeti ili slično. the structural system of the façade that we worked on with bila je to tradicija u Francuskoj, čak i u modernizmu. Doduše, Populaire, the first major project we did, we started by working ORIS — Vaš lanjski projekt Anisotropy u Los Angelesu vrlo je Peter Rice. We were really looking at the development of all Le Corbusier je radio nešto drukčije, ali više kao iznimku nego on the main hall as an object outside the building. After that, zanimljiv eksperiment osjetilnog iskustva i dezorijentacije. these hi-tech in buildings in Great Britain. After some years pravilo. U to vrijeme mi smo mislili da nismo klasičari, nismo slowly through the process of working on the project, we Smatram ga posebno zanimljivim jer se odmiče od arhitekture of working on these details and construction, when I started radili simetriju, više nas je zanimao dezekvilibrij i asimetrija, reintegrated the hall inside the building, because we thought objekta ka iskustvenoj arhitekturi, arhitekturi kao iskustvu. working, for example in Rome, I was always saying to the graditi nešto poput prolaza, ili nešto s prijelazom i tako dalje... at that time people in France were not ready for deconstructive Možete li nam ispričati kako je projekt počeo i koje su Vam office that we were no longer in the time of hi-tech. I would Ali, na kraju smo izveli monolitni projekt jer je zaista bio projects. France is a country of monolithic projects. Because bile namjere? ¶ ODILE DECQ — Objekt ove instalacije trebao prefer soft-tech – being very high technology without training, potreban kao takav, budžet nije bio dovoljan za dekompoziciju of this tendency of a long process of monolithic classical je apsolutno poremetiti percepciju prostora, ostavljajući without the need to demonstrate that outside. It’s how I zgrade. No, u isto vrijeme pokušavali smo naći načina kako architecture, architects were always building a symmetrical dojam­ bivanja negdje drugdje ili kao da postoji neki drugi build now, it’s really sophisticated in terms of construction, bismo pomakli ili dislocirali ulaz u zgradu. Poanta je bila da entrance in the centre of a symmetrical building, it was really prostor koji zapravo ne postoji, ali ga vidite kao odraz na in terms of detail, in terms of conceiving a building, but at smo zaista diskutirali kako osmisliti BPO. Nakon te zgrade traditional in France, even in modernism. Well, Le Corbusier zidovima. Igrajući se s nagibom reflektirajućih zidova i zi­ the same time, everything is fluid, everything is less shown, u Francuskoj su nas kvalificirali kaohi-tech , zbog sustava did something a bit different, but more as an exception than dova koji se zrcale jedan u drugom, a nisu nagnuti na isti in a way. This morning I was in Lyons, because we are building strukturalne fasade na kojem smo radili u suradnji s Peterom a rule. At this time, we were thinking we were not classical, način, apsolutno iskrivljavate percepciju. Volim tu ideju. Već a very simple building, with just two parallelepipeds, one is Riceom. Pratili smo razvoj tog hi-techa u Velikoj Britaniji. we were not doing symmetry, we were much more interested nekoliko tjedana razmišljam o tome jer se ne radi samo o shifting; one is going away to the river bank. But to have this Nakon nekoliko godina rada na tim detaljima i gradnji, kad in the question of disequilibrium, dissymmetry, having diskusiji, nego o instalaciji koju sam prošlog rujna postavila part, which is four floors cantilevered above each other, we sam počela raditi, na primjer u Rimu, govorila sam u uredu something much more like a passage, or something with a u jednoj umjetničkoj galeriji u Parizu, s istom temom ogle­ have to have a huge structure that is really complicated. It is da više nismo u hi-tech dobu. Draži mi je bio soft-tech, što transition and so on... But in the end, we did a monolithic dala koja mijenjaju percepciju prostora. Sad to sve više ra­ much more like a bridge or the construction of infrastructure. znači vrlo visoka tehnologija, bez potrebe da se pokaže na van. project, because it was really necessary to have a monolithic dim, bavim se umjetnošću, ali ovog trena to ne unosim u It’s a very simple object, but it’s really complex in terms of

12 oris, broj 77, godina 2012 oris, number 77, year 2012 Odile Decq, Intervju Odile Decq, Interview 13 projekte. Možda na neki način toga ima u projektima, ali structure, the way we build the façade with a double-skin and Paviljon 8 i restoran jednostavnije i minimalnije. Nedavno sam se pitala kako so on. It is interesting, on the other side of the peninsula in Archipel, Lyon, Francuska, 2007. – (u mogu ono što znam o umjetnosti vratiti u arhitekturu. Na Lyons, Coop Himmelb(l)au have started to build the Musée izgradnji), renderi primjer, za dva mjeseca u Rennesu otvaramo FRAC, možda des Confluences. We see the structure going up, we were ste to vidjeli na internetskim stranicama. To je crni volumen looking at it this morning. The structure is really simple, and Pavillion 8 and s urezom u sredini, a iznutra je prostor nevjerojatan. Dan the object is going to be very complicated. It’s exactly the Archipel restaurant, Lyon, France, 2007 – nakon otvaranja otvorit ćemo izložbu u umjetničkoj galeriji opposite of what I do. My building looks very simple with a (under construction), u Rennesu. Sadržavat će neke dijelove s te zgrade. Ideja je very complex structure, and the other one is very complex in renderings vidjeti što radim i vratiti se arhitekturi. Neobično je tako terms of what you see, but the structure is very simple. (L) raditi na dvije različite razine. Jednom sam to već napravila ORIS — Lebbeus Woods once said that architecture is anti- krajem 1980-ih. Izradili smo modele koje smo nazvali Ma­ gravity. Your work is compared with objects in the air, not quette Invraisemblable. Bila je to zbirka od deset maketa objects on the ground. ¶ ODILE DECQ — I totally agree that koje smo izradili s obzirom na projekte tijekom osamdesetih. architecture is fighting against gravity all the time, and I love Izgledali su poput slika na zidu, ali su bili 3D modeli i izradili that idea. I use it in my lectures. I’m trying to escape gravity smo ih na istoj crnoj površini. Izražavali smo koncept tih more and more. We built an object in an art gallery in this projekata. Sjećam se jednog modela za stambenu zgradu area of Paris in 2007. The object derived from a sketch I koji je sadržavao perspektivu s pločnika blizu zgrade, on je drew for the people in my office called Dynamic Equilibrium, poslužio za formiranje same zgrade. Nadalje, za jedan drugi where you have two opposite weights with a line and one natječaj, iskoristili smo tu maketu na lokaciji i rekli: ‘OK, sad point of support and you have something which is stable, but ćemo izgraditi ovakvu zgradu.’ Vrlo je neobično napraviti neki at the same time it needs almost nothing to make it unstable. koncept da se izrazi projekt i poslije iskoristiti taj koncept kao Gravity for me is stability. I like to give the impression that stvarnu stambenu zgradu. Odnedavno stvarno razmišljam o architecture is unstable or that it could go, fly off or do tome kako da moju umjetnost vratim u arhitekturu. something.

14 oris, broj 77, godina 2012 oris, number 77, year 2012 Odile Decq, Intervju Odile Decq, Interview 15 ORIS — Kako je počeo Vaš interes za umjetnost? ¶ ODILE ORIS — Your project Anisotropy for Los Angeles made ORIS — Kako Vam se to sviđa i kako se to odražava na Vaš rad ORIS — How did your interest in art start? ¶ ODILE DECQ — DECQ — Počelo je od samog početka jer sam dvije godine last year is a very interesting experiment with sensory u uredu? ¶ ODILE DECQ — To su dva posla s punim radnim It started from the very beginning, because I was studying studirala povijest umjetnosti, prije arhitekture. Kad sam experience and state disorientation. I find it of particular vremenom, i to sve govori. U proteklih pet godina nisam imala history of art for two years before I studied architecture. bila mlada djevojka, nisam bila sigurna mogu li se baviti interest because it makes a shift from object-architecture to vremena ni za što zbog dva posla. Ubuduće ću pratiti kako When I was a young girl, I was not sure whether I could arhitekturom budući da sam djevojka. Otkrila sam da se experienced architecture, architecture as experience. Can you će se stvari odvijati jer je biti dekan zaista poseban posao. do architecture since I was a girl. I discovered I could go mogu upisati na studij, položila prijemni i nakon toga postala tell us something about how this project started and what Netko mi je jednom rekao: ‘Znaš, radit ćeš s dijelom mozga to the school of architecture, I passed the entry exam and arhitekt. U to vrijeme nije mnogo žena radilo kao arhitekti. your intention with it was? ¶ ODILE DECQ — The object of koji nikad prije nisi koristila.’ I to je istina jer otkriješ da je after that I became an architect. At that time, not too many Čak su mi i roditelji ponekad govorili da je to glupo, da nikad this installation was to disturb absolutely the perception of ravnati fakultetom nešto posve drukčije od podučavanja ili women were architects. These were the times when even neću biti arhitekt jer je to za ženu nemoguće. space, to give an impression of being somewhere else or an upravljanja uredom. Međutim, istovremeno ti daje vrlo važnu my parents were telling me it was stupid, that I would never ORIS — Postoji li ‘rodna arhitektura’? ¶ ODILE DECQ — Mislim impression that there is another space which doesn’t exist snagu jer stalno moraš objašnjavati što želiš i kamo želiš da be an architect because it was impossible for a woman to da ne. Postoji samo arhitektura koju rade razne osobe, bez but which you see in the reflection on the walls. By playing studij ide, moraš uvjeriti nastavnike, razgovarati s njima, be an architect. obzira na spol, ali ponekad kad to kažem, odgovore mi: ‘Da, with the obliquity of the walls and walls reflecting on each misliti o pedagogiji, koga pozvati da predaje. No, zanimljivo ORIS — Is there such a as ‘gender architecture’? ¶ ODILE znate, ali kad pažljivo pogledate ....’ To je tipično pitanje kad other, not inclined the same way, you distort absolutely the je u smislu razumijevanja što se događa u arhitekturi. Na DECQ — I don’t think so. There is just architecture done by žena daje intervju. Ja sam žena, pa što onda? (smije se) question of perception. I love that idea. It has posed me a početku ovih pet godina, korak po korak, otkrivala sam mlađu different persons, whatever the gender, but sometimes when I ORIS — Postavio sam to pitanje jer u zadnje vrijeme u disku­­ question for some weeks now, because it is not just to speak generaciju arhitekata, od 30 ili 40 godina koji rade apsolutno say that they tell me: ‘Yes, but you know, if you look carefully…’ sijama o arhitekturi sudjeluju i neke feminističke teoretičarke. about that, because I was thinking of this installation and I did drukčije. Na početku smo govorili o arhitektima zvijezdama, This question is typical when someone interviews a women ¶ ODILE DECQ — Znam, znam... Ali to me ne zanima. (smije se) an installation in an art gallery in Paris last September with ali se istovremeno pojavila nova generacija koja raste, uopće architect. I’m a woman, but so what? (laughs) ORIS — Ako se zadržimo na pitanju ženske arhitekture, the same question of having mirrors changing the perception ne razmišlja o zvijezdama, zainteresirana za socijalna pitanja ORIS — I asked you this question because in recent times nekako je logična usporedba između Zahe Hadid i Vas. of the space. I do that more and more now, working on art, u arhitekturi. Mislim da je to danas vrlo važno. Rade sa we have had some feminist theoreticians in architectural Postoje sličnosti, ali istovremeno i mnogo razlika. Započele but for the moment I don’t bring that back in my projects. zajednicama, poput Teddyja Cruza u San Diegu. Također sam discourse. ¶ ODILE DECQ — I know, I know… I’m not ste gotovo u isto vrijeme, u počecima Dekonstrukcije. Ono što Maybe, in a way, I use this in my projects and but more simply na fakultet pozvala jednoga mladog arhitekta iz Bombaja. interested in that. (laughs) je jednako tako zanimljivo jest da ste Vi otvarali svoj Muzej or minimally. I was asking myself this question very recently Pozivam sve više arhitekata iz ove kategorije jer mislim da je ORIS — If we stay on the female architect issue, somehow the suvremene umjetnosti u Rimu (MACRO) u isto vrijeme kad je of how I can bring what I do now in art back into architecture. to prava budućnost arhitekture: socijalna pitanja središnje su comparison between Zaha Hadid and you logically comes to Zaha otvarala Maxxi. ¶ ODILE DECQ — Bio je to velik problem For example, we will open the FRAC in Rennes in two months, pitanje arhitekture. mind. There is some similarity, but at the same time a lot of jer kad sam osvojila taj natječaj, to je bilo godinu dana nakon maybe you have seen it on our website, it’s a black volume ORIS — Problem javnog prostora povezan je i s ovim big differences. You started almost at the same time, in the što je Zaha osvojila MAXXI. U to se vrijeme nije zvao MAXXI, with a cut in the middle, and the space inside is incredible. društvenim aspektom. ¶ ODILE DECQ — Da, vratimo se wake of Deconstruction. What is also interesting is that you a moj se projekt nije zvao MACRO. Kad smo osvojili natječaj, The day after the opening, we will open an exhibition in an urbanim pitanjima. Naime, između osamdesetih i devedesetih opened your Museum of Contemporary Art in Rome (MACRO) počeli smo raditi s ravnateljem prvo na imenu. U suradnji s art gallery in Rennes. It will contain pieces coming from this arhitekti se nisu toliko bavili urbanim jer je to bilo vrijeme almost at the same time as Zaha was opening Maxxi. ¶ ODILE njim smo gradu predložili naziv MACRO ili Muzej suvremene building. My idea is to look at what I’m doing and go back to mnogih gradnji, kad se arhitekturu smatralo objektom. Mislim DECQ — And it was a big problem because when I won the umjetnosti u Rimu, i kad je to ime postalo javno, Zahin architecture. This is a strange way to work on these two very da je sad s tim gotovo. Sustav zvijezda zaista je bio negativna competition it was just one year after Zaha had won the Maxxi. je muzej nazvan MAXXI ili Muzej umjetnosti 21. stoljeća, different scales. I did it once before at the end of the 1980s. pojava u polju arhitekture. Uništavalo je samo ideju arhitekture It was not called Maxxi at the time, and my project was not naravno i zato jer je maksi veće od makro. I tako je počelo We did models we called ‘Maquette Invraisemblable’. It was jer se ona previše bavila objektima koje možete kupiti i uvesti called Macro. As soon as we won the competition, we started natjecanje. Ravnatelji su se natjecali i, što je još gore, to a collection of ten models we made after looking back on the kad i gdje želite, ali mislim da se arhitektura treba raditi samo working with the director on the name first. Together with je bilo 2010., Zaha je svoj muzej otvarala u svibnju, a moj projects we did in the 1980s. They were like paintings on the za jedno mjesto. Projektirate za jedno mjesto; ne možete him, we proposed the name ‘Macro’ to the city, meaning je ravnatelj odlučio istog dana održati ‘pred-otvaranje’. walls, but they were models, since they were in 3D, and we imati istu zgradu na mnogo različitih mjesta jer su kontekst i Museum of Contemporary Art in Rome, and as soon as this Možete li zamisliti dva otvaranja u isto vrijeme, natjecanje made them on the same black surface. We were expressing uvjeti lokacije vrlo važni. Tako ja mislim, i time se razlikujem name became known, Zaha’s museum was called Maxxi, oko prijema i svega? Novine i časopisi i svi ostali govorili su: the concept of the project in these models. I remember one od Hadidove, jer se arhitektura zasnovana na objektima može meaning Museum of Art of the 21st century, also because ‘Odile je rekla ovo, Zaha je rekla ono.’ Posvuda po novinama, model that we did for one of the housing buildings we were raditi bilo gdje. To može biti cipela, prsten ili nešto drugo, nije ‘maxi’ is bigger than ‘macro’. And it all started a competition. puno se pričalo o tome. doing at the time, and it contained a perspective from the važno što. The directors were competing and, what’s worse, it was in ORIS — U takvoj situaciji arhitektu zaista nije ugodno. ¶ ODILE pavement close to the building, like the formation of the ORIS — Ako se želite odmaknuti od arhitekture kao objekta, 2010, and Zaha opened her museum in May, and my director DECQ — Svi su govorili: ‘A dvije dame rade na muzejima, a oba building itself. Furthermore, for another competition, we onda Vaše umjetničke intervencije zapravo pokazuju vrlo at the time decided to have a ‘pre-opening’ on the same day. su u Rimu.’ Nevjerojatno. used this model on the site and said ‘Ok, we will do the zanimljiv način kako uvući korisnike u arhitekturu, kako Can you imagine having two openings at the same time, and ORIS — Samo smo usput spomenuli da ste se bavili i eduka­­ building like that now.’ It’s a very strange way of having done se pomaknuti od konzumenta do sudionika. ¶ ODILE having a competition about the parties, about everything? cijom. Radite li to i dalje? ¶ ODILE DECQ — Ne, već pet godina. something conceptually to express one project and after that DECQ — Sviđa mi se ta ideja, da to nije samo objekt za The newspapers and magazines and everybody was showing Prestala sam podučavati, ali su me 2007. izabrali za dekana you will use that concept as a real housing building. In recent gledanje. To govorim, ali istovremeno za galeriju u Rennesu the two and saying ‘Odile said that, Zaha said that’. It was na mom fakultetu. Više ne podučavam, upravljam, ali i to je days, I was really thinking about how I can bring my art back pripremam nešto što je više o objektima i nekim crtežima. everywhere in the newspapers, so there was really a big mnogo. Pola vremena provodim na fakultetu. into architecture. ORIS — Imate širok raspon projekata i interesa, od vrlo malih, discussion about it.

16 oris, broj 77, godina 2012 oris, number 77, year 2012 Odile Decq, Intervju Odile Decq, Interview 17 ORIS — It can be really irritating for architects to be put in this situation. ¶ ODILE DECQ — Everyone was saying: ‘Ah, two ladies working on museums, with both museums in Rome.’ It was incredible. ORIS — We have just briefly mentioned that you have been involved in education. Are you still involved in education? ¶ ODILE DECQ — No, not for the past five years. I’ve stopped teaching but I was elected director of my school in 2007. I’m not teaching any more, I’m the director, but it’s a lot. I spend half my time at the school. ORIS — How do you like it and how does it reflect on your work in the office? ¶ ODILE DECQ — They are two full-time jobs, so that speaks for itself. In this past five years I haven’t had time for anything because of these two jobs. In the future, I will look at how it is reacting, because it is a really specific job to be a director. Someone once told me: ‘You know, it will work on some part of the brain you never used before.’ And it’s true, because you discover that managing a school is something absolutely different from teaching and from managing an office. However, at the same time, it gives a very important strength to your thinking, because you have to explain all the time what you want and where you want the school to go, you have to convince the teachers, you have to discuss with them, you have to think about the pedagogy, you have to think about whom you can invite to lecture. So it’s really interesting in terms of how to understand what happens in architecture. I was really interested by the fact that at the beginning of these five years I discovered step by step a young generation of architects around 30, 40 years of age, working absolutely differently. At the beginning we were talking about star architects, but at the same time there is a new generation that is growing, absolutely unconcerned by stardom, and much more interested in the social question in FRAC (Fonds Régional architecture. I think it’s really important today. People are d’Art Contemporain working with communities, like Teddy Cruz in San Diego. I Bretagne), Rennes, Francuska, 2012. have also invited a young architect to come from Bombay. I am inviting more and more architects from this category, because FRAC (Fonds Régional I think it is really the future of architecture: social issues are d’Art Contemporain the crucial question in architecture. Bretagne), Rennes, France, 2012 ORIS — The problem of public space is also connected with this social aspect. ¶ ODILE DECQ — Yes. Moving again to (RH) urban questions, because from the 1980s and 1990s architects were not concerned so much by urban, because it was really a time with lots of building, when architecture was considered FRAC (Fonds Régional FRAC (Fonds Régional as an object. I think that now that time is finished. The star d’Art Contemporain d’Art Contemporain system was really negative in the field of architecture. It 3D model 3D model FRAC (Fonds Régional d’Art Contemporain FRAC (Fonds Régional d’Art Contemporain (RH) Bretagne), Rennes, Bretagne), Rennes, Bretagne), Rennes, Francuska, 2012. Bretagne), Rennes, France, 2012 Francuska, 2012., tlocrt France, 2012, plan was something that was really destroying the idea of what

18 oris, broj 77, godina 2012 oris, number 77, year 2012 Odile Decq, Intervju Odile Decq, Interview 19 umjetničkih objekata i dizajna, preko interijera i izlagačkih architecture is, because the architecture was considered too Nije tako bilo na drugim fakultetima. Morala sam i raditi u comfortable. I wanted to have a beautiful but comfortable chair, prostora do vrlo velikih projekata koji se bave urbanizmom. much an object you can buy and you can import whatever it arhitektonskom uredu, ali ne kao arhitekt. Pisala sam zahva­ to fit the body. It’s exactly why I was frightened by design. Kako se mijenja Vaš pristup prema mjerilu projekta i ovisi li o is wherever you want, but I think that architecture is always ljujući­ studiju povijesti umjetnosti. Taj arhitekt, Phillippe Bou­ ORIS — That line of thinking, about the body and how njemu? Kako reagirate na specifične probleme koji se javljaju done for one place only. You design for one place; you can’t don, pisao je knjige o teoriji arhitekture. S njim sam radila če­tiri architecture is related to the body, is present in almost all zbog mjerila projekta? ¶ ODILE DECQ — Čudno je to pitanje have the same building in many places, because the context godine, s njim pisala knjige. Obično smo sjedili na istoj stra­ of your projects. The restaurant in the opera is also very mjerila, jer studirala sam arhitekturu, a nakon toga nešto and the condition of the place are most important. It’s the way ni stola, ja bih gledala što je on napisao i komentirala. Bilo je body-orientated. ¶ ODILE DECQ — Yes, because I am always urbanizma, pa se vrlo lako igram s tim različitim mjerilima, od I think that I’m very different from Hadid now; because object- čudno tako raditi. Ondje sam naučila povijest arhitekture jer concerned by the fact that the body has to move easily in a arhitekture do urbanizma. Bojala sam se projektirati objekte based architecture can be done anywhere. It could be a shoe, it smo proučavali arhitekturu, arhitekte, dok se na fakultetu u isto space, or you can react with your body to the space, or the jer nije lako misliti o malim objektima. Sjećam se početka could be a ring or something else, and it doesn’t matter. vrijeme ništa nije događalo. Nakon diplome nisam znala ni kako space gives you the possibility to move because of the way 2000., kad smo za UNESCO napravili prvi naslonjač, tvrtka ORIS — If you want to go further away from architecture as nacrtati perspektivu, nisam znala projektirati niti vidjeti što se it’s done, makes you move inside it. The body has to be free je napravila prototip pa su ga donijeli u naš ured. Pogledala an object, then actually your artistic intervention shows a very događa u presjeku, apsolutno nisam bila obrazovana, pa sam in the space. It sometimes has some constraints, but it has sam ga i rekla: ‘Premalen je.’ Bila sam sigurna da je premalen. interesting way how to get users of architecture more involved sve to morala naučiti kroz vlastite projekte. to be able to move and to be always in movement. It is really Rekla sam da nešto ne valja i zatražila nove izmjere. Sjela sam in it, how to move from consumer to participant. ¶ ODILE ORIS — Kad već govorite o tom vremenu, koliko kontrakultura, the question of Macro. For me, travelling around a museum, u naslonjač, bio je udoban, ali jednostavno premalen, pa sam DECQ — I like that idea, that it’s not just an object to look pop-glazba, alternativna glazba, koliko takve stvari utječu having different possibilities to travel around a museum was ih molila da izrade veći. Napravili su drugi prototip, ali taj je at. I say that, but at the same time what I am preparing for na Vaš rad ili Vas? ¶ ODILE DECQ — Mislim da sve utječe na really important. Because to go, to give the public going to bio apsolutno neudoban. Onda sam shvatila da je prvi predmet the gallery in Rennes is much more about objects and some arhitekturu. Sve oko nas utječe na arhitekturu, što znači ne the museum the possibility to choose the path they want to koji sam dizajnirala bio manji od mog tijela. Bio je to naslonjač, drawings.­ samo umjetnost, već i glazba, ples, kazalište, opera, hrana, travel through the museum, and to discover the art through sad je stolac. Sad to znam raditi, ali na početku me objekt ORIS — You have very wide range of projects and interests, društvo, fizika, istraživanja u biologiji, sve! that travel through the museum. izne­nadio veličinom. To nije nešto što te okružuje, stvarno from very small ones, artistic objects and design, through ORIS — Prvi Vaš rad koji sam vidio bio je u časopisu Do­mus, ORIS — When you start thinking in that way, I guess it is je samo predmet na koji sjedneš. Čudno sam se osjećala; na­ interiors or exhibition spaces to very large ones which deal most u Nanterre. U to sam vrijeme završavao studij arhi­ somehow your intuition. This kind of approach is unusual, pravili smo modele, uzeli otiske različitih ljudi iz ureda kako with urbanism. How does your approach differ according to tek­ture. Zanimala me je posebna vrsta alternativne mu­zike especially in a time when you have gone through architectural bismo ih manipulirali i shvatili koji je najbolji oblik. Bili smo the scale of project, or is it independent of it? How do you tzv. gotička glazba. Kad sam vidio Vašu fotografiju, totalno school. It’s probably your invention. ¶ ODILE DECQ — It’s pragmatični, mislili smo na tijelo i kako će ga stolac obuhvatiti. react to specific problems which arise from the problem of Mnogo arhitekata dizajnira stolce, ponekad su zaista lijepi, ali the scale of projects? ¶ ODILE DECQ — The question of scale Maquettes apsolutno neudobni. Htjela sam izraditi lijep, ali udoban stolac is very strange, because I have been educated as an architect, invraisemblables, kraj 80-tih, model koji odgovara tijelu. Upravo sam se zato bojala dizajna. and after that I did some studies in urbanism, so I play with ORIS — Takvo je razmišljanje o tijelu i o tome kako se these two scales quite easily, from architecture to urbanism. I Maquettes arhitektura odnosi prema tijelu, prisutno u gotovo svim was very afraid of designing objects because it is not so easy invraisemblables, end of 80, model Vašim­ projektima. Restoran u operi također je vrlo tjelesan. to think about little objects. I remember at the beginning of ¶ ODILE DECQ — Da, zato što me uvijek brine činjenica da 2000 when we did the first armchair forUNESCO , a company (GF) se tijelo mora lako kretati prostorom ili reagirati na prostor, was making a prototype, and they brought the prototype to our ili mu prostor daje mogućnost kretanja zbog načina na koji office. I was looking at it and said: ‘It’s too small.’ I was sure it je izveden, te tjera tijelo na kretanje. Tijelo u prostoru mora was too small. I said that something was wrong and asked for biti slobodno. Ponekad postoje neka ograničenja, ali mora se another measurement. I sat in the chair, it was comfortable, but moći kretati i to stalno. Zapravo je to tema i u MACRO-u. Za it was simply too small, so I asked to make it bigger. They made mene je kretanje kroz muzej, različite mogućnosti kretanja po another prototype, and it was absolutely uncomfortable. Then, muzeju, zaista važno. Dati posjetiteljima mogućnosti da sami I realized that it was actually the first object I designed that biraju put kojim će se kretati po muzeju i otkrivati umjetnost was smaller than my body. It was an armchair, it is a chair now. na tom putovanju. I can do it now, but at the beginning I was really surprised by ORIS — Kad počinjete tako misliti, pretpostavljam da je to the object itself, because of the scale. It’s not an object which vaša intuicija. Taj je pristup neobičan, posebno u vrijeme surrounds you; it is really just an object you can sit on. I was kad ste studirali arhitekturu. Vjerojatno je Vaša inovacija. very surprised, and I had this very strange impression. We did ¶ ODILE DECQ — Možda je to zato što uopće nisam studirala the renders, we took some imprints with different people from jer smo stalno štrajkali tijekom mog studija u sedamdesetima the office to manipulate and understand what exactly the best (smije se). Uvijek govorim da sam obavila šest godina studija shape is. We were very pragmatic, we looked at the body and arhitekture, ali sam od toga četiri godine štrajkala. Studij how the chair can fit the body. Lot of architects were designing je bio tipičan za godine nakon 1968., nešto nevjerojatno. chairs, sometimes they are quite beautiful, but absolutely un­

20 oris, broj 77, godina 2012 oris, number 77, year 2012 Odile Decq, Intervju Odile Decq, Interview 21 MACRO, Muzej suvremene umjetnosti, Rim, Italija, 2010.

MACRO, Museum of Contemporary Art, Rome, Italy, 2010

(LF)

MACRO, Muzej me oduševila zbog asocijacije s grupom Siouxsie and the for four years, writing books with him. We used to sit on suvremene umjetnosti, Banshees, basisticom iz grupe Sisters of Mercy. ¶ ODILE either side of the table, I was looking at what he was writing Rim, Italija, 2010. DECQ — To su bila dva moja omiljena benda u to vrijeme i and commenting at the same time. It was a very strange way tlocrt često sam odlazila u London na koncerte jer Sisters of Mercy of working. I did my sort of history of architecture during MACRO, Museum of nisu dolazili u Francusku. Pjevač je rekao da je nekad imao my studies at this time there, because we were looking at plan Contemporary Art, Rome, djevojku Francuskinju koju je mrzio, pa je Francuska bila architecture, looking at architects, but when I was going to Italy, 2010 zabranjena, no sad svira i u Francuskoj. Lani sam kupila kartu, school, nothing happened. We were on strike all the time. So (RH) ali nisam mogla otići zbog nekog sastanka. Moram na koncert. it is really more intuitive because I was not really educated. Pjevač je zaista dojmljiv. A Siouxsie je isto bila posebna. After my degree, I did not know how to draw a perspective, I ORIS — Zanima li Vas još takva glazba? ¶ ODILE DECQ — Da, did not know how to design, I wasn’t really able to see what i imam ih na mobitelu. Imam sve CD-e gotičke glazbe iz tog happens in section, I was absolutely uneducated, so I had to razdoblja. U osamdesetima je u Londonu bila tržnica Great learn that by doing my own projects. maybe because I wasn’t educated at all, because we were Gear Market, u ulici King’s Road, gdje se svega moglo naći, ORIS — When you speak about that time, and I’m absolutely always on strike during my studies in the 1970s (laughs). I kafića, odjeće, ploča, knjiga, postera, svega. Onamo se moralo guessing here, how much does counter-culture, pop music, always say I did six years of architectural studies, but four ići. Svakog smo tjedna išli u London, ili svaka dva, slušati alternative music, how much does this kind of stuff influence years of that time I was on strike. It was post-’68 in the school glazbu jer smo u tim grupama imali prijatelje. Istovremeno your work or you? ¶ ODILE DECQ — I think that everything of architecture, it was really something incredible there. It was smo išli na londonske dokove. Kad bismo vikend proveli u influences architecture. Everything around us influences not like that in all the schools. I needed to work during my Londonu, išli bismo na koncert, ali bismo nedjeljom gledali architecture, that means not only art, but music, dance, theatre, studies, so I was working in an architectural office, but not zgrade i građevine na dokovima i tako smo shvatili kako graditi opera, food, society, physics, biological research, everything! as an architect. I was working as a writer, thanks to my study čelične konstrukcije. Gledali smo te detalje i transformacije na ORIS — The first work by you that I saw was in Domus of art history. This architect, Phillippe Boudon, was writing dokovima. Posjećivali bismo i muzeje suvremene umjetnosti. magazine, the motorway bridge in Nanterre. At that time, I books about the theory of architecture. I worked with him Bila je to odlična kombinacija za vikend. Deset sam godina was just finishing my architectural studies. I was into a very

22 oris, broj 77, godina 2012 oris, number 77, year 2012 Odile Decq, Intervju Odile Decq, Interview 23 Most preko autoceste novoj generaciji mladih arhitekata to se pitanje vraća. Zbog ORIS — Are you still into that kind of music? ¶ ODILE DECQ — i kontrolni centar, vremena između početka i kraja projekta, moramo biti u Yes, I still have them on my phone. I have all the CDs of all Nanterre, Francuska, 1996. stanju svoje ideje o jednom projektu zadržavati i deset godina, the gothic music from that period. In the 1980s, there was a bez obzira na vrijeme, novinare, medije, ekonomiju, krize i place in London called Great Gear Market, on the King’s Road, Motorway bridge and tako dalje. Sve je to vrlo složeno. Istovremeno, način na koji where you had everything, cafés, clothes, vinyl, books, posters, control center, Nanterre, integriramo ili izvodimo neke stvari, što sve uključujemo u everything. It was really the place to go at this time. We were France, 1996 projekt, daje nam mogućnost da gledamo dalje, da nas zanima going to London every week or every two weeks to listen to (GF) što će se dogoditi u budućnosti jer moramo biti u stanju music, because we had friends in those bands. At the same napraviti zgradu za sljedećih deset godina, ne za danas, već time, we were going to London’s docks. When we’d come for za sutra. Zbog toga mislim da arhitekti mogu savjetovati a weekend in London, we would go and see some concert, političare ili ljude koji trebaju informacije ili ljude, kako bi but on Sunday we would visit and look at the buildings and stvarali ideje za budućnost. Ovo je jedino zanimanje koje tako construction at the docks, and that’s how we understood funkcionira. Na primjer, dizajner obično skicu da tvrtki koja how to do buildings in steel construction. We were looking onda obavi sve ostalo. Uvijek je brzo. Reklamiranje je brzo, at these details and all the transformation of the docks. We kinematografija isto tako. Ali, mi moramo zadržavati misli. were also going to contemporary art museums. It was a super Zato je s nama teško živjeti (smije se). Uvijek o svemu imamo combination for the weekend. I did that for ten years. It was ideje ili mišljenja. a really inspiring period. It was a time when London was in ORIS — Zanimljiv je proces od ideje do realizacije. ¶ ODILE economic depression, but the energy inside was absolutely DECQ — Da, nije linearan. Nije diskurzivan, ali morate incredible. naći put i nikad nije ravan. Zato ga uvijek uspoređujem s ORIS — Things have definitely changed from that time. jedrenjem. Kad jedrite, imate točku do koje trebate stići, ali u Some for better some for worse, but it seems that this kind međuvremenu idete ovim ili onim putem, zbog vjetra, struja of fighting with creativity against Thatcherism and the crises i svega ostalog. Ako jedrite, znate da ćete istovremeno morati of that time has gone. How do you look on this kind of artistic navigati i pregovarati, raditi kompromise, ne gubeći cilj iz vida. resistance today? What is the position of the architect now To je za mene i arhitektura. in society? ¶ ODILE DECQ — First of all, we have more and ORIS — Zanimaju nas i projekti koje nismo vidjeli u knjigama more architects and because of the star system architects are i časopisima. Što pripremate? ¶ ODILE DECQ — Sljedeći je more known, but at the same time, I think in a way they’ve projekt FRAC u Rennesu i otvara se za dva mjeseca. I to je lost their real role in social terms. But as I said before, all muzej suvremene umjetnosti, manji od MACRO-a, različit, ali thanks to this new generation of young architects that issue ne jako. Prepoznaju se neke ideje iz MACRO-a, ali zbog uvjeta is coming back. Because of the length of time between the projekta, koji je manji i gušći, istovremeno je i drukčiji. Čudno beginning and the end of a project, we have to be able to keep je. Iznenadila sam se jer ne idem svaki tjedan na gradilište our ideas for ten years on one project, whatever is coming zbog nedostatka vremena, pa kad su je otkrili, nismo prije in terms of influence of time, journalists, media, economy, mnogo vidjeli jer je prostor u sredini bio ispunjen skelama. crises and so on. It’s very complex. At the same time, the way No, lani kad su počeli micati skele iz sredine, iznenadila sam we integrate, or do certain things with, everything we have se i prostor me se dojmio. Svaki put kad onamo odem, divim to integrate into one project, gives us a sort of possibility tako provela, vrlo inspirativno razdoblje. London je u to specific kind of gothic music and so on. When I saw your se onome što su napravili. Stvarno je snažno. Ministar kulture to look a bit further, to be curious about what will happen vrijeme bio u ekonomskoj depresiji, ali mu je energija bila picture, I was totally amazed because of the association with je muzej posjetio u ožujku, pa se i on iznenadio. Izvana se vidi in the future, because our buildings are so long that we apsolutno nevjerojatna. Siouxsie and the Banshees, the bass player from the Sisters samo taj crni kvadar. Čudna je i materijalnost tog kvadra. Ima have to be able to provide a building for tomorrow in ten ORIS — Otad se štošta promijenilo. Nešto na bolje, nešto na of Mercy and so on. ¶ ODILE DECQ — Those were two of my stakla, ali je staklo u slojevima od crnog do gotovo prozirnog, years, not for today, but for tomorrow. Thanks to that, I gore, ali čini se da je završila takva borba kreativnošću protiv favourite bands at the time and I went a lot of times to London a gore je čelik, no čelik je crn, ali istovremeno i reflektivan. think that architects are able to be advisors or consultants to tačerizma i krize tog vremena. Kako danas gledate na tu to see them, because Sisters of Mercy were never coming to Mijenja boju prema nebu, a otraga imamo crni beton. To znači politicians or people who need information or need people vrstu umjetničkog pokreta otpora? Koje je mjesto arhitekta France. The singer said he had a French girlfriend he hated, da se tri različita materijala igraju s tamom, ali su različiti jer su to make ideas for the future. This is the only profession that u današnjem društvu? ¶ ODILE DECQ — Kao prvo, imamo so France was forbidden, but he plays France now. Last year, reflektivni, istovremeno vrlo gusti pa apsorbiraju i odražavaju works like that. For example, a designer usually gives just a sve više arhitekata koji su poznatiji zbog ‘sustava zvijezda’, I bought a ticket but I couldn’t go, because I had a meeting. I sve u isto vrijeme. Vrlo zanimljiv monolit. Iznutra je to prostor sketch to the company, and the company does everything. ali istovremeno, mislim da su izgubili svoju pravu ulogu u have to see them. The singer’s presence is really impressive. koji se kreće od tla do visine od 30 metara. Ne mogu to zapravo It is always quick. Advertising is very quick, cinema is very društvenom smislu. Ali, kako sam i ranije rekla, za­hvaljujući And Siouxsie was also something else. dobro objasniti, zaista je složeno. quick. But, we have to keep our minds. It’s why we are very

24 oris, broj 77, godina 2012 oris, number 77, year 2012 Odile Decq, Intervju Odile Decq, Interview 25 ORIS — Zanimljivo je i da su crvena i crna boja nekako česta difficult to live withlaughs ( ). We always have an idea or tako intenzivna, pa je crna boja vrlo komplicirana. Za mene of Culture visit the site in March, and he was really surprised. tema Vaših radova. ¶ ODILE DECQ — OK, nosim crno i to opinion about something. crno integrira sve boje u sebe. Stephen Hawking je rekao da From the outside, you just see this black parallelepiped. The već duže vrijeme, ali istovremeno nisam htjela tjerati ljude ORIS — The process from the idea to realization is interesting. je kraj crne rupe crven. I tako sam sad zarobljena u vlastitom materiality of a parallelepiped is particular. We have glass, but da imaju isto mišljenje kao ja. Sjećam se prvih projekata u ¶ ODILE DECQ — Yes, it’s not linear. It’s not discursive, but sustavu. Zadnjih nekoliko tjedana razmišljam o tome kako the glass goes from black to nearly transparent by layers, and osamdesetima i čak devedesetima kad bismo razgovarali o you have to find a way, and it’s never straightforward. It’s pobjeći od toga. above we have steel, but the steel is black and reflective at bojama i materijalima nekog projekta, klijenti su me uvijek why I always compare it to sailing, because when you sail, ORIS — U operi ste upotrijebili bijelu i crvenu boju. ¶ ODILE the same time. It changes colour all the time thanks to the pitali hoću li unutra staviti crnu boju, a ja bih rekla: ‘Ne, crna you have a point you have to go to, but in the meantime, DECQ — Ali je pod crn. Nova je zgrada apsolutno transpa­ sky, and at the back we have black concrete. That means that nije obavezna.’ Od MACRO-a, kad sam se usudila koristiti you have to go this way and that way, because of the wind, rentna, ali su podovi unutra crni s nekoliko crvenih objekata. we have three different materials playing with this darkness, crnu, mislim da je sad mogu primjenjivati i češće. Otkrila the currents and everything. If you sail, you know that you U stupici sam. Teško je o tome razgovarati. Mislim o tome but at the same time they are really different, because they sam da je fascinantno igrati se crnom bojom u arhitekturi, ali will have to navigate and negotiate at the same time, to dok putujem, recimo da upotrijebim plavu boju, ali je plava are reflective, but at the same time very dense, absorbing and tek nedavno. Crvenu sam uvijek koristila kod rendera, kako compromise, but without losing the point. It’s the same as vrlo teška zbog mjesečine. Ako je stavite vani, mjesečina je reflecting everything at the same time. It’s a very interesting bih vidjela kontrast sa svjetlom. Crvenu sam iskoristila na architecture, to me. mijenja. Crvena je mnogo lakša. Ne znam, to je još jedna monolith. Inside, it is really a space which moves from the jednoj zgradi 1991. godine kad smo trebali obojiti zid na kra­ju ORIS — I’m a little bit curious about your projects which avantura koja me čeka. ground to the top 30 metres high. I can’t really describe it, zgra­de i naglasiti rez. Nekoliko smo dana o tome razgovarali we haven’t seen in books or magazines. What do you have ORIS — Netko je u šali rekao da crno nije boja, već pogled it’s really complex. s ličilačkom tvrtkom i nakon toga smiješali vlastitu nijansu in preparation? ¶ ODILE DECQ — The next one, FRAC in na svijet. Sviđa mi se Vaš pozitivni ‘mračni’ pogled na stvari. ORIS — It’s interesting that red and black are somehow a crvene. Otad je koristim jer je moja, ali na početku je to bilo Rennes, will open in two months. It is again a museum of Na taj način doživljavam i Vaš projekt ‘Mrzim Božić’ koji recurring theme in your work. ¶ ODILE DECQ — Ok, I’m samo na renderima, no kako su ispadali dojmljivi, odlučili contemporary art, smaller than MACRO, different, but not posebno volim zbog njegove oštroumnosti. Podsjeća me wearing black and have been wearing black for a long time, smo je koristiti i na građevinama. Bio je to proces, ne ideja, so different. You can recognize some ideas from MACRO, but malo na Tima Burtona i njegov poetski crni humor. ¶ ODILE but at the same time, I didn’t want to force people to have imati crnu zgradu. Polako se uvuklo, korak po korak. Sad because of the condition of this project, which is smaller and DECQ — U Francuskoj postoji dobrotvorna organizacija koja the same opinion as me. I remember my first projects in razmišljam o tome što bih mogla nakon toga jer ne mogu denser, it’s really different at the same time. It is strange, I was za Božić zamoli umjetnike, dizajnere i arhitekte da izrade the 1980s and even the 1990s when we were discussing dovijeka zgrade bojiti u crno i crveno. really surprised, because I don’t go to the site every week since božićna drvca koja će prodavati. Pristala sam napraviti the colours or materials of the project on site, my clients ORIS — No, to je dobro, neka vrsta potpisa. ¶ ODILE I don’t have that much time, so when they started to uncover jedno. Dakle, što je drvce? To je trokut i isprva sam rekla were always asking whether I would put some black inside, DECQ — Znam taj svoj problem s crnom jer otkad znam da it, because the space in the middle was so full of scaffolding da ga ne želim raditi jer mrzim Božić. Igrali smo pikado i and I would say no, you are not forced to have black. Since nosim crnu odjeću, za mene je sve crno. Ne kupujem ništa we didn’t see it a lot, but last year, when they started to take onda sam odlučila iskoristiti ga za božićno drvce, tako da je MACRO, where I dared to use black, I think I can finally push što nije crno. Teška je to droga. Čak i kad kupujem obične off this scaffolding in the middle, I was really surprised and svaka strelica nosila naziv smrtnog grijeha. Sve su različitih black. I discovered that it is fantastic to play with black in stvari, ne kupujem ako nije crno. Kad sam počela koristiti impressed by the space. Every time I go there, I am impressed boja, sedam strelica u sedam boja, svaka za jedan od sedam architecture, but this is quite recent. Red has always been in crnu boju na građevinama, to je zaista bilo teško jer je tama by what we have done. It’s really strong. We had the Minister grijeha. my rendered image, to see the contrast with the light. This

I Hate Christmas, Pariz, Francuska, 2010., Galerie Polaris

I Hate Christmas, Paris, France, 2010, Galerie Polaris

(ODBC)

26 oris, broj 77, godina 2012 oris, number 77, year 2012 Odile Decq, Intervju Odile Decq, Interview 27 red was used in a building in 1995 when we had to paint a wall at the end of the building and we wanted to express the cut, because it was a parallelepiped and we wanted to express the cut of the building by a red surface. We discussed this with a painting company for some days, and after that we made our own red. Since then I’ve been using that red, because it is my red, but in the beginning, it was only in the renderings, and because the renderings became so strong, we said ok, we can use it now inside the buildings. It was really a process; it was not the idea of having a black building. It came slowly inside, step by step. Now, I’m thinking about what I can do after that, because I can’t go on forever building black and red. ORIS — But it’s good, it’s some kind of signature. ¶ ODILE DECQ — I know my problem with black, because as soon as I knew I was wearing black, everything for me is black. I cannot buy anything which is not black. It’s a hard drug. Even if I go into a shop for a simple object, I can’t buy it if it’s not black. As soon as I started to do black in buildings, it became really difficult to go back, because darkness is so intense, so it’s really complicated to come back. For me, it is black which integrates all the colours inside. Stephen Hawking said that the end of a black hole is red. And so, now I’m trapped in my own system. For the past few weeks, I’ve been thinking about how to escape it. ORIS — You’ve made the opera in white and red. ¶ ODILE DECQ — But the floor is black. The new building is absolutely transparent, but inside the floors will be black and there will be some red objects inside. I’m trapped. It’s hard to discuss that. I think a lot when I travel, so I was thinking that maybe I can use blue, but how can you use blue, because blue is such a difficult colour to use due to the moonlight. If you place it outside, it is transformed by the moonlight. Red is (ODBC) Anisotropy, Los Angeles, SAD, 2011. Anisotropy, Los Angeles, USA, 2011 much easier. I don’t know, this is another adventure that I need to go on. ORIS — Someone said, jokingly, that ‘black is not a colour but a way of looking at the world’. I very much like your positive ‘dark’ view on things. I see your project ‘I Hate Christmas’ in that way, which I really adore because of its cleverness. It reminds me a little of Tim Barton and his poetic black humour. ¶ ODILE DECQ — In France, there is a charity that asks artists, designers and architects to make a Christmas tree so they can sell it. I agreed to make one. So what is a tree? It’s a triangle and I said that I didn’t want to do it because I hate Christmas. We were playing darts, and I decided to make it into a Christmas tree, with every dart having the name of a cardinal sin. They are all of different colour, seven arrows in seven colours, each for one of the seven sins.

28 oris, broj 77, godina 2012 oris, number 77, year 2012 Odile Decq, Interview 29