Vol. 799 Monday No. 331 15 July 2019

PARLIAMENTARYDEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDEROFBUSINESS

Questions Free Television Licences...... 1 NHS: Automation...... 4 Childhood Obesity ...... 6 Litter Strategy ...... 9 Democracy and Digital Technologies Committee Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013 Committee European Union Committee Membership Motions ...... 11 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill Committee ...... 12 Space Science and Technology Question for Short Debate ...... 81 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill Committee (Continued)...... 94

Grand Committee Town and Country Planning (Fees for Applications, Deemed Applications, Requests and Site Visits) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2019 Considered in Grand Committee...... GC 1 Environment (Legislative Functions from Directives) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 Considered in Grand Committee...... GC 6 Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) Order 2019 Considered in Grand Committee ...... GC 18 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. Corrections for the bound volume which Lords wish to suggest to the report of their speeches should be clearly indicated in a copy of the Daily Report, which, with the column numbers concerned shown on the front cover, should be sent to the Editor of Debates, House of Lords, within 14 days of the date of the Daily Report. This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2019-07-15

The first time a Member speaks to a new piece of parliamentary business, the following abbreviations are used to show their party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind LD Independent Liberal Democrat Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Ind UU Independent Ulster Unionist Lab Labour Lab Co-op Labour and Co-operative Party LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party

No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2019, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT

PRINCIPAL OFFICERS OF STATE

THE CABINET PRIME MINISTER,FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY AND MINISTER FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE—The Rt. Hon. Theresa May, MP CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER AND MINISTER FOR THE CABINET OFFICE—The Rt. Hon. David Lidington, MP CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER—The Rt. Hon. Philip Hammond, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT—The Rt. Hon. Sajid Javid, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS—The Rt. Hon. Jeremy Hunt, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION—The Rt. Hon. Stephen Barclay, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE AND MINISTER FOR WOMEN AND EQUALITIES—The Rt. Hon. Penny Mordaunt, MP LORD CHANCELLOR AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR JUSTICE—The Rt. Hon. David Gauke, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE—The Rt. Hon. Matt Hancock, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR BUSINESS,ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL STRATEGY—The Rt. Hon. Greg Clark, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INTERNATIONAL TRADE AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE—The Rt. Hon. Liam Fox, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WORK AND PENSIONS—The Rt. Hon. Amber Rudd, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR EDUCATION—The Rt. Hon. Damian Hinds, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR ENVIRONMENT,FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS—The Rt. Hon. Michael Gove, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR HOUSING,COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT—The Rt. Hon. James Brokenshire, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR TRANSPORT—The Rt. Hon. Chris Grayling, MP LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS AND LORD PRIVY SEAL—Baroness Evans of Bowes Park SECRETARY OF STATE FOR SCOTLAND—The Rt. Hon. David Mundell, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WALES—The Rt. Hon. Alun Cairns, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR NORTHERN IRELAND—The Rt. Hon. Karen Bradley, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—The Rt. Hon. Rory Stewart, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DIGITAL,CULTURE,MEDIA AND SPORT—The Rt. Hon. Jeremy Wright, MP MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO—The Rt. Hon. Brandon Lewis, MP ALSO ATTENDS CABINET CHIEF SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY—The Rt. Hon. Elizabeth Truss, MP LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS AND LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL—The Rt. Hon. Mel Stride, MP PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY AND CHIEF WHIP—The Rt. Hon. Julian Smith, MP ATTORNEY GENERAL—The Rt. Hon. Geoffrey Cox, QC, MP MINISTER FOR ENERGY AND CLEAN GROWTH—The Rt. Hon. Claire Perry, MP MINISTER FOR IMMIGRATION—The Rt. Hon. Caroline Nokes, MP MINISTER FOR UNIVERSITIES,SCIENCE,RESEARCH AND INNOVATION (INTERIM MINISTER FOR ENERGY AND CLEAN GROWTH)—Chris Skidmore, MP DEPARTMENTS OF STATE AND MINISTERS Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Greg Clark, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. Claire Perry, MP (Minister for Energy and Clean Growth) Chris Skidmore, MP (Minister for Universities, Science, Research and Innovation; Interim Minister for Energy and Clean Growth) § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Kelly Tolhurst, MP (Minister for Small Business, Consumers and Corporate Responsibility) Jake Berry, MP (Minister for the Northern Powerhouse and Local Growth) § Andrew Stephenson, MP (Minister for Business and Industry) The Rt. Hon. Lord Henley Cabinet Office— PRIME MINISTER,FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY AND MINISTER FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE—The Rt. Hon. Theresa May, MP MINISTER FOR THE CABINET OFFICE AND CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER—The Rt. Hon. David Lidington, MP MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO—The Rt. Hon. Brandon Lewis, MP PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARIES— Oliver Dowden, MP (Minister for Implementation) Chloe Smith, MP (Minister for the Constitution) Kevin Foster, MP § CABINET OFFICE SPOKESPERSON FOR THE LORDS—The Rt. Hon. Lord Young of Cookham, CH § ii

Defence— SECRETARY OF STATE AND MINISTER FOR WOMEN AND EQUALITIES—The Rt. Hon. Penny Mordaunt, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. Earl Howe § The Rt. Hon. Mark Lancaster, TD, MP (Minister for the Armed Forces) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. Tobias Ellwood, MP (Minister for Defence People and Veterans) Stuart Andrew, MP (Minister for Defence Procurement) Digital, Culture, Media and Sport— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Jeremy Wright, MP MINISTER OF STATE—Margot James, MP (Minister for Digital and the Creative Industries) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Lord Ashton of Hyde Rebecca Pow, MP (Minister for the Arts, Heritage and Tourism) Mims Davies, MP (Minister for Sport and Civil Society) Education— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Damian Hinds, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. Nick Gibb, MP (Minister for School Standards) The Rt. Hon. Anne Milton, MP (Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills) Chris Skidmore, MP (Minister for Universities, Science, Research and Innovation) § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Lord Agnew of Oulton, DL (Minister for the School System) Nadhim Zahawi, MP (Minister for Children and Families) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Michael Gove, MP MINISTER OF STATE—Robert Goodwill, MP (Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Dr Thérèse Coffey, MP (Minister for the Environment) Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Minister for Rural Affairs and Biosecurity) David Rutley, MP (Minister for Food and Animal Welfare) § Exiting the European Union— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Stephen Barclay, MP MINISTER OF STATE—Lord Callanan PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Robin Walker, MP James Cleverly, MP Kwasi Kwarteng, MP Foreign and Commonwealth Office— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Jeremy Hunt, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. Sir Alan Duncan, KCMG, MP (Minister for Europe and the Americas) Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Minister for the Commonwealth and the UN) The Rt. Hon. Dr Andrew Murrison, MP (Minister for the Middle East) § The Rt. Hon. Mark Field, MP (Minister for Asia and the Pacific) Harriett Baldwin, MP (Minister for Africa) § Health and Social Care— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Matt Hancock, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— Stephen Hammond, MP (Minister for Health) Caroline Dinenage, MP (Minister for Care) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Seema Kennedy, MP (Minister for Public Health and Primary Care) Jackie Doyle-Price, MP (Minister for Mental Health, Inequalities and Suicide Prevention) Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford Home Office— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Sajid Javid, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. Caroline Nokes, MP (Minister for Immigration) The Rt. Hon. Ben Wallace, MP (Minister for Security and Economic Crime) The Rt. Hon. Nick Hurd, MP (Minister for Policing and the Fire Service, Minister for London) Baroness Williams of Trafford (Minister for Countering Extremism, Minister for Equalities) § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—Victoria Atkins, MP (Minister for Crime, Safeguarding and Vulnerability) iii

Housing, Communities and Local Government— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. James Brokenshire, MP MINISTER OF STATE—Kit Malthouse, MP (Minister for Housing) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Jake Berry, MP (Minister for the Northern Powerhouse and Local Growth) § Heather Wheeler, MP (Minister for Housing and Homelessness) Rishi Sunak, MP (Minister for Local Government) Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Minister for Faith) § International Development— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Rory Stewart, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. Dr Andrew Murrison, MP § Harriett Baldwin, MP § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Baroness Sugg, CBE Baroness Williams of Trafford (Minister for Equalities) § International Trade— SECRETARY OF STATE AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE—The Rt. Hon. Liam Fox, MP MINISTER OF STATE—George Hollingbery, MP (Minister for Trade Policy) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—Graham Stuart, MP (Minister for Investment) Justice— LORD CHANCELLOR AND SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. David Gauke, MP ADVOCATE GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND AND MINISTRY OF JUSTICE SPOKESPERSON FOR THE LORDS—The Rt. Hon. Lord Keen of Elie, QC MINISTER OF STATE—Robert Buckland, QC, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Paul Maynard, MP Edward Argar, MP Law Officers— ATTORNEY GENERAL—The Rt. Hon. Geoffrey Cox, QC, MP SOLICITOR GENERAL—Lucy Frazer, QC, MP ADVOCATE GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND—The Rt. Hon. Lord Keen of Elie, QC (Ministry of Justice Spokesperson for the Lords) Leader of the House of Commons— LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS AND LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL—The Rt. Hon. Mel Stride, MP Leader of the House of Lords— LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS AND LORD PRIVY SEAL—Baroness Evans of Bowes Park DEPUTY LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS—The Rt. Hon. Earl Howe § Northern Ireland— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Karen Bradley, MP MINISTER OF STATE—John Penrose, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—Lord Duncan of Springbank § Scotland Office— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. David Mundell, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—Lord Duncan of Springbank § Transport— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Chris Grayling, MP MINISTER OF STATE—Michael Ellis, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Nusrat Ghani, MP § Andrew Jones, MP Baroness Vere of Norbiton § Treasury— CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER—The Rt. Hon. Philip Hammond, MP CHIEF SECRETARY—The Rt. Hon. Elizabeth Truss, MP PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY AND CHIEF WHIP—The Rt. Hon. Julian Smith, MP FINANCIAL SECRETARY AND PAYMASTER GENERAL—Jesse Norman, MP EXCHEQUER SECRETARY—Robert Jenrick, MP ECONOMIC SECRETARY—John Glen, MP (City Minister) iv

LORDS COMMISSIONERS— Mike Freer, MP Nusrat Ghani, MP § Alister Jack, MP Rebecca Harris, MP David Rutley, MP § Jeremy Quin, MP ASSISTANT WHIPS— Matt Warman, MP Iain Stewart, MP Jo Churchill, MP Amanda Milling, MP Michelle Donelan, MP Wendy Morton, MP Kevin Foster, MP § Wales Office— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Alun Cairns, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth § Kevin Foster, MP § Work and Pensions— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Amber Rudd, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— Alok Sharma, MP (Minister for Employment) Justin Tomlinson, MP (Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Guy Opperman, MP (Minister for Pensions and Financial Inclusion) Baroness Buscombe Will Quince, MP (Minister for Family Support, Housing and Child Maintenance) Her Majesty’s Household— LORD CHAMBERLAIN—The Rt. Hon. Earl Peel, GCVO, DL LORD STEWARD—The Earl of Dalhousie MASTER OF THE HORSE—Lord De Mauley PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY AND CHIEF WHIP—The Rt. Hon. Julian Smith, MP TREASURER AND DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP—Christopher Pincher, MP COMPTROLLER—Mark Spencer, MP VICE CHAMBERLAIN—Craig Whittaker, MP Government Whips, House of Lords— CAPTAIN OF THE HONOURABLE CORPS OF GENTLEMEN-AT-ARMS AND CHIEF WHIP—The Rt. Hon. Lord Taylor of Holbeach, CBE CAPTAIN OF THE QUEEN’S BODYGUARD OF THE YEOMEN OF THE GUARD AND DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP—The Earl of Courtown BARONESSES IN WAITING— Baroness Vere of Norbiton § Baroness Goldie, DL Baroness Stedman-Scott, OBE, DL Baroness Barran, MBE LORDS IN WAITING— Viscount Younger of Leckie The Rt. Hon. Lord Young of Cookham, CH § § Members of the Government listed under more than one department HOUSE OF LORDS

PRINCIPAL OFFICE HOLDERS AND SENIOR STAFF

LORD SPEAKER—The Rt. Hon. Lord Fowler SENIOR DEPUTY SPEAKER—The Rt. Hon. Lord McFall of Alcluith PRINCIPAL DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES—Lord Boswell of Aynho CLERK OF THE PARLIAMENTS—E.C. Ollard CLERK ASSISTANT—S.P. Burton READING CLERK AND CLERK OF THE OVERSEAS OFFICE—J. Vaughan LADY USHER OF THE BLACK ROD AND SERJEANT-AT-ARMS—S. Clarke, OBE COMMISSIONER FOR STANDARDS—Lucy Scott-Moncrieff, CBE COUNSEL TO THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES—J. Cooper CLERK OF COMMITTEES—Dr F. P. Tudor LEGAL ADVISER TO THE EUROPEAN UNION COMMITTEE—A. Horne, T. Mitchell LEGAL ADVISER TO THE HUMAN RIGHTS COMMITTEE—E. Hourigan DIRECTOR OF FACILITIES—C. V. Woodall FINANCE DIRECTOR—Vacant DIRECTOR OF PARLIAMENTARY DIGITAL SERVICE—T. Jessup DIRECTOR OF HUMAN RESOURCES—N. Sully CLERK OF LEGISLATION—A. Makower PRINCIPAL CLERK OF SELECT COMMITTEES—DR C.S. Johnson REGISTRAR OF LORDS’INTERESTS—T.W.G. Wilson

15 July 2019

THE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

IN THE FIRST SESSION OF THE FIFTY-SEVENTH PARLIAMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND COMMENCING ON THE THIRTEENTH DAY OF JUNE IN THE SIXTY-SIXTH YEAR OF THE REIGN OF

HER MAJESTY QUEEN ELIZABETH II

FIFTH SERIES VOLUME DCCXCIX

SEVENTEENTH VOLUME OF SESSION 2017-19

Lord Naseby: Does my noble friend the Minister House of Lords recognise that, in effect, the BBC is victimising 5.5 million pensioners whose sole real leisure pursuit, unless they Monday 15 July 2019 are really active, is to watch television and listen to radio? It is no source of help to them to be told that 2.30 pm the poorest will be means-tested. Does my noble friend recollect in 1986 the Peacock report recommending Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Newcastle. that the BBC accept some advertising and sponsorship? Have the Government brought to the BBC’s attention Free Television Licences the fact that £140 million of BBC income worldwide Question now comes from advertising and sponsorship? If that is good enough worldwide, why is it not good enough 2.36 pm to be implemented at least to some extent in the United Kingdom? Asked by Lord Naseby Toask Her Majesty’sGovernment what discussions Lord Ashton of Hyde: My Lords, under the 2015 they had with the BBC on possible sources of funding settlement it was agreed that responsibility funding before the BBC announced their plans to would go to the BBC in return for an increase in its cease providing free television licences for those age licence fee that was guaranteed and index-linked for 75 or older. five years. The director-general promoted that agreement and that is why we are disappointed with the BBC’s Lord Naseby (Con): My Lords, I declare an interest decision. As for the Peacock report, which as my noble in that I am over 75. Whyhave Her Majesty’sGovernment friend said was 33 years ago, the funding model was allowed— considered then, but it was also considered again as part of the charter review. I am afraid to say to my Noble Lords: No! noble friend that only 1.5% of those consulted agreed that having advertising on the BBC was a good idea. Lord Naseby: Sorry—old age. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab): My Lords, is not the real issue here whether we can believe the party TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department opposite when it made a manifesto commitment to for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of provide free television licences for those over 75 for the Hyde) (Con): My Lords, the Government discussed whole of the Parliament? The Minister has previously funding with the BBC in 2015. We agreed with the responded on this issue at great length and shared BBC that responsibility for the concession would transfer with the House his concern at being beaten up by this, to it in June 2020. To help with financial planning, we but we are talking about the integrity and truthfulness agreed to provide phased transitional funding over two of his party. What will he do about it? It is not a years so as gradually to introduce the cost to the BBC. question of the figures; it is about what action can be The Government and the BBC agreed that this was a taken. Last time, the excuse was that there was no fair deal for the BBC. The future of the concession is legislation and it would take too long. We have a therefore the responsibility of the BBC. The Government DCMS Bill in the House at the moment. What is are clear that they are disappointed with its decision. wrong with tabling an amendment to that? 3 Free Television Licences [LORDS] NHS: Automation 4

Lord Ashton of Hyde: The DCMS Bill the noble implement the promise that they made in their election Lord refers to deals with the operational delivery of manifesto. Will the Government support that Bill? If the Commonwealth Games and has really nothing to not, why not? do with the BBC at all. As for his question, I have replied to it: I said that everyone knew, when the Lord Ashton of Hyde: The noble Lord repeats his manifesto was written, that the responsibility had mantra that it is not the BBC’s responsibility. We been given to the BBC by Parliament. That is where it decided in 2015, and the BBC agreed, that it would be rests, because that is where Parliament put it, and that its responsibility. After that, Parliament agreed in the is why we are disappointed with its decision. Digital Economy Act that it would be the BBC’s responsibility. Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD): My NHS: Automation Lords, we on these Benches agree that we must support Question our older citizens. However, does the Minister accept that the introduction of free TV licences for the over 2.45 pm 25s; sorry,for the over 75s—that would be expensive—was Asked by Baroness Seccombe government policy and should be paid for by the Government? The licence fee is not the Government’s To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps to spend: it is not public money but the public’s money they are taking to increase the use of automation in and should be used to invest in BBC programmes and the National Health Service. BBC content. There is no point in a free licence if the TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department BBC is so pared to the bone that there is nothing of of Health and Social Care (Baroness Blackwood of quality to watch. North Oxford) (Con): My Lords, the Topol review, published earlier this year, outlines recommendations Lord Ashton of Hyde: I do not agree that the BBC is for preparing the health and care workforce, through pared to the bone. The BBC is a £5 billion organisation; education and training, to adopt new technologies it gets £3.7 billion from the taxpayer, so I do not agree such as artificial intelligence and robotics. It is clear that it is a pared-down organisation. that the use of AI will not replace clinical staff but instead allow them to be more human. The use of new Lord Grade of Yarmouth (Con): My Lords, I declare technologies will ensure that patients receive safer, an interest as a former chairman of the BBC and, once more productive, more effective and more personalised upon a time, an executive there—in the good old days. care. The recommendations of the Topol review have However we got to where we are today on the issue of informed the interim NHS people plan, which sets out pensioners, we are where we are. Does my noble friend how we prepare the workforce to build an NHS that is agree with me in praising the diligence with which the fit for the future. BBC has set about trying to solve the problem of Baroness Seccombe (Con): My Lords, the success of meeting the expectation of help for pensioners while at any organisation is dependent on the people within it. the same time not impoverishing everyone else’s viewing I believe that the most precious asset that the NHS has by making swingeing cuts in programme budgets? The is its human resource of dedicated staff, but in these BBC has behaved impeccably and been meticulous in days of sophisticated IT, and now artificial intelligence, trying to respond to the problem. can my noble friend tell the House what developments can be safely and securely harnessed by the NHS? Lord Ashton of Hyde: My noble friend makes the point that we are where we are. This was debated by Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford: Tremendous Parliament and agreed. I know that some people, innovations are being introduced, including in robotics some noble Lords included, did not agree with the and AI-based automation, particularly in diagnostics, decision to pass responsibility to the BBC in the which have the potential to transform how healthcare Digital Economy Act; nevertheless, that was done and is delivered in the NHS, but the role of automation to the BBC is living up to the responsibility it was given. carry out basic administrative and repetitive functions, Dealing with the change in the structure of fees is a and of robotics in surgical operations in particular, is very difficult job, and television is changing dramatically, due to increase over the next decade. The main purpose so I sympathise with the BBC; it has a difficult job to of this automation in health is not to replace staff do. Nevertheless, we gave it a lot of warning—this was with machines or to reduce the role played by humans agreed in 2015—and that is why we are disappointed in providing care but, rather, to enable staff to spend with what it has decided. more time delivering personalised care. But it is also to improve the productivity of health services and systems so that we can ensure that the NHS becomes more Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op): My Lords, I sustainable in future. declare an interest as the chair of Age Scotland. This is not a matter for the BBC: it is a government Baroness Thornton (Lab): My Lords, the noble responsibility. The Minister says that the Bill that my Baroness, Lady Seccombe, made a valid point about noble friend on the Front Bench referred to is not the need for human beings to be involved in the appropriate, but there is an appropriate Bill: I have a delivery of healthcare, but the use of AI and other Private Member’s Bill, which has had its First Reading technology is also very exciting, as is the fact that it and will transfer responsibility back from the BBC features so largely in the long-term plan. Are the to the Government. It will enable the Government to experiments in automation taking place across the 5 NHS: Automation [15 JULY 2019] Childhood Obesity 6 country, where are they taking place, when will we see other words, patients can spend more time with their the results and who is delivering automated healthcare doctor if certain more routine things are automated. and AI? Is it the NHS or are private contractors being Will my noble friend make sure that that is one of the commissioned to do this work? I accept that the key aims of bringing automation into healthcare? Minister may not be able to answer all those questions in detail, but if she cannot, I would appreciate a letter Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford: My noble being placed in the Library. friend is right. One of the key recommendations is that by automating routine analyses such as radiology, Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford: The noble diagnoses and pathology and routinely bringing in AI Baroness is absolutely right: this is a very exciting area to sequence bed management, we will reduce the burden of ongoing work and a key part of the grand challenges on clinicians so that they are able to see more patients. which we put in place as part of the life sciences The review makes specific recommendations to help strategy, part of which is the AI and early diagnosis the workforce become more digital ready, which means initiative, which aims to transform the prevention, increasing capacity and capability, and building the early diagnosis and treatment of chronic diseases. right environment. That is exactly what we have embedded NHSX’s work across government is to deliver that into the NHS people plan and all that we are working mission, creating an ecosystem of safe and effective on through NHSX. development of AI and the regulatory infrastructure so patients and clinicians can be reassured that where Lord Ravensdale (CB): My Lords, I declare my it is introduced, it will be safe. There will be lots of interests as set out in the register. Robotic process research and development of those innovations. We automation—RPA—is an emerging software technology are at an early stage of implementing them, but there that can undertake repetitive tasks in place of human are five centres of excellence across the country. I will workers. Many industries are seeing the benefits of be very happy to place a letter in the Library updating using this technology and thus releasing people to do the House on progress with the AI mission and these more value-added work. I believe that it has been used exciting developments. in a small number of NHS trusts. Can the Minister say whether there are any plans to deploy this technology Baroness Brinton (LD): My Lords, while the delivery more widely across the health service? of automation and AI has much to commend it to the NHS, CyberMDX reported last week that anaesthetic Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford: The noble machines can be hacked and controlled from afar, Lord is right to say that technologies such as this offer including silencing alarms that would alert anaesthetists the most potential to reduce repetitive work and transform to danger. Four months ago in Israel, a cybersecurity how our healthcare is delivered. This is what we are firm demonstrated that computer virus malware could focusing on to ensure that we can give health and care add tumours to images of scans. What protections, staff the ability to spend more time delivering personalised such as digital signatures and encryption, does the care in medicine while also ensuring that we improve NHS now put in place, following the malware alarm systems to make them more efficient and productive. two years ago, to ensure that automation and digital services cannot be attacked by malevolent forces? Childhood Obesity Question Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford: The noble Baroness is correct to say that patients and clinicians have a right to expect their data to be held securely. 2.52 pm Since the WannaCry attack in May 2017, we have Asked by Baroness Jenkin of Kennington taken steps to ensure that NHS security measures are of the highest standard. This includes £60 million to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action improve cyber resilience in local infrastructure, support they are taking to combat childhood obesity. for NHS organisations to update their Windows operating systems, procuring a new cybersecurity operations TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department centre, and boosting the national capability to prevent, of Health and Social Care (Baroness Blackwood of detect and respond to cyberattacks.Weare also committed North Oxford) (Con): My Lords, we are delivering a to achieving much greater operational visibility across world-leading plan to tackle childhood obesity. Later all NHS digital systems. This is one of the ways in this summer, we will set out further action through a which we can respond to attacks. Lastly, we expect the prevention Green Paper. In addition, the Chief Medical highest ethical standards from all data-driven systems Officer is reviewing what more can be done to help us and that is why we have introduced the code of conduct meet our ambition of halving childhood obesity by for data-driven health and care technology. That is 2030. The review, due to report in September, will how we will ensure that we have some of the best consider the approaches taken internationally,regionally AI and data-driven technologies. and across the country, and will make a series of recommendations. Viscount Ridley (Con): My Lords, does my noble friend agree with one of the key points made by Baroness Jenkin of Kennington (Con): My noble Professor Topol that one of the benefits of artificial friend will have seen coverage in the weekend’s press of intelligence is the “gift of time”, as he has put it? In food companies which are continuing to breach the 7 Childhood Obesity [LORDS] Childhood Obesity 8

[BARONESS JENKIN OF KENNINGTON] several million times to help parents and families government advice that a child should not be weaned make better food choices. We have more to do on this, until six months of age. They are also still failing to and we very much welcome proposals to do it. I know reformulate infant foods. For example, one portion of that the Amsterdam model has been particularly effective; baby porridge contains 9.4 grams of sugar in a 24 gram indeed, my noble friend raised this with the previous portion. That of course leads to further childhood Public Health Minister, and I am sure she will continue obesity, dental decay and addiction to sugar. Can my to raise the issue. noble friend tell us what conversations and discussions the Government are having with food companies, in Lord Addington (LD): My Lords, does the Minister particular Heinz, Danone and Nestlé about reformulation not agree that activity is an important part of tackling and the age at which infants should be weaned? obesity? We have had some wonderful examples of sporting success in women’s football, cricket, netball Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford: My noble and other activities at the moment. What are we going friend is a great champion on this subject and has been to do to make sure that these examples of sporting an expert in it for a long period. Through the prevention success are fed down to children and made available Green Paper, which is due to be published this summer, on free-to-air when possible? we are determined to look at a range of further options to tackle obesity. We have publicly committed Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford: We should to taking action on infant and baby food. She will all be incredibly proud of the sporting achievements know that we are making progress on the reformulation over this weekend; we should not hesitate to do whatever section of the obesity strategy. However, we have we can to promote them throughout our schools and further to go, and I am grateful to her for her Question make the most of the moment. The noble Lord is on this issue. absolutely right that regular physical activity has been linked not only to improved physical health but to Lord Bird (CB): Is it possible to consider something improved mental health and academic achievement. very clever? Rather than accepting that the poorest That is why the Chief Medical Officer has recommended among us are the ones who deal with obesity, why do 60 minutes of physical activity every day. We know we not give them a Waitrose lunch and dinner and that only one in five achieve this; that is why the subsidise it, and stop having to pay further upline in money from the sugar levy is going into schools activity. the NHS? Why do we not start thinking globally But we have more to do. We have announced the rather than just a bit at a time? national plan and now need to implement that effectively, and I hope that the noble Lord will hold us up to the mark in delivering it. Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford: I thank the noble Lord for his question; I hope that we can occasionally think cleverly in government. He is absolutely Baroness Bull (CB): My Lords, notwithstanding the right that obesity is strongly correlated with socioeconomic importance of anti-obesity guidance in supporting deprivation, and that is why chapter 2 of our plan tries the long-term health of the general population, is the to target those areas that are most affected by delivering Minister aware of the concerns of eating disorder a childhood obesity trailblazer programme, working specialists about its unintended consequences on those with local authorities to address this. They have been for whom “Eat less, exercise more”is not an appropriate provided with £100,000 in the first instance to try to message? Clinicians are reporting an increasing number improve the impact of the childhood obesity plan. We of young people citing anti-obesity guidance to justify shall see how that goes, but I am very happy to pass on excessive behaviours in exercise and diet restriction. his suggestion. Does she agree that, while anti-obesity policy is vital, it needs to be sufficiently nuanced that it does not cause unintended collateral damage to these vulnerable Lord Dubs (Lab): My Lords, the Minister will no groups? doubt be aware that the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly some time ago produced a report on childhood obesity. Does the Minister agree, dipping into that Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford: The noble report, that we need not only a national strategy Baroness presents a sensitive and sophisticated point: but—as demonstrated to the committee in Amsterdam—a the whole point of the obesity message is that children local strategy, where the local authority can take the should be eating a healthy, balanced diet and exercising initiative, and there can be education and pregnant in an appropriate way. mothers can be helped to see their way through their own diets and therefore to help their children? Does Earl Attlee (Con): My Lords, does the Minister she agree that we need a local strategy as well, and can agree that obesity will break the NHS model if we do the Government initiate that with local authorities? not do something about it?

Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford: The noble Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford: I absolutely Lord is quite right that the national plan must be agree with my noble friend. Obesity is a crisis that will implemented locally. Public Health England works not only create misery for those who will then experience with local authorities to do that and has set up a increased risk of tooth decay and of diseases such as number of tools, such as the Change4Life plan, which cancers, diabetes and other severe illnesses, but it will includes food scanners that have been downloaded also create significant unsustainability within our health 9 Childhood Obesity [15 JULY 2019] Litter Strategy 10 service, which we are able to prevent. Since we know our schoolchildren about the problems of litter; the the tools that we have to prevent it, we should all be danger it causes to the environment, disfiguring it, and working together to make sure we do. the health hazards it can cause?

Baroness Thornton (Lab): My Lords, we know—and the noble Lord, Lord Bird, made this point—that it is Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My Lords, my noble the poorest children who are obese. This is largely friend is absolutely right. That is why education and because their parents buy food which is high in fat, awareness are key elements of the litter strategy; we sugar and salt, because it is cheaper than fresh food. It want every child to learn about the impacts of litter. may or may not be from Waitrose, but the noble Lord Citizenship education is part of the statutory national makes an important point there. I have two questions curriculum at key stages 3 and 4. There are also for the Minister. First, is it true that two-thirds of the 19,200 schools in England which are registered eco- deadlines of the plans that have been put forward for schools—that is around 79%, and this number is growing the obesity strategy have been missed? Secondly, what daily. The Great Big School Clean was central to the is the Government’s strategy for dealing with summer Great British Spring Clean. There is very much more hunger—those children who will not get proper meals to do, but we certainly need to work with the next during the summer break? generation to have a better environment.

Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford: The noble Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab): My Lords, we Baroness is quite right to raise inequalities. This is have been waiting for the introduction of a bottle exactly why chapter 2 of our plan is focused on deposit scheme, which would play a significant part in childhood obesity trailblazer programmes, where we reducing litter from plastic bottles and tin cans, for have identified areas of highest deprivation to provide some time now. Given that the Government’s latest specific support to local authorities in those areas. We consultation on this issue was completed a couple of have also recognised this issue around school holidays: months ago, what is now stopping them from introducing around 50,000 disadvantaged children will be offered this measure, which would have widespread popular free meals and activities over the upcoming summer support and do a great deal to tackle the litter problem? holidays, funded by £9.1 million from the Department for Education. That follows a successful programme last summer,whichsawimprovement,withfootballplaysessions Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My Lords, I agree with and cooking classes for more than 18,000 children the noble Baroness that the deposit return scheme is a across the country. However, the noble Baroness is very important part of what we need to do. There right to recognise that this is a real challenge that we clearly needs to be further work with business to need to address. ensure that the scheme runs satisfactorily when we implement it. The first consultation closed on 13 May. Litter Strategy This is very important in terms of littering and of Question increasing recycling. These two things go together. I am as impatient as the noble Baroness to get this done 3.01 pm as soon as possible. Asked by Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress Baroness Parminter (LD): My Lords, glass is a is being made on implementing their Litter Strategy major problem when it litters our countryside—for for England, published on 10 April 2017. humans, for fire risks and for wildlife. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, mentioned the deposit return TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department scheme. Scotland has recently introduced a 20p deposit for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner return scheme which includes glass. Will the Minister of Kimble) (Con): My Lords, progress includes improved confirm that any scheme introduced in England would enforcement powers for councils, with a near doubling include all sizes and materials, including glass? of the maximum on-the-spot penalty, the launch of our ambitious Keep it, Bin it anti-litter campaign and Lord Gardiner of Kimble: I had better check on that continued delivery of the litter innovation fund. We precisely for the noble Baroness. I will put a letter in were also pleased to support this year’s Great British the Library. The whole purpose of the deposit return Spring Clean, which mobilised over half a million scheme is to ensure that, in our ever more circular people and involved over 175,000 young people. The economy we need to recycle and reuse more, whether litter strategy brings together communities, businesses, it is glass, plastic or aluminium. I will write to the charities and schools to deliver real change. noble Baroness. Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury (Con): Does my noble friend agree that it is a somewhat strange paradox Lord Marlesford (Con): My Lords, does my noble that, at a time of growing and wide concern—quite friend agree that a much cleaner Britain ought to be a rightly—about safeguarding the environment, there relatively easy political objective to achieve? Will he agree seems to be an increasing problem with litter all over that one thing that is needed is more people picking up the place? Without the fantastic work of street cleaners, litter? As we are trying to keep people out of prison, a we would realise how big a problem this really is. Will great deal more use could be made of community my noble friend say what more can be done to educate service orders to ensure that litter is picked up. 11 Litter Strategy[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 12

Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My Lords, we have a ElectoralRegistrationandAdministrationAct2013Committee great dilemma. We can do all that we need to do and That Baroness Adams of Craigielea be appointed want to do, with many more people picking up litter—over a member of the Select Committee, in place of half a million were doing so in the Great British Lord Morris of Aberavon. Spring Clean—but roughly one in five people admits to dropping litter. The whole purpose of the education and awareness campaign is precisely to bear down on European Union Committee the fact that a lot of our fellow citizens do not think it That Lord Lamont of Lerwick, Lord Morris of is socially unacceptable to drop litter. For all sorts of Aberavon and Lord Sharkey be appointed members reasons, we must tackle that because it is damaging to of the Select Committee, in place of Lord Polak, the environment and wildlife, and it looks dreadful. Lord Soley and Baroness Falkner of Margravine.

Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab): My Lords, does the Motions agreed. Minister agree that, given that we have so many local authorities with different recycling schemes, we should have a national standard and a national plan for NorthernIreland(ExecutiveFormation)Bill recycling? That way, maybe we will begin to drive up Committee recycling rates, which are appallingly low in most local authority districts. 3.08 pm Lord Gardiner of Kimble: That is precisely why we are working on it. The noble Lord is right: we want to Clause 1: Extension of period for forming an have a consistent, clear and easy to understand range Executive of products—the widest range of products—that are recyclable. It all goes back to the need to enhance our environment, and that is part of that work. Amendment 1 Moved by Lord Cormack The Countess of Mar (CB): My Lords, does the Minister agree that the state of the verges on our 1: Clause 1, page 1, line 4, leave out “21 October 2019” and major roads and motorways and on railway embankments insert “13 January 2020” is something that we should all be ashamed of, particularly when a lot of tourists use these routes? When I asked Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, the amendments previously, I was told that health and safety stopped in this group all stand in my name but I am extremely people from picking up litter on major roads. Is there grateful to my noble friend Lord Trimble and the any way that we can overcome this and ensure that our noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, for adding their names roadsides are kept clean? to all but one of them. These are very simple amendments, which I trailed last week at Second Reading. All they Lord Gardiner of Kimble: I agree with the do is alter dates in the Bill. They do not cause any noble Countess that our roads are not a good impediment whatever if, miraculously—I think it would advertisement. That is why we have been working with be miraculous—a Northern Ireland Executive were set Highways England. Highways England has been working up in the very near future. I think there is common on 25 particular hot spots that are really bad—indeed, agreement among those who follow the affairs of nearly 20,000 bags of litter were picked up in the Northern Ireland closely that it is, sadly, very unlikely Great British Spring Clean. We need to do more on that any significant change will take place by the that and more on working with the highways network August date in the Bill. I regret that, just as I regret and the railways. That is why I am pleased with the that for more than two and a half years now we have Keep it, Bin it campaign. It is all to do with working had no Northern Ireland Executive and no Assembly. with many different bodies to ensure that the message My noble friend who will respond to this debate gets about that it is not acceptable to drop litter. knows full well my views on the desirability of summoning the Assembly, having its committees working and, Democracy and Digital Technologies above all, having an Executive, the absence of which Committee has deprived the people of Northern Ireland of proper devolved government for more than two and a half Electoral Registration and Administration years, but we must be realistic. Your Lordships’ House Act 2013 Committee will be going into recess, as will the other place, at the end of next week. We come back briefly in September. European Union Committee By then a new Prime Minister will have been in office Membership Motions for some weeks, but nobody in this House or the other place imagines, much as we might regret it, that the 3.08 pm new Prime Minister will have anything at the top of Moved by The Senior Deputy Speaker his agenda other than Brexit. All eyes will increasingly be focused not on a date in the middle of October but Democracy and Digital Technologies Committee on a date at the end of October—31 October. That Baroness McGregor-Smith be appointed In these circumstances it seems sensible to avoid the a member of the Select Committee, in place of constant coming back for a renewal, effectively, of a Lord Dobbs. mandate. We have done this too often now. Therefore, 13 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 14 in these amendments I am suggesting that we delete I am pleased to support the amendment to the Bill the October date, insert a fallback date of 13 January moved by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack. The final, in its place, and that for a fallback date we have not real purpose of the Bill is to prevent an election to 13 January but 10 April. I have put that date for a very enable more time for the talks to take place. All these deliberate reason. That will be the 22nd anniversary of dates will do is to make further accommodation. The the Good Friday agreement. I hope that might focus amendment is not inconsistent with the main purpose minds, particularly in Northern Ireland. It will also of the Bill. take off what some people might consider undue I spoke at Second Reading, and since then thousands pressure. have told me of their concern. I will speak more of I intervened on my noble friend’s wind-up speech that later. If the Bill could pass to give effect to its last week and indicated that I was minded to table original purpose, it would be better to extend the amendments to this effect. He responded very graciously. period because, apart from anything else, at present The amendments are now before us and I very much Northern Ireland is on holiday. For example, I was hope that the Committee will see them as non- trying to call the Minister through the Northern Ireland controversial, giving more time to the parties and Office this morning, but all the numbers seemed not to people of Northern Ireland to restore proper devolved work. I could not get anyone, and my suspicion is that government and taking away the ever-increasing threat this is a public holiday in Northern Ireland and that is of direct rule, which no one who cares about Northern why I was unable to get him. That tells you something Ireland and who was excited by what happened nearly about rushing a Bill that will make such a profound 22 years ago wants to see happen. I trust that my noble constitutional change through your Lordships’ House friend will be able to give me a very satisfactory answer this week. The talks seem to have been very difficult, to these amendments. I am grateful to my noble friend but they are being conducted by the Government. and the noble Baroness for supporting them and I beg They have been facilitated and enabled by the to move. Government, and the Minister has told us how committed they are to these talks and the future creation of a 3.15 pm Northern Ireland Executive, which would allow the Lord Trimble (Con): My Lords, I rise to support the Assembly to go back and give us a functioning amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Cormack Government. They are vital to our future. They are, in for the reasons that he gave in moving it. It is very wise the context of Brexit, critical to the peace process and to give more time for this. I notice that he is suggesting to the peace, stability and economic prosperity of the 13 January instead of 31 October, which gives a couple United Kingdom. I am very pleased to support the of extra months, but I rather like the idea of putting amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack. down 10 April and reminding people that it is the anniversary of the making of that agreement, which, Baroness Harris of Richmond (LD): My Lords, I when it was mooted, was agreed to by referenda with regret to tell the Committee that the Liberal Democrats substantial majorities. The effect of that has not gone cannot support these amendments. Northern Ireland away. It is generally assumed in Northern Ireland that has already been without an Assembly, a devolved that agreement provides the basis for the local Executive and effective decision-making for far too Administration. long. We are only reluctantly supporting 21 October, Unfortunately, others are trying to undermine the as I have said, and our hope is very much that the Bill agreement. Indeed, the worst of those trying to undermine will not be needed at all. the agreement—thankfully, at the moment it looks as As we have heard, there have already been nine though they will be unsuccessful—are the European weeks of constructive talks. Now is not the time to Union, the Irish Government and our own Government. take that pressure off Northern Ireland’s political That is precisely what they are doing. I shall not go parties—in fact, we must keep the pressure on. We into great detail, although I can do so. I have been want devolved government restored to Northern Ireland scribbling on this subject and something might emerge as quickly as possible, and these amendments are not shortly, so I shall not start at this stage. We are not into the right way to go about things. a filibuster yet but, if the need comes, I am prepared to engage at some length on what I have just said. Putting in the date that reminds people of the agreement Lord Hayward (Con): I support what the noble might, I hope, be an incentive to those who should be Baroness, Lady Harris, has just said—in contradiction working to restore the Administration so that we have to what Lord Cormack said. I would support his no further need of this legislation. We know that, amendment if I believed there would be a benefit in because of the length of the hiatus in the institutions, going beyond 31 October to a date some time after the hope is not all that great, but it is worth reminding Brexit. However, there is serious advantage in having a people of this and perhaps giving somebody’s conscience target date before the Brexit date. Many of us in this a prick ever so slightly on the subject. House think all sorts of complications may arise from 31 October, whatever format we leave the European Baroness O’Loan (CB): My Lords, it is a pleasure to Union in. A target date before then is therefore sensible. follow the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, who, as a Nobel As I said at Second Reading last week, it has been Peace Prize winner, is one of the architects of the just over 1,000 days since the Dissolution of the Good Friday agreement. I pay tribute to him for his Northern Ireland Assembly in early 2017. It has been tireless work for peace in Northern Ireland over so a lot longer since the last vote on same-sex marriage, many years. in which a majority of Members of the Northern 15 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 16

[LORD HAYWARD] Bill as it stands means that we can go on to January, Ireland Assembly voted in favour of introducing it. though I hope we will not have to do so. But Parliament Like the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, I oppose this is losing patience in all this. amendment. Decisions must be made in Northern Ireland by Ministers of one sort or another. I would be utterly Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab): As indeed does the opposed to the reintroduction of direct rule. As a Labour Party. I understand the rationale behind the former direct rule Minister, I always felt that I should amendments. We are in the holiday season—marching not be taking those decisions. But we cannot go on season. There is no Prime Minister, there could well be like this. That is why the Opposition will support the a new Secretary of State and Brexit looms over everything. Government on this issue and not, I fear,the amendment It is not exactly the best time to try to come to an of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and his noble agreement. I understand the logic, but my fear—expressed friends. by other Members of the Committee—is that there is a problem of drift. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern The noble Lord, Lord Trimble, referred to the Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Duncan of Good Friday agreement; he will remember when Senator Springbank)(Con):MyLords,thenobleLord,LordMurphy, Mitchell said that he was going home on 10 April. He said that Parliament is losing patience. It is more had had enough and put down a deadline. It was serious than that. The people of Northern Ireland are ultimately because of that deadline that the political losing patience with this process. In our Bill today, we parties and Governments in Northern Ireland eventually seek to give a little more time—to extend the deadline came to a conclusion. If we take away a deadline, we that falls in August to October, with the potential for take the pressure off the parties and the Government. an extension onward to January.In so doing, we recognise The parties obviously have a huge responsibility in the value of a deadline; it is required to ensure a trying to ensure a resolution. As I said at Second consequence for those at the table if there is a failure. Reading, the issues that they have to resolve in Belfast The first step, if there is indeed a failure, will necessarily at the moment pale into insignificance compared to be an election in Northern Ireland and thereafter, that those that had to be decided 22 years ago. There is step that none of us here would wish to take: towards nothing preventing this happening other than basic direct rule. mistrust. I worry that the whole thing will inevitably My noble friend Lord Cormack puts forward his drift towards direct rule if we keep on extending. amendment in the correct spirit, as he always does in these matters. In many ways, I welcome what he is Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con): I can see the trying to do: he is exactly trying, as we have tried for logic—and, indeed, the power—of the noble Lord’s some time, to give space for the parties in Northern argument about a deadline leading to a resolution. Ireland to reach the necessary steps and conclusions But can he explain why he is not taking exactly the to form an Executive. But there comes a point when same view on Brexit? you cannot keep kicking that can down the road. The parties in Northern Ireland must recognise that there Lord Murphy of Torfaen: That is because we are not can no longer be an absent Government, or a situation dealing with Brexit at the moment, but with Northern in which we here are called upon to do the bare Ireland. Had we resolved the Northern Ireland situation minimum to keep ticking over the Government and over the past two years, we would possibly have resolved governance of Northern Ireland. the backstop issue. Had we done that, Brexit could I believe these deadlines give enough time for those have been much easier. However, the Government parties to come together—and they are close together— have not been negotiating well on either issue. and to reach the resolution they require. If they fail to I do not hold huge confidence in our new Prime do that, we will have to act. My right honourable Minister—assuming it will be Mr Johnson—or his friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has interest in Northern Ireland. However, I hope that the today travelled back to Northern Ireland to try to Secretary of State, whoever that might be, will be able move these matters forward. There can be no let-up in to concentrate on the issues in front of us. The Irish the pressure or, indeed, the presence. I welcome the and British Governments are joint guarantors of the contributions of all noble Lords in this debate and Good Friday agreement. They must therefore do an previous debates to try to move these matters forward. awful lot more over the coming weeks to ensure that Ultimately, this is a matter for Northern Ireland. these dates are met. While I understand the sentiment behind the amendment —to give that little bit more time and that safety valve, We have suggested, for example, that there should should it still be required—unfortunately, I do not on be an independent adjudicator or chairman such as this occasion believe that that will deliver. Only a George Mitchell, and all-party meetings—not just deadline will deliver, and I believe that deadline should meetings of the two parties—to resolve these issues. be sooner rather than later. I recognise the landscape Above all, there must be constant pressure on the two in which these deadlines fall; it is not where we wish Governments, who must constantly be present, at the to be. highest levels in Belfast to resolve this situation. There is always a reason why we cannot come to a conclusion in Northern Ireland—there always has been: elections Baroness O’Loan: Is the Minister aware of what has for this, elections for that, marching season or whatever happened with deadlines in the past in Northern Ireland, it might be. We cannot go on like this. Of course, the and that they quite simply do not work? Is he aware 17 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 18 that the former chair of the talks, George Mitchell, exactly what he is saying. But that may be a discussion said that there must be talking until they are ready to for another time. If he will allow me, I shall return to reach an agreement? That was the advice he gave to me the amendment in hand. when I was heading off as a peace envoy. We cannot With some regret, I say to my noble friend Lord set deadlines and expect peace to be made and talks Cormack that I hope he will understand that I am and the Assembly to continue. Is the Minister aware of asking him to withdraw the amendment, not because that? it is not necessary to have time, but because we need to balance out that time—the carrot—with the stick of a Lord Duncan of Springbank: I am fully aware of deadline. We need to make sure that we are making that, but I am also aware of how long there has been progress to allow for the necessary secondary steps—an no government in Northern Ireland, and that that election to take place and so forth—in good time. cannot continue. It cannot continue because there are Otherwise we will reach ever more frequent deadlines things that need to be done: not the issues being dealt and anniversaries relating to the absence of an Executive with inside those rooms, but issues such as health, in Northern Ireland, which the people of Northern education, schools and agriculture—the list recited by Ireland can, unfortunately, little bear. the noble Lord, Lord Empey, during our last discussion on the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, said the Lord Cormack: My Lords, I always listen carefully same thing. We cannot allow this to continue. What to what my noble friend says, but on this occasion I we need now is good governance in Northern Ireland. have to say that I believe he is making a mistake. The This is an opportunity for those parties, within the calendar is such that, as the noble Baroness,Lady O’Loan, extension foreseen in the Bill, to deliver on that. If pointed out, we are in the holiday season already in they cannot do so in that time there will be consequences, Northern Ireland, and we are about to enter a period and we must address those sooner rather than later. of recess in this Parliament. We also have the looming Brexit date. Most importantly, elements have been 3.30 pm injected into the Bill in the other place—we will be Lord Hain (Lab): I very much sympathise with the dealing with them later today—which create a much Minister’s sentiments and the logic of his arguments more difficult Bill and a much more difficult situation but, on the subject of focusing minds, may I ask him in Northern Ireland. These are highly sensitive and to consider that the Government have already docked difficult issues. The very future of devolution as a Assembly Members’ salaries a bit? To be honest, I concept is at stake. I believe that the dates that I think that was water off a duck’s back. He should be suggest in my amendments would create a much more willing to consider the funding that goes to parties in realistic timetable. Stormont for their Assembly operations, together with I am one of those who believe in the convention—it their staffing allowances, which amounts to millions is certainly not a rule—that one does not normally of pounds, and to say that if this continues, their staff vote in Committee in this House. In moving amendments will need to be given proper notice of the end of their I have always honoured that convention, and I will do service—and that that will be the consequence of so again today. However, I cannot promise that I will failing to agree. That was something I did in 2006-07, not return to this issue on Report in 48 hours’ time, and it did focus minds. when colleagues will have had the chance perhaps to reflect on the totality of today’s debate. I think they Lord Duncan of Springbank: The noble Lord again will then realise that a part of the United Kingdom brings his experience to the debate. We cannot keep that needs handling with acute sensitivity and that funding futility, however that manages to manifest does not willingly respond to the deadline philosophy itself. There will be consequences if we cannot move perhaps ought to be given a little more time. For the these matters forward, and they need to be felt by moment, though, I beg leave to withdrawthe amendment. those who are affected directly inside those rooms. I Amendment 1 withdrawn. will take away the noble Lord’s point and think it over. Clause 1 agreed. Lord Trimble: My apologies for interrupting the Minister, but following on from what has just been Clause 2: Limited power to further extend period for said about salaries for people who are not doing what Executive formation they should be doing, could that principle not be Amendments 2 to 5 not moved. extended to the other end of the building? It would have a significant effect if it were, because for a certain Clause 2 agreed. party that does not send its Members to carry out their tasks in this building, that money is then diffused Clause 3: Progress reports into the funding of that organisation as a whole. It would bring significant pressure to bear if we were to Amendment 6 apply that principle to the other end of the building, Moved by Lord Anderson of Ipswich and we would see quite significant movement as a result. 6: Clause 3, page 2, line 16, at end insert “, which shall be considered by each House of Parliament in accordance with subsection (2A).” Lord Duncan of Springbank: The noble Lord takes me into even deeper waters—and we are only in the Lord Anderson of Ipswich (CB): My Lords, Clause 3 first half hour of what may well be a long day. I already provides for the publication of regular reports understand the point he makes, of course; I appreciate on progress towards the formation of an Executive in 19 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 20

[LORD ANDERSON OF IPSWICH] between that situation and what is proposed now is Northern Ireland, and for those reports to be laid that it was a course that the House of Commons before Parliament—one by 4 September and another desired and was prepared to see go through. by 9 October, with further reports at intervals of no more than 14 days. Amendments 6 and 7, which have support from all parts of the House, require those Lord Cormack: Would the noble Lord also remind reports to be debated in both Houses, pursuant to the Committee that in 1948 there was, relatively speaking, Motions to be moved within five calendar days of a handful of Members in this House sitting on the each report being laid. I hope that there will be as few Government Benches, and several hundred on the of those reports as possible, because when they stop it Conservative Benches as the Opposition? will be because the Executive have finally been formed. I hope also that the debates that these amendments Lord Anderson of Ipswich: I am very grateful to the provide will help to keep up the pressure for that noble Lord for the point he makes. However, getting long-overdue development. hung up on an entirely different precedent from 1948 However, let there be no doubt about the main and suggesting that it might be in some way determinative purpose of the amendments. They are defensive of the position which we are now asked to contemplate fortifications against the possibility—unlikely, no doubt, is, I would suggest, too ludicrous to bear. but pointedly not disavowed by the leading candidate— that the next Prime Minister will advise Her Majesty Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab): It may help to to prorogue Parliament for the express purpose of remind the Committee that the position to which the achieving a no-deal Brexit to which Parliament is 1948 prorogation gave effect was the commitment of opposed. I am no enthusiast for procedural gambits— the Government’s 1945 election manifesto, which had today of all days, we should be wary of anything that overwhelming support from the House of Commons. is not cricket—but to my mind these amendments are abundantly justified by the extraordinary gravity of what is apparently being contemplated. Lord Anderson of Ipswich: The noble Baroness makes This would not be a standard prorogation of another very good point. I refer to 1948 simply to say, Parliament. The purpose of the prorogation extending first, that prorogation has been controversial in the beyond 31 October would be to bring about an irreversible past, and, secondly, that it pales into insignificance change not just to our trade relations but to our compared with what we are now asked to contemplate. central political and economic alliance, without putting Those who contemplate prorogation not only are anything in its place. If the House of Commons were heedless of the sovereignty of Parliament but risk to give its democratic approval to such a momentous plunging the monarchy into the heart of an intense step, of course it must happen—nothing in these political dispute. We saw how this could happen in amendments would impede, or is intended to impede, Canada in 2008, when the Governor General, as the that—but for Parliament to have its voice removed representative of the Crown, was required to adjudicate precisely because of its anticipated opposition would on a request for prorogation that was widely seen to be be astonishing, unconstitutional and without precedent politically motivated, and only granted it subject to an in recent times. undertaking given by the Prime Minister. I appreciated I accept of course that prorogation has attracted the dry understatement of Catherine Haddon of the controversy in the past. A technical use of it was made Institute for Government when she said last week: in 1948 to fulfil the requirement in the Parliament Act “Aconstitutional showdown between Parliament and the executive 1911 that a Parliament Bill be approved by the Commons of the order of the Civil War is definitely something that the in three successive Sessions. In that case, though, a palace would prefer not to be dragged into”— clear majority of MPs desired the legislation to pass but she made a serious point. and were in favour of prorogation for that purpose. If agreed, these amendments will serve two purposes: That episode pales into insignificance when compared the sending of a political message and the sharpening to what it seems is now so casually contemplated: a of a legal challenge such as that already mooted by direct assault on the sovereignty of Parliament itself, Sir John Major, should it be needed as a last resort. aimed at circumventing its will irrevocably on one of My noble friend Lord Pannick made a powerful case the central questions of our time. in the Times last month for the proposition that the courts, if invited, would come to the rescue of parliamentary sovereignty, as they did on the basis Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, is the noble of the noble Lord’s submissions in the Miller case. Lord right to describe what happened in 1948 as a Over 30 years, I have learned to bet against the noble technical matter? It was moved by a Labour Government Lord only rarely and I would not do so on this to impose their nationalisation of British steel, which occasion. One who has done so is the legal academic was opposed by this House, and to remove the ability Robert Craig, who recently suggested that the courts of this House to delay the legislation. How can that be would decline to intervene because, described as a technical matter? “there is no particular statutory provision that would be frustrated by prorogation”. Lord Anderson of Ipswich: What happened in 1948 To the extent that there may be merit in that view—and was a prorogation to give effect to the provision of the I accept that absolute certainty in this area is difficult Parliament Act 1911 that approval of the Commons to achieve—that is all the more reason for supporting was needed in three successive Sessions.The key distinction these amendments. 21 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 22

I regret that it has been necessary to table them in not minded to take part in this Bill, though I am the context of this Bill, but they will put beyond doubt troubled by the high-handed intervention in Ulster the resistance of Parliament to an undemocratic and affairs and other parts of the Bill by MPs in another profoundly discreditable device. I beg to move. place, and will be listening carefully to what my noble friends say later. Viscount Hailsham (Con): My Lords, I rise very I tabled my amendment because I am concerned by briefly to support the amendment which the noble the attempt to hijack a Northern Ireland Bill to—let Lord, Lord Anderson, has argued for so eloquently. us be blunt—stop the UK leaving the EU on 31 October This amendment, to which I set my name, has only or to weaken our negotiating position. It was a move one purpose: namely, to make it more difficult— instigated by my right honourable friends Mr Grieve and Sir Oliver Letwin. They were supported by the Lord True (Con): My Lords, if I may, I tabled an usual galère of referendum-deniers and pushed towards amendment to this amendment, which I believe under the line by the votes of more than 220 Labour MPs. procedure should be taken at the earliest opportunity. Yes, Labour again: with 76% of the votes for Mr Grieve, Labour has been, since 2017, the single greatest political Viscount Hailsham: I am very happy to sit down. force obstructing Brexit. This amendment does not touch the call for progress The Countess of Mar (CB): My Lords, we are reports, but it prevents exaggerated machinery being speakingtoAmendment6atthemoment.Theamendment added for repeated debates, which some have admitted is to Amendment 7. is to stop Brexit on 31 October. Sir Oliver Letwin declared that these amendments would “prevent Lord True: Sure. Okay. Prorogation”, and we have heard that argument today. But Mr Grieve freely admitted that his aim was to 3.45 pm prevent Brexit on 31 October. Both rather arrogantly took it for granted that if they were defeated—as they Viscount Hailsham: I am very grateful to the noble were—your Lordships’ House would act as they Countess, Lady Mar, for her intervention. Perhaps I instructed, and hey presto, here we are with Amendment 7. might revert to where I started. Your Lordships’ House is again invited to be the I rise very briefly to support the amendment to doormat for a defeated party in the other place. which I was very happy to put my name, which was so clearly advocated by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson. The motive for all this is clear, whatever the pretence. As he said, its only purpose is to make it more difficult— One of the two men likely, though not certain, to impossible, I would like to think—for a Prime Minister become our next Prime Minister has said that he to prorogue Parliament for an improper purpose: namely, would honour the verdict of the referendum and take to prevent the House of Commons from challenging, Britain out of the European Union on 31 October. and perhaps overriding, the decisions of Ministers The tablers of this amendment want to stop him. with regard to Brexit. The fact that in a parliamentary Some will tell us today, as we have heard already, “Oh, democracy we have to contemplate such a possibility it is nothing to do with Brexit. It is all about protecting is truly lamentable, especially when the party in office Parliament”—the very Parliament they wish to remain is the Conservative Party, which I have supported in subjected to the superiority of EU law. Is it nothing to and out of Parliament for 40 years, and my family has do with Brexit? I really do wonder. for much longer. But that is where Brexit and the The noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, who personality of Mr Johnson have brought us. spoke eloquently, states on his website that he is an EU Most Members of this House, not least those of us law nerd and veteran of more than 150 cases before who have served in the House of Commons, know the ECJ. He argued that, even if Brexit were delayed, that such an action would subvert the foundations of the British people did not need to be given the chance parliamentary government. As the noble Lord reminded to vote in EU elections—“Do not let the people speak”. us, it would also involve the Monarchy in an intensely The noble Lord described as moving my noble friend partisan controversy. We must take every proper and Lord Hailsham’s words, which were that Brexit was an available step to frustrate that possibility.This amendment act of national self-harm that moved him to anger, addresses that purpose, and it is in that spirit, and for shame and distress. We may safely conclude that the that reason, that I commend it to your Lordships’ noble Lord, Lord Anderson, is not an enthusiast for Committee. Brexit. My noble friend Lord Hailsham has always been Lord Newby (LD): My Lords, I invite the noble open. From the outset, he declared his wish to frustrate Lord, Lord True, to speak. All amendments are in the Brexit, as did the noble Lord, Lord Newby. I do not same group, and although the noble Countess, Lady Mar, know about other noble Lords, but I have never seen said that the Amendment 7 had not been moved, it has the name of the noble Lord, Lord Newby, on an been spoken to. If the noble Lord, Lord True, wishes amendment to do with the EU and concluded that it to speak now, that would be appropriate. might be about advancing our exit. This amendment is designed to do one thing: to make it harder to leave Lord True: I thank the noble Lord. I think it would the EU on 31 October. If, in the light of 17.4 million be helpful for the House to hear the other side of the votes in a referendum and the result of the European river speak, as it were—the minority that we are. I was elections, your Lordships’ House wishes to align itself 23 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 24

[LORD TRUE] Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB): As—I feel I should with that objective, so be it. Our names will all be state—the husband of a former partner in Mishcon de counted in the Division lists. Perhaps the days of this Reya, can I ask the noble Lord, with his distinguished House will then also be counted. record of parliamentary and public service, how he would like to limit the ambit of judicial review, which The smokescreen of this amendment, as we have is the way in which citizens challenge administrative heard, is all about stopping Parliament being prorogued, action that has been called into doubt? so Parliament can have a say. Make no mistake that my right honourable friend Boris Johnson—as has Lord True: Whether judicial review should be limited been made clear by my noble friend Lord Hailsham—is will be a matter for whichever judge the case is put the target of this, as he is the target of a relentless before. My submission is that this is an inappropriate campaign of personal vilification. Mr Johnson, it is use. The irony when it comes to judicial review is that said, wants to prorogue Parliament to “force” Britain most JRs of Jeremy Corbyn would come from the out of the EU. Mr Johnson, of course, has said no Labour Party itself. such thing, but we have since had the spectacle of a former Prime Minister, himself responsible for the Amendment 7 is not a question of allowing Parliament longest political Prorogation in modern times, threatening to decide on Brexit. Parliament asked the people to legal action against one of his successors to prevent decide the question; the people decided. Parliament him giving considered advice to the sovereign. Is it not voted to invoke Article 50. This Parliament, in this extraordinary for a former Prime Minister to argue very Session, voted by overwhelming majorities to that the duty to advise the Crown should be taken leave the EU. Parliament has set the law of the land away from the elected Prime Minister and given to that we should leave on 31 October. It is not a question unelected judges? of anyone stopping Parliament deciding; Parliament has already decided. We are now told that, seven days before seeing the sovereign, a Prime Minister must send a letter to Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con): My Lords— Mishcon de Reya, which I gather is a law firm. I count myself fortunate to have had no dealings with it and, after this, I intend none. Who elected it? We were told Lord True: I need to make progress, but I shall take that what a Prime Minister advises a sovereign must one more intervention. be subject to judicial review. What next? Will the Supreme Court require and subpoena transcripts of Baroness McIntosh of Pickering: I am trying to the weekly Audience to find out the purport of the follow my noble friend’s thoughts. Is he arguing in advice the Prime Minister is giving? Will the Prime favour of an elected judiciary, or does he uphold the Minister’s advice have to be accompanied by an rule of law that we currently enjoy in this country? explanatory note from the noble Lord, Lord Pannick? Does he not accept that, while a majority voted to leave the European Union, we have yet to decide by a Viscount Hailsham: Will my noble friend tell your majority the process by which we do so? Lordships whether he favours suspending Parliament to prevent the House of Commons discussing, challenging Lord True: My Lords, I construe the statute law and overriding the decision of Ministers? Where does that lies before us and have expounded it to the he stand on this matter? Committee just now. Amendment 7 is a final clutching at straws by Lord True: I will come to Prorogation latter. It is hard-line remainers to obstruct, delay and prevent this reasonable to deploy an argument; it is also reasonable country doing on 31 October what its people have not to accept an imputed wish. Who can impute the asked. I submit that this House should have none of it. purpose of a Prime Minister in advising on a Prorogation? On Prorogation, which Sir Oliver Letwin—and, it I ask: will the Prime Minister’s advice have to be now seems, others—want to prevent, we have already accompanied by an explanatory note from the noble endured in this pestilential, shameful Session, which Lord, Lord Pannick—who we understand has been has so damaged the image of Parliament and trust in retained in this matter—telling Her Majesty what she politics, the longest parliamentary Session since the may lawfully hear and what is subject to JR by Mishcon 1640s. What judge will now dictate when or why a de Reya? Prime Minister may be permitted to advise Her Majesty The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, said she is all to bring this wearisome Session to an end? I looked at for this procedure. Has she, or the noble and learned the record. Until the change of the parliamentary year Lord, Lord Goldsmith—who will be speaking on the in 2010, and leaving out election years, Parliament matter from the Front Bench—told her leader that? was prorogued in October or November in 24 out of Can you imagine the hail of judicial reviews that 24 years since 1979. There is nothing unusual about an would rain down on the Government, led by Mr Corbyn, autumn Prorogation; what is unusual is not having an and the advice he might tender Her Majesty about the autumn Prorogation. The prerogative power to end use of the prerogative? “Ma’am, you must invite comrade the Session was left untouched by the Prorogation Act President Maduro on a state visit, grant an honorary 1867 and the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011. Parliament knighthood to Raúl Castro or appoint an ambassador could have limited or removed the power; it did not do to Hamas”. Will Mishcon de Reya ask for a letter so. It did not do so, because, until this desperate ploy about that advice? by hard-line remainers, an October Prorogation was a 25 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 26 normal part of parliamentary life. Allowing a new fact that I have given advice to one particular citizen, Government to have a new Session with a new gracious Mrs Gina Miller, and I have given the legal advice that Speech and new legislation necessary for the times was for a Prime Minister to advise Her Majesty to prorogue a normal and healthypart of parliamentary life.Everyone, Parliament for the express purpose of preventing wherever they stand on Brexit, is surely agreed that, Parliament performing its constitutional responsibilities when it comes, there will have to be new legislation would be unlawful. and time to consider it, which means a full and fresh However, we are not here today to debate the law; parliamentary Session. we are here to address, as my noble friend Lord It would be a serious mistake for your Lordships’ Anderson rightly said, what would be a constitutional House to be a party to continuing games in the House outrage. I strongly support the amendment in the of Commons. Seven days’ notice to Mishcon de Reya name of my noble friend, which is a means by which before any advice is tendered to the sovereign so that this House can prevent such an appalling eventuality. lawyers may wrangle over it is not a wise form of government to implement in the 21st century; nor is trying to prevent the calling of a new parliamentary Lord Newby: My Lords, I am extremely grateful to Session. I submit that this farrago should not be the noble Lord, Lord True, for taking up my invitation tacked on to a Northern Ireland Bill. The other place to speak before I did. Apart from enlivening proceedings, rejected it and this House should reject it, too. it has given me the chance to respond to some of the things he said. I congratulate him on having a very 4 pm acute and astute understanding of the policies of the Lord Pannick (CB): My Lords, I very much look Liberal Democrats when it comes to Brexit. These are forward to serving with the noble Lord, Lord True, on not exactly secret, but he got them to a T. your Lordships’ Constitution Committee, to which he One thing, however, that I think the noble Lord was has recently been appointed. He will bring, I think it is wrong about was the suggestion that because we want fair to say, a fresh perspective to our deliberations. the people to decide on Brexit, and we would prefer it I am very sorry that the noble Lord does not appear if they decided they did not want Brexit, we are to understand the constitutional impropriety of a saying—far from it—that there should be no vote in Prime Minister advising Her Majesty that Parliament September in the Commons about a no-deal Brexit. I should be prorogued for the express purpose of preventing would welcome such a vote. This amendment, this Parliament expressing its views and taking action to procedural gambit, is necessary only because we believe prevent a no-deal Brexit. It is the motive for which it is reasonable to take precautions against the new such advice would be given that distinguishes such Prime Minister preventing the Commons having a advice, and such Prorogation, from the examples he vote. The only reason for it is that everybody in your gave. The point is a very simple one. Lordships’ House knows that, if the Commons votes I also much regret that the noble Lord sees fit to on a no-deal Brexit, it will vote it down. The only way deprecate citizens of this country taking legal action you get that outcome is by some kind of chicanery: the to challenge the legality of conduct of the Prime chicanery of proroguing Parliament purely for that Minister— political purpose. We believe, as does the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, and the other signatories to the Lord True: Will the noble Lord give way? amendment, that that would be an improper use of Prorogation. Lord Pannick: Can I just finish the sentence? The The noble Lord, Lord True, said that this Session noble Lord referred as a matter of criticism, as he sees has gone on far too long. Perhaps it has. I should be it, to unelected judges deciding matters. Judges are delighted to have Prorogation on 1 November, but deciding the law of the land: that is their job and their Prorogation requires a Prime Minister with a plan and responsibility. I think it is shameful, if I may say so, a Queen’s Speech with some substance. If the incoming that a Member of this House should deprecate that Prime Minister has such a plan and such a speech by 1 process and the rule of law on which we pride ourselves. November, the entire country will be delighted. We fear that there is nothing but vacuity where there Lord True: My Lords, I will deal with the noble should be a programme and that Prorogation will Lord’s condescending condemnations later. I ask him continue far beyond 31 October or 1 November because to withdraw the statement that I deprecated the act of the Government do not know what to put in a Queen’s any citizen. I ask him what citizen I attacked in any Speech. part of my speech. It is extraordinary that your Lordships’ House is having to resort to a procedural gambit in order to try Lord Pannick: I am not referring to particular to prevent a Prime Minister subverting the constitution. citizens; I am referring to the very clearly expressed That sort of thing happens in tinpot dictatorships. We statement, which I heard and I think other noble go around the world saying, “Of course, it does not Lords heard, that it is inappropriate and wrong for happen here because we are so much more grounded “unelected judges”—those were his words—to decide in constitutional principle. No, it could not happen on the law of the land. That is their job. We pride here”. The truth is that the incoming Prime Minister ourselves on the rule of law in this country, and that is has not ruled out such a thing. It would have been very a fundamental element of the rule of law. I say that easy for him to have said, “Of course, I would never not just because I have an interest in this matter: my contemplate such a step because I know that it would noble friend Lord Anderson of Ipswich referred to the be a constitutional impropriety and shameful for our 27 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 28

[LORD NEWBY] Lord Cormack: I accept the result of the referendum, democracy”, but he has refused to say that. What are as my noble friend knows only too well, but the people we expected to do? Just sit on our hands and trust in did not vote to leave without a deal. The amendment the good sense of the incoming Prime Minister? There would make sure that if the country leaves without a may be some people in the Conservative Party prepared deal, it leaves without one but with parliamentary to do that, but it does not extend much beyond that. approval. That is the substance of the amendment. That is why we have an amendment which is a procedural gambit in a Bill about Northern Ireland: Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I turn to the use of the because it is all we have. We have seen no other way to phrase, “leaving without a deal”. Deals have already put something on the statute book to prevent the been made on citizenship, flying planes and access to constitutional principles of this country being ripped ports. There is no deal. If my noble friend is saying up. It is of course unsatisfactory to do that, but it is that we must defend parliamentary democracy by because we are in an extremely unsatisfactory position. voting for a deal in the form of the withdrawal agreement, That is why we strongly support the amendment. which was overwhelmingly rejected, I think that he has got himself into something of a tangle. It is totally Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, I support my inappropriate for this amendment to be added to a noble friend Lord True in his amendment and congratulate fast-track Bill about Northern Ireland. The amendment those noble Lords who have spoken against it and in would pursue some will-o’-the wisp notion that Parliament support of Amendment 7—I note that quite a few of will somehow need to be prorogued so that we can them are lawyers—on their honesty in admitting that leave the European Union on 31 October. Parliament this is some kind of trick or gambit to frustrate the has already voted overwhelmingly for us to do that will of the British people, who voted overwhelmingly and 31 October is the deadline which has been set by for us to leave the European Union, and to frustrate the European Union. the law and the decision taken by both Houses of I give way to my noble friend. We have all the usual Parliament. I know that there is a difficulty in the suspects in this debate. House of Commons in so far as three times as many Members of Parliament voted to remain as voted to leave, but the fact is that Parliament passed the legislation Baroness Altmann (Con): The point that my noble to require people to take that decision and the Government friend is skirting around is that Parliament—both this of the day gave an undertaking that that decision House and the other place—has voted against leaving would be respected. I am happy to give way to the the EU without an agreed deal. That is why we are so noble Lord. disturbed that one of the potential leaders of the Conservative Party and the future Prime Minister has Lord Newby: My Lords, the Government had a refused to rule out using what would be a parliamentary date to do that: 29 March. That date has been put gambit to prorogue Parliament with the express purpose back. To claim that the possible missing of the date of of frustrating the votes in both Houses which say that 31 October is a huge impropriety to people who voted we should not leave without a deal, as that has been to leave in the referendum rather overlooks what has shown to be damaging to the economy in all the been happening in recent months. official publications.

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: We have just heard Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Does my noble friend speeches from the other side of the House against the agree that there was an overwhelming majority to pass amendment of my noble friend Lord Cormack, which a law which states that we would move Article 50 and sought to extend the deadline in respect of the Bill, leave the European Union? Parliament may have voted that it would be foolish to do so because it would take on Motions on one thing or another, and it may vote off the pressure and would mean that we were kicking on Motions between now and 31 October. However, if the can down the road. At the same time, it is perfectly Parliament wishes to change the law, it needs to pass clear that the mover of the amendment is passionately the necessary legislation. What I am objecting to is determined to prevent us leaving the European Union. the undermining of our parliamentary procedures by That is what this amendment is about. amendments such as this. I object to people seeking to I wish to make a more general point about the Bill manipulate what Parliament has already decided. If as a whole. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, welcomed we wish to change the law, we have to have a Bill that the fact that my noble friend is to join the Constitution will be passed by both Houses. The law of the land Committee, whose report on the Bill is extremely says that we will leave on 31 October and all the people damning. I have never seen a bigger Christmas tree who are now raising this straw man of a prorogation than this Bill—all sorts of things have been added. of Parliament are to my mind ignoring the fact that The Bill has been fast-tracked, which means that there Parliament has already determined by a huge majority is no opportunity to consider many of the important on the vote on Article 50 that we will leave. matters in detail. I do not blame the Government for that. The House of Commons has chosen to add a Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD): Does the noble range of issues and the whole thing is going to be Lord recognise that if we leave without a deal at the fast-tracked through this House. To my mind, when end of October, we will leave with no legal basis added to a device to try to frustrate the elected whatever on which to operate? We do not have a legal Government implementing what the people voted for agreement. In order for no deal to be agreed, Parliament in the referendum, that is deeply worrying. should have the right to vote for no deal. 29 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 30

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I do not recognise that unintended consequences. By seeking to frustrate the but I can understand why, as a member of the Liberal wishes of the people, you will put the reputation of Party, the noble Lord continues to make that kind of Parliament and the standing of this House in jeopardy. argument, just as he and his party have sought to create unwarranted scare stories throughout the Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab): My Lords, whole debate because they do not want us to leave the before the noble Lord resumes his seat—I see he European Union. I am simply making the argument already has—could he just explain why, if the matter is that a majority—17.3 million people—voted to as straightforward as he puts it to us, it has been so leave the European Union and Parliament voted difficult for his right honourable friend Mr Boris overwhelmingly to pass a law which moved Article 50 Johnson to make it clear that it does not require which means that we will be leaving on 31 October. prorogation to achieve the outcome he is looking That is the case unless the Government seek a further for—that we leave the European Union on 31 October? extension and, I think rather remotely, the European So far Mr Johnson has refused to make that clear. Can Union agrees to provide one. That is not going to the noble Lord suggest why that might be? happen. All this stuff about prorogation is yet another example Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Yes.I voted for Mr Johnson of people kicking up dust, wasting the time of this —I look forward to him becoming Prime Minister— House and Parliament and diverting the Government because he seems to understand that the first rule of from what they should be and are doing: making the negotiation is not to make any concessions in advance necessary preparations so that we have in place a series of carrying out the negotiation. It is a foolish person of arrangements that will enable us to leave the European who asks, “Will you make this or that concession?” Union and to continue to build a prosperous nation, and agrees to it along the way. in line with what the British people voted for. The very fact that this amendment is before us 4.15 pm indicates that he is up against a Parliament in which some three to one in the House of Commons wish to I do not know what has happened to it, but in the reverse—or certainly voted against—the decision of Royal Gallery there used to be a display cabinet containing the British people. I believe he will go into these a copy of Charles I’s death warrant. On it were the negotiations from a position of strength, whereas I names of all the people who thought they were putting regret to say that his predecessor went in offering their names to the execution of Charles I. In fact, they money before there was anything in return. The withdrawal were signing their own death warrants, because after agreement is an agreement to have a further negotiation the restoration every one of them was hunted down about a whole range of things, including fishing, trade and executed. Sometimes the behaviour of your Lordships’ and other matters. We will be in good hands with House, in seeking to frustrate the democratic wishes of Mr Johnson if he becomes leader of the Conservative the people, has a similarity. People in this country are Party. His approach to negotiations is entirely correct. tired of people who— Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall: My Lords, with Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP): I am so great respect to the noble Lord, I do not think he has sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but he may know answered my question. In the light of what he has just that I voted to leave the EU—and, if asked again, I said, does he believe that the use of Prorogation to would do the same thing—but I did not vote to leave bring this matter to a close is part of the incoming with no deal. There are thousands and thousands of Prime Minister’s armoury and should therefore be people like me, so it is only right that Parliament gets retained in that position? If he believes that, does he another say on this. A no-deal option is not what a lot think the use of Prorogation in such circumstances of us voted for. appropriate?

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I am most grateful to Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I recall hearing complaints the noble Baroness for the support she has given not so long ago from the Front Bench of the noble to what the majority of people in this country wanted Baroness that this Parliament should have been prorogued to see happen, but I point her to the opinion polls, earlier because not enough opposition days were being which show that hers is a minority view. Most people provided and it had gone on too long. When Parliament in our country now want this matter finished, so that should be prorogued is a matter for the Executive of we can get on with attending to the biggest issues we the day. This amendment and debate are a distraction face—whether social care, education, taxation or anything from the main issue we should be concerned about; in else—and that is what we should be getting on with. the case of this Bill, Northern Ireland and our Brexit I make one last point, which arises from what the negotiations,putting in place the necessary preparations— noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said when he wrongly implied that my noble friend was attacking a particular Viscount Hailsham: Will my noble friend give way? individual; he mentioned Gina Miller. I pay tribute to Gina Miller; she has done a brilliant job. Had it not been for Gina Miller, we would not have been forced Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: May I just deal with one into passing the legislation that, by law, requires us to point first? leave on 31 October. I say to the noble Lord moving this amendment: beware of Gina Miller and the law of Viscount Hailsham: Of course, I am so sorry. 31 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 32

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: We should be dealing his amendment because, as a parliamentarian of 34 years, with the series of arrangements that will need to be I do not like to see the rules of the two Houses of one made when we leave the European Union on 31 October. of the most distinguished Parliaments in the world I still believe it entirely possible that those people in used as part of a parlour game—as devices. Europe—we now have a new, slightly odd gang there— But then I listened to the noble Lord, Lord True, faced with the reality of a Prime Minister who is and, with great respect to him, I realised that the true determined for us to leave, will perhaps see common democrats in this debate are the noble and learned sense and we will be able to get a negotiation. It would Lord, Lord Goldsmith, the noble Lords, Lord Anderson be a foolish person indeed who answered the question and Lord Newby,and the noble Viscount Lord Hailsham, of the noble Baroness in the context of the forces who tabled this amendment. My reluctance is overcome we face. by my wishing, as they do, to sustain the law and sustain—I use that word advisedly because I am not Viscount Hailsham: My noble friend has not addressed ashamed of using it—the traditions and democratic the very question asked by the noble Baroness: that is, role of this Parliament, including the role played by what does he think about the motive behind this? If your Lordships’ House. Mr Johnson is proposing to prorogue Parliament to I fear that what is being advised to the Committee prevent the House of Commons challenging the decision by the noble Lord, Lord True, and what appears to be of Ministers, does he think that is right? in the mind of Boris Johnson, is to drive a carthorse through parliamentary procedure and simply leaves Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I do not think for a the debris as an acceptable part of what occurs. It moment that he is, and I do not think that the House shows that they do not understand the fundamental of Commons is able to challenge our leaving on constitutional nature of the referendum and the process 31 October unless it and this House pass the necessary that followed it. It was not the duty of this Parliament legislation to do so. If this House is worried about the simply to leave the European Union just like that. It timetable and the opportunity to do so, that is a much was the responsibility of this Parliament, having been bigger problem than the timetable for any Prorogation. advised by the population in the referendum to attempt to leave the European Union in a way that did not destroy the economy or the political structure of this Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, it is always a country. In my view, that requires the attention of pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, who Parliament to the very end, not the frustration of the is one of the most persuasive debaters in this House, law. as he was in the other place. However, I am concerned by what he said a moment or two ago. He seems to If I have to, I will reluctantly vote for the amendment, have forgotten that we do not have an executive form but it could all be resolved so simply. All Mr Johnson of government in this country. If it is Mr Johnson who has to do is to pick up the telephone—with a witness becomes Prime Minister,that is what he becomes—Prime or maybe several witnesses present, I hasten to add—and Minister, not president of the United Kingdom. The say to the noble Lord on the Front Bench, “I have role of the Prime Minister is surely to face Parliament, been very badly misunderstood. I give a clear undertaking the House of Commons in particular, persuade it if he that I will not prorogue Parliament so as to frustrate can and serve it if he retains its confidence. If he loses the very purpose for which it exists”. Then I would not its confidence, it becomes his duty to resign, which have to vote reluctantly for something that I do not could happen more quickly than some, particularly really like. Mr Johnson, think. Lord Adonis (Lab): My Lords, the critical issue, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: If I may respond to that which the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, would not answer point, what the noble Lord says is absolutely right, but in my noble friend’s question, is whether he actually the Prime Minister also has a duty to obey the law. favours Prorogation. It is important that we get to the The law is that we are leaving on 31 October. If substance of the issue, which is very clear. Is it a Parliament does not like what the Prime Minister responsible or legal act, in the view of the two Houses does, it can pass a Motion of no confidence, and then of Parliament, to ban Parliament from meeting to we will have a general election. If we end up with a discuss the affairs of the nation in September and general election in those circumstances, I am not sure October? That has never happened before. The noble the noble Lord will get what he wished for. Lord, Lord True, said that there have been Prorogations in October. But there is a long-established convention Lord Carlile of Berriew: The noble Lord chided the to this effect. Prorogations are for a few days before number of lawyers taking part in this debate. I have the new Session of Parliament. The Library has produced certainly practised law, but, if I may say so, and with a note that lists them all. They are of five days, six days great respect, what he has just said shows how little he or three days. In one case, it overlapped with the understands the law of which he has complained. Whitsun Recess and was for 20 days. They have been To turn back to the thread of what I was going to of 12 days, seven days and three days—always for the say, I have spent 34 of the past 36 years of my life purpose of preparing for a new Session of Parliament. as a Member of one and then the other of these two The noble Lord referred to the supposed controversy Houses of Parliament. I listened to the eloquence of of 1948. There was no controversy in 1948. The two my noble friend Lord Anderson with great attention. I Prorogations to create the additional Session required must tell him that I am extremely reluctant to vote for by the Parliament Act 1911 lasted one day each. There 33 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 34 was no controversy about the Prorogation. Of course, majority or the time to change the law before 31 October. as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said, there was In doing so, many people would lose their seats, just as controversy about the nationalisation of iron and he failed to win his in the recent election because of his steel. That was because the Conservatives did not position. want it and Labour did. It had been in the Labour manifesto and Labour sought to implement it. But Lord Adonis: That is a very silly debating point if I there was no controversy about the terms of the may say so. The key issue is that he said that he did not Parliament Act 1911. think Parliament meeting in September and October was a concern. In that case, what on earth are we Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: The noble Lord, arguing about anyway? The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, Lord Pannick, laid much emphasis on motive. The is seeking to establish in law that Parliament must motive was to prevent the House of Lords blocking meet in September and October. If the noble Lord the nationalisation. agrees with that, why on earth are we having this argument in the first place? Lord Adonis: The motive was to pass a new Parliament The only other point that needs to be made—Boris Act amending the Parliament Act 1911 under its own Johnson is clearly considering this, otherwise these provisions. An absolutely legal procedure was followed. stories would not be running and we would not be in It was pursued on the instruction, no less, of a huge this situation—is that it would be a grave constitutional majority in the House of Commons because it followed crisis if a Government were to ban Parliament from the 1945 election. meeting for two months, for the whole of September All these points are entirely spurious. The issue that and October. That is what would be involved. There is the Committee needs to address is whether it is acceptable no modern precedent for that happening and no precedent for Parliament to be banned by the Government from in the past century for Parliament not meeting in meeting in October when there are urgent affairs of October. state to be debated; namely, Britain’s membership of the European Union and what policies will be pursued Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab): Unless he calls a in that regard. I am absolutely amazed that any general election. parliamentarians think it appropriate to ban Parliament from meeting as a way of overriding what might be the Lord Adonis: I think my noble friend is referring to will of Parliament if it does meet. 1974. I have looked that up. Parliament met at the end of October 1974, having had the election. There is no 4.30 pm precedent for Parliament not meeting in October. There The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, a very skilled debater, is no precedent in Britain for a controversial use—a refused repeatedly to answer my noble friend’s question use that would not be generally accepted by most because he did not want to be on the record as saying parliamentarians—of the prerogative of Prorogation that he favours banning Parliament from meeting. He since 1831, when William IV prorogued Parliament at then said that there was a danger that, if we were the request of Earl Grey to prevent the frustration of a allowed to meet, we might seek to override decisions Dissolution, which was so radically different a case that Parliament had taken in the past. We might, for from the one we have today that it is not comparable. example, seek to change the law so that it is not The only case that I can see in any of the Dominions possible to leave with no deal on 31 October. This that corresponds to the situation we face now is from notion that it is somehow wrong for Parliament to Canada in 2008. The then Canadian Prime Minister frustrate Parliament is one of the most novel conceptions advised the Governor General to prorogue Parliament. I have ever met with. The idea that Parliament can All I can say, having looked at the circumstances of frustrate Parliament is complete nonsense. If Parliament that case, is that it was bitterly controversial. The chooses to change the law, its decision is every bit as Governor General thought long and hard about whether valid as previous decisions of Parliament in respect of to accede to the advice of the Prime Minister. It Brexit. was immediately after a general election, when the The arguments being put forward are entirely spurious. circumstances were very different. If Boris Johnson is I do not think the noble Lord himself agrees with the thinking of dragging Her Majesty into a controversy suspension of Parliament in October. He has an as deep as would be involved in banning Parliament opportunity to rise and say that he does. He is very from meeting in October, he will be doing a massive noticeably not rising to say that. Let me put words disservice not only to Parliament but to all our institutions into his mouth: I do not think he agrees with his own of state. I hope he does not go there. proposition. Let us be clear. He does not agree that Parliament should be banned from meeting in October. Lord Goldsmith (Lab): My Lords, I think it is fair to He is too much of a parliamentarian himself, having say that this has been a robust debate. Obviously, I been a Member of both Houses, to subscribe to that support the amendment to which my name has been part of the Charles I proposition. added and oppose Amendment 7A, proposed by the noble Lords, Lord True and Lord Forsyth, which Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: The noble Lord is talking would wreck that amendment. nonsense. I do not believe that Prorogation is an issue. I will deal with the arguments that have been raised He is quite right when he says that Parliament can against this amendment. I shall start with the first of change the law, but I do not believe there is either a them, which is that it is inappropriate in the context of 35 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 36

[LORD GOLDSMITH] I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord True, on a Northern Ireland. I would have thought that the question speech that succeeded in insulting everybody in this of what parliamentary oversight and intervention are House: the Liberal Democrats for not being the party possible in relation to Northern Ireland is of the that supported leaving, obviously my Front Bench and greatest importance. The Bill as it stands proposes, me—I fully expected that—his former leader, Sir John rightly, that reports will be published about the progress Major, for what he said, and others as well, including towards the formation of an Executive in Northern his current leader, as I have just been reminded. But be Ireland. Should Parliament not be there to receive that as it may; he is entitled to do that and to take those reports, to debate them, to consider them and those views. But what he said in attacking the judiciary to make recommendations on them, that would be and the rule of law was completely off target. I fully the consequence of stopping Parliament sitting during agree with the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, on this. The that period. judiciary is indeed unelected. I remember losing an I note that David Sterling, the head of the Northern important case in the House of Lords—I think that Ireland Civil Service, said only the other day: the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, may have been on the other side; he is nodding both enthusiastically and “We have lacked that ministerial voice in Whitehall that has with a smile on his face, so I would guess that he championed the cause of Northern Ireland”. enjoyed the victory—precisely because the House of So to find that Parliament was not sitting just at the Lords said in answer to my arguments, “No, we are time when the issues with which this Bill is concerned not unelected. We are there to carry into effect the law, were coming up would be a great tragedy. So it is very even though that is something that the Government much an issue which Northern Ireland should be do not want to happen at this particular time”. concerned about. Having had the privilege of serving in that role, I But of course it is broader than that. The debate know what the rule of law means. You have to defend has made that very clear. The argument that the noble things in front of an independent and sometimes Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, started with must critical judiciary. Sometimes you persuade the judges be right. If what we are talking about is the possibility and sometimes you do not. However, it is absolutely that Parliament will be banned from meeting and critical to our democracy that they remain and are not expressing views during the critical period when we attacked in any way. are leaving the European Union—I accept of course Where does that leave us? I was struck by the that the Bill says what the date is, but it is open to remark by the noble Lord, Lord True, that the judiciary Parliament to do something else if it chooses to do were not elected, so should not have a say. Of course, so—to say that Parliament should not be there at that the people who are elected are in the other place. stage is a constitutional impropriety and would be a We are talking about making sure that those in the great assault on our current constitution. elected place are there to express the views that their It is said, and it is argued by the opponents of this constituents—the people of this country—believe are amendment, that it is there to frustrate the will of the right. That is what should happen. This debate can be people in relation to leaving. Well, it cannot do that. put to an end by whoever becomes the leader of the Nobody suggests that it can do that. As one of those Conservative Party in the coming days making it clear who signed the amendment, I do not suggest that it that that will not happen—but until then, I respectfully does that. What it would do is make sure that Parliament say that this Committee should take the step of following was there at the time that decisions were being made the House of Commons by saying, “We should pass so that we did not have a situation where at the time of this amendment to make sure that Parliament is there one of the greatest decisions this country has made in and doing its job when Brexit comes around”. recent times there was simply an Executive and no Parliament to oversee or control them. That would be the greatest assault on the constitutional traditions of Lord Duncan of Springbank: My Lords, I expect which I am so proud, as are so many Members of this that in years to come constitutional scholars will study House. this debate and explore many of the arguments. I suppose that it is my purpose to return us to what As the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, knows, I admire I hope is the principal purpose of the Bill to which this his debating skills and his opinions, but he has not particular amendment has been appended. This Bill responded to the question put by my noble friend. I aims to ensure that we can restore an Executive in hope that when the Minister gets to his feet he may be Northern Ireland in good time. This is a noble aim, able to give a clear answer on whether in fact this can with which I think we all agree. all be brought to an end by a statement that there is no risk and that there will be no Prorogation. Unfortunately We ought to start by recognising that Members in I expect that that is outside his power—and I see he is the other place have already debated and voted on nodding. I suspected that was the case, and we all these issues. Of course, the Government agree that know why that is so. That would be an end to this Parliament must be kept apprised of progress towards debate. As it is, with that uncertainty as to whether restoring an Executive in Northern Ireland. The Parliament will be allowed to sit during that critical Government has already responded to the concerns period, we have to do something to allow an opinion here by agreeing to bring forward to 4 September the to be expressed about that. The gambit would not be date by which a report will be made. doing this; the gambit would be making sure that In many respects, the key issue here—which a number Parliament was not there at a time of crucial national of noble Lords raised, for perfectly understandable emergency. That would be the constitutional gambit. reasons—is the need to keep focused on what we are 37 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 38 trying to achieve through the reports we are discussing place. That is right and proper, but there are other today. That is to ensure that Parliament is kept abreast means by which it can be done; this is not the right of the ongoing aspects of the talks in Northern Ireland. vehicle by which to do it. However, I have stood here on many occasions and said that it would be inappropriate for me or my right Baroness Smith of Basildon: I thank the Minister honourable friend in the other place to give a running for giving way. I am intrigued by his argument that commentary. That is for one simple reason: we must there are other ways in which this could be done. Will give a clear and safe space in which those negotiations he expand and tell us what they are? and talks can unfold. It is perhaps not enough for us to simply say, “Nothing to see here, move on”. We Lord Duncan of Springbank: The noble Baroness need to recognise that. almost got me on that one, but she will not be surprised The votes were close in the other place, so some to know that I, too, will not be drawn on those noble Lords might argue that we should give Members matters. It is important, as we circle back to where we there an opportunity to think again. However, it is began— important to point out that the closest vote of all was on the addition of fortnightly reporting requirements, Lord Cormack: Does my noble friend the Minister which the Government lost—although noble Lords agree that it is always right that the Government are not proposing that the other place should be asked should be accountable to Parliament and not the other to think again on that one. way around, and that Parliament should never be the creature of government? These amendments tabled by noble Lords are broadly very similar to those already rejected by the other Lord Duncan of Springbank: It would be easy to place. They would require the initial progress report, answer that in a simple way, but I suspect that tucked as well as fortnightly ones thereafter, to be considered inside the question is a matter for greater constitutional by Parliament and be subject to an approval Motion. scholars than I. I stand before noble Lords not, I am However—again—in many respects, each element of afraid, as a lawyer but as a humble geologist. I therefore this has nothing to do with the situation in Northern feel ill-equipped to answer a question of that august Ireland, which has necessitated the Bill in the first nature. place. In returning to the point before us, I say that this is As we speak to one another and the people of not the right way to achieve these ends. The other Northern Ireland, it is important that we recognise place has spoken on these matters. It has spoken in a that this Bill serves a principal and singular purpose, voice which we have heard on other issues and should which is to ensure that we give an Executive the hear today. I would ask that these amendments should appropriate space to reform. not be pressed. I do not believe that they give comfort to the ongoing talks in Northern Ireland, and nor do they progress the important aspects for which those Baroness O’Loan: I thank the Minister for giving talks have been set up. way. If the Bill serves a principal and single purpose, why are the other clauses being admitted to it and why Lord Anderson of Ipswich: My Lords, I am grateful are the Government supporting them? It seems to me to the Minister and noble Lords, and for the support that this contradicts the position that the Minister has that these amendments attracted. I hope it is now clear just articulated. that it is not the purpose of this amendment to prevent the United Kingdom from leaving the European Union 4.45 pm on or before 31 October; it would not be apt, and it is not intended, to do that. I am grateful to the noble Lord Duncan of Springbank: The noble Baroness Lord, Lord True, for his research and I am delighted raised those points before. I say once again that the to have him as a social media follower, but my views question of scope is not for this House; it was a on the wisdom or otherwise of Brexit are no more to question determined by the other place. On that point, the point of this amendment than are his. it was not the Government or Opposition who won or I listened carefully to everything that was said and lost; it was the will of the other place taken in a vote of it still seems inescapable that, if there are any fetters at conscience. There was no government Whip whatever all on the absolute power of the Government in this in the other place. Those majorities were singular and matter, those fetters must be in the courts, in Parliament significant; we as a Government heard them and must or, as a last resort, in the person of the monarch. I did respond. not detect any enthusiasm from those who spoke On the issues that we are discussing here, the majorities against the amendments for any of those options. I were not significant or singular; indeed, they were found myself wondering what checks or balances on remarkably anything but. I stress, as I say these things the authority of the Executive they were minded to now, that we need to recognise that which is germane acknowledge —but there we are.In short, I am undeterred to the issues in Northern Ireland and that which is a by what I have heard. It may be—it is very likely—that vehicle for another purpose—perhaps a Brexit purpose, I will come back to this on Wednesday. But, for the divorced and distant from the thing we are here to time being, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. discuss. I do not doubt that noble Lords will seek to find by other means a way to ensure that the future Amendment 6 withdrawn. leader of this country, whoever that individual may be, is held to account by both the other place and this Amendment 7 not moved. 39 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 40

The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler): Amendment 7A that applied to the rest of the United Kingdom should falls as it is an amendment to Amendment 7. be extended to Northern Ireland. I pay tribute to Naomi Long, who has worked tirelessly to try to bring Amendment 7A not moved. that equivalent transparency to Northern Ireland. The provision ensured that, at a point when the Amendment 8 Secretary of State determines, any donation of £7,500 from a single source to a political party from January Moved by Lord Bruce of Bennachie 2014—that is the significant date—could be subject to 8: Clause 3, page 2, line 21, at end insert— publication. The political parties in Northern Ireland “( ) The report under subsection (1) must include a report and their donors have therefore known that donations on progress made towards preparing legislation to received from 1 January 2014 could eventually be provide for transparency of political donations and published and scrutinised. That is important: this is loans from 1 January 2014.” not something about which they should express any surprise. Lord Bruce of Bennachie: My Lords, Amendments 8 However, when the order was eventually produced and 22 are Liberal Democrat amendments in my name last year, it provided for transparency of political and that of my noble friend Lady Harris of Richmond. donations and loans only from July 2017. At the time, They are important, and I hope the House will give we on these Benches tabled a regret Motion simply them serious consideration and support. Indeed, I asking why that was the case, given what was in the hope that the Minister may even be able to accept 2014 Act. This is important because, during the period them. 2014 to 2017, there were two general elections and a Amendment 8 would provide that the progress reports referendum. The Electoral Commission in Northern must include: Ireland has collected the relevant data: it has the information, but without our amendment it is unable “a report on progress made towards preparing legislation to provide for transparency of political donations and loans from to release it. 1 January 2014”. Noble Lords will be aware that it came to light that, Amendment 22 contains a new clause to ensure that, if during the referendum campaign, a very significant an Executive has not been formed by 21 October, the donation of £425,000 was given to one party in Northern Government must, within three months of the progress Ireland. In the context of the highly charged debate on report being laid, introduce regulations to backdate Brexit, people should be able to know all the details the transparency of political donations and loans to of that significant donation, not least—I guess this 1 January 2014. information is known—given the reports that the donation Let us look at the political and historical context. was not actually spent in Northern Ireland but was The Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act spent elsewhere in the UK and indeed potentially 2000 provides for greater transparency of donations perverted the outcome of the referendum. This is and loans to political parties. It was widely supported, therefore not just a matter of concern regarding and it imposes restrictions on the sources of donations, transparency for the people of Northern Ireland; it is especially to prohibit foreign and anonymous donations about Northern Ireland being used as a vehicle to to political parties, and to make registered parties undermine the transparency of the law in the rest of subject to reporting requirements in respect of donations the UK. It has to be acknowledged that that is not a above a certain value. Political parties in the rest of the situation that should be allowed to continue. UK are, rightly, bound by those provisions, and they The rules are in place to shine a light on the process. have been widely quoted and enforced—to some people’s This comes at a time when, sadly, I suggest, trust and discomfort, I have to say. confidence in political parties have never been lower Many noble Lords in the Chamber this afternoon and mistrust over who is funding which political parties will know that, by cross-party agreement, political for what purpose has never been a matter of more parties in Northern Ireland were excluded from those public concern—and, it appears,legitimate public concern. provisions and therefore have not been required to Transparency should be the foundation, the bedrock, reveal the sources of their funding. I think that people on which the trust that voters can have in the democratic understood at the time that there were good reasons process should be built. We have had accusations of for that, because of concerns that the security of foreign interference in elections and referendums, not donors would be at risk if their names were made only here but in other parts of the world. We have public. But I also think that people would acknowledge seen, for example, revelations in Italy of huge amounts that the political and security context has changed of money being sought from Russia to fund a major significantly in recent years, so that exemption could political party. not be expected to continue indefinitely—especially People are therefore entitled to ask for a justification because, as I shall explain, concerns have been raised and explanation for why the Government chose the about it. date of 2017 rather than 2014, which they had indicated During the passage of the Northern Ireland they were minded to accept and for which the data has (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2014, the Government been collected. When he responded to the debate on agreed to an amendment from Naomi Long—then our Motion, the Minister stated: MP for East Belfast and now leader of the Alliance “Right now, we are not ruling out the re-examination of the Party and a Northern Ireland Member of the European period that precedes 1 July 2017. Indeed, the draft order will Parliament—to ensure that the greater transparency allow consideration of it, once we have had an opportunity both 41 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 42 to bed in the transparency order and to examine the details introduce this new clause to provide for regulations to reflected therein. We will not rule anything in or out on that ensure transparency in political donations and loans point. I stress that. It is important that we recognise it”.—[Official from 1 January 2014, if the Executive has not been Report, 27/2/18; col. 623.] formed by 21 October this year. Yet so far there has been no further consideration of this matter. In a Written Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, on 12 February this year, the Minister Lord Empey (UUP): My Lords, the proverbial visitor said: from outer space might have been somewhat surprised “The Government has no plans in place to legislate to facilitate a short time ago when we were discussing the previous the publication of pre-2017 data. We are committed to undertaking an operational review to consider all aspects of the operation of set of amendments about what piece of legislation we the donation and loans systems in Northern Ireland, to review were debating. It is the Northern Ireland (Executive whether there might be a case for further reforms”. Formation) Bill. I was so pleased to see a packed If the Minister is indeed committed to such a review, Chamber and all these people taking such a keen when will it take place? I suggest that, if he were interest in Northern Ireland, but they have deserted us minded to accept Amendment 8, he would have the all of a sudden. The great, the good and the not so opportunity to conduct such a review. Is he able to good have gone. It just shows how fickle fortune is in accept it, given that at the time of the legislation in the political arena. 2014 the Government indicated that the data would be On a more serious note, I think that there is merit in collected and that people should be aware that that this amendment. At the end of the day, since the 2014 data could be applied? date, donors have known that their details might We are committed to ensuring that there is proper potentially be released. I accept that it would not have transparency and accountability for political donations been fair to release the names of donors who donated and loans in Northern Ireland. We think that if we do before that date because they would not have known not do so then it will undermine our entire democratic at that stage that their names might end up in the system, and we are not prepared to let that happen. I public domain. There is a perfectly solid and reasonable repeat that we on these Benches regard this as a crucial case for that. Subsequent to that, people have known. issue for the integrity of the political system both in I therefore see no reason why 2017 was called into Northern Ireland and throughout the UK. It cannot account when 2014 was the kick-off date for this be acceptable that a law is allowed to sustain in Northern process. That is not an unreasonable thing to suggest Ireland that allows Northern Ireland to be used as a and therefore I am supportive of it. vehicle for donations that would be neither clear nor I would like to make a serious point about the acknowledged and could infiltrate the rest of the UK proceedings relating to the previous amendment. I am and completely undermine the legislation that applies sure that, when we talk about Prorogation, the people to the whole of the UK. On that basis, I beg to move. on the streets of Belfast talk of little else. They will be bemused that we have been caught up in this firefight which is not strictly speaking relevant to this legislation. Baroness Harris of Richmond: My Lords, I support The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, is not in his place at my noble friend on this amendment. When we were the moment, but he was more than right when he discussing this issue on 27 February last year, we made called this a Christmas tree Bill last week. In fact, it clear that we wanted any loans and donations to be Christmas implies celebration and something to look published as from 1 January 2014, not at the later date forward to, so maybe that is not the right phrase for it; of 2017, as we have already heard. We were very it is a jumble, a mess and a sorry piece of legislation, pleased to support the Transparency of Donations with all these things included. Then we find ourselves and Loans etc. (Northern Ireland Political Parties) getting involved in a national debate on a totally Order 2018 with that one proviso. It made clear that, different matter. Her Majesty’s Government will have for the first time, the Electoral Commission would be to look at this. I must say to colleagues in the other allowed to publish information about loans and donations place as well that I know things can be drawn too dating back to July 2017. The Northern Ireland tightly, but we have gone to the other extreme with this (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2014 allowed that, and legislation. However, I would be more than content to we have still not been given a satisfactory explanation support the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, as to why the Government held back from it. Lord Bruce. 5 pm Whydid we ask for this? As we have heard, conveniently Lord Browne of Belmont (DUP): My Lords, I firmly during that three-year period there were two general believe that there should be full openness and transparency elections and the EU referendum campaign. We know regarding donations and loans to all the political that, during that referendum campaign, £425,000 were parties in Northern Ireland, just as there is in the rest given to a party in Northern Ireland. I think we of the United Kingdom. As many noble Lords will be should name that party—it was the DUP.We have had aware, the Secretary of State sought the view of all the no indication from it about whether that money was Northern Ireland political parties on this matter in spent in Northern Ireland or elsewhere. January 2017. As I emphasised in February 2018, We need to know what all political parties receive in there was clear support for full transparency. However, loans and donations to avert that very real fear of only one party—the Alliance Party—took the rather money laundering—of parties receiving moneys that unusual position that the implementation of the new are in any way illegal. Our amendment simply seeks to rules should be backdated to January 2014. 43 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 44

[LORD BROWNE OF BELMONT] Amendment 22, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, I acknowledge that the earlier date was referred to would insert a new clause into the Bill compelling in the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) regulations to be made on this issue. I know that this is Act, but in my view retrospective legislation is acceptable a matter of concern to the Committee, as I have said. only in exceptional circumstances. It is not fair to We have debated more than once how we might make reveal the identities of those who made donations progress on this complex issue. assuming that the law at the time would always apply. During consideration of the transparency of donations It is strange that the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, is intent and loans order last year, we made it clear that we on reopening issues that have been fully considered in intend to work with the Electoral Commission and the House and elsewhere, rather than concentrating Northern Ireland parties to establish whether further on providing an effective framework for the future. changes are required to the existing regime. However, The treatment of foreign donations to Northern Ireland we have made no commitment to legislate further on political parties, for example, is an important and this matter. As always, on this issue it is important to unresolved issue. The Electoral Commission is in full move forward on the basis of consensus in Northern receipt of all the facts regarding donations before Ireland, and we will be consulting the parties. It is not 2014, so although I support full transparency, I believe appropriate to commit to making legislation on this that the date of 2014 is a fair way to treat this. issue before consulting the Northern Ireland parties. We intend to look at the Northern Ireland donations regime as a whole. I realise that these are difficult and Lord Murphy of Torfaen: There is something which sensitive issues and I repeat that we look to move is right about the amendments tabled by the noble forward with consensus in Northern Ireland. But we Lord, Lord Bruce: the whole of the United Kingdom cannot accept the noble Lord’s Amendment 22, and I should have similar regulations regarding transparency urge him not to move it. of donations and loans. The Committee will be aware that for decades this was virtually impossible in Northern Lord Bruce of Bennachie: I am grateful to the Ireland, because people would be intimidated and Minister for accepting Amendment 8, which, as I said, worse if their donations to various political parties does exactly what it says on the tin: it enables the were made public and they were identified as possible Government to bring forward reports about the targets. That was an obvious reason why the law in implementation of the regulations back to 2014, and Northern Ireland was not the same as it was in the rest does not prevent the Government introducing regulations of the United Kingdom. Happily,the world has changed. at a later date. I understand that the Minister is There should be regulations which are common to all unwilling to accept Amendment 22 and would like to parts of our country. reserve my position on that, but I welcome his acceptance There is an issue about people who were unaware of Amendment 8, which takes us a step further down when they gave donations that their names would be the road. We would be much happier if we knew that revealed; would they have given them if they had all the data was going to be published, but we accept known that? We must take this into account, but we that there has to be a process and consultation. must not allow Northern Ireland to be used as a back-door conduit for donations simply because the Amendment 8 agreed. law and regulations in Northern Ireland are different from those in the rest of the United Kingdom. Amendment 9 Moved by Lord Adonis Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con): My Lords, the 9: Clause 3, page 2, line 21, at end insert— noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Bennachie,raises an important “( ) The report under subsection (1) must include a report matter through Amendment 8, one that I know your on the improvement of higher education provision in Northern Ireland and the establishment of a university Lordships take a keen interest in. As he pointed out, whose principal campus is in Derry/Londonderry.” the donations and loans order that came into force last year provided complete transparency for donations Lord Adonis: My Lords, a few moments ago, the and loans made to Northern Ireland parties from July noble Lord, Lord Empey, said that the great and the 2017. At that point, we said that we would look again good had fled the Chamber. I leave him to speak for at the regime in due course to see if further changes the great but, as far as the good are concerned, there is should be made. Our feet have certainly been kept to no purer good in society than education, including the fire. I was very impressed with what has happened higher education. The issue I bring before the House is in and out of the Chamber, as outlined by the noble the state of higher education in Northern Ireland. It is Lord. in a very unsatisfactory condition. This would not I can confirm that the Government are happy to normally be a matter that detains this House, because report to Parliament on the progress that we have the Northern Ireland Assembly would be sitting and made on the issue of donations made to political the Executive would be coming forward with proposals, parties in Northern Ireland from 2014. The Government but it is now two and a half years since the Executive have no concerns in accepting the noble Lord’samendment met. Two and a half years is a large part of the time today,and I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that pupils are educated for. Two and a half cohorts of indicates that this is not unreasonable to the people students had the opportunity, or lack of it, to go to that he has been in touch with. I have also noted the university, so I make no apology for raising the issue points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Browne of in this House. Each year that we delay dealing with Belmont. higher education provision in Northern Ireland is a 45 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 46 year that many thousands of young people are denied As the noble Lord said, the decision was taken to the opportunities they should have. It is right that, in locate the second university instead in Coleraine, a the absence of an Assembly and Executive in Northern small town. The decision of the Lockwood committee Ireland, Parliament directs its attention to this issue. was to close the Magee campus, but the then Northern The issue is simple. There is an inadequate number Ireland Government thought that it would be a step of higher education places in Northern Ireland. This too far. There was a modest increase in the number is a long-standing issue, but it has been getting of places at the Magee campus, but no major new progressively worse as education participation has risen departments were located there—on the contrary, there across the United Kingdom. There are 50% more was a reduction in their number. This has been a undergraduate places per capita in England than there long-running issue since. are in Northern Ireland, and one-third of all students When I went to Derry, the business community and who have a Northern Ireland residence are studying young people said to me that the single decision which outside Northern Ireland at the moment. would do more than anything to boost the economic I have had the pleasure of going to Northern Ireland and social life of that city would be the location of a a great deal recently and talking to young people. dedicated university, for which there is masses of space, Apart from Brexit, which I have mostly been going to alongside an expansion of the number of places in the discuss, the issue they raise with me all the time is city by the University of Ulster. inadequate university provision. There are not enough These decisions are simply not being taken, but it is university places and people are put off going to worse than that: the decision on the table to locate in university because they are unable to go locally. Most Derry medical places at the University of Ulster has people, particularly the most able students, feel they now been entirely stalled by the absence of an Executive need to leave Northern Ireland to get a higher education. and an Assembly. There are no medical places in This general problem is in crisis in Derry, because Northern Ireland outside Queen’s University Belfast. there is no university with a dedicated campus there. The great city of Derry has no capacity to train There is one campus of the University of Ulster, the doctors or medical staff to degree level, because there Magee campus, which has a historic mission and has is no provision at the Magee campus of the University existed in Derry for a century and a half. But it has a of Ulster. tiny number of places and is not being expanded as it The story becomes worse than that when one delves should. I have gone through towns and cities of a into the situation. A decision has been taken to expand comparable size across the United Kingdom, and not the University of Ulster, which has campuses across detected one anywhere with fewer higher education Northern Ireland, but the greater part of the expansion places than Derry. It is true that some other towns and is taking place not in Derry but in Belfast, with a cities of a comparable size in England, Scotland and hugely expensive relocation of the Jordanstown campus Wales do not have a dedicated university, but even to the city centre—it is costing more than £200 million. where they do not, they have campuses of other I raise these issues which are not being debated and universities which provide far more places than in the discussed in Northern Ireland because there is no case of Derry. Assembly and no Executive. They are of huge concern. I was initially surprised by this because I am not versed in the history of Northern Ireland, but as I got into it, a very sorry story was revealed. In the 1960s, Baroness O’Loan: My Lords, I declare an interest: I the Lockwood commission was engaged in deeply taught in the University of Ulster. I hesitate to interrupt, controversial issues as to where the second university but one reason for the Jordanstown campus being in Northern Ireland beyond Queen’s University Belfast relocated to Belfast is that the building infrastructure should be located. I am afraid that it was a is not capable of being sustained and is not safe. straightforwardly sectarian division of opinion. One part of the community wanted— Lord Adonis: There may be very good reasons for such decisions being taken, my Lords, but that does 5.15 pm affect the fact that there is no increase in the number Lord Kilclooney (CB): I was a Minister in Northern of places in Derry. The focus of the University of Ireland during the period. The committee was headed Ulster is not in Derry.Its headquarters are in Coleraine. by Lockwood, who was an English academic. He The big expansion in which it is engaged is in Belfast. produced a report on a second university for Northern Belfast is the only place in Northern Ireland that has Ireland; he recommended not Londonderry but Coleraine. an adequate number of higher education places. This Runner-up to Coleraine was the city of Armagh. It issue is being systematically unaddressed. was not a sectarian decision; it was made by an As I have said, in the normal course of events, this impartial English academic. It is slanderous to suggest matter should be addressed by the Northern Ireland that he was sectarian. Executive and Assembly; it is not. It is tragic for Northern Ireland that it is not. Each year where it fails to be addressed means that more young people have Lord Adonis: My Lords, the statement just made by opportunities denied to them. It is therefore essential the noble Lord would be deeply contested within that this Parliament addresses the issue, particularly in Northern Ireland. One has only to look at the literature the context of the economic and social situation in the and the debate there. I respect the noble Lord’s point city of Derry, which I think most noble Lords would of view, but it is deeply contested. agree is deplorable at the moment. 47 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 48

[LORD ADONIS] date and the reports were very clear that it was not Derry has the highest unemployment rate in Northern possible or economically feasible to rebuild or modify Ireland and the lowest employment rate. Indeed, it has them on that site. Consequently, the university decided the highest unemployment rate of any city in the that it wanted to push itself into the Belfast region: we United Kingdom. When I met leaders of the business are talking about a distance of eight or nine miles community in Derry, they said that the single decision further towards the city centre of Belfast. My department that could do more than anything to boost job creation, supported it in doing that, but it was its decision, not confidence and the location of new businesses in Derry ours—it was not forced. The council of the university would be the building of a dedicated university in that and the vice-chancellor said, “This is what we want city. So I think it is right that we address this issue. For you to do for us”. We gave them the first tranche of as long as there is no Northern Ireland Assembly and money to start the work on their campus in York Executive, this is going to be a burning issue of concern Street in Belfast, which is now in an advanced stage of in Northern Ireland. construction. I look forward to the Minister’s assurance on two To deal with the particular issue in Londonderry, points if direct rule is going to continue for any length there is substance to what the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, of time—and despite the assurances given earlier today, says. I strongly support, as I know my colleagues in it looks perfectly possible that it may continue for the Assembly do, the proposal for medical students to some substantial period. First, will the Government be taught up there, because there is a shortage of unblock the decision about the creation of medical medical staff throughout the health system in Northern places in the University of Ulster’s Magee campus in Ireland. I have referred to it many times in this Chamber Derry? Could that not be taken forward next year? and we will be doing so later, so I totally support it. What is stopping that decision? Secondly, if direct rule There are funding constraints, as is always the case. continues beyond September, as appears likely, will the I also point out that it is not simply about higher Government give an assurance that they will look at education. We have rebuilt the further education estate the expansion of university places in Northern Ireland throughout Northern Ireland—it has been a herculean as an issue of urgency, so that more young people do task. That was ongoing, and we must remember that not have opportunities denied to them? I beg to move. not everything can be confined to higher education: we have apprenticeships, and a whole range of other Lord Empey: My Lords, I was the Minister responsible areas to cover. If we had more money, I suppose that for further and higher education for some three and a we could do more things, but we must remember that half years and I had to deal with what is now Ulster we cannot determine precisely where a student will go. University at some length. I visited Londonderry on a We kept our fees suppressed, not at the £9,000 level number of occasions. The Magee College was formerly that they are in England; they are probably approaching sponsored by the Presbyterian Church in Ireland. £4,000 at the moment. That was a deliberate decision Ultimately, it became a campus of the University of to try to make higher education more attainable and Ulster, as it was then called. Various pressure groups affordable. were formed, including one called U for D—University I support the fundamental point that the noble for Derry—a group of local businesspeople and others Lord makes about doing more up there to broaden the who were trying to promote a more substantial campus range of courses that can be taken. I did support it, I on the site. The university authorities talked to my think that there is widespread support in the Northern department and we looked at sites and various options. Ireland Assembly for putting the medical students up However, a whole range of other factors has to be to Londonderry, and I would support it. He must taken into account. remember that there is a supply and demand issue Northern Ireland has had the highest participation here. The number of students who could be generated rates in university education by people from disadvantaged in the immediate vicinity of the city of Londonderry is backgrounds—in excess of 41%, the highest in the limited, and not all students want to go to university United Kingdom. However, we must remember that a in their own backyard. Young people want to explore, very significant number of students are not able to go further and see different things. obtain their education, simply because of the curricular We must also analyse potential demand. That is a availability in two universities in one Province, and a primary job of the university. It must determine where number of people will inevitably move to other locations it is getting its students from. It was made very clear to for higher education. That is not necessarily a bad us what it wanted to do. It said: we want to rebuild our thing: people need to broaden their horizons and they Jordanstown campus and put it in the centre of Belfast. cannot all be kept locally. I believe it is important to Will you support us or not? It was not a question of bear that in mind, but for a population of our size to Londonderry versus Belfast—that option was not open. have multiple universities covering the spectrum that is It had made its decision. I believe that it should now needed in the current circumstances is a very big ask. proceed to support the opening of the medical facility in Londonderry. I would support that—it makes sense, The other thing to remember is that the council and it gives the city a bit of a push—but we must bear in authorities of the university came to me with their mind that decisions on these matters were taken by the own plans. I went to visit the Jordanstown campus university itself, not by the Government. and as the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, said, it was absolutely clear from all the professional advice we received that the buildings were in such a condition Lord Bruce of Bennachie: My Lords, I agree with that it was not economically feasible to modernise the noble Lords, Lord Adonis and Lord Empey, in them. They were built in the 1960s, they were out of their support for the proposed medical school in Derry, 49 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 50 which appears to have complete cross-party support. looking at the work being done across the piece and If the Northern Ireland Assembly were up and running, the frustration of the university. It has something that from everything I have heard and seen, it would be it can go ahead with, which would achieve the targets. progressing as of now. It is the lack of an Assembly I think we are talking about 80 to 100 medical students, that is the block. When I raised this previously, the which were the numbers given to me. In that context, noble Lord, Lord Duncan of Springbank, said that anything the Minister can say that would give the the Londonderry city deal might contribute to it, but people of Londonderry a more positive sense that this the question is whether that is completed or whether could go forward would be welcome. an element of government ministerial input is still required to enable full delivery to take place. Lord Murphy of Torfaen: I understand that point. This is just another example—the noble Lord, Of course the city of Derry would be enhanced by a Lord Empey, probably has a list as long as both his larger university presence. There are two very fine arms—of where problems arise. As I said, I have universities in Northern Ireland—Queen’s University, visited the Magee campus. It was an interesting visit Belfast and the University of Ulster—so all that my given all the things they are doing there, including noble friend Lord Adonis, has said is absolutely right. impressive work on artificial intelligence. As far as the We would support him in his amendment to ensure university is concerned, the building is available, it is that a report is produced on progress with university anxious to move forward and it is frustrated not provision in that part of Northern Ireland. because of a lack of support—or even, in principle, However, this Bill is about restoring the Executive because of a lack of money—but because of exactly and the Assembly in Northern Ireland, and that is the the reason we are stuck here: the lack of decision-making only way properly to ensure that these improvements capacity in Northern Ireland. are made. I fear that there is a tendency—noble Can the Minister tell us anything encouraging as to Lords will see it in the Bill—towards creeping direct whether steps can be taken that do not immediately parliamentary rule coming into our proceedings. It is depend on the re-establishment of the Assembly or, not that the Government are providing Ministers for alternatively, add another bit of pressure to re-establish Northern Ireland, rather that Parliament is asking for the Assembly? report after report on all the different issues that affect the people of Northern Ireland. Later, the noble Lord, Lord Adonis: I greatly appreciate what the noble Lord Empey, will raise a number of hugely important Lord and the noble Lord, Lord Empey, have said in issues that call for reports on matters that are for the respect of the medical school, but does he accept that Assembly and the Executive. Ultimately, the answer the issue goes much wider than that? The number of for those in the city of Derry who want these things to university places in Derry has declined since 2014 happen is to talk to those politicians who can bring from 4,658 to 4,313. That is the lowest figure by far in the Assembly and the Executive together in Northern any of the 15 towns and cities across the island of Ireland. There is a Sinn Féin MP in the city of Derry—for Ireland that have higher education provision. Does he Foyle. Perhaps he or she—I do not recall who it is agree that there is no reason whatever why Derry because they do not attend the House of Commons— should be so disadvantaged in the provision of higher should be approached, as should the Members of the education places? Assembly to get the Assembly and the Executive up and running. You can then deal with the issues affecting higher education and so on; that is the key to all of 5.30 pm this. Lord Bruce of Bennachie: I defer to the noble Lord We could talk for ever in this House and the other on the figures and I accept that there is an issue in this. place about reports and what we would like to see, but I understand the point made by the noble Lord, Lord ultimately, in the absence of direct rule— Empey, about balancing supply and demand, but, having represented a Scottish constituency for decades, Lord Maginnis of Drumglass (Ind UU): I am grateful I have to say that we are in part the beneficiaries of to the noble Lord for giving way. Having worked in that lack of places because Scotland is a popular Northern Ireland, he will realise that 90 miles takes destination for medical students from Northern Ireland. you from one side to the other. It is a comparatively Because of the mismatch, when students from Northern small place. If we are to have a medical school, what Ireland come to Scotland to study medicine, they tend on earth has happened to the medical school at Queen’s to stay, which does not help the supply of doctors for University? Other universities used to be jealous of it. Northern Ireland. We have an advantage in Scotland Since hospital services tend to be centred on Belfast—we in that we have four, or possibly five, medical schools, have seen the recent example with tests for breast if you count the undergraduate school at St Andrews, cancer—how can we justify setting up another medical and we train some 20% of the UK’s doctors. It does school? I have nothing against the city of Derry, but not always have to be a balance of local students; you how can we justify setting up another a mere 90 miles can attract students from elsewhere. Indeed, surely the away when medical care is, by and large, centred in essence of what we are trying to do in Northern Belfast? Ireland is to make it the kind of place that people want to come to and stay, along with somewhere for which Lord Murphy of Torfaen: It would not be for me or local people can see a future. anyone else in the House to determine that. It would I agree with the basic point being made, but my be a matter for the Ministers responsible for higher main point in intervening was because of my direct education and health to determine. Of course, the engagement on the issue of the Magee campus. I am noble Lord is right to refer to the medical school at 51 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 52

[LORD MURPHY OF TORFAEN] As the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, pointed out, Queen’s University, Belfast. In my home village of there are two universities in Northern Ireland: Queen’s Abersychan in south Wales, three of our family doctors and Ulster. Ulster University has several campuses, were educated at Queen’s, and fine doctors they were including the Magee campus where a range of courses too. But of course, Northern Ireland exported them, are offered, including in professions such as law and as it exported other people, and they did not come accountancy. As mentioned, Queen’s University runs back. The issue is not whether people should or should a medical school, and discussions on a medical school not be educated at Queen’s, but whether there should at Magee are ongoing. be better higher education provision in the city of Decisions on places are a matter for the government Derry, including medical studies. That is a matter for department in Northern Ireland. As this is a devolved the Assembly and the Executive. As soon as they are matter, I will not purport to be able to significantly up and running, they can make those decisions, but it enlighten the Committee on the substance of the is not for us to make them; it is for the devolved important issue that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, has Administration in Northern Ireland so to do. raised. But in light of its importance—here I am for once on the same side of the fence as the noble Lord, Viscount Younger of Leckie: My Lords, the noble Lord Adonis—I am happy to accept the amendment Lord, Lord Adonis, has raised important issues and I and to commit to reporting on progress on the issue. am grateful to him for doing so. I appreciate having again a short debate with him on higher education Lord Adonis: My Lords, that is an extremely matters, here on a very specific issue. I recall from constructive response on the part of the Minister, and previous debates that the noble Lord has visited Northern I welcome it. It is a significant step forward and gives Ireland, so it acts as a bit of a link when he raises these us the opportunity, on the basis of a good, factual matters today. account of the situation, to debate the future in autumn in the event that there is not an Assembly and Executive. Higher education, and indeed education services as If there is, that report will no doubt be useful for them a whole in Northern Ireland, have been raised in too. However, may I just clarify a point of some various debates in the House over the past two years. significance? In the event that there is not an Executive It is clear that education is an important area that or Assembly in the autumn, under this Bill and the needs strategic decisions on future reform. That is continuation of these powers do the Government have vital to ensuring that all children and young people in the power to proceed with the establishment of the Northern Ireland have the opportunity to fulfil their medical campus in Derry on their own account? full potential. On the issue of establishing a university in Derry, I am aware that the city and the wider north-west has a pool of talent to be nurtured, and I Viscount Younger of Leckie: My understanding is know of the excellent University of Ulster Magee that they do not, but I will write to the noble Lord to campus in Derry city centre. I am also aware, as I clarify that matter. believe are a number of noble Lords, of plans potentially to establish a medical school in Derry, as mentioned Lord Adonis: I would be extremely grateful if the today. I am keeping a close eye on the progress of this Minister could do that. In the light of the assurance he proposal in the context of delivering the Government’s has given, I do not feel the need to prolong the debate commitment to a Derry and Strabane city deal. However, any further. I beg to move. while I know that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, knows this, measures to improve higher education, such as to Amendment 9 agreed. invest in a new medical school or university anywhere in Northern Ireland, are devolved matters. It is this Amendment 10 Government’s fervent hope that Northern Ireland’s Moved by Lord Cormack political leaders can see their way to agreeing to restore 10: Clause 3, page 2, line 38, leave out from “Parliament” to the devolved institutions so that locally accountable end of line 40 and insert “offering a consultation with the people leaders can take the strategic policy decisions needed of Northern Ireland if no Executive has been established by to make progress. The noble Lord, Lord Murphy, has 10 April 2020.” spoken eloquently on these points. Perhaps I may reassure the Committee that the Secretary of State is making every effort to ensure that the ongoing talks Lord Cormack: My Lords, Amendment 10 and process is a success. Amendment 18, which immediately follows it in the grouping, stand in my name and that of my noble The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, made a point about friend Lord Trimble and, in the case of Amendment 10, there being not enough university places in Northern that of the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan. Ireland, a point of which I think the Committee has When we debated the Second Reading of this Bill taken full note. I am grateful for the views put forward last week, I made the point that we are now entering about the situation on the ground by the noble Lord, extremely sensitive, delicate territory. I quoted the Lord Empey, and the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan. noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, when I said that That has been helpful to the Committee.Higher education in the House of Commons this had, provision is crucial to ensuring that we have the skills “become a Christmas tree Bill”.—[Official Report, 10/7/19; col. 1843.] for the future and opportunities for our young people. Two particularly large baubles were hung on it last They should have the choice to study at universities week when those votes returned significant majorities across to UK. on the issues of abortion and same-sex marriage. I 53 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 54 completely understand why those amendments were by the date mentioned. It is really indefensible that we passed in another place, but if we are really concerned sit here acquiescing in the continued non-existence of about devolution and have a real regard for the sensitivities the Northern Ireland Assembly. of these issues and the feelings of the people of I understand why my noble friend has put this Northern Ireland, we have to tread exceptionally carefully amendment forward. I am slightly uncomfortable that here. That is why these two amendments stand on the the amendment is a bit passive— Order Paper this evening. “if no Executive has been established”. Nothing should be done in the field of abortion unless there has been extensive consultation with Northern One should really do more than just say, “We will do Ireland—if, sadly, no Executive has been recreated this if it happens, but we don’t appear to be doing and no Assembly is sitting—because these are devolved much else to keep things going”. I know there is a matters. As we were reminded forcefully and cogently talks process under way from time to time, and sometimes when we debated Second Reading, as recently as in I hear people saying that they are very close and that 2016 the then Northern Ireland Assembly made its things are going well. I very much hope that that is the views on abortion very plain. If we really want to case, but we have been here before and had negotiations see—and I certainly do—devolution and power-sharing that were getting very close—then some gentlemen restored in Northern Ireland, it would be rash of the whom we rarely see or hear anything from send their Westminster Parliament at this stage, when my noble messages in and the landscape shifts considerably. friend has assured us that he is confident that the talks In an earlier debate, the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, are going well and the parties close together, to make a referred to the fact that this is not just a matter of precipitate move on this subject. That is the last thing interest to Her Majesty’s Government but that another we want to do. Government are involved. That brings back to mind This amendment provides for consultation in Northern the agreement we made nearly 22 years ago. That Ireland if no Executive has been established by 10 April agreement had two elements to it: the multi-party next year. I have chosen that date, as I chose it talks, which happily came to a positive conclusion, in earlier amendments today, because that is the and the agreement between Her Majesty’s Government 22nd anniversary of power-sharing. My noble friend, and the Irish Government, which finds expression in replying to my earlier amendments, in effect said he legislation passed by this House. In that very short wanted to hold their hands to the fire and keep the agreement, which I think had only two or three clauses, pressure on. There is no better way of keeping pressure the first clause—the important one—contained a solemn than using that date, the anniversary of the Good undertaking by Her Majesty’s Government and the Friday agreement and the establishment of a power- Irish Government to support the product of the multi- sharing Executive that followed some years later. party talks; in other words, to support the steps we took towards the creation of the Northern Ireland 5.45 pm Assembly and to support the Assembly itself. I really urge caution and sensitivity, as I do on I draw the attention of Her Majesty’s Government same-sex marriage, where Amendment 18, standing in to the fact that they have an obligation to support the my name and that of my noble friend Lord Trimble, Northern Ireland Assembly. I do not think they are says: discharging that obligation. It is true that you have to “Regulations under this section must be introduced if no proceed via agreement with the parties, but one must Executive has been established by 10 April”— go further than saying, “We’ll leave it up to the parties”. again, that same date: the anniversary of the Good That is not supporting it. Friday agreement. I know there are those who feel Since this unhappy situation came about, a number very strongly that we should leap to the support of the of Members of this House have made proposals from amendments tabled last week in another place; I time to time about what could be done. I did that understand. My own personal views are highly irrelevant, several times myself until I started wondering what the but the personal views I hold on devolution are, I point was of trying to work up something that gives believe, entirely relevant. The moving speech last week another way forward if there is no sign of any support by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, must have made coming from the sources from which it should come. everybody realise just what a sensitive subject abortion Unfortunately, where there is an obligation on Her is in Northern Ireland. We know that there are also Majesty’s Government to support an Assembly—and, those who feel in a similar way about same-sex marriage. by extension, to support those trying to bring it about, What will happen at the end of the day if direct rule even though that means going a roundabout route and has to be imposed? I easily guess we would then fall in applying pressure to various parties—there should line with what our colleagues in another place said, really be more consideration from them about their but I believe passionately that, if we move too precipitately, obligation and how and when they will implement it. we endanger the very thing we are all protesting that we want to safeguard: namely, devolution. On that Amendment 18 says that regulations, basis, and with those strong feelings, I commend these “must be introduced if no Executive has been established”. amendments to your Lordships’ House. I beg to move. I know it is a bit premature to try to work out at this stage what the form of those regulations would be, Lord Trimble: My Lords, looking at Amendment 10, but, if there is a legal obligation on the Government to the key thing I see is, introduce some regulations at that point, that is to be “offering a consultation with the people of Northern Ireland if welcomed, as it might help accelerate the rather anaemic no Executive has been established”, processes that are going on at the moment. 55 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 56

[LORD TRIMBLE] Baroness Harris of Richmond: My Lords, at Second These are suggestions to think about, but I bring Reading on 10 July in this House, the Minister opening the Committee’s attention back to the fact that that the debate said, agreement was made on the basis that there would be “your Lordships will be aware that, in addition to reporting good faith from the Government in implementing it. requirements, the Bill was amended to oblige the Government to They responded by making a solemn undertaking. I introduce regulations to provide for same-sex marriage and abortion. now invite them to fulfil it. Those votes demonstrated the strength of feeling of the Members of Parliament. However, these are”, as we have heard, Baroness O’Loan: My Lords, I cannot endorse the “sensitive issues and careful consideration needs to be given to words of the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, too strongly. both the policy details and their implementation”. He is absolutely right. Consultation is essential if He was absolutely right to stress that. He went on to Northern Ireland is to have any sense that there was say: integrity in the intentions of the Government in what “Crucially, the amendments as drafted do not function properly, they have done in the past. and so do not enable the Government to deliver on the instruction As I have told noble Lords, over the weekend I of Parliament”.—[Official Report, 10/7/19; col. 1824.] received 15,000 signatories to my letter to the Prime Although time has been short for any discussions with Minister; I keep getting texts, and the number seems to the mover of this amendment in the other place, he be rising by a thousand an hour. There is another side promised to work with her to try to find a way through to this that I do not think noble Lords are aware of. this difficulty. Is he now able to tell us how that Given that Northern Ireland voted not to leave the conversation has progressed? European Union, if we move towards Brexit and we Also during that debate, the noble Lord, Lord Bew, simultaneously move to direct rule, many of the unionists supported the amendments made in the other place in Northern Ireland—my noble colleagues may contradict and, in a typically thoughtful and carefully worded me—would reject that. They will want a Northern speech, said: Ireland Assembly; we are capable of governing ourselves “I am of the view that, historically speaking, the broad in these devolved matters. tendency of the union has been to provide a better social and I know from what is written that the nationalist economic life for the people of Northern Ireland and a more people of Northern Ireland would reject it utterly. For broadly liberal life than would otherwise be the case”.—[Official Report, 10/7/19; col. 1839.] them, it would be the end of the Good Friday agreement; it would be the end of support from the British Devolution is not an obstacle to the UK Parliament Government for the institutions of the Good Friday legislating on this matter. Parliament is sovereign here. agreement; it would imperil our peace process. Equally, The devolved bodies required to take a decision on it would create a construct within which the reunification these matters are not in place—that is a tragedy on of Ireland would become rapidly more likely.If Northern which we all agree. This was raised in the Northern Ireland is not allowed to govern itself and space is not Ireland High Court, where the legality of the current made for the talks which need to take place, direct situation was queried in two recent judicial review rule, which has been a very bad thing for Northern claims. Those who claim that abortion is a devolved Ireland, will inevitably follow. matter fail to take into account the current circumstances in Northern Ireland, which mean that the devolved I say to noble Lords with a heavy heart that, as the bodies required to take a decision on this matter are noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, said on not in place. I reiterate that the UK Parliament is Wednesday, they are walking on very sacred ground as sovereign and has the ultimate responsibility to protect they contemplate these issues. It is not just about human rights across all countries of the UK, whether abortion; it is about the whole devolved settlement, devolved Governments are in place or not. the integrity of government and the future peace and prosperity of all four parts of the United Kingdom. Under Schedule 2 to the Northern Ireland Act 1998, matters of national importance usually remain the responsibility of the UK Parliament and are known Viscount Hailsham: My Lords, I rise very briefly to as excepted matters, which under paragraph 2(3)(c) speak about Amendment 18A, a manuscript amendment include, standing in my name which forms part of this group. “observing and implementing international obligations, obligations The sole purpose was to ensure that Parliament is under the Human Rights Convention and obligations under EU sitting between 22 October and 31 October this year. law”. The reason for that was articulated in the previous It is therefore clearly a matter for the UK Parliament debate promoted by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson: and not a devolved matter on the face of the devolution to prevent an improper Prorogation of Parliament, for settlement. The UK Parliament has an obligation to the reasons the noble Lord discussed. It has been act under international and domestic law to ensure grouped with these amendments. I have absolutely no access to free, safe and legal abortions in Northern intention of standing in the way of regulations to Ireland. permit same-sex marriage. That is not my purpose. It was a procedural amendment, and your Lordships will doubtless be pleased to know that I do not intend 6 pm to repeat the arguments I made in the previous debate Baroness O’Loan: If that is the case, why was the or in any way to seek to bring forward for your amendment in the other place drafted in the way that Lordships’active consideration Amendment 18A, because it was, which was asking the Secretary of State to do that matter was resolved in the second debate this this? There is no international obligation, legal or Committee has had today. otherwise, to introduce abortion. 57 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 58

Baroness Harris of Richmond: But Parliament is Baroness Harris of Richmond: What would the noble sovereign and so it will make that decision itself. Lord say to the Royal College of General Practitioners, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists Baroness O’Loan: I did not intend to imply in any and the Royal College of Midwives, which all agree way that Parliament is not sovereign, but there is no that this legislation should go through? obligation under European law or international law to introduce abortion. Lord Deben: I would say that we live in a democracy in which we have devolved these decisions, and they Lord Deben (Con): My Lords, from time to time we must prove that to the politicians elected for the north have to distinguish between what is utterly true, which of Ireland. If there are no such politicians, the least we is that Parliament is sovereign, and the particular can do is to have full consultation in order that they circumstances in which that sovereignty is actually will feel that they have been properly involved. The exercised. I am in the position of having been a noble Baroness is saying that we can say to the people passionate supporter—contrary to the views of the of Northern Ireland, “You cannot even be consulted. church of which I am an active member—of same-sex Weare going to take the view of these royal colleges—great marriage. I do not think that anyone can suggest that though they are—and enforce them on you”. That is I am holding things up because of my views on this. I not the way to win battles. What happened in the happen to take a different view from the noble Baroness, south when people voted, surprisingly many thought, Lady Harris, on abortion—perhaps that puts me into on both these issues is that they had the argument. a rather special circumstance on this particular issue. They had the discussion locally and made the decision But I want to say to the noble Baroness that it is locally, and it will therefore stick. It changed people’s very difficult for any of us to get inside the minds of attitudes in a way that I was enthusiastic about on one many people in the north of Ireland. That is a fact. We side and on the other side not. face a wholly different community from the communities We cannot go around saying on the one hand that to which most of us belong. That is true of people of we believe in devolution and then when it is convenient, all denominations, as a matter of fact. It is not an easy because people take a different view from us, we take place to be. The difficulty that we have had of the opportunity to enforce something. We have to win re-establishing devolved rule only shows how hard it the argument—not in London, nor even in Edinburgh all is. I have to say to my noble friend that many of us and Cardiff, but in Belfast. We have to win it in Derry would like to see more signs of activity from the and in the north of Ireland. I hope that the noble Government and the Secretary of State. I would like Baroness will go and seek to win it. I may try to to feel that this was being pressed in a more active way persuade people to take the opposite view on one of than seems to be true—but perhaps it is being pressed the issues, but at least we would be talking to the and we do not know, so I do not want to carry that people for whom we are legislating and to whom we criticism too far. gave devolved power. Of all parties who should be on But I beg people not to think that it is merely a this side, the Liberal Democrats, who have been prime matter of asserting the sovereignty of this Parliament movers on devolution, should think to themselves that to put through two changes in which they passionately devolution means taking the good with the bad. They believe—I passionately believe in one and passionately should recognise that it means that people make up do not believe in the other. It is not just a matter of their own minds, whether we like it or not. asserting our sovereignty. That is not how every community in the north of Ireland will see it. It will be Baroness Harris of Richmond: The noble Lord seen as us deciding what we think is good for the questioned me about statistics, more or less, and the Province. number of people in Northern Ireland. It is some time Now I find that attractive because I very often want since 2016 when the Government decided that they my opinions to be carried through more widely than did not want to change the law. But statistics from the they are. But we have already stretched the connection Northern Ireland Life and Times Survey in 2018, just between us and the north of Ireland to breaking point last year, found that 82% of the population polled over Brexit. I do not want to get into the nonsense that agreed that abortion should be a matter for medical we have actually tried to carry through on Brexit when regulation and not criminal law, and 89% agreed that a we ignored the problems of Ireland while going on woman should never go to prison for having an abortion. about Brexit. We have already stretched that connection Those are significant statistics. and are now suggesting that we stretch it even further. As the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, so remarkably put it, we are moving into a position in which false Lord Deben: Of all the parties in the country quoting moves from us will change the whole nature of Northern public opinion polls, I should have thought that the Ireland. Liberal Democrats should be particularly careful. I There are those who want that and would see it as a am not prepared to take public opinion polls—although benefit. But anyone here who cares about the unity of I would point out to her that nearly 70% of the women the United Kingdom should look very carefully at of Northern Ireland and more than 65% of all people putting their perfectly reasonable personal views in in Northern Ireland say that this should not be something front of the right of the Province to make up its own that the United Kingdom Parliament decides. mind. After all, we specifically gave a series of things So we can all bandy polls, but 2016 is a much more to Scotland, Wales and Ireland for people there to recent democratic decision than the democratic decisions make up their own minds about. that we have made. We are simply suggesting that, in 59 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 60

[LORD DEBEN] words of the noble Lord, Lord Murphy—who, almost order for the people of Northern Ireland not to feel more than anyone else, needs to be thanked for the that we are dictating to them in areas that are specifically Belfast agreement which I have before me today. their own, we should have proper discussion and proper This is the basis for the future in Northern Ireland— concern for their views—and if that is not a Liberal Catholics and Protestants and people of no religion view, I cannot think what is. working together, unionists and nationalists working together. There has been a recognition in the Committee Lord Adonis: Before the noble Lord sits down, he is this past hour of the importance of devolution and an extremely reasonable person, but surely he is missing people working together in Northern Ireland. That the fundamental issue: for how long can people be was not clear in the other place last week. I hope, denied fundamental rights simply because there is not therefore, that we will not set a time limit for the an Assembly sitting in Northern Ireland? Of course, introduction of issues such as same-sex marriage and we agree with him about the virtues of devolution, but abortion but instead will support the Belfast agreement for how long can people be denied those rights simply and the right of the people of Northern Ireland to because it is not sitting? It is two and a half years so work together and reach their own decisions. far and the clock is ticking. Most reasonable people would think we are reaching the point where Parliament 6.15 pm has to intervene if the devolved institutions are not there and working. Lord Eames (CB): My Lords,I approach this discussion from the unique position that I held until retirement as Lord Deben: I say to the noble Lord: that is in fact the earthly leader of the Anglican Church in the whole what is in the amendment. It enables that consideration of Ireland, which of course included the Church of to be done; it enables that conciliation to be done in Ireland in Northern Ireland. When your Lordships the sense of giving people the chance to say what they recognise the dates for which I was privileged to hold think. There is a date on it and I remind him that I said that position, you will understand that most of those in my own speech, as elegantly and delicately as I years linked to and were absorbed by the Troubles. could, to the Government that I was not sure that the Therefore, as I listen to a debate of this nature about kind of oomph that we ought to have behind the politics and dates and, interwoven with that, personal attempts at the restoration of normalcy in Northern attitudes to such sensitive issues as marriage of same-sex Ireland was there and I hoped that it would no longer individuals and the extremely sensitive issue of abortion, look as if it was lacking. So I am not sure that we are my mind centres not on the legal principles involved or very far removed. We are talking about making a the dates on which this House or the devolved decision but with the full respect of the people of Administration made decisions but on the ordinary Northern Ireland, either through their devolved Assembly people I know in Northern Ireland, who are, above all or, if they do not have a devolved Assembly, through a else at this stage, totally frustrated by the lack of a form of discussion and understanding which means local Administration, by the lack not just of elected that people feel it is their decision and not ours. people making decisions in their own country but of a sense of purpose and with it a sense of hope. If Lord Kilclooney: My Lords, coming from near the anything has deteriorated since the Good Friday border with the Republic of Ireland to listen to the agreement, it is the eradication of genuine hope that debate today on Northern Ireland, I found the first things can get better and remain better. When I approach hour very interesting but alarming—interesting because issues which I recognise are sensitive and on which I am a former Member of the European Parliament each of us has our own individual attitude, I look and I am interested in Brexit and the debate for and again at the frustration I just mentioned. against it, but it certainly was quite irrelevant to the There is a wealth of suggestions of what will bring situation in Northern Ireland and the Bill before us. the local parties together. Virtually every month we I have been encouraged by the atmosphere in the are given a different interpretation of the state of Committee in the last hour. It compares admirably those talks. It is not easy for the Minister to continue with what existed in another place a few weeks earlier, to reassure us that progress is being made, because when only a handful of people attended the debate on people in Northern Ireland say, “We have been here this Bill but then hundreds came to impose their will before; we have heard this, it has been explained to us, on the people of Northern Ireland without consultation. and where are we now? Nothing is happening”. Into Setting a time limit for the introduction of issues such that morass fit sensitive issues such as the two that are as same-sex marriage, abortion or whatever—and these now dominating this discussion and, with respect to are not the issues for debate; the debate is the future of your Lordships who do not have very detailed knowledge the system of government in Northern Ireland—plays of what life in Northern Ireland is or what makes its into the hands of some of the extremes that exist in people tick, who want to make decisions which will Northern Ireland’s political life. There are unionists have the sense of being imposed, who explain to us who believe in direct rule and who will be delighted to constantly, “We do not want direct rule; we want the see this Parliament impose a decision on Northern people of Northern Ireland to feel an identity of their Ireland, and most nationalists are delighted to see own”, to this I say, “Hear, hear. We want that”, but direct rule being imposed because they will say, “There when we look at the situation as it is, it is again one of are the English, once again imposing their will on the total frustration. people of Northern Ireland”. So I find myself in What can usefully be suggested? I believe the suggestion agreement with a lot of what the noble Lord, Lord Deben, stems from much we have heard in this debate. The has just said and I was certainly encouraged by the word is “recognition”—of sensitivity, of the limits of 61 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 62 sensitivity and the horizons of sensitivity,but recognition human rights to which each and every one of us is that sensitivity is something deeply personal in human entitled and which women, in particular in Northern relations and in human ambition, and nowhere Ireland, have been consistently denied. more so is that evident than in such cases as same-sex This is not a rushed measure to overrule constitutional marriage and abortion. niceties. It is a long and considered attempt to give all There is so much in the amendment before us that the people of Northern Ireland the equal rights and turns from giving an identity to the people who matter dignity to which all citizens of the United Kingdom most—the people of Northern Ireland—that they are are entitled. I suggest to the noble Lords, Lord Deben being considered, and that their needs, wants, views and Lord Cormack, that we have waited years for that and hopes are not being discussed in the face of the to happen. To kick it down the road now will be seen, truth of devolution. Even though to our eyes devolution not least in Northern Ireland by those who are losing is not working at the moment, that is no reason for any hope in their political institutions, as yet another of us to say that it is not worth giving it a chance. reason that we have failed them. I believe that in this My plea at this juncture in our discussion is to Parliament we have a right to say that after all this recognise, as I said at Second Reading, because of the time, the time has come. history that has brought this little part of the United Kingdom to where it is now, the need to be sensitive Baroness Tonge (Non-Afl): My Lords, I shall speak and to understand what we are talking about, because very briefly on this subject. As some noble Lords we walk on many graves. know, I was a GP and a family planning doctor and I saw hundreds of women who suddenly found that Baroness Barker (LD): My Lords,it is always instructive they were pregnant and did not want to be. I have been to listen to the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, at the sharp end of the despair, misery and fear, and and his text—sensitivity—is one that I hear very much. often the lack of sympathy from families and partners. I want to take this opportunity to do the thing that I have experienced this. I have seen this despair. If a this House does best: to speak on behalf of those country has a law that permits abortion, it does not whose voices are not heard or cannot be heard or who make women have abortions; it just gives them the are often drowned out. right to choose whether they continue with the pregnancy. I could not be in my place last week, but I listened If the law is there, and it is a good law, they can have subsequently to the speech of the noble Baroness, the abortion so early that they can carry on with their Lady O’Loan. I have listened to her on many occasions, lives. and she does, as the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said, It is not for the rest of the community to decide make a compelling personal case for her beliefs and what happens to these women. It is for them. I wish experiences. In this House, we do not hear from the people would realise this. It is a very personal decision. 1,000 women a year who leave Northern Ireland to As the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, said, it is a come to the mainland to receive the treatment to human right for a woman to have control over her which they are entitled as citizens of the United Kingdom. body, and if she does not want to be pregnant after she We never hear from them. We never hear from the becomes pregnant accidentally, she has a right to end poor women of Northern Ireland who do not come that pregnancy. It is her body and she has control over because they cannot afford it or cannot get the time to that body—or should have. come over. We do not hear from any of those people. Noble Lords have talked about more consultation When we talk about matters to do with devolution in Northern Ireland. I have been in touch with doctors and the constitutional settlement, I say to the noble in this field in Northern Ireland for years, and the and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames: yes, listen to women of Northern Ireland are crying out—not all of the people of Northern Ireland, but listen to the them—and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, said, people of Northern Ireland whose voices are drowned they are coming over here and spending huge amounts out and are not being heard. of money to get an abortion over here. I plead with The noble Lord, Lord Deben, who made a very noble Lords to have some human kindness and sympathy compelling speech, has been the most unlikely of allies and to allow women to decide this for themselves by to me at times. I say this to him: those of us who are on extending the rule to Northern Ireland. my side of the argument on the issue on which we do There is one point that I hope the Minister will not agree do not wake up of a morning and decide clarify. We ratified CEDAW—the Convention on the that we are going to get up and talk about Northern Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Ireland without bothering to go to talk to the people Women—in 1986. If we have done so, that is a UK of Northern Ireland—the men and women whose matter, not a devolved matter. It is not to be passed lives are directly affected. All the proposals which have down to the people of Northern Ireland—or Scotland, come forward on same-sex marriage and on overturning for that matter, but Scotland has already dealt with the abortion law have come after not just the odd this issue—but is for the United Kingdom, and if conversation but manyyears of working with communities people in Northern Ireland want still to belong to the in Northern Ireland to change the law. The noble and United Kingdom, they have to accept that there are right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, was right about some things that the United Kingdom is committed frustration. There is absolute and utter frustration in to, and this is one of them. Women have the right to Northern Ireland and a loss of hope that they too have an abortion. Not to allow them to have an might enjoy the same human rights as the rest of us. abortion is a form of extreme violence to some women. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, said there is no If you have seen the lengths that women will go to to right to abortion. No, there is not, but there are some have an illegal abortion— 63 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 64

Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: I am the father of Baroness Deech (CB): I agree with the noble Baronesses, four children and the grandfather of seven and I know Lady Tonge and Lady Barker. I recall that just a few the value of human life in terms of babies in the weeks ago we debated the provision of sex and womb. I cannot imagine that the noble Baroness can relationships education to young people. I was shocked neglect that particular aspect of life. Can she explain and dismayed by the protests of our colleagues from that to me? Northern Ireland. The point is, you may or may not approve of abortion or same-sex marriage, but we live Baroness Tonge: I am also a mother of three children in a world where we have to tolerate these relationships and a grandmother of seven, so I am well aware of the and choices. As the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, said, value of human life, and so are very many of my you do not have to do it if you do not like it—but you patients. We are surely not going to have the whole must not stop other people having the information debate about where life does or does not begin, and and having the right. where souls enter foetuses—please do not let us have that You may or may not be a fan of Europe. Our debate again. All I am saying is that, whatever the human rights have come not from the EU but from the situation, we are talking about a woman’s body. The European Convention on Human Rights, much of foetus is dependent on the woman’s body and cannot which was British-based. It is not a question of live alone, and if a woman does not want that to happen, consultation, either. If the population had been consulted she has the right to choose. That is all I am saying. on every single human right, we probably would not have them. Sometimes there has to be an external 6.30 pm body that brings people into that circle of human Lord Hayward: My Lords, it is an honour to follow rights and gives them their liberty. In this particular the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, who case, it is the right to a private and family life that made a fascinating, detailed and very thoughtful speech women must have. in our debates last week and has done so again this Sadly, most people in this debate are men and most evening. The contribution made a few minutes ago by of the supporters are women. That is highly significant. the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, really drove home In an age of #MeToo complaints, when this Chamber the point about the issue of abortion. has just been criticised by Naomi Ellenbogen for the In this debate, I will concentrate my comments on attitude that some men take towards female employees, same-sex marriage.When the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, it is high time that men laying down the law had a bit described this as precipitate and a leap, there was the more consideration for the feelings of the women who implication that this had never been discussed before. may have been put in the position of having to have an The Northern Ireland Assembly has had five debates abortion, because the man who made them pregnant on this since 2012, the most recent of which was in late has abandoned them or is not supporting them—whatever 2015. Each time it had a debate, the majority against the reason may be. same-sex marriage diminished, until finally in late I think that in this situation devolution is being 2015 there was a majority in favour of same-sex marriage. used as an excuse. This is perhaps the most profound This was overturned using a procedure that was not human right a woman can have. Had it not been for really intended for social matters, as the noble Lord, the advances in contraception and abortion over the Lord Kilclooney,identified in a previous debate.However, last 50 years, which gave us the confidence and freedom it was constitutional, so I recognise it. So we cannot to go ahead with our education, plan our lives and say that this is a leap or a precipitate decision. We are have our children when we wanted them, we women in now into seven years of debate in Northern Ireland on this Chamber would not be where we are. We must the subject. give this to the women of Northern Ireland. They are Before today, I too have spoken on five occasions 50 years behind the rest of the world. Any man here about same-sex marriage. I first introduced a Private who wants to deny this to them does not understand Member’s Bill on 27 March last year. As the noble human rights or what he should be doing to help those Baroness, Lady Barker, identified, there are unseen women, rather than holding them back and condemning and unheard people who are affected because they them to shady, shabby and expensive trips to other cannot get married in their homeland of Northern countries to get their human rights. Ireland. I have referred on previous occasions to employees of this House who are in that position. They cannot Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, perhaps the return to Northern Ireland to achieve what every noble Lord, Lord Morrow, might like to speak, because other person would want to achieve—that is, a marriage his clause stand part debate is grouped with these with their family in their home community. amendments. When I first spoke on the subject on 27 March last year, there was a couple looking down from the Gallery who had waited for years to be able to marry in Northern Lord Morrow (DUP): Yes, I wish to speak to Ireland. So let us please not work on the basis that this Amendment 20, which is part of the first grouping. I has not been considered but has suddenly been concocted understand that the groupings are not binding. If the on these Benches or in the other place over the last few noble Baroness is suggesting that I make my speech days. I conclude with the thought that this was the now, I will take the opportunity. I am quite content to subject of debate in the Northern Ireland Assembly do so and thank her very much. for seven years when it was sitting. We cannot keep on We hear much about the Northern Ireland Assembly saying to people, “Well, if … Well, if …”. Seven years deciding this by a majority of one, but we do not hear is surely more than enough for anybody. much about when the Northern Ireland Assembly 65 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 66 decided by a very comfortable majority that there Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD): When the noble Lord should be no change in the abortion laws in Northern speaks of the abortion laws as being up to date, does Ireland. If it is important how the Assembly voted on he think that the criminalisation of women who seek same-sex marriage, is it not also important how it an abortion—there are outstanding cases and women votes on every other issue, namely abortion? There who go to prison for seeking or having an abortion—is were strong feelings expressed here on Wednesday compatible with the rest of the United Kingdom? about the manner in which the other place amended a Does the think that is compatible with natural justice Bill which was intended to change the date by which and human rights? The woman mentioned last week—I an election in Northern Ireland has to be called and believe by the noble Lord, Lord Trimble—whose 14 year- made into a Bill that brings in sweeping reforms old daughter, a child, was raped by numerous men and relating to abortion. bought an abortion pill online is currently facing a We know that abortion is a devolved matter; we trial, in November, and possible imprisonment. Does know that the clerks in the other place had advised he think that is a good way of conducting the law of that the amendments were out of scope; we know that the land? Is it progressive and liberal? Is it acceptable this Bill was subject to a fast-track procedure—making to the people of Northern Ireland? it wholly inappropriate to deal with such a matter as abortion; we know that in 2016 the Northern Ireland Lord Morrow: When I say these laws are the most Assembly voted by a clear majority not to change the up to date I am speaking of the fact that the Northern law in any way, and we know that a ComRes poll Ireland Assembly, in a cross-community vote, voted shows that 64% of the people of Northern Ireland for them. I was a Member of the Assembly at that oppose Westminster legislation for Northern Ireland time, as were both my colleagues. We do not come to on this matter, rising to 66% of women and 72% of this with an ignorant view or without an understanding 18 to 32 year-olds. We also know‘ that all the main view. We understand—but is it of any concern to this denominations in Northern Ireland oppose any change House that 100,000 children are alive today because of in the law—the Presbyterian Church, which is the our legislation? Members may turn their heads, look largest denomination, the Roman Catholic Church, the other way and ask, “What is that to us?”. Maybe it the Methodist Church, and the Church of Ireland—as is nothing to them, but it is a lot to the people of do all the minor denominations which, added together, Northern Ireland. I sincerely implore your Lordships’ would make one major denomination, probably the House to take cognisance of that. third largest Protestant denomination in Northern Ireland. However, these things do not seem to be important. 6.45 pm The Commons saw fit none the less to impose Clause 9 Before I came here, I was always told, “This House on this Bill. It has to be said, of course, that 100% of is steeped in procedure; we are always procedurally Northern Ireland MPs who take their seats voted correct”. Are we procedurally correct today? I challenge against the provision. Quite apart from the substance your Lordships to think on that matter, irrespective of of the issue, as a matter of procedural fair play it is their view on these two divisive issues.Are we procedurally hard to imagine a better expression of being treated correct? I deduce that no, we are not. beneath contempt. To really appreciate the significance This has already been alluded to as a Christmas tree of this, we must turn to the substance of the issue and Bill. The more I listen, look and learn, the more I have recognise that abortion is a far more sensitive issue in to agree. I took a Private Member’s Bill to the Northern Northern Ireland than in any other part of the United Ireland Assembly on human trafficking and exploitation Kingdom; others have alluded to this. Wemust recognise and support for victims. I was able to achieve that only that many people in Northern Ireland are very attached with the cross-community support of that Assembly. to our abortion laws; I might add that they are the When it came to its final stage, as I recall, there was most up to date of any region of the United Kingdom. not one detractor of what that Bill was trying to The Both Lives Matter report, which shows that achieve. A very small minority may not have agreed 100,000 people are alive in Northern Ireland today with it entirely, but I was able to accommodate over who would otherwise not be, is hugely important. I 100 amendments from all sections of the Assembly. realise that the Government have not created this We arrived at a position where, I believe, on that issue, problem. Their response, however, has the capacity to we have good legislation. I ask the House to keep that make things better or infinitely worse. The Minister in mind. suggested last week that there were some difficulties In this context, the best thing would be to amend with Clause 9, but rather than acting as he should to Clause 9 so that it makes sense in terms of the remit of moderate their effect, my reading of what he said was Section 26 agreed in the other place, or move to delete that the Government were interested in helping to Clause 9 in its entirety, or, ultimately, pull the Bill, rescue the provisions and possibly create a new power as I believe we should. It is perfectly clear that not based on Section 26. That would be wholly wrong the Bill before us has been distorted beyond all because the amendment in another place that sought recognition from its original purpose in a way that is to create a new power—that is, new Clause 5—was wholly inappropriate, because of a failure to observe not selected for debate and because the Government constitutional due process with respect to scope in the cannot introduce new offences without contradicting other place, and the fact that matters that should be the Sewel convention. I am a wee bit disturbed today the subject of Bills in their own right have been that there has been very little mention of respect for rammed into a Bill subject to fast-tracking, thereby the Sewel convention. adding insult to injury. 67 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 68

[LORD MORROW] Lord Bruce of Bennachie: Does the noble Lord not If the Government choose to respond by further acknowledge that the Supreme Court has already indicated violating constitutional due process, casting aside the that it believes that the law in Northern Ireland is not Sewel convention, we will be looking at a constitutional consistent with human rights, which evolve? There is a crisis the likes of which we have not seen in a very long judgment pending from the Supreme Court that could time indeed. In a constitutional democracy such as put the law in breach of the European Convention on our own, the end never, ever justifies the means. I say, Human Rights. The United Kingdom is a signatory to finally—it is important—that ends, no matter how that convention. Does that not give the United Kingdom noble you might deem them to be, are always sullied in Government and Parliament an obligation to legislate a manner that darkens the pretensions of any polity to on the law in Northern Ireland? be constitutional, if they are secured by means that are anything but. The Attorney-General of Northern Ireland has indicated that there are no legal reasons why the Lord Browne of Belmont: I thank the noble Lord for matters that this Bill properly seeks to address should his intervention, but I understand that that was on a not be so addressed in September. So my counsel to very narrow case of fatal foetal abnormality. I will the Government is to pull this Bill, at least for now. address that matter shortly, which should answer his Failing that, they must delete Clause 9. question. The chief commissioner of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission recognised that the Lord Browne of Belmont: My Lords, I support the recommendations were non-binding in oral evidence amendment of my noble friend Lord Morrow. As a to the Women and Equalities Select Committee in the former Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly, I other place when it was reviewing the law in Northern do not believe it can be said enough in this place that, Ireland. Professor Mark Hill QC wrote an opinion in 2016, the Northern Ireland Assembly considered about the CEDAW report, in which he stated: the matter of abortion. It did not just have a general “The Committee does not have the capacity or standing to debate. It voted on primary legislative amendments to give a binding adjudication on the United Kingdom’s obligations our abortion law and determined not to change the under CEDAW or on the proper interpretation of CEDAW”, law in any way at that time. made the point that the International Court of Justice I believe that the last time Westminster voted on had not interpreted CEDAW as providing a right to primary legislative changes to a real Bill, as opposed abortion, and said: to a 10-minute rule Bill, was back in 2008. This means “The interpretative function under the CEDAW is reserved, that Northern Ireland has the law with the most recent not to the Committee, but to the International Court of Justice.” democratic sanction of anywhere in the United Kingdom. If this is not enough to convince your Lordships In that context, it simply cannot be right for Great that the authority being given to this Committee is Britain MPs to overrule every Northern Ireland MP. flawed, I shall quote from a Supreme Court judgment The only justification that I have heard is human —R (A and B) v Secretary of State for Health—in rights—but there are two problems with that approach. which Lord Justice Wilson said: First, there is a supposition that access to abortion “The conventions and the covenant to which the UK is a party services is a human right. In the other place, the mover carefully stop short of calling upon national authorities to make abortion services generally available. Some of the committees go of the amendment, the honourable Member for further down that path. But, as a matter of international law, the Walthamstow, said, authority of their recommendations is slight”. “There is a specific definition of human rights”,—[Official Here we come to the case that the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, Report, Commons, 8/7/19; col. 106.] referred to. The judgment in that case stated: implying that there is universal agreement on what “If the Supreme Court rules in the case of Sarah Ewart that human rights mean. I support honourable Members there is a right in relation to fatal fetal abnormality, then that in that debate who rightly said that there is no international would create a very strong case for a small but important change right to abortion. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, made to the law. It would not, however, create anything resembling a the point last week that the right to an abortion is not general right to abortion”. included in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Indeed, the basis for thinking that the court might There is no right to abortion under the United Nations support a right in relation to fatal foetal abnormality Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of is what was said in relation to a case last year, in which Discrimination against Women—CEDAW—which is the plaintiff did not have standing, so no rule was the locus of the authority cited by Clause 9. made. The court also gave another indication, to the The second supposition is that a determination by effect that there is no human right to abortion on the a UN committee is binding on a member state in a basis of disability generally—something permitted in way that a declaration by the UK Supreme Court of Great Britain. incompatibility with the European Convention on Secondly, the medium of human rights is normally Human Rights would not be. The latter can make a expressed as a check on the majority expressed through ruling on incompatibility with human rights in any constitutional due process. This is highly ironic, given given situation, but it is for Parliament to decide that the only reason we are here is the complete whether it wishes to act on that ruling. As the Supreme disregard of constitutional due process manifested Court has said, Parliament can decide to do nothing last week in the other place, where we saw: dispensing about the court’s ruling. None the less, we are being with scope; debate being permitted in relation to out- advised that we must change the law, and change it of-scope issues that should have been the subject of now, in a way that is manifestly undemocratic. their own Bill, even though the Bill before the House 69 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 70 was being fast-tracked; and the imposition of a change restoration of devolved government in Northern Ireland on the part of the UK with the smallest population, could have arrived at a debate on major social issues and thus the smallest number of MPs, by MPs from that impact on the whole community. outside Northern Ireland We have come a long way in Northern Ireland, and The ethic that the end justifies the means is the kind it is right to acknowledge that. The people of Northern of thing that constitutional checks are supposed to Ireland are good people. They have a good heart and, guard against, not encourage. If the proponents of whether people believe it or not, in the midst of the Clause 9 press their case on the basis of the end greatest days of darkness and trouble, many—the vast justifying the means, as at present, that will cast a majority—of the people of Northern Ireland lived great shadow over the integrity of their human rights happily side by side together and were good neighbours. pretensions. If we want to live in a functioning union, They helped each other when they were in trouble; by all means let us talk about human rights, but do not they worked alongside each other in many different use them wrongly to suggest that there is a general ways. They are also a generous people. right to abortion when no such right exists, and do not use them to dispense with the respect for constitutional due process, the presence of which can facilitate a 7 pm functioning union, whereas disrespect for it will bring A noble Baroness said earlier that she wanted to about its demise. speak for those whose voices are not heard. Let me do so. Let me speak for the voices of the unborn Lord Judge (CB): My Lords, I wonder whether I because their voices are not heard. We speak about may be allowed two minutes to look at the provision 100,000 children—people just like your Lordships and that we are considering, which is Clause 3(6). What is me—who are alive in Northern Ireland today who, proposed is, had the abortion law been brought in, would not exist. “a review of the current legal framework on abortion in Northern Perhaps to some that does not really count, but if you Ireland with an analysis of how that … could be amended by were one of the 100,000 it would count. It would … Parliament when there is no Executive”, certainly count if your life was spared—if you had the followed by these very important words, which I have ability to be born into this world, grow up and, with not heard this afternoon, all your hopes and dreams, seek to fulfil them and live “subject to a sunset clause to respect devolution”. a fulfilled life. I speak as a father of five children and I read that to mean that whatever we may do, when 10 grandchildren, and I love every single one of them. there is an Assembly in Northern Ireland, it will be up We lost one child, though not one of the five. That to the Assembly to decide what the law should be in broke my wife’s heart and mine, but it was not because that country. It may revert to the law as it is now—but of any action we had taken. we hope that it will not. Abortion is a particularly sensitive matter in Northern Ireland. People have strong views about it. That is not Baroness Boycott (CB): My Lords, I find this debate surprising because it is literally a matter of life and really shocking, and I support my noble friend Lady Deech death. I take the view that unborn life is precious in and the other noble Baronesses. I have campaigned for God’s sight and should be protected by the law. I women’s rights all my life, and the one word I have not realise that not everyone in Northern Ireland shares heard tonight is “kindness”. I do not think any woman that view, but I believe that the vast majority of people has ever wanted to have an abortion, and I am shocked across the community in Northern Ireland do. Northern by a lot of the attitudes coming through, which imply Ireland’s law on this matter should be decided by those that women go for abortions in a willy-nilly, uncaring who represent the people of Northern Ireland; it has fashion. In fact, this is a terrible decision for any been for almost 100 years. woman; it is not undertaken lightly, or without thought, worry and anxiety. Women have abortions because There are not many people elected to represent they do not feel that they can bring that child into this Northern Ireland in the other place. Eleven of them world and give it the care, love and family life it is due. take their seats. Last week, every one of them opposed This is something that has been absent from the debate, what is now Clause 9. That ought to tell this House and I am shocked to stand here listening to men—as something. Are they just angry, hateful people trying my noble friend Lady Deech says, it is men who are to destroy people’s lives and trying to destroy women? saying this. If it were men in those shoes, things would Is that what it is? When devolved government was in be different. They are entitled to stay overnight and place in Northern Ireland, the Assembly showed that then go off and leave a woman with the consequences. it was ready and willing to consider this issue. It was This is a human right; it is about kindness and decency. only in February 2016 that MLAs last voted on it. It is astonishing what is happening, 50 years on. I have There were two votes. One was on abortion in cases of been in this House for one year and two days, and I am fatal foetal abnormality. MLAs voted 59 to 40 against shaking as I listen to all this again. We have had this allowing abortion in such circumstances, which was a argument. This is a human right and human decency, majority. The other vote was on abortion in cases of and we should not stand in the way of the women of sexual crime, and there was an even stronger majority Northern Ireland, who deserve it. against—this time of 64 to 32. The daughter of a friend of mine was expecting two Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP): children. She was told by her doctor that one of those My Lords, many people listening to this debate, including children could not live and therefore she should abort those listening outside, will hardly believe or understand it. She did not. Both those children are healthy today, how a simple Bill for the extension of two dates for the enjoying life, going around Northern Ireland, playing 71 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 72

[LORD MCCREA OF MAGHERAFELT AND COOKSTOWN] gay marriage to our beloved daughter-in-law and another together in their home and enjoying family life. Should daughter who was in a gay civil partnership and is now she have got rid of that child? She was told to but she married to a man, as a result of which we have a did not. beloved former daughter-in-law and a beloved son-in-law. The elected representatives of the people of Northern That is what real life is like. When you look at what Ireland, when presented with the question of abortion happens in real families in these issues, without for these reasons, said no. Those who voted against the pontificating about what they should be thinking or, changes included unionists and nationalists, Protestants, even worse, thinking for them, you see things in a Roman Catholics and those with no religious label at much more realistic light. all. It was a totally cross-community concern. I do not I turn to the Bill and the constitutional issues. I believe that the MLAs were out of step with public repeat what was said by my noble and learned friend opinion. I remind the Committee, as some noble Lords Lord Judge about Clause 3(6), which expresses that have already done, of the poll conducted in Northern these changes are, Ireland in October 2018; it cannot be suggested that it “subject to a sunset clause to respect devolution”. was a long time ago. Some 64%, and 66% of women, The Bill seeks to do almost exactly what those who said they did not want Westminster to interfere in this have proposed these amendments are asking for; it just matter but believed that it was an issue to be settled in does it in a coherent and logical way. I have spent a Northern Ireland. Yet the Bill is now being used—abused, great deal of time in Northern Ireland, looking at the I suggest—to take this matter out of the hands of the Good Friday agreement and working as Independent people of Northern Ireland and those who represent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation. If you asked the them. good people of Northern Ireland what they thought I also have a concern about the force given in about these issues, their answer would be, “Well, we’re Clause 9 to the recommendations of the committee on not terribly interested in these issues as a constitutional the elimination of discrimination against women under matter, although we have opinions. What these wretched the heading “International obligations”. Clause 9 says politicians should get on with is governing Northern that regulations must give effect to those recommendations, Ireland by devolved government, which they are choosing but the recommendations of the committee are not not to do at the present time”. Devolution is not a binding. The Supreme Court put this very clearly in right but a choice. The politicians of Northern Ireland 2007 when Lord Justice Wilson, giving the majority have chosen not to govern their country through judgment, said: devolution at the present time. “The conventions and the covenant to which the UK is a party So what happens to the political process in Northern carefully stop short of calling upon national authorities to make Ireland? Does it come to stasis? Does it come to a abortion services generally available. Some of the committees go further down that path. But, as a matter of international law, the standstill because the politicians cannot sit down in a authority of their recommendations is slight”. locked room for a few days and realise that their duty Clause 9 overstates the obligation that the UK is is to govern that very important part of the United under,and I believe that noble lords and noble Baronesses Kingdom? That is the choice they have made so far. in this Committee have overstated that obligation too. When that choice has been made, it is constitutionally There is no international obligation to introduce abortion the duty of the Parliament in which we sit to determine in Northern Ireland; rather, the obligation, both moral all the issues that a devolved Government would consider, and based on the principle of devolution, is quite the including these enormous social issues.Northern Ireland’s opposite. constitutional settlement, which produced the miraculous results of the Good Friday agreement, which I admire without a single word of demur, sets out and accepts Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, I have listened that when there is no government by devolution, there to the debate with growing concern and anxiety about is government from this Parliament. In my view, this its tone and about what seems to be a very poor Parliament is perfectly entitled, and under a duty, to understanding of the constitutional issues that arise. take the decisions set before it this evening. We ought to remind ourselves that we have been talking about moral issues that affect young women Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, this has and young men of an age that does not exist among been a long debate.When the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, the membership of this House. Those of us who are spoke at the beginning, he said this was sensitive, the fathers and grandfathers and mothers and delicate territory. He is right. I have close friends on grandmothers of young people ought to bear that in both sides of the argument and I resent it when people mind. We have listened—I do not want to offend abuse the integrity of those who have a different view. anyone but I will take the risk—to a lot of anecdotally All views should be respected in this House. The tone based, at best, moral relativism, which to those who in which some comments have been made does not eventually come to read what has happened in this reflect well on this House. That point was made by the House today, particularly the young, will view as noble Baroness. uninformed, if possibly well-intentioned, and with Coming back to the comments of the noble and disdain. learned Lord, Lord Judge, about what we are debating The only evidence that I can rely upon is the evidence tonight, which were moderate as always, I have not that I see with my own eyes and in my own experience. written a speech like some noble Lords, but I have a I can tell your Lordships that among my five daughters couple of comments. I think one of our colleagues and step-daughters and my nine grandsons and grand- from the DUP described this as a process which was daughters, I have one daughter who is in a very happy not procedurally correct— 73 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 74

Baroness O’Loan: I thank the noble Baroness for giving When we next debate this we will discuss the way. She talked about the nature of comments and said amendments from the Commons. I understand that something about a noble Baroness making a comment. the Government are in discussions with Stella Creasy I would like to know who and what she was talking about. and Conor McGinn about how to give effect to the will of the House of Commons. That is right. The Baroness Smith of Basildon: I was referring to the votes in the Commons had bigger majorities than we comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott. get in your Lordships’ House. The McGinn amendment She said she was upset about some of the comments was passed by 383 to 73 and the Creasy amendment by that had been made in the debate, and I respect the 332 to 99. I welcome that the Government are having comments she made in that regard. I think she was discussions about how to give technical effect to those right to make them. amendments and the will of Parliament. Coming back to the point about whether this is We have seen amendments on consultation today procedurally correct, as somebody who has spent more and I have to take it at face value that those who tabled hours than I might care to discussing this with clerks amendments about consultation genuinely want it. or colleagues, I can say that if the matters before us However, no MP proposed that there should be were not procedurally correct, they would not be consultation on any of these issues until after the votes debated by this Committee today. All matters before on same-sex marriage and abortion had taken place. I us are procedurally correct. The noble Lord from the think these amendments are designed to frustrate, DUP made the point that the provisions on abortion delay, restrict and undermine the amendments from and same-sex marriage were not supported by Members the House of Commons. I think the noble Lord, of Parliament from Northern Ireland. I regard every Lord McCrea, actually said that that was the intention single Member of Parliament as equal to every other. behind his comments today. Each Member has a duty to consider the position of What we are debating goes beyond personal views the United Kingdom as a whole. Wehave a Conservative or opinions. We have heard already how the Assembly Government, supported by Members of Parliament voted for same-sex marriage in 2015. My understanding from Northern Ireland of a different political party, is that had that Assembly still been sitting, we would who presumably vote on issues affecting the whole of not even be debating that issue here today.It is something the UK. I would not criticise Members of Parliament of an irony that the reason that that was halted and who vote on issues that affect other parts of the did not take place was because of a petition of concern. United Kingdom, because all MPs are equal. This is designed to protect minority views in Northern Ireland and here it actually frustrated legislation for a 7.15 pm minority in Northern Ireland. A majority of the current The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, said that Northern Assembly Members would also vote for this. It is a Ireland is not allowed to govern itself. I look at the basic human dignity to be allowed to marry the person Minister and I think he would love to see a devolved you love in your home country. Government up and running in Northern Ireland. On abortion, there are strong opinions on either That has been said across the Committee. Everybody side which must be respected, but I struggle with the wants these decisions to be taken by a devolved notion that in Northern Ireland a victim of a violent Government. It is not a case of not being allowed to rape who has an abortion faces a harsher penalty than do this; the decision lies with the Northern Ireland her attacker. I find that quite chilling. The position at political parties. I think all noble Lords want to see the moment does not stop abortions happening. If it much greater progress on this. For about two and a was possible to reduce the number of abortions, I half years, we have had no Government, no local would be pleased to support that, financially and Assembly meeting and no Ministers in Northern Ireland. otherwise, but that is not what the amendments would You have to ask: who speaks for the people of Northern do. More than 1,000 women and girls now travel to Ireland? A case I have been particularly interested in is England and Wales for abortion, in addition to those the hyponatraemia inquiry, which I set up getting on who take illegal abortion pills bought online. for 20 years ago. This has now reported and the families of the children who died are desperate to take Baroness O’Loan: I do not think it is quite right to forward the proposals and recommendations in that say that huge numbers of women are being raped, report. Because of the lack of a Government in Northern become pregnant and are imprisoned because of breaches Ireland, those families continue to suffer, as no decisions of the law. That is not what is happening in Northern are being taken on those recommendations. Ireland. Yes, we have some women who are raped. We are seeing amendments to this Bill not just on Undoubtedly, some of them will get pregnant. Northern abortion and same-sex marriage but on pensions and Ireland needs to sort these things out for itself. compensation for victims of historical sexual abuse—the latter is my amendment, which I regret is the final one we will debate today. Those are coming forward to this Baroness Smith of Basildon: I think the noble Baroness House and this Parliament because of the lack of a misunderstood. I agree that Northern Ireland should devolved Assembly in Northern Ireland. I do not sort it out, but a victim of violent rape who becomes accept that any decisions taken in this House make pregnant and seeks an abortion faces a harsher penalty devolution more difficult. You could argue that it is than her attacker. That seems quite wrong. the impetus of decisions that could be taken here that The House of Commons has voted on two issues, should put pressure on Northern Ireland politicians to with substantial majorities. On Wednesday, we will ensure that devolution is up and running. have an opportunity to look at how the Government 75 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 76

[BARONESS SMITH OF BASILDON] —or perhaps was explicit—that, if we passed this Bill, have responded to Conor McGinn and Stella Creasy; we would be in breach of the Sewel convention. In my the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, will be bringing it recollection, the Sewel convention says that we will here. We look forward to seeing what will happen. not normally legislate without the approval or consent This debate has highlighted how sensitive this is, and of the devolved Assembly. This situation, where we do that there are intransigent different points of view not have an Executive and an Assembly,seems completely which I think cannot meet. We must do what we abnormal. Therefore, I cannot see how we could be in believe is right. breach of the Sewel convention. I would be very grateful if the Minister, as the expert, could give a Lord Duncan of Springbank: My Lords, this debate ruling. has stirred a great many emotions. We have heard very powerful speeches from all sides of the House. To Lord Duncan of Springbank: I am loath to use the ensure that there is no confusion, I will be very specific, term “ruling”on this one, if I may be frank. I understand and, if you will forgive me, I will break precedent and the noble Lord to be correct; the Sewel convention read what I have to say; it will be easier for me. allows for not acting under normal circumstances, but Abortion is a sensitive issue. There are strongly held by any definition the situation that Northern Ireland views on all sides of the debate, in Northern Ireland finds itself in today is not normal. However, I would and the rest of the UK. Many of those views have not like that to carry with it the weight of greater been expressed during this debate and during the minds than I. I may have to put a very formal note to passage of the Bill in the other place. your Lordships later to confirm that, just in case I am We must recognise the clear will of the other place. in any way in error. That House sought a commitment that the Government On that basis, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the would legislate in these matters. The Government amendment. respect the views expressed in the other place. Those views were expressed on a free vote, which is a matter Lord Cormack: My Lords, this has been a long and, of conscience. I stress that the amendments which at times, a difficult debate. When I introduced the have come from the other place are procedurally correct, amendments, with the support of my noble friend and we must recognise them for what they are. My Lord Trimble—who has had to go to another engagement honourable friend in the other place, John Penrose, the —and, in the case of the abortion amendment, the Minister, very clearly set out the challenges represented noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, I said that this was an by the devolution settlement before these votes took extremely sensitive and delicate subject, and the Leader place. In doing so, he was careful to ensure that the of the Opposition the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, other place was fully informed. referred to that. I think that every word that has been As I made clear at Second Reading, there are technical uttered has at least underlined that I was correct on problems with the drafting of this clause which need that. to be resolved. On an issue as important as abortion, The only thing I regret is that some people, perhaps which relates to the health and safety of women in because they felt hurt, have reacted in a slightly unfair Northern Ireland, it is not enough to express the way. Noble Lords must remember that my noble friend desire for change. The Government must ensure that Lord Trimble, who supported both these amendments, the drafting of the Bill is effective and can, in practical is a man who perhaps has done more than any other terms, deliver the change that the Members in the individual in Northern Ireland to bring about the other place want to see. Discussion is ongoing, with Good Friday agreement and serve his part of our the support of the Government, to try to deliver a great United Kingdom and his country with diligence clause that works. Discussions have taken place with and honour, and he is the last man who would be the two Members of Parliament who moved the insensitive in these issues. Indeed, at Second Reading, amendments. I hope that, when we come back to he referred in a slightly jocular way to his own family consider these on Report, we will have amendments experience of a daughter marrying another woman. which are fit for purpose. When I was chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs I appreciate that there have been a number of views Committee in the other place, I had a great deal to do on this issue, not least those that have touched upon with the noble Baroness, Lady O’ Loan, who was then the question of devolution itself within a constitutional the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland. She is a framework, and not least those that have touched great public servant, and it was an honour to deal with upon the moral questions underpinning abortion. It is her. I met nobody at any stage in Northern Ireland right that the Government take no view on these who was more fair,more dispassionate or more concerned matters; these are matters of conscience, and each about the fate of those who had suffered in the Troubles. individual noble Lord must look to themselves on She was even-handed, almost to a fault. I was sad these matters. We hope that we can make progress on when I heard what the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, these matters at the next stage. On that basis, and said. It would be sad to believe that anyone who has rather than for me to do a full round— spoken in this debate has done so with anything other than a passionate sincerity and belief. Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB): The Minister referred When I introduced the two amendments, I began to the constitutional argument, and he is the greatest by saying that I was doing so for one reason only. It is living expert on the Sewel convention, mentioned by nothing to do with my views on either of these subjects the noble Lord, Lord Morrow. The noble Lord implied but because I have a very passionate view about Northern 77 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 78

Ireland and the need to restore devolution. It was A review into future regulation took place in 2011, because of that that I tabled these amendments, which but regulatory and legislative harmony has not occurred. have received some support and some opposition. I Arguably, a lack of oversight has been the result. am grateful to those who supported and I completely Courts and district councils license gambling activities, understand the deep feelings of those who have opposed the Department for Communities controls licences for them but, I repeat, the only reason I introduced these track betting and the PSNI enforces the law. Take, for amendments is that I see devolution slipping away. I example, the confusion over Gambling Commission made the point at Second Reading that I see that we regulation. The 2005 Act created the commission, are moving inexorably towards direct rule, and I deeply with no authority in Northern Ireland, yet exceptions regret that. I hope that, when those in Northern exist. Under Section 5 of the Gambling (Licensing Ireland read this debate, they will realise—to quote and Advertising) Act 2014, for example, the regulator again a current catchphrase—it is time for them to has oversight of the offence of advertising unlicensed take back control. Weneed a Northern Ireland Assembly remote gambling. This regulatory confusion is not and Executive. I hope that what has been said collectively anyone’s desire, not least those who must understand in this debate, from all sides of the argument, will these distinctions. convince people in all parties in Northern Ireland that I turn to another quirk deriving from the lack of they will be guilty of a dereliction of duty if they do legislative harmony. The Gambling Act 2005 underpins not take back control. much of industry behaviour, including the spirit of the CAP codes, which inform Advertising Standards Agency regulation. As gambling advertising is overseen by the 7.30 pm ASA, which has oversight of Northern Ireland, it Of course I will withdraw my amendment because, makes the situation unclear. The advertising regulator as I said earlier, I believe in the convention of your states: Lordships’House that we very rarely vote in Committee. I would like to see what my noble friend puts down “The Gambling Act 2005 does not apply outside Great Britain”. before I decide whether to table amendments on Therefore, licensees should ensure that: Wednesday, and I am sure he will inform me in good “Specialist legal advice should be sought when considering time. With that, I withdraw the amendment. advertising any gambling product in Northern Ireland”. It is not just regulators based in London that struggle Amendment 10 withdrawn. with the lack of clarity.The Department for Communities told the BBC in 2018 that the mere legality—not the Amendment 11 stake, but the legality—of so-called fixed-odds betting Moved by The Lord Bishop of Newcastle terminals is a grey area. I quote, 11: Clause 3, page 3, line 2, at end insert— “their legality can, therefore, only be definitively determined by “(f) delivering regulatory alignment between Northern the Courts”. Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom in Many of your Lordships are aware of the work regard to gambling.” from these Benches on stake reduction of electronic gaming machines. The situation we were in, until a stake cut, was a consequence of the 2005 Act, yet The Lord Bishop of Newcastle: My Lords, my friend devolved legislation never had the categories of A, B, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans has B2, et cetera. While there is no certainty of the legality been unavoidably detained in his diocese, so has asked of these machines in Northern Ireland, the industry me to speak to his amendment. This is a probing has flourished. When the rest of the country saw a amendment attempting to address an issue that causes stake reduction, the estimated 600 fixed-odds betting regulatory anomalies, in that Northern Ireland does terminals in Northern Ireland did not see a legally not have the same standards for gambling as Great enforced stake cut. These confusing loopholes do not Britain. This amendment is an opportunity for the even begin to touch upon notions of no-purchase- Government to enable greater harmony in gambling necessary rules, Sunday trading or casinos.The anomalies regulation and legislation. The existing lack of alignment and confusions abound: gambling operates inconsistently has appeared piecemeal in nature since the Northern within the UK, and this affects lives. Ireland Act 1998, and has led to confusing quirks. For It has been a steep climb through this complicated brevity’s sake, I will quickly outline the differences the legislation. Clearly on some things regulation and right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans has rules are the same, and then on another matter they identified as being of difficulty to the people of Northern diverge. While these Benches, alongside the Church of Ireland, who do not have a well-regulated gambling Ireland, deeply regret Westminster legislating on Belfast industry with safeguards for all. matters, Northern Ireland deserves clarity as soon as Northern Ireland does not use the Gambling Act possible. Harmonisation can offer this, and I hope the 2005. Instead, it relies on the Betting, Gaming, Lotteries Minister considers it in the Government’s report. I beg and Amusements (Northern Ireland) Order 1985. The to move. right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans has suggested that this outmoded basis for a modern gambling industry has led to a lack of safeguards. As Lord Bruce of Bennachie: My Lords, I welcome this the Department for Communities writes on its website, amendment and recognise the activity that the Bishops’ one in 50 Northern Irish adults has a gambling-related Benches have shown on this issue over the years. I problem, which is, hope they recognise that the Liberal Democrats have “three times higher than in GB”. also been active on this, with both my noble friend 79 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 80

[LORD BRUCE OF BENNACHIE] enforcement in Northern Ireland—and I had not realised Lord Foster in this House and Ed Davey in the other the extent of the differences until they were explained House putting on pressure to get rid of the £100 limit to us tonight—it is clearly a serious problem and I for fixed-odds betting terminals. It is fair to say that hope that the Minister will be able to respond positively. that pressure and the campaign that came with it, despite a number of false starts, has had results. But as Lord Browne of Belmont: My Lords, I fully support the right reverend Prelate made clear, the situation in all that has been said about the problem of gambling Northern Ireland is not legally enforceable. Therefore, in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland has the highest observing the £2 limit is only voluntary for the industry. proportion of problem gamblers. I know of one sad It would be beneficial to report that, even if it has in case where this has led to suicide. It also leads to the the short run, it should not lapse, but be maintained at breaking-up of families and marriages and loss of that level so that abuses do not take place. homes. A report on this matter would be extremely The other issue raised by the right reverend Prelate useful, but to be consistent with the arguments already relates to the advertising of gambling. Nobody is made, I have to say that, at the end of the day, suggesting—yet—that there should be a complete ban legislation should be reserved for the Northern Ireland on advertising gambling, but the way it is focused Assembly. should be monitored. One of the most insidious aspects of gambling and its promotion is the way it draws Viscount Younger of Leckie: My Lords, the right people in and becomes addictive to the point that it reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle, on behalf of destroys lives, not just financially, but emotionally the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans, is and, as we know, people have literally committed quite right to raise the outdated gambling laws in suicide. My noble friends and honourable friends have Northern Ireland and I thank her for her remarks. met too many families of those who have committed suicide. This has reinforced their belief that advertising These laws are complex, but in Northern Ireland gambling should be strictly controlled and done in a they have not kept pace with emerging technologies way as to make it clear what different types of betting, such as electronic and online gambling. Such technologies bonuses and gimmicks involve, and how much they have made it much easier for people to gamble, including could cost and draw people in. from inside their own homes, thus changing the entire gambling landscape. The industry should also fund the help provided to people who become addicted to gambling. If the gambling The gambling laws in Northern Ireland date back industry is to have a justifiable existence—killjoys to 1985 and are modelled on a much older Great might want to stop it, but that is not necessarily the Britain law which was repealed and replaced by the objective—it has to accept responsibility for the dangers Gambling Act 2005. A few aspects of the 2005 Act associated with gambling and their consequences, and have been extended to Northern Ireland. In particular, put resources into helping people who have become if a remote gambling operator does not hold the addicted. It should also put resources into ensuring remote gambling licence from the Gambling Commission that people do not become addicted in the first place, that it would need to be permitted to advertise in certainly not from the way the industry is promoted. Great Britain it cannot advertise in Northern Ireland either. Given the practicality of the amendment, requiring the Government to report with a view to bringing the Although the legislation has not kept pace, I am laws of Northern Ireland and the rest of the United pleased that businesses have in some instances led the Kingdom together, I hope that the Minister will be way in taking steps in line with the more updated GB able to accept it. That would be beneficial. It may be regulations and applied them across the whole UK, perfectly right and proper to say that we can have including in Northern Ireland. For example, GVC, different laws in different parts of the country—we which owns Ladbrokes Coral, has voluntarily reduced have had this debate in Scotland as well—but the fixed-odds betting terminal stakes in all its UK operations fundamentals of safe and responsible gambling should from £100 to £2 in line with GB regulations. I understand be UK-wide. It should be possible at least to establish that other NI bookmakers have committed to this a practice that applies across the United Kingdom voluntary reduction. Any such actions to improve even if there might be slight variations in the law— social responsibility by NI operators is to be welcomed. devolution can allow for that. The fundamental objective As the right reverend Prelate will be aware, gambling should be that gambling is non-addictive and does not is a devolved matter in Northern Ireland. The reform draw people into levels of loss that they simply cannot of this legislation should be for a restored Executive support, leading to tragic consequences. and Ministers to consider, informed by the results of that review. I am pleased to say that I am content to Baroness Smith of Basildon: I support the right accept the amendment and to commit to reporting on reverend Prelates on this issue. This is one of those progress, but I repeat that this is a devolved matter and issues where if the Government were to take some thus the depth and detail of such a report will not be action it might get support from the Assembly—very something over which I have control. moderate action is proposed in the amendment. Anyone who has seen late-night or daytime TV will have seen The Lord Bishop of Newcastle: My Lords, I thank adverts for gambling, aimed particularly at women in noble Lords who have spoken in support of this many cases, that encourage viewers to roll their winnings amendment and warmly thank the Minister for his and depict all the glorious things that will happen to response. I know that the right reverend Prelate the those who gamble. If there is a gap in legislation or Bishop of St Albans would value a conversation with 81 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Space Science and Technology 82 the Minister to discuss the variations in regulation of Armstrong later confirmed that landing this craft was the gambling sector in other jurisdictions across the his biggest concern, saying that, UK. “the unknowns were rampant … there were just a thousand things to worry about”. Amendment 11 agreed. The excellent BBC World Service podcast, “13 Minutes House resumed. Committee to begin again not before to the Moon”, gives the real human detail of how this 8.45 pm. was achieved, just how extraordinary and hard the task was,how hard people worked, the sense of dedication, teamwork and commitment, and how it caught the Space Science and Technology imagination of the entire world. There are apparently Question for Short Debate all sorts of small but crucial matters that you have to remember as an astronaut if you want to get back 7.45 pm alive. Small things quickly become very big matters. Asked by Lord Mawson For example, of all the things that Buzz Aldrin had to remember, one important detail was to ensure he did To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light not close the door of the “Eagle” when he left the craft of the 50th anniversary of the first Apollo moon to step down on to the moon’s surface. There was landing on 20 July 1969, what plans they have (1) to apparently no outside door handle on the craft if he exploit space science and technology, and (2) to shut it—just think about that. improve and encourage public participation in that field. At a time when we are in danger, as a country, of talking ourselves to death, drowning in thousands of Lord Mawson (CB): My Lords, I thank all the parties words and coming apart as a nation, this 50th anniversary in this House for helping me to secure this important of the Apollo 11 moon landing is a breath of fresh air. debate, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Rees, for all It takes place this Saturday 20 July and reminds us of his advice and support. an amazing practical human achievement that required On 16 July 1969 at 8.32 am EST, the Saturn V rocket massive collaboration across wide groups of people carrying the Apollo 11 astronauts, Neil Armstrong, with many different skills, experiences and values, to Buzz Aldrin and Michael Collins,at Launch Complex 39A achieve a practical outcome that the whole world at the Kennedy Space Center set off for the moon. I could celebrate. The focus was not on words but on a suspect that many of us in this Chamber are old practical task: doing something together. This enough to remember exactly where we were and what extraordinary human event carried with it important we were doing at that moment as the world held its opportunities for our economy and for every nation breath, came together and watched in awe these amazing on earth, particularly for our children and the future events in black and white footage on our television of this planet. screens. I can certainly remember where I was and the sense of wonder it sparked in me; I was Just before Easter, I was approached by the Aldrin 15 years old. It was only eight years before this that Family Foundation in the US and the Hackney artist, President Kennedy had set NASA this mission and Helen Marshall, whom I know. They were working seven months since NASA made a bold decision to with the Kennedy Space Center and asked whether my send Apollo 8 all the way to the moon on the first colleagues and I would be interested in working with manned flight, on a massive Saturn V rocket. them and the People’s Moon project in the US to help celebrate and share this extraordinary human achievement On that fine morning in 1969, 7.5 million pounds of with this generation in the UK. We jumped at it. I thrust propelled them into space and into history. declare my interest. The Peoples Moon is a global After one and a half orbits of the earth, Apollo 11 project to mark, in a unique and creative way, the headed for the moon. Three days later, the crew is in 50th anniversary of landing the first humans onto the lunar orbit and, one day later, Armstrong and Aldrin lunar surface. It is producing giant photo and video climb into the lunar module “Eagle” and begin their mosaics that will appear at multiple locations around descent, while Collins orbits in the command module. the world starting now, this July. Collins wrote later that the “Eagle”, “is the weirdest looking contraption I have ever seen in the sky”. A team of us working together have now secured, When the lunar module landed at 4.18pm EDT, only this Saturday, the anniversary of the moon landing, 30 seconds of fuel remain. We all know the rest. giant screens in Times Square, New York, in Piccadilly When you dig into the details of this amazing Circus, London, and in Singapore, which will show, at human feat of risk-taking and daring, you discover the exact time 50 years ago, the landing of the lunar some interesting facts. It was costing a massive 4% of module. A giant projection of Neil Armstrong’s first USA GDP at the peak; it took more than 400,000 people boot print on the moon will be projected on to the working together as a team to get those two brave men floor in Piccadilly Circus, so that people can literally alive there and back from the moon. During the final stand in his footstep. These celebrations will coincide seconds of descent, “Eagle’s” computer is sounding with other events across America, the highlight being alarms. It turned out to be a simple case of the at the Kennedy Space Center in Florida. Our own computer trying to do too many things at once—sound Professor Brian Cox will be taking part in this gala. familiar? But as Aldrin would later point out: The permanent home for the People’s Moon exhibit “unfortunately it came up when we did not want to be trying to will be at the Kennedy Space Center in Florida: future solve these particular problems”. generations will be able to click on individual pictures 83 Space Science and Technology[LORDS] Space Science and Technology 84

[LORD MAWSON] nascent environment movement, and in the long term and learn something about the thousands of individuals it may be that this was by far the programme’s greatest that took part and what their aspirational “giant leap” impact. Pope Francis, in his speech to the Council of was in 2019. Europe in November 2014, challenged us all: To make this large moon mosaic, we are asking “Where is your vigour? Where is that idealism which inspired people, particularly young people, to download the and ennobled your history? Where is your spirit of curiosity and People’s Moon app and send us individual pictures of enterprise?” themselves with a statement of their “giant leap”, The clues may be in this incredible story of human describing their aspiration in a few words. The Apollo endeavour, self-belief and risk taking. programme was accomplished by the efforts of more than 400,000 people coming together and achieving 7.55 pm an impossible dream. This project is encouraging this Lord Bates (Con): My Lords, I thank the noble generation to come together and inspire the world to Lord, Lord Mawson, for giving me this opportunity to believe in them and dream the impossible again. This celebrate this momentous anniversary of human giant art installation, a picture of the moon made up achievement. As Buzz Aldrin climbed the steps of the of 10,000 people’s pictures and their “giant leaps”, lunar landing module for the last time, Neil Armstrong will stay as a reminder of our time, 50 years on, of reminded him of one item in his shoulder pocket that what we have learned from these extraordinary events he was meant to leave behind. It was an ultra-microfiche in the history of humankind and the impact they have inside an aluminium case inscribed simply “From had upon our lives and our economy. Planet Earth”. He dropped it from the steps. The Just over a week ago, Professor Brian Cox and I ran microfiche that floated slowly down to the moon’s our eighth science summer school in a school in what surface contained goodwill messages from 73 world was, just over a decade ago, a failing housing estate leaders, including Indira Gandhi, Pope Paul VI, Chiang and failing school in Tower Hamlets. This year, 60% of Kai-shek, President Tito, Haile Selassie and the only our children in this school have gone on to Russell surviving signatory, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. group universities, many to read science and engineering. Over the weekend, I had the opportunity to read Our means of turning around what was a failing these: they were optimistic in tone and had two great school was, first, to get good leadership and build a themes. The first was a desire for peace; and the other focused team of staff; then to inspire the children and was the hope that this great human scientific advance expose them to the lives and journeys of this country’s may hold the key to improving life here on earth. top scientists and engineers; then to connect this yearly It is important to remember the context of 1969. inspirational event to the ongoing science and engineering We were at the height of the Cold War and the curriculum in the school; and, finally, to make sure Vietnam War. It was a time of great power tensions, they meet, hear and work with people who are actually not unlike our own. Notwithstanding this division, the running some of this country’stop science and engineering writers of those messages believed that the search of businesses. Join the dots, create an aspirational culture the heavens had the capacity to draw us closer together and believe in these children: they have many talents. on earth. The moon and space were not a resource to We know; we have the data to prove it. be exploited but a frontier to be explored. The boundaries Just over a week ago, these children from east to be expanded were of human knowledge and London were joined by 60 children from Rotherham understanding, not of nation states. This sentiment and Skelmersdale as Brian and I took the science was captured in the lunar plaque for the Apollo 11, summer school into the north of England. They heard which remains on the surface of the moon and states: from Abigail Hutty, who is working on the ExoMars “WE CAME IN PEACE FOR ALL MANKIND”. Rover, co-ordinating the design team who are building This is also expressed clearly in Article 1 of the this vehicle, and from Andrew Smyth, an aerospace Outer Space Treaty of 1967, signed by 103 countries, engineer at Rolls-Royce and finalist in “The Great and which the UK played a leading role in securing. British Bake Off”, who shared with us the scientific Article 1 states that exploration, links between the heat shield on the space shuttle and the make-up of meringues and arctic rolls—amazing. “shall be carried out for the benefit and interests of all countries There is much debate about the direct benefits of the ... and shall be the province of all mankind”. massive investment in the Apollo programme. Perhaps, It may be that this momentous anniversary offers us though, that misses the point: the sense of self-belief, an opportunity to revisit that treaty and reaffirm our the entrepreneurial, can-do attitude that it engendered commitment to its precepts.As we celebrate the Apollo 11 could be seen as its major successes. The Apollo mission, we might pause and reflect what we may be in programme gave a major push to computer technologies; danger of leaving something behind: a belief that, it purchased 70% of the entire production of early whatever our differences, we are all human first and integrated circuits and more or less invented software that we are privileged to share the most extraordinarily engineering, so perhaps it is no surprise that the USA beautiful home in the known universe, which it falls to is pre-eminent in these spheres today. us in this generation to cherish and improve for the benefit of the next. The “Earthrise” photo from Apollo 8, showing the earth rising beyond the moon, was taken the first time 7.58 pm humankind left earth’s orbit. For the first time, we saw how small and precious our planet really is. For the Baroness Walmsley (LD): My Lords, I too thank first time, we could see the globe in the context of the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, for securing this debate. the cosmos. This was, arguably, the major driver of the When devising our industrial strategy, it makes sense 85 Space Science and Technology[15 JULY 2019] Space Science and Technology 86 to assess our opportunities and play to our strengths. weather forecasting—and for science. NASA’s budget In relation to both, the UK should be doing more: remains much larger than that of the European Space though only 3% of the world economy, we are 5% to Agency, but it is mostly spent sustaining America’s 6% of the world space economy, so we are already pre-eminence in manned flight. On the unmanned doing well, although we need to do a whole lot better front, we should proclaim more loudly that ESA has if we are to reach the Government’s target of having parity. The successes of Rosetta, Planck, Gaia and 10% of the global space market by 2030. Apart from Copernicus—all strongly involving the UK—fully match the trade and the very high-value jobs we can create what NASA has achieved. We can be proud of Europe’s from space exploitation, there are four good reasons publicly funded space effort and should remain key why we need to be active in this field. Space programmes players. allow us to monitor and observe our world: this is vital In parallel, the Government should foster commercial for environmental protection and climate change projects, supporting launch sites and research and mitigation. Communications rely on space programmes, development. They should also promote educational as does navigation. Then there is the vital area of ventures—this is where Leicester and the Open University defence. We need to be independent in all these areas. deserve special mention. Wemust not forget the influence We are already active in two of the major sectors on young people of such enterprises. Space is second of space exploitation: building satellites and receiving only to dinosaurs in fascinating the young. In coming and interpreting data from them. The area where we decades, the entire solar system will be explored by are lacking is in independent launch facilities, although fleets of tiny automated probes, interacting with each this aspect of space exploitation could be worth £3.8 billion other like a flock of birds. Robotic fabricators will to our economy by the end of the decade. construct in space solar energy collectors, telescopes The Sutherland space hub being developed by and industrial-scale structures. Highlands and Islands Enterprise is supported by Will there be a role for humans? The practical role £2.5 million from the UK Government as part of its for them gets ever weaker with each advance in robots, £17.3 million funding, and other grants have been sensors and miniaturisation. It is therefore hard to made available to companies developing a new rocket, justify massive funding by taxpayers. Manned spaceflight launch operations and a new satellite. The location of should be left to privately funded adventurers prepared this site makes sense, so that we can launch to the to participate in a cut-price programme far riskier and north-east, but it is in Scotland, a part of the UK far cheaper than western nations could impose on where the people and the Government do not want to publicly supported civilians. The phrase “space tourism” leave the European Union and where the SNP should be avoided. It lulls people into believing that Government have threatened to attempt to break up such ventures are low risk. If that is the perception, the union if we Brexit. What happens to the Sutherland the inevitable accidents will be traumatic. These exploits site then? I understand that there is another site in must be sold as dangerous sports or intrepid exploration. Cornwall where there are plans for a launch site, but By 2100, thrill seekers in the mould of Sir Ranulph the investment in Sutherland is already great. What Fiennes may have established bases on the moon and discussions have taken place with the Scottish Government Mars. Elon Musk of SpaceX says he wants to die on to protect that investment? Mars, but not on impact. We should cheer on these Brexit threatens more than that. Half our current enthusiasts. satellite manufacturing is exported to the EU. Tariffs We should never expect mass emigration from the would make us less competitive and a no-deal exit earth. Here I disagree with Musk and my late colleague would be a disaster for companies such as those in the Stephen Hawking. It is a dangerous delusion to think Glasgow and Surrey clusters, which build a lot of that space offers an escape from the earth’s problems. small satellites. One area in which we excel at the Coping with climate change is a doddle compared to moment is removing space debris. There is a parallel terraforming Mars. Nowhere in our solar system offers here with the plastics that pollute our oceans. In our an environment even as clement as the Antarctic. race for development, we have polluted the oceans There is no planet B for ordinary, risk-averse people. with plastics that do not decompose and we have We must cherish our earthly home. polluted space with bits of technology that are no longer used. A British satellite manufacturer has a clever netting system that can remove them. Surely 8.05 pm this technology has enormous potential. Are the Government backing it? Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB): My Lords, Edwin “Buzz” Aldrin recounted: 8.01 pm “What I want to remember most is the glance between Neil and myself, with the engine shutoff, just the second after we Lord Rees of Ludlow (CB): My Lords, the Americans touched down, because we had just completed the most critical committed 4% of the federal Budget to Apollo. Had door opening for space exploration in all of humanity”. that level of spend been sustained, there would have Opening that door had the potential to allow infective been footprints on Mars by now. But once that race agents—“moon fever”, whatever that might be—to against the Russians was won, there was no imperative enter the capsule and be brought back to earth. Although to sustain that massive effort, so Apollo remains, half science fiction had postulated several terrible diseases, a century later, the high point of manned spaceflight. one thing was certain: there would be no resistance to However, space activity has burgeoned. We depend any such infection on earth. Therefore, the risk of routinely on orbiting satellites for communication, infection had to be zero. It was not. In 1963, NASA satnav, environmental monitoring, surveillance and recommended quarantine of any astronaut coming 87 Space Science and Technology[LORDS] Space Science and Technology 88

[BARONESS FINLAY OF LLANDAFF] talent from around the world to our universities, back from lunar landing missions and three weeks’ institutions and companies and driving British industry quarantine was deemed adequate to detect the emergence ever further forward. Today, British companies and of possible lunar microbes. They have not been found, entrepreneurs are leading a resurgence in space but organic material is out there, possibly pointing to exploration. They are at the forefront of the world of our origins. satellite communications and space commerce,successfully Dr Bill Carpentier, when aged 33, entered the sealed driving yet more jobs and investment into our economy. negative pressure capsule with the returning astronauts The crew of Apollo 8 circumnavigated the moon in to monitor every aspect of their health, physical and December 1968—on Christmas Eve—and took the mental. Analysis of gait in weightless conditions has iconic “Earthrise”photograph, an image directly credited now shed light on our neurological systems. Bone with starting the environmental movement at home. density changes explained fracture risks and the sequelae This was the first time that the human race collectively of intense radiation received in the Van Allen belts is saw the beauty of our home planet against the backdrop still being monitored. Space medicine is now a sought-after of the deepest darkness of space. Our earth shines like training programme and has been established in the a jewel in space; it is the jewel of all creation. All who UK in part by the efforts of Professor Gradwell and have seen the earth, no matter from which nation, colleagues from King’s. experience the overview effect. Seeing the beauty of Research into space flight includes the man-machine our planet quite literally changes them. My great interface, human performance, fatigue effects, space friend Nicole Stott has been in space three times and cabin safety and habitability, decompression sickness, the experience of seeing the earth from there has the fluid shifts in zero gravity that cause hypotension changed her dramatically. Indeed, the greatest gift we on re-entry, and spatial disorientation. This all received from the Apollo programme was not the informs aircraft accident investigation. Publications moon but, rather, the earth. from astronauts’ data have looked at their cardio- I was fortunate in that one of my early political vascular, pulmonary and nervous systems. However, assistants in the House of Commons went straight as Dr Carpentier said: into space. He now runs an immensely successful “You’re not sending a cardiovascular system into space, you’re British-American programme. That is a good example sending a person”. of how that programme affected just one person, That glance between Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin along with his wife Nicole Stott, the astronaut. Apollo on landing on the moon encapsulates that human was by far the best foot forward ever in my lifetime for interaction that determines success or disaster. After all humanity. Neil Armstrong’s death, his family had a simple request to us all: 8.11 pm “Honor his example of service, accomplishment and modesty, and the next time you walk outside on a clear night and see the Baroness Boycott (CB): My Lords, it is a great moon smiling down at you, think of Neil Armstrong and give him pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, a wink”. and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, for tabling the debate. As noble Lords know, we circled the moon before we landed on it, and on Christmas Eve 1968, 8.08 pm Apollo 8 became the first manned spacecraft to leave Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne (Con): As the the earth’s orbit. As the astronauts completed their noble Lord, Lord Mawson said, all of us recall with circle of the moon, they saw in front of them an great intensity exactly what we were doing, feeling and astounding sight: the exquisite blue sphere hanging in thinking when Apollo 11 landed on the moon. As an the blackness of space. They photographed it and the early computer programmer and systems analyst, I result was the image known as “Earthrise”. It is without was particularly concerned about the software and a doubt one of the most profound events in the history whether it would hold up. Had my colleagues on the of human culture and, without a doubt, an amazing other side of the Atlantic done everything that they photograph. For the first time we saw ourselves from a possibly could to test it to extinction? It held. The distance. Our earth, our home, in its surrounding dark astronauts landed and they came back. It was a most emptiness, seemed not only infinitely beautiful but magnificent triumph. It was of course a triumph for infinitely fragile and precious. humanity as well. For the first time we came together The photograph graced the cover of James Lovelock’s across national boundaries, religions and languages in groundbreaking work Gaia. Lovelock showed us for a celebration of what it was to be human. To be alive the first time that everything on earth is connected, to witness that great event was a privilege that none of and that it is regulated for its own good and thus for us can ever forget. our good as well. Rainforests, oceans and the soil It was also a sound investment. The money spent beneath our feet ensure that that we have air to breathe, on space is actually spent here on earth within our food to eat and natural resources from which to thrive. economies. It provides high-tech employment, jobs Initially, Lovelock’s view was pilloried and thought a and growth, spinning off new technologies that benefit hippy interpretation of the photograph, but now it is all our lives. The Apollo programme brought a more accepted science. “Earthrise” spurred many people to modern world to everyone, everywhere. Indeed, it is think differently. In 1970, the United States set up one of the shining examples of the truth that investing the Environment Protection Agency and in 1971 both in science and engineering works. This can be a great Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth were founded. role for government as the funds in turn fuel growth in Our own Department of the Environment followed our economy and provide jobs here at home, attracting in 1972. 89 Space Science and Technology[15 JULY 2019] Space Science and Technology 90

Later in his life, William Anders, the astronaut who areas could pay dividends, mirroring the approach took the photograph, said: used so successfully in America. There is an opportunity “This is the only home we have and yet we’re busy shooting at to capture that before it is lost to others. each other, threatening nuclear war and wearing suicide vests”. I finish with something about the spirit of Apollo. It took our leaving the planet to fully understand how It was a great endeavour, with the whole nation united awesome and vulnerable it is. Sadly, we are still not to achieve a single goal. Maybe that same spirit is what learning the lesson. Some 50 years ago, the brilliance we need to resolve the climate challenges of today. of humanity rose to the challenge laid down by President Kennedy when he said that man will go to the moon. We succeeded, triumphantly, so 50 years on, let us put 8.17 pm that combined brilliance to work again to save the Lord McNally (LD): My Lords, I first congratulate very precious world that we are all lucky enough to the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, and send good wishes inhabit. for the People’s Moon project. I hope that the media give it the coverage it deserves and that it succeeds. My locus in speaking in this debate is twofold. I 8.15 pm hope it is not thought of as one-upmanship to say that Lord Ravensdale (CB): My Lords, I thank the noble I was in Downing Street on 14 October 1969 when Lord, Lord Mawson, for tabling this debate. Project Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin and Michael Collins Apollo was and remains a great technical achievement were received by Harold Wilson as part of the world of humankind. It has inspired millions around the tour that followed their journey to the moon. I have a world and it is an honour to have the opportunity to son, James, who works in Munich as a space vehicle help commemorate the 50th anniversary of the moon controller—a title that slightly worries me, but he landings today. assures me it is perfectly safe. The past 50 years have seen an amazing movement Everything about Apollo astounds. When President forward in unmanned exploration. The noble Lord, Kennedy set the goal of a manned moon landing in Lord Rees, was right to draw attention to the fact that 1961, only a single American had flown in space on a we were probably right: the brief we have had and suborbital flight, yet the President had the ambition— “8 Days: To the Moon and Back” showed, perhaps almost the audacity—to commit the nation to a moon more than we knew at the time, just how perilous that landing before the end of the decade. The resulting journey to the moon was. machine, the Saturn V moon rocket, was the most As the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, said, we powerful machine ever built. really are going into a new space age, with lots of I am a nuclear engineer. Designing nuclear reactors encouraging things happening—not least the work by is not quite rocket science, although it gets close at Professor Brian Cox, which has been mentioned, Tim times and makes me appreciate the engineering genius Peake and his adventures and successive Governments behind Apollo all the more. I remember how inspirational in the past 10 years giving legislative and investment Apollo was to me as a child. Sadly, I cannot claim to support to our space industries. recall where I was at the time of the moon landings, There are, however, still things that worry me. The but I pored over the details of the mission. It played a noble Lord, Lord Rees, mentioned the future of our key part in my decision to pursue a career in engineering. participation in the European Space Agency. The It is that ability to be inspired and excited by the future Government must really make clear what their intentions that gets children interested in science and engineering, and hopes are for our participation in the European as the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, pointed out. That is Space Agency. I worry that we are moving away from: one of the great legacy benefits of the programme. “We came in peace for all mankind”. The dreams that many had in the 1960s about the The Chinese, the Russians, the United States and future of space flight never quite transpired, yet we are France all seem to be developing military capacity in at a critical juncture in the history of space flight, space. What is the Government’s view of these dangers? driven in the main by the development of reusable A number of speakers have also talked about the rockets by private industry in America. I believe they environmental clean-up in space. will transform the economics of space flight and will I was very interested in the comment from Buzz lead to many opportunities and growth in the sector. Aldrin in “8 Days: To the Moon and Back”. On the On the 50th anniversary of Apollo, it seems wholly way back from the moon, he said that space travel appropriate that space is becoming really exciting would continue because of, again. “the insatiable curiosity of all mankind”. The UK has an excellent, thriving industry in the My son James has told me that what has inspired him production of satellites, which the noble Baroness, more than anything else was that “Earthrise” image Lady Walmsley,referred to.It would be really inspirational taken by Apollo 8—our earth suspended in the void. It to get the capability to launch those satellites back in is a reminder of both our urge to explore new frontiers the UK. I note the really positive developments with and our responsibility to our fragile blue planet. spaceports in Cornwall and Scotland. Several private companies in the UK are looking at developing launch technology—for example, small launch vehicles and 8.21 pm engines for reusable launch vehicles—and the Government Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab): My Lords, should look closely at the funding of those efforts. within a month of the Apollo mission landing in 1969, Contracts to kick-start private investment in those another—not quite as remarkable—event occurred: 91 Space Science and Technology[LORDS] Space Science and Technology 92

[LORD MCNICOL OF WEST KILBRIDE] reasonable coverage because, although we in government I was born. Although, unlike the noble Lord, recognise the important role that space can play in our Lord Mawson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, economy, security and environment, also important is I have no memories of that day or the moon landing, its unique potential to inspire the next generation. I growing up alongside the Apollo 11 lunar landing was grateful for what the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, anniversaries and annual celebrations has had an effect said about that—the need to get into schools and the on me. Growing up, I felt an optimism for the future—I work that he is doing on that front. If the Government still feel it now, although sometimes it is tested—and a can help in one department or another, my door is belief that we can do better and be bolder. open; he can come to me and we will see just what is There is something exciting, mysterious and possible. adventurous about space exploration and lunar landings. So soon after the debates on net zero, it was also The success of that Apollo mission is now 50 years useful for the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, and my past. On Monday 21 July 1969, the first Oral Question noble friend Lady Nicholson—and I think the noble on the Order Paper was from Lord Brockway, a former Lord, Lord McNally, as well—to mention the impact general secretary of the Independent Labour Party, of those photographs of Apollo 8 six months earlier, the ILP. He spoke of the landing as, and just how suddenly and completely they changed “opening an entirely new era in history”. our view of the world we live in. Again, I remember He warned against the dark side of the potential those photographs as they appeared in the newspapers militarisation of space and further asked the Minister at the time. about the potential for, It is right that we mark the 50th anniversary. It was “laboratories orbiting with scientists from different countries a truly historic moment in human history, and we working together”.—[Official Report, 21/7/1969; col. 650.] should also use this moment—I believe this debate The vision of space laboratories consisting of will help do so—to celebrate the United Kingdom’s representatives from across the rivalling world may growing space sector while looking into the future. I have seemed far-fetched at the time but, as we all hope to say a little about that. know, the international space station has now orbited In the 1960s, the space race was fought between two for over 20 years—a feat that has seen former Cold superpowers, the United States and the Soviet Union. War foes working together. Weshould not underestimate Since then, there has been a remarkable growth in the the power of space exploration to create dreams or number of spacefaring nations—I forget how many open potential. mentions I have seen in the press over the past two The UK is in a fortunate position and can be at the days of missions from India, China, Israel and so forefront of new future space programmes, but only if on—and an unprecedented level of international we seize that opportunity.Our reputation as the mother co-operation on projects such as the European Space of the Industrial Revolution and our leading universities Agency. I can give a commitment that we will continue and research centres are known across the world. to be a member of that because, as the noble Lord, While the UK’s membership of the European Space Lord McNicol, said, it has nothing to do with our Agency is not affected by leaving the EU, Brexit sadly withdrawal from the European Union. places in doubt our participation in other projects When many of us think about space exploration, such as Copernicus and a few others. we see those early pictures of Neil Armstrong and To finish, I remind the House of the response, back Buzz Aldrin taking those first steps on the moon—but in July 1969, to the Question from Lord Brockway. The it is also important to remember President Kennedy thenMinister,LordChalfont.agreedwithLordBrockway’s and his remarkable speech some seven years earlier in sentiments and added that such ventures into space 1962 in Houston, when he set America on its path to should be, the moon. He said: “a co-operative rather than a competitive enterprise”.—[Official “We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other Report, 21/7/1969; col. 650.] things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, I ask the Minister to take heed of that message in because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of future UK policy, both in space and beyond. our energies and skills”. I believe that the resulting Apollo programme was indicative of what a Government can do and how 8.24 pm quickly they can do it. It also shows what citizens can TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department achieve when they put their mind to it. However, as for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Henley) other noble Lords reminded us, it should also be (Con): My Lords, like virtually all other noble Lords remembered that it is not only hard but very expensive. —I exclude the noble Lords, Lord McNicol and Both the noble Lords, Lord Mawson and Lord Rees, LordRavensdale—Itoocanrememberthegrainypictures reminded us that, at the height of Apollo, 4% of on television 50 years ago of the landing on the moon federal government spending went into the NASA in 1969. I am probably exactly the same age as the budget. As a result, in seven years they achieved what noble Lord, Lord Mawson—but it is not unusual in they did. One might pause and think just how long it is this House for our minds to go back that far. taking us to sort out this Palace—but that is possibly I begin by joining the noble Lord, Lord McNally, in not the proper thing to say at this stage. paying tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, for While we recognise the achievements of the past, giving this boost to the People’s Moon project. Like we should also look to the future, where the United the noble Lord, Lord McNally, I hope that it gets Kingdom aims to play a leading part. The noble 93 Space Science and Technology[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 94

Baroness, Lady Walmsley, kindly said that we were legacy of Apollo. The Government have also supported doing well—but, as always, she then said that we could a series of outreach activities to engage the next generation do better. The space sector is a success story.It generates in space. an income of £14.8 billion, employs 42,000 people My honourable friend the Minister for Universities, across the country and supports a further £300 billion Science, Research and Innovation recently attended of economic activity through the use of satellite services. the launch of the Science Museum’s Summer of Space But she was right to draw attention to the need to do activities, which included two new exhibits: the Apollo 10 more. I can confirm that we are involved in programmes command module which orbited the moon on the dealing with debris removal and that we are committed final test mission before the Apollo 11 landing and to the Sutherland spaceport in Scotland and will continue Tim Peake’s Soyuz spacecraft which safely returned to be so whatever happens. Scotland is the best place Tim and other astronauts to earth in 2016 following in the UK for vertical rocket launch. We are in regular their stay in the International Space Station. I believe discussions with the Scottish Government about that making use of those opportunities is a good way development of spaceports. of marking the historic anniversary and I can think of The UK is also a world leader in space science—in no better way for Members of this House to mark it designing, developing and operating spacecraft in the than by visiting the museum and seeing those historic most challenging environments imaginable and returning artefacts which are a physical reminder of the data and observations. We are working closely with extraordinary feats of space exploration and, as is industry and, I want to emphasise, our world-class clear from noble Lords’ memories of just how crude university sector, which both help to grow the UK the equipment was, the bravery of those astronauts space sector further as part of our modern industrial and the ingenuity of the scientists and engineers who strategy,referred to by the noble Baroness,Lady Walmsley. supported them on their missions. I conclude by stating that the Government recognise I have mentioned this to the House before, but I will the historic and scientific significance of the Apollo 11 mention again that I saw for myself the results of landing and the potential that space has to improve some of that work when I visited a company designing, our life on earth. We are seeing rapid growth in the building and exploiting the data from microsatellites UK space industry and will continue to support it in Glasgow. The noble Baroness talked about the through the industrial strategy, which includes a strength of Glasgow in that field. Why does a company programme to establish small satellite launch capability that comes from the west coast of America want to from UK soil as well as investments in new space build satellites in Glasgow? The simple fact is that the infrastructure such as the National Satellite Test Facility expertise and the universities are there and it is a jolly at Harwell. Last week the Government also announced good place to work. We should be proud of that. a £40 million investment in Space Park Leicester through The UK Space Agency also delivers a space science the UK research partnership investment fund, leveraging and space exploration programme through the European further private investment. Again, I note what the Space Agency and in partnership with other agencies noble Lord, Lord Rees, said about the need for private around the world, funding cutting-edge technologies investment in this field, and further public investment and inspiring the next generation of scientists and by the likes of Lockheed, Amazon and others. engineers. As I said, we will also continue to be a member of the European Space Agency once we leave the European I was grateful for the reminder from the real expert Union and we will work with other partners as part of in this debate; the noble Lord, Lord Rees. There is a humanity’s efforts to explore the final frontier while range of different experts in this debate, but I think engaging the public in our efforts to help the UK lead that the noble Lord is the one with the most pertinent the new space age. expertise. He reminded us of our expertise and that of the European Space Agency in unmanned flight. There is a real opportunity for the UK space sector to 8.37 pm strengthen its international relationships and enhance bilateral opportunities while continuing to collaborate Sitting suspended. with our close partners across Europe. My honourable friend the Science Minister will be speaking more about this tomorrow at the Policy Exchange, including Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill about our plans to increase collaboration with NASA Committee (Continued) as we approach the moon landing anniversary. I will mention public engagement and the Apollo 11 8.45 pm anniversary, because the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, asked how we would celebrate that anniversary. We Amendment 12 have conducted a crowd-sourced history campaign, capturing the memories of those who are old enough Moved by Lord Empey to remember 1969—unlike the noble Lord, Lord McNicol 12: Clause 3, page 3, line 39, at end insert— —when humans first walked on the moon. The UK “( ) After making a report under subsection (1), the Space Agency and the Arts and Humanities Research Secretary of State must publish a report on or before 10 Council will publish a collection of those memories September 2019 on progress on the establishment of a later this week, which will include newly unearthed Renewable Heat Incentive Hardship Unit in the photographs and stories that highlight the lasting Department for the Economy.” 95 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 96

Lord Empey (UUP): My Lords, the Committee will I come now to Amendment 13. We have all agreed see that I have a number of issues in Amendments 12 that the welfare system was in urgent need of reform. to 16. I have to say—I have said this to the Minister It was unwieldy,far too complicated and, most important, before—that I believe that this Bill, which was set out it was not properly supporting people into work. Yet, to be a relatively simple exercise, has now transformed instead of simplifying the overall benefits system, the itself into something totally different. The noble Lord, reforms made it even more difficult, with new layers of Lord Cormack, described it as a Christmas tree, so I complexity and added delay. In 2015, the local political take the view that if people at the other end are parties in Northern Ireland agreed that a package of entitled to put baubles on the Christmas tree, I can put measures was required. This included support for tinsel on it. Let us be under no illusion. Once the dam people moving from DLA to PIP, or perhaps from is breached, people will flow through with their own DLA to nothing at all, as well as many other issues, ideas and are perfectly entitled to do it. I have chosen a such as additional support for the independent advice number of things because I believe they are very sector. One of the most important mitigations was in important to the people of Northern Ireland. Most of relation to the social sector size criteria. While we can them are not being addressed, yet people are in significant all accept the principle behind families being allocated difficulty as a result. homes that most reflect their needs, the reality in Northern Ireland did not—and, shamefully, still does I will start with Amendment 12. The RHI has not—have the stock to reflect modern demand; in proven to be one of the most significant developments other words, there are insufficient homes for single in Northern Ireland in recent years. It was ostensibly people or small families. the reason Sinn Féin collapsed the Executive in 2017. I have never believed that that was the only reason. If, as is so greatly feared, the current mitigations Nevertheless, it is on paper as the reason. As we expire next March and nothing is there to replace discovered when dealing with rates and the renewable them, many thousands of local families face the prospect heat incentive in March, many people are in great of serious financial hardship. Let us take the bedroom distress as a result. tax alone: a massive 34,000 households would lose support valued at £22 million per annum. I repeat: this After we had discussed things, the Minister promised is not because people are refusing to downsize; it is that a unit would be established within the Department because there are literally not the houses for people to for the Economy to look at the individual circumstances downsize to. It is as simple as that. There have been of everybody who was at risk and at a loss as a result talks between the parties of Northern Ireland in recent of the change in the premiums being paid for the use months on the issue of future mitigation. I am told of the boilers. It appears to me that the department that they have gone quite well so far, yet the Department has taken an exceptionally narrow view of what that for Communities in Belfast has repeatedly said that means and is confining itself to European Union rules decisions on the provision of any future support from stipulating that it could provide loans at commercial April next year can be a matter only for incoming rates for up to six months and that would probably be Ministers. That is why I have tabled this amendment as far as it could go. That is no use to the people. and put the realistic timeframe of December on it. In the debate earlier,before the dinner-break business, On Amendment 15, the Minister will be aware that people referred to undertakings that the Government we have a serious problem with suicide in Northern gave. In this particular case, the relevant Minister at Ireland. It is at the highest level in the whole of the the time appealed to the banks in writing for them United Kingdom. Troubles-related issues may be part to lend to people who were going to operate these of it; indeed, I have no doubt that that is the case. But boilers. The banks responded to the Minister, loaning we are the only UK region without a current mental money on the undertaking that the rights were being health strategy and our funding per capita for mental grandfathered and there was a 12% return. Some health services is far below the UK average. We have people got these boilers, calculated the income that this very difficult situation, yet the Protect Life 2 they had received from them over the 20 years of the strategy has been sitting on the shelf for over two scheme, put that into business plans and perhaps went years. We are talking about individual lives; primarily on to borrow money for other related projects, such as the victims are young men. I believe there is widespread additional chicken houses and so on. They now find support among the political parties in Belfast to see that the premiums they are in receipt of are a mere this strategy taken off the shelf. I think this was fraction of those they had put into their business plans referred to last week by other colleagues here and that and were promised by the Stormont Government at everybody is on the same hymn sheet. At the end of that time. They also find themselves in the bizarre the day, however, the strategy is still sitting there, situation that the Republic of Ireland is about to nothing is happening and, without it, the departments introduce a similar scheme for 15 years, while the are not in a position to take decisions. The advice that scheme that exists here, which pre-dated the Northern the parties have been given by the Civil Service is Ireland version, will be continuing for its 20-year correct: this requires a Minister to take a decision, and period. So the competitiveness for the person using that is not happening. one of those boilers in Northern Ireland compared with in the Republic or the rest of the United Amendment 14 is about libel legislation in Northern Kingdom is totally destroyed. I say to the Minister Ireland. The noble Lord, Lord Black, has tabled a that this requires urgent action, and the action so far more specific amendment that will be dealt with later, flagged up by the Department for the Economy is so I shall not go into detail. Basically, we are on the totally inadequate. same page, but I was looking to try to give some kind 97 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 98 of kick-start to this. We have fallen far behind the rest themselves. There is a perverse situation that the more of the country, and I support what the noble Lord will work there is, the more they are making a liability for propose at a later stage. themselves. These are the sorts of things that are On Amendment 16, I have described our situation happening. with health time and time again. On Second Reading I Leaving aside the politics of it—I do not want to referred to the latest report from the Nuffield Trust, see direct rule; I spent years of my life trying to see backed up by Professor Deirdre Heenan of Ulster Stormont get going, accompanied by the noble Lord, University, its co-author. The statistics are sobering. Lord Kilclooney, and other Members who are in the Upwards of 120,000 people out of a population of House today, and we want to see it work—there is a 1.8 million are waiting for more than a year for a humanitarian issue at the back of all this. People are consultant-led appointment. Every target is being missed: hurting, and the longer the prevarication is allowed to if the target is 95%, most of the percentages are in the persist, the greater the risk to individuals. The truth of low 60s. We are not close to other regions in the rest of the matter is that people will die on these waiting the United Kingdom, and the capacity of the service lists—we have to be honest about this—and collectively to meet the demand from the public is simply not we are standing around watching this. I suspect that there. that is not a sustainable position for any of us to keep. We are flying in nurses from Great Britain. Their It is in those circumstances that I beg to move. air fare is paid, their accommodation and meals are paid, and their hourly pay is grossly above that of the 9 pm ordinary nurses on the wards. Although the agency nurses do a good job and we could not survive without Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD): My Lords, I support them, this cannot be a sensible or economic way the noble Lord, Lord Empey, in his amendments. Like forward. When people are flying in and out, they are the noble Lord, Lord Hain, I commend him for his not in a position to open up a relationship with a persistence on these issues. He brings home to us the patient or understand that patient. Moreover, different realities of day-to-day life and the need to have an systems operate in different trusts. This is an inefficient Assembly to deliver that. and highly expensive way of providing a service. Much more importantly, given that these are modest In our earlier debates we talked about life. I did not amendments that are asking only for reports, so I get into the argument about abortion, although I have imagine that the Government might be able to accept my own views on it—but we understand that the them, the positive might be that at least we would not fundamental thing is a respect for life, and choices. Yet be completely wasting our time between now and we know that the way in which the service is being October if it were possible to assemble really useful delivered in part of our own country is at such a level statistics and assessments that would enable the that life is being affected. If a cancer patient waits development of policy,so that as and when the Assembly weeks and months for an appointment, that directly gets up and running—if we want to be positive about affects their chances of survival. In diagnosis time is of it—it has something that it can get to work on, rather the essence, as many noble Lords will know. than having to start from scratch. This seems to be a practical suggestion. One can be very dismissive about Our situation is out of control, and all the projections commissioning reports and say that that is kicking are that it is getting progressively worse. Every quarter cans down the road or not making decisions, but in the the figures are worse than those for the quarter before. end policy requires information, statistics and How many times do we have to learn that? The fact is recommendations, and for them to be constructively that politics are being put before the welfare of hundreds used. I hope the Minister will take on board that if he of thousands of our citizens. None of us knows how accepts the amendment, it means what it says. The often we shall have to depend on the health service. reports should be not just a list of facts and figures but Not one of us in this Chamber knows how we shall be useful in terms of formulating policy that can be placed. Those figures represent mothers, fathers, sons implemented sooner rather than later. and daughters; they are real people, and they are suffering because the service is not delivering. Another point of concern that Parliament will have to accept, whether or not we get the Assembly up and running, is that the effect of the lack of government Lord Hain (Lab): I commend the noble Lord for over the last two and a half years is that Northern consistently raising this subject, and for the passion Ireland has fallen further and further behind. We may with which he has done so. To support his case, does be facing all the difficulties, which I will not elaborate he agree that there is also a serious problem of lack of on, of a confused and uncertain Brexit situation where childcare, and the dreadful waiting times for children it may be impossible to find the resources to catch up. in the NHS in Northern Ireland? The longer time goes on, with waiting lists rising and other problems such as farmers facing bankruptcy Lord Empey: The noble Lord is correct. All our over RHI and people struggling with welfare benefits, services are suffering, not through any lack of attention, the Bill that will be required to bridge the gap and get or any attempt on anybody’s part not to provide a things back to where they should be will be infinitely good service, but because people are overwhelmed. bigger and required in a shorter time than those two Decisions that were taken in the Treasury some years and half years. ago affecting the position of consultants’ pensions The noble Lord, Lord Empey, is doing a service to and other things are now impacting seriously on waiting the people by highlighting this issue, but it is of value lists because a lot of those consultants are absenting only if something gets actioned. I therefore hope that 99 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 100

[LORD BRUCE OF BENNACHIE] issues. Like him, we certainly want to see these taken the Government will accept the amendments and the forward by a devolved Administration. However, if obligation to produce reports, but also that they will these reports come through and there is no devolved recognise that those reports will need to be substantive Administration, the issues are so urgent and of such to be useful. importance that they should not be allowed to lie there. Action has to be taken. Whoever the new Secretary Lord Lexden (Con): My Lords, I warmly support of State may be, they will have to action these reports this group of amendments moved by the noble Lord, whenever they come through. I am delighted that the Lord Empey. I shall touch on just two of them. The date is given; it is certainly not an extended period of first is Amendment 12, which the Government should time to allow these reports to be brought forward. have no difficulty in accepting. I recently tabled a The noble Lord, Lord Empey,reminded the Committee Written Question asking them when the report on the how the Minister promised the setting up of the establishment of a renewable heat incentive hardship renewable heat incentive hardship unit, and that it unit, promised on 19 March, would be forthcoming. would look at each individual case. Many are in great The reply that I received on 20 June stated: distress at present; many are enduring tremendous “A call for evidence in relation to the form and function of the financial hardship because of the tariff that has now unit will shortly be released, and will close at the end of June. This been set. We have been told by civil servants that this is will inform the Terms of Reference of the Unit”. because of European legislation and regulation. I The Department for the Economy, thought the Irish Republic was supposed to be in the “anticipate that the panel will begin to accept applications in same European Union, and England is a part of that September 2019”. as well. Yet the tariffs in England and the Irish Republic By happy coincidence, the amendment moved by the are completely different from the tariff that has been noble Lord requires a report by 10 September. That set for Northern Ireland. The new tariff will put seems to fit in admirably with the department’s plans. people into great financial hardship. I appeal to the Like the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, I echo the comments Minister for action on this matter to ensure that on health of the noble Lord, Lord Empey. No one will whether in the Irish Republic, England or Northern doubt the deeply depressing assessment he has provided Ireland, the tariff is equalised, so that no one feels that this evening, following earlier, deeply troubling accounts they are being unjustly penalised for something that of the decline of the health services in Northern was never their fault. No matter whose fault it was, Ireland. It is truly tragic that health services have and we wait for such a report, it certainly was not deteriorated so markedly under this Conservative and those who applied to be part of the scheme. Unionist Government. Surely all the Northern Ireland I support the future welfare and mitigation support parties would give their blessing to government initiatives measures that will be in place after March 2020. We to reverse the decline. Therefore, the message must must ensure that those put in place are continued, and surely be action, and action this day. that people in the Province at the lower end of the financial scale do not face continued and further Lord Eames (CB): My Lords, I support the noble hardship. Lord, Lord Empey, in his amendments. In particular, I I had a keen interest in suicide prevention both as a focus on his remarks about health in Northern Ireland. Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly and when It is worth putting on the record that, given the I was in the other place. The strategy needs to be restrictions which he vividly outlined and the lack of progressed urgently.I say that because, wearing another resources due in the main to the absence of an Executive, hat, as a Minister, I have gone into so many homes the health service in Northern Ireland has performed where,sadly,people across every section of the community remarkably well. I know from personal experience and of all ages have committed suicide; it is not only how, with the pressures centred on it, the health service young people. I say this also having experienced it with in our community is struggling but managing to cope loved ones of my own. It is never more keenly felt than in many instances. when the experience comes into one’s own family The noble Lord also referred to mental health. In circle. Then you know what it is to be left completely the past few years, I have had reason to work with broken. You have no answers—so many questions, but those who were paramilitaries during the Troubles and no answers. We need to do something urgently, because who are now, as they see it, seeking ways to rebuild so many are witnessing the heartache of suicide. That shattered communities. In that scenario, it is remarkable is a reality across the Province. how suicide, self-harm and other degrees of self-inflicted Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Empey, mentioned physical injury are not being reported as they ought to the health service. The statistics are horrendous, but be. That is just one segment of a vast field that is remember, we talk about statistics, but each one of crying out for better finance, support, research and these statistics is a fellow human being. People are leadership. In listening to the noble Lord’s words on suffering because of this. There is a decline in the his amendments, I hope the Committee will take this health service. I pay tribute to our doctors, nurses and very seriously. auxiliaries and all who are doing sterling work in the health service, but it has been stretched to the limit Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP): and is at breaking point. Many targets are missed. My Lords, I join other noble Lords in their support of Many of our older people are lying in hospital when the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Empey. they should be at home. They want to be at home with I do so bearing in mind that these are all devolved their families, but there are no packages available for 101 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 102 them because there is no one to care for them in their talks, rather than the limited issues that divide people. own homes. They are then accused of bed-blocking, I know that ultimately what has caused these long two when all they want to do is get home and be looked and a half years is a lack of trust between parties. It is after within the confines of their own home and mistrust. There is no trust and confidence between family circle. them. Until you have that, you cannot have a coalition I agree wholeheartedly with the noble Lord that set up by the Good Friday agreement. Of course it is these are issues of vital importance, but we must that. While all this is happening, while they distrust remember that while we have the reports, if no Assembly each other, the people in Northern Ireland are suffering. comes into being—and I trust one will—urgent action must be taken by the Secretary of State. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Duncan of Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab): I support the proposals Springbank) (Con): My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, of the noble Lord, Lord Empey. They are extremely Lord Empey, for once again bringing these matters sensible, so who would not? The noble Lord has raised before us. Yes is the answer to the question; we will this on a number of occasions; in a way it is a cri de commit to report on each of these items. I could sit cœur, because we have all these unresolved issues in down now, but let me flesh that out a little more. There Northern Ireland. We should remember that this is is no point in producing a report that sits on the shelf. asking for reports, not action, because nobody can It needs to set out in detail the scale of the issue and take that action. the challenges to resolve it, and put forward means by which we can address them. We commit to reporting The civil servants are limited in how far they can back on each of the issues the noble Lord has raised. go. Every government department in Northern Ireland Either I or, depending on events, my successor will do has now reached its limit for what a civil servant can so. It is important to stress that we need to make do. The decisions that really matter now can be taken progress on each of these. only at ministerial level. If you compare the last two and a half years with other occasions, either when the On the RHI question, I had hoped to bring about Assembly had not been created or had been but was more progress, but I was reminded of the limited suspended, there was direct rule; in other words, decisions powers that a Westminster Minister has when trying were being taken by Westminster Ministers. Now, for to deal with devolved civil servants where there are no two and a half years, no one is doing anything. No direct means of instruction. We hope, as my noble decision has been taken at all, and it just cannot carry friend Lord Lexden again said, that we will be able to on any more. address the hardships and the widest possible definition of them, bringing up the points made by the noble Lords, Lord McCrea and Lord Empey. It is important 9.15 pm to see these in their broadest sense, as I said when I As much as we agree with all the issues raised by the addressed these matters previously. noble Lord, Lord Empey, and those raised by other I can think of no issue more important to mental Members of the Committee, particularly on the health health in Northern Ireland than the question of suicide service, they are all meaningless unless we have an strategy.The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, Assembly and Executive, or direct rule. I do not know was right to remind us of what a challenge it has been. what they are saying in these talks in Belfast. I know I thank him again for the work he has done with the what issues divided them originally—the RHI, the former paramilitary bodies seeking to return to a Irish language, equal marriage and others—but do wider community base. We will be able, I hope, to do they talk about what is not being done in Northern something with that. We need to understand the scale Ireland when they face each other? Do they talk about of the problem. The figures in Northern Ireland are the things that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and shocking and we should be able to scale that, so we others have raised today? That is what ought to be at can see what has to be done. On the question of the back of their minds when they are negotiating. If welfare mitigation, I give the same commitment: we it is not, it should be. will produce a report that sets out those aspects of It is a disgrace that we have got to a situation in mitigation that need to be addressed. which Northern Ireland is the least democratically The noble Lord, Lord Hain, brought up the question effective part of Europe. Only the councils operate of younger people. That was not part of the point of there now. We can talk until the cows come home in the noble Lord, Lord Empey, but I think it should this Chamber and the other, but without powers to have been, so we will commit to that as well. We have take decisions it is meaningless. I agree with the noble to see exactly how younger people are affected by this, Lord, Lord Empey, that we should raise these issues so we will commit to that additional report alongside. by way of the reports added to the huge list in the Bill It is important that we have that. now. The Northern Ireland Office and the NICS have As to the question of libel legislation in Northern a great task ahead of trying to work out the answers to Ireland, we will report on that, although I am not these questions. sure exactly how. I am aware that my noble friend I just hope that, when the Minister goes back to his Lord Black of Brentwood will be bringing up this boss, who is involved in these talks, he makes it plain issue shortly. I will happily commit to meeting him to her that, overwhelmingly and across the political and the noble Lord, Lord Empey, to talk about this divide in this Chamber, people are concerned that not separately, in addition to committing to that report. taking the decisions that apply to schools, hospitals, On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord roads, social services and welfare is talked about in the Empey, will be willing to withdraw his amendment. 103 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 104

Lord Empey: I am grateful to the Minister for his (e) requiring the Secretary of State to issue statutory undertakings. I am also grateful to noble Lords on all guidance supporting freedom of expression and sides for their broad support for these measures. It was freedom of conscience in educational institutions in an omission on my part not to have included the point relation to beliefs about the definition of marriage. raised by noble Lord, Lord Hain: I should, on reflection, (1B) Provision made under subsection (1A) shall provide no less protection for freedom of expression and freedom of have included that, but I appreciate that the Minister religion than applies in England and Wales.” has given us an undertaking. On the basis of what the Minister has promised, I know it will require a lot of work over the next number of weeks—that is the Lord Morrow (DUP): My Lords, the main purpose challenge—but at the end of the day I think it will be of this amendment, useful work. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, that by proposing and preparing reports we will ensure “prohibiting discrimination claims against a person or religious that, in the event that the Assembly returns, it will body for refusing to do anything listed within paragraph (a)”, have something to work with. Because, let us be honest, is simply to ensure that there will be no fewer safeguards the Minister’s department does not, on its own, have for free speech and religious liberty in Northern Ireland the capacity to deal with all this: it will have to rely after same-sex marriage is introduced than there are heavily on the Civil Service in Belfast, which does here in England and Wales. I genuinely fear, and I know and is dealing with this on a daily basis, to have believe it is a reasonable fear, that Northern Ireland input into the reports. That information could be very will be poorly served in the protections given unless we useful to an incoming Assembly and incoming Ministers make this amendment. in the relevant departments. So procedurally, if he is The extension of marriage in England and Wales going to do this, I am happy to accept his assurance was done by primary legislation, after many hours of and beg leave to withdraw the amendment. debate in this House and the other place. For Northern Ireland, it will be done through regulations, which are Amendment 12 withdrawn. not designed for highly controversial, sensitive and divisive subjects of this kind. They do not receive the level of scrutiny that this issue should. As all noble Amendments 13 to 16 not moved. Lords know,there is no opportunity to amend regulations. Therefore, the regulations must contain adequate Clause 3, as amended, agreed. protections from the start. There was a public consultation Clauses 4 to 7 agreed. on this issue in England and Wales before the legislation was even introduced. That consultation process raised areas of concern, such as religious liberty. These could Clause 8: Marriage of same-sex couples in Northern then be given safeguards in the legislation and included Ireland in the scrutiny received in Parliament. It seems that there will be no consultation before Amendment 17 the Secretary of State is required to exercise this power. There is no time. There has never been a Moved by Lord Morrow consultation on this issue in Northern Ireland, so the 17: Clause 8, page 5, line 35, at end insert— people of Northern Ireland are already being poorly “(1A) Any regulations under this section must include treated. provision— Those of us who were part of the debate during the (a) prohibiting any person or religious body being passage of the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act compelled by any means (including by the enforcement of a contract or a statutory or other several years ago will remember the quadruple locks. legal requirement) to— Not all the quadruple locks will need to apply to (i) conduct a same-sex marriage, Northern Ireland, but it will be vital that the necessary protections for religious liberty are in place. As things (ii) be present at, carry out, or otherwise participate in, a same-sex marriage, stand, there is nothing in Clause 8 to secure those protections, which must be integral to any introduction (iii) consent to a same-sex marriage being conducted, or of same-sex marriage to Northern Ireland. (iv) permit premises to be used for a same-sex marriage My amendment would require the Secretary of ceremony, State’s regulations to include provision in certain key if the marriage is to be solemnised according to the areas, but it is by no means comprehensive. The rushed rites of a religion; nature of this process has made it impossible to think (b) prohibiting discrimination claims against a person through the full implications, but these are areas that or religious body for refusing to do anything listed stand out. within paragraph (a); There is particular concern about access to publicly (c) prohibiting discrimination claims in relation to owned facilities. There are churches in Northern Ireland, employment for the purposes of an organised as here, that meet in council-run community centres or religion where a person refuses to employ or otherwise appoint a person married to a person of schools. Christian groups in Northern Ireland run the same sex; events for children on premises owned by the public sector. The concern is that a council might, for example, (d) protecting freedom for discussion or criticism of marriage which concerns the sex of the parties to make access to such facilities conditional on the church marriage, including urging persons to refrain from or religious body being willing to conduct same-sex marrying a person of the same sex; marriages. Such stipulation must be explicitly ruled 105 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 106 out. This is the focus of proposed new paragraph (a). take the protections we have both for those who hold This safeguard exists under the law in England and religious views and individuals on the other side who Wales. The language in the amendment of “compelled may have particular views, and protect them as well. by any means” is taken directly from the 2013 Act. I We are talking here about the same thing: taking what simply want to ensure that Northern Ireland has the is essentially in place in England and Wales and same level of protection. transferring it across to Northern Ireland. I have no Proposed new paragraphs (b) and (c), relating to idea of precisely what the Minister is going to say, but discrimination law, are also designed to ensure that it is my view and that of others from where we stand. Northern Ireland matches England and Wales—and, indeed, Scotland. When same-sex marriage laws were Baroness Barker (LD): My Lords, I speak as someone introduced in the rest of the United Kingdom, a series who has had the great joy of recently being married of amendments was made to the Equality Act 2010. under the legislation as it applies in England and They protect religious organisations from discrimination Wales. I simply observe to the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, claims for declining to participate in same-sex marriages, that, as someone who wished to be married, I had for declining to allow their premises to be used for absolutely no wish to do so in a place or in circumstances same-sex marriage ceremonies and for not employing that other people would have found offensive. That a person married to a member of the same sex. Similar would have been deeply offensive to me. I wished to protections must be written into the relevant Northern celebrate in my community, and I did. I was quite Ireland discrimination statutes. Without them, churches happy to abide by the laws of this country, which insist could be sued simply for requiring that their employees that my marriage had to be completely secular. It was live in accordance with the doctrine of the church on a wonderful, wonderful experience and I hope that sexual ethics. For example, I believe that the Church of many other people, including my brothers and sisters England diocese of Southwell and Nottingham relied in Northern Ireland, will be afforded the similar dignity. on just such a provision in the Pemberton case. Like the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, I think we are Also, when the 2013 Act was introduced, the Public closer on this than we are on other issues, but my one Order Act 1986 was amended to ensure that criticism concern is this. It is to be found in proposed new of same-sex marriage did not in itself amount to hate subsection (1A)(e) in the amendment, which refers to speech. Proposed new paragraph (d) requires such education. I understand that in the preceding proposed changes as are necessary to Northern Ireland law, new paragraphs, the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, seeks including public order legislation, to protect the freedom to obtain the same provisions that obtain in England to disagree. This is the core of any democracy. The and Wales, but I am not sure that how the proposed introduction of same-sex marriage does not mean that new paragraph is worded is exactly the same. It may everybody has to agree with it or that only one view go further, because in England and Wales we debated may be expressed in the public square. the matter of schools elsewhere. I simply say to the Finally, proposed new paragraph (e) deals with noble Lord that I have concerns about that aspect of education. Following the introduction of the 2013 his amendment, but I hope that the Minister will be Act, the Government made it clear that teachers had able to accept the majority of what the noble Lord has the right to express their own beliefs on marriage. A put forward and address this matter in his response. fact sheet from the time said that, “teachers have the clear right to express their own beliefs, or those of their faith, about marriage of same sex couples as long as it is Lord Browne of Belmont (DUP): My Lords, I support done in an appropriate and balanced way”. Amendment 17, to which I have added my name. Once Guidance in 2014 from the DfE on the Equality Act again, we should be discussing a simple administrative 2010 said: Bill, but instead we find ourselves considering one that “No school, or individual teacher, is under a duty to support, would impose huge cultural changes on Northern promote or endorse marriage of same sex couples”. Ireland without the consent of the people and over the There was also guidance from the Equality and Human head of their devolved Government. I am sure I do Rights Commission repeating that assurance and adding: not need to remind your Lordships that the Bill is being fast-tracked in a manner that noble Lords who “Governors, teachers and non-teaching staff in schools, parents and pupils, are free to hold their own religious or philosophical sit on the Constitution Committee have criticised as beliefs about marriage of same sex couples”. constitutionally unacceptable. The many people involved in education in Northern However,those present for the debates on the Marriage Ireland who hold to traditional views on marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill will recall the protections would appreciate similar reassurance and guidance. I carefully carved out for religious liberty and free speech. beg to move. As has been outlined, at present there is nothing in Clause 8 to secure such protections for the people of Northern Ireland. My noble friend Lord Morrow 9.30 pm spoke about the need to uphold religious freedoms, Lord Hayward (Con): My Lords, perhaps I may but I wish to focus on freedom of expression. It is a help to expedite matters at this point. I listened to the right that belongs to everyone in Northern Ireland, contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Morrow. It is regardless of their religion or philosophical views. important to note that we have disagreed on a number Proposed new paragraphs (d) and (e) outline fundamental of aspects of the legislation over the past few days and protections for free speech, which go to the heart of will probably continue to do so. However, on this any democracy. Discussions about marriage arouse matter, as far as I am concerned, the intention is to strong emotions, and this is especially true in the 107 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 108

[LORD BROWNE OF BELMONT] of marriage. The clear message is that God’s intention context of Northern Ireland, where not only are there for marriage was that two human beings would come large religious communities, but a wider culture that together. Chapter 2, verse 24, says: holds more strongly to traditional values around marriage “therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall and the family than other parts of the United Kingdom. cleave unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh”. There should be absolute protection for such people Northern Ireland people have never been consulted to discuss and critique same-sex marriage in the classroom, on whether they want same-sex marriage. One of our the boardroom and, indeed, in the street. Proposed most fundamental social structures is being changed new paragraph (e) outlines a vital protection in the over the heads of those whom it will affect. It is specific context of educational institutions. Universities, notable that, when same-sex marriage was introduced schools and colleges are platforms for discussion, debate in England and Wales, strong safeguards were included and criticism of ideas, and this must not come under in the legislation to protect those who did not want to threat following any change in the law on marriage. be forced to go along with something they disagreed Earlier this year, robust new free speech guidance with. It is vital that the people of Northern Ireland are was issued for universities in this country. David Isaac, given the same legal guarantees. chair of the UK Equality and Human Rights Commission, underlined the continuing importance I appreciate the words of the noble Lord, of this historical principle, saying: Lord Hayward, and the manner in which he has responded to the amendment. All this amendment “The free expression and exchange of different views without persecution or interference goes straight to the heart of our seeks to do is address the free speech and freedom of democracy and is a vital part of higher education. Holding open, religion concerns that inevitably arise when such a challenging debates rather than silencing the views of those we huge moral change is brought in. It will merely establish don’t agree with helps to build tolerance and address prejudice the same protections that those in the rest of the UK and discrimination”. are afforded. I am sure we are all united on the right to free speech The Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill and against compelled speech. For these simple requires the Secretary of State to introduce regulations and fundamental reasons, I am happy to support to legalise same-sex marriage, but the simple fact is Amendment 17. that regulations do not allow for the appropriate level of scrutiny and debate that such a monumental change Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown: My requires. There is a real danger that, with this legislation Lords, I join with my colleagues. I am a signatory to and subsequent regulations being rushed through this amendment and rise to support it. Introducing Parliament so quickly, those who object to the new law same-sex marriage is a move that has been highly will be forgotten about and their freedom to disagree divisive in Northern Ireland. I acknowledge that, as in threatened. the rest of the United Kingdom, there are people who hold strong views concerning this. I certainly know Those who are against same-sex marriage may feel that many in Northern Ireland believe strongly, as I they have particular cause to be concerned in Northern do, that marriage is between a man and a woman and Ireland if this amendment is not accepted. Even while is the fundamental building block of our society, and the law has always been in line with their view, they therefore that the definition of marriage should remain have seen a Christian-run bakery hauled through the unchanged. However, having listened to the debate courts for its decision not to support a campaign for and that in the other place, I realise that it seems this same-sex marriage. That case was pursued by a body, legislation is going to be forced on the people of the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland, which Northern Ireland. should be protecting everyone’sfreedom. Without robust In a relatively short period, there has been an reassurances, many will feel that the Equality Commission alarming abandonment of the teaching of scripture for Northern Ireland’s hostility to those with traditional on marriage as ordained by God. This contempt for beliefs about marriage will only increase. For example, biblical marriage includes not only the abandonment many churches, as my noble friend has said, hold their of it as a divine institution but a direct attack on it in services in community centres or school halls. They the promotion of same-sex marriage.This is spear-headed need to be reassured that they will not be forced to in open defiance of God’s moral law, and those who leave those premises because they hold to the biblical hold to the scripture view are held in utter contempt. teaching that marriage is between a man and a woman. I do not wish in any way to be hurtful to any The Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013 in person, but I also have to be faithful to and express England and Wales states on the face of the legislation what I believe. That is why I am in this House. I was an that no religious organisation or minister can be elected Member in another place for some 25 years compelled by any means to marry same-sex couples or and was certainly known to express—genuinely,earnestly to permit same-sex marriages on their premises. It also and honestly—what I believe. As a Christian minister, contains explicit protections to ensure that any person I believe that in Genesis, chapter 1, verse 27, under the who publicly expresses disagreement with same-sex inspiration of the Holy Ghost, Moses wrote: marriage cannot be accused of stirring up hatred under “So God created man in His own image; in the image of God the Public Order Act. The Government equalities spokes- created He him; male and female created He them”. person at the time, the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, This is a general statement of the creation of man in said: God’s image but stressing the distinction of gender. In “A belief that marriage should be between a man and a Genesis, chapter 2, the Holy Spirit gives us further woman is undoubtedly worthy of respect in a democratic society”.— details not only of human creation but of the institution [Official Report, 17/6/13; col. 75.] 109 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 110

It is vital that those who disagree with same-sex marriage So it is not in itself an expression of hatred, but it feel that they are valued members of society and not in could be in the way that it is applied. I have a slight any way ostracised by the new law. I and my colleagues concern that the amendment is unclear. believe that this amendment will help that. Maria The other concern is about the role of education, Miller, the Minister in charge of the 2013 Act, said: which has caused plenty of problems on the mainland, “Whatever one’s view about the marriage of same-sex couples, never mind in Northern Ireland, on issues relating to it is legitimate and the Government will protect the right to gay rights and so forth in general. In that context, express it”.—[Official Report, Commons, 16/7/13; col. 1027.] there are two issues that I think the movers of the This reasonable amendment is the least that can be amendment can take comfort from but should be done. aware of. First, teachers need to teach the facts. It is important that in any context, particularly if it happens in Northern Ireland that same-sex marriage is legalised, Lord Desai (Lab): My Lords, no one can disagree the fact of the law and the rights of that should be with freedom of expression and the freedom of people made clear in schools even if the school has a religious to assert what they deeply believe in. At the same time, connotation that says, “We in our faith don’t necessarily there is the freedom not to agree with the religion you agree with it”. The school has to accept that it is the are born under. Not all of us are Christians, and not law and that people are entitled to get married in that all Christians hold to orthodox beliefs.My one concern—I context. can say only that it is a concern; it may be an extreme Secondly, it is of course right for a school with a concern and noble Lords may dismiss it—is that, if religious background to want to communicate its religious there is such strong opinion against same-sex marriage beliefs—and nobody is challenging people’s right to in the church in Northern Ireland, if I were interested believe what they do. Nevertheless, in the process of in having a same-sex marriage in a church, would I doing that, discussions about the issue of same-sex have to leave Northern Ireland and go somewhere relationships should be done in an appropriate,reasonable, else? Would there be a general strike against same-sex professional and sensitive way. Some of that is difficult marriage by all religious bodies? to put into law.It is about the culture and the environment I do not know the answer to that, but I am concerned in which the issue is expressed. about it. This is expressed as being basically all about Many of us would reasonably accept that the speed Christianity and its particular orthodoxies. I am not a with which people have moved from resistance to Christian; I was born into a Hindu family, but I am an same-sex marriage to wide acceptance has been atheist, so it does not concern me. Nor am I interested remarkable. That is very welcome for those people in same-sex marriage—it is much too late for that. who experienced frustration and prejudice in not being However, I am concerned to get an assurance from the able to get married. I suspect that, in spite of the Minister that, if he agrees to these amendments, there arguments to the contrary, things may move more will be no compulsion on a couple in Northern Ireland quickly in Northern Ireland than some people think. to leave so that they can get married, that there will be The noble Lord indicated that progress has been made some facilities available so that they can get what they in that direction and it is one area where contributions want and have a same-sex marriage in a religious from outside this House say that it is now an accepted location. fact. The amendments are understood. They recognise 9.45 pm that people have a right to believe and they should be allowed to preserve that belief, but the balance is that Lord Bruce of Bennachie: My Lords, I welcome the they have to be careful that they do not impose those tone of this debate and accept that the main purpose beliefs or share them and use them to extend prejudice. of the amendment is to translate the rules as applied in the rest of the UK to Northern Ireland. To that extent, it is welcome. Indeed, there was strong debate around the idea that there was never any attempt to force Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab): My Lords, in anyone to be involved in same-sex marriage or be some ways the debate strayed further than the amendment required to perform or officiate at such a marriage. itself. I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hayward. That was absolutely clear. The law makes that clear His explanation of what he was seeking to do with the and I accept it entirely. amendment before the Committee was very helpful. But I have two concerns. I have a slight concern When the same-sex marriage legislation went through about proposed subsection (1A)(d) in the amendment, this House, there was a lot of debate about some of which relates to protecting freedom for discussion, the issues that noble Lords from the DUP have addressed. It was made clear that that legislation is permissive. It “including urging persons to refrain from marrying a person of the same sex”. is not compulsory: it is permissive. That could become a pressure or indeed the beginnings I disagreed when the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, of trying to convert people away from the idea of spoke about the fundamental building blocks of same-sex marriages. I draw attention to Schedule 7 to society. People in a committed, loving relationship the same-sex marriage Act, which states: should have the same opportunities as everyone, whether “for the avoidance of doubt, any discussion or criticism of same-sex couples or couples of different genders, to be marriage which concerns the sex of the parties to marriage shall able to celebrate and demonstrate that commitment to not be taken of it felt to be threatening or intended to stir each other as being a long-term, permanent commitment, up hatred”. and not be ostracised for doing so. 111 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 112

[BARONESS SMITH OF BASILDON] validity of that or the importance of recognising why Having said that, I think the points about this being that must be accepted and trusted, but at the same similar to the legislation in England and Wales were time the wider context needs to be considered. I hope entirely well made, as the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, the amendment we see coming forward addresses these said. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, the only issues. On that basis, we hope that this amendment part I have some concerns about is the educational can be withdrawn. My final point is: congratulations institution. I was recently fortunate enough to meet to the noble Baroness, Lady Barker. the head teacher of Anderton Park School in Birmingham and was deeply impressed by her dignity and her Lord Morrow: My Lords, I have listened carefully commitment to her pupils. I would hate to think that to what has been said in response to this debate and we would be getting into a position where other head sometimes I end up more confused, but that is maybe teachers who are trying to do their best for their more to do with me than anyone else. I take some pupils,trying to instil in them tolerance and a commitment comfort from the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, to understanding society as it is, would face such has grasped exactly what we are trying to do here, and difficulties as she and her staff have had to in very I will be watching the progress of this with deep difficult circumstances. interest. Maybe on this occasion I can look more to I look forward to hearing what the Minister says the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, for some protection but I would imagine that any legislation he is discussing because he has not tried to throw in other issues that with the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, and Conor McGinn are not there. from the other place would be along the lines of the Amendment 17 withdrawn. legislation that we have here in GB. Amendments 18 and 18A not moved. Lord Duncan of Springbank: My Lords, this has Clause 8 agreed. been a thought-provoking discussion. I am often guided by my own beliefs and I recognise Ecclesiastes chapter 4, Clause 9: International obligations in respect verses 9 to 10: of CEDAW “Two are better than one … for if they fall, one will lift up the other”. Amendments 19 and 20 not moved. I am heartened by the remarks of the noble Lord, Clause 9 agreed. Lord Hayward, because I do not doubt that he will be working closely with Conor McGinn from the other Amendment 21 place to ensure that what comes to this House carries with it the exact protections and care that we have seen Moved by Lord Hain in England and Wales and in Scotland. There are 21: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— elements which need to be recognised in terms of the “Pension for victims and survivors of Troubles-related incidents wider question of freedom of religion and freedom of (1) The Secretary of State must make regulations to give expression, and I hope to see those protections coming effect to a pension for those severely injured through no through in an emerging amendment. As I said, the fault of their own during the period known as the amendment from the other place has certain deficiencies Northern Ireland Troubles, in line with advice requested by the Secretary of State and submitted in May 2019 and we hope to see those improved through the work from the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Victims which I do not doubt the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, and Survivors, and to provide that those who qualify for among others, will help move forward. the pension should receive it back-dated to 23 December It is important, again, that we balance rights,obligations 2014, being the date of signing of the Stormont House and protections throughout, not least in schools, and Agreement. we must make sure that we are teaching the reality of (2) Regulations under this section must be in force no later what is going on. We need to make sure that pupils than 21 October 2019, subject to subsections (3) and (4). understand the wider question of relationships before (3) A statutory instrument containing regulations under they ever engage in sex education. I draw a distinction subsection (1)— between relationships and sexual elements; I think (a) must be laid before both Houses of Parliament; they need to be seen in that context. It is important to (b) is subject to annulment in pursuance of a remember that these issues have been addressed previously resolution of either House of Parliament. in different parts of the United Kingdom. These are (4) If a Northern Ireland Executive is formed before the not new issues. The concerns of particular bodies are regulations under this section come into force, any regulations made under this section and any extant not new and on each occasion I believe that the obligations arising under subsection (1) shall cease to different authorities, whether in Scotland or in England have effect.” and Wales, have learned from the challenges and have ensured that the protections which they have put together Lord Hain: My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 21, are adequate to address the concerns raised by noble which stands in my name and the names of the noble Lords. and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, and the noble I appreciate the concerns which noble Lords have Lords, Lord Cormack and Lord Bruce. I am grateful expressed. They are right to recognise that there is for their support. throughout Northern Ireland and elsewhere a particular I shall first speak briefly about the context which constituency which sees the faith-based approach to has dominated this debate. In 2007, when we negotiated marriage as an integral part of it. I do not doubt the the deal that brought Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness 113 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 114 into power together, I said that I was the last direct-rule have had on this, as well as for his support of and Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. I now very direct engagement with the severely injured victims. It much fear that that was wrong and that we are hurtling has been much appreciated. towards direct rule. I fear that greatly because the current situation has shown how difficult it is to get Now is the time for action. I urge the Government the Assembly up and running with a functioning not to divide the House but to accept this amendment Executive once it has been suspended. With direct with not only a firm and binding commitment to rule, that becomes doubly difficult. I say to my friends legislate but with the timeframe attached to other in the DUP—and they are my friends, because I measures coming from the other place and set out in worked very closely with them as Secretary of State my amendment. The date for this will be 21 October and have done so since—that I hope that they are 2019, unless an Executive has been formed in Northern taking note of what is happening in de facto parliamentary Ireland by then. direct rule. A lot of things that are coming through are things they are not happy about. That is the consequence 10 pm of the Assembly being suspended. It is not only one There are few Northern Ireland legacy issues that party—Sinn Féin—that is at fault. It is not only one come before us that do not have some element of party. Yes, it is at fault, and it is being uncompromising contention, and this is no exception. The toxic issue, on some issues and details—but, I am afraid, so are which prevented this measure being passed at Stormont my friends in the DUP. This is not just one party years ago when the Assembly and the Executive were blocking the whole thing. I think there should be functioning, was who would qualify for this pension. honesty about that. The consequences are here to be Will the few republicans or loyalists who were injured seen in issues that the DUP is deeply unhappy about. by their own hand—for example, when planting a In passing, I will say that, once again in the debates bomb that exploded prematurely—benefit from a pension on this Bill, we are seeing the absence of a nationalist for the severely injured? political voice in this House. Half the community does not have a political voice in your Lordships’ House. Of course, it is for the Government to frame the There is no modern Gerry Fitt, as it were. I know he details of the legislation by regulation. However, I was criticised by many of his followers for taking his want to make it absolutely clear, as is explicitly set out seat here, but it was an important voice to hear. I know in my amendment, that I am proposing and asking for that will be agreed by unionist Members. I hope that, the support of this House for a pension for those in considering future appointments to this House, the severely injured through no fault of their own. I can Government,perhapsinconsultationwiththeindependent think of few more perverse cruelties than for a widow Appointments Commission, will take note of that, who lost her husband in a terrorist incident, received because this cannot continue—especially if direct rule barely enough compensation to bury him and had to comes, as I very much fear it might. raise a family in the most difficult financial circumstances, I recognise that, as drafted, Amendment 21 is to discover that the person who planted that bomb—who likely to require a money resolution in the House of survived but was injured—was to receive a special Commons—or at least an amendment on Report pension from the state 30 or 40 years later. That would to incorporate funding from the Northern Ireland be shocking. Consolidated Fund, which I hope the Government I am well aware of the definition of “victim” set out will agree to. I have spoken many times in your Lordships’ in the 2006 order. This was raised in the other place. It House on the urgent need to provide a pension for was passed when I was Secretary of State. One of the those who were severely injured through no fault of aims of that order was to ensure that everyone impacted their own—I repeat, “through no fault of their own”, by the Troubles would have access to the services that which is written into the text—as a result of Troubles- they and their families would need, regardless of their related incidents. circumstances. We provide those services through the National Health Service and the Victims and Survivors I, and I know those who have been campaigning, Service, and we will do through a mental trauma especially in the WAVE Trauma Centre,which I commend, service in the future. That is as it should be. We are a for the pension for nearly a decade, have been greatly civilised society and we do not turn people away from heartened and encouraged by the wide cross-party services. support in this House for this proposal: from the former Secretaries of State the noble Lord, Lord King, However, this pension is a very different matter. It is and my noble friends Lord Reid and Lord Murphy; not a service but a recognition of the great harm done from former Victims’ Ministers who served in Northern to men and women through no fault of their own. To Ireland, my noble friends Lord Browne and Lady those who repeatedly told me when I was Secretary of Smith of Basildon; from the distinguished former State that there must not be a hierarchy of victims, I chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, the say: there already is. Those who had their lives noble Lord, Lord Cormack; from the noble Baroness, catastrophically and permanently damaged through Lady Altman; from the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, for no fault of their own by the actions of others are right the Liberal Democrats; and, from the Cross Benches, at the bottom of that category—that ladder, as it were. from the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, They are not asking for much—around £150 weekly, the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, and the noble backdated to the all-party Stormont House agreement Lord, Lord Bew. I am also grateful to the Minister, the of 23 December 2014 covering such matters. It would noble Lord, Lord Duncan, who, to use a colloquialism, cost a few million pounds annually, which is peanuts gets it. I thank him for the detailed conversations we in terms of the total Northern Ireland budget. 115 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 116

[LORD HAIN] other place, there were always at least one or two I will remind your Lordships of the harrowing SDLP Members. In my time as chairman of the story of one such severely injured victim. Peter was Northern Ireland Affairs Committee,Alasdair McDonnell shot in 1979—when he was 26 years old—by a loyalist was one of the most supportive members of the gunman who came to the wrong address. His father committee. Whether on organised crime, the prison arrived at the scene, thought his son Peter had been service or the Omagh bombing, all our reports were killed and dropped dead on the spot from a massive unanimous, and Alasdair McDonnell played a very heart attack. Peter has been wheelchair bound ever constructive and important part in that. It would be since and survives on benefits. He is now aged 67. He very good to have a moderate nationalist voice in your had to watch his childhood sweetheart—the love Lordships’House. As far as the other House is concerned, of his life—drink herself to death by the age of 51 of course, they have to get themselves elected. It is one because she opened the door to the gunman and never of the sad facts of life that those nationalists who are forgave herself. elected draw the money but do not play a part. That is He was asked what difference a modest pension up to them, but it would be very good to have a would make to his life. He said: “I could get the grass moderate nationalist voice in Parliament again. cut. I could replace a slate on the roof. I could get I conclude by emphasising how crucial it is that someone in for a bit of extra cleaning. That would action is taken—and this week. We need to know that make all the difference in the world to me”. We can this will happen. As I have said before in your Lordships’ help Peter and the relatively small number of others House, many of those who would have been eligible who are suffering so much. If that cannot or will not are no more; they have died. In the course of this be done by the Assembly and Executive in Northern calendar year, between now and the end of the year, Ireland for whatever reason, we must do it here—and more will die. Many are suffering great privation and without delay. hardship, live in constant pain and are constantly I urge the Minister to accept this amendment, or at haunted by the memory of the bestial act that deprived least by Wednesday, on Report, to bring a technically them of limbs and, to a degree, of liberty—because improved version. I am happy to agree it if at all you do not have complete freedom if you have been so possible, provided that we deliver this pension and badly injured mentally, physically or both. So I very deliver it soon, as every month that passes means that much hope that my noble friend the Minister will be some of the severely injured could pass, too. Stormont, able to assure your Lordships’ House tonight that, on Parliament and the Government have prevaricated on Wednesday, we will have a workable, acceptable this for far too long. We must act now, at long last. amendment. I am delighted to give this my support.

Lord Eames: My Lords, I am honoured to add my name to this amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Hain. Lord Bruce of Bennachie: My Lords, I had no I speak from years of experience, working with people hesitation in signing the amendment, and was proud who carry in their mind and body the scars of our to do so. Like everybody else, I commend the noble Troubles. I will be very brief. If this Bill achieves Lord, Lord Hain, for the deep persistence and nothing more than opening the door to some relief for commitment that he manifests every time he speaks on these unfortunate fellow citizens, we will have achieved this subject. It is somewhat disturbing to think that it an abundance. The noble Lord, Lord Hain, has referred is 21 years since the Troubles ended: these people have to one case; I could repeat dozens of them. I simply suffered for decades. Although there is consensus across say to the House and to the Minister that this is a the piece that the pensions should be delivered, it still reform that is passionately and greatly needed in Northern has not happened. This is a point at which we can set Ireland. I urge the House to accept it. down a mark of real commitment to recognise, while those people can still benefit, that we can do something Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, I am delighted to about this. add my voice, and pay tribute not only to the noble Our debates today should give Northern Ireland Lord, Lord Hain, who has been indefatigable in the politicians real cause for reflection. Increasingly, this way he has led this campaign, but to my noble friend House is discussing any and every issue relating to the Lord Duncan, who has been most receptive when we people of Northern Ireland, because there is no Assembly have met with him and talked about it. I agreed very or Executive to do it. They should be asking themselves, much with what the noble Lord, Lord Hain, said at “Why aren’t we delivering this pension? Why aren’t we the beginning of his remarks. I will emphasise just two delivering better healthcare? Why aren’t we doing it?”. points. It is incumbent on all politicians in Northern I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hain, that the Ireland to realise—Christians above all must realise things that appear to divide them do not seem, to us this—that no one is perfect. We are all sinners. Whatever living on this side, to be the issues that the people of party we are talking of is never wholly in the right. It is Northern Ireland want to unite them—such as dealing crucial that this is recognised in Northern Ireland by with the day-to-day issues and compensating people Sinn Féin, the DUP and all parties, and that they for their past suffering. come together to make sure that the Assembly meets The amendment is simple, crisp and clear. If it is and the Executive is formed. The noble Lord, Lord Hain, deficient in terms of a money resolution, the Government was right to stress that point. have the capacity to do something about that, and He was also right to stress that we have no nationalist I hope they will feel able to do so. I commend the voice now—no moderate nationalist voice—in either Minister, because every time this issue has been raised House of Parliament. Throughout my time in the he has demonstrated total commitment, understanding 117 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 118 and engagement—and frustration, perhaps, that the terrorist knocked at the door and said, “Are you technical difficulties seem to get in the way. I hope that Derek?”. Then they opened up their AK-47 and shot he has been able to cut through them and can give us a him to bits. Yes, there is agony and pain. It is real. positive answer now. That is why it was vital that I found the noble Lord’s phrase, Baroness O’Loan (CB): My Lords, I want to add a “severely injured through no fault of their own”, brief word to what the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and in the amendment. It would be so hurtful to think that others have said. Unfortunately, many of us have seen, any person who was out to act as a terrorist, taking met, worked with and tried to help people whose lives away some other innocent life or destroying some have been shattered by bomb and bullet. I thank the other innocent family, could enjoy the rewards of a Minister because I understand that he is considering pension. I am delighted that the noble Lord has said this idea: I am sure the Government will find the that clearly, and I trust that that will be heard in money to pay these pensions to such a very small Northern Ireland. I trust also that that means even the number of people. I want us to remember, particularly, families of those terrorists do not claim that they are the children. There are many children living in this in this provision. situation—second generation, perhaps, from the actual victim of the shooting or bombing—and they may There are many innocent victims living under great well act as a carer for their grandfather, uncle or hardship. It is about time—it is long overdue—that father. That is a very difficult life, and they are subjected they got this reward, this pension, to help them, with to the risk of transgenerational trauma, of which many of them in their latter days. there is a significant incidence in Northern Ireland. A pension would allow for a carer, which might set some Lord Bew (CB): My Lords, I support with as much of those children free. strength as I can the amendment and the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and his colleagues in speaking to it. He Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown: My has argued the case with unparalleled eloquence and Lords, in his introductory remarks the noble Lord, persistence. I add my thanks to the Minister for the Lord Hain, talked about the Assembly. I say to him care that he has constantly given to this matter. simply that he knows that there is one party that had I want to pick up on a point mentioned by the three red lines before it would enter the Executive. No noble Lords, Lord Hain and Lord Cormack: the absence other party put down red lines; it was one party and of nationalist representation in our Parliament. I one party alone. Every other party in the Northern completely accept that that has been given sharper Ireland Assembly was willing, and is willing, without relief by the absence of the SDLP from the other red lines, to enter that Assembly and deal with the place. I am chair of the independent House of Lords matters that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has already Appointments Commission referred to by the noble mentioned. Across the Committee, many Members Lord, Lord Hain, and I am well aware of the problem. have expressed not only appreciation but support. He is aware of how complicated and difficult it is and I wonder how many people in the Committee know of the pressures involved in sorting it out, but I what it is to be in the family of an innocent victim. I wanted to reassure him that I am well aware of this stand in this House not to express somebody else’s complex and difficult problem. I say to the noble pain—although as a Minister, I, like the noble Lord, Lord, Lord Cormack, that I understand that it is Lord Eames, went to home after home. Hundreds, thrown into sharper relief by the absence of the SDLP even thousands, of families have experienced the anguish from the other place. and pain. Last weekend, on the evening of 12 July, I entered Lord Empey: My Lords, I congratulate the noble the home of a couple in their late 70s, both seriously Lord, Lord Hain, on his persistence in this matter. I ill. A boulder was thrown through their window into am also encouraged that the Minister said last week at their bedroom on 12 July in broad daylight, and they Second Reading that there would be no risk of a were terrorised. Tonight they cannot sleep. In actual person receiving a pension if an act was carried out by fact it took them back 20 years, because 20 years ago his or her own hand. The criminal injuries legislation, that same couple were, like a group of other Protestant if applied to this, would ensure that that did not families in Beatrice Villas in Bellaghy, forced out of happen. However, there is perhaps a risk with people’s their home by the IRA. They had to leave that home relatives. Whatever we do, let us be absolutely clear 20 years ago and now, 20 years on, with one of them in that the language of the legislation clearly reflects their late 70s and one 80, they are faced with that Parliament’s intention; otherwise, somebody will JR terror again. the thing and the whole process will become discredited. That is my major worry. With that qualification, I 10.15 pm support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, I think of two young people, 16 and 21, a brother Lord Hain. and a sister, my own loved ones, who left on a journey to show an engagement ring that the young lady had Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, I rise very got that day. She and he were blown to bits. A mother briefly to endorse and thank my noble friend Lord Hain died at 43 with a broken heart. Yes, I know that pain. and his supporters for bringing this forward. As he I think of another home where a father was waiting mentioned, of all the posts I ever had in government, for his wife to bring home some of the things that were my role as a victims Minister in Northern Ireland was necessary to build their house. While he was waiting, a the one that stayed with me and affected me the most. 119 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 120

[BARONESS SMITH OF BASILDON] (2) The first condition is that the Secretary of State must— The euphemistically named Troubles left a legacy of (a) hold a public consultation on the proposals in each not just physical pain but mental pain and anguish of the regulations; that affects later generations and both sides of the (b) consult individually with members of the Northern community, as we have heard. A lot of people were Ireland Assembly on the proposals in each of the caught up in things that they knew nothing about. I regulations; and remember talking to one man about his experiences. (c) lay a report before each House of Parliament on the Every year, a paper would print a photograph of a bus outcome of the consultations held under this that had been wrecked in a bombing. His father had section, including the number of members of the Northern Ireland Assembly in favour of and died on that bus, yet nobody thought of the pain it against each of the regulations. caused him to see that photograph printed on the anniversary year after year. (3) The second condition is that— (a) the relevant regulations under section 8 may only be This is not just about the financial need people are laid before Parliament if a majority of the members in. It also gives recognition to those victims and survivors of the Northern Ireland Assembly support the who will receive a pension and those who will not but regulations as stated in the report laid before who recognise how important it is that the suffering Parliament under subsection (2)(c); and and trauma experienced by victims over many years (b) the relevant regulations under section 9 may only has been recognised. This is also about health. Many be laid before Parliament if a majority of the have not undertaken the employment they could have members of the Northern Ireland Assembly done, which had a financial knock-on effect. This is support the regulations as stated in the report laid before Parliament under subsection (2)(c).” long overdue. I am sure there is more that can be done over time for those who have survived, but I think this Baroness O’Loan: My Lords, I rise to speak to the is a really important step. I am encouraged that we are amendment in my name and that of the noble and all anticipating a very positive response from the Minister. right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, the noble Lord, Lord Hay, and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, who Lord Duncan of Springbank: My Lords, I believe I cannot be with us tonight. This Bill had such a simple can give that positive response. The noble Lord, purpose: to allow the Secretary of State not to call an Lord Hain, has given a great deal of leadership. A election and extend the time for agreement to be number of Members of your Lordships’ House have reached between the parties. That was all it had to do. worked very hard on this matter, as have members of I guess that was why the Government fast-tracked it. my team in the Northern Ireland Office. The noble The consequence is that we do not have the usual time Lord and I discussed earlier some technical improvements for consideration and now the Bill has been extended that need to be made, which I believe we can make in a way which is unacceptable and which has the tomorrow. The noble Lord has also raised the question potential to do massive damage to the talks and any of a money resolution and a consolidated fund. I prospect of getting the Northern Ireland Assembly up believe we can address that. and running. I was privileged to meet a number of the survivors The Bill has two odd sets of amendments—the from the WAVE Trauma group. I recognise what they ones which we discussed at length earlier this afternoon have been through. I thank the noble Lords here who about Brexit, no deal and the Prorogation of Parliament, have given that commitment to ensure that their voices and those to do with abortion, neither of which should have not been lost or forgotten. Every day we lose be in the Bill—and then it has the Christmas tree from here on in is one day too many. On that basis, I effect. I do not say that in a pejorative way. These are hope the noble Lord, Lord Hain, will withdraw his all very real issues which may need to be dealt with by amendment. a Northern Ireland Government. It has been a curious debate. We have heard the Lord Hain: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Minister say that we cannot deal with medical schools very positive response and all those who have contributed at Ulster University, Magee, and that we cannot deal to the debate, including the noble Lord, Lord McCrea. with a no-deal Brexit, but we are here to deal with this I am happy to withdraw this amendment and table a very sensitive issue in Northern Ireland. I have listened revised version tomorrow,which I hope will be acceptable carefully, but I do not feel that there is an understanding to the whole House, including the Government. of Northern Ireland. We are in a very delicate place. We all agree that we want our Assembly back, but this Bill, if passed in its current form, would also have the Amendment 21 withdrawn. capacity to prevent that. We cannot underestimate the fragility of the Northern Ireland situation. I am always Amendment 22 not moved. reminded that peace agreements last, on average, for 15 years. We have had our 15 years, and a few more. Amendment 23 We are in a very difficult place. I know that Brexit is important, but, as I said in your Lordships’ House Moved by Baroness O’Loan three years ago, the border and all that goes with it has 23: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— the capacity to undermine everything, and that would “Requirement for majority of MLAs to support regulations be very dangerous indeed. (1) Before a statutory instrument can be laid in each House Part of this Government’s credibility rests on the of Parliament under sections 8 and 9 of this Act, the extent to which they are regarded in the conduct of conditions in subsections (2) and (3) must be met. these talks as an honest broker. The Government’s 121 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 122 response to these amendments does not seem to respect rising to 66% of men and 72% of 18 to 32 year-olds. their obligations under the Good Friday agreement Yet 332 MPs representing seats from outside Northern and other issues. It seeks to make a profound change Ireland saw fit to vote for it, and 100% of Northern in our law at a time when Northern Ireland is engaged Irish MPs in the other place voted against it. Noble in negotiation. It seems very odd that the Government, Lords should think about that. who are not charged with the conduct of these negotiations Apart from the issues at hand, think of the utterly and who have seen attempts to kill police officers and appalling precedent. The Minister told us last Wednesday others, who have seen the bombs and the ongoing that there is more to come. I appreciate this crisis is bubbling of terrorist activity, are not a little more not of the Government’s making, but they are now cautious in their outlook. The Minister spoke earlier engaged, whether they like it or not. Their response of the need for clear space and safe space for the can have the effect either of ameliorating or exaggerating negotiations. I do not think that is happening here the difficulty, with all that means for the union. today. It does not matter what one thinks about abortion and same-sex marriage or whether the law should 10.30 pm change. Nobody doubts the sensitivity of these issues The Bill was presented at a time that was practically for those affected by them, but the clerks in another difficult for Northern Ireland. Many of you may not place advised that these issues fell outside the remit of know this, but it came to your Lordships’ House on the Bill. Each of these amendments represents a huge Wednesday 10 July and the amendments did not reach issue which should be the subject of a Bill in its own your Lordships’ House until after I went home. I right, subject to prior consultation and then careful waited for them for a long time on Tuesday 9 July, but and measured consideration, with scope for amending they did not come and I eventually gave up and went the legislation. None of this has happened. There are home. After 10 July, we have a holiday called the options for everything that is being suggested here. Twelfth. Northern Ireland went into Twelfth mode on There is a variety of different laws across Europe, even 11 July and, for the most part, closed down on 12 July. in the context of abortion. In many states, it is only It was a Saturday on 13 July. Today is a public holiday permitted up to 12 weeks, with very rare exceptions; it in Northern Ireland. I could not get through to the is not necessarily the liberal law that the United Kingdom Northern Ireland Office. I have had contact from has. people in Northern Ireland telling me they were trying to contact the Secretary of State today. The Minister The clause as drafted is, of course, unworkable. The told us that she had gone back to Northern Ireland, Secretary of State has no power in the Northern but she was not available to meet anyone. That is Ireland Act to make the regulations requested by the because it is a public holiday in Northern Ireland amendment. Moreover, the law must be capable of today. Of course, the Twelfth is a time when many are being understood, yet what is proposed here is not on holiday and our schools are closed, so there is just clear. The Northern Ireland Attorney-General has tomorrow, Tuesday, when the people of Northern spoken publicly about the difficulties generated by this Ireland might have a slight chance to speak to someone, clause, which is vague and goes beyond the Abortion and then we move to Wednesday and final sessions. It Act 1967. Neither the Northern Ireland Assembly nor is remarkable that all this happened during the week any Minister has the power to repeal the Offences when part of Northern Ireland celebrates its culture against the Person Act by regulation; it is just nonsense. with the Twelfth, and a good Twelfth it was this Also, based on this Bill, it is not clear what legislation year—very good. or directions would say. We do not usually legislate for what we do not know. Today,the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, and I intended to send a letter to the Prime Minister. The Government have said that they will make it We wrote it on Friday night and Saturday, and started work. Are they going to amend the Northern Ireland looking around for support. I am not going to deliver Act? What is going to happen? Parliamentary rules it to the Prime Minister tonight; it is too late to disturb cannot be set aside without risking damage to our her.But since Saturdayafternoon, nearly 16,000 people—it constitutional arrangements. To make matters worse, has gone up nearly 1,000 an hour or every time I have these amendments were accepted in relation to a Bill stood up—have signed our letter to the Prime Minister that is subject to a fast-tracking procedure that, even asking her to stop this. They come from all sides of the without these far-reaching and completely out-of-scope community and every part of Northern Ireland. provisions, but simply on the basis of the Bill’s original I want to give you a feeling of some of the more purposeasintroduced,mustattracttheattention—perhaps prominent people who have signed this letter to the censure—of the Constitution Committee, which the Prime Minister. All Members of the House of last week reported that Northern Ireland Bills should Lords are allowed to sign; everyone else has to be not be fast-tracked unless they are really urgent. There from Northern Ireland. We have the noble Lords, is time to get this Bill right, and to get our talks back Lord Rana, Lord Maginnis, Lord Empey,Lord Brennan, in action. Lord McCrea, Lord Morrow, Lord Alton, the noble Many thousands of people in Northern Ireland are Baroness, Lady Hollins, and the noble and right reverend distressed by this. It is well known and has been said in Lord, Lord Eames. We have MLAs from all parties: your Lordships’House that ComRes polling of Northern Daniel McCrossan, Sinéad Bradley, Patsy McGlone, Ireland adults shows very clearly that people in Northern Justin McNulty, Robbie Butler, Carla Lockhart, Paul Ireland do not want abortion law changed from Givan, Arlene Foster—leader of the Democratic Unionists Westminster. That is the clear view of 64% of people, —David Hilditch, Peter Weir,Jonathan Buckley,Mervyn 123 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 124

[BARONESS O’LOAN] human right. There is no human right to abortion, Storey, William Irwin, Gordon Lyons, Edwin Poots, and I think that is slightly contemptuous of Northern Keith Buchanan, Thomas Buchanan, Gary Middleton, Ireland’s MPs. Michelle McIlveen, Joanne Bunting, Alex Easton and Maurice Bradley. We are into the MPs now: Sir Jeffrey The Member for Walthamstow, who introduced Donaldson, Nigel Dodds, the honourable Ian Paisley, new Clause 10 in the Commons, said this morning that Gavin Robinson, Paul Girvan, Jim Shannon, Gregory this is an attempt by the DUP to hold us all to ransom. Campbell and Emma Little Pengelly. The lawyers At this late hour, I perhaps need to assure noble Lords include the reverend Brett Lockhart QC. There are that I am not a member of the DUP.I am a Cross-Bencher councillors, such as Anne McCloskey, Peter Martin, and, as far as I can remember, the noble and right Robert Adair and Stephanie Quigley. Then there are reverend Lord, Lord Eames, is not a member of the academics, such as Dr Esmond Birnie, and bishops DUP either. This is something that a cross-party group such as Bishop Treanor, Bishop Farquhar, Bishop of 16,000 people are asking us not to do. This is the McKeown and Bishop Walsh. There are the doctors: truest cross-community co-operation from all sectors Dr Coulter, Dr Hardy and others. I missed the venerable of our community, from all sides, all places in our Robert Miller, who is the archdeacon currently running beautiful country. We have agreement that we do not Derry. want abortion railroaded through in the Bill. I ask noble Lords to at least grant Northern Ireland MLAs the courtesy, the respect and dignity of their roles as Viscount Younger of Leckie: May I just inquire elected members and allow them to present their views whether the noble Baroness is listing all the names on on this matter. I ask noble Lords to give the people of her list? It would be helpful for the Committee, with Northern Ireland the same respect and provide for the hour that we are at, if the list could be severely consultation. I beg to move. shortened.

Lord Shinkwin (Con): My Lords, I support Baroness O’Loan: The Reverend Norman Hamilton Amendment 23 and I pay tribute to the noble Baroness has worked on the interface in north Belfast for 20 years, for persevering despite her sore throat and inspiring and hundreds of clergy and ordinary people—doctors, those of us who support the amendment. I support it nurses and lawyers—all signed, from all sides of the because I believe it underlines our respect for devolution community. They wanted one thing: to be respected as and for the people of Northern Ireland, a clear majority people and to allowed to make their own law on this of whom, polling shows, as we have already heard, do amendment. That shows how concerned people are not want law changes imposed on them by us here in about this matter. London. My amendment would not prevent legal change on either abortion or same-sex marriage. It would simply I also support it for another reason. I do not take a have the effect of restoring some constitutional integrity position on abortion per se; I do, however, take a to Northern Ireland. It requires that there should be a position on disability equality. What is proposed in the consultation with the people of Northern Ireland, as Bill drives a coach and horses through disability equality. there would be with any legal change on either issue in I wonder whether my noble friend the Minister—indeed, Northern Ireland, and most importantly that the views whether anyone in the Government or in No. 10—has of the currently elected Members of the Northern considered the message that changing the law to allow Ireland Assembly be recorded for or against any abortion on grounds of disability in Northern Ireland regulations and that the regulations should not be laid sends to the people of Northern Ireland, to the devoted before Parliament if they do not receive majority parents and families of disabled children and, most support from those Assembly Members. One thing I importantly,to the disabled citizens of Northern Ireland. have not done is to introduce anything resembling a Today, Northern Ireland is the safest place in the petition of concern, about which I think the noble United Kingdom to be diagnosed with a disability. Baroness, Lady Smith, spoke earlier. The legislation If the Bill is passed, that will change overnight on could pass by a simple majority. 21 October. One thing I noticed this afternoon was that the I invite noble Lords to consider the Bill from the unborn child was largely absent from the debate. When perspective of someone with Down’s syndrome. In mentioned, there was in some quarters a rolling of England and Wales, the latest available figures show eyes and expressions of contempt. Yet it has to be said that 90% of human beings diagnosed with Down’s that abortion is about killing babies—real babies.Without syndrome are aborted. Today, in Northern Ireland, Amendment 23, the Northern Ireland (Executive disability-selective abortion for Down’s syndrome is Formation) Bill will go down in British constitutional not allowed. Instead, the culture is one of welcome history as one of its blackest moments of all times, and support for this disability. The latest figures from when constitutional due process was completely swept the Department of Health in Northern Ireland showed aside because of the conviction of parliamentarians, that while 52 children with Down’s syndrome were none of whom represents Northern Ireland, that the born in 2016, in the same year only one child from end justifies the means. That is never a good place to Northern Ireland with Down’s syndrome was aborted be. We have heard it said that it does not really matter in England and Wales. at all if Northern Ireland’s MPs voted against this, I ask my noble friend the Minister: is that not a because it is a matter of human rights and if you want cause for celebration? Is it not to Northern Ireland’s to be in the UK you have to accept abortion as a immense credit that disability equality is actually respected 125 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 126 there? He may be aware that next year will mark the but for unavoidable reasons he cannot be here today. 25th anniversary of the most important social justice He regrets that immensely. I want to put on the record milestone of the 20th century for disabled people: the our total and absolute support for what has been said Disability Discrimination Act. A Conservative and I, too, commend the amendment to the Committee. Government introduced it. How does he reconcile the Act’s acknowledgement of the right of disabled human Baroness Barker: My Lords, lest people watching beings to be equal, to contribute to society and to be this debate take from it a one-sided view, I want to say respected with the message of the Bill, which is that if that in 2018 an international poll was taken in Northern you are born with a disability, as I was, you are better Ireland which showed that 68% of the respondents did off dead? For that is its message to disabled human not believe that people should be criminalised for beings, their families and the people of Northern having an abortion and that, if necessary, action should Ireland. be taken in Westminster to make sure that that happens. That is why it is so sad that the party which swore to The Northern Ireland Life and Times Survey also respect Northern Ireland is driving roughshod over showed that 89% of people in Northern Ireland believe the clearly expressed views of the majority of its that no one should go to prison for having had an people to impose lethal discrimination on grounds of abortion. It is a poll run by, among others, Queen’s disability and to treat human beings diagnosed with University, Belfast. I know that the noble Baroness, disability before birth as less equal. How terribly Lady O’Loan, relies on the ComRes polls; people on progressive, my Lords. her side of the argument always do. However, they are not the objective views that she might lead noble I wonder who has the greater learning disability Lords to believe. here: those who seem intent on denying the equal right I have to say that, coming at this stage, the proposals to exist to those such as human beings with Down’s in her amendment suggest that these matters can syndrome or those, especially in my party, who appear effectively be blocked by Members of the Assembly. determined to unlearn the lessons of the Disability That is what the power in her amendment would do. Discrimination Act. I was born disabled; I will die disabled. That is the Baroness O’Loan: I thank the noble Baroness for hand I have been dealt. Indeed, it is the hand that most giving way. Will she explain when, before this time, I of us are likely to be dealt before our days are done. could have raised the amendment? Are we seriously saying, as we near the end of the second decade of the 21st century, with all the amazing Baroness Barker: I am suggesting that these matters advances in medicine and technology, that we are so could have been put before Members of the Assembly. regressive, so insecure as a species, that we cannot Indeed, as has been said, they have already been put cope with disability? before the Assembly,which failed to move them forward. Various commentators report that the Prime Minister I return to the point I made in earlier speeches. At the wants to leave a strong legacy. I am sure I am not the moment, there are people in Northern Ireland losing only Member of your Lordships’ House who will hope because no one is expressing views about the remember her speech committing herself and her things affecting their lives. The amendment simply Government to ending burning injustices. I will therefore returns those people to a counsel of despair. take the opportunity to urge her not to create a burning injustice by allowing the abortion of human Lord Hayward: My Lords, I will briefly follow the beings diagnosed before birth with conditions such as noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and echo what she said mine to be part of that legacy. If she does, no one in about blocking amendments. I take the point made by my party should be surprised if disabled people and the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, about time pressure, their families think that the Conservative Party hates but there is what one might describe as somewhat us and believes that we would be better off dead. unparliamentary or unlegislative language in the first condition. The amendment then goes on to refer to, In conclusion, there is a clear choice to be made, and not just by my party. The choice is for disability “the proposals in each of the regulations”— equality or inequality. I implore all noble Lords who in other words,you consult on each regulation individually believe in genuine equality to stand with disabled with each of the MLAs and other people. Therefore, human beings in Northern Ireland and respect them, the effect of this amendment is not to have a broad and devolution, by supporting this amendment. consultation. In reality, it is a blocking amendment. That is the only way this can be read, even if one reads it as having been drafted in the inevitable speedy 10.45 pm circumstances to which the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, Lord Morrow: My Lords, I have prepared a speech referred. but I do not intend to make it. It is a pleasure, in a I was trying to be helpful on the previous amendment. strange way, to follow the noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin, On this amendment, I am afraid that I find myself this evening. I heartily congratulate him because we looking at what I regard as nothing more and nothing know that what he says comes from the heart. His less than a blocking amendment. words have a ring of reality about them, of which this House should take note. I also congratulate the noble Baroness O’Loan: Does the noble Lord not recognise Baroness, Lady O’Loan, on her excellent contribution the difference between the people of Northern Ireland and on moving the amendment. While I am on my having some form of consultation with their elected feet, I should say that the name of my noble friend representatives and a blocking amendment? This is Lord Hay of Ballyore is attached to the amendment, not a blocking amendment. 127 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 128

Lord Hayward: I do recognise the difference. It is in should rest on these few hours in this place or the the noble Baroness’s own words, “some form”. The other place. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment form in which this is laid out is quite specific, and it is tonight, but I reserve the right to return to the issue in no more and no less than a blocking amendment. future.

Lord Duncan of Springbank: My Lords, this has Amendment 23 withdrawn. been a challenging discussion. I will be very clear. We have received from the other place an instruction on a Amendment 24 free vote where it was a matter of conscience. No party set out to move this matter forward. It belonged to no Moved by Lord Morrow party in particular; it was a free vote. We have received 24: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— a clear instruction; indeed, the majorities were very “Definition of Victim significant on this matter. It is therefore important (1) The Secretary of State must make regulations to change that we recognise that we have an obligation to fulfil. the definition of “victim” in Article 3 of the Victims and On that basis, we will not be able to support the Survivors (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 (S.I. 2006/2953 amendment as put forward. I will briefly explain. (N.I. 17)) to apply only to a person who is injured or Consulting the MLAs does not absolve us of the affected wholly by the actions of another person. responsibility of ensuring that the amendment is delivered (2) Regulations under this section must be in force no later in a practical, workable and timely fashion. Those are than 21 October 2019, subject to subsections (3) and (4). the instructions that we have received from the other (3) A statutory instrument containing regulations under place and those are the instructions that we shall subsection (1)— follow. On that basis, we will hopefully be able to move (a) must be laid before both Houses of Parliament; this matter forward. (b) is subject to annulment in pursuance of a I do not doubt that many views will be expressed on resolution of either House of Parliament. this, and that is important. Indeed, I suspect that the (4) If a Northern Ireland Executive is formed before the regulations under this section come into force, any noble Baroness and I agree that this would be far regulations made under this section and any extant better resolved by the Executive reforming. That is the obligations arising under subsection (1) shall cease to purpose of the talks. If that Executive can reform, this have effect.” matter can be addressed in Northern Ireland. Get the Executive reformed. On that basis, I hope that the amendment can be withdrawn. Lord Morrow: My Lords, I intend to be brief on this because I will keep before me what has been said in the debate on the amendment of the noble Lord, Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD): The Minister Lord Hain. I recognise that much of what was said suggested that this was an instruction from the House compares with what I hope to say. of Commons. I am still relatively new to this House. I The definition of a victim has been a matter of thought that this Chamber was essentially bound by great angst in Northern Ireland since its inception. manifesto commitments from the ruling party going Consideration of government proposals in the past through the House of Commons. As the Minister has been coloured by the dissatisfaction people feel said, that was a free vote in the House of Commons. If over an unfair definition of a victim. This has been a a free vote in the House of Lords gave a different running sore for some 13 years. We have met many result, would that not count? How is the Minister individual victims and several groups representing victims’ bound only by the House of Commons? organisations. The victim definition is repeatedly raised with us as their key issue. Lord Duncan of Springbank: If this House divides, We consider the 2006 definition of a victim and it will be a matter of conscience. If this House divides survivor to be unacceptable, unfair and downright and takes a different opinion, we will send that opinion insulting. In our view, there is a clear distinction in law to the other place. On that basis, I hope the noble between a terrorist perpetrator and their innocent Baroness will withdraw her amendment. victim. To equate the two is morally wrong and totally indefensible.Wehavepreviouslytabledlegislativeproposals Baroness O’Loan: My Lords, I thank noble Lords to change the definition of a victim, but to no avail at for their contributions. I particularly thank the noble this stage. We believe the Government should bring Lord, Lord Shinkwin, for a magnificent defence of forward plans now to change the definition of a victim those who are disabled even before they are born. As I so that there is a clear distinction between perpetrators said, I have listened carefully. I alluded to the timescale and victims. In any civilised society, it cannot be right of this Bill. Second Reading was last Tuesday in the that victims and perpetrators are treated as equals. We Commons; we got the amendments here on Wednesday believe that this could improve the existing climate morning. We have had a few days when Northern and context regarding consideration of the past and Ireland has been off, and now we are forced into a legacy proposals. position in which we still do not have the government The Secretary of State wrote in the foreword of the amendments for the day after tomorrow that are going legacy consultation document: to make this unworkable Bill workable. We have very “AConservative Government will reject any attempts to rewrite little time to reconsider,think, contemplate and consider the history of the past that seeks to justify or legitimise republican what the Government are suggesting. How terrible or loyalist terrorism or which seeks to displace responsibility from that the future of a generation of unborn babies the people who perpetrated acts of terrorism”. 129 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 130

A perpetrator of an unlawful act cannot at the same great interest the Eames-Bradley report, of which the time be a victim of the act they have perpetrated. noble and right reverend Lord is one author, recognising Someone who pulled a trigger or planted a bomb the challenges faced then. should not be treated in the same manner as their Applying appropriate caveats to our earlier discussion innocent victims. This matter is fundamental to victims’ with the noble Lord, Lord Hain, regarding the victims’ views. In our engagement with a number of victims’ pension, there are distinctions. None the less, if indeed, organisations, we have been struck by extremely powerful as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has said, these could testimony illustrating the depth and rawness of hurt perhaps be the seeds of a particular solution, we may and insult they feel at their loved ones being placed in be closer to a definition than has been the case for the same category as terrorist perpetrators. some time. The Government have already accepted a reporting The DUP has a proud record on victims and legacy requirement to publish a report on or before 4 September issues. In government, we quadrupled funding for 2019 on whether the definition of “victim” in Article 3 victims. We have stood against a rewriting of our of the Victims and Survivors (Northern Ireland) Order history and efforts to introduce an amnesty. Current 2006 should be revised to apply only to a person who arrangements for dealing with the past are utterly is injured or affected wholly through the actions of unacceptable.There is a clear imbalance,and continuation another person. In addition, my honourable friend the of the status quo will lead to further rewriting of the Minister of State John Penrose committed in the narrative of the Troubles. Innocent victims are not Commons that Her Majesty’s Government recognise seeing progress on investigations into the murder of that the definition of a victim is something that a their loved ones. I beg to move. number of honourable and right honourable Members have campaigned on for a number of years, and commit Lord Empey: My Lords, I think the exchanges to looking UK-wide at how we can make sure that during the debate on the amendment of the noble victims are duly protected. That is a step in the right Lord, Lord Hain, have the seeds of a solution within direction. We are closer than we have been before. Of them. I would be supportive of that. He made the course, there is still some way to go. I recognise that distinction between the provision of services and pensions historically there have been challenges, which I noted for people who have been victims, so we understand earlier, and I am aware that the parties in Northern that there is an issue there, but the whole question of Ireland themselves have not always reached consensus legacy is still unresolved. There are still proposals out on this particular approach. If we are indeed closer, I there, including the historical inquiries unit and other hope that we can make some progress and on that ideas that have been brought forward, which could basis I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to threaten and help to rewrite the history, as has been withdraw his amendment. referred to. But I believe from the exchange we had earlier that we are close to a form of words to find an Lord Morrow: My Lords, when I introduced my acceptable solution to all of this that everybody can be amendment, I said that I would keep before me what comfortable with and move forward on. I certainly was said during the earlier debate on the amendment hope that that can be achieved. of the noble Lord, Lord Hain. Having listened to what has been said, I will not press the amendment tonight. 11 pm Rather, we will watch progress on this matter. But the Lord Eames: My Lords, the question of the definition Government should take note that this matter has to of a victim has bedevilled many efforts to deal with the be dealt with. It will not go away. I beg leave to legacy of the past. My mind goes back years to when withdraw the amendment. Denis Bradley and I produced our report. We struggled Amendment 24 withdrawn. way back then with the definition of who was a victim. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, just said, the exchange Amendment 25 with the noble Lord, Lord Hain, earlier on threw considerable light because until there is a definition of Moved by Lord Black of Brentwood victim, not for Northern Ireland alone but across the 25: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— United Kingdom, that is accepted and incorporated in “Extension of the Defamation Act 2013 legislation and used in political dialogue, we will continue (1) The Secretary of State must make regulations to change to come up against the brick wall of this definition. the law relating to defamation in Northern Ireland to provide that the Defamation Act 2013 is extended to Therefore, I welcome what the Minister said in his Northern Ireland. exchange with the noble Lord, Lord Hain, because in (2) Regulations under this section must be in force no later the work that we have already done on the disabled than 21 October 2019, subject to subsections (3) and (4). and the victims of the Troubles, as the Minister knows, (3) A statutory instrument containing regulations under we have found many new avenues of dealing with subsection (1)— disability and legacy in these matters. I am very hopeful, (a) must be laid before both Houses of Parliament; as has been said already, that we are on the verge of (b) is subject to annulment in pursuance of a getting an acceptable definition of a victim. resolution of either House of Parliament. (4) If a Northern Ireland Executive is formed before the regulations under this section come into force, any Lord Duncan of Springbank: My Lords, I appreciate regulations made under this section and any extant that the definition of a victim has bedevilled a number obligations arising under subsection (1) shall cease to of people over a great number of years. I read with have effect.” 131 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 132

Lord Black of Brentwood (Con): My Lords, this had its own separate law of defamation, although it is amendment is also supported by the noble Lords, not one which has ever been significantly out of step Lord Kennedy of Southwark and Lord McNally. I with the rest of the country.Any outstanding anomalies declare an interest as deputy chairman of Telegraph will, I hope, be addressed through the new Defamation Media Group and draw attention to my other media and Malicious Publications (Scotland) Bill currently interests in the register. under consultation. But the law of defamation in I will make two general points at the start of this Northern Ireland has never been detached from that short debate. First, I am a passionate unionist and a of England and Wales, which is why, when the law was supporter of devolution, and I sincerely hope that, by last reformed in the 1950s, Stormont and Westminster 21 October, the talks process at Stormont will have moved in step. All that changed after 2013 in a way succeeded and the measures that we are discussing in which has severed the Province from the rest of the this amendment will once again be where they belong—in country in an important area of law when a legislative the hands of the people of Northern Ireland. consent Motion was not taken forward at the time by I would just like to add that I read the debates on the Executive. It is still not clear, even after six years, this Bill in the other place and listened to the debate why such an unjustifiable decision was taken at the here in this House this afternoon and I want to underline time to cut Northern Ireland adrift. There was certainly that I understand the passions which the issues of no consultation about it or consideration of the equal marriage and abortion—which we have heard so implications. No transparent procedures were applied. much about in the last couple of hours—give rise to in We may never know quite why the decision was the Province. I respect that, but this amendment should taken, but we do know that ever since then efforts have be an uncontroversial one on free speech and freedom been made to rectify the position with proper consultation. of expression, which do not produce such emotions A detailed report and analysis by Dr Andrew Scott of and concerns. Indeed, on all the evidence I have seen, the LSE, undertaken for the former Finance Minister there is a real appetite in Northern Ireland for change Máirtín Ó Muilleoir, coupled with a consultation paper in this area and frustration that, after six years of from the Northern Ireland Law Commission, scrutiny waiting, we are no nearer to achieving that. I am very by the Assembly’sFinance Committee and consideration grateful for the comments earlier of my noble friend of a Private Member’s Bill on the subject, have all Lord Duncan and his commitment to report in this ensured that this short piece of uncontroversial legislation area and to meet with the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has been comprehensively crawled over in the Province and I. I will certainly take him up on that, but I would and provided a very extensive evidence base for reform like to explain in these few remarks why I do not of the law there. Civil society has played its part, too, believe that this goes far enough. with a grass-roots campaign supported by more than The amendment seeks simply to extend the terms of 10,000 people, including, before her death, the murdered the Defamation Act 2013 to Northern Ireland, as was journalist Lyra McKee, and that continues to lobby always intended by the architects of that legislation. for change. This House needs no reminding of the importance of That case for change is overwhelming. It is clear that Act, in which so many noble Lords played such a that the legislation has worked in England and Wales. vital part. It was one of the most significant and It is clear that there is strong demand for its important pieces of legislation to come out of the implementation from the people of Northern Ireland, coalition Government, and it happened after a huge including,crucially,theacademicandscientificcommunity. amount of consultation and scrutiny. The Act was And the legislation, except perhaps for a few claimant three years in the making. It started life here as a lawyers determined to protect Belfast’sunenviable position Private Member’s Bill brought forward by the noble as the new libel capital of Europe, is not controversial. Lord, Lord Lester, and it was followed by a long Therefore , it seems to me that the key issue for us is: consultation, pre-legislative scrutiny by a Joint Committee why the urgency? Why do we need to use this Bill to of both Houses, a draft Bill and consideration in the extend the Defamation Act to Northern Ireland rather other place before it finally arrived here. than just waiting for when the Assembly and the It was not a long Bill and its purpose was very Executive are back up and running again, as we all straightforward. Its aim was to replace our out-of-date, want, and why is the commitment that my noble friend costly and overcomplicated defamation laws which made earlier to report back not enough? Those are damaged freedom of speech and academic and scientific very good questions that deserve answers, because debate, stifled investigative journalism, and yet failed they go to the nub of the amendment. to afford proper protection to those who were defamed. I believe that there are four compelling reasons. The In their place came a new law for a modern age which first is one of principle. This is a question of fundamental provided effective protection for freedom of speech, human rights. The existing libel laws in Northern both online and offline, by discouraging trivial and Ireland, condemned by the UN Human Rights Committee unfounded actions; clarified and simplified defences and many other international organisations because for those accused of libel; addressed the scandalous of their impact on free speech, deny to many,particularly issue of libel tourism; and ensured proper remedies for academics, scientists and journalists, the right to free those who had been genuinely wronged. It has achieved expression. Article 10 of ECHR, which is enshrined in those aims in England and Wales, to the great credit of UK law, protects the right to, those who drafted it and guided it into law. “receive and impart information and ideas without interference The key point is that it was always intended that by public authority and regardless of frontiers”. this law should apply to Northern Ireland as well as to That includes the public authorities of Northern Ireland England and Wales. Scotland, of course, has always and the frontier across the Irish Sea. This denial of 133 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 134 one of the most basic human rights has gone on for My final point relates to the issue of scientific and too long and cannot be allowed to go on any longer if academic debate. When we have debated the issue in we have an opportunity such as this to rectify matters. the past, the noble Lord, Lord Bew—who is in his Rights delayed are rights denied, and the people of place and has kindly told me that he supports this Northern Ireland deserve better, so that is urgent. amendment—has warned in a number of powerful The second relates to Northern Ireland’s local media, speeches that failure to reform Northern Ireland’s libel which has such a vital role to play in the proper laws would have a profoundly chilling impact on such functioning of democracy in the Province. As many debate, and so it is proving. At the time of the Defamation noble Lords will be aware, local publishers are now in Act, a survey of doctors found that half of all GPs felt a very difficult commercial position across the UK that the old libel laws restricted the open discussion of and certainly in Northern Ireland, and they can no the potential risks of drug treatment. Dr Peter Wilmshurst, longer afford to bear the costs of such an oppressive an NHS cardiologist, told the Assembly that he had and expensive libel regime. It is investigative journalism, spent four years fighting a US corporation that sued so crucial in this part of the country, which suffers. him for questioning the safety of a heart valve. The Alistair Bushe, editor of the News Letter, wrote to me Defamation Act has removed the chilling effect in to say: England and Wales. It should remove it for doctors in Northern Ireland too. Failure to act raises pressing “The need for libel reform in Northern Ireland is now more issues of health and safety, making this urgent. urgent than it has ever been. For more than five years there has been a discrepancy between the legal position in the Province Those are four very real reasons why we should not where claimants are not required to show that they have suffered gamble on the success of the talks and wait until the serious harm and the rest of the UK where they are. During that Assembly and Executive are functioning again—which time the financial pressures facing small media outlets across we all wish to see but none of us can predict. It may Britain and Ireland have increased making them particularly take weeks, months or years. However, the problems vulnerable to bullying or vexatious litigants”. arising from the failure to reform the libel laws are Gail Walker, editor of the Belfast Telegraph, echoed here right now. They are damaging free speech in the that by writing that, Province, undermining investigative journalism, stifling “an extension of the Act to Northern Ireland is long overdue”. scientific debate and, above all, disadvantaging the people of Northern Ireland. It has been six years. We Noble Lords should remember that under the oppressive cannot and must not wait any longer. It is time to act. system that exists in Northern Ireland, one defamation I beg to move. action that goes wrong could be enough to put a local newspaper out of business. 11.15 pm Statistics from the Northern Ireland Law Commission Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD): I will speak very consultation paper, which show that there are six times briefly. I think that that is the most comprehensive as many claims for defamation per capita in Northern case that could have been made in support of the Ireland as in England and Wales, underline the point. amendment. There is very little left to be said. The Of the 30 defamation claims progressed to the High noble Lord, Lord McNally, was going to speak from Court in Belfast in the past three years, fewer than five these Benches and wanted me to say on our behalf ended with a determination for either party—which that we fully support this. It is long overdue and was a shows how vital it is to introduce the serious harm very important piece of reform in the coalition requirements and prevent vexatious complaints. So, as Government. We cannot really understand why there editors testify and the statistics show, the case is urgent. has been a delay in implementing it. Clearly, this is an The third reason relates to the nature of Northern opportunity to do it. We fully support it. Ireland’s democracy and its governance. As the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, said earlier, Northern Ireland Lord Lexden: My Lords, I strongly support this needs more democracy, but to flourish democracy amendment, which brings back to your Lordships’ needs a pluralistic, lively and investigative press, vigorous House an issue of the first importance. Shortly after scrutiny of public bodies, open discussion, robust the passage of the Defamation Act 2013, I instigated a academic debate, energetic citizen journalists and a debate in Grand Committee about the overwhelming free and unfettered flow of information, yet the libel case for extending it to Ulster. I later brought forward regime in Northern Ireland discourages all of that. Do probing amendments to a Northern Ireland Bill. not take my word for it. Here is Lyra McKee, so The Government at that time agreed that Northern tragically murdered earlier this year, who had this to Ireland ought to enjoy the benefits of the 2013 Act say at the launch of the Northern Ireland Libel Reform and deprecated the Province’s exclusion. It meant Campaign in 2014: that, for the first time in our history, it would have a “My line of work means I often upset people in power. I often different libel law from England and Wales. Acute find myself threated with our archaic libel laws. I’ve become dissatisfaction was expressed across the House that involved with the Libel Reform Campaign because a muzzled the Northern Ireland Executive—which was then in press equals a poor democracy—and that is what we have. My hope is that we bring Northern Ireland into alignment with the being—failed to provide any explanation of their rest of the UK by reforming our archaic libel laws, meaning they opposition to the incorporation of the 2013 Act in can no longer be abused by politicians with things to hide ... For Northern Ireland. The Government pressed for an corrupt politicians they have become a means of silencing the explanation but received none. press. Northern Ireland can never be a properly functioning When I withdrew my probing amendment in 2014, democracy”. I asked the Government what further action they That heartfelt plea is an urgent one. would take if the Northern Ireland Executive failed 135 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[LORDS] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 136

[LORD LEXDEN] be taken into account in any reforms. I regret that I am to pursue this matter properly. Sadly, Ministers have not able to help my noble friend but I respectfully been unable to give me any clear reply to that question request that he withdraw this amendment. since then. The issue seems to have slipped from the Northern Ireland Office’s sight. I am glad that it has again been given the prominence it deserves through Lord Black of Brentwood: My Lords, I am grateful this amendment. to the noble Lords who supported this amendment. As the remarks from my noble friend Lord Lexden made clear, this is an issue on which we have been Lord Empey: My Lords, the Minister kindly accepted pressing for many years now. I remember well his the amendment I proposed on this matter earlier. debate in Grand Committee four years ago, yet no I fully accept that we were not co-ordinating on it. I progress has been made. I am grateful to my noble support the proposal by the noble Lord, Lord Black. friend the Minister for his comments. Yes, indeed, a He knows that and we have talked about this before—he legislative consent Motion was declined at the time has been to Belfast. He has explained exactly what is but no real reason was given for that and none has at stake, in a very coherent contribution. It is a mystery been given since, which I do not think is satisfactory why this progress has been so slow, but that is where when we are talking about an area of law of such we are. I find myself in total agreement with his importance as libel and involving such fundamental contribution. human rights as those of freedom of expression. This is an area to which I fear we will have to return. I will Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con): My Lords, I take up my noble friend Lord Duncan’s offer to meet have very few remarks to make in response to my to talk about how we might make progress in this area. noble friend, but I thank him for his long speech. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. There is no doubt that defamation law in Northern Ireland does not reflect today’s digital age. To echo my Amendment 25 withdrawn. noble friend’s words, reform is indeed needed. The issues at stake here hit the very heart of the relationship between citizens, media and the state. It is important Amendment 26 to deliver protections in the field of freedom of expression. Moved by Baroness Smith of Basildon My noble friend would like to see progress made to 26: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— update the Northern Ireland law and I understand “Historical institutional abuse in Northern Ireland: regulations that position. There are certainly parts of the Defamation (1) The Secretary of State may by regulations provide for a Act 2013 that could usefully be extended to Northern publicly funded compensation scheme under an HIA Ireland. However, this Act removed the presumption Redress Board, distinct from the Northern Ireland Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme 2009, to be of trial by jury for libel actions. This may of course charged to the Northern Ireland Consolidated Fund. shorten and reduce the cost of libel actions. (2) Regulations under this section must be in force no later It is of note that the 2017 Review of Civil and than 21 October 2019, subject to subsections (3) and (4). Family Justice in Northern Ireland by Lord Justice (3) A statutory instrument containing regulations under this Gillen noted the extremely important function of the section may not be made unless a draft of the instrument jury in defamation cases in the context of the Northern has been laid before and approved by a resolution of Ireland jurisdiction, in particular its role in finding each House of Parliament. whether the plaintiff has been defamed. As the Gillen (4) If a Northern Ireland Executive is formed before the review notes, juries in Northern Ireland have been regulations under this section come into force, any traditionally considered the best fact-finder to judge regulations made under this section and any extant what words or statements mean in the local context obligations arising under subsection (1) shall cease to have effect.” with its unique history, and whether they are considered defamatory in any case. These are matters that involve justice and freedoms, and on which the particular Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, given the jurisdiction is important. The devolved nature of lateness of the hour, I may not allow the Committee defamation law in Scotland is reflected in the fact that to enjoy my 15-minute contribution and will perhaps only a very limited number of provisions in the be slightly briefer. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Defamation Act 2013 have been extended to Scotland, Lord Duncan, for his discussions with me on my in particular around statements or reports which arise amendment and for the consideration he has given to in the scientific or academic field. this issue. My amendment deals with the historical Similarly, defamation law is a devolved matter for abuse inquiry and the recommendations made following Northern Ireland; therefore, simply extending the that inquiry. I say at the beginning that, as we discussed Defamation Act 2013 to Northern Ireland is not earlier today, this is not the only inquiry where the appropriate. Further, I understand that, prior to the absence of an Assembly has disadvantaged the people passage of the Defamation Act, the views of the of Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland Executive were sought as to whether The noble Lord and other Members of the Committee they wished to make a legislative consent Motion to will recall that I have raised the hyponatraemia inquiry provide for the Act to apply in Northern Ireland, but on many occasions now. It was an inquiry that I set up they declined to do so. Decisions to reform the law as a Health Minister in Northern Ireland after the should be taken by a restored Northern Ireland Executive. deaths of a number of young children. That inquiry This will allow the unique Northern Ireland context to reported many years later, yet no action will be taken 137 Northern Ireland (Executive Formation)[15 JULY 2019] Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) 138 until a proper Executive and Assembly are up and clearly additional things. If he can say something running. To me, that is a sad and terrible state of about the timescale on which he feels we can get to a affairs for the families of those young children. That point when action can be taken, the Committee will be issue, and many we have heard about this evening, tell very appreciative. us about the impatience building up in Northern Ireland among those suffering the injustice of local politicians Lord Empey: My Lords, this issue has been raised not dealing with their crucial issues. many times. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, may I pay tribute to the late Sir Anthony Hart, who have deprived the House of 12 minutes of her prepared chaired the historical abuse inquiry. He died suddenly speech, but the parties in Belfast could still surprise us. last week, not having seen the progress he would have It has perhaps been a depressing day listening to these liked to see on the recommendations he made. We are debates, but there is always hope. I hope that they will waiting to take action to implement his recommendations surprise us and start to deal with this matter themselves. to compensate those subjected to terrible abuse in However, I have to say to the Minister that this is a bit children’s homes where they had been placed by the like the carrot in front of the donkey: the closer we state, so the state had a duty of care. Those homes seem to get the more it keeps moving away, and it were run by churches, by charities and by state institutions never gets to the point when something actually happens. between 1922 and 1995. The very places where children I accept that the fact that there is money involved has should have been safe from harm are where they were its own implications, but I hope the noble Lord will be abused. able to tell us that this will happen, and happen on a My amendment would require the Secretary of realistic timescale. Sadly, Sir Anthony did not live to State to make regulations providing for a publicly see this, but it would be a tribute to him if it could be funded scheme. I know that funding has been one of introduced as soon as possible. the handicaps and difficulties for the Government, but the funded scheme would be charged to the Northern Ireland Consolidated Fund by 21 October 2019 unless Lord Duncan of Springbank: My Lords, I think we the Northern Ireland Executive are formed first. It can make some progress this evening. I thank the builds on the amendments in the House of Commons noble Baroness for tabling her amendment. There is requiring the Secretary of State to report on progress urgency. The last time the matter was discussed I said made in preparing the legislation. that the Government stood ready to move this through Westminster with a degree of urgency. The issue now, We have not gone into the detail; we do not think it of course, is that Sir Anthony Hart’s recommendations right to do so at this stage. What I seek—I am optimistic have been considered by the parties, which have reached about this after our discussions with the Minister—is a consensus—but it differs from the original proposals an absolute commitment to get the scheme in place in in the Hart recommendations, so there needs to be legislation so that no more victims die before they get some redrafting. We anticipate the redraft coming their justified compensation. towards the Government in the next couple of weeks. The route that the noble Baroness has chosen is one Lord Bruce of Bennachie: I support the noble Baroness’s that might introduce a delay, and I do not think we amendment. We have discussed this subject several need to do that. If she is willing, I will commit, in the times, and we all recognise that recommendations are absence of a sitting Assembly, to the Government in place. The Minister will tell us that things have been introducing primary legislation on historical institutional added to them, which has complicated the settlement. abuse before the end of the year—which I believe We are talking about abuse going back to 1922—nearly would satisfy her requirements. On that basis, I ask 100 years ago—and continuing until as late as 1995. her to withdraw her amendment. Let us be clear: these abuses have not been confined to Northern Ireland. In the Republic, in Scotland, in England and in the Channel Islands abuses have been Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, I am grateful unearthed, and Sir Anthony Hart produced a very to the Minister. On that basis, I am very happy to comprehensive report. When we read about the scale withdraw my amendment. of the abuse it leaves us feeling very angry that people who should have been responsible were perpetrating Amendment 26 withdrawn. those acts of abuse. I happened to read a novel last year by Christina McKenna called The Misremembered Clause 10 agreed. Man. It is a total fiction, but it is based entirely on the kind of abuse that young children experienced in Northern Ireland and makes a lively dramatic impact, House resumed. as perhaps a stark factual report does not. I say to the Minister: people have waited an awfully Bill reported with amendments. long time. Many have died and many have suffered. There has been a recommendation, and there are House adjourned at 11.30 pm.

GC 1 Arrangement of Business[15 JULY 2019] Town and Country Planning Regs. 2019 GC 2

Grand Committee that the regulations were kept under review and removed from statute if they were no longer necessary. A post- Monday 15 July 2019 implementation review was undertaken in 2017 and the outcome report laid before Parliament in December Arrangement of Business 2017. I am pleased to confirm that the review concluded Announcement that the objectives of the regulations remain appropriate in providing for the proper consideration of planning 3.30 pm applications; therefore, the national planning fees regime The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Geddes) should remain in place. (Con): My Lords, it is now 3.30 pm. I must advise the To ensure that the fee regulations remain in place, it Grand Committee that if there is a Division in the is necessary to remove the 21 November sunset clause. House, the Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes. This will ensure that applicants continue to pay a fair and consistent fee, and that local authorities will be Town and Country Planning (Fees for able to continue to charge planning application fees Applications, Deemed Applications, and have the resource and capacity to make high-quality Requests and Site Visits) (England) and timely planning decisions. If the sunset clause was (Amendment) Regulations 2019 not removed, the fees regulations would cease to have Considered in Grand Committee effect after 21 November of this year. This would mean that local planning authorities would no longer 3.30 pm be able to charge any fees for planning applications. Moved by Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Regulations 3(1) and 3(2) introduce a £96 fee for That the Grand Committee do consider the Town applications for “prior approval” for existing permitted and Country Planning (Fees for Applications, Deemed development rights for a larger single-storey rear extension Applications, Requests and Site Visits) (England) to a house. Perhaps I may summarise the position (Amendment) Regulations 2019. as it will be if the regulations proceed. This permitted development right allows householders to build larger The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry single-storey rear extensions that are between 4 metres of Housing, Communities and Local Government and and 8 metres for detached houses, and between 3 metres Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con): My and 6 metres for all other houses. Extensions smaller Lords, I beg to move that these regulations, which than this do not require prior approval and therefore were laid before the House on 10 June, be considered. do not attract a fee. Extensions that are larger than The regulations will remove a sunset clause in the 8 metres for detached houses and 6 metres for all other existing 2012 fees regulations, thereby ensuring that houses would require planning permission in the normal local planning authorities can continue to charge fees way, so would attract a full planning application fee for planning applications. They will also introduce a of £206. fee of £96 for prior approval applications for a larger The prior approval process means that a developer single-storey rear extension to a house. If approved has to seek approval from the local planning authority by this House, this new charge will come into effect that specified elements of the development are acceptable 28 days after the regulations are made. Planning fees before work can proceed. The matters for prior approval are an important source of income which supports vary depending on the type of development, and those local authorities to have the resources and capacity to are set out in the relevant part of the general permitted make effective planning decisions. It is therefore vital development order. A local authority cannot consider that the fee regulations remain in force. any other matters when determining a prior approval It is vital that we have well-resourced, efficient and application. effective planning departments, capable of providing a planning service that local people and applicants expect. The permitted development right for a larger single- Planning application fees provide essential income to storey rear extension to a house was made permanent enable local authorities to deliver this service, and to by way of amendments to the general permitted consider and determine planning applications. In January development order on 25 May, but the associated 2018, we raised planning application fees by 20%. This application for prior approval required to exercise that was the first uplift since 2012 and it has increased development right attracts no fee. Now the right is income for the planning system and enabled local permanent, it is appropriate that we should enable planning authorities to improve their performance. local planning authorities to charge and receive a fee We estimate that in England, the total income raised for the work that they undertake to process and determine through planning application fees is £450 million per the applications they receive. annum. If there were no application fee, this cost A £96 fee will be an additional cost to those home would have to be funded by the taxpayer. owners wanting to extend their homes in that way. I turn to the details of the draft regulations. In However, that fee is the same as the fee for other Regulation 2, we are removing the sunset clause of applications for prior approval, as the cost to the 21 November 2019 contained in the existing 2012 fees local authority of handling these types of application regulations: namely, the Town and Country Planning is similar—for example, demolition of a building, (Fees for Applications, Deemed Applications, Requests agricultural buildings and certain solar developments. and Site Visits) (England) Regulations 2012. The sunset It is not fair that this cost should continue to be clause and a post-implementation review condition subsidised by the taxpayer generally. The fee is less were included in the 2012 fees regulations to ensure than the £206 fee that would be required for a full GC 3 Town and Country Planning Regs. 2019[LORDS] Town and Country Planning Regs. 2019 GC 4

[LORD BOURNE OF ABERYSTWYTH] organisations such as the Campaign to Protect Rural planning application to carry out these works to a England, the Town and Country Planning Association house were it not for the permitted development rights. and others that have genuinely well-documented concern It will provide local planning authorities with resources that in the Government’s legitimate desire to increase that may otherwise have been diverted from other the number of homes, which we would absolutely planning applications. agree with, issues such as quality and sustainability In line with existing fees for planning applications are being totally neglected, and that the most recent to alter or extend a home, the regulations continue to liberalisation of permitted development on the high provide for existing exemptions in the 2012 fee regulations, street could be a blessing or a curse depending on local such as when an extension provides facilities or means circumstances. Councils’ only recourse is to apply for of access for disabled persons; those would continue an Article 4 direction to remove that automatic right. I in just the same way. know from personal experience of how difficult it was to get an Article 4 direction placed on our premier We continue to keep the resourcing of local authority office headquarters area that this is neither speedy nor planning departments and where fees can be charged simple. We succeeded, but it was an expensive, tough under review. Noble Lords will be aware that we battle. Do the Government keep records of the number announced in the Spring Statement that the accelerated of councils that apply for an Article 4 direction and planning Green Paper, to be published later this year, how many are actually granted? The Minister mentioned will look at new approaches for local authorities to other reviews; are there any plans to review the impact, meet the costs of their planning service through possible good or bad, of the extended permitted development additional fees and to deliver improved performance. rights, particularly on quality and sustainability? In the meantime, these regulations ensure that local authorities can continue to charge planning fees, including the new prior approval fee, after 21 November, thus Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op): My Lords, providing them with the resources they need to consider I drawthe Committee’sattention to my relevant registered such applications. I commend the regulations to the interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Grand Committee. Association. As noble Lords have heard, these regulations will remove the sunset clause to enable fees to be charged beyond the date the noble Lord referred to Baroness Thornhill (LD): I thank the Minister for and introduce an additional £96 fee for prior approval that concise and informative introduction. Weunderstand applications for larger new extensions. the technical purpose of the SI, and particularly appreciate the need for local authorities to be able to recoup their As far as they go, I am very happy to support the costs. The uplift of 20% that he mentioned was certainly regulations. The increases in fees in recent times have welcomed, although he is probably as aware as I am generally been welcome, but it is still fair to say that that there is still a gap. planning departments are still being subsidised by the local council tax payer. We should try to eliminate that Evidence shows that more and more people extend over a period of time. I agree very much with the their homes rather than move, so an increasing number comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, of prior approvals are being sought. Therefore, the ability who asked how the £96 fee was arrived at. It would be to charge for that will be welcomed. I know from good to hear that from the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, personal experience that there is a reasonable amount of because it is a fair point that there are different associated work involved, the more so in larger extensions. Those costs across the country. How was this one figure usually involve conflict with the next-door neighbour, reached? I look forward to hearing that. who of course has no means of stopping the development because these are permitted developments. Despite I have mentioned many times during these debates that, councillors and officers get drawn in and it all that the Government often want to try new things out, takes time. I am curious about how the nationally set such as new pilot schemes. I have asked many times: cost of £96 has been arrived at, alongside other fees. why can we not find just one volunteer authority to Perhaps the Minister could point me in the right look at full cost recovery of planning fees? Surely we direction for an explanation. can find just one council in England to do that for us As the Minister said, councils need well-resourced to see whether full cost recovery would work. It might planning departments to deliver the Government’s not, and the pilot might show that that is the case, but ambitious housing agenda; on that we agree. There is I cannot see why we cannot find just one council also a national shortage of planning officers, and the somewhere in England to pilot full cost recovery on cost of living in different parts of the country differs planning fees for the Government to see what effect it considerably and means that councils struggle to recruit has. We hear lots of stuff about planning, most of it a or have to pay higher salaries if they are to function. load of old nonsense about how planning committees Yet these fees are nationally set, so from Land’s End to and planning departments are holding up all this John O’Groats they are the same. Are there any plans housebuilding. It is absolutely rubbish. Was it to allow a fair and transparent scheme to give councils 300,000 applications without a brick being laid? I flexibility to set appropriate fees that might reflect know that the noble Lord did not say that, but we read local circumstances? this rubbish all over the place. I do not see why we Permitted development rights in general are being cannot look at full cost recovery and at how it is not extended, the latest being, as the Minister said, in May the planning regime, the council or the planning this year, despite some serious opposition from committees holding up housebuilding. GC 5 Town and Country Planning Regs. 2019[15 JULY 2019] Environment (EU Exit) Regs. 2019 GC 6

Having said that, I have no objection at all to the I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for his regulations. I am very happy to approve them and I support. I agree that it is important that we get this look forward to the noble Lord’s response to the few right and fund planning departments appropriately; points that I and the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, they should be funded by planning applications fees, have raised. not cross-subsidy, unless that is what councils want, perhaps in addition to putting in extra staff. That remains a possibility but, in principle, we expect the Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, I thank the fees to pay for planning departments. I anticipate that noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, and the noble Lord, the accelerated planning Green Paper, which will be Lord Kennedy, for their contributions on the issue of out later this year, will look at that issue. planning fees. I seek to deal with their points in the order they were raised. Once again, I would be grateful to the noble Baroness and the noble Lord if they would allow me to pick up I thank the noble Baroness for her general welcome on their points of detail in correspondence. of the 20% increase, which has certainly made a difference to the running of planning departments up and down Motion agreed. the country. She rightly referred to the use of prior approval for larger,single-storey,rear-of-house extensions. In the two years up to March 2019 there were just over Environment (Legislative Functions from 52,900 prior approval applications for such extensions Directives) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 of which 81% proceeded. That indicates the importance Considered in Grand Committee of the £96 cost. Both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord asked 3.49 pm how that cost was arrived at. I referred to the fact that Moved by Lord Gardiner of Kimble some applications already attracted it. I will not go through the whole list as it is quite long, but I will give That the Grand Committee do consider the a sample and ensure that I send the full list to the Environment (Legislative Functions from Directives) noble Baroness and the noble Lord. Here are some (EU Exit) Regulations 2019. examples: the erection of an agricultural building; the method of demolition of a building; development consisting of the erection or construction of a click- TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department and-collect facility within the curtilage of a shop; the for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner temporary use of buildings or land and the associated of Kimble) (Con): My Lords, this statutory instrument temporary structures for the purpose of commercial transfers a series of limited, technical legislative functions filmmaking; the installation, alteration or replacement thatarecurrentlyconferredbyEUenvironmentaldirectives of solar photovoltaic equipment on the roofs of non- upon the EU Commission so that after exit day they domestic buildings; the change in use of buildings or can be exercised by the Secretary of State or the land from offices in class B1(a)—the list goes on. I devolved Administrations. The regulations relate to a accept that the question of how the figure of £96 was number of environmental policy areas: air quality, arrived at remains but I hope that the fact that it is the environmentalnoise,infrastructureforspatialinformation, consistent amount charged for so many different marine, and water quality. applications is helpful for the noble Baroness and the The powers relate to minor elements of the relevant noble Lord. I will ensure that it is assessed. directives. They do not allow for a general change in their implementation. One example of the type The noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, asked about of functions being transferred is the power that the the quality of developments. As I indicated, permitted Commission currently has under the directive on development rights are delivering additional, much-needed environmental noise. This is a power to adopt directly new homes. Of course, all homes are required to meet applicable tertiary legislation to amend assessment building regulations right across the board, including methods for noise indicators in the light of scientific in respect of fire safety. We expect all homes to be of and technical progress. Under this instrument, the good quality, but we are aware of concerns raised Secretary of State and the devolved Administrations about certain developments. That is why we announced will be able to update the corresponding domestic in the Spring Statement that we will review permitted legislation to reflect the latest scientific and technical development rights for the conversion of buildings to noise assessment methods. residential use in respect of the quality standards for While this instrument covers a number of directives homes delivered. I think that the noble Baroness made and policy areas, it does no more than replicate the that point relating to Article 4, but I will pick up on it provisions in the directives so that UK authorities can in more detail in a letter; I thank her for what she said. exercise the powers member states considered were The noble Baroness and the noble Lord both raised appropriate to delegate to the Commission. These the issue of additional fees. The accelerated planning powers will ensure that our domestic legislation continues Green Paper will be issued later this year and will look to function properly. They are limited in nature and at some of the issues that were touched on. For are not the kind of functions for which we would example, it could cover the point made quite fairly by generally in the domestic context require primary the noble Lord about a pilot for full cost recovery, legislation. They concern technical detail that would although let us wait to see to what extent; there will normally be dealt with by secondary legislation. If we certainly be an opportunity to look at that matter. had to use primary legislation to make the types of GC 7 Environment (EU Exit) Regs. 2019[LORDS] Environment (EU Exit) Regs. 2019 GC 8

[LORD GARDINER OF KIMBLE] information refers to specific locations and much changes that will be possible under this instrument, it environmental information falls into this category. would take a disproportionate amount of parliamentary Regulation 18 provides that the Secretary of State is time and make it increasingly difficult for the law to the appropriate authority for England, Wales and keep pace with scientific and technical change. The Northern Ireland because INSPIRE is devolved only powers will be subject to parliamentary scrutiny by to Scotland, where Scottish Ministers are the appropriate way of the negative resolution procedure, which, for authority. The Secretary of State may also legislate for the reasons I have just mentioned, I believe is suitable Scotland if Scottish Ministers consent. due to the limited technical nature of the powers. The functions in Regulations 19 to 22 include powers Part 2—Regulations 3 to 15—confers functions to make provision relating to metadata for spatial data relating to five EU directives relating to air quality. sets and services, and interoperability and harmonisation These are the directives on emissions of volatile organic of spatial data sets and services. These are the technical compounds—known as VOCs—ambient air quality details of the INSPIRE framework, which the and cleaner air,industrial emissions, medium combustion Commission was given power to set out in decisions, plants, and national emissions of certain atmospheric rather than in the directive itself. pollutants. These functions include, for example, a Part 5 deals with marine strategy. Regulation 23 power to specify a common format of monitoring transfers functions contained in the EU marine strategy data for VOCs, and to specify rules for determining framework directive, which aims to protect the marine start-up and shut-down periods for the purpose of environment. Part 5 contains powers to lay down certain plants covered by the industrial emissions directive. specifications and standardised methods to monitor The powers in Part 2 that relate to VOCs and and assess the marine environment, to reflect scientific national emissions of certain atmospheric pollutants and technical progress; to specify indicative lists of are conferred on the Secretary of State. VOCs are a characteristics, pressures and impacts relevant to marine reserved matter. Powers relating to national emissions waters, of, of certain atmospheric pollutants, on the other hand, “characteristics to be taken into account for setting environmental are devolved, but in this specific case the devolved targets”, Administrations have already agreed to their being and of “requirements for monitoring programmes”; transferred to the Secretary of State alone to exercise and to specify standardised methods for the application on behalf of the whole UK, because they concern of, national, UK-wide obligations.In each case, the Secretary of State can act only after the devolved Administrations “qualitative descriptors for determining good environmental status”, give their consent, and the Secretary of State must of, characteristics, pressures and impacts relevant to also have regard to requests from devolved marine waters, of Administrations to make regulations. “characteristics to be taken into account for setting environmental For all other devolved matters in Part 2, powers targets”, are conferred on the “appropriate authority”. The and of “monitoring programmes”. “appropriate authority” is defined for this part by Despite covering a mixture of reserved and devolved Regulation 4 and means for England, the Secretary of matters, the devolved Administrations have already State; for Wales, the Welsh Ministers; for Scotland, the agreed that these functions will be conferred on the Scottish Ministers; and for Northern Ireland the Secretary of State alone to exercise for the whole of Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural the marine strategy area, as defined in Regulation 3 of Affairs. the Marine Strategy Regulations. This includes the Regulation 14 provides that it is possible for the UK territorial seas, including coastal waters, offshore Secretary of State to make regulations on behalf of waters out to the limits of the UK’s renewable energy one or more devolved Administrations, but only with zone and the sea bed in areas of the UK continental their agreement. This allows for a common approach shelf beyond the renewable energy zone. and legislation across the UK, providing more certainty As with national emissions of certain atmospheric for industry and other stakeholders. Regulation 15 pollutants in Part 2, before making regulations under provides that the appropriate authority may make this part relating to Wales, Scotland and Northern regulations under Part 2 only after consulting anyone Ireland, or relating to devolved functions, the Secretary whose interests appear likely to be substantially affected of State must obtain the consent of relevant devolved and any other appropriate persons. Administrations. The Secretary of State must also In Part 3 on environmental noise, Regulation 16 consult interested parties including, where appropriate, transfers limited functions relating only to supplementary the Ospar Commission and other international noise indicators and assessment methods for noise organisations to which we will retain obligations after indicators, which are contained in the EU environmental we leave the EU. The Secretary of State must publish a noise directive. This directive aims to avoid, prevent or report on his decision following a consultation. This reduce the harmful effects of exposure to noise pollution. mirrors the existing approach to consultation relating These functions are conferred on the appropriate authority, to the UK’s marine strategy, which is set out in the defined in the same way as for Part 2. regulations. Part 4 relates to infrastructure of spatial information. Part 6 covers water quality. Regulations 24 to 46 Regulations 17 to 22 confer functions under the EU confer functions contained in eight EU water directives. directive, establishing an infrastructure for spatial These directives relate to protection of waters in general— information, known as the INSPIRE directive. Spatial the water framework directive—and the groundwater GC 9 Environment (EU Exit) Regs. 2019[15 JULY 2019] Environment (EU Exit) Regs. 2019 GC 10 environmental quality standards, bathing water,drinking scientific and technical knowledge, does that mean water, urban wastewater treatment, nitrates and sewage that the Minister can simply change the regulations sludge directives. The functions include powers to set that do not have that provision on a whim rather than out technical specifications for economic analysis and according to science? I am sure that is not what is water-quality monitoring; to specify the procedures intended but one might read that into the regulations. for establishing groundwater threshold values, assessing Of course, the regulations do not define appropriate groundwater chemical status and identifying upward change as a result of scientific and technical knowledge. trends in groundwater pollutants; to specify the symbols If the environment is to be safeguarded, I believe that to be used for information on bathing water prohibition that has to be not just clarified but interpreted as and for making provision about the handling of bathing requiring that powers can be exercised only where the water samples; and to specify reference methods for new provisions ensure an equivalent or higher level of measuring nitrate levels in water. environmental protection. That needs to be reflected The functions are clearly defined and are exercisable in the wording of the statutory instrument. There in most cases only to adapt the legislation to scientific is another flourish of inconsistency that is useful: and technical progress. They are conferred in each case Regulation 45(2) on the sewage sludge regulation—we on the appropriate authority, defined by Regulation 25 get all the good jobs in this House—has a useful in the same way as for Part 2. Regulation 25 also additional level of protection, which might be made to provides for the Secretary of State to legislate for refer to all the regulations in this statutory instrument. devolved Administrations with their consent. Perhaps I may also ask the Minister about the relationship between this set of regulations, with its 4 pm scientific and technical knowledge requirement, and Before making any regulations under this part, some of the requirements about advances in scientific Regulation 46 provides that the appropriate authority and technical knowledge that are already included in must consult the appropriate agency—the Environment the directives. For example, under the industrial emissions Agency,Natural Resources Wales, SEPAor the Northern directive there is BAT, which means best available Ireland Environment Agency as appropriate—and any technique; and under the urban wastewater treatment other persons that the appropriate authority considers directive, there is BATNEEC, which means best available appropriate. technique not entailing excessive costs. Those are The provisions in this instrument ensure that UK useful ratchet mechanisms, because they go in only law can keep pace with developments after exit. They one direction—the direction of improvement. However, make no changes to substantive policy content or in the regulations do not mention how BATand BATNEEC regulatory impact. Tothe extent that they affect devolved will be dealt with under those two directives. matters, the devolved Administrations have, where Of course, all the forthcoming changes will be appropriate, given their consent to both the policy and subject to negative scrutiny. It is not a question of the wording of the regulations. With that introduction, more scrutiny taking disproportionate time, but it is which was rather lengthy but, I hope, helpful as to the inadequate to say that they will go through on the range of the SI, I beg to move. negative procedure because that does not give adequate credence to their importance. There is always a risk of Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab): My Lords, I weakening existing environmental protection by cock-up declare a very old interest as a former chief executive rather than conspiracy, if the Committee will pardon of the Environment Agency and as former chairman that technical term. I vividly remember the day when of English Nature. the Government announced that there were one-third I am very concerned about this set of regulations. fewer breaches of the air quality directive in London, The Minister described them as limited but I do not before we quietly pointed out to them behind the think that they are. The Secretary of State is being scenes that that was because the budget had been cut given rather broad powers to make amendments by and there were one-third fewer monitoring stations, regulation to a wide range of significant legislation, especially in areas of high pollution, so inevitably which has really important impacts for the environment. there were one-third fewer exceedances. Even with the That is made worse by the fact that these regulations best of intentions, there needs to be a higher level of have the appearance of having been prepared by different scrutiny to make sure that there is no inadvertent, even civil servants and glued together at the last minute, if not deliberate, weakening of existing environmental because they are rather a mess of inconsistency. protection. For example, some powers are limited to the extent There is also inconsistency in the duty to consult. that the competent authority can make changes only, For example, some of the regulations talk about “if appropriate to do so as a result of scientific and technical consulting, as the Minister mentioned, but there is progress”. a very good consultative body—the UK technical However, that requirement does not apply to all the advisory group—for the water framework directive, powers—for example, it does not apply to the air-quality the groundwater directive and the priority substances regulation or the regulation applying to medium directive, yet no mention of those directives needing combustion plants. It would be interesting to know consultation despite the standard and regular consultation why the Minister is happy—if indeed he is—with this process that already goes on with it. range of inconsistency. I will come on to talk more At the end of the day, there is the vexed question of about inconsistencies in other areas. With regard to compliance. You could say that it is Parliament’s job making changes only as a result of the advance of to scrutinise secondary legislation and make sure that GC 11 Environment (EU Exit) Regs. 2019[LORDS] Environment (EU Exit) Regs. 2019 GC 12

[BARONESS YOUNG OF OLD SCONE] parliamentarians and bring us a degree of comfort if it is okay, but the reality is that we will have a new we knew that all the changes had been subjected to environmental regulator. Prior due diligence on the scrutiny by all the relevant bodies. sorts of changes that would go through in secondary legislation is not currently in that regulator’s role, and it ought to be. Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab): My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for introducing the SI and Baroness Parminter (LD): My Lords, our Benches for the helpful briefing that he arranged beforehand. certainly accept that, if we are to leave the European As he explained, this is another of the many SIs Union, the Secretary of State or the devolved authorities that we have considered to transfer legislative functions need these powers to ensure that the legislation, such from the EU and the European Commission to as it is, does not remain static but moves forward in the the UK. In this case, the functions are transferred light of scientific knowledge and understanding. The overwhelmingly to the Secretary of State and devolved number of areas that we are talking about in Ministers. We have debated the limitations of this environmental legislation is reflected in this jumbo process many times before; I do not intend to go into statutory instrument, so we also accept that the only all the arguments again but there is an undoubted way to provide them is probably through the secondary democratic deficit in transferring powers from a complex legislation route, given the chances of us being able to European process, with all its checks and balances, to get primary legislation slots for all the changes that one person, however well intentioned that person may be. might be necessary. With that in mind, I want to raise some issues and However, following what the noble Baroness, Lady ask some questions. First, the department’s written Young of Old Scone, said, we are disappointed that response to stakeholders on the issue of environmental the opportunity has not been taken in this jumbo SI to law governance drew attention to the proposals for the ensure maximum protection for the environment. That office for environmental protection contained in the is particularly so when we are having these discussions draft Environment (Principles and Governance) Bill, in advance of an environment Bill that sets the framework which is intended to provide continued scrutiny and for future UK legislation outside Europe; and in advance oversight. That Bill, which is not before us yet, now of creating the office for environmental protection, plays a particularly significant role. Because of where which, in addition to statutory authorities such as the we are politically, the withdrawal Bill, which we spent environment agencies, will be able to hold people to many happy hours arguing over and which had a large account. number of environmental protections built into it, will not be taken forward; we seem to be losing it. All we In a slightly different way, I want to pick up a point have now to underpin environment guarantees is the that the noble Baroness made about changes being office for environmental protection, which does not made only in response to scientific and technical advances. exist yet. What role will that body play in scrutinising In some areas—she alluded to one, and I have another the sort of regulations that are before us today and the on water quality—the regulations pin down how the Secretary of State’s powers in them? For example, is it Secretary of State or devolved authorities can use envisaged that the OEP will collect data and monitor these powers. Regulation 32(3) alludes to the fact that the effectiveness of the regulations? That includes the devolved authorities can use the powers on water points of detail; as the Minister said, this is about quality by looking to scientific evidence only where annexes and so on. Will its role go into that sort of there will be possible harm to the aquatic environment. detail? Will it also be responsible for scrutinising the So, this instrument contains provisions on how the Secretary of State’s performance and delivery in carrying devolved authorities or the Secretary of State can use out the functions that we are about to give him or her? those powers to protect the environment. If it is good Can the Minister clarify what role this new body enough in the case of water quality to limit the powers will play and whether it will have that oversight? While that the Secretary of State can use in response to we are on the subject, can he also bring us up to date scientific and technical changes—and to do so only to about when we will see the OEP? It seems the timetable advance environmental protection—why is that not is slipping, yet an awful lot is riding on the future of the case in all areas? The phrase about it being in that organisation. It would be helpful if he could response to scientific and technical changes does not update us on that because, once that body is in place have a rider; it says that it ensures the equivalent or a and we have had the assurances about what we hope higher level of protection for the environment. I think will be its all-embracing role, some of these other we are both making the same point. issues will fall into place and we will not be so anxious The noble Baroness, Lady Young, also mentioned about them. consultation but I want to pick up on a slightly different point. Given the nature of these changes, it is critical that all relevant stakeholders are consulted. However, 4.15 pm there is an omission on the issue of environmental Secondly, the Minister will be aware that the Green noise, which the statutory instrument covers. In his Alliance has raised concerns that these functions could summing up, can the Minister say specifically why be exercised with no regulatory oversight and little environmental noise does not merit consultation? He legislative scrutiny owing to the use of the negative referred to it in general terms but not specifically. Of procedure. My noble friend Lady Youngand the noble course, we can change negative statutory instruments Baroness, Lady Parminter, made this point. The to affirmative ones, but it would reassure us department’s answer is that these powers would amend GC 13 Environment (EU Exit) Regs. 2019[15 JULY 2019] Environment (EU Exit) Regs. 2019 GC 14 the “non-essential elements” of the directives but, as latest scientific evidence, so, as drafted, not all the my noble friend pointed out, we are dealing with not powers are limited as a result of a link to that forward- just non-essential issues; they are not just minor or looking analysis of the available scientific data. limited, as the Minister chose to try to present them. The Minister made reference to sharing expertise For example, a recent ruling by the European Court of and scientific information across the EU and with Justice on an issue of air quality monitoring ruled that wider international bodies with regard to the marine failure to implement the requirements of the annexes—we parts of this SI. However, there does not seem to be a are largely dealing with annexes here—hampered the more general catch-all that we should continue to achievement of the fundamental objective to protect share that expert scientific advice across the EU and human health. The annexes are often just as important wider with international bodies, nor does there seem as the main body of the regulations. They are not just to be a requirement to consult those setting international “non-essential” provisions. I would be pleased if the standards as a prerequisite across all the aspects of Minister could explain in a little more detail why there this SI. Similarly, as my noble friend Lady Young is blanket reliance on the negative procedure when it pointed out, there is no requirement to consult the might not always be appropriate. UK technical advisory group, which sets environmental Thirdly, as my noble friend Lady Young said, there standards for the water framework directive. appear to be inconsistencies relating to the requirement In these circumstances, does the Minister accept to consult. She very articulately pointed out all the that there is scope for regressive changes, whether differences and different levels of consultation in the intentionally or accidentally? That is at the heart of different regulations. For example, I understand that our concerns here. Does he therefore accept that there Regulation 15 stipulates that before making any should be an explicit overarching commitment in these regulations under Part 2, the Secretary of State must regulations that they will be applied only to achieve an consult, equivalent or higher level of environmental protection? “bodies or persons … representative of the interests likely to be If that phrase was included in the SI, we would all take substantially affected by the regulations”. a great deal of comfort from it. I am sure that is not That is one form of wording, but this requirement to the Minister’s intention, but we may not all be here in consult does not apply equally to all the new powers the future, so it would be good to have these sorts of set out in the SI. Can the Minister clarify why it is not guarantees in writing or in whichever way he can make a prerequisite to any exercise of power established by a commitment on that. this SI that there should be prior consultation? There We need to make sure that, whatever happens with are two sorts of consultation: consultation of the these SIs, and however the Secretary of State exercises people who have a particular interest, such as businesses his powers in the future, it will be only to deliver a and those required to carry out or uphold some of higher level of environmental protection. I hope the these regulations, but also public consultations. The Minister will be able to give that guarantee today and I public have a great deal of interest in some of these look forward to his response. environmental issues. I would be pleased if the Minister could clarify why there is not a more widespread requirement to hold public consultations for some of Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My Lords, I am most these proposed changes. grateful to the noble Baronesses for their comments Fourthly, stakeholders, and the noble Baronesses on these regulations. I repeat that they create powers who spoke, have raised concerns about the “scientific that will enable us to adapt our environmental legislation and technical progress” stipulation. We all agree with to reflect scientific and technical developments. We it in principle, but the wording in the SI is ambiguous. believe that they do this in a practical and proportionate For example, paragraph 7.1 of the Explanatory way that provides for greater public consultation and Memorandum refers to updates to the SI being made, parliamentary scrutiny than now occurs in the manner in which the Commission exercises the powers. I therefore “usually as a result of scientific and technical progress”. say, in great friendship, to the noble Baroness, Lady Clearly other factors will be taken into account. Can Young of Old Scone, that whatever our views on the the Minister advise how such a requirement should be matter, we should all be pleased that in this area and in interpreted? Should there not be a more explicit this particular place we will enable, with consultation requirement to defer to the latest science throughout and scrutiny—I will elaborate on that—something the regulations? Should there not also be a greater that is not currently available to us. Candidly, that is clarification of what the latest scientific and technical because, as regards the decisions that the Commission knowledge actually means, including, for example, a is taking, member states took the view, practically and requirement that it is provided from an independent, proportionally, that these matters did not require the respected source? sort of approach that the noble Baronesses are perhaps What safeguards are in place to ensure that changes suggesting would have been more desirable. made by the Minister using these powers do not None of this work this afternoon is about a regression. weaken rather than strengthen existing environmental I put it on record that it is not. I do not want the noble protection? For example, the majority of the regulations Baroness to be worried because this work is designed in Part 6 of the SI establish scope for the Secretary of so that she is not. The whole purpose of this instrument State to make potentially wide-ranging alterations to is that it does not of itself change substantive policy, the standards, monitoring and measures set out in which is about having rigour on the environment. It various water directives. However, they do not make it does not change operational delivery, which we all clear that that will be done only on the basis of the want. It does not impose additional costs on individuals, GC 15 Environment (EU Exit) Regs. 2019[LORDS] Environment (EU Exit) Regs. 2019 GC 16

[LORD GARDINER OF KIMBLE] the negative resolution procedure. We consider this public organisations or businesses. It is not intended approach proportionate with the powers that this to result in additional environmental impacts compared instrument transfers. with the way in which the legislation previously operated. The real point is that we have been desperately keen As I say, it is all about keeping within the rigour of not to be in a position where we would cause what there was before while providing us with a further environmental legislation to ossify; I think that everyone opportunity. would agree with that. When we are furnished with I should say straightaway that I have a note here on ways in which we can, through technical changes, the office for environmental protection, to which the enhance the environment and do things better, we noble Baronesses, Lady Youngof Old Scone and Lady clearly need to attend to those changes—and do so Jones of Whitchurch, referred. We are planning for pretty smartish. Negative statutory instruments go the office for environmental protection to be operational through the JCSI and the SLSC for scrutiny; of course, by 1 January 2021. It will be an independent statutory if alarm bells ring or there is an issue, parliamentarians organisation, established by the environment Bill, to have ways of drawing matters to Parliament’s attention. provide environmental scrutiny and advice, respond to I do not see demons in this but one did appear under complaints and take enforcement action. If necessary, some future arrangements. There are all sorts of ways we are ready with interim arrangements—all those are in which tenacious Members of both Houses would in place—which will provide an initial assessment of deal with this. complaints, scrutiny of the 25-year environment plan and ad hoc advice until the OEP is established. 4.30 pm The environment Bill plots a course to establish a The noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, pioneering new system of green governance, improve referred to the sewage sludge directive. The powers are air quality, restore and enhance nature, improve waste transferred in the way they are expressed in the EU management and resource efficiency,and improve surface directives in which they originate, which vary. The water, groundwater and wastewater management. A sewage sludge directive is an old one. This explains the full list of the remits is still to be finalised but that was variation in the SI. Despite this variation, all powers a taster of what is a work of great ambition. The Bill are intended for scientific and technical purposes. will be introduced in the second Session; I am afraid Again, I emphasise that we have sought to bring in that noble Lords will not find me saying when that how the Commission deals with these matters and might be. There might be quite a lot of noble Lords in how they are described. I agree, perhaps, that if one the same position, so I cannot say any more about had taken it somewhat differently then it might have when. However, it is important work and, whoever is been different. So that no one thought that this a ruse looking after these matters, it will be a very interesting for—how do I describe it?—an expansionist way forward time for scrutiny in your Lordships’ House. by anyone, we thought it was more sensible to take I was quite rightly pressed on scientific and technical these matters precisely as they were and in the way progress. The Explanatory Memorandum for this that the Commission dealt with them. The noble Baroness instrument explains that the powers will usually be also referred to the UKTAG consultation—the UK used as a result of scientific and technical progress. technical advisory group. It is not a statutory body. It This is because, in some cases—for example, in relation consists of the EA, SEPA, NRW and the Northern to monitoring and reporting standards—changes might Ireland Environment Agency. They are established be necessary for other reasons, such as having better technical experts and the consultation requirement in regulatory measures. We also seek to replicate the Regulation 46 covers this. provisions in directives, which take different approaches All the noble Baronesses referred to the lack of as the EU has considered it appropriate. Where the consistency in consultation. Weseek to be proportionate. Commission’s power can be used only to reflect scientific Where there is no explicit consultation requirement, and technical progress, we have carried over that this does not mean that no consultation will take restriction. Pressure for changes as a result of scientific place, rather that it will ape normal government principles and technical progress most frequently occurs, I about public consultation. An authority wishing to understand, on a bottom-up basis: that is, it comes make consultations will need to consult where appropriate. from the scientific and technical community, or the This might involve a public consultation or a more business community. In other words, it tends to come targeted consultation of expert or other stakeholder from the very experts who government would need to groups. consult before making legislation. More generally, and The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, mentioned where appropriate, we would normally consult experts the environmental noise issue. The powers in this before making regulations on such technical matters. area relate to detailed technical matters. It would be All of your Lordships referred to the exercise of disproportionate to require consultation every time—I powers by negative statutory instruments. As I have underline that—the powers are exercised, but in other tried to explain, these powers essentially relate to cases it would clearly be appropriate to include explicit technical matters that EU member states have considered consultation requirements. it appropriate to delegate to the Commission. These The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, are the kinds of matters of detail for which, in domestic mentioned non-essential elements. The heading of contexts, we would normally use secondary legislation—I Regulation 7 relates to this. At first sight, the meaning think that the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, alluded of this may appear less than completely clear. This to this at the beginning of her remarks—and, generally, term is taken is taken from the directive on ambient air GC 17 Environment (EU Exit) Regs. 2019[15 JULY 2019] Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amdt) Order GC 18 quality. It is sometimes used in directives to describe enhancing the environment, having an office for the aspects that the Commission is given power to environmental protection and holding public authority specify or amend. It is only in this regulation that this to account for everyone. term is used and only in relation to that directive. The Indeed, it is vital that we work collaboratively. powers extend no further than those already exercised None of these matters—the environment, invasive by the Commission. The terminology has been followed species, and animal and plant health—respects borders. simply to be consistent with the directive. That takes We must all work collaboratively, whether on air quality, us back to why the wording is as it is. water quality or marine litter. One may not believe it but quite a lot of the rest of the world believes that we The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, referred to lead on such matters; that is very good because it Regulation 32, which relates to the watch-list of substances shows that we have outstanding scientific experts, in water policy. Substances are placed on this list for a both in government and in opposition, working on period, during which they are subject to monitoring them and pushing for environmental enhancement. by member states to establish their level of environmental risk to the aquatic environment and to see whether Motion agreed. further regulations should be put in place by the EU. If it establishes from the data gathered by member states that a substance is dangerous for the aquatic Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) environment, the Commission is likely to propose that Order 2019 it should be added to the list of priority substances Considered in Grand Committee under the water framework directive which member states must ensure do not exceed certain thresholds in 4.39 pm water bodies. Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford The UK will continue to operate its own watch-list That the Grand Committee do consider the Misuse after exit to enable future policy decisions about priority of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) Order 2019. substances for water. Regulation 32 contains a power Relevant document: 53rd Report from the Secondary to enable the watch-list to be changed from time to Legislation Scrutiny Committee time. The wording seeks to reflect the watch-list’s purpose and the text in the directive by allowing that a The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams substance should be added—I underline that—to the of Trafford) (Con): My Lords, this draft order differs list only if there is good evidence to suggest that it may from recent amendments to the Misuse of Drugs Act present a risk to the aquatic environment. This is 1971 in that it is based on changes to scientific and because of the potential economic impact of listing, technical detail in existing legislation and does not which will require the environmental agencies to monitor introduce further controls on compounds under the and collect data on each substance, and to ensure that 1971 Act. I thank the Advisory Council on the Misuse it is done on the basis of scientific evidence. Technical of Drugs—the ACMD—for its expert advice on this experts, including the UK technical advisory group, technical matter, which has informed the draft order will analyse the data and advise Ministers when sufficient before the Committee. evidence has been gathered; that will allow Ministers The order was first laid before Parliament on 4 June. to decide whether it is sensible to remove a substance Its purpose is to amend Schedule 2 to the Misuse of from the list or, if appropriate, to decide how to Drugs Act by reducing the scope of the generic definition protect the water environment from that substance in of the third generation of synthetic cannabinoids. I future. assure noble Lords that this amendment does not I will have a further look at some of the points repeal the generic definition of synthetic cannabinoids made but I say to the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones of under the Act, and compounds commonly known as Whitchurch, Lady Parminter and Lady Young of Old Spice and Mamba will continue to be subject to controls Scone, that we all wish to enhance the environment under that legislation. The measure is brought forward through these arrangements. The purpose of bringing as a result of the recommendation from the ACMD these matters forward is not to be regressive but to published on 22 December 2017. playan important part in enabling us to take proportionate It may be helpful if I explain to the Committee the decisions that we believe will help us to enhance the history of the control of synthetic cannabinoids under environment. That is the very basis on which we work. the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, as it helps to frame the I do not know whether I can reassure the noble context of this amendment. The ACMD, the independent Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, but she should experts who provide advice to the Government on the not be worried about this piece of work because the misuse and harms of drugs, first published guidance direction of travel is positive. I can see nothing regressive in 2014 on the third generation of synthetic cannabinoids. in the instrument. Obviously, no one can bind their This is a group of compounds that mimic the effects of successors but we are bringing environmental law on cannabis and are commonly referred to by brand to the statute book, and we will take advantage of names such as Spice and Mamba. The ACMD technical and scientific advances so that the statute recommended that synthetic cannabinoids should be book does not ossify but develops for the betterment captured under a generic definition— as class B drugs of all. One may be worried about certain things but under the Misuse of Drugs Act—due to their associated the noble Baronesses should feel that this piece of harms and widespread availability, and it followed the work can command their consent; it is a practical and control of the first generation of synthetic cannabinoids sensible way forward for us on our journey towards in 2009 and the second generation in 2013. GC 19 Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amdt) Order[LORDS] Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amdt) Order GC 20

[BARONESS WILLIAMS OF TRAFFORD] cannabinoids. Between 40,000 and 90,000 compounds The ACMD advice also recommended that these captured by this wide definition were not synthetic compounds be placed under Schedule 1 to the Misuse cannabinoids and therefore were not intended to be of Drugs Regulations 2001, as it could not determine controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. In any known medicinal or therapeutic benefits from addition, it inhibited research by requiring researchers these drugs. Any drugs listed under Schedule 1 are to obtain a Schedule 1 licence. deemed to have little or no known medicinal or therapeutic That highlights a series of issues with the Government’s benefits and can be legally accessed only with a Home approach to drug misuse. First, the ill-thought-through Office licence, which is generally issued for research or Psychoactive Substances Act, while making previously industrial purposes. so-called legal highs illegal, did not make the possession Shortly after these changes came into effect on of such substances an offence—only their manufacture, 14 December 2016, representatives from the research sale and supply, even though some of the substances community contacted the Home Office and the ACMD, are more dangerous than the substances controlled informing them that a large number of research under the Misuse of Drugs Act that they were designed compounds not suspected as being synthetic cannabinoids to replace. were inadvertently captured under the generic definition. Secondly, as a result, the ACMD still has to play As a result of the controls placed on these compounds, catch-up with synthetic alternatives to controlled drugs, institutions had to obtain Schedule 1 licences to conduct such as synthetic cannabinoids, which need to be certain aspects of their research. The licensing process controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act because ensures that there is a minimised risk of misuse and they are so dangerous. To get ahead of the game, on diversion of, and harm from, controlled drugs. However, the basis of what the Minister said and what is contained the Government have no desire to unnecessarily impose in the material published by the Home Office on the licensing requirements where compounds do not pose SI, the ACMD appears to have gone to the other risks of harm. Accordingly, it is important that we extreme and banned swathes of innocuous substances. amend the generic definition to remove a regulatory Thirdly, these synthetic alternatives to controlled burden on the research industry relating to compounds drugs were created only because the controlled drugs that were never intended to be controlled. On that that they were designed to replace were illegal. For basis, the ACMD recommended in December 2017 example, I know a doctor who has had to deal with a that the scope of the generic definition be reduced. number of patients with serious psychiatric problems The order amends the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 to caused by these synthetic alternatives; they took the reduce the breadth of compounds controlled as third- synthetic alternatives because they were legal at the generation synthetic cannabinoids.The ACMD’samended time, but they would not have had psychiatric problems definition will ensure that compounds which have if they had stuck to the controlled drugs that the been found to cause harm will continue to be caught synthetic alternatives were designed to replace. My by the generic definition. I assure the Committee that understanding is that the synthetic cannabinoid Spice, the Government are acutely aware of the continued which the Minister mentioned, induces far more psychosis harms posed by the third generation of synthetic and is far more addictive than even the strongest form cannabinoids, and I want to make it clear that the of cannabis, for example. Can the Minister confirm order does not revoke the generic definition. Harmful that? synthetic cannabinoids such as Spice and Mamba will Fourthly, this sort of mistake further undermines continue to be controlled through the generic definition. the credibility of the system of controlled drugs under the Misuse of Drugs Act. Drugs are being classified The order, if accepted and made, will come into primarily on the basis of politics rather than scientific force on 15 November. To complement it, a further evidence. For example, the previous Labour Government statutory instrument will be introduced to make parallel downgraded cannabis from class B to class C on the amendments to the generic definition under Schedule basis of scientific evidence only for the same Labour 1 to the Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2001 and in the Government, under a new Prime Minister, to reclassify Misuse of Drugs (Designation) (England, Wales and it back to class B for political reasons. Some drugs, Scotland) Order 2015. As a result, the compounds such as GHB or GBL, that cause a large number of currently captured unintentionally will no longer require deaths—particularly among gay men, including a former a Home Office licence for the conduct of research as partner of mine—are in class C while MDMA or they will no longer be controlled. ecstasy, which cause far fewer deaths, are in class A. We do not oppose the correction of this mistake by I hope that I have made the case to amend the means of this SI but we clearly state it again: drug generic definition of the third generation of synthetic misuse should be treated as a health issue, not a cannabinoids to remove the compounds that were criminal justice issue; all the efforts of government unintentionally controlled from the generic definition. and law enforcement should be focused on harm I commend the order to the Committee. reduction, not criminalisation; and the Government need to expand their review of drug misuse to include Lord Paddick (LD): My Lords, I thank the Minister lawchanges,including potentially legalising and regulating for explaining the draft statutory instrument. controlled drugs. It is regrettable that, in 2016, the Advisory Council on The Liberal Democrats are not the only ones saying the Misuse of Drugs advised the Government to include this. Last week, a survey showed that twice as many such a wide definition of third generation synthetic people were in favour of the legalisation of cannabis GC 21 Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amdt) Order[15 JULY 2019] Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amdt) Order GC 22 than against it. Research published last week showed having to continue, where necessary,to apply for Schedule that fewer teenagers used cannabis when it was legalised 1 licences? How cumbersome, time-consuming and in the United States. The debate on drug misuse is time-delaying is the process of applying for Schedule 1 changing. We believe that it is time that the Government licences, the need for which this order is designed to paid attention to that. reduce but apparently not eliminate, in respect of compounds “unintentionally captured” by the 2016 changes? Bearing in mind that the ACMD made its Lord Rosser (Lab): My Lords, I too thank the recommendation, which led to the Government making Minister for her explanation of the content and purpose this draft order some 18 months ago, why has it taken of the draft order, which we do not oppose. It amends as long as it has to reach this stage? the Misuse of Drugs Act by narrowing the previous The ACMD’s 2014 recommendations did not come definition of synthetic cannabinoids, as the previous into effect until mid-December 2016. Again, what was definition has had the effect of requiring compounds the reason for the apparent delay of at least two years? that are not of concern to be licensed as class B drugs. If consultation took place during that lengthy period, Following the control of the first generation of did any individuals or organisations raise the problem synthetic cannabinoids in 2009 and of the second about the breadth of the definition that the research generation in 2013, the Advisory Council on the Misuse community raised shortly after mid-December 2016? of Drugs first published advice in 2014 on the third If not, why did the ACMD—or anyone else—not generation of synthetic cannabinoids—a group of realise the problem that this order seeks to address compounds commonly referred to, as the Minister before its recommendations were implemented? Did said, as Spice and Mamba, which mimic the effects of the changes that were brought into effect in mid-December cannabis. The ACMD recommended that these 2016 properly reflect the ACMD’s recommendations compounds be captured by way of a generic definition of two years or more previously? If not, is that one as class B drugs under the Misuse of Drugs Act. It reason why the problem of the breadth of the definition also recommended that the compounds be placed in came to light only after the mid-December 2016 changes Schedule 1 to the Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2001, came into effect? meaning that they can be legally accessed only with a This draft order does not seek to address the issue Home Office licence, which is generally issued for of the use, or rather misuse, of drugs. The UK now research or industrial purposes. has, I believe, the highest recorded level of mortality Following the ACMD’srecommendations, the changes from drug misuse since records began. I hope that we came into effect on 14 December 2016 but, as has will soon hear from the Government the different already been said, shortly after their implementation approaches, based on what would most effectively the ACMD and the Home Office were told by research reduce harm, that they intend to consider and adopt bodies that the breadth of the definition meant that it in response to a drug situation that appears to be captured a large number of research compounds, many getting worse. of which were not synthetic cannabinoids. The effect of this was that research institutions had to obtain Baroness Williams of Trafford: I thank both noble Schedule 1 licences when they should not have needed Lords for their points. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, to do so. made the point that this is regrettable—I agree. It is The ACMD recognised that its advice that led to never a good place to be in, having to amend legislation the 2016 changes had unintended consequences. As a for this reason. He is right that research was taking far result, it made a further recommendation in December longer because of the application process. That is why 2017 to the effect that the scope of the generic definition we have the order today. He also made the point that be reduced. Accordingly, this order amends the generic psychiatric problems would not be as problematic as definition of third-generation synthetic cannabinoids they are with synthetic versions. However,I have thought by replacing the term “univalent” with a defined back to several examples that I am aware of, for number of substituents. This will apparently reduce the example, skunk weed, which has caused psychiatric number of compounds unintentionally captured by problems. He asked whether I could confirm that the generic definition, estimated by industry at more Spice is more addictive than non-synthetic cannabis. It than 40,000 substances, while retaining those that is indeed stronger than some other drugs. That is why have not been found to cause harm. As the Minister it is controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act, in line said, the revised definition does not alter the position with the expert advice. The SI does not change the for class A drugs or the licensed medicines previously control of Spice. excluded. He also made the point that drugs policy should be When this order was discussed in the Commons, aimed at reduction. Of course, reduction of the use of the Minister said, drugs is at the heart of what we are trying to achieve, “so that while those compounds that have been found to cause particularly— harm are captured by it, fewer compounds are unintentionally captured”.—[Official Report, Commons, 3/7/19; col. 1263.] In view of the Commons Minister’s words, how many Lord Paddick: I said the aim of policy should be compounds will still be unintentionally captured by harm reduction, not reduction in use. the amended order that we are discussing now, and what level of inconvenience or difficulty will that Baroness Williams of Trafford: The two probably continue to cause the research community in the go hand in hand—the harm of drugs and the use of pharmaceutical and healthcare sector in respect of them are quite parallel to each other—but I take the GC 23 Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amdt) Order[LORDS] Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amdt) Order GC 24

[BARONESS WILLIAMS OF TRAFFORD] says that it varies from case to case depending on the noble Lord’s point. He made a slightly different point complexity of the activity being licensed, and that and maybe I just took licence because I could respond clear guidance is given on the Home Office website on in the way that I did. He also talked about the legalisation how to make licensing applications. However, there is of cannabis. He knows that the Government do not a broader point: that to get a Schedule 1 licence is intend at this point to legalise cannabis. In fact, the quite a serious matter. statutory instrument is not about the legalisation or otherwise of cannabis but, again, he took the opportunity Lord Rosser: There is one other point—I say this as to bring the issue up. a complete lay man. It is fairly sobering to find that The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked why it has taken the ACMD made a recommendation—I understand so long to get here, given that the recommendation that it consists of people who know what they are was made back in December 2017. The initial talking about—but we were apparently not able to recommendation from the ACMD in December 2017 appreciate that this difficulty would arise, and, because acted as interim advice, covering a range of proposed presumably there was some discussion and consultation, solutions for the Home Office to consider. Officials nobody outside the ACMD realised that it would then liaised with the ACMD on the feasibility of arise. Is it not quite a sobering thought that such a the proposals and the ACMD made short-term mistake could have been made by not only the experienced recommendations amending the generic definition body that is meant to advise on this but by those who and longer-term recommendations. Following those were going to be affected by it? To me, as a lay person, recommendations, from spring 2018 the Home Office that is quite worrying. Are the Government not worried engaged in a targeted consultation with the research that a mistake will be made again in some other community on the proposals, which confirmed at the sphere? end of 2018 that it supported the short-term solution of amending the generic definition. Steps were then Baroness Williams of Trafford: I agree with the taken to make this legislative amendment. The noble Lord that any such amendment that we have to unintentional capture did not come to light until after make based on SIs that we have put before this House, the introduction of the legislative changes in 2016. without the full information before us, is always a After receiving representations from the research concern. However,we are talking about new compounds community, the Home Office and the ACMD then that need research. We are at the forefront of research acted. and controls but that does not take away from the fact The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked how many that the noble Lord is right—it is unfortunate when we compounds will still be unintentionally caught by the have to amend secondary legislation like this. MDA. The nature of a generic definition is such that it is not possible to specify an exact number of compounds. Lord Rosser: I am not quite sure from what the I will write to him with further detail once I have Minister says whether the answer to the point I raised confirmed that point. We are continuing to work with is that the problem could not have been envisaged at the ACMD on longer-term solutions. With that— the time—that it came to light that new substances or compounds suddenly were affected. However, if I am Lord Rosser: I raised another issue. I am not suggesting not right in saying that, did the Government inquire of that we should not pass this order, but how cumbersome the ACMD why it had not realised that this would be a and time-consuming is the process of applying for the difficult? Did they get an explanation from it? Schedule 1 licences? Is it some great bureaucratic procedure or not? Baroness Williams of Trafford: I will have to write to the noble Lord on that, but I thank him for raising that valid point. Baroness Williams of Trafford: I think I made that point in response to the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. It Motion agreed. is quite a procedural undertaking; hence it is good that this SI is before us today. My note from the Box just Committee adjourned at 5.04 pm.