A CONVERSATION WITH BRIAN LAMB by James J. Unger

Several weeks ago I was fortunate enough to have a very lengthy personal discussion with Brian P. Lamb, Chairman and CEO of C-SPAN, here in its Capitol Hill headquarters in Washington. Brian is viewed by educated oberservers as one of the most creative and influential individuals in national news media history. His insights, observations and opinions are all based upon diverse personal experiences as a company founder, program director, creative contributor, program interviewer, chief executive officer, media critic, and communications force. Sharing the discussion with Brian and myself was Harold Pizzetta, Debate Captain at The American University and staff member of the Na- tional Forensics Institute. Harold is currently a member of the Law Journal at the Georgetown University Law School. Jim: Our structure to- television system to deliver of just that minute and a half day is going to take the ad- additional programming and on the evening news show. vice of someone far wiser in also the satellite as a way the profession than I am. So to get there. Harold: Before the 1979 I’ll open with a quote from actual realization, did you Brian Lamb himself. He said- Jim: Robert Titsch has find yourself to be a “voice -you said--in an interview written “Brian was driven by in the wilderness” or did you program, “keep the spotlight a dream. He felt that the get a lot of support right on the guest. Once a host American public was getting away? begins to push and argue and screwed by T.V. He felt that banter, he gets in the way. the most powerful government Brian: There was almost My role is a conduit. If you in the world was hidden from no support in the beginning, think a lot about me, then its constituents and that the and that’s not unusual, I’m doing something wrong. We people should see it.” Was though, with anything new in as interviewers should try to this a dream? Was this a pas- the United States. People in be ourselves but stay out of sion? Can you tell us a little business naturally want to the way.” And that’s what about--how do I want to put continue to control the mar- we’re going to attempt to do. it?--the gestation period-- ketplace that they have at any So the “spotlight” today is how long from one given time--that’s the na- directly on Brian Lamb of C- conceptualization to realiza- ture of the human being. And SPAN. Brian, let me start tion? there was a considerable lack with what I think is a very Brian: Well, it was an of interest on the part of typical question for many of evolutionary experience. Com- journalists at that time to our readers. What do the let- ing from a small town in In- talk about new avenues of com- ters “C-SPAN” stand for? diana, having a certain image munication, new ways of bring- of what it was going to be ing in television. Certainly Brian: Cable Satellite like when I got to Washing- the television networks Public Affairs Network. ton, then finding something weren’t interested in doing different--finding, you know, stories about the new media. Jim: And how did you come a tiny little funnel in ABC, Newspapers didn’t like tele- about that name? Was it some- NBC and CBS that was located vision at all, anyway. They thing that was imposed upon in New York which had three would publish stories, but you? evening newscasts that made they weren’t happy about it. the decisions of what the rest And so it’s like a lot of Brian: No, I sat down in of us could see on televi- things in the United States, the beginning and made a list sion. And I kept hearing all they have to start at the of about 100 possible names. through my experience that grassroots if they’re really This is a town of acronyms this was a rich country with going to change things, be- and in order to get people’s a fabulous communications sys- cause there’s very big resis- attention, I thought you tem and that we were a coun- tance to change whether its needed to both devise some- try that didn’t believe in industry or government. So, thing that would fit in what concentrating too much power this is something that kind people are used to but also in any one area. It’s a little of bubbled up. I was not a create an atmosphere in which more complicated than that but part of a big organization, I they would ask “what does it that’s basically what was at was not a part of any national, stand for?” In the days when work here. Not so much that well-known group. I was a we were starting, no one knew I wanted the people to see single human being in the mix much about cable. They cer- the House of Representatives, that had a germ of an idea, tainly didn’t know how the but I wanted people to have but in order to get to where satellite was going to help the same opportunity that I we are today it took a lot of us. This created an interest had living here--seeing the people in the beginning to in both the use of the cable entire city at work instead help make this happen--if they weren’t there, I couldn’t have they wanted it full-time. We is your balance between--what done it by myself. found our own spot--it was ac- do I want to say?--congres- Harold: To continue the tually the last on the RCA sional and non-congressional reflection on the early days Satellite--which is another coverage? What is worthy of of C-SPAN, as I understand it, story for another day. And C-SPAN coverage? in 1979 it consisted of just we went 16-hours a day and four employees, a 500-square then 24-hours a day and in Brian: Well, the best way foot office building, and you the process of that, lost over to describe what we do is try even shared a satellite with 400 towns. From 1,200 to 800. to let the American people in the Madison Square Garden Net- Another bump in the road came on as much of official public work, sometimes being bumped in 1992, when the Congress Washington and public affairs off for pro wrestling. It passed legislation that around the country as is fi- was obviously not the 24-hour reregulated the cable tele- nancially possible. This is a day, gavel to gavel cover- vision business and at the a complicated process that’s age that we’re now used to. same time hurt us sig- made up of the House and Sen- Can you give us an idea of nificantly, probably more than ate, the Supreme Court, the the level of coverage in 1979? any other channel, because White House, the press, the they forced the industry to lobbyists, the think tanks, Brian: When we started on make room for over-the-air different political clubs, March 19, 1979, all we did television stations for a seg- parties, caucuses. It’s was flip the switch at 10 a.m. ment of the population called never-ending. So, we try to If the House was in, we had a the “area of dominant influ- show you as much of this pro- picture and a sound. If it ence.” This a formula set up cess as is humanly possible. was not, we had nothing. That by the Federal Communications The other aspect of it is our was our first several months. Commission--and those channels own programming that we de- We didn’t start adding new pro- had to be carried on those velop, for instance, the Wash- gramming until we borrowed a cable systems whether anyone ington Journal which is now tape machine. We hired a fel- wanted to watch them or not, on every day. It’s the only low who was in the basement just because they were licensed place where you get serious of the National Press Club, by the government. And in discussion of the issues ev- who owned a camera, to go to several cases we were bumped ery day for three hours with the luncheon speeches and for off or cut back. It’s been a call-ins, faxes. It’s highly $200 buy a tape and take his long, hard road. I’m not sur- concentrated on the news of camera and bicycle it up to prised we’re as big as we are the day and events of this us. Literally, we had a guy and that we have so many city. There’s no weather, run the tape up to us on a people interested as I am that there’s no sports, there’s no bicycle. You know, I think in spite of attempts by some advertising. And it’s also a it makes a better story to- people to make the road hard, place, in the call-in segment, day, but it probably wasn’t that we have come through this where people are literally the wisest way in the world pretty much intact. asked to tell us what they to go about building a net- think. They’re not cut off work like this. I mean, we Jim: Certainly a lot of if we don’t like their ques- started simply and then began our readers think of C-SPAN tion or their statement. And to grow as people around the as “ congres-sional” cover- we let it flow without any country, more and more, told age. But there is so much interpretation, any argument us how much they liked it and more involved in C-SPAN. Can with them. I like to call it wanted more. you the national network that’s give us some kind of sense of devoted to the national con- Jim: We’re down here now what are the other types of versation. in your Capitol Hill offices. programs that you seek to Your staff is close to 200. cover? If you flicked on Jim: So from your nomen- C-SPAN reaches about 62-63 clature “Public Affairs” is million households and C-SPAN the guiding principle? 2, about 35 million. From I was a single that date in March, 1979, has Brian: That’s why it’s it been a consistent trend up- human being in called the Cable Satellite ward, or have there been peaks the mix who had a Public Affairs Network and not and valleys? What is that germ of an idea. the Cable Satellite Congres- history? sional Network. It’s not just “news.” These are events that Brian: There have been a happen that we would like to lot of bumps in the road. One C-SPAN this morning you saw think if you were here you of the biggest ones was 1982, the Easter Egg Roll on the could walk in and sit down when we had to leave the sat- White House Lawn. A couple and enjoy them and watch them ellite channel we were on that of days ago we’d see Newt for as long as you’d want to- was owned by the Madison Square Gingrich reporting on the -but you could see the whole Garden Network people, because State of the Contract. What thing. Jim: I understand that between politicians and jour- Harold: One of the most you’ve been a very strong pro- nalists. All we’ve tried to recent controversies that ponent for showing us much do with this request is say emerged is about the level of more of what’s going on, on “let us in, let us show the coverage on the floor of Con- the floor of Congress. You audience exactly what goes gress. We think of C-SPAN were recently quoted as say- on.” Basically, another way and we think that you are in ing, “this is the most open to say it is “stop trying to control. But who does con- country in the world and if over-control your image” be- trol the cameras? Who makes the First Amendment means any- cause people don’t trust it the decisions as to what is thing, it’s time for us to when they know that govern- covered on Congress? show the audience what’s go- ment controls the media. ing on.” There has been some Brian: Well, it’s very experimentation in that re- Jim: We’ve had some ex- difficult to get people to gard, not all of which has perimentation, haven’t we, re- focus on who controls what been favorably received by cently, that’s been done on cameras and when. And there certain members of Congress. the House? I understand, that are two different kinds of en- Can you tell us a little of some congress- people have vironments in which we find the ups and downs of the move- objected. They were caught ourselves plugged in. One of ment to show us much more of picking their noses or fall- them is the environment that the whole process onthe floor ing asleep or giggling or the House and Senate control. of Congress? whatever during the debate and If you ever see anything from they weren’t quite used to the floor of the House and Brian: Last November, af- that. Senate, almost without fail, ter the election, I wrote a except for the State of the letter to both Speaker Brian: These debates al- Union, the cameras are owned Gingrich and Majority Leader most always turn on something and operated by the tax-payer Dole and asked them permis- insignificant like an alleged supported staff of the House sion to let us put our own congressperson picking their and the Senate. In the House cameras in both chambers. We nose. This stuff is very se- they take their instructions would even, at our expense, rious, and our traditions are from the Speaker and the put cameras throughout both very serious, and it almost Speaker only. In the Senate, chambers to cover the entire always ends up being a debate they take instructions from event because it’s one of the about “do they wear too many the Senate Rules Committee. few places in town that you’re red ties?” and those are not It’s complicated as to how not getting a journalist’s important or significant those decisions are made. We view of what goes on. When items; but you’d be amazed how have nothing to say about what cameras go into the White often an elected official is they look at, what they shoot. House, they belong to the me- concerned about that. There Almost everything else dia. They don’t allow cam- has been some experimentation you see comes from cameras eras in the Supreme Court, but in the House and the Senate, that we own and operate and they ought to; and in that primarily in the House. But from choices we make as to case, they should also be me- every time they do experiment what we want to cover. On dia cameras. Any regulatory with it, the members get jumpy, any given day here you can agency, any hearing that we because they know all they have have almost 80 different cover, those cameras, again, to do is go to the Speaker events--and we might go to belong to journalists. We and say “stop showing me sit- seven, eight, or nine of them. have a tradition in this coun- ting in the chamber.” They’re We own 22 cameras that go out try that there is a separa- even considering the possi- in the field. We usually con- tion between politicians and bility of having an area of figure those cameras two to a the media. Although it’s the House roped off that no unit. Having said that, we blurred right now, there are camera can ever show, so that almost never have more than 6 too many of them coming out people know they can go within two-camera units working at of politics and going into me- this roped-off area and talk any given time. They turn dia and back. Radio’s almost to whomever they want to and into, sometimes, three-camera become the loser’s medium-- not have to worry about the units, because we now use a if you lose a congressional cameras ever picking them up. robo-cam, which gives us the race or if you lose a senato- This is nothing more than con- ability to put a camera on a rial race or a presidential trol. If you sit in the gal- witness without having a per- race, you go into the radio leries of the House and the son behind it and it just takes business. What it ends up Senate, you can see all of away that obstruction. You’ve being is all celebrity-based. this. So, it is a discrimi- got to know when you’re watch- We are a country that is over- nation against the medium of ing, whether you’re on the whelmingly celebrity-ori- television. If you work for floor of the House or the Sen- ented, more than we’ve ever a newspaper or wire-service, ate or anywhere else, as to been in our history. That’s you can sit in the gallery who controls the cameras. causing people difficulty in and see it all and report it understanding the difference all. We’re the only ones that have these kind of restric- picture, which had never been to be spending 21 hours, all tions leveled against us. done before, of what actually on basically one subject, and was said. We did a show with it turned out Jim: Are you optimistic? him in which he told us how to be slavery, and all the Do you think you’ll get what it was done. And out of that things that you want? came just an idea that we could come off of slavery--it just go to Illinois and travel to shows you how difficult de- Brian: I’m realistic. I the cities where the debates mocracy is, how difficult don’t think we’ll get what we were originally held, and ask change is, and how difficult want, certainly on this first the people there about what it is to get people’s go-around. It’s not an is- they knew about them and what attention long sue, frankly, that a lot of the history was. After we people in our business care did that, we decided to write about. I’m surprised. I would a letter to the mayor of each think that people in the tele- city and ask them if they were In 1979 C-SPAN vision business and the tele- interested in reenacting these vision/journalism business debates on their terms (choose shared a satellite would see this as an example the actors, choose the with the Madison of a place to fight and to scripts, choose the loca- Square Garden Net- speak up. But we’ve had very tions). Then we would come little of it. Everybody is in and televise them live. All work, sometimes busy and this doesn’t directly seven mayors said ‘yes.’ They being bumped off affect a lot of people but we all put on wonderful three- for pro wrestling. could have used more support hour debates. Each community, throughout this process. starting with Ottowa, tried to out-do the other one, and Harold: Mr. Lamb, of great what we got was seven ter- enough to get them to under- interest to a number of our rific performances that re- stand what all the issues are. NFL members is your recent re- ally gave us some video tape I think it’s a great example enactment of the Lincoln-Dou- that will be useful forever. of what we try to do every glas Debates. As you know, This will probably never be day here. People said “oh, the original debates served done like this again. They you’ll never get people to as the inspiration for the are dressed in period costume, watch three-hours of debates” very popular high school for- doesn’t matter when they’re And my reaction was that if mat that I, myself, have par- shown, and we’re very excited we get people to watch 24- ticipated in. Can you ex- about what we’ve got. It’s hours a day of public affairs, plain to us a little about not like everybody in the why would this bother them? why that particular event was world cares about these de- And they don’t have to watch chosen to celebrate the C-SPAN bates, but the President of it all if they don’t want to. Fifteenth Anniversary? the United States, as we’re We ended up doing 50 hours of talking, has on his desk the programming involving histo- Brian: Part of it was just Lincoln-Douglas statue that rians and local officials and pure happenstance. The Lin- was created by Lily Tolpo and speeches that were given in coln-Douglas Debates are a he’s referred to it as a good the different towns leading great example of what public example of what goes on in up to it and plays and all discourse could be if people this town all the time. that. It’s a terrific col- want to take the time. A lot Jim: Do you think this lection of material. of that hasn’t happened in his- is a unique event? Has any- tory, but those debates are one else suggested any other Harold: So far we’ve been often called the most impor- kind of events that you would discussing the content of C- tant political debates, cer- do the same thing for, the SPAN. I’d like to talk about tainly in this country’s 219 reenactment of something else? the fact that C-SPAN is now years. It happened because being brought to the nation Harold Holzer wrote a book Brian: There have been a via a large yellow school bus called The Lincoln-Douglas De- lot of other suggestions of traveling to a number of com- bates in which he published other things for us to do, munities. The school bus con- what he called the unexpur- but I’ve got to tell you, this tains cameras, lights, com- gated transcripts of what was is special for us. Someone puters, CD-ROM and you’ve even said there. It’s complicated suggested to reenact the Civil described the school-bus because he took the two news- War battles, and I don’t think project as literally “a drive papers that reported on it, it’s the same thing. We are for education.” Can you give the Chicago Tribune and the a discussion network and that us an idea of where this came Chicago Times, which basically was an example of the great- from and it’s exact purposes? supported Lincoln and Douglas est possible discourse you How would you state its mis- respectively, and he took the could ever expect between two sion? opposite paper’s transcript as human beings. To spend three a way of trying to get a true hours, actually, it turns out Brian: Well, like the Lin- opportunity to do historical word, “tedious”, as a public coln-Douglas Debates, the vignettes that air on the net- affairs network dealing with schoolbus comes from a book. work, to meet high school and issues that are complicated. It’s not unusual for us to middle-school teachers, to And the staff that we have go read a book around here and have double the number of stu- out there has been just spec- say that that’s something that dents on board. It just tacular. Anybody at C-SPAN we might learn from and use. doesn’t stop, the possibili- that works here can volunteer A Hofstra professor by the name ties. We’re gearing up to to go out on the Bus. One of Doug Brinkley, who now runs use the bus during the 1996 thing I can tell you is that the Eisenhower Center at the presidential campaign. It no one is told to go out on University of New Orleans, takes on the air of a person- the Bus. So if you’re out wrote a book about something ality. This is a network that there, you’re out there by he called the Majic Bus-- has no on-air personalities, your design, not by ours, and spelled with a “j”--in which but this bus, when it rolls that makes all the difference he taught American History into town, has that big yel- in the world. If people are during one of the quarters. low smile on its face, and told to go and do something, He invited college students people literally break out they take a whole different at Hofstra to join him on a with a smile on their face. approach to it. six-week trip around the U.S. It’s a great tool for educa- to see various historical tion. I don’t know if there Jim: I wanted to allude sites, towns, and anything will be Bus 2, 3, and 4, but to something you mentioned be- that might be considered use- we could have another bus. fore. Preparatory to this in- ful in trying to teach His- terview, I called a number of tory. He got an old bus, put Jim: In line with that, our members, both teachers and bunks in it, put the college you were quoted as saying “the students, and one question I students aboard it and they only star on this network is asked them, for an impression went around the United States the bus.” Our readers are purpose was, “in terms of C- while he wrote a book as he high school students and SPAN, how is it funded?" And went. We had him on our teachers and I know a number most people think that it's Booknotes show. We thought it of them personally who have public television. That's would be a good idea to bring encountered the bus and the their impression now. But I’d C-SPAN to life for a lot of reaction has been uniformly like to get a much clearer people who are put off either overwhelming. It almost one. The literature says that by the name or put off by the strikes me as the single most it is “privately funded to idea of watching government favorable thing, in terms of service the public via do its business, which some- enthusiasm, that you’ve been America’s cable companies.” times can be tedious. able to generate. No tax dollars are used to finance its operation, but no Jim: Some of the more re- Brian: There’s a little advertising too. Maybe you cent statistics I had seen in gimmick we use, though, and could explain -- who pays the early 1994 talk about its vis- it’s called the “C-SPAN bills? its to 116 schools, 22 state Staff,” that’s out there with capitals, 75 cities, 28,000 it. That is not an insig- Brian: That’s probably the miles--it really seems like nificant part of this pack- most important question you’ve an awesome project in that age. From the driver, to the asked so far, because virtu- regard. Do you envision, just bus manager, to what we call ally no one understands how as you did with C-SPAN, that our volunteer--and we have a it’s funded. But if they we are going to get a Bus 2, new one go out every week from thought a little bit about it, Bus 3...or is this the only here--you get nothing but ex- I think they would learn some- one? citement and enthusiasm. thing very important about our People come back from this bus systems of communications. Brian: Well, we’re talk- trip saying “that might have It’s possible to create, in ing about a Bus 2. It’s an been the greatest week of my American business, a philan- expensive proposition to put life--I might have learned thropic institution, like C- another bus on the road. It more that week, more than I’ve SPAN, without taking any fed- costs about $5,000 a day to ever learned about this coun- eral taxpayer money. We’ve keep a bus out there. It’s try, because it forced me to gone through a tremendous dis- got to work for us--it’s got think about what we do at C- cussion, and it will continue, to make a difference. The SPAN, what the relationship about public television. I first one has made a big dif- is between the Capital, Wash- have nothing to say about pub- ference. Those statistics are ington, and the communities lic television--that’s a sub- really old--we’re up to about they’re visiting, what edu- ject that everyone has strong 55,000+ miles that the bus has cation is all about, how hard views about, and I want to travelled. That bus has prob- it is to get students to pay stay out of that argument. ably been to 44 states by now. attention in this day and age But I will have strong things In most of those communities, to anything, let alone some- to say about the possibility it’s provided us a tremendous thing as, again I’ll use the that in this country American business people can create was necessary in order to, up in partisan politics. In something that has no bottom again I use the word, “pun- the end, the Republicans and line benefit to them, and this ish.” This was a punitive mea- the Democrats voted for this is one of them. It took lots sure. I was asked to testify bill. Out of 535 members of of different leaders of the and I did so. I told the the House and the Senate, only cable television industry to committee that if they were 139 voted with the industry, say “yes” to this concept. Not to pass this law we would be so that means that a clear only to say “yes” to the idea hurt. They passed it and we majority of both Republicans of forming a company called were hurt. I am sure it’s an and Democrats all voted to C-SPAN, but funding it. Not unintended consequence. I’m reregulate the cable televi- only about forming it, and sure that if the members of sion industry, so they all have funding it, but then carrying the committee knew that it was some responsibility for what it on the different cable sys- going to hurt us as badly as happened in the end. And the tems. Now, it hasn’t been it did, they would have given FCC was only carrying out easy, but without that sup- it a second thought. But it’s their wishes, and their port along the way, we would not like they weren’t fore- wishes, first and foremost, be dead in the water. Every warned. It’s a great example were to tell the American nickel that we spend--and of what happens so often. They people “we’re going to get that’s about the way that the were in such a big hurry to your money back.” But in the money comes to us, in nick- slap the hands of those people end, very little money came els--comes from the subscrib- in the business who had been back. And in the end, the ers to cable television sys- less than attentive to the cable television industry was tems around the country, to things that they thought were not overwhelmingly destroyed the local cable system, to the important, that they hurt a or hurt, it was slowed. Our corporate headquarters, to us, product that was a direct re- progress was slowed. Our in the form of a check that sult of what they all said ability to offer another chan- amounts to a nickel per home, they wanted. They all said nel was slowed. And it’s just per month. Our budget for they wanted new networks with a great example of what can 1995-1996 is $24 million, we public affairs and not com- happen when something is not have 200 employees, 40,000 mercially oriented. That’s well thought through. square feet, all of it lo- exactly what this network is, cated in Washington. None of so it’s a real sore spot and Jim: Do you find, in terms it is supported by the gov- we didn’t need this setback. of your conversation with mem- ernment. bers of Congress and with mem- Harold: This is at least, bers of relevant regulatory Jim: From what I have in part, as I understand it, bodies, that there is greater read, recent decisions of the a product of regulations by recognition on their part to- government have resulted in the FCC. Do you ascribe the day that a mistake was made some reduction in the possible same kinds of problems with or do they even perceive that homes you can reach, both in their decision-making process the consequences were not what terms of the FCC “Must-Carry” or was that a different error they had anticipated? Rules and the 7% cut in the on their part? What led them cable rates. I know you were to do what they did? Brian: It’s hard to know. quoted as talking about these Brian: I was naive about This is a tough thing for me kinds of decisions as being how it all works in Washing- to get into, because it now basically “wacko” in nature. ton. This is going to sound becomes rather partisan, which Maybe you could expand upon very cynical, but from my ex- I try to stay away from. Some that term. perience, it is the way I look members of the U.S. House and at it: everything that hap- the U.S. Senate are trying to Brian: Well, I used the pens here, happens because of repeal the law. The segment terms “wacko” because I felt money. Every decision that’s of the law that hurt us the that was the best way to ex- made, is made for one reason most is called “Must-Carry,” press my observations of this or another because large sums and is a complicated situa- bill. I think it gets people’s of money are being moved around tion no one cares about ex- attention. So much of what’s on a chess board. In this cept a few of the cable tele- done in Washington is done case, we were not big money. vision programmers. The sys- without thinking it through. We had no clout, no financial tem owners have bigger fish It’s done from an emotional clout. And at the Federal to fry. The Congress has big- standpoint. In this case, Communications Commission, ger fish to fry and the Fed- members of Congress set out they were very concerned about eral Communications Commission to punish the cable televi- telegraphing to the public on doesn’t want to fool with it sion industry because they behalf of the country that again. So, we’re left with didn’t like some of the indi- they were going to save them the consequences, and it’s viduals in it, and they didn’t money. It was a political going to continue to stunt our like some of their business decision, as so often is the growth. It won’t kill us. practices. So they reached case. And it led up to the But there are communities beyond--in my opinion--what 1992 Campaign, it got all mixed around the U.S. that do not have us because of the “Must- up is really, at the moment, Brian: Well, to start Carry” law. I suspect before a big question mark. I said with, I disagree with the it’s over there will be other earlier, everything revolves British. I would disagree communities that will have C- around money. We have to con- with any British Parliament SPAN taken away from them be- tinue to keep our eye on where member who said that televi- cause there will be a local the money comes from. There’s sion has changed that insti- shopping channel which must a possibility, as the future tution. I was there before be carried, another religious unfolds, that we’ll have to and I’ve been there since and channel in the area that must change the way we’re financed. there’s not a dime’s worth of be carried, or the fourth or At this early stage, there’s difference since television fifth public television sta- no way to know how long our has come to the tion that must be carried, du- industry will continue to be plicating programming that’s an industry or how long all already available on the cable the competing technologies The only star system. will want to pay the same money for the same service. In- on this network Jim: That leads us very stead of paying for basic is the bus conveniently to some aspects cable service someday, you of the future of C-SPAN. I might end up paying for only know you’ve been quoted as those channels that you want. saying you would look forward For people that are in the chamber. What really has to a C-SPAN 3, a C-SPAN 4, a high-buck world, who have bil- happened is that they’re now C-SPAN 5, one devoted to do- lions of dollars at stake, conscious of the fact that mestic politics, one to busi- this is a frightening time, television is there, and that ness and economics, one to en- because they have no idea how changes behavior. What kind vironmental affairs--all it’s all going to shake out. of behavior? It may be as within the predictions of a They have lots of money in- simple as the way you sit in 500-channel universe. Can you vested in their infrastruc- your chair to whether or not give us some ideas in that ture. We have relatively small you want to speak at all. short term, what kind of pre- amounts of money invested. I Prime Ministers’ question time dictions you’d make for C- think we have an infrastruc- is a good example. Since it’s SPAN? Your growth, you say, ture, a political infrastruc- only fifteen minutes long, it has been hurt by the activi- ture, for the country that’s never changes. It starts and ties of Congress and the FCC, here now, that somehow will ends the same way all the time but you are still proceeding survive. But how it will be on Tuesdays and Thursdays. on a growth track, as I un- paid for and under what um- The only thing that changes derstand it. brella is, at the moment, up is the perception of what is in the air. happening, which, in effect, Brian: This is a very has been exactly the same as pivotal point in the history Jim: A recent article it was before. I’m sure tele- of television and communica- stated, “Lamb’s flock was sow- vision has had a much greater tions and, for that matter, ing offspring around the impact but I’m not sure what data and telephone. And I, world.” Ireland, Australia, the impact is. I’m not try- honestly, can’t tell you what Venezuela, Japan--they cited ing to avoid the question, I life will be like for us in 40 countries in all which had don’t know what the impact is. five years. It will be dif- been in to consult with you But I know that we are every- ferent. There’s a convergence about the broadcasting of the where, for every major politi- of over-the-air television, legislative procedures. I cal event, and a lot of minor cable television, telephone, also noted, since I just hap- political events, and so a and satellite-delivered pro- pened to be up very late last certain number of people that gramming. The people that night, on a C-SPAN broadcast are interested in this coun- used to own cable television reviewing the experience of try, in America, can watch al- systems have sold, some oth- cameras with Prime Ministers’ most every aspect of the sys- ers have bought, questions over in Great Brit- tem unfold right in front of there’s a great migration go- ain. And some of the com- their eyes, from their living ing on. Telephone company ments were that it had become room. What that impact is, I people are in business with theatrical, disorderly--there do not know. I know that some cable people and vice versa. was a lot that they didn’t of the most minor political Telephone companies want to like. When you’ve consulted events are seen by some of compete with one another in with these people, have you the most important political the community. AT&T does not felt that certain types of leg- people. Because you hear them want to compete, but the ex- islative bodies are better when they speak. You can hear isting local telephone com- suited to cameras than oth- people like Bob Dole say, “I panies want to compete with ers, or is it just the pro- was home last night watching AT&T for long-distance ser- cess itself that opens itself such-and-such on C-SPAN,” or vice. So, where this all ends to camera coverage? Newt Gingrich saying the same thing, or Dick Gephart, or one of these folks, and so there’s And as much as it may sound raised on a C-SPAN program a cross-talk going on there. like I am running the place, celebrating the 50th anniver- What that impact is, is sig- other than being very inter- sary of the death of FDR, nificant, but it’s for others ested and involved in the pointing out how there were to discover, not me. And we’re overall, long-term goals, on virtually no photos, no visu- kind of passive in that pro- a day-to-day basis, I’m al- als of FDR with his braces or cess. And that’s very impor- most completely removed. in a wheelchair. The major- tant for people to understand- ity of the public really -that we just show up, and Jim: To conclude the ele- didn’t even know that he was show it and never try to in- ment of the future, I know suffering from polio. And this terpret it or analyze it and you can’t predict with preci- is now a major controversy at let people decide for them- sion what C-SPAN would be like the FDR Memorial as to how he selves whether it’s important by the year 2000. But you should be pictured. There or whether they think it’s said it’s going to be differ- was, if you wanted to even worthy watching. ent. Can you attach any quali- call it, a “conspiracy of si- fier to that of “significantly” lence.” It was not reported. Jim: Let me just finish different, “substantially” It seems inconceivable that up in this area. I was re- different, different just in anything like that would hap- cently reading the C-SPAN a minor way? What’s your gut pen today. The other was just “Mission Statement.” When was reaction at least, to the de- an illustration briefly in the that authored? Has it been gree of difference we’re go- Washington Post about one of changed over the course of ing to see? our more prominent, departed, time? Or was the “Mission colleagues Joe Alsop, and the Statement” something that was Brian: The greatest dif- whole idea of his being authored right at the begin- ference will be the amount “outed” for sexual behavior. ning of C-SPAN and that’s been that’s available. You’re go- Quote: “Forty years ago, it? ing to have a lot more events gentlemen ran the world back available on a real-time ba- then. Now, a secret spreads Brian: I don’t know how sis. You might have events in Washington, but if you know old that “Statement” is, it’s available on video on demand. the right people, it doesn’t not that old. It’s probably It could be delivered via the spread too far.” And the ex- at least between 5 and 8 years cable system into your com- ecutive editor of the Wash- old. We operated in the be- puter, so that you can call ington Post was quoted as say- ginning without a “Statement.” up things from time to time. ing, “well, the climate was That was developed by our ad- Although, that’s a very ex- so completely different then, ministrative staff, working pensive proposition right now. rumors about certain individu- with the rest of the company. I think the most significant als were discussed among news- The company is run by two co- difference, and it won’t men but never printed.” To- chief operating officers, Su- bother people that much, is day the balance is totally san Swain and Rob Kennedy. I how it’s paid for, who can shifted. I wondered if you very much consider them to be get it and how is it deliv- could give us any reflections the new generation here and, ered to them? I suspect the you might have on that bal- in fact, I am the oldest per- idea, in one form or another, ance and its movement between son in the company. And most will be the coverage from gavel “appropriately public” and of the people that work for to gavel at political events. “appropriately private?” Rob and Susan are younger than And it will be beyond where they are. I think this is it is now because we’ll be Brian: Well, to start very much a company for the able to go to foreign coun- with, when you run for office future. We have about as many tries on a live basis because and you’re asking the taxpay- women as men. We have more this will be affordable. ers to pay your salary to women on the management team than we do men. There’s no Jim: Let’s turn now to some woman who works at C-SPAN who of the conceptual questions Everything that doesn’t get exactly the same that were raised both by our amount of money as a man does potential readers and cer- happens in Washing- for a corresponding job. We tainly that are relevant here ton happens because have a significant amount of in the Washington community. of money. Every diversity here, which is not I’d like to start with a fairly only important to the coun- broad one and that is, what decision that's try, it’s exciting to have is the line for our officials made is made for people from different back- of what is appropriately pub- one reason or an- grounds to be around every lic and what is appropriately day. It’s one of the best private information? I was other because large things about working here. struck by two illustrations sums of money are It’s interesting, and the that appeared recently in the being moved around. people are inventing things press in terms of the balance every day on their own terms. between those two. One was rupts the most is what people You know, news, for an edi- represent them, it seems to do with money. tor, is in the eye of the be- me that you’d give up some of holder. An example would be your privacy. It’s a work- Jim: Are you in a situa- that we have had major jour- in-progress, as everything is tion where you find yourself nalists in this country de- in this country. But it’s having to make editorial cide that the O.J. changed dramatically over the judgements about coverage or Simpson trial is news. I would years--we are a much more open the level of coverage based strongly disagree with that. country today than we’ve ever upon these kinds of principles I think it’s a show. I think been. On some days, I know, about public and private, or it’s an opportunity for in- sometimes people wince, they is everything adequately pub- stitutions in the communica- think we’re too open. I don’t lic? tions business to make lots know. I don’t particularly of money. I think that al- care about peoples’ private Brian: No, we have a rule though there may be people in life, but if it becomes an here, and we get into it all the country who are interested issue in the campaign, we talk the time, and that is that if in it, they’re also interested about it here. I would never it’s an open meeting and the in soap operas. It’s a stretch sit down at an interview, per- gavel has come down, anything for people to conclude that sonally, and ask somebody if is fair game. It does not this is something so impor- they were a homosexual--it include a mike that is open tant to the body politic that just doesn’t matter to me. and the individual sitting in it must be available to them Although, having said that, front is thinking at the time on four, five, six television we do ask people if they are that they are having a pri- stations around the country. married, if they have a mother vate conversation. It’s real There’s a lot of duplicity in and father, if they have chil- easy for us to pot up that this town and there’s a lot dren and so forth. Maybe I’m mike and listen--that is of duplicity in our business. a product of my own genera- against our rules. If the But I’ll say it again and tion and that’s why I wouldn’t gavel has comes down and it’s again and again if you want ask the question. If some- a comment they’ve made in a to know why decisions are made body else “outs” somebody, I’d public meeting, that is some- today in our business--they’re have a strange reaction to it. thing we will not ever edit. often made because of the bot- The implication is that Now, we’ve been asked to at tom line. And news is deter- there’s something wrong with least once a week. People mined often by “how big will being a homosexual, or a gay come to us all the time and your audience be,” not whether person or a lesbian--and gay say, “I said something in a this is a journalistic en- people don’t think that, so speech that I didn’t want to deavor. That’s just the way it’s a complicated thing. You say. It’s only a couple of it is. It’s a free country. can’t just immediately react lines, will you take it out?” The only argument I have with with the right answer on this. People come to us to say, “I any of this is what people Joe Alsop and FDR are in two didn’t say something in an in- call “journalism.” How do you different worlds. But back terview that is important to define “journalism”--not then, there was a lot of wink- me--will you either take out whether it’s legal, or not ing and nodding going on be- the section where I inadvert- whether it’s right, or not tween the Joe Alsops and the ently didn’t say what I wanted whether it can be done or not FDRs. It’s hard to know what’s to?” or, in some cases, “add whether it should be done. Be- right and wrong. That’s why something to the interview.” cause I will never do any- I’ve always tried to stay in Which we have let them do. thing on O.J. Simpson. I my world. I stay on this side We’ll never let them take think it’s not irrelevant to and I’m not interested in be- something out, but we will let this society. But it’s not coming close with any politi- them add. nearly as relevant as some or- cians--I don’t want to know Jim: Do you feel that ganizations have tried to make them personally, I don’t want today, among the powerful it. to be their friends--I want players within the media es- to do a job. I think elected tablishment, the kind of se- Jim: Will you tell us your officials have got to under- crets we alluded to before definition of journalism? stand that we have a right, still exist about our public especially when we write the figures? Are there any kinds Brian: I don’t know that check for them, to know a lot of aspects in which we would I can give you a definition more than they would like to say, “well, we still won’t of what journalism is. I can tell us. I’m more interested, discuss that publicly?” try. As I said earlier, it’s though, in where the money in the eye of the beholder. comes from and where the money Brian: Well, there are I mean, it depends on what flows. I think that if you people in our media business kind of journalist you are. keep your eye on the money, that know things all the time Do you work for a tabloid, or the rest of it will fall into and don’t publish them. Some do you work for Reader’s Di- place. The thing that cor- of it is based on friendship, gest, do you work for Time some of it’s based on taste. Magazine or do you work for CBS News? And if you work Alvin and Heidi Toffler on, saying, “did you see this show” for CBS News, do you work for talking about the difference or “did you see that show” the Evening News or do you between what they categorized and everybody did because they work for Eye to Eye? I think as “anticipatory” democracy only had three choices, I a lot of people call it jour- and “participatory” democracy- never want to go back to that. nalism when it’s convenient. -a situation in which politi- Personally, I never liked it, It opens doors. If you said cians are worried about the because it’s really scary when you’re coming from the enter- results of decisions they make you know that only a few or- tainment division, they’d say, five or ten or twenty days in ganizations are deciding what “where’s the contract?” When the future as opposed to five you can see. Now, it’s all you say you’re coming from the or ten or twenty years in the over the lot. And especially news division, people kind of future. The second trend for my generation. I’m 53, waive the idea of paying for was one that was raised in and it’s harder to deal with something and they let you in these interviews, too, and this than it would be if you because you’re covering from it’s been cited as were growing up and had your a news standpoint. They’re “hyperinformation.” If we’re hands on a computer when you very lucky in this society to moving to a 500-channel net- were twelve. have something called the work, the voters will be sub- First Amendment, which means ject to a Jim: In terms of that they can say it’s any- blizzard of information. They “hyperinfor-mation,” I think thing. I’m not sure I should can tune in, they can you’re talking about two dif- even try to define what news “channelsurf.” They can get ferent kinds of information, is. I can tell you what pub- an immense amount of informa- which you might label as “raw lic affairs is. I could also tion readily available to them. information”--the facts, the say, a flip answer, it’s pretty I’d like your comments on basics--and “interpreted in- easy to tell what isn’t news those two trends. Do you per- formation”--I mean, the talk and what’s purely entertain- ceive those as being accurate shows’ with a spin upon that ment. Even at our small or- within our society or not and information. What is the more ganization, we have found our- to what degree are they im- relevant set of information selves televising events where portant? for more and more Americans? we look at each other saying, Are they making up their minds “that’s not public affairs.” Brian: I think they are on the basis of that basic, You know, when we have all of very important. But it de- raw information, or are they this time and all of these pends on who you talk to-- actually making up their minds opportunities, it’s easy to whether you talk to academics more on the basis of the talk make mistakes. I think where or people in the commercial show’s interpreted informa- we get caught is when we de- network business or whether tion, which might be danger- fine what journalism is and you talk to politicians. It ous? then do soap operas. depends on whose ox is being gored. From my standpoint, Brian: I think they make Jim: Let me talk about two you can’t get enough informa- up their minds based on what’s “hypertrends” in society which tion out in the marketplace. happening in their own pock- emerged in recent interviews I want to make it clear, I etbooks. I don’t think it that you yourself conducted. love watching interpretation. has a whole lot to do with a I’d like to get your reaction I like listening to televi- talk show telling them how to about their accuracy and their sion commentators, newspaper think. I think they go to degree of impact. One of which reporters--they help me un- talk shows and find themselves was explored in an interview derstand how the world works. in agreement with the talk show you recently did with Presi- I don’t want that to be my host before they even get dent Clinton, about the con- sole source--I never have. I there. Now, once they get cept of “hyperdemocracy.” The learned that first-hand when there, talk show hosts can trouble may be in Washington. I came to Washington, after fill them full of all kinds Not that the gov- having been out in the coun- of information that the host ernment is too disconnected try and being a recipient of wants them to know about. One from the people, but that it’s the information and then see- of the more valuable experi- too plugged in. Every deci- ing it for myself. Some people ences is to sit down and look sion, he said, is subject to are very disturbed by the fact at the numbers. Only 37-38% instant analysis, communica- that information is every- voted in the off-year elec- tions, polls. Congress can where. They liked it in the tion in 1994. Only 55% of be paralyzed by a blizzard of old days when it was control- the public voted in 1992. The faxes. Congress is too ab- lable. Politicians liked it important number, it seems to sorbed in constituent pres- when there were only three me, is that 50% of the people sure. I was interested to outlets. The thought of ever out there don’t pay attention see what I think was a re- going back to the time when at all. They don’t read the echoing of that concept just everybody experienced the same newspapers, they don’t watch last night on C-SPAN, on your media together, when you came television, they don’t lis- Booknotes program. You had to the office the next day ten to the talk shows about politics. We have a country ested in is the coverage by newspaper article now full of people that live the media of the political separate and distinct lives, process, of debates, that has and never shall the twain meet. emerged and grown recently. We have a rule This is hard for people to I read recently that C-SPAN understand and deal with be- carried 104 campaign debates here: if it's an cause there’s a tendency right in 1994--five times as many open meeting and now for one side to get very as in 1990. They talk about the gavel has come upset when a Rush Limbaugh says how the presidential contend- anything. Well, that’s just ers are eager to come in and down, anything is a real waste of energy be- wear your wireless mikes for fair game. cause next time around it’s “C-SPAN’s Road to the White going to be somebody on the House”--hoping for a little other side and they’ll be ter- free exposure. Could you re- ribly delighted. You’ve got flect for a little while upon they read the day they’re go- to be very wary of what any the role of television in the ing to vote. There’s no way side in this debate is saying process of the election and to control this. You’re not if they have a personal stake specifically the debates? To- going to control the flow. in it. If you are the talk day they are no more than se- The only thing that will con- show host, or the radio sta- rial press conferences, very trol what we see on televi- tion or the network, or if “quickie” responses. On the sion and see about politicians you are the politician, you’re other hand, the Lincoln-Dou- is money. Where does the money happy when you’re winning. glas Debates were three hours come from and what can it be Your skin is thin and you don’t in length. Is there some- used for? Do they have to like it when you’re criticized. thing in between that both continue to pay the exorbi- And there’s no one segment in fits the needs of the voters tant amounts of money they do this society involved that’s and the needs of television to T.V. stations that don’t either right or wrong. I don’t accurately? pay anything for their li- think it’s frightening at all. censes to talk back to the I think it’s very healthy and Brian: I thought the de- public? That’s the big is- I think it’s going to change bates in 1992 were very valu- sue. so drastically in five years able. They tried four dif- that there will be other con- ferent formats, and we learned Jim: Do you think the de- cerns. People are now start- a lot about which kind of for- bates are a good idea, though? ing to spit and sputter about mat we liked to watch. They the Internet. They don’t like had a huge audience, probably Brian: I think they’re an some of the language on there. the largest audience for poli- excellent idea. I’d rather have it out in pub- tics in the history of the lic so you can look at it, country. It’s just too bad a Jim: You mentioned before than I would, in a diverse lot of those people didn’t go that in the last set of presi- society, instead of doing it vote. One of the reasons why dential debates we had an op- in the back rooms, which the audience was so big was portunity to make up our minds they’ve been doing forever. because everybody devoted time about what kind of format we These people talking on the to it. That’s going to change like. Well, what format did Internet have been talking again. In a recent speech by you like? this way forever. They’ve Newt Gingrich on a Friday Brian: I like a format been talking this way in pri- night, which all networks somewhere nearer the Lincoln- vate clubs or letters that didn’t cover, he had a very Douglas Debate format than they write one another or tele- low audience. People chose anything I’ve seen so far. phone conversations. You’re to watch him on the basis of That would mean a format in just able to see it now. I what their choice was for the which the two candidates, or don’t spend any time on it, I night on the other channels the three candidates, in some don’t care about it, I don’t and he didn’t do very well. formula, had to talk among want to look at it, it doesn’t You see, I think most people themselves, instead of through matter to me. So, attacking make up their minds on po- reporters. That should not the system of communication litical campaigns long before be interpreted to mean that I seems to me to be something the last couple of days, last don’t like reporters. I don’t that I’d be wary of, and I’d couple of weeks, of which side like any show-biz aspect of just check and ask, “who is they’re going to. I mean the it. If you’ve got a modera- worried about this and what majority of people--probably tor, the moderator should be kind of financial interest do 75-80%-have already made up an unknown. You shouldn’t be they have?” their minds. Twenty percent seeing people focus on an an- have some doubt as to how chor, or any network, or any Jim: I know in terms of they’re going to vote. And, star. It should be close to the members of the National at that point, everything fac- the Lincoln-Douglas concept Forensic League that one of tors into it. From the ads where they have to talk to things they are most inter- to their neighbors to the each other. Those debates were too long, in the sense Speaker in interviews I’ve don’t just come here and in- that, in this day and age-- done. And you know, I don’t terview. We have a very small let’s face it--you want the want a publicity stunt. The niche in this world. At the largest possible audience. If idea is that somebody would moment, we’re paid for. Our an hour and a half is as long take this seriously. The fact weakness is our strength in as you’re going to keep people, that Newt Gingrich is not, at the American system. In this probably having one modera- this moment, running for presi- system money is everything and tor and some kind of a time dent is a plus, because it your bottom line is what ev- system that’s not two minutes wouldn’t be looked at as a eryone looks at. And that’s for each answer is optimal. presidential contest. Al- our weakness, because we don’t though if it happened, they’d have a bottom line profit re- Jim: The Lincoln-Douglas probably write it up that way. quired by our board of direc- framework was actually not I’m interested in a learning tors. But it’s also our “talking to each other.” It discussion not in a stunt; and strength. We aren’t judged was, really, just a series of I haven’t made up my mind yet on a day-to-day basis by the three set speeches. I take how it would be viewed, so I numbers we deliver. So, I it you’re recommending some- just haven’t sent the letter. guess one of the lessons in thing in which there is more all this is that nobody has definite interchange between Harold: Continuing in the it their way all of the time. or among the candidates? area of politics, does it per- And as long as we have as di- sonally bother you in your verse a communications sys- Brian: Well, I’ve had a role as an interviewer when tem as we can get here, the letter drafted that I haven’t callers to your morning talk public will be served with sent yet, I’m not sure I will show ask your political views; choice. That’s what I think send it. I’m not sure what whether you are a Republican is the most important thing the reaction would be. It or a that you can have in this coun- proposes to both President try. Clinton and Speaker Gingrich that they sit down right now From my standpoint, Jim: When we talk to teach- in the context of the Lin- ers and students around the coln-Douglas Debate and have you can't country, and explain that a conversation. We would give get enough informa- we’re from Washington, DC, them three hours time if they tion out in there’s no question that want. It could be structured there’s an attitude in the part or unstructured, depending on the marketplace. of many about the Washington, what they would like. But in DC, establishment. Maybe, the end, they have to deal maybe not, fueled by the news with one another. They have Democrat? And as a second coverage. Let me cite two to talk about all the issues part, now that you are the brief statements. Ellen Hume in a way where we see the two interviewee, would you care has commented that “each suc- of them cross-examining one to reveal a certain leaning cessive President has gotten another. It doesn’t have to either way? more negative coverage. be a confrontation, it doesn’t Clinton has been covered even have to be a contest. But it Brian: No, I would never more negatively than Bush, who can be, if they want to. reveal a leaning either way. was covered more negatively They’re both glib, and they’re You know, frankly, at this than Reagan in this kind of both smart, and they’re both stage in my life I don’t have culture of criticism.” And well-educated. much of a leaning because what just on a C-SPAN program yes- I do for a living is not lean. terday, Hamilton Jordan from Harold: Could you share We’ve convinced most people the Carter administration with us what would be any of that “we don’t care what you said, “Watergate and Vietnam the factors leading you not think.” That’s what we’re meant that the press went from to send such a letter? You here for, is to be a conduit. skepticism to cynicism, and said you might not send it, I’m not selling myself to any- ever since it has gotten worse why wouldn’t you? one. Audience ratings don’t and worse.” He said, “if you mat-ter in my life. I’m lucky go to DC, in any major role, Brian: Well, you know, that way. In order for us to you may very well be trashed. I’ve had this letter drafted be successful no one here has You’re career may very well for a couple months. I don’t to become a star. As a mat- be destroyed, so frankly, my know, you don’t want to be a ter a fact, it’s not in your advice to many people is ‘don’t fool in this city. I mean interest to do that here, go.’” Do you perceive that you don’t want to throw some- you’d be in trouble. We have kind of movement from skepti- thing up just for the purpose no agents, no contracts. cism, to cynicism to negativ- of throwing it up and have People work this network as a ism on the part of many areas people laugh at you. I’ve vocation. A part of that is of the media? talked around this idea with that you do everything. You both the President and the Brian: Jim, it’s very complicated. I don’t think I political trends, that’s your You’re expectations for a can give you a glib answer. fault, not the media’s. It’s nickel a month are far greater Most of the skepticism, and I all there. than they should be.” In many don’t know that I’d go so far ways we are a very selfish as to say it’s negativism, but Harold: In trying to root nation. We’ve got more money most of the skepticism on the out any political tilt that and more choice than any place part of the media is very help- C-SPAN as a whole might have, in the world and we want more, ful. I think, as I look back obviously you don’t have the we want it our way now. And on what I know of history, it problem with picking out a spe- we have a very short atten- might have looked more com- cific sound bite from an event tion span, and so people jump fortable for us not to know and having that taken out of to a lot of conclusions about that FDR was in a wheelchair, context. But how do you what the news media has done but it was wrong. If jour- achieve an overall balance over the years that’s not ac- nalism is anything, it should when you’re making a program- curate. be a window to the voters and ming decision? Do you look the American people, and a at five or six conservative Jim: I suppose this is par- true window--a true picture point-of-view programs versus tially a function of what you of what is actually happen- five or six liberal point-of- mentioned before, that people ing. It’s complicated because view programs and try to bal- do not recognize the informa- a lot of politicians over the ance them out? How do you go tional “bargain” on a cost- years haven’t told the whole about making that decision? benefit basis that C-SPAN rep- truth. So that’s the value Brian: We keep records. resents, because they don’t of the journalist being there, We look at the world in years, recognize how it’s paid for. saying, “wait a minute, you not days. We consider our Somehow they think that it is, said this here, you said this mission to make sure that if in fact, a public service-- there.” you are a C-SPAN user that that it is theirs by right. Now the public, in the end, all sides are there over time. Under the circumstances, that might say, “I don’t care It comes in chunks. Some weeks is not the case. whether he told the truth or it’s the speaker’s week and not, I’m gonna vote for him,” some weeks it’s the Brian: One interesting and that happens all the time, president’s week. But again, thing is that the average “because it’s my side.” But, I go back to what I said ear- telephone bill on a monthly other than what I think might lier, I don’t know very many basis is $60 a person. And be an overdoing of some petty, people who make a decision at all you do is pick the phone personal things most of the the very last minute, based up and talk to somebody--the time what journalists have on the last speech that they telephone company does noth- gone after is healthy. If saw. In spite of what people ing else but have a pipeline. you’ve done nothing wrong, you think, they have some sense The average cable television have nothing to worry about. of where they are. And what bill is around $35. And what Very few people are run out we’re doing is providing them happens? The average number of town because they did some- with an on-going conversation of channels is somewhere thing right. And in spite of about these different issues, around 40 that come into your all of the negative public- with the intent that they hear home with all of this choice. ity, many politicians’ popu- as many sides as we can get It’s the same thing about a larity hasn’t changed that on the air. A lot of people newsstand--you go into a news- much. want this information when stand and spend $35 on maga- they’re ready to watch it or zines. It’s more than a little Jim: So you would not read about it. When they don’t bit out of balance. You go agree with Speaker Gingrich get it when they’re ready, to a basketball game. Some- about the “elitist media” and they turn around and criti- body was telling me last night- the “despicable demagoguery” cize the sender. I had a woman -you go to an NBA basketball of the press, as a general one time call in and say, “you game and it’s $33 a ticket. characterization? know, you really bother me, One game is worth one month you’re only giving one side of entertainment on cable Brian: I think that of the issue.” And I said, television. People have a ten- there’s plenty of choice now, “well, when do you watch, dency not to do that very of- there should be more. Years ma’am?” And she said, “well, ten--they don’t compare pric- ago the news media I watch every Wednesday morn- ing. You spend an exorbitant was far more partisan than it ing between 9 and 10. As far amount of money moving around is now. You know, twenty- as I’m concerned, if you don’t in an automobile. You don’t five years ago you might balance that hour between 9 think about how much you spend have found a tilt in the me- and 10 every Wednesday, then because you pay your insur- dia. You might still find a you’re not living up to what ance on one bill, your gas on tilt in some reporters now. you say you’re mission is.” another bill, your car pay- But if you can’t find every And my reaction to that is, ment on another bill, and your day enough material to read “get a new life. You’re not taxes on another bill. And to satisfy your side of the being realistic about this. it all adds up to six, seven, or eight thousand dollars a I don’t regret it for one know about the Lincoln-Dou- year. And you don’t think about minute. But I’ve learned since glas Debates. But I would that. With cable, for some I’ve been in this business that ask them about another pro- reason or another, people have I would have been much better gram, Booknotes, and there an inflated idea about that, off to have a double major in were very few, surprisingly, probably because they got Business and History. I go who actually knew much about television “free of charge” back to what I said earlier-- the program or who had seen for years. It was never “free for me it’s a learned experi- it. And yet, I would have to of charge.” It’s one of the ence--that everything is confess, personally I find it great myths in the history of money. “Everything,” by the one of the most fascinating this country that over-the- way, is not money to programs in terms of the en- air radio and television is tire range of options offered. “free of charge.” Every day I know you’ve recently cel- you buy a bar of soap, a roll If journalism is ebrated the Fifth Anniversary of toilet paper, an automo- of the program. I understand bile, you pay for your free anything, it should that it was your idea to just radio and television. But be a window to the combine “the guest, the host, it’s hidden. voters and the the book, and one hour” and that’s what it’s supposed to Jim: I’d like to shift American people -- be. Can you tell us some- radically here to several more and a true window thing about the program? personal aspects. I know, of what is actually from your 22 years back in Brian: Well, first of all, Indiana and at Purdue, that happening it’s a reaction to what I saw you have a degree in Speech, on commercial television. I which is obviously of rel- became increasingly frustrated evance to our readers. Now, me personally. I want to make when I would watch an author today, in modern America, is sure you don’t misinterpret on a morning show get six min- that a relevant degree? Do it--that’s the last thing I utes of time and at the end you think you learned a lot think about. But in our so- of the interview I knew noth- through it? Or if you could ciety, it’s the thing, at ing about the author--where go back, would you select a least in this day and age, in he or she was from, what their different subject? this generation, that moves background was. I learned a the needle. And if you want couple of spicy tidbits from Brian: I would not major to get in the “real world” the book, and I had no idea in Speech. I think it’s a and you can learn how to run whatsoever whether I wanted relevant course of study, but a business, and you know the to go buy the book. And so it I don’t think it’s a relevant difference between a profit was a direct result of this major, unless you’re going to loss and a proforma, and all experience that we decided to teach it. Let me explain now, the things that I had to learn try this idea. Actually, it if I were to do it over again, on the job, and you have some grew out of something that has I’d get a degree in History. sense of history--in this kind had such a dramatic impact in I would love to take Speech-- this country that it probably Brian Lambof business, receives the you’re first in annual much Spirit of I’ve always been involved in fits in this discussion, and Lincoln Awardbetter fromshape. Lincoln Had Life I had President a John Speech and I learned a lot. that is the Vietnam War. One Boscia. series Lincoln of Scholar Speech Gerald courses, Prokopowicz in looks And at Purdue University, of the principal figures in the context on. of all that, I where they had the “Motivated would have been just as well the Vietnam War history is Sequences” taught by Monroe, off as I am with a Speech ma- Neil Sheahan. He used to be it was a very easy way to learn jor. But they had no Broad- a reporter for the New York how to get into this busi- casting major at Purdue. Times and United Press Inter- ness. And I have never for- national. And he wrote a book gotten it and I will always Jim: I’d like to give you called Bright Shining Lie. remember the basic course-- the opportunity to do a When some early excerpts came Speech 114. I don’t see how little--what do I want to say- out on Bright Shining Lie, my Speech would help somebody as -personal prostletizing here. reaction was “I want to know a major, unless you were go- In surveys and discussions more about this man, and this ing to teach it, study it, or I’ve had with other individu- subject and this book than six write about it. Now I don’t als from our own membership, minutes on the Today show.” want to be glib about this. they obviously identify the So, we asked him to sit down I’ve not thought about it. I debates on the congressional with us for two and a half mean I’ve not thought about floor, some of the hearings, hours. We made five 30-minute what the Speech degree does. the various panel shows that programs out of that, stripped I took Speech because I was are there. They can even tell it across at eight o’clock at not a very good student and I me something about the Majic night, and that was really the love that course of work, and Bus. Many of them have expe- beginning of Booknotes. I was interested in communi- rienced it personally. They cations and broadcasting. And Jim: Do you find that the dynamics of each program are one night, one hour. As I will help you better under- very different? I must con- travel, I get more comments stand this phenomenon?” It’s fess, in those I’ve seen, some- about Booknotes than anything different than almost every times I have the feeling that else that I’m involved in. Of other book that I’ve done. I’ve walked away learning much course, it’s me, I’m on there. There may have been five or more about the author and not And you either really like it six in the history of too much about the book. And or you really don’t like it. Booknotes like it, because it’s in others I’ve learned a great As to selection, we have a so visible and so controver- deal about the book but not number of things we do to give sial, and so much talked-about. too much about the author. Do it some tradition. An author You apply different tests in you try to balance out the only gets on Booknotes once. your own mind as you’re pre- degree of exposure, of explo- The book has to be non-fic- paring to sit down with a man ration, of each of those kinds tion and it has to be a hard- like former Secretary of De- of subjects each time or do back, which eliminates a lot fense McNamara. you have a set pattern as to of other books. So you al- what you want to learn for ways know every Sunday night Jim: Reflecting over those the hour? when you tune it in, you’re five years of Booknotes, since going to see somebody you’ve we just celebrated the anni- Brian: There’s no pattern never seen in that slot be- versary--for most of the read- whatsoever. Your perception fore. We like to find books ers who obviously are not fa- is absolutely accurate. As a no one highlights or spot- miliar with the program--you matter of fact, last night the lights, because there are talk on the program about as- Tofflers’ show was all about a lot of books out there that pects like the dedications, the authors. And the reason never make it to the televi- the covers, what a simple for that is, the book is about sion. I’m looking at a book question might be, a particu- 112 pages long. The Tofflers right now on Rutherford B. lar quote out of this, an el- became famous for three big Hayes. You will not see a ement of surprise. Are there books: Power Shift, Future biography of Rutherford B. any particular reflections you Shock, and Third Wave. We Hayes on the Today show--un- find that you’d like to call heard about their theories on less there’s some scandal in- to mind in terms of what you and on but know very little volved. It just isn’t going found particularly informa- about them. It’s just a sense to draw. We also would do a tive, educational, just en- I have, and it’s not always book like The Moral Animal, joyable? right that, on that occasion, by Robert Wright, which is all people would rather know about about Charles Darwin and his Brian: I’m always in- them than they would the con- relevance to the world, which trigued by the answer to the tent of this little book. you’re not going to see on questions about the dedica- There’s no rhyme nor reason many shows, because, frankly, tion, because it’s often a to it. it’s complicated and deep and surprise. You get stories out ethereal. It’s in a category of people. They’ve thought Harold: I noticed from the that doesn’t lend itself to it out. It is not something advertisements on C-SPAN that spicy television or even large they have idly decided. The you’re going to have Bob audience television. And then former Librarian of Congress, McNamara on one of the next you get a book like the Rob- Daniel Borsten, always dedi- few programs in terms of his ert McNamara book, where you cates his books to Ruby, his new book. Are authors se- automatically say, “you know wife--it’s just the way he lected from books that have he’s going to be everywhere, does it. Cheryl Woo Dun, New made a big public impact? How you know the style of other York Times reporter now in Ja- do you select the books and shows--maybe we can shed some pan, wife of Nicholas the authors? Who gets over new light on it.” Not al- Kristoff, dedicated the book the threshold of visibility? ways, but at least you know to her sister. Now, I wasn’t you’re going to have 57 min- paying attention, but it had Brian: Well, it’s a very utes uninterrupted to talk a life date on it, like, I complicated process, but not about the book. In this case, don’t remember what it was, very sophisticated, on how we I haven’t done the interview 1952-1983, and I didn’t see select the book authors. By yet, and don’t know how it’s the 83--I didn’t pay atten- the way, back to your earlier going to come out. I want to tion to it. And I asked her comment regarding how you were offer people an alternative where her sister lived. And surprised that a lot of people to what they’ve been seeing she said, “my sister was hadn’t seen Booknotes--our re- other places. I’m not sure killed in the KAL-007 disas- cent poll/survey indicated in where the heavy emphasis is ter.” I can’t tell you what the preliminary numbers that going to be. We know what he that moment feels like, when only 11% of the people that said in that book because it’s you learn those kinds of have access to C-SPAN have been everywhere. And my ques- things and your mind is going ever seen Booknotes. Now, that tion going into the interview 100 miles an hour saying “what doesn’t surprise me. It’s one is, “what don’t we know?” do I do with this?” I didn’t program, “What don’t we know and what do anything with it, I just left it alone. And when you go back over the now almost communication in the future pens, and I’m sure it’s as six years of Booknotes, there as being? Are we becoming disappointing to the author have been enormously inter- out-of-date? as much as it is to me. esting answers to the ques- tion of “who are these people?” Brian: “We,” meaning? Jim: You discussed a Most recently, Lynn Shear was while ago the future and on talking about Susan B. An- Jim: “We,” meaning stan- the change going on. I’d thony. She dedicated it to dard T.V., if we think of it like to talk about one more her three step-sons, who were in this regard. cosmic aspect of the fu- in their thirties, as I re- ture. We’re constantly member. I didn’t have the Brian: I don’t know. I’m bombarded with the idea of sense to ask her what her hus- not terribly comfortable with the “global information band did. Now her husband is computers. I never learned society” and the expansion deceased. I didn’t know that, to type much when I was grow- involved therein. I was I don’t know how long he’s ing up, and so it’s just not struck with a recent sur- been dead. It’s these per- that easy from the typing vey that in the 1990s, sonal things, without invad- standpoint. I know that for Americans are very increas- ing their privacy, which just basic incompetents like me ingly comfortable with tech- help you better understand why they allow the use of the nology. One in three has a a person is doing what they mouse, which does make it so personal com-puter and half are doing. It’s often a nice that even people like me can use a computer at work. little window on the indi- deal with it. It’s just not There are many, many ve- vidual and what makes them as comfortable for me to use hicles on the information tick. I would say that eight the computer as I can see it superhighway. This is of out of ten are predictable: is for younger people. And I very great relevance to many my wife, my father, my mother. think that I’m the wrong one of our readers. We are now to ask about this. I love, starting to see competitive Jim: I have the feeling, more than anything, the printed debaters doing their re- in terms of the readers that word. I’m happiest with five search through computers-- we have, the students and or six newspapers and a 5- even bringing their own per- teachers, we’ve done a pretty hour, transcontinental flight. sonal computers to tourna- good job of peaking their cu- I learn at my pace. I can ments so they can con- riosity about the program. Let dart around in the paper when stantly plug into the most satisfy it in one more re- I want to. It’s quick--as up-to-date information upon gard. Just tell us when it quick as I can turn a page I a particularly critical airs. can be on a new article. It’s subject. The rhetoric of the best money that I ever “Internet, and Cyberspace, Brian: It airs every Sun- spend for those five or six and digital, user-friendly” day night, East Coast time at newspapers. The computer, are very familiar. Last eight, and repeated East Coast unless you have a special night on Booknotes the time at eleven. It’s seen line, which we do here at the Tofflers identified the around the country at the same company, is slow. You could three fundamental revolu- time, based on your time zone. waste an enormous amount of tions as being the Agri- And then it’s even repeated time finding just the area you cultural Revolution, fol- the next morning at 6 a.m. want to be in. I find it even lowed by the Industrial which gives you an opportu- slow in our own area when I Revolution and then the In- nity, in any of these cases, want to learn information formational Revolution. to tape it if you’re really quickly, when the computer is All of that long, interested. I can promise you stuck, it won’t move, or what- prolegomenon material is a couple things about ever it is. So, I’m not sure just to ask: what do you Booknotes. One, I’ll start about all this. I’m not one see the technology of by saying what it isn’t. It’s to pooh-pooh it, I’m just not not going to always be excit- sure. ing. If you have the time, I can promise you that you’re The Lincoln- Jim: One thing that struck going to learn something you Douglas Debates me a great deal in the Anni- didn’t know. And if you don’t were an example versary tape on Booknotes, you learn something you didn’t personally said: “Books have know, you can blame both of of the greatest been around forever, they will us, both the author and the possible dis- be around forever, and I sus- interviewer. We ought to be course pect that they will be more spanked if we can’t, in an important than they have ever hour, come up with some rel- you could ever been as time goes by.” I was evant new information. Al- expect between wondering how you would re- though I will tell you that two human beings. late that to this world of once in a great while it hap- computer and instantaneous, almost compartmentalized, in- have to in order to stay in and universities in this coun- formation? their jobs. And so far, so try that are businesses. They good. But it’s going to employ people, they own prop- Brian: I’m not sure I’m become increasingly neces- erty, and it’s very much in right about that. We feel so sary to know how to get to their interest to continue to strongly about books that we a targeted audience via operate as businesses. Most have over a million of them cable and any kind of ser- over at the Library of Con- vice. I think you’re go- BRIAN P. gress. We go out of our way ing to find more video-on- LAMB to preserve them. Sometimes demand used eventually by Brian P. Lamb helped found they’re not based on today’s politicians. They drop a C-SPAN and has served as the technology--the most efficient note, they send an e-mail company’s chief executive of- way to store information. But to your computer, “my lat- ficer since it began. some things are there just be- est statement on such and The concept of a public cause people like them. Speed such is available--call it affairs network that provides is not necessarily everything. up by ‘gingrich.com’” and in-depth coverage of national If speed were everything, no all that special language and international issues was one would drive because al- they use. But there’s some a natural for Mr. Lamb, who most everybody can afford to of it there but it’s not has been a journalist and a travel by airplane if they universal by any means. political press secretary. have to. But people enjoy Interested in broadcasting getting in their cars and Jim: Do you think that since childhood, he worked at driving through looking at the with the growth of tech- Indiana radio and T.V. sta- scenery. It’s too early to nology we are going to need tions while attending high tell what the new generation colleges and universities school and college. really wants. There’s some anymore? Is there going After graduation Mr. sense that the CD-ROM is a to be a real barrier to ef- Lamb joined the Navy. His technology that for the time fectively studying at home, tour included White House duty being is catching on, but it’s to just plugging into a net- and a stint in the Pentagon still expensive. It’s a rare work and obtaining the lec- public affairs office. In occasion that you can buy a tures, et cetera, that are 1967, he returned home but CD-ROM at the same cost of a all there? Not that we soon returned to Washington, book, especially the discount won’t need the professors, where he worked as a freelance book. It’s too confusing to not that we won’t need the reporter for UPI Audio, a Sen- know for sure how it’s all thinkers, but can the ate press secretary and a going to end up. It’s just a classroom process be effec- White House telecommunications sense that I have that people tively replicated through policy staffer. are always going to want to technology? In 1974, Brian Lamb be- read newspapers and always gan publishing a biweekly going to want to buy books. Brian: Probably not. newsletter called The Media But again, I am not an ex- Report. He also covered com- Harold: Last night, the pert on this. But I sus- munications issues as Wash- Tofflers made the interest- pect that one of the things ington bureau chief for ing point that between the you can’t shortchange is CableVision magazine. It was fifties and the sixties, Wash- the importance of money and from this vantage point that ington--the government, Con- education. The cost of the idea of a public affairs gress--was out of touch with education is soaring, and network delivered by satel- the technological changes. Do it’s getting harder and lite began to take shape. you still see that being the harder to imagine young By 1977, Mr. Lamb had case in your interactions on people in the future being won the support of key cable Capitol Hill and the FCC con- any more in debt than they industry executives for a cerning the new, emerging are now. I know of a young channel that could deliver needs of communications? lady who is 26 years old, gavel-to-gavel coverage of the $60,000 in debt. And that’s U.S. Congress. Organizing C- Brian: There’s no ques- not, by any means, the high- SPAN as a not-for-profit com- tion. There are very few ex- est figure that others have pany, the group built one of perts on Capitol Hill about heard of. Now she was in D.C.’s first satellite uplinks the use of television. They law school, so that’s by March 1979—just in time to hire consultants in campaigns. graduate school, and doc- deliver the first televised There’s very little sophis- tors spend a lot more money session of the U.S. House of tication in the way televi- becoming doctors than they Representatives to 3.5 mil- sion is being used on the part do in almost in any other lion cable households. of individual members. That profession. That’s a tre- With cable industry sup- has not changed dramatically. mendous burden, and some- port, C-SPAN grew rapidly from And that’s not criticism. The way or another that’s got a part-time video programming simplest way to put it is they to stop. But remember service. Today, more than 60 will change as fast as they you’ve got 3,300 colleges million households can tune that there’s no humanity to times skillfully, sometimes in C-SPAN’s flagship televi- it--it doesn’t feel and taste not so skillfully. But I’d sion network. and opine, except something like now to turn to a real Brian Lamb, who is also that somebody else has put in expert in terms of question- one of C-SPAN’s on-air hosts, there. I just think the hu- ing. These are all questions lives in Arlington, Virginia. man thing will be very impor- which you personally asked In 1995 he was presented tant forever. various guests on Booknotes, the first "Spirit of Lincoln" or in interviews with the award for his re-creation of Jim: So, overall, you’re President or elsewhere. I’ve the Lincoln Douglas Debates optimistic about the impact tried to adapt them to our by Lincoln Life. of technology in your profes- particular context here to- sion? day. First, a question you of them don’t make money, but asked President Clinton in a itdoesn’t matter. They’re so- Brian: There’s a down-side very recent interview. In cial institutions, they’re to it. As a consumer, I am your sense, if you could talk learning institutions and the personally concerned that the to any past media personal- human contact is very impor- lowest common denominator has ity, or an author or politi- tant. Whenever somebody said, gotten lower. A lot of tele- cal leader, who would it be “how did you get to where you vision is reprehensible. But and what would you want to are?”, I never say, “well, it again, I feel very strongly, talk about? was that computer in the other I don’t want any government room that got me there.” I to interfere in the process. Brian: I’d love to talk have always felt that I am It’s probably going to get with James Madison. I think somewhat of a self starter, worse before it gets better. he’s probably the most unap- but if I go back in my life, I You’re always going to have preciated of all the founding will name you five college the bad and the good. But fathers. I suspect it’s be- professors and high school until you get a system that cause he wasn’t very flashy. teachers, who, had they not has tremendous opportunities And he also did a poor job of been there, I wouldn’t be at a low cost, you’re not go- keeping a lot of his records, here. The man I give the most ing to get a lot of people unlike Thomas Jefferson who credit to teaching me what I creating. There’s some real knew how to keep books and needed was a high school broad- quality being done, I don’t give books to the Library of casting teacher, Bill Fraser. want to shortchange the great Congress. You know, Madison My high school speech teacher, work that some people are do- was a small person in stat- Jim Hawker, [JJU Note: six ing in this business. But, ure. In size he was only 5’2"- Diamond Key Coach James F. at the heart of all this is 5’4", no one’s quite sure how Hawker was Director of Foren- the dollar. And schlock tall he was, but he had a tre- sics at Lafayette’s Jefferson sells. It’s always sold and mendous impact on what we have High School in Indiana and is it always will sell. But it’s today in the way of a founda- an Original Member of the NFL like the printing press. If tion. And it goes back to Coaches Hall of Fame] was not we started with the printing the fact that he was very re- an insignificant part of my press and only three people sponsible for the Annapolis education when I was in high owned it, and you had to get meeting that led to the Con- school. In college, I had 4 their permission and they set stitutional Convention. But or 5 wonderful professors, the prices. And they set the more including Dick Crowder who was prices high enough so that a professor of music--he you’re entrance fee was so taught me the appreciation of great you couldn’t get in. JAMES J. UNGER music. And Eric Clithereau, Then we would never have had who taught me the philosophy the 50,000 books a month and Director of Forensics at of religions. And Jim Hous- the incredible number of maga- the National Forensics Insti- ton, who taught me history. zines that you can buy out tute and The American Univer- And I can go down the list of there in all different walks sity, and former Director of people impacting on me, who I of life, because people would Forensics at Boston College can remember to this day. You have never been able to af- and Georgetown University. know, I never say, “if it ford to get in. That didn’t Unger received his B.A. as wasn’t for that book I inad- happen in print, but it has valedictorian from Boston Col- vertently found in the li- happened in television, and lege and his J.D. from Har- brary.” It still, for me, it’s going to be years before vard University Law School. was a person. Now you do hear we get over it. As an intercollegiate debater people say, all the time, “un- he reached the semifinals and til I read that book, I didn’t Jim: Let me close with finals of the National Debate understand the world.” But some brief questions which Tournament. During his years it usually is a teacher who might be familiar to you. as coach at Georgetown his says, “have you ever read this We’ve been trying our best to teams reached the final round book?” A computer is an in- probe your thoughts on a va- of every major intercollegiate animate object, in the sense riety of subjects here, some- tournament, including the Na- tional Championship, often alist Papers, which some give a reason, in a nutshell, more than once. His teams people think are the most im- one paragraph, why the aver- were ranked "Number One" in portant political documents age viewer should watch C- the nation in the National ever written. And, of course, SPAN regularly as opposed to Coaches Poll an unprecedented he went on to serve his coun- other media, such as network five times. Unger is a mem- try as President and Secre- news or talk shows, what would ber of the National tary of State and all that it be? Federation's Committee on Dis- stuff. But I really would be cussion and Debate, the au- interested in talking to him Brian: I’d say, first and thor of "Second Thoughts" and about that time period and foremost, information. I a Debate Consultant to both what he really thinks of open- don’t watch this network all NBC and ABC. In every elec- ness. I’d like to think that the time. I watch it, I as- tion since 1976, he served as he would be very big on sume like our other viewers, Chairperson of the Associated today’s openness. But I’m not when I’ve got the time and Press National Presidential so sure, because those white when I’m interested in the Debate Evaluation Panel. In males back then had a strange event. And I’m constantly 1992 he also assumed similar view of what equality was. saying to myself, “I did not duties for United Press In- They said one thing and did know that.” Which is not al- ternational and the New York another. I would want to know ways the case when I watch Daily news, and appeared on what they were really think- regular television. There’s more than thirty national me- ing in their own minds. I a lot of sameness there, while dia shows. In a recent na- would like to interview we’re able to cover things tional poll of leading inter- Tocqueville. He’s probably here that are unusual and that collegiate coaches and debat- the most quoted individual are not seen anywhere else. ers he was named both the Out- that I find on a constant ba- So I’d say, first and fore- standing Debate Coach and the sis on both sides of the po- most, information. Secondly, Outstanding Debate Judge of litical fence throughout all get a pulse. You can get the entire decade of the 1970s. these books I read for some sense by watching what In 1982 he received an honor- Booknotes--pops up all the the pulse of the political ary gold "key" from the time. I’m not sure why, but system is at any given time. Barkley Forum of Emory Uni- since then, I’ve gotten into Thirdly, I would watch to find versity. He recently appeared his background extensively and out who is next. We start as moderator-host for the dis- we’re going to pursue it be- covering people when they are tinguished NFL National Fo- yond just the obvious. We very young and very inexpe- rensic Library, a comprehen- may try to retrace his steps rienced and just getting sive instructional videotape in 1997 after the campaign is started. And we don’t cover series supported by the Brad- over. When he came to the them because they are flashy ley Foundation. A substan- United States in 1831 with his or exciting or say something tial component of that Series friend Gustav Beaumont, they crazy, we cover them because was "Unger and Company," a set were here to study prisons, they’re there. And, all of of McLaughlin Group format and they ended up going al- the sudden, four or five years tapes in which Dr. Unger led most throughout the entire later, bingo, they are ev- top national collegiate de- United States at that point, erywhere, they are stars. An bate coaches in often contro- over a period of 9 months, enormous number of people you versial "debates about de- and then he wrote Democracy see on the establishment me- bate." He is universally rec- in America. He was only 25 dia today started here, qui- ognized as one of the most years old when he came here. etly, at our Journalists distinguished figures in When he wrote the first book Roundtable ten years ago. American forensics. he was 29. And the second book would be when he was Jim: Let me paraphrase a than anything else, had he not about 34, 35, in 1840. I’d question you posed for writ- been in the Constitutional just love to know how he did ers on Booknotes about job Convention and taken notes-- it, because he was so young satisfaction. And I was sur- which were not released until and so perceptive. He wasn’t prised at the answer by a 50 years after his death--we always right, but he was very number of authors who said would not have any accounting perceptive at the time. And that they basically hated to at all of what happened in- it would just give me a bet- write. Former President Nixon side the debate, because at ter sense of why so many people said it was an “ordeal” for the May-SeptemberCaricature meeting of byquote David him Levine today, - Used other with than permissionhim to write. Bill Buckley 1787 in Independence Hall the the fact that his words are said, “I don’t really like to windows were bolted down and worth reading. It’s just a write.” Well, are you enjoy- everything that happened in- good story. ing your job now? Do you side was a secret. So, give like what you do? him credit for that. But you Jim: You asked an author, also give him credit beyond Susan Garment, on a Booknotes Brian: I love what I do. that for having a tremendous program, and I’m paraphras- I think the only frustration amount to do with the Feder- ing now, but if you had to is that things do not change nearly as fast. And what do enough to play the violin. “C” student. I’m not a good I mean by change? One of the I’ve never tried it. It prob- one to ask about grades. If things that I care about the ably is more romantic to me I were to grade what we do, I most is “openness.” And ac- than anything else, that’s why would say that, on a day to countability. And we’re not I even mention it. It’s an day basis, I would give a top there yet. We’re not as open enormous amount of work, and grade to what our field people as we should be and people in I suspect that’s not going to have been able to do in the public life are not as ac- be something people would be way of providing a quality countable as they should be. clamoring for, is to hear my television picture and audio, It’s somewhat sporadic. I’ll first violin solo. I would out in the field. They do say it again: there’s too much be happy, and this is not par- quite well in the studio, money in government and poli- ticularly in another life, be- that’s nothing, but it’s the tics. Of all the things I ing a radio talk show host. hardest thing in the world is see, I care for that the least. Doing the same kind of inter- to pick up your equipment, put There’s a lot of duplicity, viewing that we do here but it in trucks, move it out into saying one thing here and an- on a daily basis. Having a the field, hook it up, bring other thing there. But yes, daily audience in a less pub- the picture back here and get I like what I do a lot, even lic environment. The thing it on the air. That whole though I’ve had a lot of years about radio is that you don’t process, which involves a huge of this, and those concerns have the same kind of public section of our company, gets don’t seem to go away fast visibility you have on tele- very little credit for what enough. But, you know, again, vision. I like that anonym- it does and it does it every I can’t control that. My re- ity, and I could do that eas- day, day in and day out, anony- sponsibility is very small. ily. And, you know, I haven’t mously, and that’s our I try to keep my eye on the given it much thought but I’ve strength. And all the rest ball, and that’s the “Mission found myself enjoying busi- of us could go away. That’s Statement,” and not divert ness here much more than I the backbone of what we do. from what we came to do. This expected to, the business side The young folks that do that is a big, vibrant country that of things. And I speculate, here, in age range between 23 will, hopefully, figure out that if I had to something and 33. There are probably all the other stuff very much else and if I believed in the 100 people devoted to that in its own time. product, I would be more in- process, from the time the terested in a business than I product is decided on until Harold: If you had your would have thought coming into it gets out to the public. choice of any other profes- this. That process deserves an “A” sion, what would it be? In grade. one of the Booknotes conver- Jim: I know it’s diffi- sations it came up that when cult for you--how do I want Nixon had been asked the same to put it?--to grade yourself, question and he replied “a grade the product of C-SPAN, Jim: Let me close by ask- sportscaster.” Is there some- but you recently asked Presi- ing you: on reflection, at the thing else you’d be interested dent Clinton, “when does his conclusion now of the inter- in doing? message get through the best?” view, would you tell us what Was it the State of the Union you feel was the single most Brian: Well, I like mu- speeches, the Oval Office cov- important question which we sic. I used to play the drums erage, private interviews out didn’t ask you and what your when I was in college, and I on the hustings? Would you answer would have been? made money at it. I thor- grade all your programs oughly enjoyed that. I would equally? Are they all “A+?” Brian: I don’t think like to Or do you feel differences in there’s an obvious question. terms of your own assessment It sounds like I’m pandering of your various programs? How to your enormous ability to I've had a letter would you evaluate them com- ask questions, which was ex- paratively? Are you equally cellent. I don’t think there drafted proposing satisfied with all of them? is an obvious question. You’ve to both President given me an opportunity to say Clinton and Speaker Brian: I’m almost never everything that I would want satisfied. That doesn’t mean to say in this kind of situa- Gingrich that they I’m exasperated, I’m just al- tion. Always the most frus- sit down right now most never satisfied, and I trating thing for me and I’ve and have a tele- suspect that’s pretty help- been interviewed hundreds of ful. Some of what we do here times in the last 16 years is vised conversation deserves a grade of about a that reporters who I respect for three hours. “D+.” Once in a while we’ll will come and it’s hard for get an “A,” but, you know, I them to realize the importance didn’t do too well when people of the others who have made were grading me. I’m kind of this place work. It’s easy know enough and be capable a middle-of-the roader, I’m a to come in and focus on me because I’m the spokesperson and Jim. for the network. It’s diffi- cult if we don’t realize in this country that philan- thropic works are good and de- serve credit. There’s always a great suspicion on the part of the people in the print press who have written about this place about the board members, the cable television executives who have given their time and effort and money to making this place work--for very little return. There’s been a lot of suspi- cion that they did it for pub- lic relations, that they did it for political intrigue. None of that’s worked very well or they wouldn’t have been reregulated in 1992 if that was their motive. And in fact, we wouldn’t be here today, in spite of what people might think, if individual human be- ings owning individual cable television companies hadn’t said, “put that on our sys- tems and leave it on.” Be- cause it doesn’t move money to the bottom line and no one ever quite understands that. They think it just comes out of thin air and that it ought to just happen. There’s no rule in the American system, no law that says C-SPAN has to be here, or that it should be carried by anybody. That’s the way I like it. But at the same time, I wish people un- derstood that it got there not because of one person or even the people that work here. It got there because of some ma- jor cable television execu- tives who committed to keep- ing it there for a public who said, “we want it, we watch it, and we don’t want it to go away.”

Jim: Brian Lamb, in the Booknotes Fifth Anniversary tape, you said that the goal of each individual Booknotes episode was what we want the viewer to say at the end, “that was worth the time spent.” I’d like to say, for all our readers out there, I think for them, and certainly for us, this has been worth the time spent very, very much. Thank you.

Brian: Thank you Harold