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Transcript of Interview with Danny Lee
Asian American Voices in the Making of Washington, D.C.’s Cultural Landscape
DC Oral History Collaborative
Narrator: Danny Lee Date of Interview: August 20, 2018 Location: Mandu (453 K St NW, Washington, DC 20001) Interviewer: Crystal HyunJung Rie Audio Specialist: Dave Walker
Biographical Information: Danny was born in Washington, D.C. in 1981 to Korean immigrant parents. He grew up in Falls Church and Vienna, Virginia. In the 1980s, his mother ran a deli in Old Town Alexandria while his father worked as a CPA. While he was in high school, his father passed away, which led his mother to open an American Chinese franchise restaurant in Reagan National Airport. He helped out his mother’s business with his friends. After graduating from the University of Virginia, he worked as a paralegal in a law firm where his sister used to work in D.C. Through working at the law firm, he met someone working at a restaurant, Oceanaire Seafood Room, and took an office manager/event coordinator job at Oceanaire. He was trained by chef Rob Klink on both managerial and culinary side of food business. As his mother’s lease at the airport ended, the Lee family decided to open a Korean restaurant in D.C. He left Oceanaire to join the family business. In 2006, the Lee family opened first Mandu in Dupont Circle and later opening a second Mandu in Mount Vernon Triangle. In 2017, Danny, along with Scott Drewno and Andrew kim, successfully opened CHIKO in Capitol Hill and has been expanding his restaurant business. Danny has been playing an important role in bringing chefs in D.C. together through Anju, pop-up events, and creating a unique chef community in D.C
Description: Danny Lee discusses growing up the child of immigrants with influences of Korean culture, food, and language. Lee discusses the impact of his father's early death on the family and his mother's restaurant enterprises after his death. Lee discusses his culinary training, running a restaurant with his mother, and collaborating with other Washington, D.C. area chefs to form the Fried Rice Collective. Finally, Lee discusses his emphasis on providing a healthy work environment and the impact Korean and Chinese fine dining has made in his life.
D: Danny Lee (Narrator) C: Crystal HyunJung Rie (Interviewer) DW: Dave Walker (Audio Specialist)
C: Today's date is August 20th, 2018. It's 11:43 am. We're gonna be interviewing Danny Lee of Mandu and CHIKO. We have Dave Walker, who is an audio specialist, here. We're gonna be interviewing Danny Lee about his experience growing up in Washington, D.C. and Northern 2
Virginia and his experience of opening Korean restaurants, and later Korean Chinese restaurant. Can you tell us about where and when were you born?
D: I was born in 1981 in Washington, D.C., so I'm the one of a few individuals who lives in the city who was actually born in the city. At a Columbia Hospital for Women, which is on Foggy Bottom and it's funny. Now it's a hair salon. Like the basement is like a bunch of businesses and my friends has a hair salon there. So I was getting my hair cut there a couple years ago. I was like, “isn’t this building used to be a hospital?” and she was like, “yeah, how'd you know that?” “I was born here.” [laughs] so born in D.C., but my family raised me in Northern Virginia kind of started off in the Falls Church area. And then for the majority of my childhood, I was raised in Vienna and then yeah, so we've, my mom still lives in Vienna.
C: then when you're born in D.C., do you know where which neighborhood did your family live?
D: So they lived, they lived in Arlington at the time but the hospital that they wanted to, you know, go to when I was born was the D.C. hospital.
C: Do you have any memories of Falls Church?
D: Yeah, I mean I still, you know, I still go there. It's not that far outside of the district. So, you know the neighborhood that we grew up in still very similar to how I remember it when I grew up. I just drove by there the other day. So it's a very kind of classic [pause], you know, you know small family neighborhood Falls Church. It looks like straight out of The Wonder Years or something, you know, just very, you know, I think it was built in the 50s or 60s, you know, and there's like a local grocery store across the street, one gas station, but then surroundings just as a little neighborhood, but then surrounding you can see all these big mansions and everything else but that little housing complex that we grew up in is still there.
C: then how was the neighbor? Like, can you describe the neighbors
D: the neighbors? Ethnic. Yeah, it was, you know, I think back then, it was it was, [pause] you know definitely, I wouldn't say low income housing but you know, between like low income and middle class, you know neighborhood where especially you know, immigrant families could rent or purchase a home and raise their families in, still have access to good public schools, you know still Fairfax County which even back then was one of the best public school systems in the country. But yeah, I remember, you know, the neighbors to our left were from India. So I remember going to their house all the time and eating curries when I was like 4 and 5, you know, you know, if few Korean families, Chinese, Latino, it was very, very multicultural. I think Falls Church in general is, you know, Falls Church is pretty multicultural and ethnically diverse.
C: then how long did you live there?
D: So I was in Falls Church, maybe till I was like 7 and then we moved to Vienna right near Wolf Trap (Hotel) that definitely was not as diverse. But again, you're not talking about a significant 3 distance in between the two so the natural neighborhood I grew up in was a really close community. There's a community center with the pools all the kids know each other all the families know each other, you know, it's very community-driven. So, you know, we were one of the few non-white families living there, but I don't, [pause] even looking back on it now, you know, we weren't treated any differently or anything that, it was very welcoming neighborhood.
[00:04:53]
C: Then when you're living over there, did have conscious about your Korean heritage?
D: you know, when you go to school, you know, the elementary school I went to was you know, almost a hundred percent white, you know, and you know, when you become aware of it when people automatically assume you're Chinese, you know, and you know, when you're little kids that's what you, especially back then in the 80s. That's what, [pause] Chinese was equated to Asian. You know, like what's, there wasn't a huge, and also back then Oriental was used, you know, so that's when you became aware of, you know, your own identity is like, you know, I'm not Chinese, I'm Korean and you know, I think even back then, you know, you're a kid and you're dealing with other kids your age. So it's hard to fully grasp, you know, that but looking back on it, you know, I think that's where I first started to kind of identify with my own individual heritage.
C: then did you hear about Korea from your parents?
D: Yeah, and also we have relatives here and we had relatives visit us from Korea. My parents took me back there. I have one older sister as well. They took us there when I was like five so I was pretty young my first trip back and my grandfather had a farm just outside of Seoul at that time. So my earliest memories of Korea are actually not the Seoul we see now with, you know, all the lights and stuff. It was waking up with the roosters, you know, at the crack of dawn picking eggs, you know, hiking in the mountains like very rural, you know, Korean country life was my city.
C: Do you remember the name of the city?
D: The name of the farm was called Jin-gwan but it's has since been, [pause] you know, it’s basically just outside of Seoul, basically in Seoul but it was, you know, one of the more under developed areas because it was kept to be this like beautiful kind of nature preserve almost, so we, or my extended family after my grandfather passed decided to sell it to the government and kind of use that money for everyone to open up different businesses or whatever or set up a college funds and stuff like that. So yeah, now it's, I think very developed but back then it was a you know, but, you know around there, we still have like a family like burial ground and stuff like that so. 4
C: My family lives right outside of Seoul. I grew up in Ilsan. So yeah, I was curious about that story. Then do you know what kind of farming that your grandpa did?
D: well, you know, they had when I went in I was basically turned into just a small farm where you know, they grow some simple vegetables and easy just had like a chicken coop to get fresh eggs every morning. You know, my father would tell me stories of their original business. My grandfather's original business, he had a soju distillery, so they would, you know distill booze. I don't know for how long they did that but that's kind of what was on that land for a bit and then they just converted it into just a stray kind of farm so.
C: so you had that our family genealogy of food business [laughs]
D: I guess so [laughter].
C: then growing up in Northern Virginia, did you eat a lot of Korean food at home?
D: So I pretty much grew up in the Woo Lae Oak kitchen. So Woo Lae Oak is a Korean restaurant, it used to be like the golden standard of Korean restaurants outside of Korea. So or even in Korea. So the first one was started by the Chang family with 장 family in like the 1940s or something in Seoul, they have two branches in Seoul. Then he decided to open up in the U.S., so Pentagon City, they really [unintelligible] there starting from the 1970s and that was to this day, I think that will be the best Korean restaurant that's ever existed in the United States. It was amazing [pause] and they [pause].
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C: What kind of food did they sell?
D: Everything. They had barbecue but they also had a full menu that huge banquet room downstairs. They even had the old school rooms you sit on the floor and do more of like a formal style like royal set, but we were really close with the owning family. So we will go there two or three times a week and I'll just kind of run around the kitchen, the bartender always make me like a virgin of strawberry daiquiri, but I grew up, you know eating at a Korean restaurant that was very successful in America, you know, and one of the best to have ever existed. The son of the main owner was operating the D.C. location. Then he became ill and passed away at very young age, probably in his late 30s. And then after that, the business kind of became very chaotic because the, he was the only heir, so a bunch of extended family kind of took over the business, they decided to buy and open up another restaurant in Tyson's which is still open as Woo Lae Oak on [unintelligible] 7 and then the original one shut down. They had a fire and they shut down and honestly, it's it hasn't ever been as good as that original location. It might just be nostalgia for me also because you know, I grew out there but in you know talking to other people who grew up here, you know, they remember how good that restaurant was.
C: Were the customers mostly Korean? 5
D: Yeah, but you know and you still had [pause] you know, if you went during the week you would still see some, you know, American businessmen, you know, taking out Korean clients, you know, to meeting their you saw some American families from going there. But yeah, it was predominantly Korean, you know, that was also before Annandale really became Annandale with like a Koreatown or Centreville, you know was even destination. So that's pretty much the only place to go get [unintelligible] constantly await. I mean it was it was it was awesome.
C: then did you eat some, did your mom cook at home at all?
D: My mom was always, she was always a phenomenal hook. So, you know when I was very young her friend opened up a Deli in Old Town Called Pica-deli, they bought it by these two British guys, and they named it Piccadilly off Piccadilly Circus, but they wrote picca wrong was p-i-c-c-a-. To this date, I have no idea why they did it that way. But you know, it was really small store in this little kind of shopping plaza in Old Town and you know, they would have you know, chicken sandwiches, turkey sandwiches, roast beef. So I grew up [unintelligible] my mom would roasted beef at home, bring it to the deli, and they had a slicer there, so they’d slice it to order, and then as we got older she sold her shares to her friend just to raise us but my mom was always a phenomenal home cook, obviously love cooking Korean food from all the recipe she learned from her mom and her upbringing and you know, we always had a lot of, Korean families love hosting, you know, love getting together and cooking and the way I always say it is that my, my mom would always bring food other people's houses and they would welcome it. But every time we have people over no one dare to bring food to my mom's house, you know, and that's honestly how we ended up naming the first restaurant Mandu because you know our family bonding time, you know, yeah, we did some [unintelligible] like watching TV or whatever, but for the majority of the time since we were always going to someone's house for like a dinner party or hosting, we always needed mandu. So we just sit around the kitchen table just folding dumplings, you know, for hours.
C: During holidays?
D: So yeah, just on a nightly basis. We pretty much be folding dumplings. So my mom jokes around that I was way better at folding dumplings when I was like six then I am now so. Technically you have smaller hands, you know.
C: And it's really hard to make it pretty.
D: yeah, you know, it takes it takes practice about having smaller hands definitely helps.
C: then did your father cook at home?
D: Father was an accountant, he was a CPA, so he, [pause] he loved barbecuing and he loves steaming crabs. So, you know as the advantage of growing up in D.C. and growing up just outside like being raised just outside is you know, my fondest memories are driving with my dad to the Wharf and to get live blue crabs when they were in a season, taking them home then 6 and he LOVES steaming them cooking them just beer and it was always Miller MGD Milling Genuine Draft was his beer choice for steaming crabs, old bays and then we will just eat on the floor. We just put newspapers all over the floor and just have a crab feast, you know on the floor of our kitchen. So that's what he loved cooking. He loved like American-style barbecue like burgers and stuff. And you know, we would also go to the parks where they had like the girl setups. You just bring it back a charcoal or brings when galbi or bulgogi and roasted it up there. But yeah, he was a, he was not in the business. He was a CPA.
[00:14:50] C: then did you spend a lot of time with your parents growing up? or
D: you know, they both worked a lot. So, you know again my mom had the deli at first so on summer vacations, I'll go to her store and I would [unintelligible] delivery by making deliveries with them. Or I'll just hang out at the restaurant or the deli. Sometimes I'll go with my dad to his office and like, you know who give me some busy work like entering in like a check ledger like into his computer system. Obviously, the secretary will look over it. But I'll do that. I'm not you know, I would also, I was very active in the neighborhood. So, you know my friends I would bike around everywhere but during the school year, you know, my mom started, she got her real estate license, so started showing homes and stuff. So she got really busy at one point with that. So I will come home and you know, my sister and I were kind of like latchkey kids so we will come home and they're always be some food around or my mom would buy like frozen burger patties or something. We would just make yourselves at home. But you know, we always had family dinners. They LOVED going out to eat. So, you know, we will try to go out to eat at least once or twice a week to different restaurants and stuff like that. So we kind of grew up in like a very [pause] I don't know, I guess restaurant-friendly household.
C: Can you describe a little bit of Pica-Deli? It was in Old Town.
D: Old Town, Alexandria so, you know, it's just that was open 6 days a week Monday through Saturday from like 10 a.m. till 3p.m. something like that. So it's just a lunchtime business. So local offices or workers would go there and get sandwiches. We had, they had a delivery program that they ran themselves a little, you know people call in orders [unintelligible] delivery. But you know, very simple bakery they sourced bread from a local bakery. It was a good business, you know, they were able to, to be a success there for, for years up until they decided to sell it. But I think that was that was my mom's first foray into food business was doing that.
C: Do you know why she started that business?
D: Her and her one of her best friends even to this day. They she's a phenomenal cook as well and they thought about you know, having fun together and cooking together, but you know bringing in some extra revenue stream for each family. They thought it was easy, the hours were basically when the kids will be at school. So they didn't really have to worry about you know, babysitter's or anything like that because again, you know, it's good kids will be at 7 school. On Saturdays, we would just go with them and you know, they were able to make it work again. They did a lot of stuff at their homes than brought to the restaurant like baked off all the chicken, turkey, roast beef and they would source bread and then they would order chips and sodas stuff like that. But you know, it's just to have more money, you know to raise the family.
C: What kind of food did you bring for your school lunch?
D: Well, I ate at school a lot. But occasionally, I would bring sandwich. I love this like super basic dry chicken sandwich that says basically just baked chicken breast. I was really plain eater growing up really, really plain. So basically, just be bread and cold chicken, cold baked chicken breast and then I would have like classic mashed potato chips and put them on top of the chicken and the smash them up in between the bread. It was like the dry sandwich in the world, but I loved it. So that's all I ate. Other than that, you know at school, I would I loved I loved Fried Chicken day. I loved steak and cheese day. It was just [inaudible]. I don't think they [unintelligible] this anymore because it’s way unhealthy but I loved hamburger day. Yeah. Yeah, I think growing up. I never brought Korean food to school and I don't know if that's because like my mom was afraid that I'd get like picked on or anything like that. It could have also been because I didn't really have a palate for Korean food growing up. You know that young as well. I want two hamburgers and French fries every day, so.
C: then did you have any, like, what did you want to do when you're growing up?
D: What's funny is that the first memory my parents have me saying what I want to do is I wanted to be a baker. I loved making cornmeal cookies. I don't know why but I was like, once a month, I would make cornmeal cookies, you know.
C: Since when?
D: Seven or eight something like that. As I grew up, you know, especially being a product of Asian household. I told him I wanted to be a doctor and then I switch to like an engineer then I told him I just wanted to be in business, businessman, I think so. We all saw the movie Pretty Woman, which I can't believe they allowed me to see as like a ten-year-old or whatever [laughs] Richard Gere's character in that movie. He has his line where basically she asks some like what he does and he's like, yeah, so he's like, yeah, I buy businesses and then I break them up and sell each individual part, you know, like when I was like “that's what I want to do.” My dad's like “WHAT?” I was like I wanna do that but yeah, I mean, I guess for the most part I said, I was going to be a doctor pediatrician I think is what I wanted to be but that obviously didn't happen [laughs].
C: What is pediatrician?
D: a children's doctor.
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[00:20:55] C: then did your parents kind of directed you or navigated you to be more interested in becoming a doctor?
D: You know, I think sometimes it's helpful to be the younger sibling because more pressures on the older sibling to kind of lay the groundwork. So my sister, you know got into Ivy League school. She went to Dartmouth and was already on a good track so that definitely relieves some pressure off of me, but you know, we're always challenged to do the best as we could in school. I went to a magnet school that called Thomas Jefferson. The full name is Thomas Jefferson High School for Science Technology. So it's like a really dorky school, you know, back then we weren't as nerdy as, I guess, it appears now. [laughs] It's also a lot harder to get in now. It’s a public school, but you got to take a test to get in and stuff like that. And it's in Alexandria. So they take kids from all over the county. So some of the children had like an hour and a half commute to get to the school each way. And I remember being really hesitant because just peer pressure Junior High sucks for everyone. Junior high is like the most awkward time your life physically, mentally. There's a lot of peer pressure and, you know, everyone wants to be cool, you know, and definitely it’s not cool to say that you're applying and then going to this high school. But ended up being the best thing I've ever done because I did.
To this day, I met this group of friends that I am, [pause] they're like my family, you know, like my brothers and sisters. So I think getting into that high school if you're a grew up in this area that's like especially like in the Asian community like, ‘oh wow.’ It's like getting into Harvard, you know, so that gave me some leeway. And that school is great because once you get in, they really allow you to be creative with, you know, they focus on science technology, but they also have a great humanities program, music program. And they want you to be really creative as you can [pause] on your own figure out what you want to do. So, yeah, you know that, it wasn't, I had a lot of pressure from my parents [unintelligible] get into that school, then once I was there, that was pretty much it. And then, you know, again, my sister was in college at the time and then at the end of my freshman year my father passed away. So then my mom had to figure out basically how to keep on paying for her daughter's Ivy League school education while her son was finishing a high school, mortgage blah blah blah, so she got back into the food business, you know, when that happened and that's kind of how sit our whole family kind of on this path to where we are now. It wasn't like a decision that “All right, let's just do this.” It was out of necessity well back then.
[00:24:20] C: then how did your, if you are comfortable sharing, how did your father's passing, like if changed your life?
D: [unintelligible] changes everything especially when you're that young. For me, you know, I saw the strength of you know, my mom to succeed or nothing. Like there's no choice but to succeed to do whatever it took. So she, at one point, her, my aunt had like a it was called One- Stop food shop. It’s basically like a generic, like an independent 7-Eleven type of place, so they took over that and they're trying to recreate the deli atmosphere there. But while also having 9 like a convenience store set up so you had like, you know, it looked like a 7-Eleven, you know, but that's a tough business and it was in Herndon, Virginia at the time. They got robbed all the time. So it was, it was hard. But it started like every day, she'll get up at like 5:00 get all the sandwiches ready because you have to be open really early there. She won't get home till past midnight, you know, she's doing that every day just every day, you know, I would help out when I could, my cousin will help out when he could, my sister took a term off of college to spend time with my mom and help out. You know, we're all just trying to do what we could to survive, you know, so I think that really shaped a work ethic in me was [pause] you can’t be lazy. You know, you can't take anything for granted, you know, so I think that's just seeing what my mom had to go through to make sure her kids were in a good place, you know, is amazing. I don't think that's like a some of that's attached to any specific culture or ethnicity. You know, I think if you had something like that happen no matter what culture you’re in, it gets all right, let's do this, you know.
C: Do you think that experience kind of bonded the rest of the family together?
D: Yeah, we're already very close, but, I mean, obviously that brings the remaining members even closer. Also, causes a lot of stress, you know, because you're still grieving you're still doing, you know, you never fully recover for something like that, you know, but you're able to move on at some point and, you know, with that there's a lot of growing pains of how talk to each other, boundaries, you know, there a lot of [unintelligible] challenges, you know, but, you know, we got through it.
[00:27:16] C: and after that your mom opened Chang (Charlie Chiang Kwai)?
D: So my mother and father met as graduate students at the University of Illinois Urbana- Champaign. Again, there weren't that many Asians going to graduate school in the U.S. in the 70s, you know early 70s. So the alumni group was very strong like no matter where they went around the country. So one of their alumni members is a local restaurant chain Charlie Chiang and he has a bunch of restaurants around this area. And when Reagan Airport was remodeling to what it is now, they wanted a lot of local businesses to do the shopping in the food service there. Again, it was a pre-9/11, so you didn't need to have a ticket to go through the security gates to, to go to the shops. Reagan was built to be, because they had the metro there, it was built to be shopping and dining destination. Even if you weren't going to the airport to fly. That was the original plan, right? So that opened in (19)97 he won a bid to get a Charlie Chang's there, but he didn't want to put the money in and operate it. But he just wanted some of the franchise that you can get the royalty fee. So another friend contacted him and they're like, “all right, we just raise some money we can do this.” They did it. My mom wasn't happy with her friend at the time. So she basically got some money for my family and bought her friend out and then we were basically cooking like a generic Chinese American restaurant, you know, sesame chicken, you know, all that stuff.
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But we weren't, it wasn't very successful because we were forced to buy everything from his central kitchen and those costs are inflated. There's only so much you can charge so she basically won an argument against him like, “look, I don't want to purchase anything from anywhere. I'll pay you to do royalty. But let us do everything on our own. We'll make our own food.” So she started doing that so she bought in everything raw, made thing from scratch and was better, and then she started to put some Korean stuff on the menu, right? So I think this is before people really knew what Korean food was. This is (19)97 and so she started to put like bulgogi on the menu, mandu, japchae and stuff like that. And then all these guests were like, what is this, you know, “oh, this is Korean barbecue, you know, sliced red meat in Korean marinade. These are sweet potato noodles, you know, stir-fried with, you know, vegetables and it's great.” and then she became a success there. So from (19)97 to 2006, that was her lease term there, she was the only business independent or chain, that didn't go under or didn't sell or do whatever. She was the only one in the entire airport that that survived.
Again, you had 9/11 in between them, which they're shut down for a month, you know, there's you know, there's a 9/11 fund that helped out the businesses there, but she was able to make it work, you know, so growing up, so that was, she had that the last two years I was in high school, so my friends and I, we would work there every Saturday and Sunday during the morning, so we'll get there open this door, you know, leave at three or four and then one of my friends actually was like a manager there. So every day after school, he would go there, and then, you know, work the dinner shift and close up, so my mom could go. Yeah, I have very fond memories of that that Restaurant. And again, she was able to find a way to be successful there, you know. In a way, I kind of miss that restaurant was very small, very easy control, pretty much guaranteed clientele. This is an airport, those got, the beginning was hard, but she found a way to develop her own system there, you know, doing food that she's never cooked before, so basically getting raw chicken and cutting it in a way where you could bread and fry, so you get that perfect, you know, fried chicken ball shape that you see like an orange chicken or something like that, you know, she was doing it from scratch. She found a method. she found a way to do broccoli beef, egg rolls, you know, it was, it was really cool to see, so.
C: How did she learn how to make these food?
D: She's just really, she's a really really talented chef. I mean she's able to taste something and immediately. “Okay, this is what's in it.” or smell something like “all right, this is this this and this.” She would read a lot, you know, she would, she would ask around. You know, she would you know, we had some family members who used to work at Chinese restaurants. You know, she like right, “how do I get this this way?” like “oh, try using this sauce or this ingredient.” and she’d experiment it, experiment with it at the restaurant and when she was happy with it [unintelligible] will put on the menu.
C: Then why do you think she was the only successful person in the airport?
D: Work ethic. You know, it was, it was working every day not paying this, you know, for someone else to do it, like she was able to do it, so she could have brought more money home. 11
It was out of necessity. You know, she had to work there every day so that she would make more money, you know, [pause] on also the food was just really good and, you know, she had like all these like famous regulars, you know, and to this day. I think she doesn’t realize how many famous people loved her store but person like Jesse Jackson went there every day every time he went through, traveled through that terminal. He was there eating. Like Robert Duvall, which is like hilarious. Jackie Chan, but she was like, oh, yeah, like the only famous person I saw like ever serving there was a DJ Tanner from Full House, Candace Cameron I was like “oh my god, we got DJ Tanner’s here!” [laughs]
C: [laughs] Did she pay you?
D: Oh, yeah. Of course, we took, we took everything. Yeah, so basically, I would, I would be there every Saturday and Sunday and then my friends would fight each other to see who will come with me because we got, my mom just pay us cash. It was like $50 cash, you know, to work there. We will get there around like 9:30 or 9. So we’d have to leave home around 8:30, you know, as a high school student like you want to sleep till one, but you know, they would make, that's a lot of money for a high school student. It was also around like homecoming or like spring formal time where they also would want, because they want to get enough money to pay for their like suit rental or anything like that. So yeah, you know, she'll pay us like little cash, you know, to do it.
C: then did you guys also help out cooking part?
D: No. So the way those restaurants are set up is, it's like steam tables in the front. So everything's cooked in the back. So we had a couple woks back there fryers, so you just build it for the guests. So, you know the most extensive part would be like someone got like a Teriyaki bowl, we’ll put like the protein [unintelligible], we’ll put rice in a bowl with Teriyaki or the protein on and then, we would steam vegetables like in front of the guests. And then we would like laid out some teriyaki sauce over it. That was all she trusted us to do, but we had a kitchen staff in the back that would like him. So you'll yell back, especially when it got really busy you would your responsibilities is yell back, you know, I need more chicken I need more this and this they will send it out.
[00:35:04] C: You went to UVA?
D: Yeah, so [pause] I think half of my, more than half of my graduating high school class went to UVA. So it's basically like it was very easy transition. My first year roommate, cause we’re required to live in dorms, is my best friend in the world. We've known each other since we were five, so that was easy. And UVA is great, but that's also when I realized that I was not cut out for academics in school. I really disliked school. Yeah, I hate school. So I went in with a ton of credits. So I was able to basically coast by, so I was a biology major and I guess I was pre-med at first semester, but so after that, I think the first year and a half, so the first three semesters I got rid of basically all the main requirements I would need and then I was able to take like I 12 took like African drumming and dance. I got an English course got like writing about the drug culture and stuff like that. You know, I took a lot of like really fun class that I actually went to. And the other classes like literally if it was like a big lecture class. I'll go in the first day get the syllabus and [unintelligible] what you show up for and it was like small groups associated were it was like, you know, 10% of your grades attendance, like “Well, if I ace all the tests, at least I would be 90 then cause I'm not going to make the attendance, right?” Of course, I wouldn't ace all the tests. But so there's, to this day, like I have no idea what my final GPA was, but I was able to graduate early, graduated a semester early. Again, not because I was like, oh, yeah, that's an [crosstalk]. I just couldn't bear the thought of going to another class and even then I didn't know, like I had never met my advisor and I was like one of my friends was like, “hey, I think I have enough credits to graduate.” I was like, “how do you know that?” “[unintelligible] your advisor.” I was like, “I had no idea that I had advisors.” So I was able to find it was the last day to register to see if you could graduate early, so I knocked on this guy doing he's like, “who are you” and I was like, “Hi. I'm Danny Lee. I think you're my advisor.” He’s like, “you’re Danny!” He’s like, “there's, I got this list of students and you're the only one who had never met before.” I was like, “that's me.” It was my senior year in college. So I was like, “Well, can I graduate?” He looked at my records, he’s like “as long as you pass these classes you're done.” I was like, “Sign me up.”
C: I had the total opposite experience in college because I came to the States, when, for undergrad, and I was the one I would always go see advisor and ask questions because I couldn't understand what's going on.
D: Yeah, but I mean, of course, you know, it's a new country, a new thing will [unintelligible]. Yeah, I can't imagine doing that. You know, for me, it was more about the social experience, you know, I was in a band in college, you know, I would help out occasionally like some of my friends had worked at restaurants, also manage like bars and restaurants. I'll go and I kind of see and hang out. One of my friends have like started a catering company down there, so I'll kind of see like the back end there, but I knew back then that that's I think especially with what my mom was doing at the time, one career path was, am I gonna take over that business or do something different but I knew, at some point that my like would take me in the restaurant business. I don't know why, I just knew it. Yeah, so I graduated and then I try to convince my mom was like, yeah, like, you know, the band's making enough money where I think I can pay rent, you know, for this, at that last semester. I was going to hang out. She's like, “no.”
C: What did you play? like what instrument?
D: Guitar. So my mom she has her master’s in musical composition and she's also a phenomenal piano, pianist as well. So, you know, growing up she was really involved in church, so she was like director of like church choirs stuff like that. She was also like a member of this choral company. That was the first I think Christian-based chorus to be invited to Moscow and sing right after the Cold War ended, like in 1990 or something like that. So I remember she like made this trip over there with his huge chorus, it was a huge deal and some of us were scared 13 were like what's going to happen, but they like, you know, were embraced and had this great tour there, which is awesome.
So my sister was just like violin prodigy growing up, so she actually got into Juilliard as well. So she had a choice between Juilliard or Dartmouth, she chose to not do music anymore and went to Dartmouth, I grew up playing cello and some other instruments. I loved all instruments. I never focused on, I guess cello was my main one, but they got me a guitar and I was like this is it, you know, so I just play guitar every day, when I was like, maybe fifth grade. All I did was play guitar. That's all I did. So then when I got to college, you know, I met some friends and then we start a little band and we start playing it like frat houses and then bars but we're playing enough where you know, Charlottesville back then it was very cheap. Like my rent was $300 a month, you know, so if we played six shows in the month, you know, I think we each, that would be enough for each of us to get have like twelve to fifteen hundred dollars a month. That’s all you need. We hit up the dollar menu at Wendy's, you know, every day like your college student, doesn't matter.
[00:41:00] C: Didn’t you wanna become, continue your band?
D: We thought about it. [laughs] we suck. So my sister went to Georgetown law after she graduated from Dartmouth and then she got a job, well before, so right after she graduated, she was a paralegal at this huge law firm in D.C. She met a lot of friends there. And then I remember seeing like well, you know, maybe they'll be a good like temporary job when I graduate, so she was already in, she already in law school? I think she may have already graduated law school by the time I had graduated college. So then she helped me get a job at the place she worked at after she graduated from college. So I was basically a paralegal at this huge law firm for about a year and a half and I was living with my mom so saved a ton of money by doing that, met a lot of, you know people, like recent college graduates trying to figure out their lives and just doing this, most people ended up, you know, taking the LSAT and applying for law school.
But again, I just wanted to get some income and contribute what I could to the family and also save some, but then through there, one of my friends at the time, her boyfriend was working at a restaurant called the Oceanaire Seafood Room, which is still around and that's downtown near Metro Center. So he was a manager there, and it was right next to our office, and we will go there sometimes or happy hours and stuff. So then he and I started talking and he knew like on my background in restaurants and he was like, “hey, you should get back into it. Let me know.” [unintelligible] I just couldn't bear the thought of going into an office anymore. I just, I just hated it. So I started talking to him, I was like, “all right, what's available?” He's like, “all right. Well, we have this one position called to the office manager / events director.” So basically, it's almost like a 9 to 5 job where you come in the morning. You basically like help organize like the office works, of the back office work. So invoices, HR payroll, there's a corporate office in Minneapolis back then, so you had to ship stuff back to the company, and then you're also the private events coordinator. So you would spend a lot of time answering 14 phone calls, making phone calls, organize all these events, but you got paid like $8.00 an hour, no benefits and you got a commission off the, off the private events, which is the incentive to really book.
So I remember taking my mom out to dinner and I was like “Hey, I'm going to quit the law firm.” She's like, “oh, yeah? What you gonna do?” I was like, “I'm taking this like $8.00 an hour job at this restaurant,” which is like, I thought she was gonna freak out and she was like, “Okay.” You know, this is like in 2004 I want to say, so I start off there and I loved it. During the during like the lunch rush, you know, I would come up and help out, and I learned a lot. The chef there at the time, his name is Rob Klink. To this day, he’s kind of like my mentor. And he and I clicked immediately and he kind of brought me under his wing to in the kitchen, show me how it works, you know, especially in a big operation like that, like all the different stations, how you expedite, which is basically what most chefs do is basically direct the kitchen when to cook, so everything comes out together and hot. It was also during that time where a lot of managers either left or gotten fired, so I was promoted very, very quickly, and through that, you know, they kind of put you to like a kitchen boot camp, where your there early in the morning you help break down fish, you know, all the meats, you know, do all the prep for the vegetables stuff like that. So you really learn a lot of really good knife skills, just general cooking technique, which was invaluable, you know, but then basically I was a manager at that restaurant.
And then my mom's lease was ending in 2006, a new company took it over, and they wanted her to stay but they wanted her to change into a Panda Express. But with that, you know, you need to reinvest into the business. So they said like, “it would be a total of $500,000 to reformat the restaurant to Panda Express.” We’re like, “are you kidding me?” And they wouldn't, they refuse to budge on that. So one of my mom's managers at the time knew this family that had a restaurant called Mount Everest with in Dupont on 18th Street. It was a Himalayan and Nepalese restaurant, and they weren't doing well. My sister and I both live in the city at the time, and we’re like “oh, that's a great area.” So we met them and made them an offer to buy them out, and that's where Mandu was created in Dupont Circle.
[00:46:00] C: In Dupont Circle?
D: Yeah. So my mom shut down the airport restaurant, like July of 2006, end of July. We took over the restaurant August 1st, you know, we had extensive construction, you know, whatever and then we're open in November. At that time, I wasn't sure what my role is going to be, so I was still with Oceanaire. I knew I had a future with them, they're expanding, so I was trying to like position myself to be kind of like on the corporate side. Yeah. I thought was exciting. I was young. I was 25. I was like, yeah, be cool to fly around, like different restaurants every week. You know, I wasn't married, nothing to tie me down here.
[unintelligible] my thought at the time, so my mom was just supposed to do it with my uncle, and I was just kind of going to help out and consult. I remember my sister sitting me down one night for drinks. She's like, “what are you doing?” I’m like, “what?” she was like, “you have to 15 quit, you know, you have to, this is our family business. You have to do it.” I was like, “No, I don't want to.” you know, she's like “You have to.” so I was like, “all right, so I thought about and talked to my mom.” She was like, “yeah, [laughs] that would be nice.” So I put in my notice, of course, they were super understanding, you know, and then yeah, I opened a restaurant. I was very conceited, “Yeah, I just came from this huge restaurant. I know what I'm doing.” I knew nothing. so we opened and it was really tough. Like there's a lot of expectations of what people thought we were going to be. And you know, our fault was we weren't ready, you know, we didn't know how to prep and cook for that volume of people consistently. So that's you know, we made a lot of mistakes, you know, the first six months. I was like, “I don't know if we're gonna make it.”
But you know, we figure some things out. So the way it started, my mom was in the kitchen then I was out front running business. I had jeans like a blazer on every day, like talking to people but then very, you know, I knew how to get back in the kitchen like actually collaborate with my mom, you know, just to hire some help but also just to do it. So then I place my managers put more responsibility on them to run the front of the house aspect, and then my mom and I started really reformatting the menu for what we wanted the restaurant to be. I think once you open a restaurant, especially if you're the first Korean restaurant in the city, you listen to a lot of Korean guess and like “oh, you should do this. You should do that.” or “My mom made it this way.” “Oh, the restaurant in LA did this way.” I'm like, “oh, yeah, yeah. I mean it's a good idea.” But you don't have an identity then you know, and then my mom and I kind of just sat down one day and we were like, “all right, let's start from scratch and let's just do what we do.” We thought about the recipes that my sister I remember eating growing up. You know, it's a family restaurant. Let's tie it to our family, you know, like screw what everyone else thinks what Korean food should be. Let's just have it how we grew up. and then that's what we did. And from there on, it just kind of took off.
We had this awesome energetic staff that, you know, worked their butts off for us, you know, and believed in the concept. They weren't Korean. Some of them, you know, I think we had a couple, but majority of them were just like these, you know, young kids, who, all went to college, but didn't know what they want to do with their lives. To this day, some of them manage some of the best restaurants in the country, you know, which is hilarious. They started off at this tiny Korean restaurant and now they're like huge standard-bearers, you know, and this industry which is amazing to see. I owe them a lot of, a lot to where we are now, because they've kind of laid the groundwork to allow us to get to this point.
[00:50:13] But again, I was really tough. That was the toughest part about doing [unintelligible] doing any ethnically-driven restaurant is that you're going to have guess whether of that ethnicity or have eaten at one restaurant, you know, that's whatever. They think they're experts because of that one visit or because of someone's family, you know, cook it this one way, you know. Korean food, especially it varies regions from region to region but also from household to household. There's no standard way to make kimchi. You know, there's no standard bulgogi marinade. There's no standard bibimbap. There's no standard gochujang recipe. Everything's different. 16
Also people think of Korean food is being Korean barbecue, you know, especially when we opened, you know, people were like, “where the grills on the table?” like that's such a small percentage of a Korean food is, you know, they also expected Korean restaurants to have like old Korean ladies, you know, not speaking English be your servers and like rudely pointing at things, you know. I remember when we first opened really, oh, yes, it's very like whitewashed Americanized Korean restaurant because there's no Koreans, my server was white. And I was like, “that is a racist thing to say!” You know, idiotically racist thing to say because the food won't be Korean because the person serving it to me isn't Korean. We're in Washington D.C. the capitol of the United States of America. I'm sorry. We don't have an old Korean lady who can’t speak English as your serve.
C: wearing hanbok (Korean traditional clothing)
D: Yeah, you know like that to me is amazing. The comments, which I think that, because I refuse to do that, you know, we had a full bar program, you know, we had like hit music playing loudly, you know, the menu was formatted in a different way than any other Korean restaurant had done, you know, the descriptions were actually on point, you know, we had vegetarian options. You can modify dishes. We have gluten-free options even back then, you know, and people saw those things and were like, “oh, this is Americanized.” like “What? because we're making it more accommodating to anyone? Why is that, are you saying that Korean people aren't accommodating? I don't understand why that means we're fusionizing or Americanizing, whitewashing a restaurant.” you know, but again, those like early reviews even to this day we get it like, “oh I was immediately taken aback because you know, the staff wasn't Korean.” you know, or we have like, you know, someone who, you know kids who taught English in Korea for a summer, you know, and they come here then they're so excited to come here which I love right but then they'll go to our hostess. You know, let's say the hostess is African-American, right? So oh an-nyeong-ha-sae-yo (hello in Korean) and starts speaking Korean, and my host is like,” so how many? two for dinner?” and they're like, “oh you don't speak Korean?” “Sorry, No. We work at a Korean restaurant. Sorry. I can tell you all about the food, you know, but I just can't speak Korean. I'm sorry about that.” You know, they're all those things that immediately people pigeonhole us because they see that and I think it's a really narrow-minded view how restaurants work out, how ethnic restaurants work, and what guests expectations are, you know. Like for us, you know, we do our best to pay homage to our culture and to promote Korean culture. I think the best way to do that is to get as many people in the doors as possible and to do that is to be as unintimidating as possible and like a lot of people aren't used to Korean restaurants are afraid to go there because they don't think the staff will able to convey to them what food is. you know, or have a certain restrictions that they won't be able to get that across and that's where we come in.
Again, this was in 2006, a lot more restaurants have opened Korean restaurants around the country that opened, kind of taken that approach as well. But honestly, I can say I think we're one of the first to really try to modernize a Korean restaurant in the states to be more progressive with having American clientele, you know, we're in the city where on and I would 17 like we're our business model wasn't going to be, “Oh, let's have Korean people from Virginia and Maryland drive into the City and eat here. That's how we'll make money!” None. We have to focus on the non-Koreans, food will still be authentic in Korean but the service unapologetically not, you know, so I think that's where some people have said, “Oh, well how Korean is Mandu?”
[00:54:58] C: Have you considered opening a restaurant in Annandale or those areas?
D: No. Annadale’s, in any Koreatown, no, because there's always this price war that goes on there. That’s why you see a constant turnover, like look at Annandale for lunch. You can go to several spots and get like a jjajangmyeon or a bibimbap at $3.99, $4.99. You cannot survive by doing that, also, it worries me eating at places like that because what quality of meat or vegetables or whatever are you buying in to be able to afford to sell something for that cheap? And that's a really bothers me about, you know,
I had a kind of caused a controversy a couple years ago because you know, these local magazines or restaurants always do Cheap Eats list, you know, and more often than not the majority of those lists are concentrate on ethnically driven restaurants, right? Not just Korean, Ethiopian, you know, Hispanic, Latino restaurants, or whatever, Thai. They never talk about like, you know, here's a good cheap pizza place or cheap burger place, you know, there might be one or two, but is generally like there's some like what, the danger of keep on promoting it that way is that people will get in their minds that Korean food traditionally is a cheap food, you know, which is wrong. Korean food is a very beautiful food, and done correctly, like even to this day like our menu price, people are like, some goes like, “oh man like this pretty expensive.” I’m like, we're getting fresh vegetables brought in every day, you know, we're getting fresh proteins put it in every day, we are hand making a 1000 dumplings every day, you know, the amount of money, it takes to do that is absurd. So when you look at our menu costs, that's actually not a lot, but we're fighting this preconception that the food should be cheaper. Like why is bibimbap $5 everywhere? You know, so it's because they're using terrible vegetables, frozen meat, you know, and it's and bad rice, it doesn't make sense to me. You know, but you know, I think it's really dangerous that, again not just Korean food, but a lot of ethnic food is always labeled as being cheap.
Even Koreans! I'm not kidding, even Koreans are like, you know, “well, I can get all you can eat galbi at Honey Pig for 27 dollars.” “Yeah, but it tastes gross. Seriously, it is grisly. But again, that's their model, you know, they're very smart. They're very, very smart and successful, you know, but that's not something I, culinary-wise, would ever do. Again, it's not just in this area either like everywhere, you know, like go to LA Koreatown. It's absurdly cheap, you know, and generally it's very good. But like say let's say I decided to open this like modern Korean restaurant in the heart of Koreatown, LA, I would fail because all the people's expectations of what we were being like, first of all, too expensive, will be served in different manner than they're used to, you know, and then you're also dealing with restaurants that've been there for decades, you know, those are the stalwarts, you know. What we like to do is move to areas that 18 where we can have more fun with the menu and had more fun promoting the culture to a new demographic of guests who may not know, may not be Korean experts, you know.
Yeah, but sorry, that's just something I feel like very strongly about is pricing and Korean food or ethnic food in generals. Why is it cheap, you know, again, and that forces restaurant operators to buy inferior product in order to stay within a certain price point, you know, and that really, really bugs me in the wrong way, but you know, I think now people are starting to realize it like, you know that you get what you pay for, you know, there's this really great Korean barbecue restaurant there opened up in New York called Cote. That honestly, isn't that expensive but they get in incredible, incredible beef and they butchered in house. They dry age in-house and they don't really marinate it. They're just they're just showcasing how good their meat is that they're getting in and he's bringing out this butcher board for the raw meats put on the grill, you eat it and you’re just like, “oh my God, it's so good!” for not do anything to it besides just butchering it down very cleanly, you know, it's amazing and it's, that takes guts, you know, and but it's paid off, you know, they just got a Michelin star. They're constantly one of the best restaurants in the country now, and they took this gigantic risk though. It could have backfired on them, but it's good. But if that concept was opened up ten years ago, no way! People would be “oh my God, I'm not paying for this blah blah blah, but now people like, “all right!” Now we have a some, somewhat base of Korean knowledge across the country I think, and most like populated areas where you can be a little bit riskier. That's we did with Mandu menu when we first opened up the first Mandu, we had like 10 options, you know, then now, you know, we have a few more options, but we were able to put on more adventurous dishes.
[01:00:53] C: like, what?
D: Okay, so we first opened we didn’t have ddeokbokki (rice cake) on the menu, you know chewy rice cakes and like a gochujang sauce and my mom thought that you should ask about this later. My mom thought that Americans weren't used to eating those rice cakes and choked and like died at a restaurant. [laughter] Like I’m like, [laughs] “Mom, they have the same teeth jaws as us, like it's, they can do it,” [laughter] but she's like “No, no die.” So, all right, so I made it for the staff one day, you know and they're like, “oh my god, this is so delicious!” like checking to see if anyone is choking, no, everyone survived, So it was immediately a hit, you know. And again, it was a spicy dish too and she was afraid that people will be, I’m like, “oh no bring it on.” you know. So we did that, like ojingeo bokkeum, like a squid stir-fry, you know, we put that on the menu, and again she was like, “you know, I think Americans only like fried calamari. you know, this isn’t fried, it's sautéed, I don't know how people gonna like it because the textures different.” I was like, “Let’s just do it.” Again, people loved it with our banchan (side dishes), you know, we got a more aggressive intervention with our side dishes, you know, it's progressive now, we do specials, you know, I just changed many up a couple weeks ago here where we have like juk, which is like a really Homestyle Korean porridge. That has been selling really well. We put jjajang (black bean paste) on the menu now, which is a Korean Chinese hybrid roasted black bean paste. That's definitely a very adventurous dish but it's crazy how much of that we go through a night now. 19
C: I'm actually really excited for jjajangmyeon (black bean paste noodle). Cause when I first moved to D.C., my sister and I brought my all our stuffs from New York where we stayed together and then we carried with, like taking Megabus, and then after we settle down, we were like, we need to have jjajangmyeon because we just moved in. We're looking for Korean restaurants and we went, actually went to Mandu in Dupont, but back then, you guys didn't have jjajangmyeon. Yeah, so we had galbi and soondoobu (spicy soft tofu soup), but it was so comforting to eat Korean food. (laughs).
D: Yeah, jjajang we put on the 18th Street menu about like two years ago and then a year ago that was caught on fire. So we're in the process of rebuilding that but then we started to do it here. So we make our kalguksu, knife-cut noodles. So we use those noodles for the kalguksu dishes but also for the jjajang or you can also get jjajangbap (black bean paste rice). But again, that's how kind of we reformatted [unintelligible] jjajang, you either get seafood or like a pork version. We wanted also create a vegan version. So the base is completely vegan and we found a way to, so we fry up some tofu, mix it in, so you can get actually a vegetarian judge on which, not many places can do, so, you know, it's been, it's been fun, you know, pushing the boundaries of our menu as we think people's palates have become more adventurous.
C: Why do you think the American palate has become, being more acceptive of other?
D: I think it’s just natural, natural progression. I mean, you know, if you think about how long it took sushi to be introduced, you know, in this country to where it is now, [unintelligible] it’s just not just California rolls, you know, like it's, that took decades. Korean food didn't really become established in the States on a mainstream level may be 90s, you know late 80s, again on a mainstream, were there Korean restaurants not a lot, but it wasn't ever in mainstream American culture. Right? Whereas, now you go to Safeway and you see kimchi, you know, so it's going to take some, we're still not there yet. But again, just going into this Safeway, you know in this building, and you see gochujang and kimchi on the shelves is crazy to me, you know, but that that means that it's commonplace enough to, for a big company like that say, “all right, we're gonna sell this because a lot of people are buying it.” you know.
[01:05:37] C: Then do you think Korean food will have some similar progression like how Chinese like American Chinese is created and like sushi rolls.
D: You already seen that. I mean, there's a lot of fast casual bibimbap places in every city know and that's where you're starting to see that take place because it's [pause] it's not a traditional bibimbap in the fact that you have people making their own, right? and you have, so it’s basically the Chipotle model, you know, you pick out whatever you want. They will just scoop everything into a bowl and then you get it, right? you know avocado isn’t like a traditional Korean bibimbap vegetable, you know, corn isn't, typically, you know, they have all these vegetables they’re trying to cater to that model, which is fine, but you know, I think that's where you're starting to see a lot of American influence in that model. And I get it, you know, 20 because a lot of customers are like, “yeah, I want avocado instead of, to provide the fat, you know, instead of anything else or different proteins. And then, you started to see all those places of kimbap as well. But like massive ones almost like the burrito style, right? And they're making these huge kimbap roles which with whatever filling guest wants, you know, so, you know, that's fine.
A lot of American restaurants you're seeing kimchi whatever as a side or gochujang glazed ribs, and it is great, you know, because it's providing more opportunity for a wider clientele to see nuances of Korean cuisine, you know, kimchi is becoming this huge thing, where like a lot of like some of the best restaurants in the world are trying to replicate this Korean dish, you know, in their own way. That's awesome.
C: And how did you open this location?
D: So we were about four years into the original Mandu and the things are going well, and you know, we thought it was time to expand, I had a friend who is now one of my business partners at CHIKO, Andrew. He was with the matchbox food group at the time. He started that company, they got approach from landlord of this building to do one of their concepts here just to work with them, but then he told them about what my mom and I was doing at Mandu, because he was a regular bars and good friend. So they didn't tell us, just like their team came in and ate at Mandu and they loved it. So he sent me an e-mail me like “hey we ate at your restaurant last night, We would love to have you at this new development city of Vista and I was living literally a block away from here at the time and this this area was nothing, was just his building and nothing. It was very crime-ridden, you know, no one came for lunch, dangerously at night, it was very sparse, there were just parking lots, and the parking lots were a lot of like drugs and prostitution is happening, you know, so but that was attractive to me for some reason [laughs]. I was like, “oh, we could be kind of these pioneers in this new area in the city, I live down here so I was like, “all right, you know, let's try it!” So we explored it a bit and then, you know, took several months to get the lease negotiations down, but we got to a point where you know, we were happy enough for us. So we signed, you know, I did all these projections like opening numbers and we didn't come close hitting them. Again, I was worried that this one would fail. [pause] But we were just really stubborn with some of the things we did and we just kept building and building and building and now, you know almost eight years later, you know, we're kind of like the neighborhood spot down here, where, you know, I think we've built a really loyal following at this location. It's been fun. It's been good. Yeah, it was, everyone always says, “oh, the second one's easier.” I’m like, “no, it's just, even harder than building the first Mandu.”
[01:10:15] C: why is it harder?
D: your expectations are greater, you know and people's expectations are greater because the second one you should know what you're doing by then. You know, it’s usually more expensive, you know, this was a new building, where the one was really quick kind of, you know, tear down some walls and [unintelligible] new equipment, this one we had to build the hood 21 system, putting all the HVAC, electrical, plumbing, everything. We built this mezzanine, a lot more money goes into it. It was definitely a lot more stress involved with it. But yeah, you know, again we were able to go, as all these new buildings and more office buildings came in, that really helped.
C: When did that start to happen?
D: So we opened up here in January of 2011. I'll say it took a good full year for us to really, for me to not be freaking out every day that we're gonna close. It took like a year.
C: So how do you, like, power through that year? because you don't know.
D: You just work. and you just work, in this business, you need to talk to every single guest that comes in, not like in like a stiff, you know corporate way, you just like, find out who they are, you know, like [unintelligible] their neighborhood, you’re visiting from out of town, you’re office worker down here, whatever. So I demanded from my staff, you know, that I want to learn three things about each person that walks in these doors. You know, I'm going to test you on that later, you know, so in the bar, you know, my staff's office, like the bartender's a really great. They really built this awesome bar following, you know, and that's it. Well, that’s what I'm really proud of what we did with Mandu for a Korean restaurant to have this like crazy bar scene, you know, is funny to me the Korean restaurants don't typically have like a bar, you know, usually like the whole restaurant is a bar, like you have tables, you drink soju. Like we actually have a really good bar program here, and you know, Friday, Saturday night's you have, [pause] the bartender's are crushed like three deep at the bar, you know, and people trying to jostle for position for hours, you know, and it's a credit to the service they've been provide is, you know, just being that neighborhood style service where you normally, they know what the drinks are. It's like the cheers of this area and that's what we're going for and it worked.
But again, like that took a lot of stubbornness of never closing early, you know, being open everyday full hours and then going after each guest, [unintelligible] our life, which it did, you know, like if I saw guys walk in, look at the menu, ask some questions then leave, I would freak out. Like, “why weren’t you able to tell them stay? what did you say to them that caused them to leave?” You know, so yeah. We were just very, we just worked our butts off to make sure that everyone stayed. You know, because the food, actually, that was the easier part the food here because we already gone through all the problems with 18th Street opening. The food actually started off your brain, you know, it was just getting customers in and making sure that we had that style of service where they want to come back, and they do this. Because 18th Street was rolling by that point. You know, we had our own clientele there, the neighborhood was strong, we're doing well there, and this one I was like, “oh yes, even better.” It was just like nothing. you know, we had lunches were zero people came and we're sitting here, you know, and I was just like, “oh my god, dinner [unintelligible], all right now, we're going to have good dinner!” And we had like five guests. And then we do a late night menu here, you know, so we’d be paying for late-night cook, a dish washer, or staff, and we just received, you know you this, you know, so I’d invite my friends in, to sometimes drink free to look like people are here, 22 so people walk-in by when you were open, and then, again, we never, ever, ever shut down early because if you do, people don't know when you can be open, when you're not going to be open. So that's why people love our late-night menu here because they know that no matter what, no matter what, we're going to be open. You can get food up until this time, you have drinks up until this time, no matter what, you know, so, you know, I think that was part of the reason why we were able to succeed here.
[01:14:57] C: And you started Anju program?
D: Anju was something, so the D.C. chef community is really tight knit and close, even more so back in, you know, background like 2011-2012, those before the restaurant boom in D.C. before there's a restaurant opening up like every day here, you know, so there are, you know, a lot of chefs would hang out all the time after work, including me. So I wanted to do something where we would have chefs come in and just cook with me on a Friday night. We just have fun. Because that's what we usually would do late night anyway. Like everyone got off work, we have some drinks and we may have someone's restaurant, it would always change. It’s late night [unintelligible] get hungry, so the chefs, we'll just cook up some food and we all cook together just eat. We’re starving so that's kind of an idea I brought up. So we did these night cook Anju, I start with my friend Jonah Kim who’s a Korean American Chef was in Baltimore. I think he wanted to do something different. So he and I started the first one together and then all these chefs came by, and “oh, this is awesome! We want to do it.” So I was like, “all right. well, let's do it once a month then.” you know, so we did the first Friday of every month and it turned into this huge thing where like, I think we started at 11 o'clock on a Friday night and people starting at like 9:30 would start waiting outside, like a 150 to 200 person line, is going down the street. So we will start feeding, we will make a little fun snack, start feeding line. I bought this gigantic panda outfit so I dressed up one of my servers. [unintelligible] will push a cart with all these snacks and just hand out, people take pictures with the panda, and then we'll just be this crazy night where we would fill up the restaurant, and the guest chef will do like four or five dishes. From our side, we would change up the menu every time, too, so we were able to experiment a lot.
Again, it wasn't Mandu, we weren't held back by having the traditional authentic home-style Korean food. This is, we could do, Anju really is like basic just bar food. So we're able to really experiment and go crazy, and come with these really cool exciting dishes that, you know, I still have a list of them to this day that I want to bring back at some point. So we did that for about a year, year and a half, and end up stopping because it turned into this like just stressful production, where it was a Friday night, we'd have to shut the restaurant a little bit early to prepare for it. [pause] I like things when things have like a very organic feel to them. It doesn't feel forced. and it started to feel a little bit forced with chefs whom I wasn’t really good friends with, they would like, their PR people would contact, “oh they want to do this.” I was like, “that's not fun. I don't really know them.” The whole part of it is having fun in the kitchen and 23 cooking together. I didn't know someone, not fun. It started to get just crazy. There's too many people, so we stopped it.
But through that, we got some opportunities, so there was a Wall Street Journal article that talked about right when we were doing it, just by pure coincidence, a lot of restaurants around the world starting to have these chefs collaborative events, you know, either like take over and run restaurant or chefs were invited to cook at this restaurant in Japan or whatever, all these people moving around and cooking together. So this one reporter did a story of that included a really extensive piece about Anju, what we're doing here. So then at the bottom, he just mentions some other restaurants around the world that do events like Carousel in London. So few months after, they contact us like, “Hey, we're on the same Wall Street Journal article and our concept is basically we have chefs around the world do one to two week residencies at a restaurant and that's the dinner menu for two weeks. So we would like you guys get there.” So my mom and I flew to London and we cooked and did, Mandu was in London for two weeks and we did Mandu menu for 50 people a night in central London, which was amazing.
So again, you know doing stuff like that really kind of opened a lot of doors, you know, for us as well. One of them also being, what you know, my new restaurant group, which is, with the name of the group is the Fried Rice Collective, but CHIKO is the name of the restaurant and part of that happened through collaborations, like my co-chef Scott Drewno, he was at The Source by Wolfgang Puck for years. He was the opening chef and partner, you know, and then, I convinced them to leave to start this new group with me and then our other partner Andrew, and part of that came through just the D.C. community and hanging out and cooking together. That's how I was able to open up that new restaurant.
C: I’ve been pronouncing your restaurant [crosstalk]
D: Everyone says CHIKO (cheeko). So Chinese Korean [crosstalk]
C: Cause I know it is Chinese Korea, but I just said CHIKO (cheeko). [laughs]
D: Yeah, everyone says CHIKO (cheeko). It’s not Cheenese, Chinese. [laughter]
[01:20:09] C: And you mentioned about how D.C. chef community is pretty close, like can you tell us a little bit more about that?
D: You know, I think in any, no matter what industry you're in, it's always nice to talk to someone who's in the same industry because you can compare your jobs, right? You can talk about stories or get advice. “How do you do this?” “Well, I had this problem. How would you recommend I navigate this problem,” right? The restaurant community is like that but it's even more real time, you just got out of the shift, you know, you got to do the same thing again tomorrow, different people. It's like “I need help now,” you know, or you know what, let's just like decompress because it's a very stressful time you get through a dinner, just one dinner 24 service is very, very stressful. So, you know, you need to just relax with someone who has gone through the same thing you just did, you know, just a mile away from you or whatever. So that's kind of how it started. Everyone just kind of getting together for a beer, nothing crazy just like talk about the night, and just decompress, and have some fun tell stories, but that's kind of how it evolved. Everyone is, starts hanging out, the group gets a little bit bigger and bigger, as well. “Oh, I just met this guy. He just moved down here or he just opened this restaurant here, you know, let me, I want to introduce him to everyone.” You know, that's kind of, everyone just hung out. It's also really helpful. Like “hey, I just ran out of some beef. Can I go to your restaurant pick some up,” you know, and when you do that, I'll bring some food over from Mandu [unintelligible] this for your staff, you know, whatever. Umm, you know, that's kind of how organically started and then we all just hung out, you know, and then all of our spouses would meet each other and they had fun, we go on vacations together and stuff like that. Like it's, it turns into a family. Well, I can't tell you the number of occasions we've all been, where there's been like maybe, you know, ten of the ten chefs of like the best restaurants in the city, you know, we just go and run a beach house somewhere, everyone picks a night to cook, you know, something like that. It turns into like more stressful thing and like being at the restaurant.
C: Like a competition [laughs]
D: Yeah, “we gotta do better than last nights.” [laughter] So you know, but it's fine. It's all in fun like, you know we all rent jet skis or something. I mean, just hanging out, again just support, we all will support each other.
C: Do you think it would have been possible in other cities like New York?
D: You know, so we have a lot of friends who are chefs in other cities and they'll visit here and they'll cook with us during one of those events and they're like, “this is awesome! It doesn't happen in our city.” D.C. is very unique. [unintelligible] we've had chefs from New York, Boston, Chicago, LA, San Francisco, Seattle, everywhere. They come here and they see it and they're like, “this is very unique.” But like “this is awesome. I really wish my city was like that.”
And we're really proud that our cities like that, you know. Again, if someone needs a recipe, we will send it to them. You know, someone’s short-staffed, we will go and help them out like ourselves or will send someone. You know, [unintelligible] there is this Facebook board, “hey, I need some of [unintelligible] tonight” “okay, I got them,” I call some guys usually off, and just sent him to you. You know, looking for advice like, “I need a new lease,” “Send it to me. I'll take a look at it for you,” you know. So just finding any way to support each other is good because we think that the better the city does the better all of us do. To this day, that's mentality that we have.
DW: Why do you think that happens in D.C.?
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D: Geographically, why I think how small geographical D.C. is really helps, you know, one of the things about D.C. is small in general and then, for the most part, I have been talking about one, a section of one quadrant in Northwest is a very small geographical area, right? And again, this all started like everyone started hanging out like, you know in 2010, 2011, 2012 before the really big restaurant boom. So it's less of us, even now like, you know, the city is kind of exploded with restaurants, but we also hang out. You know, again, this is a really small city. Like New York, I think there has been like only Lower Eastside chefs hanging out, you know, obviously, you know, Hell's Kitchen chefs hang out, whatever. LA is just everywhere, you know, is too spread out. It's just, it's a very unique situation with how dense it is and the number of restaurants that are opened. And also I was just trying to fight for the city's reputation like not being this generic Steakhouse city, you know, like every, [laughs] every like national publications like the New York Times, especially, likes to shit on D.C. as being like this, “oh, another Steakhouse is like this and like, you know, I spent 36 hours in D.C. in this way.” Like, “oh my god, you went to this place? There's so many better restaurants to go to.” Constantly, you know, so that's what drives us, you know, and again, over the past few years has happened, you know, almost every top 10 list in the country has usually a one or two D.C. restaurants on it.
[01:25:33] C: Why do you think D.C. is becoming such an important city for restaurant industry?
D: I think a lot of operators have seen opportunities here. Say, out of town operators have seen opportunities here because of the economy here. The D.C. economy, generally, is pretty stable because of the government unless there's a furlough. But for the most part, you have a large section of residents here who have a steady income that's not associated to [unintelligible], you know, so we're cycle. That's pretty safe. [pause] Rents were pretty reasonable, also like the city is expanding at astounding rate, you know, well not expanding is gentrifying, expanding great, you know, and there's a lot of people taking advantage of being the first kind of group to sign a lease, you know, Southeast or Southwest other parts of Northeast because it's cheaper, but they see, like they are following real estate trends, right? You see younger families with disposal income buying houses in Brookland, for instance, right? Eventually that's gonna become a very hot dining destination, so if you can open up a restaurant now there and are able to pay rent, and kind of get by for the next couple years, and then it's going to explode you're in a very good financial situation, you know. And again, there's so many areas in the city for that to happen to, that's exciting for a lot of restauranteurs, bar owners, and just regular business people to do it.
Another social side to that is, you know, how many long-time residents are being displaced because of rising prices, and I think D.C. right now is, it's just happening so fast, I think the government is trying to grapple with that as like, you know, what restrictions do we need to put to make sure that, you know, D.C. stays D.C. [laughs]
C: But it's also always changing as well.
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D: It's always changing, but you know, you can't take the soul out of the city. I think that's the danger sometimes, you know, I live like near U Street, I live on 16th Street and you're seeing that neighborhood changes crazy. I walk in on 14th Street. I'm just like, oh my God, it's crazy to me. So yeah,
C: so you opened CHIKO in Capitol Hill? Why did you guys choose that neighborhood?
D: Because of the space. So one of my business partners Andrew Kim, he was part of the Matchbox Group. They had this small one off called D.C.-3, which is a hot dog, like take away restaurant and the closed. Well, he left the company, he approached me two years ago was like, “hey, I left the company. I started, I wanna start something new. I wanna do something with you and I want to do something like a really fun new Asian concept.” I was like, “sure.” and then as you start talking, I was like, “I need, I want another chef with me so that we can collaborate on ideas,” and I got Scott because Scott and I've always talked about doing something together. So then once the three of us on board, Andrew was like “hey, the hot dog place is available.” And I know that area, that 8th Street was always really intriguing to me ever since I remember graduated from college, I always loved hanging on that street. For the concept we wanted to do, I was like, “this might be perfect.” So we all took a look at it and we all saw the vision, and we're all of us were like, “let’s do it!” Again, it was already mostly built out, what we had to do was change some equipment around, cause we wanted to open up something very fast. So we have picked the new space would have been almost a year. Whereas for this one. We signed the lease and we were open in three months, two months, you know, so it was that. The space was the space was available and that's why we decided to take it.
[01:29:50] C: You guys won Rammy award this year.
D: Yes. We opened in July of 2017 and immediately got a lot of attention and accolades I guess so, so we're like a weird concept of restaurant where no one really knows how to describe us because there's fast casual which is like Chipotle and Sweet Green and stuff like that. And then there's a restaurant like a full service restaurant. We're kind of like in between, you know, where hasn't really exist before but for most part, people think we're a fast-casual restaurant so it's weird for us to, was difficult to grasp, you know, what it is, but then we started getting all these reviews. So Tom Sietsema, the Washington Post food critic, he listed us as the eighth best restaurant in the city, gave us three stars, which is, he rarely gives out three stars, let alone for concept like ours, right? Where there's you order at the counter, you got a number, you sit down at whatever seat, and then like an uncomfortable wooden bench on a metal table, you know, Washingtonian gave us three stars. And then we got, the James Beard Foundation lists, made us a semi-finalist for best new restaurant in the country, you know, which was crazy to us and that opened up that put us on the national map immediately. And then yeah, then the RAMMY Awards just happened here for best new restaurant. So we got best new restaurant, you know, which we didn't think we had a chance to do that, but we got it. So that was awesome. 27
So yeah, that was a, it was a crazy first year with that. But again, It helps, so there's three of us just two chefs which also helps, you know, we're able to kind of create a concept and we worked, worked hard, you know, but we created this really fun exciting concept, that again staying to what Scott's always done with his career in Chinese food, and my career with Mandu, we're able to put our own spin on what people think Korean food or Chinese food should be you know, again, it was presented. You know, we have two bowls. There’s no plates. We have one small and one large one. There’s stainless steel bowls and a tray. Like everything is presented in those, you know, [laughs] like there's no other plate-ware. That's it. So we want the food to kind of speak for itself. It’s really loud, there's neon everywhere, but what we do.
C: I really love CHIKO.
D: Oh great!
C: Yeah, cause when I just saw the sign, I was thinking like Chinese Korean, jjajangmyeon, or those typical more traditional sense.
D: Tangsuyuk (Korean Chinese style sweet and sour pork)
C: Yeah, and then I went to the restaurant and then I saw the menu and like, “oh, this is like [crosstalk]
D: Half Chinese, half Korean.
C: Yeah, and like I get to see more of you're like creative side, that's not bound to your more traditional.
D: Yeah. That's what we're like, you know, Mandu will always be Mandu. Mandu will always be like paying homage to Homestyle Korean cuisine or like kimchi jjigae (stew) and you know, ddoekbokki and dakjjim (braised chicken), stuff like that. And you know, I don't want that to change. There's a need for restaurants like that stay true to tradition but when CHIKO opened, we were playing out the CHIKO menu, like I was dying to, cause like I talked before, like people always like to find, the first time how much they criticized Mandu being Fusion or Americanized a whitewashed, right? So if I did something here, “Oh see?” You know, but I was like, “Screw it. Let's open up a new restaurant where I can do it and then not be pigeonholed or I won't be held down by the category of tradition or authenticity.”
C: And even the kimchi jjigae over there, compared to Mandu is, the Mandu’s kimchi jjigae is similar to how I ate at home, and CHIKO’s kimchi jjigae was like, the meat was perfectly cooked.
D: Yeah, so that that was one of the few, so that dish not on our menu right now. We're bringing it back in the winter. We get yelled about that all the time, but that's one of the few instances where you see like Scott and I kind of [unintelligible] Chinese and Korean, kind of melt 28 into one because it's a pretty standard kind of like kimchi jjigae, not a standard like, you know, it's a pretty traditional kimchi jjigae base, but then the pork, we twice cook, so we braise with a bunch of Chinese aromatics and spices of paste or press, and then sear off, and pour the kimchi base over, so then all those aromatics and stuff release into the broth. So then you have always liked the subtle Chinese influence into this traditionally Korean dish. That was a lot of fun to work on that dish. What’s funny is that, we started playing all these dishes for CHIKO and start getting all this attention. My mom got like super competitive. So like, you know people were taking pictures of all these CHIKO dishes and stuff. So she would like start making new dishes here and she would send it to me, she would text it to me like, “hey, put this on the Mandu social media, Mandu Instagram put it on.” “Okay.”
[01:34:56] C: [laughs] How does she feel about CHIKO?
D: She's really proud of it, you know, she's you know, she eats there pretty often and she will be very honest with me. If something's not to her liking she'll be like, you know, I think should change this and I'll listen. I don't know, she's really proud of it. You know, she's, my mom's a really, really tough critic of food. She really, [pause] again, its well-deserved like she's a great palate but she's like highly judgmental of other people's food, like incredibly, you know, so there's something you know, she was like, “I just don't get it.” You know, “well, that’s good.” “That's, I just, I just don't get it. It’s too salty.” You know, she has a blender palate than I do. I think most like older people have don't excel as much as, just natural. So everything's always too salty for her, you know, but um, she's really proud of me like, you know, the most recent time she ate, she was like, “this is the best food, you guys right now are doing the best work you've ever done,” which I concur. Scott and I change the menu pretty often. We always have specials going on, so there's something I really want her to try and go call her and be like, “come in and try this.” Every time she comes in, Scotts like “oh my god, she's about to rip us apart.” And I’m like, “yeah.” what she does.
C: How do you navigate your time between Mandu and CHIKO?
D: You know, operationally, I spend most of my time at CHIKO. With Mandu, I'm still like, you know, in the morning. So basically, my schedule is like, in the morning. I will get on emails, and Mandu they write notes, managers write notes every day. So look the notes from the night before, look at all the numbers. I'll write emails like do we have any big parties or any events coming up? probably with staff blah blah blah.
Most recently, we just made a pretty significant menu change here. So I was here a lot just making sure that they're cooking the food correctly some of the new dishes. And then my mom's here, so she, you know, has been kind of overseeing that. CHIKO's not open for lunch, so I usually head into CHIKO. Scott and I will do a lot of like administrative work there, menu changes. We are opening in San Diego soon, so there's a lot of work we're doing to set that up. We're also opening another CHIKO in Dupont, so we're really busy. Just trying to, kitchen, equipment ordering, design, staffing, everything. It's nuts right now. 29
But um, [pause] so our jobs that kind of changed it in more of, the only way you can expand is if you remove yourself from the actual operation of the business, you can't schedule yourself, you know, you'd be able to free them to float around because eventually it needs to run without you there at each location. There's not three of us, you know. Well individual, you know, like I can't be, Scott and I each can't be at all three locations. Especially one on the west coast on the same day. So [unintelligible] definitely gonna change or more delegating, you know, tasks to be done. We'll spend like the mornings like, you know, before we are open for dinner, recipe testing. So it's just Scott and I cooking, we'll come with a new dish and then we'll write all the notes down, we'll weigh everything out, write it down. So then, you know, a month later when we set that dish on, we just send it to the staff, and they know what to do.
So right now, it's just a bunch of planning and making sure that we're set up. So when we get really busy, we can operate smoothly. Here it’s different because this one's not part of my new restaurant group, it is just my family, and you know, my mom is 72, but she still insists on working five days a week, and you know, 60 hours a week, and she loves cooking. You know, she loves doing it, like you can't, that's who she is. She is, she loves hosting and cooking, and making people feel happy about her food. That's what she lives for, you know, certain dishes were, she just won't let anyone touch like we're doing mulnaengmyeon (cold noodle) here for the summer. You know, she just had like, it's hard to do because you got to make this really good broth, chill it in a safe way, make sure it's clear and still flavorful, and it have all these other components. You gotta make sure you're getting ready noodles in. And you gotta make sure the eggs are great, pickles are good, cucumbers are good, you know, radish is good, beef is good, you gotta make sure the mustard is good, you know, and you know and just to plating itself, it should be done in a certain sequence. She's like I can’t take a day off because we're selling naengmyeon now. I'm like, “oh my god, just show someone how to do it.” [laughs] you know, but that's also kinda like the Korean ajumma (married women) way, you know, ‘if I'm physically able to do it, why wouldn't I come into work?’ That's her mentality.
Honestly, like my friends coming to like, “man, your mom looks so much younger than my mom.” I grew up with them and we were all the same age like people look so young and less because of this she's really hit like, you know, she hangs out with you know, 20 year olds. With some of the staff and so she likes, you know, sometimes like will bust out some slang term. Where did you learn that word? It just happens a lot, you know, or reference something in pop culture and I'm just like, you know who Drake is, you know? Crazy to me. On the way home, she listens to classical music or like, you know, gospel or something. But she's like, she knows everything that's going on. She has Facebook now, which always freaks me out when it’s like, “Yesoon Lee liked or comment on something.” I’m like, “oh my God!” I think she has Instagram now, it's really scary.
[01:40:58] But, you know, she watches a ton of food documentaries and food TVs. She's always on Korean websites, and she will get ideas for new dishes and she'll [unintelligible] here. For a while, we're doing something called pear mandu here, which is dessert, so she took a mixed pairing. So 30
Asian pear, bosc pears, and peel them and dice them all up, and then sauté them in like kind of brown sugar and cinnamon, make sure to sweeten with like a nice spice. And then took puff pastry and wrap them around and made them look like dumplings. And then bake them, regular names mandu, dumplings. So we actually had a dessert the looked like a dumpling but it was a sweet pear dessert, you know. And I was like, "that's incredibly impressive. That's so smart!" So she was like, "oh, yeah, I just got this idea and I wanted to do, you know." It was really hard to make, so I just took out the menus here [inaudible].
But now we are making hoddeok, you know, the Korean sweet pancake. We're making that from scratch here now and it's selling like crazy. So again, she formulated this recipe that's very easy to replicate by the staff. And she's really good at just being able to like to make an impactful dish but create a method so that our staff will be able to replicate it truthfully, you know. So again, like it makes it easier for me with spreading my time I want. My mom still wants to be here and work. Again, on the back end, I tried to staff it in a way so that it's putting this pressure on her. We're pretty close to that. You know, I think she's about to start taking off an extra day per week off. But, you know, she likes to she likes to be involved. She likes cooking.
C: How was it like working with your mother in the kitchen together?
D: It was really rough when we first started. The first one, again, the business wasn't there, we weren't getting great feedback. We knew it was bad. So that caused a lot of stress like every day one of us walked out of the restaurant every day. I'm not kidding for like six months. It almost destroyed us honestly, and then my sister was there, and she would help out. Her and I will get into her my log into it. It was just this like terrible stretch work. We're all overworked. You know, we're all working 18 hour days for almost a year straight never took a single day off, you know, like even like Christmas, we were just like let's just order turkey to the restaurant, we'll just like clean and like eat dinner at the, you know, we’re closed, but were there still, you know,
It was tough. But it was necessary because it we've never worked together before you know, and like in that kind of setting and especially back then, you know, how to temper and they give staff member was like constantly messing up. You know, I let them know that I was very upset with that, you know, and it was a kitchen problem, you know, she was leader of the kitchen. So sometimes forgot she was my mom, you know say stuff. I probably shouldn’t have said to my mom. And again, for her, the same way, too, she was like very stubborn originally. Oh, you know, she wasn't sure if the demographic would like it a certain way. So she was kind of toning it down a little bit. And that was the battles we’re having you know, and just like operationally like it was like, we got to change how we do things.
“No, I've only done it this way.” I was like, “whoa, but at home, you know, for a restaurant, we need to change it.” There’s always battles like that and, but again, it was necessary because it caused us to become a lot stronger in our relationship. Like I remember, if we survived that period, no matter what comes at us, it's easy. Because I was very, very tough, very, very tough.
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[01:45:06] Cooking together really started working, like me changing my mindset where I was. Again, I was pretty conceited when we first opened, changing my mindset the back right? Let me learn as much as I can from my mom about Korean cooking, you know, and just being quiet and just learning from her watching and then once I was confident enough, “all right, how about we use this technique for this?” “All right. Let’s try it!” You know that really helped and that's where we really saw the business take off, you know, that's where things got fun. You know, the first six months was not fun. It was terrible with everything. We resented each other like it was very tough. But then you know, once we got through that stretch, there's a lot of fun. You know, we have like little arguments here and there about like food, mainly it's me being like, back off. Let the staff do what they want to do and what we pay them for, you know, like they want to show us that they can cook the food that they're proud when they create this dish and they let them do it.
You know, we should just back off for a bit. She's learning to do that, you know, which is great cause then she's able to walk around the restaurant, you know, and people are constantly want to pull her aside to take a picture with her, you know, and I've tried to, you know, I've always said this like I have always felt guilty because I get a lot of attention. I've been like “chef,” but in the end, she's the chef, you know, and I have always liked tried to get people to realize how good she is, you know without caring about what lot of like young chefs care about notoriety and fame. She cares less about that. You know, again, her main goal is to run a successful business for her family and to see like the joy on someone's face as they eat it. If she personally makes a dish and it's going to serve like downstairs, she's tiny as you'll see, but like, [pause] so we have this little open kitchen window, right? You'll see, you’ll see her eyes above the counter, but she'll be watching person eating and she won't she won't like to release her stare until they took the first bite and they like it, you know, she's like, okay, then she will make the next dish. it's hilarious.
C: Actually, during our interview with Bobby, [laughs] he told us a story with his interaction with Mama Lee.
D: Oh, really?
C: Like he just came in, and then sat on the bar, and then just started eating food. And then Mama Lee, she saw Bobby, and then she came on, and she’s like, “why are you here? Why aren’t you helping your mom?”
D: So one of the first times we cooked together with Seng, Bobby’s mom, Bobby wasn’t working for her. He was staging, basically like an apprenticeship at minibars (by Jose Andres). My mom yelled at him. She was like, “you need to quit! Work for your mom, tomorrow.” He was like, “okay, okay, okay.” She’s like, “I mean it.” She’s like, “Danny’s gonna follow up with you or I will.” Then he did.
C: [laughter] Can you share your experience with doing After Dark with chef Seng? 32
D: So that’s kind of like what we did here with Anju, right? We wanted, so Scott and I love collaborating with other chefs. So we want to do something at CHIKO where we ran a series of chefs either local or out of town chefs cooking with us, and turning into a series. We named it CHIKO After Dark series. It came about as a chef from Hawaii, his name is Sheldon (Simeon), really well-known chef. He was going to be in town speaking at the Smithsonian, so he, chef was like, “hey, I’m in town! Let’s cook together one night.” He notified us in like August or something like that. It was going to be in late October. So we’re like, “all right, let’s do it.” And then Scott and I were thinking about “well, let’s do one before that just to get used to it.” So this chef named Alex McCoy who used to do a bunch of Thai pop-ups here called Alfie’s. Now he just opened up Lucky Buns, which is exploding. He did the first one, did two nights, we did like a Thai menu, very successful. It was a great night and then, then where we got into this system, so Sheldon was next one. And then we had Bobby’s mom Seng. She came in with Katsuya Fukushima, the chef of Daikaya. They did one together and that one was crazy. It was a lot of fun. A lot of people came out. Just so many people in this tiny CHIKO kitchen doing that.
[01:49:50] But, you know, it's been fun because like, you know, people come in and we tell them they don't have to limit themselves to Chinese or Korean food. They can do whatever they want to do. You know, we had two chefs come in and they did all Italian, you know. Yeah, with the CHIKO After Dark has been, you know, the chef usually does three to four dishes and then we run a limited CHIKO menu. Everything is eight dollars, so it's like very, we want everyone to experience the guest chefs’ dishes to do it. We do this little kitchen counter seating where the chefs are able to interact with the guests, you know, stuff like that. So it's been a lot of fun, you know. It's easier to do with local chefs because they're here and they could prep everything there. But we've had several chefs from around the country come in and do it. It's always challenging because you gotta prep all the food, you know, cause they are flying. So we prep all the food and you never sure if it's what they wanted, but, you know, it's always been good, and it's always worked out well. So we try to do it once a month, you know, we'll see with how we expand, you know. But we are trying to do that in San Diego as well, to try to... What we want to do, in San Diego is kind of build what we did in D.C. as build community, you know, out there, chefs and stuff. So part of the outreach is by inviting chefs to cook with you at the restaurant and doing stuff like that.
C: And how did you guys decide to open CHIKO in San Diego?
D: One of my partners, Andrew, lives out there now, so he moved out there, that was always his plan and he moved with family out there, his wife and two kids about a month after we opened up CHIKO D.C. in Capitol Hill. And then he immediately started looking for spaces. We thought that if we could show that the concept works in D.C. and the second one all the way out in San Diego and prove that that's successful, too. We have a concept that, you know, people get excited about if we want to expand more whether it's, you know, real estate brokers or lenders, investors or whatever, you know, we've proved that we made something work that supposed to be like the last thing you should do, you know. [unintelligible] the second location. 33
So we like, somewhere close and we're like suppose far away as possible. So it could be idiotic who knows, but I think it will work out.
[01:52:24-01:53:24] deleted
So we're excited for the challenge. With that, not to say that we're going to make like that big of a dent in that, but you know, I'm excited to, we're excited to show that area what we do.
[01:53:41] C: how has your Korean heritage/identity have, like the meaning of having Korean heritage changed over time, before opening a restaurant and afterward?
D: I become more connected to it. You know, I always viewed myself, you know, I don't have many Korean friends growing up. I went to like Sunday school and like youth group and stuff at a Korean church. So, you know, I still have some of those people, but besides that, my social life really didn’t involve anything Korean. At UVA there's a lot of self-segregation happen, right? So a lot of the Korean Americans only hung out with Korean Americans, you know, and I never wanted to do that. And remember they would also like, if I passed by the group, they were like make comments like, “sellout” and stuff like that. I was like, “are you kidding me?” So the way I almost felt like resentment towards, I mean, I was like, you know, I just didn’t want to do that. Looking back on it, I think it was really immature way to think about it because, you know, they probably weren't raised in a way that encourage them to acclimate, you know, because I saw my parents really acclimated themselves into the American culture, you know, they had American friends, white friends. A lot of the other Korean kids I saw were like, their parents only took them to Korean events and stuff like that. So it's not fair for me, it wasn't fair for me to judge them in that way, just as it wasn't fair for them to label me as a sellout or like, you know, Twinkie and stuff like that. You always hear stuff like that, you know, and but you know, I was born here, my Korean is terrible. I can understand pretty well, but I cannot speak to, you know, I'm a very poor Korean speaker.
C: Did you go to Korean language school, Sunday school?
D: I went to Korean school like as a kid in the summer, but once you go to school, and you're surrounded by, you know, native English speakers, like you're not going to pertain it. But you know, after we opened up the restaurant that really, just culinary-wise, I wanted to connect to the culture to really understand how to properly cook something what the history behind the dish was. And that caused me to appreciate the culture, you know, even more so that way. Also understanding just Korean people in general. Korean people act very differently at restaurants than like, you know Americans, you know.
C: How?
D: If you go to restaurant in Korea, you know, there's typically no host. You know, just take whatever you just walk-in and you just sit down, whatever open seat, and then when you want 34 something you yell out yeogiyo (excuse me/hey in Korean), you know, you just yell, it's fine. Here, as Koreans walk-in like blow right past the host stand and sit down. Let's say it's like we have a reservation for eight, the table is setup for eight. They will just sit down like in the middle and the host would be like, “I'm sorry, how many? it'll just be like, okay, we have reservations on the probably about an hour.” and like, “what do you mean? This is open right here. Why can't sit on it? Like well again, you know, we have reservations coming in, you know, maybe or you know, like they all feel [unintelligible] have to work it out with them, you know.
You know, they walk in and sit down, and a server will come by and "all right, are you ready to order?" "No." they turn around and "yeogiyo!" [laughter] You know, and service, some Korean restaurants have something called 'service,' which is usually like a, not all Korean restaurants to this, but something for free. We are already giving banchan for free. But they usually want something else like, we've heard everything like "oh, can I get a bottle of soju for service?" I'm like, "you want a free bottle of soju?" Umm, but it was my job to train the staff, like this is what they're used to in Korea, right? So just go along with it, have fun with it, you know, but don't snap on them because again, it's not their fault. They're used to dining in a certain ways or something about, and especially if this is the first time in the State's, they're thinking that they found one Korean restaurant that will make them feel more comfortable. But we don't do that, [laughs] you know, so, you know, we just have to be gentle with them. You know, it's just been, it's just ways to understand that more.
I just got back from Korea, I went with my wife last winter. And I really wanted to see, you know, I went to a variety of restaurants, you know, to the street stalls to actually like fine dining restaurants. I wanted to see, I was like, "All right, what does that average Korean [unintelligible] go out to eat?" And some of it is just walking through and I'm like, "yeogiyo," But then, there are like, you know, other more modern restaurants where you get sat by a host, you don't scream whenever you need something, you know, someone comes by and like, "Can I take your order? please order," so I think that's starting to change a little bit. But you know, it's always an adjustment, you know, but I think with us our staff is with us for so long, they know, they're fine. And you know, we have some Korean staff and they're like, you know, the whole yeogiyo [unintelligible]. Yeah, so that's always a challenge but it's been good.
[01:59:44] C: What are your goals outside of food?
D: I'm married. So be a good spouse, be supportive, my wife has her own, started her own interior design company. So be as supportive as I can with her, be a good son, you know, I think our goal the next six months are very critical. We are opening a concept on the West Coast. We have another one opening here and then we're redoing the original Mandu. You know, so I’m basically opening up three restaurants in span of six months, which is ludicrous, you know, the plan is, after that, let's say a year from now, when they're all opened up and running for a few months to reevaluate and think about like work-life balance to make sure that none of us get burned out, you know.
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All of us have happy family lives and are comfortable, you know, so, eventually I want to get a position obviously where we are financially successful. But with that I think comes responsibility, you know, so no matter how financially successful you are, I think with us we want to find a way to contribute to society in some way, right? So whether that's employing people, right? You're getting people jobs, which is great, but it's a fair wage, right? you know, there's, not just paying someone taking advantage of, making sure they're taken care of, getting the company at a point where we can provide actual luxuries that other companies can't afford, you know insurance for everyone, you know, stuff like that. But also, you know, take care of extended family, relatives, get a local charity, which we already do to a certain extent but it will be great if we could maybe start our own charity, you know, do something that we see a direct impact and instead of like, you know, we do all these huge events every year we donate food, we donate our time, we cook, but there's these like huge, millions of dollars. I never know what my direct contribution did to a certain individual, you know, I like to see him more of one-on- one approach where, I don't know, just feel better about doing something like that, you know just be, just have a good responsible, balanced life.
That sounds like an answer that anyone should give you like a [unintelligible] across the industry. But in this industry specifically, that's a very hard thing to achieve. How do you stay successful while being sane and happy, you know, there's a lot of depression in this industry.
I've had some friends, you know, commit suicide, like everyone knows someone about that. And because this life, this drive can cause that, you know, you're a chef, you driving so hard, you open a restaurant, for some reason it fails, you know, that's your life, you know. It crushes people, you know, so we want to find a way where we can avoid those pitfalls, but then also instill a sense of confidence and balance to not just ourselves but to our employees, you know as well. We're growing, we want employees to grow with us. We wanna reward them, we want them to have good lives as well. So that's something I'm always watching over my staff. I see someone teetering on the edge of losing control, you know, I'll pull them aside, I'll have coffee or something, right? "You need some time off or what's going on?" you know. Because we've all seen like so many horror stories and stuff like that. That's just not worth it. Nothing's worth that. You know, I rather shut a business down than have someone do something drastic. So that's always the tough balance. But you know, I think the way we run things here and the way CHIKO is working, you know, the way we with that group that we run things. I think it's, everyone's happy.
We are very open. If there's any problems, [unintelligible], talk to each other. Don't hold things in until it blows off a huge, especially in the kitchens, there's hot pans and knives [laughs] you are responsible. Yeah, that's my ultimate goal, you just build a team around this where everyone can just have a balanced life. Obviously, we are very, we are drivers, we love working, we love driving staff that, we love trying to get the best out of people, you know. But you can't get the best out of someone when they were unhappy. As owners, we are fine putting into work because it is ours, you know, we don't expect our employees to treat as if theirs, but we'd like to provide the sense of ownership to them, where they work as if it was because they are happy with the company they work for. They are proud of the product that they are giving out, 36 you know. So if you instill that culture in your company, not only your business is gonna be successful, but I think you will have a really, really good personal life. And I don't think we are too far away from that, hopefully. Or like a year from now, we are like, "it sucks." [laughs] Nah, I think we are really happy. I'm really happy with how things are here and with my new partners Scott and Andrew. It's been good.
[02:05:40]
You know, culturally too, if someone told me at CHIKO they were at the counter, they were saying that they are proud to see, they are Korean, and they are proud to see a restaurant like CHIKO getting a lot of attention because they felt a cultural tie, too. I never thought about that way, cause it, you almost feel more responsibility then. "hey, I'm not trying to represent the whole Korean culture, [unintelligible] it is Chinese Korean, you know, "Ko." But that really stuck with me, you know, it was just like, [pause]. We are able to expand, you know, Mandu and CHIKO, whatever to become like a household-style name, right? That's a lot of weight, you know, so if we are able to do it responsibly, and make people proud of that, that's awesome. You know, to promote Chinese culture and Korean culture [unintelligible] much more. But also showing that it doesn't have to be done in certain way. That's what we do in CHIKO. There is no rule book of what our food is. It's just half of our food are using Chinese ingredients and techniques and using Korean ingredients and techniques, bring our own little modern twist on them, and then you know, try to feed as many people as possible. Someone learn something about the culture at the same time, that's a bonus. But we already feel like we are promoting the culture, with just staff works for us. Over the years, from both Mandus, I probably had 200 people who worked for me, you know. When you think about like we had for 12 years and turn over stuff like that, maybe only 5%, those being native Koreans, you know, so to even just that amount of people to educate them about Korean culture and dining, that's great! [unintelligible] they can take friends out to Koreatown and like, "oh, I've had this, I can tell this, and this, I can prep this for you, or this is what the word is" so that they can get gluten-free and vegetarian. That's awesome. You know, at CHIKO, same thing. The more restaurants that open successfully, the more people are able to educate about the different cuisine. I think that's something a lot of people miss, you know, that educational aspect of opening up the restaurant, just the staff alone, you are taking people who've never ever experienced either culture or whatever culture the restaurant is and you are educating them. That's the responsibility of the owners to make sure you are educating them correctly.
C: That reminds me of, I've been seeing a lot of, very strong representation of Korean American chefs in fine-dining or just restaurant industry in general. How did that happen?
[02:09:00]
D: David Chang. He's the one who made it happen. [pause] You know, Momofuku Noodle Bar was the first one. It was a huge deal. You know, he's from here. My mom taught him piano. She knows his parents. He decided that he wanted to be a chef, you know, worked all around the world actually, so in New York, and took a big risk. I think he took some family money and got a 37 personal loan, opened the first Momofuku that blew up, and then decided to another one Ssam Bar, more personal loans to do that. [unintelligible] He kind of built this name while not doing authentic Korean food, he implemented part of his culture being Korean into his food, that was done in a setting and atmosphere that no one has ever seen that style of food being done before. He was kind of brash, outspoken personality, isn't afraid to speak his mind, whereas I think a lot of Koreans or a lot of Asians in America tend to be shy and don't like to cause controversy. They just sit back and just be quite. That's what I'm saying, even just, regardless of the food that he's done, just him coming out and not being afraid to be a vocal person of being of Korean heritage, that's awesome. So I think that kind of paved a way for, you know, some other Korean chefs to come out and be vocal as well. I've never been a shy person, so you know, that's never been my problem, I guess, but, you know, it definitely helps that he kind of paved a way to, at least in mainstream media and stuff like that to not be shy about anything. And speak your mind.
You know, we have Roy Choi in LA, started with Kogi trucks, now has a multifaceted empire. He's the one I really respect and admire. Even Ed (Edward Lee), he's released two books, one cookbook and one like memoir-style journal, which is super ambitious, incredibly smart, well- read chef, you know, who has created kind of fine-dining Southern-style destination restaurant in Kentucky, but then can still cook Korean food, you know, still pay homage to it, and still always wanting to learn more about Korean food. You know, even with him, he's had a very successful career, even now, he still wants to learn more about Korean food and implement that, just making it more successful, which is awesome. So I think the more prominent those guys get, and more chefs, that really helps the, only it does is just makes things easier if more people to inroads into business or whatever, cause then more people are exposed to Korean restaurants or that kind of style of cuisine, where it's not just barbecue restaurant, you know.
It would be good to see more Korean American female chefs come out. There are some, there's a chef name Beverley (Kim) in Chicago. There's a restaurant called Parachute, with her husband. She's very well known. Rachel Yang in Seattle, who's awesome, incredibly talented. So, you know, started to see some really [unintelligible] be really successful. Esther Choi in New York, she's exploding right now, so you know, it's good to see. It's kind of just rise of Korean American chefs moving up, some who don't even cook Korean food. Some Korean American chefs, or Asian American chefs who are in charge of like French Laundry and stuff like that. You know, it's crazy to see, so it's good. You know, I think we're, to me, just cook because of the joy of it and paying homage to culture, you know, I don't think, we don't do this because we are going after certain level of notoriety or theme or anything like that. It's easier now because people like David Chang or Roy Choi kind of, again, laid those roads for us to walk on now. I'm not necessarily gonna take the same path, you know. I wanna kind of see where this goes and wherever it leads us, we'll do it our own way.
C: Before we close the interview, do you have anything that you wanted to talk about that you didn't get a chance to say? 38
D: No, I don't think so, I mean, we covered everything. You are probably gonna hear some huge contradictions what I said when my mom comes on later.
C: [laughter] We are excited for that.
D: I'm sure you will.
C: Thank you so much for sharing your story and time.
D: My pleasure.