THE FIRST MEETING OF THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TWELFTH PARLIAMENT MONDAY 14 DECEMBER 2020

ENGLISH VERSION HANSARD NO: 200 THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY SPEAKER The Hon. Phandu T. C. Skelemani PH, MP. DEPUTY SPEAKER The Hon. Mabuse M. Pule, MP. (Mochudi East)

Clerk of the National Assembly - Ms B. N. Dithapo Deputy Clerk of the National Assembly - Mr L. T. Gaolaolwe Learned Parliamentary Counsel - Ms M. Mokgosi Assistant Clerk (E) - Mr R. Josiah CABINET His Excellency Dr M. E. K. Masisi, MP. - President

His Honour S. Tsogwane, MP. (Boteti West) - Vice President Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Hon. K. N. S. Morwaeng, MP. (Molepolole South) - Administration

Hon. K. T. Mmusi, MP. (Gabane-Mmankgodi) - Minister of Defence, Justice and Security Hon. Dr L. Kwape, MP. (Kanye South) - Minister of International Affairs and Cooperation Hon. E. M. Molale, MP. (Goodhope-Mabule ) - Minister of Local Government and Rural Development Hon. K. S. Gare, MP. (Moshupa-Manyana) - Minister of Agricultural Development and Food Security Minister of Environment, Natural Resources Conservation Hon. P. K. Kereng, MP. (Specially Elected) - and Tourism Hon. Dr E. G. Dikoloti MP. (Mmathethe-Molapowabojang) - Minister of Health and Wellness Hon. T.M. Segokgo, MP. (Tlokweng) - Minister of Transport and Communications Hon. K. Mzwinila, MP. (Specially Elected) - Minister of Land Management, Water and Sanitation Services Minister of Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Hon. T. M. Rakgare, MP. (Mogoditshane) - Development

Hon. A. M. Mokgethi, MP. (Gaborone Bonnington North) - Minister of Nationality, Immigration and Gender Affairs Hon. Dr T. Matsheka, MP. (Lobatse) - Minister of Finance and Economic Development Hon. F. M. M. Molao, MP. (Shashe West) - Minister of Basic Education Minister of Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Hon. Dr D. Letsholathebe, MP. (Tati East) - Technology Minister of Mineral Resources, Green Technology and Hon. L. M. Moagi, MP. (Ramotswa) - Energy Security

Hon. P. O. Serame, MP. (Specially Elected) - Minister of Investment, Trade and Industry Minister of Employment, Labour Productivity and Skills Hon. M. Balopi, MP. (Gaborone North) - Development

Hon. M. Kgafela, MP. (Mochudi West) - Minister of Infrastructure and Housing Development

Assistant Minister, Presidential Affairs, Governance and Hon. D. M. Mthimkhulu, MP. (Gaborone South) - Public Administration Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Hon. K. K. Autlwetse, MP. (Specially Elected) - Development Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Hon. S. N. Modukanele, MP. (Lerala -Maunatlala) - Development Assistant Minister, Agricultural Development and Food Hon. B. Manake, MP. (Specially Elected) - Security

Hon. S. Lelatisitswe, MP. (Boteti East) - Assistant Minister, Health and Wellness

Hon. N. W. T. Makwinja, MP. (Lentsweletau-Mmopane) - Assistant Minister, Basic Education

Hon. M. S. Molebatsi, MP. (Mmadinare) - Assistant Minister, Investment, Trade and Industry Assistant Minister, Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Hon. H. B. Billy, MP. (Francistown East) - Development Hon. M. R. Shamukuni, MP. (Chobe) - Assistant Minister,Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Technology MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT AND THEIR CONSTITUENCIES

Names Constituency

RULING PARTY (Botswana Democratic Party) Hon. L. Kablay, MP. (Government Whip) Letlhakeng-Lephephe Hon. Dr U. Dow, MP. Specially Elected Hon. P. Majaga, MP. Nata-Gweta Hon. J. S. Brooks, MP. Kgalagadi South Hon. C. Greeff, MP. Gaborone Bonnington South Hon. T. Letsholo, MP. Kanye North Hon. T. F. Leuwe, MP. Takatokwane Hon. T. Mangwegape-Healy, MP. Gaborone Central Hon. S. N. Moabi, MP. Tati West Hon. T. Monnakgotla, MP. Kgalagadi North Hon. P. K. Motaosane, MP. Thamaga-Kumakwane Hon. O. Regoeng, MP. Molepolole North Hon. J. L. Thiite, MP. Ghanzi North OPPOSITION (Umbrella for Democratic Change) Hon. D. Saleshando, MP. (Leader of the Opposition) Maun West Hon. A. Lesaso, MP. (Acting Opposition Whip) Shoshong Hon. D. L. Keorapetse, MP. Selebi Phikwe West Hon. Y. Boko, MP Mahalapye East Hon. Dr K. Gobotswang, MP. Sefhare-Ramokgonami Hon. C. K. Hikuama, MP. Ngami Hon. K. K. Kapinga, MP Okavango Hon. G. Kekgonegile, MP. Maun East Hon. P. P. P. Moatlhodi, MP. Tonota Hon. T. B. Lucas, MP. Bobonong Hon. M. G. J. Motsamai, MP. Ghanzi South Hon. K. Nkawana, MP. Selebi Phikwe East Hon. O. Ramogapi, MP. Palapye Hon. Dr N. Tshabang, MP. Nkange Hon. D. Tshere, MP. Mahalapye West Hon. M. I. Moswaane, MP. Francistown West (Botswana Patriotic Front) Hon. T. S. Khama, MP. Serowe West Hon. L. Lesedi, MP. Serowe South Hon. B. Mathoothe, MP. Serowe North Hon. M. R. Reatile, MP. Jwaneng-Mabutsane (Alliance for Progressives) Hon. W. B. Mmolotsi, MP. Francistown South TABLE OF CONTENTS THE FIRST MEETING OF THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TWELFTH PARLIAMENT MONDAY 14 DECEMBER, 2020

CONTENTS PAGE (S)

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER...... 1-10

STATEMENT Response to Dr Gobotswang’s Utterances on the Urgent ISPAAD Motion...... 11-15

BUSINESS MOTION...... 16

Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2020 (No. 14 of 2020) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)...... 16-33

Local Government (Amendment) Bill, 2020 (No. 24 of 2020) Second Reading...... 34-38 Monday 14th December, 2020 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

Monday 14th December, 2020 In the short term Water Utilities Corporation (WUC) will add an additional water source being borehole BH6266 THE ASSEMBLY met at 2:00 p.m. and the water from this additional borehole complies (THE SPEAKER in the Chair) to drinking water standards and has very low levels of salinity. The water from BH6266 will be blended with P R A Y E R S water from BH11299, which will reduce salinity of the current water supplied to Hereford. * * * * Regarding Boteti West Mr Speaker, funding has been QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER secured from World Bank for consultancy works on WATER TREATMENT PLANT review of the design and construction works of Boteti Southern and Central Cluster Villages Project. The ex- MR S. J. BROOKS (KGALAGADI SOUTH): asked isting design for this project was done more than 10 the Minister of Land Management, Water and Sanitation years ago. For this reason, a consultant was engaged Services when the construction of the water treatment to review this design to align it with a revised 20-year plant/desalination plants in Werda/Hereford in the design horizon. The consultancy works started in April Kgalagadi South and Boteti West Constituencies will 2020 and are expected to be completed by February commence. 2021. This will be immediately followed by construc- MINISTER OF LAND MANAGEMENT, WATER tion works around April 2021. The project is estimated to take 18 months thus completion date is projected to AND SANITATION SERVICES (MR MZWINILA): be November 2022. I thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you Mr Speaker. Let me start my response by informing this Honourable House that water supply at MR BROOKS: Supplementary. Thank you Mr Speak- Werda Village is 393m3/day against a demand of 295m3/ er, thank you Honourable Minister for the answers. My day which leads to a surplus of 98m3/day, whereas question is, is it not in the plan to connect the two bore- Hereford daily water supply is 64m3/day against a holes which have already been drilled in Makopong be- demand of 112m3/day, leading to a deficit of 48m3/day. fore Christmas so that people could have access to the The deficit is bridged by bowsing from Werda which water which they have waited for, for so long? Thank is 55 kilometres away, and in some cases operating you Mr Speaker. the engine at the borehole that supplies the village for MR MZWINILA: The question was in regard to Wer- extended hours (more than 16 hours). da and Hereford, in any case, regarding Makopong, we have the intension to do just that where possible. I thank Mr Speaker, my ministry does not have plans in the you. short or medium term to construct desalination plants in Werda or Hereford villages in the Kgalagadi South SCOTTISH LIVINGSTONE HOSPITAL Constituency. The reasons are firstly; SUPERINTENDENT

• The quality of water from the Werda boreholes is MR O. REGOENG (MOLEPOLOLE NORTH): within allowable drinking standards of Botswana asked the Minister of Health and Wellness if he is aware that Scottish Livingstone Hospital in Molepolole Bureau of Standards (BOS32:2015): drinking water operated without a substantive Hospital Superintendent specification and World Health Organisation (WHO) for a long time; and if so, to state: guidelines. Therefore, we do not require treatment from a desalination plant. (i) when the position will be filled;

• Hereford is currently supplied by a single borehole (ii) if he is aware that the old hospital operated with BH11299. The water quality results of this borehole 120 beds and that the new hospital has 350 beds; which has a small yield of 4m3/hour shows a (iii) whether upon relocation to the new building, fluctuation in salinity results ranging between the hospital reviewed its operational structure to allowable water drinking standards to slightly above match increased number of beds and other clinical allowable water drinking standards in some months. work;

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(iv) the current ratio of nursing staff to doctors; (v) When it comes to the ratio of nurses and doctors nursing staff to patients and doctor to patients at to patients; let me point out that one doctor sees the hospital; 375 patients, when a nurse sees 39. According to the World Health Organisation (WHO), this (v) whether he is satisfied with the above ratios; and is acceptable. The international standard is 23 if not, what the ministry is doing to address this doctors per 10 000 population. When we consider unsatisfactory situation and when; that standard, we are doing well Mr Speaker.

(vi) if he is aware that nurses perform various tasks (vi) How nurses operate; every nurse does the job they some of which do not necessarily form part of were employed for, or a duty that is there under their specified duties; and the job they were employed for. Those who are (vii) whether their (nurses) training allows them to not able, there is no nurse who can do anything perform such multiple tasks. outside their job bracket Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER (MR SKELEMANI): Honourable (vii) As a ministry, we are committed to continue Minister of Health and Wellness, if you are unable to sending nurses for further trainings for short answer that question is less than three minutes, I will courses to improve where we see gaps, as medical direct that you give the answer to the Honourable matters improve every year. I thank you. Member in writing. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Supplementary Mr ASSISTANT MINISTER OF HEALTH AND Speaker. WELLNESS (MR LELATISITSWE): I will try Mr Speaker. MR SPEAKER: You are going to be very late. If you wait, I will call the next person. Thank you Mr Speaker. MR REGOENG: Supplementary. I heard your answer (i) The ministry is aware of the vacancy for the positon of the Hospital Superintendent at the Honourable Minister, although you were saying you are Molepolole hospital. It has been vacant since content with the nurses and doctors’ ratios against those 2019 and we have not been able to fill it because of patients; those in Molepolole work strenuously. One we have not yet come across a suitable candidate would have a responsibility to examine the patients, to fill that position. The ministry is committed to dispense medicines on the other side, and interpreting filling that post next year. for doctors as well. So, when he says that he is satisfied (ii) Mr Speaker, we know the hospital is a 350 beds with the ratio of nurses and doctors, honestly, should hospital, having been upgraded from where it was, this situation be like this? which was a 120 beds hospital. As we are saying, this hospital has not been able to utilise its current MR LELATISITSWE: Thank you Honourable capacity. Every year when we see the demand Member. I believe that sometimes when there are many from people, we increase Mr Speaker. duties, our nurses end up doing many different tasks (iii) Mr Speaker, when this hospital moved from where at the same time. The thing is, these are the tasks that it was to a new structure, nothing changed, it is they have been trained for. Maybe the problems is that still a district hospital. The only thing is that when sometimes there is a shortage of staff Mr Speaker, but the new hospital was built, it had more space but it they do tasks which they are trained for. does not change the standard of the hospital, it is still a district hospital. The only difference is that MATIMELA PROGRAMME the old hospital was a bit congested. So that one MR M. G. J. MOTSAMAI (GHANZI SOUTH): has ample space, nothing has changed. asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural (iv) Mr Speaker, the occupancy rate for the hospital is Development whether there are plans to hand over the not at full capacity, it is at 60 per cent as we speak. Matimela Programme to the Ministry of Agricultural We believe as the district is growing, the capacity Development and Food Security; if not, why not and if will be fully utilised. so, when.

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ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT (MR MODUKANELE): Thank you Mr Speaker, thank MR SPEAKER: Honourable Motsamai, we are going you Honourable Member for the question. Mr Speaker, to run out of time. there are no plans to hand over the Matimela Programme HONOURABLE MEMBER: He is still distracted by to the Ministry of Agricultural Development and Food arguing. Security. My ministry through the local authorities is responsible for development programmes and provision MR MOTSAMAI: Since you are saying that you will of service at local level, hence promoting citizen try and do that, do not take cattle that has branding or or community participation for efficient, effective, an ear tag to Matimela kraals. When are you going to accountable, and equitable service delivery. try and do that and when are you going to complete that process? Even though I am arguing, when should It is also worth noting that, relocating Matimela Batswana expect the results Minister? Thank you. Programme to the Ministry of Agricultural Development and Food Security will frustrate the aspirations of the HONOURABLE MEMBER: Why are you arguing? Decentralisation Policy. which is currently at its final MR MOTSAMAI: No, some are saying I am arguing. stage of formulation and seeks to transfer power and authority from Central Government to local authorities. MR MODUKANELE: Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you Honourable Motsamai. No, the truth of the matter Mr Speaker, in a new development, my ministry is is that I am not in the dark, I know what is happening. working towards collaborating with the Ministry of What I am saying is exactly what Minister Molale is Agricultural Development and Food Security to improve saying. the Matimela Services by utilising the Botswana Animal Information and Traceability System (BAITS), to notify I think like I said, there will be collaboration between the owners of Matimela where practicable. I must however, two ministries, but the overarching objective is that at hasten to point out that this will require a corresponding the end of the day, we decentralise to the local authority amendment of the Matimela Law, because procedures so that decisions and action is taken nearer where the of notification and related time periods are prescribed problem is at rural areas. I thank you Mr Speaker. in the statutes.

Mr Speaker, at the end of the day, it should be noted that INTERNET CONNECTION IN MAHALAPYE the responsibility for taking care of our cattle rests solely WEST CONSTITUENCY with us as individual owners. I thank you Mr Speaker. MR D. TSHERE (MAHALAPYE WEST): asked the MR MOTSAMAI: Supplementary. Thank you Mr Minister of Basic Education to state the following: Speaker. Minister, I hear you when you say that you do (i) how many primary schools have been connected not have plans to hand over the Matimela Programme to the Ministry of Agricultural Development and Food to the internet in Mahalapye Sub-District Council Security from Councils. Are you saying that you are and Mahalapye West Constituency in particular; refusing to hand over cattle, small stock and donkeys to (ii) whether his ministry considers it necessary to have the relevant ministry just because you are saying it will frustrate the aspirations of the Decentralisation Policy? primary schools connected to the internet; Do you mean that Ministry of Agricultural Development (iii) if he is aware that most of the schools which and Food Security is not supposed to decentralise some benefited from donations of computers or tablets duties even if they are not specifically from Councils? have not been able to utilise them because of lack I was with Honourable Molale yesterday at Gantsi, we have included all these ministries. Did he not tell you, of internet connectivity; and are you in the dark? Did he not tell you what you are (iv) when he is planning to connect internet to schools assessing? mentioned at (i) above. Secondly… ASSISTANT MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Laughter!)… (MS MAKWINJA): Thank you Mr Speaker.

Hansard No 200 3 Monday 14th December, 2020 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

(i) Mr Speaker, please allow me to clarify from Secondly, donations that are taken there; you are saying the onset that my ministry and that of Local that dongles were donated which connect to the internet, Government and Rural Development, have those are not sustainable and they are very expensive. different responsibilities with regards to the We need fixed internet in schools. Let me understand if provision of pre and primary education. The I should ask Ministry of Local Government and Rural Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development or it is your responsibility? I want to get Development is responsible for the provision of that clear. Thank you. infrastructure, which includes the construction of primary schools, their electrification and MS MAKWINJA: Thank you very much Honourable connectivity, while my ministry is responsible for Member. Yes, it is Local Government and Rural the provision of teaching and learning resources. Development that is responsible for providing that Both ministries Mr Speaker, therefore work infrastructure. Thank you. together to resource primary schools in this MR SPEAKER: The last supplementary. regard. Having said that, my ministry has not connected any primary schools in Mahalapye Sub- MR MMOLOTSI: Supplementary. Minister, you look District to the internet. However, 37 schools out like or you have indicated that you are committed to of 52 schools in Mahalapye Sub-District, and 10 providing Information Technology (IT) equipment primary schools in Mahalapye West Constituency especially iPads. Other than the ones which have been have benefitted from internet connectivity through donated by good Samaritans, as a ministry, have you donations. ever donated iPads to any school in Botswana?

(ii) Mr Speaker, it is necessary that all primary schools MS MAKWINJA: I did not prepare for that question are connected to high speed internet to facilitate member. Thank you. Information and Communications Technology DOMBOSHABA ANNUAL CULTURAL (ICT) integration in teaching and learning. FESTIVAL

(iii) Mr Speaker, the ministry is aware that some MR S. N. MOABI (TATI WEST): asked the schools which benefitted from donations of Minister of Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture computers or tablets have not been able to utilise Development what strategies are in place to resuscitate them fully, because of internet connectivity and the Domboshaba Annual Cultural Festival and pair it capacity constraints. with other similar cultural festivals to create one big (iv) Mr Speaker, my ministry has engaged the Ministry annual Northern Cultural Festival that will include of Local Government and Rural Development, Dikgatlhong, Letsibogo, Shashe Trading Tree, Shashe Botswana Communications Regulatory Authority Dam, The Mwali Annual Rain Dance, The Tshesebe (BOCRA) and Botswana Fibre Networks Fig Tree, The Gandanyemba, The Tombapalela Annual (BoFiNeT) with the objective of fast-tracking Festivals and the Nyangabwe Annual Festival to attract connectivity to all schools including primary. In tourists. addition to school connectivity, the intention is to Later Date. provide computer devices to upper primary level learners, as well as build teacher capacity to enable MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member for Mochudi them to integrate ICT in teaching and learning. East, Honourable Pule. Younger learners from pre-school to Standard 4, will have access to mobile labs that will be HONOURABLE MEMBER: I will take it Mr provided in all schools. This plan is scheduled to Speaker. be completed by end of 2023, funds permitting Mr MR SPEAKER: Really? Speaker. I thank you. CARETAKING RESPONSIBILITY ALLOWANCE MR TSHERE: Supplementary. Thank you Honourable FOR MOSETSE BRIGADE Speaker and thank you Honourable Minister. Let me understand this, are you saying that Ministry of Local MR P. MAJAGA (NATA-GWETA): asked the Government and Rural Development has been engaged Minister of Employment, Labour Productivity and to fast track internet connectivity in schools and not Skills Development if he is aware that there are three your ministry? officers at Mosetse Brigade who have not been paid

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Caretaking Responsibility Allowance from 2009 to According to the analysis from the office, the 2012 even though the then Acting Deputy Principal had submitted documents, in particular the minutes written confirmation letters to that effect; and if so, to dated 13th October 2009, did not clearly specify state: the caretaking roles the officers were performing at the time. Instead, the officers submitted a (i) when they will be paid; and one-page document which is not signed, titled (ii) why it has taken long for them to be paid yet “Presentation of issues related to caretaking” th the office has been furnished with the relevant dated 5 June 2013. The document does not required documents. provide information that would assist the ministry to make a decision on their claim. The officers MINISTER OF EMPLOYMENT, LABOUR have, therefore, been requested to submit the PRODUCTIVITY AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT correct documentation and we are committed to (MR BALOPI): Mr Speaker, let me preface my answer respond as per their requirements, provided that by pointing out that since the brigades were transferred we have all the documentation in place. I thank to my ministry in 2017, 263 officers have been paid you, Mr Speaker. caretaking allowance. MR MAJAGA: Supplementary. Thank you Mr I am aware of the three officers at Mosetse Brigade Speaker. Thank you Honourable Minister. Honourable who allege that they have not been paid Caretaking Minister, maybe you can explain to this House that after Responsibility Allowance from 2009 to 2012. The taking the brigades, can you confirm if people all over reason for the non-payment is due to inadequate the country have not been affected by this issue? Have information submitted by the officers concerned at the you made some compensation regarding all officers? time of processing payments of the allowances to other deserving officers. The requirements that are necessary Secondly, at Mosetse, the coordinator who was partaking for the payment of such allowance include submission in this is Mr Lesetedi who confirmed that he has done of: everything. Does the problem not lie with your office? • appointment letter for caretaking responsibilities. Ever since you changed ministries, it is impossible to communicate with you especially with people who are • affidavit from supervisor in the absence of in charge of that. What is your take on that one? When appointment letter or minutes of management can you facilitate the public to have phone numbers of meetings in the event that the officer was holding a those who are in charge at your ministry so that these supervisory or management position. things can be dealt with amicably? • the set performance deliverables; MR BALOPI: Thank you Honourable Member for that (i) Mr Speaker, payment for the two officers who question. In responding to your question Honourable allege that they were caretaking for Head of Majaga, I have indicated that there are 263 officers Department (HOD) positions cannot be effected who assumed caretaking position while the brigades due to the insufficient documentation submitted were transitioning from the Ministry of Education to to support that allegation. The third officer alleges the Ministry of Employment, Labour Productivity and that he was caretaking for Deputy Principal from Skills Development. 263 officers have been paid the August 2010 to August 2012 and the supporting caretaking allowance. evidence submitted confirms that indeed he was appointed as a caretaker Deputy Principal It is our intention to ensure that Mosetse officers are at Shoshong Brigade. Payment for the officer also paid their allowance provided they have submitted will be effected before end of the financial year the required documents. As public service we talked 2020/2021. extensively about coordinating outstanding matters (ii) Mr Speaker, letters were sent to the concerned when brigades transitioned from the previous ministry officers on th 12 June 2019, to submit the above and other things in general because these are not the requirements, and they have indicated that only ones, we still have several issues relating to this the required information had been submitted. which are outstanding.

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The main thing is to ensure that at the end of the day, Mr Speaker, the Retirement Funds Act, 2014, Part VII those who worked, using their time and skills to assist - provisions relating to Pension Benefits (Sections 37 during that transition are paid accordingly. We will do - 41) dictates the terms and conditions of how pension due diligence and also contact public staff to ensure they benefits administered under the pension funds which offer assistance. I thank you. fall under this Act are to be managed. Currently, the provisions of the Act do not allow workers to encash any MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member for Ghanzi pension benefit prior to retirement or use their pension North, Honourable Thiite! as security for their investment loans pre-retirement. HONOURABLE MEMBER: I will represent him. Thank you Mr Speaker.

USE OF PENSION FUNDS DR TSHABANG: Supplementary. Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you Honourable Minister. I hear you DR N. TSHABANG (NKANGE): asked the Minister emphasising that they cannot be allowed to use their for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public pension for security of loans going forward. Are you Administration: aware that our neighbouring countries do that?

(i) whether in view of the depressed economic Secondly, why are they not allowed whereas these situation and the desire to empower citizens, are just their money that are being invested by other Government would allow would-be retirees companies? Why can they not be allowed to get that little and invest for themselves? Most of them when to encash from their pension funds to cushion they retire, the pension they get from the pension fund themselves and make investments as early as is so small that it is not even enough to sustain them. So, possible; and has the time not come to change the law and at least take (ii) if it is possible that Government allows workers to care of pensioners? Thank you. use their pension as security for their investment MR MTHIMKHULU: Thank you Mr Speaker. It loans. might be that laws in other countries allow them to do that but as we speak now, the Retirement Funds Act of ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL Botswana does not allow them to do what you propose. AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC Since you are asking if the time has not come to review ADMINISTRATION (MR MTHIMKHULU): Thank and amend the law, if Parliament finds it important to you Mr Speaker. that, it can amend it. It has the power to change the laws and before then, we have to follow and implement a law Mr Speaker, the public service employee pensions are that we changed just as it is. Thank you Mr Speaker. governed by two pieces of legislation being the Pensions Act, Chapter 27:01 and the Retirement Funds Act, 2014. MR KEKGONEGILE: Further supplementary. Thank The Pensions Act is a defined benefit scheme in which you Mr Speaker. We agree Minister that, that is what Government as the employer is the sole sponsor and the law says. When listening to economic sense which the pension of the employee is computed at the time of Honourable Dr Tshabang is talking about, is your retirement and the pension thereto entirely depends on ministry amenable to the change of the law so that people may survive? the length of service and the last salary the employee is earning at the time of retirement. Therefore, the MR MTHIMKHULU: That will only be possible if employee cannot access this pension until the time of there is a need to review it. That is not the question retirement. that was raised, whether it was reviewed where we assessed to find out if it is possible to do that. That can Mr Speaker, the second pension scheme is the only be done if workers agree because there are some contributory pension scheme which falls under the things which have to be done before deriving to that Retirement Funds Act of 2014 which is managed by decision. It is not possible to make a decision before an organisation known as the Botswana Public Officers consulting, permitting or asking them about what they Pension Fund in which Government contributes 15 want. Thereafter, a decision is made in terms of what per cent of the employee’s salary and the employee is to be done with their benefits going forth. Thank you contributes 5 per cent. Mr Speaker.

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COLLAPSE OF TEXTILE COMPANIES MR MOLEBATSI: Mr Speaker, I do not know whether to answer him or proceed with my debate because it will MR K. NKAWANA (SELEBI PHIKWE EAST): cover what he is looking for. As I move on Mr Speaker, Asked the Minister of Investment, Trade and Industry companies are allowed to contact us for assistance. After to state: registering a company at Companies and Intellectual (i) what happened to the factory shells machinery Property Authority (CIPA) so that it can start operating, and other materials used by the following textile the owner is responsible for making their own decisions companies when they collapsed: not the ministry or Government. It is not necessary for them to tell us about the decisions of their company; (a) Sportsline; whether they intend to close their company or improve it. We have nothing to do with their decisions Mr (b) Bag Packer; Speaker. So, we do not have a law in this country which (c) Guntron; compels any entrepreneur to tell us about the decisions taken by their company. (d) Rising Star; As a ministry Mr Speaker, we do not have any record (e) Beachline; or anything which shows what Sports Line, Back Packer, Rising Star, Beachline and Garnet did with their (f) Microlith; and companies. Just like other companies, we have nothing (g) Garnet; to do with the decisions that they make in their company. We only have information about Guntron simply (ii) whether employees of the above mentioned because they got a loan from Government; Botswana companies were able to receive their terminal Development Corporation (BDC). They handed over benefits as prescribed by law; and their warehouse to BDC as security for their loan. As (iii) if there are any workers of the above mentioned BDC, we took that warehouse after they closed down. companies who sought relief from the courts; That is why we know about them. Microlith had a and if so, what were the outcomes of such court place where they do their business, Lot 8899 and 8900 proceedings. at Selebi Phikwe. When they were leaving, some of their equipment was sold to another company which ASSISTANT MINISTER OF INVESTMENT, continued to operate at Selebi Phikwe. TRADE AND INDUSTRY (MR MOLEBATSI): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Investment, Trade and Industry So our Ministry does not have any information on is prepared to assist people with their business ideas whether their workers were paid properly or they got and give them support in terms of training as well as their gratuities accordingly. You can get that information show them that it is possible for their businesses to be from the Ministry of Labour, not from us. We also have successful. We also equip them with knowledge and no information on whether there is someone who took skills and teach them about requirements needed for a them to court on the basis that they were not paid or successful business. We give them ideas or skills such mistreated. Let me stop here Mr Speaker. Thank you. that whatever they produce; be it goods or services should be of a high standard. Above all, we sponsor MR NKAWANA: Supplementary. Thank you Mr their businesses or assist them with how they can get Speaker. I hear you Minister; you are saying that you loans more easily. do not have any information about them but these companies had tax relief. You are the one who gave it LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (MR SALESHANDO): On a point of order Mr Speaker. to them and they were using BDC factory shells. In this it seems like the Minister did not read the question situation, what is your role in finding their whereabouts? because he is responding to a different one. Question What are you doing to find their whereabouts since they number 11 talks about what happened to factory shells disappeared into thin air, leaving their workers stranded? machinery and other materials used by some companies Do you realise that there is no monitoring on the when they collapsed. He is not telling us about how they companies which apply for tenders from Government? assist businesses. Thank you.

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MR MOLEBATSI: Thank you Honourable. What I opportunities for the development of more tourism am saying is, we know the whereabouts of those who products just as it is the intention of Government. We left, those who were working with us. I am talking about have realised that we can provide many services there; companies who got a loan from us or were using our camping sites, build hotels and Community Based warehouses. So those who were making decisions on Organisations (CBOs) may also offer different services their own, nothing compels them to inform us about their for development of more tourism products there. As a decisions; when they intend to close their warehouse, ministry, we have decided to carry out close assessment their plans to improve their company or how they intend together with the Ministry of Lands to find out how to downsize. Thank you. they can best allocate plots along the river there. Having done that, we will be able to allocate Batswana ALTERNATIVE TOURISM PRODUCT AT especially those who are interested in doing business. MADIKWE RIVER This way, they will be in a position to consult people MR M. M. PULE (MOCHUDI EAST): Asked on our behalf in terms of developing of more tourism the Minister of Environment, Natural Resources products there. Let me point out that we never included Conservation and Tourism if she is aware that a section of services offered by that river in the plans because we the Community Based Natural Resources Management never considered those constituencies. They were not (CBNRM) along the Madikwe River on the Botswana budgeted for because we did not have money but as we side from Sikwane connecting to the Mashatu area are planning to develop tourism, we have considered presents huge opportunities for the development of more to include Kgatleng and all the identified areas like tourism products such as Eco-tourism, Agro-tourism, Madikwe. It will be included in next year’s plan in order Cultural tourism, Nature tourism; and if so, to state: we help those at the constituency so that they can offer (i) if her ministry has ever considered this area’s different services. Thank you Mr Speaker. potential as an alternative tourism product to the MR MAJAGA: Supplementary. Thank you Minister. Chobe River frontage given its ability to contain Honourable Pule, will have a peace of mind after mass tourism activities; and hearing your response. What efforts are you undertaking (ii) why such low hanging fruits have not been to ensure Batswana will be the first to benefit, they “harvested” to promote both domestic and should not see other people being allocated that land? international tourism given its strategic location When you look at the farms that side, the same system near the capital city (for hosting conferences and was employed, people are complaining because they other international activities) and its potential did not benefit whereas some did. What efforts are for Community Based Natural Resources you embarking on to ensure that those residing in the Management projects and other cultural tourism villages along the river are aware of such an excellent activities. and beneficial programme? Thank you.

MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, NATURAL MS KERENG: Thank you for that question. It is RESOURCES CONSERVATION AND TOURISM important but let me indicate that when such opportunities (MS KERENG): Thank you Mr Speaker. Good arise, we make a decision as the ministry that we are afternoon. Mr Speaker, the question is whether we are going to allocate citizens and trusts. When a potential not aware that a section of the Community Based Natural project or land is identified, we make a decision from Resources Management (CBNRM) along the Madikwe the onset as the ministry that we will be allocating to River from Madikwe connecting to the Mashatu area citizens, there will be what we call Expression of Interest presents huge opportunities for the development of (EoI) where companies will express their interest and more tourism products? My ministry is aware of the apply and we honour their interests. Furthermore, we opportunities presented to develop more tourism will be strengthening community trusts and offering products at Madikwe river at Kgatleng constituency; them assistance. We will also inform them that this Honourable Pule’s constituency. He is not feeling well programme is directed to them and start cultivating and I wish him a speedy recovery. We have already been their strength and uniting them. Trusts should be formed at Mashatu through the invitation from the Honourable and weak ones should be strengthened so that they can Member. We saw this river and indeed, it presents huge participate in these projects. Thank you.

8 Hansard No 200 Monday 14th December, 2020 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MS MONNAKGOTLA: Question 8 for Honourable storage and exacerbates water shortages. The village Thiite. community is engaged quarterly on wise-water use and water conservation measures through scheduled Kgotla WATER CRISIS IN QABO AND GROOTLAGTE meetings.

MR J. L. THIITE (GHANZI NORTH): asked the Mr Speaker, as a medium to long term solution, my Minister of Land Management, Water and Sanitation ministry through the Department of Water and Sanitation Services whether he is aware of a recurring water crisis has since undertaken geophysical investigation and sited in Qabo and Grootlagte; and if so, additional boreholes in the aforementioned villages, (i) what is the sustainable long term solution; and with the intention to drill four production boreholes per settlement and ultimately to connect to the water scheme. (ii) when he will address the crisis. Funds permitting, WUC will in the next financial year 2021/2022 drill the sited points in both villages. MINISTER OF LAND MANAGEMENT, WATER AND SANITATION SERVICES (MR MZWINILA): Mr Speaker, the water situation in both villages will be Mr Speaker, I am aware of the recurring water shortage addressed upon completion of borehole drilling during in Ghanzi North particularly Qabo and Grootlagte. The the 2021/2022 financial year. I thank you Mr Speaker. water demand for Qabo settlement is 75m3/day and the MS MONNAKGOTLA: Supplementary. Thank current supply is 36m3/day. This is an indication that you Mr Speaker and good afternoon Minister. Let me the village experiences water supply deficit of 329m / thank you. I hear you saying you are going to procure day. The water demand for Grootlagte is 95m3/day new engines but we are currently talking about people and the current supply is 39m3/day showing a deficit of 46m3/day. The two villages are supplied from a who are experiencing extreme water shortage, even shared borehole (BH9047) which yields 75m3/day. It is the bowsing Honourable Minister is not enough. They evident that the borehole is unable to meet the demand are human beings, and water is life Minister. So my of the two villages. The original borehole yield after question is what action are you taking to supply these drilling was 300m3/day in the year 1999, but it has since people with portable water to drink and bath because declined to the current yield due to being operated for they are currently facing water shortage? You are saying long hours to try to meet the demand of the two villages. that in the next financial year that is when you will The settlements experience acute water shortages during procure engines, what is the current solution Minister? borehole equipment failure or pipeline breakdown. To MR MZWINILA: Thank you Mr Speaker, thank you mitigate the circumstance, a water bowser is deployed Honourable Member. As I already explained, there is a to supply water during these breakdowns. long term solution regarding this challenge but currently Mr Speaker, it is worth noting that the borehole and we are bowsing and our challenge is that the number the pipeline have experienced numerous breakdowns of our bowsers does not meet the demand in Botswana over the months of October, November and December however we are trying by all means to at least supply of this year which has led to an interrupted supply to whatever little amount we have. It cannot be the desired both villages. The breakdowns are due to aged pipeline amount but that little amount will be supplied. Thank with limited air release valves which makes it prone you. to frequent burst. The engine was frequently breaking down because it was old and was operated for long hours MR KEKGONEGILE: Question 10 for Honourable to try and meet the water demand of the villages. To Hikuama. address the two issues, the Water Utilities Corporation (WUC) has since installed a new borehole engine at a STATUS OF BPSBC cost of BWP94, 000 and strengthened some of pipeline MR K. C. HIKUAMA (NGAMI): asked the Minister sections at an additional cost. for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Mr Speaker, it is also worth noting that water abuse Administration to update this Honourable House on for livestock watering is rampant at Grootlagte which the state of the Botswana Public Service Bargaining results in accelerated depletion of available water Council (BPSBC) and to further state:

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(i) the number of employees who worked at the with the relevant provisions of the Employment Act, BPSBC secretariat and positions held thereof; as read with the terms and conditions of employment for the PSBC Secretariat. Consequently, none of the (ii) whether the employees were redeployed to other staff was redeployed to any Government department/ Government Departments/Institutions; if not, institution. The affected employees were accordingly where have they been taken to; and paid their terminal benefits in the form of gratuity, up to (iii) what happened to the movable and immovable the date of retrenchment. property of the Council when it was disbanded in However, there is a former employee of the PSBC who 2017. applied for re-employment in the public service, and thereafter was offered employment on 1st ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL April 2019 after being subjected to the normal recruitment process. AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MR MTHIMKHULU): Mr Mr Speaker, the PSBC did not have any immovable Speaker, the Public Service Bargaining Council (PSBC) assets. All its movable properties such as motor is not a Government Entity, it is a creature of statute that vehicles, office furniture and equipment, as well as other is established in terms of Part XIII-Collective Bargaining valuable records were handed over by the then General in the Public Service (Sections 50-58) of the Public Secretary to the office of the Director of Public Service Service Act No. 30 of 2008. In terms of Section 52 “The Management (DPSM) for safe custody. In terms of the Council shall consist of representatives of Government financial assets, they are properly secured in oneof in its capacity as employer, and representatives of trade the commercial banks and the signatories of the bank unions admitted, in accordance with the Council’s accounts of the PSBC were accordingly removed from Constitution’’. accessing the finances of the council. What remains is for the parties which made up the former PSBC to reach The PSBC officially closed its business on the 28th consensus on what to do with the assets. I thank you Mr February 2018, following the decision by the only Speaker. representatives of trade unions, Botswana Federation of Public Sector Unions (BOFEPUSU) Acting MR KEKGONEGILE: Supplementary. Honourable Jointly Arrangement to terminate its membership, Minister, are there any attempts that have been made by and subsequent deregistration of the PSBC by the any of the two parties; Government and union parties Commissioner of Labour in accordance with the to meet and see how those remaining assets can be provision of Section 51 (5) of the Public Service Act No. dispensed? 30 of 2008. At the time of the deregistration of the PSBC, MR SPEAKER: Time is up. the employer was the only remaining party responsible for facilitating all the necessary administrative processes MR KEKGONEGILE: The second but last question to formally close its offices, including preservation of its is, you are saying Botswana Federation of Public physical and financial assets. Sector Unions (BOFEPUSU) terminated membership, that is why the Ministry of Labour has also terminated Mr Speaker, the Secretariat of the PSBC comprised of membership. Is it that way; is the Ministry of Labour five employees. Their positions were General Secretary/ or Government the one which issued the directive Principal Officer; Manager responsible for Collective that BOFEPUSU did not follow Statutory Instrument Bargaining and Disputes Resolution; Assistant Finance properly with formation and Labour terminated? Is it the Officer; Assistant Human Resource (HR) Officer; other way round or what? and Secretary/Receptionist. The two managerial staff were employed on fixed-term contracts while the non- MR MTHIMKHULU: I do not have its answer today managerial staff were employed on Permanent and to the question about whether BOFEPUSU or the Pensionable (P&P) terms. employer have talked about what they are going to do about the assets, because it was not initially asked. Mr Speaker, the persons that were employed at the Public Service Bargaining Council (PSBC) were PSBC The one on whether the Commissioner of Labour is the employees, employed by it. At the time of the closure of one that deregistered the PBSC or BOFEPUSU resigned PSBC, all the employees were retrenched in accordance first, I can tell you that BOFEPUSU as a group trade

10 Hansard No 200 Monday 14th December, 2020 STATEMENT: RESPONSE TO DR GOBOTSWANG’S UTTERANCES ON THE URGENT ISPAAD MOTION

union, have taken the decision to leave PBSC. After importance, then Honourable Gobotswang should they made that decision, PBSC collapsed and could be accorded the same privilege of presenting on that not function. The employer then saw that they could Motion, which was not allowed by the majority ruling not manage to continue because they could not bring party. It is only fair that way. another union to join PBSC. For it to join, there had to be the other party; the unions so that there could be MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, a council that can admit new members. That was not the Minister is not trying to respond to a Motion which possible. That is why the employer at the end of the was not discussed. As I had sight of her statement, she day found it necessary to approach the Commissioner is trying to respond to what Honourable Dr Gobotswang of Labour to say that the PBSC is not functioning and said, in trying to motivate this House to allow the Motion there is nothing we can do about it. For us to manage, to proceed. She is dealing with what Dr Gobotswang this Constitution has to be deregistered so that we get said, not what he was going to say with regard to the back to the drawing board, so that we can be able to look Motion because you cannot answer that one, you do not for the new partners to this Bargaining Council because know what he was going to say but only the bit which there were two partners; the employer and the employee he said, in trying to say, please allow me to present a representatives. Thank you Mr Speaker. Motion, only that part.

MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, MR SALESHANDO: Point of order. Mr Speaker, from I am afraid we have run out of time. Question number my recollection, this has never happened. Once the 12 which you were supposed to take Honourable House rejects the tabling of a Motion, that is the end Keorapetse, will go on to tomorrow. of the issue. The Minister had the option of allowing for the Motion to be debated, so that she could present STATEMENT her side, she now wants to present her side today after blocking the Motion. If you allow this, I can assure you Recently announced Guidelines for that Honourable Gobotswang will also approach your ISPAAD office for permission to make a statement later this ASSISTANT MINISTER OF AGRICULTURAL week on the same thing and it will result in the Motion DEVELOPMENT AND FOOD SECURITY (MS being debated. So either we cut it here or you permit MANAKE): I thank you Mr Speaker. Good afternoon it, knowing fully well that we will roll over in future days because he will also feel that the Minister may Honourable Members. Mr Speaker, the urgent Motion have misrepresented what he said and that could only be moved by Honourable Dr Gobotswang that this cleared through a debate that the Minister rejected. You Honourable House requests Government to reverse as cannot have your cake and eat it all. a matter of urgency, the recently announced guidelines for the Integrated Support Programme for Arable MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, Agriculture Development (ISPAAD)… I said I had sight of the statement and what it relates LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (MR to. It relates to what Honourable Dr Gobotswang said SALESHANDO): Point of order. Mr Speaker, this in trying to motivate the adjournment. Indeed, there is cannot be in order. The Minister is trying to respond to a nothing to stop Honourable Dr Gobotswang if he feels Motion that was never presented because we had to take that what the Minister is going to say misrepresents what a vote as to whether the Motion should be allowed on he said. There is nothing to stop him to try and find a urgency or not. The Minister is one of those who voted platform to state his position. I would not deny him that, against the Motion being presented, she cannot turn because that would be unfair, but it is strictly on that part around and now try to respond using this privilege to a not the Motion. Motion that she blocked from coming to the House. MS MANAKE: I thank you Mr Speaker. Let me MR KEORAPETSE: Further procedure. Thank you continue so that I can have time to interpret to Setswana Mr Speaker. I would like to associate myself with the so that Batswana ca understand me. The Ministry of views espoused by the Leader of the Opposition but also Agricultural Development and Food Security has noted to add and say, if the Minister is allowed to debate a with great concern some statements made by Honourable Motion which she voted that it was not of urgent public Dr Gobotswang which are incorrect, misleading and

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maybe viewed as correct by members of the public if they LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): are not corrected and captured appropriately on record. Point of procedure. Mr Speaker, I do not know what is Mr Speaker, during Honourable Dr Gobotswang’s causing confusion for the Honourable Members because submission there is a particular statement... the Honourable Minister, just like anyone in this House, is allowed to make a statement at any given time. So HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker. I am suggesting that we should allow her to make her MR SPEAKER: Honourable Ramogapi! I have just statement, we should listen to her, because it is here, we ruled that the Minister is not debating the Motion... will ask question based on what she will say. She was responding. We need to give her a chance because she HONOURABLE MEMBER: What is she doing? has a responsibility in the ministry, so she has to make a statement at any given time, whether Honourable Dr HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… Gobotswang’s Motion passed or not, she still deserves to MR SPEAKER: If only you would listen to her, then make a statement on Government position if she wants you will be able to critisise and ask her questions, then to. I thank you. you will know what she is saying. MS MANAKE: I thank you Mr Speaker, Honourable MR RAMOGAPI: Point of procedure. My dear Speaker, Members, we are wasting more time. Maybe we should I am trying to help you please. Where I am trying to assist read Standing Order 41.1.1 “the Speaker may after Mr Speaker, it does not only apply to you; Honourable assessing the statement refuse to allow the statement for Members, let us not confine the Speaker into a corner. the reasons that shall be communicated to the Minister” This issue is clear, when the Motion ended last time, the and when the Speaker does that, it means I can proceed. Also, 41. 2 reads, “a Minister may make a statement on Honourable Minister wanted to respond and she was some public matter for which he or she is responsible barred from speaking because it was said the procedure for” and that is exactly what I am doing, clarifying is that it has been closed. Now she is doing a rebuttal things so that we do not mislead people. I thank you, so through a loophole Mr Speaker. If we can do things this let me continue. way, using up the time meant for Government business, which is already not enough; we are chasing after the Mr Speaker, during Dr Gobotswang’s submission, there Government business. I just want to make a request is a particular incorrect statement which he stated that subleasing and/or subdivisions are not allowed under because if we do this, we are provoking one another; the new Integrated Support Programme for Arable another Member is also going to say ‘I am also coming Agriculture Development (ISPAAD) guidelines and as with mine,’ so where are we going to get the time for a result disadvantaged youth, women and the general that? You are trying to guide us well Mr Speaker and you public who do not own ploughing fields to benefit from are ensuring that we are free, exercising our democracy. the ISPAAD programme, this is misleading, and very You do not want to appear as if you are tyrannical. That malicious. Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Agricultural is just the request that I wanted to put across Mr Speaker. Development and Food Security therefore wishes to I thank you. refute the above and make it clear and reiterate the fact that neither now nor in the past has the subleasing LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (MR and subdivisions been excluded under ISPAAD or the SALESHANDO): Point of order. I just want to draw current transitioning ISPAAD programme. That is to say, your attention that it is indeed true, when we concluded subleasing and subdivision of ploughing fields is allowed this Motion last time, the Minister attempted to make a under an organised structure to curb irregularities which statement she is presenting today, she tried to respond. were experienced in the past. Farm inputs in the form of seeds, fertilizers, herbicides and draught power are A ruling was made that she could not respond because still prescribed under the revised guidelines during the it was closed. A ruling was made, so if you are opening transition of ISPAAD and are also to be supplied in a window for her to be able to respond, it would mean subdivided filed portions. you are reversing an earlier ruling against the Minister. So last time it was procedure, so today what she wanted Mr Speaker, this is contrary to what Honourable to say last time, she is bringing it through a statement, it Dr Gobotswang submitted as part of his reasoning is bypassing a ruling that has been made. That cannot be while moving an urgent Motion to reinstate the old right Mr Speaker. ISPAAD guidelines. As a ministry, we have encouraged

12 Hansard No 200 Monday 14th December, 2020 STATEMENT: RESPONSE TO DR GOBOTSWANG’S UTTERANCES ON THE URGENT ISPAAD MOTION

subdivisions to maximise agricultural land utilisation of Oath as prescribed by the laws of Botswana such to ensure food sufficiency. Through the ISPAAD re- as Dikgosi, District Commissioners, police officers, engineering, the Government will re-align ploughing lawyers etcetera. This form is to be accompanied by a fields and a database will be made available for leasing ploughing field certificate to prevent amongst others of agricultural land for other Batswana who are not yet in a practice of multiple subleasing of the same piece of production, so those who are ready to produce can access land, which has been picked up during the monitoring it for productivity purposes. Mr Speaker, the Ministry and evaluation of the programme. of Land Management, Water and Sanitation Services is already complaining that most of the ploughing fields Mr Speaker, it is also worth noting that a communication th that they have allocated remain unutilised while other was sent out on the 18 November 2020 to all the Ministry Batswana are in dire need for agricultural land, thus we of Agricultural Development and Food Security offices encourage the utilisation of unused land. Mr Speaker, a and stations across the country, guiding on how the statement as submitted by Honourable Dr Gobotswang subleasing and or subdivisions should be carried out and needed to be corrected as it has the potential to mislead also clarify the use of land under transitioning guidelines, members of the public by making them believe that so that Batswana do not miss out on the opportunity of the revised guidelines are not good for the growth of benefitting from the Integrated Support Programme for the industry. While in actual fact it is restructuring Arable Agriculture Development (ISPAAD) programme the ISPAAD programme for sustainable agricultural in the ploughing season 2020-2021 hence contributing production, which will not only ensure food security to the food basket of Botswana. but economic gains for Batswana in rural areas where I will translate it to Setswana… poverty and unemployment rates are still very high. MR KEORAPETSE: On a point of procedure Mr Mr Speaker, I do not mean to resubmit the response, but Speaker. Mr Speaker, I take it that the Minister has for all intends and purposes it is important that for the chosen a language and I do not think that the time that record these facts are known and captured accordingly. is allocated the Minister is somewhat ad libitum. So, if The recently pronounced guidelines are meant to effectively utilise the limited financial resources during you choose a language you stick to it; Standing Order the COVID-19 pandemic period hence the reduction of 15.1. I do not think it will be fair in the interest of time. hectarage from five hectares to four hectares which was She has chosen that language. She could have spoken in informed by an ISPAAD programme evaluation and Setswana. We need to quickly dispense of with the issue. the pledge to review it. The findings of the evaluations stated that on average more subsistence farmers plough MR SPEAKER: Indeed, we are pressed for time. I did between two to three hectares on most seasons since not think she was going to read another statement now in inception of the programme. This is for them to be able Setswana. I thought she was summarising in Setswana to better manage their crops. The guidelines are meant what she has read in English. Summarise, not read. We to reduce the leakages which come at a great cost to would spend the whole day here. What I want, especially Government. They are meant to grow and support the Dr Gobotswang, is for you to listen, because when the local fertiliser manufacturing industry as restrictions statement started, you have been quoted as if you are the would be instituted soon indefinitely, under the infancy excuse. I am saying this so that when it is time to ask industry policy after all due diligence is completed. questions, you will be the first one to be entitled to ask questions for clarity so that when you think about what Mr Speaker, these guidelines are also making to say, you would have asked a question. Honourable accessibility of ISPAAD horticulture subsidy easier than Minister, short summary. it was before to increase vegetable production under protection to avert climate change effects. The subsidy MS MANAKE: Thank you Mr Speaker. Our statement would be administered by Citizen Entrepreneurial today was just trying to emphasise that last time when Development Agency (CEDA) and we are in the process Honourable Dr Gobotswang moved his Motion under of completing the application guidelines. certificate of urgency, the Motion in which he said we should withdraw the decisions that we have taken as the Mr Speaker, to manage and control the subleasing of Government to try and revise the ISPAAD programme, the fields in the 2021 ploughing season, the ministry has there are some points which he raised which could designed a subleasing form in the format of an affidavit, mislead or confuse the nation hence the nation of which can be administered by all Commissioners Botswana would end up being lost.

Hansard No 200 13 Monday 14th December, 2020 STATEMENT: RESPONSE TO DR GOBOTSWANG’S UTTERANCES ON THE URGENT ISPAAD MOTION

We want to explain to Batswana or Dr Gobotswang that Let me point out that on the 18th November 2020, no, it is not like that. Subleasing or subdivisions are communication was sent out to all the Ministry of allowed under the new Integrated Support Programme Agricultural Development and Food Security officers for Arable Agriculture Development (ISPAAD, it was explaining how subletting of land is going to be allowed in the old programme as well as the revised one. conducted this year. Thank you Mr Speaker. So we do not want that, we do not want people to miss the opportunity to plough during this season. MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, we should allow as I indicated short questions for the The other thing that we have to highlight is that as purpose of clarification, not for debating. There is no Ministry of Agricultural Development and Food debate. Security, we noticed that most of the ploughing fields which have been allocated by Ministry of Lands DR GOBOTSWANG: Thank you Mr Speaker. Management, Water and Sanitation Services are not Honourable Minister, the lament here is that when you being utilised, especially land which has been allocated have an eight hectares ploughing field, the Government for agricultural activities. We strongly encourage people will plough those hectares free of charge. Are you to sublet land so that we can produce enough food to saying that I can sublet four hectares to someone and feed Batswana. the Government will plough for him/her freely? That is the issue here. Is it possible for the Government to The other thing is to explain that the revised guidelines plough for me and also plough for the other person will help us to permanently improve this programme. who I have given a division or some hectares of my The studies that we have carried out indicate that most field to? The complaint back at the constituencies is of Batswana plough two to three hectares because it is in relation to what is happening on the ground. There easy for them to manage or to weed them. The other is nothing else. What the guideline is stating is totally thing is that these guidelines will assist us not to have a different from what is happening on the ground. Clarify high trend of corruption in this programme and if there this issue, confirm it so that tomorrow when they go to is corruption, this programme will soon appear useless. the agricultural demonstrators, they would get the same These guidelines will assist us going forward. statement that you are giving here Minister.

This programme will help us to grow and support the Secondly, your guidelines were communicated on the 18th November but the ploughing season started local fertilizer manufacturing industry. We are still during the first week of October. Minister. Do you working tirelessly to see how we can grow this industry see it appropriate that you waited all this time only to and be able to be self-sufficient as far as food production communicate the revised guidelines in the middle of is involved. the ploughing season? Is that right? The confusion is There are other programmes like ISPAAD horticulture, caused by the fact that there was no consultation. That is these guidelines are also making accessibility of the issue. Iron out these issues for people to understand ISPAAD horticulture subsidy easier than it was before them so that we do not receive countless phone calls because in the past, the budget used to be returned even from farmers saying something totally different from though people have to be assisted. This will also ensure what you are saying. The Government should clarify that we increase vegetable production under shade nets these things so that the nation can benefit from your protection to avert climate change effects. The forms failing programmes. Thank you. are there, they are available at all our offices across MR SPEAKER: That is a very good question Dr the country. We have instructed our officers to see how Gobotswang. they can assist you. Subleasing form in the format of an affidavit can be administered by all Commissioners MS MANAKE: Thank you Mr Speaker. Yes, Honourable of Oath as prescribed by the laws of Botswana such Dr Gobotswang. when you have eight hectares, and then Dikgosi, District Commissioners, Police officers and someone sublets four hectares, as long as you meet all lawyers. When you go and collect this form, it has to be the requirements; form an affidavit and the certificate accompanied by a ploughing field certificate to prevent that proves that indeed that is your ploughing field as amongst others a practice of multiple subleasing of the well as its hectares, he or she can use that division and same piece of land. the Government will assist you or plough for you so

14 Hansard No 200 Monday 14th December, 2020 STATEMENT: RESPONSE TO DR GOBOTSWANG’S UTTERANCES ON THE URGENT ISPAAD MOTION

that you can harvest something. It is straightforward a tight budget but farmers who benefit from ISPAAD like that. We will also try and talk to the Agricultural know that the deadline for registration is end of July. We demonstrators to ensure that they understand this issue. cannot say it was affected by our guidelines, no, that is We do not want people to frequently go back looking not true. We will continue to see what we can do. I thank at the period we are in of COVID. It is not safe to have you Mr Speaker. people crowding a place or going back frequently. MR MOTSAMAI: Mr Speaker, let me put it this way, I agree with you that guidelines came late and I have Honourable Minister, what you are saying that you already apologised for that. It was a difficult decision consulted people, I want to confirm to you that people for Government to make. We want to develop Motswana are complaining that they were not consulted. How sustainably. We cannot continue with a programme many constituencies did you consult? When? Where and which we can see that it is wasting resources with when did you consult Dikgosi and Village Development Batswana not benefitting anything. That is why we Committees (VDCs)? made a decision to discontinue some things. We cannot proceed with a programme we can see that there is a lot Lastly, have you communicated that information to field of misuse of Government resources. Like you said in demonstrators? Sometimes it becomes very difficult to your conclusion Honourable Gobotswang, you said this implement if you have not communicated with them. programme is useless, so we are modifying it so that it Have you communicated this in writing or it is verbal can be useful to Batswana. That is what we are doing. communication? Are you going to communicate in We are working on it and we are going to succeed. I writing? I ask that you put that information into writing thank you Mr Speaker. and send it to constituencies so that people can be assisted madam. MR MOTAOSANE: Thank you sir. Honourable Minister, we heard you. However, I was saying maybe MS MANAKE: Thank you Mr Speaker. The information you need to clear any confusion because news were all I am giving, I am writing it and also speaking it. We will over that you cannot sublease. Majority of people did also go around and advise them on what to do. not manage to register for seeds because they were not sure if it will be possible to get subleased ploughing On the issue of how many constituencies were consulted, fields. Right now people are in trouble since they did not we said it in our Manifesto on Page 25. We said that we register for seeds. Last time after it was extended, some are going to bring a transformed ISPAAD with results. had just recently heard that you can use subleased fields We have started doing that. People have heard us, they and therefore they can go and register. What is your also want us to implement that because they have noted take on that? Can you not make a decision to supply that the current ISPAAD is wasteful and does not benefit them with seeds so that they can go and plough since it is now clear that they can use subleased fields? People them that much. We have started and like I have said have managed to secure subleased fields but they do not Honourable Motsamai, we will continue engaging have seeds. What is your take on that? Can you not do you as Honourable Members. We will also consult something about it? There are so many because most Honourable Reatile’s committee on how we can bring people always survive by securing subleased fields. a revamped ISPAAD. Maybe consulting a lot can waste Thank you. time and we will not even be able to plough and feed MS MANAKE: Thank you Mr Speaker. Honourable ourselves while we are busy consulting. What we can Motaosane, this is how Integrated Support Programme manage to do which does not hurt anyone and can bring for Arable Agriculture Development (ISPAAD) works about positive results, we will make necessary decisions and even farmers understand how it works, that July on it. I thank you Mr Speaker. 31st is deadline for ISPAAD registration. By end of July, there were 93 000 people registered. If these people MR LEUWE: Thank you Mr Speaker, good afternoon. had managed to secure subleased fields, no one could Thank you Honourable Minister for that explanation. It stop them as long as they followed the requirements I is clear that people were confused. mentioned. Right now they are crying at my constituency because These ones of two weeks extension are the only ones who of coupons. People crowd the offices and they are told could be considered. The funds we have were enough that they have been given a quota of 30 per day yet for the 93 000 we had, and others. We are working with they are from different areas. My question is, how can

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they be assisted since they have tilled the land? They MR SPEAKER: If it is that long, I am afraid. What have cultivated but they have not been given coupons we could ask you though is that if you can ask your that allow them to go and purchase seeds. Honourable officials to make a write-up, I am sure Dr Tshabang can Minister, please respond to that. share it with his colleagues. It is exactly 3:55 p.m. How does that improve the yield? I thought I understood but MS MANAKE: Thank you Mr Speaker and thank you Honourable Members would like to know. The Leader Honourable Leuwe. In the morning after we discussed of the House has a Business Motion to move. this matter, we went back to District Agricultural Coordinator (DAC) to speed up the placement of BUSINESS MOTION temporary officers so that they can go and assist more people in a day. Again where transport is available, we LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): want to go to people. We will be at Dikgotla, they should Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I rise to move in go there and be assisted so that they can go and plough. I terms of Standing Order 27.1 (b) that the sitting of the thank you Mr Speaker. Assembly be extended from 1800 hours to 1830 hours on 14th, 15th and 16th December 2020. Mr Speaker, the MR REATILE: Thank you Mr Speaker. I thank the reason for this proposal is to allow for timely disposal of Honourable Minister for the statement she has just all business before the August House. I move accordingly made. Honourable Minister, what I want to understand Mr Speaker. I believe they are going to agree with this is, are you aware that the guidelines clash with what is one because it is only 30 minutes. I thank you. happening on the ground? Right now you are telling people that they should come with soil tests from the Question put and agreed to. accredited companies yet your ministry does not have MR SPEAKER: It means that you are going to knock a list of companies which you have accredited and their off at 6:30 p.m. instead of 6 p.m. Let us move on to the number. Again Honourable Minister, can you furnish us Motions. with contact details of the right person and the contact person at your ministry who when contacted can make HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… decisions of what is happening at Parakarungu or Middle East? You know that we always tell you some CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) BILL, things, you are also submissive as Ministers, and you do 2020 (NO. 14 OF 2020) not make any decision. Now it seems like you are in a Second Reading workshop. Thank you. (Resumed Debate) MS MANAKE: Thank you Mr Speaker. I will request that all you are asking for be given to this House and MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, the debate Batswana so that they know how many accredited on this Bill is resuming. When the House adjourned companies of soil tests are there, together with contact on Wednesday last week, Honourable Brooks was on details of contact persons who can be contacted anytime the floor debating and he was left with 16 minutes 39 if need be. We have an emergency number that you can seconds. Honourable Brooks! reach us at. It is 17555. I thank you Mr Speaker. HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… DR TSHABANG: Thank you Mr Speaker. Minister, I have not heard your explanation on reducing from MR SPEAKER: He is not here? The floor is open. five hectares to four. What are you improving in that? How are you solving corruption with only five hectares; MR MOATLHODI (TONOTA): …(Inaudible)… moving from five hectares to four hectares? Can you to thank you Honourable Speaker for giving me the elaborate that point? opportunity to respond to the Bill that was placed before us. MS MANAKE: Thank you Mr Speaker. This question is long so perhaps Dr Tshabang can bring it as a detailed I believe we have more than 10 politicians who crossed question so that I can elaborate it to him, otherwise it will over to other parties ever since we gained independence waste our time as you have ruled that we are proceeding in 1965. I, Honourable Morwaeng and many others. I with other businesses at half past, unless you allow me am wondering why it took us 55 years to realise that it is to continue with it Mr Speaker. important to treat our voters well.

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Oxford English Dictionary defines politics as activities always allowed freedom of association. We have always aimed at improving someone’s status within an allowed freedom of worship and many other freedoms. organisation. Simply put and by comparison standard, Are we aware that today if we say we do not want floor- new politics in Africa are treated like a brewing ground. crossing, we are taking away the freedom we are so In the years 1939 and 1945, a certain man from England popular for, are we restricting it? If a politician crosses who was called Sir Winston Churchill, crossed over the floor, he is going to enhance his new political party. from Labour Party to the Conservative. Members of the That party is going to gather new ideas. Conservative Party realised that he is a potential leader, priceless, a great orator and has good leadership skills. There were once communists in Botswana while some They took him as a nominee for a Prime Minister. Sir were democrats. As time went by, they realised that Winston Churchill ended up winning elections even communism is not working for them, then they changed though he crossed over from the opposition to the ruling to be democrats. After some time, the said democracy party. He was indeed one of the best Prime Ministers; Sir is not in their interest. They realised that they were Winston Churchill. He did that because of his political naturally communists and today we say this is not viable ability. He also managed to revive the Conservative Honourable Members. Keep what you know to yourself. Party and they won the elections because of Sir Winston Dr Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela, the elected President of Churchill. The Conservative Party started having many South Africa in 1994, may his soul rest in peace said, members just because of the arrival of Sir Winston “leaders that surround themselves with politicians that Churchill, politics. are devoid of the ability to propel changes, their parties The late Sir Ketumile Joni Masire, may his soul rest in are as good as dead,” simply put! A political leader peace, in 1988, he officially opened National Council should be surrounded by people who advise him. Dr of Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) at Denman Rural Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela said if a leader is surrounded Training Centre at Sebele and mentioned that politics by people who never advise him, then politics is dead. are about numbers. So, the Conservative started having A lot of countries learnt politics from us as Botswana, many members because of the political ability of Sir countries like South Africa, Namibia and Malawi are Winston Churchill. Politics is about hard work, the some of them. They gained independence after us but ability to work with other people correctly, relevantly today we are regressing. There is none of us who can and succinctly. stand and say when Honourable Kabo Morwaeng left Botswana National Front (BNF) to a certain party, Even in Setswana Honourable Speaker, after ploughing a field for a long time, there comes a time where it there were fights which caused serious conflicts among requires some fertiliser for more production. Likewise, people. There is no one who can say that. I am using whenever a potential politician crosses over from one him as an example, he is my younger brother and I take party to the other, they revive that particular party. The pride that Honourable Kabo Morwaeng is one of the late Ratsie Setlhako also said that they are like good salt people I taught politics. I take pride in him, Honourable which is worthy to be added to some vegetables. He also Molao and Honourable Mmolotsi, they are many. I have said change is inevitable. got products in this Parliament and Botswana at large. Today you are saying no to so many changes we are When our country gained independence, our leader of experiencing, let us not be retrogressive. No Honourable the time Sir Seretse Khama, may his soul rest in peace, he found Batswana keeping poor cattle breeds. Sir Seretse Members, we have to be progressive in order for our Khama realised that Batswana love to keep cattle, so he constituencies to develop. A leader should always decided to improve our cattle breeds. Indeed, we started come up with ideas. Honourable Members, I wish that keeping special breeds like Brahman, Santa Gertrudis Shashemooke could have two schools, I am giving an and Limousin. It was because we had to improve our example Mr Speaker. I want to see the third university of cattle breeds. We have to check if our politicians can Botswana to be built at Mmandunyane village but today revive our politics. we are being retrogressive. Mr Speaker, I think this Motion is regressing our country, so our argument is, let Our country, the Republic of Botswana, we are called us go back to the drawing board Honourable Members. the jewel of Africa. Some once called us the jewel of We should carry out a new national referendum. This is Africa and a shining example of Africa because we the issue I am submitting this afternoon…

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MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Clarification. me, “if one day people turn against you, go back and Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you Nkamo’s father for introspect.” So let us go back and introspect and see how yielding. Honourable Member, I hear you giving an we can revive our political parties and constituencies. I example of cattle and developments, so in your view, will continue to talk about His Excellency Masire all is this not development? Voters and candidate agreed my life, “if you vote for incompetent people, you will that he goes to Parliament under this political party, so live with them for five years.” You now want us to if he wants to now cross the floor, do you not think it is retrogress. People should live with incompetent people development to give the voters the opportunity to renew for five years. No Honourable Members, I am begging, their relationship? Thank you. let us retract, our country is progressing. We should stop regressing our country which is so well developed. MR MOATLHODI: Thank you Honourable Member I completely disagree with this Motion. I was taught for Parliament for Gaborone Central. Let me set myself politics by the first people to lead this country. I know as an example; you can go and do your own research, what is right for this country. This is one of the wrongs I was voted with no reservations. Some said they are that we are trying to advocate for this country. I am voting for the candidate of the Umbrella for Democratic requesting, I am pleading Honourable Members, across Change (UDC), but the majority said they are voting for the aisle, let us go back; everyone is entitled to their Nkamo’s father. I still remember that in Tonota Central, own opinion, it is not wrong that someone moved this I can even mention the homesteads I visited where they Motion, let him withdraw it so that we can assess it said, “we are voting for you, irrespective of the party you properly. I thank you Honourable Speaker. are representing because we are aware of your ability. We are voting for you because we know your character, HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR we are aware of your capability.” So Honourable TSOGWANE): Thank you Mr Speaker. I will be brief Members I want to apprise you about that situation since we do not have much time, we have important and I am not the only one, we can even research from laws that people are waiting for, similar to this one, so other constituencies to see how people were voted. The we have to give them the opportunity so that they can majority of us here were voted for our own candidacy, change their lives in future. that I am going to vote for Buti Billy because I know that if I knock at his house at half past 9 at night and say Let me start by thanking all those who responded, those my child has been bitten by a scorpion, he can assist. I who agreed and those who disagreed. That is how a am using him as an example, nkadzi wa she. We were democracy is. Let me indicate Mr Speaker that this law voted based on that. That is the modern politics; we vote does not belong to anyone here… a candidate we know and their strength. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Bill. Please Honourable Members, this country has to progress and lead people under freedom as our country MR TSOGWANE: This Bill Nkamo’s father, who is is popular for freedom. Freedom of spirit, speech and a veteran politician, does not belong to anyone here. It mindset; but today you want to restrict our mind-sets. In is evident that it is a Bill of national interest. It is the Zimbabwe ‘restrict’ means, tying limbs of the donkey opinion of a voter who spent the whole sunny day to and it is a criminal offence. Today you want to restrict vote, and at the end of the day as a party member or not, our movement like we restrict the movement of donkeys he or she voted knowing that I am electing this certain at Tonota and Mmadinare, no Honourable Members. party into power and not this one. You might wonder that the argument is that this Motion We have realised Mr Speaker that all the time, the was tabled 22 years go. 22 years ago! Today’s politics is voice of a voter is never heard. Even when they are different from 22 years ago. What is the reason? There complaining, they are never heard. Let me thank Mrs is an English saying, “if you love her, let her go. If she Kokorwe for that time when she listened and had a comes back to you, you must know she has always been conscience, realising that it is important for the voice meant to be yours. If she does not come back, forget of a voter and their vote to be protected. The situation about her.” we have been in is whereby, for people to continue If we are afraid that we are going to lose seats, we have voting in many numbers, as there has been a decline, to endure. His Excellency Ketumile Joni Masire, may what is called voter apathy in English, because people his soul rest in peace, taught me politics and said to no longer have trust on candidates, the trust that if they

18 Hansard No 200 Monday 14th December, 2020 CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2020 (NO. 14 OF 2020) Second Reading (Resumed Debate)

vote for someone, is that candidate really taking their for all the parties, Members of Parliament and voters. wishes into consideration. So that on its own brings the The playing field will be levelled because now it will morale of voters down. When someone votes, they are not only focus on whether you are a candidate, voter or not determined to vote, they just know that they might party. That is a very good arrangement. regret it in future. Before I conclude Honourable Members, let me indicate Some members are saying this Bill took a long time. That that issues of floor crossing are all over the newspapers is how it is Honourable Members, we will be known as and that makes other people happy. It was written a Parliament that made changes. We have to be known not so long ago that Members of Parliament of the as a transformative Parliament. This Bill has long been BDP will call their Chairperson who is myself, to talk there and we had to take the decision to protect voters about floor crossing. Those reports from the Weekend and their voice in this 12th Parliament. Honourable Post newspaper are not true, but since we know that Members, the voter needs to have the power of the vote it is a newspaper that most of the time does not report and know that they will benefit from their vote. That is facts, that did not bother us. There are no Members of what is important in politics. We cannot talk about this Parliament of the BDP caucus who have called me to the whole day as I have explained that voters at home go and complain that people are leaving. Whoever is are speaking out. Even not so long ago before this Bill leaving Honourable Members, he or she will be leaving came to Parliament, people were commenting about this according to their will, which means that he or she Bill on the radio. Some people indicated that it has been was never the right person from the beginning. So the delayed and the way they spoke, they indicated that it newspapers should not report on things that are not true. could have been implemented at the time it was drafted. I strongly support this Bill Mr Speaker. It will help us, Batswana are impressed about that. Let us not deny and it will bring stability to voters` feelings. It will give them happiness because we are focusing on our wishes voters a lot of confidence on their leaders. Thank you Honourable Members. Let us focus on the wishes of Mr Speaker as I have already said time is not on our people at home. side. This Bill will not be a disadvantage to anyone, and it MR KEORAPETSE (SELEBI PHIKWE WEST): will not be a disadvantage to a Member of Parliament. It also does not deny a Member of Parliament any of his Thank you Mr Speaker. I stand to oppose the Constitution or her rights. If a Member of Parliament believes that (Amendment) Bill, 2020 (No. 14 of 2020) as presented things are not working out for the people that voted for by the Minister in the Presidency. The Bill is about him or her, he or she has the right to go back to them amendment of Section 68 of the Constitution following and give feedback. This is very important because not what the Minister said was a Motion tabled in August or all of us consider the feelings of voters when we fulfil adopted in August 1998, tabled by Honourable Gladys ours. So no one’s right is being violated. Like we were Kokorwe, then Member for Thamaga. saying that after five years people can make a decision, and really people are bound to get angry in five years, Mr Speaker, the Government and indeed the ruling party like Nkamo’s father has been saying, quoting the likes take a position that, save for independent candidates, of Mr Masire that at that time they were saying that if Botswana Electoral Laws are such that the candidate you have voted for a stump, we will just put it here, who during election chooses voting colours and symbol and you will have to live with it for that time. So that is of a political party is deemed to be a candidate for that what happened. So let us focus on the fact that this Bill political party. A Member of Parliament (MP) should does not really belong to any party, it was drafted for the lose his or her seat upon resigning from the party. We voter because every other party cannot wait to increase were told Mr Speaker that the Law Reform Committee their numbers with wrong votes after the elections. consulted Batswana in 32 centres around the country and That will not impress anyone or the party. We take it the Minister alleges that there was unanimous decision. that we are elected, elections are held once in five years, so after people have voted, if there are those who want MR SPEAKER: Honourable Keorapetse, I am afraid to have re-elections many times, they will do that and we have to run away and try to comply with COVID-19 voters will be judges of that. Let us not stress about this rules. Honourable Members, let us adjourn for 30 Bill because it is good, it is straight-forward, it is good minutes.

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PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED AT 4:04 P.M. In 1998, the Botswana National Front (BNF) split and FOR APPROXIMATELY 30 MINUTES eleven MPs left to form the Botswana Congress Party PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 4:34 P.M. (BCP). It was convenient then, for Batswana to be told or sold a story that it is evil to “run away with peoples` “EXCHANGE OF SPEAKERSHIP” seats” as BCP MPs had done. After the BCP and BNF MR SPEAKER (MR MOATLHODI): Pray be seated! lost the 1999 polls, the ruling party completely forgot about the issue for almost a decade. After a major split HONOURABLE MEMBER: Please take your seats in 2010, with the formation of the Botswana Movement Honourable Members. for Democracy (BMD) and a loss of some MPs to the opposition, the issue was exhumed by the BDP. When MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Good afternoon Honourable Members. it became clear that some MPs who had defected were backtracking, again the issue was abandoned for almost …Silence… another decade.

MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members. I wish to quote D. K. Kwelagobe, this is in Mmegi When we broke for some COVID-19 protocols, the Online. Honourable Member for Selebi Phikwe West was holding the floor. He still has to himself a quota of 18 MR SPEAKER: Please do. minutes 29 seconds. MR KEORAPETSE: The article captures what MR KEORAPETSE: Thank you Mr Speaker. Let me Honourable D. K. Kwelagobe then said when debating continue and say that according to the Minister in the this Bill more than a decade ago actually. “I wonder Presidency, the objective of the Bill is to “safeguard what is going on, barring people from expressing their people’s interests, nurture our democracy and cultural feelings by floor-crossing,” said Kwelagobe. “When principles of consensus reckoning.” So, according to the the sponsor of the Bill, Lebonaamang Mokalake, who Bill Mr Speaker, as I have said, once a sitting Councillor is also Local Government Minister asked Kwelagobe if or Member of Parliament (MP) decides to leave their he is also considering the people who voted for him, the party, a vacancy results, causing a by-election. Mr latter responded, meaning Kwelagobe, my emphasis, Speaker, our contention from this side of the aisle is that “I do not know what the Minister is saying. If I leave priority should have been given to the much promised to join the BMD, I do not leave my constituents. I comprehensive Constitutional review. We contend that still remain their representative, representing their there is no reason for a piecemeal amendment when a interests,” he said. He said there are instances where Constitutional review process is underway, unless of one may be forced to leave the party, especially if faced course the ruling party wants to play its usual games of with persecution from some party members. He said empty promises. We are worried Mr Speaker, when you there is no logic in the Government Bill. Kwelagobe look at the trajectory of our democracy, it has been in the said, “Government should be concerned about Members habit of the ruling party to amend the Constitution for of Parliament and Councillors who are not performing petty political expediency. For instance, when it became and not representatives who cross the floor. He said if clear to President Masire that his then Deputy; Mr Councillors or MPs are fired for crossing the floor, this Festus Mogae could not marshal a contest to the extent will create serious financial dent in Government coffers of winning against the Kwelagobe/Kedikilwe faction, as there will be a lot of by-elections.” This is a Mmegi his political party introduced automatic succession article, it is available online. of the Vice President once there is a vacancy in the Office of the President. Today, the ruling party is here So Mr Speaker, when it became clear as I said that and we know that in the past few years, they amended some of the BDP MPs were backtracking and going the Constitution again to increase Specially Elected back to the ruling party, the Bill was abandoned or the Members of Parliament (MPs) from four to six. envisaged reform was abandoned for almost a decade. In many peoples` opinions and indeed our opinion, the So as indicated Mr Speaker, this issue is not new and it anti-defection proposal that we are discussing today is has been following a trend which we have observed. The being resuscitated because of political development, trend has been that when there is a political development in part, the formation of the Botswana Patriotic Front which may hamper the ruling party, this matter crops up. (BPF) which is bleeding the ruling party in the Central

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District and internal issues in the ruling party. This is unfair process of Motion of no confidence in which not entirely denied by the ruling party in that they argue everyone who has been voted will lose their seats if it that both Government and parties would be stabilised by passes. You can ask, why should the whole Parliament prohibition of floor-crossing. go because an unelected President has been removed? The point is, there is no remedy that exists to remove a Mr Speaker, I wish to speak to the reliance on Kgotla President before the next elections. meetings which were held 22 years ago. Mr Speaker, there is no empirical evidence to substantiate a view Now, from the other side of the aisle, they were that Batswana support anti-defection laws. Absolutely pointing to several countries in which this law is in none! Even anecdotal evidence was never presented practice. They cited Nepal, Uganda, Nigeria, Singapore, in this House to substantiate the argument marshalled Zimbabwe, Namibia, Seychelles, Sierra Leone amongst by the ruling party led by Honourable Morwaeng who others. Firstly, Mr Speaker, some of the countries cited presented the Bill, so reliance cannot be placed on use the system of Proportional Representation which those meetings which happened decades ago. Even the the Leader of the Opposition cogently articulated census, how many have been there since 1998? How when he debated this Motion, that it is compatible with many people were born since 1998? Those who were prohibition of floor crossing. It is only fair that if it is born in 1998 are 22 years old, they are even voters and Proportional Representation of the list system when a have been voters for almost more than five years ago, party wins a percentage of the popular vote, it brings a there about. list proportionate to its popular vote. It is only fair Mr Speaker that when MP decides to cross the floor, he or We contend that if the governing party cares so much she hands the seat back to the party that has given it to about democracy and the interests of the people, they them. It is only fair that way. will be proposing democratic reforms instead. Secondly Mr Speaker, when you look at some of the Direct election of the President, and why do we say countries cited, Nepal, Uganda, Nigeria, Singapore, direct election of the President, not just because it is a Zimbabwe and others, except that others here have not so democratic process within which political office should long ago emerged from serious undemocratic systems. be constituted but because Batswana are saying so. If you take Nepal, it only became a serious democracy Why do we say Batswana are saying so? It is because in 2008 after almost more than 240 years of monarchy. of the recent Afrobarometer surveys. That is empirical Uganda, we know what is happening in Uganda. It is evidence. not a democracy that one can say they want to emulate...

Questions were asked Mr Speaker, from the other side HONOURABLE MEMBER: It does not even smell like democracy. of the aisle on the fairness to the electorate. If the ruling party is fair to the electorate, they should not be bringing MR KEORAPETSE: It does not even look or smell Primary and General Election losers as Specially Elected like democracy Mr Speaker… MPs and Councillors. We agree that this is Constitutional, but we contend that it is not right and fair. There seems HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Laughter!)… to be a widely held perception from the other side of MR KEORAPETSE: I say this because after it the aisle that legal means right. Slavery, apartheid were emerged from independence, Apollo Milton Obote was legal and so is this system of electing Specially Elected deposed by Alhaji Idi Amin Dada who ruled Uganda MPs and Councillors, including those that lost in the for about eight years under military dictatorship. What general and primary elections. Why is there no recall happened? Obote was assisted by Mwalimu Nyerere to clause for the least performing MPs or Councillors as go back into power again dethroning Idi Amin. Obote Mr Kwelagobe had indicated when debating a similar was again deposed by a man who is still President of Bill more than a decade ago? How can a party claiming Uganda today in 1986, Yoweri Museveni who has been to be protecting the voters not safeguard their rights to in power since 1986. So are these really countries that recall an incompetent MP? What is the recourse to the you want to emulate? Do you seriously want to emulate voter if an MP or a governing party departs from their Nigeria? Do you seriously want to emulate Zimbabwe? I social contract? What is the recourse, if the President for will not be surprised, they are your newly found friends. instance Mr Speaker, violates any law or Constitution, I think the other side of the aisle is lost in citing some of when he cannot be impeached? What exists is a very these countries.

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Honourable Kapinga has clearly stated that the system party as we can see Councillors from all four corners of of floor crossing in some of the countries is usedto the country…it seems like BDP is dying a slow death, systematically deal with the opposition. Sometimes Councillors are defecting across the country, so maybe there is a by-election and those who hold the power they are trying to lock them inside the party. You are to issue a writ of elections, they just sit and do not do debating brilliantly. anything. Mr Speaker, our view is that, floor crossing is common in the Commonwealth as Honourable Fidelis HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation Mr Speaker. Molao of 2011 had articulated well when debating this MR KEORAPETSE: No. Exactly what you are saying Motion and that mature democracies such as Australia, Honourable Member. Canada and the United Kingdom (UK) where Botswana has copied the system, practice this system. There is MR SPEAKER: Another elucidation called for. also an argument that there is absolutely no hindrance MR KEORAPETSE: No, denied. Exactly what I am on enjoyment of freedom of individual MPs and saying Honourable Member and the leprosy is so bad Councillors right or freedoms to associate. This is a that in the Central District… I wish to appeal to Members flawed argument Mr Speaker. It is flawed in this sense, of Parliament and Councillors in the ruling party that whilst nothing prohibits an MP or a Councillor from before this law is passed, make sure that you find a new joining a different political party, the loss of a seat is political home, where you will be free to express your a clear hurdle. It encumbers one to freely associate or opinions without the fear of being victimised. It is very dissociate to the extent that one will lose their position. clear Mr Speaker that this law is inspired by panic. It is It is effectively prohibited. This is even more serious a very undemocratic law. In fact, we can summarise it as for Botswana’s elections, whereby most candidates an anti-democracy law because for a ruling party which fund their campaigns from their pockets with very little has promised a comprehensive Constitutional review assistance from political parties. Very few politicians to be coming with a Bill like this one, it is a shame in would want a by-election to go and seek another the sense that right now Batswana should be consulted mandate because it is prohibitively exorbitant. widely and not rely on something that happened about It is clear Mr Speaker, that the ruling party has decided 22 years ago. The issues that Batswana are worried and it will pass this Bill, but a recent article after the Bill about are mainly economic issues; unemployment, was gazetted and I wish to quote the Botswana Gazette wealth and income inequalities, that the economy is in of Wednesday, 22nd July, 2020. If you permit me. the hands of foreigners and naturalised citizens. That there is corruption that is rampant in this country, the MR SPEAKER: Please do Honourable Member. agricultural sector has almost collapsed. These are the MR KEORAPETSE: The Gazette is quoting Mr Daniel things that Batswana are worried about and want to Kwelagobe and he is saying, “The BDP Government’s see Members of Parliament spending valuable time move is undemocratic and impedes the peoples` right on, not some piecemeal legislation of amending the to choose who they associate with.” That is exactly Constitution. what the ruling party is doing. This law is tantamount The Constitution Mr Speaker, is a sacred document as to a lockdown. The same way when the lockdown was Honourable Yandani Boko has said. We cannot amend announced, there was a mass exodus of the people who the Constitution without substantiating the decision were trapped at Dibete. That is exactly what the ruling with empirical evidence. We cannot rely on something party is trying to do Mr Speaker. that happened more than two decades ago. So, it is a bad law, it must be rejected. I implore Mr Speaker, that MR RAMOGAPI: Elucidation Mr Speaker. You are you actually allow a booth when a vote is done so that debating brilliantly Honourable… everyone is free to vote in secret. I thank you. MR SPEAKER: Honourable, you have to be called MR LESEDI (SEROWE SOUTH): Thank you Mr first… no, you are already standing up Honourable. Speaker, good afternoon. Let me also deliberate on the MR RAMOGAPI: I apologise Mr Speaker. I was saying Bill before us. In short, this country is in deep trouble; that you are debating brilliantly Honourable Member. according to what we hear from Honourable Ministers, Just a quick one Honourable, what you are basically this country is financially dry Mr Speaker. I am worried saying is that they are trying to lock people inside the that among a number of things which are still before

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us, are we still here trying to burden us more, will we they have expressed that they do not want. I think when manage? If people were to leave in large numbers that we bring Bills, we should look broadly at all issues that we see them doing, with this law in effect, how are we can affect the nation. Mr Speaker, we should not just going to manage to finance bye elections? How much single out one thing and focus on it and forget about will they require in total given the financial dry spell others. that we are in? I was saying maybe we could prioritise. The Minister recently came and informed us that by It is the same as someone who ran for elections and February, he is bringing Constitutional review for us to lost as most of them are beneficiaries where they lost. discuss. I believe that when he brings this Bill, unless Batswana are not happy about that also because you he can tell Batswana that he is not telling the truth when would have been given a chance to try your best and he says Constitutional review is coming in February, they did not choose you but someone else. Now when it if he says that, I will believe him. If it is coming in comes to Parliament, those who won are sidelined when February as he has confirmed Mr Speaker, I disagree it comes to electing Ministers but those who lost and with this Motion, I believe it should wait for the holistic came under specially elected ticket are elected Ministers. Constitutional review. Mr Speaker, if you have been Mr Speaker, that is more painful than you could ever voted to Council or Parliament as we are here, we are imagine. Mr Speaker, there are other urgent Motions representing the interests of Batswana who sent us here which could have come before this one. Among several from our constituencies, irrespective of which party things I have heard, there are no funds. In the absence you come from. Just a few steps back, in the debates, it of funds Mr Speaker, how are we going to implement sounded as if people were not happy that we move with this law? Right now there are several areas that we their seats. If people are not happy that we are crossing operate with that do not have Councillors. I am not sure with their seats, let us look at it in a broad spectrum and if COVID-19 is to blame or there are no funds because not look at it singularly. There are so many things which there is a great outcry of lack of funds. Although I did pains our voters more than this Bill. For example Mr not want this Bill to come at this moment since it is not Speaker, at Serowe, Botswana Patriotic Front (BPF) had urgent, I like it because it looks like it is going to save 11 Councillors and BDP had six. Batswana in Serowe us. were indicating that they want BPF at this moment. BDP with all its powers went and specially elected six HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… Councillors so that they can overpower BPF and brought their total to 12 while BPF was left with 11. MR LESEDI: Mr Speaker, the numbers are not trickling in but pouring in. DR GOBOTSWANG: Elucidation. Thank you Mr Speaker and thank you Honourable Member. Is it right HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… that when people have been rejected in Serowe, they HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. increase their Councillors and takeover Government from those who won and even went as further as MR LESEDI: No, let me proceed. I still have time I specially electing an Honourable Member? Is that not will yield swaar (brother in law). coup? Is the Government that is capable of a coup in MR SPEAKER: What is swaar in Parliament? Council trustworthy enough that the day it loses, will it not attempt a coup on the party that won? HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)…

MR LESEDI: Thank you Mr Speaker, thank you MR SPEAKER: We only have Honourable Members Honourable Gobotswang. It is true Honourable Member, here. they have taken over in Serowe. I would like to indicate that this has hurt people more than an Honourable MR LESEDI: I apologise Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, Member crossing the floor with the seat. Even when in although this Motion was not urgent, it has saved us. future I could support this Motion, at this moment I do HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… not support it looking at that it is similar to where after people vote for me like it happened at Serowe where MR LESEDI: We are scoring big. you could see that people desired to be led by BPF but right now as we speak, they are led by the BDP which HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)…

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MR LESEDI: I believe at this moment there are regrets MR SPEAKER: Bill. of why this Motion was rushed because it seems it is going to cause complications on the other side. Mr MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Bill. You are talking Speaker, I believe that… and supporting the upcoming Constitutional review, do you not think it is dangerous to have a provision where HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… Honourable Members are allowed to cross over from one party to another, when we are about to review the MR LESEDI: No, I am not saying this Bill was made Constitution? I am saying this because I once heard your for BPF. I am saying, it seems this Bill has saved us and fellow member that side Honourable Dr Gobotswang, I believe it will continue to serve us well Mr Speaker. he was actually referring to the leader of your party, Where we are now is an indication that Batswana your Patron, the former President Lieutenant General understand themselves because I believe we could not Khama saying, “they joined his party for benefits.” With have prioritised it from the beginning as I said earlier. Right now when you go to constituencies Mr Speaker, that as a background, do you think it will be safe for us you are going to realise that there are so many things to review the Constitution when there is a possibility which are still lagging behind. I believe that could have that some members can cross over to where they are been an indication that maybe this Bill is not as urgent benefiting, what do you think about that sir? as we think. We still have some things before us like MR LESEDI: Pardon me about the issue of benefiting reviewing the Electoral Act. So we should be rushing because I have nothing to do with it Honourable. for them instead of this Bill. We still have pending Additionally, I never covered it in my debate. All I sections in the Constitution which have to be reviewed, am saying is, I believe nothing is wrong with allowing we have to bring them before this House so that they can be approved. We had Sections 77, 78, 79 not long ago, Honourable Members to cross like they have been doing so we could be dealing with them right now but they are because that is what is sustaining you that side… lagging behind because of lack of funds Mr Speaker. MR REATILE: Point of elucidation. I believe your There are just so many things which we have to deal debate is excellent Honourable Lesedi. If we come up with before this Bill. with this law in Botswana, benefits or no benefits, people So Mr Speaker, I do not see the urgency to deal with are still going to continue with floor crossing from one this Bill. I believe it is rather more profitable to deal political party to another. We all know that this House with the issues that we already have instead of this Bill. made a law such that anyone who kills another should Mr Speaker, with all the reasons I listed, I believe we also be killed. Right now we do not know what to do should reconsider this Bill. If the Minister was here, I because people are killing others at an alarming rate. would ask him to withdraw it for now and bring it in February, together with what we are expecting to have That alone does not guarantee Botswana that people in the Constitution. Having said that Mr Speaker, I do are no longer going to continue with floor crossings at not support this Bill... councils and in Parliament, they are always going to be there. You mentioned that Government lack funds but we MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Point of clarification. are yet to have many by-elections in the 12th Parliament, Thank you swaar (bother in law) for the... not during the 13th Parliament. You can confirm that to the Honourable Member that, let us approve this law as MR SPEAKER: What is in-law in Parliament, per your wish, also remind him to get ready to campaign Honourable Member for Gaborone Central? again. Thank you. MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: I thought it was a MR LESEDI: It is indeed like that Honourable Reatile. word of endearment Nkamo’s father... It is just as I explained that, since we have been saying MR SPEAKER: Please use the right language to your that we lack funds, where are we going to source funds colleague. because we are surely going to have by-elections after approving this law. Like you were saying Honourable, MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Thank you even if we can make a law where we register victims of Honourable Lesedi. Looking at what you were saying, Gender-Based Violence (GBV) or do it in other ways, you support this law. You are only against the last part it is not going to stop them from abusing others. I mean of it... those who have...

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HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further elucidation. that she fraudulently obtained money from the bank and Yes, … did other things. So let us not argue about that because we have evidence in the papers and we will each bring MR SPEAKER: Sir Leader of the Opposition, you them tomorrow. We are not here to discuss those issues, deserve to be addressed as sir. Please have the floor so let us deal with this Bill. Honourable Motsamai, what Honourable Leader. did you call me? Do not try me because you will suffer!

MR SALESHANDO: Thank you. MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, MR SPEAKER: Yes sir. I liked what you said before concluding Honourable Member for Gaborone Central, that we are not here to MR SALESHANDO: Honourable Healy is repeating discuss those issues. I was about to say something but the issue of ‘eating’ time again, but we know that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition took the floor, Secretary General of Domkrag said these words during so I had to respect him and sat down. You also took the an interview, “it is our turn to eat,”. You all know that floor because you wanted to rebut, so I had to leave you. whenever we have cases of corruption, members of BDP I beg you Honourable Members, like I usually say, let are usually the culprits. We never had any commission of us talk to each other accordingly. I beg you Honourable corruption or a case where a member of opposition was Members, we are wearing suits because we are respected a culprit. In cases that are being discharged recently at members, you are representing different constituencies the courts of law, the name of the current President was and people out there are listening to what you are mentioned in them. Honourable Healy’s name is also saying. I do not want them to hear you exchanging such included in cases of corruption which were reported in kinds of words, I beg you and ask God to bring unity to the newspapers. So stop talking about issues of eating/ this House. Honourable Member for Gaborone South, benefitting because you are leading in the list of culprits sorry Gaborone…Sorry, sorry. Honourable Member for of corruption. Serowe South. MR LESEDI: Thank you Mr Speaker... MR LESEDI: You usually struggle with this MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Point of procedure. constituency Mr Speaker. Anyway, it is called Serowe Mr Speaker, is it procedural for the Leader of the South… Opposition to bring some unfounded allegations about myself. We were here last time when he told us stories HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. about his wife and we spared him. He is here again and wants to start some issues, so I want to know if it is MR LESEDI: I thought to highlight that if there is procedural so that we can do things the way he wants any political party that would have benefited from floor them to be done. crossing more than others is the BDP. You will recall that most of the Members who are Ministers are from LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (MR the opposition so it is not right for them to table this SALESHANDO): Further procedure. If you are Motion because they believe that they had their fill. denying it and saying it is an unfounded allegation, I can They should bear in mind that when they think they had bring National Petroleum Fund (NPF) documents where their fill, there will be spillage, while they are sure that the name Honourable Healy appears which were taken they have something, they will find that there is nothing to court, I am not talking about the usual newspapers. they have. MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! MR KEORAPETSE: On a point of elucidation Mr HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further procedure Mr Speaker. Honourable Member, are you aware that Speaker. throughout the debate, Honourable Members that side of the aisle failed to explain the recourse of the MR SPEAKER: Are you really going to give me a people in Serowe and other constituencies if a Member chance to make a ruling Honourable Members? of Parliament fails to do what they sent him to do in MR MANGWEGAPE-HEALY: Further procedure. Parliament, because they said they are doing this to It is not a problem because I will also bring some serve the interest of the people. What can the voters do documents which shows that Ms Saleshando has been before the next elections? If this motion really serves the suspended for nefarious activities; fraud and rumours interest of the people. What is people’s recourse if the

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President had promised people an electric vehicle but HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… does not deliver? If the party departs from its mandate which it was using to campaign during elections, what MR SPEAKER: Please go ahead Minister. recourse can people take against that party before the MR MTHIMKHULU: Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr upcoming elections? There is no recourse. So they Speaker, I heard Mathoothe threatening Honourable should not come here and claim that this Motion Healy. serves people’s interests because if it was, they could be bringing democracy which can allow people to take MR SPEAKER: Honourable Mathoothe. action against Members of Parliament and Councillors MR MTHIMKHULU: Honourable Mathoothe is who have derailed and rejected Motions such as increasing old age pension and internship allowances. threatening Honourable Healy. He says, if he wants to have a peaceful life, he should stop talking about Khama MR LESEDI: Thank you Honourable Member. Those in Parliament. That is a veiled threat to Honourable are the issues I strongly believe could have been a Healy. So this should not be allowed here in Parliament. priority before this one. That is why I indicate that there Here people have to debate freely without fear or favour. is absolutely no urgency on this Motion. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR MATHOOTHE: On a point of elucidation Mr Speaker. Thank you Mr Speaker. Honourable Lesedi, MR SPEAKER: Sorry, Honourable Minister, I did not you are debating this Motion well. You started well hear what you said. discussing the Bill, the problem is that, when you were MR MTHIMKHULU: He said, “if Honourable Healy discussing it, Honourable Healy then started talking about Khama and getting benefits. This shows that their wants to live a peaceful life he should stop talking about objective is not the Bill but to talk about Khama and Khama.” That is a veiled threat. It is a threat to Mr his benefits. So Honourable Healy, if you want to live Healy that if he continues to talk about Khama he will a peaceful life stop talking about Honourable Khama in not live a peaceful life. So people’s lives should not be Parliament. threatened in Parliament that, if they talk about some people they will not have a peaceful life. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Healy is not holding the floor. How can you address him? MR SPEAKER: You have made your point.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR MTHIMKHULU: Yes sir. So I request that he withdraw those words, there are wrong, there are a MR SPEAKER: In all fairness, Honourable Member danger to democracy. for Serowe South, your colleague in front of you had also asked for clarification or elucidation, do you yield? MR SPEAKER: You have made your point.

MR LESEDI: I yield. MR LESEDI: Thank you.

MR SPEAKER: Quickly Honourable Motsamai. MR SPEAKER: Also explain those words Honourable Member. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker.

MR SPEAKER: Procedure. When he says procedure, MR LESEDI: Mr Speaker… please resume your seat Honourable Member for HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is Mathoothe. Ghanzi South. Honourable Member for the constituency that has been boiling on my head, for Gaborone South. MR SPEAKER: Oh! It is Honourable Mathoothe. He Honourable Assistant Minister for Presidential Affairs, is not holding the floor. How can you… Governance and Public Administration. That is you I believe? HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)…

ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! In all fairness, according AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC to our procedures, Honourable Mathoothe is not holding ADMINISTRATION (MR MTHIMKHULU): Yes the floor. He only stood on an interjection. He is not the sir. Procedure. substantive holder of the floor. The substantive holder of

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the floor who can have all other bullets directed to him MR MOTSAMAI: Time is now moving too fast; I do is Honourable Member for Serowe South. That is what not know who is pressing it. the procedure is saying. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… MR LEUWE: Further procedure Mr Speaker. Thank you Mr Speaker, who I very much respect. I want to MR LESEDI: Thank you Mr Speaker. Let me indicate understand something. I do not believe that if Honourable that in all honesty I want to implore Honourable Healy Saleshando is holding the floor and I interject in in terms of the issues he raised to stop enjoying talking his debate saying words which are unacceptable in about Khama because… Parliament, a ruling would be made that I am not the one MR SPEAKER: I have made a ruling on that issue holding the floor. Please rule on that one Honourable Honourable Member. I have ruled on that issue. Please Speaker. migrate to a new point.

MR SPEAKER: No, if you say unacceptable words… MR LESEDI: Thank you Mr Speaker. Through my MR LEUWE: Pardon? debate I do not concur with this Motion.

MR SPEAKER: Please sit down, you have made your MR SPEAKER: Your time is up! point Honourable Leuwe. DR TSHABANG (NKANGE): Thank you Mr Speaker. MR LEUWE: My point is Honourable Mthimkhulu I am also thankful for the opportunity to comment on indicated that the words spoken by Honourable the amendment Bill. Mr Speaker, let me start by saying the spirit behind the tabling of this Bill is bad. … Mathoothe is a threat to Honourable Healy. We believe he is not supposed to say threats in this House. So we (Laughter!)… see you leaving him and saying Honourable Lesedi HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… should continue. Thank you Honourable. MR SPEAKER: Speak clearly Honourable Member. MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! No Honourable Members, until and unless we want to abuse words, I DR TSHABANG: The sprit behind this Bill, is bad Mr am a good listener, I heard the words spoken about the Speaker. former President, there is no threat. There is no threat, not even a minute of it. Instead it might be abuse of HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… words. Once more Honourable Members, I want to DR TSHABANG: There is bosawananyana … implore you to stop talking about other people. I will be (Laughter!)… In English we say it is in bad faith. very rigid and strict to apply Standing Order 57.1 if you It came at the wrong time; the reasons are not address each other in such a manner and you will say I convincing. If it had no bad intentions, we could am not a good person. I do not want to be that ruthless. have started a comprehensive Constitutional review Please, let us address each other properly. Honourable which our colleagues from across the aisle promised Member, your time is almost taken, so make use of it. the nation. Right now they are postponing the holistic MR LESEDI: Mr Speaker, thank you. In fact, in the Constitutional review and bringing bits and pieces and short remaining time, Honourable Motsamai asked for you may wonder what their problem is. It is the same elucidation, let me yield for him so that he state his point as promising someone that you will plough 10 hectares and then I conclude. for them, then after that you say no, I will plough one hectare. This is the state of disappointment about the MR MOTSAMAI: Mr Speaker, my point of elucidation issue of the Constitutional Review. We expected a lot is, Honourable Member as you were debating this of things from the holistic Constitutional Review, not Motion, you raised a point that this Bill is brought these bits and pieces. We just thought that the whole of urgently and you believe there are issues which could Section 77 will come here and be amended, then issues have been a priority. Let me sit down so that you of the districts and Tribal Territories Act can also come conclude and not… here and be amended Mr Speaker. That is what we were HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… waiting for, but now we have a Floor-crossing Bill.

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This issue of floor-crossing at the moment does not have a say when someone is defecting, or whatever they favour Domkrag (Botswana Democratic Party). The do. We have a lot of examples of people who defected in flow of traffic is from Domkrag to the Opposition. They the past years. People elected them from a different party, want to use their majority to stop people from crossing. those people defected because they were concerned At the time they were taking members from us every day about the procedures of the parties they were affiliated by bribing them, it was good, and they took members as to. The people then saw that this person is honest, and much as they liked. The times have now changed and they re-elected him or her. For example; Honourable people are now associating with the Opposition. They Mmolotsi is here and he was voted by a third different see better results in the Opposition. This issue that we party, they never said no, you did not consult us. They are talking about of floor-crossing, is an attempt to give said, you are honest, we can relate with you. At first he their President more powers again in their party. They crossed from Domkrag to the Opposition. Mr Speaker, have said that they want the parties to be organised. there is nothing like a Member of Parliament has That is what they want; to stabilise the party. It is not about the people. Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) betrayed the voters a lot. Most of the times Members of has for the past 55 years not considered people in the Parliament are always in touch with their voters, anyway Bill, right now they are thinking about people, what is I am talking about those that I know. They listen to what wrong? There are problems in the party. their voters are saying all the time. If the party they are affiliated to is no longer running things properly, they Mr Speaker, when we go for elections, it is clear that will tell us and even threaten to vote us out in the next someone who campaigns in a constituency is a Member elections. Why can we not give them that opportunity of Parliament (MP) candidate, he or she is associated to like we want to do with floor-crossing? Right now why a party. The principal fact is that, that person is a MP, can we not give them the opportunity to have a say of that is why when someone passes away, we do not say voting out a Member of Parliament or Councilor, this is since Shashe West was won by Domkrag, now it has selective? Like I have said Mr Speaker, people defect to replace that candidate of the party. We go for the from the parties because they do not agree with corrupt elections again… practices. Where you will find that you are not allowed HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)... to express your opinion and you are expected to agree with what the party caucus believes in, whereas you DR TSHABANG: I do not wish to pass away conscience does not agree. You will die of political Honourable Member, I am giving an example. It is called a bye-election because a MP’s seat has become internal bleeding. You will be killed by someone who vacant. We do not say Nkange was won by Umbrella for wants to control everything in the party. They will keep Democratic Change (UDC). When there is a vacancy, on putting words into your mouth, and you are expected it does not mean that UDC should bring their candidate to keep on agreeing and saying I vote yes, if they told you because their position is vacant. We go back to the to say yes. People should be allowed to have freedom of people. The party does not die, and it does not resign. expression in their parties. This Bill is going to temper Why is it that right now you are saying you want to with dynamism of politicians. A politician is hindered hear what the people are saying? Right now if I am not from saying what they should say in Parliament without performing as a Member of Parliament, why can you going against the party. This is what this Bill wants, and not ask what the people are saying about their Member it is not beneficial to the voters, but to the party bosses. of Parliament who does not perform, who is corrupt, or Like now you are saying it is for better organisation, for always says hey! we are here to eat and so on? better control of the party… HONOURABLE MEMBER: The watch says this. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. DR TSHABANG: The watch says this. DR TSHABANG: May I kindly start with Honourable HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… Dr Gobotswang first…

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. MR SPEAKER: You stand on elucidation? I thought I heard a different voice. DR TSHABANG: Mr Speaker, we know that the party has a contribution in bringing candidates. We cannot run DR GOBOTSWANG: No, elucidation. I have long away from that. We know that people are supposed to been in a queue for elucidation.

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MR SPEAKER: Hey Honourable Members! DR TSHABANG: We are saying this Bill wants to oppress politicians and have them die on the inside. HONOURABLE MEMBER: They are behaving like they are at a Kgotla. Mr Speaker, it has been said the nation was consulted 22 years ago. We are asking whether the President does MR SPEAKER: You have just created your own not think it is prudent to go back to the nation and hear procedure. what they have to say through a referendum or any other DR GOBOTSWANG: Elucidation. Thank you Mr method that he can choose. We were told that it is not Speaker. I was saying that I do not know why it seems mandatory for that to be done. This reminded me of the like men that side of the aisle have fainted, and I think words which were once uttered by a certain gentleman they also know deep down in their hearts what is going some time ago, I cannot mention his name. He said, to happen. If this Bill is approved … “this country is not your sister, where you are consulted when she gets married.” Do you remember those words, MR SPEAKER: Who are you provoking by saying Honourable Members? they have fainted? If you hear the leadership saying ‘on this matter there HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… is no need for consultation,’ they are basically saying ‘this country is not your sister whom when she is getting DR GOBOTSWANG: No, those ones at the other side married, you are duly informed.’ That is the spirit of of the aisle. When we finish with this Bill, there will dictatorship. be a Cabinet reshuffle, then after the Cabinet reshuffle, I sympathise with Honourable Letsholo, Honourable MR KEORAPETSE: A quick question, just a minute Leuwe and Honourable Lelatisitswe who once said the quickly. creative industry was grown by Khama. I do not know DR TSHABANG: Do not take long Honourable where these poor people will go because the day that Member, my time is ticking. happens, it is going to be a problem. MR SPEAKER: There is nothing like that Honourable DR TSHABANG: Honourable Member… Member for Selebi Phikwe West, just do it properly. MR SPEAKER: You keep on calling out Honourable MR KEORAPETSE: On a point of clarification. Members of Parliament. Honourable Member, I just wanted you to clarify, MR REATILE: Clarification. Thank you Mr Speaker. especially when it comes to the issue that a consultation It seems like he wants your position of Speaker. was done. In your understanding of consultation, since you are one of the Members of Parliament who is highly MR SPEAKER: I can see him. learned, you have about four degrees; three for Science MR REATILE: Honourable Member, you are right and one for business do you believe it is enough… on track when you say you are hindered from saying HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… what Batswana want you to say. Do you mean like when the Honourable Members said they had a caucus MR KEORAPETSE: Yes, he has a Doctor of where they agreed that Honourable Saleshando should Philosophy (PhD) in Chemistry, Masters in Chemistry, a be chased from Parliament, and I refused to vote against Science Degree and Masters of Business Administration Honourable Dumelang where they also caucused about (MBA). Therefore, Honourable Member, what is your the Speakership? Is that what you mean? take regarding consultation which was done 22 years DR TSHABANG: You know very well Honourable ago? Member because after you voted against them, you received a suspension letter. One just has to die of DR TSHABANG: Actually, a consultation which was internal bleeding... done 22 years ago, besides being learned or anything, even when a layman hears that consultation was done MR SPEAKER: Please discuss the matter on the table, 22 years ago, he is going to be shocked. Even the nation stop talking Greek, and address the matter that is on the is saying 22 years is a long time ago, there should be a table. fresh consultation. The demographics have changed; the

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population and people have changed; the way people no. From there he would appoint the Cabinet from the view politics has also changed. We now have Facebook, Members of Parliament, and then he is the one who WhatsApp and many other platforms that inform people would be in charge, despite the fact that he was not nowadays. We cannot rely on what happened 22 years elected directly. This is what the BDP is fearing… back. On that point, what even bothers me the most is when they say it is not necessary for us to go and consult HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… people because we consulted them 22 years ago, and the DR TSHABANG: What do you mean I should finish; I Bill does not oblige us to do so. am still debating. (U no dwa ndi pedza ini ndi tjiyapo?)

Mr Speaker, this Bill has been brought in bad faith, HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… because the ruling party is using it solve their problems, it is not addressing the wishes of Batswana. Like DR TSHABANG: No, I am still debating, what are you someone was saying, the main issue is that, they are afraid of? (No, ndi tjiyapo, u no tshosiwa neni?) When after the Botswana Patriotic front (BPF), and the BPF I start talking about direct election of the President you are afraid of speaking out. It is the one that is taking start panicking, what do you mean I should finish? No, I members of the BDP (Domkrag). Every morning when am still on the floor. I am not going anywhere. they wake up and they hold a meeting, they take. MR SPEAKER: Who are you arguing with? Who is HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… this Bill making you argue with who?

DR TSHABANG: No, even we in Shashe West are DR TSHABANG: No, this one is panicking. going to taking some very soon. I mean this issue is HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… just addressing concerns of the ruling party, which is in trouble. This Bill entrenches what is called tyranny of DR TSHABANG: I am not done yet Mr Speaker; I bosses; leaders who abuse people in parties and politics am still debating (A kuna cha pela, ndi tjiyapo ko ga). because they have realised that for them to keep people, When we talk about direct election of the President, they have to come up with this Bill. They have noticed some people start shivering. That is why most of the that, even if a Member of Parliament does not support time when we say the President should not do this they it, they have no place where to go, like Honourable Dr say ‘leave President Masisi alone.’ That is what we are Gobotswang was saying that, when we leave here, there saying Mr Speaker, that there are laws that should be is going to be a Cabinet Reshuffle and the unhappy ones changed… would be doomed. They are just going to sit on hot coal until they burn. HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)…

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… DR TSHABANG: Boko cannot be chased away DR TSHABANG: It is very clear, it was said we are by anyone; he is the President of the Umbrella for coming up with this Bill so that we would be able to Democratic Change (UDC). You are just involving control our parties properly, and put our things in order. yourselves in issues that do not affect you. The BDP knows how to mess up the country when they are A party is not led through tyranny; it is led through facing challenges. They bring some laws to favour organisational thinking. You cannot just say, “No, I feel themselves… there are some members who want to defect from the party.” This being done by a President who is not even HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… affected by direct election. Therefore, he wants to talk about this thing! DR TSHABANG: Bad laws. Thank you Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, if there was any Bill to be changed, it should MR SPEAKER: Your time is up. Thank you very much. be one where there is direct election of the President; he Honourable Ministers; the front bench, amongst you, is should be elected directly by the people. There should there anyone who has been mandated by Honourable be a third box. The people should elect a President they Morwaeng to hold fort for him? want, not saying when a party has 20 or 29 Members of Parliament, it automatically assumes the Government, HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)…

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MR SPEAKER: Oh yes, if nobody stands, Honourable Most importantly Mr Speaker, a clear distinction must Assistant Minister Mthimkhulu, I shall call you upon be drawn between defection and floor crossing. You will to respond to the debate. The floor continues to remain note that earlier on today, Honourable Pono Pearson open. Moatlhodi, the Acting Deputy Speaker, alluded to the fact that some members crossed from the Botswana …Silence… Democratic Party (BDP) to the BNF, and he pointed HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… himself as one of the examples. He also spoke about Honourable Minister for Presidential Affairs who he MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member for Gaborone claimed crossed from the opposition to the BDP, but that South, on your portfolio as Assistant Minister was not floor crossing, it was defection. Floor crossing responsible for Presidential Affairs, Governance and is when an elected representative who was elected under Public Administration, the Minister who presented this a banner of a political party, chooses to cross the floors Bill. Honourable Minister, please respond to the debate. in Parliament. That is a totally different issue at all.

ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL When a politician Mr Speaker, who is not holding any AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC elected public office decides to join another party, that ADMINISTRATION (MR MTHIMKHULU): is referred as defection and not floor crossing. When Thank you Mr Speaker. As I conclude my response to Honourable Members’ debates… an elected representative decides to join another party under which they were not elected, that is undesirable HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… floor crossing. That is what we want to stop now. It has the effect of denting public confidence on a democratic MR SPEAKER: May we have order please Honourable process. It can fuel voter apathy. Members.

MR MTHIMKHULU: …the debates on this Bill… Mr Speaker, questions have been asked as to why now? The answer is simple; doing the right thing cannot MR SPEAKER: His Honour the Vice President, wait. and should not be delayed any longer. The current Honourable Members who are standing there, the Parliament needs to be bold and decide upon this noise that you are making there does not suit you at all. long overdue matter once and for all. You can see that Honourable Minister, please hold the floor. when the Members of the Opposition have made their MR MTHIMKHULU: As I conclude my response contribution to this debate, when it came towards the to Honourable Members’ debates on this Bill, I must end, they stood up and all left. They are not taking their reiterate that this proposed amendment is about voters and this debate seriously. protecting the public vote and the will of the people. Our past politicians, including; Lieutenant General HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order Mr Sir Seretse Khama Ian Khama, Dr Margaret Nasha Speaker. and many other opposition politicians, including Dr Koma of the Botswana National Front (BNF), may MR SPEAKER: Point of order. Please resume your seat his soul rest in peace, have all previously expressed Honourable Minister and switch off your microphone the need to guard against the interest of the public. As (mic) please. I heard the voice, Honourable Mmolotsi. a result, Mr Speaker, I wish to express disappointment MR MMOLOTSI: Point of order. Thank you very Mr at the fact that the current opposition have deliberately attempted to mislead the nation. Most of them spent a Speaker. I think the Honourable Assistant Minister is considerable amount of time speaking about Specially out of order because he has just said that all Members Elected Members of Parliament (MPs), something that of Opposition decided to walk out and that is a sign that is totally irrelevant to the current subject matter. It is they do not take electorates seriously. We are here Mr well-known that Specially Elected MPs are provided Speaker, how can he say we all went out when we are for under a different section within the Constitution, and here? He is out of order and therefore he must retract any attempt to sneak issues of the appointment into the that one. current debate is unnecessary. The public is warned to disregard this attempt to sway attention from the core MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, correct that matter that is on the table. statement Honourable Member.

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MR MTHIMKHULU: Thank you Mr Speaker. I all walked out. It is well known in this Parliament, it apologise to Wynter Mmolotsi of the Alliance for is procedural that, Honourable Members can excuse Progressives (AP), who is a lone member of this themselves and go to the rest rooms during the debate, Parliament from that party. You can see that most if the Member on the floor is the one whom they know members of the Umbrella for Democratic Change that, even if they miss their presentation, they do not (UDC), chose to walk out because they do not respect miss anything. this Parliament and debate. They do not respect this process, this Motion of amending the Constitution which HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… touches upon their offices as Members of Parliament. MR SALESHANDO: …you can go to the restrooms HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of order Mr and come back to Parliament. It happens all the time. Speaker. I observe whether when a certain Member makes a presentation, I will miss anything by going to the MR MTHIMKHULU: Mr Speaker… restrooms. If I believe that I will not miss anything, I rush to go outside like I just did and I come back, others MR SPEAKER: Point of order. Please resume your are also coming. That is the practice that is done by seat Honourable Minister. everybody.

LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (MR MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! I think I have to make SALESHANDO): Point of order. Mr Speaker, there a ruling on this matter. Honourable Members, no, in all has been no walkout by the UDC over this issue. We fairness, there has never been any walkout. Earlier on, debated it fully. If anything, this shows that we are about three or four Honourable Members walked out, serious because we debated 20 minutes, while they it seemed inappropriate for the four of them to leave at rushed through it debating for 10 minutes. Can we the same time but they did that humbly and you could use that against them and say that they are not serious? see that they were rushing to the restrooms. That is how We debated, we will be voting. We are not boycotting we say it in the northern side. They went to restrooms anything in this Bill. We will also be voting on this Bill. and we cannot say that there has been any walkout. Thank you. Walkout means to boycott. So please, I plead with the Honourable Minister, let us quit this matter and migrate MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, I think he has to a new point. Develop a new point. cleaned the slate. MR MTHIMKHULU: Thank you Mr Speaker., before MR MTHIMKHULU: That is my position Mr I conclude Mr Speaker, the floor crossing Bill is going Speaker, when the debates came to an end, most of them to be beneficial to Batswana and all political parties. It left Parliament. They are not here in Parliament but they is going to be beneficial to Umbrella for Democratic have been here deliberating on this issue and when it Change as opposed to Botswana Democratic Party came towards the conclusion, they chose to walk out (Domkrag). UDC is made up of three parties which because they have realised that this Bill is going to move are not united and they are likely to split. Their to the next stage. They thought by walking out, they will President is not in Parliament and it seems like he is collapse the quorum of this Parliament but they failed being undermined. So after we pass this Bill or when dismally in that attempt. This should be pointed to the it becomes a law, that on its own will unite UDC again, viewers out there, so that it is clear to what they are they will not have instances whereby people who are attempting to do. here in Parliament look down upon their President just because he is not here and they are eying his position. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further point of order Mr Speaker. MR MMOLOTSI: Procedure. Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I am trying to find out if it acceptable for MR MTHIMKHULU: May I come now to my someone who holds a ministerial position to be petty conclusion… like this, to an extent of making this Bill which is MR SALESHANDO: Point of order. Mr Speaker, I being discussed seem irrelevant and useless? He is now plead that he should rule out of order because we did watering down their Bill and it appears insignificant. not walk out, we did not try to collapse the quorum. If Is it acceptable to undermine this Parliament like our intentions were to collapse quorum, we could have Honourable Mthimkhulu is doing?

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MR MTHIMKHULU: Thank you Mr Speaker. I was HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)… concluding. They are saying that Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) presented this Bill because of fear that the MR MTHIMKHULU: I want that when we leave party is collapsing, its members are defecting and they here… are trying to stop people from leaving. I am trying to MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, do not go there. clarify that this law does not work for BDP only. It is I have ruled against it. Confine yourself to the paper. trying to protect the voters out there and we respect the will of the voters. We do not want any attempt to MR MTHIMKHULU: Alright, let me proceed. It is whittle it down so that voters can be treated as voting just that there were words that were used that side which fodder, where after voting they are forgotten. I also were piercing but you did not rebuke. mentioned in passing that this law is going to protect MR SPEAKER: I have done that and asked you to the Umbrella for Democratic Change (UDC). I was confine yourself to the paper. with Honourable Motsamai recently and said to him, Honourable Motsamai, do you recall when I told you HONOURABLE MEMBER: And that they wrote for that your President needs this law to continue as party you. President although he is not in Parliament and he must see you voting, supporting it. MR MTHIMKHULU: And the words uttered by the Speaker that they write for me, when I am a trained HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker. lawyer who knows how to write and speak. That is wrong especially coming from you as the Speaker. I MR SPEAKER: Procedure and please Honourable was clarifying what was said by the Opposition that side Minister, confine yourself to the Bill on the table. saying this law was made by BDP… LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (MR MR SPEAKER: As a Speaker, I also have people who SALESHANDO): Procedure. Mr Speaker, when it is write for me. said that the Minister should respond, it means he should focus on issues which were raised during the debate. MR MTHIMKHULU: No, let me finish Mr Speaker. The issue that he is raising now that this law is meant to I wanted to clear what the Opposition said that this protect Mr Boko, no one has ever stood from their side law was made for the BDP because they are afraid to and said, we have noted that Mr Boko is in trouble and lose members. Batswana are aware that this law was we have brought this law in his favour. There is no one not made for the BDP. This law was made for voters on the side of UDC who has ever said we have problems out there and it is going to work in favour of the and we need protection through this law. Now what is UDC, the very ones who are crying that it was made he responding to? Please guide him, maybe it is the first for BDP. I wanted to clarify that so that it becomes time that he is responding and I understand but, it does public knowledge that Boko who is undermined in this not mean that he should come with petty talk he heard Parliament by Honourable Members… on the streets the whole week like Honourable Mmolotsi MR SPEAKER: You have made your point Honourable said and let it be recorded in the Parliament Hansard. Minister, please confine yourself to the paper.

MR SPEAKER: I could not agree more with the MR MTHIMKHULU: Let me finish Mr Speaker. Honourable Leader of the Opposition (LOO), but I cannot use phrases such as petty talk since I am the MR SPEAKER: Please! Speaker. I will plead with your good self, in this country, MR MTHIMKHULU: Now in conclusion Mr Speaker, within this civil service, we have very competent and the nation must be rest assured that the Constitutional able civil servants, who write for us on how we should amendment is well on the way. The process will be respond. Definitely, your office, being the highest office lengthy and all necessary steps will be followed to the on the land, they have written for you undoubtedly. latter. In the meantime, you ought to see off this very Please confine yourself to the writing on the blue paper. important Bill. I now move… Please Honourable Minister. HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR MR MTHIMKHULU: Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr TSOGWANE): Elucidation. You have just clarified Speaker, I was responding to what was said… that this law was not made for any party. You must also

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point out like I emphasised earlier that, it answers the HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… complaints of Batswana who said people are crossing with their seats after they vote for them and now they HONOURABLE MEMBER: You are at committee are disappointed. They go to elections dragging their stage sir. feet and numbers keep going down. That is something …Silence… that you need to emphasise so that Batswana should know that this law is an answer to their cries. When HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… we are here as politicians, we do not convey their feelings, we represent ours that we are abused because MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, we are deterred from floor crossing. Now that is not I am reading and I take pride in having a statement what the law is saying, it says let us answer the outcry written to me by my able Clerk …(Laughter!)… the of Batswana because they are concerned, they are not question is that the Constitution Bill… happy that they vote someone today and tomorrow they HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… leave with their seat. Thank you. MR TSOGWANE: Procedure. When for third reading? MR MTHIMKHULU: Thank you Mr Speaker. I like that Leader of the House has clarified it clearly because MR SPEAKER: No, I have to read twice. it seemed like I was prevented from clarifying that this law was not made for BDP. It was made for all Question put and agreed to. parties; Botswana Congress Party (BCP), Umbrella for Democratic Change (UDC), Botswana People’s Party Committee-Later Date. (BPP) and all Opposition parties. It was also meant to BILL protect their President, President of UDC, though they are saying it is ours… LOCAL GOVERNMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2020 (NO. 24 OF MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, I have requested 2020) you to stop picking on that issue. Second Reading MR MTHIMKHULU: Alright. I now conclude by saying, the constitutional amendment will come as it ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL was promised to Batswana, it is on the way. Now, like GOVERNMENT AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT the speakers have said, the necessary step is to stop floor (MR AUTLWETSE): Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr crossing so that when we debate the most important Speaker, I beg to move that the Local Government issue of review of the Constitution, which is going to (Amendment) Bill,2020 (No. 24 of 2020) be read a be a great shaking like His Excellency the President second time. said last time, it is going to shake the foundations of the Constitution of Botswana, so that people do not come Mr Speaker, as we have debated the Constitution of here to be enticed like Honourable Healy said. They Botswana and agreed that... are going to look at this law intently, so that when they HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions!)… change the Constitution they will be honest. With those words Mr Speaker, I now move accordingly. I thank you MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Pardon me Honourable Mr Speaker. Minister. Please resume your seat.

MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, Honourable Members, the Minister is debating a serious let me make it a public secret that what I am reading has issue and we expect the dead silence. Please Honourable been written to me by very able and committed Clerk. Minister go ahead. So as Ministers, we have people who write for us… MR AUTLWETSE: Thank you Mr Speaker. I have HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… just mentioned that since this House has just approved MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, please note the amendment Bill of the Constitution of Botswana, that the Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2020 (No. 14 it is important to review some clause from the Local of 2020) has two Clauses and no amendments have been Government Act since they were introduced by this noticed. Parliament. We are doing this to ensure that there is no

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clash between these two laws where people would say of assuming that everyone is supporting that idea. Let the Act is contra vires the Constitution of the Republic us allow voters to decide through ballots. It is straight of Botswana. I believe it is not necessary to go into forward. It is the same for independent candidates who details in explaining reasons why we came up with this say, “I so and so is asking for your votes and I will do Motion because we talked about them when we were this and that for you,” while political parties are there. discussing the Constitution. That is still our issue and A situation where voters decide to vote for independent it is in two ways, if it happens under any circumstance candidates since they are not interested in political that a member who is at council decides to leave a party parties. They also do that because they know and believe which brought them to council. I would like to quote they have all the qualities they need from a leader. General Khama’s words. I am grateful that Honourable Some of them leave their parties because they believe Mthimkhulu has already talked about what he and other that candidate is a potential leader. We are saying, since politicians said. I am willing to quote him for the benefit they won as an independent candidate and were elected of those who did not hear Mr Speaker. by people who queued in a sunny day, we should not restrict them from joining a political party if they decide HONOURABLE MEMBER: Are you referring to to do so along the way. I am saying this because during Khama? elections, voters decided to support them not political MR AUTLWETSE: Honourable, even though our parties. So we are saying, if they decide to join political political parties differ, I do not like dismissing what a parties which Batswana did not support at that time, member of another party said as long as it is sensible, they have to discuss this issue with voters so that ballot more especially that he was talking about politics of paper can decide whether they are moving on with them Botswana, not of other countries. Some Honourable or partying ways. members who are very observant also talked about This issue is straight forward Mr Speaker, it does not politics of Botswana. General Khama said those words require us to argue about it. I am grateful that this House on Friday 14th of August in 1998 that, “recently when amended the Constitution, so the Local Government I stood for elections, the linkage to the candidates and Act must also flow with the Constitution. This is the day the people was done through machinery organisation and the opportunity, we will not have another one. The organising the campaign. I could not have done this fathers of politics have already given us direction. on my own. There were things like the use of party Mr Speaker, this law has two clauses, Clause 1 talks equipment addressing political meetings. When you arrive at the meeting place, people greet you with party about the title of the Bill. Clause 2 amends Section 17(1) slogans, I do not have a slogan of my own. The people of the Local Government Act by inserting immediately in the meeting were wearing party attire, that is uniform after paragraph (h) the following new paragraph which and I could not have done this thing alone.” says, “in the case of an elected member, if he or she was elected to the Council as a candidate for a political party, HONOURABLE MEMBER: What is the source of the member resigns from the political party or if he or your quotation? she was elected as a candidate who is not a member of MR AUTLWETSE: I explained that I am quoting from a political party, the member becomes a member of the Hansard which was recorded on Friday 14th August political party.” 1998. This is true sir. Honourable Mthimkhulu also quoted what was said by some politicians of Botswana. Mr Speaker, this concludes my presentation. I now move that the Local Government (Amendment) Bill, Let me explain that, what he is saying is that, a politician 2020 (No. 24 of 2020) be read a second time. I thank is linked to a political party which they are representing you Mr Speaker and I move accordingly. at that time and the leader of that particular party will then sign nomination form for them, to show that this MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, is their candidate. They also bring supporters from that the question is that Local Government (Amendment) party not from another party, to show that this indeed Bill, 2020 (No. 24 of 2020) be read a second time. is their candidate. That is why members on this side Question put and agreed to. believe it is important to discuss this issue with voters when these two people part ways Mr Speaker, instead MR REATILE: Procedure Mr Speaker.

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MR SPEAKER: I am too fast to conclude. Order! MR MATHOOTHE: Indeed, my colleague. I was Order! saying the Bill presented before us, which according to our colleagues across the aisle is meant to protect the HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Murmurs)... voters.

MR SPEAKER: No, I know procedure you are the MR SPEAKER: It protects. ones disturbing me. MR MATHOOTHE: It protects the voters. However, HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)... if we now talk about the Council members who are MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Member for nominated by the Minister, when they appoint them, they Shashe West, you are my student who is supposed to never consult the voters. Take an example of Serowe Administration Authority. During nominations of protect me here. Order! Honourable Members, the Specially Elected Members of Council at Serule which question is that the Local Government (Amendment) falls under Tonota, when they nominated at Serule, the Bill, 2020 (No. 24 of 2020) be read a second time. The Council member was nominated to Serowe Council to matter is open for debate. increase the numbers so that they can be the majority MR MATHOOTHE (SEROWE NORTH): Thank to kill people’s opinions. Two Council members at you Mr Speaker. Let me comment on the Motion Mogome-Mokgware who fall under Serowe-Palapye presented before us. Although I understand that we Sub-Council were nominated to Serowe. benefitted from the Bill which has just been presented When people of Mogome-Mokgware ask how they are before us, we should not ignore what is right. Although going to work with those Council members since they we benefit as Council members are joining our party is access services at Palapye and how they are going to large numbers we should be fair. I disagree with this Bill represent them if they are at Serowe? You can clearly the reason being that, I believe there should be freedom, see that they were nominated because the largest we should have a choice, Council members should number of Council members who voted at Serowe were choose to join any party they want if they want to leave. from the opposition. So Council members from these If the voters are not happy, they should know that they Sub-Council were nominated there to destroy what the will correct that in the upcoming elections. If they are people chose. happy, they can go with the candidate to wherever he is So, you can see that people’s interests were not served at going and vote for him. all but here we are now being told that the objective of I want to say this because the Ministers who have been the Bill is to protect the interests of the people. You can given the responsibility to nominate Specially Elected see that these are two contradicting issues. Council Members, do not even consider voters when MR RAMOGAPI: Elucidation. You are debating well they do nominations but here we are debating a Motion Honourable Member. Am I hearing you clearly, are you which claims to be serving the voters interests. If you saying the Government of Botswana Democratic Party take an area like… is so cruel as to nominate Council members of Mogome- Mokgware to Serowe whereas people of Mogome- MR LESEDI: Elucidation. Thank you Mr Speaker. Mokgware access services from my constituency of Thank you Honourable Member. Let me perhaps indicate Palapye. Thank you Honourable Member. that, you are debating well although I believe that from the language that we were taught by our parents, the MR KEORAPETSE: Procedure. Thank you Mr statement you used of moretwa wa mmamphula ke ntse Speaker. I can see the watch indicating that the debate should have been used in a different way that, although is 10 minutes but we are debating a Bill. Anyway maybe we have benefitted from the Bill even if we do not it was agreed at the Business Advisory Committee and we were not informed about the decision. All we know support it, we must however be grateful that, Council is that a Bill is debated for 20 minutes. members are joining us in large numbers. Mr Speaker, I simply wanted to help my colleague because that word MR SPEAKER: You have made your point. Thank might not be clearly comprehended as he intended. you very much. Honourable Kablay, I am calling you Thank you. Honourable Member because I know that you are a

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member of the Business Advisory Committee. Can is that, as the Speakership, I must apologise on behalf you kindly assist me to confirm if it is true that the ten of the Speakership because this is an issue that ought to minutes was agreed at the Business Advisory Committee have been announced before we resumed proceedings, this morning? because obviously we started before the general assembly, so the matter is buried. Honourable Member MR KABLAY: Thank you Mr Speaker. Honourable, for Serowe North! we agreed on the ten minutes so I do not know why the Leader of the Opposition (LOO) or the Opposition MR MATHOOTHE: That is how it is Honourable Whip did not inform them about the ten minutes. Ramogapi, the Councilors who were nominated at Mogome/Mokgware, come from one village, MR SPEAKER: Thank you very much my leader. Honourable Member for Serowe South. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification.

MR REATILE: Procedure Mr Speaker. According to MR MATHOOTHE: Mogome/Mokgware is under my limited knowledge, decisions taken at the Business Palapye Sub-Council… Advisory Committee Mr Speaker end up being discussed with us at the General Assembly, which is the procedure HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. of this House. Mr Speaker I am not aware of this new MR SPEAKER: Clarification sought. It is your… procedure that we agreed at the General Assembly and (Inaudible)…Honourable Mathoothe. I do not know why LOO did not inform you. This is business, so what is the procedure Mr Speaker? MR MATHOOTHE: Denied.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further procedure. HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Laughter!)…

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure MR MATHOOTHE: …then they were taken to Serowe, and that is how it is. The Constituents were LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): promised that they will cooperate with their candidate so Procedure. Honourable Members, let us respect people that they can get their services at Palapye. That is what whom we have assigned to represent us. You have I am saying that, there are instances where the wishes of sent people to the Business Committee, and they are people are protected, and in some instances they are not representing parties. Leader of the Opposition (LOO) protected. That is because at that time someone wants to whom we believe is leading all opposition parties choose the way they want to do things. My belief is that irrespective of whether one is a member of Umbrella for this Bill has only been brought here because there is a Democratic Change (UDC) or not. So we agreed that we problem. When I listened to the Honourable Members will inform you at the General Assembly tomorrow, but debates, they said they want stability in the party, so we had a gentlemen’s agreement that he will inform his if Domkrag (Botswana Democratic Party) cannot be fellow colleagues and we will inform our colleagues to stable and they are not united, do they now have to say save time about the 10 minutes. It is up to you, if you do they want to bring a law that will bring stability in their not agree with your leader when you have asked him to party? Can we just do that, where a law is implemented be your representative, it is up to you but he promised, because we are not united this side, and we want to have and Honourable Kablay and I agreed that we will inform total control in the party? our colleagues. Although we are going to inform them at the General Assembly, let us start today. We have HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of correction. agreed. MR MATHOOTHE: When I look at this issue that has HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further procedure. been put before us…

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of correction.

MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! No Honourable MR MATHOOTHE: Denied…I would like to know Members, we will waste time unnecessarily. The right whether lack of unity among members of a party is a words are those spoken by Honourable Member, Leader good reason to make a law and saying it is a big issue of this House and what I should say very unreservedly that Batswana are concerned about? It is an issue that

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was not supposed to come before us. As we are speaking, DR GOBOTSWANG: Thank you Honourable Batswana are waiting for the electric car, that is their Member. That is the truth, and their intention is to stay in greatest concern, that is what you stated in the manifesto power forever and overthrow Governments. What they of Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) that when you are have done is that, they took power by force at Serowe, elected into power, that is what you were going to do. so, where are the interests of the people members of We did not expect that, at this moment this Bill will be Domkrag? your priority and will take precedence over all the other things that are there, and that is why I am saying I do not HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. support this Bill that has been put before us. DR GOBOTSWANG: What are you saying about the MR SPEAKER: On what points are you standing views of the people of Serowe? What are you saying Honourable members? about the people who…

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Sit down Honourable Member. MR SPEAKER: Oh! I see. DR GOBOTSWANG: Oh, thank you. So why is that DR GOBOTSWANG (SEFHARE- one standing up… RAMOKGONAMI): Thank you Mr Speaker. Let me get into the issue of what we are saying in regards to MR SPEAKER: Please switch off your microphone. floor crossing by Councilors. I am against this Bill that Honourable Members, as that concludes the business on is used in preventing floor crossing by Councilors. The today’s Order Paper, I shall now call upon His Honour reason being that our colleagues failed to clearly state the Vice President to move a Motion of adjournment. what their reasons are centered on. That is why in the MOTION end, because they failed to explain themselves, one will just think that oh! That means that they have a problem. ADJOURNMENT People are fed up, they have lost hope on them, they are LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): abandoning them, now they want to lock them in a cage, Thank you Mr Speaker. Let me allow this House to and have a lockdown in the party. adjourn, so that the Honourable Members can go and HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… rest. I can see that floor crossing has demotivated them.

DR GOBOTSWANG: Let us look at their reason, Question put and agreed to. they say they want to protect voters, but this issue was The Assembly accordingly adjourned at 6:35p.m. until mentioned as an example of not protecting the voters, Tuesday 15th December, 2020 at 11:00 a.m. the issue of Serowe, where the voters of Serowe have elected the governance of Opposition parties, led by the Botswana Patriotic Front (BPF). The people of Serowe were clear, and what did the members of Domkrag do? They took a lot if their members to council, thus destroying the wishes of the people, even in other Councils, they brought their own specially elected Councilors. Those who were rejected by the people and lost the elections, you went and appointed them at Councils, and do you think people are impressed about that? The people are not happy, they do not want things like that.

MR REATILE: Clarification. Thank you Mr Speaker, Honourable Gobotswang, that issue you are talking about, is it the one that we often hear about, of dictators in their Governments, that they are people who have an art of dilution of votes? Is this what this is about?

38 Hansard No 200 HANSARD RECORDERS Mr. T. Gaodumelwe, Mr T. Monakwe, Ms T. Kebonang HANSARD REPORTERS Mr M. Buti, Ms Z. Molemi, Mr J. Samunzala, Ms N. Selebogo, Ms A. Ramadi, Ms D. Thibedi, Ms G. Baotsi, Ms N. Mokoka

HANSARD EDITORS Ms K. Nyanga, Ms C. Chonga, Mr K. Goeme, Ms G. Phatedi, Ms B. Malokwane, Mr A. Mokopakgosi, Ms O. Nkatswe, Ms G. Lekopanye, Ms T. Mokhure, Ms B. Ratshipa, Ms M. Madubeko

HANSARD TRANSLATORS Ms B. Ntisetsang, Ms M. Sekao, Ms B. Mosinyi, Ms V. Nkwane, Ms N. Kerobale, Ms K. Motswakhumo, Ms T. Motsau, Ms O. Phesodi, Mr K. Setswe

LAYOUT DESIGNERS Mr B. B. Khumanego, Mr D. T. Batshegi, Mr K. Rebaisakae

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