[Wednesday, 10 November 1982] 424923

over the Perch metropolitan area must take into account many factors in calculating equitable charges. Dozens of possible combinations of ser- Wednesday, 10 November 1982 vice charges and allowance and usage charges are applicable. The PRESIDENT (the Hon. Clive Griffiths) The charges based on valuations levied after took the Chair at 4.30 p.m., and read prayers. the general valuation of 1980 highlighted several existing inequities, and -as a result the Minister QUESTIONS formed a working party to share the task of Questions were taken at this stage. finding fair and reasonable ways of making charges. Studies by the working party and the authority METROPOLITAN WATER SUPPLY, are continuing. This Bill provides flexi- bility to implement acceptable SEWERAGE, AND DRAINAGE findings. AMENDMENT BILL (No. 3) The authority has a responsibility to advise the Minister as to the aggregate charges tailored to Receipt and First Reading the revenue requirements necessary to meet the Bill received from the Assembly; and, on needs of providing water services. motion by the Hon. G, E. Masters (Minister for In the past the Minister and the Cabinet have Labour and Industry), read a First time. accepted the responsibility of setting the aggre- gate amounts of charges levied. This process will Second Reading continue, but the Bill provides that this be flexible THE HON. C. E. MASTERS (West-Minister by the use of regulations required to be approved for Labour and Industry) [5.07 p.m.]: I move- by the Governor. That the Bill be now read a second time. The remainder of this Bill makes necessary While this Bill relates to the Metropolitan Water legislative provisions to take into account the Authority Amendment Bill in respect of drainage improvements in legislation relating to water ser- it also contains an important feature concerning vices provided under the amendments contained rating. in the Metropolitan Water Authority Bill. There- fore, the Bill repeals the drainage provisions of In that regard the Bill makes provision fur new the principal Act. methods of rating which will provide additional It is sufficient to say here that the whole matter flexibility in setting levels of rating and charging of drainage is one of the most inadequate features to take into account the requirements of the com- of the existing Act, unsatisfactory both- to the munity. This is done by means of regulations Metropolitan Water Authority and to local made by the Governor, on the recommendation of authorities alike. The proposals contained in two the Minister after the Minister has had consul- Bills before the House are the result of long dis- tation with the authority. cussions with local authorities as well as an analy- Methods of making fair and reasonable charges sis of the role of the authority itself. for water services have been studied extensively In a piece of legislation as complex as the prin- and studies currently are being made here in cipal Act, which this Bill is to amend, there are Western Australia. The charges obviously must what might be called inherited problems of legis- be set at such levels that the authority has enough lation which must be very carefully reviewed to income to provide the water services that the com- make certain that a change in one portion does munity expects and is willing to pay for. not make another portion inconsistent. That is the For the average domestic consumer, the way in major reason that drafting to modernise this legis- which the amount of his water services bill is cal- lation has taken longer than had been hoped. culated is relatively simple. It appears the Perth As an example of the problems the principal community now generally accepts the principle of Act caused, members are referred to the proposal paying for both services and use of its domestic for the definition of "drain" to be replaced with a water supply. It is a fair and equitable arrange- new term "property sewer". It is well known to ment, and with the introduction earlier this year everyone what is meant by a drain. It is simply a of the flexible methods of payment of bills and way to carry off surplus water such as after heavy billing of the owner rather than the occupier rain. But in the year of 1909, when the principal further advantages result. Act was formulated, a drain was a way to carry It now may be generally appreciated that the sewage, which by definition could include faecal supply of services of water, sewerage and drainage matter, urine, and liquid wastes, whether dom- 4924 4924[COUNCIL] estic or otherwise. That definition of "drain" con- amendment is to define a drain as simply some- tinued in the present legislation until this day. thing that is used to carry away surplus water This Bill provides the opportunity to bring the rather than confusing the term with sewage dis- situation up to date by making the distinction be- posal as it has been used since the 1909 legislation tween a property sewer as defined in this Bill and was originally enacted. a drain as defined anew in the companion legis- At present, many other major aspects of drain- lation. age are either not dealt with or are dealt with It is interesting to note that the words "drain", inadequately in the Metropolitan Water Supply, "drains", or "drainage", occur about 200 times in Sewerage, and Drainage Act. Consequently, in the principal Act. They occur in many different the companion Bill, the part dealing with drain- sections and also with different meanings from age is to be repealed and associated changes are our present meaning. Therefore, we cannot simply proposed to other sections. This provides the op- amend the word "drain" and hope that all the 200 portunity for a completely new and comprehen- uses of it fit the amendment. Instead, we must sive approach to drainage. have a careful analysis of the present laws and the An arterial drainage scheme is to be prepared desired laws, and this must take time to ac- in consultation with local councils and appropri- complish. ate authorities. As the name implies, this arterial I point out that a companion Bill which seeks to drainage scheme or plan is intended to show, in amend the Metropolitan Water Authority Act is time, the lines of arterial drains that thread to follow, and I will seek to have it discussed con- through the metropolitan area. It will include currently with this Bill at the second reading drainage catchments, lakes, swamps, wetlands, stage. rivers and streams, existing and proposed drains, I commend the Bill to the House. as well as lands that will benefit from drainage and that contribute to the need for drainage, and Debate adjourned, on motion by the Hon. the existing and the proposed drainage system. Robert Hetherington. The arterial drainage plan may be thought of METROPOLITAN WATER AUTHORITY as a set of maps which show, for the metropolitan area, the general way the drainage works nat- AMENDMENT HILL urally and with man-made drains. It is not in any Receipt and First Reading way a statutory scheme in the sense of a town Bill received from the Assembly; and, on planning scheme. In fact, a great deal of the suc- motion by the Hon. G. E. Masters (Minister for cess of the plan will come from the fact that the Labour and Industry), read a first time. authority can work with local authorities, poten- tial and actual developers, private landowners, Second Reading and town planning, environmental, and other bodies in planning what the drainage system THE HION. C. E. MASTERS (West-Minister should be. for Labour and Industry) [5. 13 p.m.]: I move- The arterial drainage plan is intended ulti- That the Bill be now read a second time. mately to show all the matters contained in the This Bill is designed to update two important pro- legislation. At present, it exists in part in the form visions of drainage and works, It consolidates of overlay maps, in the vesting of metropolitan these matters and provides also for more equitable main drains in the authority and of other drains arrangements with regard to land, entry onto with local authorities; but for some years it is land, the rights of the landowner or occupier, and likely to remain a dynamically evolving plan being several other issues which I will cover. developed in a co-operative way by the authorities It had been hoped to present to Parliament dur- involved. ing this session a Bill which would completely up- Attention must be given realistically to the way date all the provisions for metropolitan water ser- that drains are built and managed as well as being vices. However, this has not been possible due to designed merely as lines on maps, and the legis- the complexity of legal and drafting aspects, and lation deals with this also. In the first place, if this Bill represents those portions of legislation practicable, drainage courses will be declared. that cover several important issues. The idea of drainage courses and provision for The attention of members is directed to the their declaration is introduced for the first time so proposed definition of "drain" as compared with as to assist in forward planning. A drainage that currently in the Metropolitan Water Supply. course may be thought of as being like a road re- Sewerage, and Drainage Act. The purpose of this serve, whereby notice is given in advance of the (Wednesday, 10 November 1982]192 4925 possible use of a swathe of land for drainage. subway, for instance, on their way to or from Where practicable, existing topography and work and expect the road not to be flooded. watercourses may be used as drainage courses. These possible benefits, as well as possible re- The Bill provides that notice be given of a pro- charge of aquifers by surplus water and the pres- posal to declare a drainage course, and for nego- ervation and management of wetlands, are all fac- tiations and objections. Problems may occur in tors that must be considered. the declaration of drainage courses, as they The present Metropolitan Water Supply, usually do in forward-planning and in reserves of Sewerage, and Drainage Act does not take these land. Provision is made for negotiations with factors into account in sections relating to drain- owners and local authorities to overcome such age. Therefore the companion Bill makes pro- problems as far as practicable. vision to repeal entirely the part dealing with Procedures are provided where some arterial drainage so that these new provisions can come drains or portions of them are to be declared main into effect. drains, in which case it is the responsibility of the It is believed that the comprehensive new ap- authority to maintain them. In order for the auth- proach taken by this Bill, particularly as regards ority to be able to do so, certain powers are given the idea of and approach to an arterial drainage scheme, will overcome the difficulties of what has to it to control blocking of a main drain, or Pol- lution of it, and connection to it, and other similar often been a most contentious issue. Extensive dis- powers detailed in the Bill. cussions were held with local government officers about the intention of this approach, and with the The scheme will still allow for some drainage correct and necessary co-operation, this approach control and rating by local authorities. The auth- will work effectively. ority can rate for drainage only for drainage areas served by existing main drains or proposed ones. The Bill provides for the authority to carry out works in three categories. Firstly, major works in- In order to ensure that the rights of an individ- clude the construction of dams, wastewater ual or local authority are protected, the authority treatment plants, and other defined works; sec- cannot declare a main drain unless it is in a drain- ondly, general works include construction of age course, an easement, or reserve, or has the mains for water supply, mains for sewerage, agreement of the owner or occupier. The proposal pumping stations, and other specified works; and also must be advertised, and provision is made for thirdly, exempt works which are more in the objections. nature of routine maintenance and repair work. The authority may recommend, and the Minis- The three categories will ensure appropriate pub- ter may propose and, after having regard to objec- lic notices, attention to the rights of local tions, may declare a drainage area. A drainage authorities, individual landowners, and occupiers, area is one that benefits or will benefit from, or as well as more efficient administration and oper- contributes or will contribute to the need for ations in the field. drainage services. Therefore, a drainage area is Major works require wide public advertising one for which drainage charges may be required. and notice being served on affected local The difficulty of framing legislation about authorities and landowners. Provision is made for comments drainage in a metropolitan area such as Perth is and objections and, where practicable, alterations that it must provide for the present situation as to meet those objections. The approval of the Minister well as plan for the future. It must take into ac- is necessary, and the authority must report to him on the objections and whether count the responsibilities and the work done by they have been met. local authorities as well as by the authority or its predecessor, the Metropolitan Water Supply, General works require more limited notifi- Sewerage and Drainage Board. It must take into cation-in this case, to the local authority and account the topography and the natural water- any landowner likely to be adversely affected. courses, and the role these play and have played Again, objections and comments can be made. in drainage. It Must take into account financial If they cannot be met, or if the authority desires aspects, such as headworks charges for major de-* to deviate from the publicised plans beyond speci- velopment proposals as well as the drainage fled limits, the approval of the Minister is re- charges and rates paid by owners of small blocks quired. of land. It must take into account the possible If the Minister considers that a proposed gen- community benefits of drainage, which may apply eral works may be of sufficient general interest, in these modern days even to people who do not he may direct the authority to advertise and own land in an area, but who may drive through a otherwise treat it as a major work. For exempt 4926 4926COUNC IL] works to be constructed on private land, the some of the more general powers in the specifi- owner of the land must request the authority to do cation of its broad functions in such a way as to the work. In matters of routine maintenance and ensure recognition of the broad responsibilities repair, the Bill makes the entry provisions appli- and duties of the authority. cable as they are for all entry onto private land. Mr President, in commending the Bill to the A new part is given to the important matter of House, I seek leave also to have it and the preced- entry. The provisions are modelled along the lines ing Bill discussed concurrently at the second read- of the provisions of the State Energy Commission ing stage in accordance with Standing Order No. Act. Except (or emergencies and where it is sus- 246. pected that the requirements of the Act are being Debate adjourned, on motion by the Hon. violated, prior notice must be given to the owner Robert Hetherington. and the occupier. The authority is empowered to gather infor- LOCAL GOVERNMENT AMENDMENT BILL mation about engineering matters and to carry (No. 4) out investigations of a general and a specific nature, It may investigate underground water Receipt and First Reading resources. In all works empowered by this Bill received from the Assembly; and, on legislation, the authority must ensure, so far as is motion by the Hon. R. G. Pike (Chief Secretary), reasonable and practicable, that as little as read a first time. possible inconvenience or detriment results. If there is some damage after entry or works, Second Reading provision is made for the authority to make good THE HON. R. G. PIKE (North Metro- the damage. If it cannot be made good, provision politan-Chief Secretary) [5.25 p.m.1: I move- is made for compensation. That the Bill be now read a second time. The authority may now enter into agreements This Bill proposes amendments to the Local in its own right with owners of land, so as to ob- Governmnrt Act in two areas-in respect of sale tain or use portions of land. It may also lease land of land by municipal councils, and the conduct of if it has no immediate use for it. municipal audits. This Bill therefore ensures there are ways other The power already in the Act for a council to than through the resumption powers under the sell land is proposed to be amended in two ways. Public Works Act for the authority to have land The first proposes to remove the need for councils vested in it or acquired. to obtain approval to sell land to State Govern- Concern has been expressed that sufficient new ment agencies. Members will recall that the Act general valuations may not be available for the was amended recently to allow councils without entire area served by the authority in order for it approval to lease land by private treaty to State to calculate equitable rates. It will be appreciated Government agencies, and the extension of a that the Valuation of Land Act provisions are di- similar power to sale transactions reflects the rected towards valuations for different district Government's policy of reviewing the need for shires or council areas. For each one of these, gen- approvals as an ongoing process. eral valuations may be in different stages of The second amendment proposes the completion at a time of the year when the auth- introduction of a power for councils to sell or ority must consider all 26 such areas or districts. otherwise dispose of land which they hold under a Provision is made for the circumstance where trust. This amendment was initiated as a result of insufficient complete general valuations are a problem encountered by the City of Stirling, available for the overall purposes of the authority. which wishes to dispose of some land held by it The Minister may then empower the authority to under a trust for recreation purposes to an organ- use in the next rating year the valuations which isation proposing to develop an aged persons' are shown in the current rating year. Provisions home. Council obtained the approval of its elec- made under that circumstance ensure continued tors under the existing provisions of the Act to limitation of annual increases of amounts charged vary the trust but was unable to proceed further and continued provision for payment by instal- as there is no power to transfer land held under a ments and other measures approved by Parlia- trust. ment in the last session. It is proposed that the proceeds of the sale of Although this Bill does not cover all the mat- any such land shall be applied by a council for the ters which the Minister had hoped it would, it is purpose for which the land was held immediately considered practicable to give to the authority before its sale. Where the land is disposed of [Wednesday, 10 November 19821 492792 otherwise than by sale, it is intended that the per- trustee of a cemetery, the person who is the audi- son to whom the land is to be disposed will be re- tor of that municipality shall carry out also the quired to execute a declaration of trust declaring audit of the cemetcry board. that he will hold the land for the purpose far In other cases the audit will remain the re- which it was held by the council immediately be- sponsibility of the Auditor General. fore its disposal. I commend the Bill to the House. The second area of amendment proposed re- lates to municipal audits and is intended to facili- Debate adjourned, on motion by the Hon. Lyla tate the transfer of these audits from the public to Elliott. the private sector. At present, only I 1 of the 139 municipalities in Western Australia are audited PETROLEUM RETAILERS RIGHTS AND by private auditors, with the balance audited by LIABILITIES BILL the Auditor General. Receipt and First Reading The Bill proposes the establishment of a local Bill received from the Assembly; and, on mo- government auditors' board which will have auth- tion by the Hon. R. G. Pike (Chief Secretary), ority to regisIt persons as local government audi- read a first time. tors and to cancel such registrations. It is intended that councils be free to appoint as their Second Reading auditors persons who are registered by the board to be constituted under regulations made under THE HON. R. G. PIKE (North Metro- politan-Chief Secretary) [5.30 p.m.]: I move- the Act. time. Although it is intended that local government That the Bill be now read a second audits be generally transferred to the private sec- This Bill is introduced to define the rights and tor, provision is made in the Bill for audits to be liabilities of persons occupying land for the pur- carried out by the Auditor General where a coun- pose of selling motor fuel by retail. cil is unable to obtain the services of a private In April 1975 the Trade Practices Commission auditor under reasonable terms and conditions. considered clearance notices and authorisation I commend the Bill to the House. applications concerning transactions between the Shell Debate adjourned, on motion by the I-on. Lyla major oil companies, including the Company of Australia Limited, and their respect- Elliott. ive service station operators. The franchise ar- rangements or lease agreements then existing CEMETERIES AMENDMENT BILL commonly required the reseller to deal only in the Receipt and First Reading particular supplier's brand of petroleum products. Bill received from the Assembly; and, on They provided also, inter alia, for controls over motion by the Hion. Rt. G. Pike (Chief Secretary), other goods and services in which the reseller read a first time. might trade. The commission decided to hold a public hear- Second Reading ing into the Shell Company of Australia Limited's authorisation applications and on 9 December THE HON. R. G. PIKE (North Metro- 1975 delivered its determination politan-Chief Secretary) [5.29 p.m.]: I move- dismissing the applications for authorisation of the restrictive That the Bill be now read a second time. contracts concerned. The applications of the other This Bill contains a minor amendment to the major oil companies were later evaluated by the Cemeteries Act as a consequence of an amend- commission and were likewise dismissed. ment proposed to the Local Government Act to The commission's position on subsequent agree- transfer municipal audits from the public to the ments-that is, those in force after 30 June private sector. The Act presently requires the ac- 1976-had the effect that lessee dealers should counts of cemetery boards, including those for have the right to purchase up to 50 per cent of which municipal councils act as trustees, to be their supplies from other than their landlord sup- audited by the Auditor General. pliers. Regrettably, the definitive determination of In view of the changes proposed to be made to the Trade Practices Commission was not then en- the municipal audit system, it is necessary to shrined in legislation by the Commonwealth and, make complementary changes to the provisions of in spite of attempts by this and other State the Cemeteries Act relating to audit. The Bill pro- Governments, the Commonwealth has shown a vides that, where a council of a municipality is the complete disinclination to enact legislation in 4928 4928[COUNCIL] what is seen by State Governments to be a matter APPROPRIATION of vital national importance. (CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND) BILL The consequence has been that very few lessee Consideration of Tabled Paper dealers of petrol stations have taken advantage of Debate resumed from 3 November. the purchase rights determined by the Trade THE HON. P. H. LOCKYER (Lower North) Practices Commission, presumably because they [5.35 p.mn.]: I take this opportunity to congratu- have felt insecure and practical difficulty was late the Government and the Treasurer for bal- involved in exercising that right. ancing the State's finances once again. It is in- Accordingly, this Government has decided to dicative of the great job that our Premier and introduce legislation to put beyond doubt the Treasurer is doing in this State; he is carrying on rights and liabilities of lessee dealers in petroleum the fine job of the previous Premier (Sir Charles retailing. The legislation introduced is innovative Court). and thus will be subject to testing as to its effec- When reading the Estimates for the present tiveness. financial year, I noted chat the Department of Fisheries and Wildlife has a budget provision of While it is fundamentally based on the struc- $7.107 million. Part of this budget is to be spent ture of similar legislation enacted in Victoria it on kangaroo eradication and the kangaroo shoot- seeks to overcome the several constraints in that ing industry, in particular. legislation which seem to have made it ineffective I wish to bring to the attention of the House a in practice. film titled "Goodbye Joey" which was made in The legislation seeks to protect the respective Canberra. Some two or three weeks ago this film rights of the lessor and lessee and provides was brought to the attention of the people of machinery for the resolution of disputes between Western Australia by an article in the Daily News. the parties. Penalties to a maximum of $5 000 are provided for offences committed by any person I do not wish to bore the House by reading the who fails to comply with any provision of the whole article; therefore, I seek leave of the House to have it incorporated in Hansard because I will legislation. refer to it in my speech- It is emphasised that this Bill is not designed to be a legislative catch-all in the complex area of Incorporation of Material petroleum marketing. It seeks not to control oil By leave of the House, the following material company involvement in the total marketing pro- was incorpora ted- cess beyond the provisions of section 10 of the 'Film will shock the world' Commonwealth Retail Marketing Sites Act. That section limits the number of sites which oil Eight professional kangaroo shooters sit companies may own and operate as retail sites. It around a campfire near Queanbeyan, brew- ing billy tea and exchanging yarns. does, however, seek to create an improvement in the bargaining power of the lessee dealer in his The scene, set in bushland just south of negotiations with his landlord supplier and better Canberra, has a faintly comforting all-Aus- tralian air of mateship and harmony with the to provide for the freedom of choice which is an bush. essential part of the private enterprise system. But, as the cameras roll, the shooters rack The legislation is designed to promote compe- their minds for treasured tales of the tition and give greater freedom to the exercise of cruellest things they have heard done, or independent business judgment by resellers. done themselves, to kangaroos. A desirable effect which it is believed may be They talk of the "kicks" they get from achieved by this legislation is better competition slitting open a kangaroo while it is alive to in respect of product price resulting in a lowering rip out the heart and feel it thumping in their of the wholesale price to retailers which will, in bloodied hands. turn, be passed on to motorists. They have tested the life of a kangaroo by seeing how many limbs and parts can be axed I commend the Bill to the House. off before its agonised death. Debate adjourned, on motion by the Hon. D. K. And they have driven by Land-Rover Dans (Leader of the Opposition). alongside kangaroos, decapitating them with [Wednesday, 10 November 1982]192 4929

machetes to see them run 60 metres "before "That has to happen to animals as well." they realise their heads are missing". Dr Cairns disputes the headlines that The shooters' fireside yarns make one scream about kangaroo plagues in Victoria. scene of a documentary-"Goodbye "Some areas of Australia have a suf- ioey"-that may soon, perhaps with some ficiently large number of kangaroos to be a censoring, be brought to our TV screens. problem to pastoralists," he said. It is believed that Channel 7 has begun "But this is certainly not the case in Vic- negotiations to show the 95-minute documen- toria. I have no doubt that there is no plague tary. here." But the film, originally made for the ex- Wally Curran, a meatworkers' union rep- port market, will be sold in its gruesome en- resentative for 25 years, takes a surprisingly tirety overseas. conservationist attitude to the supposed It is the work of Peter Cunningham, a for- plagues of kangarods. mer ABC cinematographer and film-maker "Sure, some roos do create problems for for the Defence Department in Canberra. farmers," he said. Mr Cunningham said he began the film as "But I know that some people create prob- a money-making enterprise, but it took only lems for farmers, too-but you don't go out a couple of weeks to put him off eating and shoot them. hamburgers and small-goods forever. "We all have to learn to drop our destruc- He said: "I always did have some sym- tive ways and start to appreciate and look pathy for animals but I wasn't a hardline or after beauty and nature. even softline conservationist. "The kangaroo is a magnificent animal." "But the kangaroo industry is the most dis- gusting and covered-up situation I've ever Mr Curran believes that the illegal slaugh- heard of. ter and trade in kangaroos is bigger than most imagine. He said the Woodward Royal "This is a documentary that will shock the Commission may have cooled the market, world." but it would flourish again when beef prices Mr Cunningham leaves Australia soon to rose. sell the film to Japan, England, the U.S., "It is my view that there is a large amount Canada, Germany and Sweden-among of roo meat still being kept in freezers to be them nations that have bought kangaroo released into the local or export market at meat. the first opportune time," he said. The documentary includes comment by "It can only be stopped if the laws are former Deputy Prime Minister Dr Jim made clear and they are enforced by tighten- Cairns, Victorian secretary of the Australian ing up inspection points, establishing ways of Meat Industry Employees' Union, Mr Wally proving types of meat and giving the Curran, and RSPCA Victorian president, Dr public Hugh Wirth. the right to sue companies for selling falsified meat. Dr Cairns said he believed kangaroos, "like nature and Aboriginals", were savagely "So far the laxities of law have been some- mistreated and neglected in Australia. thing disgraceful and a lot of people have a lot to answer for." He said laws and regulations governing the treatment of kangaroos were inefficient, Mr Curran said kangaroo meat was partly through lack of interest by enforcers. dangerous and unsuitable for human con- sumption, no matter how it was killed or And he says on film that he believes handled.' governments are heavily linked to the indus- try in Australia. "The people in the trade are fly-by- nighters," he said. He said: "The treatment of animals and "They've got a nature is the most important issue for us-it gung-ho mentality, just in is the only issue that counts. it to make a fast hundred thousand dollars, or even a million. "There are increasing signs that people interested in commerce are beginning to see "And believe me, there is big money in it." the great significance of conserving what Even if kangaroos were harvested as a they have been exploiting. commercial venture, with strict supervision

(155) 4930 [COUNCIL] and controls, the range and danger of exotic Allegations were made in this programme diseases were so prevalent that the meat may stating it was general practice for people involved not be lit even for cats and dogs, he said. in the kangaroo shooting industry to be cruel "No one can tell me that roo meat can when killing animals. I would like to say publicly ever be as good as beqf," he said. that this is not the case. "They are riddled with hydatids and sal- The people involved with the making of the monella." film, Peter Cunningham and his wife, Lynette He said the attitudes to meat inspection in Guilfoyle, I believe have been misleading and mis- Australia suggested that if an unscrupulous chievous; or they are being promoted by such person wished, he could get anything into the people as the Animal Liberation Society. local human food chain. The Hon. Lyla Elliott: A very good organis- He cited a "near miss" in northern Vic- toria earlier this year when a farmer fed his ation! pigs with the carcass of a cow that had died of anthrax. The Hon. R. H. LOCKYER: These people have stepped into an area they know nothing about. I "it was only the quickness of the vet. in believe the Animal Liberation Society is support- diagnosing that the pigs got diseased that ing them and I have evidence that the canned pet stopped dozens of them being sold into the food people have their hand in the matter as well. market," Mr Curran said. I challenge them to come clean. If the canned pet A farmer's letter to the Melbourne rural food industry is involved, it should say so; if not, it publication Weekly Times this year has been should deny it. promoted by wildlife groups to show that cal- lousness by, shooters sometimes goes hand-in- I want to refer to some of the ludicrous claims hand with the money machine. which were made. One of the more gruesome claims made by the President of the Australian The letter argued against an RSPCA ap- Wildlife Protection Council on the "Nationwide" peal for shooters to stop and inspect shot programme was that the animals' limbs were kangaroos to make sure they were properly killed. chopped off and that they were shipped interstate on semi-trailers and kept alive so that the pet The farmer said: "This is ridiculous . .. if meat was fresh. He claimed that ex-Government they stopped, the first kangaroo shot would meat inspectors said it was cruel and it went on be the last one shot for that night. The rest every day. I refute that totally. I have made in- would escape to the safety of the scrub." quiries throughout the shooting industry and I Debate Resumed have never heard such nonsense as the suggestion The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: While on this sub- that a professional kangaroo shooter would ject I think it is appropriate to mention that Mr transport a kangaroo live so it could arrive in a MacKinnon, in his capacity as the Minister for fresh condition. It is beyond the realms of Fisheries and Wildlife, introduced int'T this House possibility to suggest that this would go on. legislation to cover the harvesting of kangaroos. I quote Mr Cunningham from the No doubt he will listen closely to my comments. "Nationwide" programme-and I am happy to The film which was made in Canberra depicts table this document-when he stated- the shooting industry as a vile and cruel oper- ation. Last Wednesday evening I had the oppor- S.. when you go out to shoot an animal, you tunity to watch excerpts from the film on know, are you going to aim for the smallest "Nationwide". part of the animal or the largest part, I would like to make the point that I admire the It goes on- "Nationwide" team for the balanced way in Now if you aim for the head, there's a bet- which they presented the subject. They heard ter chanc 'e that you're going to miss that ani- both sides. I took the trouble to obtain a mal than if you aim for the largest part, transcript of the segment from the ABC. which is usually the top of the leg Or the hip. The professional kangaroo shooting industry in Now, I suggest in some cases, in a lot of Western Australia is a small and efficient oper- cases, that the shooters don't aim for the ation which is essential to the pastoralists, and head, which is the most humane area to kill some pastoralists in my electorate have expressed it, they aim for the hip, the animal goes down concern about it. The harvesting of kangaroos is and it can lie, and I quote the words of a pro- carried out also in farming areas, but I am speak- fessional 'roo, shooter, "it can lie in that state ing only of how it affects my electorate. for up to a week". [Wednesday, 10 November 1982J193 4931 The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: That is a lot of It is wrong that people should enter a debate rubbish. If you hit it in the hip it would damage like this when they know nothing about the sub- the greatest amount of meat. I was out three ject other than what they have learned from this nights with shooters; they shoot in the head or the film. These people have evidence, because I saw heart. the excerpts on "Nationwide". If they have such The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: Mr MacKinnon is information, they should take it to the appropriate well versed in these matters. The person in this authorities such as the RSPCA or the courts, and State who has probably more knowledge than have people prosecuted. If this sort of thing is most in this industry is Mr Bruce Teede who is going on-and I cannot knock it because it is on one of the more senior operators. He believes the film-it is not being done by professional person in Government and ministerial circles who kangaroo shooters. It is being done by a bunch of knows most about the industry is Mr MacKinnon. louts and fly-by-nighters. They should be The Hon. Graham MacKinnon is right in saying prosecuted. The people making these claims have that no kangaroo shooter, especially one shooting a responsibility to take the offenders to the for a living and who is paid for the amount of appropriate authorities and have them prosecuted. meat taken off a carcase, would ever aim any- where except at the head or the heart. I cannot The Hon. P. H-. Wells: The film people didn't believe people would say such things unless it arrange it, did they? were for some mischievous reason. The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: I have no idea, "Goodbye Joey" has been made specifically for but it incenses me because the people who will the American market. It has an American nar- suffer in the end are the pastora lists who are the rator, and uses an expatriate American-an ani- people least able to defend themselves. These mal liberationist, May Wilson-to drive home the people are making a film willy-nilly and taking it point that cruelty to kangaroos in Australia is not to America when probably one per cent or less of uncommon. This is not the first time this industry the industry operates in this way. It is more likely has been attacked by Animal Liberation Society to be louts or weekend shooters who give everyone members and people who would have no kanga- a bad name. The professional kangaroo shooting roos shot. In my view the kangaroo is a good ani- industry in Western Australia is second to none. mal, and one We Should be proud of in our heri- It has two very responsible association s-the tage. It is also a destructive animal and it is not Kangaroo Processors' Association and the Kanga- good if it goes unchecked throughout the pastoral roo Shooters' Association. Both are headed by re- industry. In the past, these people have stopped a sponsible people who know what they are doing. lucrative American market by stirring up trouble work hard. The shooters in and bringing this matter to the fore. This market Their committees has only just been restored. Western Australia, especially those in my elector- ate, are very responsible, hard-working people. It Mr Cunningham and his wife, and the people hurts them to have fly-by-nighters from obscure who made the film, are being mischievous, and places like Canberra come out of their air-con- are trying to stop a lucrative section of the meal ditioned offices once or twice a decade and make and skin export market by taking this film to a stupid film. If Mr Cunningham and his wife America. It would be wrong for any further press- want to come to Western Australia and be taken ure to be put on the kangaroo industry. The Fed- through the shooting industry. I will be happy to eral Government twice in Budgets has raised the arrange it. It will show them that what they have sales tax on pet food products. In the first instance the sales tax went from 0 to 17.5 per on film is an isolated case. cent, which set back the industry tremendously. The Hon. Neil McNeill: Are they going to sell This year. unbelievably, the Federal Government it to the US? increased the sales tax by another 2.5 per cent so that it is now 20 per cent. Only a limited market The Hon. D. K. Dans: Certainly they are. for pet food exists in Australia and Western The Hon. P. H. LQCKYER: I agree; probably Australia in particular, and it is important that these people are considering the almighty dollar. I people should be able to get the -product at a am probably giving them free advertising. If they reasonable price. As soon as the price went up, are going to make a dollar, let them make a film people started to go to butchers' shops to buy about the truth. scraps of meat that attracted no sales tax, and they fed their pets in that way. The sale of pet The Hon. Carry Kelly: Have you seen the film? food has decreased and that has an effect right The Hon. P. H-. LOCKYER: I have seen ex- down the line. Pastoralists have difficulty getting cerpts on "Nationwide". people to go onto their properties to shoot the animals professionally. The Hon. Garry Kelly: Not the lot? 4932 4932[COUNCIL)

The Mon. P. H-.LOCKYER: I will pass this ex- were asked in this House. Figures are starting to cerpt to Mr Kelly to read. come in from that study. The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: Have you dis- Once again I make an appeal concerning fish missed the suggestion that it may have been subsi- traps. I carried out some research on this matter dised by some other association? to determine whether I was the only one putting forward this plea, especially as I had been putting The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: I am suggesting, Mr Wordsworth, that the Animal Liberation So- it forward for some years. I am happy to say that ciety and/or perhaps the canned pet food industry my research showed a question was asked in might have had a hand in it. They can deny that another place on Wednesday, I1I November 1964. if they want to. It appears on page 2475 of Hansard. The Leader The Hon. Robert H-etherington: What are you of the Opposition will be pleased to know that the suggesting? Are you suggesting they have done question was asked by Mr Harry Fletcher. something improper? The Hon. Fred McKenzie: A good member! The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: I am suggesting The Hon. P. H. LOCICYER: Anyone who con- that if the Animal Liberation Society is stooping siders the Shark Bay fishery must be a man of to this type of thing to stop the kangaroo shooting note! In those days Mr Ross Hutchinson-now industry, it should be taken to task. Other Sir Ross Hutchinson-was the Minister for methods are available. Incidentally, I do not op- Fisheries and Mr Fletcher asked him the pose all that the Animal Liberation Society stands following question- for. Probably it is composed of responsible people Will he make known departmental -people trying to do the right thing. intentions regarding use of Fish traps in The Hon. Robert Hetherington: I just want to Shark Bay area- know what you are saying. (a) continued use; The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: I am saying that I (b) partial use; or believe it is involved in this, and that is bad. (c) abolition when? The Hon. D. K. Dans: There are more kanga- That is an intelligent question, and one I have roos here today than when the white man arrived. asked about four times in this place. The Hon. G. E. Masters: That is right. The Hon. R. T. Leeson: Was it answered? The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: That is an The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: I received the interesting point. Although I was not able to ob- same answer as did Mr Fletcher. It seems there is tain the total figure, when I spoke to the officers always a deputation. The answer read- of the Department of Fisheries and Wildlife I was Recently a deputation from the Fremantle informed of a planning programme that had op- Fishermen's Co-operative requested that fish erated over a number of years. The Han. G. C. traps be banned for the catching of snapper. MacKinnon will be well aware of these figures. In addition evidence submitted by fishermen Approximately seven or eight years ago a forecast to the Fishermen's Advisory Committee re- was made of the kangaroo population, and it is cently in opposition to the use of traps is interesting that the estimate is within a few being checked and analysed. hundred of the actual population figure today. This points out that the industry is being well con- It has taken I8 years to be analysed. The trolled and organised. answered con tinued- I will turn now to another subject, which is The honourable member is advised, there- close to my heart: the fishing industry. In my fore, that the whole question of the use of electorate the fishing industry is at the crossroads. snapper traps in Shark Bay is now under con- Over the last few years the snapper industry in sideration. particular has been under pressure because of The Hon. D. K. Dans: Have the results of Mr dwindling catches. Members of this House have Masters' studies been computed yet? heard me ask questions about this matter. One The Hon. R. T. Leeson: Rome was not built in such question was to the then Minister for a day!. Fisheries and Wildlife (the Hon. G. E. Masters). The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: In all seriousness, The Hon. D. K. Dans: You would not get much the sad fact of the matter is-and I do not care action there. about deputations, inquiries, investigations, or The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: Quite the con- anything else-snapper fishermen in Carnarvon trary. Mr Dans. The Hon. G. E. Masters Set Up a are catching less snapper today than they did 1O study into the snapper industry after questions years ago, and less snapper this year than last [Wednesday, 10 November 1982] 434933 year. We must protect the snapper lop fishery and has taken steps to close the Shark fishermen-and here I am talking about the ones Bay scallop fishery for some months. who operate with a line; that is, wetline I understand that negotiations are taking place fishermen. to close the scallop fishery from I November this I do not think any member would disagree with year until 1 February 1982, and from I me when I say that snapper traps are bad. They November 1983 to I March 1984. 1 commend the bruise the fish, and they clean out the fishery. I department for the steps it has taken, it has recog- know the Minister may say no technical evidence nised that the fishery must be protected. Why is available to back up my statements, but the line cannot the same steps be taken in regard to the fisherimen-many of whom have been in the snapper fishery? business for 25 years-have a good idea of the Members may be happy to know that I have no damage being done by the snapper traps. intention of mentioning the Blowholes. It is time to take some Firm action to get rid of The Hon. P. H. Wells: It has been Fixed up. these traps. The rock lobster fishermen from The Hon. R. H. LOCKYER: I would like to Geraldton come up to Shark Bay after the rock mention the fishermen's co-operative which com- lobster season has Finished. They should be menced at Carnarvon two years ago. Like so putting their traps somewhere else. many co-operatives in this State, it floundered for The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: Perhaps, in a variety of reasons. fairness to the Minister, you will tell the House The Hon. Neil McNeill- It floundered? whether the traps are in State or Federal waters. The Hon. D. K. Dans: A very good fish that, The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: I am always as- too. tounded by such statements. If the traps are in The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: The co-operative Federal waters, I will have to stop telling the was taken up last year by a division of Kailis fishermen not to get hold of the snapper traps and Bros. Seafoods. While I do not usually name drag them to oblivion, If they took that action, people in this place, I would like to refer to this who would prosecute them-the Commonwealth company because it has done a superb job in or the State? Carnarvon. A market was made available to the The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: It is hard to get fishermen so that they could sell their fish. The someone to take action. fishermen did not have to sell all or even part of The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: If the Common- their catch through this market. A market was wealth is involved, so be it. However, as I said be- made available through which the fishermen can fore, we cannot sit here while Rome burns. We sell their fish for which they are paid on the spot. must get on with the job. If a fisherman uses this market for all his catch, a bonus is paid at the end of the year. Not all the The Hon. D. K. Dans: Those fish traps have fishermen availed themselves of this facility, but turned people away from buying snapper- They it has brought some stability into the industry. bruise the flesh. The I-In. D. K. Dans: It is going on again is it? The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: The Leader of the Opposition has impeccable taste in fish. I know The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: I understand that the type of fish he has requested to be brought Mr Kailis from Kailis Bros. Seafoods will operate down from my area. He has told me that he does again in the coming snapper season. It has worked not want snapper. I have always taken cognizance out very well indeed. of his views and I have brought him first-class whiting, usually from Shark Bay! As the Leader Sitting suspended from 6.00 to 7.30 p.m. of the Opposition says, the Fish from the snapper traps is inferior. We should be selling first-grade The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: Prior to the tea snapper only and we must protect our snapper suspension I was about to wind up my comments fishery for the people involved in the industry, about the Fishing industry. During the break I was reminded by the Hon. Margaret McAleer that The Hon. P. H. Wells: Are you saying slow- she has a thriving rock lobster industry in her learning fish are crook fish and go into the traps? electorate, based at Geraldton, and I know she The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: The honourable represents that industry extremely well. member could look in the mirror! I am saying that I would make two points about the rock lobster the rock lobster fishermen should stay out of it industry: Firstly, I do not want the people unless they want to fish with a line. involved to use snapper traps and, secondly, I do I understand the Department of Fisheries and not want to see these people at the Blowholes. A Wildlife is concerned about pressure on the scal- brand new rock lobster industry has commenced 4934 4934[COUNCIL] at Shark Bay, or Denham, and the people station. The station presently employs up to 40 involved in the industry are very welcome to work people and it would be wrong to shift the oper- this area and to expand their activities there. ation to Ceduna. I hope that in the coming weeks I shift now to the subject of the Federal the Federal Minister will make a statement either Government's placement of TV stations in remote refuting or confirming the possibility of this OTC areas. I commend the Federal Government's ac- station continuing. tion of installing these stations in areas such as I will comment now on internal airlines in Mt. Magnet, Meekatharra, Cue, Yalgoo, Western Australia. No doubt members are aware Laverton, Exmouth, Shark Bay, and Useless a report was produced recently on the operation Loop. These stations have been of great benefit to of the internal airlines in this State including the people in these regions. suggestions of this operation being opened up to Only recently I communicated with officers of allow competition on these routes. Enough has Telecom to arrange to have a station working in been said in this House at-different times about Denhanm in time for the people there to watch the the operations of Airlines of Western Australia. I Western Australian Football League grand final. will not be so parochial as to say it is the only Originally, several reasons were given that a operation to be found in W.A. station could not be ready in time for that game, Recently the Federal ALP spokesman on but fortunately the fellows involved pulled out all aviation matters said that TAA should be given stops and installed a portable generator, SO that an opportunity to operate in Western Australia. I on the morning of the grand final everything was could not agree more with that idea, although I ready. I give Cull marks to the Telecom workers. have one proviso; that is, TAA should be obliged A problem confronting places like Exmouth is to operate on exactly the same routes now op- that although repeater stations have been con- erated by Airlines of Western Australia or on structed, the Federal Department of Communi- routes not covered by the local airline. I simply cations did not take into consideration the point will not accept any deterioration of our services that 20 kilometres to the south of Exmouth is an anywhere in this State. industry run by the Mi G. Kailis fisheries group, The Hon. Peter Dowding: But it has happened; which employs in excess of 100 people. With fam- look at Wyndham. ilies and travellers in the area the number of The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: The member is people is more like 200 over 12 months of the talking about bus services. If he waits a moment I year. The remarkable thing is that at places such am sure he will realise that this is a subject on as Exmouth, the RAAF base at Learmouth, and which we both agree. the nearby Exmouth Gulf station, the people can- The Hon. Peter Dowding: Get the Minister to not receive a clear TV picture. agree. The shire brought this matter to the attention The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: The member of the Federal Department of Communications, should allow me to continue; I do not have a lot of which wrote back to the shire in more or less the regard for him at times, although at the moment following terms, "If we put a repeater mast on the we are good friends, but that may change at any edge of Rough Range, just south of Exmouth, all moment. these people will enjoy a crystal clear reception at As I said, I will not accept any deterioration in a total cost of $15 000 which, no doubt, you can our air services. I stress I am talking about jet ser- make arrangements with the people concerned to vices. In my province I use the jet services enjoyed pay. by the people of Carnarvon and Learmonth. I will I have written to the Federal Minister for Com- not accept those jet services being replaced by munications, aided by Senator Thomas from non-jet aircraft. No-one could convince me that a Western Australia, calling on the department to commuter aircraft would be cheaper, and I give finish the job it started. A sum of $15 000 com- the commuter airlines their due: They have not pared with the total cost of a TV repeater station said they could provide a cheaper service. is an infinitesimal amount. It is my belief that the If TAA wants to come to Western Australia, department has a responsibility to finish the job that is fine, but I will not accept the idea of places so that the people in these areas can enjoy a clear such as Port Hedland, which presently has a jet reception. service, being fed by commuter aircraft from It has concerned me for Some time that the Broome or Derby. At the moment people in the Overseas Telecommunications Commission north of Western Australia are extremely well station at Carnarvon might not have its contract served, and unless TAA can offer a similar service renewed in 1984 to operate the Intelsat repeater it should stay out of the area altogether. [Wednesday, 10 November 1982) 493593

The Hon. Peter Dowding raised the subject of the ALP should buy a share in Airlines of West- bus services from airports to towns in the north, ern Australia. That is an interesting point. and certainly the services at Wyndham and The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: And a share in Kununurra are causing problems to his constitu- everything else that is going! ents. This is also the case in my province, at Learmonth. The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: I do not intend to go through my electorate town by town and indi- It is approximately 30 kilometres. from the cate where the money is being spent. I am very Learmonth airstrip to Exmouth and people ex- pleased that the problem area of domestic water perience problems in travelling between those supplies has largely been solved in the Cue, Mt. places. The onus probably rests with Airlines of Magnet, Sandstone, and Meekatharra areas. All Western Australia to retook at its position. Places those towns last summer experienced problems such as Carnarvon do not warrant a bus service; with water quality, quantity, and availability. In in fact, one could walk into the town. Geraldton is its ongoing programme, the Public Works Depart- perhaps an area which should be serviced by taxis ment proposes to install automatic chlorinators on a regular basis, as it is now. Learmonth has no and to upgrade the system, and it is to be com- taxis. The distance between Wyndham and mended for that. Kununurra is too great for people to take taxis. Kununurra. is serviced by Airlines of Western In conclusion. I call upon members of Parlia- Australia, and it has no need for buses . Perhaps ment to put aside their political biases this week- the decision of Airlines of Western Australia was end because the first test match in the Australia somewhat hasty. The ball is in its court to relook versus England series is to take place. Test at the situation. matches at the Western Australian Cricket As- sociation or WACA ground are under The Hon. Peter Dowding: It is in the Govern- threat-and 1 am not even thinking about anti- ment's court really. smoking advertising; I am speaking about the The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: It is not the large number of people who attend these matches. Government's responsibility at all. Airlines of It is our responsibility as solid Western Aus- Western Australia operates its own buses. It is not tralians, as I sincerely hope we all are, to attend correct to say it is the Government's fault; the the match at the WACA and boost the numbers Government does not operate the buses. and so ensure that we give great support to the The Hon. Peter Dowding: No, but it licenees match that has become traditionally Western AWA. Australia's test. The test starts on Friday; The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: Yes, I understand Monday is a rest day, and then the match con- that, but I am suggesting the onus rests upon Air- tinues through to the following Wednesday, TXit lines of Western Australia to retook at the situ- goes that long. We should show a lead in this i,:- ation. gard. I know the Hon. Peter Dowding is probably not a cricket supporter, but I would even be happy The Hon. Peter Dowding: Sure, but there is a to go along with him to explain to him some of primary onus on the Government to organise the the finer points of cricket on a non-political stand- whole transport system. ing. I spoke to the people at the WACA today. The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: That is not the The Hon. Peter Dowding: I don't have time to view of this Government. I do not think the Government should tell private businesses what to go to the cricket. do. I know what the member is trying to get at, The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: I do not normally but I simply cannot agree with him because 1 be- have the time either, but I will make the time be- lieve the onus rests on Airlines of Western Aus- cause the people of Western Australia deserve to tralia. If continual problems arise from this have the test held here and we should show the measure which cannot be solved and Airlines of lead. I urge members if they are in Perth this Western Australia refuses to do something about weekend to squeeze a day out of their electorates them, perhaps the onus will rest upon the Govern- and attend the cricket. I am sure it will be ap- ment to look at the whole situation. It is an preciated. interesting point. I support the motion. The Hon. D. K. Dans: It would be crook if you THE HON. NEIL OLIVER (West) got to Learmonth with two suitcases and there [7.45 p.m.]: Continuing the traditions of previous were no buses. Governments, particularly Liberal-Country Party The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: During the ALP Governments, once again we have achieved a bal- State conference it was suggested that perhaps anced Budget. 4936 4936COUNCIL]

The Hon. Peter Dowding: That is terrific for The Hon. Peter Dowding: Are they wrong? the Chamberlain John Deere workers. They The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: It appears the would be pleased with that, wouldn't they? member wishes to make my speech. I would be The PRESIDENT: Order! interested to hear his comments at a later stage. The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: Give me a go. It is The Hon. Robert Hetherington: He would do a quite normal to get interjections from the Oppo- better job. sition. The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: If the Hon. Peter The Hon. Robert Hetheringion: That is true, Dowding wants to win the election and use that to and you will get some more if you are not careful. his political advantage, let him do so at an appro- The PRESIDENT: Order! priate time when he has the floor in the House. I The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: Members opposite do not believe the Government has brought for- have never achieved a balanced Budget and so ward the programme because of the possibility of they ind it easy to interject and criticise, and that an early election; I believe the Government has is a common attitude for them to take. For the done this in the sincere belief that it will overcome first time the works programme has been included some of the problems which arc confronting our in the Consolidated Revenue programme and it economy, such as the area of employment. totals $3.3 billion. This has possibly been If the member would like to interject again and overlooked by members. If we separate these two say it is contrary to the views of the Government, items we see the loans programme and the works let him do so. programme were in the vicinity of approximately The Hon. P. 0, Pendal: Perhaps he would like $600 million, but this year the programme will be us to cut back on Federal works and do fewer increased by $400 million and it will then pass the jobs. $I billion mark. That is good news; in fact, it is probably the greatest news this Parliament has The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: 1 believe the ever received in a Budget. I have not heard any Government should be commended for presenting member of the Opposition draw attention to this, a balanced Budget once again. This Government but I would not expect them to. It is quite a has continued the practice of the Court Govern- significant point. This could not come at a better ment. It is a credible policy for the Government to time, as the economy of Australia needs an inflow bring forward a balanced Budget. We, together of public funds into the capital works area. I com- with all the people in Australia, know the policies mend the'Government for taking this lead. It is of the Labor Party in this area. I believe a bal- needed and welcomed, and the private enterprise anced Budget is the correct way in which to run sector of our economy will pick up the challenge the affairs of this country. and respond. Several members interjected. The Hon. Peter Dowding: By doing what? The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: I do not believe that The Hon. P. G. Pendal: This is new. the members who are interjecting would under- The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: The member who is stand what it would mean to have a deficit interjecting cannot understand that the people Budget. will respond to money. He just does not under- The Hon. Garry Kelly: Which interjection - stand what it is all about. Mr Pendal's? The Hon. Peter Dowding: Tell us what they do. The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: I was referring to Mr Pendal is desperately trying to back you up. the interjection by the Hon. Robert Hetherington The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: He might under- who would not know what it would mean to have stand it personally, but he does not understand it a deficit Budget. If a State had a deficit Budget from his party's point of view. the people of the State would be called upon in later years to pay the consequences in order to The Hon. Peter Dowding: You tell us then. achieve a balanced Budget. That could be The PRESIDENT: Order! achieved only by increasing charges. If that is The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: The Government is what Mr Hetherington wants, let him state it; if to be commended on bringing forward this pro- the Labor Party wants the people of Western gramme in the early months of the financial Australia to pay more to Consolidated Revenue, it year- should state so clearly now. The Hon. Peter Dowding: Prior to the ejection! Several members interjected. The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: -which some The PRESIDENT: Order! I ask the honourable people might think is prior to the election. members who are interjecting to cease their [Wednesday, 10 November 1982] 434937 interjections because I will not tolerate their con- The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: I thought members tinuation. opposite may have brought some logic to this de- bate, but at the moment it has no logic at all. Point of Order The Hon. Peter Dowding: We agree. The Hon, PETER DOWDING: On a point of The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: Expenditure on order, Mr President, I object to the reference by education in the O'Connor Government's Budget the honourable member to a balanced Budget represents 23.5 per cent of the total Budget. when we all know it was a fiddled Budget. The Hon. P. G. Pendlal: It is the highest ever The PRESIDENT: The honourable member figure. knows that is not a point of order and I consider it The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: Could I put it an abuse of his position. I will take more appro- another way: A figure of $549.5 million has been priate action if he takes that step again. allocated to education in this year's Budget. There is not one interjection. Debate (on motion) Resumed The I-on. Robert Hetherington: We have made The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: It is very sad the our interject ions, but you do not note them. members of the Opposition wish to take this The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: When the Govern- course. It is a course which I feel is detrimental to ment allocates such a fantastic figure how can every person in Western Australia. anyone be critical of it? The Hon. Robert Hetherington: Just saying The Hon. Robert Hetherington: Quite easily that you are talking nonsense is not taking any and with no trouble at all. I will criticise the edu- course, it is pointing out a fact. cation policy in due course. The Hon. G. E. Masters: You are talking non- The PRESIDENT: Order! sense. The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: When the Labor The Hon. NEI L OLIVER: If we were to have a Party was in Government, expenditure on edu- deficit Budget the only people who would pay for cation represented 20.43 per cenit of the Budget. it would be the taxpayers of Western Australia. If Might I add that over the last six years I have a Government embarks on a policy of expenditure heard by way of interjections in this House criti- that is not covered in the Budget, the taxpayers cism of the Government's education policy. will pay for it. If members on the other side of the The Hon. Robert Hetherington: You will prob- House wish to say, "Right, we agree with this and ably hear it again. we believe the Budget of this State should be in deficit", that is up to them. The Hon. NEI.L OLIVER: At no time over the past six years has the Court Government or the The Hon. Robert Hetherington: I do not think O'Connor Government allocated to education less anyone said that. What we said was that you were than the percentage allocated by the Tonkin talking nonsense. Government. How can members opposite be criti- The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: I hope the Oppo- cal? We are not talking in dollars and cents but sition is never in government. about the percentage of the overall Budget allo- The Hon. Robert Hetherington: We could not cated to education. If anyone could be critical of do worse than this Government. it, it woud not be the Labor Party. The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: I refer to a subject The Hon. Robert Hetherington: No trouble at which may be closer to the hearts of the Oppo- all. sition members who are shadow Ministers, and The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: The Labor Party that is education. could not be critical of it. The Hon. Peter Dowding: Of course it would. The Hon. Robert Hetherington: Of course we The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: If they are-critical could. obviously they voiced their opinion in the Caucus The Hon. NElL OLIVER: When the Labor room in 1972-73; because the two items in this Party was in Government it did not perform as Budget that attract the greatest expenditure are well as this Government, so how can it he critical? health and education. The Hon. Peter Dowding: What is the point The Hon. Peter Dowding: What has this to do you are making? with it? Several members interjected. The Hon. Robert Hetherington: I am not a The Hon. D. K. Dans: Give me the point and I shadow Minister. will be right. 4938 4938[COUNCIL]

The Hon. P. H. Lockyer: Mr Dowding, have We have just heard from the Hon. Phil you made your speech on the Estimates of Rev- Lockyer; no doubt the children of his constituents enue and Expenditure? confront these problems as a matter of course. The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: Members of the Parents of children undertaking the TAE Opposition have no right to be critical of the certificate understand the facilities may not be current education programme because when they available within the area, and that the children were in Government they did not perform as well must live in hostels to complete their studies. as this Government. However, frequently people in my electorate are The Hon. Robert Hetherington: We performed unaware of the problems that can arise; they are as well as we possibly could, under the circum- unaware their families will be split up by their stances. children moving to a high school hostel to com- plete their TAE certificate studies. I am referring The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: How can members now to an electorate within close proximity to the opposite allocate more money when they are not Perth metropolitan area. Many of these facilities in a position- are available in the more remote regions but not The Hon. Robert H-etherington: This Govern- in some of the districts closer to the metropolitan ment got the full benefit of the Whitlamn Govern- area. I do not think any other member, apart men t. from the Hon. Gordon Masters, would be able to The Hon. P. G. Pendal: These are State funds put a similar argument. we are talking about, you galah. The Hon. Peter Dowding: We all know how The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: I am absolutely as- close you are to the metropolitan area. You rep- tounded at the sort of comments made by mem- resent a small number on the basis that you are in bers opposite. Why did they not perform when in a country electorate when actually you are part of Government? Why did they not do all these the metropolitan area. What is your complaint? things which, as an Opposition, they are critical of The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: If the Hon. Peter this Government for failing to do? Why did they Dowding would care to travel from Bolgart to not allocate to education as much funds as the Perth every day, let him do so. present Government? The Labor Party formed The Hon. A. A. Lewis: Probably, it would be the Government at that time and had control of easier for him than not going to his own elector- the purse stings; it could have done somethi ng. ate. but it did nothing. It is the easiest thing in the world to be critical, and members opposite are The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: I thank Mr Lewis critical 100 per cent of the time. Over the last 12 for his interjection. The Hon. Peter Dowding months or so, I have listened to a real "talk-fest" always has a good explanation for not visiting his from the Opposition on a whole range of ex- electorate; however, his electorate is serviced by traneous matters. I should like to make a few air, and he has ready access to his constituents. points of my own, and make some specific state- Although Mt. Newman is a remote place, he ments about my electorate. could reach there by aircraft quicker than I could Some people may think West Province has no drive to the Bolgart Shire Council offices. problems in the education area or that the Recently I did a quick calculation of the dis- students in that electorate ind no difficulty in fit- tances I travel in moving around my electorate. I ting into the educational system. However, the was startled to find that since I April, I have children of many of my constituents are obliged to spent over 60 hours each week in my vehicle. travel over 60 kilometres a day to and from Doubtless, many members would exceed even school, just as children in other country areas that. I place no significance on that figure; it is must travel out of the district to attend a primary part of life. I may travel from Gidgegannup to school, a district high school or an agricultural Beverley and back, and I may traverse all of that school. Therefore. I commend the Government For country in one day, because people expect it of its proposal to upgrade educational facilities their member. That is part of the problem of rep- within my electorate. resenting a semi-metropolitan, or semi-rural elec- Previously, each Sunday evening or Monday torate. morning students were required to travel by I wish to recount to the House some of the school bus to high school hostels. It may come as pleasing things I have seen occur in education a surprise to some that the children of the since I have been a member of Parliament. In Bullsbrook area studying for the TAE certificate 1977, the Kelmscott High School had the largest need to live at the hostel in Midland provided by enrolment of any high schol in the metropolitan the authorities. area; I understand it now exceeds 1 200 pupils. By [Wednesday, 10 November 19B2] 493993

1980-81, the school enrolment had reached about by the nature of the geographical situation, saturation point. The people of Roleystone were and also by the tremendous parental and com- concerned that their children were tavelling great munity involvement. Through their concern for distances to and from school; in some cases their children, the people of Roleystone are em- children were travelling 40 kilometres. a day, and barking on a completely new endeavour in edu- for people living on the fringe of the metropolitan cation that may develop throughout the State over area, that is quite a distance. Inconvenience also the next 20 or 30 years. was experienced in relation to sporting activities, 1 say with great pleasure, but without any com- bus time-tables, and the like. mendation for myself, that I am pleased consen- A public meeting was held at Roleystone, at- sus has been reached within a community to fol- tended by over 300 people, all of whom were low a course of action which is probably, econ- anxious to see the establishment of a high school omically, the right course of action, and which at Roleystone. has proved to be the right course of action for the The economics and the viability of a high children of Roleystone. That is a wonderful school in Roleystone were somewhat under chal- achievement. It is highly commendable for a com- lenge; but the growth in the population of young munity to reach such a consensus. children-probably what we would call the "baby Another area with which I wish to deal relates boom "-necessi:ta ted the construction of another to high schools and schools generally, and the fact primary school. If a new primary school had been that they have facilities which are readily built, within the next eight years-subject to the available to other members of the community. As amount of growth over those eight years-it may an ex-member of the Church lands College of Ad- have become redundant and not required by the vanced Education, I am well aware of the fact Education Department. that tennis courts may be made available to the It is interesting that the people of the local community; but in country areas, many fa- Roleystone community understood the problem cilities are not available. Therefore, it is com- facing the Government. There was a need for two mendable to learn that in this Budget we are ex- primary schools, one of which would be redundant tending to primary schools and high schools the and a waste of taxpayers' funds. Therefore, the ability to make available their facilities to the people put the proposition that the children in community at large. years 6 and 7 of primary school should be farmed off to another school which could become a dis- Strangely enough, this move already is in effect trict high school, rather than build another pri- in the area of Lesmurdie, which is almost in the mary school. metropolitan area. If an area has telephone coin- munications, members of the Opposition would The Education Department saw this as a chal- readily concede that it is part of the metropolitan lenge. I had the opportunity of guiding the de- partment and I said, "Why should we build two area. It is truly an achievement that, for the first new primary schools and then finish up with one time in this State-i know of no other place and that is redundant? Why should we take away no other circumstances in which this is planned or from the Kelmscott High School the great expan- anticipated-the library of a high school has been sion making it the largest high school in Western made available for use by the community. This is Australia? We could provide an interim, and ulti- the situation now at Lesmurdie. mately a new idea." This was taken up by the With the assistance of Margaret Ellis, the chief first meeting attended by some 300 people, and librarian, and with the co-operation of the Shire the proposal is now contained in this year's of Kalamunda, rather than tennis courts and Budget. playing fields being made available to the com- I do not know what terminology or nomencla- munity, we have now reached the situation where ture the Education Department has for the the community within which the high school is lo- Roleystane higher education facility; but it means cated is able to utilise the library facilities. I com- that instead of building another primary school mend this pilot scheme, if it may be called that, to we have now provided, in the Budget papers, a other members. It is a first -cab-off- the- rank situ- new facility which takes in the two higher grades ation in which people in the community have the from the primary sector, and then moves into a opportunity to use the library facilities of the high junior high school environment. school. To my knowledge, such a facility has This is breaking new ground in Western Aus- never been made available to any other com- tralia. In fact, it is probably breaking new ground munity in Western Australia. in the whole of Australia. It has been brought The Hon. D. K. Dans: Hear, hear! 4940 4940COUNCIL]

The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: There was oppo- those available in their local area. They may wish sition to the scheme. The opposition now is to involve themselves in theatre, or attend univer- somewhat faint, because the project has proved to sity or other higher education facilities. They be a very successful operation. should not be disadvantaged because of where Only a couple of months ago I had the oppor- they live. tunity to inspect that facility. I have seen a library These children do not have the advantages that in a high school-a school which will take children have who live in areas such as Attadale, students through to the TAE level-with only Fremantle. or Cottesloe, to name but a few. This 7 500 books, As of today, although the school still situation places great stress upon and causes dur- has not reached the level of providing TAE ess to the members of organisations within my certificates, the number of library books is 15 000. community who wish to provide alternatives for The Hon. D. K. Dans: You can read only one at these children. As a member of Parliament rep- a time. resenting that area I find the demands placed upon me to have this problem met are almost The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: I hope politics will insurmountable. be put aside and the Opposition will be in total agreement with me. Technical methods can be introduced so that children self-respond to what is put before them, The Hon. D. K. Davis: Yes. and achieve their specific aims and desires in re- The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: The achievement is gard to employment and other activities. The magnif icent. mothers, the fathers, and the children-the whole The Hon. D. K. Dans: We are in total agree- family-are faced with an unusual situation. I do ment with you. not believe any member of Parliament other than The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: A developing area my colleague representing West Province and me always suffers great pressures from every direc- appreciates the pressures placed upon the families tion. One pressure relates to people in my elector- of this area. ate who have come from the Perth metropolitan A magnificent organisation has been estab- area. They gain an advantage by being able to lished in Kalamunda to try to overcome these purchase lower priced land, and therefore obtain a problems. It is called "Someone Cares", and is a lower mortgage; however, the financial decision totally voluntary organisation. Certain members they took has proved ultimately to be to their dis- of the Opposition took the opportunity of going to advantage as a result of the higher interest rates Kalamunda to observe that organisation from a now charged. critical point of view. They wished to determine The Hon. Peter Dowding: Caused by the whether a similar organisation would work in Federal Government. other areas. The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: Higher interest The Hon. Fred McKenzie: Mr Hetherington rates certainly have caused serious problems to a and I were there on a day you were the guest of particular class of people. People living in lower honour. income areas of housing are generally able to ben- The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: I well recall that efit from the current Government programmes to the member was there. Hie was a member of the assist honme buyers-I would say they are more audience, and while I had the floor I gave due than adequately covered-but in middle income recognition to his presence because I was anxious areas of housing-the higher mortgage that the aims and objectives, and achievements of areas-the people are under great stress. The the organisation would influence activities in House must understand the stress placed upon other electorates. I trust that will be so. these people by the current economic environment "Someone Cares" is an incorporated organis- faced by Australia. ation. Of course, I do not hold the registration of It is easy for people to adopt a carte blanche at- that name, but it has created somewhat of a gold titude toward this situation, but I emphasise that rush situation with people wanting to involve the problem for these people is quite serious. themselves in similar organisations. I must add I will refer now to the problems faced by youth that that has not resulted from the activities of in my electorate, which is isolated from the Perth the previous interjector. transport system. In particular, it is isolated from The organisation has proved beyond contradic- the Perth railway system. This isolation poses in tion that people operating within their own en- my electorate an immense problem to the mothers vironment are able to do things for the people of and fathers of children reaching maturity who their community which the Government cannot wish to involve themselves in activities other than do. As I have said, the organisation is totally vol- [Wednesday, 10 November 1982] 494194 untary-no strings attached. At its last annual It involved not only the wine producers, general meeting a suggestion was made by a but also grape growers from Western Aus- reprographer that the organisation adopt the coat tralia. of arms of Kalarnunda. The meeting decided that Without taking into account the feasibility or it would not acccpt even that suggestion. The making an assessment of the situation, the Oppo- people of that organisation will not accept any tie sition has said unequivocally to the grape growers with or handout from any Government of the Swan Valley without thought to the other body-they will stand on their own two feet. Such taxpayers in WA, that immediately upon their an attitude is commendable and should be election to Government they will give $300 000 to adopted by others in our community. Mrs Kath the Swan Valley Wine Producers and Grape Cook as the head of that organisation should be Growers Association for the installation of a pot congratulated for the good work she does for it. still in the Swan Valley. There is no-one who The Hon. Fred McKenzie: They do receive would not commend any move to make the Swan some help from the Kalamunda shire, don't they? Valley Wine Producers and Grape Growers As- The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: They receive help in sociation a viable one, but I am aware of the the form of a room 8 ft. by 6 ft. problems associated with the growing of grapes The Hon. Robert Hetherington: About three and their crushing to make wine. metres by two. I am aware also that the industry has a The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: I thank the shire of tremendous export potential for Western Aus- Kalamunda for making that available to them. tralia, not only in dried fruits but also in wine. The Hon. Robert Hetherington: You are all The dried fruits are an acceptable export com- heart. They have a good president. modity. We have the Sunblest brand of fruit which is extremely acceptable to the consumer The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: They also receive and we have the Sunmost brand also. The help with the phone rental. Sunmost people have challenged the Swan Set- Two matters relating to road works concern tlers Co-operative Association Pty. Ltd. and said me. I draw attention to the upgrading of the Red that if it does not adopt the Suninost label they Hill road which connects with the Great Northern will inundate the State with Sunmost to the detri- Highway to Midland, Gidgegannup and Toodyay. ment of Sunblest. However, they were most un- This is an extremely dangerous road and I am dis- successful. The Suniblest product is on the shelves appointed that it was not included in the works alongside the Sunrnost product in other States of programme in the Budget. I would appreciate a Australia. comment from the Minister as to why it was not The wholesalers of dried fruits are aware of included. I am sure members who have interjected that fact; and if that is not private enterprise are concerned also because Welshpool Road runs working. I would like to be contradicted by mem- through their electorates and the upgrading of that road would be of advantage to them also. bers of this place. I would like to draw the attention of members However, the Labor Party is prepared to put at risk $300 000 to the state of the Swan Valley which is the major of the taxpayers' money by promis- producer of grapes, dried fruit, and wine in this ing that it will provide that money to the Swan Valley Wine Producers and Grape Growers As- State. I spoke about the Swan Valley when we de- bated the Liquor Act legislation last session. I sociation for the installation of a still. have high regard for the wine industry and the The Hon. P. G. Pendal: They are doing that all grape growers in Western Australia. around the State. If one wishes to promote wine, one must pro- The Hon. D. K. Dans: Putting in pot stills? mote the raw material as well because if that is The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: If the Labor Party not promoted also it would all be to no avail. I is prepared to sell everything, mortgage every- was concerned by a recent news release of the thing, just to reach the ultimate goal of Govern- Minister for industrial, Commercial and Regional ment, God help the people of Western Australia. Development of 30 October 1982. It stated in The Labor Party is prepared to sell out every part- other taxpayer in Western Australia for purely Expo Vin 1982 was held in Melbourne and electoral advantage. 10 Western Australian wine producers took Members opposite believe that the Swan Valley part. may hold that responsibility-although it is some- Further on it stated- what remote- 4942 4942COUNCILJ

The Hon. A. A. Lewis: You do not mean they The purpose of the amendment to section 3 is are using it for political advantage? to expand the definition of "waters" to include The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: It is a somewhat canals constructed adjacent to natural waterways. minor point. Members opposite believe the possi- This amendment is in line with the recommen- bility exists of taking the seat of Mundaring from dations for the development of canal estates, the Liberal Party. I assure them they are wasting which were adopted by the Government in August their time. 1981. At present two canals are constructed ad- The Hon. Robert Hetherington: I was door- jacent to the waterways of the Peel Inlet Manage- knocking there on Sunday;, it is very lovely. ment Authority, but its jurisdiction extends only as far as the entrance to the canal. This amend- The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: They are wasting ment to the definition will extend the jurisdiction their time. Only the Government has done what of the management authority to cover these the industry requires. That industry will prosper waters. under a Liberal-Country Party Government. The amendment to section 48 is to enable by- The H-on. D). K. Dans: I have done my part for laws to be made by management authorities pro- that industry, and so have a few other people I hibiting or regulating the use of water closets and know. other prescribed sanitary appliances. By-laws The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: Only a Liberal- made by an authority apply only within that auth- Country Party Government understands what are ority's management area. In this case the Govern- the requirements of this industry. Therefore, if ment has at some expense installed pump-out fa- anyone wishes to intervene or to make outlandish cilities at Barrack Street for the use of ferries and statements, as has the Leader of the Opposition, charter vessels usually moored there. At present they do so purely from the point of electoral ad- the operators of these vessels are not obliged to vantage. May he continue to do so, because the use these facilities. people of the Swan Valley do not accept what he Concern is felt that it is possible these vessels is saying. may dispose of sewage and sullage directly into The Hon. D. K. Dans: I will start drinking the river and such an offence would be most diffi- Hunter River wine if you like. cult to prove under the existing legislation. The Hon. NEIL OLIVER: The people of the It is proposed that by-laws will be prepared for Swan Valley know the manner in which the the Swan River Management Authority so that it Opposition operates. They come from a line of can control water closets and other sanitary ap- people who are used to a socialist environment pliances on ferries and charter boats so that these and who are used to what was called social wastes are discharged into the sewer by way of democracy. They are not prepared to take the the pump-out facilities installed at Barrack chance. I warn the Opposition that when it says Street. willy-nilly it will give those people 5300 000, those I commend the Bill to the House. promises are falling on barren ground. THE HON. FRED McKENZIE (East Metro- The Hon. D). K. Dans: That is not a very apt politan) [8.45 p.m.]: This is a good Bill and we do comment. not oppose it. It provides for amendments to two Debate adjourned, on motion by the Hon. sections of the Waterways Conservation Act. As R. J. 1, Williams. the Minister has explained, one is to provide for an extension of the jurisdiction to include canals WATERWAYS CONSERVATION constructed adjacent to natural waterways. That AMENDMENT BILL is necessary; some jurisdiction is needed over ca- the legislation provides for Receipt and First Reading nals. Currently, jurisdiction only as Car as the entrance. Bill received from the Assembly; and, on The other amendment, to section 48, provides motion by the Hon. G. E. Masters (Minister for for the disposal of sewage and sullage in a manner Labour and Industry), read a first time. so that it does not finish up in the Swan River. Second Reading We support the Bill. (Lower Central) THE HON. G. E. MASTERS (West-Minister THE HON. A. A. LEWIS for Labour and Industry) [8.44 p.m.]: 1 move- [8.47 p.m.]: l have only one question; it relates to the first part of the Bill where it refers to canals That the Bill be now read a second time. constructed adjacent to the present waterways. If The Bill seeks to amend sections 3 and 48(5) of canals are constructed further back, and further the Waterways Conservation Act, 1976. and further inland, they will not be adjacent to [Wednesday, 1O November 1982] 494344 the waterways as such, or as defined. What will Third Reading happen about them? Will we have an amendment THE HON. G. E. MASTERS (West-Minister every year? Have we covered this properly now in for Labour and Industry) [8.51 p.m.]: I move- dealing with only one or two canals instead of That the Bill be now read a third time. biting the whole cherry in one hit? THE HON. NEIL OLIVER (West) [8.52 The Hon. D. K. Bans: It will probably come in p.m.]: I would like to ask the Minister a question. another Bill then. Where-a canal is not adjacent to a waterway and THE HON. G. E. MASTERS (West-Minister in the ultimate planning- for Labour and Industry) [8.48 pm.]: My under- The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (the Hon. V. J. standing is that canal developments such as at Ferry): Order! This is the third reading, and the Peel-Harvey Inlet which have access to the main honourable member may not raise a new matter waterways and rivers will come under the man- at this stage. agement authorities. I cannot think of any canal Question put and passed. development which would not have access to the Bill read a third time and passed. main waterways. I do not see how it could work because there must be a supply of water and the JUSTICES AMENDMENT BILL (No. 2) development must be close to the major water- way. If Mr Lewis suggests a possibility exists of a Returned development such as he has outlined, I would be Sill returned from the Assembly without interested to know about it. Where a waterways amendment. management authority exists, such as the Peel- Harvey, Leschenault, or Swan River authority, STATE FOREST'S it needs to have control of the waterway which is Revocation of Dedication: Motion attached to the main waterway. These are man- made waterways, but nevertheless the main water Debate resumed from 9 November. supply flows through the canals and creates the THE HON. D. K. DANS (South Metro- water necessary for the development. politan-Leader of the Opposition) [8.53 p.m.]: The Hon. A. A. Lewis: I was thinking of the The Opposition agrees with this motion, and with situation in Adelaide where they are pumping the plans which were laid on the Table of the water up and it drains out into the lakes. House on 12 October. The matter was fully de- bated in another place, along with many other The Hon. 0. E. MASTERS: I understand from matters not included in the motion. I see no pur- the recommendations of the Government com- pose in debating extensively something with which mittee which studied canal developments it was we agree. made quite clear that where these developments The Hon. G. E. Masters: Thank you. take place very careful consideration must be Question put and passed, and a message ac- given to the drainage and sewerage problems, and strict guidelines need to be laid down. A whole list cordingly returned to the Assembly. or guidelines are laid down in the report which ELECTORAL AMENDMENT BILL (No. 2) say that where a canal development takes place certain things must be done, such as for sewerage Second Reading and drainage and the like. The waterways Debate resumed from 9 November. authorities that exist now are in control of the THE HON. FRED McKENZIE (East Metro- main waterways-Peel- Harvey, Leschenault, and politan) [8.54 p.m.]: As indicated by earlier the Swan. I understand the honourable member's speakers, we are not opposed to this measure. question; we do not have that example of a canal However, I would like to comment that the Minis- development in this State now, but I suppose it ter ought to be aware of the South Australian could occur in the future. electoral situation as referred to in the Daily Question put and passed. News. If the Chief Secretary is so keen to give people the opportunity not to vote, he ought to Bill read a second time. bring some balance to the situation by ensuring that people are given the opportunity to vote. Our In Committee, etc. present Electoral Act makes this very difficult, Bill passed through Committee without debate, and the truth of my statement is borne out when reported without amendment, and the report one compares the figures for WA with those of adopted. SA. South Australia, with a population of about 4944 4944COUNCIL)

3 000 more than the population of Western Aus- The Hon. P. G. Pendal: A very inexact way of tralia, has 850 000 people on the roll. We have comparing populations. I am surprised at someone 730 000 people on the roll-about 120 000 fewer of your intelligence doing that. than SA. Putting that into percentages, it means The Hon. FRED McKENZIE: The Hon. G. C. that 64 per cent of the SA population are on the MacKinnon tried to throw me, and I came up roll, while only 55 per cent of this State's popu- with those figures. Government members have lation are on the roll. been left flat. The Hon. Tom Knight: Maybe we have more The Hon. Robert Hetherington: He is always children here? flat. The Hon. FRED McKENZIE: That is quite The Hon. A. A. Lewis: I do not think that is possible. right. The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: Have you checked The Hon. FRED McKENZIE: The figures those figures, or have you just plucked them out from which I am quoting are those taken I8 of the newspaper? months ago. This Government is not endeavouring The Hon. FRED McKENZIE: I have not to enrol people so chat they can exercise their checked the figures. right to vote. The Government is very anxious to The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: You should not give people the right not to vote. really quote them as though they are fact. .The Hon. P. G. Pendal: It is a personal obli- The Hon. FRED McKENZIE: I took them to gation. be the current estimates. The H-in. FRED McKENZIE: The honourable The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: Last time you member knows how difficult it is to have people enrolled. The conservative parties have been in spoke about a newspaper you reckoned they were Government for quite a long time and it is a the friends of the Liberals. simple matter for Government members to have The Hon. FRED McKENZIE: We do not have justices of the peace appointed. It is much more recent figures. I will quote the latest figures which difficult for us to do so. I have been able to obtain from the Bureau of The Hon. P. H. Lockyer: Could I ask you a Statistics. question? The IHIn. G. C. MacKinnon: Certified by the The Hon. FRED McKENZIE: All the Govern- Australian Bureau of Statistics? ment needs to do is to introduce a system of joint The IHIn. FRED McKENZIE: Absolutely. State-Commonwealth rolls. This would overcome The Hon. Robert Hetherington: You do not the problem. want to take too much notice of the honourable The Hon. P. H. Lockyer: Have you ever had a member; he is just being difficult. justice of the peace refuse to witness an enrolment The Hon. A. A. Lewis: Never! card? The Hon. Robert Hetherington: It is hard to The Hon. FRED McKENZIE: No, I have not. believe, isn't it? The Hon. Robert Hetherington: But you have The Hon. FRED McKENZIE: These figures to find a justice; that is what he is saying. are not up to date. They are as at 30 June 1981, The Hon. FRED McKENZIE: I said it is more and it is common knowledge that WA's popu- difficult- lation is rising at a rate which is faster than that The Hion. P. HI. Lockyer: Fair enough. of any other State. It is now November 1982 so the difference in the populations of 3 000 as The Hon. FRED McKENZIE: -to encourage quoted in last night's Daily News would be fairly people to enrol. That is what we should be doing. accurate. The Hon. Robert Hetherington: Yes. The Hon. Neil Oliver: Could you quote the The Hon. P. H. Lockyer: How do you mean it authority? is difficult? The Hon. FRED McKENZIE: I have here the The Hon. FRED McKENZIE: 1 am aware that figures as at 30 June 1981. The population in WA the Act provides an enrolment card may be wit- was 1 273 420. The South Australian population nessed by a police officer, an electoral officer, or a at the same date was 1 284 843. That is a differ- justice of the peace. ence of I1000 about 16 or 17 months ago so I The Hion. P. H-. Lockyer: I would be very con- would not argue with the figures quoted in the cerned if I thought that justices of the peace were Daily News. refusing to witness enrolment cards. [Wednesday, 10 November 1982] 444945

The Hon. FRED McKENZIE: Nobody said In Comnmit tee, etc. they are doing that. Bill passed through Committee without debate, The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (the Hon. V. J. reported without amendment, and the report Ferry): Order! There are far too many adopted. interject ions. The Hon. Robert Hetherington: You want to Third Reading listen. Bill read a third time, on motion by the Hon. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Order! R. G. Pike (Chief Secretary), and transmitted to The Hon. FRED McKENZIE: We have the Assembly. 730 000 people on the roll, yet we have 87 parlia- CITY OF PERTH PARKING FACILITIES mentary representatives and we are soon to in- AMENDMENT BILL crease that to 91. The South Australian Parlia- ment has 47 members in the Legislative Assembly Second Reading and 22 in the Legislative Council. Debate resumed from 4 November. The Hon. P, G. Pendal: Why is that the THE HON. FRED McKENZIE (East Metro- yardstick? politan) [9.03 p.m.):. The Opposition supports this The Hon. FRED McKENZIE: This Govern- Bill. It relates to a legal opinion obtained by the ment inds it easy to have new members of Parlia- City of Perth as to the letting of parking facilities ment. but it should be borne in mind that its ac- to charitable organisations for the conduct of tions will cost the State $2 million and [ ask business when the parking lots are not required. members how many people would that employ? We do not have any argument with the Bill and The Government's only reason for having new we support it. members is that it needs them to keep up its I make a comment in the hope that the Minis- numbers in the country in order that it can com- ter will convey it to the Minister in the other mand control of this place and the other place. place: Since the Act was first written, it has been The Hon. 1. G. Pratt: Do your local authorities amended substantially and it would be easier to have a list orfjustices, of the peace? read if it were reprinted. The Hon. FRED McKENZIE: Some do and The Hon. G. E. Masters: I agree. some do not. The Hon. FRED McKENZIE: I know this is a The Hon. P. H. Lockyer: You should encourage very minor matter, but it is an appropriate time to them. refer to it, because it is time the Act was re- The Hon. FRED McKENZIE: The Attorney printed. General sent me a booklet listing the justices of The Hon. G. E. Masters: I accept that. the peace. However, that is not the point. We The Hon. FRED McKENZIE: I support the should be encouraging people to enrol; yet we ask Bill. them to get a justice of the peace, who is the most THE HON. R. J. L. WILLIAMS (Metro- accessible of the people listed, to witness their politan) [9.04 p.m.]: The City of Perth has taken signatures. Therefore, people have to make the remedial action by requesting this Bill be pres- extra effort to hunt around and get a justice of en ted to the House, because it found that techni- the peace in order that they may enrol. That is cally, in law, it could not grant a group in my quite unnecessary. electorate, the Floreat Lions, the chance to con- Several members interjected. tinue the excellent work it was doing by using car The Hon. FRED McKENZIE: We do not op- park facilities for other purposes. pose the Bill, but I felt it important to indicate I place on record the thanks of the Floreat that it is disgraceful that a justice of the peace, Lions and other charitable organisations which policeman, or electoral officer is required to wit- will now benefit from this provision and I express ness a person's signature before he may go on the that thanks to the Lord Mayor and councillors of roll, when that person may have been on the roll the City of Perth, for the rapid way in which they previously, but has since been struck off. We sup- responded to the public demand for such a facility port the Bill. to be afforded to charitable organisations. Question put and passed. Question put and passed. Bill read a second time. Bill read a second time. 4946 4946COUNCIL]

In Committee, etc. porate body to another. Is this the forerunner of Bill passed through Committee without debate, this sort of legislation?2 reported without amendment, and the report The other point I cannot quite comprehend is adopted. how we transfer crust property without affecting the unit trust holdings. Does it involve the fact Third Reading that within a trust, when a person transfers the units of a trust, he does not have to pay ad Bill read a third time, on motion by the I-on. valorem stamp duty on the transfer of those G. E. Masters (Minister for Labour and Indus- units? This may be the reason for the legislation, try), and passed. because with normal changes in transfers within a corporate body, the transfer of the shares is as- STAMP AMENDMENT BILL (No. 5) sessed for stamp duty. Does this mean within a Second Reading trust the transfer of units within that trust does Debate resumed from 2 November. not accrue stamp duty? THE HON. D. K. DANS (South Metropoli- THE HON. I. G. MEDCALF (Metropolitan- Leader of the House) [9.12 p.mn.]: This Bill is de- tan-Leader of the Opposition) 19.07 p.m.J: The signed to encourage the secondary mortgage mar- Opposition supports this Bill which seeks to ket, and the method by which that is achieved is introduce the stamp duty amendments referred to to reduce the stamp duty on transfers of mort- by the Treasurer in his Budget speech. 1 must gages. Instead of paying ad valorem stamp duty confess that when I saw the reference to this in on the transfer of a mortgage-which means in the Budget, I 'thought it was rather strange as we accordance with the value of the consideration-a had just dealt with a Stamp Amendment Bill. flat rate of $10 will be paid. So this reduces the The amendments seek to develop a secondary stamp duty; this is the basic premise of the Bill. market for mortgages and the Opposition has The transfer from one company to another would been pushing this proposition for at least four or occasion stamp duty; a transfer of any property at five years. all would do so, whether it be a house, land, This Bill has been debated fully in another shares, or units in a unit trust, because any other property is covered, whether it be land or any place and I do not intend to labour the point. other property, it all goes at a certain rate; We support the Bill. whereas marketable securities or shares go at a THE HON. NEIL OLIVER (West) (9.09 different rate. But the units in the trust would go pisn.]:. The only aspect of this Bill which concerns at the general property rate, and are definitely me is the transfer of property. The Bill is directed covered. at people who have been trying to evade the pay- Question put and passed. ment of stamp duty on the transfer of property in Bill read a second time. discretionary trusts. I am somewhat confused about it and I would appreciate it if the Minister In Committee, etc, in charge of the Bill could explain the differen- tiation between a trust and a corporate body and Bill passed through Committee without debate, the manner in which the transfer of property reported without amendment, and the report would not attract stamp duty. adopted. From reading the Minister's second reading Third Reading speech I understand that, in a discretionary trust Bill read a third time, on motion by the Hon. or a trust Company, property may be transferred within the trust, the directors of the trust may be I. 0. Medcalf (Leader of the House), and passed. changed, and the unit holders of the trust may be EDUCATION AMENDMENT BILL changed; therefore, stamp duty is not accrued. To me that is rather an extreme case, because I am Second Reading not aware of how this can be done. Debate resumed from 4 November. I would appreciate the Attorney's explaining to THE HION. N. F. MOORE (Lower North) me how properties can be transferred without [9.15 p.m.]: I would like to make a brief contri- accruing ad valoremn duty, not necessarily with bution to the debate on this Bill which will allow discretional trusts or in a trust situation, but in schools to expel students. In the five years I have the normal corporate body situation, where share- been in this House, this is the Most sensible Bill holders have transferred properties from one cor- dealing with education matters I have seen [Wednesday, 10 November l9821 494794 introduced. The support given to the Minister As a former deputy principal and principal of after the introduction of this legislation is an indi- district high school, I had the overall responsi- cation of the need for it. Overwhelming support bility for discipline in a school situation, particu- has come from parents and teachers particularly, larly with boy students. In chat position one be- and from other citizens in the community. I am comes very aware of the effects these disruptive not sure of the support coming from students, but students have on the entire school environment. generally they are fairly quiet on these matters. In the Hon. Robert Hetherington's address on Many school students of course would be very this matter he spoke about his young friend who is pleased that this legislation has been introduced, a 5ft. 2in. female teacher who wears sloppy because in some cases they will now be able to get clothes to school and allows her class to call her down to doing some serious work without being by her first name. He told us that this young lady interrupted and disturbed by students who, hope- experiences no disciplinary problems even though fully under this legislation, will now be expelled. she is teaching a class in a senior high school in Having read some of the previous debate on the city. this legislation I am a little concerned to find The Hon. Neil Oliver: That may be so. some members are of the opinion that now we The Hon. N. F. MOORE: That may be the have the situation developing in our schools which case for that young lady, but I can recall the has caused this legislation to be introduced. names of several students whom I taught who The Hon. Robert Hetherington: That is what would quite happily call that lady by her first the Minister said. name as well as by a few other adjectives gener- The Hon. N. F. MOORE: That may be his pos- ally of four letters, and she would find it very dif- ition, too. It is my view that the behaviour of ficult, if not impossible, to control some of those students in our schools these days is not any bet- students. ter or any worse than it has been for generations. Some students do not respond to the measures This Bill is before us as a result of the present used to modify the behaviour of students. In a Minister for Education's intestinal fortitude to school environment where many people are in a introduce the measure. I suggest other Ministers confined area it is necessary to have a certain de- have thought about doing so but have not been gree of conformity and it is necessary for the suc- prepared to take this step. Now we have a Minis- cessful operation of the school for students to con- ter who is prepared to admit publicly that some form to the school's policy and standards of be- students in our schools are incorrigible. haviour. If the students are not prepared to do this, what can the school do? Incorrigible students have always been in our education system. None of the counselling, guid- We can go to a guidance officer. Too few guid- ance, or other things we talk about as being be- ance officers are in schools; but the activities of haviour modification tools would make any differ- guidance officers are not as successful as some ence to the behaviour of some students. Regret- would imagine them to be. Teachers have been tably some students, and not just high school taught what we call positive behavioural modifi- students but also primary school students, essen- cation tools. These psychological tools can be used tially are criminals. In our society we deal with by teachers in schools to modify students' behav- criminals by removing them from the community. iour. if that does not work they can chastise the In a sense expulsion from school is a similar type children, detain them after school, or even go as of punishment in that it removes these incorrigible far as having them caned by the principal or young criminals from the school environment and deputy principal. if none of these methods works prevents them from having an adverse effect on they can resort to suspension. Students are sus- their peers, which is presently the case. pended usually for a week. In most cases students who are suspended regard the suspension as being The Hon. Neil Oliver: There are no Opposition a great holiday and when they return to school members in the Chamber. they are treated as heroes because they had a The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: Mr Moore, did week off and the rest of the school did not. you notice Mr Frank Usher's comments? Because none of these things works upon some The PRESIDENT: Order! students, we have to do something else. When l The Hon. N. F. MOORE: No, I did not; but I was teaching in Laverton a 6 ft. 2 in., 13 stone have often read his comments, which seem to go male student attacked a young female teacher. I on at great length. In view of the fact that no Op- had to call the police on that occasion and the position members are present, I will try to finish student was charged with assault. That is an ex- my speech as quickly as I can. treme set of circumstances. That student was the 4948 4948[COUNCIL] type or student who should be expelled from easier for the students who wish to learn and to school and not be allowed to re-enter it because become part of the environment in the school. that form of' aggressive behaviour is just not on. With those remarks, I support the legislation. The Bill provides for expulsion under very strict THE HON. R. J. L. WILLIAMS (Metro- conditions which I think are necessary and will politan) [9.26 p.mn.J: I did not intend to enter this of this weapon. prevent indiscriminate use debate until last Thursday when I heard some of The Hon. Mr Hetherington was concerned the greatest drivel I have ever heard spoken by about what would happen to the students once two members of this House, one from the Oppo- they were expelled. sition side and one from this side. I am loyal to The Hon. Robert Hetherington: I still am. my colleagues, particularly ex-colleagues, but I The Hon. N. F. MOORE: He was worried take issue with the H-In. Peter Wells and his rash statements about the school guidance staff in this about their educational opportunities. State, of which I anm an ex-member. I say that The I-In. P. G. Pendal: They could become proudly because they were a darned good bunch members of Parliament! to work with and they were virtually the unsung The Hon. N. F. MOORE: I am not worried salt of the education system at secondary level. about their educational opportunities whatsoever The Hon. Robert Hetherington: Some are not. because any student who is so bad that he must be The Hon. R. J. L. WILLIAMS: Teachers come expelled from school is not the slightest bit into this category. interested in education and probably never will be. The Hon. Robert Hetherington: Of course they do. That is right. The Hon. Robert Hetherington: That is what I was saying, you great twit. The Hon. R. J. L. WILLIAMS: Mr Hetherington knows that. The Hon. N. F. MOORE: I am simply saying that while the Hon. Mr Hetherington expresses The Hon. Robert Hetherington: I know that. some concern for their educational future. I do The Hon. R. J. L. WILLIAMS: The Hon. not, because these students have no inten-st in Norman Moore has said that the Minister has education at all. had the intestinal fortitude to introduce this Bill. If the climate had been right at the time, the The Hon. Robert Hetherington: I will express Hon. Graham MacKinnon, an ex-Minister for some other concerns later. Education, would have introduced this Bill be- The FHon. N. F. MOORE: I support thil legis- cause it has been a recommendation of the de- lation simply because it supports the teachers in partment for many years. our schools. At long last they have an ulti- The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: It would have mate-for want of a better word-"weapon" with come down upon this Government like a tonne of which to deal with very disruptive and incorrigible bricks. students whom we fortunately find only occasion- ally in Western Australian schools, whose only The Hon. R. J1. L. WILLIAMS: Does the aim in life is to disrupt the school and cause honourable member mean because they do not know what they are talking about? chaos. The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: Now they support The Hon. Robert Hetherington: Why do you it. think they got like that, or don't you care? The Hon. R. J. L. WILLIAMS: The responsi- The Hon. N. F. MOORE: There are many bility for depriving the child or student of his edu- reasons for that. cation is sheeted home in this Bill to the top The Hon. Robert Hetherington: Yes, I know. officer, the Minister. He has the responsibility, The Hon. N. F. MOORE: The school environ- and in taking that responsibility much more is ment where a teacher has 30 students to look involved in the way that student is handled be- after is not the appropriate place to sort out one cause under the power vested in the Minister, he child's terrible emotional and psychological prob- has to stand in this Parliament and, if necessary. lems which cause him to become almost a crimi- give reasons for a student's having to leave. nal. The reason that this legislation is necessary is I have a lot of time for the Hon. Peter Wells. simply the positive effect it will have upon the rest He is reputed to be one of the hardest working of the children in a school once the disruptive and back-bench members of this House, and I will not incorrigible student has been removed. The school quarrel with that. He is credited with doing ad- environment will be much better and it will be equate research before he gets on his feet to [Wednesday, 10 November 1982]194 4949 speak. Just on one occasion he has got for himself Bachelor of Science (Psychology) degree from the the accolade of being a hard worker. I will not University of WA, a Graduate Diploma in Psy- take that from him as I admire men who do re- chology from WAIT and a Diploma of Education search, but he must in the future remember that from Murdoch University. if he intends to speak on an emotional subject he The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: I suggest she must carry out his research in a more responsible sounds like a good candidate for the Labor Party. manner. It could be that the Hon. Peter Wells was called upon to speak at short notice, because The IHon. R. J. L. WILLIAMS: The ages of it was so unlike him to make some of the state- both male and female staff range from 35 years ments he made. For instance, on page 4740 of upwards and at present the age of the senior Hansard the member said this- female is 55 years. She obviously has had a fam- ily, and went back to work after she had raised The Final point I make relates to guidance her family. officers. We take school children into our teaching colleges, and then employ them in The Hon. Robert Hetheringion: Why is it obvi- schools-from school, to school, to school. ou s? They have virtually no outside experience be- The Hon. R. J. L. WILLIAMS: I happen to fore being appointed to their posts in schools. know her. 1 wonder whether the department has ex- The Hon. Robert Hetherington: It is not obvi- plored fully the possibility of using consul- ous from anything you have said. tants with practical experience in the field of child behaviour. The Hon. R. 3. L. WILLIAMS: She earned a diploma in teaching from Wattle Park in 1958, a What a fatuous statement to make without know- B.A. in Adelaide in 1964, and a Master's Degree ing the facts! It is not fair. I want Mr Catterill to in Psychology from the University of WA in know about this, and I will send him my remarks. 19 68, a nd she was employed in 198 1. That would I asked Mr Catterill and his staff to provide me suggest that the gap of 20 years would have with certain facts and figures which I knew allowed her to have her family and then go back existed because that accusation has been levelled into the work force. Despite the criticism of the at the guidance branch before. Mr Catterill re- branch, it does exist and it works well. plied on 8 November and sent to me a document from which I will later quote briefly. If members Mr Wells hit on a generic term which we al want to look at it they may do so because it is not know but do not explore very often, and that is a private document. It was addressed to me. In "hyperactive". If a child goes past primary school 1978 an ex-colleague of mine, a senior guidance and has to be sorted out at high school level be- officer, Jim Ryall, with the assistance of a Mr cause he is hyperactive, something is extremely Des Thornton, conducted a survey of all guidance wrong with his parents. Pupils with medically officers to find out what outside experience they orientated problems in our system are referred to had. Perhaps many members here would say that outside consultants, whom Mr Wells called doc- from school to college and back to school is not tors, who are available privately to the parents; or too bad at the age of 31 when one has two chil- the children can be referred to the Mental Health dren and one has some idea of what education is Services or to the school medical service. Half the about. problems of a child are known before he attends They sent a questionnaire to 172 members of these centres. In relation to the primary school the staff. Replies were received from 119 staff aged children who art severely or emotionally dis- members, which represents 70 per cent. Of the re- turbed or hyperactive the guidance branch itself turned forms 49 per cent of the guidance officers says, and I quote- had in excess of two years' work experience out- . ., e mploys a Sen ior Ed uca tion Officer (wi thI side the department, 68 per cent had in excess of a Doctorate, an M.Sc. and an M.Ed.) in 12 months' work experience outside the depart- charge of 4 centres set up specifically for the ment, and 82 per cent had in excess of six months' treatment of these children's problems. Each work experience outside the department. Only Centre is staffed by a Guidance Officer who five per cent did not have in excess of one month's is a Registered Psychologist, or eligible to be work experience outside the department. That registered as a psychologist, 2 teachers and 2 survey was taken four years ago. teacher aides. They have a maximum enrol- In 1981-82 the staff was increased by 18. 1 ask ment of 16 children at a time in each Centre, the House to judge the qualifications and experi- with the children being phased back into nor- ence of some of these people. A female staff mem- mal school as they can cope with the situ- ber in 1981 was 36 years of age and she had a ation. It is assumed that this early 4950 4950COUNCIL]

intervention will reduce the requirement for Robert Hetherington's suggestion that the teacher later involvement. walk into the classroom and say, "Call me by my With reference to students of secondary school Christian name." That may be his metier. I ap- age the following procedure is adopted- preciate that the honourable member is an honest man and that he had A Clinical Psychologist from the Branch difficulty in teaching at the provides a clinical consultancy service for secondary level, and when he was transferred to guidance officers who service secondary the tertiary level he was happy with that situation. schools and he carries a small case load as The range of recommendations a guidance officer well. He also acts as the Education Depart- can suggest to a teacher is extraordinary. ment's liaison Officer with the Mental Health Mr Hetherington asked, "What do we do about Services Warwick Clinic class for secondary the cause?" I do not know. What do we do about aged children, who are integrated into the a child at the age of 14 years whose mother is Warwick High School when sufficiently teaching her to be a prostitute in beautiful West- stable to adjust to normal secondary school ern Australia? What do we do about cases like placement. that? That child came from Mr President's elec- I hope torate and he knows of the case of which I am I have put the record straight about my ex- colleagues in the guidance branch. It is easy for speaking. It is unfortunate that this child was people to sit and skite because half the population made to act like a woman after school. It was the do not know what services the Education Depart- teacher who revealed the problem because he no- ment provides. ticed her sleeping in class and found out what had been happening to her. The child was observed, The Hon. Robert Hetherington suggested there and then the whole sordid story came out: Every should be greater liaison. Of course greater liaison time the Japanese boats came in, by order of her should exist between the officers. Mr MacKinnon mother, this 14-year-old girl had to go down to went back almost to halcyon days when he spoke Fremantle. of a teacher who thrashed him and did a tremendous job on him and many other students. That is why I say there are people within the I am sure Mr MacKinnon would say he remem- school system who do neither the system nor bers that teacher with affection. themselves any good. After constant review of the situation, finally we have decided to give the ulti- The Hon. Robert Hetherington: He did say mate authority to the Minister to say, "Yes, I that. agree; they should be expelled." That is the The Hon. ft. J. L. WILLIAMS: The ratbags highest authority to which one can go in the Edu- that come up for expulsion, as the Hon. Norman cation Department, because that man reports to Moore said, are carefully looked at in more than this Parliament. one sense. If the problem is physical violence, the I support the Bill. student is expelled if there is an element of bru- tish thuggery. THE HON. W. M. PIESSE (Lower Central) [9.41 p.m.]: I wholeheartedly support the legis- My first teaching instruction when I went to a lation, albeit I see it as one of the saddest Bills blackboard jungle school in the United Kingdom ever brought before this place. Perhaps it is a sign was, "Hit them first and you may survive." That of our affluence that we have come to this. We was right for them, by and large. have come to regard education not as a privilege, No matter what the guidance officers do, there but as a right. However, when we look at the situ- is no doubt that some people with grave mental ation in other countries, we see people elsewhere disturbances who will not respond to treatment recognise that the education of their children is a will cause disturbances in a class. The Hon. privilege. The sooner parents and students return Norman Moore said that the Hon. Robert to a recognition that it is a privilege, the easier Hetherington mentioned a lady of 5 ft. 2 in. in our education system will run. height. She was in charge of children in an elec- One of the first lessons our students must learn tive teaching class. if they are to live in this country is to respect the The Hon. Robert Hetherington: Alternative rights of others. However, these disruptive class. students never learn that lesson. Indeed, I believe The Hon. R. J. L. WILLIAMS: There are the underlying cause of their disruptive behaviour many teachers who do a tremendous job with chil- is that they have never learnt to respect the rights dren and I do not recommend that any teacher of others, particularly the rights of those students should read Hansard to follow the dictum pro- who want to learn and who recognise what a posed here; nor do I suggest they follow the Hon. privilege education is. [Wednesday, 10 November 1982]195 4951

Corporal punishment in dealing with these We must return to a recognition of the great cases has been proved to be somewhat of a failure. privilege we have in education. Our parents, we, These disruptive students will not be denied an and our children have enjoyed tremendous assist- education; correspondence education will be ance in the provision of a good education, and we available to them. However, I very much doubt cannot afford to allow that privilege to be de- whether many will bother to take up correspon- stroyed by disruptive students. dence lessons. It may well be that they will rattle THE HON. TOM KNIGHT (South) [9.46 around in the world for a few years until they p.m.]: I wish to have recorded my support for ibis begin to realise just what they have thrown away. Bill and, at the same time, to further project some I have high hopes that many of these young of the views put forward by the Hon. Norman people will come to recognise what they have Moore. Over the last few weeks, a great deal of thrown away, mend their ways, and take up some discussion has taken place on this Bill; the views worth-while occupation; of course, I realise only of several people have come forth, and 1 felt those some will be in this category. views should be expressed in this House. It is some years now since I visited South As you would be aware, Mr President, I edu- Africa. At that time, rioting was occurring on the cated seven children. I well remember the com- campuses at some American universities. I was in ments they used to make about some of the activi- a party of tourists being shown around the univer- ties which went on, particularly at high school. In sity at Durban, and I asked, "Do you in South fact, I recall saying to the then principal of the Africa have any problems with rioting students, high school that if he knew of something un- and the disruption of the system?" They replied toward going on, where one of my children bad that they had recently experienced disruption, and stepped out of line, I wanted him to administer the authorities immediately closed the university. punishment to chat child because I was of the When the students came to the authorities and view that sort of behaviour should not be perm it- said that they wanted the university to be opened ted. again, the authorities replied that they had every right to close the university because the taxpayers As the Hon. Norman Moore said, this legis- were paying for the education of those young lation provides a much needed provision in the people. The students were told that if when they education field. Today, we see a lack of respect had completed their education they wanted to for discipline and authority which, in the long start rioting, it was up to them because they run, also shows a lack of respect for law and would be fending for themselves. The authorities order. I believe this provision will make young told the students that the only way the university people realise they cannot upset the system. would be reopened was if the students agreed that Young people cannot do as they wish and run the the people responsible for the upheaval would be world as they want it to be run;, they cannot expelled immediately, while the remainder re- simply go out and "do their own thing". turned to study in a sensible way. Apparently, the I believe this lack of respect has evolved from a students agreed to those terms and they have had situation where, today, both parents usually work, no further trouble. When the child comes home from school neither That was a very brave thing for a Government his mother nor his father is there to greet him. As to do. Had rioting occurred in Western Australia a result, he goes off down the street to play, and at that time, I doubt whether our Government sometimes gets into trouble. Because the parents would have made a simitar decision. People must have not paid sufficient attention to the child, and recognise a problem for what it really is before have not administered discipline, authority, and having the courage to impose the necessary rules punishment, they do not allow the school teacher and regulations in order to avert further catas- to administer discipline. This situation develops trophe. over the years. Because the parents feel guilty that they have not paid sufficient attention to On the matter of education being a privilege, and because as they both work they while in South Africa it was evident that the their child, can afford it, the child is lavished with gifts at people were hungry for the education of their chil- dren; this applied to both Dutch-descended South Christmas and on birthdays. Africans and black South Africans. Indeed, if, Finally, the child leaves home having experi- say, a company wished to hire skilled labour, it enced discipline neither in the home nor in the was sure of obtaining a more than adequate school. Because of the gifts which have been lav- supply of trained adults simply by guaranteeing ished upon him by his parents, he believes the education for their children. In other words, the world owes him a living. He goes out into the people put education in front of everything else. world with no respect for law and order. 4952 4952[COUNCIL]

This sort of provision has been required for a interjection when Mr Wells was speaking, l spoke long time. In my day, discipline was effected at about some psychologists who had never left school and I believe we grew up to be better citi- school, who were educated on rats and who are zens as a result. behaviourists. Perhaps the Hon. John Williams As I mentioned, over the last few weeks a did not hear what I said. I said that we had to be number of groups with which I am involved have careful of people who have just left school. We discussed the introduction of this legislation. have to be careful about this in teaching. It is my I put that forward because I support the Minis- view that all teachers should be encouraged to ter take a year off from school at some time, because and the Government in what they are doing. This move will be beneficial to the future of many they would be better for it in their handling of the young people, and possibly it will make it easier children. However, that is not what we are argu- for our' policemen, to administer and enforce the ing about tonight. laws that we lay down in this Parliament. The The CHAIRMAN: It is not in accordance with young people will respect them, because they will the clause before the Chair, either. have experienced discipline in some form or other. The Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: The I support the Bill fully. It is a move in the right point I am trying to make is that, for a number of direction. reasons, sometimes the fault may not be with the THE HON. R. G. PIKE (North Metropoli- child. Often the fault is not with the child; there- tan-Chief Secretary) [9.51 p.m.]: I thank the fore I note with gratitude that the process to be many members who have spoken on this Bill. I gone through before expulsion is a very careful admit that in every instance the members have and considered one. had More experience in this field than I have. I I am worried that the Minister in another place mention the excellent contribution made by the said that between 50 and 100 children could be Hon. Graham MacKinnon as an ex-Minister. expelled, even after they have gone through this I undertake to refer to the Minister the com- process. However, I note that this is a good pro- ments that have been made. They will be valuable vision in the Bill. to him when he is drafting the regulations which I will now comment on subsection (5) of pro- are necessary under the Bill, which I commend to posed new section 20G. In his second reading the House. speech, the Chief Secretary said, "'Well, we don't Question put and passed. have to worry about them, because we now have Bill read a second time. correspondence education." That suggested that we would not be washing our hands of students In Committeec who are expelled. If I might cite a statement made by the Minister elsewhere, we should not be The Chairman of Committees (the Hon. V. 3J like Pontius Pilate; the Minister agreed with this Ferry) in the Chair; the Hon. R. G. Pike (Chief when discussing the Bill with other people. We Secretary) in charge of the Bill. cannot wash our hands of students who are ex- Clauses I and 2 put and passed. pelled, because if we do they are not necessarily Clause 3: Section 20G inserted- likely to rattle around for a while, and come back The Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: In to school. They are likely to finish in gaol, if discussing clause 3, we are really discussing the something is not done about them. Bill. I will deal with it one piece at a time, if the I was trying to make the point that the Hon. Chief Secretary is happy about that. Win Piesse made, that these young people are not I am heartened that a fairly rigorous process is interested in education. Of course they are not, to be followed before anybody is expelled. I will and therefore the correspondence school would not make the kind of statements about people who not be useful at this stage. may be expelled from schools which have been I wonder if this clause has been put in the Bill made by some schools which have been made by so it can be seen that the Minister is thinking that some people in this Chamber-statements about he Might do something, or whether he has any thugs, and various other things-as if the people idea of what he might do. In other words, what involved were less than human. They are human kind of directions will the Minister see fit to beings who, for various reasons, have fallen by the make? I hope that this matter has been given wayside. We have to be very careful about this. some thought. I would be very surprised if it has By implication, the Hon. John Williams was not. If it has not been given any thought, it is high castigating me at one stage because, by time that thought was given to it. [Wednesday, 10 November 1982] 454953

What kind of direction will the Minister give to made in relation to a child may be varied or re- a person who has been expelled from school-a voked by the Minister by further order. In other 13-year-old or a 14-year-old who has been ex- words, if it is found upon investigation that a dif- pelled? What would the Minister direct him to ferent school might enable a child to achieve bet- do? If the Minister gave him a direction that he ter, he can be sent to that school. The child may was to stay at home and do his studies, that would have a personality problem, or suffer from a prob- be fatuous to the extreme. The Chief Secretary lem in the home, and his being moved from that and the Minister elsewhere know that; and I think atmosphere may be in his best interests. All these everybody knows that, because the very fact that options are open. I am pleased that a certain con- the children have been expelled means that they dition will not apply forever and a day, and that will not be very interested in studying. the Minister will have an opportunity to deter- 1wish I could agree with the IHon. Tom Knight mine what can be done for a child in this situ- ation. The option is available to the Minister that the fault lies with the wealthy families who to decide in his wisdom, and on the advice given to have two people working; but in my electorate him, what other directions should be given. many children come from families in which no- body is working, or there is a single parent who is Possibly the Minister can tell me whether not working. There are other reasons for people certain circumstances apply. I have said before feeling that they do not belong in society. It is not that a child removed from the school scene for that they have been given too many gifts and too perhaps a year or two may stabilise sufficiently to much love and affection, or that they have been know what he is aiming at in life. Often one of the neglected. problems children experience today is that they are sent to school merely to learn something, and I wonder if the Hon. Norman Moore is right do not have a particular goal in sight. It often when he says that, in fact, we have always had the happens that children during adolescence consoli- same proportion of people to whom the Minister date their characters and determine what they should give directions. 1 wonder if the number has want to be in life;, they recognise that they want to been growing since we have had increasing unem- become a particular type of person, and that they ployment. I wonder if children at school are be- must Finish a particular part of their education. coming more disruptive because their fathers are We find many students who go through this pro- out of work, or because they can see no hope for cess. I am very pleased that an option will be themselves. available. This is a highly complex problem. Even if we The Hon. N. F. MOORE: In my judgment far were to use the language that somec members have too many of the resources of the education system used about the people who might be expelled-I for far too long have been utilised to try to do am reminded of when the Hon. Phillip Pendal something with disruptive and unruly children in called a union secretary "vermin"- our schools. I am a little worried that the Minister The Hon. P. H. Lockyer: He was called a might try to set up some sort of additional appar- monkey, first. Tit fot tat! atus to look after expelled children, an apparatus The Hon. P. G. Pendal: He sat up there and which will divert more and more of the resources acted- of the Education Department from the average child, the child prepared to put his best into ob- The CHAIRMAN: Order! The question is that taining an education. My opinion is that perhaps clause 3 stand as printed. we ought to wash our hands of this move. The Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: I am The Hon. R. G. PIKE; At the outset I recog- directing myself to proposed new subsection (5) nise the absolute dichotomy of the arguments put which is contained in that clause. I am saying it is by the Hon. Bob Hetherington and the Hon. important that the Minister give the right kind of Norman Moore. I will not try to steer a middle directions. course, but I do say in answer to the points made I ask the Minister in this House whether he is by the Hon. Bob H-etherington in regard to pro- in a position to say-I will forgive him if he is posed subsection (5) that I am advised correspon- not-what kinds of instructions have been con- dence education does not necessarily isolate a sidered by the department as potentially proper student from society, and the alternative to this for a Minister to give. exclusion is as has already been stated-an in- The Hon. W. M. PIESSE: I make it known credible disruption to a school's learning pro- how pleased I am that these amendments will be gramme. made to the Act. In particular I refer to proposed I am likewise advised that the emphasis re- new section 20G(6) which says that an order quired in pastoral care will be catered for. I rec- 4954 4954[COUNCIL] ognise the compassionate view the Hon. Bob students, and do not give them the right Hetherington put in this matter, and has put con- instructions or treat them properly, they may end sistently during the years he has been in this up criminals. Chamber, It is envisaged in regard to pastoral I do not necessarily think the Education De- care that the role of the local panel will be to try partment should take over this responsibility; it to consider the causes of disruptive behaviour, and might be more proper for the Minister to instruct so determine appropriate recommendations to de- expelled students to go to the Department for scend to the Minister through the Director Gen- Community Welfare, or the whole range of bodies eral of Education. One must bear in mind it is en- which the Minister might be able to instruct or visaged the assistance of outside agencies and sus- suggest these pensions will be tried first, and that the local com- students attend. mittee of the school, and community members, We should seek to rehabilitate these people, will likewise be consulted. otherwise we might Find they enter the ranks of As the Hon. Bob Ketberington has pointed out criminals, which is something we must worry rightly, it is difficult fOr me in charge of the Bill about. We cannot merely expel these students and here, not being the Minister for Education, to be wash our hands of them if we are interested in more particular than I have been, except to say law and order in our society. We cannot shoot that obviously the Minister has given a great deal them-that is riot our philosophy. We believe that of attention to the structure of the regulations, each human being must be left to live a life. Be- and the Chamber will have an opportunity to re- cause we must live together in this society we view that structure when the regulations come be- must try to do something for t hese fore it for approval. people-particularly in this modern and complex society we have. I recollect that the point raised by the I-on. This clause is terribly important; it will give the Win Piesse is similar to that made by the Hon.' Graham MacKinnon. I agree totally that a degree Minister wide powers. In any order made under of maturil'y comes upon these children, and very this provision the Minister may give such further often we find an expelled child back at school at directions as he thinks fit relating to the education night, and is a different type of person. I can only of the child for whom the order is made. give my personal opinion, and note the Chamber I emphasise the words "such directions as he supports the Bill. thinks fit". The power is wide, and it is a power The Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: I do which must be used carefully. It places a grave re- not want to take issue with the Minister. What he sponsibility on the Minister, and it is one that I as has said is probably fair enough. I do want to take a Minister for Education would not relish. The re- issue with the Hon. Norman Moore. This matter sponsibility is real; if the Minister does not do the does not relate merely to compassion, although right thing we may finish up with another mur- that is one factor. derer or other type of criminal. We do not know I have learnt from my study of rape in this who we will finish up with. community that a high percentage of rapes are I suggest that the Minister-as the Minister in committed by young men from the lower end of this place indicated-seems to be aware of the the socio-economic group-they have some problem and is taking it up. 1 am not sure grudge against society. whether he has examined it yet in sufficient The Hon. A. A- Lewis: Is this in the Bill? depth. I will be interested to see the regulations, The Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: I am and certainly I will be interested to hear such referring to the directions the Minister might give further explanation of his intentions as he may in regard to an expelled student, and what the give to us, because I do think this is important. Minister might do in regard to the welfare of that Even if we do not think each individual, no student after expulsion. I am speaking specifically matter how depraved, is a brand to be plucked to this clause. from the burning, we should try to help those who We cannot wash our hands of expelled are incapable of helping themselves and those who students. Of course, some of them are like the seem to be a positive menace to our society. Even people Win Piesse talked about; they get out in if we do not think this way, we should think of the the world and find they need to return to the edu- good of society. We are not going to shoot them cation system. We need to allow them to do that. and we are not going to kill them off, so we have Long ago I wrote this principle into Labor policy; to try to make sure that they can be developed as it is not only my personal policy, but also my worth-while citizens and can learn to live with party's policy. If we just wash our hands of these other people. [Wednesday, 10 November 1982] 495595

This is a serious problem as is our whole edu- guidance officer-Mr Williams spoke at length cation system. We need to develop our education about guidance officers. Guidance officers were so system further. There is much to be done, and in hard to come by that we introduced a new pos- saying that ( am not criticising the people who are ition, one which is not as highly qualified. We in the system. There are good, bad and indiffer- must bear in mind that a guidance officer is a ent;, they are all human. qualified teacher who has a qualification in psy- When we think about directions for the future chology. we must remember that people change their The Hon. Neil Oliver: I wish the same situation minds. What the Labor Party did in the past is applied in private schools. not necessarily what 1 would do now. I was re- The Hon. 0. C. MacKINNON: One cannot sponsible for changing the words in our platform have everything. The best equipped and best man- about certain aspects in our education policy be- aged schools in this State today are Government cause I have learned something and I would not schools and perhaps with a little more discipline do now the things 1 would have done even live we may be able to make them shine entirely. years ago. My information then was incorrect and We introduced this other officer and I am quite I have learned and developed, as we all must do. certain that any child who was likely to face the That is the reason the Minister cannot say pre- sort of problems we have mentioned would have cisely what he will do. That is why his wide been referred to a number of people long before powers must be used wisely. I think future Minis- any desperate step, such as the one suggested in ters for Education will be aware that they are this legislation, was taken. under very fierce scrutiny by members of Parlia- Mr Hetherington asked whether the Education ment and other people when they exercise their Department was washing its hands of the child. powers, and they should be. Education has always washed its hands of certain The Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: What has been children in a community. There are some who are forgotten is that the whole process of educating classed as uneducable and a statutory figure sets children has been a progressive one and this was the minimum IQ at 60 or 65-I cannot remember highlighted in the speech made by the Hon. John exactly. Below that figure children are classed as Williams. uneducable and they go to a particular type of I mentioned that fact when the Hon. Norman training centre. Above that figure they go to the Moore was speaking, and -asked if he had any ordinary stream of education and they are passed comment to make on Mr Frank Usher's remarks up, year after year, until they turn IS and are al- in the paper because Frank Usher is an advanced lowed to leave school. There is no need for anyone teacher with one aberration-he tends to favour to point out that even below that figure many the other side of politics; apart from that I find children are in fact educable if toilet training, hy- him to be a very worth-while chap. giene training and those sorts of things, which are When I was Minister for Education, Mr Usher, part of one's total education, can be taught. In in conjunction with me, started the experiment at that context they are educable and indeed edu- the Hamilton High School of running multiple cated. It is amazing what patience, love and care schools on the one campus and it was round to be will teach these children. quite a success. The doubts voiced by Mr Hetherington are the Mr Usher used a method which was a forerun- doubts which have been considered by everybody ner to and an attempt to avoid this piece of legis- and they are the doubts which amount to the lation. He had a youth officer attached to the basic reason for this Bill. However, with the school. When Mr Usher took over it was a diffi- fullness of time and when a considerable number cult school and I say that as a marked understate- of agencies have been established which can help ment. He really had quite a remarkable effect on and assist in looking after recalcitrant children, a the school; in fact, the general behaviour of the time must come when the ultimate group to look school-which had the sort of difficulties Mr after such people are the police and the crime pre- Hetherington mentioned-underwent quite a vention officers. It is unfortunate that some metamorphosis. people find their way into that method of being The sorts of organisations to which a cared for, but that is a fact of life and it is un- child-such as Mr Hetherington men- avoidable. tioned-would be sent already exist and I would We hope that along the way all these steps can suggest that long before any child is actually ex- be taken and that the inevitable consequence will pelled from school he would have been put under not be reached. Mr Hetherington mentioned that the control of all sorts of people. He would go to a these children could go back to education. I was 4956 4956[COUNCIL] fortunate enough to institute a procedure whereby opportunity to write into the Hansard record of in this State adults could go back to high school, this Parliament that I was referring to the raising not just technical schools. of the school leaving age from the year in which The Hon. Robert Hetherington: A very good children turn 14 to the year in which they turn 15. move, too. I Support the clause. The Hon. Neil Oliver: Terribly expensive. The Hon. N. F. MOORE: May I very briefly The Hon. G. G. MacKINNON: It is one of correct a misunderstanding the Hon. Robert those things of which I am entirely proud and it Hetherington has in respect of what I said earlier. was not expensive. It is the universities that are When I referred to washing our hands of students expensive. I was talking about the educational system wash- We pride ourselves now that anybody who ing its hands of these students. wants any sort of education, whether it be from the absurdities of wine tasting through to the The Hon. Robert Hetherington: I accept that. realities of domestic economy, can obtain that The Hon. N. F. MOORE: They then become education without having to qualify by some ex- the responsibility of some other agency in our so- traneous examination. That education can be ob- ciety. There are plenty of those agencies, as the tained by proving a desire to learn. I hope that Hon. Graham MacKinnon mentioned. I do not will allay some of Mr Hetherington's concern. A think the resources of the Education Department number of high schools at present have adults at- should be used to help these children because of tending. the numbers involved. Mr Hetherington I issued an injunction that teachers be re- mentioned 50 to 100. quested not to smoke in the classrooms Or in front of the children, which has some bearing on The Hon. Robert Hetherington: That is what today's activities, I was aware that most of the the Minister said; 50 to 100 a year, he thought. children could teach them a thing or two. Any of The Hon. N. F. MOORE: If we look at this these people who a year or two later find them- number of students and the total student popu- selves a little behind the eight-ball and wishing to lation of Western Australia being, say. 200 000, get the sort of education they need can without we are looking at only a very small percentage; in any great trouble rejoin the educational stream fact, the number is probably less than the percent- and go as far as their capacity permits. While I age of people in society who are in solitary con- agree we have to be careful about this weapon finement in gaols. We are looking at the hard core that has been placed in the hands of the Minister, of incorrigible students who are in our schools. from my experience it will be used with care. I The percentage is very small indeed. assure the Hon. Robert Hetherington that most of the agencies necessary to look after the children The Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: I are currently in existence and have proved their always enjoy the Hon. Graham MacKinnon's ability to look after children who have severe speeches and quite often, as tonight, I agree with adjustment defects. almost everything he says, except his final con- The Hon. 1. G. PRATT: I rise to support this clusions. In fact, I think he makes my point. I clause in order to set straight a little misunder- take up the point he made, quite properly, that standing. When we rose after my second reading things are indeed progressive and there are now speech we did not sit the next day and I was un- children who are educable who we would have able to get back to correct Hansard. I should once thought were uneducable. point out a slight uncorrected error that was made. I said at one stage that one of the problems The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: Right. we had with children causing disruption in the The Hon. ROBERT HETHERINGTON: We classrooms was due to our raising the school age are improving all the time. I would hate the Min- from 14 to 15; in other words, the year in which ister under this clause ever to make the assump- children turn 14 and I5. I then said that a great tion that these people will never be rehabilitated; deal of trouble was caused because I 5-year-olds in fact, new methods might arise and we must wanted to leave school. I can understand the always be progressive and flexible. The honour- Hansard reporter's misunderstanding when it was able gentleman helped me make my point and for recorded that the trouble was caused when we that I thank him. raised the age from 15 to 16. Had any of my col- leagues read this they would have thought I knew Clause put and passed. nothing about the educational system. I take the Title put and passed. [Wednesday, 10 November 1982] 454957

Report of the factory effluent. The report also contains Bill reported, without amendment, and the re- details of the examination of a wide range of ef- fluent disposal options, including chemical port adopted. treatment, barging, marine pipeline disposal and Third Reading land disposal. Bill read a third time, on motion by the Hon. The recommendations of the committee, as de- R. G. Pike (Chief Secretary), and passed. tailed in the report, have been accepted by the Government, but it is necessary to broaden the LAPORTE INDUSTRIAL FACTORY existing provisions of the principal Act in relation AGREEMENT AMENDMENT BILL to the power of the State to acquire land before Receipt and First Reading the additional land needed for disposal of the fac- tory effluent can be obtained. Bill received from the Assembly; and, on motion by the Hon. I. G. Medcalf (Leader of the At present the Act provides that the State may House), read a first time. acquire land which it requires for the discharge of effluent from the Laporte works site into the Second Reading ocean, and it is likely this was considered to be the only suitable means of effluent disposal when THE HON. 1. G. MEDCALF (Metropolitan- Leader of the House) [10.28 p.m.J: I move- the legislation was passed in 196 1. That the Bill be now read a second time. Following the usual opening provisions for rati- fication of the variation agreement referred to in The principal purpose of this Bill is to obtain the the Bill, is an amendment to the land provisions of approval of Parliament to an amendment of the the principal Act to delete the passage "into the Laporte Industrial Factory Agreement Act 1961- the State to 1965 so that the State may acquire additional ocean". This amendment will enable land for the disposal of effluenit from the Laporte proceed with its intention to act on the recom- Australia Limited factory at Australind. This was mendation of the Laporte effluent disposal com- a recommendation in the report of the Laporte ef- mittee that access to additional land on fluent disposal committee. Lesehenault Inlet be secured immediately. However, as explained in the Laporte effluent Turning to the variation agreement, the rel- disposal committee's report, direct disposal of the evant clause is that providing for deletion of the factory effuent into the ocean through an outfall words "in the ocean" from the existing agreement at the surf zone proved unsatisfactory, and was under which the State has total responsibility for abandoned in 1968. Since that year, all the fac- the disposal of all effluent from the Laporte works tory effluent has been discharged into dunes on site. the peninsula between Leschenault Inlet and the By agreeing to these amendments, the State ocean. will be able to secure under the Act and the In observing that the technically preferred agreement, the land necessary for the proper and option for the effluent discharge is a managed long-term management of the disposal of effluent. combination of dune disposal, bore injection, and marine pipeline discharge, the report has con- I commend the Bill to the House. cluded a need exists for additional land to allow Debate adjourned, on motion by the Hon. Fred for satisfactory long-term management and for McKenzie. occasions when the -flow to the marine pipeline will need to be temporarily diverted to land. The Bill seeks also parliamentary ratification of the agreement made on 15 October 1982 between the State and Laporte Australia Limited to vary ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE: SPECIAL the provisions of the agreement scheduled to the THE HON. 1. G. MEDCALF (Metropolitan- principal Act for the same purpose. Leader of the House) 110.31 p.m.]: 1 move, with- The report to which I referred summarises the out notice- Findings and conclusions of the committee, which That the House at its rising adjourn until was formed by arrangements made in 1974 be- 11.30 am. tomorrow (Thursday). tween the State and Laporte Australia Limited, to undertake an extensive and jointly funded Question put and passed. investigation of the options available for disposal House adjourned at 10. 32 p.m. 4958 [COUNCIL) QUESTIONS ON NOTICE what total amount was registered as TRANSPORT: BUSES 1981-82 expenditure? MTT Offensive Behaviour The Hon. G. E. MASTERS replied: 703. The Hon. FRED McKENZIE, to the Min- Total wage and salary adjustments ister for Labour and Industry representing granted and paid during 1981-82 against the Minister for Transport: the Consolidated Revenue Fund votes of (I) If a person travelling on a Metropolitan the agriculture division amounted to Transport Trust bus behaves in a man- $1 455 million. ner considered to be offensive to other As pointed out by the Leader of the passengers on the bus, can the person be House representing the Treasurer to the requested by the driver to leave the bus? member in his reply to question 650 of (2) If the person refuses to leave tht bus when ordered to, what action is the 28 October. a number of factors other driver permitted to take to ensure that than award increases influence the out- the person is removed? lays by departments on salaries and The Hon. G. E. MASTERS replied: wages. (I) Yes. (2) Notify the MTT via two-way radio or telephone or, in an emergency, seek police assistance. HOSPITAL STATE FINANCE: BUDGET Roebourne Railways and Transport 704. The Hon. PETER DOWDING, to the Chief Secretary representing the Minister for 706. The H-In. D. K. DANS, to the Minister for Health: Labour and Industry representing the Minis- ter for Transport: (1) What alterations are proposed for the Roebourne Hospital? In respect of salary and wage ad- (2) What is the estimated cost of the work? justments for each of- The Hon. R. G. PIKE replied: (a) WA Government Railways Com- (1) Alterations proposed involve- mission; and (a) removal of substandard ward ac- (b) Metropolitan Transport Trust; commodation and services buildings from the site; what total amounts were registered as (b) relocation of ward units from 1981-82 expenditure? Damnpier to provide a newly de- The Hon. G. E. MASTERS replied: signed 14 bed air-conditioned ward unit with all necessary service The total salary and wage adjustments facilities; in respect of the Railways Commission (c) upgrading and air-conditioning of and the Metropolitan Transport Trust the kitchen; and which were granted and paid during (d) minor alterations to existing build- 1981-82 from these divisions under the ings to link with the new facilities. Consolidated Revenue Fund were as fol- (2) As this project is about to go to tender, I lows- believe the estimated cost of the work is a matter which the member should refer (a) Western Australian Government to the Minister for Health for a personal Railways Commission-$9.63 reply. million; (b) Metropolitan Transport STATE FINANCE: BUDGET Trust-$4.3 million. Agriculture 705. The Hon. D. K. DANS, to the Minister for I would also refer the member to the Labour and Industry representing the Minis- answer to his question 705 provided by ter for Agriculture: the Minister for Labour and Industry In respect of salary and wage ad- representing the Minister for justments for the agriculture division, Agriculture. [Wednesday, 1O November I982J)95 4959

STATE FINANCE: BUDGET Police and Road Traffic Authority div- Public Works isions, what total amount was registered as 1981-82 expenditure? 707. The Hon. D. K. DANS. to the Minister for Labour and Industry representing the Minis- The Hon. G. E. MASTERS replied: ter for Works: Total salary and wage adjustments In respect of salary and wage ad- granted and paid during 1981-82 in re- justments for the public works and spect of the police and road traffic div- isions under the Consolidated Revenue buildings division, what total amount was registered as 1981-82 expenditure? Fund amounted to $2 026 million. I would also refer the member to the The Hon. G. E. MASTERS replied: answer to his question 705 provided by Total salary and wage adjustments the Minister for Labour and Industry granted and paid during 198 1-82 against representing the Minister for the Consolidated Revenue Fund votes of Agriculture. the Public Works Department and buildings division amounted to $2 079 HOUSING: RENTAL million. Cost I would also refer the member to the answer to his question 705 provided by 710. The Hon. J. M. BERINSON, to the Chief the Minister for Labour and Industry Secretary representing the Minister for representing the Minister for Mousing: Agriculture. (1) In respect of the current year's State Housing Commission building pro- STATE FINANCE: BUDGET gramme of rental accommodation in the Health metropolitan area, what is the estimated cost per unit of- 708. The Hon. D. K. DANS, to the Chief Sec- retary representing the Minister for Health: (a) land; (b) building; In respect of salary and wage ad- justments for each of- for each of the following classes of ac- commodation- (a) public health division; and (i) one-bedroomed pensioner units; (b) Mental Health Services division; (ii) two-bedroomed units; what total amounts were registered as (iii) three-bedroomed units; 1981-82 expenditure? (iv) four-bedroomed units; The Hon. IL.G. PIKE replied: (v) five-bedroomed units; The total salary and wage adjustments (vi) one-bedroomed pensioner flats; granted and paid during 1981-82 in re- (vii) townhouses; spect of the public health and mental (viii) duplexes; health divisions under the Consolidated (ix) single detached houses? Revenue Fund were as follows- (2) What is the anticipated average size per (a) Public Health...... $1 712 million; unit of each of the above classes of ac- (b) Mental Health .... $2 689 million. commodations? 1 would also refer the member to the The Hon. R. G. PIKE replied: answer to his question 705 provided by (1) and (2) The information sought will the Minister for Labour and Industry take some time to collate and therefore I representing the Minister for will reply to the question by letter. Agriculture. HOSPITALS STATE FINANCE: BUDGET Roebourne and Wickham Police 709. The Hon. 0. K. DANS, to the Minister for 711. The Hon. PETER DOWDING, to the Labour and Industry representing the Minis- Chief Secretary representing the Minister for ter for Police and Prisons: Health: In respect of salary and wage ad- Would the Minister supply details of the justments for what were previously the staff classifications and numbers and 4960 [COUNCIL)

MAINTENANCE SER- staff hours for each of Roebourne and VICE Wickham Hospitals in 1979, 1980, 1981 Gardener 0.90 1.00 1.1$ 1.22 1.02 and 1982? 0.90 1.00 1.15 1.22 1.02 The Hon. R. G. PIKE replied: 21,20 22-10 23.99 24.26 21.69

WICK HAM 'Totals for main service headinga arc corects. Detailed. siparrclasaiflCatioS FINANCIAL YEARS are estimates.

Average All staffing igure arc in full dine eqairaleni terms i.e. the average We (or fortnight of all hours worked and paid for annual and sick leave ror each 82-83 financial year of each classifiction of staff related to each functional ser- to vice in the Hospitals. NURSING SERVICES 79-79 79.80 80-81 91-92 7/10/82 Matron 1.01 0.99 1.04 1.01 Double certificate RO;N 3.76 3.82 3,97 4.04 4.38 Single certificate RGN 2.08 2.12 2.19 2.31 2.46 WATER RESOURCES Enrolled nurse 2.95 3113 4,12 4.65 6.17 Nursing assistant 0.82 0,14 South-west Shires 10.80 10."0 11,41 12,04 14.02 712. The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH, to the Minister for Labour and Industry rep- ADMINISTRATION AND resenting the Minister for Works: CLER ICAL Admininstratio' 1.00 1.00 0,96 0Q97 L38 Clerk 1.00 1.00 0.91 1,17 1.98 (1) What flew water schemes or other major Clerical assistant 0.50 0.40 1.04 0.82 - capital works involving water supplies, 2.50 2.40 2.91 2.96 3.36 have been built in- (a) each of the shires in South Prov- MEDICAL SUPPORT Radiographer 1.00 1.03 1.01 1.06 1.15 ince; and (b) Katanning and Broomehill Shires;, HOSTEL SERVICES Food Maid 1.00 1.01 0.99 1.02 1.02 Laundry worlier 1.00 0199 0198 1.01 1.31 during the last 12 financial years? Cleaning maid 4.11 4.10 4.73 5.19 4.53 Orderly 1.90 1.80 1.92 2.16 2.11 (2) What projects- 8.01 1.9 8.62 9238 8.97 (a) are to be undertaken following this year's capital works programme; MAINTENANCE SER- and VICES Gardener 0.99 0.97 0.81 1.00 0.91 (b) are expected to be undertaken fol- Handyman 0.98 0.99 1.04 1.05 1.00 lowing current planning? REMO 1.01 1.0X 0.96 1.01 1.00 (3) What was the value of these projects? 2.8 2.96 2.8' 3.06 2.97 The Hon. G. E. MASTERS replied: 25.29 25,19 26.76 28.50 30.47 (1) to (3) As the information requested by the member is not readily available the ROEBOURNE Minister for Works has undertaken to FINANCIAL YEARS reply to this question in writing. Average r 82.83 to NURSING SERVICES 78-79 79-80 80-81 81-82 /10/82 M atron 1.07 I 05 1.05 1.07 1.10 QUESTJONS WITHOUT NOTICE Doable certiricate RON 1.80 1.80 1.68 118 1.80 Single certificate RO N 3.30 4.75 4.71 4.86 3.33 STATE FINANCE: STAMP DUTY Enrolled nurse 3.53 2.90 4.1$ 4.25 4.20 Nursing assistant 0.60 0.60 0.56 0.50 0.50 Avoidance: Bunbury Foods Thy. Ltd. 10.30 11.10 12.15 12.56 10.93 174. The Hon. PETER DOWDING, to the Attorney General: ADMI NISTRATION AND I refer the Attorney General to the CLERICAL Clerk 1.30 1.60 1.59 1.35 1.60 documents given to him yesterday on be- 0.50 0.20 - clerical assistant 0.14 0.34 half of the company Sunbury Foods Pty. 1.80 1.90 1.59 1.49 1.94 Ltd. and I ask-

HOSTEL SERVICES (1) What inquiries or investigations has Foodmaid 2.46 2.48 2.54 2.56 2.09 he instituted, if any, in relation to cook 1,48 1.51 1.52 1.58 1.50 Laundry worker 1.15 1.16 1.18 1.16 1.10 the possible avoidance of Western Cleaning maid 1.99 1.85 2.76 2.56 2.00 Orderly 1.12 1.10 1.10 1.13 1.10 Australian stamp duty? (2) What are the results of his inquiries 8.20 8.10 9.10 8.99 7.19 or investigations? [Wednesday, 10 November 1982J 496196

(3) Has he referred the matter to the The Hon. Carry Kelly: True though. Treasurer to see whether an agree- The PRESIDENT: Order! I suggest to the ment between the Government and honourable member that this question is the company in relation to the ad- seeking an opinion and is therefore out vance of money may have been of order. breached? (4) If not, why not? STATE FINANCE: STAMP DUTY The Hon. 1.0G. MEDCALF replied: Avoidance: Bunbury Foods Pity. Ltd. (1) to (4) I have referred the matter to the Commissioner of State Taxation and the 177. The Hon. PETER DOWDING, to the Commissioner for Corporate Affairs. I Leader of the House: have not at this stage referred it to any- (1) Does he not in this House represent the one else. I am awaiting the results of my Treasurer? inquiries. (2) In those circumstances, does he not re- gard the matter that has been raised STATE FINANCE: STAMP DUTY with him in relation to Bunbury Foods Avoidance: Bunbury Foods Ply. Lid. Pty. Ltd. as a matter appropriate for him to refer to the Treasurer? 175. The Hon. PETER DOWDING, to the (3) If not, why not? Attorney General: The Hon. 1.0G. M EDCALF replied: (1) Is he aware that Bunbury Foods Pity. (1) Ltd. is a company to which the Western to (3) The President has already given a Australian Government under the auth- ruling on this matter. I have indicated ority of the Treasurer had made sub- that the matter is outside my portfolio. stantial advances and given substantial Of course I represent the Treasurer in guarantees? this House, but that does not alter the fact (2) In those circumstances, will he not ac- that Ministers are not required to answer, nor should they cept that this is an appropriate matter be asked to, questions in relation for him to refer to the Treasurer? to another Minis- ter's portfolio. The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF replied: (I) and (2) The matter is outside my port- The Hon P. G. Pendal: Hear, hear? folio. If the honourable member wishes to address the question to the Treasurer STATE FINANCE: STAMP DUTY he is at liberty to do so. Avoidance: Bun bury Foods Ply. Ltd. 178. The Hon. PETER DOWDING, to the INDUSTRIAL ARBITRATION Leader of the House and Minister rep- AMENDMENT BILL (No. 2) resenting the Treasurer: Poland: Similarity Will he refer to the Treasurer the mat- 176. The Hon. TOM STEPHENS, to the Minis- ters raised in this House regarding ter for Labour and Industry: Bunbury Foods Pty. Ltd. and the poss- (1) Has the Minister seen the advertisement ible avoidance of Western Australian on page 51 of The West Australian of stamp duty? 27 October 1982 which drew parallels The PRESIDENT: Order! I suggest to the between the Western Australian honourable member that he is asking a Government and the Government of question without notice in contravention Poland? of the ruling that I gave that he cannot (2) Does be acknowledge the existence of ask a question without notice of a Minis- this parallel or similarity between the ter in respect of his representation of a legislation of this Government and that Minister in another place. of the Polish Government with particu- The Hon. PETER DOWDING: With re- lar reference to the Industrial Arbi- spect. Sir, I have asked him that tration Amendment Bill (No. 2)? question in his capacity as Leader of t0a: The Hon. P. H. Lockyer: What absolutely House, not in his capacity as rep- disgraceful comments! resenting the Premier. 4962 4962[COUNCIL]

The PRESIDENT: Order! The honourable not intend to answer any further member referred to the Leader of the questions to the same effect. House and the Minister representing the Treasurer and in that regard the mem- STATE FINANCE: STAMP DUTY ber is out of order. I ask the honourable member if he wants to direct a question Avoidance: Bunbury Foods Pty. Ltd. to the Attorney General in the capacity 181. The Hon. PETER DOWDING, to the At- of his portfolios. It is perfectly clear that torney General: he can do so. Will he undertake to the House that he will report as to the results of the STATE FINANCE: STAMP DUTY investigations in relation to the Bunbury Avoidance; Bun bury Foods ty. Lid. Foods Pty. Ltd. affair before Parliament 179. The Hon. PETER DOWDING, to the rises so that this House can be fully ap- prised of the Matter? Leader of the House: The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF replied: (1) 1 observe as a preface to my question that he also represents, in this case, the The honourable member will receive a Treasurer and I ask him in his capacity reply in answer to the question he asked as Leader of the IHouse will he refer to yesterday as soon as I am able to give it. the Treasurer, the Minister he rep- resents in this place, the matters raised EMPLOYMENT AND UNEMPLOYMENT by me about Bunbury Foods Pty. Ltd. Chamberlain John Deere PM. Ltd. and the waste of public money and avoidance of stamp duty? 182. The Hon. PETER DOWDING, to the (2) If not, why not? Minister for Labour and Industry: The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF replied: (1) Did he this evening receive a deputation (1) and (2) The honourable member is from the sacked workers from Chamber- seeking to make a fuss about something lain John Deere Pty. Ltd., in WA, some I answered yesterday. I said yesterday 200 of whom were at the front of Parlia- that I would have inquiries made into ment House? the matters raised by him. I stand by (2) Did he give them any indication of ac- that reply and have nothing further to tion the Government was taking to add to it. protect their jobs? (3) What proposals, if any, does he or the STATE FINANCE: STAMP DUTY Government have to give them some hope for employment? Avoidance: Bunbury Foods ty. Ltd. The Hon. G. E. MASTERS replied: 180. The Hon. PETER DOWDING, to the (1) to (3) Yes, I did meet a deputation led Leader of the House: by the President of the TLC and rep- Is he aware the Government apparently resenting a number of those workers has financial commitments and obli- who have been retrenched by Chamber- gations in respect of Bunbury Foods Pty. lain John Deere Pty. Ltd. I also met Ltd., and in those circumstances would with some unions on Thursday last and he regard this matter as urgent and refer with the company on Friday. I met with it to the Treasurer? the unions again today and I will meet The I-on. 1. G. MEDCALF replied: the company officers tomorrow. I do not know how much longer I am ex- Obviously the Government is most pected to answer the same question. I concerned with the retrenchment of 290 have already said that if the member people from Chamberlain John Deere wishes to address a question to the and will be pursuing all avenues possible Treasurer he may do so. He knows that to get jobs for them or to retain their perfectly well. I have indicated to him jobs in one way or another; that is the that the matter raised by him yesterday reason I am meeting with the company will be the subject of an inquiry. That is tomorrow. as far as I can take it. There is nothing The State Government has already com- further I can add to the matter and I do mitted something like $1 billion to capi- [Wednesday, 10 November 1982] 464963

taT works. The Premier has requested company to rind out what had happened that these works be brought forward im- and arrangements were made for me to mediately in order that these people may meet with Peter Cook from the TLC. I be employed as a result of the generous met with the company and I will do all I works programme of the State Govern- can in relation to meetings with the ment and the Premier of the day. company and the Premier. A commitment of $35 to S40 million has been made by the Government for ap- EMPLOYMENT AND UNEMPLOYMENT prenticeship schemes. Some 13 per cent Chamberlain John Deere ty. Ltd. of all apprentices in WA are employed by Government departments. That is 184. The I-on. PETER DOWDING, to the over 1 800 apprentices and does not in- Minister for Labour and Industry: clude those apprentices who will be em- (1) Since everyone in Western Australia ployed in the new projects proposed by knows of the difficult conditions that the Government. The Commonwealth exist in country areas for some months Government has been approached in re- now, will the Minister say why neither lation to some new schemes and I will he nor his department has taken action phone the Commonwealth Minister (Mr to liaise with the company employing a Macphee) tomorrow morning to obtain labour force the size of that at more support from the Commonwealth Chamberlain John Deere Pty. Ltd. be- Government. fore the lay-offs occurred? The company's position is clear. It needs (2) Why is it the Minister was not aware of to retrench workers if it is to keep its events until he read of them in the news- head above water, or some 1 400 people paper? will be affected in total. Therefore, the (3) What action has he taken to improve his company has a problem. Nevertheless, liaison with industry? the State Government is clearly commit- The Hon. G. E. MASTERS replied: ted to take all the action it is possible to (1) to (3) In answer to the glamour boy who take to protect those jobs, I will assist in has just asked this question- any possible way to see that the jobs are maintained. I will not make this a politi- Several members interjected, cal exercise. I am as concerned as any- The I-on. G. E. MASTERS: I guess it is one else;, it is a disaster for a person to what we can expect- be placed in this position. We will do the The PRESIDENT: Order! same as the Opposition would do if in The Hon. Robert Hetherington: What a Government. fatuous remark. EMPLOYMENT AND UNEMPLOYMENT Several members interjected. The PRESIDENT: Order! Chamberlain John Deere Pty. Ltd. The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I say again the 183, The H-on. PETER DOWDING, to the Government is concerned with the un- Minister for Labour and Industry: employment and retrenchments of these When was he informed by the company 290 workers. The company, I guess, first that a massive lay-off of workers makes its own decision as to when it will was likely to occur and what action did communicate its problems to the he take after he was informed, if he was Government. I understand the company informed before the lay-offs occurred? had some lengthy discussions with the shop stewards; that is what I was told. The Hon. G. E. MASTERS replied: The member talks about unemployment I thought suggestions were made earlier in country areas; of course we know in the year that lay-offs might occur. I there is unemployment in country areas understand this was in April and May. as there is in the metropolitan area. The first knowledge I had that the lay- Nevertheless we are trying to cover the off of 290 people was to occur was when whole State with the new budgeting pro- I read it in the newspaper early one grammes involving expenditure of St morning in this House. Obviously after billion. This money will be spent that I got my department to ccntact the throughout the State. If certain indus- 4964 4964I[COUNC IL]

tries are under pressure the Government EMPLOYMENT AND UNEMPLOYMENT will have to do what it can to assist. In Retrenchments: Companies Involved the short term the Government wants to create employment so that in the long 186. The Hon. PETER DOWDING, to the term these companies will find them- Minister for Labour and Industry: selves in a better position to employ As the Minister has indicated he has people. read in the Press that lay-offs may occur at certain companies, will he now say in EMPLOYMENT AND UNEMPLOYMENT what specific areas is he aware these Retrenchments: Companies In valved lay-offs may occur, and what specific action the Government is taking to en- 185. The Hon. PETER DOWDING, to the sure these lay-offs do not occur? Minister for Labour and Industry: The Hon. G. E. MASTERS replied: (1) Is the Minister aware of other I will answer this question, and then ask companies in which lay-offs are about to the member to place on notice further occur? questions relating to this matter. My (2) Ifso, what action has the Minister taken answer is as follows- in respect or those companies? Some pressure is being experienced The Hon. G. E. MASTERS replied: in the heavy engineering and (1) and (2) 1 have no certain knowledge of engineering industries and in some this matter. building areas. I have no specific in- stances, but I do know of many The Hon. Peter Dowding: You do not know companies experiencing difficulties much at all. at this time. Many of these The Hon. P. H. Lockyer: If you are going to companies will overcome these dif- be rude, you should not ask questions. ficulties by various arrange- The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: If the Hon. ments-perhaps by different Peter Dowding wants a reply, let him methods of management, and the keep quiet; if he does not keep quiet, he like. It may be that the work force can place his question on notice. It is up can make alternative arrangements to him. To continue: The Government regarding working hours, and that has been informed retrenchments may sort of thing. Like other members, I occur in other areas; however, we have am aware difficulties are being ex- no certain information on this matter. perienced; however, I have nothing specific to give to the IHon. Peter The Hon. Peter Dowding: In which areas? Dowding. The Hon. G. Ei. MASTERS: The infor- The Hon. Peter Dowding: You have a de- mation is coming forward, and as soon partment to keep you informed on these as I receive it, I will inform members. matters. However, it is quite clear from Press re- leases and Press reports that companies The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: If the Hon. Peter Dowding cares to state in writing are under pressure. The Government exactly what he wants to know, I will and the department continually are take the trouble to obtain the details for monitoring the situation. him. The Hon. Tom Stephens: Watching while Rome burns. EMPLOYMENT AND UNEMPLOYMENT The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I took the Midland Brick Co. Thy. Ltd. trouble to inform the Leader of the Op.- position of this matter and to provide 187. The Hon. FRED McKENZIE, to the Min- him with details of the figures in the ister for Labour and Industry: Government's possession at that time; I (1) Is he aware Midland Brick Co. Pty. Ltd. will continue to do so. I share the con- is contemplating closing its premises for cern of members opposite. These prob- a period? lems are no secret, and we are doing our (2) If not, will he make inquiries and advise best to overcome them. the House at the next sitting? (Wednesday, 10 November 1982] 464965

The Hon. 0. E. MASTERS replied: The H-on. P. H. Lockyer: Don't you talk; you (1) No, I am not aware of that situation. are under a cloud. (2) Yes, if there is a need to inform the The Hon. Peter Dowding: If anyone took you member as he wishes, I certainly will do seriously- so. The Hon. I. G. Pratt: Belt up, you twit! Wit hdra wal of Remark EMPLOYMENT AND UNEMPLOYMENT The Hon. TOM STEPHENS: Mr President. I seek your guidance on this matter. The Retrenchments: Companies Involved I-on. P. H-. Lockyer has just suggested I 188. The Hon. PETER DOWDING, to the am under some sort of cloud, and I ask Minister for Labour and Industry: that he be made to withdraw the remark This is my final question on this matter, or that I be given the right to make and I preface it by asking the Minister some sort of explanation regarding the to be specific instead of simply gen- matter. eralising. I ask- The PRESIDENT: Order! What are the (1) Does he, as Minister, know or does words the honiourable member wants he not know which industries and withdrawn, and who made the com- companies are at risk in terms of ment? lay-offs? The Hon. TOM STEPHENS: The Hon. (2) If not- P. H. Lockyer twice suggested to me that I was under some sort of cloud, and Government members interjected. I request you to ask Mr Lockyer to The Hon. PETER DOWDING: -will he withdraw those remarks. take steps to inform this House in The PRESIDENT: Order! I want to know respect of- what were the comments, because I did Government members interjected. not hear them. If the honourable mem- The Hon. R. J. L. Williams: You simply ber would tell me the specific comment want to panic the public. made- The Hon. PETER DOWDING: I know The Hon. Peter Dowding: He said he was members opposite think the retrench- under a cloud. menit of 250 workers is a bit of a giggle. The PRESIDENT: Order! I want the Hon. The Hon. P. H. Lockyer: Do not be so stupid! Tom Stephens to tell me, not somebody The Hon. PETER DOWDING: To repeat else. the second part of my question- The Hon. TOM STEPHENS: On two oc- (2) If not, will the Minister obtain the casions, the H-on. P. H. [.ockyer said specilic information and specifically that I was under a cloud. I regard that inform this House before Parlia- as an offensive remark and 1 ask that he merit rises exactly what the Govern- be required to withdraw. ment is doing in these specific The PRESIDENT: Order! I ask the Hon. areas? P. H. Lockyer to withdraw the corn- The Hon. G. E. MASTERS replied:. merits and suggest he should not interject with unparliamnentary com- and (2) 1 take heart that the member (1) ments. has announced this is his final question. Perhaps he can take heart from my The Hon. P. H. LOCKYER: I withdraw, Mr suggestion that he place it on notice so President; I did not realise the remark that I may obtain an answer for him. was unparliamentary. The PRESIDENT: Order! I ask all members The Hon. Peter Dowding: Aren't you hope- to cease interjecting, and remind mem- less? bers that when they take uip a parlia- Several members interjected. mentary life, sensitivity is one emotion The Hon. Tom Stephens interjected. they cannot afford.