Oral History Recording

ORAL HISTORY RECORDING

ACCESSION NUMBER: S00162

TITLE: DAME MARGARET BLACKWOOD, WOMEN'S AUXILIARY AUSTRALIAN AIR FORCE.

INTERVIEWEE: DAME MARGARET BLACKWOOD

INTERVIEWER:

RECORDING DATE: 28 MAY 1984

RECORDING LOCATION: PARKVILLE, VICTORIA

SUMMARY: DAME MARGARET'S EXPERIENCES IN THE WAAAF AS DRILL INSTRUCTOR AND IN SIGNALS, AND AS COMMANDING OFFICER OF NUMBER 1 WAAAF TRAINING DEPOT DURING WORLD WAR II; RETURN TO CIVILIAN LIFE AFTER WAR.

TRANSCRIBER: CHRISTOPHER SOAMES

TRANSCRIPTION DATE: SEPTEMBER 1995

START OF TAPE ONE - SIDE A

Identification: Margaret Blackwood, Parkville, Victoria; Monday, 28 May, 1984.

Dame Margaret, you served with the Women's Auxiliary Australian Air Force, for just on five years during World War II. When you joined the ranks as a drill instructor, on 15 March 1941, you already held an MSc; could you describe, please, your background and how it led to your enrolment in the WAAAF?

I was very fortunate in my background; in my family background I had very liberal minded parents who were interested in education; that was the primary object of their lives, to give we three children a good education. And so we were sent to very good schools, and we were very fortunate to be well educated, and this has been the pattern of my life. The boys automatically were to go to the university.

Curiously enough, my father - who was a very enlightened man, and some of his best students were women - just didn't think the university was a place for women, and so I was to stay at home and help my mother. We'd have killed each other of course, but still, I was to stay at home and help her. But my father died while I was still at school, and so I had to earn my own living, and after doing a teacher's training course I entered the university and had a very full life - but not a very successful academic one at first - and eventually I got a BSc - after going back to teaching for a while too - and then did an MSc, and was asked to stay on as a research person in the university.

Now, just about this time war broke out - and I suppose all the young men that I knew were enlisting, but even more so, I had a friend who's brothers had - two of them had been in the First World War, and three of them had enlisted in the Second World War - and she felt that I was young and vigorous, and that I should do something for my country in this way. And so I somehow - I don't remember how - but I joined the Women's Air Training Corps, which was a group of women who were practising, first of all, their main object was to practice wireless telegraphy so that they could get up to thirty words a minute and be eligible for the air force - if ever women came into the air force - and they drilled too. I soon got behind in the WT, but spent a lot of time learning drill from a book.

So, when eventually the WAAAF did start, the person in charge of the WATC, Mrs Bell, invited me to be interviewed for officership. And so along I went, and I was interviewed by three people - three notable people - Wing Commander Radford, Wing Commander Tunbridge, and Mrs Williamson who was a National Council of Women president at the time.

Well, some little while afterwards I got a letter from the secretary for air telling me that I didn't have officer qualities, and that if I wished I could go in through the ranks and perhaps could apply for officer status later.

Well, this was quite a crisis for me because I had persuaded the University of Melbourne that I would be much more use in the air force than doing research in the university, and so having had a fight to be allowed to go - although actually we had to resign: we weren't given leave, we had to resign at that stage - but it would have been rather difficult to go back and say, Give me my job again - and so I went into the ranks.

Now, this was on the first intake, and when I looked at the musterings that were required: cooks - and I couldn't cook anything except a boiled egg - typists, stenographers, they were beyond me too. I realised they'd have to have one NCO, a drill instructor, to look after them. So I got hold of the book and I learned it up, and I did a trade test and I got fifty-one per cent. So I came in as the drill instructor, the lowest of the musterings, Grade 5. And so, as the numbers were in order of the grades of musterings, mine was the last, 90017 - there were eighteen of us from 90000 to 90017 - and I was at the bottom of this list because my mustering was so low.

Well, it took them all day at the recruiting depot to inspect us medically. The forms they used, of course, were men's forms so our tummies were measured to see whether we (laughs) were pot-bellied, our feet were inspected with great gusto, we were given the colour blind test as for flying personnel, and all sorts of curious questions were asked. And by the end of that Saturday we were all enroled - not enlisted, but enroled - in the Women's Auxiliary Australian Air Force.

Were you enroled at Mayfield Avenue or at a recruit centre?

Oh, we were enroled at a recruit centre. And then they discovered that there was no straw for the palliasses and, in fact, no beds to sleep on, and so we were given the weekend of leave. And off we all went and we had to report at 8 o'clock on Monday morning.

I remember I was terrified of being late so I got a taxi out to the Number 1 WAAAF Depot in Mayfield Avenue, Toorak. And within two hours there came a signal through to the unit that ACW Blackwood, M, was to be promoted to a temporary acting unpaid corporal (laughs). So that's how I became an NCO, and my great sorrow was that because we had no uniforms I never wore those two stripes. However, that's how we came in.

Now, we were all in this school building, and the poor drill instructor, being the only NCO, had to be up before everybody else and wake them up at a quarter to six, organise them through the shower - we only had one shower and it was in the bath, and you had to put your feet in pot(assium) permanganate to keep away tinea. So it was a case of like drafting sheep through a race, I drafted them all through the bath, and this was really quite ... And the officers out at the depot, they didn't know what was going on, you see, so they would say, 'Corporal, what do we do about so and so?' and so quite accidentally a lot of the fundamental rules of the WAAAF were laid down in those days by the temporary unpaid acting corporal.

This was most exciting, and we had lectures from a flight sergeant RAAF. And on the Thursday we were dressed in men's boiler suits and blue berets. The arms of the boiler suits were far too - the sleeves - were far too long for anybody, and they were very, very difficult things to get on and off in moments of stress, and very curious results occurred as a consequence.

But our very first lecture, I remember, we were all there, all agog, to listen to what the flight sergeant had to say; and he stood there and he said, 'Now, then, this 'ere WAAAF, it aint a matrimonial bureau'. That was actually our first opening gambit for our course about the air force. He went on to help us considerably, but he also, of course, taught me to be a drill instructor; and he taught me all kinds of little things, and one thing was to use what he

3 called a 'tickler'. Now, this was a piece of cardboard that fitted into your left hand, and you held your hand down by your side and you looked down for the orders - you wrote the orders down there before so that you wouldn't forget them. But what he didn't realise, of course, was that most women, and especially me, can't look over their bosoms down to their left hand by their side (laughs), so it was virtually useless as far as I was concerned. However, it showed willingness.

And I always remember the first meal we had. We all lined up, absolutely starving - we'd been on the drill square for hours it seemed to us - and we lined up and we got our plate of food and we sat down to eat it. And there was an ACW Dalton sitting opposite to me, and she polished off everything on her plate, and somebody said, 'Those swedes were nice', and she grasped her throat and she said, 'Swedes! swedes! I've never eaten swedes in my life', and there she'd swallowed the lot. So it just shows you how hungry we got on the drill square.

We spent a lot of time on the drill square, and it was very exciting and we made great friendships. And those original WAAAF, just recently at the reunion - fourteen of us - got together, and I think that's quite remarkable because two of them had died and the other one who didn't come was interstate. And we had a very happy afternoon tea with photographs and exchanging stories of those early days. There is a great feeling of friendship amongst those early WAAAF, the first intake in March 1941.

Well, much to the amazement of the officers, a top secret signal came to the unit. Blackwood, M, acting temporary unpaid corporal was to report to the Directorate of Signals in at the Victoria Barrack Air Force Headquarters in Victoria Barracks in St Kilda Road, and here began the next phase of my existence.

Well, I reported to the Director of Signals, Group Captain Wiggins, and the Deputy Director beside him, Wing Commander Hugh Berry; and they said to me, 'Corporal, we want you to make up a cypher for the Pacific', and I said, having been trained by the RAAF flight sergeant, I said, 'Yes, Sir'. And they told me afterwards what confidence I'd given them; I had never even heard of a cypher. But here began a marvellous piece of work, making up a cypher for use by the Dutch, the Australians, and the Americans in the Pacific;

4 it was later called Angusair.

Now, this meant that I had to be commissioned as an officer, and so I became an acting assistant section officer, the lowest form of officer in the WAAAF, and as such I still lived in the barracks at Mayfield Avenue and went in every day to do the job.

For this all the cyphers were composed at Air Ministry in London and were sent out by ship, as there were no aircraft flying out, and they were frequently being sent to the bottom of the sea as their ships were sunk - so greatly daring, and I can't help realising what a terrific step it must have been for Air Ministry in London to ask the small RAAF to make up a cypher for the Pacific; they must have thought about it for a long time.

The night before I was in front of the Director of Signals, here the signal came down, could we make up a cypher for the Pacific for use by the Dutch, the Americans, and the Australians, modeled on the AF signals and cypher manuals. Well, here was the challenge.

And a very curious thing happened. The Deputy Director of Signals, Hugh Berry, that evening, after the signal had arrived, went to dinner with his brother-in-law, Professor Boyce Gibson of the University of Melbourne. And he happened to say to Professor Boyce Gibson, who lived three doors away from us, did he know of a WAAAF who had joined, and who had a university degree and knew something about the English language. Well, Boyce Gibson said yes, well Margaret Blackwood had joined the WAAAF; and so this is how I was sent for. Mind you, I can't spell, and I really didn't know much about the root of English words, but here I was, standing before the Director of Signals.

Well, the most exciting three months, I think, that I spent in the air force, began. The work was top secret so I was given the keys of the safe - and they were not to leave my body, I had to sleep with them - and I had not to give away any secrets. And I found out, three months later, that I'd been shadowed all that time; wherever I went, I was shadowed.

Then I was shown the combination of the lock which I had to memorise, and I remember the dramatic moment when Hugh Berry wrote the numbers on a piece of paper, showed them to me, and told me to open the safe - which I did - then he scrambled them and he put

5 the bit of paper away and said, 'Do it agian', and I did it correctly. And then he took out a matchbox and he burnt the piece of paper - most dramatic.

Well, I lived this top secret life for three months, and it was fascinating. And we had to make up these cyphers, which are like dictionaries - and the air force uses four-figure numbers so that, for instance, if you had 'determine', you'd have one four-figure number - say, 2468 for 'determine' - and then, of course, you could have 'determining', 'determination', 'determined', and there was a special four-letter group that you used to indicate which word ending you were to use. So it was a very complicated thing, and there was a possibility of making a lot of mistakes. We had two books, one for common words, one for proper names.

And then, of course, we had to have a - you didn't transmit the translation into numbers directly, you had to have a re-ciphering table. And you had pages of four-figure numbers in rows of five groups, and so when you sent the message you said which page of this deciphering table you would start your message - it might be, say, page 10, line 5. And so you would put your numbers that you'd found from the dictionaries under these and subtract without carrying, and that would be the message you sent. And then, when they got the message, they'd go to the re-cyphering table again and they'd add those and get back the original message - quite a complicated business.

Now, these re-cyphering tables, in the end, had to be made one per day because the Japs and the Germans were breaking the codes. So we had to make up these re-cyphering tables every day. And it became quite a big task and quite a big section, after I left it, was developed.

I always remember that Director WAAAF got an assistant for us, Rosemary George, who had been in the WAAAF in England. And she rang me up and said I'd better go and meet her, that she'd been in the WAAAF in England, so I immediately thought in the last war and she must be sixty, and that she was very prim and proper. So I said to my two companions, Joan Bostok and Nancy Foster - Joan Bostok was the daughter of the CAS, and Nancy Foster was a civilian - and the three of us had been struggling with this thing, typing out the numbers on paper, cutting up the paper and pulling them out of a sack. And I

6 said to them, 'We'll have to mind our p's and q's, no more bloodies and damns and things, we'll just have to be very prim and proper'.

So I went to meet Rosemary, and the first thing I found was she was a contemporary of mine, she was my age - and I thought how much they'd laugh when I brought her in. Well, I took her round and she started work, and she had to type the numbers on an aluminium sheet, and all the numbers had to be the same weight, otherwise when they were printed you'd have a difference and it would be hard to read. So here she was, typing these numbers onto this aluminium sheet - clack, clack, clack, clack! And all of a sudden, after two days, she said, 'God, struth, stiffen the crows, I can't do this bloody thing', and so we shrieked with mirth and we decided we'd be great friends from that day on - which we were - but she took over my job.

And when we added up the number of mistakes, which included missing out commas, or dashes, there were ten mistakes in the two books, each of 20,000 entries, so it wasn't too bad an effort, and it was frightfully exciting, and it taught me, of course, secrecy and security which have lasted all these days.

Well, just for a moment I'd like to revert to my background because some years later - having been tossed back as an officer, as I've said before - some years later Wing Commander Tunbridge met me in the mess and he said, 'Blackie, I've just found your personal file, and I don't think we ever gave three A's to anybody except you'. Now, this was interesting, you see, because each of those three interviewers must have given me an A, and yet I was told I didn't have the qualities to be an officer.

Well, the reason for this was really quite simple, that Mrs Bell found, after asking ten of us to come and be officers, she found that she was only allowed an establishment of five. And she didn't know much about me, I was not a personal friend of hers, but she knew about five others - Cynthia Letts, Mrs Risson, Dave Hawthorn, Nel Rawlins, and herself - were the first five, and so I went into the ranks, as you've heard, as a drill instructor. Now, these three A's were probably the result of my background - and I would just like to say something about that.

I lived in a scholarly environment; my father had educated himself in Tasmania, and got scholarships to the university. In fact, he was the first MA of the University of Tasmania. And he had educated himself, and my mother was a school teacher, and she also educated herself. It was quite interesting; when my young brother and I got to Cambridge years later, we found that my father and mother, and my mother's sister, were all matriculated students of Cambridge University, because when they went to the university it was part of Cambridge, before it became the University of Tasmania. That's how my father happened to be the first Master of Arts of Tasmania University.

But I grew up in this scholarly environment, and he came over here and taught at the Melbourne Church of England Grammar School, and then he became the sub-warden of Trinity College in the university. He was a classical and English scholar, and a most gifted teacher, as many of his students have always maintained.

My mother was a gifted linguist, and she was an example of somebody who had no qualification on paper. She'd been a teacher in Tasmania before registration came in, and when it did they offered her registration and she said, oh no, she was happily married, and her husband had a job, she needn't be registered. And then, just as the 1930 depression started, my father died leaving her with very little money, as an impecunious school master would do anyway. So there she was, she had no qualification on paper, and I always use her as an example of the need to get something on paper.

She and her sister opened a cake shop and, as a result, at home we had housekeepers, we took in boarders, all male, and I was the only female around about the place. And it's a reflection of the social history of the time, I think; on looking back I realise that this probably had quite an effect on my progress in the university, which was variable, because if the housekeeper got sick, or we changed housekeepers, I was the one who missed lectures and practical work and stayed at home to keep the ship afloat as it were; the boys were never expected to give up any part of their studies. And I think this had really quite a profound effect on my later career.

I may say that my mother was a great model to me of a person with terrific courage, terrific guts if you like to call it that, and she put the three of us through the university. My elder

8 brother had just started, my young brother was eleven and still at school, and I was still at school, and yet she put us through and made that sacrifice, which was extraordinarily marvellous I think.

So she was a model, but I suppose I really had lots of models. D J Ross - Dorothy J Ross - who later was the headmistress of the Melbourne Church of England Girl's Grammar School, she taught me and inspired me to become a botanist and a geneticist. She brought Mendel's laws back from England round about 1920 - never been taught in any schools here - and she taught them to us and had us absolutely fascinated. So it was she who encouraged me to take up teaching and, curiously enough, at the time I did my teacher's training course, she had given up her teaching job at the school and had taken over this training institute. So I was double lucky, I had her there. And then later, when she became headmistress of the school, I had much to do with her until her death in 1982 at the age of 92. I was privileged by her to ask her to write the forward in the book about her by June Epstein.

Well, that background, I think, helped perhaps towards the three A's. I was encouraged always to follow scholarship. Mind you, I'd lived in a rich, rare academic atmosphere, and I think the WAAAF did me the world of good because it taught me all kinds of things - I'd never even heard of an abortion when I joined the WAAAF.

Another great influence in my life, which I would just like to mention, was that my headmistress at the grammar school, Mrs Kathleen Gilman Jones, at the age of twelve - around about in the 1920s - I was involved in an experiment of hers where she came into the classroom for the whole of this period, once a week, and one of us was appointed the chairman, another one the secretary to take the minutes, and each one of us in turn had to give a lecture of ten minutes. The first series of lectures was on famous women, and I remember I chose Sappho because in my father's classical collection of books there was a book by Professor Tucker on Sappho. But here were we, at the age of twelve, encouraged to take our part in the community, to be a member of a committee, to chair it, to be the secretary, and generally understand the running of committees. And I think that was a wonderful thing to have occurred - far ahead of her time she was, in setting this up.

Whilst I was still at the headquarters doing cypher, I lived in the barracks at Mayfield Avenue Toorak, and the air officer commanding Number 1 Training Group, Group Captain Hulex Hewitt, decided we should do an officers' course, and he supervised us and helped us tremendously with it.

Well, Rosemary George and I used to rush home from work and we'd do this course, and in the end it was so like following a flora of plants - the ABO orders - it was just like reading a flora - and so I topped the course. And then some changes occurred in the WAAAF depot.

We had then the Director of WAAAF, Clare Stevenson, appointed as the Director of WAAAF, and this upset the group of officers who were in the depot. They were all friends - and as I'm a geneticist, I can say this - there was a sort of inbreeding of ideas, and they decided they didn't want to work with this new director, and so they resigned. I think it was a matter of shock, really, when a new director was appointed - and so they resigned. Dave Hawthorn and Nel Rawlins stayed on, and Nel Rawlins became the CO of Number 1 WAAAF Training Depot.

In the meantime, Group Captain Hewitt decided we'd better have a proper dining-in night, and so this was all arranged, and I came home half an hour before the meal was to start, and they announced that I had to be Mr Vice - no Madam Vice in those days, I was Mr Vice - which meant I had to say the grace and keep order. So I shot to my feet to say grace, and as I'd been brought up in a classical family, of course, I said, 'Benedictus, benedicap praesum Christum dominum nostrum, amen' - dead silence - and Rosemary George said, 'Blackie, would you mind deciphering that?'.

Well, this became the custom in the WAAAF; every dining-in night the grace was said in Latin. And I remember one WAAAF ringing me from Sydney over to Perth asking me to spell it out. I often shudder to think how it was said on many occasions, but it went right through the WAAAF, that at the WAAAF dining-in nights a Latin grace was said, which is rather fun looking back on it.

Do you remember your first contact with Director WAAAF?

Yes, I do, very strongly. In characteristic style, the first thing she wanted to do when she took over was to find out what her WAAAF officers were doing, and what background they had. And so my turn came up when she sent for me - this was towards the end of my work with the cyphers - and I went into her office, and the first thing she asked me was, why did I join the WAAAF, and I didn't want to tell her, so I didn't tell her (laughs). However, nonplussed, on she went and talked to me for a little while, then she said to me all of a sudden, 'What do you think of the training of WAAAF?', and I said, 'Well, you know, mate, there is a lot can be done with the training of WAAAF', and so began my switch from signals into training. As soon as I'd finished the cypher job, she sent me out to Number 1 WAAAF Depot to take charge of the training there, then, subsequently, I became the commanding officer of that WAAAF depot.

I remember the day I was to report for duty as commanding officer I developed German measles, which was rather a shattering blow, but I got there a couple of weeks later and I became the commanding officer of Number 1 WAAAF Training Depot.

And you also were promoted to a flight officer on 17 November, whilst you were at Number 1 WAAAF Depot.

Yes. As I took over the commanding of it I was promoted to flight officer, that's perfectly true.

During that period we had many changes in personnel and in the training system too, and we were also asked to work out a system for defending the training depot in the case of air attack.

Now, I was very fortunate because on my staff was an officer known as Tinker Salum, and tinker had been through the Battle for Britain and the evacuation from Dunkirk, and she knew a tremendous amount about defence of buildings from London, and so she helped me work this out. We eventually sent along our report to 1 Training Group and they were absolutely staggered, it was the best report that's gone in, and it was entirely due to Tinker's knowledge of what had been done overseas, that we were able to put that in.

We had WAAAF recruits going through and through, of course, and they did a fair amount of drilling, and we gradually built up little courses on administration and how to use air force orders, and that kind of thing. And by this time we were actually getting uniforms made for them; we actually started off with no uniforms, and then we got to men's uniforms with adjustment. The tailoresses were employed and they adjusted them for the WAAAF, but it meant that they buttoned the wrong way, and this stayed with us right through to the end of the war; all the jackets buttoned the wrong way, even when they were made as WAAAF jackets, and the officers, when they got their suits made, also had them made buttoning round the wrong way, and it stayed as a custom right to the end. That's how it arose.

During this period as training officer at Number 1 WAAAF Depot, we began to take over some of the houses in Toorak as barracks as the numbers grew. The first one we took over was Auron, a beautiful old building and a beautiful grounds in Clindon Road, and it had a huge tower up which I climbed ever night - and I actually slept in the tower room, which was most exciting. One of the things that the WAAAF enjoyed round there was the old motorcar which they called Ermintrude. She had the battery on the running board, and you opened the windows by lifting a leather strap like we used to in the railway carriages.

WAAAF were stationed there and marched round to Mayfield Avenue for their course. We also took over 606 Toorak Road as a barracks, and also Oakdean, a bit further down the road, as barracks.

Now, after I became the commanding officer of Number 1 WAAAF Training Depot in November, we then were faced with a situation. In October the government policy was to stop recruiting of women, and then, later on, in December, Pearl Harbor occurred and panic struck, and we were told to enlist hundreds and hundreds of WAAAF. And D WAAAF, Clare Stevenson, stuck her toes in and wouldn't allow them to be sent in to the air force ranks until they had done a rookies course.

And so first of all we took over St Catherine School in Hangdon Place as an extra spot. This was very interesting to me because later I was in the St Catherine School council for

12 about twenty years, and I remember very well the Watts painting in the hall, which we didn't think anything of at the time, and later it sold for $35,000. It was very interesting to go round St Catherine's as a member of the council, having been the commanding officer there when the WAAAF were training.

However, we still had to cope with the huge influx, and in January of 1942 Clare Stevenson managed to arrange that we took over Geelong Grammar School; while the school was away in the long vacation, we took it over and moved Number 1 WAAAF Training Depot down to there. We had 650 rookies. They arrived by train at Koria Bay, and the Number 1 Training Group had not sent us the required tenders to transport them from the station, and so we marched them in high-heel shoes from the station in their civvies - poor dears.

Well, we equipped them, and we injected them, and we put them all in the barracks. The next morning at 8 o'clock they appeared on the parade ground in perfect formation, and I always remember the headmaster, Dr Darling - later Sir James Darling - I didn't realise it, but he was watching from the cloisters, and when I walked off the parade he said, 'Well, I can't understand it; I couldn't do it with my boys', and I said to him, 'But you don't march your boys from the Koria Station in high-heel shoes'. And so he laughed, and he was a great friend to us; he and his wife were very good to us while we were there, and we were there for three weeks. And I venture to suggest that the school has never been so clean before or after because on panic night we cleaned it from top to toe.

I also possess the air force ensign which was blown to pieces on the flag post, on the mast of the school - flag pole - and which I mended later and all my officers signed it, and it's a great treasure of mine today.

Well, that was a great experiment, and these WAAAF came from all over the country, from all the states, and we had tremendous assistance from the Salvation Army. They came down and Captain Watson was in charge, and she was a wonderful woman. These WAAAF, many of them had lost fiances, husbands, brothers, in the Sydney and the Perth, and the Salvation Army were very, very good to them and comforted them a lot, so much so that at the end of the training course the WAAAF asked me could they take up a

13 collection for the Salvation Army, which they did and gave them quite a considerable sum of money, which was very good.

We carried out the normal training course of drill, and a series of lectures on the air force orders, on equipment, on health - unarmed defence was introduced into the WAAAF training, and this was extremely useful and very expertly taught. And generally speaking it was a good course which gave them an insight into the RAAF to whom they would be posted at the end of their rookies course.

On completion of the recruit training course at Geelong Grammar School, you returned for the next two months to Mayfield Avenue to continue as commanding officer. By this date, Number 1 WAAAF Depot controlled 150 recruit trainees, 200 wireless telegraphists undergoing technical training, and 300 WAAAF receiving trade training - cooks, mess stewards, drill instructors, et cetera - at the WAAAF Training Section at West Melbourne. That was a total of 650 air women. Your staff numbered 227 officers and other ranks. As the air force women's services regulations were not finally approved by war cabinet until 23 March 1943, there was still no legal disciplinary control over these women. How did you maintain discipline?

This was not as difficult as it might appear because to begin with, we had a captive audience. These women who had come in to serve the RAAF were enthusiastic, they had a definite purpose in mind, and they were ready to learn all they could. Then too, of course, they were very keen on drill; it got them in, as it were, and the WAAAF enjoyed very much when they had to march on parade.

It just takes me back for a moment to October 1941 when the very first march that the WAAAF were involved in was organised in the streets of Melbourne. We set off from Exhibition Building, along Spring Street and down Collins Street, along Elizabeth Street and up Bourke Street, the salute being taken in Collins Street. I led the march with assistant section officer Miller as adjutant, and it was quite interesting because being left handed I walked round the left side of the little button at the intersections, and Goody Miller, one pace behind and one to the right, had to go over the top of them, which caused her great

14 concern.

The other interesting thing about that was that I was still wearing the original skirts with a pleat, and all the other WAAAF had no pleats and took a twenty-six inch pace; and we had leading us a Scotty band in kilts, and they were taking about a thirty-six inch pace, and so the inevitable happened. As we turned round Elizabeth Street and started up Bourke Street hill - we had no band, they'd gone round the next corner, so we continued on on our own. But as we passed the saluting base we got a great reception, and I would like to read a letter I received from a group captain, as he was then, Brian Ell, the air officer commanding Number 1 Training Group RAAF, and he writes:

Dear Miss Blackwood, I was on the saluting base today with Air Vice Marshal Wrigley when he was taking the salute of the march-past of our various units, and I therefore had a good opportunity of watching fairly closely the march, discipline and bearing of all concerned. For bearing and general steadiness during the march-past, there was no question ...

END OF TAPE ONE - SIDE A

START OF TAPE ONE - SIDE B

Ray Brown-Ell was a group captain, the air officer commanding Number 1 Training Group of the RAAF, which had under its control our unit, Number 1 WAAAF Training Depot - and he was very good to us too.

Reverting to the problem of discipline, I think we should say that the officers were very well versed in the need for discipline while doing their officers' training course, and they understood very clearly how important it was to have good discipline to add to the efficiency of the WAAAF, and this they passed on to the rookies.

The other point is that the other ranks were entirely unaware of the legal implications, it never entered their heads, and therefore, I guess, this made it a little easier for those in

15 command. Now, the rookie training, as we called it - the training of the recruits - had as its objects - as its training objects - factors that also contributed to good discipline, and these were to give the girls confidence in the service, in their specific job, and give them knowledge of those subjects, to improve them physically, mentally, and spiritually, and to broaden their outlook so that they would be finer citizens when they returned to civilian life. So it was all those things, I think, added towards the discipline, and we really didn't have much trouble with discipline.

Did you have difficulties in obtaining sufficient uniforms and other issue clothing to fully kit each course?

Yes, we did. Of course, in the beginning it was really disastrous because there were practically no equipment for the rookies; in fact, I didn't have a uniform until I'd been in the air force at least six weeks. We wore these dreadful mens' boiler suits with berets, then, when we were equipped, we were equipped with mens' jackets - skirts were made for us, but the mens' jackets were given over to us, and sometimes modified a little. And it meant that till the end of the war we wore our coats buttoning up the wrong way.

Well then, later on things got a bit better until recruiting was stopped just before Pearl Harbor. Then all of a sudden, after Pearl Harbor, the government wanted more and more recruits and, of course, no orders had been lodged with the clothing factories, and we were really stuck. And many times WAAAF went out to their units not entirely equipped, and this was very distressing to them, but it was something that couldn't be foreseen and something that happened because of the cessation of enlisting, and then the re-enrolment coming in again.

Another recollection that I have of that period at Number 1 Training Depot was that we were all asked - all the units were asked - to prepare air-raid precautions and rules for the event of air attack. And so I was very fortunate as the CO because I had on my staff Flight Officer Salum - Tinker Salum she was always known as - who had joined our WAAAF after being in London during the Battle for Britain and the Dunkirk story, and so she knew what was required with air-raid precautions and how one should man the roof, and this kind of thing. And so all day we worked at this and I didn't seem to be writing anything

16 down - she got very impatient with me - and I said, 'Well, you go on leave and I'll write it down', which I did, writing down all she'd told me, and when we sent it in to Number 1 Training Group they were most impressed, they said it was the most efficient air-raid precaution report that they had, and it was entirely due to Tinker Salum's experiences overseas.

It was quite a sad day for me when I was posted to Richmond, New South Wales, as the officer in charge of WAAAF, but, of course, it opened up another field of experience for me in my air force career. I went there, unfortunately, under a cloud because I had fallen getting on to a tram before I left and had a broken leg, so actually, in point of fact, I didn't act as OIC WAAAF, but I spent the next six weeks in Concord Military Hospital recovering from this fracture.

From Concord Hospital I was posted to Headquarters, to the Directorate of Training, to work with the Director of Training, Group Captain Brown. Now, he was an engineer - I had a university degree - and he had been on course with my brother, and he felt that it was necessary to have somebody in his directorate in charge of WAAAF training who had a university degree. I also, of course, had had a fair amount of training of WAAAF recruit depots, and so the director thought it was wise for me to go in charge of all the WAAAF training into the Directorate of Training at Headquarters.

And what was your first work there? Did you plan new programs for recruit training?

Yes. The first thing I did was to think in terms of a training handbook for the recruit depots. We had WAAAF training depots in all states - in Queensland at Sandgate, in New South Wales at Bankstown, in Western Australia at Karrinyup - in Tasmania we didn't have a proper recruit training depot there because we sent them over here to Melbourne, it was handier to do this - and in South Australia there was a recruit depot at Victor Harbour. And Tinker Salum, whom I mentioned before, was sent there in charge of Victor Harbour.

So we had these training depots all around Australia. Alison Hooper was in Queensland, and we got together, the training officers, and we got together and we planned this training

17 book. It was a very good publication really because it included all the ideas and the experiences of these training officers where they were training rookies in quite different situations, and different climates, and so on, and it was very good the way they collaborated with me to produce this handbook. It now is in the Mitchell Library in Sydney and can be referred to at any time, but it covered rookie training from beginning to end.

The rookie course was a three-week course. They came in, they were equipped, they were examined medically, and injected against typhoid and all these various things, and they then learnt all these things that we've spoken of before during these three weeks. Then they always had a pass-out ceremony at the end of this three weeks, and usually, on most training depots, parents and friends were invited for this great occasion when they had a march-past, the CO of the unit, and then they entertained their people and received their posting to go the next day to the station that they were posted to; and this was a great day for most of them.

Did you travel much to inspect other units, or did you do it more mainly from headquarters in Melbourne?

Oh no, I travelled round a lot, partly to be able to discuss this training handbook with the various training officers, but also to bring back ideas to the Directorate of Training on technical training, on the conditions of the WAAAF during their training in technical work. You see, we had them at various technical training stations round Australia too; a lot of them were at Woolloomooloo in Sydney, and out here at Ascot Vale. They were learning things like being a flight mechanic, a ...

Flight rigger?

Flight rigger, yes - and instrument repairers, cinematograph operators - things like this were done at these technical training stations, and I used to go to see whether the WAAAF were coping with them, whether they were happy about it all.

We had at this time, at headquarters, Squadron Leader Naylor who was a psychologist, and he introduced these aptitude tests into the WAAAF, and the director was very interested

18 and very keen about them - I was very sceptical at first until I found how very useful they were. For instance, one day in signals, Flight Officer Rosemary George rang me up and said, 'I have an ACW here who's been posted to me, and she's a very nice person but is not very intelligent, and we are worried for fear somebody can get secret information from her - she is here making up these cyphers in a secret room - so do you think you could do something about it?'.

So I went to Squadron Leader Naylor and we got out her aptitude test. Now, from the point of view of general intelligence, she was only about halfway on the paper, but from the point of view of practical aptitude she was right off the paper the other end, and she had tremendous abilities in practical aptitude. So I began to look into her background and I found that she'd been a tailoress. So we needed a tailoress out at the WAAAF Training Depot, to alter uniforms and so on, so we had her posted out there, and she was no longer a danger to the signals, and she also was very happy being a tailoress and was very, very useful.

Another example I found was at Bankstown, and here the OIC WAAAF - and this indicates how much on the ball the OIC WAAAF were, they watched for these sort of things - and she told me that she had a mess woman who she thought was very bright, and she shouldn't be a mess woman, she should be able to use her brain a bit better. And so we sent for this lass, and we also got her aptitude test out, and here again, the intelligence part - which is mostly general knowledge, of course - was not very good, but the practical aptitude was alarmingly good. So I talked to this lass, and she had lived in the country in Queensland, she had been sent down to school in Brisbane, and then the depression had hit the family and she had been taken away from school. So she had no opportunity to really take up any profession or any occupation at all. So when she came to enrol in the WAAAF, the only thing she felt that she could do was to be a mess woman.

Well, I immediately rang Melbourne and I rang Squadron Leader Rosenthal who ran the cinema-operating courses because this lass was very interested in machinery, she loved motorcars, and she like tinkering round with clocks, and all kinds of things like this. And I managed to get her on to the cinema-operators' course, and she topped the course and became one of our most valued members of that team. So that I was then, of course,

19 convinced that there was something in aptitude tests; I think it was quite significant that the director and her four wing officers, none of them had ever done an aptitude test.

And did every air woman do an aptitude test when she went through recruit centre?

Yes; and there was always a special one designed for officer intake and each officer had to do it.

I remember when these experiments were started very early in the piece, and at the university there was a psychologist who told Group Officer Stevenson that if he could test the officers to see if they were any good. So we were called up to go along and we were given these questions on paper, and we were told to do this, that and the other. And I always remember that one of the questions was, 'What is your greatest ambition?', and I put down, 'To drive a car along a precipice on two wheels'. Another question was, 'I prefer reading?', and I put, 'To washing up'. So the director sent for me afterwards and she said, 'You've come out a moron; what do you mean by answering these questions in this way?', and I said, 'Well, Madam, would you want your private thoughts about what your ambition was to be read by all and sundry in the Directorate of Training? because I wouldn't'. And so she understood the situation.

The other point was, they would throw a squashed-ink diagram up on the wall - was it a Rorschach or something like this? - and every one of them, of course, to me was a dissection of an animal, and so they decided that I was moronic. But those sort of tests were soon replaced by Squadron Leader Naylor's which were much better.

And the RAAF had these same tests, didn't they?

They adopted them.

It wasn't only just for the WAAAF.

No, they adopted them after we showed that they were ...

Did they?

Yes - I think I'm right in saying that - well, perhaps they had them for aircrew - no, I wouldn't be certain about that.

Were you responsible for the organisation of officer training as well as for recruit training?

Yes, I was. Once again, collaborating with Doris Carter and Gene Lawson - and of course, with D WAAAF - we worked out the officer training. It was held in the university, the impending officers were housed in Queen's College, and the men were trained in Trinity, so I had quite a lot to do with both actually. I gave two lectures to the course, to the RAAF course as well, on secrecy and security, and on the WAAAF, to get them acclimatised to the idea that they would have WAAAF on their stations.

This was very successful. As a matter of fact, years after the war was over, people would meet me and say, 'You lectured to me in such and such a course in Trinity', which was quite alarming. However, the WAAAF officers' course was a very comprehensive course, determined a lot by Clare Stevenson, of course - she knew what she wanted her officers to know. In fact, the Director WAAAF considered the officers to be her very special part of the WAAAF, and knew them all very well indeed, and watched their training with great interest.

One of the fascinating things about the officer training is that we used to take them on a bivouac. The men were absolutely staggered at this, they didn't do anything like this - not at first - but we used to take them for three days up near Launching Place with the minimum of equipment - a tent or just a fly; and an axe, a spade, for a group; dehydrated food; pills that you put a lot of water with and made them soup, or put a little water and made them rissoles - that kind of thing. And they had to learn to pitch a tent, and they had to learn to make a camp bed. The object of all this was that if the Japs did land on Australia that they could perhaps take the women and children into the bush and look after them if they were given a bit of transport.

I may say that I became known for having said, in one moment when I was teaching them how to make a camp bed, I said there are three mistakes you can make in a bed - and I went down in history as having said it, a little unfortunate. However, these were excellent courses, very rudimentary but the basics of caring for yourself away from civilization, were followed through. And Clare Stevenson always came to have a look at the bivouac, and to talk to people. We never posted officers away or placed them until the bivouac was over; it told us a great deal about the individuals and their capabilities, and their ingenuity, and so on, so that we were able to put them into positions where they would be - the environment that they would be most suited to. And this, I think, was a very forward-looking thing, and they enjoyed it.

Whereabouts were the bivouacs held?

They were held up in Launching Place, and we were allowed to camp on the Conabair Estate up there, near to Warburton - lovely spot really, with a little creek running through. They used to have to go on a track, do a walk round and find their way back, and so on and so forth. I always remember, we suddenly saw one group emerging from the bush with a stretcher and somebody on the stretcher, and we got really terribly worked up, we thought somebody had been hurt; but no, they practised a casualty in the bush (laughs) and so they made the stretcher out of the bush and carried this lass in on it. It was really very interesting, especially as her air force hat was decorated with all sorts of branches to make her look attractive.

And how did the women fit in to Queen's College? Was there opposition from the students?

No; you see, the student number was reduced during the war because many of them had enlisted, and so the student numbers in the college to start with were a little less, so they were able to accommodate the WAAAF officers. The number, I think, would be somewhere about twenty-five on a course, so that's really not so difficult to accommodate in a college when your numbers are down, and, in fact, the colleges welcomed having people there.

I just thought this was the first time that a university college - Melbourne University college - had gone coed.

Oh, yes, that's probably quite right; yes, that's probably right. It worked very well anyway, and it was during this period actually ... that ...

Also at the university, on November 15, 1942, a most significant parade was held. It was the largest parade of WAAAFs ever held in Victoria, and they numbered 2,500. Now, this parade was held especially to welcome Lady Gowrie as the new commandant, the air commandant of the WAAAF.

I had been asked by Clare Stevenson, the Director WAAAF, to organise this parade, and it was at a time when the Sydney and the Perth had been sunk, and the director wished it to have a semi-religious content. So my first job was to go to all the padres - and I'm not exaggerating, but it took three weeks to organise to get them to agree - and in the end they agreed, provided no padre was on the field and that the Director WAAAF exhorted everybody to pray, each according to her own belief - I must say, having a bishop uncle helped a little in this arrangement.

However, we eventually got permission to hold the parade - and it's a very interesting thing, but there are only five hymns which are common to all denominations, and they are very dirgeful - 'Nearer My God to Thee', 'Lead Kindly Light', 'Abide With Me' - rather doleful hymns for WAAAF to be singing. But they sang them manfully, and I remember saying to them, 'Now, if by any chance the band plays a verse short, or a verse too many, what will you do?', and they said, 'If too many we'll go back to the first verse'; and sure enough, the band played one more verse than there should be in 'Lead Kindly Light', and they manfully went back and sang the first verse over again - which I thought was very good.

Now, they came up to the university with their boxed lunches and they had lunch there; they marched from Flinders Street Station up, and a lot of them had come from the WAAAF rookie depot and had had injections, so we were watching them very carefully. And so when we got them out on the parade ground, I invented a new order; after saying 'stand easy' I said 'sit easy' and they sat down on the ground - it was summer time - waiting

23 for Lady Gowrie to arrive.

And when she arrived there was a guard of honour waiting to welcome her and for her to inspect, and playing for the inspection was the headquarters drum and fife band - they were marvellous. They'd formed at headquarters and they used to practice every week, and they were very keen. I didn't know anything about them, but D WAAAF rang me up and said, 'Blackie, there's a drum and fife band at the WAAAF headquarters here; see if you can use them'. Well, I knew they couldn't play loudly enough for the whole parade, but I thought, now, they could play while Lady Gowrie inspects the guard of honour.

And sure enough they did. But I went down to hear them first and they had seven tunes, and I said, 'Well, now supposing the inspection of the guard lasts longer than your seven tunes, what will you do?', and they said, 'Well, we'll play pom-didly-om-pom and we'll go back to the first one again'. I said, 'Good; and what if it's short?', and they said, 'Well, we'll just play pom-didly-om-pom on the drum and that'll be it'.

Well, can you imagine my amazement when one of the tunes was 'Roll Out the Barrel', and I can see D WAAAF and Lady Gowrie trying to accommodate their inspection step to 'Roll Out the Barrel', it was a lovely sight.

The air officer commanding - once again, Ray Brown-Ell - was so thrilled with the drum and fife band that he went specially over to congratulate them at the end, and they really were very good.

Lady Gowrie addressed the parade and in her address she spoke to those on parade as part of a body of 13,000 WAAAFs working with the RAAF all over Australia. Because of their service, she said, thousands of men were now in air force crews as pilots, gunners, and observers, who would otherwise have been chained to typewriters, teleprinters, telegraph keys, orderly rooms and kitchens. After referring to the splendid work of the air force she said, 'I know you have given up a great deal to join the service: the comfort and freedom of your home life and perhaps well paid civil jobs. I know you must get tired, and at times bored, doing one of those routine jobs that never seem to vary from day to day, but whenever you feel like that, you will think of the air force's proud motto: Per ardua ad astra

- Through hard work to the stars. And remember that it is through you and your hard work that our great bombers and fighters are able to go up among those stars, and into the skies to fight and conquer our enemy in the air. While,' she concluded, 'we are living in stirring times, yours is a great service and a great calling. I know you will be worthy of it and worthy of the many who have given their lives for it. Honour them and in every way honour your service.'

Lady Gowrie was a devoted air commandant, she took a great interest in all the WAAAF were doing, and frequently visited units to talk to the air women.

While I'm talking about this parade, I should emphasise that we modified the marching technique, somewhat, of the WAAAF. Clare Stevenson, the director, was very keen that the posture of the women shouldn't be exaggerated and wrong for their physiology as it were, and so we took a twenty-six inch pace - partly to accommodate the lack of material in the skirts, but still, it was really to make it a comfortable stride for women. The swing was not right up to the shoulder, but to a halfway point which looked just as effective and didn't strain the women, and at this parade we invented, as I said, this order 'sit easy' so that they were able to sit down to wait for the official party to come along.

In this particular parade they marched six abreast. Usually in the air force you marched three abreast, but to accommodate them and not make the march-past too long, they marched six abreast. And all the photos that we have of them show their perfection in marching, and also the enjoyment on their faces.

As well as you visiting all the units around Australia, you also brought in the senior WAAAF training officers to headquarters in Melbourne and spent several days discussing method and promotions for air women and other problems.

Yes, this was most necessary really, especially as the conditions of the war changed so rapidly, particulary up north, and it was very good to have these WAAAF officers from all the training units in to discuss the problems, and they were able also to discuss them with the director who would come to the meetings occasionally when she had time, and they could ask her any questions and tell her what was going on. And this was an extraordinarily

25 useful collaboration between the training officers and myself, and between us and the director. This was particularly useful when we were writing the handbook too because instead of my just talking to one of the training officers about a thing, when we were all together we all pooled our ideas and came to the best conclusion. So that these were indeed very valuable meetings.

Of course, we had our funny moments in these training units. I always remember going up to Sal Hooper - Flight Officer Hooper - at Sandgate, and when she saw me she said, 'Blackie, take that shirt off, you can't wear a shirt as badly laundered as that is in front of my WAAAF'. And so she got her mess steward to take over my shirts, wash them with stone, and starch them so stiffly that they cut my neck (laughs). But her WAAAF were expected to wear shirts that would literally stand up on their own - it was very interesting in their different conditions. In Western Australia it was so hot and humid there that we used to have to wear two shirts a day, and that was quite a job, keeping up with the laundry.

A sideline job that I had was given, by Director WAAAF while I was in the Directorate of Training, was to accompany Flight Officer Burnett, the daughter of the chief of the air staff, known as Bunty Burnett - she was not the chief of the air staff. And we were sent to Tasmania, to the recruiting depot there - although we didn't actually recruit anybody, but we were attached to the recruiting depot in Hobart. We were sent to create a good impression because the fifth column had been at work in Tasmania, and reports had come back that the WAAAF were always drunk, half of them were pregnant, and that they weren't well behaved people at all.

And so Bunty and I went over and we were invited, for instance, to Government House, to dinner - and I think we behaved ourselves while there. But it was really very interesting because Bunty was a teetotaller and didn't drink at all, and so we would decide before we went to any occasion whether I would drink or whether I would be teetotal too - it depended. If we were going to a party where there were nearly all men, I would drink; if we were going to a party where there were a lot of women who had heard these glorious stories, I would be a teetotaller.

And we had a very happy time for about a week, and home we came. I understand that

26 conditions did improve a little after that. It was really quite a curious job to be sent on, and very enjoyable too.

Did anybody discuss with you these rumours?

Yes.

Whilst you were in Tasmania?

Oh yes, they did. Somebody said to me that there were a hundred WAAAF at Laverton - they'd heard there were a hundred WAAAF at Laverton - and that ninety-nine of them were pregnant, and I thought that she was joking; and I said, 'Well, what happened to the other one?' - but they were perfectly serious, they'd heard these things. Oh yes, it was ...

And how did you cope with that?

I met this sort of thing also later on the Trans-Australian Railway, when I went across to have a look at the training in Perth - I met the same sort of thing. People would tell me terrible tales about the WAAAF which I knew were not true at all - they were preposterous anyway - that one about the WAAAF at Laverton - even on the law of averages it wouldn't be that, ninety-nine to one.

How did I cope with it? Well, one just had to turn round and give them a true picture of the WAAAF. And here I was a little lucky because I was brought up by a classical father who brought me up on Cicero's orations, for instance; and I knew the value of rhetoric, and the value of exaggerating an occasion. I can remember saying to one woman, 'Now, if you saw a WAAAF coming down the street, the temperature at 103 and a frightfully hot day - you saw a WAAAF - would you know that that WAAAF, in that temperature, had been about to come off duty in the kitchen? She was a cook, she came off duty and she heard an aircraft fly in; so what did she do? Put back her apron and enter that hot kitchen, she went to cook that pilot a meal. Do you ever think about that?' - things like that, and they begin to think round the other way a little bit. But it was a very hard period. There was great fifth column activity both in Victoria - not only in Tasmania - but in Victoria and in the west - I

27 didn't actually meet any in New South Wales because I wasn't in New South Wales much - but in the west, and in Victoria and Tasmania, I met a lot. And this was one of my jobs in the war.

I think it was a fortunate thing that I appeared to be unconscious about all these political things, but I was able sometimes to turn the situation around a little bit. As I say, it was made-up rhetoric really.

Yes, the rumours were also very bad in Townsville on one occasion.

Were they?

Yes - and D WAAAF believes that they were deliberately started by perhaps Japanese or by enemy agencies. Do you believe that or do you think that they were mainly malicious rumours?

Oh, I'm sure there was some deliberate starting of it, as a war effort against us; but how, I never found out. There also was, of course, malicious beginnings. For instance, I think we traced one at one time to a person who had been turned down for the air force, and this, of course, could cause a lot of rankling and it came out in this way. But there must have been some deliberate effort somewhere because it really became so rife at one period. Of course, we know that things like this move on pretty fast once they are put into the community, but it was strange to me because the average Australian was so very much behind the war effort; they didn't approve of it, of course, but they were behind the war effort.

But I must say too that in the beginning, when we were first at the WAAAF Training Depot, and first about, there was a lot of opposition to our being in the service, from the RAAF itself at times; and when you look at the rate of promotion that we all got, it was mighty slow; and when you think that the director herself eventually - but when I say eventually, after about four years - became a group captain - group officer, the equivalent of a group captain - but was still paid the daily allowance of a pilot officer. You know, there must have been a lot of opposition for that not to have been straightened out. You can't imagine a man, a group captain, putting up with the allowance of a pilot officer.

That's correct. I understand that the government used to compare the pay with the nursing service, and it was conditioned to the head of the nursing service - who, of course, only had - what? - 2,500 nurses?

Something like that, I think.

And Clare Stevenson had 18,000 at one stage - 28,000, approximately, went through.

Yes.

And so it was a very different proposition, and also she was initiating something that was entirely new - women as ground staff.

Yes. I remember at the fortieth anniversary of the beginning of the WAAAF, Group Officer Stevenson was talking to the dinner - we had a dinner and she addressed them - and she made the statement there that she felt that this unification, this feeling in the WAAAF - this one-ness feeling in the WAAAF - was in part due to the fact that there was so much opposition in the beginning and it welded us together.

And I was very interested at that reunion. Air Vice Marshal Neville McNamara was then the chief of the air staff, and he came and gave the address, and he was very interested in the WAAAF. He came and stayed for lunch, and he talked a lot to them. And he said to me afterwards, 'That spirit in the WAAAF is amazing. I wonder how you could inculcate it into a peacetime service.'. Well, it's quite a different thing, isn't it, in peacetime?

Yes, it was, and I do believe that the opposition did weld us together, that you had to do the job better than the man ...

Yes, that's right.

... that was working beside you.

Yes.

And also that very often you were bypassed for promotion because they kept the NCO's jobs in the hands of the RAAF. On the other hand, I think that after perhaps a couple of years, or two and a half years, that the men accepted the women and, in fact, helped them quite a lot, worked in cooperation with them ...

Yes.

... towards the end. The majority were for us, whereas the majority were against us, I felt, at the beginning.

Yes, I think you are right there - yes, I think that's perfectly right. And Air Commodore, as he was then, Wrigley was a great supporter of us, wasn't he?

Oh yes, he was AMP and he did a lot for us - and also Sir Charles Burnett was the one who really was determined to have women ...

Yes.

... and persisted over about eighteen months to get the WAAAF established, and took an interest in it. After it was established he used to do a lot of - write the minutes and files, and really take a lot of personal action, which was amazing for a man who was chief of the air staff, to be so interested. But then he felt that maintenance was a very vital part of the air force.

The Air Chief Marshal, Sir Charles Burnett, took, as you say, a great interest in us in the beginning, and I well remember how each officer was required to write a personal history for our personal files. Soon after this he sent for us in turn.

I remember well the day I went up to see him. I wore my cap, and had practised long the salute I should give. Squadron Leader Neville Palmer, his personal assistant, announced

30 my presence and told me to go in. I crossed the threshold and saluted to a colossal room, at the other end of which was Sir Charles, searching in his desk for something, quite oblivious of my salute. The predicament I was in can scarcely be imagined: would I salute again when he looked up or would I take it as red? I took it as red when he suggested I should sit down; then he began.

'Well, I have read your very long and imposing history - mm', and then he asked me what I was doing. And having been so well schooled in secrecy and security by Wing Commander Berry, I would not tell him; I just said I was in cypher. At last he chuckled and said, 'Yes, well, I see you have learnt the first lesson of security very well - most important'. Then he went on to say that my job was most important and I must put every available effort into it. He could not overemphasise its importance, the fact that I later, when the Japanese Government declared war, was to know all too well. The interview was soon closed by this man of action, breadth of vision and great efficiency. He made me feel that he thought my work so important that neither he nor I must waste any more time in chatter, a grand impetus to a junior officer engaged upon such work. I felt I had been in the presence of a great man and a chief who would always have my most loyal support. Thus he supported the WAAAF.

The Director of WAAAF did the same sort of thing in asking us to be interviewed by her with our histories in front of her. I can well remember how she and I summed each other up unobtrusively, and before long I realised that here was a leader who would always say what she thought, had progressive ideas, and to whom one could say what one thought. In fact, very soon the veneer of an interview had worn off and a man-to-man discussion followed.

She commenced the interview by asking me why I joined the air force, and of course, I did not give her the correct answer. But from then on honesty and ...

END OF TAPE ONE - SIDE B

START OF TAPE TWO - SIDE A

Would you please describe the visit of Mrs Roosevelt to the WAAAF?

Yes, certainly, it was a most exciting day. Round about September 1943 the director was asked to put on a show for Mrs Roosevelt, and at first a parade was thought about and therefore she asked me to organise it. And then we decided that we would bring WAAAF in to headquarters to show her the type of work that they did. And so, first of all, we were to produce a guard of honour which was composed of senior NCOs in the service who were doing different musterings, so that Mrs Roosevelt could talk to them and get an idea of the musterings that were in existence in the WAAAF.

And then we had three rooms in which the WAAAF were carrying out their everyday duties and she could see what they were doing. They brought in some of the flight riggers, and we had clerks general, and various other musterings where she could talk to them. And then, when that inspection was over she was to be escorted across to the air force mess for lunch.

Well, she was due at eleven, and the Air Member for Personnel, Air Commodore Fred Lucas, was to meet her with Clare Stevenson at the gate, and then she was to inspect the guard. Well, at about twenty minutes to eleven suddenly three cars drew up at the gate - and across the road from the gate was Squadron Officer Carter arranging the guard of honour, to march it into the entrance so that she could inspect it - and here they were out on the gate. And they flung up to the entrance, out stepped Mrs Roosevelt, with the general, and all the GIs with their guns and things around.

Well, just before this Clare Stevenson and I were inspecting the route to see that all was well, we looked out the window and we saw the cars pull up. And she said to me, 'Blackie, reverse the program', and we just flew to the front gate to meet her. And as she stepped out, the general looked at his bit of paper and he said, 'This, Madam, is the Director of WAAAF, Group Officer Stevenson; and this, Madam, is the Air Member for Personnel, Air Commodore Lucas' - and this was me; he was still sitting in his office, of course, not due until five to eleven.

Well, we started to walk towards the rooms where the girls were, and I excused myself and rapidly shot over to Doris and said, 'Put the guard in the reverse order and we'll do you last'.

And then I met Fredie coming round - Fredie Lucas coming round from his office - and he was a bit startled to find that she'd already arrived and gone ahead, so he and I went to catch up with the official party, and the GIs wouldn't let us. They stopped us and we had to persuade them that we really were authentic and that we could join Mrs Roosevelt - which we did.

Well, everything went along merrily, she talked to the WAAAF in their rooms, but of course, she was arriving twenty minutes earlier at each point. And I had to somehow get hold of the driver in the car and get them to go round and pick her up at the right gate at the end of the show.

Well, she really was marvellous. She spoke to almost every WAAAF who was there, and particularly she spent a lot of time with the guard of honour, and she asked them questions like this: 'What did you do in civilian life which fitted you for this mustering that you now occupy?' and, 'Are you married?', 'Have you home responsibilities?' - all kinds of questions she asked them concerning their civilian life particularly, and also concerning their service life.

And so off we went to lunch at the air force headquarters, and when I told Air Commodore Lucas what had happened at the gate, he thought this was a great joke and he said that he'd very much like to swap jobs with me for the day. However, during the conversation at lunch time, the director discovered that Mrs Roosevelt was to be received at the town hall, and that there was no guard of honour to receive her. And so she asked Air Commodore Lucas could I go to headquarters and find a guard of honour.

So I rang up the commandant of headquarters, Wing Commander Radford, and I said I wanted fifty WAAAF, weighing about nine stone, and not less than five feet five inches tall. So he said, yes, I could have them, and he would send them down to outside the Botanical Gardens and I could line them up, and he would provide transport, and they could be the guard of honour at the town hall. So we did this and we had a very nice guard of honour, and they went off to the town hall and they acted in that capacity.

Next day the air commodore sent for me and he said, 'Blackie, you did headquarters a great

33 service yesterday; the men had to work hard because not only your fifty WAAAF who stood even for the guard of honour took the day off, but so did all the rest', which I thought was very far sighted of the WAAAF that they managed to think that out for themselves, and they took the day off too.

So it really was an exciting visit, Mrs Roosevelt's, and anybody who met her was tremendously impressed with the intensity of purpose, with the breadth of vision - she really was a most wonderful woman, and it was a great privilege to meet her, and the WAAAF who did felt this very strongly.

Had you been preparing for some time for the exhibition? What did you actually show?

No, we hadn't been preparing, it came rather suddenly. In fact, as Clare Stevenson said in her minutes, she said, 'We've been called upon suddenly to present a WAAAF show to welcome Mrs Roosevelt', and the first thought was, of course, a parade, but she'd been to so many parades we felt she'd like to see the WAAAF at work. And so we asked for them to come down from various units and to show what they were doing there.

This time the WAAAF had been accepted in many technical musterings and so we were able to bring them in to demonstrate them, such as parachute folding, instrument repairers, flight mechanics, flight riggers, and cypher - people working in cypher - meteorological assistants, and various other technical musterings we were able to demonstrate.

During my posting to headquarters I worked a great deal with Squadron Leader Neuman Rosenthal who was in charge of the visual aid section of the RAAF education area. We made films; one for use by the WAAAF; one particularly was called 'From Peace to War' showing the transition from a civilian to a WAAAF, and showing what one learnt on a rookies course. Now, this was very useful to show too, the rookies courses as they went thought.

We used other films too in the WAAAF training, both officer training and air women training, which had been made by Rosenthal in his section, and they were very, very useful

34 indeed. He also ran the cinematograph operators' courses and was always very cooperative in including WAAAF on them; in fact, his staff of photographers were mainly WAAAF, and they did a very good job indeed in many ways, both in photography and in documentation of all kinds of events.

Air Vice Marshal Hewitt mentioned the WAAAF cinematograph operators.

Did he?

Yes - of course, they were doing photo-interpretation when he was director of allied intelligence in Brisbane, and he said they were excellent, that they really performed better than the men at this particular type of job.

Oh, that's interesting, isn't it.

It was - and he said they'd been very well trained, and they were devoted to their job, and there was no question about secrecy, that they were better, in a way, at keeping the secrets than the men because the men sometimes liked to be first with the news.

Yes (laughs). Well, I remember on one occasion we flew over to Tasmania in an old Aggie Ansen - took four hours to go across the Strait - and then lying on our stomachs in the body of the aircraft, with a hole in the bottom, we took moving pictures for a film of the routes that the boys training at Western Junction - what was it, 2ETS or something? - one of the Empire Training Scheme units - these boys had to fly in a triangle, across country, and come back to Western Junction. And so we went over the course and took pictures of it so that they could then check to see whether they had actually passed over that area. This was really quite exciting.

Squadron Leader Rosenthal had a terrific imagination and a great knowledge of the art of cinematography, and his contribution to the training of both RAAF and WAAAF was considerable.

There came the day when I was posted from headquarters to take over as the commanding officer of Number 1 WAAAF Depot, which had now moved to Lorundle in Bundoora. I went with the rank of squadron officer and inspected the location first, of course. It had been used for some little time as a training depot with Squadron Officer Hawthorn and Squadron Officer ...

Bernard?

Bernard - as COs. So I took over in August 1944, and it had been the unfinished psychiatric centre - it wasn't completed, but it was to be used as a psychiatric centre. And so it consisted of groups of buildings, each with a lot of bedrooms in it, and a big lounge in each group of buildings, each area, so it was very suitable for a WAAAF training depot. We had indoor areas to have leisure activities, and also good accommodation.

We were right next door to the Mont Park Mental Hospital, and we used to have quite exciting times with some of these patients coming over to see us. There was one who thought he was Napoleon and always had medals on his coats, and when he would come I would ask him to take the salute of the parade and he was very happy. Then there was another one who came every Friday, regularly, and asked for a leave pass; and the adjutant would parade him into my office, very seriously, and we would give him a leave pass and he'd go away perfectly happy. Next Friday he'd be back for his leave pass.

We had a very good relationship with the people in charge of Mont Park. I remember one day, the superintendent rang me up and said would I mind, as I drove through the grounds in my staff car, would I mind returning the salute of one of his patients. And I said, 'Not at all - I haven't noticed him there', and he said, 'Well, he waits for you and he stands there and gives you a salute, and would you please mind returning it because he expects it', and I said, 'Certainly'. So after that I always looked for this patient who gave me a beautiful salute as I went by. It was really a rather nice relationship, and some of them looked after our garden too - of course, it was a state property.

Well, we had personnel of over 700 on that unit, counting the rookies. We had also based on it a medical training unit where the medical officers posted to the RAAF came to do an

36 administrative course before they went out onto unit. And so it made for a very nice officers' mess; we had great fun.

I always remember the first Christmas Day there, that I was there, and I asked these medical officers would they help me to wait on the air women in the mess, and they thoroughly enjoyed themselves. They had a happy day, and then after lunch we had our lunch and I produced a case of champagne, which the CO of Training Group had sent us. So it was really quite a successful Christmas Day.

It was a very happy unit actually there, and we trained a large number of recruits. We were also a shelter spot for some men who came back from operations and needed a spell. After the first two or three days, when they found the food was so good, they settled in very nicely for their term back on the ground. So we had a very nice area and we also had the assistance of the army from Watsonia; they would come over and see if they could help, and they'd come over and visit our sergeants' mess, and our sergeants' mess would go over to see them.

It was getting quite tame, the war, in a way, at this time - not so much happening, not very much happening - and so we had, as dentist, Flight Lieutenant White - he was always known as Snow White, of course. And he liked making things out of plaster of Paris - he liked to make little sculptures out of plaster of Paris. And then we had, in the medical training unit, we had a young man who thought he was van Gough on painting - and my adjutant was a bit keen on painting too - and so I suppose they put the idea into my head that we should have an art and craft exhibition. Everybody worked hard and they did all kinds of things - took photographs - they could put anything in in the art line.

And about two days before it was to be opened and thought about, my flight sergeant, who was running it, Joy Jones, she came into my room, saluted madly and said, 'Madam, you have put nothing in the exhibition', and I said, 'Haven't I, Flight', and she said, 'No, you haven't'. And I had over on the table in the CO's office a scrubby-looking geranium in a pot, and so I said, 'Bring me some paints and paper and I'll paint that geranium'. I never thought she would, but she did, she brought the paints so I made a very poor attempt at this geranium - and I also put some photographs in, and a few things, after she'd pointed out to

37 me that I hadn't put anything in the exhibition.

Well, it came the night and we had acquired the services of Max Meldrum to judge this art exhibition. Of course, our painter - our van Gogh painter - thought he was going to win it. Well now, I have no idea - Max Meldrum was taken down to the sergeants' mess - I have no idea how many beers they gave him, or how many cases they gave him to take home, but when he walked into the room he walked up to this terrible picture of the geranium and he said, 'There's only one painting in this room worth looking at and that's this', and pointed to the geranium. Well, I could have killed them.

Anyway, there it was and we really had a very happy time at that exhibition. As a result of it I remember Snow White - (he) was the medical officer when I was discharged - and he said, 'You know, you started something with that exhibition,' he said, 'My wife sold one of my paintings for two pounds the other day to the milkman'. Then he explained to me that he'd done a painting of the paddocks where the milkman's cows were, and he'd come to get the money for the bill, and my wife showed him this picture and he said, 'Oh, I'd like that; how much do you want for it?'. And so she said, 'Two pounds' (laughs) and he went away very happy. So he said, 'You see, you really started something'. But it was quite a good experiment and it whiled away quite a lot of time when things were a bit slow.

However, it was a very good training depot, and from there we actually were asked to join in the Second Victory Land March on October 6, 1944, and we took part in this. The march consisted of 3,000 men and women from all the services. Now, the WAAAF provided two squadrons totalling 600 personnel, and leading the RAAF and WAAAF part was our own drum band, our own WAAAF drum band, which numbered something like sixteen WAAAF playing kettle drums and the big base drum - they were most impressive.

Well, the first flight of WAAAF, which I happened to lead, was unique in that it consisted of fifty women, all of whom were wearing three red chevrons on their sleeves indicating three years of service already. The salute was taken by the Chief of the Air Staff, Air Vice Marshal George Jones, and - terrific thrill - forty bomber and fighter aircraft roared overhead as we went past the saluting base. And it was a wonderful feeling to be in that march with those aircraft dipping down and saluting us as we went by.

We also took part in a couple of other marches later on, but that was the really big one that was so impressive, and we all assembled down in Alexander Avenue and walked up through to the town hall where the salute was taken.

We had one exciting moment concerning the windows. We were asked by Training Group Headquarters to put in an estimate of how many windows needed repairing - or in fact, we put in a requisition for twenty windows. And back came a letter from Number 1 Training Group saying that the barracks officer there thought that this was a little excessive in number, to have twenty broken windows. So I got one of the WAAAF rookies who was on sick parade to go round with a pencil and paper and count all the windows, and the number was something like 2,600 windows because in a psychiatric area like that, each three by three window was divided into about twelve little windows, so the number was really quite exceptional. So I had great pleasure in writing back and saying that I thought that the percentage of broken windows was within the limits of possibility, and I heard no more about it.

It was an example though of lack of inspection really. If the barracks officer had come to see the place he would have known that this wouldn't be excessive - see, he'd never been on the unit.

Well, we also had, of course, the RAAF nursing service. The officers - the senior officers - were posted to the medical training unit to do an administrative course and to learn drill because the Dutchess of Gloucester had come to be the wife of the Governor General, and Matron Lang felt that it might be necessary for the nurses - for the matrons - to drill their personnel at some official function. And so all these matrons who'd seen Tobruk, and the Middle East, and all around - New Guinea - they were all posted to Number 1 WAAAF Training Depot, to the medical training unit on it, and they had to undergo this course of drill.

The man taking this was a man called Warrant Officer Shepherd, and he had drilled us in the early days at Mayfield Avenue. Shepherd had been in the guards in England, and he'd never been known to smile on a drill square. And each one of these matrons had to fall in

39 the flight and march them up and down and then dismiss them. When it came to Matron Dunn's turn - she had a quiet, rather high, voice - and so she marched them up and down, and then she came to the point of dismissing them. And so with this ramrod standing beside her - as you know, the order in the air force is to the right to break off - so she stood there and she said, 'To the right ...' and then she hesitated, and with her hand over her mouth she said to him, 'What do I say now? What do I say now?'. And he bent down and picked up a stick on the ground, and he said, in the same sort of veiled way, 'What am I doing? What am I doing?', and she took one look and she said, 'Tear asunder'. So the whole place collapsed; it was the first time that Shepherd himself had collapsed with laughter, and so did the other matrons, and it caused us great fun on the unit.

It was interesting that it was out there - at Lorundle where we were surrounded by beautiful paddocks and the Yan Yin Reservoir Reserve was a little further down the road - that we were able to include bivouacs in the training of the rookies - very simple bivouacs, but they went off and they boiled billies and they learnt to recognise signs in the bush, and so on - and look at the birds. They loved it, they loved going on these bivouacs. But we were able to include this short type of bivouac, just for a day, in their course.

The other interesting thing about Number 1 WAAAF Training Depot is that it became the tailoring centre for most of the units round Melbourne where WAAAF were stationed. We modified the uniforms that came out of the equipment officers' equipment stores, and we had a very skilful team of tailors who performed this function, which was quite interesting - one of the useful functions of Number 1 WAAAF Training Depot.

Well, I think Number 1 WAAAF Training Depot has seen enough of me; we will now move on to my next posting which was in January 1945, to Western Area, as the Staff Officer WAAAF, taking with me wing officer rank.

My job as Staff Officer WAAAF at RAAF Headquarters, Western Area - in St George's Terrace - involved being responsible to the air officer commanding, at first to Air Commodore R J Brown-Ell, and later to Air Commodore Colin Hanna, both very distinguished people - airmen. Colin Hanna later was the governor of Queensland, he'd been three times knighted by the Queen, and was a very distinguished airman.

Well, I was responsible for the WAAAF personnel, for their administration and welfare, on approximately thirty units, including, for example, the radar station on Rottnest Island - it used to be exciting going over there by ship in the rough sea - and the operational base unit at Busselton, deliberator unit at Merredin, and the WAAAF Recruit Training Depot at Karinyup - a very beautiful place which is a golf club, a golf course, and we used the club house as the basis for our training. Then there was Four Stores Depot which acted as the equipment depot for all RAAF units in Western Area, and was most efficiently run by a WAAAF, Flight Officer Watson. I remember when she was doing the stocktaking while I was there, she was thruppence out, handling these thirty RAAF stations with all their equipment problems.

RAAF Station Pearce, the permanent air station of Western Area, played a significant part in air force operations.

At Gilford, the air defence headquarters was stationed, and they had an underground concrete operational unit where all the aircraft flying over would be mapped by the WAAAF - a great number of WAAAF were employed there, and they were on shift work. And it was quite remarkable because, towards the end of the war - the end of '45 - they were there on duty, and perhaps one aircraft - a civil aircraft - would go over each day, and yet they were supposed to be there, ready to plot any enemy aircraft that came over.

I remember taking an English WAAF officer around to see them at this unit, and she was absolutely amazed at the morale and the enthusiasm for the service of these girls, when they had spent so many hours doing practically nothing. And she commented on it more than once, she was really most impressed with the standard of their morale - which is rather nice to hear.

Now, while we were there in Western Area we evolved a scheme of sending food parcels - I think rather inspired by the visit of this English WAAF. We decided we would send food parcels to England, to our sister WAAF, to supplement their food - of course, it was pretty hard on them. And so we sent, first of all, to the Air Chief Commandant, Lady Welsh, the Director of the Women's Auxiliary Air Force at Air Ministry, and we received a very nice

41 letter back from her. She says:

'I have carefully considered the best means of distributing these parcels and I think it would be most satisfactory if you would be so kind as to send them to the WAAF staff officer at each command headquarters - a list of their names and addresses is attached. She will then distribute them, within her command, to the unit where the parcels will be best appreciated. My very sincere thanks, and very good wishes to you. We have just heard the good news of the end of the war.'

So that was an interesting letter to get from her. We also sent some to the Headquarters Flying Training Command in Redding, and we got a very nice letter back from Wing Officer E A M Llewellyn thanking us for sending them. This was an attempt to help our sisters in England.

Now, we lived in Perth; the officers lived in an army mess, curiously, in the Rex Hotel in Hay Street. There were not enough WAAAF officers in Perth, and the RAAF nursing service either - in fact, there were really only about five of us - and so we went in with the army in the Rex Hotel accommodation.

And then the army girls moved away, and a very curious thing happened. The general commanding the army in the Western Area asked my air officer commanding whether I, the WAAAF wing officer, could act as the president of the mess. And so here was I, a president of an army mess. And this was quite significant later on when we came to VE and VP Day. The air women were in various barracks, some of them as far as Cottesloe - but they were very comfortable where they were too.

While I was there - and peace came to the Pacific and the prisoners were released from Malaysia - somehow it lifted our spirits quite a lot to think that these people were relieved and were coming back in to Perth - they came in to Perth, of course, to be rehabilitated medically before they went home. And I always remember, one day I got a message from the air officer commanding, would I go and tell one of my officers, Greta [Menduplay], that she must go home to lunch. So I was curious about this and I said, 'Why, Sir?', and he

42 said, 'Well, her brother has just landed, and he has been a prisoner of war for some years and she doesn't know where he is, and if she goes home to lunch she will meet him'. And so Lieutenant Victor Menduplay appeared in Perth, much to the delight of his family.

When I was out at Gilford with these women, working on the aircraft recognition area and plotting, it occurred to me that these women could occupy some of their time on little courses to fit them for returning to civilian life, because I always felt that being in the air force was a great thing for them in education, as it were - they learnt a lot of skills, but they also learnt, of course, how to get on with people, and this was tremendously important and so they were able to fit into community life. But I also realised that the sort of womanly things that they would be doing in civilian life, they hadn't had much practice at during their service life, and so we ran courses of millinery and floral arrangement, things like this.

We also realised that until their husbands came back, or until they got married, they'd probably have to do a lot of running repairs around the house, and so we published a little handbook, we made a little handbook, of how to put a washer on a tap, how to mend the cistern, and how to mend a roller blind, all kinds of things like this we put into this little book. And it was very, very useful indeed, and the air women appreciated it, and it assisted them tremendously in settling back into civilian life. We felt that was an important part, and I had some very good officers over there who helped me. One particularly, Flight Officer Gene Hutchinson, who had been my training officer when I was at Lorundle in the year before. So we knew each other well, and knew how we worked.

Well, so the job at Western Area became a very interesting one of very varied conditions. I used to go with the air officer commanding around to units, and I always remember the occasion - I wasn't with him this day - but I went down to Merredin, which was the Liberator Unit. And the CO asked one of his officers, Squadron Leader Sparrow, would he show me over a Liberator. So down we went, on to the tarmac - and at this stage the boys were reservicing the Liberators to be off on an operations course - and he found one aircraft where there was nobody up in the flight deck - and he wanted to show me all the controls.

And the Liberator is a very awkward aircraft, it's very heavy and you have to get in

43 underneath through the belly. And the two doors were open and so we got in underneath there. In the bomb bay, directly behind this opening, was an LAC loading bombs - but he didn't know we were there - and so we entered the aircraft and then we tried to get up on to the flight deck. Well, this was alright for Squadron Leader Sparrow because he had trousers on, but I had a skirt, twenty-seven inch pace, and I was expected to leap up onto about a two foot or two foot three high platform, and I just couldn't make it. And all of a sudden a voice from the bomb bay said, 'Get up in there you old bitch' and, of course, he and I both got the giggles and I said, 'Shhh, don't let him know we are here'. So we had a look at the flight deck and we crept away quietly without him knowing I was there. It was an extraordinary coincidence, just as I was trying to get up on to the flight deck.

Well, when we got back to the mess that night, Squadron Leader Sparrow of course was too polite to tell this story, but I realised he was dying to tell it so I said, 'Alright, you can tell it'. So he told the story, and my goodness! - my next week's pay went down the drain in drinks all round the mess, as you can imagine. But worse was to follow because the next day the air officer commanding went down to Merredin and when he got back to headquarters he said, 'Blackie, I heard a story about you', and so round the mess went a shout of drinks again. I really was poor for some considerable time.

Many interesting things happened while I was there, and one of particular interest was the visit of the Duke and Dutchess of Gloucester - he had been appointed the Governor General - and so he came. And the first unit that they were to visit was Pearce, the RAAF station - it was very hot weather actually. And they came out and we went out to meet them, and, of course, the air officer commanding, who was Air Commodore Brown-Ell, he met them first of all, and then the CO of the unit met them. Eventually the Dutchess was handed over to me to conduct round the WAAAF quarters - she was very anxious to see the WAAAF quarters - and the officer in charge of the WAAAF, Section Officer Cronan, and I, took her round; and Section Officer Cronan, of course, described everything that the WAAAF were doing. She was most interested and she really wanted to find out all about them and know all about them. She looked absolutely charming in her WAAAF uniform, in summer type; the buttons had a terrific shine on them, and the air vice marshal stripes looked very good.

She was taking over from Lady Gowrie as commandant?

Yes, she was, she took over from her as commandant. And, of course, she had been - I think she had been the commandant of the English WAAF too - yes, she had, she'd been the commandant of the English WAAF, so she knew a lot about the services, so she was very interested in what we could do. And later on, down at Kalgoorlie, when we went to Kalgoorlie, the commanding officer wanting to put a lot of WAAAF into the hanger where he had flight riggers and flight mechanics, he put - much to the OIC WAAAF's horror, she suddenly found that the clerks from the orderly office were also in overalls on the aircraft. And of course, when the dutchess asked them pertinent questions about what they were doing, they hadn't a clue - which was very stupid of the CO to do that - she was really very knowledgeable.

And the extraordinary thing was that subsequently, in London, when Doris Carter was picking migrants and I was at Cambridge, and there were about five other WAAAF officers in London - we gate crashed really. We saw in the paper that the English WAAF were having a reunion and that the Dutchess of Gloucester was to be the guest of honour. And so one of us wrote and asked could we come along. But worse was to happen. We were all in touch with Lady Gowrie, of course, and so I wrote to her and said, 'I hope you are coming along to the WAAF officer reunion in Lancaster Gate', and it turned out, of course, that she was never a WAAF in England, and here was I gate crashing a countess. So I had great difficulty in explaining myself away, but the English WAAF officers were very sweet and they said do bring her.

Well, it was wonderful that we had Lady Gowrie with us because she knew the ropes. We arrived there, and the awful thing was, I'd lost my leave pass, so to speak - I'd lost my entree card - and the SP on the door escorted me through the doorway to where they were checking over in a card index. Here this person was going through the card index looking for Blackwood, and of course, I wasn't there. And by this time I saw three SPs converging on me, so at the top of my voice I said, 'We're Margaret Blackwood from Australia', and immediately the SPs moved back and the president and the secretary came and welcomed us.

Well, then she said that she wanted us to meet the Dutchess of Gloucester. So I turned to the other five and I said, 'Stick to me and you'll meet the dutchess'. So like a little snake they followed me wherever I went.

My word, those English WAAF, they had everything taped. While we were listening to the speeches, one English WAAF officer came up to me and said, 'Wing Officer Blackwood, Mam?', and I said, 'Yes', and she said, 'Well, Lady Gowrie is standing over by that pillar and she wishes to see you'. So I wove my way over towards that pillar and all five followed me.

So we got to Lady Gowrie and she was so thrilled to see us, and she said, 'Now, you stick to me and I know where the best food is' (laughs). And so we followed her round and we got to the eating place; we all had a very nice supper. And then, with great efficiency - it was Trofusus Forbes who was the D WAAF in England then - and she said to me, 'Now, I'll call you when we want you to meet the dutchess', and with great efficiency, somehow, they cleared a space in the room and I was brought forward to meet the dutchess. The last time I'd seen her was in Kalgoorlie, and she was very pleased to see us all, and I handed Doris on then and the others all met her.

And then Lady Gowrie said she must go home. Now, she lived at Windsor Castle, as you know, and to economise in petrol she and Lord Gowrie travelled on the bus. And she said she was going home by bus, but we were absolutely staggered, we couldn't believe it. So we said, well we'd escort her to the bus, so all we six or seven WAAAF officers escorted her down to the bus and put her on the bus, and she said, 'You must come to Windsor and have a bang-up do' - which we all did on the Sunday afternoon, and they were very good to us.

But the Dutchess of Gloucester was a very charming person, and very, very interested and knowledgeable about the WAAF, and it really was a wonderful thing to have had her visiting the west. She went to Pearce and saw the girls there.

END OF TAPE TWO - SIDE A

START OF TAPE TWO - SIDE B

Identification: No. 4 Tape with Dame Margaret Blackwood, on 4 June 1984.

Following the visit of the Duke and Dutchess of Gloucester to Western Area, it wasn't long before VE Day occurred. And on that evening I was listening to a member of the YWCA talking about her work in the Middle East, and I had two of my WAAAF officers with me to support me. And suddenly we heard all the bells chiming outside, and we knew that something must have happened because we who had connection with signals had expected news to come through of VE Day. And of course, in the west we got the news, in time, before they did in the east; the news broke at 9 o'clock over there whereas it would be 11 o'clock here in eastern Australia. And so the officers kept saying to me, 'Can't we go, Madam? Can't we go, Madam?', and I said, 'Well, not until our speaker finishes'.

So anyway, we excused ourselves from supper and we flew across to the air force mess across the road where they had had a party earlier in the evening. And blow me down, they'd all gone home, so we retired round to our quarters at the Rex Hotel. And as I was then the president of the mess I said, 'Well, I'll open the bar'. So I opened the bar, but what we really all wanted was a cup of tea; so we had a nice cup of tea. And then after a while we realised that things were happening outside, and we looked out the windows and so on, and then we remembered that Air Commodore Brown-Ell had gone off to New Guinea and his wife was alone in Perth. So we went round and spent the evening with her.

Following VE Day, of course, there was to be great celebrations in the city, and a service was prepared of prayer and thanksgiving to be held in St George's Cathedral on Sunday 8 April, to which we all went.

But before this, of course, we had a victory march through Perth, and I was told that only so many could come from each unit. And the WAAAF officers kept ringing me up and saying, 'But how can we choose those? How can we say who's to go and who's not to go?', and in desperation I said, 'Well look, you'd better all come'. So they all come and we upset the march considerably because they had to make room for us, but it was very good because they really enjoyed marching in that victory march.

Incidentally, these officers knew that I was a botanist, and every time they came to Perth they would bring samples of wildflowers that they'd found, which I appreciated very much indeed.

Well, I was there still for VP Day too, and we had a similar march, but perhaps it wasn't quite as exciting because VE Day was really the finish of great hostilities, and VP seemed a second light when it arrived - but we were all terribly excited all the same.

Well, then I was posted, in November of that year, back to Melbourne - as the director said, 'What was the use of having a botanist amongst the WAAAF if she didn't send her to Western Australia for a term of duty?', and that, of course, is what she had done, and I was very grateful because I saw the magnificent flora of Western Australia and became very interested in it.

So back I came to Melbourne and I was posted to Number 1 Training Group following Wing Officer Rawlins, and there I helped in the closing down of various units. The WAAAF barracks were gradually vacated and the houses returned to their owners. The WAAAF personnel had mixed feelings about all of this; they were beginning to realise that they would be leaving the service, and how would they manage in civilian life, and it really was a very interesting experiment for most of us.

When I came out of the service I went straight back, with great joy, to the University of Melbourne and into the Botany School, and I started to think about doing some research and some teaching. But there was no place for me to work; the professor hadn't organised the accommodation for his staff at that stage - because I was discharged in January and I went to the university in the beginning of February, so that the term hadn't started and things were still in the vacation way.

I remember that Dr Ethel McKern was the associate professor of botany and she found a spot on a bench for me with a microscope, and I had a few things around me - bits of equipment - but I needed a chair which was high enough to sit at the microscope, and the only chairs of that kind were down in the library, down on the ground floor, and I was up

48 on the second floor.

I remember going to the lab manager, who hadn't been in the services - and mind you, I'd been a commanding officer, and I don't suppose I'd ever got myself a chair unwittingly, so to speak - or wittingly. And I said to him could I have one of these chairs from the library and he said, 'Yes, you can get it'. It was a great shock to me; I realised I was back in civvies.

And then I was looking out the window and there was nobody to talk to - as I'd been surrounded with people all my life in the air force, the last five years - and I looked out the window and there, walking across the grounds, was my former corporal clerk from Lorundle; and I rushed down those stairs and I just flung my arms around her, and I said, 'Corporal, how wonderful to see you'. She was coming up to enrol in an arts course, and it was like meeting a long-lost friend. It was very difficult to settle back into civilian life for me - and it was for most of us - and it was particularly difficult to settle back into a system where I was just a junior research officer; having been a commanding officer of a unit, it wasn't easy to adapt to it.

I always remember a horrifying experience. We had a technician called Strawn Weatherhead, and he and Kent Hughes were the last two survivors from the prison camp where they were in Malaysia. Some digging was required down in the garden, and I suddenly looked out the window to see the lab manager in a white coat smoking a cigarette, ordering Strawn to dig that soil - and I couldn't believe it. And I rushed round to the professor, who hadn't been away either, and I said, 'Come and look at this; you must stop it', and he said, 'What's wrong with it?'. And it really was a great shock to me to realise just the difference in attitude between a civilian life and a service life.

It was interesting, and the interesting thing too - and I wonder how much this applied to so many other people - that the tremendous experience that we had in the air force, in administration, particularly we women, was never used by our employers when we returned; that they didn't understand that, for instance, I'd been the commanding officer of a unit of 700 people. And my administrative skills that I learnt in the air force were never used until I retired and became a member of the university council, and then they were

49 used. It's extraordinary really, when I think about it; and I wonder how many other people had the same sort of experience when they came into civilian life. It was a terrible waste of - not exactly of talent - but a waste of knowledge learnt in the experience of the war. And I hope that it wasn't all wasted, but it certainly was in my case.

Yes, it wasn't in mine. I, after being married for so long, and then starting work again after seventeen years, I did that job really on the administration I'd learnt in the air force. I had to organise a staff reception officer job at the university, and my instructions were 'we don't know what you are going to do, but do it'. Now, that sounded like Clare Stevenson when I went to Ascot Vale.

(Laughs)

She'd said the same thing - 'I don't know what you are going to do, but just set it up, use your common sense'. And you also learnt how to keep records and make certain that you kept copies of your letters, you had evidence of what you were doing; because as we had difficulty in the first days in the air force with a new position being made in the university with a hundred-year tradition behind it, which meant that all academic staff had to come through my office. It was a big break and you had to prove what you were doing. But so I always say that that's where I learnt how to write minutes, and reports, and generally run an office. And I think probably the same thing happened with a lot of others.

Yes. My experience was used, of course, in the community, in joining groups like Chiropodists International, for instance; my skills of administration there were used extensively, and still are being used. But of course, I was going into a job where administration wasn't required, really, in the general run of things; it was research and teaching and therefore I suppose it wouldn't be natural to try to use these skills.

Wouldn't your knowledge of handling large bodies of personnel be useful in teaching when you had a room full of students?

Oh yes, yes, that's so, but of course, I had taught before I went into the air force. Yes, sure,

50 it did help there considerably, I think. Well, there's no doubt that the experience in the air force was extremely useful. I get fascinated by the ex-WAAAF in the Melbourne WAAAF branch, of which I'm their patroness; and I get absolutely fascinated at what they have done in civilian life, the way they've built up their families - grandchildren are all destined to do something, they are going to see to it - and they have this magnificent drive and this magnificent outlook about things. And they all say to me that they learnt it in the WAAAF, it's due to the WAAAF that they have this feeling of getting their families on. I'm always terribly interested in what they've been doing. Not all of them have had families, but the others who have had good jobs are in responsible jobs, and they've applied the things they've learnt in the air force, there is no doubt about that; it's really quite fascinating to see that.

It's amazing the friendships that have lasted since the WAAAF days, the number of women that turn up for the WAAAF reunions, travel interstate to attend - how many in Melbourne? - was it 2,000? - for the fortieth.

15,000, which is a large body of women.

Well, it is, considering it is so long ago.

And the thing that fascinated me about that was that it was forty years since they did their rookies course, and yet they marched twenty abreast, up that forecourt to the shrine, and gave an eyes right in perfect style, it quite undermined me.

On Anzac Day?

No, at the reunion.

Oh yes, that's right.

On the Sunday they had the service - and the Chief of the Air Staff, Sir Neville McNamara - or Air Vice Marshal McNamara - he took the salute, and I stood beside him, and I tell you, the tears were rolling down my cheeks. I couldn't believe it that after forty years they

51 could stride up there, in perfect formation, in their civvies - some of them had got into their old uniforms, those who could - but it really was a very moving sight indeed. I think there's this unity that's there, this feeling of oneness amongst them, never mind where they've come from or what they are doing. When I go to their meetings of the Melbourne WAAAF branch, it's really fascinating. They help each other so much.

I always remember one ex-WAAAF they found who's husband had deserted her - and she had four kids, I think - and they unobtrusively provided her with furniture and clothing, and so on, and they invited her to their Christmas party as one of them. There was no sense of charity or anything else about them, it's just somebody's in distress, let's give them a hand, and they are one of us, which is very good indeed. I admire that spirit tremendously.

They do have a service part of the Air Force Association, don't they, in which they contribute - am I right there? - that they do contribute money if people are in need.

Yes, the WAAAF branch itself has a fund which they use for this purpose, and the Air Force Association itself has a fund too.

It's dreadful that the women have not been able to get war loans for homes.

Look, we are still writing. Those WAAAF, particulary, they've written, and written, and written, to each minister as they come into office, and they really have tried. Alma Campbell has done a wonderful job in this regard; she has just stuck at it like a ferret, but we just can't get anywhere at all. It's too late for us now, but you never know, it should be on the statutes that we are eligible anyway. But there was nothing more galling than to find, as many of us did, that the men who hadn't even been away overseas were getting great sums of money to start.

Summing up, here is a poem written in 1961, and it was discovered by a member of the present service while she was searching through some wartime files and boxes in the barracks store at Number 1 Stores Depot. It shows the feeling, the general feeling, of WAAAF on demobilisation. It's called 'They'll Miss Us'.

They'll miss us when we're gone and huts are bare, And the gardens grow rank for want of care, When our barracks stand like a ghost in the night, With windows all black for want of light. And the compound is silent, calm and still, As a shadow cast on a lonely hill.

For that is all of the WAAAF that will remain, Just their shadow cast on life's vast plain, Where the years must roll like mists away, Until memory dims of that long-past day, When women worked like men arrayed, And mustered with them on each parade.

'twas a strange old life, and it had its charm, And it did for most, more good than harm. So at last most left it sadly, Though many there were who left it gladly. But none will forget their service years, The panics, their mates, or the fun and tears.

Thank you Dame Margaret for being so generous with your time over the last two days.

It's a great pleasure.

END OF TAPE TWO - SIDE B - END OF INTERVIEW