(ASSEMBLY.] and American authorities, and they dealt launches, but the uses of liquid Petroleum both with the quality of the gas and the gas today are so wide they are a story in safety of this liquid Petroleum gas. themselves. Difficulties were experienced, first of all Liqud petroleum gas is used at present in finding containers for the distribution for domestic cooking; water heating; of the gas to country centres. The right space heating; lighting, as a supplement type of steel for the making of these con- to enrich normal gas supplies; heat treat- tainers was not available in large quanti- ment of metals, including soldering, braz- ties, but this difficulty has now been over- in~g, flame hardening,.-steel-cutting, non- come. Anybody who likes to go along High ferrous metal welding, and bright alloy Road can see the distribution centre for annealing; vitreous enamelling; ceramic liquid petroleum gas, and they will see how baking; textile singeing and drying; food enormous it has become. processing; farm application, including Tn 1956 there were only three regular tobacco curing, weed eradication, and crop users of this product. They were, country drying; lighting of marine buoys and homes, launches, and caravans. The owners coastal lighthouses; fuels for internal com- of launches and caravans found that they bustion engines: fertilisers, particularly could carry with them some of the com - ammonia; manufacture of methyl alcohol; forts of home in the form of gas-operated formaldehyde; carbon black; blending appliances. agents for motor and aviation fuels; and production of electricity. The record of safety in America, with regard to liquid petroleum gas, has been members can realise that if we keep the found, over the years, to be exceptionally present provision relating to odour in tbe good. Of the types of gas which are used- Statute it will be an embarrassment to the liquid petroleum gas has a lower fire risk development of our liquid petroleum gas than either natural gas or coal gas. industry. Cracked refinery gases provide a source for the liquefiable gaseous fuels It was found necessary to incorporate a propane and butane, the domestic and in- certain chemical known as ethyl mercaptan dustrial uses of which are developing into the gas, which is odourless. By put- rapidly. ting the chemical into the gas it was This amendment will permit gas to be possible to smell the gas and this, of course, sold without an odour for some industrial was an extra safety measure; and the Act and commercial uses. In fact, that is provided that the liquid petroleum gas the purpose of the Bill. Members will should have an odour, and that is the appreciate how important the amendment subject of the amendment which is sought is and the scope for expanding the many this evening. fields of industry that will be thrown open. Liquid petroleum gas is more efficient in I can see the importance of this amend- terms of British thermal units than coal ment to the State in the future by the gas or natural ,gas. Its British thermal development of the uses of liquid petro- unit rating is 3,125 a pound as against 475 a leum gas. I have much pleasure in sup- pound, which we insist on in our ordinary porting the Bill. coal gas. The incorporation of the aroma- Question put and passed. producing ethyl mercaptan into the gas Bill read a second time. has become an embarrassment. In the Eastern States, where this provision is not In Committee, etc. incorporated in the legislation, we find Bill passed through Committee without embarrassment has not occurred in the debate, reported without amendment, and manufacture of certain propellants used in the report adopted. some of our petrols. Members have no House adjourned at 10.1 p.m. doubt heard of butane boosted petrols which are reputed to make a motor vehicle fly along the road. It is found that to a certain extent we are prohibited from preparing such pro- i~j~~txu Arnwmbh;l ducts because, when this chemical is in- Wednesday, the 11th September, 1968 cluded in petroleum it produces a smell which immediately detracts from the value of the product and is of no competitive The SPEAKER (Mr. Guthrie) took the use. Chair at 4.30 p.m., and read prayers. The various uses for liquid petroleum gas QUESTIONS (52): ON NOTICE have expanded considerably. Originally it PEDESTRIAN CROSSING was used only for heating homes, especially Guildford Road country homes. It may be of interest to recall that the Minister for Local Gov- 1. Mtr. HARMAN asked the Minister for ernment was one of the first to have liquid Traffic: gas installed in his home in Geraldton in In view of the fact that a large 1956 for the purpose of heating. I have shopping complex is now under already referred to its use in caravans and construction in Guildford Road, (Wednesday. 11 September, 1968.] 1021

Maylands, between Ninth Avenue It is quite possible that a num- and Falkirk Street. what arrange- ber of members do not know what ments are to be made to ensure this disability is. If you will per- pedestrian safety for those cross- mit me, Mr. Speaker, I will give a ing Guildford Road in this area? brief explanation. Mr. O'CONNOR (for Mr. Craig) re- A dyslexic suffers from a form plied: of language disability which shows The attention of the Main Roads itself in reading and writing. Department has not previously Words appear to have no meaning been drawn to this development. for him. Four boys seem to be However, any pedestrian problem affected to each girl. There are which emerges will be investi- few known severe cases in the gated. metropolitan area, and most of these are in the process of over- coming their disability. KING'S PARK BOARD Five-year Plan SUPERPHOSPHATE 2. Mr. LAPHAM asked the Minister for Demurrage Lands: 4. Mr. McPHARLflJ asked the Minister (1) Dloes the Government intend to for Railways: implement, in whole or in Part. In reply to questions on the 20th the recommendations of the and the 27th August, he stated King's Park Board as set out in "that the information was being the board's second five-year plan? extracted and would be made (2) If "Yes," in part, will he indicate available as soon as possible." which recommendations will be Is he now able to table in the given priority? House all the information re- Mr. BOVELL replied: quired- (a) in those questions regarding (1) and (2) It is intended to consider demurrage paid to the Rail- the implementation of the King's ways Department on- Park Board's second five-year plan progressively. (I) bulk superphosphate; During the first stages, priorities 00i bagged superphosphate; in the following order are under (b) on the inability of the de- current consideration:- partment to supply wagons (a) additional public lavatories ordered by superphosphate and staff changerooms; companies during 1967-68? (b) extension of water supplies: Mr. O'CONNOR replied: (c) expansion of botanical and The information asked for by the reafforestation activities: honourable member is rather (d) wildlife sanctuary. lengthy and I request permission to table copies of my letters of the 3rd September, 1968. and the 4th DYSLEXIC CHILDREN September, 1968, which set out the Teaching required details. 3. Mr. LAFRAM asked the Minister for The papers were tabled. Education: DUPLEX PROPERTIES (1) What number of school children in Western Australia are dyslexics? Separate Titles (2) What action is taken by the Edu- 5. Mr. CASH asked the Minister repre- cation Department in the teach- senting the Minister for Justice: ing of these children- (1) Can the Registrar of Titles issue (a) in the metropolitan area; a separate certificate of title for (b) in the country areas? each section of a duplex residen- tial property? Mr. NALDER (for Mr. Lewis) replied: (2) If not, and to protect the interests (1) At the present time there is no of prospective duplex residents, universally accepted definition of could not the Act be altered to the condition. Thus it is not pos- make separate titles readily avail- sible to quote numbers of children able? who could be classified as dyslexic. Mr. COURT replied: (2) Children with difficulties here are It is not clear whether the ques- not treated differently in approach tion refers to certificates of title from any others in the remedial under the Transfer of Land Act classes. or under the Strata Titles Act. 1022 1022ASSEMBLY.]

If the separate certificate of title SHEEP AND WOOL referred to is a certificate of Albany Zone title under the Strata Titles Act, 7. Mr. YOUNG asked the Minister for 1966, the answer is as follows:- Agriculture: (1) No. The Strata Titles Act (1) What was the number of sheep requires that a strata plan in the Albany zone when the wool shows the land or part therebf selling centre was established? as being divided horizontally (2) How many bales of woo] did these into two or more strata. As sheep produce? a duplex residential property (3) How many bales were sold through comprises only one stratum, the Albany wool selling centre? the Strata Titles Act has no (4) How many bales of wool have application. been sold in each year since the (2) The Strata Titles Act could be centre was established? amended to apply to single Mr. NALDER replied: stratum buildings. Whether (1) 2,463.914. it should be so amended may be considered. (2) 84,248. (3) 29,359. If the question refers to a certi- (4) Hales submitted for sale each year ficate of title issued under the since centre was established: Transfer of Land Act, the answer is as follows:- 1957-58-29,359 1958-59-45.790 (1) Under the Transfer of Land 1959-60--46,596 Act, the Registrar of Titles 1960-61-52,856 issues a certificate of title to land and not a building or 1961-62-49,270 portion thereof. .A separate 1962-63-41,370 certificate of title can be ob- 1963-64-40,537 tained to a lot on a sub- 1964-65-53,780 divisional plan or diagram approved by the Town Plan- 1965-66-62,116 ning Board. If the Town 1966-67-92,942 Planning Board approves a 1967-68-126,273 subdivision of land on which a duplex residential property South-West Land Division is erected, so that each sec- 8. Mr. YOUNG asked the Minister for tion of the duplex is the sub- Agriculture: ject of a lot, a certificate of title will be issued for each (1) What was the sheep population lot. in this State for the years 1957-58, 1962-63, and 1967-68? (2) AS the approval of vertical (2) What was the sheep population subdivisions are the province in the South-West Land Division of the Town Planning Hoard, for the Years 1957-58, 1962-63, and an amendment of the Trans- 1967-6 8? fer of Land Act is not ap- (3) How many bales of wool were pro- propriate. duced in the same areas for the Same periods? (4) What was the average price paid PRIMARY SCHOOLS for wool in Western Australia for Mandurah the years 1957-58, 1962-63, and 19 67-68? 6. Mr. RUNCIMAN asked the Minister for Education: Mr. NALDER replied: (1) what plans has the department (1) 1957-58--15,723,963. for the extension of the Mandurab 1962-63-18,727,124. Primary School? 1967-68-30, 100,000. Figures to the 31st March in each (2) Is it considered that the planning year. of a second primary school in the town is warranted? (2) Sheep Population in the agricul- tural areas-South-West Land Mr. RAIDER (for Air. Lewis) replied: Division, plus shires of Ravens- thorpe, Esperance, Dundas, and (1) Tenders will shortly be called for Yllgarn. two class rooms Plus toilets. 1957-58-12,704,210. (2) Not at this time, but it will be 1962-63-15,403,902. under constant review. 1967-68-26,300.000. [Wednesday, 11 September, 1968.] 102302

(3) Bales of wool produced in the (2) When did the State electoral agricultural areas-- office last carry out a canvass of 1957-58-408,640 bales. electoral districts for the purpose 1962-63-481,747 bales. of improving the completeness of 1967-68-810,206 bales. the rolls? (4) Average auction price paid for (3) Will he take the necessary steps wool in Western Australia- to have State electoral rolls 1957-58-60O cents/lb. brought more up to date? 1962-63-54 cents/lb. Mr. COURT replied: 1967-68-40.5 cents/lb. (1) Not at this juncture. (2) 1946. Since then enrolments have COPPER been canvassed mainly by way of Tonnage and Royalty publicity and correspondence. 9. Mr. HARMAN asked the Minister re- (3) The State electoral rolls are un- presenting the Minister for Mines: der constant revision. (1) What was the tonnage and value of copper minied in Western Aus- FISHING INDUSTRY tralia during the years ended the Fish Markets 30th June, 1967 and 1968? 11. Mr. RUNCIMAN asked the Minister (2) Does the mining of copper attract for Agriculture: a royalty to the Mines Depart- ment? (1) On what termis does the market- ing trust lease the fish markets? (3) If so, what amount per ton? (2) Are there any plans for future de- (4) If not, why not? velopment and expansion of the Mr. BOVELL replied: fish markets? (1) Year ended the 30th June, 1967- (3) If so, when is it expected this work will be commenced? Ore and Concen- Copiper Value (4) Apart from the cold storage units trates. Content provided by private enterprise, Tons Tons 9 what ether cold storage or re- Copper Ore and frigeration is available to fisher- tes . . 1,830.00 337.19 220,268.28 Copperby-productCconcentra men? of nickelTnhldn5ng Ciupreous ore (for Mr. NAWDER replied: fertillser) 6..84.52 100.2 50,934.02 (1) on a 12-mnonthly leasehold agree- Total 2,5t5.42 4917.47 356,202.30 mient similar to other tenants in the markets. Year ended the 30th June, 1908- Ore and (2) Yes. Concmi- CoPper Va lue trates! Content (3) Within the next three to four Tons Tons months. Copper ore and concentrates ... 3,861.71 808.38 791,405.44 (4) Nfl. Copper by-product of nikel mining 255.4U 118,261.00 Cupreous Ore (for Research Expenditure fortiliser) ... 847 114.10 65,383.03 12. Mr. RUNCIMAN asked the Minister Total .. 4,746.40 1,237.97 075,139,47 representing the Minister for Fisheries: (2) No. (1) What was the total amount of money spent on research into the (3) Answered by (2 fishing industry in Western Aus- (4) Copper mining in the State for tralia during 1966-67? many years has been at a very low ebb and in order to encourage ex- (2) How much was contributed by- ploration for, and production of, (a) the State Government; copper, no royalty has been (b) the Commonwealth Govern- charged. ment, into crayfish research? ELECTORAL ROLLS Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON replied: Preparation (1) The expenditure during 1966-67 10. Mr. TONKIN asked the Minister rep- by the State Government on resenting the Minister for Justice: scientific equipment and labora- (1) Is it proposed to act in pursuance tory requirements generally was of the power contained in section $8,100. 31 of the Electoral Act with a view In addition, the cost of salaries to arranging with the Common- and travelling for three research wealth for the preparation of officers, three technical officers, conjoint rolls? seven staff on the research boat, 1024 i024ASSEM]BLY.)

and the maintenance of two re- Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON replied: search vessels was approximately (1) The cray-fishing grounds in the $60,000. Mandurah-Bunbury area are not (2) (a) $25,000. extensive compared with areas be- (b) During 1966-67, three re- tween Safety Bay and Oeraldton. search scientists of the Divi- (2) (a) the grounds are fished by sion of Fisheries and Ocean- boats from Mandurah and ography, C.SI.R.O., were Bunbury together with boats engaged in research on West- from Fremantle. ern Australian fisheries. One (b) Yes. of these scientists was (3) The Mandurah-Bunbury area is engaged on crayfish research. towards the southern extremity of The actual amount of money the area occupied by the crayfish expended by C.S.I.R.O. on population. There would be little these activities is not known. value in restricting the operations of the larger crayfishing boats by CRAYFISHINO zoning the area. The crayfish policy on conservation and man- Boat Licenses agement has been based on a 13. Mr. RUNCIMAN asked the Minister consideration of the fishery as a representing the Minister for Fish- whole, including the Man durah- eries: Bunbury area. (1) Has the department granted any new or additional crayfish boat CAR LICENSES licenses since 1965? Rebates to Pensioners (2) If so, how many? 15. Mr. TOMS asked the Treasurer: (3) Does the department keep a (1) What is the reason for a six record of licensed boats and their months' car license and third owners or operators? party insurance being so much more than half of a 12 months' (4) If "Yes," why is this information license? not available? (2) As Pensioners and people on fixed (5) If "No," how does the department incomes are those most affected know when a license is duplicated? by this extra burden, will he give Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON replied: consideration to allowing a rebate (1) No. on licenses taken out by pension- (2) Nil. ers? (3) Yes. The department has a record Mr. BRAND replied: of all fishing boats licensed under (1) A motorist who renews his vehicle the Fisheries Act regulations. license half yearly would pay 62c Such records contain the name of per annum additional to the per- the current licensees. In 1967 son who renews annually. there were 1,487 boats licensed. Of this amount, 25c is stamp duty (4) and (5) The records are available on the third party insurance to the honourable member should policy; 35c is intended to defray part of the additional cost in the he desire specific details. Motor Vehicle Insurance Trust Office and licensing office, and the Mandnrah-Bunbury Area: Zoning remaining 2c is a result of the 14. Mr. RUNOTMIAN asked the Minister terminology for the calculation of representing the Minister for Fisher- short-term payments under the ies: Motor Vehicle (Third Party In- surance Surcharge) Act, (1) H-ow extensive are the crayfishing grounds in the Mandurah-Bun- (2) No. The amount in question is bury area? approximately lc a week. (2) Is the department aware- RENTAL AND PURCHASE HOMES (a) that these grounds are mainly Metro politan Area operated by boats stationed at Mandurah and Bunbury; 16. Mr. ]3URKE asked the Minister for (b) that during the recently con- Housing: cluded season these boats were Would he please advise the num- joined by deep sea boats from ber of families accommodated in the north? the metropolitan area by the State (3) Having regard to conservation, will Housing Commnission since the the department give consideration 23rd March, 1968- to zoning the area with a view to (a) rental; restricting these larger boats? (b) purchase? [Wednesday, 11 September. 1968.] 1025

Mr. O'NEIL replied: Mr. COURT replied: (a) 404 families, 20 Pensioner (1) to (3) The companies registry has couples, and 12 single unit no record of the nature of business pensioners. actually carried on by companies (b) 180. registered with it. It is therefore impossible to deter- NATURAL GAS RESOURCES mine which companies are "motor Exploitation for Local Consumpytion vehicle insurance companies." 17. Mr. BURKE asked the Minister for Industrial Development: SEARCH AND RESCUE VESSEL In view of a recent report in the Stationing at Jurien Bay, newspaper that a Japanese con- sortium is interested in exploiting 19. Mr. FLETCHER asked the Minister resources of natural gas in West- representing the Minister for ern Australia, would he advise if Fisheries: any consideration had been given (1) Is he aware that- to exploiting the gas reserves for (a) an apparently now redundant local consumption? D.C.A. 40-ton search and Mr. COURT replied: rescue vessel is due In Fre- mantle from Cocos Island in I can assure the honourable mem- a few days: ber that consideration has been, and is being, given to the use of (b) no decision has yet been made natural gas in Western Australia. whether the vessel will re- Before use of natural gas can be main in Western Australia? considered, the reserves of gas in (2) Will he endeavour at a Federal the various areas in which it has level to influence a decision to been found will need to be estab- ensure the vessel remains here, in lished. Assuming that a large gas the capacity for which It was field is found, it will be necessary designed, to assist fishing and to establish a sufficient market for other craft frequrjntly in trouble gas in a particular area so that between Oeraldton and Fre- its transmission by pipeline is mantle? economic. (3) As these two pots have alterna- For example, a market for tive rescue craft in an emergency, 70,000,000 cubic feet a day would will he, subject to acquisition, give be required to justify a pipeline consideration to stationing this or from Yardarino to Kwlnana. The a suitable alternative craft at present market for town gas in the Jurien Bay to assist in rescue metropolitan area is equivalent work? to about 3,000,000 cubic feet of Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON replied: natural gas a day. Use of natural (1) (a) and (b). The Department of gas for large industrial uses would Fisheries and Fauna is unaware of therefore need to be found before the movements of this vessel. a pipeline could be justified. (2) and (3>. No. Air sea rescue opera- I might add that a survey of in- tions are matters for dustries which are already estat- the Minister lished, and which might be poten- for Police. tial users of gas, is being under- taken, as well Ea a search for UNDERGROUND MAINS additional industries that could Objections use gas. 20. Mr. W. A. MANNING asked the Min- MOTOR VEHICLE INSURANCE ister for Electricity: COMPANIES To what extent has the State Registration in Western Australia Electricity Commission taken into account the following Points in 18. Mr. CASH asked the Minister repre- its continued objection to under- senting the Minister for Justice: ground cables-- vehicle insur- (1) H-ow many motor (1) Cost to 'S.E.C. of repairs ance companies are registered in caused by widespread wind Western Australia? damage? (2) How many new motor vehicle insurance companies have beep (2) Cost to industry halted by registered in the last three years? such a breakdown? (3) What are the names of the motor (3) Cost to S.E.C. in loss of cur- vehicle insurance companies rent sales in the same period? newly registered in the last three (4) The aesthetic effect on streets years and what were the dates Of carrying cables underground such registrations? instead of overhead? 1026 1028[ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. NALDER replied: (2) If "No," when is completion ex- (1) to (4) The State Electricity Com- pected? mission does not object to plac- (3) When does the department expect ing electricity mains underground to restore the Safety flay slipway in the metropolitan area, pro- to a usable condition and the vided the developer pays all the Safety Bay jetty to full use? additional costs involved in so placing the mains. (4) Is it intended to evaluate the in- formation from the survey with the objective of carrying out work WATER SUPPLIES to ensure permanent full use of Point Peron the Safety Bay slipway and jetty and arrest extensive silting in 21. Mr. RUSHTON asked the Minister for Warnbro Sound? Education: Mr. RO~SS HUTCHINSON replied: (1) When water mains to supply the national fitness camp at Point (1) Yes. Peron are installed, is it intended (2) Answered by (1). to obtain a service from this sup- (3) The department proposes to assist ply for the Education Depart- the Rockingham Shire in clearing ment's Point Peron camp? sand from the slipway to enable (2) If "Yes," when is connection ex- it to be restored to use in the pected? summer season 1968-69. (4) It is intended that an engineer of Mr. NALDER (for Mr. Lewis) re- the department will shortly carry plied: out an inspection of the Safety (1) The main is purely an emergency Bay slipway and jetty area with service and is not designed to shire officers to investigate means serve other than the national to enable permanent use of the fitness camp. slipway. The information ob- (2) Answered by (1). tained from the Warnbro Sound survey in 1967 will be utilised in this connection. ELECTRICITY SUPPLIES Karragullen WESTERN AUSTRALIAN WILD LIFE AUTHORITY 22. Mr. RUJSHTON asked the Minister for Electricity: Report (1) Is the commission aware that a 24. Mr. W. A. MANNING asked the Min- number of consumers at Sarra- ister representing the Minister for gullen are receiving inadequate Fauna: supply of Power for irrigation and (1) Has any report yet been Issued by cool stores during hot weather in the Western Australian Wild Life summer? Authority? (2) if "Yes"- (2) If not, can he supply a copy of

WARN7BRO SOUND TREES Silting, and Restoration of Facilities Sales from Dryandra Nurseryj 23. Mr. RUSHTON asked the Minister 25. Mr. W. A. MANNING asked the Mint- for Works: ister for Forests: (1) Has the survey and data process- (1) What number of trees has been Ing been completed for Warnbro sold to the Public from Dryandra Sound? Nursery over the last four years? [Wednesday, 11 September. 1968.1 102712

(2) What were the most popular Mr. BOVELL replied: species sold? No. Under the agreement be- Mr. BOVELL replied: tween the State and Western (1) 1964 season-52,500 trees. Mining Corporation LWd., the 1966 season-52,642 trees. whole of Kambalda townsite has 1966 season-61,124 trees. been leased to the corporation for 1967 season-71,359 trees. residential, commercial, and in- dustrial purposes with the right (2) The four most popular species to apply for freehold of each lot sold over the above periods were when developed in accordance with in order of popularity- conditions specified. River Gum. Coral Flowering Gum. ROAD TRAFFIC CODE Sugar Gum. Dwarf Sugar Gum. Amendment of Regulations The sale of River Gum trees ex- 28. Mr. T. D. EVANS asked the Minister ceeded the total of the next three for Traffic: most Popular species. (1) Have representations been madle by the Kalgoorlie District Regional Traffic Council requesting an FLATS AND HOME UNITS amendment to Road Traffic Code Provision regulations 103 as to definition of 26. Mr. CASH asked the Minister for ' control area" and 1001 (1) (a)? Housing: (2) Is it intended to effect such amendments? (1) Is he aware that a large suburban shopping centre was completed (3) In the said regulation 103 in the within 41 months of the com- definition of "control area" what mencement of building? useful purpose does the word "village" serve? (2) What are the possibilities of the State Housing Commission co- Mr. O'CONNOR (for Mr. Craig) re- ordinating with this type of plied:, builder to ease the accommoda- (1) 1 have no knowledge of any such tion problem by extensive high- request. density flat and home unit build- (2) Answered by (1). ing in serviced areas within three miles of the city centre as sug- (3) The definition of "control area" is gested in. my speech on the consistent with the definition of "townsite" in the Local Govern- Address-in-Reply? ment Act, 1960. Mr. O'NEIL replied: (1) No. LOTIERY RESULTS (2) The commission is already co- Printing in Larger Type operating with project developers 29. Mr. T. D. EVANS asked the Chief and builders as regards single Secretary: residential, medium, and high rise Will he give consideration to hav- fiats. Redevelopment of older ing lottery results printed in a areas has been a subject of dis- larger type in newspapers in order cussion at housing Ministers con- to assist elderly people who find ferences for several years but the difficulty in reading the present cost of acquisition of suitable small print? areas presents problems. To pro- vide fiats at rentals within the Mr. O'CONNOR (for Mr. Craig) re- capacity of tenants to pay re- plied: quires heavy subsidisation of the Yes. land acquisition costs. All States have this question continually WOOL EXPORT'ERS PTY. LTD, under consideration and it is also Royal Commission the subject of discussions with the Commonwealth. 30. Mr. JONES asked the Premier: (1) Has the Government received any requests to cancel the Royal Com- RESIDlENTIAL LAND mission into the activities of Wool Hambalda Exporters Pty. LWd. and others? 27. Mr. T. D. EVANS (2) When will the Government an- asked the Minister nounce the name of the com- for Lands: missioner? Does the Government intend to make residential lots available at Mr. BRAND replied: Kamnbalda. for acquisition by pri- (1) NO. vate persons? (2) In the near future. 1028 1029ASSEMBLY.]

ELECTRICITY SUPPLIES Mr. BOVELL replied: Line Loss of Power This question should have been more correctly asked of the Minis- 31. Mr. JONES asked the Minister for ter for Lands. The answer is as Electricity: follows:- is the line loss of power What (1) Approximately five acres are from- to be offered to each of the (a) Bunbury to metropolitan existing plantation owners area;:. concerned. area? (b) Muja to metropolitan (2) Owners are being notified and Mr. NALDER replied: on acceptance immediate (a) and (b) Approximately 6 per right of entry will be given. cent in both cases. (3) $80 per acre. (4) Yes, on receipt of the Lands POWER STATIONS Department notification men- Oil Burning: Production Costs tioned above. 32. Mr. JONES asked the Minister for Electricity: TRAFFIC SIGNS When the East Perth and South Anzac Road, Mt. Hawthorn Fremantle power stations are converted to oil burning stations 35. Mr. BERTRAM asked the Minister for at Christmas, what is the anti- Police: cipated production costs per unit (1) Is he aware of the increasing of power from these stations? traffic occurring in Anzac Road, Mt. Hawthorn, since the road at Mr. NALDER replied: the north end of Lake Monger was East Perth generating station- sealed recently? (This road is not estimate at 2.68c. per kwh. dedicated but appears as a con- South Fremantle generating sta- tinuation of Dodd Street.) tion-estimate at .96c per kwh. (2) Will he investigate this Position with a view to placement of signs INSPECTION OF SCAFFOLDING ACT at junctions and intersections with Anzac Road as may be found Amendments necessary? 33. Mr. HARMAN asked the Minister for (3) If "Yes," to (2), will he advise the Labour: House of the action taken? Does he Intend to introduce Mr. O'CONNOR (for Mr. Craig) re- amendments to the Inspection of plied: Scaffolding Act this session? (1) No. Details relating to traffic Mr. O'NEI1L replied: volume are not known. A committee is- currently working (2) Yes. on a proposed complete new scaf- folding Act. I am unable to indi- (3) The honourable member will be cate at present when legislation advised accordingly. will be Introduced. SEWERAGE BANANA PLANTERS Mt. Hawthorn Land Allocations 36. Mr. BERTRAM asked the Minister foi 34. Mr. NORTON asked the Minister for Water Supplies: Agriculture: (1) When were the last extensionk (1) Are the banana planters, north of made to the deep sewerage in the the Gascoyne River and east of Mt. Hawthorn electorate? the Onslow Road who accepted (2) In which area or areas were these land in exchange for their original effected? plantations when they became eroded, to be allocated an extra Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON replied: five acres of land adjoining their (1) The Metropolitan Water Supply present properties? Sewerage and Drainage Board ic (2) If so, when? currently laying sewers in the Mt (3) If "Yes," what will be the price Hawthorn electorate in the area per acre? bounded by Hutton Street, Heotos (4) Will each person be required to Street, Frobisher Street, and Scar. make an application for such borough Beach Road. land? (2) Answered by (1). (Wednesday. 11 September. 1g68.) 102902

RAILWAY INSTITUTE LAND (2) How many State Housing Com- mission homes is it anticipated Disposal will be built in this area? 31.. Mr. MAY asked the Minister for Rail- ways: Mr. O'I'EIL replied: (1) Has the Government any plans for (1) The commission has erected 92 disposing of the land currently purchase homes, 35 rental homes, and five war service homes at occupied by the Railway Institute, Forrestfield. There are no houses Perth? vacant at present. (2) If so, when and how will the land be disposed? (2) No further land suitable for build- ing is at present available but Mr. O'CONNOR replied: feasibility studies are in progress (1) No. regarding the possible utilization (2) Answered by (1). of approximately 100 acres comprising the old gravel pits. WATER SOFTENING PLANTS This area has been set aside by the Lands Department for possible Provision by Government future commission use. 38. Mr. MAY asked the Minister for Water Supplies: 41. Thtis question was postponed. (1) in what localities have water softening plants been Provided by HOUSING the Government? Kenton Way, Callsta (2) What was the individual cost of installation for each plant and the 42. Mr. TAYLOR asked the Mnister for additional operating costs per Housing: annum? Re houses at- (3) What other areas are to be pro- (a) lot 38-No. 26 Kenton Way, vided with water softening plants Calista; during the 1968-69 fihancial year? (b) lot 34-No. 44 Kenton Way, Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON replied: Calista; (1) Departmental water sof tening (c) lot 203-No. 45 Kenton Way, plants have been installed at Calista- Albany and Esperance. (1) Were the above-mentioned (2) Albany-Capital cost of three units houses in the Kwinana Shire $107,000. Annual operating costs built for the State Housing are of the order of $20,000. Commission? Esperance-Capital cost of two (2) Are these houses still owned units $70,000. Annual operating by the commission? costs are of the order of $10,000. (3) If "Yes," on what date was (3) None. each house bompleted ready for occupancy? NATIVE WELFARE DEPARTMENT (4) On what date was each house LAND first rented to a tenant? Canning and Gosnells (5) Who were the tenants in 39. Mr. BATEMAN asked the Minister for each case? Native Welfare: (8) What, in each case, was the (1) Does the Native Welfare Depart- date of application to the ment own land in the Canning commission for tenancy of a State Housing Comission and Gosnells Shire Councils? house of each of the tenants? (2) If "Yes," when is it anticipated (7) What, in each case, was the homes will be built? priority on the State Housing Mr. NALDER (for Mr. Lewis) replied: Commission lists of each of (1) Yes. the tenants in question? (2) Contracts have been let with (8) (a) Have each of these houses completion dates approximating yet been physically occu- the end of January, 1969. pied; (b) if "Yes," on what date ROUSING was each physically Fori-estfteld Area occupied; (c) if "No," why, in the light 40, Mr. BATEMAN asked the Minister for of extreme shortage of Housing: State Housing Comnis- (1) Does the State Housing Commis- sion rental homes, have sion have homes available in the any or all of these homes Porrestfleld area? not yet been occupied? 1030 1030ASSEMBLY1

Mr. O'NE1L replied: (2) When was the basic wage dropped (1) to (8) These houses, which from wage fixation in Western were completed in July, 1967, Australia? were erected by the State (3) When were quarterly basic wage Housing Commission for adjustments dropped by the State C.SB.P. and Farmers Ltd., Arbitration Court? with funds provided by the (4) What was the amount of the last company. As the owner, the annual basic wage declared by the company, controls the letting Arbitration Court? of the Properties, the in- (5) What wage is at present used by formation requested in (4) to the Arbitration Court in lieu of (8) is unknown to the com- the basic wage? mission. Mr. O'NEIL replied: TRIPLEX DWELLINGS (1) The Western Australian Court of Inclusion in Residential Zones Arbitration first declared a basic wage on the 14th June, 1926. 43. Mr. GRAHAM asked the Minister This basic wage had effect as from representing the Minister for Town the 1st July, 1926. Planning: (1) Has a decision yet been made to (2) The basic wage still remains an include triplex dwellings in gen- integral Part of the wage struc- eral residential zones? ture in Western Australia. (2) If so, what are the terms of the (3) The Western Australian Court of by-laws? Arbitration was replaced by the (3) If not, when can a decision be Western Australian Industrial expected? Commission by Act No. 76 of 1963. Both authorities had a dis- Mr, NALDER replied: cretionary Power to adjust the (1) The Building Advisory Committee basic wage quarterly from 1931 has commenced investigation to until 1966. prepare a draft amendment to the The basic wage was not always by-laws for triplex dwellings. adjusted quarterly during this (2) The draft is at present being in- period. vestigated. (4) In October, 1966, the Western (3) When all aspects of the draft have Australian industrial Commission been investigated by the Local declared a basic wage of $33.50 Government and Town Planining and on the 1st July, 1967 declar- Departments. ed a special loading of 60c which in effect Provided a primary wage, 44. This question was postponed. exclusive of margin, of $34.10. (5) There is still a State basic wage. MITCHELL FREEWAY Earthworks and Structures TUNA FISHING AT FREMANTLE 45. Mr. BURKE asked the Minister for Port Facilities for Japanese Craft Works: Would he advise the estimated 47. Mr. PLETCHER asked the Minister height above the river high water- representing the Minister for Fish- mark of eartliworks and structures eries: of that part of the Mitchell Free- (1) How many Western Australian way to be constructed on land re- fishing craft fish for tuna 1150 claimed from the river? miles south-west of Fremantle Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON replied: where the Seishin Maru No. 8 caught fire? Earthworks vary in height be- tween 2 feet and 38 feet above (2) H-ow many Fremantle boats fish high watermark-flood level- for tuna in the general locality of and structures vary in height be- Freman tie? tween 17 feet and 58 feet above (3) Since an estimated 300 Japanese high watermark. craft do cateh tuna in an area off our coast over which the State or BASIC WAGE the Commonwealth have no con- Ado ption, Discontinuance, and trol- Adjustments (a) did he at the recent Canberra 46. Mr. BRADY asked the Minister for Fisheries Ministers' Confer- Labour: ence bind this State to a (1) When was the basic wage first policy of denying Western adopted by the State Arbitration Australian Port facilities to court? these craft and crews; and [Wednesday, 11 September, 1968.] 1031

(b) did he deny the Port of Fre- Benefits Act in the final session mantle and the State the of the 25th Parliament, would he fringe benefit of the esti- advise whether the Government mated $325,000 mentioned in has investigated any new Up- The West Australian of the dating of State superannuation 10th September, 1968? entitlements? Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON replied: (2) If so, will the necessary legisla- (1) Nil. tion be introduced in the present (2) Nil. session? (3) (a) and (b) No. Mr. BRAND replied: (1) Yes. The investigation is not MILLEN SCHOOL yet complete. Slow Learners: Enrolments (2) Every endeavour will be made to 48. Mr. DAVIES asked the Minister for introduce legislation this session. Education: and I am certainly interested in having that legislation introduced. (1) How many students can the Millen Special (slow learners) School accommodate? HIRE-PUJRCHASE TRANSACTIONS (2) How many students are currently Number and Value attending this school? 50. Mr. (3) From what districts are the stud- BERTRAM asked the Minister ents drawn? representing the Minister for Justice: (1) Is any record maintained as to (4) Are there any slow learning child- the number and/or value of hire- ren capable of benefiting from purchase transactions which occur schooling debarred from schools. in Western Australia annually? either in the metropolitan or country areas? (2) If 'Yes"- (a) who keeps the record; and Mr. NALDER (for Mr. Lewis) replied: (b) how many such transactions (1) 80 students at the main school in have occurred in each of the Carson Street and 27 in the an- three years ended the 30th nexe at Welshpool. June, 1968, and/or what was (2) 68 at Millen and 24 at Welsh- the value thereof? pool. (3) If 'No," what is the estimated number of such transactions (3) Morley. which occurred in Western Aus- Bayswater. tralia during each of the three Claremont-Subiaco. years ended the 30th June, 1968, Belmont. and/or the value thereof? Cannington. Armadale. Mr. COURT replied: Riverton-South Perth. (1) Yes. Victoria Park. (2) (a) Commonwealth Bureau of Census and Statistics. (h) Number Value Midland. of of (4) No children capable of benefiting Agreemntts goods from schooling are debarred from Year ended the 30th June, schooling. However, a small num- 1066 120,200 L 00,000,000 ber of metropolitan children are Year ended the 30th June,' 1987 ... ., 128,200 104,300,000 currently on a waiting list. They Nine months ended the 31sA will be admitted as soon as prac- March, 1068 ...... 105,300 88,000,000 ticable. (3) Estimated number of agreements and valune of goods for three months ended the 30th June, 1Q08 ore- Difficulties in arranging boarding Number Value accommodation are experienced of of in the country. This situation agreements goods will be eased with the opening of 32,000 27,000,000 the Slow Learning Children's Group Hostel in Albany. LOTTERIES COMMISSION Advertising of Consultations SUPERANNUATION 51. Mr. CASH asked the Chief Secre- Updating of Entitlements tary: 49. Mr. BURKE asked the Premier: (1) Are the advertisements relating (1) In view of the continued spiral to the various consultations con- in the cost of living which has ducted by the Lotteries Cominis- accentuated the inadequacy of Sion prepared by officers of the provisions made in amendments commission or an advertising to the Superannuation and Family agency? [ASSEMBLY.]

(2) Who would give the final approval are legally employed by the Im- to the general theme used in perial Government and cannot be the advertising of the current bound by the Western Australian $150,000 Syndicate Special Lot- Industrial Arbitration Act any more than employees of the Com- (3) Does he approve of the use in monwealth Government can. the advertising for this special (3) No. I understand,. that repre- lottery of a general theme depict- sentations have been made in this ing persons armed with sawn-off regard on several occasions in the shotguns and other dangerous past and refused. Temporary weapons and obviously charac- employees receive payment in terising a gang syndicate which lieu of long service leave calcu- included two of America's most lated on exactly the same basis ruthless criminals, Bonnie Parker as State Government employees. and Clyde Barrow? Permanent employees have been (4) If 'Yes," why not depict in the refused long service leave on the advertisements Australian bush- grounds that they receive certain rangers such as the Kelly gang? benefits under the British Super- annuation Act, 1934-1956. (5) If "No," will he take action to pre- vent any repetition of this type of (4) 1 am not in a position at this advertising by the commission, stage to give an indication of which is responsible to a Govern- what might be the future of the ment pledged to maintain and up- Royal Mint. hold law and order in the com- munity? Mr. O'CONNOR. (for Mr. Craig) re- QUESTIONS (2): WITHOUT NOTICE plied: HIGH TENSION CABLES (1) An advertising agency. Crossing over Swan River (2) The commission. 1.Mr. TONKIN asked the Minister for (3) The Minister's approval is not Electricity: asked for. An advertising agency Will he advise what is the present is employed to devise methods of position regarding the proposal of selling tickets to the advantage the State Electricity Commission of charities in this State. It iS to have Power lines across the a matter of opinion whether the Swan River? advertisement referred to is effec- tive or in good taste. Mr. NALDER replied: (4) It is taken that this question is The position is still being consi- facetious. dered by Cabinet. (5) The question asked by the hon- ourable member will be referred TRAFFIC HAZARD to the commission. Canning Highway-Barker Avenue ROYAL MINT Intersection Employment Conditions and Future Ulse 2. Mr. MAY asked the Minister for Works: 52. Mr. BURKE asked the Premier: (1) Is he aware of the dangerous traf- (1) floes the Government agree with fic hazard which currently exists the principle of arbitration? at the intersection of Canning (2) If "Yes," why would it not re- Highway and Barker Avenue, commend to Her Majesty that the South Perth, following the recent Royal Mint be brought under the erection of a median strip? Industrial Arbitration Act? (2) If so. will be advise what action (3) Is the Government prepared to is contemplated in an endeavour recommend to Her Majesty that to rectify the present unsatisfac- long service leave be paid to Royal tory position? Mint workers in the same manner as State Government employees? Mr. ROSS HUTTCHINSON replied: (4) Can he inform the House if, after (1) Construction work is at present the 30th September, 1968, the in progress at this site for the Royal Mint will be used as a gold installation of traffic signals and and silver retort? no additional hazard exists other than that which may be expected _Mr. BRAND) replied: at any construction site. (1) Yes. Proper signing of the works has (2) The Government cannot make been undertaken and observation such a recommendation because by motorists of these signs allows the workers at the Royal Mint safe negotiation of the section. [Wednesday, 11 September, 1958.)

(2) The installation will be completed the merits of the goods they have to sell, as soon as possible, although some and if the householders do not want to delay has been experienced in enter into a contract, or if they would completion of the surfacing and like to have another look at It, the sales- marking of the roadway owing to man says everything is all right because wet weather. under the Door to Door (Sales) Act people have a seven-day cooling-off period in DOOR TO DOOR (SALES) ACT which to sign the contract or have another look at it. They tell people that if they Amending Legislation: Grievance do not wish to carry on with the contract 31R. MAY (Clontarf) [5.4 p.m.]: I they can send the goods back. wish to project a matter which I feel People have been openly signing con- should be brought to the notice of the tracts feeling they have this seven days' House. In this instance my grievance is in coverage. But at the end of seven days connection with door-to-door salesmen. I when a woman has had a good look at a refer to the unethical, Uigh-pressure contract and discussed it with her hus- methods adapted by these salesmen. band and finds she does not want the It will be recalled that back in 1964 I goods, she takes them back. However, introduced a Bill successfully into this the firms say it is no good her bringing House to restrict the activities of this type the goods back because they are not cov- of high-pressure salesman; and, whilst. I ered by the Door to Door (Sales) Act. This did say I was successful, I would like to add is something which I feel should be taken that it was not successful inasmuch as the into consideration by the Goverinent. original intent of the Bill was mutilated to such an extent it has created subsequently I recently asked several questions of the a considerable amount of confusion. Minister representing the Minister for Briefly, I would like to go over some of Justice as follows:- the matters which have come to my notice In view of the increased activity of since 1964. So that members will be con- high pressure unethical salesmen sell- versant with what I did at that time, I ing various types of kitchenware, shall quote portion of my speech from etc.- Hansard of the 9th September, 1964, as (1) What consideration has been given follows:- to providing legislative protec- Firstly 1 would like to thank the mem- tion? bers on both sides of the House for (2) Have any steps been taken to allowing me to introduce the Bill at extend the provisions of the Door this stage. The main purpose of the to Door (Sales) Act to cover all measure Is to safeguard certain credit types of goods? agreements induced by high-pressure (3) If not, will he give consideration itinerant salesmen. to this matter during the current I believe that this Bill will meet session of Parliament? what has become a real problem, where people who are not trained to The answer I received was that the matter resist specialised canvassers, frequent- of consumer protection is under consider- ly commit themselves to expenditure ation by the Standing Committee of beyond their means and ability to pay, Attorneys- General. That was also the sometimes paying prices greatly in ex- answer I received in 1964; so this standing cess of the value of the purchases they committee has been considering the matter intend to make. Where people are for four years! There is obviously some- high-pressured into contracts It is my thing wrong. considered opinion that they should Mr. O'Connor: Have many cases been be given an opportunity to deny the referred to the police or to the C.I.B.? contracts upon reflection. As I indicated in that speech "upon re- Mr. MAY: Cases have been reported to flection" was a provision in the Bill to the police; but I am going to refer to the allow a cooling-off period of seven days. Ombudsman who reports in a daily news- paper. I have a number of cases to dis- When the Bill was originally introduced close. Over 100 eases have been reported Into the House its provisions covered all to the Ombudsman during a period of two types of goods but, unfortunately, the Gov- to three years; and these cases can be ernment saw fit to amend the legislation associated with the door-to-door selling to cover only books, magazines, and litho- graphy. Since the Act was promulgated in provisions of the Act. January, 1965, there has been an Increas- I have also recently received a consider- ed spate of high-pressure salesmanship in able number of complaints. There was an the metropolitan area and In the State advertisement in a Sunday newspaper generally: and the confusion which exists advising people to send complaints to me over the interpretation is what I desire to and, since then, I have been flooded with bring before the House as a grievance. this type of complaint. I was in aLposition Quite a number of high-pressure sales- to talk to a supplier and I was able to con- men have been going round to household- vince him that the contracts had not been ers in an endeavour to convince them o1 made in the best interests of the people 1034 1034ASSEMBLY.] concerned; and, in some instances, there None of us condone unscrupulous tactics; have been retractions of the agreements. and, when the honourable member intro- However, this does not always happen. duced his legislation, the Government made It is all right for the Minister for Trans- it Quite clear that it would keep the Port to ask, "How many cases have been matter under review. referred to the police?" but a lot of people The Minister for Justice, through my do not wish to go to the police, as they answering on his behalf, made this feel they have foolishly entered into very clear when the honourable member something and they do not wish to bring asked whether it was proposed to in- the matter under notice. If, however, they troduce amending legislation during this write to a. newspaper they can use a nom session. The answer I gave, on behalf of de plume and so bring the matter for- my colleague, was, "Yes, if sufficient com- ward. plaints are received by departments." I feel that at this point of time there That answer still stands, is a case for the provisions of the Act to be I presume the honourable member has amended so that it will provide a coverage forwarded his information and complaints for all goods. This would enable sales- to the Minister for Justice, in which case men to go around to householders and I shall take an early opportunity to dis-, legitimately sell their goods without, any cuss the matter with my colleague to worry on their Part or on the part of the ascertain the nature of the complaints. householders. Some salesmen to whom I1 I wish to make one point: Try as hard have talked have said they would welcome as we will in this Chamber to legislate the fact that there would be unrestricted to protect people, there will always be some sales at the door and that the people to we cannot protect. These people will not whom they were selling would be fully say, "No," and part of the job we have covered. to undertake is that of education so that they will learn to not take on cornmit- If salesmen are prepared to accept this, I am sure there is every justification for ments which are beyond their means. the provisions of the Act to be amended. It is not always easy to say, "No," to Not all salesmen come within the bounds some of the high-pressure boys: but the of unethical salesmanship. Those who do fact the the honourable member has are the minority, but unfortunately those brought this matter up a number of times comprising this minority are going round in Parliament could well be an educa- Peddling their wares to unfortunate indi- tional medium. This will probably achieve viduals. more results than a Statute. In my ex- perience, no matter how tight a Statute It is the proletariat that requires this might be, somebody will always get around protection. Usually the affluent person IS it. academically in a position to interpret a contract and understand it before enter- DIESEL PASSENGER SERVICE ing into an agreement. On the other hand, there is the ordinary person who is N'ortham to Perth: Grievance simply trying to obtain something for his home in order to improve his position. MR. MelVER (Northeam) L5.15 p.m.J: The only 'way for him to do this is to accept I utilise this period to speak on behalf something at the door; and, after a fair of the people of Northain and surrounding bit of talking by the salesman, this type of districts, and to support them in their person signs a contract to find out later he claim for a modern diesel service to oper- is tied down to an agreement. ate between Perth and Northam. Not a week passes that my phone does not ring The situation has recently been acecentu- or someone does not come to my door to ated by the development that is taking pursue this issue. place in the north. A considerable num- ber of husbands, or breadwinners, have Let us examine what has motivated the gone north in an endeavour to earn more concern of the people of Northam in re- money to Provide for their wives and lation to this matter. The mode of trans- families, and the seven days cooling-off port available to them at the moment is period is insufficient for a wife to get in the railway bus. This has, over a time, touch with her husband. So, since 1964, proved most unsatisfactory, and r place there is sufficient justification for the Act before the House the reasons for this to be amended, and I sincerely hope the state of affairs. Minister representing the Minister for Firstly, people who have to attend the Justice in this House will give this matter city to visit doctors and specialists, and some consideration. for other reasons, must travel down the The SPEAKER: Order! The honourable day before their appointment because the member's time has expired. present service does not allow them to do otherwise. This is a ridiculous situ a- MIR. COURT (Nedlands-Minister for tion in a town which is situated only 60 Industrial Development) (5.13 P.m.J: on miles from the capital. behalf of the Minister for Justice, I In the Past-and as recently as this would like to briefly comment on the re- Year-buses have broken down, thus cre- marks made by the honourable member. ating a delay of five and six hours. Good EWednesday, 11 September, 198.1 131035 heavens! I think the Israelites had a route. it is one of the greatest attractions better mode of travel when they went to in Australia at present, and why people the promised land under the direction of should be debarred from using this route, Moses; and I am sure they were better I do not know. I know people would come looked after than are the people of Nor- from far and wide if a service were opened. tham. They would leave their cars in Northam When the Avon Valley route was opened and travel on the train and then return the people of Northam were debarred from in the evening to their cars and so to their all passenger services. They could not respective homes. utilise the Kalgoorlie express or the Al- I respectfully request the Minister for bany express, although a station, which Railways to go expeditiously into this cost the people of this State thousands matter and consider it in its right perspec- of dollars, had lain idle for months. Following representations by my pre- tive. At present those in Northam are de- decessor (Mr. Hawke) to the Minister, the barred from utilising modern transporta- latter agreed to allow the people of Nor- tion. if the Minister will correct this tham to journey down on the Kalgoorlie situation, he will be rendering to the people express and return on the Albany express. of Northam justice to which they are Before this, the People had to be trans- entitled. ported by bus seven miles from the town. On many occasions when people travelled MR. O'CONNOR (Mt. Lawley-Minister on the Albany express, they had to crawl for Railways) [5.21 p.m.]: I think the on their stomachs under the stationary honourable member over-simplifies this train and over the couplings. matter. The Government is always pre- pared to study any separate railway pas- I still shudder to think what the situ- senger set-up. However, we must, of ation would have been had the train on necessity, do this not only from the point any occasion moved off. I would hate to of view of giving a good service to the have been in the commissioner's shoes if public, but also from the point of view there had been a fatality under those cir- of the economics Involved. cumstances. What I am saying is factual. It must be borne in mind that the tax- The situation to which I have referred payers must bear something like a is ridiculous in a modern State which is $4,500,000 loss on the railways annually. supposed to be on the move. Despite all and over $2,500,000 of this amount in- our modern transport, this is what the volves passengers throughout the State. people of Northam are facing. There is It must be realised that to run a bus or nothing to stop the Government introduc- train willy-nilly, without giving thought ing on Monday morning a modern diesel to the economics of the situation, places service to run between Northam and Perth. the taxpayers in a worse position than Half the time this section of line lies idle. they are in already. It is beyond my comprehension why there The honourable member said that the is a reluctance to introduce the diesel ser- rail buses to Northam are not satisfac- vice to replace the service that prevails tory. I might say that I have not heard today. any comment, to any degree, to sub- Many of the People concerned are up in stantiate the information he gives. arms about the matter. They leave Nor- tham on the bus and are diverted to Wun- Mr. Mclver: Have a ride on one then. dowie and Wooroloo, and instead of getting Mr. O'CONNOR: I have done so, and I to their business or medical appointments believe they are very good buses, operated on time, they spend anything from two and very well by efficient men. They do a a. half to three hours to complete their good job. I do not know whether tbe journey. If a diesel service from Northam honourable member believes the buses are to Perth was introduced, these people not good or that they are driven badly. could be down here in one and a half When purchasing these buses, the depart- hours. That is, of course, if the train ment takes everything into consideration was travelling at normal speed. However, and buys what I believe is first-class I have no hesitation in saying that this equipment. The department also em- speed could be increased-the same as it ploys first-class drivers, and they do a has been in the south-west-to 50 miles good job. an hour and the travelling time reduced Many of the buses running to some still further. country areas are fully air-conditioned' If ever a demand for a service were jus- and are up to a standard as good as any- tified, it is this demand by the people of thing I have seen throughout the World. Northam. I do not know why the Govern- If the honourable member could give some ment wants to keep the Avon Valley route guarantee that a certain number of people a secret. It is nothing to be ashamed of would utilise a diesel service if it were and the Government has nothing to apolo- established, the Governmnent would have gise for in connection with it. The terrain a look at it. However, we have found is most picturesque, and I do not know that on many occasions when a train why the Government wants to prevent is put into operation to a country town, people from seeing it and utilising the the patronage is not sufficient to go even 1036 1036[ASSEMBLY.]

half -way towards meeting the cost of the 2. Motor Vehicle (Third Party Insur- service. ance) Act Amendment Hill. Mr. Mclver: We would pack it, even if Hill received from the Council: and, we bad to kidnap half the town. on motion by Mr. Brand (Premier), read a first time. Mr. O'CONNOR: That may be so. How- ever, if the honourable member could supply factual information in connection NICKEL REFINERY (WESTERN with this matter, we would certainly study MINING CORPORATION LIMITED) it, but with two things in mind: render- AGREEMENT BILL ing a' service to the community, and the Third Reading burden on the taxpayers. resultant MR. COURT (Nedlands-Minister for Resolved: That grievances be noted. Industrial Development) (5.29 p.m.]: I move- PARLIAMENTARY SALARIES That the Bill be now read a third correction of Press Statement: time. Personal ExplZanationl I want to answer two queries raised by the MR. FLETCHER (Fremantle) [5.24 member for Cockburn. The first was in pi.m.]: I would like leave of the House to connection with the intrusion of what he make a personal explanation. referred to as a finger of land into the Leave granted. greenbelt area. 'The situation, as I under- I wish to correct a Press statement on stand it is that the company was given Daily News under approval to fill up to the 65-foot contour. page one of tonight's This involved some clearing. Incidentally. the heading, "Opinions Divided on M.P. the company asked Pay Rises." I point out that my opinion was I might mention that sought Per telephone this morning, and to go to a higher level, but the request was as having said- refused after consultation with the Parties I am on record concerned. The company is obligated to Fremantle M.L.A. H. A. Fletcher: undertake a tree-planting scheme to "I am gratified that an independent rehabilitate this area, and It will not be tribunal made the decision to increase very long before it will have completed Its wages, as distinct from previous prac- use of this particular area. tice where the Government made the decision." The second point is in connection with This is correct, with the exception of one the rates under clause 3 (8) of the agree- important word. I did not use the word mient. As I promised, I checked this morn- "Government." I used the word "Parlia- ing and found that the negotiations be- ment" in the context that I believed the tween the company and the shire have not previous system to be wrong where par- been completed, but there is every inten- liamentarians determined their own sal- tion on the part of the company to work aries and conditions by way of legislation, out what is an amicable arrangement; while telling those they represent to go and the good offices of the Department to arbitration to improve theirs. I hope of Industrial Development have been. I have corrected that Press misrepre- offered to make an assessment of what of my remarks. would be the ratable income, had the sentation company not made this agreement, and BILLS (6): RETURNED had the original owners remained in pos- session of their land. 1. Rural and Industries Hank Act Amendment Bill. Question put and Passed. 2. Dried Fruits Act Amendment Bill. Hill read a third time and transmitted 3. Road and Air Transport Commission to the Council. Act Amendment Bill. 4. Artificial Breeding Board Act Amend- TWO-PART WAGE ment Bill. Restoration: Motion 5. Commonwealth and State Housing Agreement Act Amendment Bill. MR. TONKIN (Melville-Leader of the 6. State Trading Concerns Act Amend- Opposition) [5.32 p.m.): I move- ment Hill. In the opinion of this House legis- Hills returned from the Council with- lation should be introduced this session of Parliament to restore the out amendment. concept of a wage divided into two parts, viz., one Part to be subject to BILLS (2): RECEIPT AND cost-of-living adjustments and the FIRST READING other Part to reflect the relative skills 1, Local Government Act Amendment of the workers. Bill. When I gave notice of this motion I was Bill received from the Council; and, unaware that the Minister either had made on motion by Mr. Nalder (Minister a statement of the Government's Inten- for Agriculture), read a first time. tions, or was about to make a statement, [Wednesday. 11 September, 1968.1 103713 but I was aware that the question had been principle, surely, that earnings should rise submitted to the Minister some little time in at least the same proportion as the cost ago. Of course, the fact that a matter of living, has been before the Government for con- If the Government takes steps which sideration is no criterion that it will be result in the freezing or holding of wages dealt with, or dealt with expeditiously. so that they cannot rise along with the rises in the cost of living, then the Gov- We had the statement of the Minister ernment is responsible for a reduction in for industrial Development that the pro- living standards, and that is precisely what posal of Hamersley iron to promulgate by- following the action of this laws for the Port of Dampier was received has happened by his department and forwarded to the Government in 1966. Crown Law Department in December, As I proceed, I shall show the large 1966. However, 22 months have elapsed amount of money which has been lost to and no decision has been made on a simple the workers in a day-another way by question of that kind. So it is understand- ,which they have been deprived-because able that with a matter of policy such as a the basic wage at the time was frozen and basic wage proposal going at the same pace. the power of the court to make quarterly the next election could well be upon us adjustments was removed. At the time before the Government made any the Government did this it could not decision at all. anticipate that the Federal court would subsequently abolish the basic wage and In view of that we on this side of the come out with a total wage which would House had no hesitation in proposing this immediately cause complications so far as motion, the purpose of which is to indicate the aplication of State law was con- our thoughts to the Government so that cerned; and one would have thought that when it gets round to doing something in the Government would have immediately connection with the matter, it may be per- given attention to this question. suaded to take a more realistic view of the situation and to bring in something more When the State basic wage was frozen in line with the requirements of the State. in 1955 the then wage was $33.50 and, ordinarily-if quarterly adjustments had The question of wage fixation is one been permitted-as the cost of living con- which has exercised the mninds of industri- tinued to rise there would have been ad- alists, judges, scholars, and economists j ustments to that wage to ensure that the world over, and many methods have there was no erosion of the standard of been utilised from time to time to try to living. provide a method by which some sem- blance of wage justice could be given to Mr. O'Neil: Not "there would have the great body of workers. been," but "there may have been." It is undeniable, I think, that wages- Mr. TONKIIN: I say there would have and I Use the word "wages" inclusive of been. I have the consumer price indices salaries-are by far the largest category in front of me not only for this State, of income in any industrialised community but for all the States, and these show a and, therefore, if the wages are not justly gradual and continual rise In the cost of adjudicated upon, a very serious situation living from the time the basic wage was can arise in connection with the economy frozen. There is a difference of opinion and have net only an adverse effect upon as to whether the greater advantage to the economy, but also a very disastrous the economy is to be obtained fraon mak- eff ect upon the lives and the welfare of a ing quarterly adjustments to the wage, big body of people. which would necessarily be smaller Wage policies, we feel, need to be accom- amounts, compared with making a yearly panied by appropriate measures relating adjustment of a larger amount. to other Incomes. In some countries ov- We hold the view that it is fairer to erment pricing policies are sometimes the workers to give them a quarterly ad- utilized in conjunction with wage fixation justment, because wages, except inl times for the purpose of endeavouring to bring of depression, are invariably lagging be- about some stability In the economy and hind prices. I can recall that years ago, to ensure that wages, when fixed, will not when prices be immediately eroded by increases in the were falling, the Govern- cost of living. ment of the day was quick to enact legis- lation to reduce the period which elapsed It is the practice in some countries to before variations were made. That Gov- utilise the system known as collective bar- ernnient-naturally, because of thle atti- gaining; and it is the normal practice in tude it took, it was a Liberal Government those countries where there is a high -considered It was wrong to have a wage degree of workers' and employers' organ- fixed on a yearly basis, and thus have to isations to agree upon the wages to be wait 12 months to catch up with falling paid in any particular Industry. The prices and so reduce the wage. Legislation countries which are currently doing that was, therefore, brought to Parliament-Sir are the Scandinavian countries: Denmark, James Mitchell was the Premier at the Norway, and Sweden. I think it is a basic time-in order to reduce the period. EASSEMBLY.]

When it goes the other way, and wages dex figures, the situation is as follows. are lagging behind prices, aLGovernment In W.A. the basic wage was then of the same complexion is, of course, £8 6s. 6d. and since that date there anxious to retard the wage fixation and were ten variations on a quarterly basis to keep the wages as far behind rising up to and including August, 1953, and, prices as possible, and so we get the re- including the present adjustment, 32 suit which obtained here in 1966 when movements on a quarterly basis since the basic wage was frozen and the power 1953, making a total of 42 variations. to make quarterly adjustments was taken These adjustments, including a very from the court. When the Common- slight addition to real wages following wealth court made its award of $1, the the General Inquiry of last year, have unions here attempted to derive some ad- increased the basic wage to £15 19s. 7d., vantage from that, because the Govern- an increase of £V 13s. id. ment had previously said its objective was Under Commonwealth jurisdiction -to hold the State basic wage until the there were ten variations on a quar- Federal wage caught up with it, and then terly basis up to and including August, the two wages could move forward to- 1953, following which quarterly adjust- gether. ments were abolished. Since that date When the Commonwealth court made its there have been six variations to the award of.$1 and abolished the concept of basic wage brought about by inquiries the basic wage, the situation was a com- at intervals of a year or more. These plicated one. The unions were entitled to sixteen movements have brought the expect that they would get some benefit Federal basic wage (Six Capital Cities) from the $1 increase. However when they from £8 2s. in 1950 to £15 Bs., an in- approached the court they received only crease of £7 6s.: Sydney £8 5s. to £15 60c. We feel there should be a return to iss. (increase £7 10s.); Melbourne the concept of having a basic wage which £8 2s. to £15 7s. (increase £7 5s.); will provide a reasonable living standard Brisbane £V 14s. to £14 10s. (increase for a man and his family, and there should £6 16s.); Adelaide £7 18s. to £15 3s. bd superimposed upon that another amount (increase £7 5s.); Hobart £8 to £15 awarded according to the relative skills 14s. (increase £7 14s.). of workers in various sections of industry. If quarterly adjustments are a greater contributing It is interesting to consider what the factor to price in- creases than the less frequent move- then chairman of the industrial Com- ments resulting from the Common- mission had to say when speaking on be- wealth determinations, then one half of the commission in a judgment might expect that Price movements in which was given in December, 1965, on Western Australia over this period the question of whether it was advan- would be greater than other States. tageous to the economy to make quarterly However, such is not the case, as the adjustments of small amounts in prefer- following figures indicate:- ence to yearly adjustments of larger amounts. As this is very important and I do not propose to read those figures. but germane to what I am saying, I propose Commissioner Schnaars then set out the to quote from the Western Australian In- figures showing the consumer price index dustrial Gazette, page 942, on the 1st De- for each of the capital cities, including cember, 1965. The chairman said- Perth. Then he set out the actual in- Quarterly Adjustments and Price creases. Without quoting all the figures from September, 1950, to September, 1965, Movements. I shall just read the percentage increases The question whether frequent ad- to illustrate the point the commissioner justments by means of quarterly was making. The figures are as follows:- movements of relatively small amounts Percentage Increase in Prices as Indi- contribute to. price increases to a greater extent than adjustments of cated by the Consumer Price Index. larger amounts at annual or less fre- Increase quent intervals is one on which no per cent. definite conclusion appears possible. Perth 86.5 However, it is of interest to compare Six Capitals 92.1 Price movements in W.A., where quar- Sydney ...... 90.5 terly adjustments have been fairly Melbourne ...... 94.8 consistent, with those of other States Brisbane ...... 96.4 comning under Federal jurisdiction, Adelaide 87.2 where less frequent and larger wage Hobart 99.7 movements have occurred. So Western Australia had the lowest per- Taking the 1950 basic wage as the centage increase of any capital city and, starting point, that being a time when naurally, was below the figure for the six all basic wages throughout the Com- capitals. Mr. Schnaars went on to say- monwealth were increased by approxi- Prices have increased less in Western mately the same amount, and could be Australia, where quarterly adjustments related to the September Quarter in- have been fairly consistent than they [Wednesday, 11 September, 1968.1 1039

have in other States where, in line with Mr. TONIN: Apparently the message Federal determinations, quarterly ad- has not got home yet, so the Minister justments have been abolished, and should read it again, and several times have been less than in South Australia, more, if necessary, because in my view where a form of Price control has con- there is a great deal of wisdom in what tinuously applied. is expressed in that judgment. May I break in at this point to emphasise From practical experience we know that that even in South Australia, where there employers do not readily rush to increase is a form of price control in operation, Prices because there has been an increase the control did not Prevent the rise in the in costs. The wise and able employer consumer price index in that State from knows full well that if he can improve his being more than the rise In Western Aus- efficiency and keep his prices down he is tralia. more likely to increase his business against his competitors than if he follows the In my view, whilst it is not a conclusive leader and increases his prices perhaps a argument, it points strongly to the fact little more than the increase made by his that quarterly adjustments are more read- competitor. After all Is said and done, ily absorbed into the economy, because one might look to the example of Tom the employers are not impelled to the same Cheap Grocer to see how a business can be extent to add the increase to their prices built up if one creates the impression as they feel they are when the increase is abroad that a saving can be made by deal- granted on a yearly basis, or is more sub- ing with such a firm. stantial. Putting it another way: If the increase amounts to only a few cents, So any employer who is In the position employers feel it is in their interests to that he need not increase the price of his absorb it and not bring about a price rise, commodity despite an Increase in wages, Is but if the increase is more substantial they definitely in a more advantageous position hesitate to absorb it, believing their profits than his competitor who does not hesitate will disappear in the process, and that, tload onto his price every adjustment therefore, they cannot afford to absorb a made to wages. I suggest therefore, that large increase. this is a Point of view which should com- mend itself to the Government. I consider So we get a price rise which has a sort the Government was very short-sighted in of snowballing effect and which causes a the action it took previously, and of course general rise in prices throughout the econ- this has cost the workers quite a deal of omy. This immediately has the effect of money. eroding the living standard, and, of course, of working It cannot be gainsaid that the action of adversely against the working the Government in 1966 has brought about man. Mr. Schnaars went on to say- what must be characterised as a serious I recognise that there are so many deterioration in the wage standards of the factors which contribute to Price People of this State. The Government has movements that the foregoing does made no attempt to check price rises. A not entitle one to arrive at a definite week or two ago, when it was suggested In conclusion, but nevertheless they en- this House the Government might follow title one to doubt whether the abolit- the lead of Victoria and impose some sort ion of a discretionary power in rela- of restriction on rents, which continue to tion to quarterly adjustments, which rise in Western Australia, the Government would then be replaced by the less could not see that any benefit would be frequent but larger periodical move- derived from such a procedure. In other ments as applied under Federal juris- words, it was not interested in controlling diction. would prove as beneficial to rents in this State, nor has it shown any the economy as some theoreticians interest in controlling prices. Its only would assume. interest his been to control and freeze There may well be some justification wages, for the line of thought which suggest As a result It has been computed that that smaller and frequent wage the wage for a male has been kept down adjustments can be better absorbed to the extent of $1.62, and for a female within the technical improvements $1.22, or. in other words, the Government which are so closely associated with has deprived the work force of a total of increased productivity, than the less $416,930 in one week; and, if this con- frequent but larger wage movements tinued for a period of 12 months, with which psychologically prepare the way wages and prices remaining at the same for the least line of resistance by the level as are obtaining now. the loss to application of price increases. the work force would be $21,680,622. That is a colossal figure which cannot be justi- It would be well worth while to read the fied in any shape or form, and which is whole of this section on this point,' but I brought about by the fact that the wage do not propose to do that. It is there for was deliberately frozen and nothing was anybody who is sufficiently interested to done to cheek the rise in the cost of liv- read It, but I suggest to the Minister for ing. This has resulted in the serious Labour that he is one who should read it. deprivation of something to which the Mr. O'Neil: I have read it many times. workers were justly entitled. 1040 140[ASSEMBLY.]

Many years ago, when the system of to ensure that capital is properly re- arbitration was being developed and It warded, because those with Capital can was felt that, as a basis, there should be look after themselves. a living wage-this wage being fixed on Capital is not available unless one Is the basis of a man, wife, and two child- prepared to pay a certain rate of interest, ren-it was said that industry should be and those owning the capital fix the rate. prepared to Day a sum required to keep On this question-I know that you, Mr. a, man, wife, and two children on a reason- Speaker, will not allow me to pursue it able standard of living, having regard to very far, but will permit me to give an the worker's commitments. illustration-I wonder who gives the banks If we accept that as being wise and just, the permission to put up the rate of surely we have to make some provision interest when it suits them, just because for the worker who passes through a sys- they want more for the capital they pro- tem of apprenticeship, studies at a school vide to industry. This happened quite of technology, and spends his own time recently, when the banks suddenly in order to improve his skill and efficiency. decided-irrespective of the contracts in Unless rewards are available to such a existence, or of the arrangements made worker, it is inevitable that the efficiency by home buyers with the banks in regard of the work force will decline, because to the rate of interest they shall pay on there will be no incentive for any worker their loans-to send out a notification to undergo a course of study to improve that as from a certain date the rate of his capacity. interest would be at a higher percentage. Mr. Rushton: The Reserve Bank controls We then introduced a system of mar- that. gins, under which we superimposed upon the base a further wage as an inducement Mr. TONKIN: But the worker cannot do and a reward, according to the relative the same thing. He is obliged to accept skill of the worker who was to receive what is awarded to him by the court, when such payment. That brought about what the court is allowed to make an award. is known as a margin for skill. Surely When there is a Goveirnent such as this there could be no fairer way of fixing the in office, which decides to take the Power wage so that those in the various spheres away from the court, then the situation of industry and commerce could be re- is made even worse. Nobody in this House warded according to the contributions can deny that was precisely what this they made to the general development. Government did in 1966. It took the power from the court deliberately, in order Labour is a basic ingredient. Although to remove the impact upon the Treasury some of my parliamentary friends on the following rises in the basic wage. opposite side may place a greater empha- It was obvious, as the Government was sis on the value of capital, I would point not doing anything to check prices, that out that capital would not get very far basic wage increases would follow as surely without labour, and possibly labour would as night follows day. Knowing that, the not get very far without capital. How- Government took inmmediate steps to ever, I would not agree that capital is of ensure that the wage would be held at the any greater value than labour, as I will level where it was; but no such action show by this Illustration: If a person was was taken to ensure that prices were held cast off on one of the coral islands and at the level where they were, or to ensure had a letter of credit for $1,000,000 in his there was no erosion of wage standards. pocket, that would not ensure that he The Government was not concerned with could continue to survive; but if he was not physically disabled, was able to get that aspect at all. around the island, and was able to use We feel that as a complicated system his feet and hands, then I have no doubt has arisen because of the total wage decla- that he would survive. That simple illus- ration by the Commonwealth court-and tration shows that in the ultimate, when the legislation in Western Australia refers it comes to a showdown, the more im- to a basic wage-this is the time to look portant of the two is labour. at this subject fairly so as to get back to a reasonable method of fixing the wage. Mr. O'Neil: If the person survived long We on this side advocate it should be a enough on the island that letter of credit basic wage subject to Quarterly adjust- would be very handy! ments by the court, with a margin for skill Mr. TONKIN: Of course it would, but according to the relative skill of the if the person had to eat it then he would workers in the various sections of industry. not last very long. I think we all agree When the Minister for Labour made his that the ideal situation is that we should statement to the evening Press yesterday use the two conjointly. We have to have and to the morning Press today, it would capital so that labour can be rewarded have been more enlightening had be stated and be employed; but we have to recog- in general outline what the Government nise the importance of labour. Greater intended to do about this question. I defy steps to ensure that labour is properly anyone to be able to do other than to rewarded should be taken than are taken guess. There is nothing in the statement [Wednesday. 11 September, 1968.] 104104 of the Minister which is of sufficient sub- at a loss, and at an increasing loss, whilst stance to provide the basis for logical other people are making hay while the thought to arrive at a conclusion. sun shines? Mr. O'Neil: You would be one of the That is the ease we, on this side, pre- first to complain if Parliament was not sent. We say the position requires urgent given the first opportunity to see the new attention. Enough damage has been done legislation. already, as will be seen from the figures I have quoted; and it is high time the Mr. TONKIN: I would not deny that; Government gave this matter top priority but why did the Minister not withhold all by introducing legislation to correct the his statement and tell Parliament the existing situation, and so mete out to whole lot, instead of telling half of it? the people of this State-the big body Mr. Brand: We cannot seem to win! of wage earners, and I include salary Mr. TONKIN: I do not think the Min- earners among them-what Is their just ister would have said anything to the Press due. if my motion had not been coming forward Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr. at this stage. O'Neil (Minister for Labour). Mr. O'Neil: It took you a long time to bring it forward. I made a statement over BARRACKS ARCH the A.B.C. about 10 days ago. Resiting: Motion Mr. TONKIN: I did not think it was of Debate resumed, from the 28th August, much importance, because it did not men- on the following motion by Mr. Fletcher.- tion anything about this matter. That in the opinion of this House, Mr. Brand: Of course that remark the Government should use finance applies to many statements made in this and existing material available, for House!I the purpose of more appropriately re- Mr. TONKI: I do not suppose the Min- siting the Barracks Arch, entirely or ister will be drawn-even though he is in part, at the foot of Barrack Street now in the Rouse and will not breach any after which, it is understood, the privilege at all by telling us-into saying street is named. just what the Government has in mind, MR. 1. W. MANNING (Wellington) r6.1i and whether it intends to adopt the basic p.m.]: I am opposed- wage concept with quarterly adjustments in accordance with the rise in the cost of The SPEAKER: Order! The people in living. If, in not meting out justice to the gallery must remain silent as they the workers, it is a move on the part of are leaving. The business of Parliament the Government to extricate itself from is still continulng. certain difficulties of its own making, Mr. I. W. MANNING: I am opposed to then we will have none of it. If this motion submitted by the member for the Government intends to take some Fremantle. action to control prices, and particularly The decision that the archway of the rents, which are outrageous in many old Barracks should be preserved and instances, then we might take a different should remain where it is was made in this view of the situation. House in 1966. An assurance has been If the Government intends to do given that the edifice which still stands in nothing about the existing situation and its original position will be given a face- allows rents to go sky high and prices lift and rehabilitated at an estimated cost to continue to rise, then we feel in com- of between $22,000 and $25,000. To de- mon justice that Quarterly adjustments molish the archway now and to remove it of the basic wage should be reintroduced, from the present site would be, to say the so that when the price index rises the least, to throw in the towel just when the wages cam be brought up to that level opportunity is with us to see what can be of prices, to ensure there is no erosion made of' it. of wage standards. I am sure that if the task of beautifica- I do not know how anybody, particularly tion and preservation is taken in the right in what is supposed to be a State on the spirit, the archway will emerge as a struc- move, can expect the State to move for- ture of character and beauty, and this un- ward at the expense of the body of wage doubtedly will prove to be a joy forever to earners. Surely with some people becom- the supporters of its retention. Very many ing almost millionaires overnight, the big people have worked and pressed hard for body of workers--without whom capital the archway to be preserved on the present can do very little-should be permitted site, and they are now keenly looking for- to share in the prosperity to some extent. ward to seeing the restoration proposals What we are asking for is that the big being undertaken, so that we may all see body of workers shall not be called upon what we really have. I do not know how to bear the burden. If prices are rising any member of Parliament could vote to and wages are frozen, then it is the big deny us of the opportunity of seeing a body of workers who are carrying the restored Barracks Archway. burden. Why should they be working Mr. Brand: I think that costs too much. [ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. 1. W. MANNING: It seems the look back on the events of the past, and general public is somewhat disinterested the old archway certainly fills the bill in in whether or not the arch should remain. this regard. At the moment it appears this is an argu- ment or a contest between the member for It is even now of some value as a Fremantle and his supporters on. the one historical tourist attraction, and the hand, and the National Trust and the further we go into the future the greater We-stern Australian Historical Society and will be its value in this respect. The their supporters on the other hand. It tourist is always looking for something would seem to me that we in Parliament different. No other capital in Australia might be influenced by the view we have has anything like King's Park, and no of the archway, and our degree of hostility other Australian city has anything like towards it st-ems from what we are able the old arch. Why not let us make some- to see when we look out of our office in- thing of it; keep it where it is; tizzy it dows. up a bit: plant trees around it; wave the national flag from its battlements; and The SPEAKER: Before I leave the Chair let us be proud of it. Let us look as if I would remind members that the Minister we are proud of it, and then when the for Works will be showing, in the members' tourist comes he can truthfully say that common room at 6.50 p.m., a film pro- Western Australia is different and that it duced by the Harbour and Light Depart- is a place well worth visiting. ment on boat safety. In view of the fact that the film might run a little longer Mr. Court: I'll say it is different; but I than is anticipated I will now leave the do not think the tourist would come to Chair until the ringing of the bells. see the arch. Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 7.34 p.m. Mr. I. W. MANNING: I say again that people do not really appreciate what the Mr. 1. W. MA.NNING: Before the tea tourist looks for. He does not want to see suspension I was saying that I believed something he has at home: he wants to members are, to some extent, influenced by see something different. I would go so what they see of the archway when they far as to say that if we were to establish look out of their office windows. I have a roadway across the desert, the tourist some sympathy for the Premier in this would travel across it just to see what the regard, because from his window the arch- desert looks like. if we have something way is a. rather horrifying sight. However, other places do not have, then the tourist from my office I can see the top of the will come here to see it. archway as it peeps over a very attractive treetop, and it looks all right to me. The value Parliament places upon historical things will be reflected in the Mr. O'Neil: The tree or the arch? community; just as the concern of the Mr. I1.W. MANNING: It is not easy a community for various problems is reflec- the moment for a layman to imagine what ted in Parliament. If Parliament places the rehabilitation of the archway will value on the preservation of the arch, achieve, but I feel confident that some- this will be reflected in the community and thing very worth while will emerge. It the people in the State will also see value looks all right to me from the Terrace. in it. If the motion of the member for Fre- When I spoke on the previous debate in mantle is carried with support from the 1960 1 said I considered the archway should Government side, I am afraid a great deal remain because, among other things, it is of misgiving will be created in the minds at the terminal of the Terrace, and it of members of the public and, in particular, serves to turn the traffic left into Malcolm in the minds of those earnest people who Street or, if necessary, to divide it from devoted so much time and energy in seek- that which goes into Elder Street. If the ing to retain the arch and retain it on archway were not there, then some other its present site. These people are now barrier would have to be erected. counting on Parliament to stand firm and Also the very building itself tends to blot insist on the Government going on with out the freeway behind it and hide the the proposed rehabilitation work. scars on the Parliament House side of the cutting. It would, too, I think, serve to In the arch, as I have stated before, cushion the noise from the freeway which I believe we have something that has could be heard in the city or, at least, at character. It is historical and it is unusual. the top end of the Terrace. I believe it canl be made beautiful. I am appealing to this House to preserve it on Particularly, however, I am kindly dis- its site and make something of it. I am posed towards retaining links with the supported in this view, I know, by many past, and surely some part of the Barracks qualified People, including town planners -we have only a small portion left-could and landscape architects. I say again that be retained to illustrate some of the history if at this point of time we demolish the of the State. History, I might mention, is archway, even with a view to re-erecting a sequence of events over a long period of it somewhere else, we will still be taking time. At Some point we must be able to down something which is of value to us, [Wednesday, 11 September. 1968.] 1043 something which has the enthusiastic sup- point of time, that is the end of the build- port of a great number of people in the ing, and I feel in those circumstances we community. I feel that if we did this, would be entirely wrong, because too many Parliament would be going back on a deci- people desire it to be left standing where sion it has already made in respect of it is. We made a decision only two years the arch, and I appeal to members to ago, and surely we are going to stand by give very careful consideration before they that decision. decide the motion. I notice an amendment on the notice paper which gets away from the Barrack MR. W. A. MANNING (Narrogin) 17.41 Street idea and proposes simply to Put it p.m.]: I could not let the motion be decided anywhere. I certainly hope that no mem- too quickly, because I feel I should say a ber will move a motion or an amendment few words on it. There is no need to shift suggesting that the arch should be shifted the arch. If some need, or some particu- to some unknown site. if it is necessary lar reason, existed for doing so-if it were to debate the matter twice in order to in the way or obstructing something- keep the arch in its present position, bow there might be some merit in the motion many times will it be necessary to debate put forward by the member for Fremantle. it if we agree to put it in an unknown site As a matter of fact, in his speech he really to be determined? For every site that is defeated his own motion because he mentioned we will have to have a debate. described the arch as a lavatory in the If we are to earn our pay, it would be desert. If it is a lavatory where it is, it better if we got down to matters more im- will still be a, lavatory in Barrack Street, if portant than deciding the site of the he has his motion. Barracks Arch. (Laughter.) Mr. Brady: Well spoken. Mr. W. A. MANNING: That is the Mr. W. A. MANNING: I think the arch English language; I cannot help it. has some tourist value. What do tourists Mr. Court: This is a serious matter. look for? They look for something peculiar. It is perfectly true that they Mr. W. A. MANNING: When the previ- look for something different. ous decision was made, a public opinion poll was taken and the result was that 49 Mr. Bovell: Bring them up to Parliament Per cent. wanted the arch sited where it House. is; 35 per cent, wanted it demolished; and Mr. W. A. MANNING: Perhaps that is 5 per cent. wanted it removed. That is a something different. However, there is not very Poor percentage on which to base a one other arch like this in the rest of the motlon-5 per cent. There is no justifi- world. Why destroy it when there is no cation whatever for the honourable mem- point in doing so? ber submitting a motion of this nature. I point out to members that-when the M%1r.Nalder: A lot of the members of the Eiffel Tower was built in Paris, it was such public have changed their views since then. a monstrosity that the authorities decided Mr. W. A. MANNING: Yes, I think quite to pull it down. However, people were in- a few people have decided the arch should terested in the Eiffel Tower, and it is the remain where it is because it is not ob- greatest tourist attraction in Paris at the structing anything. To say it is obstruct- present time. ing Parliament House from the Terrace is Mr. Dunn: No it is not! a lot of rot. It does look ugly from Par- Mr. W A. MANNING: We could argue liament House at the moment, but the forever oni that. rehabilitation has not been concluded, so what else can we expect? Our Parliament Mr. Court: it all depends how old you House is not so good that a little bit of are. obstruction will do it any harm; and it is Mr. W. A. MANNING: The arch has a a usual feature to have huge buildings value, because it relates to the Past history obscured to some degree so that only of the State. I have said it is peculiar, portion of them can be seen. perhaps in construction and position, and As members know, I was overseas last definitely in its history, and I feel that year and I found that some of the Par- these are the very things that tourists liament Houses in adjacent countries were look for. of a quality far beyond ours; so!I feel there Some people ask what is going to be is no justification for destroying an old done with it and what people see in it. I building or removing it simply because of should like to make a suggestion. One the view of Parliament House. of the best things which could happen would be for us to get the People in If we leave the arch where it is, there is charge of Madame Tussaud's waxworks no reason why, in a few years' time-say in London to prepare some figures which 10 to 30 years' time, or any time in the could be Placed inside the building. The future-it should not be removed if it be- figures could be dressed in the clothing comes obvious that it is of no use or inter- of the period and could especially depict est, or that it is obstructing something. the soldier-pensioners who occupied the However, once we destroy it now, at this barracks. 1044 1044[ASSEMBLY.]

Tils is the sort of thing which appeals I have listened to what has been said to tourists and depicts in a realistic form so far by various speakers and I say very what the People of the day were like. The definitely that no clear case has been figures in the waxworks. in London are made out to show that the decision taken very realistic. If appropriate figures were last time was clearly wrong and that ob- prepared for the arch it would bring the viously we should now do something to cor- whole story of the past to life in the rect the error. Barracks Arch-in the spot where many of at the time. It is worth while mentioning also that in the soldier-pensioners lived 1964 the National Trust of Australia Mr. Sewell: Could we put the Minister (W.A.) Act was enacted by tbhis Parlia- for Works there? ment. It was a, trust set up to look. after Mr. W. A. MANNING: A figure of the such matters as are listed in the schedule Minister for Works could be put there to the Act. In fact, the Act created a when he passes on, The people at trust which took over from an old associa- Madame Tussaud's waxworks are well tion. I am not sure of the precise name able to create figures which would depict of the association but in any event it was the true life of the time. constituted under the Associations In- corporation Act of 1895. I definitely oppose the motion for the demolition of the Barracks Archway with The objects of the trust are set out in the idea Of shifting it somewhere else. I the schedule. In fact, there is aLlong list consider we have something in the arch which goes on for some pages, as one which is well worth preserving as it is. would expect in such a case. It is clearly a body which has been set up to lay down MR. BERTRAM (Mt. Hawthorn) (7[48 guide lines as to what should be the proper P.m.]: Had somebody put the proposi- course of action to be taken in respect of tion to rme six months or so ago that I buildings and many other tbings of his- would be in this place and talking about torical importance. the Barracks Arch, I think I may have laughed with scorn. I did not expect that Since Parliament has gone to the trouble 51 members in the House would be occu- of creating the trust, I think it is im- pying the time of the House once again portant that we should follow along with within two years of having deliberated the thoughts of the trust in the absence on the question and having reached a of any clear case to show that we should determination. just push its recommendations or thoughts to one side. As I understand the position Mr. Sewael:. That is democracy. at the moment the trust's thinking in Mr. BERTRAM: I do not for a moment respect of the arch is that it should re- doubt the good motives of my colleague main where it is. in bringing the motion before the House, As far as I am concerned this is a but I am afraid that is about as far as I matter of some real persuasion and yet can go along with his thinking. As other another reason why I believe the motion members have indicated, I think Perhaps should be lost and the arch remain where he has been egged on by the daily irrita- it is.-at least until such time as the de- tion he experiences when, looking out of cision taken in 1966 has been given a, his office window, he sees something which chance to be either proved or disproved. is not very beautiful at all. On the con- AS another speaker said, once the arch has trary, it is a real eyesore when viewed been demolished it cannot be put back from our side. I refer, of course, to again, or it can be put back only at great the arch. Because he has been so irked, he has now come along to do something inconvenience and expenise. Perhaps it about it. In fairness to him, it should be would be that once it is gone, it is gone for remembered that when the matter was good. before the House in 1966, he was thousands Like every other question in life, I be- of miles away. lieve it should be given a fair trial, and It has been said that there is a large the arch just has not been given a fair number of new members in the H-ouse and trial. It is being paraded in all its worst they should be entitled to have a say in features at the moment. I say that we respect of the arch. it has been left in should give it a trial and perhaps at some its existing form since 1960, and no work- future time we could again deliberate on it. or very little work-has been done on it But for Heaven's sake we should not be since then. deliberating on it two years after a similar I do not think it is so much a question motion was brought before the House. of what new members might think about Better still, we should leave it to Some it on a personal basis. If the Parliament Organisation which has been constituted is going to revoke any decision, to have by an Act of Parliament to deal with it. a look at another proposition and reach Let us not waste our time here. a different decision in respect of any question-whether it is the arch or any People who have thoughts on the other question-there must be a sound arch think about it from all different case made out in support of the proposi- angles; for example, from the architectural tion. side or from the historical side. They are [Wednesday, 11 September, 1988-] entitled to view it from whichever aspect exactly what an ombudsman was commit- they wish. However it may well be that ted to perform whenever he was appointed the arch, which I am quite sure will be in any country. I made it my business to Preserved in its present position, will in study several books, one by Professor the fullness of time amount to a monu- Rowat and one by Professor Gelihorn and ment preserved for posterity, and in that I have been able to get a fairly clear fashion it will testify to the world and to picture of what is required of an ombuds- the people of Western Australia, and man and what he is supposed to do. In Perth in particular, the paramountcy of looking through the books I saw where the people over the Executive as war, ombudsmen have been appointed iii the evidenced in 1966. Scandinavian countries of Sweden, Fin- land, Denmark, Norway, and also in West Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr. Germany, and New Zealand; and, I under- Norton. stand, one has now been appointed in the PARLIAMENTARY COMMISSIONER United Kingdom. (OMBUDSMAN) When one reads the books and learns Appointment: Motion what the operations of the ombudsmen are and the effect they have, one is more or less Debate resumed, from the 4th September, directed to think that these are very on the following motion by Mr. Tonkin worth-while appointments to very success- (Leader of the Opposition): ful offices which are in operation in those That the effectiveness and un- countries. One is led to that conclusion by doubted success of Parliamentary a very searching analysis given by the very Commissioners (Ombudsmen) having eminent gentleman I have mentioned. been clearly established in all coun- tries where they have been appointed, I would like to make reference to one it is recommended to the Government or two extracts which I have taken from that steps be taken, as early as Professor Rowat's book, He says- Possible, to establish the office in this Australia has never been backward State so that our citizens may not in constitutional experience and legal continue to be denied the benefits reform. The colonies before Federa- which the existence of an ombudsman tion led the British Empire in estab- confers. lishing the secret ballot (still known in the U.S.A. as the Australian Ballot), MR. MePHARLIN (Mt. Marshall) [7.56 universal suffrage, statutory rights for p.m.]:* When members on the Opposition civil servants including discipline ap- side were talking to the motion the Leadtr peal boards, the alternative vote com- of the Opposition, the Deputy Leader of pulsory registration of voters and the Opposition, and I think the member compulsory voting. for Fremantle, made reference to the fact that at the Country Party conference held Later, with reference to the powers of an in July a motion was passed to the effect ombudsman, we find this- that the conference was in favour of the appointment of an ombudsman. This is The ombudsman has no power to correct. However, as everybody Is aware, reverse, quash or alter any decision, the conference is a gathering of members to award damages or give any other of the organisation from all parts of the form of remedy, or to amend any law State and agreement to a motion is a or regulation. His power is restricted reflection of the opinions or the thoughts to making recommendations, in the of those who were at the conference. first Place to the department or organ- isation concerned and to any relevant It is a recommendation to the parlia- Minister. He can make such recom- mentary party as to what their thinking mendations if he thinks that the mat- is. but it is not binding: it is purely a ter investigated was "contrary to recommendation. They then rely on their law", "unreasonable", "unjust", ",op- parliamentary members to regard their pressive", or "Improperly discrimnin- thoughts and give consideration to the atory," based wholly or partly on a recommendations, and apply them in the mistake of law or fact or simply manner in which parliamentary members wrong. think is suitable in the interests of the affairs of the State. F0urther on it states- When the question of an ombudsman The ombudsman is under a duty to comes before Parliament or is mentioned keep information secret if the circumi- in any other organisation, I think it is up stances of the case make this neces- to members to make some effort to under- sary. stand exactly what an ombudsman is. I The country in which an Ombudsman would say a lot of people are not com- operates that is nearest to Australia, is New pletely conversant with the functions of Zealand; and it is clearly shown by Pro- an ombudsman. fessor Gellborn and Professor Rowat in I am willing to admit that up until their books that the operations of the recently I was rather vague about lust ombudsman in that country have been 1046 045[ASSEMBLY.)I

most successful. In this, regard I should Further on the professor states- like to quote from Professor Rowat's book As we have seen, a citizen who seeks In reality these characteristics of Parliamentary petition or complaint bureaucracy in the Commonwealth though the local member and the re- are not preserved mainly for the con- sponsible Minister, has little prospect venience of the Government in power. of having the decision changed. For For they place serious difficulties in obvious reasons the Minister will in the way of the public's legitimate most cases adhere to his own decision access to information, its right to or stand behind his department's de- know in a democracy. cision. Where the decision has been committed to an independent tribunal All the Quotes I have wade indicate that it there is no doubt that where an ombuds- has been recognised that the man has been appointed his appointment Minister should not or cannot inter- has been successful, vene; only legislation can effect a and once made it has change. not been cancelled. Further on he states-- The countries which have appointed Even in the United Kingdom, which ombudsmen have been quite happy to has a highly skilled carry on with the office, and even in New and efficient Civil Zealand, where there was a change of Gov- Service, there have been instances of ernment after the first appointment of an abuse of power by civil servants. Ombudsman the incoming Government When the question of appointing an om- was still happy to carry on with the office. budsman came before the Parliament in However, I have a doubt in my mind that England mnany questions were asked, one at this point of time it is the right thing of which was- for us to do. In support of that propo- Will the office of Parliamentary sition, I would like to quote from Profes- Commissioner conflict with the doc- sor Gellhorn's book in respect of some re- trine of Ministerial responsibility?. marks passed by the Speaker of the House of Representatives in New Zealand (Sir The answer to this was-- Ronald Algie), a former law teacher- It already appears that this will be the main argument relied upon by The ombudsman system probably opponents of the institution of a would not work well everywhere. It Parliamentary Commissioner. It in- works well in New Zealand because vokes a hallowed constitutional we have a fine public service. Corrup- doctrine (though one which is often tion is so rate to be deemed virtually overlooked) and has an emotive non-existent. officials generally seek appeal. But we do not think that in to serve rather than to defeat citizens. this context it will bear examination. They give cases careful consideration, though of course that doesn't mean The second question asked was-- they invariably reach the best pos- Would the office of Parliamentary sible result. Our ombudsman may Commissioner diminsh the rights and stimulate officials to be even a little functions of members of Parliament bit better than they have been. But in the taking up of grievances on be- the ombudsman system is succeed- half of their constituents? ing here precisely because, really, there The answer to that was- isn't a staggering lot for it to do. We take the view that a Parliament- Because of that I am of the opinion that ary Commissioner (who received if at this point we in Western Australia complaints only through members of were to appoint an ombudsman, no doubt, Parliament) would reinforce the rights for a start, he would have a rush of work: and effectiveness of members of Par- but I would think that, in a very liament rather than dimlnsh them. short period of time, the rush would sub- They would still receive and deal with side and we would have an officer drawing the complaints and would, as at pres- whatever salary Parliament saw fit to grant ent, settle most of them satisfactorily him, and having an office staff, with re- with the Minister. latively little to do. The next point raised was-- At this stage I would prefer to see a Civil servants will not be able to do standing committee appointed to investi- their work properly with the threat gate any complaints that the citizens of of an outside investigation always this State may wish to make. The mem- hanging over them-they will be even bers of such a standing committee would more frightened of making decisions. not need to be paid salaries. I suggest it could be composed of three members of The answer to that proposition was- Parliament, who are already drawing a These same fears were expressed by reasonable salary, and their appointment civil servants in Denmark when the to such a standing committee would give appointment of a Parliamentary Com- them something extra to do--perhaps missioner was being discussed. in the something extra which would not hurt outcome they have not been realised. them. This is what I would prefer to see [Wednesday, 11 September. 1968.] 1047 at the moment although, as I said, where- is not sufficient land available as a result ever an ombudsman has been appointed of departmental bottlenecks. That is one such appointment has been successful. reason why I think a parliamentary com- Another factor is that we have a much missioner, or an ombudsman-whatever smaller population than New Zealand. We one likes to term him-should be ap- have not yet reached the 1,000,000-mark, pointed. I think he would be able to do a our population being something like good job in a situation such as this. He 850,000, whereas New Zealand has a popu- could investigate all of the activities in re- lation of 2,500,000, or thereabouts. The lation to the land question. Speaker of the New Zeland Parliament It has been said that a member of Par- said that the ombudsman system is suc- liament has the right to work for his con- cessful in New Zealand, but, although it stituents, and that he does this when a is successful, really there is not a stagger- constituent asks for something to be done. ing lot for the Ombudsman to do. If, with The member concerned can approach the a population 2,500,000, an ombudsman has Minister or a department to get informa- not a staggering lot of work to do-and tion. But there is a limit to what a mem- there is little difference between the Gov- ber can do, as members on both sides will ernment and the civil servants in this agree. We reach a stage where certain country, and their counterparts in New information is channelled to us but we can Zealand-I cannot see that if an ombuds- go no further, except to raise the question man were appointed in this State he in the House. But that is not sufficient. would have much to do. In Preference to As a member of this Parliament I do not the appointment of an ombudsman I have the right to go to a department and would favour the appointment of a stand- look through files to find out exactly what ing committee such as I have suggested. is wrong in a Particular case. If an om- budsman, or a parliamentary commissioner MR. LAPHAM (Karrinyup) [8.9 pm.]: were appointed, he would be able to in- 1 did not intend to speak to the motion vestigate the whole matter; there would but I believe that those who are opposed be no comparison with the system under to the appointment of an ombudsman are which we operate at the moment and the really opposed to it without having given one which would operate if a parliamen- a great deal of thought to the matter or tary commissioner were appointed. to the power with which he will be cloth- ed. The fact that the person who is Only a few days ago the Minister re- appointed is being referred to as an presenting the Minister for Police and ombudsman seems to have frightened the Traffic laid on the Table of the House the opposition. financial statement and balance sheet of the City of Perth Parking Fund. I was Mr. Dunn: Which opposition? rather interested in the accounts and I Mr. LAPHAM: Those who are opposed tried to ascertain the financial position to the appointment of an ombudsman. from the information that was made They seem to be frightened of the name, available. A quick perusal of the accounts and that is why they are opposed to his indicated that there was a debit appointment. Like the member for Kal- balance of $167,829 transferred to adjust- goorlie, I believe the name is an unwise ment account. From that I gained the im- choice and it would have been preferable pression-and believe me, I was not the to refer to the officer as a parliamentary only one who gained it because the figures commissioner. Such a person should have were quoted in The West Australian or the the Power to make investigations at de- Daily News-that the City of Perth Park- partments, to call for files, and to check. on ing Fund had made a loss of $167,829 for any bottlenecks that might have occurred, the year. or are still continuing, in certain depart- However, having thoroughly perused the ments. accounts-and I could only peruse the In this regard I would refer particularly items that were submitted in the state- to those departments responsible for town ment. because I have not the right to look planning, because to my mind there seems into all the details of the parking fund to be a complete bottleneck in regard to accounts, or to peruse those accounts-I subdivisions of land. The question of would like further details to finally ascer- land, and the lack of subdivided land, has tain the correct position of those tran- been a topic for a good deal of debate sactions for the year. since the opening of Parliament, and I I found that the statement submitted is think we have reached the conclusion that called the Receipt and Expenditure land for purchase is in short supply. There Account and includes items such as princi- is no doubt a vast quantity of vacant land pal repaid, which is normally a capital is still available in Western Australia, but expenditure. Further, under the heading the land which is vacant is not available "Parking Areas," construction and im- for purchase. provements has been included, which again I have often asked myself why such land is a capital expenditure. There is also an is not available. Surely there must be item dealing with the purchase of motor something wrong with our departments scooters, and here again it is a capital ex- which are in control of this matter if there penditure, as is the purchase of meters 1048 [ASSEMBLY.) and the purchase of land. These are all The departments which deal with town capital expenditure items, and yet all these planning and metropolitan region aff airs expenses have been included in what pur- must agree there is ample vacant land Ports to be a revenue account to show that available around the metropolitan area. the Parking fund had a loss of $167,829 for Everywhere we go there is vacant land, the 12-month period under review. but it is not possible to find such land for When the matter is set out in true sale. This is certainly a problem. accounting form we find that the total Even in Kan'inyup recently land was receipts amount to $644,174, but the ex- sold for more than $8,000 a block. The penditure is different entirely. If the auctioneers and the owners were amazed capital expenditure is not included, and at the price the land fetched. This all the depreciation of that capital expen- indicates that the people are land hungry; diture only is included, there is a surplus that there is not sufficient land available for the year of $277,098. for sale; and for this I blame the fact that the land is not subdivided quickly enough. So, from the statement submitted and laid on the Table of the House, we have Since I have been a member of Parlia- on the one hand a debit balance of ment numbers of people have been seek- $167,829; and yet when the accounts are ing subdivisions without any success at all. prepared in a proper accounting form we In such circumstances an ombudsman or have a surplus of $277,098. parliamentary commissioner could only act to our advantage; he certainly would Accordingly I can do no more than raise not act to our disadvantage. the matter in this House. If, however, we We are rapidly reaching the stage in had an ombudsman, or a parliamentary Western Australia of running up against commissioner, he could look into this ques- a number of problems, and if we worked in tion, because as I see it this fund is a co-operation with an ombudsman it would semi-local authority fund, and it should be very helpful to us in overcoming quite be presented in such a form as to prevent a number of the growing pains we are ex- any confusion at all. periencing today. As a matter of fact Professor Sidebot- torn, who is Professor of Accountancy in MR. GRAYDEN (South Perth) (8.22 the Victoria University at Wellington, p.m.]: I want to say at the outset that I maintains that it is necessary for local intend to support the motion. I do so authorities to present their accounts in with some qualifications, because I believe such form that any layman can fully study that in certain circumstances the appoint- and understand them. I think that is a ment of an ombudsman in Western Aus- very laudable aim for any local authority tralia would be quite unnecessary. to follow. The other night the Minister for Indus- It would appear to me that the organ- trial Development pointed cut at length isation controlling the City of Perth Park- that we were a relatively small State, and ing Fund does not wish to disclose the yet we have 81 members of Parliament. true position because, as I said earlier, it It would seem in these circumstances that shows a figure in its accounts as a sub- if members were doing their job adequately stantial loss which, when analysed, is really there would be no need for an ombudsman. a substantial profit. I go along with this argument; I think it is extremely good. If that situation ob- I merely use this illustration to indicate tained, and if members of Parliament could the sheer necessity for an ombudsman or a air grievances adequately, there would be parliamentary commissioner. He wouldbe no occasion to support a motion of this able to see exactly what is happening in kind. But I do not think that is the posi- the Government departments. I have had tion. innumerable complaints relating to local Before I proceed to that matter I would authorities, but I do not wish to itemise like to say that there are, of course, al- them at this stage, because that is not ternatives to the appointment of an om- necessary. budsman, and the establishment of a court As a matter of fact we get quite a of administrative equity is one such al- number of complaints in connection with ternative. I think the member for Floreat different things, and it is extremely diffi- mentioned this in his maiden speech, and cult for us as members of Parliament to coming from a European country he would find whether or not there is any truth be well acquainted with such courts, be- in these matters. We may be suspicious, cause these have been long established in but it is very difficult for us to really find most of the West European countries. out what is happening. If we are frus- There is an outstanding example of such trated and unable to discover the true a court in France; there is one in Ger- facts from the department, it is prefer- many; another in Italy: one in Austria. able in such circumstances to have an in- and others elsewhere. In Sweden, of vestigation made by a parliamentary com- course, there is a court of administrative missioner or ombudsman. He could also equity which, in certain circumstances. quite easily see just how efficient the de- can do a job similar to that of an ombuds- partinents are. man. This court is appointed in addition [Wednesday, 11 September, 1968.1 104914 to the ombudsman, and it is found there, dously salutary effect on the actions of strangely enough, that the ombudsman Government departments. Accordingly I and the court of administrative equity do do not think for one minute that the not overlap in their functions. arguments put forward are tenable. I mention that to show that were we in Another argument that was put for- Western Australia to appoint an ombuds- ward was that If we had an ombudsman in man it would certainly leave the way open Western Australia it was likely that the jn the future for the appointment of a members of Parliament would not do their court of administrative equity, without the job. I would dismiss that out of hand, be- functions of those two bodies necessarily cause members have quite enough to do, in overlapping. my experience, without having to take up I do not know whether the Government various little grievances which come f or- has said it proposes to give consideration ward from day to day. I do not for one tc the appointment of such a court, but moment suggest that members object to I do know that this Is at the back of the doing this, but they do these things in minds of one or two of the Ministers. If order to obtain justice for the in- we had a clear-cut assurance from the dividuals concerned. Government that it would give considera- It is, however, a long and arduous pro- tion to the appointment of such a court I cess for a member of Parliament to ob- would not be supporting this motion. In tain justice when faced with difficult cir- the absence of such assurance from the cumstances, but an ombudsman would find Government I feel morally obliged to sup- this relatively simple. Every member has port the motion for a number of reasons had the experience of writing letter after which I will recount later. letter in connection with matters of one When the Minister for Industrial De- kind and another, and eventually he has velopment was speaking against the motion built up a file about two inches thick, and the other night he introduced a number of has got nowhere in the process. arguments which are commonly thrown up So I do not go along with that argument in opposition to the appointment of an om- at all. The main argument put forward by budsman, and one such argument was the the minister for Industrial Development question of ministerial responsibility. was that in view of the fact that 'we have This is more or less a catchcry which is so many members of Parliament here- frequently used, though I do not think any- there are 51 in the Legislative Assembly body has ever bothered to define what it and 30 in the Legislative council-it was really means. on analysis it does not really incumbent upon members to air their mean anything, because obviously a gievances in this Parliament if they had Minister cannot be held responsible for the constituents who came UP against malad- action of every individual in the depart- ministration in the Government depart- ment he administers. He certainly cannot ments and felt aggrieved as a result. be held responsible for the acts of omis- sion I think this Is fundamentally wrong of all such individuals in his depart- for two or three reasons- Firstly, if that ment, and I do not think it is reasonable were the situation and members were en- that he should be held responsible. couraged to do this repeatedly, we would The Minister for Industrial Develop- find that the entire time of this Parlia- ment also mentioned that the appointment ment would be taken up on issues of that of an ombudsman would ultimately usurp kind. Nobody can convince me that it the powers of Parliament. That again will is desirable that this Parliament should not stand up to analysis, because after all waste its time hearing cases of that kind- an ombudsman can only make recommen- cases that could well be handled by an dations to Parliament; he is actually the ombudsman. It is fundamentally unsound agent of Parliament. to suggest that members bring such things forward and so be precluded from devot- In New Zealand, for instance, hundreds ing adequate time to the more important of eases are dealt with each year, and yet issues which concern the State. we find that not more than two cases would be recommended to Parliament-, and Secondly, the argument is unsound for I am not sure whether that number would other reasons, particularly as in recent be recommended. There have been years years mn the State Parliaments-no doubf where no recommendations have been it happens in the Federal Parliament too made to Parliament at all by the omnbuds- -we have Introduced party discipline to man in connection 'with cases that have a far greater extent than was the case been dealt with, because it has been found in former years; and certainly to a far in practice that, when the ombudsman in- greater extent than was intended when tervenes and goes into a question with the Parliament was first conceived. I have no department responsible, the department doubt that when the institution of Parlia- concerned can either justify its actions or ment was first set up it was not for one merely bow to the wishes of the om- moment thought we would reach the stage budsman. We also know that such inter- where party discipline would loom as large vention by an ombudsman has a tremen- as it does today. 140) 1050 1050ASSEMBLY.)

I do not suggest that someone controls We have changed the original concept of us with an iron hand and says, "You Parliament, we have got right away from vote that way." That does not happen; this being a free and deliberate Assembly. but let us examine what does. For ib- As the Leader of the Opposition said, stance, if 1. as the member for South one cannot obtain justice and law in this Perth, brought forward some of the cases Parliament, because all members know I have-the Minister for Industrial De- the consequences of party discipline. Of velopment suggested precisely this and course, there is a way of overcoming this. said if we do not do so We are virtually For instance, the Premier in respect of the failing in our duty as members and it Liberal Party, the Leader of the Country is incumbent on all members to do this- Party in respect of his party, and the and spoke upon them at length, Leader of the Opposition in respect of his I would be criticising my own Minis- party, could bind members only so far as ters and the Government. This, in itself, party policy was concerned. I go the whole has a deterrent effect on members coming way with this, because if members are forward with cases of that kind. They elected on party policy they cannot in any simply do not do so for that reason. circumstances deviate from that Policy. I know perfectly well that If, by motion, In addition, if the Premier says some- I were to bring forward a ease, no matter thing in his policy speech, the Government how justified it was, the motion would members are elected on the policy of their not be carried. How, under these circum- party and the issues contained in the stances, can the Minister for Industrial policy speech. This also applies to mem- Development suggest we can obtain re- bers of the opposition in regard to any- dress for grievances? We will recall that thing put forward in the policy speech of when the Leader of the Opposition spoke the Leader of the Opposition. Members in on the Address-in-Reply he gave some this House should be bound on the party advice to new members of Parliament and policies and the issues to which they are said that they could not expect to get law committed through the policy speeches of or justice in this Parliament. their respective leaders, but on other mat- ters they should have a free and delibera- He is not alone in making this state- ment, because with party discipline as it tive vote. is, it is not possible, no Matter what the If this were the position, then to my case is, to have a case decided on its mind, there would be no need to appoint merits. This is a most undesirable thing an ombudsman or a court of administra- and it certainly cuts right across the argu- tive equity in a relatively small State such ment which has been produced by the as ours. However, in a bigger State or Minister for Industrial Development. country the situation could be entirely dif- I have some glaring cases which at the ferent. moment I would love to bring forward I suggest there is a way of meeting this as was suggested by the Minister for In- situation. When members are elected to dustrial Development. I would relish the this House they have to swear the oath of opportunity as it would mean I would be allegiance in accordance with our Consti- able to obtain some sort of redress for tution Act, and I suggest that we add the these individuals. I have a file two inches words, "swear to exercise a free and de- thick which goes back over two years In liberative vote on all matters other than respect of a case for which I have been try- those of party policy and issues to which ing to obtain a remedy in regard to in- I am committed." Then we would find equities that have taken Place. However, that members of Parliament would come I am not getting anywhere at all. into this Chamber and air their grievances, I know that if I bring it forward which would be decided by Parliament on by speaking in this Parliament, I will re- their merits. ceive no support, because there would In that way we would restore the original either be a vote in the party room and conception of Parliament and there would members would decide to do a certain be no need for the appointment of an thing, or. alternatively, members would ombudsman or to set up a court of not support me because they would feel administrative equity. In addition, the it would be unfair to the Minister con- Leader of the Opposition would not be cerned or to the Government-possibly obliged to get up and say that one cannot for good reason. expect to find law or justice in this Par- Mr. Fletcher: Why not change the liament. Government? I have described the situation as far as Mr. GRAYDEN: Irrespective of what- the obtaining of redress to grievances is ever Government it is, precisely the same concerned; so when the Minister for In- sort of situation exists. I am not suggest- dustrial Development comes along and vir- ing that this sort of thing happens in tually says to members they should air any respect of this Government only-it has grievances they have and if they do not happened in many Governments in this they are failing in their duty, he is quite State and in all the other States of Aus- wrong. As I said before, if we did this, tralia. we would find that members would not [Wednesday, 11 September, 1968.1 judge a case on its merits, but would vote They wrote to the Milk Board, on the 25th along party lines. Therefore we can dis- May, as follows:- miss that particular argument. We have recently received notifica- I think also that if Ministers were extre- tion from the Tender Board that we mely sensitive to injustice, there would be have lost the Mt. Henry Women's no occasion for an ombudsman or a court Home which we have served con- of administrative equity. I really believe tinuously for all but two years since this to be the position: but there are some It was opened. Sunny West now has Ministers in this Parliament who are in- the contract. We are confused. sensitive to justice, while others would We were given to understand that bend over backwards in an endeavour to the zoning plan applied also to Depots. do the right thing to remedy an injustice Some time ago you will recall, you if it were clearly pointed out to them. instructed us to stop serving N-gala Unfortunately, some Ministers, because Matheroraft Centre which we were of the multifarious duties they are called serving and for which we ten- upon to perform and the countless obliga- dered before the zoning plan was tions they have to accept, are not able started. We stopped, as per your to give sufficient attention to this sort of instructions, and now we see the thing, and as a result it is not possible for situation in reverse-we are being members to obtain justice. prevented (as a result of price cut- ting, in this case) from serving a I wish, in general terms, to give an ex- customer in our District (Canning ample of a case for which I do not hold 140), and a vendor without a licence the Minister responsible, but I would say for this district is now intending to this: It is typical of the sort of injustice serve it. that is happening in Western Australia and about which we are virtually unable The new contract commences this to do anything without embarrassing our coming Saturday, 1st June, and we own Ministers or the Government. would appreciate if you would clear up this matter before then, by either A milk vendor (Mr. Lewis) in my elec- advising Sunny West of the situation torate has operated in that area for many and instructing them to relinquish the years serving a great number of customers. contract, or advising us of your policy. The Milk Board decided it would rezone the metropolitan area. This milk vendor Also there is another matter-that used to serve the Ngal-a mothercraft ithat Brownes are serving some shops centre, which would take a substantial in South-Perth where we understand amount of milk each year, but because! they do not hold a licence. Perhaps that institution was situated 100 yards or you could sort this out too, as neither so outside this vendor's zone, he was told of these Vendors were serving in to stop serving it milk. He accepted this, as either of these districts before zon- did all other vendors accept a similar situa- ing commenced. tion. He also had a lot of other customers No reply was received to that letter, so outside his zone and was told to disc'on- wrote a very short let- tinue serving them, which he did, because the milk vendors he knew everybody else in his zone would ter on the 7th June, 1968, as follows- be required to do the same thing. In that We wrote you on 27th May regard- zone there were three other vendors beside ing the Contract for the Mt. Henry Mr. Lewis. The matter to which I am re- Women's Home and other matters- ferring took place about three months ago. As of this date, we have not received The position was clarified with the Milk any acknowledgement from you. Board, which said no-one else was per- neither have we received any indica- mitted to go into the zone of these four tion that these matters are being, or vendors. However, we find that Sunny have been handled. West, a big milk firm, tendered to supply the mt. Henry Home. Would you please let us know what is happening? That particular home takes 1,800 gal- lons of milk a month and is situated They then received a letter, written on the within the zone of this particular milk 11th June, as follows:- vendor. Notwithstanding the fact that Receipt is acknowledged of your let- several vendors were entitled to tender, ter of 25th regarding the alleged price Sunny West was successful. The milk cutting by Sunny West and the sub- vendors in the zone immediately took sequent !oss to you of hospital trade. the question up with the milk Board and said, "You stopped us serving outside I wish to advise that enquiries are our zone, and yet you allow Sunny West being made with the Treatment Plants to supply milk within our zone. What Association and the Board will take are you going to do about it?" I think such action as considered necessary at this stage I will read a letter that was when details are to hand. written to the Milk Board by these ven- You will be informed of the results dors. of the enquiry in due course. 1052 052[ASS]EMBLY.]

Mr. Lewis then wrote back to the Milk We served the Mt. Henry Home from Board as follows:- the time it was opened, and the loss We are in receipt of your letter dated of this contract is a loss to us of 1800 11th June, but it appears that you gallons of trade per month, and we have misunderstoood the purpose of feel that is worth doing something our letter dated 25th May. about. We are not over-concerned regard- The Milk Board has done NOTHING. ing "price-cutting". This was merely We wrote to the Chairman again on an aside remark in brackets. What 22nd July and have not received any 'we are concerned about is the Milk reply. Board's inconsistency in the adminis- Can you help us, please, or advise tration of its policies concerning zon- us who can? ing. I want to say, in fairness to the Minister, I would like to recall to your memory I then passed the matter to the Minister that when zoning was suggested to the and no doubt he is making inquiries. I Vendors, both you and Mr. Buzwell hope he will do something about it. This emphasised that the Vendors would be is an instance where the vendor had some protected inasmuch that the depots sort of appeal: he could have appealed to would NOT be allowed to go into zoned the Minister. I am speaking tonight to in- areas for which they did not hold a dicate the sort of thing which is happening Vendor's licence. In view of this, we repeatedly. That is only one case of many did not object to being stopped from 1 have, and as an example of what is hap- serving N-gala Mothereraft Centre, pening in Government departments. for which we had the contract at the The Minister for Industrial Development time of zoning, but now that this situ- said that every time we get. a case such as ation is reversed we do have an objec- this we should bring it forward and air it tion. in this House. I will take the Minister UP We wrote to you immediately we on that and I assure him he will hear were notified that Sunnywest intended plenty of these cases. delivering in this zone, so that you Mr. Rushton: Did you see the Chairman would have ample time to contact of the Milk Board? Sunnywest and advise them that they Mr. GRAYDEN: I have had a lot of were not in a position to accept the experience with the Chairman of the Milk contract in question. Board, and I am not prepared to negoti- I trust that you now understand ate with him. The Minister said that if what our complaint is, and realise that we do not bring these matters forward we there cannot be one rule for one and are failing in our responsibility. I will another rule for another, and that the relish the opportunity, but I point out that present situation will be put right as in the process of bringing these cases requested. forward I will indirectly reflect on the Our lettter also stated that another Ministers. I repeat that it will be indirect, depot (Brownes Dairy) has come into as is the case with the Milk Board. Because South Perth district and is serving of maladministration within the Milk some shops. You did not reply regard- Board one of my constituents is greivously ing this, either. affected, but nothing has been done by the Milk Board to rectify this situation. And so the correspondence went on. Of course, nothing has been done. He wrote I do not want to air these grievances me a very long letter on the 25th June, every time they occur. I think Parliament but I will not read it because I do not want would be better off if it were free of these to unduly waste the time of the House. on complaints so that it could concentrate on the 28th August he wrote to me as fol- more important things. However, from now lows:- on I shall bring my grievances forward. We wrote to you on 25th June, and Mr. Hall: What about introducing liaison I contacted you by 'phone on several officers? One was recently appointed by occasions regarding the Milk Board the Lands Department. permitting a depot to deliver milk in Mr. GRAYDEN: When there are so an area for which they have no licence. many cases-and there is a multitude of them-why could not an ombudsman take On 27th June the Milk Board wrote these matters out of the realms of this and informed us that "blanket licenses Parliament? Why should we hold the Mini- previously held by all treatment plants ster for Agriculture responsible for every were all withdrawn at the time of zon- action of the Milk Board. We should not. ing". To my mind it is absolutely stupid, and However, despite the fact that we that is why I believe we should have an advised them a week before the new ombudsman or a court of administrative contracts commenced, they have equity to handle these things. allowed Sunny West Dairies to serve To illustrate the type of injustice which the Mt. Henry Home at Canning exists, I will quote another case. I have Bridge for three months now. a file two inches thick on this case but I [Wednesday. 11 September, 1968.3 151053 certainly will not read the letters, because inquiry. In addition, I have a medical cer- they cover several pages in some cases. I tificate in front of me to verify that he can assure members that after two years was suffering from laryngitis. I have got absolutely nowhere with this case, and I will never get anywhere with So this man appeared before the court it. Nor could anyone else in this Parlia- of marine inquiry suffering from a nervous ment while we have our present system of breakdown; he was dragged from the psy- party discipline. At present, irrespective chiatric ward; he was hardly able to speak of the issue, voting is along party lines. because he was suffering from laryngitis: In those circumstances, how can one obtain and he had recently been operated on for redress for a constituent? That is why I a double hernia. Also, he had no-one say that if we swore, in our Oath of to represent him. Allegiance, to exercise a free and delibe- rative vote on all matters except those to He went to the Legal Aid Bureau but which we are committed, then we would he was told that because he had received have a free and deliberative vote on these notice to appear in court only two days issues and there would be some point in before, there was no time to represent having a Parliament, and there would be him. He did not receive the notice to no need for an ombudsman or a court of appear in court until two days before he administrative equity. had to appear, because the notice was sent I say this because if we were able to to his home whereas he was in hospital. introduce this sort of thing it would When the letter subsequently found its way have a very salutory effect on Government to him be got leave from the hospital and departments, and maladministration would went to theL Legal Aid Bureau. However, not occur so often. This, of course, would as I have said, the bureau told him there be precisely the effect of an ombudsman was not sufficient time to defend him. So and after a couple of years, perhaps, there be went to the court in the condition would bd no point in retaining his services. which The salutory effect he would have on Gov- I have described. ernment departments would probably mean The magistrate who conducted the a tremendous reduction in maladministra- inquiry went oxit of his way to state that be tion. How on earth could the Chairman of attached some significance to the fact that the Milk Board expect to get away with a the other person involved had witnesses case such as I have mentioned if he knew it could be submitted to an ombudsman? and legal representation. He pointed this out and said that if Page had brought A .further case I wish to mention is along witnesses the situation might have one which I have ventilated in Parliament before. I have also written a number of been different. The magistrate disbelieved letters, but have got nowhere. I refer that Page had left the Mends Street Jetty to Mr. George Page, another constituent five minutes before the other boat with of mine, who was the master of . vessel which he collided. which took passengers between Perth and Rottnest. He was involved in a minor However, in the meantime, five indivi- collision in the Swan River and lost his duals have come forward and have put license for life, with no appeal- He cannot it in writing that Page did, in fact, leave appeal under any circumstances. the jetty five minutes before the other It was an extraordinary case and was boat. These witnesses included the person heard by a court of marine inquiry-_for who was running the kiosk, and other which I have the greatest respect. How- people employed on and around the jetty. ever, there are special circumstances Page had a slower boat and was overtaken associated with this case. The master of by the other boat, yet he was blamed for the vessel with which he collided has had deliberately colliding with the other vessel, similar collisions with other vessels, yet the which left five minutes after him. individual"I am talking about has lost his license for life and has no means of appeal. Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Do you seriously think an ombudsman would return that I have been writing letters and doing gentleman's certificate? everything I possibly can but I have got precisely nowhere. The circumstances Mr. GRAYDEN: I will finish this argu- are that when the court of marine inquiry ment and then return to that question. was held the individual concerned was a This is a case I have ventilated, but I have Patient in the psychiatric ward of the been unable to get anywhere with it. The Repatriation Hospital. suffering from a Western Australian Marine Act, however, nervous breakdown. The Inquiry was held provides for a rehearing in such circum- some considerable time after the accident. He was an ex-Navy man and as a result stances, and I ask the House to listen to of his accident he subsequently went bank- what is contained in section 106 of that rupt. Act, which reads as follows:- Two weeks before the inquiry he had an The Governor may, where any such operation for a double hernia, and he was inquiry as aforesaid has been made, drugged to the ears at the time of the order the case to be reheard by a 1054 1054ASSEMBLY.1

Court of Marine Inquiry, either gener- In the group with me there were ally or as to any part thereof, and included amongst others a Mr. John shall do so if- Bridges and a Mr. Tom Sargent. And this is the significant part- Both of these men are members of the Perth Flying Squadron and ex- (a) new and important evidence, which could not be produced perienced Yachtsmen. at the inquiry, has been dis- Mr. John Bridges had been vice- covered: or commodore of the Flying Squadron. (b) for any other reason there Our attention was drawn to the has, in the opinion of the motor vessels Icatamaraire and Andrew, which were proceeding down -Governor, been ground for suspecting that a miscarriage river en route to Rottniest. of justice has occurred. Both vessels appeared to be off the normal course. Surely in the case I have outlined there were grounds for suspecting a miscarriage This is why our attention had been of justice! The circumstances were that drawn to the vessels. this man was taken from a psychiatric Normally the ferries to Rottniest take ward; he was recuperating from a hernia a course that would bring them further operation; he was suffering from laryn- off shore than the course taken by the gitis; and he was not offered any time Katamnaraire and the Andrew. in which to obtain witnesses or legal ad- In fact the vessels were so close vice. Would not those be reasonable inshore that they were only about two grounds for suspecting that a miscarriage hundred Yards from the Perth Flying of justice had occurred? Of course they Squadron at one point. would! The Katamaraire was closest in- therefore furthest off the Nevertheless, we have not been able to shore and get a rehearing of this individual's case. normal course. notwithstanding the provision in the ActI Apparently the Andrew, which I have quoted. understand was skippered by Mr. Page. had rounded the inner dolphin and Mr. Ross Hutchinson: And notwith- was making a bee line for Armstrong Standing the fact that we had this case Spit. exhaustively examined time and again to check There is no reason why this should the evidence you submitted. not be done particularly if you are Mr. GRAYDEN: I will return to that in a hurry although there are certain aspect later. To emphasisa my point I hazards. wish to quote again the following part of One of the hazards is the bank section 106 of the Western Australian which goes beyond the spit post and Marine Act:- for a large vessel could be too shallow The Governor may, where any such although it is sometimes possible to inquiry as aforesaid has been made, cut the bank and go across the order the case to be reheard by a shallow part. Court of Marine Inquiry, either gener- ally or as to any part thereof, and I and my friends were discussing shall do so if- the situation and it appeared to US that the Andrew was in a reasonable (a) new and important evidence, position but the icatamaraire was which could not be produced closer inland and did not appear to - at the inquiry, has been dis- be in such a reasonable position as covered; the Andrew. Now I shall deal with the interjection Because the situation was so un- made by the Minister. usual we continued to watch out Of Shortly after this accident occurred a curiosity:* gentleman came forward to give evidence. I saw the two vessels come close He was one of a group of people who,' from together at about three to four hun- the premises of the Perth Flying Squadron dred yards east of the club premises situated near Nedlands, saw the accident aind about two hundred Yards from happen. This gentleman is Reginald the north bank. Carlyle Ward, of 36 York Street. Subiaco. Because the incident was unusual He Is a retired civil servant, and we were discussing the reasons for it an ex-commodore or a vice commodore and I suggested that the two vessels of' this club, and a very responsible in- must be exchanging baggage. dividual. He made the following state- I thought that probably somebody ment: from the Andrew had either left bag- On the day in question I and a gage behind and the Katamaraire was number of other members of the Perth transferring it to the Andrew. Flying Squadron were on the club At the time -that we were looking Premises. my impression is that there was about I had a good view of the river. one third of the Andrew showing (Wednesday, 11 September, 1968.1 151055

ahead of the Katamaraire when the court of equity. Alternatively, we should boats appeared to converge. I still amend our Constitution Act so that mem- have this impression. bers will be obliged to swear that they will If this is so then the Katamaraire exercise a free and deliberative vote on all must have been the overtaking ves- issues other than those that are dealt with sel, at least at this Point. I do not according to party policy. Other than that know what went on before this. we will have to appoint Ministers who are The overtaking vessel should always particularly sensitive to justice and public give the vessel it is overtaking plenty opinion. If action were taken along any of water in which to move. one of the lines I have suggested this would suit me, but in the absence of such This in tact did not occur. action I am afraid, as a matter of con- It looked as though tjhe Katamaraire science, I have no option but to support was pushing the Andrew up so that the motion. he could get around closer to the spit post. The motion will not be carried, however, That is a sworn statement. because it is purely a recommendation to the Government, which will have several The SPEAKER: The honourable mem- courses of action open to it. I hope it ber has five more minutes. will adopt one of them in order that this Mr. GRAYDEN: He knew nothing about Parliament may function properly, as was the case, but, with other people, he came originally intended. Even if the motion forward and gave evidence. Also, five in- were carried the Government would not dividuals who were at the Mends Street be bound to put it into effect. jetty came forward to give evidence to say that, in fact, the Andrew did leave I am greatly concerned about the matters five minutes before the Katamaraire, but I have brought before the House this this evidence was disbelieved by the court. evening, but I do not hold the Government Here are all the facts which wan-ant a or the individual Ministers responsible rehearing of the case, but I have been for what has happened. I have cited these unable to obtain a rehearing, So I will do cases, because members are placed in a what the Minister says and raise the foolish situation when they have to ven- matter in Parliament, because this is the tilate grievances of the kind I have out- sort of thing on which Parliament should lined. However, if we are not to have make a decision. some means of obtaining justice I, per- son ally, will continue to bring such cases I want to point out to the House that before Parliament. For these reasons, I similar cases are happening all the time. shall support the motion. I do not hold the minister responsible, because I know he referred this case to the Crown Law Department, but what that MAR. DAV IES (Victoria Park) (9.10 p.m.: department and other departments do is To say the least, this is not a new question. back up their earlier decisions. As you well know, Mr. Speaker, it has been introduced on a number of occasions in the Mr. Ross 'Hutchinson: It was not an past-as was mentioned by the Minister earlier decision of the Crown Law Depart- for Industrial Development-and sub- ment. sequently articles in the Press, and the Mr. GRAYDEN: I do not know whether feeling of the general public far and wide, it was an earlier decision of the Crown have all been in support of the appoint- Law Department or not, but how it could ment of a person such as is proposed in discount that evidence, I do not know. I the motion. I think it will be found that have no time to talk about that this even- editorials in The West. Australian, the ing, but I will introduce the subject again Daily News, and The Australian, have all by way of a formal motion when the supported the appointment of omabuds- House will be able to discuss it at length, men. because this is the sort of case an ombuds- man could handle. I have here the February, 1967, issue cf Mr. Ross Hutchinson: You are setting an the Jaycees journal, which is called Enter- ombudsman above the court. rise. Members of the Junior Chamber of Commerce support the appointment of an Mr. GRAYDEN: I hope we can set up an ombudsman, and I have a number of news- ombudsman so that where there is a right paper cuttings with which I will not weary of appeal, cases such as the one I have the House, but the latest I would like to outlined can be heard by him. If we quote is one containing an article by Dr. bring these cases to Parliament we do not Jean Battersby, who is the project officer get anywhere with them because the vote with the third Duke of Edinburgh Con- is taken on party lines, regardless of ference. In an article submitted to the whether a member is in sympathy with Victorian Employers Federation Newsletter the case or not. she advocated the appointment of an om- In view of the circumstances I have out- budsman, and then went on to give some lined, I consider we should have in West- sound reasons why we should follow ern Australia either an ombudsman or a this procedure in Australia. [ASSEMBSLY.]

As I have pointed out, I think the only ruin; that the public were being controlled People who do not appear to agree with beyond a reasonable measure; and that the appointment of such a person are the the Public Service was getting out of hand. members of the Government and, like the That had the effect of winning the Gov- speaker who has just resumed his seat, I erniment for him. think the Government accepts this motion Mr. B~and: Was I not right about the as being one introduced on party lines. I socialism angle? did not think it would be accepted in this way, and I had hoped there would be a Mr. DAVIES; No. free vote on the motion, as there very Mr. Brand: I thought I read it in some often Is on private members' business. book which you had printed for your plat- However, the Government has decided to form. deal with it on party lines, and that is Mr. DAVIES: That is democratic social- entirely its business. We should have a ism. close look at the motion and note that it Mr. Brand: Socialism with a bit of makes only a recommendation. It does not direct the Government to do anything, nor colour, does it declare the Government shall take Mr. DAVIES: Let me remind the House any specific action. It is couched in that the Australian Labor Party publishes general terms, end whilst we are thankful the proceedings of all its conferences, in- to the member far Floreat for the very cluding Federal and State. We do not Interesting history he gave the other hold any secret sessions. Books are readily evening on ombudsmen in general, I think, available at Trades Hall, and the interpre- he was wirong in his criticism when he Laid' tation of various matters is there for all to the backbone of the motion was too vague. see. If the Premier wants an interpreta- It is deliberately meant to be vague so the tion of the subject he mentioned, he is Government, if it accepts the recom- welcome to it; but if he does not want to mendation, can take whatever action it take the trouble to obtain it then I can- wishes in order to appoint a parliamentary not assist him. commissioner. I wish the Liberal Party would do the The appointment of such a person would same thing and define "Private enterprise." come back to this Parliament and be de- It is a wonderful and a pious sounding ex- bated at length, but it is only the principle pression, and I have been trying to have we are dealing with at present. There has it defined for some time. The fact is we been some doubt aq to whether there is any are not debating that question at this point need for the appointment of such a Person of time, and r thank you, Mr. Speaker, for in Western Australia. I remind the House allowing me the latitude which you have. that an ombudsman, as is Proposed, would have power only in regard to Government The point is that the Government said departments. Members should divorce in 11159 we were over-governed. At that from their minds the thought of the time there were under the Public Service appointment of a person, such as has been Act 3,873 permanent and 891 temporary promoted by the Daily News, to inquire civil servants, making a total of 4,768. As Into every possible aspect of Government at the 1st July, 196B, there were 6,441 per- business and commercial enterprise. The manent and 965 temporary civil servants, ombudsman we propose should be making a total of 7,406. That is an in- appointed would deal only with parlia- crease of something like 3,700, or ap- mentary matters, and one wonders proximately 70 per cent. whether in a State of this size there is Let me remind the House that these need for such an officer. are Public servants employed under the Public Service Act, and the figures do not Earlier this year, on a completely take into account the employees of the different tack, I asked the Premier how various boards: the State Electricity Com- many civil servants were employed in this mission, the Milk Board, the Metropoli- State as at the Ist July, 1960, and on the tan Transport Trust, and all the others. 1st July, 1968. 1 took the year Z960 as the We all remember the document which was datum point, this being the year after tabled in this House last year; it showed labor went out of offle there were some 80 boards, excluding the Mr. Rushton: Were you not stagnant hospital boards, which were operating in then? You would not have needed many this State. If those boards had met on civil servants at that time. the minimum number of occasions re- quired under the Acts, the members Mr. DAVIES: Of course, it is pure non- would have received sitting fees of $80,000 sense to talk like that. If the member for a year. Dale is to continue indulging in cliches such as that he had better doze off again. Mr. Rushton: Are there not only two of If he wants to get into an argument about them left? that. I will argue it out with him on some Mr. DAVIES: The honourable member other occasion. I can recall the Premier has a shocking memory. The only one standing up in Forrest Place saying that that will be done away with-the relevant we were a Government of socialists; that Bill has not yet been passed by this Par- we were letting the country go to rack and liment-is the Argentine ant committee. (Wednesday. 11 September, 1968.J 10570'

Mr. Rushton: I thought you were talk- at their disposal to deal with their prob- ing about the hospital boards. lems. I cannot imagine the Minister for Industrial Development or the Minister for Mr. DAVIES: I excluded the hospital Forests telephoning the liaison officer of boards. the State Housing Commission to say that Mr. Brand: Do you think there are too some woman was being evicted in a fort- many civil servants? night's time, and to request the cormmis- Mr. DAVIES: I am not saying there are sion to supply her with a house. They too many civil servants. 1 expected that would pass such problems on to their sec- interjection and I shall deal with it at retaries to deal with. greater length on some future occasion. Whilst Ministers are able to accomplish The fact remains there is a large number a great deal because of the staff at their of boards in operation, many of which disposal, private members themselves have have been appointed as a result of legis- to do everything associated with the run- lation introduced by this Government. nling of an office, except type their letters. In the case of civil servants, there has Indeed, some of them even do that. Pri- been an increase of about 70 per cent. dur- vate members have to do their own filing, ing the period I mentioned, and there i s put through their own telephone calls, some concern regarding the control of the make their own queries, and make visits community by civil servants. We know personally. If a private member applies that most of the civil servants are dedi- himself to his electorate he has more than cated officers. enough to do. As the member for South Perth said, Mr. Bovell: There is a number of boards there are cases which take a considerable the members of whvich do not receive any amount of time to handle. Sometimes remuneration. after a private member has handled such Mr. DAVIES: That is an astounding cases for a year or two, he finds they are statement. It is quite true, but if the almost impossible to deal with. Minister looks at the document which has been tabled in this House he will find that The Minister for Industrial Development it disregarded such boards in the figures indicated that when the Bill was being that were supplied. Members of boards handled in the Norwegian equivalent of who receive some remuneration for at- Parliament, the responsible Minister was tending meetings would receive something not very entbusiastic about it. The Min- ister said the debate made enlightening like $80,000 a year if the boards met for reading, but I have not been able to find the minimum times mentioned in that an English translation of the debate. I document. understand the Minister for Industrial There is. considerable Government con- Development Is not able to read Norwegian, trol, and not all the officers who have so I do not know from where he got his administrative power arc perfect. They information. are only human, and there must be occa- The only reference I can find is in at sions when mistakes are made, whether book which has been mentioned in this they are made honestly or otherwise, and debate. It Is entitled Ombudsmen and there must be same right of appeal. Oth~ers. This book takes in nine European I thought the Minister for Industrial De- countries and deals with the rights of velopment promised to bring forward some private citisens. new thought on the matter when he Mr. Court: You were making the point sought the adjournment of the debate, but that I do not speak Norwegian, and with I am afraid he came up with the same that I agree. kind of answer which he gave on previous occasions; that is, Parliament is para- Mr. DAVIES: I could not find an English mount, and there is no need to worry translation of the debate the Minister re- about the righting of wrongs, because Par- ferred to. The only reference I could find liament has the Power to do that. is in the book I have just mentioned. on pages 156 and 157 the following appears:- I thought he reflected rather seriously Nearly two years of discussion pre- on members when he said that they would ceded Introduction of a partially re- tend to hand over the hard problems to draf ted Cabinet proposal in 1925. the ombudsman, and only deal with the During subsequent debate in the Stort- easy ones themselves. That was not a ing, Minister Of Justice Jens Hlaug- very fair statement to make, because he land, presenting the Cabinet's views, knows that all members of Parliament are stressed that the ombudsman was not hard workers and they do not try to pass to be a "super organ within the central the buck, although on many occasions they administration," but would simply would like to. "1protect the interests of the individual f the Minister was speaking as a Min- against all the mistakes that we know ister of the Crown when he east some re- are bound to occur within a large flections. on the problems which are dealt administration." Leading the discus- with by private members, let me remind sion for the then dominant Labor him that Ministers have considerable staff Party Representative Jakob Pettersen 1058 1058ASSEMBLY.]I

characterized the proposed ombuds- thought out idea it does not provide a man as "a sort of social worker for great opportunity for members to put persons who feel they have been their complaints before Parliament. treated unfairly by governmental officials," and said that he would need Of course members can deal with their "infinite patience and a good sense of general complaints in the Address-in-Reply humour" as well as sound judgment debate. In the last Address-in-Reply de- and legal knowledge. Representative bate I dealt with only two complaints, al- Lars Ramndal, speaking for the though I had eight to bring forward. I minority Liberal Party, declared that Norway fortunately possessed a con- am aware that during the debate on the scientious, capable civil service, but Estimates members can bring forward the that mistakes must inevitably occur in' complaints 'that have been missed during all human institutions and that an the debate on the Address-in-Reply. Once ombudsman could lessen the risk of again we are restricted to 45 minutes, and occasional misinterpretation of stat- members can gather plenty to say in that utes or lapses in official judgment: time. moreover, the ombudsman might greatly help "personnel In exposed Let me remind the Minister that in the positions" by sifting out "unsubstanti- last session of Parliament the time of ated complaints from habitual queru- speeches was cut down. I violently opposed lents." the lopping off of 15 minutes from It was following low-pitched discus- speeches in the Address-in-Reply and the sion of this tenor that the Norwegian Estimates debates. I worked it out that Parliament unanimously approved the debate on the Address-in-Reply this adoption of the ombudsman system. session would only have taken another two Nobody argued an urgent need. The hours if the time limit on speeches had machinery of government was mnerely not been reduced. The time limit on to be slightly refined rather than speeches on Estimates items has also been drastically remodelled. reduced. In my view the opportunity to bring matters before Parliament has been This indicates that the question of the restricted. If a private member brings a~ appointment of an ombudsman in Norway matter before Parliament, what is . he was dealt with on a very rational basis, outcome? As the member for South Perth and did not create a great deal of con- indicated, a matter can be completely troversy. Nevertheless, it has done a con- ignored. siderable amount of good. I will refer to some more of the findings later. During the debate onl the Address-in- The Minister for Industrial Development Reply I drew attention to a rather dis- said there were ample opportunities for turbing position in relation to an appli- private members to bring matters before cation for a license for a "C"-class hos- Parliament. I do not think that is so. It pital at Carlisle. The person concerned is true that we have almost unrestricted was told by the Health Department, when rights in the asking of questions; but some- he made tentative inquiries, that he could times the answers are so vague or so de- not build a hospital on the site he had in liberately confusing that the asking of mind. Therefore he went to a lot of trouble questions becomes completely hopeless. I and expense in selecting and puichasing have asked questions in this house and another site only to find later that a "C"- have taken the matters up with the de- class hospital is to be built on the site partments through correspondence, but for which he could not obtain a I have got nowhere. licensie. The reason approval had been granted since he had made inquiries was The Minister for industrial Develop- that pressure had been brought to bear by ment also said that private mnembers; have a Federal member of Parliament. the right to speak on grievance day, but he must know that these debates take place The man who had first applied stated only once a fortnigaht. only two speakers his case in writing and I raised the matter from each side of the House are permitted in this House, yet nothing has been done. to speak on each grievance day, and they Indeed, the answers to the last series of are allowed a maximum of 10 minutes each. questions I asked were particularly So if we have 12 weeks in this part of the evasive. I asked whether this fellow had parliamentary session, that will make mnade an application and I was told that available to private members six grievance no application for a license had been re- days. This means that a total of 12 ceived. Of course, I was at fault for speakers from each side of the House will wrongly phrasing my question. I should be given the right to speak, and that have asked whether this man had gone number represents only a bare half of into the office and spoken to one of the those on this side who have a right to put clerks; because he did go into the office forward grievances. There is certainly not and spoke to Mr. Dunstan. The Commis- a lack of members to take advantage of sioner of Health knows this, and he knows this opportunity to speak for 10 minutes on that the man spoke to Mr. Dunstan be- grievance day. Whilst this is a well cause he has a copy of the letter I read in [Wednesday, 11 September, 1968.] 1059

Parliament during the debate on the has said in contradiction to his own in- Address-in-Reply, But the question was structions. Is this the way to ruh a Gov- evaded. I also asked- ernment department? Is not an injustice (4) Did a representative of Carlisle being done? Could not an ombudsman in- Hospital Pty. Ltd. later make a dicate that the Person concerned needs personal application to conduct some attention from his Minister? Could such a hospital on the same site? not the Minister admonish him and bring him into line? Surely we The answer was 'An application was re- are not going to be frightened to take action? But that is ceived." Why was not the answer, "Yes"? what because is happening. Individuals are a personal representative did make frightened to open their mouths. an application. I know who he was and to whom he made the application, and when Mr. Runciman: Members of Parliament he made it. Yet the person concerned tried can say things, too, to their Ministers. to dodge the question, because he did not Mr. DAVIES: I agree with the honour- want the matter to blow up. The same able member. applies On a number of occasions to the rest of the series of ques- I have told Ministers that certain things tions I asked. should be done. This is the kind of result we get when The Point is that we like to pretend we we try to expose things in Parliament. are very democratic; but in actual prac- Someone has been done an injustice. It tice this is not always so. Shortcomings is too late to right the wrong now, but we do occur and occasions do arise when we want an assurance that this sort of thing should have an additional avenue of ap- will not happen again. Why should a peal. The member for South Perth spoke Federal or State member of Parliament about law courts and said it was hardly have any special privileges not allowed to fair because many people did not have the an ordinary citizen? That is the situation finance available to enable them to go to with regard to the case to which I have court. This, indeed, is so. just referred; but we will not get any fur- ther with it. I do not suppose the fellow My idea of an ombudsman is not that will ever make another application, so the he will be a man who is going to stand situation is not likely to arise again. like a big brother over the whale of the Government service, including members of What happens whenever we start to Parliament. I am not frightened to have criticise a Government department? A him standing over me as a member of representative of the Government is on his Parliament; and I am not frightened to feet in a flash saying that they are good face anyone in connection with my actions and loyal civil servants. However, the as a member of Parliament.. I am sure Government overlooks the fact that some- that everyone feels exactly the same. We times these civil servants are not as good have nothing about which to be frightened; or as loyal as they pretend to be. but occasions do arise when we know in- The member for South Perth quoted justices have been done and we know they some differences he has had with the Milk should be righted. Surely we should supply Board. I have had the same experience the avenue through which these injustices with that particular board. As a matter of can be righted! fact, I have even had complaints from As I have already said, I think we should some members of the staff of the board, remember that an ombudsman would be but none of them will come into the open. dealing only with State Government mat- They are all frightened of victimisation. ters. The member for Mirrabooka went to One member who has since had his ser- considerable lengths to quote matters with vices terminated has spoken to me about which he has dealt. I do not know whether the position, but even he does not want he thought he was alone in dealing with anything done. They are all frightened to matters of this nature. However, the sub- move. What is the good of making com- jects about which he spoke included a plaints? How will we get ani inquiry? Is TV set, taxation, immigration, social ser- the man responsible going to be allowed vices, and the Repatriation Department.' I to continue to rule with a rod of iron and jotted those items down as he was speak- be inflexible? If an ombudsman were ap- ing. However, I would Point out to the pointed, the matter could be taken to him honourable member that an ombudsman anonymously, as far as the general public would not have any power with regard to is concerned, but the ombudsman would those matters, because they concern pri- certainly know- vate matters or Commonwealth matters. Mr. Runciman: How would you expect We have no Jurisdiction to appoint anyone the ombudsman to deal with a situation to inquire into Commonwealth conditions. like that? I think we should get the facts quite Mr. DAVIES: In this instance I could clear. Our ombudsman would have power supply him with letters which have been in connection only with the State Civil circulated by the head of this department Service, the State Government, and asso- as to what should be done. I could then ciated boards. We do not intend to take the witnesses to the ombudsman to stipulate now how he shall be appointed, indicate what the head of the department who he shall be, what his salary shall be, (ASSEMBLY.] or what his powers shall be. All those mat- Mr. DAVIES: No, I do not think so. This ters can be worked out in due course. I is certainly not the situation described in was very amused, to say the least, to hear the book from which I have already the member for Narrogin say that the New quoted. Incidentally, I do not suggest Zealand Ombudsman cost $28,000 a Year. that members take this book home to read That is chicken feed. I do not care if he in bed. I have tried it myself, and, costs $30,000. The member for Narrogin although it is interesting, it is a bit heavy went on to say that this figure worked out to hold up. If members were to study this at about $500 or $600 for each case book they would discover that in all except investigated. one of the countries in which ombudsmen operate, only one ombudsman has been Mr. Runciman: He is surely not worth necessary and in each case he has been more than you are? eminently successful. Mr. DAVIES: I doubt it, but that is a I will conclude my remarks by quoting matter of opinion. The ideal situation one or two paragraphs concerning each of would be if we were to appoint an Ombuds- the countries involved. The first one is man, and he had nothing to do. If any- Denmark in which country the ombuds- one wanted to complain to him he would man was appointed about 1955. At the be there for this purpose. However, if conclusion of the facts concerning each of be had nothing to do it would indicate the countries the author has made some that our civil servants were 100 per cent. observations. On Page 45, he says of the efficient and that everyone was working to position in Denmark- perfection, and no funny business was taking place. This would be the ideal 'The Ombudsman is squeezing the position. arrogance out of government," said a prominent social scientist. "Decisions Mr. Bovell: You are reflecting on the are quicker all down the line," said an civil servants. attorney. "The Ombudsman is a Mr. DAVIES: I am not. safety valve and all of us feel more satisfied than we did before," said the Mr. Hovel!: Oh yes you are. head of a major women's organization. Mr. DAVIES: I am saying they are all "The civil service exercises power human. I am not reflecting on them, but more justly, it is prompter, Its methods they are human. The Minister knows as are fairer," said a business leader. well as I do that some of them might be They were some of the comments, and inclined- it is generally agreed by the author that Mr. Brand: Are you implying that an whilst the Ombudsman in Denmark is no ombudsman would be perfect to the point panacea, as he says, for the cure of Gov- of being inhuman? ernment ills, the greatest injustice to the the last thing we ombudsman would be to regard him as Mr. DAVIES: That is the Possessor of a cure-all. This is so. would want. We would not want him to H-owever, be inhuman at all. We would want him we want a man with special to be a very human person who could qualifications who can be most human. understand the problems brought to him, The position in regard to Finland was, whether they were brought to him by a as I have said, dealt with at some con- crank or merely a dissatisfied person. An siderable length by the Minister for In- ombudsman would have avenues through dustrial Development. The Ombudsman which he could deal with all these matters. in Finland has been in operation for some All the evidence brought forward in this considerable time and therefore ample debate so far points to the fact that in opportunity has existed to assess his value connection with the majority of cases sub- or otherwise. On page 89, the author mitted to ombudsmen no action is taken. says-- However, the aggrieved persons feel satis- Witb little to distract him, the Om- fled because their complaints have been budsman can concentrate on citizens' investigated at the highest possible level. complaints and in doing so he doubt- lessly performs a valuable social func- Mr. Brand: Would we not have the prob- tion. lem that where no satisfaction is gained pressure would be brought to bear for the I am not trying to take these quotations appointment of another ombudsman? out of context, but I am trying to pick out the most pertinent points. Of the Mr. DAVIES: I think that is carrying it New Zealand Ombudsman, the author a little to extremes. For my part, If I had says on page 152- submitted a Problem of a constituent to New Zealand's Ombudsman has an ombudsman, that would be the end of been a striking Personal success. True, it. I do not think we are going to have he has not won over all unbelievers, ombudsmen inquiring into ombudsmen ad among whom are a few Powerful infinitum. figures in the House of Representa- Mr. Brand: Yes you will, because this tives; but, on the other hand, some will follow. previously skeptical members have [Wednesday, 11 September, 1968.] 1061

more recently suggested that his should be appointed in Western Australia. power should be extended. Both If there has been a need for a parliamen- major parties have thus far supported tary commissioner or ombudsman to be him strongly, and he is distinctly not appointed in Britain, surely exactly the a "political issue." same need applies in Western Australia. I1 think it was somewhere else in that This is a matter which should be well chapter on New Zealand where I read and truly looked at, and considered that the Civil Service had welcomed the favourably by the Government. I am dis- appointment of such a person. appointed that members of the Country Party do not propose to vote for it. I do Norway has been dealt with at some not know how they will have the gall to length; but the comment on page 192 is-- face their members and say, "This i~s what The Norwegian Ombudsman seems you decided in democratic conference, but to have enjoyed considerable initial it is no good telling us to vote for it in approval. This is not because Nor- Parliament, because we are not going to: wegian public administration was an we are going to make up our own minds." Augean stable awaiting Hercules, in the person of Andreas Schel. I like to think I represent a party which certainly observes all the democratic pro- That apparently is the name of the person cesses with regard to the formulation of appointed. To continue- its policy. I have already said that the Norwegian government was in Labor Party prints the full proceedings of the main so efficient,, so fair, and so both Federal and State conferences. The well intentioned that the Ombudsman Labor Party is prepared to print its plat- has had to deal only with occasional form policy and let the world know exactly aberrations instead of with major what it stands for. It will sell copies to anybody who wants to pay $1 or 50c- deficiencies beyond his capabilities. whatever the price might be-over the What he has done, he has done well. counter at the Trades Hall. I am pleased His suggestions have produced better to say that we let the world know what results than would otherwise have we stand for. occurred In some scores of individual cases, and have presumably stimulated However, when another party has what administrative self-improvement that we presume is a democratic conference is incalculably important. and the conference expresses an item as a matter of policy and it cannot get support That clearly discloses that one of the from its Parliamentary members, then I more recent appointees-that is, the can only say that the parliamentary mem- Ombudsman in Norway-has done exactly bers must be a disappointment to the what I would imagine an ombudsman ap- Country Party. pointed in Western Australia would do. I remember a letter which was written The summary on the person appointed in by a great Country Party' man and a great Sweden is given on Page 255. It reads letter writer. I refer to Hugh Henderson as follows:- who was at Dudinin and who is now at For one who thinks in American Gosnells, He rapidly went into print and terms, the ombudsman system seems wanted to know what the Country Party a useful device for achieving inter- was there for, if it did not put into effect stitial reforms, for somewhat coun- the items decided at the conference, or tering the impersonality, the insensi- take some action on them. tivity, the automaticity of bureau- Mr. W. A. Manning: We have a very cratic methods, and for discouraging great regard for the interests of our elec- official arrogance. tors. This is exactly what we want to do. We Mr. DAVIES: Of course the whole Par- want to feel that the little man is getting liamentary system is based on the party a fair go and has someone to turn to system. While that continues I consider other than his member of Parliament who that if a member comes into Parliament may or may not be able to assist him. I purporting to represent a party-whether do not think it is taking any work at all it is Liberal, Labor, Country Party, D.L.P., away from a member of Parliament. In- or Communist-he has to expound the deed I am sure the ombudsman would policies of that party. I have already ex- want to know that every possible avenue pressed my disappointment and, I am sure, had been explored before the matter was what must be a disappointment to many taken to him. supporters of the Country Party in the fact that a party can have a conference, Because so many countries are now decide something, and the People who are seeing the advantage of such an appoint- supposed to represent the party will not ment; because those countries are support the decision. It must surely be a democratically governed; because the disappointment. British ombudsman has been so successful: and because our Parliamentary system is, I believe that from time to time in- in the main, based on the British parlia- Justices occur, either intentionally or mentary system. I consider an ombudsman otherwise, within. the Civil Service, and also [COUNCIL.] that there are restrictions on the man- QlUESTIONS (8). ON NOTICE ner in which they can be exposed under CANNING HIGHWAY our present system of government. I am MEDIAN STRIP of the opinion that a single person in the Traffic Hazard form of an ombudsman or a parliamentary any 1. The Hon. J. DOLAN asked the Minis- commissioner would do away with ter for Mines: concern which exists regarding injustices be imagined or (1) Has the Minister's attention been -whether they turn out to drawn to the traffic hazard oc- otherwise, casioned by a median strip at the I do not think a coinmittee should be junction of Thelma Street, Barker appointed to handle it. It has been sug- Avenue, and Canning Highway, gested that a committee of parliament- CDo? arians should be appointed but, surely, this (2) If so, what action is being taken would be an appeal from Caesar to Caesar. to remove this danger? If a standing committee were appointed it would be necessary to appoint an office The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH replied: staff to go with it. As a member of Par- (1) Construction work is at present liament, I certainly do not know how I in progress at this site for the could spend much time on such a com- installation of traffic signals, and mittee, even if I were appointed to it;, no additional hazard exists other because my time is already taken up with than that which may be expected the individual queries which I handle per- at any construction site. Proper sonally. signing of the works has been The evidence is that public feeling is undertaken, and observation by directed towards supporting the motion motorists of these signs allows safe for the appointment of an ombudsman. I negotiation of the section. most strongly support it. (2) The installation will be com- on motion by Mr. pleted as soon as possible, al- Debate adjourned, though some delay has been ex- Brand (Premier). perienced in completion of surfac- Rouse adjourned at 9.52 p.m. ing and marking of the roadway due to wet weather.

CONSTITUTION ACTS AMENDMENT ACT ifiegiulattur Ql50nudl simplification Thursday, the 12th September, 1968 2. The Hon. F. J. S. WISE asked the Minister for Mines: The PRESIDENT (The H-on. L. C. Diver) Will the Minister give considera- and read tion to having the Law Reform took the Chair at 2.30 P.M., Committee make a report to him pirayers. after a close examination of the Constitution Acts Amendment Act, QUESTION WITHOUT NOTICE 1899-1965, in Particular, with the SHIPPING view of bringing the Act more in line with the circumstances ob- Service to Onslow tamning in 1968 and to clarify and The Hon. H-. C. STRICKLAND asked simplify the verbiage used? the Minister for Mines: The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH replied: In order to avoid further cbkos, Yes, but Projects already approved worry, and expense to traders at for the Law Reform Committee Onslow, and producers in the will engage its attention for a con- Ashburtofl district, will the Gov- siderable period. It also occurs to ernment give urgent attention to me that so many important policy the provison of a regular shipping decisions of a political nature service to that port and Put a stop could be involved in implementing to the cancellation of scheduled the suggestion made that it may sailings w1hich cause great diffi- not be appropriate for the Law culties to the firms concerned? Reform Committee to handle the The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH replied: matter. I understand the honourable WORKERS' COMPENSATION member was good enough to give my colleague, the Minister for Industrial Deafness Transport, notice that he would 3. The Hon. R. H. C. STUBE5S asked the seek this information. I regret I Minister for Health: am unable to supply it this after- (1) Due to the hearing loss by miners noon, and I ask the honourable and other People in industry member to put the question on the caused by excessive noise in con- notice paper. nection with their work, will the