TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS CORONER'S COURT OF THE AUSTRALIAN CAPITAL TERRITORY MRS M. DOOGAN, CORONER CF No 154 of 2003 CANBERRA INQUEST AND INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF DOROTHY MCGRATH, ALLISON MARY TENNER, PETER BROOKE, AND DOUGLAS JOHN FRASER AND THE FIRES OF JANUARY 2003 DAY 50 Monday, 10 May 2004 .CF154/2003 10.05.04 4873 (c) WordWave Int'l [10.08am] THE CORONER: Just before we start, Ms Cronan, Mr Lakatos, I would like you to inquire of the 5 Chief Minister whether or not he wishes to return to this inquiry to give evidence about the contents of his letter to me of last Tuesday. I say that because the Chief Minister has been explaining his position to the media in various 10 interviews to the press. I wish to afford him the opportunity, if he wishes, to likewise explain or give some further evidence to this inquiry. In view of the evidence Mr Keady gave last Friday 15 and the Chief Minister's earlier comments, neither I nor counsel assisting see the need for Mr Stanhope to be recalled. But if he is of a different mind on the subject, then I am prepared to accommodate him. I would appreciate it if you 20 could make those inquiries and let me know, please Mr Lakatos. MR LAKATOS: That will be done. I should say that Mr Lasry gave the same offer to me and Mr Johnson 25 last week. I rather thought we conveyed what we thought was the position. That apparently is not so. We will pass it on and ask the question again. 30 THE CORONER: Thank you. Yes, Ms Cronan. MS CRONAN: I call Nicholas Lhuede. <NICHOLAS AUBIN RENE LHUEDE, AFFIRMED 35 <EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS CRONAN MS CRONAN: Q. Would you please tell the Court your full name? 40 A. Nicholas Aubin Rene Lhuede. Q. Your current occupation? A. I am the fire management officer with Environment ACT. 45 Q. What is your professional address? A. Level 1 MacArthur House, Lyons. .CF154/2003 10.05.04 4874 N.A.R. LHUEDE X (c) WordWave Int'l MS CRONAN Q. You have made a statement in relation to this inquiry which is [ESB.AFP.0001.0231].This is a statement which has about 81 paragraphs and bears your signature on 8/12/2003. Have you had an 5 opportunity to go through that statement since you have signed it? A. Yes, I have. Q. Is there anything in that statement that you 10 now wish to alter or to correct before you give evidence? A. Yes, there are a number of paragraphs I would like to change. 15 Q. Tell her Worship which paragraphs you would like to change. A. Go to paragraph 32. In that paragraph the incident action plan for the Gingera fire was actually produced by Felicity Grant in the 20 planning team not myself as may be implied. Q. What is next? A. Paragraph 43, the next incident action plan I prepared for the Stockyard/Gingera fire was 25 finalised on the 15th. I commenced planning on the 12th but it was finalised on the 15th. Paragraph 51 at 7.30am not "PM". Paragraph 61, the Stockyard Gingera fire I believe merged on the 30 15th not the 16th, as I have stated. Paragraph 65, I would like to omit the words in the first sentence from: "In light of the abandonment of the proposed back-burn off Lick 35 Hole Road and Leura Gap trail". In paragraphs 66, 67, 68 and 69, the meeting where we discussed the prediction of where the fire would reach was actually on the Friday the 17th, 40 the evening meeting on that night. I believe Mr Gellie offered an opinion at that meeting that it could reach the urban interface by 6 o'clock. 45 Q. On Friday the 17th? A. Yes. That was at that afternoon meeting. .CF154/2003 10.05.04 4875 N.A.R. LHUEDE X (c) WordWave Int'l MS CRONAN Q. Any further corrections? A. They are the ones that I am aware of. I think it is correct now. 5 Q. We will go through the statement. Before we start, you also participated in a taped record of conversation with Constable Mark Travers on 13 February earlier this year? A. That's correct. 10 Q. That is at [DPP.DPP.0007.0332]. Have you similarly gone through the transcript of that record of conversation before coming to court? A. Yes, I have been through that. 15 Q. Is there anything in that document you would like to alter or correct? A. No, nothing that I am aware of. 20 Q. You say in paragraph 5 of your statement that at the time of the January 2003 fires you were employed by the Environment ACT as the fire management officer with ACT Parks and Conservation Service. You were appointed to that position in 25 September of 2002. Before that you had employment with New South Wales State Forests for 7 to 8 years in a range of roles. The last 4 or 5 years were focused on 30 harvesting planning management of native forests on the New South Wales north coast. Could you outline in slightly more detail what roles you did perform when you were working with the New South Wales State Forests? 35 A. My last job before I came to the ACT was as harvest planning manager in north-east region. That involved the planning and scheduling of harvesting operations in native forests in the plantations for the north-east region in New South 40 Wales State Forests. That was my primary duty. However, fire and fire suppression activities were also a core part of my duties. They took priority when fires did occur. I was involved in fire suppression, fire management activities as 45 required. Q. Over what kind of period were you involved in .CF154/2003 10.05.04 4876 N.A.R. LHUEDE X (c) WordWave Int'l MS CRONAN fire suppression activities, was it the whole 7 to 8 years? A. Yes, at differing levels. 5 Q. When you say "at differing levels", could you outline sequentially what involvement you had with fire suppression? A. In my first position when I was based at Bombala - my first position at Bombala, quite 10 limited duties there because there weren't many fires in the period. But I was involved in stand- up and some suppression activities whilst employed at Bombala. I was two years there. 15 Then I moved to Bulahdelah district. Again harvest planning role. Whilst there I was involved in some prescribed burned planning. I was involved in fire suppression activities. A number of quite small fires that were suppressed 20 quickly but also a number of larger interagency fires did occur in that period that I was involved in at a planning level and initially incident control level. 25 Q. So what period are you talking about at that stage? A. That would have been about 1997 when I was there. 30 Q. Just for the one year? A. I was there for a couple of years. I think there was one or two big fires in that period and a number of smaller ones that I was involved in. After working in Bulahdelah, I was in Newcastle 35 for a year. I recall I had fairly limited involvement in fires at that stage and then moved to Coffs Harbour where I was there for two-and-a-half years. Each of the years I was there, we had quite active fire seasons in and 40 around Coffs Harbour. While there I fulfilled a number of functions, including divisional commander and also planning on the Incident Management Team for some 45 section 44 fires. So there was quite extensive involvement. Two of those fire seasons did run probably for a period of six weeks, I suppose, and .CF154/2003 10.05.04 4877 N.A.R. LHUEDE X (c) WordWave Int'l MS CRONAN during that period that was a fairly significant focus of my activities. Q. So you were involved in a planning role in 5 fires being managed by the New South Wales Rural Fire Service over that period? A. Yes. That's correct. Yes. Q. Did you have incident control system training 10 at that stage? A. I had received AFAC 404 training. I can't recall when, but it was some time in my period while working at Coffs Harbour. 15 Q. The AFAC 404 training, what does that involve? A. It looks at incident management, looking at the roles and functions of the positions within an Incident Management Team. 20 Q. So you have had experience over the eight- year period from the range of activities from crew member, RAFT crew member up into the Incident Management Team level? A. Yes, that's correct, although I actually never 25 did a RAFT fire when I walked in. Most fires with the State Forests are vehicle based, but in essence, yes. Q. Before you came to Canberra you had no RAFT 30 experience? A. I had actually done RAFT training with State Forests. That would have been in the mid-'90s. In terms of actual fighting of a RAFT fire with State Forests, it was rarely necessary because it 35 had quite an intensive road network as a result of the harvesting activity. So most fires were often vehicle and using heavy machinery. Very rarely did we walk into a fire in that distance and use hand tools.