Bartik & Holberton Interviewees
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Computer Oral History Collection, 1969-1973, 1977 Interviewees: Jean J. Bartik (1924-) and Frances E. (Betty) Snyder Holberton (1917-2001) Interviewer: Henry S. Tropp Date: April 27, 1973 Repository: Archives Center, National Museum of American History TROPP: This is a discussion with Betty Holberton and Betty Jean Bartik and the date is the 27th of April 1973. We are going to start off by talking about how both of these people got involved in ENIAC in terms of their arrival at the Moore School and the War work that they were connected with. And really, we're two of the first programmers on [an] electronic computer before the word was even coined. There wasn't even a word like program was there? HOLBERTON: Programmer ? BARTIK: I don't remember how the name got started. HOLBERTON: No. Our classification was called computer. TROPP: Computer. BARTIK: I was a mathematician. HOLBERTON: When we got to be P3s, or P2s. Our first job description is, is called computer, I looked it up just recently. [Laughter] TROPP: For additional information, contact the Archives Center at 202.633.3270 or [email protected] Computer Oral History Collection, 1969-1973, 1977 2 Jean J. Bartik and Frances E. (Betty) Snyder Holberton Interview, April 27, 1973, Archives Center, National Museum of American History Yea, well a computer, computer in that — HOLBERTON: Was a person who computes. TROPP: Was a person who did mathematical computation. A computer was not a machine in that time era, computer was a human being. HOLBERTON: It was a job classification then. They had a hole. I remember that very vividly when we took that job. The first thing that Goldstine says, "Your grades won't be, won't be decreased because you are going to be working on a machine." The idea of a machine, you know, was a low-grade something or other. Because I remember asking that question. TROPP: Mhm. When you, when you first came to the Moore School though, it was for what purpose? HOLBERTON: When I first came to the Moore School, I had been working at Farm Journal Magazine and all of my family had joined the Service. I had two sisters in the Waves and I wanted to join the Waves but I wasn't accepted because of my eyes. I saw an ad in the, in the Philadelphia papers, they needed girls to do mathematics and they would train you. So I applied and then I got about three or four other of my friends from college and they applied and that's how I got in. TROPP: And you were a mathematician originally? BARTIK: I was a math major, which — TROPP: At, at where? For additional information, contact the Archives Center at 202.633.3270 or [email protected] Computer Oral History Collection, 1969-1973, 1977 3 Jean J. Bartik and Frances E. (Betty) Snyder Holberton Interview, April 27, 1973, Archives Center, National Museum of American History BARTIK: I was just a graduate from college. TROPP: From, from which — BARTIK: Mhm. BARTIK: And I didn't want to teach school and I wanted to get out of Missouri. So one of my teachers came along and told me that the Government was looking for mathematicians and that she thought I might be interested in it. And she said, "It's located at the University of Pennsylvania" and she said, "Boy, that's a good place to go because they have one differential analyzer there, and there are not very many of them, and that's an exciting place to go, and I think you should apply." So I applied and I got a telegram back saying "yes" because at that time, it was just before the end of World War II, and there weren't that many mathematicians around that weren't doing something. So I was twenty years old and I just jumped on the Wabash and came to Philadelphia. TROPP: The Wabash railroad is no longer in existence. [Laughter] BARTIK: The Wabash, oh yes it is. TROPP: Is it still in existence? BARTIK: Sure. The Wabash rail — railroad built the town that I grew up in. TROPP: For additional information, contact the Archives Center at 202.633.3270 or [email protected] Computer Oral History Collection, 1969-1973, 1977 4 Jean J. Bartik and Frances E. (Betty) Snyder Holberton Interview, April 27, 1973, Archives Center, National Museum of American History Which is? BARTIK: Stanberry, Missouri. TROPP: Stingray? BARTIK: Stanberry. TROPP: Oh, Stanberry. BARTIK: Yea, they laid out the town. TROPP: Well you, you had been there earlier then, Betty? HOLBERTON: Oh yes. I joined when they first opened to the first group that came on board and — TROPP: Was that in '42? HOLBERTON: 1942, yes. The summer of '42, right. TROPP: And you were doing ballistics calculation? HOLBERTON: For additional information, contact the Archives Center at 202.633.3270 or [email protected] Computer Oral History Collection, 1969-1973, 1977 5 Jean J. Bartik and Frances E. (Betty) Snyder Holberton Interview, April 27, 1973, Archives Center, National Museum of American History I took, actually we, they gave us this quick math, brush up for three months in mathematics where I had, you know, mathematics eight hours a day, six days a week. That's how I learned calculus, you know, all the way through, in, in, you know, like it was a month, I guess, of calculus. Like that. TROPP: Some differential equations? HOLBERTON: That's right. The rest of it was a review for me, but I had never had calculus so that was new. TROPP: Mhm. HOLBERTON: And so I got started with the first group. TROPP: Well, the first group included, I guess, about five or six of you? Do you remember who some of the people were? HOLBERTON: Oh, there were more than five or six. There were more like twenty. TROPP: Like twenty? HOLBERTON: More like twenty. I think that there were some who were working that you were referring to, the five or six who didn't have to take the course who already had graduate degrees in mathematics, which I was not. TROPP: Mhm. For additional information, contact the Archives Center at 202.633.3270 or [email protected] Computer Oral History Collection, 1969-1973, 1977 6 Jean J. Bartik and Frances E. (Betty) Snyder Holberton Interview, April 27, 1973, Archives Center, National Museum of American History HOLBERTON: I was a journalist. But there were at least twenty in our class and I think the other five or six became the supervisors of us who came in as, as beginners. Well, the first thing that you worked on then, were, were those the ballistics calculations that John Mauchly has told me about where each of the HOLBERTON: Oh yes, oh yes. TROPP: Individuals had sheets of calculations? HOLBERTON: We not only had sheets, but we also worked, we worked two shifts, from 8 to 4 and from 4 to 1. And the girl who started and sat at the desk with another one on the opposite shift worked on the same trajectory when things really got tough. In other words, you'd stop on one line and the girl would pick up and proceed on the same, on the same trajectory computation. This was done very often when we really had a crash job to do. This kept going for sixteen hours a day. TROPP: Mhm. And these were strictly what? Pencil and paper or Marchant type — HOLBERTON: Oh, we had Marchants too, we could, you know, do that stuff in our sleep. TROPP: Well, when you got there this would have been — BARTIK: This was March 1945. TROPP: For additional information, contact the Archives Center at 202.633.3270 or [email protected] Computer Oral History Collection, 1969-1973, 1977 7 Jean J. Bartik and Frances E. (Betty) Snyder Holberton Interview, April 27, 1973, Archives Center, National Museum of American History In 1945 that whole environment then had pretty much changed, because by '45 ENIAC was almost ready to go, wasn't it? HOLBERTON: Well, we didn't know about it. It was a very close kept secret. We didn't know a thing about it. Until they called for volunteers to do something, they didn't quite tell us what. BARTIK: That's right. In fact I came there and this group was really buzzing right along. There must have been 50 to 75 people there and I came as a very young, inexperienced worker and I saw that sitting there running a calculator wasn't going to get me anywhere and besides it was kind of dull, so when the .. request was made for people to volunteer to work on the ENIAC I didn't know what it was, didn't have any idea, but I had enough confidence in my own ability that if I could get on the ground floor in some area that I could do very well, so — [Laughter] HOLBERTON: I think the one reason there weren't too many volunteers at that time, because we had to say at that time, as I recall, that we would move to Aberdeen, BARTIK: Yes. HOLBERTON: And there weren't too many people who were willing to do that. [Laughter] BARTIK: That's right. HOLBERTON: I think that was one of the reasons we got so lucky, I mean there weren't that many people who wanted to do that kind of thing, go to Aberdeen. TROPP: Well, when you first came to the Moore School, the calculations that you were doing were under the, at least overall supervision of Mauchly weren't they? For additional information, contact the Archives Center at 202.633.3270 or [email protected] Computer Oral History Collection, 1969-1973, 1977 8 Jean J.